Firsties?

The mosque houses within its arches a cathedral built to consolidate Catholic rule after Muslims were expelled from Spain in 1492. Muslims are forbidden to pray in the building.

I thought the mosque had actually been replaced with a cathedral when the Spaniards gave the Moors the heave-ho in the 15th century...

THE BISHOP!
(thanks Bweep)

But all the Muslims were peeing their pants for fear that the Pope would pray so why should we let them pray in a Church?

The full version

VIVA LA ANTI-STANIST REVOLUCION

uh-cause the allah god is satanic?

Charles, you should check out Drudge. Quite a headline there.

Many are drawn by a romantic nostalgia for the lost paradise of Al-Andalus...

Paradise? But Paradise for whom? Certainly not the subjugated native population. After all, if "Al Andalus" was Paradise, who would want to end it?

Their boldness knows no bounds.

Everyday something new being done to exterminate the west. Am I the only one noticing this? Just look at this site and those similar?
We need the heroes of old.

Spain might become the first western nation to revert back to 7th century ways and devolve into a caliphate. You know, maybe it will take a western country becoming a caliphate for the rest of the world to wake up and smell the 7th century horse manure we'll all be stepping in shortly.

#7

To say the least. Drudge hasn't pulled out the klaxons, surprisingly.

Mr Escudero, an ousted moderate who nonetheless remains head of Spain's umbrella Islamic Council, said he did not favour the construction of flamboyant mosques with foreign money.

Oust, oust, damn'd moderate!

The Muslims tore down The Cathedral to St. Vincent when they conqured Spain, and put the Corboda mosque in it's place. This is rarely mentioned in the MSM. Muslims are intolerant in the extreme.

Many are drawn by a nostalgia for the lost paradise of al-Andalus, the caliphate that ruled Spain for more than five centuries.

The Caliphate ruled the Iberian Peninsula from 715 to 1491- about seven and 3/4 centuries. In which time, there was continual persecution of Jews and Christians, constant warfare with the southern French kingdoms, kidnapping of non-Islamic women, atrocities, expropriation of goods and property, and a general policy of unremitting warfare against European civilization externally and the unhesitating use of terror on the Caliphs' whims against "unbelievers" internally. Not to mention giving rise to the "heroic" myth of El Cid, who was actually a mercenary who worked for whoever met his price, and played both ends against the middle until, as H. Beam Piper might have put it, both ends fell in on him and he got squashed.

And they define that as a "paradise"?

Oh, right. I forgot. The Qur'an defines those conditions as being "paradise". For true believers, that is.

cheers

eon

They should ONLY be built with strings attached.

As soon as the 1st Presbyterian Church, Three Synagogues, 2 Catholic Cathedrals, African Anglican Cathedral, the First Second and Third Baptist Churches and of Course the Orthodox, & all Coptic Churches are all built with thriving congregations in Mecca and Medina;

Then we should allow more mosques in Spain, and any other place in the west.

Till then, they should make do with what they have, or leave PEACEFULLY and emmigrate to a more Sharia Friendly land.

The bishops of those cities are alarmed at the construction of ostentatious mosques, fearing that the church’s waning influence may be further eclipsed by resurgent Islam financed from abroad.

A resurgent Islam, whatever consequences that holds for Spain, is not the cause of the church’s waning influence.
The solution is to increase that influence. You can't fight a competing faith with no faith.

Muslims do not welcome others into their mosques. My former Member of Parliament here in England was refused entry to the mosque in her constituency because she was a woman.

Besides, as has been said time and again, if I wandered down to my local mosque and asked to be allowed to pray there, would I be let in? Actually, now I come to think of it, my local mosque was once a nice big house. Perhaps I should assert my right to restore it to its original state, and move in. An extra bedroom would be nice...

#7 Final Historian 1/6/2007 02:55PM PST

Charles, you should check out Drudge. Quite a headline there.

My heart just stopped.

Who was Israeli PM when the IAF hit Osirak?
Whover, he probably had more cojones than Olmert.

al-Independent will probably have a charity drive to raise funds for this Little Mecca project. Their Xmas appeal was for the "forgotten" Paleonazis.

“It showed that mosques are open to Christian worshippers,” he said. “Could not Muslims pray in Cordoba’s mosque?”

Show me the Christian Church in Mecca. All else is taiqiya.

#14 eon

The Caliphate ruled the Iberian Peninsula from 715 to 1491- about seven and 3/4 centuries.

Actually most of it was back in Christian hands by about 1300. Córdoba was part of that. For all that the locals still call the cathedral La Mezquita, it has been a church for much longer than it was a mosque.

Only Granada remained to the Muslims, and that by paying tribute to Castilla y León.

#17 Old Gobbo

Qur'an 9:17
"The disbelievers have no right to visit the mosques of Allah while bearing witness against their own souls to infidelity. These it is whose doings are in vain, and in the fire shall they abide. Only he shall visit the mosques of Allah who believes in Allah and the latter day, and keeps up devotional obligations, pays the zakat, and fears none but Allah."

My message to the Spanish Euroweanies:

Spain's "islamization" is the result of your own policies. Tragically, the Spanish have learned little over the intervening years. After finally throwing off the yoke of a tyrranical socialist government in the 70's, Spain emerged as a Democracy. But, you failed to value your freedoms. The Spanish allied with nare-do-wells like Arafish and never missed the chance to support the Islamonazis.

You accepted boat-loads of Muslims in gestures of "tolerance" and took in criminals such as the terrorists from the Church of the Nativity. Al-Qaeda and other anti-Western terrorists were allowed to use Spain as a gateway. When your trains were bombed and hundreds of your civilians killed, rather than fighting for your freedoms and Western Culture, you raised the white flag of surrender.

I hate to say this, but Spain, you had this coming. So suck on your pig's feet for the last time - they'll be banned under Sharia - and enjoy the subjugation that Islame has to offer. Hopefully, it won't take you 500 years before you wake up and cast out the Moors again. See ya!

I vaguely remember someone in Italy complaining about the same thing, i.e., that the mosque being built in her city was gigantic.

#16 solomonpanting

The solution is to increase that influence. You can't fight a competing faith with no faith.

Amen to that. When, exactly, are our own LLL's going to realize this?

Oh, I forgot. They don't see radical Islam as a threat. The threat comes from Christianity. Never mind that in reality it is one of the things that will save us in the end. The irony in this situation would be funny if it weren't so dangerous.

Demographics, demographics. That's what it all boils down to. Mark Steyn tells us that Spain's population is halving with every generation.

#19 Jim in Virginia:

It was Menachem Begin, of the Likud party.

Netanyahu has the cojones. He's the head of Likud today.

Speaking of tolerance, let's look at the latest gesture of "islamic" tolerance.

It seems a Kenyan born marathon runner had his Bahraini citizenship revoked because he - gasp - ran a marathon in Israel.

I guess my only surprise is that they didn't cut the poor guy's feet off for the offense.

Anyone been to Spain lately? I have. Madrid and numerous cities and towns throughout the country. In almost every town, there were conspicuous groups of muslim young men everywhere. The Spaniards struck me as contented ruminants, grazing, while the wolf packs circled the herds, sizing up where to strike when the signal eventually comes.

Very sad. Beautiful country. Nice people.

Doomed.

Parts of the northern litoral odf Spain such as Asturias and the Basque Provinces were never conquerd by the islamic invaders. A few years after the muslim cinvasion Pelayo anfd his band of Christian fighters launched the Reconquista
that by 1050 had freed much of northern Spain from dhimmitude and in 1492 driving tthe last decadent muslim ruler from Granada.
It is fortunate reconquista Spain could follow as policy that lasted more than 3 years and that the Christiann governments of Spain did not have a traitorous media to undermine its leaders, military policies and talking head that spoke treasonous truth to power.

#24 Bubbaman

After finally throwing off the yoke of a tyrranical socialist government in the 70's, Spain emerged as a Democracy.

You should visit Spain now, the same tyrranical socialiast government came back to power after the voted Aznar out in 2004. "Zappy the cobbler" is a die hard red just like his grandfather was and doesn't have a clue.

Hasta luego, baby!

#27 la-arista

By the way, I wonder if any helpful reader would care to provide a working definition of "unsustainable."

Here's one:

Western civilized families, less than 2.1 children per woman,

Sharia immigrants 5-7 children per woman.

They'll vote you into Sharia or push you into Authoritarianism out of democracy just to keep the lid screwed on. EU residents, don't like the idea of a police state and loss of civil liberties .... get used to the idea, and get used to the idea of armed islamists ... kind of like Gaza.

btw - as far as the American Ideal,(we're upholding our end of the American deal with 3 kids in college, plus another one getting married, right now =4), plus 2 for my sister and 3-4 for each of the Lovely&Talented Mrs. Havoc's 4 siblings -- only 2 Democrat-wacko's out of the bunch to boot.

But we need big big Change in America too, Steyn isn't all right about America either:

Immigration by the Numbers, Part I

Immigration by the Numbers, Part II

"Escudero said he had been encouraged by the Pope’s act of prayer in Istanbul’s Blue Mosque on his recent visit to Turkey. “It showed that mosques are open to Christian worshippers,” he said. “Could not Muslims pray in Cordoba’s mosque?”
______________________________________________

When will the West ever learn? I hope the Pope is happy with his little show of friendship. How many times must we say it? Give them an inch...

I came across this interesting short read on the rise and fall of Islam and the subsequent anger and rage experienced by Muslims as they become aware of their backwardness in relation to the rest of the human race.
Origins of Islamic Intolerence

#27 la-arista

Here's a clearer version in one click

Immigration by the Numbers by Roy Beck

#36 " mosques are open to Christian worshippers"

?

Since when , where at what time..

letting the Pope in doesn't prove anything

at all

I mean, I agree with you, gringo, it was a public display of "tolerance"

what else could they do?

they probably fumigated afterward

#35- Havoc

Steyn isn't all right about America either:

Sure, there are plenty of statistics and experts to listen to when dealing with immigration policy. But demographics can stand on its' own. It is what provides the support for Steyn's theory.

I don't think Steyn is trying to be a soothsayer in predicting how (in this case) America is "doomed". He is merely supporting his demographics theory with pure statistics. Same goes for all the other countries.

The controvesial proposals and constant number- throwing from political parties for doing something about the immigration issue is altogether another wasps' nest.

(Bernard)Lewis argues that the success of Muhammad in establishing not merely the Muslim religion, but also a state dominated by that faith, served to create a society that was totalitarian by its very nature, bound by rules and strictures that made it "too static to adapt and compete with a West where Christianity, after the Reformation and the Renaissance, did not demand control over the political and economic spheres."

Extracted from Origins of Islamic Intolerence

#38- Havoc

Thanks. I found it when I was looking at the other ones.

#38 la-arista

Stein's theory of "America Alone" pre-supposes that the U.S. is able to "assimilate" all of it's immigration.

We Can't and we aren't. I live in "From First to Worst" California.

If you live someplace else, get ready, what we have is coming your way in less than 5 years.

Roy Beck would tell Stein that the U.S. is only about 30 years behind Europe UNLESS we in the U.S. assimilate those we now have taken in, including requiring American English Proficiency within 5 years, Like a 4th grade reading level, AND reduce the ACTUAL immigration into the U.S. that we are able to assimilate culturally and politically, and remember Forest Gump with an IQ of 80 was only 20 points below average.

Muslims believe that anywhere a Muslim have ever prayed, then that land is for Muslims only. They want to take over Europe. Pure and simple.

#44- Havoc

Florida isn't too far behind either.

I don't argue Beck's point at all. The only thing that will tell is time. Even in my generation I'm sure that we'll see effects that stem from Steyns' theories of assimilation, together with the same fertility replacement rate. Which for Spain is looking quite dark and gloomy.

One responsibility that comes from living a free, democratic civilization is knowing that those in less fortunate countries will always want to come here.

Reality is that facing the current political and policy-making trend, immigration numbers will continue on their ravaging path. It is too bad.

Mr Escudero said he had been encouraged by the Pope’s act of prayer in Istanbul’s Blue Mosque on his recent visit to Turkey. “It showed that mosques are open to Christian worshippers,” he said. “Could not Muslims pray in Cordoba’s mosque?”

I see, it's all perfectly clear now.

Mr. Escudero can blowme.

I used to favor a 'reciprocal' cultural arrangement (they have the freedoms here as we have there), but now I just want them confined and contained to thier own corner of the planet.

#44 la-artista

We in the U.S. have done more to help the earth in the last 50 years than all the wet dreams of LLL for a millenium.

forget two World Wars and checking communism,

Forget the billions and Hundreds of Billions poured into Europe then EVERY other continent, with "0" thanks, and quite the opposite;

Forget the openhanded outreach of volunteers, Including 5 members of my family having served overseas ...

... the U.S. has saved over a billion people from starvation with the "Green Revolution".

A large Asian Country which has the largest single language group on earth, and a relatively open honest electoral system for the last 59+ years with parlimentary govt. has Proven that a nation that regularly saw vast numbers of it's population starving, can raise itself from poverty to prosperity ...

that nation is India and should be the basic model for the rest of the third world.

Speaking of demographics

German population continues to decline

Germany's population fell for a fourth consecutive year in 2006 and recorded the biggest drop since the country's reunification in 1990, the government said Friday, days after launching financial incentives designed to stall falling birth rates.

#44 Havoc

Roy Beck would tell Stein that the U.S. is only about 30 years behind Europe UNLESS we in the U.S. assimilate those we now have taken in, including requiring American English Proficiency within 5 years, Like a 4th grade reading level, AND reduce the ACTUAL immigration into the U.S. that we are able to assimilate culturally and politically, and remember Forest Gump with an IQ of 80 was only 20 points below average.

Requiring that proficiency of our immigrants is a fine thing--except that it would result in the immigrants being more educated than the natives. What happens when they know our history and politics better than we do?

First things first: categorize functional illiteracy as a negative condition, not a lifestyle choice! We're supposed to have free exchange of information--so let's get some of that information into people's heads!

Mansur Escudero, president of Spain’s Islamic Council, has challenged the current head of Spain’s Episcopal Conference, Bishop Ricardo Blazquez of Bilbao, to explain why Muslims could not pray in Cordoba’s mosque. Mr Escudero said he had been encouraged by the Pope’s act of prayer in Istanbul’s Blue Mosque on his recent visit to Turkey. “It showed that mosques are open to Christian worshippers,” he said. “Could not Muslims pray in Cordoba’s mosque?”

In every Muslim nation I've had the displeasure of being in, non-Muslims are cetainly NOT welcome in the mosques. I think one would be hard-pressed to find ANY mosque anywhere that would allow that to happen, save for the Papal visit to Istanbul.

BTW, Sr. Escudero, that is a former mosque, as has not been one since 1492. The side of good won in that year, deal with it, and go to the ME if it bothers you so.

50 FearlessMinky

Requiring that proficiency of our immigrants is a fine thing--except that it would result in the immigrants being more educated than the natives. What happens when they know our history and politics better than we do?

We'd have that many more educated citizens.

#48- Havoc

a nation that regularly saw vast numbers of it's population starving, can raise itself from poverty to prosperity ... that nation is India and should be the basic model for the rest of the third world.

That remains to be seen. An economics professor of mine several years ago mentioned this very phenomena that is taking place in India and has been for some time. He went on to surmise that such a quickly prosperous and developing economy will have tremendous effects on the US and world in the very near future.

A country which in the very least holds its' own to the USA in engineers, computer scientists, and the medical sciences field...for being 3rd world, not bad at all.

And...population growth: the birth rate is almost triple the death rate.

Yes, the poor Spaniards should be concerned.

#52 Solomon

We'd have that many more educated citizens.

What you say is true, but I was thinking in terms of having an upper class of non-natives, and a lower class of natives. It's fine for the immigrants, but...imagine there being a presumption that being born here means you're less educated.

I'm not saying that all immigrants--or even most immigrants--would seek such a thing, but there are those who simply have no regard for the culture as it is (at its best, anyway), and would dearly love to replace it.

I apologize, but my main beef right now is education--or lack thereof--in this country. I'd like to see Americans reading and writing at least at a fourth-grade level. (I'd actually settle for seeing the average American read something published by companies other than Harlequin or National Enquirer, but...)

I'm getting awfully tired of having to stop conversations and recite from the dictionary to make myself understood (yes, I once had to define "cantankerous" for someone), or explain why I "talk funny." Two-syllable words are all very well in their way, but once in a while, nothing less than four syllables will answer your intent.

People accustomed to using their minds are less likely to make boneheaded mistakes--like voting for the "sexier" candidate--and more likely to understand the issues. The daily annoyances I encounter are symptoms of the wider disease.

...It's late. I have to go to bed shortly. I wish this conversation could have happened earlier!

48 Havoc: Yes, India is a hope for the future but [Link: www.jihadwatch.org...] and [Link: www.dhimmiwatch.org...] have lately been posting articles indicating that politicians in India are deliberately favouring Moslems over Hindus and have just recently permitted Sharia law to be employed where it, supposedly, does not conflict with national law. This is idiocy: sharia by stealth will observe no such parameters.

As to demographics alone being the determinant factor in the war with Islam, I've read Steyn's book and am very admiring of his writings but last week Japan announced an increase in its birth rate for the first time in 6 years and there are other factors ---- overall physical health, political events, lower intellect (both native and moslem), natural resources --- which come into play as well. Revolutions and conquests are both, historically, achieved by minorities, so I'm not convinced that Islam will dominate. Create havoc, yes, (no pun intended on you!), but not, ultimately, triumph.

Actually, It was Granada that was conquered in 1492. Cordoba was conquered by the Castilians in around 1236 (Seville in around 1248), so that area has been under non-Muslim control for nearly 800 years, longer than the article implies.

[Link: www.grapheine.com...]

internet became the best way for djihad

always the relentless pursuit of advantage

word meanings:
Islamic fox = clever
Western fox = crafty

different cultural paradigms

I would love to walk into Hagia Sophia with my shoes on, kneel down (Christian style), and pray a rosary.

How would that be received by the tolerant Turks, and the other millions of moderate Muslims?

The prince of the Muslim Brotherhood, Tariq Ramadan (grandson of the founder of the Brotherhood) has given European Muslims the advice to start acting as if they already had conquered Europe, and put the burden on the Europeans to do something to stop them. This effort to construct a half-scale version of 8th century Cordoba's great mosque, to attract huge numbers of Muslims to the mosque and to raise expectations of the rebirth of Al-Andalus, seem consistent with Tariq Ramadan's advice to spur Muslims to go ahead with the taking of Europe, step by step, as if they already had the ability to do it. They are to act as if it is certain that Europe will become a province of Islam, and as if they already had obtained a majority and all of the power and authority that they need.

Saint Vicent Basilica (Basílica de San Vicente Mártir) was built in the V century and was the biggest temple of the visigothic Córdoba before the invasion. When Córdoba was invaded in 711, muslims promised to allow cristians to pray in the Basilica if they pay the dhimminitude. Abderraman I broke the promise in 786 and demolished the basilica, the episcopal palace and probably other churches. They used the material of theses churches in the mosque (the horseshoe arch was used by the visigothic before them, and even today there is one cross that survives in one of these arches), and they plunder other cathedrals (like Santiago) to use their material in the mosque.

Cordoba was liberated by Ferdinand III of Castille (Fernando III el Santo) on June 29th of 1236, and in this very day the former basilica was consecrated as a Cathedral by the bishop of Osma.

The building has been used tree centuries as christian basilica, 4 and a half as a mosque, and almost 8 as a cathedral.