Prayers.

I hope we don't see their name and suicide notes glorifying this behaviour. I'm afraid this is going to grow for a while.

Witnesses told police that the gunman was a 20-year-old white male, wearing a dark jacket and skull cap.

Skull cap?

I'm sure the media is working hard to determine if this was a Gun Free Zone, and they'll be quick to report it to everybody if it is.

Then maybe we can catch a leprachaun and use his pot of gold to pay of the national debt.

Witnesses told police that the gunman was a 20-year-old white male, wearing a dark jacket and skull cap. He may have glasses or a beard.

Sounds like a boy scout.

They've got a description, which is helpful, but the conditions aren't. Snow on the ground isn't going to make it easy to find the attacker.

My thoughts and prayers go out to those affected.

A skull cap, and possibly a beard.

re: #3 annelid

Two of them are in paradise now

This guy will strike again.

Morning' Charles. Bad to start with this.

Witnesses told police that the gunman was a 20-year-old white male, wearing a dark jacket and skull cap. He may have glasses or a beard.

Hmmmm.

From their website, it's clear they do mission work in some Muslim areas, though from this story, they don't sound like a bunch of hard-core neo-cons.

re: #4 Killgore Trout

Could be a Muslim skullcap, or a kippah worn by a Jew. Either way, whoever did this is a murderer who can and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Fox News keeps referring to a skull cap, but my money is on a kufi -- a traditional Muslim skullcap. Honor killing?

re: #8 Charles

Rabbi!

re: #8 Charles

Going with the Gorn look these days?

insane, senseless... evil

re: #4 Killgore Trout

When I first saw "skull cap" I thought of a yarmulke for some reason. However my second thought is that a Jew killing Christians is essentially so improbable as to be impossible.

Then I remembered that certain Muslims wear something called a "skull cap".

Evil knows no race or religion.

re: #8 Charles

Charles, is that the Gorn?

Oh, great Lizard Master! thanks so much for giving me a smile--I needed one.

re: #17 Pro-Bush Canuck

It could also be a nut with tinfoil on his head to keep aliens from reading his mind. We'll see when more info comes in.

Let's see ... missionaries killed by a skullcap-wearing man ... he must be a Buddhist. Missionaries convert people. It is death to convert from Islam. You do the math.

re: #18 cookielady

Evil knows no race or religion.

There is one religion that seems to be on a first name basis with evil.

Now if only Congress would pass some laws making shootings like this illegal.

Better yet, there should be some laws making those guns illegal! That will definitely help.

This has a kind of 'Ismail Ax' VT kind of feel about it. I hope other people in the neighborhood keep their eyes peeled.

re: #13 ec marm

Fox News keeps referring to a skull cap, but my money is on a kufi -- a traditional Muslim skullcap. Honor killing?

The Muslim I saw at Starbucks a few months ago was wearing a crocheted kufi.

re: #11 Lucius Septimius

Youth With a Mission is well-known and respected. They don't cause trouble, unless one considers conversions trouble. Can you think of anyone who gets violent about that?

tick, tick, tick...

re: #20 Killgore Trout

IF more info comes in. In Canada the man's religion would be rigourously suppressed.

In 1989 a Muslim killed 14 women at engineering school in Montreal. Canadians did not find out his religion until almost 10 years later. And that was long before 9/11. Imagine what leftists would do now.

Man not found yet? Let's hope they are right now reviewing surveillance tapes, and can get a picture or drawing out in the next 4 hours.

God be with the families of the stricken.

re: #22 storagemanager

re: #18 cookielady

Evil knows no race or religion.

There is one religion that seems to be on a first name basis with evil.

I know. I didn't know how to say that anyone could commit an evil act, while mentioning that evil takes refuge in one religion in particular on a regular basis.

Well, I guess I just did. I need another cup of tea.

They should lock up all the guns...then people wouldn't each other...I mean Cain killed Abel with a gun right?

re: #22 storagemanager

re: #18 cookielady

Evil knows no race or religion.

There is one religion that seems to be on a first name basis with evil.

You beat me to it!

The killer could not have gone too far. The roads are frozen and iced over.

Prayers to the victims and their families.

Sounds like it could be one of those Muslim 'moderates' to me.

I guess PIMF...after all.

Prayers for the victims and their families.

Let's not jump to conclusions, is what I meant. Nutcases abound this year and this season; Omaha springs to mind.

re: #30 storagemanager

Yup. Canada has bred handguns since 1935 so we're 100% safe.

Just don't tell that to the parents of the 15 year-old honor student who was gunned down by a stray bullet during a gang free-for-all shootout on Toronto's main street in the middle of the Christmas shopping season.

re: #37 Pro-Bush Canuck

PIMF "bred" = "banned"

re: #23 Yishai

Now if only Congress would pass some laws making shootings like this illegal.

Better yet, there should be some laws making those guns illegal! That will definitely help.

You're joking right?

re: #18 cookielady

Think probabilities here. Find a synagogue where whacking missionaries is the theme of Hanukkah week, and then you can come back with the argument that who knows, maybe it was a jewish skullcap.

When I saw this on the news this morning I discovered that there is a mosque (apparently) on the grounds of Denver International Airport.

I don't think we should make any conclusions about the shooter's religion or ethnicity until we hear the full facts.

The center is home to dozens of young people from all over the world who are training to be Christian missionaries, according to the center's Web site

. [Link: www.cnn.com...]

Pissed off JOOOOOOOO?

re: #26 cookielady

re: #11 Lucius Septimius

Youth With a Mission is well-known and respected. They don't cause trouble, unless one considers conversions trouble. Can you think of anyone who gets violent about that?

tick, tick, tick...

Yep -- that's the thing; they are about as even-handed as you can get. Of course given that conversion away from Islam is a capital crime in much of the Muslim world, it doesn't matter how much a group or individual tries to "understand" the politics of the region. So long as what you seek is conversion, you have written your own death warrant.

After 9/11 I had a student write an essay for a class I was teaching. The topic was conversion narratives in historical accounts -- the idea was to compare different understandings of what "conversion" involved. A Muslim student wrote a rant where he repeated over and over again that his "Imam" taught that apostacy was the greatest sin of all and those who apostocised deserved no mercy.

It still makes my blood run cold thinking about it. I still see him periodically around town and I can't help but wonder whether, one day, I will see his picture among a group of terrorists who have either been apprehended or are being sought.

re: #40 lostlakehiker

If I were an odds-maker:

Probability:

Jewish - 0.01%
Muslim - 85%
Other - 14.99%

re: #36 cookielady

Let's not jump to conclusions, is what I meant. Nutcases abound this year and this season; Omaha springs to mind.

Second that. 24 hour rule, and all.

It used to be that people just took some pills, or shot themselves, locked themselves in the garage with the car running during the holiday season to kill themselves.

For many, it is a depressing time of the year.

In the new "open" age, with facebook, myspace and blogging, it seems that the "executions" are now much more public. So in order to draw attention to themselves, they do more and more dangerous things, hurting more and more innocents in the process.

Gun control will not change this. More counseling probably doesn't change this. It is a very disturbing trend, and it escapes me as how to stop it.

Like the saying is, "If guns kill people, then silverware made Rosie fat. Ban all silverware."

Prayers for the Families of the victims.

re: #46 Pro-Bush Canuck

re: #40 lostlakehiker

If I were an odds-maker:

Probability:

Jewish - 0.01%
Muslim - 85%
Other - 14.99%

Amish guy who cut the brim off his hat.

I have not read one post...that says what the shooters religion is...just people guessing...nothing wrong with that.

All four of the victims were staff members, Filidis said.

Fox update
Changes the equation a little. Maybe not related to one particular person, against the facility itself.

re: #45 Lucius Septimius

What grade did he get?

re: #45 Lucius Septimius

To me this is a central reason why Islam isn't a real religion at all. In Christianity if someone leaves the faith we understand that it is between that person and God. Some Christians may believe that the apostate will burn in Hell, but the vast majority simply leave it in God's hands and that's that. No modern Christian could ever dream of punishing someone for leaving.

The Muslims do not seem to think that Allah can look after these matters itself. Why does all-powerful Allah need people to render judgement here on earth, when presumably Allah is capable of judgement itself (or is it, hard to tell with Islamic "theology").

It just doesn't add up. They don't worship God as far as I understand that concept.

One can see tracks in snow. Michale Savage always says that when the MSM give few particulars, it is a minority they are protecting. If they give the name it is usually a white Christian or a Jew. It is hard to stay outside overnight in the snow. More crimes are committed in the summer than the winter. I wonder if this guy thought it through at all.

YWAM Staff Killed in Denver
By Paul Filidis

It is with great sadness that we report the shooting death of two staff members at our YWAM Denver (Arvada) training location. The shooting occurred just after midnight, Sunday early morning; two additional staff members were injured, one is in critical condition. Please pray -- for the families who are on their way to Denver -- for the critically injured young man undergoing surgery today -- for the staff and students who have been evacuated to another location -- for the apprehension of the gunman who fled the scene

[Link: www.ywam.org...]

Tragic... I used to live 10 miles from there.

Hope they catch him soon.

It's beginning to look a lot like Ramadan
Ev'rywhere you go;
Take a look in the five and ten Suicide bombers once again
With body parts and silver lanes aglow.
It's beginning to look a lot like Ramadan
Suicide Bombers in ev'ry store
But the prettiest sight to see is Holly that will be
Beheaded on your own front door.

A pair of hopalong boots and a pistol that shoots
Is the wish of Achmed and Amir;
Remote Bomb Dolls that will talk and will go for a walk
Is the hope of Janice and Jen (recent converts);
And Mom and Dad can hardly wait for Madrassa to start again.
It's beginning to look a lot like Ramadan
Ev'rywhere you go;
There's a Koran in the Grand Hotel, one in the park as well,
The sturdy kind that doesn't mind the toilets.
It's beginning to look a lot like Ramadan;
Soon the prayer calls will start,
And the thing that will make them sing is the carol that they sing
About tearing out your heart.

Allahu Akbar and Merry Ramadan!
Merry Ramadan to all and to all a Jihad Night!

*spit*

re: #53 MandyManners

re: #45 Lucius Septimius

What grade did he get?

Not a very good one. I graded the assignment according to my standard rubric, based on the extent to which he answered the question and made use of the assigned materials. He failed on both counts. My basic comment was "this is irrelevant to the assignment."

re: #39 onepistoffyid

re: #23 Yishai

Now if only Congress would pass some laws making shootings like this illegal.

Better yet, there should be some laws making those guns illegal! That will definitely help.

You're joking right?

I'm waiting for a response Yishai....you can't be serious.

re: #58 Oh no...Sand People!

Fantastic!

surprisingly, Time Magazine had a very good article with a different twist on things like this. They are not blaming in on video games etc, but on the individual themselves.

It's all about Him

re: #59 Lucius Septimius

He musta' been pissed off.

re: #45 Lucius Septimius

I would be tempted "to share" that piece of info with the police and the FBI.

Damn, so it begins again with the cycle of mass murder and media attention. After Columbine it was every other month some kid or kids would shoot their fellow students. Now with Virginia Tech., Omaha Mall shootings, and now Arvada Missionary School attack with various other shootings throughout the year all with the same sex and age group. Young men between 18-21 with a chip on their shoulder and too many loose screws going nuts with small arms on innocent people, just to take down a few people so the shooter can share his misery.

re: #61 MandyManners

re: #58 Oh no...Sand People!

Fantastic!

I know the 24 hour rule applies to the shooting...this is just a general all around 'feel good' song to commemorate in general the ROP.

re: #54 Pro-Bush Canuck

re: #45 Lucius Septimius

To me this is a central reason why Islam isn't a real religion at all. In Christianity if someone leaves the faith we understand that it is between that person and God. Some Christians may believe that the apostate will burn in Hell, but the vast majority simply leave it in God's hands and that's that. No modern Christian could ever dream of punishing someone for leaving.

The Muslims do not seem to think that Allah can look after these matters itself. Why does all-powerful Allah need people to render judgement here on earth, when presumably Allah is capable of judgement itself (or is it, hard to tell with Islamic "theology").

It just doesn't add up. They don't worship God as far as I understand that concept.

As Roger Williams once said, "Forced worship stincks in God's nostrils"
(his spelling, not mine).

re: #40 lostlakehiker

Never in a million years! I don't know much about skullcaps. Don't start picking on me, ok? Normally I'm one of the first to whisper, 'Isssssslam.' It just didn't sound like that yet. If this guy was only wearing a skullcap in this weather, I wonder about how close he lives to the center.

Prayers for the innocents. I am surprised that his age is so definite but whether he had glasses, beard and so forth is so vague...unless the Powers that Be are withholding something.

Prayers indeed. At his point I pray they find this guy.

re: #54 Pro-Bush Canuck

They are worshipping a rock: idolatry.

re: #63 MandyManners

re: #59 Lucius Septimius

He musta' been pissed off.

Oddly enough, no. Because of the way I approached it, he knew that he had not done the assignment. I made it very clear that his beliefs were not the issue. He freely admitted he'd not done the work. He was one of a group of students I knew very well, and his friends told him he deserved what he got.

My sense is that he was confused -- he came from a very westernized Iranian family that had fled after the Shah fell. He was hearing radically different messages from his family and close friends and from the voices at the Mosque he had started attending recently. My only hope is that the former trumped the latter.

If this guy walked into a dormitory just after midnight, shot 4 people-including 2 staff members- and left, It is not just a random incident. I am not ruling out sudden jihad syndrome, but there is going to be some kind of history. Btw- facilities like this one operate on a shoestring budget, and the incidence of crime or violence is virtually unheard of, so video surveillance is an unnecessary luxury.

NY Times say he was wearing a "white coat" and a "dark beanie-style hat."

re: #69 stanlef

Very good investigative-reporter thinking.

re: #72 Lucius Septimius

I, too, hope his raising won out in the end.

re: #71 Ojoe

re: #54 Pro-Bush Canuck

They are worshipping a rock: idolatry.

Their concept of "Allah" is highly mechanistic and abstract (Allah is almost like a computer program), so "worshipping a rock" is almost literally true. There is no humanity in Islam, as there is in the deeply human and resonant Judeo-Christian framework.

re: #47 bikermailman

re: #36 cookielady

Let's not jump to conclusions, is what I meant. Nutcases abound this year and this season; Omaha springs to mind.

Second that. 24 hour rule, and all.

ok, I'll wait ..but whenever I see that scull cap on an American Muslim, I have a fairly good idea of the mindset of the individual wearing it, as I've conversed often with many who don such. They're volatile to say the least.

re: #77 Pro-Bush Canuck

Where's their beatrific painting of Madonna and Child?

Yep. inhuman.

re: #76 MandyManners

re: #72 Lucius Septimius

I, too, hope his raising won out in the end.

Imagine my disappointment at your avatar being gone. Someone said you were using the French flag.

re: #72 Lucius Septimius

I wish I had more teachers like you in school.

re: #58 Oh no...Sand People!

great icon, I wanted that one but couldn't find it.

re: #74 freedomsound

NY Times say he was wearing a "white coat" and a "dark beanie-style hat."

I've seen the article about this shooting at six different news web sites so far and none of them used the phrase 'beanie-style.' The NYT writer apparently felt the need to correct what the police are reporting.

Season's greetings:
Christians banned
Santa, 'holy homosexuals' OK for parade, but no floats with direct religious themes

-------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------
Posted: December 2, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern

By Joe Kovacs
© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com

In the latest skirmish over Christmas in America, a Christian group is not allowed to participate in Denver's annual Parade of Lights, because church members sought to sing yuletide hymns and proclaim a "Merry Christmas" message on their float.

However, the event, now in its 30th year, will include homosexual American Indians, Kung Fu artisans, belly dancers and, of course, Santa Claus.

"I think there's an agenda that is anti-Christian," Pastor George Morrison, tells WorldNetDaily. "It seems like this agenda has crept in, and it's robbing us."

Morrison heads the Faith Bible Chapel in Arvada, Colo., among Denver's largest evangelical churches with over 4,000 attendees each week.

[Link: www.worldnetdaily.com...]

re: #82 onepistoffyid

re: #58 Oh no...Sand People!

great icon, I wanted that one but couldn't find it.

I rushed the photoshopping, but there's another RageBoy icon kicking around here as another avatar...different pose...so I decided to keep mine. Heh.

Unfortunately we may have another incident to add to the list of terrorist attacks on US soil since September 11th. Occasionally you still meet clueless libs who will declare that there have not been any. Yeah, good luck with that theory.

OT - I haven't the tech knowledge of how to speed loading.. but it seems to me avatars should be viewable by all, not only those logged-in, as the numbers of readers as opposed to contributers is nearly 10 to 1.

re: #27 Pro-Bush Canuck

Bush Canuck: Check out Mark Steyn's column on this very subject:

[Link: www.steynonline.com...]

re: #74 freedomsound

NY Times say he was wearing a "white coat" and a "dark beanie-style hat."

Did they mention a propeller?

Sorry, I won't go fetch a NYTimes article. Why bother?

re: #89 Capitalist Tool

re: #74 freedomsound

NY Times say he was wearing a "white coat" and a "dark beanie-style hat."

Did they mention a propeller?

Sorry, I won't go fetch a NYTimes article. Why bother?

Did he ride away on the moose.

re: #72 Lucius Septimius

Your courses look very interesting, I`m sure I`d enjoy some of them. i never went to college, rice paddies instead and had too big an attitude after that to tolerate the collegiate atmosphere of the 60`s. Your courses on the Elizabethian age and the age of Exploration appeal to me, I have a library containing almost all the Hakluyt society`s publications and really enjoy them. Makes me wish I could read Spanish, Portuguese andd Dutch for more. Oh well, old age has put paid to any college for me.

I just hope they catch the scumbag quickly. You'd think he would have left some good tracks in the fresh snow.

Masjid links for Arvada CO

Note the list of Muslim owned businesses in the area include the Comfort Inn, Hyatt Regency and Residence Inn.

#83 ec marm

Yeah, I know. What are they trying to say by "beanie?" In any case, it is interesting that they say "white coat" while everyone else is reporting "dark jacket."

re: #67 Lucius Septimius

I heard at a lecture that Christians and Jews see their God as Godly and Goodly and loving, but that Muslims don't. The only quality Allah has got is being Powerful. Sort of like the G'oauld, (sci fi) my metaphor.

I hate my stupid protection program. It blocks the sending of my password. Blocks my posting. It asks if I want to add the website to the exception list, and this is one of my favorite sites, and then limits the exception list to 200 which got met years ago, so I have to turn off the program and then remember to turn it back on. And it thinks it is making a good impression on me by doing this: Trend PC Cillin. So then I still can't post so I have to copy and paste what I was going to say somewhere else, go backwards, and then go forwards and then copy and paste. etc etc etc.

re: #91 JHW

re: #72 Lucius Septimius

Your courses look very interesting, I`m sure I`d enjoy some of them. i never went to college, rice paddies instead and had too big an attitude after that to tolerate the collegiate atmosphere of the 60`s. Your courses on the Elizabethian age and the age of Exploration appeal to me, I have a library containing almost all the Hakluyt society`s publications and really enjoy them. Makes me wish I could read Spanish, Portuguese andd Dutch for more. Oh well, old age has put paid to any college for me.

Learning is lifetime. You can take a course without spending tons of time getting a new degree. Online courses abound, and correspondance courses are also available for just about any subject or interest you may have. I homeschool, and have learned a lot of things just by checking out what is available for my kids. Community colleges have lots of evening or weekend classes, and usually a wide age-range of students; the one my 17yo is attending has an average age of 37! Don't let a few years past your stupid 20's stop you from learning about anything that strikes your fancy-- go for it!

#89 Capitalist Tool

Sorry, I won't go fetch a NYTimes article.

Wasn't "fetching." I am reading everything recent, sorted by date/time, that comes up in google news search, to see if there is any new information.

re: #96 cookielady

I might just do that if I can find subjects of interest, as for example the two I mentioned. You are right and thank you for the encouragement!

re: #88 Whiterasta

re: #27 Pro-Bush Canuck

Bush Canuck: Check out Mark Steyn's column on this very subject:

[Link: www.steynonline.com...]

Bingo:

M. Lepine was born Gamil Gharbi, the son of an Algerian Muslim wife-beater, whose brutalized spouse told the court at their divorce hearing that her husband "had a total disdain for women and believed they were intended only to serve men." At 18, young Gamil took his mother's maiden name. The Gazette in Montreal mentioned this in its immediate reports of the massacre. The name "Gamil Gharbi" has not sullied its pages in the 12 years since.

This seems to be new:

Peter Warren, the Director of Youth with a Mission Denver says YWAM had just finished a Christmas banquet when the suspect arrived and asked 26-year-old Tiffany Johnson of Minnesota if he could be housed for the evening. When Johnson told him they could not accommodate him, Warren says, the suspect opened fired with an automatic handgun, hitting four people, including Johnson.

[Link: www.9news.com...]

Gotta go, lizards. Going to trudge through the ice storm to see a concert and have dinner for my burfday (another f-word one!). Trans-Siberian Orchestra, here I come! I may slip and slide, but I'll get there.

Keep your frills up, and do your shopping online this year. :-(

re: #94 freedomsound

#83 ec marm

Yeah, I know. What are they trying to say by "beanie?" In any case, it is interesting that they say "white coat" while everyone else is reporting "dark jacket."

Islamic formal wear (Black Formal Nawabi complete with kufi)

re: #101 cookielady

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

I read that this morning and did not get the implication about the "skull cap" till reading here.

re: #65 Idle Drifter

Damn, so it begins again with the cycle of mass murder and media attention. After Columbine it was every other month some kid or kids would shoot their fellow students. Now with Virginia Tech., Omaha Mall shootings, and now Arvada Missionary School attack with various other shootings throughout the year all with the same sex and age group. Young men between 18-21 with a chip on their shoulder and too many loose screws going nuts with small arms on innocent people, just to take down a few people so the shooter can share his misery.

Sadly - I think that's about right.

re: #103 Pro-Bush Canuck

Thanks! It's actually Tuesday, but Mr. Cookie is taking me to this fun thing tonight, because he has to work that day.

And, as much as I dislike being in the f-words, it's okay because I love my life, and I'm healthy and have a great family. Gosh, I'm just so blessed, I better stop whining about my age, LOL!

re: #106 cookielady

re: #103 Pro-Bush Canuck

Thanks! It's actually Tuesday, but Mr. Cookie is taking me to this fun thing tonight, because he has to work that day.

And, as much as I dislike being in the f-words, it's okay because I love my life, and I'm healthy and have a great family. Gosh, I'm just so blessed, I better stop whining about my age, LOL!

Enjoy...next year I get the black cake.

re: #85 Oh no...Sand People!

The icon says it all.

He may have glasses or a beard.

Because it's easy to mix those up. "He may have had glasses, or it could have been a beard?"

A good disguise possibility, hairy glasses you wear on your chin. No jury could EVER convict you.

/smart*ss

re: #102 saywhat?

You are right! Everyone else was saying 'white' coat and this article said BLACK coat...I was thinking...what?

1. Prayers for the victims.

2. Wait and see on the perp.

That's all I have for now. Not that I don't have my suspicions.

[such as] When the press (or a PC police PA official) says "skull cap" what do you think they are attempting to imply?

re: #109 Beholden

I saw that on Yahoo news. Glasses or a beard. How can you possibly tell the difference? Coulda been long eyebrows.

Gotta go fold piles of laundry and make lunch.

Prayers for the victims and their families.

re: #74 freedomsound

NY Times say he was wearing a "white coat" and a "dark beanie-style hat."

// The hybrid outfit must have confused the Times: 'something old, something new, just borrowed the Iman's weapon 'cause I was blue'..... they can't quite figure it out just what kind of fashion statement the dispossessed youth is trying to make.

The Arvada Police web site:
[Link: arvadapd.org...]
Is now calling it a "a dark colored jacket and dark colored beanie AKA skull cap"

#114 Ackomanyuki

The first draft of the NY Times article said nothing about a "skull cap," but that he belonged to the "skull and bones" and spoke with a Texas drawl.

"The Muslims do not seem to think that Allah can look after these matters itself. Why does all-powerful Allah need people to render judgement here on earth, when presumably Allah is capable of judgement itself (or is it, hard to tell with Islamic "theology")."

Interesting, right? I like the strange "we love death" + "but we must either convert, subjugate, or slaughter the non-believers of the whole world" paradox.

"I heard at a lecture that Christians and Jews see their God as Godly and Goodly and loving, but that Muslims don't. The only quality Allah has got is being Powerful. Sort of like the G'oauld, (sci fi) my metaphor."

In Seven Pillars of Wisdom, TE Lawrence actually does a pretty great job of evoking what it is that's supposed to be cosmical about the concept of Allah. In his discussion of the Bedouin he sort of compares it to the infinite blasted space of the Arabian wastes, undifferentiated land forever beneath a virtually unchanging blue sky. In such an environment the god that makes sense, I guess, is this absolutely abstract, utterly inscrutable being manifested in a brutal, indifferent, inhospitable silence. I forget exactly how he did it, but it made more sense afterward - although it did not make it more attractive.

#117 kulthur

Sort of like the G'oauld, (sci fi) my metaphor.

More like the Borg, if you ask me. "Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated," etc. And don't forget the Borg cube, what does that remind you of?

ha - exactly.

the borg & mars attacks! are the parables of the time!

re: #117 kulthur

"The Muslims do not seem to think that Allah can look after these matters itself. Why does all-powerful Allah need people to render judgement here on earth, when presumably Allah is capable of judgement itself (or is it, hard to tell with Islamic "theology")."

Interesting, right? I like the strange "we love death" + "but we must either convert, subjugate, or slaughter the non-believers of the whole world" paradox.

"I heard at a lecture that Christians and Jews see their God as Godly and Goodly and loving, but that Muslims don't. The only quality Allah has got is being Powerful. Sort of like the G'oauld, (sci fi) my metaphor."

In Seven Pillars of Wisdom, TE Lawrence actually does a pretty great job of evoking what it is that's supposed to be cosmical about the concept of Allah. In his discussion of the Bedouin he sort of compares it to the infinite blasted space of the Arabian wastes, undifferentiated land forever beneath a virtually unchanging blue sky. In such an environment the god that makes sense, I guess, is this absolutely abstract, utterly inscrutable being manifested in a brutal, indifferent, inhospitable silence. I forget exactly how he did it, but it made more sense afterward - although it did not make it more attractive.

In the seventh century of the Christian era, a wandering Arab of the lineage of Hagar (mohammed), the Egyptian, combining the powers of transcendent genius, with the preternatural energy of a fanatic, and the fraudulent spirit of an impostor, proclaimed himself as a messenger from Heaven, and spread desolation and delusion over an extensive portion of the earth. Adopting from the sublime conception of the Mosaic law, the doctrine of one omnipotent god; he connected indissolubly with it, the audacious falsehood, that he was himself his prophet and apostle. Adopting from the new Revelation of Jesus, the faith and hope of immortal life, and of future retribution, he humbled it to the dust by adapting all the rewards and sanctions of his religion to the gratification of the sexual passion. He poisoned the sources of human felicity at the fountain, by degrading the condition of the female sex, and the allowance of polygamy; and he declared undistinguishing and exterminating war, as a part of his religion, against all the rest of mankind. THE ESSENCE OF HIS DOCTRINE WAS VIOLENCE AND LUST: TO EXALT THE BRUTAL OVER THE SPIRITUAL PART OF HUMAN NATURE...Between these two religions, thus contrasted in their characters, a war of twelve hundred years has already raged. The war is yet flagrant...While the merciless and dissolute dogmas of the false prophet shall furnish motives to human action, there can never be peace upon the earth, and good will towards men"

John Quincy Adams
Sixth President of The United States of America
1830

LMAO right, "we come in peace." blam blam!

It is so sad that people must resort to violence to solve what ever is troubling them. And frankly you can't be be careful these days.

OT I'm watching the Packer-Oakland game and does anyone else think the Raiders look like the Star Wars dark force soldiers?

re: #121 onepistoffyid

I'm with J.Q.A. on this one.

re: #121 onepistoffyid

Wow! Thank you for posting that quote of Adams'.........as to the last line of it, the peace, the good will toward men that does manifest itself on this earth, is not earthly in its inception, therefore Adams' words carry, all the way through....

TO: ec marm
RE: Denver's Muslim Population

When I saw this on the news this morning I discovered that there is a mosque (apparently) on the grounds of Denver International Airport. -- ec marm

There is a SIGNIFICANT Muslim population in Denver, Colorado.

When I lived there, I'd frequent the Middle East markets along Southern Colorado, south of the intersection with I-25.

I recall visiting one such market a couple of days after 9/11. The staff and clientele seemed, to me, to be quietly happy, when I walked in.

Not to say that a Muslim perpetrated this murder, but I wouldn't rule it out at this point.

We need more information.

Regards,

Chuck
[When all the other explanations have been discounted, the one remaining MUST be the truth. -- Sherlock Holmes]

re: #13 ec marm

Fox News keeps referring to a skull cap, but my money is on a kufi -- a traditional Muslim skullcap. Honor killing?

Large skullcap = Muslim
Small skullcap = Jewish

re: #100 EC Marm

This seems to be new:

Peter Warren, the Director of Youth with a Mission Denver says YWAM had just finished a Christmas banquet when the suspect arrived and asked 26-year-old Tiffany Johnson of Minnesota if he could be housed for the evening. When Johnson told him they could not accommodate him, Warren says, the suspect opened fired with an automatic handgun, hitting four people, including Johnson.

[Link: www.9news.com...]

Call me paranoid, but my first thought to that was, what if they had naively said "Sure, we'll find a bunk for you".....? He may have expected that response and planned something far, far worse.

re: #127 Globular Cluster

Honor killing... sounds like a possible angle.

ha! "onepissedoffyid" - nice handle. and yeah that is a great adams quote. speaking of quotes, does anyone know if it's true that churchill's early works are abridged to exclude his longer (unflattering) thoughts on islam? i think someone mentioned that but i haven't been able to confirm.

i'll look up that te lawrence thing - it really cinched it nicely.

re: #115 EC Marm

The Arvada Police web site:
[Link: arvadapd.org...]
Is now calling it a "a dark colored jacket and dark colored beanie AKA skull cap"

I guess that lets this guy off the hook!
Whew!

re: #40 lostlakehiker The thing is, if it isn't a muzlim, people will label us as the blame izlam first crowd. Of course you're going to wonder.

re: #125 Ma Sands

I keep posting quotes like this from Washington, Churchill, Jefferson etc. because I think most westerners have forgotten the historical perspective of this struggle....and these guys had a way with words I could never come close to. Hopefully it will get a lot of "lurkers" thinking also.

re: #132 mjazzguitar

The other thing is that statistically speaking Muslims will commit a certain number of murders in the US (as do all groups). Their "share" of homicides should be around 600 if they are 2.5% of the population.

So we can't yell "Islamism!" every time a Muslim kills someone.

re: #130 kulthur

ha! "onepissedoffyid" - nice handle. and yeah that is a great adams quote. speaking of quotes, does anyone know if it's true that churchill's early works are abridged to exclude his longer (unflattering) thoughts on islam? i think someone mentioned that but i haven't been able to confirm.

i'll look up that te lawrence thing - it really cinched it nicely.

Thanks....it is truly what I am, and I don't see myself calming down anytime soon without serious pharmaceutical intervention.

re: #60 onepistoffyid

re: #39 onepistoffyid

re: #23 Yishai

Now if only Congress would pass some laws making shootings like this illegal.

Better yet, there should be some laws making those guns illegal! That will definitely help.

You're joking right?

I'm waiting for a response Yishai....you can't be serious.

Holy Smokes! It's clearly sarcasm. You'd better send your sarcasm detector back to the shop.

TO: mjazzguitar
RE: Blame-Izlam-First [#132]

The thing is, if it isn't a muzlim, people will label us as the blame izlam first crowd. Of course you're going to wonder. -- mjazzguitar

I think the 24-hour rule should apply in this situation.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Things are never as good nor as bad as first reported. -- Army Staff Puke axiom]

P.S. The police go on 'indicators'. A beard and skull cap are such.

re: #137 Chuck Pelto

9/11 was far, FAR worse than first reported.

re: #136 Alberta Oil Peon

Thank god...I wasn't sure. I assumed the post was from a fellow kosherite, and I know how stupid they usually are when it comes to gun rights...I am a very distinct minority and considered a gun nut by must yids....which always perplexed me. If anybody needs to know how to handle firearms it should be "the chosen" (....to be burned, beaten, poisoned, exiled).....for 4 centuries.

re: #133 onepistoffyid

Yes, history, that way, is no longer taught in most schools.....

agrre: #140 Ma Sands

As a father of a 7th grader, I can tell you you don't know how correct your are, unfortunately.

I just got home from church and saw this. The last words that the pastor said to our congregation was 'go in peace, and be in harmony with God and man."

Why can't we do this? Why the killing? Why?

re: #109 Beholden

He may have glasses or a beard.

Because it's easy to mix those up. "He may have had glasses, or it could have been a beard?"

A good disguise possibility, hairy glasses you wear on your chin. No jury could EVER convict you.

/smart*ss

I read that as "the suspect wore glasses and was bearded, according to some witnesses, but it's possible he wore them as a disguise, and discarded them as soon as he made good his escape."

#58: Oh no...Sand People!

Excellent! :)

It's time for the media to join the rest of the citizenry they consider themselves above and start thinking of the safety of innocent people (not that anybody in the media would ever give a damn about anybody but themselves)

1- Suicide notes from spree murder / suicides should not be made public as a matter of policy. They all say the same crap anyway and it's a way for insignificant, pathetic people to get some attention. Cut this off.

2- This should not be the case if the person is a member of some group. Then it's in the public's best interest to know this person if part of a group so that group or trend can be dealt with. As you can see, the media does this exactly backwards. If it's just some looser, we hear his words over and over like it's a message from God and if it's a muslim terrorist, it gets buried.

3- In the case of serial killers, the media should not assign them names that sound like super villains from the comics like "Zodiac" and "BTK" killer. They should get the FBI profile, find the most un-flattering aspect of his case and call him by a name gleaned from that. They should be referred to as: "The Momma's Boy Killer" or "The Lonely Looser Serial Killer". Ted Kazinski shouldn't have been called the "Unibomber", he should have been called "The Slug" referring to the pullover he wore.

Unfortunately, the media has money to make and if they encourage more killings, hey, more money to be made. I hate to sound cynical, but media people are mostly liberals, and liberals love human suffering and pray only to the almighty dollar and quest for power.

End of rant.

May God receive his servants into his loving arms, and wipe away every tear from their eyes.

re: #137 Chuck Pelto

The police go on 'indicators'. A beard and skull cap are such.

So the perp could be Jewish.

re: #139 onepistoffyid

Are you familiar with Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership?

Oh, and prayers for the victims and their families. I hope they nail this S.O.B., whatever his religion or motivation.

The initial description was of a "skull cap." A skull cap could be a Muslim kufi, a Jewish kipa, a Catholic clergyman's zucchetto, or the tuque currently in fashion among the MTV demographic (U2's The Edge wears a skull cap of this type).

Right now the most logical assumption I can make is that a 20-something, wearing a tight-knit cap because it's cold outside, did the killing. However, I will withhold judgment until more facts are in.

re: #148 mikalm

I am an enthusiastic supporter. They represent .05% of the Jewish population.

Youth with a Mission website

This is quite a large organization, very active in Africa, India, and Indonesia, among others.

Police identified the dead as 26-year-old Tiffany Johnson of Minnesota and 24-year-old Philip Crouse of Alaska. Their hometowns haven't been released. Both were staff members.

Police spokeswoman Susan Medina says two men ages 22 and 23 were wounded and one is in critical condition. Their names haven't been released. They were also staff members.

re: #8 Charles

A skull cap, and possibly a beard.

Equals a ROP-er...Anyone wanna bet?

The woman staffer, identified by police as Tiffany Johnson, 26, of Minnesota, told the man that the youth facility had no place for him. She was about to tell him that she could seek alternatives, when he produced a gun.

"He opened up," said Cheryl Morrison, wife of the senior pastor at Faith Bible Chapel, which leases the space to the Youth With a Mission dorm at 12750 West 63rd Ave. in
Faith Bible Chapel in Arvada. (Post | John Prieto)
Arvada.

The gunshots came through the open doorway, ultimately killing Johnson and Philip Crouse, 24, of Alaska. Two other staffers were injured before the man, described as a white male in his 20s, ran

- Denver Post

re: #153 mama winger

I have an old friend.....used to go to our church......whose name is that girl's......I have an e-mail out to my friend, asking is his daughter is safe.....

This hits very close to home.

re: #156 Ma Sands

re: #153 mama winger

I have an old friend.....used to go to our church......whose name is that girl's......I have an e-mail out to my friend, asking is his daughter is safe.....

Oh no - it says she is from Minnesota.....

Christian young people. Trying to help others. And it's Christmas.

Yeah - we're a real threat aren't we?

re: #22 storagemanager

re: #18 cookielady

Evil knows no race or religion.

There is one religion that seems to be on a first name basis with evil.

Two, depending on whether or not Scientology counts as a religion.

re: #160 George guy

It doesn't. To qualify as a religion the movement must concern itself with "Ultimate Reality". Scientology is concerned with science fiction - literally.

I fear, my friends, that we are seeing copy cat killings because of how much coverage the Omaha mall shooting received. For a sick mind bent on fame, shooting up a missionary center would definitely get you that kind of recognition.

Of course, the media should report these stories, but I want to see coverage of the thousands of instances in which guns are used to protect innocent life by private citizens. Why do we never get to have comment discussions on those stories for a change? (I know why, but a man can dream)

I wonder, though, why did he flee? I am pretty sure the collective media is not reporting some vital details to more fully understanding this situation.

TO: mama winger
RE: Why?

I just got home from church and saw this. The last words that the pastor said to our congregation was 'go in peace, and be in harmony with God and man."

Why can't we do this? Why the killing? Why? -- mama winger

And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man’s hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren. -- Gen 16:12

Hope that helps.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Prophecy, n., Proof.]

re: #156 Ma Sands

Ma, from their website it looks like they are in affiliation with the Lausanne organization:

[Link: www.ywam.org...]

re: #163 Chuck Pelto

Thanks Chuck. My head knows the answer, but my heart can hardly take it in.

OT - Hamas, Fatah trade blame for murder of 14-year-old boy

Khalifeh, who has confessed to murdering the boy, led Hamas policemen to his bedroom, where he had buried the decapitated body. Neighbors alerted the police after noticing a bad smell emanating from Khalifeh's home.

In another development, Hamas accused Fatah of being behind a powerful explosion that occurred outside the headquarters of the Hamas-controlled security forces in Gaza City late Friday.

"I'm glad that the enemy of my enemy and the enemy of my enemy are enemies."

re: #164 mama winger

Ah.....that gives me an idea.....I should contact YWAM directly..........thanks.

TO: mjazzguitar
RE: Jewish? [#147]

re: #137 Chuck Pelto

The police go on 'indicators'. A beard and skull cap are such.

So the perp could be Jewish. -- mjazzguitar

Could be. And if the police are doing their job right, they'll check that possibility as well.

However, I ask you, how many such attacks have Jews made in the US over the last seven years?

I know of one day of attacks by Muslims that killed around 3000 people in the US in the last seven years. And a few others, here and there, to add to that total, since then.

Hope that helps.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[When all the other explanations have been discounted, the one remaining MUST be the truth. -- Sherlock Holmes]

re: #167 Ma Sands

re: #164 mama winger

Ah.....that gives me an idea.....I should contact YWAM directly..........thanks.

Keep me posted.

Praying here.

"I'm glad that the enemy of my enemy and the enemy of my enemy are enemies."

My philosophy has been to let these guys kill each other whenever possible. They get to kill and die, we get to live, everybody's happy.

This is in my neighborhood, it's a middle class suburb where there was another tragic slaying at a Burger King just months ago. Sad.

TO: mama winger
RE: Getting a G[r]asp of It All[#165]

My head knows the answer, but my heart can hardly take it in. -- mama winger

I can understand.

I didn't believe in Satan either...until October 1992, when I encountered one of his lieutenants.

I know better now.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[You haven't 'lived' until you've almost died.]

re: #102 saywhat?

[Link: upload.wikimedia.org...]

re: #172 Chuck Pelto

You're right.

He's real.

And he's prowling the earth, seeking who he may devour.

re: #152 Shiplord Kirel

Youth with a Mission website

This is quite a large organization, very active in Africa, India, and Indonesia, among others.

Some of my mom's friends in Chennai were (and probably still are) active in YWAM.

re: #175 marwan's daughter

That's in India, right?

Suicides are more common during this time of year. I wonder if now the means of suicide will include lone gunman rampages like this and what we saw in Omaha. Terribly sad, and prayers to the families and friends of the victims.

re: #169 mama winger

Will do. Grateful.

re: #177 Sharmuta

Did the gunman commit suicide? I didn't see that.

If it was a muslim shooter, the story will go away really fast. Time to bring back the story about that bad english woman who offends muslims by naming teddy bears after their fake god.

re: #142 mama winger

We can. Probably this is a "they".

re: #172 Chuck Pelto

...I didn't believe in Satan either...until October 1992, when I encountered one of his lieutenants...

Is that a story you'd care to tell................I can see where the telling could be a valuable thing to do.....

re: #161 Pro-Bush Canuck

What is the real difference between Scientology and Islam, apart from 1300 years?

re: #181 Ojoe

re: #142 mama winger

We can. Probably this is a "they".

*sigh*

Yes.

And to think - these young people were trying to reach 'they', and bring them into the family of 'we'.

I have to get off the computer now - Little Winger needs to write a paper.

I will check back on this story later for any further information. Take care all.

Ah well.

I look forward to heaven when the time comes, (and I hope);

because this kind of thing won't happen there.

re: #184 mama winger

No. 186 is in reply to MW 184

re: #174 mama winger

re: #172 Chuck Pelto

You're right.

He's real.

And he's prowling the earth, seeking who he may devour.

It's really a spiritual battle.

Ephesians 6:12
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

What is wrong with young people these days? They can't cope with life so they not only kill themselves but innocent bystanders. The Omaha shooter was 19, apparently this new shooter is 20...What gives?

re: #171 snowkat

This is in my neighborhood, it's a middle class suburb where there was another tragic slaying at a Burger King just months ago. Sad.

The Muslim population of Colorado is 0%, Jewish is 1.7%. So probably either Jewish or posing as a Jew. If posing, the profile fits neo-nazi type. It may also be an isolated Muslim convert from, say, the university posing. If Jewish, well, we got nutjobs too. But a skull cap and beard would make him Hasidic or Orthodox, who typically gather in communities (kosher butcher, shul, etc) -- does your neighborhood have such a community?

re: #188 mjazzguitar

And that brings to mind this thought: this is "our" day to gather together to get energized for responding to those who have not the knowledge of the truth...........a bit different than what happens when the Koran people come out of their worship buildings on Fridays.......

re: #26 cookielady

re: #11 Lucius Septimius

Youth With a Mission is well-known and respected. They don't cause trouble, unless one considers conversions trouble. Can you think of anyone who gets violent about that?

tick, tick, tick...

I'm not a huge fan of details of theology of YWAM, but they are famous and very active. The ex-Muslim, ex-imam, former Al-Azhar lecturer, now author Mark Gabriel (pseudonym) was with YWAM in South Africa early on, after escaping for his life from Egypt.

re: #183 George guy

They are both psuedo-religions, albeit for quite different reasons. Islam is sort of an "inverted atheism", whereas Scientology is just batshit crazy.

re: #186 Ojoe

Ah well.

I look forward to heaven when the time comes, (and I hope);

because this kind of thing won't happen there.

Amen, I like this Shawn McDonald rendition: Somewhere Over the Rainbow

I teach at this school regularly - one of those who dies was in my class last year.

My prayers are with Peter Warren - base leader and the families of those slain and injured.

re: #195 kiwiviv

Ohhhhhhhhhh............praying for you, too.....your peace.....

Thank you Ma Sands. I appreciate that. I am also concerned for a young girl who we befriended in Ireland - she is attending school there right now. It must be hard to go through this when so far from home.

I will be back at this school in Feb. 2008

re: #190 Globular Cluster

The Muslim population of Colorado is 0%, Jewish is 1.7%. So probably either Jewish or posing as a Jew. If posing, the profile fits neo-nazi type. It may also be an isolated Muslim convert from, say, the university posing. If Jewish, well, we got nutjobs too. But a skull cap and beard would make him Hasidic or Orthodox, who typically gather in communities (kosher butcher, shul, etc) -- does your neighborhood have such a community?

There is a large Mosque in Denver which these young people visit as they learn about other religions. I have been there with them - they have some crazy people at that Mosque!

Re: #195 kiwiviv

Wow, I am sorry that this is hitting close to home for you kiwi...Prayers for you and the families of the victims. I hope they find the monster who did this.

Thank you Roscoe - I appreciate that. I am kinda stunned as this all happened when I was at church this morning - only found out when I came home. I have been in contact with some of the folks at the YWAM base.

They have taken all the students up to their other base in the mountains - to be safe and to pray.

Another "Gun Free" zone, I'm sure...

Young white guy with a gun, a skullcap, and a beard? He must be an Orthodox Jew. Either that, or a recent convert to Islam. Which do you think is more plausible?

re: #202 Daryl Herbert

Young white guy with a gun, a skullcap, and a beard? He must be an Orthodox Jew. Either that, or a recent convert to Islam. Which do you think is more plausible?

I do know that this base does a lot of work in Muslim nations - they take these young people to learn about Islam at the local Mosque...so...

re: #163 Chuck Pelto

That prophecy helps, but only insofar as discussing violence by Arabs, not human violence in general--gotta go back to the Garden for that one, which Walid Shoebat's 16-year-old son Theodore does in this video In Satan's Footsteps in noting the interconneciton of all evil.

re: #194 Orde

'Me and you and every living creature"

#201 Another "Gun Free" zone, I'm sure...

"Gun Free Zone" signs should read "We're unarmed. Please don't hurt us."

Give courage and faith to those who are bereaved, that they
may have strength to meet the days ahead in the comfort of a
reasonable and holy hope, in the joyful expectation of eternal
life with those they love. Amen.

re: #207 boiledwombat

Double amen. ("So be it.")

I wonder how Bill O'Reilly is gonna spin this into his phoney "War on Christianity". Tomorrow with no facts in yet he'll be pushing the idea of some crazy "secularist" from SF came in and slaughtered everyone because of their hatred of X-mas

re: #26 cookielady

re: #11 Lucius Septimius

Youth With a Mission is well-known and respected. They don't cause trouble, unless one considers conversions trouble. Can you think of anyone who gets violent about that?

tick, tick, tick...

I'll just be quiet about what I used to do when I was working in YWAM somewhere doing something. A certain demographic in some parts of the world is changing faster than ever though. The Ummah certain demographic group is not as unified or monolithic as advertised.

YWAM is predominantly Evangelical and Charismatic, but it allows other Christians who don't fit that description to join them. I am neither Evangelical nor Charismatic and found that my goals and YWAM's plans differed, so I left them some decade or so ago. They are respectable, honest, and up front about who and what they are.

re: #209 edfeeney

I wonder how Bill O'Reilly is gonna spin this into his phoney "War on Christianity". Tomorrow with no facts in yet he'll be pushing the idea of some crazy "secularist" from SF came in and slaughtered everyone because of their hatred of X-mas

I resent this ridiculous comment - what a messed up thing to say in the face of this news today. I will be looking for your apology tomorrow when you are proven wrong, and O'Reilly says nothing of the sort...and your apology today because some of us knew some of these victims and have the privilege of watching these exceptional young people prepare their lives for greatness - a lesson you could obviously use today!

I grew up in the area and know a lot of people who go to church there and help with YWAM. I've been on the phone all morning and will admit to a certain feeling of relief when I found out the victims were not people I knew.

My prayers to the families of the victims.

re: #203 kiwiviv

I do know that this base does a lot of work in Muslim nations - they take these young people to learn about Islam at the local Mosque...so...

Yeah, I'm normally not one to think "Muslim" on first hearing of such a shooting--for ex, with the latest mall shooting, without hearing more info I never though about it being Islamic violence. But in this case, my first thought was Muslim--not saying the killer is, but that's my first thought, precisely because of the work YWAM does, and also because I thought of Mark Gabriel who was with YWAM in South Africa, where I saw so many "skullcaps" worn by the followers of the very inflammatory late South African Muslim apologist Ahmed Deedat. Guess I'm saying, while I'm not jumping to conclusions, the thought did enter my mind this time because of YWAM's work, that's relevant.

re: #210 David IV of Georgia

...A certain demographic in some parts of the world is changing faster than ever though. The Ummah certain demographic group is not as unified or monolithic as advertised....

I would love to hear more of your thoughts on this.....

Breaking news: Shooting at the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Ted Haggards old stomping grounds. Same description of the suspect, still holed up inside. He's not getting away.

And forget the skull cap linkage, it's probably more of a snowboarder beanie.

re: #215 SnowKat

Please! A link! I know TONS of people there in Colorado Springs! ):

#213 Orde

I hear you - unfortunately, because of the times we live in, we have to think "Muslim" more often than not.

re: #215 SnowKat

Oh shit.

I hope they take him alive so we find out a motive.

9news.com has the breaking story.

re: #215 SnowKat

Could well be about the skullcap, lots of people wear skullcaps, including the Christian artist I linked to in #194, but you don't just forget it, you just consider the possible meanings, one of several being the Islamic connection.

re: #220 techinblack

Thank you.......

COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. — At least four people were shot outside of a Colorado Springs church on Sunday, but it was not immediately known whether the shootings were related to an earlier shooting about 70 miles away, authorities said.

The conditions of the people shot outside the New Life Church were not known, El Paso county Sheriff's Lt. Lari Sevene said.

Two people died and two were wounded earlier Sunday when a gunman opened fire in a dormitory at a missionary training center in the Denver suburb of Arvada.

I'm trying to track the story for Denver MetroBlogs while on the job, but best info is 9news.

#215

This is horrible news. I wonder if the two shootings are linked.

Father - watch over Your children today

The churches are different. One is YWAM the other is new life. Probably unrelated to organization specifics.

re: #121 onepistoffyid

re: #117 kulthur

"The Muslims do not seem to think that Allah can look after these matters itself. Why does all-powerful Allah need people to render judgement here on earth, when presumably Allah is capable of judgement itself (or is it, hard to tell with Islamic "theology")."

Interesting, right? I like the strange "we love death" + "but we must either convert, subjugate, or slaughter the non-believers of the whole world" paradox.

"I heard at a lecture that Christians and Jews see their God as Godly and Goodly and loving, but that Muslims don't. The only quality Allah has got is being Powerful. Sort of like the G'oauld, (sci fi) my metaphor."

In Seven Pillars of Wisdom, TE Lawrence actually does a pretty great job of evoking what it is that's supposed to be cosmical about the concept of Allah. In his discussion of the Bedouin he sort of compares it to the infinite blasted space of the Arabian wastes, undifferentiated land forever beneath a virtually unchanging blue sky. In such an environment the god that makes sense, I guess, is this absolutely abstract, utterly inscrutable being manifested in a brutal, indifferent, inhospitable silence. I forget exactly how he did it, but it made more sense afterward - although it did not make it more attractive.

In the seventh century of the Christian era, a wandering Arab of the lineage of Hagar (mohammed), the Egyptian, combining the powers of transcendent genius, with the preternatural energy of a fanatic, and the fraudulent spirit of an impostor, proclaimed himself as a messenger from Heaven, and spread desolation and delusion over an extensive portion of the earth. Adopting from the sublime conception of the Mosaic law, the doctrine of one omnipotent god; he connected indissolubly with it, the audacious falsehood, that he was himself his prophet and apostle. Adopting from the new Revelation of Jesus, the faith and hope of immortal life, and of future retribution, he humbled it to the dust by adapting all the rewards and sanctions of his religion to the gratification of the sexual passion. He poisoned the sources of human felicity at the fountain, by degrading the condition of the female sex, and the allowance of polygamy; and he declared undistinguishing and exterminating war, as a part of his religion, against all the rest of mankind. THE ESSENCE OF HIS DOCTRINE WAS VIOLENCE AND LUST: TO EXALT THE BRUTAL OVER THE SPIRITUAL PART OF HUMAN NATURE...Between these two religions, thus contrasted in their characters, a war of twelve hundred years has already raged. The war is yet flagrant...While the merciless and dissolute dogmas of the false prophet shall furnish motives to human action, there can never be peace upon the earth, and good will towards men"

John Quincy Adams
Sixth President of The United States of America
1830

More Founding Fathers and Islam

I use Jefferson and Adams to point out to liberals that islam was not hijacked by radicals, but the middle east was.

re: #209 edfeeney

I wonder how Bill O'Reilly is gonna spin this into his phoney "War on Christianity". Tomorrow with no facts in yet he'll be pushing the idea of some crazy "secularist" from SF came in and slaughtered everyone because of their hatred of X-mas

I'm still waiting for your apology - you pathetic, cowardly scumbag! I knew some of those young people!

re: #226 Globular Cluster

The churches are different. One is YWAM the other is new life. Probably unrelated to organization specifics.

YWAM - Youth With A Mission - you are correct this is not a church, but many young people come from the New Life Church to YWAM to receive training for missions work - they ARE related in this way. I will be surprised if these two shootings are not related. It could possibly be the same shooter

TO: Ma Sands
RE: Anecdotal Evidence [#182]

re: #172 Chuck Pelto

...I didn't believe in Satan either...until October 1992, when I encountered one of his lieutenants...

Is that a story you'd care to tell................I can see where the telling could be a valuable thing to do..... -- Ma Sands

I've told the tale before. But it's a long story.

Something to do with an altercation with a practitioner of Wicca, being away from 'home', an attack in the middle of the night by something that looked like an obese monk in a black cowl. Strange happenings all the rest of the day, waking with apprehension early the next morning, a quick prayer for protection, the sudden sound of something like a demented crow having its wings plucked off, sudden silence, a sense of relief and going back to peaceful sleep.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[There ARE things that go 'bump in the night'.]

re: #118 freedomsound

Yo, dude, the Borg also had spherical ships as well which generated temporal tunnels....

re: #214 Ma Sands

re: #210 David IV of Georgia

...A certain demographic in some parts of the world is changing faster than ever though. The Ummah certain demographic group is not as unified or monolithic as advertised....

I would love to hear more of your thoughts on this.....

I've been to church services of 50 or so people who used to belong to the certain demographic. I honestly am not sure where the church was—I was driven there by people who really, really didn't want to attract attention to themselves. I know of other groups of new Christians in that part of the world, but considering circumstances, we avoid discussing details beyond what is necessary and I have friends in harm's way.

re: #230 Chuck Pelto

Yuck. ):

Nevertheless, thank you.

I am glad you are strong of spirit.

re: #219 Rain Patriot

Some folks may consider that a waste of our Taxpayer Dollars on a trial where the defendant (if he is proven to be a Muslim) rants and raves about the JOOOOOOS' control of the money and networks.
GO COPS! Catch the son of a bitch, great! If they end up shooting the son of a bitch, too bad so sad!

re: #172 Chuck Pelto

It's interesting to see something that would make a good scene in a Hollywood movie and then realize that this is no movie...

re: #232 David IV of Georgia

I've probably heard some of them anyway......from the annals of V.O.M., and others such as F.F.F. .....thanks......good to hear from another source! :)

re: #229 kiwiviv

I stand corrected, thanks for the info.

4 people shot in the parking lot at the Church in Colorado Springs - the gunman may have entered the church. Not much more for an update

Where is that coward - #209 edfeeney -

Not guts to back up stupid statement eh?

Sorry - "no guts"

Denver hits the front of yahoo for the second time today.

9news updates with not much of an update.

A second shooting? This is terrible !

The church in Colorado Springs is 70 miles from the YWAM base in Arvada (Denver) - It is possible that this is the same shooter

re: #244 kiwiviv

The church in Colorado Springs is 70 miles from the YWAM base in Arvada (Denver) - It is possible that this is the same shooter

This is very frightening.

re: #245 mama winger

re: #244 kiwiviv

The church in Colorado Springs is 70 miles from the YWAM base in Arvada (Denver) - It is possible that this is the same shooter

This is very frightening.

Yes it is - I knew a couple of the young people shot in the YWAM base - I will be there in Feb. next year. I go and teach at that base regularly. I am waiting to hear about the motive.

re: #246 kiwiviv

I knew a couple of the young people shot in the YWAM base - I will be there in Feb. next year. I go and teach at that base regularly. I am waiting to hear about the motive.

May God have mercy.

I was at church in Longmont (Lifebridge) this morning doing kids ministry. This gives me chills...and not good ones. My church up there is the largest in the City of Longmont...yeesh. Scary days.

TO: Pro-Bush Canuck
RE: Getting a G[r]asp, Part 2 [#193]

They are both psuedo-religions, albeit for quite different reasons. Islam is sort of an "inverted atheism", whereas Scientology is just batshit crazy. -- Pro-Bush Canuck

They are both 'evil'.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Evil has many tools, but a lie is the handle that fits them all.]

re: #248 techinblack

I was at church in Longmont (Lifebridge) this morning doing kids ministry. This gives me chills...and not good ones. My church up there is the largest in the City of Longmont...yeesh. Scary days.

I had one of the most peaceful and beautiful hours in a long time at my church this morning. Now this.

Mama winger -

Amen!

Someone is mad at God and His children over something...but what else is new?

re: #244 kiwiviv

The church in Colorado Springs is 15 miles from where dozens of people live who are friends with my children, in a ministry near Pike's Peak in Manitou Springs.....

Holy crap! Another shooting here in town?

re: #252 Ma Sands

re: #244 kiwiviv

The church in Colorado Springs is 15 miles from where dozens of people live who are friends with my children, in a ministry near Pike's Peak in Manitou Springs.....

Wow - we need to gather those ones who are dear to us, and hug them close today.

re: #250 mama winger

You were being fed the strength to bear this in order to give that strength out to others who need it too..........yes?

re: #252 Ma Sands

re: #244 kiwiviv

The church in Colorado Springs is 15 miles from where dozens of people live who are friends with my children, in a ministry near Pike's Peak in Manitou Springs.....

Oh, God have mercy.

TO: kiwiviv
RE: Perhaps.... [#244]

The church in Colorado Springs is 70 miles from the YWAM base in Arvada (Denver) - It is possible that this is the same shooter. -- kiwiviv

....he's working his way south.

Wait'll he gets to MY place!

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Guns don't kill people. I kill people. -- Airborne-Ranger-Infantry]

re: #254 kiwiviv

re: #252 Ma Sands

re: #244 kiwiviv

The church in Colorado Springs is 15 miles from where dozens of people live who are friends with my children, in a ministry near Pike's Peak in Manitou Springs.....

Wow - we need to gather those ones who are dear to us, and hug them close today.

Yes. Yes.

re: #250 mama winger

I did too. I lead worship up there with the kids. We had way too much fun today at both services. I came out smiling and happy. Such a sad day with this news.

re: #255 Ma Sands

re: #250 mama winger

You were being fed the strength to bear this in order to give that strength out to others who need it too..........yes?

You are a voice of wisdom Ma. I love you, you know.

re: #257 Chuck Pelto

TO: kiwiviv
RE: Perhaps.... [#244]

The church in Colorado Springs is 70 miles from the YWAM base in Arvada (Denver) - It is possible that this is the same shooter. -- kiwiviv

....he's working his way south.

Wait'll he gets to MY place!

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Guns don't kill people. I kill people. -- Airborne-Ranger-Infantry]

;-)

re: #259 techinblack

re: #250 mama winger

I did too. I lead worship up there with the kids. We had way too much fun today at both services. I came out smiling and happy. Such a sad day with this news.

{techinblack}

Oh God,

please don't let the second shooting be a copy cat.

amen

re: #260 mama winger

I know. God gave you to me special. :)

re: #264 Ma Sands

I wish you were here with me.