I'm very sorry to see this too, Charles.

I've seen this coming for a while now.

Sad. Just sad. So many blogs exist because of Charles' influence and inspiration, and some turn on him. Sad.

Pamela is a shock...

It is surprising that anyone can link Charles and LGF to CAIR at all. It makes me feel kinda dirty.

I must say I am surprised at the reaction. What good is it to exchange one form of fascism for another? Those who have nothing to hide shouldn't fear a few questions.

re: #4 coquimbojoe

It makes me feel kinda dirty.

You're not the one to feel dirty.

I'm surprised she would associate with parties that only yesterday were fascists but now want to appeal to larger discontent among ordinary citizens. Can we defeat the Islamofascists without becoming like them?

Charles- can we have another So. Cal fire thread- that was pretty cool yesterday getting some first hand info form So. Cal Lizards!

Your mutual enemies will be having a good laugh.

wow

I can't count the number of times I've jumped to conclusions only to realize shortly afterwards that I took something out of context. I'm hoping that this soon is resolved.

There is a common enemy, and it isn't any of us.

In the immortal words of Obi Wan, "Let's play nice out there....."

nasa tv

t- 5 minutes

#3: Look, I'm one of the people who learned the art of blogging from Charles and LGF, as some of you probably know. And I don't like criticizing him because this is one of the most important anti-Jihad websites not just in the United States, but in the world. But I did disagree with his initial reaction to the conference, and I still do. It must be allowed to say that.

And for the record: Yes, I was at that conference, too.

LGF is the gold standard.

I'm surprised at the way she trivialises collaboration with the Nazis in WWII.

Damned Shame.

I've noticed that some of the only publications in Britain willing to confront the issue of Islam's incompatibility with Western Liberalism are Gay magazines and journals.

It would probably be a good idea for those who wish to organize against the Islamisation of Europe to work with some of these Gay groups in order to create as broad a coalition as possible.

re: #13 Fjordman

To disagree with Charles is one thing.

To say he's in bed with cair?! Friends don't do that.

#13 Fjordman

Disagreement is fine and a healthy thing as well. I'm hoping that this chapter is put behind us quickly and we're better, stronger people for it.

lie down with dogs, get up with fleas.....

Atlas Shrugs: "I assure you there was no neo nothing going on there. Charles painted this herculean effort with one ugly brush and took everyone and everything down with it."

Huh? I'm not gettin' it, I guess. I don't see it!

An enemy of CAIR? What an honor.

Can't we all just get along...? -Rodney

#13 Fjordman

P.S. I'm coming in "way" on the tail-end of this so I'm just going to sit back and find out what exactly happened before I run my yap. I think I know what's going on, but am not entirely certain.

To say he's in bed with cair?! Friends don't do that.

I've never said that and I never will, it's a stupid and unfair thing to say. I wouldn't have been posting here for several years if I thought that.

Linking Charles with CAIR in any form is ludicrous.

Is something clouding her judgment?

re: #13 Fjordman

Charles doesn't get to make mistakes. He doesn't get the benefit of the doubt from the Left. The first time MSM can link him to anything like neo nazis and their activities they will tar him forever.
What he said was prudent-and correct.

We must be vigilante of the "divide and conquer" moves by ALL of our enemies, both domestic amd world-wide. They know that a united front against them is the tactic they must avoid at all costs.

re: #14 dimestorenovel

Platinum!

I can't believe I read this sentence in Pamela's column.

Who the hell wasn't a nazi collaborator in Europe? Puhleeeeeze.

MY GRANDFATHER, who attacked a nazi armored train and was left for dead together with the other Freedom Fighters with him.
My Father, who was a FreedomFighter with the Partisans.

I can't believe this.

This is personal and bloody personal for me.

I feel like I'm missing something, but not quite sure what it is.

Another schismatic blog. Personally, I blame Peacekeeper.

re: #24 BulgarWheat

#13 Fjordman

P.S. I'm coming in "way" on the tail-end of this so I'm just going to sit back and find out what exactly happened before I run my yap. I think I know what's going on, but am not entirely certain.

It's about one post; the link to it is in the post above.

re: #21 Le_Patriot

Atlas Shrugs: "I assure you there was no neo nothing going on there. Charles painted this herculean effort with one ugly brush and took everyone and everything down with it."

Huh? I'm not gettin' it, I guess. I don't see it!

Neither do I. All Charles raised was a cautionary sentence regarding some, but hardly all, of the participants. There are those out there who side with us and are unsavory. There are those out there who side with us and we do not agree with them in some, or even many aspects. There are those here with whom I disagree.

However, we must stick together to win this, and must not become like them in order to win it. I don't want to become the dragon I'm attempting to slay.

This is the problem with the internet.

One disagreement can turn into flame wars that can doom a good friendship.

I am sitting here in my office and I can start flaming people left and right, if I feel that something offends me, with all of the anonymity I can want.

It's just terrible.

Pamela, Charles is the end-all-be-all of what is good in our world today and a disagreement with him doesn't change that.

Geez.

I'm surprised that she launched on Charles without at least talking to him first, as seems to be the case....

re: #25 Fjordman

it's a stupid and unfair thing to say.

Yes- it is. It's bad enough when your enemies say things like that about you, but when it's a friend who stabs you in the back- it's devastating.

Wow, this is really sad. Boy. If Charles is on the wrong side, I would hate to see what side the MSM and the PC socialist crowd are on.

I'm not even sure I get what the fuss is all about. I don't want to go saying people are on the wrong side. Both LGF and Atlas Shrugs have impeccable credentials as far as I am concerned, and this is confusing and troubling.

It's got to be a misunderstanding. It will pass.

I don't quite understand what this is all about. I'll lurk and listen till I catch on.

You'll have to kiss and make up. Lucky bastard.

#27: Well, but neither do we. We cannot go around being scared of what the Left says about us all the time or we've already lost. As anybody who has read my articles would know, I hate antisemitism and would never have set foot in a conference if I believed there were prominent anti-Semites there.

Food for thought:

David Duke.

I have a very difficult time thinking he turned into anything but a crypto-antisemite.

re: #34 Honorary Yooper

All Charles raised was a cautionary sentence regarding some, but hardly all, of the participants.

Which he has done many times in the past. My enemies enemy is not always a friend.

re: #13 Fjordman

#3: Look, I'm one of the people who learned the art of blogging from Charles and LGF, as some of you probably know. And I don't like criticizing him because this is one of the most important anti-Jihad websites not just in the United States, but in the world. But I did disagree with his initial reaction to the conference, and I still do. It must be allowed to say that.

And for the record: Yes, I was at that conference, too.

I'm not going to speak for Charles, but for me, it was the LGF-CAIR nexus that made her post beyond the pale. Respectful disagreement is one thing; personal insults are another.

What is wrong with caution, keeping an open mind and keeping our eyes wide open? I tell my children, question everything - don't be a sheep.

re: #39 mama winger

If you figure it out will you explain it to me, vvvvveeeeryyy slowly.

I love Atlas but she gets a little whacked sometimes. She's the female Savage.

re: #13 Fjordman "But I did disagree with his initial reaction to the conference, and I still do. It must be allowed to say that." Yes, of course you must be allowed to say that. But you don't have a blog. Moreover, you don't have a blog AND sometimes post over here. Read Pamela's first sentenance: "It is most unfortunate when a group of Islamic thugs get inspiration from LGF. I never thought I would see the day that CAIR and Charles over at Little Green Footballs would be aligned against a counter jihad movement but perhaps pigs do fly." and give me ONE good reason why she shouldn't have had the courtesy to talk to Charles about it first, if for no other reason than to get some clarification.

re: #13 Fjordman

For any organized effort to prevent a future Islamic Europe to succeed it cannot be viewed as simply a conservative or rightwing movement. It must include all types of people: religious Christians and Catholics, Gays, classical Liberals, atheists and even Leftists.

Without a broad spectrum of ordinary Europeans, it will simply be seen as a rightwing movement and therefore be dismissed as racist.

Sweet launch, cool to watch as usual. This one seemed very fast. The pilot must have it the nitro injector too soon.

re: #12 hayseed

Thanks, my 10 year old daughter and I got to watch. She'd never seen a liftoff before. :)

We must always be scrupulous about those with whom we ally ourselves.

I read the post that Pamela is referring to and I don't see the CAIR heart Charles connection. It's GROUPTHINK, Pamela, when you can't criticize anything related to a specific group. Lizards are not groupthinksters. We are free- thinksters. So, it is perfectly acceptable that we can criticize some shady figures at the counter- jihad summit, while at the same time supporting the overall counter- jihad effort. Pamela, it's time to apologize.

Not all people who pretend to espouse the values of the Western civilization actually do. Some bigots in Europe have forgotten that the West is also about freedom and tolerance. It's not fair to attack Charles for pointing that out.

re: #26 JammieWearingFool

I just hope that she has the decency to apologize to Charles. I am totally in shock at her error of judgement, and backing the wrong horse.

re: #53 Ward Cleaver

exactly.

Charles,

I believe you are in the right (as in correct) to be concerned with regard to the rising tide of ultra-right wing groups in Europe. (Another one is the Swiss People's Party which recently won a number of seats in Switzerland). (I find it curious that if political parties, such as the Sweden Democrats, were so desirous of distancing themselves from unsavory ultra-right wing associations, why would they choose to use terminology such as "final solution"? -- I don't think they are desirous of distancing themselves -- that's the problem. They think they can get political mileage by toying with certain notions. But racism is morally wrong, and parties which appeal to it, will eventually rue the day and regret that they were ever seen to endorse it.) (I am also very sorry to hear how Pamela views this situation.)

re: #53 Ward Cleaver

We must always be scrupulous about those with whom we ally ourselves.

amen....sometimes the enemies of our enemy are our enemies and like to use us as their useful idiots

re: #28 mbruce "We must be vigilante of the "divide and conquer" moves by ALL of our enemies, both domestic amd world-wide."
Yup, and apparently some of our "friends" to.

Pamela, I'm hoping you'll stand down, and turn down the rhetoric. We don't need an internecine flame war.

re: #25 Fjordman

To say he's in bed with cair?! Friends don't do that.

I've never said that and I never will, it's a stupid and unfair thing to say. I wouldn't have been posting here for several years if I thought that.

I might be incorrect, but I believe that Sharmuta might have been talking about the Atlas Shrugged article, in responding to your comment.

re: #36 Peacekeeper Yep and as I said on the DT concerning this, Ambush "journalism" is not something I'd want to be associated with.

LGF and Atlas Shrugs - my two favorite blogs. Let the rational thinking begin.

#50: I don't have any problems with that. One of the leading persons in my country to criticize the effects of Muslim immigration is a Gay rights activist and ardent Feminist. She's a good friend of Bruce Bawer. I'm not a Feminist at all, but I love her work and have no problem with cooperating with her. I'd even cooperate with sensible Leftists, if I could actually find some. OK, a few do exist.

re: #65 debutaunt

LGF and Atlas Shrugs - my two favorite blogs. Let the rational thinking begin.

Careful there, debutant. You don't want to cause a quantum instability and destroy the universe, now, do you? ;-)

Robert Spencer is one of the most lucid players in this whole effort. He is never prone to emotional statements, sticking slavishly to the facts. He, as vehemently as he has ever done with anyone, denounced all of the Neo-Nazi parties and their ideology. Not everyone is on an even keel like Spencer.

I totally missed the original thread put up by Charles last Friday on this issue. I'm going to go back and read it now.....

I've read Atlas's post regarding this and I also participated in charles's thread. All is see is that Charles was pointing out that there were scheduled to be some rather unsavory characters at the conference...

We have to be careful to not align our fight in the WOT with very bad right wing groups in the same way the Dems have aligned with very bad left wing groups...

re: #32 Dirk Diggler

It's not my fault/yes it is. No. Yes. Wait...

re: #39 mama winger Read the link to Atlas that Charles provided. Read, if you will, the first sentence in her peice (it would be better to read the whole thing, but the first sentence is what writers use to "set up" the tone of the entire piece.
Then remember that Pamela posts (or used to post) over here. That in a number of ways Charles helped her with her blog. Then ask yourself "why didn't she check this with Charles for clarification before publishing it".
Then you'll understand what this is all about.

The reason Islaomofascism disgusts me is not because it's Islamic, but because it's fascist.

I don't want anything to do with any form of Nazism, whether Muslim, neo or moonbat.

re: #30 Poitiers-Lepanto

I am so sorry...that is like a knife in the back for you.

G-d bless your family for their courage and decency.

I trust Robert Spencer like I trust Charles - voices of reason.

Charles painted this herculean effort with one ugly brush and took everyone and everything down with it."

Everyone and everything?

Pamela, what bullshit - and you know it's bullshit. All he did was express some doubts of his own and give his readers some resources to decide for themselves.

I wonder - before publicly slamming Charles on a specious charge, did Pamela confer with him in private as a friend? Or did she just go PR-stunt-batshit?

Europe's handwringing over Islamization is sadly too little, too late.

For better or worse, Islamists have a Foundation ... their religion.

What is Europe's Foundation? ... Collectivism? Nihilism? Negative Population Growth? Hedonism?

The only potential defense Europe had was Nationalism ... and that was so massively abused in two world wars that its resurgence (in a benevolent form) is unlikely.

And what the marxofascists and the islamofascists DREAM of, is that the antijihadists get mixed in any way with the neonazi mud.
It would be their final victory.
Prudence is of strategic importance.

re: #35 AG in Houston

This is the problem with the internet.

One disagreement can turn into flame wars that can doom a good friendship.

I am sitting here in my office and I can start flaming people left and right, if I feel that something offends me, with all of the anonymity I can want.

It's just terrible.

Pamela, Charles is the end-all-be-all of what is good in our world today and a disagreement with him doesn't change that.

Geez.

Ditto.

LGF is the premier anti- Islamofascism site.

Those of us who have frequented LGF for years ‘know’ Charles. Pamela ‘knows’ Charles.

“By their fruit you will recognize them.”

This is entirely uncalled for from Atlas Shrugs.

I’m standing by Charles on this one.

re: #72 realwest

Gotcha, realwest. I'm also going to look at the thread from last Friday that Charles linked to - totally missed that one.

I stopped going to her site after the bikini in the shallows monologue episode...

#68: Robert Spencer probably thought well through the evidence before going to the conference, and in my view he made the right choice. He's a very good speaker, by the way, but I already knew that. So is Andy.

#33 Charles

Thanks for the reply. I'll review and educate myself before further posting on the issue. As I mentioned up-thread, I've been a pretty bad offender of jumping to conclusions and this is something I can improve on.

what a disappointment, pamela. charles has mentored you and then you turn like this over ONE post?

get a clue. NOW who's painting with a broad brush?!?

re: #74 NY Nana

re: #30 Poitiers-Lepanto

I am so sorry...that is like a knife in the back for you.

G-d bless your family for their courage and decency.

Thank you VERY MUCH.
Literally, a knife in the back.

I am noy OK in this moment, I will be back.

I thought Atlas had thicker skin than that. Very disappointed that we're slashing at each other even as our enemies celebrate making clowns out of our government in the Holy Land Foundation trial.

Focus, people...focus!

re: #82 Fjordman

#68: Robert Spencer probably thought well through the evidence before going to the conference, and in my view he made the right choice. He's a very good speaker, by the way, but I already knew that. So is Andy.

Robert Spencer made the right decision for himself......Charles decision was right for himself.....different people, different decisions.....both decisions were right for the individual.....not wrong for either....just different

re: #76 wahabicorridor Judging from this thread, she just went "PR-stunt-batshit?".

re: #77 nolocon

What is Europe's Foundation? ... Collectivism? Nihilism? Negative Population Growth? Hedonism?

How about freedom?....I'm sure that more than a few Europeans could still get worked up about preserving their freedom...If only more of them would actually see the threat.

I posted at Atlas Shrugs when I saw her unexpected comments about LGF and Charles. Then I came here and saw this post by Charles.

It seems like Pamela's real complaint is that Charles didn't help promote the event. I don't know if that's true, but I also don't see how it matters.

Good, common sense teaches us to be extremely scrupulous when it comes to making allies. There is no need to go through a long litany of the varieties of extremist hate which have come out of europe in the last century, alone; it spans the spectrum. We must be careful in choosing those with whom we have common weal. With wisdom and truth as our weapon, our enemies will fall.

re: #75 dimestorenovel

I have never once found Charles' caution to be a liability- especially when the caution stems from being burned in the past. When you have a lot to lose, you vet your associates. When it comes to what we stand to lose to the islamofascists- vetting isn't just prudent, it's incumbent. And as a citizen journalist, is it not incumbent of Charles, Pamela and others to ask questions? Pointing out facts has gotten Charles called plenty of names in the past, but this is ridiculous.

There's an apalling paragraph in Atlas' article that says that Europeans have no choice but to be branded either surrender monkeys or neo-Nazis. This is nonsense. The French president is a straight-talker, and no one would call him a neo-Nazi. If you don't want your party to be branded neo-Nazi, kick out the SS veterans, say outright that you don't welcome anti-semites, and stop denying the holocaust.

re: #9 Peacekeeper

Your mutual enemies will be having a good laugh.

My first thought.

When I get all riled up (like a child) I come here to see what the adult has to say, that being Charles. Charles posted a few days back.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

It is this type of reasoned response, that enforces in me that I have a lot to learn and about the type of person I want to be when I "grow up."

I am grateful for Charles and his work.

The problem with this is the attack on each other. There are questions about vlaams blok / vlams belang's past and some members -- much of that is overblown, and over the top, but again there are grains of truth.

1. There is a streak of strong nationalism there, willingness to split with the EU, part of the reason the original VB was really made illegal. I don't see anything wrong with that -- the EU sucks.

2. There is also an unfortunate original stance that all "non-Euros" needed to go. That's unfortunate as it diminished their cause, and allowed the "racist neo-nazi" labels to stick. The stance has been softened to "those who don't assimilate must go" after the party reformed.

What needs to be attacked is CAIR"s message - Neo Nazi is well over the top, and where's the proof of "nazi collaboration" if it exists?

Pamela needs to review what Code Pink, Answer and the Palestinian movement do to the anti-war protests. They infiltrate into the group and subvert the cause (btw, I am not anti-war, I am just making a comparison).
Not everyone that appears to be on the same side, IS on the same side.

"Who the hell wasn't a nazi collaborator in Europe? Puhleeeeeze."
What stunning, offensive ignorance.

I like atlas,but some of her stuff seemed like who she could be seen with. name dropper,photo op and such

re: #30 Poitiers-Lepanto

From this Jew, and many others: May Hashem bless the souls of your righteous, fighting family and may you always enjoy the fruits of their efforts and their spiritual inheritance and live a long healthy life. May they all be looking at us from Heaven, sending us strength for the real battles with our enemies and keep us from battling our friends.

{P.L}

Equating Charles and LGF with CAIR is so mind boggling I don't know what to think. Charles raised some very reasonable questions. For Pamela to rant in such a fashion is very disappointing, LGF has stood firmly on our side from the start. I had a very hard time believing I was reading that.

Land Shark

re: #30 Poitiers-Lepanto

I can't believe I read this sentence in Pamela's column.

Who the hell wasn't a nazi collaborator in Europe? Puhleeeeeze.

Pamela, this single line from your column shows you're either ignorant on the matter, or a hateful scum. Either way, no more clicky for your blog.

She doesn't do "subtle" very well. She may yet apologize for getting carried away.

Anyone that reads LGF and Atlas regularly knows that these two blogs are very different animals. Charles is cautious and nuanced whereas Pamela is reactionary and in you face. The problem with reactionaries is they often overreact. When you overreact you often end up with egg on your face. Pamela clearly overreacted here. I read her blog daily and I think she has made a big mistake. I respect her commitment to her cause just as i do Charles'. There are different ways to skin a cat and Pamela needs to keep her eye on the enemy and not those that support her.

re: #97 Thanos

The problem with this is the attack on each other.

Please note: I haven't attacked anyone. Not the conference, and not Pamela.

re: #85 Poitiers-Lepanto

Please take care, and come back as soon as you can deal with that knife..as a Jew, I am astounded that another Jew would even think that way. I am so sorry...I was a kid during WWII, and blessed to be a second generation American. A lot of my Grandparents' family were not so lucky..they were not able to be saved by heroes like your Father and Grandfather, who put their own lives on the line.

re: #97 Thanos Thanos my friend, the problem here is with Pamela's linking CAIR and Charles. See her first sentence: " "It is most unfortunate when a group of Islamic thugs get inspiration from LGF. I never thought I would see the day that CAIR and Charles over at Little Green Footballs would be aligned against a counter jihad movement but perhaps pigs do fly."
I cannot for the life of me understand how she could possibly say that, or say that the way she did and look at herself in the mirror.
It's the linking of CAIR and Charles (and in more than that one, first sentence) that I believe this thread is all about.

As a newbie commenter here but someone who has read LGF for over 3 years now as well as read Atlas's blog from time to time since its inception, I am saddened by this. It seems to me that Charles was only being cautious for very good reason. Just as we see ultra-leftists align with Islam fanatics-- these very people who would murder them, we don't want to align with potentially ultra right fanatics (nazis), who would also murder many of us. Charles was only saying that it needs to be looked into before our mutual enemy is able to make a connection between Charles (as well as his supporters and like-minded bloggers) and those very groups. I, personally would like to know more about the groups and I hope we will get more insight into them before aligning ourselves with them.
Thank you Charles for the education I've gotten from reading this blog!

re: #106 Charles

re: #97 Thanos

The problem with this is the attack on each other.

Please note: I haven't attacked anyone. Not the conference, and not Pamela.

Sorry friend, wasn't referring to you. Already some commenters are going "anti-Atlas". I would counsel that's not a good idea. We need to stick together, focus on CAIR, and the allegations.

Atlas Shruged. A reference to that infamous atheist Ayn Rand's terrible book. Nuf said.

re: #110 Thanos

#101 WriterMom

Thanks for that post!

I feel like the little kid at the Thanks Giving table watching parents, uncles, and cousins fighting over something that would be trivial on any other day of the year.

I hope that Atlas at least responds to Charles. In my humble opinion he has extended the Olive Branch. She should hear him out.
Poitiers-Lepanto, my paternal Grand Father (German-Born from Cincinnati) was one of Wild Bill's lads. Their paths may have crossed.

If I understand it correctly, Atlas wanted Charles to jump on a bandwagon. Charles wanted to see who jumped on first. Atlas was a little peeved he wasn't the first one at the party. I did see the original thread. I did go read some of the Swedish parties lit. They got more than enough from LGF. An introduction.

Two distinct blogs. Two distinct styles. Very different. I think if Atlas would post great content about the conference, Charles might link to it. If she gets offended by the lack of attention and slings some slurs. Not much is going to happen.

Pamela is a women. Women get emotional....Sometimes they say things that they don really mean, especially after they've had a few glasses of wine.

/...well, it's true.

There's an apalling paragraph in Atlas' article that says that Europeans have no choice but to be branded either surrender monkeys or neo-Nazis.

That's probably one of my quotes, and I stand by that statement. What we are dealing with in Europe isn't immigration, it's colonization. If non-Europeans have the right to resist colonization then so do Europeans. How come we're called "racists" if we even hint we desire the right to self-preservation when this is taken for granted by everybody else on the planet? Is it because we're white? I'm sorry, but I have to ask that question.

let's all just keep calm. Pamela is one great gal and very dedicated.
A little over exuberance is not the end of the world. Charles you are a big boy, a leader very much respected, and a true ally so don't let this create a breech in the strong wall against the crazies of the world.
You and Pamela need to discuss this between yourselves and not say things that will hurt you both.

re: #110 Thanos
I doubt I will ever be anti atlas. I think she is too good looking.

re: #109 RW Blog Junkiette

I wish everyone would quit equating nazi with ultra-right-wing; that is a fallacy, people. The Nazi party was LEFTist!

Im so confused....I dont get why atlas shrugs would even say any of that.....i have been reading and posting here for a long time and on Robert Spencers website and I never saw this coming.....

BTW, the post I submitted to Atlas Shrugs basically says "I don't see your point. Charles posted Spenser's response to CAIR. Organizers of such events do need to be careful that they don't set themselves up for guilt-by-association attacks.""

re: #115 Ringo the Gringo

Pamela is a women. Women get emotional....Sometimes they say things that they don really mean, especially after they've had a few glasses of wine.

/...well, it's true.

/just because it's true doesn't mean you needed to say it!

Re; post 115

"who is this Ringo you speak of?"
Turns, ducks, looks, and runs..........

re: #99 troonbop

"Who the hell wasn't a nazi collaborator in Europe? Puhleeeeeze."
What stunning, offensive ignorance.

That comment of hers sounds like something Bigel would say.

It's up to groups like Vigilant Freedom to repudiate neo-Nazis and make every effort to keep them out of conferences like the one just past. We have an obligation to be better than those in the leftist-islamist convergence.

I had a run in with Pamela here a long time ago. She strikes me as slightly unstable.

As I recall, I corrected her on a minor detail concerning a trivial event (an airport shooting) and she exploded. She hurled all kinds of vitrol and abuse my way.

After that I never addressed her again or visited her blog.

re: #115 Ringo the Gringo

Why can't a woman be more like a man?

/Henry Higgins

re: #121 socalinfidel

Im so confused....I dont get why atlas shrugs would even say any of that.....i have been reading and posting here for a long time and on Robert Spencers website and I never saw this coming.....

it seems to me that pamela might feel like charles rained on her parade

re: #115 Ringo the Gringo

Pamela is a women. Women get emotional....Sometimes they say things that they don really mean, especially after they've had a few glasses of wine.

/...well, it's true.

Better not let Mandy hear you say that.

re: #110 Thanos I would suggest to you that the "we all need to stick together" should be directed at Pamela.
The folks here aren't anti-Pamela, they are anti the way Pamela links Charles and CAIR.
And, quite frankly, the non-attempt to speak to Charles about this before firing off that stupid column. Especially after all Charles has done for Atlas Shrugs.
That's the reason Charles titled this thread:
"When Friends Attack".

re: #129 Ward Cleaver

re: #115 Ringo the Gringo

Pamela is a women. Women get emotional....Sometimes they say things that they don really mean, especially after they've had a few glasses of wine.

/...well, it's true.

Better not let Mandy hear you say that.

Why? Will she get emotional about it? ;-)

re: #116 buzzsawmonkey

Yes, I don't understand it... Or, posted something here for discussion... Or not posting on this thread now?

This is bad. We need each other -- there are more people who are happy to be complacent than there are enemies of the jihadis. I think Pamela needs to step back and take a breath. She seems to be frustrated and lashing out, and that does no good for anybody. We all need to realize that questioning and criticizing make us stronger, and that strength can be turned on our enemies.

Charles - Whether you know it or not, I knew that Pamela had 'joined up' with some so-called 'moderates', who are really wolves in sheep's clothing, and if there is such a thing (I myself do not believe there is) as a moderate mohammedan, the rep for this outfit who was boasting of Pam's support was very touchy indeed when queried on his agenda.

I knew little of Pamela, but had more than my fair share of clues about mohammedanism, and the fact that this dude was boasting of her support whilst spewing the foulest of language at me was a huge red flag.

Charles, I read your original post and Pamela's post. All you apparently did was counsel caution and make a good point about who we associate with. Pamela is being too sensitive, making a mountain out of a molehill, and accentuating differences when better energy would be spent on the Himalayan amount of common ground WE ALL SHARE in our desire to shed light on this issue and mobilize against the threat of Islamofacism.

That being said, I have been at LGF for a while now. I read tons of blogs, and have my own blog. I noticed a while back that there are many more "mainstream", or less controversial, blogs which purposefully avoid linking back to LGF even when LGF breaks the story or has the most pertinent information. It is my belief that those other bloggers behave this way out of fear of being ostracized and accused of association with "extreme elements". It is also my opinion that many of those bloggers are making a wise choice, not because LGF is extreme (which LGF is not) but because those other websites have large "mainstream" audiences which are valuable target audiences and which should be shepherded carefully over to the "right" way of thinking. In order to successfully get the word out about Islamofacism the message has to be carefully put out there, and those less driven sites are no less useful in our collective mission than are the more compelling and involved sites such as yours. The same underlying motive which causes those sites to avoid linking to LGF is what I assume led to you counseling caution with regards to the summit in Europe. The fact that Pamela doesn't factor in the nuance of the situation or is not open to that logic should not mean she needs to draw lines in the sand.

Wow, I have said too much, damned coffee. I gotta go to class. I hope Pamela thinks about what she is doing. Charles, you got my support, as useless as it might be!

re: #120 cookielady

As I mentioned, I come here for an education. I appreciate anything you can inform me on. I am very sorry for my ignorance and if you can point me to anything to educate me further, I would love to learn. Thank you.

When you make enemies, you know they have knives.

When you make friends, it's always surprising to learn they have knives too.

"Atlas was a little peeved "

Yeah you could say that.

re: #104 Peacekeeper

Do not hold your breath, please.

re: #26 JammieWearingFool

Batman= Joker

Superman= Lex Luthor

LGF= CAIR

What's not to understand?

So, can I go OT now? Just to lighten up the situation?

Cuban Cadaver Warns of the Real Threat to World Peace.

You know you wanna click!

re: #125 Ward Cleaver

That comment of hers sounds like something Bigel would say.

lol, ain't it the truth.

Europe is a filthy, stinking, genocidal Nazi shithole.

I remember it not because it's clever, but because he repeated it so many damn times.

I bet the responsible thing would have been to contact her directly instead of making this even more public.

re: #130 realwest

re: #110 Thanos I would suggest to you that the "we all need to stick together" should be directed at Pamela.
The folks here aren't anti-Pamela, they are anti the way Pamela links Charles and CAIR.
And, quite frankly, the non-attempt to speak to Charles about this before firing off that stupid column. Especially after all Charles has done for Atlas Shrugs.
That's the reason Charles titled this thread:
"When Friends Attack".

Never said Pam was in the right.

This is all object lesson -- it's about being smart. The Vlaams Blok to Vlaams Belang evolution is an demonstration why you must stay united, but also how you must be careful who carries your banner. The CAIR press release is a smear, intended to tar all, diminish some, and also designed to create rifts.

Good grief, Pamela needs to make an appointment with the hormone doc.

re: #117 Fjordman

How come we're called "racists" if we even hint we desire the right to self-preservation when this is taken for granted by everybody else on the planet? Is it because we're white? I'm sorry, but I have to ask that question.

You're right to ask. Although, you must remember that in the United States it is not your ethnicity that makes you American, it's your loyalty to America and the ideas that it represents. Are you against immigration to Europe from, say Brazil or Botswana or the Philippines if those immigrants were happy to assimilate...or do you consider all immigration to be a form of "colonization" ?

re: #136 RW Blog Junkiette

Welcome aboard. The lizards are an informed, educated, wonderful bunch-but we can get emotional. So buck up and hold onto your hat!

BTW - This outfit has a blog and I will link to it using the fill-in-the-blank method if you are so interested: m-----s against sharia

Note the conjunction of crescent and peace symbol on the banner.

re: #123 phoenixgirl

Sorry.

I'm a guy...Sometimes we're harsher than we should be.

Atlas is a highly emotional and volatile person. Volatile people are liable to do volatile things.

re: #145 bikpela

This is not a hormonal issue. What a silly comment.

re: #152 buzzsawmonkey

OH YAH? WELL FOAD.

/lololol

It's a thin line between brilliance and lunacy.

re: #143 VinceP1974

I bet the responsible thing would have been to contact her directly instead of making this even more public.

Since Pamela chose to go public with her attack, I had no choice but to respond publicly. There's nothing irresponsible about that.

We need to keep our own house clean.

re: #115 Ringo the Gringo

Well. Now you did it.

Time for you to get out of Dodge. But duck first.

re: #154 archer

What are you on about?

re: #143 VinceP1974 I believe the responsible thing would have been for HER to contact Charles first. He didn't attack her in Public. She attacked him in public.
That's why this thread is entitled: When Friends Attack.

re: #156 Charles

I have to agree with you charles on this one... Optimially, a private discussion would have been best,when when the post went public, Charles is in every right, as a public blogging figure, to stand up for himself in the public arena...

I think Pamela owes Charles a big apology.

I can't think of anyone who's done more to oppose radical Islam on the Internet than Charles. To assert that LGF, its members, hell even Gordon, are in any way supportive of CAIR is patently absurd.

I think that Charles raises the right issue of the true poltical motivations of certain members of the anti-immigrant movement in Europe. Throwing out the left-wing bathwater without regard to leaving the baby to the tender mercies of the antidemocratic fascists is just one more gateway to hell.

As I've observed over the years, Europe has an organic 15 to 20% of its population who are fascist. I don't want them in power anymore, than I want Europe to be Islamicized.

As I remarked over the weekend, the victory by the Swiss Nationalist party, complete with their little posters three white sheep flooring out the dark black sheep makes me cringe.

There can be no question that immigration is the issue of the day in Europe. I trust traditional conservative parties handling the issue than the prospect of unknown parties with unknown agendas using the opportunity.

Europe needs some immigration. But Europe needs integrated immigration, not unassimilated masses opposed to the core values of their host societies. Conditioning residency upon loyalty to the host society's core values and democracy is a critical first step that transcends party identifications.

I believe that their many well-intentioned people, including people I admire, who feel the need for action is so urgent that they are willing to give free pass to any who hoist the banner of radical immigration reform. Nothing could be more dangerous to the movement than to have an unsolid foundation. A dubious alliance, with nefarious characters who cannot be trusted is dangerous, Hitler got into government by allying with others.

No one could more want Europe to get through these perilous times more than myself. But putting a happy face on a swastika doesn't change the fact that it's still a swastika. It is up to the people of Europe to pick wise leaders; racing from the dangers of Islamic fascism into the arms of native European fascism is not the answer.

I think everyone needs to take a breath and think this thing through very carefully. It is vital, given the demographic time bomb in the population erosion of Europe at the course of action be the right one, because there will not be a second chance.

re: #13 Fjordman

I don't wish to speak for Charles, but frankly I haven't read anything written by Charles that was critical of the Conference itself (or of the desire to present information/papers/articles on anti-Islamification topics). The contentious issue is about some (again, some) of the participants. There was a list of individuals who were to represent different nations. Filip Dewinter was to represent Belgium, for example. And some posters noted that he has an "unsavory" past. Others also noted that some of the political parties, BNP, etc., have been openly racist. Charles simply warned that making an alignment with such parties is problematic and potentially harmful.

re: #117 Fjordman

There's an apalling paragraph in Atlas' article that says that Europeans have no choice but to be branded either surrender monkeys or neo-Nazis.

That's probably one of my quotes, and I stand by that statement. What we are dealing with in Europe isn't immigration, it's colonization. If non-Europeans have the right to resist colonization then so do Europeans. How come we're called "racists" if we even hint we desire the right to self-preservation when this is taken for granted by everybody else on the planet? Is it because we're white? I'm sorry, but I have to ask that question.

The world seems to recognize the right to national self-determination. Well, at least for the Palestinians who aren't even a nation...

So it would seem that there must be a corresponding right to national self-preservation.

I agree that self-preservation is not the same as slavery or denial of civil rights. The term "racism" is sometimes used legitimately, but sometimes in our PC world it is simply used to smear and silence opponents.

re: #58 J.S.

(I find it curious that if political parties, such as the Sweden Democrats, were so desirous of distancing themselves from unsavory ultra-right wing associations, why would they choose to use terminology such as "final solution"? -- I don't think they are desirous of distancing themselves -- that's the problem. They think they can get political mileage by toying with certain notions. But racism is morally wrong, and parties which appeal to it, will eventually rue the day and regret that they were ever seen to endorse it.)

"final sdolution" is a left-wing meme...handed up to us (from hell) by the National Socialist workers party of Germany circa 1933-1945
R.I.H.
Rot In Hell

re: #154 archer

So, we have just been whiners for the seven years since the 9/11 attacks? Is that what you are saying?

re: #156 Charles

Very true, indeed.

re: #159 MarkX

I think I'll take your advice and scram.

re: #147 WriterMom

re: #136 RW Blog Junkiette

Welcome aboard. The lizards are an informed, educated, wonderful bunch-but we can get emotional. So buck up and hold onto your hat!

Thank you for the welcome! I'm slow at this (and nervous!) and still have a lot to learn regarding the comments thing. I also see how easily, when not meaning to, to say the wrong thing.
I also see how intelligent (and quick!) so many commenters are and I have to tell you, it's pretty intimidating!

re: #162 tfc3rid Indeed. See my #161.

re: #117 Fjordman

I don't have an argument with that. There's nothing wrong with wanting to preserve your way of life. Nevertheless, it's a fact that some of the people who jumped on the "anti-Islamism" bandwagon are actual racists.

I suppose these are 'collaborators' that have been honored by Yad Vashem?

Whenever I hear someone's a "racist" these days I just figure it's more nonsense from the liberal/left.

Can anyone shed some light on this de Winter fellow and Vlaams Belang?

Fjordman, what about those guys? -- racists?

I hate to say it, but let this be a lesson about Anne Raynd followers.

Pamela needs to back away from the keyboard and look at the bigger picture here. While we may not all agree that logic and reason alone will prevail in the fight against Islamofascism, comparisons to the enemy are never helpful. They are only a distraction and hurtful to the cause.

Sorry folks gotta run to the dentist - I'd almost rather be there than even think about Pamela's unfounded and poorly thought out (if thought out at all) attack on Charles.

I like LGF because of the transparency and that we agree to disagree sometimes. Like Dennis Prager says, agreement is secondary to clarity. Let's air out the subject and see where we disagree. That is all in an ideal world but around here LGFers come up with links and references and that is what Charles set up in the beginning.

re: #92 Sharmuta

Ummmm. I agree. Charles is cautious and wise. I think Robert Spencer is too.

re: #162 tfc3rid

Especially since Charles did nothing wrong in the first place.

Perhaps she has her knickers in a knot because Charles has so many nominations for best blog here, while I did not see even one for her.

there are some crackpots beginning to get into the illegal immigration debate and action,too. Switzerland has some isolationist party using immigration, to say the least.

A few thoughts, if I may:

1) We mustn't boycott Atlas' blog, because that would mean the divide and conquer tactic used by the terror supporters has worked.

2) With hindsight being 20/20, I am not sure if it was not more wise for Charles to avoid bringing up the conference altogether.

3) Had Charles not spoken up about these European groups, would CAIR have latched onto the idea that these groups have racist zeals? Is CAIR that incompetent as to monitor LGF to see what talking points they can get from Charles? They broad stroke their victims with the racism charge quite often, so I doubt they would need Charles' few sentences as inspiration for their next PR release.

4) I don't know if Atlas had communicated her views to Charles in private but this sudden outburst does nothing to advance our cause. It's a bump in the road, but it's a engine shaker.

Welcome to the club, Charles.

The issue can be summed up by two links:

A comment of mine on Gates of Vienna, about the unique dichotomy that applies to Europe.

which references a whole post, where I have a bitter spat with an uncharitable commenter named... Conservative Swede. Yes, the one mentioned in Atlas Shrugs' post.

The short of it:

I'm writing off Europe. The only ones who'll stand up to the Left/Islam unholy alliance there are those who think the "white heritage" of Europe needs to be preserved. Racial homogeneity, rather than the cultural homogeneity that I advocate. It would be terrible if Western Europe fell to Islam, but the vision of Europe in the minds of the only ones who are up to saving it isn't something to look forward to either.

I say let Europe fight in its own, idiosyncratic way. We're not helping each other, the way things currently are.

re: #175 Doug

I hate to say it, but let this be a lesson about Anne Raynd followers.

Ayn Rand had her faults, but she was a huge supporter of individualism and self-reliance. I don't see that as bad.

In a way, the Israeli settlers represent the exact same spirit.

That said, I've found the views of some of her supporters are inconsistent and even disturbing.

re: #171 realwest

Amen brotha!

re: #173 NY Nana

I suppose these are 'collaborators' that have been honored by Yad Vashem?

Thanks for posting that. The more I think about Pamela's vile quote, the angrier I get. Some European Gentiles risked their lives to save Jews; would Pamela have done as much for them?

Just for the record and as reference corroboration: the Gates of Vienna comment of mine I linked to.

---------

I realize I made a mistake.

No, I'm not recanting culturalism. I stand by the opinions I expressed there, and I haven't budged an inch from my view that racialism is both dangerous and to be abhorred.

My mistake was to fail to see how important a part the perception of race plays in the identity of the nations of Europe (especially Western Europe). I made the fallacy of carrying over what I'm familiar with to what I'm not familiar with.

Contrary to the Leftscum's portrayal of Israel as "racist apartheid state", the situation in Israel militates against seeing things through racialist glasses. For example, the hot-button issue of racial profiling does not exist in Israel, because it would be rendered totally useless by false positives (Jews who look like Arabs) and false negatives (white, blue-eyed Arabs--plenty of those in the Galilee). Culture and religion are the only possible defining parameters where I live.

But Europe is different. I have realized that pretty much the only ones in Western Europe ready to take on the Muslim colonialist invaders are the racialists. And when I gave that fact--lamentable in my mind, but a fact nevertheless--some thought, I realized it's because the issue of "whiteness", or race, is inextricably tied to European identity. That it is well-nigh impossible to treat the Islamic invasion in isolation, ignoring the general issue of non-white immigrants.

I was hoping to see the anti-Islamization movement completely removed from the general immigration problem, but now I understand it's not possible. While Israel and the USA are melting-pot societies, bound by cultural cohesion to varying degrees of success (Israel more so than the USA), Europe has historically experienced meltings and mixings only among white cultures: the admixture of Celts, Romans and Franks to make up France is a prominent example. Native Europe never was and is not now ready to accept the idea that non-whites can share its heritages in substantial numbers. Spengler of Asia Times makes a compelling case for Christianity as a common heritage, a melting-pot, for the most varied of races; but he then makes the case that the Christian religion never ultimately succeeded in taking the primal pagan urge, the racial tendency, out of Europe. I used to be skeptical of that claim of his. Not anymore.

I have therefore decided to comment on Europe only in those situations where I am reasonably certain my view is not a derivative of my parochial experience. On principle, I support the resistance against Islamic imperialism wherever it is taken up; in practice, I realize the sameness of that enemy doesn't amount to the sameness of the general situation everywhere. Let Europe find its mode of combating Islam as best it can. I can express personal disgust at racialism, but I cannot change a mindset which, I now realize, has had its thousands of years to become entrenched.

re: #175 Doug

I hate to say it, but let this be a lesson about Anne Raynd followers.

Agreed. Ayn Rand and her atheist philosophy are far more dangerous than moderate Islam. At least Muslims have some sort of faith, even if radicals distort it.

re: #179 dimestorenovel

Charles is cautious and wise.

And may he stay that way. It's one of the reasons why so many of us come here in the first place. His caution and wisdom have laid a foundation of trust, and it's why LGF is the Gold Standard in blogs.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to preserve your way of life. Nevertheless, it's a fact that some of the people who jumped on the "anti-Islamism" bandwagon are actual racists.

OK, but regarding Sweden, this is a country where merely displaying your national flag is considered "racist." The rest of Europe is only slightly better. So how much leverage does that leave average citizens?

re: #127 Peacekeeper

re: #115 Ringo the Gringo

Why can't a woman be more like a man?

/'enry 'iggins

fixed that

re: #115 Ringo the Gringo

Pamela is a women. Women get emotional....Sometimes they say things that they don really mean, especially after they've had a few glasses of wine.

/...well, it's true.

Sorry RtheG, I had to ding you down on that one. Wow.

I agree with Charles on this. I've just looked up info myself on this Vlaams Belang group and I wouldn't attend anything they were at. This party is connected to what is being termed "racists murders." The VB is always saying they aren't racists, but....many members are connected to radical youth groups, ie neo-nazi skinheads.

Sorry Pamela, but when you associate with people like this, you dumb-down your message. Also, as far as CAIR repeating what Charles wrote here at LGF and using it in their press release, the only thing learned from that is that they read LGF. For you to imply there is more of a link, is disgusting.

Some people become useful idiots and some people just become idiots.

We've all said things in the heat of the moment that were mean, stupid and just wrong. The real test is what comes after.

re: #189 Sharmuta

If Charles is wary, it is for good reason. I have come to trust his judgement.

Song: A Hymn to Him

HIGGINS
What in all of heaven could've promted her to go,
After such a triumph as the ball?
What could've depressed her;
What could've possessed her?
I cannot understand the wretch at all.

Women are irrational, that's all there is to that!
There heads are full of cotton, hay, and rags!
They're nothing but exasperating, irritating,
vacillating, calculating, agitating,
Maddening and infuriating hags!
[To Pickering]
Pickering, why can't a woman be more like a man?
PICKERING
Hmm?
HIGGINS
Yes...
Why can't a woman be more like a man?
Men are so honest, so thoroughly square;
Eternally noble, historic'ly fair;
Who, when you win, will always give your back a pat.
Well, why can't a woman be like that?
Why does ev'ryone do what the others do?
Can't a woman learn to use her head?
Why do they do ev'rything their mothers do?
Why don't they grow up- well, like their father instead?
Why can't a woman take after a man?
Men are so pleasant, so easy to please;
Whenever you are with them, you're always at ease.
Would you be slighted if I didn't speak for hours?
PICKERING
Of course not!
HIGGINS
Would you be livid if I had a drink or two?
PICKERING
Nonsense.
HIGGINS
Would you be wounded if I never sent you flowers?
PICKERING
Never.
HIGGINS
Well, why can't a woman be like you?
One man in a million may shout a bit.
Now and then there's one with slight defects;
One, perhaps, whose truthfulness you doubt a bit.
But by and large we are a marvelous sex!
Why can't a woman take after like a man?
Cause men are so friendly, good natured and kind.
A better companion you never will find.
If I were hours late for dinner, would you bellow?
PICKERING
Of course not!
HIGGINS
If I forgot your silly birthday, would you fuss?
PICKERING
Nonsense.
HIGGINS
Would you complain if I took out another fellow?
PICKERING
Never.
HIGGINS
Well, why can't a woman be like us?
[To Mrs. Pearce]
Mrs. Pearce, you're a woman...
Why can't a woman be more like a man?
Men are so decent, such regular chaps.
Ready to help you through any mishaps.
Ready to buck you up whenever you are glum.
Why can't a woman be a chum?
Why is thinking something women never do?
Why is logic never even tried?
Straight'ning up their hair is all they ever do.
Why don't they straighten up the mess that's inside?
Why can't a woman behave like a man?
If I was a woman who'd been to a ball,
Been hailed as a princess by one and by all;
Would I start weeping like a bathtub overflowing?
And carry on as if my home were in a tree?
Would I run off and never tell me where I'm going?
Why can't a woman be like me?

I'm not picking sides in this silly spat.

There are bigger fish to fry.

re: #197 dimestorenovel

Absolutely. He's earned my trust.

re: #194 EmeraldLakeEyes

Sorry RtheG, I had to ding you down on that one. Wow.

That's alright. I tried to give myself a negative after I posted but you can't rate yourself.

/...it still true though.

ZionistYoungster: I hate Islam passionately. Defeating the global Jihad, also in Thailand, the Philippines, India and the Sudan, is a very real concern for me. I will support any serious, civilized measure non-Muslims do anywhere to contain Islam. I always have, and I always will.

re: #188 davetrack

re: #175 Doug

I hate to say it, but let this be a lesson about Anne Raynd followers.

Agreed.
Ayn Rand and her atheist philosophy are far more dangerous than
moderate Islam. At least Muslims have some sort of faith, even if
radicals distort it.

Where you see "faith" ... I see a tribal cult ... with cousins intermarrying. A very poor understanding of sex. And, of consequences.

The strength of islam, besides its portability ... so that it carries into every single nation that has ever seen a trading caravan; is that the first group that SUBMITS is the WOMEN!

Well, brothers, cousins, uncles and fathers, have a tendency to feel great about killing off a woman "who isn't of the mold."

So, what's left are these terrified women, living under tablecloths. Who cannot even leave home, if they are not accompanied by one of their male "relatives."

That this curse has reached major terror status is something else. Since the "faith" was stopped at the Gates of Vienna. You could assume it doesn't blend all that well with European stock.

You could also notice that Turkey has yet to be included in the EU. (Whether or not the EU gets successfully shoved down european throats, is another matter."

America had it's belly full of savages. Where, today, you hardly find any American Indians left. The nudity. The feathers. The horseback riding skills. The flying arrows. Gone now. (Though those bows that shot those arrows ... found the best thread to be the wires that were hung to "halp" the telegraph send its messages.)

Can we learn a thing from that?

There was also a time, in America, when the American Indians began to get "fearful." This came when the American Indians couldn't stop traffic. Settlers just kept coming.

And, ya know what? To save their skins, the Indians ran into the American Forts, and expected American soldiers to protect them. A contest all but lost, now.

Who sez Americans buy into the myths? I don't think so.

And, who sez Americans aren't armed? We've got both a Second Amendment; and such healthy gun sales, you can buy a rifle and bullets at Wal-marts. Nah. It's not for hunting big game. It's for protection.

What's it gonna take for the muslims in America to discover this? I have no idea.

As to the wildfires in California; we're gonna have to cut back in going after "illegal Mexicans" who have jobs! Sure. There's an insane Federal policy out there. Do you know why? James Baker, of Baker, Botts & Moneybags, is back in the White House. Playing tricks.

re: #202 Fjordman

Even if that means aligning yourself with racists and/or anti-Semites?

"Charles will have to decide if he's going to be with us, or stay on the wrong side."

I am so sorry to see this written :(
Some people are jumping on the band wagon there :(

If Charles is on the wrong side, I hate to see what the right side means of which side I don't care to be.

Frustration of getting the word out on this should not be used to slur your friends.

Tomorrow is another day and I hope this will be resolved......for all our sakes. The bad guys want to divide us and lets not let this happen Pamela.

re: #188 davetrack,

Show me the moderates you think we can live with. All I've heard out of them is that we have to "understand" why they chant "Death to America".

I would say this: Thank God I'm not Atlas's ex. Hell, hath no fury.......

re: #184 ibrodsky

re: #175 Doug

I hate to say it, but let this be a lesson about Anne Raynd followers.

Ayn Rand had her faults, but she was a huge supporter of individualism and self-reliance. I don't see that as bad.

In a way, the Israeli settlers represent the exact same spirit.

That said, I've found the views of some of her supporters are inconsistent and even disturbing.

When people cherry pick from a belief system then everything is up for grabs because you can cherry pick the bad things. Individualism and self-reliance are good things, but when you consistently sacrifice friends in blind pursuit of making a point of either, what good is it then? We talk about what is good and bad for "society" as conservatives, but should we shun society over self-reliance? What kind of children would we raise? Come to think of it, I can't say I've met an Ayn Rand follower who has children.

re: #158 Killgore Trout

We need to keep our own house clean.

/so now i need to clean my house?

#153 WriterMom

Heh, talk about emotional!

I had somebody on another blog I sometimes post on go all ballistic on me, because she said I make too many snide remarks about fat people! (?) So it goes!

How ya doing, WriterMom? I'm holding out here among all the fires---we're fine, so far.

#204: I've already said quite clearly that I will never make common cause with anti-Semites. Besides, it's a mute point, since anti-Semites are almost Muslims in my book, anyway. We don't have any "common cause."

re: #202 Fjordman

Ditto from me, and I support any effort to combat Islam in Europe, as everywhere else.

But... why is the resistance to the Islamization of Europe dominated by those who frequently like to bring up studies showing how "blacks have a lower average IQ than whites"? What, just what, does that serve?! I don't care what the EU-Leftist-Dhimmis say--even in and of itself, in isolation, this has disastrous potential.

And I already covered it, way back. Last March, to be specific.

re: #210 buzzsawmonkey,

That's would be my thought as well, but we keep being assured that islam is a religion of peace. I, myself, don't see it. I have never seen it, although I, like most others, ignored it as the threat grew prior to 9-11.

Note: this is not a racial thing. There are apostate Arabs whom we can live with just fine. It is Mohammedans of whom I speak.

Somewhere, a few are exulting over this. It will come as no surprise to identify EXACTLY who.

re: #209 phoenixgirl

HAHAHAHA.

re: #215 irongrampa

Somewhere, a few are exulting ululating over this.

Fixed that for ya.

Now, I must lunch.

re: #148 Cap'n DOC

BTW - This outfit has a blog and I will link to it using the fill-in-the-blank method if you are so interested: m-----s against sharia

Note the conjunction of crescent and peace symbol on the banner.

Now I understand. Had a few words with them myself...

re: #211 TalkinKamel

KAMEL. You can talk to me about fat people if you like. Or skinny people...Whatever your little Kamel heart desires.

#198 Peacekeeper

With all due respect to Alan Jay Lerner, I don't think it's fair to blame all us chicks just 'cause Pamela had an outburst.

re: #211 TalkinKamel

#153 WriterMom

Heh, talk about emotional!

I had somebody on another blog I sometimes post on go all ballistic
on me, because she said I make too many snide remarks about fat people!
(?) So it goes!

Do fat people leave fat fingerprints on keyboard buttons?

Exactly how does "fat" get across Internet wires? Squirrels "chew the fat" or something?

Some blog owners deal with the "personal attack business" by stopping comments, altogether. And, then you have Lucianne. A staff of biting headline writers; coupled to very strict posting rules. "No praying out loud," is one of them.

re: #218 allahakchew

And they actually let your comments stand? They have several 'monitors' who tag team their way to sweeping out the house frequently.

Just to make short and clear what my message is:

Europe is different. Truths that apply to the situation in the USA or Israel or Thailand aren't necessarily applicable to Europe. Like it or not, that's reality.

My above comment to Cap'n Doc was about this

re: #134 Cap'n DOC

Charles - Whether you know it or not, I knew that Pamela had 'joined up' with some so-called 'moderates', who are really wolves in sheep's clothing, and if there is such a thing (I myself do not believe there is) as a moderate mohammedan, the rep for this outfit who was boasting of Pam's support was very touchy indeed when queried on his agenda.

I knew little of Pamela, but had more than my fair share of clues about mohammedanism, and the fact that this dude was boasting of her support whilst spewing the foulest of language at me was a huge red flag.

re: #186 David Simon

David,

I am still sitting here in a form of shock. That was the type of comment I would expect from an ignorant individual who knew nothing of the Shoah and/or WWII..not from someone who seemed to be very aware...it is the type of comment that will, I hope, come back to haunt her for the sheer disdain that she just spewed that out with.

Any of us who lost family in the camps and ovens owe a special debt to the Righteous Christians who gave shelter, and often at the cost of their own lives.

To see one and all lumped in a single basket, (and I hope that I am wrong in thinking that she is linking the victims in as collaborators)..spit on like that?

Was she even thinking when she wrote that? Did she read the whole post before she hit 'post'? If so, then I honestly think she has gone spare.

I used to read her blog daily, and post comments. I have not in ages.

It had become too 'I,I,I, me, me, me...wheras LGF is about reality.

No one on earth could ever accuse Charles of having an egocentric blog.

I am just disgusted. Yes, I am we aware of the attacks LGF has taken, and the personal attacks on hate blogs, but never, ever expected this from Pamela.

I would also like to see her come over here and apologize for a totally unwarranted assault, but I do not expect one.

To slime, albeit unintentionally (I hope) the ones who were heroes and selfless in their courageous actions, and lump them in with the 'Take our Jews, please' cabal?

Unforgivable.

The conference was a good idea. I hope the movement continues, bit it seems like people have trouble maintaining their focus.

It wasn't called 'The conference for a Perfect World'.

Folks need to keep their eye on the ball.

re: #218 allahakchew

LOL. I also just remembered - My first question was rather a statement, whereby I suggested that rather than call their statement of beliefs a Manifesto, that they really ought to consider something a little less harsh - like Mission Statement. I guess they didn't like the idea that I'd ripped their thesis off of the pseudo-mosque door.

175 Doug says:

"I hate to say it, but let this be a lesson about Anne Raynd followers."

Hey douchbag, you don't know the first thing about Rand or her followers. Her name is Ayn Rand and Pamela is no friend of Ayn Rand.

When I asked that Pamela give proper credit to Ayn Rand for the obviously stolen title of her blog and to stop promoting the books of Rand's enemies (Barbara Brandon's smear "The Passion of Ayn Rand") and to start promoting the pro-Rand book "The Passion of Ayn Rand's Critics," she informed me that I was free to stop visiting. That is not a rational person talking.

So Doug, Since you are probably parroting the diseased opinions of one of your professors, I invite you to read Atlas Shrugged and learn first hand what Miss Rand has to say. It is foolish to use someone else's judgment in making pronouncements about that which you are ignorant

re: #206 Iron Fist

re: #188 davetrack,

Show me the moderates you think we can live with. All I've heard out of them is that we have to "understand" why they chant "Death to America".

Those aren't the moderates. What is the name of the Arizona doctor who used to serve in the US Navy and was one of the moderates featured in the PBS production that got dropped...

re: #228 wyattstorch
It might be a good thing if you refrained from the name-calling...

re: #191 Fjordman

I suppose one could ask -- Who were the Conference organizers? Were they knowingly allowing supremacists to participate? If so, why? Would it have been that difficult to weed them out?

Recently I read about an incident here in Canada...It was municipal election day (in Calgary) and a band of neo-nazis got together to protest the decision by Elections Canada to allow Muslim women to wear full-face coverings and vote. I believe some scuffle took place. (There was some other fellow who showed up wearing a ski mask.) I really dislike the fact that ultra-right wing groups will try to hi-jack certain issues, and use it to advance "their cause" (which is openly racist). Personally, I object to the wearing of face coverings -- regardless of who's wearing it -- and I strenuously disagree with the Election Canada's decision to allow face coverings. Again, my disagreement rests with the Election Canada people -- not Muslims per se. It has nothing to do with "being Muslim" -- it's about voter fraud and identification issues. It's similar, btw, with respect to immigration policies -- if your borders are wide open and officials are negligent in seeing who's allowed entry -- should Muslims be blamed? Is that their fault or our fault?)

Europe is different.

No, Europe isn't different, Europe is being treated differently. Why should we fund our own colonization and applaud when we are gradually being reduced to a minority in our own countries? I don't see the Thais, the Japanese, the Chinese are anybody else doing so, so why should we have to?

re: #229 Lauraf

The moderates you can live with do not practice mohammedanism.

re: #222 Cap'n DOC

re: #218 allahakchew

And they actually let your comments stand? They have several 'monitors' who tag team their way to sweeping out the house frequently.

They had no control over the matter.
They were commenting on a blog that wasn't theirs.....:)
hmmm, have to see if I can find it as it may prove interesting :)

#231: And which "supremacists" participated in the conference? Can you name one? Patrick Sookhdeo?

re: #101 WriterMom

Thank you very much.

re: #107 NY Nana

re: #85 Poitiers-Lepanto

Please take care, and come back as soon as you can deal with that knife..as a Jew, I am astounded that another Jew would even think that way. I am so sorry...I was a kid during WWII, and blessed to be a second generation American. A lot of my Grandparents' family were not so lucky..they were not able to be saved by heroes like your Father and Grandfather, who put their own lives on the line.

And that's why I posted and run away... to talk about my anger with G*d alone (and ThunderWord).
Since Pamela is Jewish, I must assume that Her Family has greatly suffered from the horrors of the Holocaust, so I have no right to answer in full, saying what I really feel.
I understand that Europe looks like a real POS, seen from the distance of an ocean and from the distance of Holocaust.
But to say that Europeans have been all the same is a giant offense to the (admittedly, few) who fought the beast as well as they could, and some...better that they could.
And strangely enough, only the neonazis of today want to paint the past with one big gray color, diffuse the divide.
No way.

There is a lot more to say, this is an infinite puzzle.

May G*d bless us all with Wisdom, Compassion and Justice.

Pamela, Pamela, Pamela . . . don't tug on Superman's cape.

#167 WriterMom

Actually, what I really want to talk about are the Lizard people who live beneath L.A.! But Charles has sworn me to secrecy, and threatened to hit me with a giant flan, if I do, so my scaley green lips are sealed!

Yeah, that's all we've been doing since 9/11! Whining, and drowning ourselves in oozy vanilla flans of negativity! We should just trust the racial supremecists, and not question their motives. After all, we've seen, over the course of the 20th Century, that they REALLY have EVERYBDY'S best interests in mind. . .

Seriously, I'm very much in favor of nations preserving their own heritage, and character, but falling in with skinhead/racist types is making a bargain with the devil, and will cost us down the road. We also shouldn't fall into the trap of, "They're the only ones fighting Islamofacism", or, "Theirs is the only way of fighting Islamofacism!"

re: #202 Fjordman

I would concur here. I think this is where we want to head. I am leery of people in Europe being labeled rascist. I want to know more about the one throwing the epithet first. People use that term pretty loosely these days with the difinition meaning. "you're a racist if you differ from me"

Better than

PIMF

Perhaps one aspect which hasn't been mentioned yet may help to explain (though not excuse) the intemperate language of Pamela: we are all aware, on this and other blogs, of how desperate the situation is world-wide, but especially with regard to Europe and, since this gathering of over 70 organizations appears to be the first, concerted effort to deal honestly and openly with the crisis, so many people's hopes are riding on its eventual success. Perhaps, therefore, what was only Charles's sensible caveat, may have appeared as a threatening dampner.

It is always best to remain calm, present facts and, especially, 'wait upon events', as the best way to restore equilibrium. These are early days for this organization but, already, events are developing a momentum in European countries which may bring many more people, groups and interests into the fight against Islam.

In England, the 'penny has finally dropped' regarding the enormous burden of over-immigration, how it is affecting, negatively, the social, educational, medical and political infrastructures. I have just read today comments in major English newspapers confirming what organizations like MigrationWatch (which was hitherto labelled as 'racist') have been saying for years. On the Continent, several countries are now admitting that their pension schemes and national health facilities can no longer bear the burden.

The ground is actually shifting and this means changing alignments, with interests and parties, previously divergent, beginning to realise the need to agree common and urgent points.

One personal point I would like to make, having lived in a few European countries: what has happened in Britain and on the Continent is not just 'immigration,' or 'colonization': it is, quite literally, an 'invasion' stoked in very large part by huge numbers of illegal aliens, previously referred to as 'asylum seekers' and, as the Daily Telegraph today finally admits, this has resulted in the most significant shift in European (and British) population alteration in centuries, with no real thought as to the eventual and, possibly, bloody, outcome. Yes, by all means, be cautious over 'racism' but realize, too, that the indigenous peoples of Europe and Britain were given no say in this massive, largely negative transformation of their lands and values and it is not racist of them to object and to seek to change the situation rather than face their own annihilation.

re: #233 Cap'n DOC

re: #229 Lauraf

The moderates you can live with do not practice mohammedanism.

Maybe I don't understand what mohammedanism is. I assumed it meant Islam.

It looks like two different interpretations of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".

It is possible that different camps can resist a perceived threat for entirely different reasons and in entirely different ways.

One is simply being wisely cautious here.

I love Pam, but she is being over-reactive to Charles observations here.

I have to agree with wyattstorch in one big respect: "Atlas Shrugs" is not an Objectivist and no friend of Ayn Rand. Her name might be similar to one of Ayn Rand's novels, but her beliefs are wildly different from Rand's beliefs.

And personally, I don't think "Atlas Shrugs" is a proper name to use for someone who doesn't follow or believe what is in the book. At best the name is confusing, and at worst the name is dishonest.

In reply to #208:
"Come to think of it, I can't say I've met an Ayn Rand follower who has children."

You obviously have not met many Objectivists.

re: #225 NY Nana

Very well said.

And I don't expect an apology from her either. I'm afraid that the pretty exterior masks a very ugly soul.

Isn't labelling someone a "racist," or a "sexist," or an "islamophobe," all part of the PC, multicultural tao of cutting off debate?

If this happened in an editorial page instead of a blog wouldn't we recognize this as a mere rhetorical gambit Atlas used to pretend that Pamela has the "high moral ground," while all she's really done is name call?

Guilt by association is a fallacy.
The two groups can both be for the same actions with regards muslims while one group is slimy and the other is not.

I'm sorry she went this route, but she surely isn't the first.

#243 Son of the Godfather

I like Pam too, but I have to agree with you. We do need to be cautious here. We've been burned too many times on this "moderate Moslem" thing, all too often supporting people who turned out to be not so moderate after all.

And while I'm sympathetic to the Europeans, and would like to see Europe, and its many cultures survive, and prosper---well, let's face it; we've been pretty badly burned by racists and neo-Nazi types during the 20th Century to! Remember, such people are mainly interested in the survival of their own "superior' race. They might oppose militant Islam, but, unfortunately, they might oppose the rest of us non-superior types too. Certainly, here in the US, a lot of neo-Nazi groups have been supportive of the jihadis. It really is a good idea to be cautious here.

re: #236 Poitiers-Lepanto

I cannot even pretend to understand what caused her to say what she did. It was and is abhorrent. I just hope that you know that it was just Pamela that feels that...the large majority of the rest of us, religion irregardless, are not on her wavelength. When on either writes a blog or posts on a blog, the 'preview' option is there. I wonder how many of us, upon previewing a post, either edit or delete it when we see that it is not appropriate to post?

She apparently did not bother to. If she did? Then that is even more egregious.

I did read her post, and the comments. I see that she now cherry picks comments. I don't remember it being like that when I last posted one there ,but it is a long time ago.

I honestly think that she has tarnished her reputation. Sad, as she has been very brave in some of her posts.

She learned at the master's feet, but seems to have forgotten her roots.

Please know that we look at your family with admiration and gratitude.

re: #56 NY Nana

re: #26 JammieWearingFool

I just hope that she has the decency to apologize to Charles. I am totally in shock at her error of judgement, and backing the wrong horse.

If she doesn't apologize for being WRONG, I won't be reading her again. This attack is utterly disgusting. This isn't about boycotting her. If she is this wrong and exaggerating something I know not to be true, how can I trust her other info that I may not know as much on?

There are other good blogs to fill my time with.

Why can't the lefties
Be more like the right?
Right wingers are moral,
So thoroughly kind.
A better companion you never will find.
Who, when you're down will always give your back a pat.
Well, why can't the lefties be like that?

Why does ev'ryone think as the others do?
Can't a lefty learn to use his head?
Marching in lockstep is all they ever do.
Why don't they march to their own drummers instead?
Why can't the lefties be more like the right?
The right has cojones, stands up for the Jews.
While the left are just pussies, who want them to loose.
Would you be slighted if I fought against the jihad?
PICKERING
Of course not!
HIGGINS
Would you be livid if the Jews put up a fence?
PICKERING
Nonsense.
HIGGINS
Would you be wounded if I called the UN crooked?
PICKERING
Never.
HIGGINS
Well, why can't the lefties see some sense?

re: #188 davetrack

People who follow Rand's philosophy, even to the point of sharing her atheism, are not even close to being as bad as Islamists. Objectivist ethics don't teach people to whack the heads off unbelievers. Rand personally thought that religion was inherently delusional, but never advocated the use of force to dissuade believers. The First Amendment puts it well. The law should neither favor a particular religion, nor infringe upon the free exercise of any faith.

As Jesus said, render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. We don't need a government to force people to believe the right things.

I'll bet that the Kos Kidz are reading this and are now laughing themselves sick. Please Charles, please Pam, you guys agree 99.9% of the time. This is most probably just a big misunderstanding. I hope that you both can clear it up soon.

BHG

{Poitiers Lepanto}

and

#241 Cry of defiance and not of fear

excellent post.

A song for the thread

WLGF out

re: #235 Fjordman

It's people such as Filip Dewinter. He's stated that his party is simply a continuation of the Flemish National Movement...(the one headed up by the nazi collaborator de Clercq -- de Clercq who's known to have stated: ""There is only one solution: Purification of our people, total and complete disconnection of the Jew from the peoples body.")

Why close ranks with these sort? I don't get it. why didn't the Conference organizers say, "no"? Would it have been that disastrous?

#252 bald headed geek

Charles HAS extended the Olive Branch.

Reconciliation needs to be a 2-way street.

The ball in in Pam's court. I hope it gets worked out.

re: #249 Highrise

I agree with you. I cannot even pretend to understand what possessed her to do what she did.

If she does apologize? I would be surprised. I hope she at leasts contacts Charles.

re: #232 Fjordman

No, Europe isn't different, Europe is being treated differently. [Emphasis original. --ZY]

I think it's half and half of both. Europe is different--from the USA, for example, but probably not from Japan. Europe is being treated differently--you would never hear the Left castigate Japan if it pondered immigration quotas. Because the Left--and I think we can all agree about that--are "reverse" racists, anti-white racists mirroring the ones at Stormfront.

The conflict has been totally dichotomized concerning Europe. It seems these days you're either an anti-white racist or a white "racial preservationist". The Left is doing their darnedest to dichotomize the conflict in the USA and Israel too, but the fact that those are melting-pot countries means they're nowhere near as successful in that. The closest they can get is by casting the Minutemen (activists for strict US border controls) as "white racists", and spinning the libel that "even Jews, if they are non-white, are second-class to the European Jews". But they are trying to create a dichotomy where there is really none--artificially.

I'm shaken by the way my formerly global view of the War Against Islam has taken a pounding. Let me try to draw a few common, undisputed arguments:

1) Islam is a mortal threat to all non-Muslim host states.

2) National sovereignty should be defended from the encroachment of superstates.

3) The governments are no longer in any synchrony with the people they are supposed to represent.

4) Uncontrolled immigration is disastrous and should be done away with.

To contrast, the disagreements:

1) The role of race in shaping human cultural differences.

2) The idea that each culture fits its race of origin best.

The first disagreement is where the European anti-Islamists get sidetracked with arguing that blacks have a lower average IQ than whites. Leaving aside the fact that this is just a sophisticated way of saying, "N*****s are stoopid", this focus means the resistance to Islamization is only a part, and not a very big one either, of Europe's current struggle. But I maintain that the Hindus and Sikhs of Britain are in no way comparable to the Muslims. They can be spoiled by PC to feel entitlement, but they're not inherently condition to that feeling; the Muslims, in contrast, enter every non-Muslim state with an overpowering feeling of lordship.

The second disagreement is self-destructive: If culture is derived from race, and every culture fits its race best, then certain cultural customs (such as the African one of female genital mutilation) are, by dint of logic, the best ones for the races that practice them. In effect, racialists and multiculturalists differ only in that the former want those who practice FGM out of their countries, while the latter insist on their right to be there. The acceptability of FGM isn't up to debate by either of them.

That's just a start for the discussion.

re: #255 BulgarWheat

I absolutely agree with you, and am hopeful that this will be exactly what happens.

BHG

Charles, Just seeing this ........... I was not attacking you.

I hold you in the highest regard (my blog is validation of that) which is why I thought your knee jerk reaction to a summit so important was unfair and destructive.

Who better than you (and all of us waging this battle) know the damage slurs and innuendo cause?

I stand by that summit, the participants and its mission. If I am wrong I will say so. I have the utmost respect for you, but on this matter I disagree.

Robert Spencer addresses the accusations here, CAIR HITS A NEW LOW IN DEFAMATION. and
Paul Belien of the Brussels Journal sent Spencer this information:

It is simply not true that "Vlaams Belang's founders were Nazi collaborators in WW II."

Vlaams Belang founder Filip Dewinter was born in 1962 in a family that cannot be accused of Nazi sympathies. His father and uncle were members of the anti-German Resistance. Vlaams Belang was founded in 2004, sixty years after the end of WW II.

The Vlaams Blok, predecessor to the Vlaams Belang, was founded in 1977 by Karel Dillen (1925-2007). Mr Dillen came from a non-political background. His father, an Antwerp labourer, abandoned his wife and their two sons when when Dillen was still a baby. He was raised by his mother. Neither he, nor his brother nor his mother were involved in any political activities at all during the war, let alone that they belonged to pro-Nazi and collaborationist groups.

re: #227 Cap'n DOC

re: #218 allahakchew

LOL. I also just remembered - My first question was rather a statement, whereby I suggested that rather than call their statement of beliefs a Manifesto, that they really ought to consider something a little less harsh - like Mission Statement. I guess they didn't like the idea that I'd ripped their thesis off of the pseudo-mosque door.

...lol...

re: #242 Lauraf

It does. Moderates are moderates in name only. There is really no such thing as a moderate mohammedan. A mohammedan either accepts the words of allah in the koran as inimitable (i'jaz), or if they do not accept them they are not mohammedans. Simple, really. Moderates will tell you that allah cannot contradict himself, but point out the contradictions in the koran and you become the target of their seething for pointing out the contradictions.

#259 ATLASSHRUGGED

Now, this is a discussion. I'm glad to see it too! Our common enemy would like nothing better than to see a fissure in our collective resolve.

This can be reconciled. I am starting to feel much more optimistic in seeing this carried forward.

I'm sure that the 2 of you can work this out in what ever way works for both of you.

re: #245 David Simon

Thanks...there is a part of me that still cannot believe that this happened.

Why she decided to sling mud, laced with venom, at Charles? Not a clue.

As I said, if she doesn't want to post her defence of what she did, then at least she should be both adult enough and decent enough to contact Charles in private. He didn't initiate or invite this.

She made her bed....

#259 ATLAS

Putting the flying pigs on your blog and right up at the top using the word "aligned" to describe some imagined connection between Charles and CAIR shows very bad judgment IMO. It's distressing to a lot of us here as you can probably see by some of the comments.

I am fully certain Charles comes from a 180-degree different angle on this whole matter than CAIR does.

Everyone in Europe has a checkered past, as pam points out. If my grandfather was in a Panzer during WWII (you had to be a Nazi Party member to be in the Panzer Divisions), does that mean that when I speak the focus should be on him/my family "dirty secrets"?

re: #265 Spartacus

So those of us who lost our relatives in the ovens also had a 'checkered past'?

FOAD.

re: #259 ATLASSHRUGGED

I hold you in the highest regard (my blog is validation of that) which is why I thought your knee jerk reaction to a summit so important was unfair and destructive.

It was anything but a "knee jerk reaction." I considered very carefully whether or not to post what I did, and realized I would probably be attacked for doing so. And I tried to be completely fair, giving links to the source so people could read for themselves.

And yes, I do think it's an attack to say (as you did) that I'm "aligned with CAIR."

I have a different opinion on a subject of enormous import. So now I can't disagree?

Give me a break.

I never said Charles was in bed with CAIR. I said they got their talking points from his post.

This oughtabe interesting. I'll put money on who shrugs first.

re: #268 ATLASSHRUGGED