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About Vlaams Belang and Sweden Democrats

Wed, Oct 24, 2007 at 11:59:48 am PDT

Here are just a few of the reasons I have deep misgivings about the Belgian Vlaams Belang party, successor to the banned Vlaams Blok, and their participation in the European anti-Islamization movement; thanks to LGF readers for pointing out these links.

Exhibit 1: in 2005, Vlaams Belang MPs shunned a resolution condemning the Nazi death camps.

BRUSSELS – The three members of the European Parliament from Belgium’s extreme right Vlaams Belang party abstained from Thursday’s vote commemorating the 60th anniversary of the liberation of the Auschwitz concentration camp in Poland.

The EU’s legislative body adopted a resolution condemning the concentration and extermination camps built by the Nazis as “among the most shameful and painful pages of the history of our continent.”

It goes on to express concern about Jews in Europe experiencing a “heightened sense of security” due to anti-Semitism and calls for recognising the Holocaust formally across Europe every day on 27 January, the anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz. The resolution was adopted by 617 votes to 0 with 10 abstentions, including the trio of Vlaams Belang deputies.

Frank Vanhecke, the party’s president, said he feared that the resolution would be used against parties who “fight for European values and European peoples,” Belgian newspaper La Derniere Heure reported.

Exhibit 2: a White Power flag at a Vlaams Belang rally this month. The other flags are Flemish nationalist flags, and the one partly visible behind the White Power flag is typically used by Vlaams Belang.

Exhibit 3: As mentioned above, the predecessor to Vlaams Belang, Vlaams Blok, was outlawed in 2004. Their comeback as Vlaams Belang was applauded in 2005 by David Duke and the neo-Nazi skinheads at Stormfront. (The link goes to a Google redirect page, not directly to the Stormfront hate hole. If you search Stormfront for “Vlaams Belang,” you’ll find articles and videos by the dozen.)

Exhibit 4: we don’t only find support for Vlaams Belang at Stormfront. Here’s a post at the “Pan Aryan National Front,” with links to many VB videos. (Also goes to a Google redirect page.)

Please note: There’s a lot more of this kind of stuff out there.

As for the other party I identified as problematic for the anti-jihad movement in this post, Sverigedemokraterna (Sweden Democrats), the web site expo.se has a gallery of photos of their links to neo-Nazis, including this image from 1996:

Here’s a translation of the caption, from LGF reader “Truumax:”

“Tina Hallgren Bengtsson, member of city council for the Sweden Democrats in the city of Hoor, in full nazi regalia. During this time it was still common for people to attend in uniform during Sweden Democrat gatherings. New party leader Mikael Jansson grew tired and banned the use of uniforms. The following message was to be read in the Sweden Democrats internal news bulletin: ‘The Sweden Democrats have gotten a bad reputation on account of certain ‘Hollywood nazis’ and other people in uniform-like apparel joining the Engelbrekt march. [...] People of such weak conviction that they feel the need to dress in this manner and thus ridiculing the party are advised to stay at home.’ Out of caution, this message was repeated in the internal bulletin for several years.”

If you research these groups, it’s impossible to miss these disturbing connections.

LGF is as anti-jihad as anyone on the web; but I do not accept that we’ve reached the point where we should embrace these kinds of people as allies, simply because they’re hitching a ride on the bandwagon and saying the right things when the spotlight is on them.

I’m in this fight because I believe in personal freedom and liberty, and these links and photographs raise more than warning signs to me. They raise the hairs on the back of my neck.

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1 JamesTKirk  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:01:53pm

What the heil?

2 Lucius Septimius  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:02:38pm

Dadgummit, this comes up just as I have to leave.

Charles: Thank you for posting this.

3 The Other Les  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:02:56pm

I had friend go off and join the National Alliance.

We're not friends anymore.

4 looking closely  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:02:58pm

The (Neo)-Nazis and the Islamists are cut from the same cloth anyway.

We don't need either of them.

5 Rogue198  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:03:48pm

Damn Right Charles!

We're not the Left, "Enemy of my Enemy is my friend" is true in some cases (Saudi Arabia, Pakistan) but more often then not it means you're sharing a bed with something slimy and stinky.

6 Ben Hur  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:04:17pm

Great.

Another flem clearing thread.

Will Pamela respond?

7 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:05:12pm
I’m in this fight because I believe in personal freedom and liberty, and these links and photographs raise more than warning signs to me. They raise the hairs on the back of my neck.

Good for you! I find it troubling that there are those who feel the need to support these groups. European politics is complicated and strange but it's clear that they're Nazis. NEVER AGAIN!

8 purplemonkeydishwasher  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:05:16pm

God Bless America, you putzy schnauzers!

9 debutaunt  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:05:18pm

It's crucial to open this stuff up to the light so we are sure who is on which side.

10 bulwrk  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:05:40pm

The Sweden Democrats have gotten a bad reputation on account of certain ”Hollywood nazis“


sean penn?

11 Defeater of Defeatism  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:06:06pm

"Dutch Vlaams Belang party"? Dutch-speaking perhaps. They're Belgian, or more specifically, Flemish. But Dutch, not so much.

Will add additional thoughts later on (being a Dutch citizen residing in Belgium and all).

12 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:06:54pm

Well, having read this and Pamela "Atlas" Geller's side of the story, I'm just more confused than ever.

13 Charles  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:07:46pm

re: #11 Defeater of Defeatism

"Dutch Vlaams Belang party"? Dutch-speaking perhaps. They're Belgian, or more specifically, Flemish. But Dutch, not so much.

Will add additional thoughts later on (being a Dutch citizen residing in Belgium and all).

Thanks. Typo corrected.

14 Dekar  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:07:58pm

Democratic and Republican parties and their equivalents in other countries always have a certain stigma. If only there was a "Good Common Sense party"... which I believe at this time fairs slightly to the Conservative side... although not 100% as I want it to be.

15 MrAndMrsSmith  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:08:14pm

Charles,

Likewise, we concur that just because they call themselves our "allies," doesn't mean that there aren't some serious problems with those people. After all, the WH keeps claiming that the Saudis are our friends despiute the evidence showing that they support Wahhabist beliefs and Islamicist rhetoric.

If the Swedish Democrats really do embrace Nazi ideology (as it appears to do), then can we seriously trust these people? After all, the Islamofascists don't simply want us dead, but they want Israel gone, as well. Must we need constant reminders that there are those that still hate the Jews, and that they'll ally themselves with whomever shares that ideology? Does no one remember al-Husayni, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem who collaborated with the Nazis to hunt down Jews that had fled Germany?

16 Yank in the EU  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:08:16pm

In this article Dewinter elucidates that his party's roots are in the Flemish Nazi Collaborators, as well as support for Haider, Le Pen and the NPD, which are all worse than those photographs. [Link: www.filipdewinter.be...]

Still there are some respected and decent people in the Vlaams Belang, especially Paul Belien and Alexandra Colen, his wife. They insist that Dewinter and the VB have dramatically changed their positions from the 1990s, are not racist, and are concerned mainly with saving their civilization from Islamism. For now, my stance is to continue to support their fight, but to be very circumspect with joining ranks with Dewinter.

17 debutaunt  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:08:29pm

re: #12 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet
#12 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet 10/24/07 12:06:54 pm reply quote report 0

Well, having read this and Pamela "Atlas" Geller's side of the story, I'm just more confused than ever.

I couldn't agree more. Contradictions abound and more information is need to figure it all out.

18 hayseed  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:08:46pm

Charles some of the white power groups hate Islam and some embrace the fact that some Muslims hate Jews and want to partner with them.

19 QueeQueeg  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:08:58pm

Nice one Charles, those people are opportunist totalitarian asshats just like the BNP. Keep them the hell away from the mainstream anti jihad movement.

Not that it will stop your enemies calling you a Nazi. But hey, they do that to anybody right of John Edwards.

20 The Other Les  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:09:01pm

re: #10 bulwrk

The Sweden Democrats have gotten a bad reputation on account of certain ”Hollywood nazis“


sean penn?

This may be an urban legend but during WWII some Swedish politician supposedly said that "if the Germans win, we're Aryans, if the Allies win, we're Democrats."

21 MandyManners  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:09:56pm

I feel dirty just reading and looking at that nasty shit.

22 ted  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:10:11pm

Very Damning...I have to agree Charles...This seems like nothing more than a group of Neo-Nazis trying to co-opt the Anti-Islamists.

23 Ben Hur  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:10:53pm

I'm surprised these groups don't embrace Islamofascism.

It would give legitimacy and cover to their hatred.

They'd be promoted disporportionately promoted in society, not banned like they are now.

24 Ben Hur  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:11:20pm

Can I say promoted any more times?

Promoted.

Apparently, yes.

25 MandyManners  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:12:06pm

I'm reminded of the Marine I dated in college. His father's family was Flemish and his grandfather was Nazi before Nazi was cool. His mother's family was Waloon, and were partisans.

26 MrAndMrsSmith  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:12:12pm

Re: #21 Mandy Manners

Some people in this world take the words "Never Again" to heart, and do their best to remember the evils of the past so we never do see them happen again.

Others pay the term lip service in an effort to show people their faux compassion, and then ignore the lessons of history.

You sound like the wife and I, who put ourselves firmly in the former rather than the latter. We should remember these lessons so this sort of abhorrant and detestable behavior never occurs again.

27 Capt_Faust  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:12:15pm

"Illinois Nazis...

I Hate Illinois Nazis..."

28 Dead Sea Squirrel  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:13:05pm

There are people who hate democratic, liberal, Western civilization just as much as the Islamists do. They see the looming showdown as their chance to remake the world in their image, and they will certainly try to pose as our allies. There are times and places for making wary alliances with people almost as bad as the enemy (FDR and Churchill &#9829 Stalin), but not if the cost is destroying the thing you are trying to save.

He who would dine with the Devil had better use a very long spoon.

29 Rednek  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:13:15pm

Yes. Don't embrace Fascism-Fascism just because they oppose Islamo-Fascism.

30 The Other Les  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:13:17pm

re: #22 ted

Very Damning...I have to agree Charles...This seems like nothing more than a group of Neo-Nazis trying to co-opt the Anti-Islamists.

I'm sorry to say that the Neo-Nazis made a major effort to co-opt the patriot militias that popped up during the Clinton Administration.

That's where I lost a friend.

31 waveslidin  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:13:21pm

I've said it before and I will say it again, thank you Charles! Thank you for what you believe in and how you stand for it. What a voice of reason in such a crazy world.

32 uptight  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:13:26pm

European Nazis are anti-Islam simply because they think they can use this as a populist rallying cry.

American Nazis (like Duke) are pro-Islam because they see a common ally in their paranoid hatred of the Jews.

If there were more Jews in Europe, Vlaams would probably be allied to to Islamism.

33 Pawn of the Oppressor  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:13:38pm

I hate Illinois Belgian Nazis.

Somebody needs to tell these asshats that the uniforms only looked good on crowds of soldiers. When you stand there like an idiot alone in front of a Nazi flag, you just look like Jane Fonda.

34 debutaunt  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:13:51pm

#24 Ben Hur 10/24/07 12:11:20 pm reply quote report 0

Can I say promoted any more times?

Promoted.

Apparently, yes.


But not banned like they are now... re: #24 Ben Hur

35 Bill K.  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:14:55pm

I thought the Nazis and the Arabs/Islamists were and still are natural allies because of their hatred of the Jews.

That anyone would propose an alliance with the neo-Nazis, for any reason whatsoever, is off their fucking rocker.

36 Gordon Marock  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:14:56pm

Well said, Charles. This is what separates people of principle from dissemblers who cannot bring themselves to criticize an extremist simply because they are a fellow Muslim. Granted, some refuse to criticize out of fear for their personal safety, but many refuse because they sympathize with the extremist viewpoint.

37 ted  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:15:03pm

OT:
Cndi doesn't notice the 500 pound pile of elephant dung in the room.

Rice: Mideast peace in jeopardy

By ANNE FLAHERTY, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 1 minute ago

WASHINGTON - Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said Wednesday that a "two-state solution" in the Middle East was in jeopardy and described a narrow window of opportunity to push Israel and the Palestinians toward peace.

In a House hearing interrupted by anti-war protesters, Rice said an upcoming peace conference in Annapolis, Md., is needed to give hope to moderate Palestinian forces. She blamed Iran for fanning flames in the region, including what she called "troubling" new support for Hamas militants.

"Our concern is growing that without a serious political prospect for the Palestinians that gives to moderate leaders a horizon that they can show to their people that indeed there is a two-state solution that is possible, we will lose the window for a two-state solution," Rice said.

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

38 mama winger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:15:45pm
I’m in this fight because I believe in personal freedom and liberty, and these links and photographs raise more than warning signs to me. They raise the hairs on the back of my neck.

Good on ya, Charles. I wouldn't trust half the stuff I see coming out of Sweden. I'm sorry but the history of that country is abhorrent.

39 Ben Hur  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:15:46pm

re: #34 debutaunt

Correct, they are not banned, but our society has made it clear that they are not to be accepted.

40 The Other Les  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:15:59pm

re: #27 Capt_Faust

"Illinois Nazis...

I Hate Illinois Nazis..."

Yes. Got the reference.

Of course there's one thing I despise more than an Illinois Nazi...

41 Gordon Marock  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:16:03pm

By the way, I hate Islamic Nazis just as much as I hate Illinois Nazis.

42 Dr. Shalit  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:16:20pm

Charles -

This IS a tough one, much like allying with Stalin in WWII. It is good to know this as things progress. Question is - where are the "Good Guy Good Guys?"

-S-

43 Ghengis Khan  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:16:22pm

We are always stuck trying to balance delicately in the middle. It seems too easy to go overboard in either direction, abandoning all reason for madness.

44 Know Your Enemy  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:16:25pm

What's a "Hollywood Nazi?"

Is it an idiot just acting like or pretending to be a Nazi, or does he mean a Nazi from Hollywood?

I don't get it.

45 Truumax  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:16:47pm

Hey Charles, I was the one who translated that article.

46 macoishin  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:17:02pm

Great post Charles. Mark Steyn took a fair amount of abuse last year for predicting, in "America Alone", that Europe's predeliction for bloodshed would re-emerge as unsavory parties form the vanguard of an anti-jihad movement. Specifically he cited Serbian atrocities such as the Srebenica massacre as an example of what the continental far-right would do when it finally responded to the growth of Eurabia.
His detractors on the Left naturally thought that he approved of violence and bloodshed in the name of his political cause, because that is exactly how they think. It is important to say, as he did then and as you are now, that we oppose creeping sharia and the obliteration of Western culture, but we also oppose violence and white supremacy.

47 ibrodsky  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:17:51pm

re: #28 Dead Sea Squirrel

There are people who hate democratic, liberal, Western civilization just as much as the Islamists do. They see the looming showdown as their chance to remake the world in their image, and they will certainly try to pose as our allies. There are times and places for making wary alliances with people almost as bad as the enemy (FDR and Churchill %u2665 Stalin), but not if the cost is destroying the thing you are trying to save.

He who would dine with the Devil had better use a very long spoon.

Well said.

48 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:17:58pm

After seeing this evidence, I am extremely disappointed that the "LGF and CAIR" thread is still up over at Pamela's blog. It is totally counterproductive to our cause to have any association with groups that have neo-Nazi backgrounds or ties.

49 Gordon Marock  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:18:14pm

re: #44 Know Your Enemy

What's a "Hollywood Nazi?"

Is it an idiot just acting like or pretending to be a Nazi, or does he mean a Nazi from Hollywood?

I don't get it.

I think he means people who are willing to dress up as a stromtrooper for show, but wimp out when it is time to deface some Jewish cemetaries.

50 J.S.  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:18:40pm

Exactly right, Charles. Why trade one form of fascism for another?

51 MandyManners  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:18:42pm

re: #26 MrAndMrsSmith

Re: #21 Mandy Manners

Some people in this world take the words "Never Again" to heart, and do their best to remember the evils of the past so we never do see them happen again.

Others pay the term lip service in an effort to show people their faux compassion, and then ignore the lessons of history.

You sound like the wife and I, who put ourselves firmly in the former rather than the latter. We should remember these lessons so this sort of abhorrant and detestable behavior never occurs again.

I'm passing on what I know and learn to The Kid.

52 ted  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:18:43pm

re: #30 The Other Les

How true,

Losing our Lib and Dem friends is the price many of us Lizards pay for our honesty, truth and clarity.

I've lost several too.

53 Spenser (with an S)  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:18:51pm

re: #42 Dr. Shalit

Question is - where are the "Good Guy Good Guys?

We're all right here!

54 Ringo the Gringo  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:18:53pm

As I said today in an earlier post : For an anti-jihad movement to catch on in Europe it must include people from the groups that would be most threatened: religious Christians, Jews, homosexuals, artists, atheists, Muslim apostates, advocates of womens rights and non-Muslim immigrants who appreciate Western values.

A coalition such as this would not be attractive to any group that is truly racist even if they do share some common goals.

Also, a broad coalition would be hard for the Left (though they will try) to dismiss as simply rightwing racists

55 Thanos  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:19:26pm

Thanks Charles, this is the right thing to do.

also if folks surf the end of the "when friends attack" thread yesterday, about the last 300 comments are very educational.

56 Ben Hur  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:19:27pm

The fact the KOS and Stormfront hate us means we're right where we need to be.

57 ted  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:19:32pm

re: #38 mama winger

I’m in this fight because I believe in personal freedom and liberty, and these links and photographs raise more than warning signs to me. They raise the hairs on the back of my neck.

Good on ya, Charles. I wouldn't trust half the stuff I see coming out of Sweden. I'm sorry but the history of that country is abhorrent.

Exactly true.

58 Occasional Reader  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:19:33pm
Their comeback as Vlaams Belang was applauded in 2005 by David Duke and the neo-Nazi skinheads at Stormfront.

Well, those same people also applauded Cindy Sheehan. Therefore, Vlaams Belang must be "progressive".

/need I?

This is a perfect demonstration of the political suicide phenomenon in much of Western Europe. When any reasonable questions about immigration are banished from "respectable" political debate, they simply get pushed to the fringe-right parties, and give strength to these creeps.

59 Elmira Viking  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:19:47pm

LGF is as anti-jihad as anyone on the web; but I do not accept that we’ve reached the point where we should accept these kinds of people as allies, simply because they’re hitching a ride on the bandwagon and saying the right things when the spotlight is on them.

Right on, man ! Well said.

60 Know Your Enemy  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:20:30pm

re: #49 Gordon Marock

re: #44 Know Your Enemy


What's a "Hollywood Nazi?"

Is it an idiot just acting like or pretending to be a Nazi, or does he mean a Nazi from Hollywood?

I don't get it.


I think he means people who are willing to dress up as a stromtrooper for show, but wimp out when it is time to deface some Jewish cemetaries.

So they're looking for more committed Nazis?

61 MandyManners  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:20:43pm

re: #32 uptight

European Nazis are anti-Islam simply because they think they can use this as a populist rallying cry.

American Nazis (like Duke) are pro-Islam because they see a common ally in their paranoid hatred of the Jews.

If there were more Jews in Europe, Vlaams would probably be allied to to Islamism.

I guarantee you that they back the Jordyptians.

62 MrAndMrsSmith  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:21:11pm

Re: #42 Dr. Shalit

We can debate whether we "needed" Stalin in World War II to help defeat Germany, but the fact remains that Hitler made that possible only because he turned on Stalin, and invaded Russia. By default, Stalin came to the Allies side.

The problem with Stalin came at Yalta where Europe was basically carved up by the Allies.

If we are to have such alliances, then it's best we keep a close eye on those nations who pay us virtual lip service -- like Saudi Arabia -- as they continue to undermine us with their "clandestine" activities. Not that we don't know what the Saudis are doing, and not as though we don't know what these supposed "democrats" in Sweden stand for.

63 The Other Les  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:21:27pm

re: #54 Ringo the Gringo

Also, a broad coalition would be hard for the Left (though they will try) to dismiss as simply rightwing racists


Wouldn't stop them at all.

Anyone who still believes in the Gospel According to Marx will believe anything.

64 Charles  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:21:27pm

re: #45 Truumax

Hey Charles, I was the one who translated that article.

Sorry, looked at the wrong comment. You have the credit now.

65 MandyManners  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:21:30pm

re: #33 Pawn of the Oppressor

I hate Illinois Belgian Nazis.

Somebody needs to tell these asshats that the uniforms only looked good on crowds of soldiers. When you stand there like an idiot alone in front of a Nazi flag, you just look like Jane Fonda.

Do these stormtrooper pants make my butt look big?

66 QueeQueeg  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:21:40pm

re: #32 uptight

European Nazis are anti-Islam simply because they think they can use this as a populist rallying cry.

Spot on, this is exactly what the BNP have done in the UK. They now pretend not to be raving antisemites with a fetish for jackboots and switched from using the word 'Paki' to anti Islamic rhetoric.

67 Gordon Marock  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:22:44pm

re: #60 Know Your Enemy
Hard to say. The translated statement contains some doublespeak.

68 Ghengis Khan  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:23:00pm

Why would anyone want to join an ideology that got thoroughly trounced by the allies in WW2? We beat the snot out of the Nazi's. What power is even there to be attractive anymore? I mean I can kind of understand when they were rising in power, they felt like they could take on the world. But now all they can do is paint things on walls and shoot a few people... People are messed up...

69 Thor-Zone  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:23:04pm

Charles said in the post....

I’m in this fight because I believe in personal freedom and liberty, and these links and photographs raise more than warning signs to me. They raise the hairs on the back of my neck.

I am right there with you Charles, and I totally agree that we do not need people like these as allies. This is the same mistake the nutroot left makes every day.

Our opposition seem to support and endless parade of assclowns that actually want to do harm the the us. They go with the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" thing a little too much. I for one am very happy that we do not seem to be going down that road.

70 The Other Les  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:23:07pm

re: #65 MandyManners

re: #33 Pawn of the Oppressor

I hate Illinois Belgian Nazis.

Somebody needs to tell these asshats that the uniforms only looked good on crowds of soldiers. When you stand there like an idiot alone in front of a Nazi flag, you just look like Jane Fonda.

Do these stormtrooper pants make my butt look big?

Yes!

71 MrAndMrsSmith  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:23:31pm

Re: #51 Mandy Manners

That is the ONLY way we can try to prevent a repeat of history; to let future generatiuons know the eviul that has come, and gone, and will hopefully remained buried in the compost heap of history where it belongs.

72 Spenser (with an S)  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:23:44pm

re: #17 debutaunt

more information is need to figure it all out

.

Is it? I am not being snide at all and I respect you and Ed, but since this was started by something Pamela didn't like, and we now can see the exact posting by Charles that she didn't like and make up our minds, what information could be missing? Other than an explanation of why she jumped down his throat like she did.

73 Truumax  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:23:45pm

re: #60 Know Your Enemy

Back in 1996, the Sweden Democrats were nothing more than a loony fringe party here in Sweden, and back then they made no effort to hide their real intentions. They were an openly racist party, affiliated with several other neo-nazi organisations.

This is a part of their past that must not be forgotten, because some of those people are still there in the party. Remember, this image is only from ten years ago.

74 MandyManners  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:23:52pm

re: #27 Capt_Faust

"Illinois Nazis...

I Hate Illinois Nazis..."

From my research years ago, at the time that they wanted to march in Skokie, 27 per cent of the population were Holocaust survivors.

75 ZionistYoungster  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:24:33pm

Leftists, "Progressives" feel they can ally themselves with Hamas and Hizbullah without any qualms, on account of Machiavellian convenience. I think we are not like them.

Rule of thumb for me: Anyone who thinks blacks are inferior to whites is X'ed off my list of allies.

76 jcm  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:24:37pm

When you abandon reason to irrational hated, you can no longer think straight. It get hard to distinguish friend from foe. He might be my friend but he is..... even though there may be much in common because he is...... I can't work with him. Hatred blinds one to the larger, more important realities.

However when you adhere to core principles; LIFE, LIBERTY, PROPERTY, it is very easy to determine friends. Do they stand for the core principles? Who give a rip about the rest?

77 Diamond Bullet  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:24:41pm
I’m in this fight because I believe in personal freedom and liberty, and these links and photographs raise more than warning signs to me. They raise the hairs on the back of my neck.

Bingo.

78 coquimbojoe  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:24:43pm

The fascist ideology is what we are fighting against. We should not embrace other fascists just because they agree with us in some areas. Fascism is abhorrent, where ever it comes from.

The left loves to embrace any fellow traveler, we cannot afford that kind of luxury/stupidity.

79 Gordon Marock  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:25:36pm

re: #68 Ghengis Khan

Why would anyone want to join an ideology that got thoroughly trounced by the allies in WW2? We beat the snot out of the Nazi's. What power is even there to be attractive anymore? I mean I can kind of understand when they were rising in power, they felt like they could take on the world. But now all they can do is paint things on walls and shoot a few people... People are messed up...

The same reason for joining any failed ideology. If you are a loser and can't think for yourself and can't win friends, it is very attractive to join a group that will call you a brother as long as you parrot a few slogans.

80 TalkinKamel  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:25:46pm

#78 coquimbojoe

You are absolutely right---we can't.

81 Ghengis Khan  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:26:28pm

re: #79 Gordon Marock

I suppose, that's the only problem with having a brain, it's really hard to understand people who don't.

82 Know Your Enemy  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:26:43pm

re: #73 Truumax

I'm all for ethnic pride, but...

83 MandyManners  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:27:09pm

re: #70 The Other Les

re: #65 MandyManners


re: #33 Pawn of the Oppressor

I hate Illinois Belgian Nazis.

Somebody needs to tell these asshats that the uniforms only looked good on crowds of soldiers. When you stand there like an idiot alone in front of a Nazi flag, you just look like Jane Fonda.


Do these stormtrooper pants make my butt look big?

Yes!

[runs crying into the bunker]

84 lawhawk  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:27:09pm

A little due diligence goes a long way.

85 Truumax  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:27:34pm

re: #67 Gordon Marock

Make no mistake about it, that comment was meant as an insult to the silly people who played dress-up. Not because of the nazi sympathies, rather that they weren't percieved as "serious" enough.

86 Thanos  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:27:45pm

Understand that Charles is taking a very large stand with this post. There are others out there in Blog land on the right who are saying we should forgive the past etc.

Support your lizard master, he might need it.

87 mama winger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:27:51pm

re: #68 Ghengis Khan

People are messed up...

Yup. But we're going to change that.

88 MandyManners  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:27:52pm

re: #71 MrAndMrsSmith

Re: #51 Mandy Manners

That is the ONLY way we can try to prevent a repeat of history; to let future generatiuons know the eviul that has come, and gone, and will hopefully remained buried in the compost heap of history where it belongs.

I wish it would remain buried but, evil has a way of popping up again.

89 BrianA  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:28:02pm

re: #56 Ben Hur

The fact the KOS and Stormfront hate us means we're right where we need to be.

True enough for us Americans. For the Euros, there seems to be very little room left in the middle. Its a loose-loose situation.

90 Ghengis Khan  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:28:04pm

Are there any history theorists or WW2 buffs out there? Would we have been able to handle the war without the aid of the USSR?
I'm not saying anything by this, I am just curious what people who study it think.

91 Thanos  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:28:04pm

I have to get back to my call now :(

92 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:28:05pm

Although I'm still a little concerned about the backlash from other Anti-jihad bloggers that this post will cause I'm thrilled with the almost universal denunciation of these extremist groups here on LGF.

93 jayzee  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:28:10pm

Amen Charles. I can't help but notice the irony however that here in the US, the Nazis have aligned themselves increasingly with the loony left troofers and the Islamists. Guess our home grown Nazis view Jews as more of an immediate threat than their buddies in Europe do. Like the French, they'll take their allies where they can find them.

94 Boondock St. Bender  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:28:12pm

Once again Charles does us all proud by pointing out that the enemy of my enemy is not nessesarily my friend.(I'm sure though that the ass-hats who call us facsists won't be changing their favorite mantra anytime soon)

95 debutaunt  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:28:59pm

re: #72 Spenser (with an S)
#72 Spenser (with an S) 10/24/07 12:23:44 pm reply quote report 0

re: #17 debutaunt

more information is need to figure it all out

.

Is it? I am not being snide at all and I respect you and Ed, but since this was started by something Pamela didn't like, and we now can see the exact posting by Charles that she didn't like and make up our minds, what information could be missing? Other than an explanation of why she jumped down his throat like she did.

I can't understand why she went off like that. It makes no sense to someone who reads different blogs in an attempt to see different viewpoints. She and Charles have had such similar attitudes about who the enemy is and this is so far off the mark I'm completely bewildered by her actions.

96 JammieWearingFool  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:29:04pm

Definitely don't want to be associated with these creeps.

97 Boondock St. Bender  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:29:16pm

re: #83 MandyManners

Ummmm...whats wrong with a big butt?(better than no butt at all)

98 Yank in the EU  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:29:25pm

re: #84 lawhawk

A little due diligence goes a long way.

Amen to that. This is a clear, well done post.

99 The Other Les  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:29:32pm

re: #83 MandyManners

re: #70 The Other Les

re: #65 MandyManners


re: #33 Pawn of the Oppressor


I hate Illinois Belgian Nazis.Somebody needs to tell these asshats that the uniforms only looked good on crowds of soldiers. When you stand there like an idiot alone in front of a Nazi flag, you just look like Jane Fonda.


Do these stormtrooper pants make my butt look big?


Yes!

[runs crying into the bunker]

[grins]

100 Know Your Enemy  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:29:55pm

re: #97 Boondock St. Bender

re: #83 MandyManners

Ummmm...whats wrong with a big butt?(better than no butt at all)

Moderation is always best.

101 ibrodsky  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:30:05pm

I hate when causes such as ours suffer splits, but I fear that is about to happen.

102 MrAndMrsSmith  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:30:15pm

Re: #79 Gordon

The same reason for joining any failed ideology. If you are a loser and can't think for yourself and can't win friends, it is very attractive to join a group that will call you a brother as long as you parrot a few slogans.

Nicely put, and it is precisely the sort of mindset that the Nazis used to exploit the weak-minded. I recall what I read about the Nazi Youth, and how they preached and peddled inclusion in a greater cause than one's self; what it meant to belong to something other than what the Nazi's deemed as petty self-interests. Yet, what was it that Hitler promoted? His OWN petty self-interests. And in the name of what? His own ideological beliefs and prejudice against the Jews, and against those he believed had wronged Germany.

We could go rounds on whether or not the Treaty of Versailles was unfair, and whether it led directly to the root causes of World War II, but in the end, it was one man who exploited the people of his nation for the goal of world domination and the extermination of one people.

103 Ezekiel2517  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:30:18pm

I know I've said that a broken clock is right twice a day, but I strongly agree with others here who have pointed out that we don't need to ally ourselves with the likes of these people in order to win the fight against Islamo-Fascism.

104 Occasional Reader  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:30:57pm

re: #73 Truumax

Back in 1996, the Sweden Democrats were nothing more than a loony fringe party here in Sweden, and back then they made no effort to hide their real intentions.

It's bizarre to me that a neo-nazi group managed to grab the innocuous name of "Sweden Democrats". Especially considering the Nazis' visceral hatred of democracy. What do you think they were attempting to do by adopting this name?

105 MandyManners  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:31:22pm

re: #97 Boondock St. Bender

re: #83 MandyManners

Ummmm...whats wrong with a big butt?(better than no butt at all)

*sniff...sniff...You just don't get it. He SAID I have a big butt. It doesn't matter if it *is* big. He SAID it.*

106 Ghengis Khan  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:31:37pm

re: #104 Occasional Reader

piss off democrats

107 MandyManners  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:32:23pm

re: #99 The Other Les

[kicks Les in the shins]

108 Know Your Enemy  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:32:29pm

re: #79 Gordon Marock

re: #68 Ghengis Khan


Why would anyone want to join an ideology that got thoroughly trounced by the allies in WW2? We beat the snot out of the Nazi's. What power is even there to be attractive anymore? I mean I can kind of understand when they were rising in power, they felt like they could take on the world. But now all they can do is paint things on walls and shoot a few people... People are messed up...

The same reason for joining any failed ideology. If you are a loser and can't think for yourself and can't win friends, it is very attractive to join a group that will call you a brother as long as you parrot a few slogans.

Someone's been reading the recruiting playbook for the Nation of Islam.

109 mama winger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:32:33pm

We have to teach our young people the lessons of history so they do not succumb to these evil teachings that seem to get recycled periodically, or that never were really dead to begin with. Teach your children.

110 uptight  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:32:41pm

Sadly in Europe the Nationalist groups are the only ones making a stand against Islamism (albeit for the wrong reasons).

Liberals - pardon my language - need to wake the fuck up.

The cause against islamism is a Liberal cause. It is a cause against totalitarianism, misogyny, homophobia, the stiffling of democracy, free speech and a free press.

Liberals are too obsessed with Bush to notice this because they are obsessed with Bush. So obsessed that they are actually helping the cause of Islamofascism.

So either way fascists win.

111 Occasional Reader  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:32:42pm

re: #78 coquimbojoe


The left loves to embrace any fellow traveler

... until they win, at which point they quickly get to the business of slaughtering each other.

112 WriterMom  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:33:17pm

re: #86 Thanos

Support your lizard master, he might need it.

Word.

Charles is one of the most thoughtful, reasoned and intelligent people in cyberspace and the real world and a real class act. Thanks again Charles, for this incredible thing called LGF, for taking a stand and bringing us all together.

113 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:33:27pm

re: #101 ibrodsky

I hate when causes such as ours suffer splits, but I fear that is about to happen.


In this case I consider it a necessity. It's come down to the point where you can get accused of siding with CAIR for criticizing Nazis. I'm all for having a big tent but when Nazis are immune from criticism things have gone too far.

114 Truumax  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:33:30pm

re: #104 Occasional Reader

Mainstream acceptance, nothing else.

115 ZionistYoungster  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:33:37pm

"Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for the home-born; for I am the LORD your God." - Leviticus 24:24, probably the most explicitly anti-racist law in the Torah. Anti-multiculturalist, too (which amounts to the same thing--multiculturalism is just "reverse" racism).

116 MandyManners  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:34:02pm

re: #104 Occasional Reader

What do you think they were attempting to do by adopting this name?

Putting lipstick on a pig.

117 MrAndMrsSmith  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:34:23pm

Re: #86 Thanos

Understand that Charles is taking a very large stand with this post. There are others out there in Blog land on the right who are saying we should forgive the past etc.

It doesn't fall to us to forgive the sins of the past. It falls to us to make sure they aren't repeated. Anyone haughty enough to forgive these things is placing themselves at a station that is on par with God. We may "forgive" our enemies for the wrongs they have personnaly inflicted on us, but we can't forgive those that inflicted wrongs on so many others. It's simply not our station in life.

118 Pawn of the Oppressor  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:34:23pm

re: #58 Occasional Reader

Their comeback as Vlaams Belang was applauded in 2005 by David Duke and the neo-Nazi skinheads at Stormfront.

Well, those same people also applauded Cindy Sheehan. Therefore, Vlaams Belang must be "progressive".

/need I?

This is a perfect demonstration of the political suicide phenomenon in much of Western Europe. When any reasonable questions about immigration are banished from "respectable" political debate, they simply get pushed to the fringe-right parties, and give strength to these creeps.

That's the same sort of mechanism the Arabs use: Stifle local political dissent and point their young people at the Jews while they rob their own people blind. The only people who win are the Arabs in power.

The EU Soviet wins by banning all discussion of real problems and keeping normal people quiet. When the Neo-Nazis and other fringe thug groups become the only people who are willing to openly contest immigration issues in any way, the EUSSR types correctly (and perversely) say "look, only racist Nazis talk about immigration!" It's a closed loop, a death spiral, and a self-fulfilling prophecy. The only people who win, as usual, are the bureaucrats in suits, and the jihadists.

The same thing is happening here with immigration. The politicians hold hands with the illegal and the immoral to preserve their own stations, and anybody who questions this is tagged as a racist. The winners are agribusiness and construction company owners and politicians. Everybody else gets fucked, including immigrants who might actually just be looking for a job that doesn't suck.

This is what happens when bureaucracy meets PC. It turns into a game, or a system of scams where the Establishment works with the violent extra-legal minority groups to use the media as a tool against the non-violent middle class. "Give us what we want and nobody gets hurt." It's extortion.

119 mama winger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:34:38pm

re: #102 MrAndMrsSmith

We could go rounds on whether or not the Treaty of Versailles was unfair, and whether it led directly to the root causes of World War II, but in the end, it was one man who exploited the people of his nation for the goal of world domination and the extermination of one people.

My son is right now reading The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. He has always been a history buff , but even he was surprised at the level of evil pervasive in the culture prior to Hitler's takeover of Germany. We cannot let this happen again.

120 uptight  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:34:41pm

and the thing that REALLY pisses me off, is how Liberal blogs say "what about American fascism"

if America was fascist, where do you think your sorry liberal blogger arse would be? I jail, at best.

121 Red Sock  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:34:59pm

I don't agree with everything you say about the Vlaams Belang Party, Charles.

Your first example, the shunning of a resolution condemning the Nazi death camps. I wouldn't take the same position as this party myself, but I can go a long way with their arguments. For over years the leftist elite and mainstream media is on a smear campaign, branding everyone who dares to criticise Islam as a "Neo-Nazi" or worse. And it won't be a surprise to me if the people of the party were just banned from attending the commemorating the 60th anniversary of the liberation of the Auschwitz. It's also the case here in the Netherlands, many people/politicians critical of Islam aren't allowed at "leftwing" remembrance parties, because they are branded as "nazi's" by the mainstream media. But back to the Vlaams Belang, there might be some people who are antisemitic in the party, but the mainstream is not I think. They even worked closely together with the Jewish community in Antwerp before the elections there. So for me it's difficult to judge about this one, I can go a long way with the arguments on both sides.

But your second example I can't understand. A political party isn't responsible for their voters. What can they do about it if suddenly someone in a rally pops up a racist flag like this? It's about the same argumentation if you say that the republican party is racist, because some a Ku Klux Klan member down in Alabama votes for it. It doesn't make sense looking at their voters, just look at their policy, their political program and their politicians.

Your third example is completely wrong. The party was outlawed by a court of Walloon judges, all hating the party because they don't want the Flemish people to separte from Belgium. Do you know why the Vlaams Blok, the predecessor to Vlaams Belang, was banned? Because they said they "feared the rise of Islam" in their own country. And I'm not kidding! It was a political trial, with leftist, Walloon judges judging about a party they don't like. It would be the same if Cindy Sheehan was the judge in an impeachment trial of Cheney or something like that.

And so what that some neonazi lunatics are supporting the party? These people also support the green party for protesting against the bio industry and animal consumption. Does that make the green party a neonazi party? Hell no! What would you think if the people from Belgium would judge the GOP by looking at some racist, christian-fundamentalist people who are voting for the GOP?


But while I have my disagreements with you about the Vlaams Belang, I do agree with you about the Sverigedemokraterna. It'great you believe in personal freedom and liberty, I do the same. But don't look for ghosts behind every rock you can find and keep the discussion fair. I really don't think you should judge a politician by where some of his support on the internet comes from.

122 WriterMom  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:35:07pm

re: #104 Occasional Reader

No shortage of Orwellbabble out there. Democratic Republics of Thugistan, "Presidents" of Kleptocracies, etc.."Peace and Justice" organizations, yadda yadda.

123 coquimbojoe  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:35:21pm

Going to risk appearing to kiss butt here...

Thank you Charles for your diligence. It is nice to know that you attempt to do what so many others in the media, traditional or otherwise don't do. I like knowing that the information is correct, or that corrections come quickly when necessary.

As I said yesterday, most of us would not be here if we thought LGF was racist. Thank you for the diligence.

Now back to our previously scheduled snarkiness...

124 Golem Akbar  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:35:32pm

The left would love for anti-Islamists to unite with the pro-Nazis; it would vilify the whole pro-democracy anti-terror movement. It's clear to me that if VB wants to be taken seriously, they have some renouncing to do.

125 mama winger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:36:01pm

re: #117 MrAndMrsSmith

It doesn't fall to us to forgive the sins of the past. It falls to us to make sure they aren't repeated. Anyone haughty enough to forgive these things is placing themselves at a station that is on par with God. We may "forgive" our enemies for the wrongs they have personnaly inflicted on us, but we can't forgive those that inflicted wrongs on so many others. It's simply not our station in life.

worth the repeat

126 Thanos  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:36:30pm

re: #104 Occasional Reader

re: #73 Truumax


Back in 1996, the Sweden Democrats were nothing more than a loony fringe party here in Sweden, and back then they made no effort to hide their real intentions.

It's bizarre to me that a neo-nazi group managed to grab the innocuous name of "Sweden Democrats". Especially considering the Nazis' visceral hatred of democracy. What do you think they were attempting to do by adopting this name?

National Socialist German Worker's party was pretty innocuous sounding when it was formed as well.

127 jcm  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:36:35pm

re: #90 Ghengis Khan

Are there any history theorists or WW2 buffs out there? Would we have been able to handle the war without the aid of the USSR?
I'm not saying anything by this, I am just curious what people who study it think.

Ultimately yes, the industrial might of the US would have won, if our will held out for the length of the fight. However the eastern front bleed the Third Reich, they lost 8 million causalities fighting Russia. The Russians threw 16 million causalities into the meat grinder of the eastern front. The war would have been much longer and much more costly for the Allies without Russia. The question the becomes would the Allies have had the will for the length and cost of the fight.

128 Occasional Reader  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:36:35pm

re: #113 Killgore Trout

In this case I consider it a necessity.

Absolutely.

For anybody who is inclined to "split" because they think "we're being too hard on the poor Neo-Nazis"... well, the phrase "don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out" comes to mind.

129 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:36:46pm

re: #7 Killgore Trout

Thank you, Killgore.

There has never been any doubt that Charles is right.

And to answer #6 Ben Hur:

Will Pamela respond?

Either no, or with more crap.

130 J.S.  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:36:49pm

re: #90 Ghengis Khan

Many historians will say that the turning point of WWII came at the Battle of Stalingrad. That was when the entire German Sixth army was surrounded and defeated. The Battle of Stalingrad is said to have been the bloodiest in human history. wiki article here:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

131 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:37:25pm

100% Charles!

132 coquimbojoe  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:37:27pm

re: #111 Occasional Reader

re: #78 coquimbojoe


The left loves to embrace any fellow traveler

... until they win, at which point they quickly get to the business of slaughtering each other.

Right. Purges and pogroms for everyone. I believe that type of things help lose the Spanish Civil War for the left.

133 pegcity  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:37:28pm

Sadly i figure if these Nazi lite parties ever attained true power it would still be the remaining 9 jews who would be carted off and butchered first.

134 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:37:29pm

Baby & Bathwater thing- I doubt a proudly Jewish American Pamela 'Atlas' Geller or Bat Ye'or would attend a conference if they knew that neo-nazis would also be attending, and I suspect the majority of the attendees that weren't asshats probably had a lot of good discussions and made some progress.

135 The Other Les  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:37:54pm

re: #90 Ghengis Khan

Are there any history theorists or WW2 buffs out there? Would we have been able to handle the war without the aid of the USSR?
I'm not saying anything by this, I am just curious what people who study it think.

The Soviets were actively selling the Reich the oil and other resources they needed to carry on the war.

Without Soviet intervention (or invasion of the USSR by the Reich) there would eventually have been an invasion of the British Isles in '41 or '42, and a transatlantic slug fest with nuclear armed bombers in '46.

/just my opinion.

136 ironbill  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:38:06pm

This whole discussion reminds me of what my grandmother once told me: "If you make friends with bad characters, you'll show that you have a bad character."

137 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:38:13pm

re: #121 Red Sock

What can they do about it if suddenly someone in a rally pops up a racist flag like this?

Try waving a Nazi flag at a GOP rally and see what happens.

138 WriterMom  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:38:18pm

re: #121 Red Sock

Political parties can be judged on how quickly they disassociate themselves from ideas-in a formal way and what they do to disassociate from any fringe people as well.

139 Maine's Michael  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:38:28pm

Cute girls in Nazi outfits. Me likes.

140 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:38:40pm

re: #58 Occasional Reader

Their comeback as Vlaams Belang was applauded in 2005 by David Duke and the neo-Nazi skinheads at Stormfront.

Well, those same people also applauded Cindy Sheehan. Therefore, Vlaams Belang must be "progressive".

/need I?

This is a perfect demonstration of the political suicide phenomenon in much of Western Europe. When any reasonable questions about immigration are banished from "respectable" political debate, they simply get pushed to the fringe-right parties, and give strength to these creeps.

It's just like Europe in the 1930s, where people either migrated to the far left or the far right.

141 Dead Sea Squirrel  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:38:42pm

This has happened before at LGF. Remember the "Friday Night Massacre"? Some lizards with real energy, talent, and intelligence have regrettably parted company with Charles for being too "soft," too "PC."

And who reads their blogs? Who quotes them?

Charles is in a position of moral strength and clarity on this, and the truth will out.

142 WriterMom  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:39:09pm

re: #137 Killgore Trout

For sure.

143 Gordon Marock  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:39:18pm

re: #90 Ghengis Khan

Are there any history theorists or WW2 buffs out there? Would we have been able to handle the war without the aid of the USSR?
I'm not saying anything by this, I am just curious what people who study it think.

At a minimum, the war would have been greatly prolonged, but would have likely ended quickly once we started sprinkling nuclear bombs around.

144 Ghengis Khan  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:39:38pm

Alright now that we have some historical discussion going about WW2, I'd like to bring another angle into it. If we hadn't allied with Stalin, would the massacres in Russia have been less, even if the war ended up being longer?
Obviously in theory.

145 Occasional Reader  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:39:43pm

Truumax, Mandy, et al:

But considering what Truumax said about the "Sweden Democrats" not really attempting to disguise their neo-nazi agenda back then, it's surprising that they'd have adopted this name. I mean, it's like the KKK dubbing themselves the "Society for Racial Equality", and changing nothing at all about their ideology.

146 funkyfantom  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:40:07pm

re: #124 Golem Akbar

The left would love for anti-Islamists to unite with the pro-Nazis; it would vilify the whole pro-democracy anti-terror movement. It's clear to me that if VB wants to be taken seriously, they have some renouncing to do.

Seems like the Islamists are just being shown no love at all.

I mean, they allied themselves with the Fuerher, the Grand Mufti got a full state reception in Berlin, etc. and now the Nazis are reacting against their rude behaviour.

147 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:40:21pm

re: #134 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet

Baby & Bathwater thing- I doubt a proudly Jewish American Pamela 'Atlas' Geller or Bat Ye'or would attend a conference if they knew that neo-nazis would also be attending, and I suspect the majority of the attendees that weren't asshats probably had a lot of good discussions and made some progress.

I will say, comparing LGF to CAIR is a rhetorical low blow, and should be withdrawn and apologized for.

148 coquimbojoe  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:40:40pm

MMMM Hummus and flatbread from Trader Joes.... Wait, what was it we were talking about?

149 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:40:41pm

re: #121 Red Sock

And so what that some neonazi lunatics are supporting the party?

The same could be said for the National Socialist party in Germany. So what if there are a few extremists in the party?!?!? You've lost your mind.

150 ibrodsky  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:40:47pm

re: #113 Killgore Trout

re: #101 ibrodsky


I hate when causes such as ours suffer splits, but I fear that is about to happen.

In this case I consider it a necessity. It's come down to the point where you can get accused of siding with CAIR for criticizing Nazis. I'm all for having a big tent but when Nazis are immune from criticism things have gone too far.

Agreed.

Unfortunately, unless I misread what he typed, Fjordman just said it is essential to support Vlaams Belang. (See Dutch Intifada thread.)

151 Psaturn  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:41:15pm

re: #13 Charles


Charles, I really appreciate you doing this...

It goes to show others that Charles and LGFers (at least most of them!) are anti semitism of any stripes...

That we are NOT Anti Arabs...but rather, we see the danger from Islamofascism...extremist Islam or whatever names you want to call it.

By the way, Charles, I did forward that article you posted about the Palestinian Canadian who said something about stopping the charade of Palestinian nation and yada yada to John Hubers of anti-zionist christianzionism.org and he said not to send him HATE MAIL...

What!? Hate mail? From a Palestinian Muslim who I finally agree with?

152 Maine's Michael  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:41:22pm

Had Hitler not gone to war with Russia, and not chased out the Jewish scientists and created 'Nazi Physics' in their place, Germany would have won the war.

153 MandyManners  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:41:25pm

re: #145 Occasional Reader

Also, maybe they don't have the guts to name themselves correctly.

154 Ringo the Gringo  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:41:32pm

My concern is for preserving classical Western liberalism not reviving the Third Reich.

Toss the Nazis from the train!

155 MrAndMrsSmith  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:41:47pm

Re: #119 Mama winger

Both my wife and I have read that book (my Lord what a read, and it's not like it's an easy one, at that), but it does put a great deal into perspective. Knowing what the nation was going through post-World War I, and what led to the rise of such vehement socialist nationalism. Had Hitler not played on the fears, the anger, and the bigotry of his nation, he likely wouldn't have been the problem that he turned out to be.

Of course, in judgiung Hitler, we should also be judging those that enabled him. Hitler didn't try to hide what he was doing. Anyone who has read Mein Kampf knows precisely what he was going to do. Chalk it up to the pacifists of the time for allowing him to make the strides he did. None of them ever thought he would be a threat. In fact, it was the London Times which declared that Hitler was someone other nations "could do business with."

The ostriches then ignored the signs on the horizon. We cannot do that again, ever. And yet we see similar signs now in the world that bear a strikingly insidious similarity to 1935.

156 Pawn of the Oppressor  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:42:07pm

re: #90 Ghengis Khan

Are there any history theorists or WW2 buffs out there? Would we have been able to handle the war without the aid of the USSR?
I'm not saying anything by this, I am just curious what people who study it think.

Yes, but it would have taken a lot longer and the consequences for us would have been devastating. We'd have probably ended up nuking Berlin.

Consider that they were already looking at drafting people in their 40's towards the end of 1945. There are a few good reasons we let the Russians have Berlin. Our war was a two-front war, just like Nazi Germany's.

157 ibrodsky  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:42:26pm

Famous sayings of ibrodsky:

When in doubt, stick with Charles.

158 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:42:30pm

re: #116 MandyManners

Putting lipstick on a pig.

Did you do this? ;) Kiddo hold the pig while you did it?

159 Golem Akbar  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:42:38pm

re: #110 uptight

The cause against islamism is a Liberal cause. It is a cause against totalitarianism, misogyny, homophobia, the stiffling of democracy, free speech and a free press.

Absolutely 100% spot on. Liberalism and Islamism are poles apart. Islamofascist would enslave and destroy liberal ideas. Not to mention liberals, themselves. Today's liberals need to catch a clue.

160 Roger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:42:43pm
161 Capt_Faust  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:42:55pm

re: #40 The Other Les

Glad someone got it...

Heh...I stepped away for a moment...

Now look at all the posts...

/ Get me that license plate number...we're going to kill that SOB...

162 coquimbojoe  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:43:05pm

re: #151 Psaturn

It goes to show others that Charles and LGFers (at least most of them!) are anti anti-semitism of any stripes...

There fixed that for ya...

163 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:43:29pm

re: #139 Maine's Michael

I hope that you just forgot your sarc mark.

164 mama winger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:43:29pm
#121 Red Sock

And so what that some neonazi lunatics are supporting the party?

1. What steps has that party made to disassociate itself from the neonazis - both privately and publicly?

2. What are members of the party doing to insure that they are not infiltrated by these groups in the future?

165 Thor-Zone  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:43:37pm

re: #110 uptight

Liberals are too obsessed with Bush to notice this because they are obsessed with Bush. So obsessed that they are actually helping the cause of Islamofascism.

It's a mad mad mad mad mad mad mad world

166 MandyManners  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:43:50pm

re: #158 NY Nana

re: #116 MandyManners


Putting lipstick on a pig.

Did you do this? ;) Kiddo hold the pig while you did it?

LOLOLOLOL! Thank you for the giggle and grin!

167 so.cal.swede  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:44:05pm

Charles.

I can't even believe you're even considering that Sweden Democrats could even possibly, remotely, distantly be on "our" side of things.

These guys have been OPENLY neo-nazi for as long as i've known them. They are a joke, they are based on racism, fascism, and anti semitism, not to say open JEW HATE.

Don't even think about it Charles. These are the bad guys.

from their page:

Från bomberjackor till kostym och slips

1988 bildades Sverigedemokraterna (SD). Partiet som grundades av nazister och fascister är i dag Sveriges största parti utanför riksdagen.

From Bomber Jackets* to suit and tie.

The Sweden Democrats were formed in 1988. The party that was formed by nazis and fascists is today the biggest party in Sweden outside the parliament.


*) Very common neo-nazi garb is: Shaved head, Bomber Jacket, steel-toe boots (Doc Martens), and jeans.

168 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:44:23pm

re: #129 NY Nana

Early today she linked to articles praising Vlaams Belang and calling them a essential part in the fight against radical Islam.

169 mama winger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:44:29pm

re: #155 MrAndMrsSmith

The ostriches then ignored the signs on the horizon. We cannot do that again, ever. And yet we see similar signs now in the world that bear a strikingly insidious similarity to 1935.

These words are true.

170 MrAndMrsSmith  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:44:41pm

Re: #125 Mama Winger

Just speaking the truth. And people wonder how I got to be so damn smart and wise in such a short time. Simple answer? I pay attention to life and to the world, and all the lessons they bestow. They're not always easy, and they're not always kind, but they are lessons, nonetheless. At times, they bear repeating and revealing. I'm only happy to oblige.

171 Maine's Michael  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:44:55pm

Unfortunately, it is the hard right that will mobilize Europe against Islam. And with the hard right comes Jew Hatred.

It takes a very enlightened hard right party to see the benefits of keeping Jews out of their sights.

172 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:45:04pm

re: #150 ibrodsky

Yup, he's going to be rather upset by this too.

173 Occasional Reader  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:45:31pm

re: #90 Ghengis Khan

Would we have been able to handle the war without the aid of the USSR?

At the very least, the war would have gone on much, much longer had Hitler not invaded the USSR. Off the top of my head... the Eastern Front accounted for something like 80% of the Wehrmacht's battle casualties, and a similiar figure in terms of deployed troops.

On a similar note: One thing Martin Amis points out in Koba the Dread is the bizarre phenomenon of Stalin's popularity about Soviet citizens (down to this day), compared to most Germans' contempt of Hitler by the end of the war. This despite the fact that Stalin engaged in a war of terror against a far, far larger percentage of his own population, that did Hitler of his. (German Jews constituted 1% or less of Germany's population; in contrast, the percentage of the USSR population that were arrested, internally exiled, or simply murdered outright during Stalin's reign, is comfortably into double digits.)

174 jcm  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:45:42pm

re: #135 The Other Les

re: #90 Ghengis Khan

Are there any history theorists or WW2 buffs out there? Would we have been able to handle the war without the aid of the USSR?
I'm not saying anything by this, I am just curious what people who study it think.

The Soviets were actively selling the Reich the oil and other resources they needed to carry on the war.

Without Soviet intervention (or invasion of the USSR by the Reich) there would eventually have been an invasion of the British Isles in '41 or '42, and a transatlantic slug fest with nuclear armed bombers in '46.

/just my opinion.

Germany was on the wrong track for the nuclear bomb. Heisenberg the main nuclear scientist made an fundamental error in the his calculations, something only the top level scientist would notice. Whether this was accidental or intentional to precluded a Nazi bomb is a matter of debate. The result is based on what we know of the Nazi effort they were doomed to fail until that error was resolved.

175 Golem Akbar  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:45:51pm

re: #148 coquimbojoe

MMMM Hummus and flatbread from Trader Joes.... Wait, what was it we were talking about?

Now stop that! (channeling Jack Benny)

176 debutaunt  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:45:55pm

#140 Ward Cleaver 10/24/07 12:38:40 pm reply quote report 0

re: #58 Occasional Reader

Their comeback as Vlaams Belang was applauded in 2005 by David Duke and the neo-Nazi skinheads at Stormfront.

Well, those same people also applauded Cindy Sheehan. Therefore, Vlaams Belang must be "progressive".
/need I?

This is a perfect demonstration of the political suicide phenomenon in much of Western Europe. When any reasonable questions about immigration are banished from "respectable" political debate, they simply get pushed to the fringe-right parties, and give strength to these creeps.

It's just like Europe in the 1930s, where people either migrated to the far left or the far right.


I think that describing it as far left and far right is part of the confusion. Thinking of having full individual rights or some /Nazi/Communist/islamic-sharia-imposing thug take away our individual rights.re: #140 Ward Cleaver

177 Maine's Michael  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:46:07pm

re: #163 NY Nana

Uh, yeah. Sure. I guess so . . . .

178 The Other Les  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:46:29pm

re: #107 MandyManners

re: #99 The Other Les

[kicks Les in the shins]

Ouch!

179 Ringo the Gringo  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:46:30pm

re: #167 so.cal.swede

Charles,
I can't even believe you're even considering that Sweden Democrats could even possibly, remotely, distantly be on "our" side of things.

Seems to me that he's doing just the opposite.

180 insanity police  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:46:30pm
LGF is as anti-jihad as anyone on the web; but I do not accept that we’ve reached the point where we should accept these kinds of people as allies, simply because they’re hitching a ride on the bandwagon and saying the right things when the spotlight is on them.

Bravo Charles, I totally agree.

O/T
This is absolutely sickening!

Breaking News: University of Michigan Press Decides To Continue Its Relationship With Pluto Press

181 Highrise  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:46:41pm

Charles,

Thanks for providing more information.

A found a few of the stories on the sioe page dealing with the rallies and VB attending, interesting and can certainly understand why one would be cautious.

182 jcm  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:46:53pm

re: #154 Ringo the Gringo

My concern is for preserving classical Western liberalism not reviving the Third Reich.

Toss the Nazis from the train!

Toss the Nazis from the under train!
Fixed it.

183 Capt_Faust  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:46:58pm

re: #74 MandyManners

Yeah...my parents told me all about that one. They lived in Illinois at that time...

my comment was from the Blues Bros...

/ Imaging that 74 Doge zooming at them, and having them all jump off the bridge is very satisfying. Course, it would have been more satisfying if they ran them over...meh...

184 Golem Akbar  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:47:24pm

re: #168 Killgore Trout

re: #129 NY Nana

Early today she linked to articles praising Vlaams Belang and calling them a essential part in the fight against radical Islam.


Mistakes can be made. It happens to the best of us.

185 gmsc  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:47:35pm

OT:

Iran Lashes Out At the GOP!

Apparently, they have no problem with the U.S. Democrat party. Gee, what a surprise.

186 EtNorskTroll  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:47:52pm
LGF is as anti-jihad as anyone on the web; but I do not accept that we’ve reached the point where we should accept these kinds of people as allies, simply because they’re hitching a ride on the bandwagon and saying the right things when the spotlight is on them.

Now you are beginning to understand why Republicans cannot/will not accept Rudy Gulliani as the candidate for POTUS, Charles.

Abortion is way worse than racism (although both are interconnected--hatred causes killing) and the Republicans cannot accept this person as an allies, simply because he's hitching a ride on the bandwagon and saying the right things when the spotlight is upon him.

Can you kind of see it from that point of view, Charles?

?

~Norsk Troll

187 Thanos  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:47:55pm

re: #121 Red Sock


A death camp is a death camp. There's no equivocation allowed, you either condemn it or you fucking don't.

Sorry, you lost me for the rest of your post there, whatever you said.

Now you know why people question Vlaams Belang and their supporters. There's no excuse for not condemning Nazism that's acceptable, and anything said after that is meaningless.

Bottom Line: it's just not very smart political strategy to keep yourself in a postion where you can be marginalized by a single phrase, no matter how much you support causes I might agree with you won't ever have my support.

188 mama winger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:48:07pm

re: #170 MrAndMrsSmith

We need tto teach ourselves and our children. We have always made sure that dinner table conversation is a time of teaching important lessons. This is one of them.


Family car trips.

Late night conversations.

Waiting at the doctor's office.


All times we can be teaching, teaching.

189 ZionistYoungster  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:48:18pm

re: #104 Occasional Reader

"People's Republic of..."

"Information Clearing House" (the name of one of the wackiest conspiracy-theory sites on the entire web)

190 Ringo the Gringo  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:48:28pm

re: #182 jcm

You almost fixed it.

Toss the Nazis under train!

There, I re-fixed it for you.

191 Charles  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:48:32pm

re: #121 Red Sock

A political party isn't responsible for their voters. What can they do about it if suddenly someone in a rally pops up a racist flag like this? It's about the same argumentation if you say that the republican party is racist, because some a Ku Klux Klan member down in Alabama votes for it. It doesn't make sense looking at their voters, just look at their policy, their political program and their politicians.

No, I cannot agree. A political party is nothing more than the sum of its supporters.

LGF is very anti-jihad, and for years I've been pointing out the dangers of Islamofascism. Yet you won't find any support for LGF at Stormfront. In fact, those pinheads despise me, and I wouldn't have it any other way -- because I've made it very clear over the years that they are not welcome here, and that I am not their fellow traveler. The fact that they support VB says that they don't feel the same rejection from them.

If someone can unfurl a White Power flag at a VB rally and not be immediately tossed out on their skinhead asses, that says something. And it's not good.

192 SlothB77  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:49:00pm

SHOCK DOCS: THE NEW REPUBLIC 'SHOCK TROOPS' STORY COLLAPSES

WED Oct 24 2007 12:29:44 ET

The DRUDGE REPORT has obtained internal documents from the investigation of THE NEW REPUBLIC'S "Baghdad Diarist", Scott Thomas Beauchamp, an Army private turned war correspondent who reported tales of military malfeasance from the Iraq War front.

The documents appear to expose that once the veracity of Beauchamp's diaries were called into question, and an Army investigation ensued, THE NEW REPUBLIC has failed to publicly account for publishing slanderous falsehoods about the U.S. military in a time of war.

193 Yank in the EU  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:49:02pm

re: #121 Red Sock

I have no doubt that there are people in the Vlaams Belang that aren't in the least racist or sympathetic to white supremacist types, but your portrayal of the Vlaams Blok, especially in the period of 10 years ago, is quite incomplete. I read materials, which I saved, from them that were plainly nationalist in an exclusive way - for the native Flemish people and against immigrants as such. I also spoke to representatives from the Blok on immigration. It was not all just honorable issues. Notice also Dewinter's positions my post in #16.

194 so.cal.swede  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:49:12pm

re: #179 Ringo the Gringo

re: #167 so.cal.swede


Charles,
I can't even believe you're even considering that Sweden Democrats could even possibly, remotely, distantly be on "our" side of things.

Seems to me that he's doing just the opposite.

Ringo, from Charles post he seems to hint that he had some "suspicions" about the SD, and that they had "disturbing connections".

No

These guys are neo nazi scum, 100%. they want to be nazis, and they always have been. There are no suspicions or disturbing "connections". They ARE neo-nazis.

195 Truumax  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:49:39pm

Since I was the one who originally provided Charles with the expo.se links and described the Sweden Democrats in the "When Friends Attack" thread, I might need to clarify things again. Not as lengthy as I did back then, so if you want to know more about them, read the comments on that thread:

The Sweden Democrats are not a neo-nazi party today, they have changed from their original incarnation. However, I still label them as a xenophobic and racist party who try their best to put up a PC facade in the media.

But the fact remains true: They have nazi roots, and were founded in the swedish white power movement. And as little as ten years ago, they still shared a lot of their ideology with more extreme neo-nazi parties.

That photo is not who they are today. But it's an important reminder of where they came from, and why they can not be trusted in any way. And also, why I would never consider them an ally in anything.

196 mama winger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:49:51pm

re: #186 EtNorskTroll

I understand your thought, Norski. The line in the sand. What is so vital that it cannot be compromised.

We all have a line.

197 Ghengis Khan  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:49:55pm

re: #186 EtNorskTroll

LGF is as anti-jihad as anyone on the web; but I do not accept that we’ve reached the point where we should accept these kinds of people as allies, simply because they’re hitching a ride on the bandwagon and saying the right things when the spotlight is on them.

Now you are beginning to understand why Republicans cannot/will not accept Rudy Gulliani as the candidate for POTUS, Charles.

Abortion is way worse than racism (although both are interconnected--hatred causes killing) and the Republicans cannot accept this person as an allies, simply because he's hitching a ride on the bandwagon and saying the right things when the spotlight is upon him.

Can you kind of see it from that point of view, Charles?

?

~Norsk Troll

My thoughts exactly, I can't support even a seeming ally like Rudy, if he supports slaughtering our children. Now if I have to choose between Rudy slaughtering our children and Hillary slaughtering our children AND bringing about the fall of Western Civilization. Then Rudy is obviously preferable, but can't we get another option?

198 SlothB77  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:50:07pm
Document 1: Beauchamp Refuses to Stand by Story (Beauchamp Transcript Part 1)

THE NEW REPUBLIC has been standing behind the stories from their Baghdad Diarist, Scott Thomas Beauchamp, since questions were first raised about their accuracy over the summer. On August 10, the editors at TNR accused the Army of "stonewalling" their investigation into the stories by preventing them from speaking with Beauchamp. The DRUDGE REPORT has since obtained the transcript of a September 7 call between TNR editor Frank Foer, TNR executive editor Peter Scoblic, and Private Beauchamp. During the call, Beauchamp declines to stand by his stories, telling his editors that "I just want it to end. I'm not going to talk to anyone about anything really." The editors respond that "we just can't, in good conscience, continue to defend the piece" without an explanation, but Beauchamp responds only that he "doesn't care what the public thinks." The editors then ask Beauchamp to cancel scheduled interviews with the WASHINGTON POST and NEWSWEEK.

Document 2: Beauchamp Admits to "Gross Exaggerations and Inaccurate Allegations" (Beauchamp Transcript Part 2)

The DRUDGE REPORT has also obtained a signed "Memorandum for Record" in which Beauchamp recants his stories and concedes the facts of the Army's investigation -- that his stories contained "gross exaggerations and inaccurate allegations of misconduct" by his fellow soldiers.

Document 3: Army Investigation: Tales "Completely Fabricated," Beauchamp Wanted to be Hemingway

The third document obtained by the DRUDGE REPORT is the Army's official report on the investigation into the allegations made by Private Beauchamp. The Army concluded that Beauchamp had "completely fabricated" the story of mocking a disfigured woman, that his description of a "Saddam-era dumping ground" was false, and that claims that he and his men had deliberately targeted dogs with their armored vehicles was "completely unfounded." Further the report stated "that Private Beauchamp desired to use his experiences to enhance his writing and provide legitimacy to his work possibly becoming the next Hemingway."

The report concludes that "Private Beauchamp takes small bits of truth and twists and exaggerates them into fictional accounts that he puts forth as the whole truth for public consumption."

Developing...

199 Maine's Michael  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:50:09pm

re: #174 jcm

From what I have seen and read, it was not intentional. Heisenberg actually felt he was on the right track. The British had him and his team locked up in a villa for months secretely recording their conversations.

They were going nowhere with their atom bomb.

This was the result of establishing 'Aryan Physics', untainted by Jewish thought. It sounds nutty, but they believed the Jews were such untermenschen that even their science was inferior.

200 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:50:09pm

re: #166 MandyManners

Does this mean you and Kiddo didn't do it?

*sigh* ;)

She reminds me of someone, so help me!

201 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:50:27pm

re: #184 Golem Akbar

She shows no sign of backing down and I don't expect her too.

202 EtNorskTroll  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:50:31pm

re: #139 Maine's Michael

Cute girls in Nazi outfits. Me likes.

How's about when they're bashing your head in, Michael?

How's about when they are shooting your friends, while lined up against a wall?

How about then, Hmmmmmmm?

You should come to Norway some time and say that. Especially to the older generation.

Bring an extra set of teeth.

You'll be needing them.

*spit*

~ENT

203 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:50:50pm

Charles, would you please remove that Nazi bitch from the home page? Not only do you open yourself up to someone jiggling the text to have you saying something else with a "screenshot" I hate looking at swastikas.

In other news, Bin Laden is very concerned about the situation in Darfur. He is so concerned he has called for Jihad against the peacekeeping forces. The great hero of Islam is encouraging the rape and murder of his fellow Muslims, what a guy!

204 Highrise  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:51:10pm

re: #157 ibrodsky

Famous sayings of ibrodsky:


When in doubt, stick with Charles.


Yep yep! He's earned my trust and I appreciate all that he has done and is doing to contribute to making this world a better place by shining the light on evil.

205 so.cal.swede  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:51:11pm

re: #195 Truumax

Since I was the one who originally provided Charles with the expo.se links and described the Sweden Democrats in the "When Friends Attack" thread, I might need to clarify things again. Not as lengthy as I did back then, so if you want to know more about them, read the comments on that thread:

The Sweden Democrats are not a neo-nazi party today, they have changed from their original incarnation. However, I still label them as a xenophobic and racist party who try their best to put up a PC facade in the media.

But the fact remains true: They have nazi roots, and were founded in the swedish white power movement. And as little as ten years ago, they still shared a lot of their ideology with more extreme neo-nazi parties.

That photo is not who they are today. But it's an important reminder of where they came from, and why they can not be trusted in any way. And also, why I would never consider them an ally in anything.

Give me a break, they might be trying to whitewash their facade, but they are through and through neo-nazis.

206 BabbaZee  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:51:21pm

#16 Yank in the EU


In this article Dewinter elucidates that his party's roots are in the Flemish Nazi Collaborators, as well as support for Haider, Le Pen and the NPD, which are all worse than those photographs. [Link: [Link: www.filipdewinter.be...]...]

Still there are some respected and decent people in the Vlaams Belang, especially Paul Belien and Alexandra Colen, his wife. They insist that Dewinter and the VB have dramatically changed their positions from the 1990s, are not racist, and are concerned mainly with saving their civilization from Islamism. For now, my stance is to continue to support their fight, but to be very circumspect with joining ranks with Dewinter.

I am in day 2 of independent research on all of this crapola , the result thus far is my being even more confused than I was when I started it, primarily for reasons similar to what you state here.

Exhausting.
I need a long nap.

WLGF out

207 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:51:26pm

re: #168 Killgore Trout

She has gone over to the dark side on this one, sadly. And she is soooo wrong.

208 Occasional Reader  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:52:05pm
Stalin's popularity about among Soviet citizens

I am just Mr. Typo today. I blame it on First Day Back From Vacation Syndrome.

209 Golem Akbar  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:52:11pm

re: #191 Charles

If someone can unfurl a White Power flag at a VB rally and not be immediately tossed out on their skinhead asses, that says something. And it's not good

Said and said.

210 lgfvidz  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:52:21pm

Well, Its Finally Happening:

Foster child to be taken away because Christian couple refuse to teach him about homosexuality

The Mathericks' case comes at a time when there is a chronic shortage of foster parents, who work on a voluntary basis.

An extra 8,000 are needed to plug the gaps in the service.

Researchers have found that continually moving children from home to home can have a devastating impact on their education and general welfare.

But a report last year revealed that the shortage of carers meant that some children in care are being forced to move up to three times a year.

David Taylor, Somerset County Council's corporate director for children and young people, said: "No decision has been made about the deregistration of Mr and Mrs Matherick.

"The council is committed to promoting the interests of children and young people and welcomes foster carers from all backgrounds and faiths."

Goodbye, world. Hello, Jesus.

211 Pawn of the Oppressor  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:52:58pm

re: #173 Occasional Reader

re: #90 Ghengis Khan


Would we have been able to handle the war without the aid of the USSR?

At the very least, the war would have gone on much, much longer had Hitler not invaded the USSR. Off the top of my head... the Eastern Front accounted for something like 80% of the Wehrmacht's battle casualties, and a similiar figure in terms of deployed troops.

On a similar note: One thing Martin Amis points out in Koba the Dread is the bizarre phenomenon of Stalin's popularity about Soviet citizens (down to this day), compared to most Germans' contempt of Hitler by the end of the war. This despite the fact that Stalin engaged in a war of terror against a far, far larger percentage of his own population, that did Hitler of his. (German Jews constituted 1% or less of Germany's population; in contrast, the percentage of the USSR population that were arrested, internally exiled, or simply murdered outright during Stalin's reign, is comfortably into double digits.)

Another fun footnote is that the first wave of the German invasion was seen as a liberation in Ukraine/Eastern Russia. There's a biography of a German tank commander (the name escapes me) which is full of his descriptions of what Stalinist USSR was like when the Germans first drove in - villages where they hadn't heard any news about the outside world since the end of WW1, people welcoming the German columns, and an interesting description of the first Christian service to be held in Smolensk cathedral since the Revolution.

I've also read that they had difficulty mobilizing Russian men to fight for Stalin, so they had to change their recruiting angle and ask people to fight the "Fascist Invader" for the sake of "The Motherland". They couldn't get anybody interested in fighting for Communism. It was only an appeal to raw, blatant territorialism that got Russia's men mobilized for war.

Then there's the fact that the Nazis made so much headway because the Russian officer corps had been gutted by years of purges since the early 30's...

212 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:52:58pm

re: #197 Ghengis Khan

Rudy's a nazi?
Get a grip.

213 Red Sock  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:53:14pm

re: #164 mama winger

#121 Red Sock And so what that some neonazi lunatics are supporting the party?

1. What steps has that party made to disassociate itself from the neonazis - both privately and publicly?

2. What are members of the party doing to insure that they are not infiltrated by these groups in the future?


I read much about Flemish politics, both from the websites of the mayor political parties and the media. A few months ago there was a racist murder in Antwerp, and the Vlaams Belang quickly disassociate theirselves with the killers. They always do this when there is talk about racism, at least for the last few years. The party was certainly racist in the past, but I think the vast majority of the party, and their electorate (the electorate was of course much, much smaller in the days that the party was more extreme) have put that chapter behind them.

And also keep in mind that there were quite a few racist Republican politicians in the past from the deep south in the US. Made this the GOP those days racist, does it make the GOP a racist party right now?

214 Maine's Michael  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:53:35pm

re: #191 Charles

There is a way to solve the problem of Islamofascism and european islamificationwithout Nazi-like mechanisms.

Europe, however, will likely revert to form, and deal with things the way they always have. With genocide.

The pendulum swings back hard, fast and far when it has been pulled so far to the left . . .

215 Pullus Iulius  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:53:40pm

All this angst about a bunch of limp dick potsies who like to play dress-up. It sounds to me like the ideological rift is among the nazis: whether to side with the islamist holocaust-deniers, or these aryanist fools. I believe the Specials summed it up in Do The Dog:
All you punks and all you teds
National Front and natty dreads
Mods, rockers, hippies and skinheads
Keep on fighting 'til you're dead

216 jcm  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:54:14pm

re: #199 Maine's Michael

re: #174 jcm

From what I have seen and read, it was not intentional. Heisenberg actually felt he was on the right track. The British had him and his team locked up in a villa for months secretely recording their conversations.

They were going nowhere with their atom bomb.

This was the result of establishing 'Aryan Physics', untainted by Jewish thought. It sounds nutty, but they believed the Jews were such untermenschen that even their science was inferior.

I agree it was not intentional, some do make that argument. The Nazi really only had Heisenberg. We had Fermi, Oppenheimer, and a whole raft of boffins.

217 Rednek  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:54:20pm
218 ZionistYoungster  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:54:23pm

re: #206 BabbaZee

BabbaZee! Shalom to the power of... God! (No other power.)

Sweet dreams, Babbazzzzz...

219 alan  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:54:34pm

Right on, Charles. I agree with you 100%.
They don't call them Islamo-fascists for nothing. Fascists are fascists, whether left, right, or Islamic and they are all bad for freedeom.

220 Suzette  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:54:50pm

re: #114 Truumax

re: #104 Occasional Reader

Mainstream acceptance, nothing else.

Trying to come back in power through the back door and with a smile and mask on their face?

221 MrAndMrsSmith  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:54:55pm

Re: #188 Mama Winger

As my grandfather used to remind me, we may live a long time on this little mudball, but the learning never ceases. We learn new things everyday. I wish i had all the answers, but I don't, so I just keep on going.

But when lessons need to be meted out to others who forget them, or have never learned them, it falls to us to instruct them. It's a lot like these kids nowadays that think the Che shirts are "cool" and he was a "cool guy." If only they knew the truth. But, then again, there are those that are sucked into this sort of crap.

How many times have we seen Zombie, or Charles, or Michelle post images from antiwar rallies here in the US where the Communists, neo-Nazis, anarchists, etc. are represented? Too many times to list and likely the sort of search that could crash servers. There are those who willingly embrace this sort of crap because they've been fed a line that those groups are on the "right" side of an issue.

But how right can one be when they advocate for the subjugation of others either through violence or intimidation? They can't be for the simple reason that we, as humans, have an inherent need, desire, and right to be free.

222 Maine's Michael  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:55:20pm

re: #202 EtNorskTroll

Oh puleaze. Lighten up.

A lame joke, to be sure.

Norway has nothing very little to be proud of as regards WW2.

223 EtNorskTroll  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:55:26pm

re: #197 Ghengis Khan

re: #186 EtNorskTroll

LGF is as anti-jihad as anyone on the web; but I do not accept that we’ve reached the point where we should accept these kinds of people as allies, simply because they’re hitching a ride on the bandwagon and saying the right things when the spotlight is on them.


Now you are beginning to understand why Republicans cannot/will not accept Rudy Gulliani as the candidate for POTUS, Charles.Abortion is way worse than racism (although both are interconnected--hatred causes killing) and the Republicans cannot accept this person as an allies, simply because he's hitching a ride on the bandwagon and saying the right things when the spotlight is upon him.

Can you kind of see it from that point of view, Charles?

?

~Norsk Troll

My thoughts exactly, I can't support even a seeming ally like Rudy, if he supports slaughtering our children. Now if I have to choose between Rudy slaughtering our children and Hillary slaughtering our children AND bringing about the fall of Western Civilization. Then Rudy is obviously preferable, but can't we get another option?

And what if supporting these knuckleheads from Sweden keeps the world from being taken over by Islamofascists, Gehngis?

Will you support them to protect the rest of the innocent people in the world who would enslave them (as clearly stated in the 'Queeran' and their own stated goals)?

Here's an ironic twist for you: Will you accept/support these Swedish knuckleheads to keep the Islamofascists from completing their stated goal of killing every single Jew in Israel?

I swear, sometimes I think the world has gone completely insane...

~Norsk Troll

224 Rednek  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:55:37pm

re #217


the Levi-Prodi law obliges anyone who has a website or a blog to get a publishing company and to have a journalist who is on the register of professionals as the responsible director.
225 Ghengis Khan  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:55:59pm

re: #212 Killgore Trout

huh? where did you get that from? I just said that I won't vote for him because he supports abortion. Not unless it's him or Hillary.
Try understanding what people write before responding to them. geez

226 experiencedtraveller  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:56:21pm
I’m in this fight because I believe in personal freedom and liberty

Well said.

227 JHW  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:56:21pm

re: #190 Ringo the Gringo

Ringo, way, way OT but I left a comment for you(168) on the Dutch thread. No big thing.

228 Thanos  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:56:38pm

re: #213 Red Sock

re: #164 mama winger


#121 Red Sock And so what that some neonazi lunatics are supporting the party?

1. What steps has that party made to disassociate itself from the neonazis - both privately and publicly?

2. What are members of the party doing to insure that they are not infiltrated by these groups in the future?


I read much about Flemish politics, both from the websites of the mayor political parties and the media. A few months ago there was a racist murder in Antwerp, and the Vlaams Belang quickly disassociate theirselves with the killers. They always do this when there is talk about racism, at least for the last few years. The party was certainly racist in the past, but I think the vast majority of the party, and their electorate (the electorate was of course much, much smaller in the days that the party was more extreme) have put that chapter behind them.

And also keep in mind that there were quite a few racist Republican politicians in the past from the deep south in the US. Made this the GOP those days racist, does it make the GOP a racist party right now?


But the killer admitted it, and that he did it because his family belonged to VB. Let's not ommit facts.

229 damnyanqui  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:56:50pm

I'm afraid this is a time to tread carefully.
A quick survey of 20th century European history shows that the ideological situation there is much much worse than the situation in the United States.
For almost a century now, Europe has been dominated by the kind of mushy pseudo intellectual liberalism that brought us such triumphs as the League of Nations and the U.N. Nice ideas but pathologically useless for fighting real dangers like the Soviets or, now, the terrorists.
These are the people who created the mess the continent, and Britain, now confront, inviting and giving free reign to extremists who still advocate the destruction of the very societies that host them.
The alternative has been, and apparently remains, some variant of Fascism (with a capital "F," not the vague lowere case "f" usually used as a perjorative), the Italian and Spanish versions of which were oppressive but nowhere near the homicidal insanity of the Nazis.
Sorry, but at the moment, in many countries, the only people willing to publicly stand up to the terrorists and their infiltration of Europe are the hard core nationalists and nativists.
Even a breath of fresh air like France's Sarkozy has already demonstrated the limits of his committment. ...and he from a family of Holocaust survivors!
Yes yes yes. Anyone with past Nazi or neo-Nazi ties who talks the talk of resisting terrorism today deserves intense and critical scrutiny.
BUT
European politics being what it has long been, there may truly be NO ONE ELSE willing to stand up to the infiltration. ...until it's way, way too late.
The traditional ideology of the Nazis must be rejected at every turn but there may come a time to hold our noses and choose not to die.

230 Charles  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:56:54pm

re: #198 SlothB77

Already posted that earlier. Scroll down the front page.

231 Thanos  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:57:25pm

Can we stop with the RDS already -- it's a bit early for that to set in.

232 JammieWearingFool  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:58:10pm

ABC at Qualcomm: Can Someone Start Rioting Please?

Nothiing bad to report, in fact, not a whiff of a complaint in the story, but what's their headline?

How Long Will the Good Vibes Last at Qualcomm Stadium?

God, I despise these people.

233 Capt_Faust  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:58:13pm

re: #186 EtNorskTroll

LGF is as anti-jihad as anyone on the web; but I do not accept that we’ve reached the point where we should accept these kinds of people as allies, simply because they’re hitching a ride on the bandwagon and saying the right things when the spotlight is on them.
Now you are beginning to understand why Republicans cannot/will not accept Rudy Gulliani as the candidate for POTUS, Charles.

Abortion is way worse than racism (although both are interconnected--hatred causes killing) and the Republicans cannot accept this person as an allies, simply because he's hitching a ride on the bandwagon and saying the right things when the spotlight is upon him.

Can you kind of see it from that point of view, Charles?

?

~Norsk Troll


There are many reasons that I won't agree with Rudy for...and you've stated one of the reasons I won't vote for him in the primaries...

I also don't like the idea that both him and the MSM are busy in the process of redefining conservatism to fit Rudy's particular stance on political issues of the day.

Now if it was Rudy vs Commissar Clinton...I might have to begrudgingly vote for Rudy...cause the other would be so much worse...

But I'd seriously consider telling the rest of the GOP to go screw themselves with their ever increasing spending...if they needed me again and placed some sort of "moderate" on my ballot, I'll just write in Chuck Norris...

/rant off

234 jcm  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:58:35pm

re: #211 Pawn of the Oppressor

A corollary question is; would the Soviets have rebounded against Germany with out Lend/Lease and the material support of the US?

I contend it would have been unlikely. Russia spent itself stopping the German advance in the winter, but would not have been able to take the offensive and follow up with out the material aid.

235 Truumax  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:59:08pm

re: #205 so.cal.swede

I do still believe that there are a few neo-nazis left in the upper echelons in the party, and I'm not in any way trying to white-wash them. I absolutely loathe the creeps. But the party HAS grown a lot and changed to become more accepted by the mainstream, and a lot of the worst extremists have left the party to play with the people who are still openly neo-nazi.

236 Ghengis Khan  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:59:25pm

re: #223 EtNorskTroll

Um, no I won't support Nazi's fighting off Jihadists. I support people with moral ideals and truth fighting off Jihadists. If that ends up being only a handful of us, then we have alot on our plate. But there is no point in defeating one evil with another. But we can defeat evil with good instead.

237 Fenboy  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:59:44pm

Fascists throughout history has always adapted whatever viewpoints they believe will get them into power quickest. With the mainstream parties studiously ignoring the Islam issue, they see a vaccuum forming. I personally witnessed the BNP (which is still led by Nick "the holocaust was exaggerated for political gain" Griffin by the way) a couple of years ago pathetically trying to latch onto a rise in English nationalism caused by percieved Scottish dominance of the UK.

238 Yank in the EU  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:59:44pm

re: #206 BabbaZee

Take care of yourself, BabbaZee.

239 Jimmah  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:00:03pm

These guys are obviously overt Nazis who converted to being closet Nazis. What the fuck do we need them for? NOTHING! What is to be risked by associating with them? A FUCKING LOT!

Pleading on their behalf that maybe they've 'really' changed is stupid and POINTLESS.

240 MrAndMrsSmith  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:00:09pm

Re: #191 Charles

In fact, those pinheads despise me, and I wouldn't have it any other way -- because I've made it very clear over the years that they are not welcome here, and that I am not their fellow traveler.

Charles, I'd rather be correct and despised than be a lemming and wrong. Too many lemmings helped the Nazis nearly achieve their goals. And you're quite correct about "voters" and supporters. The GOP wasted little time getting rid of David Duke and his racist rhetoric and beliefs.

Any party that allows such people in it's ranks, and doesn't condemn them and remove them, is complicit in furthering such rhetoric.

241 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:00:12pm

re: #213 Red Sock

A few months ago there was a racist murder in Antwerp, and the Vlaams Belang quickly disassociate theirselves with the killers.



According to press reports, Van Themsche, while being treated in hospital, confessed to police – and allegedly to friends before committing the murder – to specifically targeting non-whites. Of the 2-year old (white) child, Van Themsche said she was "in the wrong place at the wrong time."[1] Her death however, was not incidental, since the rifle had to be reloaded before each next shot. The killer allegedly told his interrogators that "the presence near a black was sufficient reason" to kill the toddler.

Alleged responsibility of Vlaams Belang and its voters

The party's anti-immigrant rhetoric – and the fact that the gunman's aunt, Frieda Van Themsche, was a member of parliament for the party – boosts the association. In World War II, his grandfather, Karel Van Themsche, voluntarily fought on the side of his country's occupier, Nazi Germany, in Waffen SS uniform against the Soviets on the Eastern Front. The Antwerp public prosecutors said "on first investigation of his environment and family [Hans] seems not to be brought up in a racialist or violent setting".

That's what happens when Nazis raise Nazis.

242 stvip  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:00:13pm

re: #54 Ringo the Gringo

As I said today in an earlier post : For an anti-jihad movement to catch on in Europe it must include people from the groups that would be most threatened: religious Christians, Jews, homosexuals, artists, atheists, Muslim apostates, advocates of womens rights and non-Muslim immigrants who appreciate Western values.

Amen. Although it seems distant, the day will come when groups usually associated with the Liberal-Left sphere will realize the threat Islamism poses. Right now, they feel too secure. That's also one of the major problems in Israel (the first, viewing the prospect of Peace with a kind of atheistic Messianic fervor has mostly passed, and the public is nowadays much more skeptic): the Left tends to be way overconfident. They believe we can allow ourselves endless concessions and security compromises since, supposedly, a Israel protected by the IDF with US support is invulnerable (also, belittling the ability of Arabs to make long-term strategic plans). I cannot understand how anyone who has ever seen a map of the Middle East can hold those views, but it's popular.
Once those among the homosexuals, atheists, artists, etc. who currently oppose us start to feel the heat, they'll become Reborn Lizards.

243 Thanos  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:00:55pm

re: #235 Truumax

re: #205 so.cal.swede

I do still believe that there are a few neo-nazis left in the upper echelons in the party, and I'm not in any way trying to white-wash them. I absolutely loathe the creeps. But the party HAS grown a lot and changed to become more accepted by the mainstream, and a lot of the worst extremists have left the party to play with the people who are still openly neo-nazi.


Yes, we had that discussion last night -- it was ND that they moved to?

244 Occasional Reader  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:01:55pm

re: #213 Red Sock

And also keep in mind that there were quite a few racist Republican politicians in the past from the deep south in the US.

Charles' rule of thumb noted above is a good one. Try raising a swastika flag, or donning a KKK outfit at a GOP convention, and see what happens to you.

(Also, btw, the prototypical "deep South" racists tended to be Democrats, not Republicans. Think Robert Byrd.)

245 Spenser (with an S)  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:01:56pm

re: #186 EtNorskTroll

That's a very good point, but I'm not quite there with you yet. I see the good parts of W. Civ. being flushed further down the drain if Hillary wins. Add to that the fact abortion on demand until birth coming out a Dem congress to be signed by Hillary and voted constitutional by the next 4 justices she puts on the court and I see a nightmare if I don't pull the R lever. But your point has a clarity I enjoy.

246 Red Sock  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:02:29pm

re: #191 Charles

No, I cannot agree. A political party is nothing more than the sum of its supporters.

LGF is very anti-jihad, and for years I've been pointing out the dangers of Islamofascism. Yet you won't find any support for LGF at Stormfront. In fact, those pinheads despise me, and I wouldn't have it any other way -- because I've made it very clear over the years that they are not welcome here, and that I am not their fellow traveler. The fact that they support VB says that they don't feel the same rejection from them.

If someone can unfurl a White Power flag at a VB rally and not be immediately tossed out on their skinhead asses, that says something. And it's not good.


I don't know about the case with the White Power flag. Who says that some other supporters in the rally didn't attack the guy immediately? Who says that the police or the organisers didn't interfere? I know how the media works in Europe, even if there is one bald guy who looks like a skinhead in a 2000-men strong audience, they make a picture of that guy and put in on the front paper of their newspaper. Perhaps you are completely right, I just don't want to make a judgement immediately without knowing the full story.

On stromfront - count yourself lucky that they hate you. That's the way it should be, we hate them, they hate us. I didn't knew it was like that. But I do know that there is vast support for perfectly mainstream political parties on neonazi/extremist websites in Europe. Take Geert Wilders, a Dutch politican for example (you have made several posts about him!). He is a big supporter of Israel and the US, and very critical on Islam. But there are many right wing idiots who praise him in this country, some even post bomb letters to Muslim politicians and signing them with "a Geert Wilders supporter". And you have never heard Wilders say that it is OK to use violence, or that extremists are welcome in his party or as voters.

Does this make Wilders a dangerous madman, a neonazi?

Everything you say Charles makes perfect sense. I could be mistaken about Vlaams Belang and it's supporters. But I know from the situation in the Netherlands that you really can't judge a party when looking at the supporters - it would make every single party here extreme, dangerous etc.

247 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:02:30pm

#241 addendum: missing link...
Hans Van Themsche

248 EtNorskTroll  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:02:49pm

re: #222 Maine's Michael

re: #202 EtNorskTroll

Oh puleaze. Lighten up.

A lame joke, to be sure.

Norway has nothing very little to be proud of as regards WW2.

You've never heard of the "Heros of Telemark"?

If it wasn't for their contribution, Americans may have been speaking German today...

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

I humbly suggest you do some research before stating such as fact...

Americans owe Norwegians more than you know...

Et Norsk Troll

249 Ghengis Khan  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:03:43pm

Not to get overly Biblical, but part of the reason that things got screwed up for Ancient Isreal is that they let evil endure as long as it was seen to "aid" them in some way. God said, don't let those evil nations exist, I will help you to fight this war without them. But they didn't trust that God would be enough, and evil instead infiltrated their society.

WE USED THE TALIBAN TO FIGHT THE RUSSIANS!
Can't we see that that was a mistake? We should have been fighting that war ourselves.

250 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:03:55pm

re: #246 Red Sock

Who says that some other supporters in the rally didn't attack the guy immediately?


Now you're just making stuff up.

251 Truumax  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:04:14pm

re: #243 Thanos

ND (National Democrats), and a few others (NSF, National Socialistic Front for example).

Like I said, I am not trying to white-wash them, but at the same time, I think this is a case were we should stick to facts and not distort the issue.

Racists? Yes. Neo-nazis? Back then, yeah. Today, not really.

252 yochanan  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:04:57pm

100% in agreement with Charles Johnson on this one.

i remember when i got arrested fighting with Nazi's in smokier, IL. there were anti Semites on both sides of the picket line the commies who really wanted to fight the police and the Nazi scum.

the anti semitic left when they get in bed with the islmo fascists are in the same bed as david duke et al.

the problem is what happens when the shooting starts. if the neo Nazi's are shooting

different subject;
arsonist arrested in Cali question is
standard firebug or anarchist?

253 Suzette  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:04:59pm

re: #130 J.S.

re: #90 Ghengis Khan

Many historians will say that the turning point of WWII came at the Battle of Stalingrad. That was when the entire German Sixth army was surrounded and defeated. The Battle of Stalingrad is said to have been the bloodiest in human history. wiki article here:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

If I remember correctly the US started helping the Russians with supplies which helped turn the tide. It was a horrific battle.

254 Thanos  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:05:17pm

re: #249 Ghengis Khan

Not to get overly Biblical, but part of the reason that things got screwed up for Ancient Isreal is that they let evil endure as long as it was seen to "aid" them in some way. God said, don't let those evil nations exist, I will help you to fight this war without them. But they didn't trust that God would be enough, and evil instead infiltrated their society.

WE USED THE TALIBAN TO FIGHT THE RUSSIANS!
Can't we see that that was a mistake? We should have been fighting that war ourselves.


Now you are sounding Paulian.

255 Golem Akbar  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:05:31pm

re: #229 damnyanqui

BUT
European politics being what it has long been, there may truly be NO ONE ELSE willing to stand up to the infiltration

Can't agree. It may be too late, and Europe may indeed shift to a fascist response to Islamofascism, but it's not a good answer. It's not too late for that continent to do the right thing (in terms of not going to an extreme), and I don't think they need to "surrender" to a party with a troubled past just because no one else is offering any other kind of defiance.

There is still time for a measured democratic response. Maybe not much time, but still some time.

256 lawhawk  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:05:39pm

re: #232 JammieWearingFool

Naw, they simply found Mike Brown to comment on the job being done by the feds (this is the same Mike Brown all claimed was completely incompetent and a hired crony with no experience to manage FEMA, let alone FEMA during Hurricane Katrina). Yes, that's an expert I'd love to hear from. /sarc

257 mama winger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:05:46pm

re: #213 Red Sock

And also keep in mind that there were quite a few racist Republican politicians in the past from the deep south in the US. Made this the GOP those days racist, does it make the GOP a racist party right now?

I'm sorry, but those were Democrats.

258 scathach  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:06:31pm

Zionist the Younger #115

"Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for the home-born; for I am the LORD your God." - Leviticus 24:24,

Here is the key to all of what is being discussed on this issue. Believing that anyone is inferior to you or applying a different law to anyone because of race, creed, or color is WRONG and EVIL.

Therefore, I hate the Original Fascists and much as the Islamofascist. They are both Evil.

If you lay down with dogs, you get up with fleas. No thank you.

259 Red Sock  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:07:01pm

re: #228 Thanos

But the killer admitted it, and that he did it because his family belonged to VB. Let's not ommit facts.

True, but then again. What if, for example, a Christian extremist blows up an abortion centre because god told him, or because he said he learnt at home that abortion is wrong?

Does that make God a killer, a fanatic? Or his parents?

The same here with the VB. If the parents who belonged to the VB told their son it is OK to shoot foreign people we have to condemn it. Hell, that would be enough to ban the party immediately if that was the party line! But I don't thinkt the parents or the party are promoting violence.

260 ZionistYoungster  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:07:09pm

re: #244 Occasional Reader

OT, apropos of "Deep South": The South Rises, by Ed Lasky, on The American Thinker.

261 Highrise  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:07:11pm

re: #86 Thanos

Understand that Charles is taking a very large stand with this post. There are others out there in Blog land on the right who are saying we should forgive the past etc.

Support your lizard master, he might need it.

AMEN!

262 stvip  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:08:12pm

re: #90 Ghengis Khan

Are there any history theorists or WW2 buffs out there? Would we have been able to handle the war without the aid of the USSR?
I'm not saying anything by this, I am just curious what people who study it think.

Considering that the US was the sole player possessing nuclear weapons, and that it could most probably hold out an invasion long enough to finish developing them, it would certainly be possible.
Britain would likely fall, though, and it's also possible public pressure in the US would cause it to declare a cease-fire with Germany rather than eliminate entire swaths of Europe.
Ultimately, much smaller changes would possibly be the cause of wild, unpredictably different outcomes, so such a huge change in the course of history isn't something one can speculate about in anything close to terms of certainty.

263 EtNorskTroll  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:08:53pm

re: #236 Ghengis Khan

re: #223 EtNorskTroll

Um, no I won't support Nazi's fighting off Jihadists. I support people with moral ideals and truth fighting off Jihadists. If that ends up being only a handful of us, then we have alot on our plate. But there is no point in defeating one evil with another. But we can defeat evil with good instead.

Agreed.

But don't be too quick about calling other people your enemy when the chopping knife is being readied.

You will be hard pressed to find someone who hates the Nazi ideology more than me, but when the Islamofascists make their move for world dominance (and they will, TRUST ME), remember how you chose your friends....for they will be the only ones fighting with you.

Your enemies certainly won't.

~Norsk Troll

264 Capt_Faust  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:09:17pm

(Also, btw, the prototypical "deep South" racists tended to be Democrats, not Republicans. Think Robert Byrd.)


Bull Connor was a democrat...

not that I trust what wickipedia says...but here is a quick link.

Racist "Deep South" Democrat

265 Ghengis Khan  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:09:18pm

re: #254 Thanos

Wha? I don't know how things get so bent out of proportion in these threads. It is a perfectly valid statement to say that giving the Taliban weapons to fight the Russians might not have been a good idea. It is an extreme stretch of the imagination to then assume that I must support Ron Paul. Small steps guys.

266 Occasional Reader  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:09:21pm

re: #248 EtNorskTroll

You've never heard of the "Heros of Telemark"?

If it wasn't for their contribution, Americans may have been speaking German today...

That seems... a bit of stretch. As noted above, German research on the A-bomb was way off track anyway, with or without additional heavy water.

The Norwegians did, at least, fight back against the Nazis. The Scandanavians who should cough and try to change the subject when WWII comes up are the Swedes.

267 looking closely  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:09:29pm

re: #37 ted

OT:
Cndi doesn't notice the 500 pound pile of elephant dung in the room.

Rice: Mideast peace in jeopardy

By ANNE FLAHERTY, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 1 minute ago

WASHINGTON - Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said Wednesday that a "two-state solution" in the Middle East was in jeopardy and described a narrow window of opportunity to push Israel and the Palestinians toward peace.


What a crock of s@#$.

Rice is spouting the Palestinian "fire sale" talking points wholesale, I see.

With 60+ years of Arabs fighting Israel, *NOW* (when
"Palestine" is more fractured and dysfunctional than ever. . .and that's saying something) is the time for the narrow window of opportunity?

268 Ben Hur  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:10:32pm

re: #232 JammieWearingFool


That was pathetic.

269 Liam76  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:10:49pm

re: #187 Thanos

re: #121 Red Sock


A death camp is a death camp. There's no equivocation allowed, you either condemn it or you fucking don't.

Sorry, you lost me for the rest of your post there, whatever you said.

Now you know why people question Vlaams Belang and their supporters. There's no excuse for not condemning Nazism that's acceptable, and anything said after that is meaningless.

Bottom Line: it's just not very smart political strategy to keep yourself in a postion where you can be marginalized by a single phrase, no matter how much you support causes I might agree with you won't ever have my support.

If they didn't want to be labeled as Neo-Nazi's for being agains Islamic fanatics, wouldn't the wise choice be to condemn concentration camps?

This is a no brainer.

270 QueeQueeg  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:11:12pm

re: #242 stvip

re: #54 Ringo the Gringo

Amen. Although it seems distant, the day will come when groups usually associated with the Liberal-Left sphere will realize the threat Islamism poses.

They are already there, if only a small minority of the left. One of the best anti jihad blogs in the UK (harrysplace) is decidedly left leaning. As are several big name journalists. As is your recently adopted Christopher Hitchens. Unfortunately, they have been marginalised by the naive soft left and are constantly attacked by the hard left and their new found Islamist chums.

271 Maine's Michael  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:11:47pm

re: #248 EtNorskTroll

I read a book about this. It was a joint British-Norwegian effort IIRC. Lots of bravery all around.

As it turns out, however, Germany was on the wrong track with its atomic bomb desing. Even with all the heavy water in the world, they would not have had a working atom bomb.

272 Red Sock  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:12:15pm

re: #257 mama winger

I'm sorry, but those were Democrats.

OK, you could be right, I'm not American so not that aware of American history.

But the fact that there were Democratic racist around, doesn't mean the whole Democratic party was racist back then. That was my point.

But I guess whe all think the same about this issue. I hope people didn't misunderstood me. I would never work together with extremists, neonazi's, racist and the like. All I wanted to say is that there are good people walking around at the Vlaams Belang Party just like anyone of us, and also some great politicians critical of Islam, the left, socialism - and who are great supporters of Israel, of freedom, of equal rights.

But Charles is right that you must be careful when picking your friends, there is nothing wrong with that.

273 Capt_Faust  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:12:21pm

re: #260 ZionistYoungster

Nice catch on that article...

274 Ghengis Khan  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:12:25pm

The Kos kids are playing at detective again.

Was Rush Limbaugh's Auction a fake!?

crazies

275 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:12:39pm
276 Highrise  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:12:49pm

re: #246 Red Sock


But I know from the situation in the Netherlands that you really can't judge a party when looking at the supporters

Perhaps that is what is wrong. If you stand for nothing, you fall for anything. This can't judge a group due to the supporters is hogwash. You bet you can!

277 EtNorskTroll  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:12:56pm

re: #191 Charles

re: #121 Red Sock

If someone can unfurl a White Power flag at a VB rally and not be immediately tossed out on their skinhead asses, that says something. And it's not good.

Actually, it say A LOT!

I don't know....this is a very, very vexing problem.

Not sure that there are any easy answers.

Can't stand skinheads, can't stand standing by and watching the Islamofacists take over the world....

*sulk*

~ENT

278 Occasional Reader  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:12:57pm

re: #263 EtNorskTroll

But don't be too quick about calling other people your enemy when the chopping knife is being readied.

OTOH, if I were in charge of Islamofascist Global Strategery, I could think of no better strategy at this moment in dealing with counter-jihadism movements in the West, than to orchestrate their being lumped together with neo-Nazis, and thereby discredited.

279 Truumax  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:13:42pm

re: #263 EtNorskTroll

No, nazis, xenophobes, racists etc. will never be my allies. The war between civilizations be damned if I can't look myself in the mirror any more. They're the bad guys because I'm the good guy; I want it to remain that way.

I'm fully behind Charles on this one.

280 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:14:05pm

re: #134 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet

Perhaps with what Charles has posted the past 2 days at least Bat Y'eor might feel angry and speak out in anger?

I doubt that Pamela will ever admit that she was wrong.

281 mama winger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:14:05pm

re: #266 Occasional Reader

The Norwegians did, at least, fight back against the Nazis. The Scandanavians who should cough and try to change the subject when WWII comes up are the Swedes.

Exactly. My father in law was in the Swedish Navy. What a joke. I don't think he even learned how to use a weapon.

Turn west, Herr Arbeit, Norway is this way ........

282 EtNorskTroll  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:14:29pm

re: #266 Occasional Reader

re: #248 EtNorskTroll

You've never heard of the "Heros of Telemark"?

If it wasn't for their contribution, Americans may have been speaking German today...

That seems... a bit of stretch. As noted above, German research on the A-bomb was way off track anyway, with or without additional heavy water.

The Norwegians did, at least, fight back against the Nazis. The Scandanavians who should cough and try to change the subject when WWII comes up are the Swedes.

Damnable Swedes! (the WWII Swedes, that is)

Don't get me started.

Uff da....

~ENT

283 ZionistYoungster  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:15:04pm

re: #86 Thanos

Ditto that. And I should know: the past few days with my takes on racialism in Europe, on Gates of Vienna, I was in dilemma after dilemma. "Is this for sure?", "Could this alienate people needlessly?", "Maybe they're innocent of those charges", and so on.

'Twas ever so. For example, in my article from last March, which is now very relevant all of a sudden, you can see how careful I was with my wording, trying not to stamp a final seal (regarding the BNP and Vlaams Belang). I felt I just didn't have enough info to do that. I doubt I could even now post what Charles has posted.

An age of doubt, even for those who know what they stand for. But doubts, the metaphorical Amalek, are a fact of life until God does away with them (speedily in our days, amen).

284 Ghengis Khan  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:15:30pm

re: #279 Truumax

re: #263 EtNorskTroll

No, nazis, xenophobes, racists etc. will never be my allies. The war between civilizations be damned if I can't look myself in the mirror any more. They're the bad guys because I'm the good guy; I want it to remain that way.

I'm fully behind Charles on this one.

Since I keep being misunderstood (I've been told I support Ron Paul, and think Rudy is a Nazi already in this thread) let this stand as my statement as well. Unless someone is going to say that Truumax is a communist or something. Good God.

285 mama winger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:15:47pm

re: #282 EtNorskTroll

Damnable Swedes! (the WWII Swedes, that is)

Don't get me started.

Uff da....

~ENT

LOL! Skol!

286 Highrise  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:16:37pm

re: #280 NY Nana


I doubt that Pamela will ever admit that she was wrong.

Still no retraction. Most recent Update made that isn't flattering to lgf or Charles.

/sick

287 EtNorskTroll  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:16:42pm

re: #274 Ghengis Khan

The Kos kids are playing at detective again.

Was Rush Limbaugh's Auction a fake!?

crazies

*pops some popcorn*

Wait! Wait!

I'll be right there.....!

(I always love this show...)

~ENT

288 Maine's Michael  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:16:59pm

lots of bofors iron in the ww2 german war machine.

289 Occasional Reader  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:17:01pm

re: #265 Ghengis Khan

It is a perfectly valid statement to say that giving the Taliban weapons to fight the Russians

The Taliban, per se, did not exist at the time of the Soviet occupation.

290 Ghengis Khan  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:17:40pm

re: #289 Occasional Reader

re: #265 Ghengis Khan


It is a perfectly valid statement to say that giving the Taliban weapons to fight the Russians

The Taliban, per se, did not exist at the time of the Soviet occupation.

Ok... how about crazy muslim extremists? Can we call them that?

291 ziggyelman  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:17:56pm

OT:
A surprising article from the normally left wing Atlanta Journal-Constitution(Just now seeing it's from a few days ago)
Europe's fear of Muslims increases

[Link: www.ajc.com...]

292 cagney  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:18:15pm

re: #237 Fenboy

The BNP was up here in Scotland a few years back trying to stir up racial tensions in the aftermath of the Kris Donald murder.

293 Occasional Reader  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:19:39pm

re: #282 EtNorskTroll

Damnable Swedes!

Heh.

I once made the mistake of uttering what I thought to be a perfectly innocuous remark in front of a Norwegian woman, to the effect that "it's interesting that Norway has the higher per capita GDP, considering that Sweden appears to have a much better diversified economy." WOW, what a reaction that drew!

294 mama winger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:19:46pm

It is true that sometimes in war we make strange bedfellows. But their is strange , and there is
so-crazy-evil-that-it-is-going-to-get-the-whole-mo vement-discredited.

295 The world of fuzziness  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:19:47pm

re: #90 Ghengis Khan

Here is another link that talks in detail about the Lend-Lease program and its impact:

[Link: www.wargamer.com...]

“This brings forward the final question to be considered. Was Lend-Lease the factor that enabled the Soviets to win their war with Germany? A qualified yes. An examination of the types and volume of aid the Russians received very strongly supports this view. The enhancements to all aspects of Soviet mobility provided by large numbers of U.S. trucks can not be overstated. Most importantly, the Soviet logistics system was considerably augmented by the large numbers of trucks received. Each successive Soviet offensive launched in the second half of the war required longer and longer preparation times. This was primarily due to logistics difficulties caused by longer and longer lines of supply. Any serious reduction of the number of trucks available would have increased greatly the preparation time for each Soviet offensive.
Soviet ammunition shortages were almost entirely eliminated by Lend-Lease shipments of munitions. Were these shipments not made, ammunition supplies would have been an inordinately large factor in Soviet doctrine and planning. The resulting shortages of ammunition would certainly have led to even further delays of Russian offensives. Allied transfers of non-military items, such as food, enabled the Soviets to release large amounts of manpower for direct military use. This made it possible for the Russians to stave off manpower shortages until late in the war. All things considered without Lend-Lease the Soviet Union would probably have only been able to liberate its own territory by the time the Allies eventually defeated Germany.”

296 jcm  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:19:53pm

re: #287 EtNorskTroll

re: #274 Ghengis Khan

The Kos kids are playing at detective again.

Was Rush Limbaugh's Auction a fake!?

crazies

*pops some popcorn*

Wait! Wait!

I'll be right there.....!

(I always love this show...)

~ENT

Do Koskids have a brain?
Wait while I fire up the STM in the lab.

297 EtNorskTroll  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:20:01pm

re: #271 Maine's Michael

re: #248 EtNorskTroll

I read a book about this. It was a joint British-Norwegian effort IIRC. Lots of bravery all around.

As it turns out, however, Germany was on the wrong track with its atomic bomb design. Even with all the heavy water in the world, they would not have had a working atom bomb.

You're right. The British helped the Norwegians tremendously.

1. Thanks for pointing that out. Their efforts should never be forgotten...

2. They would have never had a working bomb?

Sure you wanted to find out?

I wouldn't.

~ENT

298 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:20:01pm
299 Charles  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:20:05pm

By the way, I see that the stalkers at lgfwatch are "applauding" my stance on this issue.

Since I know you're reading these comments, lgfwatch creeps, here's a message that I've carefully crafted just for you:

Fuck you.

300 Dianna  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:20:41pm

re: #249 Ghengis Khan

No, we didn't.

The Taliban didn't exist as an organized force until the Soviets withdrew.

301 mama winger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:20:48pm

re: #293 Occasional Reader

So, how much did it take cost you to get your teeth replaced?

302 EtNorskTroll  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:21:15pm

re: #293 Occasional Reader

re: #282 EtNorskTroll

Damnable Swedes!

Heh.

I once made the mistake of uttering what I thought to be a perfectly innocuous remark in front of a Norwegian woman, to the effect that "it's interesting that Norway has the higher per capita GDP, considering that Sweden appears to have a much better diversified economy." WOW, what a reaction that drew!

You may as well of called her a sleazy woman of the night, OR!

~ENT

303 Ben Hur  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:21:19pm

re: #291 ziggyelman

OT:
A surprising article from the normally left wing Atlanta Journal-Constitution(Just now seeing it's from a few days ago)
Europe's fear of Muslims increases

[Link: www.ajc.com...]

Fear of Muslims. Islamaphobia.

304 Ghengis Khan  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:21:25pm

re: #289 Occasional Reader

My main point, at any rate is simply that they are now very much considered our enemies. And although the liberals cherry pick this fact to use against the war, it is a perfect illustration of allying yourself with someone that doesn't support the ideals that you do. I don't want to finally rise from the smoldering dust of victory over radical Islam, to face a resurgent Nazi warmachine. Defeat evil once and for all! (Not that this is even possible in this world)

305 Jimmah  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:21:42pm

re: #278 Occasional Reader

re: #263 EtNorskTroll


But don't be too quick about calling other people your enemy when the chopping knife is being readied.

OTOH, if I were in charge of Islamofascist Global Strategery, I could think of no better strategy at this moment in dealing with counter-jihadism movements in the West, than to orchestrate their being lumped together with neo-Nazis, and thereby discredited.

Yep. Question to those who apologise for these creeps: What benefits exactly does associating with neo-nazis offer the anti-jihad movement?

Answers on a postcard, please.

306 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:21:43pm

re: #286 Highrise

/Shocka!

I will ask Killgore what to do when dumpster diving.

Killgore?

307 Render  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:22:51pm

Actually, most military historians agree that the Battle of Moscow was the turning point on the Eastern Front.

Moscow, at the time was the sole nexus point for all rail traffic in Soviet Russia. All railroads led to Moscow.

Had Moscow fallen, the Soviet attempt to relocate the bulk of their heavy industries East of the Ural mountains would have come to a grinding halt. As would any attempt by the Allies to supply the Soviets.

Sir Basil Liddell-Hart's "History of the Second World War" makes this point repeatedly.

John Erickson's "The Road to Stalingrad" reinforces that point on almost every single one of it's almost 600 pages.

===

Charles: Thank you. This is the right place, at the right time, for the right reasons.

SPACE
IN
TIME,
R

308 Maine's Michael  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:23:01pm

Charles, sometimes, only the f bomb is appropriate.

309 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:23:07pm

re: #299 Charles

Too polite.

310 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:23:20pm

re: #306 NY Nana

Yes, Ma'am?

311 Charles  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:23:27pm

I'm now being barraged with email from Sweden Democrats supporters.

312 Ben Hur  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:23:30pm

re: #293 Occasional Reader

re: #282 EtNorskTroll


Damnable Swedes!

Heh.

I once made the mistake of uttering what I thought to be a perfectly innocuous remark in front of a Norwegian woman, to the effect that "it's interesting that Norway has the higher per capita GDP, considering that Sweden appears to have a much better diversified economy." WOW, what a reaction that drew!


OR,

She probably looked at you funny because who just "utters" stuff like that to a women?!?

"Hi there! I heard that Norweigen women keep their men warmer than Swedish women do" would've gotten the reaction you were looking for.

313 lawhawk  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:23:39pm

OT:

Strange things on the TNR-Scottscam mess - Drudge pulled the pdfs... via hot air:

Update: Hmmm. The Drudge link still exists but the links to the documents don’t, and he’s removed the item from the front page. The Army documents look too real to have been forged but did he get snookered on the transcript?
Update: A cryptic post from K-Lo at the Corner: “We’re hearing from The New Republic that the Drudge story isn’t the damning evidence it suggests to be ... stay tuned.” They flipped the script!
Update (Bryan): I just rang up TNR’s offices and asked for Franklin Foer. He’s in a meeting at the moment. I wonder what it might be about.

Curiouser and curiouser.

314 Dianna  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:23:50pm

re: #272 Red Sock

What party did Lincoln represent?

Which party did Jefferson Davis represent?

The Democrats, right up through Lyndon Baneful Johnson, were an alliance of the Communists and the Ku Klux Klan.

315 MrAndMrsSmith  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:24:18pm

Re: #299 Charles

Indeed. Well put.

316 Maine's Michael  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:24:28pm

We need gays, Christians, ham lovers, Jews, and women's libbers on our side. Not freakin' Nazis.

317 Golem Akbar  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:24:32pm

re: #299 Charles

By the way, I see that the stalkers at lgfwatch are "applauding" my stance on this issue.

Since I know you're reading these comments, lgfwatch creeps, here's a message that I've carefully crafted just for you:

Fuck you.

You silver-tongued devil, you.

318 ZionistYoungster  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:24:34pm

re: #265 Ghengis Khan

Wha? I don't know how things get so bent out of proportion in these threads. It is a perfectly valid statement to say that giving the Taliban weapons to fight the Russians might not have been a good idea. It is an extreme stretch of the imagination to then assume that I must support Ron Paul. Small steps guys.

That's OK, I got called a Leftist for advocating culturalism over racialism.

Speaking of the US and the Afghan mujahideen in the 1980's... today, more than six years after 9/11, the president of the USA still doesn't get it about Islam; so why should the president then, even though one of the greatest, have gotten it right? The world was in the thick of the Cold War; apart from the Iranian Hostage Crisis, Islam wasn't on nearly anybody's radar (not mine, either). The mistakes regarding Islam during the Cold War are excusable; it's the mistakes now that are simply without any excuse.

319 Orde  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:25:06pm

Way to go Charles. First, you didn't jump to conclusions--you got more info. Then, when you found out the ugly associations you didn't cover over it for some other perceived pragmatic gain. Nor did you even ignore it and just stay silent on the whole thing. No, you exposed and disavowed such hate associations. Yet another example of integrity, credibility, and independent thinking. Thanks.

320 Render  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:25:25pm

re: #265 Ghengis Khan

We did not give the Taliban weapons to fight the Russians. For the simple reason that the Taliban did not exist when the Russians were driven from Afghanistan. Even had they existed at that time, it's highly unlikely they would have accepted anything from us.

Lose the Leftist talking points.

REALLY,
R

321 mama winger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:26:12pm

re: #311 Charles

I'm now being barraged with email from Sweden Democrats supporters.

I would like to ask them this:

1. What values are you fighting for?

2. Why are they important to you?

3. When has Sweden ever fought for values?

4. Why should we believe you?

322 Fenboy  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:26:18pm

re: #292 cagney

Like I said, any means necessary to get themselves into power. If hypocrisy is what it takes, well it does kind of come with the job description.

323 Ghengis Khan  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:26:21pm

Ha ha, part of the Kossock argument about the Rush Letter being "fake" is that there was only one buyer.
As opposed to an auction where lots of people won...

... was he supposed to sell it in pieces to be legitimate?

324 Red Sock  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:26:28pm

re: #311 Charles

The Swedish version of Ron Paul supporters?

They are worse than I thought!

325 EtNorskTroll  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:27:21pm

re: #299 Charles

By the way, I see that the stalkers at lgfwatch are "applauding" my stance on this issue.

Since I know you're reading these comments, lgfwatch creeps, here's a message that I've carefully crafted just for you:

Fuck you.

Sick.

So now they're trying to trap you as being a racist, Charles?

Sick, sick, sick.

Evil, actually.

ENT

326 Ben Hur  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:27:26pm

re: #322 Fenboy

How do you say "taquiya" in Svedish?

327 Iron Fist  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:27:44pm

re: #314 Dianna,

Nathan Bedford Forrest, the founder of the Ku Klux Klan was also a Democrat. So was Bull Connor and Orville Faubus. Indeed, with the exception of David Duke, it is hard to think of a famous racist that isn't a Democrat. Seggregation and the Democrats domination of the South went hand in hand.

328 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:27:45pm

re: #310 Killgore Trout

I am going to go dumpster diving on Pamela's blog, as Highrise already had undertaken the task, but I would like to see her gracious apology pouring fuel on the fire, and need to know what to wear..hazmat suit? Carry Purell™ ? Any suggestions?

329 msdixie  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:27:53pm

#214 Maine's Michael, you are so right. Hard left to hard right and back again. Extremism is the way of the world as we don't have the consciousness yet to walk the middle way.

I'm with Fjordman. Europe will either become islamic without a whimper or will have a civil war where gas, guns and bullets become way more precious than gold. It seems at this point there is too little energy from the groups like BNP and Vlaams Belang or any organization of other discontent folks for there to be civil war. So . . . islam does what islam does the best, jihad on all fronts.

330 debutaunt  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:28:00pm

re: #299 Charles
#299 Charles 10/24/07 1:20:05 pm reply quote report 11

By the way, I see that the stalkers at lgfwatch are "applauding" my stance on this issue.

Since I know you're reading these comments, lgfwatch creeps, here's a message that I've carefully crafted just for you:

Fuck you. Fuck you. Fuck you...

331 Duke6855  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:28:07pm

University Police cleared in taser incident

Good, the little punk got what he deserved - especially worth noting is their rationale for tase-ing.

332 MrAndMrsSmith  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:28:17pm

Re: #323 Ghengis

was he supposed to sell it in pieces to be legitimate?

Maybe they were hoping he'd shred it and sell it?

Paging Sandy Berger .....

333 WriterMom  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:28:22pm

Most awesome f-bomb EVAH, Charles.

334 Occasional Reader  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:28:37pm

#301 mama and #302 Norsk:

She was a fairly hot Norwegian woman, so I really didn't mind being the subject of her attention for a while, however hostile that intention was...

In any event, Sweden DOES have a more diversified economy than Norway. So there. She actually wound up saying "our GDP per capita is... TWICE that of Sweden!", and when I challenged her to bet money on that, she backed down.

(yes, we get into some truly wonky arguments here in DC)

335 Truumax  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:28:44pm

re: #311 Charles

I'm not surprised. They took 3% of the vote in our latest elections, which equals roughly... Two hundred and fifty thousand votes.

Like I tried to point out earlier, and in the other thread, most Sweden Democrat supporters are not racists. They won those votes pretty much by default simply by being the only party to even talk about reforming immigration. In the aftermath of the election you could see that they were completely unprepared for it.

But it doesn't change the fact that they were an openly racist party ten years ago. It doesn't change the fact that they were founded in the swedish white power movement. And it certainly doesn't change the fact that the other 97% of the swedish population still see them for what they really are; racist thugs.

336 Maine's Michael  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:29:07pm
"it's interesting that Norway has the higher per capita GDP, considering that Sweden appears to have a much better diversified economy." WOW, what a reaction that drew!

Not the smoothest line. So, like, did ya score anyway?

337 WriterMom  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:29:31pm

Can you 'up ding' more than once?

LOL.

338 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:29:32pm

re: #328 NY Nana

Dig in without gloves or antibiotics. It builds character and boosts the immune system. Enjoy!

339 Ghengis Khan  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:29:37pm

re: #320 Render

Geez, I used the wrong title for them. THE POINT IS THAT THEY WERE RADICAL ISLAMIC TROOPS THEN, AND WE ARE FIGHTING THEM NOW. By all means destroy them, go to war with them. (HINT, I'M NOT MAKING THE LIBERAL POINT HERE!). But lets not ever pretend they are on the same side as US. This goes for the Neo Nazi's too. I swear if I even use a word that liberals happen to use I get labeled like a can of soup.

340 mama winger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:29:48pm

re: #323 Ghengis Khan

There were multiple bidders, two going into the home stretch. Most people thought it would be prudent to stop at 2 mil. Can't say I blame them.

of course, the lefties couldn't come up with two cents between them, but let's not get picky.

341 Ben Hur  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:29:58pm

re: #327 Iron Fist

re: #314 Dianna,

Nathan Bedford Forrest, the founder of the Ku Klux Klan was also a Democrat. So was Bull Connor and Orville Faubus. Indeed, with the exception of David Duke, it is hard to think of a famous racist that isn't a Democrat. Seggregation and the Democrats domination of the South went hand in hand.

You mean to tell me that Forrest Gump REALLY WAS NAMED AFTER THE FOUNDER OF THE KKK?!?!?

It's my favorite movie! I literally know it by heart. I've even watched it on the Russian channel (Israel) where you can just make out the English in the background.

And that shit is TRUE!?!?!?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA!

342 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:30:17pm

re: #311 Charles

Nazi-gram for Charles!

343 WriterMom  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:30:19pm

re: #336 Maine's Michael

Leave it to you to get to the point. Did it get you laid-or not?

344 Golem Akbar  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:30:31pm

re: #325 EtNorskTroll

So now they're trying to trap you as being a racist, Charles?

Sick, sick, sick.

Evil, actually.

The left would rejoice at anyone professing anti-Islamicfascism who would ally themselves with the VB. I see no temptation.

345 nolocon  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:30:41pm

Sweden ...

hard to get warm and fuzzy about a country that couldn't figure out who the bad guys were in WWII.

346 Buckeye Abroad  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:30:56pm

#319 Orde

Yet another example of integrity, credibility, and independent thinking.

Charles for governor!

347 mama winger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:31:03pm

re: #339 Ghengis Khan

I understand what you were saying Genghis. Sometimes inflections and nuances are hard to pick up on a blog. No worries.

348 WriterMom  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:31:16pm

re: #334 Occasional Reader

So smooth.

Remind me to lend you my copy of "She's Just Not Into You".

349 Maine's Michael  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:31:17pm

re: #343 WriterMom

re: #336 Maine's Michael

Leave it to you to get to the point. Did it get you laid-or not?


Well, us yids are nothing if not practical.

350 ZionistYoungster  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:31:17pm

re: #299 Charles

Or to quote someone else:

Screw 'em!

351 Kenneth  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:31:33pm

I see a certain symmetry here, folks. Shortly after 9-11 a small and little known leftist group, the Workers World Party started organizing "peace marches" under their new front organization A.N.S.W.E.R. Using this false front as a "peace group" they have been able to infiltrate many other organizations which previously had studiously avoided them: peace groups, social activist church groups & the left wing of the Democratic Party. The Democratic party is now struggling with the influence of far left groups, in part alligned with the WWP and the various other front organizations they have infected, such as Democratic Underground, Daily KOS, etc.

The same kind of threat faces the anti-islamofascist groups now forming in Europe & North America. Instead of extreme leftist groups, the threat comes from extreme right groups with racist and xenophobic agendas. We must be very careful about who we associate with and who we allign with. To win the War on Islamo-Fascism, the West must unite the traditional democratic parties and organization whose values of freedom, democracy and human rights are incompatible with Islamism. Conservatives and true liberal democrats (as distinct from socialists) must to work together. Allowing racists & neo-nazi thugs under the umbrella of 'anti-islamofascism" will only serve to allienate the broader public and weaken our side.

Rather than rail against Charles for pointing out this danger, Pamela at Atlas Shrugged should have done her homework (she confessed to knowing nothing about these groups herself). The people who convened this conference too should do their homework and withdraw invitations to any and all groups with extremist or racist credentials.

352 Ghengis Khan  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:31:40pm

re: #347 mama winger

Thankyou.

353 MrAndMrsSmith  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:31:47pm

Re: #340

Two cents? The Left can't put together two brain cells amongst all of them, let alone come up with two cents. (Unless, iof course, the two cents is coming from taxpayers.)

The Left = IQ of two and it takes an IQ of three to grunt.

354 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:31:50pm

re: #326 Ben Hur

re: #322 Fenboy

How do you say "taquiya" in Svedish?


Dunno, but they probably sell it at IKEA.

355 bluegrass boy  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:31:55pm

re: #316 Maine's Michael

We need gays, Christians, ham lovers, Jews, and women's libbers on our side. Not freakin' Nazis.

just not the irish!

356 Muadib  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:31:55pm

re: #299 Charles

I agree

357 cagney  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:31:57pm

re: #322 Fenboy

IIRC Lee Barnes made pro Israel/anti hizbollah comments during the recent Lebanon conflict. Griffen later claimed Lee Barnes isn't a member of the BNP. Nice get out clause if it blows up in yer face.

358 Thanos  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:32:26pm

re: #259 Red Sock

re: #228 Thanos

But the killer admitted it, and that he did it because his family belonged to VB. Let's not ommit facts.

True, but then again. What if, for example, a Christian extremist blows up an abortion centre because god told him, or because he said he learnt at home that abortion is wrong?

Does that make God a killer, a fanatic? Or his parents?

The same here with the VB. If the parents who belonged to the VB told their son it is OK to shoot foreign people we have to condemn it. Hell, that would be enough to ban the party immediately if that was the party line! But I don't thinkt the parents or the party are promoting violence.

Do you recognize how close you sound to the apologists for Islamic extremists here? Or how close you sound to the left in the moral equivalence of Christianity with Islamofascism? Did you read last thread and the crazy youth defense of Bilal Bajaka and the Miami Jihadi?

GAZE

359 goodbye_natalie  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:32:36pm

Looks to me like we've got another Dukie rape case on our hands by the name of Jena 6. Here's the real truth to the story if you haven't read it:

Media myths about the Jena 6

Racism in America alive and well. But it may not be who you think...

360 WriterMom  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:32:38pm

re: #326 Ben Hur

I have no idea.

361 The Other Les  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:32:55pm

re: #342 Killgore Trout

re: #311 Charles

Nazi-gram for Charles!

You know it's not a proper Nazigram unless its delivered by someone in a brown shirt.

362 Ringo the Gringo  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:33:00pm

re: #311 Charles

I'm now being barraged with email from Sweden Democrats supporters.

Perhaps you can share some of the better examples with the rest of us later on.

363 msdixie  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:33:05pm

#314 Diana, Iron Fist is right. I was going to reply to you but he beat me to it. It was after the '60's when the racists in the South switched over to the GOP, thinking they'd find a home. Actually, I found more overt racism in the northeast when I lived there in the late '60's and '70's than there was in growing in Nashville. Boston was the worst of all. Not only were the Blacks hated, the different White ethnic groups hated each other.

364 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:33:14pm

re: #346 Buckeye Abroad

#319 Orde

Yet another example of integrity, credibility, and independent thinking.

Charles for governor!

Give LGF a state!

365 stvip  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:33:26pm

re: #316 Maine's Michael

We need gays, Christians, ham lovers, Jews, and women's libbers on our side. Not freakin' Nazis.

We also need Muslims. Sane ones.
Personally, I feel highly uncomfortable when people here attack Islam in general, rather than Islamism. Christianity had its destructive phase. Israel is being devoured from within by extremist religious factions. It can be cured. I'm sure there's a significant portion (obviously no reliable statistics exist) of Muslims who're sick of what they see around them.

(note that I'm not advocating an exclusively "winning hearts and minds" campaign - I believe that reform will require massive application of force, much like with Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany)

366 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:33:26pm

re: #351 Kenneth

Excellent analogy.

367 mama winger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:33:31pm

re: #334 Occasional Reader

(yes, we get into some truly wonky arguments here in DC)

That's OK. I examine dog poop for worms as my means of employment. I'm not one to judge. :)

368 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:33:36pm
369 nolocon  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:33:40pm

re: #355 bluegrass boy

re: #316 Maine's Michael


We need gays, Christians, ham lovers, Jews, and women's libbers on our side. Not freakin' Nazis.

just not the irish!

"'scuse me while I whip this out"

370 J.S.  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:33:48pm

I am finding articles about the Belgium V. Blok (yes, the party that was outlawed in Belgium.) the things I'm finding are not good. For example, here's an article from UPI (March 17, 2007):

BRUSSELS, March 17 (UPI) -- A former Belgian senator went on trial Friday for denying the Holocaust during an interview on Dutch television.

The court watched Roeland Raes' interview and then adjourned until June 15, Expatica reports.

Raes, a leader in the Flemish nationalist party Vlaams Blok -- which has since been reconstituted as the Vlaams Belang -- was interviewed because he had ties to a similar Dutch group. On television, he suggested that Anne Frank's diary was faked and said the Nazis did not operate death or concentration camps, just very poorly run work camps.

371 WriterMom  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:33:49pm

re: #345 nolocon

Bbbut...but...they were neutral!

372 opnion  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:33:57pm

Wait wait! Use these Nazis as Shock Troops against the terrorists.
That way you could not lose.You could actually pull for both sides to succeed.

373 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:34:00pm

re: #338 Killgore Trout

Thank you, oh Wise Man!

If I do not post in the next 10 minutes? Please send out a search party.

374 Occasional Reader  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:34:07pm

re: #304 Ghengis Khan

My main point, at any rate is simply that they are now very much considered our enemies. And although the liberals cherry pick this fact to use against the war, it is a perfect illustration of allying yourself with someone that doesn't support the ideals that you do.

I actually think that supplying the mujaheddin against the USSR was a good idea. It's plain nuts to say "WE should have waging that war" (i.e., deployed US troops directly in Afghanistan to push the Soviets back), because that very likely would have led to nuclear war. Giving some training and Stingers to islamist nuts in order to bring down the bloodiest empire in modern history was worth it. (The problem was in how we managed (or ignored) things in Afghanistan AFTER the Soviet collapse.) Yes, in the real world, you sometimes DO have to cut deals with bad people in order to fight a greater evil.

But we are nowhere NEAR that point with respect to neo-Nazis and islamofascists; in fact, as noted above, nothing can be worse for anti-jihadist movements than to be associated with these scumbags.

375 yochanan  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:34:09pm

frankly i think it is time for Jews to get the f&*( out of euroland. I don't see anything good happening in the future.

It will be bad enough here with all the leftist dhimmi.

376 Render  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:34:16pm

re: #339 Ghengis Khan

:) Understood.

But the Northern Alliance wasn't exactly what we would today call "Islamic radicals."

That's why the Taliban/al-Q assassinated the NA's leader on 9/10/01.

HANG
IN,
R

377 debutaunt  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:34:36pm

re: #342 Killgore Trout
#342 Killgore Trout 10/24/07 1:30:17 pm reply quote report 0

re: #311 Charles

Nazi-gram for Charles!


HAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAHAA

378 bulwrk  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:34:41pm

re: #355 bluegrass boy

say what

379 Ringo the Gringo  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:34:45pm

Where's fjordman?

380 mama winger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:35:06pm

re: #354 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

re: #326 Ben Hur

re: #322 Fenboy

How do you say "taquiya" in Svedish?


Dunno, but they probably sell it at IKEA.

LOL!

381 Rust Never Sleeps  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:35:14pm

Charles,

I live in Flanders (and I'm sure you can check that). I'm not a member of the Vlaams Belang, and I have never voted for them. I have no intention to vote for them in the future.

However...
1) I'm not too sure that the Vlaams Belang and the Sweden democrats belong in the same category.
2) On exhibit 2: These are not Vlaams Belang flags. They are simply Flemish flags - except for the Nazi flag, of course. Any one in Flanders might carry this flag.
In other words, was this a Vlaams Belang rally? I've no knowledge of a rally, exclusively for Vlaams Belang members in recent time. The website you linked to, a leftist website I might add, doesn't give any prove.
However, right wing extremists en neo-Nazi’s flock around the Vlaams Belang. In the past, people have been thrown out of the party for propagating Nazi-ideas
3) On exhibit 3: The fact that some American Nazi groups 'love' the Vlaams Belang doesn't prove very much. Those same groups hate Obama. Does that mean every LG Fer in America should vote for Obama?
4) On exhibit 1: It is true that in Europe, the Holocaust is used as a propaganda tool against the Vlaams Belang, and even against ‘Islamophobia’. Year after year, schools screen ‘Schindler’s List’. There is not wrong with this movie, but teacher, and official government brochures (!) ‘explain’ that this movie is: “in the first place a warning against parties like the Vlaams Belang, and against the hatred against OTHER groups, like North-African and Turkish immigrants.”
That doesn't mean that abstaining from this particular vote was wise.
(On the other hand, the relationship between the Jewish community in Antwerp and the Vlaams Belang aren't particularly bad, on the contrary. )

382 hous bin pharteen  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:35:26pm

....In true Lizard fashion. We must denounce such nonsense.
Our weapons are sarcasm and ridicule.

So in that spirit, I give you this clip from one of the 10 best movies evva.

"I hate Illinois Nazi's"

383 mama winger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:35:58pm

re: #379 Ringo the Gringo

Where's fjordman?

Three sheets to the wind in some Swedish bar .

384 Buckeye Abroad  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:36:02pm

#364 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Give LGF a state!

Death to high taxes! Repeal the 17th Amendment!

385 Occasional Reader  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:36:32pm

re: #312 Ben Hur

She probably looked at you funny because who just "utters" stuff like that to a women?!?

At DC dinner parties, comparisons of per capita GDP actually constitute smooth talking. Sometimes.

(Anyway, while she was hot, I was not looking for anything more from her, and in fact kind of liked getting her riled up... I didn't particularly like her, and was there with a date anyway.)

386 marwan's daughter  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:36:52pm

To the Sweden Democrat supporters and the equally creepy lgfwatch fools:
Fuck off and die.

Truumark, can you translate that into Swedish?

387 experiencedtraveller  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:36:59pm

re: #299 Charles

No no dear Charles. Always take the high ground (even with lowlifes). No F word.

388 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:37:17pm

re: #369 nolocon

re: #355 bluegrass boy

re: #316 Maine's Michael


We need gays, Christians, ham lovers, Jews, and women's libbers on our side. Not freakin' Nazis.


just not the irish!

"'scuse me while I whip this out"

"Thank you for that fine example of authentic frontier jibberish!"

389 Ben Hur  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:37:35pm

re: #376 Render

re: #339 Ghengis Khan

:) Understood.

But the Northern Alliance wasn't exactly what we would today call "Islamic radicals."

That's why the Taliban/al-Q assassinated the NA's leader on 9/10/01.

HANG
IN,
R

You know that the NA was Iran's bitch.

Just don't ask me to prove it!

390 Ghengis Khan  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:37:40pm

The Hillbilly liberal "defeats the right in 3 minutes." This is thier argument that the Limbaugh auction was fake... Brilliant.

Beat the right in 3 minutes


p.s. this is why lefty talk radio never makes money.

391 bluegrass boy  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:37:57pm

re: #369 nolocon

re: #355 bluegrass boy

re: #316 Maine's Michael


We need gays, Christians, ham lovers, Jews, and women's libbers on our side. Not freakin' Nazis.


just not the irish!

"'scuse me while I whip this out"

they said you was hung!

392 ZionistYoungster  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:38:01pm

re: #351 Kenneth

I encountered quite a few Daily Kos diaries complaining about the hijacking of anti-Iraq-war demonstrations by the likes of the "Free Palestine" crowd and the 9/11 Troofers.

Not that I have any sympathy with the anti-Iraq-war protesters (US-hating, often troop-hating, sickos), but it just goes to show you what a big problem hijacking can be.

393 Roger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:38:16pm

re: #311 Charles

Please give us an indication of style; I've been waiting to learn about the tone in the inevitable emails[provided they are from actual members of the Sweden Democrats].

394 EtNorskTroll  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:38:21pm

re: #354 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey


"lögner"


For you to pronounce it properly, I'd have to pull your tongue out, BeerDrinking.

~Norsk Troll

395 Truumax  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:38:30pm

re: #386 marwan's daughter

Truumark?

There is no literal translation for "fuck off" in swedish, but a good substitute would be "go to hell", so...

"Far åt helvete och dö."

396 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:38:38pm

re: #379 Ringo the Gringo

Where's fjordman?

Pining for the fjords?
/someone had to say it

397 Truumax  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:39:32pm

re: #395 Truumax

gah, can't use my fancy swedish letters... sorry, then my hands are tied

398 Highrise  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:39:49pm

re: #328 NY Nana


Did you SEE her latest update?

I didn't see it until Charles pointed it out. I thought the first update was a snark slap in the face but then the 2nd one....can't get more blatant than that. And I'm glad that Charles isn't going to lay down to this crap.

399 Ben Hur  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:39:55pm

re: #385 Occasional Reader

re: #312 Ben Hur


She probably looked at you funny because who just "utters" stuff like that to a women?!?

At DC dinner parties, comparisons of per capita GDP actually constitute smooth talking. Sometimes.

(Anyway, while she was hot, I was not looking for anything more from her, and in fact kind of liked getting her riled up... I didn't particularly like her, and was there with a date anyway.)


Probably a Swedish chick.

400 Maine's Michael  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:40:06pm

re: #365 stvip

Israel is being devoured from within by extremist religious factions.

Why ruin a perfectly good post with a shitty, false line like that?

It is secular indifference, post zionist education, and narcissism that is hollowing out Israel.

401 EtNorskTroll  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:40:07pm

re: #379 Ringo the Gringo

Where's fjordman?

Who needs a "Frordman" when you've got a "Norsk Trol", Ringo?

*Is this the American way of 'dissing' someone?*

~ENT

402 Occasional Reader  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:40:28pm

re: #348 WriterMom

re: #334 Occasional Reader

So smooth.

Remind me to lend you my copy of "She's Just Not Into You".

I absolutely wow 'em when I talk about secured transactions law reform in Andean countries. It's like Spanish Fly.

(Okay, I'm married now, so all this stuff is in the past, you understand)

403 Golem Akbar  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:41:30pm

re: #365 stvip

re: #316 Maine's Michael


We need gays, Christians, ham lovers, Jews, and women's libbers on our side. Not freakin' Nazis.

We also need Muslims. Sane ones.
Personally, I feel highly uncomfortable when people here attack Islam in general, rather than Islamism. Christianity had its destructive phase. Israel is being devoured from within by extremist religious factions. It can be cured. I'm sure there's a significant portion (obviously no reliable statistics exist) of Muslims who're sick of what they see around them.

(note that I'm not advocating an exclusively "winning hearts and minds" campaign - I believe that reform will require massive application of force, much like with Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany)


It's really just common sense. I believe most Muslims would be happy to denounce Islamofascism except for their fear of retaliation from the militant minority in their ranks. Some rhetoric by a few of the posters here gets close to the line, some may be even over the line. But I seriously doubt there are any real fascist/racists on LGF, since Charles would hit them with the banning stick so fast their skinheads would explode.

404 debutaunt  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:41:53pm

#383 mama winger 10/24/07 1:35:58 pm reply quote report 0

re: #379 Ringo the Gringo

Where's fjordman?

Three sheets to the wind in some Swedish bar .


He's really pining.re: #383 mama winger

405 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:41:58pm

re: #402 Occasional Reader

re: #348 WriterMom

re: #334 Occasional Reader

So smooth.

Remind me to lend you my copy of "She's Just Not Into You".

I absolutely wow 'em when I talk about secured transactions law reform in Andean countries. It's like Spanish Fly.

(Okay, I'm married now, so all this stuff is in the past, you understand)

Don't hold back, I need all the pick-up lines I can get!

406 mama winger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:41:59pm

re: #402 Occasional Reader

I never get to first base talking about tapeworms. You're lucky.

407 Golem Akbar  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:42:39pm

re: #387 experiencedtraveller

re: #299 Charles

No no dear Charles. Always take the high ground (even with lowlifes). No F word.

I don't agree. There's a time for it, and it was applied perfectly, timely.

408 Buckeye Abroad  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:42:42pm

#381 Rust Never Sleeps

Thanks for posting that. As an Yank who has been around the block I know how what is interpruted from media and blogs is sometimes not even close to the reality on the ground or what transpired to even lead up to the current events in the first place.

409 The Other Les  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:42:51pm

re: #387 experiencedtraveller

re: #299 Charles

No no dear Charles. Always take the high ground (even with lowlifes). No F word.

I usually say "piss off" for that sort of thing.

410 Kenneth  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:43:00pm

As a very wise woman once said,

"All extremist ideologies meet at Jew-Hating Station"

411 Ben Hur  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:43:03pm
412 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:43:05pm

re: #406 mama winger

re: #402 Occasional Reader

I never get to first base talking about tapeworms.

I'd worry if you did.

413 EtNorskTroll  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:43:06pm

re: #386 marwan's daughter

To the Sweden Democrat supporters and the equally creepy lgfwatch fools:
Fuck off and die.

Truumark, can you translate that into Swedish?

"Dra til djeveln" is pretty close and you don't have to use the fancy Swedish letters to get your point across.

*WARNING*

Very, very offensive.

Be wise.

~Norsk Troll

414 Occasional Reader  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:43:15pm

re: #399 Ben Hur

Probably a Swedish chick.

Peruvian, actually. Had she been Swedish, I'm sure a Swede-on-Norwegian hairpulling, dress-ripping catfight would have ensued.

[dreamy sigh]

415 Maine's Michael  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:43:47pm

re: #402 Occasional Reader

It's like Spanish Fly.

Does that stuff work?

416 ZionistYoungster  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:43:49pm

re: #379 Ringo the Gringo

Where's fjordman?

Don't know where he is, but I just have to say this: He's a good man trying to lead one of the most difficult areas of this fight.

I feel bad for having been hard on him lately. There were some real scumbags posting on those Gates of Vienna threads where it started, but Fjordman isn't part of those. It's just that Europe is in a terrible jam, and he has to address all the issues there. Issues I now see I don't have sufficient understanding of.

417 nolocon  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:43:49pm

OT

Breast cancer often untreated in Mideast
RIYADH, Saudi Arabia - One Saudi woman ignored the cancer growing in her breast because she didn't want to risk a referral to a male doctor. Another was divorced by her husband on the mere suspicion she had the disease, while a third was dragged away from a mammogram machine because the technicians were men.

That whacky 8th Century at work again.

418 WriterMom  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:43:50pm

re: #410 Kenneth

Oooh-who was that?

419 commander_vimes  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:43:56pm

re: #388 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

re: #369 nolocon

re: #355 bluegrass boy

re: #316 Maine's Michael


We need gays, Christians, ham lovers, Jews, and women's libbers on our side. Not freakin' Nazis.


just not the irish!

"'scuse me while I whip this out"

"Thank you for that fine example of authentic frontier jibberish!"

"Howard Johnson is right!"

420 JohnAnnArbor  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:44:15pm

I think Kenneth at #351 is on the right track. Small, weird, and sometimes really bad groups will take any opportunity to expand their reach, as WWP did with ANSWER. It's important that they be exposed.

421 mama winger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:44:22pm

re: #412 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

re: #406 mama winger

re: #402 Occasional Reader

I never get to first base talking about tapeworms.

I'd worry if you did.

Good point.

422 Truumax  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:44:28pm

re: #393 Roger

My guess is actually that the E-mails he's receiving are well-written and toned down. Like I said, most SD supporters aren't nazis or racists. They are simply people who voted for some shady bad guys because they were the only ones who weren't upholding the status quo on immigration. They receive support by default, from ordinary people who can't tell them for what they are. And like I've stated numerous times: The Sweden Democrats of today is not a neo-nazi party. They're a xenophobic party with a neo-nazi past.

Doesn't change the fact that I think they're vile racist morons.

423 Ringo the Gringo  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:44:32pm

re: #316 Maine's Michael

We need gays, Christians, ham lovers, Jews, and women's libbers on our side. Not freakin' Nazis.

And drinkers!..Don't forget the drinkers; they're a natural alley.

424 MrAndMrsSmith  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:44:33pm

Re: #407 Golem

We concur. There is a time to be nice and polite, and then there are times where the specific words -- avoiding any ambiguity -- are called for, and Charles was spot on in doing just that.

425 Ben Hur  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:44:44pm

re: #411 Ben Hur

Technoviking

That man is my new idol.

426 WriterMom  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:44:57pm

re: #417 nolocon

Hmmm. I'm sure Mrs. Bush brought that up on her Breast Cancer Mission to Jihadiland.

427 scathach  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:45:15pm

Charles:

Strongly suggest you respond with:

I HATE Fascists whether they be of the Nazi or Islamo variety.

Even in this day and age, surely no one could object to that stance.

(Waiting for condemnation from CAIR for some reason in 5, 4, 3....)

428 jcm  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:45:30pm

re: #299 Charles

By the way, I see that the stalkers at lgfwatch are "applauding" my stance on this issue.

Since I know you're reading these comments, lgfwatch creeps, here's a message that I've carefully crafted just for you:

Fuck you.

The Lizard Speaks

429 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:46:36pm
430 MrAndMrsSmith  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:47:22pm

Re: #428 jcm

ROFLMAO!

431 mama winger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:47:25pm

re: #429 taxfreekiller

We have this big old ranch down here in Texas, we have a 2 mile fence on the east side of them in west Texas, the Waggoner Ranch, the DDDD brand.

so, in honor of Dickless Drubin's Dream Donk

Yo, dickless, your DDDD bill got dunked, to bad so sad.

yours true ,
taxfreekiller
see you in the election in 2008 ass wipe

You should work for Hallmark , tfk. You have a gift :)

432 Occasional Reader  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:47:37pm

re: #423 Ringo the Gringo

re: #316 Maine's Michael


We need gays, Christians, ham lovers, Jews, and women's libbers on our side. Not freakin' Nazis.

And drinkers!..Don't forget the drinkers; they're a natural alley.

We need an anti-jihad coat of arms... something like a beer bottle rampant, over a field of prosciutto.

433 Charles  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:47:39pm

re: #381 Rust Never Sleeps

In other words, was this a Vlaams Belang rally? I've no knowledge of a rally, exclusively for Vlaams Belang members in recent time. The website you linked to, a leftist website I might add, doesn't give any prove.

Follow the links at the blog. It was definitely a Vlaams Belang rally.

434 Buckeye Abroad  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:47:42pm

#400 Maine's Michael

It is secular indifference, post zionist education, and narcissism that is hollowing out Israel.

Sounds like the same disease killing off the rest of the west.

435 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:47:45pm

I can't believe Maine's Michael is ragging on Norway when the Norwegian language has enriched the American-English language with two descriptive words. Fjord, and Quisling.

436 Truumax  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:48:13pm

re: #413 EtNorskTroll

That's a norwegian insult though, doesn't really work in swedish ;)

And I could get around the letters too, but I don't want to pull out the really vile swedish insults.

437 Golem Akbar  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:48:16pm

I'll bet the stalkers at lgfwatch are also pissed off (jealous) at Charles for his stellar radio interview.

438 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:48:19pm

re: #398 Highrise

It is even worse. She apparently added this smack at Charles later. It is a new link on the original post. She had to really look for that one.

439 Defeater of Defeatism  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:48:42pm

Just to be clear, I'm on the fence here in many aspects. I moved to Belgium a few years ago for work-related reasons - originally, I'm Dutch (from Holland). I can vote in both countries but have so far only chosen to do so in Dutch elections, since there's nothing for me to feel aligned to in terms of Belgian political parties or initiatives. It is a very complex and artificial kind of country in many aspects. Only after these few years have I come to understand and somewhat accept the complexicity that is Belgian politics.

First of all: yes, there's a lot of freaks and monsters hanging out in VB's corridors and side alleys. Not denying it. The party has had a very shady past full of vitriolic nationalism edging towards or even simply aligned with neonazis (and their sympatizers). As a result of this, and because of a few of the "old elite" still pulling some wires here and there, the party remains a refuge for anyone who hates anything for no other reason than hatred itself. This includes Jew-haters and relentless Islam-bashers alike, btw. Just getting this out of the way before I'll get branded as a VB symphatizer.

Secondly: you'll have to realize what made the party so popular. VB started off as a small splinter party, largely keeping itself occupied with, well, hating people a lot - one of their spearheads has always been a tough immigration policy as a result of this. Naturally, none of the other parties wanted to touch VB with a 10ft. pole back then.

However, to ensure a complete excommunication of VB, the remaining political parties decided to impose a so-called "cordon sanitaire" policy upon VB and themselves. This meant that, under no circumstances whatsoever, should VB ever be allowed to gain control of (district/federal) government policies. The other parties would join hands whenever needed to reach the majority vote numbers. As a result, you'd see lefties reluctantly deal with Christians and liberals governing the state with the aid of socialists (mind you, two very opposite tips of the scale around here). Anything to keep VB out, right?

Thirdly, however, there's the mother of all rubs - Belgium never was a real country to begin with. You'd feel hardpressed to meet someone who truly will describe him/herself as "Belgian". Most will feel Flemish or Walloon or even Bruxellian rather than Belgian. The three parts out of which the country consists have little in common with one another other than geographical convenience. Yet the political system relies on a national unity, with Flemish and Wallonian political parties governing as a whole. There's a Flemish socialist party, there's a Wallonian one. There's a Francophone liberal party as much as there's the VLD, its Flemish counterpart. In the national government, these counterparts act as one.

Ironically so, VB is a "nationalist" party that wants Flanders to cecede from Belgium and form its own state. There is a Wallonian counterpart, FN, but besides the fact that they're a very marginal party (much like VB once was), they're opposed to everything VB wants - the only thing these two parties would agree upon is the splitting-up of Belgium into two or three seperate states. Thus creating a situation where two opposing parties would govern a nation only to disband it right after the fact (a situation most likely disallowed by national law). To sum it up, VB has no real voice in the current national political system of Belgium regardless of anything - it's a Flemish party above all.

Due to the abovementioned lack of national identity, many Flemish voters feel inclined to at least downgrade the level of connectivity to the French-speaking part (and the federal government in Brussels) one way or the other. None of the non-VB parties dare dream of blowing up Belgium as a nation, given the fact that it would give VB and the likes a strong hand in an independant Flanders, thus creating the very paradoxical situation of actually aiding VB in its search for "the angry voter".

440 Occasional Reader  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:48:44pm

re: #415 Maine's Michael

re: #402 Occasional Reader


It's like Spanish Fly.

Does that stuff work?

No idea.

I seem to recall reading something about it years ago... apparently it's really very nasty stuff, and can send a young woman to the emergency room, or worse.

441 stvip  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:49:21pm

re: #400 Maine's Michael

re: #365 stvip

Israel is being devoured from within by extremist religious factions.

Why ruin a perfectly good post with a shitty, false line like that?

It is secular indifference, post zionist education, and narcissism that is hollowing out Israel.

Well, do you live in Israel? If not, how closely do you follow the news?

Who do you think fought and died in the 2006 Lebanon War? Mostly the supposedly indifferent, narcissistic post-Zionist seculars. Just like in previous wars. Kibbutz residents were highly over-represented amongst the fighting and the dead.

Conversely, we have a major problem with anti-democratic factions here.

Are these facts under dispute, or do you disagree with me pointing them out, or what? If you have counterpoints, I'll be happy to hear them out, and debate the matter.

442 Maine's Michael  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:49:52pm

re: #440 Occasional Reader

Too bad. I'm not really up to snuff on my Andean Trade Theory.

443 goodbye_natalie  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:50:32pm

Adding to Charles' #299 comment:

By the way, I see that the stalkers at lgfwatch are "applauding" Charles' stance on this issue.

Since we know you're reading these comments, lgfwatch creeps weirdos, stalkers, and other deviants, here's a message question that I've carefully crafted just for you:

Has Carol Herman joined up yet moving your vast audience to a baker's dozen?

444 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:51:00pm

re: #440 Occasional Reader

re: #415 Maine's Michael

re: #402 Occasional Reader


It's like Spanish Fly.


Does that stuff work?

No idea.

I
seem to recall reading something about it years ago... apparently it's
really very nasty stuff, and can send a young woman to the emergency
room, or worse.

You're supposed to give it to the girl? No wonder I keep striking out!

445 bluegrass boy  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:51:01pm

re: #419 commander_vimes

re: #388 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

re: #369 nolocon

re: #355 bluegrass boy

re: #316 Maine's Michael


We need gays, Christians, ham lovers, Jews, and women's libbers on our side. Not freakin' Nazis.


just not the irish!

"'scuse me while I whip this out"

"Thank you for that fine example of authentic frontier jibberish!"

"Howard Johnson is right!"

allow me to extend to you a laurel and hardy welcome to the conversation

446 Defeater of Defeatism  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:51:39pm

Which takes me to point nr. 4: said "angry voter". The common (wo)man, they guy (gal) around the corner with whom you play football or drink a beer. The guy who feels depressed with having to pay triple taxes to fund trilingual government instances, also the guy who himself might feel proud of Flanders while despising what has happened in its larger cities (Antwerp, Ghent to name a few). The guy who'd the MSM will gladly dub a Belgian equivalent of your "rednecks" just because he wants his government to control the influx of immigrants - the same guy shunned by leftists and utopians alike for his rejection of the EU running the show within his nation's borders.

This guy (or gal) has seen politics in Belgium going on for decades now, and the country's stability hasn't exactly improved over time. He or she knows about the potentially powerful role of Flandres as an independant economy, completely discarded due to the fact that Wallonia is eating up Flemish budgets. This (wo)man is facing a reality in which he can either vote for the existing bunch of grey mass, evermore forced to cooperate and comprimise on their political ideas due to the increasing popularity of VB... or (s)he can vote for exactly the opposite (as others before him), namely VB - a seperate state of Flanders, tough immigration policies and less meddling-about regarding the EU.

Number 5: it's a "choice" every "Belgian" _has_ to make. Voting is not a privilege for native Belgians, it's mandatory by law (heh, finally me being Dutch in Belgium pays off - none of that bollocks for me). This fact alone is a reason for some voters to mess things up and put VB up on an even higher horse - just to cause more troubles regarding the "cordon sanitaire" and its stubborness in pursuing the national laws and regulations with which so many Flandriens are fed up. The possibility of VB reaching a majority vote in the districtional elections would break the coalition, which by itself is reason enough for people to vote for VB (or rather, against the alternatives).

Point nr. 6: VB has evolved over time into a relatively "normal" rightwing party. As mentioned in my previous post, it's still haunted by its past and even some of its present members/actions (example: IJzerwake) but the core policies has lost if rough edges as time progressed.

By excluding VB from the start, perhaps a noble thought at first, the remaining parties have basically sealed the fate of Belgium as a nation. We've already seen rather drastic measures being put into place to prevent VB from gathering the majority vote in Flanders, such as allowing relatively-fresh immigrants to vote in Antwerp - allowing the socialist party to take control over the city by a slim margin. Stunts like these only fuel the fire of division between the government and large parts of its people.

Should VB have been allowed to be part of any government coalition in its early stages a very hypothetical situation, mind you), it would have been a short-lived story with VB being disbanded in a matter of months - it was a mess in there. By now, largely thanks to the cordon sanitaire, the party has learned to structurize itself and tone down a bit in both media appearances and proposed policies, making it impossible to get rid off altogether.

Aren't there any alternatives? Well, it's not easy competing with the traditional contigencies (socialists, liberals, greens, Christians/agrarians and all that), but at least some iniatatives have been undertaken and so last year Mr. DeDecker launched Lijst DeDecker as something of an alternative to VB. It's a mid-rightwing, classical-liberal party also aiming for an independant Flanders without the dubious past.

So all in all, things are never clear-cut in Belgium, if there ever was such a nation. I've enjoyed your insights Charles, as I hope you did for mine :).

447 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:52:30pm

re: #426 WriterMom

I imagine that she did not feel the need to visit Israel.

Israel is so advanced in treatment that she might have learned something. Eleanor Roosevelt she ain't.

448 Kenneth  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:53:06pm

re: #415 Maine's Michael

re: #402 Occasional Reader


It's like Spanish Fly.

Does that stuff work?

Yes, and if you send me your credit card number I will send you some genuine Spanish Fly and if you act immediately, I will include a bottle of Viagra, all for just $200!

449 EtNorskTroll  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:53:13pm

re: #436 Truumax

re: #413 EtNorskTroll

That's a norwegian insult though, doesn't really work in swedish ;)

And I could get around the letters too, but I don't want to pull out the really vile swedish insults.

Probably wisest.

Last thing the world needs (besides a Nazi) is another flame war.

You're right.

~Norsk Troll

450 tommygum  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:53:53pm

re: #90 Ghengis Khan

Are there any history theorists or WW2 buffs out there? Would we have been able to handle the war without the aid of the USSR?
I'm not saying anything by this, I am just curious what people who study it think.

There was no aid from the USSR. That was strictly a one way street. They even interred our fliers, if they ended up there. Outside of a few instances of overly-negotiated logistical support for bomber refuelings there was nada. All we had in common was a common enemy.

451 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:54:35pm

re: #441 stvip

Carol Herman may be banned, but so help me, as I read the post from the bottom up? I thought it was her sockpuppet..I see it is her echo chamber.

452 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:54:51pm

re: #448 Kenneth

re: #415 Maine's Michael

re: #402 Occasional Reader


It's like Spanish Fly.


Does that stuff work?

Yes,
and if you send me your credit card number I will send you some genuine
Spanish Fly and if you act immediately, I will include a bottle of
Viagra, all for just $200!

Just as soon as the daughter of the deposed President of Nigeria wires me that $1.5 million she promised, I'll buy some off you.

453 Maine's Michael  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:55:27pm

re: #441 stvip


Well, do you live in Israel? If not, how closely do you follow the news?

Who do you think fought and died in the 2006 Lebanon War? . . .

Conversely, we have a major problem with anti-democratic factions here.

If you have counterpoints, I'll be happy to hear them out, and debate the matter.

You want to talk about which stratum of society had more casualties in the last war? Give me a break. Talk about divisiveness.

As for anti-democratic factions, it strikes me that Olmert and his clique, and the rest of the secular establishment n Israel, have benefited far more from disregarding democratic principles and concepts than the religious. Now, that may just be because the latter has not had as much opportunity.

Ultimately, the political structure in Israel is seriously flawed and anti-democratic by design. It needs overhaul.

FYI I am a dual citizen, Israeli born, and follow events very very closely.

454 gibsonz  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:56:13pm

re: #299 Charles

Lgf-watch...is that numbskull and his cat still lurking, somebody get that idiot a tin cup and a squeegy!

455 Roger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:56:25pm

re: #381 Rust Never Sleeps

Thank you. You input is helpful.

I do think the leftist use the Holocaust for their own political gain against opposition. The more I read the more politics I see with this and the use of immigrants to control power through control of votes.

456 Occasional Reader  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:56:31pm

re: #444 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

You're supposed to give it to the girl? No wonder I keep striking out!

LOL... yes, and also you're supposed to stuff that salami down the front of your pants, I keep telling you that.

Sorta kinda on the same subject... several years ago some guy, total stranger, walks up to me in a bar/club one night, and asked "do you know where I can get roofies?" At the time, I didn't know what "roofies" were (Rohypnol, "date rape" drug), figured it was some sort of recreational drug, and so just said "ah, no, sorry." Had I known what it was, I'd have said "sure, wait right here", called 911, and tried to set up a sting to get this fooking would-be rapist sent to share a nice, warm cell with a large guy named Raheem.

(I also have no idea why he thought I looked like a roofies dealer. At that same bar, a few years later, I was mistaken for Russian mafia. Very odd.)

457 Kenneth  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:56:49pm

re: #418 WriterMom

I think I missed the precise wording, but you know who said that!

458 Ghengis Khan  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:56:51pm

re: #450 tommygum

This question has been answered a million times already. But by "aid" I really meant "without them killing several thousand nazi's as well."
Sorry I wasn't more clear.

I'm out everybody!
Thanks for the brawling.

459 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:57:35pm

re: #443 goodbye_natalie

Speaking of the devil...

460 Maine's Michael  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:57:36pm

re: #441 stvip

Well, do you live in Israel? If not, how closely do you follow the news?

Who do you think fought and died in the 2006 Lebanon War? . . .

Conversely, we have a major problem with anti-democratic factions here.

If you have counterpoints, I'll be happy to hear them out, and debate the matter.

You want to talk about which stratum of society had more casualties in the last war? Give me a break. Talk about divisiveness.

As for anti-democratic factions, it strikes me that Olmert and his clique, and the rest of the secular establishment n Israel, have benefited far more from disregarding democratic principles and concepts than the religious. Now, that may just be because the latter has not had as much opportunity.

Ultimately, the political structure in Israel is seriously flawed and anti-democratic by design. It needs overhaul.

FYI I am a dual citizen, Israeli born, and follow events very very closely.

461 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:57:40pm

I do think Ms Geller could agree to disagree without the added 'CAIR' stuff.

462 stvip  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:58:05pm

re: #453 Maine's Michael

Just a recent event that caught my eye:

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

What do you think of things like this?

463 J.S.  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:58:12pm

Roeland Raes, the Holocaust Denier, according to a wiki article is:

At the moment he is Vlaams Belang chapter leader of Lovendegem, member of the Vlaams Belang party board of the district Gent-Eeklo and (as a former senator) member of the national party council of the Vlaams Belang.

464 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:58:12pm

re: #452 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

ROTFL!

465 Highrise  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:58:49pm

re: #438 NY Nana


haha I just took a trip over at lgfwatch..not sure if there is soap that is strong enough to remove the stench from over there. You and I are copy pasted over there in our defense of Charles. I also see chen is over there, doing his usual. People are so transparent when they attack supporters and not the issues.

Hey lgfwatchers.... *smooch*

466 Charles  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:59:22pm

re: #446 Defeater of Defeatism

Good posts, thanks. As I've written before, Belgian politics is a convoluted mess, as are European politics in general.

But in the case of Vlaams Belang, even Pim Fortuyn and Ayaan Hirsi Ali have condemned them as "fascists." If I have to choose between a party with a skinhead past, and people like Fortuyn and Hirsi Ali, it's not even a choice.

467 WriterMom  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 1:59:23pm

re: #457 Kenneth

No I don't...that's why I was asking.

468 Yank in the EU  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:00:02pm

re: #446 Defeater of Defeatism
Thanks for your informative post. I'm in a particular university town in Vlaams Brabant. Myself, I've had experience with both sides of the VBs and would strongly agree about the disastrous effect of the condon sanitaire, though perhaps it has had the effect of mainstreaming their brand of ideology. I'll take a look at that party you mention. The question is: are they will to stand strongly against Islamism. Clearly Paul Belien believes the only ones who are willing to grasp the threat are the VB.

469 Maine's Michael  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:00:17pm

re: #462 stvip

I think they should be arrested, tried, and punished. Not necessarily in that order. What do you think I think?

Lots of secular men kill their wives. I don't like that either.

470 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:00:43pm

Carol Herman was banned? She/he was long winded and rambling, and occasionally insulting, and sometimes didn't make much sense, but I do that myself sometimes after a few Diet Cokes and Jack.

471 ZionistYoungster  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:00:47pm

re: #365 stvip

We also need Muslims. Sane ones.

You'll find them... in hiding.

Personally, I feel highly uncomfortable when people here attack Islam in general, rather than Islamism.

But the uncomfortable truth is that, while there are moderate Muslims, there has not yet arisen any moderate Islam.

Christianity had its destructive phase.

Note that you called it "Christianity" and not "Christianism". It was the religion as it was then. The problem with the term, "Islamism" is that it imagines a pristine non-violent, non-supremacist Islam that was later hijacked. But that just isn't true.

Israel is being devoured from within by extremist religious factions.

"Devoured from within"? What hyperbole.

What do you mean by "extremist religious factions"? Extremist in the Ultra-Orthodox direction or in the Nationalist Religious one? (I'm one of the Nationalist Religious.) And what does "devouring from within" consist of? If you're talking about the erosion of the government and the rule of law, that isn't because of any religious extremists, it's a worldwide phenomenon, very much tied to nanny-state socialism. See here for details.

472 Ringo the Gringo  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:02:02pm

re: #446 Defeater of Defeatism

Makes me glad to be an American.

/ No offense intended.

473 Charles  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:02:23pm

As for the Holocaust vote -- I see this in very simple terms. That was a resolution condemning the Nazi death camps. For a party that's already treading dangerously close to the line to refuse to support such a resolution speaks very loudly about their ideology.

This is one big reason why Stormfront and the Pan Aryan Morons like Vlaams Belang, because they're trying to use coded words and slippery arguments to get to the same place.

474 bulwrk  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:02:51pm

re: #470 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet

you don't even come close to a carol herman post.

475 Blazer in RIC  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:02:53pm

Historically the Islamofacists, and the Nazis have been allied in ideaology, and execution of ideals. Both believe in the worldwide destruction of the Jews, and the global installation of totalitarian regimes.

Should be no surprise that Iran literally translates into "land of the Aryans".

You don't have to be a Jew to be psychologically, and racially impure to either. For one you have to be the right religion, for two you can posess no religion at all. For both you can posess neither freedom of mind, nor spirit.

It wasn't only the Jew that perished under the jackboot, although they suffered the most horribly from the Nazis because most were allowed to live for as long as possible, in as much agony as possible before they met their fate.

Anyone who gets behind the notion of fighting radical Islam with a Nationalist Socialist movement, is only trading the sword of the caliphate, for the gas chamber.

As a patriotic American I believe we already have the tools necessary to fight Islamofacism, based upon the humane integrity, of our constitution, and the moral integrity of our spiritual beliefs, than to go looking for final desperate solutions.

476 wahabicorridor  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:03:05pm

Whatever creep groups may try to latch on to VB for their own reasons, I'm finding it damn difficult to believe that Fjordman, Paul Bellien, et. al., would go near nazi-sympathyzer groups with a barge pole.

This just does not compute.

477 MandyManners  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:03:28pm

re: #443 goodbye_natalie

Adding to Charles' #299 comment:

By the way, I see that the stalkers at lgfwatch are "applauding" Charles' stance on this issue.

Since we know you're reading these comments, lgfwatch creeps weirdos, stalkers, and other deviants, here's a message question that I've carefully crafted just for you:

Has Carol Herman joined up yet moving your vast audience to a baker's dozen?

ROFLMAO!

478 Kenneth  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:03:29pm

re: #467 WriterMom

BabbaZee! Just one a her many pearls of wisdom. Please ask her for the full quote, I tried to search for it, but kept coming up empty. That was as near as I could remember. It's like a litmus test for crypto-hate groups.

479 stvip  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:03:30pm

re: #469 Maine's Michael

But the problem is that that wasn't an isolated incident. It's a mindset of a major faction here. Hence my original point.

480 experiencedtraveller  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:03:32pm

re: #407 Golem Akbar

I accept your ding and comment fully Golem as I have long admired your posts. But I stand by my #387. Regards.

481 usmc1968  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:04:07pm

re: #86 Thanosn I hate the word "MASTER" unless the word "GOD" precedes it.

482 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:05:05pm

re: #327 Iron Fist

And let us add another democratic bigot: Jimmy Carter. His book excoriating Israel fits in with another fact of his life as Governor of Georgia. A Jewish man, Leo Frank was arrested for a rape he did not commit. He was dragged from his jail cell and lynched. Carter opposed clearing Frank's name: Carter's Republican successor finally made things right.

483 Yank in the EU  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:05:17pm

#468 pimf: cordon

484 Kenneth  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:06:21pm

re: #481 usmc1968

Or "Thigh", as in Suzanne Summers' "Thigh Master" as seen on TV.

485 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:06:56pm

re: #446 Defeater of Defeatism

Look on the bright side: a Belgian Civil war would have a major negative impact on the EU.

486 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:07:18pm

re: #462 stvip

re: #453 Maine's Michael

Just a recent event that caught my eye:

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

What do you think of things like this?

Is this going to turn into one of those secular vs religious Jewish things that occasionally pop up here.


Unlike some here, such as Carl, who seems pretty devout, Maine's Michael, while he may be devout, frequently expresses his enjoyment of the finer things in life, such that I am not sure if he is somewhat religious, very religious, or secular.


As to the article, women to the back of the bus sounds so, I don't know, Selma 1950s.

487 commander_vimes  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:07:40pm

re: #484 Kenneth

or followed by "Blaster".

488 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:09:10pm

re: #474 bulwrk

re: #470 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet

you don't even come close to a carol herman post.


I'va had to stay sober for a few weeks in case my wife had gone into labor. Now that the baby is here, in a few weeks I can start drinking and posting again.


Not actually planning to antagonize random posters like she/he did.

489 Maine's Michael  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:09:20pm

re: #479 stvip

What about the mindset of the majority surrounding Israel, which want all Jews dead and gone?

Why not focus on them, together? Let legislation and laws deal with the minority chauvinists.

Its simply a question of identifying the problems. Focusing on the religious in ISrael as the problem is counterprodcutive. They are not the problem. It is the likes of Olmert and his cronies, and the sense of narcissism and corruption that is the far greater threat.

The black garbed are or can be pain in the ass. But the knitted kippa crowd are the ones who will ensure Israel goes on.

It is worth keep that in mind. It won't be Olmert's crowd and the foreign passport holders.

490 gibsonz  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:10:05pm

re: #470 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet

Reading one of Carol Herman`s posts was like a tailgate party for paint to dry...,you always wound up asking yourself, what the hell is this about!

491 Colonel Panik  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:10:37pm

re: #416 ZionistYoungster

re: #379 Ringo the Gringo


Where's fjordman?

Don't know where he is, but I just have to say this: He's a good man trying to lead one of the most difficult areas of this fight.

I feel bad for having been hard on him lately. There were some real scumbags posting on those Gates of Vienna threads where it started, but Fjordman isn't part of those. It's just that Europe is in a terrible jam, and he has to address all the issues there. Issues I now see I don't have sufficient understanding of.

Fjordman has been on the Dutch Intifada 2 thread most of the morning here but he hasn't posted in a few hours.

492 Golem Akbar  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:10:39pm

re: #480 experiencedtraveller

re: #407 Golem Akbar

I accept your ding and comment fully Golem as I have long admired your posts. But I stand by my #387. Regards.

We'll agree to disagree (only my wife can disagree with me and get away with it...).

493 harmless  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:10:40pm

Good work, Charles, I couldn't agree more. The "enemy of my enemy" stuff is a sure way to get into trouble, just like when we let anti-Iranian, ant-Libyan and anti-Saudi elements set up in London when in reality they were no friends of ours. If you lay down with dogs, you get fleas. 'Nuff said.

494 Occasional Reader  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:10:52pm

re: #487 commander_vimes

re: #484 Kenneth

or followed by "Blaster".

Or preceded by "I don't think the" and followed by "would approve".

495 Maine's Michael  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:11:08pm

Ed, I am about as secular as they come.

I am married to a non-Jewish woman.

496 ibrodsky  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:11:40pm

re: #432 Occasional Reader

We need an anti-jihad coat of arms... something like a beer bottle rampant, over a field of prosciutto.

It should include a dog, a pig, an alcoholic drink, and a girl in a bikini.

497 Highrise  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:11:47pm

re: #490 gibsonz

It was just a matter of time before carol got the boot. She was getting bolder and bolder with her off the wall even at times mobyish statements. Her insults to the lizard readership were increasing and getting flat old.

Good riddance to rubbish. Charles' blog doesn't need it.

498 Kenneth  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:11:49pm

re: #494 Occasional Reader

yeah, and then you would follow the word with "bates"

499 Maine's Michael  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:12:40pm

re: #496 ibrodsky

It should include a dog, a pig, an alcoholic drink, and a girl in a bikini.

being ogled by a bar mitzvah boy.

500 Beagle  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:13:28pm

#475 Blazer in RIC

Should be no surprise that Iran literally translates into "land of the Aryans".


Renamed in 1935 as an homage to Herr Hitler's ideas about race. Was Persia for over a thousand years. Sort of puts a "now you know the rest of the story" spin on things, doesn't it?

501 stvip  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:13:54pm

re: #471 ZionistYoungster

re: #365 stvip

What do you mean by "extremist religious factions"? Extremist in the Ultra-Orthodox direction or in the Nationalist Religious one? (I'm one of the Nationalist Religious.) And what does "devouring from within" consist of?

Both forms are deleterious. Obviously, if you're a Nationalist-Religious who believes in Democracy, and the right of Jews of any degree of observance to live as they see fit in accordance with the law of the country, you're part of the solution, not part of the problem.
But you cannot deny there's a major anti-democratic faction within the Nationalist-Religious sector. Neither Yigal Amir, nor Baruch Goldstein acted out of context. Both are considered heroes by far too many within Israel.

502 cookielady  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:14:00pm

re: #282 EtNorskTroll

Uff da....

Please tell me, does this mean, 'Good Grief!' or 'Enough said,' or what?

Fun phrase, that!

503 meMarc  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:14:31pm

Two-Thirds of G-Men Still Can't Get Online

By Noah Shachtman EmailOctober 24, 2007
Feel free to talk smack about the FBI around here. The changes of a G-Man actually reading this are pretty small.

USA Today On Deadline catches the Bureau's Willie Hulon admitting to the Senate Intelligence Committee that only a third of the Agency's desks have computers that can access the Internet. "Another third of the FBI's workforce is due to receive them within the next year," allegedly.

But not to worry, Hulon adds. It's not like agents can't do research online. "They do have access to the Internet. We have stations within field offices that people can go to to work at but we don't have access at everyone's desk," he says.

Well, that fixes everything.

The FBI, once seen as the alpha geeks of law enforcement, have had acute cases of computer- and network-phobia for years. Former director Louis Freeh reportedly had his PC taken off of his desk. The 100,000 tips from 2002’s Washington sniper case, Ronald Kessler notes in The Bureau: The Secret History of the FBI, were circulated by fax. As recently as 18 months ago, the Bureau's chief information officer said the FBI couldn't afford e-mail addresses for 8,000 of its 30,000 employees. And only 100 of 2000 agents in New York had Blackberries. Headquarters nearly cut off the 100 Blackberry owners until an assistant director "raised a stink" and saved his G-men from being disconnected.

504 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:14:36pm

re: #495 Maine's Michael

Ed, I am about as secular as they come.

I am married to a non-Jewish woman.


I thought I'd remembered that, but it seemed like stvip was tryint to bait you into a secular vs religious war of words, with him on the side of the reasonable and secular by posting about an obnoxious act by the ultra-Orthodox.


BTW, if they want sex segregated bus service, rather than impose their will on public transport they should buy a bus or two of their own and set up a private line.

505 Timbre  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:15:26pm

Charles is completely correct! Supremacy is the evil. It may be Islamist, Christian Identity, Asatru (prison-type), Nation of Islam, Nazi, even some ultra-Orthodox groups who advocate Psalm 137 action against Palestinians. The defense of liberty caan be accomplished without the spewing of hate-filled supremacist manifestos.

506 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:15:31pm

re: #482 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

Jimmy the Jew hater?

507 experiencedtraveller  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:15:46pm

OT: When did Carol Herman get banned? Was it something egregious or just a creeping annoyance?

508 ZionistYoungster  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:16:23pm

re: #489 Maine's Michael

The black garbed are or can be pain in the ass. But the knitted kippa crowd are the ones who will ensure Israel goes on.

The Ultra-Orthodox today are often more Zionist in their way of thinking than the weaklings now occupying the seats of our government.

You won't find an Ultra-Orthodox rabbi declaring outright that Zionism is kosher; but then, there never went out a declaration (from the Mitnagdim) that the Hasidic movement is kosher. Tacit acceptance is sometimes the way things go.

And the Ultra-Orthodox are #1 when it comes to charity work. Secular Jews in trouble often go to their gmach (charity initiative spots) for help.

Under all the various labels, there's only Jews.

509 Beagle  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:16:38pm

#503 meMarc

As recently as 18 months ago, the Bureau's chief information officer said the FBI couldn't afford e-mail addresses for 8,000 of its 30,000 employees.


wtf?

Welcome to the 21st Century Earth men!

510 3 wood  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:17:12pm

re: #429 taxfreekiller


We have this big old ranch down here in Texas, we have a 2 mile fence on the east side of them in west Texas, the Waggoner Ranch, the DDDD brand.

so, in honor of Dickless Drubin's Dream Donk

Yo, dickless, your DDDD bill got dunked, to bad so sad.

yours true ,
taxfreekiller
see you in the election in 2008 ass wipe

Yep. And as an Illinois resident I can't wait to vote and send him a message.

511 LSD  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:17:32pm

Breaking In "Flyover" Country

Oklahoma lawmakers to return Quran copies to Ethnic American Advisory Council

"Most Oklahomans do not endorse the idea of killing innocent women and children in the name of ideology," Representative Rex Duncan said. The Republican expressed his feelings Monday in a letter to colleagues. At least 17 legislators have told the panel they will return the gift. Marjaneh Seirafi-Pour, chairwoman of the council and a Muslim, denounced Duncan's assessment of Islam. "I know he referred to Islam as an ideology. That is not a fact. It is a religion. It is very peaceful, very inclusive," Seirafi-Pour said. In Washington, spokesman Ibrahim Hooper of the Council on American-Islamic Relations said Duncan's statement is "disturbing" and "offensive" to Muslims. "It just points to the amount of education about Islam and the American Muslim community that is needed in all levels in our society, including elected officials," Hooper said. Seirafi-Pour said the gift was a way to introduce the council to lawmakers so they can use it as a resource to "serve their offices and constituents."

NOW, The "Dirt" on the Oklahoma Gov's "Ethnic American Advisory Council": Is there only one kind of Ethnic American in Oklahoma?

That's interesting, I thought. I knew who Sheryl Siddiqui was, and that she was slated to be a panelist on the program, but I'd never heard of Marjan Seirafi-Pour. And I thought it was interesting that a Muslim leader was the head of this Ethnic American Advisory Council, given the relatively small number of Muslims in Oklahoma compared to other ethnic groups ...The membership doesn't seem very diverse or very representative of Oklahoma's ethnic heritage. Where are the Czechs from Prague, Italians from Krebs, and Russians from Hartshorne? Where are the Greeks and Filipinos?
According to the Governor's web page about the Governor's Ethnic American Advisory Council (GEAAC), the monolithic membership is intentional. "Ethnic" appears to be a euphemism for something different: On May 27, 2004, Governor Brad Henry issued Executive Order 04-21, which created the Governor's Ethnic American Advisory Council ... All Council members are appointed by the Governor.
Here is the current list of members:
Chair: Marjaneh Seirafi-Pour
Dr. Riaz Ahmad
Malaka A. Elyazgi
Mohammad Farzaneh
Dr. Fayyaz H. Hashmi
Dr. Basel S. Hassoun
Dr. Mohammad Karami
Dr. Sandra Kaye Rana ...
I may be wrong, and I haven't checked every name on the list, but I'd be willing to bet every one of the board members is a Muslim. Here are a couple who are for sure. I'll check the other names and add info here as I find it.
Dr. Riaz Ahmad, a biology professor at University of Central Oklahoma, is quoted in a departmental newsletter: "We have also been to Mecca, Saudi Arabia twice to do pilgrimage."
Malaka A. Elyazgi's husband Mohamed was quoted as a spokesman for the mosque in Norman following the October 1, 2005, suicide bombing on the OU campus. He was a business partner in a small shop in Oklahoma City with Mufid Abdulqader, who was indicted as a fundraiser for the Palestinian terrorist group Hamas, of which Abdulqader's half-brother is the supreme political leader ...So why would Gov. Brad Henry issue an executive order to set up a special council for Muslims, giving it a name designed to hide its true purpose? ...

Read More

512 bulwrk  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:17:59pm

re: #507 experiencedtraveller

last night

513 BabbaZee  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:19:08pm

re: #478 Kenneth

[blush]
{MWAH}

post and run ....
it's my chef of the future hour

but it was:
"All evil meets at least twice daily at Jew Hate Junction"

Bye!

514 3 wood  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:19:11pm

re: #497 Highrise


Good riddance to rubbish. Charles' blog doesn't need it.


Same with ChenZhen's sock this morning. Adios.

515 Red Sock  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:19:50pm

re: #473 Charles

As for the Holocaust vote -- I see this in very simple terms. That was a resolution condemning the Nazi death camps. For a party that's already treading dangerously close to the line to refuse to support such a resolution speaks very loudly about their ideology.

This is one big reason why Stormfront and the Pan Aryan Morons like Vlaams Belang, because they're trying to use coded words and slippery arguments to get to the same place.

Yes, right about that... I still have to say there are some pretty good people walking around at the Vlaams Belang party, but maybe when looking at the party overall, the whole picture, you could say that.

You are right about Fortuyn, and as a big fan of the guy, I must say I was slightly wrong with my earlier comments about the Vlaams Belang party. Maybe I took it a bit personal and was a bit biased at start of this discussion because I know someone inside the party, who is just a normal girl just like anyone around here.

516 Cognito  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:20:13pm

The subject of this post is highly frustrating to me for several reasons, one of which is that these people -- the anti-Islamic neo-Nazis -- provide an excuse for those protesting college students to paint people against fascism with racism.

That's a whole lot of hypens and -isms.

I hereby declare myself leader of of the anti-hyphenism movement.

517 nolocon  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:20:49pm
Two-Thirds of G-Men Still Can't Get Online

In the early 1990s, the Bureau was much too focused on hiring non-traditional-demographic agents than to worry about silly things like computers.

518 meMarc  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:21:08pm

Seen this by Coulter on Huckabee?

On illegal immigration, Huckabee makes George Bush sound like Tom Tancredo. He has compared illegal aliens to slaves brought here in chains from Africa, saying, "I think frankly the Lord is giving us a second chance to do better than we did before."

Toward that end, when an Arkansas legislator introduced a bill that would prevent illegal aliens from voting and receiving state benefits, Huckabee denounced the bill, saying it would rile up "those who are racist and bigots."

He also made the insane point that companies like Toyota would not invest in Arkansas if the state didn't allow non-citizens to vote because it would "send the message that, essentially, 'If you don't look like us, talk like us and speak like us, we don't want you.'"

519 Golem Akbar  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:21:10pm

re: #508 ZionistYoungster

re: #489 Maine's Michael


The black garbed are or can be pain in the ass. But the knitted kippa crowd are the ones who will ensure Israel goes on.

The Ultra-Orthodox today are often more Zionist in their way of thinking than the weaklings now occupying the seats of our government.

You won't find an Ultra-Orthodox rabbi declaring outright that Zionism is kosher; but then, there never went out a declaration (from the Mitnagdim) that the Hasidic movement is kosher. Tacit acceptance is sometimes the way things go.

And the Ultra-Orthodox are #1 when it comes to charity work. Secular Jews in trouble often go to their gmach (charity initiative spots) for help.

Under all the various labels, there's only Jews.

It's almost impossible to explain. I'm not Israeli, only an American Jew. But I know many Israelis, and like Jews all over the world, you just can't pigeon-hole them. Israel, either despite itself or because of itself, is a very democratic, liberal representative country. So yes, there are some extremists there. So what? There are extremists everywhere. In Israel as in the US, they have a home. They are free to express their opinions, no matter how unpopular. But they can't resort to violence. That's the limit line.

520 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:21:34pm

It is not for nothing that I have been warning of a sudden reversion to mass violence by the Europeans.

We see the early warning signs here. I know, I know, these mooks have been around since the end of World War 2 but their influence seems to be growing. Worse, it is moving closer to the mainstream.

The real danger of Europe's absurd multiculturalism, which is actually just a media fad run amok, is not that Europe will be handed over to a new Caliphate but that Europeans will tire of the game, revert to the bloodthirsty habits they have practiced since the Stone Age, and try to exterminate the new neighbors they allowed in by the millions.

We cannot allow ourselves to be aligned or identified with these people. Neo-nazis? Crazed European nationalists? Racism and nationalism are the traditional triggers for mass bloodshed in Europe and the Europeans are very, very good at it. It has been so literally since time immemorial. This homicidal bent is the dark underbelly of our otherwise glorious western civilization. If the truth be known, it is also part of the reason for western dominance, when properly directed.

Another outburst of this dark madness would set western civilization back decades, perhaps centuries.

521 Highrise  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:21:36pm

re: #514 3 wood


Same with ChenZhen's sock this morning. Adios.

I saw that..and I also saw it referenced over at lgfwatch like it was planned.....soooo transparent. Poor Charles...the net can be a nasty place at times, sadly.

522 3 wood  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:21:53pm

re: #507 experiencedtraveller


OT: When did Carol Herman get banned? Was it something egregious or just a creeping annoyance?


Last night I think. She was a migrane headache.

523 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:22:05pm

re: #497 Highrise

And her spitting on Charles as her mania increased...I got 7 emails last night, as I was not on the thread, and didn't know. They had links to the posts in aprticular...her last ones. I just sat there, and when it sunk in that she was banned? I did this.

And up pops her mime...stvip. Another hater of religious Jews.

524 Occasional Reader  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:22:11pm

re: #513 BabbaZee

it's my chef of the future hour

Best euphemism for nuking some frozen food I've ever seen...

525 Andrew Ian Dodge  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:22:26pm

Then again Stormfront has endorsed Ron Paul for President. And he is certainly not a neo-Nazi.

526 not neo just conservative  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:22:28pm

I don't want to link Stormfront here, but if you follow the redirector provided by Charles and snoop around a little, guess who gets mucho support for President from the skinheads? Ron Paul! Heh! Go to their front page and click any moderator link (on the right) and what do you get? A "Ron Paul for President" banner with a link to:


Is Ron Paul the One?

by Charles Coughlin

Do patriotic White Americans finally have a candidate they can vote for without fear of being sold out again? Blah Blah Blah

The short answer to the rhetorical question posed above? Skinheads heart Ron Paul.

527 Thanos  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:22:44pm

Defeater : Thanks kindly for the lucid post. The issues are certainly complex and long-running, and there are few choices as you point out.

I'm with you however - that dark streak of nihilistic defeatism that makes people think they must ally with bad to defeat bad is what we face here. Nihilism is always wrong and it drives people to terribly wrong and paranoid actions and decisions. Look at the American left.

528 not neo just conservative  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:23:11pm

re: #525 Andrew Ian Dodge

You beat my comment by two seconds...

529 opnion  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:24:16pm

re: #403 Golem Akbar

I take your point.There are moderate Muslims, but no moderation in Islam.
Atrocities committed by Christians violated the New Testament.
Pious Muslims can find ample justification for violence in the Koran.
You are correct that moderate Muslims are in a really tough spot with their co-religionists which begs the question.
It is not bigoted to abhor a book that promotes hate & violence and to be critical of those that do not denounce it

530 MrAndMrsSmith  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:25:27pm

Re: #516 Cognito

You reminded me of something I found online a few years ago:

[Link: www.theodoresworld.net...]

It was recited by John Wayne; the site above has an audio link where you can hear it. But this is what he said:

The Hyphen, Webster's Dictionary defines,
Is a symbol used to divide a
compound word or a single word.
So it seems to me that when a man calls himself
An "Afro-American," a "Mexican-American,"
"Italian-American," An "Irish-American,"
"Jewish-American,"
What he's sayin' is, "I'm a divided American."

Well, we all came from other places,
Different creeds and different races,
To form a nation...to become as one,
Yet look at the harm a line has done-
A simple little line, and yet
As divisive as a line can get.
A crooked cross the Nazis flew,
And the Russian hammer and sickle too-
Time bombs in the lives of Man;
But none of these could ever fan
The fames of hatred faster than
The Hyphen.

The Russian hammer built a wall
That locks men's hearts from freedom's call.
A crooked cross flew overhead
Above twenty million tragic dead-
Among them men from this great nation,
Who died for freedom's preservation.
A hyphen is a line that's small;
It can be a bridge or be a wall.
A bridge can save you lots of time;
A wall you always have to climb.
The road to liberty lies true.
The Hyphen's use is up to you.

Used as a bridge, it can span
All the differences of Man.
Being free in mind and soul
Should be our most important goal.
If you use The Hyphen as a wall,
You'll make your life mean...and small.
An American is a special breed,
Whose people came to her in need.
They came to her that they might find
A world where they'd have peace of mind.
Where men are equal...and something more-
Stand taller than they stood before.

So you be wise in your decision,
And that little line won't cause division.
Let's join hands with one another...
For in this land, each man's your brother.
United we stand...divided we fall.
WE'RE AMERICANS...and that says it all.

531 David Simon  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:25:43pm

re: #507 experiencedtraveller

OT: When did Carol Herman get banned? Was it something egregious or just a creeping annoyance?

She was banned last night. Yet another poster who thought she could use Charles' site for free while posting nasty digs at him.

I actually found her mildly entertaining at times, even though her Andy Rooney style of posting left me scratching my head more often than not.

532 3 wood  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:26:02pm

re: #521 Highrise


I also saw it referenced over at lgfwatch like it was planned.....soooo transparent. Poor Charles...the net can be a nasty place at times, sadly.

Lgfwatch can go pound sand. We got terrorists killing people around the world and they to time to cyber-stalk LGF. Talk about your useful idiots.

533 ZionistYoungster  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:26:07pm

re: #501 stvip

But you cannot deny there's a major anti-democratic faction within the Nationalist-Religious sector. Neither Yigal Amir, nor Baruch Goldstein acted out of context. Both are considered heroes by far too many within Israel.

I can deny that Amir and Goldstein are considered heroes by many. I call "MSM blowing out of proportion" on that.

The grain of truth is that many, and not just Nationalist Religious either, are frustrated with a government that is out of touch with what nearly everybody has realized: that land concessions bring us only disaster.

It was because of the recognition that the assassination of Rabin was wrong that the expulsion of the Jewish settlers from the Gaza strip went without internecine bloodshed. I firmly believe that there will be no coup, much less a bloody revolution, in Israel. But don't let that obscure the fact that the government has lost legitimacy in the eyes of a majority. That loss of legitimacy finds its expression in the ways the Israeli Jewish public now devises to do without the government's services. As I detailed in the link in my previous comment.

534 Thanos  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:26:28pm

re: #515 Red Sock

re: #473 Charles

As for the Holocaust vote -- I see this in very simple terms. That was a resolution condemning the Nazi death camps. For a party that's already treading dangerously close to the line to refuse to support such a resolution speaks very loudly about their ideology.
This is one big reason why Stormfront and the Pan Aryan Morons like Vlaams Belang, because they're trying to use coded words and slippery arguments to get to the same place.

Yes, right about that... I still have to say there are some pretty good people walking around at the Vlaams Belang party, but maybe when looking at the party overall, the whole picture, you could say that.

You are right about Fortuyn, and as a big fan of the guy, I must say I was slightly wrong with my earlier comments about the Vlaams Belang party. Maybe I took it a bit personal and was a bit biased at start of this discussion because I know someone inside the party, who is just a normal girl just like anyone around here.

I don't think anyone here is saying that there aren't some really great, well-intentioned people in VB.

However the minority destroys the whole, defeats their purpose, and overwhelms their cause. Ends never justify means, and it just isn't smart strategy to assume it can.

535 Agitate  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:26:49pm
LGF is as anti-jihad as anyone on the web; but I do not accept that we’ve reached the point where we should embrace these kinds of people as allies, simply because they’re hitching a ride on the bandwagon and saying the right things when the spotlight is on them.

I’m in this fight because I believe in personal freedom and liberty, and these links and photographs raise more than warning signs to me. They raise the hairs on the back of my neck.


This is the just one more reason I read LGF every day even if I have time to read nothing else.

Amen Charles -- Watch your back and don't ever change.

536 profitsbeard  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:28:18pm

We could have reached the moon without Werner Von Braun.

(America's Robert Goddard gave him his rocketry training wheels.)

And we can defeat Islamofascism without Mel Brooks rejects.

Fascists can always be recognized by their lack of a sense of humor.

Who needs 'em?

No kidding.

537 Timbre  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:28:42pm

re: #520 Shiplord Kirel

And #527 Thanos

Great points. I wish more people could see the facts, then understand the truth based upon those facts.

538 Piglet-U93  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:28:48pm

re: #41 Gordon Marock

By the way, I hate Islamic Nazis just as much as I hate Illinois Nazis.

Its OK to hate evil.

539 Ben Hur  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:29:37pm

re: #462 stvip

re: #453 Maine's Michael

Just a recent event that caught my eye:

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

What do you think of things like this?

Pardon me for interjecting BUT, the Haredi and Shas talk a good (halacha) game, but the end of the day they are subservient to the Democratic rule of Law of the State of Israel, whether they like to admit it or not.

Usually they admit it while sitting in the secular state's PRISON.

540 So?  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:29:57pm

OT OT OT

Iran has signed a deal with China to purchase 24 J-10 fighter jets between 2008 and 2010, Russian news agency Novosti reported. The jets were developed based on the technology of Israel's Lavi fighter jet, whose technology was sold to China against the wishes of the US.

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

The Israeli Lavi fighter jet was developed in the 1980s but the project was canceled following pressure from America, which feared that the new jet would compete with its F-16 in international markets. The US subsequently sold F-16s to Israel at reduced costs.

~~~~~~~~~

Fucking US... always want their cake and eat it too.

Israel screwed themselves dealing with the obscene Chinese.

Ah...it's all a f**cking mess. War is inevitable...MAJOR WAR.

Within the next few years, if not sooner.

541 Roger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:29:58pm

Can anyone translate the jist of

[Link: www.vlaamsbelang.be...]
Vlaams Belang's open brief to Ayaan Hirsi Ali?

542 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:30:03pm

re: #510 3 wood

re: #429 taxfreekiller

We have this big old ranch down here in Texas, we have a 2 mile fence on the east side of them in west Texas, the Waggoner Ranch, the DDDD brand.
so, in honor of Dickless Drubin's Dream Donk

Yo, dickless, your DDDD bill got dunked, to bad so sad.

yours true ,
taxfreekiller
see you in the election in 2008 ass wipe


Yep. And as an Illinois resident I can't wait to vote and send him a message.

Ditto, 3wood, megaditto. I've been calling Durbin Dickless for years. More recently, however, after is "GIs are Nazis" speech, I've taken to calling him Dickhead Durbin.

2010 can't come soon enough for me to vote his ass out of office. Him and then his little Obama too (in 2012).

543 non-dhimmini  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:30:19pm

re: #110 uptight

Sadly in Europe the Nationalist groups are the only ones making a stand against Islamism (albeit for the wrong reasons).

Liberals - pardon my language - need to wake the fuck up.

The cause against islamism is a Liberal cause. It is a cause against totalitarianism, misogyny, homophobia, the stiffling of democracy, free speech and a free press.

Liberals are too obsessed with Bush to notice this because they are obsessed with Bush. So obsessed that they are actually helping the cause of Islamofascism.

So either way fascists win.

Well said! How do we tell the lefties among us this FACT? What will it take for them to wake up to the threat? (My hands are still shaking...this is my first post after FINALLY getting registered.)

544 MandyManners  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:30:23pm

re: #511 LSD

Breaking In "Flyover" Country

Oklahoma lawmakers to return Quran copies to Ethnic American Advisory Council

"Most Oklahomans do not endorse the idea of killing innocent women and children in the name of ideology," Representative Rex Duncan said. The Republican expressed his feelings Monday in a letter to colleagues. At least 17 legislators have told the panel they will return the gift. Marjaneh Seirafi-Pour, chairwoman of the council and a Muslim, denounced Duncan's assessment of Islam. "I know he referred to Islam as an ideology. That is not a fact. It is a religion. It is very peaceful, very inclusive," Seirafi-Pour said. In Washington, spokesman Ibrahim Hooper of the Council on American-Islamic Relations said Duncan's statement is "disturbing" and "offensive" to Muslims. "It just points to the amount of education about Islam and the American Muslim community that is needed in all levels in our society, including elected officials," Hooper said. Seirafi-Pour said the gift was a way to introduce the council to lawmakers so they can use it as a resource to "serve their offices and constituents."

NOW, The "Dirt" on the Oklahoma Gov's "Ethnic American Advisory Council": Is there only one kind of Ethnic American in Oklahoma?
That's interesting, I thought. I knew who Sheryl Siddiqui was, and that she was slated to be a panelist on the program, but I'd never heard of Marjan Seirafi-Pour. And I thought it was interesting that a Muslim leader was the head of this Ethnic American Advisory Council, given the relatively small number of Muslims in Oklahoma compared to other ethnic groups ...The membership doesn't seem very diverse or very representative of Oklahoma's ethnic heritage. Where are the Czechs from Prague, Italians from Krebs, and Russians from Hartshorne? Where are the Greeks and Filipinos?
According to the Governor's web page about the Governor's Ethnic American Advisory Council (GEAAC), the monolithic membership is intentional. "Ethnic" appears to be a euphemism for something different: On May 27, 2004, Governor Brad Henry issued Executive Order 04-21, which created the Governor's Ethnic American Advisory Council ... All Council members are appointed by the Governor.
Here is the current list of members:
Chair: Marjaneh Seirafi-Pour
Dr. Riaz Ahmad
Malaka A. Elyazgi
Mohammad Farzaneh
Dr. Fayyaz H. Hashmi
Dr. Basel S. Hassoun
Dr. Mohammad Karami
Dr. Sandra Kaye Rana ...
I may be wrong, and I haven't checked every name on the list, but I'd be willing to bet every one of the board members is a Muslim. Here are a couple who are for sure. I'll check the other names and add info here as I find it.
Dr. Riaz Ahmad, a biology professor at University of Central Oklahoma, is quoted in a departmental newsletter: "We have also been to Mecca, Saudi Arabia twice to do pilgrimage."
Malaka A. Elyazgi's husband Mohamed was quoted as a spokesman for the mosque in Norman following the October 1, 2005, suicide bombing on the OU campus. He was a business partner in a small shop in Oklahoma City with Mufid Abdulqader, who was indicted as a fundraiser for the Palestinian terrorist group Hamas, of which Abdulqader's half-brother is the supreme political leader ...So why would Gov. Brad Henry issue an executive order to set up a special council for Muslims, giving it a name designed to hide its true purpose? ...

Read More

Shut up, Hoopie, you shit-slinging monkey.

545 EtNorskTroll  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:30:25pm

re: #502 cookielady

re: #282 EtNorskTroll

Uff da....

Please tell me, does this mean, 'Good Grief!' or 'Enough said,' or what?

Fun phrase, that!

Uff da~!

A formal explanation:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

~Norsk Troll

546 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:30:44pm

re: #465 Highrise

re: #438 NY Nana


haha I just took a trip over at lgfwatch..not sure if there is soap that is strong enough to remove the stench from over there. You and I are copy pasted over there in our defense of Charles. I also see chen is over there, doing his usual. People are so transparent when they attack supporters and not the issues.

Hey lgfwatchers.... *smooch*

Do you feel any after effects?

We are quoted? LOL....and chen is there? Figures. He has found a new home. I wonder what he will be when he grows up, if he does.

547 vxbush  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:31:19pm

re: #542 Honorary Yooper

We have to wait until 2010?!?! *groan*

548 Boondock St. Bender  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:33:48pm

#191 charles
"LGF is very anti-jihad, and for years I've been pointing out the dangers of Islamofascism. Yet you won't find any support for LGF at Stormfront. In fact, those pinheads despise me, and I wouldn't have it any other way -- because I've made it very clear over the years that they are not welcome here, and that I am not their fellow traveler. The fact that they support VB says that they don't feel the same rejection from them."


You can tell alot about a man from his enemies,as well as from his friends.

549 ibrodsky  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:34:04pm

re: #525 Andrew Ian Dodge

Then again Stormfront has endorsed Ron Paul for President. And he is certainly not a neo-Nazi.

Then again, his platform is a big first step in their direction.

550 Timbre  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:34:05pm

re: #543 non-dhimmini

Welcome, Non-Dhimmini! I think you'll enjoy Charles' weblog. Objectivity, facts, common sense, and appropriate (and legal) action when necessary.

551 yochanan  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:34:17pm

re: #506 NY Nana


you should really warn people of the content, I would liked a warning about the dead bodies, beheaded photo's this should be put in for those who might not feel this is something they want to see.

552 Golem Akbar  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:35:29pm

re: #529 opnion

re: #403 Golem Akbar

I take your point.There are moderate Muslims, but no moderation in Islam.
Atrocities committed by Christians violated the New Testament.
Pious Muslims can find ample justification for violence in the Koran.
You are correct that moderate Muslims are in a really tough spot with their co-religionists which begs the question.
It is not bigoted to abhor a book that promotes hate & violence and to be critical of those that do not denounce it

Robert Spencer, Daniel Pipes, and whole lot of other really smart people believe that a new, moderate Islam is the answer. They truly believe that most Moslems would love to adhere to such a take on their religion. Maybe it's better to denounce a certain translation or interpretation of the Koran, rather than just denouncing the book itself.

I love the bible, but it has been used in the past as justification for horrible evil. Along comes an enlightened leader and bingo, the bible becomes the impetus for the Renaissance. So I like to think that maybe it's not the Koran that's at fault but the Islamic leaders who have their heads in the 8th century.

553 vxbush  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:37:04pm

Oh, guys, it looks like Durbin is up for re-election in 2008....
Not the best source, but there it is...

[Link: www.electoral-vote.com...]

554 Roger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:37:22pm

re: #473 Charles

It is not so simple for me; the question in my mind is why should there be a need for a vote in the first place. The only thing to decide is when and where.

555 non-dhimmini  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:37:37pm

re: #550 Timbre

Thanks! I have been reading Charles for years, I could just never get registered. I missed it by 5 minutes more than once. But now I am in!

556 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:37:47pm

re: #514 3 wood

Chen's sock? I totally missed that. What was the sockpuppet's name? All my thoughts would be [deleted].

557 experiencedtraveller  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:37:51pm

re: #531 David Simon

Noted with thanks. On the plus side, it's monologues always provided an entry point for the local history buffs to strike up a conversation.

558 nolocon  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:38:20pm

Leftists endorse Islamofacists

Leftists condemn Neo-Nazis

Neo-Nazis condemn Islamofascists

Neo-Nazis endorse Ron Paul

Islamofascists endorse Ron Paul

Islamofascists endorse anti-semitism

Neo-Nazis endorse anti-semitism

Islamofascists condemn Neo-Nazis

...

WTF?

559 jcm  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:41:19pm

re: #558 nolocon

Leftists endorse Islamofacists

Leftists condemn Neo-Nazis

Neo-Nazis condemn Islamofascists

Neo-Nazis endorse Ron Paul

Islamofascists endorse Ron Paul

Islamofascists endorse anti-semitism

Neo-Nazis endorse anti-semitism

Islamofascists condemn Neo-Nazis

...

WTF?

The mind wobbles.

560 Red Sock  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:41:49pm

re: #548 Boondock St. Bender

You can tell alot about a man from his enemies,as well as from his friends.

Indeed, if they are friends both ways around (if each party considers the other as a friend).

Just take a look at the biggest friend of the grand mufti of Jerusalem for example! It doesn't come as a surprise that Mein Kampf was always a bestseller in the muslim world.

Many muslims see neonazi's as their allies. It's also the other way around, with neonazis seeing muslims as an allie against the Jews and against capitalism. But the strange thing (as this article does show) is that there are also neonazis and fascists hating the same muslims, while some of their fellow neonazi's are supporting them!

561 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:41:58pm

re: #547 vxbush

re: #542 Honorary Yooper

We have to wait until 2010?!?! *groan*

Wait, I got that wrong. My bad. He is up for election in 2008, and is heavily favored according to Wikipedia.

Here's something interesting about him:

Interest group ratings
Senator Durbin's ratings from interest groups indicate how often he votes in agreement with their priorities; his particular scores indicate a Democratic record. Given his leadership position — especially since the Whip's job is to cajole senators to toe the party line — Durbin's voting record is very similar to the Democratic caucus position.

AFL-CIO: 85%
American Association of Retired Persons: 90%
American Civil Liberties Union: 60%
American Public Health Association: 100%
Cato Institute: 17%
Christian Coalition: 0%
Gun Owners of America: F-
League of Conservation Voters: 89%
NARAL: 100%
National Education Association: 91%
National Rifle Association: F
National Taxpayers Union: 14%
U.S. Chamber of Commerce: 35%
Citizens Against Government Waste: 15%

Says quite a bit about the man.

And this should always be referred to whenever the man opens his mouth:

If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime — Pol Pot or others — that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners.

What an asshole that Dick Durbin is.

562 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:42:14pm

For MamaWinger: Cooking With Pooh
Heh.

563 MrAndMrsSmith  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:42:46pm

OT -- Hot Air has a satellite image of the California fires. All I can say is holy hippo spit, is that thing big.

[Link: hotair.com...]

564 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:43:07pm

re: #556 NY Nana

re: #514 3 wood

Chen's sock? I totally missed that. What was the sockpuppet's name? All my thoughts would be [deleted].

Chen's sockpuppet was, get a shitload of this, Mr. Poopypants.

565 Timbre  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:43:43pm

re: #506 NY Nana

re: #482 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

Jimmy the Jew hater?

Great link. The TAP presentation is a must-see.

566 Golem Akbar  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:44:11pm

re: #558 nolocon

Leftists endorse Islamofacists

Leftists condemn Neo-Nazis

Neo-Nazis condemn Islamofascists

Neo-Nazis endorse Ron Paul

Islamofascists endorse Ron Paul

Islamofascists endorse anti-semitism

Neo-Nazis endorse anti-semitism

Islamofascists condemn Neo-Nazis

...

WTF?


Communists and Nazis once were allies and then they fought each other. Fatah and Hamas once were allies and then they fought each other. Fascists often have a lot in common. The trick is to get them to fight over their differences, but not to ally ourselves with them. Ever.

567 storagemanager  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:45:37pm
I’m in this fight because I believe in personal freedom and liberty, and these links and photographs raise more than warning signs to me. They raise the hairs on the back of my neck

Mine as well...watch out who you side with...when the fight is over...the gun turns on you.

568 alpheus  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:45:49pm

Charles,

As a "non-white" member of the human race (that's "black" for you libs out there lurking) member of LGF, a conservative, and a veteran, I am proud to stand beside you in the fight against radical Islam. You are a credit to bloggers and Americans everywhere. I salute you!

569 cookielady  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:45:52pm

re: #423 Ringo the Gringo

re: #316 Maine's Michael


We need gays, Christians, ham lovers, Jews, and women's libbers on our side. Not freakin' Nazis.

And drinkers!..Don't forget the drinkers; they're a natural alley.

You mean they are facedown in the alley.

570 BabbaZee  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:46:27pm

re: #524 Occasional Reader

LOL
Silly OR
Whaddayoothink?
I'm like your supermodels?
Not nearly as good looking, sure
but lawd
can I cook, daddy -o!


See ya!

571 usmc1968  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:46:47pm

re: #552 Golem Akbar You're wrong!, It's the koren. I hope I spelled it wrong.

572 MrAndMrsSmith  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:47:34pm

Re: #569 cookielady

You mean they are facedown in the alley.

Only Randi Rhodes knows .....

573 yochanan  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:47:50pm

of course dhimmi carter is an anti semite

ny nana there should have been a warning on the content for the pics in the piece.

574 docremulac  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:48:27pm

Sometimes I think Euro-peons have two switch positions:
stupid-left and stupid-right.

575 Piglet-U93  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:48:49pm

re: #559 jcm

Data entity diagram required!

576 BingoBunny  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:49:00pm

This is the result of Parlimentary governments.. if you want butt loads of nuts and evil people in politics.. vote Democrat or have a parliment

577 Agitate  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:49:30pm

One thing I don't understand--I thought neo-nazis , racists skinheads and the like embraced islamofascism since they both share a psychotic hatred of Jewish people, ala david duke in Syria. However, I don't doubt the connections that Charles points out and I agree with his statements 100%

578 jcm  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:49:45pm

re: #571 usmc1968

Noticed your nic, did you have a piece of the action in Hue?

579 Boondock St. Bender  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:50:17pm

re: #560 Red Sock

Ahhh,It's the xenaphobic reaction,as long as muslims stayed where they belong,(and knew their place)nazi's would gladly work with them.
Now they present a threat to europe and the "cultural norms"of the motherland herself.this cannot be tolerated.
At least thats my take on their position.(essentially it boils down to "they're different,and there's too damn many of em'start hatin'!)

580 usmc1968  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:50:18pm

re: #574 docremulac

If you go left, you can never go right.

581 storagemanager  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:50:33pm
re: #552 Golem Akbar

Read it....the Koran is the problem...the Koran are the words of Mohammad...given to him(he claims) from Allah....Mohammad was not a moderate.

582 MrAndMrsSmith  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:50:45pm

Re: #574 docremulac

Sometimes I think Euro-peons have two switch positions:
stupid-left and stupid-right.

Nah, the switch is more like a dimmer for them. They're either complacent (current situation of Eurabia, included) or simply stuck on stupid, at times, with few bright points to speak of.

583 jcm  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:51:28pm

re: #575 Piglet-U93

re: #559 jcm

Data entity diagram required!

Insufficient memory!
Please reduce the data set and re-enter!

584 Highrise  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:51:35pm

re: #546 NY Nana

Do you feel any after effects?

Only euphoria that the right people hate me :) . Tells me I'm on the right side of the coin lol.

We are quoted? LOL....and chen is there? Figures. He has found a new home. I wonder what he will be when he grows up, if he does.

He's also over at stalker blog 2 as Captian Obvious...but shhhhhh they don't think it's him even though one of their own pointed out his little picture to his name came off of chen's blog.

Birds of a feather is how the saying goes I believe.

585 Esther  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:53:25pm

re: exhibit 1

Rejecting any denial of the Holocaust as a historical event, either in full or in part, the 191-member Assembly adopted by consensus a resolution condemning “without reserve” all manifestations of religious intolerance, incitement, harassment or violence against persons or communities based on ethnic origin or religious belief, whenever they occur. (UN Site)

It's hard to say whether Vlaams Belang voted against the International Day of Commemoration or whether they voted against the additional parts of the resolution. After all, they're accused quite often of intolerance and incitement against Muslims.

586 wanumba  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:54:05pm

Anything European must be analyzed carefully. Mark Steyn did a great column in which he pointed out that the political struggle amongst the Euros was ALL on the end of the spectrum of what Americans recognize as LEFT, usually hard Left. The Euro candidates duke it out all in Left territory, just who's Lefter than the other. Their use of the word, "conservative" is NOT how Americans understand the term. Ignore all uses of "CHristian" in Euro politics - doesn't mean anything like an American would understand the term.

That said, read King Leopold's Ghost - the harrowing and stomach-churning account of how King Leopold of Belgium wanted to catch up to the other Euro powers and make little Belgium into a colonial empire.
His subjugation of the people of the Belgium Congo was the true-life source for Conrad's Heart of Darkness. For rubber and elephant ivory - amongst the many atrocities - little children's hands and feet were chopped off by Belgium overlords to punish/force/manipulate reluctant parents into going into the forest to collect tree rubber. Belgium's soul-less bureaucrats were the inspiration for Conrad's out of control villain - Conrad did not make up the skulls adorning the compounds. Meanwhile, in Europe, Belgium was promoted as the benign, benevolent, civilizing colonial power to backward Africa.
The whole despicable edifice was to come crashing down after ONE lone port agent noticed an anomoly - the ships coming INTO port from the Congo were loaded with rubber and ivory, the Belgium ships headed OUT to Congo were loaded with weapons - not the trade one should expect from a cooperative and benevolent colonial arrangement. This chilling insight, as the man poured over the bills of lading night after night, became the seed of resistance and advocacy for the enslaved Africans.

With histories like this, (French Congo was better but only in comparison to what was going on in Belgium Congo) and don't forget which Belgium neighbor nationailty cooked up that peculiar institution called aparthied, no American should hang his or her head when listening to a European snif on about American racism or intolerance. And always be discerning when they begin to spout their views of how the world should be.

587 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:54:44pm

Oy Gevalt. I knew getting my family out of Europe was the right idea. Here we go again

588 Highrise  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:55:19pm

re: #567 storagemanager

Mine as well...watch out who you side with...when the fight is over...the gun turns on you.


Yup!

589 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:55:34pm

Ralph Peters, who is probably the best strategic analyst of the post Cold-War world, believes that we might end up sending our warships into European ports to rescue Muslims who are in danger of massacre at the hands of their native neighbors.
That seems impossible today, but a cold-blooded campaign to exterminate all the Jews and Gypsies in Europe would have seemed similarly far-fetched and paranoid in, say, 1930.

590 Buckeye Abroad  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:55:40pm

#517 nolocon

In the early 1990s, the Bureau was much too focused on hiring non-traditional-demographic agents than to worry about silly things like computers.

So were the US federal marshalls.

591 storagemanager  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:56:57pm
A tsunami warning has been issued for Indonesia's Sumatra Island following a powerful magnitude 7.1 quake early Thursday morning, according to the U.S. Geological Survey.

The quake was centered around 100 miles southwest of Bengkulu in Sumatra.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

592 profitsbeard  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 2:59:12pm

re: #496 ibrodsky

re: #432 Occasional Reader


We need an anti-jihad coat of arms... something like a beer bottle rampant, over a field of prosciutto.

It should include a dog, a pig, an alcoholic drink, and a girl in a bikini.

I see a bikini clad lady with a pig ("Babe"-esque) under her left arm and a dog (a Scottie, mixing FDR and GWB) under her right arm, with the pig holding up a beer and the dog a martini, bearing the MOTTO:

"JOIN THE ANTI-JIHAD!- Think, Laugh, Triumph"

(In Latin, optional.)

593 J.S.  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:00:22pm

re: #585 Esther

I believe you may be confusing certain factors, here. Exhibit 1 is about the European Parliament (that's the EU Parliament -- every EU member state sends out elected representatives.) There was a vote taken to condemn the nazi death camps. The three members of the Vlaams Belang Party (in the European Parliament) abstained from casting a vote. That means they chose not to condemn the nazi work camps. This was a deliberate decision on their part (not just "an accident.")

594 storagemanager  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:00:40pm
CBS/AP) CBS News has learned a task force of agencies, including the FBI, ATF, the Orange County Fire Authority and the California Department of Forestry will announce shortly that the massive Santiago Canyon Fire - which has caused an estimated $10 million in damage - is being officially declared an arson, and a $50,000 reward is being offered to find the arsonist.
Investigators have identified two separate "points of origin" where they believe the fire was set, CBS News has learned. FBI agents secured the scene to "maintain its integrity."

The Santiago Fire has burned about 19,200 acres east of Irvine, officials said, and it is around 30 percent contained. Six homes and eight outbuildings have been destroyed, with another eight homes and 12 outbuildings damaged. Four firefighters have been injured fighting the blaze and about 3,000 people evacuated

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

595 Occasional Reader  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:01:06pm
I see a bikini clad lady with a pig ("Babe"-esque) under her left arm and a dog (a Scottie, mixing FDR and GWB) under her right arm, with the pig holding up a beer and the dog a martini

That was EXACTLY the result of my last Rorschach test.

596 Highrise  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:02:02pm

re: #552 Golem Akbar

I love the bible, but it has been used in the past as justification for horrible evil. Along comes an enlightened leader and bingo, the bible becomes the impetus for the Renaissance. So I like to think that maybe it's not the Koran that's at fault but the Islamic leaders who have their heads in the 8th century.

Oh no, it is very much the koran that is at fault. The islamic leaders just read it and issue fatwas to make it worse. Make no mistake it IS an evil seed. Slippery statement that seems to want to do moral equivalency between the bible and koran....imo.

597 yochanan  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:03:01pm

arsonist arrested in cali fires

the question i have what is his motivation
a. standard fire bug
or b. anarchist who hates the rich and wanted to see there houses burnt?

598 MrAndMrsSmith  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:03:22pm

Re: #592 profitsbeard

For those who desire the refined elegance of the Latin language:

SUO ANTI JIHAD! Reputo , Rideo risi risum , Triumphus

599 storagemanager  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:03:28pm
SoCal arson suspect killed, another arrested; Santiago Fire to be declared an arson

[Link: michellemalkin.com...]

600 usmc1968  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:03:28pm

re: #578 jcm
Nore: #578 jcm

, No, Khe Sanh 1968

601 Piglet-U93  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:04:28pm

I figured it out

Leftists love Islamofacists are Neo-Nazis are Socialists love Leftists.

The circle is complete.

602 leepro  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:04:50pm

Great post, Charles! It's good to know that all us Lizards are on the RIGHT side.

Knowing that Charles does his homework is enough for me, but it's also important that the "evidence" is now exposed in print for all the lurkers and trolls to see on the worldwide web!

Great work, Charles!

- one proud Lizard
:D

603 Neo Con since 9-11  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:05:20pm

While in no way supporting the a-holes of the Vlaams Belang party, if a fight breaks out between the Nazis and a fascists I will be perfectly happy to sit back and watch. After that, we can move in and fight the depleted "winner"

604 storagemanager  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:05:56pm
Iranian minister of Communication and Information Technology and Chinese minister of Information Industry underlined the necessity of developing ties, especially in the fields of communication, telecommunication industry and information technology.

The Iranian Minister Mohammad Soleymani and his Chinese counterpart Wang Xudong also underscored the necessity of developing technical cooperation and training manpower and exchanging experiences in the fields of communication and information technology between the two countries.

[Link: www2.irna.com...]

605 Thanos  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:05:59pm

re: #596 Highrise

re: #552 Golem Akbar


I love the bible, but it has been used in the past as justification for horrible evil. Along comes an enlightened leader and bingo, the bible becomes the impetus for the Renaissance. So I like to think that maybe it's not the Koran that's at fault but the Islamic leaders who have their heads in the 8th century.

Oh no, it is very much the koran that is at fault. The islamic leaders just read it and issue fatwas to make it worse. Make no mistake it IS an evil seed. Slippery statement that seems to want to do moral equivalency between the bible and koran....imo.

It's a dark mixture of tribal supremacism and tyranny enabled by the evil ideology of Qutbism. Qutbism is enabled by the concept of Calipha, but honestly the shit was going on before Islam was formed.

606 jcm  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:07:11pm

re: #600 usmc1968

re: #578 jcm
Nore: #578 jcm

, No, Khe Sanh 1968

Hue, Khe Sanh not a lot of difference from what I read. I owe you a beer and a lot more.

607 Shaky Louie  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:08:00pm
"...but I do not accept that we’ve reached the point where we should embrace these kinds of people as allies, simply because they’re hitching a ride on the bandwagon and saying the right things when the spotlight is on them.

I’m in this fight because I believe in personal freedom and liberty, and these links and photographs raise more than warning signs to me. They raise the hairs on the back of my neck."

___Charles Johnson


I got here late, but not too late to add...
Amen, brother!

608 stvip  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:08:32pm

re: #533 ZionistYoungster

I can deny that Amir and Goldstein are considered heroes by many. I call "MSM blowing out of proportion" on that.

What has been blown out of proportion? The numbers speak for themselves.

And both terrorists did not act alone, out of context. There is a whole social system that nurtured and guided these people.

This is not about religious vs. secular - it is about anti-democratic anti-liberal (not "Liberal" in the US politics sense) forces versus democratic liberal ones. Being religious does not automatically mean one subscribes to any specific ideology or political view (after all, there's the Meimad party). You just have to realize that the anti-democratic faction within the orthodox religious group is not small, not isolated, and is a grave danger to Israel.

609 usmc1968  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:10:18pm

re: #606 jcm
And I owe you one !

610 Highrise  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:10:54pm

re: #605 Thanos


Understood :) that it goes deeper and humankind has been horrible even before islam.

I just want to make sure people know that the koran is definitely evil. Others can expand upon that much better than I....and I cringe when people make statements that look like moral equivalency between the koran and bible and don't think the koran at fault due to what it says.

611 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:11:19pm

re: #564 Honorary Yooper

ROTFLMAO! (bad choice of words in this case?)

get a shitload of this, Mr. Poopypants.

A nomination for a rotating title, please Charles!

612 EtNorskTroll  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:11:29pm

re: #591 storagemanager

A tsunami warning has been issued for Indonesia's Sumatra Island following a powerful magnitude 7.1 quake early Thursday morning, according to the U.S. Geological Survey.The quake was centered around 100 miles southwest of Bengkulu in Sumatra.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Gosh!

That "Allah" god is really, really mad at his Muslims, huh Storagemanager?

By my recollection, he wiped out about a quarter million of them something like a couple years ago, didn't he?

/just sayin'...

(time for Muslims to get a new God, IMHO).

~ENT

613 storagemanager  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:11:52pm
In a letter to colleagues, state Representative Rex Duncan says "most Oklahomans do not endorse the idea of killing innocent women and children in the name of ideology." At least 17 other legislators have notified the Governor's Ethnic American Advisory Council that they too will return the gift.


BINGO! They Get It.

The council's chairwoman, herself a Muslim, is denouncing Duncan's assessment of Islam. She says Islam not an ideology but a religion, and a "very peaceful, very inclusive" one.
In Washington, a spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations calls Duncan's statement "disturbing" and "offensive."

So sad, too bad--he offended an unindicted HAMAS-financing co-conspirator. BFD. The only thing "offensive" and "disturbing" is that there are far too few of those with the guts of these sagacious, laudable Oklahomans. I call it what it is--courageous and truth to power.

Right on, Rep. Duncan. You are a real man. There's nothing sexier than this kind of courage. And it's no small deal, since there is a big Muslim population in Oklahoma City.

All the PC, Islam-kowtowers throughout our governments--national, state, and local--need to learn the courage of this man. That includes the unelected and self-anointed like *ahem* YOU, Mrs. Bush . . . and your husband.

[Link: www.debbieschlussel.com...]

614 opnion  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:12:22pm

re: #552 Golem Akbar

re: #529 opnion

re: #403 Golem Akbar

I take your point.There are moderate Muslims, but no moderation in Islam.
Atrocities committed by Christians violated the New Testament.
Pious Muslims can find ample justification for violence in the Koran.
You are correct that moderate Muslims are in a really tough spot with their co-religionists which begs the question.
It is not bigoted to abhor a book that promotes hate & violence and to be critical of those that do not denounce it

Robert Spencer, Daniel Pipes, and whole lot of other really smart people believe that a new, moderate Islam is the answer. They truly believe that most Moslems would love to adhere to such a take on their religion. Maybe it's better to denounce a certain translation or interpretation of the Koran, rather than just denouncing the book itself.

I love the bible, but it has been used in the past as justification for horrible evil. Along comes an enlightened leader and bingo, the bible becomes the impetus for the Renaissance. So I like to think that maybe it's not the Koran that's at fault but the Islamic leaders who have their heads in the 8th century.


Ya know what you have a really good attitude and I hope that you are correct.
The problem is that the Koran is viewed as God's literal word.It is not permitted to think that there are any metaphors or allegories.
Anything remotely moderate is abrogated by later suras.
Islam has never had a reformation.That can only happen with a redo on that book

615 mama winger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:13:26pm

Here's an interesting parallel :

Miss. group says Klan is wrong messenger in fight against illegal immigration

October 24, 2007 , Mississippi

A Mississippi-based immigration reform organization says it's appalled that the Ku Klux Klan recently came to a north Mississippi city to criticize what it called the "Latino invasion." The group says opponents of illegal immigration do not need that kind of organization taking up their cause.

[Link: www.onenewsnow.com...]

616 Piglet-U93  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:13:59pm

re: #552 Golem Akbar

You really need to carefully read the Qur'an. It is evil and violent try Craig Winn's analysis of islamic writings.

617 mean Gene  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:15:49pm

Thanks for putting it all in one tight little package and wrapping it up for those inclined to miss what it is, Charles.
Hey, I don't know about all you other SoCal lizards but the air has been 100ppm over the hazardous level here in Long Beach for days now.
I can barely drag myself around.
I'm following doctor's orders and all, but I can imagine that a lot of us will be having breathing problems for some time to come as a result of these fires.
I don't know if you still bike all over the place, Charles, but, if you do, please take care to wait until the air is a lot cleaner.
We want you around for a long time to come.

618 Thanos  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:15:55pm

re: #606 jcm

re: #600 usmc1968


re: #578 jcm
Nore: #578 jcm

, No, Khe Sanh 1968


Hue, Khe Sanh not a lot of difference from what I read. I owe you a beer and a lot more.

We all owe you both a lot more than a beer. Thanks for your honorable service friends.

619 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:17:25pm

re: #565 Timbre

For those who still will not believe how evil he is, and how much he hates Israel and the Jews? I would like to think this might help, but sadly, do not.

A friend sent this a few weeks ago. It is, to me, proof positive,but I already was sure. He is the reason why NY Grampa and I left the demonrats a few months into his first term.

And yet another poster boy for the Nobel.

620 thecapitalist  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:17:35pm

Wow. Far left meets Charles Johnson. Nice ad hominem fallacy at work here. Are you supporting the resolution from the Democrats that condemns the Armenian holocaust?! Or is this not a matter of principle at all...

621 wanumba  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:17:38pm

OT, but related -
see the DRUDGE (and elsewhere) photo of the protester waving her red-covered hands in Secretary of State Dr. Condeeeza Rice's face?

Sick and tired of 1) the Left disrespecting this woman. Let's see them even think to do this to Hillary Clinton and watch the skins get flayed. Cannot see any other excuse for this appalling lack of decorum apart from the fact that this American woman has African ancestors. Even goes beyond the cranked up Left distain for Republicans. They do avoid GOP males who look like they could punch.
Meanwhile, in classic condescending phony impromptu, Hillary murmurs in Essence magazine that hubby gets her ... a giraffe from Africa. How pandering and a watch that reminds her of teeth. Dodges, but hints of toothy necklaces? African gifts for Essence magazine. Gack.

2) the complicity of the Dems in allowing this travesty of security and decorum when hearings are being held.

622 storagemanager  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:18:17pm
North Iraq's Kurds promise fighting back if Turkey invades to hit PKK

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

623 wanumba  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:19:07pm

re: #620 thecapitalist

Wow. Far left meets Charles Johnson. Nice ad hominem fallacy at work here. Are you supporting the resolution from the Democrats that condemns the Armenian holocaust?! Or is this not a matter of principle at all...


Wow. Nice ad hominem fallacy at work here, too!

624 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:20:25pm

re: #621 wanumba

Condi is a State Department wonk, and President Bush's approval of her work will come back to haunt him.

She is just a brighter Madeline NotBright clone, and add Colin Powell to the brew.

625 storagemanager  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:21:15pm

re: #620 thecapitalist

Wow. Far left meets Charles Johnson. Nice ad hominem fallacy at work here. Are you supporting the resolution from the Democrats that condemns the Armenian holocaust?! Or is this not a matter of principle at all...

Like the flag huh?

626 Alouette  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:21:53pm

re: #608 stvip

You just have to realize that the anti-democratic faction within the orthodox religious group is not small, not isolated, and is a grave danger to Israel.

The grave danger to Israel is coming from the anti-democratic elitists and their "peace at any price" appeasement program.

627 Boondock St. Bender  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:22:18pm

re: #620 thecapitalist

Wow. Far left meets Charles Johnson. Nice ad hominem fallacy at work here. Are you supporting the resolution from the Democrats that condemns the Armenian holocaust?! Or is this not a matter of principle at all...

Is a bridge missing its troll?

628 Highrise  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:22:26pm

re: #620 thecapitalist

Wow. Far left meets Charles Johnson. Nice ad hominem fallacy at work here. Are you supporting the resolution from the Democrats that condemns the Armenian holocaust?! Or is this not a matter of principle at all...


Do I have time to pop some popcorn?

629 commander_vimes  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:23:45pm

re: #628 Highrise

doubt it. Looks like it might be a fast burn.

630 storagemanager  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:23:55pm
thecapitalist


-------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------

Registered lizardoid since: Nov 18, 2006 at 2:25 pm

No. of comments posted (since July 26, 2004): 38Show comments within last 7 days

Topic: About Vlaams Belang and Sweden Democrats
Comment #: 0620

631 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:24:18pm

All I want for my 71st birthday, on Inauguration Day, '09, is Rudy as President, and John Bolton as Sec. of State. No gift wrapping or bow required.

632 Ma Sands  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:24:22pm

re: #628 Highrise

I tell ya, I have never craved popcorn as much as I do reading on lgf's threads!


:) --the power of suggestion..... :)

633 MrAndMrsSmith  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:24:30pm

Re: #627 Boondock

More like a village is missing it's idiot.

634 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:25:01pm

re: #620 thecapitalist

Did we interrupt your Nazi party?

635 Mike in Georgia  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:26:31pm

Why does this always happen when it's time for me
to go home? Ah the heck with it, I'll eat a cold supper.

636 Highrise  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:26:44pm

extra butter?

/cackle

637 opnion  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:26:50pm

re: #632 Ma Sands

re: #628 Highrise

I tell ya, I have never craved popcorn as much as I do reading on lgf's threads!


:) --the power of suggestion..... :)

Yeah, you know what it is about popcorn? It's just good . I need some right now

638 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:27:05pm

re: #628 Highrise

Re the popcorn? Depends..JollyTime™ takes 3 min. in the microwave, and Orville Redenbacher™ takes 3 min. 10 sec.

639 storagemanager  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:27:06pm
LONDON (Reuters) - The United States has entered a recession, according to highly-regarded investor Jim Rogers, who told Britain's Daily Telegraph newspaper on Wednesday he was switching out of the dollar and into yen, the yuan and the Swiss franc.

The veteran investor, who predicted the 1999 commodities rally, also said he was still bullish about surging Chinese stock markets despite worries over a bubble.

Fears are growing over the health of the U.S. economy after the fallout from the subprime mortgage market crisis and the global credit crunch it triggered

[Link: www.reuters.com...]

640 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:27:26pm

I can't wait to read Charles' Nazi hatemail.

641 EtNorskTroll  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:27:35pm

re: #620 thecapitalist

Wow. Far left meets Charles Johnson. Nice ad hominem fallacy at work here. Are you supporting the resolution from the Democrats that condemns the Armenian holocaust?! Or is this not a matter of principle at all...

MMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

What's that delicious smell?

/said the Norsk Troll

~ENT

642 stvip  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:27:43pm

re: #626 Alouette

The grave danger to Israel is coming from the anti-democratic elitists and their "peace at any price" appeasement program.

I agree with you (wow?) that's a danger. Not that it is "The Grave Danger". And I don't see how those people are anti-democracy.
Thankfully, the appeasement camp is growing smaller and smaller.

643 leepro  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:27:54pm

OT

More California arson news at Google search "California: arson"

644 Boondock St. Bender  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:28:05pm

apparently the capitalist "tool "has split.(kinda like the loud drunk at the end of the bar)

645 mama winger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:28:27pm

re: #638 NY Nana

re: #628 Highrise

Re the popcorn? Depends..JollyTime™ takes 3 min. in the microwave, and Orville Redenbacher™ takes 3 min. 10 sec.

I never acquired the taste for microwave popcorn. I have a special popcorn pan for on top of the stove. And only real butter.

646 Boondock St. Bender  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:28:45pm

re: #638 NY Nana

dammit now i want popcorn....grrrrrr

647 EtNorskTroll  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:29:22pm

re: #636 Highrise

extra butter?

/cackle

Garlic on mine, thanks!

Were talking about eating the troll, right?

~ENT

648 MrAndMrsSmith  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:29:23pm

Re: #631 NY Nana

All I want for my 71st birthday, on Inauguration Day, '09, is Rudy as President, and John Bolton as Sec. of State. No gift wrapping or bow required.

Hoo-Ah! We'll second that! John Bolton has more balls than all the politicians in DC combined. They're big. They're brass. And Bolton doesn't suffer fools that put other nations aghead of the United States, or her mission of freedom.

(I can't speak to the 71st birthday part. I'm 35; the wife is 21. But we'll take that win anyt day of the week, and seven times on Sunday.) ;)

649 zombie  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:29:58pm

The political goalposts have been shifted so far to the left in this country that people don't even realize it anymore. Ponder:

In 1915, it was perfectly OK for DW Griffith to positively portray the KKK in a mainstream film ("Birth of a Nation").

I think we all agree that was a little too extreme on the "right."

So the society-wide goalposts were shifted leftward, and it was no longer acceptable to whitewash the KKK.

In the 1950's it was considered absolute treason to be a Communist.

People thought that was too extreme, so the goalposts shifted leftward again. McCarthyism was condemned.

In 1968, the "silent majority" looked at the hippies and anti-war protesters with revulsion, and to everyone's shock voted Nixon into office at the height of the counter-culture.

But even that was deemed unacceptable, and the goalposts shifted once again. The '60s were glamorized -- except for Nixon voters, who were reviled.

I won't elucidate every moment in history, but you get the idea. With each watershed, the entire framework was inched ever-further to the left.

And that brings us to 2007. Now, with good reason, it is simply not kosher to be associated with neo-nazi parties and so on.

But wait! No one's looked at the other end of the field. What has happened?

Now, people who are given mainstream kudos, MSM credibility, and cultural immunity can be associated with the most extreme left-wing ideologies imaginable, and no one (except for people like us) dares to say a word. Cindy Sheehan can hang out with stone-cold communist revolutionaries, but that does not damage her reputation. Authors, congressmen, pundits and reporters can repeat slogans, memes and verbiage straight out of Das Kapital or Quotations from Chairman Mao, and no one blinks an eye.

We've reached the point where it is unacceptable to be even vaguely associated with the extreme right, but totally unremarkable to be deeply intertwined with the extreme left.

And this is no accident -- the culture mavens have done this massive political shift on purpose. As a way to foment discontent and eventually bring about a "revolution" that will bring an end (in their minds) to capitalism.

I just find it disconcerting that Charles has to rightfully distance himself from people who have a faint whiff of Nazidom, whereas people at the other side of the political spectrum gleefully and willfully embrace the opposite extreme -- don't suffer politically for it.

We need to contract the parameters of acceptable political discourse to make Marxism and related doctrines be perceived as just as noxious as extreme-rightism.

/rant off

650 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:30:12pm
651 mama winger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:30:25pm

re: #648 MrAndMrsSmith

I'm 35; the wife is 21.

Babies.


There are babies here. :)

652 jcm  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:31:09pm

re: #620 thecapitalist

Wow. Far left meets Charles Johnson. Nice ad hominem fallacy at work here. Are you supporting the resolution from the Democrats that condemns the Armenian holocaust?! Or is this not a matter of principle at all...

The purpose of Pelosi's Resolution condemning Armenian genocide is to strain US / Turkish relations, estranging a ally in the war on terror, and make fighting the war in Iraq more difficult endangering US troops in the process.

It's not about the the Armenian holocaust. It's about BDS run amok in the halls of congress, making the war as difficult as possible, and making the job of POTUS even more difficult than it should be.

The Armenian Holocaust Resolution is dirty politics at its worst.

653 nolocon  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:32:05pm
I love the bible, but it has been used in the past as justification for horrible evil. Along comes an enlightened leader and bingo, the bible becomes the impetus for the Renaissance. So I like to think that maybe it's not the Koran that's at fault but the Islamic leaders who have their heads in the 8th century.

The Renaissance began in the 1300s in Italy, with its roots going back into the previous two centuries ... history is unaware of any single "enlightened leader" who had anything remotely to do with the Renaissance ... rather, it was a broad combination of commerce/trade expansion, stable social systems, wealth concentration, Church formation of universities and sponsorship of science/arts, etc.

Also not certain of any bible passages exhortating the killing of your fellow man.

654 june_july  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:32:45pm

Question: what prompted this posting Charles?

It's been an issue on my mind for some time, and certainly I applaud the sentiments expressed.

655 MrAndMrsSmith  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:33:31pm

Re: #641 ENT

What's that smell? Could it be napalm?

"I love the smell of napalm in the morning. You know, one time we had a hill bombed, for 12 hours. When it was all over, I walked up. We didn't find one of 'em, not one stinkin' dink body. The smell, you know that gasoline smell, the whole hill. Smelled like... victory."

656 goodbye_natalie  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:33:48pm

re: #552 Golem Akbar

I love the bible, but it has been used in the past as justification for horrible evil. Along comes an enlightened leader and bingo, the bible becomes the impetus for the Renaissance. So I like to think that maybe it's not the Koran that's at fault but the Islamic leaders who have their heads in the 8th century.

I don't agree with your premise. While the message of the Old Testament may have been perverted to commit atrocities, the general record of Judeo-Christian heritage is overwhelming positive long before the Renaissance. There is no way the same can be said of the Islamic faith at any period in history.

While I would like to agree with you concerning many practicing Muslims, the fact is that eventually Islam becomes incompatible with any Democracy and will eventually fail in a free republic. Islamic practitioners will not be able to separate a gov't from their faith because their faith is their government. And to that extent, there is no moderation - its their way or the highway and majority does not rule.

657 thecapitalist  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:33:49pm

How is VB not supporting a EU resolution on the Nazi's atrocities different than Republicans not supporting a House Resolution condemning the Armenian genocide?

658 Highrise  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:34:36pm

re: #647 EtNorskTroll

Chopping it up for ya as we speak.

659 Render  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:34:59pm

re: #589 Shiplord Kirel

I like most of Mr. Peters non-fiction work. Most of it.

But he's still got a long ways to go to correct the mistakes he made in and with this 2006 column...

[Link: blogs.usatoday.com...]

Which seems to utterly contradict what he wrote in this 2004 article for Parameters.

[Link: www.carlisle.army.mil...]

Ralph Peters time has passed away, and the war he was trained to fight never happened. He's still very good at what he does, but he will never achieve the stature of a John Keegan or a Basil Liddell-Hart in their day. And he's never come close to the accuracy of James Dunnigan, Austin Bay, and Al Nofi.

We have better, for this war. We would do well to pay more attention to them and the David Kilcullens of this war.

ENCYCLOPEDIA,
R

660 Mike in Georgia  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:36:24pm

Uh Oh It's back.

661 MrAndMrsSmith  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:36:47pm

Re: #651 Mama Winger

Babies.

There are babies here. :)

That we may be, to some. However, these two babies can spank a liberal left and right, regardless of their stated age, like they were a two year old. And when we're done, they usually sound like a two year old throwing a temper tantrum. ;)

662 ZionistYoungster  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:37:28pm

re: #608 stvip

What has been blown out of proportion? The numbers speak for themselves.

What numbers? And what source for those numbers?

This is not about religious vs. secular - it is about anti-democratic anti-liberal (not "Liberal" in the US politics sense) forces versus democratic liberal ones.

Being a religious Jew means that, at the very least, you pray for the coming of the age when the rule of Torah Law returns to the Jewish people on the Land of Israel. After all, according to the religious Jewish view, sipping cups of coffee at restaurants on the eastern coast of the Mediterranean isn't the height of Jewish aspirations, isn't what Jews have prayed for for 2,000 years.

There are those who say the rule of the Torah should be coerced, but I oppose them, because that would only cause internecine warfare (God forbid)--the very reason for the destruction of the Second Temple. But I do most certainly pray and, moreover, look forward to the day that the Third Temple is built.

You just have to realize that the anti-democratic faction within the orthodox religious group is not small, not isolated, and is a grave danger to Israel.

The only grave danger I see is from those who would sell our interests to the Muslims--the corrupt, concessionist government, and the treasonous mainstream media (particularly Haaretz, which should have been shut down long ago) and academe. In that, Israel is little different from any other Western country.

663 mama winger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:38:16pm

re: #661 MrAndMrsSmith

Babies are good. They mean there will be a next generation.

664 jcm  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:38:20pm

re: #657 thecapitalist

See #652.

665 marwan's daughter  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:39:06pm

re: #649 zombie

Make it a well rounded circle. After all, the extremist pricks essentially believe the same thing, with a few minor differences.

666 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:39:37pm

re: #657 thecapitalist

Republicans didn't participate in the Armenian genocide. Republicans don't idolize the Ottoman empire. Republicans don't dress up like young turks to give speeches. Etc.....

667 thecapitalist  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:41:50pm

re: #652 jcm

Various European governments and/or parliaments have condemned the Armenian genocide as well, including those countries that had troops in Iraq.

668 mama winger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:42:10pm

re: #666 Killgore Trout

Republicans don't dress up like young turks to give speeches.

Well sometimes on Halloween I put on my belly dancing costume and rant about Hillary Clinton.

669 cookielady  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:42:42pm

re: #662 ZionistYoungster

Being a religious Jew means that, at the very least, you pray for the coming of the age when the rule of Torah Law returns to the Jewish people on the Land of Israel.

But I do most certainly pray and, moreover, look forward to the day that the Third Temple is built.

Funny, I pray for the same things, and I'm just one of those zionistic fundamentalist Christians! May Hashem always bless His Chosen!

670 Thanos  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:43:00pm

re: #649 zombie

The political goalposts have been shifted so far to the left in this country that people don't even realize it anymore. Ponder:

In 1915, it was perfectly OK for DW Griffith to positively portray the KKK in a mainstream film ("Birth of a Nation").

I think we all agree that was a little too extreme on the "right."

So the society-wide goalposts were shifted leftward, and it was no longer acceptable to whitewash the KKK.

In the 1950's it was considered absolute treason to be a Communist.

People thought that was too extreme, so the goalposts shifted leftward again. McCarthyism was condemned.

In 1968, the "silent majority" looked at the hippies and anti-war protesters with revulsion, and to everyone's shock voted Nixon into office at the height of the counter-culture.

But even that was deemed unacceptable, and the goalposts shifted once again. The '60s were glamorized -- except for Nixon voters, who were reviled.

I won't elucidate every moment in history, but you get the idea. With each watershed, the entire framework was inched ever-further to the left.

And that brings us to 2007. Now, with good reason, it is simply not kosher to be associated with neo-nazi parties and so on.

But wait! No one's looked at the other end of the field. What has happened?

Now, people who are given mainstream kudos, MSM credibility, and cultural immunity can be associated with the most extreme left-wing ideologies imaginable, and no one (except for people like us) dares to say a word. Cindy Sheehan can hang out with stone-cold communist revolutionaries, but that does not damage her reputation. Authors, congressmen, pundits and reporters can repeat slogans, memes and verbiage straight out of Das Kapital or Quotations from Chairman Mao, and no one blinks an eye.

We've reached the point where it is unacceptable to be even vaguely associated with the extreme right, but totally unremarkable to be deeply intertwined with the extreme left.

And this is no accident -- the culture mavens have done this massive political shift on purpose. As a way to foment discontent and eventually bring about a "revolution" that will bring an end (in their minds) to capitalism.

I just find it disconcerting that Charles has to rightfully distance himself from people who have a faint whiff of Nazidom, whereas people at the other side of the political spectrum gleefully and willfully embrace the opposite extreme -- don't suffer politically for it.

We need to contract the parameters of acceptable political discourse to make Marxism and related doctrines be perceived as just as noxious as extreme-rightism.

/rant off

That's a bit simplistic, but forgiven since it's a rant.

It's not the extreme right that's bad -- I love and fully support many of the "far" right's ideas and values, I'm a big proponent of small government, capitalism, freedom, and individual rights, I like protecting families, and freedom to practice religion.

It's the supremacist / racist ideology that's bad to support, because it is directly opposed to the other ideas when you boil it down to essential substance.

So if you are working with folks who are supremacists / racial purists because they also support some of your ideas, that just makes you stupid. Evil always puts on the popular mask of the day, whether the evil's on the left or on the right. We are all adults here, and know the difference.

671 Buckeye Abroad  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:43:19pm

#574 docremulac

Sometimes I think Euro-peons have two switch positions:
stupid-left and stupid-right.

Much as I have my own transgessions toward the EU, lets not turn this into a Euro-hate fest.

672 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:43:21pm

re: #668 mama winger

Stop by my place, I'll give you extra candy for that one.

673 opnion  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:43:29pm

re: #657 thecapitalist

How is VB not supporting a EU resolution on the Nazi's atrocities different than Republicans not supporting a House Resolution condemning the Armenian genocide?

Because Sweden is not at war and dependent on Turkey in order to transit material to the troops.
It is the timing of the resolution, not necessarily the content.
The fight at this moment trumps congressional sensitivity to events that accompanied the break up of the Ottoman Empire. You have to ask why was it so important right now?

674 Render  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:43:42pm

Breaks out calculator...

The Dem's have had 92 years to complain about the Turks ethnic cleansing of Armenians. Their pitifully late resolution made zero mention of the other ethnic cleansing the Turks committed at the very same time, that of the Greeks from Anatolia.

To steal a phrase - I question the timing.

AMONG
OTHER
THINGS,
R

675 marwan's daughter  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:43:55pm

re: #666 Killgore Trout

re: #657 thecapitalist

Republicans didn't participate in the Armenian genocide. Republicans don't idolize the Ottoman empire. Republicans don't dress up like young turks to give speeches. Etc.....

I think he's trying to get Charles for condemning the Democrats resolution to condemn the Armenian Genocide. I don't think Charles said anything about it. But a few other pundits did, and it was really disappointing. Are those on the right reflexively opposed to everything the Dems do, even if it's a good thing. We need that resolution. Turkey is already gone. It's not apparent now, but Turkey is heading down the Islamist craphole.

676 MrAndMrsSmith  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:44:02pm

Re: #663 Mama Winger

If you think I'm good, you haven't seen the wife yet. Despiute the youth, she's a helluva lot smarter than I am, and I do consider her not only my better half, but also my right hand.

(And Lord help us if she gets angry. She's like a little mini-A-bomb that goes off when she gets ticked. "Hell hath no wrath like the fury of a woman scorned?" Screw that. "Scorned" is not a pre-req for her to go after the moonbats and trolls trying to wreck this world.)

677 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:44:29pm
678 nolocon  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:44:41pm

re: #659 Render

679 Boondock St. Bender  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:45:38pm

re: #660 Mike in Georgia

jcm gave it a well deserved swatting on its snout

680 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:45:55pm
681 goodbye_natalie  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:46:31pm

re: #670 Thanos

I would say rather than the goal posts have shifted left, the divide between left and right has widened. And concerning just America, short of the civil war period I can't think of a time that the country was more divided concerning right and wrong, good and evil, than it is now.

682 Render  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:46:53pm

re: #678 nolocon

Yes?

QUIZ,
R

683 marwan's daughter  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:47:08pm

re: #673 opnion

This resolution has been bouncing around in Congress for a few years now. Armenian-Americans have tried so hard to push it and only now did it come to a full-fledged vote. Nothing sinister.

684 jwbaumann  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:47:11pm

I would open a dialog with the Vlaams Belang and the Sweden Democrats in a heartbeat vs. opening one with Iran.

I really, really think an "innocent until proven guilty" attitude is the proper path to follow on this issue.

685 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:48:43pm
686 Highrise  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:48:52pm

re: #683 marwan's daughter

re: #673 opnion

This resolution has been bouncing around in Congress for a few years now. Armenian-Americans have tried so hard to push it and only now did it come to a full-fledged vote. Nothing sinister.

Yeah sure, nothing sinister about the timing, just like the dems trying to force the resolution to reinstate the draft during this wartime to further cause trouble.

687 Thanos  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:49:49pm

re: #657 thecapitalist

How is VB not supporting a EU resolution on the Nazi's atrocities different than Republicans not supporting a House Resolution condemning the Armenian genocide?

Evil wears the popular mask of the day. They try to appear as good, and join popular, good seeming causes to further their aims. (Does this sounds familiar? Getting a clue yet?)

The Armenian genocide was at the dawn of last century, and rightfully should be condemned by all individuals. For the US gov't to condemn it now serves little purpose except to beget more murder between tribes. I know some would like to encourage that, I don't.

On the other hand that white power flag waving at the VLAAMS BELANG rally was waving last month. Nice friends you have there.

688 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:49:57pm
689 goodbye_natalie  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:51:30pm

re: #680 ploome hineni

What part of the Bible did you think people were perverting Ploome if that's crap? I did say "perverting" the message.

690 nemo[deleted]  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:53:10pm
691 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:53:12pm
692 opnion  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:54:19pm

re: #683 marwan's daughter

The Democrats have had majorities before and never felt the need to introduce this resolution.
What is left of Darfur would make more sense.
I have no doubt that the Turks acted very badly during the break up of their empire.
Pelosi and the rest of them knew that the timing would infuriate Turkey & and put their cooperation at risk.The issue for me is to assure that our troops get supplied.I don't care about Turkey except for that.
And yeah, I do see a goccha on Bush

693 goodbye_natalie  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:54:30pm

re: #688 ploome hineni

on second thought, I respond to the assumption you mean that JEWS have comitted atrocities based on the Bible

No Ploome. I intended for that to state people calling themselves Christian took parts of the Old Testament to persecute innocent parties, including Jews. I am not aware of Jews persecuting anybody.

694 nolocon  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:55:44pm
the Bible was NOT the impetus for the Renaissance, in fact it was the opposite
[Link: www.sacred-texts.com...]
WITH the Renaissance, and the impetus it gave at that time to the study of Greek and Roman models, the exclusive domination of Christianity and the Church was broken
wonder where you ever got the idea, that the BIble was the impetus for the Renaissance?

Which explains the danger of relying on obscure websites like "sacred-text.com" as "authority".
The Church was the ONLY centralized and consistent source of funding for the sciences and arts ON PLANET EARTH until ... oh ... the 20th Century. The only other source were wealthy patrons, mostly in Italy, who had profited from trade and commerce assisted in no small part by what event? Oh yeah, the Crusades.
Oh, and where did the "Greek and Roman models" come from? Oh yeah again, the Church. Which had preserved them for 1000 years while the secular world was busy destroying itself and anything remotely looking like civilization.
And where did the first Universities originate? Oh yeah again. The Church, which used its money to set up institutions of higher learning, to concentrate intellectuals and artists, to assist research and to expand knowledge.

Please, use caution before relying on websites that cite long-debunked myths.

695 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:56:07pm
696 Roger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:56:22pm

re: #552 Golem Akbar

So I like to think that maybe

The practical definition of irrationalism.

697 Truumax  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:56:48pm

re: #670 Thanos

Oh, you never figured out the big sham? Nazi ideology isn't "right-wing", it never has been. That's probably the biggest lie that the left has ever gotten away with.

Examine some "extreme right"-groups agendas, and you will find that they have little in common with any classic liberal (the REAL "far right") ideologies. Let's just say that Hitler was never a fan of small government, or freedom of religion. In fact, most of the present "far right"-people are all welfare-this, social engineering-that, and so forth. They called it National Socialism for a reason.

While it is true that Communists and Nazis have always hated each other, they still have more in common with each other than either of them have with any right-wing ideologies. Personally, I've always found the conflict to be more about which gang of thugs are to be in charge.

Remember kids, if you mix Green with Red, you get Brown!

698 wilinsky  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:57:45pm

From Mark Steyn's site today on smoking made legal for Muslims in Vancouver BC, but not for non-Mulsims:

"Let’s zip east another few thousand miles, from Etobicoke to Brussels. The mayor of the city is a rather dreary Belgian leftie called Freddy Thielemans. He is the head of the governing Socialist Party. Of his 17-member caucus, ten are Muslim. Again, Brussels is not majority Muslim. Sure, the most popular baby boy’s name is Mohammed, but then, in western Europe, it would be easier to list the cities where it isn’t. Yet Brussels, the capital of the European Union, already has a Muslim-majority governing party.

It’s been faintly surreal following the recent ructions about the usual instabilities of the Belgian state: Is this it? Are the ancient differences between the Walloons and Flemings about to tear the kingdom apart? Etc, etc. The traditional warring tribes of Belgium are irrelevant to its future. Brussels will be a Muslim city, and so will Antwerp, and Ghent, and even my mum’s quaintly parochial Flemish backwater of St Niklaas. And the disputes of the future will be between Belgian Turks and Belgian Algerians, or Belgian Sunni and Belgian Shia, or some other variant thereof."

Seems to me if the fate of Europe depends on a movement created by Pamela Geller, Robert Spencer, Bat Ye'or, and reps from these two questionable political parties, it's game over.

699 jcm  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:58:19pm

re: #683 marwan's daughter

re: #673 opnion

This resolution has been bouncing around in Congress for a few years now. Armenian-Americans have tried so hard to push it and only now did it come to a full-fledged vote. Nothing sinister.



Krauthammer asks three questions:

There are three relevant questions concerning the Armenian genocide.

(a) Did it happen?

(b) Should the U.S. House of Representatives be expressing itself on this now?

(c) Was House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's determination to bring this to a vote, knowing that it risked provoking Turkey into withdrawing crucial assistance to American soldiers in Iraq, a conscious (columnist Thomas Sowell) or unconscious (blogger Mickey Kaus) attempt to sabotage the U.S. war effort?

The answers are:

(a) Yes, unequivocally.

(b) No, unequivocally.

(c) God only knows.

I don't believe in coincidences in politics. There is a reason Pelosi is pushing this NOW. And it ain't because Pelosi has any regard for the Armenians.

700 ornery elephant  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:00:25pm

Well, this outta go over like a new tax at a Libertarian convention, but when it all comes down to the Final Days against the islamofascism horde...when the battle has been waged for years, perhaps decades...and the streets run deep in blood and gore, our fighters, our people will more than likely be shoulder to shoulder, in that final fight against the islamist jihadists, with people we would have banned from our sight, years earlier.

This isn't going to be an "invitation only" gala. This isn't going to be a war of preference. This ain't gonna be a damn game of tiddly winks. When death stares your family in the face, you aren't gonna question who put a round inbetween the eyes of the jihadist.

701 Truumax  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:02:29pm

re: #694 nolocon

Actually, it was the Ottoman empire that preserved the antique Greek philosophical works. The european church pretty much destroyed every non-bible book they could find back then. That's why no one in europe knew that those ideas even existed for, oh, a thousand years or so.

702 Thanos  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:02:49pm

re: #697 Truumax

re: #670 Thanos

Oh, you never figured out the big sham? Nazi ideology isn't "right-wing", it never has been. That's probably the biggest lie that the left has ever gotten away with.

Examine some "extreme right"-groups agendas, and you will find that they have little in common with any classic liberal (the REAL "far right") ideologies. Let's just say that Hitler was never a fan of small government, or freedom of religion. In fact, most of the present "far right"-people are all welfare-this, social engineering-that, and so forth. They called it National Socialism for a reason.

While it is true that Communists and Nazis have always hated each other, they still have more in common with each other than either of them have with any right-wing ideologies. Personally, I've always found the conflict to be more about which gang of thugs are to be in charge.

Remember kids, if you mix Green with Red, you get Brown!

:)

I figured that out long ago friend. See Here, and Here, here.

703 Charles  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:03:40pm

re: #697 Truumax

re: #670 Thanos

Oh, you never figured out the big sham? Nazi ideology isn't "right-wing", it never has been. That's probably the biggest lie that the left has ever gotten away with.

Examine some "extreme right"-groups agendas, and you will find that they have little in common with any classic liberal (the REAL "far right") ideologies. Let's just say that Hitler was never a fan of small government, or freedom of religion. In fact, most of the present "far right"-people are all welfare-this, social engineering-that, and so forth. They called it National Socialism for a reason.

While it is true that Communists and Nazis have always hated each other, they still have more in common with each other than either of them have with any right-wing ideologies. Personally, I've always found the conflict to be more about which gang of thugs are to be in charge.

Remember kids, if you mix Green with Red, you get Brown!

In my opinion, the Nazis were really neither "right" nor "left." They were thugs and monsters, addicted to power for its own sake, and the political angles were afterthoughts -- mechanisms by which they manipulated the German public.

704 lennysquiggy  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:03:58pm

I imagine if an alien death cult had descended from outer space in 1939, the Nazis would have fought them. It wouldn't have made the Nazis right. They still would have been evil SOBs in need of a major ass-kicking.

This is no different. White supremacists fighting an evil death cult doesn't change the fact that they are both evil SOBs. And it doesn't mean that anyone in the anti-Islamofascist camp supports evil SOBs.

705 mama winger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:04:40pm

re: #701 Truumax

re: #694 nolocon

Actually, it was the Ottoman empire that preserved the antique Greek philosophical works. The european church pretty much destroyed every non-bible book they could find back then. That's why no one in europe knew that those ideas even existed for, oh, a thousand years or so.

That's not even close to being true.

706 mama winger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:05:18pm

Not even close.

707 nemo  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:08:09pm

re: #697 Truumax

re: #670 Thanos
Oh, you never figured out the big sham? Nazi ideology isn't "right-wing", it never has been. That's probably the biggest lie that the left has ever gotten away with.

Nazism = Socialism + Nationalism + Totalitarianism = A Leftist ideology

A leftist accusing a conservative, in the US, of being a Nazi is always an indication of the true ignorance of the accuser. A Nazi would be run out of town on a rail if he expressed his opinions at a gathering of conservatives.

708 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:11:38pm

re: #648 MrAndMrsSmith

Uh, our 'baby' is 35!

Seriously, I agree totally re John Bolton. I think he would probably get rid of 95% of the wonks that can be thrown out in the trash, and bring in real people rather than clones.

I admired President Bush for having the courage to appoint him for an interim appointment to the evil U.N., when the donks threw a tantrum out of fear, but wish that he had been President Bush's first choice as Sec. of State.

It might have been a very different world.

BBL

709 wanumba  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:14:11pm

re: #624 NY Nana

re: #621 wanumba
Condi is a State Department wonk, and President Bush's approval of her work will come back to haunt him.
She is just a brighter Madeline NotBright clone, and add Colin Powell to the brew.


That does not excuse the loutish and threatening behavior of those professional protestors. They should be banned from all such meetings, hearing, everything. They are NOT John Q PUblic. How many of us go to a meeting and have to run a gauntlet like that? The Dems are enabling this sort of phony photo-op. WHat happens when someone a little more unhinged than a cool professional agitator gets a bit hot in the middle of the stunt and goes for her? Does Rice have to be hurt before people realize how dispicable this has become? Is that fair to her? Who out there cares about her? This is about Rice as a person, deserving of basic respect and the Office of the Secretary of State. THAT photo is on Drudge - now it will be broadcast all over the world TO our ENEMIES for propaganda who will wave it around to laugh at her, and the State Dept and by extention the President and the USA. Disagree with decorum, not spit. By this, the Left enables our enemies during a time of war.

710 Charles  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:16:03pm

Wow, I'm getting a real barrage of email from people telling me:

* I'm an idiot

* I'm a shallow, cowardly idiot with no balls

* I'm a closet leftist girlyman

* I've been played by openly leftist girlymen

* I'm a complete fucking idiot who should just shut up

* I'm a moron and I've always been a moron, and this just confirms it

...and a few emails from VB members who sound like reasonable people.

I'm sure there are reasonable people in the Vlaams Belang, in fact I know there are. But that's not the issue for me. The issue is spelled out clearly (I think) in my post above.

And I really don't care whether expo.se or the blog I linked are "leftist" sites. The information checks out to be true.

The crazy, vindictive nature of a lot of the responses I've gotten has gone a long way toward convincing me that I wasn't off-base.

711 Truumax  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:17:05pm

re: #703 Charles

The parallels between the two are striking though. From a personal observation, I've always found it intriguing when watching extreme political youth organisations, and how easy it seems to be for people to jump ship between socialist and nazi groups from day to day.

Again, if you look at the Sweden Democrats, most political analysts are pretty much in agreement that their surge in voters came from the left block, not the right. Evidence: at the same time that the SD got their huge jump in support, the right-wing block won the election after ten years of left-wing rule.

I do agree with you that the german Nazi party was more about murder than it was about policy, but my point remains: calling nazi ideology a "far-right ideology" has never been true.

Oh, and Thanos: More power to ya

712 Shemesh  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:19:08pm

I'm very late to this thread (obviously) so doubt anyone will read this post - but Charles, if you do, you have my complete respect for disassociating LGF from these neo-Nazis.

713 Truumax  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:19:23pm

re: #710 Charles

Interestingly enough, that's the most common defence presented by neo-nazi groups in Sweden when confronted: "Your information comes from communists, so you know it has to be false."

714 wanumba  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:20:58pm

NAZI were LEft, alongside the communists. They believed in state control.
Does anyone really know what "right" means or do we all run on assumptions? "Nationalist" butts heads against American "conservatism" so the "right-wing" conservative is actually putting two opposing positions together.

Time for a better nomenclature. The Left uses this purposely to confuse debates.

715 mama winger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:21:29pm

re: #710 Charles

Wow, I'm getting a real barrage of email from people telling me:

* I'm an idiot

* I'm a shallow, cowardly idiot with no balls

* I'm a closet leftist girlyman

* I've been played by openly leftist girlymen

* I'm a complete fucking idiot who should just shut up

* I'm a moron and I've always been a moron, and this just confirms it


Somehow they glossed over the fact that you work for Halliburton.

:)

716 Render  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:21:43pm

The Euro-neo-nazi's are desperate.

The American neo-nazi's are not, yet.

Assuming David Duke and his fellow thugs are even aware of the direction that VB and SD are attempting to go in, I imagine they aren't real happy about it.

I know that much of the AB membership isn't real happy about Duke's "sudden" alliance with what AB, and he, once called "mud people."

SCHISMS,
R

717 ornery elephant  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:22:41pm

re: #507 experiencedtraveller

OT: When did Carol Herman get banned? Was it something egregious or just a creeping annoyance?

Well, since I am on a couple of other blogs where Carol Herman posts and I have NEVER seen her attack anyone and usually is very complimentary of the blog owner, I'd say it has something to do with the fact that when some people are attacked/criticized/madefunof by others, they, at times, don't handle it well.

I don't agree with the way Carol escalated things but it all came down to some initial shots at her from long timers here. Would I have reacted like Carol? No. But bottom line is in the scheme of things, she reacted.

Hatchlings come to LGF...some stay, some leave, some get banned. But to get banned because of originally defending themselves is unfortunate, in my eyes.

I love LGF because of the diverse opinions, backgrounds, faiths and perceptions. It is what makes this blog what it is (besides Charles direction, of course). But I'm hoping that I will catch myself next time that, out of boredom, I criticize someone's post because it is:

a) too wordy
b) not necessarily coherent
c) in conflict with my idea of an "ideal" LGF post

It's over and finished and I'm not even bashing the banning - it had escalated to that, unfortunately. But hopefully, when someone new wants to share some of their ideas here, tolerance might prevail. How bloody tough is it to scroll over a comment you don't like?

718 Render  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:23:54pm

re: #710 Charles

For whatever it's worth...

As long as you stand where you are, I will stand right beside you.

FROZEN
HELL,
R

719 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:24:23pm

re: #710 Charles

I didn't think was was of importance at the time but I think part of the reason for the zealous reaction is that they were starting to gain in Europe and are hoping to expand here in America....
Vlaams Belang in the USA

In February, representatives of Vlaams Belang, an anti-immigrant ultra-nationalist party from Belgium, traveled to the United States to meet with American white nationalist and anti-immigrant groups.

On February 22, Vlaams Belang leaders held a meeting with the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), the oldest and most influential anti-immigrant group in the country. The next evening they also spoke at a forum organized by the "Robert A. Taft Club" in the Arlington, Virginia suburb of Washington, D.C.


They hate daylight.

720 Charles  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:24:24pm

However ... I've also received more emails from supporters than detractors, people who have thanked me for bringing this subject to light and trying to be fair about it. Some of those emails have been from people whose names would be recognized, and I'm very gratified to have their support.

What a hornet's nest of an issue this is. But then, I love sticking my face into hornet's nests. We close leftist girlymen with no balls are like that.

721 Render  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:26:52pm

re: #717 ornery elephant

I scrolled over an awful lot of comments of hers. Until I could take no more of the outright lies.

When I provided documented facts to support my point, she went ballistic.

I'm still here, Carol Herman is not.

FACTS
WIN,
R

722 ZionistYoungster  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:28:03pm

re: #710 Charles

Let's all avoid taking a stand, let's all be wishy-washy. Then no one would ever hold anything against us. Not sure how history would remember us then, if it would remember us at all, but nah! Who cares about stupid things like that?

Sarc-tag goes without saying. Congrats, Charles. You did something I don't think I have the guts to do myself. And though the Leftists on Big Orange Screwballs (a.k.a Daily Kos) will keep spouting their standard lie of calling LGF a "fascist site", the truth is out that LGF is as far removed from both Stormfront (white supremacist racists) and the Nation of Islam (black supremacist, Leftist, Muslim racists) as can be.

723 Roger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:28:43pm

re: #710 Charles

lol! If you could only figure out how to pull all that out of the digital world you could sell it as highly enriched organic, um, fertilizer:-)

724 Beagle  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:28:48pm

re: #657 thecapitalist

How is VB not supporting a EU resolution on the Nazi's atrocities different than Republicans not supporting a House Resolution condemning the Armenian genocide?


There's no risk of actual war breaking out today as a result.

In case that's not clear, the modern Turks felt angry enough to declare war on Iraq (the Kurds) and start shelling, well, today.

Next question?

725 nolocon  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:28:50pm

re: #701 Truumax

re: #694 nolocon

Actually, it was the Ottoman empire that preserved the antique Greek philosophical works. The european church pretty much destroyed every non-bible book they could find back then. That's why no one in europe knew that those ideas even existed for, oh, a thousand years or so.


Yikes.
Mythology/propaganda filter on full alert.

726 Jimmah  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:29:33pm

re: #700 ornery elephant

Well, this outta go over like a new tax at a Libertarian convention, but when it all comes down to the Final Days against the islamofascism horde...when the battle has been waged for years, perhaps decades...and the streets run deep in blood and gore, our fighters, our people will more than likely be shoulder to shoulder, in that final fight against the islamist jihadists, with people we would have banned from our sight, years earlier.

This isn't going to be an "invitation only" gala. This isn't going to be a war of preference. This ain't gonna be a damn game of tiddly winks. When death stares your family in the face, you aren't gonna question who put a round inbetween the eyes of the jihadist.

I think it would be altogether better if the Nazis joined with the Jihadists - that way when the 'Final fight' comes we can put bullets between both lot's eyes. How's that sound?

727 ornery elephant  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:29:58pm

re: #721 Render

re: #717 ornery elephant

I scrolled over an awful lot of comments of hers. Until I could take no more of the outright lies.

When I provided documented facts to support my point, she went ballistic.

I'm still here, Carol Herman is not.

FACTS
WIN,
R

That you are Render, and that's a good thing.

I'll try to remember not to disagree with your facts.

728 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:30:26pm
729 ornery elephant  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:31:11pm

re: #726 Jimmah

re: #700 ornery elephant


Well, this outta go over like a new tax at a Libertarian convention, but when it all comes down to the Final Days against the islamofascism horde...when the battle has been waged for years, perhaps decades...and the streets run deep in blood and gore, our fighters, our people will more than likely be shoulder to shoulder, in that final fight against the islamist jihadists, with people we would have banned from our sight, years earlier.

This isn't going to be an "invitation only" gala. This isn't going to be a war of preference. This ain't gonna be a damn game of tiddly winks. When death stares your family in the face, you aren't gonna question who put a round inbetween the eyes of the jihadist.


I think it would be altogether better if the Nazis joined with the Jihadists - that way when the 'Final fight' comes we can put bullets between both lot's eyes. How's that sound?


I'm all for that Jimmah.

730 goodbye_natalie  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:31:27pm

re: #695 ploome hineni

what message if the 'old testament'

maybe it was the message of the Gospels?

Well, the message of the Gospels is salvation so I'm not exactly sure what you mean other than you've thrown this argument up more times than I can count.

Fruitless to argue since we are never going to see eye to eye. But if you're interested in the real history of the Crusades, warts and all and concise, here's the best article I've read.

[Link: www.crisismagazine.com...]

731 wanumba  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:31:45pm

re: #695 ploome hineni

re: #689 goodbye_natalie
#656

I don't agree with your premise. While the message of the Old Testament may have been perverted to commit atrocities, the general record of Judeo-Christian heritage is overwhelming positive long before the Renaissance. There is no way the same can be said of the Islamic faith at any period in history.

what message if the 'old testament'
maybe it was the message of the Gospels?


The Beatitudes. (Matthew 5)
This Sermon on the Mount sums up all the teachings of the New Testament.
Blessed are those who are poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven,
Blessed are those who mourn for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who thirst for righteousness for they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers for they will be called the sons of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.
Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in this way they persecuted the prophets who were before you."

732 mama winger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:32:39pm

re: #701 Truumax

Not trying to be hard on you friend, really. Here's a book you might like -

How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization

It might help you understand the underpinnings of Western culture, and how they were preserved, protected and encouraged under the Church's direction. It's very readable too.

BTW - I appreciate your insights from Sweden, thanks for that :)

733 Thanos  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:32:44pm

re: #713 Truumax

re: #710 Charles

Interestingly enough, that's the most common defence presented by neo-nazi groups in Sweden when confronted: "Your information comes from communists, so you know it has to be false."


It's the self same defense that the ND is using in the debates with Daniel Poohl (who's probably a Marxist, but he knows his nazis...) on youtube.

734 Geepers  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:34:16pm

Killgore Trout (#666),

Republicans didn't participate in the Armenian genocide. Republicans don't idolize the Ottoman empire. Republicans don't dress up like young turks to give speeches. Etc.....

Sucinctly put.

735 Roger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:34:25pm

There is no such thing as an Old Testament

736 Truumax  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:35:20pm

re: #705 mama winger

I really hate quoting Wikipedia, but right now I'm kinda tired and don't really have the energy to find a more bulletproof source (it's middle of the night here in Sweden). I hope you can be ok with this as the main defence of my statement for now. Anyhoo, on the Wikipedia page for Aristotle:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

"After the Roman period, Aristotle's works were by and large lost to the West for a second time. They were, however, preserved in the East by various Muslim scholars and philosophers, many of whom wrote extensive commentaries on his works. Aristotle lay at the foundation of the falsafa movement in Islamic philosophy, stimulating the thought of Al-Farabi, Ibn Sina, Ibn Rushd and others.

As the influence of the falsafa grew in the West, in part due to Gerard of Cremona's translations and the spread of Averroism, the demand for Aristotle's works grew. William of Moerbeke translated a number of them into Latin. When Thomas Aquinas wrote his theology, working from Moerbeke's translations, the demand for Aristotle's writings grew and the Greek manuscripts returned to the West, stimulating a revival of Aristotelianism in Europe."

Namedropping Thomas Aquinas means that we're talking about the mid-twelvehundreds, so that gives a pretty accurate time frame for what I said. And Aristotelian philosophy is considered a huge player in bringing about the Renaissance.

737 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:35:34pm

re: #734 Geepers

Although MamaWinger did offer to put on a bellydancer costume.

738 wanumba  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:36:21pm

re: #631 NY Nana

All I want for my 71st birthday, on Inauguration Day, '09, is Rudy as President, and John Bolton as Sec. of State. No gift wrapping or bow required.


Now THAT's a frisky woman!

739 mama winger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:36:46pm

re: #736 Truumax

See my post above at 732.

I realize you are tired - we will have this discussion another day, eh ? :)

740 rightymouse  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:36:47pm

re: #719 Killgore Trout

re: #710 Charles

I didn't think was was of importance at the time but I think part of the reason for the zealous reaction is that they were starting to gain in Europe and are hoping to expand here in America....
Vlaams Belang in the USA


In February, representatives of Vlaams Belang, an anti-immigrant ultra-nationalist party from Belgium, traveled to the United States to meet with American white nationalist and anti-immigrant groups.

On February 22, Vlaams Belang leaders held a meeting with the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), the oldest and most influential anti-immigrant group in the country. The next evening they also spoke at a forum organized by the "Robert A. Taft Club" in the Arlington, Virginia suburb of Washington, D.C.


They hate daylight.

That's pretty much what I've presumed from all of the information posted in the last two days. The root of VB's position/advocacy looks very much to be white nationalism.

Charles has been absolutely correct to take a step back regarding this group.

I guess that makes me a girly-girl.

741 nolocon  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:36:53pm

re: #724 Beagle

re: #657 thecapitalist


How is VB not supporting a EU resolution on the Nazi's atrocities different than Republicans not supporting a House Resolution condemning the Armenian genocide?

There's no risk of actual war breaking out today as a result.

In case that's not clear, the modern Turks felt angry enough to declare war on Iraq (the Kurds) and start shelling, well, today.

Next question?

By your logic, the World's response to the Holocaust would need to be muted ... or silenced ... were Germany to issue threats of retaliation.

Sorry ... the fact that the Armenian Genocide lacks the kind of public consciousness (read, PR) of the Nazi Genocide should not excuse our ongoing handwringing over Turkey throwing a temper tantrum over its past evils ... nor our ongoing urination on the graves of Armenian victims of Muslim oppression.

742 Render  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:37:08pm

re: #727 ornery elephant

:)

If you have documentation or other proof that shows where I'm wrong on the subjects which I tend to write about, I'll gladly accept it as a lesson learned and move on with my newfound knowledge.

I think therein might be the difference.

THOUGHT,
R

743 mama winger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:37:26pm

re: #737 Killgore Trout

re: #734 Geepers

Although MamaWinger did offer to put on a bellydancer costume.

You betcha doncha know

744 pegcity  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:39:36pm

re: #621 wanumba

745 Truumax  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:41:34pm

re: #739 mama winger

I'm cool with that.

746 wanumba  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:43:55pm

re: #744 pegcity

re: #621 wanumba


+ or - ?
(;-D)

748 Beagle  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:44:27pm

#741 nolocon

By your logic, the World's response to the Holocaust would need to be muted ... or silenced ... were Germany to issue threats of retaliation.


Modern Turks committed the Armenian genocide?

More to the point: how many Kurds are you willing to have killed to make your rhetorical point?

What's your exit strategy for the war with Turkey you want to enflame?

There's a time and a place for everything. This is the worst possible time to bring up the Armenian genocide. And that's why they did it now. Do you not get that, or are you being intentionally bellicose?

I'm reminded of Lincoln's comment to one of his cabinet when he suggested war with England: "One war at a time, Mr. Seward."

749 Truumax  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:45:08pm

re: #733 Thanos

I'm not at all surprised. One of the few times the ND have been allowed to speak their case on television, and man, did they look bad. Furious little twerps who thought they could gain respect by staring angrily at their opponents and talk with loud voices.

750 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:47:07pm
751 experiencedtraveller  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:48:05pm

re: #693 goodbye_natalie

re: #688 ploome hineni


on second thought, I respond to the assumption you mean that JEWS have comitted atrocities based on the Bible

No Ploome. I intended for that to state people calling themselves Christian took parts of the Old Testament to persecute innocent parties, including Jews. I am not aware of Jews persecuting anybody.

Hey what? Are you confining this statement to the old testament? Because "The Acts of the Apostles and the epistles also testify to severe Jewish persecution of the Apostolic Church. (See Acts 4; 5; 7; 8; 9; 12:1f; 13:42-51; 14:2-5; 14:19; 14:22; 17; 18; 23-26; 24:1-5; Galatians 4:29; 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16.)"

http://www.rbc.org/bible_study/answers_to_tough_qu estions/answers/47969.aspx

752 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:48:39pm
753 MigueldowninMexico  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:48:56pm

Ok here I go.
If I step on someone's toes, I'm sorry.

I don't like Pamela. We had a row like two years ago. I find her vulgar and offensive quite often.
But above all, she hates Catholics and she hates Mexicans.
And as I am a Mexican Catholic, I'm not used to befriend people who hate me.

STILL...I would never thought that she would go after someone like Charles who does such a thourough research of everything before he posts it on his blog. Charles is worth a hundred Pamelas. I'm sorry but this is the truth.

Yes, this is an interested and opinionated comment.
I don't like people who hate me.

754 Beagle  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:50:19pm

Really though, it doesn't matter now. The Kurds are screwed. The Turks are rapidly descending to Islamist governance. They're not even close to allies any more. Like so much of the rest of the world, we're just waiting for the spark to get the shooting war going.

755 zuckerlilly  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:51:54pm

re: #720 Charles

Charles, thank you for the wise and politcal sensitive decission. We don´t want to be hijacked by right-wing extremists. It would destroy everything you build up in the last years and you stand for.

756 m  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:52:19pm

{Ornery E} ~:)

That scroll-over thingie comes harder for some than others and I say that from experience. I wish I would have learned to do it years ago. It would have saved me from a boat load of bullshit & drama (not to mention the effect on the blood pressure).

I finally perfected it :) So much so that I had to find out 3rd party that it happened to Herman.

BUT ~after saying that... it seems like a person's attitude and demeanor rubs off on other posters. If someone thinks they have all the answers to everything it sends a "kick me" vibe to those reading.

#742 Render

I think therein might be the difference.

THOUGHT,
R

MY THOUGHT
TOO,
M

757 mama winger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:52:25pm

re: #753 MigueldowninMexico

You're Mexican ?

/

758 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:53:03pm

OT: Foxnews..a press conference soon from the FBI..one of the fires, Santiago, is arson.

759 MigueldowninMexico  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:53:47pm

re: #757 mama winger

re: #753 MigueldowninMexico

You're Mexican ?

/

ROFL!

760 mama winger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:53:49pm

re: #758 NY Nana

I thought it was global warming.

761 wong fei hung  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:53:58pm

Chick in the Gestapo pants looks like she's smuggling plums.

Anyhow, last night, I heard George Carlin doing the old "Hitler Has Only Got One Ball" routine. To the tune of the "Colonel Bogey March" from Bridge On The River Kwai.

Altogether now:

Hitler has only got one ball,
Goring has two but very small,
Himmler is somewhat sim'lar,
But poor old Goe-balls has no balls at all!

762 rightymouse  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:54:58pm

re: #753 MigueldowninMexico

I've found her to be vulgar as well. Not an attractive or credible quality in a person - male or female - especially when one is in the public eye and wants to be taken seriously.

763 Buckeye Abroad  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:55:12pm

#703 Charles

In my opinion, the Nazis were really neither "right" nor "left." They were thugs and monsters, addicted to power for its own sake, and the political angles were afterthoughts -- mechanisms by which they manipulated the German public.

Read this book "Mao: The Unknown Story"

Same story, just different location.

764 MigueldowninMexico  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:56:42pm

re: #762 rightymouse

re: #753 MigueldowninMexico

I've found her to be vulgar as well. Not an attractive or credible quality in a person - male or female - especially when one is in the public eye and wants to be taken seriously.

Yeah.

765 mama winger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:57:01pm

re: #763 Buckeye Abroad

They were thugs and monsters, addicted to power for its own sake, and the political angles were afterthoughts -- mechanisms by which they manipulated the German public.

Substitute "American" for "German" and I'll show you a power couple making a move to get back into the White House.

766 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:57:21pm

re: #760 mama winger

/We have to wait for the press conference. Maybe Albore will give the news.

What a sick bastard that would do that. I think whoever it was should be [deleted].

767 Highrise  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:57:22pm

re: #717 ornery elephant


But to get banned because of originally defending themselves is unfortunate, in my eyes.


While I don't disagree with what you wrote in the rest of your post in general terms, I think the above statement isn't fair to Charles' decision on why he banned her.

Sometimes people are not who they seem. After all, this is the internet, they can change over time, their motives can become more clear, and they can do things that seem like they weren't capable of.....case in point, atlas and her still no apology blog smear on charles.

768 m  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 4:59:39pm

re: #764 MigueldowninMexico
re: #762 rightymouse

Dang- Uh oh- so I can't make reference to AC/DC's

WHO'S GOT THE BIGGEST
BALLS OF THEM ALL

to Wong's comment?

/shoot!

769 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 5:02:25pm

re: #759 MigueldowninMexico

/¿Hablas Español?

770 rightymouse  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 5:02:37pm

re: #768 m

Hi there 'm'. :)

771 MigueldowninMexico  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 5:03:32pm

re: #768 m

re: #764 MigueldowninMexico
re: #762 rightymouse

Dang- Uh oh- so I can't make reference to AC/DC's

WHO'S GOT THE BIGGEST
BALLS OF THEM ALL

to Wong's comment?

/shoot!

? ? ? ?

772 MigueldowninMexico  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 5:04:41pm

re: #769 NY Nana

re: #759 MigueldowninMexico

/¿Hablas Español?

Hahahahaha Nana.
I'm being teased in such a funny and lovely way.
LOL

773 Buckeye Abroad  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 5:05:34pm

#765 mama winger

Substitute "American" for "German" and I'll show you a power couple making a move to get back into the White House.

The "beast" loses in the end. Have faith.

774 Roger  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 5:07:56pm

re: #765 mama winger

Substitute "American" for "German" and I'll show you a power couple who doesn't couple making a move to get back into the White House.

Editing for tfk

775 MigueldowninMexico  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 5:07:56pm

re: #773 Buckeye Abroad

#765 mama winger

Substitute "American" for "German" and I'll show you a power couple making a move to get back into the White House.

The "beast" loses in the end. Have faith.

No way the US will become a Nazi Germany or anything similar.

No way Mexico becomes one, either Communist or Nazi, much less the USA.

Yes, the beast will be cast in the lake of fire per omnia saecula saeculorum. ;)

776 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 24, 2007 5:09:11pm