I only hope for Israel sake that the muslim countries don't have nukes.

Let them be right just one time.

Publishing secret plans = proof the west doesn't have what it takes anymore.

This reminds me of the months Saddam had to prepare for the US invasion. What if they use this info to delay and move the shizit?

Modern communications has its ups and downs...

Hence the 2 Aircraft Carriers to the region?

I should hope that that U.S. has similar plans drawn.

I can just hear the LLL now...crowing away...still believing that a single nuke will plunge us into "nuclear winter."

/as if the two nukes in japan didn't disprove that already...

I only hope for Israel sake that the muslim countries don't have nukes.

Looks like it's too late for that.

Just b/c they draw up plans doesn't mean they'll use them. I cant see israel using nukes to hit iran unless it's back is slammed against the wall.

If it's true, then good for Israel. We don't seem to have the gumption for decisive action anymore. Somebody is going to have to do something about Iran.

Oh, dear God.

It's time for the US and Israel to deal the Iranian IslamoNazis a major blow. We have quietly endured years of their religion-of-mass-murder threats.

It's time to show the Mohammed-worshipping scum who is boss.

Governments have all sorts of 'plans' for all sorts of things. The idea that Israel has 'plans' for this contingency isn't exactly shocking.

My guess is Israel is showing the world that two can play the saber rattling game. But the idea that they are going to be the first to use nuclear weapons is absurd.

Anyone really believe Olmert has the stones for that one?

*YAWN*
Another hyped non-story from the media industrial complex.

Of course Israel has plans for this kind of operation, and probably for a lot of other scenarios. It is almost a dead certainty that the US; and Britain, for that matter; have similar ones. There would be no point in having the weapons if they didn't. This is not the same as intent, let alone a political decision to implement the plan.

The sooner, the better.

Yeah, I have plans for boning Adriana Lima.

Somewhere in our vaults are war plans for nuking Grenada... so whats the big deal.

DO IT! Nuke the bastards and they WILL back off. That's probably the only thing that will work. Just make sure Kofi and the gang are in Tehran when it happens.

i've heard a limited nuclear exchange would have a cooling effect on global warming.

:-

Why would a "tactical nuclear strike" be necessary?

The Heyl ha'Avir took out Saddam's Osirak nuclear facility with a conventional airstrike. And I'm sure the Israelis have conventional HE deep-penetrator "bunker-busters" to deal with underground and/or hardened targets.

I'd want to see where they sourced this. It sounds like something the BBC or Guardian (ex-Daily Worker) would come up with to drum up some more anti-Israel hysteria.

Not that they ever have to try very hard, that is.

cheers

eon

Well, I guess it's a good thing that most Muslims are illiterate..

But the Times has been wrong before with “secret Israeli plan” stories.

For real? Because I nearly had a heart attack reading Drudge's headline. I'm about to try to sleep now too ...

I hope that it's more than a contingency plan. That kind of plan is for a return strike. Israel needs to strike first and apologize to the UN later.

#16

Yeah. The Pentagon probably has a contingency plan for everything. I wonder what the wackiest ones are...we'll never know.

beat that will drive up oil prices. Doh!

And damn, Pat Robertson might be right, LOL...chuckle, chuckle.... Maybe he planted this story....

I'd sit on this one, and file it away in the archives of MSM fantasy. It's generally accepted that Israel has the capability, but if the London Times is privy to what the Israelis plan to do next, that warhead will never see the light of day. I (of course) could be wrong, and if I am the government of Israel has a "leak problem" that dwarfs anything we've witnessed here, and completely compromises their entire national security.

I surprised that all you Lizards here at LGF don't see this for what it is: a ruse to get the Iranians to move the gas so it will be an easier target.

~Norsk Troll

Long live Israel. Death to tyranny, fascism and Muhammed (Please Beat Until Hamburger).

I only hope for Israel sake that the muslim countries don't have nukes.

If they did they'd have used them already.

Psst...

Hey Times...

How about blowing some cover on some secret Iran plans sometime? Or Al Qaeda?

#19

Because conventional weapons likely cannot reach, or sufficiently bury, the underground facilities they likely have. Remember that the other today they bragged about the uniqueness of their tunnel system. Something tells me it isn't that unique, but all the same it might take a tactical nuke to get at it.

Personally, I support the use of tactical nuclear weapons against Iran even if it isn't necessary to shut down their nuke program.

After five years of bending over for Muslims subverting Western civilization, we need to show these Mohammed-worshipping. 7th century scum that we have the will to grind them into dust.

Hey Dinnerjacket --

Can you feel it?

Got Global Warming?

Nuclear Winter is the cure!

/preparing marshmellows to toast.

I imagine the plans involve something like this. The strike would be "nuking" Iran in the way that Flava Flav is a celebrity.

#5 Blackacre
Most counties with militaries draw these types of plans. IIRC, the pentagon reviews war plans annually for the top 20 trouble spots. Other scenarios are reviewed less frequently. Somewhere in the pentagon are warplans for the US to invade Canada and New Zealand.

I only hope for Israel sake that the muslim countries don't have nukes.

Besides which, Samson Option.

Says Douglas Davis,

In addition to Iran’s indigenous nuclear programme, there have been reports that it has bought several nuclear bombs ‘off the shelf’ from rogue scientists in the former Soviet Union. So, for all the fuss about its nuclear programme, Iran might already have several tactical nuclear weapons stuffed in its armoury.

If Israel is drawn into a pre-emptive strike, the Iranians might reckon that the international community will judge an Iranian nuclear response to be proportionate, even justifiable. With their political compass fixed at the dangerous intersection of ideological fervour and religious zealotry, the mullahs of Tehran could be calculating that such an outcome will succeed in both burnishing their Islamic credentials and realising their cosmic dream of dominance.

Via Wizbang, the Spectator reports:

Within the next 12 months, the Americans or the Israelis, possibly both, are likely to launch military strikes aimed at crippling Iran’s nuclear ambitions. Those strikes may come sooner rather than later. And they will probably be nuclear.

They may have plans but I doubt they'll do it.

I've got the stomach for it....

...do the Iranians?

~Norsk Troll

There is no doubt Israel has "contingency plans" for taking out Iran's nuclear facilities. I'm sure Israel has plans for taking out France's and Pakistan's nuclear facilities also.

Any newspaper in the world could run that headline at any time and be correct. So the question becomes "why would the Sunday Times" run that particular story?

Yep, you guessed it...The Sunday Times has an anti-Israeli agenda.

Shocka!

#26 EtNorskTroll

Muhammed (Please Beat Until Hamburger).

Did you just make that up?

'Cause I like that.

I've got the stomach for it....

...do the Iranians?

Do you live in Israel?

Bunker busters cannot penetrate hundreds of feet of rock. I wonder whether a tactical nuke could do it either...

I think a better plan would be some sort of special forces team inserted via long distance gliders, who take the facility and then blow it up from within. But that would take more tech and more intel than we probably have. ALthough who knows....maybe we have gotten spies deep into the facilities. The CIA, Mossad, MI5, etc. are pretty good at what they do.

#19 eon

I'd want to see where they sourced this. It sounds like something the BBC or Guardian (ex-Daily Worker) would come up with to drum up some more anti-Israel hysteria.

Whether it's true or not, I think you're right about the motives for publication of such a headline....they're really testing the peoples. I think there are plenty of disgruntled Brits who just don't think their govt has the batsim...and (why do they have to count on Bush to take care of the problem)?

#26 EtNorskTroll
Thanks for an intelligent comment amidst the "Nook'em".

Yeh, it is about time! HOWEVER, if the media is wrong it could spark a nuclear war. It might give Iran a good reason to strike. But, wait, it might mess up Iran's timing bringing in the 12th Imam!

Expect to be underwhelmed when the story actually comes out.

This type of behavior is absolutely normal SOP for nuclear nations facing warfare. People have forgotten the Cold War for the most part. If you don't knock it out completely it will kill you. If you don't use it, you lose it. Nuclear weapons ratchet up tensions and mistrust on both sides, bringing readiness and war planning to heightened states. Which in the case of Iran and Israel (facing annihilation) means the Israelis must plan for every contingency. The obvious contingency is Iran beginning industrial-scale production of nuclear weapons, the Iranian plan obviously.

Israel supposedly follows a no-first-use principle. But they'd be crazy to follow that blindly in the case of Iran and Mahmoud "Makin' Chaos - Glowing Aura" Ahwannajihad.

Slightly OT (or maybe not)

Go to RealClearPolitics Friday morning page, and check out this one;

The Iranian who wants an apocalypse
by Michael Burleigh

It's worth reading, not so much for his points (as sapient as they are), but for the reactions of most of the responding commentors. A couple approach heights of moonbattery rarely seen even in Madam Speaker Nancy's home turf.

And PS- Yes, the post from "eon" was me. (shameless plug)

cheers

eon

Sounds to me like the MSM trying to garner support for Iran getting nukes.

It's the ol' "Of course Iran should have them. Look at Israel threatening them. It's only fair."

#40 sailordude

Exactly spot on.

#44 Dr, Manhattan:

Bunker busters cannot penetrate hundreds of feet of rock. I wonder whether a tactical nuke could do it either...

There's no real need to destroy the facilities themselves. That's the nice thing about underground complexes. All you really have to do is destroy the entrances/ventilation shafts.

Well, that's good news!

And here's more good news: The U.S. Navy is busily sending carrier battle groups to the Persian Gulf. The purpose is obvious: Deter and if necessary, repel, any retaliatory attacks by Iran on supertankers or oil infrastructure in the Persian Gulf and Strait of Hormuz.

The tone of the Saudi news media has notably sharpened toward Iran in recent weeks--they're now calling Iran a worse problem than Israel-Palestine, which is a BIG change for them.

We may be seeing something truly amazing taking shape here: an alliance between America, Israel and Saudi Arabia against Iran. If so, this is a confirmation that my suggested "divide and conquer" approach against radical Islam is the right idea: What we need is not so much to spread democracy in Saudi Arabia and Iraq, but to nudge them to oppose Iran.

I hope so too. It's one of those things that needs to be done on time, and not too late.

Blog Reaction Roundup...developing...

a nuclear bunker buster would do more than one assumes

it would first, penetrate deep underground as a second wave, so to speak, after conventional bunker busters "softened up" the ground and then be a follow on

not necessarily blowing up the caverns, per-se but think of a big earthquake

yes, it would shake them to pieces even if they could not reach them

and also, an added bonus would be very little comparitively speaking, of the fallout would reach the atmosphere

#53: lobo91

A painful backlash for the Iranians would be the destruction of the centrifuges extracting nuclear tissue. These are very very sensitive technical devices... enough said.

Hit them first, hit them hard.

Keep hitting them until there is nothing left to hit.

((Ω)) Mecca

lobo91 1/6/2007 03:11PM PST

Well, I guess it's a good thing that most Muslims are illiterate..

I wish they COULD read. Then, we could work on getting them some rights on WHAT they read. The ME regimes prefer to keep them the way they are so as not to demand some rights and to know what the &%@* is happening with all of "their" oil money!

#44 Dr. Manhattan

Bunker busters cannot penetrate hundreds of feet of rock. I wonder whether a tactical nuke could do it either...

Sure they can, multiple strikes, one shovelfull at a time.

/and then there's space based kinetic weapons

#58 hans ze beeman

These are very very sensitive technical devices... enough said.

Which is why I always thought that flooding the bunkers would be nice. Especially with sulfuric acid.

53 lobo91

spot on old bean !

good call

now, let me be the first to second the nomination for Israel to get on with it

and as a side order
can we throw jon carry down the shaft first ?

As many have noted, this is not news in any meaningful sense. No news may not be good news, but it can still sell papers and incite the dhimmi fifth column to ramp up its support for the mullahs.
Now, if Israel had a plan for nuking the Times, that might be real news.

If it's true, I can't blame them, but I fear the fallout (no pun intended). Of course it's the fault of the U.N. and all of our alleged allies for fucking us and Israel in the ass. If they had any balls or back bone the world could have put a stop to this. Lovely friggin world.

Killgore Trout (#34): Precisely.

And with our new leadership in Washington, I'm pretty sure the US will sell Israel out on this one too. God help us all.

#62: Earth2Moonbat

Using weapons with enough firepower to produce a nice earthquake would suffice to brak their nuclear chain for years. Except, of course, that they already have acquired nuclear weapons, see my post #36. Then, an Israeli attack would have been anticipated.

#15 Beagle:

Yeah, I have plans for boning Adriana Lima.

Yeah, but now that they're no longer secret, Adriana can develop a defensive strategy to resist your wily charms.

There's still time to get a bet down at 6:1.

#53 lobo91

There's no real need to destroy the facilities themselves. That's the nice thing about underground complexes. All you really have to do is destroy the entrances/ventilation shafts.

"They gotta breathe don't they?"

/Maj. John Reisman, The Dirty Dozen

dirty bomb their facilities and contaminate the entire site for years....They could work around it .... but it would be a HUGE pain in the ass.....

With regards to Iranian retaliation, am I just out of touch or misinformed? Last I heard, they don't have a delivery system to send a nuclear postcard.

ziggy

give George W some blame too
he could stand up and tell the US and the world any time he wants to call a press conference or Oval Office chat and tell people what is really going on and what our intelligence people see and think

for f*ck sakes, with the nazicrats coming to power on sensitive comittees, they're going to leak it all in such a way as to be advantageous to them only and screw POTUS

just like when they outed the Greenbrier and FLETC amoing other things

he ought to use the knowledge he has to our common advantage and survival and stand down the nazicrats before they can do more harm

#59 Iron Fist

My father taught me something that I have passed on to all of my children.

NOBODY GETS A FREE HIT.

If you hit someone, expect to be hit back in return. Since that's the case, you might as well just keep hitting them until their ability to strike back no longer exists.

Wise man, my father.

#64 Shiplord Kirel

As many have noted, this is not news in any meaningful sense.

Not only that, there's no known nuclear bunker buster in existence. This is a little suspect on that basis alone. Unless you can put a nuke warhead in a deep penetrating missile, it's not that useful against a deep bunker. And it's far from obvious that they know how to make a nuke warhead survive those g-forces.

I'm betting that this is one of those Jamil Hussein "anonymous source" kinds of stories. Either that, or the Israelis are playing psyops.

#73 Cartman,

I wouldn't put my trust in a lack of Iranian missiles.

We really don't know, because their leadership is so psychotic.

But we have to act as though they are capable. We can't afford not to.

#73 Cartman

It's not that far from Iran to Israel... I'm sure if they had the functioning nukes to pull it off, there'd be plenty of entities lined up to supply them with a viable means of delivery under the table. Just my guess though...

The UN's inaction, as well as the rest of the civilized world might just cause a world-wide eruption of radioactivitiy. Maybe it is needed medicine.

Little Israel has done everything she could to appease and make peace with these Muslim monsters. With her back pushed against the sea, perhaps she will find the fortitude to defend her borders and her children. With Olmert who knows?

If it comes down to it, we know the US hasn't the will or moral compass to defend Israel. While I still have hopes that corrupt world powers will curtail Iran's nuke program-if worse comes to worse, I pray Israel will protect herself. If a little fall-out radiation falls upon Russia, China and the EU...well what is the saying...? When you make an omelette you have to break some eggs.

Maybe the realization of a nuclear exchange will be the catalyst the world needs to stomp on Irans throat.
I doubt it.

Adrenalyn #74..... That would be a refreshing turn of events....... Just say it like it is and watch the Dems try and spinn the truth....... That would (almost) be worth reading the MSM again.! LOVE IT!

The real target would be the brain trust. Blow the facilities and you set them back 5 years or so. Go after the brains and you set it back a generation.

Totalitarain regimes tend to not trust its people so such people would must likely be centrally located and soft targets relative to facilities.

However are we will to see the images of dead children being dug out of the rubble? After all the brains will have families and to get them you'd have to strike not while at work but at home in the soft target.

To get 20 "brain" targets your going to have 80-100 collateral kills.

Do we have the cajones?

#73 Cartman

With regards to Iranian retaliation, am I just out of touch or misinformed? Last I heard, they don't have a delivery system to send a nuclear postcard.

I wouldn't completely bank on that. If they sent a sub full of shihads into Tel Aviv, it may or may not be detected.

And During the 1930's the US Navy had war plans in case of a war between the US and UK. I'd be MORE worried if they didn't have plans.

-S-

#69 rabidsquirrel

Yeah, but now that they're no longer secret, Adriana can develop a defensive strategy to resist your wily charms.

Such plans among hetero men could hardly be considered "secret" in any case. Her present plan leaves her invulnerable anyway.

/but I'll keep planning, just in case ;D

Iran's plan for destroying Israel, pre-fission bomb, came out about a year ago. It involves terrorist dirty bombs/chem weapons and radioactive payloads on Shahab-3's. Which they've proven they can ripple fire in huge quantities. That missile test showed their plan for avoiding any BMD.

#80 savage_nation

He's talking Israel. I don't think they could get one in there. They open them all up and look.

I have no doubt in my mind that tomorrow, The Times will print a report about Israel's secret plan to destroy England by using their Jew claws.

I am getting a sense that the Times (and most other media) has sided with the Arab Muslims and with the Left wingers to take Israel out.

Over my dead body.

#44

How about an army of Snake Pliskens!

#61 Killian Bundy

Thanks for the link.

The whole "Rods From G-d" thing kept coming up on StrategyPage a couple of years ago. The consensus from experts was that;

1. Ablation would probably burn up such projectiles before impact, or at least distort them enough to deprive them of the pinpoint accuracy that such a package demands to be effective.

2. The expense of the support systems of an orbital "rifle" like that would be a few orders of magnitude higher than the ISS.

3. And ultimately, it would be simpler and cheaper (not to mention more flexible) to deliver such weapons by Fractional Orbit Bombardment (FOBS), launched from a land base or, for that matter, a Fleet Ballistic Missile submarine. Either system could deliver such a "physics package" with the same or greater accuracy, equal kinetic energy at impact, less tendency for them to be "burnt up" enroute (enclose them in a standard RV until mid/high altitude release), and would be much less of a pain in the fundament to operate and maintain. (Not to mention being a lot easier to conceal, overall.)

As for the "suborbital bomber", that's basically a retread of Dr. Eugen Sanger's "Antipodal Bomber" proposal from World War Two. Overall, it's less flexible, more expensive, and generally less effective than a plain old ICBM.

What really worries me is that the guy who wrote this is apparently teaching budding U.S. Navy officers. Now that's a scary thought.

cheers

eon

#38 GreenSoccer 1/6/2007 03:16PM PST

They may have plans but I doubt they'll do it.

Yeah.

That's what they said about Hitler invading Poland, Green.

First they tell you what they're going to do.
Then they do what they said they were going to do.
Then they crow about doing what they did.

Same plan every Century.

Just different people.

~Norsk Troll

#75 M. Bensson-Levi,

100%. If Israel decides to do this they can't just half-ass it. If they just use conventional weapons, and merely set back production, then eventually they will lose.

Tehran makes a nice, no half-measures, sore-thumb target just sitting there. I don't think the Israelis have the balls, frankly.

Neither do we. Not as a first strike.

I can see why our enemies believe we won't hit back. I hope they are wrong.

OT: What a Burqa is good for

A woman robbed a Center City bank yesterday and fled with an undisclosed amount of cash, police said. The robber, dressed in Muslim clothing and wearing a pair of silver eyeglasses, walked into the Wachovia Bank branch at Broad and Walnut Streets about 2:10 p.m. and gave a teller a demand note, police said. The robber escaped after receiving the cash, police said.

I suppose I stand corrected on Iran's capabilities to deliver a nuclear strike. Guess I'll head back to the Lizard Lounge, where my ignorance is tolerated. ;-P

#42 Rain Patriot 1/6/2007 03:16PM PST

#26 EtNorskTroll

Muhammed (Please Beat Until Hamburger).

Did you just make that up?

'Cause I like that.

Yep! That one's of my own invention. They come real easy to me while I'm reading the Islamic Holy Writings that tell of how 51-year old Muhammed (Pig's Blood Upon Him) married a 6-year old girl and then had sex with her when she was 9...and how 'allah' says that he is the "Perfect Man" & "a timeless example for all ages" and all men should emulate him and his conduct.

Yeah. Suuuuuurrrrrrre, allah.

Sure he is.

*spit*

~Norsk Troll

Maybe the Israelis have a "secret plan" to Jew their way into the economies of the world and get rich!

Maybe they have a "secret plan" to destroy the Times building in London?

Why is the Times keeping this a secret?

#36

If the Iranians really do have some purchased nukes, it's even more (not less) imperative that someone strike them ASAP. Reason? It would imply strongly that they are furiously working at developing many more (and bigger) nukes sufficient to render a FATAL blow to both the US and Israel.

The fallacy I see on nearly every blog is that everyone assumes that Iran will one day do a "demo nuke strike" on one of our major cities (say, NY or DC). The thinking goes that this would be non-fatal, and that we would then have the moral justification to annihilate them in a retaliatory strike.

But what if they are actually going for a total knockout, such as embedded nukes in our top 20 cities, in a single coordinated attack? Not only would the majority of our population by killed, but so would most of our industrial capacity, financial institutions, food production and distribution, etc.

Why are we willing to sit patiently and wait for such a strike? Knock them out NOW.

The US has contingency plans for all sorts of unlikely scenarios. I trust Israel has similar, if more regional plans. So what is the Times point ?

#93 hans ze beeman

I predicted that. I predicted that. I predicted that. I predicted that......

#84 Dr. Shalit:

And During the 1930's the US Navy had war plans in case of a war between the US and UK. I'd be MORE worried if they didn't have plans.

The scariest war plan I ever read was the complete version of OPLAN 4102, the Single Integrated Operation Plan (SIOP) for the defense of Western Europe against Soviet invasion. I had a copy in one of the safes in my office in the mid-80s.

I'm pretty sure it's still classified Top Secret, so I won't go into detail, but a key feature was something known as a "nuclear pulse" along the Inter-German Frontier (the border between East and West Germany).

The old Vietnam quote about "destroying the village in order to save it" came to mind every time I looked at that document.

I have always wondered what military objective would be accomplished by nooookiiiiinnnnn meca.

Seems to me that type of strike would be analogous to Doolittle's raid on Tokyo. Purely psychological.

I would think if you wanted to strike a death blow against "Islam"...just outlaw it in the western world and send em all home.

Then institute a containment policy a la the Truman Doctrine and wait for Islam to implode.

#89 eon

ultimately, it would be simpler and cheaper (not to mention more flexible) to deliver such weapons by Fractional Orbit Bombardment (FOBS), launched from a land base or, for that matter, a Fleet Ballistic Missile submarine. Either system could deliver such a "physics package" with the same or greater accuracy, equal kinetic energy

Do we have it?

/IIRC, the last Black program to be acknowledged was the B-2 and that's '80s technology

#95 EtNorskTroll,

Mo the pedophile has always bothered me more than Mo the beheadin' caravan raider.

He may or may not have really been the "great warrior" he claimed to be, but "child rapist" isn't something you make up to burnish your resume.

Gah.

Right Side:

The U.S. Navy is busily sending carrier battle groups to the Persian Gulf. ... The tone of the Saudi news media has notably sharpened toward Iran in recent weeks--they're now calling Iran a worse problem than Israel-Palestine, which is a BIG change for them. We may be seeing something truly amazing taking shape here: an alliance between America, Israel and Saudi Arabia against Iran.

Everything sounds wonderful except for the leadership of Israel and the US--two weaklings who have blanched at the prospect of shedding their enemies blood. Political will counts for a lot, and we're lacking it sorely in both countries.

Of course, if we don't move first, Iran will force the issue of war upon us on their terms and their timetable.

I'm of several minds on this:

1. Since I question the mainstream media on most everything, I don't necessarily trust this piece of British reporting.

2. I agree with those who say it's a matter of course that Israel would have a plan on how to deal with Iran.

3. Somebody will eventually have to deal with Iran, and it will either be the US or Israel.

4. Sometimes I'm glad for my slightly paranoid passion for preparedness. I couple of months of food, water, etc., is not a bad idea during weird times like this...

# 97 THX-42

We all know that isn't going to happen, so do you have any other ideas ?

#54 Right Side

"... If so, this is a confirmation that my suggested "divide and conquer" approach against radical Islam is the right idea: What we need is not so much to spread democracy in Saudi Arabia and Iraq, but to nudge them to oppose Iran...."

Or perhaps we should get the radical elements in Islam to overplay their hands so that everyone around them consents (tacitly) to the idea of them getting 'cut down'....?

Seems that by giving "Ahm-onna-jihad" enough rope, he has done the work of stringing himself up.

Who wants to pull the lever?

~Norsk Troll

#105 Palandine,

Guns, ammo, and a sharp knife :-)