“Islam is reclaiming its rightful place in Turkey,” said Kenan Alpay, an organizer at Ozgur Der, or Freedom Association, a conservative Islamist group. “We have been on the sidelines of politics and society too long. That’s ending.”

Oh, that's just lovely.

Get Turkey in the EU, stat!

Tiny minority of Muslim community that support terrorism= 99.999%

It’s hard for Muslims to stand by and see the suffering in Iraq and other places.”

However, the suffering caused by those that follow the "prophet" - well, that is just dandy.

The last time this happened the military crushed the idiots. Hopefully, they're up to the task. The real problem is that the Muslims use the weaknesses inherent in Democracies in order to undermine them. Worse than the damn Commies!

"But people go on their own because of injustices. It’s hard for Muslims to stand by and see the suffering in Iraq and other places.”

Funny thing is they don't want to help with the suffering in Iraq and other places when it's suffereing caused by islamo-nutzoids.

That is true injustice.

The forces of instability are at work in Turkey, and plan on keeping it in the Gap.

Turkey ?

As in Thanksgiving turkey ?

Roast them.
Take care of the temperature, we don't want them to be dry .

#5 Bubbaman:

Sadly, Turkey has no contemporary Ataturk with the necessary profile to effectively quash the militant Muslims these days.

"I look to the world with an open heart full of pure feelings and friendship".

Ataturk, 1933.

Islam is reclaiming its rightful place in Turkey,” said Kenan Alpay, an organizer at Ozgur Der, or Freedom Association, a conservative Islamist group. “We have been on the sidelines of politics and society too long. That’s ending.”

Typical islamofacism. The Orwellian "Freedom Association" is coming to a neighborhood near you, EUrabia.

“We don’t send anyone to fight. But people go on their own because of injustices. It’s hard for Muslims to stand by and see the suffering in Iraq and other places.”

So...when they get to Iraq, who do they attack? Who is creating the suffering in Iraq?

The same bastards who murder and oppress the Kurds? The same bastards that destroyed the Temple of Zeus at Mount Olympus and sold off the huge bronze pieces of the Collossus of Rhodes for scrap metal? The same bastards who sacked Constantinople and turned Hagia Sophia into a mosque? The same bastards who tried to invade Europe and bring it under the control of Dar-el-Islam?

This has been coming for some time now. I say bring it on. The sooner we drop the farce, the better.

Oh yeah and I don't even have to mention the Armenian genocide.

A non EU Turkey will result in a non viable turkey.

# 6 m

"But people go on their own because of injustices. It’s hard for Muslims to stand by and see the suffering in Iraq and other places.”

Funny thing is they don't want to help with the suffering in Iraq and other places when it's suffereing caused by islamo-nutzoids.

That is true injustice.

I agree, and would add this observation: by its incessant playing up the negatives from the war, the MSM, through its zeal to tarnish Bush politically, are helping foster a climate of hatred and revenge throughout the middle east.

Ironic, isn't it? Those who profess to love peace are sowing the seeds of violence.

According to a CIA website, Turkey is 99.8% muslim. Yikes!

#16 Cy_Kologis

Ironic, isn't it? Those who profess to love peace are sowing the seeds of violence.

More like diabolical.

Turkey has almost been admitted to the EU. And it probably will be admitted.

Eurabia is coming to europe. I'll bet the Brits are glad for that strip of water between The Civilized World and Eurabia.

Never mind the Chunnel, Islam will soon blow that up.

Off topic: In Britain, the light at the end of the tunnel is France.

a conservative Islamist group. “We have been on the sidelines of politics and society too long. That’s ending.”

The reason that you have been on the sidelines is because your culture fails. You were left alone in these modern days to have your pure islamic state in Afghanistan. You ruined that land and its people.
You will not be left alone again.

Where is Dracula when you need him?

If these guys really want to bring back the good old days they should remember Vlad the Impaler.

As a matter of fact it was the Turks who tought him the art of impaling. Nice people.

Europe would have to be nuts to let Turkey into their little Union.
After Turkey did not let our troops move through their territory last year the handwriting was on the wall.
Islam is going to turn Turkey into a shithole just like the rest of the Muslim Middle East. They get their true faith back again and then start pissing off investors and presto--chango, a third world, going on fourth world economy.

#4 RWC

However, the suffering caused by those that follow the "prophet" - well, that is just dandy.

Suffering? Nay! It is the will of Allah the Merciful.

:^P

Where is Ataturk, when you need him?

#22, Tim K. Rumor has it that France told Turkey that it's chances to join the EU would be 0% if it allowed the 4th ID to transit Turkey to attack Iraq from the North.

#16 thinkingmom

More like diabolical.

Boy, you got that right.

Turkey's intransigence is the main reason we're still fight Saddam's' thugs in Iraq today.

Fuck them.

Proving once again how difficult it is for young Muslim males to resist the siren call of jihad.

Hey Thom, where ya been?

Note that the Turks do not speak Arabic. The Arabic Koran is IMHO the source of the wild evil of the jihadis. The Ottoman empire was for virtually all of its life the most religiously-tolerant nation on Earth. The Jews who were driven from Spain in 1492 found a home in Constantinople.

I think we are seeing the long reach of the Saudis. Perhaps, we were better off with a Turkish empire?

The Turks, unlike the Arabs, have a culture which makes for excellent soldiers.

Success in Iraq may be even more important than we had thought.

I think it is time for the Turkish Military to have a coup d'etat.

#29 Geepers

Sick, tired, and generally burned out. :(

A lefty friend of mine today said that a terrorist is someone who flys airplanes into buildings and one shouldn't be so quick to make judgments on islamists in general, that they have a good reason to do what they do. I was speechless.

#25 Gymnast

Thanks, I may have heard that before.

I personally think they have 0% chance of getting into the EU now and they have pissed off the US to some extent and opened the door to an independant Kurdish state in their backyard. Bad trade

#5 Bubbaman

I hope the Turkish Military will quash it soon too. I have a few friends in the Turk military.

sigh.... I am glad I went to Turkey when I did. The kids are not being taught anything about Armenia, funny when I was there I knew more about it then the Turks themselves.

I've been to the Carsamba nieghborhood, vastly different then Ortakoy or the Levent District in Istanbul.

The Arabs don't like Turkey for many reasons. They can't stand that Turkey had a female PM, Tansu Ciller.

400 protestors? In a city of how many millions? In a country of how many millions?

I'd have my security guys running around taking pictures and knocking on doors asap. I'd jail and vet most of them after the bombings and damn anyone who complained. If they want to associate with terrorists, then they can explain themselves to a magistrate who will judge, better, whether they're harmless or not.

But 400 is not a lot. Am I reading this wrong?

#34 TimK:

I dunno. Given the Euro's record of doing things specifically to piss off the U.S., the Turks' game of tweaking the U.S. nose may very will increase their chances of being accepted into the EU.

The Turks have shown themselves capable of standing up to tyranny in the past. I think they will again as well. I only hope that this small bit of internal tyranny will not cause them too much pain. I suspect they will, if they are allowed to fester without early and often attempts to squash those that will use murder as their form of expression.

I agree with the earlier comment that they should be included in the EU post haste.

Thom (#32),

Geez, I could written that. Bummer.

Can I buy ya beer?

Turkey was one of the areas that was first influenced by the Apostle Paul. It has always been a place of conflicted religous beliefs .......The country is divided in half between semi-Christians and muslims.

They have huge problems with economic and political issues and, although they are a member of NATO they are not stable as a nation.

There was a link to an article about Turkey's PM 'threatening' the EU that if there wasn't an affirmative decision soon to their entry into the EU there might be 'repercussions'. I think based on this 400 and the 'threat' from the PM that EU would be wise to wait on approval. Whatever the repercussions. Better to find out what they are capable of now than after they're a voting member of the EU. N'est pas?

#39 Geepers

You too? You have my sympathy ...

I'll get the second round. :)

Precisely the sort of religious lunacy Ataturk wanted to avoid. Time for the Turkish Army to step in again?

Turkey is a battle ground in the GWOT. Prolly the most important, next to Pakistan. They are torn between modernity and fundi Islam. Ataturk tried to turn them to Europe. Who will be the Ataturk of the 21st century. Or will there even be one?

The WSJ is strongly in favor of EU membership for Turkey. The Turks I have met are even more courteous than my polyglot neighbors.

The pope once said:

May God save us from the Devil, the Comet, and the Turk.

Turkey has, and has always had, excellent relations with Israel.

I would happily see Turkey reconquer Syria. But then Israel would have a real army on its northern border. Maybe not such a great idea.

#36 foreign devil 12/13/2004 04:42PM PST

400 protestors? In a city of how many millions? In a country of how many millions?

Istanbul is about 10-15 million people, the traffic is much worse the NYC.

Turkey's Self-Emasculation

quote from above:

Under the new Islamist government, Turkey's foreign policy has been a complete disaster, unrivalled in the country's long and proud history. Few other countries in the world have ever managed to depart from their traditional foreign policies so rapidly while voluntarily missing so obvious chances for achieving great victories. Instead of participating in the liberation of Iraq, to which Turkey was invited by the USA, its closest ally, Turkey prostrated to France - to the very same country that just recently condemned Turkey for the Armenian genocide, and opposed NATO guarantees for Turkey's security.

The EU is between a rock and a hard place though.
They have opened their borders to the Umma in the past ,only to be burdened with a Arab population that will not assimilate. So now they should open borders FULLY to 70 million Turks?
If they assimilate and become true Europeons,great.
But what if it turns out to be a giant(and I mean GIANT) Trojan horse?

Thom (#42), You're on brother. :-)

Just remember: It's always darkest just before it goes pitch black.

#48 sefton

Arab population that will not assimilate. So now they should open borders FULLY to 70 million Turks

Do the Turks consider themselves Arab? I was under the impression they did not.

As an aside, what a game that is... star bellied sneetches anyone?

50% of turkeys population is under the age of 25. the kids love the net and western music, internet cafes are full there, and net access from homes is astronomicly expensive.

#30 Levi -

How ya' been?

I speak to your Ottaman reference - it was a selective and self-serving "tolerance" if that was, in fact, what it was. I rather see the Ottoman's attitudes as typical Oriental posturing tactics with the means serving their ends.

The founder of Wahhabism, Abdul al Wahhab rose under the Ottomans as a reaction against the worship of tombs of saints and of relics, against the luxury and corruption of manners, and even against the use of tobacco.

They began a struggle against the Turks about 1800, seixed Mecca and Medina, overturned the Ka'aba Stone and devastated the tomb of Mohammed.

The Viceroy of Egypt, Mehemet Ali was ordered by the Sultan to subjugate them and, to a degre, suceeded in 1818. But, as we know, they survived as a sect, rigidly faithful to the Qu'ran alone. They exercised a powerful influence on the Arabian insurrections - Arabia becooming indepedent of the Turkish Empire. After he took Mecca, the Sultan of Wahhabis assumed the titled of King in1926.

The Young Turks weren't very tolerant of the Aremenians in their genocide or of the Syrians.

The eternal jihad against the Knigts of St John of Rhodes and later of the Malta weren't exactly religiously tolerant.

I also disagree with your assessment of the Turks as good soldiers. Maybe once, when the Janisseries were the most feared fightinhg force in the Med but even they were handed their collective heads at Malta by de la Valette,

The Turk, or as Disraeli referred to them, "The Abominable Turk" can ALWAYS be bought with a little baksheesh
- a very little baksheesh at that.

The Turk, IMHO, will fight for his interests, long before he'll fight for his rights.

Other than that - shalom, brudda. AND BTW - I parahrased most most of that asssessment from Salomon Reinach's "Orpheus."

May it's time to outlaw radical Islam. We begin bombing in 5 minutes?

#48 sefton:

The Trojan Horse is already throughout the EU. All those bleeding heart liberals let it in and it's hidden minions are coming out of their shell in The Netherlands, Denmark, Spain, Italy and elsewhere. Stay tuned.

#49 Geepers

LOL. Thanks for the pep talk. ;)

#13

Was there a typo when you wrote: "This has been coming for some time now. I say bring it on. The sooner we drop the farce, the better."? Did you mean, "the sooner we drop the bomb?

As amended, I concur wholehartedly.

#52 struan al kufr

The Turk, or as Disraeli referred to them, "The Abominable Turk" can ALWAYS be bought with a little baksheesh
- a very little baksheesh at that.

So there is going to be a bidding war between us and the Saudis for who can buy the Turks? I think that it won't be enough to strive to be independent of Saudi oil, they have to have their money taken away until they prove that then can handle it responsibly. Which will happen after the blizzard in Riyadh.

Struan al kafr -- the Armenian genocide was the last gasp of the Ottoman Empire. Or am I wrong here, was it the Young Turks? In 1915, the Ottomans still ruled.

I agree the Ottomans were not tolerant by modern standards. But by the standards of the 17th, 16th, 15th, 14th century, they were far more tolerant than Europe. They, unlike the conquistadors, were perfectly happy with face obedience. One index of their tolerance is that Greece, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Romania, Serbia, and Croatia are not today Muslim countries.

“Islam is reclaiming its rightful place in Turkey,” said Kenan Alpay, an organizer at Ozgur Der, or Freedom Association, a conservative Islamist group. “We have been on the sidelines of politics and society too long. That’s ending.”

Knowing islam's past history and goals, he's correct- politics and society will end in Turkey, if the Turks are not vigilant.

aw come on guys, why are you against turkey entering the EU? i mean the first holocaust of the 20th century was perpetrated by the peaceful turks against armenina, greek, and assyrian peoples living in turkey. thankfully only a measly 1.5 million innocent men, women, and children were killed. like our good buddy hitler said: "who here remembers the slaughter of the armenians?"

" The Ottoman empire was for virtually all of its life the most religiously-tolerant nation on Earth."

this is a joke right?

#57 - Earth2 -

Historically the Turk has always been for sale to the highest bidder.

They didn't allow our Cold War listening posts on their soil without recompense both financially and political.

But people go on their own because of injustices. It's hard for Muslims to stand by and see the suffering in Iraq and other places."

I couldn't AGREE more....because anyone with a brain KNOWS that Iraq caused 9/11...

Furthermore, every correct minded patriotic AmeriKan KNOWS that LGF created Hamas.

Damn you...Damn you...you right wing, jesusland, cowboy-joooo-nazis.

;)

I posted this yesterday----

Turkish Prime Minister warns of terror wave if EU rejects membership

RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN, the Turkish Prime Minister, has told European Union leaders that they will pay a heavy price in continued and escalating violence from Islamic extremists if the EU rejects Turkey as a member and confirms itself as a Christian club.
“Accepting a country that has brought together Islam and democracy will bring about harmony between civilisations. If, on the other hand, it is not welcomed, the world will have to put up with the present situation,” he said, referring to terrorism by such groups as al-Qaeda — whose local affiliates hit Turkey last year, bombing the British consulate and three other targets in Istanbul.

“That is the very clear and present danger and it is all around us today. There is nothing we can do if the EU feels that it can live with being simply a Christian club . . . but if these countries burn their bridges with the rest of the world, history will not forgive them.”

Mr Erdogan’s powerful warning came just days before the EU summit that will decide whether to start formal accession talks with Turkey and against a furious European debate about the effects of incorporating Turkey’s 70 million, mainly Muslim, population into the Union.

He was speaking before opening Istanbul’s first modern art museum — an event he had ordered to be brought forward from early next year to help to project a modern image of his country ahead of the summit. After knocking on the EU’s doors for four decades, Turkey is painfully aware that it is viewed abroad as a poor and backward country and that, despite its secular constitution, much of the West is currently afraid of its Muslim tradition.

Mr Erdogan is a declared “conservative democrat”, but his background as an Islamic firebrand has led to so many questions that his face broke into a “not again” smile at the mere mention of the problem.

“We are Muslim, we are Turkish, we are democratic and our country is secular,” he said, emphasising every phrase. “Nothing else need be said.” Nevertheless, he believed that the EU, in trying to add safeguards and get-out clauses in the draft for the talks, was discriminating against Ankara.....

...“There are 400,000 Turks already living in France . . . what have we done to make them so afraid? We find it hard to understand what it is the French do not understand about us that makes them so wary. There is no such thing in the EU as privileged partnership. No other country has been offered this and there is no way that we will accept such an option for Turkey,” he said.

Infidels...You do it our way or die...

This story just goes to show you, never trust a Muslim.

helloworld-- it is not a joke that the ottoman empire was, for most of its existence, the most religiously tolerant empire on Earth. Here is a linksupplorting your position. Here is another supporting the opposite. link

One needs to view Ottoman tolerance toward minorities in some perspective: it was tolerant compared to the Christian world, and it was certainly more tolerant than the regime headed by the Committee of Union and Progress that replaced it in 1908. A distinction, however, should be made between the Ottoman theory of tolerance and the actual experience of Armenian peasants living in the eastern vilayets or provinces. Here the relatively defenseless Armenian may have been allowed to practice his religion, but his life and property became increasingly less secure as, in the nineteenth century, the plateau became populated by Turkish and Kurdish pastoral groups.

But by the 19th century, The Ottoman Empire had tuled Anatolia for about 500 years. So the earlier centuries were in fact quite tolerant. It is a little wierd that the U.N. is touting the Ottoman methods for the present. Can you imagine the reaction if the US. made muslims ineligible for military service and extracted an extra tax on muslim earnings?

Can you imagine the reaction if the US. made muslims ineligible for military service and extracted an extra tax on muslim earnings?

Just deport them all.

. It’s hard for Muslims to stand by and see the suffering in Iraq and other places.”

It's wasn't that hard when Saddam was in charge.

#67 KingKenrod:

It's wasn't that hard when Saddam was in charge.

Excellent point.

KingKenrod (#67)

It's wasn't that hard when Saddam was in charge.

Outstanding.

hm. Well this doesn't appear to bode well for the BTC oil pipeline from the Caspian to Turkey, especially in light of this:

Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline: not yet finished and already threatened

If Turkey is accepted into the EU, it is all over but the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Every citizen of every member state has the absolute right to reside anywhere in the EU he or she wishes. How many Turks are there? Well, they will become the majority in most if not all of the countries of Europe. That will leave the U.S. as the last bastion of western civilization in the world.

#1 Cam

#2 Thom
Get Turkey in the EU, stat!

Questions:

Did you know Turkey is a member of NATO?

Why did Turkey not let the USA start a front against Iraq at the Turkish border, and why Turkey said NO still when the USA told Turkey that all the loans would be forgiven along with other stuff? Why did the USA not find any of the main WMD in Iraq could Saddam ask Turkey, Iran, and Syria to keep these in safe keeping until they were needed?

Do you think it is good that the Saudis are our friends that sell their oil at a high price even if most of the terrorist of 911 came from Saudi Arabia?

Would you trust a Muslam not to behead you?

By the way if you don't read the news from NATO maybe you should take a look at this.

'Russia to support NATO’s Mediterranean anti-terrorist operation' [Link: www.nato.int...]

#17 Lady Redhawk
According to a CIA website, Turkey is 99.8% muslim. Yikes!

Lady Redhawk you did know that Saddam is a Sunni and before the war the Sunni's in Iraq were in power?
'Muslim 99.8% (mostly Sunni), other 0.2% (mostly Christians and Jews)'

I will be back in an hour or two

Turkey has been a friend of Israel with a military cooperation treaty for over 30 years. Turkey has been a friend of America for over 50 years. I think lgfers are correct to be wary of the Arabs and correct to worry about Turkey changing. There is no need to see enemies where they do not exist.

A democratic Islamic country is substantially unlikely to be a haven for jihadis.

And to think that I, and others got blasted for being against Turkey's being admitted into the EU. (on another blog)

Iran was at one time a trusted ally. Looked what happened (radical Islamism taking over in 1979)

I WANT to be wrong. I do want Turkey to overcome these radical elements and continue to be a democratic society. (before I'm flamed)

“Islamic resistance will win!” chanted nearly 400 protesters, including women wearing green headbands with Quranic verses — similar to those worn by suicide bombers in farewell videos.

... and graduating seniors at UC Irvine.

#74 Levi -

I can't think of a better peron to ask - have you seen any national demographics re the Jewish vote in the Presidential election.

I haven't and I wonder why.

Scratch Turkey off the list of "allies". Turkey will soon be in the House of Islam. Europe will be the house of Islam. Thank god we have an ocean buffer.

#74 levi from queens

I personally remember Turkish troops fighting with US in
Korea. Very disciplined.

Yesterday my short post regarded Erdogan's statement as
a threat to the EU to vote Turkey in or accept the inevitable war of civilizations. You are correct in your assessment
of their position regarding Israel and the US, but you need to consider that Iran was a friend of ours until the Shah was dethroned.

#77 struan as kufr

One source

A democratic Islamic country is substantially unlikely to be a haven for jihadis.

That's Bush's position, as well. But I think it's short sighted.

The corollary is: A democratic Islamic country is substantially likely to become more Islamic and less democratic over time.

And they'll pick the time, not you (the West).

No mention of Cyprus on this thread, so I thought I provide this quote.

"According to the Zurich-London Treaty, Cyprus becomes an independent republic on 16th August 1960. It is a member of the United Nations, the Council of Europe and the Commonwealth as well as the Non-Aligned Movement. According to the above Treaty, Britain retains in the island two Sovereign Bases, (158.5 sq km) at Dhekelia and Akrotiri-Episkopi.

The 1960 Constitution of the Cyprus Republic proves unworkable in many of its provisions, and this made impossible its smooth implementation. When in 1963, the President of the Republic proposed some amendments to facilitate the functioning of the state, the Turkish community responded with rebellion (Dec. 1963), the Turkish ministers withdrew from the Cabinet and the Turkish civil servants ceased attending their offices while Turkey threatened to invade Cyprus. Ever since then, the aim of the Turkish Cypriot leadership, acting on instructions from the Turkish Government, has been the partitioning of Cyprus and annexation by Turkey. In July 1974, a coup is staged in Cyprus by the Military junta, then in power in Athens, for the overthrow of President Makarios. On 20 July 1974, Turkey launched an invasion with 40,000 troops against defenseless Cyprus. Since 1974, 37% of the island is under Turkish military occupation and 200,000 Greek Cypriots, 40% of the total Greek Cypriot population, were forced to leave their homes in the occupied area and were turned into refugees. The invasion of Turkey and the occupation of 37% of the island's territory as well as the continuing violation of the fundamental human rights of the people of Cyprus have been condemned by international bodies, such as the UN General Assembly, the Non-aligned Movement, the Commonwealth and the Council of Europe. "

believe me --at a hint of any kind of real shenanigans by the islamists --the kemalists in the army wil crush them like a bubble pipe--the culture of the elites in turkey are as fearful of the caliphate cocksuckers as we are and there would be blood in the streets--now the headscarfization is another matter--lotsa religious conservatives from the country side moved into istanbul and dig being religious and modest etc--its kind of like the black dashiki thing in the sixties with religious overtones--i see it as a lifestyle thing not a political one--the army is the one true power in turkey and will chew up any anti modernist return to ottoman obscurantism like a bunch of ripe grapes--the country looks upon attark as a god--and he was a western looking secularist--he despised the clergy and so does the army--its really a europeanized islam in turkey more than an islamized europe if you catch my drift--they want the e.u. because that's where the money is--besides they look upon arabs as violent ignorant bumpkins

The average Turk believes the EU is the economic promised land. As a result opinion polls show Turks overwhelmingly in favor of joining the EU. Unfortunately, empirical evidence indicates the Turks aren't really aware that joining the EU will initially cost them plenty financially, as well as require them to voluntarily give up their sovereignty in several areas. As nationalistic as the Turks are (on an average day you won't see more national flags flying in other country) that will be a tough pill to swallow.
It may turn out to be a case of "be careful of what you ask for" when Turkey really understands they will need to incorporate most of the EU rules found in nearly 90,000 pages of documents.
For most Turks, their practice of Islam is akin to the American Christian who goes to church twice a year (Christmas and Easter).
The Turkish military won't do anything about a demonstration by just 400 people in Istanbul. They will protect the secular nature of the Turkish government, because it is Ataturk's legacy and because they are required to do so by the Turkish Constitution (which they helped author, but I digress). As the most respected institution in the Turkish government, the military will not do anything before the EU's decision on 17 Dec to appear to be the reason for a "No" from the EU. Since PM Erdogan proclaimed joining the EU as his party's (and governement's) main goal, the Turkish military has relatively quietly (but unhappily) accepted a reduction in its influence to bring the Turkish government more in line with the EU, where civilian government controls the military, instead of vice versa. After the 17th, if the decision is "No," or a heavily conditioned "Yes" that Turkey views as equivalent to a "No", expect the military to reassert itself.

BTW, ask anyone who fought alongside or against the Turks in the Korean war how good and how tough they were. Always successful in the bloodiest battles there, the Turks toughness became legendary...to include they had no Turks taken as prisoners.

as to toughness of the military see cf gallipoli/dardanelles-redosto--anzac day--this was not the army of the turks in arabia--ask the aussies/new zealanders

I spent 2001 - 2003 working for the U.S. government in Istanbul. Protests of this size were a almost a daily and certainly a weekly occurance during my stay. Sometimes the protesters were communists (yes they still have communists in Turkey) and sometimes islamists.

As stated earlier, the Turkish military will come in and crush any attempt to turn Turkey into an islamic state. The Turkish military barely tolerates the current conservative government. If not for Turkey's attempt to enter the EU, I think the military would already have thrown a coup of some sort.

The current Turkish government (AK Party) does have a religious side, but to a lot of Turks, it is also seen as a fresh start, i.e. a populist movement. The Turkish government is very ineffective and corrupt in many ways. In 2002, the Turkish populace finally had enough and voted in the AK party, which promised reform and was a relative fresh face. The leader of the AK party and current PM, Erdogan, was the mayor of Istanbul (think Guiliani). He was popular, made some reforms, but was a bit too religious for the establishment, so they banned him from government, but eventually relented, his party then won the national elections.

The AK party was full of a lot of first time MPs. The entire vote for bringing is the 4th ID was a cluster...

France tells Turkey 'admit to Armenian genocide' -

[Link: www.expatica.com...]

Bravo France.

I wonder when the US will stop supporting Turkey and its entrance to the EU, specially after the deliberate strategy of preventing US troops to be deployed in Iraq via Turkey.

John Rhys-Davies (Gimli the Dwarf) warns us that Tolkien's metaphors were meant for us today.

In his view, "Fundamental Islamism is a particularly brutish and unpleasant form of fascism." He fears that if it becomes the dominant culture in Europe, it will wipe out all that is good about Western culture. "It's easy to lose a civilization," Rhys-Davies warns. "The values of Western civilization have brought so much good to the world: the notions of equality, democracy, tolerance, abolition of slavery." Rhys-Davies sees these same themes espoused in The Lord of the Rings, observing, "[J.R.R.] Tolkien knew that civilization is worth fighting for. There are times when a generation is challenged and must fight to defend their civilization from annihilation."

"In the land of Mordor, where the shadows lie"

To those attempting to compare Turkey today with Iran of the late 70's, consider this -

Turkey today - secular 'democracy', has already had peaceful transfer of power due to elections.

Iran then - dictatorship. then a coup, installing a different brand of tyranny. now a haven for evil.

And yes, they (Turkey) played the Iraq war wrong and got burned.

This will no doubt raise many hackles but I must say it.
I lived in Turkey for many years while attached to NATO. Turks are NOT Arabs. Turkish is more of an Eastern European language. Turks are largely hardworking, educated and decent people.
They are 99% Muslim, BUT I never saw a single instance of intolerance against Christians. Every Christmas, all my Muslim friends and neighbors sent Christmas cards and one year even surprised us with a Christmas tree, although their version of decorations copied from magazine photos was somewhat creative.
While there, our housekeeper was a Jew, whose family ran from Hitler and had been living well in Turkey since. Two of her nephews had migrated to Israel but the rest of the family chose to stay in Turkey and visited often.
Yes, of course their history contains much that can be picked apart but it takes as much academic arrogance to condemn the individual Turk of today for the actions of their ancestors as it does to, for example, to sentence me for the behavior of my English ancesors' participation in the Crusades 1100 years ago. That is the assinine game the Islamists play.
Turkey is between a rock and a hard place. A primary reason for keeping them out of the EU has been "human rights" violations. This pertains to their treatment of prisoners and the "intolerant" way they have held the Islamists down. When they "lightened up" the problems started. Difficulty with the Islamists has grown since.
Turkey did intitially agree to allow the US to send troops through to Iraq but withdrew support when the EU threatened to scrap their application. They desperately need the trade agreements so could only hope the US government understood their position. The Bush admin. did, which is why there was relatively little condemnation.
Does anyone here have any idea what the Turks think about a nuclear Iran on their borders? Does anyone not understand the amount of infiltration they have been getting? Can anyone imagine what some of Irans first targets might be? How much of Turkey is within Iran's range? How much Iran resents Turkey's secular society and sucessful democracy?
There are rumblings of military action, but they know that in order to put down the Islamists will require more "human rights" trouble and the end of EU aspirations. Maybe Turkey could weather this economically if the US could promise to offset the trade problems caused, but if Bush attempted it, US "human rights activists" would hit the roof.
Instead of condemning the Turks, think of a solution for them, like maybe some grassroots US support. They were there for us during the cold war when we put our missles aimed at Russia on their soil. They helped us maintain that line of defense for a long time. My son flew US food drops from Turkey during the Gulf war.
No matter what anyone else here might think, I have lived with the Turkish military at my back, and slept well because of it.
/This is obviously a personally passionate subject
/Rant over