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 RetweetCBS News Goes to the Mattresses

Sat, Sep 11, 2004 at 4:10:10 pm PDT

In an astoundingly bad move, CBS News continues to insist that the Killian documents are genuine.

I’m almost certain that at least some people at CBS are aware that these documents are fakes. Phonies. Forgeries. And stunningly inept forgeries, at that.

At some point, they’re going to have to admit it; but right now it looks as if they simply don’t care about the truth, and are trying to ride out the scandal, assuming that most people can be bamboozled by their inept excuses.

The seriousness of what happened here cannot be overstressed. Someone deliberately forged documents, in an attempt to interfere with a presidential election in a time of war, and CBS News rushed these forged documents into release—apparently with almost no serious attempt to verify their provenance. Compare this with the way the entire mainstream media utterly ignored the Swift Boat Veterans stories, for almost a month. The only conclusion one can reach is that CBS rushed the Killian documents out because they saw a chance to hurt George W. Bush, and this blinded them to the possible consequences of tying their reputation to such obvious forgeries.

Some have suggested that these documents may have been “planted” by the evil Karl Rove (cue sound of horses whinnying), to make news media and Democrats look bad. But if you were going to plant false documents, wouldn’t you spend considerable effort to make sure they looked real, so your intended patsy wouldn’t immediately notice that they were created with Microsoft Word?

Of course you would. The “false flag” theory doesn’t hold water either.

I suspect the person who created these fake documents is young enough to have no experience with the typewriters of the 1970s, and stupid enough to think that hastily created MS Word files (with all the MS Word signature characteristics) would be enough to fool the entire world.

I think we have a very strong contender for Idiotarian of 2004, in the moron(s) who failed to notice that MS Word automatically converts “187th” to “187th.”

But regardless of the stupidity of the perpetrator(s), using fraudulent documents to influence a presidential election is very serious business. There needs to be an investigation, and the longer CBS stonewalls the worse it’s going to be for them.

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279 comments

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1 forever banned  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:12:10pm

movin up! : [Link: www.daypop.com...]

2 vtrtl  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:12:32pm

CBS today announced that they are not stupid, they are liars.

3 Globular Cluster  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:13:49pm

Firtht!

4 Darleen  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:15:19pm

Time to hit them where it really hurts

Start here!

5 [Engineer]  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:16:01pm

I really don't understand what CBS is doing. That the documents are fake is clear so they must be protecting someone. I really don't think CBS themselves created the documents, so the only person that makes sense is John Kerry. They must have gotton the papers from Kerry or, less likely, the DNC. To admit that would kill what little chance Kerry has of winnng the election.

6 FloridaHeat  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:16:07pm
There needs to be an investigation, and the longer CBS stonewalls the worse it’s going to be for them.

Screw CBS, where are the Feds in this?

7 FormerMuslim  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:17:04pm

We should have these controversies more often. I'm learning all kinds of obscure things (kerning, superscript).

There should be one over a math problem. Would help me with my grades.

8 forever banned  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:17:11pm

#3 Globular Cluster , 

Firtht!

Splendid!
Still laughing.

9 Paul  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:18:15pm

Charles (and all you lawyers),

What type of investigation can be initiated against CBS? Can it be forced to reveal its source or is there a First Amendment privlege in this instance?

10 Rainman  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:18:26pm

I wonder how/whether Bob Scheiffer's Sunday show will cover Rathergate.

And how do I do the superscript??

11 Buckaroo  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:20:39pm

Charles, Who should start the investigation? DoJ? FCC? FTC?

Maybe judicialwatch.org (who got the Navy to look at the 1st PH) knows what proper "'lawyer levers" to push ...

12 CCR  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:21:10pm

How do you do supersctript in HTML anyhow?

13 Kustie the Klown  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:22:06pm

Oh my gosh.

I just called home in a vain attempt to get my dad to go next door (where Mary Mapes lives) and try to convince her that at this point she needs to think of herself, and quit CBS and start talking. She is going to go down with the Dan Rather ship--she HAS to know he is permanently radioactive at this point.

She's a good family friend and i'd like to help her out and salvage her career.

But alas, nobody was home.

14 Buckaroo  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:22:08pm

# 10 & #12

IIRC ...

15 Shinken  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:22:11pm

USA Today has extra memo documents!!

CBS had 4 pages.

USA Today has 6, 2 extra pages, dated dated 02 February 1972, and 24 June 1973

[Link: www.usatoday.com...]

16 Shinken  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:22:42pm

Sorry, credit goes to

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

17 CCR  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:22:53pm

On a lighter note

Nooo, I got the dreaded comment #17. I am doomed!.

18 Buckaroo  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:23:05pm

# 14 Goof

< sup >

IIRC ...

19 FloridaHeat  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:23:24pm

Only slightly OT... Drudge has a transcript of Rather defending the documents, saying:

"IN FACT, OTHER BUSH MILITARY RECORDS ALREADY OFFICIALLY RELEASED BY THE WHITE HOUSE ITSELF SHOW THE SAME SUPERSCRIPT."

Does anyone know anything about this? Are those other superscript records available anywhere online for us to examine?

20 resize  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:23:37pm

I really don't understand what CBS is doing. That the documents are fake is clear so they must be protecting someone. I really don't think CBS themselves created the documents, so the only person that makes sense is John Kerry. They must have gotton the papers from Kerry or, less likely, the DNC. To admit that would kill what little chance Kerry has of winnng the election.

I like this!

21 N. O'Brain  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:23:46pm

[Frank J.]

...Karl Rove appeared from the shadows...

[/Frank J.]

I love when he does that.

22 Yankee Yankee Zulu  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:24:49pm

Makes me very glad I get the NY Post and NY Daily News in Beantown. Those are as close to the national news I can get without tossing a brick through the TV set.

Rather is becoming more and more like PT Barnum every day. If anyone is that dumb to believe that type like that existed in 1973, AND that CBS is still denying it and insisting it's true, then the Emperors at the MSM truly have no clothes.

Les Moonves should have a heart to heart with Rather, with two members of HR present, and have two security guards handy so that Rather can be escorted from the building. Rather would be doing the better thing by 'fessing up, telling us it was 'wrong to deceive and mislead the American people by forging documents,' and then resign.

23 anglosaxon510  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:25:39pm

Isn't this kind of forgery a FELONY?

How is it that CBS acts like it's OUR job to prove the docs are fake? HELLO - they're a NEWS ORGANIZATION, it's their job to prove they're legit. Oh but wait, they can't, cuz they said they don't have the originals (the original forgeries, that is).

The burden of proof is on CBS. In the absence of any originals, CASE CLOSED. Forgeries.

24 Colt  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:26:06pm

Charles,

Just wanted to congratulate you on the great job you've done these past years.

25 N. O'Brain  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:26:19pm

Does ayone know if Mary Mapes is related to the Shadout Mapes in "Dune"?

26 Rev. Jay  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:27:09pm

There might be recourse with bother the FCC. CBS is an over-air broadcast channel, which means there is pretty heavy regulations. You aren't going to get their license revoked, but there could be a lot of hell to give them for it.

Also, people could start contacting "60 Minutes" sponsors and complain. It worked with Slim Fast and Whoopi Goldberg.

27 RightIsRight  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:28:12pm

ALLAHU Rather!!

28 Partizaner  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:28:34pm

#7 FormerMuslim

URGENT NEWS RELEASE

CBS News is reporting it has found new documents revealing that John Kerry used his time in Cambodia to:

1 -- solve Fermat's Theorem
2 -- calculate the 10 largest prime numbers.
3 -- prove conclusively that "pi" has a finite value.

Mathematicians, start your explanations!

29 RightIsRight  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:28:38pm

27 th

30 Yankee Yankee Zulu  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:28:40pm

Oops...

'wrong to deceive and mislead the American people by forging documents,'

should read

'wrong to deceive and mislead the American people by insisting that documents that were forgeries were actually authentic.'

Preview is my friend...

31 Wallace  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:29:52pm

This will end up being big media's watergate

Dan never got over flunking out of the marines..

32 AG in Houston  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:31:28pm

Firtht

Now that's what I call entertainment.

CBS will fall rather hard. It will be interesting to see how long they hold out.

33 Gabe Posey  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:31:37pm

New documents reveal Karl Rove ate babies at Passover and Condi Rice spent her morning celebrating the massacre of Rachel Corrie.

/scrawlville.com

After initial review it was confirmed that the 'ground fetus' Karl was said to have eaten was the ground fetus of a chicken and, as it turned out, was served with a side of crispy bacon.

Condi Rice, it has turned out, was just having pancakes.

That is all.

34 mean Gene  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:31:43pm

#19 you can find a good picture of a "th" from the memo compared with the only one from any of the Bush official documents here:

[Link: img.photobucket.com...]


that picture is found here:

[Link: precisetruth.blogspot.com...]

35 andrew2  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:32:14pm

Ask Sandy Berger how serious it is to steal documents from the National Archives. Then you will see that mere forgery with subversive intent will not be taken seriously.

What about hacking a website and posting sensitive info on the net regarding the Republican delegates...still waiting for the FBI to solve the CAIR investigation of the nasty letter on the Moslem's windshield before they get to that.

President Nixon was forced to resign the presidency, when if he simply destroyed the tapes, there would have been no evidence. But rather than put the nation through a Lewinsky style circus, he did what was best for America. and resigned. Given the fact that his presidency was ripe with achievments and knowing what the Democrats pioneered with regard to sliming the office, he should have employed dirtier tricks than he did.

36 killbuckner  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:33:10pm

The June 24th memo has centered text with the supersript th. If this was one a typewriter then that means the header had been typed out every time. And the th would take up different space than the regular sized th and because it is proportionally spaced that should throw off the centering for a typewriter. THis could be a clincher based on what shape of days has already done.

37 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:34:10pm

The thread title reminds me of "Going to the Mattresses" from the "Godfather".


I just hope somebody ambushes Dan Rather at a tollbooth on Long Island.


Next on NASCAR, a tribute to the victims of September 11th.


From Richmond, VA, which is a sister city to the famous Dirtsville, TX of DU fame.

38 BK  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:34:13pm

Dan Rather!

Will not only take down CBS News but will also take down 60 Minutes, and all those fossils need to go.

---

Dear Mr. Rather,

Stick by the story, show all these bloggers who’s boss. They didn't get the DNC Memo or the one from the Kerry people saying to stand by this and they should know better then to go after a fund raiser for the DNC!

Also remember to burn all the FAX and EMAIL records that point back to the DNC and the Kerry people we will fire Wally for his little mistake with Word 2004 (He only got a C in the DNC Document Forgery class 101).

Thanks for all you do Mr. Rather, and I hope you get rewarded from Mr Sorros, again.

Regardsth,

BK

39 Momzilla  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:36:13pm

Good one #27 RightisRight! I liked this one too. heh heh

Relating to the discussion of legal recourse, is there really any unless one of the parties sues? Bush, or even Killian's family might have a case for slander I guess. Can a dead person sue for slander? CBS certainly fraudulently inferred that Col Killian did something illegal or at least dishonorable.

40 Yankee Yankee Zulu  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:37:05pm

#32 AG in Houston:

Makes Janet Jackson's "wardrobe malfunction" look like a slip of the nip.

/rimshot - I'll be here all ze week

41 Craig Abu Al-Boo-Boo  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:37:33pm

Charles,

I think you're right that the forger is probably young, and has never even handled a typewriter. He must have been clueless about the differences between typewritten and word processed documents.

CBS should have had Andy Rooney examine their copies. He still has an old Royal.

42 Pickle  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:38:00pm

Nothing unusual about this. Remember how long it took The Guardian to admit that their obviously faked pictures of "prisoner abuse" were, indeed, fake. They spent several issues defending them as "genuine" before finally admitting it.

43 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:38:01pm

Donald Rumsfeld is speaking as part of NASCAR's 9-11 tribute.

The hicks from Dirtsville are now responding with chants of "USA" to Rummy's remarks.


Rummy is now leading the pledge of allegiance

44 Melissa  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:38:23pm

This is just a theory, but Maj Gen Hodges who CBS was touting as its authentication ace-in-the-hole on Thursday now says he was misled and believes the documents are fake. He was never shown the documents and was told by the TV producer -- I think it was Mary Mapes -- that Killian's remarks were handwritten.

Is it possible that CBS typed these up based on the purported handwritten notes and this is why two of them have no signature? That's not what CBS is saying in its obvious stonewalling, but is it possible that this is what really happened?

45 andrew2  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:38:30pm

If the document won't superscript, you must acquit.

J.C.

46 LesLein  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:39:50pm

#15 --

Today's Washington Times has authentic examples of Lt Col Killian's memo. They don't match the one on the memo dated 04 May 1972.

And the dating styles on the memo are inconsistent. The date at the top is "04 May 1972". The date in the body of the memo is "14 May, 1970". I don't think the military normally uses commas in dates.

Is it legitimate for a reserve fighter squadron to have a regular post office box? Especially one numbered "34567"? Shouldn't they have a military postal address.

47 jonturner  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:39:55pm

So here's how this one gets resolved:

Right this minute, Rather/DNC/Snakehead&Company is having a set of documents typed on 1973-era typewriters with the proper routing block, signatures, etc.; they will create a proper forgery.

This new fake will be produced by Rather with the explanation that the MSWord version was a "modern transcript", retyped for the convenience of the CBS staff and viewers since the originals were damaged/too difficult to read on TV screens/other.

In other words, they did this to better serve us, the viewing public.

Or I could just be a paranoid nut listening on the wrong frequency, Kenneth.

48 DANEgerus  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:40:37pm

Like Chris Lehane and his parrot Terry McAuliffe had nothing to do with this as we find them on point blaming Karl Rove?

49 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:40:47pm

I posted the link to this quote on previous thread, but in case you wonder why I call Dirty Dan "Dan "$1000 a Plate DemoncRatic Party Fundraiser" Rather:

Over the last decade, major anchors, editors and reporters have attended fundraisers for liberal interest groups. Transafrica has drawn Bernard Shaw, Bryant Gumbel and Ted Koppel. The Children's Defense Fund drew Roger Rosenblatt and Jane Pauley. ABC's Carole Simpson headlined a fundraiser for the NAACP Legal Defense Fund. Some are even revealed to donate to Democrats.

Dan Rather's transgression is in another league altogether. He's the only major figure to star at an event that says, "Please join us for an evening with DAN RATHER" that comes with an RSVP envelope asking for $1,000 for the Democratic Party.

An anchor who cares one iota about the appearance of impartiality -- and one has to assume Rather cares -- couldn't do much worse for his image than this.

This isn't the first time Rather's sympathy for Democrats of the Texas variety has led him to a fundraiser. In November of 1988, gossip columnist Liz Smith reported a "gang got together" in New York City and "gathered up money in buckets" for Ann Richards' (eventually successful) 1990 run for governor. Richards had just delighted journalists that summer with her wisecracking about George Bush being born with a silver foot in his mouth. Among the guests at the Richards shindig: Rather and his wife, Jean.

50 killbuckner  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:41:08pm

Just completing the thought. That would mean centering a proportionally typed font with a font size change right in the middle. If Word matches up on that new text it is going to be really hard to explain away.

51 Zack  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:41:16pm

The bottom line is no media accountability. Because any deaths resulting from their misinformation are not directly attributable to them, journalists can propagandize with impunity.

Since their misinformation does in some cases encourage terrorism and lead to unnecessary deaths (Israel is a good example), it is only a matter of time before armed citizens begin to regard propagandizing reporters as enemy combatants.

That would be most unfortunate and regrettable.

52 bigel[deleted]  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:41:16pm
53 andrew2  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:41:26pm

If the typewriter superscrpts, you must acquit.

J.C.

:-o

54 dazoid81  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:42:27pm

44 - Melissa

the thought has crossed my mind, but then why let Terry Mac get on tv and say it was a Karl Rove plot to make the dems look stupid? Why not take out the handwritten notes that they'd have had to seen in order to type it up? The other possibility I'd thought of, was what if someone in the 80's or 90's found this, and typed it up and put it back in the file? Of course, there's still a few things that dont fit with that; 1)how did they find an apparently secret file, and why did they hide it again? 2)The signature, must have be copied and pasted in via computer, which would probably be not nice according to rules. 3)said person would probably still be around and most likely able to step forward and say they know something about these docs.

55 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:43:39pm

F-16s just did a flyover, jet exhaust glowing orange in the Virginia night.

Of course, despite its proximity to NYC and DCA, I guess Richmond is "Flyover Country", like all those small towns in Texas despised by the regulars at DU.

If you want to get your blood pressure dangerously high, I'd recommend a visit to the first thread of the day and a visit to the DU page Charles linked to.

56 EddieP  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:45:08pm

Delirious Dan is going to take the pipe for his beloved Terry McAwful. Whatta guy!

57 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:45:37pm

This evening, CBS repeated the Boston Globe's now-discredited assertion that document expert Philip Bouffard had endorsed the authenticity of the documents.
The Globe itself has not addressed Bouffard's recantation.
AP has still not formally retracted their provably false claim that Republicans booed the announcement of Clinton's surgery, they have not identified the reporter who originated the hoax or indicated any action against him or her, and many MSM websites retain the story as fact.
I also ran across a good example of a lefty "incidental-lie" of the kind so favored by academic and media activists:
In an anti-Bush editorial today, Cynthia Tucker of Atlanta Journal Constitution asserted that the US offensive in Fallujah this spring followed the "discovery" of the mutilated and burned bodies of four American contractors. The incident of course was videotaped and widely reported before what was left of the bodies was even recovered. Tucker's little lie invites doubt about what happened and possibly even the identity of the perpetrators.
(Also posted here for those who don't want to register.)

Big Media malfeasance and dishonesty are completely out of control, beyond what even I had thought possible.

58 wienerschnitzel dieb  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:46:02pm

Sorry to go OT everyone...

I know that Kerry once linked to the DU, but Ive not been able to find the link while recently searching his site. Does anyone know if they've been de-linked? Or am I just looking in the wrong place? Any help would be... well... helpful. I need this for a print out I plan on making in order to show more moderate (or sadly ignorant) friends just what kind of people are supporting Kerry.

Thanks,
Die Uber Dieb

59 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:47:32pm

Bigel


I think you are 100% correct.

60 zulubaby  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:47:55pm

Arabs and Muslims see US victory, own defeat on Sept 11 anniversary

"The events of September 11 were a minor crisis that the Americans have turned into a global crisis," according to conservative Iranian Mahmud Mohammadi, vice president of the parliamentary foreign affairs committee.
The liberal newspaper Nahdat Misr daily ran a headline: "Arabs are the only people in the world paying the bill for September 11".

Besides being the whiniest people in the world, they're also the most selfish. It's all about them, as usual.

61 Buckaroo  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:49:09pm

# 60 zb

"Arabs are the only people in the world paying the bill for September 11".


That's called JUSTICE you nimrods ...
:-~

62 JWM  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:49:54pm

Somewhere Richard Nixon is smiling.

Stonewall, Dan baby. Stonewall.
JWM

63 JohnAnnArbor  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:50:09pm

The easiness of duping CBS "News" reminded me of something.

I recently read a book called The Double-Cross System, which was about how the Brits would take German spies in Britain and "turn" them into working for the British during WW2. This was not an easy task. They decided to try to protect their real agents by taking an agent that was of little use to them and blowing his cover, thereby reassuring the Germans that Germany was able to ferret out double-agents.

No matter how many obvious mistakes this agent made, the Germans kept believing in him and the veracity of his reports! The British were astonished that the Germans were so completely taken in by their double agents, no matter what mistakes (intentional or not) they made.

64 Carl in Jerusalem  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:50:38pm

More power to you Charles for pursuing this, but Idiotarian of the Year? I think Michael Moore has that award in a landslide this year...

65 Rosemarie  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:50:52pm

#26...

It would be more satisfying if Charles and the blogosphere win this argument on the wrestling mat of logic, using the roll up of reason, instead of resorting to sponsor boycott. Sure, lots of people would join in a boycott, but in the end, I'd like to hear Rather say "uncle" and admit he's wrong on the facts.

Surely the military or the National Guard has a stake in finding out if someone has been forging military documents. Will they investigate?

66 NW Mike  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:51:20pm

#28 Partizaner

URGENT NEWS RELEASE

CBS News is reporting it has found new documents revealing that John Kerry used his time in Cambodia to:

1 -- solve Fermat's Theorem
2 -- calculate the 10 largest prime numbers.
3 -- prove conclusively that "pi" has a finite value.

Mathematicians, start your explanations!


Christ, now I have to find my 1968 version of MS Excel.

67 hepcat  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:51:25pm

Stay tuned to:
SeeB.S.

68 Buckaroo  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:52:14pm

# 65 R

There are reports the Pentagon has made a statement, but I haven't yet seen a link ...

69 andrew2  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:52:48pm

Bigel #52

"The only way to change CBS News is for them to be bought out by a conservative, who fires the entire News Division and brings some people on board who are neither mentally nor morally challenged."

Like a Howard Beale, a mad prophet of the airways who will tell it like it is.

70 GreenBear  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:53:09pm

Its OK, all they need to do is forge a receipt for a $100,000 typesetting machine backdated to 1972 and they're golden...

GB

71 gymnast  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:53:18pm

Charles, I dont know about going to the mats but it sure does seem that CBS is going to the matrasses in the manner of the thugs in the movie "The Godfather". The news mafiosos may think of themselves as untouchables but in reality they bring to mind the Indian caste system and the former Brahmins are about to take their place at the bottom of the heap. Look for the advertisers who support the steaming pile known as CBS News to pull out or become tainted. Which of the "newsliner" CBS passengers will be the first into the lifeboats, the women and children, or the bilge rats?

72 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:54:41pm

Carl in Jerusalem


I believe "Idiotarian" is reserved for useful idiots. Mike al-Moor is evil, a liar, and a committed Marxist, but I don't know if he qualifies as a useful idiot.


The tards at DU who believe Bush is both a retarded monkey and Adolf Hitler would be good examples of idiotarians, ditto Rachel Corrie.


Back after first caution.

74 Dar ul Harbarian  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:56:59pm

Frothing hilarity from the left

ATTACK!

Democrats! In the name of God, attack! Here's what you need to say: Thousands of people are dead because of Bush! Bush is a traitor to America! And so are his supporters!

Attack! Attack! Attack!

Being critical isn't enough. Being "tough" isn't enough. Taking the high ground won't work. There is no high ground! You can't let Michael Moore and that Eli from Moveon.org guy who sends too many e-mails do your dirty work. Attack! Get dirty! Dick Cheney sucks cocks in hell!

Senator Kerry, you are all that stands between us and the theocratic fascism. I don't care if it diminishes you. You have to stoop to their level. You HAVE to fucking win. You HAVE to. Do you understand? Attack!

Attack!

Attack!

ATTACK!

75 JWM  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:57:26pm

CBS is already toast on the Blogosphere. They need to be called out by their own fellows in the broadcasting industry. I would love to see NBC and ABC get into a watergate style media feeding frenzy as they cannibalize their incautious neighbor.
JWM

76 Bob G.  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:57:39pm

Dan "I am not a schnook" Rather.

77 LesLein  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:57:43pm

CBS even got a name wrong. See Instapundit.

78 Gretchen  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:57:58pm

Okay, we have undecided voters to worry about. The LLL will believe nothing bad about the MSM and nothing good about Bush so forget them.

I say CBS should hold out as long as possible. Drudge gets 10 million hits a day a LGF got 100K on Friday. This will end up looking bad for the Dems and media - the public already distrusts media. In addition, undecideds aren't going to vote on actual issues. The Republicans will treat this like the SBVs, and Bush will look presidential, Kerry and the Democrats will look rabid. I hope Carville is on every Sunday show in the morning.

Furthermore, the pictures the news channels show repeatedly of Bush in the TANG are movie star GEORGEous. Although irrational, this will influence the female undecideds. I have a theory about the attractiveness of candidates in Presidential elections:

Reagan/Carter
Reagan/Mondale
Bush/Dukakis
Bush/Clinton
Clinton/Dole
Bush/Gore

Every election since Reagan the better looking, more physically attractive/charming guy won. Most people don't follow issues and politics closely, and some of them vote for the guy who looks the part.

79 papijoe  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:58:09pm

The AP is still running with the memo story as if nothing happened.

US Servicemen react to Bush memos

Elephant? What elephant?

80 Buckaroo  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:58:11pm

# 74 Dar

"theocratic fascism"

If you look up "180 deg. out of phase" in the dictionary, you get this post ...
:-0

81 Colt  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:58:58pm

#74 Dar ul Harbian

Senator Kerry, you are all that stands between us and the theocratic fascism.

The irony...

82 prince of leaves  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:59:19pm

"At some point..."

That point would be November 3, 2004 or sometime after.

I discovered this week that "Air America" is now available in my neck of the woods, and listened to the charming and talented Randi Rhodes (sp?) discuss the events of the week. Before the memos came out, her hobby horse was the hate-filled Republicans, their "four-day hate" last week, and how hate-filled, hateful, and hate-spewing they are in general...and then she followed this up with her wish that they be removed from office "for starters", with no doubt left to the listener as to her desires to do much more than that (hypocrisy, anyone?).

On Thursday, when the memo forgery story was buzzing about, there was NO mention of it on her show (at least the part I listened to), the airtime instead devoted to rehashing and misrepresenting Cheney's comments earlier in the week (take: Cheney must have some control over the occurrence and timing of terrorist attacks against the US to have made such a bold statement that could otherwise later blow up, so to speak, in his face).

Friday, I finally heard her mention the documents, but only to dismiss them as irrelevant to the implications of the charges. That is, so what if the documents are forgeries (not that she was admitting that they were), as the rest of the story is on solid enough ground. Besides, even if the documents were forgeries (not that she was admitting that they were), what does it say about the Bushhitler that the content of the forgeries (not that she was admitting that that's what they were) was so totally believable and was going unchallenged?

Looks like we have a variation of the old "it's not the strength of the evidence but the seriousness of the charge" BS at work here.

83 Buckaroo  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 2:59:30pm

Who-hoo! I beat Colt to the draw!
:-)
:-)

84 evariste  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:00:51pm

bigel! It is so good to have you back. Good to see you :-)

85 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:01:05pm

Todd Bodine, frequently the first caution, is the first caution in a one car accident.

86 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:03:05pm

Better Howard Beale than Joseph Goebbels, which is what we have now.

These corporate monopolists are not the free press.

Their power and control, including their control over journalism education and their support for totalitarian political ideology are the antithesis of a free press.

87 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:05:50pm

PapiJoe


That AP story is featured prominently on the ABCNews web site.


Meanwhile, re: cat 5 165 mph/270km/hr Ivan, latest

ETA model looks scary for Mobile, AL

As seen here, if Ivan heads more west (towards Pensacola or Mobile) it will remain over very high ocanic heat content sea water.


A hit east of Cape San Blas probably only a Cat 2 or Cat 3, a hit further west towards Mobile could be a Cat 4 or Cat 5.

88 Abu Al-Poopypants  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:06:52pm

Oh, yeah?
PLASTIC TURKEY!! PLASTIC TURKEY!!

booga booga booga!!!

89 Athos  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:07:15pm

Catching up...#52 Bigel

Well Said

90 Buckaroo  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:08:00pm

# 88

alternately -- SHRUB! CHIMP! BOY EMPEROR!
:-)

91 killbuckner  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:08:07pm

Hey charles, if you are still reading this, how about trying to match up the header on the new June 24th memo with the superscript and the centered text. Based on the work the shade of days guy already did, this could be pretty conclusive. The difference between spelling the th out and using the superscript would throw off a typewriter using proportionally spaced fonts but word will do it perfectly. Of course at this point it is just piling on, but as long as people are throwing this wall up we need to keep hammering away.

92 FloridaHeat  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:12:39pm

#34 mean Gene

Thanks. Just what I was looking for. :)

93 Patrizio  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:14:13pm

I disagree with saying the media buried the Swift Boat veterans' story. It has been covered more than enough. If it had been covered from the very beginning, you would've had complaints from the Left that the Vets were getting undue attention. After all, they were and still are a minor operation in terms of publicity and money involved. Instead, the press waited to substantiate their validity as a factor in the election and properly covered them.

Having said that, the importance given to these documents does seem to be bigger than the one the Veterans got initially. The scandal regarding them being forgeries, however, is what really brought them to people's attention. The people responsible for these forgeries will eventually be discovered. The reputation of CBS will be damaged, that of Charles will be improved. The Democrats will have some awkward moments if their hands are traced directly to this, and the Bush campaign will as usual lay low and laugh it up in private, the way it should be.

Personally, if I were to point out the one major news item that has been blown out of proportion, it'd be the Abu Ghraib abuses and pictures.

I'd like to finish this post by saying that both stories and scandals about the pasts of both George Bush and John Kerry are irrelevant. It shouldn't matter whether the specifics of their actions back then are accurate or not. George Bush did not serve in Viet Nam, John Kerry did. The latter got a bunch of condecorations for it, the former obviously didn't. WHO CARES??

Bush has been an excellent President, and more importantly: he has set a vision for the future. Elections shouldn't be referendums on sitting Presidents only because they happen to be already in office. Much less about the pasts of the candidates. It's about presenting a clear diagnosis of the present and ideas for the future to the voters. Bush has clearly done so: as he himself says, everybody knows where he stands.

Kerry, on the other hand, has utterly failed in that effort, and that is why he's going to lose the election by an unexpectedly large margin of around 8%.

94 zulubaby  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:14:32pm

Dar ul Harbarian (#74)

Half-way through the column (I can't believe I just read that!) he writes:

That was the moment when I knew that we were going to lose.

That's the reason he's frothing.

Read what he wrote, his unhinged ranting -- that is what the democratic party is today. Absolute raving lunatics.

95 ted  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:14:37pm

The pressure wil build on Rather and CBS: I predict Rather will stonewall for 2 weeks then be forced to resign...

96 bfried  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:14:41pm

"But regardless of the stupidity of the perpetrator(s), using fraudulent documents to influence a presidential election is very serious business. There needs to be an investigation, and the longer CBS stonewalls the worse it’s going to be for them".

Stop right there!

Think of what the organized Press is trying to do!

Main purpose --- Make sure that Bush does not get re elected!

Do you think that they care what methods are used to unseat him?

An investigation will take place ( if ever ) after the Election when it will be too late. It will be over and Bush will be the President.

CBS = Completely Biased Service.

CBS has lost their objective purpose in "Informing the Public".

97 M. Simon  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:16:26pm

This is not an accident.

It is part of a plan that is not working.

98 LSD  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:18:04pm

Omar Bakri is on Heartland FNC, and he is just double-talking, manipulating, and avoiding every question.

He needs to be jailed...NOW

99 killbuckner  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:18:25pm

I think it might be time to get everyone out with a digital camera to find your local CBS affiliate and take a picture with the C covered up. (of course leaving the BS prominent) What could people cover the C with to raise awareness of this issue?

101 zulubaby  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:23:33pm

LSD, who was that!?

102 Agnoton  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:24:57pm

Everyone at CBS knows these are fake. They're playing dumb to protect themselves; i.e. if they admit too quickly that they were rooked so easily, it will look very badly, and possibly have serious legal repercussions, for them.

103 Abu Al-Poopypants  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:25:16pm

ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF BLATANTLY PARTISAN REPORTING FROM THE EFFING BOSTON GLOBE*:

In the main page of today's online Politics section, they have a little sidebar:

---
A look at the candidates and their military service

Questions surround George W. Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard.
Read more

A focus of his campaign, John Kerry's Vietnam service has come under attack.
Read more
---

You see? There are "questions" about Bush's service, and the sainted war hero John Kerry is "under attack".


* In the interests of full disclosure, I feel that i must reveal that my parrot uses the Boston Globe for a toilet.

104 Right Brain  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:25:19pm

There are several other glaring errors evident to a practiced eye in these forged documents and these come from me interviewing two retired soldiers, both Colonels, who served and wrote documents during the early 70's.

1) " Lt. Colonel" as is on the documents is incorrect, it is either "Lt Col" with no periods, or "Lieutenant Colonel"

2) No commander would ever sign anything that did not have his title on it, which some of these do not.

3) After one's rank one is obligated to list your commissioning source, such USAF, or the like. One would never write just "Lt Col," of what?

4) Texas Air National Guard is abbreviated TANG, not TexANG.

Not look closely they both wrote out for me the only way that a Colonel would sign his name:

JERRY B. KILLIAN, Lt Col, TANG
Commander

Also they pointed out that dates are stamped, never typed, and they began using four digit years in 2000.

105 bigel[deleted]  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:25:31pm
106 M. Simon  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:26:32pm

#78 Gretchen:

Anecdotal Evidence

107 Right Brain  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:27:04pm

Should read "now look closely"

108 Melissa  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:27:13pm

What we need at this point is an honest newsman to come forward -- either anonymously or on the record -- to fill us in on how this forgery went down.

Did CBS forge the documents?
Did the Kerry campaign forge the documents?
Did the Kerry campaign forward the forged documents to CBS?

Someone knows what happened. Hopefully, that someone has a conscience, a shred of journalistic integrity (we hear so much about but never actually see), and a desire not to go down with the ship.

109 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:27:54pm

My power blinked for about a minute.


Had my computer yell at me for shutting it down wrong.


I hate it when it does that. It wasn't my fault.

on my second Miller Lite.

110 struan al kufr  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:28:43pm

TEST!

111 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:29:20pm
112 LSD  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:30:22pm
113 bigel[deleted]  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:30:25pm
114 struan al kufr  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:30:50pm

Alll riiight!

Look out - ole Mackey's back in town!

-:)

115 2X4 wielder  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:31:40pm

#58 wienerschnitzel dieb -- the URL where they used to link to the DU was blog.johnkerry.com but they have changed the format of the page and don't seem to link to anybody anymore. They are probably afraid to link to the crazies that support them. Compare their new page with one from months ago that was saved by the Wayback Machine.

116 Yankee Zionist  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:32:14pm

A few hours ago I called up the local CBS TV affiliate to complain and got the news desk. I told them that I was furious with CBS for standing by the documents; they are obvious frauds.

The kid on the other end of the phone said then why are the papers saying they are authentic. The New York Times the Globe and the Herald, he said were saying the documents were real. I later read the herald, it only repeated CBS's assertions.

I said the documents were obvious frauds. He asked if I wanted to be put over to the complaint line and I said, no, but I just wanted you to know that you work for a liar. Thanks very much he said.

In a few days, the network will cave. And I'll be calling back.

117 bigel[deleted]  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:32:45pm
118 zulubaby  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:33:11pm

LSD, thanks. I had just put the tv on and caught the very end of it. It annoys me that the media invites these lunatics on as guests, as if they're reasonable people.

119 rosh  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:34:09pm

I just typed the 19 May 1972 doc for myself in Word. I advise everyone to try it.
It's amazingly powerful to watch the lines break by themselves exactly as in the pdf I downloaded from CBS.
In fact you could do this at work Monday morning as a dog and pony show. It would totally get the point across.

120 Bruce Lagasse  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:34:24pm

" I think Michael Moore has that award in a landslide this year... "

In all honesty, Michael Moore wins ANY award in a landslide (so long as the law of gravity is still in operaton).

121 Buckaroo  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:36:15pm

# 109 Ed

To the victims of 9/11/01, my they rest in peace and may we continue to honor their memory by prosecuting the WoT

Salud!!

122 Ghost  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:36:39pm

Old farts like Rather just don't understand the internet... what it is, let alone how big and influential it is. He thinks that only a few hundred people are watching and analyzing, and he has no comprehension of the SPEED at which news travels over it. I wonder how many times CBS has got away with stuff like this in the past... before the internet made it easy for average joes to get a closeup look at their "proof".

Anyway, this is a very serious matter. I hope everyone contacts their representatives in Washington demanding an investigation into this use of forgery in an attempt to influence a presidential election. An easy way to contact them is through Townhall

123 zulubaby  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:39:54pm

Yankee Zionist (#116)

The New York Times the Globe and the Herald, he said were saying the documents were real.

Did they get Jayson Blair to do the research?

124 Deus ex Macrame  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:41:23pm

My theory: CBS' source for this was the same as their source for Abu Ghraib, so they had no reason to (in their view) to question the authenticity too much. Someone pointed out earlier that the producer for both segments was the same -- a woman named Mary Mapes.

Just a theory, but it would explain a lot. And I agree with Charles that the person who actually created the documents was a complete nitwit who had no idea how easy it would be to peg them as fakes. They no doubt thought that they were helping out the Kerry campaign. Somehow, they got the documents into the food chain and they made their way up to CBS.

If Rather's daughter were in that chain somewhere, it would also explain the bizarre and indefensible stonewalling going on over there.

125 Right Brain  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:41:49pm

#122 I think you hit the nail on the head, in the past what recourse would we have had? Calling the station to complain? Only when one of their major media broke lockstep with an obvious fraud, such as Stern's 1983 Hitler diaries, do we hear of this. Dan Rather et al think this is going away, its going to snow him until he recants.

126 zulubaby  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:43:59pm

Deus ex Macrame (#124)

If Rather's daughter were in that chain somewhere, it would also explain the bizarre and indefensible stonewalling going on over there.

Yes. We still don't know who the source was, do we?

127 Birdgunner  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:44:23pm

More good news; Allahpundit has a link showing that two of the six docs were dated on, respectively, a Saturday and a Sunday.

I'm an assiduous army guy, but even I don't work on Sundays. But apparently not only Killian but also the entire TANG did in 1973. I particularly like the line from the memo that says: "Harris took the call from Group today", which is dated 18 Aug 73 - a Saturday. And the official memo Killian allegedly signed to his superior on 24 Jun 73 - a Sunday. So not only Killian, but his CO and the whole Group worked weekends.

(Ahh, says Rather, but maybe he typed the memos on the IBM Selectric Composer he had at home...sorry, Gonzo, it won't wash. You're burned. BURNED!)

So much for Karl Rove setting this one up. This whole episode smacks more of Maxwell Smart than Machiavelli. In fact, it's starting to look like "The Three Stooges, in 'Forgery Follies'".

Everybody do your bit - email CBS. If they're not held to account they might try to brazen their way through this. They must not be allowed to do so. I hereby pledge to send them a s***-o-gram daily until Blather goes on the air and offers an abject, unqualified apology to the American people and to President Bush.

- Birdgunner

128 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:44:55pm

As much as I hate to play Devil's Advocate, fairness insists that I point out the ONE reason Karl Rove or other RNC person MIGHT have been the "source" of the forgeries: read the Agatha Christie short story, "The Augean Stabes."

IF this were a similar case, I would guess the reason would be not to distract from negative info about President Bush but to discredit CBS and the DNC.

And I love it. I don't actually believe this to be true, but in a small way I wish it were; Dan Rather is a victim of his own hubris.

It sickens me that Kerry is making a point about how Preident Bush got "special treatment" to get into TANG, but conveniently forgets that Clinton ADMITTED pulling strings to go to Oxford where he frittered away two years without earning an advanced degree as most Rhodes Scholars do. I know that for a fact because I worked at Oxford University in the early 90s and checked the records.

129 justdanny  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:45:19pm

These are bad days.

130 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:45:36pm

OT, but a real eye-popper, from Al Guardian no less:

One of Mike Al-Moor's minutemen cheerfully admits to racist motivations.

Black soldiers are a particular target. 'To have Negroes occupying us is a particular humiliation,' Abu Mujahed said, echoing the profound racism prevalent in much of the Middle East. 'Sometimes we aborted a mission because there were no Negroes.'


Abu also admitted to being directly incited by media stories emphasizing civilian casualties. These passages are naturally buried well down in the story.

131 zulubaby  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:48:00pm
In addition to challenging the central premise of the CBS report - that his father felt pressured to cover up Bush's allegedly subpar Guard performance - Gary Killian urged Mapes to interview Dean Roome, who roomed with Bush during his time in the Guard.
Ms. Mapes explained that "60 Minutes" had already conducted the interview but was unlikely to include Roome's account in its report, telling Killian Jr.: "We think he is pretty pro-Bush."
132 [Mark]  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:48:25pm

From the NY Times:

Mr. Kerry's "character has been damaged," said one ranking campaign official, speaking on condition of anonymity. "And the campaign failed to defend the guy. We're in a tough spot. Some of the work we do on George Bush has to come from other parties.'

Hmmm...I wonder who they may have in mind?

133 Thom  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:48:56pm

Where's Fat Clemenza?

Make sure they're clean 'cause those guys are gonna be up there a while.

They're clean - they told me they exterminate them.

Exterminate?! That's a bad word to use. Watch out we don't exterminate you!

You think that's funny or what?

134 john blake  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:49:16pm

I heard a caller to Hugh Hewitt comment on the probability of legal action. He said that a federal crime would be hard to prosecute as the forgeries were not done on military letter head. Hugh admitted that was a good point. If those lousy forgers had been a little more authentic...

135 peace be upon me  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:49:31pm

OT
Arab academics still blame US/Israel for 9-11:

[Link: www.crosswalk.com...]

136 RickZ  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:50:59pm

# 127 birdgunner:

More good news; Allahpundit has a link showing that two of the six docs were dated on, respectively, a Saturday and a Sunday.

It was an Air National Guard unit. Weekend warriors. The weekend dates do not signify anything other than they were open for business on the weekend, which one would expect.

137 Sarah D.  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:51:56pm

#127 Birdgunner

The guard drills on the weekends. One weekend a month. Were the dates from more than one weekend in a month?

Just pointing that out.

138 bigel[deleted]  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:52:28pm
139 Freelance  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:53:34pm

Charles,

There have been many stories/theories/comments on the originality of the CBS documents.

I downloaded the docs from the CBS website and, hoping to find the NAME of the original author, by examining the SOURCE of the docs, sadly found that they were all created by the same anonymous person, on the same anonymous machine.

For example:

BushGuardaugust1.pdf
2004-09-08T21:07:39-04:00
2004-09-08T21:07:04-04:00
Acrobat 5.0 Image Conversion Plug-in for Windows
Acrobat 5.0 Image Conversion Plug-in for Windows

BushGuardaugust18.pdf
2004-09-08T21:07:59-04:00
2004-09-08T21:07:48-04:00
Acrobat 5.0 Image Conversion Plug-in for Windows
Acrobat 5.0 Image Conversion Plug-in for Windows

BushGuardmay19.pdf
2004-09-08T21:08:15-04:00
2004-09-08T21:08:07-04:00
Acrobat 5.0 Image Conversion Plug-in for Windows
Acrobat 5.0 Image Conversion Plug-in for Windows

BushGuardmay4.pdf
2004-09-08T21:08:32-04:00
2004-09-08T21:08:23-04:00
Acrobat 5.0 Image Conversion Plug-in for Windows
Acrobat 5.0 Image Conversion Plug-in for Windows

It is quite clear from the document's sources, that these docs were all created on the same day, within minutes of each other.

In every case, the CBS Documents were created on September 8, 2004.

Would it be too difficult for someone to subpeona or otherwise request, that the original documents be made available to the public?

140 zulubaby  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:55:35pm

October 29, 1999

An appeals court granted a temporary delay Friday to a CBS News producer faced with having to turn over a transcript of a complete interview with a dragging death defendant or go to jail.

Mary Mapes was subpoenaed last week and ordered to hand over a transcript and outtakes from Dan Rather's interview with Shawn Allen Berry that aired Sept. 28 on "60 Minutes II."

141 Sarah D.  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:56:48pm

Yet another blast on the Rather debacle.

Was CBS the duper, or the dupee?

142 Rayra[deleted]  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:56:54pm
143 justdanny  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:57:24pm

OuTta the loop

The Military records of George Walker Bush.

gif. images of originals

144 rosh  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:57:32pm

#139 Freelance
That only proves that they were scanned and converted to PDF at the same time.

I assume that "Image Conversion Plug-in" indicated that they were scanned.

Say after being run through a dirty copier a couple times.

145 [Engineer]  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:57:42pm

#136 RickZ

It was an Air National Guard unit. Weekend warriors. The weekend dates do not signify anything other than they were open for business on the weekend, which one would expect.

That is correct for the Army, but at least some Air Guard units are different. In Hawaii, the Air Guard is tasked with the air defense of the Islands and operates 24/7/365.

146 zulubaby  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 3:58:09pm
DAN RATHER: I believe in the rule of law deeply and completely. And that's the reason we're here today, because an important principle is involved, and it's the principle of the public's right--not the press--but the public's right to have a free and independent press.
147 Buckaroo  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:01:29pm

# 145 [E

That would explain the occasional sight of F-15s screaming out of Hickam at afterburner on weeknights ..
:-)

148 Birdgunner  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:02:21pm

136 RickZ, 137 SarahD,

Roger and thanks - good catch. I forgot about the weekend parades. Just thinking like a regular army guy, I guess. But then shouldn't all six of the memo dates track out to weekends? I don't know whether they do or not, just asking.

- Birdgunner

149 [Engineer]  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:02:31pm

#139 Freelance

The "Image Conversion Plug-in" tag means they were scaned or converted from a fax image or image file (jpg or similar)

150 transient  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:04:58pm

Charles, keep up the pressure!

I can't believe Kerry is personally involved. There has to be plausible deniability, but it doesn't matter. If someone even connected with the campaign is involved with this, it will hurt him.

I'm not a lawyer but I don't think CBS can be forced to reveal their source--recall how hard it's been to get journalists to reveal who leaked the name of the CIA agent (Wilson's wife).

But it begs the question...CBS is under no ethical requirement to protect the name of a source that lied to them. So if they know the documents are forged and still refuse to release the source, they are hiding something for sure.

#25 N O brain (sorry, my keyboard is from 1804 and I don't have apostrophes, except some places where I do): LOL.

Test
Great.
Now how do I do strikethrough (not to mention French accents?)

151 Mashiki  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:05:19pm

What a pathetic excuse for a news service these individuals are. The FEC and FCC should be involved in this, I'd agree with what you are saying Charles...this reeks of election tampering.

#146 zulubaby: Shows exactly what type of bottom feeding wretch Rather really is.

152 munchkin  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:08:24pm

anyone wanna give linkies for hot young prez pics?

153 oldtimer  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:09:10pm

Probably been done already but:

Bozell: CBS Must Come Clean
on Fraudulent Memos

Statement by Media Research Center President Brent Bozell
on the CBS News/National Guard Document Scandal

“CBS News must come clean on this document scandal broken by CNSNews.com, and must fully expose whoever is responsible for perpetrating this character assassination attempt on the President of the United States. If CBS felt it had an obligation to disclose information that might destroy President Bush, they have a double obligation to disclose whoever tried to employ them as accomplices in this character assassination attempt.

“We do not believe Dan Rather and CBS were willing accomplices in this fraud. We do believe they were duped, duped by blind hostility against President Bush. It took CNSNews.com only minutes to run the documents by three typography experts, all of whom immediately found them to be flawed. Why didn’t CBS do the same?

“CBS must report tonight how they got these documents and who provided them.”

154 steve miller  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:09:32pm

freelance, what did you use to examine the PDFs? Did you use Distiller to open them?

OT question - what about contacting MS and finding out their response to the linespacing/letterspacing? Was Word designed to mimic typeWRITERS in this way? IIRC, Word was designed to mimic the functionality of the typewriter combined with the intelligent layout of the screen/printer. Back in the 80s, Word's main competitor was WordPerfect, and they were out to match WPs functionality.

Typewriters themselves were an interesting tool, but IMHO Word/WordPerfect weren't trying to slavishly emulate the typewriter. And in ways where it made sense, they didn't. E.g., wordwrap, which makes sense on a word processor, isn't like a typewriter.

Funny how no news agency has contacted MS for an official response about this.

155 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:09:53pm

Engineer


I could be wrong, but weren't the F-16s that flew out of Otis on September 11 ANG?

That wasn't a weekend.

156 TomVeal  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:10:03pm

Though the material for theorizing about the culprits is limited, I've constructed what is, I believe, a credible hypothesis that doesn't ignore Ockham's Razor. [Link: stromata.typepad.com...] Criticisms and alternatives are welcome.

157 [Engineer]  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:10:31pm

#148 Birdgunner

But then shouldn't all six of the memo dates track out to weekends? I don't know whether they do or not, just asking.

I check one of the docs and it was a weekday.

Some questions come to mind:

1. Doesn't the Guard have full time staff?

2.Was Lt Col Killian a full time staff officer? Did he work weekends at all?

158 Melissa  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:11:05pm

TANG, from what I have read, was not a weekend warrior group. It was an interceptor squadron that wasn't organized around weekend drills. I've read so much about this subject now that I feel I could be hired by a consultant to CBS News. God knows they need one.

justdanny (#129)

Please elaborate. Don't leave us wondering.

159 Buckaroo  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:11:44pm

# 152 m

Well, cbsnews.com has some, if you're willing to visit ..
:-)

160 Throbert McGee  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:11:54pm
#130 Shiplord Kirel, quoting the Guardian:

Black soldiers are a particular target. 'To have Negroes occupying us is a particular humiliation,' Abu Mujahed said, echoing the profound racism prevalent in much of the Middle East.

Another sad legacy of Euro-American colonialism...

/LLL

161 rosh  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:13:25pm

Jouranlism ethics guidelines from Poynter Institute:
[Link: www.poynter.org...]

162 Sarah D.  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:13:41pm

#148 Birdgunner

The Guard has many full time folks. They work regular hours, plus the once a month drill.

163 [Engineer]  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:13:52pm

#155 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C

I could be wrong, but weren't the F-16s that flew out of Otis on September 11 ANG?

Don't know. I only know about the Hawaii Guard because I was involved with Civil Defense planing there in the '80's

164 Buckaroo  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:16:13pm

# 156 T V

Well, most of it squares with the Spectator's "CBS had these for six weeks" report, so who knows?

165 newscaper  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:16:32pm

#87, Ed Moran

SHIT, Ed!!!

I'm in Mobile. We haven't had a true ass-kicking by a hurricane since 1979 with Frederick -- I was a high school freshman at the time.

For the last 5 years when all the more substantial storms went to New Orleans, or over near Pensacola, I've said to my wife "Each near miss makes me feel like its gonna be really bad when our numbers up -- we've had too much good luck and are way overdue for one."

166 BornAgainRep  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:16:37pm

The more clues that come out showing these papers to be forgeries the more I'm convinced someone set up CBS. CBS, along with other MSM, are only too predictable. Maybe they are stalling their admission of being duped until they discover for themselves where these documents originated and THEN spin the focus elsewhere.

They sure can dish it out...

167 grayp  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:17:30pm

Hi guys.

(((bigel))). Again. Traffic was so bad the other day I didn't get a chance to respond to your post to me. Hope you are well.

This is not just CBS. This is all of MSM. The Washington Times had an entire article today written by Jennifer Harper on how the blogs made this story. I tried to find it online but couldn't ("page can't be found" error). LGF was in there along with Powerline.

It is too much to hope that Blather gets laughed at when he walks down the street in NYC. But there is no question that the MSM will be chastened by this. No question.

And just for grins, yes I did email CBS for the simple pleasure of calling them frauds.

I feel great! Oh? And the electoral vote count issue from the earlier thread. Hubby, the professional politician in our house has done the work. He puts Bush at 320 as of today.

168 JohninLondon  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:17:47pm

The Sunday Telegraph in London gives bad marks to CBS :

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

169 ubangi  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:18:25pm

CBS was just fined half a mil for the Janice Jackson Super Bowl incident. Would they be fined if the documents were forgeries? And their viewership is, shall we say, not way up there?

170 cba  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:21:18pm

$104 Right Brain:

4) Texas Air National Guard is abbreviated TANG, not TexANG.

On another thread, Darleen links to an apparently genuine memo that uses the abbreviation TexANG.

Just wanted to point this out. If it's not a genuine document then I don't want to be telling people it is. And if TexANG is an acceptable abbreviation, I don't want to be telling people it ain't.

171 mika.  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:21:37pm

#69

Bigel's words should be canonized. He really is a Prophet. I'm convinced.

172 Throbert McGee  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:24:28pm
Now how do I do strikethrough (not to mention French accents?)

Typing <strike>this</strike>

produces this.

As for the French accents and other special characters, you enter them by typing in the appropriate character code, which will always begin with an ampersand and end with a semicolon. For example:

Typing &ocirc;

produces an o with a circumflex accent: ô

This page has the character codes for all the French accents, as well as the Greek alphabet and other special symbols. Some characters have only a numeric code, while others have both a number and an easier-to-remember name.

173 ubangi  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:24:37pm

Did you guys discuss the inclusion of Stoudt in the Killian note and that Stoudt had retired 18 months earlier than the date on the memo?

174 [Engineer]  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:24:59pm

OT

I keep an eye on the British bookmakers odds on the election. Today has

BUSH -275
Kerry +200

This means that you would have to bet $275 on Bush to win $100 if he wins, but would win $200 if you bet $100 on Kerry if he wins. In other words, they think Bush has it in the bag.

Link

175 killbuckner  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:26:18pm

we have the one killian memo that GWB also signed. WIth all the FOIA requests done on Bush's guard documentation there much be many more of them out there. Evidentially the washington times has 3 that they showed to their document analyst. Anyone one have some links to more undisputed Killian memos?

176 Buckaroo  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:26:35pm

# 173 u

It's been brought up -- IMO I want to hear from Stout directly ..

177 bigel[deleted]  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:27:09pm
178 grayp  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:30:21pm

#168 JohninLondon
from your link

The prospect that the CBS "expose" could have been based on forgeries has caused panic among senior Democrats.


*sobs helplessly*
/not

179 McKie of BuSab  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:31:54pm

Here's my two cents emailed to cbs.

I am a British citizen who has been following the news regarding the George Bush TANG documents. I find it shocking that your team is still stonewalling and claiming these documents are genuine. There are three points to consider.
One; these documents can be duplicated almost immediately by simply using default settings for MS Word followed by transfer to a PDF file.
Two; They would be extremely difficult if not impossible to produce with office equiptment of 1973.
Three; As these documents slander the reputation of both George Bush and the deceased serviceman who it is claimed signed them, the burden of proof falls on you to prove beyond reasonable doubt their veracity.
This whole episode tarnishes the international reputation of your company as an impartial news service. Please remedy this by admitting you were wrong. The longer your company prevaricates, the worse you all appear to the rest of the world.
180 killbuckner  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:33:50pm

So why haven't MSNBC or CNN gone full out on this story? They need the ratings, and if the docs turn out to be false, being the leading network on the story is going to be huge for ratings, and give a huge profile boost for the person who does the difinitive taking down of CBS. The blogs have even giftwrapped all the information you need to present. But I guess while liberals are stil convinced that the memos are real, they are afraid of alienating the viewers they still have. I can understand why fox isn't going all out, but it just seems like MSNBC or CNN would have a ton to gain.

181 American Infidel[deleted]  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:35:28pm
182 bigel[deleted]  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:36:03pm
183 mika.  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:37:03pm

#177


:)

184 cba  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:38:08pm

#181 American Infidel:
Raised up isn't a problem--you just turn the carriage one click and then return it to the original position afterwards. The problem is the size of the "th"--it's the same size in the document you show, but smaller in the fake ones.

Size does matter.

185 cba  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:38:47pm

Oh, and the document that American Infidel links to also uses the abbreviation TexANG (repeatedly).

Just sayin'.

186 Melissa  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:39:48pm

newscaper (#165):
I was just thinking about Freddie today. I lived in Mobile in September 1979 when it hit and produced an (award-winning) documentary about it for WKRG.

That storm was only a CAT 3, and the widespread devastation -- all the beautiful live oak and pecan trees smashed to the ground -- led me to leave the coast for several decades.

I'm moving back to the Gulf area in the next couple of weeks, specifically so I can vote for GWB in the swing state of Florida. I just hope there's a little of Florida left by the time I get there.

187 killbuckner  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:42:44pm

american infidel- as I understand it, for fixed width fonts the superscripting like you show was possible. But the proportional spacing combined with the superscripting is the combination that is tough to find. The executive and the selectric composer are the only ones that could do both. the regular selectrics could do the superscript th like in that document but they were always fixed width font and couldn't do proportional.

188 American Infidel[deleted]  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:43:06pm
189 [Engineer]  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:44:20pm

#185 cba

Oh, and the document that American Infidel links to also uses the abbreviation TexANG (repeatedly).

If the Texas Air Guard was called TANG, what about the Tennessee Air Guard?

190 Orbit Rain  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:44:38pm

"NEW" Bush Memo's

lmfao!!...I mean really...look at the K's in the signatures on page four and five...This isn't rocket science.

:D

CBS, I hardly watched thee...

191 Sarah D.  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:45:23pm
I just hope there's a little of Florida left by the time I get there.

So do I. Bagged 30 sandbags today, and placed 50 more. I can feel my age tonight :)

192 ubangi  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:46:13pm

#180 Killb

Fox has gone into the forgery allegations and has interviewed Killian's son. They don't mention it every half an hour, but they've pointed out a lot of discrepancies.

193 Lady of Shalott (ylreveb)  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:46:19pm

"I suspect the person who created these fake documents is young enough to have no experience with the typewriters of the 1970s, and stupid enough to think that hastily created MS Word files (with all the MS Word signature characteristics) would be enough to fool the entire world."

Word.

My feeling all along.

Now, is there something legal we civilians can do? I'm spoiling for a fight. Someone needs to shove it up Rather's ass and break it off. Fourth Estate completes transformation into Fifth Column.

194 transient  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:46:39pm

#60 zulubaby;

Only a Muslim nation could consider the mass murder of 3000 citizens to be a 'minor crisis.' This is from a country that is forming human shield "suicide squads" to shield their nuclear plants from attack, so what can you expect?
---
I think--I hope-- that if the blogosphere keeps up the pressure, MSM will be forced to cover it. Print media may cover because they have disdain for TV news, and probably don't mind watching CBS squirm a little. TV networks, especially cable, may cover it if they are forced to do so out of competition.

CBS might be investigating their own "exit strategy."

#98 LSD;
I was in the next room when Bakri was on so didn't catch most of what he said (probably good for my blood pressure). But is that his normal voice, or has he been castrated?

#172 Throbert;
(tèst)
thanque
thanks!

195 Sarah D.  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:46:58pm

#188 American Infidel

Also interesting is how ont he other lines, the th isn't in superscript. Different people typing on different days? Different typewritters?

196 Sarah D.  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:48:11pm

#189 [Engineer]

They are the TNANG.

197 American Infidel[deleted]  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:50:16pm
198 justdanny  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:50:54pm

#158 Melissa

These are the days they'll talk about.

199 zulubaby  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:52:51pm

transient (#194)

Only a Muslim nation could consider the mass murder of 3000 citizens to be a 'minor crisis.'

Isn't it unbelievable!? Except of course when it's jihadis that are killed, then it's genocide. Bastards.

200 reaganite  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:53:36pm

#191 Sarah D.

I can feel my age tonight :)

LOL, I'll trade ya!

201 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:53:58pm

See [Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

Well, if the rest of the world wants Kerry, let them invite him to run their own countries.

If they think it's to their advantage if Kerry's elected, how can it be to America's?

202 CanGyrene  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:56:08pm

Darlene #4

Good job on those contacts. As an old investment type for many years, the language and the spoon come easily when one has this kind of pot to stir.
Thanks, and Good job!

203 ubangi  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:56:43pm

#98 LSD

I just wrote to FoxNews complaining about Kasich. He is a naive rube who should not be discussing international affairs. An idiot! This isn't the first time he's come out with some uninformed statement, either-"There's only one God and my God wants peace and you should accept that," he said to Bakri. Ugh! Why did he give this turdball a platform to broadcast his venom, anyway?!

204 Miggie  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:56:50pm

I sure hope this Microsoft Help for creating 1972 documents works.

It is from freepublic.com scroll down to Oblongata post. It is hilarious.

Hope it isn't a dupe of something posted previously.

205 cba  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:59:19pm

American Infidel:
I went back and had another look at a larger magnification. To me it looks like the t and the h were kinda typed on top of one another. My guess would be the typist missed out the h (or possibly the t) and had already typed in the rest of the line--or at least some of the letters--and then went back to squeeze in the missing letter.

Trust me, before word processors I did that kind of thing a lot.

Disclaimer--the above is simply my non-authoritative opinion.

206 transient  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 4:59:31pm

#199 zulubaby;

Yep, yep. 57 dead. Clear case o' genocide if I ever saw one. And Sudan? Nothin' going on there. Not a problem. Don't see anything. Lalalalalalalala.

/sarc
(pretty damn obvious, but I promised selpaw.)

207 cba  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 5:03:29pm

zb, check your email and write me like you promised ;-)

208 American Infidel[deleted]  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 5:03:47pm
209 Roger  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 5:04:19pm

There is an uncanny parallel between the MSM/Dhimmicrats and the Islamists. When the Islamists commit horrific crimes they blame the Jews. When MSM/Dhimmicrats distort/forge news/history they blame Karl Rove. Maybe thats why they 'understand' and feel for each other.

210 Sarah D.  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 5:05:35pm

#200 reaganite

You're not THAT much older than me!!!

Besides, 50lb bags of WET sand are just a pain in the a$$.

211 zulubaby  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 5:05:52pm

cba, I don't have an e-mail from you :-(

212 hcq  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 5:06:03pm

#165 newscaper

In Pensacola here. GF and I are barely speaking after a shouting match Wed night re: Rather, but Ivan is helping some. We just keep looking at the weather reports and saying "Holy crap. We're not getting out of this one."

Don't drink much around here, but this being a kind of triple-witching day (9/11, Rathergate, and Ivan) I've poured myself a tall one tonight. When we thought Frances was headed our way I'd wake up every morning with sore feet from clenching my toes all night.

I just want to live long enough to see Rather dissolve.

213 Lady of Shalott (ylreveb)  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 5:06:38pm

#93 Instead, the press waited to substantiate their validity as a factor in the election and properly covered them.


Balls. The "press" didn't even show up for their fucking press conference. Blatantly dismissed them out of hand. No investigation of ANY KIND.

and we're still waiting.

214 cba  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 5:08:54pm

zb, I'll resend--I sent two things earlier this afternoon.

215 reaganite  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 5:09:08pm

#210 Sarah D.

Besides, 50lb bags of WET sand are just a pain in the a$$.

You muffin! :-Þ

216 RickZ  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 5:11:27pm

# 209 roger:

The MSM/Dhimmicrats and Muslims have no morals. That's why they cop a feel from each other.

217 Sarah D.  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 5:13:03pm

#215 reaganite

Alright smarty, I'll expect you down here to help me remove the damned things after hurricane season!!!

Muffin my foot...

:>

218 reaganite  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 5:14:26pm

#217 Sarah D.

Alright smarty, I'll expect you down here to help me remove the damned things after hurricane season!!!

Okay, but you have to pay me in Grolsch!

219 Wind Rider  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 5:19:55pm

My take on the whole thing is that no matter how loudly we scream from the blogosphere, it matters not a bit as far as what CBS will do - they're going to do whatever they want. My thinking is that there's actually a bit of joy that they were 'caught' on this - why? Because it gives the story legs.

Would the issue have gotten as much coverage in the MSM (or even in the sphere) if it had been a rehash of the same old shit that McAuliffe and company have been trying to peddle (without getting much response) for months now? Nope.

This is a win/win for them. Because it keeps the issue alive. The 'controversy' provides just that much more air time for them to talk 10 seconds about old typewriters, then run through their laundry list of innuendo, denigration, distortion, and dirt about W and the TANG.

Example - last night on Fox, Juan Williams running circles around, Mort Kondracke and Fred Barnes, while managing to bring the 'serious questions about Bush's service' elephant into the tent.

Suggesting that the DNC or the Kerry camp had anything to do with it would be a problem for lesser equivocators than McAullife and Co. He used it as an opportunity to raise the specter of that evil, evil Rove influence at work yet again!

Rather took one for the team on this one. Don't hold your breath expecting an apology, retraction, nor a decent explaination. It doesn't serve their interests, nor the interests of their support for knocking off Bush.

More thoughts on this line of possibility - here

220 Sarah D.  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 5:20:40pm

#218 reaganite

Works for me, at least I won't have to worry about you drinking up all my Busch!

221 Jim in Virginia  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 5:27:19pm

bigel 105- bless you. It takes a lot to admit you're wong, even more to allude to it later. Mika 71 is right.
But I disagree with your 182- I'm an optimist (even though I saw dozens of Kerry buttons, no Bush one, while I was walkging around town today.) I think a 40+ state sweep for Bush is possible: Maryland (Republican governor now) Washington, maybe even California and NJ are possible Bush wins. Nobody expected Reagan or George HW Bush to win likethey did. erryis runign as bad a campaing as Duakakis did. Check out todays's command post
The election section includes Kerry's and Bushs's radio addresses today. Kerry barely mentions who was responsible.
Americans aren't stupid. They notice this stuff.

222 reaganite  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 5:28:43pm

#220 Sarah D.

Works for me, at least I won't have to worry about you drinking up all my Busch!

LOL, at work, I'm the beer snob. My kids ask, "Jim, want a beer"? I snort and say "I haven't had to pay a beer fine lately so I know there's no real beer in the fridge"!

OTOH, I'll leave out the obvious slant on the Busch theme...

Did I type that out loud?

223 zulubaby  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 5:34:15pm

Wind Rider, I think that Rather being caught in a lie is the bigger story but you're right in that the media never suffers repercussions for their lies and propaganda, something that aggravates me every day.

224 Sarah D.  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 5:34:46pm

#222 reaganite

I used to be a beer snob myself. Moosehead was my thing...looove that stuff. But now I'm just poor, and of all the poor people's beer out there, I prefer Busch.

I knew the name would be a problem! Glad to see you managed to censor yourself!!!

I do occasionally reward myself with a bottle of Glenlivet. Makes up for all the Busch!

225 Roger  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 5:35:04pm

#219 Wind Rider, it all changes when it becomes a legal issue. This is bad for them and a big risk. If nothing is done about it, it will be bad for the country.


What is the status of the guy who stuffed top security documents in his pants? Is he going scot-free?

226 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 5:37:17pm

An out-on-a-limb-prediction:

The house of cards will collapse Tuesday or Wednesday, Rather will make a tearful non-apology on the air, blaming others, then offer his resignation.

Ben Barnes will turn out to be the culprit and he will invoke a conspiracy theory, claiming that Evil Rove-operativestm tricked him.

227 Jim in Virginia  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 5:37:46pm

PINMF. I'm sorry Bigel you're never wong.
Now that even ABC and Washington Post seem to accept the documents are forged, I'm hoping the dead tree media start a race with the blogosphere to find out who did it. My opinion- Terry McAuliffe.
CBS is either in denial or trying to figure out a way out of the hole they've dug.
As far as legal action or investigations- the Bush administration, and the Republicans in Congeress, can't ask for it. Somone like Barney Frank or Dianne Feinstein or Joe Lieberman could ask for an investigation. John Kerry could, too- but can anyone imagine that?

228 oldtimer  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 5:38:25pm

#218 reaganite
Do you have Denver duty Tues? Would like to meet you.

229 zulubaby  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 5:39:24pm

Jim in Virginia (#221)

(even though I saw dozens of Kerry buttons, no Bush one, while I was walkging around town today.)

I'm not sure that's indicative of anything really. Bush supporters don't scream and carry on like the Bush-haters do. I don't feel the need to wear my politics on my clothes or my car.

230 reaganite  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 5:40:53pm

#224 Sarah D.
Even during the worst years of my divorce where I was a fraction of an inch away from bankruptcy, I drank what I liked. I'd rather not drink if I can't have what I want.

Makes up for all the Busch!

I feel your pain lady! I had to go to Kyrgyzstan to get Grolsch! I have yet to find it here since then!

231 LesLein  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 5:41:53pm

# 161 -- For CBS journalism ethics is an oxymoron.

# 168 -- The link mentions a reward for evidence that Bush fulfilled his obligations. Where do I mail a copy of Bush's honorable discharge? No one in the MSM seems to be aware of it.

# 180 -- The MSM play down scandals by their competition for the same reason airlines don't talk about other airlines' accidents.

232 reaganite  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 5:42:36pm

#228 oldtimer
My next trip is to NYC for the UN *spit*. I'll be there for the rest of the month. If I get to Denver, I'll be sure to let you know.

233 Rosemarie  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 5:42:46pm

I agree with Gretchen. Every time Dan Rather flashes up that Tiger Beat hottie picture of Bush as a fighter pilot, he's winning more female undecideds.

234 Sarah D.  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 5:45:33pm

#230 reaganite

had to go to Kyrgyzstan to get Grolsch! I have yet to find it here since then!

Is it a different Grolsch you're drinking there? You can buy it here...I still have an empty that I use for a vase ;)

235 reaganite  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 5:49:52pm

#234 Sarah D.
There is a plot against me here in fayettenam. If I like say, Bacardi Premium they stop selling it. 3 local stores were selling Grolsch once I got divorced. None sell it now. I think it's the same plot that made me go to the DNC and not let me go to the RNC!

236 Scott Parker  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 5:51:10pm

#64

Put MM in the Hall of Shame and disqual him for further IOTY competitions. I mean, someone else has to win once in a while.

#65

To Charles, Powerline, et. al...

Deliverers of the real "People's Elbow"!

:-)

#120

1. Physicists say that gravity is a "dip" in spacetime caused by mass.

2. Michael Moore has so much mass he could have his own gravity field.

3. Michael Moore is a dip in all senses of the word.

#122

Old farts like Rather just don't understand the internet... what it is, let alone how big and influential it is. He thinks that only a few hundred people are watching and analyzing, and he has no comprehension of the SPEED at which news travels over it. I wonder how many times CBS has got away with stuff like this in the past... before the internet made it easy for average joes to get a closeup look at their "proof".

It's just like the what invention of the Gutenberg press did to the clergy. It lets the masses interpret for themselves, rather than getting it through the old media "priests".

Of course, some people are content with the spoon-feeding. :p

237 PETN Sandwich  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 5:54:54pm

#188 AI

Not so long ago underscoring the superscript [1]st, nd, rd, & th was the norm. EVEN with a typewriter.

For real typesetters it is probably still the corret way.
Somebody should let MicroSoft know that that have a style error.

238 SoCalJustice  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 5:55:49pm

(#130) Shiplord Kirel

I wish I could personally hand deliver that story to Louis Farrakhan - next time he intones about solidarity with his Arab and Muslim "brothers and sisters," I want him thinking about that.

239 NY Nana  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 5:55:53pm

Another article re the cbs/blather Big Lie:RATHER FORGES AHEAD

CBS anchor Dan Rather hung tough last night and insisted there's no "definitive evidence" to refute the authenticity of documents about President Bush's National Guard service — but a growing number of document experts smell a hoax.
"If any definitive evidence to the contrary of our story is found, we will report it. So far there is none," Rather insisted.

He produced a man named Marcel Matley as the document vetter.

But Matley is primarily a handwriting expert whose expertise in document evaluation has been challenged by the head of the American Board of Forensic Document Examiners.

Matley spoke only about a signature and initials purported to be those of the late Lt. Col. Jerry Killian — "they are his signatures" — though two of the four memos are unsigned.

Rather also acknowledged CBS has no originals, only photocopies.

Allan Haley — a typeface expert at Agfa Monotype — said anyone who claims to definitively authenticate a photocopy "is either guessing or is a fool."

In another challenge to CBS, Killian's boss, retired Maj. Gen. Bobby W. Hodges, told ABC News that he regards the documents as a computer "fraud," never saw them in the 1970s and didn't validate them for CBS.

A senior CBS official had claimed to the Washington Post that Hodges had validated the documents.

During his national news broadcast, Rather claimed "partisan political operatives" are challenging the memos but omitted the fact that Killian's widow and son dispute them.

The memos cast doubt on whether Bush fulfilled his Guard requirements.

Marjorie Connell — widow of Lt. Col. Killian, who died in 1984 — has told ABC the documents are "very suspect" because her late husband didn't type and was a big fan of the young Bush.

A key issue is whether the documents were made on a 1970s-era typewriter or are forgeries done by computer because of their proportional spacing and raised superscripts on ordinal numbers like "111th."

Rather last night pointed to an undisputed document from Bush's National Guard files and claimed it has a superscript, so they were available by 1968.

But that document is in a different typeface and experts say it was made on a different type of machine without proportional spacing so it proves nothing.

"It could be a superscript, it could be a correction with a letter showing through white-out, but in any case it's absolutely irrelevant . . . It doesn't prove a thing," said document expert Bill Flynn.

"It's a completely different technology," added the Phoenix-based Flynn.

Flynn said it's "very unlikely" that the memos are legit, adding that he knows of no typewriter fonts using proportionally spaced Roman type with a raised "th" available in the 1970s.

Rather didn't identify any machine capable of produc^^^ing the documents. *



*That is in the article...I didn't do it, honest! :)

It looks like Rt. Major General Bobby W. Hodges is indeed going to be scapegaoted. IMHO, that would be another giant error, compounding their already inescapable lie.

240 Sarah D.  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 5:57:48pm

Been to Fayetteville, it sucks. You need to move.

Move somewhere that sells Grolsch and has no hurricanes! Not a lot of traffic either. Traffic sucks too.

241 papijoe  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 6:00:24pm

Hi reaganite!

242 reaganite  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 6:03:45pm

#240 Sarah D.

Been to Fayetteville, it sucks. You need to move.

LOL, you think I didn't know that!

Not a lot of traffic either. Traffic sucks too.

I hate crowds.
I have a great option with my line of work. I can live anywhere once I retire.

Hiya papijoe!

243 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 6:07:15pm

Another nail in the coffin:

According to this LLL Bush-basher site, the CBS docs have the wrong address for Bush (5000 Longmont Apt 8, Houston).
This had been out of date for at least 3 years at the putative time of the memos and had changed before Bush's assignment to Killian's unit.
Note that the source for Bush's actual 1973 address (2910 Westheimer Rd Apt 4, Houston) is the R.L. Polk city directory, a public document.

How is it that his commanding officer would not have a current address, or even one that had been current at any time during Bush's tenure there?

244 oldtimer  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 6:08:29pm

#232 reaganite

got it.

On the beer subject, drinking from the tap at the Pilsner Urquel beerhaus in Pilsn is paradise. Anything else competes for second place at best.

re NYC: If you can handle French Provincial, try Bouterin" over by the 59th St Bridge. Tell Antoine the recommendation came from his next door neighbor in St. Remy.

245 piglet  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 6:08:37pm
Move somewhere that sells Grolsch and has no hurricanes! Not a lot of traffic either. Traffic sucks too.

The grolsh in amsterdam is days fresher. They even have an Amstel river! I think they have three taps on the kitchen sinks, hot, cold and Heineken

246 Sarah D.  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 6:10:48pm

#241 papijoe

The gmail link wouldn't work for me. I think my niece uses it and it must have seen her cookie. It only lets you try once.

Wasted a free 1000M of email :(

Sorry.

247 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 6:12:12pm

Re my #243

I should point out that CBS redacted the address from its released copies of the documents, but the White House left them on the copies it released to AP and others.

248 Sarah D.  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 6:16:46pm

#245 piglet

The absolute best best beer buzz ever was a fresh keg of Heineken in Holland at a pig roast for a buddy who had just paid off his Hog.

I was also the absolute worst hangover I've ever had.

249 reaganite  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 6:17:10pm

#243 Shiplord Kirel

How is it that his commanding officer would not have a current address, or even one that had been current at any time during Bush's tenure there?

Military "efficiency"? Really, the military screws that up all the time, trust me.

250 reaganite  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 6:18:35pm

#244 oldtimer

Tell Antoine the recommendation came from his next door neighbor in St. Remy.

I'll do that!

251 papijoe  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 6:18:51pm

#246 Sarah D.

Actually another lizardoid I sent one to had the same problem. I don't want to be paranoid but this could be part of a vast left-wing conspiracy...

252 The Bruce  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 6:23:23pm

I can't post this on any other thread listed since they're all about you-know-what, but I think it's relevant...

WASHINGTON, Sept. 11 - President Bush and his top advisers have received intelligence reports in recent days describing a confusing series of actions by North Korea that some experts believe could indicate the country is preparing to conduct its first test explosion of a nuclear weapon, according to senior officials with access to the intelligence.

While the indications were viewed as serious enough to warrant a warning to the White House, American intelligence agencies appear divided about the significance of the new North Korean actions, much as they were about the evidence concerning Iraq's alleged weapons stockpiles.

Some analysts in agencies that were the most cautious about the Iraq findings have cautioned that they do not believe the activity detected in North Korea in the past three weeks is necessarily the harbinger of a test. A senior scientist who assesses nuclear intelligence says the new evidence "is not conclusive," but is potentially worrisome.

253 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 6:34:15pm

Reaganite,
I am a retired field grade officer.
Inefficiency is one thing but having an address on file that had changed twice and that had been out of date for years (since before the officer's current assignment, in fact) is something else again.
We would definitely have current or at least recently current addresses for junior officers.
Among other things, everything sent to Bush for over 2 years would have gone to the wrong address if this had been the one on file.

254 reaganite  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 6:41:57pm

#253 Shiplord Kirel

Inefficiency is one thing but having an address on file that had changed twice and that had been out of date for years (since before the officer's current assignment, in fact) is something else again.

As of 6 months or so ago, I was still married, living in an apartment I vacated in '97, and my son lived in Utah at the wrong address. 3 errors, all of which I corrected as they happened.

My divorce was final in '96, I hadn't lived in that house since '98, and my son has lived in one house since 2002.

We would definitely have current or at least recently current addresses for junior officers.

Only what those butter bars told them.

255 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 6:50:40pm

Reaganite
Did your CO have the wrong address?

256 Rayra[deleted]  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 7:00:29pm
257 Yishai  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 7:11:24pm

#193 Lady of Shalott (ylreveb)

Now, is there something legal we civilians can do?


I'm no legal expert (lawyers reading, please excuse my ignorance, and chime in), but I believe the legal thing to do would be for GWB to personally file a libel lawsuit against CBS. Libel is for when false rumors/news is spread. That lawsuit will not happen because I believe it has to be proved that the perpetrator (CBS) had knowledge that it was false, when they spread the disinformation. It looks like they will probably hide behind their "experts" (cough, cough) as to their lack of knowledge at the time that they aired 60 minutes.

So, the public can not do anything legal wrt libel (only W. can even attempt it), unless you can think of some way that you and/or the american public was damaged as a result of this slanderous report (uncontrollable retching, perhaps?)

258 amyc  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 7:14:51pm

* In the interests of full disclosure, I feel that i must reveal that my parrot uses the Boston Globe for a toilet.

#103 LOL--my rat uses the NY Times and Denver Post (given by liberal friends from their recycle pile)

259 Ghost  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 7:27:11pm

I haven't seen this brought up yet, so let me mention it. From the memo dated 01 August 1972:

"...I also suggested that we fill this critical billet with a more seasoned pilot from the list of qualified Vietnam pilots that have rotated."


Considering its probable source and probable intended effect, I'm surprised that it doesn't instead say:

"...I also suggested that we fill this critical billet with a more seasoned pilot from the list of qualified and heroic purple-heart Vietnam pilots that have rotated."
260 amyc  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 7:31:08pm

#219--I'm hoping against hope that Gen. Hodges has the clout to make a huge stink about this story. You just don't publicly accuse retired Guard generals of lying without their getting really pissed off.

261 azul93gt  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 7:46:42pm

I started to read the elaborate suggested scenario for the forgery sequence of events at STROMATA. I can agree that Rather's timetable was pushed forward by the event of the Kerry campaign's rapid decline, but I think Rather's rationale doesn't need to be explained. The attitude that he has exhibited since the revelation of the forgeries is all one needs to see. Rather never expected to be called on the forgeries because he's Dan Rather, and if someone (piss-ant to Dan) did raise any questions he'd be able to brush them aside because he's Dan Rather.

So far Rather has basically been telling the Public, I, Dan Rather said that the docs were real I'm not going to retract or apologize so kiss my a$$... I'm Dan Rather.

262 fxb  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 8:04:53pm
But if you were going to plant false documents, wouldn’t you spend considerable effort to make sure they looked real, so your intended patsy wouldn’t immediately notice that they were created with Microsoft Word?

That's exactly what he wants you to think.

Rove, you magnificent bastard!

263 NY Nana  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 8:18:04pm

As a Bostonian by birth, I am so depressed at the 2 US Senators from my native state, and that the Denver-born Hanoi john is actually running for President embarrasses me, even though I have lived in NY for about 45 of my 66 years..just as the curse on the Red Sox breaks my heart...but this is a curse that I am very happy to read about! May it never be lifted! Democratic adviser is a loss leader:At 0-7, Bob Shrum is well-acquainted with the concession speech

Each day at the Democratic convention in Boston, a team of 10 speechwriters would convene in a windowless office behind the Fleet Center podium to help compose and polish that night's speeches. In the spirit of camaraderie, the speechwriters discussed making T-shirts for themselves.

One suggested a design featuring the slogan "Reverse the Curse" over a picture of Bob Shrum, the Democratic strategist whom many perceived to be presidential candidate John Kerry's closest adviser. "The Curse" referred to Shrum's career-long slump in presidential campaigns, a well-catalogued losing streak that runs from George McGovern to Al Gore.

The shirts were never made for fear of offending Shrum. But the slogan endures as a joke among Kerry staffers. The implication is that Kerry is battling not just President Bush, but also the history of his ever-present aide-de-camp. It also underscores the degree to which Shrum's 0-7 win-loss record in presidential elections has become ensconced in the psyches of the campaigns he orchestrates.

Talk of the Curse becomes rampant when Shrum's candidates sputter. And Kerry is sputtering, down nine points in a new Washington Post poll after leading Bush for much of the summer. His campaign has been called listless and unfocused, words that were also applied to Shrum's last presidential enterprise, the Gore campaign (a forbidden comparison within Kerry headquarters).

Kerry spokesmen, predictably, say the campaign is moving forward. And Shrum loyalists, also predictably, reject any talk of a curse -- just as Boston Red Sox players say they don't believe in curses when reminded that the team hasn't won the World Series since 1918. ("Reverse the Curse" is a rallying cry among Red Sox fans.)...

see rest of article...

264 Patrizio  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 8:20:34pm

Lady of Shalott

Then how come I've read detailed articles on the Swift Boat Veterans' stories on both mainstream papers such as the Washington Post or the New York Times, and more secondary media such as the (yuck) Boston Globe or National Review? Everybody knows about the Swift Boat Veterans, otherwise Kerry wouldn't have made a big deal about it. It was and is hurting his campaign. I'm not particularly happy that this might be the issue that might cost him the election (I'd rather it were his actual policy proposals that people rejected), but at least it takes votes away from him.

265 daNightman  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 8:23:44pm

#181 American Infidel:

I think I have an explanation for that, and it illustrates at lot of what's been pointed out.

If you look at the raised 'th' you'll notice a few things immediately. First, while it's raised, it's in line with the top of the rest of the capital characters. It's also smaller, and it's underlined.

What you're probably seeing there is a special character that was on the typewriter used to make that particular entry. It looks like two characters of a smaller font, but it was created by a single block like any other character. That's why the other references to the unit are "111th"; the other machines simply didn't have that key.

In other words, that entry was created on a regular typewriter with a th superscript as a special character key. A very different animal altogether from what you're seeing in the Killian docs.

266 M. Simon  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 11:11:42pm

Here is my theory on why it got out of control:

Out on a limb

The short version: it was a plan without branches. ie CBS and DNC/Kerry were in collusion. No backup plan.

267 Nancy  Sun, Sep 12, 2004 2:23:54am

The "Rove" rumor doesn't even make sense for the timing either.

After the convention, Bush was well leading in the polls, he certainly was not going to risk committing an illegal action to "sabotage" a campaign that was self-destructing on it's own.

Especially not something that would cast negativity on a president that was riding high.

Regarding the campaign he was working on for his "dad" the writer of the memo was, of course, trying to make an implication that he was getting favorable treatment because of his father, but I believe he was working on someone else's campaign.

The implied was that since he was doing it for his "father" he should be given preferred treatment since that is the "point" they are claiming with all the messages --it was because of who his father was, he got "special" treatment.

That alone is suspicious since it would more likely say he was working on the campaign of so and so --not "for his dad" (implied doing it as a favor for his dad.)

Apart from the technical aspects, most military persons have already pointed out the language used itself is too informal and personal.

I think the son summed it up: no commanding officer would put anything like that in writing that even implied they were giving anyone special treatment because that would incriminate THEM.

268 Nancy  Sun, Sep 12, 2004 2:48:29am

Someone above mentioned that they may have been handwritten and then typed up.

That may be well what they WERE going to claim because the "expert" who authenticated them was a handwritting expert.

One who also "authenticated" the Vince Foster suicide note was genuine while several OTHERS claimed it was inconclusive.

Now since the son and widow have emphatically stated their he did NOT write down notes, did NOT keep notes and personal files it would result in they calling Killian's family "liars."

In fact, if they WERE handwritten , before they hired ANY expert --they could have easily sent copies to the family for their opinion --which they did not do.

Ethically, since they claim they came from "personal files" which rightfully should have been the property of his family, anyone who "unearthered" them after 20 years SHOULD have --out of respect --turned the "originals" over to the living family --even if they kept copies themselves.

GWB was young and the REAL negativity in the claims of those memos is against the career military commanders who it is being claimed were "accommodating outside pressure to give special treatment" to some.

I don't blame the son and widow for their outrage.

269 mr. beamish  Sun, Sep 12, 2004 6:00:53am
Some have suggested that these documents may have been “planted” by the evil Karl Rove (cue sound of horses whinnying), to make news media and Democrats look bad. But if you were going to plant false documents, wouldn’t you spend considerable effort to make sure they looked real, so your intended patsy wouldn’t immediately notice that they were created with Microsoft Word?

I think Charles is deliberately shilling for the right-wing to conceal the fact that it's Bush's fault that Dan Rather is a dumbass.

And he's probably in his pajamas! Nyah!

;-)

270 grizz  Sun, Sep 12, 2004 9:11:04am

#144 rosh

I assume that "Image Conversion Plug-in" indicated that they were scanned.

Say after being run through a dirty copier a couple times.

This suggests an interesting thread to pursue- do the "copier noise" speckles match on any of the documents? Might they match other documents recently provided by, say, CBS, the DNC, or the Kerry campaign?

I suspect that much of the speckle was added in Photoshop, of course, but you never know...

271 John Brown  Sun, Sep 12, 2004 3:49:05pm

BOYCOTT CBS and its ADVERTISERS!!!

Pass the word. Do not take this laying down.

To paraphrase an African-American First Lady wannabe, anyone who doesn't think that these memos are forgeries is an IDIOT.

BOYCOTT CBS and its ADVERTISERS!!!

WRITE TO ONE OR MORE OF CBS's ADVERTISERS!!!

Advertisers: Walmart, Ore-Ida, Cerner, etc.


P.S. Bernard Goldberg is probably laughing is rear-end off.

272 Geepers  Sun, Sep 12, 2004 4:06:10pm

grizz (#270),

This suggests an interesting thread to pursue- do the "copier noise" speckles match on any of the documents?

Actually it looks like someone dotted them on with a pen.

"dust" comparisons.

hat tip: Splatt3r9unk

273 Tags  Sun, Sep 12, 2004 4:29:42pm

I wish I could share all the optimism here re: a coming day of reckoning for Rather and CBS.

IMO, Rather and CBS don't have to do or say ANYTHING. They can stick to their "these memos are genuine" mantra, and let the bloggers and amateur web-pundits get worked up over fonts and superscripts. Unless the person responsible for the forgings makes a public confession, CBS will continue to maintain "they're real because we say so" as long as there is no single clear, dramatic piece of evidence to force them to change their story. The rest of the MSM will circle the wagons, and eventually the forgery story will die out, to be remembered only as a quaint conspiracy theory from those excitable right-wing blogosphere folks who wished they had real media jobs.

The Lewinsky affair would've ended up this way, if it hadn't been for that little blue dress. THAT was the single, dramatic piece of evidence that forced Team Clinton to fess up. At this point, we don't have a similar smoking gun against these memos. And I think CBS is betting it can run interference and use countermeasures and half-truths against what evidence there is, long enough until the story gets cold.

274 Independent1  Sun, Sep 12, 2004 5:54:15pm

Democrats who believe Karl Rove is behind these docs, as well as any Republican who thinks it's the Kerry campaign (or DNC), should want CBS to reveal their source. If the story is bogus (as it obviously is), then someone presumably duped them. I think the biggest story here is who created the Word doc in the first place. Let's push to find out.

As John Brown said above:
"BOYCOTT CBS and its ADVERTISERS!!! WRITE TO ONE OR MORE OF CBS's ADVERTISERS!!! Advertisers: Walmart, Ore-Ida, Cerner, etc."

It's by far, the very best way to get CBS's attention since they are the ones who are effectively paying CBS to publish (and stand behind) these concocted stories. By refusing to buy their products while they advertise on CBS, change might happen and we might find out who's really behind this story.

Freedom of the press doesn't mean much if the press doesn't take its responsibility to heart.

I'm contacting some advertisers now myself...

275 ScotSilv  Sun, Sep 12, 2004 7:46:06pm

If CBS does not capitulate soon, here's an idea using the same technology they created this mess with.

"When all else fails, use public embarrassment."

Protest! Imagine several laptop computers set up outside CBS Headquarters showing the Flash "CBS Busted" at [Link: img41.exs.cx...]

as part of a PROTEST. With posters and handouts (copies of the "documents" and Word "reproductions" for passers-by to superimpose in the sunlight).

Would that get CBS's attention, or no?

276 sgpi11  Sun, Sep 12, 2004 8:09:35pm

This from the LA Times

"This was the first time, some said, that the Web logs were engaging in their own form of investigative journalism — and readers, they warned, should be cautious.

"The mainstream press is having to follow them," said Jeffrey Seglin, a professor at Emerson College in Boston. "The fear I have is: How do you know who's doing the Web logs?"

and they're worried about the veracity and credibility of the blogosphere??? IMHO, sites such as this one have more credibility than CBS, as demonstrated by this subject.

277 Humble Observer  Sun, Sep 12, 2004 8:48:54pm

I think there's real potential in looking beyond the word processor-typewriter technical debate, and focusing on the signatures, which go more directly to the heart of the CBS documents' authenticity, or lack thereof.

Last night, I ran across PDFs of signatures, on non-disputed documents, from multiple dates bracketing the time of the CBS memos. ([Link: www.usatoday.com...]

Now, I'm no handwriting expert, but a couple of things jumped out at me immediately.

First, the "K" in Killian, in the CBS memos, is constructed from a vertical, and the "arms" are then made from a single penstroke, sometimes looping at the change of direction. In the non-disputed documents, the "K" appears to be constructed of three completely separate strokes.

Next, the "J" in Jerry, in the CBS documents has a relatively straight "back", and a pronounced upper loop size, along with a finishing stroke that angles severely upward, relative to the rest of the signature. In the non-disputed signatures, the "J" has a definite rounded back, a more equal upper-to-lower loop size ratio, and a finishing stroke that tends to follow more closely the general line of the signature.

Finally, there is the matter of the rest of the letters in Killian. In every non-disputed example, the entire last name is spelled out, with the "l"s and even the "i" being so pronounced as to exhibit definite loops in their construction, not the abbreviated peaks evident in the CBS memos. Also, in no instance of the non-disputed signatures is the dot for either of the "i"s set leftward, into the "K"s space, as they are in the CBS document. In fact, they seem to be regularly shifted rightward, in a position over the "l"s, for the most part.

As I said, I am not an expert in these matters, and it would require one to say that the CBS documents definitely bear a valid signature.

Although we as non-experts cannot make THAT determination, it does not take an expert to see that the CBS documents bear a signature that is NOT that of "Jerry B. Killian, Lt Col, TexANG".

Regards,

Bob

278 Connie K.  Sun, Sep 12, 2004 10:58:02pm

I will let you know that I just called Fidelity, a Dan Rather Sponsor, and registered my disapproval of that sponsorship. I also told them that I would send out e-mails to let family members, all 126, know of their active approval of Dan Rather and CBS tactics for forged documents and questionable journalistic methods. Thanks for the sponsor names. I urge everyone to make that phone call, especially if you have money invested with them.

279 Independent1  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 3:42:08pm

Posted by Republican Red on

http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:5qiQL_jy4RAJ: 209.157.64.200/+%22CBS+News%22+%22sponsor+list%22& amp;hl=en:

I taped CBS Evening News tonight so I could fast forward through the bull and find out the sponsors for tonights broadcast. Viagra - 2 commercials JP Morgan Chase Campbells Soup - 3 commercials Maalox Iams Ambian Tums Capital One Folgers Omega Plus Metamucil LL Bean Walmart For Georgians, I also list local sponsors of CBS 46. I called this morning to complain and was told by their newsroom staff that they totally support Dan Rather and stand by him. Local sponsors of CBS 46 Taco Bell - 3 commercials Toyota of Roswell Publix - 2 commercials


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