I smell a fatwa being issued.

I do believe we call this "preaching to the converted." How long before the liberal press snowplow this and the fatwas start flying?

a muslim with a conscience?

OK, not even noon in Cali and Charles has up 10 threads!

We salute you, Mr. Lizard King! (and have a **tiny** chance of actually following all of them!)

...in this generation the alternative of nonviolent struggle is a more effective weapon.

I doubt he'll find many takers in the Muslim world for this way of thinking. Not with the overwhelming emphasis on "humiliation" and the attendant desire to redress it.

I have adopted this perception and called it by the Islamic name ‘Civil Jihad.’

"Civil Jihad." Exactly.

Memo to the Islamists:

If you sow the wind you will reap the whirlwind.

(We can wipe out your world in 10 minutes if we wanted to - don't ever forget that)

i just read this over at jihad watch now when are we going to see this guy on orielly or [ugh] larry king if you visit dhimmi watch theres a good article on a win for the good guys it seems over the past few years a textbook has been out in canada and the us that claims columbus upon meeting the algonquin discovered they were muslims charles how about a thread on a win for the good guys

#7 Actually, ICBM flight time is about 35 minutes from Omaha to Mecca and Tehran...

The deafening silence of the muslim majority here in the United States says it all to me.

Loyalty is to the ummah first, as the Quran says. So caught up in the idea of anything non-Muslim being a supposed "humiliation", I think quite a few of them would like to turn to the tables and vent their frustrations w/ violence and repression.

No one is going to really say it openly, though. At least CAIR is honest about their intentions in wanting the US to be under sharia law! The fact that no one really speaks out against them though, again, speaks volumes.

But then the Quran condones lying to the infidels, doesn't it?

the Muslims will [only] lose by their adherence to the perception [advocating] violence. This is due first of all to the military supremacy of others, and second because in this generation the alternative of nonviolent struggle is a more effective weapon. I have adopted this perception and called it by the Islamic name ‘Civil Jihad.’"

I wish I could agree with that first sentence. Indiscriminate violence seems to be working pretty well for the jihadis. And military supremace of others is pretty worthless when the will to use that supremacy effectively is not present.

Mr. Kishtainy is one seriously brave individual, though.

One hopes that this brave man has round-the-clock protection and a few good safe houses at his disposal...

#7 Actually, ICBM flight time is about 35 minutes from Omaha to Mecca and Tehran...

How about from Trident missile sub?

This person better be using a false name, because the death threats are on the way. People who speak truth like this are the Islamists greatest enemy.

Re #2:

How is it "preaching to the converted"? Kishtainy published his article in an Arabic language newspaper in London -- not in the New Republic or the Wall Street Journal or somewhere like that.

Re #8:

The Algonquin/Arabic textbook issue was already on the front page at 10:23 AM.

I place on the Islamic intellectuals and leaders of Islamic organizations part of the responsibility for [this phenomenon] of Islamic terrorism, as nearly all of them advocate violence, and repress anyone who casts doubts upon this.

Why fault them for teaching what the Koran says? Why spread this violent poison through "civil jihad?" The Hitler Youth spread their ideology through peaceful means, does that make them any less wrong or dangerous?

#9 M. Murcek: What's the flight time from the Persian Gulf or Mediterranean?

#1 BIG

I think you mean "fatwa**s**"

The top imam of every **county** will feel compelled to seethe here ...

This guy better speak to Rushdie about living under wraps (and the very fact that he will be under threat for saying this is ipso facto **proof** that it truly is the RoP**MA**)

I place on the Islamic intellectuals and leaders of Islamic organizations part of the responsibility for [this phenomenon] of Islamic terrorism, as nearly all of them advocate violence, and repress anyone who casts doubts upon this.

Gosh, isn't this a variation on what many of us in the West have been saying all along?

Of course it is.

The Leftoids have buried their heads in the sand and have their butts in the air, all in a position to accept the screwing a their lives - or should I say, the last screwing of their lives?

Best of luck to you, Mr. Kishtainy. I won't hold my breath, since some figure we're facing about 270 million suicide bombing fans. Dunno if I buy it, though. Sounds low to me.

#13 Seismic

Trident in the Indian Ocaen? Certainly closer to 10 than 35 ...
:-)

#15 Joshua

I was speaking in terms of those of us here at LGF, who've known alot of this for awhile. Not as in the audience that was more likely to read it. The only converted there are those RoPers who change into seething masses when the "truth" is questioned.

"There are moderate muslims but there is no such thing as moderate Isalm"

OT.... J. effin Kerry losing it again

PITTSBURGH (Reuters) - Democratic presidential challenger John Kerry (news - web sites), lashing out at the White House's "twisted sense of ethics and morality," accused Republicans on Friday of distorting his record and attacking his patriotism.

Kerry, a decorated Vietnam War veteran, pointed out Vice President Dick Cheney (news - web sites) and political adviser Karl Rove did not serve in the military.

"I'm tired of Karl Rove and Dick Cheney and a bunch of people who went out of their way to avoid their chance to serve when they had the chance," Kerry said. "I'm not going to listen to them talk to me about patriotism."

Can anyone, anyone find any quotes from Cheney or Rove that questions Kerry's "patriotism"???

The man has gone round the bend because of a new GW ad that has Kerry himself sayings "I voted for the bill, before I voted against it." in reference to the voting for the Iraq war then voting to defund the troops.

Plus this sorry piece of work is running full tilt on his four months in Vietnam (which then, in his fevered universe, makes him beyond the bounds of criticism).

#1

A fatwhat?

us.

eme: Most Islamic Ideologues, Organization Leaders Advocate Violence.

Of course, this comes as no surprise to us! How morally wrong it is that almost every government leader mouths the words, "tiny minority"

Look at the spin of the State Department just because yesterday Bush had the courage and boldness to speak the truth (well sort of) concerning Gaza and West Bank. Today look, everyone is walking on egg shells with our peaceful muslims making all kinds of false assumptions and predicting negative outcomes.

Oh my we must treat our arab neighbors with kid gloves even at the expense of Israel. Even if it is wrong.

What a dangerous path we walk in the effort to whitewash truth.

He's a racist!

Iraqis don't understand peace and they don't understand non-violence. They understand the language of the beat-down. This is the restive period for Iraqis- between licking Sadaam's boots, and licking the boots of their next conqueror. The sooner the US quits trying to be gentle and compassionate and starts exerting overwhelming decisive force, the sooner our problems in Iraq will be over.

Sorta OT: Allah has posted the most hilarious photos today. Highly recommended!

Allah-funny photos, etc...

Allahu Akbar!

In any fair contest between Christianity and Islam, Christianity will win. You're pitting a religion of love and forgiveness against one of hate and intolerance.

Keep trying to convert the hardcore prison inmates, Islamonazis. You'll find a more receptive audience there.

#13,17 I couldn't say exactly. I got the 35 minute figure from a trip to the Titan Missile Museum in Green Valley, Arizona. A sign in the launch control room said:

"We guarantee delivery in 35 minutes or your next one is free."

Actually the first one is free. American taxpayers are generous, and we spare no expense in designing and building only the finest in nuclear ordnance.

RoP better figure out how to dissuade us from waking up one day in a giving mood...

darleen

Its the 'boo-hoo' public sympathy gambit, he's learned his lessons well from sponsoring dictators. very impressive, maybe he should run for Iraq pres., i'd even vote for him....but only if he leaves today.

#29 writermom

In that link there was another link to the independent, an article about rabid loonies here in Britain :

[Link: news.independent.co.uk...]

Frightening. These are people willing to state their mind. What about the others who are covert, plotting ?

In my opinion, the sword played a minor role in Islam’s triumph over polytheism.

Your opinion is wrong, sir.

Murcek et al.

The only difference between 10 min and 35 min is how many "there is no god but Allah"'s they can get out during the countdown

#33 JohninLondon

That article is a classic. Britain is chock full of freaks.

But who am I to talk? I'm in multiCULT Canada.

I love this part:

The attack on the Twin Towers; the train bombings in Madrid; the discovery of ammonium nitrate: these are just three of the reasons why Islam is being demonised by sections of the British media.

Umm-perhaps Islam is being demonized because their behaviour is demonic?

The Koran speaks for itself, grotesquely enough.

[Link: rationalthinking.humanists.net...]

”In my opinion, the sword played a minor role in Islam’s triumph over polytheism. Moreover, the Muslims will [only] lose by their adherence to the perception [advocating] violence. This is due first of all to the military supremacy of others, and second because in this generation the alternative of nonviolent struggle is a more effective weapon. I have adopted this perception and called it by the Islamic name ‘Civil Jihad.’"

Well tell that to the tens of millions of Zoroastrians and Hindus who were massacred in the name of allah, their lands seized and the survivors made a subject class in their own countries.

So the sword does not work anymore. Yes it doesnt, not in Islam's favour anyway. So the good moderate muslim is trying another tack, the 'civil jihad'. Get the kaffirs lulled, increase the population till great in numbers and strong, then unleash the sword again. Such a strategy has been laid out by their prophet and leader. Fool me once.....

Note that Kishtainy has nothing to say about Mohamed himself or the crystal clear instructions to kill in the koran.

#12 & #14

My first thought, "how is it this guy is still alive"?

Sorry to be OT again, but its hard not to use ya'll as a resource when everyone here is so smart and well-informed...

Are there any references, ancient, modern, historical or otherwise, to a "Nation of Palestine" that aren't part of the "solution" to the Israeli-"Palestinian" conflict?

Do not all references to Palestine refer to the area and not a Nation?

He mentions toward the end of his article that he has been unsuccessful in his attempts to have his book published, and he would be willing to have it published for nothing. Wouldn't posting it on the internet meet that criterion? Once it was posted, they would play hell trying to put that genie back in the bottle.

Of course, he might have to bunk with Salman Rushdie.

#10, Superninja,

You are absolutely right about their silence being deafning! I keep telling the Muslim appeasers here, in Saudi Arabia, that until I see a huge demonstration of Muslims in the US or any other Western country condemning terrorism without using ifs and buts, I will not change my mind about them.
You are also right about their loyalty being to the ummah first. I am Venezuelan and my Embassy handles not just SA but also the Emirates, Bahrain and Oman. There are a fairly large number of Venezuelans registered with this Embassy. Most of them are of Syrian and Palestinian descent. Venezuela, as you probably know, is going through hard times trying to get rid of the rabidly anti-american and first rate demagogue, Chavez, who by the way, is very much admired here. I frequently answer our Embassador's letters about venezuela and ME politics and not a single one of these venezuelan-muslims ever issue a comment on the subject of the Venezuela Crisis. The only time that they manisfest themselves is when the Embassador touches on subjects like the Israel/Palestine conflict or the war in Iraq. Even the ones living in Venezuela could not care less about the fate of the country where they were born or have lived for most of their lives.

#40 Alex F

The Romans renamed Israel 'Palestinia' after the destruction of the second temple (some 600 years before Islam) and the term stuck. The term "Palestinian" was used under the British Mandate to describe anyone who lived there (Usually followed by either the modifier 'Jew' or 'Arab'. The use of 'Palestinian' to refer to Arab inhabitants of the region only came into widespread use after 1967.

#40 Alex F

A good source for info on that topic is here.

I heard Walid Shoebat at a Winnipeg Zionist Initiative lecture and he essentially said the same thing. For anyone who missed my post in yesterday's thread here's his video.

It was so enlightening and depressing at the same time. I am beginning to doubt my ideas that Islam can be peaceful, I mean seriously. I'm beginning to think Islam is some kind of pathology. I hope I'm wrong.

I used to fatwa frequently. I cut brussels sprouts out of my diet, and things are much better now.

#8 jimmytheclaw

I posted about muslim calims of discovering America before Columbus and then having to retract this nonsense after a protest by native Americans

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

#45 Judith

I'm beginning to think Islam is some kind of pathology

Like Jew-hatred.

I have had many coversations about politics with Muslims who are friends and colleagues and every one of them condemns violence and hates what the jihadis are doing to besmirch the name of Islam. Yet it is undeniable that Muslim organizations and religious leaders are almost always either sympathetic to violence or else keep their opposition silent. Rarely if ever do you hear forceful denunciations of violence from the pulpit. Rarely if ever do Muslim organizations unequivocally condemn terrorism.

So: am I being handed a load of bull by my Muslim acquaintances and in fact some portion of them are less moderate than they seem? Do I just know a very unrepresentative sample of Muslims? Or are the public faces of Islam - the clerics and the CAIR's of the world - unrepresentative of Muslims as a whole.

I tend to think that the crazies have intimidated people into silence. But that's clearly not the whole story.

Judith, Islam is a 'substance code' religion, almost like hinduism.

Hinduism is mostly pacifistic, however, where there's little incentive to change the world cause the world is unchangeable, and you as a person are unchangeable. The only hope is to be good and hope for a better ('higher') rebirth.

Islam is dynamic, on the other hand, demanding of (usually) violent expansion, but the hold it has on its adherents is just as tenacious - bred in the bone.

As a result we see a lot of immutables in Islam (there's no apostasy tolerated, no lands can be relinquished, non muslims are cosmologic inferiors, etc) which rationality cannot touch.

I remember way back, I took a course on death and dying in university, and a buddhist monk, rabbi, preist, and imam came in to tell us their various philosphies about death, heaven and hell.

I made a point of asking each one whether theri cosmology would allow for a righteous person of another faith to get to heaven. All except one answered in the affirmative, except one (guess who) who danced around the question and didn't answer.

Don't mean to be a pedant, but that really stuck with me.

Tell us something we don't know.

Great cartoon from a liberal:

For the Sake of our Children's future, we will not accept Israel's withrawl from the Gaza strip.

With the Israelis gone, who will our children blow up?

Bensons view

#33 JohninLondon's link reminded me of the bloodthirsty little scamps at Clear Guidance. I googled, and all I found was archived Blogspot entries. Has CG been nuked off the net? Good riddance, if so.

#49

The Koran specifically allows (demands) muslims to lie to kuffirs like you in order to advance the cause.

#55 Abu Jimbola

...and that cause ain't the United Jewish Appeal.

Imagine the sound of one hand being chopped off

By those wonderful folks who brought you Oil for Food...

I'm surprised that Charles hasn't posted a thread about the MAJOR cave-in: Bush saying that we're going to junk the governing Council in favor of a UN gang??

Of course Kishtainy is correct, Islam is a religion of violence, repression, murder and aggression. But he is most correct when he says:

the alternative of nonviolent struggle is a more effective weapon. I have adopted this perception and called it by the Islamic name ‘Civil Jihad.’"

The Palestinians could overwhelm Israel in a generation if they'd just remain and breed in place.

Immigration and breeding will cause the fall of Europe in 20 years by simple vote.

Is this Arab man a Muslim or an Arab Christian?

Anyone happen to be familar with him?

YOU'VE GOT TO READ THIS THREAD:

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

I can't freaking believe it. I've never posted anything here before, but I just had to after reading this thread at the “beeb” website. I figured I would find a receptive audience.

Europe is done. They've already given up. We're all that's left . . . It's very sobering.

OT:

Sneak Preview of Sharon's Disengagement Plan:

The disengagement plan of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon

A. The Gaza Strip

1.Israel will evacuate the Gaza Strip, including all the Israeli settlements currently existing there, and will redeploy outside the territory of the Strip. This, apart from military deployment along the border line between the Gaza Strip and Egypt ("Philadelphi Route"), will be detailed below.

2. Upon completion of the move, no permanent Israeli civilian or military presence in the areas that are evacuated in the continental expanse of the Gaza Strip will remain.

As a result, there will be no basis for the claim that the Gaza Strip is occupied territory.

B. Judea and Samaria

1. Israel will evacuate the area of northern Samaria (Ganim, Kadim, Homesh and Sa-Nur) and all the permanent military installations in this area, and will redeploy outside the evacuated area.

2. Upon completion of the move, no permanent presence of Israeli military forces and Israeli civilians in the area of northern Samaria will remain.

European Dishonor, Sharia on the Old Continent

[Link: freerepublic.com...]

And now the mezzuens call to prayer blaring out in Michigan.

OT,

I just nominated the Kadhr Family as the "Greatest Canadian" in the juvenile, self-serving, liberal-loving CBC contest in search of the "greatest" Canadian. Man, they just opened themsleves up to a nice big fat target.

Go ahead, take a stab at it!

EVERYBODY STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND PLEASE VIEW THIS MULTIMEDIA REPORT AT THE NEW YORK TIMES:

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

If this link doesn't work, please got to [Link: nytimes.com...] and click on the "interactive feature"

"The marines were really professional"

"The marines do not fire first"

"This is the first time I have covered the american side..."

Cant sem to find any interactive link for the NY Times.
And the direct link you gave, although I have a password doesnt work

You may need to repost an URL

This isnt very soothing to ME, This guy wants to use Non Violence as an effective WEAPON? And against who (or whom)? does he want Islam to use this weapon? Geeze..rather they use tactics that can be roundly condemned than to be as hateful , intend to destroy us, but not SEEM as hateful. Lets dont encourge them to employ PC Hate Activities. Cant fight that as effectively. Sorry.

If you just go to nytimes.com and click on the photo. This will not be up for long.

#33 JohninLondon

Actually, now that I've done more than skimmed over your link, I'm encouraged at how many PRO-WoT comments were posted. At the fricking BEEB, no less. All may not be lost.

#66 Shiksa Grrrl

The link is under the picture on the home page.

59 genard

Immigration and breeding will cause the fall of Europe in 20 years by simple vote.

Yes and the same will happen to America, Canada, Australia and the entire Western world. Its only a matter of when.

61 mnmike
Reading the comments, it seemed to me that the overwhelming majority of British respondents were for rejecting the bin Laden truce and going after hin in no uncertain terms. The ones who were all for negotiation, seemed to be 'British' Muslims. I dont think it is time to quit or give up on Europe. The war is only just beginning.

We will win for the simple reason, that the Secular state that we have constructed from the Protestant reformation is far too strong.

OT:

Regarding the proposed disengagement plan...

Can any Israeli minions clue me in as to where the towns of Ganim, Kadim, Homesh and Sa-Nur are? Those are the 3 communities mentioned by name in the Haaretz report...

Thanks in advance,

JaGV

#41 Ernie G.

What he needs is for Pipes, Horowitz, et. al. to either post his manuscript and/or work with him to hard copy publish it.

How could we get them in contact with each other????

#49 BPP,

"I tend to think that the crazies have intimidated people into silence. But that's clearly not the whole story"

That will only apply to muslims living in oppressive regimes like Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc.
If your friends are living in the States or anywhere in the West, they are feeding you a bunch of BS. If it is not BS, then is a clear example of their lack of integration into the host or culture of birth. Either way is bad news!

From Melanie Philips blog

Is Europe beginning to fight back?
'The European Parliament voted overwhelmingly yesterday that Turkey is unfit to join the EU, despite its punishing pace of reforms. The motion was a blow to countries such as Britain which have been pushing for Turkey to be given the go-ahead to join. In a heated debate, MEPs cited a long list of concerns, including torture, lack of democracy, imprisonment of political opponents, the influence of the Army, persecution of minorities including Kurds and Christians, fears that the EU would be overwhelmed by Turkish immigrants, and that Turkey’s membership would destroy the European Union

[Link: www.melaniephillips.com...]

This may disappoint the US State dept and the British Foreign Secretary but its one bit of good news.

#64 Doug

Not quite as much fun as the JfnKerry websites, but fun nonetheless.

I posted one in favor of the Khadrs in the name of my buddy Mike Hunt from the Yukon. It also seemed to take his hotmail addy.

See 64 for the link and have at it.

Scrappleface writes that bin Laden has offered a truce to America if it elects Kerry.

[Link: www.scrappleface.com...]

I do like Scrappleface.

39 Artisticulated 4/16/2004 12:57PM PST

#12 & #14

My first thought, "how is it this guy is still alive"?

Mine, too. Second thought straightened me out.

New question: When are they going to give him his Drama award? Hmm. What is the Islogical equivalent of the Academy Awards. Oh, wait. I remember

The Nobel PIECE Prize.

Ululululu!

What was I *doing*, using linear thinking?

I *KNOW* to think in circles!

#77 DP

Did the voice on the tape sound like....

Dr. Evil?

Nicholas of Last Night at th BBC is a very perceptive critic of the BBC as well as Orla the Jew Killer-Whale.

[Link: www.lastnightsbbcnews.blogspot.com...]

Apparantly Nicholas has discovered that the BBC uses code words to show its displeasure of some policies of PM Blair, Pres Bush or in Israel's case, its very existence, when it is unable to say so outright. One of these codewords is 'controversial'. Now I wonder if LGFers can identify other such BBC code words. Such an anthology could be a useful guide to BBC watchers.

#40 Alex F 4/16/2004 12:59PM PST

Do not all references to Palestine refer to the area and not a Nation?

[Note: If you hum "Ha Tikva," this becomes a genuine multimedia presentation.]

There is the *so* subtle point that the Arabic alphabet has no letter for the "P" sound.

:^[

You want to give your country a name you cannot spell or write, much less pronounce?

=8^O

Listen carefully: If the accent is strong, the word is probably, "Balastine."

;^}

Now, Hebrew has a "pey" *and* a "bet"--no problemo!

:^D

[Humming rises to a crescendo, then trails off into a meditative silence--or knee-slapping guffaws. Performer's choice.]

#46 Maine's Michael

*Snort!* LOL

# 80 Code Words.

Liberal media does that here in the US. Example....a big court decision.

If it goes in favor of the conservatives, it is "controversial".

If it is a looney lefty California court decision, then it is a "landmark decision".

79 Abu Jimbola

Why do they have to be all Doctors? Why we cant have just a plain ole Mr Evil? I just wonder.

#84 DP111 (DP) 4/16/2004 03:06PM PST

79 Abu Jimbola
Why do they have to be all Doctors? Why we cant have just a plain ole Mr Evil? I just wonder.

I can answer that question with the ultimate in Islogical accuracy, so why wait, O' infidel, for the father of mudpuppies?

That title is strictly for the doctorate level.

Master degree conveys the title, "Mr. Nasty."

Bachelor's degree carries the title, "Mr. Naughty."

Undergrads are just "No-no! Bad boy!"

And the beat goes on. And I write the songs, I write the songs.

ulululululu!

83

Another BBC code word that comes to mind is 'militant'.

Then there is BBC grammar that prohibits the use of 'terrorist' and 'Muslim' in the same sentence or even paragraph.

Then there is 'Palestinian lands', when in fact the West Bank is strictly speaking disputed territory.

I sometimes wonder if there is a BBC madrasa some place where its budding current affairs journalists are indoctrinated with BBCNewspeak.

re #80: I think I put the hyphen in the wrong place. It should read as Orla the Jew-killer whale.

Last Night's BBC News is really a terrific Blog. Well worth a read.

The whole idea is to become the majority so that they will no longer have to capitulate to westerners. Then, it's "what oh what do we do with these infidels? I know, let's see what the Prophet (PBUH) has to say!"

They are using our open immigration policies to exploit our goodwill.

The main problem as I see it is the whole issue of "groupthink" built into Islam and Arabism. Their sense of indignation and victimhood that is encouraged by their leaders because they've been brainwashed since they were 5 in the madrassas and mosques. Islam is a death cult of paranoia, hysteria and violence.

There are a few that think outside of this box, but I don't hold that a lot do. As #42 SA said, they care more about Israel/Palestine than the situation in their own countries! If that doesn't speak to their brainwashed minds, I don't know what does.

And the Left has adopted their cause, crying "racism" and "discrimination" whenever someone uses a little common sense.

#49 BPP 4/16/2004 01:23PM PST

I have had many coversations about politics with Muslims who are friends....

If they really are Muslims, please be careful. You have no Muslim friends:

"O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk." Sura 5:51, The Table, Pickthal)

The popuLLLar Yusufali translation is just a smokescreen--he "finetunes" his translation for "Western" minds. I think Pickthal usually gives the best nuances. Shakir is straightforward, but assumes more Arabic background.

afreethinker gives a lot of easy-access material in readable form. The linked page gives a summary with partial verses. (Click the Q-links for the verses, then hit your browser's back button--easy navigation.) You can pick up enough in 10 minutes flat to convince you to watch your back.

Wish I could give you better news, friend. This is not cherry picking, but an honest roundup of relevant verses. (And the guy is trying to reach Muslims....)

#60 ShiksaGrrrl 4/16/2004 02:00PM PST

Is this Arab man a Muslim or an Arab Christian?

Mr. Shoebat? He's a former Muslim who now follows the Living G-d. (Isn't it *wonderful*? A genuine miracle unfolds before our eyes.)

This is due first of all to the military supremacy of others, and second because in this generation the alternative of nonviolent struggle is a more effective weapon. I have adopted this perception and called it by the Islamic name ‘Civil Jihad.’"

Hard to believe nobody shouted, "Hey, Charles! Here's your moderate Muslim."

Oh, wait. "Nonviolent struggle." Nevermind....

#52 Kelly

With the Israelis gone, who will our children blow up?

Christians, LLLiberals, pagans, atheists, the other 71 (all conflicting) sects....

The agenda's been online for years. Very sad.

Charles sez:

According to liberal Arab writer Khaled Kishtainy, that tiny minority of extremists we’re supposed to ignore is neither tiny nor extreme

Actually Kishtainy says that "Islamic intellectuals and leaders of Islamic organizations" are extreme; I don't see him saying that the ummah is extreme.

I think it is important that we not sloppily gloss over a distinction that those who were among the first to sound the alarm on these points--like Emerson and Pipes--have always been careful to draw. The radicals may be a minority, but that doesn't change the fact that they have taken over, or else are immune to challenge from, most of the institutions. (Does this sound familiar? It should; it's that projection thing again. The Islamists love to rant about how the Jews, though small in number, run the world, and it seems credible to them because they know perfectly well that they, though few in number, control institutional Islam.)

It is of course fair to ask what it is about the dynamic of present-day Islam that allows such leaders to thrive. Saudi and Iranian petrodollars may have a lot to do with it, along with a reluctance among moderates to act in a confrontational manner. Charles' point is legitimate, but IMO it is not Kishtainy's point.

#54 brianstien

Here is what happened to Clear Guidance: The Nineteen Lions

One conclusion that we can draw from this is that Khaled Kishtainy is a dissident who would like to move the practice of Islam in a direction away from violence. Moderate? Call him what you like. He wants to make the practice of Islam more compatible with coexistence in this world, not violent, not terroristic. He is one of the good guys with respect to taming Islam.

Another conclusion is that publishers in the Muslim world refuse to publish a work that discusses, even advocates, taming Islam to make it less violent. Some possible reasons:
1. they don't want this taming of Islam to occur?
2. they don't think that the Muslim public will buy such a book?
3. they are intimidated by the bad guys; they are afraid of the consequences of doing this?

Kishtainy said that some publishers were willing to discuss this in private (but not publicly, not for the record), so for them 1. wasn't the reason.

Kishtainy said that some didn't even allow the draft of the book into their office, so for them it wasn't 2. that was driving their behavior. That's not ordinary commercial behavior.

I suspect it was 3. -- raw fear, gross intimidation.
The violence-mongers have influence, because they themselves are violent people, and incite violent people.

The people who want to murder, to massacre, to terrorize, and in general to commit acts of violence, are going to have more influence than the people who advocate pacifism, when the name of the game is intimidation.

Also, in desert Islam, compliance with the "tribe" is a high value, and independent thinking is deplored. Ijtihad , or interpreting things for yourself, is out of fashion in Islam, and has been so for centuries, with the predominance of desert Islam over all other ways of practicing Islam.

A dissenter, or even someone who can think for himself, is an outcast, in desert Islam. And nobody will want to be publicly associated with such a person, for fear of becoming an outcast also, or perhaps there are even fears of worse things that might happen.

If Kishtainy's book upsets the Islamists so much, it's probably a good book that deserves publication. Perhaps there could be readings of the book, in Arabic, over the radio. I assume that we do have some radio outreach into the Muslim world, don't we?

If the Islamists don't want it to be published, isn't there a way for the kafir world to publish it, in Arabic?

Kristainy is not remotely moderate. He still wants us dead. His point is:

...in this generation the alternative of nonviolent struggle is a more effective weapon. I have adopted this perception and called it by the Islamic name ‘Civil Jihad.’"

The STRUGGLE is not less lethal because he calls it Civil Jihad. It is still religious war to our death.

#97 genard

Civil jihad is fine with me. I have no doubt the West would win. And there would be no casualties. Unlike the real jihad.

I'm glad Al-Sharq Al-Awsat is in Londonistan. Looks like the city is getting to some of them.

Most of the people we contacted were of the opinion that the Westerners are sons of dogs who understand only force, and that the Muslims have no choice but to strap on their weapon and fight. Some cooperated with us in private meetings [but] after the meeting was over asked us not to mention anything of it to others – as if nonviolence and peace were a kind of adultery that must be hidden. This was the atmosphere that helped the emergence of the terrorists, the suicide bombers, and all those who use weapons and explosives."

Khaled Kishtainy is a liberal rebel in an Islamist mess. What's he supposed to do? Become Bush to satisfy us all?

Cheers MEMRI!

DP

Yes - the lastnightsBBCnews site is excellent. Some good fisking of the BBC "commentators" !

I think his use of Civil Jihad was a reference to Civil Disobedience as used by Gandhi. Certainly a lot more enlightened than the suicide bomb approach, no?

What floors me is why a religion, any religion, that requires a blind adherence to rules and has already admitted defeat in improving the human condition, relying on prevention rather than cure, should be considered so superior. As an anology, when a puppy shits on the carpet you beat it or rub its nose in the mess. Eventually it will stop soiling the rug, but it still remains a dog.

I see that many on LGF have been suckered by Kishtainy. The difference between Kishtainy and his co-ideologues is one of kind of tactic employed in the overall Islamic strategy of global domination. All Kishtainy is advocating is what Muslims have always preached: when confronted with superior forces, chill. In this case chill = "civil jihad." Then, once one has sufficient strength, renew the armed jihad.

I'm disappointed that you all fell for it.

#98 little ramallah,

I have to agree, Civil Jihad" is probably less murderous than the jihad of the Sword of Islam.

Still, I doubt that it's about discourse and the exchange of ideas.

I gather it's more about displacement, ethnic cleansing, genetic dissing.

#101

Helen, exactly right.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind Islam if it didn't have a political aspect to it. But the political aspect is what makes it so troublesome. They have far more imperialistic intentions than the Western world. And yet, the Arabs don't see it that way and the Left doesn't it see it that way.

The fact that Wahhabbi groups in Western countries try to push their backwards sharia on us and the "moderate" Muslims stay silent? What are we supposed to think?

As a Christian, and a believer in the God of the Jews, if you read the Quran, it is a twisted pervision of the Jewish God and the Christian Jesus. Anti-God and anti-Christ.

People that worship death first do not believe in a living God.

...

#100 rummyjohn

Religion is flawed, but God is not. There is a difference.

I find it misleading to think in terms of a search for a "moderate", which in some thinking has become an ideal, a person who agrees with one in every possible way.

What is more important, I think, is that there are people in the ummah who want to steer the practice of Islam in directions that are beneficial for society as a whole.

This does not call for my blind allegiance to those individuals, because they may be opposed to me on other things.

But it does make sense to support them on matters where they are making a positive contribution.

Khaled Kishtainy is proposing to the ummah a change that is better for society as a whole, which involves moving away from terroristic jihad. He is not calling for ending the supremacist notions of Islam, which would be better.

Even the traditionalists in Islam want to keep military jihad, so Kishtainy is going further by wanting to move away not only from terroristic jihad, but away from military jihad, and even away from violent jihad. If that sort of thinking were heeded, it would make a big improvement for society as a whole.

You are not going to change the Muslim's notion that Islam is the best religion, or the only true religion, or that everybody else needs to be converted to Islam. But at least if you can convince the Islamist to put away his sword, that would be an improvement.

By the way, what is that image on the Saudi-Wahhabi flag under the Shehada? Looks to me like a sword. All the more reason for viewing Kishtainy's words as extraordinary, when our so-called allies in the KSA make no secret of their intentions and put them right on their flag.

There are some moderate Muslims, those who wish to become part of the modern world and denounce violence. I believe that if they are encouraged, it may start a snowball effect. If I am wrong, there is no hope for the human race for the next 100 years.

There can be no "moderate" Muslim. To be moderate is to be apostate, i.e. converted, dead.

You may be a relaxed Muslim, but your relaxation extends in proportion to the distance you maintain from other Muslims. Islam is totalitarian and like totalitarianism it is enforced by what your neighbors and family thinks you believe.

The supremacy of Islam is always believed and the need to convert the world to Dar al Islam is never abandoned.

As a point of discussion, I wonder if Muslims should not be required to take a loyalty oath to the supremacy of the laws of the nation in which they reside, and to specifically renounce the supremacy of Sharia.

Genard, they'd never do it. As it is, they pay lip service when they take this country's citizenship oath.

EE, you misunderstand Kishtainy severely. You cannot prove your analysis of his text by reference to it.

Superninja, I would have a problem with Islam even if it removes the political dimension because Islam is heresy that says God is a liar. By claiming the Koran as the final text in which God says to kill those who do not believe and Mohammed as the final prophet who speaks not peace but teaches hate and war, Islam also claims that the nature of God is mutable and finite. If allah is the same as the Judaeo-Christian God, then either the J-C Scriptures lie or the Koran does; for the words of allah contradict those of the Judaeo-Christian God. Since God cannot lie and therefore cannot contradict Himself, then allah is the liar, and is therefore Satan, the deceiver who ever was a liar from the beginning. Thus, as a Christian, since allah is Satan, and since Islam is his teaching, then I must have a problem with Islam because it sets itself against the true faith of the One True and Living God and leads billions to eternal death and damnation.

Helen,

Certainly no Muslim would take my pledge, that is the hope. They may go home.

Also, in a pissing contest among absolute God Heads I think the Muslims believe that Allah took the last shot.

#49 BPP

How would I know, for one thing?

Maybe you are having a conversation with people who are having a covertsation while planning a convertsation.

'Civil jihad' is not acceptable as it is still Jihad. If you like call it a hudna, as the sword is not working for Islam at the moment. It is a gambit to get the kaffirs lulled into a false sense of security, until Muslim numbers are strong, then unleash the sword once again.

Kishtainy is just one sole voice. He does not represent the official voice of Islam. And the official voice of Islam will always be that of the koran.

I'm wary of disinformation campaigns like this. Such a strategy has been laid out by their prophet and leader. Why do we have to give Kishtainy any credence whatever.
Unless he denounces the koran and its edicts, one has to treat this as mere disinformation calculated to cause confusion in the ranks of the infidels.

#109 Helen

I agree with you 100%. I think that any religion that promises men 72 virgins and boys scattered like pearls in a garden surely does not come from God. Even if you don't believe in God, to think that the nature of God (should he exist) would reward men with such common earthly delights as the Quranic sex-fest in heaven makes Islam as a "religion" completely suspect. Not to mention that their prophet had sex with a child and also married the wife of one of his followers which Mohammed forbid, but then had a talk with Allah who made an exception in his case.

I find it amusing that while Muslims constantly preach against the West as the Great Satan with all of our decadence, that their own holy book promotes earthly delights in the afterlife (and excuses in the name of Mohammed in the meantime) as long as the men are busy making sure that everyone else is minding their Ps and Qs with a sword in their fist. These guys make fundamentalist Christians look like a cakewalk.

However, Islam wouldn't have as much power as it does if it did not possess the political element, which is what I initially said. Without the political element, there wouldn't really be anything for these people to rally around. Because without it, Islam means very little in contrast to other religions. It has no real purpose other than jihad.

Personally, I believe that the Quran is evil, and that it's a deliberate perversion of Judaism and Christianity with Satan's fingerprints all over it.