Yikes!

Islam is Islam.

"But the teddy bears! What do we do about the heathen teddy bears?!"

24% of the audience are now scheduled to be beheaded.

re: #3 Diamond Bullet

"But the teddy bears! What do we do about the heathen teddy bears?!"

Behead them all!

townhouse meeting?

/I think you mean town hall meeting

Are you sure we aren't confusing Muslims and Islam...this conversation sounds like those distinctly shifty Mennonites and their apostate rules...

/ Super Sarc. (Roll those bones English...)

"Al-Sweidan: What you are saying is: You have the right to become an apostate, but I will kill you.
Audience member: That’s right. I won’t tell him not to.
Al-Sweidan: What can be worse than being killed?
Audience member: That’s why he will not become an apostate".

Logic is as logic does.

The lady looks like a future splodeydope.

/and she's ugly

The logic is air-tight!

By the way, anybody think there's something fishy going on with the Iran Nuclear program issue in the National Intelligence Estimate?

And of course, isn't it something to see all those people who, a day ago, wouldn't believe for a second anything coming out of US Intel, suddenly embracing the NIE as holy writ?

re: #6 Killian Bundy

townhouse meeting?

/I think you mean town hall meeting

Toll House cookies. Mmmm...

re: #5 storagemanager

re: #3 Diamond Bullet

"But the teddy bears! What do we do about the heathen teddy bears?!"

Behead them all!

Audience member: Sir, if you own a teddy bear, your punishment is death. There is a great problem that most of us, 70% of us, own teddy bears because they were given to us by our fathers and mothers. Before a person gets a teddy bear, he has the liberty to choose, but remember that if you want to own a teddy bear, you will be punished by death. So you have the liberty to choose, but on the condition...

Al-Sweidan: That’s not liberty.

Audience member: It has conditions...

Al-Sweidan: What you are saying is: You have the right to own a teddy bear, but I will kill you.

Audience member: That’s right. I won’t tell him not to.

Al-Sweidan: What can be worse than being killed?

Audience member: That’s why he will not own a teddy bear.

the audience member wasn't going to suggest that they not convert because they want to kill apostates!

Al-Sweidan: What you are saying is: You have the right to become an apostate, but I will kill you.

Audience member: That’s right. I won’t tell him not to.

Al-Sweidan: What can be worse than being killed?

Audience member: That’s why he will not become an apostate.

There is a sick logic to it.

"Al-Sweidan: What you are saying is: You have the right to become an apostate, but I will kill you.

Audience member: That’s right. I won’t tell him not to.

Al-Sweidan: What can be worse than being killed?
Audience member: That’s why he will not become an apostate.
"

makes logical sense...doesn't it ?

at least in Bizarro World

Would be funny, if it wasn't so serious.

There is no religion but Wheel of Fortune .. and his prophet is Pat Sajak

sigh, and for a second I thought they were debating possible changes to Islam, like maybe only seething 23 hours a day or giving up the whole "behead everyone" angle.

oh well.

Good looking and smart!
/

Lovely people. Looks like "no compulsion in religion" only works in one direction for them.

The peace in Islam...comes with death.

Text message your punishment? It's the Saudi version of American Idol.

If you sink than you must be a witch !

made sense in the 1600's so it must make sense now.

simple logic applied to modern times

I kept waiting for the You Tube question from the giant Teddy Bear wearing a turban with a hidden bomb in it.

What can be worse than being killed?

"Live free or die; death is not the worst of evils"
-General John Stark

There is no compulsion in Islam!

Sir, if you become an apostate, your punishment is death.

Oh.

Is this the true meaning of life?

Teddybears of Blasphemy .. followed by Opium Patch Dolls ...

and of course .. Barbie .. comes in a sack .. in all shades of black.

Ken is additional expense but must not be seen near her or his head will mysteriously fall off.

re: #25 Killer Tomato

What can be worse than being killed?

"Live free or die; death is not the worst of evils"
-General John Stark

"Give me liberty, or give me death"
- Patrick Henry

re: #22 loppyd

Text message your punishment? It's the Saudi version of American Idol.

You REALLY dont want to get eliminated in this competition.

no prizes for second place.

re: #10 chinacoalwatcher

The logic is air-tight!

By the way, anybody think there's something fishy going on with the Iran Nuclear program issue in the National Intelligence Estimate?

And of course, isn't it something to see all those people who, a day ago, wouldn't believe for a second anything coming out of US Intel, suddenly embracing the NIE as holy writ?

There is really nothing there in the NIE. They decided that the proposition that Iran is developing nukes is "plausible but unlikely." That way no matter which way it turns out they can say,"See, I told you so!"

Around here 'Top Shelf' is to have 'Troll House Cookies' with your Fruitcup™.

They live for death.

What can be worse than being killed?

Being the bully boy doing the killing .. house rules.

When are the MI and Mo dolls coming out for Ramadan ?

or be MO and collect all 72 virgins and be a true believer

Picture 2 Mormon missionaries coming down the street. They are invited into your house and ask: What do you know about the Mormons? Would you like to know more? No?

Bam! Bam! Bam!

Then asking the survivors: How about now? Can we arrange your baptism?

That is what Islam is bringing our way.

What this makes pretty clear to me is that radical Islam and rank-and-file Islam are indistinguishable. Islam hasn't been hijacked; it is, in fact, a bloodthirsty death cult and is therefore not worthy to be called a legitimate religion.

Maybe this is why we rarely, if ever, hear from "moderate" Muslims ...either there aren't that many, or the minority of moderates are so cowed by the radicals that they are afraid to speak. With attitudes on display here, I can't blame them.

re: #6 Killian Bundy

townhouse meeting?

/I think you mean town hall meeting

i was thinking "outhouse meeting" because they're obviously full of something...

ROPMA!

Is this the Islamic Oprah show?

Glad they straightened that out for me...I was going to name my band the Apostates. I wanted my gigs to be the bomb.

Reform will be difficult in Islam, because Muslims have had the Qu'ran hammered into their heads since childhood. There is no hope.

There is no compulsion in Islam. If you leave, they don't try to force you to rejoin, they just kill you! And this from Kuwaiti TV, supposedly one of our "allies"...

These guys sure live killing...as long as anybody but them is getting killed.
When they only have other Muslims around, then they have to find excuses to kill them.
This is always a good excuse.
Freethinking liberals forget that, under Islam, freethinking is the first thing to go.

re: #14 Ringo the Gringo

Al-Sweidan: What you are saying is: You have the right to become an apostate, but I will kill you.Audience member: That’s right. I won’t tell him not to.

Al-Sweidan: What can be worse than being killed?

Audience member: That’s why he will not become an apostate.

There is a sick logic to it.

I watched a documentary on the MS-13 gangs. Apparently the gangbangers operate like this too!

The only sane among them is being ostracised.
These people are rapidly advancing forward into the past.

re: #21 storagemanager

The peace in Islam...comes with death.

This is the basic problem. They've got their eye on paradise and so are willing to trash this life for themselves and everyone else.

There is one wise old man in a sea of fanatic animals ...

re: #22 loppyd

Text message your punishment? It's the Saudi version of American Idol.

And didn't Israelis invent IM'ing? The travesty of it!

There's nothing like having one's head lobbed off with a rusty machete in the morning...that is if you don't convert to the religion of peace.

Terroristic at its core:

"Sure, there is no compulsion in religion. Yes, if you convert, we will kill you. But, no pressure."

Al-Sweidan: What you are saying is: You have the right to become an apostate, but I will kill you.

Audience member: That’s right. I won’t tell him not to.

Believe what I think you should believe, or I get to kill you. I guess allah doesn't care whether his believers are held to the faith under the threat of being murdered. On the other hand, given the "charms" of islam, I can understand why you'd need a rule like that.

Savages.

Maybe this wouldn't be so bad, if being a non-believer didn't imply second class citizenship. So the choice is:

a. Be a Muslim
b. Be a second-class citizen (dhimmi) beholden to Muslims, or
c. Leave Islam and die.

Clearly, a religion of peace.

re: #30 ubercheesehead

re: #10 chinacoalwatcher

The logic is air-tight!

By the way, anybody think there's something fishy going on with the Iran Nuclear program issue in the National Intelligence Estimate?

And of course, isn't it something to see all those people who, a day ago, wouldn't believe for a second anything coming out of US Intel, suddenly embracing the NIE as holy writ?

There is really nothing there in the NIE. They decided that the proposition that Iran is developing nukes is "plausible but unlikely." That way no matter which way it turns out they can say,"See, I told you so!"

All this from the folks who didn't have a clue that the wall was coming down.

The only semi-sane person there was the last "scholar" who vehemently defended a person's right to his own conscience and freedom of thought. One can only hope he made it out of there in one piece.

iSlam is violent/deadly/and abusive as this behavior is required in the koran The Book of Hate.

If basic human rights, ones that AI, EU, etc. so strongly insist upon, were applied to moslems, iSlam would collapse.

Basic human rights such as:
The right to leave a religion and NOT be killed.
The right of moslem women to freely marry men of other faiths, just as moslem men can do.
The right of women NOT to be beaten and emotionally abused.

OT: At least in UK now, hospital beds for Muslims are turned to Mecca, text link here.

foat guckers

re: #47 LSD

There is one wise old man in a sea of fanatic animals ...

...who'd better watch his back from now on. Those 'young people' would gladly separate his head from his shoulders for advocating 'freedom of thought' (the horror!).

Before a person converts to Islam, he has the liberty to choose, but remember that if you want to convert from Islam, you will be punished by death.

Sounds like a scene right out of some horror movie: A pretty face at the front door, inviting you to come in, telling you how wonderful it is inside, but then once you go in, you find out it's really hell, head for the door, and then find a team of ghouls standing by the door.

re: #23 earth56

If you sink than you must be a witch !

made sense in the 1600's so it must make sense now.

simple logic applied to modern times

I thought it was that if you float, then you were made of wood and thus you were a witch (since you could make bridges out of stones).

Those who drowned were innocent.

I knew this all sounded vaguely familiar:

Yossarian: Is Orr crazy?
Dr. 'Doc' Daneeka: Of course he is. He has to be crazy to keep flying after all his close calls he's had.
Yossarian: Why can't you ground him?
Dr. 'Doc' Daneeka: I can, but first he has to ask me.
Yossarian: That's all he's gotta do to be grounded?
Dr. 'Doc' Daneeka: That's all.
Yossarian: Then you can ground him?
Dr. 'Doc' Daneeka: No. Then I cannot ground him.
Yossarian: Aah!
Dr. 'Doc' Daneeka: There's a CATCH?
Yossarian: A catch?
Dr. 'Doc' Daneeka: Sure. Catch-22. Anyone who wants to get out of combat isn't really crazy, so I can't ground him.
Yossarian: Ok, let me see if I've got this straight. In order to be grounded, I've got to be crazy. And I must be crazy to keep flying. But if I ask to be grounded, that means I'm not crazy anymore, and I have to keep flying.
Dr. 'Doc' Daneeka: You got it, that's Catch-22.
Yossarian: Whoo... That's some catch, that Catch-22.
Dr. 'Doc' Daneeka: It's the best there is.

--Joseph Heller- Catch 22

Behead infidels with sharp knives instead of dull ones...

Islamic televangelists preach 'Islam Lite'

1300 years of bigotry and hate .. and still counting.. be us or die.. death cult watch where are you?

There is a precedent for saying these things (killing apostates).

See what this person has to say in response:

[Link: www.geertwilders.nl...]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

~Norsk Troll

re: #38 ploome hineni

re: #36 MacDuff

What this makes pretty clear to me is that radical Islam and rank-and-file Islam are indistinguishable. Islam hasn't been hijacked; it is, in fact, a bloodthirsty death cult and is therefore not worthy to be called a legitimate religion.

Maybe this is why we rarely, if ever, hear from "moderate" Muslims ...either there aren't that many, or the minority of moderates are so cowed by the radicals that they are afraid to speak. With attitudes on display here, I can't blame them.

conflict and violence often comes with change

.when women got the vote
.when unions wereformed
.to get the magan carta

etc..

Point well taken, but revolution, reform or any other type of change requires an appreciable number of people who want it. If not, you're you become just another severed head in a nation where that's the norm. By and large, these people seem to be pretty satisfied with the status quo and even favor an entire world governed by Sharia laws. Even when they leave these countries, they bring the musty old Muslim form of thinking with them, complete with FGM, honor killing and everything else that goes with it.

My point is that, it seems, there are just far too few people in Islam that want to change and therefore that change may be a long time coming, if it ever does come at all.

I love what we are going to have to deal with. Lets just remember freedom is overrated. You will do what we tell you and if you don't we will kill you. I would love to meet that kid in the street and ask him to try and do what he thinks is right. Bring it on.

Muslim logic.

Intriguing. Lots of religions have a certain dogmatic certainty-- many Christian sects believe that nobody but they will go to heaven. Jewish law says that one who is born a Jew remains one. Fortunately, both Judaism and Christianity, as a practical matter, respect freedom of conscience.

In this case, I was at least pleased to see one scholar arguing for freedom of conscience. I was somewhat saddened, however, to note that he was the oldest guy in the room; the young folks seemed solidly in favor of fanaticism.

Pity.

If a religion (or country) needs to threaten force or intimidate in order to keep people from LEAVING, rest assured that it's screwing its followers (or citizens) without the use of lubricant.

I'd also like to point out that the United States and Israel build walls and fences to keep people OUT, which is the exact opposite of oppression. It's protection, which should be government's only function anyway.

I was impressed by the Moderator...He said (in effect, not quoting) -- "So what if Rushdie is an Infidel? How does that adversely affect me? And Good riddance." I don't think the religious purists had an answer. Also impressed by the scholar who asserted the primacy of one's conscience, and that religion cannot/should not force people to believe dictate X. (I also think that 24 percent in the camp of the dissenters is an encouraging number.)

I'm surprisingly encouraged by this. Other than the kill-the-apostates-out-of-hand comment, they're having a civil, respectful discussion about a serious issue without resorting to yelling at each other or threats or anything. Even the host is playing Devil's Advocate. Maybe if they continue to have these discussions, things will start to turn. However, the wahabbi indoctrination has taken hold with a vast majority of the youth, that doesn't look good for the near-medium future. Only time will tell if that trend will reverse.

At least they are not in complete lockstep! They have an impassioned scholar on the panel with a VERY libertarian viewpoint. We need more of his attitude in the Middle East!

The older man, Gamal, is a brave and admirable guy. He was really trying to show the insanity of the rigid imam's ideology and his rejection of personal conscience and freedom of belief. The host seemed to be trying to do the same, but was more fearful of alienating his audience.

These are some very sad and deluded people. Their educational system is teaching them the worst form of intolerance and hatred. They all (but for Gamal) talk of killing other humans in an offhand way like they are discussing what sort of salad dressing to have tonight. Our lefty Western populace just can't get their minds around how evil and dangerous this Islamist movement actually is.

re: #70 JeffWeimer

I'm surprisingly encouraged by this. Other than the kill-the-apostates-out-of-hand comment, they're having a civil, respectful discussion about a serious issue without resorting to yelling at each other or threats or anything. Even the host is playing Devil's Advocate. Maybe if they continue to have these discussions, things will start to turn. However, the wahabbi indoctrination has taken hold with a vast majority of the youth, that doesn't look good for the near-medium future. Only time will tell if that trend will reverse.

At least they are not in complete lockstep! They have an impassioned scholar on the panel with a VERY libertarian viewpoint. We need more of his attitude in the Middle East!

I had the exact reaction. I watched the whole video and found a surprising optimism from it. It seems as if a dialog is occurring within Islam, which is a very good thing. I was very discouraged however that the youth in the audience appeared to be siding with the strictest interpretations of Islam, and the elderly gentlemen was the most tolerant and rational. This bodes ill for the future.

Let's open up a dialogue with these people right away. Let's just have that nice bespectacled lady who wants to kill all apostates in for some tea and some rational conversation. She seems like a really, really reasonable person. And the good news? Apparently, nearly 80% of her fellow Muslims are just as reasonable as she is. Yup, this collision of Western values and Islamic beliefs is gonna go just dandy. You know, so long as we have lots of dialogue with the reasonable folks.

re: #70 JeffWeimer

I'm surprisingly encouraged by this. Other than the kill-the-apostates-out-of-hand comment, they're having a civil, respectful discussion about a serious issue without resorting to yelling at each other or threats or anything. Even the host is playing Devil's Advocate.

I saw this as the Socratic approach. He fully greed - he just wanted the answers to come from his pupils. Perhaps I am too cynical.

re: #36 MacDuff

You have said it sir. The real "radicals" and "extremists" are the ones who do not have this bloodlust.

ot

British hospital turns Muslims' beds to face Mecca

[Link: www.breitbart.com...]

don't be caught in one of those beds if they find out you're an infidel

re: #71 pcalver

... They all (but for Gamal) talk of killing other humans in an offhand way like they are discussing what sort of salad dressing to have tonight. Our lefty Western populace just can't get their minds around how evil and dangerous this Islamist movement actually is.

They laugh when they talk about killing.

Al-Sweidan: What can be worse than being killed?

Audience member: That’s why he will not become an apostate.

What can be worse than being killed? Being a Muslim is worse.

I'd rather die with dignity than live for a lie.

ο θεον δω- ρεις μοι δυναμα.

re: #72 onepistoffyid

re: #70 JeffWeimer

I'm surprisingly encouraged by this. Other than the kill-the-apostates-out-of-hand comment, they're having a civil, respectful discussion about a serious issue without resorting to yelling at each other or threats or anything. Even the host is playing Devil's Advocate. Maybe if they continue to have these discussions, things will start to turn. However, the wahabbi indoctrination has taken hold with a vast majority of the youth, that doesn't look good for the near-medium future. Only time will tell if that trend will reverse.

At least they are not in complete lockstep! They have an impassioned scholar on the panel with a VERY libertarian viewpoint. We need more of his attitude in the Middle East!

I had the exact reaction. I watched the whole video and found a surprising optimism from it. It seems as if a dialog is occurring within Islam, which is a very good thing. I was very discouraged however that the youth in the audience appeared to be siding with the strictest interpretations of Islam, and the elderly gentlemen was the most tolerant and rational. This bodes ill for the future.

The main trouble I would see is that our govt, etc. keep saying it's a "tiny minority" who believe this killing stuff. But really, in this group of people in our friend Kuwait (didn't we help get Iraq out of there?), it's a tiny minority of 74%?

So the only reason for people to stay as muslims is because the other option is death. In all honesty, I think I would choose death

In the immortal words of Patrick Henry

"Give me liberty, or give me death"

Yo Dr. Gamal -

WATCH YOUR BACK MY FRIEND!

-S-

re: #81 Sunlight

You make a very good and sobering point...I see it alot like Nazi Germany...there were many good Germans that did not agree with Hitler's murderous ideology; unfortunately most didn't act out of fear and their existence did not come close to stopping a massive bloodletting...history repeats itself.

When you are a Muslim, Allah takes half your brain and transforms it into shit.

I'm surprisingly encouraged by this. Other than the kill-the-apostates-out-of-hand comment...

Discussion of killing non-believers cannot be tossed away as an aside in an otherwise rational conversation. As long as "to kill or not to kill" those who aren't Islamic is entertained as a valid point of debate, there can be no useful conversation about Islam in the modern world. 80% of the people at that discussion want all non-believers killed. What else is there to discuss with those people? You want me dead? OK, conversation's over. Period.

Can we put that lady next to the Jewish Kosbian who thought Ahmadinejad was like a huggy beadier-eyed Kermit?

To Muslims and Arabs across the globe:

Reject hate, embrace love. Bring out the best in Islam by showing your compassion, gratitude and forgiveness. Make the holy land truly holy by giving Israel and the Jewish people the respect they deserve in their tiny little country. This is not a crisis over land. It is a crisis of the soul; a crisis in our faith, judgement and self confidence. Israel should not be regarded as an enemy, but as a blessing to our neighborhood. We need not fear peace, but embrace it.

[Link: www.arabsforisrael.com...]

Let's be careful with charges of their "logic" being messed up. Logic is only a methodology, not an end in and of itself. Depending on your starting and operating assumptions, logic can take you anywhere. When we say that a position isn't "logical" or "reasonable," all we are doing is being lazy. We need to recognize the fundamental, underlying assumptions that allow the logic to operate in the fashion we witness in this video.

To that end, this IS Islam. This is what it means to be a follower of Islam - death to those who leave Islam. Islam is, in fact, a true evil (not nearly as deadly as atheism has been, true, but the most violent world religion I can think of). With those who wish to kill us, we fight. With all others, we should, and need, to reach out in love.

the sinner,

Charles

re: #89 zygazint

You just made me a little less pist off...thanks.

Al-Sweidan, islam's answer to Werner Erhardt.

re: #85 pat

When you are a Muslim, Allah takes half your brain and transforms it into shit.

And then throws away the other half!

re: #5 storagemanager

re: #3 Diamond Bullet

"But the teddy bears! What do we do about the heathen teddy bears?!"

Behead them all!

Be careful with that. The Care Bears will have a seethfest, maul people and start riots in the cities all over the world.

This is what happens when a religion is based solely on a text that is held to be sacrosanct. Both the Christian and Hebrew Bibles have been extensively analyzed--authorship, age, form, etc, and those passages which are troublesome by today’s standards are generally glossed over. But it is haraam to question or criticize the Qur’an, regardless of how outrageous or obscure a passage may be. Calvin’s “three-legged stool” upon which the Faith rests: Scripture, Tradition, and Reason, is unthinkable to Islam. Until that religion permits it’s followers to examine the basis of their faith, there will be very few “moderate”, let alone apostate, Muslims.

re: #86 Laugh a Lot

No, no, no. It's not "non-believers" they want "dead" -- it's people who want to leave Islam. Are ya a Muslim, eh? If you're not a Muslim -- it's a "so what?" -- the problem here is -- "are you a Muslim and you say you want to convert to another religion?!" -- then, there's a problem...as in "once a Muslim, always a Muslim"...that's what this debate is about...(have to recognize the distinction between someone who's not Muslim vs apostasy).

This will not end well.

re: #91 onepistoffyid

:)

Ah.

Now it all makes sense.

You will kill him to save him from himself.

Freaking Medieval barbarians. My apologies to Conan.

re: #47 LSD

There is one wise old man in a sea of fanatic animals ...

They probably beheaded him right after the show. No, I don't think it had anything to do with ratings.

Okay, so the 'tiny minority' of Muslims that are 'hijacking this religion of peace' are 76% of the population.

76% of 1.5 billion is 1.14 Billion (with a B) people.

We are in very, very, very deep doo-doo.

Is this a scene out of a Star Trek episode
waiting for Captain Kirk to intervene?

Oh, I forgot, the Prime Directive.

"...his head should be removed so as not to contaminate the heads of others."

Ahhh, I finally understand Islam.

re: #96 J.S.

re: #86 Laugh a Lot

No, no, no. It's not "non-believers" they want "dead" -- it's people who want to leave Islam. Are ya a Muslim, eh? If you're not a Muslim -- it's a "so what?" -- the problem here is -- "are you a Muslim and you say you want to convert to another religion?!" -- then, there's a problem...as in "once a Muslim, always a Muslim"...that's what this debate is about...(have to recognize the distinction between someone who's not Muslim vs apostasy).

I think that Muslims should change their religion. I think it is an illogical death-cult. Hence, the problem.

Al-Sweidan: What can be worse than being killed?

Worshiping moloch.
Eternal damnation.
Regression instead of progress.
Misoginy.
Cult of the one book that few can either read or understand.
Idol worship.

"Al-Sweidan: What you are saying is: You have the right to become an apostate, but I will kill you.

Audience member: That’s right. I won’t tell him not to.

Al-Sweidan: What can be worse than being killed?

Audience member: That’s why he will not become an apostate."
---

I'm having a flashback to the 60's:

Here you have the Islamic version of "Keep the faith, baby!"

But there's a nasty subtext of "... or I'll lop off your head" that I don't think was implied back when that was a catchphrase...

The next thing I remember
I was running for the door
I had to find my way back
To the place I was before

"Relax" said the doorman,
"We are programmed to receive.
"You can check out any time you like,
"BUT YOU CAN NEVER LEAVE."

Awww, just realized buzzsawmonkey beat me to it with the "Hotel California" reference.

re: #77 ploome hineni
Gee, P, if you were this nice to the Catholics? Or are you just saying that it's better to live on your knees than die on your feet?

And our government wants the Israelis to negotiate with people that think like this. What a joke.

re: #113 ploome hineni

[Link: www.youtube.com...]

best American Band

They make pretty good music, too bad they're kinda moonbattish. But then Ted Nugent and Stuck Mojo are probably about the only non-moonbat rockers out there.

I love Heart too ... been listening to/watching their stuff over and over again on YouTube lately. There's a couple of fantastic posts of live concerts from 1977, one of Barracudaand the other of Crazy on You. Good Lord Ann was almost cuter than Nancy back in the day.

A reasonable person would wonder just what value a religion has if it must use the threat of death to keep members from leaving.

Of course, reasonable people were in short supply in that meeting.

The difference between the mature scholar who spoke for freedom of conscience and the younger people who called for the death of anyone who left Islam is Wahabbism. That's the force that's driving Islamic terrorism, and changing the very nature of the Muslim world.

Islam has had a slightly uneasy coexistence with the rest of the world for the past few hundred years. But Wahabbism is rapidly making that impossible.

This is far, far worse than what Hitler's views did to latent Germanic nationalism.

And there weren't 1.4 billion Germans in the world, either.

what happens to the muslim population if everyone decided they want to quit it for good?

who is the last person-- to be beheaded and what happens to him--- in other words who does the job of taking care of the last guy? heee

can they decide not to behead people if they all leave?

Christianity has disciples of Jesus
And Islam has prisoners of Allah?

How about Hostages of Allah?

Go to YouTube and listen to the music videos by the soft-voiced "SincereMuslimah." They'll chill your blood. To her Muslims are just the most gentle, kind, caring, loving, pure-hearted, humble, self-effacing, generous folks in the world. Check the comments with all her fans raving about her songs and lyrics and telling anyone who dares to voice a contrary opinion to shut up or worse, then claiming Islam "restrains" them from taking more drastic action.

re: #116 Ceemack

A reasonable person would wonder just what value a religion has if it must use the threat of death to keep members from leaving.

Of course, reasonable people were in short supply in that meeting.

The difference between the mature scholar who spoke for freedom of conscience and the younger people who called for the death of anyone who left Islam is Wahabbism. That's the force that's driving Islamic terrorism, and changing the very nature of the Muslim world.

Islam has had a slightly uneasy coexistence with the rest of the world for the past few hundred years. But Wahabbism is rapidly making that impossible.

This is far, far worse than what Hitler's views did to latent Germanic nationalism.

And there weren't 1.4 billion Germans in the world, either.

re: #119 Tigger2005

see tiger this is my point in a round about way...if all decide to wake up one day and figure this out as a ridicoulous religion and want to all leave it behind as to see the folly to their affairs here, how can everyone get beheaded?

re: #90 Charles the Hammer

Al-Sweidan: What can be worse than being killed?

Audience member: That’s why he will not become an apostate

.
obviously the conclusion from the audience member's statement is that islam is a religion of terror. you see that as reasonable?

Silly people. Don't you know that those who don't value life don't have valuable lives? Think about it in the few seconds you'll have left after you launch your very first nuke.

Damn it! Those Flip4Mac videos just won't play! I installed Flip4Mac and rebooted Firefox. Made sure it was the correct configuration for that file type in Preferences, and it STILL WON'T PLAY! ! ! ! Here's the error message I get:

Cannot play back the file. The file format is invalid.

Anybody else...?

re: #10 chinacoalwatcher
limbaugh was all over it

OT

Browsing Firefox add-ons for solution to my #123. Saw upgrade notes for something else that read:

fix whitelist wasn't working properly
add CTRL+SHIT+M shortcut for side bar
update localization

Sounds like a fatal flaw to me. I can't even find my SHIT key!

re: #77 ploome hineni
Wow, good thing that keeping one's mouth shut will protect you. Guess it's ok to allow these savages to overrun us.
Glad tis sort of attitude wasn't present in the past. wouldn't need a Masada. The IDF could swear allegiance on Mt. Cop Out.

re: #123 LeePro

Damn it! Those Flip4Mac videos just won't play! I installed Flip4Mac and rebooted Firefox. Made sure it was the correct configuration for that file type in Preferences, and it STILL WON'T PLAY! ! ! ! Here's the error message I get:

Cannot play back the file. The file format is invalid.

Anybody else...?

Maybe you should dump that boutique OS for Windows. [Heh. I've been waiting for a chance to say that!] ;^]

re: #127 stevieray

Sorry, pal. It has nothing to do with the Mac. Other pages here, as well as other sites are working just fine.

I just watched the video. Yeah that kid was pretty messed up. But on the whole I found the video to be optimistic. 25% said they should be free to make a choice. The old man, Gamal?, made very logical points in direct defiance iman. Yeah it is still scary but there does seem to be some hope. For some reason I thought they were not even this far. Probably because the only other Arab TV I have watched with Hamas Micky.

Mohammed the Bear

re: #3 Diamond Bullet

"But the teddy bears! What do we do about the heathen teddy bears?!"

I just got back from meeting with a Muslim about the teddy bears, since I was confused about why images of animals (regardless of name) were being allowed in Muslim homes since Muhammad had a fit about them, and my friend explained it depends on the purpose of the animals--if it's just a picture, statue, etc, not allowed, but if it's a toy, then it's allowed because it has use in teaching children. That makes sense, helped me understand it anyway.

Good Lord...that was obscene.

re: #71 pcalver

The older man, Gamal, is a brave and admirable guy. He was really trying to show the insanity of the rigid imam's ideology and his rejection of personal conscience and freedom of belief. The host seemed to be trying to do the same, but was more fearful of alienating his audience.

These are some very sad and deluded people. Their educational system is teaching them the worst form of intolerance and hatred. They all (but for Gamal) talk of killing other humans in an offhand way like they are discussing what sort of salad dressing to have tonight. Our lefty Western populace just can't get their minds around how evil and dangerous this Islamist movement actually is.

Problem is Gamal was contradicting the Quran (not to mention the Hadith) and the others were consistent with the Quran. So Gamal is the bad Muslim here, the hypocrite.

Would it be untoward to remind the Kuwaitis of one of the points in an address that Pope Benedict gave:

“Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. ... The decisive statement in this argument against violent conversion is this: not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God’s nature.”

Did anyone notice the ongoing count on the right side of the screen keeping you up to date on the text poll? The middle option(death) kept moving up. These people are living in the stone ages.

Orde (#133),

Problem is Gamal was contradicting the Quran (not to mention the Hadith) and the others were consistent with the Quran. So Gamal is the bad Muslim here, the hypocrite.

Ou contraire.

re: #136 Geepers

Orde (#133),

Problem is Gamal was contradicting the Quran (not to mention the Hadith) and the others were consistent with the Quran. So Gamal is the bad Muslim here, the hypocrite.

Ou contraire.

Disagreement noted, but on what basis? I didn't say he was a bad human, just a bad Muslim, as in unfaithful to the teaching of the Quran (and even moreso unfaithful to the Sunnah). It's not like they are silent on the death penalty for apostasy (though I admit, when it comes to blasphemy it's at least debatable, but not with apostasy).

re: #58 Live4Truth

Before a person converts to Islam, he has the liberty to choose, but remember that if you want to convert from Islam, you will be punished by death.

Sounds like a scene right out of some horror movie: A pretty face at the front door, inviting you to come in, telling you how wonderful it is inside, but then once you go in, you find out it's really hell, head for the door, and then find a team of ghouls standing by the door.

"You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave..."

I saw the girl on the left, third row up, had an ankle showing...

AN ANKLE!

Infidel! Apostate! Richard Simmons!

Smiling and laughing like some jolly old english vicar while arguing for the murder of thought criminals...it must be Islam.

This is not at all surprising.

Can there be internal opposition in a group of people where a large majority are willing to kill you for unorthodox belief?

How to stop this with one quick law:

Henceforth, anyone calling for the death of anyone else shall be put to death in the manner which he/she described for his/her foe.

That'd stop it fairly quick...

The fundamental (pun intended) difference between Christianity and the secular societies which flourished, and Islam and the societies it engenders, is the vasci belief in freedom of choice. One of the tenets of Christianity is humans have freedom to choose. Of course, the history of Christianity shows violence, and death, perpetrated in the name of christianity.

Except Christianity grew up. Islam doesn't appear to have the structure to allow it to change and accomodate differences.

Which is why they are stuck in a medieval mentality.

Meanwhile, down in OZ,
Mundine, shows how far advanced in his thinking he has become since he became a muslim.

Islam: deathcult in disguise.

(And not a very good one.)

The Masque is slipping...

It's Red, and spells Death.

re: #137 Orde

hmm..Well, wait a second. If the "correct" position were binary, there would be but 2 choices -- to allow the apostate to live or to kill the apostate. Not the 3 possibilities -- which were 1) to dialogue 2) to kill 3) to let the legal system handle the matter...(btw, I also noticed the varying score for the number 2 position, at one point going as high as 52 percent).

Also note that the debate was not about apostatic violation of the law (the moderator steered clear of this -- emphatically insisting that a violation of the law in terms of apostasy was already accounted for -- remember this is, after all, Saudi Arabia, and if you violate the law and apostatize -- a conviction carries the penalty of death. This wasn't what the debate was about.) I believe the debate was about someone who simply chose another religion (but didn't denigrate Islam in the process) or, perhaps, turned away from religion altogether. Then the question becomes (for practicing Muslims) what to do...(Also note there was not a consensus -- nearly a quarter dissented from the "killing" option). Isn't that good news, eh? Progress?

re: #142 dsrtegl

Only if they actually implemented it.

There is a difference in what freedoms are granted.
We believe in freedom of religion. The fundamentalist Islamists do not believe in freedom of religion; they believe in freedom to murder someone who was Muslim but who now has different ideas about what God wants of mankind.

I learned on "Lock-Up San Quinton" that if you try to leave the "Mexican Mafia" or the "Nazi Low Riders" they'll kill you too. There has to be some sort of commonality there.

Maybe it has something to do with being ignorant, psychopathic nutballs.

To be fair, the Egyptian cleric sounded like that rarest of species, the liberal, modern Muslim. We should be encouraging people like him.

The kids and the Wahabbi fascist in the robes, on the other hand, were downright scary; they made beheading over a matter of conscience sound like the most natural thing in the world.

"Islamic logic" is such a classical oxymoron!

Watching that, I thought I was in a twilight zone.

re: #131 Orde

I just got back from meeting with a Muslim about the teddy bears, since I was confused about why images of animals (regardless of name) were being allowed in Muslim homes since Muhammad had a fit about them, and my friend explained it depends on the purpose of the animals--if it's just a picture, statue, etc, not allowed, but if it's a toy, then it's allowed because it has use in teaching children. That makes sense, helped me understand it anyway.

Really that made sense to you? That makes about as much sense as a handbag on a fish.

This is what happens when money pours in too fast and society doesn't mature fast enough. I wonder if that one sane guy in this whole thing got stoned on his way out of the show. (posted at skewz.com)

Staggering.

They are discussing this with the breeziness that gardening show debates the use of lawns or patios. Only they are debating whether it's okay for people to believe in a non-Muslim theory about life...or whether they should be killed for doing so.

They laugh, chat and joke their way through this and most come to the conclusion that taking someone's life is the right way.

If anyone needed any further proof that Islam is a mixed up cult, then surely this squashes all arguments.

Sure, there are moderate Muslims. It's like saying that there are moderate Heaven's Gate members who chose not to commit suicide. Regardless of anyone's moderate spin on the religion, Islam remains an EVIL DEATH CULT...and if we pander to it, we are assisting evil.

re: #145 J.S.

I didn't mention the law or Shariah. I mentioned the Quran and Hadith. To the extent that there was a difference of opinion does not necessarily reflect not on the clarity about what the texts say (note I admitted that the blasphemy issue is rather unclear from the texts, but the apostasy one is not), but could be due to (1) the familiarity of the individual Muslim poll responder with the Quran/Hadith (in the same way there are many Christians unfamiliar with the Bible)--i.e., knowing doctrine, and/or (2) the faithfulness of the individual Muslim that knows the Quran/Hadith in adhering to it--i.e., practicing doctrine. I'm guessing the nice guy but bad Muslim Gamal falls in category 2.

You say that the debate seems to be about "simply someone choosing another religion" or "turned away from religion altogether" --yep, that's what it's about, and that's called "apostasy," no particular level of denigration necessary, just departure from the faith (and the declaration of someone being apostate is called takfir). As for the 25% "dissenting from the killing option," no, that doesn't seem like progress at all.

You know this sort of article will never make it into "mainstream" media. If some brave person attempts to post such material that person would be branded bigoted not just by muslims but by the liberals that run the outlets.

re: #152 stuck-in-ca

Really that made sense to you? That makes about as much sense as a handbag on a fish.

"Handbag on a fish," I like that. Yeah, I could relate to the Muslim's explanation--it's kind of like evangelicals who are very against icons, statues of saints, angel figurines, etc, yet don't have a problem watching a movie with such images on the screen. The Muslim's point was that the Meccan culture Muhammad came from was a center of religious tolerance with one of the Kaabah's ("the" Kaabah) being pilgrim center of worship for followers of hundreds of different deities. Images of humans and animals in the home suggest worshipping them or exalting them, when all are just created beings, but an image that is a toy is utilitarian and not for idolatry. I don't buy the argument totally (particularly since Muhammad changed the rule to accomadate Aisha's dolls), but I can at least see the distinction between idol and utilitarian teaching tool. (Hehheh, handbag on a fish...)

Believe it or not, this is a really good thing.

The host and that Gamal dude seemed to be making really good (to us) points about freedom of conscience and freedom to worship with your conscience. The fact that this is on TV there and these view points are being expressed is HUGE!

Thanks MEMRI. Everyone should give them a Christmas (or holiday!) present this year. Just 10 or 20 if that's all you can do. They are providing an INVALUABLE service.

re: #138 dsrtegl

re: #58 Live4Truth

Before a person converts to Islam, he has the liberty to choose, but remember that if you want to convert from Islam, you will be punished by death.

Sounds like a scene right out of some horror movie: A pretty face at the front door, inviting you to come in, telling you how wonderful it is inside, but then once you go in, you find out it's really hell, head for the door, and then find a team of ghouls standing by the door.

"You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave..."

Reading through the lyrics to Hotel California, that looks to me like it could make a good song about Islam, and without very much modification. The basic story line is already there, about being lured into an attractive-looking hell (attractive, in the same way that kids are attracted to joining gangs) and then finding it very difficult to get out.

re: #158 soccerdad

Believe it or not, this is a really good thing.

The host and that Gamal dude seemed to be making really good (to us) points about freedom of conscience and freedom to worship with your conscience. The fact that this is on TV there and these view points are being expressed is HUGE!

Thanks MEMRI. Everyone should give them a Christmas (or holiday!) present this year. Just 10 or 20 if that's all you can do. They are providing an INVALUABLE service.

Good point about how Gamal and the host were getting the ideas out there, even though the audience was ridiculing Gamal, and the host was just presenting the ideas for the sake of discussion. The real audience, watching their TVs at home, surely must have been affected by that.

And I'll second the suggestion of a Christmas donation to MEMRI . . . and LGF. I'm doing it right now...

How dare you show this, Islamophobe! Racist! Biggot!... Infidel!

re: #157 Orde

Images of humans and animals in the home suggest worshipping them or exalting them, when all are just created beings, but an image that is a toy is utilitarian and not for idolatry. I don't buy the argument totally (particularly since Muhammad changed the rule to accomadate Aisha's dolls), but I can at least see the distinction between idol and utilitarian teaching tool. (Hehheh, handbag on a fish...)

Well, yes... that's an explanation. But it still makes no sense. Images of humans in the home does not suggest worshipping. I have a photo of my mother-in-law, but I hardly worship her! Photos of humans and animals on the walls are just as utilitarian as a toy! They decorate the walls. Their explanation is as illogical as their entire religion. But's it's nice of you to try to be so understanding for the sake of your friend. Not sure you are doing anyone any favors. To tolerate the intolerable, is to support it.

re: #162 stuck-in-ca

To tolerate the intolerable, is to support it.

Yes, I support the right of Muslims or anyone to choose their own home decor and toys. I can't imagine what you find so intolerable about my Muslim neighbors making a private choice to exclude images of animate creatures in their private home. I also admire their desire to please their deity.

re: #10 chinacoalwatcher

The logic is air-tight!

By the way, anybody think there's something fishy going on with the Iran Nuclear program issue in the National Intelligence Estimate?

And of course, isn't it something to see all those people who, a day ago, wouldn't believe for a second anything coming out of US Intel, suddenly embracing the NIE as holy writ?

you simply aren't cynical enough... %-)

redc1c4,
who isn't cynical, just experienced.

re: #103 cookielady

Okay, so the 'tiny minority' of Muslims that are 'hijacking this religion of peace' are 76% of the population.

76% of 1.5 billion is 1.14 Billion (with a B) people.

We are in very, very, very deep doo-doo.

no, we aren't.

the US military learned from our Civil War.

why do you think we have the assembly line? %-)

Islam is faith and liberty; ( video quote)

just do not leave the religion once one joins, one could or most certainly will be killed (message from video)

unfortunately, their lexical definition of "Liberty" is nothing like western civilization has defined it.

There you go, it's as simple as that: "that's why he will not become an apostate."

Whew, I'm glad someone told me. Shukran, majnoon.

I was thinking on this last night, and came to a solution. What they need is to add something to their laws. I was thinking something along the lines of

Thou shalt not commit murder

I find it pretty disgusting that they are justifying murdering innocent people for the simple fact that they wish to worship differently.

Did you notice that extrajudicial killings of apostates were acceptable? In other words, any muslim is duty bound to kill apostates while defining what constitutes an apostate himself. No judge or jury is needed.

In effect, if a muslim does not like someone, then he just declares the person to be an apostate and kills the person.

What a phuqued up religion?

The old Egyptian spoke with wisdom. I hope he lives a long life.

I'm reminded of what Ayaan Hirsi Ali says, "Tolerance of the intolerant is cowardice."

re: #155 Orde

In comment number 137 Orde wrote:

It's not like they are silent on the death penalty for apostasy (though I admit, when it comes to blasphemy it's at least debatable, but not with apostasy).

Well, what do you think the debate was about if not apostasy? The reason why there is a debate on the topic of apostasy is because the Koran does not specify the punishment for apostasy. (A calling for the death penalty for those who leave Islam is not found in the Koran...It's found in ahadith -- typically the Hadith of Bukhari is quoted, "Whosoever changes his religion, kill him.") But there are dissenters from the "kill them" dictate...as we can also see in this debate.

re: #171 J.S.

re: #155 Orde

In comment number 137 Orde wrote:

It's not like they are silent on the death penalty for apostasy (though I admit, when it comes to blasphemy it's at least debatable, but not with apostasy).

Well, what do you think the debate was about if not apostasy? The reason why there is a debate on the topic of apostasy is because the Koran does not specify the punishment for apostasy. (A calling for the death penalty for those who leave Islam is not found in the Koran...It's found in ahadith -- typically the Hadith of Bukhari is quoted, "Whosoever changes his religion, kill him.") But there are dissenters from the "kill them" dictate...as we can also see in this debate.

You are the one (in #145) who said the debate wasn't about apostasy, I replied in #155 to say that the debate most certainly was about apostasy, and specifically, about the penalty for apostasy (both of which are in the Quran, btw--the hadith you mention finds a parallel for ex in Quran 4:39--you can type in 4:39 in the search bar at the very helpful site quranbrowser).

re: #172 Orde

My bad, verse mentioned should be 4:89, not 4:39. One reason I like that quranbrowser website is that after you type in the verse number (4:89), it pops up the verse in a long line of Quran versions, so you can compare the different wordings.

I just shared this link with a follower of 'Religion of Peace' coworker.
His reply
--
He do not believe it.This is all media conspiracy, they are showing views of a small minority to defame Islam. He won't trust the translation from memritv.org.
--
Why am I not surprised?

re: #172 Orde

A few points of clarification.

1) First, the MEMRI clip is titled: "Debate on Apostates in Islam". This topic is hotly debated in the Muslim/Arab world. One more time -- the topic of Apostates is a hotly debated topic.

2) Second, when I stated in comment number 145, "Also note that the debate was not about apostatic violation of the law" -- I was making reference to the moderator's clarification which occurred at two points in the debate. An audience member (female) asked the moderator: "Why is there a problem with declaring people to be infidels?" Moderator's answer: "I am not saying there is, I am just asking a question" ( ie, the moderator is asking a "simple question" -- the question is: "Does a Muslim have the liberty to change his religion or not?" -- that's the question -- not about any "violation of the law" -- one more time, the question is NOT about "violation of the law." On the second occasion the following took place: The Moderator states: "We all agree that whoever violates the law must be punished. Nobody is disputing that. We are talking about a matter relating to one's belief, not about violation of the law." Ok? Got that? One more time -- this is not about "violation of the law." (The punishment for apostasy is not detailed in the Koran. It comes from ahaidth and Shariah law).

3) Third, I can't help wondering about non-Muslims who appear so anxious to condemn the Koran as a kind of "terrorist" handbook. Or who set themselves up to make judgements/pronouncements with respect to who are the "Good Muslims" (note, these are the al-Qaeda types whom you proclaim as the "good Muslims") and who are the "bad Muslims" -- and, O Surprise! -- your assessment perfectly tallies with that of al-Qaeda. I mean, really, what are you doing? What's the point of doing this? And, don't you find this just a tad arrogant?

re: #175 J.S.

Yes, my "bad Muslim" characterization does tally perfectly with Al-Qaeda and any of the other varieties of Qutbism and also I think with all but one of the main madhabs. With all the talk about whether Islam can be reshaped in a peaceful way that will be accepted by mainstream Islam or whether it's inherently so evil that it can't, I come down on the side that Islam as found in the Quran and Sunnah (i.e., Sunni Islam) is inherently evil and the best approach is to tell the truth about that--to expose. Others disagree, obviously, case in point, frontpagemagazine recently did a feature article on the new Quran: A Reformist Translation and one of its translator's has even quoted Daniel Pipes when promoting his Quran. But this Quran is from a group seen as seriously heretical and it hurts credibilty when people even suggest this can be seen as Islam. Islam places emphasis on the original Arabic and on the Sunnah, which absolutely has to be given weight or the Quran makes no sense and since the Quran itself commands it. Therefore those in the 2 Arabic centers of Islam--Saudi Arabia and Egypt--will always carry disproportionate weight when it comes to what Islam will tolerate as far as innovations before they cross over into takfir. I do not think it is a productive use of time and resources to pretend that the Quran and Hadith teach something they do not, to deny the ulema, itjihad, etc. I do believe that most Muslims, particularly in the nonArabic parts of the world (i.e., the majority of the ummah) are much less familiar with these texts and have more syncretistic faiths due to their origins (often due to Sufi missionaries, etc), but the texts say what they do.

re: #176 Orde

J.S.
Here's the link to the frontpagemagazine article on the Quran: A Reformist Translation I was shocked to see promoted there, and I apologize for not closing the italics in the last post. Well, good night.

re: #177 Orde

Recently I came across an excellent book -- it's "The West, Islam and Islamism: Is ideological Islam compatible with liberal democracy?" by Caroline Cox and John Marks. I highly recommend this book -- if you haven't already come across it. One of the themes is about "shackled minds" and about the need for self-critiques (there was a very informative snippet written by a Muslim who detailed how Islam allows questioning, but only up to a certain point -- he made a number of pertinent observations...it wasn't from the "usual" critics of Islam -- it was a professor -- can't find the name...but even in the MEMRI clip we see also that critical questions can only be allowed up to a certain ppint, then the brakes are applied.) Anyway, Chapter 5 discusses the "Challenges for Western societies," and Chapter 6 discusses the "Challenges to Islam". This text by Cox and Marks in no way white-washes Islamism -- (there are segments on "deception, intimidation, infiltration" etc.) -- yet neither do the authors demonize Islam...they try to balance/straddle the opposing sides...Anyway, I figure that even the minimalist of "questioning" in Islam (particularly in S. Arabia) is a positive step forward (it opens the door a crack...and needs to be encouraged/nurtured), but without (on the other hand) understating or under-estimating the threats coming from puritanical interpretations of Islam...

re: #178 J.S.

Thanks, Cox's book has been on my Amazon Wish List, but because it's product page says 4-6 weeks I've just not bothered yet (reading lots of other stuff), but intend to!--if you want to talk Israel or Islam books, you can private message me over at my LibraryThing Profile Page--btw, LibraryThing just started a Hebrew site due to getting an Israeli publisher on board for its Early Reviewer program (free books for reviews, whether positive or negative), and there are several interesting-looking Israel books offered (you mentioned "shackled minds" and one of the books offered is Caroline Glick's upcoming "Shackled Warrior") Anyway, gotta run...I agree questioning Islam is positive, extremely positive, it's the stats that didn't thrill me. (My view of all this along the lines of Hirsi Ali and the folks at NewEnglishReview) Later -

Trying my avatar

So 75% of the young Muslims in the audience applaud the idea of handing over their brains, freedom of thought, freedom of choice, freedom of speech and freedom of religion to the fascist notion that even those who do no longer believe in Islam must be forced into silence and continue to go through the motions as if they did believe, or else be declared infidels and sentenced to death.

Islam is truly desperate if it feels it must resort to terrorizing its own followers to maintain its ranks. It's almost like they are starting to to have to shoot deserters to keeps their ranks from bolting. After that starts to happen, it usually isn't long before there is a full-scale mutiny.