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A White Power Rat in the Vlaams Belang Youth Magazine

Tue, Nov 6, 2007 at 11:14:10 am PST

In the controversy over the association of counter-jihad bloggers and far-right European parties such as the Vlaams Belang, the latest claim being floated out there is that I’ve been “taken in” by Belgian agents provocateurs, who have infiltrated the Vlaams Belang party for the purpose of discrediting it. The theory goes: all the evidence I’ve posted to date is “disinformation.” All of it.

Who knew the Belgians were that good at disinformation? They must be incredibly skilled in deception, because I’ve only posted a tiny fraction of what I’ve discovered linking Vlaams Belang to white nationalists on both sides of the Atlantic.

So, since I want to try to avoid that astonishingly authentic-appearing Belgian government disinformation, let’s go directly to the source this time, with some images from the Vlaams Belang youth magazine (published online as PDF files).

Frequently appearing in this magazine is De Striprubriek, a column about comic strips. The logo for this column is a rat with a fountain pen.

And a lovely White Nationalist Odin’s Cross armband.

Here’s one edition of the VB youth magazine in which it appears.

LGF reader Killgore Trout scoured up two more images of the White Nationalist rat cartoon from other sources (Belgian extremist sites):


Interestingly, one of the most adamant supporters of the Vlaams Belang in our comments, “jeppo,” did not seem to want to discuss this rat, or the meaning of the Odin’s Cross armband. No doubt because it’s difficult to argue that this is an innocent “Celtic Cross” when it’s on an armband.

The same Odin’s Cross symbol is seen on Filip DeWinter’s bookshelf in the video on this page. Here’s a closeup:

And that’s not all; here’s another interesting image from the VB youth magazine (this edition):

This political cartoon is about the banning of Vlaams Belang’s predecessor, Vlaams Blok, by the Belgian courts. The interesting points here are what we see on the judge’s bench:

1) The Masonic compass and ruler symbol. This is a golden oldie in the white supremacist movement, going all the way back to the Nazis, whose hate literature often featured conspiracies involving Freemasons and Jews.

2) In the past couple of weeks, since I mentioned some of the White Nationalist connections to the Vlaams Belang, I’ve received several hate mails through our contact form, accusing me of being a “n_____ lover.” Notice that the judge has a sticker on his bench that reads, “Black is Beautiful.”

3) The smaller sticker on the left side is an anti-Vlaams Blok poster, with a man giving a Nazi salute inside a red circle with a line through it. It’s probably a smack against the “PC judges” who listened to anti-VB propaganda. Here’s a larger image of the sticker.

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605 comments

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1 Sponge  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:16:12am

Well, at least there's no swasticas......

2 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:17:06am

Sponge: the White Cross is the modern version.....*sigh*

3 Sponge  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:18:49am

re: #2 Jewels (AKA Julian)

I know......but that one isn't as widely known, so they weren't being blatently obvious......

4 smcg  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:19:53am

re: #3 Sponge
just give it a little time

5 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:21:27am

The Jeppo links aren't working for me.

6 Bill Amos  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:21:48am

Must be day of the rat.

John Kerry says "I can prove Swifboaters are Liars"

[Link: willamos.myblogsite.com...]

7 coquimbojoe  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:24:18am

There is no doubt to the origins and motivations of Vlaams Belang. I hope there is no longer a need to dwell on these fools. In the future people of good will should just see VB and the their ilk, and say, I'm not gonna be seen with them.....

I would love to know what Pamela's thinking now....

8 Thanos  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:24:42am

re: #5 Killgore Trout

The Jeppo links aren't working for me.

Same

9 Charles  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:25:03am

re: #5 Killgore Trout

The Jeppo links aren't working for me.

Links work now.

10 Former SSG  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:25:41am

Thank you Charles - in politics, business and life, you really should be sure of who you're getting into bed with!

11 konservo  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:26:36am

Congratulations, jeppo! Your jackassery is linked to in the post!

12 Thanos  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:27:48am

Guys, watch my back here if you would, headed into staff meeting and can't be here til tonight.

13 Silhouette  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:28:26am

I bet Speedy Gonzales could kick his ass.

14 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:29:41am

And we're the ones who get called names!?!

These VB types are not the ones I really want to side with at all. I don't like them, and I don't like their ideology.

Charles, keep up the good work, and keep the bright lights on them (as well as our Islamofascist "friends")

BTW, Oppej, you are the new Nodrog (as coined by Ward Cleaver).

15 chinesearithmetic  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:30:03am

But Europe is so much more civilized, so cultured!

16 vagabond trader  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:30:16am

Well, I do not require a knock on the head to comprehend what is going on with these educated,scrubbed up white EUtopians. Sorry your continent is fast becoming a PC sh*thole, but that's what happens when you exchange educated, assimilated, patriotic Jews for what you have now. Good luck.

17 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:30:20am

I'm anxiously waiting for this interview....
Paul Belien Joins Atlas on the Air


Paul Belien, editor of the Brussels Journal, heroic fighter for Western values, will join me next Monday on my radio show on BlogTalkRadio. at 3PM to discuss the Islamisation of Europe and the Counter Jihad movement.

We'll cover Eurabia, thr welfare state, Europe's lost will to live and the contretemps fracturing right of center blogs for those in support of the counter jihad movement.


It should be good.

18 Dead Sea Squirrel  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:30:21am

You call that proof? It's an ancient Celtic rat, just off the boat from Iona. Until Filip screams "I am a Nazi!" in my ear, you got nothin!
/jeppo

19 coquimbojoe  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:30:52am

re: #7 coquimbojoe

There is no doubt to the origins and motivations of Vlaams Belang. I hope there is no longer a need to dwell on these fools. In the future people of good will should just see VB and the their ilk, and say, I'm not gonna be seen with them.....

I would love to know what Pamela's thinking now....

And there's my answer...she's interviewing Paul Belien on the radio today. Nice. I agree with VB's stances on the dangers of Islamo-fascism, but I don't like any other kind of fascism.... I don't like any racism either. I would never associate with these people despite the fact we might have some stances in common.

20 Diamond Bullet  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:30:58am

It's interesting - years of piercing moonbat/Islamic propaganda covers like the Rather memos and Palestinian "journalism" have given Charles and readers of this site similar skills in punching through ostensibly nonracists right wing sites to discover their creamy, chewy Nazi centers. It's two for the price of one.

21 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:31:08am

What's on the side of the judges podium? I can't make it out.

22 nolocon  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:31:26am

Genuinely curious - wouldn't a depiction of a purported 'white power' armband on a rat be an anti-fascist statement?

23 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:31:44am

re: #18 Dead Sea Squirrel

You call that proof? It's an ancient Celtic rat, just off the boat from Iona. Until Filip screams "I am a Nazi!" in my ear, you got nothin!
/jeppo oppej

Fixed it.

24 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:32:22am

Re#21

3) The smaller sticker on the left side is an anti-Vlaams Blok poster, with a man giving a Nazi salute inside a red circle with a line through it. It’s probably a smack against the “PC judges” who listened to anti-VB propaganda.

I stink.

25 doppelganglander  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:33:12am

Is this like when the Kos Kids claim that the hateful posts and comments over there are actually planted by LGF infiltrators trying to make them look bad?

26 JamesTKirk  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:33:49am

re: #2 Jewels (AKA Julian)

Sponge: the White Cross is the modern version.....*sigh*

Then why isn't it appearing on dormitory doors yet? Are the hoaxers behind the times? *gasp!*

27 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:34:28am

re: #22 nolocon

If you notice he has ink on his tail and is carrying the bottle. He portrays a VB cartoonist who writes a column in every issue.

28 JamesTKirk  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:34:50am

re: #6 Bill Amos

Must be day of the rat.

John Kerry says "I can prove Swifboaters are Liars"

[Link: willamos.myblogsite.com...]

Does that mean you're finally releasing the rest of your records, John? Otherwise STFU and GBTW.

29 Ringo the Gringo  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:35:03am

My wife and four of her friends and fellow nurses moved to the United States from the Philippines back in 1992. At that time three of her other nurse friends moved to the Netherlands thinking that Europe was safer and less racist.

Today, my wife and her friends that moved to the US are all married with children, middle-class home-owners and US citizens, while her friends that went to the Netherlands are all single, live in rented apartments and want desperately to move to the United States.

I believe that Europe is far more racist than the US because both the Right and the Left seem incapable of seeing beyond skin color.

30 mean Gene  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:35:12am

So, basically, anyone aligning with these guys are either knowingly doing so or in denial that they are doing so, right?

31 Silhouette  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:35:23am

re: #22 nolocon

I think the rat is a sympathetic character. I haven't delved into the websites to check.

Anyone?

32 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:36:27am

re: #22 nolocon
It's also the same symbol on Dewinter's bookshelf and flown at VB rallies. They aren't disparaging the White Pride movement here.

33 BigPapa  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:36:37am

You can tell much about a man by his enemies.

34 Sponge  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:37:02am

re: #29 Ringo the Gringo

My wife and four of her friends and fellow nurses moved to the United States from the Philippines back in 1992. At that time three of her other nurse friends moved to the Netherlands thinking that Europe was safer and less racist.

Today, my wife and her friends that moved to the US are all married with children, middle-class home-owners and US citizens, while her friends that went to the Netherlands are all single, live in rented apartments and want desperately to move to the United States.

I believe that Europe is far more racist than the US because both the Right and the Left seem incapable of seeing beyond skin color.


Don't tell that to Jessie Jackson or Al Sharpton, they'll be out of work.....

35 JamesTKirk  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:37:05am

re: #25 doppelganglander

Is this like when the Kos Kids claim that the hateful posts and comments over there are actually planted by LGF infiltrators trying to make them look bad?

More projection, since the Left invented the "Moby".

36 Capitalist Tool  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:37:20am

Mandy Part 1

The devil made me do it.

37 abolitionist  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:38:01am

The Celtic rat's inkwell has a left-hand thread.

38 stvip  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:38:36am

Charles,
in the last VB thread I gave a translation (based upon the French subtitles) of the video of the meeting with DeWinter (the one in which both the WS symbol and his picture with Le Pen is visible). It contains rather damning dialog and background information.

Also, a suggestion: the person who posted that video goes under the moniker of "yelloman". He has a website devoted to exposing VB and its racist-fascist nature and/or links. However, all the material is in Dutch (or a Flemish dialect thereof, can't tell). If you want to pursue this matter, I surmise he or she could provide some decisively damning information. It could be useful to see whether they can communicate in other languages (most Europeans know more than one), and whether it is one shared by an LGF reader who wishes to participate (assuming we don't have Dutch or Flemish people on hand).

39 JamesTKirk  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:39:50am

re: #32 Killgore Trout

re: #22 nolocon
It's also the same symbol on Dewinter's bookshelf and flown at VB rallies. They aren't disparaging the White Pride movement here.

Let me add another to the list o' shame:

ﷲ ☪ ☭ ⊕

40 Sponge  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:40:07am

Fox News Reporting:

Ron Paul sets single day record by collecting $4 Million in campaign contributions over the internet........

41 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:40:52am

re: #37 abolitionist

The Celtic rat's inkwell has a left-hand thread.

You're right. I didn't see that before. Is that some symbolism regarding the rat and the VB? Most lids like that are right-hand thread (turn right to remove, turn left to seal).

Anyway, we need a cat to go after that rat. LGF to WP rats, as rats are to cheese.

42 nolocon  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:41:28am

re: #32 Killgore Trout

re: #22 nolocon
It's also the same symbol on Dewinter's bookshelf and flown at VB rallies. They aren't disparaging the White Pride movement here.


Okay. Ideological movements typically try to avoid ambiguity in their symbols, which are considered essential to the message. Not knowing any better, I'd have figured they were denigrating the armband symbol. Maybe these guys need a better PR firm.

43 coquimbojoe  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:41:50am

re: #29 Ringo the Gringo

My wife and four of her friends and fellow nurses moved to the United States from the Philippines back in 1992. At that time three of her other nurse friends moved to the Netherlands thinking that Europe was safer and less racist.

Today, my wife and her friends that moved to the US are all married with children, middle-class home-owners and US citizens, while her friends that went to the Netherlands are all single, live in rented apartments and want desperately to move to the United States.

I believe that Europe is far more racist than the US because both the Right and the Left seem incapable of seeing beyond skin color.

I love that story. Really. My sister-in-law from Taiwan took the oath of citizenship last Thursday. Productive, smart people, from where ever will always be successful here, despite some racism by a minority of fools and inbred mouth breathers.

44 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:43:07am

Rat Bastids.

Great post.
More to come on the subject of neo nazism and white power freaks from me by sometime tomorrow as well.

45 Sponge  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:44:43am

$97 per barrel oil........

Just in time for winter......nice.

46 Ringo the Gringo  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:45:01am

OT - Restive insurgents have been busy killing Buddhist and fellow Muslims again today as the jihad continues in Thailand.
Ten killed, 27 wounded in Thai south

The unrest in Thailand's insurgency-hit Muslim-majority south showed no signs of abating Tuesday, with 10 people killed in a series of attacks and 27 wounded in a market bombing.

The explosion struck a fresh food market in Yala province as it was filling with shoppers on Tuesday evening. A hospital official in Yala town said two of the 27 wounded had to have limbs amputated.

Earlier Tuesday, a suspected separatist was killed in a clash with security forces in Yala, while a Muslim man whom police claimed was a key rebel leader was also shot dead in Narathiwat.

Suspected militants also opened fire on a teacher and headmaster from the same school in Narathiwat province, killing both the Buddhist men, police said.

On Monday, two imams from mosques in Narathiwat province were shot dead by rebels, police said, while in nearby Pattani three Muslim local government officials and an army sergeant were killed by gunmen.

The shootings take the total number of people killed in the last three days across insurgency-hit Yala, Pattani and Narathiwat provinces to 18. They include a 12-year-old boy, shot alongside his father on Sunday.

47 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:45:35am

By their ubiquitous idiotic satanic symbols ye will know them

48 coquimbojoe  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:45:43am

re: #44 BabbaZee

Keep up the good work. We need as much education about the White Power movement as well as the Islamo-fascists. Both ideologies lead to death.

49 coquimbojoe  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:46:25am

re: #46 Ringo the Gringo

Anybody seen Carridine lately? He OK over there in Thailand?

50 Shelbourne  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:46:34am

1. @38 - STVIP
Send me a link and I am happy to translate it for you.

2. It is sad to see how blind a lot of my fellow Europeans are in their bid to do their best to turn the islamic tide.
Allthough I do not believe that Europeans in general are more racist than Americans ( a comment I read here ), I do believe they manage to better fool themselves at thinking they are doing the right thing.

51 wanumba  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:46:44am

Hang firm - there were a lot more cockroaches still scurrying for cover since Charles flipped on the light switch.

Funny what you discover when you change patterns and find out what's been going on at the times when no one expected ya'd be around.

52 empills  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:47:08am

OT any one watching c-span right now? they are reading the ufo boy's resolution to impeach Cheney. It is pretty amusing.

53 wanumba  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:47:08am

re: #45 Sponge

$97 per barrel oil........
Just in time for winter......nice.

Pray for global warming.

54 Silhouette  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:47:22am

#34 Sponge
#29 Ringo the Gringo

I've wondered if visitors to the US are shocked to see blacks and whites (and brown, yellow, red, green, ;-) etc.) working together or having lunch, after being told all their lives how horrible it is here.

But they probably ignore the thousands of examples of equality and just see proof they want to.

55 Sponge  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:47:53am

re: #53 wanumba

re: #45 Sponge


$97 per barrel oil........
Just in time for winter......nice.

Pray for global warming.

It'll be in the 80's this weekend in the D/FW area, so we're doing our part.....

56 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:47:57am

Dammit, I'm proud of my Viking heritage, why do these bastards have to coopt their symbols from my heritage?

Congrats to your SiL coquimbojoe. A friend, my Son's daycare provider, a native of India, took the oath several years ago. She was so proud the first time she voted in a US election (Nov. 2004).

57 Ringo the Gringo  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:48:27am

re: #49 coquimbojoe

re: #46 Ringo the Gringo

Anybody seen Carridine lately? He OK over there in Thailand?

Don't know about Carridine.

Congratulations to your sister-in-law.

58 nolocon  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:51:02am

The historical precedent is there.

1930s - Fascism and Communism fought each other for what each believed would be control of Europe.

2000s - Fascism and Islamism fight each other for what each believes will be control of Europe.

Each group perceives itself as having future control of Europe. Just as the Left exploited fascist opposition to communism as a means to silence critics, so again the left exploits fascist opposition to Islamism as a means to silence critics.

59 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:51:24am

Umm....it's just a tiny minority of extremists? Or does that no longer apply if said extremists are white?

/invoking the 'Timothy McVeigh rule'

60 wanumba  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:52:06am

Since you've popped up, BabbaZee - fantastic work - a genuine wolverine!

Sola la opresion deber temer al pleno ejercicio de la libertad.
Only oppression should fear the full exercise of freedom.Jose Marti

61 stvip  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:52:44am

re: #50 Shelbourne

Great!

[Link: yelloman1.blogspot.com...]

Of course, I don't expect you to translate all of it (are you Dutch, by the way?) - just find the worst.

Also, there's a 2004 documentary: "documentaire : "la face cachee du Vlaams blok" ("The Hidden Face of Vlaams Blok) with Dutch subtitles, which seems very revealing.
(although it's in French, I can't translate it from the audio - unless pronounced very slowly and clearly, spoken French is unintelligible to me, unlike written French)

62 JamesTKirk  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:52:52am

re: #58 noloconThe communists are still there.

63 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:53:30am

Bono: Islamic Aggression 'Real and Grave' Threat, Media Silent

I want to be very, very clear, however: I understand and agree with the analysis of the problem. There is an imminent threat. It manifested itself on 9/11. It's real and grave. It is as serious a threat as Stalinism and National Socialism were. Let's not pretend it isn't.

Bono goes on to show that he does not engage in Bush Derangement Syndrome, despite the urgings of the Rolling Stone's anti-Bush reporter. In response to the reporter's statement that "But this Administration destroyed that." when they discussed the outpouring of support for the United States immediately following the attacks of Spetember 11, Bono says of President Bush,


There was a plan there, you know. I think the president genuinely felt that if we could prove a model of democracy and broad prosperity in the Middle East, it might defuse the situation.

Will it be Joo 2, or U Joo now?

64 coquimbojoe  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:53:46am

re: #54 Silhouette

I am constantly amazed (in a good way) at the amount of kids that are mixed race. My nieces are half Chinese and it seems like many of their friends are a mix of things. I love that fact they they will grow up not ever thinking that they are different (they aren't). As it should be, there is a blending of people from all over the world here, and I can't imagine it is a bad thing.

65 maddogg  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:53:53am

I see the Freemason-Jewish connection illustrated again.

A large number of my family are Freemasons, and while I never heard any of them say anything anti-Jewish, I never heard them say they were in league with them either. In fact, it just never came up.

66 wanumba  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:53:59am

re: #55 Sponge
ooooh.
25 F forecast around here ahead this week - yikes - we've haven't had any chance to acclimate!
Summer - winter (What happened to Fall?)

67 redc1c4  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:54:27am

re: #45 Sponge

$97 per barrel oil........

Just in time for winter......nice.

thank goodness for "Global Warming"......
(we won't need as much heating oil. %-)

68 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:55:30am

re: #60 wanumba

[blushes]

thank you wanumba

69 debutaunt  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:55:48am

#40 Sponge 11/06/07 11:40:07 am reply quote report 0

Fox News Reporting:

Ron Paul sets single day record by collecting $4 Million in campaign contributions over the internet........

Oh hell, I thought we were sending him money so he'd go away!re: #40 Sponge

70 coquimbojoe  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:57:19am

re: #56 CyanSnowHawk

Thanks, she is very happy about it. I, too, am proud of my Norwegian and Swedish ancestors and my wife's Swedish heritage, but not in a way that makes me feel superior, just proud of them, and glad for the association.

71 rappmandu  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:57:30am

I bet those people think any publicity is good publicity.

72 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:58:03am

re: #48 coquimbojoe

re: #44 BabbaZee

Keep up the good work. We need as much education about the White Power movement as well as the Islamo-fascists. Both ideologies lead to death.

thanks and

AMEN!

Which is why I will keep working on this subject and the connections to us for the foreseeable future until we can begin to understand it and call it out.

Same thing I did with Islam and jihad six years ago, I have to study this, it has has to be discussed.

We have three enemies not two, and yet they are all really one.

73 stvip  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:58:25am

re: #61 stvip

Correction: my post wasn't in the last VB thread, but the one before that. Here - [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

74 vagabond trader  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:58:28am

[Link: www.adl.org...]

From ADL, but fascinating and repugnant.Watch those numbers.

75 Shelbourne  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:58:42am

re: #61 stvip

re: #50 Shelbourne

Great!

[Link: yelloman1.blogspot.com...]

Of course, I don't expect you to translate all of it (are you Dutch, by the way?) - just find the worst.

Also, there's a 2004 documentary: "documentaire : "la face cachee du Vlaams blok" ("The Hidden Face of Vlaams Blok) with Dutch subtitles, which seems very revealing.
(although it's in French, I can't translate it from the audio - unless pronounced very slowly and clearly, spoken French is unintelligible to me, unlike written French)

1. No worries... I am happy to be of support. I will look at it tonight and post the translation in a few hours.

2. Yes, I am Dutch. Allthough I lived in Ireland over the past 2.5 years, me wife and I have decided to return in a couple of weeks.

However, if things get worse, you will see me begging here for a greencard for a multilingual customer service manager role in the States in a couple of years ;)

76 looking closely  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:59:20am
77 empills  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:59:53am

OT- UFO boy to hold press conference at approx. 3 est to explain which of his alien leaders told him to push for impeachment of Cheney

78 Piglet-U93  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:59:56am

re: #46 Ringo the Gringo

Another (what is now a normal) day of death in the post-paradise country of Thailand. As much as I respect the king of Thailand he appears to be clueless when it comes to the agenda of Islam. I wish someone would enlighten him but I guess I expect to much sometimes.

79 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:00:41pm

Al Qaeda Spreading Fast Across Europe, MI5 Says

At the end of the day........

80 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:00:50pm

re: #61 stvip

the video you mention is the same video I posted at my blog in the first post

81 nolocon  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:01:31pm

re: #76 looking closely

Hate to go OT here, but I can't resist.
John Kerry, four years later, finally ready to rebut "Swift Boat"ers

Yep ... he's doing it at a joint news conference with OJ where they'll also announce the Real Killers of Ron and Nicole.

82 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:01:46pm

I find the judge cartoon most telling- poor vlaams blok was a victim of a Free Mason-nazi hating-black loving-euro leftist judge. Why- they're oppressed! It's a conspiracy against them! Whatever. I find the inclusion of the Free Mason symbol to be another step on the fascist scale- creating a scape-goat after painting yourself as the victim. Basically- "it's not our fault we're nazis- it's their fault for being Free Masons".

83 Eowyn2  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:01:49pm

re: #75 Shelbourne

we have ways of making people hire you.

84 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:02:05pm

re: #74 vagabond trader

[Link: www.adl.org...]

From ADL, but fascinating and repugnant.Watch those numbers.

I read it yesterday. The numbers thing was a little odd to me. I've never seen most of them before. The symbols are most intreguing. Some, you'd never think of as facist symbols, while others are very obvious.

85 Capitalist Tool  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:02:13pm

re: #76 looking closely

Hate to go OT here, but I can't resist.

John Kerry, four years later, finally ready to rebut "Swift Boat"ers

Still breathlessly awaiting said info-

86 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:03:10pm

re: #82 Sharmuta

Yep, the cartoon says almost everthing one needs to know about them, who they are, and what they stand for.

87 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:03:32pm
88 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:04:00pm

Colonizing Barnard

Post modernism gone wild.

89 Pvt Bin Jammin  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:04:40pm

I just wonder when we are going to start getting our paychecks from the Free Masons. LOL

90 JamesTKirk  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:05:03pm

re: #89 Pvt Bin Jammin

I just wonder when we are going to start getting our paychecks from the Free Masons. LOL

Read the fine print on the stub.

91 Dianna  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:05:05pm

re: #41 Honorary Yooper

Whatever happened to: "righty-tighty, lefty-loosey"?

92 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:05:39pm
93 BigPapa  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:05:40pm

now THAT is funny.

Do Freemason's have a union?

94 Pvt Bin Jammin  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:06:00pm

re: #90 JamesTKirk

Tx for the warning.

95 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:06:19pm

re: #86 Honorary Yooper

And this is in the youth magazine. They're targeting the children with this disgusting propaganda- sowing distrust and hatred into the next generation. Sick!

96 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:06:26pm

re: #71 rappmandu

I suspect they'd much rather this go away. Remember the Shire interview with Dewinter last week. They tried like hell to keep that from getting out.

97 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:06:30pm
98 vagabond trader  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:06:31pm

re: #84 Honorary Yooper

Yes,weird to us but code to them. Bet a lot of it has its origins in prison speak. Saw a show about the Aryan Brotherhood and the stuff they got away with in max security was chilling.They have even taken over the innocent shamrock as their own with the number 6 on each of the three leaves.Yeccchh!

99 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:06:38pm

Islamo-facism and the death of feminism

Islamo-facism is a term originally used by moderate Muslims both in Iran and Algeria in the 1970s (and still used today) to describe the efforts by radical Muslim (clerics) to thwart efforts toward equality, moderation, democracy and freedom of religion.

Bush was president AND a moderate Muslim during the 70s?

100 Piglet-U93  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:06:59pm

re: #91 Dianna

re: #41 Honorary Yooper

Whatever happened to: "righty-tighty, lefty-loosey"?

Obviously, their nuts have fallen off and are now missing.

101 Pvt Bin Jammin  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:07:11pm

re: #92 buzzsawmonkey

LOL

102 jcm  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:07:24pm

Soon LFG will take it's place with the Illuminati, Bildergers, Trilateral Commission at the very top of the world order.

BAWHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

103 stvip  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:07:48pm

re: #80 BabbaZee

the video you mention is the same video I posted at my blog in the first post

Ah, I see. I found it at Yelloman's site myself. What's the status of your attempt to obtain a transcript?

104 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:07:53pm

I never understood Carpenteraphobia.

105 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:07:56pm

re: #90 JamesTKirk

re: #89 Pvt Bin Jammin


I just wonder when we are going to start getting our paychecks from the Free Masons. LOL

Read the fine print on the stub.

Yeah, we get them every 29th of February in a year that does not divide by 4.

106 Dianna  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:08:23pm

re: #59 Fenway_Nation

In my experience, it doesn't take many extremists (or criminals) to make a place dangerous and unpleasant.

107 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:08:55pm
108 debutaunt  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:09:39pm

105 Honorary Yooper 11/06/07 12:07:56 pm reply quote report 0

re: #90 JamesTKirk

re: #89 Pvt Bin Jammin


I just wonder when we are going to start getting our paychecks from the Free Masons. LOL

Read the fine print on the stub.
Yeah, we get them every 29th of February in a year that does not divide by 4.


Hold that thought - I have to replace the batteries in my calculator.

re: #105 Honorary Yooper

109 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:10:06pm

re: #95 Sharmuta

re: #86 Honorary Yooper

And this is in the youth magazine. They're targeting the children with this disgusting propaganda- sowing distrust and hatred into the next generation. Sick!

It's little different than that Bumblebee of death of whatever it is on Pali TV. Indoctrinate when young, malleable, and vulnerable.

110 zuckerlilly  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:11:15pm
111 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:12:26pm

re: #102 jcm

Soon LFG will take it's place with the Illuminati, Bildergers, Trilateral Commission at the very top of the world order.

BAWHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Next thing you know, we'll have to expand that chamber below DIA.

112 nolocon  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:12:33pm

Freemasons?

Freemasons are regarded by many as influential in the founding and promotion of the KKK.

Pro-fascist / anti-fascist ... no one can make up their minds.

113 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:14:11pm

re: #112 nolocon

Freemasons?

Freemasons are regarded by many as influential in the founding and promotion of the KKK.

Pro-fascist / anti-fascist ... no one can make up their minds.

I'm sure Robert Byrd would know.

114 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:14:32pm

re: #103 stvip

I keep loosing Dutch translators
no one can stomach it,
that video is alot to ask someone to do for free
ironically some has already been done for us

can you help?

115 Eowyn2  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:14:56pm

re: #82 Sharmuta

I find the judge cartoon most telling- poor vlaams blok was a victim of a Free Mason-nazi hating-black loving-euro leftist judge. Why- they're oppressed! It's a conspiracy against them! Whatever. I find the inclusion of the Free Mason symbol to be another step on the fascist scale- creating a scape-goat after painting yourself as the victim. Basically- "it's not our fault we're nazis- it's their fault for being Free Masons".


Its the ruling 500 of the world. The Free Mason society, slowly and secretly plotting in dank underground tunnels with open light bulbs hanging from wires in the ceiling, the plans (at the last one I attended) were to have VB enslaved to our Jewish brethren. now i must kill you

116 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:15:34pm
117 Piglet-U93  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:15:38pm

Ron Paul is about to speak on FNC. UUgggghh, I can't wait.

118 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:15:46pm

re: #110 zuckerlilly

Very interesting comments here

They choose to see what they want to see and fail to see the rest.

To those commenters on Gates of Vienna, what does this rat and the cartoon above mean to you?

We're waiting for your answers - operators are standing by.

119 debutaunt  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:16:43pm

re: #112 nolocon
#112 nolocon 11/06/07 12:12:33 pm reply quote report 0

Freemasons?

Freemasons are regarded by many as influential in the founding and promotion of the KKK.

Pro-fascist / anti-fascist ... no one can make up their minds.

Hey wait a second. I'll defend to the death the quality of their jars!

120 stvip  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:17:13pm

re: #75 Shelbourne

How bad are things that you're considering leaving? I once considered taking my M.Sc studies in Delft University (am Israeli).

Your plate is probably full, but another site to check out:
Anti-Fascistisch Front / Verzet - [Link: aff.skynetblogs.be...]

Also, those who followed the story have seen the "and yes, we choose a white europe!" quote. Try viewing the video of that speech - the way he shouts it, and the crowd's reaction is opprobrious.

121 Sponge  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:17:58pm

Fox Interviewing rupaul now.....

122 Dianna  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:18:45pm

re: #100 Piglet-U93

That, or they're off their nuts. Not sure which.

123 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:19:42pm

OK, what's up with the Freemasons?

124 Sponge  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:19:46pm

"our campaign is self propelled....as long as that keeps happening, we're winning...."

125 lurking faith  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:19:46pm

re: #49 coquimbojoe

Carridine was around last night.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

126 Eowyn2  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:19:58pm

re: #102 jcm

Soon LFG will take it's place with the Illuminati, Bildergers, Trilateral Commission at the very top of the world order.

BAWHAHAHAHAHAHAH!


and we will bask in lizard glory.

127 Sponge  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:20:18pm

"we win the after debate polls, now we have more money....people have to take that seriously"

128 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:20:26pm

re: #112 nolocon

Nathan Bedford Forrest.

129 Sponge  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:21:18pm

"We'll take away the money given to Pakistan untill they do what we need. Change our foreign policy and we'll be looked at better in the rest of the world"

130 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:21:25pm
131 jcm  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:21:30pm

re: #126 Eowyn2

re: #102 jcm

Soon LFG will take it's place with the Illuminati, Bildergers, Trilateral Commission at the very top of the world order.

BAWHAHAHAHAHAHAH!


and we will bask in lizard glory.

It's nice being so powerful.... now if I can find someone to do the damn dishes.

132 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:21:38pm
133 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:22:32pm

re: #109 Honorary Yooper

Indoctrinate when young, malleable, and vulnerable.

At what age does being young, malleable, and vulnerable stop? I find this more sinister than nahoul the killer bee. With the bee we expect that- he's propagating the koran. This cartoon is invoking sympathy for a "wrongfully persecuted" party while framing the "oppressor" with symbology. It's a very fascist ploy coming from an unexpected quarter- one that wants legitimacy at our expense.

134 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:23:35pm
135 Sponge  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:23:36pm

re: #130 song_and_dance_man

re: #127 Sponge


"we win the after debate polls, now we have more money....people have to take that seriously"

The song "If I only had a Brain" comes to mind.

Kind of what I thought while watching the interview.......

Oh, and he's a 'Constitutionist....a Liberatarian and a Republican.....'

136 zuckerlilly  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:23:57pm

re: #118 Honorary Yooper

re: #110 zuckerlilly


Very interesting comments here

They choose to see what they want to see and fail to see the rest.

To those commenters on Gates of Vienna, what does this rat and the cartoon above mean to you?

We're waiting for your answers - operators are standing by.

You bite the wrong one ;-)

137 Dianna  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:25:51pm

re: #123 Ben Hur

Curiously, people take The Protocols and claim they're masonic. A prime example would be Stephen Knight's book on the Ripper.

Masons are frequently the subject of conspiracy theory; that was more popular in the 19th Century than later, though you can still run across it.

There were, in the US, a series of hysterical outbreaks against the masons. It rather alternated with anti-Catholic hysteria, which tended to make me scratch my head.

138 Piglet-U93  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:26:37pm

FNC: Ron Paul tells Musharraf to get lost, cut all aid to Pakistan. I disagree. I believe Musharraf will appoint new judges willing to fight the Islamic radicals and un-suspend the constitution.

139 rappmandu  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:26:44pm

Is it possible that the Law of Unintended Consequences applies to further engaging in discussion with VB and their supporters? Has not necessary and sufficient evidence been put forth as to their bona fides? I'm not saying ignore them or never talk about them. I am saying they are on the Watch List and warrant close monitoring. And I am saying this enemy is completely nefarious.

What could be some unintended negative consequences for LGF?

140 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:26:54pm

re: #137 Dianna

But they were Carpenters no? Travelling around?

I'd rather hear the explanation from my homies than Google.

141 stvip  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:27:18pm

re: #114 BabbaZee

that video is alot to ask someone to do for free

I don't expect someone to translate everything (unless we can distribute the work among many people, each one doing a few minutes). Only the best (i.e: worst) parts, perhaps.


can you help?

In what way?

I tried with the meeting video subtitles (TOW the original "70 points plan" document). I don't care what bias the editor may have, I think it gives a very unflattering, but honest, expose of DeWinter.

142 konservo  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:27:58pm

re: #110 zuckerlilly

Finally, an explanation of why '1389' keeps posting the same OT comment about the "Croatian neo-Nazi rock star." 1389 should keep in mind that we are all aware of neo-Nazi, however the VB and the Sweden Dems are being scrutinized because they are taking advantage of the counter-jihad movement.

143 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:29:08pm

re: #114 BabbaZee

Interesting that they mention Bart Debie in that too.....

Clearly it is a political assissanation IMHO, Borgerhout in Antwerpen is crime ridden and have got a large amount of Muslim immigrants and Bart Debie is an advicer on issues of Crime, prevention and security to VB.
The ‘documentary’ tells he hasn’t been charged yet and nothing come up on google either - Except wiki.

That's a big weak point. I don't speak Dutch and even I could figure out what his deal is.

144 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:29:43pm
145 stvip  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:29:51pm

re: #137 Dianna

Those people know how to measure and replicate a 90 degrees angle!
They are not to be trusted.
Before you know it, they will get perpendicular with you.

146 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:29:58pm

re: #133 Sharmuta

re: #109 Honorary Yooper


Indoctrinate when young, malleable, and vulnerable.

At what age does being young, malleable, and vulnerable stop? I find this more sinister than nahoul the killer bee. With the bee we expect that- he's propagating the koran. This cartoon is invoking sympathy for a "wrongfully persecuted" party while framing the "oppressor" with symbology. It's a very fascist ploy coming from an unexpected quarter- one that wants legitimacy at our expense.

That's a good question, Shar. I don't know. However, as we've seen in the ME with the Palis, it is reinforced in other ways in adulthood. The Soviets had their ways of reinforcement, as did the Nazis. I would guess that age ends when you've successfully steeled the kids' resolve and programmed them not to accept any other ideology. It's disgusting, IMHO, teaching kids to hate.

They've asked for legitimacy at our expense before. Hitler and the Nazis were supposed to be the saviours of Europe against the Communists. We all saw how that drama played out. Only a few, like Churchill saw them for what they were. Now they're pissed that we see them for what they are.

And I thank Charles and BabbaZee for exposing this to the light.

147 Kenneth  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:30:53pm
148 coquimbojoe  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:31:21pm

re: #134 Ben Hur

wedgie-proof underwear

"..what are you doing standing there with his underwear in your hands..."

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that....

/Did I write that out loud?

149 zombie  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:32:46pm

Charles, a tiny nitpicking detail that might help you gain a smidgen of credibility with the Belgians: you use the phrase "agents provocateur" in your intro, but it should be "agents provocateurs" with an s.

My high-school French comes in handy at last!

150 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:32:50pm
151 Dianna  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:32:53pm

re: #140 Ben Hur

A mason is a stone-worker, not a carpenter. In the medieval era, particularly, it was a highly skilled craft.

Legendarily, masons had to travel to work sites (that's only a little true; most forts, castles and cathedrals were very long-term sites), and, because it was so hard to verify someone's credentials, the masons are supposed to have created rituals and passwords that would reveal whether someone had the training or not. This is at least partially true, but a great deal has been built on this slender base.

There's a lot more, which I'd be happy to provide links to. But that's enough to be going on with.

152 Ringo the Gringo  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:33:56pm

I always like this painting of George Washington all decked out in his Free-Masonry finest.

153 Dianna  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:34:29pm

re: #145 stvip

I'm more worried about the parallels!

154 coquimbojoe  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:36:02pm

re: #87 song_and_dance_man

re: #76 looking closely

Hate to go OT here, but I can't resist.

John Kerry, four years later, finally ready to rebut "Swift Boat"ers


Can't wait to miss it.

"I have no doubt at all that some of the people involved on the other side don’t care about the truth, think nothing about distorting it, will not hesitate to say and do whatever they think is necessary to win,'' Kerry told the newspaper. "But I think we are now much more prepared and savvy about those kind of things, and certainly in my own involvement, I will make certain that people don’t get away with that.''

Maybe he was in a swift boat on denial when he said that.....

/Get it? De-Nial, like de Nile.... See its funny because....nevermind.

155 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:36:34pm
156 Salem  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:36:34pm

Well, I read The Hiram key and...I have nothing to add, really...

157 EC Marm  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:36:50pm

re: #150 buzzsawmonkey

Six-pack Ab Santa!
Buff Santa!
Britney Spears for Mrs. Claus!


Hey, buff Santa wanna be's - This Christmas, all I want is Mecca, ok?

/ where's Mandy?

158 ContraJihadi  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:37:15pm

Those who defend VB point out that much of the criticism comes from the left, who partisans may be planting false flags. It is true that just because a socialist calls a party "right wing," that doesn't it itself mean that the party is fascist as we understand the term. But nobody who has defended VB has given an exculpatory answer (or any at all, really) about the Odin's Cross in the "map" film or in the youth journal's picture of the rat.

It is though none of them wants to confront this issue. This raises my suspicious too. It may be that many, perhaps most, of the Europeans on the street who support VB are just patriots concerned about the threat jihad presents to the civil order and to the culture, but I cannot dismiss my doubts about the leaders.

159 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:37:22pm
160 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:37:52pm

re: #146 Honorary Yooper

I agree with you. Imagine what our understanding of this situation would be had not Charles not been cautious and inquisitive, because as it turns out- Charles and all the minions working on this have shone a much needed light on a roach we didn't expect to find.

161 Dianna  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:38:47pm

re: #155 buzzsawmonkey

Chartres took closer to two and a half centuries; it didn't help that one of the towers fell down.

The Cathedrals were amazing creations, and say a lot about the medieval worldview.

162 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:39:20pm

re: #151 Dianna

They sound like a scary bunch!

World wide conspiracy of stone workers.

163 Dianna  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:39:23pm

re: #156 Salem

You did?!

When did you start laughing hysterically?

164 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:39:27pm

re: #160 Sharmuta

Minus one "not".

165 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:39:45pm

re: #157 EC Marm

re: #150 buzzsawmonkey


Six-pack Ab Santa!
Buff Santa!
Britney Spears for Mrs. Claus!

Hey, buff Santa wanna be's - This Christmas, all I want is Mecca, ok?

/ where's Mandy?

Oh, my.

166 Beagle  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:39:57pm
Freemasons are regarded by many as influential in the founding and promotion of the KKK.


Don't forget protecting the holy bloodline, with aliens, and turning Christian children to the devil, while controlling your mind.

Some people should avail themselves of an Internet search before tossing out the latest juicy rumor.

167 zombie  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:40:15pm

re: #155 buzzsawmonkey

if you are going to build a cathedral the old-fashioned way it is at least a hundred and fifty year undertaking.

That was in the pre-hod days. WIth the invention of the hod -- one of mankind's greatest inventions, by the way -- they could crank out those cathedrals in under 80 years!

Now that's progress!

168 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:40:48pm

re: #102 jcm

Soon LFG will take it's place with the Illuminati, Bildergers, Trilateral Commission at the very top of the world order.

BAWHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Wait a minute. How far up the Totem pole do we go before we have to start paying minions?

169 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:40:56pm
170 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:40:56pm
171 coquimbojoe  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:41:22pm

re: #159 Ben Hur

First person; waterboard demonstration

What Bozos.

What a bunch of whiny wimpy pieces of crap! The chick sounded like she had practiced that, probably as a wanna be dominatrix. It probably would be much more effective without someone screaming at you.....or, at least her.

172 Red Sock  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:41:35pm

Is this video of Filip deWinter in a (very recent!) Dutch talkshow already posted before?

On the question what would happen if one of his daughters was either involved in a lesbian relationship, in love with a Moroccan guy or a black guy: "If that would be the case, something must have gone wrong in their education - I didn't raise them that way"

There are numerous other videos available of deWinter making these kind of racist remarks, thinking white people are superior to black people.

The only strange thing is that after this quote on this show, he immediately says there is nothing wrong with black people and that race and colour doesn't play any role, that it has nothing to do with that!

173 jcm  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:41:52pm

re: #159 Ben Hur

First person; waterboard demonstration

What Bozos.

Look at the towel when they take it off his face. It had a curved shield of some kind diverting the water.

Those who water board under go water boarding as part of the training.
Some SERE students get water boarded.

174 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:42:07pm

re: #141 stvip

can you distribute it among some people? Do you know enough Dutch speakers to do that?

and yes I agree with what you say n the 2nd half of your post
even without language the images are instructive to say the least

175 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:42:39pm

re: #138 Piglet-U93

Musharraf has already installed his own judges to the Supreme Court. Whether they're effective or not remains to be seen. The previous Chief Justice isn't a happy camper, nor are the lawyers who were sympathetic to them.

Musharraf came to power via a coup, and he's busy reshuffling his power by engaging in the current crackdown. The Pakistani government was supposed to devolve from military to civilian control, but Musharraf has been slow to do it - claiming the Islamist threat as the key reason he's engaged in the current activities - suspending the constitution, tossing the judges, and throwing thousands of demonstrators into jail.

Too bad he keeps missing the mark and isn't going after the Islamists hard enough.

176 Dianna  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:42:53pm

re: #162 Ben Hur

Oh, it's not the operative masons that get the conspiracists' knickers in a twist! It's the speculative ones, who are dedicated to charity, brotherhood, helping each other along in business, and good dinners.

You know, like the Shriners? Little cars, red hats, hospitals for crippled children and all that?

Or the Rosicrucians, even! They have a museum in San Jose.

177 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:43:16pm
178 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:43:18pm

re: #143 Killgore Trout
BD is a very shadowy figure I have been working on his connections deeply

I'll get to him too

179 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:43:31pm

Danish Party Threatened by Palestinian Militants

A right-wing Danish political party has been threatened by the Palestinian terror group al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade for using an image of the Prophet Muhammad in its campaign literature. The party wanted to show its commitment to free speech.

Sorry to ruin your right-wing Danish Party.

/al-Forrest Mohamed Gump.

180 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:43:48pm
181 Deseeded  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:44:42pm

re: #168 CyanSnowHawk

re: #102 jcm


Soon LFG will take it's place with the Illuminati, Bildergers, Trilateral Commission at the very top of the world order.

BAWHAHAHAHAHAHAH!


Wait a minute. How far up the Totem pole do we go before we have to start paying minions?

I'm not sure, but I hear rumors of "The Protocols of the Lizards of LGF" being written as we speak...

182 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:44:47pm
183 jcm  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:45:13pm

re: #176 Dianna

re: #162 Ben Hur

Oh, it's not the operative masons that get the conspiracists' knickers in a twist! It's the speculative ones, who are dedicated to charity, brotherhood, helping each other along in business, and good dinners.

You know, like the Shriners? Little cars, red hats, hospitals for crippled children and all that?

Or the Rosicrucians, even! They have a museum in San Jose.

It the secret handshake. Folks get envious they don't have a secret handshake.

We need a secret Lizard tail shake.

184 Dianna  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:45:14pm

re: #166 Beagle

Ah, the masons! An endless, fruitful source of hysterical conspiracy theory; I will be adding more about masons to my "crank literature" shelf as soon as I get a little more breathing room.

There should be a way to earn a Ph.D. in crankery. Really. There's so much of it, and it's so much fun.

185 coquimbojoe  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:45:58pm

re: #173 jcm

re: #159 Ben Hur

First person; waterboard demonstration

What Bozos.

Look at the towel when they take it off his face. It had a curved shield of some kind diverting the water.

Those who water board under go water boarding as part of the training.
Some SERE students get water boarded.

Great catch. What lying, weasely assholes. That dude was complaining about the horror, but in reality, they couldn't even fake it right. Hey AP, remember what happens to those caught faking things....

Next.

186 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:46:17pm
187 Kenneth  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:47:22pm

re: #159 Ben Hur

I wonder if they will demonstrate a beheading on themselves too?

188 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:47:42pm
189 coquimbojoe  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:47:54pm

re: #181 Deseeded

re: #168 CyanSnowHawk

re: #102 jcm


Soon LFG will take it's place with the Illuminati, Bildergers, Trilateral Commission at the very top of the world order.BAWHAHAHAHAHAHAH!


Wait a minute. How far up the Totem pole do we go before we have to start paying minions?

I'm not sure, but I hear rumors of "The Protocols of the Lizards of LGF" being written as we speak...

The Bilderbergers have a great health plan. And match up to 6% on your 401k. I'm looking forward to that, plus free soda and a pinball machine in the basement.

190 konservo  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:48:18pm

re: #158 ContraJihadi

Here's a comment at the GoV from a Vlaams Belang member who claims that "Debunking Charles Johnson is Easy as Pie"

I haven't had time to read the whole thing, but it seems that Vlaams Belangsters are turning to the bj and the GoV for 'proof' that they are not WN parties.

191 coquimbojoe  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:48:55pm

re: #188 song_and_dance_man

It. Is. Stunning.

192 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:48:59pm

re: #187 Kenneth

re: #159 Ben Hur

I wonder if they will demonstrate a beheading on themselves too?

How can they demonstrate on what they lack?

193 Dianna  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:49:26pm

re: #183 jcm

Let's just appropriate the Master Mason's grand sign of distress. It's really simple. Plus, a lot of Mormons would also recognize it if we ever needed help.

194 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:49:37pm

re: #179 Ben Hur

Danish Party Threatened by Palestinian Militants

A right-wing Danish political party has been threatened by the Palestinian terror group al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade for using an image of the Prophet Muhammad in its campaign literature. The party wanted to show its commitment to free speech.

Sorry to ruin your right-wing Danish Party.

/al-Forrest Mohamed Gump.

I've been looking into that party more. They're listed at wiki as being right-wing populist, and being listed with other european parties such as the bnp and....vlaams belang.

195 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:49:47pm

re: #186 taxfreekiller

This connects to us.

Deeply.
It is important to expose it before the next election.
I plan to continue demonstrating that post by post at my blog for the foreseeable future.

gotta go see
I'll check back in later

196 Salem  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:49:49pm

re: #163 Dianna

It certainly didn't leave me with the impression that the Freemasons are particularly influential at the present time. It was an interesting read, though utterly biased, having been written by a Freemason. And it didn't examine modern day Freemasonry in Europe by my recollection. The idea of them being political titans anywhere seems silly, but I really just don't know.

197 Kenneth  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:50:16pm

re: #173 jcm

Good call: you can see the guy's face is dry when they remove the towel. So it's a fake but real pretend-demonstration.

198 coquimbojoe  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:50:25pm

re: #190 konservo

re: #158 ContraJihadi

Here's a comment at the GoV from a Vlaams Belang member who claims that "Debunking Charles Johnson is Easy as Pie"

I haven't had time to read the whole thing, but it seems that Vlaams Belangsters are turning to the bj and the GoV for 'proof' that they are not WN parties.

Please bring the pie. Dutch apple would be nice.

/Get it? 'Cause they're Flemish. I kill myself.....

199 J.S.  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:51:59pm

re: #183 jcm

The National Post (a couple of weeks ago) presented pictures of all the "secret" hand-shakes of Masons...Cat's otta de bag.

200 Piglet-U93  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:52:11pm

re: #173 jcm

re: #159 Ben Hur

First person; waterboard demonstration

What Bozos.

Look at the towel when they take it off his face. It had a curved shield of some kind diverting the water.

Those who water board under go water boarding as part of the training.
Some SERE students get water boarded.

I watched the video 3 times - yes, it had a sheild protecting the recipient from the water. Nice catch!

201 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:52:40pm

re: #189 coquimbojoe

I hope they don't kick people out for abusing the soda privilege.

202 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:52:52pm
203 FriarsTale  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:53:17pm

what is it with the freemasons anyway?
are they still around?

I know they built the Statue of Liberty, but what have they done lately?
[Link: freemasonrywatch.org...]

204 DeafDog  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:53:21pm

re: #159 Ben Hur

Al Queada is famous for using power drills on various body parts and beheading. If they do a compare and contrast with a power drill interrogations and beheading, and they still say that waterboarding is awful, then they are on to something.

205 stvip  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:54:12pm

re: #153 Dianna

I'm more worried about the parallels!

Get perpendicular!

(yes, it's a real advert of a real technology)

Anyhow, you have it all wrong about the Freemasons.
Allow me to open your eyes:
A secret, all-powerful conspiring society. And Islamism is on the rise.
What is the preferred capital punishment in Islam? That's right - stone-throwing! And who do you think will provide for this lucrative market of just-right stones? A-ha! I myself, as an act of defiance, have built my house devoid of any right angles.

206 Dianna  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:55:27pm

re: #196 Salem

The Hiram Key was one of the funniest pieces of nonsense it's ever been my privelege to read. Completely a-historic, ridiculous, written by two guys whose combined knowledge of actual history wouldn't have sufficed to fill a very thin pamphlet.

The masons were, and are, a fraternal organization; they help each other along in business and government (or used to - they're dying); there's a little mystical overlay and some "secret" ceremonies (which anyone can find these days).

As the Catholic Church complains, they take great oaths for trivial purposes.

But it's fun for guys, who really seem to need at least a little of the "No Girls Allowed, Top Secret!" in their lives.

207 jehu  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:55:40pm

Well this eliminates any skepticism (yeah, I know "about time!") I had that this was a small thing just at the top. Great...fight Islamofacism by becoming NAZIS. And it really put me through it since I hate Islamofacism so much I found myself edging toward sympathy with the Fjordman position.

Superb work Charles, Babba, and probably others. I wonder when or if the MSM will even notice? It also showed me I cannot hate anyone or you will eventually be tempted to enlist haters to your cause.

Back to the Biblical principle of hating the sin but not the sinner. This is so complicated and dangerous I think everyone will be confronted with whether they will walk in Biblical principles or not; I never thought it would get this clear as a line being drawn. Crap I can no longer even hate the Left who I consider those that have eaten the foundations of Western Civilization and allowed these opportunistic infections to take hold.

I should have known better, any devotion to an ideology seems to always lead to evil, no matter how good that ideology looks or sounds. Note the hate on the Left, how for a cause they have become real haters while not even noticing. Nothing seems to produce evil in the human heart like the idea that you are RIGHT! Especially right in a "greater cause." There are no "greater causes", there is only relating to individuals one at a time, day by day.

208 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:56:26pm
209 rappmandu  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:56:48pm

Who holds back the electric car?
Who makes Steve Gutenberg a star?

We do!
We do!

/Simpsons

210 Salem  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:57:03pm

re: #206 Dianna

Oh, so they can't really trace their lineage back to the Tower of Babel? How disillusioning!

211 Macker  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:57:10pm

re: #49 coquimbojoe

I'm sending Carridine a status request. Hopefully, he will check back in real soon!

re: #77 empills

The Ferengi, perhaps.

212 realwest  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:57:18pm

re: #54 Silhouette Ya mean like the Right Reverends Jackson and Sharpton?!

213 Pawn of the Oppressor  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:57:47pm

re: #154 coquimbojoe


"I have no doubt at all that some of the people involved on the other side don’t care about the truth, think nothing about distorting it, will not hesitate to say and do whatever they think is necessary to win,'' Kerry told the newspaper. "But I think we are now much more prepared and savvy about those kind of things, and certainly in my own involvement, I will make certain that people don’t get away with that.''

Maybe he was in a swift boat on denial when he said that.....

/Get it? De-Nial, like de Nile.... See its funny because....nevermind.

What I find funny is that he still hasn't learned to say anything in less than fifty words. Hey John, try it this way:

"My detractors were lying. I should have confronted them early. They won't get away with it again."

See? No elaborate verbal circumlocution, just straightforward complete thoughts. Nuance-free. Easy!

214 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:58:46pm

re: #190 konservo

Interesting. About the flag....

And yes, I'd label these guys white supremacists. They amply use Celtic crosses, Odal runes and other (Neo)Nazi symbols, and they worship Flemish Waffen SS volunteers. To be sure, after some Internet rummaging I did find out that a handful of VJW members have ties with, or are also member of, the VB. I can only deplore this, and while I think it's a good thing the VB leadership almost from the beginning removed the (very few) VJW members from any post of importance, I'd rather like these idiots-stupid fucks-scumbags-morons-take your pick, to disappear from my party altogether.

Dewinter has the same symbol on his book shelf! Will he be trown out of the party? It's in their youth magazine and has been for years! Will the editors be fired?
He's full of shit.

215 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:59:00pm
216 Beagle  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:00:00pm

It's unfortunate actual Masons have to defend themselves. Just another plot...

America became home to a bunch of English Masons, many of them Founders. Then it spread everywhere Americans went for a time. Anti-Masonry eventually thinned the herd, so to speak. But it's amazingly benign in reality as compared to the many claims.

217 Golem Akbar  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:00:54pm

re: #190 konservo

re: #158 ContraJihadi

Here's a comment at the GoV from a Vlaams Belang member who claims that "Debunking Charles Johnson is Easy as Pie"

I haven't had time to read the whole thing, but it seems that Vlaams Belangsters are turning to the bj and the GoV for 'proof' that they are not WN parties.

It's simple. All they have to do is denounce racist and fascist ideology. Make statements that they are not for mass deportation. Make statements that they are not for white power, but embrace all races and creeds. Prove that they are not anti-democratic. They won't because they can't.

218 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:02:24pm

re: #190 konservo

The author leaves the first comment....

Yesterday I did a post which contained two inflammatory statements. The first was the title: "IF EUROPE IS TO SURVIVE, IT WILL HAVE TO DEPORT ALL MUSLIMS. REPEAT. ALL OF THEM." The second one could be found towards the end: "The cancer of islam must be eradicated."

A man should never take important decisions when he is angry. I took the decision to post these very harsh statements in a state of utmost anger. In the light of a new day, I now feel that the first statement is unfair towards a certain percentage of muslims - a rather small percentage though, I fear. With regards to the second statement, I feel compelled to say that even at the precise moment that I wrote it down, I only had in mind eradication of an ideology, not of people.

I guess that's what you get from the typical VB member.

219 NY Nana  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:03:50pm

If anyone has seen Pamela's blog today, she is not only delusional, but admiring Paul Belien, Brussels Journal, and doing an interview with him. WTF is wrong? Is she now a Zombie? (No, not our zombie!)

Jumped the shark? That is way too kind.

220 madisonsfriend  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:03:50pm

re: #204 DeafDog

I am not sure but I think the power drill is what Javier Bardem uses in No Country for Old Men. I am a wuss so the preview(5 minutes?) was pretty awful for me. I wonder if the filmmakers got the idea from Al- Queda.

221 Golem Akbar  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:04:11pm

re: #207 jehu
Absolutely 100% right. Well-said.

222 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:08:34pm

re: #176 Dianna

Troofers are apparently an old movement.

223 Render  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:09:08pm

About that part where they claim we, as a group, don't talk to Europeans...

Are they assuming they are the only Europeans that we have contact with?

===

I talk to Europeans daily via the international gaming community. Literally, by way of VOIP and multiple in-game communication channels.

At one point Europeans made up more than half of the gaming sub-clan that I belong too. Most of them are pro-war and anti-Islamofascists, and almost every single one of them had the same things to say about VB, SD, and BNP that we have since discovered.

VB, SD, and BNP are cleaned up, button-down nazi's.

NO
FURTHER
QUESTIONS,
R

224 realwest  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:09:13pm

re: #110 zuckerlilly Sorry but he lost me when he said this: " I don’t have a smidgen of proof for what I suspect, but here’s the story."
We don't generally allow that kind of crap on LGF. You want to theorize, that's fine, but to make statements, which you expect people to take seriously, requires research and documentation of the kind Charles (with help from BabbaZee and others) has provided by the ton.

225 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:09:57pm

OT:

Oh Dear. I'm afraid that I may have touched off a Ron Paul war at the San Diego Union Tribune website. All I did was call RP a dangerous crank.

My nic there is SnowHawk.

226 Dianna  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:10:13pm

re: #203 FriarsTale

They're still around.

The History Channel did a rather nice piece on the many and various tales and fears about the masons recently.

227 Kenneth  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:10:17pm

Waterboarding is a horrible experience. Which is why US interrogators use it in only the most dire cases. It is the "worst" thing that US interrogators are allowed to do. Please compare that to what Al Qaeda, the Iranian mullahs, the Palestinian terrorists, and the Taliban, do to thier captives. Waterboarding would be the nicest thing they do.

To date, only 3 people terrorists have been waterboarded by the US. Khalid Shiekh Mohammad, the 9-11 mastermind, is alledged to have been waterboarded and started talking after the first dunk. He gave up a ton of information regarding past and ongoing terrorism plots. In other words, waterboarding him saved innocent lives.

228 Render  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:10:43pm

re: #214 Killgore Trout

Roland Raes.

EVIDENCE,
R

229 Josephine  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:10:45pm

The language is often strange and the logic twisted in the articles attempting to refute what Charles Johnson (and some of his lizards) have found.

Now a blogger (GoV) is posting another blogger's blog as "crucial". And the crux of his argument is that:

"It is therefore at least possible that Charles Johnson has been taken in by disinformation."

I don't know who James Lewis is or why I should listen to him. (I can't find sufficient information on his blog.)

He starts off his "crucial" blog post with:

"I don’t have a smidgen of proof for what I suspect, but here’s the story."

I studied journalism in college a long time ago. One of my teachers always said, "Who said and who cares?" Meaning: why should anyone listen to what this person is saying and is anyone interested enough to read about it?

In this particular blog entry, James Lewis lost me in the first paragraph when he said he had zero proof of anything he was about to say. I persisted, though, because I have been reading as much as I can on LGF (thank you to everyone for your hard work) and was interested. He didn't convince me of a thing.

It seems to me that a lot of bloggers have decided that they are the new journalists of the new media. However, in cases such as this one, we are seeing that not all bloggers have the skills to qualify as researchers or journalists.

As someone else (Highrise) pointed out, reading the way some of these bloggers have presented this situation casts doubts on their ability to accurately portray any situation. The use of hyperbole and sweeping judgments has been an eye-opener for me.

Just because someone has an opinion that coincides with mine doesn't mean I can use his opinion as proof that I am right.

All Charles Johnson did was ask some honest questions and the insults and over-the-top accusations came flying.

LGF is investigating. Others are pontificating.

230 stvip  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:11:55pm

re: #174 BabbaZee

can you distribute it among some people? Do you know enough Dutch speakers to do that?

Unfortunately, I don't know a single Dutch speaker. That's why I asked if we had any in LGF in this thread.


Here's the video of the DeWinter speech.
"Eigen volk eerst" - "our people first". "een Vlaams Vlaanderen" - "A Flemish Flanders". "een blank Europea" - "A white Europe".

and yes I agree with what you say n the 2nd half of your post
even without language the images are instructive to say the least

In the second half I was referring to a video in which the text was translated, expounding about what he meant with "voor de toekomst" - "For later", and why the video editor focused on that bit.

All in all, with all the work Charles, Truumax, you, and others have contributed (and I much anticipate Shellbourne's contribution), I think it is obvious we must shun groups such as VB and SD, both for moral and practical reasons. Anything else we add would be just for the sake of completion, and the joy of exposing demagogic scumbags red-tongued.

231 jcm  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:12:16pm

Completely OT

BEWARE FALLING COWS!
(not Dave Barry, real news)

MANSON, Wash. (AP) - A Chelan County fire chief says a couple were lucky they weren't killed by a cow that fell off a cliff and smashed their minivan.

District 5 Chief Arnold Baker says they missed being killed by a matter of inches Sunday as they drove on Highway 150 near Manson.

The 600-pound cow fell about 200 feet and landed on the hood of the minivan carrying Charles Everson Jr. and his wife Linda of Westland, Mich., who were in the area celebrating their one-year wedding anniversary. They were checked at Lake Chelan Community Hospital as a precaution.

The van was heavily damaged, including a broken windshield.

Charles Everson says he kept repeating, "I don't believe this. I don't believe this."

The year-old cow had been reported missing by a breeder. It was euthanized at the scene.

232 Dianna  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:12:25pm

re: #210 Salem

Never mind the Tower of Babel, they can't even agree on the design of Solomon's temple!

Secret King-Making Rituals, forsooth!

233 realwest  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:13:05pm

re: #112 nolocon I frankly don't know many - hell any - people who think the Freemasons are linked to the KKK - any evidence you'd care to share with us?
Incidentally, iirc, something more than a third of our Founding Fathers were Freemasons.

234 stvip  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:14:29pm

re: #219 NY Nana


Jumped the shark? That is way too kind.

Joined the sharks.

235 Dianna  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:15:26pm

re: #222 Ben Hur

It's a conspiracy! is an age-old cry.

236 NY Nana  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:16:15pm

re: #234 stvip

Joined the sharks.

A much better description.

237 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:20:00pm

re: #202 taxfreekiller

I have studied Islam and Jihad intensely 6 years

I have to study this now, someone has to, it is too important

there are three enemies
and this one is the head of the snake

who taught the Grand Mufti the way of the new Jihad ?
Hitler.

Nazism & Neo Nazism is what I would define not only as a political movement but as a satanic religious cult

the Nazis can even be said to have initiated this jihad ...

Nazis are basically SOCIALISTS
(ie: like the left)
but they are esoteric socialists and the left are secular atheistic/communistic socialists

I'll get to what I mean by that at some point in one of the posts

anyway

the nazi white power worldwide movement exists
out side of
and independent of
the other two enemies
the whores of the left
and the beasts of jihad

as well as inside of both of them
at their most fundamental evil core

Not to be taken lightly any of this
and there is no deflecting me from it at this point

/back to the stove

238 J.S.  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:20:12pm

re: #110 zuckerlilly

Very interesting comments here

Lewis's post is another long-winded, conspiratorial spew. He is in need of an editor. Then, after about 2,000 words in excess (after advancing his conspiratorial "black-ops" "invasions of the Vlaams Beglang by government agents -- yeah, sure), the writer concludes with precisely the same point as Charles has been making. Namely (if you have the stamina to get to that final paragraph), it reads: "Vlaams Belang should clean up its public image, and explicitly denounce suspicious characters. The political benefits of doing that are clear. It is also the right and proper thing to do." And, as we all know here, that's not going to happen...Gosh, I wonder why (I don't need a sarc tag, do I?). (Days ago I noted that what the Vlaams Blok were -- it's what V. Belang is now. No difference -- other than in name).

239 Kenneth  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:22:32pm

re: #237 BabbaZee

Amen!

240 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:24:57pm
241 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:25:23pm

re: #230 stvip

agree and thank you

242 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:27:45pm

re: #240 taxfreekiller

no it is not about me
I have never made it about me TFK
and you know it

do not judge my motives based on the opinions you may have of other posters or bloggers

Why are you dissembling on this topic?

243 jcm  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:28:13pm

Tre: #237 BabbaZee

That's our Babba!

244 Piglet-U93  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:28:40pm

re: #218 Killgore Trout

re: #190 konservo

The author leaves the first comment....


Yesterday I did a post which contained two inflammatory statements. The first was the title: "IF EUROPE IS TO SURVIVE, IT WILL HAVE TO DEPORT ALL MUSLIMS. REPEAT. ALL OF THEM." The second one could be found towards the end: "The cancer of islam must be eradicated."A man should never take important decisions when he is angry. I took the decision to post these very harsh statements in a state of utmost anger. In the light of a new day, I now feel that the first statement is unfair towards a certain percentage of muslims - a rather small percentage though, I fear. With regards to the second statement, I feel compelled to say that even at the precise moment that I wrote it down, I only had in mind eradication of an ideology, not of people.

I guess that's what you get from the typical VB member.

Although, I am not allowed to say it. I agree with the upper case statements. If this gets me banded, so be it. Islam is NOT compatible with Western civilization and never will be. Islam's only goal is to dominate the world. Anyone who has studied the ideology of Islam knows this. Stop kidding yourselves about living in peace with Islam its never going to happen and you know it. Can anyone say cognitive dissonance?

245 Catttt  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:29:38pm

From the article:

One reason why the American Left is in such bad shape today is that they no longer bother to clean out their totalitarians. Conservatives are doing well today in part because William Buckley and others drew a sharp line against racists decades ago. Conservatives today are delighted to see Clarence Thomas and Bobby Jindal achieving high office, not just because they are good people, but also because their success declares to the world who we really are.

So it may be sensible to ask conservatives elsewhere to prove their good intentions, just as we need to demand that the Democrats throw out their totalitarians. Maybe Paul Belien should clarify his position on these issues. Vlaams Belang should clean up its public image, and explicitly denounce suspicious characters. The political benefits of doing that are clear. It is also the right and proper thing to do.

Part of the reason this is hard to wrap one's head around is that we can't see into VB's heart, can we? As an Amerian, I've got that "content of their character" thing going on in my head and heart when I look at a man like Bobby Jindal and get all happy that he's going to be governor of Louisiana.

Europeans don't seem to have that inclusivenes the way we do. America is a stew; IMHO, Europe is a buffet. It's easier for a parsnip to slip into a stew than a buffet, and if it does get in, it winds up in the "parsnips only" section.

246 spidly  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:29:39pm

#205 stvip


A higher coercivity medium is inherently thermally more stable, as stability is proportional to the product of bit (or magnetic grain) volume times the uniaxial anisotropy constant Ku, which in turn is higher for a material with a higher magnetic coercivity.

hmmmm, I think I like the cartoon explanation

247 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:30:20pm

BTW
the American thinker article is lazy ass crap or propaganda who knows which , and the least credible thing I have ever read there...
It reads like a gossip column and he gets half his shit wrong

for instance calling Tina of the SD in the uniform Nazi flag photo from expo a Vlaamser

more smoke for the blowing

248 littleoldlady  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:31:24pm
...the latest claim being floated out there is that I’ve been “taken in” by Belgian agents provocateurs, who have infiltrated the Vlaams Belang party for the purpose of discrediting it...

Paging Hollywood!

/oh wait...there's no writers!

Paging Robert Ludlum!

249 Highrise  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:32:23pm

re: #159 Ben Hur

First person; waterboard demonstration

What Bozos.


Let's see them demonstrate what poor innocent victims who go visit chop chop square have to go through.

/sarc

Idgits. STOP commiserating with the damn enemy who wishes to slay you..wake up!

250 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:35:30pm

thanks

kenneth and jcm

TFK .....
Don't break my heart. Remember... you are Apache


BBL

251 Sven Svenson  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:37:19pm

I don't know if anyone else has caught this since I don't want to go through over 200 comments. The symbol of Freemasonry is known as the SQUARE AND COMPASSES. It's not the compass and "ruler" - a king is a ruler, a rule/guage is something to measure with.

252 Kenneth  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:37:51pm

Loose Nukes In Pakistan

With the recent chaotic events in Pakistan, one has to ask what sort of options the United States has. The state of emergency in Pakistan has derailed plans for democracy, and risked the security of Pakistan's nuclear weapons. This is one of the classic situations where American ideals and American interests may diverge big time.

The big issue in all of this is the fact that Pakistan is a nuclear power, with as many as 95 nuclear warheads. Many of these designs are far more powerful than the first-generation devices the United States used in 1945, killing 140,000 people in two attacks. This is why stability and rationality in the Pakistani government is important. The problem is that stability may not be guaranteed... The other problem is Pakistan's history of coups. These can be bad enough due to the uncertainty of where a new government stands. Now, add the fact that nukes are involved.

The U.S. has few good options here. A commando raid to spirit the nukes out of the country, only works in the movies. An air strike to destroy them would leave highly radioactive wreckage, and make many enemies for the U.S. in Pakistan. A deal to insert U.S. security personnel might work, given the highly mobile American forces just across the border in Afghanistan, and off the coast on amphibious ships. There is serious planning going on, but there is no sure cure for this situation

What's happening in Pakistan right now scares the shit out of me. Seriously.

253 Salem  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:39:01pm

re: #232 Dianna

re: #210 Salem

Never mind the Tower of Babel, they can't even agree on the design of Solomon's temple!

Secret King-Making Rituals, forsooth!

Ah. Well, it's been over ten years since I read it, I think. Too bad. The Egypt king-making and star-chambers was the most interesting part for me. The Holy Grail/Templar stuff has always made my eyes glaze over, for some reason. I've been meaning to read a good Egypt history since then.

254 zuckerlilly  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:41:25pm

re: #224 realwest

re: #238 J.S.

Look here

maybe I should have used the tag

255 pingjockey  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:41:28pm

re: #231 jcmThat's about 20 miles from me. We were wondering if any teenagers were found at the scene. Cow tipping!

256 jeppo[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:41:39pm
257 zuckerlilly  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:42:03pm

verdammt

the 'sarc' tag

258 J.S.  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:42:56pm

re: #247 BabbaZee

I agree with assessment, BabbaZee. Can't believe it'd appear in the American Thinker (more articles like that one, and you'd have to rename it..The American Thunker..) O, and keep up the good work -- I read your posts when I get the time -- great insights! And research!

259 NY Nana  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:45:17pm

re: #252 Kenneth

Scares me, too.....very, very much. It is beginning to look like a lose-lose situation.

260 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:46:33pm

re: #256 jeppo


Jeppo

You have declined all along to challenge me or the preponderance of my posted evidence

WTF do you think you are accomplishing here at this point?

Your post is more ridiculous smoke blowing and refutes nothing.

your tongue is digging your grave

261 justnobody  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:47:17pm

In some languages, "masons" is simply a slur against Jews.

262 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:47:56pm

thanks JS

and Ken

Pakistan scares me too
and I ain't a-scared a-nuttin!

the food is burning probably!
run away babba
BBL

263 Kenneth  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:49:05pm

re: #259 NY Nana

We lose big-time if Al Qaeda get hold of even one of those 95 Pakistani nukes. Better that the US uses whatever force is necessary to prevent that from happening.

264 Thanos  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:49:20pm

re: #247 BabbaZee

BTW
the American thinker article is lazy ass crap or propaganda who knows which , and the least credible thing I have ever read there...
It reads like a gossip column and he gets half his shit wrong

for instance calling Tina of the SD in the uniform Nazi flag photo from expo a Vlaamser

more smoke for the blowing


Babba, I think it's an attempt to throw some folks a rope who happen to have fallen into a pit they dug.

265 Highrise  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:49:23pm

re: #219 NY Nana

If anyone has seen Pamela's blog today, she is not only delusional, but admiring Paul Belien, Brussels Journal, and doing an interview with him. WTF is wrong? Is she now a Zombie? (No, not our zombie!)

Jumped the shark? That is way too kind.

Nutcase, but then again, her posts here at LGF and at hot air have shown that she is whacked out and trying on purpose to discredit Charles, DISGUSTING! Yeah her apology really was genuine my arse!

The people who still post over there kissing her arse after all this stuff has come out, are disgusting. It's really too bad it came to this and that atlas herself CHOSE this path to burn bridges that she frankly didn't have to, but atlas laid her bed...........and isn't sorry for it either.

266 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:49:54pm

re: #256 jeppo

Can you think of any other political party anywhere that uses a rat as its logo?

The logo for this column is a rat with a fountain pen.

Did you want to try again?

267 J.S.  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:52:31pm

re: #254 zuckerlilly

But, but, but, you said "Very interesting comments here" -- didn't realize that was sarcasm...I was reading it "straight." Sorry about that..my mistake...

268 Thanos  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:55:06pm

re: #256 jeppo

Ah yes, the dreaded Vlaams Belang White Power Rat of Doom(tm). Let's take a another look at this crucial bit of "evidence" proving the inherent neo-Nazi, crypto-fascist evil of the VB.

First of all this "evidence" was presented with no translation of the accompanying text. Nor was the overall context of the cartoon rat and its meaning explained, or even discussed for that matter. But let's let that slide for now.

The damning "proof" is obviously the rat's armband, which clearly has a circle-Celtic-Odin's Cross on it. This symbol is also used by the White Power/Nationalist/Supremacist mob. But of course as the ADL notes, this cross should never be assumed to be a hate symbol divorced from other trappings of extremism. But for the sake of argument, let's say in this case it is a White Power symbol.

My questions to the good readership of LGF are: Why would the VB choose a White Power rat as their mascot in the first place? Can you think of any other political party anywhere that uses a rat as its logo? Did the Nazis glorify rats or something? And this is no cute and cuddly Mickey Mouse-type rodent, it's an ugly, mangy, disgusting sewer rat. You fine folks may look at the VB as such, but is this really how they see themselves?

And finally, why isn't this particular White Power rat, well, white? Explanations, please.

It's the particular logo and header used in several issues by their cartoonist, Frederick Pas, aka Fre
I have only eleven minutes til my next call so typing fast...
Devoid of other trappings....

You see the symbols with the judge in the other picture
You know the leaders of the groups past
You see them marching in early October in front of banners with the Lebensrune on them
You see them marching with other people wearing caps with the nazi runes
You ads and Links on their sites for VMO (Vlaams Militante Order or something like that. ) You can go to VMO and swastikas on their pages if that's convincing enough.
You can scroll through the same magazine and see other nazi signs
You can see the Odin's cross on Filips bookshelf...
I can go on and on and on with facts Jepppo. Let's do continue this later.

269 jcm  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:55:18pm

re: #255 pingjockey

re: #231 jcmThat's about 20 miles from me. We were wondering if any teenagers were found at the scene. Cow tipping!

Nice area, I'm stuck on the wet side.

270 Render  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:55:44pm

re: #256 jeppo

For the same reasons that a white power radio show would name itself "The Political Cesspool."

Self-mockery of their own acknowledged repugnance.

They know we find them disgusting, and they revel in it.

===

You've already admitted that Roland Raes is still a ranking member of VB.

YOU
LOSE,
R

271 zuckerlilly  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:55:46pm

re: #267 J.S.

re: #254 zuckerlilly

But, but, but, you said "Very interesting comments here" -- didn't realize that was sarcasm...I was reading it "straight." Sorry about that..my mistake...

no, sorry, mine ;-)

272 J.S.  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:56:43pm

re: #263 Kenneth

O, not to worrry, Kenneth. The Pentagon says that they've made sure (that's after 9/11) that all the Pakistani nukes (they estimate they've got 30 or so) have been dismantled, with all the separate pieces stored in separate, secret locations. So, it'd mean finding the pieces, then re-assembling them...And, that, according to the "officials" would be "difficult." (Actually, I agree, it's very scary...)

273 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:57:50pm
274 pingjockey  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:59:55pm

re: #269 jcm
Just watch out for the algoreacle acolytes.

275 jeppo[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:01:10pm
276 jcm  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:02:12pm

re: #274 pingjockey

re: #269 jcm
Just watch out for the algoreacle acolytes.

The W'04 sticker on my truck wards 'em off. It that doesn't work my USS Ronald Reagan hat gets 'em every time.

277 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:02:22pm

re: #275 jeppo

Consider the evidence.

278 jeppo[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:03:23pm
279 Thanos  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:03:27pm

Back again, the meeting is postponed until 30 after for a network change....

to continue .... you see that the organization that links VB with the other groups and that organizes the demonstrations, or "acties" is "Voorpost" -- aligned with the Nederlands and South African groups as well. You see that Voorposts flags are the Lebensrune, on a rifle when a man carries it, on a spear when a woman carries it. (Valkyrie for the slow...)

Now what other group runs around with flags on rifles? Let me think about this a minute....

280 marwan's daughter  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:03:33pm

re: #63 Ben Hur

Bono: Islamic Aggression 'Real and Grave' Threat, Media Silent

I want to be very, very clear, however: I understand and agree with the analysis of the problem. There is an imminent threat. It manifested itself on 9/11. It's real and grave. It is as serious a threat as Stalinism and National Socialism were. Let's not pretend it isn't.

Bono goes on to show that he does not engage in Bush Derangement Syndrome, despite the urgings of the Rolling Stone's anti-Bush reporter. In response to the reporter's statement that "But this Administration destroyed that." when they discussed the outpouring of support for the United States immediately following the attacks of Spetember 11, Bono says of President Bush,


There was a plan there, you know. I think the president genuinely felt that if we could prove a model of democracy and broad prosperity in the Middle East, it might defuse the situation.

Will it be Joo 2, or U Joo now?

That's good to hear. I'm a big fan of U2, and I do admire Bono's dedication to his cause. Glad to know he's not like the rest of the music industry.

re: #256 jeppo

Jeppo, you sound like the apologists for Mahmoud Ahmadinejad when he said "Israel should be wiped off the map" or the apologists for Hamas who say "it was just a metaphor" when they say "Death to Israel" or "Death to America". Your defense of VB is bulls***!

281 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:03:40pm

re: #275 jeppo

Discrediting the source- that's a tactic of what political side of the divide? The one they're accusing Charles of belonging to?

282 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:04:29pm

re: #275 oppej

CONSIDER

THE

SOURCE

J

(h/t Render)

You sir, are hardly Render. Babba has gone to a lot of trouble to find this info, and her sources, and Charles's sources are a lot more varied than you claim.

283 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:04:39pm

re: #278 jeppo

I have an idea what it means, yes. Sorry- I forgot my spoon today.

284 Highrise  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:04:46pm

re: #265 Highrise


atlas' comments btw at hotair was something along the lines of all that Charles does is *google*, in an attempt to discredit him to Hot Air posters. Atlas, about the fake apology......you go elsewhere to trash him?

/major disgusted after hotair esp. And kudos to the lizards that had accounts over there to set the posters that were anti Charles straight.

285 Highrise  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:07:15pm

re: #277 Killgore Trout

re: #275 jeppo

Consider the evidence.


Fat Chance hehe.

286 stvip  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:07:55pm

re: #256 jeppo

You haven't proved anything with that post (and let's be completely clear on this - the burden of proof is now on Vlaams Belang, not us; this point seems to consistently elude you). But suppose you are correct, and the rat has nothing to do with VB. Let's say it was made by a group opposing VB to mock them. What do you have to say about all the other evidence? I have yet to see a rebuttal from you beginning to approach having substance.
You seem to really want to believe in the rectitude of VB, so you begin by assuming their innocence, then demand proof of a courtroom standard. Perhaps a court could not convict them of wrongdoing (after all, that was the whole point of changing the name to "Vlaams Belang" from "Vlaams Blok" - work around the legal limitations by censoring their documents, obfuscating their beliefs and making sure they have plausible deniability). Need I insult your intelligence by pointing out why the procedures of a court do not apply here?
Furthermore, suppose, for the sake of the ridiculous argument, that they truly are not racist-fascist. It would still be a wrong move, in the practical sense of real-politik, to associate with them. Again, do I really need to point out why?

So why do you continue to cling to any faint hope, any evanescent shred of possible evidence, that they could be exonerated? We do not want them. We do not need them.

287 Highrise  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:09:50pm

re: #282 Honorary Yooper


Too true. And while Charles' first posts sure put up pretty damning evidence on why he was asking questions....I knew deep down that he had done his homework and more would be coming.

What has bothered me the most is those that argue in favor of VB or want this dropped have admittedly done little reading on what Charles' has put out there. Makes you wonder, why come to a blog if you aren't going to read and why argue for nothing and in some cases, be insulting to the person who is doing the actual reading and conveying what they see?

288 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:10:51pm

Jeppo, straight up, are you a "White Nationalist" by philosophy,
yes or no answer only please.

thanks.

289 NY Nana  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:11:02pm

re: #263 Kenneth

re: #259 NY Nana

We lose big-time if Al Qaeda get hold of even one of those 95 Pakistani nukes. Better that the US uses whatever force is necessary to prevent that from happening.

I agree, and somehow I do not think that
Musharraf has ever been a true ally to the West: Musharraf's emergency punishes the liberal activists who could help fight militancy

I feel that he has aided and abetted both Al-Quaeda and Bin Liner...and is in bed with terrorists.

What was done to the lawyers and judges? Frightening.

Somehow I also fear that Israel is in danger. And with the weaponry that President Bush has provided? G-d help us all. Martial law? A joke.

It is on my local ABC news right now...

Something has to give.

290 jeppo[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:11:35pm
291 zuckerlilly  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:11:52pm

A great service

How the Independent must have loved posting this headline: "Gypsy-haters, holocaust-deniers, xenophobes, homophobes, anti-semites: the EU's new political force."

This, as written by Stephen Castle, the paper's EU correspondent, records
"Europe's far-right, xenophobic and extremist parties" crossing a new threshold yesterday, winning more speaking time, money, and political influence in the European Parliament than ever before.

Claiming the backing of 23 million Europeans, ultra-nationalists secured enough MEPs to make a formal political grouping in the EU Parliament, surmounting the hurdle that requires 20 MEPs from at least six member states, all sharing a general political philosophy.

Called the Identity, Tradition and Sovereignty (ITS) group, this has been made possible by the admission of Romania and Bulgaria in January. Their "far-right" MEPs have joined together with "hardline nationalists and extremists" from France, Austria and Italy, plus one from the UK, former UKIP MEP Ashley Mote, now sitting as an independent.

Mote, therefore, is being held partly responsible by The Times for helping this far-right groups to get funding, a cool €1 million each year for "administrative expenses".

Prominent members of the far-right alliance include Jean-Marie Le Pen, leader of the French National Front, Alessandra Mussolini, granddaughter of Benito Mussolini (pictured), Frank Vanhecke, leader of Belgium's separatist Flemish nationalist party, Vlaams Belang, and Andreas Mölzer, a former aide to the Austrian far-right leader, Jörg Haider.

In their haste to declaim this new group, however, none of the media seem to have realised that, in branding it "far right" and "extremist" - a position led by the BBC - they can no longer so easily tar the UK Independence Party with the same brush. Unwittingly, they have positioned UKIP – and its agenda of leaving the EU – that bit closer to the "moderate" centre.

Although having been expelled from it, Ashley Mote has in fact done a far greater service to his former Party than he could have, had he remained in it.

292 Former Belgian  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:12:16pm

re: #65 maddogg

I see the Freemason-Jewish connection illustrated again.

A large number of my family are Freemasons, and while I never heard any of them say anything anti-Jewish, I never heard them say they were in league with them either. In fact, it just never came up.

I am Jewish albeit not a Mason, have friends who are Freemasons in the Old Country, and know people who are both. There is Freemasonry in Israel (very openly, UK style), but it's not a big thing there --- the Israeli Masons I know are Anglos or wannabe Anglos.

In Belgium it was historically a MUCH bigger thing, with Freemasonry historically being a bulwark of anticlericalism and/or secular humanism. Some context here:

[context]
Belgium only adopted "kosher" universal MALE suffrage after WW I, after having adopted some weird hybrid system in 1893 ("suffrage universel plural/algemeen meervoudig stemrecht") under which paying a certain level of poll tax got you a 2nd vote, and a high-school diploma a 3rd vote. From the foudnation of Belgium until 1893, "democracy" was based on about 2--3% of the population who could pay the high poll tax (generally wealthy farmers in the countryside and the city bourgeoisie). The main political dividing line in those days was between the (conservative, clericalist) Catholic Party and the [classical-]Liberal Party: Freemasonry was one main rallying point for the latter. The Catholic clergy accused Masons of all manners of bizarre things (like worshiping the devil at their lodges, ritual slaughter of children before Easter --- sounds familiar?), and any Catholic joining a Lodge was, according to Canon Law, excommunicated ipso facto. The few Protestants and Jews then present in Belgium were usually welcome as Masons if they applied. After universal suffrage was introduced, Freemasonry lost much of its power (knowingly: the main Masonic organization actually published manifestos in favor of universal suffrage), but remained something of an intellectual gathering place for everyone on the non-Catholic side.
[/context]

While some Vlaams Blok people are atheists, the joke used to be that Flemish nationalists were "more Catholic than the Pope", and rightist Flemish nationalists traditionally wore (to some extent still wear) their Catholicism VERY much on their sleeve. Since in a country without a Protestant community to speak of, Freemasonry was like "enemy #1 of the Church", anti-Masonic propaganda traditionally found fertile ground among what I shall polite call "plain, common" people who were not particularly bigoted. So it's always been a mainstay of propaganda and discourse among Belgium's far right, both neo-fascist and simply paleoconservative.

And of course, for simpletons, the things that Jews and Masons had in common (aside from some Masonic symbolism derived from the Jewish Bible/Old Testament) were: (a) international/"cosmopolitan"; (b) emphatically not Catholic; (c) generally not in favor of the Flemish nationalist far-right's political agenda; (d) you get the idea?

293 Thanos  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:12:32pm

re: #275 jeppo

Having said that, I've noticed that much of the evidence provided by you, Charles and others is sourced from Yelloman and Blokwatch, who, as I'm sure you're aware, are Belgian leftwing extremists. Imagine if you will a Belgian sourcing MoveOn.org and Code Pink to find out the "truth" about Bush, Cheney & co. Or sourcing LGFwatch and Daily Kos for "facts" about Charles.


And the source matters when you see factual video footage because? Yellowman and Blokwatch may be VB"s nemesis, however you notice we are sourcing VB itself for contradictory evidence, and for second source. You will notice we are also sourcing news stories, and finally Yellowman and Blokwatch got the video from a source themselves. Some of these videos you see came originally from VB members. This article links to the VBJ site does it not?

You will notice if you dig through the archives here that we will shred false evidence that supports our case or cause because it is FALSE. When we make a factual error we admit it cleanly, in front of the whole world. It's called being objective and factual.

294 JHW  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:13:21pm

Here`s a link to the Interior Ministry of the German state of North Rhine-Westphalia. Even if your German isn`t as good as you`d like, you should find the various PDF files available very illuminating.Heavily illustrated.

Interior Ministry PDFs

Scroll down the lists, download the PDF entitled "Musik-Mode-Markenzeichen. A mug`s gallery of Neo-Nazi rock bands, symbols, clothing, etc. Very enlightening. By the way ,overt Nazi symbols are outlawed in Germany, the word strafbar means punishable or illegal.

Interestingly there are other documents available, including "Islamismus-Missbrauch einer Religion and "Links{Left}-Extremismus in NRW[North Rhine Wesphalia]

Download, save and study, very useful.

Another very useful PDF available, illustrating Neo-Nazi symbols;


German PDF on Neo-Nazi symbols

295 stvip  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:14:09pm

re: #273 buzzsawmonkey

Cow tipping is encouraged, but not mandatory. We suggest 15% as an appropriate cow tip.

I think you misunderstand the proud, noble tradition of cow-tipping. It is not about giving tips to a cow, regardless of how pleased you are with its services. It denotes giving someone a cow as a tip. This is discouraged in some high-class, snotty snobbish French restaurants, but I will not let them force me to abandon this fine tradition, cops or no cops, whether the cow fits easily into the tip jar or not.
On that note, could you please send the bail money by Wednesday? And yes, I mean money - no cows! Bloody snobbish Israeli court system.

296 NY Nana  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:16:38pm

re: #265 Highrise

Nutcase, but then again, her posts here at LGF and at hot air have shown that she is whacked out and trying on purpose to discredit Charles, DISGUSTING! Yeah her apology really was genuine my arse!

The people who still post over there kissing her arse after all this stuff has come out, are disgusting. It's really too bad it came to this and that atlas herself CHOSE this path to burn bridges that she frankly didn't have to, but atlas laid her bed...........and isn't sorry for it either.

Superb...spot on. Apology? Ha! She would need a dictionary to see what it really means. Yes, she knew exactly what she was doing when she started this, and what I saw in that post just had me sitting here re-reading, to see if I had actually seen what I thought I had..sadly, I had.

At least she isn't posting here again...yet.

297 jeppo[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:17:19pm
298 NY Nana  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:21:37pm

re: #291 zuckerlilly

A gift Charles gave us when he went on Ajax for symbols, accents ,etc.

299 justnobody  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:21:41pm

re: #292 Former Belgian

Would you say that "mason" is a code-word for "Jew" in Flemish, or do they really hate the Freemasons?

300 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:22:24pm

re: #299 justnobody

they hate anyone who is not them

301 Thanos  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:25:41pm

Will you support us like Fjordman supports the war in Iraq Jeppo? If that's the case we certainly would not want you.

302 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:27:31pm
303 Former Belgian  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:28:41pm

re: #230 stvip [asks if any native Dutch-speaker can translate the video]

I am a native Dutch-speaker. Dewinter, in this 1991 video says:

"...and yes, the Flemish Block chooses a Flemish Flanders
and yes, the Flemish Block chooses Our Own People First
and yes, the Flemish Block chooses a White Europe"

Res ipsa loquitur/De feiten spreken voor zichzelf/The thing speaks for itself.

304 Obsidiandog  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:29:32pm

Are we really talking about this again?

305 jeppo[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:30:40pm
306 NY Nana  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:30:49pm

re: #304 Obsidiandog

Does the truth bother you?

307 jeppo[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:31:15pm
308 Highrise  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:32:39pm

re: #304 Obsidiandog

Are we really talking about this again?

There ARE other threads or did I miss a gun put up to your head to read this one?

309 jeppo[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:35:19pm
310 Josephine  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:36:08pm

Dymphna's comment on that GoV post is revealing:

"The Baron worked for months on the conference in ANtwerp and Belgium, being chronically sleep=deprived in order to pull it off.

"The immediate sneering smackdown, from some commenter of LGF who calls himself Dave of Sweeden was put on the front page of the post itself.Rude and un-called for, his complaints were unsourced -- in the beginning. Once they resorted to 'sources' those were questionable, to say the least.

"All along, we kept Chrles and other bloggers in the loop for months before the event. He never responded, but we didn't take that as ominous. It was only when I informed him that the conference had taken place and given him a link to what the Baron had written about it AND then gone over to his site to see his immediate questioning of the whole thing that I began to have questions about the man's integrity.

"As it unfolded and he began to sit right in the middle of the comments, egging people on, I realized we'd been set up."

She seems to be saying that:
- Charles Johnson had this "disinformation" all along but withheld it in order to set them up. (To what end, she doesn't say.)
- Mr. Johnson ominously let the well-intentioned Baron work his butt off and go without sleep for months without saying anything to promote the conference.
- Mr. Johnson's immediate, rude, uncalled for, unsourced sneering smackdown revealed his lack of integrity. (Her words, not mine.)

I think, based also on part of her comment that I didn't copy here (it's too rude):
- Dymphna and Baron immediately assumed the worst about Charles Johnson and his motives. They already had a somewhat low opinion of his character and this confirmed it for them in spades.
- Their feelings were hurt and they went on the attack.

You can learn a lot about someone when you have a disagreement with them.

I personally don't stay in relationships in which people don't fight fair.

311 jeppo[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:37:48pm
312 pingjockey  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:37:49pm

re: #304 Obsidiandog

About what? Uber nationalists, cow tipping, the mess in Pakistan, take your pick. I don't understand the defense of these neo nazis at all. If you want to defeat the islamists you must, must not be linked or affiliated with any neo nazi group. The LSM will eat it up. The LSM are islamist enablers and any hint of bigotry will be blown totally out of proportion. You can bash Christians and Jews all you want and the LSM will do nothing. But step on an islamists toe and look out.

313 Thanos  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:38:10pm

re: #305 jeppo

You make some intelligent and interesting points. The reason I keep demanding proof that the VB are Nazis, fascists, white supremacists and anti-Semites are so the hysterical slurs against the VB will stop so we can conduct this debate rationally, not emotionally. No one here, nor anywhere else has provided proof of the above charges.

If people really want to hang an epithet on the VB, then use "Islamophobic". Even though there are Muslim members and officials of the VB, I think that that the Islamophobe label is probably accurate.


Who's hysterical? We are presenting hard but ugly facts that you can't deny. White power signs in Kid's magazines, links from VB"s pages to militant groups that adulate hitler. Filip Dewinter's own words - remember before the muslims came he wanted to deport the Portugeuse. White power sign on Filip's bookcase. Marching with Lebensrune banners early in October. etc. etc. etc.

Does VB have any outreach programs for Morrocan immigrants? Are they trying to integrate them into their "cultural homogenity?" Do they teach dutch in the poor Morrocan neighborhoods in Brussels?

314 Former Belgian  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:38:47pm

re: #299 justnobody

Freemason codeword for Jew? Don't think the Flemish use code words for such things. For Mason they would say "vrijmetselaar" or even the French "franc-macon" (rather amusingly, many "Flemish" guys generally speak a colloquial Dutch liberally larded with French loanwords and idioms) for "freemason", and "jood" when they mean "Jew". Nothing "code" about it, and while the hateful English verb "to jew somebody" doesn't exist in Dutch, similar expressions exist. (Am reminded of some checkout lady telling me about forgetting to give proper change "how much of a Jew do you think I am?". You get the idea.)

The one euphemism/"code word" I recall is that occasionally, when people wanted to be polite about inquiring after my religion, they would ask me if I am an "Israelite" instead of "Jew". (In Dutch and French, "Israelite" means specifically somebody who is an adherent of the Jewish religion.)

315 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:40:49pm
316 Thanos  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:40:54pm

re: #309 jeppo

re: #293 Thanos


re: #275 jeppo

Having said that, I've noticed that much of the evidence provided by you, Charles and others is sourced from Yelloman and Blokwatch, who, as I'm sure you're aware, are Belgian leftwing extremists. Imagine if you will a Belgian sourcing MoveOn.org and Code Pink to find out the "truth" about Bush, Cheney & co. Or sourcing LGFwatch and Daily Kos for "facts" about Charles.

And the source matters when you see factual video footage because? Yellowman and Blokwatch may be VB"s nemesis, however you notice we are sourcing VB itself for contradictory evidence, and for second source. You will notice we are also sourcing news stories, and finally Yellowman and Blokwatch got the video from a source themselves. Some of these videos you see came originally from VB members. This article links to the VBJ site does it not?
You will notice if you dig through the archives here that we will shred false evidence that supports our case or cause because it is FALSE. When we make a factual error we admit it cleanly, in front of the whole world. It's called being objective and factual.

I'm not saying that everything produced by Yelloman and Blokwatch is false, I'm saying tread very, very carefully when dealing with these people. They stand against everything (pro-American, pro-Israeli, anti-jihadist) we believe in.

I get it that already, it's easy to see their worldview as well, that's exactly why I took the time and waded through VB's own sites. Lizards are not dim.

317 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:42:40pm

re: #310 Josephine

dymphie is obfuscating on a massive scale- lobbing allegations with zero evidence and hyperventilating over mere question arising and proper follow up. My guess- the questions raised initially would not be creating this furor had not Charles followed up on answering them and producing his findings. See- they're mad he didn't keep his mouth shut. Tough sh*t.

Go Charles!

318 zuckerlilly  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:45:02pm

As if it wouldn't be enough to fight lefties who ally with islamofascist, now we are confronted with 'pseudo"-anti-jihadis who ally with neo-fascists.

319 Charles  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:47:11pm

re: #310 Josephine

I've tried to refrain from lashing out personally at any of those people, and I'll continue.

320 Thanos  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:48:08pm

re: #311 jeppo

re: #301 Thanos


Will you support us like Fjordman supports the war in Iraq Jeppo? If that's the case we certainly would not want you.

Sorry, I don't understand your question. Would you mind rephrasing it?

Fjordman is virulently anti-Iraq war.

321 jeppo[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:48:14pm
322 Rust Never Sleeps  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:48:37pm

Charles,

You are not being misled by 'agents provocateurs'. But neither are you, or the other LGFers (or Pamela for that matter) very well informed. It's difficult to understand what goes on in country thousand miles away, based on a few web-links. Posts like this prove that.
1)

3) The smaller sticker on the left side is an anti-Vlaams Blok poster, with a man giving a Nazi salute inside a red circle with a line through it. It’s probably a smack against the “PC judges” who listened to anti-VB propaganda. Here’s a larger image of the sticker.


The poster with the man giving a Nazi salute is a poster that was very widespread in the early nineties in Belgium. It was spread by the Maoist party PvdA (not to confused with the Dutch PvdA).
2) The Freemasonry symbol?
Well, Freemason groups in Belgium exist, and are rather large. Belgium is much more secularized then America, remember. And of course, Freemasons have the right to unite. The problem is that also function as special interest groups that determine mainstream politics and court cases. A lot of their members are lawyers and judges. By the way, Opus Dei works in exactly the same way in Belgium. Anyone who would like Belgium/Flanders to have an independent judiciary, complains about this situation.

I would like to give my opinion on the VB (a large party) in a different post. I think I could clarify some things. I believe that I am in a very well position to do so. I am Flemish, I've been around some time, I don't vote for them, don't admire them, and once, I demonstrated against them. But the issue is a little more complex.

323 Render  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:49:15pm

[Link: www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...]

"In a program broadcast over the Dutch television network NCRV, Prof. Roland Raes, vice-president of the Belgian radical right party 'Vlaams Blok', claimed that he rejects the idea that the Holocaust was a 'plan for genocide'. Raes emphasized that many experts have for a long time doubted the existence of the gas chambers and death camps and reiterated the traditional revisionist declarations on the exaggerated number of Holocaust victims. With the publication of his statements in Belgium, which was widely covered in the Belgian media, Raes announced that he was resigning his position as a leader of the Vlaams Blok. Raes remarks aroused sharp criticism from representatives of the entire political spectrum in Belgium."

The Wiki for Roland Raes states that he is still a member of and still employed by VB.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

Raes was, in 2001, VB's vice-president. Pretending you don't know who he is would lead one to believe that at least one American might know more about VB than you do...

OR
MANY,
R

324 Salem  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:50:57pm

Are there crypto-nazis that need to be flushed out outside of Sweden and Belgium? Say America? Wouldn't that be a hoot!

325 zuckerlilly  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:51:14pm

re: #298 NY Nana

re: #291 zuckerlilly

A gift Charles gave us when he went on Ajax for symbols, accents ,etc.


I'm so thankful that Charles opened the discussion and cut every line to neofascist movements. We should support him whenever and wherever we can.

326 zuckerlilly  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:53:34pm

re: #320 Thanos

re: #311 jeppo


re: #301 Thanos

Will you support us like Fjordman supports the war in Iraq Jeppo? If that's the case we certainly would not want you.

Sorry, I don't understand your question. Would you mind rephrasing it?

Fjordman is virulently anti-Iraq war.


Really? I stopped reading him long ago at a time when he was still blogging.

327 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:53:54pm

re: #321 jeppo

vlamms belang follows a right-wing populist line. The more I read up on it, the uglier it gets. Again- I forgot my spoon, so read up on it for yourself.

328 Charles  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:54:20pm

re: #322 Rust Never Sleeps

1)

3) The smaller sticker on the left side is an anti-Vlaams Blok poster, with a man giving a Nazi salute inside a red circle with a line through it. It’s probably a smack against the “PC judges” who listened to anti-VB propaganda. Here’s a larger image of the sticker.

The poster with the man giving a Nazi salute is a poster that was very widespread in the early nineties in Belgium. It was spread by the Maoist party PvdA (not to confused with the Dutch PvdA).

Am I missing something, or did you just confirm what I said? It's a smack at the judge, who "listens to anti-VB propaganda."

329 Render  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:54:25pm

re: #324 Salem

There are. And they are connected to the European groups.

INTIMATELY,
R

330 Former Belgian  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:54:25pm

re: #316 Thanos

re: #309 jeppo
[...]
I'm not saying that everything produced by Yelloman and Blokwatch is false, I'm saying tread very, very carefully when dealing with these people. They stand against everything (pro-American, pro-Israeli, anti-jihadist) we believe in.

I get it that already, it's easy to see their worldview as well, that's exactly why I took the time and waded through VB's own sites. Lizards are not dim.

Logically there are only three alternatives re: neofascist sympathizers in the VB:

(a) there are and were none (a claim laughable on its face for anyone familiar with Belgian politics and history)

(b) there are some, but they are a remnant of days past and no longer representative of the party, which has moved on to being a respectable conservative party.

(c) these clowns ARE the true face of the party, and its public face is just the White Nationalist version of "taqqiya" (tactical dissembling), or clever marketing (exploiting the absence of a credible conservative party in the Belgain political spectrum), or both.

I was at least willing to entertain the possibility of (b). However, the more evidence I see that the VB leadership is at the very least tolerating this sort of neo-fascist "crabgrass" in their ranks, the more convinced I get of (c).

331 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:55:21pm

re: #307 jeppo

re: #288 BabbaZee

Jeppo, straight up, are you a "White Nationalist" by philosophy,
yes or no answer only please.

thanks.

No


thanks for answering

332 LSD  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 2:56:58pm

re: #275 jeppo

I've noticed that much of the evidence provided by you, Charles and others is sourced from Yelloman and Blokwatch, who, as I'm sure you're aware, are Belgian leftwing extremists. Imagine if you will a Belgian sourcing MoveOn.org and Code Pink to find out the "truth" about Bush, Cheney & co. Or sourcing LGFwatch and Daily Kos for "facts" about Charles.

The TRUTH is the TRUTH Jeppo. Who reveals it matters not. The video's of Dewinter, his own words, his own statements and those of VB leadership, their supremacist origins, etc. reveal the truth.

(Now Spin!)

333 Thanos  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:00:35pm

re: #324 Salem

Are there crypto-nazis that need to be flushed out outside of Sweden and Belgium? Say America? Wouldn't that be a hoot!

See Charle's posts on Young Americans for Freedom or YAfF MSU chapter, as opposed to Young America's Foundation, a legit conservative group.
Search on Kyle Bristow

334 J.S.  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:00:54pm

Jeppo,

I believe the majority of us here realize that your Vlaams Belang Party is trying like crazy to appear other than what it is (that is, you're willing to be seen as anti-Muslim, but not, pro WN). I don't buy it.

I also suspect you know very well why that cartoon mouse is black and evil looking (while wearing a White supremacist arm-band). That's a joke, right? (I've translated the article, btw -- the article is about a famous Dutch cartoon strip -- called "Tom Poes" (in English, it'd be "Tom Puss" or Tom Cat -- the "hero" of the cartoon strip is a white cat). The comic strip was drawn by Marten Toonder (there's a Wiki article on Toonder -- he not only drew cartoons, but also added words to the Dutch vocabulary). Toonder sounds like a fine fellow...although I don't know why/how he ended up in Ireland.

335 Charles  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:02:02pm

Here's Vlaams Belang parliamentarian Koen Dillen.

Here's Koen Dillen in the company of Belgian nazi collaborator Leon Degrelle, ranking Standartenführer in the Waffen SS:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Another picture of Dillen with Degrelle:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Degrelle with someone else:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Another photo of the young Degrelle:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

336 NY Nana  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:02:23pm

re: #325 zuckerlilly

I'm so thankful that Charles opened the discussion and cut every line to neofascist movements. We should support him whenever and wherever we can.

So are 99.5 % of us, and we support Charles totally, as he has presented thoroughly researched evidence, and would not have posted it in the first place if he had the slightest bit of doubt. Those who refuse to see the truth that is right in front of their eyes will, I fear, wake up only after an event occurs that will be irrefutable, but also life-changing, and not for the better.

And each post on this subject has only strengthened what he had said in the first place.

With all that I have seen in my life time, it never fails to amaze me that the deniers are still so ignorant.

337 Former Belgian  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:07:07pm

re: #322 Rust Never Sleeps

Charles,


2) The Freemasonry symbol?
Well, Freemason groups in Belgium exist, and are rather large. Belgium is much more secularized then America, remember.

Both Belgians and Americans: another possible cultural misunderstanding. Grossly oversimplifying, there are basically two types of Masonry in the world: Anglo masonry as seen in England, USA, and more generally in historically Protestant countries --- which is explicitly theistic and where lodges may even require of candidates to be professing members of a monotheistic faith --- and "Latin" freemasonry (as seen in France, Belgium,..., and more generally in historically Catholic countries) , which came of age under much more hostile conditions and tends to be just as explicitly secularist and anticlerical (in that context, "anticlerical" vs "anti-Catholic" was sometimes a distinction without a difference).

338 zuckerlilly  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:15:11pm

re: #335 Charles

Here's Vlaams Belang parliamentarian Koen Dillen.

Here's Koen Dillen in the company of Belgian nazi collaborator Leon Degrelle, ranking Standartenf%uFFFDin the Waffen SS:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Another picture of Dillen with Degrelle:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Degrelle with someone else:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Another photo of the young Degrelle:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]


Karel Dillen the father of Koen Dillen:

While, publicly, the VB*) has been striving to pass itself off as a respectable party, it remains quietly faithful to its ideological heritage. Since 1989 the VB has been the main European ally of the French FN, and in 1998 their political ties were intensified. Most of the bloc's leaders (Philip Claeys, Filip De Man, Johan Demol, Filip Dewinter, Karel Dillen, Roeland Raes, Franck Van Hecke, and others) were involved in the lectures given by the Brussels' mini-group known as Bruxelles-Identité-Sécurité (BIS), or worked on its propaganda magazine together with members of the French FN national leadership before that party split in December 1998.

(...)

Vlaamse Militanten Orde (VMO), the largest neo-Nazi and revisionist
paramilitary group of the 1970s. Karel Dillen, the honorary president, wrote an obituary honoring the French fascist writer Maurice Bardèche, who died in Paris in August. Dillen had translated into Dutch Bardèche's 1947 work Nuremberg ou la terre promise, the first revisionist book ever published.

*) VB = Vlaams Blok

339 Former Belgian  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:19:12pm

re: #335 Charles

Here's Vlaams Belang parliamentarian Koen Dillen.

Here's Koen Dillen in the company of Belgian nazi collaborator Leon Degrelle, ranking Standartenf%uFFFDhrer in the Waffen SS:

Koen Dillen is of course the son of VB founder Karel Dillen --- yes, the one who translated Holocaust denial literature as early as 1951.

Now stretching the envelope to the limit: if Dillen Jr. had met with some Flemish nationalist Nazi collaborator (say, somebody who led a Flemish Waffen SS unit on the Eastern Front), 99% of us would still get stomach cramps but he could still try to spin it as "I visited a Flemish idealist, who fought against Communism, made mistakes and suffered for it,..." Mind you, I still wouldn't fall for it.

Even that lame excuse cannot be invoked for meeting with Degrelle, a WALLOON (French-speaking) extreme rightist who never gave one hoot about Flemish independence (Degrelle, in his warped way, was actually something of a Belgicist ideologically), who is on record as a Holocaust denier, and was living in Spain because Belgian courts passed a death sentence in absentia for high treason and various war crimes on him.

340 jeppo[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:21:59pm
341 zuckerlilly  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:23:55pm

After the war the Flemish nationalist movement payed a high price for its collaboration. Most leaders had to flee the country, but continued their fascist activity. The leaders ended up in Argentina, Spain or Austria. In Argentina the fascist refugees even had their own paper, “De Schakel”. The Belgian contact person for this paper was Roeland Raes, untill 2001 the vice-president of the Vlaams Blok.

342 PETN Sandwich  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:25:13pm

Former Belgian,

If you can, who is this "Robert de Foy" and what (if anything) does he have to do with Flemish independence/nationalism?

I only ask because the wiki is limited and you seem to be a straight talker.

343 zuckerlilly  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:26:09pm

Raes has a long history of close involvement with the far right in Europe and was for many years responsible for the Belgian distribution of a magazine called De Schakel which was edited in Argentina by former members of the Flemish SS.

344 jeppo[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:28:11pm
345 J.S.  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:28:41pm

re: #340 jeppo

Well, basically, that IS what many here have been saying..."at the present time we are not willing to support the VB until they have further cleaned house." That's it in a nut-shell. But to characterize every poster here as "hysterical" -- or suggest all of us as "labeling" VB "nazis, etc." -- that's not true either. There have been equally hysterical claims made by the VB supporters.

346 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:30:22pm

re: #340 jeppo

I'm sorry- am I supposed to be concerned with alienating fascists like it's a bad thing?

347 Salem  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:30:27pm
An argument like this would probably convince more people and alienate fewer.

Maybe so, but probably Charles isn't looking to you to provide his strategies. Just a hunch, since I think he said he's deleting your emails unread now.

348 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:31:00pm
349 Dead Sea Squirrel  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:32:35pm

re: #340 jeppo

Jeppo, notice the three positions articulated here. What you have just done is label a slightly more skeptical version of "b" as the only contrary position to your own that you are willing to recognize as "rational." And if VB tends to its PR properly and keeps its nose clean, that skeptical "b" position will drop opposition and support VB. But through this sleight-of-hand you have eliminated the "c" position, without firing a shot, as implicitly "irrational."

That will not do. It is perfectly rational to conclude that VB and co. are stalking horses for a larger WN movement, and being deliberately deceptive.

350 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:32:38pm

re: #333 Thanos

re: #324 Salem

Are there crypto-nazis that need to be flushed out outside of Sweden and Belgium? Say America? Wouldn't that be a hoot!

See Charle's posts on Young Americans for Freedom or YAfF MSU chapter, as opposed to Young America's Foundation, a legit conservative group.
Search on Kyle Bristow


its way deeper than that

351 Salem  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:33:03pm
I find it interesting to see you describe yourself as a "North American." On which side of the Canadian border would that put you?

Or Mexican border!

352 jeppo[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:33:06pm
353 Rust Never Sleeps  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:33:11pm

MY INFORMED ANSWER TO THE VB DISCUSSION ON LGF

1) Vlaams Blok/Vlaams Belang has had (crypto)nazi sympathisers in it ranks from the beginning. Just like the Green Party has had (crypto)communists in their ranks from the beginning. By the way, the Social-Democrats had both categories. (Politics has been much more polarized in Europe than in the US.)

2) A living political party is not an Internet forum were members are easily banned (remember Biegel). If LGF ever became a party, Charles, you would be shocked be what some of ‘your’ members would support and say.

3) Does that mean that ‘everything goes’? No. The VB has removed holocaust deniers from it ranks. The never went far enough, however.

4) On the other hand, the growth of the VB into a large popular party has changed its nature. The VB had to change to reach new members, the stream of new members has changed the party from inside.

5) While it is not difficult to find unsavory characters in the VB, what really counts is the program of the VB. Clearly a nationalist, anti-Muslim immigrant program. But not a fascist one.

6) The situation in Europe is extreme. European Intifada movements, Jews and synagogues being attacked, Muslim youths that commits random violence and rapes. LGF has reported on it, and concluded that Eurabia was already lost, time, after time.
In reality the reaction of people in working quarters in Flanders is extremely strong. You want to hear real rage, real hate, real talk about extermination even. The VB is the only party that still reaches those people and CAN CALM them down. That’s the only reason why mass violence hasn’t broken out yet in Flanders.

Conclusion from this liberal that got mugged by reality. The VB is the only party in Flanders that is capable of:
1) canalizing extremist reactions in Flanders. This means that some extremist have to be isolated. But most of them should remain within the larger party, where their ideas are gradually watered down. (I’ve personally seen it happen again and again.)
2) finding a MODERATE solution to the immigrant problem. This includes the repatriation of Islamists.

354 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:33:49pm

re: #340 jeppo

Although we as North Americans cannot be expected to fully understand the nuances of Belgian culture and politics, there are some troubling issues we have with the VB party.

Drink!

355 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:34:48pm

re: #352 jeppo

Including the "ethno-nationalism" aspect?

356 jeppo[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:34:53pm
357 zuckerlilly  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:36:02pm

re: #345 J.S.


I said it before and say it again:

VB is NOT neo-nazi it is part of the neo-fascist movement in Europe. And it is an important part of these movements together with the Austrian FPOE and the French FN.

358 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:38:52pm

re: #357 zuckerlilly

yup
and as you said the other day
c18 = vip link

I cant stay but
keep it up all
I will be back

359 zuckerlilly  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:40:03pm

re: #353 Rust Never Sleeps

4) On the other hand, the growth of the VB into a large popular party has changed its nature. The VB had to change to reach new members, the stream of new members has changed the party from inside.

What you say. Why do they ally with people like these?

360 zuckerlilly  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:40:56pm

re: #358 BabbaZee

Babba {Bussi} and take care of you.

361 pingjockey  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:41:48pm

OT, Go frackin' vote!

362 jeppo[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:43:16pm
363 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:46:49pm

re: #362 jeppo

You've convinced me.

364 Thanos  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:46:55pm

If you have to bold things, you are losing the argument. A rose by any other name... pour gilt on a turd and it still stinks.

365 jeppo[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:47:12pm
366 Dead Sea Squirrel  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:47:46pm

I'm still struck by the recent DeWinter interview (still available in Charles' pile of links) in which he explains clearly that it was wrong, very wrong, for the earlier Flemish Independence movement to collaborate with the Nazis because the Germans double-crossed them, failing to provide the expected help in achieving Flemish independence.

This is blatantly political double-talk. He has an interview that he can point to with the magic words "collaborating with the Nazis was wrong" when he needs it, but if you examine what he actually says, there is nothing there that would raise the hackles of the most extreme Stormfront skinhead.

DeWinter apparently does NOT want to alienate the hardcore WN support he enjoys any more than absolutely necessary.

I'm with option "c" and Babbazee. Stalking horse.

367 jeppo[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:50:09pm
368 Salem  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:50:46pm
I've never sent Charles an email. I'm sure he can confirm this.

Oh okay. Evidently it was someone else he said this too. I probably haven't been paying enough attention. Sorry!

369 J.S.  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:50:48pm

re: #357 zuckerlilly

I agree. It's a straw-man argument to claim "Vlaams Belang is a neo-nazi Party". It's not explicitly "neo-nazi" (this was gone over, I believe, on the very first day this all started...I can't recall -- was it the poster Truumax or Yank in EU ?-- anyway, they explained it.) At the same time, that doesn't mean they're not (as you note) part of this fascistic movement (which is cropping up all across Europe)...and which (I believe) Charles is correct in noting and disassociating from.

370 Former Belgian  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:51:04pm

I had a look at this "Yelloman" site. He approvingly links to a Robert [Stink]Fisk piece of dreck about 9/11, so he's clearly not on our team. But my eye was caught by a link saying "Dewinter is disgusted by Nazism".

Intrigued, I clicked, to get this YouTube video:

It shows Dewinter canvassing an Antwerp neighborhood in 1988, passing around propaganda of the "400,000 unemployed because Turks and Moroccans are taking their jobs" variety. Being put on the spot by an activist of the Belgian Maoist party PVDA (a truly pathetic bunch of kooks that used to defend Pol Pot's regime as "legitimate anti-imperialism"), Dewinter says: "I am 26 years old, my father was deported during World War II, and I have nothing but disgust for National Socialism".

Cut to scenes of neo-nazi whackjobs trying to put down wreaths on the graves of some Flemish Waffen SS types buried on a German military cemetary. Seen among the crowd: Dewinter, and another VB head honcho of the same generation (Gerolf Annemans).
The documentary also shows police checking the papers of visitors to the cemetary: if they're German (read: relatives of the about 40,000 regular army types buried in the same cemetary) they're let in, if they're Belgian/Flemish, they're kept out, as they're the neo-Nazi "nostalgics" (as the voice-over in French puts it)

371 zuckerlilly  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:52:32pm

re: #361 pingjockey


done! ;-)

372 jeppo[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:53:44pm
373 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:54:13pm
374 Rust Never Sleeps  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:54:49pm

The VB is to large to be denied any longer (unlike the Sweden Democrats). They represent a growing popular trend in Europe. A trend that is first and foremost a reaction. I am just as afraid as anybody on LGF that the ghosts of past could return. What happened in the Balkans could pale in significant.

But the experience with the VB proves that they can are be moderated. That's why the Jewish community in Antwerp has rather good ties with them. Americans are in an even better position to help them to moderate. This includes farther distancing them from some of their members and symbols.

I would like to quote a great American here: You go to war with the Army you have." I would like to add: "But you don't stop fixing it, while you fight."

375 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:55:00pm

Check this out.....
Is this the same rat? Looks familiar, possibly drawn by the same person.
It comes from this site that some people say is the rally where the white power flag picture was taken,

376 jeppo[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:56:54pm
377 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:57:32pm

re: #369 J.S.

I think "crypto-fascist" is apropos. Is every member or voter of/for the party a crypto-fascist? Of course not, but that you find them in leadership positions- that is what's troubling and needs to be dealt with, and sooner rather than later.

378 LSD  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:58:16pm

re: #348 buzzsawmonkey

re: #340 jeppo

Everything you have said in your post has been said here--some of it several times. If the discussion has been circuitous and at times emotional, that can be laid at least in part to your own posts which have fastend on peripheral irrelevancies in an effort to discredit central points.

Right On ...

379 Dead Sea Squirrel  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:58:52pm

re: #375 Killgore Trout

Check this out.....
Is this the same rat? Looks familiar, possibly drawn by the same person.
It comes from this site that some people say is the rally where the white power flag picture was taken,

Look at the upper left drawing, KT. There's the White Power flag, or didn't you see it?

380 Former Belgian  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:59:50pm

re: #342 PETN Sandwich

Former Belgian,

If you can, who is this "Robert de Foy" and what (if anything) does he have to do with Flemish independence/nationalism?

I only ask because the wiki is limited and you seem to be a straight talker.

What's written in the wiki is pretty much what Paul Belien wrote himself. (In fact, one of the footnotes is to my blogging the article, in the days that I still had time to blog.) What I can tell you is that, whatever else de Foy may or may not have been, anybody who was not 100% "belgicist" (read: opposed to Flemish or Walloon nationalism) would never have been appointed at the head of Belgium's internal security service, especially not in those days.

381 zuckerlilly  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:59:55pm

re: #370 Former Belgian


[Link: nl.youtube.com...]

and 4 days later he joined a demonstration with well known nazis. Was already posted here.

382 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:00:21pm

re: #375 Killgore Trout

Looks like the same artist to me. And extra pics of the rally- good work!

383 jeppo[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:01:24pm
384 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:03:27pm

re: #379 Dead Sea Squirrel

Huh, I didn't notice that before. I wonder if it's the same cartoonist. I don't think it's terribly relevant but it would be an odd coincidence.

385 jeppo[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:04:06pm
386 J.S.  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:05:17pm

re: #377 Sharmuta

Hmm. Yes, "crypto-fascist" does seem to describe them... Good point.

387 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:05:22pm

re: #384 Killgore Trout

The rat definitely looks the same to me.

388 Thanos  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:05:58pm

re: #372 jeppo

re: #349 Dead Sea Squirrel


re: #340 jeppo

Jeppo, notice the three positions articulated here. What you have just done is label a slightly more skeptical version of "b" as the only contrary position to your own that you are willing to recognize as "rational." And if VB tends to its PR properly and keeps its nose clean, that skeptical "b" position will drop opposition and support VB. But through this sleight-of-hand you have eliminated the "c" position, without firing a shot, as implicitly "irrational."

That will not do. It is perfectly rational to conclude that VB and co. are stalking horses for a larger WN movement, and being deliberately deceptive.


In my opinion, option B is a good description of the VB today.

Jeppo, I think B is what you would like VB to become, to us it's not there yet. They don't have my support.

Since you remain unconvinced however, I will spend the rest of the evening digging up and piling on more evidence, it's just not that hard to find. You are doing well for your friends in VB, winning them allies this way aren't you?

389 Thanos  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:06:37pm

re: #374 Rust Never Sleeps

The VB is to large to be denied any longer (unlike the Sweden Democrats). They represent a growing popular trend in Europe. A trend that is first and foremost a reaction. I am just as afraid as anybody on LGF that the ghosts of past could return. What happened in the Balkans could pale in significant.

But the experience with the VB proves that they can are be moderated. That's why the Jewish community in Antwerp has rather good ties with them. Americans are in an even better position to help them to moderate. This includes farther distancing them from some of their members and symbols.

I would like to quote a great American here: You go to war with the Army you have." I would like to add: "But you don't stop fixing it, while you fight."

Did I miss something? Are there Flemish troops fighting in Iraq?

390 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:07:28pm

re: #382 Sharmuta

And extra pics of the rally- good work!


It's not a VB rally, but some Gates of Vienna, et al say that's where our VB White power flag picture came from. But it really does seem like the same artist.

391 Dead Sea Squirrel  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:09:19pm

re: #390 Killgore Trout

re: #382 Sharmuta

And extra pics of the rally- good work!

It's not a VB rally, but some Gates of Vienna, et al say that's where our VB White power flag picture came from. But it really does seem like the same artist.

In fairness (we are the fair ones, right?), the White Power flag in the illustration would be an open invitation to bring something like that to the rally, even if it's not in this set of photos.

392 jeppo[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:10:36pm
393 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:11:15pm

re: #390 Killgore Trout

It's not a VB rally, but some Gates of Vienna, et al say that's where our VB White power flag picture came from.

So LGF's picture did not come from that rally?

394 Former Belgian  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:13:36pm

Did I miss something? Are there Flemish troops fighting in Iraq?

Believe me, the Coalition needs Flemish troops fighting alongside them like it needs boils on the tushy. The Belgian "army" is a pathetic joke. It wasn't always that way --- in WW I, they managed to fight the Kaiser's troops to a standstill.

395 konservo  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:15:26pm

Jeppo,

I can't believe that you're still denying that VB is a crypto-fascist, white nationalist party! Not one of the arguments that defends VB has been valid, (immigration is not the issue here). If you want to defend this group, please address the actually problems. A good place to start would be with DeWinter's words themselves:

"Up with the Flemish power. Up with the Flemish power. The traditional parties have moved to the left, while the Vlaams Blok, Vlaams Belang - for me still one and the same party - has remained true to itself."


and

‘Yes, the Vlaams Blok (Flemish Block) chooses our own people first (slogan: Eigen Volk Eerst). And yes, the Vlaams Blok chooses a Flemish Flanders. And yes, the Vlaams Blok chooses a white Europe.’


It's quite clear that VB is a WN party, don't insult us by saying that we don't understand European politics, and obfuscate the issue by bringing up immigration.

396 Thanos  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:16:08pm

re: #390 Killgore Trout

re: #382 Sharmuta


And extra pics of the rally- good work!

It's not a VB rally, but some Gates of Vienna, et al say that's where our VB White power flag picture came from. But it really does seem like the same artist.

I cannot find links between VJW and VB, other than they are inviting the hardcore kicked from VMO or who voluntarily left the militia to join them. They are openly socialist, anti communist, and very much jew haters.

397 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:16:17pm

re: #374 Rust Never Sleeps

Bart Debie's sister works with the Antwerp Diamond District Jews.

They have worked very hard in VB to receive political cover from Jewish and American useful idiots

All that crap stops right here

it is not a maybe
this shit IS happening

398 jeppo[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:16:33pm
399 PETN Sandwich  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:17:35pm

re: #375 Killgore Trout

Check this out.....
Is this the same rat? Looks familiar, possibly drawn by the same person.
It comes from this site that some people say is the rally where the white power flag picture was taken,

Check out the rats on their homepage...

400 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:17:43pm

re: #383 jeppo

re: #355 Sharmuta

re: #352 jeppo

Including the "ethno-nationalism" aspect?

I think ethno-nationalism in Europe is a perfectly valid position, shared by countries from Japan to Jamaica.


uh oh

slippery slope Jeppo that no you gave m may be in question

401 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:19:23pm

re: #393 Sharmuta

Facts Part 4: That Flag...
The VB defenders claim that is was an independent rally of 'solodaritists" but all they have is anonymous blog postings as proof.

402 zuckerlilly  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:20:10pm

Do you remember van Themsche and the racist murder of a toddler and the babysitter and how bj was denying that the racism of VB had anything to do with?

Now here is a video about the aunt Frieda van Themsche and the racism she and her comrades from VB are spraying

403 Charles  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:20:48pm

re: #396 Thanos

re: #390 Killgore Trout

re: #382 Sharmuta

And extra pics of the rally- good work!

It's not a VB rally, but some Gates of Vienna, et al say that's where our VB White power flag picture came from. But it really does seem like the same artist.
I cannot find links between VJW and VB, other than they are inviting the hardcore kicked from VMO or who voluntarily left the militia to join them. They are openly socialist, anti communist, and very much jew haters.

I haven't seen any real proof that the rally at that site is the same rally. Just assertions, and the photos don't back any of them up.

404 zuckerlilly  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:21:21pm

re: #397 BabbaZee

re: #374 Rust Never Sleeps

Bart Debie's sister works with the Antwerp Diamond District Jews.

They have worked very hard in VB to receive political cover from Jewish and American useful idiots

All that crap stops right here

it is not a maybe
this shit IS happening


Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeppppppppp!

405 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:21:31pm

re: #402 zuckerlilly

yes I was looking at all of that too

406 PETN Sandwich  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:21:43pm

#401 Killgore Trout

Nieuw - Solidaristisch Alternatief !

It's all greek to me.

407 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:23:22pm

re: #399 PETN Sandwich

Interesting White power rat! Aisha naar LDD...
and more here!

They're using the same cartoonist.

408 Charles  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:23:30pm

Another rat with a White Power symbol:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

409 Charles  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:24:52pm
410 PETN Sandwich  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:25:32pm

Kilgore,

Oops, limked the wrong page- home page is it.

411 Rust Never Sleeps  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:26:02pm

389 Thanos

I mean that the anti-Jihadist movement will have to work with parties and groups like the VB in Europe.

Small hardcore-Nazi and/or violent groups are out of the question of course. But large groups that both represent (even larger) tendencies and are open to change should.

It is historically inevitable that EVERY nationalist and/or right-wing group in Europe will have unsavory people in their midst. We have the deal with those people, but we should automatically write off the whole movement or party. Otherwise, Europe we'll be left defenseless.

412 konservo  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:26:31pm

Does anyone know the significance of using a rat as the WN mascot?

413 jeppo[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:26:35pm
414 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:26:58pm

re: #401 Killgore Trout

it's all moot anyway
more smoke

the preponderance of evidence is overwhelming

Both Charles and I have only presented a fraction of what we have as yet

the fact that they fixate on that kind of crap is only further proof of the nothing they have to come against this with

the ones that are not in sync with the agenda outright NEED us to be wrong in order to live with themselves

not my problem

its between them and GOD now
they were warned

415 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:27:05pm

re: #409 Charles

If nothing else I guess this proves that they have hired the same WN cartoonist.

416 Thanos  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:27:46pm

I've read his posts, he isn't saying anything different that any of the other apologists for racism. Liberty is for individuals in America, not groups, try as you might the message is not going to travel far or gain traction here.

The nationalist movements in Europe are tying themselves to the coat-tails of two popular movements, but we understand the real goals. They differ little between tribal nationalists, just the words of justification and rationalizations vary.

417 PETN Sandwich  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:29:00pm

Aisha, hmmm

418 zuckerlilly  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:29:34pm

re: #411 Rust Never Sleeps

389 Thanos

I mean that the anti-Jihadist movement will have to work with parties and groups like the VB in Europe.

Small hardcore-Nazi and/or violent groups are out of the question of course. But large groups that both represent (even larger) tendencies and are open to change should.

It is historically inevitable that EVERY nationalist and/or right-wing group in Europe will have unsavory people in their midst. We have the deal with those people, but we should automatically write off the whole movement or party. Otherwise, Europe we'll be left defenseless.


NEVER. That would be out of the frying pan into the fire.

419 ContraJihadi  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:30:27pm

re: #190 konservo

re: #158 ContraJihadi

Here's a comment at the GoV from a Vlaams Belang member who claims that "Debunking Charles Johnson is Easy as Pie"

I haven't had time to read the whole thing, but it seems that Vlaams Belangsters are turning to the bj and the GoV for 'proof' that they are not WN parties.

(Sorry, had to take my Mom to the dentist. I am working through the thread again.)

That "Debunking" said nothing about the Odin's Crosses. I'll admit that just because Stormfront or Political Cesspool likes VB, it doesn't prove that VB is fascist. But that Odin's Cross is VB's own, not something somebody else has set upon it.

420 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:31:09pm

re: #413 jeppo

don't play semantics with me now
I am an expert at determining intent from words

you said what you said
now you are changing it

why would that be

421 Thanos  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:31:25pm

re: #403 Charles

re: #396 Thanos


re: #390 Killgore Trout
re: #382 Sharmuta

And extra pics of the rally- good work!

It's not a VB rally, but some Gates of Vienna, et al say that's where our VB White power flag picture came from. But it really does seem like the same artist.
I cannot find links between VJW and VB, other than they are inviting the hardcore kicked from VMO or who voluntarily left the militia to join them. They are openly socialist, anti communist, and very much jew haters.

I haven't seen any real proof that the rally at that site is the same rally. Just assertions, and the photos don't back any of them up.


Me neither, indeed I have seen comments stating that these were VJW'ers who "happened to show up" at a VB rally, but... they weren't chased off even that's the case. I don't believe that however seeing no proof.

422 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:31:46pm

re: #412 konservo

I am looking into it
but I dont have an answer yet

423 pingjockey  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:32:23pm

re: #420 BabbaZee
Words mean things!

424 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:32:36pm

re: #418 zuckerlilly

into the HELLFIRE

425 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:32:59pm

re: #423 pingjockey

LOL!

426 konservo  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:33:29pm

re: #411 Rust Never Sleeps

389 Thanos
It is historically inevitable that EVERY nationalist and/or right-wing group in Europe will have unsavory people in their midst. We have the deal with those people, but we should automatically write off the whole movement or party. Otherwise, Europe we'll be left defenseless.

No one is writing off the counter-jihad movement and if the Vlaams Belang had made a solid effort to expel members with anti-semitic beliefs and/or ties to extremist groups, there would not be as big of a problem.

I don't buy your appeal to historical inevitability, if that were the case though, one would be well advised to start his or her own party. You know... without the white nationalists and fascists and all...

427 PETN Sandwich  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:33:45pm

Who speaks french? What's the black rat with a black 'white power' symbol singing?

428 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:33:50pm

re: #418 zuckerlilly

they are COUNTING on people like Rust and that feeling....

thus

NO ALTERNATIVE!

429 pingjockey  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:34:24pm

re: #425 BabbaZee

This whole uproar is quite simple, lay down with dogs, get up with fleas.

430 Charles  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:36:18pm

re: #419 ContraJihadi

No, links and approving articles at David Duke and Stormfront and European neo-Nazi sites don't prove anything, except that something about the Vlaams Belang appeals to that sort.

But that's far from the only evidence. I posted this earlier, but you may have missed it:

-------------------

Here's Vlaams Belang parliamentarian Koen Dillen.

Here's Koen Dillen in the company of Belgian nazi collaborator Leon Degrelle, ranking Standartenführer in the Waffen SS:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Another picture of Dillen with Degrelle:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Degrelle with someone else:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Another photo of the young Degrelle:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

431 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:36:35pm

Also

Europe is unarmed

even if VB WANTED to shed its Nazi leanings and fascism

WHICH IT DOES NOT WANT TO , trust me
it only wants to HIDE them

it cannot

because that white power base

is its muscle
is it's army

they do not need to end up dead in the street like Van Gough and Pim

they are not idiots
they need security

so

even if they WANTED TO GO CLEAN

they can not becasue they are unarmed and that base is the difference between living and dying for them

end of debate

432 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:36:37pm

re: #412 konservo

Does anyone know the significance of using a rat as the WN mascot?

Maybe this: Ratlines

Ratlines were systems of escape routes for Nazis and other fascists fleeing Europe at the end of World War II. These escape routes mainly led toward safe havens in South America, particularly Argentina, Paraguay, Brazil and Chile. Other destinations may have included the United States, Canada and the Middle East.

It's a bit of a stretch but it's the only thing I can think of. Maybe "Rat" has another meaning in Dutch or it might be a pun.

433 zuckerlilly  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:36:51pm

re: #428 BabbaZee

re: #418 zuckerlilly

they are COUNTING on people like Rust and that feeling....

thus

NO ALTERNATIVE!


I wonder why they don't expel those groups from their events? Would be easy for them, wouldn't? But they do the dirty work for them so they cant.

good night Babba, good night all.

434 Thanos  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:36:59pm

re: #411 Rust Never Sleeps

389 Thanos

I mean that the anti-Jihadist movement will have to work with parties and groups like the VB in Europe.

Small hardcore-Nazi and/or violent groups are out of the question of course. But large groups that both represent (even larger) tendencies and are open to change should.

It is historically inevitable that EVERY nationalist and/or right-wing group in Europe will have unsavory people in their midst. We have the deal with those people, but we should automatically write off the whole movement or party. Otherwise, Europe we'll be left defenseless.

No, we don't have to work with you. Knowing the real goal of these groups it's strategically stupid to do that. The next war in Europe will not come from Islam, but from groups like this. I don't think it wise that Europe fracture to a hundred tribal shards in the face of Islamic Extremism, they would love that. It's ground they know, and operate well on, witness the current situation in Pakistan.

435 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:38:28pm

re: #429 pingjockey

Sadly for us it is not so simple and not just a European problem
and it relates to us in the USA more than anyone thinks or knows and I learn more about it every second
about 35 posts at my blog from now maybe that will be clear LOL

but yea .. the old adage does still apply after all is said and done

problem is the dogs are so well groomed you dont see the fleas

436 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:38:35pm

re: #432 Killgore Trout

I think you're on to something.

437 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:39:03pm

{zucker}
Thanks for everything sleep tight
bussi

438 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:40:09pm

re: #432 Killgore Trout

that was one of the possibilities on my list

439 konservo  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:40:49pm

re: #430 Charles

Charles, a comment over at GoV from "Michael" (who claims to be a member of VB) links to a "Debunking" of the some of the evidence that has been posted here. Michael's 'proof' to the contrary, however, is little more than a collection of links to the bj and the GoV which, as we already know, don't provide any evidence to the contrary.

440 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:41:25pm

re: #436 Sharmuta

Uh oh. I read further into that story and Ca***lics are involved. This thread could derail quickly.

441 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:42:31pm

re: #438 BabbaZee

I was also thinking it might be a white rat genetic type thing.

442 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:42:31pm

re: #440 Killgore Trout

LOL!

443 Charles  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:42:56pm

By the way, the more information that turns up around this issue, the more amazed I am at the position taken by Brussels Journal and Gates of Vienna. They seem to have been able to convince themselves this would never be an issue. Surely they must have realized that they were going to be challenged on the association with Vlaams Belang and Sweden Democrats.

These controversies aren't exactly huge secrets.

444 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:44:02pm

re: #439 konservo

Once again proving

they
have
exactly
zero

to come against this with

dissembling and deflection
is not refutation

445 Thanos  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:44:34pm

re: #432 Killgore Trout

re: #412 konservo


Does anyone know the significance of using a rat as the WN mascot?

Maybe this: Ratlines

Ratlines were systems of escape routes for Nazis and other fascists fleeing Europe at the end of World War II. These escape routes mainly led toward safe havens in South America, particularly Argentina, Paraguay, Brazil and Chile. Other destinations may have included the United States, Canada and the Middle East.

It's a bit of a stretch but it's the only thing I can think of. Maybe "Rat" has another meaning in Dutch or it might be a pun.


Actually Carridine's take on the rat was insightful..

Der Striprubriek... the strip rubric
OED, Rubric
c.1375, "directions in religious services" (often in red writing), from O.Fr. rubrique, from L. rubrica "red ochre, red coloring matter," from ruber, from PIE base *rudhro- (see red)
1.
a. A class or category: "This mission is sometimes discussed under the rubric of 'horizontal escalation' . . . from conventional to nuclear war" Jack Beatty.
b. A title; a name.
2. A part of a manuscript or book, such as a title, heading, or initial letter, that appears in decorative red lettering or is otherwise distinguished from the rest of the text.
3. A title or heading of a statute or chapter in a code of law.
4. Ecclesiastical A direction in a missal, hymnal, or other liturgical book.
5. An authoritative rule or direction.
6. A short commentary or explanation covering a broad subject.
7. Red ocher.
Strip-- a reference to the comic under review, but also perhaps to the band on the Rat's arm.

446 ContraJihadi  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:44:45pm

re 190 konservo

Another thought while I was reading the GoV comment: it was suggested that instead of getting information from the internet, Charles and the rest of the lizards should talk to VB and SD leaders. Now just what is that supposed to accomplish? Certainly it is not too far fetched to suspect that they might lie about their ties to the racist or neonazi movements. The whole point about researching the internet is to investigate multiple sources. Talking to the parties' leaders might offer some insight, especially if you could talk to them live and read the body language, but surely it cannot be useful in the absence of checking the facts. Hmpff!

447 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:47:09pm

re: #443 Charles

These controversies aren't exactly huge secrets.


It was a secret to me till 2 weeks ago, lol

Arrogance precluded the notion that this would not be challenged, which telegraphs to me that the world view they are defending is old and deeply entrenched , not new and of expedience

448 zuckerlilly  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:47:25pm

re: #432 Killgore Trout

re: #412 konservo


Does anyone know the significance of using a rat as the WN mascot?

Maybe this: Ratlines

Ratlines were systems of escape routes for Nazis and other fascists fleeing Europe at the end of World War II. These escape routes mainly led toward safe havens in South America, particularly Argentina, Paraguay, Brazil and Chile. Other destinations may have included the United States, Canada and the Middle East.

It's a bit of a stretch but it's the only thing I can think of. Maybe "Rat" has another meaning in Dutch or it might be a pun.

No, according to an interview with VB Frank Vanhecke in the 'Zuericher Weltwoche' the battle cry is "French rats out'

They call French people rats.

449 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:47:47pm

re: #441 Killgore Trout

dunno about that one lol

450 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:48:29pm

re: #448 zuckerlilly

THATS WHAT IT IS

remember the rat they are carrying in the documentary I posted?

Dankeschoen

451 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:50:02pm

re: #446 ContraJihadi

Tom Paine interviewed Dewinter
go listen to it

452 konservo  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:50:07pm

re: #446 ContraJihadi

Plus the Shire News podcast (link to above) is, in fact, an interview with DeWinter, another piece of evidence that the bj and the GoV tend to overlook.

453 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:51:51pm

re: #445 Thanos

That's very insightful.

454 Thanos  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:52:02pm

If they spoke Dutch in Morrocco I wonder which side VB would be on?

Some background: the two halves of Belgium are mutually atagonistic, and large sectors of both sides would like to split into Flanders and Wallonia in a "velvet divorce" like Czech and Slovakia. The stickpoint is the city of Brussels. Who gets that? Well -- since a large part of the population is Morroccan they speak somewhere between 60-75 percent French -- it all depends on who you ask. If you divide along language culture lines, Brussels would go to Wallonia. So if the Morrocans spoke Dutch, where would VB be at on the issue?

455 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:52:38pm

re: #446 ContraJihadi

it was suggested that instead of getting information from the internet, Charles and the rest of the lizards should talk to VB and SD leaders.

So the solution lies in opening a dialog? This line of reasoning is reminding me of another international issue in which it is employed the palistinians. Isn't that what the left say? We need to talk to abbas and hamas? It don't buy it- no matter which foot the shoe's on.

456 Josephine  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:53:59pm

re: #317 Sharmuta

I think they also had a huge emotional investment in the conference. They seem to have taken his questions as a personal attack. It's too bad they couldn't have stepped back and been objective about the issue and separated the facts from their feelings.

Well, okay, now we see how they respond to honest inquiry: by impugning the timing and motives of the person asking. It's too bad they didn't speak to him privately and clear the air that way.

457 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:56:51pm

re: #443 Charles

They've been working on introducing them to America for years (eg. The Taft Club speech, that idiot from American Thinker) and nobody raised a fuss until now. They whitewashed the bios for the conference and nobody thought twice. Pamela met them and is still convinced. They must be quite charming.

458 Thanos  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:57:00pm

The fact is that GoV has been pimping VB and other nationalist party "cultural purity" talking points for a while now. It's why I quit going there. They are feeling either snookered, used, or still in agreement. I hope it's not the latter.

459 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:58:52pm

re: #457 Killgore Trout

Stan is nothing if not charming

460 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:59:31pm

re: #458 Thanos

I'm pretty sure it's the latter. They knew what they were doing and they're pissed they got caught.

461 zuckerlilly  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:59:47pm

re: #456 Josephine


They do what all people without arguments do, if right wing or left wing:

they don't argue the evidence (b'cause they cant) they argue against the person with the evidence or the source where the evidence comes from. They are stupid.

462 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:00:23pm

re: #456 Josephine

It's too bad they couldn't have stepped back and been objective about the issue and separated the facts from their feelings.

And then we have folks like jeppo claiming we're the ones in hysterics. The bj & gov responses to the evidence are very telling. Anonymous posts on the internet are now proof? Sad.

463 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:00:37pm

re: #458 Thanos

I was totally ignorant of it all till this went down, I hardly ever read there.

But when I did some investigation into the tone and matters of the site and the posters going back over the last few years I can clearly see this is not new at all for them.

464 Josephine  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:03:11pm

re: #319 Charles

re: #310 Josephine

I've tried to refrain from lashing out personally at any of those people, and I'll continue.

Yes, I respect that; it speaks volumes about your character.

465 Sir_Alfred_Dunhill  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:03:49pm

It's clear to most anyone that they are a prototypical fascist party. I can't even believe that this has to be debated...

466 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:03:50pm

re: #457 Killgore Trout

6 degrees of the the Taft Club is a swell game

I was given the VB's appearance at the Taft Club as some sort of exoneration of them from a number of people privately before I put up my first post.

So frikkin stupid!

467 Render  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:04:51pm

[Link: www.tau.ac.il...]

"On 27 January 2005, the occasion of the 60th anniversary of the liberation of the Auschwitz-Birkenau extermination camp, the European Parliament adopted a resolution in which it paid homage to all Nazi victims. It also declared that a durable peace in Europe must be based on the memory of the history of the continent, and that it rejects and condemns revisionist ideas and Holocaust denial. This resolution, which was adopted by 617 votes in favor and none against, nevertheless received 10 abstentions, including those of the three Vlaams Belang representatives: Frank Vanhecke (who happened to be president of the parliament), Koenraad Dillen (an admirer of the Belgian SS general Léon Degrelle, and the son and protégé of the founder-president and author of the first Dutch translation of a revisionist book), and Philip Claeys (formerly head of the VBJ, the party’s youth wing)."

ARMAGEDDON,
R

468 Thanos  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:05:48pm

I'm still giving them the benefit of the doubt here, some people see what they want to see and ignore contrary signs. I don't think either B or D are bad people. Like most of VB's followers, they have good intent.

469 Rust Never Sleeps  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:05:56pm

#434 Thanos

No, we don't have to work with you.


I don't belong to the Vlaams Belang, but to the center-left. Still do. Although I'm partially homeless, since my party is too PC. But believe or not, considering me a member of Vlaams Belang is still an insult to me.

The next war in Europe will not come from Islam, but from groups like this. I don't think it wise that Europe fracture to a hundred tribal shards in the face of Islamic Extremism, they would love that.

Countries like Belgium and Spain are falling apart anyway. This The process has happened in the farmer Sovjet-Union, in Czechoslovakia and in former Yugoslavia, is repeating itself as we speak. But only in Yugoslavia, and the Caucasus, things turned violent. Rest assured, there won't be much violence in Belgium (or Britain for that matter.) It's normal and encouraging that Danes, Catalans, Swedes, Czechs ... look back at their ancient history and roots. And to their common European cultural history, which includes Christianity and Secularization, Enlightenment Democracy and Totalitarianism (we can do without the last one, but should never forget it.)
Where artificial states melt away, people easier recognize their interests, and their mutual interests. Which includes the War against Islamism

470 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:06:09pm

re: #466 BabbaZee

According to the ADL acount Dewinter and Buchanon got along quite well.

471 konservo  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:06:35pm

re: #465 Sir_Alfred_Dunhill

I can't believe it either, but since they are trying to hitch a ride to the counter-jihad movement, they need to be exposed.

472 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:06:55pm

re: #468 Thanos

the road to hell is paved with......

473 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:08:02pm

re: #470 Killgore Trout

don't get me started , LOL


I have enough to post on this crap in perpetuity

474 Dead Sea Squirrel  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:08:40pm

re: #460 Killgore Trout

re: #458 Thanos

I'm pretty sure it's the latter. They knew what they were doing and they're pissed they got caught.

Somehow, this doesn't quite catch it, since it implies conscious dishonesty.

I think they (GoV/BJ/Fjordman et al.) have internalized the rationalizations for a particular kind of racism, to the point that they have genuinely convinced themselves that it is not racism, and when LGF comes along and blows on that house of cards, they are surprised that we find their convulated distinction unconvincing, and angry at the inevitable implication that we think they are racist. We are calling something bad that they have labored to convince themselves is good.

475 Thanos  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:09:13pm

re: #469 Rust Never Sleeps

#434 Thanos


No, we don't have to work with you.

I don't belong to the Vlaams Belang, but to the center-left. Still do. Although I'm partially homeless, since my party is too PC. But believe or not, considering me a member of Vlaams Belang is still an insult to me.

The next war in Europe will not come from Islam, but from groups like this. I don't think it wise that Europe fracture to a hundred tribal shards in the face of Islamic Extremism, they would love that.

Countries like Belgium and Spain are falling apart anyway. This The process has happened in the farmer Sovjet-Union, in Czechoslovakia and in former Yugoslavia, is repeating itself as we speak. But only in Yugoslavia, and the Caucasus, things turned violent. Rest assured, there won't be much violence in Belgium (or Britain for that matter.) It's normal and encouraging that Danes, Catalans, Swedes, Czechs ... look back at their ancient history and roots. And to their common European cultural history, which includes Christianity and Secularization, Enlightenment Democracy and Totalitarianism (we can do without the last one, but should never forget it.)
Where artificial states melt away, people easier recognize their interests, and their mutual interests. Which includes the War against Islamism


Then you certainly have my apology for the errant assumption.

476 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:09:21pm

Render

Philip Claeys


is one bad MFer

477 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:10:17pm

re: #474 Dead Sea Squirrel

That is likely the case for millions of people

Which is why this is so important

478 zuckerlilly  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:10:53pm

re: #474 Dead Sea Squirrel

re: #460 Killgore Trout


re: #458 Thanos

I'm pretty sure it's the latter. They knew what they were doing and they're pissed they got caught.


Somehow, this doesn't quite catch it, since it implies conscious dishonesty.

I think they (GoV/BJ/Fjordman et al.) have internalized the rationalizations for a particular kind of racism, to the point that they have genuinely convinced themselves that it is not racism, and when LGF comes along and blows on that house of cards, they are surprised that we find their convulated distinction unconvincing, and angry at the inevitable implication that we think they are racist. We are calling something bad that they have labored to convince themselves is good.

I agree totally.

479 Josephine  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:12:24pm

re: #461 zuckerlilly

I don't think they're stupid. They're not being rational about this issue. For reasons possibly unknown to themselves, they decided it was a fight and they're fighting dirty.

I do feel, along the lines of what Sharmuta said, that this was the topic that "must not be named".

480 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:13:12pm

zucker you are supposed to be sleeping mine leepshan lol

481 Thanos  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:13:55pm

KT:
The reason I find Carridine's interpretation important is that the founder, Karel Dillen favored the writings of Maurice whosits... they are very educational if you read them, especially the parts that call for tribal, socialist dictatorships to rule in Europe.

482 J.S.  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:14:08pm

re: #408 Charles

I can vaguely get through the French. here's what the Rat is saying (in the event no one else has translated it yet):

Comme si j'n'existais pas, [how come -- I don't exist?]
Elle est passee a cote de moi, [She has passed next to me]
Sans un regard, reine de Sri Lanka. [Without a look/glance, queen of Sri Lanka]
J'ai dit: Aisha, prends: tout est pour toi. [I have said: Aisha, Take: all is for you.]

Voici les perles, les bijoux, [Here are the pearls, the jewels]
Aussi l'or autour de ton cou, [Also the gold for around your neck]
les fruits bien murs au gout de miel, [the fruits well ripened and taste of honey]
Ma vie, aisha, si tu m'aimes. [my life, Aisha, if you love me]

J'irai ou ton souffle nous mene [
dans le parti LDD sans gene.
j'effacerai tes larmes, tes peines. [I will wipe away your tears, your pains.]
rien n'est trop beau pour une si belle. [nothing is too beautiful for one so pretty.]

ooooh. aisha, aisha, ecoute-moi. [o Aisha, listen to me]
don't walk away, etc.

It's a French Rat's love song to his beloved Aisha (ie, Queen of Sri Lanka). (i'm assuming Walloon Rat.) Please excuse the rough translation.

483 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:14:19pm

re: #481 Thanos

KT:
The reason I find Carridine's interpretation important is that the founder, Karel Dillen favored the writings of Maurice whosits... they are very educational if you read them, especially the parts that call for tribal, socialist dictatorships to rule in Europe.


I agree thanos

484 konservo  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:14:20pm

re: #448 zuckerlilly

I'm still confused then. If they call the French 'rats' then why would they use a menacing rat as their own mascot?

485 Charles  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:14:50pm

Those other White Power rats are now posted above...

486 Josephine  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:14:57pm

re: #462 Sharmuta

I agree.

487 zuckerlilly  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:15:04pm

re: #479 Josephine

ok, than let me say: they are not stupid but they argue in a stupid way.

488 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:15:43pm

re: #469 Rust Never Sleeps

Where artificial states melt away, people easier recognize their interests, and their mutual interests. Which includes the War against Islamism

Do ethnic-nationalists believe in an "artificial state"? And wouldn't recognizing our mutual interests not only include islamisation, but recognizing the crypto-fascists in our midst?

489 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:17:07pm

re: #479 Josephine

I think we were supposed to wink, nod and play along.

490 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:17:46pm

both those clips from Cabaret that I posted today have been pulled.

Eerie wierod!

I have to go replace them

491 thecapitalist  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:18:09pm

Luckily Belgium will cease to exist in the next few months or so, so this whole bickering is over.

492 Thanos  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:20:07pm

re: #491 thecapitalist

Luckily Belgium will cease to exist in the next few months or so, so this whole bickering is over.


What do you think the decision on Brussells will be?

493 Render  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:21:59pm

re: #476 BabbaZee

Yup. The third of Dillen's carefully groomed trio.

[Link: www.philipclaeys.be...]

Have you found anything else on Duke's Belgian webmaster?

CHERKASSY
POCKET,
R

494 Former Belgian  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:22:14pm

re: #454 Thanos

If they spoke Dutch in Morrocco I wonder which side VB would be on?

Some background: the two halves of Belgium are mutually atagonistic, and large sectors of both sides would like to split into Flanders and Wallonia in a "velvet divorce" like Czech and Slovakia. The stickpoint is the city of Brussels. Who gets that? Well -- since a large part of the population is Morroccan they speak somewhere between 60-75 percent French -- it all depends on who you ask.


And whether you consider mostly Dutch-speaking de facto outer suburbs like Halle and Vilvoorde to be part of Brussels. For "the 19 boroughs", the figure I heard is more like 85% French-speaking.


If you divide along language culture lines, Brussels would go to Wallonia. So if the Morrocans spoke Dutch, where would VB be at on the issue?

Good question. Who knows, they might consider the Moroccans "honorary Flemings" ;-) (

Of course, French is a second language for the Moroccans, not a first (that would be Arabic, or the local Berber dialect). But since it's used as an administrative and teaching language in Morocco, many of them speak it to begin with and others have an easier time with it than with Dutch.

Some other back-story not everybody here might know: most of these Turkish and Moroccan immigrants were imported at a time when Belgium had essentially 0% unemployment and menial jobs could not be filled by Belgians. While there was always a fundamentalist element among the Turks, the Moroccans used to have a reputation in the Arab world of being a bit lackadaisical about Islam --- alcoholic beverages being openly sold at cafes, for instance. The turn to radical Islam of part of that element is fairly recent, a lot of it traceable to mosques financed by, guess who, the Saudis.

While anti-immigrant propaganda by the Block always had anti-Islamic elements, it used to focus mostly on "they're taking away our jobs when workin and freeload on the dole when not working" type of rethoric. Opposition to radical islamism --- and to the mindless islamo-rimming practiced by some of their political opponents --- has only become an issue with them post-9/11 (when it became as high on the agenda as it did).

This is the difference between them and me. I personally defer to no one in my contempt for radical islamism, which I consider to be the National Socialism of our day. ("In every generation arises the face of Amalek".) But if somebody is an upstanding citizen willing to put in honest work and harbors no designs on me or my neighbors, I couldn't give a rat's backside if they pray at a mosque, church, synagogue, or Buddhist temple, or whether they were black, white, or purple with a green belly. Even if I knew no "backstory" about the VB, most of their old anti-immigrant rethoric struck me as repulsive and little else. I'm sure it was the same with many others.

495 ContraJihadi  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:23:52pm

re: #430 Charles

Yes, I saw that Vlaams Belang parliamentarian Koen Dillen after my #419. Thank you again, Charles, for your research, and for hosting LGF, and for maintaining a mature serenity in the face of all the infantile obfuscation, left and right. (And for putting up with my addiction to alliteration.)

I do believe it's time to hit the tip jar again.

497 Killian Bundy  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:24:24pm

re: #485 Charles

White Power rats

/no match for the White Power Cat!

498 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:24:57pm

re: #493 Render

realwest has my email
send one through him to me
we need to speak in private through this

499 Salem  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:27:37pm

Hmmm, I can't seem to pry myself away from these Vlaams Belang threads and I don't know why.

500 zuckerlilly  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:28:55pm

Extreme- right Flemish militants have tried to intimidate Francophone elected officials at a community meeting near the capital,Brussels. They shouted "Belgium is dead"

Members of the Flemish-speaking Vlaams Bloc confronted their French-speaking compatriots near a municipal council meeting in Wezembeek-Oppem where officials of both communities were discussing a number of demands by the majority French speakers. Some of Francophone groups in communities inside the Flemish part of Belgium want to be able to hold their meetings in French instead of Flemish.

Meanwhile,inside at the meeting, Flemish delegates ripped speakers' notes from the hands of French-speaking delegates when they tried to speak. Outside, the Flemish demonstrators threw eggs at the French-speakers while shouting insults such as "French rats get out".

501 thecapitalist  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:28:58pm

re: #492 Thanos
I hope Brussels can become an independent city state, with Dutch, French and English language facilities.

502 Sommerfeld  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:29:37pm

Now, this is purely a nitpick, but the masonic emblem depicted is a compass and square, not compass and ruler.

503 EE  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:33:20pm

One poster decried "Amerikaans Imperialisme". You don't need a translation to understand that this is anti-American. A basic component of the WN movement is anti-Americanism. And should the WN racists take power, the result may be vast bloodshed, directed at ethnic cleansing that would bring America into the effort to restore sanity. Just as the Nazis were eventually opposed militarily by America.

Another poster showed a Mason symbol combined with a Jewish star. You don't need a translation to understand that this is a continuation of the Nazi propaganda war against Jews and Free Masons.

The Nazi movement did not completely die out. It just went underground and on the fringes for a long time. But it sees a new opportunity to rear its head at this time. It is an effort to try to ride into power on the wave of public discontent. It doesn't matter to the Nazis and the White Power fanatics what the public discontent is about; they will claim to be the people who can solve all problems, just give them the power and then step back and see what they will do. Like the Nazis, they have no conscience, and they will tend to methods that are bloodbaths.

504 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:37:43pm

re: #482 J.S.

It's a French Rat's love song to his beloved Aisha (ie, Queen of Sri Lanka).


Aisha is the name of Mohammad's child bride. Also a common Muslim name.

505 J.S.  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:39:17pm

About that Rat's "love song" -- there's a mention of a LDD Party. Took a look at Wiki to see what this party was...and, guess what? Yep. There's a Dutch Flemish person, Jean-Marie Dedecker, who's elected representative (of the LDD Party). So, took a look (Wiki) for Dedecker -- and he refused to join the Vlaams Belang Party...thus, "traitor" (like a Walloon?)?

Also, btw, in Indonesia they speak Dutch (former colony, etc.)

506 Dead Sea Squirrel  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:44:05pm

Did anyone hear the Atlas Belien interview? I'm curious about it, I must admit

507 Rust Never Sleeps  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:44:49pm

488 Sharmuta 11

All states are to some extent artificial. So much is true. (I know, Libertarians will go a whole lot further. But when the majority of a people wants independence from a state, and when that the institutions of that same state stop functioning, separation might not be a bad thing. I was never a real Flemish nationalist, but independence has become inevitable.

Neonazi are a problem. You shouldn't try to convince me of that. (Unlike many others in Europe, I don't have Nazi collaborators in my family either. My grandfather and his father belonged to the very very few Belgian resistance fighters who were decorated by Dwight Eisenhower at the end of the World War II. He discussed the dangers of Nazism with us until his death. But he wasn't blind for the rise of Islamism either.)

I tried to outline how should be dealt with crytofascists in larger right wing parties in Europe . In America, the situation will be different. We're less fortunate than you.

508 Josephine  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:44:51pm

re: #474 Dead Sea Squirrel

That is spot-on.

509 3 wood  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:45:44pm

re: #498 BabbaZee

Hey Babba.

If there's anything I can do to help you, email me and let me know.

I can do some research for you, if you need the help.

510 Former Belgian  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:45:48pm

re: #505 J.S.

About that Rat's "love song" -- there's a mention of a LDD Party. Took a look at Wiki to see what this party was...and, guess what? Yep. There's a Dutch Flemish person, Jean-Marie Dedecker, who's elected representative (of the LDD Party). So, took a look (Wiki) for Dedecker -- and he refused to join the Vlaams Belang Party...thus, "traitor" (like a Walloon?)?

Also, btw, in Indonesia they speak Dutch (former colony, etc.)

Some may still speak Dutch, although the official language is Bahasa Indonesia (a.k.a. Indonesian Malay, a dialect of Malay written in the Latin/Western alphabet picked up from the Dutch). The dialect includes some borrowings from Dutch.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

511 Render  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:46:19pm

re: #498 BabbaZee

If you have a minute, can you meet me in the Lounge?

R

512 PETN Sandwich  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:47:10pm

re: #502 Sommerfeld

Now, this is purely a nitpick, but the masonic emblem depicted is a compass and square, not compass and ruler.

Now that I bothered to look at it, it's a divider and a square.

For backup.

/LGF - factchecks your ...

513 stvip  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:49:20pm

More guilt by association (each individual piece of guilt by association may not be very convincing, but when one views them all together as a whole, the effect is synergistic and devastating to VB):

Frieda van Temsche: VB member of parliament. Daughter to a person who volunteered to fight in the Waffen SS. Her nephew is Hans van Temsche.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Hans van Temsche: to quote the Wikipedia article on 'motive': "confessed to police – and allegedly to friends before committing the murder – to specifically targeting non-whites. Of the 2-year old (white) child, Van Themsche said she was "in the wrong place at the wrong time."[1] Her death however, was not incidental, since the rifle had to be reloaded before each next shot. The killer allegedly told his interrogators that "the presence near a black was sufficient reason" to kill the toddler."

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

For those who don't like Wikipedia, a different source:
[Link: www.wsws.org...]

514 BabbaZee  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:49:26pm

re: #509 3 wood

thank you 3 wood!
will do

Render

Ok but I am a retard there be patient
and then I have to go to bed

See you all tomorrow

515 Thanos  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:49:53pm

re: #501 thecapitalist

re: #492 Thanos
I hope Brussels can become an independent city state, with Dutch, French and English language facilities.

Somehow this is all sounding very familiar. :) The familiarity ends with the fact that Israel is having rockets fired at them almost daily. So I take the over-amplification of the "threat of Islamification of Europe" with a bit of salt, just like I do my lemons when I eat them. While Belgium screams, it's really Italy, Spain, France who have the big issues.

516 Thanos  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:52:10pm

re: #505 J.S.

About that Rat's "love song" -- there's a mention of a LDD Party. Took a look at Wiki to see what this party was...and, guess what? Yep. There's a Dutch Flemish person, Jean-Marie Dedecker, who's elected representative (of the LDD Party). So, took a look (Wiki) for Dedecker -- and he refused to join the Vlaams Belang Party...thus, "traitor" (like a Walloon?)?

Also, btw, in Indonesia they speak Dutch (former colony, etc.)

Along the same line, I found the Blog of the Cartoonist Fre....

Here's a sample that compares two flavors of Flemish Nationalism I think... note the flag Frank Vanheck(sp?) from VB on the left is carrying.

517 Josephine  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:53:26pm

re: #487 zuckerlilly

re: #479 Josephine

ok, than let me say: they are not stupid but they argue in a stupid way.

I agree.

518 Render  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:55:24pm

re: #514 BabbaZee

I'm just gonna send you a private message with my email addy through the Lounge.

MMMK?,
R

519 J.S.  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:56:00pm

re: #504 Killgore Trout

Sri Lanka also has a Dutch connection (colonial days).

520 zmdavid  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:57:01pm

re: #507 Rust Never Sleeps
Are there VB leaders who don't have shady pasts? A party should be judged primarily by the candidates it puts forth. If VB is trying to moderate, who are their moderate candidates?

521 neocon hippie  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:57:14pm

re: #383 jeppo

re: #355 Sharmuta

re: #352 jeppo

Including the "ethno-nationalism" aspect?

I think ethno-nationalism in Europe is a perfectly valid position, shared by countries from Japan to Jamaica.

So you would support:

1) The denial of even legal immigration, with no chance of ever earning, citizenship, if from countries not of the same race or ethnicity as the host countries?

2) The idea that even citizens of another race or ethnicity born in the host country could ever be seen as equal citizens to or even denied the rights of those of the majority ethnicity of the country?

3) Ethnic cleansing aka deportation of citizens or non-citizens alike for the crime of being of a race or ethnicity other than that of the dominant majority?

Please do tell.

522 Josephine  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:57:49pm

re: #489 Sharmuta

re: #479 Josephine

I think we were supposed to wink, nod and play along.

Yes, I think so, too.

Standing up against racism and for integrity doesn't always make you popular; that's why it's a hard choice for some people. There is often a cost when you go against the grain.

523 Former Belgian  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:59:27pm

re: #507 Rust Never Sleeps

488 Sharmuta 11

All states are to some extent artificial. So much is true. (I know, Libertarians will go a whole lot further. But when the majority of a people wants independence from a state, and when that the institutions of that same state stop functioning, separation might not be a bad thing. I was never a real Flemish nationalist, but independence has become inevitable.

Neonazi are a problem. You shouldn't try to convince me of that. (Unlike many others in Europe, I don't have Nazi collaborators in my family either. My grandfather and his father belonged to the very very few Belgian resistance fighters who were decorated by Dwight Eisenhower at the end of the World War II. He discussed the dangers of Nazism with us until his death. But he wasn't blind for the rise of Islamism either.)

I tried to outline how should be dealt with crytofascists in larger right wing parties in Europe . In America, the situation will be different. We're less fortunate than you.

I think your perspective is a very useful one here. I'm sad to say that every time I visit Belgium, I leave more convinced we did the right thing by emigrating. You mentioned being a center-leftist (presumably you voted Labor, like I used to) and being politically homeless now. Many people here have done an admirable job of finding (on the whole fairly damning) evidence about the VB. Few have done a good job of explaining why people like yourself --- that realy are not represented by any of the establishment parties --- are a potential electoral reservoir for the Block. "Nature abhors a vacuum". If some of the establishment parties had stopped ignoring the elephant in the room even 5 years ago, the Block would be a good deal weaker than it is now.

524 straitcircle  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 6:00:28pm

Karl MArx was a racist. the Democrats love socialism, in which Marx was its modern founder. He hated Jews, many USA Dems hate Jews and so do the Demo swedos....

No affiliation with hatred of the Jews -- in the fight against Islamic intrusion of juridical mud into this country.

Michael Jackson is now more whiter than white. This can only be explained by the unexplained.. talking about the unexplained....

Alcee Hastings (D-FLA) tells FOX NEWS: 'Dennis Kucinich is on a quest of his own. He sees flying saucers and he acts like one, too'... Developing...Dur..ge

525 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 6:01:57pm

re: #507 Rust Never Sleeps

All states are to some extent artificial.

That's not what I asked. I asked if ethno-nationalists believed that.

526 thecapitalist  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 6:03:28pm

re: #505 J.S.

LDD is anti-Zionist though...

527 J.S.  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 6:05:18pm

re: #510 Former Belgian

According to my NY Times Almanac (paper version), the "principal languages" are "Bahasa (official)", followed by "English, Dutch, Javanese." I've known Muslims who spoke both English and Dutch from Indonesia.

528 J.S.  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 6:09:14pm

re: #526 thecapitalist

O no...that complicates matters, doesn't it? one confusing mess...(seems like everyone's at each other's throats...must be difficult at times trying to keep it all straight..)

529 Render  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 6:10:06pm

re: #514 BabbaZee

If it's any consolation, I'm feeling a bit retarded too...

I can't remember how to turn my nic blue.

WHAAA,
R

530 EE  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 6:10:45pm

The "Odin's Cross" symbol was first popularized in the White Supremacist movement by the Ku Klux Klan.
[Link: www.adl.org...]

But in our times this is the most popular symbol of White Supremacist groups all over the world, not just the Ku Klux Klan.

The swastika had an existence before it was adapted by the Nazi movement. Likewise, the Odin's Cross, or Celtic Cross, had an existence before it was adapted by the Ku Klux Klan, and later by White Supremacist groups all over the world.

But after their adaption by hate groups, when one sees the swastika one thinks of the Nazis, and when one sees the Odin's Cross one thinks of the White Supremacists. And it's a way for the hate groups (and individuals) to recognize each other also.

531 NY Nana  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 6:14:28pm

re: #506 Dead Sea Squirrel

I saw the thread, but to be honest, did not watch them. I was so totally disgusted at her idiocy and blindness to reality that I would not waste my time. I still cannot believe she could do this. Incredible.

Here it is, and notice the comments; one is rational, the others are group speak. And all comments have to be pre-approved by her.

532 Killian Bundy  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 6:15:10pm

re: #529 Render

I can't remember how to turn my nic blue.

/check the "Show email" box when you comment

533 Render  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 6:16:56pm

re: #532 Killian Bundy

oh yeah...(duh)...

THANK
YOU,
R

534 J.S.  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 6:17:27pm

re: #516 Thanos

Indeed. Looks like the lion on the right has been de-clawed and is sleeping... So, who's the fellow (with the eye-glasses) on the right, do you think? (In that "The Hidden Face of Vlaams Belang" documentary, as I recall, someone put a sleeping cap on that Lion Statue.)

535 Rust Never Sleeps  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 6:18:09pm

I'm not the best person to speak for ethno-nationalists. But they will certainly consider states like the former Soviet-Union, Czechoslovakia, Belgium, ... as artificial. They mean that those states are inhabited by different people in different regions who have different, sometimes antagonistic inspirations. Like in an failed marriage, divorce might be the only solution.

BTW, to extent the analogy, I prefer divorce in mutual agreement, i.e. after long negotiations with international observers. I reject any violent solution. Some 'real' ethno-nationalists might see this differently ...

536 Rust Never Sleeps  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 6:20:08pm

523 Former Belgian

Few have done a good job of explaining why people like yourself --- that relay are not represented by any of the establishment parties --- are a potential electoral reservoir for the Block.

I can't imagine voting for them.

537 jeppo[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 6:29:31pm
538 zuckerlilly  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 6:30:47pm

VB and Volen Siderov (Bulgaria)

Recognize the guy on the far right? You’re right. Once again, it is Siderov. The picture is taken at a conference taking place in Moscow in January 2002. Siderov is not alone on this picture either. In fact, he is standing in a group of Holocaust revisionist celebrities. In the back you can spot David Duke?, the founder of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?. All the way to the left you can see Ahmed Rami? of Radio Islam, by the E.U. Monitoring Center on Racism and Xenophobia described as “one of the most radical right wing anti-Semitic homepages on the net with close links to radical Islam groups”.

Confused? You wonder why Vlaams Belang meet with Holocaust revisionists? You wonder what the star of the Bulgarian far right, in spite of its very much outspoken sentiments on Muslims, has in common with an anti-Semitic Muslim radio host from Sweden?

----------

Siderov was also a guest of the Austrian FPOE 'Freedom academy" in November 2005 togehter with VB, FN, Alessandra Mussolini and Corneliu V. Tudor (Romania).

539 Former Belgian  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 6:30:54pm

re: #536 Rust Never Sleeps

523 Former Belgian

Few have done a good job of explaining why people like yourself --- that relay are not represented by any of the establishment parties --- are a potential electoral reservoir for the Block.

I can't imagine voting for them.

Since you already have smelled a rat (with a "gunsight cross" armband) :-)

540 jehu  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 6:31:21pm

I seem to remember that Nazi propaganda pictured Jews as rats. I think the rat stuff comes from the The Nazi propaganda film, Der ewige Jude (The Eternal Jew), which had maps showing the migrations of Jews with scenes of teaming rats. I don't think these people are very subtle.

541 zuckerlilly  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 6:32:59pm

re: #531 NY Nana

re: #506 Dead Sea Squirrel

I saw the thread, but to be honest, did not watch them. I was so totally disgusted at her idiocy and blindness to reality that I would not waste my time. I still cannot believe she could do this. Incredible.

Here it is, and notice the comments; one is rational, the others are group speak. And all comments have to be pre-approved by her.

He tries to infiltrate Americans. Disgusting.

542 PETN Sandwich  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 6:40:34pm

Not to pick-a-nit, but,

1) The denial of even legal immigration, with no chance of ever earning, citizenship, if from countries not of the same race or ethnicity as the host countries?

First, denial of legal immigration would by intent deny earning citizenship.
Second, with few exceptions by definition, those from other countries are of different ethnicity.

543 NY Nana  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 6:42:05pm

re: #541 zuckerlilly

For an American Jew who posted that she lost family in the Shoah? It is totally incomprehensible to me that she could even think of supporting them. Just incredible.

She also made a statement the day she started this fight re 'all Europeans were double dealing', or something equally repugnant in that she lumped everyone in, including her relatives and mine. From the beginning she was reprehensible and remains so to this second.

I never thought that she was capable of this.

And Charles still has not received a real apology.

544 neocon hippie  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 6:42:35pm

re: #537 jeppo

re: #521 neocon hippie

re: #383 jeppo


re: #355 Sharmuta


re: #352 jeppoIncluding the "ethno-nationalism" aspect?


I think ethno-nationalism in Europe is a perfectly valid position, shared by countries from Japan to Jamaica.


So you would support:1) The denial of even legal immigration, with no chance of ever earning, citizenship, if from countries not of the same race or ethnicity as the host countries?

2) The idea that even citizens of another race or ethnicity born in the host country could ever be seen as equal citizens to or even denied the rights of those of the majority ethnicity of the country?

3) Ethnic cleansing aka deportation of citizens or non-citizens alike for the crime of being of a race or ethnicity other than that of the dominant majority?

Please do tell.

No, I would absolutely not support any of those three policies, period.

Then how would you define "ethno-nationalism" so that it wouldn't have any of the above policies as a goal?

545 NY Nana  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 6:45:04pm

re: #541 zuckerlilly

I was side tracked...

He tries to infiltrate Americans. Disgusting.

And when you look at Atlas' blog, you see that he has met with some degree of success.

546 Former Belgian  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 6:48:32pm

Just as I thought this couldn't get any more confusing: I googled a bit about Dewinter's claim that his father was in the Resistance. On the following page,

[Link: 72.14.205.104...]

his spokesman makes the following claim (my translation):

"Filip Dewinter does not take accusations of "fascism" lying down. His father was arrested for evasion of [conscripted] labor service [for the Germans] , and deported to a labor camp in Germany. His grandfather was in the Resistance and a member of the White Brigade [one of the main resistance groups, FB]."
[context]
For Americans unfamiliar with this: the Nazis conscripted labor all over the countries they occupied, including among "Germanic" populations like Holland and Belgium. Treatment varied from merely unpleasant if you were of Aryan blood to you-can-imagine for Poles and Russians. In Belgium they tried recruiting first, but all the pro-Nazis preferred parading around in black uniforms over working their butts off in a German arms factory, and the anti-Nazis obviously didn't show up --- so they ended up resorting to mass conscription by force.
[/context]

The story about Dewinter gets curiouser and curiouser. If his claims were demonstrably false, his opponents would for sure have made enough hay out of this that one of us should be able to find a refutation.

Yet if true, he somehow seems to be able to abide the company of people that aided and abetted the jailers of his father, and might have had the grandfather tortured and shot to death.

But, I guess, if a guy with a Jewish father can be crazy enough to become head of the American Nazi Party [[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
then I guess everything is possible, especially if you're a politician with your eye on the big prize...

[Original Dutch: "Filip Dewinter pikt het niet dat hij als fascist omschreven wordt. De vader van Filip Dewinter werd immers tijdens WOII als werkweigeraar gevangen gezet en nadien gedeporteerd naar Duitsland om er verplicht tewerk gesteld te worden. De grootvader van Filip Dewinter was weerstander en lid van de witte brigade.")]

547 zuckerlilly  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 6:49:35pm

re: #543 NY Nana

re: #541 zuckerlilly

For an American Jew who posted that she lost family in the Shoah? It is totally incomprehensible to me that she could even think of supporting them. Just incredible.

She also made a statement the day she started this fight re 'all Europeans were double dealing', or something equally repugnant in that she lumped everyone in, including her relatives and mine. From the beginning she was reprehensible and remains so to this second.

I never thought that she was capable of this.

And Charles still has not received a real apology.

I asked her about 'Papa Ruby' Geller

548 zuckerlilly  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 7:02:54pm

re: #547 zuckerlilly


She also made a statement the day she started this fight re 'all Europeans were double dealing', or something equally repugnant in that she lumped everyone in, including her relatives and mine. From the beginning she was reprehensible and remains so to this second.

My father was a freedom fighter who was sent to the concentration camp of Woellersdorf (first under the Austro-fascists than under the Nazis) and later to Dachau. He was sentenced to death and with the help of friends (he was a well known athlete, soccer player and mountain climber) he could escape. An aunt was tortured at the Gestapo Hauptquartier in Berlin and later hanged. Her 15 year old brother was sent to a KZ and another uncle was sentenced to death and hanged. Every week the Gestapo was at the home of my grandmother searching the apartment.

And now I should ally with fascists? Never!

btw: after WWII the US were searching my father b'cause they knew who he was and made him head of the 'Repatriierungskommitee" in Salzburg.

549 hazzyday  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 7:09:29pm

If I am not mistaken this all started with Atlas flipping out. A flipped out Atlas with crypto fasicists in tow is not a ship I would let sail into my harbor. Hindsight says the pot was stirred on the other side.

Atlas get some humility.

VB get some honest press releases.

Charles well done.

Jeppo , when the questions got tough you ran away. You were afraid to mention the Odin's cross. Good points but you make the crypto part seem real.

Rust ... well said. VB is big, I am sure they have had tougher criticisms from the fascist left in Belgium. But what do they have to fear by being a little more honest to Americans? or any other concerned person? Another telling point is the character assassination Paul Belien wished to pursure. not base on any facts. People have said some bad words here, but basically they want to work on some facts.

There is an article done by a European scholar that suggests far right fascist parties once in power compromise with the center. But none of them have been as bad as people make them out to be. But none of them have held national office yet.

VB a large party, heavily critcized, circles its wagons, ignores the interent, fails to get a cohesive message out. Time to get new PR or fold up like Dan Rather. Opportunities abound. You can jettison completely the neo nazi odin's cross from Stormfront on DeWinters shelf and move ahead strictly on an anti jihad basis. Chuck your sentimental Iron Crosses away and look at the bigger picture.

550 jeppo[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 7:16:54pm
551 Thanos  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 7:19:11pm

Don't know if anyone is still out there, but here are a couple of interesting links.

IJzerwake
Here's an IJzerwake site, go back and look at the photos from past years in the left sidebar.


A political montage vid from VB, note the many lebensrunes on flags, note the calls for "Amnestie Nu" on the banners. (Amnesty Now)

Here's Bert Deckers site

552 neocon hippie  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 7:19:24pm

Pamela has all of three comments on the Paul Belien interview thread.

553 Thanos  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 7:23:44pm

re: #550 jeppo

I would define ethno-nationalism in Belgian terms as the right of the Flemish people to their own independent nation. The Flemish are a distinct people, no better or worse than any other ethnic group, united by language, culture and history. The right of self-determination applies to them as it does to every other ethno-cultural group on Earth.

I know of other ethno-national groups who say pretty much the same thing, but in Urdu.

554 itellu3times  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 7:24:02pm

OK, now LGF is pro-Masonic and anti-rodent.

555 hazzyday  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 7:27:56pm

I've no problem is Flanders becomes it's own. Seems like natural progression to me from here. If it kills the EU good.

556 neocon hippie  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 7:29:54pm

re: #550 jeppo

re: #544 neocon hippie

I would define ethno-nationalism in Belgian terms as the right of the Flemish people to their own independent nation. The Flemish are a distinct people, no better or worse than any other ethnic group, united by language, culture and history. The right of self-determination applies to them as it does to every other ethno-cultural group on Earth.

This is something natural and normal in human affairs. That's why there are almost 200 sovereign states in the world. I really don't understand your contention that it would have to include suppression of minorities or ethnic cleansing. An independent Flanders would be a great ally of America and Israel, particularly when compared to the rapidly Islamizing, corrupt and artificial country of Belgium.

In your conception, can, say, a first-generation Moroccan or Portuguese inhabitant of Flanders become a Fleming if they assimilate into the language and culture and learn the history? The problem with the VB is that they are defining Flanders by virtue of race/ethnicity, not language/culture/history. Same with the other "ethno-nationalist" parties.

The ethno-nationalist conception is rather different from what you're proposing, and as we know from recent history, rather problematic to say the least.

I won't support the VB until they loudly, clearly and irrevocably renounce their association and ties with historical Nazism, neo-Nazism, and fascists and white nationalists of all stripes. How will we know that this has happened. When Stormfront despises VB.

557 itellu3times  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 7:33:59pm

re: #550 jeppo

I would define ethno-nationalism in Belgian terms as the right of the Flemish people to their own independent nation.

Yeah, and surfer dudes in SoCal should secede, make everything west of the 405 into the independent state of Cowabunga.

The Flemish are a distinct people, no better or worse than any other ethnic group, united by language, culture and history. The right of self-determination applies to them as it does to every other ethno-cultural group on Earth.

OK, you're really Woodrow Wilson, right?

This is something natural and normal in human affairs.

Not especially. It's the New Tribalism. In many ways, it's the exact opposite of the principals on which the US was founded.

That's why there are almost 200 sovereign states in the world.

That's naive, there are all sorts of reasons of history and geography at work. Some things only a large nation can attempt, or a coalition of small nations, but most small nations live only under the umbrella of the powers of the time.

I really don't understand your contention that it would have to include suppression of minorities or ethnic cleansing. An independent Flanders would be a great ally of America and Israel, particularly when compared to the rapidly Islamizing, corrupt and artificial country of Belgium.

But by that same logic, the remainder of Belgium would fall that much farther and faster, and the net effects are unclear, at best. Does your left hand deserve independence from your right hand, heck, they're opposites in so many ways!

558 Thanos  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 7:59:41pm
559 jeppo[deleted]  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 8:02:30pm
560 NY Nana  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 8:02:41pm

re: #547 zuckerlilly

I totally missed that part of the thread. Had I seen it? I would have said something.

I just hope that she does not return to post here. Let her talk to herself on her blog...it seems that she is doing that anyhow.

561 NY Nana  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 8:04:24pm

re: #552 neocon hippie

And one was rational.

562 konservo  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 8:48:34pm

re: #559 jeppo


Yes, an immigrant can become a Fleming by learning the language and fully assimilating into the larger Flemish culture. This is best exemplified by the Muslim and immigrant members of the Vlaams Belang.


Oh yes, the Muslim and immigrant 'members' of Vlaams Belang (also known as "a Muslim and an immigrant that who Vlaams Belang keep around ever since Vlaams Blok was found to be racist).

But jeppo, in regard to Vlaams Belang, do you really think VB accepts Muslims and immigrants? Isn't their whole platform... you know... extremely anti-immigration and anti-Muslim? And, surely, you've heard Dewinter ranting about 'a white Europe,' haven't you? How about Dewinter's statement about how he would know that he failed as a father if his daughter dated a black guy, or a Jewish guy, or another woman (the 3 are equally repulsive to Dewinter)?

Are considering these things (which come straight from Dewinter's mouth) when you defend VB?

ps: I didn't even bring up the amnesty to Nazi collaborators, or the numerous other ties to WN groups in the US and in Europe.

563 Former Belgian  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 9:13:38pm

re: #562 konservo


How about Dewinter's statement about how he would know that he failed as a father if his daughter dated a black guy, or a Jewish guy, or another woman (the 3 are equally repulsive to Dewinter)?


In case of a hypothetical son of mine dating Dewinter's daughter, the revulsion would be entirely mutual. Then again, if she converted it might be seen as divine retribution (just can see him screaming and throwing his gunsight cross at the wall...
)

564 pbird  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 9:15:42pm

re: #432 Killgore Trout

re: #412 konservo

Does anyone know the significance of using a rat as the WN mascot?
Maybe this: Ratlines
Ratlines were systems of escape routes for Nazis and other fascists fleeing Europe at the end of World War II. These escape routes mainly led toward safe havens in South America, particularly Argentina, Paraguay, Brazil and Chile. Other destinations may have included the United States, Canada and the Middle East.
It's a bit of a stretch but it's the only thing I can think of. Maybe "Rat" has another meaning in Dutch or it might be a pun.


I think its because they like to see themselves as scrappy ruffians, such as the rat.

565 Dead Sea Squirrel  Tue, Nov 6, 2007 9:20:01pm

re: #564 pbird

I think its because they like to see themselves as scrappy ruffians, such as the rat.

That was my first reaction too. The sort of "Yeah, we baaaad" coolness that teens like. It's similar to, oh I don't know, using lizards as an identifying mascot.

/squirrels are cuter

566 Shelbourne  Wed, Nov 7, 2007 12:03:58am

re: #61 stvip

re: #50 Shelbourne

Great!

[Link: yelloman1.blogspot.com...]

Of course, I don't expect you to translate all of it (are you Dutch, by the way?) - just find the worst.

Also, there's a 2004 documentary: "documentaire : "la face cachee du Vlaams blok" ("The Hidden Face of Vlaams Blok) with Dutch subtitles, which seems very revealing.
(although it's in French, I can't translate it from the audio - unless pronounced very slowly and clearly, spoken French is unintelligible to me, unlike written French)

Okay, I had a long look at the website to see if there was anything to find to further proof the points we have been making over the past, what, 2 weeks.

1. The video "Manifestatie in Elsene"
This was not a VB demonstration, but a rally by several other right-wing extremist groups like NATION and VJW.
In the video itself, you just see how a small group of demonstrators are being instructed in how to deal with the police etc.

2. The quotes
Allthough these quotes look interesting, there is no proof offered to trace them.
I have translated some of them:

"Vertel me uw idee, zodat ik weet wat ik moet afschieten" Vanhecke in een door de VRT gefilmd gsm-gesprek met Verstrepen
Means: "Tell me your idea, so that I know whom I need to have shot."
This is a quote by Vanhecke, a member of the VB, to a mr. Verstrepen (whom I don't know) and was filmed by the VRT (Flemish Regional Television).

"Hun namen staan voorgoed in het geheugen van deze jurist gegrift , ze zijn gewaarschuwd voor de rest van hun carrière ". VB-kopstuk Gerolf Annemans bedreigt de rechters die het Vlaams Blok hebben veroordeeld (november 2004).

Means:"Their names will remain in the memory of this lawyer, they are warned for the rest of their careers."
This is a quote by a high ranking VB-Member, Gerolf Annemans, in regards to the judges that sentenced the Vlaams Blok (the pre-decessor of the Vlaams Belang)

"Eens de democratie in chaos ineenstuikt, hoop ik dat er een ijzeren fascistische hand is om over te nemen" Hasseltse NSV-voorzitter en 17 op de lijst van het vlaams belang in Heusden Zolder Thierry Vanroy op het internet
Means: ,,When the democraty fails, I hope an iron facistic rule will take over."
This was the NSV-chairman for Hasselt who is also a member of the VB in Heusden Zolder, Thierry Vanroy, on the internet.

Most other articles have not much to do with the VB (except some joy over an attack on one of their pubs by left-wingers and morrocon youth), but focusses mainly on Blood and Honour, a facistic movement, which in a worse case scenario will function as the VB's personal SA (Sturm Abteilung) and orchestrate the violence.
I would not underestimate them, as they seem to have support from several supportergroups in Belgium.
Is there proof for a relation between B&H and the Vlaams Belang ? I did not find any printed or published links or articles yet, but I do have confirmation of the links between them from several (right wing) Belgiums who were bragging about them splitting the country soon.

Also... Today is an important day for Belgium. If they do not manage to get a government in place by 23:59:59, Belgium will fall in a constitual crisis which will (in time) lead to the mentioned split between the "rich" Flanders and the "poor" Wallonians.

@ #83
Thanks for the offer, but as I said.. first I have to return to Holland and see for myself what options are open to solve the issues of islamisation AND right-wing extremism.

567 konservo  Wed, Nov 7, 2007 12:16:06am

re: #566 Shelbourne

I've read comments at the bj which said that the 'yellowman' blog was leftist and biased. Did you get that vibe, and if so, do you think that the information* from that blog is credible?

*info other than the video evidence that we have already seen, because, assuming that it has not been altered, the video evidence does not rely on the credibility of the blog on which it was posted

568 Highrise  Wed, Nov 7, 2007 12:20:01am

Charles,

Thanks for being on first and on top of this stuff. It is noticed and it is why you are The Bomb :) .

569 Shelbourne  Wed, Nov 7, 2007 2:47:17am

re: #567 konservo

re: #566 Shelbourne

I've read comments at the bj which said that the 'yellowman' blog was leftist and biased. Did you get that vibe, and if so, do you think that the information* from that blog is credible?

*info other than the video evidence that we have already seen, because, assuming that it has not been altered, the video evidence does not rely on the credibility of the blog on which it was posted

I do think the side is pretty anti ant biased against the VB. They deliberately put innocent VB articles between Ultra Right Wing Articles about organisations like B&H.

In other words, if this was the only source with negative comments on the VB, and there were no video's available, I would not believe it.

570 BabbaZee  Wed, Nov 7, 2007 4:15:41am

Render
So sorry
I never got into the lounge
the computer froze up when I clicked to go in
and now this morning I can not get Firefox to start at all.

WTF!

571 BabbaZee  Wed, Nov 7, 2007 4:27:37am

Whew
Firefox fixed.
I have ten million links of research on this alone in here
If I lost it I think I would have cried

Reading the rest of this thread now

572 BabbaZee  Wed, Nov 7, 2007 4:42:52am

Render

The LGF safemail is giving me a blankscreen, this happened day before yesterday too when I tried to contact formercorpsman

I wrote Charles on it... developing!

;~}

573 BabbaZee  Wed, Nov 7, 2007 4:54:23am

Thank you to everyone on this thread

Former Belgian and Shelbourne especially

We are in the middle of some heavy duty crap here my friends

574 Yank in the EU  Wed, Nov 7, 2007 6:10:20am

re: #383 jeppo

re: #355 Sharmuta


re: #352 jeppo

Including the "ethno-nationalism" aspect?


I think ethno-nationalism in Europe is a perfectly valid position, shared by countries from Japan to Jamaica.

This is surely the root of the problem -- the tendency to view a certain form of ethnic nationalism (the Dewinter's and the VB's white nationalism) as acceptable and historically understandable. Many of us are rejecting that exclusive idea of nationalism that somehow brings in race, while of course strongly agreeing with nationalism based on language, values, culture, etc. The former is something the Vlaams Belang has brought into their ideology (whether it wants to do so now is unclear) -- and we know this from clear evidence (e.g. 'a white Europe') and I know this personally as a resident in Flanders who's observed this particular brand of ethnic populism first hand. Many of us are hoping (such as myself who supported the 'moderate faction in the VB') that the VB decides to deal with these valid and serious criticisms of its ideology and some of its members, but instead what has been disappointing to say the least are the great efforts by VB supporters at serially missing the point, going immediately on the counter-attack against its 'intellectually inferior' American critics, and obfuscating the evidence that people dug up and translated. That failure by the VB's side to deal openly and frankly with the issues raised by its opponents is, to my mind, the worst problem.

575 Shelbourne  Wed, Nov 7, 2007 7:26:50am

re: #574 Yank in the EU

WELL SAID !

(and sorry for the all-Caps)

576 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Nov 7, 2007 7:36:46am
577 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Nov 7, 2007 7:37:58am
578 Former Belgian  Wed, Nov 7, 2007 7:42:29am

re: #566 Shelbourne


2. The quotes
Allthough these quotes look interesting, there is no proof offered to trace them.
I have translated some of them:

"Vertel me uw idee, zodat ik weet wat ik moet afschieten" Vanhecke in een door de VRT gefilmd gsm-gesprek met Verstrepen
Means: "Tell me your idea, so that I know whom I need to have shot."


The other translations are roughly correct, but this one is idiomatically a bit more innocuous in "Flemish" Dutch: "Tell me your idea/view, so I know what I have to debunk" [literally: "shoot down", common Flemish idiom which I've ben known to use when speaking Dutch ;-)].

"whom I need to have shot" would be "wie ik moet laten doodschieten".

Not that I trust Vanhecke any more than you do, mind you ;-)

579 Rust Never Sleeps  Wed, Nov 7, 2007 8:35:10am

#566 Shelbourne
578 Former Belgian

Shelbourne,

Former Belgian's translation is the right.

I getting fed up with the all the quotes from Flemish ultra-left websites on LGF. (I know some of those people from a past I'd like to forget.)

580 damnyanqui  Wed, Nov 7, 2007 8:55:54am

Yeah, a nasty looking bunch of folks.
But I keep hearing the voice of the decidedly un-racist Abraham Lincoln who said "A house divided against itself cannot stand," to which I'd add "especially when some psychopaths on the outside are trying to tear it down."
Yes, Americans can shunt the local right-wing nutjobs off into the outer darkness of political discourse.
But in Europe, seriously folks, WHO ELSE IS LEFT to stand strongly against the terrorists?
The "mainstream" political establishment is so hopelessy compromised with spineless political correctness that I suspect many people of good faith concerned about the self destruction of civilization on the continent find nowhere to turn except those groups with tainted backgrounds.
If we have a strong-willed collection of proto-Nazis willing to throw themselves between us and the terrorists then... well...

581 konservo  Wed, Nov 7, 2007 9:30:48am

Hmmm... so it looks like the 'yellowman1' blog might be useful for video clips, but quoting from the site itself may not be such a great idea...

582 J.S.  Wed, Nov 7, 2007 10:13:14am

re: #581 konservo

Frankly, I wouldn't waste my time with the majority of political blogs (particularly those which are anonymous). Clearly, these kinds of blogs have an agenda, and are apt to be deliberately misleading. I wouldn't bother with them.

Other blogs (such as LGF -- whose creator is neither anonymous nor oblivious to critics (corrections are made)) are different. Generally speaking, you can (usually) tell whether a person is actively seeking to find out the facts/truth of a situation or is out to obfuscate, dissemble, etc. I think Charles is in the former category. (GofV, B Journal, etc, strike me as in the latter category).

(With regard to the current issue -- I thought the Hidden Face of Vlaams Blok was a good video insofar as establishing a background for various individuals...putting them into a historical perspective...revealing who these people are...)

583 Shelbourne  Wed, Nov 7, 2007 11:36:11am

re: #580 damnyanqui

The "mainstream" political establishment is so hopelessy compromised with spineless political correctness that I suspect many people of good faith concerned about the self destruction of civilization on the continent find nowhere to turn except those groups with tainted backgrounds.
If we have a strong-willed collection of proto-Nazis willing to throw themselves between us and the terrorists then... well...

I can definitly see where you are coming from. However, what (us) Europeans must understand, is that an anti-islamic movement without majority support, will not bring any result.
The majority of the people may find that the islamisation is a serious thread, but there will never be a majority in favor of parties with a tainted past.
In several countries however, we see the rise of politicians that are willing to critisize islam (Geert Wilders, Rita Verdonk - Netherlands, Sarkozy - France). What it takes now, is that we see a grassroots movement arise that is patriotic/nationalistic in the right way.
This means, i.m.o., not to differentiate based on colour of skin, but a party that is willing and able to give a clear vision of how they want to uphold one's national culture (language, art, society) and it's core principles (freedom of speech, religion, sexual preference and equality).

584 Rust Never Sleeps  Wed, Nov 7, 2007 11:56:17am

583 Shelbourne 11

Flanders is not the Netherlands.

To everybody else, Belgium is falling apart as we speak. It has been federalized for a reason, decades ago. But even federalism can't solve the problem anymore. This has little to do with the VB.

I invite everybody on LGF who uses names like 'tribalism' to explain how Belgium (a country younger than the US) should be put 'back' 'together'.

585 Rust Never Sleeps  Wed, Nov 7, 2007 12:20:47pm

549 hazzyday

The Vlaams Blok of the early eighties was horrible. (A lot of the videoposts refer back to that past.) The Vlaams Blok of the late nineties was more acceptable. The Vlaams Belang is, again, an improvement over the Vlaams Blok of the late nineties.

That's the only way forward I think, they have to be 'civilized' dfrom within and 'purify' themselves before they can come to power. And they will, they are as power hungry as any political party. (In other words, the cordon sanitaire is (probably?) working.)

586 Stogiechomper  Wed, Nov 7, 2007 12:22:14pm

Charles, this VB debate is over. You are clearly the winner.

587 J.S.  Wed, Nov 7, 2007 12:56:18pm

re: #584 Rust Never Sleeps

Yeah, I'm reading that Belgium is breaking up over language issues (reminds me of Canada's problems, re: Quebec, etc.). I read that the Flemish parties refuse to allow (refuse to compromise on) a certain area (Flemish area, but with Francophone residents) to allow French-speaking politicians to run for office...thus, disenfranchising Francophones...(on the surface this sounds pretty unfair...but I haven't heard the other side of the story.) There's talk that the King may be forced to step in...(to keep the country together).

588 Shelbourne  Wed, Nov 7, 2007 1:15:29pm

re: #584 Rust Never Sleeps

Allthough I do see the validity of the Flanders strife for independence, it is quite clearly, that the time is not ripe yet for such a move.
I applaud the Flemish parties for their unity and breaking the cordon sanitaire.

However, that does not take away the fact, that the VB has several members in high positions that are rightfully brandished extremists.
If the VB gets rid of these members, if all ties with extremist organisations are broken THEN I am confident their struggle will be rewarded.

589 BabbaZee  Wed, Nov 7, 2007 2:19:26pm

re: #576 taxfreekiller

thanks TFK
I agree with you actually
my personal will says there are other things to do
but spirit says I have to do this thing
even though I do not want to

590 konservo  Wed, Nov 7, 2007 2:37:00pm

re: #584 Rust Never Sleeps

I invite everybody on LGF who uses names like 'tribalism' to explain how Belgium (a country younger than the US) should be put 'back' 'together'.

Well, the Belgae were one of the many Gallic tribes known to the ancient Romans. But I don't see what that has to do with VB having WN and crypto-fascist tendencies.

Again, this is not about the situation in Belgium, per se, this is about allowing groups with racist elements to tag along with the counter-jihad movement. Not only is racism/WN/fascism wrong in and of itself, but it is also incompatible with Western society as we know it (e.g. it takes away personal freedoms). Additionally, the credibility of the entire movement will be damaged by these groups, and therefore, it is not worth it to include them.

While a sympathize with the situation in Belgium and in Europe in general, that is not the issue here.

591 Yank in the EU  Wed, Nov 7, 2007 4:31:20pm

re: #584 Rust Never Sleeps

I invite everybody on LGF who uses names like 'tribalism' to explain how Belgium (a country younger than the US) should be put 'back' 'together'.

Hope you aren't looking for someone peddling a simple formula or a solution that can be given quickly on a web discussion board. Everything relating to politics in Belgium is messy and complex, as it seems you are well aware.

One thing is clear, however: a basic condition for the success of whatever foundation people are putting together now to fix that, and to fight against the jihad, is that it must not include the element of white nationalism (sometimes people call it things like tribalism, nativism, racialism, etc.). Why? Well it's not difficult to see the answer from theoretical and moral reasoning. Practically and in view of urgency, because a large amount of people in Flanders and elsewhere (and I don't mean the brainless, PC left) will resolutely reject that. It's a superficial and merely visceral idea -- that in a spasm of panic and confusion ethnic Europeans groups will seek a racial commonality with their bretheren and re-unite against the foreign ethnicities as it once did in the 1930's and 1940's, when Flemish nationalism took root. The people need better, stronger, than that. Ideas they can be proud of and defend openly are needed, not a vision of an ethnically homogeneous Flanders. That's why I think the faction of the VB that wants to hold on to the Vlaams Blok, whose actions and words I distinctly remember, and to people like Staf DeClercq is selling people a spoiled, inadequate set of goods. Independence from Wallonia sounds like a good plan, but it's not issues like that that are troubling.

A lot of people in the VB today may be trying to move away from the ideology of the old VB -- it's very, very unclear and messy. Take for example the BJ's article last week supporting the BNP and certain racial ideas; hence we see now these ideas are not even foreign from those I used to term 'moderate'. Consider rationally the nasty, personally attacking response to LGF's raising truly excellent concerns that have to be on many people's minds regarding the VB -- I know they were on mine. Many, many times I desired for Belien, Colen and such to take a fully frank and clear stand on all the controversial issues that surround the VB. Yet they either only respond to the facile, strawman attacks by the left, or deny precisely what Dewinter proudly affirms about the VB's past, or in tricky, unstated ways demonstrate their acceptance of how the VB once was in the 1990's. I care a great deal and want to speak and help people, but I won't get behind a character like Filip Dewinter or sit down to build the future with him.

The party's 2004 banning makes openness and the democratic process, which would allow separating the wheat from the chaff, greatly strained. What an example of how terrible leftist totalitarianism can be! It's also very hard to build a decent classical liberal movement when the rest of the body politic are not just on the left but the Stalinist and Trotskyite left.

Sorry about the long post but there's a lot that must be said on all this.

592 BabbaZee  Wed, Nov 7, 2007 5:08:10pm

but I won't get behind a character like Filip Dewinter or sit down to build the future with him.

Amen Yank

for those who dont understand the import of the pic in the link

yes yes yes
socialists wrote it.

so?
Facts are facts even when socialists use them, glean the facts and ignore the rhetoric.

Realize that up until two weeks ago the ONLY people fighting these fascists were their political opposition on the communist /socialist left, so thats where the information has been compiled

Now they have to worry about us.

MOOOOHAHAHAHAAAAA

593 Former Belgian  Wed, Nov 7, 2007 8:11:55pm

re: #592 BabbaZee

Babbazee: I did some digging in Dutch-language websites on Paul Beliën and his wife Alexandra Colen MP, and learned some quite fascinating stuff. I know CJ won't post anything that may smell of personal dirt on somebody, but dirt is not the point. In fact, Beliën en Colen may well be the only decent people in all of the VB. This is LONG, so I'll post in a few parts.

PART 1

There is a very popular Flemish weekly named HUMO (kind-of like a cross between Rolling Stone and The Nation). I don't care at all for its politics, but that's not the point. In issue 3324 (May 18, 2004) they ran a tell-all interview with the father of Ms. Colen, one Alex Colen, in the first of a series on "former Flemish SS members".

[Link: www.humo.be...]

The full text is not available online, but I found bits and pieces all over the web, including some scans. Some of the money points for our purposes:
* Colen pere was indeed in the Waffen SS "Flemish Legion". He spent some post-war years in exile in Ireland, where Alexandra was born. I have a feeling he'd feel right at home with the old-style Vlaams Blok.
* Colen pere laments the fact that his daughter and son-in-law are not "true Flemish nationalists, but rather have become American-style conservatives"
* He implies that Colen daughter feels unwanted in the VB and does not really care for her job as a parliamentarian , but keeps doing it because it is the family's main source of income. He claims that Beliën writes all her speeches.
* He also states Beliën has "very many" contacts among conservative and Republican US politicians, and is the "matchmaker" for the VB's contacts with US mainstream right politicians.
* Colen fille is a fundamentalist Catholic, while her parents were avowed nudists. (Am I the only one to see an element of rebellion there, as well as on the political plane?)

All this made me wonder about how this couple --- whose thinking is clearly at odds with the old-style VB --- is getting on with the present-day VB. So I dug some more, and sure enough, I found stories about internal rivalry (see esp. Part II).

The following left-wing site

[Link: 64.233.167.104...]

details neo-fascist and neo-nazi connections of the current and past VB leadership. They describe Beliën somewhat hyperbolically as "the brain behind the VB" (probably news to the VB), and (tellingly) consider him almost more dangerous than the real and alleged nazi sympathisers because of his "extreme" ideas such as privatizing health insurance (and other things that are quite mainstream in the US).

(continued)

594 Former Belgian  Wed, Nov 7, 2007 8:20:23pm

PART II: VB, a house divided?

Dutch-language blogger Luc van Braekel, (www.lvb.net) who made his money
with one of the first ISPs in Belgium (ping.be), is himself a
liberal-democrat (read: "pro-market" whenever you see "liberal" in a
Belgian context) but is apparently a personal friend of Beliën en
Colen. In this entry

[Link: lvb.net...]

he discusses the (then recent) appointment of new members in the VB's
executive committee, and why Alexandra Colen (then an MP for more than
a decade) was blackballed for same. He discusses at some length
tensions within the party. It's a fascinating read with many links.
Some highlights:
* Dewinter called her a "Catholic bluenose" remark about her referred to a
private member bill she submitted that sought to prohibit nudity in
advertising (which she considered both immoral and sexist). Dewinter
feared the bill would turn the party into a laughingstock. [It is worth mentioning that, while Flemish nationalists of old generally wear their Catholicism very much on their sleeve, longtime party ideologue Roeland Raes (the one who got in hot water for Holocaust denial) and a few others like him self-identify as a "neo-pagan", like his French "nouvelle droite" mentor, who saw this as a way to reject Judeo-Xian morality (where have we heard that one before?)]
* Colen, for her part, sharply criticized Dewinter in two 1998
interviews (one in HUMO, the other in the Flemish daily Het Laatste
Nieuws) for being way too chummy with foreign neo-fascists, and even
referred to Dewinter as "a wannabe fascist dictator". She also said
that her favorite party in Holland was the VVD (liberal-democrat, the
party of Geert Wilders, Rita Verdonk, and Ayaan Hirsi Ali) rather than
the Blok's ideological allies there. As a result she was banned from
giving interviews or speaking to the press for what ended up being
five years. Eventually she and Dewinter got on speaking terms again.
More also here (in French): [Link: www.resistances.be...]
* VB ideologue Roeland Raes (the "neo-pagan", remember) sharply
criticized her in the press for her "pro-American" viewpoints.
[Link: www.lsp-mas.be...]
* leftist moral philosopher Jaap Kruithof, in a 1997 interview,
identified three main competing factions within the VB: an
old-fashioned radical Flemish nationalist one (with which he sees
little wrong [don't ask!]) around Gerolf Annemans, a "neo-fascist" one
around Dewinter, and a "neo-conservative" one around Colen. He then
thought a confrontation between Dewinter and the two others was
inevitable, since "these others aren't fascists".
* lvb comments that, since then, a fourth group has joined, namely
some entertainers, media types, and a former Miss Flanders which are
supposed to give a more "hip" image to the party, and many of whom
don't care much for the old shibboleths of the other three groups. One
of the "babes" even openly marched in a "gay pride" parade and despite
that was tolerated in the party executive committee. Paul Beliën
comments that these people are supposed to attract secular, libertine
youngsters that see their freedoms under threat by Muslim
fundamentalism. (Pim Fortuyn is not mentioned in this context.)
* even Annemans briefly got into hot water after he declared in 2006
that in principle he saw no problem with a practicing Muslim joining
the VB or even running on one of its slates. (Presumably he'd have to
accept the VB programme.)
* in the comments section, some VB types wonder what Colen is doing in
the VB in the first place, as do some people who actually like her

(continued)

595 Former Belgian  Wed, Nov 7, 2007 8:29:38pm

(continued from previous)

* The following article in Flanders' premier daily, De Standaard, discusses
much of the same subject matter:
[Link: www.standaard.be...]
It also amusingly mentions that one of the old party faithful (a woman
nicknamed "the black widow" as she was married to the late publisher
of wartime collaborationist newspaper "Volk en Staat") called up party
chairman Frank Vanhecke in the middle of the night to ask what this
"woman in the oldest profession" [Marie-Rose Morel, the former Miss
Flanders] was doing in the VB, let alone the party executive committee

* The website of Nova Civitas (liberal-democratic think tank)
[Link: 60gp.ovh.net...]
reproduces a 2005 interview with Paul Beliën in De Standaard. Among
other things, he argued there that the VB hasd lost touch with its base. He
also acknowledges "there are some people in the VB with really rank
views" (referring to a Holocaust denier). He is against outlawing Shoah
denial, BTW, stating "democracy must be strong enough to act as a corrective
in such situations".

By the by, he discusses his own career in the press, and his contacts
in the US. (He moonlighted for the Wall Street Journal while working for the Flemish daily Gazet van Antwerpen, who fired him for giving
the Wall Street Journal and giving them a 'scoop' on then-King Baldwin
I's "24-hour abdication" that let him avoid having to sign a law
legalizing 1st-trimester abortions.) Through the WSJ, he met
the US ambassador to the EU who introduced him to all
sorts of people with whom they became friends (as wife and children speak mother-tongue level English.) One of these friends later became a speechwriter for GWB.

My conclusions (for now) in next entry

596 Former Belgian  Wed, Nov 7, 2007 9:13:48pm

AARRRGGHH! Firefox just ate my post!

597 Former Belgian  Wed, Nov 7, 2007 10:22:37pm

ANALYSIS:

You could say the VB has gone through four stages.

(0) What came before it? Flemish nationalism (arising in reaction to an overbearing 19th century French-speaking elite with its slogan "la Belgique sera Latine ou elle ne sera pas"/"Belgium will be [of] Latin [culture] or it will not be/endure") has a long history, and historical establishment politicians from center-left to right have identified as Flemish nationalists. (For illustration, I note the "three crowing roosters", Camiel Huysmans of Labor, Frans van Cauwelaert of the Catholic Party, and the [apparently Jewish] Louis Franck of the Liberal Democrats). So to dismiss it wholesale as antidemocratic (as some far-left and Belgicist elements do) is a bit dishonest intellectually.
Undeniably, however, an important strain within the movement has a history of playing footsie with Germany in the hopes of thus realizing Flemish autonomy or outright independence --- (relatively innocent, if only relatively speaking) footsie with the Kaiser during WW I and (rather more sinister) footsie with Nazi Germany during WW II. Because of that, a lot of them ended up serving time (or worse) after WW II, while other went underground and some had actually joined the Resistance.
Some years after the war, the Christelijke Vlaamse Volksunie was formed, which later shortened its name to just Volksunie ("People's Union") as some non-Catholics joined. While its detractors pointed to the collaborationist past of many Volksunie politicians, by no means all were like that, and some ex-collabo's found homes in the establishment parties, and there were "kosher" Volksunie guys too. Its party programme was mostly single-issue: Flemish autonomy.
In 1977 or so, the Volksunie, as part of a near-"wall to wall" coalition government, was party to the Egmont Pact, which laid the ground work for Belgium's current federal structure. As this became a reality in recent years, the Volksunie gradually faded into oblivion (as a "victim of its own success"), eventually splitting up and the pieces merging with the establishment parties (Labor, Christian Democrat, and Liberal Democrat=pro-market).

* VB 1.0 (a merger of two smaller radical groups) arose immediately after the "treason"; of the Egmont Pact. Its party programme had two main points: outright independence for Flanders (not mere autonomy), and "amnesty" for Nazi collaborators. The party leadership consisted of one Lode Claes (now deceased) and the distasteful character of Karel Dillen (presently "honorary party chairman for life") whose shady past we discussed at length on LGF.
Even in Flanders, such a party would have remained a fringe phenomenon forever.

* VB 2.0, you could say, grew around a younger generation, particularly Gerolf Annemans and Filip Dewinter. On the one hand there's party ideologue Roeland Raes (an admirer of French "new Right" neo-pagan ideologue Maurice Bardeche, as well as a Shoah denier); on the other hand there is Dewinter, whose father and grandfather were apparently in the Resistance. (How he can then abide a character like Raes is a mystery to me. Then again, a joke has it that the difference between politicians and prostitutes is that there are things no self-respecting prostitute will lower herself to doing.)
VB 2.0 arose in the context of ever-greater friction between Muslim immigrants (Turkish and Moroccan almost to the last man in Belgium) and the "natives".
(High unemployment allowed them to play the "these guys are stealing your jobs" card as well. The immigrants had originally been imported during the economic boom of the 1960s, when Belgium had a net job SURPLUS and menial jobs went unfilled.)
Campaigning on a programme of "repatriation" of these immigrants, the party develops a truly significant following for the first time and concerned citizens are starting to take notice (some for the right, others for the wrong reasons).

(continued)

598 1389  Wed, Nov 7, 2007 10:32:53pm

re: #324 Salem

Are there crypto-nazis that need to be flushed out outside of Sweden and Belgium? Say America? Wouldn't that be a hoot!

Ummm, yeah.

Some neo-Nazis make de facto common cause with the Muslims, such as this one.

More about him here, with some shocking pix.

As if all that were not enough, this evil individual is currently touring the US and Canada!

599 Former Belgian  Wed, Nov 7, 2007 10:41:07pm

* VB 3.0 really took off post-9/11. All established parties avoid the "elephant in the room" for fear of being accused of "racism", "xenofobia", anti-Muslim bigotry, or whatever. Since VB already has such a reputation anyhow, they can afford to address the issue. Sensing a political "market vacuum" as no credible conservative party exists (the Christian Democrats, which combine social-democrat economic policies with a degree of social conservatism, are ravaged by scandals), VB 3.0 tries to reposition itself as a credible conservative party. (I sense the hand of Beliën and Colen in this.) From this era date things like outreach to the Jewish community of Antwerp (the VB's #1 stronghold) as well as the pro-Israel and pro-US statements that must have oldtimers near apoplexy. Needless to say, types like Raes don't play along.

* Eventually characters like Raes and other rancid elements give the Belgian judiciary enough ammo to have the party outlawed under the Law Against Racism. VB 3.0 is then disbanded, and immediately reformed as Vlaams Belang ("The Flemish Interest"), or VB 4.0. In a further attempt to broaden its electoral base, the party recruits a number of "BVs" (Bekende Vlamingen, i.e., Flemish celebrities having their 15 minutes of fame) that do not fit any of the stereotypical VB profiles. Traditional stances on issues like homosexuality are mollified (some VB propaganda literature actually claims that the VB has some "differently inclined" [=Dutch euphemism for homosexual] elected officials), while immigrants who have acculturated and are law-abiding are no longer considered deportation fodder.
At the same time, the party continues to champion Flemish ethnic nationalism (as distinct from cultural or state nationalism), and the absence of any attempt to purge or even marginalize neo-fascist elements within the party makes one wonder whether the "change of heart" is sincere or merely a matter of tactical expedience.
This is not a trivial matter, as --- quite unlike right-wing fringe groups in England or Sweden, say --- VB 4.0 has a serious shot at becoming the #1 party in Flanders.

Finally, where does Paul Beliën fit in all this? My best guess is that each is trying to use the other for its own ends. The VB needs respectability, and contacts with neo-fascist whackjobs abroad isn't the way to acquire it. Beliën is the VB "access pass" to respectible conservative politicians abroad.
Conversely, Beliën needs a political vehicle for his own ideas, which basically amount to a combination of American conservatism with Flemish separatism. He loudly professes to abominate fascism and antisemitism, and I see no evidence that he is anything other than sincere about this. My guess is that he hopes that he and the Mrs. can gradually coax the VB away from its rancid baggage and towards mainstream conservatism --- and thus make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Personally, however, I do not think one can turn something fundamentally rotten into something basically decent. "The more I see, the less I believe..."

600 Dead Sea Squirrel  Wed, Nov 7, 2007 11:31:52pm

Former Belgian, I appreciate what you're doing, and I'm sure others do too. That's a lot of work, and you seem like a very fair commentator.

Your stuff supports the conclusion I came to pretty early on in this debate: VB may be moving in the right direction, but there are too many things that indicate it's mostly window dressing, and that they don't really want to completely alienate their old neo-fascist supporters.

601 BabbaZee  Thu, Nov 8, 2007 3:14:58am

re: #593 Former Belgian

How he can then abide a character like Raes is a mystery to me.

I have my opinions on how people manage it...

and THANK YOU once again

602 Shelbourne  Thu, Nov 8, 2007 4:01:25am

Great stuff, Former Belgian.

I would be very interested in your take on the current situation then.
For those that are not informed, and only from my point of view:
- In the last Belgium elections, the traditional Flemish parties lost a lot of ground to the right (Leterme and VB), which caused a tougher approach in the negotiations than in the past on several issues;
- The main issue is that the Walloons seek a redistribution of votes in the Brussels area, effectively creating a corridor to this economical viable city, to which the people from Flanders are opposed.
- They have been negotiating now for over 150 days, and basically will have to start all over again.

Now... what do you think... will the VB profit from this situation or will their supporters turn to Leterme ?

603 Former Belgian  Thu, Nov 8, 2007 4:47:29am

re: #602 Shelbourne

Great stuff, Former Belgian.

I would be very interested in your take on the current situation then.
For those that are not informed, and only from my point of view:
- In the last Belgium elections, the traditional Flemish parties lost a lot of ground to the right (Leterme and VB), which caused a tougher approach in the negotiations than in the past on several issues;
- The main issue is that the Walloons seek a redistribution of votes in the Brussels area, effectively creating a corridor to this economical viable city, to which the people from Flanders are opposed.
- They have been negotiating now for over 150 days, and basically will have to start all over again.

Now... what do you think... will the VB profit from this situation or will their supporters turn to Leterme ?

Good question. Note that Leterme's Christian Democrat party (heir to one of Belgium's two original political parties) is only debatably right-wing. Sure, it's somewhat morally conservative, and has become more Flemish nationalist (having absorbed part of the defunct Volksunie), but socio-economically it's basically social-democrat (left-wing by US standards), and for sure isn't waving the "our own kind first!" banner.

I have a feeling Leterme is trying to steal away some of the more moderate VB support. My "ears" in Belgium tell me that, likewise, some of the Flemish liberal-democrats (say, Patrick Dewael) have in recent years started making noises about the "immigrants are OK, but only if they adapt themselves" and about getting tougher on street crime. My older brother commented sarcastically "why would people vote for the imitation if they can have the original?". Maybe some of the people that only voted VB out of protest against the establishment parties ignoring "the elephant in the room" will drift back toward the CD&V and the VLD.

604 Shelbourne  Thu, Nov 8, 2007 5:30:05am

re: #603 Former Belgian

re: #602 Shelbourne



Good question. Note that Leterme's Christian Democrat party (heir to one of Belgium's two original political parties) is only debatably right-wing. Sure, it's somewhat morally conservative, and has become more Flemish nationalist (having absorbed part of the defunct Volksunie), but socio-economically it's basically social-democrat (left-wing by US standards), and for sure isn't waving the "our own kind first!" banner.

I have a feeling Leterme is trying to steal away some of the more moderate VB support. My "ears" in Belgium tell me that, likewise, some of the Flemish liberal-democrats (say, Patrick Dewael) have in recent years started making noises about the "immigrants are OK, but only if they adapt themselves" and about getting tougher on street crime. My older brother commented sarcastically "why would people vote for the imitation if they can have the original?". Maybe some of the people that only voted VB out of protest against the establishment parties ignoring "the elephant in the room" will drift back toward the CD&V and the VLD.

I think my sources are a bit biased, cause they mainly see more growth for the VB at the moment.

But I think it is going to be interesting times for Belgium (or should I say Flanders and Wallonia).

605 Yank in the EU  Thu, Nov 8, 2007 5:43:33am

re: #597 Former Belgian

Thanks for all your work, Former Belgian, Firefox and all.


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