LGF

 RetweetDollard: What No One's Telling You About the US-Iran Talks

Wed, May 30, 2007 at 3:17:22 pm PDT

I admit I feel a bit better about that US-Iranian diplomatic meeting after reading Pat Dollard’s post today: What No One Is Telling You About Our Talks With Iran.

(I would have felt better still if the Navy had sailed into the Straits of Hormuz without the meeting part.)

Watching the pundits discuss our historic meeting with Iran, you would have mostly heard despair at the notion that we have no leverage in these talks, and so therefor why would Iran give on anything? Why would they stop waging war against us in iraq if they have nothing to fear? To all the experts in the media, the whole thing seemed like some grand puzzlement. Was it just an attempt to appease the administration’s domestic critics who have been chiding it for not engaging in diplomacy ( a vaguery if there ever was one ) with the world’s top terrorist? No one you heard from could really quite grasp what was going on.

For some reason, no one told you that just 5 days before Monday’s talks, an entire floating army, with nearly 20,000 men, comprising the world’s largest naval strike force, led by the USS Nimitz and the USS Stennis, and also comprising the largest U.S. Naval armada in the Persian Gulf since 2003, came floating up unnanounced through the Straight of Hormuz, and rested right on Iran’s back doorstep, guns pointed at them. The demonstration of leverage was clear. And it also came on the exact date of the expiration of the 60 day grace period the U.N. had granted Iran.

And it came just a few weeks after Vice President Dick Cheney had swept through the region and delivered a very clear and pointed message to the Saudi King Abdullah and others: George Bush has unequivocally decided to attack Iran’s nuclear, military and economic infrastructure if they do not abandon their drive for military nuclear capability. Plain and simple. Iran heard the message as well, and although a lack of leverage may seem clear to America’s retired military tv talking heads, it is not so clear to the government in Tehran.

The message to both Iran and Syria is that if the talks in Baghdad fail, the military option is ready to go.

And let’s face it. This is pretty damned intimidating.

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383 comments

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1 Fjordman  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:20:01pm

I really, really hope there will be a strike against Iran, soon.

2 Insert Clever Name Here  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:20:42pm
nearly 20,000 men, comprising the world’s largest naval strike force, led by the USS Nimitz and the USS Stennis, and also comprising the largest U.S. Naval armada in the Persian Gulf since 2003

Dang, I love our military!

(Just reading that gave me goose bumps of patriotism.)

3 Atoz  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:20:44pm

Wow...

4 JCM  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:20:50pm

Dollard's mouth to God's ear.

5 mickthemick  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:21:26pm
The message to both Iran and Syria is that if the talks in Baghdad fail, the military option is ready to go.

Godspeed to our forces, if it comes down to the military option. I am not a warmonger. But, I am an Amercian, and that means I am on our side. When somebody screams "Death to America," I believe we should take them seriously, and take action. Especially when they are developing a nuke capability.

6 akak  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:21:38pm

After the immigration fiasco, you trust Bush understands Iran?

/don't get me wrong-all for it!

7 GregInSeattle  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:21:56pm

Lets hope there's a lot of messaging going on we don't know about. Like, "You better come clean by September 1st, or it's lights out for y'all. Have a nice day."

8 rappmandu  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:22:19pm

In terms of optics, at least the US will be able to say it tried diplomacy, even if it was just going through the motions.

9 Charles the Hammer  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:22:25pm

There is something to be said about this. Politicians can't always use public forums/media to announce intentions or positions. The idea that our government hasn't just waged a pulpit war, as Dinner Jacket has, as seen in that last video post of his rants, proves that we are going in as some subservient, beaten power brought low by "Allah" is a perspective Dinner Jacket is *trying* to get us to believe.

In truth, the movement of the Navy into its current position is a much stronger message to Iran than any words could convey. Especially to a nation, and a government, that only respects force.

the sinner,

Charles

10 simonml  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:22:44pm

The only way this will work is if the worldwide media picks up the story (the REAL story, not the Iran-as-a-victim story) and sheds light on the fact that Iran is seeking to obtain nuclear military weapons for the express purpose of 1) gaining entry into an elite group of nations who possess said weapons (thus stroking their ego) and 2) "wiping Israel off the map"

Otherwise big bad USA is at fault again

11 mickthemick  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:23:14pm

#5 mick

But, I am an Amercian

Albeit one who does not always exercise his Constitutional rights to the preview button. Double GRRR.

12 Insert Clever Name Here  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:24:26pm
The message to both Iran and Syria is that if the talks in Baghdad fail, the military option is ready to go.

It was (IIRC) one of the LGF military people who said don't be surprised what is going on behind the scenes, couched diplomatically of course.

13 Fjordman  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:24:37pm

#5: Iran is a disintegrating nation. Give them a push. And drop ten million copies of Ali Sina's book in Farsi across the country.

14 jcm  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:26:06pm

To paraphrase:

US - We are are not gonna' let you build that nuke.
IRAN - Whose we fool?
US - Me, and the Reagan, the Stennis, the Lincoln, the 101st, the 82nd, 509th Bomb Wing...

15 TimeQuake  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:26:08pm
the military option is ready to go.

Faster, please.

16 bulwrk  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:26:37pm

One big stick ya got there.

17 1SG(ret)  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:26:41pm

Unless we are prepared to use it, it's just a show. I really hope we are prepared to use it. I, like FC am not sure anymore. I didn't think I would ever feel this way.

Top

18 oilbertan  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:28:41pm

Thanks for that Charles, now I feel better about this "dialogue". That said I still don't see how one can make a deal with someone like Ahmacompleteidiot. The deal with Kim Puke Sun doesn,t seem to be going as the diplomats planned and these two are cut from the same bolt of cloth. This is one of those days when I sort of hope that the dhimmis do win in 08 just so the American people can be forcefully reminded that the POTUS needs to be someone with principles not a flip flopper like all the dhimmi candidates. Then I come to my senses and hope Fred or Rudy wins so we can all (including me up here in Canuckistan) can remain safe.

19 Sharmuta  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:38:46pm
Vice President Dick Cheney had swept through the region and delivered a very clear and pointed message to the Saudi King Abdullah and others: George Bush has unequivocally decided to attack Iran’s nuclear, military and economic infrastructure if they do not abandon their drive for military nuclear capability.

OH! And here so many tried to tell me he'd do nothing. The man said he wouldn't let this happen. I believed him then, and I believe him now. Shocking that the msm would lead you astray, huh? Misinform you? Let you think less of the President? President Bush is not perfect, but I believe he takes his role to defend this nation seriously.

20 Shug  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:40:06pm
The message to both Iran and Syria is that if the talks in Baghdad fail, the military option is ready to go.

I doubt that. They don't believe it. We don't believe it.

Iran knows that for as long as they can remember , they can push us around and we won't do a damned thing about it.

21 rappmandu  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:40:46pm

Being seen holding talks with the Great Satan has gotta hurt Ahmadinejad's jihadi street cred. Watch out for Adam's jazz hands, Mahmoud!

22 Fjordman  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:41:41pm
President Bush is not perfect, but I believe he takes his role to defend this nation seriously.

Then why has he allowed a more or less open border to Mexico for seven years, allowing tens of thousands of potential terrorists to cross the border along with millions of illegals?

23 Thanos  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:42:56pm

The seriousness of the situation is not to be underestimated. We have an invasion fleet in the Gulf, (if you hit the memorial day post at my site there is a video of the fleet sailing into the gulf)

The other side of this : the Iranians have shore batteries, C-802's and other missiles. They also have crazed Basiji in some of their forces. One twitchy finger their side and the ballon goes up.

24 jcm  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:43:16pm

#19 Sharmuta

President Bush is not perfect, but I believe he takes his role to defend this nation seriously.


If there is one thing GWB gets it's this. People forget he qualified and served as a fighter pilot, at the time his bird was an interceptor single function airplane whose sole purpose was to kill an enemy bomber before it got to the US.

I think he still thinks that way.

Kill a threat before it delivers.

25 RJ_in_Reno  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:43:49pm

I see now. Bush wags the dog in Iran as they slip the amnasty bill in through the back door. Sneaky.

26 Shug  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:44:06pm

Attn Atlanta Lizards :

Would somebody please go stand in front of Grady Hospital with a sign that says : Thousands of Illegal Aliens brought TB to America today

sorry for the early OT

27 shanimal1918  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:45:27pm

OT: I'm in the UK trying my best to avoid watching any of the dozens of BBC channels. Tonight I watched the news on some other station where they gave a Hamas spokesman a pulpit to spew a bunch of BS. The thing that just didn't seem right is this guy admits to knowing that the missing BBC reporter is still alive. How do you know they asked? Well because he is in contact with the group holding him as prisoner. WTF is up with that? I would have started torture right away. Loud music and panties on the head for you, mister terrorist.

28 pat  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:45:57pm

Watching Fox. All three panelists very happy with amnesty bill and all Republicans who oppose it are unAmerican hicks. Simple solution. Leave the Party.

29 Bill Amos  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:47:16pm

Is word that Bush warned Iran to stop supplying the Insurgency in Iraq. That was the key issue as much as the nuclear issue.

30 akak  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:47:31pm

due diligence dang wheres that does not equal symbol = attack on Iran

31 Kenneth  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:47:49pm
For some reason, no one told you that just 5 days before Monday’s talks, an entire floating army, with nearly 20,000 men, comprising the world’s largest naval strike force, led by the USS Nimitz and the USS Stennis, and also comprising the largest U.S. Naval armada in the Persian Gulf since 2003, came floating up unnanounced through the Straight of Hormuz, and rested right on Iran’s back doorstep, guns pointed at them. The demonstration of leverage was clear. And it also came on the exact date of the expiration of the 60 day grace period the U.N. had granted Iran.

Not blow my own horn, but in fact, I told you about that yesterday and was, by some folks here, roundly thumped for my pains.

32 akak  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:48:36pm
Is word that Bush warned Iran to stop supplying the Insurgency in Iraq. That was the key issue as much as the nuclear issue.

Crocker...lol

33 BabbaZee  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:48:52pm

#19 Sharmuta

I no longer believe him, and it was not the "MSM" that "led me astray.

It was his own words and deeds and the words and deeds of the administration he is in charge of that led me to
"no longer believe him"

34 funky chicken  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:49:35pm

Sure, trust Bush.

Yeah, it's worked so well for us this far.

Um, there is quite an interesting bit of action in theatre. Some very interesting deployments that I don't know about and can't discuss.

Is it just a SHOW of force? Or does it indicate willingness to actually USE force?

And if force is used, will it be a half-assed thing like they are doing in Iraq, sacrificing our best and brightest to bring "freedom" to more muslims?

Admittedly, most Iranians are a notch above most Iraqis in my rather limited experience, but the Israel hatred probably isn't much different.

35 Thanos  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:49:47pm

Ken, had a post on this 5/23

36 Hot Rod Kid  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:49:48pm

How many American troops have the Iranians killed in Iraq by supplying the al-Sadr Shiites IED technology? And why haven't we hit Iran back, yet?

37 ChenZhen  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:51:22pm

Is this the same Pat Dollard who "broke" the "Exclusive" Official 11 Point Plan for Victory in Iraq (complete with spelling errors and what appeared to be his own comments in parentheses)?

Yep

38 selpaw  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:51:30pm

33 BabbaZee & 34 funky chicken

The spin STOPS here.

39 Thanos  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:51:45pm

#36 Hot Rod

The sad thing is that we knew about Iranian involvement back in July, and it's just become big news the past couple months.

40 Yank in the EU  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:51:46pm

Folks yesterday laughed when it was noted (by me and others) that the US Navy had moved towards Iran in tandem with these talks.

Again, Cox and Forkum got it exactly wrong, there is no American-Iranian partnership that was struck. That is pure MSM spin and BS.

41 funky chicken  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:51:52pm

Bill Bennett's been talking about the huge naval fleet in the area for a while on his radio show. Fred Thompson talked about it (I believe) two weeks ago when he was guest hosting the Paul Harvey radio show...

This hasn't been a secret or anything.

It's meaningless unless it's not.

42 BabbaZee  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:52:39pm

Ken

You keep putting your foot in your mouth when you think I am not here, lol.

This guy's article changes nothing about what I see happening here and is no reason for you to claim you are so right or blow a horn or intimate that me and funky "thumped" you.

I have been extremely gracious, you have been doing the "thumping", if anyone.

I am very tired. I am not having this same argument with every person who thinks I am nuts on this thread, LOL

Anyone who wants to know my opinions on this can read at my blog or click my football for the posts in the related threads.

43 Insert Clever Name Here  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:53:37pm
Shocking that the msm would lead you astray, huh? Misinform you? Let you think less of the President? President Bush is not perfect, but I believe he takes his role to defend this nation seriously.

I completely agree with your assesment of the MSM. However some people were angry that the administration would meet them on Memorial day. Doing it that day looks bad, that's all.

Some of us who like and support him would take him more seriously (about security and defending the nation) if he did something about the borders. Even TB patient - guy drove right across the Canadian boder.

(I debated even posting this because I don't want to start a fight, here. But President Bush is driving me crazy. Tough on this issue, lame on that one...)

44 funky chicken  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:54:16pm

The Mullahs and their allies like Al Sadr are all hideously ugly...shudder...look very Arab in contrast with the quite sexy looking Persian types I studied with years ago.

45 selpaw  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:54:27pm

#36 Hot Rod Kid


Good question. Don't hold your breath waiting for an answer.

46 Fjordman  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:54:42pm
Watching Fox. All three panelists very happy with amnesty bill and all Republicans who oppose it are unAmerican hicks. Simple solution. Leave the Party.

It's a fraud. And this is all over the Western world. There is no real debate about mass immigration at all, the established parties, including many of the so-called right-wing ones, cooperate on killing real debate on the issue. Yet in the middle of the largest population boom in human history, the ensuing permanent tidal wave of migration is probably the greatest single challenge our societies are faced with this century. For how much longer can we have a system that blocks real debate about the most important issue of our age?

47 Kenneth  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:55:20pm

#18 oilbertan

Thanks for that Charles, now I feel better about this "dialogue".

If you read the reports about what was actually said at the meeting, (as opposed to the media spin) it wasn't a dialogue. The US told Iran to stop arming the terrorists. They showed Iran the solid evidence they have on them. They told Iran they expect their behavior to change.

The Iranians ignored all that. They made no comment what so ever about it. They changed the subject and offered to train the Iraqi army, they called for the US to withdraw, they said the US occupation was the cauese of the insurgency. The suggested a Trilateral Security Mechanism. (All Democractic Party talking points, by the way.)

The media swallowed the Iranian statements whole, and largely ignored the real US message.

48 BabbaZee  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:56:58pm

#38 selpaw 5/30/2007

Oy.
I feel like the Kotzker Rebbe:
UNDECEIVE YOURSELVES!

49 pat  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:57:32pm

46 Fjordman
Right you are. Elitists theorists that would destroy the culture to prove someone else wrong. Party thugs.

50 BabbaZee  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:57:38pm

Ken

I am starting to think you work for the State Department

51 Jimmah  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:58:45pm

The thing is, Ahmedinejad seems to think the USA is all washed up - that it doesn't have the balls to lift a finger against him - so will this floating army have the desired effect? I doubt it.

52 funky chicken  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:59:27pm

Yank and Kenneth please

53 akak  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:59:29pm

Quartet plans June talks with Israel, Palestinians

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

who wants in on the Pali state oh by 8 pool?

54 MacBoy  Wed, May 30, 2007 3:59:55pm

Tonight I watched the news on some other station where they gave a Hamas spokesman a pulpit to spew a bunch of BS.

shanimal1918

That'll be Ghazi Hamad, spokesbeard for Hamas, talking with Jon Snow on Channel 4 News. And wasn't that the same Ghazi Hamad, spokesbeard for Hamas, who was also guest of honour of the Guardian over the weekend at the Hay Literary Festival?

But wait...what's wrong with this picture? Isn't that the same Hamas that the British Government lists as a Proscribed Organisation under the Terrorism Act 2000? So what's he doing in my country?

I wrote the following to Tony Blair at the weekend. I'm not expecting a reply:

Prime Minister

I would like very much to know the reason that Ghazi Hamad (a member of Hamas and a spokesperson for the Palestinian Government), was allowed to enter the country to attend the Hay Festival as an honored guest of the Guardian Newspaper this weekend?

It is my understanding that Hamas is an organisation proscribed under the Terrorism Act 2000.

I hope that you can see your way to answering a question not from someone who vehemently opposes your government, but from one who voted for it on three occasions.

Many thanks in advance

Mac

55 pat  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:01:34pm

BabbaZee
Just for you. :)
[Link: theimaginaryworld.com...]

56 Jimash  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:01:37pm

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

Thiis is the important talk.
Dear Mr Pres.
Give up Kosovo.
Save Poland.
Destroy Iran.

57 Yank in the EU  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:02:09pm

#36 Hot Rod Kid

And why haven't we hit Iran back, yet?

Well, this would likely start a full-on war with Iran, while we are running the Iraq counter-insurgency war and the Afghanistan war against the Taliban. Since I know little about how we would go about a full-scale war with Iran (which is likely what they would do), what has to be ready and place for that to happen? The first thing, apparently, is that we would have to seal and protect the Straits of Hormuz with our Navy. Again, I have little idea of how this huge air-sea operation would play out.

58 akak  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:02:39pm

yikes Taliban foot baths at U M...nothing to see here

59 funky chicken  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:02:41pm

46 Fjordman And the GOP elitists will succeed in killing the GOP, with the help of the president those same elitists told us was so wonderful back in 1999, and we had to make him POTUS blah blah.

Well, I'll be happy to back the democrat party here in GA since my democrat representative is great in illegal immigration and both my GOP senators voted to keep the instant amnesty provision in the bill.

Hey, mission accomplished?

Remember, GA gave us democrat Zell Miller.

60 Sharmuta  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:02:50pm

51 Jimmah

The thing is, Ahmedinejad seems to think the USA is all washed up - that it doesn't have the balls to lift a finger against him

Guess he's not alone.

61 NY Nana  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:04:11pm

#26 shug

I am so anti-illegal that I could get in big trouble with any asshole who is actually for them..The guy with TB who acted so irresponsibly is an American. He shoud be in a prison hospital for what he did. He is in Federal quarantine, and the TB is not as contagious as they thought, but still...first person in Fed. quarantine since 1963. The CBC has been lax, and there are no laws to stop him from what he did; no legal means.

The CDC got the results after he flew to Italy for his wedding. His wife tests negative.

62 Kenneth  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:04:21pm

#42 BabbaZee

You keep putting your foot in your mouth when you think I am not here, lol.

Oh, I figured you would be here. By thumping I meant only that I was argued with, at length, by more than one poster. But hey, that comes with the territory. I don't have a problem with it. I don't think you are nuts and I never said anything like that. By the way you did call me "deluded". ;)

My foot is not in my mouth.
My point still stands.
Iran was given a clear message, which they seem to have ignored. War is coming.

63 republic  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:05:26pm

I will feel much better about the current situation when there are many large craters at every nuclear facility in Iran, plus their one and only gas refinery, Ahmadinijihad, al-sadr and the chinless one are no longer wasting valuable oxygen, and Damascus lies in ruin.

64 Jimash  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:06:48pm

and libya gives up again.

65 selpaw  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:06:55pm

47 Kenneth


it wasn't a dialogue.

So the Iranians sat quietly and did not respond or say anything? Even if they failed to respond in words to which was said to them, they spoke. If they responded to anything or proclaimed anything it was DIALOGUE. We sat with them at a table!

Furthermore you wrote the following:

The US told Iran to stop arming the terrorists. They showed Iran the solid evidence they have on them. They told Iran they expect their behavior to change.

We have been telling Iran this from a distance. For how bloody long?
Why the same thing around a table? You do not find this a bit remarkable?

Matter of fact we have told Syria about the same thing but more times concerning Iraq. We also have blown hot air to them for years concerning their little problem with state sponsored terror. NOTHING CAME OF IT.

Sitting around a table telling them the same thing when they know we do not mean business means nothing except we met with them. We exchanged words and handshakes, etc.

Bottom line, we can spin this misstep till Hell freezes over and in the end, what are we going to do?

66 Ben Hur  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:07:22pm

I've said it before.

Historians in the future will not use the MSM, talking heads or the tv "experts" as sources.

They will look to the actions, cite the orders, memos and emails and follow the paper trails.

This event may go (unwillingly; the MSM knows) un-noticed now, but it won't in the future.

67 Thanos  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:07:37pm

Here's an update from Dawn on the 10K Pakistani Illegal immigrants from the earlier thread:

ISLAMABAD, May 29: The Federal Investigation Agency has challenged reports about diplomatic dispatches from the Pakistan Embassy in Greece concerning presence of 10,000 Pakistani illegal immigrants in Turkey for onward travel to Europe.

Commenting on a Dawn report of May 28, the FIA said: “The veracity of the figure of 10,000 as being present in Turkey for pushing them into Greece and Italy is unfounded.”

The statement said the FIA could not agree that it did not have a strategy to counter human smugglers’ moves. It said the agency had formulated a strategy to overcome the menace of human smuggling and as a result the number of deportees had declined in 2007. It said the number of projected deportees for 2007 came to 4,851, compared with 5,165 in 2006, 13,316 in 2005 and 9,017 in 2004.

Meanwhile, Dawn stands by the report that was based on a dispatch from Pakistan’s Ambassador to Greece Rasheed S. Khan to the additional director-general (immigration), FIA, who received it on May 15. A copy of the dispatch dated May 9 is available with Dawn.

Before the dispatch, the ambassador had talked on phone with the said officer and had also sent a copy of the dispatch to the director-general (Europe) of the foreign affairs ministry.

The ambassador among other things had written that “according to information volunteered by some recent arrivals some 10,000 Pakistani immigrants are being held back in Turkey by the agents and to be pushed into Greece and Italy after announcement of fresh measures for legalisation of illegal immigrants”.

The very fact that the FIA has confirmed receiving over 21,000 illegal immigrants from Europe and its admission that only deportation can be the criterion for judging the extent of human smuggling is sufficient to prove that it has no idea as to how many people are staying in Turkey or Greece and Italy as illegal immigrants who must have travelled on fake documents with the commission and omission of the FIA staff through different routes.

If the FIA claim on the number of illegal immigrants is accepted, it means that a senior ambassador posted at one of the most important foreign destinations wrote irresponsible dispatches to its head office back home. The responsibility lies either with the FIA or the foreign affairs ministry and is a clear case of cover-up

68 akak  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:08:02pm

Russia & China voted against Hariri tribunal..

dadgummit why did Jack Bauer have to jump off that cliff?

69 BabbaZee  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:09:04pm

I searched Dollard's site for

Iraq Study Group

and James Baker

no hits.

He does not have the entire picture.

70 BabbaZee  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:10:25pm

#55 pat 5/30/2007 4:01:34 pm PDT


{PAT!}

THANKS!

71 akak  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:10:37pm
Jimash 5/30/2007 4:06:48 pm PDT

and libya gives up again

oh puhlease

/good thing Blair is going! if he can't even figure Technicolour dreamcoats boy!

Blairs legacy with Libya!

72 Jimmah  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:10:44pm

#60 Sharmuta

As I said, I have my doubts, although I must stress that I'd like to see them proven groundless. To me, America's current position is like Team America's when Alec Baldwin warns them that if they try to take any action against Kim Jong Il, "this audience will rise up against you".

73 Fjordman  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:10:52pm
And the GOP elitists will succeed in killing the GOP, with the help of the president those same elitists told us was so wonderful back in 1999, and we had to make him POTUS blah blah.

I still hope there will be a strike against Iran. That would redeem Bush somewhat. I would probably still have supported his re-election with Kerry as the alternative, but in general, Bush has been a great disappointment, and the War on Terror the most expensive fraud ever pulled on the American public. 9/11 has been grossly mishandled by Bush and his cronies.

74 pat  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:10:52pm

Babba, I left something for you at #55

75 Ben Hur  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:11:19pm

Mac

I hope that last bit was a lie.

76 funky chicken  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:11:24pm

57 Yank so now you don't know?

LOL Please it would work like this: FIRE!

We have the assets in place, and even some new and interesting assets. They have been there for a while now...enjoying the balmy climate over there, missing their families back home...

Iran has excellent anti-aircraft defenses. A lot of you who seem surprised by the arrival of the fleet like to argue with me about that. Fine, I get my info from an excellent source.

But the way you start is with missiles and Navy assets. You Tomahawk the shit out of them for days and then start with the B2s from way up high.

Once they are softened up for a couple of weeks you bring in other assets.

That's the easy part.

Iran also has a decent Air Force...nothing we can't handle easily, but we will lose people.

If we are only willing to go in to win the hearts and minds of the Iranian people it's certainly not worth the cost.

77 Kenneth  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:11:28pm

52 funky chicken

Yank and Kenneth please

Please what? Stop saying things you don't want to hear? LGF is not an echo chamber for One True Opinion. You go ahead and say what you think and so will I & Yank.

78 akak  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:11:49pm

I totally agree Babba

like the site tho!

79 Thanos  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:11:59pm

OT are the Spanish insane?

[Link: dawn.com...]

MADRID, May 29: A Spanish court on Tuesday acquitted 11 Pakistanis accused of plotting to blow up buildings in Barcelona, but found five others guilty of lesser charges, including collaborating with a terrorist organisation.

The 11 were arrested in September 2004 and prosecutors said the defendants had been planning to attack high-rise buildings and a shopping centre in Barcelona. The prosecutors requested jail terms of up to 32 years.

But the National Court acquitted them for lack of evidence. However, it said three — Mohammad Afzaal, Shahzad Ali Gujar and Mohammad Choudry — had sent money to Muslim militants. The three suspects received jail terms of five and a half years.

The court said the alleged recipients included the late Amjad Farooqui, who it said was involved in the kidnapping and murder of US journalist Daniel Pearl in 2002 in Pakistan. Another may have been Rabei Osman, an Egyptian on trial now as an accused mastermind of the Madrid terror attacks of March 2004, the court said.—AP

80 Ojoe  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:12:27pm

I hold little hope that the theocrats of Iran will see sense without force, but then again despair is a sin.

However I am glad we have the force,

& I long for a victory celebration.

Portae inferi non praevalebunt.

81 BabbaZee  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:13:32pm

Thank akak that site is killing me, LOL

82 bulwrk  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:14:14pm

Statements of U.S.dissatifaction with Iran's involvement in Iraq,coupled with two carrier stike forces and a marine expeditionary force,will get the Iranian's attention no question.I don't think they view it as a creditable threat aganst thier nuke program just yet(political reasons).
But it should be viewed as a major threat to thier pathetic little navy,air defense networks, communications etc... that would need to be taken out prior to an alpha srike.And that would provide the bloody nose the little Hitler really can't afford right now

83 Irene NYC  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:14:50pm

I'm sure the Iranians let the US know that if military force is used against them they'll release their sleeper cells here in the US.

In a dark way this is a very interesting situation: poker player vs. chess player

84 BabbaZee  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:15:17pm

Pat
I got it and replied somewhere up thread there

I LOVE IT

thanks

I have to do dishes

BBL

85 Jimash  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:15:40pm

#71 akak

Blairs legacy with Libya!

I'm aware. It's a very Putin move.
cynical amd shortsighted. I still think that they will once again (third time) renounce their stance when Tehran...
uh, dissappears.

86 galloping granny  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:15:51pm
#24 jcm 5/30/2007 3:43:16 pm PDT

#19 Sharmuta

President Bush is not perfect, but I believe he takes his role to defend this nation seriously.


If there is one thing GWB gets it's this. People forget he qualified and served as a fighter pilot, at the time his bird was an interceptor single function airplane whose sole purpose was to kill an enemy bomber before it got to the US.

I think he still thinks that way.

Kill a threat before it delivers.

No offense, but serving in the National Guard - even as a fighter pilot - gave one virtually NO understanding of things military during the Vietnam era. Basic training, a little advanced training then back home to play (and I mean exactly that word) "soldier" one weekend a month - unless there was a riot or a flood. .

Today's National Guard serves right along with all the rest and is carrying much of the burden in Iraq. That was the farthest thing from the truth in the '60s.

#33 BabbaZee 5/30/2007 3:48:52 pm PDT

#19 Sharmuta

I no longer believe him, and it was not the "MSM" that "led me astray.

It was his own words and deeds and the words and deeds of the administration he is in charge of that led me to
"no longer believe him"

I have to agree with you Babba. I cannot think of a single thing I have heard from his lips that he has not discarded along the way in favor of something else at this point. I'll consider it all good if we can keep him from giving away the farm in favor of some AmerMexCan abortion of a new "country" and selling Israel down the tubes. (Which is not looking all that unlikely these days, considering the military hardware we are flooding Lebanon and Fatah with.)

87 NY Nana  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:15:56pm

#27 shanimal1918

Re al-Beeb, etc., and their reporters in 'palestine' arab-occupied Israel? Quite a symbiotic relationship between the species.

88 Ben Hur  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:15:57pm
Another may have been Rabei Osman, an Egyptian on trial now as an accused mastermind of the Madrid terror attacks of March 2004, the court said.—

Say it ain't so, Rabbi!

89 BabbaZee  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:17:34pm

#73 Fjordman 5/30/2007 4:10:52 pm PDT


And the GOP elitists will succeed in killing the GOP, with the help of the president those same elitists told us was so wonderful back in 1999, and we had to make him POTUS blah blah.

I still hope there will be a strike against Iran. That would redeem Bush somewhat. I would probably still have supported his re-election with Kerry as the alternative, but in general, Bush has been a great disappointment, and the War on Terror the most expensive fraud ever pulled on the American public. 9/11 has been grossly mishandled by Bush and his cronies.

HUZZAH, FJORDMAN

/dishes

90 funky chicken  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:17:36pm

77 Kenneth the please was for you guys saying we were making fun of you for talking about the navy being there.

It was for the boo-hoo connotation to both of your posts, LOL

91 Ben Hur  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:18:22pm
poker player vs. chess player

I'm so using that.

92 Bearster  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:18:27pm

#57 Yank

There are basically two arguments against attacking Iran, mush and fear.

Mush: what about all the INNOcents?
Fear: how could we possibly win?

Are you arguing by fear?

93 Kenneth  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:18:50pm

#65 selpaw

The US has been doing quite a lot about it. The tempo of operations against the terrorists in Iraq, both Shia & Sunni has picked up. Dozens of Shia militamen have been killed or captured in the last few days. Last week Bush signed a finding authorizing covert action against the regime in Tehran. Today the UNSC authorized the Hariri tribunal to investigate Syrian involvement in the murder of the former Lebanese PM. Lots of other actions over the last few months. Why haven't the Iranians stopped? Because they know it's a fight for their survival.

94 Fish-Man  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:19:06pm

Hey, youse guys fought aome big war with Saddam, Dinja?

An Saddam was tough, but he didn't get anywhere widja, did he?

An you, how much of Iraq did you end up taking?

Yadidn't?

How long did that war take?

An howmany guys didja loose?

Wow, that sounds mighty painful.

Course, it only took us a couplea days to beat Saddam, but you know, we're professionals.

Now, letz tawk about dem Nukes and eye-ee-dees...

95 Yank in the EU  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:20:16pm

#76 funky chicken

Yank so now you don't know?

LOL Please it would work like this: FIRE!

I'm going to skip the personal, patronizing BS, from your above post as well.

Heck, you make it sound extremely easy. Drop some bombs, loose a few people, nothing to it all. What planning or preparations do we need for something like that? Screw it, I guess.

From what I've read the major concerns are contingency issues, mainly about having the ability to prevent terrorism in the Straits and the cross-border warfare. My point would be that, given that the US has to wars running at the moment, it is very possible that our military has number of steps it would have to take before we are fully war ready and prepared to deal with contingencies.

96 Yank in the EU  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:22:27pm

#92 Bearster

I haven't the slightest clue how you gather I am against attacking Iran.

I have supported an attack on Iran since the first reports of their involvement in the Iraq insurgency.

97 scott in east bay  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:22:32pm

I just emailed my dad, the colonel. He will love this.

Personally, I think Bush will cripple Iran before he leaves office. He knows a Democrat president will never do it.

98 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:23:16pm
99 Jimash  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:25:08pm

They are'nt going to back down.

100 akak  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:26:17pm
UN Security Council votes by 10 to 5 abstentions to establish an international court to judge those responsible for the 2005 murder of Lebanese former PM Rafiq Hariri

May 30, 2007, 11:31 PM (GMT+02:00)


Russia, China, Qatar, Indonesia and South Africa abstained from the vote Wednesday, May 30.

Syria-al Qaeda agent holes up in luxury Beirut apartment

ynet

bangs head on wall er...cheap monitors anyone?

101 NiceLass  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:26:22pm

#62 Kenneth

War is coming.

Our current Congress will not declare war on Iran. That would really piss off Code Pink.

102 Kenneth  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:27:15pm

#90 funky chicken

Ok, I wasn't boo-hooing about the navy comments. I thought they were fairly trivial anyway. It was the fact my arguments were completely rejected and I was piled on (quite politely, for the most part).

Look, don't you think maybe this guy Dollard is on to something?

Your description of the coming military action against Iran is very much as I understand how it will be. I don't have your personal sources, but I read lots. My view is this is where we have been headed all along, to Iran. That's one of the reasons why the US invaded Iraq first, to pressure Iran.

Who was it who said "War is diplomacy continued by other means" ?

103 Yank in the EU  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:27:25pm

#95 typo that annoys me: *lose*

104 mama winger  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:27:29pm

Focus George. Focus and carry through. Do not be dissuaded.

God be with you.

105 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:27:35pm

*sniff, sniff*

106 Bearster  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:27:50pm

yank: then my apologies.

I am just getting very frustrated by world events, and I believe the current trajectory leads to a very bad end.

107 MandyManners  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:28:01pm

I knew the naysayers were overwrought.

108 mickthemick  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:28:10pm

FunkyChicken

Iran also has a decent Air Force...nothing we can't handle easily, but we will lose people.

What do you mean by decent? Please link some sources (not a Wiki source, or an Iranian gov't. source, either.) I agree that the way you start is with cruise missles and stealth aircraft to take out the air defences. But, the Iranian defense forces are (to use the Scottish term) shite.

If we are only willing to go in to win the hearts and minds of the Iranian people it's certainly not worth the cost.

Forgive me, I am unclear on your point here. I think that it is pointless to win the hearts and minds of the anti-American, anti-semitic Iranian people. I strongly disagree with those (well-meaning) idiots, Michael Ledeen among them, who keep claiming (figuratively) that Iran is a glass half full. I see Iran as a glass half-empty. Take out the mullahs, and the honeymoon between America and the "anti-mullah Iranians" will last six months, tops. They will go from being an anti-American Khomeinist crowd to being an anti-American LLL crowd. I have said it before and I will say it again, so help me God: the Iranian peple will not give up their nukes or their anti-semitism. They are not America's friends, they never, ever will be, so please stop day dreaming about winning their rotten hearts and minds. They are a lost cause.

109 funky chicken  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:28:18pm

Hey, Ahmadinejad thinks the 12th imam's on his side.

I guess we may get to see if he really believes that.

Our biggest problem is Putin...and the need for "international" legitimacy for any action against Iran.

I really hope 25 RJ in Reno is wrong:

I see now. Bush wags the dog in Iran as they slip the amnasty bill in through the back door. Sneaky.

I really hope he's wrong.

110 mama winger  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:29:59pm

#106 Bearster

the current trajectory leads to a very bad end.


For some.

111 Kenneth  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:30:23pm

#101 NiceLass

Our current Congress will not declare war on Iran. That would really piss off Code Pink.

LOL! Sadly that's true. I hope to God, if the Iranians take a pot-shot at the US Navy, the Commander doesn't have to call Washington for permission to shoot back.

112 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:30:57pm
113 akak  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:31:08pm
#73 Fjordman 5/30/2007 4:10:52 pm PDT

And the GOP elitists will succeed in killing the GOP, with the help of the president those same elitists told us was so wonderful back in 1999, and we had to make him POTUS blah blah.

and I'm sure money from those that count will follow...

gimme a break...forget about it...money follows..whoever whatever

114 MandyManners  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:31:11pm

We're gonna' take away his Happy Meal!

115 mama winger  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:31:13pm

What happens if Iran attacks Israel ?

116 funky chicken  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:32:04pm

Now, I actually hold a tiny, tiny sliver of hope that Robert Gates still has some significant friends in Iran from his CIA Iran/Contra days.

Those assets could be wreaking havoc inside Iranian defense assets as we type away.

That would be a brilliant use of daddy Bush's old guard, and if it turns out to be true, I'll happily admit it.

And I won't even fuss that Kenneth and Yank were mean to me.

117 Jimash  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:32:21pm

I'm with Mick.
There is NO reason to think that we are going to occupy Iran. Just fuck them up.

118 realwest  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:32:36pm

#62 Kenneth - FWIW, I agree with you. War is very definitely coming. Bush wanted the world to see that he tried to reason with the Iranians and it got us no where, so we have no choice but to bomb them back into the stone age (without nukes, I think). Which, when you think of it, isn't that far to go for the Iranians.
Others have attacked your positions (and have perhaps attacked you, I haven't read the entire thread) but the fact is that Bush now has nothing to lose by doing what the Western World truly wants US to do but are too wussified to do themselves: solve the Iranian and Syrian problem.
I believe we will do so. And fairly soon, too.

119 Yank in the EU  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:33:24pm

#90 funky chicken

I couldn't care less if you were making fun of me. Have it at. My point above, rather, was that naval movements were sent as a message at the same time that the ambassador presented his message, which is a valid observation.

120 akak  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:33:41pm
Kenneth 5/30/2007 4:30:23 pm PDT

#101 NiceLass

Our current Congress will not declare war on Iran. That would really piss off Code Pink.

LOL! Sadly that's true. I hope to God, if the Iranians take a pot-shot at the US Navy, the Commander doesn't have to call Washington for permission to shoot back.


do the presidential candidates favour an attack when the Generals do not?

121 kirche  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:34:01pm

if i could only understand bush making all the right moves regarding iran with bush making all the wrong moves regarding immigration, all would be right in the universe for me...

122 tblot  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:34:02pm

I don't know to much but few thing I read and don't think Bush is going to let Iran and the nutjob leaders keep getting a free pass for what he says. The MSM is not telling American the real story but I think Bush is going to give them a BIG story shortly

123 Irene NYC  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:35:07pm

#98 buzzsawmonkey


And they will back down.


I disagree, the mullahs have got nothing to lose at this point if it looks like the US is going to bomb their nuclear facilities, and possibly more. They've bet the house.

124 republic  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:35:55pm

#115 mama winger

What happens if Iran attacks Israel ?

Then The Power That Be destroys not only Iran, but all who have even spoken against Israel, eventually.

125 Alan K. Henderson  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:36:10pm

Seeing the task force, the first image that popped into my mind was the scene in The Longest Day when Major Werner Pluskat, the officer in the Normandy bunker, sees the Allied naval force emerge from the fog.

The second thing to pop in my head was the theme to Jaws...

126 MandyManners  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:36:24pm

115 mama winger

This over Tehran?

127 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:36:25pm
128 goddessoftheclassroom  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:36:36pm

#118 realwest

I was called a "blind supporter" of President Bush because I won't throw him under a bus (so to speak).

This article vindicates me because I still have faith that the president will NEVER sell out our country just to win friends on the other side of the aisle.

I know the immigration bill is a mess, but I have a theory about that, too (of course I might be wrong on this).

129 Kenneth  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:37:08pm

#118 realwest

Thanks, bro.

130 theheat  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:37:22pm
I admit I feel a bit better about that US-Iranian diplomatic meeting after reading Pat Dollard’s post today

Well, I sure don't. Same braindead coaches, different playing field.

So, is this Operation Iranian Freedom, Here's A Stick In Yer Eye, Democracy Coming to U, or the search for more elusive WMDs? Somehow, I'm not thinking there's a whole lot of Europe that is going to help with any heavy lifting in Iran. Not to forget, we have a couple little fires to put out in Iraq and Afghanistan - some unresolved business, if you will.

Sorry, but the rest of the world, and particularly the Arab world, is going to see this as nothing but provocative. If diplomacy and intimidation don't work, here we go again, and we were practically begging for it.

131 funky chicken  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:37:49pm

108 mick the mick You stated my point about the futility of "freeing" the Iranian people from the mullah much better than I did.

I sleep with my source on the Iranian air defenses wink, wink.

He's got sooper sekrit sekurity clearance, BTW.

Studies these things with, er, unusual personal interest for reasons of his own life and limb.

Iran will be able to kill some of our folks with its military, and will not be the pushover that Saddam was is the assessment.

So it's perhaps not worth doing if Bush turns it into another "muslim freedom rally."

132 Jimash  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:38:11pm
What happens if Iran attacks Israel ?

From what I understand, if Iran attacks Israel, their shit falls down in the western desert of Iraq.
BZZZT. Electronic warfare.

133 Yank in the EU  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:38:33pm

#106 Bearster

I believe we are going to attack Iran, if they don't back down from their nuclear program. That's going to be a significant defeat for the jihad and, hopefully, the conservatives will rally despite this border security fiasco.

134 republic  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:38:40pm

#123 Irene NYC

They've bet the house.

The Grand Ayatola has said that he doesn't care "if all of Iran burns", as long as the Islamic mission succeeds around the world.

His words, not mine.

I know exactly how things end up.

I pity the fools.

135 akak  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:38:55pm
tblot 5/30/2007 4:34:02 pm PDT

I don't know to much but few thing I read and don't think Bush is going to let Iran and the nutjob leaders keep getting a free pass for what he says. The MSM is not telling American the real story but I think Bush is going to give them a BIG story shortly

Iranian subs sunk this week? hmm what could happen

136 mama winger  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:39:01pm
Today, Iran's Jewish population is the second argest in the Middle East, after Israel. Reports vary as the the condition and treatment of the small, tight-knit community, and the population of Iranian Jews can only be estimated due to the community's isolation from world Jewry.

[Link: www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...]

"There is another Christian minority that people know little about, these are Iranians who are born as Muslims and then later become Christians," Dibaj said. "Their number is growing day by day. [There] may be around 100,000 [of them], but no one really knows the exact number."

[Link: www.christiansofiraq.com...]

Perhaps these guys can meet up and ...

137 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:39:21pm
138 haakondahl  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:39:27pm

Action with Iran will be over in one day--it has to. Even Iran can be convinced not to invade Iraq, which would be the natural reaction to a full-frontal attack by U.S. carrier and shore based air power. Convince them that if they set foot (overtly) in Iraq, then it will not be their nuclear program we target, but the government itself. All of it.

They need to believe this: We will slap the weapon out of their hand, but if they try to stab us with the other hand, we will kill them. Dead, Dead, Dead.

I participated, in a a tiny minor way, in the 1988 Operation Praying Mantis, in which we shot up a bunch of their oil platforms and sank half of their navy.

I have been waiting for us to finish the 1988 job for a long time. I think that one reason we never have so far is the disastrous VINCENNES shootdown of an Iranian airliner, and we always soft-pedaled after that, to reinforce our argument that we are *not* in fact waging unrestricted total war against Iran. Iran's provocation has finally become so urgent that the lesser risk is to strike.

Wish I Were There again.

139 Intestinal Fortitude  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:39:42pm

God bless the Prez. No bus throwing here.

140 GregInSeattle  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:40:14pm

OT...

Have you guys been listening to Michael Savage? He's saying Bush has signed an executive order to take more power in an emergency...

May 9 Executive Order

Could it be related to an attack on Iran, and the sleeper cells here in the US?

141 mama winger  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:41:03pm

#128 GotC

I was called a "blind supporter" of President Bush because I won't throw him under a bus (so to speak).

I'm with you.

142 bulwrk  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:41:08pm

#95/Yank in the EU

Iranian involvement in killing U.S.toops trumps anything else.To hell with contingencies,I think true Americans will understand.

143 Fjordman  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:41:21pm

The Catholic Church betrays Europe:

Turkey In Europe

"Turkey has also marched on a long road and is marching still. The positions are naturally very different but with people and governments who respect the basic rules of living together, we can have a dialogue and build together a common good in the European sphere and in the sphere of the world community," believes the Secretary of State of the Holy See.

"Including the entry into the European Union?" asks a journalist from La Stampa. "Including the entry into Europe", responds Monsignor Bertone.

144 Kenneth  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:43:13pm

#115 mama winger

What happens if Iran attacks Israel ?

You mean "when" don't you? The UNSC just authorized the Hariri Tribunal. That was a redline for the Syrians. Baby Assad is shitting kittens right now. Next up on the UNSC agenda is Iran's nuke program and tougher sanctions. In my opinion, the shit is about to hit the fan.

My prayers are for the men & women of the US military, and allies, and most especially, for the people of Israel. Iran will try to involve Israel anyway they can. There will be bad days ahead.

145 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:43:53pm

#140 GregInSeattle
I think it's more of a reaction to hurricane Katrina. Incompetent local officials with BDS can really gum up the works in case of an emergency of massive terror attack.

146 squarepeg  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:44:49pm

#109 funky chicken

Our biggest problem is Putin

I dunno. Iran bounced a check on Putin, and he wasn't too happy about it. He'll bray about the unilateralist interventionist bullyist imperialist Bushist, but I bet he won't lift a finger.

147 mickthemick  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:45:12pm

#115 Mamma Winger

What happens if Iran attacks Israel ?

I fear more for Israel than I do the U.S., because Iran has the capability to inflict more damage on that country.

#117 Jimash

I'm with Mick. There is NO reason to think that we are going to occupy Iran. Just fuck them up.

By all means, we do NOT want to occupy Iran. I would rather the U.S. totally destroy that country than occupy it. Why occupy it? What's it worth? For the last several years, I have gotten more and more tired of pundits, etc. insisting that there is a "pro-U.S." element in Iran. There might be an anti-mullah element which has "pro-U.S." trappings. But there are NO (I repeat, NO!) authentic, pro-American elements in Iran. If you think that there are, you have been taking Michael Ledeen far too seriously (not that there's anything wrong with reading his stuff - I like most of it myself.)

148 lawhawk  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:45:32pm

The Iranians know that there is a point past which the US will not tolerate any further actions. However, they also know that the US will tolerate quite a bit just to avoid entanglements overseas.

Kidnappings and proxy wars may be insufficient, but an overt act will bring the hounds of hell to Tehran's doorstep. So, they continue prodding around the edges, seeing just how far they can go - furthering their own interests in the process.

I don't like the fact that we've given them that much leeway, but it also does give the US room to threaten without having to use force because you never know what will be the ultimate line in the sand.

149 FrogMarch  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:45:38pm

OT: This is great. Someone at Huffpo gets it.

We are a formidable market segment, it turns out: we represent a $228.9 billion opportunity to retailers in the LOHAS (it stands for "Lifestyles of Health and Sustainability") category. You can't fault a company for offering greener versions of goods we actually need. But I lose patience with some LOHAS manufacturers' "save the earth" piety. They're still producing, marketing, and packaging a lot of overpriced, nonessential goods, then sending them around the country on trucks that burn fossil fuel. It's the treadmill logic of capitalism applied to a freshly identified market segment.

Green purchasing tells us to vote with our wallets, but it ignores a third choice: not buying at all. I try to resist these green come-ons because I hate to think our strength is based on consumption, instead of more substantive action. I'm appalled by the amount of junk mail I (used to) get from environmental groups, much of it offering to reward donors with cheaply made premiums (how many tote bags and baseball caps can one person use?). Some even have the nerve to offer "affinity" credit cards, which only make it easier to buy more stuff, to consume without a thought for the natural resources that went into making these goods, and for the toll they will take on human health and the environment once we've consigned them to the dump.

via Insta.

150 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:45:42pm
151 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:46:19pm

#143 Fjordman
The Pope seems far more concerned with Reason and Enlightenment than he is with Islam.

152 Kenneth  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:46:19pm

#131 funky chicken

I sleep with my source on the Iranian air defenses wink, wink.


Hey, you got a thing going with Putin? (just kidding)

153 TXMarko  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:47:05pm

What an awesome sight, all those ships. Someone called it an "invasion" force, but I didnt see any troop carriers. Just a buttload of firepower.

An armed society is a polite society! Even DinnerJacket recognizes that bravado and grandstanding just doesn't cut it when the other guy has a Battle Group parked at the curb.

As far as Bush goes, I am extremely upset with his handling of the Immigration deal.

Consider this. Bush is now as "lame duck" as they come. He certainly has no more room to lose in the popularity polls. If his "legacy" is going to be some form of measured success the Middle East, he has limited time to make things happen.

154 Ben Hur  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:47:07pm

Wow. South Africa abstained.

What about all those concerts?

155 squarepeg  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:47:54pm

#102 Kenneth

Who was it who said "War is diplomacy continued by other means" ?

von Klausewitz (sp?)

156 missouri boy  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:48:05pm

We still have a president and state dept. and MSM calling iSLam a religion of peace. IMHO- everyone ought to be buying guns and stocking up on ammo. ROP is coming to your neighborhood soon.
just saying...

157 goddessoftheclassroom  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:48:30pm

#144 Kenneth

I don't want war, but then again, peace is not the absence of war. Sometimes fighting for the justice that is the foundation of peace is better than accepting injustice that tears that foundation down.

Another way to put it is that unless Iran changes drastically, a fight is coming, and I'd rather face that sooner rather than later.

158 kirche  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:48:34pm

just an aferthought - - there was a lot of criticism of the administration that we held talks with iran on memorial day. in hindsight, however, maybe this chosen day was indeed deliberate because the real message being passed along to iran (face-to-face ahmadinejad!) was one of imminent war. quite poetic, if this was the case.

159 scaryfast  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:49:05pm

Military force should only be one component of a strike on Iran. We should demonstrate that this would be an optimal time for the dissidents in Iran to overthrow their government. I'm all in favor of some good old fashioned low tech leaflet dropping. If you wanna go high tech then step on Al Jazeera's satellite transponder with something like Voice of America.

160 nonic  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:49:15pm

See?

(This is to some poster -- forgot who it was -- who was having kittens yesterday or the day before about how everybody knows at least as much as G.W. Bush does and therefore we should institute a new extra-constitutional practice of impeaching presidents based on -- I don't know, what was it? -- distate? disappointment? disenchantment? Somethin' like that.)

161 funky chicken  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:49:16pm

140 Greg Hmmm...interesting. Very interesting.

Again, if Gates and Baker have been busy chopping at Iranian Achilles' heels behind the scenes with old friends in Iran, I'll shout from the rooftops that they are geniuses.

Happily.

However, the 6 years of history of Bush sellouts don't encourage me.

And I hate to say it, but Bush has been terrible on border security and amnesty since 1999. He's a very consistent fellow on that issue.

162 Jimash  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:49:20pm

I am falling in the Kenneth camp.
(Savage joke intended)
Buzzsaw, any rational person woyld hoe that you are right, but they HAVE bet the house and just yesterrday we watched a very belligerent ammadandIneedajihad, rousing the rabble.
They have had plenty of chances to normal up. Not gonna happen.
I also agree that this will be a massive one or two day campaign.
and sleepers are a real threat, but it's more likely that with the head cut off those limbs will slink back into the dark,
than that Teheran will back down
Just like other times and places they probably think that their freinds will rally to their aid.
Luckily we have been disabused of such notions.

163 Kenneth  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:50:09pm

#147 mickthemick

There is a pro-American element in Iran, of a kind. I know many Iranians who are secular & democratic. They don't want the US to invade Iran, but they do want to be rid of the mullahs. If the US invaded in any large way, the pro-US feeling would evaporate pretty fast.

164 galloping granny  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:50:45pm
#151 Killgore Trout 5/30/2007 4:46:19 pm PDT

#143 Fjordman
The Pope seems far more concerned with Reason and Enlightenment than he is with Islam.

If the Fatima prophecies are to be believed, this pope is either the last or next to the last anyway.

165 funky chicken  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:50:48pm

152 Kenneth ROFLOL if only it were so lucrative

LOL

166 Yank in the EU  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:51:15pm

#142 bulwrk

Iranian involvement in killing U.S.toops trumps anything else.To hell with contingencies,I think true Americans will understand.

Perhaps I was unclear by what I mean by 'contingencies'. It is this: if the US is going to start a war with a third country now (and I am %110 for that), it is probable that a number of strategics steps would need to be taken in order to make sure the Persians can't hurt us on the cheap. For example, they could sink the oil rigs passing through the Straits and causing an oil shortage or they could launch a plan to destabilize Iraq, even more so than they are. We'll want to be prepared for these 'contingencies'. I plan to look into this a bit more closely when I have time.

167 sheik yer'mami  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:51:21pm

Iran: Let's get some R E S P E C T !

TURKEY

168 Irene NYC  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:52:17pm

#137 buzzmonkey


They may have bet the house, but they've bet it on a bluff. Deep down, they know it--and deep down, ideology notwithstanding, there are enough of them who still want to live to try and figure out a (face-saving) way to back down.


Well, they can make it very painful for us, and it doesn't have to be in Iran or Iraq. They've got agents around the world that can hit US interests and US allies. And they've got a lot of money and will to back that up.

169 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:52:45pm
170 mickthemick  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:53:47pm

#131 Funky Chicken
First of all, thanks for the reply! :)
Second of all, I respect your reply (re: keeping sources confidential) ;)
Thirdly, I hate to admit we'd lose people to Iranian forces, but that's already happened/happening, isn't it? :(
I think it's a waste of time to think that there are pro-American elements in Iran. We're better off supporting Azeri, Kurdish and Baluchi separatists vis-a-vis the Iranians.

Thank you for sharing your insights!

171 Kenneth  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:54:58pm

153 TXMarko

What an awesome sight, all those ships. Someone called it an "invasion" force, but I didnt see any troop carriers. Just a buttload of firepower.

The armada includes a Marine Expeditionery force of some 20,000. They constitute one hell of an invasion force. Not to invade all of Iran, but to secure key installations, islands etc.

172 Fjordman  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:55:07pm
The Pope seems far more concerned with Reason and Enlightenment than he is with Islam.

Yeah, I know. I'm being as respectful of Christianity as I can, but there are ideas within Christianity that can potentially make its adherents perfect dhimmi material. I've also heard Catholics argue that Political Correctness is the product of Protestant culture, but the craven behavior of the Vatican isn't really impressive, either.

173 Ben Hur  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:55:09pm

Can we assume that the groundwork has started in Iran?

Are the students ready? They must be getting aid from the CIA or opposition/dissident groups.

I think they may be.

It is not like Iraq.

We won't need to "occupy" Iran (inshallah).

Who knows? Have we turned enough of the military leadership.

I think there's a lot that has been going on, setting the stage, that we don't know.

174 Shr_Nfr  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:55:16pm

#115 mama winger - The there will be a few more rads floating around in Iran than there are now.

175 galloping granny  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:55:54pm
#115 Mamma Winger

What happens if Iran attacks Israel ?

Something to consider: historically, never once has a single arab/muslim country attacked Israel all by itself. Always a concerted effort & mass invasion by darned near every country in the mideast.

176 Jimash  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:56:04pm

Yank
They have been preparing for contigencies since last August at least, but

For example, they could sink the oil rigs passing through the Straits and causing an oil shortage or they could launch a plan to destabilize Iraq, even more so than they are.


Is the absolute WORST thing to do.
On the contrary, one of the keys here is to use the expeditionary forces in that fleet to coontrol the oil facilities and continue shipments to China.

177 squarepeg  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:56:26pm

#83 Irene NYC

I'm sure the Iranians let the US know that if military force is used against them they'll release their sleeper cells here in the US.

Ha. They'll instruct their sleeper cells in Mexico to stroll across the border and get busy.

178 Ben Hur  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:56:47pm

about

179 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:57:07pm
180 missouri boy  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:57:11pm

Pointing the big guns at mecca, and all iSLamic holy sites, will do more to end all the fighting, than bombing iran. The fight is with iSLam, but the idiots running the world , does not understand this,-yet. IMHO, again.

181 Thanos  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:58:52pm

There's a lot coming down in Pakistan with corruption cases -- banking fraud, immigration fraud, etc .

America charges Pakistani banker with insider trading

NEW YORK: US prosecutors charged a former Pakistani banker with securities fraud on Tuesday, saying he made nearly $8 million in illegal profits after getting insider information on pending merger deals from a former Credit Suisse investment banker.

Ajaz Rahim, 44, who was country head of investment banking at Faysal Bank in Karachi, faces one conspiracy charge and 25 counts of securities fraud, according to the federal complaint.

Hafiz Naseem, who worked for Credit Suisse’s Global Energy Group in New York, has been charged with one count of conspiracy and 25 counts of securities fraud.

From April 2006 through about February 2007, Rahim received nonpublic information from Naseem about nine Credit Suisse client merger deals and bought securities, netting over $7.5 million in illegal profits, the government charged.

“A warrant has been issued for his arrest and we’re going to seek to execute the warrant,” a spokeswoman for the US Attorney’s office said of Rahim. She would not say whether the warrant was issued in the US or Pakistan. Prosecutors accused Rahim of trading on inside information about acquisitions including Northwestern Corp, Energy Partners Ltd, Veritas DGC, Jacuzzi Brands, Trammell Crow Co, Hydril Company, Caremark RX, John H Harland Co, and TXU Corp. reuters

182 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:59:13pm

#172 Fjordman
It's getting tougher to Catholicism advancing with this Pope at the helm. The Church (and Europe) will most likely survive his rule. Maybe the next one can do better.

183 Kenneth  Wed, May 30, 2007 4:59:50pm

#175 galloping granny

They will do it by proxy. Iran won't attack Israel directly, but they will fight Israel to the very last Palestinian, Syrian and Hezbollah.

184 funky chicken  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:00:40pm

170 mick Of course, how much has our "intelligence community" gotten right over the last few years?

Maybe the Iranian military would fold like a cheap suit.

Maybe Iranian military guys are enough like our military guys that they want to see young lovelies out in short skirts.

They won't want an occupation, but the military might be quite ready to say "good bye and good riddance" to the Mullahs and thier little ankle biting president.

We won't know if we don't try?

185 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:00:42pm

#164 galloping granny
I hadn't heard that before.

186 haakondahl  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:02:17pm

#175 Galloping Granny

Something to consider: historically, never once has a single arab/muslim country attacked Israel all by itself. Always a concerted effort & mass invasion by darned near every country in the mideast.

This is because none of them have had a nuke.

187 funky chicken  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:02:27pm

177 squarepeg LOL yeah, and we've got the president calling all of us border fence advocates "afraid of doing what's best for America"

188 Thanos  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:02:35pm

The fleet also serves as deterrence to Turkey, who's been massing troops on Iraq's Northern border.

189 scaryfast  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:02:54pm

BTW...I turned down a job with a 60 mile round trip commute because of stuff like this. My job now sucks but I can ride my bike to work. $8/gallon gas is gonna suck but maybe it's what the country needs to kick the oil habit.

190 BabbaZee  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:03:08pm

IF (GOD FORBID) a Democrat were President right now ...

and the exact same scenarios were occurring in the world and in the country, the amnesty, etc

BUT lets just limit the example to the meeting with Iran on Memorial Day..
while they hold our people hostage and kill our armed forces and fund the terrorism that the Saudis aren't funding, and three days prior to this bullshit meeting the Iranian President threatened to blow Israel and America off the face of the earth to chants of ALLA AKBAR and DEATH TO ISRAEL from the crowds


I am CERTAIN

CERTAIN


I would be hearing a very different tune right now from many of you.

Intellectual dishonesty and cognitive dissonance as it relates to and manifests out of a person's deeply held "isms" is a very strange thing to behold.

It's like when Pelosi went to Syria - THERE WERE REPUBLICANS WITH HER.

Not a peep.

WAKE UP AMERICA!

191 bulwrk  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:03:30pm

#166/Yank in the EU

I agree 100%

192 mickthemick  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:04:00pm

#163 Kenneth

Hi Kenneth! While I would like to be optimistic re: your friends from Iran, I cannot help but be a pessimist; that is not to say your friends are disingenuous. It's just that I think most Iranian people suffer from the same kind of anti-American and anti-semitic derangement that inflicts most of the Islamic and European worlds. I think the Iranians you know, while probably a genuinely wonderful group of people, are a fringe minority, at best, in Iran. Most of the Iranian people who claim to be pro-American are using that position as a form of rebellion against the mullahs (picture a kid in America in a Che Guevara T-Shirt, and you'll get my point, not that I am comparing the U.S. to Che Guevara, but it's a teenage rebellion kind of thing.)

193 Yank in the EU  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:04:18pm

#176 Jimash

I'm not sure if I'm clear:

Is the absolute WORST thing to do.

Is this referring to Iran's bombing oil rigs in the Straits?

I mean, in the end they would hurt themselves and their trade, but in the short time it has been considered a very likely tactic of theirs - as an act of terrorism and to bring economic / political pressure on the US.

194 Darth Bubba  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:04:24pm

You simply MUST watch that clip while listening to the "Imperial March" from Empire Strikes Back.

Ohhh Yeahhh.

(Apologies if a good minion has already pointed this out - I don't have time to read all posts.)

195 Jimash  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:04:28pm

Ps
Read the Yank wrong.
Sorry Yank. Got they theys and thems mixed up.
Point still stands.

196 hiker  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:05:39pm

Well, I'm damn glad to hear this, because after what I heard over the last couple days I felt no end of disgust, and I also felt obliged to comment on that in a thread yesterday. I am pleased that there was information out there that was not known to us, information that, had it been known, would have raised my spirits and not caused me so much angst. Hell, I knew we had the flotilla in the area; I just didn't know it had steamed into the Straight of Hormuz (I thought it was still out in the Indian Ocean; or, at best, the Arabian Sea).

Oustanding!

197 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:05:59pm

Malaysian Woman Stuck With "Islam"

Malaysia's top civil court on Wednesday rejected a Muslim woman's appeal to be recognized as a Christian, in a landmark case that tested the limits of religious freedom in the moderate Islamic country.

A three-judge Federal Court panel ruled by a 2-1 majority that only the Islamic Shariah Court has the power to allow Lina Joy, who converted to Christianity in 1998, to remove the word "Islam" from the religion category on her government identity card.

"This appeal is rejected," Chief Justice Ahmad Fairuz Sheikh Abdul Halim said. "Apostasy is a matter linked to Islamic laws. It's under the jurisdiction of the Shariah court ... Civil courts cannot interfere.

"She cannot simply at her own whims enter or leave her religion," Judge Ahmad Fairuz said. "She must follow rules."

Moderate, indeed.

198 Jimash  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:06:21pm

#193 Yank

I'm not sure if I'm clear:

Is the absolute WORST thing to do.
Is this referring to Iran's bombing oil rigs in the Straits?

I read you wrong. Sorry. Bombing the oil rigs would be the worst thing WE could do. Preventing the destruction of facilities and continuing oil production is what the expeditionary force is for.

199 BabbaZee  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:07:08pm

#86 galloping granny
Thanks GG

200 Yank in the EU  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:08:05pm

#193 short "term" - (must be tired)

201 Dave the.....  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:08:16pm
I've also heard Catholics argue that Political Correctness is the product of Protestant culture, but the craven behavior of the Vatican isn't really impressive, either.

The Catholic church can be confusing. One day they can be super PC and all touchy feely on things like illegeal immigrants, union organizing, anti-war and even the gay rights thing. But at the same time we have a second consecutive Pope who is a real Catholic (reading about what went on in the 1970's...things could be very different today) and here in St Paul, the respectable moderate Archbishop is retiring next year and his replacement is a hardass when it comes to Catholic beliefs. A move I think is very good. He is going to enforce Catholic teachings. I knew he would be good when the front page of the local paper had a hit piece on him the day after he was chosen.

202 lorien1973  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:09:07pm

It's not the ones on the surface you worry about. It's the ones underwater that are a problem. they have the big weapons.

I'm not so sure that any military action will happen against Iran either way. Bush has no political backing anymore. And lobbing missiles into Iran won't win him any friends in Washington, either.

Iran has it coming, no doubt, but I don't think this president will do it.

203 haakondahl  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:09:18pm

OT I hope this XDR TB bastard is shot attempting to escape his quarantine. This selfish cowardly bastard may potentially have killed hundreds of thousands. I am unaware of any "outbreak" or "epidemic" novel with so fantastic an opening as the outragous crimes committed by this man.

Wait until Italians start keeling over with XDR TB, and they want American blood for what this idiot has done.

TB isn't exactly Ebola, but it will definitely kill you if you cannot treat it, and this bastard has the kind which resists treatment the most. XDR means "Extensively Drug Resistant".

Now he is com;aining about how well-educated he is, how intelligent he is, and how ridiculous he feels it is for him to be held under armed guard. He's lucky I'm not there. I'll bet that Tuberculosis of his is not at all lead-resistant.

204 squarepeg  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:09:28pm

#190 BabbaZee

A moment, please.

The reason we'd be caterwauling about these moves from a Democrat president is that the Dems have TOTALLY broken faith with America on this issue. The context would be different. Specifically, it would be one of guaranteed inaction and lack of follow-up.

Bush has severely disappointed many of us on many issues, but he's sticking to his guns on a few things that count. Will he stick to his guns on this one? At least there's hope.

And those RINOs that went with Pelosi will get no quarter here.

205 Kenneth  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:09:45pm

Iraq the Model has an update from Baghdad,

Imminent Major Battle in Diyala?

After establishing a command center that connects the Provincial council, the city councils and the security forces, Diyala province is about to witness the biggest battle ever to enforce law and bring security.
The purpose of the operations is to rid the province off the militant groups that spread chaos, murdered and displaced the citizens all this time.
The information we have indicate that the authorities will be receive assistance from around a hundred Diyala tribes. These tribes are receiving direct support from the government which is providing them with weapons. The tribes play a remarkable role in watching their neighborhoods and preventing the infiltration of militants at the edges of the province

Diyala province is to the north east of Baghdad, running to the Iranian border. It's the center of the Al Qaeda in Iraq forces.

206 Yank in the EU  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:10:25pm

#198 Jimash

Ah, cool. Right, if Iran could send oil prices to $150/barrel that would wreak havoc on us.

/we need to get those alternative energy programs up!

207 TxMarko  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:11:32pm

Despite having older and poorly maintained equipment, Iran remains a significant military threat.

"Nevertheless, Iran is still a significant military power by Gulf standards. It has some 540,000 men under arms and over 350,000 reserves. They include 120,000 Iranian Revolutionary Guards trained for land and naval asymmetrical warfare. Iran's military also includes holdings of 1,613 main battle tanks, 21,600 other armored fighting vehicles, 3,200 artillery weapons, 306 combat aircraft, 60 attack helicopters, 3 submarines, 59 surface combatants, and 10 amphibious ships."

That is, if they all decide to fight instead of fleeing like the Iraqis did.

208 j.row.  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:12:26pm

Awesome ! The U.S. Military are comprised of very, very special people. They will do what is asked of them WITHOUT asking why.

Hopefully, those brave men and women will "take out" the nuke stuff in Iran.

209 Dave the.....  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:12:29pm

I'm a right winger who loves energy conservation, mass transit, etc. It's too bad the left wing wacko's are the face of energy reduction. The right hand side automatically opposed many sensible measures just because they view it as a liberal position.

210 mickthemick  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:13:14pm

#184 Funky Chicken

They won't want an occupation, but the military might be quite ready to say "good bye and good riddance" to the Mullahs and thier little ankle biting president.

Hi Funky Chicken! Agreed, re: your quote above. There is virtually nobody in Iran who wants U.S. forces to occupy or otherwise attack Iran (the Iranian people have said as much!) I have recently thought that it might be better to support a military coup against the mullahs. The problem is the Pasdaran, and the wrench it would throw into such an op. But, you gotta' figure that there are plenty of good men in the Iranian military who want the mullahs out, and would be enticed by military aid from the U.S. to overthrow the mullahs. I am not advocating such a coup (for a variety of reasons I won't get into, I think that's a bad idea), but I wholeheartedly agree it's a possibilty.

Again, thank you for the post! :)

211 Jimmy Doolittle  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:14:44pm

#153 TXMarko

The 'aircraft carrier' in the middle of the fleet is the Bon Hommme Richard (LHD 6), based in San Diego.

This is an USMC troop carrier, which carries a Marine Corp Expeditionary Force. That's what all the helicopters on the deck are for.

I doubt these Blessed Marines are along just to chear on the Navy Aviators.

212 lucius septimius  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:14:46pm

# 153 TXMarko

Two amphibious support ships that I saw; a Wasp class LHD and what appears to be a Cleveland class LPD (doesn't have the San Antonio class "macks")

Together the two ships alone could carry about 3000 marines plus support choppers and Harrier jets. Main divisional strength would be in a separate rear echelon I suspect.

The three Aegis ships in the picture (Ticonderoga class plus 2 Arleigh Burke class) could level most of Iran on their own.

213 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:17:04pm

Wife of terror suspect 'wanted him and their son to die as Islamic martyrs'


The wife of an Islamic religious leader actively encouraged him to become a terrorist, a court heard yesterday.

Bouchra El-Hor, 24, even told him she hoped their baby son would follow him into "martyrdom", the Old Bailey was told.

he and her husband, 28-year-old Yassin Nassari, were arrested after they flew into the UK allegedly carrying blueprints for missiles and bombs to be used against the West.

The instructions included how to built the long-range Al Qassam rockets used by the Palestinian terrorist group Hamas. There was also a chilling library of extreme Islamic documents, jurors heard.
...
Video footage of beheadings, suicide bombs and executions was also found on the hard drive, along with articles entitled "Virtues of martyrdom in the path of Allah," and "Islamic Ruling on the Permissibility of Self-Sacrificial Operation - Suicide or Martyrdom?"
...
"I am so proud, my husband, and I am happy for you that Allah had granted you this chance to be a Mujihad in the cause of God.

"I really wish I could go with you because I too feel obliged to do all this and look to participate in any way I can.

"God willing, I will do anything in my power to raise our son the best way I can so he can be a righteous Muslim. I will also tell him all about his father so he can be proud of him and follow in his footsteps."

214 funky chicken  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:17:08pm

188 Thanos well, that too LOL

I believe the Turks are Sunni and the Iranians Shiites?

Not that they wouldn't join forces for a nice little Kurdish genocide and infidel fighting before turning on each other.

215 republic  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:17:08pm

#202 lorien1973

Iran has it coming, no doubt, but I don't think this president will do it.

Iran is going to continue with its quest for nuclear weapons, and when they have them, they will use them.

There isn't a Democrat candidate who will defend this nation with serious military.

A John Kerry or an Algore, or Hillary, would sell this country out through appeasement and surrender, in a heartbeat.

Obama doesn't even have the slightest clue of world affairs, at least the reality of world affairs.

If Iran is going to be walloped, it will be by this current Administration, otherwise, the USA won't, no matter what, after that.

Unless there is a Patriot in the Republican party who wins in 2008, the Democrats will never fight another war.

216 Lucius Septimius  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:17:16pm

# 211 Jimmy Doolitle

And I'm sure there are some Seals to leave a "welcome to Iran" sign on the beeches for the leathernecks.

A big "semper fi" to you, Dinner Jacket

217 Bearster  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:18:06pm

Speaking of political correctness, why do so many Just Believe that we have to "kick our oil habit?" What's wrong with living a modern, civilized lifestyle? What we need to do is take the oil wells back (remember they took the oil from western companies in the 1950's and 1960's) and repeal regulations prohibiting oil drilling in Alaska and elsewhere.

Solar, alcohol, and wind are being pushed precisely because they are impractical and un-economic. Sacraficing our lifestyles is un-American.

218 cicero05  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:18:23pm

Pull the trigger, W...

219 Odinist  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:18:36pm

#190 BabbaZee

So true... The lines of ideology are so blurred these days... When reading news about Republican politicians, I usually have to look for the (D) or (R) after their name to find out which party the are with... I sure can't tell from their positions!

220 Durendal  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:18:46pm

WISHFUL THINKING. big time.

how many times have we told ourselves: "nah, Bush knows what's up," "he's making moves behind closed doors," "oh he'll get Osama," "Harriet Miers is competent," "DHS is a good idea," "nah, he's not really as stupid as the Dems say."

well, we were wrong. Bush really IS as stupid as the Dems say, as he has demonstrated by attacking his own party with this amnesty crap. at this point, my only hope for a positive outcome in the ME is his total disregard for the American people. Bush has crossed into Kim Jong-Il wild-man territory. he might just be crazy enough to bomb them!

time to cut our losses on Bush and find someone who will really fight for America.

221 BabbaZee  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:19:00pm

#204 squarepeg

That makes zero sense to me, sorry.

I would EXPECT in advance treasonous idiotic behavior from them.

Why would I be outraged at what I expect?

I voted for this man precisely because I did not expect this sort of behavior from him.

I was WRONG -

the only difference between a Republiwhore and a Dhimmicrat
in 2007
in so far as it relates to
selling us all to the Caliphate and the Commies

is MPH and ETA.

Why so few are outraged about being completely betrayed on so many issues is beyond me.

222 Killgore Trout Stinks  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:19:07pm

#213 Killgore Trout
Edit that down and someone might read it.
/You stink

223 Kenneth  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:19:42pm

#192 mickthemick

I suppose there is an element of that to the pro-American feelings. It is by no means universal, as the regime has a base support of about 20% of the population. A poll by a Tehran newspaper a few years ago showed that some 70% of the population listed the USA as the foreign country they most admire. That's not the same thing as saying 70% want the US to invade. The editor of the paper was thrown in jail for printing the poll, by the way.

224 haakondahl  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:19:46pm

BabbaZee

Now, now. I see nothing inconsistent in reacting differently to Republicans and Democrats. If I hear a Republican say "I'm going to go fix the Iran problem once and for all," I would suspect that a very different course of affairs will follow than if a Democrat should utter the same line.

Both would be expensive, no doubt, but the Republican's plan would be accounted for in Defense dollars, while the Democrat's would be from Education, State, HUD, SSA, Agriculture, etc.

I don' think that's cognitive dissonance or intellectually dishonest in any way.

Pelosi did have Republican losers with her, but she had other Democrats as well, and we never criticised them either. Who the heck were they? Nobody knows. Pelosi was driving that particular station wagon; everybody else was just eating sandwiches in the back.

225 BabbaZee  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:20:11pm

#219 Odinist
Yes I find that is true too.

226 kirche  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:20:21pm

#128 goddess & #141 mama

"I know the immigration bill is a mess, but I have a theory about that, too (of course I might be wrong on this)."

interesting that you two have extrapolated my thoughts on bush backing the immigration bill... i assumed he agreed to it to get the war funds (sans deadlines). that was as far as i got. but since both of your comments i have been postulating that maybe bush is much more crafty than anyone gives him credit for - - maybe bush KNEW, despite his pyblic support for the immgration bill, that the majority of americans would be so outraged that it will be defeated - - OR - - if the bill does reach his desk he may reverse himself, citing the outrage of the american public, and veto it!

yeah, it sounds a bit melodramtic and risky as a realistic strategy. so, goddess, what's your theory?

227 Sharmuta  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:21:40pm

190 BabbaZee

If I am having any faith here, it is my faith in God- that He will not forsake us, and He will lead the President to do the right thing by the United States, as well as Israel. THAT is where my faith lies. So if I am deceiving myself through my faith in God, so be it.

228 Jimash  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:22:30pm
if the bill does reach his desk he may reverse himself, citing the outrage of the american public, and veto it!

That would be great if it wasn't his idea in the first place.

229 GregInSeattle  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:22:55pm

#203 haakondahl 5/30/2007 5:09:18 pm PDT

I've been thinking the same thing! What an F'ing idiot and/or completely selfish man that dope is!

230 funky chicken  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:24:07pm

Sorry to burst the Bush amnesty bubble, but he's been pro-amnesty and publicly so since the 2000 election.

I'll go get my old links, unless someone has a good compilation ready to go.

231 Dave the.....  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:24:12pm

One of the biggest differences between todays Republicans and Democrats is who they is pulling their strings domestically.

I lived in a union town. I don't want the labor unions running the country the way they ran this town. That will happen if Democrats get total control.

Anti-Business. Actually Clinton really wasn't too bad here. But wait until the current Democrats get in control. A store owner won't be able to wash his windows without a stack of government permits and regulations and still will get sued for dumping his soapy water down the drain.

That sort of thing.

232 akak  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:24:23pm
#219 Odinist 5/30/2007 5:18:36 pm PDT

#190 BabbaZee

So true... The lines of ideology are so blurred these days... When reading news about Republican politicians, I usually have to look for the (D) or (R) after their name to find out which party the are with... I sure can't tell from their positions!

so you want in on the CR/GWB Pali o8 pool? what day?

233 Lucius Septimius  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:26:33pm

BabbaZee
Squarepeg

Evenin' to you both. I'm sure you'll sort it out. My USD .02 would be that it's just as Hayek said -- they all believe at some level that Socialism is inevitable. The question is what form and how it will come about.

GotC

How'd the exam go? After your remarks earlier this morning, sounded fascinating.

234 GeeWiz  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:26:57pm

I have a question to all: Will an attack on Iran strengthen or weaken our mission in Iraq?

235 christheprofessor  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:27:27pm

Interesting discussion, but not so interesting as the Ottawa/Anaheim Stanley Cup Game 2 (but, I'm biased)...

236 BabbaZee  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:27:51pm

Haak I disagree, sorry.

People will do anything to hang on to their entrenched premise of life and the little titles and isms that give them what they feel is their identity.

IOW I am a republican, I am A Jew, I am A Democrat, I am a Christian, I am a trans-gendered bipolar, interracial inflatable scrotum man, etc.

You attack any of that entrenched world view with reality and people do one of two things or both

attack you

or try to rationalize it any way possible.

This is the matrix of moonbattery and it does not belong exclusively to the left.

It is ancillary to having more faith in men than GOD.

President X , I have FAITH in him, he would NEVER do that.

Guru Hakkalkaamkaamo, I have FAITH in him, he would NEVER do that

etc etc [ insert name here ]

There is only one place you can go to to have faith that a promise will never be broken and that is to GOD.

He is not a man that he should break his promises.

I do not have "faith" in men
therefore I am not blinded when they break promises, as all people do.

There is more than a touch of this in all people, and too much of it in most.

It's human nature.

237 uradumone  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:29:57pm

Any minute now the iranian pussy patrol will board our ships and take hostages. Yeah right.

238 BabbaZee  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:30:06pm

#232 akak
I can't even joke about that one for some reason, me, the mocker of all mockers, LOL

makes me SICK

239 Lucius Septimius  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:30:48pm

# 235 Christheprofessor

Who ya pullin' for?

240 Live_Free_or_Die~!  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:30:56pm

Late to this but... I love the planes sitting "hot" on the cats ready to launch. And I am willing to bet every plane on the carriers had a full war load with pilots and all service crews on a 5 min alert.

My father was a naval aviator and the ability of the US Navy to appear just about ANYWHERE in the world to not only project US power but to provide humanitarian aid in disasters is awesome.

In memory of
Capt Stanley (Stan the Man) N. Eldredge, Jr
1924-1986

241 Highrise  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:31:48pm

I thought that pelosi took care of this already? She told the President of the United States firmly into the camera, To stop with the threats, there is a new congress in town.


You mean Bush/Cheney didn't listen to the head momma moonbat? The horror!


/sarc

242 christheprofessor  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:32:11pm

#239 LS

Anaheim, but only barely (Hurricanes didn't even make the playoffs, dammit!)...

243 squarepeg  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:32:32pm

#234 GeeWiz

I have a question to all: Will an attack on Iran strengthen or weaken our mission in Iraq?


STRENGTHEN.

Reduce Iranian IEDs, scare a few "insurgents" off their mission.

244 Kenneth  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:32:42pm

#236 BabbaZee

I am a trans-gendered bipolar, interracial inflatable scrotum man

You say the funniest things! That's why I love you.

245 Canadian Infidel  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:32:55pm

Thanks for the video Charles! That made my night.

OT before I head off for a while.

I'm flipping through channels and come across the show 1 vs 100. The question:

How many six packs would it take to get 99 bottles of beer on the wall?

THE THREE OPTIONS GIVEN WERE:
A. More than 15.
B. Less than 15.
C. Exactly 15.

The lady doesn't know and uses one of her safeties to get other opinions. She gets the correct answer WITH HELP. Twenty people of the 100 get it wrong.

Scary on so many levels.

246 akak  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:33:05pm

GeeWiz 5/30/2007 5:26:57 pm PDT

I have a question to all: Will an attack on Iran strengthen or weaken our mission in Iraq?


which 10 men...or right turn from Iraq...draft...

oh yeah the 24 hour war plan?

247 Dave the.....  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:33:32pm

Hey, they had CNN International on here at work this morning...yes, it's as bad as they say it is.

Breaking story, big news on it this morning. Cheney doesn't want to release the names of all the visitors to the VP's house. A huge scandel in CNN Int'l's world.

248 Dave the.....  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:34:33pm
#236 BabbaZee

I am a trans-gendered bipolar, interracial inflatable scrotum man

I didn't know you were interracial.

249 lawhawk  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:35:46pm

OT:
Seattle Jewish Center shooter enters insanity plea. Figures.

Islamic jihad is an insanity defense / how far removed from reality is that?

250 BabbaZee  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:38:05pm

Dave the...

lol

251 Highrise  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:38:33pm

234 GeeWiz 5/30/2007 5:26:57 pm PDT

I have a question to all: Will an attack on Iran strengthen or weaken our mission in Iraq?


I've always felt that Iran was our main mission, Iraq was being used for our strategy of placement.

===
In general,

Bush isn't as stupid as people think. I'm very pissed off about the whole immigration thing, but I have to admit that he's been up front about the border and immigration situation from day one. He hasn't wavered. So in essence, we got what we voted in. Put that into perspective though...who was our choice? john kerry? No contest on who to vote for...

I refuse to throw him under the bus though and NO, I'm not a blind supporter of Bush. I put my unwavering trust in God and Him only...not a human as someone else has said here.

If people hate Bush...those of you that want giuliani and mccain in office, both of them are pretty up front with their border/immigration stance too..and in line with the messed up bill that we all are bitzin about. Keep that in mind.

Vote tougher than Bush.

252 funky chicken  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:38:38pm

Here's an oldy but goody:[Link: findarticles.com...]

Remarks Prior to Discussions With President Vicente Fox of Mexico and an Exchange With Reporters in Quebec
Weekly Compilation of Presidential Documents, April 30, 2001
April 21, 2001

President Bush. It's an honor for me to be with my friend, a friend of the United States, President Fox. He's a strong advocate of trade, and he's a strong advocate of good relations. Today I've decided that the first state dinner I will have as President of the United States will be with my friend Vicente Fox. We will have the state dinner in early fall, hopefully the month of September, depending upon our schedules. I look forward to a continued dialog on a lot of issues that concern our countries, a lot of issues that concern our hemisphere, prior to the dinner. And of course, we look forward to welcoming you, sir, to Washington on that day.

Here's another; note the date
Presidents Bush, Fox Discuss State Visit
Remarks by President George Bush and President Vicente Fox of Mexico Upon Departure
The South Lawn

View the President's Remarks
Listen to the President's Remarks

12:30 P.M. EDT

PRESIDENT BUSH: Thank you very much. The President and I are about to get on Marine One, and then Air Force One, and fly to Toledo, Ohio. I look forward to a joint appearance in the heartland of America. We're going to have a great day in Toledo.

We had a great day here yesterday as well. Not only did we have a successful state dinner last night, but we had a series of meetings that confirmed our close relationship and built on our trust. As I said, Mexico is an incredibly important part of the United States' foreign policy. It is our most important relationship, because Mexico is our neighbor, and neighbors must work together. And we do.

We're confronting a series of opportunities and issues. Over the past hours, we discussed the importance of NAFTA, not only between Canada and Mexico and the United States, but free trade throughout the hemisphere.

We discussed a variety of issues that relate to trade. Trucking is an issue about which we had a long discussion. Mexican trucks ought to be moving in the United States; I call upon Congress to take that provision out of the appropriations bill, otherwise I will veto the bill.

[Link: www.whitehouse.gov...]

253 BabbaZee  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:39:19pm

Ken, LOL

I pretty much am always smiling or mocking...

/except when I get REALLY pissed

254 Intestinal Fortitude  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:39:53pm

#236 BabbaZee

I am a trans-gendered bipolar, interracial inflatable scrotum man

I'm a lesbian in a mans body. Still friends? :-p

255 funky chicken  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:41:09pm

251 Highrise If the damned democrats had nominated someone credible, or at least not demonstrably mentally ill we would be better off.

Even liberal nanny Lieberman might have been better, at least for the GOP, and on the WOT.

256 christheprofessor  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:41:50pm

#241 Highrise

Kudos on maintaining last night your composure -- what an ass!

257 BabbaZee  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:41:58pm

I do not hate him
I do not think he is stupid
and I have never written anywhere anything of the sort.

This is not personal to me

I do not operate intellectually out my "feelings"

I simply see him as weak and owned.

258 BabbaZee  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:42:53pm

Funky

Lieberman would likely have stood firmer I think.

How scary is that?

259 Thanos  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:43:36pm

Live Free or Die

Late to this but... I love the planes sitting "hot" on the cats ready to launch. And I am willing to bet every plane on the carriers had a full war load with pilots and all service crews on a 5 min alert.


You bet they are alert, they know Iran has subs, shore batteries, and C-802s' and there are crazy Basijis out there. I think they can handle it, the one worry I have is there is a way to attack which I will not delve into here, or likely anywhere.

260 BabbaZee  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:43:51pm

#254 Intestinal Fortitude
HEY!
Long time no see
absolutely still friends, LOL

261 funky chicken  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:44:02pm

251 Highrise Oh, yeah I'm gonna vote tougher than Bush.

I don't think soft on immigration guys like McCain have a shot. There are still evangelicals supporting Brownback, but I bet very, very few of them understand he's an open borders guy.

Education.

262 christheprofessor  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:44:03pm

re: my #28 post

No, I'm not Yoda!

263 squarepeg  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:44:03pm

#221 Babba

1) You said you'd be hearing "a very different tune" if Dems were in the White House doing this same stuff.

2) Then you said you WOULDN'T be outraged -- i.e. you'd be out of tune with the rest of us?

Never mind. You actually repeated what I said. If a Dem were in the White House, we'd have no hope. (Agreed.) With Bush in the White House, we have a sliver of hope. (Disagreed, I take it.)

I know you don't agree with the whole thing, but it can make sense.

264 hous bin pharteen  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:44:23pm

I have mentioned here before.
There is a military unit that will be involved, has to be involved, in any action against Iran.
If it moves, it means its game day.
We are not there yet.

265 TxMarko  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:44:34pm

#159 scaryfast
"I'm all in favor of some good old fashioned low tech leaflet dropping. If you wanna go high tech then step on Al Jazeera's satellite transponder with something like Voice of America."

I like the way you think, scary! Think of the chaos in moonbatland when GWB pulls the same stunt as their pal Chavez just did!

266 Highrise  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:45:50pm

255 funky chicken

Erm..lieberman is a gun grabber. Newp!

===

257 BabbaZee 5/30/2007 5:41:58 pm PDT

I do not hate him
I do not think he is stupid
and I have never written anywhere anything of the sort.

Never said you did. Others have in their posts though and that is who I was referring to.

===
256 christheprofessor 5/30/2007 5:41:50 pm PDT

#241 Highrise

Kudos on maintaining last night your composure -- what an ass!


haha thanks. It was pretty entertaining as he kept posting more and more about his craziness. I notice he did not deny the age range I pegged him at...17 to 19...so predicatable hehe.

267 Kenneth  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:46:05pm

#255 funky chicken

If the damned democrats had nominated someone credible, or at least not demonstrably mentally ill we would be better off.

Well, that pretty much eliminates their whole field!

268 docremulac  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:46:22pm

Here's what we do know about the way muslims fight: if you hit them hard and start kicking their ass, they do their little fake: "Let's negotiate" thing to give themselves time to re-group.

First target would have to be the government. Stealth bombers taking out their Parliament building while it's in session with the ruling mullas and the president there in the building. At the same time hit all their nuke facilities and continue then hit their military installations till they call for a cease fire at which time we call the job done, but let them think they outsmarted us and stopped the attacks with their fake negotiation thing.

If they don't negotiate, keep destroying their military facilities with airpower till there's no more Iranian military, then call it a day.

And please, no invasion, occupation and plan to "win the hearts and minds". Just wreck their shit and go home.

269 Elcid  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:46:26pm

This will be front page for days. Expect seething...

Guantanamo Bay Detainee Commits Suicide in Cell

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

...And that's just from the msm.

270 KayMichelle  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:49:24pm

Unfortunately, I don't have confidence that they can pull it off.

Sad, isn't it?

271 Just_A_Grunt  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:49:45pm

#262 ctp
Now quit showing off that is so 1²

272 nonic  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:50:29pm

#151 Killgore Trout
#172 Fjordman

The Pope seems far more concerned with Reason and Enlightenment than he is with Islam.

Isn't it obvious that if you could get it to conform to Reason and Enlightenment, you wouldn't have to worry about islam?

273 KayMichelle  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:52:04pm

docremulac - you are so right.

Too bad they haven't noticed the 'ask for truce to regroup' tactic, they fall for it again and again.

We need to learn just to hit and call it a day. It's this nation building afterward, the 'let's do it like we did in Japan/Germany' that is not working. Punish and go home.

274 Lucius Septimius  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:52:58pm

I've heard a great deal about Iran's military capability, but the record of these large Arab conscript armies is not terribly good. Part of the issue has to do with both leadership and the regime's constant fear of being overthrown. I remember the story Oren tells in Six Days of War, about the Syrians sending jets up to defend Damascus, but only putting dummy missiles on them because they were afraid the pilots might attack the presidential palace instead. You can imagine what happened.

Totalitarian regimes have generally proven to be fairly inept militarily (Nazi Germany being the notorious exception, but that can be explained). This is doubly true when what matters more than anything is ideological purity rather than military skill. I have no doubt that they have impressive capabilities (or impressive in a Bush-41-era way), but in the end it's leadership and the spirit and training of the individual soldiers and sailors that counts.

275 Intestinal Fortitude  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:53:13pm

The Iranian mullahs and their pet prez achmad-skinny-jihad need a Belleville or Corcoran to their throats. I prefer Corcoran because it has a robust history of kicking ass: from Europe through Africa, the Pacific islands, to Japan, through Nam.

276 PeaceAtAllCosts  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:55:00pm

Let us not kid ourselves...

The United States is a paper tiger. We have really bugged out of every major conflict since Vietnam. (Oh syeah, we cleaned up a major power in Grenada ...)T

he Iranians will not blink...but we will.

I am sorry to be so negative-it is hard not be. Just like the Israelis, A large portion of our electorate are soft pacifists who would do anything to duck out of defending ourselves.

We will only be ready to defend ourselves after Iran has garnered nukes and cut of the straits of Hormuz.

Charles...I hope I am wrong and you are right. I don't think so. Uncle Sam is toothless and unarmed. sigh

277 nonic  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:55:24pm

#182 Killgore Trout

It's getting tougher to Catholicism advancing with this Pope at the helm. The Church (and Europe) will most likely survive his rule. Maybe the next one can do better.

"Do better" at what?

Benedict has said he would rather a smaller but stronger and truer Church than a more "popular" Church at any cost.

278 Just_A_Grunt  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:55:50pm

3 or 4 years ago I thought we had Iran right where we needed them, trapped between Afghanistan and Iraq. I couldn't comprehend that the Iraqi people would let the Iranians in after fighting a 10 year with them but I didn't realize that the Shiite brotherhood would trump all else while in the western part of Iraq the Sunni brothers would allow their Al Queda counter parts in to thrive and raise hell.
Well now we know and at least we are smarter then our intelligence experts who apparentely didn't see this coming either, or maybe they did. All of that is water under the bridge now. I hope we have learned the dynamics of the Islamic world now and somebody can get a big polyfoam noodle to beat the state department over the head with it so that they get a clue.

279 BabbaZee  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:56:34pm

#266 Highrise
Just clarifying.

#263 squarepeg

I think the problem regarding my thinking as it compares to most other peoples thoughts in this sort of a case is this:

You see a big difference between a republican and a democrat when you consider them, as do most people.

I don't.

I used to.

I don't anymore.

Now I see a two sets of entrenched political whore hundred year old mafia clans with the same end game agenda but a different interim MO.

280 Dave the.....  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:56:40pm

Heard something interesting this week (on Bill Bennett show?). We always heard that the reason Sherman did his distructive march to the sea was to destroy the South's will to fight, including a post-official war guerilla war.

But another reason he did that was to bring the worst of the war to the rich plantation owners of Georgia and the Carolina's. It's one thing to defeat poor whites on the battlefields of Norhern Virginia. But Sherman thought that the plantation/slave owners needed to suffer to bring an end to the war.

Not sure if there is a tie-in to the mideast. Many fanatics there don't care if they die or their people suffer, but Iran can't just sit back and aid the terrorists in Iraq without consequences.

281 RTLM  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:57:40pm

Just saw the video. Raw power F.U. demo to the mullahs.
The fire power of one just Aegis boat would set Iran on permanent glow.

Not to mention the subs.

282 Intestinal Fortitude  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:59:15pm

PeaceAtAllCosts

Peace at what costs? the price of a McRib?

283 Dave the.....  Wed, May 30, 2007 5:59:57pm

Khadfy's (can not even come close to spelling that) son said something similiar. That the reason Israel does so well in wars is because they are a democray. Dictators/authoritarian gov'ts don't want a strong and skilled military leader in charge of their armed forces because he could turn on them. They want someone weak running the army.

284 Just_A_Grunt  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:00:32pm

Unfortunately that little show of force used up what remained in the militarys' budget, so until they actually get a budget approved the bullets and bombs and fuel to go with planes and ships will have to wait.

285 squarepeg  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:01:12pm

#279 Babba

I agree with that to an extent. You go further than I do is all.

286 Sharmuta  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:02:39pm
And let’s face it. This is pretty damned intimidating.

Yes. Yes, it is.

/Thanks for sharing

287 SnakeSpit  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:03:13pm

I want to say this even if every lizard on LGF gets pissed at me. I started posting about these task forces in Sept. of 2006. I posted them as copies from Debkafile. Every time I would post these things, always, some here would tell me that Debkafile is not trustworthy, and dismissesd it as nothing. It aggravated me, but I kept my mouth shut.

Lately, I have been seeing lots of posts from lizards disrespecting President Bush. This needs to stop. We're beginning to sound like KOS. He just happens to know a hell of a lot of things we don't. This is a good example of that. It's really easy for us to be armchair presidents.
Rant Off/

288 nonic  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:05:04pm

#190 Babba

the meeting with Iran on Memorial Day..

Babba, one thing I've thought of that meeting on our Memorial Day said was that we know what it means to sacrifice to win, we have sacrificed to win, and we can do it again.

When, other than Memorial Day, are we prouder or more determined and resolute?

If this was the thinking, it was brilliant. IMO

289 Intestinal Fortitude  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:06:42pm

SnakeSpit

/rant on!

290 BabbaZee  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:06:50pm
You go further than I do is all.

That made me laugh so hard at myself for some reason

My Spleen is Outraged,
of course I go too far...
how could I not go too far?
Everyone says
You go too far crazy spleen!

291 Dave the.....  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:06:54pm

Bush may not be correct in everything he does (according to my opinion), but I still respect and honor him for a couple of reasons.

He's honest. If he does something I disagree with, it's because he feels that is the right thing to do. He doesn't do it because it's the easy thing to do at the time.

We are still better off with a liberal Bush then an Al Gore or a Kerry or a Clinton or a Pelosi or a Dean or an Edwards in the Oval Office.

292 BabbaZee  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:07:31pm

nonic

I could not disagree with you more, sorry.

293 BabbaZee  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:09:51pm

Snakespit,

I don't think I have disrespected him.

I see what I see happening, and I can not pretend that I do not.

294 Intestinal Fortitude  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:12:34pm

Dave the...

3 good posts in a row. Good stuff.

Late!

295 BabbaZee  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:12:58pm
We are still better off with a liberal Bush then an Al Gore or a Kerry or a Clinton or a Pelosi or a Dean or an Edwards in the Oval Office.

This is true

but to use it as an excuse to justify inept or inexplicable behavior by the administration during time of war is advocating for mediocrity.

296 Intestinal Fortitude  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:13:27pm

Bye Babba!

297 Just_A_Grunt  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:13:36pm

The Memorial Day meeting, while certainly a faux paux in Americas eyes, must be kept in context. Our Memorial Day in Iraq is known simply as Monday. The issue of the Iranians arming the insurgents was brought up with the predictable response which should have surprised no one. President Tom is the Big Kahuana now and he knows there is no one to call his bluff. I can't say I would be doing a whole lot different if I was in his shoes. There is no way the US will take any action with all of the discontent at home and the only country he has to fear is Israel and even them he has dealt a serious blow to through his proxies in Hezbollah.
So if he was sitting at poker table right now the pile of chips in front of him would be far larger then any of his opponents. Hard reality and it sucks but you can't really spin it any other way.

298 Dr. Shalit  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:13:53pm

OK Everyone -

What I am about to say may cost me many friends - so here we go.
GWB has gotten the TR meme - speak softly and carry a BIG STICK!, my only criticism is that the stick is TWO carriers not THREE - thank the Clintonoid Military for that.
As far as our "marriage" with Mexico goes, I don't like it, then again in WWII we "married" Stalin. The Idea of a "North American Union" if the result is a bigger USA with more Energy Resources might not be such a bad idea, Puerto Rico, the DR, Haiti, Jamaica, the Bahamas, Virgin Islands, and Cuba are also welcome to join should that be their wish. Representation and exact voting rights can be worked out. This potential polygamous marriage is among peoples who are far closer in attitude and at least "wished for" lifestyle than the WWII marriage.
If this is what it takes to defeat the Islamofascist Enemy - FOREVER, I will take the deal. Remember well the words of Sir Winston which I will paraphrase - If Hitler were about to invade Hell I just might want to speak with the Devil.

-S-

299 hayseed  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:16:01pm

why arabs loose wars

300 BabbaZee  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:16:56pm
301 BabbaZee  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:18:03pm

Bye IF!

302 Dr. Shalit  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:21:11pm

#299 Hayseed

Hay -

Just Imagine Iraqi Gen. Saada in command of a REAL ARMY. The thought is frightening to say the least.

-S-

303 funky chicken  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:23:24pm

268 docremulac indeed

269 elcid well, that's one less mouth to feed.

304 SnakeSpit  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:25:37pm

BabbaZee,
I wasn't referring to you in my #287

305 tappin52  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:25:48pm

I think I'm getting nervous after reading all of these posts. Duct tape, check; plastic wrap, check; bottled water, check...

306 BabbaZee  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:26:12pm
Our Memorial Day in Iraq is known simply as Monday


Yea... so..


that means
they get to set the terms?

Think about the underlying psychological construct of that statement.

Since that day is nothing to them
we must put aside what it is to our people to accommodate them.

Sorry. Fuck that.

The Big Dog in a conflict like this does not make that kind of concession without telegraphing weakness to the enemy.

And that was the least of it, they are holding Americans in prison there , taking 5 as "Zionist spies"
threatening to wipe Israel off the face of the earth just three days before the meeting, also telling us exactly what we can and can not say during the meeting, they dictated that too...
there's more but suffice it to say


We should have refused to meet on that day.
Period.

There should have been no meeting with those genocidal maniacs in the first damn place.

307 funky chicken  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:26:44pm

298 Dr Shalit Whoa, usually I agree with your posts. Not this one, although I can see why GW Bush would advance the argument too...

I can see the appeal of lots of Roman Catholic tough guy immigrants, if those tough guy RC immigrants wanted to become American, indeed even liked the USA. Unfortunately the illegals we are taking in don't fit that bill.

Also, "marrying" Stalin didn't involve a gigantic demographic shift here in the USA.

The analogy doesn't work for me.

308 Dr. Shalit  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:27:19pm

#300 Babba Zee

Babba -

WOW - where did you find that? Yeah broadband works well. Wish there were Broadband Cos. instead of Phone Co. v. Cable Co.

-S-

309 BabbaZee  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:27:40pm

Ok Snake,

I just want to be clear here
it's a very divisive issue.

310 BabbaZee  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:28:32pm

Dr. Shalit
do you mean the movie? I make those movies there's a ton of them at my blog

311 GeeWiz  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:29:09pm

Damn! Lost a long post due to a time out. I will attempt again. BBL.

312 SnakeSpit  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:29:10pm

Babba,
We're clear. We're OK.

313 akak  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:29:35pm
Dr. Shalit 5/30/2007 6:13:53 pm PDT

OK Everyone -

What I am about to say may cost me many friends - so here we go.
GWB has gotten the TR meme - speak softly and carry a BIG STICK!, my only criticism is that the stick is TWO carriers not THREE - thank the Clintonoid Military for that.

ie 3=gametime or maybe not but 2 does not

314 Ma Sands  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:31:36pm

Just signed in a bit ago, for the first time in several hours...and seeing good news all over the place, but this is the best! ! ! Wow. Wow. Wow! :) If that isn't a Memorial Day message to give balm and heart to all the families who needed it, and our soldiers themselves, home & abroad! Man! I am so thrilled! :)

315 SnakeSpit  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:31:47pm

Akak,
So how long do you think we'll feed and house 20,000 ground troops on those ships?

316 Dr. Shalit  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:33:19pm

#307 Funky Chicken

"FC"

Heard, understood and totally appreciated.
Let's use TR for the example again re - NO Hy-
phenated Americans. Citzenship in the NA Union will require Ellis Island type of assimilation.
That will be the J.O.B. of the Next President.

-S-

317 BabbaZee  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:33:58pm

Where are the lions?

This is the most dangerous time the earth has ever faced and I all I have are whores, beasts and advocates for mediocrity.

Who will lead?

Remember this guy?

Can you picture him accepting ANY of this crap?

318 nonic  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:36:59pm

#220 Durendal

time to cut our losses on Bush and find someone who will really fight for America.

You've convinced me. Okay, I won't vote to re-elect him.

/sarc

319 Dr. Shalit  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:40:57pm

#akak -

"ak" -

What I mean is that you play the hand you have. 50% more "whoop-ass" reinforces the point.

-S-

320 akak  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:42:05pm

SnakeSpit 5/30/2007 6:31:47 pm PDT

Akak,
So how long do you think we'll feed and house 20,000 ground troops on those ships?


how long does a lame duck quack due diligence?

321 funky chicken  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:42:45pm

Dr. Shalit WF Buckley had something on that prospect today sorta. Lemme go look.

But please imagine the cost of that "assimilation." Ask Savage Nation next time he's around about the ludicrous regulations our government puts on our own truckers while they are pushing for ever more Mexican truckers on our roads.

Do you think the government of Mexico respects those regulations? Do you trust the government of Mexico to ever be a totally trustworthy regulatory partner?

Now, if you are talking about annexing Mexico and making her states 51-56 or so, that's a different argument entirely.

I'd be cautious about that as the Mecha and Aztlan folks are already around and would go "insurgent" and have lots of support from Mexicans I believe.

322 funky chicken  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:44:06pm

Dr Shalit here's a random article. Does the Mexican government really seem like a reliable "friend" to the American people?

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

off to get the WFB quote

323 akak  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:44:06pm
Dr. Shalit 5/30/2007 6:40:57 pm PDT

#akak -

"ak" -

What I mean is that you play the hand you have. 50% more "whoop-ass" reinforces the point.


please explain the point...as it were?

324 BabbaZee  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:44:53pm

A Sermon for the West
~ Oriana Fallaci

325 uradumone  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:45:20pm

#317 BabbaZee

That was fantastic. Thanks. And no he wouldn't put up with any of this crap.

326 Just_A_Grunt  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:46:38pm

Babba - Reagan is dead and so is Patton, Churchill, John Wayne, Audie Murphy, and anybody else who would stand up and have enough argumentative style to get more then 50% of this country or more then 25% of the rest of the world to back any sort of power play. It is time to face facts our "friends" fear us more then the enemy and our enemies don't fear us because if the problem can't be solved in the space of a 30 minute sitcom then we won't even try.
I am sick and tired of trying to play Mr Nice Guy in international relations. Our friends stab us in the back while our enemies shoot us in the front. It is time for us to either stand up to one side or the other. What is the worst that could happen, they already hate us so let's give them a good reason.

And with that I am out of here.
/play nice

327 Dr. Shalit  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:47:36pm

#317 Babba Zee

Babba -

By 1984, I got to love Sir Ronald Maximus as much as anyone. And YES - he took a shot at
"The Daffy" in 1986. He still for whatever reason did nothing but shoot the equivalent of
1/2 ton trucks as ammunition at Beirut in 1983.
Nobody (ie, person) is perfect. Perfection is reserved yo G-d.

-S-

328 nonic  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:50:54pm

#287 SnakeSpit

Lately, I have been seeing lots of posts from lizards disrespecting President Bush. This needs to stop. We're beginning to sound like KOS. He just happens to know a hell of a lot of things we don't. This is a good example of that. It's really easy for us to be armchair presidents.

I'll second that.

329 funky chicken  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:50:59pm

Here's WFB via Mark Levin's blog on NRO:

The late Robert Bartley, the visionary apostle of the market, preached year after year against efforts to override the market. His doctrine would have eliminated any immigration laws, his faith in the market being such as to ordain its findings as transcending political considerations.

But realism does not always yield to economic dictation. It is one thing for the analyst to rule that the simple way to adjudicate the discrepancy between unemployment in Mexico and high employment in the United States is to let Mexicans move north until equilibrium sets in. But that overview simply denies basic cultural propositions. Societies are different, and they cannot solve every problem by merging.

He ends with:
Our lawmakers should understand the public skepticism. Theirs has been the responsibility in default. If Congress had begun reforms by stabilizing the Mexican border, it might more credibly have gone on to elaborate residually desirable changes in the mess Congress has permitted.

330 funky chicken  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:52:56pm

326 JAG well said.

331 BabbaZee  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:53:23pm
Perfection is reserved yo G-d.

Amen.

I like the typo

Yo, GOD!
;~}

Goodnight Lizardia.

332 Dr. Shalit  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:54:10pm

#326 (A Great Old Pontiac #) Just a Grunt

"JAG" -

"Nick" Machiavelli figured out all of this about 5-600 years ago. He was right and so are you. The trick is to get elected officials who will "Go With the Program".

-S-

333 Jimash  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:54:43pm

Good nite Good Babba

334 BabbaZee  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:55:31pm

#325 uradumone 5/30/2007 6:45:20 pm PDT


#317 BabbaZee

That was fantastic. Thanks. And no he wouldn't put up with any of this crap.

Buy the DVD it's a great thing to watch

#326 Just_A_Grunt

Amen Brother.

Goodnight all...

335 funky chicken  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:56:17pm

Well, good night.

Equilibrium with Mexico and the Mexican standard of living isn't in the USA's best interests short or long term, IMHO.

It seems most US citizens agree with me. Too bad most US Senators disagree with me.

336 akak  Wed, May 30, 2007 6:57:42pm
nonic 5/30/2007 6:50:54 pm PDT

#287 SnakeSpit

Lately, I have been seeing lots of posts from lizards disrespecting President Bush. This needs to stop. We're beginning to sound like KOS. He just happens to know a hell of a lot of things we don't. This is a good example of that. It's really easy for us to be armchair presidents.

I'll second that.

oh yeah flight 327

337 nonic  Wed, May 30, 2007 7:00:27pm

#291 Dave

I'm with you.

And another thing... Could you imagine a Clinton or a Gore just f*cking SENDING that force, regardless of the chatter and flak around him?, regardless that the MSM ignores it?

While others answer to polls and donors, G.W. seems to answer to a higher authority. (His conscience, if nothing else.)

338 nonic  Wed, May 30, 2007 7:03:26pm

#292 {Babba}

I could not disagree with you more, sorry.

That's okay. :-)

339 Dr. Shalit  Wed, May 30, 2007 7:04:42pm

#329 Funky Chicken

"FC" -

As regards Mexico, think like this, a BIG "whaddiff". Mexico was prostrate and defeated after the 1840's war with the US. It was ours for the taking. We chose NOT to take it. A leading voice in NOT doing so was a certain WHIG
Congressman by the name of ABRAHAM LINCOLN. Same Congressman was NOT re-elected. Was he right in this instance or not? Only G-d knows for sure.

-S-

340 GeeWiz  Wed, May 30, 2007 7:05:38pm

Babba, you're a treasure on this site and don't ever forget that! Love Ya

I'm no expert on Middle East policies but I did stay at a Holidy Inn Express last night.

Seriously, I propose the following strategy re: Iran.

Iraq was,(was being the operative word here), controlled by a sectarian dictator (Saddam). Syria is controlled by a sectarian dictator, "Chinless". Iran is controlled by Mullahs that subject a populace to laws that they ( the populace) wish to remove (become secular, aka Iraq). Al-Quida has recently announced that they have targeted Syria as a target for "regime change" to one of "theological control".

Am I wrong in assuming that if we break the back of the Iranians we undermine the Islamofacsit's design's of our demise?

I don't know about you, but I see this possible under GWB's tenure. I may not agree with GWB's domestic policy 100% but I think he has a steady rudder on our foreign pollicy!

341 Jimash  Wed, May 30, 2007 7:08:37pm
Could you imagine a Clinton or a Gore just f*cking SENDING that force

Not Gore, but in 1996 Clinton did send two Carrriers to deter the Chinese from scaring Taiwan.
Not trying to start an argument at all.

342 nonic  Wed, May 30, 2007 7:10:38pm

#298 Dr. Shalit

What I am about to say may cost me many friends - so here we go.

I dearly hope that we never get to the point where people politely explaining their differing opinion will lose them friends here at LGF.

Anyway, I (for one) largely agree with you.

343 warnergt  Wed, May 30, 2007 7:12:29pm

As I said before, the only reason they met is so Condoleezza Rice can tell Mahmoud Ahmadinejad that she is going to have his head on a platter.

344 Jimash  Wed, May 30, 2007 7:13:41pm
Am I wrong in assuming that if we break the back of the Iranians we undermine the Islamofacsit's design's of our demise?

Not wrong at all.

345 akak  Wed, May 30, 2007 7:15:27pm
Am I wrong in assuming that if we break the back of the Iranians we undermine the Islamofacsit's design's of our demise?


You're not following this very closely now are you?

no insult intended

346 THX-42  Wed, May 30, 2007 7:19:11pm

The frustration on LGF with the President on numerous other issues is understandable (and I share those frustrations), but I believe this armada is the real deal. The landing ships and the ground troops are what got my attention. This is way beyond "a show of force". The pieces are being moved into position. The "question" has been put to the Iranians. It's their move. And the wrong answer launches the spear. My gues is we are weeks (at most) away from the resolution of the Iran nuke problem...AND the end of the Iraq insurgency.

It's going to be a bad summer for the Democrats and for (other) enemies of the United States.

347 Jimash  Wed, May 30, 2007 7:19:20pm

I am not a big Ayn Rand fan.
But it's all right here, better than I could ever say it,
I hope this is pinned to the oval office wall as a plan.,
[Link: www.theobjectivestandard.com...]

348 SunCat  Wed, May 30, 2007 7:24:32pm

What was that about America being a worn-out battery? Please remember that "battery" has more than meaning in the English language.

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.


John Stuart Mill
English economist & philosopher (1806 - 1873)

349 Jimash  Wed, May 30, 2007 7:24:41pm

Money quote:
The conclusion is inescapable. The road to the defeat of Islamic Totalitarianism begins in Tehran. America, acting alone and with overwhelming force, must destroy the Iranian Islamic State now. It must do so openly, and indeed spectacularly, for the entire world to see, for this is the only way to demonstrate the spectacular failure and incompetence of the Islamic fundamentalist movement as a whole.

350 wanumba  Wed, May 30, 2007 7:32:44pm

Sending the Navy to ostreperous Muslim states has ALWAYS produced results for the USA.
1801- First Barbary War: Presidetn Jefferson
blockade of North African sultanates to stop Barbary Piracy of US merchant ships - sultans lay low and behave for a while
1816 - Second Barbary War: President Madison back to rattle some sultans' cages - end of Barbary piracy in the Mediterranean
1901 The Perdicaris Affair: Preisdent Theodore Roosevelt


With THREE previous hostage crises in American history, all resolved successfully with gunboat diplomacy, how hard was it for Carter to find historical precedents for his options when Iran overran the US Embassy in Tehran?

351 akak  Wed, May 30, 2007 7:33:24pm
Qassam hits Sderot NY city building
Qassam rocket hits apartment building, power-line in SderotNY city causing temporary blackouts throughout city. Residents of stricken house hide in fortified room during attack, suffer shock upon seeing damage caused to their home ..

ynet

oops...typos are horrible eh, why the freak out by transit authorities?

352 nonic  Wed, May 30, 2007 7:37:21pm

#341 Jimash

Not trying to start an argument at all.

Didn't take it that way. :-)

353 hous bin pharteen  Wed, May 30, 2007 7:41:14pm

#349 jimsah

I don't see the America we live in now having the stones for what is suggested in that article.
The America of the 1930's and 40's was a different world than today. We were a whole different people.

354 Mezzetino  Wed, May 30, 2007 7:43:33pm

That's some pretty impressive video.

Hey Iran: TRICK OR TREAT!

(bWAAAHAAAHAAAHAAAHAAA!)

355 Dr. Shalit  Wed, May 30, 2007 7:44:27pm

#350 wanumba

"Wa" -

Unfortunately Pres. Carter was of the mind that if you did the OPPOSITE of established wisdom you would come out better. He was almost certainly wrong on most things AND Very Certainly believed he was right.

-S-

356 Dr. Shalit  Wed, May 30, 2007 7:48:11pm

#353 hous bin pharteen

"hbp" -

Our people are THE SAME as they were in the 1930's - Our MILITARY is way far better.

-S-

357 Village Idiot's Apprentice  Wed, May 30, 2007 8:32:18pm

I haven't read the entire thread, but has anyone looked at the video that Charles posted?

One thing that jumped out at me was that every one of those ships is flying their Battle Ensign.

I guess that you could say that it's to insure positive identification.

Entering my 28th year of doing this Navy thing, I read it as " We're the United States Navy...What you gonna do about it"

358 Village Idiot's Apprentice  Wed, May 30, 2007 8:36:49pm

I forgot the link in my last post.


What is a "Battle Ensign"?

A battle ensign is the name given to a large war flag which is flown on a warship's mast just before going into battle.

359 footballfan0786  Wed, May 30, 2007 8:46:38pm

Can someone post a link to the video. It is gone from the top, and gone from Dollards site as well..

..footballfan

360 Village Idiot's Apprentice  Wed, May 30, 2007 8:53:22pm
361 Attaboid  Wed, May 30, 2007 8:56:10pm

The problem is: they will never use it. Wimps.

362 footballfan0786  Wed, May 30, 2007 9:09:39pm

Thanks VIA, but it appears to have disappeared from there as well. What is up with this video..?

..footballfan

363 Village Idiot's Apprentice  Wed, May 30, 2007 9:13:14pm

#362 Footballfan


I just reloaded the link from Ace with no problem.

364 Promethea  Wed, May 30, 2007 9:20:12pm

#147 mickthemick . . .

By all means, we do NOT want to occupy Iran. I would rather the U.S. totally destroy that country than occupy it. Why occupy it? What's it worth? For the last several years, I have gotten more and more tired of pundits, etc. insisting that there is a "pro-U.S." element in Iran. There might be an anti-mullah element which has "pro-U.S." trappings. But there are NO (I repeat, NO!) authentic, pro-American elements in Iran.

There may be "pro-U.S." groups in Iran, but I think it's time for the U.S. to be more brutal than it has been since WW2.

Once the U.S. became known as "Mr. Nice Guy," every two-bit dictator did what he wanted, and the Euros and Mexicans just laughed in our faces and took advantage of our generally pleasant selves.

The Muslims only respect force. Let's not fool ourselves into thinking that being nice is going to get us anywhere. (Israel being the perfect example of this failed strategy by trying to win over the "Palisteens.")

I admire Bush's attempt to set up a working democracy in Iraq. In the case of the Iran, however, I would do what's necessary to reduce them to a non-threat. We should not occupy them. If we have to level them, then we need to do it. This will be a warning to future troublemakers. The U.S. needs to be more unpredictable and more feared.

Re Iran--our excuse for being brutal could be the 1979 takeover of the embassy. The Muslims know that we have short memories. That's our major weakness as a nation. Let's mess with their minds them and show that we can be vengeful. They'll understand us better and fear us more, and we'll all be better off.

Also, if our attack against Iran doesn't go our way, we should destroy the well of the 12th Imam and any other cultic sites they value.

I'm happy to respect other people's religions, but not at the cost of our own safety. As a child of WW2, I have a perspective on things that a lot of younger Americans don't have.

365 Promethea  Wed, May 30, 2007 9:27:32pm

#268 docremulac . . .

First target would have to be the government. Stealth bombers taking out their Parliament building while it's in session with the ruling mullas and the president there in the building. At the same time hit all their nuke facilities and continue then hit their military installations till they call for a cease fire at which time we call the job done, but let them think they outsmarted us and stopped the attacks with their fake negotiation thing.

If they don't negotiate, keep destroying their military facilities with airpower till there's no more Iranian military, then call it a day.

Your entire post sums up my views very succinctly.

My main problem with your post is trying to figure out what your nic means. Is "remulac" some kind of infant food, like simulac? Please advise.

366 Cath  Wed, May 30, 2007 9:30:01pm

Holy makeral. This is wonderful, just wonderful. I've phoned my mother, sister/brother-in-law, brother, two girlfriends and a few other people -- all LGF devotees - telling them to read LGF if they haven't yet today. My beloved, gentle, tough-as-nails 81 year old mum says it's about time a few of these men finally stopped guarding their family jewels and decided to put them to one of the good uses they were given jewels in the first place.

367 MacBoy  Wed, May 30, 2007 11:28:22pm

Ben

I'm not above a little, um, Taqiyya ;)

368 Kulhwch  Wed, May 30, 2007 11:34:40pm
For some reason, no one told you that just 5 days before Monday’s talks, an entire floating army, with nearly 20,000 men, comprising the world’s largest naval strike force, led by the USS Nimitz and the USS Stennis, and also comprising the largest U.S. Naval armada in the Persian Gulf since 2003, came floating up unnanounced through the Straight of Hormuz, and rested right on Iran’s back doorstep, guns pointed at them. The demonstration of leverage was clear. And it also came on the exact date of the expiration of the 60 day grace period the U.N. had granted Iran.

    Yeah!  Go team!  Give 'em your best Clint Eastwood stares and keep the powder dry!  And come back safe.

}:)     [Casual music for Nimitz kicking ass ... ]

369 Pennies for Patriots  Wed, May 30, 2007 11:44:39pm

Might I suggest that if they are going to pound the snot out of Iran that they deprive them of their country wide internet connection by paying a visit to the University of Vienna and blocking name serving traffic designated for Iranian IP addresses.

This is the vicinity they should be looking at:
ns5.univie.ac.at 193.171.255.77(AT)

It's been done before and it had a deep psychological impactwhen Iran suddenly disapeared from the online world for all intents and purposes.

It also makes it tougher to communicate with those phantom sleeper cells when the the mad mullahs go dark on the internet. Kinda like a "fatwa free zone".

370 Kulhwch  Thu, May 31, 2007 12:18:42am
#6 akak

After the immigration fiasco, you trust Bush understands Iran?

    I think it's good either way.  Either they see him as competent (and they remember he took us into Afganistan and Iraq), or they see him as out of control of a huge war machine (and remember that crazy MFers -- they should know this already -- are the worst).  I think it's cake either way.

    PLUS he's in a position to do whatever he wants to do, he doesn't have to pander to anyone to get re-elected.  Being a retiring president has it's advantages ... maybe he's seeing this as being for posterity.  I hope so.

10 simonml
...
Otherwise big bad USA is at fault again

    You know, I feel like we should just embrace our reputation, especially if we're going to get fingered for it regardless, no matter what we do.  We used to be John Wayne (the good person, doing the right thing), but we've morphed over the years into the High Plains Drifter (the dark man doing what needs to be done).  We're not Theodore Cleaver on his Schwinn, we're Marlon Brando on his bike.  We'll be a lot more respected and get a lot more accomplished if we didn't have to worry about shining in the eyes of the world or the media.  Instead, do the job, get it done, and move on.

    If we're going to have the reputation anyway, we might as well ...

#17 1SG(ret)

Unless we are prepared to use it, it's just a show. I really hope we are prepared to use it. I, like FC am not sure anymore. I didn't think I would ever feel this way.

    I hope everyone remembers the capture of the two British boat crews, and remembers how Britain seemingly lost the respect of the world by not being strong.  (No offense to our allies in GB, I'm just remembering a LOT of posts here and elsewhere at the time saying pretty much this.)   It could help us when appeasement starts whispering in our collective ears ... and help us keep our strength.

}:)     [Think I'll sleep well tonight ...]

371 OrzBorz  Thu, May 31, 2007 12:55:07am

#26 Shug 5/30/2007 3:44:06 pm PDT

There's a nasty antibiotic resistant strain of TB out there too. :(

372 Roger  Thu, May 31, 2007 5:31:51am

#47 Kenneth

They showed Iran the solid evidence they have on them.

So again, who is going to show it to the American public? Colin Powell?

373 TMF  Thu, May 31, 2007 5:33:00am

If we did go in on the ground, no doubt the mullahs have learned their lessons from Iraq, and have a domestic "insurgency", consisting of Revolutionary Guards and Quds forces already in place.

My guess is the Iranian people wouldnt tolerate being blown up on a daily basis by their own government/people, as the Iraqis apparently do, but who knows.

Hence, I see no value of injecting an occupying force into Iran.

Just bomb, bomb, bomb, and then bomb some more. Hurt them. Hurt them bad.

SUre, a few mullahs will survive and show up on tv saying they've "defeated the great satan", but anyone with a brain will know the truth.

374 Kenneth  Thu, May 31, 2007 6:40:14am

#372 Roger

They showed Iran the solid evidence they have on them.

So again, who is going to show it to the American public? Colin Powell?

Good morning Roger,

Good question. I detect more than a hint of sarcasm, or maybe cynicism.

The US military has released the evidence, Bush & others have referred to it. A few media sources have covered it. But all the MSM have ignored it. Not something they want to dwell on. Like the 42 Iraqis, including children, rescued from the Al Qaeda torture chamber last week, with the well thumbed torture manuals & photos of the blood stained torture implements. The military issues a press release, and the media ignores it.

The poroblem is, if the public saw that shit, they might get the idea that there are worse forms of torture than putting panties on a man's head and playing loud rap music. The public might even form the dangerous opinion that Bush is right when he says that Iraq is the central front in the War on Terror.

And we can't have that.

375 Mr Krabs  Thu, May 31, 2007 7:07:57am

#368 Kulhwch

Got that soundtrack, love it! The Nimitz was once parked of the coast where I live, and it was amazing, slightly unreal sight I have to say. A bit like seeing the Eiffel tower, or Ayres Rock for the first time.

/Geek mode off.

376 geoffputerbaugh  Thu, May 31, 2007 7:33:53am

My own opinion is that we should hit them hard -- the Iranians.

I would also add the information, from my own life, that Persians are liars and cheats.

"Oh Geoff how could you be so racist?"

Well, in 1970, when I was ending my Peace Corps service in Tunisia, an employee of the Iranian Embassy ripped me off. I was selling my short-wave radio for $100, and he gave me $50, took the radio, and promised the rest for next Tuesday.

So the first Persian I ever met cheated me.

Years later, after living and working in Tehran, I had another business deal, verbally agreed to. You don't want to hear the whole story, but the Elder Brother in the deal tried to rip me off again.

So I say, in shorthand, that the first Persian I ever met lied to me and robbed me, PLUS the fact that the last Persian I ever met lied to me and tried to rob me.

I say, let the fighters roll! Let Mr. Ahmadinejad join his buddy, wandering around the caves of Waziristan! And let the Iranian democrats (who are actually visible) take control of the country.

Oh, but the peaceniks will get their shorts all twisted!

I think this military action is even more justified by nuclear threats.

377 geoffputerbaugh  Thu, May 31, 2007 7:36:37am

Oh, by the way, some things which are not "mere opinion:"

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

378 M. Simon  Thu, May 31, 2007 7:53:38am

#375 Mr Krabs,

I had the honor of serving on the Bainbridge, DLGN-25, as a rod yanker. We were a part of the USS Enterprise task group.

Being able to go on deck every day and watch scenes like the ones in the video was thrilling. Even better when carrier ops were under way. Imagine 20 or 30 jets catapulted off while you watch. Or in a landing pattern.

379 M. Simon  Thu, May 31, 2007 7:59:23am

#365,

I believe Remulac is a planet.

That is more than enough information for a search.

380 Orbit Rain  Thu, May 31, 2007 8:01:48am
George Bush has unequivocally decided to attack Iran’s nuclear, military and economic infrastructure if they do not abandon their drive for military nuclear capability.

That includes their "government" infrastructure...Ahmadinejad, the mullahs, et alias...They'll be the first to go...actually...as murderers should...

381 MoonbatBane  Thu, May 31, 2007 8:41:40am

Wow. Enough firepower there to reduce any civilization or nation to rubble. Just wow.

382 LeftJustAintRight  Thu, May 31, 2007 9:21:14am

32 LeftJustAintRight 5/29/2007 8:29:45 am PDT

Ok GW is really not walking the talk lately but isn't more ships in the Iranian back door being ignored ?
I hope this was a come to Jesus meeting for the Iranian thugs.
GW-We know what you guys are up to and we will stop it if you don't
I will give Bush the benefit of doubt until he jumps the shark.(I hope he has not already)
David

383 LeftJustAintRight  Thu, May 31, 2007 9:37:14am

Wow i just thought of something!
Everyone was talking about the dems caving in on the war funding bill and after they signed it it got real quiet fast.
When Bush met with them he must have told them that he needed it without strings because he was moving the troops next door to Iran?
I hope this is the case.


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