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A Muddled Masterpiece of Denial

Mon, Sep 13, 2004 at 11:48:12 am PDT

Barbara O’Brien, a Bush-hating moonbat (just look around her site), is feebly attempting to refute the exact 1:1 correspondence between Microsoft Word documents created with default settings in 2004, and supposedly typed memos from a Texas Air National Guard base in 1972 and 1973: The Mahablog. (I’m responding to her because she’s being cited as an expert by several clueless lefty bloggers.)

Just in case you’re wondering who this is, she writes, “I’m the best expert I know.” A list of her credentials precedes her critique.

Here is my list. It does not include journalism school.

Let’s deal immediately with her main criticism, which seems to be that these documents do not show proportional type:

I’m bouncing around the web seeing wingnuts flying off about proportional letter spacing and kerning and whatnot, and I’m telling you these people are off the wall.

Why? Because, if you need to measure type (body size, ledding [sic], letter spacing) and match it exactly, you have to work with original documents. If you are measuring a photocopy of an original document, the measurements can be off by half a point or more. If you are measuring a photocopy of a photocopy, the distortion grows to more than a point. If you are measuring a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy scanned into a PDF file, e.g. the Killian documents, forget it. The “kerning” and letter spacing you think you see may or may not exist on the original document. Probably not, in fact.

I know this because I learned it from my old film patching days. If all I had to work with was a photocopy, my patch wouldn’t match. I had to measure the original printed page.

So, let’s dispense with the “proportional type” theory. I’ve looked at thePDF files, and IMO the quality thereof is too far removed from the original (the wavy baselines are a dead giveaway) to know what the original type proportion was. And any “kerning” one might see is probably the result of distortion that occurs in photocopies that are generations removed from an original.

OK. Now that we have “dispensed” with the proportional type theory, the question remains: how likely is it that multiple photocopies of a monospaced document would deform it in such a way that it precisely matches the line spacing, character spacing, line breaks and tab stops in a document created with Microsoft Word?

In reality, Ms O’Brien is making my case for me. It isn’t just one document that matches this way; similar tests on the other CBS Killian documents also show exact 1:1 correspondences in many critical areas, such as the height of midlines, length of descenders, shape of serifs, superscript, centered paragraphs ... the list goes on and on.

The probability of not one, but several 70s-era typewritten memos being mutated by multiple copying into perfect, proportionally spaced wonders that look as if they came from a typesetter is ... well, I leave that as an intellectual exercise for our gentle readers. (Hint: start at about zero.)

O’Brien writes more about the typewriters available in the 1970s, speculating that one of the IBM Selectric models could have done this. (I know, it sounds crazy; but remember, she denies that there is any proportional type in the documents.)

Then, after claiming the memos could have come from an IBM Selectric, O’Brien reverses direction and seems to acknowledge that they show a proportional Times New Roman font that could have been produced by a typesetter:

Finally, I understand the wingnuts find it astonishing that the type seen in the Killian documents can be reproduced exactly in word processing documents today. But to anyone with a rudimentary understanding of typography, this is not astonishing at all. Times Romancharacters produced on a lintotype machine in 1960will matchTimes Roman characters created in Microsoft Word today. Iftwo Times Roman characterswere not exactly the same, one of them would not be classicTimes Roman type, but something else.

Typefaces have been consistent for many generations. We still use some type faces that pre-date machine-made type, in fact; e.g., Garamond, still in use after four centuries.

I’ve collected a few books published and printed in the 19th century. I promise you it is possible to recreate the pages of those books digitally. You could setpages in Quark that exactly match the fonts, spacing, margins,etc.; saveas PDF files; and “age” the files in PhotoShop, and I doubt any expert in the world could tell the difference by looks alone. Probably an analysis of ink and paper would reveal the difference, but that’s outside my expertise.

Having trouble discerning her point here? Don’t worry, it isn’t just you. Is she saying the documents were typeset? Arguing that a modern word processor could create a close match to a typeset document from the 19th century is completely beside the point. Wasn’t she just saying the documents were typed on a Selectric?

Can anyone figure out what the hell this woman is on about?

In another entry at her blog, typography expert O’Brien has some amusing comments about me (and notice, no link) ...

The hyenas on the right are still mindlessly yapping about forgeries, because that’s what they do. Butby now most people with brains understandthe documents are most likely authentic.

According to this LA Times article, the “forgery” claim can be traced to an anonymous poster on Free Republic. Of course. Then some junior technoweenie on Little Green Footballs discovered he could replicate the documents on Microsoft Word, which said junior technoweenie, who clearly knows absolutely nothing about typography, assumed was proof the documents were phony.

... and then some equally amusing comments about President Bush:

There are two legitimate issues here. One is the content of the documents, which proves Our Fearless Leaders [sic] was indeed a spoiled little princeling who got away with disobeying a direct order while dissing his country.

But the other question is, how can we restore some semblance of responsibility to news reporting?

Now do you see why we call them moonbats?

UPDATE at 9/13/04 1:16:36 pm:

Barbara O’Brien responds—by shutting off comments and whining about being “vilified.” Waaahhh!

Not a word of actual response to my points, of course. And also notice how she won’t even link to LGF, as if she’s afraid that some kind of Internet Cootie Backwash will get on her if she does.

UPDATE at 9/13/04 2:01:59 pm:

Even though O’Brien has removed her comments links to avoid criticism, you can still post comments in her topic right here. Please be polite. (Hat tip: Doug.)

UPDATE at 9/13/04 2:16:54 pm:

Oh well, fun’s over. She managed to disappear the whole comment thread. Way to deal with facts, typography expert O’Brien!

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192 comments

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1 zombie  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 9:51:37am

You've barbecued her, Charles.

2 Birdgunner  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 9:51:38am

Amusing, Charles - but why give such a raving lunatic the airhead? (Oops - I meant airtime)

- Birdgunner

3 chris_l  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 9:53:03am

#2 - agree - Charles why bother with her? You're just giving her hits to her site.

4 adam_dc  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 9:53:32am

Sudan's foreign minister yesterday accused the Bush administration of trying to woo African-American voters and diverting attention from Iraq by seeking to stir up international action over the Darfur crisis.

"Look at what is going on in Iraq. The United States kept saying there were weapons of mass destruction (in Iraq). The same thing with genocide. After six months, it will say there is no genocide (in Sudan)," he said."

5 TenRing  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 9:53:36am

No question - it's unbelievably creative ignorance on the part of ms. moonbat.

6 TMF  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 9:53:38am

Stupid is as stupid does.

7 killbuckner  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 9:53:44am

Charles- you have given us a thread to discuss the lunacy of the left. Please give us one to discuss the last handhold they still have: the selectric composer. You have discussed at length that the odds of the composer matching the proportional spacing of MS word approaches Zero. Well with this chart [Link: www.ibmcomposer.org...] and some analysis we can say that it is EXACTLY zero. We know exactly how a composer would have typed this out. Please post that chart on the front page and give us a place to destroy the last bastion of hope the left has.

Someone in another thread has already simulated the composer text in Java if someone wants to do a comparison. [Link: users.ev1.net...] we can find out exactly how long each line (or word) would be if it were done by a composer. Please just give us one thread so we can end this argument.

8 AG in Houston  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 9:53:46am
9 adam_dc  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 9:55:16am

Sudan's foreign minister yesterday accused the Bush administration of trying to woo African-American voters and diverting attention from Iraq by seeking to stir up international action over the Darfur crisis.

"Look at what is going on in Iraq. The United States kept saying there were weapons of mass destruction (in Iraq). The same thing with genocide. After six months, it will say there is no genocide (in Sudan)," he said."

How long before the Kerry campaign picks up on this vast right wing conspiracy?

10 Charles  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 9:55:41am

I'm bothering with her because she is being cited as an "expert" on quite a few blogs on the other side of the aisle.

11 underground  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 9:56:25am

I posted this on another thread, but Captains Quarters is having a look at Mr. Kerry's citation documents and finding additional curiosities.

Is anyone interested in this point? I am tying it in because of the potential provenance of the Killian letters being the Kerry campaign.

Some old dogs may not have learned new tricks.

12 zombie  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 9:56:37am

Check out all the news reports mentioning LGF!! :

Google News search for "Little Green Footballs"
Google News search for littlegreenfootballs.com

You're hittin' the bigtime, Chucky! (You don't mind being called Chucky, do you Charles?)

(Unfortunately, the same search technique doesn't work too well for "Charles Johnson" because it's such a common name -- there are several famous sports figures with that name, so there are zillions of false hits.)

13 addison  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 9:57:09am

Showing once again that one need not be mature or even able to think clearly to have a website.

“I’m the best expert I know..."


Then you obviously do not know many people.

14 underground  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 9:57:09am

and then forget the link, dang PIMF

CQB Kerry Citations

15 Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 9:57:47am

Sorry for the early OT, but some good polling news out again today.

And, BTW Charles, thank you for all the work you have personally put into debunking these TANG documents. You and the guys at Powerline, et. al. are doing the whole country a service, and I'm glad to see you're finally getting the recognition you deserve from outside the blogosphere!

16 Amos (Zionist Minion)  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 9:57:54am

Killian's family said Killian never typed. However, they didn't say he never typeset. / LLL

17 William  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 9:57:56am
If all I had to work with was a photocopy, my patch wouldn’t match. I had to measure the original printed page.

Yet CBS News can state the documents are "authentic" using the same faxed memos, and not having the original printed page?

Such apologists who defy logic and reality are at least good for entertainment value...

Except that CBS News using forged documents to alter a Federal election isn't exactly funny...
 

18 Doss  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 9:58:14am

The cluebat striketh!

19 Doss  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:00:10am

Moonbat... meet cluebat.

20 kps  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:02:01am

#7 killbuckner - Shape of Days addressed the Selectric Composer question.

21 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:02:33am

Charles,

Consider this her application for consideration as a nominee for Idiotarian of the Year for 2004.

Also, any idea how many IBM Selectric Composers were sold in 1972 and 1973, and who bought them?

22 Beagle  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:02:51am

#9 adam_dc

That shows the Sudanese government does not understand the monolithic black vote, or the general disinterest in Sudanese atrocities running through all American communities. That comment does show consciousness of guilt though. The Sudanese government knows black people in this country should care about the Sudanese genocide. That might push the CBC into making an issue of it.

23 tedzilla99  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:03:14am

I guess she didn't learn how to use a space bar in typesetting school, didshe? haha

24 Occasional Reader  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:03:15am

Just checking in on my 1973 Smith- [bing!]
Corona typewriter to say good job Charles, [bing!]
and keep up the good work. It is tire- [bing!]
less blogging like yours that will keep the main-[bing!]
stream media quasi-honest.

25 K.  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:04:58am

#14

I second that.

26 badanov  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:05:28am

But the other question is, how can we restore some semblance of responsibility to news reporting?

Send Dan packing?

27 tedzilla99  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:06:43am

Boortz was saying those typesetting machines were $4000 in 70's dollars, which is what, like $25K now? Yeah I'm sure the National Guard had a ton of those on every desk and a couple of spares in the closet.

28 Daybrother  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:07:26am

I think she feels that some irresponsible media types are questioning the validity of the documents. Their block captains will have to speak to them.


"I like Frank, I just want his money."
........Jimmy Carl Black

29 Californican  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:08:20am
technoweenie

Bwahahahahaaa!

30 killbuckner  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:08:39am

KPS- I have seen that but one example isn't enough. We need to show that no matter what the font was it could NEVER match. People are still reporting the the composer could have done them. With that chart we can prove beyond ANY doubt that the composer could not have. People here are just ignoring what the left is saying. We need to have much more data on the composer than we do. CBS still has an out as long as we have not definitively ruled out the composer using more analysis than ONE sample of text.

31 addison  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:08:40am

#27,

$17365

32 Andrew B.  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:09:46am

#2 + #3

If you do not respond to these kind of idiots...more and more of them will attack you.

That's why every single time it's imperative to take care of these trolls...one by one.

Andrew B.

33 underground  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:09:58am

It may be a way to finally link the chain in such a way that it does not pass through CBS, and the Kerry campaign can be called on it

34 Cam  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:10:28am

#21 Ward Cleaver:

Consider this her application for consideration as a nominee for Idiotarian of the Year for 2004.

I wouldn't bother. It was a fairly crowded field but it appears that Mr. Rather has broken out and is leading the pack by a mile.

#10 Charles:

For a typographical "expert", she certainly seems to have an aversion to using the space bar.

35 lawhawk  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:10:29am

I prefer technodweeb myself. Geek will also suffice.

36 Mr Kufr  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:10:51am

Even if it could be argued successfully that someone could have typed this up in '73, how could they explain a Major ordering the 'sugarcoating' 18 months after leaving the military? I have'nt heard any excuses for that yet.

37 Cato the Elder  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:11:24am

My moonbat brother just sent me this, as though it were a slam-dunk refutation of the forgery hypothesis:

"MEMOIRS OF A COMMUNIST TYPOGRAPHY [sic], OR, MAXSPEAK SUCCUMBS"
[Link: www-dot-maxspeak-dot-org...]

(Sorry for the mangled URL - LGF seems to ban Maxspeak. You'll have to reconstruct the address and scroll down a bit.)

This is so weak, it's hardly worth taking on, but if anyone feels like doing a point-by-point, please let me know so I can send it to my brother.

(Of course, he's already threatened to delete any further emails from me on the subject, so he may not even read it. The LLL's I know seem to be getting a bit tetchy. Wonder why?)

38 Elcid  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:11:55am

Well I don't know about the rest of you,but we always typeset shit around here, like daily to do's list, grocery stuff, all correspondence with the pope, you know shit like that.

39 azul93gt  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:13:40am

Ms. Expert is all over the ballpark. If according to her the docs cannot be proven to be inauthentic or authentic based on copies and CBS cannot produce the originals then these docs are absolutely worthless and should never have been brought before the public.

40 alegrias  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:14:33am

#22 Beagle

The Congressional Black Caucus can't be bothered with Sudan's problems. They're busy swarming around Kerry like Palestinians around a missile target, to judge by 9/11 WaPo article with lots of pictures this weekend. CBC has a death wish.

Meanwhile back at Kerry campaign HQ, CBS was doing its bit to save JFK's derriere using 1973 MicroSoft & Xerox Magic.

41 kstagger  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:15:16am

why CBS will stop stonewalling...
[Link: www.nationalreview.com...]

42 Miss Trixie  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:15:26am

#24 Occasional Reader

Now that's funny! [bing!]
You crack me up! Hahahahaha [bing!]
[bing!]
[bing!]

You just made my day! [bing!]


:D

43 JohnAnnArbor  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:15:34am

From what's-her-name:
"But the other question is, how can we restore some semblance of responsibility to news reporting?"

Like, only reporting facts that agree with your worldview?

44 killbuckner  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:15:59am

Charles- we have the CHART that says exactly what the composer proportional font would look like. Where EVERY letter break would be. Why on earth won't you stick that chart on the front page and let people tear the composer argument to shreds?? CBS is still saying the composer could do it. "Experts" right now are saying that "the technology existed" because the composer could do both superscript and proportional fonts. Its time to explicitly rule out the composer and this chart makes it possible. Lets stop patting each other on the back and take down the last piece of hope the left has.

45 V the K  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:16:10am

Attention CBS News and Apologist Lefty Moonbat Bloggers, some information for your use.

1.) Those slippery planks attached to your feet are in fact water skis.

2.) The big fish with the teeth and the dorsal fin swimming below you is, in fact, a shark.

3.) Even if you should manage to reach the opposite ramp, your credibility with all but your die-hard fans will be gone.

If this post makes no sense to you, you may want to

click here.

Thank you and God Bless.

46 kstagger  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:17:09am

#41, oops - that should have been NEVER stop stonewalling

47 Model4  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:19:40am
O’Brien writes more about the typewriters available in the 1970s, speculating that one of the IBM Selectric models could have done this.

So lets have someone that owns one type up the memo and see it. In fact, it would be kind of cool if a web page started up where all kinds of typewriters from the 60s and 70s were used to type the infamous forgeries and overlaid with CBS's shameful "evidence." Oh yeah, no special techniques or modifications used in replicating the forgeries, as we're talking about a horrid and reluctant typist who was making a memo for himself.

So, let’s dispense with the “proportional type” theory. I’ve looked at thePDF files, and IMO the quality thereof is too far removed from the original (the wavy baselines are a dead giveaway) to know what the original type proportion was. And any “kerning” one might see is probably the result of distortion that occurs in photocopies that are generations removed from an original.

So why does it look so different in Apple's TextEdit Barbara?

#2 - agree - Charles why bother with her? You're just giving her hits to her site.

That's the difference between the two sides. People like Charles want both to be heard, and let the people make up their own minds on what the more credible argument is. For the other, indoctrination and spin that benefits them is all that's allowed.

-ModelForged

48 Occasional Reader  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:20:25am

#42 Miss Trixie: thanks! [takes bow]

Apropos of the subject; I am a member of what's probably the very last generation to use typewriters to hammer out our college papers. To anyone who has a decent memory of what typewritten documents looked like, these CBS (emphasis on "BS") concoctions should have looked bogus from a mile away. So, to the Kerry campaign; I don't mind so much that you're forgers, but it bothers me that you're so goddam inept!

49 rosh  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:20:28am

24

Just checking in on my 1973 Smith- [bing!]
Corona typewriter to say good job Charles, [bing!]
and keep up the good work. It is tire- [bing!]
less blogging like yours that will keep the main-[bing!]
stream media quasi-honest.

see I woulda done:
Just checking in on my 1973 Smith- [bing!]
Corona typewriter to say good job Charles, [bing!]
and keep up the good work. It is tire[bing!]less
blogging like yours that will keep the main[bing!]stream
media quasi-honest.

Cause I was a famous ignorer of [bings] and runner right off the page onto the platen, thus ruining it eventually and those things are expensive (voice of mom in head)

50 Lawrence Schmerel  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:20:56am

Charles:

You should start a new 537 organization and call it:

Junior Technoweenies for Truth!

51 EW1(SG)  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:20:57am
junior technoweenie on Little Green Footballs

Junior? Well, I suppose if you count all the Phds running around here...or maybe she means agewise: guess she hasn't met Colt yet.

#7 killbuckner, give it a rest, please!

#24 OR: I'm getting very close to an exact match of the memo with my recreated Babbage engine.

52 G.W.  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:21:20am

Apparently never learned about entropy. James Taranto makes that point in Best of the Web Today; also points to lgf.

G.W.

53 scott in east bay  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:21:52am

Lord, this woman is nuts. I mentioned in another post that in for most of 1973, I was stationed at Castle AFB in California, home of the 4077th (NO superscript) Bomb Wing. This unit was the sole, only, uno, crew training unit for ALL crews of ALL B-52s used by the USAF, including during all of the Vietnam War. In fact, I arrived there in last 1972, and most of the B-52s in the states were routed through us to go to Guam, where they then bombed the hell out of Hanoi, Vinh, and Haiphong. Our base, and our unit, had very good connections. In fact, we were the ONLY bomb wing with a one-star in command, rather than a colonel. That gave us some status (really, it did). I was public information, press, PR flack, etc. I gave fucking tours of B-52s to Congressmen, for god's sake. I had a Selectric on my desk. It was new. It had the little ball. But nowhere, anywhere, did anybody have a little stash of other little balls that we could switch around to do superscripts, as she seems to say. What does she think we did all day, change type fonts? And no, I didn't send anything out to the "girls" to type.

54 Atlas Wannabe  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:23:11am

Huh?

56 Occasional Reader  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:24:23am

#45 V the K: I actually saw the "Happy Days" shark-jumping episode a couple of months back. (And no, I'm not unemployed, why do you ask?) The only thing weirder than the actual shark-jumping was the sight of Fonzie walking down the beach wearing teeny-tiny shorts, engineer boots, and a black leather jacket. Why has this NOT become some sort of gay icon?

57 Geepers  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:24:29am

Elcid (#38),

Sure, you can typeset "to do" and grocery lists, but you need to get with the times.

A view camera, arc-light table and a photo-offset printer is the best way to go.

58 Smitty  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:25:43am

Ah, the old "technically possible" argument again (with curly quotes). This kills me:

Even a reduced superscript "th" was technically possible, in spite of what the wingnuts are saying now.


She says it was technically possible but not actually possible on the machines she's referring to. Weak argument.
It's technically possible for me to build my own house, but I won't.

59 addison  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:25:56am

Perhaps why the forger thought Staudt would be around to pressure "Hodges" in 1973. A 1988 Boston Globe story incorrectly reported that Staudt retired in 1975.

60 Dime IV  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:26:30am

*Eyes rolling madly while reading O'Brien*

"...some technoweenie...."

I’m bouncing around the web seeing wingnuts flying off about proportional letter spacing and kerning and whatnot, and I’m telling you these people are off the wall."

"...dissed...."

How old is BO'B? Twelve? Dig her ad hominen perjoratives. Now THAT'S CLASSY! /sarcasm

Geez, why doesn't she just finish her thought: "...wingnuts flying off about proportional letter spacing and kerning and whatnot and thingies and doodads and whatchamacallits and...you know...bleechy, yucky technical stuff...."

Joel T.

61 Elder_of_Ziyon  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:26:50am

How to prove that the 15th generation photocopies are proportional:

1) Count the number of characters in a line.
2) Divide by line length.
3) Repeat for next line.

If the answer is not very close for each line, they were never monospaced.

But somehow the "expert" didn't think of that. What an idiot.

62 wong fei hung  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:26:51am

What a twit.

"I'm an expert."

A lifetime in a profession does not make a person an EXPERT. They may be knowledgeable, however, they are not an EXPERT. Experts are usually cited as such by OTHERS first. CJ gave us his resume and backed up his ability to discuss typefont. The man NEVER said he was an EXPERT.

Does having been sexually active for the past decade give me the right to call myself an amateur gynecologist?

63 killbuckner  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:27:48am

Give what a rest? If we just get one thread devoted to eliminating the selectric composer as a possiblity then the last refuge of shelter that CBS has will be gone. Its obvious to anyone paying attention that what CBS is going to do is say that the selectric composer was capable of reproducing these memos and no one can prove that Killian didn't use it. That will be the end of the story.

Thats why we need to get ironclad proof that the composer didn't do this. We need to do it now. And whats frustrating is that I KNOW exactly why the composer couldn't do this but I don't have either word or photoshop. That chart has all the information we need to explicitly say the composer could never have done these memos. THe left is still hiding from this by saying the composer could do these. THe only reason they are still able to say that is laziness on our part. If we just take the effort to rule out the composer this argument is OVER. No need to rely on whether the TANG had composers. No need to rely on the cost. All we need to do is put some effort in. WHy wouldn't I keep pushing to get that done?

64 Cy_Kologis  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:27:49am
If all I had to work with was a photocopy, my patch wouldn’t match. I had to measure the original printed page.

This is why she is so clueless. The Ph.D. who did really precise matching used an algorithm that adjusted original by varying a number of parameters: left-right, up-down, rotation, shear, size. Since the program automatically adjusts for size to make the match, you don't need the original to get exact sizes. I should also add this: that since the parameterization is of such low order, there is no way that it could distort the image to an extent to produce a false positive. (I wonder how long it will be before the spin-meisters start on that front.)

If you are measuring a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy scanned into a PDF file, e.g. the Killian documents, forget it.

This is just patently wrong. There is a huge academic field of image restoration that addresses this very issues. One technique uses mathematical models of what happens to an image when you photocopy, or scan, or whatever, and uses what information hasn't been lost in the image to restore a best estimate of what was the original image. A half a day perusing the following journals would be enough to convince anyone with a background in engineering she is wrong on this:

IEEE Transactions on Medical Imaging
IEEE Transactions on Image Processing
IEEE Transactions on Information Theory

65 Thom  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:27:59am

I hate to spoil everyone's fun, but I got a Selectric, Executive, and Composer from Ebay and I was able to duplicate exactly every memo in question on all three with absolutely no problem at all.

66 blt  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:28:20am
The probability of not one, but several 70s-era typewritten memos being mutated by multiple copying into perfect, proportionally spaced wonders that look as if they came from a typesetter is ... well, I leave that as an intellectual exercise for our gentle readers. (Hint: start at about zero.)


Another hint for any intellectually-challenged gentle readers: Charles already gave us that probability on Prager today -- something to do with meteor fragments.

67 Occasional Reader  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:28:40am

#51 EW1(SG): I always suspected you guys at [name of EW1(SG)'s employer CLASSIFIED] had wayyyy too much time on your hands!

68 abu_garcia  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:30:14am

Poor girl has BDS. As we say down home, "she's just eat' up with it."

69 Geepers  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:30:31am

Smitty (#58),

When someone says something is "technically possible" what they meant to say was virtually impossible.

70 BingoBunny  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:30:52am

I have sent e-mails to everyone i think will investigate CBS 60 minutes. attempt to use forged records to elect John Forgery Kerry. Will dan come clean. or take the 5th.

71 azul93gt  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:31:07am

At this point I think that the leftie bloggers are just jealous that Charles with his blog has actually been able to accomplish something positive and constructive when all the leftie bloggers can do is bitch, moan, stomp their feet, and throw endless tantrums.

72 wong fei hung  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:32:32am

#65 Thom

And you will post these online for perusal, right?

73 Ckimoo  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:33:07am

What bothers me is that these folks think that there is only 1 verson of Times New Roman and there isn't.
I think Charles has pointed out that they all have subtle differences.
It was never intended that a font type be completely uniform across the spectrum.
These people just plain make things up!

Do you think it's a cooincidence that these things hit the press right when Carville comes on board?
Like, they are trying to lose the election now, yes?

74 Michael Moore's Dromedary  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:33:45am

O'Brien.

Stop. Smoking. Your. Socks.

75 Thom  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:34:34am

#72 wong fei hung

Well, no. I had them reviewed by a document expert and he said the match was perfect.

76 addison  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:34:37am

#68 abu_garcia,

Mississippi?

__________________________________________

CBS got this from someone closely connected to the Democrat Party. If CBS admits err, they have to burn their source, otherwise they look even more suspicious. If that source is close to Kerry, well...game over.

77 Gretchen  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:37:01am

Weird, I personally know about 15 people who are better experts than Babs O'B.

Thom: What are you going to do with the $37K prize? Congrats!

Check out a real expert:
[Link: www.selectric.org...]

I know, I know, that site was set up by Karl Rove right after they retrofitted all existing Selectrics so they would not match these docs.

I posted this before but if these are legit where are the other hundreds of non-Bush related memos that match this one exactly eminating from Killian's office? Are we to believe he only wrote memos about Bush and/or he only saved memos about Bush when he died 20 years or so before Bush became President.

78 biz  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:37:03am

thom, more evidence please.

79 EW1(SG)  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:38:23am

#67 OR:

...had wayyyy too much time on your hands!

Possibly. But thats why we're able to come up with all that really cool

...CLASSIFIED...

stuff!

80 wong fei hung  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:39:08am

#75 Thom

And there's no way you can scan these and post them online?

P.S. The expert wasn't one Barbara O'Brien, was it?

81 Marty  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:40:47am

Cool- I am the first one to catch this!

Post you http://www.mahablog.com/2004.09.05_arch.html#10948 52190259 on September 10th:


Even I think I am spending way too much time on the Killian memo issue, but I'm visiting it again because, >dammit, I'm an expert. And I don't think they are forgeries.

I'm not an expert. I'm just an old lady who spent a lot of time typing with electric typewriters back then. But I KNOW I'M RIGHT.

82 Miss Trixie  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:41:01am

IBM Selectric Composer:


The IBM "Selectric" Composer was the first desktop typesetting machine. It was based on the successful "Selectric" technology. In case you're not familiar with that, the IBM Selectric typewriter is the one that has a small ball with all the letters imprinted on it.

The basic task of the IBM Composer was to produce justified camera ready copy using proportional fonts. It has the capability of using a variety of font sizes and styles.

The first IBM Composer was the IBM "Selectric" Composer announced in 1966. It was a hybrid "Selectric" typewriter that was modified to have proportional spaced fonts. It is 100% mechanical and has no digital electronics. Since it has no memory, the user was required to type everything twice. While typing the text the first time, the machine would measure the length of the line and count the number of spaces. When the user finished typing a line of text, they would record special measurements into the right margin of the paper. Once the entire column of text was typed and measured, it would then be retyped, however before typing each line, the operator would set the special justification dial (on the right side) to the proper settings, then type the line. The machine would automatically insert the appropriate amount of space between words so that all of the text would be justified.

Selectric Composer - In case you didn't know

83 Thom  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:42:10am

#78 biz
#80 wong fei hung

I don't have my own scanner and the nearest Kinko's is about 1000 miles away. But, as I said, they were reviewed by an expert and the match is perfect. I stand by that ironclad conclusion.

84 wong fei hung  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:44:16am

Let's examine the situation with a little thing called LOGIC:

Forget that the correct abbreviation is TANG and on the letter, Killian (allegdly) signed off TexANG. Who the @#$% would type up a "CYA" letter and file it? Please remove your head from your SPHINCTER before attempting to answer this.

Would'nt you WRITE the letter and advise the person you are sending it to to destroy it after they read it? Better yet, advise them with A PHONE CALL instead?

85 Ckimoo  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:44:54am

Thom, (#65)
You haven't spoiled anyone's fun.
You just proved how easy it is to lie.
Calling your bluff!

86 Californican  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:45:08am

#65 Thom

Really? what auction? Could you please supply the Item #s for both of these transactions? No offence meant, but I'd like to fact check your ass.

87 Atlas Wannabe  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:45:15am

Thom:

Are you full of shit or do you work for CBS?

Never mind...

88 wong fei hung  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:45:58am

Forgive me for being a pain in the ass, Thom, but it was easier for you to get hold of a handwriting expert than a Kinko's?

89 Marty  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:46:17am

Oops- the second half of that is in her earlier post on the 10th. Go back and scroll down on her site. I think it is a case of split personality.

90 BingoBunny  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:47:26am

#63 There is a site i saw a few hours ago that has done this.. think i saw it on captain's Quarters or a link from there.. it was no where close.. looked about the same side by side.. but superimposed wasn't even close. Sorry i can't tell ya more.

91 Keelie  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:47:57am

LIke the chap on the other thread said:

This is not subject to debate by rational men.

A lot of that going around.

92 Rock the Casbah  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:48:16am

All Hail the Junior Techno-weenie

Our beloved Lizardoid Master

93 nvdoyle  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:48:42am

'Hyenas on the right'

I like that.

Yes, Barb, we're nipping at your heels. You, and Rather, and CBS, and Kerry. If not this time, then someday you'll stumble, fall, and it'll all be over.

Watch the Discovery Channel, Barb. Here's a hint: you're the gazelle.

(We're laughing at you, too.)

94 Lyana  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:49:35am

Is it mean of me to be sitting here giggling at the duplicity on display? Well, it's more fun than being mad that self-proclaimed experts think we're just that stupid.

Thanks to the bloggesphere, I feel like I've had a graduate level crash course about fonts and the origins thereof, typwriters vs. typesetters, kerns, Military memo/abbreviation standards for the early 1970's, and on and on and on in the past few days. Learned more about those topics than I'd ever wanted to! But it was there. I wasn't told how to think, or what to think. It provided information so that I could decide for myself.

Maybe that's what this is all about we just aren't acting like the "sheeple" we're supposed to be! We've moved way past reasonable proof; these people are entrenched in BELIEF, and I'm afraid nothing we say, no proof that is brought, will sway them.

95 Thom  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:49:40am

#85 Ckimoo

Are you calling me a liar?!

#86 Californican

Umm ... hmm. Shit, I can't remember. Sorry.

#88 wong fei hung

Yes. By an incredible stroke of luck one of the world's premier document experts lives in the cabin over in the next holler.

96 Lawrence Schmerel  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:50:22am

This article relieved some of my anxiety about CBS. If the thesis is correct, we will all know for sure within a week or two.

97 ördög Johnson  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:50:58am

#63 killbuckner

Well, you need to read the treads with attention, cuz if you did, you would find out it has been already done. The Shape of Days: IBM Selectric Composer

98 Tish  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:51:09am

#83 Thom

I am happy for you that you have resolved this controversy so completely for yourself.

However, since you will not name your expert, nor permit us to view your re-creations of the memos via the Web, you will please permit us to continue the discussion.

#63 Killbuckner

The chart you have supplied would probably lay many doubts to rest, if people could be bothered to do the calculations required. Since they usually won't, visual proof is best, for example, Charles' overlays.

Of course, when dealing with LLLs and ABBs one must understand that there is no way on earth to get a contrasting point of view across their sensory media - they just blank it out.

99 gargamel  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:51:09am

Thom is pulling your leg :)

100 BingoBunny  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:51:35am

#65 Thom Superimpose them and tell us that ..i have seen the result and its laughable.. to claim this makes cBS story true.. drink the kool ade again..

101 dazoid81  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:51:42am

Thom

I have unequivocal proof that there are intelligent beings from the planet Melmac who have come to earth! One of them is living with me... I've got plenty of pictures of him and myself, and a scanner, but the strangest thing is my scanner never works when I try to scan a picture with him in it! We've met with an expert on extraterestrials and he assures me my friend is from outerspace, but for reasons I'm sure you'll understand I don't want to turn him over to the government. But I have the proof right here, you'll take my word for it, I'm sure.

102 EW1(SG)  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:52:11am

#88 wong fei hung:

Forgive me for being a pain in the ass, Thom, but it was easier for you to get hold of a handwriting expert than a Kinko's?

He called me on the phone...

103 Ckimoo  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:52:31am

Thom did not get his IBM typewriters off of eBay.
No one's bought an IBM Executive or Composer on eBay since this thing came out. Easily checkable.

In fact, no one has bought a Selectric or an Executive since the end of August!

There is an IBM Composer for sale and the bids are hot for something this old!
If you have an old IBM typewriter, now is the time to dig it out and sell it to a moonbat on eBay.

Funny thing about these folks is that they can't even lie convincingly.

104 Keelie  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:53:05am

#94 - Lyana

Yes - belief systems are like that; difficult to shake off... Even the threat of death and destruction can't shake them off many people... A kind of insecurity.

Lot of that going around...

105 Californican  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:53:45am

Thom, Don't ever try to fool an Ebay Queen!

10 lashes!

106 Cam  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:55:26am

Thom:

Are you pulling an Aisha?

107 Thom  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:55:54am

#98 Tish

Hey, if it's good enough for CBS why is it not good enough for me??

Oppressor.

#102 EW1(SG)

LOL.

108 Asylum Aleikum  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:56:03am

"... the question remains: how likely is it that multiple photocopies of a monospaced document would deform it in such a way that it precisely matches the line spacing, character spacing, line breaks and tab stops in a document created with Microsoft Word?"

"There is a special department of Hell the DNC for students of probability. In this department there are many typewriters and many monkeys moonbats. Every time that a monkey moonbat walks on a typewriter, it types by chance one of Shakespeare's sonnets Bush's TANG memos." --Bertrand Russel Terry McAuliffe

109 Thom  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:56:37am

#106 Cam

I couldn't help it.

Sorry.

110 RIP Ford  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:57:36am

#95 Thom

You're pure evil. :P

111 Ckimoo  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:57:47am

Uh, Thom.
I'm not calling you a liar.
I am just pointing out that in this instance, you lied.
I don't know who you are or what you believe or how those beliefs would lead you to post what you did.
But, it was easily checkable and what you posted is not true.
I think you were just having a little fun poking the hornets' nest!

112 Lyana  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 10:58:59am

#104 Keelie

I guess old habits die hard - They're used to being able to tell us what to do and what's good for us with little opposition. Didn't you just love Mrs. JFH-K's intimation that those who opposed her husband's health care "solutions" were idiots?!?

Viva la blog!

113 Cam  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 11:01:08am

#109 Thom:

LOL. I figured you were either Aisha-ing, someone had taken over your 'puter, or maybe slipped you some really wicked windowpane acid...

;-)

114 Californican  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 11:02:21am

#103 Ckimoo

No, um actually there have been a few Selectrics sold after the story broke, try sorting it by latest.
This one sold on the 10th

115 Miggie  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 11:04:19am

It seems kind of ridiculous to have to cite any credentials in this situation. Anyone who ever used a typewriter, even a Selectric, knows you can't produce documents like that. Just to say that there may have been some version out there that could have produced them is still a hell of a stretch to think this military officer had one or had access to such a special expensive typewriter.

Anyone who ever marveled how computer word processing programs did these formatting wonders effortlessly and automatically knows that these typewritten memos must be fraudulent.

And to further admit all this and then go on to suggest that the memos must have been planted by Carl Rove to dupe CBS is so intellectually bankrupt that it hard to believe. These guys have gone off the deep end grasping at those straws.

It is clear the LLL and MSM are circling the drain.

116 Occasional Reader  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 11:04:56am

I am here in my capacity as Thom's erstwhile lawyer to say, HE DOESN'T HAVE TO ANSWER ANY MORE OF YOUR FASCIST QUESTIONS! We shalll ooover-cooommme....

117 Californican  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 11:04:59am

...and Thom, don't EVEN try to tell us you are
bob8022

118 mad_scientist  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 11:06:33am
or maybe slipped you some really wicked windowpane acid...

windowpane acid?? Is that worse than the ominous "brown acid" at woodstock??

119 whosoever  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 11:08:18am

Now Thom,
You know it's not nice to tease our new friends. I see you over there, trying not to laugh.

120 lawhawk  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 11:11:55am

You know, this reminds me of somthing - that when it came to writing business letters and other memos at some of the places I've worked, we stuck to a left justification on form letters since it was not easy to duplicate the centering from document to document. We didn't want to hassle with trying to center stuff, especially when using letterhead.

With computers and laser printers, that problem all but disappeared so you could center sections of documents properly.

121 Relish  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 11:14:09am

#115

The other thing that no one seems to notice is that there don't seem to be any mistakes for this reluctant or untrained typist (Lt Col Killian) on a very complex piece of equipment.

I've been typing for 30 years and I'm sure I'd still make a mistake or two if I were typing off the top of my head (I just made three typing that sentence--thank goodness for word processors!)

I don't see anything in any of the memos that indicates any type of correction (Ko-Rec-Type, Wite-Out, and correction tape were never that good!), so somebody has some 'splainin' to do...

122 Cam  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 11:15:12am

#118 mad_scientist:

Not that I have any direct knowledge, of course .... but ... somebody told me that windowpane acid ws around in the late 80's and essentially ripped the top of your skull off and gave your brains a wee stir.

That's what I heard, anyway.

;-)

123 RickZ  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 11:15:33am

Thom:

Sheesh. When the joint's crowded, everyone wants to talk louder than everyone else. Almost like white keyboard noise, or something like that. That was a funny 'test' you did.

Now about that Chesapeake Bay Bridge (minus) Tunnel thing you got going on down there . . . .

124 Elder_of_Ziyon  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 11:16:50am

Someone should get a hold of Walter Cronkite and ask his opinion. He may be liberal but he was a respected newsman - if he says CBS should investigate its own sources, CBS would look even worse.

And if he defends CBS, well, his own reputation would suffer.

125 Designer  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 11:17:41am

I have been a graphic designer for 24+ years. I have worked with type setting equipment such as varitypers, Kroy typers and LinoType Typesetting equipment that has evolved into the desktop publishing software we regularly use today. I work with typography everyday.

The Selectric Composer that these "people" claim as the machine in question, is used for typesetting for final print. It produces camera ready typography for high quality print reproduction. Similar to the Lino-type Hell machines of the 80s and 90s.

Why a commander would use a machine, i.e. the Selectric Composer, that cost nearly $4000.00 in 72, to produce type that was of the highest reproduction quality baffles me. Guard units usually get the left overs from the active duty units as items are replaced. I highly doubt that a AF Guard commander would have a typesetting machine is his office. And especially a flying unit. You'd be lucky to find a typewriter in those units.

And memos for record or "MFRs" are pecked out quickly on the nearest typewriter you can find. I should know, during my 20 year career in the Air Force (retired in 2001), I pecked out quite a few myself. Memos for record are usually copied and placed in a personal file and signed. After the troop leaves or is reassigned, the MFRs are destroyed. The only record that follows the troop are his/her evaluations or OERs/EPRs and any relevent training records.

Another issue I have concerns with are the symantics and style of writing. Air Force people don't write like that. The acronyms, punctuation, and date-line style are all inconsistent with the style of writing we were required to use. Dates were writren: 4 FEB 73 not 04 Feb 1973. The 111th Fighter Squadron would have been written: 111FS and Group would have been written GP, not Grp. No abbreviations, superscript, periods or comas. There are too many inconsistencies in the documnets in question. I would have to say, in my confident opinion, they were written by someone that didn't have any Air Force or military experience whatsoever.

Air Force Commanders a required by regulation to adhere to specific standards of writing for consistency. The DoD demands it.

126 sharona  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 11:19:15am

This broad gets a Master's in Journalism (not a Master of ARts or Science, she is sure to interject), and she calls our Lizardoid Master a "junior technoweenie"? I beg your freaking pardon?

What a self-aggrandizing witch! What a frigid, hysterical example of BDS!

Camille Paglia has written about women who are so overeducated that they no longer possess the common sense, wisdom, and instincts of their lesser-educated sisters. Barbara O'Brien (I'm sorry, but coming from an Irish-Catholic family, I can see where her unquestioning Leftist perspective comes from) is the personification of Camille's worst fears. Would she happen to be from Boston originally?

127 Smapty  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 11:19:24am

Mr. Charles,


Why don't you create a "do-it-yourself" intructions on how to create the MS Word reproduction and CBS printout to go along with it? i.e. ......... etc..

It sounds like this O'Brien person hasn't even tried to make a reproduction herself.

128 Thom  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 11:19:40am

#110 RIP Ford

Thanks! I signed up for evil night school over at the community college, and - let me tell you - it's a worthwhile investment.

Just the unit on how the chupacabra was genetically engineered and released into the wild to distract people's attention away from Halliburton's diamond pipeline in Afghanistan alone was worth the cost.

I mean, that is frickin' evil.

129 ballantrae  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 11:21:21am

#127

Yeah, that's the biggest flaw in her arguement. She simply isn't willing to show an example.

It's typically liberal. All theory no reality.

-ron

130 Smapty  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 11:21:53am

meh!

It comented out my examples. I'll try again with brackets...


i.e. [Open Word]...[Set Defaults]...[Center].... etc.

131 Thom  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 11:24:09am

#116 Occasional Reader

Thanks, mouthpiece. These frickin' fact-checkers are givin' me a hassle.

#119 whosoever

And failing. I now understand the attraction of frolling (no, I won't take up frolling as a hobby).

#123 RickZ

I can let you have that cheap!

132 RIP Ford  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 11:25:49am

#128 Thom

LOL

133 Cato the Elder  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 11:31:49am

How much foul, excess hubris does it take to name your blog The Mahablog...?

(For those who aren't up on their Hindi or Sanskrit, the prefix maha- means "great.")

The Great Blog. Yup!

[Snicker.]

134 Charles  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 11:32:54am

Check my update -- O'Brien has shut off her comments and labeled everyone who posted anything at her site as "trolls."

135 levi from queens  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 11:33:18am

killbuyckner-- I have to work for a few more hours. I'll bang it out before I go to bed. Please send me your e-mail address.

136 Furious J  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 11:33:38am

Okay, the Update made me check out her little blog. What is it about lefty female bloggers that they all seem to be graduates of the Jean Teasdale school of prose styling? Kind of a twitty bubbleheaded style laden with faux-intimate details and lame analogies? Kind of like, if Peggy Hill did ecstasy, that's what her "musings" would read like.

137 Craig Abu Al-Boo-Boo  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 11:35:11am

The woman is owned!

138 Occasional Reader  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 11:37:37am

#13 Thom:

Thanks, mouthpiece.

You're welcome. That'll be $1,747.65.

[sound of meter running]

139 Thom  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 11:43:03am

{Gulp. Good thing I have some bridge revenue coming my way ...}

140 Keelie  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 11:44:16am

#112 - Lyana

What an inspiring combination: a rock-hard belief system with rock-hard arrogance.

141 A Recovering Liberal  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 11:44:34am

It was my impression that an expert in type would spell it "leading," not "ledding." Quite an expert she is.

Yes, nitpicky I am. As a magazine editor, that's what pays my bills (c:

142 jemima  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 11:51:44am

#57 Geepers

Sure, you can typeset "to do" and grocery lists, but you need to get with the times.

A view camera, arc-light table and a photo-offset printer is the best way to go.


I saw that segment on Martha Stewart Living where she showed us how to do it. She said that if we press flowers at the same time and then later affixed them to the cardstock with a hot glue gun they would be very attractive and could double as greeting cards.

143 sharona  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 11:55:53am

#136 Furious J:

Okay, the Update made me check out her little blog. What is it about lefty female bloggers that they all seem to be graduates of the Jean Teasdale school of prose styling? Kind of a twitty bubbleheaded style laden with faux-intimate details and lame analogies? Kind of like, if Peggy Hill did ecstasy that's what her "musings" would read like.

ROTFLMAO! Where do I begin?

Then again, I thought V the K held the exclusive rights to Jean Teasdale references made on LGF. Since yours was so good, I think he'll give you a pass!

BTW: Jean's baaaack!

But there's one thing that's even more inspiring than the prospect of self-employment or giving people a little joy. You see, I recently realized that the driving force in my life, the thing that gets me off the ol' waterbed every morning, is my relentless pursuit of "absolute cute." I saw a show on the learning channel about how the lowest temperature possible is called "absolute zero." Well, why can't there be an "absolute cute"? That is, a form of cuteness that has reached ultimate perfection? I believe that, in their perfected form, pom-pom critters could achieve absolute cuteness.
144 JohnAnnArbor  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 11:57:15am

"Not a word of actual response to my points, of course. And also notice how she won’t even link to LGF, as if she’s afraid that some kind of Internet Cootie Backwash will get on her if she does."

I've noticed that many LLLs will not read or listen to anything that might expose them to new information or a novel opinion. They seem to fear getting "contaminated" with non-socialist thought or something.

145 Hankmeister  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 11:57:20am

What a ditz. What are her credentials in phototypography, desktop publishing or even period typewriters like the IBM Selectric series? If she isn't going show actual samples, then she has to have more than just her nattering naysaying.

After reading her voodoo rantings, which are not much more than a mish-mash of obfuscating confusion, she hasn't contributed one whit of substance to the current debate. It's all posturing rhetoric. I could save her a lot of trouble reproducing those 19th Century works by simply scanning them in with our Ricoh Oficio 6513 and not even have to manipulate images in Photoshop. But I would be making impressive copies of actual originals whereas Ms. O'Brien has yet to establish the genuineness of the memos in question and establish that there was a period mechanical device capable of producing it in the first place. We know 19th Century artisans were using current technology to create their documents BECAUSE WE KNOW THEM TO BE GENUINE! Duh!

Her dishonesty is to equate simple keyboarding and output from Microsoft Word which matches the document in question with a wholesale Photoshop manipulation. She has yet to provide evidence that an IMB Selectric Composer with a special kind of ball is capable of actually producing the Bush memos in question. AND WHERE ARE OTHER LEGITIMATE DOCUMENTS FROM THE 111TH TANG THAT WAS TYPED WITH THAT SAME MYTHICAL TYPEWRITER SUPPOSEDLY USED TO TYPE THE DAMNING MEMOS? Inquiring minds want to know.

146 Cam  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 12:00:14pm

#143 sharona:

Furious J is V the K's alter-nic.

147 Smit  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 12:01:05pm

#All Thom - LOL!!

148 RickZ  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 12:01:35pm

# 139 Thom:

Don't expect full value. It's defective. And in Maryland.

149 jake  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 12:06:52pm

Many of us have pointed out the lunacy of the military buying a super-duper $20,000 typewriter that was only used to type two memos, apparently. I have a funny story that is a pretty cool example of the way government reallyoperates.

For several years in the late 90's, I worked as a computer programmer at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL/NASA). Now, even though Clinton was busy
cutting funding for space exploration, we still had the budget to get pretty much whatever we wanted as far as computer gear to do our work.

However, the payroll department at JPL, up until 1998 or 1999, was still using PUNCH CARD based computer equipment to record our hours each week. Every week, we dutifully filled in the hours we spent working for each account code we were authorized to bill to, in pen, on a timesheet that was printed on an honest-to-God IBM punch card, which someone in payroll then had to keypunch, and that's how they cut our checks! The
kicker is that in 1999, they finally had to transition to a modern, web-based payroll system in part because the old system wasn't Y2K compliant. True story.

The moral of the story is, whether in government or the private sector, if it ain't broke, don't fix it! You simply can't argue that just because the military had access to the cutting-edge of 1973 typewriter technology, they would just wantonly go around buying one for everybody to collect dust, except for those "important" memos about George Bush! That's just absurd, and shows how spoiled and ungrateful a lot of us have become now that powerful PC's have become so inexpensive.

-Jake

150 Kimberly  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 12:06:55pm

#136 -

What is it about lefty female bloggers that they all seem to be graduates of the Jean Teasdale school of prose styling? Kind of a twitty bubbleheaded style laden with faux-intimate details and lame analogies?

It's because they're lefty, and they learned in Lefty School (aka Brown, or Berkeley, or what have you) that feelings and sharing and unrequested intimacy are all so much more important than nasty ol' facts or logic. And if they were at least consistent in that, they'd be innocuous and amusing.

The problem is when they think that what they do IS "logical" and they try to beat us at our own game - witness her referring to Charles as a "junior technoweenie." She thinks her emotional outbursts and name-calling really are a match for genuine technical knowledge, and, people, that's when it gets just plain sad to watch.

This woman - with her whininess and bitchiness and cluelessness, and her desire for attention, and her desire to run and hide the minute someone disagrees with her - gives female bloggers a bad name. I feel like I need to put up a post up on my own blog now reassuring the world that not EVERY female blogger is this much of a pathetic little weenie.

151 greenmamba  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 12:07:08pm

I'm NOT an expert on this by any means; fact is, I'm ignant as all getout.

Nonetheless, I conducted this experiment:

Went to CBS web site and printed off a Kerry document and a couple of the incriminating Bush ones. All look old and grungy.

Noting that Babsy Wabsy said:

So, let's dispense with the "proportional type" theory. I've looked at the PDF files, and IMO the quality thereof is too far removed from the original (the wavy baselines are a dead giveaway) to know what the original type proportion was.

I counted off a bunch of characters in the top line of the Kerry document (that looks very "letterally equispaced " if you get my drift.)

Counted off the same number at the bottom and joined the 2 points with a vertical line.

Then I confirmed that the typed lines in between all had the exact same number of characters counting from the left margin to the vertical line I had drawn.

Did the same with the Bush docs. Different result because the letter spacings are not the same for each character.

I'm afraid one of the prime theses of our great expert is wrong. You can tell if these documents were typed in proportional font or not. It's not a killer point in the debate but it discounts Babs an expert.

I feel so let down.

152 billhedrick  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 12:09:09pm

I dunno, has anybody checked to see what kind of typewriters the ANG had? It would seem to me that if you checked and found that Killian only had access to a certain typewriter that would solve the question without the woulda coulda's.

153 jake  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 12:11:03pm

Oh, I forgot to mention that my high school was using punch cards to schedule our classes every year up until 1993 or '94. They had this huge wooden thing with a few hundred "cubbyholes", each one holding a slot for a particular class and period. They printed one punch card for each seat that the class could hold, and when they ran out of punch cards, they knew the class was full.

Of course those of us who noticed this knew it was totally obsolete, but it goes to show the inertia that truly old technology had, even just 5 or 10 years ago.

154 Joseph  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 12:12:39pm

Charles writes:

The probability of not one, but several 70s-era typewritten memos being mutated by multiple copying into perfect, proportionally spaced wonders that look as if they came from a typesetter is ... well, I leave that as an intellectual exercise for our gentle readers. (Hint: start at about zero.)

One wonders what the odds for evolution, bet upon so many with their souls, is.

155 greenmamba  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 12:14:29pm

#152 billhedrick

It would seem to me that if you checked and found that Killian only had access to a certain typewriter that would solve the question without the woulda coulda's.


Nah, that'll never satisfy the current incarnation of Dem. I mean, it should be obvious, that Killian could have been evaluating a new typewriter and that was used for the memo. I realize that you will argue that the same typeface appears on different dates quite far apart. Fact is, it could have been a long-term evaluation or there may have been several evaluations, thus proving conclusively that the memos are genuine and Bush must go.

156 forever banned  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 12:17:18pm
Now do you see why we call them moonbats?

heh. heh heh.

157 Thom  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 12:23:43pm

The "I'm the best expert I know" line really is breathtaking in its hubris.

And totally cements her credibly ... LOL.

158 Thom  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 12:24:19pm

"Credibly"? Try "credibility" next time ...

159 Terp Mole  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 12:26:24pm

Sure makes a fuss over her BJ skills.

That's a BJ degree, Bachelor of Journalism; not bachelor of arts, or bachelor of science, but bachelor of journalism. This is terribly inconvenient when filling out forms, but there it is.


Imagine what hilarity ensued at her Clinton White House internee interview.

160 chickenlips  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 12:27:16pm
my patch wouldn’t match

If the patch don't match, you must ???

161 Ckimoo  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 12:27:27pm

#114 Californican
Well, now of course, you are right. People have sold Selectrics on eBay since this story broke, but the one you linked to is a Selectric III which wasn't around in the early 70's.

So there! ;)
I am going to take a hot bath and then go eat some good ol' Carolina BBQ and try not to think about this until tomorrow!

Good chattin' w/y/all!
Kim

162 danS  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 12:41:06pm

Under Typos miss moonbat writes:

"I'm not an expert. I'm just an old lady who spent a lot of time typing with electric typewriters back then. But I KNOW I'M RIGHT." But I KNOW I'M RIGHT. Get it?
LOL.
In the whiny piece about vilifying LGF which Charles has linked to, she says: " I'm removing holoscan comments for the time being." holoscan. Get it?
LOL.
Some expert.

163 Security Mom  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 12:41:11pm

Dang. She really cheesed of the Lizardoid Master, didn't she?

I have this mental image of Mssss. O'Brian lying face down in the middle of the street, a Bush=Hitler protest sign in her lifeless hand, and skinny road bike tire tracks across her back. And Charles biking off into the distance. In a three piece suit.

164 billhedrick  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 12:45:22pm

#163, I see very much the same, but instead of a suit I see lizard skin pajamas!

165 Lady of Shalott (ylreveb)  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 12:47:26pm

It's fun watching Charles kill a gnat with a triphammer. :-))) Overkill but satisfying.

166 Mr Pol  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 12:51:29pm

#154 Joseph

One wonders what the odds for evolution, bet upon so many with their souls, is.

100% - because G-d planned it, you heathen.

167 ronnie schreiber  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 12:54:44pm
I’ve collected a few books published and printed in the 19th century. I promise you it is possible to recreate the pages of those books digitally. You could setpages in Quark that exactly match the fonts, spacing, margins,etc.; saveas PDF files; and “age” the files in PhotoShop, and I doubt any expert in the world could tell the difference by looks alone. Probably an analysis of ink and paper would reveal the difference, but that’s outside my expertise.

She gets it exactly backwards and provides evidence for Charles in spite of herself. Yes, modern software can easily duplicate old printing and typesetting. However to match the fonts and spacing exactly, one would expect that you'd have to fiddle around a bit. You might even have to design a new font to match the old one and you'd certainly have to measure the spacing so you can set the software parameters to get a close match. Modern software allows manual kerning of every space, so you could probably fine tune it very closely.

The problem is that Charles and others have proven that you can reproduce the exact letter spacing and font (based on distinguishing characters of fonts) of the documents using the default settings in an off-the-shelf copy of MS Word. No complicted font matchings, no measurements or computations, just the default setting.

168 The Monster  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 12:58:42pm

Before she shut down comments, I managed to challenge her to follow Charles' lead and actually DEMONSTRATE that it can by done by finding a typewriter, the extra type balls required, and then typing the damn memos so we can see it, and collect the growing reward for doing so.

I also got in some shots at the THREE different styles of ordinal suffixes (th):

'111 th ' - this is how you have to type it to prevent the superscription
'111th ' - then you go back and take out the space
'111th ' - if you do the space after the suffix while it's conjoined with the number string, you get superscripted.

These three styles are mixed throughout the memos, which suggests that the forger was trying to suppress the superscripting, but didn't consistently adhere to any of the three styles.

Her entire thesis is that 'the girls' who used these typewriters were experts at producing Beautiful Things on them. It defies logic that a Mistress of the Keyboard who is capable of perfectly centering proportionally-spaced headlines would display such inconsistency WRT the three styles of suffix.

169 quark2  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 1:10:15pm

@160 chickenlips

"If the patch don't match, you must ???"

You know, someone could really run with that. :)

Where's V the K.

170 David 'Parisian Insider'  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 1:14:16pm

OT: French terrorism specialist attacked and severely beaten after a radio show in Brussel by a League 1 soccer player who accused him of being 'islamophobic'.
Another manifestion of the tolerance inherent to the RoPTM.
link (French)

171 AdvancedMammoth  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 1:31:50pm

Its amazing the lengths people will go to defend something they wish was true. Some people so desperately want the information contained in those documents to be true that they are willing to ignore any amount of evidence to the contrary. This 'typography expert' is the best example of that yet.

It takes an amazing amount of self delusion to make a typography expert claim that any amount of photocopying and faxing can make the difference between monospaced and proportional type indiscernible. It's a pretty cut and dry issue. If there aren't any character columns, then the type is not monospaced. It's just that easy.

And going off on the whole typesetting tangent was just moronic. Is she actually suggesting he paid to have a handful of memos typeset? She might actually be committable.

172 The Monster  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 1:33:00pm

#169 quark2:

If the memos aren't the same
the story is lame

If you can't find the machine
the papers should be unseen

If it's not the same look,
the source could be a crook

If you can't match the type
it's just a bunch of hype!


(If the memos don't fit
It's all a bunch of Shi'ite.)

173 The Monster  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 1:33:23pm

#169 quark2:

If the memos aren't the same
the story is lame

If you can't find the machine
the papers should be unseen

If it's not the same look,
the source could be a crook

If you can't match the type
it's just a bunch of hype!


(If the memos don't fit
It's all a bunch of Shi'ite.)

174 Jheka  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 1:41:34pm

Turning off comments? Ah, the Kathryn Cramer school of blogging has found another follower.

That guy's a "junior technoweenie" and people who disagree with me are "wingnuts" who need a "responsibility transplant" and Bush is a "spoiled little princeling" but I'm being vilified!! /poor, victimized LLL.

175 SheetWise  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 1:41:53pm

Can a document aspect be distorted in a copy machine set to reproduce at 1:1? I did a test to find out on my Brother BMF 9600. I ran 5 generations of the '19 May' memo, and the results stunned me. The height of the 5th generation copy was 96.5% of the original -- but the width of the 5th generation was only 89.42% of the original! Not only were the documents shrinking slightly with each generation -- the shinkage was not proportional in respect to height and width. The results of that test are here.

176 RightIsRight  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 1:42:38pm

Nice case of moonbaticus fryicus, Charles.

177 Lysander  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 1:43:23pm

Dunno if comments or not are canned over there, I used the link Charles provided, and it "worked" (at least, it recorded a post from me:


There's a very simple way to end all of this - get an armed guard to stand next to 'em, and present the actual, real, 100% genuine documents. That is, if they exist. No, I don't believe that they exist, but if anyone wants to dispel any doubt, bring on the ink-stained originals. Or, though not as good, show that the TexANG had the specific make and model of typewriter that is alleged to have been used to make these.
Never mind the "there could have beens" or the "{insert feature here} existed in {insert date}" at the very least, there should be a typewriter (not typesetter or any other machine, but a true-blue typewriter) that has each and every one of the characteristics of this document. Once we have that make and model of the machine, then we can see if the TexANG ever had said machine from, oh, say, 1960 (or start of model production) onwards.
If the machine doesn't exist, the documents are 100% a fraud.
If the machine existed, but one was never located at any TexANG base, the documents are 100% a fraud.
Once we establish the machine existed and it was at the right place at the right time, then we can get into the details about the document, the alleged author's inability (or dislike of, either) typing, and so forth. But let’s make sure the machines exist and were there, first.
Otherwise, it's just mental masturbation.

Lysander

>:)

Lysander

178 Lysander  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 1:59:29pm

#177 Me

Uh, I didn't mena to imply that anyone doing speculation was engaged in M.M. ;) lol... no, just the ones that were saying that "It could be done on THIS!" or "It could be done on THAT!" were. Why go through all those contortions if there's not one machine that can do all, and sitting outside the CO's office? ;)

Lysander

179 Athos  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 2:03:59pm

Can someone explain why those of a certain political viewpoint / a certain ideology, when they make a statement based more on emotion and wishing that its true as opposed to fact - resort to turning off the comments when confronted with facts as opposed to a healthy debate based on facts or confront the specifics of those posts?

Jheka has a valid point that this seems to be SOP for those of the far left....just like Cramer.

They are also the ones who can, will never ever admit that they were wrong.

180 AdvancedMammoth  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 3:15:53pm

#179 Athos

Because they have an emotional attachment to their opinion. Any argument factual or otherwise that contradicts that opinion stimulates an unpleasant emotional response. They have not developed the mechanisms to deal with such trauma, and most likely need therapy.

181 E. Nough  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 3:17:33pm

Elcid writes in #38:

Well I don't know about the rest of you,but we always typeset shit around here, like daily to do's list, grocery stuff, all correspondence with the pope, you know shit like that.

That's nothing! I engrave everything on stone tablets. I'm built like a weightlifter from carrying my documents around. Sticking things to the fridge door is a pain, though.

182 bugtussle  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 3:24:38pm

It's the linotype, stupid!

The expert lady exhibits some Dan Ratherish qualities, insofar as she apparently doesn't realize that every wide-spot-in-the-road weekly newspaper/job printing shop had a leftover linotype in the 70s. They certainly did proportional typesetting, since they were used to produce newspaper copy before the move to offset printing that came in that era.

I don't suppose she is claiming that Killian had one of those bazillion-pound monsters in his office, plus of course an old half-bazillion pound letterpress, since the linotype would be useless without one.

So I guess if I'm going to bite on the linotype angle I have to believe he wrote these up and ran down to the nearest job printing shop and peeled off a few bills to have what, one copy printed up nice and neat. Exposing this sensitive information to any number of people in the process.

Sweet Jumping Jesus. They have the nerve to call anyone who doesn't agree with them stupid.

Probably my first and last post here, so a well-deserved congratulations for blowing a hole in the guy who suddenly forgot Florida had two times zones four years ago.

183 thoolou  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 4:16:39pm

Hmmm... I was able to post a comment. Not that it will do any good in the LLL mindset.

184 Pajama Blogger Reader  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 4:24:57pm

I don't understand why the lefties can't seem to do one simple thing that would bolster their case: a proof by construction, exactly duplicating the results shown here in those alternating gif images that Charles so readily made.

Lefties, simply do an identical 'proof by construction' using one of those machines that 'hypothetically could have' generated such a document, detail exactly the steps you went through to generate the test case, put your results and methodology on the table for all to see, and then you'll have a basis from which to argue.

Otherwise its all ... whats that favorite phrase... mental masturbation.

185 asedwich  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 5:43:22pm

You have to understand, these people believe in evolution as a tenet of faith, uh, I mean science. Hence, when they talk about the "degradation" of a typewritten document through photocopying, it's completely logical that the end result of the entropic process would be EXACTLY THE SAME as that of a state-of-the-art word processing program 30 years later.
Bizarre, isn't it?

186 steve miller  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 6:54:34pm

Maybe the memos were found in a pumpkin patch?

/Whittaker Chambers

187 exredtory  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 9:31:00pm

#141 Recovering Liberal


It was my impression that an expert in type would spell it "leading," not "ledding." Quite an expert she is.


Actually, one of the few things she got right: It's the old-school copy editors' term used on copy marked for typesetting, to avoid confusion with "lede" - the term used for the first paragraph of the story.

We old-school types still refer to "heds," too.

Caught a bit of Rather earlier, still stonewalling - the left sooooo wants this stink to go away.

188 Thom  Tue, Sep 14, 2004 3:08:03am

#185 asedwich

That didn't make any [expletive deleted] sense.

189 fxb  Tue, Sep 14, 2004 5:50:57am

Not much of BO'B's argument left, here, but this paragraph caught my eye:

I’ve collected a few books published and printed in the 19th century. I promise you it is possible to recreate the pages of those books digitally. You could setpages in Quark that exactly match the fonts, spacing, margins,etc.; saveas PDF files; and “age” the files in PhotoShop, and I doubt any expert in the world could tell the difference by looks alone. Probably an analysis of ink and paper would reveal the difference, but that’s outside my expertise.

I saw another nutjob offer similar evidence on a Tim Blair thread--he said the memos were easily duplicated with OpenOffice--but I'm just not sure it's the kind of evidence that's likely to help the case for authenticity. Keep trying.

190 Asedwich  Tue, Sep 14, 2004 8:48:58pm

Thom: Sorry, wasn't able to access this link until recently. Did you mean it didn't make any "farking" sense, or no "freaking" sense?
I was thinking of the bizarre way these people believing the memos as true are handling the problem of entropy. That is, they're in denial of it. Things get worse as they fall apart, not better. Which is the opposite of what the Ho this thread is about is saying. You did RTFA, right?
Sense now?

191 Thom  Wed, Sep 15, 2004 8:17:50am

#190 Asedwich

Not really... You sorta lost me after

You have to understand, these people believe in evolution as a tenet of faith, uh, I mean science.

dB^/

192 Asedwich  Wed, Sep 15, 2004 9:10:02pm

Ah. I see. My point is that evolution is a scientific theory; taken as such it is part of a scientific dialog about the nature of things. When taken as an article of faith, as with most liberals, it becomes a fact in itself, an inviolable truth, otherwise known as dogma.
This allows them to believe they can make things better by hitting them with a sledgehammer, or photocopying them multiple times, and that entropy results not only in order, but an order better than it was before.


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