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Vlaams Belang Leader Interviewed

Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 8:23:56 am PDT

An interview with Vlaams Belang party leader Filip DeWinter, at Shire Network News: Podcast Implodes.

Tom Paine sets it up, probably for the last time:

I’m afraid we have some bad news. For reasons which are detailed in the podcast, this is probably the final Shire Network News, certainly at least in it’s current format.

We seem to have gotten ourselves smack-dab in the middle of the Blog Civil War that’s going on, and we managed to get ourselves ripped apart by the gravitational forces. Yes, yes, we TRIED reversing the polarity through the deflector array, didn’t work.

In part, the reason why “Brian of London” and “Tom Paine” in Australia have come to truce and treaty and the parting of the ways is the subject of this weeks special and probably last feature interview.

It’s with Filip Dewinter, leader of the Valaams Belang, the Flemish nationalist party in Belgium. As many of you already know, there has been a great disturbance in the Blog recently over the counter-Jihad movement cooperating with the VB and other European parties with questionable antecedents, such as the Swedish Democrats.

Shire Network News was offered the chance to put the tough questions to the man himself. And so, like idiots, we did.

And then...well, listen for yourselves.

For myself, “Tom Paine”, now that we seem to be in the Blogosphere equivalent of the week that Fort Sumter was fired upon, I reckon on lighting out for the territories for a spell, I figure I’ll be back when this has all blown over. And I’m sure all of us wish Brian of London great success with his family in their new country.

And perhaps it might be worth remembering that there’s a real enemy out there, and it’s not each other, m’kay?

Download it now, before it disappears.

UPDATE at 10/30/07 8:54:05 am:

The Shire Network News server is getting slammed, so here’s a local copy:

MP3 Audio

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686 comments

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1 BabbaZee  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:27:49am

it wont load... it is getting stampeded.

2 itellu3times  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:29:17am

Well, while y'all are overloading the video server, I'll make an OT here:

"Ron Paul Spammers" Targeted by UAB Spam Team
[Link: main.uab.edu...]

In the messages reviewed at UAB, emails were received from Brazil, El Salvador, Germany, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, and Nigeria already this morning. In each case it was clear that the computer sending the message did not belong to the person who was listed in the "From" address. Such as a Houston resident, whose email was sent from a computer in Italy, or a Silicon Valley computer worker, whose email was sent from Korea.
3 cosmo  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:29:52am

Gotta love the nod to Mr. Garrison.
The world would be better if Mr. Hand and Kathie Lee would play nice.

4 BabbaZee  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:29:58am

got it now

5 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:32:26am
And perhaps it might be worth remembering that there’s a real enemy out there, and it’s not each other, m’kay?

My enemy is tyranny in any form.

6 BabbaZee  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:33:53am

I hope he asks him about that statue in his home

7 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:35:05am

Yes, they're getting hammered.

8 Charles  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:35:46am

I have a copy of the mp3.

9 mama winger  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:35:57am

I can't get it to download.

10 marwan's daughter  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:35:58am

re: #3 cosmo

No, that's Mr. Mackey who says "M'kay".

Oh my gosh. This sucks. I like Shire News Network, and it's so sad to watch it fall apart.

11 Xevia  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:36:38am

I can't get it to download either

12 mama winger  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:36:50am

Still no

13 BrianA  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:37:01am

Anyone have the jist of the podcast while we're waiting for this thing to load?

14 WriterMom  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:37:14am

No worky!

Charles can you post an Mp3? He site is getting lizardlanched!

15 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:37:46am

re: #13 BrianA

The two gentleman are split over this issue- that's why the format might change.

16 realwest  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:37:48am

Crap, I can't get it to open up, much less download! Is it in english Charles? Is it long? Can you provide a transcript or do you think
Tom Paine has a transcript we can weasel out of him (we of course meaning YOU!)?

18 ibrodsky  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:38:06am

Thanks Charles for keeping to a steady course...

The whole point of fighting Islamization is to defend Western enlightenment--not throw it overboard.

19 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:38:12am

Mine's still on "getting file information".

Charles, is there a good "podcasts for dummies" primer on the Web? I just recently got a new phone with a 2Gb Micro SD card for music, and I want to use it to listen to podcasts like this (downloaded using my PC), and Hugh Hewitt interviews.

20 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:38:20am

He's talking about Charles and LGF....

21 bianchi_roadie  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:38:35am

I'm surprised how quickly this became an issue. I don't know if I should be pleased or frustrated. Pleased mostly because ideals seem to be winning out over "any enemy of my enemy is a friend" mindset that is all too common in political groups.

22 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:38:55am

Brian of London was at the conference.....

23 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:39:46am

dewinter denies they're neo-nazi- naturally

24 realwest  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:39:49am

re: #15 Sharmuta Which two gentleman are split over what issue?
Geez I hate being an ignoramus here, but I never heard of these guys before (other than DeWinter, I mean).

25 Killgore Trout  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:40:08am

"Problem loading page"

26 phoenixgirl  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:40:32am

can't open it

27 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:41:14am

Tom Paine is asking about the amnesty for nazi collaborators....

28 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:41:42am

re: #24 realwest

I guess the two guys who did this podcast program.

29 realwest  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:41:56am

re: #17 Lumpy Nothing like blog pimping on a thread like this and so early in the thread, too.

30 realwest  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:42:28am

re: #27 Sharmuta Oh Goody, that's my favorite!

31 Charles  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:42:29am

I'm going to listen in a few minutes and possibly post it here.

32 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:42:38am

He asks about the amnesty again!

33 Dirk Diggler  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:42:41am

Anybody got a transcript or synopsis? This podcast is not loading for me.

34 TheUnrepentantGeek  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:43:01am

Charles, any chance you could host the file here? Perhaps with permission and a plug? They're absolutely slammed.

I really enjoyed SNN ... sad to see it go, and I'd at least like to know what happened.

35 Killgore Trout  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:43:07am

re: #31 Charles


Thanks.

36 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:43:16am

Oh! It's okay because the soviets did it?!

37 BabbaZee  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:43:16am

ask him about the statue

38 Terp Mole  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:43:50am

In other interview news: Budding journalist meets "God thing";

Daily Texan: A Rather englightening[sic] experience

...After I gathered my bearings and settled into my window seat, I realized out of the corner of my eye that Dan Rather, remarkably one of the most visible and well-known journalists of the 20th century, was sitting directly next to me reading The New York Times.

I knew that it was no coincidence that I, an aspiring journalist, was sitting next to such an expert. I like to call situations like that a "God thing." I couldn't pass up the chance to have a conversation with him... I felt as if my body was floating above me, looking down and asking, "Is this really happening?"

Naturally, "God thing" offers a private interview w/ the charming young co-ed;

...he did write down his contact information which, by the way, I will not exploit. That stays between Mr. Rather and me.

He wrote down the names of three books he insisted I read. He encouraged me to read "Golden Girl" because it is the life story of Jessica Savitch, a female journalist who "lost her way." He gave me a jab and said that one of his suggested books is grim, "but it's no Harry Potter."

He was candid, intelligent and spoke to me as though we weren't 54 years apart in age.

In light of his recent media attention, I wanted to share my encounter with Dan Rather. The next time I am in New York, I sure as hell plan to take him up on his offer to show me around his office, and, who knows, maybe he'll offer me a job (yeah right).

... or maybe "God Thing" will offer "a position on his staff"? ...if you know what I mean... and I think you do...

Creepy that whole Jessica Savitch reference.

39 WriterMom  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:43:53am

re: #31 Charles

That would be great. Too many lizards trying to listen now.

40 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:44:11am

His excuse is contrived. He's obfuscating on amnesty...

41 Ma Sands  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:44:18am

re: #6 BabbaZee

Glad you remembered that. :) 'Course, ambiguity of words, purposeful, could defeat the question.....

42 Ben Hur  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:44:30am

I don't speak Swedish.

43 realwest  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:44:48am

THis is KILLING ME! I just timed out on trying to get the Podcast and have no effin' clue as to what's being said.
Damnit!

44 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:44:51am

linky no worky

45 americanpundit  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:45:04am

The server's getting absolutely slammed right now...

46 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:45:17am

He's trying to say people who committed war crimes- but the platform says full amnesty to all, doesn't it?

47 Yank in the EU  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:45:30am

I hope they ask him, as did Haaretz, if VB members still celebrate the memory of Nazi collaborator in the Holocaust, Gustave DeClercq.

What about his open support for the NPD, BNP, Le Pen and his FN, and Joerg Haider, the open Nazi sympathizer?

What about his appeals to the white nationalist ideology and attempts to bring the "White Power" crowd into the alliance?

48 WriterMom  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:45:59am

re: #47 Yank in the EU

You got a linky for that?

49 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:46:51am

Tom Paine is not letting him off the hook on collaborators.

50 Ben Hur  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:47:11am

One-legged Lithuanian lesbians.

The new Jews.

Now all they have to do is kill 3000 people in a terrorist attack and they'll finally get the props that have been denied to one-legged Lithuanian lesbians for hundreds of years.

Don't be a one-legged Luthuanina lesbianaphobe!

Stop the hate!

[Link: politics.guardian.co.uk...]

51 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:47:28am

Damn- now he has. dewinter's answer is BS.

52 realwest  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:47:34am

re: #36 Sharmuta What's ok cause the Soviets did it? Amnesty?
%$#&^$% Podcast anyway.
goes to sulk in corner, totally unable to hear the one interview I really wanted to hear.
Crap.
Shamutra, what'd he say about LGF?

53 BabbaZee  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:47:39am

His tongue digs his grave.

I would love a transcript, sans the stuttering.

54 marwan's daughter  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:48:02am

Someone please post a transcript after you are done listening.

55 realwest  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:48:33am

re: #46 Sharmuta Platform says ALL COLLABERATORS - FULL AND UNCONDITIONAL AMNESTY.
What the hell is DeWinter saying?

56 BabbaZee  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:48:37am

re: #41 Ma Sands

'Course, ambiguity of words, purposeful, could defeat the question.....


very true ma

57 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:48:41am

re: #52 realwest

Just that Charles is at the center of this for raising concerns.

58 Shemesh  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:49:38am

re: #51 Sharmuta

Damn- now he has. dewinter's answer is BS.

Please give a summary when you're done listening. Like many here I can't get it to load.

Thanx.

59 Yank in the EU  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:49:46am

re: #48 WriterMom

re: #47 Yank in the EU

You got a linky for that?

Sure. [Link: www.filipdewinter.be...]

60 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:49:50am

re: #55 realwest

He tried to say it only meant the ones who committed war crimes- not the one's who may have just helped a little.

61 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:51:03am

re: #58 Shemesh

He's obfuscating on what a "collaborator" is.

/Think bill clinton

62 realwest  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:51:18am

re: #53 BabbaZee Babba - what's he saying, with or without the stuttering, that digs his grave?

63 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:51:43am

Tom Paine brought in Ayaan & Pim's opinion of the party.

64 Golem Akbar  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:51:49am

Can't get it. However, if the VB/SD folks agree to disavow racism, Nazism, violence, mass deportations, etc., and perhaps even change their name (keeping the taint at arm's length), then I'm okay with them. Otherwise, no no and no. I don't trust them.

It has nothing to do with purity or any such thing. Anti-Islamofascism is not anti-Muslim or anti anything but anti-fascist. An alliance with fascists who are opposed to Islamofascism is still an alliance with fascists.

65 BabbaZee  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:52:21am

There's a hellified storm rising in Europe. GOD help them.... GOD help us all.

66 realwest  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:52:46am

re: #60 Sharmuta
That's NOT what the 2006 Party Platform says, it say ALL COLLABERATORS. Geez this is sooooo frustrating.

67 BabbaZee  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:52:52am

re: #62 realwest

I cant type it as he says it I am too intently listening

68 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:53:07am

He's asking him about the quotes Charles put up.....

69 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:53:40am

He's trying to explain away "white europe".

70 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:54:08am

Sounds like Tom Paine has been reading LGF.

71 Shemesh  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:54:18am

re: #61 Sharmuta

Thank you. Looks like most posters here have been vindicated.

Bet he's hating this.

72 WriterMom  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:54:34am

re: #59 Yank in the EU

Thanks. Not crazy about this bit:

Not all of the [Nazi] collaborators wanted to kill the Jews in Europe. Most of the collaborators had other motives. I think that if they were living today, most of them would be ashamed of what happened to the Jews. The only thing I can do today is to say that I respect very much the suffering of the Jewish people, to express my sympathy and condolences about what happened and to try to move far away from this. But the Jewish people must understand that not every collaborator was necessarily anti-Semitic."

73 Charles  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:54:37am

I've posted the interview above, with our audio player.

74 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:55:14am

re: #71 Shemesh

It vindicates Charles as well as our posters.

75 realwest  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:55:28am

re: #65 BabbaZee A "hellified" storm? Why do you say that.
(frustration over not hearing this or seeing a trasnscript is raising my BP level waaaaay too high!

CHARLES - is there gonna be a transcript (I'm assuming this is live - not a replay or anything like that).

76 Owl  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:55:34am

Thanks Charles! You rock, man.

77 Yank in the EU  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:55:45am

re: #72 WriterMom

Yes, that right there is an apology for Nazi collaborators if anyone ever saw one.

78 WriterMom  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:56:04am

Charles-Yank in the EU posted a great link @59.

79 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:56:41am

re: #77 Yank in the EU

Wait til you hear dewinter.

80 jcm  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:56:47am

re: #65 BabbaZee

There's a hellified storm rising in Europe. GOD help them.... GOD help us all.

God help us all! Amen. And we all thought Europe got over it's habit of war every other generation.

81 BabbaZee  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:57:11am

The answers he gives to certain questions are not answers to the questions asked at all, totally dissembling and diversionary.
Also part of his MO is he rambles at length to get the listener to forget the question has been deflected.

I wish this guy would ask about the statue

82 realwest  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:57:12am

re: #73 Charles ? Where above?!

83 Shemesh  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:58:03am

re: #74 Sharmuta

re: #71 Shemesh

It vindicates Charles as well as our posters.

That went without saying!

84 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:58:16am

Now he's discussing muslim immigration issues- so he sounds "reasonable" at this point.

85 stvip  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:58:23am

re: #64 Golem Akbar

if the VB/SD folks agree to disavow racism, Nazism, violence, mass deportations, etc.

Arafat disavowed all terrorism, repeatedly. In fact, all too often. We have to look deeper.

Anti-Islamofascism is not anti-Muslim or anti anything but anti-fascist.

Agreed. I wish everyone here thought likewise - I'm seeing far too many posts attacking Islam and Muslims in general, or denigrating the Koran (as with all religious texts, it's not the content, it's the interpretation and implementation). We're doing a great disservice to ourselves, pushing away Muslims who could've been pro-West, and supplying groups like CAIR with ammunition.

86 jcm  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:58:24am

re: #82 realwest

re: #73 Charles ? Where above?!

Reload page.

87 WriterMom  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:58:48am

re: #77 Yank in the EU

Yes-I agree with you.

88 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:58:57am

re: #82 realwest

re: #73 Charles ? Where above?!

Have to refresh whole page to see updates to OP

89 Just_A_Grunt  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:00:07am

At what point in the discussion should I insert a reference to "The Lost Book of Nostradamus" which seems to indicate a project completion date of 2010 - 2012 for the Armageddon Project?
/Guess I just did.

90 BrianA  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:00:26am

Pamela will be on with Capt. Ed discussing the Brussels conference, 3PM EST. You can call in and ask her what she thinks of the podcast.

Heading Right Radio

91 realwest  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:01:01am

re: #73 Charles Charles - where above did you post it with our Audio player - I can't see it anywhere!

92 jcm  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:01:01am

re: #89 Just_A_Grunt

At what point in the discussion should I insert a reference to "The Lost Book of Nostradamus" which seems to indicate a project completion date of 2010 - 2012 for the Armageddon Project?
/Guess I just did.

Does he have this weeks lottery numbers?

93 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:01:23am

"We should keep those colors out of europe"!

Woops! I think the mask slipped again.

94 americanpundit  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:01:43am
#91 realwest

You have to reload the entire page, not just the comments.

95 BabbaZee  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:01:50am

shit

he didn't ask him about the statue

96 blue_like_jazz  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:03:58am

REAL! reload the whole page... it's there.

97 realwest  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:04:15am

re: #88 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir) Thanks got it!
Listening now!

98 Owl  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:04:53am

re: #92 jcm

re: #89 Just_A_Grunt


At what point in the discussion should I insert a reference to "The Lost Book of Nostradamus" which seems to indicate a project completion date of 2010 - 2012 for the Armageddon Project?
/Guess I just did.

Does he have this weeks lottery numbers?

jcm, yeah he does.....but in the form of a picture of a blade of grass, hanging from a moon with three stars and a #2 pencil. On top of a five legged cat. You figure it out! ;) lol

99 Ben Hur  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:05:13am
100 lawhawk  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:07:07am

OT:

Media hysterics over dam problems in Mosul. Problems that have been known to the Iraqis since Saddam built the thing in 1984.

101 Shemesh  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:07:36am

Bye, bye VB and good riddance!

102 Charles  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:07:47am

re: #95 BabbaZee

shit

he didn't ask him about the statue

I think this interview was done before I posted the statue video.

If you read between the lines of what Tom Paine posted, it sounds like he was pressured not to release this. I can see why.

103 cookielady  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:08:01am

re: #85 stvip

I'm seeing far too many posts attacking Islam and Muslims in general, or denigrating the Koran (as with all religious texts, it's not the content, it's the interpretation and implementation).

Did you really just say it's not about the content of the koran? Are you serious? How do you misinterpret 'kill all infidels?"

Islam is an evil ideology based on a book of violence and hate, and a founder who was a thief, murderer and pedophile. There is no other interpretation.

It's such a shame... You can't fix stupid.

104 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:08:02am

OT:

Palestinian tunnellers were Army of Islam: police

ISMAILIA, Egypt (Reuters) - Three Palestinians caught entering Egypt through a tunnel from Gaza this month are members of an al Qaeda-inspired group who planned to enter Israel to carry out suicide attacks, police sources said on Tuesday.

The sources said the men told police they were from the Palestinian group Army of Islam, which kidnapped BBC journalist Alan Johnston in Gaza in March and took part in the abduction of an Israeli soldier last year.

One of the three men was caught wearing explosives around his waist and the group also had other explosives and hand grenades, the sources said, speaking on customary condition of anonymity.

105 Ben Hur  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:09:04am

'60 Minutes:' U.S. Military as Bad as Taliban

Look at that picture.

It's like they don't even try to hide their hidden messages anymore.

106 blue_like_jazz  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:09:08am

re: #102 Charles


Pressured by whom?

//dumb question mode ON

107 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:09:14am

re: #101 Shemesh

I'm really glad Tom Paine started with the platform. dewinter's answers left me feeling dirty.

108 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:10:42am

re: #104 NJDhockeyfan

OT:

Palestinian tunnellers were Army of Islam: police

One of the three men was caught wearing explosives around his waist and the group also had other explosives and hand grenades, the sources said, speaking on customary condition of anonymity.

Proper procedure should be to detonate the explosives in place, pali detonators and all.

109 BabbaZee  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:11:00am

re: #102 Charles

He comes right out and says he was pressured not to release it in his commentary at the end of the interview.

110 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:12:33am

The platform also has no distinction between secular muslims and islamists.

111 Shemesh  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:12:49am

re: #107 Sharmuta

re: #101 Shemesh

I'm really glad Tom Paine started with the platform. dewinter's answers left me feeling dirty.

He's done a very good job of making the man squirm.

And DeWinter's inability to provide a straight answer to most of his questions should give even the undecided cause for suspicion.

112 WriterMom  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:13:31am

re: #91 realwest

Realwest, click F5 to reload the entire page.

113 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:13:33am

re: #111 Shemesh

I would have jumped the platform first myself. It's pretty damning.

114 Ben Hur  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:14:26am

Um...there are no "interpretations" of the Koran.

That's the whole point.

There are no denominations like in Christianity. Too many to list.

Or Judaism - Hassid/Orthodox/Modern Orthodox/Conservative/Reformed/Reconstructionalist /and your out and out upside down pound cake.

Read Irshad Manji.

115 Ben Hur  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:15:24am

re: #114 Ben Hur

Maybe, if they start now, in 1500 years they could have 1500 years of interpretations- and they can even hijack more Jewish rhetoric and call it Al-Talmud.

116 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:15:25am

dewinter says neo-nazi presence in europe is "very small". Uh-huh.

/Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!

117 WriterMom  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:15:36am
I believe in cultures and values and our way of life...

I'm ok with that-as long as it excludes Nazis.

118 beens21  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:15:37am

[Link: www.dallasnews.com...] bizarro world.Silence! I sue you.

119 TheUnrepentantGeek  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:15:44am

re: #114 Ben Hur

No denominations? What would you call Sunni, Shia, Sufi, etc?

120 cookielady  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:16:12am

re: #114 Ben Hur

It is so sad, Ben Hur, that even here, there are some who just don't get it.

Hopefully, we can add a 'yet' to that!

121 realwest  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:16:40am

AH, he wants amnesty for collaberators so we can forget (and forgive? coulnd't hear well) the past. Also love the way he refers to the National Socialist "movement" and the "Germans"; why not just Nazi's?

122 Killgore Trout  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:16:44am

The real money question for me is at 14:00. When asked about Ayaan and Charles' questions about Vlaams he says we should ignore those who are trying to demonise us and unite against Jihad.

"look over there!"

123 Yank in the EU  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:17:06am

One of the revelations to come out through all of this is that many people in Europe who support fighting Islamism also support concepts of identity and nationalism that include an element of the white race. That's what a lot of this furor is about -- they are outraged at being charged with racism for what is, plainly, a racial ideology. The common response is to issue insults about Americans' ignorance and to charge that we are doing the same thing as the multiculti left, but that is fallacious reasoning. We have seen open defenses of this idea of racial nationalism by Fjordman, people at Brussels Journal, Gates of Vienna, etc; it is this deeply problematic ideology (which can often take very benign forms among all human cultures) that many of us staunchly reject and claim it will discredit and delegitimize the anti-Islamization cause. For instance, Brussels Journal has a piece up today that endorses the BNP and defends in one passage the racialist ideology.

124 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:17:46am

Q: What would you say to people who has concerns?

A: They shouldn't be concerned about vlaams belang.

Naturally!

125 stvip  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:17:49am

re: #103 cookielady

Did you really just say it's not about the content of the koran? Are you serious? How do you misinterpret 'kill all infidels?"

If the Koran is more intolerant than the Bible or the Talmud, the difference is quantitative, not qualitative. Once religious extremism arises, it will always find the justification it wants from their respective holy texts, since every religious corpus has messages and decrees of all kind. To allow and justify the murder of Rabin, the antiquated concepts of "Din Rodef" and "Din Moser" from the Talmud were revived, as always as a nominal replication of a Kabbalistic death-curse ritual, the Pulsa Denura. Others have suggested the Palestinian are "Sons of Amalek" (there is an order in the Bible to "destroy the seed of Amalek", taken to mean total annihilation of the people). I needn't tell you that the history of Christianity is mired in rivers of blood, and that this violence also found justification in the texts.

As I say - it's a matter of interpretation and implementation. Don't push peaceful Muslims away by threatening the core of their being when talking about deporting all Muslims, or censoring the Koran, etc. ; rather make sure they reject Islamofascism. And for the Islamofascists - try to make them change their ways, and if that fails, use whatever force necessary to eliminate the threat.

126 BabbaZee  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:18:01am
Yes, yes, we TRIED reversing the polarity through the deflector array, didn’t work.

I know just how you feel, Thomas Paine.
Thank you for doing this interview.

and now,
to a desperately needed nap.

127 astronmr20  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:18:05am

re: #99 Ben Hur

Iraqi Troops Donate $1000 to California Wildfire Aid, Media Mum

WOW.

And double-wow that it's not in the MSM...

128 Golem Akbar  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:18:41am

Pamela and others better watch their backs. The warning signs are all there. This does not bode well for Europe. The rising tide of Islamofascism is being met with a rising tide of another kind of fascism in Europe. LGF is anti-fascist. Period.

Now is the time to find the other European anti-fascists and begin a good dialogue with them. Not SD or VB.

129 Ben Hur  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:18:51am

re: #119 TheUnrepentantGeek


The Sunni Shia split had nothing to do with interpreting the Koran.

It was a power struggle.

130 The Other Les  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:19:05am

I have a number of things to say about those who reject the Society of Consent (and with it the legal equality of all persons) in favor of a system where some enjoy a superior status that allows them to exploit others.

And this applies to Marxists and Muslims as well as to Racial Supremacists.

I think some folks feel a need to feel superior to us mere mortals, but since they are not the creative or productive kind of person they must then resort to inventing a fantasy in the place of the commonly perceived reality.

And because we mere mortals reject the fantasies of the self-appointed superior beings they must in turn reject the society of consent and attempt to create a regime of coercion with themselves in charge, and to pursue destruction in the place of real positive achievement. But to accept reality as being real would not allow these people to pretend that they are some manner of superior person.

Especially when they are doing something that is totally depraved. Therefore they need to denigrate their victims, those persons, groups, or nations who are actually rational and good.


and...

A right of the individual is a restraint upon the powers of government and society as a whole. Which is perfectly all right for those of us who are rational and productive. But to those who irrationally choose parasitism as their mode of existence an individual right is like staring at the muzzle of a shotgun that is aimed at their own heads.

Because a rational individual cannot be expected to willfully consent to having a parasite living continually at their expense, the parasite must resort to force and fraud in order to sustain its own life.

Thus the parasite tend to favor dictatorships, with a fully functional apparatus of censorship and repression, over free societies with governments that are accountable to the citizens.

To the parasite, power over the productive is life.

Any restraint on that power -- be it the freedom of speech and press, the rights to self defense and to bear arms, or the process of democratic election -- is a danger to the parasite's continued existence. Thus the parasite must oppose tyrranicide, the liberation of the oppressed peoples, and the establishment of free republics.


and (speaking of Marxist but this apply to the VB)...

They have an idea, it is to replace the society of social and economic consent that we live in with the social and economic primacy of the parasites over the productive. Or as their primary philosophical source (and founding trustifarian) put it, "from each according to their ability, to each according to their needs." And as there is no limit to the needs of the parasite masters there will be no limit on the burdens imposed on the productive slaves.

Poison is poison no matter how much grape flavoring one adds to it. They cannot avoid knowing that their ideal society is toxic to us and thus have no effective choice but to attack the opposition on trivial issues in order to head off a public examination of their basic ideological premises.

Political ideology is basically a means of giving the appearance of positive virtue to actions that are morally intolerable to the victims.

131 JimmyTheClaw  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:19:06am

re: #85 stvip

re: #64 Golem Akbar

if the VB/SD folks agree to disavow racism, Nazism, violence, mass deportations, etc.

Arafat disavowed all terrorism, repeatedly. In fact, all too often. We have to look deeper.

Anti-Islamofascism is not anti-Muslim or anti anything but anti-fascist.

Agreed. I wish everyone here thought likewise - I'm seeing far too many posts attacking Islam and Muslims in general, or denigrating the Koran (as with all religious texts, it's not the content, it's the interpretation and implementation). We're doing a great disservice to ourselves, pushing away Muslims who could've been pro-West, and supplying groups like CAIR with ammunition.

have you ever read the texts and philosophy that is are at the core of islam?

132 goodbye_natalie  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:19:14am

Okay, I'll be the first to admit (that I've witnessed). Am I the only one that knows so little about Vlaams Belang that I can't even form an objective opinion?

I will say for the future record I will judge not by what they say but what they do.

133 gymnast  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:19:41am

re: #119 TheUnrepentantGeek

re: #114 Ben Hur

No denominations? What would you call Sunni, Shia, Sufi, etc?

Same book different shit?

134 Shemesh  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:19:42am

Tom PainE
"If you don't like what he said, that's probably because it's a pile of shit"

135 realwest  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:19:52am

WHAT? Those bloggers who oppose us are from the LEFT?!

136 TheUnrepentantGeek  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:19:54am

If your culture has nothing to do with the color of your skin, why call it a "white culture?"

This guy creeps me out.

137 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:20:12am

"We speak up for the majority of european people who think like us."

Very "nuanced".

138 justnobody  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:20:31am

The guy is lying. The only amnesty the Soviet Union gave to Nazi collaborators came in the form of a shot in the back of the head. If he would have known anything about Russia and the Soviet Union, he would have understood that this is inconceivable.

139 Killgore Trout  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:20:42am

re: #123 Yank in the EU

We have seen open defenses of this idea of racial nationalism by Fjordman, people at Brussels Journal, Gates of Vienna, etc; it is this deeply problematic ideology (which can often take very benign forms among all human cultures) that many of us staunchly reject and claim it will discredit and delegitimize the anti-Islamization cause.


I agree. I've watched their nuanced explanations of racial identity and it's pretty clear to me that the have learned nothing from past atrocities but also seem eager to repeat them.

140 rjjago  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:21:08am

What scum. The VB leader just wouldn't answer the question about his daughter bringing home a lesbian or a black guy.

I can't believe SNN would fall apart over this idiot.

As an aside, his plan to deport non-muslims who can't prove they have assimilated sounds very similar to the Parti Quebecois proposal last week:
[Link: www.cjnews.com...]

141 WriterMom  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:21:15am

re: #136 TheUnrepentantGeek

I hope his daughter marries an Ethiopian Jew.

(just kidding)

142 stvip  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:21:26am

re: #120 cookielady

You could have said the same about Imperial Japan. Hard to think of a worse destructive death cult, except the Nazis. Extreme cultural reform didn't take long.

143 Killgore Trout  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:22:44am

re: #138 justnobody

I thought that was an odd statement too. I'm pretty sure he said The Soviets granted amnesty in the 60's.

144 jimmah  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:23:19am

Listening to him squirming over his phrase "white Europe" is hilarious.

145 Ben Hur  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:24:26am

Imperial Japan?

They were resisting American Imperialism!

They were resistance freedom fighters!

Yeah, sure they occupied, raped, murdered and pillaged half of Asia, but it's different - they weren't Americans!

We had slavery!

We had the Manifest Destiny!

We were Christians!

146 WriterMom  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:24:38am

The interviewer's voice is like BUTTAH.

147 Render  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:24:46am

re: #144 jimmah

I'm sure the phrase "white Europe" went over very well with the David Duke audience...

BUSTED,
R

148 Ben Hur  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:24:54am

bbl

149 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:25:08am

OT

Hamas taking lessons from Hezzballah, establishing defensive bunkers in Gaza

Brig.-Gen. Moshe "Chico" Tamir, head of the Gaza Division, said Monday that Hamas was trying to establish a bunker system as well as fortified rocket-launching and surveillance positions along the security fence with the Gaza Strip.

Tamir said that Hamas was "building an army" in the Gaza Strip and had obtained unprecedented capabilities through smuggling tunnels between Gaza and Egypt. On Monday, head of the Shin Bet (Israel Security Agency) Yuval Diskin said that since Israel's withdrawal from Gaza in 2005, the Palestinians have smuggled over 112 tons of explosives into the Strip.

"They are trying to dig tunnels, build surveillance positions and mortar-fire stations along the fence," Tamir told reporters during a briefing concerning Efrati's death. "They are trying to build this up and we are trying to stop them."

150 mean Gene  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:26:01am

Jeremiah 13:23 says:

Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots?

Shakespeare repeated this truth in Richard II i. i. 174:

Rage must be withstood. %u2025Lions make leopards tame.—Yea, but not change his spots.

Back when I was in school we had school prayer AND daily Bible readings.
I remember well a third or forth grade teacher making this comparision.
She brought it up after our class bully promised to change and stop beating other, smaller boys up in the restroom.
She was right, he did it again.

The roots of VB are racist and racism WILL emerge again from it.
They can play at PR and make a pretty sound bite, but I'm not falling for it.

One sad note is that REUTERS is paying attention here, looking for a way to tear LGF apart from like-minded persons and organizations over this.
It should be no big deal.
It shouldn't be a requirement to follow a pack in support of any particular viewpoint.
One picks their friends, one picks their associates, one picks those they choose NOT to associate with, too.
VB should not be imposed on LGF by PC or any other external media campaign.

151 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:26:33am

He said he has respect for islam!

SO! He's spouting the PC line of BS that the entire conference was supposed to be working against. He's no better than President Bush!

I don't see how this man and his party help our cause- period.

152 stvip  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:29:02am

re: #145 Ben Hur

I understand the sarcasm, but why do you think Islam is worse than Japanese Imperialism? Do you think the former is inherently incorrigible, unlike the latter?

And for those who think peaceful Islam is impossible, that there is simply no way to implement the Koran peacefully, what exactly are you suggesting we do about Muslims and the Koran?

153 WriterMom  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:29:02am

Listen to him going on about the lesbians and the "negroes". OY.

154 bulwrk  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:29:19am

re: #142 stvip

4 years and 2,600,000 dead japanese

155 Cap'n DOC  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:29:40am

re: #90 BrianA

I'm through talkin' to Pamela. She poked a hole in her dinghy several weeks back. And it matters not that she withdrew her name as a contributor to the site I called her on. She gets no more attention from me.

156 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:29:59am

re: #152 stvip

what exactly are you suggesting we do about Muslims and the Koran?

Ain't that the $24,000 question?

157 Ringo the Gringo  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:30:17am

Listening to him talk about Flemish nationalism makes me so glad that in America nationalism has nothing to do with race or ethnicity....American nationalism (or patriotism as most Americans call it) is about pride in our country and it's ideals, not in any specific ethnicity.

I Thank God my grandparents and great-grandparents packed up and left Europe. This is exactly the type of Sh!# they wanted to leave behind.

158 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:30:36am
159 Golem Akbar  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:30:42am

re: #131 JimmyTheClaw

have you ever read the texts and philosophy that is are at the core of islam?

It ought to be clear to everyone that these books, the Torah, the Christian Bible, the Koran, and others, are very open to intrepretation. That interpretation comes from human leaders. When the leaders interpret in an enlightened way, we have great and tolerant societies. We have art, creativity, education, opportunities to create wealth, and more. When the leaders interpret their holy books in a way that is restrictive, authoritarian, and harsh, we have the middle ages, darkness, fascism, inquisitions, pogroms, and worse. The best of religion produced the renaissance. The worst...well, we know what that does.

So don't bash Islam just because you think Islamofascism is Islam. It isn't.

160 rappmandu  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:31:07am

re: #150 mean Gene

Freedom of association. BINGO!

VB, what part of "No" don't you understand?

161 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:31:36am

Wow! Tom Paine really lays it out in his closing! You'll love it, Lizards.

162 Malatrope  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:31:43am

None of this surprises me, btw. For as long as I have been paying attention (09112001) many people have been predicting a sharp upthrust of the European extremist groups, in opposition to the jjihad. We are just watching this play out. Surely it doesn't catch anyone off guard...? Charles was paying attention, and evidently formed his position long ago and is now standing firm on it.

The same thing is happening all over the world, as the extremists see an opportunity to ingratiate themselves with the general population.

163 Roger  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:31:47am

re: #6 BabbaZee

He didn't :-( Instead is was the ole' what if your daughter doesn't do as you prefer. ugh

164 Deafdog  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:31:50am

re: #157 Ringo the Gringo

Ditto

165 TheUnrepentantGeek  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:32:12am

re: #129 Ben Hur

Lots of religions have formed different denominations over power struggles. The doctrines aren't even all that different, often enough.

Of course, the core text could be the same, but you can also add texts on and interpret the original text through other texts. Point is there's lots of ways to filter a text. Granted every filter your average Muslim fundamentalist has applied seems to be a variation on how, precisely, to kill the Joooooo.

So. Distinction without a difference from our perspective. They seem quite willing to kill each other over such distinctions. Far be it from me to contradict the guy with the AK.

166 WriterMom  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:32:17am

"Shit is still shit."

167 rappmandu  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:32:21am

VB drinking thread!

/

168 WriterMom  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:33:15am

The closing is really excellent.

169 Deafdog  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:33:44am

re: #158 buzzsawmonkey

I heard that story before, but instead of a generic "river" it is the Nile or the Tigris or the Euphredes. And instead of "It's in my nature", the scorpian replies, "Because this is the middle east."

170 Cap'n DOC  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:34:44am

re: #85 stvip

Oh boy... Where do I start?

Denigrate the koran?

You have got to be kidding me! They call it holy and use the term i'jaz like a scimitar to protect this piece of crap. There was no 'divine' author for the koran! How can it be denigrated? I'll tackle the rest of your comment when you've satisfied me that you got the picture. It cannot be denigrated. It is not denigratible.

171 WriterMom  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:35:04am

Hmmm.

172 goodbye_natalie  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:35:07am

re: #152 stvip

And for those who think peaceful Islam is impossible, that there is simply no way to implement the Koran peacefully, what exactly are you suggesting we do about Muslims and the Koran?

My first question before I answer that is can you give the country where practicing Islam has emigrated, where some religion (or lack thereof) other than Islam is predominate, that Islam has been implemented peacefully?

Offhand, I can't think of one is the reason I ask.

173 Malatrope  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:35:11am

re: #169 Deafdog

If it were a smart frog, it would ask that the scorpion remove its stinger and give it to the bartender for safekeeping.

174 Killgore Trout  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:35:35am

Fresh off the presses....
Jewish community furious at De Wever

The Jewish community is furious at N-VA chairman Bart De Wever who has dismissed the apology offered on Sunday by Mayor Patrick Janssens. Janssens apologised to Jews on behalf of Antwerp for the involvement of Antwerp city officials in the organising of deportations of Jews during the Holocaust. "De Wever is spitting in our faces with his comments," says Michael Freilich, editor in chief of Joods Actueel. The Jewish community is particularly outraged at De Wever's comment that the apology was not necessary.
....
De Wever thinks that Janssens is using the Holocaust in his battle against ultra right wing Vlaams Belang, while Israel is "using practices in Palestine that remind me of that dark past," De Wever contends.

175 Mr Spiffy  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:35:49am

Don't use the devil's tools to do G-d's work

whoever said that (or something like it) was a true genius.

176 Deafdog  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:35:59am

re: #159 Golem Akbar

The folks who take quotes out of the Koran remind me of Media Matters who take Rush out of context. The Koran is just a book.

Islam is what Islam does.

177 Cap'n DOC  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:36:26am

re: #159 Golem Akbar

Someone else joins the 'Defend the koran' crowd. Geeesh. See my #170. Don't bother unless you know what the term i'jaz means. If you don't know, look it up.

178 realwest  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:36:42am

I just LOVE this "I have respect for Islam, and muslims, but not over here"!
Yeppers, he's anti-Islamist's, but he's also against ANY muslims who don't integrate and accept HIS values and HIS traditions, values and way of life.

179 rappmandu  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:37:16am

You can pick your friends.
You can pick your nose.
You cannot pick your friend's Vlaams Belang's nose.

/

180 WriterMom  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:37:27am

re: #152 stvip

Islam is different because it's portable. Imperial Japan was contained and fortunately-obliterated.

What kind of comments are you fishing for anyway?

181 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:38:40am

Tom Paine hasn't freed his "mindset".

182 stvip  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:38:44am

re: #154 bulwrk

4 years and 2,600,000 dead japanese

I never suggested the war against Islamofascism has to be pretty.
I do strongly disagree with people who think "Islamofascism" is a roundabout way to spell "Islam".
So yes, the Koran is full of passages allowing violence. It's also full of passages prohibiting violence. The question is - what kind of fatwas will be issued, and who will listen to which fatwas, etc.
If there is a will to be peaceful, the Koran can implemented peacefully. The problem isn't specifically the Koran, it is the lack of will to coexist and tolerate, and the existence of the will for violence and destruction. Religious justification can come later.

183 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:39:07am
184 realwest  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:39:13am

Loved Tom Paine's concluding statements.

185 WitchDoctor  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:39:48am

Ah screw it, flesh eating [classified] is on the way anyway (thanks hot air):
[Link: www.theonion.com...]

186 phoenixgirl  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:40:49am

sh#t is sh#it and some people are choosing to roll around in it

187 WriterMom  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:40:58am

re: #182 stvip

If there is a will to be peaceful, the Koran can implemented peacefully. The problem isn't specifically the Koran, it is the lack of will to coexist and tolerate, and the existence of the will for violence and destruction. Religious justification can come later.

So, you are saying that the Koran is really ok and not the problem "specifically", it's just that the followers lack the will to co-exist and be tollerant? Where do you think the followers ever might get their ideas from?

Don't you get that Islam is a revealed religion?

188 mahatma coat[deleted]  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:40:59am
189 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:41:27am

re: #182 stvip

Religious justification can come later.

Oftentimes with islam that comes first.

190 Mr Spiffy  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:41:27am


Agreed. I wish everyone here thought likewise - I'm seeing far too many posts attacking Islam and Muslims in general, or denigrating the Koran (as with all religious texts, it's not the content, it's the interpretation and implementation). We're doing a great disservice to ourselves, pushing away Muslims who could've been pro-West, and supplying groups like CAIR with ammunition.


it is the content

191 Ben Hur  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:42:09am
Martin Sheen said that he was dubious about questioning the official story until his son introduced him to new information about the anomalies of what happened on that day.

"Up until last year, I was very dubious," said Sheen, "I did not want to believe that my government could possibly be involved in such a thing, I could not live in a country that I thought could do that - that would be the ultimate betrayal," he added.

"However, there have been so many revelations that now I have my doubts, and chief among them is Building 7 - how did they rig that building so that it came down on the evening of the day?" said Sheen.

Sheen also questioned the comments of Larry Silverstein, the leaseholder of the WTC complex, who told a September 2002 documentary that the decision was made to "pull" Building 7, a demolition industry term for the deliberate implosion of a structure.

"How convenient," said Sheen, "When did they rig that building? That's the most interesting question and I have not received a satisfactory answer - nobody could give me an answer to how you rig the building - what a coincidence - two weeks prior and then bring it down on the day, that is the one thing that I have not got a sensible answer about from anyone," he concluded.

Sheen also stated that NORAD's failure to follow its standard operating procedure on 9/11 was "something to wonder about

192 wanumba  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:42:12am

Whoa.
Separating the sheep from the goats.
Well, better NOW then in two or three or ten years down the road when people are so far compromised that the common defense is damaged.

193 Golem Akbar  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:42:18am

re: #170 Cap'n DOC

have you ever read the texts and philosophy that is are at the core of islam?

And it does not matter, Doc. If you want to debate the Koran vs. whatever you believe, fine. I may even agree, on many parts. I'm not defending the Koran. I'm saying that it is the leaders (leaders!) that interpret their holy books and put them into action. If that action is fascistic, then it has to be stopped. But if that action is not fascistic, then you can debate with them, and offer something better in the marketplace of ideas. There is no marketplace of ideas with fascists. Regardless of which holy book is used as a justification.

194 realwest  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:42:19am

Tom Paine: If what he says makes you uncomfortable, maybe it should.
Indeed.

195 J.S.  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:42:26am

I liked the interviewer and his questions. so Dewinter wants mass deportations for any Muslim who fails to assimilate? And if one of his daughters brought home a Black or lesbian, then he'd know he'd raised her wrong? And the anti-multiculturalism (yes, it has problems) but what does Dewinter wish to replace it with -- monoculturalism?

196 Just_A_Grunt  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:42:30am

OT: Bigfoot sighted and a Republican Muslim too.

WASHINGTON (Map, News) - Republican delegate nominee Faisal Gill said a voter recently asked him about his Muslim faith, saying, “At the end of the day, you are going to vote for your people?”

“Which people?” Gill responded, saying that many Northern Virginia Muslims are Democrats and that he is often on the other side of issues. During a bruising campaign for an open seat in Prince William County’s competitive 51st District, Gill said he has embraced the responsibility of explaining his faith on the campaign trail.


Except for this incident.

the FBI asked Gill about his contract work for the American Muslim Council in 2001, when he performed legal and public affairs duties for the organization.
The group was founded and led by Abdurahman Alamoudi, who later was convicted of financing terrorism.
While Gill was cleared and went back to work the following week, the brief episode has hampered his political quest.

Okay benefit of the doubt here, I just found it intriguing that a Muslim could be found running as a Republican, kind of a double curse or just asking for trouble.

197 jcm  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:42:43am

re: #185 WitchDoctor

Ah screw it, flesh eating [classified] is on the way anyway (thanks hot air):
[Link: www.theonion.com...]

We all know that is funding for Area 51, the chemtrails and more black helicopters.
/

198 gymnast  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:43:12am

re: #152 stvip

re: #145 Ben Hur

I understand the sarcasm, but why do you think Islam is worse than Japanese Imperialism? Do you think the former is inherently incorrigible, unlike the latter?

And for those who think peaceful Islam is impossible, that there is simply no way to implement the Koran peacefully, what exactly are you suggesting we do about Muslims and the Koran?

What do want to start with first, the former, the latter, the Muslims, or the Koran? I would suggest that if you are not willfully ignorant, you get up to the same speed as is customary around these parts. No offense intended.

199 Cap'n DOC  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:43:37am

re: #182 stvip

The koran is not just full of violence, but it is full of Contradictions. This is not possible if it contains the very word of 'allah', which it does not. Therefore, it is worthless and contains bits and pieces with Judeo-Christian roots and crap that mohammedan cooked up whilst toking the water pipe and being the standard very un-allah like pedophile.

200 Deafdog  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:43:51am

re: #183 buzzsawmonkey

Got ya. But the "because this is the middle east" response paints an accurate picture of that area of the world these days. Crap like suicide bombers who kill for $hitheads like Bin Laden.....what rubish.

201 jcm  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:44:14am

Why do I have the urge to take a long hot shower with bleach listening to this guy?

202 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:44:37am

re: #191 Ben Hur

What an idiot Sheen is.

203 Iron Fist  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:45:03am

re: #159 Golem Akbar,


So don't bash Islam just because you think Islamofascism is Islam. It isn't.


Everywhere we see Mohammedan Groups we see support for Terrorism and Jihad (as if there is any difference). CAIR, Muslim Brotherhood, MAS, HLF, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hizbollah, whatever, these are just facets of the same stone.

We keep saying that the "good Muslims" need to take back Islam from ther Islamofascists, but how is this really possible? The "good" Muslims are the "tiny minority".

Mohammed was the first Islamofascist. How, then, does one differentiate Islam from Islamofascist?

204 Ben Hur  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:46:05am

re: #152 stvip

re: #145 Ben Hur

I understand the sarcasm, but why do you think Islam is worse than Japanese Imperialism? Do you think the former is inherently incorrigible, unlike the latter?

And for those who think peaceful Islam is impossible, that there is simply no way to implement the Koran peacefully, what exactly are you suggesting we do about Muslims and the Koran?

I think they're very similar, in fact.

It's not for us to "do something" about Muslims and the Koran.

There are a lot more Muslims today than Japanese on their island.

But it shows you that you can impose Democracy.

Otherwise, separation of cultures, manhattan project to get us off MOSt of our oil -getting off all is impossible. Benchmark all aid to Muslims countries - or cut it all off. I like the Sharansky model as well.

205 AirForceWife  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:46:07am

#103 cookielady 10/30/07 9:08:01 am 0


re: #85 stvip

I'm seeing far too many posts attacking Islam and Muslims in general, or denigrating the Koran (as with all religious texts, it's not the content, it's the interpretation and implementation).

Did you really just say it's not about the content of the koran? Are you serious? How do you misinterpret 'kill all infidels?"

Islam is an evil ideology based on a book of violence and hate, and a founder who was a thief, murderer and pedophile. There is no other interpretation.

It's such a shame... You can't fix stupid.

Thank-you! How else are we supposed to interpret a text where a "prophet" receives revelation that it's perfectly acceptable to take women from your enemy as sex slaves? I can only imagine the outrage if someone were to say about Mein Kamf "it's not about the content of the text, but about the interpretation and application". I would be outraged at such a comment. Why is one evil ideology given the type of accommodation by the mainstream that another one never would be given?

206 Killgore Trout  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:46:19am

re: #184 realwest

Yes, it was an excellent job. I'm very glad he had the courage to post it. It's good to know that there are still plenty of people with moral courage out there.

207 Golem Akbar  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:46:50am

re: #199 Cap'n DOC

re: #182 stvip

The koran is not just full of violence, but it is full of Contradictions. This is not possible if it contains the very word of 'allah', which it does not. Therefore, it is worthless and contains bits and pieces with Judeo-Christian roots and crap that mohammedan cooked up whilst toking the water pipe and being the standard very un-allah like pedophile.

I'm saying that it does not matter. If the Koran is used to justify fascism, then blame the fascists. The Koran could just as easily be used to justify democracy.

Debate your mo'bettah book elsewhere.

208 goodbye_natalie  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:47:47am

re: #190 Mr Spiffy

Agreed. I wish everyone here thought likewise - I'm seeing far too many posts attacking Islam and Muslims in general, or denigrating the Koran (as with all religious texts, it's not the content, it's the interpretation and implementation). We're doing a great disservice to ourselves, pushing away Muslims who could've been pro-West, and supplying groups like CAIR with ammunition.

True, not fair to broadbrush all individuals. But is it not also fair to judge a text, no matter its interpretation by its fruits? If you were to set up a ledger with history's plusses and minuses, the book "revealed" by the Angel Gabriel, doesn't rate very highly in its good works.

209 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:49:00am

I'd like to accept Mr. DeWinter's explanations, as I agree with a lot of what he says, but I'm listening now, and he is defending a platform of amensty for Nazi collaborators.


It shows at least some people in the party have a concern with the Nazis, and it is also stupid, how many 85 year old Nazi collaborators are being prosecuted in Belgium now anyway?

210 mama winger  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:49:06am

re: #207 Golem Akbar

The Koran could just as easily be used to justify democracy.

Really?

Examples, please.

211 jimmah  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:49:24am

Listening now to him squirming over his comment about his daughter coming home with a lesbian or black person. Pathetic.re: #122 Killgore Trout

The real money question for me is at 14:00. When asked about Ayaan and Charles' questions about Vlaams he says we should ignore those who are trying to demonise us and unite against Jihad.

"look over there!"

Yes...that was blatant.

212 jcm  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:49:43am

re: #202 Ward Cleaver

re: #191 Ben Hur

What an idiot Sheen is.

Idiot Sheen, that's redundant.

213 bulwrk  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:50:55am

re: #182 stvip


The problem isn't specifically the Koran, it is the lack of will to coexist and tolerate,


muslims believe the koran is the absolute word of allah dictated to mohammed and not open to interpretation or revision, so based on that assumptoin I fail to see how an islamic reformation can take place.

214 mama winger  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:51:13am

re: #210 mama winger

re: #207 Golem Akbar

The Koran could just as easily be used to justify democracy.

Really?

Examples, please.

Because that is a ludicrous statement.

215 stvip  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:52:32am

re: #180 WriterMom

Islam is different because it's portable. Imperial Japan was contained and fortunately-obliterated.

Imperial Japan was expansionist, actually viewed brutality as a virtue, and indeed, committed every war crime they could. A generation later and Japan is a democratic, pro-Western, peaceful country (though racism is still very much alive there).

The whole connection of Islam and terrorism is not as simple as you make it out to be. Islamism is on the rise, it is a galvanizing and unifying force for the war against the West. But anti-Western anti-Jewish terroristic violence existed before this. Arafat and the PLO were secular, and Communism used to be a rallying cry for other Palestinian terror groups. Now that Islam is involved, it becomes both a stronger force, and a bigger mess to sort out, as the banner of Islam allies together disparate players.

Our goal is to separate Islam from Islamofascism, and eradicate Islamofascism - and any other form of fascism that becomes a threat. Not eliminate Islam and the Koran.

216 Kenneth  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:52:47am

The interviewer points out that anti-jihadists like LGF and Hirsi Ali have condemned Vlaams Belang as a racist party. Filip Dewinter responds by saying left-wing groups are always saying this, that we should ignore them and unite. Somehow, I find his answer unconvincing.

217 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:52:52am

Mr. Paine has a voice and accent tailor made for PBS, BTW.

Not saying he intellectually belongs on PBS.

Or doing ads for luxury import cars.

218 Golem Akbar  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:54:29am

re: #208 goodbye_natalie

re: #190 Mr Spiffy


Agreed. I wish everyone here thought likewise - I'm seeing far too many posts attacking Islam and Muslims in general, or denigrating the Koran (as with all religious texts, it's not the content, it's the interpretation and implementation). We're doing a great disservice to ourselves, pushing away Muslims who could've been pro-West, and supplying groups like CAIR with ammunition.

True, not fair to broadbrush all individuals. But is it not also fair to judge a text, no matter its interpretation by its fruits? If you were to set up a ledger with history's plusses and minuses, the book "revealed" by the Angel Gabriel, doesn't rate very highly in its good works.

Okay, maybe yes, maybe no. But the place to prove that your beliefs are better than, say, mine, are not the same as saying that fascists are trying to dominate some religion.

The majority of Muslims aren't fascists, even if there are some strong authoritarian writings in theri holy book. The Torah, without human interpretation (the talmud, for example), can be very harsh and authoriarian. But Jews throughout history have reinterpreted it, changed the effect of laws, and have produced a very fair and effective set of laws (my belief). Christianity too can be harsh. The inquisition? Pograms? Even mass deportations and in some cases genocide can be justified in the bible. But not today. Why? It's obvious. Good leaders. History has taught us better. Etc.

Islam needs more reformation. That's why I say don't bash the Koran. It's not the real enemy.

219 spam spam spam spam  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:55:09am

If the Flemish insist on breaking Belgium up into "nationalities", should the U.S. or a coalition consider intervention, even military, to hold the country together? Seat of NATO and all.

220 AirForceWife  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:55:15am

188 mahatma coat 10/30/07 9:40:59 am reply quote report 0

it seems possible that once again european nationalism will rear its ugly head.Good .I have no plans to buy a prayer mat any time soon .Nationalism (despite its more ugly expressions )is the only way to defend against the jihad.Its the opposite of the multi-culti pablem we've been fed the past few decades and we'll deal with its downside once its done its job
ps. re:157 american ethnicity simply is anglo saxon .Its what we call integration

Nationality taken to an extreme the way Hitler did is very destructive. The opposide side of the spectrum however is a complete lack of nationalism which I think can be just as destructive. A society that has a complete lack of nationalism will self-destruct because it will fail to unite in its own defense.

221 jcm  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:55:39am

re: #214 mama winger

re: #210 mama winger

re: #207 Golem Akbar

The Koran could just as easily be used to justify democracy.

Really?

Examples, please.

Because that is a ludicrous statement.

No where the Quran give the individual the choice to accept or reject the religion. Core to the Jewish faith and Christian faith, from Genesis 1 is the concept that the individual is free to choose to follow the faith.

That concept of the individual have the the liberty to decide their religious path is the founding block of the western idea of individual liberty and democracy.

222 mean Gene  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:55:54am

The final part of Paine's show is what people need to hear.
What we are fighting for is important, but who is in the foxhole next to ours is also important.
The US made nice with Stalin once, and only through that means could the Nazi's have been defeated.

So, there is precedent for taking on a strange bedfellow.
But there is no reason to take on a dishonest partner.
And, if Filip DeWinter showed us anything it was that VB can revert to it's origins easily.
More easily than some in the anti-jihadi movement want to believe.
My guess is that those particular anti-jihadis don't have roots like many of us, roots that caused us/our parents to FLEE Europe.
Or, perhaps they are so ignorant of their own roots that they simply don't realize that their ancestors fled Europe for good reason.

I'm reminded of the Bruce Bawer book, While Europe Slept, in which Bruce points out the huge disconnect between the elites (who run every European country) and the regular folks.
Can European government in one or another country become truly democratic, to the point of throwing off the whole elitist concept?
If they can, there's another solution for so many who seem to think they HAVE to align with a VB or the continent will fal toislamization.
There are other solutions as well, I am sure.

223 Mr Spiffy  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:56:34am

re: #152 stvip

re: #145 Ben Hur

I understand the sarcasm, but why do you think Islam is worse than Japanese Imperialism? Do you think the former is inherently incorrigible, unlike the latter?

And for those who think peaceful Islam is impossible, that there is simply no way to implement the Koran peacefully, what exactly are you suggesting we do about Muslims and the Koran?

We have a winner!
That my friend is the $64,000 Question; (and one that has leads to much turmoil and strife both internally and domestically)
What to do about 1.5B people longing for the chance to rule over the other 4.5B under the rules set down by Allah?

224 stvip  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:56:46am

re: #213 bulwrk

muslims believe the koran is the absolute word of allah dictated to mohammed and not open to interpretation or revision, so based on that assumptoin I fail to see how an islamic reformation can take place.

The Koran has to be interpreted and implemented - there's the Hadith, and there are the various contemporary fatwas. If there's a will, there's more than enough flexibility right there.

225 lawhawk  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:57:30am

OT:

Something on which I think everyone here would agree. It's time for a peace through superior firepower.

226 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:57:44am

re: #216 Kenneth

The interviewer points out that anti-jihadists like LGF and Hirsi Ali have condemned Vlaams Belang as a racist party. Filip Dewinter responds by saying left-wing groups are always saying this, that we should ignore them and unite. Somehow, I find his answer unconvincing.

Yeah- been seeing that defense a lot lately. And frankly- I found the entire interview to be unconvincing. Whitewashing nazi collaboration? Eww. I don't think this man is electable on this side of the pond.

227 Killgore Trout  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:57:52am

re: #209 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet

MAke sure to listen to the whole thing, I know it takes a while but it's very telling. The closing statement about how he has pressured to not post this interview is very telling.

228 Golem Akbar  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:58:55am

re: #221 jcm

re: #214 mama winger


re: #210 mama winger

re: #207 Golem Akbar

The Koran could just as easily be used to justify democracy.

Really?

Examples, please.


Because that is a ludicrous statement.

No where the Quran give the individual the choice to accept or reject the religion. Core to the Jewish faith and Christian faith, from Genesis 1 is the concept that the individual is free to choose to follow the faith.

That concept of the individual have the the liberty to decide their religious path is the founding block of the western idea of individual liberty and democracy.

All I'm saying is that we need to leave the reforming of Islam up to Islamic leaders. They are out there. They may be silent, today, but they do exist. The place to debate the plusses or minuses of their faith is not here. This is the place to gain allies, whether they be Christians, Jews, Moslems, or atheists. Any one opposing fascism is welcome.

229 Iron Fist  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:58:58am

re: #214 mama winger,

More than that, we are in the middle of a debate as to whether or not to accept Vlaams Belang as a possible ally against the Jihadis, and we say "No!". Quite rightly, we say no.

And then someone raises the point of accepting Mohammedans as allies? I'm sorry, but you cannot accept the tenet that Mohammed was the "perfect person" worthy of "all imitation" and not be a fascist at your core. The Koran is a treatise for a violently expansive, totalitarian ideology just as is Mein Kampf. We rightly reject the followers of the latter, no matter how innocently they protray themselves.

Why, therefore, not the latter?

230 Poitiers-Lepanto  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:00:18am

re: #224 stvip

re: #213 bulwrk

muslims believe the koran is the absolute word of allah dictated to mohammed and not open to interpretation or revision, so based on that assumptoin I fail to see how an islamic reformation can take place.

The Koran has to be interpreted and implemented - there's the Hadith, and there are the various contemporary fatwas. If there's a will, there's more than enough flexibility right there.

Sure, sure.
But this is an antijihadist blog, would you please go and convert to democracy all the muslims on a muslim blog ?
Thank you and best of luck.

231 Ben Hur  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:00:51am
Arafat and the PLO were secular

Careful not to apply our definition of "secular" to different cultures.

Arafat was not secular. He was more pious than most of the 700 club combined.

232 mama winger  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:00:58am

re: #221 jcm

re: #214 mama winger

re: #210 mama winger

re: #207 Golem Akbar

The Koran could just as easily be used to justify democracy.

Really?

Examples, please.

Because that is a ludicrous statement.

No where the Quran give the individual the choice to accept or reject the religion. Core to the Jewish faith and Christian faith, from Genesis 1 is the concept that the individual is free to choose to follow the faith.

That concept of the individual have the the liberty to decide their religious path is the founding block of the western idea of individual liberty and democracy.

Exactly. In the Jewish and Christian tradition , God is a Father. There is a familial relationship. Within a family, there is room for talk, supplication, explanation and growth . I think of the verse "Come now, and let us reason together, says the Lord our God."

In islam, it is completely the opposite. Allah is the master - not because of any good our redeeming features within himself, simply because he rules. It is a master-slave relationship. He is to be obeyed, There is no reason. Just is.

Reason is at the very heart of the Judeo-Christian tradition. Reason has no place in islam. In fact, islam is blatantly anti-reason.

233 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:01:21am
234 Golem Akbar  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:01:22am

re: #230 Poitiers-Lepanto

But this is an antijihadist blog, would you please go and convert to democracy all the muslims on a muslim blog ?
Thank you and best of luck.

Well said.

235 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:02:11am

re: #228 Golem Akbar

Any one opposing fascism is welcome.

I guess that's the line. Or at least it is to me.

236 Peter Verkooijen  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:02:33am
Filip Dewinter: 'I have respect for islam and muslims but in their own cultural environment, in their own countries, they can do whatever they have to do, but not over here.'

That's classic blut und boden fascist doctrine; one land, one culture. No principle rejection of islam as an ideology.

237 1redthread  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:02:36am

re: #228 Golem Akbar

All I'm saying is that we need to leave the reforming of Islam up to Islamic leaders. They are out there. They may be silent, today, but they do exist.

How long do we wait for this "reformation" to happen?

238 Yank in the EU  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:02:38am

re: #188 mahatma coat

it seems possible that once again european nationalism will rear its ugly head.Good .I have no plans to buy a prayer mat any time soon .Nationalism (despite its more ugly expressions )is the only way to defend against the jihad.Its the opposite of the multi-culti pablem we've been fed the past few decades and we'll deal with its downside once its done its job
ps. re:157 american ethnicity simply is anglo saxon .Its what we call integration

The brand of nationalism that includes a racial element is like a cancer -- including for the fighters against the jihad.

239 Ben Hur  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:03:37am

Remember, none of this is new.

240 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:03:42am

re: #227 Killgore Trout

Still listening. I wouldn't be thrilled about my daughter (she is 5 years old, so its a decade off) dating a Muslim or lesbian either, but adding 'Negroes' to that, adding on to the defense of amnesty for Nazis, well, there may be non-racist members of VB, but there is still some rot at the head of the fish.

241 Golem Akbar  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:04:11am

re: #232 mama winger

Reason is at the very heart of the Judeo-Christian tradition. Reason has no place in islam. In fact, islam is blatantly anti-reason.

You could say the same thing about Buddhism, or Hinduism, or scientology. I really don't care. If someone is against Jihad/fascism, then we can work together. The place to debate how great my religion is versus your inferior one (kidding, but trying to make a point) is not here.

242 mahatma coat  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:04:33am

re: #222 mean Gene

excellent point re: stalin.But are you saying Stalin was an honest partner ?After 6 yrs.(who am I kidding ,Khomeini declared war nearly 30 years ago)we still can't even decide who to fight or how to fight them.At this point I'm not to picky about allies

243 stvip  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:05:01am

re: #228 Golem Akbar


All I'm saying is that we need to leave the reforming of Islam up to Islamic leaders. They are out there.

Right, but if they feel threatened by us, they won't rise up with us.
Saying that their religion in fundamentally unacceptable is counterproductive to the extreme. The religion needs reform, not eradication.

244 Golem Akbar  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:05:34am

re: #237 1redthread

re: #228 Golem Akbar


All I'm saying is that we need to leave the reforming of Islam up to Islamic leaders. They are out there. They may be silent, today, but they do exist.

How long do we wait for this "reformation" to happen?

Read Spencer or Daniel Pipes. They talk about it. Both believe that it is happening. Never fast enough, but there are people out there trying to do just that.

245 goodbye_natalie  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:06:12am
That's why I say don't bash the Koran. It's not the real enemy.

Sorry, as a Christian I certainly can not agree with that statement.

If you can show that the Bible, the book Christians believe the inspired Word of the Living God both Old and New, has done more far more harm than good, then I would consider the Bible to be the root of evil.

And if you ask me, Islam with its works being based on the word revealed in the Qu'ran, no matter its interpretation, shows more darkness than light.

Call me shallow or thick-headed, but that is the way I see it.

246 looking closely  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:06:24am

#102 Charles

re: #95 BabbaZee

shit

he didn't ask him about the statue

I think this interview was done before I posted the statue video.

If you read between the lines of what Tom Paine posted, it sounds like he was pressured not to release this. I can see why.


Charles, I don't know if you'd had time to listen to the entire thing, but at about 34 minutes in the interviewer states explicitly that there was internal disagreement about posting the interview with some requests for him not to do so.

He then makes (in my opinion) a very convincing argument as to why he should have posted it, despite it not necessarily being very complementary towards the Vlaams Belang.

IMO, this is much better out than hidden away, and my hat is off to the interviewer for going through with this. More light on the subject can only be good for all involved.

247 mama winger  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:06:35am

re: #233 buzzsawmonkey

Islam is about due for a Reformation of its own.

Islam did undergo a reformation, approximately 120 - odd years ago.

It is called Wahabbiism. When they reformed, they became more radicalized. That is because when a muslim follows more closely to the religious doctrine of his faith, he is on the road to jihad.

Islam is a warrior religion. Period.

248 Cap'n DOC  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:06:57am

re: #193 Golem Akbar

Not from me - the quote, I mean.re: #207 Golem Akbar

No. I will blame the mohammedans. Their book. They own it.

249 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:07:36am

It is a different question, whether, in a pinch, one should accept whether to accept allies with at least a tendency to racism and white supremacism. The Stalin analogy has been brought up. I hope Europe isn't that desperate yet.

But I think any arguments (still listening, BTW) about whether people with Nazi and racist sympathies are still prominent in VB have been settled.

250 mama winger  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:08:35am

re: #247 mama winger

Now - that being said - is there hope for individual muslims. You bet. Otherwise I would not be supporting missionaries within the muslim population of Pakistan.

The hope of reformation is conversion.

251 1redthread  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:08:38am

re: #244 Golem Akbar


Read Spencer or Daniel Pipes. They talk about it. Both believe that it is happening. Never fast enough, but there are people out there trying to do just that.

I read them. I don't see anything happening. There's a Somali mosque in the middle of Toronto preaching hate and nobody does anything about it.

I don't want to wait until it's too late, and my children are forced to pay the jizya.

252 realwest  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:08:38am

re: #181 Sharmuta Hasn't freed who's mindset?
I thought Tom Paine did a suberb job.

253 Golem Akbar  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:09:04am

re: #245 goodbye_natalie

That's why I say don't bash the Koran. It's not the real enemy.

Sorry, as a Christian I certainly can not agree with that statement.

If you can show that the Bible, the book Christians believe the inspired Word of the Living God both Old and New, has done more far more harm than good, then I would consider the Bible to be the root of evil.

And if you ask me, Islam with its works being based on the word revealed in the Qu'ran, no matter its interpretation, shows more darkness than light.

Call me shallow or thick-headed, but that is the way I see it.

I have to say it, but that's the way the left can divide us. I'll debate my religious views with you over a cup of coffee or "adult beverage" anywhere, anytime, but I hope we can work together to oppose the real dark forces of fascism out there. That's the real enemy. Don't lose focus.

254 Killgore Trout  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:09:19am
255 Ringo the Gringo  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:10:13am

DeWinter makes perfect sense for for a minute or so and then he goes completely over the edge.

He's not a Nazi, he's more like a Flemmish Archie Bunker...perhaps a bit worse.

I would not hitch my horse to his wagon.

Great conclusion by Tom Paine.

256 Peter Verkooijen  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:10:18am

Excellent closing statements!

257 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:10:56am

He is trying to weasel out of the daughter coming home with a 'Negro' being raised wrong question, as Mr. Paine has brought it up again.

258 stvip  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:10:58am

re: #237 1redthread

How long do we wait for this "reformation" to happen?

We don't have to wait passively. In fact, we shouldn't.
Stopping Saudia Arabia from opening extremist Madrassas everywhere would be a good start. Preventing Iran from acquiring a nuclear shield so that it can foment Shia secessionism and extremism in Sunni states is vital.

By the way, even Buddhism has been used to justify terrorism. See the Tokyo Subway nerve gas attack.

259 Kenneth  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:11:11am

#125 stvip


If the Koran is more intolerant than the Bible or the Talmud, the difference is quantitative, not qualitative.

The exhortations to violence are quantitatively greater in the Koran than in the Bible. The violence is also qualitatively different. I challenge you to show one verse from the Bible where Jesus calls on his followers to kill anyone. Mohammad calls for violence again & again & he claims he was speaking on behalf of Allah. That's a significant qualitative difference.

If you think you can articulate a reformed modern non-violent & tolerant Islam, go for it. I wihs you success. But you must understand why many people, both Muslims and anti-Jihadists, will be doubtful of your project.

260 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:11:35am

re: #252 realwest

I was just referencing a comment from elsewhere. Please don't make me go looking through all the euro-hate threads to find it. Please!

261 mama winger  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:12:00am

re: #259 Kenneth

I challenge you to show one verse from the Bible where Jesus calls on his followers to kill anyone. Mohammad calls for violence again & again & he claims he was speaking on behalf of Allah. That's a significant qualitative difference.

You bet.

262 Mr Spiffy  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:12:26am

re: #221 jcm

you forgot accept the consequences

263 Killgore Trout  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:12:47am

re: #257 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet

He sees race and culture as inseparable. A black man can't possibly share his culture in his mind.

264 Charles  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:13:11am

re: #254 Killgore Trout

Hot Air sides with the good guys.....
Right-wing European “ally” against jihad really not an ally

Yes, and Allahpundit banned several pro-BNP people as well.

265 Golem Akbar  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:13:18am

re: #251 1redthread

re: #244 Golem Akbar


Read Spencer or Daniel Pipes. They talk about it. Both believe that it is happening. Never fast enough, but there are people out there trying to do just that.

I read them. I don't see anything happening. There's a Somali mosque in the middle of Toronto preaching hate and nobody does anything about it.

I don't want to wait until it's too late, and my children are forced to pay the jizya.

Don't jump into the camp of the anti-jihadi fascists. The VB, the SD, and others are doing just that. There is another alternative. Support for democracy across the globe. Don't condemn Moslems because of their faith (unless you are perfect and can point to yourself as such). There is a growing anti-fascist movement today. LGF is a good example. There is more. Find them.

266 gymnast  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:13:50am

Anyone anticipate the appearance of Abdullah Al Luther? I didn't think so.

Anyone know what Abdullah translates to? Anyone know what the word Islam means? Most around here do and some don't. The ones that don't are obvious in the ignorance of their comments. They really need to come up to speed. No offense meant.

267 Crusader Rabbit  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:13:51am

I've listened to this interview and I don't get it.

I have no opinion on whether DeWinter is a neo-Nazi. If one believes he is, what questions could one ask to discern this and what answers would one expect?

I suggest that nothing about this interview could hope to demonstrate the negative. If you ask a guy if he beats his wife he's probably going to say "no". Does that make him a liar? Only if he does beat his wife, but you haven't established that.

What I do know is that one need not be a Nazi to be accused of being one by the left (or Ron Paul supporters).

268 mahatma coat  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:14:09am

re: #238 Yank in the EU
I respectfully disagree sir,winning this is going to require a level of malevolence we've been raised to abhore.Allied countries were repulsed by the nazi bombing of cities ,but 4 years later their own bombing campaigns won the war.This is going to require a basic belief that we are right and that actions taken or alliances made in the name of victory are self justifying.Theorists will have plenty to criticize about that stance but theorists win no wars

269 Highrise  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:14:51am
Yes, yes, we TRIED reversing the polarity through the deflector array, didn’t work.

/chuckle

Yeah, we saw the attempts.

270 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:15:12am

He is trying to weasel out of the daughter coming home with a 'Negro' being raised wrong question, as Mr. Paine has brought it up again.


Mr. Paine just used word "weasel" to describe DeWinters answers.


Listening to an upper crust Brit saying sh!t is interesting.

271 mahatma coat  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:15:22am

re: #254 Killgore Trout

good guys finish last

272 Charles  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:15:23am

Does anyone know if DeWinter's claim that the Soviets gave amnesty to Nazi collaborators is true? I seriously doubt it, but I haven't been able to find any information on it yet.

273 Golem Akbar  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:16:18am

re: #258 stvip

re: #237 1redthread


How long do we wait for this "reformation" to happen?

We don't have to wait passively. In fact, we shouldn't.
Stopping Saudia Arabia from opening extremist Madrassas everywhere would be a good start. Preventing Iran from acquiring a nuclear shield so that it can foment Shia secessionism and extremism in Sunni states is vital.

By the way, even Buddhism has been used to justify terrorism. See the Tokyo Subway nerve gas attack.

Exactly. There's a lot of work to do, and a lot of educating to do. We need to take positive steps. There is no room for racism in what needs to be done. It'll only defeat us. Charles is right. VB, SD and others have jumped into a very dangerous path.

274 Kenneth  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:17:27am

re: #224 stvip

Hypothetically, perhaps you are right. It's hypothetically possible to reform Islam into a modern, liberal, tolerant & non-violent religion. You go & do that. Please. I'm serious. But have a look over the history of Islam. There have been periods of greater & lesser tolerance in Islam. Everytime the issue came to a conflict between the agents of tolerance & modernity vs the intolerant reactioneries, the intolerant side won the argument, both theologically, and politically. Maybe it will work this time. I hope so. but I don't hold out much hope.

As Bernard Lewis wrote,"There is no moderate Islam, there are only moderate Muslims."

275 mama winger  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:17:34am

re: #273 Golem Akbar

There's a lot of work to do, and a lot of educating to do. We need to take positive steps.

What's your next step?

276 Golem Akbar  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:17:43am

re: #272 Charles

Does anyone know if DeWinter's claim that the Soviets gave amnesty to Nazi collaborators is true? I seriously doubt it, but I haven't been able to find any information on it yet.

I know that in East Germany, the Stasi were made up of a lot of ex-Nazis. Elsewhere, I don't know.

277 realwest  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:17:44am

re: #216 Kenneth As I said above, I never knew LGF was left wing!

I'd also like to take this moment to thank Charles for continuing the research and the push to get facts out in the open and especially that HE has done it without resorting to name-calling and ad hominen attacks. I would not have been able to stand in the center of the storm, having not only my beliefs challenged, but suffering the indignities of some the viscious, personal attacks on me.
Charles you are a FAR better man than am I for that.

278 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:17:44am

re: #272 Charles

Someone made mention of it up thread- they said amnesty was a bullet in the head.

279 Le_Patriot  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:18:21am

re: #125 stvip

re: #103 cookielady

Did you really just say it's not about the content of the koran? Are you serious? How do you misinterpret 'kill all infidels?"

If the Koran is more intolerant than the Bible or the Talmud, the difference is quantitative, not qualitative. Once religious extremism arises, it will always find the justification it wants from their respective holy texts, since every religious corpus has messages and decrees of all kind. To allow and justify the murder of Rabin, the antiquated concepts of "Din Rodef" and "Din Moser" from the Talmud were revived, as always as a nominal replication of a Kabbalistic death-curse ritual, the Pulsa Denura. Others have suggested the Palestinian are "Sons of Amalek" (there is an order in the Bible to "destroy the seed of Amalek", taken to mean total annihilation of the people). I needn't tell you that the history of Christianity is mired in rivers of blood, and that this violence also found justification in the texts.


____________________________
If we're talking about the 2 books (Quran vs Bible/Torah) as being authoritative on doctrine, then one should only compare what the books teach as doctrine applicable to today, and
not use examples of historical events that occured but that are in the book only as a matter of historical record
, (if they are history only, with no doctrinal exhortation that still applies to TODAY).

The Amalakites no longer exist (or at least are not identifiable today).
The Amalekites attacked the Hewbrews first, by the way.

The Bible does not teach Christians to wipe out anybody.
Again, I'm referring to what the book teaches. Any historical events that occured contrary to the book are invalid in my argument, because my point is Quran vs Bible teaching.

The Quran, on the other hand......well, infidels, you know what that teaches.

280 Crusader Rabbit  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:18:36am

re: #247 mama winger

re: #233 buzzsawmonkey


Islam is about due for a Reformation of its own.

Islam did undergo a reformation, approximately 120 - odd years ago.

It is called Wahabbiism. When they reformed, they became more radicalized. That is because when a muslim follows more closely to the religious doctrine of his faith, he is on the road to jihad.

Islam is a warrior religion. Period.

I wouldn't honor it with the moniker "warrior". Warriors are honorable people. Jihadists are vicious murderers.

Otherwise I agree, what we are seeing today is the product of the muslim reformation.

281 jimmah  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:18:56am

re: #215 stvip

Our goal is to separate Islam from Islamofascism, and eradicate Islamofascism - and any other form of fascism that becomes a threat. Not eliminate Islam and the Koran.


Our goal is to separate Islam from Islamofascism, and eradicate Islamofascism - and any other form of fascism that becomes a threat. Not eliminate Islam and the Koran.

You can't be intellectually honest and separate Islam from Islamofascism. That's why that has to be the job of muslims, not us. My view is that ist is our job is to prick the balloon of Islams collective self regard. Muslims need to know that there are a lot on intelligent and fair minded people who find their religious scriptures to be absolutely contemptible. (Christians and members of other faiths already know and understand this regarding their own scriptures.)They need to realise that people who are not members of their flock are not required to observe any of their Islamic taboos. And they need to get used to the view that for a religion to seek power in this world and furthermore to strive for world conquest is something they should be ashamed of. The intellectual acrobatics involved in trying to extract an interpretation of the Koran that is compatible with the modern world and modern values is their problem, not ours. The more manage that(thinking of people like Irshad Manji at this point) the better of course, but I'd much prefer that as many as possible simply leave this religion behind.

282 mama winger  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:19:32am

re: #279 Le_Patriot

The Bible does not teach Christians to wipe out anybody.
Again, I'm referring to what the book teaches. Any historical events that occured contrary to the book are invalid in my argument, because my point is Quran vs Bible teaching.

Exactly right.

283 Spenser (with an S)  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:19:34am

re: #258 stvip

It was not Buddhism, it was a cult called Aum Shinrikyo.

284 stvip  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:19:42am

re: #233 buzzsawmonkey

I find myself in the uncomfortable position of having to agree with stvip

Well, I'm not ashamed to say I've agreed with many of your posts. Excluding this topic, what is it that you find so offensive about what I have to say?

285 Golem Akbar  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:19:43am

re: #275 mama winger

re: #273 Golem Akbar


There's a lot of work to do, and a lot of educating to do. We need to take positive steps.

What's your next step?

I'm trying to convince family and friends. I have two daughters, both very liberal. It's a hard job since both are the products of liberal colleges. But my family is the most important thing to me, so my work is cut out for me.

286 1redthread  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:20:12am

re: #265 Golem Akbar


Don't jump into the camp of the anti-jihadi fascists. The VB, the SD, and others are doing just that. There is another alternative. Support for democracy across the globe. Don't condemn Moslems because of their faith (unless you are perfect and can point to yourself as such). There is a growing anti-fascist movement today. LGF is a good example. There is more. Find them.

I understand what you're saying, and I don't agree with those who you mention.

I don't condemn Muslims for their faith, but I do condemn them for staying silent and doing nothing about the Islamofacists in their midst.

In my opinion, even if Islam can be reformed, it will take too long to help.

287 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:20:33am
288 yavanna  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:20:35am

re: #18 ibrodsky

Thanks Charles for keeping to a steady course...

The whole point of fighting Islamization is to defend Western enlightenment--not throw it overboard.


Zactly. I very much admire Charles for holding steady throughout all this.

It is somewhat like the lefties convergence here with the jihadists - the neo-(shhh) nazis of Europe seem to be trying to converge with the anti-jihad movement.

289 calcajun  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:21:19am

re: #268 mahatma coat

I agree with your sentiment. This is a lesson seen in the bloody pages of history.

When I see the rise of what can be called truly "fascist" groups, I recall that Western Premiers like Stanley Baldwin and Dadiler saw the rise of the German National Socialists as a good thing - the Nazis were meant to be a bulwark against the Soviets. They never saw the Nazis as the bad guys until too late.

On the other hand, even Churchill was not immune to the sentiment of the "enemy of my enemy" when he remarked:

If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favourable reference to the devil in the House of Commons.
290 goodbye_natalie  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:21:45am

re: #253 Golem Akbar

I have to say it, but that's the way the left can divide us. I'll debate my religious views with you over a cup of coffee or "adult beverage" anywhere, anytime, but I hope we can work together to oppose the real dark forces of fascism out there. That's the real enemy. Don't lose focus.

Nah, the left can't divide me at all. I separate my most practical beliefs, basic tenets will you, from government. If you believe Hillary Clinton to be inadequate, that the Dimocrats to be wrong about all but the most basic of issues, and America an idea worth defending and the greatest country on earth warts and all, then you and I are on the same side of anything relevant to LGF. Nothing will change that.

291 looking closely  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:22:31am

re: #272 Charles

Does anyone know if DeWinter's claim that the Soviets gave amnesty to Nazi collaborators is true? I seriously doubt it, but I haven't been able to find any information on it yet.

He claimed it was in the 60s and I also strongly doubt it.

I think by that point any remaining Nazi collaborators that weren't outright killed right after the war were sent to Gulags.

I understand the need to forgive (not to forget), but the fact that amnesty for Nazi collaborators is even on the platform on any political platform today is despicable.

292 mama winger  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:22:47am

re: #285 Golem Akbar

I'm trying to convince family and friends. I have two daughters, both very liberal. It's a hard job since both are the products of liberal colleges. But my family is the most important thing to me, so my work is cut out for me.

I agree, we need to operate within our spheres of influence at this point. It seems like an uphill battle at times, eh? But best to work at level, and hope the next level does not come.

{Golem}

:)

293 Golem Akbar  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:22:53am

re: #286 1redthread

I don't condemn Muslims for their faith, but I do condemn them for staying silent and doing nothing about the Islamofacists in their midst.

I agree 100%. Remember, there were good Christians in Germany (and France, Belgium, etc) who kept silent. We need to demonstrate that there is an alternative.

294 Yank in the EU  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:23:51am

re: #268 mahatma coat

That's the whole thing, my friend, I strongly disagree. Even if you can find a way to rationalize away in your head the evil of forming an allegiance with neo-Nazis, racists, and white supremacists, it's not only the morality of it or the theory that is problematic. It is also unwise in practice, because you will loose a great many people in the center for whom decency is still important for what they do with their lives and who they truly are at the core. The anti-Islamization movement will loose legitimacy in many more minds than would have been gained in the few fringe far-right, white power parties.

295 Charles  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:23:57am

I'm about to post the link to David Duke's site, on which he posted about an appearance on the radio show "The Political Cesspool," with Filip Dewinter and Frank Vanhecke of Vlaams Belang, in February of this year.

The web site of "The Political Cesspool" by the way, is a real cesspool. With a link to the Holocaust-denying Institute for Historical Review.

296 Golem Akbar  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:24:11am

re: #290 goodbye_natalie

re: #253 Golem Akbar


I have to say it, but that's the way the left can divide us. I'll debate my religious views with you over a cup of coffee or "adult beverage" anywhere, anytime, but I hope we can work together to oppose the real dark forces of fascism out there. That's the real enemy. Don't lose focus.

Nah, the left can't divide me at all. I separate my most practical beliefs, basic tenets will you, from government. If you believe Hillary Clinton to be inadequate, that the Dimocrats to be wrong about all but the most basic of issues, and America an idea worth defending and the greatest country on earth warts and all, then you and I are on the same side of anything relevant to LGF. Nothing will change that.

Cheers, then.

297 MattMacD  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:25:08am

re: #85 stvip

re: #64 Golem Akbar

if the VB/SD folks agree to disavow racism, Nazism, violence, mass deportations, etc.

Arafat disavowed all terrorism, repeatedly. In fact, all too often. We have to look deeper.

Anti-Islamofascism is not anti-Muslim or anti anything but anti-fascist.

Agreed. I wish everyone here thought likewise - I'm seeing far too many posts attacking Islam and Muslims in general, or denigrating the Koran (as with all religious texts, it's not the content, it's the interpretation and implementation). We're doing a great disservice to ourselves, pushing away Muslims who could've been pro-West, and supplying groups like CAIR with ammunition.

I agree mostly, but I don't think it's quite that simple. I will attack Islam in general, because Islam in general is violent, and inhuman. Muslims, on the other hand, are human beings. They are fully capable of thinking for themselves - if they so choose. That's why I'm not for mass deportation or anything like that (and I had this view of the whole thing before I came to LGF).

298 Charles  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:25:10am

The archive of the DeWinter appearance on "The Political Cesspool" has apparently been removed.

299 bulwrk  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:25:34am

re: #272 Charles


It's completely false, even Russian soldiers who were taken prisoners of war and spent years in nazi concentration camps were deemed unreliable and sent off to Siberia after the war.

300 mama winger  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:26:40am

re: #287 buzzsawmonkey

but as long as their adherents conform to the dictates of the larger society, what they believe is their own affair.

Yes. And therein lies the rub. What they believe, as evidenced in their statements and their behavior, is that all the world should be sumissive to allah, either by being muslim, converting to islam, or making payments with their money or their lives.

For islam to reform it would have to deny the very tenets of its faith. For Christianity to reform, it merely needed to go back to the tenets of its faith.

301 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:26:42am

re: #298 Charles

Gee- will wonders never cease?

302 gymnast  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:27:14am

re: #272 Charles

Does anyone know if DeWinter's claim that the Soviets gave amnesty to Nazi collaborators is true? I seriously doubt it, but I haven't been able to find any information on it yet.

By 1960 they were dead, killed by the NKVD and KGB as well as the Gulags. What good is a posthumous pardon unless you can be resurrected?
To the best of my knowledge, all the persons killed by the Soviets stayed dead.

303 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:27:14am

re: #291 looking closely

How many 85 year old Belgians are being prosecuted for collaboration, anyway.

304 Roger  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:27:17am

If you read Given Up for Dead: American Gi's in the Nazi Concentration Camp at Berga it will make your blood boil concerning the amnesty that was granted right next to Bad Orb and Berga I & II to people who operated these camps. If the word operated can be applied at all.

305 jimmah  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:27:30am

re: #256 Peter Verkooijen

Excellent closing statements!

Yeah...I agree. Much impressed by this Tom Paine.

306 PETN Sandwich  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:27:31am

re: #272 Charles

Does anyone know if DeWinter's claim that the Soviets gave amnesty to Nazi collaborators is true? I seriously doubt it, but I haven't been able to find any information on it yet.

Collaborators? Don't know of any of that.

Full-blown card-carrying Nazi Germans? Yes - there was a mad dash between the allies as they swept across Germany to gather as many german brains as they could.

307 Killgore Trout  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:27:33am

re: #272 Charles

The only thing I can think of is possibly in Eastern Europe and the Ukraine they may have pardoned people as political favours to keep the peace, it seems unlikely to me but it might have happened. I can't find any links about it yet.

308 Golem Akbar  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:27:41am

re: #298 Charles

The archive of the DeWinter appearance on "The Political Cesspool" has apparently been removed.

He's trying to cover up. I'd say that pretty much closes the door on VB.

309 Crusader Rabbit  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:28:26am

re: #287 buzzsawmonkey


I would argue that--just as the Reformation resulted in several centuries of war in Europe


I'm curious about this interpretation of history. Several centuries?

The reformation began either in the 15th or the 16th century depending on what event you choose as its beginning. I'm not convinced that Europe was at peace pre-Reformation and I'm very dubious about the idea that European conflicts in the 17th or 18th centuries were attributable to the Reformation.

310 Spenser (with an S)  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:28:53am

re: #287 buzzsawmonkey

But, if Reformation is a process of getting back to basics and doing things the way they should be done, what if this is their Reformation?

311 Killgore Trout  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:29:29am

re: #308 Golem Akbar

Deleting articles, trying to suppress interviews, etc... These folks have something to hide.

312 Ma Sands  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:30:30am

re: #203 Iron Fist

And that needs to be said over and over!

313 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:30:43am
314 Peter Verkooijen  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:30:43am

re: #291 looking closely

It's plausible that happened under Khrushchev. It would fit the internal political dynamics at that time. But I don't know for sure. It's not very relevant. Just the fact that Vlaams Blok/Belang would have an item about nazi amnesty in its program is revealing.

315 mama winger  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:30:57am

Reformation Day is tomorrow by the way.


On this Oct 31 in 1517, Martin Luther posted a proposal at the doors of a church in Wittenberg, Germany to debate the doctrine and practice of indulgences. This proposal is popularly known as the 95 Theses, which he nailed to the Castle Church doors. This was not an act of defiance or provocation as is sometimes thought. Since the Castle Church faced Wittenberg's main thoroughfare, the church door functioned as a public bulletin board and was therefore the logical place for posting important notices. Also, the theses were written in Latin, the language of the church, and not in the vernacular. Nonetheless, the event created a controversy between Luther and those allied with the Pope over a variety of doctrines and practices. When Luther and his supporters were excommunicated in 1520, the Reformation was born.
316 Orde  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:31:07am

re: #266 gymnast

Anyone anticipate the appearance of Abdullah Al Luther? I didn't think so.

Luther was a viscious antisemite, whose writings ("On the Jews and Their Lies") are still being spread by neo-nazis.

For those time-pressed, Tom Paine's brilliantly well-expressed summary starts at around 33:20 or so; Paine says DeWinter's calling his statement supporting a "White Europe" just "a metaphor" is like the ridiculous insistence of the jihadists that jihad is merely an internal struggle.

I wished I'd counted the number of times DeWinter dismissed his critics by branding them as left-wing. DeWinter was fairly good at diverting the interview off of his racist remarks and back to Islamization, the common enemy, and for a while there I thought Paine was letting him get away with stuff, but the closing tied it all together.

317 Kenneth  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:31:51am

re: #272 Charles

That is bullshit covered by a veneer of fact. He was referring to the amnesty granted to Soviet soldiers who were captured as POW's by the Germans. Stalin regarded these unfortunated soldiers as traitors. The Nazis treated them like animals in the POW camps, and when they were "freed" at the end of the war, Stalin treated them like criminals. They were sent off to labour camps in Siberia where they were worked to death. The few who survived were released 10 or more years later. They still had criminal records over their heads and were discriminated against. Post-Soviet Russia removed these criminal charges against these victimized people.

However, as for the thousands of Ukrainians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Russians, Volga Germans, Poles & etc who did actively collaborate with the Germans, if any of them survived, they most certainly did not receive any pardons.

Just more bullshit from Dewinter.

318 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:32:02am

BTW, I think it is now hard to argue with whether at least top members of the VB are racists.

So, the next question, how bad does it get before you consider getting into the foxhole with them?


My own opinion, if it is truly desperate, I doubt these people would ever establish death camps again like Hitler did, so, in one sense, they are the lesser of two evils, but they are still seriously flawed. And the 'white power' baggage they carry probably loses more potential allies to the cause then the actual number of VB party members.

319 Land Shark  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:32:26am

After hearing the interview with DeWinter, I can't help but feel Charles has been vindicated, or at the very least it has been demonstrated that his doubts are reasonable. As a student of WW2, and knowing in detail how truly evil the Nazis were, I have a hard time setting aside many of DeWinter's comments for the sake of Counterjihad Unity. And hearing that Mr. Paine was pressured into not putting up the interview is telling.

Europe is in for some very interesting times.

Land Shark

320 goodbye_natalie  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:33:06am

re: #296 Golem Akbar

Cheers. I in no way meant to offend. It's just that since the subject was mentioned, I couldn't let it go unchallenged or at least provide my two cents.

Don't think just because we disagree about faith, that we can't come to a meeting of the minds about virtually all that is political and the path we should take. And that's a first step toward reconciliation between Jew and Christian which long overdue - our paths are forever linked whether we like it or not.

And that's the problem. With most Muslims, my path diverges very quickly from their path.

321 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:33:31am

re: #311 Killgore Trout

re: #308 Golem Akbar

Deleting articles, trying to suppress interviews, etc... These folks have something to hide.

I wonder what the reaction would be of other blogs if this was a left-wing party.....or a muslim group........ They might have condemned these people by now.

322 Killgore Trout  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:34:26am

re: #298 Charles

Did you get a screenshot?

323 Golem Akbar  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:34:51am

re: #316 Orde

Luther was a viscious antisemite, whose writings ("On the Jews and Their Lies") are still being spread by neo-nazis.

And yet, today, American protestants are the most pro-Israel non-Jewish group in the US. If we provide an alternative to jihad/fascism, Moslems will pay attention. That's the goal, not mass deportations.

324 goodbye_natalie  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:35:04am

re: #300 mama winger

For islam to reform it would have to deny the very tenets of its faith. For Christianity to reform, it merely needed to go back to the tenets of its faith.

Sometimes for somebody that claims simplicity, you show sheer genius.

325 mama winger  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:35:40am

re: #324 goodbye_natalie

It's the meds


: 0

326 mahatma coat  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:35:47am

re: #294 Yank in the EU
this is going to require getting our hands ,if not our consciounses,dirty ..At the end of the day that " great mass of people you refer to as being in the center will mean as much as the silent"moderate "muslims.At the end of the day that center will be largely unoccupied.We will be forced to take sides ,and it will in many cases be an uncomfortable decision

327 Peter Verkooijen  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:36:57am

Secularization of the islamic world looks like a more attainable goal than a reformation. Flood them with hip hop, action movies, jeans and internet porn.

328 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:37:03am

I think LGF is on the correct side of this particular issue. I hope some kind of understanding can eventually be reached.

I do hope that other people, who mean well, and are generally on the right side of things, even if they or many of the people who post at their blogs, weren't, will eventually be seen as allies again.


Or, I kind of hope that despite the disagreement and sharp exchanges, Atlas and Gates of Vienna will wind up back on the blog roll when this blows over.

329 Killgore Trout  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:37:18am

re: #318 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet

So, the next question, how bad does it get before you consider getting into the foxhole with them?

I don't think we're even close yet.

330 mama winger  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:37:18am

Anyway - reformation is near impossible within a religion where the words of allah can neither be questioned nor interpreted.

331 JimmyTheClaw  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:38:09am

re: #159 Golem Akbar

re: #131 JimmyTheClaw

have you ever read the texts and philosophy that is are at the core of islam?

It ought to be clear to everyone that these books, the Torah, the Christian Bible, the Koran, and others, are very open to intrepretation. That interpretation comes from human leaders. When the leaders interpret in an enlightened way, we have great and tolerant societies. We have art, creativity, education, opportunities to create wealth, and more. When the leaders interpret their holy books in a way that is restrictive, authoritarian, and harsh, we have the middle ages, darkness, fascism, inquisitions, pogroms, and worse. The best of religion produced the renaissance. The worst...well, we know what that does.

So don't bash Islam just because you think Islamofascism is Islam. It isn't.

islamofascism mirrors orthodox islam bin laden and his ilk are merely imitating mohammad during the latter part of his life (medina period) who by the way was the founder and who the entire religion rests on. those moderates you talk about are called apostates and hypocrites in the koran and sunna i fear over the next several years its only going to get worse.

332 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:38:59am

re: #316 Orde

DeWinter was fairly good at diverting the interview off of his racist remarks and back to Islamization, the common enemy, and for a while there I thought Paine was letting him get away with stuff, but the closing tied it all together.

I agree. The whole interview he did nothing but cloud the waters, misdirect, and even when he was speaking about the islamification of europe I got the creeps.

333 realwest[deleted]  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:39:02am
334 Spenser (with an S)  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:39:05am

re: #324 goodbye_natalie

Yeah, she said what I was trying to say, just much better.

335 Beagle  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:39:07am

Scroll down to Prosecution of Perpetrators/Nazi War Criminals.

There's a lack of action, not clemency.

Sounds like a pension controversy in fact.
Cash for Belgians who aided the Nazis
By Toby Helm in Brussels

TENSIONS between Flemish and French-speaking communities in Belgium flared yesterday after the Flemish region agreed that former Nazi collaborators from the Second World War should be given special "state aid" payments.

The ruling by the region's parliament provoked outrage among veteran resistance fighters in French-speaking Wallonia. The vote was supported by 60 MPs from the ruling Christian-Social CVP party, the Right-wing nationalist Volksunie party and the far-Right Vlaams Blok.

The decision amounts to a "final pardon" to former collaborators whose full civil rights have already been restored. Many were deprived of the right to vote following the war, but have since been pardoned. A few thousand individuals on low incomes, who had a record of collaborating with the Nazis, are expected to benefit from the payments of around £330 a year.

The decision puts former collaborators on the same legal footing as "victims of the war", the term given to those who fought against and suffered at the hands of Nazi invaders. Robert Collignon, head of the Wallonia region, said it was "despicable that war victims be considered as equal to those with no sense of civic responsibility".
.....

336 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:39:11am

re: #323 Golem Akbar

re: #316 Orde

Luther was a viscious antisemite, whose writings ("On the Jews and Their Lies") are still being spread by neo-nazis.

And yet, today, American protestants are the most pro-Israel non-Jewish group in the US. If we provide an alternative to jihad/fascism, Moslems will pay attention. That's the goal, not mass deportations.


Partially correct. Evangelical Protestants support Israel.

The mainstream Protestant churches, like the ECUSA and Prebyterians have a decidely mixed record recently.

BTW, religious reasons are fine, I suppose, but I tend to sympathize with any Western democracy threatened by barbarians on all sides. Especially if the barbarians hate us and want us dead as well.

337 mama winger  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:39:36am
the Koran, and others, are very open to intrepretation. That interpretation comes from human leaders. When the leaders interpret in an enlightened way, we have great and tolerant societies

One of the tenets of islam is that it cannot be open to interpretation.

338 justnobody  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:39:44am

re: #272 Charles

What I have said about the Soviet amnesty to Nazi collaborators is apparently incorrect. There was an amnesty in 1955 (link in Russian). The amnesty applied among others to those who served with the occupation police, the Wehrmacht and the SS. That amnesty was part of a larger wave of amnesties that followed Stalin's death.

339 goodbye_natalie  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:39:55am

re: #325 mama winger

r

e: #324 goodbye_natalie

It's the meds


: 0

Well, tell me what you're taking. I need some of that medicine, simple and elegant.

340 Kenneth  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:40:16am

re: #327 Peter Verkooijen

They already are flooded with all those Western vices. And alcohol, gambling & prostitution. It hasn't dampened the Islamists, only given them more fuel. The European immigrant Muslims are often more radicalized than the people back home.

341 JimmyTheClaw  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:40:26am

re: #165 TheUnrepentantGeek

re: #129 Ben Hur

Lots of religions have formed different denominations over power struggles. The doctrines aren't even all that different, often enough.

Of course, the core text could be the same, but you can also add texts on and interpret the original text through other texts. Point is there's lots of ways to filter a text. Granted every filter your average Muslim fundamentalist has applied seems to be a variation on how, precisely, to kill the Joooooo.

So. Distinction without a difference from our perspective. They seem quite willing to kill each other over such distinctions. Far be it from me to contradict the guy with the AK.

on conquering the earth and wiping out all infidels is tought in all 4 orthodox schools of thought in islam.

342 Lobosan5  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:40:31am

re: #152 stvip

Muslims are suggesting it themselves:
& don't dismiss this out of hand....it is worth watching.

Part1:


Part2:
Part3:

343 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:40:46am
344 gymnast  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:41:06am

re: #316 Orde

Abdullah Wahab was the Islamic Martin Luther (as someone above alluded to) and Wahabism, courtesy of the pact with the devil made by the house of Saud about 200 years ago is the result. Abdul Aziz Al Saud"s capture of Mecca in about 1922 represents the Saudi's "Great Historic Gamble" and so far it has paid well for them.

But history has not stopped with today.

345 mama winger  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:41:16am

re: #339 goodbye_natalie

LOL!

Oh you don't wanna know ! :)

346 Kenneth  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:41:32am

re: #330 mama winger

And that would have to be the first thing that needs reforming: the divine literalism. If they can't get past that, then it can't go any further.

347 Orde  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:42:25am

re: #315 mama winger

Reformation Day is tomorrow by the way.

On this Oct 31 in 1517, Martin Luther posted a proposal at the doors of a church in Wittenberg, Germany to debate the doctrine and practice of indulgences. This proposal is popularly known as the 95 Theses, which he nailed to the Castle Church doors. This was not an act of defiance or provocation as is sometimes thought. Since the Castle Church faced Wittenberg's main thoroughfare, the church door functioned as a public bulletin board and was therefore the logical place for posting important notices. Also, the theses were written in Latin, the language of the church, and not in the vernacular. Nonetheless, the event created a controversy between Luther and those allied with the Pope over a variety of doctrines and practices. When Luther and his supporters were excommunicated in 1520, the Reformation was born.

Sorry, 8 years ago, with the stroke of a pen on the very anniversary of Reformation Day, the Lutheran Church and the Roman Catholic Church quietly reversed the whole ugly split--just another step towards ecumenism.

I agree that the Quran is central to the problem (and particularly because it points to the Hadith and Sira), and the analogy of an Islamic Reformation to a Christian Reformation break down precisely because the text itself, not just practitioners exhort jihad until the Last Day.

348 Golem Akbar  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:42:49am

re: #336 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet

BTW, religious reasons are fine, I suppose, but I tend to sympathize with any Western democracy threatened by barbarians on all sides. Especially if the barbarians hate us and want us dead as well.

Well said, in a nutshell.

349 mama winger  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:43:08am

re: #315 mama winger

re: #343 buzzsawmonkey

October 31, 1517. Tomorrow is Reformation Day.

350 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:43:57am
351 Kenneth  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:44:09am

re: #349 mama winger

I thought it was Halloween? Can I still wear my bomb head Mo costume?

352 Charles  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:44:50am

There is still a link to the DeWinter interview at the Political Cesspool web site, but it doesn't work.

I'm reluctant to put the link here, because I don't want them to see the referrals from LGF and remove it. But if anyone wants to see if they can get the interview to load, search Google for "Political Cesspool." When you go to their site, notice the big button at the bottom of the page for the Institute of Historical Review.

Then go to the archives link at upper left on their page, scroll down and click 'Show all archives'. If you search that page for DeWinter, you'll find the link.

353 looking closely  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:44:54am

re: #295 Charles

I'm about to post the link to David Duke's site, on which he posted about an appearance on the radio show "The Political Cesspool," with Filip Dewinter and Frank Vanhecke of Vlaams Belang, in February of this year.

The web site of "The Political Cesspool" by the way, is a real cesspool. With a link to the Holocaust-denying Institute for Historical Review.


You're right, this smells pretty fishy, but being Devil's advocate, just because Duke once shared a stage with them doesn't necessarily mean he and they see eye-to-eye on everything.

What matters isn't so much that they all appeared on the same program once, but rather what they discussed and what positions they took.

For example, despite Duke's disgusting racism, I'm sure there are political issues many lizards could find common ground with him about (eg the need for strong borders).

354 JimmyTheClaw  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:45:00am

re: #176 Deafdog

re: #159 Golem Akbar

The folks who take quotes out of the Koran remind me of Media Matters who take Rush out of context. The Koran is just a book.

Islam is what Islam does.

wrong muslim belief is that unlike the bible or torah (inspired by god) they believe that every word of the koran was written by the very finger of god and it would be blasphemy to change even a letter. which is why translated korans are considered not authentic

355 Yank in the EU  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:45:11am

re: #326 mahatma coat

Well, we certainly were willing to ally with Stalin to defeat the Nazis, but remember that was in the midst of wartime. Now we are at the stage of building a movement and trying to change people's minds; we want no part of Stalins or white supramacist ideologies that will hurt this movement in its infancy. The BNP and the VB have certainly scored some points with people by urging "we are the only alternative" (actually one of the the VB's slogans), but we have to be smart and realize that these small fringe groups are absolutely not the answer. As I see it, we'd have to be knuckleheads to think it is a smart idea at this point to form an alliance with the BNP, Le Pen, the VB and the SD. We need a much stronger and more legitimate answer than just turning to the white power folks.

356 jimmah  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:45:20am

I don't see the Reformation as much of a modernising force, it seems really just to be a schism, and one that actually resulted in a lot of violence, religious intolerance and fundamentalism. Not sure that's quite what the doctor ordered for Islam. I think the spread of Enlightenment values was what prompted the Christian world to modernise.

357 mama winger  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:45:40am

re: #347 Orde

Sorry, 8 years ago, with the stroke of a pen on the very anniversary of Reformation Day, the Lutheran Church and the Roman Catholic Church quietly reversed the whole ugly split--just another step towards ecumenism.

There is no one 'Lutheran Church'. The Lutheran World Federation does not have authority over all the Lutheran sects. That they signed this is their own business.

358 lostlakehiker  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:47:10am

re: #152 stvip

And for those who think peaceful Islam is impossible, that there is simply no way to implement the Koran peacefully, what exactly are you suggesting we do about Muslims and the Koran?

Stand firm. Ride it out.

There is doctrinal cover for Muslims of good will, if we stand firm. According to the Koran, truce is permissible if the foe stands like an iron wall.

And there is a time limit on this jihad. We have already, as a world, hit peak oil. We may adapt and cope, turning to solar, wind, nuclear, etc. They may adapt and cope, likewise. But we'll all have work to do.

One of the sources of the trouble is that there are so many young men in the camp of Dar al Islam who lack for work. A young man needs to be doing something. If the money comes from oil, then he maybe isn't needed as a worker. What, then, to do? Some choose marriage and family. This is good, but it begs the question, for what will his many sons do? Some choose dissipation and luxury. This is bad: it squanders the oil wealth, and it breeds hatred for the west. Our casinos, bars, and other seamy entertainments smoothly separate such self-wasters from their money.

And some choose war. This is bad. It, too, is self-wasting, and it drags down the society. Inevitably, the war includes civil strife, as the warrior finds that the nearest target for his fury is his uncooperative neighbor.

As the new economic reality takes hold, idle marriage, idle wasting, and war as something-to-do, will no longer be options. The struggle for existence will not be limited to cashing oil royalties. The men will be needed for work. The attractions of war will pale as the truth of war looms: the four horsemen do not give free rides.

359 Mr Spiffy  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:47:13am

re: #285 Golem Akbar

Good luck with that.
I'm trying with my daughter and my wife


(Loosing on all fronts but surrender is not an option)

360 mama winger  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:47:22am

re: #351 Kenneth

re: #349 mama winger

I thought it was Halloween? Can I still wear my bomb head Mo costume?

Yep. Tomorrow is both Halloween and Reformation Day.

So I can dress up as a former nun :)

361 Kenneth  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:47:54am

re: #350 buzzsawmonkey

There have been several attempts to reform Islam before, and periods of relative tolerance. But these movements were short lived and the reactionary elements always won out. There have also been several extremist movements which gained influence for a while and then were defeated or faded away. The "average" Islam has been conservative, intolerant, but not always expansively violent.

362 Charles  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:48:07am

re: #353 looking closely

re: #295 Charles

I'm about to post the link to David Duke's site, on which he posted about an appearance on the radio show "The Political Cesspool," with Filip Dewinter and Frank Vanhecke of Vlaams Belang, in February of this year.

The web site of "The Political Cesspool" by the way, is a real cesspool. With a link to the Holocaust-denying Institute for Historical Review.


You're right, this smells pretty fishy, but being Devil's advocate, just because Duke once shared a stage with them doesn't necessarily mean he and they see eye-to-eye on everything.

What matters isn't so much that they all appeared on the same program once, but rather what they discussed and what positions they took.

For example, despite Duke's disgusting racism, I'm sure there are political issues many lizards could find common ground with him about (eg the need for strong borders).

It's more than that. The radio show they appeared on has a link to the Institute for Historical Review, an infamous Holocaust denial organization.

And David Duke is well-known in Europe. No one would appear on a radio show with him -- especially a show like this -- without knowing what he stood for.

363 Charles  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:48:55am

At a certain point, you have to stop believing all of this is just coincidence.

364 Poitiers-Lepanto  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:49:37am

re: #347 Orde

Thank you very much for publishing that link. It's a very important document that unluckily is not well known.

365 mean Gene  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:49:44am

Charles, I found this:
[Link: home.hetnet.nl...]

"During the two years after Stalin's death (3-5-53) amnesty was granted to most prisoners who were locked up with the charge of collaboration with the enemy.
Among them were people whom were no Soviet citizens, but whom were taken prisoner by the Red Army or had been handed over to them by the Allied Powers."

So, it looks as though an amnesty was granted to Nazi collaborators by the USSR under new leader Nikita Khrushchev.

366 Roger  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:50:06am

A friend of mine whose Father was in Auschwitz as a Polish prisoner says that right during the time the Soviets were approaching, the Jewish prisoners were helping Soviet prisoners blend in with them pretending to be Jews to protect them from the arriving Soviets.

367 gymnast  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:50:08am

re: #353 looking closely

Peddle your horse shit somewhere else shitbird.

368 Ma Sands  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:50:44am
...best to work at level, and hope the next level does not come.

I like that. That helps. Thank you.

369 Killgore Trout  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:50:53am

If you add david duke to the google search and go to Duke's site the second link still works.

I don't think these links are disappearing because of LGF traffic. I think requests from Vlaams supporters who read LGF are tipping them off.

370 AirForceWife  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:51:05am

#132 goodbye_natalie 10/30/07 9:19:14 am reply quote report 0

Okay, I'll be the first to admit (that I've witnessed). Am I the only one that knows so little about Vlaams Belang that I can't even form an objective opinion?

I had never even heard of them until yesterday. I think there is a lot of damning evidence against this group but I also don't use as criteria for what makes one a nazi or nazi-sympathizer, one who is against their children marrying outside of their race.

This is because that while I believe and have taught my children that I would have no problem at all with them marrying outside of their race, it is a fact that many of those in our grandparents generation right here in America were against inter-racial marriages for their children. Does that make them all Nazis? I think it made them ignorant on this issue, but not Nazis. My own grandparents were up in arms when their children started marring non-whites but as soon as their grandchildren were born, they loved them and you wouldn't believe it today to know how they initially reacted all those years ago. One brother and I are the only two that have two white parents and there has never been any preferential treatment towards us. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I do think it is racist to be against your children marrying outside of your race. I just don't think it rises to the level of being a Nazi or Neo-Nazi. Nazis were about killing people and Neo-Nazis are about killing people. I've heard black and Hispanic people say that they do not want their kids marrying outside of their race. Does that make them all as bad as Nazis too? I'm not asking if it makes them racists because I think it does. I'm asking if it makes them as evil as the Nazis were or as evil as the Neo-nazis are.

371 Charles  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:51:20am

I guarantee, beyond any doubt, that if I ever appeared on a show like The Political Cesspool, opposite David Duke, absolutely no one would be cutting me any slack for it.

372 realwest  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:52:13am

re: #371 Charles I frankly woulnd't believe it was you Charles!

373 mama winger  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:52:27am

re: #371 Charles

I guarantee, beyond any doubt, that if I ever appeared on a show like The Political Cesspool, opposite David Duke, absolutely no one would be cutting me any slack for it.

Bingo.

374 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:52:37am

re: #341 JimmyTheClaw

re: #165 TheUnrepentantGeek


re: #129 Ben Hur

Lots of religions have formed different denominations over power struggles. The doctrines aren't even all that different, often enough.

Of course, the core text could be the same, but you can also add texts on and interpret the original text through other texts. Point is there's lots of ways to filter a text. Granted every filter your average Muslim fundamentalist has applied seems to be a variation on how, precisely, to kill the Joooooo.

So. Distinction without a difference from our perspective. They seem quite willing to kill each other over such distinctions. Far be it from me to contradict the guy with the AK.


on conquering the earth and wiping out all infidels is tought in all 4 orthodox schools of thought in islam.

In a sense, Bah'ai is a school of Islam, although they have been thoroughly rejected by mainstream Islam. Ahmaddiya Islam is similar, in having a Mahdi/Messiah come after Mohammad, who rejected violent jihad.


But you really have to repudiate large portions of the Ahadith and the Quran to get a tolerant, non-violent Islam.

375 mahatma coat  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:52:41am

re: #367 gymnast
would have been better if you'd rebutted his "horse shit"

376 BenZacharia  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:53:00am

re: #310 Spenser (with an S)

But, if Reformation is a process of getting back to basics and doing things the way they should be done, what if this is their Reformation?

DING! DING! DING! We gotts us a weener! I said the most recent 'reformation' started in 1928.

377 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:53:06am

re: #369 Killgore Trout

vlaams supporters are reading LGF? Someone should post that middle finger thing.

378 Charles  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:53:49am

gymnast: let's stand down on the friendly fire, please. 'looking closely' is not an enemy.

379 mama winger  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:54:03am

re: #364 Poitiers-Lepanto

The only Lutheran church in America that belongs to that group is the leftist ELCA.

380 realwest  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:54:34am

Charles - please delete my stupid comment at #333.
Thank you.

381 Ringo the Gringo  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:54:38am

re: #263 Killgore Trout

He sees race and culture as inseparable. A black man can't possibly share his culture in his mind.

That has probably been the view of 99% of humanity up until the past 50 years or so.

382 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:54:47am
383 Kenneth  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:55:41am

re: #358 lostlakehiker

Interesting thoughts. But have you considered joining the modern world? Take responsibility for your own life, instead of blaming others, learn how to do something useful and excel at that? Try freedom instead of oppression, knowledge instead of orthodoxy, tolerance instead of intolerance. Creativity instead of destruction.

It is very curious, and a bit telling, that of all the gifts of Western civilization that have spread to the Muslim world, it is our vices that have taken hold. You see more porn in Saudi Arabia than you do a free press. You can find plenty of fascism but very little democracy. You can find cell phones & cars, but not the intellectual & economic freedom necessary to create those things.

Food for thought, isn't it?

384 Peter Verkooijen  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:56:01am

re: #340 Kenneth
My comment was a bit cynical, but the sword cuts both ways. Radical islam - or the resurgence of islam by the book - is a response to the rise in secularism. That's why muslims claim they are under attack by the west. Terrorism is a symptom of a religion in its death throes.

So up to a point and done smartly I would embrace those Western vices. Our best hope may be to win over the younger generations of the muslim with sex, drugs and rock & roll. Freak em out, you know. Right on!

I mean that in some ways the Middle East is where the West was in the 1960s, with a rising middle class, economic growth, a babyboom reaching their teens and twens, etc.

An islamic reformation is not going to happen, ever. Even if it did, it wouldn't do much good. At the core islam is a war cult and the old texts will always be there for muslims to return to.

385 looking closely  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:56:17am

re: #303 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet

re: #291 looking closely

How many 85 year old Belgians are being prosecuted for collaboration, anyway.


As you say, zero.

The point that this is still on the platform means its important to party leadership, clearly symbolic importance. This begs the question of why its important for Vlaams Belang to forgive Nazi sympathizers 60 years after the fact.

Now to his "credit", De Winter does say that he doesn't want amnesty for war criminals (whom he says should be subject to criminal prosecution) only for "collaborators". Taking that statement at face value, then its not clear to me what a "collaborator" is or who is trying to prosecute them nowadays.

Again, if this is a historical nod to Vlaams Belang's roots, that's something that VB has to deal with. If it wants to clean up its own dirty laundry, it can do so.

386 Poitiers-Lepanto  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:56:43am

re: #379 mama winger

re: #364 Poitiers-Lepanto

The only Lutheran church in America that belongs to that group is the leftist ELCA.

I didn't mean to cause any big discussion, I just appreciate the link to the document, that is in itself an (or, one of many) important paper(s) for future discussions about terribly deep problems.

387 Ringo the Gringo  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:58:29am

re: #371 Charles

I guarantee, beyond any doubt, that if I ever appeared on a show like The Political Cesspool, opposite David Duke, absolutely no one would be cutting me any slack for it.

Unless you hit over the head with a chair.

388 mama winger  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:58:52am

re: #386 Poitiers-Lepanto

Gotcha. I just didn't want the impression to be left that all Lutherans were party to that signing. Not by a long shot.

389 Highrise  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:59:01am

re: #161 Sharmuta

Wow! Tom Paine really lays it out in his closing! You'll love it, Lizards.

He sure does. What a good guy. I laughed when he said shit is still shit. And GOOD for him for releasing this interview. It was very telling.

390 gymnast  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:59:26am

re: #365 mean Gene

Charles, I found this:
[Link: home.hetnet.nl...]

"During the two years after Stalin's death (3-5-53) amnesty was granted to most prisoners who were locked up with the charge of collaboration with the enemy.
Among them were people whom were no Soviet citizens, but whom were taken prisoner by the Red Army or had been handed over to them by the Allied Powers."

So, it looks as though an amnesty was granted to Nazi collaborators by the USSR under new leader Nikita Khrushchev.

The Soviet soldiers that were taken prisoner by the Axis Nazi forces, and were survivors of their captivity at the end of the war, as well as soviet civilians that were at any time behind German Lines (including Partisans) were considered collaborators by the Soviets (Read Solzhenitsyn). The rebuilding of the Soviet Union after the war required vast numbers of slave laborers and these people as well as the Axis POWs in Soviet hands provided it. Few survived.

391 Yank in the EU  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:00:11am

re: #370 AirForceWife

It is important to note that LGF never charged the VB with being Nazis or neo-Nazis. It is a fact, however, that the VB's roots are in the Nazi collaborators, as Dewinter makes explicit, and it is also a fact that VB members honor certain figures who took part in the Holocaust. They also clearly defend a notion of nationalism that includes the element of the white race. Add also many other items of evidence coming from the people themselves. The point, here, is that it would be intelligent to exercise extreme caution in forming alliances in the anti-Islamization movement with such groups, for such reasons as many have pointed.

392 jimmah  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:00:21am

re: #374 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet

But you really have to repudiate large portions of the Ahadith and the Quran to get a tolerant, non-violent Islam.

You have to do a lot of cherry picking - the results are morally superior but theologically weak.

393 Kenneth  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:01:05am

#382 buzzsawmonkey, #384 Peter Verkooijen

I agree & I agree. I think we are articulating different points along the same line. Islamism is a reaction to the failure of the Muslim world, politically & economically, to cope with the encounter with Western modernity. They have taken refuge inside the most narrow and intolerant interpretation of their religion.

394 BenZacharia  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:01:06am

re: #363 Charles

At a certain point, you have to stop believing all of this is just coincidence.

Never! Weirod things have happened than that. I had the easter bunny tell me that this is just a tempest in a teapot. I've met the easter bunny, I've never met you. It's a credibility thing.


/

395 Peacekeeper  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:01:22am

He's wearing a German helmet.
SHH! Don't say anything to offend him. We need that play.

396 Peter Verkooijen  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:01:58am

re: #352 Charles
At the direct file link I get this:

Error Occurred While Processing Request
Error Diagnostic Information
An error occurred while evaluating the expression:
refindnocase("[[:alpha:]]",left(trim(urlname),1) ) and NOT ISDEFINED( 'caller.ATTRIBUTES.' & urlname )
Error near line 74, column 59.
Parameter 1 of function IsDefined which is now "caller.ATTRIBUTES.amp;from" must be a syntactically valid variable name
The error occurred while processing an element with a general identifier of (CFIF), occupying document position (74:4) to (74:111) in the template file D:INETPUBWWWROOTEZSTREAM.COMWWWPRODCUSTOMTAGS FORMURL2ATTRIBUTES.CFM.
...
Query String: id=64230&from=brd
397 BenZacharia  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:02:23am

re: #377 Sharmuta

I don't think the finger works since Charles took away our crayons, BUT I look for it and see if it works.

398 Beagle  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:02:51am

The problem continues to be the fact real authoritarian goose steppers run Belgium and Europe generally at present. And Vlaams Belang is under siege both legally and literally all the time. So there's a much larger context than VB being guys you don't like or support. I don't support Kos, but I don't think the government should shut down their website, put Markos in a secret prison with endless Poison videos, or crush his balls, should they exist.

There's a reason VB has success saying they're the only alternative. It's not far from the truth. Until you wrap your mind around the EU's clampdown on any discussion of certain issues under penalty of law you don't understand this controversy. When you green light the EU or Belgium shutting up DeWinter you're also throwing out most anti-jihad rhetoric permanently.

399 mahatma coat  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:02:59am

re: #394 BenZacharia

your're lying through your teeth.I ve met the easter bunny and he denied even knowing you

400 AirForceWife  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:03:36am

#391 Yank in the EU 10/30/07 11:00:11 am reply quote report 0

re: #370 AirForceWife

It is important to note that LGF never charged the VB with being Nazis or neo-Nazis. It is a fact, however, that the VB's roots are in the Nazi collaborators, as Dewinter makes explicit, and it is also a fact that VB members honor certain figures who took part in the Holocaust. They also clearly defend a notion of nationalism that includes the element of the white race. Add also many other items of evidence coming from the people themselves. The point, here, is that it would be intelligent to exercise extreme caution in forming alliances in the anti-Islamization movement with such groups, for such reasons as many have pointed.

I agree 100%.

401 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:03:40am

re: #385 looking closely

The point that this is still on the platform means its important to party leadership, clearly symbolic importance. This begs the question of why its important for Vlaams Belang to forgive Nazi sympathizers 60 years after the fact.

I agree, and would add for us to not dismiss the power of symbolism- it's certainly not lost on me. Why do they need this? What message does it convey? I want nothing to do with a party whose platform contains full amnesty for all nazi collaborators. It's wrong, and for a number of reasons.

402 gymnast  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:04:01am

re: #378 Charles

gymnast: let's stand down on the friendly fire, please. 'looking closely' is not an enemy.

Sorry about that. I apologize for my criticism of looking closely's post. I apparently misunderstood the content and intent of his post.

403 Roger  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:04:22am

re: #390 gymnast

Yes, as soon as the bells quit tolling: a general amnesty was announced and everyone, inmates and guards alike, quickly fled the area, Summer 1953.

404 WriterMom  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:04:42am

re: #230 Poitiers-Lepanto
{PL}

405 Ma Sands  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:04:49am

re: #347 Orde

And, in like manner, the Bible is central to the reversal of the problem......"church" in the Bible refers to believers.....Luther didn't just start the Lutheran sect, he brought believers back to the truth of the Bible.....as has been done over and over, on quite a few different scales, throughout the last two milleniums' history --and is still being done this very day.........on the smallest scale, in mine own heart.... :)

406 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:05:13am

re: #397 BenZacharia

You have to. They're reading.

407 mama winger  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:05:29am

re: #405 Ma Sands

{Ma}

408 Yank in the EU  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:06:36am

Off to swim. Have a great eveni... afternoon ;)

409 WriterMom  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:07:44am

re: #272 Charles

I have never read anything about this-there was an amnesty in Austria in 1957 IIRC, but I'll take a look and see if I come up with anything. It seems to me absolutely preposterous.

410 Poitiers-Lepanto  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:09:03am

re: #404 WriterMom

re: #230 Poitiers-Lepanto
{PL}

{WM}

I am ecstatic, Charles has led ANOTHER big revolution and has saved the day for all the antijihadist movement.

We can go mainstream now.

The dear invaders must not be so happy today, another big maneuver has failed !

411 Peacekeeper  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:09:34am

Martin Luther had a Nazi future

412 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:10:23am

re: #401 Sharmuta

re: #385 looking closely


The point that this is still on the platform means its important to party leadership, clearly symbolic importance. This begs the question of why its important for Vlaams Belang to forgive Nazi sympathizers 60 years after the fact.

I agree, and would add for us to not dismiss the power of symbolism- it's certainly not lost on me. Why do they need this? What message does it convey? I want nothing to do with a party whose platform contains full amnesty for all nazi collaborators. It's wrong, and for a number of reasons.


Not just wrong, which it is, but stupid. Obviously, some people or group in VB who are sympathetic to the Nazis have enough power in the organization to keep a meaningless, but revealing, plank like this in the platform.

413 Poitiers-Lepanto  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:10:49am

re: #411 Peacekeeper

Martin Luther had a Nazi future

As the official Pagan on the blog, I think that this is highly offensive. What do you mean ?

414 Peter Verkooijen  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:11:37am

But you re: #352 Charles
You had probably already seen the mess I posted at #396 yourself, so apologies for posting that. I get the same error with other links at the site. Probably just a problem on the server at americacast.ezstream.com?

415 BenZacharia  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:11:54am

Hey Filip! Sit and spin!

................/´/)
.............../..../
............../..../
......../´¯/'..'/´¯¯`.& cedil;
...../'/../..../......./¨¯
...('(............. ¯~/'..')
....................'...../
.....''..............._..
.....................(
......................

416 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:12:25am

re: #404 WriterMom

re: #230 Poitiers-Lepanto
{PL}


Did the United Nations know Waldheim had been an SS officer when he was elected to his position at the UN? He wasn't just an officer in the German army, he was an officer in the SS.

417 mama winger  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:12:30am

re: #413 Poitiers-Lepanto

re: #411 Peacekeeper

Martin Luther had a Nazi future

As the official Pagan on the blog, I think that this is highly offensive. What do you mean ?

You're a pagan? I didn't know that.

I'm a Lutheran. I let it pass. :)

418 JimmyTheClaw  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:12:38am

re: #215 stvip

re: #180 WriterMom

Islam is different because it's portable. Imperial Japan was contained and fortunately-obliterated.

Imperial Japan was expansionist, actually viewed brutality as a virtue, and indeed, committed every war crime they could. A generation later and Japan is a democratic, pro-Western, peaceful country (though racism is still very much alive there).

The whole connection of Islam and terrorism is not as simple as you make it out to be. Islamism is on the rise, it is a galvanizing and unifying force for the war against the West. But anti-Western anti-Jewish terroristic violence existed before this. Arafat and the PLO were secular, and Communism used to be a rallying cry for other Palestinian terror groups. Now that Islam is involved, it becomes both a stronger force, and a bigger mess to sort out, as the banner of Islam allies together disparate players.

Our goal is to separate Islam from Islamofascism, and eradicate Islamofascism - and any other form of fascism that becomes a threat. Not eliminate Islam and the Koran.

after we NUKED two cities we told them how they were allowed to worship their emperor god

419 konservo  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:13:03am

re: #396 Peter Verkooijen

It worked for me, Dewinter comes on at about 37min into the recording.

420 Charles  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:14:00am

re: #398 Beagle

The problem continues to be the fact real authoritarian goose steppers run Belgium and Europe generally at present. And Vlaams Belang is under siege both legally and literally all the time. So there's a much larger context than VB being guys you don't like or support. I don't support Kos, but I don't think the government should shut down their website, put Markos in a secret prison with endless Poison videos, or crush his balls, should they exist.

There's a reason VB has success saying they're the only alternative. It's not far from the truth. Until you wrap your mind around the EU's clampdown on any discussion of certain issues under penalty of law you don't understand this controversy. When you green light the EU or Belgium shutting up DeWinter you're also throwing out most anti-jihad rhetoric permanently.

Nobody has suggested the VB should be shut down, especially not me. I'm saying the counter-jihad movement is making a big mistake by allying themselves with people like this.

421 funkyfantom  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:14:08am

re: #149 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

OT

Hamas taking lessons from Hezzballah, establishing defensive bunkers in Gaza

Brig.-Gen. Moshe "Chico" Tamir, head of the Gaza Division, said Monday that Hamas was trying to establish a bunker system as well as fortified rocket-launching and surveillance positions along the security fence with the Gaza Strip.

Tamir said that Hamas was "building an army" in the Gaza Strip and had obtained unprecedented capabilities through smuggling tunnels between Gaza and Egypt. On Monday, head of the Shin Bet (Israel Security Agency) Yuval Diskin said that since Israel's withdrawal from Gaza in 2005, the Palestinians have smuggled over 112 tons of explosives into the Strip.

"They are trying to dig tunnels, build surveillance positions and mortar-fire stations along the fence," Tamir told reporters during a briefing concerning Efrati's death. "They are trying to build this up and we are trying to stop them."

Luckily for them, the Israeli government has listened to the "Human Rights" community and decided not to cut off any electricity or vital infrastructure to Gaza.

422 Roger  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:14:34am

re: #413 Poitiers-Lepanto

[Link: www.humanitas-international.org...]

423 Peter Verkooijen  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:14:39am

re: #419 konservo
Save/record it, send it to Charles.

424 BenZacharia  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:14:50am

re: #413 Poitiers-Lepanto

Could it be that the largest printing of MLs last work, he died they day it was published (heh), carried the imprimatur of the nazi party.

425 Peacekeeper  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:15:05am

re: #413 Poitiers-Lepanto

re: #411 Peacekeeper


Martin Luther had a Nazi future

As the official Pagan on the blog, I think that this is highly offensive. What do you mean ?

Ironically the Nazis looked back to Luther for their anti-semitism. In his later years Luther became a deranged jew hater.

426 stvip  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:16:01am

re: #287 buzzsawmonkey

and your posts have left me with the distinct impression that, despite the occasional averment to the contrary, you fall into a more anti-religious camp than not.

As my posts in this very thread should make clear, I am very much against tarring an entire religion, or religion in general.
At worst you could say that I focus disproportionately on Jewish extremism, but that is because I have an explicit, openly declared double-standard about that: I expect more from, and am more concerned about the doings, of my own people. I also believe Jewish extremism is a significant threat to the existence of Israel, both directly (direct political violence) and indirectly (causing brain drain, which causes terrible long-term damage).
But as long as no coercion of others is involved, the degree of observance of a Jew does not really interest me.
All in all, I think I am more curious and affectionate about Judaism than most secular Jews. Most secular Jews wouldn't touch a page of Talmud, as a matter of principle (and this has relevance to the discussion- as rejecting others wholesale, both the good and the bad, is a natural emotional response to feeling threatened by them).

427 Peacekeeper  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:16:23am

Wiki
Luther is also known for his writings about the Jews,[9] the nature and consequences of which are the subject of scholarly debate. His statements that Jews' homes should be destroyed, their synagogues burned, money confiscated, and liberty curtailed, were revived and given widespread publicity by the Nazis in Germany in 1933–45.[10] As a result of this and his revolutionary theological views, his legacy remains controversial.[11][12]

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

428 Poitiers-Lepanto  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:16:48am

re: #417 mama winger

re: #413 Poitiers-Lepanto

re: #411 Peacekeeper

Martin Luther had a Nazi future

As the official Pagan on the blog, I think that this is highly offensive. What do you mean ?

You're a pagan? I didn't know that.

I'm a Lutheran. I let it pass. :)

It's more an old joke about the fact that I want to open a strip-bar in Mecca and things like that.
"Non denominational religious fanatic" would do either.

Thank you for the pass.

And
Praise the Lord !

429 WriterMom  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:17:03am

re: #409 WriterMom

I've just found a link...there was an amnesty. Just after Stalin's death.

430 mama winger  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:17:45am

*sigh*

perhaps this is a good time for my nap

:)

Just a note, Martin Luther did not hold these positions early in his ministry and for much of the time that he worked. A lot of this stuff he wrote towards the end of his life. There has been much speculation that perhaps at the end he was daft. Either way, we are responsible for the words we speak and write. Let that be a lesson.

431 konservo  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:18:00am

re: #423 Peter Verkooijen

re: #419 konservo
Save/record it, send it to Charles.

How do I do that with streaming audio?

432 Crusader Rabbit  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:18:25am

re: #343 buzzsawmonkey

re: #309 Crusader Rabbit

Henry VIII created his own church in the early 1500s, and England was riven by Catholic/Protestant conflict until the House of Hanover took the throne around the beginning of the 18th century. That's about 200 years of religion-inspired conflict.

There was the Hundred Years War on the continent of Europe.

I forget the date of Martin Luther's 95 Theses, but there was certainly Catholic/Protestant conflict in France up through the reign of the Sun King, and among the German states until the early 18th century.

If you call Luther's theses the beginning of the Reformation the it's 1517. I tend to see it as starting a century earlier with the excommunication and execution of Jan Hus and the rebellion it inspired.

Even so, you cannot attribute all of the conflicts in Europe following the Reformation to the Reformation. Europe was hardly at peace before, and Eastern Europe was in a constant struggle with muslim invasions both before and after the Reformation.

433 gymnast  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:18:56am

Most of the German POW that the Soviets held at the end of WWII were not repatrioted until 1955 or so and IIRC only about 5% of those captured ever made it back home. I have not seen reliable figures for the Japanese troops taken by the Russians in China (Japan had about 2 million troops in all of China at the end of the war) . They may have fared even worse.

434 Poitiers-Lepanto  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:19:54am

re: #425 Peacekeeper

re: #413 Poitiers-Lepanto

re: #411 Peacekeeper


Martin Luther had a Nazi future


As the official Pagan on the blog, I think that this is highly offensive. What do you mean ?

Ironically the Nazis looked back to Luther for their anti-semitism. In his later years Luther became a deranged jew hater.

The discussion about antisemitism in the centuries before the XX is a complex discussion, the nazis were just USING him like they used Nietzsche.

435 stvip  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:21:19am

re: #418 JimmyTheClaw


after we NUKED two cities we told them how they were allowed to worship their emperor god

I wasn't saying the task has to be accomplished with words alone.

re: #327 Peter Verkooijen

Secularization of the islamic world looks like a more attainable goal than a reformation. Flood them with hip hop, action movies, jeans and internet porn

Where are the Swedish lesbians we've been promised?
Charles, what kind of two-bit, swede-lesbianless operation are you running here?

436 Poitiers-Lepanto  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:21:56am

re: #420 Charles

Nobody has suggested the VB should be shut down, especially not me. I'm saying the counter-jihad movement is making a big mistake by allying themselves with people like this.

Thank you, Sir, thank you very much.

437 Ezekiel2517  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:22:00am

Hmph..I keep waiting for Tom Paine to bring up the Holocaust denial allegations.

438 Ben Hur  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:22:58am

re: #430 mama winger

*sigh*

perhaps this is a good time for my nap

:)

Just a note, Martin Luther did not hold these positions early in his ministry and for much of the time that he worked. A lot of this stuff he wrote towards the end of his life. There has been much speculation that perhaps at the end he was daft. Either way, we are responsible for the words we speak and write. Let that be a lesson.


True. At first, he expected the Jews to follow him because of the importance he put on the Torah.

439 PETN Sandwich  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:24:03am

re: #335 Beagle

Scroll down to Prosecution of Perpetrators/Nazi War Criminals.

There's a lack of action, not clemency.

Sounds like a pension controversy in fact.
Cash for Belgians who aided the Nazis
By Toby Helm in Brussels

...
The ruling by the region's parliament provoked outrage among veteran resistance fighters in French-speaking Wallonia.
...


Remember that VB is 1st a separatist movement.

Vichy France, everybody was a member of the French Resistance AFTER the war was over.

The fwenchy Walloniaprovided a whole SS division in WWII, where the flems look like were able to muster a battalion...

The Belgian nazi collaborator Robert de Foy, who spent his time between rounding up Jews and separatist/nationalist Flems, kept his through job, from before the war, through the war, and after. Have the Walloons got their amnesty already? Could be...

The propaganda in THICK in Belgium.

So, yup, VB not only has a few nazis and racists in its closet, heck, they are sitting at the kitchen table.
Their opponents are also anything but clean.

As a sidebar - here's a real 'prize' - "The father of U.S. space medicine"

440 WriterMom  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:24:10am

re: #436 Poitiers-Lepanto

That's really the essence of it. I'll fight jihad till my dying days, but I'll pass up allies like this because after Islam, the Jews cannot be far down their list.

441 MattMacD  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:24:14am

re: #241 Golem Akbar

re: #232 mama winger

Reason is at the very heart of the Judeo-Christian tradition. Reason has no place in islam. In fact, islam is blatantly anti-reason.

You could say the same thing about Buddhism

You really couldn't. In fact, the whole point of buddhism is to question what you are taught. It is explicitly stated. But nice try with the religious relativism.

442 BenZacharia  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:24:23am

BTW, are the freepers on 'our' side?
/ducking just for asking.

443 MattMacD  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:24:47am

re: #441 MattMacD

re: #241 Golem Akbar

re: #232 mama winger

Reason is at the very heart of the Judeo-Christian tradition. Reason has no place in islam. In fact, islam is blatantly anti-reason.

You could say the same thing about Buddhism

You really couldn't. In fact, the whole point of buddhism is to question what you are taught. It is explicitly stated. But nice try with the religious relativism.

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."

444 hous bin pharteen  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:25:24am

re: #420 Charles

It is going to be impossible in the future to get people to realize the threat of islamo fascists if the left paints us as nothing more than racist haters. They are already doing that now. So we give them as much ammo as they need?
And how do you convince people you are not racist that just hate Muslims?
By associating with people who actually are?

This is beyond stupid.

445 WriterMom  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:25:28am

re: #416 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet

I think it was known. It certainly wasn't a secret...

446 Peacekeeper  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:25:40am

That's it! Alert Charles! We're pulling in the 16th century too!

The discussion about antisemitism in the centuries before the XX is a complex discussion, the nazis were just USING him like they used Nietzsche.

At the heart of the debate about Luther's influence is whether it is anachronistic to view his work as a precursor of the racial antisemitism of the National Socialists. Some scholars see Luther's influence as limited, and the Nazis' use of his work as opportunistic. Martin Brecht argues that there is a world of difference between Luther's belief in salvation, which depended on a faith in Jesus as the messiah — a belief Luther criticized the Jews for rejecting — and the Nazis' ideology of racial antisemitism.[90] Johannes Wallmann argues that Luther's writings against the Jews were largely ignored in the 18th and 19th centuries, and that there is no continuity between Luther's thought and Nazi ideology. [91] Uwe Siemon-Netto agrees, arguing that it was because the Nazis were already anti-Semites that they revived Luther's work.[92][93] Hans J. Hillerbrand agrees that to focus on Luther is to adopt an essentially ahistorical perspective of Nazi antisemitism that ignores other contributory factors in German history.[94][95] Other scholars argue that, even if his views were merely anti-Judaic, the violence of them lent a new element to the standard Christian suspicion of Judaism. Ronald Berger writes that Luther is credited with "Germanizing the Christian critique of Judaism and establishing anti-Semitism as a key element of German culture and national identity."[96] Paul Rose argues that he caused a "hysterical and demonizing mentality" about Jews to enter German thought and discourse, a mentality that might otherwise have been absent.[97]

447 Dead Sea Squirrel  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:26:59am

re: #382 buzzsawmonkey

re: #361 Kenneth

There have been several attempts to reform Islam before, and periods of relative tolerance. But these movements were short lived and the reactionary elements always won out. There have also been several extremist movements which gained influence for a while and then were defeated or faded away. The "average" Islam has been conservative, intolerant, but not always expansively violent.
Again: a bottom-up reformation of Islam will require a decisive defeat of the reactionary elements currently in the ascendant, imposed from without--just as Shinto reformed after Japan's decisive defeat in WWII, and just as modern-day rabbinic Judaism was a response to the decisive destruction of the Temple by the Romans.

Prior attempts to reform Islam have come from within. The decisive external defeat which will truly reform it is still to come.

Bingo, buzz. I've just caught up on this thread, and I'm with you and stvip. It's a non sequiter to say that because the Koran must be taken literally it can never be reinterpreted. I would only add one element to your "decisive defeat": shame. The Jihadis must suffer a humiliating defeat, AND we must temper our softer impulses after the defeat, holding up their violent and anti-semitic texts to public shame until that shame forces them to find new interpretations and to articulate a benign Islam, which we can then all pretend agree is the "true" and "literal" meaning (i.e., the meaning intended by God in the giving of the text), anathematizing all other interpretations.

This is why I tend to give a lot of slack to W and others who speak of a benign Islam, however nauseating it is to the typical lizard. We have to pretend it exists, because not all of the billion Muslims are going to Christianize or Jeffersonian-Secularize after the coming debacle (which we will win). Some sort of benign Islam will have to be offered so that they can claim it, and claim that really, it was, y'know, what they always believed, and thus save face.

448 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:28:28am

re: #415 BenZacharia

Awesome!

449 Poitiers-Lepanto  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:29:05am

re: #440 WriterMom

re: #436 Poitiers-Lepanto

That's really the essence of it. I'll fight jihad till my dying days, but I'll pass up allies like this because after Islam, the Jews cannot be far down their list.

True.
And I have lived in Europe too many years, I will not forget the houses of immigrants from Turkey burned down by the neonazis in Germany...houses full of women and babies.

These are not allies, these are enemies of the human kind, like the islamonazis...exactly in the same way.

they come from the same shadow...

450 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:30:30am
451 Roger  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:32:17am

re: #445 WriterMom

Well I doubt the UN would come to a counter jihadi conference anyway :-)

452 Peacekeeper  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:32:36am

P-L

So I'm just pointing out a fact. The guy gets endless cred fro standing up to the Pope and starting the Reformation. Thing is he didn't just have a better idea for Catholics: he had one for Jews, and when they rejected his overtures he went off the rails, laying the foundations of a very German anti-semitism.

453 Poitiers-Lepanto  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:32:40am

re: #446 Peacekeeper

That's it! Alert Charles! We're pulling in the 16th century too!

LOL !
The LGF University is rolling !

454 Peacekeeper  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:34:00am

The same evils weave in and out of history. They dress in different clothes but the dance is the same.

455 looking closely  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:34:34am

re: #362 Charles

re: #371 Charles

I guarantee, beyond any doubt, that if I ever appeared on a show like The Political Cesspool, opposite David Duke, absolutely no one would be cutting me any slack for it.


I'm not familiar enough with "The Political Cesspool" to comment on that, but I don't think ipso facto appearing on a program opposite Duke makes one a racist.

That's a different thing, mind you, than how such an appearance might be cast or construed, especially by an observer with an agenda.

Sure, nobody would cut you any slack for it (and you are certainly wise enough NOT to make that kind of appearance). But then again, as we've seen, there are people out there accusing you of inciting homicide without rational basis anyway.

Now with respect to Vlaams Belang, as far as I am concerned, with their shaky history, Nazi amnesty plank, and borderline racist comments, they have enough taint of (real) racism for me to want to steer clear of them at this time. They're not getting my vote (not even if I decide to emigrate to Belgium!).

I stand by this remark I made in the original thread on this issue.

456 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:34:48am

re: #432 Crusader Rabbit

I think the current problems in europe can find their roots in socialism.

I used to think socialism was bad. After this weekend- I think it's evil.

457 Charles  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:37:41am

I can't get any of the audio links to the DeWinter appearance on the Political Cesspool to work. Those of you who have: is there anything pertinent to these discussions in it?

About the Political Cesspool:

[Link: www.google.com...]

Note that if you go to their page, there are very prominent links to the Institute for Historical Review:

[Link: www.adl.org...]

...and the Council of Conservative Citizens:

[Link: www.adl.org...]

This is most definitely not an innocuous radio show.

458 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:40:15am
459 zuckerlilly  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:40:51am

re: #137 Sharmuta


"We speak up for the majority of european people who think like us."

nona ;-) of course he can only speak for those who think like they. He doesn't speak for me or the majority in Europe. He wants to suggest that the majority in Europe thinks like them but this is utterly wrong. Definitely.

460 Peacekeeper  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:41:46am

I'm only surprised that people hear "David Duke" and still want to argue.

461 neocon hippie  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:42:41am

Last night I took a quick spin through the Political Cesspool message board. Plenty of racism and anti-Semitism, although to be fair, there are commenters who challenge the racists and anti-Semites.

462 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:43:30am

I'm working now on a well bore diagram, and I just discovered if you start a cell in Excel with "FTP" it thinks you are making a link. I didn't think anyone ftp'd much anymore. Back at Halliburton, where just about every machine in logging and perforating had the SU password of "wireline", I'd ftp to other machines, but I could do what I needed in telnet as well.


Anyway, in my use today, 'FTP' is flowing tubing pressure.

463 wanumba  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:44:13am

re: #231 Ben Hur

Arafat and the PLO were secular

Careful not to apply our definition of "secular" to different cultures.
Arafat was not secular. He was more pious than most of the 700 club combined.


That went THUD.
Saw the 700 Club about twenty years ago and they devoted long air time to encouraging amongst its viewers a love of Israel and its people. Their reporting on the Middle East was the best I'd seen on the TV, with a lot of solid warnings about the threats Israel was facing.
Haven't seen it since, but given that they were way ahead of the media curve on the Middle East, bucking the trend of the growing Left hostility, by being boldly pro-Israel, it seems an unkind cut to compare Arafat's bizarro "pious occupation with murder" with any sort of piousness exhibited by the 700 Club and its audience.

464 looking closely  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:48:30am

re: #367 gymnast

re: #353 looking closely

Peddle your horse shit somewhere else shitbird.


The point is you shouldn't tar someone merely by association. The fact that two people share a stage doesn't necessarily mean they share an ideology

"He once appeared on a racist program with David Duke" is certainly suspicious. . .but by itself meaningless without further context. Much more important is WHAT WAS SAID at the program.

EG the president of Columbia University recently introduced a speech by Iranian president Ahmedinejad.

Do you think this academic also thinks Israel needs to be wiped off the map? Can you think of an alternative explanation?

With respect to Duke, lets just say I dont have a lot of respect for the guy. My understanding is that he was actually expelled from the KKK in the late 70s for embezzlement, something that both he and they covered up later because of mutual embarassment.

Again with respect to Vlaams Belang, I think enough light has been shined on them to see what's going on here. I'm not whitewashing their racist history/connections.

465 konservo  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:48:40am

re: #457 Charles

Dewinter doesn't say anything new, but the after the interview one of the hosts says: "Good on him, but who really cares? We have our own problems to worry about!" but the main host and a caller (who apparently works for the show as well) both agree that they share a common cause with Dewinter, saying "They're [VB] doing what we need to be doing over here!"

466 Speak softly  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:49:54am

re: #447 Dead Sea Squirrel

This is why I tend to give a lot of slack to W and others who speak of a benign Islam, however nauseating it is to the typical lizard. We have to pretend it exists, because not all of the billion Muslims are going to Christianize or Jeffersonian-Secularize after the coming debacle (which we will win). Some sort of benign Islam will have to be offered so that they can claim it, and claim that really, it was, y'know, what they always believed, and thus save face.

I cannot tell you how much I wish I shared your optimism. I'm not at all sure we'll win but I'm very sure that even if we do, Muslims are not going to accept "some sort of benign Islam" that is offered (by whom?). They may stop fighting, and terrorism may fall out of favor, but they will always believe there is no God but God, that Mohamed is his prophet, that the Koran is the literal word of God and cannot be interpreted, and that when they regain their strength the war will resume.

467 konservo  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:50:05am

re: #465 konservo

The hosts also agree that they would rather see funding go to VB than to the government of Israel.

468 stashiu  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:50:57am

I could care less about the belief system of someone trying to kill me or place my country under their control, or for that matter, that the street thug had a bad childhood. The answer is still the same. Lets focus on the sociopathic behaviors.

The nationalism in Europe does tend to be racially oriented. As DeWinter says, that is their history. It also tends to be very virulent when activated. That is why we need to be careful in our alliances.

A healthy response to Islamic fascism is not national socialist fascism.

469 Orde  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:52:45am

re: #361 Kenneth

re: #350 buzzsawmonkey

There have been several attempts to reform Islam before, and periods of relative tolerance. But these movements were short lived and the reactionary elements always won out. There have also been several extremist movements which gained influence for a while and then were defeated or faded away. The "average" Islam has been conservative, intolerant, but not always expansively violent.

There's a

470 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:52:56am

re: #459 zuckerlilly

It certainly looks as though he's trying to claim more support than they actually have. It's a very transparent statement- especially for anyone who suffered under the clinton administration.

But seriously- that comment is sad. Who did he think he'd fool? Of course a party should speak for the majority of the people it represents- that's it's purpose! More than a leader speaks- a party platform speaks. I've read what I need to of this party's platform. This party stinks.

471 Tasty Beverage  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:55:23am

#457 Charles

Dewinter talked about how he thinks VB will be in power in a few years. They're in the US looking for support for their cause, they want to meet with Tancredo (! - hopefully just to learn effective methods against illegal immigration - ed.), they have a meeting with Buchanan scheduled the next day (big surprise), radical islam is a threat to us all in the US and Europe. Not too much, nothing shocking.

David Duke is not on this show, he was on the show two days prior.

Do you want me to download it and send it to you? Is that legal?

472 Charles  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:57:51am

re: #471 Tasty Beverage

#457 Charles

Dewinter talked about how he thinks VB will be in power in a few years. They're in the US looking for support for their cause, they want to meet with Tancredo (! - hopefully just to learn effective methods against illegal immigration - ed.), they have a meeting with Buchanan scheduled the next day (big surprise), radical islam is a threat to us all in the US and Europe. Not too much, nothing shocking.

David Duke is not on this show, he was on the show two days prior.

Do you want me to download it and send it to you? Is that legal?

Thanks, it sounds like there's nothing very noteworthy about it.

It's far more noteworthy that the show itself appears to be run by white supremacists, as should be very obvious from uke's appearance. Looking through their archives, Duke is a frequent guest.

473 zuckerlilly  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:57:57am

re: #195 J.S.

I liked the interviewer and his questions. so Dewinter wants mass deportations for any Muslim who fails to assimilate? And if one of his daughters brought home a Black or lesbian, then he'd know he'd raised her wrong? And the anti-multiculturalism (yes, it has problems) but what does Dewinter wish to replace it with -- monoculturalism?

no, with monoethnicism.

474 Charles  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:58:11am

uke = Duke.

475 Dar ul Harb  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:58:40am

Who in their right mind would appear on a show called "The Political Cesspool" anyway?

(I was appalled to see that it originates from Memphis.)

476 mahatma coat  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:00:07pm

re: #435 stvip

are you not getting the swedish lesbians?Try refreshing

477 Roger  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:01:08pm

re: #460 Peacekeeper

My first thought is, 'There is a plastic surgeon that needs to be shot!'...then next thought, 'Nah!'

478 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:02:05pm

re: #475 Dar ul Harb

Who in their right mind would appear on a show called "The Political Cesspool" anyway?

That's a really good question. Last I looked, cesspools still weren't hip.

479 Charles  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:02:11pm

The more I look into the guests on The Political Cesspool, the more connections to white supremacists I'm finding. It's a who's who of hate groups, neo-Nazis, and White Power freaks.

480 Different Drummer  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:02:21pm

When the enemy of my enemy also opposes the values for which I stand, then the enemy of my enemy is also my enemy.

481 Husky40  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:02:22pm

I could care less of what Dewinter really thinks or does. I haven't listened yet to what this guy has to say. What truely bothers me is this incapacity of understanding what European nations are all about. On this blog I've read time and and time again how Europe is lost to the jihad, how the euroweenies are nothing but cowards, how Europe will soon lie under the Crescent, how it's turning into Eurabia.

I keep reading accusations of nationalism, fascism and crap like that. You don't really get it, do you, folks?

What you people don't understand is that EURABIA doesn't have only a religious meaning. IT's EURABIA, for Christ's sake! Europeans don't fear only Islam, they fear that some day they will become not only religious, but also ethnic minorities. That Europe will be just another Arabia, a new land under a very Islamic sun. Is it so goddamn difficult to acknowledge that some people would like their countries to remain as they were for centuries? Racists? Well that's a cheap shot. You keep accusing Europeans of not fighting back. Well, if they would actually fight back, it's because they're all a bunch of nazi-wannabees, racist supremasists and White Power thugs, as I've read today.

It's funny how Americans accuse Europeans of nationalism when Mexifornia is right on the corner. Funny and sad, at the same time. You'll regret it some day, but it will to late, I'm afraid.

I can't really tell you just how dissapointed I am. I know you don't really care, but for me it's a grea disillusion - you're all just as the PC as the loony left or the EU Comission.

482 looking closely  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:05:18pm

re: #457 Charles
So now you're onto something. If possible, I'd love to hear what this guy had to say on the radio with David Duke; that might shed some light on his more unguarded sentiments.

Something tells me that that whatever was discussed with Duke on that program isn't going to reflect too well on either one of them (or the host, for that matter).

re: #460 Peacekeeper

I'm only surprised that people hear "David Duke" and still want to argue.


Actually, I'm a bit suprised at that logic.
eg: "Peacekeeper once participated in a webblog thread discussing David Duke". Get my point?
To me, that doesn't end the argument, it starts it.

Again, I am being Devil's advocate here. I've personally seen enough evidence of bad history and borderline racism to form a negative opinion about this particular group. The smell isn't good, though it doesn't necessarily mean I disagree with every single plank in their platform, or that there isn't anything there worth redeeming.

483 Gharqad  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:05:58pm

re: #476 mahatma coat

re: #435 stvip

are you not getting the swedish lesbians?Try refreshing

I only get them on pay-per-view.

484 hous bin pharteen  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:07:29pm

re: #481 Husky40

Controlling immigration and hating other races are not the same thing.
Sorry if that is an inconvenient fact.

485 mahatma coat  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:08:08pm

re: #481 Husky40

well well ...you've more courage than me ,but good point, as a european may I ask how LGF would like us to respond .Just how would a very polite pc anti jihad go anyway?Its a backlash .They tend to be disproportionate and unreasonable

486 TalkinKamel  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:09:38pm

#481 Husky

Well, you Europeans certainly don't understand Americans if you just can't figure out why we might be somewhat reluctant to lend our support to a burgeoning Neo-Nazi group.

You say you could "care less" what Dewinter really thinks or does. Unfortunately, we do. After WWII, and the current rise of anti-semetism around the world, we must.

Also, this I don't care mindset you express, truly bothers me. Isn't that what landed Europe in hot water the last time? And the time before that? And---and---and----

I also find it hard to believe that Europe's only choices are between Eurabia and trying to reanimate the rotten corpse of white-supremacy/Nazism (that worked so well last time).

487 Peacekeeper  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:10:37pm

re: #482 looking closely

I don't want to hear David Duke's opinion on anything, I don't want to hear from people who would book him on their media. It's a "tell" . Seeing Duke's name on a guest list is like seeing that stripe on a skunk- stay away.

488 mahatma coat  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:10:42pm

re: #486 TalkinKamel

please explain the alliance with Stalin

489 WriterMom  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:10:44pm

re: #481 Husky40

You need to relax. Are you comfortable with political parties fighting Islamicization, along with NOT disavowing Nazi links and history?

Is that alright?

490 hous bin pharteen  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:12:01pm

..........and what is with this assumption that LGF should get on board because we are all white?

491 allahakchew  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:12:28pm

Just stopped by before leaving on errands. There has been so much info put out that I am unsure whether I allready have read this, but if not here goes;

Anti-Semitism International
Identity, Tradition and Sovereignty" (ITS) is a group in the European Parliament formed on January 15, 2007 by members who share xenophobic, racist and anti-Semitic views. The grouping brings together 20 Members of the European Parliament (MEPs) from seven countries -- meeting the minimum number of members required to establish a bloc under the Parliament's rules.


The Flemish Interest party was formed in 2004 after its precursor, the Flemish Bloc, was declared a racist organization in Belgium's highest court. The party has supplied three MEPs to ITS - Philip Claeys, Koenraad Dillen and Frank Vanhecke. It campaigns for the independence of Flanders, the Dutch-speaking part of Belgium, and is deeply hostile to immigrants and minorities. Under the leadership of Filip Dewinter, the party has tried to court Jewish voters by ratcheting up its anti-Muslim rhetoric. However, its participation in the ITS suggests that its traditional anti-Semitism has not been discarded.

[Link: www.adl.org...]

U.S. Anti-Immigrant Groups Meet with Belgian Racists


The Robert A. Taft Club, a right-wing organization linked to The American Cause, founded by Patrick Buchanan in 1993, hosted a speech on February 23, 2007 by Filip Dewinter and Frank Vanhecke, leaders of the racist and xenophobic far-right Belgian party, Flemish Interest (Vlaams Belang), in Arlington, Virginia.

Flemish Interest was formed in 2004 after a ruling in Belgium's highest court declared its precursor, the Flemish Bloc, a racist organization and cut off its state funding, causing the group to disband. Flemish Interest is deeply hostile to immigrants and minorities, and its members have a history of espousing racist and anti-Semitic views. It has made headlines in Europe as one of the founding members of a new racist and anti-Semitic political group in the European Parliament called "Identity, Tradition and Sovereignty" (ITS).....
..see above..


[Link: www.adl.org...]

There is so much info out there that it is unbelievable that anyone would think this group is benign.......

492 calcajun  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:12:44pm

re: #327 Peter Verkooijen

Why do you think they are up in arms.

493 WriterMom  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:13:58pm

re: #481 Husky40

Furthermore:

Is it so goddamn difficult to acknowledge that some people would like their countries to remain as they were for centuries?

Can't you have a political party that defends Western (Judeo-Christian) values without the baggage of a Nazi past, and one that emphatically condemns Nazi values and emphatically disavows that past?

494 TalkinKamel  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:14:58pm

#485 mahatma coat

If you chose unreason and disproportion, that's what you will end up with.

And don't count on America coming to Europe's rescue yet again. Europe really is going to have to make some serious choices this time around and control its apparently insatiable appetite for backlash, drama, revolution, killing large numbers of its citizens, all-powerful governments and paramilitary organizations with really cool looking uniforms.

Whatever you do, don't think you can induldge in endless backlash, unreason, disproportion, chaos and then expect the good ol' US to come along and help you back on your feet with a nice new Marshal Plan.

495 mahatma coat  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:15:53pm

re: #490 hous bin pharteen
I'd rather concentrate on culture than pigmentation

496 hous bin pharteen  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:16:33pm

re: #488 mahatma coat

please explain the alliance with Stalin

Okay.
Hitler and Stalin believed they could carve up the world.
So they started with Poland.
Stalin believed they were best buds so he allied with Hitler and the Nazi's.
Then Hitler turned on him and attacked the Soviet Union.

So I guess the moral of the story is, if you ally your self with Nazi's they will lie to you and pretend they are your friend, then attack you when the time is right.

497 Roger  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:16:35pm

re: #486 TalkinKamel

I would like to point out again a major difference between now and then. That major difference is Israel!

498 Peacekeeper  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:17:00pm

The future of Europe is the History of Yugoslavia.

499 looking closely  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:17:15pm

re: #479 Charles

The more I look into the guests on The Political Cesspool, the more connections to white supremacists I'm finding. It's a who's who of hate groups, neo-Nazis, and White Power freaks.


I suppose the "Cesspool" earned its monicker for a reason.

Is the sort of program where pretty much anyone can go on and say their piece, or is it the exclusive domain of fringe whack-jobs that can't find a voice anywhere else? (I don't know. . .I'm asking).

Again, being Devil's advocate, radio shows often thrive on controversy. EG: On a given Howard Stern show, you could have guests that are prostitutes, actors, politicians (do I repeat myself?), alcoholics, athletes, etc. It isn't necessarily fair to lump every guest together.

500 hous bin pharteen  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:17:59pm

.........and yes.
That is the correct analogy.

501 TalkinKamel  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:18:27pm

#490 hous bin phartin

I'm usually a lovely shade of bright green, myself, except for alternate Fridays, when I turn magnta, and Sunday, when I go chameleon, reflecting all sorts of pretty colors.

(As I've said before, to the point of utter boredom, what does being white have to do with resisting Islam? The Darfurians are black, and Islam's been kicking their butts for decades---not to mention the way Islam treat's Oriental Christians, in Indonesia and Filipinos in the Phillippines. Can you say "Adam Gadahn?" I knew you could!)

502 Highrise  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:19:49pm

If I didn't know a thing about LGF and I just happened upon this interview, I'd have an inkling as to what this group leader is all about. Also, one look at the platform also would raise my eyebrow.

How there can be any question now of the taint (especially given all the evidence now) in the org is beyond me....defies street smart logic.

Tom Paine, if you read this, thank you for doing this interview.

503 Lauraf  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:20:05pm

re: #488 mahatma coat

re: #486 TalkinKamel

please explain the alliance with Stalin

If the USSR had fallen to the Nazis, there would have been no way to defeat them, at least not until after the A-bomb was invented, and then at a huge cost in loss of life.

Was it the right decision? I wouldn't be here but for it, so I can't really offer an objective opinion.

504 zuckerlilly  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:20:16pm

re: #272 Charles

Does anyone know if DeWinter's claim that the Soviets gave amnesty to Nazi collaborators is true? I seriously doubt it, but I haven't been able to find any information on it yet.

Charles, it was called "Berija-amnesty" and started after Stalin's death 1953. The last amnesty was from 9/17/1955 were all collaborators were amnested. But they could hardly find a home or work.

505 mahatma coat  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:21:12pm

re: #494 TalkinKamel

war IS unreason and disproportion.........and I don't think we should have to depend on the good 'ol USA(and thank you from the botttom of my heart for the last two times)itsd a source of shame that we've just depended on the US and diverted funds from defence to support our socialist economies.The really ugly truth is its not in america's interest to see us fall

506 bluebonnet  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:21:35pm

As an American having lived in the Flemish area of Belgium for 4 years, I saw firsthand the rise of the Vlaams party there. Thes Belgians there that I know personally who voted for this party are not white supremists, but are hardworking citizens. They feel like the socialists in power in Brussels have completely ignored them, and are pushing Islam down their throats. They also feel they have no power; meanwhile the immigration problem grows worse each day. The Islam immigrants refuse to assimilate into the Belgian culture so today even the Belgian police refuse to go into certain areas of the larger cities there (torching cars is a favorite pastime, as is in Franch with these immigrants). The average Flemish are rapidly losing their identities, meanwhile areas of their cities are looking more and more like a third world country. The immigrants do not work (the majority of them have settled into the French-speaking (Wallon) areas ). The majority of the Belgian wealth is in the Flemish (Dutch-speaking) area who have to support the unemployed immigrants living in the Wallon area. Another reason that the Flemish support the Vlaams party and who can blame them.

The whole time that I lived there, the left socialists took aim at everyone and anyone who dared to speak against them. They have tried just about everything to stop the spread of the Vlaams party. The media in Belgium is controlled by the left The socialists want to see the Vlamms destroyed so then and only then, there will be no opposition and total lack of democracy in Belgium

507 Charles  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:21:39pm

re: #499 looking closely

re: #479 Charles

The more I look into the guests on The Political Cesspool, the more connections to white supremacists I'm finding. It's a who's who of hate groups, neo-Nazis, and White Power freaks.

I suppose the "Cesspool" earned its monicker for a reason.

Is the sort of program where pretty much anyone can go on and say their piece, or is it the exclusive domain of fringe whack-jobs that can't find a voice anywhere else? (I don't know. . .I'm asking).

Again, being Devil's advocate, radio shows often thrive on controversy. EG: On a given Howard Stern show, you could have guests that are prostitutes, actors, politicians (do I repeat myself?), alcoholics, athletes, etc. It isn't necessarily fair to lump every guest together.

Go see for yourself. Almost all of the guests are fringe wackos and white supremacists.

This was posted there on March 4, 2007:

What Do These Men Have In Common?
Sunday, March 4th, 2007
Gordon Lee Baum, Esq., Peter Brimelow, Filip DeWinter, Dr. David Duke, Paul Fromm, Peter Gemma, Joel LeFevre, Dr. Wayne Lutton, Dr. Kevin MacDonald, Michael Peroutka, Rev. Ted Pike, Larry Pratt, Dr. Paul Craig Roberts, Kyle Rogers, Dr. Tomislav Sunic, Jared Taylor and Frosty Wooldridge.
What do all of these men have in common? They’ve all been guests on The Political Cesspool during the last six weeks - and these are just a few of the luminaries we’ve had the honor of hosting! But, much more than just merely bringing you the most powerful voices of our movement, we actively battle and are unafraid to name the enemies of our shared Cause.
As we head into March the die is cast - The Political Cesspool is America’s #1 radio destination for paleoconservative, populist leaders. We continue to reach out across this nation, and indeed the world, to make available to you the most informative guests possible. Remember that all of our previously aired shows are available on demand, free of charge, at our website in the broadcast archives.
All we ask in return is that you stay tuned and continue to spread the word! Don’t forget to visit our website and register for our brand new online forum, where you can debate and discuss the issues with other Political Cesspool listeners from around the globe! The best is still to come!

Look up those names.

508 J.S.  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:22:51pm

re: #479 Charles

Yep. I'm listening (through the archives) to the 2/22/2007 broadcast -- they's a group of good ol' southern boyz from Tennessee...I'm waiting..and waiting for the Dewinter interview -- they're nattering on and on 'bout Mexicans...immigration...them dang furners..

509 WriterMom  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:23:26pm

re: #496 hous bin pharteen

And then, Stalin decided that instead of liberating Eastern Europe from the Nazis, he would swallow it up whole and make it the glorious Soviet Union. And then there was the Cold War, and then Ronald Reagan tore down The Wall with the help of the Iron Lady and the Pope. Europe lived semi-happily ever after because of the big fat Marshall Plan, and everyone got fat state jobs and the nanny state life. BUT, then there was the Yom Kippur war and Europe freaked out about oil. SO, they embarked on the Eurabia project-importing mass numbers of Muslim immigrants without any reciprocal arrangements TO the Arab/Muslim world. Then the yoots started acting up, and Europe-not just Israel started to get bombed by jihadis.

510 Charles  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:23:31pm

Link for the above post:

[Link: 64.233.169.104...]

511 Highrise  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:24:20pm

re: #494 TalkinKamel

And don't count on America coming to Europe's rescue yet again. Europe really is going to have to make some serious choices this time around and control its apparently insatiable appetite for backlash, drama, revolution, killing large numbers of its citizens, all-powerful governments and paramilitary organizations with really cool looking uniforms.

Thanks for saying this. I have become sickened at some people saying how America will *sit this out* until the 11th hour to help or that they delay helping europe like we are bad for waiting.

Like Elisabeth said against Rosie O'donnel on The View, DEFEND YOUR OWN THOUGHTS. In this case, Europe, defend your own bad choices and stop shoving the responsibility of backing you onto America. To do so is Political rape to your allies.

512 Render  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:25:22pm

re: #507 Charles

That's why I included the "guest list" in that link dump.

THEY
STINK,
R

513 mahatma coat  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:26:12pm

re: #496 hous bin pharteen
good try hbp.....but that still doesn't cover the willing moral lapse of allying ourselves(and arming) with the Soviet Union .It was repulsive at the time but fact is its doubtful the war could have been won without a second front

514 world turned upside down  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:27:55pm

I do not support amnesty for Nazi collaborators.

I have the utmost respect for the intellect and moral clarity displayed by the vast majority of LGFers.(and agree with them)

But...(I know, I know we quite rightly deride "buts")...but perhaps we are not cutting DeWinter his due slack. He does seem to denounce the raciest. He is rightly proud of his family's' Resistance of the Nazis. He would love a ethnis son in law...

Perhaps there is a translation problem, by "white" does he not mean "West"?

I am conflicted.

515 Killgore Trout  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:29:15pm

re: #508 J.S.

The interview starts about half way through the show.

516 hous bin pharteen  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:30:41pm

re: #505 mahatma coat

I don't see why those that are for cutting down on immigration and for stopping the welfare state but are not racists cant band together.
If there is a large number of people that feel that way, this should be possible. This to me is the only intelligent course.
If there is not a large number of people that are not racist but have these views, then, no, it is not possible. Then you have a major problem getting support in the US.

517 zuckerlilly  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:33:19pm

re: #317 Kenneth

re: #272 Charles

However, as for the thousands of Ukrainians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Russians, Volga Germans, Poles & etc who did actively collaborate with the Germans, if any of them survived, they most certainly did not receive any pardons.

Just more bullshit from Dewinter.

sorry, but exactly those people from the Baltics received pardons but not rehabilitation.

518 Render  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:35:40pm

re: #513 mahatma coat

...and that's about enough of that meme.

In 1942, there was still quite a bit of doubt about who would win the war.

By June of 1944, those doubts had been seriously muted.

Hindsight being 20/20, we can look back historically and see that American wartime production capacity was such that the US could have won the war, even if Britain had fallen and Operation Barbarossa not happened.

It just would have taken longer and cost more American lives.

SPARROWS
POINT,
R

519 AirForceWife  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:37:10pm

#485 mahatma coat 10/30/07 12:08:08 pm reply quote report 0

re: #481 Husky40

well well ...you've more courage than me ,but good point, as a european may I ask how LGF would like us to respond .Just how would a very polite pc anti jihad go anyway?Its a backlash .They tend to be disproportionate and unreasonable

And that only hurts their cause. An example is that there are legitimate issues regarding institutionalized racism in America that should be discussed and are not. Why? Because groups like the skinheads bring in their hate and pervert the issue. They turn it into racism when it isn't and the entire debate is derailed. Right now, the pro open borders crowd is just hoping for the perfect gift which would be that a racist organization would infiltrate the Minutemen.

The way to respond is to stay focused on ideology. It is never acceptable to judge people based on their race. It is necessary to judge people based on their belief systems and actions.

520 Sunlight  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:37:33pm

I'm listening to Michael Oren's Power, Faith, and Fantasy about U.S. involvement in the Middle East through history. The U.S. angle of the story is interesting - missionary activities morphing into education. The real story is that the descriptions are just like the things going on now. Sort of amazing. Well, I guess the real issue comes down to a country like Israel right in the middle not wanting to live like that.

Also, the Shire News Network, I think, came from the Silent Running blog, which used to have a bunch of really great (and fun) bloggers... I started reading them even before LGF... after 9/11 when I started reading a blog called Israeliguy and used his blogroll to find all these wonderful blogs.

And, Charles, I guess there needs to be a server just for saving stuff you find that seems to disappear as soon as you say anything about it. Don't give up on this - when I lived in Germany in the '70s, I was the only American in a ballet class where the lovely ballerinas talked in the dressing room about the joys of on-time buses under Hitler and wasn't it too bad he didn't finish off the Juden... So even if it has been camoflaged over the years, it never went away in swaths of the general public.

521 J.S.  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:38:23pm

re: #515 Killgore Trout

Yes, I've managed to listen to whole lotta junk thus far -- including "dem dang fur-ners jus' don't get it" "we'd be good guests if we'd be visitin', not make no demands on our hosts", "comes down to genetics, but it don't pay to go lookin' down that route", "ya can take the animal outta the jungle, but ya can't..." etc. The Dewinter interview is next.

522 mahatma coat  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:38:23pm

re: #506 bluebonnet
as the only comment so far from one who is actually there ,(though I've been reading of this for years on Brussels journal)I think your opinion bears more weight

523 hous bin pharteen  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:39:44pm

re: #513 mahatma coat

I think you forget something else.
We were fighting Japan by ourselves as well.
(and a very small amount of allies)

And my example is dead on.
We are talking about taking common cause with the likes of Stormfront.
Not the other way around.

The cold hard fact is, the vast majority of the US does not think their is a big threat from radical Islam. They need to be convinced.
Aligning with racist types and white supremacists guarantees, I said GUARANTEES, you will never get their support. You have just lost the battle.

524 Russkilitlover  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:40:30pm

re: #125 stvip

re: #103 cookielady

Don't push peaceful Muslims away by threatening the core of their being when talking about deporting all Muslims, or censoring the Koran, etc. ;

Yeah, because renaming them the RoP, insisting it's just a few fanaticas spoiling a beautiful faith, has worked so well to bring "peaceful" moderates out in the streets demanding and end to the fascification of their religion.

525 looking closely  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:41:51pm

re: #487 Peacekeeper

re: #482 looking closely

I don't want to hear David Duke's opinion on anything, I don't want to hear from people who would book him on their media. It's a "tell" . Seeing Duke's name on a guest list is like seeing that stripe on a skunk- stay away.


Fair enough. I have no disagreement with your assessment of Duke, nor with the persons who provide him a platform. But this isn't about Duke, its about Vlaams Belang, and DeWinter.

I'd still like to hear what was said on that show, if possible, if only because I think it could add another layer of clarity to the apparent under-the-surface racism here.

At this point, I don't think the contents of that program are going to make DeWinter look better or change my opinion about his, though they certainly could make him and his party look worse.

526 Ezekiel2517  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:43:31pm

hous bin pharteen Johhson is right!

527 hous bin pharteen  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:44:02pm

This is why you will never get support by aligning with white supremacists in Europe.

[Link: www.3ad.org...]

528 mahatma coat  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:45:26pm

re: #523 hous bin pharteen

I think the situation here with an unsustainable socialist economy and uncontrolled immigration combined with a deeply undemocratic EU makes for a much different situation than the US

529 Johnny Canuck  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:46:39pm

North Americans can't seem to get past their own culture, which has pretty much always been a "melting pot" mentality. But, for only a couple of hundred years at most.

Being a European, born just after the WW2, and having since the early 70s watched my country being taken over by an immigrant group that has no interest in being part of our societies. Muslim have, since the massive influx anyway, been demanding special privilege and rights. They have been given these "Perks" by successive, very left-wing Liberal governments at the expense of the locals.

When Muslims receive very lucrative monthly social benefits while getting preferential housing, employment (for the few that actually want to work) and more and more accommodation of their ever increasing demands. The rights and benefits of the local populations have been slowly eroded over the last 30yrs.

Complaining to the Government has yielded no results for many years now and folks are fed up. When your history is being re-written, when your long established culture is under attack, when your rights are being reduced and eroded, and when you become a second class citizen in a country where you have thousands of years of history, you have not much left to loose. You try and fight back with whatever means you can find.

And yes, that sometimes means you might get an extremist in your midsts, but he is better able to be controlled when you have influence over him then when he is also working against you.

Would you call "The Minutemen" racists for trying to protect your own southern border? Some do, but are they really? Europe is different then the U.S. in that we are attached by land to the countries that harbour the islamic supremest ideology. Our governments, nationally and through the EU having opened our borders to unfettered immigration from countries who's aim is to subjugate the entire continent.

We have been backed into a corner by the left in our societies, and have no other options left, but to fight with who ever we can at our sides and worry about sorting the rest out later, after we have saved our selves FIRST.

Nazism will never gain hold in Europe as it once did except maybe in the minds of a few. The virulent antisemitism in Europe today stems from left-wing academics, liberals, socialists and muslims, not from the average right of center. Are their extremists on the right? Most certainly, but in very minute numbers and with very, very limited (if any) influence.

While I despise anything Nazi, or supremacists, I think they can be best dissuaded if they are brought into the mix so their radicalism can negated and their ideology changed.

530 Peacekeeper  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:47:15pm

re: #525 looking closely

Fair enough. I have no disagreement with your assessment of Duke, nor with the persons who provide him a platform. But this isn't about Duke, its about Vlaams Belang, and DeWinter.

Gah! GAH! GGGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!
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531 hous bin pharteen  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:49:59pm

re: #528 mahatma coat

Fine.
I am sick to death arguing with fools trying to justify getting in bed with white supremacists.

You want the support of 5,000 racists by giving the finger to 200+ million possible supporters, knock your goddamn socks off.

532 Render  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:52:11pm

re: #529 Johnny Canuck

The violent anti-semitism of Europe's "past" comes from both sides of the political equation.

UNQUESTIONABLY,
R

533 Husky40  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:53:02pm

mahatma coat > Thanks, but it's useless, as you can see. Bluebonnet tried to put some sense into our friends, but I'm not sure many of them actually care.

# 484 hous bin pharteen > Who ever said anything about hating? If i'm not a fan of a multirasial society, that doesn't mean I am hater in disguise. The American society has been multirasial from the very beginning. European society has not and is not in most of it's parts so please quit the "OMG, you're all bloody racists!". We're not. We would just like our countries to stay the same. Apalling, right? Far-right extremists all over the place these days.

#486 Talking Kamel > I'm afraid you're talking with the wrong man. I have had my share of "battles" over the net and real-life with people who hate the United States and Israel and I did my best to defend them. Thanks for caring, but nazism is not coming back any time soon. If you;re still afraid of nazism in 2007, i'm sorry to tell you this but you're software needs and update. Fast.

#489 #493 WriterMom > I can't relax. As I have said before, I don't care about Vlaams Belang, it's a matter of principle. The reason I posted here is because my American friends have contempt for Europeans who are not fans of multicultural society and who see no reason for Europe to become a left-wing Utopia. I hate it when we get labeled as racists for absolutely nothing. Hey, guess what? I'm not a fan of Gay Parades, either. I believe people should keep their sexual orientation to themselves. How far-right am I? Nazional-sozialismus style?

There is no political party, by the way. Most parties don't even talk about this kind of stuff and you know why? Because they're afraid of being labelled fascists (even Mussollini's fascists weren't at all racists), far-right, racist scum and so on. Seems to me they're actually right. They would get labeled as racists and nazis.

Perhaps I'm a White Supremacist, too, because I wouldn't want my country to be flooded with Muslim Arabs, Morrocons, Turks and so on. Nice of you all to be so leftish and politically-correct.

# 498 Peacekeeper > That was really deep, friend.

WriterMom > You know what? I think I'll relax, after all i'm a European on an American blog fighting a losing battle in my attept to persuade my friends who live across the ocean of the right of european nations to no get swept away by the immigrant flood.

I wish you all a lovely day.

534 hous bin pharteen  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:53:34pm

re: #529 Johnny Canuck

Are you completely unaware of how Hitler came to power in Germany?


Nah, I am done.

My blood pressure does not need this.
I am outa here.

535 Sunlight  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:53:40pm

re: #529 Johnny Canuck

While I despise anything Nazi, or supremacists, I think they can be best dissuaded if they are brought into the mix so their radicalism can negated and their ideology changed.

No thanks. I for sure don't want to hang out with them. More Euros should ostracize them and fight them, not "bring them into the mix." They killed 6m Jews (and xx million of everybody else) for heaven's sake. What are you thinking!

536 mahatma coat  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:55:16pm

re: #531 hous bin pharteen
relax house ....I'm not getting into bed with white supremecists.....this accusation has been levelled at the vlaams belang for yrs. their previous incarnation was simply outlawed.....this is how bad democracy has become here.......see 506 bluebonnet

537 Russkilitlover  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 12:59:08pm

re: #511 Highrise

In this case, Europe, defend your own bad choices and stop shoving the responsibility of backing you onto America. To do so is Political rape to your allies.

Defend their bad choices with what? The formidable armies of France, Germany, Italy, Switzerland, or Belgium? Defend them with a de-armed populace with no history of self-reliance? Defend them with a governmental referendum? Some few Europeans seem to be starting to see a light far off in the distance - but it's a freight train.

Can America let Europe fail? Probably not and we'd get our asses dragged into yet another continental conflict. But if it comes to having to rebuild a torched continent again.....fuggedabboutit!

538 Lauraf  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 1:02:28pm

re: #524 Russkilitlover

re: #125 stvip


re: #103 cookielady

Don't push peaceful Muslims away by threatening the core of their being when talking about deporting all Muslims, or censoring the Koran, etc. ;


Yeah, because renaming them the RoP, insisting it's just a few fanaticas spoiling a beautiful faith, has worked so well to bring "peaceful" moderates out in the streets demanding and end to the fascification of their religion.

Remember the thread last spring about "Islam vs. Islamists", the PBS production that got canned in the final production stages because of the intervention of CAIR et al.? The entire point of the film was that the immoderates have stolen the stage through various means, including intimidation of the truly moderate voices in Islam. Like Zuhdi Jasser, American-born and a former Navy man who clearly understands democracy and loves his country.

539 Josephine  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 1:02:45pm

re: #507 Charles

I think it was J.S. who posted (in another thread) a link to a National Post article about Jared Taylor:

"How Not to Handle a Genteel Racist"

[Link: www.canada.com...]

540 J.S.  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 1:03:34pm

The Cesspool Politics is aptly names...and the sheer ignorance. One of the "interviewers" has no clue about parliamentary systems. He kept insisting that Dewinter's Vlaam Belang was the "most powerful" Belgium party...there was a lame attempt to correct him by the other interviewer (no doubt, to no avail). Pathetic, truly pathetic. "It's a party for Whites, ya know..gotta support 'em, ya know." Yeah, they's aligned with Le Pen, and the BNP, and Austria's Freedom party - they's on the right track...good tings happen' over der...yep.."

541 Hucbald  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 1:06:55pm

The nervousness in that guys voice was palpable. It was like he knew he was looking into a bright, bright light. The interviewer was brilliant, and his summary sheer genius. I'm sure a guy like that will land on his feet with no problem.

542 Highrise  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 1:10:37pm

re: #537 Russkilitlover

Europe should use their own blood, not ours.

No more and the guilt trips need to stop from the few I saw posted here the past 3 or so days. I can't recall who posted this stuff but I read it and just shook my head saying..what defeatism and manipulation/deflection onto a good ally of theirs.

Europe needs to grow some damn balls and stop sniping at people like Charles that are actually trying to give them info so they CAN try to stop the steamroller.

I have to honestly say, if europe continues down this dangerous path, I won't support helping them. I'm all for helping friends but there comes a time when it's not considered helping anymore, it's bailing out. And when it comes to bailing out, America should not be ridiculed for *waiting* while europe pays for the bed they laid.

BTW, I'd say that about America. I'd be kicking American's butt if this were going on..and in a way there are undertones of this going on and we have to nip it in the bud and a lot of Americans do work all the time to do so. This type of stuff will ALWAYS rear it's ugly head..and we need to play WHACK-A-MOLE when we see it. We speak up and condemn and say that is not OK to say, nagin, you can't say you want a chocolate New Orleans and not have it come back on you.......

543 Josephine  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 1:10:58pm

Is "paleoconservative" a secret code word for white supremacist?

I'm not being sarcastic; I've never heard the term until I read it in a couple of these threads.

(I don't rely on Wiki for anything except links.)

544 nachtwacht[deleted]  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 1:17:05pm
545 Render  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 1:17:29pm

[Link: www.tau.ac.il...]

LINK
DUMP,
R

546 mountb  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 1:20:12pm

So, if you take Dewinter at face value, the Flemish nationalist movement calculated that by allying themselves with the Nazis they would up the odds on realizing their nationalist aspirations ... and instead (surprise) found themselves enslaved in German forced labor camps.

It sorta makes Charles' point, no?

547 Dead Sea Squirrel  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 1:22:25pm

re: #466 Speak softly

re: #447 Dead Sea Squirrel

This is why I tend to give a lot of slack to W and others who speak of a benign Islam, however nauseating it is to the typical lizard. We have to pretend it exists, because not all of the billion Muslims are going to Christianize or Jeffersonian-Secularize after the coming debacle (which we will win). Some sort of benign Islam will have to be offered so that they can claim it, and claim that really, it was, y'know, what they always believed, and thus save face.
I cannot tell you how much I wish I shared your optimism. I'm not at all sure we'll win but I'm very sure that even if we do, Muslims are not going to accept "some sort of benign Islam" that is offered (by whom?). They may stop fighting, and terrorism may fall out of favor, but they will always believe there is no God but God, that Mohamed is his prophet, that the Koran is the literal word of God and cannot be interpreted, and that when they regain their strength the war will resume.

Muslims will indeed accept a "benign Islam" if the alternative is scorn and shame. The re-articulation of the faith will have to come from Islamic authorities, again, motivated by the shame of holding to what is universally regarded as a despicable creed (like being a Nazi right after WW2), if they do not re-articulate it. That's where the humiliating defeat buzz spoke of comes in. After the Jihad has been humiliated, you unapologetically blame them for what happened and you shame them into either reinterpreting their creed or into abandoning it (their choice).

As for "the Koran is the literal word of God and cannot be interpreted," that doesn't even make sense. All texts must be interpreted. Being the literal word of God doesn't change that in the slightest. I get a little tired of this argument. No amount of insistence that a text is literally the word of God and not subject to change or alteration has any effect on the need for interpretation, or for the possibility of multiple interpretations.

548 mahatma coat  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 1:24:47pm

another view........[Link: www.brusselsjournal.com...]

549 ContraJihadi  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 1:27:18pm

re: #537 Russkilitlover

No, I don't think America will be pulling Europe's bacon out of the fire in the next shooting war. Our Left doesn't believe in the exercise of military power, our Right believes the time has come for Europeans either to grow a pair or stew in their own multiculturalist juices, and the rest just want to keep on making money and otherwise pursuing happiness.

550 J.S.  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 1:28:48pm

re: #543 Josephine

It's a movement in the United States which garners a lot of support from the deep South (red necks?) -- they don't like "foreigners"; in terms of U.S. foreign policy, they're isolationists, don't like wars, don't like giving out foreign aid monies (in the past they did have some influence on conservative politics -- to keep the U.S. out of WWII, etc.), they don't like Europeans; they tend to like Pat Buchanan (who's generally thought of as an antisemite.) They also figure they're at war with the "neo-cons" (whoever that is..."neo-cons" can also be a code word for "Jooooz") Does that clear things up? or..maybe not so much...

551 looking closely  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 1:29:04pm

re: #510 Charles

Link for the above post:

[Link: 64.233.169.104...]


Thanks Charles.

Pretty damning company in that cesspool, that's for sure.
Apparently the guy has a long history of hanging out with known racists and Jew-haters.

Here's a must-read interview of DeWinter from Israeli newspaper HaAretz. Best of all, its posted on his own Website:


Members of the Flemish nationalist movement established Vlaams Blok in the late 1970s. Many members of this movement had openly collaborated with the Nazi regime during World War II. "My view of the party has not changed," says Marinower during an interview at his Antwerp office. "The founders of the party were collaborators, anti-Semites and racists." And not much has changed since then, he adds.

Prof. Mude thinks the party is not officially anti-Semitic because there are no anti-Semitic references in its official literature, which he says he studies carefully. However, he notes, there is indeed anti-Semitism among its grass-roots activists. "Dewinter has no problem associating with anti-Semites," he explains. "And you can almost always find someone anti-Semitic around him. The reason is that he is not philo-Semitic; he’s philo-Flemish. His goal is to take over Antwerp and act on behalf of the Flemish. The question of whether this is good for the Jews does not interest him."

Brinckman, however, is certain that Dewinter himself "harbors anti-Semitic feelings. He always associates with anti-Semitic circles and it is impossible that he changed his mind. He now needs to maneuver between his voters, many of whom are very extremist, and the public arena, which demands that he demonstrate moderation.

...

Dewinter: "Many Flemish nationalists collaborated during the war because they thought - and now it is clear that they were wrong - that this would help them achieve independence for Flanders. This is the whole story. The overwhelming majority were not Nazis. They collaborated in order to attain independence and because the Church called upon them to go out and fight the Communists - something that Western Europe continued to do for 50 years. Now, in 2005, it is easy to say: `The collaboration was a mistake.’ The collaboration did not help our country at all; we just became a vassal state of Germany. At the time, it was logical, because of the Church, because of communism. But this has no connection with Nazism."
"


So this also explains why amnesty for Nazi collaborators is an important issue for him. (I am not saying the explanation justifies it).

552 Johnny Canuck  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 1:29:46pm

Dead Sea Squirrel

All texts must be interpreted. Being the literal word of God doesn't change that in the slightest. I get a little tired of this argument.

While I agree, that argument only makes sense to a free-thinking individual. If you have been brought up from birth and had this ideology literally beaten into you, you might not be (mentally) able to "interpret it" as it goes against everything you have ever been taught/brainwashed into thinking. The more I learn about this "cult" the more that (repeating the mantra 5 X a day) brainwashing (and keeping your population ignorant) seems to be a major part of this ideology. Just an idea to postulate.

553 Yank in the EU  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 1:30:02pm

re: #548 mahatma coat

Notice the endorsement of the BNP and racial ideology in that piece?

554 Render  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 1:31:58pm

re: #545 Render

[Link: www.tau.ac.il...]

"While, publicly, the VB has been striving to pass itself off as a respectable party, it remains quietly faithful to its ideological heritage. Since 1989 the VB has been the main European ally of the French FN, and in 1998 their political ties were intensified. Most of the bloc's leaders (Philip Claeys, Filip De Man, Johan Demol, Filip Dewinter, Karel Dillen, Roeland Raes, Franck Van Hecke, and others) were involved in the lectures given by the Brussels' mini-group known as Bruxelles-Identité-Sécurité (BIS), or worked on its propaganda magazine together with members of the French FN national leadership
before that party split in December 1998.
The BIS was set up in 1994 by the former heads of the Parti des forces
nouvelles (PFN), a French-speaking neo-Nazi and revisionist mini-group, which was active in the 1970s and 1980s. It was the PFN which handled the French Holocaust denier Robert Faurisson's security and lecture arrangements in Brussels. Since then, the BIS has unconditionally supported the VB and called on French-speaking Brussels' residents to vote for it."

FROM
TEL
AVIV,
R

555 filetandrelease  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 1:35:11pm

re: #444 hous bin pharteen

And how do you convince people you are not racist that just hate Muslims?
By associating with people who actually are?

I have been jumping around reading a lot of different blogs and therefor opinions on this issue. And consequently my head spins with emotion clouded with confusion.

Then I read a simple concise explicitly clear comment like the one above and the clouds lift.

556 Dead Sea Squirrel  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 1:38:53pm

re: #552 Johnny Canuck

Dead Sea Squirrel

All texts must be interpreted. Being the literal word of God doesn't change that in the slightest. I get a little tired of this argument.
While I agree, that argument only makes sense to a free-thinking individual. If you have been brought up from birth and had this ideology literally beaten into you, you might not be (mentally) able to "interpret it" as it goes against everything you have ever been taught/brainwashed into thinking. The more I learn about this "cult" the more that (repeating the mantra 5 X a day) brainwashing (and keeping your population ignorant) seems to be a major part of this ideology. Just an idea to postulate.

That's why it is going to take a major shattering, followed by the heavy pressure of shame, in order to get them to take a new look.

557 filetandrelease  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 1:44:08pm

re: #550 J.S.

It's a movement in the United States which garners a lot of support from the deep South (red necks?)

Ummm, careful there.

558 mahatma coat  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 1:48:35pm

re: #555 filetandrelease
sure this has been said a million times here before but disliking Islam isn't racist .....its not a race it a "religion"(although thats a matter of opinion)

559 Yank in the EU  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 1:48:43pm

re: #506 bluebonnet

Actually I have lived in Flanders for about 7 years and do right now. I have observed Vlaams Blok and Belang "acties" and I have talked numerous times to representatives of the VB. I think there are no doubt people in the VB now who reject racism and the neo-Nazis -- and desire to reform their party, but obviously this was not the case in the 1990's, where there was an open platform of white nationalism and fierce antogonism against all non-white immigrants. Look also at all the extremely clear statements by Dewinter about racial ideology and also the VB's still honoring the Nazi collaborators, who formed the roots of their current party. Look at the VB's and Dewinter's open support for the BNP, the NPD, Le Pen and Haider. That goes on today, this alliance with groups who are openly are antisemitic, neo-Nazi and white supremacist; meanwhile the moderate members of the VB, who at one point I enthusiastically endorsed, are silent about all of this. Belien's bizarre denials that the roots of the VB are in Nazi collaborators are directly contradicted by Dewinter's explicit statements on the issue. There is also his distortions of what LGF has said and insults directed at LGF, which raise further concerns.

560 mahatma coat  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 1:51:01pm

re: #553 Yank in the EU

sure did ,and I know several BNP supporters......knitting cap wearing older middle class people tired of their views being ignored by David Cameron

561 Charles  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 1:51:57pm

re: #560 mahatma coat

re: #553 Yank in the EU

sure did ,and I know several BNP supporters......knitting cap wearing older middle class people tired of their views being ignored by David Cameron

Are you a BNP supporter?

562 Johnny Canuck  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 1:52:45pm

re: #556 Dead Sea Squirrel

That's why it is going to take a major shattering, followed by the heavy pressure of shame, in order to get them to take a new look.

I'd like to think that would work on them but I have my doubts. It would work on you or I because we have the ability of free thought, they do not, and never have in their entire history. It is against everything they have stood, and been taught for 1400 yrs. I fear that the only way to change it is to crush it first and then rebuild it. You can't reason with the blindly unreasonable.

563 AirForceWife  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 1:55:36pm

#550 J.S. 10/30/07 1:28:48 pm reply quote report 0

re: #543 Josephine

It's a movement in the United States which garners a lot of support from the deep South (red necks?) --

There are "rednecks" in every state of this nation and they don't fit the profile you described. If southern men stopped volunteering for military service, we would need the draft in a hurry. Way to alienate patriotic Americans though because maybe some don't buy into the nation buidling strategy for winning against our enemies the way this administration does. I'm convinced more every day that Americans will never unite against a foreign enemy. We are our own worst enemy.

564 mahatma coat  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 1:56:03pm

re: #561 Charles

to tell the truth I don't know enough about them to say.......Although I do know
alot of British ( I'm in Ireland )voters are becoming in creasingly frustrated by the mainstream uniformly left/socialist outlook........please don't start thinking I'm some skinhead,couldn't be further from the truth

565 Russkilitlover  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 1:57:08pm

re: #542 Highrise

I agree in principle. However, imagine a disintegrated Europe now in control of a caliphate, if you will, with European nuclear technology, weaponry, aircraft, and easy access to our shores. I do believe that Americans would spill blood to avoid that outcome. We would not have a choice.

566 Josephine  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 1:59:53pm

re: #550 J.S.

Thank you, J.S.

567 mahatma coat  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 2:00:22pm

re: #561 Charles

just realized that article was critical of your stance on that issue.I trust you have no problem with honest differences of opinion,I believe a look at my comment history wouldn't reveal anything too looney....impaired maybe ,looney no

568 jaunte  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 2:02:18pm

I've heard a lot of discussion on this and other threads blaming the leftist political parties in Europe for allowing muslim immigrants in to take advantage of state-provided benefits. The leftist political class won't listen, they suppress the convervative voice, they own the media, etc.
Is this a side effect, or a natural result, of allowing the US taxpayer to fund the military defense of Europe, so that Europeans could enjoy a relaxing 'butter-not-guns' lifestyle, and get comfortable with a soft socialist police state?
Who will take responsibility for the left-leaning politics of Europa?

569 mahatma coat  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 2:04:32pm

re: #568 jaunte

well firstly the (increasingly frustrated ) citizens of Europe.........then ,I'm ashamed to say ,the US

570 Josephine  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 2:07:01pm

re: #563 AirForceWife

Just to clarify, I didn't use that term.

571 Dead Sea Squirrel  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 2:10:01pm

It is one thing to sympathize with someone who had made a bad choice in their frustration. It is quite another to follow him in making that same bad choice.

572 mahatma coat  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 2:10:02pm

re: #563 AirForceWife
too true .....and the last thing we need at this point is bickering sub-categories in the anti jihad

573 Lauraf  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 2:14:55pm

re: #568 jaunte

I've heard a lot of discussion on this and other threads blaming the leftist political parties in Europe for allowing muslim immigrants in to take advantage of state-provided benefits. The leftist political class won't listen, they suppress the convervative voice, they own the media, etc.
Is this a side effect, or a natural result, of allowing the US taxpayer to fund the military defense of Europe, so that Europeans could enjoy a relaxing 'butter-not-guns' lifestyle, and get comfortable with a soft socialist police state?
Who will take responsibility for the left-leaning politics of Europa?

How about something radically new and different, like the voters of Europa?

574 Lauraf  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 2:16:35pm

re: #569 mahatma coat

re: #568 jaunte

well firstly the (increasingly frustrated ) citizens of Europe.........then ,I'm ashamed to say ,the US

This is just too much. Put the blame where it belongs. It's high time Europeans grew up and took responsibility for their own voting!

575 Charles  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 2:18:16pm

re: #572 mahatma coat

re: #563 AirForceWife
too true .....and the last thing we need at this point is bickering sub-categories in the anti jihad

Wrong. The last thing we need at this point is to accept as allies parties like the BNP and the Vlaams Belang and the Sweden Democrats.

576 mahatma coat  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 2:18:26pm

re: #573 Lauraf
and who do we vote for ?The governing party here (fianna Faill)is considered right wing but actually exists to the left of the dems ....the leader of the uk conservatives is trying to out treehug the Goracle

577 Charles  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 2:19:41pm

re: #567 mahatma coat

re: #561 Charles

just realized that article was critical of your stance on that issue.I trust you have no problem with honest differences of opinion,I believe a look at my comment history wouldn't reveal anything too looney....impaired maybe ,looney no

"Honest differences of opinion?" You mean saying that I "don't have the intellect" to understand the subtleties of European race hatred? That kind of "honest difference?"

578 Yank in the EU  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 2:20:56pm
How about something radically new and different, like the voters of Europa?

I like it.

Hey mahatma, what about you start a new party?

Get all of these frustrated voters and citizens in Europa together, but don't knock on the doors of the Jew-haters, Holocaust deniers, NPDers in Germany and such...

579 jumpininhere  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 2:23:35pm

A brilliant interview. I didn't hear the F word one time. We are witnessing the pendulum effect in Europe as we have so many time in the past. The only difference is that the pendulum is swinging quite rapidly between the two extremes at present. Let us all hope that it comes to rest in a position that will not be a discredit to the entire human race. This time.

580 mahatma coat  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 2:23:37pm

re: #575 Charles

I think we're already fighting a crippling rear guard action......and there is an historical precedent for sleazy yet expedient bedfellows.If the mainstream parties start to see opinion heading in the direction of the extremists(since voters are not being presented with a choice)they may start to see that not everyone suppports the view presented by the MSM
ps an honour to argue with you

581 J.S.  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 2:27:14pm

re: #563 AirForceWife

The term "red neck" is (I know) controversial -- I only used the term as a form of short-hand (for a quick form of explanation -- since, I suppose, most people in North America know the stereotype...my dictionary defines it as "an uneducated farm laborer...") My apologies if I have annoyed any patriotic Americans out there -- especially any Southerners who're in the military...You have my deepest respect/gratitude/admiration and appreciation. And, I am fully aware that the American military is bearing the brunt (and carrying the heaviest load) in keeping all of us yo-yos back home safe and free.

582 Piglet-U93  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 2:30:11pm

re: #182 stvip

re: #154 bulwrk

4 years and 2,600,000 dead japanese

I never suggested the war against Islamofascism has to be pretty.
I do strongly disagree with people who think "Islamofascism" is a roundabout way to spell "Islam".
So yes, the Koran is full of passages allowing violence. It's also full of passages prohibiting violence. The question is - what kind of fatwas will be issued, and who will listen to which fatwas, etc.
If there is a will to be peaceful, the Koran can implemented peacefully. The problem isn't specifically the Koran, it is the lack of will to coexist and tolerate, and the existence of the will for violence and destruction. Religious justification can come later.

You are apparently unaware of the "Law of Abrogation" where most of the peaceful verses have been made NULL and VOID (primarily by the verse of the sword). While they are still "the word of Allah" and must remain in the Qur'an. The peaceful verses are not to be followed. You need to do more research.

583 Orde  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 2:31:40pm

re: #543 Josephine

Is "paleoconservative" a secret code word for white supremacist?

I'm not being sarcastic; I've never heard the term until I read it in a couple of these threads.

(I don't rely on Wiki for anything except links.)

"Paleoconservative" often conjures up images of Pat Buchanan who has or has had connections with and support from white supremacists. For this reason alone I never use that word, even though there's much very more to the "paleoconservative"-neoconservative distinction than that.

584 billhedrick  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 2:33:31pm

One of the social changes that the US has done better than Europe (if for no other reason than we had more experience with it) is assimilation of cultures. American culture of today is not the same as it was in 1907 or 1987 for that matter. We change and grow, I think it may be because America is an immigrant society by nature. France to stay France cannot change the way America does. Beef Stew is American as are Tacos. Le Big Mac is not French and can't be.

This is one reason why "Fascism is always falling on America and landing in Europe" Europe purges, America embraces.

585 Lauraf  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 2:33:39pm

re: #576 mahatma coat

re: #573 Lauraf
and who do we vote for ?The governing party here (fianna Faill)is considered right wing but actually exists to the left of the dems ....the leader of the uk conservatives is trying to out treehug the Goracle

What is stopping like-minded people from forming a new party? Or a lobbying group to try to push politicians to wake up?

586 Render  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 2:33:46pm

[Link: www.tau.ac.il...]

"Political Parties of the Extreme Right

Since its success in the 1991 Belgian legislative elections, the parliamentary far right (Vlaams Blok and Front national) has moderated its tone considerably on controversial topics such as antisemitism. This restraint is opportunistic, the goal being to acquire a certain patina of respectability, and for the Vlaams Blok (VB) in particular, to attract part of the “Jewish vote” in the city of Antwerp. Thus, for the last few years, VB local leader Filip Dewinter has indicated solidarity with the Jewish community when it incurs antisemitic attacks. Moreover, although a marginal phenomenon, some members of the Jewish community, in the face of such attacks perpetrated by some groups among the North African community (see below), have decided to support extreme right parties.

Like many VB leaders, Dewinter graduated from organizations known specifically for their antisemitism, such as the Nationalistisch Student Verbond (NSV). In tracts issued by the VB in the 1990s, the Jewish community was depicted as controlling the country through its hold of financial institutions. Ties still exist between the VB and small neo-fascist and antisemitic groups (see below)."

BLACK
WALL,
R

587 mahatma coat  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 2:35:25pm

re: #577 Charles

whew, surprised I'm talking about the results of completely uncontrolled immigration and unsustainable economic policies ......no racism here boyo....is the author of that article right to the extent we must walk on eggshells here at lgf

588 yochanan  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 2:35:56pm

interesting that he would 'fall on his petard' over the issue of amnesty for Nazi collaborators this is a major problem for me it shows what some are really worried about. I worry about this as well because if he was smart he would never raise the issue. It sort of lets the genie out of the bottle.

since most of them would be at the least in there middle 80's or older I just don't get it unless the reason is to rehabilitate some of the ideas of some of the Flemish nationalists sort of like how the Croats sometimes bring out the utashi fascist ideology when it suits them and sweep it under the rug when non Croats are in the room. Just like I have to vote in the Croat cultural center and see photo's and paintings of things i am sure are a problem for this Jew.

If he just stuck to euro cultural values i would really want a definition of those values, I oppose multi-culturalism as well as islamization of our country as well.

He has to understand what the past is and why that is a problem.

euro jews and other anti jihadist might have to work with this party but we will not do it with rose colored glasses.

589 billhedrick  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 2:37:11pm

Also American conservatives are Different than European conservatives. At least on the extreme. American Far right wingers are isolationists. They will move to the remotest spot they can find and live alone. Europeans will march into Poland.

590 stvip  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 2:38:09pm

Daniel Pipes: Distinguishing between Islam and Islamism
[Link: www.danielpipes.org...]

Apostasy and Islam (haven't read through all of this, but it seems interesting and relevant):
[Link: apostasyandislam.blogspot.com...]

591 TalkinKamel  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 2:39:16pm

#509 WriterMom

Good summing up of recent history.

#511 Highrise

Thanks!

{HIghrise}

#505 Mahatma Coat

The really ugly truth is that, while it may not be in America's interests to let Europe fall to the jihadis, has it ever occurred to you that, this time, for one reason or another, we might not be able to come to your rescue?

Maybe we'll b fighting hard on another front, and just won't be able to spare the funds and troops. At the rate Europeans are NOT reproducing, maybe we'll decide to cut our losses in Europe, since there won't be any Europeans left to defend in a few more generations anyway. Or, maybe we'll have to invade, and it will be a long, bloody, awful war in which both Europeans and jihadis get killed, and no cushy Marshal Plan afterwards.

As for Stalin---I'm glad you brought him up! I think WriterMom has very nicely summed up the reason for our alliance with him during WWII; I'd just like to add my 2-cents' worth;

Stalin was sold to Americans (and the Left here has continued to sell Communism to us) as a noble champion against Facism, our best buddy pal in the good fight. Of course, he screwed us over. Now we're being sold Vlaams Belang as our new, best buddy pal, in fighting the good fight. Can you see why we might be a bit suspicious of this? And remember, before Stalin allied with the US, he was Hitler's best buddy pal in the good fight. . . until Hitler screwed him over. . . Nazis do not make trustworthy allies.

#533 Husky40

Yeah, I am still scared of Nazi types. It wasn't so long ago that we were all being assured that we had nothing to worry about from Islam, that the bad old days of the Crusades were over, the Saudis were our friends, blah, blah, blah. . .

I worry about any tyranny.

592 mahatma coat  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 2:39:42pm

re: #577 Charles
"don't have the intellect "?I presume its a quotation since its in quotation marks ........where on earth did that come from?Certainly not me and I resent the implication that it did .Please explain.I'm not in the business of throwing around insults

593 Killgore Trout  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 2:42:03pm

re: #592 mahatma coat

Did you read the article you linked to?

594 mahatma coat  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 2:43:43pm

re: #593 Killgore Trout

yes and realized my mistake two seconds after hitting post ........Sorry Charles

595 Render  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 2:44:12pm

[Link: www.adl.org...]

"Belgium

Flemish Interest

The Flemish Interest party was formed in 2004 after its precursor, the Flemish Bloc, was declared a racist organization in Belgium's highest court. The party has supplied three MEPs to ITS - Philip Claeys, Koenraad Dillen and Frank Vanhecke. It campaigns for the independence of Flanders, the Dutch-speaking part of Belgium, and is deeply hostile to immigrants and minorities. Under the leadership of Filip Dewinter, the party has tried to court Jewish voters by ratcheting up its anti-Muslim rhetoric. However, its participation in the ITS suggests that its traditional anti-Semitism has not been discarded.

In 2005, Claeys abstained on a European Parliament resolution paying homage to the victims of the Nazis and condemning Holocaust denial. Dillen is well-known as a supporter of the late Leon Degrelle, a notorious Belgian Nazi who was a decorated officer in the Waffen SS and later became a prominent Holocaust denier. In 2002, Vanhecke was one of a group of European far-right leaders who met at the home of the then Austrian Freedom Party leader, Joerg Haider, to discuss cooperation in the European Parliament."

RELENTLESS,
R

596 Lauraf  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 2:44:24pm

re: #587 mahatma coat

re: #577 Charles

whew, surprised I'm talking about the results of completely uncontrolled immigration and unsustainable economic policies ......no racism here boyo....is the author of that article right to the extent we must walk on eggshells here at lgf

If you genuinely think that only Europeans can understand the current mess in Europe, then you must also believe that only Europeans can resolve it. For the sake of argument, I'll assume that the premise is not condescending (and a way to put down those who disagree with you). So why try to find allies outside Europe? If we are incapable of understanding, how can we possibly help?

597 mahatma coat  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 2:45:01pm

didn't realize ones skin got thinner as blood alcohol level went up

598 Lauraf  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 2:48:22pm

re: #597 mahatma coat

didn't realize ones skin got thinner as blood alcohol level went up

You're cruising, eh?

599 Render  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 2:49:04pm

[Link: www.tau.ac.il...]

"Extreme Right Political Parties

Despite its demonstrations of solidarity with the Jewish community and with Israel since the creation of the AEL, and its more moderate tone in relation to the Holocaust and the Jews in general , the Vlaams Beland (VB; formerly Vlaams Blok – see ASW 2004), headed by Filip Dewinter, still retains ties with small neo-fascist and antisemitic groups, such as Voorpost and Were Di (see ASW 2004)."

ALL
MOVING
PARTS,
R

600 mahatma coat  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 2:51:02pm

re: #596 Lauraf

agree completely and would like nothing better than for us to deal with this ourselves......but as I've said socialism is truth here ......getting tired of being the token right winger at parties listening to otherwise rational people praise George Galloway......embarassingly enough I'll be surprised if we can deal with this ourselves........in low moments I think we deserve our fate

601 mahatma coat  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 2:52:48pm

re: #598 Lauraf
having a long wknd and somewhat manic being online for the first time since mid-July

602 AirForceWife  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 2:53:58pm

#570 Josephine 10/30/07 2:07:01 pm reply quote report 0

re: #563 AirForceWife

Just to clarify, I didn't use that term.

No....I know you didn't.

603 Husky40  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 2:57:45pm

Mahatma, it's useless. If our friends think they're better than thou, there's simply no point in continuing this any further. I am now convinced that many of our American friends will keep on lamenting on how Europe is going down the drain, at the same time reminding us that they're not gonna help us this time and that if we do anything against the enemies from within we are nazis.

Oh, forgot to mention: moronic. We're moronic and if we say that for Europe the problem is more than just religion-related, we're White Supremacists.

PC runs the western world now, mahatma.

604 Jimmah  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 2:59:56pm

re: #533 Husky40

The American society has been multirasial from the very beginning. European society has not and is not in most of it's parts so please quit the "OMG, you're all bloody racists!". We're not. We would just like our countries to stay the same.

Bollocks. European society is multiracial. Ever been to Paris, Berlin, Barcelona, Rome? Ever been to London, or the Midlands, or the North - in fact - you ever been to England? The vast majority of people in Britain at any rate have no problem accepting this, even though a growing number of them have a problem with Islamism, they do not confuse this with race, but there is a small element for whom race really is a problem. You often find them appearing on american blogs giving props of one sort or another to the BNP while trying to give the impression that they speak for the British people as a whole. Sad, really.

605 mahatma coat  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 2:59:59pm

re: #603 Husky40
ye can hardly blame them for being a bit reticent ......they've dug us out twice only to have the french piss on them

606 mahatma coat  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 3:03:54pm

re: #604 Jimmah
while that is true ,as a blow in here ( I grew up in Canada)there is certainly a much greater sense of nationality here and it has nothing to do with pigmentation

607 Orde  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 3:06:20pm

re: #590 stvip

Daniel Pipes: Distinguishing between Islam and Islamism
[Link: www.danielpipes.org...]

Apostasy and Islam (haven't read through all of this, but it seems interesting and relevant):
[Link: apostasyandislam.blogspot.com...]

Personal recommendation, go to the sources themselves, 3 things: (1) a quran (Yusuf Ali's or Pickthall's are fair enough, but even others like Ahmed Ali or Dawood will work, and when questioning translations you can use quranbrowser.com), (2) access to Hadith, available online (purchasing the many volumes is impractical), and (3) The Life of Muhammad (Ibn Ishaq's authoritative bio of Muhammad)

To see how these 3 sources of Islamic texts are integrated and to be able to make it all fit together in an organized way, before or along with the above texts, I recommend An_Abridged_Koran, which is an inexpensive chronological Quran with repetitions of redundant stories deleted and Hadith and Sira background interjected (with citations) to give the context to the randomness of the Quran.

608 jeppo[deleted]  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 3:07:07pm
609 mahatma coat  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 3:07:22pm

ok maybe a bit.......but it doesn't strike me as racism ,more prejudice .I mean for a whole millenium no one in there right mind emigrated to Ireland.People here simply (its changing rapidly)just don't understand ferners and there strange ways

610 mahatma coat  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 3:09:56pm

damn....there /their

611 AirForceWife  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 3:10:21pm

#581 J.S. 10/30/07 2:27:14 pm reply quote report 0

re: #563 AirForceWife

The term "red neck" is (I know) controversial -- I only used the term as a form of short-hand (for a quick form of explanation -- since, I suppose, most people in North America know the stereotype...my dictionary defines it as "an uneducated farm laborer...") My apologies if I have annoyed any patriotic Americans out there -- especially any Southerners who're in the military...You have my deepest respect/gratitude/admiration and appreciation. And, I am fully aware that the American military is bearing the brunt (and carrying the heaviest load) in keeping all of us yo-yos back home safe and free.

No hard feelings. Thanks for the clarification. I just have had a lot of friends in my life that are kind of rednecks. I think the term has a negative connotation so I took offense but I accept your explanation.

612 mahatma coat  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 3:11:19pm

re: #608 jeppo

I'd love to hear fjordmans views on this thread .He a regular contributer to brussels journal

613 Yank in the EU  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 3:11:28pm

re: #603 Husky40

There may be some vindictive individuals who are not supportive of Europe due to historical reasons (which doesn't make sense to me in any way given that there are obviously a lot of decent folks here), but it is just not true that Europe's American friends are not genuinely interested in helping and fighting the same righteous fight. Taking up the mantle of the victim, here, is the wrong way to go about it. On the contrary, there are quite legitimate concerns about joining ranks with Dewinter, the NPD, Le pen, etc.

I have people I love and care for in Europe. I've attended anti-Islamization events and sent out hundreds of article to friends in Europe trying to get them to wake up from this socialist-multiculti daydream. I don't intend to give up on my best buddy's childen's future and so forth. But, the truth is that white nationalism and racial ideology have had a limited resurgence and parties like the VB, the BNP and the NPD are at the heart of this. We have to deal with reality here -- it is an extremely unwise strategy to court the actual people who defend this evil. It's not in any way anti-European to take that position.

614 Husky40  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 3:12:07pm

# 604 Jimmah > You know what's even more sad? Denying the de-europenization of Europe. Now, if you'll excuse me, I think i'll take my leave. Have fun in the PC world of *see no evil*.

# 605 mahatma > Oh, but I can since they don't even bother trying to understand.

615 Josephine  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 3:13:30pm

re: #583 Orde

Thank you, Orde.

616 mahatma coat  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 3:15:02pm

re: #613 Yank in the EU

is there any hope these parties can be steered away from the fringe?
By the way I don't believe VB=BNP

617 jumpininhere  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 3:16:24pm

Europe has been the abattoir of the human race. Wake up! Get it right this time!

618 mean Gene  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 3:17:28pm

Way back at 9:30 AM (comment 150) I pointed out hos Reuters was trolling through these threads looking for something to hang LGF with.
They had onle 4 visits in 2 days then, now it's up to 8.
If they'd have found a smoking gun they'd be done here, but it is obvious that they haven't.
So they're still looking.
I've been reading all these threads and am so proud of my fellow lizards.
BEAM!

619 unclassifiable  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 3:25:39pm

I have read several post from our European members that their governments do not respond to the multi-cultural and Islamofascist threat.

Forgive me but I presumed that most of you folks live in a republic.

Quite simply you want to achieve a reversal of fortune that you cannot (seemingly) be able to achieve through the ballot box.

Even if the banning of the old Vlaams Block was done by the government, the assumption was that it was done by a majority vote on some level at some instance of the legislative process.

If VB is gaining in popularity then it is just a matter of time, procreation, and indoctrination before it succeeds.

To me it is very sinister when someone promotes the idea that changes must be affected outside the normal political process when that process is republican in nature. IMHO this is what the on ramp to the totalitarian autobahn looks like.

620 Husky40  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 3:26:43pm

I'll have to answer this.

# 613 Yank in the EU > I'm not eager to take the mantle of the victim, but I am sick and tired of reading the same - pardon my language, but... - crap on the blog i've been visiting for quite some time. I'm not denying that there may be lunatics around, but this "we're so better than you white power loons" is just not my kind of argument, Yank in the EU. At this point, i'm not convinced that VB is the Flemish BNP and even if it is, keep in mind two words: national identity. It's not a myth.

In the end, I thank you for your kind words. Don't abandon the fight, Yank. We're not all lost.

621 Yank in the EU  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 3:27:28pm

re: #616 mahatma coat

The root of much of this is the amazing weakness of the right wing in general among the population, especially in lowland countries. How did everyone become so left-leaning? It's weird. I trace that weakness to many folks rejecting the ideology of white nationalism that they percieve (correctly) in the far-right, so part of it is that there is a grain of truth in all the totalitarian efforts to tar the right. Sarkozy, Merkl, and these types can make these changes occur, but they need to have support from the mainstream right-leaning people who demand changes. The change has to come from the people who demand a more classical liberal and a legitimate, righteous (not white nationalist) coalition against radical Islam and multiculti immigration policies. The people on the right have to get politically active.

And yes, the BNP is more open at least about its white nationalist ideology, and evil stuff such as Holocaust denal.

622 Lauraf  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 3:28:05pm

re: #603 Husky40

Mahatma, it's useless. If our friends think they're better than thou, there's simply no point in continuing this any further. I am now convinced that many of our American friends will keep on lamenting on how Europe is going down the drain, at the same time reminding us that they're not gonna help us this time and that if we do anything against the enemies from within we are nazis.

Oh, forgot to mention: moronic. We're moronic and if we say that for Europe the problem is more than just religion-related, we're White Supremacists.

PC runs the western world now, mahatma.

Please don't tell me that you think that anyone who isn't a nazi, or willing to align with nazis, is PC.

Here's the issue as I see it -- if the majority of Europeans opposing Islamofascism are nazis, Europe IS lost. Trading one kind of fascism for another is no victory.

623 Charles  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 3:32:42pm

re: #608 jeppo

Although the Vlaams Belang is often dismissed as a fringe movement, this is not at all the case. The VB is already one of the largest political parties in Belgium and is well on its way to being number one. Hundreds of thousands of people vote VB in every election.

Who are these voters? Racists? Fascists? There's no question that a minuscule fraction of their vote comes from white supremacists and anti-Semites, but the overwhelming majority of VB supporters are simply Flemish nationalists utterly determined to prevent the Islamization of their historic homeland.

The VB are utterly despised by the Belgian power elite. Why? Well, the VB are Flemish separatists who are fiscally and socially conservative, opposed to mass immigration and multiculturalism, opposed to Islamism and creeping Sharia law, and proudly and vocally supportive of the US and Israel. In other words, everything that that the Belgian and Euro-elites are not.

Charles Johnson has asked people to take a second, critical look at the VB. And when a widely respected leader of the counterjihad movement suggests taking a second look, reasonable people take a second look. With all due respect to Charles, I feel that the VB is a valuable ally of us all, despite a questionable past. Many, perhaps most of our counterjihad leaders have also come to this conclusion. I would encourage the Flemish people to support the VB, and further bring it into the moderate mainstream.

I respect all the serious counterjihadis who have misgivings about this party and refuse to support it. I hope they can respect those of us who do support the VB. Let's all assume that we, despite our differences, are acting in good faith, until proven otherwise. Thanks.

Sorry, I can't agree with your last comments. After all the information that has come out about the Vlaams Belang (with more to come, including very shady connections to US white supremacist groups), I can't respect the viewpoint of anyone who continues to support them. I think they're seriously misguided, and are damaging the counter-jihad cause by stubbornly refusing to apply the same common sense skepticism they would use when approaching the statements of radical Islamists.

It's simply not smart to make this alliance, and I'm saddened that so many bloggers can't see that. But I won't join them, and I can't respect them.

624 iWatas  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 3:33:31pm

Anyone who thinks Europe will possibly survive the Islamic wave and still stay politically correct is dreaming. Europe is going to have a strong fascist movement, even if the demographics probably mean it will be doomed anyway.

Still, while I might not vote for this guy, people here should not make the perfect the enemy of the good. This guy may well be a closet racist and nazi - but his positions are still much better than the mainstream "see no evil" parties.

He is right that one should be proud of, and defend, European culture. Without that, young muslims will certainly not assimilate. In this respect, VB beats the status quo.

625 Jimmah  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 3:35:18pm

re: #603 Husky40

I am now convinced that many of our American friends will keep on lamenting on how Europe is going down the drain, at the same time reminding us that they're not gonna help us this time and that if we do anything against the enemies from within we are nazis.

Strawman. What has been criticised is hooking up with racial nationalists, not fighting Islamization. What people who want us to join up with these losers are suggesting isn't doing anything against our enemies, it is playing directly into their hands. The Islamists would love nothing more than for the anti-Islamist movement to screw it's chances with the mainstream public by associating with these racist losers who account for a small percentage of the population.

Racial nationalism is of course racist. I'm sorry to have to tell you that Britain will never be a homogenous whites only country - it is already multiracial and that's not going to change. My advice to people who really feel that they need to live in a racially homogenous country is the same as I give to Islamists who want to live in a country ruled by sharia - go away and find one somewhere else, if you can, and don't bother coming back.

626 Charles  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 3:37:39pm

re: #623 Charles

I respect all the serious counterjihadis who have misgivings about this party and refuse to support it. I hope they can respect those of us who do support the VB. Let's all assume that we, despite our differences, are acting in good faith, until proven otherwise. Thanks.

And while I appreciate that you may respect those who have misgivings, the same people you're asking me to respect "in return" are not joining you in this lefty position. Instead, they are vilifying and insulting and attacking me for raising these questions.

627 Charles  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 3:38:08pm

"lefty" = "lofty"

628 Yank in the EU  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 3:39:52pm

re: #620 Husky40

I'll have to answer this.

# 613 Yank in the EU > I'm not eager to take the mantle of the victim, but I am sick and tired of reading the same - pardon my language, but... - crap on the blog i've been visiting for quite some time. I'm not denying that there may be lunatics around, but this "we're so better than you white power loons" is just not my kind of argument, Yank in the EU. At this point, i'm not convinced that VB is the Flemish BNP and even if it is, keep in mind two words: national identity. It's not a myth.

In the end, I thank you for your kind words. Don't abandon the fight, Yank. We're not all lost.


National identity does not have to include that racial element. That is a rudimentary mistake of reasoning, though it certainly has benign enough beginnings, given that Europe is in fact composed by numbers of distinct yet related racial groups. The point is not about saying we in the US are "holier than thou"; it is rather to say, 'Here, this is something we strongly disagree with on legitimate grounds.' To summarize a long and complex discussion: 'nativism' or 'racialism' (the theory of nationalim or identity that includes race at its basis) conceptually contains 'racism' in the most literal, non-PC, non-judgmental way. Forget all the PC crap and how the left throws around that word such that it means nothing; conceptually the reasoning is valid. European rightist groups don't have to include race in their ideologies and they would be much stronger for building on non-biological values, traditions, languages, beliefs and so on.

629 Yank in the EU  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 3:42:47pm

#621 pimf: denial

630 Jimmah  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 3:43:03pm

re: #620 Husky40


# 613 Yank in the EU > I'm not eager to take the mantle of the victim, but I am sick and tired of reading the same - pardon my language, but... - crap on the blog i've been visiting for quite some time. I'm not denying that there may be lunatics around, but this "we're so better than you white power loons" is just not my kind of argument, Yank in the EU. At this point, i'm not convinced that VB is the Flemish BNP and even if it is, keep in mind two words: national identity. It's not a myth.

National and racial identity, you mean. You sound just like Filip de Winter. We didn't buy this crap from him, we're not going to buy it from you.

631 zuckerlilly  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 3:50:03pm

And more about Vlaams Belang and his president Frank Vanhecke:

(...)

In April 1988, Frank Vanhecke is interviewed by the Deutsche National Zeitung (German National Newspaper), the far-right weekly of Gerhard Frey, which has a circulation of 150,000. Vanhecke easily wins over his new audience, for example by calling “the liberation of Mussolini” the greatest military achievement in history. He also confesses that he would have liked to have witnessed the Spanish civil war of 1936, in particular the moment when the troops of general Franco defeated the left wing people’s army. Vanhecke knows his far-right classics: he considers Jean Raspail and Robert Brasillach to be his favourite authors. When asked about his aversions, he replies straight-facedly: “the lies about the Second World War.”

(...)

about KKK and David Duke:

On another occasion, Vanhecke takes upon himself the defense of David Duke, a former top member of the Ku-Klux Klan (KKK), who wants to run for the post of governor of the American state of Louisiana. “It is alright for politicians to be former communists, but those who – perhaps stupidly – looked far to the right once in their youth are forever damned.”

In the same breath Vanhecke thinks the time is right to “finally give some praise to Dominique Venner’s 1975 book, “Le blanc soleil des vaincus” (published by La Table Ronde, Paris). Those who want to know more about the American civil war, and the real Ku-Klux Klan, without being indoctrinated by nauseating clichés, cannot avoid this book. [...] Strongly recommended as an antidote to the daily misinformation of the media,” the man who would become leader of Vlaams Blok wrote in January 1992.

-----------

Isn't it sad that rational people in Europe try to prevent Europe from new fascism (islamofascism or neofascism like VB) and get a knife rammed in their back by people like Pamela or Fjordman who promote neofascism to fight islamofascism?

May I ask the question if Pamela or Fjordman also align with Pat Buchanan because the VB does? (the Robert Taft Club was founded by Pat Buchanan and btw: Robert Taft denounced the Nuremberg Trial as "Siegerjustiz" - Victor's Justice - and that is what every (neo)nazi claims).

The deWinter and Vanhecke appearence at the Robert Taft Club were promoted by stormfront (attention: this is a link to stormfront)

The argument the VB cant be fascist otherwise they wouldn't work with jews is simple stupid. Former "Freedom Party"-leader (FPOE) Joerg Haider from Austria had his "Hofjuden" (courtjews) Sichrowski and Avigdor Liebermann and even the Iranians have rabbi Ahron Cohen (GB) or rabbi Moishe Friedman from Austria on their side. The arguments made by VB against islam are exactly the same made by Germans and Austrians against jews before WWII.

So Pamela and Fjordman et all are aligned with people who argue that immigration of other ethnic groups should be forbidden what means that Pamelas forefathers wouldn't had had the chance to live in the USA. What VB et all promote is nothing less than ethnic cleansing and this we had from 1933 to 1945. 6 million people died in this years in a brutish way but Germany/Austria were ethnic clean and we were "white" Europeans.

Disgusting.

632 zuckerlilly  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 3:55:19pm

"align" = "aligned"

633 jeppo[deleted]  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 4:03:09pm
634 leepro  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 4:06:30pm

re: #627 Charles

"lefty" = "lofty"

Freudian slip?

No need to correct, Charles. Either way, you are correct!

;)

635 Render  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 4:10:39pm

I am extremely supportive of Europe.

I am not, and never will be, supportive of nazi's, neo, American, European, or otherwise. No matter what uniform they do or do not wear currently.

It seems obvious that DeWinter is trying to shed or at least hide his past. This is just as obviously a recent development in his political life.

I don't care.

===

Has it been disclosed that Paul Beliens wife is or was a high ranking member of VB?

===

From 1996.

[Link: query.nytimes.com...]

"One needn't look very hard, however, to find clues as to why Belgian authorities are so leery of him. On one of his bookshelves is a heavy marble sculpture of the Celtic cross, adopted by some neo-Nazis as their version of the swastika. On a dresser, a photo of the French far-right leader Jean-Marie Le Pen mingles with those of Dewinter's wife and kids. For Dewinter, Le Pen is like family, a father figure even."

-Obviously, DeWinter's had that Odin's Cross in his house for quite a while.

===

NOT NO,
HELL NO,
R

636 jwbaumann  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 4:15:45pm

re: #365 mean Gene

Charles, I found this:
[Link: home.hetnet.nl...]


"During the two years after Stalin's death (3-5-53) amnesty was granted to most prisoners who were locked up with the charge of collaboration with the enemy.
Among them were people whom were no Soviet citizens, but whom were taken prisoner by the Red Army or had been handed over to them by the Allied Powers."

So, it looks as though an amnesty was granted to Nazi collaborators by the USSR under new leader Nikita Khrushchev.

I'm sure much more has been posted about this by now, but for those who have accused Dewinter of lying about this, are you going to apologize?

637 profitsbeard  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 4:22:28pm

"Tom Paine" roasts this Flemish goose (who steps in his own b.s.) to a crispy brown. Basting him with his own pure sauce.

DeWinter is DeLoser.

Getting hungry...

Mmmmm! Turkey sandwich!

(All white meat?)

638 Yank in the EU  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 4:26:13pm

re: #635 Render

Has it been disclosed that Paul Beliens wife is or was a high ranking member of VB?

The common wisdom has been that she is one of the leading forces of hope, who is making efforts to mainstream the party away from its old Vlaams Blok ideology, which has been discussed at length of course. Personally, I have now lost all trust in this 'faction' as well, after the handling of all of this. Namely, the gratuitous attacks on LGF for legitimate and well-made concerns, the distortion of those points at the Brussels Journal, the open and ample defense of racial ideology at that site, the fact that the VB supports today the BNP, Le Pen, the NPD and Haider, as well as the wholesale failure of these people to confront openly and honestly these serious problems (which we evidence by Dewinter's own words). I'd say the veneer of the "new and reformed party" is wearing thin; they seem to be content with where the party's allegiances stand. That has been a disheartening revelation, as I have been an active supporter of their efforts.

639 VonStierlitz  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 4:28:07pm

re: #152 stvip

re: #145 Ben Hur

And for those who think peaceful Islam is impossible, that there is simply no way to implement the Koran peacefully, what exactly are you suggesting we do about Muslims and the Koran?

Stop the immigration and deport all sharia-fanatics and jihad-supporting troublemakers.

640 Render  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 4:28:58pm

[Link: www.tau.ac.il...]

"Extreme Right Political Parties

Despite its demonstrations of solidarity with Israel and the Jewish community since the creation of the AEL, and its more moderate tone in relation to the Holocaust and the Jews in general, the Vlaams Beland (VB; formerly Vlaams Blok – see ASW 2004), headed by Filip Dewinter, still retains ties with small neo-fascist and antisemitic groups, such as Voorpost and Were Di."

===

The Italian 8th Army left 54,000 dead in Soviet POW camps after Stalingrad. The pitiful handful of survivors, (less than 1,000), were not released until 1955.

Some amnesty.

FATES
WARNING,
R

641 Charles  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 4:38:27pm

re: #636 jwbaumann

I'm sure much more has been posted about this by now, but for those who have accused Dewinter of lying about this, are you going to apologize?

I see one poster who said he/she thought it was a lie. Who would you like that person to apologize to?

642 Yank in the EU  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 4:40:55pm

re: #638

I should also add to my list that VB members still honor Gustave DeClercq, Nazi collaborator who was active in the Holocaust. Dewinter, moreover, affirms the party's roots in the Flemish nationalist collaborators, despite recent denials by Paul Belien. I believe this would all be a different story if our concerns were merely about the 1940's or even the 1990's, but that is obviously not so, and if they had confronted serious concerns raised in a frank and less condescending manner.

[Link: www.filipdewinter.be...]

643 Charles  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 4:45:04pm

re: #638 Yank in the EU

re: #635 Render

Has it been disclosed that Paul Beliens wife is or was a high ranking member of VB?
The common wisdom has been that she is one of the leading forces of hope, who is making efforts to mainstream the party away from its old Vlaams Blok ideology, which has been discussed at length of course. Personally, I have now lost all trust in this 'faction' as well, after the handling of all of this. Namely, the gratuitous attacks on LGF for legitimate and well-made concerns, the distortion of those points at the Brussels Journal, the open and ample defense of racial ideology at that site, the fact that the VB supports today the BNP, Le Pen, the NPD and Haider, as well as the wholesale failure of these people to confront openly and honestly these serious problems (which we evidence by Dewinter's own words). I'd say the veneer of the "new and reformed party" is wearing thin; they seem to be content with where the party's allegiances stand. That has been a disheartening revelation, as I have been an active supporter of their efforts.

Good summation of the problems. I would add to that the enormous and very vocal support for the VB among US and European neo-Nazi groups. If he had honestly and sincerely repudiated them, they would not be so supportive -- in fact, they would despise him.

Instead we see that DeWinter has appeared on a white supremacist radio show with links to the Institute for Historical Review (Holocaust denial), and the Council of Conservative Citizens (white supremacy), whose guest list is a who's who of US neo-Nazis and extremists.

645 VonStierlitz  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 4:50:42pm

re: #265 Golem Akbar

There is another alternative. Support for democracy across the globe. Don't condemn Moslems because of their faith (unless you are perfect and can point to yourself as such).

Democracy ? Are you kidding ?
Does a "democratically elected Hamas" ring any bells ?

Islam IS exactly the source of the problem.
Is it possible to condemn an ideology without condemning people who support it ? I don't think so.

646 Killgore Trout  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 4:53:26pm

re: #644 zuckerlilly

Interesting.

647 Charles  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 4:54:51pm

re: #644 zuckerlilly

Diane West promoted VB in February 2007 when they visited the Robert Taft Club

It's a little ironic that Diana West cites Bruce Bawer's book in that article -- because Bawer has very explicitly denounced the Vlaams Belang. Bawer emailed me and told me to "stick to my guns," in fact.

648 neocon hippie  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 4:57:10pm

Yank in the EU:

I'm curious as to how you view Belgium's near future. What do you think are the chances of there occuring some sort of paralytic governmental/constitutional crisis, larger-scale violence that would involve some combination of Flemings, Walloons, and/or Muslims, or even all-out civil war. And should any of the above occur, what are the implications for the Belgium-hosted EU?

649 Render  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 5:00:35pm

re: #643 Charles

That name, Council of Conservative Citizens, came up in some of the backround research on the YAF issue last week.

EVERY
BUSH,
R

650 Krampus  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 5:14:37pm

Charles, your instincts are spot-on regarding the VB and DeWinter's positions.

As someone who was born in that part of Europe, I know it won't take much for a nationalist position to be tipped towards VB or other White European-first sentiment. That said, those of us from that part of the world are not ripe for a new state of nationalist-pride—but 'do' want to maintain our cultural values and traditions.

Thanks for placing these VB A**holes rhetoric to the fore.

651 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 5:17:13pm

re: #529 Johnny Canuck

We have been backed into a corner by the left in our societies, and have no other options left, but to fight with who ever we can at our sides and worry about sorting the rest out later, after we have saved our selves FIRST.

I see you haven't changed your position at all since declaring LGF was a waste of your time. Looks like you're still "wasting" your time here. Most of us disagree with your sentiments, and if you can't figure out why, then I would suggest you're being willfully blind.

652 Yank in the EU  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 5:19:17pm

re: #648 neocon hippie

Yank in the EU:

I'm curious as to how you view Belgium's near future. What do you think are the chances of there occuring some sort of paralytic governmental/constitutional crisis, larger-scale violence that would involve some combination of Flemings, Walloons, and/or Muslims, or even all-out civil war. And should any of the above occur, what are the implications for the Belgium-hosted EU?

Well, first, I don't think I've ever seen such a complicated mess as with Belgian politics, especially if you are on the right. This is a very socialist country. Hard working people in Flanders pay out of their noses for the large numbers of Muslim immigrants and they also basically flip the entire bill for the hard-socialist Walloonia. The state-run media is laden with anti-Americanism and progressive ideology (e.g. very anti-religious) as well as the socialist school systems. So socialism is entrenched and that means a lot of lazy, selfish people on the dole, especially in the big cities. Given the multicultural policies on immigration (there is like an entire Islamic town in Brussels-Molenbeek, e.g.), we are heading down the road of state failure. The decent, common sensical people have nowhere to turn because there really is no standard right wing - except of course the far-right VB. Yet the VB's numbers remain marginal on the national level; many reasonable-minded people find their ideology and general anti-immigrant position to be too extreme. So, people talk about a massive resurgence of white nationalism, but that's not really happening. What will happen, I believe, is that Belgium will stay socialist out of sheer inertia if anything, continue appeasing radical Islam, until finally conflict begins to occur. People predict guerilla-style warfare between the right and Muslims and the socialists will attack and try to stamp out not the Muslims, but the right who call for war. The demographics issue make the situation all the more dire -- people who would support Belgian culture and nationalism are not giving birth enough and a lot of people are on pension. There is also rampant corruption in Brussels that drains what successes the people of Belgium earn with their business and hard work. Socialism is the underlying condition for all of this, along with the strange lack of center-right, classical liberal types. Radical Islam will certainly be the hammer that strikes the anvil, creating a fight or submit situation; before that emergency stage begins the mainstream right must try to gain a foothold and forestall some of these impending disasters. This will not be soon, however, as the radical Muslim presence is still noticed or large enough to be feared. It will take two or three decades to reach crisis mode, most estimates predict.

653 Yank in the EU  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 5:22:35pm

#652 make that "still not noticed"

654 zuckerlilly  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 5:31:07pm

And there is more and more about VB. Actually (today 10/30/2007) they are celebrating in Vienna/Palais Palffy the 10 year existence of the far right-wing media "Zur Zeit".

Participants: Andreas Mölzer (EU MP), Robert Steuckers (VB) and Herbert Schaller, lawyer of David Irving (profession: holocaust denier). David Irving isn't allowed to enter Austria, so he participated via video.

VB is actually supporting the Austrian Freedom Party in Styria in their election campaign.

(the link want be valid for long)

@Charles,

good to hear. Do you have information from Bat Yeor too?

655 mean Gene  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 5:34:58pm

re: #647 Charles
That Bruce emailed you and said, stick to your guns, is no surprise to me.
Having read his books and web pages I would think he would be the first to recognize yet another "elitist" group ready and willing to coopt some popular ideas to bring power to themselves.
This whole Euro-elitism leadership garbage is what has to stop.
The idea that for decades the immigrants were looked on as "colorful" digusts me.
No wonder they refused to assimilate.
The elites were busy telling them their own culture was better than the European ones.
Someone here pointed out how people of color have no right to credit themselves with all of the accomplishments or richness of their race.
They should each person be held to account for his own accomplishments.
But the elites of Europe as well as the islamists think otherwise.
Please, do, continue to stick to your guns, Charles.

656 Yank in the EU  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 5:35:17pm

About Brussels-Molenbeek~

I don't know this site, but interesting video:

[Link: democracybroadcasting.blogspot.com...]

"Many police officers are afraid that the State no longer wields authority here -- at least not the sole authority. They know that Islamists view Brussels' Molenbeek area as subject only to Muslim law."

Thus, it is quite understandable that some folks on the right in Flanders believe the Vlaams Belang to be the "only alternative" (Het enige alternatief), but such wishes are not going to make some of the fundamental concerns we have raised disappear that will ultimately damage critically the legitimacy of the movement against Islamization. It seems to many of us very obvious that they need to rebuild their coalition without the white nationalist element and independent of things suchs as the roots of the party being of Nazi collaborators. Let's hope the Vlaams Belang supporters are considering our arguments carefully, for the same issues will surely not disappear, and are reconsidering the position of people like Dewinter and Verhanke at the helm of their fight against Islamism.

657 Josephine  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 5:39:53pm

re: #602 AirForceWife

Thanks. I wasn't sure if the position of the quote made it obvious to anyone who might see your comment.

658 Mr Krabs  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 5:41:54pm

#590 stvip
Daniel PipeDaniel Pipes: Distinguishing between Islam and Islamism

A non-muslim 'expert' on islam, Daniel Pipes, reassures us there are two distinct islams. It takes a stupid infidel buy this crap, stvip. I tend to believe someone who comes from that culture and has experienced the depravity of islam first hand.

[Link: www.theaustralian.news.com.au...]

[Link: bp3.blogger.com...]

659 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 5:46:22pm

re: #652 Yank in the EU

Socialism is the underlying condition for all of this

It's become quite clear to me that socialism is as much an enemy to the Europeans as islam is. It is a cancer that has ravaged the continent- siphoning away the peoples money so they can barely afford their families, which is now leading to a demographics issue; infesting education with indoctrination; foisting liberal immigration policies- the list goes on. Socialism has crippled Europe to the point where many now feel the solution to to align with fascist elements to remove the cancer of islamifestation. Never mind the cancer of socialism.

So I see the problem as twofold- islam and socialism- both vying for the same land. Both are failures, and both must go- together. Rid europe of socialism and ridding it of islam might just be easier. (I won't be holding my breath however).

660 Lauraf  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 5:49:41pm

re: #658 Mr Krabs

#590 stvip
Daniel PipeDaniel Pipes: Distinguishing between Islam and Islamism

A non-muslim 'expert' on islam, Daniel Pipes, reassures us there are two distinct islams. It takes a stupid infidel buy this crap, stvip. I tend to believe someone who comes from that culture and has experienced the depravity of islam first hand.

[Link: www.theaustralian.news.com.au...]

[Link: bp3.blogger.com...]

Try Ed Hussein's "The Islamist", Zuhdi Jasser, or Irshad Manji for Muslims who agree with Pipes.

661 Render  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 5:49:52pm

[Link: www.stormfront.org...]

Both of VB most recent leaders are in that group.

===

ok that's it.

I can't go there anymore.

DISGUSTED,
R

662 Yank in the EU  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 5:52:06pm

re: #652 Yank in the EU

To reply to the question about the EU, that question depends on factual knowledge of how much support the EU really has or doesn't have. I don't have that information, actually, and usually go to various blogs for detailed opinions. However, we do have some limited evidence. First, the EU referendum failed spectacularly and the countries were not able to agree on a constitution; that basically would have given France and Brussels remarkable central power. Hence the anti-EU people won a battle on that score. Second, many Europeans are leftwing (if one hadn't noticed) and hence of course they view the great utopian beaurocracy that distributes wealth as the ultimate solution to life's travails. So, it seems the political structure already in place, the legal system, the EU military structure that has been created, the money system, etc. are all going to be very difficult to tear down, especially given that so many Europeans believe in the basic concept of a trans-national socialist union. In short, I believe the European socialists will fight for the EU with everything they have. We would need to see individual countries desiring to end socialism at home first, which is not a widely popular demand since it would mean people voting away an extremely cushy social network. But we aren't seeing that; people by and large tend to love their 'non-commercialized' state-dependent, nanny-state, systems. The prospect of ending the EU, while much desired for anyone with common sense, does not appear to be in sight.

663 Krampus  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 5:53:33pm

re: #661 Render

[Link: www.stormfront.org...]

Both of VB most recent leaders are in that group.

===

ok that's it.

I can't go there anymore.

DISGUSTED,
R

Cheers Render, I feel the need to shower after visiting stormfront.

664 Yank in the EU  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 6:01:41pm

re: #659 Sharmuta

Yes, it's hard to say which is worse for Europe - Islamism or socialism. And if you oppose socialism, the totalitarian left has no mercy for you. EU socialists lie, exclude their opponents at all opportunities from the democratic process, smear, charge "racism" at every stupid thing. Observe how Zapatero in Spain has been systematically dismantling the Catholic and traditional aspects of that country; the left erases history and culture that it dislikes without a second glance. So blinded by utopian ideology, the most obvious facts of problems with mass immigration are not registed. If one thinks the American left is bad, one hasn't met an EU MP on the left.

665 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 6:16:29pm

re: #664 Yank in the EU

Maybe it's not so different here in America. We need to keep socialism from corroding America like europe should have done. We need to look at our immigration policies now before it gets more out of hand like europe's did. Europe is serving as the canary in the coal mine for Americans- if they're willing to look and learn the lessons. Socialism- even in it's mildest form, damages any culture where it's been tried- we are seeing the manifest effects now. You can't tax people out of affording children, indoctrinate the children you do have, and flood your country with immigrants unwilling to assimilate. It's a recipe for disaster.

The point not to be lost here is the solution to said disaster is not to be found in turning to fascist elements.

666 zuckerlilly  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 6:19:42pm

(...) "deWinter is a clever guy, a surrogate of Joerg Haider. In Antwerp a lot of gold is dealt and over the common enemy Islam points of contact to the Jews exist. deWinter visited Israel. This is very dangerous." (...)


The deceased German party leader Franz Schönhuber (Republikaner) - a SS-Unterscharführer and instructor of the french SS-division Charlemagne in his last interview for "Aula" a far right-wing (neofascist) monthly published I/2006. The "Republikaner" are aligned with the VB.

667 Malatrope  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 6:21:53pm

I'm going to toss in a statement here, which y'all can ignore if you like, about one of the basic human "rights" that I believe should be granted (or at least recognized) throughout the world. It's really an extension of the American 1st Amendment. This would be the right to free and uncensored communication amongst all peoples. What we in the West are "selling" are a handful of fairly simple and attractive ideas. We shouldn't force these ideas on others, but they should be able to freely understand and discuss them. The beating heart of all brutal dictatorships, be they political or religious, is the suppression of knowledge. We may not be able to stop the processes of indoctrination (which word, incidentally, can be used to describe more than just issue in the Middle East), but we may be able to neutralize it by insuring in some manner that knowledge is accessible by all.

Clearly this would allow, and even sanctify, the flow of propaganda, but I believe in the end "the good ideas will out". I know, I know, this is utopian 'n all, but as long as we're trying to write down basic principles...

"Take my blog? From my cold dead fingertips!"

/gotta run

668 Malatrope  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 6:23:38pm

PIMF: "issues"

669 Mr Krabs  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 6:33:35pm
re: #658 Mr Krabs

#590 stvip
Daniel PipeDaniel Pipes: Distinguishing between Islam and Islamism

A non-muslim 'expert' on islam, Daniel Pipes, reassures us there are two distinct islams. It takes a stupid infidel buy this crap, stvip. I tend to believe someone who comes from that culture and has experienced the depravity of islam first hand.

[Link: [Link: www.theaustralian.news.com.au...]...]

[Link: bp3.blogger.com...]

Try Ed Hussein's "The Islamist", Zuhdi Jasser, or Irshad Manji for Muslims who agree with Pipes.

Islam is islam. 164 verses calling for jihad violence in the koran. The rest is just puffed up intellectuals and apologists in a circle jerk.

670 Crusader Rabbit  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 6:39:44pm

re: #456 Sharmuta

re: #432 Crusader Rabbit

I think the current problems in europe can find their roots in socialism.

I used to think socialism was bad. After this weekend- I think it's evil.


Hayek maintained that Socialism invariably led to the sort of evil state Germany became under the Nazi party.

After living in the supposedly most benign form of socailist state (Sweden) I'm inclined to agree with Hayek. There is no nice way to have a socialist state. Rather socialism makes a society homocidal (Nazi Germany) or suicidal (post-modernist Europe).

671 nt250  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 6:41:14pm

I don't get it. What did he say in that interview that was so bad? He doesn't want his daughter to marry outside her race and culture? So what? Why is it it's only white people who are not allowed to say things like that?

I wouldn't care if my daughter came home with a black man as long as he has job. As far as a Lesbian? I hope not. If she came home and told me she was a lesbian I'd be just as disappointed as if she came home and told me she found Jesus. Yikes! I would think I'd raised her wrong.

As far as coming home with a Muslim man? I'd lock her in her room until she's too old for him. Which should be about 12.

672 Crusader Rabbit  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 6:42:54pm

re: #450 buzzsawmonkey

re: #432 Crusader Rabbit


Even so, you cannot attribute all of the conflicts in Europe following the Reformation to the Reformation. Europe was hardly at peace before, and Eastern Europe was in a constant struggle with muslim invasions both before and after the Reformation.

I haven't tried to attribute "all the conflicts in Europe following the Reformation to the Reformation"--just the many, many conflicts which were between Catholics and Protestants. And there were plenty of them, over a long period of time. Even if, arguably, the religious differences of the Reformation were in some cases mere pretexts for continuing older traditional conflicts, the fact remains that the Reformation was the catalyst for about 200 years of intra-Christian warfare over religion.

What you say above is inarguable. Would you agree then that "several centuries" is a bit of an exaggeration?

673 JHW  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 7:43:37pm

I haven`t read all the comments since Charles` #457 so please excuse me if I repeat anything that has been posted already. I decided to go through some of the archives posted in Charles` link #457 at that Political Cesspool site. A very apt name. I`m not sure if I can get the poison off after a hundred showers after going through a small sample of their broadcasts. These people should be shunned by anyone who pretends to any kind of decency.

One thing that motivated me to check them out is they had General Hal Moore on their guest list, and conducted a phone interview with him. I was dismayed to see this. Thankfully his interview was only about his military career. For those of you that don`t know, Gen. Moore wrote the book "We Were Soldiers Once...and Young" which was made into the movie of the same name, starring Mel Gibson. Gen. Moore served with honor and somehow I don`t think he would have talked to these people if he was a bit more familiar with them. It seems to be a pattern with them to have a few legitimate "names" as guests to lend credence to their program.His name would push the pride in our service people, patriotic button on their so-called populist agenda.

Most of those broadcasts on that site are filth as far as I`m concerned,thinly disguised racism and Antisemitism.Much talk of the "Zionist cabal" controlling media,government, academia, etc., etc. "Neo-con Jewish elite", "final solution" (the quotation marks are theirs, as if there is a doubt that this happened), much ranting about Bush being controlled by Israel (an evil country according to them) and how the Iraq war supposedly serves their purpose.Jimmy Carter and Pat Buchanan cited as those whose Mideast policies we should follow.Reference to the woman in the Duke LaCrosse case as "a lying Negress", she was a liar but they made it into a kind of "genteel" racial slur, her race is irrelevant. Ron Paul seems to be a big hero to these people.911 truthers, Holocaust deniers, White Pride groups, why anyone would want to associate with this bunch is beyond my comprehension. Who the hell wants to ally with Baal to defeat Beelzebub?

Finally they proudly post articles that criticize them, I suppose to show their "Truth to Power" credibility.Her is one from the ADL, germane to this thread:US Anti-Immigrant Groups Meet with Belgian Racists

Now for that long, hot shower.

674 gymnast  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 8:06:52pm

re: #464 looking closely

re: #367 gymnast

re: #353 looking closely

Peddle your horse shit somewhere else shitbird.


The point is you shouldn't tar someone merely by association. The fact that two people share a stage doesn't necessarily mean they share an ideology

"He once appeared on a racist program with David Duke" is certainly suspicious. . .but by itself meaningless without further context. Much more important is WHAT WAS SAID at the program.

EG the president of Columbia University recently introduced a speech by Iranian president Ahmedinejad.

Do you think this academic also thinks Israel needs to be wiped off the map? Can you think of an alternative explanation?

With respect to Duke, lets just say I dont have a lot of respect for the guy. My understanding is that he was actually expelled from the KKK in the late 70s for embezzlement, something that both he and they covered up later because of mutual embarassment.

Again with respect to Vlaams Belang, I think enough light has been shined on them to see what's going on here. I'm not whitewashing their racist history/connections.


Once again, sorry I popped off at you. I misinterpreted your comment and apologise.

675 Lynn B.  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:22:31pm

re: #244 Golem Akbar

Read Spencer or Daniel Pipes. They talk about it. Both believe that it is happening. Never fast enough, but there are people out there trying to do just that.

Robert Spencer and Daniel Pipes do indeed talk about it. They both say it's not happening and the only people out there trying to make it happen at the moment (with limited exceptions you can count on one hand), are non-Muslims or ex-Muslims. Even Pipes says that the "moderate Islam" he views as "the answer" "does not exist today."

There's a lot of quibbling going on here about Vlaams Belang's "past" and whether they're neo-Nazis or fascists. But let's forget that for the moment and just take "Tom Paine's" interview on its own, at face value. Surely there's no wiggle room for Filip Dewinter there. He was very clear. Collaboration with the Nazis was justified by the benefits the Flemish nationalists hoped to reap. Since that proved to be an illusion, they now regret that alliance.

Wow.

I'm not going to tar all Flemish nationalists with Dewinter's brush. But it's clear that Dewinter himself, who points out that he wasn't even alive at the time, supports that WWII alliance of convenience in the name of his party, even with 20-20 hindsight. And that's enough for me. It ought to be enough for anyone. Because if you can make excuses for collaboration in genocide on the grounds that it paid off for you or a cause you believe in, then I don't want to be on the same planet with you, let alone in the same room.

(Oh, boy. I'm way late to the thread, as usual.)

676 Jauhara al Kafirah  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 9:32:49pm

You know what's killing me, Charles? It is the fact that I have come to love and trust this site as one of the few honest sources of news analysis and Gates of Vienna as a trusted source of news analysis coming out of Europe, especially Belgium and Scandinavia. I know that Fjordman has posted here and there also. I just can't wrap my head around this split. I agree with you, yet I understand where they are coming from. It is heart-breaking to see it going down this way. I guess my point is this: When I read the ideas being posted on your threads, I think quite highly both of the posters, and of this site. I read the reactions on the dipshit leftarded sites like Kos, and they always prove themselves to be insufferable whackdoodles, incapable of understanding plain English... We just sort of sit back and watch them implode. Kind of fun to watch people whose neuroses are self-inflicted. Now watching two mutually intelligent groups - both who have my deepest admiration and respect - savage each other without the histrionics of the left....well. Sigh.
The rightwing in Europe has a great many skeletons in its closets....and this may be just what keeps anyone here or there from ever discussing the problem of Shariah-creep in Eurabistan. I don't know how we can get past this and move forward.

677 johnny 100 pesos  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:01:34pm

I have yet to listen (that comes tomorrow while grocery shopping), but still I'm filled with sadness.

There goes my favourite podcast.

678 Render  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:25:55pm

re: #676 Jauhara al Kafirah

A start might be...

By expelling from those political parties all those known to be or have been directly connected with the known neo-nazi pasts of both parties.

Instead of just changing the names of the parties and hiding the uniforms.

UNPAID,
R

679 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:40:23pm

re: #676 Jauhara al Kafirah

Now watching two mutually intelligent groups - both who have my deepest admiration and respect - savage each other without the histrionics of the left....well.

That is unfair. Charles is savaging no one- he's merely speaking the truth.

680 Jauhara al Kafirah  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 10:51:12pm

re: #678 Render

re: #676 Jauhara al Kafirah

A start might be...

By expelling from those political parties all those known to be or have been directly connected with the known neo-nazi pasts of both parties.

Instead of just changing the names of the parties and hiding the uniforms.

UNPAID,
R


Given Europe's history, Render, that may prove impossible. Europe is the master of all things artificial. It is they who divvied up the middle east with its nonsensical borders. It is they who created their mess to begin with. They are nothing like Americans. We're mongrels, we are the true melting pot. Americans I feel are not the racists the vocab-challenged on the left try to make us out to be...but racism in Europe is an institutional thing. Hardly the characteristic of only the skin heads, who, much like their Islamofascist brethren, seek the gloried, storied days of old.
Europe's pendulum is swinging back to another extreme, and at its core, the loss of identity is once again the culprit. Whether you submerge your identity into the mass or the "people" as they used to say, now it's submerging your identity into the collective guilt foisted upon you by the government nannies. The only difference being in the change of clothing by the nannies. Personally, I don't think Europe can survive unless it revives the spirit of the individual. Right now, it has shackled itself both happily and haplessly with so many rules and regulators that it is like Gulliver, immobilized by Lilliputians.

681 AirForceWife  Tue, Oct 30, 2007 11:50:19pm

#663 Krampus 10/30/07 5:53:33 pm 0

Cheers Render, I feel the need to shower after visiting stormfront.

It is pretty shocking and sickening. It's hard to believe that it's even real. I will however say, that I don't find it anymore despicable than I do the black political activists groups. Is there one White's only university in America? One television station titled "White Entertainment TV" like the BET station? One magazine for whites like Ebony? Do we have a White heritage month? Or dinners put on at the White house celebrating the white culture? How about college grants for whites only? A white caucus in congress? This is to say nothing of affirmative action, quotas and hate crime laws.

I despise David Duke and those of his ilk but if some group came out and advocated the exact same types of things that I listed above but for whites, they would be rightfully rejected.

682 BabbaZee  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 1:39:58am

re: #673 JHW

Who the hell wants to ally with Baal to defeat Beelzebub?

Indeed.
Thanks for that,
made me LOL
and I needed it desperately.

683 Michal  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:41:59am

re: #222 mean Gene

The Nazis were a known quantity in 1940.
VB collaborated with them, openly. (in spite of that? Did they have common cause with Nazi policies?) Filip DeWinter says they thought co-operation could win them Flemish independence from Belgium. (after Nazi Germany finished absorbing all of Europe, and settled down to rule for a 1000 years.)

Now they want to collaborate with the Anti-Jihadi movement.
Why? To promote a separate Flemish state? How does that work? What does Anti-jihad/islamofascism have to do with VB's Flemish nationalism?

What are their “European values?” Opportunism?

Are they willing get into bed with anyone that will further their aims?

More importantly-are we?

684 Michal  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:48:08am

re: #675 Lynn B.

yeah well late or not, you said that very well. Better than i did.

685 looking closely  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:32:28pm

re: #674 gymnast

Apology accepted.
I don't take this stuff personally.
You just have to be careful whom you are tarring with the "Nazi" brush and why.
In this case Vlaams Belang actually can trace its history directly back to the Nazis, so the charge may have some gravity.
More important, though, is what their current ideology is.
I think there is a lot about VB to be disliked. . .that doesn't necessarily invalidate their entire political platform.
Its up to VB to clean itself up.

686 gymnast  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:04:53pm

re: #685 looking closely

Once tainted by the Nazi brush, the only thing that can follow is for the tainted to follow the brush. That is reality.


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