That thread is very nasty.

You could actually watch this guy come unglued while he was on LGF. A year ago he was still writing fairly penetrating, on-target posts here. Then gradually he began slipping into this psuedo-Millenarianism which featured the USA spiralling into a rapid and total collapse, and other such dystopian nonsense. He strikes me as someone who may have just a touch of clinical paranoia, which is getting worse over time.

Yeh never site facts....just name call...like ATS and KOS kiddies.

All those fancy euro letters that aren't really letters makes me want to bust out all those little cheese knives and place them around my breakfast 'nook'.

re: #4 Wyatt Junker

Heh. They make me want to give away 70% of my income to the Government. And throw my guns in the harbor.

The yelling continues to increase in volume.

OT:
"The theory of evolution is a Christian plot to subvert the morals of Islamic youth."

I couldn't make this stuff up:

www.harunyahya.com/m_about_site.php

Harun Yahya is the pen name of a Turkish Moslem who is getting quite a bit of attention across the Atlantic. He opposes the teaching of evolution because Darwin was "just another Christian crusader" whose lies will turn people away from the true god, Allah. Anybody they hate or disagree with is working against Allah.

Gotta love the irony.

Sad. Fjordman - sad.

side note: it's too bad we can't have "green" without the "socialism".
socialism sucks.

They're still arguing that Islam is a race, I see.

If they tried to intentionally miss the point, I don't see how they'd do a better job.

That thread had 35 comments....wow.

re: #7 ElKafir

Heh. Well I'm a Christian who has no problem with evolutionary biology (considered within the proper context, not as a launching pad for illegitimate metaphysical speculation). I'm also completely in favor of subverting the "morals" of Islamic yoots, insofar as those "morals" involve beheading me and my family.

When I first came to LGF and saw some of Fjordmans' posts I thought he must have been spamming the site with his own fawning sock puppets.
Let him have the banned. They never were anything but trouble, and probably drove away some intelligent discourse.

re: #7 ElKafir
Here's some background on the idiot who wrote it......
Adnan Oktar

Now they are calling us...the anti-jihad...LGF post more on the jihad in one day...then GoV post in a month...get real.

Gates of Vienna Requires a Correction From Charles Johnson

Bodissey accuses Charles of a smear campaign.

writing another thousand words without dealing with a single factual issue

Only a thousand words?

/to Fjordman, that's like haiku

re: #12 EC Marm

Fjordman: Abode of the Banned

The point we're making that Fjordman is deliberately avoiding:

If the Average Joe associates opposing the expansion of radical Islam with White Power racists and old school Fascists, the idea that the Salafi Death Cult is a threat to Western values and basic individual freedoms all over the world will lose out to the "Why do they hate us?" appeasement worms.

_{OK, so I quoted myself...}

It is reasonable to ask that the argumentation deal with facts and content, rather than engage in attacks on the person originating the information, especially when the attacks veer into large, other matters such as Global Warming or the Eurabia thesis. Every rational person serious about seeking truth recognizes this, for it is a wrong and illegimate tactic that if take as rule would replace rational discourse with raw animosity. This leads to the clear impression that the purpose of those attacking LGF is precisely to engage in personal attacks and to obfuscate the facts of the matter, such as Fjordman's repeated and explicit defenses of the white nationalist ideology.

#19 PIMF: taken

Oyvind Strommen IS, however, full of shite when he says "Euarabia" is a myth.

Mark Steyn has put that "myth" into the crapper often.

That said, Fjordman needs to answer to the facts presented, not whine about the presenters.

re: #7 ElKafir How stupid. Everyone knows the Zionists are behind the theory of evolution. //

Does Fjordman deny that he is a Eurabia denial denier?

re: #18 Spiny Norman

Very well put.

That really is the crux of the matter. Any conceivable "benefit" that is conferred by having these people as our "allies" is drastically outweighed by the PR nightmare that results from an association in the public mind -- whether accurate or not -- between anti-jihadism and old-school white sheet and pointy hat racism.

Americans will not stomach that stuff.

Oyvind *gasp* you are leftist tree-hugger! This does it. You're out! :o)

re: #19 Yank in the EU

Fjordman's repeated and explicit defenses of the white nationalist ideology

That's the whole point...and Fjordman and GoV can not deny what they believe....They want a white Europe....the one Hitler dreamed of.

"The enemy of my enemy can still be an asshole."

re: #7 ElKafir

I think my head just exploded...

...

Closer to OT. Perhaps I'm just so clueless here, but I'm not understanding why this has become such a controversy. It seems pretty obvious to me that these VBers are pretty whacko (maybe not on the same plane as, say, the Klan, but they're up there) and yet they have this group of otherwise seemingly normal people who actively defend them...

re: #27 mjazzguitar

"The enemy of my enemy can still be an asshole."

I'm stealing this line...

/yoink

re: #19 Yank in the EU

... Fjordman's repeated and explicit defenses of the white nationalist ideology.

Must be tough lacking the courage of your own convictions, always having to fake and dissimulate. Poor thing.

re: #23 Gagdad Bob

Ooh, a pistol packin' raccoon.

/now we're talkin'

re: #21 LSD

Oyvind Strommen IS, however, full of shite when he says "Euarabia" is a myth.

Mark Steyn has put that "myth" into the crapper often.

That said, Fjordman needs to answer to the facts presented, not whine about the presenters.

True. His pointing out of the black rat cartoon's clear fascist symbolism may be a case of "a stopped clock being right twice a day", but shouldn't diminish the fact that he's right about the rat.

re: #19 Yank in the EU

This leads to the clear impression that the purpose of those attacking LGF is precisely to engage in personal attacks and to obfuscate the facts of the matter

When one has nothing left to "defend" one's self with often the response turns into precisely what you've pointed out. If fjordy had a legitimate argument- he'd present it.

Geez, Fjordman... fucking get over yourself already.

Good afternoon, Lizards.

I remember feeling intimidated by Fjordman. Now I realize that it wasn't because he was brilliant; it was because it was a bully.

I admit I'm a fragile petal whose feelings are easily hurt, and I do need to toughen up, but debate shouldn't include in attacking the opponent rather than arguing the position.

I don't know about this whole Fjordman thing. I mean can't he just move on and do whatever it is that he does? Just saying.

/on the other hand he's starting to peg my creep meter.

re: #31 Killian Bundy

"moments after he arrived via UPS and unpacked"

What a gas!

Forgive my confusion but has Charles actually expressed an opinion on Bat Yeor's views about Eurabia? Personally I find her books to be very intelligent, persuasive and prescient.

re: #36 BlueCanuck

He clearly has some significant "issues" as the kids say. I'm glad there's an ocean separating us.

re: #28 NoSpam

re: #7 ElKafir

I think my head just exploded...

...

Closer to OT. Perhaps I'm just so clueless here, but I'm not understanding why this has become such a controversy. It seems pretty obvious to me that these VBers are pretty whacko (maybe not on the same plane as, say, the Klan, but they're up there) and yet they have this group of otherwise seemingly normal people who actively defend them...

I so agree with you. I've been mystified.

Didn't some of these ''white power'' sympathizers also claim this horrid-looking rat is a nice symbol?
Sort of a mascot?
All you did was show an uncropped pic of their own use of their own rat to put it in context.
The facts spoke for themselves.
I'm not quite old enough to have seen Germany's anti-jew propaganda movies that spliced in the rats running along the alleyways with the Jews walking along similar streets, but I did see some of those scenes later.
The rat is not a "Mickey Mouse," type darling.
History cannot be snipped off from it's past like wool slipping over the eyes of those in denial.

re: #27 mjazzguitar

"The enemy of my enemy can still be an asshole."

I prefer "The enemy of my enemy is my enemies enemy, not my friend, whose animosity towards my enemy I will exploit at every possible opportunity"

It's a slight paraphrasing of the tactical strategies of Sun Tzu...But it works for me...

re: #28 NoSpam

re: #7 ElKafir

I think my head just exploded...

...

Closer to OT. Perhaps I'm just so clueless here, but I'm not understanding why this has become such a controversy. It seems pretty obvious to me that these VBers are pretty whacko (maybe not on the same plane as, say, the Klan, but they're up there) and yet they have this group of otherwise seemingly normal people who actively defend them...

They're convinced that Doomsday is upon them and they need allies wherever they can find them.

They refuse to see that welcoming in the White Nationalists will hamstring the Anti-Islamization movement quicker than anything the politically-correct, multi-cultural Socialist weasels could ever dream up.

re: #26 storagemanager

The defenses of white nationalism are plain enough, but it's a bit too much of a highly emotionally-charged statement to make the Nazi or Hitler accusation. The effect of doing that does not serve us well in terms of careful argument and attention to facts, which is of great importance in such a serious issue involve. Please, let's try to be a little bit detached and not get caught up in overwrought accusations.

re: #43 Spiny Norman

re: #28 NoSpam

re: #7 ElKafirI think my head just exploded...

...

Closer to OT. Perhaps I'm just so clueless here, but I'm not understanding why this has become such a controversy. It seems pretty obvious to me that these VBers are pretty whacko (maybe not on the same plane as, say, the Klan, but they're up there) and yet they have this group of otherwise seemingly normal people who actively defend them...

They're convinced that Doomsday is upon them and they need allies wherever they can find them.

They refuse to see that welcoming in the White Nationalists will hamstring the Anti-Islamization movement quicker than anything the politically-correct, multi-cultural Socialist weasels could ever dream up.

Yup, that seems to be pretty much the case. And sadly they have fallen hook line and sinker for the old saying...The enemy of my enemy is my friend...

The claim goes something like this; " Even though we want Europe, or at least our part of it, to be a white mono-culture, we do not qualify as racist because we are willing to tolerate Jews.

for now

re: #21 LSD

Oyvind Strommen IS, however, full of shite when he says "Euarabia" is a myth.

Mark Steyn has put that "myth" into the crapper often.

That said, Fjordman needs to answer to the facts presented, not whine about the presenters.

Do you have a link to anything Steyn wrote about it?

re: #46 swamprat

perfect.

I must have missed it. What was the criticism of Eurabia that led to Charles being called a "denier"?

re: #35 goddessoftheclassroom

Good afternoon, Lizards.

I remember feeling intimidated by Fjordman. Now I realize that it wasn't because he was brilliant; it was because it was a bully.

I admit I'm a fragile petal whose feelings are easily hurt, and I do need to toughen up, but debate shouldn't include in attacking the opponent rather than arguing the position.

I actually prefer internet debate with the creepies instead of face-to-face. I'm not very good with on-the-spot verbal articulation and tend to stutter a lot, whereas if I'm typing I can do a verbal bodyslam. Plus there ends up being a record left for all to see. Fjordman may or may not realize that everything he says will be around for a very long time after this debate gets old and it may end up coming back to bite him.

re: #46 swamprat
You've put it in as small a nutshell as it can go.
Good work.

These have got to be the tiniest avatars I've ever seen.

Fun, though...

Just an Avatar Test. Excuse, please.

re: #43 Spiny Norman

I guess that makes sense, though we're not on full doomsday mode yet. And there are plenty of sane, non-whacko political parties in Europe, so I wonder why these people don't choose a different group.

re: #52 zeppenwolf

Digg uses the same size. Larger avatars work on sites that have perhaps 20-30 posts per page. LGF isn't structured that way, and routinely exceeds 1,500 posts per open thread.

re: #41 mean Gene

Did you ever see the German anti-hitler caroon where he is drawn in characature and his moustashe is drawn as two rats shoved one up each nostil? It may have been a reference to the fascist rats, of course, the rat is a common symbol in propaganda...

re: #54 NoSpam

re: #43 Spiny Norman

I guess that makes sense, though we're not on full doomsday mode yet. And there are plenty of sane, non-whacko political parties in Europe, so I wonder why these people don't choose a different group.

One reason why we're focusing so much on the Vlaams Belang/Blok is that it's the only one that has major party status on its own electoral turf. The rest are fringe groups indeed.

Drill bra rules!
The Machine Girl

OMG, marble time in fantasy football, win or go home, and I just found out that my opponent started Rex Grossman instead of Brett Favre. Bonus: he started Adrian Peterson. No, no, not that one. This Adrian Peterson.

Must be my lucky day.

/still, the Fat Lady hasn't even begun to warm up so I'll refrain from doing the happy dance, for now

re: #21 LSD

Oyvind Strommen IS, however, full of shite when he says "Euarabia" is a myth.

Mark Steyn has put that "myth" into the crapper often.

That said, Fjordman needs to answer to the facts presented, not whine about the presenters.

It all ties together - doesn't it.

"We're the ones who will change you," the Norwegian imam Mullah Krekar told the Oslo newspaper Dagbladet in 2006. "Just look at the development within Europe, where the number of Muslims is expanding like mosquitoes. Every Western woman in the EU is producing an average of 1.4 children. Every Muslim woman in the same countries is producing 3.5 children." As he summed it up: "Our way of thinking will prove more powerful than yours."

[Link: corner.nationalreview.com...]

re: #38 swisscottage

Forgive my confusion but has Charles actually expressed an opinion on Bat Yeor's views about Eurabia? Personally I find her books to be very intelligent, persuasive and prescient.

I think Bat Ye'or has done very good work documenting the history of the dhimmitude concept in "Islam and Dhimmitude," and in "Eurabia," sounding a much-needed warning siren on the effect of uncontrolled immigration from Islamic countries.

I do, however, have reservations about her theory that a high-level conspiracy is deliberately, consciously directing the "Arabization" of Europe -- the same kinds of reservations I have with almost any "grand conspiracy" theories.

With respect -- and verging on OT -- I have to say I am more concerned by the silence attendant upon the unjustified imprisonment of Border Patrol agents Ramos and Compean than I am the antics of VB or other Euro-wackos.

Ramos and Compean have been in prison -- Ramos, at least, in solitary confinement -- for 11 months now. The damage to our system of laws increases daily as perseuctor Johnny Sutton, the sock-puppet of GWB and the open-borders bunch, is allowed to get away with his legal and ethical violations.

Compared to what happens here in the USA, I consider VB of marginal concern, to say the least.

Just went and read the thread...

unbelievable.

Archonix said...
It strikes me that part of the problem is simply that we don't fit his narrative. We, "europeans" of all nationalities, are standing up for our culture rather than simple standing futilely against an invading culture. It might sound like semantics but there's a world of difference. When you stand for something it unites people in a way that simply standing against something never can. The problem is, what we're standing for isn't what Charles wants us to stand for. What we're standing for is our own culture and our own history and the right to celebrate and preserve these things.

Charles is all for preserving western Europe, dumbass... just don't affiliate yourself with Jew-haters in the process!

Why is that so hard to understand?!?

re: #58 Killgore Trout

Drill bra rules!
The Machine Girl

If I click on this, is it going to make my head explode again? Any website with 'loli' in the name can't possibly be good...

re: #64 NoSpam

If I click on this, is it going to make my head explode again?

Yes.

re: #57 Former Belgian

re: #54 NoSpam

re: #43 Spiny Norman

I guess that makes sense, though we're not on full doomsday mode yet. And there are plenty of sane, non-whacko political parties in Europe, so I wonder why these people don't choose a different group.

One reason why we're focusing so much on the Vlaams Belang/Blok is that it's the only one that has major party status on its own electoral turf. The rest are fringe groups indeed.

VB has a lot of people playing the useful idiots...This makes me sad.

re: #60 FrogMarch

The quote does not prove a master plan to conjoin the Middle East and Europe instigated by the EU. It only shows the crude mindset of a primitive religious fanatic who only thinks numbers count. As Charles (and myself in previous comments) notes, it smells too much of conspiracy theory. I used to believe it but now the idea makes me wary.

re: #61 Charles

What, you mean you don't believe that Bush and Cheney are trying to take over the Middle East in order to enrich their pals in Big Oil?

C'mon Charles, the writing is on the wall!

re: #64 NoSpam

re: #58 Killgore Trout

Drill bra rules!
The Machine Girl

If I click on this, is it going to make my head explode again? Any website with 'loli' in the name can't possibly be good...

It's pretty funny, actually. Apparently a real movie too.

I think I missed out on the Eurabia conspiracy...could someone explain to me what is exactly the Eurabia conspiracy?

re: #61 Charles

re: #38 swisscottage

Forgive my confusion but has Charles actually expressed an opinion on Bat Yeor's views about Eurabia? Personally I find her books to be very intelligent, persuasive and prescient.

I think Bat Ye'or has done very good work documenting the history of the dhimmitude concept in "Islam and Dhimmitude," and in "Eurabia," sounding a much-needed warning siren on the effect of uncontrolled immigration from Islamic countries.

I do, however, have reservations about her theory that a high-level conspiracy is deliberately, consciously directing the "Arabization" of Europe -- the same kinds of reservations I have with almost any "grand conspiracy" theories.

Like you, apparently, I'm a great believer in Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained as stupidity."

Somebody should perhaps inform CJ and his followers that the Scandinavian Left is brimming with Hamas-supporters, Arafat-cheerleaders and anti-Israeli and anti-American attitudes, and that they should be a little bit careful with whom they associate or lend credibility to.

I believe fjordy here- he's one of the bigger anti-American attitudes I've come across- thinking we're lacking knowledge and calling us moonbats. I don't think european anti-Americanism is exclusive to the euro-left, but if he wants to play this game then he's a leftist too with his anti-LGF and anti-American attitude. So you see, fjordy- once you start playing this game- others can play too.

Now- how about refuting the symbolism of the rat itself? We'll wait, but we won't hold our breath.

re: #65 Killgore Trout

re: #64 NoSpam

If I click on this, is it going to make my head explode again?

Yes.

It's like the Japanese equivilant of Army of Darkness...

*poof*

re: #61 Charles

Thanks Charles for explaining...there was supposed to be a "high level" conspiracy? From who? From the Muslims themselves?

re: #67 guftafs

re: #60 FrogMarch

The quote does not prove a master plan to conjoin the Middle East and Europe instigated by the EU. It only shows the crude mindset of a primitive religious fanatic who only thinks numbers count. As Charles (and myself in previous comments) notes, it smells too much of conspiracy theory. I used to believe it but now the idea makes me wary.

Conspiracies aside, as I too am wary of them, the numbers game may not be entirely insignificant.

The Eurabia Thesis is a whole other kettle of fish. On that matter, in brief, I think there are two claims one could make that seem obviously true.

(1) There are and have been many politicians on the left in Europe who, out of their ideology of socialism and multiculturalism, view it as strategically in their interest to appease the demands of radical Islam (because it is Western bigotry, oppression, imperialism and imposition of values that makes them angry), to allow great numbers of Muslims to enter Europe in the hopes of peaceful unity with the Arab / Islamic world as allies, and to oppose those who would wage a massive war against radical Muslims (and not just the 'terrorists' who would be treated as criminals by the left) and their ideology.

(2) The demographics problem is real. As Europeans do not marry and do not give birth in high numbers, Muslim immigrants on the contrary are doing exactly that. It is not mean to say this; it is independent fact, but one is charged with 'racism' in Europe to say it publically. Take a good look at the banlieus around Paris, listen to the call to prayer in Brussels-Molenbeek, and notice large groups of radical Muslims in and around London. In time, as the numbers of radicals among the Muslim communities approach a state of 'critical mass', Europe is going to find itself, unexpectedly perhaps, in the midst of a war for its survival.

re: #53 Navy Vet No need to apologize; we've all done those avatar tests!
And thank you for your service.

re: #70 Psaturn

I think I missed out on the Eurabia conspiracy...could someone explain to me what is exactly the Eurabia conspiracy?

The notion that there is a high-level conspiracy among Europeans to create a super-state comprising the (dying) European peoples and the (multiplying) Arab peoples. Deals have allegedly been struck to the effect that Islam will have a central place in Europe, in exchange for access to oil and the formation of a common bloc aligned aginast the American hegemon.

Or something like that.

OT Fox News better fire somebody really soon!
They just went to Johnathan Seri (sp?) at an arena for Obama with Oprah and somebody else's voice at Fox was heard.
That man was making monkey noises!
Ooo! Oooo! Ooo!
Aaaah! Aaaaah! Aaaa!
Over and over again!
Awful!
A head needs to roll and fast.

re: #58 Killgore Trout

Drill bra rules!
The Machine Girl

I used to like tempura and sushi.

re: #58 Killgore Trout

Drill bra rules!
The Machine Girl

And we get "Lions for Lambs".

I want that at my local cinema.

re: #72 Sharmuta

Somebody should perhaps inform CJ and his followers that the Scandinavian Left is brimming with Hamas-supporters, Arafat-cheerleaders and anti-Israeli and anti-American attitudes, and that they should be a little bit careful with whom they associate or lend credibility to.

I believe fjordy here- he's one of the bigger anti-American attitudes I've come across- thinking we're lacking knowledge and calling us moonbats. I don't think european anti-Americanism is exclusive to the euro-left, but if he wants to play this game then he's a leftist too with his anti-LGF and anti-American attitude. So you see, fjordy- once you start playing this game- others can play too.

Now- how about refuting the symbolism of the rat itself? We'll wait, but we won't hold our breath.

On the (outdated) "left-right" scale, anti-Americanism in Europe follows an inverted Laffer curve: rabid at the far left and the extreme right, hitting a minimum in the center-right.

re: #56 NoSpam
No, I hadn't.
Interesting sounding, though.

re: #71 Former Belgian

Like you, apparently, I'm a great believer in Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained as stupidity."

Yes, well said.

re: #61 Charles

I think Bat Ye'or has done very good work documenting the history of the dhimmitude concept in "Islam and Dhimmitude," and in "Eurabia," sounding a much-needed warning siren on the effect of uncontrolled immigration from Islamic countries.

The "game" is far from over. Europe is not necessarily doomed by any stretch of the imagination. Then again, Fjordman seriously commented here that the United States was, in his opinion, on the verge of an all out, insurrection in the streets, Katy bar the door, civil war.

/that's the exact moment I knew he had jumped the shark and he was incapable of jumping back

German official seeks ban on Scientology

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

I'm not aware that Scientology beheads anyone who leaves. They don't practice Honor killings, infibulation or practice incest.

If the Germans wanted to ban a death cult, I can think of one that deserves banning.

(Like that's ever going to happen!)

re: #69 Pro-Bush Canuck

Here's the movie poster. I'm searching to see if it's out yet......

re: #7 ElKafir

OT:
"The theory of evolution is a Christian plot to subvert the morals of Islamic youth."

I couldn't make this stuff up:

www.harunyahya.com/m_about_site.php

Harun Yahya is the pen name of a Turkish Moslem who is getting quite a bit of attention across the Atlantic. He opposes the teaching of evolution because Darwin was "just another Christian crusader" whose lies will turn people away from the true god, Allah. Anybody they hate or disagree with is working against Allah.

Gotta love the irony.

I used to post about the Harun Yahya movement here a few years ago and it caused such furious arguments that I stopped even mentioning it.

re: #76 Yank in the EU

(2) The demographics problem is real. As Europeans do not marry and do not give birth in high numbers, Muslim immigrants on the contrary are doing exactly that. It is not mean to say this; it is independent fact, but one is charged with 'racism' in Europe to say it publically. Take a good look at the banlieus around Paris, listen to the call to prayer in Brussels-Molenbeek, and notice large groups of radical Muslims in and around London. In time, as the numbers of radicals among the Muslim communities approach a state of 'critical mass', Europe is going to find itself, unexpectedly perhaps, in the midst of a war for its survival.

I believe that the problem is at root not demographical but intellectual. It is our not having any distinct Western values to defend anymore that these pockets of hostile groups are sprouting, and are allowed to thrive. If we succeed in re-establishing freedom, individualism and reason as the core values of the West, most of the assimilation problems would in time dissipate, I believe. Muslims are human beings too. If given the choice they will choose life over death, Britney Spears over Ms Burqua, Shakespeare over the Koran. What else is the cause of honour killings? The primitive's response to the unspeakable audacity of women wanting to live as individuals.

re: #87 Killgore Trout

Kataude mashin gâru

/bookmark IMBD for all things movie

re: #85 Killian Bundy

The one thing that few people take into account is that explosive population growth is tapering of globally. Mexico for example will actually begin to contract within 10 years, and that will drastically reduce the illegal immigration problem in the US as labor becomes scarce at home.

Those Muslims in Europe are reproducing at a high rate now, but there is no reason to believe that will necessarily continue. Muslims in Canada tend to be far more integrated (less ghettoized) than those in Europe, and while their family sizes are larger than the typical atheist Canadian, they aren't excessively large.

It simply becomes too expensive to have 5-6 kids in these societies. Simple economics will eventually curb the explosive growth patterns, and this is something I believe Mark Steyn and others do not understand well enough.

re: #87 Killgore Trout

"Coming In 2010"

Looks like a genre classic!

re: #7 ElKafir

OT:
"The theory of evolution is a Christian plot to subvert the morals of Islamic youth."

I couldn't make this stuff up:

www.harunyahya.com/m_about_site.php

Harun Yahya is the pen name of a Turkish Moslem who is getting quite a bit of attention across the Atlantic. He opposes the teaching of evolution because Darwin was "just another Christian crusader" whose lies will turn people away from the true god, Allah. Anybody they hate or disagree with is working against Allah.

Gotta love the irony.

If there was such a thing as a black hole of stupid it would be called Islam.

Or socialism.

It's band-spankin'-new......
Disfigured School Girl + Heavy Weaponry = First MACHINE GIRL Trailer!

A rough trailer was shown to visitors of the American Film Market but that cut wasn’t quite polished enough in the minds of the producers and so was never made available to the public. The first proper trailer was completed just yesterday and you’ll find it in the Twitch Video Player, embedded just below the break!

I can't wait. Possibly the best movie ever.

Why does Fjordman not understand that failing to deal honestly with accusations of white nationalist associations lends credibility to "Eurabia deniers"?

re: #85 Killian Bundy

re: #61 Charles

I think Bat Ye'or has done very good work documenting the history of the dhimmitude concept in "Islam and Dhimmitude," and in "Eurabia," sounding a much-needed warning siren on the effect of uncontrolled immigration from Islamic countries.

The "game" is far from over. Europe is not necessarily doomed by any stretch of the imagination. Then again, Fjordman seriously commented here that the United States was, in his opinion, on the verge of an all out, insurrection in the streets, Katy bar the door, civil war.

/that's the exact moment I knew he had jumped the shark and he was incapable of jumping back

Everything is upside down, when you enter the Fjordman Zone na-na-na-na na-na-na-na ....

re: #90 Killian Bundy

Cool!

re: #84 Yank in the EU

re: #71 Former Belgian

Like you, apparently, I'm a great believer in Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained as stupidity."

Yes, well said.

Does Bat Ye'or really frame the whole problem as a Protocols-of-the-Elders-of-Zion type conspiracy, or have Euro-fascists read their own agenda into her writings?

re: #89 guftafs

Britney Spears over Ms Burqua,

As a rational individual of the West, can I say 'neither?'

re: #86 Whiterasta

German official seeks ban on Scientology

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

I'm not aware that Scientology beheads anyone who leaves. They don't practice Honor killings, infibulation or practice incest.

If the Germans wanted to ban a death cult, I can think of one that deserves banning.

(Like that's ever going to happen!)

Now, I've always been convinced Scientology was an elaborate tax dodge, but come on! Ferchrissakes, WTF is wrong with some people?

re: #88 zombie

The times have changed. It's a much easier topic to discuss these days.

re: #62 MrScribbler With all due respect, and acknowledging that I haven't followed the case against them very closely, when you say: "Johnny Sutton, the sock-puppet of GWB and the open-borders bunch, is allowed to get away with his legal and ethical violations." I would appreciate it very much if you could provide some detail as to his legal and ethical violations. We are not unfamiliar with prosecutors who violate legal and ethical requirements (see, e.g., former prosecutor and former attorney at law, Mr. Nifong).
Perhaps, with some detail concerning Mr. Sutton's activities, we here in North Carolina could offer up some assistance.

re: #82 Former Belgian

He has posts here on this blog, besides the two I linked, that make it abundantly clear his knowledge and understanding of America is lacking- severely. He wants to use Charles' link to another blog as a "guilt by association" styled smear to claim Charles is a Eurabia denier, but fjordy's anti-Americanism comes from his own mouth. It's interesting that he was so keen on an alliance with Americans when he clearly holds Americans in contempt.

re: #88 zombie

Well if you were using it as a way to attack the beliefs of evangelical Christian Lizards then...

Wouldn't bother me in the least though. I have no problem reconciling Christianity with evolutionary biology.

re: #99 NoSpam

re: #89 guftafs

Britney Spears over Ms Burqua,

As a rational individual of the West, can I say 'neither?'

Neither whores nor submissive.

re: #18 Spiny Norman

The point we're making that Fjordman is deliberately avoiding:

If the Average Joe associates opposing the expansion of radical Islam with White Power racists and old school Fascists, the idea that the Salafi Death Cult is a threat to Western values and basic individual freedoms all over the world will lose out to the "Why do they hate us?" appeasement worms.

_{OK, so I quoted myself...}

Very well stated. Choosing between Islamisms and White Racism is no choice at all. I doubt seriously that Bat Ye'or supports a movement devoted to white national "purity."

re: #99 NoSpam

re: #89 guftafs

Britney Spears over Ms Burqua,

As a rational individual of the West, can I say 'neither?'

Yes, I would too. Just an example. :o)

re: #13 Killgore Trout

re: #7 ElKafir
Here's some background on the idiot who wrote it......
Adnan Oktar

I actually went to an Islamic creationist presentation by Harun Yahya, but never made a report out of it. Due to security concerns. This was a couple years ago. (I was the only non-Muslim in the room, but I'm not sure that I "passed." I left early due to escalating suspicious glances. The subsequent report was suppressed.)

The perils of going under cover!

re: #86 Whiterasta

German official seeks ban on Scientology

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

I'm not aware that Scientology beheads anyone who leaves. They don't practice Honor killings, infibulation or practice incest.

If the Germans wanted to ban a death cult, I can think of one that deserves banning.

(Like that's ever going to happen!)

The German gov't can't see the forest for the trees and hasn't been able to do so in years. They focus on little, insignificant things and hound them to death while the big stuff lumbers by and thrashes about Godzilla-style. By the time they notice the giant footprints and smashed cars, it will be too late.

Oops..."Islamism"

re: #61 Charles

I do, however, have reservations about her theory that a high-level conspiracy is deliberately, consciously directing the "Arabization" of Europe -- the same kinds of reservations I have with almost any "grand conspiracy" theories.

One need not posit a conspiracy to explain something caused by some folks simply being stupid.

re: #106 Promethea

re: #18 Spiny Norman

The point we're making that Fjordman is deliberately avoiding:

If the Average Joe associates opposing the expansion of radical Islam with White Power racists and old school Fascists, the idea that the Salafi Death Cult is a threat to Western values and basic individual freedoms all over the world will lose out to the "Why do they hate us?" appeasement worms.

_{OK, so I quoted myself...}

Very well stated. Choosing between Islamisms and White Racism is no choice at all. I doubt seriously that Bat Ye'or supports a movement devoted to white national "purity."

She and other anti-jihadi bloggers in Europe and America do support them. They're that desperate. Some bloggers have shown their true racist side, but most of the useful idiots supporting the Euro-fascists are just desperate.

"uncle ackbar is (a loon..... an old fogey...... nutty as a fruitbar) from the old country, mohammed. He's not home, now. Bring in your american friends and I will get out the icecream and cake."

We are Americans. This is what we do. It is destroying the hate that others are counting on.

re: #111 The Other Les

re: #61 Charles

I do, however, have reservations about her theory that a high-level conspiracy is deliberately, consciously directing the "Arabization" of Europe -- the same kinds of reservations I have with almost any "grand conspiracy" theories.

One need not posit a conspiracy to explain something caused by some folks simply being stupid.

Thomas Sowell said something like that.

re: #89 guftafs

It is our not having any distinct Western values to defend anymore that these pockets of hostile groups are sprouting, and are allowed to thrive.

I agree with you that values and ideas are major, major parts of the problem. Nihilism, to give it one word. But this is a question of causality, origin, and explanation; the demographics claim simply points to the sheer, brute fact of numbers. I would have a hard time seeing how this claim can be denied. One can easily admit that there is a numbers, birthrate issue and also that the solutions and explanations you give are also true. To be clear, the demographics issue will only come into effect many years down the road; Europe is not at war with its Muslims now. But it is what Europe does now that will determine whether it survives in decades to come.

re: #87 Killgore Trout

Oh snap out in 2010. :(

re: #102 realwest

I think one of the biggest complaints about the prosecution was its reliance upon the testimony of an acknowledged criminal - the drug smuggler "feloniously assaulted" by the officers. The "witness" was given a free pass across the border (and for the offense being committed at the time of the incident) so he could testify (and, I think, he has been arrested, again, since - not sure about that).

Perhaps more a question of the prosecutor's priorities than strict questions of "legality". "Ethics" is more an issue for the beholder.

re: #114 marwan's daughter

re: #111 The Other Les

re: #61 Charles

I do, however, have reservations about her theory that a high-level conspiracy is deliberately, consciously directing the "Arabization" of Europe -- the same kinds of reservations I have with almost any "grand conspiracy" theories.

One need not posit a conspiracy to explain something caused by some folks simply being stupid.

Thomas Sowell said something like that.

That's probably where I got it from.

re: #116 BlueCanuck

re: #87 Killgore Trout

Oh snap out in 2010. :(

That's probably for a US or 'international' release. If the Japanese horror film market is anything like the anime market, you should be able to find a fansub of this movie much sooner than that if you really want to see it.

One contradiction for the conspiracy theory, is our involvement in Kosovo.

I have tried to to study the history of this, (from all points of view) and knowing who we allied with does not support the idea of Europe welcoming islamic immigration to thwart our hegemony.

Our actions certainly gave a foothold via the Dayton Agreement.

re: #98 marwan's daughter

I read Eurabia years ago, and my impression was that she is extremely cautious and intelligent about asserting conspiracy-theory type of nonsense. My sense is that she is agreeing with the basic points of our claims about Europe's appeasment / immigration issues, while at the same time demonstrating that in some cases it is worse than we think -- for certain European politicians it is in fact a conscious strategy to ally with the Islamic world against capitalism and 'American-Israeli hegemony'. I don't at all consider myself an expert on this, and am willing to listen to well-documented positions.

re: #119 NoSpam

True, nothing beats cool Japanese films with subtitles.

re: #43 Spiny Norman

They refuse to see that welcoming in the White Nationalists will hamstring the Anti-Islamization movement quicker than anything the politically-correct, multi-cultural Socialist weasels could ever dream up.

Kinda like me seeing Hillary kiss Suha. I'll never forget this sight. That's when I started taking a closer look at Hillary.

Of course, seeing Laura Bush in a burkha and learning that Condoleezza Rice made the Jews go into a conference by the back door didn't make me happy either.

Some images just never go away.

re: #115 Yank in the EU

re: #89 guftafs

It is our not having any distinct Western values to defend anymore that these pockets of hostile groups are sprouting, and are allowed to thrive.

I agree with you that values and ideas are major, major parts of the problem. Nihilism, to give it one word. But this is a question of causality, origin, and explanation; the demographics claim simply points to the sheer, brute fact of numbers. I would have a hard time seeing how this claim can be denied. One can easily admit that there is a numbers, birthrate issue and also that the solutions and explanations you give are also true. To be clear, the demographics issue will only come into effect many years down the road; Europe is not at war with its Muslims now. But it is what Europe does now that will determine whether it survives in decades to come.

Yes, I agree with the last sentence. The potential for bloodsheding is considerable, I would have to say. On the one hand, the leftist axis spouting the destructive tenets of post-modern sh*te, willingly blinding themselves and the populace to an emerging threat, on the other hand the white nationalist axis misidentifying the problem as one pertaining to race. But since the white nationalist axis are the only ones addressing the issue head on I fear they will gain ground and influence. And the Muslims themselves.

Pick your side, make your stand, all sides wrong. All kinds of infighting and strange alliances possible. Welcome to Europe!

re: #115 Yank in the EU

Europe is not at war with its Muslims now.

But....but....but that's what some europeans posting on this blog have told me, as well as others sympathetic towards that line of thinking. They use it to rationalize vlaams belang, but you're telling me they are exaggerators, using it as an excuse for excepting this party as a legitimate partner in fighting islamofascism. I believe you, but how do you combat the mentality of those willing to cling to disinformation because it rationalizes their position?

About all the Eurabia stuff...When I look at Europe, I tend not to see 'Eurabia,' and see more of a generic "going off the rails on a crazy train.*" They are having a massive societal meltdown, but I don't think Islamism will be what replaces the old European values. At the rate the Islamofruits are going, their 'value system' of self-segregation and bigotry is doomed to failure as well.

I don't know what Europe will look like in a generation or so. I'm guessing the whole place will start to look like the old Soviet Union in the 80's, becase with the exception of the bread lines, it sort of looks that way already...

*That song is perfect for this situation. Plus its catchy

PIMF, should have said 'meat lines.' Bread lines are from the Depression...

re: #123 Promethea

Kinda like me seeing Hillary kiss Suha. I'll never forget this sight.

/it's a classic

re: #127 NoSpam

Bread, meat what's the difference? They will probably lining up for both. And to top it off as socialists they will go begging to the U.S.A for handouts to help their poor underclasses.

/hey it could happen.

re: #46 swamprat

The claim goes something like this; " Even though we want Europe, or at least our part of it, to be a white mono-culture, we do not qualify as racist because we are willing to tolerate Jews.

for now

Practicing Jews will always be different from their surrounding cultures because Jewish practices are unique to Jews. Furthermore, practicing Jews are intermixed with all racial types.

Non-practicing Jews tend to fade into the general population; hence the existence of millions and millions of Americans and Europeans with a Jewish grandmother or grandfather.

"Somebody should perhaps inform CJ and his followers that the Scandinavian Left is brimming with Hamas-supporters, Arafat-cheerleaders and anti-Israeli and anti-American attitudes, and that they should be a little bit careful with whom they associate or lend credibility to".

Did Fjordman write this, and mean it as an attack on me? In that case, let me point out that it is blatantly dishonest. I have repeatedly attacked those on the Norwegian Left who support Hamas and that I in no way cheer for Arafat. Let me be rub my own back and quote myself (!):

Akerhaug does say that it is a bad day for Norwegian peace profiters, an amusing term, but who else might this be a bad day for? Is it possible that this is a bad day for - say - Palestinian feminists? One of them was interviewed on Belgian TV recently, and she did not seem thrilled with the idea of having Hamas in power. Perhaps Akerhaug needs to reminded of how a Hamas “morality squad” shot 19-year old Yousra al-Azam to death after she had sat at the beach with her husband-to-be and another couple?

Are Palestinian Liberals having a great day today? How about Palestinian Christians? In fact, the only good news about this election is not that Hamas won, but that Fatah lost. And that is hardly marvellous news seen in context.

Argh.

re: #74 Psaturn

The Muslims are definitely involved in the Eurabia conspiracy theory, but so is - the European Union itself. And the Vatican is involved, too! To my great disappointment, Illuminati isn't. I mean: what's a good conspiracy theory without the Illuminati?

Fallaci summed it up like this (this is my translation from Norwegian, not the English translation, which I do not have availalble):

"The truth, which the responsible have kept silent about as if it was a state secret, is that it is the largest conspiracy of modern history. The most frightening complot that our world - through ideological fraud, cultural piggery, moral prostitution and slippery tricks - have ever created. It is Europe with its' bankers, who have created the farce called the European Union, [etc]".

There is no other way to interpret Bat Ye'or than that the creation of Eurabia is planned on a high level, by people who have kept this a secret; and that leading politicians (of various political colour) must have been involved. That is a conspiracy theory, regardless of how one views immigration in general, Muslim immigration specifically, jihadism as an ideological current or Islam as a religion.

re: #117 AuldTrafford

It goes deeper than that. Sutton (and Debra Kanof, the pitbull who did the day-to-day prosecution) convinced the judge to hold back material facts about the illegal-alien drug smuggler. What the jury heard was that he was just running this one-time load of drugs to help his poor mother, when they knew damn well that he was an experienced drug-runner.

The illegal, Osvaldo Aldrete-Davila, is in fact in jail now for bringing in loads of dope while carrying the get-into-the-USA-free pass Sutton procured for him.

There are plenty of instances in which Sutton lied, obstructed justice and committed ethical breaches to make sure Ramos and Compean went to jail.

IMO, he should be behind bars, and Ramos and Compean should be free.

And since Sutton is Jorge Bush's "great buddy" and is supported by him, well, QED. If there was any justice in this case, two jail cells would be empty and available for occupancy, and I can suggest two people who should fill them.

re: #86 Whiterasta

I'm not aware that Scientology beheads anyone who leaves.

No, but they are reported to do things to those wishing to leave like lock you in a room until you "come to your senses".

Reporting from here in Hollywood, all I can say for sure is that whatever they're doing seems to be a hell of a good money maker-- they've got buildings everywhere. I can't walk down Hollywood Blvd without them assaulting me to take one of their damn "personality tests" or be given "free tickets" to their stupid "museum".

If everything they do is legal, it's because they've taken pains to stay just barely on this side of the law. But I don't think there's any denying that it's basically a huge scam, and I don't fault the Germans for being dubious. Alot of people spend years in that "church", spend all their money, and finally get disillusioned and bugger out only to find themselves older and poorer. But hey-- if it's legal, well... ?

If the Germans wanted to ban a death cult, I can think of one that deserves banning.

Well I'm certainly with ya there.

The website quoted by LGF’s latest post is run by the Norwegian Leftist Øyvind Strømmen. Mr. Strømmen called me a Fascist long before the current debate began. He has also stated that Bat Ye’or’s writings about Eurabia are “conspiracy theories,”

-fj

From what I understand, the 'Eurabia' thesis is, in fact, a conspiracy theory.

"Over the years, Euro-Arab collaboration developed at all levels: political, economic, religious and in the transfer of technologies, education, universities, radio, television, press, publishers, and writers unions."
- Bat Ye'or [Link: www.nationalreview.com...]

Fallaci explicitly uses the term to describe it:

These [European and Arab] entities, Fallaci says, not mincing her words, were the official perpetrators “of the biggest conspiracy that modern history has created,” and Eurabia was their house organ.

[Link: www.laweekly.com...]

Whether or not it is as malicious as some believe, is another question, and just because, as fjordman states,

British Foreign Secretary David Miliband... said in November 2007 that the European Union should expand to include Middle Eastern and North African countries

doesn't mean that his intent is to establish Shariah in Britain.

I agree with Øyvind Strømmen on the point that, although Ye'or is certainly not a fascist, her ideas can be used and abused by fascists to elicit a reaction, and ultimately gain support from frightened Europeans.

This is not a critique of her thesis, and a don't agree with Strømmen that Ye'or is to blame for the fascists abusing her work. However, it is accurate to say that she provides part of the Eurofascist mythos.

re: #129 BlueCanuck

re: #127 NoSpam

Bread, meat what's the difference? They will probably lining up for both. And to top it off as socialists they will go begging to the U.S.A for handouts to help their poor underclasses.

/hey it could happen.

What is five miles long and feeds on potatos?

--The line in front of a Moscow butcher shop

...

What will happen if the Five Year Plan format is applied to the Sahara Desert.

--Nothing for the first couple of years, but soon a shortage of sand will develop.

...

/Jokes from a book on Soviet life in the Glasnost years.

re: #124 guftafs

On target.

re: #125 Sharmuta

Yes, it all requires careful dissection to percieve the truth of matters here. Is the situation growing dire in European countries - meaning requiring urgent action to stop creeping Islamization? Yes, there is no doubt that certain trends must be stemmed and European cultures must strengthen themselves, or face fading away into history. But, as you say, it's not even near the point of large percentages of the populice being Muslim, wide-scale warfare, or threats to the people's basic safety in the vast majority of cases, which is quite contrary to the impression of those who would use that "fear and panic" button to claim uniting with white nationalist thugs is justified.

re: #134 konservo

From what I understand, the 'Eurabia' thesis is, in fact, a conspiracy theory.

....

Good point.

Later, peeps... :)

re: #117 AuldTrafford

re: #102 realwest

I think one of the biggest complaints about the prosecution was its reliance upon the testimony of an acknowledged criminal - the drug smuggler "feloniously assaulted" by the officers. The "witness" was given a free pass across the border (and for the offense being committed at the time of the incident) so he could testify (and, I think, he has been arrested, again, since - not sure about that).

Perhaps more a question of the prosecutor's priorities than strict questions of "legality". "Ethics" is more an issue for the beholder.

Esculpatory evidence was kept from the jury, such as the alleged "victim", Osvaldo Aldrete-Davila's subsequent arrest for transporting another truckload of weed across the border, as well as witness testimony that Davila was always armed at all times (shooting a big hole in Sutton's claim that the "victim" was "clearly" unarmed and that Ramos and Compeon were never in any danger), and many other bits of pertinent information about Border Patrol Incident reporting (only field supervisors are supposed to make written reports - Ramos' and Compeon's supervisor failed to do so, but was given immunity to testify against his subordinates) that were also kept from the jury. When interviewed after the trial, every one of the jurors said that, had they heard any of that, they never would have voted for conviction. Sutton has since used every avenue at his disposal to delay any appeal hearing, such as withholding the trial trascripts for months. There are also credible claims that the Mexican government put pressure on the Bush Administration to make this persecution [sic] a priority.

That whole travesty was political from the very beginning.

And what Mr Scribbler said...

Thank you, Charles.

"This is not a critique of her thesis, and a don't agree with Strømmen that Ye'or is to blame for the fascists abusing her work".

That's cool. I don't know if I, me and myself would agree with me on that point, either. I blame her for being wrong. Not for being used by people that are even more wrong.

"However, it is accurate to say that she provides part of the Eurofascist mythos".

Thanks!

Øyvind

re: #61 Charles

I do, however, have reservations about her theory that a high-level conspiracy is deliberately, consciously directing the "Arabization" of Europe -- the same kinds of reservations I have with almost any "grand conspiracy" theories.

I've had the same doubts about her grand conspiracy theory. A conspiracy is very hard to maintain over time. Yet, it's extremely easy to see how the zeitgeist can change over time. That's what I've observed since I became an anti-Islamist bucking the LLL establishment (i.e. my co-workers, friends, and family).

Could one say that there was a conspiracy to make blue Americans become docile anti-American pacifists? I doubt it. And yet there they are in full force, especially in the media and the school systems.

The enemies of democracy are tri-fold........radical Islam, the radical left, and yes, there are enemies on the right that wish us ill, especially the USA and the English-speaking democracies.

Check out this site of the far right parties in Europe, go carefully through the archives. The same old runes and Odin Cross are everywhere, but what is of some significance is the hatred of "US imperialism", just like the far left.
European National Front

für den gemeinsamen europäischen Kampf im Zweiten Weltkrieg gegen den sowjetischen Bolschewismus und anglo-amerikanischen Imperialismus.

A rather free translation= "for the united European struggle in the Second World War against Soviet Bolshevism and Anglo-American imperialism"

On the left sidebar "The workers are the builders of Europe, victims of capitalism".

Seems they have a lot in common with the hard left, final goals and means may differ, but they do not mean well for the US, UK and democracy.

"57Chevy," "Oladunk," and "saywhat?" have all given this post a minus rating. Would any of you three like to explain why you believe it's OK for Fjordman to ignore factual points?

re: #145 Charles

Doh!

re: #133 zeppenwolf

re: #86 Whiterasta

I'm not aware that Scientology beheads anyone who leaves.

No, but they are reported to do things to those wishing to leave like lock you in a room until you "come to your senses".

Reporting from here in Hollywood, all I can say for sure is that whatever they're doing seems to be a hell of a good money maker-- they've got buildings everywhere.

They make big money by suing people to death... they harass companies, organizations and individuals through litigation on a regular basis, rasta. The COS is one of the most litigious organizations on the planet.

They have an aresenal of lawyers who are ready, willing and able to sue anything that even smells funny, at the drop of a hat.

re: #131 oslogin

That was your point as well, Oyvind.

I've noticed in the past that when a direct question is asked by Mr. Johnson, and no answer is forthcoming, the whompus bat is sure to follow.

re: #131 oslogin

Arabist Hans Jansen, well known and well respected, was present at the conferences Bat Ye Or refers to. He says her book is very well documented. Are you saying he is lying? That means you suggest Bat Ye Or is lying too. What would be her goal in that case? A Zionist conspiracy maybe?

Then again, I would be interested in your opinion on islamization of Europe (et al) , or is that a conspiracy theory too? Yusug al Qaradawi says it isn't. Dutch intelligence say it isn't. Do you? I haven't read your book, but have you included information on the EAD too? I know Europeans like you, obsessed with fascism and suggesting islam- watchers to ve crypto fascists who are after the poor islamists doing nothing. How many fascists are there in Europe? We'll need numbers, dude. Unbiased numbers, checked and double checked. You have raised questions. You wouldn't have a political or commercial interest in this controversy, would you? I mean, with your book coming out and all. What a coincidence this controversy started about 6 weeks ago. I asked you these question on the VB topic. Maybe you'll have the coutersy of answering those very relevant questions. Are you linked or sympathetical to AFA, Antifa or any mutant version of the so called anti- fascists or autonomer? The Norwegian socialist party maybe? I'd like to hear your stand on these issues, because you only pick out some parts of the documentations Bat Ye Or uses. Have you actually contacted Bat Ye Or or Hans Jansen on this matter? That would only be fair after your allegations that Bat Ye Or is spreading nonsensical conspiracy theories, wouldn't you say?

Churchill (?) said: fascists of the future will call themselves anti- fascists. Anyone who denies the islamization of Europe is a islam- appeaser par excellence, because he can not deal with ethical paradoxes. We have quite a few of those in the Netherlands. Allmost all of them leftist cultural relativists and self- islamizationers or dhimmis, as Bat Ye Or calls them. That was a lie or at very best an exaggeration of that great ladie too, maybe? I consider those islam- appeasers fascists. Any support for islam is supporting fascism. How about that? I am very curious now. Convince me, I am always happy to trade in my opinion for a better one.

* takes wine and a cigar and waits *

re: #150 bottehond

Gee, you're still allowed to smoke cigars in Holland?

re: #136 Yank in the EU

Yes, it all requires careful dissection to percieve the truth of matters here. Is the situation growing dire in European countries - meaning requiring urgent action to stop creeping Islamization? Yes, there is no doubt that certain trends must be stemmed and European cultures must strengthen themselves, or face fading away into history. But, as you say, it's not even near the point of large percentages of the populice being Muslim, wide-scale warfare, or threats to the people's basic safety in the vast majority of cases, which is quite contrary to the impression of those who would use that "fear and panic" button to claim uniting with white nationalist thugs is justified.

I agree that the situation needs dealing with- better now than letting it go and allowing it to truly get out of control. But this still does not explain why vlaams belang supporters cling to the notion that the situation is dire. The situation can still be corrected without resorting to extremes, so why are these people continuing to claim "dire circumstances"? Is it possible there are other reasons why these folks would side with vlaams belang other than subscribing to the "desperation" meme? Ideological reasons, perhaps? Because I find it hard to believe that so many vlaams belang apologists could be such willing dupes as to buy into a meme that is clearly alarmist in nature, and not based on fact. Why the stringent support?

Technically, on the internets, Fjordman is free to ignore whatever he wants, facts are a speed bump. He can also pretend the moon is made of green cheese.

/you can't compel him to respond logically, succinctly, and on point, you can only assess his credibility

re: #150 bottehond

You're avatar naked.

/how 'bout I find you a nice Odin's Cross you can upload?

re: #153 Killian Bundy

My, you are in a sharp frame of mind today. Again, well put.

re: #61 Charles

re: #38 swisscottage

Forgive my confusion but has Charles actually expressed an opinion on Bat Yeor's views about Eurabia? Personally I find her books to be very intelligent, persuasive and prescient.

-- the same kinds of reservations I have with almost any "grand conspiracy" theories.

I take it then, that you were not an "X-Files" afficienado?

/the truth is out there

re: #150 bottehond

Is islam the only form of fascism you in which you believe? Just curious.

re: #149 maddogg

I've noticed in the past that when a direct question is asked by Mr. Johnson, and no answer is forthcoming, the whompus bat is sure to follow.

Not always. "baron" and "dymphna" are not banned, and there are others.

re: #155 Pro-Bush Canuck

My, you are in a sharp frame of mind today.

Yeah, well, I'm working hard to change that.

/just need to retain the wherewithal to eventually read Monday's edition of IBD

re: #152 Sharmuta

I mostly concur with what you say. The answers to the questions you seek concern people's true motives, which are always difficult to ascertain with any certainty and may widely vary. My overall impression, through personal contact with VB members, that the motivations (for insisting on the "fear and panic" scenario) are twofold. First, even if the rep. says they personally don't like Dewinter, the VB's Holocaust deniers, and the white nationalist ideology, they often still have justified their position using the famous "we allied with Stalin" bit. But this presupposes the status of impending, kinetic warfare with Muslims on the streets; hence 'we need all the fighters we can find, even those who want to fight under the banner of a homogeneously white nation.' Yet even then this rationalization is flawed for (1) it is is a bad strategy and (2) it often turns out in further discussion that they really don't have too great a problem with the WN ideology or the VB celebrating the memory / inheriting the party of Nazi collaborators. Second, there is also the total laxity and insanity of the left with regard to Islamization, even worse than Pelosi and Clinton, which may help us to have some understanding of why the VB supporters seem to be shrieking that we don't grasp how bad it is. As I have made clear, of course, these rationalizations are not valid justifications for the ideology is flawed per se and it is strategically flawed to think allying with Dewinter, the VB, the BNP, etc. will work.

#160 er, "is" twofold

Charles:

I'm totally on your side regarding Vlaams B. and Fjordman's pitiful ideological reliance on the concept of "race" as a marker of human worth.

What I don't understand is how this notion of Bat Ye'or's "Eurabia" advancing a consipracy theory to "Arabize" Europe came about here, at LGF. I've read the book, and there's absolutely nowhere that she proposes that theory.
On the contrary, she claims--and shows, with plenty of evidence--that the new East/Islam-West alliance, emerging after the creation of Israel, during the Cold War and the post Arab-Israeli wars, and following the oil crisis of the '70s, was a pretty open affair, reached at governmental and pan-European levels, together with the Arab/Islamic states and with the central contribution, thought power and hardware power of the Soviets.
Bat Ye'Or took the time to access open records that point to a clear, well-defined, far-reaching political view, that may be lost to someone who can't read "bureaucratese," but to me, who witnessed the creation of the "Palestinian sainthood" and "Israeli Zionist evil" from upclose, day by day, Pravda by Pravda, Communist disinformation screed by screed, as well as saw Arafat and his PLO murderers being given training camps and living large in Eastern Europe, in exchange for blowing up Eastern European dissidents in Western Europe,
I know there was no "conspiracy."
If the coming together of diverse ideologies and cultures for a common goal is a "conspiracy," then I'll be dammned. The fact that most of the peoples of Europe didn't realize what was happening, and were never asked, just shows a classical European elites' disdain for the "common people," in magical, splendid accord with Bolshevik totalitarianism.

Can anyone show me where Bat Ye'Or argues or even intimates about a "conspiracy" in "Eurabia? Anyone?

re: #150 bottehond

"That means you suggest Bat Ye Or is lying too".

Nope, I suggest she is wrong. To say that she is lying would imply that she knows that she is wrong.

"Yusug al Qaradawi says it isn't".

I generally do not care about what Yusuf al-Qaradawi is saying. He is an Islamist moron with grand visions of his own and his religious buddies' great importance. However, I have never heard him say: "So, me and Jacques Chirac had a cup of cafe latte and then we decided that I would give him oil and then he would give me Europe (har-har-har!)".

"Dutch intelligence say it isn't".

Yeah, right. What about providing evidence for that very creative claim? Just because Dutch intelligence warns that people who perceive themselves as being victimised and who increasingly live in parallel societies may be dangerous, that hardly makes the grand theories of the Eurabia thesis true. Actually, it sorts of disproves it. After all, aren't the Dutch government, and Dutch intelligence, supposed to be in on the Islamisation?

"How many fascists are there in Europe? We'll need numbers, dude. Unbiased numbers, checked and double checked".

Well, I can't give you numbers. I can say something about which parties have obvious ties - historically and today - with fascist groups and which parties are ideologically close to fascism. Then we could look at how many votes these parties get, but that would not really tell us much, because quite a number of people voting for them are hardly fascists. Only in a few countries these parties are of considerable size, Belgium and France being two examples.

"You wouldn't have a political or commercial interest in this controversy, would you? I mean, with your book coming out and all".

Of course I have commercial interest in selling my book :). And I have a political interest to: I want people to realize the influence fascism has on a number of political parties in Europe - and I want people to distance themselves from these parties and rather vote or support someone else, someone more democratically minded.

" What a coincidence this controversy started about 6 weeks ago".

Are you suggesting I had something to do with it? Now, that's original! I have been planning publishing my book for ages, and have postponed it several times. But of course, I am very happy that the discussion takes off just as my book came out. If it had only helped my sales :).

"I asked you these question on the VB topic".

Sorry, must have missed those.

"Are you linked or sympathetical to AFA, Antifa or any mutant version of the so called anti- fascists or autonomer?"

No, I am a supporter of liberal anti-fascism, as you will find described on eurofascism.info. AFA, Antifa etc. are violent groups that are often dominated by political ideas I in no way approve off. Why is this a standard question, at all?

"The Norwegian socialist party maybe?"

As I write in the blogpost Charles links to above, I'm a member of the Green Party. By the way, there's several socialist parties in Norway...

"Any support for islam is supporting fascism. How about that?"

As I have stated many times, I believe Islamofascism is a very real thing, and I believe that there are many other reactionary variants of Islam that are potentially dangerous or at the very least a serious opponent to anyone who supports universal human rights, opposes homophobia and misogyny, believes in free speech, abhors laws against blasphemy, etc. I do, however, not see Islam as a whole as evil, nor do I believe Islam as a whole is fascist.

"*takes wine and a cigar and waits*"

Cheers! I'm enjoying a very nice Bosnian red, myself.

Oh, and by the way: No, I have not concacted Bat Ye'or. I suspect that she has not written emails to all the people she criticises either.

re: #162 ovidius

Can anyone show me where Bat Ye'Or argues or even intimates about a "conspiracy" in "Eurabia? Anyone?

I have to admit, I'm curious about this myself Charles. But maybe I've missed something.

I's like to add that the following idea has worked wonders for groups like the VB and the BNP:

"The left charges 'racism' and 'fascism' at practically anyone who criticizes radical Islam and mass immigration, therefore all of these charges that we are 'extremist', 'racist', etc. are all falsifications by the leftist, PC totalitarians. We are a perfectly respectable party and we just think our nation should return to being white, as it has been for centuries."

In this way, one of the lesser-recognized evils of our time has been the abuse and destruction of such terms and language by the left, throwing them at anyone on the right with reckless abandon. Nevertheless, the meaning of concepts is objective, independent of the left's usage, and we still have the responsibility to discover the truth of people's ideology and reject real racism when it appears.

re: #162 ovidius

the concept of "race" as a marker of human worth.

It's not even a valid scientific reality.

DNA studies do not indicate that separate classifiable subspecies (races) exist within modern humans. While different genes for physical traits such as skin and hair color can be identified between individuals, no consistent patterns of genes across the human genome exist to distinguish one race from another. There also is no genetic basis for divisions of human ethnicity. People who have lived in the same geographic region for many generations may have some alleles in common, but no allele will be found in all members of one population and in no members of any other.

/they've conclusively mapped the human genome, read the results and, if you're a fascist enthusiast, weep

re: #139 Spiny Norman

re: #117 AuldTrafford

re: #102 realwest

I think one of the biggest complaints about the prosecution was its reliance upon the testimony of an acknowledged criminal - the drug smuggler "feloniously assaulted" by the officers. The "witness" was given a free pass across the border (and for the offense being committed at the time of the incident) so he could testify (and, I think, he has been arrested, again, since - not sure about that).

Perhaps more a question of the prosecutor's priorities than strict questions of "legality". "Ethics" is more an issue for the beholder.

Esculpatory evidence was kept from the jury, such as the alleged "victim", Osvaldo Aldrete-Davila's subsequent arrest for transporting another truckload of weed across the border, as well as witness testimony that Davila was always armed at all times (shooting a big hole in Sutton's claim that the "victim" was "clearly" unarmed and that Ramos and Compeon were never in any danger), and many other bits of pertinent information about Border Patrol Incident reporting (only field supervisors are supposed to make written reports - Ramos' and Compeon's supervisor failed to do so, but was given immunity to testify against his subordinates) that were also kept from the jury. When interviewed after the trial, every one of the jurors said that, had they heard any of that, they never would have voted for conviction. Sutton has since used every avenue at his disposal to delay any appeal hearing, such as withholding the trial trascripts for months. There are also credible claims that the Mexican government put pressure on the Bush Administration to make this persecution [sic] a priority.

That whole travesty was political from the very beginning.

No argument; I was just trying to highlight the major issue. All points you make are valid as well.

re: #167 AuldTrafford

Arsenal?

/the Soul Crew's got you're name mate

re: #168 Killian Bundy

Well, I'm a fan of the EPL, and playing around with the Avatars, Arsenal's seemed to show up best (Auld/Old Trafford for my affinity for Man U as well).

I really like the entire European football scene - especially with Champions League in full swing now. Just a lot of fun to watch. My son is into it big time, so it gives us something to chat about, too.

Can't argue with Wenger's season this year - especially after losing Henry to Barca.

re: Bat Ye'or's Eurabia thesis:

It's been a couple years since I read it but as I recall she does not portray a conscious conspiracy to Islamize Europe. Keep in mind, the French are famous cultural chauvinists. It never occured to them they were collaborating with invaders, ESPECIALLY given their colonial history in Arab/Islamic Middle East. It's not for nothing that the language of the native eleite in Algeria, Morroco, Egypt, etc. was French for a very long time. They were in it for the money in full confidence they were dealing with their cultural and intellectual inferiors.

Simultaneously, there was a convergence w/anti-Western civilization types that welcomed the dilution of what they view as an impierial colonizing culture as a good thing.

Basically there was a convergence of dissimilar interests all using and being used by the same tool - Islam.

So yes, there was always conscious intent of one sort or another to be found in the Western collaborators, but one grand overriding conspiracy? No. More like one big FUBAR of unintended consequences.

re: #162 ovidius
Can anyone show me where Bat Ye'Or argues or even intimates about a "conspiracy" in "Eurabia? Anyone?

The entire Eurabia thesis is a conspiracy theory.

"Yet the majority of Europeans, who are not antisemitic, are totally unaware of most of the EAD's policy, since its key deliberations are unrecorded. More research and publications are needed in this field."

[Link: www.nationalreview.com...]

re: #166 Killian Bundy

re: #162 ovidius

the concept of "race" as a marker of human worth.

It's not even a valid scientific reality.

DNA studies do not indicate that separate classifiable subspecies (races) exist within modern humans. While different genes for physical traits such as skin and hair color can be identified between individuals, no consistent patterns of genes across the human genome exist to distinguish one race from another. There also is no genetic basis for divisions of human ethnicity. People who have lived in the same geographic region for many generations may have some alleles in common, but no allele will be found in all members of one population and in no members of any other.

/they've conclusively mapped the human genome, read the results and, if you're a fascist enthusiast, weep

I'm not a geneticist, know nothing about the subject, but aren't different subclassifications of human beings warranted on a perceptual basis? Sounds like the physicist trying to explain that the table your laptop is sitting on really doesn't exist, it's all really atoms with lots of air in between.

re: #162 ovidius

I'm looking for my copy of Eurabia now, can't find it. It's probably at the bottom of a pile of computer books somewhere. But I recall that when I read it (and it's not the easiest book to make it through) there were several points at which I felt it did come close to conspiracy theory territory.

The general concept of "Eurabia" as a dangerous state of unchecked immigration from Islamic countries is not what I have reservations about -- I believe something like that is going on, and Bat Ye'or's book has a wealth of information about it. But I'm skeptical about the idea that this situation is the result of a conscious plot by Euro elites. It's much easier to believe in a convergence of idiocies.

re: #169 AuldTrafford

After playing 20 seasons followed by 10 years of website manager/score reporter duties for a 100 team soccer league, I tend not to pay attention anymore. Call it burn out.

/but, you're right, it's called the beautiful game for a reason

re: #172 guftafs

I'm not a geneticist, know nothing about the subject, but aren't different subclassifications of human beings warranted on a perceptual basis?

Perceptual basis? Such as? If a person has white skin, any genetic anscestors from the African continent must have been really far back there? Yes, I suppose, but so what?

There is one way that it is warranted for medical reasons, such as Tay Sachs and sickle cell, but that's not what I would call a subclassification of humans, but more what is called (I think) population statisitcs.

re: #172 guftafs

I'm not a geneticist, know nothing about the subject, but aren't different subclassifications of human beings warranted on a perceptual basis?

Sure, absolutely, you bet, it's called culture or as they like to say in the trade, environment.

/just get it out of your mind that it's genetic, measurable across populations

re: #160 Yank in the EU

I agree with you. Motivations are not always easy to ascertain. For some- I believe it is because they have a vested interest in the conference (or a vested interest in the vb party membership). Others have spoken for themselves and their motives are open for interpretation. I suggest that if some do not like the conclusions drawn from the interpretations of others' words, than perhaps those supporting vlaams belang should speak more precisely, or make their motivations more clear. The issues involved are too important, imo, to brush aside as nuanced differences of culture, or as differing perspectives of the situation on the ground as it stands now. This is why it is so troubling to see obfuscation coming from vb supporters. Clarity is what is called for here, and it is what we are not receiving from the other side.

bottehond, are you still here?

What the hell is Doekle Terpstra's problem?

re: #175 wahabicorridor

re: #172 guftafs

Perceptual basis? Such as? If a person has white skin, any genetic anscestors from the African continent must have been really far back there? Yes, I suppose, but so what?

There is one way that it is warranted for medical reasons, such as Tay Sachs and sickle cell, but that's not what I would call a subclassification of humans, but more what is called (I think) population statisitcs.

I didn't imply any moral evaluation of any differences between peoples. Sorry if that was unclear. But, as you stated, there are real differences and you can tell, for instance if someone is from Vietnam, or like myself, from Korea, within reasonable accuracy. I just meant that denying the whole concept is incorrect.

re: #177 Sharmuta

Ja, clarity, indeed, is the key.

re: #176 Killian Bundy

re: #172 guftafs

I'm not a geneticist, know nothing about the subject, but aren't different subclassifications of human beings warranted on a perceptual basis?

Sure, absolutely, you bet, it's called culture or as they like to say in the trade, environment.

/just get it out of your mind that it's genetic, measurable across populations

Hey, I'm the one saying culture and ideas are what will settle the issue of whether we will be eunuchs in some caliph's harem or not. I'm just saying I don't think you could or should deny the concept of race. But I'm not a specialist, so I should probably back down here ....

from another thread:
re: #725 EE

re: #719 bottehond

re: #713 EE

Sustain your theory. Big words, where's the analysis?

What exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with the opinion that the US could fight both against radical Islamism and the resurgence of European Nazism? Or do you think that the European neo-Nazis are stupid or morally above the idea of taking advantage of an opportunity to resurge while the US is involved in a different fight?

Do you disagree with a model of US power as being capable of fighting a two-front war, against both the White Fascist Supremacists and the Islamist Fascist Supremacists, the racist supremacists and the religionist supremacists? Do you think that the US is really so weak?

Or do you have a model of the European neo-Nazis as being extremely stupid and incapable of taking advantage of the opportunity afforded by America's attention to the war against radical Islamism? Or do you have a model of the European neo-Nazis as being so moral as to avoid taking advantage of a timing opportunity?

Which is your point? That the US is a paper tiger and incapable of fighting both the islamofascists and the racistfascists? Or that the European neo-Nazis are both extremely stupid and highly moral, so as to avoid taking advantage of our pre-occupation with the radical Islamists?

re: #179 guftafs

I just meant that denying the whole concept is incorrect.

Well, 'race' has become such a loaded term we probably need to replace it with something like 'ethnicity'. I remember a few years back when a severe earthquake hit Japan. They refused medicine from the West because they said something like the dosages would be wrong or some such thing. People were insulted. But they have a point. Different populations do metabolize some things differently, e.g., booze.

re: #183 wahabicorridor

re: #179 guftafs

I just meant that denying the whole concept is incorrect.

Different populations do metabolize some things differently, e.g., booze.

Yes, we sure do.

re: #184 guftafs

re: #183 wahabicorridor

re: #179 guftafs

I just meant that denying the whole concept is incorrect.

Different populations do metabolize some things differently, e.g., booze.

Yes, we sure do.

But fortunately, I metabolize kimchee just fine!

/yum!

re: #140 Spiny Norman

Still, my basic point -- that the people who should be leading the charge to get Ramos and Compean freed are distracting themselves with less-important issues -- remains.

VB, bad as it is, is no direct threat to our society. The abuse of power and contravention of US law by agents of the government is.

No answers from Malkin and her ilk. Hell, even the Huffington Pest is silent, and they display a more virulent hatred for GWB and his minions than anyone this side of the Kos Krazies.

re: #185 wahabicorridor

But fortunately, I metabolize kimchee just fine!

/yum!

Good for you!
/grin

(bbl)

I've been reading Belgian forums a lot lately, that's where I've been -- Charles is correct, VB's leadership is representative of everything bad about Euro Tribal nationialist groups.

Fjordman is just upset because we don't buy the accomodation theory (e.g. we worked with Stalin during WWII,) which is why he doesn't try to convince us otherwise.

BTW: We now have the "Eurabia denialists", but the next buzzword will be "Naziphobia".... saw that one cropping up in the forums quite a bit the past few weeks.

So now we are Eurabia denialist hedonistic neocon zionists ...

It just keeps getting better!

re: #173 Charles

But I'm skeptical about the idea that this situation is the result of a conscious plot by Euro elites. It's much easier to believe in a convergence of idiocies.

Exactly. There are a few theories that emerge from "Eurabia", this being the most plausible.

It’s reminiscent of the global warming crowd’s quest to label critics “deniers.”

Good point.

re: #165 Yank in the EU

In this way, one of the lesser-recognized evils of our time has been the abuse and destruction of such terms and language by the left, throwing them at anyone on the right with reckless abandon. Nevertheless, the meaning of concepts is objective, independent of the left's usage, and we still have the responsibility to discover the truth of people's ideology and reject real racism when it appears.

Absolutely, and in my opinion, it is this obfuscation of language that the opportunists are using with great abandon themselves to hide in plain sight. If "everyone critical of islam" is a "nazi", the actual nazis don't need to hide, do they?

Heh, Cowboys win again! 28-27 over Detroit.

How 'bout them Cowboys?:)

re: #188 Thanos

So now we are Eurabia denialist hedonistic neocon zionists ...

We're going to have to wait for at least one more vowel before we can get a good anagram out of that.

Charles,
Please remove the 4th negative on this post, it was fingers moving ahead of brain. Was supposed to be a positive.

re: #188 Thanos

So now we are Eurabia denialist hedonistic neocon zionists ...

It just keeps getting better!

We're supercalinaziphobicexpealidocious.

I understand that the Odin's Cross is used as a white power symbol. But, I'm not clear on what is wrong with using a rat to symbolize one's organization.

I don't like rats, and most people don't, but that clearly isn't the entirety of the problem here.

Could someone fill me in?

re: #181 guftafs

I'm just saying I don't think you could or should deny the concept of race.

Well, I won't launch into a genetics lecture because, frankly, it's been so long I'm no longer qualified. Let me put it this way, if you believe, for example, that Koreans are a "race", then you must also accept that chimpanzees are a human "race" also, The genome is that close.

/of course chimpanzees will eventually have to lose that extra chromosome pair, or maybe we'll have to pick it up

re: #151 Pro-Bush Canuck

In my own home, no man tells me what to do. If gentlemen are forbidden to perform the art of smoking an excellent cigar, we have become slaves to the tiranny of mediocracy and petit bourgeois' collectivists ethics.

re: #196 Pastorius

I understand that the Odin's Cross is used as a white power symbol. But, I'm not clear on what is wrong with using a rat to symbolize one's organization.

I don't like rats, and most people don't, but that clearly isn't the entirety of the problem here.

Could someone fill me in?

The points are:

1) The cartoon rat has a history of use by fascist groups.

2) That particular rat is seen in several editions of the VB youth magazine, wearing an Odin's Cross armband.

re: #196 Pastorius

I understand that the Odin's Cross is used as a white power symbol. But, I'm not clear on what is wrong with using a rat to symbolize one's organization.

I don't like rats, and most people don't, but that clearly isn't the entirety of the problem here.

Could someone fill me in?

We could care less about vermin being used to represent fascists. They can take that sign. It's more fitting than the swastika, which is a Hindu symbol. However, the idiots at GoV were, and still are, spinning like a top about the VB rat.

re: #196 Pastorius

It was explained here on the previous rat thread.

re: #191 Sharmuta

Bingo. I would not use the term "Nazi" to describe these groups that must be discriminated against (except for Haider's party and the NPD, who are neo-Nazi) because of its specific denotation, but your meaning is clear enough.

re: #196 Pastorius

I understand that the Odin's Cross is used as a white power symbol. But, I'm not clear on what is wrong with using a rat to symbolize one's organization.

I don't like rats, and most people don't, but that clearly isn't the entirety of the problem here.

Could someone fill me in?

Wear one on a teeshirt everywhere you go for the next week, then you can come back and fill use in, n'est ce pas?

re: #197 Killian Bundy

re: #181 guftafs

I'm just saying I don't think you could or should deny the concept of race.

Well, I won't launch into a genetics lecture because, frankly, it's been so long I'm no longer qualified. Let me put it this way, if you believe, for example, that Koreans are a "race", then you must also accept that chimpanzees are a human "race" also, The genome is that close.

/of course chimpanzees will eventually have to lose that extra chromosome pair, or maybe we'll have to pick it up

What would you call the regional differences then, if not "races"? You can tell people apart. Except of course in the US, very confusing, such massive immigration and intermarriaging should be outlawed *grumble* *grumble*

re: #201 jeppo

Dude, I'm still surprised you have an account. Your avatar is pushing it.

re: #174 Killian Bundy

I understand, but too bad - this is a good year, both in EPL and Champions League. Man U, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal all have real desire, and are still in it. Man City is even making a pretty credible run, tho likely to fade a bit in the Christmas rush.

CL is even more interesting, I think, with only Man U really coasting. Rangers & Celtic are proving entertaining, too.

But I can see where you're burnt out on it.

re: #198 bottehond

I posed a question for you in #178

What the hell is Doekle Terpstra's problem?

re: #150 bottehond

"That means you suggest Bat Ye Or is lying too".

Nope, I suggest she is wrong. To say that she is lying would imply that she knows that she is wrong.

* wrong by ignorance, stupidity or Zionist paranoïd?

"Yusug al Qaradawi says it isn't".

I generally do not care about what Yusuf al-Qaradawi is saying. He is an Islamist moron with grand visions of his own and his religious buddies' great importance. However, I have never heard him say: "So, me and Jacques Chirac had a cup of cafe latte and then we decided that I would give him oil and then he would give me Europe (har-har-har!)".

* You are pretty ignorant of the strategic genious of islamists, dude. Maybe you consider them intellectual inferiour tou you. Oops, hidden racism?

"Dutch intelligence say it isn't".

Yeah, right. What about providing evidence for that very creative claim? Just because Dutch intelligence warns that people who perceive themselves as being victimised and who increasingly live in parallel societies may be dangerous, that hardly makes the grand theories of the Eurabia thesis true. Actually, it sorts of disproves it. After all, aren't the Dutch government, and Dutch intelligence, supposed to be in on the Islamisation?

* Dude, are you a featherweight? Check

www.aivd.nl

on this subject. And they serve polically correct gouvernment. You say you know better than the entire Dutch intelligence office? They are somewhat interconnected to US and Brittish and French and German intelligence, didn't you know?

* to be continued *

re: #196 Pastorius

Nice music on your blog. The one piece (video) Erik Satie - Gnossiennes, just had to be filmed in the Pacific Northwest, I see alder trees, vine maples, evergreens and salmon.

re: #193 wahabicorridor

re: #188 Thanos

So now we are Eurabia denialist hedonistic neocon zionists ...

We're going to have to wait for at least one more vowel before we can get a good anagram out of that.

"good anagram"
Ha,ha. That made me laugh

I haven't read the thread, I don't feel the need to since it's probably repeat #16 of the same circumlocuitous discussion we've been having. The question is does a new argument or reason exist?

re: #212 Thanos

The question is does a new argument or reason exist?

No.

There's been a second church shooting in Colorado - off to watch the news.

re: #203 Yank in the EU

It's not much different with the left here in America. They smear many Republicans as racist, which is of course untrue. But this does not negate the fact that there are real racists. In this sense- those on the left opposed to real racism have done themselves a grave disservice by watering down the language. I have asked repeatedly that if "everyone is a racist" and hence shouldn't be stated, then what am I supposed to call an actual racist? I haven't been given an answer yet.

Here jeppo- this is for you.

re: #214 Sharmuta

I agree with you. When Clinton got himself in trouble, the lefties also told us that everyone is a liar; their point seemed to be that even if you did it and caused someone injury, it was OK because everyone does it. Kinda tough to differentiate now.

Maybe their point is that everyone is evil, so they should have power so they can fix it/us ...

re: #205 guftafs

What would you call the regional differences then, if not "races"? You can tell people apart.

There are discernible difference across regional populations, historical populations clusters evolve and perpetuate themselves.

/what I'm saying is that any visible human genetic differences are purely cosmetic, not meaningful, look elsewhere for superiority

I could show you DNA profiles of Ayaan Hirsch Ali and Philip Dewinter, side by side.

/you'd be reduced to guessing who was who

re: #61 Charles

re: #38 swisscottage

Forgive my confusion but has Charles actually expressed an opinion on Bat Yeor's views about Eurabia? Personally I find her books to be very intelligent, persuasive and prescient.

I think Bat Ye'or has done very good work documenting the history of the dhimmitude concept in "Islam and Dhimmitude," and in "Eurabia," sounding a much-needed warning siren on the effect of uncontrolled immigration from Islamic countries.

I do, however, have reservations about her theory that a high-level conspiracy is deliberately, consciously directing the "Arabization" of Europe -- the same kinds of reservations I have with almost any "grand conspiracy" theories.

I am not too keen on grand conspiracy theories either.

But:

In the early seventies I happened to be in the check-out line of a supermarket somewhere in the Netherlands. As it was Saturday, the place was crowded and with my cart I must have bumped into the Turkish or Moroccan woman ahead of me in the line. The woman, wrapped in several layers of non-descript beige clothes and a head-scarf, turned around and hissed: "Just you wait. We in charge here one day!"

This was in the early seventies, almost forty years ago. When we were importing "guest workers to do the work Dutch people did not want to do". Does that sound like a person who comes to another country to earn some money and find a better life? Or did (some of) those early arrivals already have the intention of creating an islamic Europe? Colour me suspicious!

Just before the arrival of these "guest workers" a law that prohibited marriage between cousins was taken off the books "because such marriages hardly ever happened in the Netherlands and this law was not necessary anymore". Hm, just before the great influx of people who did have a habit of marrying their cousins. What was the interest of the Dutch government to remove that specific old law? I am sure there are plenty of old laws on the books that nobody has used for decades. What happened to spring-cleaning those out as well?

When you bring your partner to the Netherlands it takes a couple of years before that partner becomes a permanent resident. Many muslims from Morocco and Turkey then divorce that partner and marry another one from the home country. The new permanent resident does the same. Some have imported half a dozen partners (with children of former marriages, if any). Apparently the members of the Muslim community in the town of Dordrecht are all from the same village, I forgot whether it was in Turkey or Morocco! Now don't tell me this is not organized at some level, somewhere. This is simply not normal human behaviour!

The basis is there right in the Koran: go and take over the rest of the world for Allah. Maybe all it takes is a little shove here and there?

"How many fascists are there in Europe? We'll need numbers, dude. Unbiased numbers, checked and double checked".

Well, I can't give you numbers. I can say something about which parties have obvious ties - historically and today - with fascist groups and which parties are ideologically close to fascism. Then we could look at how many votes these parties get, but that would not really tell us much, because quite a number of people voting for them are hardly fascists. Only in a few countries these parties are of considerable size, Belgium and France being two examples.

* Close to fascism? According to whom? many european parties are for big gouvernment and little choice for citizens. Strictkly taken: fascist. I think socialist and communist parties get many votes. You call them fascists? green Parties are extreme left all over Europe. Some of them human beings in general, some of them are very fanatica"anti"fascist". Fritz Perls ones said: in the end you become what you fight. I have studied the development of leftwing organisations. Do you know Volkert van der Graaf? Do you know PETA? Green stuff.

"You wouldn't have a political or commercial interest in this controversy, would you? I mean, with your book coming out and all".

Of course I have commercial interest in selling my book :). And I have a political interest to: I want people to realize the influence fascism has on a number of political parties in Europe - and I want people to distance themselves from these parties and rather vote or support someone else, someone more democratically minded.

* More democratically minded? What kind of democracy would that be? Do you think islam needs protection from you? Green and Leftwing parties are marching against virtually non- existent fascism (except from the religion of peace) all over the continent. In the Netherlands we have a social democrat party. I need not mention to you that virtually ALL socilist, social- democrats and green parties consider and support islam as a neutral religion that is being hyjacked by some non- influential idiots and madmen. That is a misconception, completely ignoring the difference between a grouculture and the extremely (and uniquely( individuated society we live in.

* to be continued *

Remember the "anti-islamization demonstration" in Brussels this year?

"Der Spiegel" wrote, that a good part of the demonstrators were neo-nazis with neo-nazi emblems.

You can see some of them here after they were arrested. Shaven and typically dressed.

re: #217 Killian Bundy

re: #205 guftafs

What would you call the regional differences then, if not "races"? You can tell people apart.

There are discernible difference across regional populations, historical populations clusters evolve and perpetuate themselves.

/what I'm saying is that any visible human genetic differences are purely cosmetic, not meaningful, look elsewhere for superiority

Denying a concept or fact that is valid is bad. Like Islam is not violent, but peaceful. I agree the relevance is merely medical or physiological. I am a firm supporter of the smallest minority, the individual.
/not looking for superiority. ending this thread here.

The supporters of the VB group, GoV, etc. etc. are being intellectually dishonest. It's difficult to believe they are stupid. I don't think they are. I also believe they care about their countries but have become hopelessly misguided.

But they must know they are being dishonest at some level (why else would they twist their brains into such silly defensive rhetoric) but apparently would prefer to do so in order to be accepted by whichever group they've decided to cast in their lot rather than be an 'outcast'.

re: #221 zuckerlilly

Remember the "anti-islamization demonstration" in Brussels this year?

"Der Spiegel" wrote, that a good part of the demonstrators were neo-nazis with neo-nazi emblems.

You can see some of them here after they were arrested. Shaven and typically dressed.

You can also see in the Belgian political forums where they were organizing and bussing in groups -- at one point they got into an argument on theory and started trading Hitler vids to counterpoint in the forum.

re: #221 zuckerlilly

Remember the "anti-islamization demonstration" in Brussels this year?

"Der Spiegel" wrote, that a good part of the demonstrators were neo-nazis with neo-nazi emblems.

You can see some of them here after they were arrested. Shaven and typically dressed.

The problem this American has with reports like the one you cite in Der Spiegel are:

1. The German press makes the U.S. MSM look right wing. There is not even a whiff of pretence to 'objectivity'.

2. Germans are super-sensitive to the merest taint of Nazism

3. Americans are fighting the Islamists, anti-Americanism is rife in Europe. Portraying European anti-jihadis as collaborators or dupes of neo-nazis serves the European anti-American agenda.

Bottom line: I have absolutely no tools to evaluate a report like that. I've seen German Union mags report on American venture capitalists as 'locusts'. I trust European media less than I do U.S. media and that's saying something.

re: #222 guftafs

Again, I think the Human Genome Project states the truth quite elegantly:

DNA studies do not indicate that separate classifiable subspecies (races) exist within modern humans. While different genes for physical traits such as skin and hair color can be identified between individuals, no consistent patterns of genes across the human genome exist to distinguish one race from another. There also is no genetic basis for divisions of human ethnicity. People who have lived in the same geographic region for many generations may have some alleles in common, but no allele will be found in all members of one population and in no members of any other.

/read it over and over again until it sinks in.

Cheers! I'm enjoying a very nice Bosnian red, myself.

* I have a Spanish wine. One of the first Spanish wines I like. French wine sucks, Chilian I like very much.

Oh, and by the way: No, I have not concacted Bat Ye'or. I suspect that she has not written emails to all the people she criticises either

* Since you are aiming at dowplaying the Eurabia- thing and it evidently is a threat to your view on islam, I feel that is realy very very weak. Bat Ye Or is a respected writer, how could you accuse that grand lady even without het given the chance to respond to your critique. Scusi, but I feel that is all too easy. Maybe you should ask her to invite you for the weekend. That would only be fair after your massive attack. You are not a journalist, but your book might have gained credibility should you have done so. Now it's your word against....? Euhmmmm.

BTW: have you responded to my question as to WHY Bat Ye Or would be lying, or fantasizing or being paranoid? I asked you about maybe her being a pro Israel troll who abuses her scientifical status to serve Zionism?

You seem like an honest man, you have answered my questions honestly. You say Bat Ye Or is wrong: I say you are wrong, because you started this thing biased. No problem for me. I respect you for taking a stand and contributing to where you believe in. Is it possible for you (intectually and ethically) to consider the possibility ythat you are wrong and " Cassandra" (not my words) Ye Or is right?

Respect for your forwardness.

Follow up:

I'm not denying there were neo-nazis there. I'm simply saying I don't know which syLABle to put the emPHAsis on.

BTW, apparently, Vlaams Belang had an agreement with the SIOE people that they reneged on, pissing off the SIOE guys. But I don't know any details. Can someone fill me in?

I think there were a number of excellent observations from Bat Ye'or's "Eurabia" book, and that the book (even given its flaws) is worthwhile to read. Like Charles, I also felt (at times) that she was (at times) straying into conspiracy theories. For example, just because the Arab League and the EU write-up talking points or present proposals about how much they will scratch each others' backs -- it doesn't necessarily mean that "this took place." From observing Arab leadership behaviour, btw, I've also found a tendency for this group to make claims about their "power" - that is, their political power -- and they make a lot of claims -- as if they are really, really "movers and shakers" in the political realm -- a force to be reckoned with. Thus, in a leadership convention, they'll make claims that it was due to their votes that Candidate X was elected as the Leader of the party. A lot of this is pure b.s. (or wishful thinking). It's boosterism. (along the lines of -- if everybody thinks Arab group X is all-powerful, then maybe they will become powerful...) Anyway, I personally don't buy the "central planning" aspects of "Eurabia"...

re: #147 irish rose,

They sound suspiciously like the NAACP.

Learn to use the quote functionality, Please! It is convenient and simple to use!

Unless of course you don't want to be read by those who don't want or don't have the time to page back and forth determining who wrote what.

re: #221 zuckerlilly

Would you be interested in the assessment of that incident by someone who actually witnessed it? About those boldheaded guys? That being me. Let me give you this link for starters:

re: #227 americanstar

In the 1930's US judges sided in favor of Hitler when he stopped the full publication of Mein Kampf by a Californian Senator; would only allow Americans to read a stripped down version endorsed by Hitler.

re: #229 wahabicorridor

I could. But I get so many minus evaluations that maybe I am not the person to fill you in. I was there.

re: #227 americanstar

Also there is a major difference today; it is called Israel.

re: #61 Charles

I personally do believe there is a conspiracy, however, it is an unspoken conspiracy of common interests rather than an agreed upon plan. The Socialist Left in Europe all benefit from the Muslim invasion because when they attain voting rights they vote to keep the Socialists in power so long as the Socialists deliver feed from the pubic trough. The same situation exists in the US. There is no overt conspiracy on the part of the Democrats to do nothing to stop massive illegal immigration but there is an understand that the Democrats will benefit electorally if they do nothing to stop it. This I believe rises to the level of conspiracy, albeit an informal one, because each benefitting party to the arrangement knows what is gained from the arrangement without having to formalize it. The US Dems and European Socialists don't have to actually say "hey vote for me and I'll make sure you get government goodies" but it's understood by both the immigrants and their would be masters.
The European Left is just as contemptuous of Western culture as US Dems that they would destroy it just to remain in power.

re: #229 wahabicorridor

BTW, apparently, Vlaams Belang had an agreement with the SIOE people that they reneged on, pissing off the SIOE guys.

I know they had a blow-up and the SIOE people, apparently, accused the VB of taking over the event they organized to stage a public, international scene for their party at Schumann Square / EU parliament where they conflicted with the police and were told not to demonstrate. Perhaps someone else has researched the details?

re: #227 americanstar,

It wont calm your fears to know that while I think VB, Fjordman, The Baron, and Brussels Journal have a ways to go before they are that dangerous, I believe that they desire to be that dangerous. That is why this mess has blown up like it has.

They never expected to get called on their White Nationalist fantasys.

re: #225 wahabicorridor

Here's the forum where they were organising support, don't say "I have no tools" unless you are willing to read the nine pages of the thread and understand who was going, and why. You see them trading Horst Mahler and Hitler vids to counter each others arguments, which is interesting. You also read that several groups were coming in buses.

There are also articles on the Stop the Islamization of Europe blog that support some of the conclusions. We multi-source here, below are the posts, #2 is the interesting one.

SIOE Post 1
SIOE Post 2
SIOE Post 3

re: #233 bottehond

re: #221 zuckerlilly

Would you be interested in the assessment of that incident by someone who actually witnessed it? About those boldheaded guys? That being me. Let me give you this link for starters:

[Link: nl.youtube.com...]

A disgusting piece of propaganda. Intellectual dishonest.

re: #201 jeppo

Directly responding to Charles while sporting the VB logo,

/gutsy

re: #238 Yank in the EU

Now you see why I dislike and distrust VB on the islamization- dossier? The demonstration was going to be forbidden by Sheik ThielemanSS. Then VB turned up, because many good Flemmish people wanted to join SIOE. Filip de "Johnny"Winter hyjacked our cause and turned this thing into VB vs. the Belgian SState. Freddy wanted to shut up "islamophobia", but was enabled by VB to turn this thing into an anti-VB thing. Mind you: first Mufti ThielemanSS said he wouldn't allow an ant- islamization demonstration because it could and would provoke islamist bombthrowers. Dhimmitude in action (the votes are a nice bonus, off course). Someone there showed me pics from Schaerbeek, the week before. An illegal demonstration of 4000 jihadi-islamists demanding Jews to be killed. I shit you not. Anyway: Filip Dewinter did much harm there. He personnaly silenced the anti- islamizationers. I wonder why. I have info on those skinheads too.

re: #221 zuckerlilly

Remember the "anti-islamization demonstration" in Brussels this year?

"Der Spiegel" wrote, that a good part of the demonstrators were neo-nazis with neo-nazi emblems.

You can see some of them here after they were arrested. Shaven and typically dressed.

re: #221 zuckerlilly

Remember the "anti-islamization demonstration" in Brussels this year?

"Der Spiegel" wrote, that a good part of the demonstrators were neo-nazis with neo-nazi emblems.

You can see some of them here after they were arrested. Shaven and typically dressed.

Apparently there were just a few. Of course they would be shown (twice!) in the same news cast by the Belgian MSM. And notice how they are allowed to walk away? While the politicians (some even members of Parliament) of the Vlaams Belang are wrestled to the ground like thugs. [Link: www.brusselsjournal.com...] Of course, those are the people who are against dhimmi mayor Thielemans...

Be careful what you read in the European press, our MSM puts yours to shame!

Having waded through a number of Fjordman’s posts, they strike me as a bit too long with just a bit too much defense of small things, but still missing important pieces of information that would shed light on his writings. This bothers me; what information is knowingly withheld?

Prior to 1945, (at least Northern and Central) Europe was almost exclusively “white”, and had been for 3000 years, maybe more. There were individual Africans in parts of Europe (the Romans “imported” everyone), and possibly others, but identifying any, by name or contribution prior to perhaps 1900, is tough.

European culture is historically and effectively “white”. To see an “all-white-people” political party in an area that has been essentially “all-white-people” for thousands of years should not be surprising or particularly alarming. Ditto for this political party to espouse its culture.

The appearance, of course, is racist.

Europe is beset with a high rate of immigration, with inevitable problems.

Very many of the immigrants are illegal, and very many of the legal and illegal varieties live exclusively, and for extended periods of time, on welfare. Add in a very different culture & behavior and a refusal to assimilate (and in many cases an attempt to enforce immigrant culture) and the problems mount.

Unsurprisingly, immigration falls on racial lines. But for the Europe natives to try to control, limit or even discuss immigration appears racist

Specifically, if a group of Norwegians or Dutch or Poles or Hungarians form a political party, is this racist? If they wish to limit immigration to their country, to reduce welfare eligibility, to promote their indigenous language and culture, is this racist? Others do this, and the answer is “no”.

If they adopt neo-Nazi signs, uniforms, rhetoric, etc., then “yes”, and this is a major problem.

I dislike even appearing to defend the “Rightist” (or whoever they really are) position in Europe, but if we’re going to criticize, let’s at least get as much known information out for analysis and discussion. Let’s criticize them for the correct reasons, not Politically Correct reasons.

I try to look into the future, and I see bad times ahead for Europe. Will they go the way of Lebanon (80% Christian in 1950, now, 57 years later, effectively a Muslim state, and people are leaving) or certain West Bank cities (*5% Christian in 1960, now, 47 years later, ~10%), or will they forceably expel the Muslims?

Is there an alternative, a middle ground? I’d like to avoid the possibility of having to choose between neo-Nazis or letting Europe fall. If there’s something we can do to prevent this, perhaps we should do it. I’d rather sort out now who the players are and fix what I can.

We need to avoid a Muslim Europe. We see the events in Darfur, Southern Sudan, areas in the former Yugoslavia, Indonesia and Pakistan; we know the meanings of the Arabic word “abd”; we know the sermons, in Arabic, of various Muslim clerics, preached today.

If Fjordman, or any of Fjordman’s supporters are reading this thread, kindly pay attention.

Lose the uniforms and the neo-Nazi values, rhetoric, etc. When the VB or the Sweden Democrats, or any other political party, combine neo-Nazi stuff with anti-jihadi political planks, they endanger the anti-jihadi movement and their own cultures.

It is Western Culture, concepts (“racism is bad”, all men are created equal, etc.) and arms that put an end to slavery (and the idea that slavery is legitimate).

The world where Western values (and arms) hold sway is safe for me and mine, you and yours and everyone else. Step into a part of the world where Western values (and arms) do not hold sway, and you will live the experience.

We need to keep Western Culture and Values, not the failed Leftist-Socialist crap. It’s time to bury the neo-Nazi stuff. Once was enough.

re: #239 Iron Fist

You think? Okay: that means you have a logical reason for waht you say. You say it just a little bit too easy, my friend. Explain why you think what you post?

re: #235 bottehond

re: #229 wahabicorridor

I could. But I get so many minus evaluations that maybe I am not the person to fill you in. I was there.

Well, as one poster here has so succinctly put it, the only authority any of us answers to is Charles. Check out who is giving you the minuses - could be she's among them. ;).

You were there so you ARE at least one person who can fill us in, so I think you should.

And you still haven't answered my question:

What the hell is Doekle Terpstra's problem?

re: #238 Yank in the EU

I know they had a blow-up and the SIOE people, apparently, accused the VB of taking over the event they organized to stage a public, international scene for their party at Schumann Square / EU parliament where they conflicted with the police and were told not to demonstrate. Perhaps someone else has researched the details?

So far so good with the explanation, but where does the 'previous agreement' part come in? VB previously agreed w/SIOE not to demonstrate?

re: #243 bottehond

re: #238 Yank in the EU

Now you see why I dislike and distrust VB on the islamization- dossier? The demonstration was going to be forbidden by Sheik ThielemanSS. Then VB turned up, because many good Flemmish people wanted to join SIOE. Filip de "Johnny"Winter hyjacked our cause and turned this thing into VB vs. the Belgian SState. Freddy wanted to shut up "islamophobia", but was enabled by VB to turn this thing into an anti-VB thing. Mind you: first Mufti ThielemanSS said he wouldn't allow an ant- islamization demonstration because it could and would provoke islamist bombthrowers. Dhimmitude in action (the votes are a nice bonus, off course). Someone there showed me pics from Schaerbeek, the week before. An illegal demonstration of 4000 jihadi-islamists demanding Jews to be killed. I shit you not. Anyway: Filip Dewinter did much harm there. He personnaly silenced the anti- islamizationers. I wonder why. I have info on those skinheads too.

Completly agree -- they will coat-tail anything, and they will stab you in the back if it fits their mood.
They spend as much time attacking NVA and other putative allies a they do Thielmans.

ALL:

The pertinent links about the SIOE dust-up are in my post above.

re: #243 bottehond

Anyway: Filip Dewinter did much harm there. He personnaly silenced the anti- islamizationers.

That's quite a charge, and I don't discount its truth, but it's extremely difficult to reach a point of independent factuality with these types of things. Between the leftist, state run press and the kind of non-rational defenses of the VB (who cover up the white nationalist ideology, defend it, or never deal with Holocaust deniars like VB Vice President in 2001 Roland Raes) we read everyday, I hardly trust anything except what can be known as obvious fact. I'm sure the pro-VB side has devoted tens of thousands of words to justifying why the changed the entire venue, as organized by the SIOE, with many forceful supporters backing their accounts about how it was all about the EUSSR oppressing them (not that they don't, of course). I actually went there, but did not see much and must have been on the way when the tiny demonstration happened.