What next, a call for the implementation of sharia?

FOAD!

But Majewski in a BURQA.

Personally, I think I could add some traction to this slippery slope.

Oh yeah, sorry first!

#1 One Of These Days:

What next, a call for the implementation of sharia?

Oh, man, that train left the station long ago!

And so it begins with one small concesion...................

Three killed as Lebanese army fires on petrol-price protest.

We need international protection!!

Massacre!!!

"Beirut, Beirut"

/no one.

I'm getting really sick of this "peace be upon him" crap. After all, this Muhammed guy was ANYTHING but peaceful. He slaughtered whole tribes, engaged in generally ruthless warefare, had sex with children (9 year old wife), ect.... How about "peace be upon his victims" (pbuhv) from now on.

"It was not immediately known when the vote would be held in this enclave surrounded by the city of Detroit, but it is likely to be in the next few months.

In the meantime, Majewski said, the mosque can go ahead with its calls to prayer."

This is probably a good thing. Have people getting woken up by this call blaring over the PA and you're quite likely to "get out the vote" when it comes time to put a stop to it.

What do you suppose the response would be if it were a temple shouting out on loudspeakers "There is no God but YHVH and Moses is his messenger"? (tip to [Link: www.rokemneedlearts.com...] ).. or even , God Forbid, A church proclaiming 5 times a day that "Jesus is you lord and savior" ?

WELL! I wonder how Hamtramck would react to fundamentalist Jesus-freaks five times a day broadcasting "Jesus is the son of God! For God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son ..." over loudspeakers that everyone can hear? And why, in the spirit of full disclosure, don't the Muslims have to tell everyone that the religion they're shouting about hates and advocates the extermination of Jews, uppity women, gays, Hindus, atheists and anyone else who isn't part of their medieval mindset?

If I ran the closest church near the mosque, I'd be setting up some speakers of my own, to broadcast right after the adnan...since they removed the noise ordinance might as well.
Let's see if the city council thinks people who complain about the church broadcasting 5 times a day are 'racist', since that is what they called those against being bombarded with the adnan 5 times a day.

Hurry to the prayer
Hurry to the prayer

Ramma lamma ding dong
goes the effen bell.

The council had voted unanimously last month to allow the Bangladeshi Al-Islah Mosque to broadcast the call to prayer five times a day.

How does Bangladesh get to decide what happens here in the US? Is the mosque off limits to all but Bangladeshi citizens?

#10

Jesus-freaks

{proud to be one!}

:)

Does this mean that Catholic ministries can continue to ring those loud church bells to call parishioners to church mass in the mornings and several times on Sunday?

Is it just me or are most of our politicians morons? I mean come on how much common sense and intelligence do you have to have to dig into these things and see what is really going on?

In fairness, if they ban the "call to prayer", they should also ban the ringing of church bells.

In a way, church bells are also a call to prayer.

Some states in the US are banning religious symbols and taking the 10 commandments of walls of courthouses, but they're allowing the muslim call to prayer to be broadcast over louspeakers and will wake up half the town!

Will the citizens of Hamtranck wake up and put a stop to this nonsense before they become the first dhimmis to pay jizya to the overly vocal Muslims there???

I suggest "Rock The Casbah" at full volume.

"Together We Will Conquer" -- Paul van Dyk

"These Boots Were Made For Walkin'" -- your favorite version

Anything by Kiss.

Coldplay -- A Rush of Blood to the Head

Newly added to play list: Olive, CD Trickle

That's just me exercising my First Amendment musical rights to play whatever I want loud on my stereo.

We've argued this before, and I'm not saying that Church bells bother me at all, but I absolutely gauruntee once the Muslims are rebuked from being allowed to violate the noise ordinances in such blatant and overt ways, they will argue that Christian churches are allowed to have calls to prayer (even though they aren't really calls, more like alarm bells) and by any standard included in the establishment clause, they would have a point.

The government does grant this particular noise ordinance privilege to churches, and would be hypocritical not to do it for any other religion. The only way to stop Muslims from taking this all the way to the top would be to refuse any religion at all from violating noise ordinances, including church bells.

It's coming down to this folks. This is not Christianity versus Islam, this is Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness versus 8th Century mindless Islamic fanaticism....and we MUST prevail....

Why do these chumps need to be called to prayer anyway. Can't zealots afford wristwatches.

This whole thing is un-American.

Blackman,

nice try. The churchbells ring on Sundays only, and not all day.

I'd imagine that when it's put to the vote, the Islamist community will find that their famikly friends and members will come and stay with them for a few days... inflating the voting figures to about 100,000... ;-)

what does

"hurry to the success
hurry to the success"
mean?

Is there a better translation?

(i.e., could it mean something like
"hurry to the victory"?
"hurry to the triumph"?
"hurry to the winning"?

just curious.

(Of course, I know that Islam is a RoP and
that even if it did translate as "victory",
that can only be interpreted in spiritual terms,
and shame upon me (SuM) for thinking
otherwise.

#17 Canuckistan

Do you get chruch bells at 5 in the moring every day?

I guess the biggest question is what city is next.

Yes but the church bells aren't rung out five times a day like the Muslim call to worship. Hell I'd rather hear bells than some dumbass calling out to worship at all hours of the day.

Meanwhile, in the nearby state of Ohio

CLEVELAND - The American Civil Liberties Union of Ohio and the City of Stow have written their final arguments in the contentious case of whether a Latin cross and Bible depicted in one quadrant of the city's official seal violates the First Amendment of the Constitution.

So I'm certain the ACLU is preparing its case right now against the outrageous establishment of religion in Michigan...

//sarcasm

Jamie Irons

#17 Canuckistan:

In fairness, if they ban the "call to prayer", they should also ban the ringing of church bells.

First of all, no matter how hard you try, you cannot equate the sound of bells with a verbal message. Second of all, in many towns, many church bells fulfill a secondary function of ringing the hours - it's a civic enhancement.

But most important - why should we bend over backwards to be "fair"? Why is it fair to put a civic imprimatur on a religious practice that gets in your face 5 times a day to proclaim its own superiority in public so no one can ignore it?

Here we go with the church bells discussion again.

Maybe we should just refer everybody to this thread.

These muslims are like children...if one has it they will all have to have it...imagine all the mosques in every city wailing at the same time...hope someone comes to their senses soon

#10 Robert Speirs

You beat me to it. I wonder how long it would take the ACLU to start seething if a Christian Church began belting out the Lord's Prayer on loudspeakers?

Funny thing is...church bells don't ding-dong with the sound "Jesus is your savior, Jesus is the greatest".

Where the heck is the ACLU in all this?
They usually get their panties in a bunch whenever God is even slightly involved.

Does anyone have an email address for this multi-CULT-eralist city council and/or mayor?

Got a few things to say especially about the slippery slope and the eventuality of Shar'ia law. Hey, these mullah meatheads got their wish here in Canada, I'm so ashamed to say.

Let's solve this problem by eliminating all religious practices and freedoms in this country...

//sarcastically repeating the logic that was argued by some before

At least the peal of church bells are part of our heritage and culture in the west... and they're tuneful too...

Church bells were used also to signal emergencies, used in the war to call for air raids, etc... what good is a minoret with the imam calling, unless of course, they call the faithful to jihad against the indifel??

I have many churches in my area, and have never once heard a church bell...one church downtown, where no one resides btw, rings the bells once on sunday morning.
A bell is a far cry from ALLAH AKBAR, ALLAH AKBAR, ALLAH AKBAR!!!!! five times a day.
If I had to wake up to that every morning I'd go nuts.
Especially considering Allah Akbar is the last thing people hear before being blown to bits or having their childrens legs blown off in front of them, or crashing into a building while riding a plane, or being beheaded by militant muslims.

Canuckistan:
Where do you live? I've lived in Winnipeg for about 16 years, and I don't remember hearing church bells--maybe once in a blue moon. I certainly don't think most churches here ring their bells regularly, even on a Sunday.

Where's the fucking ACLU on this intrusion of religion into the public square? No non Muslim wants to hear this crappy brainwashing. This stinking "adnan" is way of claiming you are under the purview of a certain mosque. That you are it's subject.

On the good side, Al Hamza "Capt. Hook" is in the hoosegow.

1. The Hamtramck City Council is not "feckless," Charles. Perhaps they should be considered courageous to take this action in the face of bigoted opposition and rabble-rousing such as you are fomenting.

2. Saying "there is no God but Allah," does not translate into an "explicit statement of superiority" except in the fevered minds of bigots like you.

Model4 - I think that may be the name of the mosque - like "Kennedy High School". I am not sure it signifies Bangladesh has anything to do with its operations.

I am no fan of Islam (pteuy) but can't see any legal reason to ban the call except for the noise ordinance itself. The practice of Islam - the more fully it is practiced - is incredibly intrusive into a society. The call is symptomatic of that - but I still can't justify banning it unless all similar things are banned as well. And I don't know if I want to live in a place that bans all public forms of faith.

Hey Blackman, if you ever heard a mosque's call to prayer, you would understand that it's alot more irritating than church bells.

#19 Beagle

I was thinking more along the lines of:

Anything from The Misfits

Anything Danzig

Turbonegro would do nicely

Rob Zombie maybe?

Slayer, Megadeth, oh yeah, DID I MENTION DANZIG??

I'm afraid I would have to park my ride next to the mosque and let "brand new god" scream @ about 100db.

/deviant

Ranger's Dad,

Sorry I didn't follow up in that thread, it reached the "too many posts to follow" point and I didn't have anything to add.

So I'll break it down like this.

If Christian Churches are allowed to ring their call to prayer and violate local noise ordinances in the process, even if it is only on Sundays, and even if it is only a bell, is this or is this not government granting a particular religious group special privilege, thereby violating the establishment clause?

Yes or no answer. I know how you feel about the establishment clause. Please show me why this isn't special privilege to Christianity..

This is nothing that throwing a Gordon or two through the loudspeak wouldn't cure....

Coming to a town near you...

[Link: english.aljazeera.net...]

Gordon

Keep a civil tongue in your head.

Calling your host a "bigot" makes me wonder what kind of upbringing you had.

Jamie Irons

33 Josh

Funny thing is...church bells don't ding-dong with the sound "Jesus is your savior, Jesus is the greatest".

What are you, an athiest! That's what the ding-dong means to me! (joking).

If the city council had any political finesse, they would have enacted public concert licensing (for public noisy events), and had a small charge of maybe $25 per event. Then they would have said church bells and a call to prayer both constitute a form of public concert. Then you can do the math and figure out who ends up paying more.

#28 Jamie Irons

So I'm certain the ACLU is preparing its case right now against the outrageous establishment of religion in Michigan...

They'll be saying that the imam call to prayer is quite legal... because they don't want to offend the Islamists and CAIR (with their terror connections)...

Only religions of the infidel must be outlawed according to some organisations!

Church bells are not always calls to prayer; they're often the melodies to hymns played after the service.

I don't think this issue is worth hyperventilating over.

If there's a noise ordinance, it should be applied across the board to churches, mosques, street carnivals, businesses, and suburban white kids pumping 50 Cent out of their daddy's BMWs at 100 decibals.

The law cannot make preferences between types of religious sounds, as that amounts to endorsing one type of religious practice.

But what is lost of the fair number of religion-hating Objectivist LGF readers is that the First Amendment doesn't give the government the power to impose restrictions on religious organizations that aren't imposed equally on secular organizations. As much as you Randies dislike religion, you can't selectively ban religious noise while allowing secular noise.

Yesss, mornin' gordo!

2. Saying "there is no God but Allah," does not translate into an "explicit statement of superiority" except in the fevered minds of bigots like you.

Gordon,

I disagree - well I think it is implict. It IS implying polytheists or even Christians are in error. A statement saying "Jesus is the Son of God" implies the same thing - and I bet if most Muslims heard that on a loud speaker 5 times a day they would think so too.

Gordon should be thrown out if only for his bad manners.

I thought Gordo had been cast into the dungeon?..

#10

Jesus-freaks
{proud to be one!}

:)

Me too...me too!!

:>p

Gordon (#40):

Perhaps they should be considered courageous to take this action in the face of bigoted opposition and rabble-rousing such as you are fomenting.

Cowardice is courage.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.
War Islam is peace.

Gordon is a contemptible dhimmi.

Which of the above statements is true?

#53 Zulubaby: Sorry, I'm not important enough to be banned, like VFI and Conventbabe and Ranbutan were. Just ask Charles.

Charles' obsession with this story and the nasty vitriol of his comments qualify as bigotry. The truth sometimes hurts, Zulubaby.

Allah is not great, however, America is.

@19 Beagle

"Lucid Dreaming" by QueensRyche :)

Gordons is still in a pissy mood because of his tattoo.

Just out of curiousity, I wonder what Tman thinks of the statement by Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story in his 1833 Commentaries on the Constitution,

"The real object of the First Amendment was not to countenance much less to advance Mohammedanism, or Judaism, or infidelity, by prostrating Christianity, but to exclude all rivalry among Christian sects and to prevent any national ecclesiastical patronage of the national government."

Or this one, from his Familiar Exposition of the Constitution of the United States,

"We are not to attribute this prohibition of a national religious establishment to an indifference to religion in general, and especially to Christianity (which none could hold in more reverence than the framers of the Constitution)....

"Probably, at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, and of the Amendment to it now under consideration, the general, if not the universal, sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the State so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience and the freedom of religious worship."

Again, just curious what Tman thinks about the interpretation of the Establishment clause shown by one of the foremost constitutional jurists in the early Republic, a man who personally knew most of the framers of the Constitution, and who was appointed to the Supreme Court by James Madison in 1811, etc. etc.

If a secular group was making "secular noise" at 4:30am, the neighbors would call the cops, and the cops would come shut down the party.

zulubaby (#53):

Gordon should be thrown out if only for his bad manners.

An abject dhimmi and a raging asshole: quite a combination.

#44 Tman

I agree, if a city or town has a noise ordinance and church bells exceed the decibel level, they should come under the same enforcement as any other religious house of worship.

I don't agree with all the arguments that were being made last time about not being able to stand out on a public sidewalk and hand out tracts or invite people to know Jesus. Freedom of religion includes freedom in the public square.

(I do agree with the establishment clause, exactly as it is worded in the Constitution. Not so much with how it is being interpreted many times by our judiciary, but that's another topic.)

#40 Gordon

It appears that Allah is many Gods... but not the God of the Bible.

Essentially, we must understand and accept that Allah of the Islamic religion is NOT the same as the God of the Bible. Allah can be traced backwards through ancient Near Eastern religious history as the latest development in a series of astral and atmospheric deities in the ancient Semitic world, all the way back to very ancient Mesopotamia, the original seat of both civilisation, and also idolatry. Muslims, when they worship Allah, are not worshipping the true Creator God, but are rather worshipping a false god, one whose worship is condemned in the Bible:

“...And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either, the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded.” (Deuteronomy 17:4)

"And he put down the idolatrous priests, whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high places in the cities of Judah, and in the places round about Jerusalem; them all that burned offering unto Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets, and to all the host of heaven.” (II Kings 23:5)

For the Muslim who wished to deny or ignore this evidence, the question is posed: Why does Islam have such a fixation with the crescent moon symbol, a symbol which is intimately and widely associated with the worship of the moon god throughout history, under whatever name, in Sumer, Akkad, Syria, Persia, Canaan, Egypt, and Arabia? Though many Muslims will argue that the crescent moon symbology entered Islam very late as a result of Turkish influence in the 15th century, this is simply not the case. The evidence for the crescent moon as a religious symbol in Islam goes back to 75 AH (696 AD), where it is used as a symbol on coins94. Why do many mosques and other Islamic religious buildings have depictions of the crescent moon on their spires and pinnacles? Why do the flags of twelve Muslim nations (Algeria, Azerbaijan, Brunei, Comoros, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Pakistan, Tunisia, Turkey, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan) go so far as to include this crescent moon symbol? Why is the knowledge of the timing of the hilal, the crescent moon, so important for starting the Muslim holy month of fasting, Ramadan? All the evidence points to the fact of the moon symbol being important to the early Arabs among whom the religion of Islam gradually developed, and that this pre-Islamic pagan symbol was imported into Islam, along with the rest of the ancient trappings.

For the Muslim to be free of idolatry means, ultimately, that he or she must turn from Islam, with its worship of this created god, and turn to the True Creator God of the Bible, who has said that He will not share His glory with other “gods” (Isaiah 42:8).

In short, the notion that Allah is the same as the God of the Bible, and that Allah is just the fullest revelation of God who had previously been revealed in the Torah and the Bible, must be rejected.

"There is no reason, therefore, to accept the idea that Allah passed to the Muslims from the Christians and Jews".

The God of the Bible is not the same as the Allah worshipped in Islam. Instead, the roots of Islam's deity are found in Middle Eastern mythology, and as such represent the latest manifestation of idolatry in that region, and wherever Islam has spread.

[Link: www.studytoanswer.net...]

#57 Gordon

I just re-read Charles' post. I am unable to detect any "nasty vitriol." I do, however, note some juvenile name-calling on your part.

#40 Gordon

This is your colonialism at its most apparent: you know nothing about Islam, haven't a clue about this religion, have never read the primary religious documents, wouldn't know the Sunnah from a Sharia. Muhammed was very clear: there are to be no other religions but Islam, there is to be no other government except Islam, the non-believers are to be killed. Your fantasies about culture of which we both know you are ignorant were detailed in a fine book by Lederer & Burdick entitled The Ugly American. You need to read that book first and then mend your ways.

#44, Tman

Please show me why this isn't special privilege to Christianity..

The country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles.

Death to the infidels, remember that part??

Charles' obsession with this story and the nasty vitriol of his comments qualify as bigotry.

A camel's nose under the tent, Gordon.

Gordo's like a (not particularly bright) dog with a bone. He thinks he scored a clever one on Charles here - and now he's worrying at it with his little paws and teeth and pretending he's actually fighting with something he can handle.

#57 Gordon (LGF pet monkey)

This is what you consider 'nasty vitriol':

And here’s a translation of the adhan; note that the Hamtramck City Council sees nothing wrong with allowing mosques to broadcast an explicit statement of Islam’s superiority to all other religions, five times a day:

Oooohh. That evil, evil man.

#15 Blackman

Does this mean that Catholic ministries can continue to ring those loud church bells to call parishioners to church mass in the mornings and several times on Sunday?

I don't recall a church ringing bells at 4:30am. Nor do I believe that a church rings their bells 5 times per day. Perhaps a bell is rung at the top of the hour, in which case it's not a call to prayer. I haven't heard a Pastor screaming over a loud speaker either.

I believe a poster from Canada did mention that a local church in her area does play hymns.

I still don't see how the islamic call to prayer can in any way be compared to a church bell.

@40 Gordon

Why do you have to be reminded where you are posting?
Why don't you STHU.
I'm SICK of your whinging morass, take your fat arse elsewhere and DONT COME BACK.

Well, here is just one more reason not to visit michigan. IT's really sad that this is even up for vote. COuld you imaging if churches and synagoues were doing this at the same time. It's not like they are living in iran. it's michigan.

Is there any doubt, any doubt whatsoever, that if a Church were to broadcast, even once:

God is great, God is great
God is great, God is great

I bear witness to the holy trinity, there is no deity but God
I bear witness to the holy trinity, there is no deity but God

I bear witness that Jesus is the Son of God
I bear witness that Jesus is the Son of God

Hurry to the prayer
Hurry to the prayer

Hurry to the success
Hurry to the success

God is great, God is great

There is no deity but God

that the ACLU would be having kittens?

In the spirit of compromise, how about the mosque get rid of the call and just ring bells instead? How about it, eh? Is 'compromise' even in the Islamic dictionary?

Victoria - where in Va? Hampton Roads here

Ni!

Allah is gone, Allah is gone
Allah is gone, Allah is gone

I bear my pecker at Abu Ghraib
I bear my pecker at Abu Ghraib

I bear my ass to my brother at Abu Ghraib
I bear my ass to my brother at Abu Ghraib

Hurry to the cells
Hurry to the cells

I should'a stayed home
I should'a stayed home

Allah is gone, Allah is gone

"What will people think when they hear that I'm a Jesus Freak?
What will people do when they find that it's true.
I don't really care if they label me a Jesus freak.
There ain't no disguising the truth!"

(DC Talk)

cba

Where do you live? I've lived in Winnipeg for about 16 years, and I don't remember hearing church bells.

Hmmm, do I know you? I rarely if ever hear church bells in Wpg. I don't know what the situation in Michigan is though. The point is, because of the whole separation of church and state thing, it may be legal to ban calls to prayer, so long as the ban is applied equally to all religions.

So Gordon, you wouldnt mind if tomorrow morning at sunrise you were woken up by the lord's prayer being blasted in your neighborhood?...and this would happen every morning, for as long as you lived in your home?
And not only that but five times a day.
And if your neighbors complained, would you call them bigots or no?

OT:

It's the Economy, Meatheads

The next time I hear some blathering idiot talk about how shitty the economy is, I'm going to head-butt them. How would it be? To create an alternate reality?

oh yeah:

#62 Josh

NO DOUBT!

Don't forget, Allah's prophet Muhammed frequently gets equal billing in the Koran. No "buts". I'm talking "ands".

Gordon, the call to prayer is loud, intruding and obnoxious. Just like you. No wonder you like it.

Seriously though, this is an imposition of a religious belief if I ever saw one. If you live in town, there is no way to avoid hearing the prayer. Not to mention that due to cultural differences most people in town will find the melody (or lack of it) incredibly irritating.

#79 Canuckistan:
You're from the Peg?!! LOL! Email me... let me know when you do, because I rarely check my "lgf" account unless someone tells me they've sent something there.

#72 Victoria (VA girl):

I believe a poster from Canada did mention that a local church in her area does play hymns.

That's interesting, but I don't know if it's that common.

Knight who says Ni (#76),

Is 'compromise' even in the Islamic dictionary?

No, but lying, treachery and false treaties are.

#80 TS,

That reminds me of a story - a few years back in NYC, Muslims were granted the right to pray in public schools. A Catholic Bishop (IIRC on the title) wrote a letter to the school and said How wonderful this news is! He was looking forward to Christian students organinzing prayer groups in the school as well and welcomed this change in school policy.

The school then rescinded its policy of allowing Muslim prayer.

It is funny but sad that what they are so willing to do for Muslims they would rather slit their wrists than allow for Christians - yet they don't see their own bias.

@44 Tman

Maybe you should go and read some American History. This country is founded, based and run on Judeo/Christian premises. We started out this way, why are we being forced to change it for some intrusive immigrants who are ONLY here to invade, conquor and dhimmi the ones who don't convert or die?
How ignorant can you get? If the bells go, then next will be the foundation teachings in the church itself. Then when and where and what time we can worship. You just don't get it, our religious freedoms are being assaulted, taken away in increments. It always starts with some nitpicking small thing and advances to the major areas. Or maybe you're one of those who would like to see ALL religious affliation and association to be deleted and destroyed in this country. You watch this country really go down the toilet then. It leaves us nothing to base ourselves on but our own warlike cruel past behaviour. Which by the way has shown NO slowing down or changing. Humans aren't sheep, they're wolves.

Would Gordon care to explain to me how "There is no god but Allah" isn't an explicit statement of superiority?

Maybe it only claims superiority over the polytheist religions. (As an aside, do Hindus consider themselves polytheists?)

However "I bear witness that Muhammad (pbuh) is the Messenger of Allah" pretty much even rules out the other monotheistic religions, doesn't it?

For a while, Gordo seemed like he was becoming enlightened, but for about the last six months he has regressed to the standard "the election was stolen"/"Bush Lied-People Died"/Dean for President kind of moon-battiness.

#77 LOL!

Wait... her name is Karen Majewski?

There's a "jew" in Majewski.

JOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOS!

Really I see the what the big deal is. Five times a day, everyday. Fun :-)

OT

A new legal defense:

Al-Qaeda made me do it

Roche feared al-Qaeda
27/05/2004 11:27 - (SA)

Perth - A British-born Islamic convert accused of plotting to blow up the Israeli embassy in Canberra told his trial here on Thursday that he agreed to follow al-Qaeda orders to avoid being killed.

Jack Roche, 50, earlier admitted meeting with al-Qaeda leaders during a trip to Afghanistan in 2000 and said he carried out surveillance and tried unsuccessfully to recruit militants to carry out attacks in Australia.

But in his second day of testimony on Thursday, Roche said he had later been shocked to learn the identities of some of the people he had met in Afghanistan when he logged onto a website showing the US FBI's most wanted fugitives.

"I was shocked. I was really taken aback," he said, saying he recognised five or six people he had met with in Afghanistan.

"I was thinking 'this is too much - this is very, very deep'," he said.

During his trip to Afghanistan, Roche - who has admitted being a member of the Southeast Asian Islamic group Jemaah Islamiah (JI) - briefly met al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden.

Bomb "never mentioned"

He then talked at length with other senior al-Qaeda members he named as Abu Hafs and Saif, saying they quizzed him about Israeli government interests in Australia, as well as prominent Melbourne Jewish businessman Joe Gutnick.

"I really had no idea where they were going with this but the cogs were starting to turn," he said.

Hmm, just where would they be going with that, Jack?

Church bells don't have words!....They just go Ding- Dong, Ding-Dong. They mark the time of day.
If the local Catholic church started blasting the Lords Prayer five times a day I'd be against that too.

I suggest that the good folks of Hamtramck start hitting their car horns every time that creepy voice starts echoing through the streets.

Until our Churches, Temples, Sinagogues, Terreiros, DoJos, and esotic dance discos (for Pagans), will not be allowed in EVERY muslim country, this will be just another step of the invasion and of the establishment of the caliphate.

RECIPROCITY.

Another interesting word they ignore.

#76 Knight

Victoria - where in Va? Hampton Roads here

Leesburg. Howdy!

Can my #91 be anymore freaking incoherent. Haven't been drinking yet....I swear.

#14 Ranger's Dad
#10

Jesus-freaks

{proud to be one!}

:)

Count me IN on that list!

Jesus is the Son of God and mankind's savior. A spiritual being whispered into The False Prophet's (pbuhv) ear that Jesus was just a prophet. Guess who sent that spirit? Satan. Thus, who was it that this spirit commanded The False Prophet (pbuhv) to worship? "The diety" Satan.

What a start -- no wonder it's TROPMA. That is EXACTLY what its "diety" wants!

(Thanks, happycynic, for that (pbuhv) idea!)

Well, just got some work to do.

Guess I'll catch the rest of the discussion later...

#61 Titus,

"Just out of curiousity, I wonder what Tman thinks of the statement by Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story in his 1833 Commentaries on the Constitution,

"The real object of the First Amendment was not to countenance much less to advance Mohammedanism, or Judaism, or infidelity, by prostrating Christianity, but to exclude all rivalry among Christian sects and to prevent any national ecclesiastical patronage of the national government."

I think that that goes along with what I'm saying. "prevent any national ecclesiastical patronage of the national government."-means the government shouldn't allow Churches to violate noise ordinances just because they are churches. Or Mosques, or Daddys spoiled brat blasting 50 cent in dads beemer.

And this part-

"Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the State so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience and the freedom of religious worship."

I completely disagree with. NO RELIGION should get "encouragement from the state" period. Just because this scholar has his opinions doesn't mean he isn't wrong. Jefferson was quite clear about preventing the State from encouraging any one specific religion.

Rangers Dad,

"I agree, if a city or town has a noise ordinance and church bells exceed the decibel level, they should come under the same enforcement as any other religious house of worship."

That's all I'm saying. And I GAURUNTEE YOU once again this is what the courts will be forced to do once the Muslims appeal the eventual decision.

Where I live, the bells wake us up at 5.30am and you know what? I am delighted to hear them.

Escaped here from France and now live in the country which does NOT produce cuckoo clocks. And the people here are prepared to fight for their/our freedoms.

btw. Shooting practice at the village range next Saturday for the village soldiers.

OK. We do have the problem of cow bells which can be very attractive - but when they are outside your window from 7am till 5pm can be annoying.

Why do cows have bells, one wonders?

Because their horns don't work.

Charles' obsession with this story and the nasty vitriol of his comments qualify as bigotry.

Gordon's obsession with Charles, and the nasty vitriol of his comments against him qualify as...?

Sorry, forgot that Gordon's a liberal. No standards of logic or conduct shall ever trump his immediate emotional needs. And his right to inflict them on others.

You're a small man Gordon. I'm sorry the pain you carry around forces you to act this way. In your childish arithmetic I suppose that every bit you dish out to someone else will lessen your suffering. But just like any other addict, that momentary high is replaced with a longer and harsher low, forcing you to do more and more.

I've seen you over many months change from a relatively cheery person with some views I couldn't abide, to a cruel and hateful wretch that exists to drag others down into his own fetid pit. Put down the hate Gordon, turn your back on it, and walk away. It may be hard to do right now, but it's only going to be harder the longer you cling to it. It'll be sooner than you think that you're glad you did.

#96 RWC

That could be the problem. Maybe we should get going my friend!!

#87 quark

You have some reading to do yourself there big fella..

Start here and let me know how "ignorant" I am after reading it-

[Link: www.rationalrevolution.net...]

Especially this part-

The founding of the United States of America took place in 1787 with the signing of the Constitution, which is a purely secular document. In relation to religion the Constitution states:

Article VI: Clause 3: The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

In relation to taking the Oath of Office the Constitution simply states:

Article II Section I: Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:--"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

@99 Tman

I guarantee you are NOT going to like the deadly silence we're about to be accosted by either.
The muslims have discovered by using this as a weapon against christian churches they can completely shut them ALL down. Maybe next there will be regulations that are in place that all churches have to be SOUNDPROOF, so that no singing or preaching can be heard from the outside walls. When our religious freedoms are torn down, you think it's going to stop there? If so, then you are a fool.

Re: #93:

Church bells don't have words!....They just go Ding- Dong, Ding-Dong. They mark the time of day.
If the local Catholic church started blasting the Lords Prayer five times a day I'd be against that too.

I agree. Church bells are a call to come pray. The adhan - regardless of what it is nominally called - it in fact itself a prayer.

Also, church bells, as others have written, may signify (or may have signified) other things: weddings, funerals, mass, air raids, etc.

To me, that is the difference. The bells is a noise calling those who wish to come pray. The adhan broadcast through the city is forcing a prayer on all inhabitants of the city.

Thus, I agree, if the mosque wants to ring a bell to call those to come pray, no problem. But, the adhan simply throws prayers out there on everyone - even if they don't want them.

#94 Poitiers-Lepanto

Reciprocity is a word unheard of in Islam... they want it ALL their own way and if they can't have it, they'll just take it!

They have a false god, who is one of many pagan gods they call Allah (Molech), they have a religion where the true adherents tend to sacrifice their children, and they kill infidel as blood sacrifices to their god... shouting allahu akbar when they've taken a life!

Blood sacrifice isn't the demand of any spiritual, kind, tolerant or universally good creator... it's satanism!

My eyes fill with tears,
they spill down my cheeks
and through my fingers.
Will the false prophet
and his evil twin
win this round?
Great ignorance abounds.

For in the beginning was the word
whose sound makes a path
through the brain,
makes an imprint on the soul.
Will these evil sounds fly through the air,
like demons heading for their lair?