it's so refreshing to see both sides treated fairly

re: #1 friarstale

it's so refreshing to see both sides treated fairly

Indeed, this is how discussions should be. But I guess it's part of human nature to have... uncivilised discussion. Tribal mentality, ego, all that stuff.

When I need a sauna, I'll call Sweden..... who cares if they elect their own asswarts?

...kidnap Israeli soldiers...

The first document, quoted above, obviously calls for Sweden to take an active stance against Israel for it's actions in Lebanon.

...At least, that's how Media Matters could spin it.

re: #3 ointmentfly

Because they've become active in the Anti jihad movement and some of the American right are starting to embrace them as friends.

It's good to see that there are political factions in the world that can try to show their stance and prove their points in an attempt convince, instead of insulting and browbeating you into submission like it is in politics here in the good ole USA.

I don't even pretend to understand the European mind-set. We should look askance at dubious credentials but not throw the baby out........Guess I'll just fence-sit for the time being and keep watching, listening and reading. However we don't need Charles and Pamela going at it hammer and tong.

Tom

re: #7 marinetb

I don't even pretend to understand the European mind-set. We should look askance at dubious credentials but not throw the baby out........Guess I'll just fence-sit for the time being and keep watching, listening and reading. However we don't need Charles and Pamela going at it hammer and tong.

Tom

yep - dissension in the ranks is good so long as it knows when to cease and desist for the sake of peace.

re: #6 Sponge

Yup. Too bad we're talking about Nazis here.

Does anyone else have a problem opening these in Word? If not, I'm confused, because I've got Word up, and they're not loading.

I'm a bit frustrated.

From this, Swedish Democrats look acceptable but I can't get those nazi costumes out of my mind. It is true that the party leaders banned them, but why were members wearing them in the first place?

Vlaams Belang is an easier call, it is a skinhead gang until proven otherwise.

re: #9 Pro-Bush Canuck

re: #6 Sponge

Yup. Too bad we're talking about Nazis here.

That's true too - slippery slope...

re: #9 Pro-Bush Canuck

Agreed.....it's propaganda, but at least they were nice about it.

/I hate Illinois democrats nazis....

From the documents, it appears that they are normal (i.e. not racist or nazi) people. However, these documents may just be clever attempts to allay fears and garner support. I wish to see and learn more before I accept them as friends. Unfortunately, I don't know Swedish.

That said, I would also note that LGF also gets labeled—misnomers are often applied to us.

It is easy enough to convert them all to small PDF files.

From the last PDF.....

Most of these mistakes were made between the years of 1991 and 1994. During these years the party was temporarily radicalised due to bad leadership and the fact that the anti-immigration, populist party “Ny Demokrati” (New Democracy), was formed, reached the national parliament and drained our party on most of its more established members.
The worst of these mistakes was that the party didn’t distance itself from radical youths with sub cultural looks and that these were allowed to participate in some of the party demonstrations.
In 1995 New Democracy collapsed and the Sweden Democrats elected a new party leader. Since then we have been working very hard to distance ourselves from all forms of extremism, to learn from our mistakes and to change our image.
Today the Sweden Democrats are a totally different party than it was between 1991 and 1994. Almost all members from those years have left the party or have been kicked out and all members of the national board joined the party after that period.

Then why has their representative to the city council giving a speech at a rally in front of a Nazi flag in 1996?

re: #7 marinetb

However we don't need Charles and Pamela going at it hammer and tong.

Tom

I don't think it's fair to equate Charles' response to Pamela's accusation that LGF is bedfellows with CAIR.

re: #10 Dianna

So far they are all opening for me.

re: #19 mj

If Pamela thinks LGF is "bedfellows" with CAIR, well she should change the bong water ASAP.

The .doc files open fine in Abiword.

All joking aside, the documents above appear to be pretty cut and dry. However, it to me smacks of saying what you think others want to hear - not in the actual content of the letters, but the specific selection of topics they cover. If someone looked hard enough, they can probably find a few examples from any individual or organization that are rational responses that state the situation as you agree with. However, such a small portion, as above, would not convince me one way or the other (especially given that the dates for some of the documents are a few years old).

My personal opinion is to accept it with a grain of salt.

Right wing European parties are not like right wing American parties, and Charles is right to be leery of associating with them.

Not really interested in reading their literature.

This is all bullshit. why would a Nazi organization have so much English literature about how they're not really Nazis on hand?
These guys are worse than Vlaams.

re: #21 Pro-Bush Canuck

re: #19 mj

If Pamela thinks LGF is "bedfellows" with CAIR, well she should change the bong water ASAP.

yeppers!

They're all, self serving press releases.

We are sadly aware of that a few members, like in other parties, had said and done things that do not comply to the party politics. [...] But from the start the party has withheld it’s democratic, peaceful and non-racist ways which easily can be checked by reading the older party programs.

Why does that have an eerily familiar ring to it, remind anyone of another group?

On the other hand, unlike that other group:

However, we will not hide the fact that we have made serious mistakes in our past that have made it a lot easier for our opponents to put these labels on us.

Most of these mistakes were made between the years of 1991 and 1994. During these years the party was temporarily radicalised due to bad leadership and the fact that the anti-immigration,
populist party “Ny Demokrati” (New Democracy), was formed, reached the national parliament and drained our party on most of its more established members.

At least they're talking the talk.

The main objectives of the Sweden Democrats are to:

Restore the sense of a common identity in Sweden
through reduced immigration, a strengthening of the
Swedish culture and the abolishment of multiculturalism in
favour of assimilation.

Strengthen traditional values, Christian ethics, the nuclear family and the sovereignty of the Swedish state.

. . .

/definitely not what we'd call democrats and too far to the militant right for my particular tastes

When I need a sauna, I'll call Sweden..... who cares if they elect their own asswarts?

That's Finland. Sweden's gift to the world is Ikea.

Do they only want us to read articles that put them in a positive light only? You know how they say talk is cheap.

re: #5 Killgore Trout

Maybe we ought to adopt the old arab adage - the enemy of my enemy is my friend - with regard to the possible skinhead wing of the party. What are the chances they would have time to mobilize against the Jews when they will obviously have their hands full with the tidal wave of your muslims....?

So, is this truth or propaganda?

YOU be the judge.....

“The Sweden Democrats rejects Nazism, who’s lead motive is the “Führer”, “racial superiority” and aggressive war [...]”
The party action program for democratic development reads:
“Just as the name implies, the Sweden Democrats hails democracy as a form of government and firmly rejects antidemocratic movements, such as Nazism, Fascism and Communism.”

re: #26 Killgore Trout

Excellent point.

The Bjorn Documents if not all of them... Where's the official party logo? Where are the markings? Where's the signature?

It looks suspect to me. Nothing about these documents appear to be official documents.

re: #4 Kailen

When Palestinians kidnap Israeli soldiers and Hizbollah attacks army posts on Israeli soil it is clear that Israel should have the right to defend it self according the principle of self defense.

Not that one from the first one?

re: #32 ointmentfly
young muslims....not 'your' muslims.......good cabernet flowing here.....

All right. It's a little strange to me that the two parties even need to so strenuously to distance themselves from Nazism. Even so, they do make the effort. So we've got two conflicting messages, here:

1) In this post they say, "We're not Nazis, don't like Nazis, weren't founded by Nazis..." and so on. Yet,

2) In a previous post they said, "Yeah, we don't wear the Nazi uniforms anymore."

So... which is it?

Frankly I'm a lazy citizen and I don't have a lot of free time on my hands. So anybody with a whiff of Nazism about them gets summarily tossed out of my mind. There are too many good and decent and unquestionably non-Nazi allies out there.

How bizarre, to even say such an obvious thing...

re: #32 ointmentfly

re: #5 Killgore Trout

Maybe we ought to adopt the old arab adage - the enemy of my enemy is my friend - with regard to the possible skinhead wing of the party. What are the chances they would have time to mobilize against the Jews when they will obviously have their hands full with the tidal wave of your muslims....?

So you're saying we should lower ourselves to be just as debased, evil and dishonest as our enemy? Why fight at all then? Might as well just give in to the jihadists if you're prepared to join up with Nazis.

I hope that that Ted Ekeroth reads down this thread, and attempts to respond to some of the good, honest questions being put forth here.....that would be even nicer............dialogue! :)

It's fairly easy for an organization with an unsavory past (or present) to put lipstick on a pig. Any fairly competent PR person could spin things however you see fit. We see this in American politics every day - the way you can take a snippet here and there and turn someone into the second coming of Hitler, Stalin, or equate Bush with the aforementioned genocidal /demicidal leaders.

It wasn't all that long ago that members of the Democratic party were segregationists - Bob Byrd was a KKKer. And yet at some point they got rehabilitated.

These various documents do give a snapshot of what the Sweden Democrats claim to be now, but it is their earlier history, and some ongoing concerns (like timeline issues in Killgore's excerpt above) and that they haven't fully broken away from that earlier history that worry me.

re: #20 m

I found a work-around.

The problem's probably how my Male arranged the system; he's a Unix administrator, and he occasionally does things in ways I don't understand.

I'm reading.

The translators weren't really bilingual, were they?

Read the docs. They basically say they support Israel, want to keep Sweden Sweden, oppose Socialism, etc.

Obviously the documents are literature they handed out to try to dispel any misgivings about them. However, Charles presented multiple examples in his first post that showed quite a different picture than their literature states.

My opinion's not really been changed.

Personally, I think their stance is a littel self serving. I was able to extract the following from the first document, as it had the redlines and edit changes discoverable:

. . . and so, in the interests of getting laid, the leadership of the Sweden Democrats today resolves that we will disavow Nazism and have rotating visits to Kibbutz Ramat Nooki, where the weather is warm, and the babes are warmer.'

re: #32 ointmentfly

re: #5 Killgore Trout

Maybe we ought to adopt the old arab adage - the enemy of my enemy is my friend - with regard to the possible skinhead wing of the party. What are the chances they would have time to mobilize against the Jews when they will obviously have their hands full with the tidal wave of your muslims....?

Fascists ALWAYS have time to persecute Jews. During the Holocaust, German generals couldn't get rolling stock for troops and tanks because it was being used to haul Jews to the death camps.
To a Nordic racist, Jews and Muslims are variations on the same theme: the other, the semite, the dark stranger from outside.

Ron Paul.

I think Sweden Democrats have learned a few tricks from CAIR. The words don't pass the, uh, smell test.

Actions always speak louder than words.

re: #29 Dave the.....

Sweden's gift to the world is Ikea.

/and ABBA

I don't know about this Swede movement, but I have certainly met some Europeans who support Israel only because they hate Arabs even more than Jews. This is not a good reason.

re: #41 lawhawk

It's the same people. They've simply realized they'll never make any progress if they go swanning about in lederhosen and epaulets, clicking their boot heels.

They are FAR less dangerous when they're all dressed up in their Nazi costumes. Once they start going "mainstream" is when the danger starts. Just like the hard Left in America.

Charles,
After reading these links I don't think it's reasonable to present this propaganda without commentary or balance.
Controversies

During the Swedish general election in 1998 it was discovered that two of the party's candidates for municipal election in Malmö had previously been members of two outspoken Nazi organisations; one was a member of the Nysvenska rörelsen and the other was a member of the National Socialist Front. Also, one of the party leaders in Helsingborg played in a white power band that had performed at the August 1998 National Socialist Front rally.[13]
....
A Sweden Democrat holding a seat in Kristinehamn left the party in 2003 after writing several anti-Semitic and Holocaust-denying letters to various authorities.[36]
....
On 22 March 2003, the SD candidate in Helsingborg was arrested by the police when he, together with several known Nazis (including the local leader of Nationalsocialistisk Front) attacked an anti-racist demonstration.[38]
...
For the 2004 election to the European Parliament, the party received 200,000 SEK from the Belgian anti-Semite Bernard Mengal.

These people are scum not worthy of consideration.

As if the issue isn't muddled enough, now we have these documents to sift through.

I don't know what to think anymore. I think I'm just going to wait and watch before I finalize an opinion about them....

~ENT

re: #26 Killgore Trout

This is all bullshit. why would a Nazi organization have so much English literature about how they're not really Nazis on hand?
These guys are worse than Vlaams.

Well, this hullaballoo has been going on for several days.

This Belch and Swedish situation is kind of like Israeli politics, I have a surface knowledge, but don't know enough details to really make a conclusive decision.

I would think Bat Ye'or and Robert Spencer would be aware of the company they keep. On the other hand, I doubt they vetted every participant.

Of course, if Ms. Geller had stated her disagreement with the LGF position on the political parties in question without basically accusing LGF of writing CAIR talking points, more light than heat could have been shed on the subject at hand.

BTW, the fact that this leader of the Swedish party would write to defend his group would suggest he does care what people think. It isn't like Storm Front e-mails Charles trying to convince him that they are all on the same side.

re: #32 ointmentfly

Many people are willing to make that compromise. Not me, never.

re: #46 Omega

Ron Paul.

Now, if we can prove that he took money from the stormfront nazi's AND the Sweden democrats, you may have something there......

re: #49 Killian Bundy

And Saab. And Volvo. And numerous others.

Actually for the size of the country they are remarkably productive. What has Saudi Arabia produced with their petro-trillions?

re: #29 Dave the.....

When I need a sauna, I'll call Sweden..... who cares if they elect their own asswarts?

That's Finland. Sweden's gift to the world is Ikea.

I thought it was Abba and Ace of Bass.

re: #39 Pro-Bush Canuck

'Join up' is a little harsh. Directing their hatred at our problem at hand is more like it.....

re: #31 Milk Toast Intolerant

Do they only want us to read articles that put them in a positive light only? You know how they say talk is cheap.

To be absolutely fair, they are responding to Charles' and our concerns by addressing them. I don't know that I believe them, but at least they're responding with translations of press releases with a history, and they're answering the questions.

What I'd like to see is a good history article by someone who knows Swedish politics, written before this contretemps.

re: #26 Killgore Trout

This is all bullshit. why would a Nazi organization have so much English literature about how they're not really Nazis on hand?
These guys are worse than Vlaams.

I'm thinking they recently translated it from Swedish. The English is poorly constructed.

I don't know what to say other than the documents are poorly translated, rushed, Microsoft Word, un-official, no way of knowing what the heck about them documents.

The gentleman may as well have given us a Scanned Image of a Napkin with these words on em.

re: #53 EtNorskTroll

You could take off your clothes and run around the room naked again....OOOOPS!

re: #54 Ed mahmoud abu al Kahoul

BTW, the fact that this leader of the Swedish party would write to defend his group would suggest he does care what people think.

That's the spooky thing. They have support here in America and want to keep it. I say "Fuck 'em."

re: #53 EtNorskTroll

As if the issue isn't muddled enough, now we have these documents to sift through.

I don't know what to think anymore. I think I'm just going to wait and watch before I finalize an opinion about them....

~ENT

I think that's a mistake, honestly.

I spelled out my view a little more thoroughly in Post 38, but it comes down to this: We do not need to fall in with people who have a "muddled" background, when it comes to Nazism.

Never.

re: #59 ointmentfly

Sorry but I just cannot function in that mode. If it comes down to it I'll take up arms against BOTH the jihadists AND the Nazis. I'll die before fighting alongside either.

I say we need Swedish lesbians, ham lovers, winos, gays and socialists on our side. Not ex-Nazis.

Especially Swedish lesbians.

re: #57 Pro-Bush Canuck

re: #49 Killian Bundy

And Saab. And Volvo. And numerous others.

Actually for the size of the country they are remarkably productive. What has Saudi Arabia produced with their petro-trillions?

Misery and death.

They read a lot like a CAIR press release.

re: #46 Omega

Ron Paul.

Exactly. You can tell whether a candidate/party is rotten or not by who their supporters are.

re: #53 EtNorskTroll

As if the issue isn't muddled enough, now we have these documents to sift through.

Gee, except for the seven pager(six without the picture), they're all less than a page.

/don't wear yourself out

re: #66 Pro-Bush Canuck

Remember that two entities fighting a third entity are not necessary fighting "side-by-side".

Actions speak louder than words, but I believe this party is interested primarily in maintaining Swedish sovereignty and ethnicity. It is unfortunate that their cause was co-opted by radicals for a time and is now being ambushed by multiculturalist - politically correct idiots. I'd fight with them against the Islamists any time. Do not equate fascism with a people's desire to preserve their nationality against outside forces.

re: #55 Killgore Trout

I can't disagree with that, but when I see the enormity of the Jihadis sweeping Europe with their own vile hatred of western values, I wonder what besides an equivilent evil can beat it back?

re: #39 Pro-Bush Canuck

If we didn't ally ourselves with the Soviets in WWII there was a chance that the Nazis would of won. #32 may have a point.

Good heavens, people.

The enemy of our enemy? What kind of trash is that?

I'll bail out of this joint in a hurry, if we start to think of Nazis -- or even the Nazi-ish -- as our friends.

Bill Clinton Rips into Moon Bats

re: #72 Malatrope

My point is that I would attack both of them equally. They are equally evil.

re: #52 Killgore Trout

Do you think that can be added to the list of things to read? I'm just finishing up the document dump right now, and I haven't had a chance to search for countervailing examples. We know my google-fu isn't as good as all that, too.

re: #75 Randman

1. We didn't know how evil the Soviet Union was.

2. We (you, the US) have OVERWHELMING force on our side. We don't need to compromise.

This whole conversation is making me feel slightly sick to my stomach. I'm dropping it.

Jeez, living under Nazi overlords vs Muslim overlords. Tough call.

I think I would prefer the muslim overlords. More generally incompetent.

re: #80 Pro-Bush Canuck

Seconded.

I hope someone with a background in Swedish politics could weigh in on this further and give more insight than a couple of self-selected pressers. What are these guys really up to?

re: #77 Jewels (AKA Julian)

Bill Clinton Rips into Moon Bats

[Link: www.liveleak.com...]

I must admit, I love it when he Sister Souljah's someone.

from : [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Basic political ideas

The pillar of Sweden Democrats’ ideological message is manifest from the party's statement of principles, which it published in 2003:

"The critical ingredient of a safe, harmonic, solid and supportive society is the common identity, which in turn requires a high degree of ethnic and cultural uniformity amongst the people. From this, it follows that the nationalist principle, the principle of one state, one nation, is absolutely fundamental to the Sweden Democrats’ political values. The nationalist principle is based on the concept of the nation state, that the territorial boundaries of the state shall coincide with its demographic boundaries. In its ideal form, such a society is therefore ethnically homogenous. Cultural diversity is as necessary to mankind as biological diversity is to nature. The different cultures are mankind’s common heritage and they should be acknowledged and kept apart for the benefit of us all... Countries containing a multiple of relatively strong cultures have tended to develop in such a way that they end up diluting the different ethnicities and totally eradicating their original identities. We the Sweden Democrats believe that the safest way to protect the diversity of cultures, taking into consideration respect for human rights, is to do so as much as possible in the paradigm of the nation state." (Sverigedemokraterna 2003)

I couldn't open the last pdf file but I read the others. My take is that, if these papers are to be believed they might not be Israel/Jew-haters, but as the quote from the official policy declaration above shows they are nevertheless racists; like the BNP and some other European Nationalist far right parties these days they couch it in terms of preserving the purity of each race, rather than the superiority of their race. It's presented as a kind of 'equal opportunity racism' that is as much concerned with the future ability of Kenyans to run long distances as it is about the blue eyes and blond hair of Swedes. They equate nationality with race, and desire homogeneity and view mixed race as inferior. Whether the party publicly desires it or not, given their official statements on race and nationalism, it is perfectly understandable that they attract Nazis. These people stink and we don't need their stink on us.

re: #78 Pro-Bush Canuck

Well, let's fight them in the order in which they are attacking us. There are significantly fewer European neo-nazis than global muslim jihadis.

If two rivers are putting out a great big fire, and one of them is smelly and nasty and comes from a swamp, drain the swamp after the fire is out, that's all I'm trying to say.

Any policy statements in those docs about making the trains run on time?

This from the last document:

However, we will not hide the fact that we have made serious mistakes in our past that have made it a lot easier for our opponents to put these labels on us.

Most of these mistakes were made between the years of 1991 and 1994. During these years the party was temporarily radicalised due to bad leadership and the fact that the anti-immigration,
populist party “Ny Demokrati” (New Democracy), was formed, reached the national parliament and drained our party on most of its more established members.

The worst of these mistakes was that the party didn’t distance itself from radical youths with sub cultural looks and that these were allowed to participate in some of the party demonstrations.

I think it was a bit more serious than that. My neck hairs are still standing up.

re: #83 lawhawk

I hope someone with a background in Swedish politics could weigh in on this further and give more insight than a couple of self-selected pressers. What are these guys really up to?

I think Fjordman has weighed in on this, no? On the side of the Swedish Democrats I believe. I could be wrong - don't hold me to this.

re: #67 Maine's Michael

Especially Swedish lesbians.

I know I'm going to regret asking this, but, why?

Charles,

I applaud your willingness to examine both sides on an issue. I really do. But lifting this particular carpet has exposed what appears to be a nasty aspect, at least within the comments section here.

I'm curious -- pointedly curious -- to hear your thoughts.

I dunno. It is striking that they have contacted Charles in a civil manner, offered information in whatever manner, and not ranted and raved like lunatics usually do.

It is likely that for some, even if they have anti-semitic inclination, the threat of the Jew has long since faded into irrelevance as Jews disappear from Europe, while the Muslim hordes continue to pour in.

I am keeping an open mind. I am a member at Brussels Journal too, and there is a mix there of really fine people, obvious racists and anti-semites, and white-supremacists.

The same is true of many right wing blogs. Small Dead Animals in Canada, and frankly, LGF (sorry, 'tis true).

Somehow we have to support the good, weed out the bad, and not toss them all in the same junk heap.

Tough to do, but necessary.

Bill Clinton Rips into Moon Bats

[Link: [Link: www.liveleak.com...]...]

Yeah, I was watching that channel and they did the tease to the story...then my phone rang and I missed it. Yes, even the Clintons are being stalked by the truthers.

re: #80 Pro-Bush Canuck

1.Our government sure as heck knew about the millions starved to death in the Ukraine.

2.How will overwhelming conventional force matter if 51% of Europe is radical Muslims?

Anyways, the final litmus test for me is how a group treats Jews.

That usually break any tie in my book.

~Norsk Troll

The only knowledge I have is from second cousins, via poor translations. I think there IS not viable conservative movement in Sweden, It is Left, More Left, and Incompetent.

This may be what passes for conservative. God help us all.

re: #63 Malatrope

re: #53 EtNorskTroll

You could take off your clothes and run around the room naked again....OOOOPS!

*looks around*

"Ya think?"

Heh...

~ENT

re: #90 Dianna

Why not?

re: #80 Pro-Bush Canuck

I have to disagree that we have 'overwhelming' power against a creeping disease taking over Europe especially given our liberal side willing to turn the other cheek to jihadis if it is a stick in the eye to the right in this country.

#92 june_july

According to Charles, Ekeroth was a rarity in his civil email. The others weren't.

re: #96 mama winger

I think that is basically the story for most of Europe.

re: #92 june_july

Somehow we have to support the good, weed out the bad, and not toss them all in the same junk heap.

Tough to do, but necessary.

Yup.

Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas.

re: #74 ointmentfly

Evil fighting evil...it happens, but the outcome is usually worse for the innocent.

I think of the story from the Gulag, when the young jewish woman showed her broken, badly healed hands, and said, "These were from the Nazis," then turned, lifted her shirt, and displayed the scars and lumps and damage on her back, and said, "These were from the GRU."

re: #97 EtNorskTroll

...well, Charles appears to be busy analyzing documents, 'n stuff at the moment. Carpe Diem, bro.

re: #76 Cognito

Good heavens, people.

The enemy of our enemy? What kind of trash is that?

I'll bail out of this joint in a hurry, if we start to think of Nazis -- or even the Nazi-ish -- as our friends.

I never thought I would be saying these words, but Cognito. I agree with you.

Tropical Disturbance #90L bringing heavy squalls to Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands and Sant Maarten.

re: #76 Cognito

You, me, and Charles, I think.

re: #81 Maine's Michael

Jeez, living under Nazi overlords vs Muslim overlords. Tough call.

I think I would prefer the muslim overlords. More generally incompetent.

*Norsk Troll puts a loaded gun in his mouth, cocks the hammer back*

"Whah waf tha queftioon again, Michael?"

~ENT

re: #107 3 wood

NOT friends. Dirty swamp water, no?

re: #96 mama winger

Precisely. There is no other european response possible. Euopean society is like a rubber band. At this point, its pulled so far to the left that it can only snap back, overshooting on the right.

re: #87 Maine's Michael

Any policy statements in those docs about making the trains run on time?

I thought that Mussolini and the Fascisti.

re: #92 june_july

All the easier to sway with honey than vinegar.

re: #77 Jewels (AKA Julian)

Bill Clinton Rips into Moon Bats

[Link: www.liveleak.com...]

Thats like getting yelled at by God to a lefty

From one of the word documents, the Sweden Democrats point out that other political parties in Sweden also have their nazis. I think to really understand what's going on -- it would take many, many hours (weeks, months) of dedicated research and examination...and not just looking at the one party, the Sweden Democrat Party, but all the political parties. Get a sense of the whole political nexus. (Another problem is that this is a different culture. I've read and heard about some things which are -- hmmm, what's the word to describe it -- alien?) (I think some other poster here already mentioned this -- it's almost endemic, a kind of racialization (?) of their society...which is bound to be rather "off-putting" for North Americans...) Anyway, the nazi business i find very, very troubling...

OT, way OT. But I have to share. Billy finally says something I can just agree with.

Why can't more of our leaders just do this.

re: #115 pegcity

re: #77 Jewels (AKA Julian)

Bill Clinton Rips into Moon Bats

[Link: www.liveleak.com...]

Thats like getting yelled at by God to a lefty

No..Clinton is only a Saint as Vladimir Lenin is the moon bat god.

That cuts it.

"sub-cultural looks" = fucking SS uniform

I can't believe we are having this discussion. Joining up with nazis, even tame-looking stealth nazis? What the fuck? That is what comes from reckless talk about nuking Mecca and interning American Muslims.

There are millions of Muslims in Iraq who have joined up with US. I'll take them over these creeps any day.

euroland is closer to having to fight the islmo fascists on there home turf. when the shit hits the fan you might not have the luxury to choose who stands beside you on the barricades.

During ww2 we ended up making common cause with Joe Stalin a man with the blood of millions on his hands.. we ended up on the same side with the devil because the monster snickelgrubber was much worse esp. in the short term.

You join a political party because you agree with it, you can join in a common front against common enemies with out agreeing to the ideas of everyone in that front. the capitalist west did not agree with Joe Stalin, Churchill esp understood we would be in a vast struggle with Stalin after the war, FDR was somewhat confused on that.

Remember just because someone is called fascist or Nazi does not mean they are, just look 4 different American presidents were called fascist, or Nazi by the moonbat left.

re: #52 Killgore Trout

For the 2004 election to the European Parliament, the party received 200,000 SEK from the Belgian anti-Semite Bernard Mengal.

Surfing around I found this interesting page.

Bernard Mengal

re: #85 Jimmah

Published in 2003?

I can read code-words better than most, and my scalp is crawling, and my hair is literally trying to stand on end. Which, given my hair, is quite a sight.

Thanks, Jimmah.

That's it. They're classic mystic nationalists, which morphs, on three rousing speeches, into pogroms.

re: #80 Pro-Bush Canuck

re: #75 Randman

1. We didn't know how evil the Soviet Union was.

Yes we did.
They had just recently had been Nazi allies.

What I DO know is that Sweden is losing itself in a sea of bad decisions, stretching over decades. Come-and-get-it welfare, open immigration, low birth rates among its citizens, high birth rates among its muslim population, and the radical decline of towns such as Malmo. Places that even the police will not go.

In Sweden, the schools teach the children that being Swedish is bad. Being a world citizen is good. The people are having a reaction to the loss of their culture and their heritage. What does it mean to be Swedish? Is there a community? Or are there merely taxpayers and leaches?

Swedes are waking up and deciding that it may be a good thing to be Western, to be Swedish, to be European. They do not wish to be over run with lowlifes rioting and demanding Sharia.

Can you blame them?

The question is - is there something salvageable here? And who will save it?

Ed of many babies

I would think Bat Ye'or and Robert Spencer would be aware of the company they keep. On the other hand, I doubt they vetted every participant.

Robert Spencer said he did not vet everyone that would be there, and was meeting most for the first time.

#92 june_july

The same is true of many right wing blogs. Small Dead Animals in Canada, and frankly, LGF (sorry, 'tis true).

Uhm- Islam isn't a race. (sorry, but it's true).

re: #32 ointmentfly

Maybe we ought to adopt the old arab adage - the enemy of my enemy is my friend - with regard to the possible skinhead wing of the party. What are the chances they would have time to mobilize against the Jews when they will obviously have their hands full with the tidal wave of your muslims....?

No how.

No way.

Warning off topic rant:

Whoooppppeeee.....They have just lifted the mandatory evacuation notice here in Ramona.

re: #123 Texas Joel

Sorry. As I said above, not responding any more on this topic. Makes me ill.

re: #92 june_july

"It is likely that for some, even if they have anti-semitic inclination, the threat of the Jew has long since faded into irrelevance as Jews disappear from Europe, while the Muslim hordes continue to pour in."

I think it this is a a grave mistake in rationalization. Jewish threat isn't measured by their numbers, but instead by their mere existence.

re: #98 Maine's Michael

Beer, a diet heavy on carbs, and age?

re: #119 Shiplord Kirel

Excellent point.

To be sure, there are plenty of Muslims who are joining up with us because they've got their own scores to settle with others (tribes, nations, ethnic groups, etc.) but there is no reason that we should need or choose to associate with folks who haven't truly distanced themselves from the neo-nazi fascist policies.

This really isn't passing the smell test.

re: #86 Malatrope

No. No arguments to expediency are acceptable. When we make compromises with haters we get their stink on us.

re: #127 doriangrey

Good to hear there is progress.....I heard on the radio today, 14,000 homes gone, and 8 dead with more expected to be found so.....

#131 lawhawk

Agreed.

This whole white supremacy thing - it worries me that Europe may accept such nonsense. I just don't see how it can fly in the USA, except in the lunatic fringe. Virtually everyplace I go is multi-racial.

Don't Europeans mix? Americans - at least where I live - mix. Heck, my family's mixed. If not a melting pot, we're certainly a stew. You can't unmake a stew.

re: #124 mama winger

What I DO know is that Sweden is losing itself in a sea of bad decisions, stretching over decades. Come-and-get-it welfare, open immigration, low birth rates among its citizens, high birth rates among its muslim population, and the radical decline of towns such as Malmo. Places that even the police will not go.

In Sweden, the schools teach the children that being Swedish is bad. Being a world citizen is good. The people are having a reaction to the loss of their culture and their heritage. What does it mean to be Swedish? Is there a community? Or are there merely taxpayers and leaches?

Swedes are waking up and deciding that it may be a good thing to be Western, to be Swedish, to be European. They do not wish to be over run with lowlifes rioting and demanding Sharia.

Can you blame them?

The question is - is there something salvageable here? And who will save it?

Great synopsis mw, with an even better question poised.

The Stalin analogy doesn't apply in this situation. This is activism, not war, at least for now. If it comes to these weird ex-but-not-really-Nazis fighting AQ in the streets, then we can make an alliance of necessity, not before.

re: #135 Catttt

Swedes marry Swedes. That's my experience. Once in a while, maybe a Norwegian gets thrown into the mix. Not too often.

My opinion so far: the hackles are still raised. Maybe even more.

re: #92 june_july

Can you point me to a white supremicist on LGF? I know of no such lizardoid.

re: #120 yochanan

That was a deal with the devil that I don't think many would choose to make again. Sometimes recognizing evil and lesser evils means not doing business with either.

I'm missing posts 61 through 108 on my screen for some weird reason, so I'm sorry if anybody said anything to me and I've not responded.

Hey Charles,

You got a link from Glenn on Instapundit...

Feeling an Instalanche yet?

re: #119 Shiplord Kirel

Charles is playing fair. They asked us to take a look. We have.

I just got a look at my reflection in one of my windows; you think it's only a metaphor, "hair raising", but it's not. Jimmah's link is just freaking revolting.

#139 Charles

Yeah, I'm just not believing their literature.

re: #133 Ma Sands

I heard on the radio today, 14,000 homes gone,

I believe its 1400...

Veterans Cemeteries ban flag folding ritual.

I smell the stink of the RoP on this...

(AP) RIVERSIDE Flag-folding recitations by Memorial Honor Detail volunteers are now banned at the nation's 125 veterans graveyards because of a complaint about the ceremony at Riverside National Cemetery.

During thousands of military burials, the volunteers have folded the American flag 13 times and recited the significance of every fold to survivors.

The first fold represents life, the second a belief in eternal life, and so on.

The complaint revolved around the narration in the 11th fold, which celebrates Jewish war veterans and "glorifies the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob."

The National Cemetery Administration then decided to ban the entire recital at all national cemeteries. Details of the complaint weren't disclosed.

re: #96 mama winger

Yep. My cousin married a Swedish woman and moved there about 15 years ago. According to his description of the place, Joe Liebermann would be considered a right winger! The level of p.c. is stifling, most people don't express their true feelings in public... and rarely in private too! Apparently they have a long history of obsessive conformity... a trait that has been exploited masterfully by the multi-culti left.

I dunno.

Read #1 and #6. So, ... is it necessary to make a judgement, take a position? They seem reasonable, ... mostly harmless.

re: #137 Shiplord Kirel

The Islamofascist have said in speeches over and over there will be no need to fight in the streets of Europe as the demographics and time will give them their victory.

re: #138 mama winger

re: #135 Catttt

Swedes marry Swedes. That's my experience. Once in a while, maybe a Norwegian gets thrown into the mix. Not too often.

I'm just so used to the descendants of tired, poor, huddled masses, breathing free. Remember that I am an American commercial after 9/11? Like that. I'm glad I'm American.

re: #124 mama winger

The question is - is there something salvageable here? And who will save it?

I have always thought that Europe is in a tough spot but could survive. However, their reversion to Nazism makes me think that maybe it's not worth saving afterall.

re: #124 mama winger

An excellent question. But I fear that it's always up to the people standing on the ground.

re: #146 doriangrey

Oh! I hope so!

re: #140 joncelli

I don't think there are any such people here either. I think there were a few posts that were perhaps ill-considered and not really thought through. Or perhaps just misunderstood.

The thing is most of us here have a lot of Jewish friends--many of us here ARE Jewish--and about the only thing in the world worse than a jihadist for us is a Nazi.

The Nazis killed more people in a few years than Arab Muslims have in a century or more.

re: #148 stevieray

Apparently they have a long history of obsessive conformity.

Yes - with a healthy dose of arrogance thrown in for good measure. I hate it when my Swedish relatives visit America. They are insufferably superior.

There are no "white supremacists" at LGF, and if I ever discover any, they'll be kicked out so fast their teeth will stay behind.

re: #125 m

Uhm- Islam isn't a race. (sorry, but it's 'tis true). ( fixed that for ya)

re: #132 joncelli

Speaking of expediency -- I was reading about the Conservative Party in the UK -- and it appears that the Conservative Party leader is taking a page out of the Liberal Handbook, and has newly "discovered" the "value" in cozying up to radical Imams...Apparently the "Conservatives" think that they can muster a few more votes by appealing to the "minority" immigrant communities in the UK. (I think this also drives people to those fringe parties.)

I have only read the first document, but, IMO if a group is anxious to disassociate itself from a checkered past, they actually do something really simple about it, like change their name.

When I see Nazi uniforms, sorry...no excuse. Period. End of sentence.

But I think I know what raises Charles' hackles, it seems a little *too* harmless, stuff like that won't really hold an organization together.

But maybe it isn't, y'know, this isn't that big an organization, and that's part of why it isn't that big an organization.

re: #135 Catttt

I just don't see how it can fly in the USA, except in the lunatic fringe.

Atlas is on board with them with no reservations, I see a few people here who aren't repulsed and there are probably a lot more supporters who are lurking and staying out of it. It can happen here. It might be happening here at this very moment.

Not conviinced, particularly in the face of what has already been presented here - and I've given these pieces more time, frankly.

Charles expressed some misgivings about the organization, and in rebuttal they point him (us) to stuff from their own blog to refute his concerns, which amount to

"Are not."

re: #120 yochanan

Good points.

re: #159 jeppo

Anyone who disagrees, please tell us exactly which Swedish political party anti-jihadists should support instead.

And there's the problem right there. No good alternatives.

re: #149 itellu3times

Go look at Jimmah's link.

It comes down to this: I don't hate all Muslims. I do hate all Nazis. Case closed.

Killgore,

Yes. Some of the comments on this thread have been revelatory.

re: #139 Charles

My opinion so far: the hackles are still raised. Maybe even more.

Nazi's aren't entirely useless, we can stick them on the 100 meter line at Pendelton.

re: #157 Charles

We could make a necklace.

re: #159 jeppo

If I had to choose between Sheehan and Kucinich, I'd stay home.

re: #151 Catttt

My family tends to marry anyone coming down the pike at the right time. It's rather disconcerting, when you start trying to research people only two or three generations back; they're not who you think.

re: #152 Killgore Trout

re: #124 mama winger

The question is - is there something salvageable here? And who will save it?

I have always thought that Europe is in a tough spot but could survive. However, their reversion to Nazism makes me think that maybe it's not worth saving afterall.

Genocide is in there blood, just look how they act during their precious soccer matches, like animals. That is the true Angry 2 millenia of Hatred Europe that exists below the surface of there multi culti bullshit facade.

re: #166 mama winger

If there are no good alternatives that STILL doesn't mean you vote for Nazis.

I'm having trouble believing I'm typing these posts on LGF...

I think I need a break.

The question for me is: Will the Europeans fight back? Have they become fatigued and morally decayed? For example, the same question could apply to Israel: Do they have the will to continue the fight?

France elected Sarkozy, which gave me a glimmer of hope, but now you have nationwide strikes because he wants them to work 30 minutes more a week and donate a couple of bucks a year to their pensions.

Are these the same people who are going to fight off their muslim masses?

re: #148 stevieray

...most people don't express their true feelings in public... and rarely in private...

:) .....I know a missionary couple to Sweden....they've told me of that, and that it is an utterly Swedish thing....... :) --helped me to come to terms with that in my elderly friend who passed away without me being able to realize I had broken through to her heart..... :) --I re-read all our e-mails after talking with the couple, and, oh, my! --it stands out, if you know what to look for! :)

Had to step away for a bit, and now I'm Hopelessly Behind in this thread. I want to be clear that I am in no way advocating "getting along with", "working with", "espousing", or otherwise helping out neo-nazis. The phrase "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is exceptionally misleading and simplistic. A better way to put it is that the enemy of my enemy can be a useful tool for a time. That is all I'm trying to say.

The Greeks stood on their principles, and were demolished. I'd hate to see us do the same.

In the context of this particular discussion, the original issue was letting these groups "help" with the conference. That was a mistake. But I believe it would be equally a mistake to tell them to stop being anti-Jihadist...

Just ignore the bastards. If they're a problem after we figure our way through this gawdawful Perverted Islam apocalypse, we can deal with them then. The mistake we made in WWII, after we made common-cause with the Soviets, was in not draining the swamp afterwards. Like Patton, I wouldn't have danced on the table with them in the bar, either.

I hope I'm not speaking out of turn when I say this. My memory of history is not excellent. If I am mistaken, please correct me.

This situation reminds me of the U.S. (and possibly other countries) making alliances with former Nazis at the end of the Second World War in order to fight Communism.

When I first heard this, I was horrified that many Nazis were allowed to flee Germany without prosecution. It was explained to me that the war had been won, the Nazis had been defeated and the war against Communism took precedence over punishing some former Nazis who might be useful.

Now it seems that some political groups with former and possibly current neo-Nazi connections are involved in the fight against Islamization. Some people are saying, "Look, it's in the past" or, "Hey, it's not that bad, you don't understand Europe" and ignoring or not acknowledging the unpleasant Nazi associations to focus on the fight against jihad. Others are saying, "Nazis are Nazis, and the balance of proof that these groups have changed is not significant enough for me to ignore this".

I'm in the latter group. It's one thing to say you've changed but, once trust is lost, it's hard to regain it. Finding out about neo-Nazi or skinhead origins in a group is enough to turn me off permanently because if I were running a group, those folks would be shown the door immediately and told to stay out in no uncertain terms. If I belonged to a group that knowingly permitted openly neo-Nazi or skinhead followers to join and participate, I would quit the group immediately.

We all draw the line somewhere.

re: #151 Catttt

I'm glad I'm American.

Me too. I thank God every day.

Let's see, you post criticism of a any politician and the politician responds.

/do you expect the politician to admit to or agree with the criticism?

re: #74 ointmentfly

re: #55 Killgore Trout

I can't disagree with that, but when I see the enormity of the Jihadis sweeping Europe with their own vile hatred of western values, I wonder what besides an equivilent evil can beat it back?

After this comment, you're not welcome at LGF. There may be another site where you can ally yourself with an "equivalent evil."

re: #140 joncelli

re: #92 june_july

Can you point me to a white supremicist on LGF? I know of no such lizardoid.

Maybe a few green supremist. ;)

re: #121 NJDhockeyfan

The inevitable conclusion being that the Sverigedemokraterna think it perfectly reasonable to take money from antisemites or extremists as long that they are not well known. Which, in the end, is what they did.

Heh.

The Sweden Democrats and Vlaams Belang are probably two of the most pro-Israel parties in Europe.

Certainly does Israel no favors.

Quite the contrary.

re: #175 Pro-Bush Canuck

If there are no good alternatives that STILL doesn't mean you vote for Nazis.

Of course not. You develop other alternatives.

I am not sure if the Swedes, or greater Europe for that matter, can do this fast enough to make a difference. In fact, I am almost positive that they cannot.

re: #157 Charles

kicked out so fast their teeth will stay behind.

/I've seen that happen in cartoons before

re: #159 jeppo

How would we know? We're Americans, and we don't really know much about Swedish politics. We're reading documents, and they make us uncomfortable.

It's up to the Swedes to figure this conundrum. We can't. All we can do is decide if we're really willing to swallow what we're reading right this instant.

As for me, the answer is, No.

re: #160 J.S.

Alas, the Tories are lost. They haven't been a real conservative party since John Major replaced Thatcher.

I like the fact that Charles has given these people a say...and I like the fact that they would take the tme and effort to speak in their own defense.

re: #92 june_july

I dunno. It is striking that they have contacted Charles in a civil manner, offered information in whatever manner, and not ranted and raved like lunatics usually do.

It is likely that for some, even if they have anti-semitic inclination, the threat of the Jew has long since faded into irrelevance as Jews disappear from Europe, while the Muslim hordes continue to pour in.

I am keeping an open mind. I am a member at Brussels Journal too, and there is a mix there of really fine people, obvious racists and anti-semites, and white-supremacists.

The same is true of many right wing blogs. Small Dead Animals in Canada, and frankly, LGF (sorry, 'tis true).

Somehow we have to support the good, weed out the bad, and not toss them all in the same junk heap.

Tough to do, but necessary.

I don't mean to take this on a small tangent, but if you are implying there are racists, anti-semites, and white-supremacists at LGF, I would be interested to know who they are. I have been reading this blog for about three years now and have yet to encounter those types of people. Charles does a very good job of banning those types, so if they were once here, they aren't anymore.

re: #174 pegcity

re: #152 Killgore Trout

re: #124 mama winger

The question is - is there something salvageable here? And who will save it?

I have always thought that Europe is in a tough spot but could survive. However, their reversion to Nazism makes me think that maybe it's not worth saving afterall.

Genocide is in there blood, just look how they act during their precious soccer matches, like animals. That is the true Angry 2 millenia of Hatred Europe that exists below the surface of there multi culti bullshit facade.

equating your average football fan in Europe to a few hooligans is using a pretty broad brush

re: #163 Killgore Trout

re: #135 Catttt

I just don't see how it can fly in the USA, except in the lunatic fringe.

Atlas is on board with them with no reservations, I see a few people here who aren't repulsed and there are probably a lot more supporters who are lurking and staying out of it. It can happen here. It might be happening here at this very moment.

Some, yeah. However, I think they trip on over to the looney fringe if they know and accept it anyway. I just don't think it will fly. I hope I'm right.

re: #178 Malatrope

The Greeks stood on their principles, and were demolished. I'd hate to see us do the same.

Wow.

re: #121 NJDhockeyfan

The inevitable conclusion being that the Sverigedemokraterna think it perfectly reasonable to take money from antisemites or extremists as long that they are not well known. Which, in the end, is what they did.

/money quote

re: #156 mama winger

re: #148 stevieray

Apparently they have a long history of obsessive conformity.

Yes - with a healthy dose of arrogance thrown in for good measure. I hate it when my Swedish relatives visit America. They are insufferably superior.

Really? When I was young, my cousins and I shared a house, and he visited Sweden a few times. He must have invited the entire country to come visit him (and consequently me too), and many took him up on it. For the two years we shared the house, we must have had 20 different Swedes stay with us... usually for a month of more!

They all seemed friendly, and we always had a good time. Of course, half of them were 20 year old Swedish women... that may have clouded my judgement. :D

re: #163 Killgore Trout

re: #135 Catttt

I just don't see how it can fly in the USA, except in the lunatic fringe.

Atlas is on board with them with no reservations, I see a few people here who aren't repulsed and there are probably a lot more supporters who are lurking and staying out of it. It can happen here. It might be happening here at this very moment.

I had been lurking and staying out of it, 'cause I don't know the start of this discussion, I am assuming someone rubbed elbows with these groups, then I remember a thread attempting to distance LGF from the groups, then flames...
Anyway, I do not live in Sweden, therefore I can not pass judgment on a Swedish Political Party. I can't join it, I can't support it, and I sure as heck can't stop anyone else from being a part of it.
/back to lurking

re: #195 Killgore Trout

re: #178 Malatrope

The Greeks stood on their principles, and were demolished. I'd hate to see us do the same.

Wow.

Not even worth the effort.

>>They are insufferably superior.

I only recently read any Swedish history, and indeed the Swedes were The Germans before the Germans were The Germans. If you get my drift.

But they make a mean elk steak.

In the prior thread, we were busy going on after Ron Paul for his connections to neo-Nazi/white supremacists/conspiracy loons, and here we're supposed to ignore those kinds of connections because there is something of a common cause against the Islamists?

Sorry, but I don't see how you can do that.

re: #194 Catttt

re: #163 Killgore Trout

re: #135 Catttt

I just don't see how it can fly in the USA, except in the lunatic fringe.

Atlas is on board with them with no reservations, I see a few people here who aren't repulsed and there are probably a lot more supporters who are lurking and staying out of it. It can happen here. It might be happening here at this very moment.

Some, yeah. However, I think they trip on over to the looney fringe if they know and accept it anyway. I just don't think it will fly. I hope I'm right.

Ahem. When I said "some, yeah" I meant in the USA - NOT here at LGF.

Thanks, Dianna, for pointing me back to Jimmah's link.
Please people, if you scrolled past this, go back and read it. If you know anything about the roots of Nazism, it will make your skin crawl.

re: #157 Charles

There are no "white supremacists" at LGF, and if I ever discover any, they'll be kicked out so fast their teeth will stay behind.

HAHA!

Funny...

~Norsk Troll

re: #155 Pro-Bush Canuck

The Nazis killed more people in a few years than Arab Muslims have in a century or more.

See post 81.

Why can't there be i dunno normal political parties in Europe, why do they have to be either socialists or Right wing nutcases.

re: #74 ointmentfly

re: #55 Killgore Trout

I can't disagree with that, but when I see the enormity of the Jihadis sweeping Europe with their own vile hatred of western values, I wonder what besides an equivilent evil can beat it back?

No way! Either we defeat the Islamic head choppers by the righteousness of our cause, or we will die trying, but we will not align ourselves with any "equivalent evil."

re: #178 Malatrope

You express you position well, but I must, respectfully, disagree.

re: #159 jeppo

And there's the problem. It's up to Swedes to take the responsibility to form parties that have no taint of racism and neo-naziism and yet still resist dhimmitude. It's a fine balance, but only Swedes of good intent can do it.

re: #92 june_july

I dunno. It is striking that they have contacted Charles in a civil manner, offered information in whatever manner, and not ranted and raved like lunatics usually do.

It is likely that for some, even if they have anti-semitic inclination, the threat of the Jew has long since faded into irrelevance as Jews disappear from Europe, while the Muslim hordes continue to pour in.

I am keeping an open mind. I am a member at Brussels Journal too, and there is a mix there of really fine people, obvious racists and anti-semites, and white-supremacists.

The same is true of many right wing blogs. Small Dead Animals in Canada, and frankly, LGF (sorry, 'tis true).

Somehow we have to support the good, weed out the bad, and not toss them all in the same junk heap.

Tough to do, but necessary.

This is an incredibly offensive post. Racists, antisemites, and white supremacists are NOT welcome at LGF, and if those are the kind of people you think you need to befriend, you're welcome to go elsewhere.

we are farther away from this problem in America.

there are parts of euroland that are no go areas NOW. and these are growing.

please be careful who you call nazi or fascist as our POTUS is offen called both of these things by the left and we all know he is neither. If muslims in america started creating jihadist no go areas our views might change in who we talked to. groups like these may have some rational people who we should talk to if only to get them to start org. we can agree with. In places like sweden if you are pro israel some will call you racist and a nazi even if you are in reality far from both. all i am saying we should be careful in this

re: #197 stevieray

Really?

On the other hand, my Swedish relatives might be big jerks just because they're, well, big jerks : )

In fact, I'm making that decision easy for "june_july" and blocking its account.

re: #201 lawhawk

In the prior thread, we were busy going on after Ron Paul for his connections to neo-Nazi/white supremacists/conspiracy loons, and here we're supposed to ignore those kinds of connections because there is something of a common cause against the Islamists?

Sorry, but I don't see how you can do that.

Therein lies the rub. You've nailed it.

re: #199 Cognito

That's a very important sentiment and it's how the Nazis took Europe the first time. I've seen more than a few people state that they can keep the Jinni in the bottle while using it's "evil powers".

re: #203 Shiplord Kirel

Thanks, Dianna, for pointing me back to Jimmah's link.
Please people, if you scrolled past this, go back and read it. If you know anything about the roots of Nazism, it will make your skin crawl.

Ah HAH. Thanks.

re: #191 Milk Toast Intolerant

"The same is true of many right wing blogs. Small Dead Animals in Canada, and frankly, LGF (sorry, 'tis true). "

I think your stereotyping, profiling and labeling of LGF is not only untrue, but offensive and petty.

In its ideal form, such a society is therefore ethnically homogenous.

Holy cr@p! I didn't really read Jimmah's link before...

Again, in my opinion, the resurgence of neo-Nazis, even in Europe, probably isn't too likely. But associating with neo-Nazis, even for a good cause, like defending Europe from Islamism, makes it far too easy for the Islamists and their fellow travellers to dismiss anything said because it comes from people/groups associated with neo-Nazis.

Even if the leaders of the Swedish party aren't white supremacists or Nazis themselves, if the party's origins are from that area, or they still have a substantial number of 'white power' types, they have a problem.

Is there an anti-Islamist party in Sweden that doesn't have a strong association or history of racism? If there isn't, than perhaps the more reasonable members of the Swden Democrats need to start a new party that polices itself and keeps out the loonies.

re: #215 Killgore Trout

re: #199 Cognito

That's a very important sentiment and it's how the Nazis took Europe the first time. I've seen more than a few people state that they can keep the Jinni in the bottle while using it's "evil powers".

I know. It's both morally and logically wrong.

I'm glad to see that Charles seems to have the situation well in hand, though.

re: #217 ted

Milk Toast Intolerant didn't say that.

re: #199 Cognito

Aside from urging Malatrope to read the histories? I see that I forgot to do that.

re: #202 Catttt

We're talking about the same thing. It can happen here in the US. Vlaams was here this spring drumming up support. Altas/Pamela is a real person here in America who supports them. The Knuckleheads at Stormfront are real Americans who support them. Robert Spencer has defended them. European fascists have real world support in America.

re: #2 MattMacD

"Tribal mentality"

I rarely post, but this phrase pushed one of my buttons. One of the things that I think is most wrong in the world today is what I'm calling 'tribalism'. Whether it's muslims vs. the kuffar, Sunni vs. Shia, or even democrats v. republicans, tribalism is all about the idea that "the worst of us is better than the best of you".

Original article

LGF post about the article

Hello. I don't have time to join in the discussion so much right now, but let me at least provide some background info. On the surface, Sweden is a peaceful democracy. In reality, it is a semi-totalitarian society. Opinion polls have revealed that two out of three Swedes doubt whether Islam can be combined with Swedish society. Yet not one party represented in parliament has been genuinely critical of the immigration policies.

According to Jonathan Friedman, an American Jew living in Sweden, “no debate about immigration policies is possible, the subject is simply avoided. Sweden has such a close connection between the various powerful groups, politicians, journalists, etc. The political class is closed, isolated.” The elites are worried to see their power slip away and therefore want to silence critics, for instance the Sweden Democrats, a small party opposed to immigration: “It is a completely legal party, they just aren’t allowed to speak. (...) In reality, the basis of democracy has been completely turned on its head. It is said: ‘Democracy is a certain way of thinking, a specific set of opinions, and if you do not share them, then you aren’t democratic, and then we condemn you and you ought to be eliminated. The People? That is not democratic. We the Elite, we are democracy.’ It is grotesque and it certainly has nothing to do with democracy, more like a kind of moral dictatorship.”

Before the elections in 2006, the established parties cooperated in boycotting the Sweden Democrats and other “xenophobic” parties. In one of numerous similar incidents, which extreme Leftists bragged about on the Internet, around 30 members of the SD were attacked during a peaceful, private party outside the town of Växjö. The brave “anti-Fascists” threw tear gas into the building, forcing people outside where they were beaten with iron bars and axes. Open, aggressive and sometimes violent harassment of critics of the country’s immigration policies has been going on for years, while the authorities have largely turned a blind eye to the problem.

Seemingly encouraged by the silence from the establishment to political violence, extreme Leftists have stepped up their attacks to include mainstream parties, such as the Centre Party’s offices in Stockholm. Newspaper Expressen warned against the “low-intensity terrorism,” but they were honest enough to admit that the extreme Leftists have tended to get away with their violence because it has been directed against the despised right-wingers. Political scientist Peter Esaiasson has done research into every election movement in Sweden since 1866. According to him, the organized attempts at disrupting meetings during the 2006 elections have no parallels in modern history.

[Link: www.brusselsjournal.com...]

The group Antifascistisk Action (AFA) openly brag about numerous attacks against persons who get their full name and address published on their website. According to them, this is done in order to fight against capitalist exploitation and for a global, classless society. Their logic goes something like this: If you protest against Muslim immigration, you suffer from Islamophobia, which is almost the same as xenophobia, which is almost the same as racism. And racists are almost Fascists and Nazis, as we all know, and they shouldn't be allowed to voice their opinions in public. Hence, if you protest against being assaulted or raped by Muslims, you are evil and need to be silenced. If a native Swede is really lucky, he or she will thus first get mugged or battered by Muslims, and then beaten up a second time by his own extreme Leftists for objecting to being beaten the first time. The state does next to nothing to prevent either, of course. Native Swedes who object to a mass immigration that will render them a minority in their own country within a couple of generations have already been classified as "racists," and racists are for all practical purposes outside of the protection of the law.

re: #198 Stonemason

oh, and my personal belief, feeling if you will, is that if the time came to accept this group here in America, I would fight it. We do not have to accept this group, so
/back to lurking again

re: #219 Ed mahmoud abu al Kahoul

So What you are saying Ed is "guilty by association"; excellent point.

re: #74 ointmentfly

re: #55 Killgore Trout

I can't disagree with that, but when I see the enormity of the Jihadis sweeping Europe with their own vile hatred of western values, I wonder what besides an equivilent evil can beat it back?

Mmmmmmmmm~!

What's that delicious smell?

Smells like it's time for BBQ'ed troll, again!

/Yep: Trolls are cannibals.

*Chomp, slurp*

*Buuuuurp*

~Norsk Troll

re: #206 pegcity

Because the middle was destroyed by being called fascist by the left, and communist by the right, to say nothing of persecuted as such by each extreme.

Which is why I'd like a little more moderate language all around.

That whole "you must become evil to fight evil" argument is specious bullshit rationalization.

We must never ally with racists and racism, that's pretty simple. Two reasons:

1. Our enemies will pick the worst amongst us to represent us to the world. We don't want to become what Hooper wants to make us out to be.
2. It's just plain wrong, we are better than that, stronger than that, and smarter than that.

re: #208 Dianna

Well, thanks for that, and I respect that you (and others) disagree. In my opinion, the subject and the challenge is extremely complex, both tactically and strategically, and many pieces will be moved all over the chessboard before anything resembling "bringing this medieval death cult into modernity" can occur.

Please, I am not advocating allying with, being friends with, justifying the philosophy of, or supporting Nazi a$$holes. I know how ugly that history is. As I said earlier, I'm on Charles', not Pamela's side here. However, like too many military commanders have had to do over the last few thousand years, I feel there will come a time when we have to try to steer the enemies into each other's teeth.

The Greeks failed because they allowed pure democracy (their principles) to completely gridlock their decision-making capability. We shouldn't do the same. I've tried hard to explain how I feel, and I guess I'll leave it at that.

re: #223 Killgore Trout

re: #202 Catttt

We're talking about the same thing. It can happen here in the US. Vlaams was here this spring drumming up support. Altas/Pamela is a real person here in America who supports them. The Knuckleheads at Stormfront are real Americans who support them. Robert Spencer has defended them. European fascists have real world support in America.

I disagree on Robert Spencer. He said unequivocally that he denounces neo-Nazis. If you have a link where he says something different, I'd like to see it; I've emailed him and we're on the same page with these groups as far as I know.

re: #223 Killgore Trout

re: #202 Catttt

We're talking about the same thing. It can happen here in the US. Vlaams was here this spring drumming up support. Altas/Pamela is a real person here in America who supports them. The Knuckleheads at Stormfront are real Americans who support them. Robert Spencer has defended them. European fascists have real world support in America.

Well, darn it, it's not going to happen in my family - we're not all white!

I feel like act one of Cabaret.

re: #216 Catttt

Sigh. It's so nice to know that I'm invisible.

re: #225 Fjordman

Cutting to the chase:

Native Swedes who object to a mass immigration that will render them a minority in their own country within a couple of generations have already been classified as "racists," and racists are for all practical purposes outside of the protection of the law.

Point well taken. But if you object to mass immigration and put on a Nazi uniform, well...

re: #225 Fjordman

Now I'm confused again.

re: #210 Charles

re: #92 june_july

I dunno. It is striking that they have contacted Charles in a civil manner, offered information in whatever manner, and not ranted and raved like lunatics usually do.

It is likely that for some, even if they have anti-semitic inclination, the threat of the Jew has long since faded into irrelevance as Jews disappear from Europe, while the Muslim hordes continue to pour in.

I am keeping an open mind. I am a member at Brussels Journal too, and there is a mix there of really fine people, obvious racists and anti-semites, and white-supremacists.

The same is true of many right wing blogs. Small Dead Animals in Canada, and frankly, LGF (sorry, 'tis true).

Somehow we have to support the good, weed out the bad, and not toss them all in the same junk heap.

Tough to do, but necessary.

This is an incredibly offensive post. Racists, antisemites, and white supremacists are NOT welcome at LGF, and if those are the kind of people you think you need to befriend, you're welcome to go elsewhere.

Charles: I beginning to think it is the night of the long knives--in reverse.

Smells like the Kos kiddies or LGF Watch (sic) has activated a bunch of their "sleeper cells" to try and discredit you and/or smear your name....

Heads up....

Sure looks suspicious to me.

~Norsk Troll

Fjordman's here.

Now I gotta think more.

re: #122 Dianna

... Thanks, Jimmah. That's it. They're classic mystic nationalists, which morphs, on three rousing speeches, into pogroms...

Exactly. I'm not sure how long any nationalist party can distance itself from extremism. In fact, the Swedish Democrats were formed in 1988 and by 1991, it had Nazi supporters. That isn't to say that there aren't good people who would like to express their... say patriotism/nationalism, but not at the expense of others. I would suggest they find another party to express it.

#225

What a sad sate of affairs in Sweeden. God help us all!

re: #236 Ed mahmoud abu al Kahoul

Although they do seem to have a history. The thread earlier with the White Power flag, was that the Belgian group or the Swedish group. And which group had the woman in a Nazi uniform? Because either one is pretty damning.

Even though Sweden may be considered by many to be a small country it should be viewed very carefully. Its served as as a petri dish for many ideas which IMHO may have been put in place with good intentions but ultimately will end in failure.

Killgore, I am lurking.

I quite frankly have only followed this topic on the edges, as I am still reading up on stuff regarding the thread about the MEK, a book about modern day slavery by Sean O'Callaghan, (referencing words I am not familiar with in the book) and other things particular to home.

I know absolute power corrupts.

As far as the depth of knowledge you seem to have, I'll sit back and read the comments and learn more.

Fjordman -

From your perspective over there - what percentage of Swedes might be considered what we would call 'conservative'? Not neo-nazi. But common sense conservative. Do you have any idea?

Can they form a viable conservative party?

re: #212 mama winger

re: #197 stevieray

Really?

On the other hand, my Swedish relatives might be big jerks just because they're, well, big jerks : )

Its probably an age related thing. They were young and on a big adventure... with no relatives around to report things back to Mom and Dad. Its pretty hard to be crabby when your twenty and "rich" Americans are buying you beer and taking you to clubs.

re: #225 Fjordman

Hence, if you protest against being assaulted or raped by Muslims, you are evil and need to be silenced.

That's not what we're talking about here. Just like not everyone who peaks out against radical Islam is a Nazi, not every one who's a called a Nazi is an innocent framed by socialists. The Sweden Democrats have a Nazi racist past that continues to this day. It still exists and is easily documented.

re: #225 Fjordman

Thank you for this post. It's very telling. The only anti-immigration party in Sweden has it's foundations built on nazism. That should tell you something.

re: #241 Ed mahmoud abu al Kahoul

re: #236 Ed mahmoud abu al Kahoul

Although they do seem to have a history. The thread earlier with the White Power flag, was that the Belgian group or the Swedish group. And which group had the woman in a Nazi uniform? Because either one is pretty damning.

The white power flag was the Belgian group, and a fairly recent image iirc. The Nazi she-wolf was from the Swedish group and that one is fairly old, from the early 90s or so.

re: #225 Fjordman

Holy crap Fjordman, what's happening in Sweden is a microcosm of what's happening here.
The Fascist Leftists are silencing the free speech of anyone who dissents from their world view, especially Conservatives.

The violence that you described an the hands of the Fascists Leftists in Sweden is just starting to happen here.

re: #225 Fjordman

So, essentially, the middle has been destroyed? Or at least silenced?

Just peachy. This is what happens when you insist that labels are more important than individuals.

re: #244 mama winger

Now that is the right way to go about changing Europe. Don't try to change existing groups, but encourage the formation of new ones.

Re: the Neo-Nazi's & Socialist Fascists

"The Enemy of My Enemy...Is Still My Enemy". Sorry, no alliance with Fascists, thank you. I got my family out of Europe several years ago because we saw what was coming now. Never Again.

OT-

I went to attend the Michael Medved event at the University of Washington tonight, but I was too late to get in the lecture hall. Last time Medved was on campus, there were less than 300 or so people there. This time, there must have been well over 1,000. It didn't occur to me that it might be that crowded. Nothing too exciting to report other than the "Stop Bombing Muslim Women" signs and about 25% of the crowd waiting outside the hall were Muslim. Seemed peaceful for the most part. I left after about 15 minutes waiting outside the hall. I wanted to be like Zombie, and get a good report and pics : ) *Sigh* maybe next time.

re: #232 Charles

I was referring to the same article, although he did disassociate himself from them and their views I do recall him saying they've cleaned up their act. I'll check the article again.......

re: #225 Fjordman

Hmm. Never really thought of Sweden like that...

re: #218 americanpundit

In its ideal form, such a society is therefore ethnically homogenous.

Holy cr@p! I didn't really read Jimmah's link before...

Well but it is Wikipedia, and isn't this what Charles has been referencing for two days now?

There's like no connection between these innocent docs and some of their past unsavory links and maybe some of their current doctrine. I don't know that ethnic homogeneity is harmful, tho I think the lesson from biology is that diversity is a very strong force, without being all politically correct about it.

So I'm not ready to register as a Swedish Democrat, but I'm willing to keep an eye on them, and if they can keep some bikini blondes out of burkas I'll count that as some kind of success.

I will never ally myself with fascists or neo-Nazis. Not now, and not ever. If we convince ourselves that this devil's bargain is the only way to win, we will have already lost.

[Link: conswede.blogspot.com...]

And should we encounter one of those less-than-ideal among our ranks, the right approach is to have a dialog with them, We are the many, and they are the few, so there's nothing to fear from such a dialog. And the really bad eggs won't show up at all. The bad eggs do not want to come to such an explicitly philo-Semitic conference as the Counterjihad summit we had in Brussels. They don't want to come to the conference featuring the strongly Zionist Aryeh Eldad, they want to go to Ahmadinejad's Holocaust Denial conference. These two groups are mutually exclusive. The magnetic metal is aligning itself. The neo-Nazis do not want to touch us with a ten-foot pole. So this is completely a non-issue. Our very positions protect us from their presence. But surely there will be less-than-ideal people to be found while the movement is growing. Most people still only have an intuitive idea of that something is wrong, and carry many confused concepts within (due to the smokes and mirrors of the political theater). They will need to be educated. Dialog is a good idea, ostracism a bad one.

(*) Update: Maybe I'm unfair to Jörg Haider comparing him to David Duke above. I could just as well have compared him to Nancy Pelosi, visiting Syria in support of the same dictatorial thug, Bashar al-Assad, as David Duke. Where Nancy Pelosi caused much more damage with her visit than David Duke did. And unlike Duke she actually met with Bashar al-Assad. Yes, Nancy Pelosi would perhaps have been a better comparison. Nevertheless, they are all equally useless in opposing the threat from Islam: Jörg Haider, David Duke and Nancy Pelosi.

Where's Truumax the Swede?

Probably sleeping - time difference. He might be able to give us some more info.

re: #234 Dianna

re: #216 Catttt

Sigh. It's so nice to know that I'm invisible.

It's not that! I do read your posts. OK - now I have to admit - I was reading from the bottom of the thread.

I recall (some years ago) a big ruckus caused in (was it the Netherlands?) and it was about children who had been born during WWII -- but they had been the product of "breeding" (by the SS). Now, I would have thought, well these poor, unfortunate children -- they were orphans -- and I thought these "civilized" people in the Netherlands (after being liberated, etc.) would have treated these children very well. To my shock I found out that "no" -- these children (due to their "genetics"? "race?") were hideously treated, cruelly shunned, ridiculed and abused (it was somehow assumed that the children had "nazi blood" and were thus "tainted."). As adults they had finally obtained the courage to come forward and, I believe they were asking for some form of compensation (they too felt themselves to be victims of WWII.) It was a kind of reverse racism (blond, blue-eyed orphans being spat at) -- but I kept thinking -- "how much have things really changed?" o well, different culture (?)

I think the leadership of the two parties is trying to reform, but neither hard enough nor fast enough for me.

[Link: www.ireland.com...]

re: #225 Fjordman

you see the same sort of thing in america were the left attacks conserative meetings and speakers, the ave person doesn't do the attacking but they don't do anything to prevent it. this esp happens in the part of society that liberal/left controls the univeristies, and skools (mispelled by choice)

I just have a hard time with this and feel very uncomfortable.
I keep thinking back about the Muslim Brotherhood/Nazi connections that started years ago.

snip
Nazi Islam

Heinrich Himmler, Head of SS, and close colleague of Amin Al-Husseini, financed and established Islamic Institute (‘Islamische Zentralinstitut’) in Dresden under the Mufti. The purpose was to create a generation of Islamic leaders that would continue to use Islam as a carrier for Nazi ideology into the 21st century. [xxxv]

[Link: www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com...]