LGF

 RetweetThe Truth About Eurabian Reaction to 9/11

Fri, Dec 2, 2005 at 7:44:14 pm PST

Four years after the September 11 attacks, we’re just beginning to learn about the appalling reaction to these atrocities in Muslim communities in Europe: In Germany, Muslims grow apart. (Hat tip: Still Rolling.)

There is a new wall rising in Berlin. Looking over that wall, one sees the parallel world of the Islamic suburbs. It’s a world in which women, unlike some Muslim women in Europe who have risen to expansive lives, are still subject to arranged marriages and the control of their families.

To cross this wall you have to go to the city’s central and northern districts, to Kreuzberg, Neukölln and Wedding, and you will find yourself in a world unknown to most Berliners. Until recently, most held to the illusion that living together with some 300,000 Muslim immigrants and children of immigrants was basically working.

Take Neukölln. The district is proud of the fact that it houses citizens of 165 nations. Some 40 percent of these, by far the largest group, are Turks and Kurds; the second-largest group consists of Arabs.

Racially motivated attacks occur regularly in Brandenburg, the former East German state that surrounds Berlin, where foreigners are few, accounting for only about 2 percent of the population. But such attacks hardly ever happen in Neukölln. Stefanie Vogelsang, a councilwoman from Neukölln, says that residents talk about “our Turks” in an unmistakably friendly way, although they are less friendly when it comes to Arabs, who arrived after the Turks, often illegally.

But tolerance of Muslim immigrants began to change in the aftermath of Sept. 11, 2001. Parallel to the declarations of “unconditional solidarity” with Americans by the German majority, rallies of another sort were taking place in Neukölln and Kreuzberg.

Bottle rockets were set off from building courtyards, a poor man’s fireworks: two rockets here, three rockets there. Altogether, hundreds of rockets were shooting skyward in celebration, just as most Berliners were searching for words to express their horror.

For many German residents in Neukölln and Kreuzberg, Vogelsang recalls, that was the first time they stopped to wonder who their neighbors really were.

And US mainstream media could not have cared less.

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259 comments

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1 JammieWearingFool  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 5:45:19pm

Were they shooting those bottle rockets at planes?

2 mitthrawnurdo  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 5:46:14pm

*sighs*...

Man's barbarity towards man shouldn't surprise me, but it always does.

3 Still Rolling  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 5:47:02pm

Germans seem to be starting to get a clue about the cancer in their midst.

4 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 5:47:39pm

Hell, conside that, within a week of 9/11, the MSM were reporting daily "attacks" on Muslims and Arabs in general. Most of the reports were bogus, but CAIR put'em forward and the MSM gobbled it up in the race to embrace a new victim class.

5 JammieWearingFool  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 5:49:40pm

Alot of the same celebrating was going on in Paterson, NJ, among other [bigoted word] enclaves.

6 Spiny Norman  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 5:51:44pm

Now just wait a darned minute! They told us none of this sort of thing ever happened. Anywhere. Did the Lamestream Media lie to us?

Well knock me over with a feather.

7 Still Rolling  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 5:51:56pm

Thanks for the "hat tip", Charles, it is a pleasure to be part of this incredible online community.

8 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 5:54:30pm

#2 mitthrawnurdo

Correction:

Muslim's barbarity towards man.

9 Iron Fist[deleted]  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 5:54:53pm
10 Stuck in california  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 5:59:06pm

I smell roasting Muslim over an open fire...

11 Crotalus Atrox  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 5:59:33pm

I wonder if they were still celebrating when we blew huge chunks of Afghanistan off the map. And they must have loved "shock and awe" in Iraq. Piss us off at your own risk.

12 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 5:59:58pm

OT

GOD BLESS JOHN BOLTON

U.S. stands alone in U.N. budget demand

UNITED NATIONS -- The United States stood alone Friday in calling for an interim U.N. budget, at odds with Europe and the entire developing world, and Secretary-General Kofi Annan launched urgent talks to try to bridge the divide.

The fight over the U.N. budget, which runs out on Dec. 31, has become entwined with battle over implementing the broad reforms that world leaders agreed to at a U.N. summit in September.

U.S. Ambassador John Bolton wants reform to drive the budget process - "not the other way around" - and has called for the United Nations to approve a budget for three or four months rather than the usual two-year budget so the 191 U.N. member states would have time to consider management reforms expected early in the year.

"Our priority is we do not want to miss the opportunity for reform. We do not want to adopt a two-year budget that makes it, as a practical matter, impossible to implement reforms for another two years," Bolton said.

13 bonz  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:00:33pm
Kreuzberg, Neukölln and Wedding,

So much for gentrification. Those districts were the communist working class/slums 70 years ago.

14 mich-again  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:01:50pm

If the Muslim immigrants living in these German enclaves ever get the notion to go out night after night and torch thousands of fine German automobiles, I think they will see a slightly different response than what we saw from Chirac and his band of surrender monkeys.

But what do I know about Germany, other than I like their style of potato salad.

15 Stuck in california  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:02:05pm

#12

Bolton is a prick...

Thank God!

16 Still Rolling  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:02:08pm

#9 Iron Fist
Thanks for the welcome. I can't even begin to explain how much I have learned from lurking on this site. It took quite a while to finally get registered (I am 12 time zones away, in Jakarta, Indonesia) so I am on this site at all sorts of weird times!

17 Just Another Four-Letter Word  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:02:11pm
And US mainstream media could not have cared less.

...and they still don't. Look at all the noise they are making about the US "buying" space in Iraqi papers so they can at least tell the Iraqi people what good things are being done. This wouldn't be possible in the US...

Gee, this is nothing different than the "propaganda" we beamed at the Soviet Bloc from Radio Free Europe. Apparently the Lamestream Media can't see the similarities. BDS at its best!

JAFLW

18 prospero  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:02:20pm

All together, now:

"Deutschland, Deutschland,
Unter Allah .."

19 Indefatigable  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:02:23pm

I'm shocked, SHOCKED I tells ya!

Nah... I can't even fake being shocked.

You know, Charles, I always have this conflicting duality about info like this. Part of me says, "Hey, we need to fight against this ideology of hate to preserve Western civilization." But then the othe rpart of me says, "You know what? Maybe the mutli-culti crowd will only get it when these 'Minutemen' turn their guns on them, so let's just withdraw from the world and let it happen so they get it through their thick skulls what we've been saying all along."

Anybody else feel this way?

20 Cartman  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:04:17pm

9/11 is all but forgotten now. Move on, nothing more to see here. A leopard can change its' spots.

21 DesertSage  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:05:30pm
Bottle rockets were set off from building courtyards, a poor man’s fireworks: two rockets here, three rockets there.

It would take another four years to figure out that burning cars made a bigger, more festive statement...

22 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:05:53pm
23 Just Another Four-Letter Word  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:06:06pm

#16 Still Rolling

Welcome!

(I know what you mean about being unable to register from "halfway around the world", since I was on Diego Garcia for four months before I could register due to the time zone shift...)

JAFLW

24 LanceKates  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:06:22pm

ahh... more people to kick in the junk and pee on.

25 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:08:21pm

#24 LanceKates

High School reunion coming up?

26 Still Rolling  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:08:30pm

#22 ploome hineni
International Herald Tribune is owned and operated by the NY Times; most of the content is the same crap that you find in the Old Grey Lady, but with a healthy heap of rancid anti-Americanism.

27 LanceKates  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:09:39pm

#25 Kragar

LOL... no, why?

28 LanceKates  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:10:30pm

#26 Still Rolling

most of the content is the same crap that you find in the Old Grey Lady, but with a healthy heap of rancid anti-Americanism.

I think you just repeated yourself.

*grin*

29 Still Rolling  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:10:35pm

#23 JAFLW
Thanks for your service to America.

30 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:12:40pm

#27 LanceKates

the whole junk kicking. Just projecting, nothing to see here, move along.

I've met one guy I knew from High School since '91. I'm still not allowed in that bar.

31 big L  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:13:13pm

Hmm-car-swarms, also cars set on fire, also bottle rocktets.
there is a pattern here...

32 realwest  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:14:03pm

#9 Iron Fist - Still Rolling has been REGISTERED since 11/05/05 but made his first comments here in July of 2004. Nonetheless, I'd like to welcome you "back" myself, Still Rolling and a great story for you to give Charles to start a thread. Time zones or no time zones, welcome aboard and post as frequently as you can; some of us are on at weird hours cause we're either insomniacs, taking unusal medications or just plain weird.
This is asolutely the first time I heard of the "celebrating" in Germany (by the Moslem Community) of 9/11. We all know and Charles makes sure we can't forget (not that I could or would want to) the celebrating in the Arab Street. But in Germany? No mention of it at all in the MSM, I guarantee it. Probably the same situation in France and most of Europe with significant Moslem populations. This would've/should've been a warning flare to Europe about it's INTERNAL relationships with people who would celebrate such a terrible tragedy.
Way to go, once again, MSM.

33 LanceKates  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:15:22pm

#30 Kragar

people I knew in high school are not within 800 miles of me.

I just get tired of people celebrating when America gets kicked.

34 ted  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:15:50pm

However, the MSM bogus report that "a woman" saw 5 Isralis dancing around a van in New Jersey after the towers fell was immediately beamed around the world

35 ted  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:17:12pm

14 and they make a damn good chocolate cake too

36 realwest  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:20:45pm

12 Kragar (proud to be kafir) - GREAT post! Really. I hadn't seen this in the MSM (at least not with Bolton's explanation - which makes perfectly good sense to me - as to why we are witholding budget approval. Again, thanks for a great post.

37 Iron Fist[deleted]  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:20:50pm
38 metal man  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:21:45pm

#35 ted
Good stuff from Germany
MMM Bratwurst

39 mich-again  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:22:55pm

35 ted

How could I have left that out? They make the BEST chocolate cake.

As far as beer, I'm partial to the Canadian variety. And for cars, IMHO there's nothing like American pushrod muscle.

But the Germans really do make great potato salad and chocolate cake. Oh and Hummels. Those are nice too.

40 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:24:02pm

Store Attacks Set Off Strife Within Islam

OAKLAND, Calif., Dec. 1 - The authorities charged two men on Thursday with felony hate crimes, vandalism and false imprisonment in connection with attacks last week on two liquor stores owned by Muslims of Arab descent.

One of the men, Yusuf Bey IV, 19, is the son of a prominent black Muslim leader who founded Your Black Muslim Bakery Inc., a company that operates a bakery and several other Oakland businesses.

Mr. Bey's father, Yusuf Bey, who died two years ago, established an Islamic sect similar to but not affiliated with the Nation of Islam, the organization led by Louis Farrakhan.

The other man charged on Thursday was Eugene Cunningham, 73, an associate of the elder Mr. Bey.

plus, obligatory MSM smokescreen:

The owners of the liquor stores and many patrons suggested that the incidents had been motivated by economic hardship and race, not religion.

"These guys are frustrated about something," said Mikael Artle, 21, a food server who lives one block from the San Pablo market. "Just look at the neighborhood. It's depressing to be out there while the rich get richer and the poor get poorer."

Did I miss something? The one guy inherited several businesses. WTF does kind of economic hardship does he have?

41 ted  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:24:28pm

12 36

Bolton is amazing...Finally the scUNbags at Turtle are getting their miserable,terrorist asses whipped

42 godfrey  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:25:09pm

And now for the IHT positive read: Muslim women take charge of their faith

As educated Muslim women assert their place, they appear to be forging a strand of Euro-Islam, a new hybrid that would at least attempt to reconcile the principles laid out in the Koran with life in a secular, democratic Europe.
43 mattm  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:28:21pm

While 9/11 was horrifc you must understand the details. Before the [terroist network] was ever started [insert GOP learer(s) here] were planning of the destruction of [insert loation(s) here.] This was to start a war aganis the soverign, innocent nation of [insert nation]. This war was only started so the evil capalitist corporations of [insert company here] could makeke more money. This caused [insert minority] to endure great suffering.

/moonbat off

44 looking closely  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:30:22pm

#19 Indefatigable

Some things never change. . .some people never learn.

They live among us, comprise our friends and families, and we are obligated to take care of them, no matter how Idiotarian.

45 ted  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:30:27pm

38-39
Agreed...When i was younger my mom would buy Sara Lee German Chocolate Cake...Good stuff

Havent had it in awhile, but generally i found Sara Lees cake arent as good as they used to be

Maybe Entenmans knocked them out of the box

46 jimgoism  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:31:05pm

I want to say i am not a racist..
God loves all...
However there is something else beneath the surface. You can feel it when ever your in contact with a TRUE Muslim...

Sheer HATRED of not just you but of this great nation...

a Satanic Hatred that will not be quenched easily..

I walked into a 7/11 store not two months ago
I mentioned to the clerk who obvously was either pakastani or iranian about the high gas prices...

He told me
"Then Bush shoudnt have messed around in iraq"
The meaning was quite clear...

The poor muslims are the victims and the americans are the evil ones..

I flat out told him they better be glad i wasnt president ..
I would have LEVELED Baghdad.

That shut him up...
He was expecting another Sheepeople
Not an AMERICAN!

Europe better wake up fast or there may not be a europe in 10 years folks... and the muslim population will be at 15 - 25%
In any Democracy thats enough to take power if you get a bunch of leftist wimps witout any backbone..

47 Mule  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:34:46pm

Yo all. If you want some tunes while we are chatting I'm the DJ on WPKN.org right now. now playing, city of tiny lights. ... enjoy...

48 Van Impe  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:35:51pm

Hve you heard about Showtime's new series "Sleeper Cell"?
NY Times says:

"Sleeper Cell" is better than "24."


What's it about?

Showtime's new series about an undercover F.B.I. agent who infiltrates an Islamic fundamentalist cell plotting a bioterrorist attack in Los Angeles.


Who are the villains?

One is Ilija (Henri Lubatti), a Bosnian Muslim whose entire family was massacred by Serb and Croat Christians. As a cover, he teaches high school science. He is bloodthirsty for revenge but has a weakness for American music, from techno-pop to rap. Christian (Alex Nesic) is a French convert to Islam, a thuggish muscleman and former skinhead who drives a Hollywood tour bus to hide his true reason for being in the United States. He irritates his Muslim comrades with constant Gallic sniping about American football and junk food, though he too is a psychopath with a sweet tooth for pop culture, including Mexican soap operas. Tommy (Blake Shields) is a blond, blue-eyed student of the Koran, the son of liberal Berkeley professors. Theirs is an uneasy but sometimes engaging camaraderie: "Entourage" with a license to kill infidels.


Who's the hero?

Darwyn al-Sayeed (Michael Ealy) is the hero, an African-American undercover agent who is a practicing Muslim, and who goes to prison under the alias Darwyn al-Hakim in order to create a criminal profile attractive to Muslim extremists. The prison librarian is the go-between who puts Darwyn in touch with Faris al-Farik, a mysterious, silky smooth terrorist leader who has his own alias: in Los Angeles, he goes by the name Yossi, posing as a Jewish businessman who coaches Zionist Little League. (His team is called the Sinai Maccabees.)


After all:

The series's creators are careful not to offend Muslim sensibilities with their depiction of underground jihadists. For one, the hero is himself a Muslim. Some of the more ruthless mujahedin are European and American converts, not Arabs. As the series unfolds, devout Muslims who preach nonviolence pop up to explain what the Koran really says about fighting the infidel. (Naturally, these kinds of peace-seeking Islamic scholars are high on the list of the extremists' assassination targets.)

From NY Times

49 michael moore's coffin  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:38:22pm

#12 Kragar

Thanks for that. I have such a Jm J. Bullock moment everytime I see the letter "U" next to the letter "N"...you know, eyes rolling, arms flailing.

I'm sooo over them... :-)

50 mich-again  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:38:39pm

42 Godfrey

True story that kind of relates to your post. Tonite we went to the kids school for movie night where families hang out in the school gym and watch a movie projected onto the wall. My 11 year old son wanted us to meet his friend Ali's parents because Ali isn't allowed to come over to our house until his parents met us. whatever.

Dad was Pakistanian I'm pretty sure. Mom was 100% whitebread American, but wearing the hijab and otherwise normal JC Penny outfit. Their 3 daughters also wore the hijab.

Anyways, they were friendly other than the fact that she wouldn't shake my hand when we introduced ourselves to them. And they came to the crowded gym to watch a Christmas movie, The Polar Express.

Ya think mom had anything to do with the fact that they brought the family to watch a Christmas movie? Is this sort of thing even conceivable back in Pakistan or elsewhere in the Islamic world? I think not.

51 quark2  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:39:32pm

@37 Iron Fist

That makes Still Rolling a neighbour of Wretchard the Cat of Belmont Club fame. :)

52 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:40:06pm

Did I read that right? Peter Schneider from the NYT? Doesn't this article play against their platfo-... ideolo-... doctrine?

53 michael moore's coffin  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:40:22pm

#48 VI

I just saw the trailer for it. I did sit up and take notice. Then I remembered Mark Steyn's piece about Hollywood..and all the BS about NOT offending Muslims. Meh...

54 solomonpanting  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:40:45pm

From the link:

So this 23 year old woman was about to receive her journeyman's diploma to become an electrician before she was murdered by her brothers. There's so much that's infuriating and sad:

1. She was murdered for adopting Western ways.
2. She was pushed into a forced marriage and gave birth at 17.
3. In a country where 50% of young Muslims are unemployed, she tried to make her marks.
4. These traditional Muslim practices have been allowed to flourish under the guise of German guilt and muticulturalism.
5. There's no end in sight.

55 Beagle  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:40:56pm

Europe is lost already, before most know they're in a war. IHT deserves kudos for showing some guts.

56 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:42:31pm

#46 jimgoism

I want to say i am not a racist..

Dont fall into the same trap so many others do.

Islam is not a race. It is an ideaology(I know I spelled it wrong), and as such, it open to be looked upon like other belief systems.

Would you call yourself a racist for speaking out against Nazism, Socialism, or Facism? No.

57 SwampWoman  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:42:38pm

#55 Beagle

I don't know about that. I don't think the Europeans have lost yet, but there's a helluva fight brewing.

58 Iron Fist[deleted]  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:43:40pm
59 michael moore's coffin  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:44:23pm

#47 Mule

I hit the listen link and it wants to launch a .pls file via MusicMatch. WTH?

Would like to check out what Bridgeport has to offer though.

60 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:44:53pm

That isn't as bad as the Mossad Kids dancing on the roofs of NYC buildings on 9-11.


`


/DINT?

61 Iron Fist[deleted]  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:44:55pm
62 Beagle  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:46:25pm

#57 SwampWoman

I don't know about that. I don't think the Europeans have lost yet, but there's a helluva fight brewing.


There are only two ways to reverse Europe's demographic fate. One is deportation. Knowing Europe, somehow they'll end up at number two.

63 zombie  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:47:00pm

The strange thing is, I stayed for an extended period in Kreuzberg just before 9/11 -- well, in 1999 to be exact. It was the middle of the dot-com boom, even in Germany, and a friend of a friend had a dot-com startup and for some reason they let me hang around the company and someone let me stay in a spare room in their home, both of which were in Kreuzberg. Their were a lot of Turks in Kreuzberg, but everyone described it as the trendy neighborhood of Berlin. The young Teutonic techheads loved the inexpensive rents and cheap imbiss places where they'd get doner kebabs, but no one really even interacted with the Turks in a meaningful way. They were just there as exotic wallpaper.

Little did anyone know what was brewing. Even me -- the concept of "the Muslim problem" never occurred to me the entire time I was there.

64 michael moore's coffin  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:47:33pm

#61 Fist

Well, LGF (that's Lions Gate Films) puts out mucho head choppery, me thinks. It's a start.

65 Mule  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:47:51pm

It requires realplayer. maybe thats the problem. I didnt say it was a good stream :) if you have realplayer try launching it and then click listen...now playing.. "close to the edge" Yes

66 michael moore's coffin  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:49:48pm

#65 Mule

"SHARP!"

"DISTANCE!"

I'll try that. I did web radio back in '98. Man, what a bitch.

67 Mule  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:50:44pm

Maybe they blocked my show ;) you try being a conservative rock DJ at a pacifica station. I dedicate every show to the memory of Daniel Faulkner (who mumia shot in the head). they hate me :)

68 gus3  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:50:51pm

zombie,

Did you hear my shout out this evening on our local conservative station?

69 Hyphen  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:51:06pm

What would have happened had there been Muslims in the US who fired rockets into the air or dance in the streets after 9/11?

70 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:51:18pm

I've been drunk of Diego Garcia, but sadly, never purchased a "Footprint of Freedome" t-shirt when I had the chance.


I forgot what they called it exactly, a Class Six or Category VI store or whatever, but darnation, no arguing with the price of alcohol there!

71 Mule  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:51:45pm

we are on 89.5 FM if you are in CT, RI or Long Island...

72 LanceKates  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:51:47pm

#69 Hyphen

nothing. The ACLU would have rushed to their aid... just like the flag burners.

73 michael moore's coffin  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:52:49pm

#1-#65 (anyone)

How many Firefox freaks know how to deal with the scrolling on this damn browser. When I post, it refreshes and pops me back up to the top. Is there a setting that I can change to refresh back to the point on the page I was viewing...i.e. the bottom?

74 Stop Hillary  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:53:31pm

#5 jammie -- "Alot of the same celebrating was going on in Paterson, NJ, among other [bigoted word] enclaves."

Well, the NJ Star Ledger emphatically declared with unprecedented certainty that such celebrations never took place.

A friend of mine lives in Paterson, he says otherwise. Who do I believe, my friend who lives there or the LLL MSM of NJ?

75 Mule  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:53:57pm

#69, they did in Brooklyn, by my sister's house on atlantic ave. big parties. i'm amazed at her restraint. I was too busy shaking because I was walking toward tower 2 at 8:45.

76 biggyrat  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:53:58pm

I see a very large conflaguration in the future of humanity. It will be fueled by PC stupidity. People on this planet should open thier eyes to reality, before the spark is struck.

77 zombie  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:55:30pm
#68 gus3
zombie,
Did you hear my shout out this evening on our local conservative station?

No! What did you say? I rarely listen to the radio.

78 Mule  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:55:42pm

MMC, download the latest version and the active X extension, mine behaves much better since I did those two things

79 gus3  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:56:03pm

#73 michael moore's coffin:

It's because of the "#comments" in the URL. Remove that, scroll down to your heart's content--but don't post a comment or you'll go back to the top of the Comments area.

80 michael moore's coffin  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:56:39pm

#75 Mule

Damn, that's crazy.

81 gus3  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:56:52pm

#77 zombie:

I said "...and a shout out to zombie, out there on the front lines with me, thanks for exposing the media lies!"

82 Mule  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:57:29pm

yo zombie, glad you are in the hizzy, so I can tell you yer site rocks !

83 zombie  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:58:08pm
#81 gus3
I said "...and a shout out to zombie, out there on the front lines with me, thanks for exposing the media lies!"

You're kidding! [Blushes.] Thanks!

What station/show was that on?

84 Luigi  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:58:32pm

Just to make sure nobody misses it, here is the opening graph of the above story.

On the night of Feb. 7, 2005, Hatun Surucu, 23, was killed on her way to a bus stop in Berlin by several shots to the head and upper body, fired at point-blank range. An investigation showed that months before, she had reported one of her brothers to the police for threatening her.

The youngest brother confessed because...

According to Seyran Ates, a lawyer of Turkish descent, it is generally the youngest who are chosen by a family council to carry out such murders, or to claim responsibility for them. German juvenile law sets a maximum sentence of 10 years' imprisonment for murder, and the offender has the prospect of being released after serving two-thirds of the sentence.

Zero immigration now, please.

85 Mule  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:58:32pm

Oh yeah, the mosques in brooklyn are finsbury park bad.

86 Hyphen  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:58:33pm

Sadly, I did not hear of such celebrations in the US after 9/11. I was politically indifferent and relied too much on the MSM. :(

87 Beagle  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:58:41pm

#63 zombie

Even me -- the concept of "the Muslim problem" never occurred to me the entire time I was there.


By 1998, I was on board with the problem being religious (1996 Saudi Arabia, 1998 African embassies, Osama's two fatwas). I didn't dig into Muslim theology (really boring and sick, but necessary) until about September 12th, 2001.

88 gus3  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:58:49pm

#83 zombie:

KSFO. Are there other local conservative talk stations?

89 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 6:59:08pm

#73 michael moore's coffin

Hit "end", then "page up" twice after you post. Thats the cheat code

90 zombie  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:00:19pm
#82 Mule
yo zombie, glad you are in the hizzy, so I can tell you yer site rocks !

Why thank you! Working on a little something for it right now -- though not involving any zombie photos. I need feedback on it so I'm waiting for an open thread to ask the minions.

91 michael moore's coffin  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:02:27pm

thanks, ladies.

'Fox 1.5...will it do a clean install or will it just update?

92 gus3  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:02:43pm

#90 zombie:

In case you hadn't noticed, there hasn't been an open thread for a few days.

I'm working on my counter-protest report. I'll post it here when it's ready.

93 Mad Mullah  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:04:19pm

I would guess that many people (the ignorant ones) are still under the assumption that only a few Palestinians were dancing in the streets after 9/11, and there are even those that still deny that event, repeating the lie about the hoaxed TV footage.

The reality is that there were probably small celebrations world wide in virtually every community where one finds Muslims. I have read about celebrations and specific incidents in plenty of countries and even in New Jersey. There is obviously plenty more that went unreported. I would love to see a comprehensive list with this data outlining the individual celebrations.

As for Eurabia, it will be interesting to see how they deal with the problem of their hostile immigrants in the future.

94 Mule  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:06:22pm

#91 MMC, it will just update

95 Still Rolling  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:06:44pm

#37 Iron Fist
Let me put in a good word for Indonesia, the world's third largest democracy. Even though the population here is 85% Muslim, there is a spirit of tolerance that seems to be embedded in the society. I look out my window and see SE Asia's largest mosque, adjacent to a large cathedral. People from all walks of life here make it a point of pride to note the general openness and tolerance of the population in general. Truthfully, I feel the conflagration that many lizards believe is coming can be avoided if the US stays strong, focuses on hitting the real bad guys HARD, and works like heck to promote and support countries like Indonesia that are basically inclined to support America. I have yet to run across ANY anti-Americanism here after a year here; instead, there is a ready smile and friendliness toward Americans.

96 zombie  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:07:34pm
#88
#83 zombie:

KSFO. Are there other local conservative talk stations?

Well, KNEW has Jeff Katz and Michael Savage. Though I don't often catch them any more.

97 ted  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:09:10pm

Ed...what were you doing in Diego Garcia besides drinking ?

98 michael moore's coffin  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:10:44pm

#96 Z

I gotta say, Savage is just a blow-hard most of the time. Most radio guys really like to hear themselves talks, you know?

/no disrespect to Mule

99 Rayra[deleted]  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:11:48pm
100 zombie  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:13:19pm
#95 Still Rolling
Let me put in a good word for Indonesia, the world's third largest democracy. Even though the population here is 85% Muslim, there is a spirit of tolerance that seems to be embedded in the society.

Ah yes, in cosmopolitan Jakarta it's OK, and in Hindu Bali, but out in the sticks there is extremism:

Lashes from a rattan cane punish a gambler in Banda Aceh. The semiautonomous region is the only province in Indonesia that has implemented Islamic Shariah law.
101 LanceKates  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:13:49pm

I know Christmas is coming... but I still want to buy this

102 Rayra[deleted]  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:15:19pm
103 LanceKates  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:18:34pm

All that really matters is that we can agree that the United States starts many more problems than it ever solves... from environmental issues to matters of botched foreign policy... it truly is the fault of the United States of Amer.. *THUMP*

*drag*

*Slam of closet Door*

Sorry Guys... the Moonbat I captured got out for a moment.

104 mad_scientist  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:19:28pm

#69 Hyphen

What would have happened had there been Muslims in the US who fired rockets into the air or dance in the streets after 9/11?

Not sure, but I know it wouldnt have been good.

105 Mule  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:19:50pm

#102 rayra. see?
meaning what did I see? everything. both explosions people jumping. people lives dropping to the ground at my feet...real horror show.

106 mad_scientist  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:22:11pm
I gotta say, Savage is just a blow-hard most of the time. Most radio guys really like to hear themselves talks, you know?

Speaking of Savage, was anyone listening to him tonight? He was talking about suicide bombers being on drugs...he acted like it was some big surprise...wasnt that known a while ago?

107 LanceKates  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:23:31pm

#106 mad

yeah.. it was... but if he didn't act suprised, then he couldn't later claim that he was the first to report it.

108 Still Rolling  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:23:32pm

#100 zombie
I have spent a fair amount of time in Banda Aceh; it may be Sharia law, but it is about as far from the Saudi wahhabi variant as could be imagined. I see no indication that the occasional caning of gamblers will ever escalate into something more ominous. You will not see any burkas (except on the few unfortunate women from the middle east who have been dragged here by their Kuwaiti or Saudi masters...truly, Indonesians do not wear burkas).

109 Van Impe  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:24:02pm

This incident requires further investigation:

Toronto — The army is looking into a bizarre incident in which a tractor-trailer loaded with anti-aircraft missiles was seen rolling down an Ontario highway.
Several police cruisers were needed to pull over the vehicle as it travelled westbound on Highway 407 near Toronto.
The trailer was carrying two armoured personnel carriers bearing Department of National Defence licence plates and loaded with anti-aircraft missile launchers.
Police took the driver into custody at the scene, and the armoured carriers have been taken to a storage depot.

source

110 mad_scientist  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:26:46pm

Lance,

Thought I heard that somewhere before...isnt that against the principles of Islam? No drugs or alcohol...

111 equable  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:29:53pm

Off topic, but what's this I wonder"

"NBC: Al-Qaida No. 3 leader killed in Pakistan, U.S. and Pakistani officials say."

Happy Friday folks. That there's some good news.

112 Stuck in california  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:30:03pm

Anybody home?

113 mad_scientist  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:30:41pm

I'm lurking about...what's up?

114 LanceKates  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:30:43pm

#110 mad

The "Rules" of Islam are kind of like the "Pirate Code"

"Not really rules - more a set of guidelines"

When it is to the benifit of the Muslim Cleric, he seems to be able to declare exceptions to rules and laws.

if only they'd declare an exception to the rules and laws about killing nonmuslims.

115 Rayra[deleted]  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:32:21pm
116 mad_scientist  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:33:15pm
When it is to the benifit of the Muslim Cleric, he seems to be able to declare exceptions to rules and laws.

Well, that's one thing the slims' have in common with LLL's then. They want a set of rules for us evil conservatives, but they have free reign to do what they want...

117 Just Another Four-Letter Word  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:33:29pm

#70 Ed...:

Ships Store. Very, VERY crappy in their selection, everything overpriced. The Navy has original control of the island - if they ever put up an AAFES it would be bearable... and you would be able to get what you NEED as well as what you WANT.

The alcohol was cheap but the milk and eggs were *always* in short supply, and expensive! (I don't drink)

P.S. everybody - they paint the cocanut trees in WHITE PAINT up to 6' high so the drunks don't walk into them at night and end up with a palm frond or (worse!) a cocanut falling on their heads/shoulders- said misfortune giving the recipient a headache, concussion/broken bone!

JAFLW

118 LanceKates  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:34:31pm

#116 mad

aye lad... and when that happens... them that dies be the lucky ones...

119 quark2  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:35:03pm

@109 Van Impe

Someone posted briefly about this earlier today. I checked Fox News and found nothing.
Hope more is reported about this.

120 saltmarsh  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:36:47pm

This must be the friday nite sober thread...

iiappc

121 mad_scientist  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:37:01pm

#118 Lance

arrr...walk the plank and shiver me timbers (in my best pirate voice)

122 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:37:08pm

First time in Diego Garcia- Paradise

5 days waiting for the C-141 going to al Masirah. Mustered at 7 am, for some make work stuff, light cleaning in barracks, but I was already an NCO, so it wasn't bad, and our work day ended at noon, because they figured it was too hot. So we'd head to the Class 6 (or whatever it was called) store, grab some beers, head to the lagoon, or maybe head to the swimming pool.

Second Time- Still pretty cool

I was back with the USS Chuck Wagon (CVN-70) about two years later, Loretta Lynn was doing a USO show, plus free beer and BBQ on the beach. I heard the regulars complained about an abysmal male-female ratio, and I hear rumors of enlsited Navy woman banking double or triple their pay, but for short visits, it was pretty cool.

123 mad_scientist  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:37:37pm

#120

This must be the friday nite sober thread...

Where is the drunk thread? I'm in...

124 Stuck in california  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:37:39pm

JFALW,

When I've been drunk, no white paint gonna stop ME from runnin' inta no trees...

125 LanceKates  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:38:12pm

#121 mad

I'll have you know that the only timbers i'll be shivering will be those of my wife (should I ever find one)


and with that... Time for bed. Target shooting is tomarrow morning, and I am excited.

126 Zack  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:38:58pm

If one notices an obviously unhealthy change in one's body, one might at least try to defeat and eliminate the disease by whatever means. If instead one ponders and wonders why it is attacking, and do nothing to destroy it, well one might just be done for.

We look on aghast at the Herculean denial efforts Europeans are undertaking to accept the malignancy which steadily consumes them. The tumors keep growing and spreading, and they continue to rationalize and wish it is something other than what it is.

How ironic that they've chosen to accept the disease simply because it exterminates Jews, blinded by their genocidal lust to the fact that they too will fall. How horribly unfortunate for them.

127 quark2  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:39:15pm

@115 Rayra

I remember there being thread discussions in the past about the moslims celebrating in New Jersey after 9.11.

I think one of our lfgers posted about celebrations in Germany as well, but it's been quite sometime.

OT

Has fjordman finally gone black with his blogging?

128 Wingnut  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:40:00pm

I find a GREAT deal of irony in the fact that as Christianity has been pushed back in Europe in the last 100 years or so by enlightenment/secularism/relativism (see French revolution/German philospers) and in America for the last 40-50 years (baby-boomers nursed on same intellectual secularists/philosophers)that Islam has flooded quietly into the void.

Not to get overly theological but humanity is wired to be religious. To quote Bob Dylan, "You gotta serve somebody..." You may worship God, NFL football, secularism, evolutionary theory, or politics. Lately it has been Rodney King "can't we all just get along" and Coca-Cola "I'd like to teach the world to sing, in perfect harmony..."

While we were all out passing out Cokes, the Muslims came in and accepted our Cokes and learned in our universities. We said, aren't they quaint people? In their buhrkas and head-scarves. And as we vacationed in Morroco and Istanbul and Egypt we said "Isn't their call to prayer over the loud speaker outside the mosques beautiful, what a beautiful religion. A religion of peace."

Meanwhile, Akbar, having graduated from our university, begn brining his family over here, slowly and quietly assimilating into our culture but all the while retaining their deeply held religious beliefs. America was truly tolerant then, when tolerant meant to put up with or to agree to disagree. No one knew what the Koran said, nor did they care, there just aren't that many of them to worry about.

I guess it started in Lebanon in the 70s, then 444 days in Tehran, then a Marine barracks in Beruit, then the Afghan/Soviet war, then the 90s and embassy bombings, and Desert Storm, the USS Cole and then 911. And we started looking around and said "Holy crap, Batman...they're everywhere!"

And because we don't or won't understand our religious roots in this nation, read Christianity, we don't or won't see the threat. Most people that went to church as a kid and have been turned off by all of the "hell-fire and damnation" and by the "narrow path to heaven"...what will you do when the Muslims come for your head with their rusty knives because if you ain't Muslim, you're still an infidel to them.

Wow...sorry 'bout that rant.

//lurks back into the corner

129 Stop Hillary  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:40:02pm

#101 Lancekates -- "I know Christmas is coming... but I still want to buy this."

That is one unusual firearm. Sort of a mix between a replica Civil War firearm (sort of looks like the cap and ball 1858 Remington "New Army" Revolver with some distinct differences) but capable of firing todays cheaper .22 metallic rimfire cartridges.

Personally, if you want to go in that direction, get a decent CW replica from "Navy Arms", Uberti, or even Pietta. All on the www. True blackpowder cap and ball replicas. Downside, no indoor range I know will let you shoot them because of the smoke and they are not as convenient to use because they don't use metallic cartridges. To me though, that's the fun of it.

130 mad_scientist  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:40:10pm

LOL, take er easy man.

131 saltmarsh  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:40:23pm

#124 sic

Just show me the gutter and i'll fall into it.

132 gus3  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:41:41pm

Tonight's counter-protest report is a little different. First, my fingers still feel tingly from the cold--it's 49 deg F outside right now as I type this! Second, I gave myself a little treat, which I'll explain.

I arrived around 6:20pm, and it was already dark, naturally. It wasn't really much of a "counter-"protest, as there was only one anti-war sign-holder on the next corner. I did *not* go to "their" corner; any confrontation will be initiated by them, not by me.

I started holding my sign, and waiting for an occasional honk, wave, "thank you!"... and waited... for what seemed like days. Nothing. I did take some comfort in the fact that the guy on the next corner got maybe one horn toot every five minutes. The rush-hour people just weren't doing much this evening.

About a half hour later, I started hearing horns and seeing waves and thumbs-up. Not many, but enough. I also heard someone on the other side of a city bus yelling, "You suck!" Ain't Free Speech grand?

Wearing a leather jacket was good. It kept my body heat in. I'm also glad I'm not bald. But I guess it was silly of me to wear dress slacks to the office today, and then stand in the cold tonight.

About 7:15, I thought I would give myself and our local pro-freedom supporters a little treat: I called our local conservative talk radio station while I was standing on the sidewalk. I got right through, told the call screener my name and what I was doing, and he put me on hold immediately.

Over the next half hour, I held the sign, moved my arms and legs to keep from getting stiff in the cold, heard more horn toots and yells of support, and listened to a radio talk show on my cell phone. I could have done worse on a Friday evening.

Finally about 7:45, he took my call. I told him where I was, what my sign said ("Thank you veterans and soldiers for defending our freedom"), and told him to listen for car horns. He did get to hear a couple of our local freedom supporters; they made themselves heard all over the Bay Area and the Internet, without even trying! WOOHOO!

Our conversation lasted only about 3 minutes. Finally, he told me to call anytime I'm out there holding a sign, and we hung up. And I went back to my car and started warming up my fingers!

133 Just Another Four-Letter Word  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:42:25pm

#109 Van Impe:

Correct me if I'm wrong, fellow Lizardoids, but the US military NEVER "transports" ANY military vehicle in the US with it loaded with weaponry. Geez, can you imagine the cow that the LLL's would have if they ever found out this was happening? I know, I know - this was CANADA, but don't you think they'd follow the same safety rules? I do...

The ammo is carried on a different vehicle, if not in a different convoy. Nukes are a whole 'nother case, BTW.

Having said that, the vehicles travelling to/from the Yakima Firing Range are known to have a round or two aboard...

JAFLW

134 Stop Hillary  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:43:10pm

#111 equibabble -- "Off topic, but what's this I wonder"

"NBC: Al-Qaida No. 3 leader killed in Pakistan, U.S. and Pakistani officials say."

Happy Friday folks. That there's some good news."

To the Jihadi supporters of the MSM (which includes NBC) this really is a grim milestone.

135 mad_scientist  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:44:25pm

#131 saltmarsh


I almost got shut off at my local pub last weekend...So I will be drinking at home this weekend. I almost fell into the gutter literally...

136 Stuck in california  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:44:43pm

saltmarsh,

gotta change my initials, keep thinking I spelt something wrong;-)

137 thefrollickingmole  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:44:55pm

Try this for size. The immigration detention centre i was working at in Oz had about 1/3 of the 7-800 people there dancing and celebrating in the compound on 9/11.
This is the facility they are held in while their refugee status is waiting to be granted or denied.
It had no effect on the success of their applications. Scum who danced and sang as the towers went down, who were reported and documented, still were allowed into my country.
I was and still am a teeny bit grumpy about that.

138 Iron Fist[deleted]  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:47:29pm
139 Mule  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:48:43pm

3115 rayra , yeah she saw them having parties in thier shops, like they won the super bowl. very very sick, she couldnt beleive it. she told the ny post, they printed a little and then...nothing. post columnist andrea peyser was also told to shut up about what she saw.

140 mad_scientist  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:48:44pm

#134 Stop Hillary

"NBC: Al-Qaida No. 3 leader killed in Pakistan, U.S. and Pakistani officials say."


Wonder who the number 3 guy is? Bin Laden, followed by Zawahiri (sp?), then ?

141 efuseakay  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:49:35pm

Keep reading in the article about the 3 Muslim women...

142 gus3  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:50:08pm

#138 Iron Fist:

Berkeley is sick.

But we already knew that.

143 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:50:18pm

I never did see the giant tree crabs people warned me about. Another Navy myth, like the square needle shot in the testicles?

144 quark2  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:53:02pm

@127 me

Rayra, it may have been Hans Ze Beeman who posted about the moslims in Germany celebrating.

145 zombie  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:53:11pm
#132 gus3

Good going! It must take the patience of a saint to stand out there. I guess it was during that call that you gave a shout-out to me! Wish I woulda heard it -- I might have dropped dead from shock. Instead, I was at the other end of the scale, trapped at a social function with a hundred LLL media members. Ugh. But I did learn some inside scoop on the Black Muslim/Arab Liquor Store situation in Oakland at least.

146 saltmarsh  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:55:02pm

#143 Ed of the long name

Hanna the Huffer was legendary, but not a myth.

147 Still Rolling  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:55:38pm

#138 Iron Fist
"The day they lay the cornerstone for the first Synagogue next to the First Baptist Church of Mecca is the day this war ends."
Great comment. Take care and see you around on these threads.

148 Zack  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:57:40pm

128 Wingnut

Whatever works Dude. Returning to the malignancy metaphor, recognizing a disease as such doesn't require religious orientation - nor does it hurt. Verily, let us also be aware of the sick f--ks at the World Council of Churches.

149 Stop Hillary  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:58:10pm

#140 mad scientist -- "Wonder who the number 3 guy is? Bin Laden, followed by Zawahiri (sp?), then ? "

Ward Churchill?

150 thefrollickingmole  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 7:58:18pm

Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades
These ones are real and damn ugly.
ran into them on Christmas island over here in oz. Scared the crap out of me finding one at head height on a chain link fence by torchlight.

[Link: www.csinfo.org...]

151 quark2  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 8:00:42pm

@145 zombie

So, we gonna hear this scuttlebutt? :)

152 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 8:02:47pm

They named a crab Hanna?

153 zombie  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 8:03:04pm
#150 thefrollickingmole + Ed

Here's a much better picture of a tree-crab from a Web site a little less bizarre than that one.

154 gus3  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 8:06:04pm

#145 zombie:

So when I gave you the shout out, you really were on the front lines, exposing media lies.

I'd call that "serendipity."

155 saltmarsh  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 8:06:19pm

#152 Ed

I'll tell you about Hanna some time on a quiet thread, when the weather is calm. Perhaps after the hurricane season is over.

156 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 8:08:15pm

153


Zombie-


My wife and I went to Red Lobster last weekend, and I took advantage of her condition as dedicated designated driver for the next 5 months, and enjoyed a couple of cocktails.


I added half a pound of snow crab legs to my meal.

If that crab has edible flesh, those claws are a bonanza!

157 SwampWoman  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 8:09:55pm

#156 Ed

If that crab has edible flesh, those claws are a bonanza!

I was thinkin' along the lines of crab alfredo, but either way, that crab has some serious legs there.

158 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 8:09:58pm

Hurricane season ended yesterday.

159 wee fury  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 8:11:26pm

#148 Zack
Thanks for the link you posted.
It is interesting to see who the members are in the WCC Member list

160 SwampWoman  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 8:11:58pm

#132 Gus

Thanks for getting out there in poor conditions and showing everybody that there are people with differing positions out there! Thanks for making we anonymous people visible.

161 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 8:12:19pm

Bed time. Gotta wake up in 7 hours and tailgate Big XII Title Game.

162 Rayra[deleted]  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 8:15:01pm
163 no2liberals  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 8:16:31pm

Well, look at all the folk's topside.
G'night y'all.(quark2-left you a g'night down yonder)
In case you haven't seen this little video, it is even d-up friendly, but be warned, it a definite KLEENEX *ALERT!*Before you go.

164 saltmarsh  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 8:17:20pm

#158 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades

Picture a Wal-Mart greeter.

Picture a Greek National standing on fleet landing with an oral fixation for all american sailors.

As nice a little old lady as you would ever hope to meet.

Hanna the huffer

165 SwampWoman  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 8:17:36pm

#161 Ed

Goodnight, Ed. My office is getting too cold; need to either get some kerosene for the heater or build a fire in the fireplace, and I'm too lazy to do either tonight.

166 Mule  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 8:18:56pm

Is that what it looks like if you get crabs on your tree? Heavens to Mergatroid!

167 SwampWoman  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 8:19:31pm

#163 no2libs

G'night, Unc. Didn't know you wuz downstairs.

168 zombie  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 8:24:24pm
#151 quark2
So, we gonna hear this scuttlebutt?

Unfortunately, I can't reveal the details. There is only one source for this info, and if I reveal it here, there is a possibility (very very slim, but still a possibility) that the word will get out and the source of the leak will trace the info back to this thread, where they'll learn it was "zombie" who revealed it. Then they'll ponder who in the world they told this info to, and narrow it down to a couple of people. After a bit of research -- they figure out who zombie is.

So, due to my paranoia, I'll have to keep it under wraps. It's nothing too shocking, but intriguing nonetheless. My only clue is this: the Black Muslim Bakery folks are definitely guilty, but they aren't the only Muslims who committed crimes in this brouhaha. Lotta criminal acts being committed by various parties in the story.

169 SwampWoman  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 8:24:40pm

#163 no2libs

Good thing you had a Kleenex alert on that thang.

170 Isaac Schrödinger  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 8:24:54pm

I wrote about the 9/11 reactions in a Pakistani magazine and from Saudi Arabia:

I was reading through a Pakistani magazine where in the letters section was this gem. “The attacks on 9/11, which we all know were caused by Mossad,...” It was mind-numbing. The Muslim world simply couldn't agree as to who was behind the 9/11 attacks when the plain truth was staring them in the face.
Though, what they could all agree on was a sense of uninhibited joy. Whether it was Americans, Israelis or the tooth fairy that was behind 9/11, they didn't mind the auspicious atrocity.
My dad told us of a blue Saudi in his office.
“He was distressed because he wanted the twin towers to topple sideways for more death and carnage.”

As Westerners were horrified and holding moments of silence, the Saudis were celebrating as though they had won the Soccer World Cup.

171 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 8:26:24pm

Damn work encrouching on surfing time, sheesh

172 no2liberals  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 8:27:30pm

#169-Swampie

I got some sense...not that you could tell.
:)

173 ted  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 8:30:41pm

Tomorrow on CSPAN2, Brent Bozell from Media Research Center is gonna debate Mapes...check local listings

Bozell will shred her..aint gonna be pretty

174 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 8:31:28pm

The Euros have made their bed, and now they're lying in it.

175 Robert D  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 8:32:31pm

It might have already been said, but, the National Geographic channel is running a great documentry on the 911 hijackings.

176 Joshua (not a hamster) Scholar  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 8:32:35pm

The touching thing is that Germans were shocked and dismayed at people celebrating 9/11.

The French would neither have been shocked nor dismayed.

177 Scotch  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 8:33:16pm

I thought this was worth reading. Came from orbusax.com


ONE MARINE'S VIEW FROM IRAQ: "So there we are watching good ol reliable CNN..."

[Link: shepherdaway.blogspot.com...]

Not all our enemies are "over there".

178 SwampWoman  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 8:37:06pm

#172 no2liberals

I got some sense...not that you could tell.
:)

Well, sometimes you have given me cause to wonder!

179 SwampWoman  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 8:38:29pm

#168 Zombie

I hope you can tell us one day.

180 Joshua (not a hamster) Scholar  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 8:38:42pm

#170 Isaac Schrödinger

That's very revealing!

You stopped your quote a paragraph too soon though.

I was reading through a Pakistani magazine where in the letters section was this gem. “The attacks on 9/11, which we all know were caused by Mossad,...” It was mind-numbing. The Muslim world simply couldn't agree as to who was behind the 9/11 attacks when the plain truth was staring them in the face.

Though, what they could all agree on was a sense of uninhibited joy. Whether it was Americans, Israelis or the tooth fairy that was behind 9/11, they didn't mind the auspicious atrocity.

My dad told us of a blue Saudi in his office.

“He was distressed because he wanted the twin towers to topple sideways for more death and carnage.”

I felt sick. The US, just a decade before, had sent half a million of her finest to save the Saudis from imminent danger. On 9/11, the citadel of the US was attacked, thousands of innocents were murdered, and the ingrate citizens of Arabia were delighted.

181 NY Nana  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 8:42:10pm

#175 Robert D

We saw it a few times, and now have the DVD. It is one of the hardest things to look at, but is so well done.

Damned memories of that day...they will be with us forever. I still can not look at Lower Manhattan from any of the bridges we cross over going to Queens and Long Island. I doubt that I will ever go anywhere near there again.

182 Killian Bundy  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 8:44:14pm
#168 zombie

My only clue is this: the Black Muslim Bakery folks are definitely guilty, but they aren't the only Muslims who committed crimes in this brouhaha. Lotta criminal acts being committed by various parties in the story.

Sounds a lot like France.

/the Oakland Intefada?

183 Mars Needs Neocons  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 8:46:28pm

day by day cartoon today

We have a couple Indonesian exchange students. Beautiful young women, I got to see some ceremonial slides that one had. They still maintain some of their older beliefs (buddhist maybe?)at least that's what the ceremonies looked like. This is on top of their muslim belief.

Nice people.

184 Robert D  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 8:49:31pm

#181 NY Nana

I've tivo'd it to watch it later. Gotta be able to stop it when the tears flow. Yes, it still hurts all the way out here in California.

185 Mars Needs Neocons  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 9:01:22pm

What to do when the thread seems dead
but the thoughts of the thread are still in your head?

Go to bed?

186 Tokyobk  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 9:14:16pm

This is a very different IHT than I remember from even a year ago. Maybe people are starting to get it, if so, it bodes well for the world.

187 NY Nana  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 9:33:00pm

#184 Robert D

I know exactly how you feel. Bless you...too many people right here in NY sems to have forgotten, and are so LLL that they will find excuses for the bastards that forver changed all of our lives.Excuses?

G'nite. I am off to bed.I wonder if any school system has the cojones to show that to an assembly. Sadly, I doubt it, as the arab students might be offended, dont you know. Puhleeze.

188 abu_garcia  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 9:50:03pm

#19 indefatigable

But then the other part of me says, "You know what? Maybe the mutli-culti crowd will only get it when these 'Minutemen' turn their guns on them, so let's just withdraw from the world and let it happen so they get it through their thick skulls what we've been saying all along."
Anybody else feel this way?

*raises hand*

189 nonic  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 11:14:59pm

I don't understand how this works.

The article in IHT is by "Peter Schneider" identified "The New York Times."

But "Peter Schneider" is also described as "a German novelist and essayist." So he's not a reporter who works for the Times.

So, I thought maybe this piece is printed in the Times.

But I searched the Times website for both "Peter Schneider" and "Hatun Surucu" (the girl whose murder is told of at the beginning of the piece).

And this piece is not on the Times website.

So, what's going on here? I don't understand. What does "The New York Times" have to do with Peter Schneider or this story?

190 Tokyobk  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 11:17:57pm

#189

IHT used to be a Joint Venture of the Wash Post and NYT. Now it is, in effect, the European and Asian version of the Times, and partners with local papers.

191 nonic  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 11:32:55pm

#190 Tokyobk

Thank you.

Well, that's interesting then.

Okay. So on this page [Link: www.iht.com...] it explains that the IHT is a "publishing partnership"...

QUOTE In Israel - published with Haaretz, Israel's quality daily.

In Greece - published with Kathimerini, Greece's quality daily.

In Germany - published with the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung GmbH Publishing Group.

In South Korea - published with JoongAng Daily.

In Japan - published with the Asahi Shimbun.

In Lebanon - published with The Daily Star.

In Spain - published with El País. END QUOTE

... and publishes "publish local sections that include domestic content in English."

It still doesn't explain what this writer or this story has to do with the New York Times.

It also says...

Thanks to the addition of concise but comprehensive coverage of that country's news and events, advertisers will have a perfect environment in which to place locally targeted advertising.

So it would seem then that this particular story was intended to draw people worried about muslims in Europe.

'Cause I was thinking --- this story doesn't tell us anything new. It's almost a "fluff" piece about stuff we've read before.

Interesting how the media is (choose one) shaping / ignoring / taking advertising advantage of the overthrow of Western civilization.

(Am I being too cynical for so early in the morning? :-)

192 sarahconnor  Fri, Dec 2, 2005 11:41:51pm

#3 still rolling

Germans seem to be starting to get a clue about the cancer in their midst.

Not exactly. Germans had a clue about the cancer in their midst in the 30s and 40s; that doesn't mean they'll do anything about it. Then as now, a combination of complacency and fear constrains them. They joined the Nazi party and sent their kids to Hitler Youth schools out of fear of drawing attention to themselves; they bought Jewish property hauled in on trains because whoever it was stolen from was far away and not their problem. It's not a lack of awareness. It's unwillingness to trade the comforts of daily life for the hardships of resistance. All indications are that they, like the rest of Europe, learned nothing and will do the same thing again this time. "Nie wieder" is merely a slogan on the continent about to produce its third world war.

193 nonic  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 12:00:40am

#192 sarahconnor

I agree with everything you say.

Also, every new generation, it seems, learns nothing from their parents' and grandparents' generation.

People DENY all kinds of threats and problems, from the personal to the global.

Plus, this problem (islamofascism) has been so politicized. If you even talk about it, you're labeled a "racist" or "right-winger."

:-(

194 abu_garcia  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 12:04:08am

#193 nonic

Plus, this problem (islamofascism) has been so politicized. If you even talk about it, you're labeled a "racist" or "right-winger."

The name calling tactic only shows the emptiness of their arguments, a fact you should confront them with.

195 nonic  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 12:28:37am

#194 abu_garcia

Yeah, but they don't consider it empty.

That emptiness that you see is, for them, filled up with your "hatred."

Think about it in family squabbles. "Oh, nothing that [whoever] says is ever right for you, because you don't like [whoever]."

You can try to get past that. "Okay, just for a moment, suspend the idea that I don't like so-and-so. How do you explain what she said about [whatever]?"

But if your "hatred" or "racism" is the only argument people have, they don't want to give it up.

Because then they'd have to re-evaluate their own position and maybe find out they're wrong.

People are very protective of their own positions and ideas.

Even -- maybe especially -- when those ideas clearly don't work.

In the article linked at the top, it says that up to 50% of young muslims in the enclaves in Germany are unemployed, "but they have access to welfare programs."

Isn't it possible that it's the welfare that's keeping them unemployed?

Yet France's response to the recent riots is more welfare.

196 realwest  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 12:55:00am

195 nonic - I agree with much of what you say, but the idea that France's response to the recent riots is more welfare, simply means putting off (perhaps) for a VERY SHORT TIME when people are going to have to face facts, except this time, thanks to larger welfare payments the rioters will be better dressed.
Or Armed.

197 nonic  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 1:08:46am

#196 realwest

Yeah, exactly right.

In the linked article at the top, it says the muslim kids commonly drop out or fail out of school.

And some of the tax-payer supported schools are islamic taught, anyway. So while they are there, probably mostly they learn ideology and hatred of the host country.

That's a system that encourages trouble.

Then, they're unemployed -- probably unemployable -- with attitude, and the welfare state keeps feeding them so they can keep stewing in this mess. While they propagate at astronomical rates.

I'm not the only one here (fjordman is a prime example, and he's on the scene) who believes that civil war is coming to Europe.

And it's going to be very ugly.

It's interesting to speculate what US response will be.

Okay. So, some way or another, we'll defend native Europe.

Russia? Saudi Arabia? China? Big players, all. Will they support the overthrow of native Europe?

Will European civil war --- which they've brought upon themselves -- turn into World War?

Again?

I think, probably, yes.

198 realwest  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 1:32:30am

#q97 nonic - I agree with what you said, but if conditions are that bad in Eurabia, that is to say really shitty for American Business, I'm not so sure the US would come riding to the rescue again. I think an awful lot depends on whether or not the Euorpeans themselves are willing to an do DO use force to keep their respective nationalities. I also see China and Russia as the only two other possible "white knights"
for Europe.
Why on earth would otherwise intelligent and reasonably well educated people think that the way to keep the deliberately isolated, consistently unemployed, "no future" members happy would be to simply give them more money?

199 nonic  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 1:50:30am

#198 realwest

Agreed.

if conditions are that bad in Eurabia, that is to say really shitty for American Business

Very good point. But I doubt it would come to just that, short-term economic self-interest.

If we don't defend Western civiliation in Europe, it will fall in the Americas, too.

And by the end of this century, there could be no American business anywhere.

Another Dark Ages.

I don't know about Russia. And China may have its own "third way" agenda.

We live in interesting times.

200 JohnConnor  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 1:51:47am

#93 Mad Mullah

"I have read about celebrations and specific incidents in plenty of countries and even in New Jersey. There is obviously plenty more that went unreported. I would love to see a comprehensive list with this data outlining the individual celebrations."


This would be an excellent topic for a detailed article - or even an eye-opening book, if any lizard has the time to compile the research. There are probably some good photos out there waiting to be found also.

LGFers around the world - like ones who already posted on this thread - could be an invaluable source of material.

201 nonic  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 1:56:29am

#198 realwest

Why on earth would otherwise intelligent and reasonably well educated people think that the way to keep the deliberately isolated, consistently unemployed, "no future" members happy would be to simply give them more money?

I think part of it is fear. Feed the monster to try to keep it from turning on you. Not that that works, of course. Almost certainly, just the opposite.

Reluctance of the native Europeans to lose their own favorite social programs?

Deeply instilled attitudes of socialism?

Fatalism?

Anyway, assuming "intelligence" is always a risky proposition. :-)

202 Londoner  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 2:01:16am

>And US mainstream media could not have cared less.

Here in the UK no and I mean NO national publication has covered this, no TV station or radio station, except a few Conservative publications.

I was watching a documentary about the lead up to WW2, even until 1938 Churchill was regarded as a war-mongering bafoon out to cause trouble by the British public.

It seems that given the choice beteween facing facts and hoping evil will go away, Europeans will take the easy route.

How will we fight this threat? I cannot see any way except expulsion. What can we in Britain do when 10-15% of our population is Muslim.

203 Tokyobk  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 2:04:43am

Please read the following circulated to graduate students at Columbia, students who will become the college professors of the next generation. It was a speech that took place recently on the "rebellion" in France. I wonder what political point lighting up an old lady makes?

>In November hundreds of French suburbs and towns became scenes of
>open rebellion against anti-Muslim and anti-Arab racism. Thousands
>of cars were torched and warehouses set on fire by youth who are
>the children of North African and Middle Eastern immigrants--people
>who bear the brunt of the racist and discriminatory policies of the
>French government.
>
>The rebellion began in Clichy-sous-Bois, a poor northeastern suburb
>of Paris, after police checking identification apparently chased
>two North African teenagers into an electrical power facility,
>where the two were electrocuted. Nightly rioting spread to other
>predominantly immigrant suburbs around Paris, and then to an
>estimated 300 towns and cities across the country.
>
>The thousands of young people who revolted are a new generation of
>the children of immigrants, who are concluding that there is little
>future ahead for them. Over recent years, they have seen rising
>electoral support for the fascist Jean-Marie Le Pen, new racist
>laws against Muslims and, in the last few weeks, vicious police
>round-ups under the excuse of clearing out immigrants living
>clandestinely. This summer, the deaths of dozens of people in a
>series of fires that swept through unsafe housing for poor Africans
>in Paris underlined how low a priority poor people--and particularly
>non-white poor people--are for the French government.
>
>Join us for a discussion with Edouard on the social and economic
>roots to the rebellion as well as an assessment of the significance
>of the events for rebuilding an anti-racist movement
>against the new colonialism today.
>
>Edouard Soulier is a long term activist, unionist and socialist.  He
>was strongly involved in antiwar activism, the free Palestine
>struggle and Anti-Fascist work in France. He was a leading member
>of various anti-war forums, local student and teacher unions and
>global justice groups. He is also a member of the Ligue Communiste
>Révolutionnaire.

Lovely.

204 Mrs. Beto  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 2:12:00am

#195 nonic

Being willing to see things from another's view...

Linking beyond this morning PJ/osm article of the recent AZERBAIJANI 2 hour demonstration vs. election fraud by the pro-western beaten by police the minute permitted time expired, "with only the West to blame" for lack of support, another story followed:

Armenian citizen Gurgen Margaryan, 26 years old, was hacked to death while asleep by Ramil Safarov, a Lieutenant of the Azerbaijani Army. Both were participants of an English language training course within the framework of the NATO-sponsored “Partnership for Peace” program held in Budapest, Hungary. It was nothing personal--just a premeditated grudge against all of Armenia.

NATO?! lost their marbles not to keep a close eye on their peaceful affairs

205 nonic  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 2:13:52am

#202 Londoner

It seems that given the choice beteween facing facts and hoping evil will go away, Europeans will take the easy route.

I think that's just human nature. (Not particularly European.)

How will we fight this threat? I cannot see any way except expulsion. What can we in Britain do when 10-15% of our population is Muslim.

Aside from the obvious "threat" , I mourn the already lost Britishness.

I've been an Anglophile all my long life. Spent time there (England and Scotland), but not during the last 30 years.

I almost live for watching -- no, consuming -- the classic British TV series. I've read and listened to all of the James Heriot stuff several times over.

I was an English lit major in college --- back when they actually used to teach English lit, instead of multiculti trash.

And it saddens me so much that between creeping muslimism and PC madness, that whole culture seems to be... on its last legs. If even that, anymore.

:-(

206 nonic  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 2:16:38am

#203 Tokyobk

the new colonialism today

Wonder what they think they mean by that?

207 nonic  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 2:20:09am

#204 Mrs.

Wow.

208 realwest  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 2:32:58am

#205 nonic - One thing I've never qite understood (among many, to be sure!) is this:


"How will we fight this threat? I cannot see any way except expulsion. What can we in Britain do when 10-15% of our population is Muslim."

Last time I checked, that meant 85-90% was non Muslim.
What do you mean how will we fight this threat? First thing is find a Prime Minister with some real balls (and no, I'm NOT denigrating Tony Blair for all his help in spite of tremendous oppostion, for sending troops to and keeping troops in Iraq).

But 10% to 90%, to me, means a Prime Minister with the balls to say this is Britain. Here we do things the British way, including, especially, rule by British Law. If you want Sharia law, leave this nation in 30 days. If you'd rather stay here, get used to living under British law and you MUST assimilate into our culture or leave or face hefty jail time. Starting right now.
We will not allow tyranny by the minority and will do whatever it takes to prevent that.

209 nonic  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 2:53:42am

#208 realwest

Actually, "how do we fight this threat" was not my question. It was Londoner's #202.

I agree with your proposed solution -- get tough and insist on maintaining native values.

I say "native" because it's a threat facing all Western cultures right now.

A problem with that solution --- not that it's wrong, just difficult -- is that the West has got itself so deep into "tolerance" and "multiculturalism" and "anti-racism" and the rest of that (crap), that the first battle that has to be fought is acceptance of the idea that some values (those that built the West and its stupendous sucess) are superior and should be promoted over others.

But in addition to requiring assimilation, I think the West also needs to strictly limit (even stop entirely) future immigration and expel worthless troublemakers.

If limitation and expulsion doesn't happen, the sheer demographics will swamp the West regardless of any attempts to force assimilation.

I think it would be a wonderful experiment in sociology/anthropology to see what would happen if these ideologue muslims (the non-assimilators) were confined to the countries of their ethnic origin.

210 Mrs. Beto  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 2:54:15am

#202 Londoner

Expulsion would seem reasonable in short term for the interior stability of one's country. But those being shipped out are hell bent on destroying the West one way or another. So where are they being shipped? The French would return them to their place of racial origin. Given some time, the obvious results--they will make retribution on the West for existing. What's the point of shipping them out if you have them under your thumb at present? It's a choice of one hell or another. No matter how much or how little you do, the results stink. Given that there is no perfect solution...

nonic &
realwest

Bill O'Reilly says that WWIII has already begun with Islamofacism.

Given how the Chinese treat their own people and treat the Tibetans, I would expect them to use economics against America for their own rise in power. The Chinese depend on the allegiance of their people who know that numbers count for a lot in any warfare or survival.

For the past century, Russia has never taken care of her own masses, from the last Czar through Stalin et.al. to the present. The only financially secure Russian enterprise is their mafia. I would expect them to use their influence to hurt America. They have no allegiance to any ideal, only to the power of corruption.

Regarding business abroad, exactly what are the pros and cons to America spending billions of tax dollars on another nation, at the expense of our own? Ex: our machine shops should be the ones producing instead of being shut down and American work being sent to Chinese prison labor. Let the American public demand the quality and pay the price for business at home. Business: cut out the pork bellied grossly overpaid executive pencil pushing pigs that include corrupt labor unions so that the public will choose to buy our own domestic products. It won't happen.

Everyone scratches to hold onto their "own" without a thought towards the larger picture. The world has a bad case of the gimmees.

211 Andrew Ian Dodge  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 2:54:39am

The UK is a different story to the rest of Europe. In the UK there has been an attempt to engage the Muslim population via multiculturalism. For the most part it has pretty much failed to stop the Islamists. However, if look at Europe there they just let them get on with and self-ghettoise themselves.

That is why it is so bad in Germany & France. In UK it is slightly better but not much. But I do think there is hope that this country might turn it round...there are signs this is happening. Lets hope its not too late.

212 nonic  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 3:01:31am

#210 Mrs. Beto

What's the point of shipping them out if you have them under your thumb at present?

I think that assumption (under your thumb) is not only highly questionable, but almost daily proven wrong.

Were French rioters under the French thumb?

he French would return them to their place of racial origin. Given some time, the obvious results--they will make retribution on the West for existing.

As in, Algeria would eventually declare war on France?

That seems to me to be the ideal prospect.

213 flipflop  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 3:04:01am

I've made trips to Germany at least once or twice a year since 1997. Been there three times this year alone.

You don't see a lot of social mixing between the middle easterners (mostly Turks), and the rest of the population. Even in a university town like Heidelberg, you see very little of it, if any.

But I don't think Germany will see the same problems that France has. While the ME crowd doesn't seem to be all that socially integrated, they do seem to be pretty well integrated economically.

Besides...if a group starts getting out of line over there, the polizei has no compunction about giving the offenders a quick wood shampoo and carting them off.

214 Mrs. Beto  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 3:14:20am

#212 nonic

When putting a person on a ship, the government would have bodily possession of that person at that time. No?

215 realwest  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 3:18:38am

#210 Mrs. Beto - I must say that I agree completely with Nonic a #212. I would simply add that it would not disturb me in the least if Algeria, Tunisia or for that matter ANY other ME nation (except Israel) were to delare war on France or England.

216 nonic  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 3:18:59am

#214 Mrs. Beto

Yes... and?...

217 Mrs. Beto  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 3:21:40am

#212 nonic

Judging by today's reality, "declarations of war" are not as likely as active sabotage.

Some people only see things in minutia.
Some people only see generalities.
Some people only see differences.
Some people recognize differences and similarities in minutia and in general.

218 nonic  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 3:25:03am

#215 realwest

it would not disturb me in the least if Algeria, Tunisia or for that matter ANY other ME nation (except Israel) were to delare war on France or England

I think I understand your point -- that France, for instance, sort of "has it coming."

But my point also is that if a NATION declares war on a Western nation, then the Western nation can (excuse me) f*cking do something about it.

As in blast their asses back into the 8th century.

The problem right now is we are fighting a "war on terrorism" because we don't have an identifiable, geographically locate-able enemy.

219 abu_garcia  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 3:28:22am

All this talk of expelling Muslims ignores the fact that the world is dependent at the margin on Muslim oil. Right now the balance between supply and demand is close enough that they also depend on the West for markets for their oil and for cash flow, but that promises to change in the near future. With growth in China and India, and dwindling non-Opec supplies the Muslims will soon have the ability to dictate pricing and favor certain customers. Look for China to make alliances in the Middle East.

WWII was a resource war and WWIII will be one also. "No war for oil" may be a catchy chant, but when people are losing their homes and their jobs predatory practices will be seen for what they truly are - economic warfare. When someone with power seeks your destruction you either respond or cease to be.

We will respond when it gets bad enough.

220 Mrs. Beto  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 3:30:03am

#215 realwest

1. What are their chances of being obliterated declaring "war"
2. What are their chances of succeeding in negotiations rather than declaring "war"
3. If they declared war on France/England, what would that imply with the USA businesses abroad
4. If another Lusitania or 9/11 event were to occur killing thousands of Americans over the war against Englad that you would promote, what would that matter

Beto's awake. Gotta sign off.

Let's enjoy a Saturday without war, lizards.

221 nonic  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 3:30:44am

#217 Mrs. Beto

Judging by today's reality, "declarations of war" are not as likely as active sabotage

Right. Because the enemy is dispersed throughout the West.

Sabotage and terrorism is their weapon of choice now because they have infiltrated so they're able to do it, almost nothing can stop it (or it's very difficult and expensive to stop), and it works.

I would like to change the scenario.

Right now, almost everywhere, terrorism (aka, enemy attacks) get treated as local police problems.

This is nuts. It's to their advantage.

222 FrogMarch  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 3:30:45am

The US mainstream media are all sipping martinis at a swanky NY cocktail party - all waiting to have their turn with Maureen Dowd.

or waiting to ambush Laura Bush in front of the White House Christmas tree.

223 nonic  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 3:36:09am

#219 abu_garcia

All this talk of expelling Muslims ignores the fact that the world is dependent at the margin on Muslim oil.

Yes, and I think that could be used to the West's advantage.

Imagine if an oil-producing muslim country could not export its excess population.

The government of said country would more than ever need oil revenue to feed their masses and protect themselves from them.

The Saudi princes would have an opportunity to learn how to do something besides being ultra-rich parasites.

And I'd bet that all of a sudden birth control would become an islamic virtue.

224 realwest  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 3:36:39am

218 nonic - I apologize but I must not have made myself clear - if Algeria or Tunisia (or better yer both) were to declare war on France (or better yet Germany) that would give France or Germany all the reason they would need to wipe out ALgeria and/or Tunisia. (I know it sounds strange talkinga bout France wiping out anybody in a war, but still, stranger things have happened) and as a member of NATO that would give a number of Western Nations all the "cover" they would need to blow said countrie to kingdom come (no, I'm not talking about Nukes, but about Shock and Awe - the Arabs seem to have terribly short memories about that).

225 nonic  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 3:43:47am

#220 Mrs. Beto
#215 realwest

I think Mrs. Beto is ignoring the fact that there is war, right now.

And mass muslim immigration into Europe, and elsewhere, has set this war up to the enemy's advantage.

1. Immigration must stop.
2. Non-productive trouble-makers must leave.
3. Productive peaceable people must assimilate in the host country.

If not, we lose -- if not this decade, then, with their birth rate, well before the end of this century.

226 goodbye_natalie  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 3:44:57am

Still Rolling,

Thanks for letting us Americans know what the rest of the world is thinking. My only question to the native Germans would be:

"if you were so horrified at what you witnessed on 9/11, why the rabid American hostility after 9/11?"

There will come a time when much of this world owes a big apology to all the dummies called Bush, Rumsfield, Powell, Rice, etc...I don't expect any of them to get one any quicker than the Israel leaders got for vaporizing Saddam's reactors back in '82.

227 abu_garcia  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 3:49:21am

#223 nonic

The government of said country would more than ever need oil revenue to feed their masses and protect themselves from them.

There's plenty of that going on now. I've seen no data that suggests immigration is a significant negative against population pressures in most Muslim countries (obviously it occurs, but is a minor modifier).

If the geologists and engineers are right (one of whom I am, ;-) ), we are facing a bottleneck in the near future that will challenge the ability of industrial civilization to survive.

As long as cash flow feeds the masses and the masses behave as the Iraqis and Iranians did in their war there will be no Islamic push for birth control. Bodies are weapons.

228 wanumba  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 3:53:03am

#168 zombie

With all due respect, don't explain so much. We're all curious, in an approving way, but loose lips sink ships.

229 nonic  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 3:55:13am

#224 realwest

Then we agree.

230 flipflop  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 4:02:43am
231 nonic  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 4:06:05am

#227 abu_garcia

I certainly bow to your (or anybody's) superior knowledge about oil.

But I do think population pressure within ME countries couild certainly be a force.

When there's too many unemployed, even hungry, people, they not only cause trouble among themselves and for their government, they also (some of them) demand change.

Close a steam valve, and the boiler will explode.

There would have to be impact if cultures that start breeding their daughters at puberty and expect 8 or more kids from each of them, simply could not export any of the overflow.

232 J.D.  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 4:39:05am
A calendar which was printed in Egypt and shows a crashing passenger plane with Manhattan and the Statue of Liberty as a backdrop -- and which was printed in May, a full three months before the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks on America -- has caused an uproar in the Dutch town of Almere, Netherlands, the newspaper De Telegraaf reported yesterday.
The calendar was distributed at an Islamic school long before the World Trade Center attacks. Mayor Hans Ouwerkerk, who was alerted to the calendar's existence in the local Islamic school in the town of Almere, immediately notified the Dutch internal security service (BVD) about the strange coincidence. The BVD is reportedly investigating the matter.

"I am supported by Allah, to die for Allah" was quoted on the calendar, the same words reportedly used by an EgyptAir pilot who allegedly crashed a jet in November of 1999.

The Almere Town Council has "urgently advised" the management of the Islamic School Foundation to "cooperate with the Dutch authorities and help determine the calender's origin."

Deputy Mayor Henk Smeeman said the distribution of such controversial Islamic-extremist fundamentalist propaganda material "cannot be tolerated in Almere. The Town Council is a strong supporter of maintaining good intercultural relationships with one another," he said. Some of the calendar's other illustrations show a stone-throwing Palestinian demonstrator in front of the Al-Aksa mosque in Jerusalem, an Egyptian military assault during the six-day war against Israel, and a futuristic image of a Palestinian "freeing" of Jerusalem.

The head of the Islamic school, Mrs. Dekker, allegedly had a large number of calenders in her possession from the end of May to the beginning of June, well-informed sources informed De Telegraaf. When confronted with the calender images, she responded in a shocked, startled manner, asking "How did you get this" before shrouding herself in silence when further questioned by journalists. ...

Here's the calendar picture for September 2001:
Islamic Calendar for Sept. 2001 - Jet hitting lower Manhattan

233 J.D.  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 4:50:01am
...on the night after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks against the United States, large groups of North African youths congregated in the town squares in Antwerp and also in the town of Ede in The Netherlands. In this town, a huge crowd of Muslim male youths had started to congregate shortly after the attacks and started celebrating what they themselves told the horrified local citizens was their personal "victory against America."

This was too much even for the highly liberal Dutch – Ede citizens called in the local police and demanded the youths' removal. However, the local police station commander lamely excused his lack of inaction by saying that the youths had been "expressing their rights to free speech available to all Dutch citizens" and that he was not allowed to stop the distasteful celebration.

And in a shock survey carried out by Muslim cultural publications the day after the attack, a full 80 percent of the thousands of Dutch Muslims questioned said that they had been in favor of the terrorist attacks. ...


International Terrorist Support Groups Thrive in Belgium and Netherlands - Adriana Stuijt, Monday, Sept. 24, 2001

234 Sarah D.  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 4:57:26am

#233 J.D.

Anonymous tipster?

235 Earth2moonbat  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 5:02:51am

This wasn't limited to Eurabia. The "Somali community" in Seattle had a loud block party until the wee hours that night.

236 thinkingmom  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 5:17:17am

Earthtomoonbat,
And yet, we're still importing Somalis. Our immigration policy is suicidal.

237 Londoner  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 5:51:32am

nonic

You can't imagine how much England has changed since the Socialists took power 7 years ago.

Violent and gun crime goes up 10-20%, teenage pregnancy, alcohol and drug abuse up, (in America it's going down), burgalry is so common people don't even bother reporting it to the police.

Immigration went up 300%, where Muslims were seen here and there, they now make up at least 10% of London, and that's the OFFICIAL number.

We've gone from a safe, clean, polite society to a dangerous, dirty frightened society.

Muslims live in ghettos across the UK, and these are growing every year. We have no immigration control. Though if you're an American and try to come here legaly, you're unlikely to get a visa.

Almost all media is Left controled, the anti-American, Socialist BBC still controls 50% of air time. There is a barely hidden hatred of Bush.

But mostly I miss the friendly atmosphere that we used to have. Here in London crime is so out of control, and there are so many people who do not agree with British values, that us locals feel like strangers in a strange land.

It gets worse every day, soon London will be 15 or 20% Muslim. I've nothing against good immigrants, but these are not people you want to be around.

A friend of mine is now moving out of his area which has been taken over by Muslims, he just doesn't feel comfortable there any more.

UK dramas are great, but they're a vision of a long lost world, the world I grew up in, and one you could find 10 years ago, but hard to find now.

If you go to villiages in the countryside the first thing you notice is burglar alarms on all the houses, and security gates. They don't show those in the detective shows.

238 thinkingmom  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 6:14:04am

#237 Londoner,
Your post makes me feel sick. I'm another anglophile (English lit. major). This summer I read The Abolition of Britain, by Peter Hitchens, which details the destruction of the great English culture, by the elites (including Tony Blair). I still can't fathom how it all could have been lost so quickly. My deepest sympathies, and hopes that Britain will throw off its diversity-ridden, politically-corrected shackles in time to help save Western Civilization.

239 Mrs. Beto  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 6:19:07am

#225 nonic

You do not know me to wrongly assert such. Today you do not speak reasonably of me, and have outlandishly misrepresented me. I do not see any reason to engage in verbal warfare simply to satisfy someone's lust to argue.

Obviously, war exists everywhere. Months ago I already stated the points you post today #225. I do not argue the awful situation of our world today.

My earlier post this morning was an effort to engage in a CONVERSATION regarding the future possiblities towards international security. Regarding exportation of terrorists, futility abounds through the extension of resulting possibilities (at least as I imagine would occur). If war and death are the only solutions to eliminating terrorists, then is it easier to deal with the problem population within one's own borders or to ship them out? Shipping them out obviously settles the home front FOR A TIME. But how to contain an exported terrorist population once they are no longer under your auspices? They would scatter in the winds, only to return when you sleep or are otherwise distracted. SIGH, the futility rises. Don't blame me.

I DO NOT PROPOSE THE FINAL SOLUTION AS ANY SOLUTION. It is completely morally wrong.
Cain practiced the "final solution" with Able. Like it or not, the ancient Hebrews practiced the "final solution" in warfare to gain national security. The greatest Aftican warchief (zulu?) realized that no enemy could be left alive. This morning Fjordman (who also does not propose the final solution as any solution) mentioned Napolean's "final solution" of slaves preceding Hitler's "final solution" of political undesirables. So what possibilities have the French and the rest of Europe now?
1. export terrorists and deal with 'em later?
2. deal with them sooner than later at home: hopeless integration vs. hopeless final solution?
3. do nothing?
4. support President Bush and the US led war on terror? But then, that would be too simple for the sophisticated French diplomats (whose predecesors cut off the heads of their own monarchy) to understand, let alone accept.

What a relief that President Bush has given US the opportunity to deal with terrorism now as we are, with the hope for democracy and an element of functioning peaceful co-existence with a rational Middle East. That Western Europe, Canada, South America, Russia and moonbats at home would actively campaign against these reasonable US/coalition efforts is beyond stupid. Only the ostrich sticks his head in the sand facilitating the islamofacist inserting a bomb up the *ss.

Only nonic would say, "I think Mrs. Beto is ignoring the fact that there is war, right now."

240 JHW  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 6:21:29am

#235 and #235 One of the memories that sticks with me of 9/11 was switching around to every conceivable TV channel to try and get a grip on what was happening. On I believe it was C-Span, a brief clip was shown of a plane landing at Gander, Newfoundland, completely full of Somali tribesmen in their native robes, diverted no doubt from their destination of Lewiston, Maine.I remember my incredulous thinking why in the world are we importing these illiterates.Does the USA have a desperate need for goatherds?What can they possibly contribute to this country, besides some multi-culti B.S.? Our immigration policy is truly insane.

241 nonic  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 6:44:40am

#237 Londoner

No more Mrs. Minniver, huh?

I'll bet the young people don't even know the reference.

242 razorbacker  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 6:47:34am

218 nonic

But my point also is that if a NATION declares war on a Western nation, then the Western nation can (excuse me) f*cking do something about it.

As in blast their asses back into the 8th century.

How? Would the vaunted French forces swim across the Med. to battle said nation?

Would the German Panzers battle their way through the Balkins, Turkey, Iraq, and then on to the battlefield?

If Holland goes to war, they'll have to fight weekdays only.

If the big dog don't fight, the little dogs stay home. And the little dogs have signaled their desire to stay on the porch in this war on terror. Given the state of their armed forces, what choice have they?

They've been practicing Dhimmitude for a while, and have it down pat now. Too bad Europe, it was nice to know you.

243 jaybird  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 6:47:53am
And US mainstream media could not have cared less

Oh, they cared. Just remember what their favorite question was at the time: "Why do they hate us so much?" [Stated and/or intoned in such a way as to imply that it was our fault, that we had it coming, and that we had better change our evil imperialistic ways or we would get it again].

244 billhedrick  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 6:52:37am

#240... hmm get out the sandplaster and metal sander! The saying on the base of the Statue of Liberty needs to be erased I guess. We don't want no "poor, tired ... yurning[sp] to be free" anymore.

245 nonic  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 6:58:49am

#239 Mrs. Beto

I'm not engaging in "verbal warfare."

I referred to you in the third person because you said you were signing off (#220), and I thought there had been a 3-way conversation going on between you, realwest, and me. I thought you were gone, and I was commenting to him/her.

You said...

If another Lusitania or 9/11 event were to occur killing thousands of Americans over the war against Englad that you would promote, what would that matter

I took that as a response to realwest's and my suggestion that more clear-cut war between identifiable nations with identifiable targets would be, in some ways, a "better" situation, more easily won by Western allies.

As it is now, we're like the Red Coats lined up in open fields while Mel Gibson and his marauders ambush us from the sidelines.

I read you as saying, no, no, we don't want war.

And I was pointing out that we have war.

If I offended you, I apologize that I did not make myself sufficiently clear, or that perhaps I misinterpreted you.

Me? "Lust to argue"?

Hardly.

:-)

246 nonic  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 7:04:55am

#244 billhedrick

Well, they're not exactly yearning to be free when they want to substitute host country law with sharia. When they want to replace the Constitution with the koran. When they want to suppress our free speech if they imagine some insult against allah.

Those yearners who simply want to replicate their repressive native cultures on "my" soil are not particularly welcome by me.

247 billhedrick  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 7:10:32am

Well, I can't read the minds of the Somali goatherds that JHW saw, so I don't know if they were terrorists in training. But his/her objection to their immigration related to the fact that we didn't need them. America has never been about, "You can come in if you can demonstrate usable skills." That's the point of my objection to #240.

248 nonic  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 7:12:55am

#242 razorbacker

You raise interesting points.

We might (unfortunately) find out if/when Iran attacks another country.

Which I think they will.

But my general scenario requires the initial premise that Western countries re-assert their own nationalities.

I.e., that the Germans (Dutch, French, Danes, whoever) declare if you're not going to actually be German, then get out.

Will this ever happen? Can it happen?

I don't know.

I think probably the governments are too weak to do it.

Which is why the people will have to fight a civil war.

249 JHW  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 7:20:19am

bill , fair comment, but I`m sure you`re aware that the lines on the Statue of Liberty are from a poem by Emma Lazarus, not out of the Constitution or Declaration of Independence(not that I`m asserting that`s what you meant)
I imagine most people would have no problem with immigration with immigration in a controlled manner, not willy-nilly with slight regard for it`s impact on the country at large.Not all immigrants are yearning to breathe free, a good many are economic migrants.The thing is we are not even having a national discussion about what kind of immigration policy we should have, and for sure any country has the right to consider the needs of its citizens first. This is not the same as ending immigration. Anyway, I`m not trying to pick an argument, but the lines from the Lazerus poem are constantly used to stifle any critcism of immigration policy.The choices are not either no immigration or a lawful, rational, controlled policy that admits migrants in some kind of way that takes into account the needs of the country,and also retains hope for those that are genuinly looking for a place to live in freedom.

250 nonic  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 7:21:51am

#247 billhedrick

America has never been about, "You can come in if you can demonstrate usable skills."

Maybe it ought to be.

At some point, we really can't take in all the tired, poor, and needy.

I think it was Somalis, actually, that some Maine town mayor made a statement saying, look, fellas, it's not that you're not welcome here, but your numbers are straining our limits.

Huge influxes of needy Mexicans are bankrkupting southern border towns.

Wouldn't it be better to help these people establish productive societies in their own countries?

251 billhedrick  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 7:33:45am

Nonic, JHW, these are valid points to consider. And in thinking about the impact of immigration here in St. Paul, I see the SE Asians running businesses and the Somalis working in service industries.I wonder if that's more a product of culture and the fact that the Laotians, Vietnamese and Hmong are momre "americanized" to start with. The important thing we need to do that Eurabia is not doing is to encourage and reward assimilation and ambition. What I hope for Hmong-Americans and Somali-Americans is that within a generation they will be simply Americans, as Irish-Americans are, celebrating their old culture while being first Americans. We as a country still have the chance to have that, France doesn't, and it may be too late for Germany as well.

252 nonic  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 7:40:20am

JHW
billhedrick

I think economic opportunity is a legitimate goal of freedom.

As long as the opportunity sought is to work and be productive and contribute.

Not just to collect welfare.

But would it be such an awful thing if there were a moratorium on immigration?

It seems to me that the governments in countries that people emigrate from get a pass on continuing to be corrupt, continuing to under-serve their citizens, continuing to be the pest-holes that people want to flee --- precisely because there's someplace better to go to.

253 nonic  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 7:45:22am

#251 bill
JHW

The important thing we need to do ... is to encourage and reward assimilation and ambition. What I hope for Hmong-Americans and Somali-Americans is that within a generation they will be simply Americans, as Irish-Americans are, celebrating their old culture while being first Americans.

With this I absolutely 100% agree.

..to encourage and reward assimilation and ambition...

254 billhedrick  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 7:47:41am

A moratoriam on immigration. Considering that we are at war, yup, I'd agree with that from the countries we are at war with, and their allied partners and friends. American culture is always evolving, and I would hate to see that end, but it has to stay American. Salsa yes! Sharia no!

255 JHW  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 7:49:29am

bill, I live in coastal Washington, we have a very large number of Southeast Asian immigrants who live here. I helped a few of them settle in when they fled the aftermath of the Vietnam war. They have turned out to be model, productive citizens, low users of the social welfare net and generally an asset to the communities. What is terribly sad to me is these people, who were genuinely looking to breathe free and in many cases fought alongside US servicemen, are nearly all literate and respect education, have been devastated by uncontrolled illegal immigration.They mostly work in the seafood industry but cannot, at even low wages, compete against illegals from mostly Central Anerica, that work off the books and pay no attention to US labor laws.I could care less what countries migrants come from,as long as they are lawful, and not subsersive to the very country that lets them in.But at some point we`re going to have to start having a nationl consensus about the kind and size of immigration we as a country can deal with, and we certainly shouldn`t allow the wants and desires of immigrants to dominate the discussion, regardless of its impact onpeople in the US legally.Anyway, thanks for responding,we need this kind of discussion nationally.

256 billhedrick  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 7:56:30am

Thank YOU JHW and nonic! This has been a very civil discussion and I think we have come to concensus. Regrettably this seems rare online.

257 nonic  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 8:00:54am

#255 JHW

cannot, at even low wages, compete against illegals from mostly Central Anerica, that work off the books and pay no attention to US labor laws

This is where I think the employers should get the crack-down.

It's up the them, not the illegals, to obey the law and pay the proper taxes.

If every employer would obey the law, the problem of illegal immigration might be cut in half over night.

Time for my nap, guys. Thanks for the discussion.

:-)

258 SpiritOf1683  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 9:54:24am

#42 Godfrey

Educated? Any Muslim woman who wears a veil wants throwing out of Europe. They represent the sort of oppression that we're trying to prevent in the West. If they want to wear a veil, they should be despatched to Pakistan or Saudi Arabia. Before we know it, our women will be we wearing hijabs and burkas.

259 Londoner  Sat, Dec 3, 2005 1:57:34pm

thinkingmom

I haven't read Hitchins' book, but you're right about the elites.

The problem seems to me one of class. Most journalists are middle/upper class. Their contact wtih the masses is slight. Most live in nice leafy areas, send their kids to good schools, have private insurance and are pretty much well protected.

A few years ago there was a mugging epidemic and the government came down hard, handing out 4 year sentences on a first offence. I think this was one of the few crimes the upper classes could not protect its self from.

The same is true in France, and I assume much of Europe.

America I think is very different, far more egalitarian. In America where everything from your local school board, to judge to rat catcher is elected, you can throw out your representitives at will. We can't do this here.

Here in Europe where few if any posts are elected, where local govt has very little power, and now even national govts are usurped by the mostly unelected and endemically corrupt Eu, we can't throw out our representatives. Only every 5 years at a general election.

We are sleepwalking into disaster, as in 1939. But the people who represent us, and the jouralists who write for us, are by and large protected, comfortable and fiercely Left wing.

Little wonder, perhaps, that Hitchins has made his home in the US where free media thrives. Here in the BBC dominated UK, he would probably find himself isolated and often un-employed.


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