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Fjordman: Still Obsessing, Still Obfuscating

Sun, Dec 9, 2007 at 10:13:02 am PST

Fjordman is at it again, whining about how trivial and unimportant my posts about the Vlaams Belang are, then writing another thousand words without dealing with a single factual issue. In this one, he completely ignores the fascist symbols in that infamous image of a black rat—in other words, he ignores the entire point of Friday’s post—and instead attacks me for linking to the web site that exposed the uncropped image: Why Does LGF Lend Credibility to Eurabia Deniers?

(Notice that to Fjordman, questioning Bat Ye’or’s Eurabia theory is now labeled “denial,” akin to Holocaust denial. It’s reminiscent of the global warming crowd’s quest to label critics “deniers.” Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with the theory that there is a conspiracy at the highest levels to “Arabize” Europe, it’s a totalitarian tactic to label critics “deniers,” as if the theory were an objective proven fact, above criticism.)

I wouldn’t even bother responding to this, but once again Fjordman’s attack article is appearing at numerous web sites—so it needs to be answered. The enormous effort being put into this deceptive smear campaign is quite remarkable.

Øyvind Strømmen, the other target of Fjordman’s rant, also has a reply to this latest attempt to obfuscate the issues: Hello, Fjordman!

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477 comments

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1 storagemanager  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:15:01am

That thread is very nasty.

2 Pro-Bush Canuck  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:17:16am

You could actually watch this guy come unglued while he was on LGF. A year ago he was still writing fairly penetrating, on-target posts here. Then gradually he began slipping into this psuedo-Millenarianism which featured the USA spiralling into a rapid and total collapse, and other such dystopian nonsense. He strikes me as someone who may have just a touch of clinical paranoia, which is getting worse over time.

3 storagemanager  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:18:26am

Yeh never site facts....just name call...like ATS and KOS kiddies.

4 Wyatt Junker  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:20:32am

All those fancy euro letters that aren't really letters makes me want to bust out all those little cheese knives and place them around my breakfast 'nook'.

5 Pro-Bush Canuck  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:21:41am

re: #4 Wyatt Junker

Heh. They make me want to give away 70% of my income to the Government. And throw my guns in the harbor.

6 debutaunt  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:21:55am

The yelling continues to increase in volume.

7 ElKafir  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:22:32am

OT:
"The theory of evolution is a Christian plot to subvert the morals of Islamic youth."

I couldn't make this stuff up:

www.harunyahya.com/m_about_site.php

Harun Yahya is the pen name of a Turkish Moslem who is getting quite a bit of attention across the Atlantic. He opposes the teaching of evolution because Darwin was "just another Christian crusader" whose lies will turn people away from the true god, Allah. Anybody they hate or disagree with is working against Allah.

Gotta love the irony.

8 FrogMarch  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:24:57am

Sad. Fjordman - sad.

side note: it's too bad we can't have "green" without the "socialism".
socialism sucks.

9 Spiny Norman  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:25:19am

They're still arguing that Islam is a race, I see.

If they tried to intentionally miss the point, I don't see how they'd do a better job.

10 storagemanager  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:25:31am

That thread had 35 comments....wow.

11 Pro-Bush Canuck  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:25:51am

re: #7 ElKafir

Heh. Well I'm a Christian who has no problem with evolutionary biology (considered within the proper context, not as a launching pad for illegitimate metaphysical speculation). I'm also completely in favor of subverting the "morals" of Islamic yoots, insofar as those "morals" involve beheading me and my family.

12 EC Marm  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:26:31am

When I first came to LGF and saw some of Fjordmans' posts I thought he must have been spamming the site with his own fawning sock puppets.
Let him have the banned. They never were anything but trouble, and probably drove away some intelligent discourse.

13 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:27:22am

re: #7 ElKafir
Here's some background on the idiot who wrote it......
Adnan Oktar

14 storagemanager  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:27:30am

Now they are calling us...the anti-jihad...LGF post more on the jihad in one day...then GoV post in a month...get real.

15 zuckerlilly  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:27:33am

Gates of Vienna Requires a Correction From Charles Johnson

Bodissey accuses Charles of a smear campaign.

16 Killian Bundy  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:27:47am
writing another thousand words without dealing with a single factual issue

Only a thousand words?

/to Fjordman, that's like haiku

17 Pro-Bush Canuck  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:28:36am

re: #12 EC Marm

Fjordman: Abode of the Banned

18 Spiny Norman  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:30:27am

The point we're making that Fjordman is deliberately avoiding:

If the Average Joe associates opposing the expansion of radical Islam with White Power racists and old school Fascists, the idea that the Salafi Death Cult is a threat to Western values and basic individual freedoms all over the world will lose out to the "Why do they hate us?" appeasement worms.

OK, so I quoted myself...

19 Yank in the EU  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:30:32am

It is reasonable to ask that the argumentation deal with facts and content, rather than engage in attacks on the person originating the information, especially when the attacks veer into large, other matters such as Global Warming or the Eurabia thesis. Every rational person serious about seeking truth recognizes this, for it is a wrong and illegimate tactic that if take as rule would replace rational discourse with raw animosity. This leads to the clear impression that the purpose of those attacking LGF is precisely to engage in personal attacks and to obfuscate the facts of the matter, such as Fjordman's repeated and explicit defenses of the white nationalist ideology.

20 Yank in the EU  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:31:36am

#19 PIMF: taken

21 LSD  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:31:42am

Oyvind Strommen IS, however, full of shite when he says "Euarabia" is a myth.

Mark Steyn has put that "myth" into the crapper often.

That said, Fjordman needs to answer to the facts presented, not whine about the presenters.

22 mjazzguitar  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:31:47am

re: #7 ElKafir How stupid. Everyone knows the Zionists are behind the theory of evolution. //

23 Gagdad Bob  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:32:00am

Does Fjordman deny that he is a Eurabia denial denier?

24 Pro-Bush Canuck  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:33:18am

re: #18 Spiny Norman

Very well put.

That really is the crux of the matter. Any conceivable "benefit" that is conferred by having these people as our "allies" is drastically outweighed by the PR nightmare that results from an association in the public mind -- whether accurate or not -- between anti-jihadism and old-school white sheet and pointy hat racism.

Americans will not stomach that stuff.

25 guftafs  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:34:55am

Oyvind *gasp* you are leftist tree-hugger! This does it. You're out! :o)

26 storagemanager  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:34:58am

re: #19 Yank in the EU

Fjordman's repeated and explicit defenses of the white nationalist ideology


That's the whole point...and Fjordman and GoV can not deny what they believe....They want a white Europe....the one Hitler dreamed of.

27 mjazzguitar  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:35:03am

"The enemy of my enemy can still be an asshole."

28 NoSpam  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:35:33am

re: #7 ElKafir

I think my head just exploded...

...

Closer to OT. Perhaps I'm just so clueless here, but I'm not understanding why this has become such a controversy. It seems pretty obvious to me that these VBers are pretty whacko (maybe not on the same plane as, say, the Klan, but they're up there) and yet they have this group of otherwise seemingly normal people who actively defend them...

29 NoSpam  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:36:18am

re: #27 mjazzguitar

"The enemy of my enemy can still be an asshole."

I'm stealing this line...

/yoink

30 guftafs  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:36:37am

re: #19 Yank in the EU

... Fjordman's repeated and explicit defenses of the white nationalist ideology.

Must be tough lacking the courage of your own convictions, always having to fake and dissimulate. Poor thing.

31 Killian Bundy  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:38:02am

re: #23 Gagdad Bob

Ooh, a pistol packin' raccoon.

/now we're talkin'

32 Spiny Norman  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:39:32am

re: #21 LSD

Oyvind Strommen IS, however, full of shite when he says "Euarabia" is a myth.

Mark Steyn has put that "myth" into the crapper often.

That said, Fjordman needs to answer to the facts presented, not whine about the presenters.

True. His pointing out of the black rat cartoon's clear fascist symbolism may be a case of "a stopped clock being right twice a day", but shouldn't diminish the fact that he's right about the rat.

33 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:39:45am

re: #19 Yank in the EU

This leads to the clear impression that the purpose of those attacking LGF is precisely to engage in personal attacks and to obfuscate the facts of the matter

When one has nothing left to "defend" one's self with often the response turns into precisely what you've pointed out. If fjordy had a legitimate argument- he'd present it.

34 blue_like_jazz  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:40:01am

Geez, Fjordman... fucking get over yourself already.

35 goddessoftheclassroom  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:40:41am

Good afternoon, Lizards.

I remember feeling intimidated by Fjordman. Now I realize that it wasn't because he was brilliant; it was because it was a bully.

I admit I'm a fragile petal whose feelings are easily hurt, and I do need to toughen up, but debate shouldn't include in attacking the opponent rather than arguing the position.

36 BlueCanuck  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:40:46am

I don't know about this whole Fjordman thing. I mean can't he just move on and do whatever it is that he does? Just saying.

/on the other hand he's starting to peg my creep meter.

37 Pro-Bush Canuck  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:40:57am

re: #31 Killian Bundy

"moments after he arrived via UPS and unpacked"

What a gas!

38 swisscottage  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:41:51am

Forgive my confusion but has Charles actually expressed an opinion on Bat Yeor's views about Eurabia? Personally I find her books to be very intelligent, persuasive and prescient.

39 Pro-Bush Canuck  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:42:15am

re: #36 BlueCanuck

He clearly has some significant "issues" as the kids say. I'm glad there's an ocean separating us.

40 goddessoftheclassroom  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:42:31am

re: #28 NoSpam

re: #7 ElKafir

I think my head just exploded...

...

Closer to OT. Perhaps I'm just so clueless here, but I'm not understanding why this has become such a controversy. It seems pretty obvious to me that these VBers are pretty whacko (maybe not on the same plane as, say, the Klan, but they're up there) and yet they have this group of otherwise seemingly normal people who actively defend them...

I so agree with you. I've been mystified.

41 mean Gene  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:42:39am

Didn't some of these ''white power'' sympathizers also claim this horrid-looking rat is a nice symbol?
Sort of a mascot?
All you did was show an uncropped pic of their own use of their own rat to put it in context.
The facts spoke for themselves.
I'm not quite old enough to have seen Germany's anti-jew propaganda movies that spliced in the rats running along the alleyways with the Jews walking along similar streets, but I did see some of those scenes later.
The rat is not a "Mickey Mouse," type darling.
History cannot be snipped off from it's past like wool slipping over the eyes of those in denial.

42 doriangrey  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:42:43am

re: #27 mjazzguitar

"The enemy of my enemy can still be an asshole."

I prefer "The enemy of my enemy is my enemies enemy, not my friend, whose animosity towards my enemy I will exploit at every possible opportunity"

It's a slight paraphrasing of the tactical strategies of Sun Tzu...But it works for me...

43 Spiny Norman  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:43:29am

re: #28 NoSpam

re: #7 ElKafir

I think my head just exploded...

...

Closer to OT. Perhaps I'm just so clueless here, but I'm not understanding why this has become such a controversy. It seems pretty obvious to me that these VBers are pretty whacko (maybe not on the same plane as, say, the Klan, but they're up there) and yet they have this group of otherwise seemingly normal people who actively defend them...

They're convinced that Doomsday is upon them and they need allies wherever they can find them.

They refuse to see that welcoming in the White Nationalists will hamstring the Anti-Islamization movement quicker than anything the politically-correct, multi-cultural Socialist weasels could ever dream up.

44 Yank in the EU  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:44:50am

re: #26 storagemanager

The defenses of white nationalism are plain enough, but it's a bit too much of a highly emotionally-charged statement to make the Nazi or Hitler accusation. The effect of doing that does not serve us well in terms of careful argument and attention to facts, which is of great importance in such a serious issue involve. Please, let's try to be a little bit detached and not get caught up in overwrought accusations.

45 doriangrey  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:45:31am

re: #43 Spiny Norman

re: #28 NoSpam

re: #7 ElKafirI think my head just exploded...

...

Closer to OT. Perhaps I'm just so clueless here, but I'm not understanding why this has become such a controversy. It seems pretty obvious to me that these VBers are pretty whacko (maybe not on the same plane as, say, the Klan, but they're up there) and yet they have this group of otherwise seemingly normal people who actively defend them...

They're convinced that Doomsday is upon them and they need allies wherever they can find them.

They refuse to see that welcoming in the White Nationalists will hamstring the Anti-Islamization movement quicker than anything the politically-correct, multi-cultural Socialist weasels could ever dream up.

Yup, that seems to be pretty much the case. And sadly they have fallen hook line and sinker for the old saying...The enemy of my enemy is my friend...

46 swamprat  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:45:37am

The claim goes something like this; " Even though we want Europe, or at least our part of it, to be a white mono-culture, we do not qualify as racist because we are willing to tolerate Jews.

for now
47 guftafs  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:46:41am

re: #21 LSD

Oyvind Strommen IS, however, full of shite when he says "Euarabia" is a myth.

Mark Steyn has put that "myth" into the crapper often.

That said, Fjordman needs to answer to the facts presented, not whine about the presenters.

Do you have a link to anything Steyn wrote about it?

48 zuckerlilly  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:47:13am

re: #46 swamprat

perfect.

49 Alouette  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:47:25am

I must have missed it. What was the criticism of Eurabia that led to Charles being called a "denier"?

50 NoSpam  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:47:49am

re: #35 goddessoftheclassroom

Good afternoon, Lizards.

I remember feeling intimidated by Fjordman. Now I realize that it wasn't because he was brilliant; it was because it was a bully.

I admit I'm a fragile petal whose feelings are easily hurt, and I do need to toughen up, but debate shouldn't include in attacking the opponent rather than arguing the position.

I actually prefer internet debate with the creepies instead of face-to-face. I'm not very good with on-the-spot verbal articulation and tend to stutter a lot, whereas if I'm typing I can do a verbal bodyslam. Plus there ends up being a record left for all to see. Fjordman may or may not realize that everything he says will be around for a very long time after this debate gets old and it may end up coming back to bite him.

51 mean Gene  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:48:23am

re: #46 swamprat
You've put it in as small a nutshell as it can go.
Good work.

52 zeppenwolf  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:48:55am

These have got to be the tiniest avatars I've ever seen.

Fun, though...

53 Navy Vet  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:49:32am

Just an Avatar Test. Excuse, please.

54 NoSpam  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:49:39am

re: #43 Spiny Norman

I guess that makes sense, though we're not on full doomsday mode yet. And there are plenty of sane, non-whacko political parties in Europe, so I wonder why these people don't choose a different group.

55 Pro-Bush Canuck  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:51:26am

re: #52 zeppenwolf

Digg uses the same size. Larger avatars work on sites that have perhaps 20-30 posts per page. LGF isn't structured that way, and routinely exceeds 1,500 posts per open thread.

56 NoSpam  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:52:44am

re: #41 mean Gene


Did you ever see the German anti-hitler caroon where he is drawn in characature and his moustashe is drawn as two rats shoved one up each nostil? It may have been a reference to the fascist rats, of course, the rat is a common symbol in propaganda...

57 Former Belgian  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:53:09am

re: #54 NoSpam

re: #43 Spiny Norman

I guess that makes sense, though we're not on full doomsday mode yet. And there are plenty of sane, non-whacko political parties in Europe, so I wonder why these people don't choose a different group.

One reason why we're focusing so much on the Vlaams Belang/Blok is that it's the only one that has major party status on its own electoral turf. The rest are fringe groups indeed.

58 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:53:12am

Drill bra rules!
The Machine Girl

59 Killian Bundy  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:53:47am

OMG, marble time in fantasy football, win or go home, and I just found out that my opponent started Rex Grossman instead of Brett Favre. Bonus: he started Adrian Peterson. No, no, not that one. This Adrian Peterson.

Must be my lucky day.

/still, the Fat Lady hasn't even begun to warm up so I'll refrain from doing the happy dance, for now

60 FrogMarch  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:53:52am

re: #21 LSD

Oyvind Strommen IS, however, full of shite when he says "Euarabia" is a myth.

Mark Steyn has put that "myth" into the crapper often.

That said, Fjordman needs to answer to the facts presented, not whine about the presenters.

It all ties together - doesn't it.


"We're the ones who will change you," the Norwegian imam Mullah Krekar told the Oslo newspaper Dagbladet in 2006. "Just look at the development within Europe, where the number of Muslims is expanding like mosquitoes. Every Western woman in the EU is producing an average of 1.4 children. Every Muslim woman in the same countries is producing 3.5 children." As he summed it up: "Our way of thinking will prove more powerful than yours."

[Link: corner.nationalreview.com...]

61 Charles  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:54:20am

re: #38 swisscottage

Forgive my confusion but has Charles actually expressed an opinion on Bat Yeor's views about Eurabia? Personally I find her books to be very intelligent, persuasive and prescient.

I think Bat Ye'or has done very good work documenting the history of the dhimmitude concept in "Islam and Dhimmitude," and in "Eurabia," sounding a much-needed warning siren on the effect of uncontrolled immigration from Islamic countries.

I do, however, have reservations about her theory that a high-level conspiracy is deliberately, consciously directing the "Arabization" of Europe -- the same kinds of reservations I have with almost any "grand conspiracy" theories.

62 MrScribbler  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:54:31am

With respect -- and verging on OT -- I have to say I am more concerned by the silence attendant upon the unjustified imprisonment of Border Patrol agents Ramos and Compean than I am the antics of VB or other Euro-wackos.

Ramos and Compean have been in prison -- Ramos, at least, in solitary confinement -- for 11 months now. The damage to our system of laws increases daily as perseuctor Johnny Sutton, the sock-puppet of GWB and the open-borders bunch, is allowed to get away with his legal and ethical violations.

Compared to what happens here in the USA, I consider VB of marginal concern, to say the least.

63 blue_like_jazz  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:54:36am

Just went and read the thread...

unbelievable.

Archonix said...
It strikes me that part of the problem is simply that we don't fit his narrative. We, "europeans" of all nationalities, are standing up for our culture rather than simple standing futilely against an invading culture. It might sound like semantics but there's a world of difference. When you stand for something it unites people in a way that simply standing against something never can. The problem is, what we're standing for isn't what Charles wants us to stand for. What we're standing for is our own culture and our own history and the right to celebrate and preserve these things.

Charles is all for preserving western Europe, dumbass... just don't affiliate yourself with Jew-haters in the process!

Why is that so hard to understand?!?

64 NoSpam  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:56:16am

re: #58 Killgore Trout

Drill bra rules!
The Machine Girl


If I click on this, is it going to make my head explode again? Any website with 'loli' in the name can't possibly be good...

65 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:56:55am

re: #64 NoSpam

If I click on this, is it going to make my head explode again?


Yes.

66 NoSpam  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:58:04am

re: #57 Former Belgian

re: #54 NoSpam


re: #43 Spiny Norman

I guess that makes sense, though we're not on full doomsday mode yet. And there are plenty of sane, non-whacko political parties in Europe, so I wonder why these people don't choose a different group.


One reason why we're focusing so much on the Vlaams Belang/Blok is that it's the only one that has major party status on its own electoral turf. The rest are fringe groups indeed.

VB has a lot of people playing the useful idiots...This makes me sad.

67 guftafs  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:58:42am

re: #60 FrogMarch

The quote does not prove a master plan to conjoin the Middle East and Europe instigated by the EU. It only shows the crude mindset of a primitive religious fanatic who only thinks numbers count. As Charles (and myself in previous comments) notes, it smells too much of conspiracy theory. I used to believe it but now the idea makes me wary.

68 Pro-Bush Canuck  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:59:08am

re: #61 Charles

What, you mean you don't believe that Bush and Cheney are trying to take over the Middle East in order to enrich their pals in Big Oil?

C'mon Charles, the writing is on the wall!

69 Pro-Bush Canuck  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:00:06am

re: #64 NoSpam

re: #58 Killgore Trout


Drill bra rules!
The Machine Girl

If I click on this, is it going to make my head explode again? Any website with 'loli' in the name can't possibly be good...

It's pretty funny, actually. Apparently a real movie too.

70 Psaturn  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:00:19am

I think I missed out on the Eurabia conspiracy...could someone explain to me what is exactly the Eurabia conspiracy?

71 Former Belgian  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:01:48am

re: #61 Charles

re: #38 swisscottage

Forgive my confusion but has Charles actually expressed an opinion on Bat Yeor's views about Eurabia? Personally I find her books to be very intelligent, persuasive and prescient.

I think Bat Ye'or has done very good work documenting the history of the dhimmitude concept in "Islam and Dhimmitude," and in "Eurabia," sounding a much-needed warning siren on the effect of uncontrolled immigration from Islamic countries.

I do, however, have reservations about her theory that a high-level conspiracy is deliberately, consciously directing the "Arabization" of Europe -- the same kinds of reservations I have with almost any "grand conspiracy" theories.


Like you, apparently, I'm a great believer in Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained as stupidity."

72 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:01:54am
Somebody should perhaps inform CJ and his followers that the Scandinavian Left is brimming with Hamas-supporters, Arafat-cheerleaders and anti-Israeli and anti-American attitudes, and that they should be a little bit careful with whom they associate or lend credibility to.

I believe fjordy here- he's one of the bigger anti-American attitudes I've come across- thinking we're lacking knowledge and calling us moonbats. I don't think european anti-Americanism is exclusive to the euro-left, but if he wants to play this game then he's a leftist too with his anti-LGF and anti-American attitude. So you see, fjordy- once you start playing this game- others can play too.

Now- how about refuting the symbolism of the rat itself? We'll wait, but we won't hold our breath.

73 NoSpam  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:01:56am

re: #65 Killgore Trout

re: #64 NoSpam


If I click on this, is it going to make my head explode again?

Yes.


It's like the Japanese equivilant of Army of Darkness...

*poof*

74 Psaturn  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:02:03am

re: #61 Charles

Thanks Charles for explaining...there was supposed to be a "high level" conspiracy? From who? From the Muslims themselves?

75 FrogMarch  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:02:11am

re: #67 guftafs

re: #60 FrogMarch

The quote does not prove a master plan to conjoin the Middle East and Europe instigated by the EU. It only shows the crude mindset of a primitive religious fanatic who only thinks numbers count. As Charles (and myself in previous comments) notes, it smells too much of conspiracy theory. I used to believe it but now the idea makes me wary.

Conspiracies aside, as I too am wary of them, the numbers game may not be entirely insignificant.

76 Yank in the EU  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:02:12am

The Eurabia Thesis is a whole other kettle of fish. On that matter, in brief, I think there are two claims one could make that seem obviously true.

(1) There are and have been many politicians on the left in Europe who, out of their ideology of socialism and multiculturalism, view it as strategically in their interest to appease the demands of radical Islam (because it is Western bigotry, oppression, imperialism and imposition of values that makes them angry), to allow great numbers of Muslims to enter Europe in the hopes of peaceful unity with the Arab / Islamic world as allies, and to oppose those who would wage a massive war against radical Muslims (and not just the 'terrorists' who would be treated as criminals by the left) and their ideology.

(2) The demographics problem is real. As Europeans do not marry and do not give birth in high numbers, Muslim immigrants on the contrary are doing exactly that. It is not mean to say this; it is independent fact, but one is charged with 'racism' in Europe to say it publically. Take a good look at the banlieus around Paris, listen to the call to prayer in Brussels-Molenbeek, and notice large groups of radical Muslims in and around London. In time, as the numbers of radicals among the Muslim communities approach a state of 'critical mass', Europe is going to find itself, unexpectedly perhaps, in the midst of a war for its survival.

77 realwest  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:03:00am

re: #53 Navy Vet No need to apologize; we've all done those avatar tests!
And thank you for your service.

78 Pro-Bush Canuck  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:03:41am

re: #70 Psaturn

I think I missed out on the Eurabia conspiracy...could someone explain to me what is exactly the Eurabia conspiracy?

The notion that there is a high-level conspiracy among Europeans to create a super-state comprising the (dying) European peoples and the (multiplying) Arab peoples. Deals have allegedly been struck to the effect that Islam will have a central place in Europe, in exchange for access to oil and the formation of a common bloc aligned aginast the American hegemon.

Or something like that.

79 mean Gene  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:03:50am

OT Fox News better fire somebody really soon!
They just went to Johnathan Seri (sp?) at an arena for Obama with Oprah and somebody else's voice at Fox was heard.
That man was making monkey noises!
Ooo! Oooo! Ooo!
Aaaah! Aaaaah! Aaaa!
Over and over again!
Awful!
A head needs to roll and fast.

80 debutaunt  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:04:00am

re: #58 Killgore Trout

Drill bra rules!
The Machine Girl



I used to like tempura and sushi.

81 poteen  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:04:03am

re: #58 Killgore Trout

Drill bra rules!
The Machine Girl

And we get "Lions for Lambs".

I want that at my local cinema.

82 Former Belgian  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:05:10am

re: #72 Sharmuta

Somebody should perhaps inform CJ and his followers that the Scandinavian Left is brimming with Hamas-supporters, Arafat-cheerleaders and anti-Israeli and anti-American attitudes, and that they should be a little bit careful with whom they associate or lend credibility to.

I believe fjordy here- he's one of the bigger anti-American attitudes I've come across- thinking we're lacking knowledge and calling us moonbats. I don't think european anti-Americanism is exclusive to the euro-left, but if he wants to play this game then he's a leftist too with his anti-LGF and anti-American attitude. So you see, fjordy- once you start playing this game- others can play too.

Now- how about refuting the symbolism of the rat itself? We'll wait, but we won't hold our breath.

On the (outdated) "left-right" scale, anti-Americanism in Europe follows an inverted Laffer curve: rabid at the far left and the extreme right, hitting a minimum in the center-right.

83 mean Gene  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:06:22am

re: #56 NoSpam
No, I hadn't.
Interesting sounding, though.

84 Yank in the EU  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:06:31am

re: #71 Former Belgian

Like you, apparently, I'm a great believer in Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained as stupidity."


Yes, well said.

85 Killian Bundy  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:07:19am

re: #61 Charles

I think Bat Ye'or has done very good work documenting the history of the dhimmitude concept in "Islam and Dhimmitude," and in "Eurabia," sounding a much-needed warning siren on the effect of uncontrolled immigration from Islamic countries.

The "game" is far from over. Europe is not necessarily doomed by any stretch of the imagination. Then again, Fjordman seriously commented here that the United States was, in his opinion, on the verge of an all out, insurrection in the streets, Katy bar the door, civil war.

/that's the exact moment I knew he had jumped the shark and he was incapable of jumping back

86 Whiterasta  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:09:36am

German official seeks ban on Scientology

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

I'm not aware that Scientology beheads anyone who leaves. They don't practice Honor killings, infibulation or practice incest.

If the Germans wanted to ban a death cult, I can think of one that deserves banning.

(Like that's ever going to happen!)

87 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:10:07am

re: #69 Pro-Bush Canuck

Here's the movie poster. I'm searching to see if it's out yet......

88 zombie  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:11:10am

re: #7 ElKafir

OT:
"The theory of evolution is a Christian plot to subvert the morals of Islamic youth."

I couldn't make this stuff up:

www.harunyahya.com/m_about_site.php

Harun Yahya is the pen name of a Turkish Moslem who is getting quite a bit of attention across the Atlantic. He opposes the teaching of evolution because Darwin was "just another Christian crusader" whose lies will turn people away from the true god, Allah. Anybody they hate or disagree with is working against Allah.

Gotta love the irony.

I used to post about the Harun Yahya movement here a few years ago and it caused such furious arguments that I stopped even mentioning it.

89 guftafs  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:11:24am

re: #76 Yank in the EU


(2) The demographics problem is real. As Europeans do not marry and do not give birth in high numbers, Muslim immigrants on the contrary are doing exactly that. It is not mean to say this; it is independent fact, but one is charged with 'racism' in Europe to say it publically. Take a good look at the banlieus around Paris, listen to the call to prayer in Brussels-Molenbeek, and notice large groups of radical Muslims in and around London. In time, as the numbers of radicals among the Muslim communities approach a state of 'critical mass', Europe is going to find itself, unexpectedly perhaps, in the midst of a war for its survival.

I believe that the problem is at root not demographical but intellectual. It is our not having any distinct Western values to defend anymore that these pockets of hostile groups are sprouting, and are allowed to thrive. If we succeed in re-establishing freedom, individualism and reason as the core values of the West, most of the assimilation problems would in time dissipate, I believe. Muslims are human beings too. If given the choice they will choose life over death, Britney Spears over Ms Burqua, Shakespeare over the Koran. What else is the cause of honour killings? The primitive's response to the unspeakable audacity of women wanting to live as individuals.

90 Killian Bundy  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:12:18am

re: #87 Killgore Trout

Kataude mashin gâru

/bookmark IMBD for all things movie

91 Pro-Bush Canuck  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:12:19am

re: #85 Killian Bundy

The one thing that few people take into account is that explosive population growth is tapering of globally. Mexico for example will actually begin to contract within 10 years, and that will drastically reduce the illegal immigration problem in the US as labor becomes scarce at home.

Those Muslims in Europe are reproducing at a high rate now, but there is no reason to believe that will necessarily continue. Muslims in Canada tend to be far more integrated (less ghettoized) than those in Europe, and while their family sizes are larger than the typical atheist Canadian, they aren't excessively large.

It simply becomes too expensive to have 5-6 kids in these societies. Simple economics will eventually curb the explosive growth patterns, and this is something I believe Mark Steyn and others do not understand well enough.

92 Pro-Bush Canuck  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:13:05am

re: #87 Killgore Trout

"Coming In 2010"

Looks like a genre classic!

93 The Other Les  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:13:14am

re: #7 ElKafir

OT:
"The theory of evolution is a Christian plot to subvert the morals of Islamic youth."

I couldn't make this stuff up:

www.harunyahya.com/m_about_site.php

Harun Yahya is the pen name of a Turkish Moslem who is getting quite a bit of attention across the Atlantic. He opposes the teaching of evolution because Darwin was "just another Christian crusader" whose lies will turn people away from the true god, Allah. Anybody they hate or disagree with is working against Allah.

Gotta love the irony.

If there was such a thing as a black hole of stupid it would be called Islam.

Or socialism.

94 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:13:19am

It's band-spankin'-new......
Disfigured School Girl + Heavy Weaponry = First MACHINE GIRL Trailer!

A rough trailer was shown to visitors of the American Film Market but that cut wasn’t quite polished enough in the minds of the producers and so was never made available to the public. The first proper trailer was completed just yesterday and you’ll find it in the Twitch Video Player, embedded just below the break!

I can't wait. Possibly the best movie ever.

95 Pickle  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:13:30am

Why does Fjordman not understand that failing to deal honestly with accusations of white nationalist associations lends credibility to "Eurabia deniers"?

96 guftafs  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:13:48am

re: #85 Killian Bundy

re: #61 Charles

I think Bat Ye'or has done very good work documenting the history of the dhimmitude concept in "Islam and Dhimmitude," and in "Eurabia," sounding a much-needed warning siren on the effect of uncontrolled immigration from Islamic countries.

The "game" is far from over. Europe is not necessarily doomed by any stretch of the imagination. Then again, Fjordman seriously commented here that the United States was, in his opinion, on the verge of an all out, insurrection in the streets, Katy bar the door, civil war.

/that's the exact moment I knew he had jumped the shark and he was incapable of jumping back

Everything is upside down, when you enter the Fjordman Zone na-na-na-na na-na-na-na ....

97 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:14:12am

re: #90 Killian Bundy

Cool!

98 marwan's daughter  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:14:32am

re: #84 Yank in the EU

re: #71 Former Belgian

Like you, apparently, I'm a great believer in Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained as stupidity."


Yes, well said.

Does Bat Ye'or really frame the whole problem as a Protocols-of-the-Elders-of-Zion type conspiracy, or have Euro-fascists read their own agenda into her writings?

99 NoSpam  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:14:46am

re: #89 guftafs


Britney Spears over Ms Burqua,


As a rational individual of the West, can I say 'neither?'

100 Spiny Norman  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:15:04am

re: #86 Whiterasta

German official seeks ban on Scientology

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

I'm not aware that Scientology beheads anyone who leaves. They don't practice Honor killings, infibulation or practice incest.

If the Germans wanted to ban a death cult, I can think of one that deserves banning.

(Like that's ever going to happen!)

Now, I've always been convinced Scientology was an elaborate tax dodge, but come on! Ferchrissakes, WTF is wrong with some people?

101 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:15:04am

re: #88 zombie

The times have changed. It's a much easier topic to discuss these days.

102 realwest  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:15:09am

re: #62 MrScribbler With all due respect, and acknowledging that I haven't followed the case against them very closely, when you say: "Johnny Sutton, the sock-puppet of GWB and the open-borders bunch, is allowed to get away with his legal and ethical violations." I would appreciate it very much if you could provide some detail as to his legal and ethical violations. We are not unfamiliar with prosecutors who violate legal and ethical requirements (see, e.g., former prosecutor and former attorney at law, Mr. Nifong).
Perhaps, with some detail concerning Mr. Sutton's activities, we here in North Carolina could offer up some assistance.

103 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:15:40am

re: #82 Former Belgian

He has posts here on this blog, besides the two I linked, that make it abundantly clear his knowledge and understanding of America is lacking- severely. He wants to use Charles' link to another blog as a "guilt by association" styled smear to claim Charles is a Eurabia denier, but fjordy's anti-Americanism comes from his own mouth. It's interesting that he was so keen on an alliance with Americans when he clearly holds Americans in contempt.

104 Pro-Bush Canuck  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:16:09am

re: #88 zombie

Well if you were using it as a way to attack the beliefs of evangelical Christian Lizards then...

Wouldn't bother me in the least though. I have no problem reconciling Christianity with evolutionary biology.

105 marwan's daughter  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:16:30am

re: #99 NoSpam

re: #89 guftafs


Britney Spears over Ms Burqua,


As a rational individual of the West, can I say 'neither?'

Neither whores nor submissive.

106 Promethea  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:16:41am

re: #18 Spiny Norman

The point we're making that Fjordman is deliberately avoiding:

If the Average Joe associates opposing the expansion of radical Islam with White Power racists and old school Fascists, the idea that the Salafi Death Cult is a threat to Western values and basic individual freedoms all over the world will lose out to the "Why do they hate us?" appeasement worms.
OK, so I quoted myself...

Very well stated. Choosing between Islamisms and White Racism is no choice at all. I doubt seriously that Bat Ye'or supports a movement devoted to white national "purity."

107 guftafs  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:17:13am

re: #99 NoSpam

re: #89 guftafs


Britney Spears over Ms Burqua,


As a rational individual of the West, can I say 'neither?'

Yes, I would too. Just an example. :o)

108 zombie  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:17:17am

re: #13 Killgore Trout

re: #7 ElKafir
Here's some background on the idiot who wrote it......
Adnan Oktar

I actually went to an Islamic creationist presentation by Harun Yahya, but never made a report out of it. Due to security concerns. This was a couple years ago. (I was the only non-Muslim in the room, but I'm not sure that I "passed." I left early due to escalating suspicious glances. The subsequent report was suppressed.)

The perils of going under cover!

109 NoSpam  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:17:32am

re: #86 Whiterasta

German official seeks ban on Scientology

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

I'm not aware that Scientology beheads anyone who leaves. They don't practice Honor killings, infibulation or practice incest.

If the Germans wanted to ban a death cult, I can think of one that deserves banning.

(Like that's ever going to happen!)


The German gov't can't see the forest for the trees and hasn't been able to do so in years. They focus on little, insignificant things and hound them to death while the big stuff lumbers by and thrashes about Godzilla-style. By the time they notice the giant footprints and smashed cars, it will be too late.

110 Promethea  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:17:36am

Oops..."Islamism"

111 The Other Les  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:18:21am

re: #61 Charles

I do, however, have reservations about her theory that a high-level conspiracy is deliberately, consciously directing the "Arabization" of Europe -- the same kinds of reservations I have with almost any "grand conspiracy" theories.


One need not posit a conspiracy to explain something caused by some folks simply being stupid.

112 marwan's daughter  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:18:41am

re: #106 Promethea

re: #18 Spiny Norman

The point we're making that Fjordman is deliberately avoiding:

If the Average Joe associates opposing the expansion of radical Islam with White Power racists and old school Fascists, the idea that the Salafi Death Cult is a threat to Western values and basic individual freedoms all over the world will lose out to the "Why do they hate us?" appeasement worms.

OK, so I quoted myself...

Very well stated. Choosing between Islamisms and White Racism is no choice at all. I doubt seriously that Bat Ye'or supports a movement devoted to white national "purity."

She and other anti-jihadi bloggers in Europe and America do support them. They're that desperate. Some bloggers have shown their true racist side, but most of the useful idiots supporting the Euro-fascists are just desperate.

113 swamprat  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:18:57am

"uncle ackbar is (a loon..... an old fogey...... nutty as a fruitbar) from the old country, mohammed. He's not home, now. Bring in your american friends and I will get out the icecream and cake."

We are Americans. This is what we do. It is destroying the hate that others are counting on.

114 marwan's daughter  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:19:11am

re: #111 The Other Les

re: #61 Charles

I do, however, have reservations about her theory that a high-level conspiracy is deliberately, consciously directing the "Arabization" of Europe -- the same kinds of reservations I have with almost any "grand conspiracy" theories.


One need not posit a conspiracy to explain something caused by some folks simply being stupid.

Thomas Sowell said something like that.

115 Yank in the EU  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:19:38am

re: #89 guftafs


It is our not having any distinct Western values to defend anymore that these pockets of hostile groups are sprouting, and are allowed to thrive.

I agree with you that values and ideas are major, major parts of the problem. Nihilism, to give it one word. But this is a question of causality, origin, and explanation; the demographics claim simply points to the sheer, brute fact of numbers. I would have a hard time seeing how this claim can be denied. One can easily admit that there is a numbers, birthrate issue and also that the solutions and explanations you give are also true. To be clear, the demographics issue will only come into effect many years down the road; Europe is not at war with its Muslims now. But it is what Europe does now that will determine whether it survives in decades to come.

116 BlueCanuck  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:20:35am

re: #87 Killgore Trout

Oh snap out in 2010. :(

117 AuldTrafford  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:21:13am

re: #102 realwest

I think one of the biggest complaints about the prosecution was its reliance upon the testimony of an acknowledged criminal - the drug smuggler "feloniously assaulted" by the officers. The "witness" was given a free pass across the border (and for the offense being committed at the time of the incident) so he could testify (and, I think, he has been arrested, again, since - not sure about that).

Perhaps more a question of the prosecutor's priorities than strict questions of "legality". "Ethics" is more an issue for the beholder.

118 The Other Les  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:22:04am

re: #114 marwan's daughter

re: #111 The Other Les

re: #61 Charles

I do, however, have reservations about her theory that a high-level conspiracy is deliberately, consciously directing the "Arabization" of Europe -- the same kinds of reservations I have with almost any "grand conspiracy" theories.


One need not posit a conspiracy to explain something caused by some folks simply being stupid.

Thomas Sowell said something like that.

That's probably where I got it from.

119 NoSpam  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:23:27am

re: #116 BlueCanuck

re: #87 Killgore Trout

Oh snap out in 2010. :(


That's probably for a US or 'international' release. If the Japanese horror film market is anything like the anime market, you should be able to find a fansub of this movie much sooner than that if you really want to see it.

120 formercorpsman  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:24:45am

One contradiction for the conspiracy theory, is our involvement in Kosovo.

I have tried to to study the history of this, (from all points of view) and knowing who we allied with does not support the idea of Europe welcoming islamic immigration to thwart our hegemony.

Our actions certainly gave a foothold via the Dayton Agreement.

121 Yank in the EU  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:24:49am

re: #98 marwan's daughter

I read Eurabia years ago, and my impression was that she is extremely cautious and intelligent about asserting conspiracy-theory type of nonsense. My sense is that she is agreeing with the basic points of our claims about Europe's appeasment / immigration issues, while at the same time demonstrating that in some cases it is worse than we think -- for certain European politicians it is in fact a conscious strategy to ally with the Islamic world against capitalism and 'American-Israeli hegemony'. I don't at all consider myself an expert on this, and am willing to listen to well-documented positions.

122 BlueCanuck  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:25:59am

re: #119 NoSpam

True, nothing beats cool Japanese films with subtitles.

123 Promethea  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:26:45am

re: #43 Spiny Norman

They refuse to see that welcoming in the White Nationalists will hamstring the Anti-Islamization movement quicker than anything the politically-correct, multi-cultural Socialist weasels could ever dream up.

Kinda like me seeing Hillary kiss Suha. I'll never forget this sight. That's when I started taking a closer look at Hillary.

Of course, seeing Laura Bush in a burkha and learning that Condoleezza Rice made the Jews go into a conference by the back door didn't make me happy either.

Some images just never go away.

124 guftafs  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:29:09am

re: #115 Yank in the EU

re: #89 guftafs


It is our not having any distinct Western values to defend anymore that these pockets of hostile groups are sprouting, and are allowed to thrive.

I agree with you that values and ideas are major, major parts of the problem. Nihilism, to give it one word. But this is a question of causality, origin, and explanation; the demographics claim simply points to the sheer, brute fact of numbers. I would have a hard time seeing how this claim can be denied. One can easily admit that there is a numbers, birthrate issue and also that the solutions and explanations you give are also true. To be clear, the demographics issue will only come into effect many years down the road; Europe is not at war with its Muslims now. But it is what Europe does now that will determine whether it survives in decades to come.

Yes, I agree with the last sentence. The potential for bloodsheding is considerable, I would have to say. On the one hand, the leftist axis spouting the destructive tenets of post-modern sh*te, willingly blinding themselves and the populace to an emerging threat, on the other hand the white nationalist axis misidentifying the problem as one pertaining to race. But since the white nationalist axis are the only ones addressing the issue head on I fear they will gain ground and influence. And the Muslims themselves.

Pick your side, make your stand, all sides wrong. All kinds of infighting and strange alliances possible. Welcome to Europe!

125 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:29:35am

re: #115 Yank in the EU

Europe is not at war with its Muslims now.

But....but....but that's what some europeans posting on this blog have told me, as well as others sympathetic towards that line of thinking. They use it to rationalize vlaams belang, but you're telling me they are exaggerators, using it as an excuse for excepting this party as a legitimate partner in fighting islamofascism. I believe you, but how do you combat the mentality of those willing to cling to disinformation because it rationalizes their position?

126 NoSpam  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:29:50am

About all the Eurabia stuff...When I look at Europe, I tend not to see 'Eurabia,' and see more of a generic "going off the rails on a crazy train.*" They are having a massive societal meltdown, but I don't think Islamism will be what replaces the old European values. At the rate the Islamofruits are going, their 'value system' of self-segregation and bigotry is doomed to failure as well.

I don't know what Europe will look like in a generation or so. I'm guessing the whole place will start to look like the old Soviet Union in the 80's, becase with the exception of the bread lines, it sort of looks that way already...

*That song is perfect for this situation. Plus its catchy

127 NoSpam  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:30:26am

PIMF, should have said 'meat lines.' Bread lines are from the Depression...

128 Killian Bundy  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:33:24am

re: #123 Promethea

Kinda like me seeing Hillary kiss Suha. I'll never forget this sight.

/it's a classic

129 BlueCanuck  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:33:54am

re: #127 NoSpam

Bread, meat what's the difference? They will probably lining up for both. And to top it off as socialists they will go begging to the U.S.A for handouts to help their poor underclasses.

/hey it could happen.

130 Promethea  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:34:01am

re: #46 swamprat

The claim goes something like this; " Even though we want Europe, or at least our part of it, to be a white mono-culture, we do not qualify as racist because we are willing to tolerate Jews.


for now

Practicing Jews will always be different from their surrounding cultures because Jewish practices are unique to Jews. Furthermore, practicing Jews are intermixed with all racial types.

Non-practicing Jews tend to fade into the general population; hence the existence of millions and millions of Americans and Europeans with a Jewish grandmother or grandfather.

131 oslogin  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:34:07am

"Somebody should perhaps inform CJ and his followers that the Scandinavian Left is brimming with Hamas-supporters, Arafat-cheerleaders and anti-Israeli and anti-American attitudes, and that they should be a little bit careful with whom they associate or lend credibility to".

Did Fjordman write this, and mean it as an attack on me? In that case, let me point out that it is blatantly dishonest. I have repeatedly attacked those on the Norwegian Left who support Hamas and that I in no way cheer for Arafat. Let me be rub my own back and quote myself (!):

Akerhaug does say that it is a bad day for Norwegian peace profiters, an amusing term, but who else might this be a bad day for? Is it possible that this is a bad day for - say - Palestinian feminists? One of them was interviewed on Belgian TV recently, and she did not seem thrilled with the idea of having Hamas in power. Perhaps Akerhaug needs to reminded of how a Hamas “morality squad” shot 19-year old Yousra al-Azam to death after she had sat at the beach with her husband-to-be and another couple?

Are Palestinian Liberals having a great day today? How about Palestinian Christians? In fact, the only good news about this election is not that Hamas won, but that Fatah lost. And that is hardly marvellous news seen in context.

Argh.

re: #74 Psaturn

The Muslims are definitely involved in the Eurabia conspiracy theory, but so is - the European Union itself. And the Vatican is involved, too! To my great disappointment, Illuminati isn't. I mean: what's a good conspiracy theory without the Illuminati?

Fallaci summed it up like this (this is my translation from Norwegian, not the English translation, which I do not have availalble):

"The truth, which the responsible have kept silent about as if it was a state secret, is that it is the largest conspiracy of modern history. The most frightening complot that our world - through ideological fraud, cultural piggery, moral prostitution and slippery tricks - have ever created. It is Europe with its' bankers, who have created the farce called the European Union, [etc]".

There is no other way to interpret Bat Ye'or than that the creation of Eurabia is planned on a high level, by people who have kept this a secret; and that leading politicians (of various political colour) must have been involved. That is a conspiracy theory, regardless of how one views immigration in general, Muslim immigration specifically, jihadism as an ideological current or Islam as a religion.

132 MrScribbler  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:34:15am

re: #117 AuldTrafford

It goes deeper than that. Sutton (and Debra Kanof, the pitbull who did the day-to-day prosecution) convinced the judge to hold back material facts about the illegal-alien drug smuggler. What the jury heard was that he was just running this one-time load of drugs to help his poor mother, when they knew damn well that he was an experienced drug-runner.

The illegal, Osvaldo Aldrete-Davila, is in fact in jail now for bringing in loads of dope while carrying the get-into-the-USA-free pass Sutton procured for him.

There are plenty of instances in which Sutton lied, obstructed justice and committed ethical breaches to make sure Ramos and Compean went to jail.

IMO, he should be behind bars, and Ramos and Compean should be free.

And since Sutton is Jorge Bush's "great buddy" and is supported by him, well, QED. If there was any justice in this case, two jail cells would be empty and available for occupancy, and I can suggest two people who should fill them.

133 zeppenwolf  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:34:43am

re: #86 Whiterasta

I'm not aware that Scientology beheads anyone who leaves.

No, but they are reported to do things to those wishing to leave like lock you in a room until you "come to your senses".

Reporting from here in Hollywood, all I can say for sure is that whatever they're doing seems to be a hell of a good money maker-- they've got buildings everywhere. I can't walk down Hollywood Blvd without them assaulting me to take one of their damn "personality tests" or be given "free tickets" to their stupid "museum".

If everything they do is legal, it's because they've taken pains to stay just barely on this side of the law. But I don't think there's any denying that it's basically a huge scam, and I don't fault the Germans for being dubious. Alot of people spend years in that "church", spend all their money, and finally get disillusioned and bugger out only to find themselves older and poorer. But hey-- if it's legal, well... ?

If the Germans wanted to ban a death cult, I can think of one that deserves banning.

Well I'm certainly with ya there.

134 konservo  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:37:08am
The website quoted by LGF’s latest post is run by the Norwegian Leftist Øyvind Strømmen. Mr. Strømmen called me a Fascist long before the current debate began. He has also stated that Bat Ye’or’s writings about Eurabia are “conspiracy theories,”

-fj

From what I understand, the 'Eurabia' thesis is, in fact, a conspiracy theory.

"Over the years, Euro-Arab collaboration developed at all levels: political, economic, religious and in the transfer of technologies, education, universities, radio, television, press, publishers, and writers unions."
- Bat Ye'or [Link: www.nationalreview.com...]

Fallaci explicitly uses the term to describe it:

These [European and Arab] entities, Fallaci says, not mincing her words, were the official perpetrators “of the biggest conspiracy that modern history has created,” and Eurabia was their house organ.

[Link: www.laweekly.com...]

Whether or not it is as malicious as some believe, is another question, and just because, as fjordman states,

British Foreign Secretary David Miliband... said in November 2007 that the European Union should expand to include Middle Eastern and North African countries


doesn't mean that his intent is to establish Shariah in Britain.

I agree with Øyvind Strømmen on the point that, although Ye'or is certainly not a fascist, her ideas can be used and abused by fascists to elicit a reaction, and ultimately gain support from frightened Europeans.

This is not a critique of her thesis, and a don't agree with Strømmen that Ye'or is to blame for the fascists abusing her work. However, it is accurate to say that she provides part of the Eurofascist mythos.

135 NoSpam  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:37:21am

re: #129 BlueCanuck

re: #127 NoSpam

Bread, meat what's the difference? They will probably lining up for both. And to top it off as socialists they will go begging to the U.S.A for handouts to help their poor underclasses.

/hey it could happen.


What is five miles long and feeds on potatos?

--The line in front of a Moscow butcher shop

...

What will happen if the Five Year Plan format is applied to the Sahara Desert.

--Nothing for the first couple of years, but soon a shortage of sand will develop.

...

/Jokes from a book on Soviet life in the Glasnost years.

136 Yank in the EU  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:40:21am

re: #124 guftafs


On target.

re: #125 Sharmuta

Yes, it all requires careful dissection to percieve the truth of matters here. Is the situation growing dire in European countries - meaning requiring urgent action to stop creeping Islamization? Yes, there is no doubt that certain trends must be stemmed and European cultures must strengthen themselves, or face fading away into history. But, as you say, it's not even near the point of large percentages of the populice being Muslim, wide-scale warfare, or threats to the people's basic safety in the vast majority of cases, which is quite contrary to the impression of those who would use that "fear and panic" button to claim uniting with white nationalist thugs is justified.

137 guftafs  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:40:46am

re: #134 konservo


From what I understand, the 'Eurabia' thesis is, in fact, a conspiracy theory.

....

Good point.

138 NoSpam  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:41:19am

Later, peeps... :)

139 Spiny Norman  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:41:47am

re: #117 AuldTrafford

re: #102 realwest

I think one of the biggest complaints about the prosecution was its reliance upon the testimony of an acknowledged criminal - the drug smuggler "feloniously assaulted" by the officers. The "witness" was given a free pass across the border (and for the offense being committed at the time of the incident) so he could testify (and, I think, he has been arrested, again, since - not sure about that).

Perhaps more a question of the prosecutor's priorities than strict questions of "legality". "Ethics" is more an issue for the beholder.

Esculpatory evidence was kept from the jury, such as the alleged "victim", Osvaldo Aldrete-Davila's subsequent arrest for transporting another truckload of weed across the border, as well as witness testimony that Davila was always armed at all times (shooting a big hole in Sutton's claim that the "victim" was "clearly" unarmed and that Ramos and Compeon were never in any danger), and many other bits of pertinent information about Border Patrol Incident reporting (only field supervisors are supposed to make written reports - Ramos' and Compeon's supervisor failed to do so, but was given immunity to testify against his subordinates) that were also kept from the jury. When interviewed after the trial, every one of the jurors said that, had they heard any of that, they never would have voted for conviction. Sutton has since used every avenue at his disposal to delay any appeal hearing, such as withholding the trial trascripts for months. There are also credible claims that the Mexican government put pressure on the Bush Administration to make this persecution [sic] a priority.

That whole travesty was political from the very beginning.

140 Spiny Norman  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:43:21am

And what Mr Scribbler said...

141 irish rose  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:43:51am

Thank you, Charles.

142 oslogin  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:45:16am

"This is not a critique of her thesis, and a don't agree with Strømmen that Ye'or is to blame for the fascists abusing her work".

That's cool. I don't know if I, me and myself would agree with me on that point, either. I blame her for being wrong. Not for being used by people that are even more wrong.

"However, it is accurate to say that she provides part of the Eurofascist mythos".

Thanks!

Øyvind

143 Promethea  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:45:22am

re: #61 Charles

I do, however, have reservations about her theory that a high-level conspiracy is deliberately, consciously directing the "Arabization" of Europe -- the same kinds of reservations I have with almost any "grand conspiracy" theories.

I've had the same doubts about her grand conspiracy theory. A conspiracy is very hard to maintain over time. Yet, it's extremely easy to see how the zeitgeist can change over time. That's what I've observed since I became an anti-Islamist bucking the LLL establishment (i.e. my co-workers, friends, and family).

Could one say that there was a conspiracy to make blue Americans become docile anti-American pacifists? I doubt it. And yet there they are in full force, especially in the media and the school systems.

144 JHW  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:49:27am

The enemies of democracy are tri-fold........radical Islam, the radical left, and yes, there are enemies on the right that wish us ill, especially the USA and the English-speaking democracies.

Check out this site of the far right parties in Europe, go carefully through the archives. The same old runes and Odin Cross are everywhere, but what is of some significance is the hatred of "US imperialism", just like the far left.
European National Front

für den gemeinsamen europäischen Kampf im Zweiten Weltkrieg gegen den sowjetischen Bolschewismus und anglo-amerikanischen Imperialismus.

A rather free translation= "for the united European struggle in the Second World War against Soviet Bolshevism and Anglo-American imperialism"


On the left sidebar "The workers are the builders of Europe, victims of capitalism".

Seems they have a lot in common with the hard left, final goals and means may differ, but they do not mean well for the US, UK and democracy.

145 Charles  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:52:34am

"57Chevy," "Oladunk," and "saywhat?" have all given this post a minus rating. Would any of you three like to explain why you believe it's OK for Fjordman to ignore factual points?

146 formercorpsman  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:55:17am

re: #145 Charles

Doh!

147 irish rose  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:55:36am

re: #133 zeppenwolf

re: #86 Whiterasta

I'm not aware that Scientology beheads anyone who leaves.

No, but they are reported to do things to those wishing to leave like lock you in a room until you "come to your senses".

Reporting from here in Hollywood, all I can say for sure is that whatever they're doing seems to be a hell of a good money maker-- they've got buildings everywhere.

They make big money by suing people to death... they harass companies, organizations and individuals through litigation on a regular basis, rasta. The COS is one of the most litigious organizations on the planet.

They have an aresenal of lawyers who are ready, willing and able to sue anything that even smells funny, at the drop of a hat.

148 guftafs  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:55:46am

re: #131 oslogin

That was your point as well, Oyvind.

149 maddogg  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:59:44am

I've noticed in the past that when a direct question is asked by Mr. Johnson, and no answer is forthcoming, the whompus bat is sure to follow.

150 bottehond  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 12:03:12pm

re: #131 oslogin

Arabist Hans Jansen, well known and well respected, was present at the conferences Bat Ye Or refers to. He says her book is very well documented. Are you saying he is lying? That means you suggest Bat Ye Or is lying too. What would be her goal in that case? A Zionist conspiracy maybe?

Then again, I would be interested in your opinion on islamization of Europe (et al) , or is that a conspiracy theory too? Yusug al Qaradawi says it isn't. Dutch intelligence say it isn't. Do you? I haven't read your book, but have you included information on the EAD too? I know Europeans like you, obsessed with fascism and suggesting islam- watchers to ve crypto fascists who are after the poor islamists doing nothing. How many fascists are there in Europe? We'll need numbers, dude. Unbiased numbers, checked and double checked. You have raised questions. You wouldn't have a political or commercial interest in this controversy, would you? I mean, with your book coming out and all. What a coincidence this controversy started about 6 weeks ago. I asked you these question on the VB topic. Maybe you'll have the coutersy of answering those very relevant questions. Are you linked or sympathetical to AFA, Antifa or any mutant version of the so called anti- fascists or autonomer? The Norwegian socialist party maybe? I'd like to hear your stand on these issues, because you only pick out some parts of the documentations Bat Ye Or uses. Have you actually contacted Bat Ye Or or Hans Jansen on this matter? That would only be fair after your allegations that Bat Ye Or is spreading nonsensical conspiracy theories, wouldn't you say?

Churchill (?) said: fascists of the future will call themselves anti- fascists. Anyone who denies the islamization of Europe is a islam- appeaser par excellence, because he can not deal with ethical paradoxes. We have quite a few of those in the Netherlands. Allmost all of them leftist cultural relativists and self- islamizationers or dhimmis, as Bat Ye Or calls them. That was a lie or at very best an exaggeration of that great ladie too, maybe? I consider those islam- appeasers fascists. Any support for islam is supporting fascism. How about that? I am very curious now. Convince me, I am always happy to trade in my opinion for a better one.

* takes wine and a cigar and waits *

151 Pro-Bush Canuck  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 12:06:06pm

re: #150 bottehond

Gee, you're still allowed to smoke cigars in Holland?

152 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 12:06:59pm

re: #136 Yank in the EU

Yes, it all requires careful dissection to percieve the truth of matters here. Is the situation growing dire in European countries - meaning requiring urgent action to stop creeping Islamization? Yes, there is no doubt that certain trends must be stemmed and European cultures must strengthen themselves, or face fading away into history. But, as you say, it's not even near the point of large percentages of the populice being Muslim, wide-scale warfare, or threats to the people's basic safety in the vast majority of cases, which is quite contrary to the impression of those who would use that "fear and panic" button to claim uniting with white nationalist thugs is justified.

I agree that the situation needs dealing with- better now than letting it go and allowing it to truly get out of control. But this still does not explain why vlaams belang supporters cling to the notion that the situation is dire. The situation can still be corrected without resorting to extremes, so why are these people continuing to claim "dire circumstances"? Is it possible there are other reasons why these folks would side with vlaams belang other than subscribing to the "desperation" meme? Ideological reasons, perhaps? Because I find it hard to believe that so many vlaams belang apologists could be such willing dupes as to buy into a meme that is clearly alarmist in nature, and not based on fact. Why the stringent support?

153 Killian Bundy  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 12:07:20pm

Technically, on the internets, Fjordman is free to ignore whatever he wants, facts are a speed bump. He can also pretend the moon is made of green cheese.

/you can't compel him to respond logically, succinctly, and on point, you can only assess his credibility

154 Killian Bundy  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 12:10:04pm

re: #150 bottehond

You're avatar naked.

/how 'bout I find you a nice Odin's Cross you can upload?

155 Pro-Bush Canuck  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 12:10:25pm

re: #153 Killian Bundy

My, you are in a sharp frame of mind today. Again, well put.

156 Irish Rose  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 12:10:46pm

re: #61 Charles

re: #38 swisscottage


Forgive my confusion but has Charles actually expressed an opinion on Bat Yeor's views about Eurabia? Personally I find her books to be very intelligent, persuasive and prescient.

-- the same kinds of reservations I have with almost any "grand conspiracy" theories.

I take it then, that you were not an "X-Files" afficienado?

/the truth is out there

157 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 12:17:17pm

re: #150 bottehond

Is islam the only form of fascism you in which you believe? Just curious.

158 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 12:19:19pm

re: #149 maddogg

I've noticed in the past that when a direct question is asked by Mr. Johnson, and no answer is forthcoming, the whompus bat is sure to follow.

Not always. "baron" and "dymphna" are not banned, and there are others.

159 Killian Bundy  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 12:20:41pm

re: #155 Pro-Bush Canuck

My, you are in a sharp frame of mind today.

Yeah, well, I'm working hard to change that.

/just need to retain the wherewithal to eventually read Monday's edition of IBD

160 Yank in the EU  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 12:23:11pm

re: #152 Sharmuta

I mostly concur with what you say. The answers to the questions you seek concern people's true motives, which are always difficult to ascertain with any certainty and may widely vary. My overall impression, through personal contact with VB members, that the motivations (for insisting on the "fear and panic" scenario) are twofold. First, even if the rep. says they personally don't like Dewinter, the VB's Holocaust deniers, and the white nationalist ideology, they often still have justified their position using the famous "we allied with Stalin" bit. But this presupposes the status of impending, kinetic warfare with Muslims on the streets; hence 'we need all the fighters we can find, even those who want to fight under the banner of a homogeneously white nation.' Yet even then this rationalization is flawed for (1) it is is a bad strategy and (2) it often turns out in further discussion that they really don't have too great a problem with the WN ideology or the VB celebrating the memory / inheriting the party of Nazi collaborators. Second, there is also the total laxity and insanity of the left with regard to Islamization, even worse than Pelosi and Clinton, which may help us to have some understanding of why the VB supporters seem to be shrieking that we don't grasp how bad it is. As I have made clear, of course, these rationalizations are not valid justifications for the ideology is flawed per se and it is strategically flawed to think allying with Dewinter, the VB, the BNP, etc. will work.

161 Yank in the EU  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 12:26:28pm

#160 er, "is" twofold

162 ovidius  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 12:31:54pm

Charles:

I'm totally on your side regarding Vlaams B. and Fjordman's pitiful ideological reliance on the concept of "race" as a marker of human worth.

What I don't understand is how this notion of Bat Ye'or's "Eurabia" advancing a consipracy theory to "Arabize" Europe came about here, at LGF. I've read the book, and there's absolutely nowhere that she proposes that theory.
On the contrary, she claims--and shows, with plenty of evidence--that the new East/Islam-West alliance, emerging after the creation of Israel, during the Cold War and the post Arab-Israeli wars, and following the oil crisis of the '70s, was a pretty open affair, reached at governmental and pan-European levels, together with the Arab/Islamic states and with the central contribution, thought power and hardware power of the Soviets.
Bat Ye'Or took the time to access open records that point to a clear, well-defined, far-reaching political view, that may be lost to someone who can't read "bureaucratese," but to me, who witnessed the creation of the "Palestinian sainthood" and "Israeli Zionist evil" from upclose, day by day, Pravda by Pravda, Communist disinformation screed by screed, as well as saw Arafat and his PLO murderers being given training camps and living large in Eastern Europe, in exchange for blowing up Eastern European dissidents in Western Europe,
I know there was no "conspiracy."
If the coming together of diverse ideologies and cultures for a common goal is a "conspiracy," then I'll be dammned. The fact that most of the peoples of Europe didn't realize what was happening, and were never asked, just shows a classical European elites' disdain for the "common people," in magical, splendid accord with Bolshevik totalitarianism.

Can anyone show me where Bat Ye'Or argues or even intimates about a "conspiracy" in "Eurabia? Anyone?

163 oslogin  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 12:34:32pm

re: #150 bottehond

"That means you suggest Bat Ye Or is lying too".

Nope, I suggest she is wrong. To say that she is lying would imply that she knows that she is wrong.

"Yusug al Qaradawi says it isn't".

I generally do not care about what Yusuf al-Qaradawi is saying. He is an Islamist moron with grand visions of his own and his religious buddies' great importance. However, I have never heard him say: "So, me and Jacques Chirac had a cup of cafe latte and then we decided that I would give him oil and then he would give me Europe (har-har-har!)".

"Dutch intelligence say it isn't".

Yeah, right. What about providing evidence for that very creative claim? Just because Dutch intelligence warns that people who perceive themselves as being victimised and who increasingly live in parallel societies may be dangerous, that hardly makes the grand theories of the Eurabia thesis true. Actually, it sorts of disproves it. After all, aren't the Dutch government, and Dutch intelligence, supposed to be in on the Islamisation?

"How many fascists are there in Europe? We'll need numbers, dude. Unbiased numbers, checked and double checked".

Well, I can't give you numbers. I can say something about which parties have obvious ties - historically and today - with fascist groups and which parties are ideologically close to fascism. Then we could look at how many votes these parties get, but that would not really tell us much, because quite a number of people voting for them are hardly fascists. Only in a few countries these parties are of considerable size, Belgium and France being two examples.

"You wouldn't have a political or commercial interest in this controversy, would you? I mean, with your book coming out and all".

Of course I have commercial interest in selling my book :). And I have a political interest to: I want people to realize the influence fascism has on a number of political parties in Europe - and I want people to distance themselves from these parties and rather vote or support someone else, someone more democratically minded.

" What a coincidence this controversy started about 6 weeks ago".

Are you suggesting I had something to do with it? Now, that's original! I have been planning publishing my book for ages, and have postponed it several times. But of course, I am very happy that the discussion takes off just as my book came out. If it had only helped my sales :).

"I asked you these question on the VB topic".

Sorry, must have missed those.

"Are you linked or sympathetical to AFA, Antifa or any mutant version of the so called anti- fascists or autonomer?"

No, I am a supporter of liberal anti-fascism, as you will find described on eurofascism.info. AFA, Antifa etc. are violent groups that are often dominated by political ideas I in no way approve off. Why is this a standard question, at all?

"The Norwegian socialist party maybe?"

As I write in the blogpost Charles links to above, I'm a member of the Green Party. By the way, there's several socialist parties in Norway...

"Any support for islam is supporting fascism. How about that?"

As I have stated many times, I believe Islamofascism is a very real thing, and I believe that there are many other reactionary variants of Islam that are potentially dangerous or at the very least a serious opponent to anyone who supports universal human rights, opposes homophobia and misogyny, believes in free speech, abhors laws against blasphemy, etc. I do, however, not see Islam as a whole as evil, nor do I believe Islam as a whole is fascist.

"*takes wine and a cigar and waits*"

Cheers! I'm enjoying a very nice Bosnian red, myself.

Oh, and by the way: No, I have not concacted Bat Ye'or. I suspect that she has not written emails to all the people she criticises either.

164 Irish Rose  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 12:37:30pm

re: #162 ovidius

Can anyone show me where Bat Ye'Or argues or even intimates about a "conspiracy" in "Eurabia? Anyone?

I have to admit, I'm curious about this myself Charles. But maybe I've missed something.

165 Yank in the EU  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 12:37:44pm

I's like to add that the following idea has worked wonders for groups like the VB and the BNP:

"The left charges 'racism' and 'fascism' at practically anyone who criticizes radical Islam and mass immigration, therefore all of these charges that we are 'extremist', 'racist', etc. are all falsifications by the leftist, PC totalitarians. We are a perfectly respectable party and we just think our nation should return to being white, as it has been for centuries."

In this way, one of the lesser-recognized evils of our time has been the abuse and destruction of such terms and language by the left, throwing them at anyone on the right with reckless abandon. Nevertheless, the meaning of concepts is objective, independent of the left's usage, and we still have the responsibility to discover the truth of people's ideology and reject real racism when it appears.

166 Killian Bundy  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 12:39:41pm

re: #162 ovidius

the concept of "race" as a marker of human worth.

It's not even a valid scientific reality.

DNA studies do not indicate that separate classifiable subspecies (races) exist within modern humans. While different genes for physical traits such as skin and hair color can be identified between individuals, no consistent patterns of genes across the human genome exist to distinguish one race from another. There also is no genetic basis for divisions of human ethnicity. People who have lived in the same geographic region for many generations may have some alleles in common, but no allele will be found in all members of one population and in no members of any other.

/they've conclusively mapped the human genome, read the results and, if you're a fascist enthusiast, weep

167 AuldTrafford  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 12:41:08pm

re: #139 Spiny Norman

re: #117 AuldTrafford


re: #102 realwest

I think one of the biggest complaints about the prosecution was its reliance upon the testimony of an acknowledged criminal - the drug smuggler "feloniously assaulted" by the officers. The "witness" was given a free pass across the border (and for the offense being committed at the time of the incident) so he could testify (and, I think, he has been arrested, again, since - not sure about that).

Perhaps more a question of the prosecutor's priorities than strict questions of "legality". "Ethics" is more an issue for the beholder.


Esculpatory evidence was kept from the jury, such as the alleged "victim", Osvaldo Aldrete-Davila's subsequent arrest for transporting another truckload of weed across the border, as well as witness testimony that Davila was always armed at all times (shooting a big hole in Sutton's claim that the "victim" was "clearly" unarmed and that Ramos and Compeon were never in any danger), and many other bits of pertinent information about Border Patrol Incident reporting (only field supervisors are supposed to make written reports - Ramos' and Compeon's supervisor failed to do so, but was given immunity to testify against his subordinates) that were also kept from the jury. When interviewed after the trial, every one of the jurors said that, had they heard any of that, they never would have voted for conviction. Sutton has since used every avenue at his disposal to delay any appeal hearing, such as withholding the trial trascripts for months. There are also credible claims that the Mexican government put pressure on the Bush Administration to make this persecution [sic] a priority.

That whole travesty was political from the very beginning.

No argument; I was just trying to highlight the major issue. All points you make are valid as well.

168 Killian Bundy  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 12:44:41pm

re: #167 AuldTrafford

Arsenal?

/the Soul Crew's got you're name mate

169 AuldTrafford  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 12:48:22pm

re: #168 Killian Bundy

Well, I'm a fan of the EPL, and playing around with the Avatars, Arsenal's seemed to show up best (Auld/Old Trafford for my affinity for Man U as well).

I really like the entire European football scene - especially with Champions League in full swing now. Just a lot of fun to watch. My son is into it big time, so it gives us something to chat about, too.

Can't argue with Wenger's season this year - especially after losing Henry to Barca.

170 wahabicorridor  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 12:51:31pm

re: Bat Ye'or's Eurabia thesis:

It's been a couple years since I read it but as I recall she does not portray a conscious conspiracy to Islamize Europe. Keep in mind, the French are famous cultural chauvinists. It never occured to them they were collaborating with invaders, ESPECIALLY given their colonial history in Arab/Islamic Middle East. It's not for nothing that the language of the native eleite in Algeria, Morroco, Egypt, etc. was French for a very long time. They were in it for the money in full confidence they were dealing with their cultural and intellectual inferiors.

Simultaneously, there was a convergence w/anti-Western civilization types that welcomed the dilution of what they view as an impierial colonizing culture as a good thing.

Basically there was a convergence of dissimilar interests all using and being used by the same tool - Islam.

So yes, there was always conscious intent of one sort or another to be found in the Western collaborators, but one grand overriding conspiracy? No. More like one big FUBAR of unintended consequences.

171 konservo  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 12:52:02pm
re: #162 ovidius
Can anyone show me where Bat Ye'Or argues or even intimates about a "conspiracy" in "Eurabia? Anyone?

The entire Eurabia thesis is a conspiracy theory.

"Yet the majority of Europeans, who are not antisemitic, are totally unaware of most of the EAD's policy, since its key deliberations are unrecorded. More research and publications are needed in this field."

[Link: www.nationalreview.com...]

172 guftafs  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 12:54:51pm

re: #166 Killian Bundy

re: #162 ovidius

the concept of "race" as a marker of human worth.

It's not even a valid scientific reality.

DNA studies do not indicate that separate classifiable subspecies (races) exist within modern humans. While different genes for physical traits such as skin and hair color can be identified between individuals, no consistent patterns of genes across the human genome exist to distinguish one race from another. There also is no genetic basis for divisions of human ethnicity. People who have lived in the same geographic region for many generations may have some alleles in common, but no allele will be found in all members of one population and in no members of any other.

/they've conclusively mapped the human genome, read the results and, if you're a fascist enthusiast, weep

I'm not a geneticist, know nothing about the subject, but aren't different subclassifications of human beings warranted on a perceptual basis? Sounds like the physicist trying to explain that the table your laptop is sitting on really doesn't exist, it's all really atoms with lots of air in between.

173 Charles  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 12:55:09pm

re: #162 ovidius

I'm looking for my copy of Eurabia now, can't find it. It's probably at the bottom of a pile of computer books somewhere. But I recall that when I read it (and it's not the easiest book to make it through) there were several points at which I felt it did come close to conspiracy theory territory.

The general concept of "Eurabia" as a dangerous state of unchecked immigration from Islamic countries is not what I have reservations about -- I believe something like that is going on, and Bat Ye'or's book has a wealth of information about it. But I'm skeptical about the idea that this situation is the result of a conscious plot by Euro elites. It's much easier to believe in a convergence of idiocies.

174 Killian Bundy  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 12:56:42pm

re: #169 AuldTrafford

After playing 20 seasons followed by 10 years of website manager/score reporter duties for a 100 team soccer league, I tend not to pay attention anymore. Call it burn out.

/but, you're right, it's called the beautiful game for a reason

175 wahabicorridor  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:00:22pm

re: #172 guftafs

I'm not a geneticist, know nothing about the subject, but aren't different subclassifications of human beings warranted on a perceptual basis?

Perceptual basis? Such as? If a person has white skin, any genetic anscestors from the African continent must have been really far back there? Yes, I suppose, but so what?

There is one way that it is warranted for medical reasons, such as Tay Sachs and sickle cell, but that's not what I would call a subclassification of humans, but more what is called (I think) population statisitcs.

176 Killian Bundy  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:02:12pm

re: #172 guftafs

I'm not a geneticist, know nothing about the subject, but aren't different subclassifications of human beings warranted on a perceptual basis?

Sure, absolutely, you bet, it's called culture or as they like to say in the trade, environment.

/just get it out of your mind that it's genetic, measurable across populations

177 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:02:21pm

re: #160 Yank in the EU

I agree with you. Motivations are not always easy to ascertain. For some- I believe it is because they have a vested interest in the conference (or a vested interest in the vb party membership). Others have spoken for themselves and their motives are open for interpretation. I suggest that if some do not like the conclusions drawn from the interpretations of others' words, than perhaps those supporting vlaams belang should speak more precisely, or make their motivations more clear. The issues involved are too important, imo, to brush aside as nuanced differences of culture, or as differing perspectives of the situation on the ground as it stands now. This is why it is so troubling to see obfuscation coming from vb supporters. Clarity is what is called for here, and it is what we are not receiving from the other side.

178 wahabicorridor  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:03:29pm

bottehond, are you still here?

What the hell is Doekle Terpstra's problem?

179 guftafs  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:04:42pm

re: #175 wahabicorridor

re: #172 guftafs

Perceptual basis? Such as? If a person has white skin, any genetic anscestors from the African continent must have been really far back there? Yes, I suppose, but so what?

There is one way that it is warranted for medical reasons, such as Tay Sachs and sickle cell, but that's not what I would call a subclassification of humans, but more what is called (I think) population statisitcs.

I didn't imply any moral evaluation of any differences between peoples. Sorry if that was unclear. But, as you stated, there are real differences and you can tell, for instance if someone is from Vietnam, or like myself, from Korea, within reasonable accuracy. I just meant that denying the whole concept is incorrect.

180 Yank in the EU  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:05:34pm

re: #177 Sharmuta

Ja, clarity, indeed, is the key.

181 guftafs  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:08:03pm

re: #176 Killian Bundy

re: #172 guftafs

I'm not a geneticist, know nothing about the subject, but aren't different subclassifications of human beings warranted on a perceptual basis?

Sure, absolutely, you bet, it's called culture or as they like to say in the trade, environment.

/just get it out of your mind that it's genetic, measurable across populations

Hey, I'm the one saying culture and ideas are what will settle the issue of whether we will be eunuchs in some caliph's harem or not. I'm just saying I don't think you could or should deny the concept of race. But I'm not a specialist, so I should probably back down here ....

182 EE  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:09:14pm

from another thread:
re: #725 EE

re: #719 bottehond

re: #713 EE

Sustain your theory. Big words, where's the analysis?

What exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with the opinion that the US could fight both against radical Islamism and the resurgence of European Nazism? Or do you think that the European neo-Nazis are stupid or morally above the idea of taking advantage of an opportunity to resurge while the US is involved in a different fight?

Do you disagree with a model of US power as being capable of fighting a two-front war, against both the White Fascist Supremacists and the Islamist Fascist Supremacists, the racist supremacists and the religionist supremacists? Do you think that the US is really so weak?

Or do you have a model of the European neo-Nazis as being extremely stupid and incapable of taking advantage of the opportunity afforded by America's attention to the war against radical Islamism? Or do you have a model of the European neo-Nazis as being so moral as to avoid taking advantage of a timing opportunity?

Which is your point? That the US is a paper tiger and incapable of fighting both the islamofascists and the racistfascists? Or that the European neo-Nazis are both extremely stupid and highly moral, so as to avoid taking advantage of our pre-occupation with the radical Islamists?

183 wahabicorridor  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:09:18pm

re: #179 guftafs

I just meant that denying the whole concept is incorrect.

Well, 'race' has become such a loaded term we probably need to replace it with something like 'ethnicity'. I remember a few years back when a severe earthquake hit Japan. They refused medicine from the West because they said something like the dosages would be wrong or some such thing. People were insulted. But they have a point. Different populations do metabolize some things differently, e.g., booze.

184 guftafs  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:11:22pm

re: #183 wahabicorridor

re: #179 guftafs

I just meant that denying the whole concept is incorrect.

Different populations do metabolize some things differently, e.g., booze.

Yes, we sure do.

185 wahabicorridor  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:12:19pm

re: #184 guftafs

re: #183 wahabicorridor


re: #179 guftafs

I just meant that denying the whole concept is incorrect.

Different populations do metabolize some things differently, e.g., booze.

Yes, we sure do.


But fortunately, I metabolize kimchee just fine!

/yum!

186 MrScribbler  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:13:23pm

re: #140 Spiny Norman

Still, my basic point -- that the people who should be leading the charge to get Ramos and Compean freed are distracting themselves with less-important issues -- remains.

VB, bad as it is, is no direct threat to our society. The abuse of power and contravention of US law by agents of the government is.

No answers from Malkin and her ilk. Hell, even the Huffington Pest is silent, and they display a more virulent hatred for GWB and his minions than anyone this side of the Kos Krazies.

187 guftafs  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:13:53pm

re: #185 wahabicorridor

But fortunately, I metabolize kimchee just fine!

/yum!

Good for you!
/grin

(bbl)

188 Thanos  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:16:03pm

I've been reading Belgian forums a lot lately, that's where I've been -- Charles is correct, VB's leadership is representative of everything bad about Euro Tribal nationialist groups.

Fjordman is just upset because we don't buy the accomodation theory (e.g. we worked with Stalin during WWII,) which is why he doesn't try to convince us otherwise.

BTW: We now have the "Eurabia denialists", but the next buzzword will be "Naziphobia".... saw that one cropping up in the forums quite a bit the past few weeks.

So now we are Eurabia denialist hedonistic neocon zionists ...

It just keeps getting better!

189 LSD  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:16:56pm

re: #173 Charles

But I'm skeptical about the idea that this situation is the result of a conscious plot by Euro elites. It's much easier to believe in a convergence of idiocies.

Exactly. There are a few theories that emerge from "Eurabia", this being the most plausible.

190 Straitcircle  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:17:21pm

It’s reminiscent of the global warming crowd’s quest to label critics “deniers.”

Good point.

191 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:17:37pm

re: #165 Yank in the EU

In this way, one of the lesser-recognized evils of our time has been the abuse and destruction of such terms and language by the left, throwing them at anyone on the right with reckless abandon. Nevertheless, the meaning of concepts is objective, independent of the left's usage, and we still have the responsibility to discover the truth of people's ideology and reject real racism when it appears.

Absolutely, and in my opinion, it is this obfuscation of language that the opportunists are using with great abandon themselves to hide in plain sight. If "everyone critical of islam" is a "nazi", the actual nazis don't need to hide, do they?

192 maddogg  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:18:36pm

Heh, Cowboys win again! 28-27 over Detroit.

How 'bout them Cowboys?:)

193 wahabicorridor  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:20:01pm

re: #188 Thanos

So now we are Eurabia denialist hedonistic neocon zionists ...

We're going to have to wait for at least one more vowel before we can get a good anagram out of that.

194 Jackba  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:21:02pm

Charles,
Please remove the 4th negative on this post, it was fingers moving ahead of brain. Was supposed to be a positive.

195 marwan's daughter  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:22:33pm

re: #188 Thanos

So now we are Eurabia denialist hedonistic neocon zionists ...

It just keeps getting better!

We're supercalinaziphobicexpealidocious.

196 Pastorius  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:23:42pm

I understand that the Odin's Cross is used as a white power symbol. But, I'm not clear on what is wrong with using a rat to symbolize one's organization.

I don't like rats, and most people don't, but that clearly isn't the entirety of the problem here.

Could someone fill me in?

197 Killian Bundy  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:23:58pm

re: #181 guftafs

I'm just saying I don't think you could or should deny the concept of race.

Well, I won't launch into a genetics lecture because, frankly, it's been so long I'm no longer qualified. Let me put it this way, if you believe, for example, that Koreans are a "race", then you must also accept that chimpanzees are a human "race" also, The genome is that close.

/of course chimpanzees will eventually have to lose that extra chromosome pair, or maybe we'll have to pick it up

198 bottehond  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:26:42pm

re: #151 Pro-Bush Canuck


In my own home, no man tells me what to do. If gentlemen are forbidden to perform the art of smoking an excellent cigar, we have become slaves to the tiranny of mediocracy and petit bourgeois' collectivists ethics.

199 Charles  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:28:19pm

re: #196 Pastorius

I understand that the Odin's Cross is used as a white power symbol. But, I'm not clear on what is wrong with using a rat to symbolize one's organization.

I don't like rats, and most people don't, but that clearly isn't the entirety of the problem here.

Could someone fill me in?

The points are:

1) The cartoon rat has a history of use by fascist groups.

2) That particular rat is seen in several editions of the VB youth magazine, wearing an Odin's Cross armband.

200 marwan's daughter  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:28:33pm

re: #196 Pastorius

I understand that the Odin's Cross is used as a white power symbol. But, I'm not clear on what is wrong with using a rat to symbolize one's organization.

I don't like rats, and most people don't, but that clearly isn't the entirety of the problem here.

Could someone fill me in?

We could care less about vermin being used to represent fascists. They can take that sign. It's more fitting than the swastika, which is a Hindu symbol. However, the idiots at GoV were, and still are, spinning like a top about the VB rat.

201 jeppo[deleted]  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:28:49pm
202 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:29:09pm

re: #196 Pastorius

It was explained here on the previous rat thread.

203 Yank in the EU  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:29:11pm

re: #191 Sharmuta


Bingo. I would not use the term "Nazi" to describe these groups that must be discriminated against (except for Haider's party and the NPD, who are neo-Nazi) because of its specific denotation, but your meaning is clear enough.

204 Thanos  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:29:45pm

re: #196 Pastorius

I understand that the Odin's Cross is used as a white power symbol. But, I'm not clear on what is wrong with using a rat to symbolize one's organization.

I don't like rats, and most people don't, but that clearly isn't the entirety of the problem here.

Could someone fill me in?

Wear one on a teeshirt everywhere you go for the next week, then you can come back and fill use in, n'est ce pas?

205 guftafs  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:29:53pm

re: #197 Killian Bundy

re: #181 guftafs

I'm just saying I don't think you could or should deny the concept of race.

Well, I won't launch into a genetics lecture because, frankly, it's been so long I'm no longer qualified. Let me put it this way, if you believe, for example, that Koreans are a "race", then you must also accept that chimpanzees are a human "race" also, The genome is that close.

/of course chimpanzees will eventually have to lose that extra chromosome pair, or maybe we'll have to pick it up

What would you call the regional differences then, if not "races"? You can tell people apart. Except of course in the US, very confusing, such massive immigration and intermarriaging should be outlawed *grumble* *grumble*

206 marwan's daughter  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:29:55pm

re: #201 jeppo

Dude, I'm still surprised you have an account. Your avatar is pushing it.

207 AuldTrafford  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:29:58pm

re: #174 Killian Bundy

I understand, but too bad - this is a good year, both in EPL and Champions League. Man U, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal all have real desire, and are still in it. Man City is even making a pretty credible run, tho likely to fade a bit in the Christmas rush.

CL is even more interesting, I think, with only Man U really coasting. Rangers & Celtic are proving entertaining, too.

But I can see where you're burnt out on it.

208 wahabicorridor  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:31:10pm

re: #198 bottehond

I posed a question for you in #178

What the hell is Doekle Terpstra's problem?

209 bottehond  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:33:36pm

re: #150 bottehond

"That means you suggest Bat Ye Or is lying too".

Nope, I suggest she is wrong. To say that she is lying would imply that she knows that she is wrong.

* wrong by ignorance, stupidity or Zionist paranoïd?

"Yusug al Qaradawi says it isn't".

I generally do not care about what Yusuf al-Qaradawi is saying. He is an Islamist moron with grand visions of his own and his religious buddies' great importance. However, I have never heard him say: "So, me and Jacques Chirac had a cup of cafe latte and then we decided that I would give him oil and then he would give me Europe (har-har-har!)".

* You are pretty ignorant of the strategic genious of islamists, dude. Maybe you consider them intellectual inferiour tou you. Oops, hidden racism?

"Dutch intelligence say it isn't".

Yeah, right. What about providing evidence for that very creative claim? Just because Dutch intelligence warns that people who perceive themselves as being victimised and who increasingly live in parallel societies may be dangerous, that hardly makes the grand theories of the Eurabia thesis true. Actually, it sorts of disproves it. After all, aren't the Dutch government, and Dutch intelligence, supposed to be in on the Islamisation?

* Dude, are you a featherweight? Check

www.aivd.nl

on this subject. And they serve polically correct gouvernment. You say you know better than the entire Dutch intelligence office? They are somewhat interconnected to US and Brittish and French and German intelligence, didn't you know?

* to be continued *

210 JHW  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:34:53pm

re: #196 Pastorius

Nice music on your blog. The one piece (video) Erik Satie - Gnossiennes, just had to be filmed in the Pacific Northwest, I see alder trees, vine maples, evergreens and salmon.

211 Straitcircle  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:35:31pm

re: #193 wahabicorridor

re: #188 Thanos


So now we are Eurabia denialist hedonistic neocon zionists ...

We're going to have to wait for at least one more vowel before we can get a good anagram out of that.

"good anagram"
Ha,ha. That made me laugh

212 Thanos  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:35:40pm

I haven't read the thread, I don't feel the need to since it's probably repeat #16 of the same circumlocuitous discussion we've been having. The question is does a new argument or reason exist?

213 wahabicorridor  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:37:36pm

re: #212 Thanos

The question is does a new argument or reason exist?

No.

There's been a second church shooting in Colorado - off to watch the news.

214 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:38:18pm

re: #203 Yank in the EU

It's not much different with the left here in America. They smear many Republicans as racist, which is of course untrue. But this does not negate the fact that there are real racists. In this sense- those on the left opposed to real racism have done themselves a grave disservice by watering down the language. I have asked repeatedly that if "everyone is a racist" and hence shouldn't be stated, then what am I supposed to call an actual racist? I haven't been given an answer yet.

215 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:40:57pm

Here jeppo- this is for you.

216 AuldTrafford  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:44:07pm

re: #214 Sharmuta

I agree with you. When Clinton got himself in trouble, the lefties also told us that everyone is a liar; their point seemed to be that even if you did it and caused someone injury, it was OK because everyone does it. Kinda tough to differentiate now.

Maybe their point is that everyone is evil, so they should have power so they can fix it/us ...

217 Killian Bundy  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:44:43pm

re: #205 guftafs

What would you call the regional differences then, if not "races"? You can tell people apart.

There are discernible difference across regional populations, historical populations clusters evolve and perpetuate themselves.

/what I'm saying is that any visible human genetic differences are purely cosmetic, not meaningful, look elsewhere for superiority

218 Killian Bundy  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:53:16pm

I could show you DNA profiles of Ayaan Hirsch Ali and Philip Dewinter, side by side.

/you'd be reduced to guessing who was who

219 infidel4ever  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 1:57:21pm

re: #61 Charles

re: #38 swisscottage


Forgive my confusion but has Charles actually expressed an opinion on Bat Yeor's views about Eurabia? Personally I find her books to be very intelligent, persuasive and prescient.

I think Bat Ye'or has done very good work documenting the history of the dhimmitude concept in "Islam and Dhimmitude," and in "Eurabia," sounding a much-needed warning siren on the effect of uncontrolled immigration from Islamic countries.

I do, however, have reservations about her theory that a high-level conspiracy is deliberately, consciously directing the "Arabization" of Europe -- the same kinds of reservations I have with almost any "grand conspiracy" theories.

I am not too keen on grand conspiracy theories either.

But:

In the early seventies I happened to be in the check-out line of a supermarket somewhere in the Netherlands. As it was Saturday, the place was crowded and with my cart I must have bumped into the Turkish or Moroccan woman ahead of me in the line. The woman, wrapped in several layers of non-descript beige clothes and a head-scarf, turned around and hissed: "Just you wait. We in charge here one day!"

This was in the early seventies, almost forty years ago. When we were importing "guest workers to do the work Dutch people did not want to do". Does that sound like a person who comes to another country to earn some money and find a better life? Or did (some of) those early arrivals already have the intention of creating an islamic Europe? Colour me suspicious!

Just before the arrival of these "guest workers" a law that prohibited marriage between cousins was taken off the books "because such marriages hardly ever happened in the Netherlands and this law was not necessary anymore". Hm, just before the great influx of people who did have a habit of marrying their cousins. What was the interest of the Dutch government to remove that specific old law? I am sure there are plenty of old laws on the books that nobody has used for decades. What happened to spring-cleaning those out as well?

When you bring your partner to the Netherlands it takes a couple of years before that partner becomes a permanent resident. Many muslims from Morocco and Turkey then divorce that partner and marry another one from the home country. The new permanent resident does the same. Some have imported half a dozen partners (with children of former marriages, if any). Apparently the members of the Muslim community in the town of Dordrecht are all from the same village, I forgot whether it was in Turkey or Morocco! Now don't tell me this is not organized at some level, somewhere. This is simply not normal human behaviour!

The basis is there right in the Koran: go and take over the rest of the world for Allah. Maybe all it takes is a little shove here and there?

220 bottehond  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 2:00:44pm

"How many fascists are there in Europe? We'll need numbers, dude. Unbiased numbers, checked and double checked".

Well, I can't give you numbers. I can say something about which parties have obvious ties - historically and today - with fascist groups and which parties are ideologically close to fascism. Then we could look at how many votes these parties get, but that would not really tell us much, because quite a number of people voting for them are hardly fascists. Only in a few countries these parties are of considerable size, Belgium and France being two examples.

* Close to fascism? According to whom? many european parties are for big gouvernment and little choice for citizens. Strictkly taken: fascist. I think socialist and communist parties get many votes. You call them fascists? green Parties are extreme left all over Europe. Some of them human beings in general, some of them are very fanatica"anti"fascist". Fritz Perls ones said: in the end you become what you fight. I have studied the development of leftwing organisations. Do you know Volkert van der Graaf? Do you know PETA? Green stuff.


"You wouldn't have a political or commercial interest in this controversy, would you? I mean, with your book coming out and all".

Of course I have commercial interest in selling my book :). And I have a political interest to: I want people to realize the influence fascism has on a number of political parties in Europe - and I want people to distance themselves from these parties and rather vote or support someone else, someone more democratically minded.

* More democratically minded? What kind of democracy would that be? Do you think islam needs protection from you? Green and Leftwing parties are marching against virtually non- existent fascism (except from the religion of peace) all over the continent. In the Netherlands we have a social democrat party. I need not mention to you that virtually ALL socilist, social- democrats and green parties consider and support islam as a neutral religion that is being hyjacked by some non- influential idiots and madmen. That is a misconception, completely ignoring the difference between a grouculture and the extremely (and uniquely( individuated society we live in.

* to be continued *

221 zuckerlilly  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 2:00:51pm

Remember the "anti-islamization demonstration" in Brussels this year?

"Der Spiegel" wrote, that a good part of the demonstrators were neo-nazis with neo-nazi emblems.

You can see some of them here after they were arrested. Shaven and typically dressed.

222 guftafs  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 2:05:58pm

re: #217 Killian Bundy

re: #205 guftafs

What would you call the regional differences then, if not "races"? You can tell people apart.

There are discernible difference across regional populations, historical populations clusters evolve and perpetuate themselves.

/what I'm saying is that any visible human genetic differences are purely cosmetic, not meaningful, look elsewhere for superiority

Denying a concept or fact that is valid is bad. Like Islam is not violent, but peaceful. I agree the relevance is merely medical or physiological. I am a firm supporter of the smallest minority, the individual.
/not looking for superiority. ending this thread here.

223 rightymouse  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 2:06:50pm

The supporters of the VB group, GoV, etc. etc. are being intellectually dishonest. It's difficult to believe they are stupid. I don't think they are. I also believe they care about their countries but have become hopelessly misguided.

But they must know they are being dishonest at some level (why else would they twist their brains into such silly defensive rhetoric) but apparently would prefer to do so in order to be accepted by whichever group they've decided to cast in their lot rather than be an 'outcast'.

224 Thanos  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 2:11:31pm

re: #221 zuckerlilly

Remember the "anti-islamization demonstration" in Brussels this year?

"Der Spiegel" wrote, that a good part of the demonstrators were neo-nazis with neo-nazi emblems.

You can see some of them here after they were arrested. Shaven and typically dressed.


You can also see in the Belgian political forums where they were organizing and bussing in groups -- at one point they got into an argument on theory and started trading Hitler vids to counterpoint in the forum.

225 wahabicorridor  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 2:13:33pm

re: #221 zuckerlilly

Remember the "anti-islamization demonstration" in Brussels this year?

"Der Spiegel" wrote, that a good part of the demonstrators were neo-nazis with neo-nazi emblems.

You can see some of them here after they were arrested. Shaven and typically dressed.

The problem this American has with reports like the one you cite in Der Spiegel are:

1. The German press makes the U.S. MSM look right wing. There is not even a whiff of pretence to 'objectivity'.

2. Germans are super-sensitive to the merest taint of Nazism

3. Americans are fighting the Islamists, anti-Americanism is rife in Europe. Portraying European anti-jihadis as collaborators or dupes of neo-nazis serves the European anti-American agenda.

Bottom line: I have absolutely no tools to evaluate a report like that. I've seen German Union mags report on American venture capitalists as 'locusts'. I trust European media less than I do U.S. media and that's saying something.

226 Killian Bundy  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 2:15:21pm

re: #222 guftafs

Again, I think the Human Genome Project states the truth quite elegantly:

DNA studies do not indicate that separate classifiable subspecies (races) exist within modern humans. While different genes for physical traits such as skin and hair color can be identified between individuals, no consistent patterns of genes across the human genome exist to distinguish one race from another. There also is no genetic basis for divisions of human ethnicity. People who have lived in the same geographic region for many generations may have some alleles in common, but no allele will be found in all members of one population and in no members of any other.

/read it over and over again until it sinks in.

227 americanstar[deleted]  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 2:15:42pm
228 bottehond  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 2:15:48pm

Cheers! I'm enjoying a very nice Bosnian red, myself.

* I have a Spanish wine. One of the first Spanish wines I like. French wine sucks, Chilian I like very much.


Oh, and by the way: No, I have not concacted Bat Ye'or. I suspect that she has not written emails to all the people she criticises either

* Since you are aiming at dowplaying the Eurabia- thing and it evidently is a threat to your view on islam, I feel that is realy very very weak. Bat Ye Or is a respected writer, how could you accuse that grand lady even without het given the chance to respond to your critique. Scusi, but I feel that is all too easy. Maybe you should ask her to invite you for the weekend. That would only be fair after your massive attack. You are not a journalist, but your book might have gained credibility should you have done so. Now it's your word against....? Euhmmmm.


BTW: have you responded to my question as to WHY Bat Ye Or would be lying, or fantasizing or being paranoid? I asked you about maybe her being a pro Israel troll who abuses her scientifical status to serve Zionism?


You seem like an honest man, you have answered my questions honestly. You say Bat Ye Or is wrong: I say you are wrong, because you started this thing biased. No problem for me. I respect you for taking a stand and contributing to where you believe in. Is it possible for you (intectually and ethically) to consider the possibility ythat you are wrong and " Cassandra" (not my words) Ye Or is right?

Respect for your forwardness.

229 wahabicorridor  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 2:16:50pm

Follow up:

I'm not denying there were neo-nazis there. I'm simply saying I don't know which syLABle to put the emPHAsis on.

BTW, apparently, Vlaams Belang had an agreement with the SIOE people that they reneged on, pissing off the SIOE guys. But I don't know any details. Can someone fill me in?

230 J.S.  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 2:17:01pm

I think there were a number of excellent observations from Bat Ye'or's "Eurabia" book, and that the book (even given its flaws) is worthwhile to read. Like Charles, I also felt (at times) that she was (at times) straying into conspiracy theories. For example, just because the Arab League and the EU write-up talking points or present proposals about how much they will scratch each others' backs -- it doesn't necessarily mean that "this took place." From observing Arab leadership behaviour, btw, I've also found a tendency for this group to make claims about their "power" - that is, their political power -- and they make a lot of claims -- as if they are really, really "movers and shakers" in the political realm -- a force to be reckoned with. Thus, in a leadership convention, they'll make claims that it was due to their votes that Candidate X was elected as the Leader of the party. A lot of this is pure b.s. (or wishful thinking). It's boosterism. (along the lines of -- if everybody thinks Arab group X is all-powerful, then maybe they will become powerful...) Anyway, I personally don't buy the "central planning" aspects of "Eurabia"...

231 Iron Fist  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 2:20:17pm

re: #147 irish rose,

They sound suspiciously like the NAACP.

232 Roger  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 2:20:22pm

Learn to use the quote functionality, Please! It is convenient and simple to use!

Unless of course you don't want to be read by those who don't want or don't have the time to page back and forth determining who wrote what.

233 bottehond  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 2:22:19pm

re: #221 zuckerlilly


Would you be interested in the assessment of that incident by someone who actually witnessed it? About those boldheaded guys? That being me. Let me give you this link for starters:


234 Roger  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 2:24:11pm

re: #227 americanstar

In the 1930's US judges sided in favor of Hitler when he stopped the full publication of Mein Kampf by a Californian Senator; would only allow Americans to read a stripped down version endorsed by Hitler.

235 bottehond  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 2:24:25pm

re: #229 wahabicorridor

I could. But I get so many minus evaluations that maybe I am not the person to fill you in. I was there.

236 Roger  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 2:25:48pm

re: #227 americanstar

Also there is a major difference today; it is called Israel.

237 DerKrieger  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 2:27:51pm

re: #61 Charles

I personally do believe there is a conspiracy, however, it is an unspoken conspiracy of common interests rather than an agreed upon plan. The Socialist Left in Europe all benefit from the Muslim invasion because when they attain voting rights they vote to keep the Socialists in power so long as the Socialists deliver feed from the pubic trough. The same situation exists in the US. There is no overt conspiracy on the part of the Democrats to do nothing to stop massive illegal immigration but there is an understand that the Democrats will benefit electorally if they do nothing to stop it. This I believe rises to the level of conspiracy, albeit an informal one, because each benefitting party to the arrangement knows what is gained from the arrangement without having to formalize it. The US Dems and European Socialists don't have to actually say "hey vote for me and I'll make sure you get government goodies" but it's understood by both the immigrants and their would be masters.
The European Left is just as contemptuous of Western culture as US Dems that they would destroy it just to remain in power.

238 Yank in the EU  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 2:28:32pm

re: #229 wahabicorridor

BTW, apparently, Vlaams Belang had an agreement with the SIOE people that they reneged on, pissing off the SIOE guys.

I know they had a blow-up and the SIOE people, apparently, accused the VB of taking over the event they organized to stage a public, international scene for their party at Schumann Square / EU parliament where they conflicted with the police and were told not to demonstrate. Perhaps someone else has researched the details?

239 Iron Fist  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 2:32:48pm

re: #227 americanstar,

It wont calm your fears to know that while I think VB, Fjordman, The Baron, and Brussels Journal have a ways to go before they are that dangerous, I believe that they desire to be that dangerous. That is why this mess has blown up like it has.

They never expected to get called on their White Nationalist fantasys.

240 Thanos  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 2:34:49pm

re: #225 wahabicorridor

Here's the forum where they were organising support, don't say "I have no tools" unless you are willing to read the nine pages of the thread and understand who was going, and why. You see them trading Horst Mahler and Hitler vids to counter each others arguments, which is interesting. You also read that several groups were coming in buses.

There are also articles on the Stop the Islamization of Europe blog that support some of the conclusions. We multi-source here, below are the posts, #2 is the interesting one.


SIOE Post 1
SIOE Post 2
SIOE Post 3

241 zuckerlilly  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 2:35:00pm

re: #233 bottehond

re: #221 zuckerlilly


Would you be interested in the assessment of that incident by someone who actually witnessed it? About those boldheaded guys? That being me. Let me give you this link for starters:


[Link: nl.youtube.com...]


A disgusting piece of propaganda. Intellectual dishonest.

242 Killian Bundy  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 2:36:05pm

re: #201 jeppo

Directly responding to Charles while sporting the VB logo,

/gutsy

243 bottehond  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 2:38:33pm

re: #238 Yank in the EU

Now you see why I dislike and distrust VB on the islamization- dossier? The demonstration was going to be forbidden by Sheik ThielemanSS. Then VB turned up, because many good Flemmish people wanted to join SIOE. Filip de "Johnny"Winter hyjacked our cause and turned this thing into VB vs. the Belgian SState. Freddy wanted to shut up "islamophobia", but was enabled by VB to turn this thing into an anti-VB thing. Mind you: first Mufti ThielemanSS said he wouldn't allow an ant- islamization demonstration because it could and would provoke islamist bombthrowers. Dhimmitude in action (the votes are a nice bonus, off course). Someone there showed me pics from Schaerbeek, the week before. An illegal demonstration of 4000 jihadi-islamists demanding Jews to be killed. I shit you not. Anyway: Filip Dewinter did much harm there. He personnaly silenced the anti- islamizationers. I wonder why. I have info on those skinheads too.

244 infidel4ever  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 2:39:19pm

re: #221 zuckerlilly

Remember the "anti-islamization demonstration" in Brussels this year?

"Der Spiegel" wrote, that a good part of the demonstrators were neo-nazis with neo-nazi emblems.

You can see some of them here after they were arrested. Shaven and typically dressed.

re: #221 zuckerlilly

Remember the "anti-islamization demonstration" in Brussels this year?

"Der Spiegel" wrote, that a good part of the demonstrators were neo-nazis with neo-nazi emblems.

You can see some of them here after they were arrested. Shaven and typically dressed.

Apparently there were just a few. Of course they would be shown (twice!) in the same news cast by the Belgian MSM. And notice how they are allowed to walk away? While the politicians (some even members of Parliament) of the Vlaams Belang are wrestled to the ground like thugs. [Link: www.brusselsjournal.com...] Of course, those are the people who are against dhimmi mayor Thielemans...

Be careful what you read in the European press, our MSM puts yours to shame!

245 Arbalest  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 2:39:39pm

Having waded through a number of Fjordman’s posts, they strike me as a bit too long with just a bit too much defense of small things, but still missing important pieces of information that would shed light on his writings. This bothers me; what information is knowingly withheld?

Prior to 1945, (at least Northern and Central) Europe was almost exclusively “white”, and had been for 3000 years, maybe more. There were individual Africans in parts of Europe (the Romans “imported” everyone), and possibly others, but identifying any, by name or contribution prior to perhaps 1900, is tough.

European culture is historically and effectively “white”. To see an “all-white-people” political party in an area that has been essentially “all-white-people” for thousands of years should not be surprising or particularly alarming. Ditto for this political party to espouse its culture.

The appearance, of course, is racist.

Europe is beset with a high rate of immigration, with inevitable problems.

Very many of the immigrants are illegal, and very many of the legal and illegal varieties live exclusively, and for extended periods of time, on welfare. Add in a very different culture & behavior and a refusal to assimilate (and in many cases an attempt to enforce immigrant culture) and the problems mount.

Unsurprisingly, immigration falls on racial lines. But for the Europe natives to try to control, limit or even discuss immigration appears racist

Specifically, if a group of Norwegians or Dutch or Poles or Hungarians form a political party, is this racist? If they wish to limit immigration to their country, to reduce welfare eligibility, to promote their indigenous language and culture, is this racist? Others do this, and the answer is “no”.

If they adopt neo-Nazi signs, uniforms, rhetoric, etc., then “yes”, and this is a major problem.


I dislike even appearing to defend the “Rightist” (or whoever they really are) position in Europe, but if we’re going to criticize, let’s at least get as much known information out for analysis and discussion. Let’s criticize them for the correct reasons, not Politically Correct reasons.


I try to look into the future, and I see bad times ahead for Europe. Will they go the way of Lebanon (80% Christian in 1950, now, 57 years later, effectively a Muslim state, and people are leaving) or certain West Bank cities (*5% Christian in 1960, now, 47 years later, ~10%), or will they forceably expel the Muslims?

Is there an alternative, a middle ground? I’d like to avoid the possibility of having to choose between neo-Nazis or letting Europe fall. If there’s something we can do to prevent this, perhaps we should do it. I’d rather sort out now who the players are and fix what I can.

We need to avoid a Muslim Europe. We see the events in Darfur, Southern Sudan, areas in the former Yugoslavia, Indonesia and Pakistan; we know the meanings of the Arabic word “abd”; we know the sermons, in Arabic, of various Muslim clerics, preached today.


If Fjordman, or any of Fjordman’s supporters are reading this thread, kindly pay attention.

Lose the uniforms and the neo-Nazi values, rhetoric, etc. When the VB or the Sweden Democrats, or any other political party, combine neo-Nazi stuff with anti-jihadi political planks, they endanger the anti-jihadi movement and their own cultures.

It is Western Culture, concepts (“racism is bad”, all men are created equal, etc.) and arms that put an end to slavery (and the idea that slavery is legitimate).

The world where Western values (and arms) hold sway is safe for me and mine, you and yours and everyone else. Step into a part of the world where Western values (and arms) do not hold sway, and you will live the experience.

We need to keep Western Culture and Values, not the failed Leftist-Socialist crap. It’s time to bury the neo-Nazi stuff. Once was enough.

246 bottehond  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 2:40:08pm

re: #239 Iron Fist

You think? Okay: that means you have a logical reason for waht you say. You say it just a little bit too easy, my friend. Explain why you think what you post?

247 wahabicorridor  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 2:41:02pm

re: #235 bottehond

re: #229 wahabicorridor

I could. But I get so many minus evaluations that maybe I am not the person to fill you in. I was there.


Well, as one poster here has so succinctly put it, the only authority any of us answers to is Charles. Check out who is giving you the minuses - could be she's among them. ;).

You were there so you ARE at least one person who can fill us in, so I think you should.

And you still haven't answered my question:

What the hell is Doekle Terpstra's problem?

re: #238 Yank in the EU

I know they had a blow-up and the SIOE people, apparently, accused the VB of taking over the event they organized to stage a public, international scene for their party at Schumann Square / EU parliament where they conflicted with the police and were told not to demonstrate. Perhaps someone else has researched the details?

So far so good with the explanation, but where does the 'previous agreement' part come in? VB previously agreed w/SIOE not to demonstrate?

248 Thanos  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 2:41:51pm

re: #243 bottehond

re: #238 Yank in the EU

Now you see why I dislike and distrust VB on the islamization- dossier? The demonstration was going to be forbidden by Sheik ThielemanSS. Then VB turned up, because many good Flemmish people wanted to join SIOE. Filip de "Johnny"Winter hyjacked our cause and turned this thing into VB vs. the Belgian SState. Freddy wanted to shut up "islamophobia", but was enabled by VB to turn this thing into an anti-VB thing. Mind you: first Mufti ThielemanSS said he wouldn't allow an ant- islamization demonstration because it could and would provoke islamist bombthrowers. Dhimmitude in action (the votes are a nice bonus, off course). Someone there showed me pics from Schaerbeek, the week before. An illegal demonstration of 4000 jihadi-islamists demanding Jews to be killed. I shit you not. Anyway: Filip Dewinter did much harm there. He personnaly silenced the anti- islamizationers. I wonder why. I have info on those skinheads too.

Completly agree -- they will coat-tail anything, and they will stab you in the back if it fits their mood.
They spend as much time attacking NVA and other putative allies a they do Thielmans.

249 Thanos  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 2:42:50pm

ALL:

The pertinent links about the SIOE dust-up are in my post above.

250 Yank in the EU  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 2:48:02pm

re: #243 bottehond

Anyway: Filip Dewinter did much harm there. He personnaly silenced the anti- islamizationers.

That's quite a charge, and I don't discount its truth, but it's extremely difficult to reach a point of independent factuality with these types of things. Between the leftist, state run press and the kind of non-rational defenses of the VB (who cover up the white nationalist ideology, defend it, or never deal with Holocaust deniars like VB Vice President in 2001 Roland Raes) we read everyday, I hardly trust anything except what can be known as obvious fact. I'm sure the pro-VB side has devoted tens of thousands of words to justifying why the changed the entire venue, as organized by the SIOE, with many forceful supporters backing their accounts about how it was all about the EUSSR oppressing them (not that they don't, of course). I actually went there, but did not see much and must have been on the way when the tiny demonstration happened.

251 DerKrieger  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 2:48:26pm

re: #245 Arbalest

I agree with your analysis Arbalest and from what I can tell in reading GoV it is precisely this distinction many posters there are trying to make, i.e. a party dedicated to the preservation of unique European cultures is not by definition "racist" just because its members are all white. What many Europeans are attempting to do is formal policy in non-white nations such as Japan. They purposefully restrict immigration so as to maintain their unique culture. No one would label the Japanese racist would they? Yet when Europeans seek the same level of cultural continuity they are branded "racists". Seems like a bit of a double standard to me. And I've not kept up with the positions of the various political groups, i.e VB, SD, et al so can't comment on them.

252 wahabicorridor  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 2:49:13pm

re: #240 Thanos

don't say "I have no tools" unless you are willing to read the nine pages of the thread and understand who was going, and why

The reason I say 'I have no tools" is because I'm well aware of the biases in the European media and don't have enough experience to parse an individual article (background of author, etc.), as I do w/U.S. MSM media - in that environment I can look at the headline, then the byline and probably write the article myself. Thank you for the links, I will read them in a bit - family stuff beckons at the moment.

254 Killian Bundy  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 2:51:43pm

re: #245 Arbalest

You know, the sooner you give up the "race" crutch, the sooner you'll see the em>real problem.

/ingrained, pervasive and perpetuated societal attitudes that are hard to reverse

255 Thanos  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 2:52:22pm

re: #227 americanstar

Hate legislation and Hate Crime is exactly the Wrong place to go. That's the problem in Europe - they ban these groups and their hate speech, so they have learnt to be Grima Wormtongue instead. I'd rather they stand in daylight so people can point and laugh at them. In the end they are miserable turds who deserve naught but ridicule.

Hate crimes and hate speech laws are a direct attack on liberties, and must not become the norm in the US.

256 Arbalest  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 2:55:29pm

#254 Killian Bundy

The meaning and intent of your post is unclear to me. The post is too short.

257 bottehond  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 2:56:50pm

re: #245 Arbalest


We need to keep Western Culture and Values, not the failed Leftist-Socialist crap. It’s time to bury the neo-Nazi stuff. Once was enough.

Best comment yet. On VB and euro- counterjihadi's: We can not prevent VB for claiming the deathcult- issue. I will make you shiver. All of a sudden Filip Dewinter comes up with a song: "Oh dear, another mosk".

Filip is a moron that should be kicked OUT of Vlaams Belang. How about that? I saw that video about him and his children. He makes me puke. He raises his children like Goebbels would. Let Flemmish contra- jihadis take over VB. Problem solved. Let's ask Björn Roose and Paul Bellien. They are ok. Filip needs to be removed.

BTW: to those who critisize the fact that Flemmish flags are in the link: the issue is that many good Flemmish people are very anti- islam. A big plus for them? Vlaams Belang: if you have any guts at all: you show you can cure yourselves of any nazifascixenophobichomophobic affiliation. That is in the real interest of the Freedomwanting Flemmish. Imho. Hehehe....

258 guftafs  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 2:59:25pm

re: #251 DerKrieger

re: #245 Arbalest

They purposefully restrict immigration so as to maintain their unique culture. No one would label the Japanese racist would they? Yet when Europeans seek the same level of cultural continuity they are branded "racists". Seems like a bit of a double standard to me. And I've not kept up with the positions of the various political groups, i.e VB, SD, et al so can't comment on them.

Well, I would brand the Japanese as racist. I know that countries like Japan and South Korea have a lot of that and I would classify their thinking as racist, the idea that their culture will vanish if exposed to too much foreign elements. They judge you primarily by your parents. This is the default position for all human cultures and considering their societies have skyrocketed themselves during past half-century or so, it is no wonder that these ideas float around and are quite strong.

259 Thanos  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 3:01:53pm

re: #252 wahabicorridor

re: #240 Thanos


don't say "I have no tools" unless you are willing to read the nine pages of the thread and understand who was going, and why

The reason I say 'I have no tools" is because I'm well aware of the biases in the European media and don't have enough experience to parse an individual article (background of author, etc.), as I do w/U.S. MSM media - in that environment I can look at the headline, then the byline and probably write the article myself. Thank you for the links, I will read them in a bit - family stuff beckons at the moment.

Ah, ok :)

There are biases in the Euro press, but honestly much of the Neonazi stuff they actually cover up as much as they do the Islamic stuff. When you see them pointing to something like this VB member being sworn into office it's real, and undeniable. This is stuff they want under the carpet as well.

Note in the video that some in the audience at the swear-in applaud and whistle, others grumble and complain. The salute is worth three months jail time if she gets convicted in court btw, and I'm digging since I think she is the Secretary for VB Jongeren, or the Vlaams Belang Youth group.

When Filip DeWinter was sworn in to Parliament he gave the same salute, and exused it by saying "It's just the old Roman style salute'.

260 Killian Bundy  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 3:02:04pm

re: #256 Arbalest

I don't know how to make my point much clearer.

/in the grand scheme of life, should we be concerned with the bad guys' evil iintentions or their genetic code?

261 Iron Fist  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 3:02:25pm

re: #246 bottehond,

One reason I think that they have a ways to go is a lack of action. If they had the political power, the bodies to commit, and the will to do it, they would already be doing things like counter riots, firebombings, and the like.

They haven't displayed this behavior, therefore they lack the ability to do it. It may be a defect of material, numbers, or will, but it indicates that right now they aren't doing anything.

This is, BTW, my biggest crack on their "desperation" defense for allying with neo-nazis. They would be doing something else besides allying with Nazis if they are serious. Unless they are drawn to the Nazi Ideology itself.

262 Thanos  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 3:04:07pm

re: #257 bottehond

re: #245 Arbalest


We need to keep Western Culture and Values, not the failed Leftist-Socialist crap. It’s time to bury the neo-Nazi stuff. Once was enough.

Best comment yet. On VB and euro- counterjihadi's: We can not prevent VB for claiming the deathcult- issue. I will make you shiver. All of a sudden Filip Dewinter comes up with a song: "Oh dear, another mosk".

[Link: nl.youtube.com...]

Filip is a moron that should be kicked OUT of Vlaams Belang. How about that? I saw that video about him and his children. He makes me puke. He raises his children like Goebbels would. Let Flemmish contra- jihadis take over VB. Problem solved. Let's ask Bj%uFFFDRoose and Paul Bellien. They are ok. Filip needs to be removed.

BTW: to those who critisize the fact that Flemmish flags are in the link: the issue is that many good Flemmish people are very anti- islam. A big plus for them? Vlaams Belang: if you have any guts at all: you show you can cure yourselves of any nazifascixenophobichomophobic affiliation. That is in the real interest of the Freedomwanting Flemmish. Imho. Hehehe....

I understand that even VanHecke has backed away from that one, saying "It's an Antwerp only thing..."

263 Charles  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 3:09:09pm

By the way, just to be as clear as possible: I'm not in any way accusing Bat Ye'or of being a conspiracy theorizing fascist neo-Nazi, as I'm sure someone will try to say. Her books are indispensable for understanding the global jihad, and I highly recommend them, even though I do retain the right to be skeptical over some of their more controversial assertions.

Reasonable, honest people with differing points of view can debate those issues, and it is not "denial."

264 Egfrow  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 3:13:21pm

Make no mistake, The hard left (liberals, socialists, marxists) are exploiting this rift behind the scenes.

It just boggles the mind that so called, conservatives can't see the issue for what it is. Embarcing hate group soclialists in desperation to foward the agenda agianst hate group soclialsts.

265 Thanos  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 3:14:38pm

re: #263 Charles

By the way, just to be as clear as possible: I'm not in any way accusing Bat Ye'or of being a conspiracy theorizing fascist neo-Nazi, as I'm sure someone will try to say. Her books are indispensable for understanding the global jihad, and I highly recommend them, even though I do retain the right to be skeptical over some of their more controversial assertions.

Reasonable, honest people with differing points of view can debate those issues, and it is not "denial."


Yep, you agree with the body of data, and the argument, you have quibbles on some of the conclusions. It's rare that I read any political treatise that I don't have some disagreement with some conclusions. E.G. I loved Virginia Postrell's "The Future and its Enemies" but there are conclusions she reached that I would not.

266 americanstar[deleted]  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 3:14:47pm
267 Yank in the EU  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 3:15:36pm

re: #245 Arbalest

European culture is historically and effectively “white”. To see an “all-white-people” political party in an area that has been essentially “all-white-people” for thousands of years should not be surprising or particularly alarming.

This seems to be one of the major points of disagreement in this matter. It is one thing for a nation to, as a matter of fact, be composed by tradition of white people, which is a remark about people's physiology and ethnicity that is not in itself problematic. It is quite another, however, to formulate an ideology that identifies the culture or the nation in an exclusive way with being white, which is again a reference to 'race' or to physiological traits that no on can change or be held responsible for, but now in a normative, ideological sense. This ideology has been called by many different names: "racialism," "nativism," tribalism, "white nationalism," etc. Thus, I thoroughly disagree that there should be nothing alarming about this, for the element of ethnic identity / nationalism it proposes for the nation is fundamentally flawed. It introduces an ethnically homogeneous ideal in at least some sense, which intrinsically distinguishes people on the basis of "race" and physiological characteristics. This may seem to some as quite benign, as it simply refers to the fact that the culture was always "white" and to opposes this is "PC" or 'leftist," but on the contrary it is a form of racial nationalism. This is not at bottom a difference of perspectives between Americans and Europeans on the issue of nationality (although there certainly are such), as the concepts can be considered in themselves and there is no necessary rule that a people that are 'white' may legitimately form an ideology around that ethnic, physiological trait. We have seen this inherently dangerous ideology before to spectacularly bad effect [e.g. Blut und Boden justifications for dealing with non-whites in a militant fashion], for it reduces the idea true membership of the nation with native rights to physiological traits and to the biologically dubious notion of "race." Indeed, Fjordman, Dymphna and Gates of Vienna have defend this white nationalist ideology tooth and nail, and this concept is the core around which the current controversy revolves. In sum, the introduction of "race" or "whiteness" or "caucasion" into a conception of nationalism is a fatally flawed prospect, and it is independent of simply noting that the nation has always been white, since the latter does not assert a racial idea as white nationalism intrinsically does. In a more general way, Dennis Prager summarizes the point well when he says that nationalism is good if it is inclusive to different ethnicities and calls for shared values and assimilation of immigrants, but it turns immediately dangerous when it is exclusive on physiological or 'racial' grounds. Hopefully, this is understood as a rational disagreement, not any sort of personal accusation.

268 Thanos  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 3:17:15pm

re: #266 americanstar

re: #255 Thanos


re: #227 americanstar
Every time I read a rant from "Fjordman" or "The Baron" I feel ill and scared for my children and the world. They reminds me of past euronationalist racists from the 1930s, namely Hitler and Goebbels. And why do they feel the need to hide behind phony names like a KKK member? Is there ANY way these modern hate-mongers can be prevented from spewing their vile message? Is there any anti-hate legislation that can be used or even decent people willing to interceed? I mean, if someone would have stopped the original Nazis in 1930, millions of lives could have been saved. I do think VB, Fjordman, The Baron, and Brussels Journal are that dangerous. Scary.
Hate legislation and Hate Crime is exactly the Wrong place to go. That's the problem in Europe - they ban these groups and their hate speech, so they have learnt to be Grima Wormtongue instead. I'd rather they stand in daylight so people can point and laugh at them. In the end they are miserable turds who deserve naught but ridicule.
Hate crimes and hate speech laws are a direct attack on liberties, and must not become the norm in the US.

I disagree. Whatever it takes to stop Fjordman and Baron from spreading hate is OK by me. Would you have been OK with using legislation in 1930 to stop Hitler? If it was ok then, why not now? Government and laws are here for a reason, to protect the innocent. BTW, where does this Fjordman write from, Europe or the USA?


No, I wouldn't be ok. But there were laws on the books that could have been used to stop him. The point isn't to jump into the arena and start practicing group politics like our foes do. It's all about individual liberty.

269 Yank in the EU  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 3:19:41pm

#267 pardon the typos: "oppose" & "defended"

270 Charles  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 3:22:25pm

"americanstar" is yet another banned user trying to sneak back in and post stupid comments. Now blocked again.

271 Thanos  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 3:24:38pm
Indeed, Fjordman, Dymphna and Gates of Vienna have defend this white nationalist ideology tooth and nail, and this concept is the core around which the current controversy revolves. In sum, the introduction of "race" or "whiteness" or "caucasion" into a conception of nationalism is a fatally flawed prospect, and it is independent of simply noting that the nation has always been white, since the latter does not assert a racial idea as white nationalism intrinsically does. In a more general way, Dennis Prager summarizes the point well when he says that nationalism is good if it is inclusive to different ethnicities and calls for shared values and assimilation of immigrants, but it turns immediately dangerous when it is exclusive on physiological or 'racial' grounds.

re: #267 Yank in the EU

Yes there's the rub. When you make the argument social e.g. culture, vs laws, ideals, and universal values, then you get into choppy water and the distinctions between the approaching wave and the receding wave are lost in the roaring wind. You find out too late the approaching wave is behind you, at which point you are pooped and sunk.

272 Thanos  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 3:26:38pm

re: #270 Charles

"americanstar" is yet another banned user trying to sneak back in and post stupid comments. Now blocked again.


Yeah, I was smelling something blubbery there, was trying to dig out what.

273 wahabicorridor  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 3:28:13pm

re: #257 bottehond

Filip is a moron that should be kicked OUT of Vlaams Belang. How about that? I saw that video about him and his children. He makes me puke. He raises his children like Goebbels would. Let Flemmish contra- jihadis take over VB. Problem solved. Let's ask Bj?Roose and Paul Bellien. They are ok. Filip needs to be removed.

BTW: to those who critisize the fact that Flemmish flags are in the link: the issue is that many good Flemmish people are very anti- islam. A big plus for them? Vlaams Belang: if you have any guts at all: you show you can cure yourselves of any nazifascixenophobichomophobic affiliation. That is in the real interest of the Freedomwanting Flemmish. Imho. Hehehe....

This has to be quick, I've got stuff on the stove.

bottehond, do you have any idea that for the most part that's all people here needed to know about you? For someone who prides himself on being blunt, you certainly have been (publicly) coy.

But I'm going to kick your ass on a couple points:

We have already challenged Paul Belien, et. al., to lose the racial supremacists. In response, Belien posted threads by one Takuan Seiyo that touted racial supremacist ideology re: I.Q.

Now. Paul Belien. I want you to give what I'm about to say some thought.

Belien is a devout Catholic. Given that, I have to assume he believes homosexual behavior is a sin. Yet he happily embraced Bruce Bawer, a practicing homosexual because Bawer is anti-jihadist.

Yet when Bawer came out in defense of Charles, what was Belien's response? He posted a photo at Brussels Journel of two men, dressed in biker/tatoo getup, kissing with the lede (referring to Charles and Bawer) "Is this what it's all about?" - implying Charles and Bawer are 'in bed' together in more ways than one.

Class act.

Belien has written speeches for DeWinter to present here in the U.S.

Paul Belien will get into bed with anyone or anything who can further the anti-jihadi, anti-EU agenda. ANYONE.

For someone who touts his moral credentials as a devout Catholic, that's a problem.

Not, bottehond, Belien is not ok.

274 Thanos  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 3:28:14pm

Charles, feel free to delete where I quoted ameriwhatist

275 Killian Bundy  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 3:28:58pm

re: #260 Killian Bundy


/in the grand scheme of life, should we be concerned with the bad guys' evil iintentions or their genetic code?

And, of course, trying to differeiate human beings in terms of genetics is a huge waste of time. The differences aren't remotely statistically significant.

I could dig up Yasser Arafat and put his DNA side by side with a mouth swab of Benjamin Netanyahu.

/you couldn't tell the difference

276 Charles  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 3:29:22pm

This one now has four blocked accounts.

277 Yank in the EU  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 3:31:26pm

re: #271 Thanos

All I hope is that the argument / explanation is clear.

I didn't want to spend and hour on the post and am doing work at the same time. It is a vital issue.

278 Killian Bundy  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 3:35:20pm

re: #276 Charles

This one now has four blocked accounts.

/I'm guessing that's hardly a record

279 Thanos  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 3:37:26pm

re: #277 Yank in the EU

re: #271 Thanos

All I hope is that the argument / explanation is clear.

I didn't want to spend and hour on the post and am doing work at the same time. It is a vital issue.


Yes that's the root of the matter -- when you base things on "our heritage" rather that constitutional rights and values, then you find yourself strangely in tune with Belien and Buchanan, who adapt those good social values to their cause. That path leads to group v. group and you find yourself playing in the left's favorite theater of operations. Most people who try to approach the problem from that angle end up in blustering populism and grievance theater rather than doing anything effective. It's why Buchanan is marginalised to MSNBC.

280 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 3:38:50pm

re: #157 Sharmuta

re: #150 bottehond

Is islam the only form of fascism you in which you believe? Just curious.

*Still waiting for an answer*

281 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 3:42:50pm

re: #259 Thanos

Wow, that's a jaw dropper.

282 wahabicorridor  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 3:48:03pm

re: #280 Sharmuta

re: #157 Sharmuta


re: #150 bottehond

Is islam the only form of fascism you in which you believe? Just curious.


*Still waiting for an answer*

Read the thread. Try #257.

283 Roger  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 3:48:22pm

americanstar's first comment is humorous in light of it being a sneaking-back-on'er.

Yipeee! I finally made it! Thanks so much for the opportunity to join the Lizard Army! I love you guys.....

should be read as

Yipeee! I finally made it again! Thanks so much for the opportunity to rejoin the Lizard Army! I love you guys.....getting whacked!
284 dooyork  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 3:48:30pm

Charles, do you think Europe is headed towards becoming Eurabia (regardless of whether it will result from an organized "consipracy" or simply a coincidence of various factors)? If so, do you think this is a bad thing? If so, how bad? If you had to choose between the Islamization of Europe or the preservation of a "European" Europe at the hands of neo-Nazis -- which is the lesser evil?

It would be nice to see you, Fjordman, Atlas, Gates of Vienna, and Pastorius of CUANAS and IBA actually discuss these (vitally important) questions instead of resorting to name-calling. Nobody on the Left is going to discuss these things, that's for sure, so it would be nice if we did not turn against ourselves like this.

285 guftafs  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 3:48:42pm

re: #259 Thanos

Whoa! Remind me again why anti-jihadists need to collaborate with VB? So we can learn to greet each other in the proper style? Disgusting.

286 Thanos  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 3:51:16pm

re: #281 Killgore Trout

re: #259 Thanos

Wow, that's a jaw dropper.

Yeah, came across it the other night while researching my grand opus on VB, I am sincerely hoping that I don't need to post it.

287 rightymouse  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 3:51:58pm

re: #284 dooyork

Your newbie question has been answered over and over and over here. Please go look at the previous threads on this subject.

288 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 3:54:21pm

re: #284 dooyork

The name calling has come from fjordman, gov and bj- not Charles.

289 Killian Bundy  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 3:59:34pm

Okay, everyone has a unique genetic signature and it is imutable. Birth defines it. What then?

/Skinner wasn't totally correct, but he was on the right track, his work can be replicated, training water dprived rats takes some effort but it's somewhat entertaining

290 bottehond  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 4:01:28pm

re: #273 wahabicorridor

I vouch for Paul Belien then, if needed. I am a very devote Catholic too. Even though my (life)style is not quite the reflection of the tone my Mother church sings. This Pope is doing all right. he slightly provokes the death cult every once and again. Anyway.....Do not ever forget my pope begging for forgiveness towards the Jewish people. He saved a jewish girl. Nuff said. Me being a cultural Catholic, loving father of two bottehond-pups, I'd say Rc and Jew. are even. You have suffered, we have suffered. That is all in the past now. The United States of America and FreeThinking Dutch, French, Brittish, German, Hungarian and Polish need to line up. I you want Filips balls, we demand Hilaries boobs in return.....Hehehe.

291 Arbalest  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 4:06:32pm

#257 bottehond

Thanks for the vote. But do you, by any chance, have influence with Fjordman, Baron B. or any of the people at GoV? Will you smack some sense into them; force them to get the message?

I believe that they believe that they see the campfires of their enemies (and I suspect that they really do), but given their associations. I can only offer advice. Again, they need to lose the neo-Nazi “stuff” any anti-Jewish baggage, etc.

292 Arbalest  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 4:07:03pm

#260 Killian Bundy

Your tag “/in the grand scheme of life . . . ” clarified things somewhat; your previous post was quite short and your use of the word “you” was not sufficiently clear.

Concern with “evil iintentions” is more important then “their genetic code”, but there’s evidence that the immigration into Europe is a threat to the indigenous people, and those with “intentions” seem to line up on racial lines.

While the human genome may have been mapped, and the genetic scientists can’t find . . . etc. . . .etc. . . . it is also true that one’s biological children frequently exhibit physical characteristics indicative of their ancestor’s “ethnic” identities, and not of other “ethnicities”. We do not see people living in Tibet and whose family history is exclusively Tibetan (for the last 500 years or so) producing children that have all of the physical characteristics (i.e., looks identical to) of a native of Botswana. There are other examples. Therefore, I conclude that the Human Genome conclusions are incomplete.

293 Yank in the EU  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 4:07:24pm

It's good to realize that when you write badly -- not choosing interesting phrases, with typos, in a large block of text instead of paragraphs, and long sentences with complex clauses -- it makes the good pieces seem much more pleasant and coherent.

294 Arbalest  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 4:08:07pm

#267 Yank in the EU

I understand your post as a rational disagreement. Could you please break further posts into paragraphs for easier reading?

My intent is to respond to your whole post, but I the following excerpts as markers:

It is one thing for a nation to, as a matter of fact, be composed by tradition of white people, which is a remark about people's physiology and ethnicity that is not in itself problematic.

We seem to agree on this, and I suspect that some European posters assume this (but no one said so, because it is very close to the “racist” line).

It is quite another, however, to formulate an ideology that identifies the culture or the nation in an exclusive way with being white, . . . .

I detect a logical conflict between the preceding quote and this one (this excerpt and the entire sentence).

Thus, I thoroughly disagree that there should be nothing alarming about this . . . . . .

Perhaps you are right, but you might have jumped to this conclusion too soon.

This [nativism . . .] may seem to some as quite benign, as it simply refers to the fact that the culture was always "white" and to opposes this is "PC" or 'leftist," but on the contrary it is a form of racial nationalism.

It does simply refers to the fact that the culture was always "white", but the jump to “racial nationalism” seems premature.

The VB may be doing this, or being led by the neo-Nazi elements. What about the VB membership as a whole? Do they want this, or do they see no alternative? If presented by an alternative, what will they do?

Finally, how do the immigrants act/react? What percentage are assimilating? What percentage refuse to assimilate, and in fact choose to try to enforce Islam on their hosts?

This may be the crux of the matter; enough unassimilated Muslims will cause instability. Further, some of the London bombers were “assimilated”, or at least seemed so.

In any event, there is a difference between Blut und Boden, and the like, and limiting immigration in order to preserve one’s culture.


Dennis Prager’s point that nationalism is good if it is inclusive to different ethnicities and calls for shared values and assimilation of immigrants is well taken (see my first post on this thread).

But the problem Europe is facing is one of differing values (e.g., Islam) between the natives and the immigrants, and a refusal to assimilate by the immigrants, and it seems to line up on racial lines.

There is a sequence condition that needs to be accounted for in all arguments.

295 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 4:09:19pm

re: #286 Thanos


I am sincerely hoping that I don't need to post it.


Post it whether you need to or not. I think that little clip says a lot.

296 bottehond  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 4:10:12pm

re: #273 wahabicorridor

I vouch for him then I am a very devote Catholic too. Even though my (life)style is not quite the reflection of the humane tone my Mother church sings. Do not ever forget my pope begging for forgiveness towards the Jewish people. Me being a Catholic, loving father of two bottehond-pups, I say we are even. You have suffered, we have suffered. That is all in the past now. The United States of America and Freethinking Dutch (et al) choose Freedom from the death cult. It is about ime you join "my" war. Anyone interested in setting up Free TV Press? Infrastructure no problemo.

297 rightymouse  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 4:11:50pm

Skin pigmentation does not define the value of a human being.

Destructive, anti-social ideas are what the civilized world are at war with - not brown, black, pink or white skin.

298 Roger  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 4:12:18pm

re: #259 Thanos

At around 26:72-73 there is a shot of a few audience members. They are stoic and there is signs of dislike for her behavior.

Maria De Berlanger sits down and looks away; with the look of someone who knows they are POS's and stubborn in their ideology.

Earlier there are frames showing there are a number of non-whites in the audience.

299 wahabicorridor  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 4:14:12pm

re: #290 bottehond

I vouch for Paul Belien then, if needed

Ok, then, in friendship, we will agree to disagree on this. And to continue to talk.

This Pope is doing all right.

Allr right? Just All right?!

No. Dude. Pope Benedict the XVI is awesome. Here in the U.S. we call him Pope B16, in rememberance of a very effective bomber plane in WWII.

I'd say Rc and Jew. are even. You have suffered, we have suffered.

I personally think evaluating something as being 'even' is not terribly productive. There is a Catholic publication I subscribe to, "First Things" that I love, for the rigor if nothing else. But probably, this is something we should discuss privately.

/And how did you know to address me as a Jew? I'm nust working on it, not there yet.

300 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 4:20:08pm

re: #294 Arbalest

But the problem Europe is facing is one of differing values (e.g., Islam) between the natives and the immigrants, and a refusal to assimilate by the immigrants, and it seems to line up on racial lines.

I believe that is a superficial view of the situation, when it is indeed a matter of differing values. For example- have the Brits had a problem assimilating Hindus from India into their culture? The fundamental problem is that of the host's cultural values and laws being rejected by certain immigrant communities- regardless of race.

301 Killian Bundy  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 4:21:04pm

re: #292 Arbalest

there’s evidence that the immigration into Europe is a threat to the indigenous people, and those with “intentions” seem to line up on racial lines.

What are these "racial lines" you speak of. Remember, Isalm is not a race.

Therefore, I conclude that the Human Genome conclusions are incomplete.

/far be it from me to prevent you from wallowing in your ignorance, I tried

302 ovidius  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 4:25:01pm

# 173 Charles
Thanks for writing back.
I posted a detailed answer a couple of hours ago, but my dial-up demon, NetZero, would not let me compose anything that lasts longer than 5 minutes. So I lost everything. Bastards.

No matter.
I'll get rid of them in the coming year.

303 guftafs  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 4:32:24pm

re: #292 Arbalest

#260 Killian Bundy

Your tag “/in the grand scheme of life . . . ” clarified things somewhat; your previous post was quite short and your use of the word “you” was not sufficiently clear.

Concern with “evil iintentions” is more important then “their genetic code”, but there’s evidence that the immigration into Europe is a threat to the indigenous people, and those with “intentions” seem to line up on racial lines.

The hostile immigrants are a threat to all living in Europe, whether you can trace your bloodline three generations back as native or not. The jihadist may be religious racists but you seem to suggest that we need to confront their racism with our own "white" brand of racism in order to survive. That is not a workable solution. Even if "white" racism wins out, once fulled up it is a fire which will devour anything non-white thereafter, so count me out from that scheme.

304 bottehond  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 4:36:51pm

re: #294 Arbalest


Good post. You obviously have thought this over.


* Cheers *

305 Killian Bundy  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 4:37:18pm

re: #303 guftafs

Okay, brass tacks.

/what's you're solution?

306 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 4:38:38pm

re: #282 wahabicorridor

I fail to see that as a sufficient answer to my question.

307 wahabicorridor  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 4:43:10pm

re: #306 Sharmuta

re: #282 wahabicorridor

I fail to see that as a sufficient answer to my question.

Your failures aren't my problem.

And I would remind you of your own mantra, paraphrased for brevity.

No one here answers to anyone but Charles.

Which means bottehond doesn't answer to you.

308 guftafs  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 4:43:25pm

re: #305 Killian Bundy

re: #303 guftafs

Okay, brass tacks.

/what's you're solution?

I've written about it here, here and here.

War against Iran is inevitable. I see no reason why we shouldn't attack now when much less people will have died and suffered than will have once we do.

309 guftafs  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 4:44:51pm

re: #308 guftafs

God my grammar stinks. Hope the meaning got through.

310 dooyork  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 4:45:00pm

rightymouse #287: Yes, Charles has sort of expressed a view as to the first part of my question, saying that, if we are headed for Eurabia, it's not necesarily by means of a "conspiracy." I agree with this.

But, I have no idea what he thinks about the rest of my question, in particular: if we are faced with the stark choice of two evils -- Eurabia or some new form of European fascism -- which is the lesser evil? This question is important, because the Vlaams Belang controversy is rooted in the question of whether we should ally ourselves with just anyone, simply by virtue of the fact that they also oppose the jihad.

I agree with Charles that Fjordman and GoV have not been forthright about Vlaams' Nazi sympathies/connections -- why don't they just admit this? It's stupid. Fine. But, the fundamental question remains, should Vlaams and others like them be disqualified as allies against the jihad on that basis? As I see it, the answer depends on: how bad Eurabia would be, how imminent Eurabia is, how bad, by comparison, it would be if groups like Vlaams were in power, to what degree would Vlaams or others help the anti-jihad, and what is the danger of a Euro-fascist rise in this day and age.

In my view Islamism is such a menace, and Europe is so far advanced towards dhimmitude, that virtually anyone who opposes the jihad should be considered an ally at this point. And, I think a resurgence of European nationalism could not possibly be as bad as an Islamic Europe would be. Naziism was a weird historical blip, which Europe survived, but Islam would mean the death of Europe as such. Once Europe is absorbed into the Muslim world, that's it. And, a Eurofascist Europe would not necessarily follow from groups like Vlaams gaining enough power to advance the anti-jihad to the degree they're able.

Anyway, those are the issues I wish Charles and the other bloggers mentioned above would address substantively -- and I don't care who started it, #288. The way they are all focusing so much on the peripheral disputes -- who lied about what somebody else responded to dishonestly while insulting somebody else for being a liar -- is not helpful at all. It reminds me of how the question of whether Sadaam sought Yellowcake somehow morphed to what did Scooter Libby deny not having said to so and so on X date?

Let's assume Vlaams are Nazis, and Fjordman is a liar and a poopyhead. Fine. Should Vlaams be considered an ally in the anti-jihad?

311 bottehond  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 4:45:38pm

re: #303 guftafs

No, my friend. It is just a matter of indivual Freedom or submission to some cult. That's all.
There are white islamist over here. Converted halfwits, sect- sensitives and other weirdos. It has nothing to do with race, Islam is a wicked memen. Nothing more.

312 Roger  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 4:46:24pm

re: #303 guftafs

Please.

it is a fire which will devour anything non-white thereafter

there are many people who fought and died fighting against the Nazis while also happening to be white. In fact if Germanic descendants in America and other Allied places had clung to blood rather than ideology the outcome of WWII would have had a sobering probability of a different outcome.

[Link: en.allexperts.com...]
Fortunately most had immigrated to America ahead of time out of ideological differences and necessity.

313 guftafs  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 4:47:35pm

re: #311 bottehond

re: #303 guftafs

No, my friend. It is just a matter of indivual Freedom or submission to some cult. That's all.
There are white islamist over here. Converted halfwits, sect- sensitives and other weirdos. It has nothing to do with race, Islam is a wicked memen. Nothing more.

There is a definite element of racism in Islam. Against whom it is directed differs I guess. Look at the collective neurosis each time Israel or the Jews are brought up. Ugly.

314 Steffan  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 4:48:03pm

re: #81 poteen

re: #58 Killgore Trout

Drill bra rules!
The Machine Girl

And we get "Lions for Lambs".

I want that at my local cinema.

It's certain to pull down more than "Redacted." Tell De Palma to forget about the moonbat politics and bring in the ninjas and drill bras.

The minigun wasn't a bad idea, either. Beats the crap out of the talking polar bear in "Golden Compass."

315 guftafs  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 4:51:13pm

re: #312 Roger

re: #303 guftafs

Please.

it is a fire which will devour anything non-white thereafter

there are many people who fought and died fighting against the Nazis while also happening to be white. In fact if Germanic descendants in America and other Allied places had clung to blood rather than ideology the outcome of WWII would have had a sobering probability of a different outcome.

[Link: en.allexperts.com...]
Fortunately most had immigrated to America ahead of time out of ideological differences and necessity.

I'm not sure I follow. Yes, most people killed by the Nazis were white, I guess. How does this relate to what I said about not countering religiously based Islamic racism with your own homemade racism?

316 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 4:52:36pm

re: #307 wahabicorridor

So now I'm not allowed to ask a question in an attempt to better understand another poster- gottcha.

And trying to use my words against me isn't flying, because in asking a question about fascism, I didn't tell anyone what to do, say or think. I asked for clarification. If he chooses not to answer me- that is his choice. That you feel the need to answer for him- that is your choice. But nowhere have I been told before that we could not ask for clarifications of another poster's position, so I will continue to do so as I see fit.

317 bottehond  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 4:53:16pm

re: #306 Sharmuta

Maybe wahabicorridor failed to understand what you were asking. Your questions sound like Thomas Toquemada singing in the shower after a hard days work.

318 bottehond  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 4:54:54pm

re: #313 guftafs


Islam = Jewhate. Period. In Islamsterdam, manyteachers do not dare mention the Shoa. Because of what, do you think?

319 Killian Bundy  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 4:56:03pm

re: #308 guftafs

War against Iran is inevitable.

Well, I tend to agree, the quickest way to the ultimate finish line is through Tehran, one way or another

/however, that topic it only tangentially related to European immigration

320 Yank in the EU  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 4:56:29pm

re: #294 Arbalest

I detect a logical conflict between the preceding quote and this one (this excerpt and the entire sentence).

To put the point another way: there is a great difference between the factual observation of a nation being traditionally of X "race" and of formulating an ideal of nationalism around this race. This is the core of the problem.

Perhaps you are right, but you might have jumped to this conclusion too soon.

I'd sincerely be happy to see that demonstrated.

It does simply refers to the fact that the culture was always "white", but the jump to “racial nationalism” seems premature.

Refer to the substantial distinction above: between stating a contingent truth or fact (e.g. people from Flanders seem to be of the white 'race') and formulating a normative proscription, or a valuational rule, for national identity upon this concept of "race." I see a huge difference, but those defending white nationalism would often closely blend the two. This is perhaps the error in logic that you sense.

The danger arises in the idea of nationalism centered around being "white" and in the collective effort to preserve the "white race," using the BNP's language. This creates an ethnic or racial ideal for the nation in at least some sense, which I have argued contains the inherent and serious flaw that "race" in brought into the national identity as opposed to non-physiological traits that people can be responsible for. It's a crude reduction of the person.

The VB may be doing this, or being led by the neo-Nazi elements. What about the VB membership as a whole? Do they want this, or do they see no alternative? If presented by an alternative, what will they do?

Yes, clearly Dewinter defends the white nationalist ideology, which I am saying is fundamentally wrong. So that would determine our disagreement on that immediately. As a resident in Flanders, I have met a number of members of the party and the views are certainly mixed. White supremacist ideas are clearly present in some, along with other troubling realities. The Vice President of the VB, Roland Raes, denied the Holocaust of the Jews on TV in 2001 and shortly stepped down but remained on as senator in Antwerp (IIRC). There are types that I would easily describe as supporting "white power" and they talk about repatriating all immigrants and non-whites. In this link Dewinter talks about how the party, still to this day, honors Staf De Clercq who was a Nazi collaborator in Europe at the time of the Jews' deportation and was one of the founders of the party Dewinter affirms as his own.

There are also quite a few people who feel themselves in a corner with regard to Islam and are looking for anyone who is willing to take action against what they see as an impending disaster; they often have absorbed rationalizations justifying the union with white nationalists in the fight. The leadership, as clearly beholden to their racial nationalist base who affirm their ideas through white pride symbols, are the greatest problem.

Finally, how do the immigrants act/react? What percentage are assimilating? What percentage refuse to assimilate, and in fact choose to try to enforce Islam on their hosts?

Of the Muslims I know, and there have been a number, there is absolutely no call to assimilate. Of course. EU countries are dominated by socialism and multiculturalism. Immigrants, often Muslims with no intention of partaking in Flemish culture, receive monthly welfare checks of 1000-1500 euros and are under no pressure to respect the culture. But this is a problem with the socialist policies, and there is no necessary connection between this and turning out of fear and panic to groups like the Vlaams Belang, which would be a great error in strategy and morality.

321 bottehond  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 4:58:50pm

re: #299 wahabicorridor

Why don't you call our lawyer and settle things with her. Over and done with.

322 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 5:01:30pm

re: #310 dooyork

Should Vlaams be considered an ally in the anti-jihad?

In a word- no.

The way they are all focusing so much on the peripheral disputes -- who lied about what somebody else responded to dishonestly while insulting somebody else for being a liar -- is not helpful at all.

Charles raised serious questions, to which the response has been obfuscation and ad hominem attacks. Why isn't the other side in this dispute addressing the issues?

323 guftafs  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 5:01:59pm

re: #319 Killian Bundy

No, I think it will solve all problems with imperialistic Islam. Destroy the basis for the dream of global domination, the main founder and inspiration, and the Muslims in the West stop being funded and inspired by them. It has to be done unapologetically though, not the way the Iraq war was conducted. There must not remain any doubt that we mean to kill each and any who resist us, and are ready bring suffering to all that they hold dear. Just like WWII. Then we tell the Saudis to stop spreading their crap. This of course presupposes that we at the same time remove the intellectual poisons that makes us act sluggishly when we should have struck long ago.

324 bottehond  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 5:02:08pm

re: #299 wahabicorridor


The adress thing. Ah, yes.... I am a strong believer in female intuition. You adressed me, I knew. Capice. Nothing else to say about hat.

325 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 5:03:28pm

re: #317 bottehond

Thanks. That really clarifies things for me.

326 rightymouse  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 5:05:57pm

re: #310 dooyork

The questions you ask have been answered here by Charles and other posters.

Do yourself a favor and go back to the previous threads on this issue.

Educate yourself.

Otherwise, you're just being boring and annoying.

327 bottehond  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 5:07:23pm

re: #325 Sharmuta

Puppy, I told you you barking up the wrong tree. Get over it. Do you like dogs?

328 bottehond  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 5:08:14pm

re: #326 rightymouse

Be a nice mouse, will you?

329 rightymouse  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 5:09:20pm

re: #318 bottehond

re: #313 guftafs


Islam = Jewhate. Period. In Islamsterdam, manyteachers do not dare mention the Shoa. Because of what, do you think?


Oh, I dunno. Their stupid politics that govern public education?

330 rightymouse  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 5:10:09pm

re: #328 bottehond

re: #326 rightymouse

Be a nice mouse, will you?


And what would that be to you?

331 Killian Bundy  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 5:10:26pm

re: #323 guftafs

You pretty much get it.

/just need to dial it back a notch or so and think long term, but hey, who am I to judge?

332 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 5:11:06pm

re: #327 bottehond

Do you have an actual argument to present or are you nothing but ad hominem?

333 Pastorius  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 5:13:51pm

#284 Dooyork,

The only "name" I use in the posts where I have criticized DeWinter is "ethnic nationalist." I've also said that I think DeWinter has "white supremacist ideas" or something like that.

I'd hardly call that name calling.

What I have been trying to do is to get everyone to use the same definitions of words like

race

culture

ethnicity

The problem, as I see it, is that some people are using the word "Ethnicity" to mean race while others are using it to mean culture.

It is my contention that the West's problem with Islam is cultural. It has nothing to do with race. Additionally, any immigration problems which Europe has are the result of a lack of assimilation. Assimilation is an accculturation issue. Therefore, it also is about culture, not race.

What could you disagree with there?

334 guftafs  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 5:15:23pm

re: #331 Killian Bundy

Glad we agree.

/Still think that quote from the Human Genome Project is like a map saying 'the house ain't there' when it stands right before your nose, but maybe that's me needing to sleep. now. good night.

335 Pastorius  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 5:24:10pm

#284 Dooyork,

You said: Nobody on the Left is going to discuss these things, that's for sure, so it would be nice if we did not turn against ourselves like this.


I say: I agree. I'd like to discuss the issue. You might have noticed that IBA had multiple writers (including Baron himself) posting on the issue from the opposite viewpoint of mine. Baron quit, of course. But, Pamela is still a contributor to IBA if she wants to be.

I have not rejected anyone over this. I have only said my piece.

336 Yank in the EU  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 5:25:11pm

pimf: of course, that should be "prescription"

337 Render  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 5:25:48pm

Sweden Democrats link dump:

=

[Link: www.theregister.co.uk...]

Well imagine all that...

===

[Link: www.nizkor.org...]

“Nevertheless, there has been growing evidence that despite its protestations to the contrary, the SD's back-door links with the Skinheads were never actually broken, or, if broken, have been restored.”

===

[Link: rjjago.wordpress.com...]

Interesting...

===

On DeWinter in 1988...

WARM
UP,
R

338 Pastorius  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 5:30:57pm

Dooyork,

I know you, don't I?

339 wahabicorridor  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 5:40:01pm

re: #321 bottehond

re: #299 wahabicorridor

Why don't you call our lawyer and settle things with her. Over and done with.

Our lawyer? Honey, the last person Mom settled things with ended up in a canal somewhere.


re: #320 Yank in the EU

Of the Muslims I know, and there have been a number, there is absolutely no call to assimilate. Of course. EU countries are dominated by socialism and multiculturalism. Immigrants, often Muslims with no intention of partaking in Flemish culture, receive monthly welfare checks of 1000-1500 euros and are under no pressure to respect the culture. But this is a problem with the socialist policies, and there is no necessary connection between this and turning out of fear and panic to groups like the Vlaams Belang, which would be a great error in strategy and morality.

I'm going to pick a nit perhaps. The socialist/welfare/multiculturism of Europe is one aspect. That there is no motivation to assimilate on the part of Muslim immigrants is another aspect. But I'm not sure where you are putting the emphasis. Not to say I'm sure where you should.

Much has been made of the difference in degree of Muslim assimilation in the U.S. vs. that in Europe, as tho' the U.S. is doing a better job of assimilating.

But I'm not sure I buy that. I suspect Muslims here are laying low - in relative terms - because they are not quite sure what Americans will do if they take to Pennsylvania Avenue shouting 'Alluah Akbar' while carrying signs proclaiming 'Behead all those who insult Islam'.

I'm sure, but........

340 Iron Fist  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 5:42:31pm

re: #339 wahabicorridor,


Our lawyer? Honey, the last person Mom settled things with ended up in a canal somewhere.


Now you sound like me :-)

341 wave  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 5:46:02pm

re: #188 Thanos

I've been reading Belgian forums a lot lately, that's where I've been -- Charles is correct, VB's leadership is representative of everything bad about Euro Tribal nationialist groups.

I wonder why there isn't any other party in Belgium or Flanders that could pick up the basic platform of the VB without the skeletons in the closet and questionable leadership. I've read the VB platform and it's not that deep. At least what I've seen. Not much on detail--lots on vague discussion on narrow concepts. Another tiny Flemish party mentioned here (name I can't pronounce) would seem to fit the bill, but they seem to have little following. One would think that if a smaller less suspect party would adopt a similar platform as VB, but without the baggage, and also develop a real thoughtful political platform, serious and in depth. they would take voters away from the VB and maybe folks who are currently sacred off by the VB (and so are voting with the left) but have a non-left or centrist leaning.

Pre Nazi Germany was not necessarily that Anti-Semitic. Poland, for instance had a much longer and intense anti Semitic history than Germany. Germans in the early thirties aligned with Nazism as a response to other issues and the Nazis had a well organized and politically savy strategy to grow. There was virtually no other "game in town" to "oppose the communist threat" and with a perceived plan to lift Germany out of the depression. Ordinary Germans only became anti-Semitic as the nazi party grew in stature and anti-semitism became part of the cult.

I would guess that ordinary Belgians (or Flemish) who vote VB would flock to another party if that party could organize and form some sort of leadership with a similar but more in depth platform, clean leadership and history.

342 Arbalest  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 5:46:53pm

#300 Sharmuta
“. . .superficial view . . .”

Yes and no.

Yes: Actually, no one seems to be having a problem assimilating Hindus, or Buddhists, or Sikhs, or Japanese or Uighurs or Brazilians.

No: The amount of immigration of the previously mentioned groups is reasonably small, mostly that of job seekers / new hires, and mostly legal. But for Muslims to Europe it is large, frequently by people who will need / expect to get public assistance, and frequently illegal or dubious.

343 Arbalest  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 5:48:43pm

#301 Killian Bundy

What are these "racial lines" you speak of.

As per your post #226
Again, I think the Human Genome Project states the truth quite elegantly:
DNA studies do not indicate that separate classifiable subspecies (races) exist within modern humans. While different genes for physical traits such as skin and hair color can be identified between individuals, no consistent patterns of genes across the human genome exist to distinguish one race from another. There also is no genetic basis for divisions of human ethnicity. People who have lived in the same geographic region for many generations may have some alleles in common, but no allele will be found in all members of one population and in no members of any other.
/read it over and over again until it sinks in.

Compare the bold sections to my post #292:
. . . We do not see people living in Tibet and whose family history is exclusively Tibetan (for the last 500 years or so) producing children that have all of the physical characteristics (i.e., looks identical to) of a native of Botswana. There are other examples. Therefore, I conclude that the Human Genome conclusions are incomplete.

Why do ethnic Tibetans never produce children that look like ethnic Botswanans? Could it be that a certain set of alleles are the answer?

I've detected an occasional political streak in Human Genome discussions, so I read them with a bit of care.

344 Arbalest  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 5:49:50pm

#303 Guftafs

. . . but you seem to suggest that we need to confront their racism with our own "white" brand of racism in order to survive.

No. I will suggest that stopping immigration is a partial solution. I don’t see this as racist, although it is uncomfortably close to the “racist” line. I see it as survival of the indigenous culture.

I also ask if there is an alternative to submission or allying with neo-Nazis, and I’ve suggested (and posted) a couple of times that perhaps certain influential bloggers in Europe might be told, in clear terms, that if they lose their neo-Nazi associations, anti-Jewish baggage, and generally clean up their act, then get their political parties to do the same, they might get some help from here in the US.

345 Arbalest  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 5:51:37pm

#320 Yank in the EU

To catch up:

European culture is historically and effectively “white”. To see an “all-white-people” political party in an area that has been essentially “all-white-people” for thousands of years should not be surprising or particularly alarming.

Thus, I thoroughly disagree that there should be nothing alarming about this . . . . .

Perhaps you are right, but you might have jumped to this conclusion too soon.

I'd sincerely be happy to see that demonstrated


1: Contingent truth “all-white-people” [area] for thousands of years
2: Contingent truth “all-white-people” political party [formed in that area]

Cause for alarm? Up until recently, Flanders was essentially “all white”, as there was no one else. Then there’s the theoretical possibility of a political party being created whose platforms do not interest others.

You might have understood “all-white-people” to mean “only-white-people”, and this does present a cause for alarm.


Of the Muslims I know, and there have been a number, there is absolutely no call to assimilate. Of course. EU countries are dominated by socialism and multiculturalism. Immigrants, often Muslims with no intention of partaking in Flemish culture, receive monthly welfare checks of 1000-1500 euros and are under no pressure to respect the culture.” (Bold mine)

I’ve been told this, by natives in Belgium. Initially, I did not believe it.
See next.

But this is a problem with the socialist policies, and there is no necessary connection between this and turning out of fear and panic to groups like the Vlaams Belang, which would be a great error in strategy and morality.

Apparently, many natives in Belgium see the necessity of turning to VB.

Other than suggest to influential bloggers, more than once, to lose the neo-Nazi /anti-Jewish connections, there is nothing I can do.

346 Yank in the EU  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 6:05:24pm

re: #339 wahabicorridor

In the first place, there are Muslims who assimilate and practice their religion in peace in the West and in Flanders. Along with this point, reducing nanny-state policies that promote non-assimilation would very likely aid this, along with keeping the immigration numbers very low in general, which will help assimilation and allow it to take place. Assimilation occurs when the people have to make their way in society and when the state issues strict and long-term rules for citizenship, which should mandatory for all immigrants (obviously). This also applies to Muslims.

However, I entirely agree with your point that by changing these policies we won't necessarily help the assimilation issue with Muslims in particular, since they often read their religion as prohibiting placing anything their lives above or alongside Islam. This is a great problem with which the West has yet to come to grips

Yet, if Belgium were to end socialist / multiculti policies, such as open immigration and large security checks, this would have beneficial effects on the disastrous situation that we currently experience in which immigrants find it very easy to use the benefits the state offers as the means to remain independent of the culture. This is not cancelled out by the serious problem in Muslims integrating, which seems to be a fact if we look at Schaarbeek or Brussels Molenbeek. These are small Islamic cities in which sharia law enforces strict rejection of Belgian culture. My main point above was not so much that the roots of the issue will be fully solved by only restricting immigration and limiting welfare checks, rather, first, that it will still have in theory beneficial effects on the matter regardless of the religion, and, second, that it is not necessary to turn to a group like the VB in order to deal with problem.

Unless your idea is that only deporting all Muslims will solve the problem of assimilation, in which a party like the VB may be the only solution. This is not my solution, therefore I identify problematic points that can be dealt with and call for their change. Stopping the funding for these people and highly restricting immigration will have positive effects on behalf of whatever assimilation is possible. That would be my limited claim.

347 Arbalest  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 6:05:35pm

#345 Arbalest

". . .are under no pressure to respect the culture.” (Bold mine)

Apparently there is no post-submit-button editing.

348 Yank in the EU  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 6:15:26pm

re: #345 Arbalest


1: Contingent truth “all-white-people” [area] for thousands of years
2: Contingent truth “all-white-people” political party [formed in that area]

Cause for alarm?

You are full-fledgely missing my point. The contingent fact of obversing that a people are traditionally X "race" is not necessarily cause for worry. It's a bit sketchy in the final analysis, but it seems quite common and no one should fear for that. It is the whole bit about formulating a conception of national identity that introduces "white," or whatever "race," that is an entirely different kettle of fish. I'm not sure how you are missing those sections from my post. Can you perhaps take another look at that conceptual distinction I drew several times and notice how a fatal flaw was shown to derive from the conception of nationalism that incorporates "race" or the physiological aspect of "white"?

349 Yank in the EU  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 6:18:41pm

Correction: "observing"

A post-edit button would be excellent.

I think one may be in the works, which'll be superb.

350 Highrise  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 6:24:08pm

re: #316 Sharmuta

You are doing fine in questioning bottehond and I have found it frankly enlightening to see how he responds to you and you should not be made to feel you can't. His motives to me aren't up front and it's like pulling hens teeth getting a direct answer without ad hominem coming from him....not to mention the whole sexist thing going on by on purpose referring to you as a dude when he's been corrected atleast three times in past threads.


After seeing how he operates in thread upon thread, I think he's being disingenuous and evasive in his answers. People who tend to stick up for him may see it differently, but I know you aren't alone in your perception of him.

351 wahabicorridor  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 6:28:28pm

re: #346 Yank in the EU

I disagree with nothing in your post, so I won't quote from it. But it occurs to me......

(I realize this is purely anecdotal, so I make no claim for 'universal validity'.)

You are, I think, aware, that I have lived next door to Saudis for maybe 7 years. Not always the same families. And that I encounter Muslims in my day to day activity.

These are not immigrants for the most part. We live in one of the wealthiest areas of the U.S. in an 'edge city' of Washington D.C. They are here with their respective embassasies, with the World Bank, etc.
There is an almost pathological need to assert their cultural superiority. One family came over to my house (after I gave their newborn some emerald earring studs) and gave me a gold necklace - filigre - lovely. They told me it is 22K gold that can only be acquired in Saudi Arabia. Too bad I had already purchased the same necklace at Springfield Mall from a gold jeweler from India (I won't tell you what I paid for it but it wasn't 22K). Too bad the same family had tried to ingratiate themselves with other wives in the 'hood with the same necklace and the same story.

There is 'assimilation' and there is posturing.

Also, I am loathe to draw lessons about Muslim integration in Europe and apply them to the U.S.

From what I have seen, the ummah is not homogenous. It is differentiated by country of origin, class, etc.

The Jordanian Muslims down the street loved our dog. One Saudi family didn't and acted upon it (which they lived to regret) - and another Saudi family was quite all right with her, even to the point of knocking on the door when they knew she was hospitalized to ask about our well being and to tell us they were praying for us and for her recovery.

352 wave  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 6:36:30pm

re: #350 Highrise

re: #316 Sharmuta

You are doing fine in questioning bottehond and I have found it frankly enlightening to see how he responds to you and you should not be made to feel you can't. His motives to me aren't up front and it's like pulling hens teeth getting a direct answer without ad hominem coming from him....not to mention the whole sexist thing going on by on purpose referring to you as a dude when he's been corrected atleast three times in past threads.


After seeing how he operates in thread upon thread, I think he's being disingenuous and evasive in his answers. People who tend to stick up for him may see it differently, but I know you aren't alone in your perception of him.

I wasn't certain either, but I think he clarified his position pretty satisfactorily later in the thread.

353 wahabicorridor  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 6:36:49pm

re: #316 Sharmuta

So now I'm not allowed to ask a question in an attempt to better understand another poster-

Um, dunno.........

*You answer to Charles

re: #340 Iron Fist

Now you sound like me :-)

Still better lookin' tho! (But I would not for one second put my makeup against your body art, no siree!)

354 Yank in the EU  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 6:40:34pm

re: #351 wahabicorridor

Yes, I do recognize that necklace business from past experience. Though it may appear to them that they are being truly kind and good, we may notice the force of certain morally wrong religious ideas calling on them, for instance to not trust or make friends with infidels. It's amazing when you meet a Muslim who openly admits support for offensive jihad, for example, without a sense that something wrong and bizarre is being said. I have known several MB and Hamas supporters like this: while they assert proudly their self-image as most generous, noble and welcoming, the words of Islamic supremacism neverthless roll out without a hitch. I marvel at some folks inability to hear what they say.

355 Arbalest  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 6:44:57pm

#348 Yank in the EU

I went back to my post that you commented on, which might have been too far back.

It is the whole bit about formulating a conception of national identity that introduces "white," or whatever "race,". . .

Yes, I understand your point: forming, for example, a “Hutu-only” political party in a certain part of Africa, and expressly stating that it is a “Hutu-only” political party, should be a major cause for alarm.

My original quote:

“To see an “all-white-people” political party in an area that has been essentially “all-white-people” for thousands of years should not be surprising or particularly alarming.”

is a bit short, as I assumed it would be read as a generic statement.

I will point out that there is a character limit AND just because the edit box indicated 10 characters left (with no formatting in the post), this does not mean that the same previewed comment will be accepted. I had to shorten my first post on this thread 5 or 6 times. More than a few of my original statements are severely edited.

356 Kirly  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 6:47:01pm

re: #310 dooyork

In my view Islamism is such a menace, and Europe is so far advanced towards dhimmitude, that virtually anyone who opposes the jihad should be considered an ally at this point. And, I think a resurgence of European nationalism could not possibly be as bad as an Islamic Europe would be. Naziism was a weird historical blip, which Europe survived, but Islam would mean the death of Europe as such. Once Europe is absorbed into the Muslim world, that's it. And, a Eurofascist Europe would not necessarily follow from groups like Vlaams gaining enough power to advance the anti-jihad to the degree they're able.

"weird historical blip"? did you think about how the survivors of the deathcamps would feel upon seeing that before you hit the post this comment button? how about people who lost their entire families?

Europe survived minus 20 million Europeans.. Scroll down to The Mother of All Stats.

I haven't been involved in this debate and all I really want to say to some of you is, What the hell is wrong with you people?

357 wahabicorridor  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 6:47:04pm

re: #345 Arbalest

Apparently, many natives in Belgium see the necessity of turning to VB.

On a previous thread, I was addressing 'Johnny Canuck' about my particular issues with this whole subject. Apparently he has family back in the 'old country' and is sympathetic to their fears. I understand that, but I was telling him about one of my arguments against aligning with the WN that I never got a good answer to (paraphrasing)

If you can't throw the racial surpemacists overboard when they are weak (and not an imminent threat) why do these people think they will be able to do so when they have power the anti-jihadis have helped them achieve?

He answered he didn't know, but maybe it was because the racial supremacists were the ones shouting the loudest about the Islamist threat.

That got me to thinking........perhaps the racial supremacists were the FIRST to shout about it and therefore occupied the political/cultural ground. They may have therefore sullied the whole argument for those who are not racists.

/just a thought

358 wahabicorridor  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 6:54:24pm

re: #352 wave

I wasn't certain either, but I think he clarified his position pretty satisfactorily later in the thread.

Yep. #257.

re: #354 Yank in the EU


Yes, I do recognize that necklace business from past experience. Though it may appear to them that they are being truly kind and good,

ROTFLMAO!

They did indeed and I guess I should not be surprised to find it is not uncommon.

Yank, I'm just finishing up a book "The Arab Mind" by Raphael Patai.
It has been enlightening. I'll shoot you an email. Off to finish the book and the bottle.

359 Arbalest  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 6:55:44pm

#357 wahabicorridor

You have an interesting point. Unfortunately, you might be right.

However, the Leftists/Socialists in charge of most of Europe have made a real mess of things. Even if you are right, there is still time to jettison the neo-Nazi / anti-Jewish baggage and reclaim the future of the indigenous peoples.

Perhaps some European bloggers are starting to reconsider their positions and alliances, and can get some politicians to do so as well.

360 Former Belgian  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 6:57:30pm

DerKrieger:

re: #245 Arbalest

I agree with your analysis Arbalest and from what I can tell in reading GoV it is precisely this distinction many posters there are trying to make, i.e. a party dedicated to the preservation of unique European cultures is not by definition "racist" just because its members are all white. What many Europeans are attempting to do is formal policy in non-white nations such as Japan. They purposefully restrict immigration so as to maintain their unique culture. No one would label the Japanese racist would they? Yet when Europeans seek the same level of cultural continuity they are branded "racists". Seems like a bit of a double standard to me. And I've not kept up with the positions of the various political groups, i.e VB, SD, et al so can't comment on them.

My wife lived in Japan for several years (before we met). She was apparently treated with great, if self-conscious, courtesy, but don't you think she was ever made to forget that she is 'gaijin' (non-Japanese). [At times this worked to her advantage: at one company, the male workers were told before she joined: 'Mrs. XYZ no touch!' --- groping the Japanese ladies was OK ;-)]

And let's not get into the subject of how Imperial Japan treated the Chinese during WW II (look up "rape of Nanking" for starters), of Korean "comfort women", or for that matter the place of Koreans in Japanese society afterwards. [Their contemptible treatment of prisoners was apparently without regard to race --- they were expecting the same treatment if taken prisoner.]

The idea that racism is something unique to white Westerners is PC tripe, pure and simple. (Try living as a black person in an Arab [not the same as Islamic] country...)

Needless to say, "if your neighbor jumps from the window that doesn't mean it's the right thing for you to do" (Dutch expression)... ;-)

361 OlaDunk  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 7:02:22pm

re: #145 Charles

Cause I disagree with the political analyse given here.
There are great problems with immigration in many european countries. The likes of Øyvind Strømmen does not wan´t to admit it. They, the leftists, rather brand citizens with opposing view racist and facist.
Lgf should readers should be aware that the majority of political violence and murders in Europe is commited by extreme leftists.
It was a green party member who killed Pim Fortuyn.

362 Former Belgian  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 7:07:03pm

re: #351 wahabicorridor

They told me it is 22K gold that can only be acquired in Saudi Arabia. Too bad I had already purchased the same necklace at Springfield Mall from a gold jeweler from India (I won't tell you what I paid for it but it wasn't 22K).

I guess he meant 22 carat gold (i.e., about 92% pure). This page states that 22 carat jewelry is commonly available in both the Gulf states and the Indian subcontinent. (In most Western countries, goldsmiths generally prefer to work in 18 carat (3/4 pure).

FYI, 24-carat gold is so malleable that jewelry made in it probably wouldn't last long ;-) 18-carat alloys are a lot harder and objects made in it a lot more durable.

363 Yank in the EU  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 7:13:33pm

re: #355 Arbalest


Yes, I understand your point: forming, for example, a “Hutu-only” political party in a certain part of Africa, and expressly stating that it is a “Hutu-only” political party, should be a major cause for alarm.

No, that wouldn't be quite the point, even still. It's not necessary for a party to include the very egregious "only" word in their conception of nationalism for it to contain a fundamental, dangerous flaw; it is sufficient that they bring in "race," or whatever happens to be the intrinsically exclusive, physiological element, which can't be changed or determined by the person, into their conception of nationalism. Thus, to frame it negatively and conversely, if this "ethnicity" can be determined by the freedom of the person, such as in a conversion, we are not talking about racial nationalism.

So, I have explained how such a benign, factual observation, as discussed, can be transformed into something quite wrong and dangerous by formulating the idea of nationalism on the basis of the criterion of "race," such as "white." Namely, even if they say 'we will allow other races to exist here', the principle is neverthless introduced at the very core that the ideal for the nation is a homogeneously racial one; that distinguishes by a reduction to physiology certain people on the basis of race from the primary group, regardless of their values and character. Hence "racialism," as some opt to call their white nationalist ideology, analytically reduces to racism, in the most literal, dictionary sense, for 'other' people in the nation are distinguished not by their values, ideas, character, etc. but on the reductive basis being, e.g., non-white.

Racial nationalism is a flawed principle in its core and the basic notion of distinguishing people even in theory according to "race" in the formulation of nationalism has been at the root of much evil.

364 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 7:15:20pm

re: #353 wahabicorridor

Yes- at the end of the day- we answer to Charles for our behavior here, since it's his house. This does not mean, however, that we cannot ask questions of others in attempts to understand or further the conversation- in fact- it defeats the purpose if we can't. But go ahead and cling to this post of mine. I'll make sure you adhere to it, if you persist in thinking that somehow means I or others cannot ask questions of other posters- then you can't either. Nice attempt to misconstrue my post though.

365 Yank in the EU  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 7:27:13pm

re: #360 Former Belgian

a party dedicated to the preservation of unique European cultures is not by definition "racist" just because its members are all white.

Of course not, and it would be quite foolish to argue such a thing. It is, rather, when the conception of nationalism introduces 'race' or some physiological criterion that the ideology becomes problematic; it is most obviously seen in the BNP who claim 'we aim to preserve the white race'.

What many Europeans are attempting to do is formal policy in non-white nations such as Japan. They purposefully restrict immigration so as to maintain their unique culture.

As you have formulated it here, there is only 'preservation of culture' and no mention is needed at all about keeping the state 'racially pure' or limiting non-whites. Thus, the introduction of racial nationalism by European groups such as the VB, the NPD, the Front National, etc. is quite unnecessary and in fact is flawed in principle. Moreover, from what I have been told, and I intend no disrespect to people of Asia, racism is often open and quite common in China, Korea, Japan, etc. often to the same explicit degree we see with white nationalists. I would strongly oppose the idea of giving European racial nationalists a pass because we see that same ideology in other cultures. This makes little sense; racial nationalism is flawed through itself.

366 Yank in the EU  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 7:29:39pm

re: #358 wahabicorridor

Ok, sounds great. Looking forward to the e-mail. Night!

367 Former Belgian  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 7:32:48pm

re: #365 Yank in the EU

re: #360 Former Belgian

a party dedicated to the preservation of unique European cultures is not by definition "racist" just because its members are all white.

Of course not, and it would be quite foolish to argue such a thing. It is, rather, when the conception of nationalism introduces 'race' or some physiological criterion that the ideology becomes problematic; it is most obviously seen in the BNP who claim 'we aim to preserve the white race'.

What many Europeans are attempting to do is formal policy in non-white nations such as Japan. They purposefully restrict immigration so as to maintain their unique culture.

As you have formulated it here, there is only 'preservation of culture' and no mention is needed at all about keeping the state 'racially pure' or limiting non-whites. Thus, the introduction of racial nationalism by European groups such as the VB, the NPD, the Front National, etc. is quite unnecessary and in fact is flawed in principle. Moreover, from what I have been told, and I intend no disrespect to people of Asia, racism is often open and quite common in China, Korea, Japan, etc. often to the same explicit degree we see with white nationalists. I would strongly oppose the idea of giving European racial nationalists a pass because we see that same ideology in other cultures. This makes little sense; racial nationalism is flawed through itself.

Actually, you were replying to a quote from Arbalest, not to me --- something went awry with the blockquote tags ;-)

368 EE  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 7:36:49pm

In Babba Zee's excellent collection of materials shining a light on the European Odin's Cross movement, there is a drawing of people raising a flag with an Odin's Cross on it. There is the statement under the drawing
Morgen de Nieuwe ORDENING!
promising the imminent arrival (in the morning, that is, tomorrow) of the New ORDER!

Interestingly, New Order was what Hitler said he was going to provide for Europe. Here is an article on Hitler's concept of a New Order for Europe.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

From the above link:

New Order (Neuordnung) is the name used to denote the political, economic, and social system which the Nazis hoped to establish in Europe in the 1930s and 1940s.
369 Yank in the EU  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 7:38:43pm

re: #367 Former Belgian

Ah ha! Wow, thanks for the correction FB.

Get yer quotes right, gol'dangit ;)

370 Arbalest  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 8:11:30pm

#363 Yank in the EU

I take it then that:

Racial nationalism is a flawed principle in its core and the basic notion of distinguishing people even in theory according to "race" in the formulation of nationalism has been at the root of much evil.

is the general point you’ve been trying to make.

We do seem, then, to have narrowed the scope down, after having discussed various examples and instances, but it seems that we’ve arrived at discussing a small subset of Western Culture and Values.


Is your post #365 directed at Der Krieger, perhaps?.

371 Yank in the EU  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 8:17:32pm

re: #370 Arbalest

Indeed. That is the bottom line. Or, that the ideology of 'racialism' reduces conceptually and necessarily to a literal form of 'racism' works as well.

Hm, yes, it may have been Der Krieger but I am sure he has left, as the hour is very late (or early) in Europe.

372 dooyork  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 8:35:07pm

re: #338 Pastorius

Dooyork,

I know you, don't I?

Yep, we just had this conversation.

re: #322 Sharmuta

re: #310 dooyork

Should Vlaams be considered an ally in the anti-jihad?

In a word- no.

Oh, ok, you convinced me. Thanks for that exegesis.

re: #326 rightymouse

re: #310 dooyork

The questions you ask have been answered here by Charles and other posters.

Some posters have given their opinions, and explained them intelligently, which is terrific; but, I'm more interested in knowing what Charles thinks about the substantive issues. That's why I addressed my first comment to "Charles," rather than "Charles and Rightymouse"; and when I mentioned the notable bloggers who I feel are currently squabbling about peripheral issues without reaching the substantive issue, I listed Fjordman, Atlas, Gates of Vienna, and Pastorius of CUANAS and IBA. I did not list Rightymouse.

373 dooyork  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 8:58:32pm

re: #356 Kirly

re: #310 dooyork

...Naziism was a weird historical blip....

...did you think about how the survivors of the deathcamps would feel upon seeing that before you hit the post this comment button? how about people who lost their entire families?...

My point is that a Europe subsumed into the Muslim world is a worse scenario than a still "European" Europe run by Nazis. Do I like either situation? Of course not. That's why I called it a lesser-of-two-evils scenario. The question should be asked though, because it's kind of relevant to the main topic, which is whether Nazi-sympathizing/connected groups like VB should be considered allies in the counter-jihad or not.

In particular as regards my comment above, my opinion is that Islam is worse because it's permanent. It has been there all along, hovering on the horizon like lurking death, and several times through history Islam was held at bay, otherwise there would be no Europe as we know it; plus, as to just about any spot on the planet that falls to Islam, there is no going back, that's it, it's Muslim for good. Once Europe falls to Islam, that's it, no more Europe. Naziism was a weird, occult-based, ideology that sprung up in a relatively short span of years, caused massive devastation, and was then thoroughly discredited, with Europe still surviving. Compared to Islam, yes, Naziism was a weird historical blip. It's not coming back in any form even remotely approaching WWII era Naziism. That's why I say Islam is worse, and certainly at this moment in history the real threat is Islam, not Nazis. As for the numbers you cite, I wouldn't even know how to come up with a statistic for the number of Jews and other non-Muslims killed through the centuries due to the spread of Islam. My guess though is that Islam has done more damage than the Nazis did in WWII.

The good news is that we're not really faced with that stark choice, since hopefully mainstream non-fascist European politicians will wake up to the danger of Islamization. Pim Fortuyn is the ideal. And, in the unlikely scenario that ethnic nationalist groups like VB took power, I can't see anything remotely approaching the devastation to Jews and other minority groups caused by the Nazis happening again. Despite what Hollywood thinks, Islam is currently the real threat, not Nazis.

374 Killian Bundy  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 9:43:33pm

re: #343 Arbalest

Why do ethnic Tibetans never produce children that look like ethnic Botswanans?

The same reason they don't look like chimpanzees, although they share more than 99% of common DNA.

I've detected an occasional political streak in Human Genome discussions, so I read them with a bit of care.

You have, have you?

/well, well, well

375 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 9:52:16pm

dooyork- your question is intellectually dishonest and an attempted "gottcha", imo, so good luck in getting a response. As to what rightymouse said- it's true that Charles has made numerous comments on this issue, so if you are indeed interested in what Charles thinks on the "substantive issues", you can search for them.

The question should be asked though, because it's kind of relevant to the main topic, which is whether Nazi-sympathizing/connected groups like VB should be considered allies in the counter-jihad or not.

Again- in a word- no. If you'd like to read an "exegesis" on this topic, I suggest you read all the previous posts and comments on the matter where many LGFers have posted the reasons many of us feel the answer is indeed "no". The answers you seek are out there- previously discussed- so don't let us keep you from your reading.

376 Amillennialist  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:32:44pm

Fjordman is right that Islam seeks to dominate all mankind (including Europe):

"Allah's Apostle said: 'I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle . . . '" (Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24).

Charles is right that allying with racists is immoral and counter-productive.

Dooyork is right that Islam has been warring against Europe since it first exploded out of Arabia and into Spain, Byzantium, Greece, Sicily, Eastern Europe, Russia, etc., after Mohammed's death.

That we were unaware of the threat until 9/11 reflects only Islam's recent impotence (relative to European military superiority) and our self-centered ignorance of our own history dealing with jihad and the contemporary suffering of non-Western peoples under the tyranny of Allah.

As for numbers, one estimate I read of Hindus slaughtered by the jihad in India alone was 70-80 million. This does not account for the millions of Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, animists, and pagans of the Middle East, Europe, Africa, and Asia butchered or enslaved by Islam.

377 Render  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:34:09pm

re: #373 dooyork

Allow me...

The historical WW2 era nazi's are only a "blip" in Europe's long history because they were overwhelmingly defeated in a war that laid waste to most of the Continent. The nazi's, who called their rule the "thousand year reich," hardly intended it to be a mere "blip."

The genocide of an entire religion and the wholesale ethnic cleansing of an entire continent that the nazi's attempted in the mid 20th century was so abhorrent, so evil, that it cannot ever be allowed to happen again. (Never Again)

But as far as blips in Europe go, it really wasn't anything all that new, was it? In fact, the only thing that differentiates the Third Retch from all the other anti-Jew pogroms throughout European history, was the size, scale, and brutal efficiency of the nazi death machine.

Given the current rise in strength of the neo-nazi and white nationalist groups world-wide since 2004, they obviously haven't been discredited enough.

Vlaams Belang is in the exact same political spot that the NSDAP sat in, back in 1923. Just one major political crisis away from legitimacy and eventual power.

VB, like each of the various respective national, (Both European and US based), neo-nazi groups, will do anything in it's power to benefit from such a political crisis.

VB will go to great lengths to create or otherwise contribute toward creating such a political crisis, (the break-up of Belgium, the hijacking of the SOIE demonstration), when an existing crisis, (political Islam, unchecked immigration), cannot be otherwise found to exploit.

The chief propagandist of VB, their very own version of Joseph Goebbels, has done a masterful job of fooling some otherwise very intelligent people, on both sides of the Atlantic.

Until now.

HAPPY
HANUKKAH
MFER'S,
R

378 Arbalest  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:49:21pm

#374 Killian Bundy

The same reason they don't look like chimpanzees, although they share more than 99% of common DNA

But there’s that 1% difference . . . . . .


From your post #226 linking the Human Genome Project:

There also is no genetic basis for divisions of human ethnicity.

Here there is no 1% difference, yet, for better of for worse, the differences are plain enough for all to see.

So, do we disbelieve the things (reproduceable results) that are plain for all to see, or do we question the experts, and point out to them that there seems to be a flaw in their claims (or a political angle, sort of like The Goracle when pontificating on Global Warming)?

Personally, I’d leave the Human Genome Project out, as politics and DNA don't mix well.

379 A. van Hilten  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:56:55pm

Charles says:

(Notice that to Fjordman, questioning Bat Ye’or’s Eurabia theory is now labeled “denial,” akin to Holocaust denial. It’s reminiscent of the global warming crowd’s quest to label critics “deniers.” Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with the theory that there is a conspiracy at the highest levels to “Arabize” Europe, it’s a totalitarian tactic to label critics “deniers,” as if the theory were an objective proven fact, above criticism.)

Not only is it a "totalitarian tactic" meant to stifle dissent, it's actually much worse than that—it's also a way to trivialize the Shoa putting those who engage in Holocaust denial (the Holocaust being a proven fact) on a par with those who question mere theories.

380 Killian Bundy  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:15:09pm

re: #378 Arbalest

But there’s that 1% difference

That's what makes every human unique unto the species, je repet, the species. You're having trouble grasping the fact that there are no human sub-species.

/I'm sorry, if you're selling the Human Genome Project as the equivalent of global warming, I'm not buying it

381 Arbalest  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:40:18pm

#380 Killian Bundy

The "1% difference" (or whatever it is exactly) is between humans and chimps.

You're having trouble grasping the fact that there are no human sub-species.

Au contraire, the facts that just about every human male can breed with just about every fertile human female and produce viable offspring, also are also capable of reproducing, etc., and that this has been true for at least the past 6000 years of recorded human history, seems satisfactory proof that there are no human sub-species.

. . . if you're selling the Human Genome Project as the equivalent of global warming, I'm not buying.

No. I saw a video not too long ago where a “scientist” that made the claim that 2 unrelated men (one black, one white) were more closely related than one of the guys to his (full) sister (in the scientist’s opinion). There was a reference to the Human Genome Project in the video segment.

If this sort of claim is supported and approved by the HGP, then they need to do some serious ‘splainin’, because this comes across as pure politics.

Further, everyone sees what we call "racial" characteristics in people, that are passed on from parents to children. We also see that they do not suddenly change; ethnic Koreams do not suddenly produce children that look like ethnic Mayans. These things have been known for thousands of years. If the HGP finds no evidence, or contradicts, these known facts, then the research is incomplete.

382 Render  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:42:05pm

Gates of Vienna links to Lawrence Auster's racial superiority website View From the Right/Amnation. What are we to make of that linkage?

Paul Belien and Brussels Journal are still linking to racial supremacist Peter Brimelow's VDare website, which on occasion publishes Paul Beliens propaganda pieces. What are we to make of that linkage?

VDare and View From the Right both link to and publish works from Holocaust denier Kevin MacDonald and racial supremacist/Holocaust denier Jared Taylor. What are we to make of those links?

Kevin MacDonald testified on behalf of David Irving and Jared Taylor has been a known David Duke minion and fellow Holocaust denier for quite some time. What are we to make of those links?

That is...If we're going to be complaining about links and suchlike...

ARE
WE?,
R

383 Killian Bundy  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:49:11pm

re: #381 Arbalest

So Koreans are a sub-species of humanity, is that what you're saying?

/'cause it sure sound like that's what you're saying

384 Arbalest  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:56:38pm

#383 Killian Bundy

So Koreans are a sub-species of humanity, is that what you're saying?”
/'cause it sure sound like that's what you're saying”

Kindly re-read my post #381.

Read the one sentence starting at “Au contraire”, aloud if necessary, so you can hear how they sound.

My words are written in clear English.

385 Killian Bundy  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 12:03:38am

re: #384 Arbalest

So, what's your point? Genetically, there's either "races" or there's not.

Again, I advise you to look elsewhere to explain differences in human behavior.

/just trying to nail down the scientific taxonomy here, there's no substitute for precision

386 Arbalest  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 12:21:46am

#385 Killian Bundy

Again, I advise you to look elsewhere to explain differences in human behavior. ” (my bold)

Very well, in the interests of “nail[ing] down the scientific taxonomy”,

(behavior) != (physical appearance and characteristics)


/ (behavior) is not equal to (physical appearance and characteristics)

// They're different things.

/// I’ve spent the past several posts and couple of hours sssuming that we were discussing “(physical appearance and characteristics)”, things that are passed from parent to child via “genetics”: DNA, chromosomes and icky stuff, not “behavior”: something that is “learned”, “dictated by culture”, etc.

//// Was there a topic change, or another round, around 9:00PM Sunday night that no one told me about (it’s now about 12:12AM Monday morning)?

387 Killian Bundy  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 12:30:37am

re: #386 Arbalest

Very good, you caught ommission. Now, which is more important, physical appearance or behavior?

/one is inherited, the other one is strictly learned, we're not that far apart, you obviously understand that there is a difference

388 oslogin  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 12:34:43am

"wrong by ignorance, stupidity or Zionist paranoïd?"

I don´t care why she is wrong. What matters is that she is wrong. Her analysis is flawed, some of her sources are doubtful, others are quoted dishonestly. To me it seems like she has been out to prove a thesis and that she has disregarded evidence that could undermine this thesis.

"You are pretty ignorant of the strategic genious of islamists, dude"

Okay. All I am saying is that because Yusuf wants to invade Europe that does not mean the European Union is letting him... it takes more for liberal democracy to die than a bearded guy saying "Boo!".

"www.aivd.nl"

I have read several AIVD reports, including the one mentioned above; and have debated it in Norwegian. If you can not point to where this report states that the Eurabia conspiracy theory is based on facts, I fail to see your argument.

"You say you know better than the entire Dutch intelligence office?"

I say that you are dishonest in how you present the opinions of AIVD, and I notice you have still not put facts on the table establishing what the AIVD has said that confirms the theories concerning - amongst other things - EAD in Bat Ye´ors, book. If I´m a featherweight, that should not be that tricky, bro´

389 bottehond  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 12:41:25am

re: #178 wahabicorridor

Scusi, I missed that one. Doekle Terpstra used to be frontman of the christian trade- union. He called Geert Wilders and his party "evil that has to be stopped". He claimed he had huge support from all over the Netherlands and that truckloads of well known Dutch had called him over the weekend. It turned out he had been calling people himself all weekend and virtually no-one supports him, mainly muslim-organisations. He is also in the board of Unilever, who claimed to had nothing to do with doekles action.

390 Killian Bundy  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 12:43:53am

Just to be crystal clear, there is no genetic component to behavior, measured accross populations.

/look elsewhere as to why certain population clusters are hopelessly [expletive deleted] up

391 Arbalest  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 12:48:16am

#387 Killian Bundy

As per my post 292 on this thread
Concern with “evil iintentions” is more important then “their genetic code”

Re-arranging to answer your current question: behavior


But this puts us back to where we were 8 hours ago.

What point are you trying to make that has not been made in the last 8 hours?

392 oslogin  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 12:52:09am

"Close to fascism? According to whom?"

According to me :) - and I have backed up my claims with a number of examples. Hey, I have even written a book about it.

"I think socialist and communist parties get many votes. You call them fascists?"

No, I don´t. Because the errors of Marxism aside, they are not fascists. That does not make Marxist thinking democratic or anti-totalitarian, but "fascism" is a specific ideological concept, and not a general derogatory term.

"Green Parties are extreme left all over Europe"

I´m a Green, and I´m hardly the kind of extreme leftist you suggest. But yes, there are Green fanatics, too. Not to speak of many socalled animal rights activists. There are even ecofascists, not only in the Belgian grouplet Groen Rechts. So what? It hardly changes the facts that Charles, myself, and many others have provided on the Vlaams Belang? And I´m hardly aligned with Volkert van de Graaf.

"Fritz Perls ones said: in the end you become what you fight".

That might be true for more people than anti-fascists.

"Green and Leftwing parties are marching against virtually non- existent fascism"

Vlaams Belang is a fascist party. It gets somewhere close to a fifth of the votes in Flanders - in some places over 30%. That is hardly non-existent. Front National is a fascist party. Its presidential candidate qualified for the second round in French elections some years back. That is hardly non-existent. Ataka´s candidate in the Bulgarian elections also qualified for the second round. He´s a notorious anti-Semite who has had comfortable conversation with VB-politicians and who also has been going to conferences together with Ahmed Rami and David Duke. His electoral results show that fascism is hardly non-existent there either.

I´m glad I live in a country where fascism is largely non-existent, Norway. And while that is true in several European countries (the BNP has never managed to gain many votes, the fascists in the Netherlands are negligible, etc), I still may only conclude that if Green and left-wing parties march against fascism: good for them!

It´s the people who choose not to march against fascism, but rather to march together with it, I have a problem with. Marching is not necessary, by the way. Defending fascists is more than enough.

And yes, that applies when the Belgian PvdA joined hands with AEL (the Arab European League), as well. AEL might not be fascist, but they are definitely reactionary and hardly the most democratic movement around.

393 Killian Bundy  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 12:57:00am

re: #391 Arbalest

You're the one claiming that there are seperate human "races". The scientific evidence doesn't support that conclusion.

/genetically, physical appearance is strictly cosmetic, of no overall consequence, nothing more, nothing less

394 guftafs  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 1:19:44am

re: #345 Arbalest

#320 Yank in the EU

To catch up:

European culture is historically and effectively “white”. To see an “all-white-people” political party in an area that has been essentially “all-white-people” for thousands of years should not be surprising or particularly alarming.

What significance does the fact have that European culture historically was created by white people? It does not affect other non-white people's understanding and appreciation of it. It does not elevate the status of their biological ancestors; they, like everybody else, have to learn to appreciate it, something that sadly is becoming increasingly rarer in Europe. Referring to culture as having colour ties culture with ethnicity, culture with birth, culture with innate qualities.

The beauty and incomparable strength of Western culture is that it ultimately draws no distinctions by colour. It appeals to the faculty all men have in common: reason.

395 guftafs  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 1:41:49am

re: #344 Arbalest

#303 Guftafs

. . . but you seem to suggest that we need to confront their racism with our own "white" brand of racism in order to survive.

No. I will suggest that stopping immigration is a partial solution. I don’t see this as racist, although it is uncomfortably close to the “racist” line. I see it as survival of the indigenous culture.

I also ask if there is an alternative to submission or allying with neo-Nazis, and I’ve suggested (and posted) a couple of times that perhaps certain influential bloggers in Europe might be told, in clear terms, that if they lose their neo-Nazi associations, anti-Jewish baggage, and generally clean up their act, then get their political parties to do the same, they might get some help from here in the US.

There's no need (and no means, I suspect) to tell certain influental bloggers in Europe anything. They're grown-ups. If they want to connect with racists, by all means. Only they shouldn't whine when they are judged accordingly by people with more discretion. That's juvenile.

In answer to your question: neither. Instead fight the war.

396 Arbalest  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 2:07:57am

#394 & #395 Guftafs

What significance does the fact have that European culture historically was created by white people?

The significance is that there is a possibility that Europe will be subjugated, not by force, but because it was not allowed to defend itself. It is very un-PC for Europeans to defend themselves.

The beauty and incomparable strength of Western culture is that it ultimately draws no distinctions by colour. It appeals to the faculty all men have in common: reason.

Agreed, and I essentially said so in my post #245


There's no need (and no means, I suspect) to tell certain influental bloggers in Europe anything.

I have this feeling that Fjordman, Baron B, et al, are simply not listening to the right people, and that clear words, and maybe a session with a belt, would fix things. But I see that Fjordman has linked to some problem blogs, so you may be right. I dislike giving up this easily. It just seems like something can be saved. But there is still time.

397 Arbalest  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 2:12:13am

It looks like we can finally resolve this discussion, and hand the thread over to the over-night crew.

#390 Killian Bundy

Just to be crystal clear, there is no genetic component to behavior,. . . .

You keep bring this up, and I don’t know why.

This issue / comparison / whatever seems to be a derived conclusion; The Europeans might behave mostly one way, and the various immigrants might behave mostly another, but there has been no linkage, express or implied (at least in my posts) between genetics and behavior until post #390 (not one of my posts).


#393 Killian Bundy

First, the scientific evidence doesn't support any claim of separate human sub-species. But this has been clear for thousands of years.

As for different “races”, well, this is a self-evident observation of human existence, and has been for thousands of years. If the HGP cannot explain the obvious, then the HGP is incomplete.

But perhaps if the HGP were to state a conclusion of the form “certain groups / combinations of alleles produce people who look a certain way; other groups / combinations produce a different result. Not all humans have all allele groups / combinations, and groups of humans tend to keep and pass on their allele groups combinations, leading to identifiable distinctions that humans call “race” ”, this might explain the human differences we associate with “race”.

But I’m not a geneticist, so I could easily be quite wrong on this speculation

/genetically, physical appearance is strictly cosmetic, of no overall consequence, nothing more, nothing less

Is anyone saying anything different (or even anything at all)?


Now let’s wrap this up, at least until morning.

This thread, and any thread dealing with VB and the possible Islamization of Europe is bound to be neck deep in “race”. This makes the topic rather hot.

We can discuss the issues in a PC mode, and achieve nothing, or we can take some risks and post close to the line of acceptability. My posts stand on their own, and are not over the line. If you or anyone else feels differently, say so, show the instance, and report it. If the powers-that-be agree, my posts will be deleted, and I’ll be banned.

My reputation is important, but I am more or less anonymous and their reputation is more important.

There is some importance to this discussion; this is how grass-roots movements are started. Winning the California lottery seems much more likely to happen, but there is a small chance that the result of one of these discussions might be to get some sense into the heads of the various bloggers and politicians in Europe, and get them to clean up their act. Unlikely, but perhaps worth a shot.

But I'm inclined to recommend, as others have before me, to wind down the VB/ GoV/ etc. threads. They offer damage potential with little return.

398 MigueldowninMexico  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 2:12:50am

re: #390 Killian Bundy

Just to be crystal clear, there is no genetic component to behavior, measured accross populations.

/look elsewhere as to why certain population clusters are hopelessly [expletive deleted] up

Darn, and here I was thinking that all Mexicans are treacherous, lying and lazy because their genes are geared that way!

/Runs out to ROGL (G is for the grass in the yard).

399 bottehond  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 2:25:48am

#388 oslogin 12/10/07 12:34:43


"wrong by ignorance, stupidity or Zionist parano?"

I don?t care why she is wrong. What matters is that she is wrong. Her analysis is flawed, some of her sources are doubtful, others are quoted dishonestly. To me it seems like she has been out to prove a thesis and that she has disregarded evidence that could undermine this thesis.

* I think it is relevant why Bat Ye Or would be lying. I am surprised you apparently consider this question irrelevant. I don't.

"You are pretty ignorant of the strategic genius of islamists, dude"

Okay. All I am saying is that because Yusuf wants to invade Europe that does not mean the European Union is letting him... it takes more for liberal democracy to die than a bearded guy saying "Boo!".

* You might want to read Bat Ye Ors other book on dhimmitude. Yes: it does take more than that, it takes self- islamization and islam- appeasing out of fear, lack of intellectual courage and trading in Freedom because the death cult demands more space. It takes museum directors refusing : islam"insulting" art. ...... Denying islamization helps too!

(quote)
/ ..... and I notice you have still not put facts on the table establishing what the AIVD has said that confirms the theories concerning - amongst other things - EAD in Bat Ye?ors, book.
If I?m a featherweight, that should not be that tricky, bro?

* It seems to me you are building smokescreens here. In referring to the aivd I was asking you where you stand on the islamization- issue. If you discard Bat Ye Or, the next step would be to claim islamization is a conspiracy theory too. Which it isn't.

Your next step would be: why would anyone create a conspiracy theory about islamization/ Eurabia? A conspiracy theory is always a lie, a manipulation of facts in order to achieve something.
What could those evil islamization-conspiracy- theorists be after and why? Aha: they must be fascists and racists, exploiting those conspiracy theories ( also the one by ignorant Bat Ye Or) to establish their fascist power over Europe. Using islam as the scape goat. I am worried about you and your motives. It seems to me you are after Bat Ye Ors integrity scalp to sustain your own theory on conspiracies by nazies and/or fascists. Conveniently LGF and European islam-watchers are having a lively debate on counter jihad and fascism issues. The fact that apparently some neo-nazi-linked groups are trying to hijack the counter- jihad for their own hidden agenda is obvious. But that is a different issue than the islamization- question. That is why I ask you my questions. Fair enough or not?

400 Killian Bundy  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 2:34:36am

re: #397 Arbalest

As for different “races”, well, this is a self-evident observation of human existence, and has been for thousands of years. If the HGP cannot explain the obvious, then the HGP is incomplete.

There are no genetic "races" That's the whole point, forest/trees. What you perceive as a "race" has no statistically significant foothold in genetic reality. If you can prove otherwise, then you have identified a human sub-species and that would be news. I would bang my head against the wall, but that would be counterproductive.

/oh well, so much perfectly good money down the drain

401 bottehond  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 2:35:37am

@ oslogin


I am off to work. One more quote from your post:


"I still may only conclude that if Green and left-wing parties march against fascism: good for them! "

Good for them, indeed, I sympathize with that. The problem with green and left-wing parties is they are kind of blind to islamo- fascism. They might agree that there is some fascism in islam and among the muslim- population, but they usually deny the magnitude of islamization. That is my point.


* Cheers *

402 MigueldowninMexico  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 2:41:30am

Oh my goodness!
I'm reading that thread over at GoV and the strongest impression I'm getting, is the disappointment to see several ex-lizards attacking Charles and LGF, sometimes even in a vicious manner. Charles has always been such a great host, providing this site for all well-mented people to partake, and many of those I mentioned before were here taking advantage of it all, including lizards' friendship or at least amenable interchanges. That is the thing that pains me the more in a thread that is full of painful things to read.
One of the "banees" a very well known and liked poster on LGF once, is now hurling all kinds of crap at Charles, even calling him by femenine names; which is so lowly!
Whatever happened to you guys?

/Some banned folks have been decent with their comments, but they are precious few.

403 guftafs  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 3:07:10am

re: #396 Arbalest

#394 & #395 Guftafs

What significance does the fact have that European culture historically was created by white people?

The significance is that there is a possibility that Europe will be subjugated, not by force, but because it was not allowed to defend itself. It is very un-PC for Europeans to defend themselves.

The beauty and incomparable strength of Western culture is that it ultimately draws no distinctions by colour. It appeals to the faculty all men have in common: reason.

Agreed, and I essentially said so in my post #245


There's no need (and no means, I suspect) to tell certain influental bloggers in Europe anything.

I have this feeling that Fjordman, Baron B, et al, are simply not listening to the right people, and that clear words, and maybe a session with a belt, would fix things. But I see that Fjordman has linked to some problem blogs, so you may be right. I dislike giving up this easily. It just seems like something can be saved. But there is still time.

So because multi-culturalism and political correctness is an expression of racism directed at white people you want to counter that by stating that European culture was created by white people? You want to defeat a wrong, PC ("everything white is evil"), by choosing the flip-side of that error ("it has to be white to be good")? How is that going to accomplish anything but attract the wrong kind of people? Both statements are wrong. Not gonna work.

Who cares what they think? As long as they insist, refuting their lies is all you can do. Notice that they and their apologists are the ones wanting to "fix" things. They want "truces", "compromises", "understandings". It shows they need our side to gain more respectability for them and Vlaams Belang. Fuggedaboudit.

404 guftafs  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 3:49:57am

re: #403 guftafs

To clarify my last point. Fjordman, BJ, GoV have made themselves irrelevant to the cause of destroying the Islamic threat while preserving our freedom. This is not something forced upon them. They'll claim circumstances "force" them to do what they do but they (1) scare-monger to rationalize their behaviour (2) evade and lie when pressed about uncomfortable facts.

Rather, they prove with every new post their commitment to a cause that is wrong, evil and destructive. Who needs them?

405 oslogin  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 4:38:22am

re: #399 bottehond

"Why would anyone create a conspiracy theory about islamization/ Eurabia?"

Why indeed? Why would anyone create a conspiracy theory saying that the American government was behind 911, and that this was done in order to promote a new, totalitarian world order? Why would anyone claim the Jesuites are actually ruling Norway (yes, some people do!)? Why would anyone insist that Bush is a - and no, I´m not talking about the LFG variety - lizard?

I´m not in their heads. I don´t know why. I don´t even care to know why. In some cases, I think I prefer to NOT know why. All I care about is identifying such conspiracy theories as what they are: intellectual rubbish. And that goes for the Eurabia-conspiracy as well.

Besides, I´m still angry because she didn´t include the Illuminati. I can´t stand conspiracy theories without the Illuminati. Those theories at least make for good literature. And maybe for a good Hollywood movie.

406 epaminondas  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 4:40:51am

Charles,
Why don't we just let this thing just DIE?
If DeWinter and VB are really the CCC, we'll find out. They won't be able to help themselves. Just as Stormfront, Strom Thurmond and others CAN'T/COULDN'T HELP THEMSELVES. If it's about white europe, and therefore anti jihadism is a part of that, we'll all see it, plainly. It will be as plain as the difference between those who want a secure border and those who want no latinos to BECOME americans via legal means.

In the meantime personal enmity is growing and not just between you and the Baron et al.

It is misdirected effort, and energy. IMHO, at THIS point.
No minds will change any more. We all know where we stand.
Why not just stop?

If there IS news, just post with no personal comment.
Give it a try. See what happens over a week or two.

407 oslogin  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 4:42:53am

re: #399 bottehond

"I am worried about you and your motives".

Good. I´d like to encourage such scepticism. In fact, I´d like to encourage you to scrutinize my sources, and to do independent research into the dark abyss of European neo-fascism. Or to fact-check information in Bat Ye´ors book, or - for that matter - in the books of Fallaci.

Do a bit of proper fisking, ´ey? I can highly recommend it.

408 Salamantis  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 5:14:33am

I take back my plussing of post #303; I did not notice the 'devouring everything non-white thereafter ' racism in it. Thank you, #312, for bringing it to my attention.

409 Salamantis  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 5:20:06am

Upon second reading, #303 is deploring the prospect of fascism engaging in such an extermination of non-white ethnicities. (S)he was not engaging in racial cleansing, so much as warning against it, should such loathsome people prevail. I take back my take-back...;~)

410 gambini  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 6:14:52am

re: #91 Pro-Bush Canuck

re: #85 Killian Bundy

The one thing that few people take into account is that explosive population growth is tapering of globally. Mexico for example will actually begin to contract within 10 years, and that will drastically reduce the illegal immigration problem in the US as labor becomes scarce at home.

Those Muslims in Europe are reproducing at a high rate now, but there is no reason to believe that will necessarily continue. Muslims in Canada tend to be far more integrated (less ghettoized) than those in Europe, and while their family sizes are larger than the typical atheist Canadian, they aren't excessively large.

It simply becomes too expensive to have 5-6 kids in these societies. Simple economics will eventually curb the explosive growth patterns, and this is something I believe Mark Steyn and others do not understand well enough.

Actually, the fertility rate is falling fast in many Arabic countries, and in North Africa particularly. They may catch the european trend in some years. And in one decade or two, when the median age rises above 30, the migratory pressure will disappear.

here are some figures:
Fertility rate of some muslim countries:
http://www.airninja.com/worldfacts/FertilityRateOf Nations.htm

I am going to report here only the countries where most Muslims in Europe come from:

Tunisia:1.73
Algeria: 1.86
Turkey: 1.89
Morocco: 2.62
Iran: 1.71
Bosnia: 1.23
Albania: 2.03
Pakistan: 3.71

Now we don't know the exact fertility rate of Muslim women in Europe, but since according to demographic studies, muslims in Europe tend to have families of the same size as in their homecountries, it's safe to conclude that Muslims, while having in general larger families than Europeans, the difference is not excessively big. Besides, the fertility rate in the countries, considered as the main exporters of migrants, is decreasing very fast.

411 Lawrence Schmerel  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 6:35:30am

Racism is an evil and immoral practice. It demands opposition.

However, I don't know much about these groups and I am intellectually ambivalent about the meaning of all these symbols.

Maybe it is because I have not cared about Europe in a long time. Frankly, I wrote it off years ago. I think it is a hopeless cesspool of evil and insanity.

Europe with fight evil with injustice or Europe will endure evil, but it is hard for me to imagine Europe fighting evil with justice.

412 gambini  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 6:42:50am

re: #251 DerKrieger

re: #245 Arbalest

I agree with your analysis Arbalest and from what I can tell in reading GoV it is precisely this distinction many posters there are trying to make, i.e. a party dedicated to the preservation of unique European cultures is not by definition "racist" just because its members are all white. What many Europeans are attempting to do is formal policy in non-white nations such as Japan. They purposefully restrict immigration so as to maintain their unique culture. No one would label the Japanese racist would they? Yet when Europeans seek the same level of cultural continuity they are branded "racists". Seems like a bit of a double standard to me. And I've not kept up with the positions of the various political groups, i.e VB, SD, et al so can't comment on them.

Japan is without any doubt the most racist country on earth.

So that is what you want for Europe? Pubs and restaurants with "only Whites" signss on the door? Just like the famous "Only Japanese" warnings?

Or "non-white" group who have been in Europe for generations, banned from gettint citizenship and their minimal rights? Just like the Koreans of Japan, who despite being in Japan since early 20th century, are still considered foreigners and are discriminated everywhere in Japan? Yes, the smart and hard-working Koreans who can't be distinguished phisically from Japanese, are treated like Shit in Japan.
So that's what you want in Europe? Segregation?

413 guftafs  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 7:00:27am

re: #412 gambini

To the defense of East Asians like South Korea and Japan, I think the younger generations are bringing about a sea of change in values as compared to the older, traditional values. At least their value systems are not as monolithic as before. Only a couple of generations ago and they were not the highly industrialized nations that they are today. You would be surprised if there weren't any traces left of old prejudices. Just putting it in context to explain it, not condone it.

As an example of when their chauvinism flips over into farce: I briefly spoke with a Korean businessman who remarked that he only smoked Korean brand cigarettes. When I asked him why he replied perfectly serious and with a faint surprise in his voice that I had to ask the question "I'm Korean".

/O-K, well that explains everything ...
/try that with a German businessman see how it comes out

414 Yank in the EU  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 7:01:03am

re: #411 Lawrence Schmerel

I do find your comment offensive because what immediately comes to mind are the many people who don't deserve that generalization. There are, of course, many decent people in Europe often with families, who have a history of fighting evil, supporting America, and hope for a future that contains neither Islamism, Marxism nor white nationalism. If it comes to it, I would certainly stay and fight with my Flemish friends and for their children. There can be no denying that, for example, Holocaust deniers like Roland Raes and Nick Griffin are given support by politically significant parties to a much greater to degree than in America, but we have the neo-Nazis as well. One of the fundamental reasons I reject the argument for joining the VB, the BNP or the FN out of pure survivalism (aside from the morality issue) is because I believe European nations today are much different from the 1930's, which enthusiastically embraced ethnic nationalist rhetoric and ideology. The fight decent Europeans have ahead of them to regain their future will certainly be a difficult one as a result of mainly the strength of Marxism. Yet the many decent individuals who are not anti-American (or whatever) do need our support. It reflects better on our characters and lives to not turn a blind eye to these people and to lend support when a decent party makes an effort.

415 Yank in the EU  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 7:13:11am

bottehond: you must learn to use the quote button

416 Lawrence Schmerel  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 7:57:57am

re: #414 Yank in the EU

My lack of faith in Europe as a collective whole should not offend you. It is just my personal pessimistic opinion about Europe's future. I know there are many decent Europeans. It is just that I think they are overrun from all directions.

In the war of evil vs. evil, fence-sitting during the first few battles can be an effective strategy. I want them both to lose. I support decent people everywhere. I was merely expressing my belief that the odds are against decent people.

417 Yank in the EU  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 8:11:53am

#416 Lawrence Schmerel 12/10/07 7:57:57

I appreciate the clarification and am glad for it. As it seemed, the entire lot of people was being condemned as evil, which would have included those who did good and who don't support evil. Cheers.

418 Roger  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 8:32:28am

re: #406 epaminondas

I mostly agree with you. At least put it on the back burner. Let some people review their positions and rethink where change really needs to occur. Where education is most needed. Figure out what needs to give without acting as fault lines slipping causing earthquakes. How to get across what Killian Bundy has been emphasizing and high lighting. A light bulb can really turn on if folks get it and it would be good for all.

419 Charles  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 8:34:58am

re: #406 epaminondas

Why don't we just let this thing just DIE?

Because the Gates of Vienna people are promoting falsehoods, and attacking me personally in a very dishonest way. This "thing" will die when they stop trying to deceive people.

420 Roger  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 8:51:57am

Charles if you have the time please look at the video linked by
re: #259 Thanos

Look not so much at the main characters but at the audience. Around 26:72-73 there are people to view and read their body language wrt to their environment. These people need the world's help. They are in trouble and the right exposure might help them to readjust and move them toward better leadership.

//re: #298 Roger

421 JHW  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 8:54:56am

re: #410 gambini

Very good points. I`ve often linked to this post by "Spengler" of the Asia Times, who argues that it is Islam that is in crisis, including a demographic one ,not the West.
Crisis of Faith in the Muslim World

And, like the point you made,
The Demographics of Radical Islam

And another , arguing Iran is doomed to collapse
Jihadis and Whores

I dont always agree with everything he writes, but he sure can stimulate discussion.

422 Killian Bundy  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 9:00:38am

re: #419 Charles

Gates of Vienna people

As in, I see Gates of Vienna people.

/too bad that rotating it would give them undue satisfaction

423 Render  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 9:08:18am

The concept of "no" should not be all that difficult to understand.

This is not a negotiation. Nor will it ever be.

NEMESIS,
R

424 wahabicorridor  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 9:16:27am

re: #240 Thanos

Thanos, I finished reading the links you so kindly provided. Wow. From SIOE #1

Therefore, it is disappointing that both the Brussels Journal and Gates of Vienna have stubbornly claimed that Schumann Square was the meeting place despite SIOE not having mentioned this place as an assembly point.
It’s also disappointing to see Gates of Vienna and Centre for Vigilant Freedom write about the two different demonstrations as if they were a single one.

From SIOE #2

We entered into agreements with VB and Ulfkotte in good faith and it was both they who betrayed us, not we them.

What is Ulfkotte?

And this comment from SIOE #3 from a German posting as 'Martin Rose' just broke my heart.

1. Pls. remember: we (germans) were in (by means of devided berlin)/or even WERE the center of the two most massive totalitarian systems ever in the 89-year timeframe of 1918-2007 - and of these 89-years time-spann there was ony 32 years ! (1919-1932 + 1990-2007) what could be called a democratically organized society for all-ofGermany. This in mind it needs to be stressed:
Germans really do only have 32-years real experience with democracy AT ALL (given á priori´: the whole nation of it) - that is quite little, isn´t it ?
So when I just read the SIOE brussel-speech published out here in english words - it needs to be confessed that SIOE is the true and only leader of the movement it is all about here, and these simple words of wisdom and call for democratic-baics may be spread by all of us.

We will be there next time.

425 JHW  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 9:23:13am

re: #424 wahabicorridor

Just a quick google brought up this guy. Does it sound about right to you compared to what you`ve read? I`m going to read a bit of his stuff to see if I can get a handle on him.
Security chief Dr. Udo Ulfkotte

426 bottehond  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 9:33:10am

re: #407 oslogin

You are a slippery debater, I'll give you that. Maybe I am asking too many questions in one post. I'll help you out a little.

"Is islamization of Europe an existing phenomena or is it not"

I do not care if some weirdo skinhead says it is ( so it must be a conspiracy theory they want to abuse). Neo nazies might like french fries, that doesn't make french fries fascist food. I would like you to answer my question clearly. A yes or a no will do very well for me. But: I would be very interested in your views on that issue.

I will even tell you why I ask this question. You claim Bat Ye Or is lying and there is no such development as she says. You conclude it's a conspiracy theory. I would like to know if you think that goes for the "islamization issue" too.

Take your time, I have plenty more questions you seem reluctant to answer.

427 wahabicorridor  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 9:34:32am

re: #425 JHW

huh. So Ulfkotte is a person. Reading now. Fascinating.

428 BabbaZee  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 9:36:15am

Deserves re-reading

and...
to every word in this comment I say:
Me Too.


#263 Charles 12/09/07 3:09:09 pm reply quote report 9

By the way, just to be as clear as possible: I'm not in any way accusing Bat Ye'or of being a conspiracy theorizing fascist neo-Nazi, as I'm sure someone will try to say. Her books are indispensable for understanding the global jihad, and I highly recommend them, even though I do retain the right to be skeptical over some of their more controversial assertions.

Reasonable, honest people with differing points of view can debate those issues, and it is not "denial."

Reasonable, honest people with differing points of view.

In my experience a very small, exclusive club ..
;~}

If ever I wanted to be known as a member of some club, party, or ~ism
it would have to be the reasonable, honest people who differ club.

429 wahabicorridor  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 9:50:52am

re: #425 JHW

re: #424 wahabicorridor

Just a quick google brought up this guy. Does it sound about right to you compared to what you`ve read? I`m going to read a bit of his stuff to see if I can get a handle on him.
Security chief Dr. Udo Ulfkotte


Oh. My. God.

I haven't read ANYTHING about this guy so I can't say if it 'sounds about right' - I thought the reference to 'Ulfkotte' in the SIOE post referred to a political party because of the phrasing.

Too bad the book isn't available in English.

430 JHW  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 9:54:09am

re: #427 wahabicorridor

Yes and it`s lead me to some very interesting links. Might through a lot of light on the whole thing.
From Der Spiegel,
Ulfkotte plans Anti-Islamic party

SIOE England is royally pissed off at him;
Saboteur or Judas

431 bottehond  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 9:57:02am

re: #427 wahabicorridor

I am off to a client, but owe you info on the neo-nazies in Brussels. There were about six or seven of them, They mingled in the crowd, staying together. They looked very arrogant and a trifle intimidating (not to me, I'd eat that bunch for breakfast) pushing older people around. I think they may have been French- speaking, I am not sure. When they opened their mouth after their arrest it was like some orks were shouting for food. All of a sudden about 50 troopers marched in the crowd, overrunning the same elderly people and others and they very theatrically arrested the skinheads. There were about 50 camera teams present and they all started running towards the round up skinheads, who enjoyed all the attention and shouted some more grunch- talk. I got angry at the press then, because they had no interest in the ordinary demonstrators, but were all too keen on filming that handful of skinheads. Haha, I even got some Danish crew to interview me on this behaviour of their collegues. My instinct told me from the moment I laid eyes on those skinheads that something was not in order with them. I suspect Thielemans or someone else (I have some ideas on that, tell you later) arranged the skins to be there and get arrested, in order to be able to create an image of the SIOE demonstration being a fascist/ neonazi thing. Have you seen my link to the video on the demonstration? What you see there is a very good impression of both the demonstrators (really people like you and me, many elderly too) and the repressive atmosphere.

I saw in the thread that the MSM media in Europe were successful in manipulating the audience.

432 JHW  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 9:58:36am

re: #429 wahabicorridor

Islamophobia Watch, whoever they are, also don`t like him. He appears to have enemies all over the political spectrum. Maybe the going in hiding he talks about on his blog is a good idea in his case. Verrrrrry interesting. The plot thickens.
Who is Udo Ulfkotte

433 wahabicorridor  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 10:04:17am

re: #431 bottehond

I'm on dial-up and have no speakers - so I can't watch videos. But I can see a lot just in the photos.

I don't think you're the only one who thinks the skinhead scenario could have been a set up. It seems to me that if they had wanted to turn out, there would have been a lot more of them.

434 BabbaZee  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 10:05:05am

re: #432 JHW

He appears to have enemies all over the political spectrum.

I have been looking at this too

I don't know what to think yet
but instinctively I say ...
if all the agendas have a problem with you, likely you are doing something right...

435 wahabicorridor  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 10:07:29am

re: #426 bottehond

You claim Bat Ye Or is lying

You need to correct that bottehond. He very specfically said he is NOT charging her w/lying, only with being wrong.

436 JHW  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 10:12:57am

re: #434 BabbaZee

BabbaZee it seems the more you dig in this stuff, it`s like an onion, layer upon layer . If we can believe half his claims on his website (and they kinda pass the smell test with me) there are some heavy, heavy players involved in this whole thing. Way outa my league. I wonder if desperation led him to De Winter, that pissed a lot of the SIOE people off.

437 wahabicorridor  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 10:17:16am

re: #407 oslogin

I tried to leave this as a comment on your blog, but it doesn't show up, so I'll post it here. There is a book review in today's Washington Post about a book you might be interested in (if you haven't already read it in the original Norwegian). "The RedBreast" by Jo Nesbo.

The Fascist's Revenge.

It's a detective novel about fascism in current day Norway. I'm off to get it from Amazon as soon as I finishing reading the Ulfkotte links. Ordered your book also, btw.

438 BabbaZee  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 10:19:25am
439 wahabicorridor  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 10:25:00am

Oh, man, if this is the quality of the criticism against him, I say we just give Ulfkotte American citizenship like yesterday

Speading fear and hate can be an excellent business model today; witness the success of the Canadian journalist Mark Steyn, who has made $millions urging persecution of Muslims in North America and ridiculing Europe for becoming an Islamic stronghold (Eurabia). Likewise there are a number of "experts" in Germany who make a nice living warning citizens of a Muslim takeover of Europe. One of the most absurd has to be the journalist, would-be politician and "security expert" Udo Ulfkotte. Ulfkotte is aligned with the hate-blog Politically Incorrect,

Bullshit.

And they use one of our favorites, Juan Cole.

Utter bilge.

440 JHW  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 10:41:41am

re: #439 wahabicorridor

I noticed that one, and they called this site
Politically Incorrect
a hate site, shows a bit of their agenda, because the above site carries LGF, Melanie Phillips, Jihad Watch, Michael Yon, and the contenders in this present controversy, among many others , on their blog-roll. I`m going to have to make a flow chart or something to sort all the players and enmities out,(Just kidding there)

441 wahabicorridor  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 11:09:29am
442 Render  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 11:12:28am

German Udo Ulfkotte is not Security Chief of Belgian Vlaams Belang. The Belgian contingent of Blood & Honor answers to VB Security Chief Bart Debie, not to Freddie Thielman.

It was VB that made a street theater mockery of SIOE's work. Violating their agreement with SIOE by doing so.

Somebody leaked the location of the SIOE people that were beaten up in that parking garage. Somebody who knew what parking garage it would be and when the SIOE people would be arriving there. That's the kind of information only a Security Chief and the victims would have...

STANDARD
OPERATING
PROCEDURE,
R

443 JHW  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 11:16:15am

re: #441 wahabicorridor

I don`t know who is sowing confusion, but they`re succeeding a bit with me now. Good catch, this is truly strange. Enough following bread-crumbs to keep me occupied for some time methinks.

444 wahabicorridor  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 11:27:39am

Ulfkotte was one of the authors of the petition to the Brussels mayor to allow the march.

Then, he up and cancelled the march - without consulting anyone! That's what pissed everybody off and I do indeed remember reading about it at Brussels Journal.

The Pax Europa that he founded is apparently funding Ulfkotte's lawsuit in Germany against a blogger for calling Ulfkotte a racist.

The impression I'm getting is that his connection w/DeWinter may be tenuous but apparently his lawyer is being provided by Vlaams Belang.

Oh dear.

445 Arbalest  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 12:15:12pm

#400 Killian Bundy

So the whole point of this 8+hour exercise was to make the points that:

1) “There are no genetic "races"

Ok. But again, we see, and have seen for thousands of years that children look like their parents and ancestors (i.e, same “racial” characteristics), and not suddenly like some other people 5000 miles away. This seems to be always true. How does the HGP research account for this readily repeatedly and commonly observable fact? If the HGP can’t, then it is wrong or incomplete.

2) “ What you perceive as a "race" has no statistically significant foothold in genetic reality.”?

Perhaps, but it seems to have a statistically significant foothold in “real” reality

The ugly truth of the matter is that, no matter what the HGP findings, "race" affects us all, everyday, whether we like it or not. The HGP protects no one; we still have to deal with common understandings and the everyday reality.

Seriously, is it necessary to go off on a tangent to examine the details of genetics? Neither of us are geneticists, molecular biologists, or anything remotely similar. I do not see that it illuminated anything that was not already known by all, and it seems to be very far off-topic.


#403 Guftafs

You seem to either not read, not completely read, or not understand my posts. Regrettable.

. . . stating that European culture was created by white people.

. . . is essentially a statement of fact. See post #267 paragraph 1 for confirmation.

. . . choosing the flip-side of that error . . .

These words and ideas, and the ones before and after them, are yours, and apparently no one else’s. See my post #245 and subsequent posts for confirmation

Again, you will find that Europeans defending themselves is very un-PC. Parts of some of my previous posts are un-PC, and several posters questioned them. We’ve all been subjected to PC training for several years, so the questions were expected. I do suggest that we end this PC nonsense; it will make sorting thins in Europe less bloody. Note that this is clearly different from your first 2 sentences.

. . . Who cares what they think? . . . . . . . . . .

It looks, or at least it looked before GoV linked to some extremist sites, that there were things and people to be salvaged from VB. Solving as much of Europe's problems by the political process seems desirable, and seemed do-able. Perhaps I was wrong in thinking this.

446 Killian Bundy  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 12:30:55pm

re: #445 Arbalest

Call it whatever you want, call it a [expletive deleted] grilled cheese sandwich, sporting the image of the Virgin Mary, with a cherry on top for all I care. Just don't assert that there's a genetic basis to differentiate human "races" because that's just sheer ignorance flying in the face of established facts.

/this just in, Earth, not flat

447 guftafs  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 12:39:52pm

re: #445 Arbalest

#400 Killian Bundy
#403 Guftafs

You seem to either not read, not completely read, or not understand my posts. Regrettable.

. . . stating that European culture was created by white people.

. . . is essentially a statement of fact. See post #267 paragraph 1 for confirmation.

. . . choosing the flip-side of that error . . .

These words and ideas, and the ones before and after them, are yours, and apparently no one else’s. See my post #245 and subsequent posts for confirmation

Again, you will find that Europeans defending themselves is very un-PC. Parts of some of my previous posts are un-PC, and several posters questioned them. We’ve all been subjected to PC training for several years, so the questions were expected. I do suggest that we end this PC nonsense; it will make sorting thins in Europe less bloody. Note that this is clearly different from your first 2 sentences.

. . . Who cares what they think? . . . . . . . . . .

It looks, or at least it looked before GoV linked to some extremist sites, that there were things and people to be salvaged from VB. Solving as much of Europe's problems by the political process seems desirable, and seemed do-able. Perhaps I was wrong in thinking this.

I do not disagree with the fact that white individuals created Western culture. I just stated the more important fact that for the purposes of this discussion the colour of the creators is irrelevant. Your insistence that this irrelevant fact must be regarded as relevant merely makes your error more glaring. I think my line of reasoning was clear enough and I fail to see your demonstrating anything wrong with it.

You mustn't let political correctness be your standard of judgment. PC is clearly wrong and oppressive, but to say that everything that is non-PC is right and good is clearly wrong too. For example, a PC premis would be: "Everything that was done by white men is evil". From that does not follow that "Everything done by white men is good." That should be obvious. I honestly don't know what your paragraph about PC is about.

448 Killian Bundy  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 12:42:10pm

re: #445 Arbalest

Let me put it this way. Yes, Koreans and Ethiopians look different. But scratch the cosmetic surface and they're genetically indistinguishable. And no, the Human Genome Project is not incomplete.

/once more, with feeling, there are no human races sub-species

449 guftafs  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 12:44:19pm

re: #448 Killian Bundy

Don't think you're getting through but I'll give you a '+' for your impassionate attempts.

450 Killian Bundy  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 12:52:03pm

re: #445 Arbalest

Perhaps, but it seems to have a statistically significant foothold in “real” reality

The ugly truth of the matter is that, no matter what the HGP findings, "race" affects us all, everyday, whether we like it or not. The HGP protects no one; we still have to deal with common understandings and the everyday reality.

Old habits die hard.

/I choose not to perpetuate racial myths myself and the truth is on my side

451 bottehond  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 1:19:25pm

re: #435 wahabicorridor

re: #407 oslogin

Oslogin: I got my ass kicked and the chain jerked. I need to correct:

"You claim Bat Ye Or is lying "
into:
"You claim Bat Ye Or is wrong"

@ yer service!

452 Arbalest  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 2:23:47pm

#447 Guftafs

From your post #443:

So because multi-culturalism and political correctness is an expression of racism directed at white people you want to counter that by stating that European culture was created by white people?

I did not say or write this, and you’d know that if you had read my posts. Perhaps you will re-read them.

You want to defeat a wrong, PC ("everything white is evil"), by choosing the flip-side of that error ("it has to be white to be good")?

You’re being intellectually dishonest and you know it; I also did not say, write, or imply this, and if you had read my posts you’d know this. Perhaps you will re-read them.


Now to your post #447

Your insistence that this irrelevant fact must be regarded as relevant merely makes your error more glaring.

The ugly truth of the matter is that, because effectively “European = white” and PC says "white = bad", PC is preventing the native Europeans from defending themselves. Search around LGF and FrontPageMag for many examples (British schools, etc.). PC prevents the Europeans from, among other things, being able to speak the truth that their lands have been theirs for many years (certainly not the immigrant’s), that simply practicing, living, expressing their culture is not “racist”.

As you might have read, from this thread, this is an extremely difficult and risky topic to discuss; it is very un-PC. Check a few of my ratings, then read my words; do they really agree? The Europeans are in some danger of losing their way of life because they are the Bad Guys in the PC view.

Do you see now how this “irrelevant fact” is actually very near the crux of the problem in Europe?

I think my line of reasoning was clear enough and I fail to see your demonstrating anything wrong with it.

See previous. Your line of reasoning seems to have missed almost all of my salient points.

To quote a certain poster: “You mustn't let political correctness be your standard of judgment.

453 guftafs  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 2:28:47pm

re: #452 Arbalest

454 Arbalest  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 2:31:59pm

446 Killian Bundy

Just don't assert that there's a genetic basis to differentiate human "races" because that's just sheer ignorance flying in the face of established facts.”

You seem to have an unusual, almost disturbing, interest in DNA and genetics, at least your posts #254, #260, #275, #289 point this way (and the foundation for them isn’t clear). Why such an interest?


Using information you posted in your post #226

While different genes for physical traits such as skin and hair color can be identified between individuals, no consistent patterns of genes across the human genome exist to distinguish one race from another.

Very well, using this information, review my posts, starting with #245.

I point out that the immigration problem seems to be lining up on “racial” lines, you know, as per your post #226 “physical traits such as skin and hair color”.

These traits are visible, and everyone sees them, HGP findings notwithstanding. Religion also seems to be a major factor, and while not genetic, or even biological, it too can be seen by casual observers.

You try to wave the HGP about as some sort of shield from the evils of race and a panacea for racism. This reminds me of Ron Paul advocating a return to the gold standard; maybe it will help, even cure many ills, but there’s scant evidence, and there are very many more important problems to battle.

You say the HGP says . . . . . . . . and I believe most of them to be true.

But can the HGP explain the differences everyone sees in people, the inherited differences we all call “racial characteristics”? This should be a simple matter.

Can you? I’ve asked you 3 or 4 times, and you’ve ignored my requests and tried to smear me. It hasn’t worked.

So I ask again:
1) Can you show how the HGP explains inherited characteristics (should be a simple matter)?
2) Can you show how the HGP information is directly relevant to this thread topic?
3) Can you show how the HGP findings protected these people from violence?

Seriously, we should deal with real world situations.


From your post #448

Let me put it this way. Yes, Koreans and Ethiopians look different.

Why is this? How does the HGP explain this? As per #1 above, can you explain it.
If ‘no” then why do you keep bring it up?

But scratch the cosmetic surface and they're genetically indistinguishable.

Unfortunately, life doesn’t see things this way. In the meantime, the world has to deal with various ugly day-to-day truths that just won't go away.

455 Arbalest  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 2:42:10pm

re: #453 guftafs

This means you admit that your arguments are wrong.

456 guftafs  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 2:44:42pm

re: #455 Arbalest

re: #453 guftafs

This means you admit that your arguments are wrong.

Yes, it does.

457 bottehond  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 2:56:44pm

re: #452 Arbalest

I fiddled around with the +/- a bit, just for the fun of it, but I have principal problems with them. I will press the plus though.

I didn't understand your view on genetics etc. and do not see the relevance of that discourse, but a lot of what you are saying I agree with.

I am under the impression that your point of view is very rational and intellectual. I think after the debate you are still standing. It must be the impression of intellectual integrity from your post, because some of the things you posted would really piss me off if I was a PC- adept. Quite an achievement, dude.

458 Killian Bundy  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 3:06:46pm

re: #454 Arbalest

Did I say that individuals don't differ genetically or that commonalities don't exist in regional populations? Did I? Is that the conclusion of the HGP?

The truth is that the differences are genetically insignificant. They can't be used to rationally sort human beings into different groups. Am i getting through to you (rhetorical question)?

/what part of "there are no human sub-species" don't you get?

459 bottehond  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 3:18:03pm

re: #458 Killian Bundy


The real question is: is he getting through to you. Imvho.

Are man and women subspecies of humanity, by the way?

* Arf and out *

460 bottehond  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 3:22:15pm

Why can't I give myself a plus? I bet George Bush voted George Bush! Hehehehehe....

461 Killian Bundy  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 3:25:22pm

re: #459 bottehond

Are man and women subspecies of humanity, by the way?

No, sexes exist in most species.

/pat yourself on the back, you're an idiot

462 bottehond  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 3:34:37pm

re: #461 Killian Bundy


/pat yourself on the back, you're an idiot


I sure am. Glad you noticed. And I am pretty good at it. Change idiot to "Fool" and you've got me pinpointed.

You are a little uptight on these issues. What is your deeper concern? It might help me to understand your point of views.

463 Killian Bundy  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 3:46:14pm

re: #462 bottehond

You are a little uptight on these issues. What is your deeper concern? It might help me to understand your point of views.

The truth, accept no substitute.

/ignorance annoys me and gets people killed needlessly

464 Arbalest  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 3:54:03pm

#456 Guftafs

Please put a few more words with your very short posts. The meaning of your post #453 can be interpreted WIDELY, and one interpretation is quite bad. I chose to assume a favorable interpretation and do nothing. See "All".


#457 bottehond

Thanks for the vote of confidence. But there’s no need to vote; I’m quite happy to have all my posts rated as others thing (usually a 0, no rating).

Tracing the genetics argument back; it looks to be one of those internet points that simply gets out of hand. See next


#458 Killian Bundy

We’ve sorted out the “sub-species” question, more than once. My direct statements are posted previously. I think that most points are sorted out.

Did I say that individuals don't differ genetically or that commonalities don't exist in regional populations?

Actually, this looks like a completely new sentence.

In reconsidering your various HGP posts, it may be that the point(s) you have been trying to make are really “Ivory Tower” points. Your comment at the end of your post #450 suggests this.

My positions were based on the everyday ugly reality of life. As we all know, theories are fine, but if they don’t correctly account for everyday events, something is wrong or missing.

I don’t disagree with the HGP findings, but they seem unable to explain why there are (ok: appear to be) “races” of people, and I’ve heard people use the HGP for political purposes.

Since there seems to be no explanation, and some politics, of what use are they in sorting out PC, or the problems in Europe, or the idiocy of VB/ Fjordmann/ Baron B./ Gov . etc.?

Even if there is an explanation, how is it relevant?

How is the HGP directly relevant to this thread?

In retrospect, I should have written these words this way, but I thought that the HGP discussion would be short, perhaps a post or two, then the answer.


All:

As anyone who has taken a communication or sales class knows, human communication loses roughly 36% (maybe more, maybe less) of its information when it changes from face-to-face to written communication.

Translation: I don’t know anyone here, and I’m not sufficiently familiar with anyone’s writing, so if you direct a comment at me, short ones can be easily misinterpreted.

I have ONLY the words you write, and they are perhaps 64% of what you mean.

Writing as "Yank in the EU" does is much more than sufficient, but a simple YouTube posting, with no words, can be easily misinterpreted. Please add a sentence or two, in direct English (no contrapositives, etc.).

465 bottehond  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 4:06:27pm

re: #463 Killian Bundy

I actually completely agree. Our dispute seems to be a truth issue. Truth is like beauty. It is in the eye of the beholder.

I restecp islamists, because I accept their passion, how alien it may be to me. Truth is a complicated issue. They are my nnemies by doctrine, not as a human being. capice?

I know which "truth" my Free World-citizenship teaches me: the Truth is that in the Free World we celebrate individual Freedom. Any doctrine ( Exqueeze me, but I can not consider iSSlam a religion, judging it by its achievements, so I take the Liberty of calling it a doctrine) that opposes and wishes to eliminate Individual Freedom should be mistrusted and rejected if the need occurs.

That sort of shifts the ethical discussion, because you are crossing ethical borders. Shifting ethical borders might prove to be the real issue here.

May I remind you that the Waterwalking Champion of Galilea rudely kicked some folk out of the Temple?

How far can Western Civilization go in order to protect it's own values and very existance? Wiil she prevail by sticking to her "Higher Ethics"? Questions, questions.....

Those are relevant questions to me. I may assume those are the relevant questions for you too?

* I am gone, my wife is really pissed off now *

466 Killian Bundy  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 4:07:31pm

re: #464 Arbalest

My positions were based on the everyday ugly reality of life. As we all know, theories are fine, but if they don’t correctly account for everyday events, something is wrong or missing.

Stew in it. I fully understand the brutal everyday reality. It's how you choose to move forward that makes a difference.

/the perpetuation of ignorance is what's mostly wrong with this world and I would guess you have no argument with that

467 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 6:42:13pm
468 dooyork  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 7:34:26pm

re: 406 epaminondas

Well put. I discussed this at length the other day with Pastorius. He raised the point that many groups on the right are in fact aligning themselves with the jihad -- eg., LePen flirting with les jeunes, David Duke attending Ahmadinejad's "holocaust conference" as a "visiting scholar," etc. My response was basically, ok, insofar as someone lines up on the wrong side of the jihad/anti-jihad, obviously they're not an ally. But, that is the battle line, and former right-wingers will choose where they stand now, as do former lefties: Joe Lieberman, Christopher Hitchens, and Rudy Giuliani are together; Ron Paul, David Duke, and George Galloway are together on the other side.

It's a fairly simple matter of knowing where someone stands. This new "battle line" is new enough that many people are probably still figuring it out. The BNP has been ambiguous, for example, but has at least said things that make clear it is thinking about the issue. As you say, we will all see where people stand.

469 dooyork  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 7:38:47pm

That being said, of course I agree with Charles that GoV should not be attacking him or anyone else personally, or using falsehoods.

Gov and Fjordman should acknowledge that VB had in the past or still has nazi/ethnic-nationalist sympathies/connections. To deny that is kind of silly. Instead, they should make the case for why an allegiance with VB and others like them does more good than harm -- why it is the lesser of two evils.

470 dooyork  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 8:00:36pm

re: 375 Sharmuta

My question called for discussion. Some people are discussing. You don't have to if you don't want to. It doesn't seem a very good use of space on this comments thread to respond to somebody's comment simply to tell them you don't want to answer their question. Fine, let somebody else answer it. Like, oh, I don't know...the person to whom I addressed the question perhaps? [hint: not Sharmuta]

re: 376 Amillenialist

Charles is right that allying with racists is immoral and counter-productive


I agree with this assessment of what his position seems to be. I would like to hear him and Fjordman discussing that issue, instead of fighting -- certainly that is counterproductive.

re: 377 Render

...as far as blips in Europe go, it really wasn't anything all that new, was it? In fact, the only thing that differentiates the Third Retch from all the other anti-Jew pogroms throughout European history, was the size, scale, and brutal efficiency of the nazi death machine...

VB will go to great lengths to create or otherwise contribute toward creating such a political crisis, (the break-up of Belgium, the hijacking of the SOIE demonstration), when an existing crisis, (political Islam, unchecked immigration), cannot be otherwise found to exploit

Thanks for the well-thought out answer. I agree the Nazis did not want to be a "blip." But, I still maintain that Naziism has been thoroughly enough discredited that it poses a much less serious risk than Islamism at this moment in history. And, again, Islam is the end of Europe, while Europe could recover from Naziism, albeit after much devastation.

You seem to say that Naziism was not really an ideology that rose suddenly out of nowhere, but was sort of a continuation of an ideology of ethnic nationalism that was there all along - Naziism was sort of the logical conclusion. If I'm putting your view out there accurately, I have to disagree with this. That view basically says, ethnic-nationalism is the problem, the solution is multiculturalism. In my view the EU is an evil, and I have no problem with VB wanting to break up Belgium; I cheered when the people of Europe voted down the EU constitution; I would welcome a return of sovereignty to the several nations of Europe instead of the EU.

One reason for this is that I think the EU tries to blend different cultures into each other and ultimately wipe them out (to avoid Naziism, the logical end product of nationalism of course); and, a related effect -- or method of accomplishing -- of this blending is the blending in of Islam. European cultures are bad and violent, they must be diluted by first being merged together and then by merging them with non-Europeans. This is not necessarily a conspiracy, but it's the ideology ordinary everyday leftists carry with them. My college teachers didn't scheme and plot at night when the lights went out, but this was their ideology. So, I oppose the EU.

Sorry to ramble. To sum up, I don't think Naziism is the logical endpoint of having distinct nations in Europe which are made up of their native ethnic groups.

471 Render  Mon, Dec 10, 2007 10:20:01pm

re: #470 dooyork

I’m gonna start early on this...

Charles’s stated position is exactly what Charles has stated repeatedly and without change. It’s not all that hard to find (search “user:Charles”). Fjordman had his chance to “discuss” this all he wanted, and all he could manage was to announce that he was “leaving LGF,” three times. There isn’t much room for “discussion” with somebody that keeps running away from the table when facts hit the wood. After the third time, Charles banned him. Feel free to search for user:Fjordman and read his final posts, they’re all archived for posterity.

Paul Belien refused an on-air debate with Charles. I don’t think he even has an account here to be banned, but there have certainly been plenty of open registration periods where he could open an account and discuss to his hearts content.

Baron and Dymphna are not now, nor have they ever been banned from here. Feel free to search their user names.

Atlas is not banned from here either. Again, feel free to search for her user names.

But that’s actually ok, because there really isn’t much to discuss here anyway. No alliance with known neo-nazi’s and/or racists. (note the little dot at the end of that sentence, it’s a period.)

===

Moving on to our little discussion...

If VB managed to poll over 800,000 Flemings then clearly “naziism” has not been discredited enough. It belongs only in history books and museums, not on the streets and running for elections. It certainly should not be involved on both sides of a religious conflict at the same time. Islam isn’t potentially the end of Europe, but the VB types of Europe don’t seem to be nuanced or sophisticated enough to figure out how to survive and persevere without resorting to the same old methods they’ve always used.

“You seem to say that...”

Stop right there. You just announced a straw man argument.

Feel free to look up the word “Pogrom.”

I’ll make it easy for you...

[Link: www.google.com...]

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

You let me know when it stops, until then...

MY
FATHERS
SON,
R

472 Yank in the EU  Tue, Dec 11, 2007 7:20:54am

Round up of thoughts on the controversy:

(1) Despite having had it explained why racial nationalism (in this case "white") contains a fundamental danger and flaw, some commentators are silent on this topic, but instead return to familiar statements that tend to make unclear the problem. The choice is not between White Nationalism and multiculturalism. Here is the fallacy of the false dichotomy. Europeans do not have to bring in 'race' to defend their culture or themselves. The racialist / tribalist ideology is both unnecessary for Europeans to take pride in their culture and in fact it is counterproductive since many non-PC non-leftists reject nationalism that enters 'race' into the set of distinguishing ideals.

Arguing that PC has caused white people in Europe to hate themselves is also not a shield against critique of racial nationalism, a distinct issue. Once again, for Europeans to strengthen their culture against the jihad, a justified aim, they do not have to introduce "race" or "white" into their ideology, which asserts a flawed and dangerous principle. This is a valid criticism that gets sloughed over in confusion or deliberate obfuscation.

(2) Gates of Vienna has a new post laden with smears and fallacies. This is precisely a case of ignoring legitimate arguments themselves and reasoned discourse dealing with content, in favor of presenting a narrative which tries to vindicate the GoV / VB entirely on how LGF is an ignorant American pawn of "leftist" anti-VBers. Wait a minute, what about the VP of the VB denying the Holocaust in 2001, just a few years before the party declared itself "pro-Jewish"? What about Dewinter's calls for a "white Europe" and affirmation of that on Shire radio? What of the disturbing facts we presented such as on-going alliances with neo-Nazis groups (and the NPD and Haider's party are real neo-Nazi groups)? What about Dewinter stating that his party, to this day, honors Flemish Nazi collaborators as founders of his party? All "leftist lies"? Such would be to take readers of this conflict for either witless 'plebs' or tacitly in agreement with such dishonest tactics.

We never accept this manner of dealing with another's arguments in any case, but somehow here such lowly tactics and personalized charges, which seem to me fraught with deep anger, are deemed acceptable. It displays the defensive, irrational state those condemning LGF's position as "leftist" have reached. From "Proflandria": "Unfortunately, those arguments come from the left side of the spectrum of Belgian politics." That is a classic example of an ad hominem argument, used here to dismiss factual evidence posted and arguments made by LGF. That the VB's VP denied the Holocaust in 2001 is a leftist lie? How can they fail to notice that the content and arguments of the matter are ignored in favor of ad hominem narrative? This same person also refers to the shoddy judicial case brought against the VB, yet LGF has neither the supported the ban nor used the arguments, which is again dishonest.

(3) A good question is: what to do now? How to help Europe defend itself? An vitally important start is to recognize that it can and must be done without bringing "race" or "white" into the ideology. But the problem is that groups like the Vlaams Belang and the BNP have constituencies and leadership that are invested in white nationalism, often to extreme degrees. Are they (or rather their supporters) going to swallow their pride, stop attacking LGF as "leftist", "PC", "Eurabia deniers" (which is an unjust charge all around), and turn around? That seems an unlikely prospect, given how the fortified trenches appear to be dug. Further, we have seen Fjordman, Dymphna and Gates of Vienna in explicit terms defend the conception of nationalism that brings in race. This indicates the level of investment already in place against criticizing the VB or the BNP on this ground.

473 bottehond  Tue, Dec 11, 2007 2:42:40pm

re: #467 taxfreekiller

The Dutch Blunt Lizards Delegation says: Agreed!

474 bottehond  Tue, Dec 11, 2007 2:48:13pm

Render and Dooyork appear to be mediating. Fascinating.

475 Kirly  Tue, Dec 11, 2007 3:01:42pm

re: #470 dooyork

Charles is right that allying with racists is immoral and counter-productive

I agree with this assessment of what his position seems to be. I would like to hear him and Fjordman discussing that issue, instead of fighting -- certainly that is counterproductive


fine, then provide the neutral forum and issue the invitations.

476 bottehond  Tue, Dec 11, 2007 3:32:05pm

re: #474 bottehond

How can any sane person give me a minus on that one? Not that I care. As the house Fool I enjoy minusses as much as plusses. It just makes me wonder.

477 bottehond  Tue, Dec 11, 2007 3:34:00pm

re: #475 Kirly

Anapolis is dhimmitude in action, but the real issues get solved by Lizards, it appears.


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