it's so refreshing to see both sides treated fairly

re: #1 friarstale

it's so refreshing to see both sides treated fairly

Indeed, this is how discussions should be. But I guess it's part of human nature to have... uncivilised discussion. Tribal mentality, ego, all that stuff.

When I need a sauna, I'll call Sweden..... who cares if they elect their own asswarts?

...kidnap Israeli soldiers...

The first document, quoted above, obviously calls for Sweden to take an active stance against Israel for it's actions in Lebanon.

...At least, that's how Media Matters could spin it.

re:

It's good to see that there are political factions in the world that can try to show their stance and prove their points in an attempt convince, instead of insulting and browbeating you into submission like it is in politics here in the good ole USA.

I don't even pretend to understand the European mind-set. We should look askance at dubious credentials but not throw the baby out........Guess I'll just fence-sit for the time being and keep watching, listening and reading. However we don't need Charles and Pamela going at it hammer and tong.

Tom

re: #7 marinetb

I don't even pretend to understand the European mind-set. We should look askance at dubious credentials but not throw the baby out........Guess I'll just fence-sit for the time being and keep watching, listening and reading. However we don't need Charles and Pamela going at it hammer and tong.

Tom

yep - dissension in the ranks is good so long as it knows when to cease and desist for the sake of peace.

re:

Does anyone else have a problem opening these in Word? If not, I'm confused, because I've got Word up, and they're not loading.

I'm a bit frustrated.

I read the documents and I applaud there stance. But I believe everything needs to be taken in context. I have seen other things about the party that disgust me. I just hope there party moves forward in there anti-islamofascist aims, while crushing the fascist elements in its own ranks. I personally can not give a decision on the party now, but if the party continues its positive aspects and discontinues its negative aspects for a couple of year, then I could see myself supporting the party.

Thanks Charles for showing both sides of the story.

From this, Swedish Democrats look acceptable but I can't get those nazi costumes out of my mind. It is true that the party leaders banned them, but why were members wearing them in the first place?

Vlaams Belang is an easier call, it is a skinhead gang until proven otherwise.

re: #9 Pro-Bush Canuck

re: #6 Sponge

Yup. Too bad we're talking about Nazis here.

That's true too - slippery slope...

re:

re:

From the documents, it appears that they are normal (i.e. not racist or nazi) people. However, these documents may just be clever attempts to allay fears and garner support. I wish to see and learn more before I accept them as friends. Unfortunately, I don't know Swedish.

That said, I would also note that LGF also gets labeled—misnomers are often applied to us.

It is easy enough to convert them all to small PDF files.

From the last PDF.....

Most of these mistakes were made between the years of 1991 and 1994. During these years the party was temporarily radicalised due to bad leadership and the fact that the anti-immigration, populist party “Ny Demokrati” (New Democracy), was formed, reached the national parliament and drained our party on most of its more established members.
The worst of these mistakes was that the party didn’t distance itself from radical youths with sub cultural looks and that these were allowed to participate in some of the party demonstrations.
In 1995 New Democracy collapsed and the Sweden Democrats elected a new party leader. Since then we have been working very hard to distance ourselves from all forms of extremism, to learn from our mistakes and to change our image.
Today the Sweden Democrats are a totally different party than it was between 1991 and 1994. Almost all members from those years have left the party or have been kicked out and all members of the national board joined the party after that period.

Then why has their representative to the city council giving a speech at a rally in front of a Nazi flag in 1996?

re: #7 marinetb

However we don't need Charles and Pamela going at it hammer and tong.

Tom

I don't think it's fair to equate Charles' response to Pamela's accusation that LGF is bedfellows with CAIR.

re:

re:

The .doc files open fine in Abiword.

All joking aside, the documents above appear to be pretty cut and dry. However, it to me smacks of saying what you think others want to hear - not in the actual content of the letters, but the specific selection of topics they cover. If someone looked hard enough, they can probably find a few examples from any individual or organization that are rational responses that state the situation as you agree with. However, such a small portion, as above, would not convince me one way or the other (especially given that the dates for some of the documents are a few years old).

My personal opinion is to accept it with a grain of salt.

Right wing European parties are not like right wing American parties, and Charles is right to be leery of associating with them.

Not really interested in reading their literature.

This is all bullshit. why would a Nazi organization have so much English literature about how they're not really Nazis on hand?
These guys are worse than Vlaams.

re: #21 Pro-Bush Canuck

re:

They're all, self serving press releases.

We are sadly aware of that a few members, like in other parties, had said and done things that do not comply to the party politics. [...] But from the start the party has withheld it’s democratic, peaceful and non-racist ways which easily can be checked by reading the older party programs.

Why does that have an eerily familiar ring to it, remind anyone of another group?

On the other hand, unlike that other group:

However, we will not hide the fact that we have made serious mistakes in our past that have made it a lot easier for our opponents to put these labels on us.

Most of these mistakes were made between the years of 1991 and 1994. During these years the party was temporarily radicalised due to bad leadership and the fact that the anti-immigration,
populist party “Ny Demokrati” (New Democracy), was formed, reached the national parliament and drained our party on most of its more established members.

At least they're talking the talk.

The main objectives of the Sweden Democrats are to:

Restore the sense of a common identity in Sweden
through reduced immigration, a strengthening of the
Swedish culture and the abolishment of multiculturalism in
favour of assimilation.

Strengthen traditional values, Christian ethics, the nuclear family and the sovereignty of the Swedish state.

. . .

/definitely not what we'd call democrats and too far to the militant right for my particular tastes

When I need a sauna, I'll call Sweden..... who cares if they elect their own asswarts?

That's Finland. Sweden's gift to the world is Ikea.

Some one pass this link to BaBa Zee

[Link: www.thecapitolist.com...]

she should enjoy putting this out to the world
just so America gets the idea just how bad D.C. has become.

there are about 400 pages in the general fourm area,
mean mouthed little shits who work there and "We the People"
are paying them to talk about us like we are bugs.

Do they only want us to read articles that put them in a positive light only? You know how they say talk is cheap.

re:

So, is this truth or propaganda?

YOU be the judge.....

“The Sweden Democrats rejects Nazism, who’s lead motive is the “Führer”, “racial superiority” and aggressive war [...]”
The party action program for democratic development reads:
“Just as the name implies, the Sweden Democrats hails democracy as a form of government and firmly rejects antidemocratic movements, such as Nazism, Fascism and Communism.”

re:

The Bjorn Documents if not all of them... Where's the official party logo? Where are the markings? Where's the signature?

It looks suspect to me. Nothing about these documents appear to be official documents.

re:

re:

All right. It's a little strange to me that the two parties even need to so strenuously to distance themselves from Nazism. Even so, they do make the effort. So we've got two conflicting messages, here:

1) In this post they say, "We're not Nazis, don't like Nazis, weren't founded by Nazis..." and so on. Yet,

2) In a previous post they said, "Yeah, we don't wear the Nazi uniforms anymore."

So... which is it?

Frankly I'm a lazy citizen and I don't have a lot of free time on my hands. So anybody with a whiff of Nazism about them gets summarily tossed out of my mind. There are too many good and decent and unquestionably non-Nazi allies out there.

How bizarre, to even say such an obvious thing...

re: #32 ointmentfly

re:

I hope that that Ted Ekeroth reads down this thread, and attempts to respond to some of the good, honest questions being put forth here.....that would be even nicer............dialogue! :)

It's fairly easy for an organization with an unsavory past (or present) to put lipstick on a pig. Any fairly competent PR person could spin things however you see fit. We see this in American politics every day - the way you can take a snippet here and there and turn someone into the second coming of Hitler, Stalin, or equate Bush with the aforementioned genocidal /demicidal leaders.

It wasn't all that long ago that members of the Democratic party were segregationists - Bob Byrd was a KKKer. And yet at some point they got rehabilitated.

These various documents do give a snapshot of what the Sweden Democrats claim to be now, but it is their earlier history, and some ongoing concerns (like timeline issues in Killgore's excerpt above) and that they haven't fully broken away from that earlier history that worry me.

re:

Read the docs. They basically say they support Israel, want to keep Sweden Sweden, oppose Socialism, etc.

Obviously the documents are literature they handed out to try to dispel any misgivings about them. However, Charles presented multiple examples in his first post that showed quite a different picture than their literature states.

My opinion's not really been changed.

Personally, I think their stance is a littel self serving. I was able to extract the following from the first document, as it had the redlines and edit changes discoverable:

. . . and so, in the interests of getting laid, the leadership of the Sweden Democrats today resolves that we will disavow Nazism and have rotating visits to Kibbutz Ramat Nooki, where the weather is warm, and the babes are warmer.'

re: #32 ointmentfly

re:

Ron Paul.

I think Sweden Democrats have learned a few tricks from CAIR. The words don't pass the, uh, smell test.

Actions always speak louder than words.

re: #29 Dave the.....

Sweden's gift to the world is Ikea.

/and ABBA

I don't know about this Swede movement, but I have certainly met some Europeans who support Israel only because they hate Arabs even more than Jews. This is not a good reason.

re:

Charles,
After reading these links I don't think it's reasonable to present this propaganda without commentary or balance.
Controversies

During the Swedish general election in 1998 it was discovered that two of the party's candidates for municipal election in Malmö had previously been members of two outspoken Nazi organisations; one was a member of the Nysvenska rörelsen and the other was a member of the National Socialist Front. Also, one of the party leaders in Helsingborg played in a white power band that had performed at the August 1998 National Socialist Front rally.[13]
....
A Sweden Democrat holding a seat in Kristinehamn left the party in 2003 after writing several anti-Semitic and Holocaust-denying letters to various authorities.[36]
....
On 22 March 2003, the SD candidate in Helsingborg was arrested by the police when he, together with several known Nazis (including the local leader of Nationalsocialistisk Front) attacked an anti-racist demonstration.[38]
...
For the 2004 election to the European Parliament, the party received 200,000 SEK from the Belgian anti-Semite Bernard Mengal.

These people are scum not worthy of consideration.

As if the issue isn't muddled enough, now we have these documents to sift through.

I don't know what to think anymore. I think I'm just going to wait and watch before I finalize an opinion about them....

~ENT

re: #26 Killgore Trout

This is all bullshit. why would a Nazi organization have so much English literature about how they're not really Nazis on hand?
These guys are worse than Vlaams.

Well, this hullaballoo has been going on for several days.

This Belch and Swedish situation is kind of like Israeli politics, I have a surface knowledge, but don't know enough details to really make a conclusive decision.

I would think Bat Ye'or and Robert Spencer would be aware of the company they keep. On the other hand, I doubt they vetted every participant.

Of course, if Ms. Geller had stated her disagreement with the LGF position on the political parties in question without basically accusing LGF of writing CAIR talking points, more light than heat could have been shed on the subject at hand.

BTW, the fact that this leader of the Swedish party would write to defend his group would suggest he does care what people think. It isn't like Storm Front e-mails Charles trying to convince him that they are all on the same side.

re:

re: #46 Omega

Ron Paul.

Now, if we can prove that he took money from the stormfront nazi's AND the Sweden democrats, you may have something there......

re:

re: #29 Dave the.....

When I need a sauna, I'll call Sweden..... who cares if they elect their own asswarts?

That's Finland. Sweden's gift to the world is Ikea.

I thought it was Abba and Ace of Bass.

re:

re: #31 Milk Toast Intolerant

Do they only want us to read articles that put them in a positive light only? You know how they say talk is cheap.

To be absolutely fair, they are responding to Charles' and our concerns by addressing them. I don't know that I believe them, but at least they're responding with translations of press releases with a history, and they're answering the questions.

What I'd like to see is a good history article by someone who knows Swedish politics, written before this contretemps.

re: #26 Killgore Trout

This is all bullshit. why would a Nazi organization have so much English literature about how they're not really Nazis on hand?
These guys are worse than Vlaams.

I'm thinking they recently translated it from Swedish. The English is poorly constructed.

I don't know what to say other than the documents are poorly translated, rushed, Microsoft Word, un-official, no way of knowing what the heck about them documents.

The gentleman may as well have given us a Scanned Image of a Napkin with these words on em.

re:

re:

re: #53 EtNorskTroll

As if the issue isn't muddled enough, now we have these documents to sift through.

I don't know what to think anymore. I think I'm just going to wait and watch before I finalize an opinion about them....

~ENT

I think that's a mistake, honestly.

I spelled out my view a little more thoroughly in Post 38, but it comes down to this: We do not need to fall in with people who have a "muddled" background, when it comes to Nazism.

Never.

re:

I say we need Swedish lesbians, ham lovers, winos, gays and socialists on our side. Not ex-Nazis.

Especially Swedish lesbians.

re: #57 Pro-Bush Canuck

re:

They read a lot like a CAIR press release.

re: #46 Omega

Ron Paul.

Exactly. You can tell whether a candidate/party is rotten or not by who their supporters are.

re: #53 EtNorskTroll

As if the issue isn't muddled enough, now we have these documents to sift through.

Gee, except for the seven pager(six without the picture), they're all less than a page.

/don't wear yourself out

re:

Actions speak louder than words, but I believe this party is interested primarily in maintaining Swedish sovereignty and ethnicity. It is unfortunate that their cause was co-opted by radicals for a time and is now being ambushed by multiculturalist - politically correct idiots. I'd fight with them against the Islamists any time. Do not equate fascism with a people's desire to preserve their nationality against outside forces.

re:

re:

Good heavens, people.

The enemy of our enemy? What kind of trash is that?

I'll bail out of this joint in a hurry, if we start to think of Nazis -- or even the Nazi-ish -- as our friends.

Bill Clinton Rips into Moon Bats

re:

re:

re:

Jeez, living under Nazi overlords vs Muslim overlords. Tough call.

I think I would prefer the muslim overlords. More generally incompetent.

re:

I hope someone with a background in Swedish politics could weigh in on this further and give more insight than a couple of self-selected pressers. What are these guys really up to?

re: #77 Jewels (AKA Julian)

Bill Clinton Rips into Moon Bats

[Link:

from : [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Basic political ideas

The pillar of Sweden Democrats’ ideological message is manifest from the party's statement of principles, which it published in 2003:

"The critical ingredient of a safe, harmonic, solid and supportive society is the common identity, which in turn requires a high degree of ethnic and cultural uniformity amongst the people. From this, it follows that the nationalist principle, the principle of one state, one nation, is absolutely fundamental to the Sweden Democrats’ political values. The nationalist principle is based on the concept of the nation state, that the territorial boundaries of the state shall coincide with its demographic boundaries. In its ideal form, such a society is therefore ethnically homogenous. Cultural diversity is as necessary to mankind as biological diversity is to nature. The different cultures are mankind’s common heritage and they should be acknowledged and kept apart for the benefit of us all... Countries containing a multiple of relatively strong cultures have tended to develop in such a way that they end up diluting the different ethnicities and totally eradicating their original identities. We the Sweden Democrats believe that the safest way to protect the diversity of cultures, taking into consideration respect for human rights, is to do so as much as possible in the paradigm of the nation state." (Sverigedemokraterna 2003)

I couldn't open the last pdf file but I read the others. My take is that, if these papers are to be believed they might not be Israel/Jew-haters, but as the quote from the official policy declaration above shows they are nevertheless racists; like the BNP and some other European Nationalist far right parties these days they couch it in terms of preserving the purity of each race, rather than the superiority of their race. It's presented as a kind of 'equal opportunity racism' that is as much concerned with the future ability of Kenyans to run long distances as it is about the blue eyes and blond hair of Swedes. They equate nationality with race, and desire homogeneity and view mixed race as inferior. Whether the party publicly desires it or not, given their official statements on race and nationalism, it is perfectly understandable that they attract Nazis. These people stink and we don't need their stink on us.

re:

Any policy statements in those docs about making the trains run on time?

This from the last document:

However, we will not hide the fact that we have made serious mistakes in our past that have made it a lot easier for our opponents to put these labels on us.

Most of these mistakes were made between the years of 1991 and 1994. During these years the party was temporarily radicalised due to bad leadership and the fact that the anti-immigration,
populist party “Ny Demokrati” (New Democracy), was formed, reached the national parliament and drained our party on most of its more established members.

The worst of these mistakes was that the party didn’t distance itself from radical youths with sub cultural looks and that these were allowed to participate in some of the party demonstrations.

I think it was a bit more serious than that. My neck hairs are still standing up.

re: #83 lawhawk

I hope someone with a background in Swedish politics could weigh in on this further and give more insight than a couple of self-selected pressers. What are these guys really up to?

I think Fjordman has weighed in on this, no? On the side of the Swedish Democrats I believe. I could be wrong - don't hold me to this.

re:

Charles,

I applaud your willingness to examine both sides on an issue. I really do. But lifting this particular carpet has exposed what appears to be a nasty aspect, at least within the comments section here.

I'm curious -- pointedly curious -- to hear your thoughts.

I dunno. It is striking that they have contacted Charles in a civil manner, offered information in whatever manner, and not ranted and raved like lunatics usually do.

It is likely that for some, even if they have anti-semitic inclination, the threat of the Jew has long since faded into irrelevance as Jews disappear from Europe, while the Muslim hordes continue to pour in.

I am keeping an open mind. I am a member at Brussels Journal too, and there is a mix there of really fine people, obvious racists and anti-semites, and white-supremacists.

The same is true of many right wing blogs. Small Dead Animals in Canada, and frankly, LGF (sorry, 'tis true).

Somehow we have to support the good, weed out the bad, and not toss them all in the same junk heap.

Tough to do, but necessary.

Bill Clinton Rips into Moon Bats

[Link: [Link: www.liveleak.com...]...]

Yeah, I was watching that channel and they did the tease to the story...then my phone rang and I missed it. Yes, even the Clintons are being stalked by the truthers.

re:

Anyways, the final litmus test for me is how a group treats Jews.

That usually break any tie in my book.

~Norsk Troll

The only knowledge I have is from second cousins, via poor translations. I think there IS not viable conservative movement in Sweden, It is Left, More Left, and Incompetent.

This may be what passes for conservative. God help us all.

re: #63 Malatrope

re: #53 EtNorskTroll

You could take off your clothes and run around the room naked again....OOOOPS!

*looks around*

"Ya think?"

Heh...

~ENT

re:

re:

#92 june_july

According to Charles, Ekeroth was a rarity in his civil email. The others weren't.

re:

re:

Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas.

re:

re:

re:

Tropical Disturbance #90L bringing heavy squalls to Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands and Sant Maarten.

re:

re: #81 Maine's Michael

Jeez, living under Nazi overlords vs Muslim overlords. Tough call.

I think I would prefer the muslim overlords. More generally incompetent.

*Norsk Troll puts a loaded gun in his mouth, cocks the hammer back*

"Whah waf tha queftioon again, Michael?"

~ENT

re: