I am just sick to my stomach.

Sorry, but I am.

What is wrong with these people?

Why can they not see how horrible this is?

I'd like to know if "Paul Murdoch Architects of Los Angeles" are blind, ignorant, stupid, Democrats, leftists, Islamic tools or what?

what the heck were they thinking?

Could you imagine the horror if there was a cross somewhere in the design?

Monumental symbols of our suicidal self-loathing.

Oooh, that last link Charles gives goes to my site! Thank you, Charles! No need for me to say anything more -- the images on my site are all that need saying.

The aim of the one-year competition was to honor the 40 passengers and crew who died after their plane was hijacked and crashed in a field in rural Pennsylvania.

Try again, AP:

The aim of the one-year competition was to honor the 40 passengers and crew who were murdered by Jihadi terrorists after their plane was hijacked and crashed in a field in rural Pennsylvania.

It now looks as if both of the planned memorials for 9/11 (the International Freedom Center in Manhattan and the “Crescent of Embrace” in Pennsylvania) will be monumental insults:

All three if you consider the Pentagon "Euro-benches and mud puddles" Memorial to be as stupid as I do.

How does it happen that America hating leftists seem always to be in charge of memorials to people that they hate?

Why does this keep happening?

I just don't get it. I hope that the Dept. of the Interior kills this "memorial"

+Photi

God, we're going to hell in a handbasket...are there any sensible adults out there?

Has anyone heard anything about the 'movie' being aired tonight about Flight 93?

What really bothers me is the hand-wringing, boo-hoo-ing nature of the Flight 93 memorial.

This is the site of a victory, not a defeat. A costly victory, but a win just the same. Somber and joyful at the same time.

And I don't think the memorial represents that at all.

Good point Wild Justice. AP's language makes it sound like all 40 of them just happen to drop dead at some point after some nice Muslims hijacked their plane... for no particular reason.

# 3 F s

Rayra and zombie have uncovered he's part of the faculty at USC and has taken $$ from the Tides Foundation -- need we say anything else?
:-(

CHARLES -- I think zombie has links to the Natl. Park Service contact numbers & addressess -- this desperately needs a blogswarm -- and today would seem apt, eh?

Perhaps a swastika symbolizing the four flights emanating from the heart of Massachussets liberalism...heck, it could be balanced atop a pole and spin. Of course, there would be no way to get it to face the east ... or maybe there is and I haven't thought it through.

The name alone is enough to pretty much show where there mind is at.

There should have just planted evergreens that spell "Allah u Ackbar" and be done with it.

This was no innocent accident. This was some bizarre notion of "enlightenment", the same small percentage of moonbats after 9-11 who opposed any retaliation.

The NYC monument idea is the equivalent of opening a museum to Hiroshima and Nagasaki next to the Arizona Memorial, with a wing of the museum dedicated to perceived grievances of the Japanese that led to the attack, and this is the equivalent of planting Ford Island with white flowers, with a ball of red flowers in the middle, and calling it "The Rising Sun of Peace", and doing it before the war ended.

11 nsjke

Discovery Channel: 9,11 and 1am

this kind of junk will embolden the opfor and lead to the day coming where we have to give more people "the red necktie of love"...

Time to start writing to your Congressman/Senator.

This shall not be allowed to stand. I'll be damned if MY tax money will fund this abomination.

Congressional Email System

So where are the giant swastica shaped memorial buildings in Germany going up?

The flight 93 memorial should be in the shape of a raised fist directed towards Mecca...

The IFC has until 9/23 to come into compliance with Gov. Pataki's plan that has the IFC coordinate with a 9/11 family group panel.

If you want to make sure that the IFC doesn't have any involvement in the WTC rebuilding, now is the time to focus your energy on holding their collective feet to the fire.

While we're at it, contact the LMDC and demand accountability as to why they deemed it necessary to give the Drawing Center $150,000 to relocate closer to Ground Zero after they decided that they would not comply with Pataki's plan for coordinating with the 9/11 families.

Many of the people involved in the IFC are part of the LMCC (the cultural group that ran an anti-American laden 'cultural display' earlier this week). Make sure you contact Gov. Pataki to show your displeasure with the process.

Here are a couple of things to take away from the Ground Zero reconstruction:

1) Freedom Tower wont be completed until 2010 at the earliest;
2) The 9/11 Memorial and museum are located below street/grade level;
3) The IFC cultural center is an above ground facility;
4) The transportation center wont be complete until 2009;
5) There is still time to make sure that the IFC has nothing to do with the rebuilding; and
6) There is no reason to pay the Drawing Center to relocate downtown - they're currently in SoHo and can present their anti-Americanism just fine where they are.

Presented by the Leftist School of Design, Los Angelos, CA (among other institutions of higher liberal learning).

Sad, sad, sad.

Downtown Indianapolis has a pretty good memorial that is in keeping with the values and traditions that make this country great. Perhaps these "memorial commisioners should take a look at it. Also see Arlington Virginia, Gettysburg PA, Sharpsberg , ect. There are some pretty darn good ones in DC also.

Etaoin Shrdlu 's image has been removed "due to high band width useage. Can we get this fixed?
It needs to part of the overall picture. The whole thing just disgusts me, I emailed the parks yesterday with my 2 cents.

#14

CHARLES -- I think zombie has links to the Natl. Park Service contact numbers & addressess -- this desperately needs a blogswarm -- and today would seem apt, eh?

LET'S ROLL!

"We are Muslims. We love peace, but peace on our terms, peace as laid down by Islam, not the so-called peace of occupiers and dictators."

Peace on their terms, religious icons on their terms, justice on their terms.

ISLAM - PEACE AND JU$TICE.

Kind of like the CAIR commercial they're running now.

It's hardly the spirit of "Let's roll." More like, "Let's roll over..."

Listen up:
The final decision on this memorial has to be approved by The Secretary of the Interior, Gale Norton. I don't agree with some of her policies, but right now we need to set that aside and go straight to the top. Even if every intermediate decision-maker approves of the design, she can veto it. She has the final word.

Let her know that this is completely unacceptable. Gale Norton is one of the most conservative members of Bush's cabinet, so I think she will truly understand why this memorial is unacceptable.

You can send messages to her at the Department of Interior email address

gale_norton@ios.doi.gov

Or use the Web contact from on her Web page.

Phone and snail mail for her office:

Phone: (202) 208-3100

Gale Norton
Department of the Interior
1849 C St., NW
Washington, DC 20240

Do it today!

The wind chime tower will I assume look like a Mosque prayer tower. Whats next a rug passed out to each visitor to kneel on?

#21 a finger raised .. u know which one I mean would be nice.

The Crescent of Embrace from the Religion of Peace (COEROP)!

Got bulldozer?

Time to give the anti-Caterpillar protestors another beef to bitch about.

hmm...i guess i could believe that the line of maple groves just happens to follow the natural topology of the ground, but surely using "crescent" in the name is tasteless and insensitive at best, and an ugly, deliberate insult at worst.

#21 Truck Monkey

The flight 93 memorial should be in the shape of a raised fist directed towards Mecca...

Or else a heat-seeking missle.
:}

How about a swastika at the Holocuast Museum in Washington D.C.? Utterly unbelievable!

#21 Truck Monkey

The flight 93 memorial should be in the shape of a raised fist directed towards Mecca...

Add upright middle finger, then just about right.

gymnast:

You're right that there are plenty of amazing and moving memorials around the country. The problem is that architects and designers have gone po-mo and take feeling and interpretation over factual recitation of the facts.

We see that in the way that the media says today is the 9/11 anniversary but doesn't include who did it. It is infuriating and it doesn't make any sense unless the media is really against everything that this country stands for.

Per the National Geographic Channel, the last words of the Arab hijacker piloting flight 93 were "Allahu Akbar"...spoken just before he crashed the jet into the ground at 580 mph.

Perhaps this memorial is actually dedicated to him.

OT, Still looks like Wilmington +/- about 80 km with a Cat 2, and if the 12Z GFDL is to be trusted, by late Thursday into early Friday, sustained tropical storm force winds Eastern Suffolk County, and sustained tropical storm force winds with gusts to hurricane force at the Jean-Francois Qerie and DWI Killer estates Cape Cod and Islands.

This is what I posted at the National Parks Service website:

Whether it was inadvertent or purposeful, the inclusion of a red-hued crescentic shape for the Flight 93 memorial is not only incredibly inappropriate, but intolerably disrespectful of the memories of the flight 93 victims who were murdered by muslim extremists.

This would be akin to including a giant swastika at a Holocaust memorial.

I am appalled that my tax money would go to such a hurtful and offensive project. Another design must be chosen.

Heh, Joel. GMTA.

A couple of Canadian TV viewers on another leading anti-idiotarian blog said the Flight 93 doc has been pre-empted for a special about squids and octopi in the Semi-Great Gray North.

#25 Rockdad 9/11/2005 02:25PM PDT

Etaoin Shrdlu 's image has been removed "due to high band width useage. Can we get this fixed?

YES! I just fixed it. Thanks for pointing that out. I was clever enough to have downloaded the image just in case that might happen. I have now updated the link on my site to work, but here is the direct link. It goes with this caption:

"Etaoin Shrdlu" has generated an azimuthal equidistant world map centered on the location of the Flight 93 Memorial which seems to indicate that the crescent is oriented toward Mecca.

OT -

Surprise, surprise, surprise (NOT!)

Poll: Palestinians say withdrawal due to attacks

A public opinion poll taken in Gaza showed that an overwhelming majority of Palestinians believed that the armed resistance was the reason for Israel's withdrawal from the Gaza Strip.

40% believe that most of the credit belongs to Hamas, which carried out hundreds of attacks against Israeli targets.

What a shock!

/sarc

I'm not sure if this has been posted here yet, but I did post it on the other 9-11 thread: General Tommy Franks and Tom Ridge are on the fundraising committees.

E-mail them. Let them know how you feel, and that you won't give a single cent to this project that is such and insult.

If we are silent now, then we have only ourselves to blame.

Contact information is as follows:

General Tommy Franks - [Link: www.tommyfranks.com...]

Flight 93 Memorial Project's website - [Link: www.flight93memorialproject.org...]

Have you noticed that in this CNN article...no pictures are made available to show the public the 'memorial'. Only at the Post-Gazette paper...and even that wasn't the bird's eye view.

Everybody contact the parks service in charge of this.

This is the response I got when I submitted my email:

Service Unavailable
The requested service is temporarily unavailable. It is either overloaded or under maintenance. Please try later.

What a surprise.

“Inspired by the sight of the crescent.” I just came across this phrase while reading an account of the Battle of Kulikovo, which is where Russia in 1380 defeated the march of Islam.

This is from Nicholas Zernov's book The Russians and their Church, published in English in 1945:

“Since the conversion of the Tartars to Mahometanism at the beginning of the fourteenth century, their benevolent attitude to the Church had changed to a hostile one. Russia's defeat would therefore mean the masacre of the population, the profanation of the churches, the suppression of Christianity.”

“On September 8th, 1380, the two armies met at last. No battle in Russian history can be compared with that of Kulikovo Pole. Here occurred the clash between two irreconcilable powers. Four hundred thousand nomads, with their camels and horses and inspired by the sight of the crescent, faced a much smaller army of Russians, gathered under the eight-pointed Eastern Cross. Kulikovo Pole occupies a place in history similar to that of the Battle of Poitiers (732), when France saved the West from Mahometan invasion; or that of the fatal defeat of Kosovo in 1389, which marked the beginning of the five-centuries-long Moslem domination over the Christians of the Balkans. At Kulikovo Pole the advance of the Mahometans was arrested; Russia was to remain a Christian country.”

Here is an idea: let's build a battle flag right on our soil to inspire the Mahometans on the field where our martyrs died fighting Islam's foray into North America.

I just dashed off emails to just about everybody at Fox News: O'Reilly, Hume, Gibson, Smith, Hannity. here's the handy link:
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]
I'm sure someone will pick it up, if they haven't already.

Has anyone noticed that all the rerun documentaries dealing with Atta or bin Laden portray their story without historical context of the fourteen centuries of islamic jihad? I can't say I watched any of these programs from start to finish, but especially in the case of a mohammed atta story, it makes it seem like he was the beginning of the story, instead of one of the most famous of a long line of killers in a centuries-long battle. Is this part of the deprogramming of anger of Americans, downplaying the role of Islam in the attacks and making it seem like Mohammed Atta was motivated mainly by a personal hatred of western culture?

#38 Rayra

Great investigative journalism, Rayra! If the world was sane, you'd get a Pulitzer Prize for that. MSM moonbats have gotten the Pulitzer for far less investigative work than what you have just done.

Can we question their patriotism yet?

Though the crescent and star is a pre-Islamic Parthian symbol found all over their coinage. Maybe it predates Parthia.

But these days, it's like a black swastika on a white disc in a red field.

I want to see some consistency from the left. I want to see the ACLU sue to remove this religious symbol.

[Link: www.nps.gov...] is overloaded.

Crescent of Embrace

Dear Secretary Norton,

It has come to my attention that the memorial for those murdered by islamic terrorists on 9-11 is IDENTICAL to the very symbol of islam.

[Link: zombietime.com...]

Are we honoring those killed that day or their killers?

Sincerely,

#37, lawhawk. The media is not only this countries Fourth Estate-Fifth Column, but it aspires to be the First Power in co-governing this nation with the Leading Lights (dim that they may be) of the Demo-Dhimmi Party.

I don't know. y'all...

...I hear what you're saying, but I have to say most of this thread sounds a little paranoid.

It reminds me of all the fist-pounding that went on about the WWII memorial here in DC. "It's an abomination!" They yelled...Looks like 3rd Reich architecture! In the middle of the Mall! What were they thinking?!?!?! I was sympathetic to it at first...and then I saw the memorial. Wrong, wrong, wrong. It's fine...

...all of what you're saying kind of sounds like more of the same, to be honest.

I mean, for one thing, the true similarity to the Islamic crescent is created by superimposing the other image on top of the map. Without that, it just looks like a red curve...It's sort of like seeing bunnies in the clouds: The power of suggestion goes a long way.

For another, the memorial is so damn big, about the only way you're going to see it as it appears in the map is from the Space Shuttle.

I tend to agree more with #12...it's the attitude of the whole thing that's off-putting. These people did something that day: something heroic, selfless, and pro-active...that's what deserves memorialized, not how sad/proud the rest of us felt about it.

53 "I want to see some consistency from the left. I want to see the ACLU sue to remove this religious symbol."

In the words of the immortal Duke, "That'll be the day."

I expect to see Islam installed as the official religion any time now.

if you aren't sick to your stomach yet:
Blair advised to ditch Holocaust Remembrance Day b/c it alienates young Muslims.

ADVISERS appointed by Tony Blair after the London bombings are proposing to scrap the Jewish Holocaust Memorial Day because it is regarded as offensive to Muslims.
They want to replace it with a Genocide Day that would recognise the mass murder of Muslims in Palestine, Chechnya and Bosnia as well as people of other faiths.
The committees argue that the special status of Holocaust Memorial Day fuels extremists’ sense of alienation because it “excludes” Muslims.

words just fail me

Contact page for Paul Murdoch Architects.

During the broadcast of a Turner-made TV movie on the life of Moses starring David Suchet ("Hercule Poirot"), I noticed that the ancient Israelites were all praying like Muslims -- that Moses was praying on the ground on a prayer rug.

As a journalist, I asked the network to send me a review copy of the movie, and it was absolutely clear -- the director had copied a number of Islamic prayer rituals, possibly to get clearance to film in Morocco.

I then took note of a seen in which the camera faced east into the Sinai as "Moses" prayed -- to the south-south east. Not toward the Promised land, but toward Meccah.

In other words, according to Turner, Moses was a Muslim.

Accident? I don't think so...

(By the way, the Tunisian flag is a reversed Ottoman-Turkish flag.)

#59 OpininginDC:

You're right - they did critique the WW II memorial, and the Vietnam Memorial before that - and it took decades to fund and complete the Washington Memorial. These things are difficult to convey, but would you not agree that a clearly Islamic symbol is present in the architecture and that it was purposefully included for some reason that escapes me.

Try to imagine in '45 coming up with a plan to incorporate the rising sun into a memorial design to sit over the sunken, wrecked tomb of the USS Arizona...can't you say? The greatest generation weren't called the greatest for no reason. We should fight the war first and worry about memorials later. Impossible now I guess with our "therapy" culture. sad

why not cut to the chase and call this the Martyrs of Allah against the Great Satan Memorial.

Re 59:

Isn't it called Crescent Embrace?
This is not even close to "bunnies in the clouds." The fact that seen most clearly from the air is part of why it's so creepy, so subversive.

#59:

FOAD.

Imagine the outcry from the left if the winning design had incorporated Christian or Jewish iconography in the design and was titled "Cross of Remembrance" or "Star of Solace".

Just imagine.

69 EIDE Interface- OK, #59 is at best gullible and stupid, and possibly a troll, claiming we are paranoid seeing a crescent in a design titled "Crescent of Embrace" but FOAD is a little strong.

Even ESAD would be a little over the top, IMHO.

I think STFU and STFD are more appropriate.

I would hope, if it comes down to it, the good people of Pennsylvania will physically intrude upon any effort to implement that abomination.

Here's an interesting take on the winning design from a blogger with a backround in architecture.

[Link: www.pardonmyenglish.com...]

Rayra

Great #38

One little connection can be considered happenstance. However, given those involved, and the amount of connections via symbolism towards the Islamic Crescent - are we really looking at happenstance and coincidence or at a deliberate message.

I am beginning to believe the latter - but not in the knowingly malicious manner - but in the typical political correct, represent all sides, let's not piss anyone off multiculturalism that seems to separate the left from rules and facts of reality.

We'll see the usual denials, the usual dodges, the usual accusation that we are seeing non-existent conspiracies everywhere - but the fact remains - the symbolism of this is particularly disturbing.

If there is something that architects understand - it's symbolism.

#71 {Ed}

I think STFU and STFD are more appropriate.

From the nuances of hurricanes to the nuances of language. Ed, you are a treasure.

Lets just say that this is some complete misunderstanding and this is all one huge coincidence.

Does not matter, the memorial needs to be changed drastically, because those who hate us are good at propaganda and word will spread through the arab word that:

The one plane that failed to reach its target has been memorialized with the sign of Islam at the very spot that they flew the plane into the ground scorching the mark of islam into America's heart, FOREVER.

That's just me, just think what binladens group will use the memorial for...

THEY do THAT..and WE answer with This Abomination. And we are winning? this War. A huh. If you say so.

Is there something OFF? with this or not?

I for one won't raise any objection if this "memorial" gets vandalized.

What a disgrace.

The guy at Sacred Cow Burgers sums it up very nicely with this graphic

#59, opininginDC. You sound like Rodney King trying to be Rodney Kings Wife just after he kicked the shit out of her. This ain't the Rodney King show and your taking a stand is like watching somebody get their legs cut off.

#55 LC LaWedgie
[Link: www.nps.gov...] is overloaded.

Well, you'll just have to use these for now:

paul@paulmurdocharchitects.com

gale_norton@ios.doi.gov

trolls like #59 are just plain evil motherfuckers.

#59 opininginDC

For another, the memorial is so damn big, about the only way you're going to see it as it appears in the map is from the Space Shuttle.

You don't fly much, do you?

Are we some kind of IDIOTS here or am I missing something? You attack the USA and the ATTACKERS get to "mark the territory" with their Moniker. Put their stamp on the place of their attack...A..hah.

Fox news mentioned this debacle last night already with a picture of the crescent.

I want to know who is on this "Commission" who decidec on this design.

We need a list with names, phone numbers, email address, fax, and postal address.

I want to see what other designs were submitted.

I want to know WHY a fricken islamic crescent was picked.

These people owe the families of the victims and the American public some answers!

Term: Heading for "National Suicide" comes to MY mind.

I give up..or not. Just discusted.

Email sent to my congressman, like this will do any good--Hinchey? Moonbattus extremicus

Dear Mr. Hinchey

Regarding the Flight 93 memorial, I fail to see how a memorial of a RED CRESCENT OF EMBRACE honors Americans when it was Muslim hijackers who caused their death and the Red Crescent is the symbol of Islam.

This is an outrage and I am deeply, deeply offended.

I hope you will express my outrage to those responsible for this completely insensitive choice.

Sincerely

I dub thee...

The Crescent of Disgrace

Just for your information: For Islam..putting up Mosques and Symbols of their Religion in the "Public Square" is MARKING THEIR TERRITORY.

Better than persuading Gale Norton, Sect'y of Interior to withhold approval - perhaps the First Ladies, Barbara Bush and Laura Bush could be politely convinced to come forward and express their disapproval of the design. Surely that would stop it in its tracks.

#52 zombie

Great investigative journalism, Rayra! If the world was sane, you'd get a Pulitzer Prize for that. MSM moonbats have gotten the Pulitzer for far less investigative work than what you have just done.

Some of the last Pulitzers for ""news"" photography went for posed photos of jihadis pretending they were in combat wearing MC Hammer pants.

As it eventually turned out, you CAN "touch this."

#29 Zombie

Thanks for your work on this. Charles, LGF will not allow this to go forward. Your lizards did it before. They will do it
again.

Just sent email to Ms. Norton:

The 'Crescent of Embrace?. The design is totally unacceptable. Has the National Park Service gone mad? A red crescent? It will be vandalized and the guilty will be prosecuted as a hate crime against Islam. Ms. Norton, take action.

There needs to be a firestorm of protest.

Oh, the hell with it. Let's all just buy Korans and fit our women for burqaas.

This country is in deep shit. Half of America thinks we got what we had coming on 9/11, and these people just happen to be in charge of telling the story of what happened through these "memorials"

The propagandists for the jihadis will seize upon this, and the IFC if it ever gets built (God forbid).

One thing people haven't noticed is the colors. If you look at Michelle Malkin's site you'll notice that the dominant colors are red, blue, green, and gold. I don't have a good source handy, but I believe that these are the colors used by Islam.

[Link: michellemalkin.com...]

I just read all of this thread and I think Mike McDaniels, #12, shows the best understanding of what happened in the sky over Pennsylvania. It was a victory, the first one in the WOT, and the memorial should treat it as such:

Sober and joyful at the same time.

Murdoch is the architect but the crescent was likely designed by the landscape architect, Nelson Byrd Woltz.

#29 Gail Nortons website---when I emailed a message regarding the Penna atrocity I got this message in return:
Mail for webteam@ios.doi.gov rejected for policy reasons.

Over that the Huffington Post the moonbats see nothng wrong with the crescent. Here's a sample of the comments:

Oh, come on. The crescent shape is present in nature (the crescent moon), in design, even in food (the crescent roll). How absurd to object to this simple and tasteful rememberance!

The objection stems from hate, ignorance, and bigotry. Many Muslims are mourning too. We need more love, understanding, and empathy in our world. Peace.

Another:

The Capitol dome and Washington Monument, when viewed together, are reminiscent of a mosque. The Capitol itself is fronted by a crescent-shaped reflecting pool. We'd better hire Halliburton to redesign our nation's capital.

Another:

Are crescent rolls going to be attacked next as anti-American? Is the Pillsbury doughboy going to Gitmo for terrorist activity?

link if you need it.

Me again - found this website - the Natl Park Service has to approve the design - so email them with your comments ~

[Link: www.nps.gov...]

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
---Edmund Burke

To the good men and women of flight 93, thank you.

A Tribute to Flight 93

And now we will not fail you.

Just sent to General Franks

I understand that you you are on the fund raising committee for the “Crescent of Embrace” memorial for Flight 93.
It would be hard to think of a bigger insult to the crew and passengers of Flight 93 than this red crescent pointing toward Mecca. This was a victory, a costly one, but still a victory. The crew and passengers prevented their plane from being used to attack another building by the Muslim terrorists that had taken control.

Please General, stop this “Crescent of Embrace” and find something more fitting for these brave Americans.

#103

No kidding.

The enemy of their enemy is their friend.

Those treasonous scumbuckets would be dancing in the streets if the islamo-facists were to carry out another attack here. The possiblities for Bush-bashing would be endless.

Thanks, guys; you're giving the whole world a good laugh. And now Charles's name will be linked with Michelle Malkin.

If there ever was a need and a mission for a Sledge Hammer Brigade - this is it.

#108 Bob Munck

And now Charles's name will be linked with Michelle Malkin.

I wouldn't mind having my name linked with hers, but she is already married.

#108 Bob Munck

And now Charles's name will be linked with Michelle Malkin.

And you're too stupid to know that it's a good thing.

Hey Monkey Boy:

FOAD, you BDS-addled POS.

This country would be better off without people like you.

#103 Van

Knee-jerk moonbats are consistent. If LGF or other sensible blogs oppose the design they are 'commanded'
to ridicule them. Doublethink, remember?

#108

GAZE

multiculturalists love the insult

#108 Bob Munck
Thanks, guys; you're giving the whole world a good laugh.

You're laughing now, but we'll be laughing when the design gets changed, which it will.

Laugh all you want. I just want to be there and take your picture at the moment you read that the memorial will be changed.

And now Charles's name will be linked with Michelle Malkin.

You just wish that you could link up with Michelle Malkin. Jealous.

#108, Bob Munk. You still hanging around here? Most of the shitbirds have already migrated South.

82 zombie -
Thanks. On the way.

Call the Superintendent of the Flight 93 National Memorial at (814) 443-4557. Or fax (814) 443-2180.

I'll be sending a nicely worded fax.

I just tried to leave Mr. Reingold (sp?) a message but his voice mail was full. I wish I could hear the messages. Oh boy.

#108 Munch

Thanks, guys; you're giving the whole world a good laugh. And now Charles's name will be linked with Michelle Malkin.

Oh, tell me it ain't SOOO! (Throwing hands up, weeping in despair.) Before you know it, Charles will be linked to Ann Coulter, too. Oh, I just don't think I can bear the shame of Charles being linked to intelligent and attractive females.

/Yeah, whatever.

#76

I have to agree with you. Thanks for making a salient point.

For all those who decide on the basis of one little post that I'm some source of evil, that's the kind of paranoid BS that won't get you much past the fence post if you really care about this country.

#76, you're dead on, and I agree...the design should change...and what's more, I still stand by agreeing with post #12...memorializing our own emotions, like they mean anything at all, rather than the actions of the heroes on that flight, is the real abomination.

Al Queda will see this memorial as a big waving white flag. No doubt about that.

#124 Iron Fist

The world will now end. I agree with you 100%.

DAMN, Fist! (Running out door, looking up in sky for giant asteroid or maybe sun explosion.)

From the CNN article:

"The winning design was warmly received by more than 50 friends and relatives of the flight victims. They cheered and gave a standing ovation to the design, which was chosen from five finalists.

"It was very important for me for the area to retain its simplicity," said Christine Fraser, 53, of Elizabeth, N.J., whose roommate, Colleen L. Fraser, 51, died in the crash."

Somehow, I can't see the families of the heroes on Flilght 93 sitting 'round the hearth, fire in the fireplace, hot cup of cocoa, and saying "Gee, pa...it sure would warm my heart if the memorial was an Islamic symbol."

Maybe I'm wrong. It's happened once before.

-- JRB

#108 TrollassMunck

FLUSH

FOAD

UPDATE at 9/11/05 3:45:40 pm:

For those who are trying to argue that this design is a pure coincidence, please note the following from the Pennsylvania Post-Gazette,

Its the Pittsburgh Post Gazette

#122 OpininginDC

For all those who decide on the basis of one little post ...

That's why Charles has an archive. We can see all of your stupid posts. Like this one. Or this one. Or this one. Or this doozy. You've spewed enough here.

#123 Iron Fist
Let me fix this for you:

Butt Munch thinks that there isn't much worse than being linked to a beautiful intelligent Asian woman.

Much better.

So Butt Munch, you like your women weak and submissive huh?

Here is a link describing the memorial design. It does not name the jurors, but mentions that at least some of the grieving relatives of the victims were very happy with it.
i still think "crescent" is insensitive as part of the name. I don't see how any juror could have missed that.

Cable saw.

Girdling.

'Nuff said.

oops, sorry jd--same link that you just posted!
i owe you a coke.
;-)

My proposed memorial design.

I find that memorial not only tasteless but lacking in perspective. If it were me or one of my relatives I'd hope they'd design something along traditional lines. Like this:
[Link: www.freefoto.com...]
"The shot heard 'round the World"
or this:
[Link: www.freefoto.com...]
The minutemen

#103 Van Impe

Ever since the 60's, this sort of sneering and turning issues into snide jokes has been one of the biggest weapons of the Left. "OH, YEAH! NOW YOU'RE GONNA WANNA BAN ALL CRESCENTS! LIKE CRESCENT ROLLS, AND CRESCENT MOONS!" Blah, blah, you know the drill---trying to make it out that the opposition is being unreasonable, by exaggerating their objections. This really has to be fought.

(One can imagine, of course, the rage that would ensue if we tried turning the tables on them! "WELL, DUUUH! LIKE YOU'RE SO BOTHERED BY THE CROSS! LIKE, THE CROSS IS A UNIVERSAL SYMBOL! YA GONNA WANNA BAN ALL "CROSS-ROADS" AND HOT-CROSS BUNS NOW, HUH, HUH, HUH?")

And, speaking of Ariana Huffle-puff, and her idiot blog. . .

#121 SwampWoman

LOL, I love it! Bob Munck's probably just jealous, because he himself can't get a date with Huffle-Puff!

Seriously, Bob-O has nothing to say, and should be relegated to GAZE status.

The crescent should be referred to as ‘the circle or arc,’ or other words that are not tied to specific religious iconography.”

Well yeah, we could do that, but seeing how it's not an "arc" or a "circle" I guess we won't.

Hey, here's a plan, don't create a "Crescent of Embrace" and no one will call it a "crescent".

That, or maybe we'll pay Paul Murdoch Architects with toilet paper and call it "money".

#127 Reno316

Somehow, I can't see the families of the heroes on Flilght 93 sitting 'round the hearth, fire in the fireplace, hot cup of cocoa, and saying "Gee, pa...it sure would warm my heart if the memorial was an Islamic symbol."

If they truly said anything similar to that, they're in need of more help than what Lassie could fetch.

*bark bark bark* "What's that Lassie? Tar and feathers? A NOOSE?"

These monuments should create anger against modern forces of evil: Islam and Liberalism. I would say they do a great job. Someone they get there with just one design for both.

#130

Oh, I'm so shocked...there's an archive? Gee...maybe I should cower in terror at your sheer genius of exposing me...How did you ever get so big and powerful? It's just unbelievable...wowww.

Look, I'm really not upset that I'm not falling off the right wing like you are. What's more, it amuses me that as soon as someone suggests anything that's not so far to the right that it generates its own gravitational field, they're branded as a loon. Hell, being devil's advocate around here isn't only good for the likes of you, it's damned amusing for me.

So, I'll join with many of your brethren here, and continue to "spew" At least I have ideas, even if they do put your panties in a wad. Better than some, I'd say...Unless you think posts with single words like "Fatso," "Mutherfucker," etc. don't count as spewing...I think you can look those up in the archive if you want, since you're so clever.

Oh, by the way...LGF won my opinion on this one...and I just e-mailed my representatives to say so...or does that part of this site not matter to you?

#139 Rayra
Pssst!GMTA!

121 SwampWoman

I just don't think I can bear the shame of Charles being linked to intelligent and attractive females.

He's got enough posting here...

#139, Rayra. Like I said, the guys idea of taking a stand is to cut his own legs off. You can find similar examples of the type on the faculties and administrations of most college campus's. They get away with their bullshit because they have a captive audience of kids who have other things on their minds.

#139 Rayra

vapid amoral nihilistic POS.

I nominate that for a revolving title.

#143 OpinioninDC

What exactly is your problem? We didn't fall all over ourselves trying to be the first to thank you for your insights and vaulted thinking?

I'm glad you came to the conclusion this planned memorial is a really bad idea, and I hope that you see it does send the wrong message at the wrong time.

The fact that LGF regulars question your posts - content and "logic" - is what this site is about. If you want your ego massaged, there try the koolaid kids at kos, or the dummitudes at DU.

#143 OpininginDc

At least I have ideas, even if they do put your panties in a wad.

Really? What kind of ideas?

#139 Rayra

Go fuck yourself, you pathetic equivocating dissembling Tool.

NICE! Hey, Rayra, can you rewrite my resume? I'm not sure I have enough action words in it. (I just KNOW I can fit the quoted sentence in that resume someplace.)

#143 OpininginDC

Oh, by the way...LGF won my opinion on this one...and I just e-mailed my representatives to say so...

Even nodroG does the right thing once in awhile.

or does that part of this site not matter to you?

You think doing one good thing redeems all the other stupid things you have done?

Moron.

OpininginDC

I only read your last post. It will be the last time I read your comments. You are an angry person and you need some fresh air. Your opinion probably sucks anyway. FO.

#141 Swamp Woman

*bark bark bark* "What's that Lassie? Tar and feathers? A NOOSE?"

You talk like that, and I just melt.

*sigh...*

#150 Swampy

Now that would be a resume to be proud of! It would certainly get a lot of attention, but I'm not sure it would all be good attention.

:-)

#156 Iron Fist

I've heard of the Iron Chef making omlettes, but this appears to be a different recipe.

Do you add garlic salt before or afterwards?

#139

Sigh...Thanks for oversimplifying things to suit your purposes, and for recasting things I said to dress me in your little red-deviled costume.

In the meantime I'm still here learning. If I'm too "lefty" for you, even though I've stated on LGF that I support the War, the President, and the relief effort in NO, why not try to change my opinion rather than just blast away? You don't do much to win me to your side with that post.

Look what lawhawk did with one post that you and reaganite couldn't do with 100 like the two you sent.

So, you go ahead and choose only the parts of what I say that you don't like and blow them completely out of proportion so you can grind your axe with glee. I'll keep listening to the likes of lawhawk.

Can we please get back on topic now? My apologies to everyone for taking up bandwidth dealing with this petty and personal BS.

Could someone please explain this I am not sure I understand? I am Canadian, and I would expect this sort of nonsense here in The Peoples Republic of Canada but I would never have imagined it in America. Is it possible that there are not enough patriotic Americans who know exactly what is happening at this memorial? Who has the power to change this and why were leftists allowed to hijack the current memorial?

Help.

158 OpinioninDC

Can we please get back on topic now? My apologies to everyone for taking up bandwidth dealing with this petty and personal BS.

Much better. I'll take you off my 'GAZE' list now.

You are correct that LGF is about debating with honest opponents. But folks that come across too strong, or moonbatty do get taken to task.

I have an easy solution: Turn the crescent into a bow. The bowstring would be a narrow black tarmac path (or a dirt path), and it wouldn't be straight, it would be bent as if the string was being pulled back. And make a long line of flowers to form an arrow that is nocked in the bow. Make a big arrowhead out of some of that WTC wreckage, and engrave "Let's Roll" on it.

And leave it pointed at Mecca. In fact, have a plaque pointing this out.

Arrr, if only America had a National Minister of Symbolism for me to be.

#158 OpininginDC

Look what lawhawk did with one post that you and reaganite couldn't do with 100 like the two you sent.

I'm sorry, typical L³, when we quote your words you throw a fit. Wht's wrong, can't stand by your own words?

Back to the topic -- perhaps they can put in Arabic on the memorial "Please don't hurt us again -- we surrender."

#143 OpininginDC

We are at war with people that want to kill you, your family, your dog, your cat, your goldfish, and destroy any form of life here as we know it. But you would rather just make comments to get everybodies panties in a bunch that understand this so you can make yourself feel superior to them.

Thats something to be proud of and tell your grandkids.

oh-oh a Brandeis Connection...

MILENA MURDOCH,
Milena Murdoch, joined Paul Murdoch Architects as Vice President in 2001, after sixteen years of professional experience as a project architect, manager and designer...

Milena has been a registered architect in California since 1995. She graduated from University of California at Los Angeles in 1984, Summa Cum Laude, with a Master of Architecture and from Brandeis University in 1981, Summa Cum Laude, with a Bachelor of Fine Arts.

#159, Rayra. You have heard the expression, "too cleaver by half", well in DC they make some that are only "half cleaver enough". Whats the difference between a slow learner and a halfwit?

#148

No, I don't mind that you disagreed with me...in fact I expect it. I get in the same kind of arguments with hard-line left wingers. I just dont' see the value of calling me a nihilistic POS.

Please continue to question my posts, but if you want teach me something, don't expect me to be upset or moved by the likes of #130 & #139.

#152

I'm not angry...I just had a great day at work and get to spend all day tomorrow with my family...not to mention it's an amazing day outside.

maybe I'll just go outside and flash a peace sign to get a rise out of you! ;)

#156 Iron Fist

After Rayra gets done with it, let me deliver it. I promise to use my special form of diplomacy. I guarentee you that you will get the job.

(Or dude's brains will be on the resume. You have to break some eggs to make an omlett).

ROFL! Thanks, Fist!

/We'll have a BBQ one day for sure!

#133 Dar ul Harb

Chain saw.

Firewood.

Just a f.y.i, it the Pittsburgh Post Gazette, the web site is here...

[Link: www.post-gazette.com...]

#155 Mafia Princess

A few choice words like are kind of a requirement on a resume to get into your organization, aren't they?

#162

Point taken.

#171 OpininginDC

but if you want teach me something, don't expect me to be upset or moved by the likes of #130 & #139.

We quoted you, you moron! I'll ask you again, what's wrong, can't stand by your own words?

Charles just updated the thread to say the judges knew this would be controversial and wanted renamed to avoid problems.

I'm even more determined to email everyone involved, and contact the my useless State Senator and Representatives, as well as the RNC to say that any Republican that contributes money or support to this project will not get my vote or support going forward.

They KNEW this would be an issue and they went ahead with it anyway.

How f*cking stupid do they think we are, and for that matter are they. /end rhetorical question

OpininginDC,

So what's the possibility of you having the common courtesy to actually address the person you're responding to?

#174 Iron Fist

Woohooo!

When the winning design for the Vietnam memorial was announced there was a firestorm of criticism. Many people opposed it for various reasons but it was built and now it is considered a masterpiece.

The Vietnam memorial was built after the war had ended, but the WOT continues and here we are confronted with a design that has a symbolism that is integral to the people we are fighting. The people who designed the memorial and the jury that chose it are not stupid people and are clearly aware of the meaning of the cresent in Islam. So there had to be a reason for their decision. I think that they are (in a very muddled way) wanting to make a distinction between the terrorists and the Islamic religion. If so, it's a disastrous decision; in a memorial, especially a memorial to the war dead, symbolism is everything and the "Cresent of Embrace" needs to be rejected because it embraces the symbol of our enemies.

Thanks Zombie & Rayra. Slightly revised copies are so far still up here and here.

Like I posted on another thread. Why isn't there a sculpture of a flaming cross at a site like this to demonstrate forgiveness for past deeds?

MLK memorial

Both are equally offensive and beyond acceptance.

(and no I am not suggesting there should be)

I have read several comments suggesting that someone should vandalize this red crescent of trees. I hope these comments are not serious. This is symbolism, folks. And the people who are manipulating these symbols would love to see someone they can call a "conservative" break the law so they can call all conservatives extremists and home grown terrorists. Even if this memorial is constructed, it can be opposed and even reconstructed through legal means. Don't give the left-wing third column amunition. Don't even suggest vandalism or other kinds of lawlessness. If there is a better way to memorialize Flight 93, let us find it and see that it is done.

#186 Rayra

That's a LLLiberal / Moby Hudna if I ever saw one.

LMAO!

#160 Snowdawg

Its the same mentality that puts emergency fire fighters and EMT's through sexual harrasment and sensitivity training while people are in dire need of rescue in NO.

Liberalism kills.

#186 Rayra 9/11/2005 04:34PM PDT

Don't be a sucker. That's a LLLiberal / Moby Hudna if I ever saw one.

Rayra, thanks for the concern it is appreciated as are your insights and, in some cases, hysterically funny tirades.

I remember when LanceKates started posting and he stepped all over himself in one blunder after another and now he's a respected poster. Same for a few others. Maybe OpinioninDC is the same sort. I don't know. I'm prepared to give him/her a chance. Time will tell if it is more Gordon than Kates.

But one thing is constant, that you and reaganite, Iron Fist, and so many more are protectors and defenders, and that you have BS meters that peg off the charts for all the right reasons.

Peace brother. And thank you for your service, then and now.

By the way, how's the leg doing?

Do you have an e-mail we can finish this with so everyone doesn't have to listen to us argue? Unless everyone wants to...it's just way off-topic and I do feel bad about that.

Yes, I stand by my words...I still think SOME of you are paranoid, for instance. What's more, and as in the case of this thread, I'm stating an opinion a lot of the time, and I am big enough to change that when persuaded I'm wrong...but it's hardly impressive when someone tries to persuade by talking like a Jr. High kid in the locker room.

By the way, you quoted and editorialized, and #139 was anything but quoting with his pithy little rage-ridden "headlines." Neither are really quotes. I'm sure if I dug in the archive I could find things I could recast to make you look bad...even the most disciplined person can be drawn any way someone else wants. But I'm not really interested in making you look good/bad...I'm interested in the ideas discussed.

#188 Lawrence Schmere

Im sorry, wouldnt that be covered under freedom of speach? ;-)

In that part of PA, the Judge would find you guilty, sentence you to 6 hours of community service (wash the local fire truck) then buy you a beer at the station after your done.

#191 hous bin pharteen

Liberalism kills.

More like Liberalism allows you to be killed, guilt free!

Just because a family member thinks the design is OK doesn't give him or her a pre-emptive OK. It's been four years and it wouldn't be too difficult to turn one into a tool of the LLL. I mean look at Cindy Whatshername.

The memorial is for the heroes. Not the kin. I wouldn't want some of my kin writing my epitaph:

"Here lies MarcusAurelius. G-d loved him, but everyone else thought he was an a**hole".

(Put the design to a vote of the people with the attendant pros and cons - no contest.)

#50 mpax

I just dashed off emails to just about everybody at Fox News: O'Reilly, Hume, Gibson, Smith, Hannity. here's the handy link

I did see that Fox news mentioned it. The guy filling in for Brit Hume mentioned how that clergyman is up in arms about it.

#197 Iron Fist

Okay, if you agree with LS again then we have to prepare ourselves for the coming of the apocalyps. Surely this is a sign of the end times.

[ducks under table]

OK. On second thought, sneak into the park after night fall and rip the bark off of every one of those damn trees.

#193 OpininginDC

Neither are really quotes.

You're right, they're just direct links to your words. How silly of us.

OpininginDC:

You mention my name as someone who posited a reasonable response, but you never did address my point or comment. So, what is it - why is this an appropriate memorial when the symbology is clearly inclusive of Islamic symbols to the exclusion of all else.

The jurors recognized there could be some backlash because of the crescent. That’s why, in their recommendations, they wrote: “Consider the interpretation and impact of words within the context of this event. The crescent should be referred to as ‘the circle or arc,’ or other words that are not tied to specific religious iconography.”

Note to jurors... For example...Calling something a 'bowel movement' doesn't change the fact that it is sh_t.

Words may have power, but not enough in this instance.

Ahhh... we're probably just a bunch of Herbert's.

/Doc Sevrin

#204 Rayra

Sounds like you have the right formula for the care and feeding of the injury.

Glad you're doing okay.

Have fun... don't kill the mouse too soon. [cats do like to play with their food before they eat it ;-> ]

Send in the Beaver OPS Team...

Hey, feel free to bust out the bandwidth on the original qibla "convincer" too. I had to put up with nutter jokes from my husband and everything.

Seriously, this is not a situation where proof of bad intent is even necessary. It's unfortunate but these uncomfortable associations are there to be made.

It's unnaceptable, however, for this particular monument to have heavy islamic references or symbols, even if they aren't intentional. There can be no islamic imagery or symbolism in THIS place, because the murderers intended to claim it for Islam.

It's in very bad taste. It distracts from the heroism of the passengers and puts the focus on the murderers, and connects very ugly acts with Islam, if you want to look at it the other way around.

#181

Geepers,

Will do from now on...first blog I've ever subscribed to and still learning the courtesies.

#184

Rayra,

I couldn't agree more...the time ran out on diplomacy at least 5 years earlier...and I think we should've finished the job the first time anyway. My "beef" with the war is with that portion of the population with no stomach for conflict when conflict is necessary, not with current administration policies. In fact my only problem with the administration's approach to the war is really the same complaint: that they had to dress up the war in a way that has come back to haunt them in order to get the country to be o.k. with that which was clearly necessary.

Not only do I live in DC, so do my children. I am grateful every day I drive downtown that Bush had the balls to, in the paraphrased words of Gen. Tommy Franks at the RNC, fight them over there, not over here.

lawhawk:

I think "symbology" is the wrong word.

Symbology is the art of using symbols.

Symbolism is the use of symbols.

No?

Sheesh, late to this. Looks like y'all are handling things just fine, though.

I'll be going over to Senator Ted Stevens' Alaska offices tomorrow to let his staff know about the "Crescent of Submission." Ted and DOI (because of its substantial presence here in the Real Great White North) have a pretty good understanding with each other- Ted says "Jump" and Interior generally responds, "How high?" He's also really good on this kind of stuff.

Great job, everyone who has joined in to fight this dhimmitude monstrosity.

D. Edgren

#210 OpininginDCMoby

In fact my only problem with the administration's approach to the war is really the same complaint: that they had to dress up the war in a way that has come back to haunt them in order to get the country to be o.k. with that which was clearly necessary.

And of course you can supply the links to the "dress[ing] up" they did, right?

The aim of the one-year competition was to honor the 40 passengers and crew who died after their plane was hijacked and crashed in a field in rural Pennsylvania.

The aim should have been to honor the fighting spirit that rose to challenge the barbaric and murderous ideology of the hijackers, and the courage that no doubt saved some other target and groups of potential victims in Washington D. C. How about something that symbolizes a few brave souls rising up against pure evil?

What the hell is a "Crescent of Embrace," anyway? Who's embracing what or whom? This is just more pathetic, dipshit "thinking" we constantly see from the brain addled PC portion of our population. And, I don't think the almost exact rendition of the Muslim crescent is coincidental. Some sick, convaluted notion that embracing those who hate us will somehow bring peace and love to the world. All you need is love. All we are saying is give peace a chance.

Odds are this was designed and approved by some group of aging hippies from the sixties, or those who've foolishly bought into their stupid ideas.

#211 Rayra
I am tipping my glass to you sir! Awesome post!

#205

Lawhawk,

Sorry, I didn't mean to not respond...I was just very taken by your first point.

I'm just not sure I see the Islamic symbol in the design...not without that graphic of the superimposed Islamic Crescent, anyway...so it reminded me of what ultimately proved to be baseless criticisms of the look of the WWII memorial, which is a beautiful and moving space.

"Embrace" the Religion of Peace

Immanuel Kant was a real piss ant
Who was very rarely stable,
Heidegger, Heidegger was a boozy beggar
Who could think you under the table,
David Hume could out consume
Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel,
And Wittgenstein was a beery swine
Who was just as schloshed as Schlegel.

#213 Iron Fist

I have a counterproposal:

Ground strikes on Mecca, Medina, the airport(s) nearby, and MoonGod Temple itself. Follow up with a series of blasts at the foot of the mountain, ultimately burrowing *underneath it*. Then a series of strikes aimed at lifting the mountain up and depositing it atop the collapsed ruins of the Moon God's Temple, burying it under up to a thousand FEET of rubble.

Finish with a series ground blasts upwind of the site, aiming to contaminate it. We could, alternately, mixed spent nuclear fuel into the soil...

#211 Rayra

Ooh, Yeah, that's a Classic!

#213

Works. Either that, or airlift pieces of the suna'bitch back to Crawford, TX -- to be reassembled into a sculpture shaped like a human's posterior.

"Be our guest. Feel free to make the hajj to America to kiss our stone."

The crescent should be referred to as ‘the circle or arc,’ or other words that are not tied to specific religious iconography.”

Note that the concern was generalized to "...specific religious inconography" rather than "...the religious inconography associated with the hijackers whose actions led directly to the crash of Flight 93, 19 of whom tried to kill 20,000+ U.S. citizens and temporary residents that morning."

#211 Rayra.

Thanks.
Now I have a headache after reading that.

I think I need a beer.

#210 MobyOpininginDC

To follow up on reaganite's #215 challenge, we're exquisitely picky about the sources we accept. dKos, DemUnderground, Mad Magazine, National Enquirer, Pravda, and the NY Times all are looked at quite suspiciously. Well, maybe not Mad...

To: Flight 93 Memorial Jurors...

From: K.A. "FlyingTigress" Langley

"I fart in your general direction..."

/French knight

Some one needs to check out the resume of this architect. Has he written any commentary about symbolism? I would do this research myself but I have a mental handicap that limits my ability to concentrate on any single task for longer than

Re: extreme measures:

Salt is really, really bad for plants.

I'm just sayin.'

#230 I also read it faces Mecca.

I havent really checked that out myself.

OpininginDC (#210),

You picked a mean biker bar to have your first beer. We don't low blow. Or pull punches (often with brass knuckles). Good luck.

There are three possibilities about the motivation behind the PA Memorial. they are an honest mistake, a defiant symbolic appropriation, and willful malice. More as I tap away...

(Spoiler: I'm in the 'willful malice' camp)

#227 psginfinity
Want to bet it doesn't supply any?

#231 Rayra

/Sierra Nevada Pale Ale

Grolschof course! *clink

Is there anyone with enough knowledge of Islam to address my concern in #98? I read somewhere that red, green, blue, and gold have symbolic importance in Islam. Red is for war, green is for oasis, blue is for the heavens, and gold is for wealth. My source for this isn't known for factual reliability. Can someone help? Thanks in advance.

It's the Architectural Landscape of Peace

We could always add a suitably heroic statue of a generic American male and female, facing away from Mecca towards the center of the 'arc of the religion of peace'.

iirc, the original Vietnam Memorial had statues of American servicepersonnel added after the fact...

Hell, some 'guerilla art' by some patriot-thinking Americans sounds pretty good if this abomination goes through...

After the memorial dedication, how about having a Pig Roast?

oops... pimf

my.
biggest.
pimf.
EVER.

We could always add a suitably heroic statue of a generic American male and female, facing away from Mecca towards the center of the 'arc of the religion of peace'.

iirc, the original Vietnam Memorial had statues of American servicepersonnel added after the fact...

Hell, some 'guerilla art' by some patriotic-thinking Americans sounds pretty good if this abomination goes through...

New Orleans is often referred to as "Crescent City." That explains a lot.

There's no need to fantasize about sabotaging the memorial, or killing the trees, or whatever. It's never going to get to that point. Take all that outraged energy and spend it NOW preventing this design from being built in the first place. If it gets to the point where they actually start pouring cement and planting trees, we will have already lost the battle.

Email, call, fax, gossip. Get the word out. Politicians do respond to pressure -- especially righteous pressure.

I suspect the end result will be a face-saving compromise: The crescent will be altered to be a different shape, but the rest of the design will remain pretty much as is. Paul Murdoch will say that his decision to alter the shape was based on some dreamt-up practical reason -- soil samples this, wind direction that. We'll be happy that the crescent is gone, he'll save face by not appearing to cave in to the NeoCon Wingnut LUNAtics.

Seriously, even the slightest alteration of the curve, or the end-points, or the arc-length will remove the Islamic appearance. Most of the outrage stems from the fact that the design EXACTLY matches the dimensions of the prototypical Islamic crescent, as my gifs show.

How about a nice...

parabola?

hyperbola?

cycloid

..or how about a pathway that traces the route of Flight 93 itself?

The possibilities are endless. They don't have to jettison the whole thing -- just the Islamic crescent shape.

Is that so much to ask?

#241 hepcat

You mean a "good ole-fashioned American bar-be-que at the dedication?"

FLIGHT 93 MEMORIAL CEREMONIES

Menu:

Pork ribs
Pork chops
Pork Sausage
Pork and Beans
Pigs Knuckles

#211

Rayra,

I don't think of myself as a Hegelian, as anybody can spin around arguments just to manufacture an opposing view. But sometimes I do have an opposing view, and when I don't post to a thread it's because I agree with what's being said. I see now how that approach must make me look to everyone, and will bear that in mind.

That said, part of being critical is doubting some of what you read/see/hear, just as many people do on LGF. That I doubt LGF posts as well as doubting the NYT seems reasonable. The world is neither black nor white, and political/media discussions tend to draw things in such easy but inaccurate simplifications. A righty simplification is no better than a lefty one.

Now then...

I am NOT slapping at Western Religion. I am a Lutheran and believe what I was taught. Therefore, I AM questioning someone who uses religion to say that everyone who doesn't agree with them politically is also and must be a) bad and b) without faith. And I have to say, that's what I mean by paranoid. You look at my old post, and suggest that I hate God, when what I was responding to was a person using, and I would suggest misusing, God to claim a political victory. That misreading potentially says as much about your preconceptions as it does me or the words I choose.

#210

Reaganite,

You mean I have to go find some time the administration said the war would "only take x" amount of months? Or that the insurgency was in its "death throes"? I mean, that was pretty standard fare for a while. And to be clear, I don't resent them saying it...I resent them having to say it just because too many Americans lack stomach and when it's damaged them politically now.

#243 Bob Munck
FOAD

#235 Reaganite

Naah, can't take that bet. Those odds are waaay too short for my taste...

BTW: Asahi (clink)

This is getting interesting, y'all.
I've not been able to do as much as I'd like here, but here's my little page, again.
I've added the link to the overview that shows its relationship to Mecca quite well. Good Job!

Bob Munck (#243),

Your comment explains that you don't have a clue, that's for sure.

Well, Lizards...

Time to 'feed my depressed mood' with dinner.

G'nite.

G_d bless America this Patriot's Day, 2005.

"Heavenly Father. Watch over the souls of those who died four years ago and the families left behind, those who served our nation and gave the fullest measure of their devotion, and those who still serve."

#246 OpininginDC

You mean I have to go find some time the administration said the war would "only take x" amount of months? Or that the insurgency was in its "death throes"? I mean, that was pretty standard fare for a while. And to be clear, I don't resent them saying it...I resent them having to say it just because too many Americans lack stomach and when it's damaged them politically now.

Perhaps you don't understand what links are. They are a way of proving what you claim by using a hyperlink to show people the article you are talking about.

Hyperlink:

(hpr-lngk) Computer Science
v. hy·per·linked, hy·per·link·ing, hy·per·links
v. tr. To make a hypertext link in (an electronic document or file).

George guy #164:

Turn the crescent into a bow. The bowstring would be a narrow black tarmac path (or a dirt path), and it wouldn't be straight, it would be bent as if the string was being pulled back. And make a long line of flowers to form an arrow that is nocked in the bow. Make a big arrowhead out of some of that WTC wreckage, and engrave "Let's Roll" on it.

And leave it pointed at Mecca.

I love it.

#211 Rayra -

The ilk of the OpiMoby summed up by Big L:

Hi falutin' talk

#248 psginfinity

Naah, can't take that bet. Those odds are waaay too short for my taste...

LOL!

BTW: Asahi (clink)

Cheers!

#238 LesLein

I'm working it into my little broadside.

#249 hillbilly geek

Ya done good, my man!

BTW, I also got an error message when I submitted my comment on the National Park Service site, so I clicked Back and submitted it again. Same problem. The comment might have been submitted OK, it could just be that the confirmation page was problematic.

Anyhow, I sent essentially the same comment to the Secretary of the Interior. Thanks, zombie, for all you do.

#238 LesLein
[Link: www.crwflags.com...]

There are three possibilities about the motivation behind the PA Memorial. they are a defiant symbolic appropriation, an honest mistake, and willful malice. More as I tap away...

The easiest to dismiss is the defiant symbol. I dismiss that because
A) there's nothing to suggest an angry patriot in his past or present,
B) there is no corresponding, overtly patriotic imagery, and
C) there's no corresponding defiant rhetoric from the Memorial Commission's camp.

An honest mistake could have been made. This would have been confirmed if he'd shown that he understood his error, and offered to correct it. Instead, however, he dug in his heels. That leaves two possibilites.

One, his ego may have gotten away from him and Two, premeditated malice.

The architect's statements might lead one to believe that his ego got away from him. Note his insistence that nothing was overtly meant by that. Also, note the condescending attitude of the Warhol Museum director. Egomaniacs have a real problem with admitting fault, or error. So he(they) may be trying to brazen it out.

However, I'm in the Premeditated Malice camp.

We've already been through NY Moonbats torpedoing a NY Firefighter's statue, on the grounds it wasn't 'racially inclusive'. We're in the middle of Moonbat's attempt to hijack Ground Zero itself. Their disdain for real Americana is well documented, in their own words no less. So, the precedent is there.

Architects have no excuse when symbolism blows up in their faces. Symbols are a vital part of their palette, and they tend to immerse themselves in that symbology to help with their project. Zombie helped bring the crescent to light, Etaoin Shrdlu discovered the orientation to Mecca, and LesLein pointed out the predominance of Muslim - specific color schemes.

Then there's my personal experience. I spent just enough time as an architecture student to know there is no way in Hell that's simply a string of coincidences. His replies could easily go the other way, and that's how I take them. Given the totality of evidence, I conclude this is a conscious slap in America's face.

that article digusts me..I miss you guys, but I was displaced by Katrina..lost my house..down in naples , Fl , trying to decide what to do. can't believe this article..time to drink..again

#246 OpininginDC

"Therefore, I AM questioning someone who uses religion to say that everyone who doesn't agree with them politically is also and must be a) bad and b) without faith."

Islam is choice c) wants you dead in the most horrible way possible

Once again the double standard of the elites.

People in the South who fly the Confederate battle flag for various reasons are told that those reasons are not relevant, because 'it is a symbol of racism'. And who gets to define what it's a symbol of? Not the people who use the symbol, but those who claim to represent the victims of the racism.

So intellectual honesty would require that the claim of those who represent the victims of the 9/11 Islam(ofasc)ist terrorists, that a red crescent is symbolic of Islam(ofasc)ism. But the elites are having none of it. The Art Community's authority to do things like forcing Christians to pay taxes to support a depiction of a crucifix in urine trumps victim status.

Besides, the victims of 9/11 are mostly white Republicans, as certain race-pimping 'comedians' will tell you, so their victimhood isn't as 'authentic' as that of Black Folks (especially the ones Chimpy McBusHitlerBurtonRove is trying to kill with weather- and/or mind-control rays).

#262 greenmiller

What does not kill you makes you stronger. Stay stong. Just remember, you will have better days. There are alot of people praying for you.

thank you hous. was lucky to have family here.
lot better off than 90% of others. house and job gone hurts though. but WTF! we're alive!

zombie:

You're right that the design could be modified with little effort.

Heck, you could take the crescent and turn it into an infinity symbol - showing the American people and the American spirit will live on regardless of the acts of terrorist barbarians who seek to impose 7th Century Islam on the world.

Of course, pretty much any kind of alteration would improve matters.

Just as a matter of comparison, the original Freedom Tower design by Libeskind called for a latticework of steel tension cables above the 70th floor up to the top of the spire at 1,776 feet. The intermediate design was a torqued tower, that still maintained the height, but eliminated the lattice. The current design moves the location of the tower, turns the tower into a series of interlocking triangles that change the profile of the tower from a square at the base to an octagon at its peak, with it topping out at 1,776 feet.

Each one of those revisions was a significant improvement over the earlier designs. Part of the reason for those changes was public outcry. I expect to see the same thing happen here.

252 Rayra

I find it particularly telling that the primary war banner of the Prophet [sbuh] was an all black flag, and that the Black Flag has symbolized the coming of Death Rack and Ruin ever since.

Ironically (or not?) what it connotes for me is pesticide spray :-D

I have an idea for an even more insensitive monument . . . how about a landing strip?

zombie & lawhawk,

The only problem with accepting a design modification is that there are really two outrages here, and one of them is that the design process got hijacked by leftists & Islamist apologists. Changing the design doesn't address that.

I've emailed my Congressman asking for a new design commission, as well as the deep-sixing of the current design.

#253

Reaganite,

Oh, brother. Very well, if you insist:

The "death throes" comment:

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

Rumsfeld's "five days, five weeks, five months...no more than that" comment:

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

Cheney says, when asked about a protracted conflict, that "he doesn't think it will turn out that way."

[Link: www.mtholyoke.edu...]

Again, I don't mind what they said, I mind that they had to say it.

#246 hous bin pharteen

The discussion to which you refer was not about Islam. It was about Christianity. But thank you for stating the brutally obvious and part of why I support the war, although for my son and daughter more than myself...unlike Reganite, I won't insist on links to the obvious.

#266 greenmiller

I know it sounds like a cliche, but its also true. Had a fire in our apartment complex once, we lost a lot of stuff. But it was just stuff.

People can't be replaced.

Florida isnt a bad place to start over.
Employment is pretty good down there I hear.

Iron Fist:

Do you know Harold? Is he still living?

#271 OpininginDC
You obviously do not know where you are.
CNN, CBS, and some site called mtholyoke? Really, next you'll link to salon or Kos.

Anyway, from your first link:

The insurgency in Iraq is "in the last throes," Vice President Dick Cheney says, and he predicts that the fighting will end before the Bush administration leaves office.

From your second:

"The idea that it's going to be a long, long, long battle of some kind I think is belied by the fact of what happened in 1990," he said on an Infinity Radio call-in program.

I won't even go to your third link.

Did you actually read you links?

Pathetic.

I ate there just three months ago.

#210, #271 OpininginDC

You made the statement, and now have some links. One set doesn't seem to follow from the other. Would you please elaborate? (Something like my #261 post). Wrap it in a bow tie, and you might just win the argument...

hous
thanks, family here has been great. we'll make it. made a 'gas run' into the area a few days later to some friends; total devestation; 120 gallons of gas in back of pick-up for twelve hours was scary, but they we're grateful. economy is shot though. its not just houses wacked, so we're places of employment. they got a long road back.

#276 psginfinity

Wrap it in a bow tie, and you might just win the argument...

This clown thinks he's at IMC or something. Thinks we'll just roll over.

This is nothing more than a "clever" troll. It'll pop out the "Bush lied..." mantra any minute.

Then there's my personal experience. I spent just enough time as an architecture student to know there is no way in Hell that's simply a string of coincidences. His replies could easily go the other way, and that's how I take them. Given the totality of evidence, I conclude this is a conscious slap in America's face.

I don't think anything that is being juried, and explained in detail is "dismissing" it. I am sure the archect had very thorough reasons to design all of the imagery we see. Architects are pretty methodical as creative types go.

I am not going to be able to defend the architects imagery, the opinion is pretty solid, and a worthy debate.

This pretty uncomfortable debate, because I side with never mimiting free speech.. I just don't think it is what the fore fathers wanted.

Someone here made a comparasion of an Islamic crescent to a swastika. Another talking point was made about swastikas adorning a holocaust memorial.

Aside from generally being taken back, I remind you that Nazi symbols and imagery are illegal in Europe and not in America.

If the designer has done something in poor taste that's one thing...The only aspect of this debate I can take part in is defending his right to do so.

Many of the family members of the fallen seem to be okay with the piece, shouldn't their opinion matter?

One last query. If the artist decided to use the memorial site to design ant Islamic imagery, or something that offends Islam in order to dignify the dead passengers would you protest the too?

In response to #72, I am one of the good people of Pennsylvania, and I swear that I will do whatever I can to physically intrude if this abomination ever sees the light of day.

It really is adding insult to injury.

--Bill

#72 Beldar 9/11/2005 02:54PM PDT
I would hope, if it comes down to it, the good people of Pennsylvania will physically intrude upon any effort to implement that abomination.

#279 Psyduck

Actually, I might object to anti-Islamic imagery. In my mind , the dignity of the passengers need not rest on giving a religion a Bronx Cheer. Besides, there's time for that later. Parenthetically, that's why we went to Iraq. Iraq will have a TON to do with whether this war is cotained at the terrorist level, or has to escalate...

#278 Reaganite

Sorry for the out-of-order post, but I was choing back laughter.

I'm in. He's gone BushLied by post #350...

BTW, Did I make any sense w/ #261?

#279

Many of the family members of the fallen seem to be okay with the piece, shouldn't their opinion matter?

No its a national not a personal monument.

If the artist decided to use the memorial site to design ant Islamic imagery, or something that offends Islam

Being a kuffar offends Islam. We'd all have to convert or die to not offend them.

#29 zombie

Listen up:
The final decision on this memorial has to be approved by The Secretary of the Interior, Gale Norton.

From Secretary of Interior Gale A. Norton bio:

Gale Norton, a lifelong conservationist, public servant and advocate for bringing common sense solutions to environmental policy, was sworn in as the 48th Secretary of the U.S. Department of the Interior in January 2001. The first woman to head the 153-year-old department, Norton has made what she calls the Four C's the cornerstone of her tenure: Consultation, Communication, and Cooperation, all in the service of Conservation.

I surely hope she'll be satisfied with just those four.
/just saying

Has anyone checked out Ace lately; he's updated his Flight 93 Memorial information to include this bit:

The crescent is designed to be perfectly in line with Mecca - to wit - According to the Qibla finder, which goes according to the shortest route (in this case, over the North Pole), the midpoint of the "Cresent of Embrace" points directly towards Mecca, if you imagine an arrow nocked in the "bow" of the crescent.

Ace has maps and everything. This seems to be a pretty concerted effort to link Islam, the crescent, and the Flight 93 event. Does it put a positive spin on the linkage or not. But it does point to willfulness over other possibilities.

Oh, come on. The crescent shape is present in nature (the crescent moon), in design, even in food (the crescent roll). How absurd to object to this simple and tasteful rememberance! -- Comment at Huffington Post quoted by #103

Another one of my sources says that the crescent roll is related to Islam. After the Turks' seige of Vienna was lifted a local baker supposedly made a crescent roll to celebrate. (It's also claimed that the Turks left bags of coffee behind, starting another tradition.)

How 'bout they just plant grass, keep it mowed, and keep people off of it.

Samson and Delilah

Rev Gary... (cover: Grateful Dead)

If I had my way
If I had my way
If I had my way
I would tear this whole building down