'Scuse me, a test. Changing over to Firefox.

Give the Iraqis about 200 years, maybe they'll be as humane as us by then.

HAHAHA! That is hilarious!...and yet very sad. :(

But we are held to a different standard. The standard set by moonbats.

Ya mean the panties weren't so bad, after all?

Miss the puppet show?

well, it looks like Iraqis are going to get "security" afterall.

But, but, but...the Americans might forget the cloth and touch a koran with their nasty infidel hands.

Now that's torture.

I shouldn't laugh, but -- Hahaha.

Um, no.

“The Americans were better than the Iraqis. They treated us better,” said Khalid Alaani

Well Khalid, there's plenty of room in Gitmo...

The witness said that even in the thieves’ section prisoners were being treated badly. ”Someone was shouting ‘Please help us, we want the human rights officers, we want the Americans to come back’," he said.

Not only are the Americans not coming back, but Amnesty Intl. and the rest of "human rights" industry could give a crap about what happens to you now. Welcome back to the third world. Enjoy your islamic paradise.

*whine* Bush and Rumsfeld (ooo ick coooties) must have personally trained the Iraqis to torture. *whine*

/St. Andrew

But really, seems like we should have left a oversight team there. Baby steps.

One can't help chuckling, but this is really very frightening. If this is true, how well are we training the Iraqis?

Ha ha!/Nelson

Won't hear a peep from Human Rights Watch or the Amnesty International about this. They don't care what countries do, unless it's the U.S. or our allies. You guys are on your own, sad as that is.

This story doesn't surprise me at all. I'm sure many Iraqis appreciate the infidel troops in their midst, but getting your news from the LLL media you'd never know it.

If anyone knows where I can get "Support Our Troops" bumper stickers in French (i.e. regarding Canadian forces in Afghanistan) please drop me a line.

MK

Nice to see the Telegraph got another opportunity to recirculate the prisoner-on-a-leash photo again. It had been WEEKS since I saw that photograph. It was a bit of a stretch, but they managed to kick America in the groin with the same nauseating pic.

This is awful.

#15 marjoriemoon

You really expected anything different? You can't undo a culture by training. That's the big error the left keeps making.

What no knickers on the head? Now that my mohammedan friend is "real" torture! Where are asshat international when you need them?

But will Human Rights Watch and the other such organizations complain, report, or in anyway object?

Heh. ™

#14 tigger2005

No, our forefathers did not write their constitution. The Iraqis did one better for their Islamic Republic and based it on sharia. In Iraq sharia it is.

food rations cut to just rice and water and no air conditioning.

No airconditioning? No television also I supose, no gym, or other recreation?
The horror, the horror!
Snap out out of it will you. Only in western civ and only for the last 35 years there has been something like 'prisoners rights'.
/real world, not kindergarten, prison = punishment

humpty dumpty --of course not, anyone who is inclined to "leak" pictures of any abuse wouldn't because they would be shot and their family would be shot.

Whistleblower's just aren't appreciated anymore.

Wow. I'm speechless.

humpty dumpty was pushed

... Love the nic!

I imagine there is a majority of Iraqis that want to be able to walk the streets without being murdered. I don't think it can come soon enough for many of them and if their politicians and police believe they have to torture to provide it, they are going to provide it. War is hell. God forgive us.

omg, no more toga parties?

Geez Louise!

I'm horrified. (not)

Inside the 100-yard long cell block the smell of excrement was overpowering.

That's typical of the mideast. I know someone who was arrested in Riyadh, and while I didn't go to the jail, I heard a description. The smell was overpowering three blocks away.

Hate to break the news to you guys, but that's absolutely typical for most of the world. Nothing unusual about any of this. Which is what AI and co. will say if asked why they don't make an issue of this.

Is this a preview of things to come, when the US finally does pull out of Iraq? Guess the horrors then won't be news either, it's just how those foreigners always act.

I don't want to call it schadenfreude, but this sure is a "gee whiz, no kidding" moment.

Screaming over women's panties on their heads? Nope. Over getting their fingernails pulled out. Be careful what you wish for Mohammed.

Malkin’s site says that “The Path To 9/11″ has been cut down by a full hour to make room for President Bush’s speech Monday night. Wonder what they’re going to cut out.

I knew it would be Bushs fault.
Bastid messing up Republican lies.

/That last sentence gave me a tongue lash.

OT

Sorry, but what does the Heh with the trademark mean? I see it on here a lot, what am I missing?

Thanks

-The Tuna

Could be we will start seeing a lot less terrorism (and crime in general) in Iraq now that they know they can expect worse than panties on the head if they get caught.

#38 tigger2005, exactly!

.

“The Americans were better than the Iraqis. They treated us better,”

And that's why the attacks have gone on until today.

Like it or dislike it.

Now they have nice culturally sensitive peoples of color and race and Religion of Peace to guide the miscreants in the prison instead of the rascist imperialist sons of dogs and monkey infidels Americans...

NOT!

No pictures are going to come out with the Iraqis now in charge...hehehe...

These murdering terrorist scum should all be sent from Gitmo to Abu Grab in proparations for mass hangings and then the trials...

# 37 Tuna

Just a Charles thing. It's sorta a "Well what did you expect?", sorta Schaedenfreude, sort cynical "Heh."

My uncle was in a camp in Poland during WW2. Trust me, he would have LOVED to have had women's panties put on his head as a substitute torture. He came out weighing 89 pounds.

When will the Moonbat Nation figure out that nearly all the Americans trying to keep the lid on things are doing an astonishingly good job?

“I am sure someone was being beaten, they were screaming like they were being hit,” the witness reported. “I felt scared, I was asking what was happening in the terrorist section. ”I heard shouting, like someone had a hot iron on their body, screams. The officer said they were just screaming by themselves. I was hearing the screams throughout the visit.“

OH REAllY?

You dont think the Iraqs whom have lost many friends to the terrorists bombings every day would harm terrorist prisoners do you?

/What about the IRC, and The Laws the Supremes of the Court passed?

ACLU we need your help.

Personally, for the worst criminals, say capital level offenses, I think the kind of conditions described are appropriate. Honestly I'm of the school of thought that the threat of dumping someone in a pit like that (combined with hard labor) for (a inevitably short remaining) life for capital crime would have greater deterrence than execution does. Moreso if the endless appeal cycle was eliminated given no execution and the indicators that a fair segment of the population is psychologically/morally incapable of finding someone guilty when the punishment is death -- even though they don't disqualify themselves from such juries.

Not that the west would tolerate those conditions even for the very worst capital crimes. Pity.

But we know that non-western cultures simply accept that prison is like that. Period.

So this shouldn't be any surprise for anyone. Yet it is.

And no, the MSM will be in no hurry to remind anyone that we provided virtual resort living to those prisoners in comparison.

If you think groups like Amnesty and HRW won't have something to say about this, you are mistaken. It will be pinned on the US.

Surprise surprise

The telegraph can't help but throw this (see below) into the same article that alleges real torture and describes some actual humiliation (unless of course you prefer being treated worse than an animal to being put in pig piles).

Abu Ghraib became synonymous with abuse after shocking pictures were published in 2004 showing prisoners being tortured and humiliated, galvanising opposition to the US presence in Iraq.

Be careful what you wish for Mohammed.

Yep. That will teach them to trust AI and the leftist media.

Thanks Tigger2005- I finally get it now!

-The Tuna

heh.

It's obvious the PC Nazis haven't taken over the Iraqiis in Iraq, huh?

# 33 Earth2moonbat:

Hate to break the news to you guys, but that's absolutely typical for most of the world. Nothing unusual about any of this. Which is what AI and co. will say if asked why they don't make an issue of this.

&

# 34 Drewydd:

Is this a preview of things to come, when the US finally does pull out of Iraq? Guess the horrors then won't be news either, it's just how those foreigners always act.

The racism of lowered expectations. Or, in moonbat speak: How dare the imperialist US impose its values on the rest of the world? Those same moonbats will, of course, have their heads firmly in the sand at this news, and deny, with conviction, the situation, or somehow blame the US for not training the new guards properly, or somesuch nonsense.

Welcome to another Third World Islamic shithole (literally, apparently).

#38 tigger2005

That's the grim reality. It's easy to be the big macho man terrorist gangsta if you know the worst that can happen is panties on the head. If you have to worry about serious pain, that changes things. Even crazy people respond to pain.

Abu Boo Boo?, Abu Boo Hoo?, not unexpected,
Occupying Powers ARE generally held to higher standards than home governments in this regard,
forgetting for the moment that the US was the occupying power. Back to business as usual.
Moe Katz - Hope you like Firefox - just went to
2.0 Beta 2 last night, by the way do you live in Pierre Saada's riding?

-S-

ggt...

You`re right. No new pics are likely to leak out of Abu now. I suppose we can look forward to seeing Linsey England`s smiling face plastered all over our news periodicals with each new Iraqi prison guard scandal/rumor.

Chicken Kiev...

:) Thanks!

44

Moonbat Nation
I likes it,
good description.

And no more Khalid Jasim Nohe's being dismissed by judges to fight our troops another day.

#44 Candygram

When will the Moonbat Nation figure out that nearly all the Americans trying to keep the lid on things are doing an astonishingly good job?

Never. Because they're a group of narcissists who really, deep down, don't care about other people.

cub scout meetings are over. ha ha ha

Hmmm, panties over the head vs burned with an iron vs having a woman put me on a leash to crawl around on all fours vs finger nails removed with pliers.

Gee that is so hard. Are they clean panties?
Is the woman making me crawl around cute?
How hot is the iron?
Are they just cutting my nails a little too close?

How much am I into unusual sexual practices? How much am I into intense pain?

If I were so inclined which, if I was so inclined to participate in, would I pay for?

So many decisions and so little time.

If you think groups like Amnesty and HRW won't have something to say about this, you are mistaken. It will be pinned on the US.

If they do, they'll make a (even greater) laughingstock of themselves. No downside.

Sounds like they would prefer to be stripped naked and having a dog bark at them instead of what they have now.

Don't know what you've got, til its gone.

I'm with you, Salem. But, when has being a laughing stock ever stopped these organizations from their inane BS?

Senator John Rockefeller could not be reached for comment.

#58 Earth2moonbat

That is a point that cannot be overemphasized. The narcissistic left doesn't love children as they noisely claim either. Children in harms way are just propaganda pawns to them.

Mr. Rumsfield,

Time to transfer some prisoners from Cuba to the death pens more humane prisons of their own countries.

I knew someday the Iraqs would take over,
Crimes and terrorism will drop like a rock,
cant afford to get caught.

You know what's sad is that there are over two dozen AMERICAN soldiers doing time in US military prisons for "torturing" Iraqi terror subjects by putting panties over their heads, putting hoods over their heads and other "obscene torture methods". Anywhere from a year to fourteen years.

THAT is what is obscene. The treatment of our own soldiers in this whole Abu Ghraib nonsense.

Now that we're out of that little hole, the Iraqis will go back to their tried and true methods of REAL torture. It's who they are, and it's in their blood. And that's the truth.

#38

Tigger 2005

Could be we will start seeing a lot less terrorism (and crime in general) in Iraq now that they know they can expect worse than panties on the head if they get caught.

Excellent point. Even so,tell piglet to maintain a low profile if he visits Iraq.

#67 6Patrick6

THAT is what is obscene. The treatment of our own soldiers in this whole Abu Ghraib nonsense.

You may say it loud.

THAT is what is obscene. The treatment of our own soldiers in this whole Abu Ghraib nonsense.

And they will spend September Eleven in jail !

How hot is the iron?
Are they just cutting my nails a little too close?

How much am I into unusual sexual practices? How much am I into intense pain?

The Democrats and John Murtha are planning an
Investigation.

#65 Roger

Children in harms way are just propaganda pawns to them.

In several different contexts.

Paleos said the same thing about Israel and Jordan.

Prisoner abuse brings me no joy. It's sick, no matter who's doing it.

If these people are truly evil and horrible and dangerous, they should be on trial and disposed of processed accordingly; if they're innocent they should be released.

Warehousing prisoners is an enormous liability. You have like-minded freaks using them as bargaining chips (hostage trades). Alive, all they do is complain and make up all kinds of allegations. Regardless, if they are abused, it only lessens the credibility of their captors. It takes a pretty twisted mindset to want to abuse and torture people in the first place.

The witness said...

And, just who is this witness? A credible source? A sympathizer? Someone who works in the prison?

Sorry, but this whole story stinks like a whorehouse at low tide. I really hope it's not true. It's very dishearterning to see these "liberated" Iraqis reverting to the stone age.

Killing bad guys is one thing, torturing people is inhuman.

They should tell the Abu Ghraib detainees that they can spill everthing they know to a CIA agent in exchange for being a US prisoner again. Then threaten other US detainees by saying they are going to be exchanged to Abu Ghraib unless they cooperate. No more stupid stunts like attacking the guards or saying their Koran got flushed down the toilet, or they get exchanged.

Too bad the Red Cross can't visit Abu Ghraib anymore; they'd see what real atrocities are.

Fellow Lizards

The latest Mark Steyn.

I suppose my I'll-never-forget-where-I-was recollections are pretty typical:

I switched on the TV. But, even in the midst of unprecedented forms of mass slaughter, humdrum routine goes on for the rest of us: I was having some furniture delivered that morning, and the guy interrupted me to ask where I wanted one of the pieces to go, and when I turned back to the screen only one of the smoking towers was still there. "What happened?" I said. "It fell down," the delivery guy shrugged, and ambled back to his work.

He was sort of right. It fell down, but it burned for another 100 days, as America's rage did -- for some. For others, it was already fading, the "day that everything changed" already lapsing back into the feeble passivity of one of those weird one-time-only "tragedies," after which everything goes back to the way it was.

OT...

North Korea ready to test a nuke?

If this happens, it will be time for Japan and Taiwan to become nuclear-armed.

#60 Perplexed

AWESOME POST!

-The Tuna

#54 Dr. Shalit

I'm up in Quebec City, not Saada's neck of the woods. We have the big Valcartier military base and, come to think of it I could probably sell a shitload of "Appuyez Nos Troupes" (support our troops) bumper stickers up here if I had them made up.

I had to hide the Internet Explorer shortcut to force myself to launch Firefox as automatically and reflexively as I normally launch I.E. The habit seems to be getting ingrained, and a big part of that has been to set up bookmarks and toolbars to my own taste. It's a great browser!

So you recommend the 2.0 beta, I take it? I.E. 6 on Win-2K/XP-SP1 has gotten buggy since the August security update and they haven't fixed it properly, so the browser change will probably be permanent.

MK

36 ibmkeyboard
I think it's just been rearranged. ABC is broadcasting 3 hours tonight (8-11pm) and 1 hour tomorrow (8-9pm)

You can just hear them screaming !Wheres our goddess Lynndie England when we need her!

I remember one prisoner said he would rather be dead, than be humilated with the panties and women guards looking at his body.

Guess what Bro.

An Iraq guard named Moho Brutus is your new Cell Doorman,

Bend over bro. it is time to be examined.

#55 humpty

Thanks. I get upset with the moonbats who were all over Abu Gharib --how terrible our troops/policies/administration is/are. The fact that we have whistleblowers at all is a pretty damn amazing thing, IMHO.

Only shows how true we are to our ideals.

Piggybacking on the above, this is what I've always said:

Most Sunnis were, are now, and forever shall be stoopid, stoopid, STOOPID. They despise us, set off IED's against our troops, and savagely mutilate our men whom they capture. Yet they'll be the first to whine, beg, plead, and scream for us to stay if or when we start pulling out in a big way. All their flowery, vainglorious jihadist and nationalist proclamations won't count for s*** when there are Kurdish and Shiite knives at their throats. And they're smart enough on that score to know it.

Payback is a motherf***er, ain't it?

#57 Roger

From that link

Iraqi Army and Police officers see many Americans as too soft, especially when it comes to dealing with terrorists. The Iraqis who seethe over the shooting of Kurilla know that the cunning fury of Jihadists is congenite. Three months of air-conditioned reflection will not transform terrorists into citizens.

You never hear our press and MSM report anything like that.

Don't it always seem to go, that you don't know what you got till its gone.

Joni Mitchell

How many front page headlines at the New York Times will we see about this?

Well, none is a good estimate. I found 15 hits in the last week searching "Abu Ghraib" at the NYT website, but none of the 15 mentioned this story. No its all more of the same libberish crap like..

...The hunt for al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden has gone cold and critics say the invasion of Iraq and scandals like U.S. soldiers' abuse of inmates at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison have swollen the ranks of potential terrorists...

Shitzberger's rag does not like printing stories that belie Moonbat groupthink.

Hey prisoners? Sure does suck to be you right now doesn't it?

*heh*

If you were holding back before, you won't be "brother" by the time they get around to you.

Still think America and Americans are the great Satan?

I watched "V for Vendetta" with my son last weekend. In the (pretty horrible movie IMHO) the heroine said she was torured. My son repeated the line when trying to explain (which is pretty much impossible) the movie to someone else.

I made a point to explain to him that there are a lot of people trying to get us to believe that what happened in the movie was torture, but it is not.

Sorry, giving someone a 3 minute swirlie is not torture.

#41 Poitiers-Lepanto 9/10/2006 10:15AM PDT

“The Americans were better than the Iraqis. They treated us better,”

And that's why the attacks have gone on until today.

Like it or dislike it.

B I N G O

# 33 Earth2moonbat:

Hate to break the news to you guys, but that's absolutely typical for most of the world. Nothing unusual about any of this. Which is what AI and co. will say if asked why they don't make an issue of this.

Which makes one wonder...
Where are all the admonitions for the rest of the world from A.I. and Human Rights Watch? It just convinces one more than ever that these are not "human rights" organizations. They are organizations determined to see the downfall of America through any means they have at their disposal. If that means using our sense of decency, fairness, and justice against us, that just makes the victory more delicious.

Some peoples reaction to this in the thread is just creepy I personally don't take any joy hearing that common criminals are being mistreated, or the possibility that the Iraqi torture rooms are re-opening, this was the behavior we wanted to stop.

Just because Iraqi's say they prefer the Americans doesn't mean that the stuff that went on there is excused, not by a long shot.

“The Americans were better than the Iraqis. They treated us better,”

Why do I think this is code for: "The Infidels are weak."?

The difference between the Iraqi guards and the American guards is about 1400 years of culture. You can't change that mindset in a couple of years.

Hey, Lizards...

Video of Iran's test missile called fake

U.S. military intelligence has determined that a video released by the Iranian government purporting to show a test of a new submarine missile is bogus, three Pentagon officials confirmed...
But U.S. intelligence officers analyzed the plume of smoke from the missile and determined it matched a video of an earlier Chinese test.

Phake Photos, Phake News, Phakirs

since the iraqi regime was installed by the us, and being touted by Bush as a "democracy" I'm sure the NYT can squeeze a couple hundred more stories out of this.

That being said, the irony of it all is indeed enjoyable.

#90 xenophobic...

It's a free country honey, get creeped out if you want to.

Me? I like my comforts where I can find them... and anything that makes my enemy more uncomfortable in what his belief systems is is A-okay with me.

Too bad the panties they had on their heads weren't hearts and flowers.

# 90 xenophobic:

Just because Iraqi's say they prefer the Americans doesn't mean that the stuff that went on there is excused, not by a long shot.

So what "stuff ... went on there," in your words?

Sad. Would be interesting to know if this sort of thing goes on in Kurdistan? Or is this happening only in the non-Kurd region of Iraq? (I think Graib is in the non-Kurdish area...) There's a good article from reason about the Kurdish region of Iraq.

The Kurds go their own way

Not everyone in Iraq are muslim fundamentalists.

My hope is that these strong punishments are not a prelude to full-on Sharia law... but knowing Islam now, the answer sadly is yes.

I wonder if the puerile left even has a clue. Look at the discrepancy between these 2 paragraphs in the same article.

An independent witness who went into Abu Ghraib this week told The Sunday Telegraph that screams were coming from the cell blocks housing the terrorist suspects. Prisoners released from the jail this week spoke of routine torture of terrorism suspects and on Wednesday, 27 prisoners were hanged in the first mass execution since the overthrow of Saddam Hussein's regime.

Abu Ghraib became synonymous with abuse after shocking pictures were published in 2004 showing prisoners being tortured and humiliated, galvanising opposition to the US presence in Iraq.

Does the word “torture” have different definitions according to who is running a prison?

Straight Scoop About Iraqi Military From Onsite Marine.

Hello everyone,

Tomorrow will be our 6 month mark, and then only 6 more months to go! Everything is fine and works in cycles. Some weeks see more activity than others based on the insurgents cycles of regrouping and refitting.

The first province was turned over to Iraqi security forces and the goal is for all the provinces to be turned over to the ISF by the end of 07 with the exception of Anbar and Baghdad. Baghdad is the heart of the Sunni Triangle and Anbar is the primary route of the "rat lines", Iraq's Ho Chi Min Trail where the foreign fighters, weapons, and supplies are making their way into the country.

Our new Iraqi battalion commander is turning out to be alright. He punched one of his warrant officers because he was allowing his men to live like pigs (in the Iraqi military it is OK for officers to strike their men, there is no official military justice system in the Iraqi army). He has denied some of his officers leave to make them do their jobs and is docking pay from soldiers who violate rules.

Our old battalion commander is trying to evade his investigation about his skimming money from Iraqi army food contracts and the soldiers themselves.

The brigade general is also involved in the corruption...which is why nothing is happening. Our executive officer returned after 6 months of paid sick leave only to find is dealings in the scam are under investigation, so yesterday he went back on sick leave, all approved by the general

The biggest lesson I have learned over 6 months here is that the Iraqi culture is incapable of sustaining a western style military. The Arabic style military it can function with is distasteful to western soldiers: officers who hit their men, officer and senior enlisted men who regularly steal from their men, using leadership to openly grant yourself more food and standard of living items while your men go without, taking food from civilians while searching their houses, taking food from crops while searching for weapons caches, and all the while professing to be men of God.

Not to mention the Iraqi culture is so absolutely LAZY that nothing gets done unless we force them to do it.

More of our soldiers went AWOL, new food supplies came in yesterday from Ramadi but were grossly insufficient, new soldiers arrived but their initial military training is substandard and you can tell they are really just here for a paycheck. Iraqi army communications gear is insufficient and not encrypted (we actually have had unidentified people calling on the Iraqi frequencies requesting tactical information...and the Iraqis actually give it to them without knowing who it is).

So after 6 months we've:

- taught them techniques for planning operations...they won't do it.
- shown them how to conduct weapons sustainment ranges...they won't do it.
- we've shown them how to conduct convoys...they won't do it.
- we've taught them moral and ethical behavior required of soldiers...they won't do it.
- we've taught them how to manage logistics...they won't do it.
- we've taught them personnel and administrative management...they won't do it.
- we've taught them how to operate tactically...they won't do it.
- we've taught them how to sustain the life support systems on the camp...they won't do it.

Basically we have taught them how to be a self sufficient battalion, but unless the Marines do it for them, they won't do anything. They ALWAYS revert back to the "Iraqi way" when we are not around and that involves DESTROYING and WASTING everything they get their hands on.

But other than all that they say they are "dedicated" to the future of Iraq...should be a bright and wonderful future.

So that's about it. Hope all is well, the weather here has cooled down, it's only 110 this morning. Take care and talk to you all later.

---A Marine in Iraq

THE ARAB "MILITARY CULTURE"

OT
As I'm sure most of you know the ABC movie Path to 9/11 has already aired in Australia. Hewitt has a telephonic review posted:

"Don't miss it, my Freeper friends. It's no wonder the Clintonistas have thrown everything at ABC/Disney, in a desperate effort to have the miniseries cancelled. Documents exactly what we've been following over the years on FR. Brave agents on the ground in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Dedicated people at Langley and the J. Edgar Hoover building, working around the clock to capture or kill Bin Laden, Ramzi Yusef et al. And all their efforts derailed by Clinton appointees like Berger and Allbright- selfishly putting their own careers (and covering their asses) before protecting the USA. The line of the show delivered by the actor playing Masood, brave and charismatic leader of the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan: "

[Link: hughhewitt.townhall.com...]

I've had panties on my head and a great time.
Whats the big deal...;)

-dreamhat on-

How many front page headlines will we see at the New York Times about this?

None, because NYT's staff has been transferred to cellblock "A" at Abu Ghraib.

-dreamhat off-

Hey, you know, this is all Bush's fault!

There never was any torture in Iraqi prisons before Bush lied and people died!

Just ask Ned "cut and run" Lamont!
:-)

#95 The Albatross
You'd have loved Saddam then, he made your "enemy" real uncomfortable in the prison system.

90 xenophobic

Agreeing with the word creepy.

If your buddies were killing my friends in the field and you were holding information... I might let a dog bite you to get it too.

I'm saying I'm entitled to my opinion, keep your character assessments to your self sister.

#93 solomonpanting

Not that we need any more threads, but that's worthy of one.

#15 marjoriemoon:
doesn't matter. the iraqis are going to do what THEY think works.
i'm like many of the posters here, shouldn't laugh, but it's funny in a way.
and no, as someone posted, there will be no more human rights activists showing up. they don't care anymore. there are no americans to blame for anything at abu graib.

grayp

Disturbing. How far can it be generalized?

#99 grayp

When your entire (Islamic) civilization is built upon the life of a lazy, lying, theiving, child-raping, murdering, psychotic whose goal in creating a "religion" was money and political power, what do you expect? To think that the US could foster democracy in such a place is quite naive. Our main goal should be setting up a forward base of operations for the other third-world Islamic toilets in the area, and acting as fly paper to the wanna-be martyrs. The more of those we can smear across the desert sands means less we have to clean off the streets of suburban America.

I absolutely detest the fact that good, decent Americans are having to sacrifice to do these things. But, as always, it must be our good men and women who bleed and die as most in the world don't even care.

we want the Americans to come back

Sorry, Buddy. A bunch of pussy Americans want to cut and run.

What? No one has linked to this Amnesty International article?

Thousand of detainees denied their basic rights

A prize goes to everyone who said the US would be pinned with this. We didn't prevent it, don't ya know.

#111 Celissa

Prepare to be chastized by troll Affinity for saying mean, not very nice, and unpleasant things. What a buzz harsh.

President Bush should Pardon all of Our soldiers that were involved in this Media Rush to Judgement.
Either Pardon,
or reduction to Months instead of Years.

#108 Earth2moonbat

Maybe when Charles returns from his bike ride.

To think that the US could foster democracy in such a place is quite naive.

I think you're selling some Iraqis short.

#112 W-lover

I hadn't thought of that aspect, but you're probably right. This was probably hastened by the same donx who were so critical of the American administration of the prison. They can thank their buddys in the the cut-and-run party.

Hint: The party who claims to care about the little guy doesn't.

E2m-

but you're probably right

I'll try not letting it go to my head.

;)

Does anybody know if 'The Path to 9/11' (assuming ABC doesn't cancel at the last minute) starts at 5:00 Pacific time or 8:00?
I know it's 8:00 EST, but don't know when it will air in the pacific time zone.

Sorry to be wildly off topic.

Moe and the Rest of the Lizardoid World -

Have had and used Firefox since release. Was actually enjoying using IE 7 occaisionally 'til the August "update" - got really buggy with IE.
Firefox, Netscape 8/8.1 work ok in the "Firefox" mode, as does Opera if you like them. Running XP Home w/SP2. By the way not really impressed with WMP 11 either, liked the look of 10 better and as for buying stuff from that MTV subsidiary -fuhgeddaboutit.

-S-

Path to 9/11...

If ABC really wanted to get Clinton's panties in a knot, they'd make a book based on Jayna Davis' book The Third Terrorist.

I bet they miss Lynndie England.

And Khalid Alaani, who was also picked up in Ramadi suspected of involvement in Sunni terrorism, said: "We preferred the Americans. We asked to move with them to Baghdad airport because we knew the treatment would be changed because we know what the Iraqis are. When the Americans left everything changed."

Does this mean he is not an Iraqi?

Where's the Democrats from Congress to investigate this? Oops, there's no America-bashing involved, so it's not going to happen.

#76 Greg in Seattle

N Korea ready to test nuke?

I talked to a buddy who had been in Japan a couple weeks ago, asked him how long it would take the Japanese to develop nuclear weapons. I said I figured a couple months, he said more like three weeks.
IMO - a hunch , nothing to base it on- Taiwan already has nukes. If you were them, wouldn't you?

From London Times via a link in American Thinker

Can the West defeat the Islamist threat? Here are ten reasons why not
[Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]

5) The fifth disablement is to be found in the confusion of “progressives” about the Islamic advance. With their political and moral bearings lost since the defeat of the “socialist project”, many on the Left have only the fag-end of anti-colonial positions on which to take their stand. To attribute the West’s problems to our colonial past contains some truth. But it is again to misunderstand the inner strength of Islam’s revival, which is owed not to victimhood but to advancing confidence in its own belief system.

Moreover, to Islam’s further advantage, it has led most of today’s “progressives” to say little, or even to keep silent, about what would once have been regarded as the reactionary aspects of Islam: its oppressive hostility to dissent, its maltreatment of women, its supremacist hatred of selected out-groups such as Jews and gays, and its readiness to incite and to use extremes of violence against them. Mein Kampf circulates in Arab countries under the title Jihadi.

What a legacy for Clinton- a former President telling a TV network what to air. Maybe he'll get another citation in Bartlett's for this.

OT but finally the threat has been openly stated by the no other then the Secretary genetral of the MCB.

Media 'contributing to rise of Islamophobia'By David Harrison

Media 'contributing to rise of Islamophobia'
By David Harrison
(Filed: 10/09/2006)

Britain could face the threat of two million home-grown Islamic terrorists, says a senior Muslim leader.

Muhammad Abdul Bari: 'We want to isolate the bad people and put them in the dock. But we all have to work together to do that'

Muhammad Abdul Bari, the secretary-general of the Muslim Council of Britain, fears that continued negative attitudes towards people of his faith could provoke a vast and angry backlash.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Muhammad Abdul Bari, the secretary-general of the Muslim Council of Britain, fears that continued negative attitudes towards people of his faith could provoke a vast and angry backlash.

In other words if you Kaffirs dont think nice of us, we'll bomb you.

He did not understand why "the whole of our diverse community" was being targeted. "When the IRA was blowing people up, the entire Catholic population of Britain was not demonised, so why is it happening to the Muslim community?"

1. Because the worldwide Catholic community was not waging a worldwide Jihad.

2. The Pope condemned the IRA.

3. The IRA had no goal of subjugating or destroying Britain.

4. The IRA did not have any goal to install sharria in Britain.

5.The IRA was not bombing airplanes worldwide. It had a specific enemy, and that was that.

6. The IRA's goals were political and negotiable, unlike the Muslim jehadis.

7. The Irish were profiled at airports, both here and in the USA. Yet the Irish community did not moan and whinge but accepted the neccesity of such procedures, despite the fact that the IRA did not fly airplanes into buildings.

He called for more Muslim representation in the police force, Parliament and other areas of public life. "Young Muslims need role models to show them they can play a part in British society."

He wants to Muslims to be given special consideration to become MPs in safe seats, senior positions in the police force and judiciary. Which is another way of instituting sharia.

I dont think that the Hindu, Sikh and the Aftro-Carribean community are going to trust a Muslim in position of authority.

"Young Muslims need role models to show them they can play a part in British society."

You will get your role models when your community itself creates them. No one can give Muslim role models except Muslims. The role model that you have created is the suicide bomber.

In this whinging, whinning, and at the same time threatening epistle from Bari, he merely confirms the 'suicide bomber' ethic of not just the community but himself as well.

#110 godfrey

Disturbing. How far can it be generalized?

Pretty far, I gather. It's consistent w/what our adopted soldier in Kirkuk tells us and consistent w/someone in Baghdad I've communicated with. Altho, the Kurds may be an exception.

#77 Tuna

So, how do you think T.O. will do today?

P.S. Play Julius Jones more --he's a starter on my fantasy team

#80 After sex game with BIG Mo , Misstress Lindy must look real good now .

re #129

The link for the Sunday Telegraph is

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

DP111

If it's true that the Brits are never more than 2 pints away from a riot, you guys better start drinkin'.

Hmmm, it's not something to chuckle about.

I wrote about the Iraqi government's Torture Houses and Rape Centers here.

Another three are in largely Shi'ite regions of the country, the general said. He said there are also two detention centers for women in Baghdad, where "female prisoners are tortured and raped." Here, with the Raping and Torturing of female prisoners, we see the clear influence of the Iranians, exporting their own sadistic penal policies. It certainly takes a strong stomach to wade through these Shia miseries.

Fortunately, for some of these prisoners, the US came to the rescue:

U.S. troops raided the secret Jadriya facility in mid-November and found 166 prisoners, many emaciated and bearing obvious signs of torture. An American raid... on another facility in Baghdad found 625 prisoners huddled in overcrowded and degraded conditions, including at least 13 who required hospitalization. - Abu Gharib My Ass...

This is what happens when you have a large
group of Shia and Kurds in charge of the government looking to settle scores with the Sunni that oppressed them, besides the usual sectarian conflicts, and low standards Mideastern Human Rights.

Of course, things weren't helped a great deal by Saddam flooding the country with criminals released from Iraqi prisons.

#54 Dr. Shalit
Last night I left a post on the Iranian Jews thread for you but I think you left without seeing it. I just wanted to know how your family is holding up and to let you know that there are many prayers being said for your family and Gilead.

Mary Mapes is doing a piece on this at her new network
/ha ha ha

#134 grayp

If it's true that the Brits are never more than 2 pints away from a riot,

It's less than that if the French are involved...

#127

Everything in Islam is antithetical to the human spirit and that is why Islam will ultimately fail.

grayp

Better then that. The word is out and is being preached from the pulpits of the nation. They are also counselling restraint for they well know what is going on.

I think British appeasement policy works really well. It worked with Napoleoan and it worked pretty well with Hitler for it drew them into the trap of crossing that final line. Dictators and sundry thugs of one sort or another, mistake British restraint as a sign of weakness. It always works.

As long as Muslims in Britain continued to behave as victims, victims of the big bad America and the litte bad wolf Israel, the majority of Brits, fed with a constant diet of al-BBC, sympathised - as we generally do with the underdog. But if these people think they can can threaten this realm, they'd better think again, and real fast.

You have no idea of the level of anger there is in Britain. It is getting downright dangerous, and civil disorder is just a step away. I sincerely hope it does not come to that - and I really mean that.

PS : Read your report. Great stuff.

P.S. Play Julius Jones more --he's a starter on my fantasy team

Same here!

Path to 911 starting on BBC2 now. Is this the ABC one you're all talking about.

Awww, but the Americans are just Nazis, aren't they? Why not enjoy being handled by your own loving people?

grayp

Very good work yesterday.

Keep going and TC

#136 imtoast

Gilead is a very distant cousin so it is no where as "real" for me as it must be for his parents. I'm holding up OK I suspect, and would be angry at this situation without the family tie. Hope Gilead is holding up too, does what he has to do to survive, ala the "Hanoi Hilton" guys from the VietNam days.

-S-

does anyone know about [Link: www.afmi.org...]

how radical are they in America ? ... any idea!

Ted Kennedy took to the floor of the United States Senate and made this statement: "Shamefully we now learn that Saddam's torture chambers reopened under new management, U.S. management."

Will he condemn the latest change of managment?

#140 DP111
I think it goes further than that. The biggest problem we face on our streets every day is anti-social yobs and wanton vandalism from a surly ignorant generation who are all rights and no responsibilities.

The whole judicial system is shot to hell and the only action that is ever taken by police is against those who defend themselves.

The UK is headed for a brutal readjustment to reality. The Jihadis and the liberal media re just part of the problem.

Dr. Shalit

I think of Gilead and his family daily. I have to admit that it takes my breath away and I weep for them. Even if he is a distant cousin I can only imagine the grief you have. Please know that you all are in my prayers. Be strong ok!

I'm sure my fellow Canadian, Louise Arbour, is at this very moment drafting a press release stating that the US has committted yet another heinous War Crime by abandoning Abu Ghraib.

bweep-

That's the one!

#113 vxbush.

Sorry, missed your earlier post. Thanks for pointing out AI link.

I find it oh so cute how everyone here who is singing the tune of 'LOL, paybacks a bitch eh' and 'they deserve it anyway' were probably on the verbal frontlines during the run-up to the war- using the humanitarian excuse and pretending to care about the existence of torture prisons in Iraq as a main proponent and factor to go into the country.

I wonder if its indeed possible to tie one's neck in a knot, by stepping away from one's true colors, and selectively pulling out the sacred morality card to aid those filthy muslims- when the agenda fits.

US has committted yet another heinous War Crime by abandoning Abu Ghraib.

I'm sure you're right. Sad, but possibly true too. The US is good to prisoners. I can't blame these prisoners for wanting American decency in thier jails either, so I'll go with my inital post that it's Cut-and-Runners who are to blame.

#148 bweep

Have you seen the book this article talks about?

An unholy alliance between politicians and bureaucrats who want to keep prison costs to a minimum, and liberal intellectuals who pretend to see in crime a natural and understandable response to social injustice, which it would be a further injustice to punish, has engendered a prolonged and so far unfinished experiment in leniency that has debased the quality of life of millions of people, especially the poor. Every day in our newspapers we read of the absurd and dangerous leniency of the criminal-justice system. On April 21, for example, even the Observer (one of the bastions of British liberalism responsible for the present situation) gave prominence to the official report into the case of Anthony Rice, who strangled and then stabbed Naomi Bryant to death.

A Land Fit for Criminals.

It's not available in the US. Yet.

Calling Captain Oveur...

Affinity misses the point that these posts refer to the fact that MSM perpetrated a, shall we say disproportionate attack on US administration of Abu Ghraib.

on Abu Ghraib... how ironic!

on Path to 9/11 I think it's hilarious how much whining the Dems did. If they hadn't directed so much media attention to it, this would have blown over and would have half the audience it will now receive.

#154 W-lover

Whoa! Please cite my whole sentence, you know, for context.

Affinity-

I wonder if its indeed possible to tie one's neck in a knot, by stepping away from one's true colors, and selectively pulling out the sacred morality card to aid those filthy muslims- when the agenda fits.

I don't see any knotted necks in the Democratic Party though.

So, what- you're fictionalizing other peoples posts now? Assuming to know that humanitarian concerns on their part was "pretending".

You paint with a broad brush around here.

Sorry TOCON-

I'm sure my fellow Canadian, Louise Arbour, is at this very moment drafting a press release stating that the US has committted yet another heinous War Crime by abandoning Abu Ghraib.

I meant that I'm sure you're right- the msm will spin it just like this.

America can't win for tryin' with these two-faced scumbags.

Haha from me too.

That is what many would scream if they would had their dream of a USA-free world come true.

People are so fucking stupid and immoral, constantly trying to destroy the good and boost the evil. And when they get what they want it's not so funny anymore.

There were are group of "idealistic" Swedes that moved to Soviet with the idea that they were going to paradise. Instead they ended up in hell and couldn't get out. Idiots.

Affinity,

It isn't so much 'that payback is a bitch' it is more like 'be careful of what you ask for because you might get it' instead.

What our troops did at that prison paled beside what Saddam did but that in no way excuses the behavior of those entrusted to guard and interrogate prisoners. The prison and the residents were turned over to the Iraqi government. Now you have people who have a very large, dull, chipped axe to grind with some of those prisoners, watching over those prisoners.
How would you handle this quite volatile situation?

You might be able to change the government but you will not be able to change either the culture or culturally acceptable behavior in such a short time.

If you have a plan for this please feel free to let us in on that plan.

#99 grayp
Good job. Thanks for the insight. I have always heard that arabs are inherintly dirty and lazy. That can be easily seen in the arab sector of Jeruselem I hear.
But, I am glad about the abu ghraib prison finally becomming a place that will discourage terrorism.

Perplexed,

It isn't so much 'that payback is a bitch' it is more like 'be careful of what you ask for because you might get it' instead.

I wrote the exact same thing in the post above yours, posted about 1 second earlier. :P

#161 W-lover

No problem, would just hate you to think Affinity and I are cut from the same cloth!

TOCON-

No problem, would just hate you to think Affinity and I are cut from the same cloth!

I would NEVER! :)

#155 grayp
No I hadn't seen that. But then all I need to do is walk out the front door. It can't go on.

We've got these American Warships here ready to be broken up and the ecologists and anti American Liberals are bleating about them. We could put thousands on those. Tow them out into the Irish Sea and drop a plane load of stale bread every other day.

Blair to Haaretz: Western leaders see the danger of Islamic extremism, but our public still does not

I also think that the only way to get change in arab military is get arab kids who are very young. Put them in military schools like we have here in the US. Don't let the kids be part of the fabric of the society they have come from--too much bad influence.
Twenty years later we would have produced officers of decent moral character.

There were are group of "idealistic" Swedes that moved to Soviet with the idea that they were going to paradise. Instead they ended up in hell and couldn't get out. Idiots.

I had an American friend do something similar. Was all about Sweden, just loved Sweden. Moves to Sweden...emails me: Boy- socialism wasn't all he thought it was. LOL

#162 Sobieski

That is what many would scream if they would had their dream of a USA-free world come true.

I agree, I think about that all the time: without the USA the WHOLE world would fall into a new Dark Age in about one year .
And still many, the UN first, just DREAM of reducing our "power".

We live in a childish world, that wishes for things it wouldn't actually want.

Mama, mama, let me play with the matches !

It's too bad the MSM leads to compromises resulting in more inhumanity.

Maybe a priest or rabbi should be stationed ther to dispense some humanity.

/need I...

I had an American friend do something similar. Was all about Sweden, just loved Sweden. Moves to Sweden...emails me: Boy- socialism wasn't all he thought it was. LOL

Haha, well I know that since I live in Sweden. :P

Thinking about moving to New Zealand (which also is kind of welfare-ish, but most likely better than here, and certainly better in other ways).

Well i think we know that we aren't the ones "torturing" anybody, as the left would have us think. I am glad the iraqis are gonna be cruel to them. The terrorists deserve worse than that, and now the left can't blame Americans for doing reasonable things.

The lawyer for an Iranian student activist who died in jail accused top judiciary officials on Sunday of murdering his client.

Lawyer Khalil Bahramian said he filed a lawsuit against judiciary officials for allegedly murdering student activist Akbar Mohammadi.

Mohammadi died in Evin, Iran's most notorious prison, in July after a nine-day hunger strike to protest lack of medical care. He had been jailed for taking part in protests at Teheran University in July 1999 - Iran's biggest anti-government demonstrations since the 1979 Islamic revolution.

Mohammadi was sentenced to death on charges of endangering national security, but his sentence was later reduced to 15 years in prison.

"I filed a lawsuit against Evin prison officials for the deliberate murder of Mohammadi," Bahramian told The Associated Press on Sunday.

But Bahramian said he was immediately summoned to the judiciary for "insulting judiciary officials." He has been asked to appear in court Tuesday to respond to the charges.

"Iranian prison officials have a track record of giving false information about the fate of political prisoners," said Joe Stork, deputy director of the Middle East and North Africa division at Human Rights Watch.

The Iranians are more humane,

They turn the Music up real loud so no one can hear you screaming.

I think maybe they were screaming just to be jerks.

The witness said that even in the thieves' section prisoners were being treated badly. "Someone was shouting 'Please help us, we want the human rights officers, we want the Americans to come back'," he said.

This sorta proves that we didn't do such a bad job running this prison after all. I love it!

#170 El Greco,

When I married a Korean, one friend said "either send her back quite often or never let her go back." Many years later, my now ex went back to Korea to visit. She had become too Americanized and hated the visit. Everything was dirty according to her.

I suspect that if we did that to a group of Iraqi children that they would hate their own country. While you idea at first appears good it won't work.

Sobieski-

I emailed him back that "A Conservative is a Liberal who's been mugged by reality."

What's wrong with moving to America? We'll let you have guns!

Pink panties over Affinity's head ! NOW !

But if S/He likes better Saddam's torture chambers we will need a time machine...

/silly thing, we are not laughing about torture, we are laughing about the liberal traitors who made a propaganda war against America for a case of NOT EXISTING torture and are silent and stupid before the REAL problems !

If you have a plan for this please feel free to let us in on that plan.

Did I say I had a plan? That wasn't the point.
The point was the inherent and the chronic hypocrisy that is evidenced in every single thread here. In this case, torture prisons= very bad when we needed to invade Iraq- but now they are quite humorous when we don't need that excuse to invade anymore. I find the fake empathy towards Iraqis when its convenient quite disgusting.

Totally OT, but you have to see the unraveling going on over at the DailyKos.

Some nutrooter saw the "Path to 9-11" excerpt where Al Qaeda trainees shoot at an image of Clinton, and decided that this was some sort of tip-of-the-hat to "wingers."

Nice. Now I'm watching a scene where a movie of President Clinton is being projected on a screen, it's footage from some Clinton speech, and a Taliban guy walks up and shoots several times at Clinton's head, you see a good 5 or 6 or more bullets make holes in the screen in the middle of Clinton's head, just like he's assassinating Clinton.

Yes, we now have Disney/ABC throwing in mock assassinations of Bill Clinton. Did the Taliban really stage such a mock assassination of Clinton with bin Laden watching, and somehow we got a blow-by-blow of the entire scene? Or did Disney/ABC decide to throw in a mock assassination of Clinton just for the fun of it? You decide.

Apparently, not one of the hundreds of crazed rooters who have commented has ever seen the tapes uncovered by CNN after the fall of the Taliban.

One of the tapes includes images of small arms training with a projected image of Clinton.

182 Affinity,

You're critical of what we're saying but you offer nothing to improve the situation. Pretty easy for you to sit back and criticize now isn't it? We didn't invade because of the prisons. There are much worse places to be in prison elsewhere in the world than Iraq.

The thingo can't even read.

Typically liberal.

If it is not written in Marx's Das Kapital, it doesn't exist.

(well, they read the Koran too, now).

#117 W-lover 9/10/2006 11:10AM PDT

To think that the US could foster democracy in such a place is quite naive.

I think you're selling some Iraqis short.

I certainly hope that the Iraqis prove me wrong. I really do.

I want the prisoners to come back too.

Without them, when liberals shriek about Abu Ghraib, they just wont seem as sincere - and the war on terror is really just about making sure nobody's feelings get hurt, right?

when the agenda fits.

Aw. Isn't that cute?

Affinity is trying to play the moral clarity card.

Hey Affinity, when the NY Times ran, literally hundreds, of stories about Abu Ghraib being an instance of American immorality did you ever think that you would be ignoring even worse actions by the Iraqis to demonize neocons?

#180 W-Lover

"A Conservative is a Liberal who's been mugged by reality."

Pricelessly true, especially today, one day before 9/11.

W-lover:

What's wrong with moving to America? We'll let you have guns!

America is obviously an option, but I kind of like NZ. It's the right temperature, not too big, beautiful scenery. But I hear their broadband connections are down a lot... (insert chocked smiley here)

# 182 Affinity:

Did I say I had a plan? That wasn't the point.

Right. Just bitch about everything we do, though.

Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got
Till it's gone
They paved paradise
And put up a parking lot

~Joni Mitchell

The point was the inherent and the chronic hypocrisy that is evidenced in every single thread here. In this case, torture prisons= very bad when we needed to invade Iraq- but now they are quite humorous when we don't need that excuse to invade anymore. I find the fake empathy towards Iraqis when its convenient quite disgusting.

Affinty- I do too- which is why I don't go to kos or vote for democrats. I'm still pissed we didn't help Afghanistan before 9/11, okay?!

I'm offended by your broad-brushism, painting everyone here as hypocrites. I think you're a fucking hypocrite- pissed off at ABC, but nevermind Dan Rather.

What? The Iraqi guards won't let them play naked twister?

#171 W-lover

Good post. Living in Canada, I can tell you that you don't need to go to Sweden to know that Socialism ain't all it's cracked up to be. The best parts of Canada are, honestly, the American bits.
After my wife and daughter, I mean.

We live in a childish world, that wishes for things it wouldn't actually want.

I think it's a combination of chosen stupidity and immorality. It's immoral because they should know better. You can't seriously think Bush is "the worlds greatest terrorist" and all that stuff. You just can't, not without a great deal of self-deception, which is a form of immorality.

Affinity: Seriously ...why do you even come here?

# 184 perplexed:

Well, I'd have to say we're pretty much on the same page when it comes to the likes of Affinity.

182 Affinity

You have no purpose, except to disparage those who have a purpose. You are negativity personified. In other words - you are a moonbat. We have your number. You are boring us.

I find the fake empathy towards Iraqis when its convenient quite disgusting.

You must be disgusted with yourself a lot, then.

#194

The only naked twister these days is going on at Harvard during visits from the Iranian embassy.

148 bweep

The whole judicial system is shot to hell and the only action that is ever taken by police is against those who defend themselves.

The UK is headed for a brutal readjustment to reality. The Jihadis and the liberal media re just part of the problem.

Too true. A once well ordered society, Britain under NuLabour has become ungovernable. A 're-adjustment' as you say, is necessary.

#183 TheLeague
too funny, you'd think all this fact checking of this movie would lead them to some facts.
/oh well

”I heard shouting, like someone had a hot iron on their body, screams."

You mean as opposed to panties-on-the-head type of screams?

Gordon: prefered two to one over the next leading troll!©

#192 Cattt

Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got
Till it's gone
They paved paradise
And put up a parking lot

Ha, was just looking to see if this was posted!

We left Abu Ghraib,
And the prisoners are happy, not!

Did I say I had a plan? That wasn't the point.
The point was the inherent and the chronic hypocrisy that is evidenced in every single thread here. In this case, torture prisons= very bad when we needed to invade Iraq- but now they are quite humorous when we don't need that excuse to invade anymore. I find the fake empathy towards Iraqis when its convenient quite disgusting.

I also find it hypocritical that the NY Times thinks a story (Abu Ghraib) is important to report when it can hurt a Republican administration but will ignore it when I cannot (or when it might help).

So we've lost close to 3000 troops and spent several hundred billion dollars to replace a brutal and torture-happy dictatorship with a brutal and torture-happy pseudodemocracy.

I call that a bargain, the best I ever had.</sarcasm>

I know it sounds callous, but it's true: those almost 3000 troops and several hundred billion dollars are a sunk cost. We're not going to get them back, whether we continue the occupation or not. What we should be asking now is if the likely future costs are worth the likely future benefits.

How many more years, how many more lives both American and Iraqi, how many more billions of dollars will it take to bring half-decent government to Iraq? If we're just throwing good money after bad, then maybe it's time to declare victory and go home.

Let them have their Shari'a, if that's what they say they want. Hell, let the Caliph rule in Baghdad once more. The Islamo-Dominionists dream of a mythical time when the Caliph ruled in Baghdad, men were men, women were barefoot and pregnant, everyone was pure and pious and a magic carpet would get you from Baghdad to Marrakesh in two hours. Maybe not the magic carpet, but it's just as real as the rest of it.

Many a country has reached for democracy and failed o n the first try. France tried in 1789 and ended up with Napoleon, tried again in 1848 and ended up with Napoleon III, and tried a third time in 1871 and finally got it. Russia tried in 1917 and ended up with Lenin, and tried again in 1991 and ended up with Putin. Germany tried in 1918 and you know how the rest of that went.

Even the United States had to dodge a few bullets.

So let Iraq have that mythical paradise, and if in 25 years they're ready to give democracy another chance, then we'll be ready.

Sura-

What we should be asking now is if the likely future costs are worth the likely future benefits.

Sorry, but if the future benefit is America continues to exist- I'll pay that price.

#197 Pink Freud

why do you even come here?

The trolls come here for one reason only: to feel self-righteous and to fathom the GREAT distance between THEM, the enlightened elite, and us, the great unwashed mass of people who believe they can and must think by themselves instead of receiving the gospel of truth from the Great Leaders (Marx, Lenin, Mao, Castro, Chavez, Kennedy the Swimmer, Kerry the Nam UNveteran).

They feel good and clean.
The world can go to hell, it does not matter. The important thing is to feel clean.

#208 Sura 109

and tried a third time in 1871 and finally got it

Membership in the Third Reich?

The Third Republic is the best France could do? Ouch.

206 itellu3times

I did a search to see if someone else had posted it. :) I'm glad I'm not the only one who remembers it.

Man, I can't wait 'till the MBM (MoonBat Media) get ahold of this one! Of course, they'll have to figure out how to make their all-too-predictable spin at least sound semi-rational ...

/!

Affinity,

This situation is quite ironic. They complained about the Americans running the place, demanded that the Americans leave and turn the day to day running of the prison over to the Iraqis. We did exactly that and now they're whining about us having done exactly that.

I'm still waiting for your solution to this problem.

#208 Sura 109

You forget we went there to stop a dictator who was funding terrorism and hosted some of the worst terrorists (like Nidal etc.).

You forget that if they fall into chaos Iraq will become a new Afghanistan, a more powerful Afghanistan, the HQ of terrorism.

#212 Beagle

The French Third Republic began in 1871 and ended with the German invasion in 1940. That's 69 years under one system of government. Among French governments only the Ancien Régime has ever lasted longer.

#183

Here's something from the DailyKos comment section from your link. I'm not sure what this fellow's getting at:

"These fuckers are malignant as well as stupid.

This is supposed to be a time of non-political remembrance.

It's a fucking disgrace, as I'm sure we all agree.

So, please, let's take off the gloves.

What does he mean by take off the gloves?

How would CAIR interperet his statement if this DailyKos lunatic made these statements about them?

Of course it has no plan!Just another contrarian same old stuff.

To write correctly Ancien Regime with the accent on the first E of regime one must use HTML coding OR have a French keyboard.
from France ?
from Canada ?

"WE" have lost 3000 Soldiers ?

# 217 Sura 109:

The French Third Republic began in 1871 and ended with the German invasion in 1940. That's 69 years under one system of government. Among French governments only the Ancien Régime has ever lasted longer.

So? It just goes to show the French have no concept of self-government, though they like to bitch about us young uns all the time. Though the French apparently do like invaders drinking all their wine, and will sell them the bottle to prove it.

Hey Asininity care to link to those threads here where the overriding reason to go to Iraq was prison torture?

Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss
We won't get fooled again.

Celissa-

I hope you took the time to read some of their posts- their blog has really improved, they give me hope.

#211 ploome hineni

some of us do not think being naked with panties on the head, or being threatened by a dog is torture

It was a criminal act however -- just about everyone that was prosecuted was convicted with charges such as dereliction of duty,maltreatment of detainees, failing to protect detainees from abuse, etc.

It's important not to gloss over their acts, because obviously this was not the policy of the administration, by comparing it to real torture, it's the sort of moral relativism I would expect from the Left. It might not be torture, but it was abuse, and the acts of these people reflected badly on our nation, and gave a cause to Jihadi's when in reality this was the act of the few, that abused the trust they were given to care for Iraqi prisoners.

#216 Poitiers-Lepanto

So what do you do when you have the wolf by the ears?

If I thought there was any reasonable chance of Iraq not becoming "a new Afghanistan, a more powerful Afghanistan, the HQ of terrorism", then I'd be in favor of staying. But if all we're doing is delaying the inevitable, shouldn't we do the tactical retreat now, before we've bankrupted the Treasury and pissed off what friends we still have left?

Poitiers-Lepanto-

Cut-and-Run by any other name is still Cut-and-Run.

Sura 109 says:

If I thought there was any reasonable chance of Iraq not becoming "a new Afghanistan, a more powerful Afghanistan, the HQ of terrorism", then I'd be in favor of staying. But if all we're doing is delaying the inevitable, shouldn't we do the tactical retreat now, before we've bankrupted the Treasury and pissed off what friends we still have left?

I don't even know where to start.

#208 Sura 9:5

So let Iraq have that mythical paradise, and if in 25 years they're ready to give democracy another chance, then we'll be ready.

As VDH said, if the Iraqi people are unanimous that they want us to leave and let the Islamists take over, you don't have to ask us twice. We're gone. As a matter of fact, they are voting (a non-shari'a system) in huge numbers, they have a sizable national militia now, and the majority supports the idea of a constitution that guarantees some basic rights. Women are speaking out and all of that -- they don't want the Islamists in power. They hope we can defeat the jihadists, which is obviously proving to be a longer term project than many Westerners would like.

It also puts in perspective the number of troops lost in Iraq over the three years (in a war against radical Islam) to compare it to the invasion of Normandy or Iwo Jima.

Start at the top Geepers-

If I thought there was any reasonable chance of Iraq not becoming "a new Afghanistan, a more powerful Afghanistan, the HQ of terrorism", then I'd be in favor of staying.

Wow. Talk about disconnect.

#183 TheLeague

Thanks for the links. That was the most fun I've had fact-checking some nutrooters into the boards in a long time.

They only talk about the news. Usually it's better to have a passing familiarity with the facts before spouting off. They built multiple conspiracy theories based on nothing and the hive mind spun them into righteous anger. Funny, if they didn't vote.

#220 Põìtíêrs-Lèp&ati lde;ñtò

Ñópé, ñó Fréñćh kéýbóárd héré. Júst Übûntù wíth thé Ú.S. Íñtérnãtìô ;ñàl làÿõût ã ćlîćk âwãý.

(Can't be bothered to reboot into Windoze to detail how to do it there; start with the Control Panel, that's all I remember off the bat.)

Hey Big Tuna,

Thanks for giving the rock to Julius!

The movie that will be on later has enraged the trolls.

Since 4000 B.C., the default form of government has been some form of monarchy/tyranny or aristocracy. Democracies and republics have been short-lived by comparison.

Given the human propensity to be selfish, democracies and republics represent the best form of human government -- "best" meaning they're the most likely to produce peace, justice, and material prosperity.

Pluralistic forms of government do tend to corrode religious and other kinds of commitments, however, so things tend to swing back and forth between these two poles.

None of this is grounds for not trying in Iraq.

#231 Beagle
I've scoured that thread pretty good and can't find a single koskid who took 30 seconds to google and check that Clinton target practice thing is real. Not one single fact checker or google user in the entire bunch. It's kinda spooky when you think about it.

#153 Affinity

those filthy muslims

Coming soon to a CAIR Action Alert.

How does it feel being a bigoted, racist, Islamophobe, asshole?

#208 Sura 109

Germany tried in 1918 and you know how the rest of that went.

C'mon, finish the train of thought. We went to Germany, stayed for years, and now they've joined the other nations of the civilized world.

#236 Killgore Trout

Not one single fact checker or google user in the entire bunch. It's kinda spooky when you think about it.

It sure is. I spend a lot of time perusing the DNC blog. I've done this since right before the last election. They make breathtaking statements that are so full of inaccuracies and just, well, stupidness. No one EVER challenges them . No one ever makes them back up a claim. They are just there to be cheerleaders for each other. If someone is challenged, the challenger is automatically labeled a troll and beaten about the head and neck.

Not the best place to learn anything.

Did we know sura's a koskid?...
Man arrested for knife in "sterile area" of Detroit airport
by Sura 109

Was this knife found at the checkpoint? Even before That Day In September, it should have been caught. If not, by just what measures did they find that knife? Did they profile him? (He had a one-way ticket to Yemen.) Maybe some TSA guy thought he was acting rather nervous. Or maybe he dropped the book in which the knife was hidden and the knife fell out.

You left out the scenario where the screeners noticed the knife at the checkpoint and the let him claim his carry-on to make sure it was him and the charge him with actualy possessing the weapon in a secure area instead of attempting to get a weapon through security. It's a much more feasable theory than "he dropped his book and the knife flew out".

To Sura's credit, S/He is here posting while Affinity is lurking/gone.

W-lover (#230),

The brilliant insight of the left that requires them to dream of Fitzmas future.

The Sunnis now know what is in store for them when the Iraqi army assumes responsibility for Iraq's security. They probably won't bother taking prisoners.

Latest Paleonazi Poll indicates that nearly 2/3rds of Paleos support the use of terror against Israel.

Sura 109 does Kommedy too...
The CBS papers are forged. So what?
by Sura 109
/Bwahahaha

Geepers-

Because pulling out of Vietnam worked out soo well for the South Vietnamese.

/Wouldn't want to learn history, or anything.

#244 Bubbman

Then we will just have to see to it that they are not allowed to turn their homicidal fantasy into reality.

Silly, Sura! Quitters don't win.

Sura 109 made a decent argument.

Affinity is a particularly noxious self-righteous Moby-troll.

#239 mama winger
There have to be koskidz who checked. Even though they might be afraid to speak up they know that their elite koskidz are either lying or stupid. More LLL conversions on the way.

Damn, is it troll time again?

Hi trolls!

/love to stay and play, but like, there's football on all day, come back after the Manning bowl's over tonight

Killian Bundy -

Me too! I have to go watch the blind leading the blind, or as we say here in Wisconsin:

Bears vs Packers

Well, maybe they're being tortured, but they get to keep their precious Arab honor, right? Nothing humiliating like panties on the head, so what are they complaining about again?

And to top it off, I bet if a tortured prisoner gets released, he'll hate the U.S. even more because we turned the prison over to the Iraqis.

W-lover and Geepers bring up something that I have always found frustrating with the left--there is never any indication that they want to learn from history. We bring up Chamberlain's pathetic response to Hitler, and they don't see anything that can apply to today.

The non-left can argue about what that event meant in history and how it applies now, but at least they are willing to talk about it.

OT FOXnews now, live President and Mrs. Bush, Rudy Guilaini and NYC & NYS dignitaries are walking into the pit .

#226 Sura 109
In the interest of intellectual honesty drop this on the Clinton target practice thread and let's see what happens...
America's New War: Military Mobilizes; President to Speak to Nation
Aired September 20, 2001 - 18:30

New Delhi is now sharing with Washington what it believes are the locations of some of these camps. At one such training center, militants are seen using a picture of former U.S. President Bill Clinton for target practice.

If you can find a source more palatable to Koskidz you're welcome to use it instead.
Let's see what happens.

#220 Poitiers-Lepanto

No special keyboard or software necessary. You just have to learn some key combinations.

On a Mac:
option + e followed by e = é
option + n followed by n = ñ

(I memorized those two because I had to do some typesetting in Spanish once.)

It's a little trickier on a PC. You press alt (I think) while typing a 4-digit number on the numeric keypad. There's a chart that comes with QuarkXpress listing all the code numbers. Really, it should come standard with all PCs. Maybe it's buried in the documentation somewhere.

Chopped Liver #42-

We bring up Chamberlain's pathetic response to Hitler, and they don't see anything that can apply to today.

Except they apply Hitler to Bush and Nazi to Jews. It's like they learned history from Bizzaro World.

This is nothing.

At least nobody is having panties put on their head.

/oh, the humanity

#257 rickl

Unfortunately, on a laptop without a keypad I can't pull it off. I could type something in Word and then cut and paste it, but it's easier just to wing it (e.g., use an apostrophe in place of an accent mark).

There was another story at The Telegraph about the recent mass execution of 27 Abu Ghraib prisoners. Didja catch the moral equivalence in the story's wording?

The brutal excesses of Saddam Hussein's regime were relived yesterday as Iraq's new government announced that it had hanged 27 prisoners convicted of terror and criminal charges.

See? Saddam's execution of dissidents was no different than the current Iraqi Government's execution of murderers.

#21 Earth (and to Derbal at #109):

You really expected anything different? You can't undo a culture by training. That's the big error the left keeps making.

Sorry for the delay. I was outside enjoying the day :)

Anyway, um... what the hell are we doing over there then? Isn't the idea to train them so we don't have to be there forever? When the WMDs weren't found, Bush moved our purpose to 1) fighting them on their turf and 2) bringing them democracy. Then I read things like Grayp's post at #99. Does anyone here truly believe they can accept a democractic-style government? A pray to God I'm wrong, but these are some of my greatest fears and what the hell we're going to do about it if it doesn't happen.

I can do the ' thing, but not the ~ thing:

Paté

For an accent you use "&" on one end and ";" on the other-

inbetween put in the letter to be accented followed by "acute", no spaces. Example: "eacute"

#220 Poitiers-Lepanto

charmap.exe on windows contains the character maps that you can paste and copy from (start/run -> charmap.exe)

Under KDE/Linux there is kcharselect (on mine under
utilities in the menu) that allows you to paste/copy chars.

On a serious note, here's a very good article that helps understand why "training didn't prevent this". One of the themes - it's the culture, stupid!

OH! "&" goes in front, ";" in back!

#231:Beagle, #236:KT

I've gone through the Kos thread again, and I don't see anyone awake yet.

I checked over at "AmericaBlog" and that person has hit the snooze button, too.

It's funny. They don't check, because they don't remember the world before...the 2000 election. Some people say that the leftists are obsessed with the Iraq invasion. Like two marbles in a bowl, one is always the Iraq invasion.

I say it goes back a few more years. Their 9-11 was actually the 2000 election, not the day Islamic terrorist killed 3K. Nothing exists before FL 2000. As a result, not one of those fools has ever seen a jihadi video, or paid attention to CNN's coverage, or has even passed by MEMRI.

To the average moonbat, 9-11 was the product of the current administration. It couldn't possibly have to do with the time before the 2000 election. That was a happy time, you know, when the world loved us and there were no homeless, no hurricanes, and a happy Sun smiled on us every morning.

Thus, when they see a terrorist shooting at a picture of President Clinton, it must be some nefarious message to the vast right wing conspiracy. It couldn't possibly be terrorists in training camps, because they didn't exist before Halliburton made them up.

Targét...

W-lover

Chopped Liver #42-

We bring up Chamberlain's pathetic response to Hitler, and they don't see anything that can apply to today.

Except they apply Hitler to Bush and Nazi to Jews. It's like they learned history from Bizzaro World.

From Bizzaro world--or the evening news. Or Scholastic teachers guides.

/ba-dump

#240 Kilgore Trout

That's a reasonable scenario. As I said here, as I said there, we need more facts. All we have is a sound bite masquerading as a news story.

It does not answer the question: Did they find the knife at the checkpoint?

This does look like a hijacking that was nipped in the bud. And all it gets is four or five sentences while some celebrity farts in the wrong direction and all hell breaks loose.

I am real sure they would like to have their humanitarian officers back. That seems to be a wasted officer billet.

Anyway, I somehow cannot bring myself to feel any pity for them. I am sure they were all excited to hear the Americans were going away, up to the point the Iraqi's arrested them...

Where's Ted Kennedy and Chris Durbin when you need them?

"We Want the Americans to Come Back"

Dick Durbin before he Dicks you!

#255 NY Nana

President and Mrs. Bush, Rudy Guilaini and NYC & NYS dignitaries are walking into the pit

I watched it on al-CNN, and they mentioned that a group of protestors (probably "Truthers" -- spit) were outside the cordoned off area screeching about the government orchestrating 9/11 and blah blah. They also felt the need to mention that a recent poll revealed that 42% of Americans think there was a government conspiracy, (I thought the poll said "over a third"), but at least the commentator said that those ideas had been put to rest by the 9/11 Commission.

Watch for more garbage from the conspiracy kooks tomorrow.

#225 xenophobic 9/10/2006 01:17PM PDT
#211 ploome hineni

some of us do not think being naked with panties on the head, or being threatened by a dog is torture

It was a criminal act however -- just about everyone that was prosecuted was convicted with charges such as dereliction of duty,maltreatment of detainees, failing to protect detainees from abuse, etc.

It's important not to gloss over their acts, because obviously this was not the policy of the administration, by comparing it to real torture, it's the sort of moral relativism I would expect from the Left. It might not be torture, but it was abuse, and the acts of these people reflected badly on our nation, and gave a cause to Jihadi's when in reality this was the act of the few, that abused the trust they were given to care for Iraqi prisoners.

It was textbook interrigation tactics for at the time. It was degrading, humiliating, shameful, and scarey. It was loud music, lights, and a lot of weirdness to break em down so they would cooperate.

Now SINCE then, decisions have been made to protect these prisoners from "abuse". But I get sick and tired of Susie sweethearts wringing their hands about the reputation of our national identity when our US sons and daughters are at WAR. It isn't a parade or a wrestling contest people it's a WAR. Don't get stuck on stupid.

*spit*

How do I know? Cuz I did my tour.

I dont plan on holding my breath until this story makes MSM headlines, but if anyone in our left-wing media were to pick up on it, the take would be that Iraqi guards had simply learned all of their techniques for torture from their American predecessors and were only copying what they had seen the evil US soldiers do.