Bah Humbug!

Nobody should be a Muslim.

His conversion sounds rather regressive to me.

Only if you consider Love to be regressive.

I hope Mr. Ajmal Masroor will someday learn the truth.

Merry Christmas.

Yup, that would've been mighty sporting of him to join the religion of mass murder.

The Grauniad is entirely staffed by atheists and secularists. Just goes to show the depths to which they will plunge in order to promote their communist agenda. Hand the megaphone over to a religious maniac? Sure -- just as long as he bashes the dominant paradigm!

I forgot, since I missed the previous thread
Merry Christmas to all the Christian lizards and their families,
belated Happy Hanukah to all the Jewish lizards and their families,
happy holiday to all the atheist lizards and their families and anyone I left out.

This tool states at the end:

He might have found redemption for his crimes against Iraq and its innocent people. His conversion to Catholicism would no doubt remind the Muslim world, especially the Arab world of the history of the Crusades. The blood of millions of people still stain the cobblestones of the Holy Land from the cold-blooded murders committed in the name of Christianity and was blessed by the then Papacy in Rome.

As usual he as well as others live centuries in the past and remember only the crusades. I challenge him and others to show me the 'millions' killed in that time by the Christians. There weren't.

What's more, the amount slaughtered by the 'progressive' muslims is glossed over. What about the 'millions' slaughtered in the name of islam over the centuries? Christianity did have its moments of killing to force conversation, but no where on the scale that islam has done. What's more, we grew up and out of that.

Christianity is the progressive religion. It grows and changes and recognizes its shortfalls and works to change them. Islam stays in the 7th century...or earlier...and refused to move forward.

So, Merry Christmas to all and the blessings of Christ the Lord upon you all.

Yeah, the Koran is so progressive...that's why Muslims are so educated, wealthy, broad-minded, inventive and pacific.

'He is right that the Quran is progressive and as a revealed book of God, it is the latest testament.'

. Islamic nations lead the world in inflicting corporal punishment on victims of gang rape.

Convert to islam! Beat your wife with impunity! Kill your daughters for honor! Kill the Jews, Christians etc. etc!

My favorite quote from this nonsense:

"His new Church has been the most exclusive and in the name of its own version of Christianity has murdered and destroyed the lives and properties of many fellow Christians over the years."

Really? Are you kidding me? Really? I am the first to acknowledge the faults and failings of my beloved Church, but really? Can this guy be that dim as to have said this?

Merry Christmas anyway!

AndyMacOP

Here's to Progress!
◊ Beheadings
◊ Bombings
◊ Honor killings

His conversion to Catholicism Islam would no doubt remind the Muslim Christian world, especially the Arab world West of the history of the Crusades jihad. The blood of millions of people still stain the cobblestones of the Holy Land streets of the world from the cold-blooded murders committed in the name of Christianity Islam and was apparently blessed by the then Papacy in Rome silence of "moderate" Muslims.

Fixed!

For once the Grauniad should be read, instead of used as birdcage liner or fishwrapper.

Read and think, Brits, read and think.

If Blair really did say all those things and the Koran and Islam being "progressive" and "inclusive" and "the revealed word of God" and blahblahblah -- which I have no doubt he did -- then he's even more of a dhimmi than George Bush was when he said Islam is a "religion of peace."

It's depressing how flaccid and un-brave our leaders really are. Blair and Bush are pilloried by the Left and the islamic street for being "crusaders" and "imperialists," but they're major disappointments to me.

His conversion to Catholicism would no doubt remind the Muslim world, especially the Arab world of the history of the Crusades.

Actually the Crusades should remind Muslims that Christians have a right-of-return to all the lands of the Middle East and North Africa taken from Christians by Muslims.

If Catholicism is "regressive" then what "progress" has Islam made, in say, the last 400 years?

Blair has claimed on many occasions that he has read the Quran and has said he found its teachings “progressive”.

He was using taqiyya when he said that.

re: #18 perfectsense

His conversion to Catholicism would no doubt remind the Muslim world, especially the Arab world of the history of the Crusades.

Actually the Crusades should remind Muslims that Christians have a right-of-return to all the lands of the Middle East and North Africa taken from Christians by Muslims.

I think EVERYTHING reminds the Muslim world about the Crusades.

Merry Christmas to all!

OT

Fatah Loyalists Escape from Egypt Prisons

He might have found redemption for his crimes against Iraq and its innocent people.

To the best of my knowledge, the koran says nothing about redemption...or salvation.

His conversion to Catholicism the Islamic cult would no doubt remind the Muslim world, especially the Arab world of the history of the CrusadesMuslim savage invasion of peaceful Christian lands.. The blood of millions of people still stain the cobblestones of the Holy Land from the cold-blooded murders committed in the name of ChristianityIslam and was blessed by the then Papacy in Rome Mad 'Prophet' Mohamed.

re: #19 looking closely

If Catholicism is "regressive" then what "progress" has Islam made, in say, the last 400 years?

Velcro burqa's. Oh and a Merry and Blessed Christmas to all. F**k isslam.

Join the fastest conquering religion in the world today! Satisfaction is guaranteed, or a fatwa is proclaimed on your head within 30 days. Sign up with your local Caliphate-certified Imam today, and enjoy the religion that's got all of North Africa yelling "Allahuakbar, Jihad Jihad!".

blood worshippers

I agree, christianity is regressive.

While christians have lagged in the practice of Killing innocent people, Islam has perfected it.

re: #2 maddogg

Thats absolutely correct , and why my deepest sympathies go out to "nobody" in Islam ...

I'm also getting more than enraged over the endless flogging of the Crusades as a unique example of Christian sadism and cruelty. Grrr!

Islam started in a little corner of the Arabian peninsula. Arabic was the language of a handful of nomadic tribes.

Now Islam stretches from Morocco to Indonesia, and Arabic is spoken from Mauritania to Syria. And how, pray tell, did that come about? Hmmm?

I'll tell you.

Invasions.
Massacres.
Forced conversions.
Genocide.
Cultural extirpations.
Wars. Sieges. Battles.
Bloodshed.
Intimidation.
Fear.

Yes, in a few cases, a society or culture would capitulate to Islam and the Arabs without a fight, and converted "willingly" to Islam, without being forced to at sword-point. And the reason for that, was they were terrfied of what would happen if they tried to resist.

This "Islamic Crusade" lasted hundreds of years and spanned a major portion of the globe. Forget about blood-soaked streets -- we're talking blood-soaked continents. The Crusades were just a tiny little battle in a centuries-long jihad to subdue the entire world.

In his role as a Middle East envoy he would have won the hearts and minds of the Muslim world if he had come to Islam

I think Mr. Blair should continue leaving the job of winning the hearts and minds of the muslim world to US and UK forces protecting the fledgling democracy in Iraq- because Freedom is what will truly win hearts and minds- not more of the same from islam.

Religion of Scum

re: #30 zombie

I'm also getting more than enraged over the endless flogging of the Crusades as a unique example of Christian sadism and cruelty. Grrr!

Islam started in a little corner of the Arabian peninsula. Arabic was the language of a handful of nomadic tribes.

Now Islam stretches from Morocco to Indonesia, and Arabic is spoken from Mauritania to Syria. And how, pray tell, did that come about? Hmmm?

I'll tell you.

Invasions.
Massacres.
Forced conversions.
Genocide.
Cultural extirpations.
Wars. Sieges. Battles.
Bloodshed.
Intimidation.
Fear.

Yes, in a few cases, a society or culture would capitulate to Islam and the Arabs without a fight, and converted "willingly" to Islam, without being forced to at sword-point. And the reason for that, was they were terrfied of what would happen if they tried to resist.

This "Islamic Crusade" lasted hundreds of years and spanned a major portion of the globe. Forget about blood-soaked streets -- we're talking blood-soaked continents. The Crusades were just a tiny little battle in a centuries-long jihad to subdue the entire world.

A truly excellent post. Thank you.

And the islamic invasion continues until today...worldwide, with the same violence...

Santa visits Ajmal's house.

re: #30 zombie

I'm also getting more than enraged over the endless flogging of the Crusades as a unique example of Christian sadism and cruelty. Grrr!

.

Not to mention Timothy McVeigh held up as an example of white American terrorism as opposed to the daily Islamic variety.

Those who fashion themselves as Muslim spokesmen are delusional beyond comprehension. Progressive eh Ajmal? We have noticed that your countries are so progressive (not) that millions of you are illegaly swarming to the regressive domains of Christendom. Why Ajmal aren't the "regressive" inhabitants of the the infidel world have rushing to the scat heaps your kind and the koran have produced?
No other culture group on earth is as myopic and as mad as the muslim.
Ajmal should learn the ols maxim those who the gods would destroy they first make mad.
Beyond a doubt there will be no peace in the world until the denizens of the ummah are so completely drubbed down, defeated, and driven back to their caves that they dare not crawl out for at least another 300 years as at Granada in 1492 and Vienna in 1683.

Read the koran. If you can stomach it, that is. Next to mein kampf it is the most vile trash on the planet, imho.

Where is our new troll?

re: #17 zombie

Don't take this muslim's word for it- read it for yourself, please:

A Battle for Global Values

/it's not as bad as it sounds

The imam is right - if you understand the objectives of Islam. Remember that Islam was invented after Christianity, in part to exploit the pacifist nature of Christians. The idea is that Christians and Jews are to be their slaves, and everyone else is meant to be disposable victims, to be robbed and looted as a sacrament of the faith.

If your intent is to spread your faith and profit thereby, Christianity is woefully regressive. It still struggles with the idea of "just war", even in self defense, to say nothing of having no mechanism whatsoever for handling aggressive genocide. Islam has a well defined and religiously codified method for dealing with alternate faiths, which even includes how the goods and livestock (including women) are to be distributed. It correspondingly has a robust means of generating new warriors, mainly by enslaving and abusing women into compliance, then using them as baby manufacturing machines.

By comparison to Christianity (or any other faith, for that matter), Islam is optimized for success. The only culture that has ever contested that standing is that of the Mongols and Iberians, both independantly coming to the conclusion that the best way to negotiatie an equitable relationship with Muslim neighbors is to meet their zeal for killing with an equivalent enthusiasm.

Merry Christmas fellow scaley ones!

I've wrapped a red shirt about my green hide today , so as to be properly festive!

And on topic here: People should convert, if they feel the compulsion to do so and after heavy contemplation and self-education, to a religion that best fits their understanding of how to live at peace and goodwill among their fellow inhabitants of this magnificent planet. I don't see anywhere in the multitude of writings that make up the core belief structure of Islam an actual effort to living peacefully and generously among one's neighbors, no matter their creed or intentions... and what do you know, history shows ample evidence of this, as well. I'm think I'm preaching to the choir on this topic.

So what religion can bring inner happiness that shines through to all you know, to share in the love that God has for all his creations? For me, that would be Christianity. I don't think many people here would try, but they would be hard pressed to convince me that any other religion teaches love and peace among one's neighbors as well as Christ did.

And on this day that we celebrate his birth, I wish you all blessings of happiness and prosperity!

Merry Christmas!

One thing I've always wanted to ask radical Islamofascists who write stuff like this one thing: what is it like to live day to day filled with so much hate? It seems that Islam teaches nothing about love at all, and having spent some time in a Muslim culture for a while this past year, I can tell you that the Muslim women certainly seem to feel that way. They are staggered when they see a husband actually loving his wife and doing simple things like helping with the kids and treating his wife with respect.

From someone outside looking in on organized religion:

It seems to me that the major difference between Islam and every other major organized religion is FREE WILL. In Christianity you are free to make choices in your life. You will sit for judgment by GOD, not Man. Man may disapprove but love the sinner, not the sin. Islam makes choices for you. Man is judge, jury and executioner in Islam.

Like I said, I do not study religions in detail, but that is the perception of the basic tenets. Am I right?

Blair has said the Quran strikes him as a reforming book “trying to return Judaism and Christianity to their origins, much as reformers attempted to do with the Christian church centuries later”. If he so admires the Quran for its reformist outlook, why turn to Christianity?

Very, very good question.

"Trying to return Judaism & Christianity to thier origins" doesn't neccessarily mean "admiration of the Quran".

There's a lot of barbarism in the dim & distant histories of Judaism & Christianity. Perhaps Blair was implying that Islam evokes the good old days of the inquisition or the halcyonic era when Judaic law used stoning for blasphemy.

I doubt it.

Blair was just paying political lip service to your horrible religion to try and calm down the problem of domestic terrorism.

merry Christmas guys...

Ajmal Masroor, merry Christmas to you too... though i know, Wishing Merry Christmas is Haram to Muslims...

What ever, regressive and progressive are just words , but reality lies beyond...

We here in democratic structure follow the Loving G-d, and saintness is described by the degree of commitment the prophet/incarnation had made towards Humanity ... the name of religion, doctrine and book hardly matters for us now... till they follow humanity...

Islam, on other hand, means a fear and surrender the Hate G-d... and Islamic saints/prophets are judged with the number of Rapes, killing and child-abuse they had made...

Yet we all known the basic rule, that love wins over hate... and we even know, Islam is the only Ideology, which fear its condemnation...

What ever, its beyond what your Hate filled mind, that is controlled by devils book, will understand...

Yet I will love to make you aware of the fact that Islamic crimes had forced Peaceful India Buddhist to move to older Hindu tradition back in 7th century... it might be, that same Islamic crimes are forcing Peaceful British Christians to move back to the, what you described as " offensive crussader catholic culture"!

What ever, till now islam has seen the toleration of peaceful democratic peoples... yet no one knows, how long this toleration will work...

Greetings from Yours HinduZionist crussader's... ;)

Look, ajmal- in the West, a person's religion is their own choice- it is a private matter between them and their Creator. In fact- they can even choose to believe there is no Creator. And you know what else? In the West- there's not a damn thing you can do about it. Sure- your islamic brethren are doing their damnedest to change that, but in the mean time I want you to get out a piece of paper and write this down 100 times:

Tony Blair's religion is none of my business.

After you're done, you can shut your dawa'h spewing mouth up.

re: #43 Debbie B

You nailed it.

re: #44 uptight

Please- I linked the original article in #39- please read it if you haven't. He's not as nice to islam as this dawa'h artist would have you believe.

Having read it and studied it a bit, the present accepted Koran is a hodge podge of redacted Torah and Gnostic Christianity (including the NT Apocrypha Infancy, etc. stuff) combined with a pile of self justification of acts of pillage by a petty warlord. The "inclusiveness" of Islam is a joke. The Arabs regard other Muslims the same way the nednecks regarded the freed negro in the 1870s. The treatment of the Shia' minority by the Saudis during the takeover of the Mosque in Mecca in '78 should be sufficient to remind everyone that these morons declare each other apostates to be killed at the drop of a hat.

The only thing that can be said for the Koran is that is such a pile that virtually any action can be justified by a reading of it in some manner. Which abrogates what is always a famous game by these creeps. The Crusades were small change when compared with barbarous actions of those who practiced Islam during the same period and beyond. See "The Legacy of Jihad: Islamic Holy War and the Fate of Non-Muslims" [Link: www.amazon.com...]

This guy should have a fatwa issued against him for insulting Christianity. Fortunately (or unfortunately), we do not "reform" folks like that any more.

Taken strictly, the Koran and Islam is sedition. Shame we do not act on it.

Maybe because old Tony was full of shit when he said those things about the Koran. Ya know, trying to make nice with the people who want to destroy western civ.

And Ill put a couple of crusades against 1400 years of muslim holy war. Methinks that their side will have the higher body count. Even worse, there isnt anything in the new testiment that supported the crusades. There is a butt load of stuff supporting jihad in their book.

re: #30 zombie

The Crusades were in fact more or less begun by Muslims who were advancing into territories of the Byzantine Empire after the year 1071 when Sejuk Turk Muslims over ran the territories causing much bloodshed and effectively closing off the route to the holy lands and Jerusalem ...they wantonly murdered pilgrims and clergy who were making pilgramages to holy sites in Jerusalem , thus preventing further pilgrimage from the Christians

Pope Urban II initiated a counter offensive to the incursion and occupation of much of the Byzantine Empire by calling a Council in Clermont consisting of heads of the Roman Catholic church ..

Well the rest is history , many people died ...and in fact this whole saga of wars Crusades beginning from the first 1st to the 9th were all instigated by invading Muslims ...

It's to be found in every history book ...I find the Stories about the Papal knights(Illuminati) to be most interesting , and have in fact visited just a few of the castles and fortresses in areas of Greece and southern Europe they had built during these wars to support the defense of the Holy Lands from the land grabbing Muslims ..

So the next time a Moonbat wants to flog the issue by blaming Christians for the Crusades , you can just tell the true tale of how the Crusades were a defense reponse to Muslims who stole lands , and drew first blood by murdering pilgrims .

re: #51 Mr. E. Train

Oh fercryinoutloud! Read it for yourself! It's at #39.

re: #43 Debbie B

From someone outside looking in on organized religion:

It seems to me that the major difference between Islam and every other major organized religion is FREE WILL. In Christianity you are free to make choices in your life. You will sit for judgment by GOD, not Man. Man may disapprove but love the sinner, not the sin. Islam makes choices for you. Man is judge, jury and executioner in Islam.

Like I said, I do not study religions in detail, but that is the perception of the basic tenets. Am I right?

Basically, no, but it was a nice try.

In a nutshell... when looking at religions, there is what is called the "doxa" as in orthodox, and the "praxis", as in orthopraxy. The first is about doctrine, the second is about practices.

Islam differs from Christianity in both doctrine and practices. Likewise with Judaism, though there may be some similarities in the practices (e.g. eating habits) due to Islam originating from and borrowing from Jewish teachings.

"free will" is not really embraced by the traditional teachings of many religions, though the common man seems to want to be attracted to the concept. I am not a major student of world religions, but there is reason to believe that "sovereignty" and/or "fate" (the two are a bit different) plays a role in formal teachings of many religions, whether one talks about a single God or many gods.

On the case at point in this blog... Islam... has been noted in recent times for the violent nature of certain sects, and the (from our viewpoint) middle-ages mores. I know of no Christian sect today that has as its practices the use of violence or physical coercion for the sake of conversions, or for that matter apostasies. There may be some small groups of closed off Christian communities that have what we would consider antiquated notions, and there are always the cults (controlled groups) where most anything can happen (e.g., Jim Jones), but the actions of these groups are pretty much repudiated by most of Christendom.

The gall of muslims is unbelievable. The koran is NOT "God's latest testament". It's the text of a bloody war cult that's been fighting Christianity, Judaism and all other cultures for centuries now.

Why would Blair turn to the older versions of God’s testament when there is the Quran? His conversion sounds rather regressive to me.

...Until you consider the fact that Blair has chosen a religion and book devised during the peak of classical civilization, instead of a book created during the depths of the worst dark age humanity has seen since the eleventh century BC--and which reflects that age's barbarism well. Then it becomes obvious, Mr. Masroor, why he never even considered your death-cult manual.

re: #30 zombie

I'm also getting more than enraged over the endless flogging of the Crusades as a unique example of Christian sadism and cruelty. Grrr!

Islam started in a little corner of the Arabian peninsula. Arabic was the language of a handful of nomadic tribes.

Now Islam stretches from Morocco to Indonesia, and Arabic is spoken from Mauritania to Syria. And how, pray tell, did that come about? Hmmm?

I'll tell you.

Invasions.
Massacres.
Forced conversions.
Genocide.
Cultural extirpations.
Wars. Sieges. Battles.
Bloodshed.
Intimidation.
Fear.

Yes, in a few cases, a society or culture would capitulate to Islam and the Arabs without a fight, and converted "willingly" to Islam, without being forced to at sword-point. And the reason for that, was they were terrfied of what would happen if they tried to resist.

This "Islamic Crusade" lasted hundreds of years and spanned a major portion of the globe. Forget about blood-soaked streets -- we're talking blood-soaked continents. The Crusades were just a tiny little battle in a centuries-long jihad to subdue the entire world.

Thank you Zombie!

I keep hearing crap like this spewing from the Muslims. Well here's my Christmas gift to them:
ISLAM DELENDA EST.

So-the Grauniad is now a soapbox for open proselytising now...as long as it's muslim proselytising. What a bunch of Cowardly, Unprincipled Neomarxist TwitS.

re: #30 zombie

You forgot one important aspect of their jihad: RAPE.

Put down that stupid koran and have some of this Mr Masroor-South Park - Merry Fucking Christmas

These people just love to whine about the Crusades.
There were excesses, but the trigger was Western Christianity pushing back against militant Islam.Holds true today

re: #62 Jimmah

Maybe Jesus and Santa should team up on South Park and kick the shit out of Mo!

Good comments- all of them. Thank GOD that the world is waking up!

Cherie Blair would look great in a niqab

/ maybe Blair should become a muslim

re: #25 VegasRick

re: #19 looking closely

If Catholicism is "regressive" then what "progress" has Islam made, in say, the last 400 years?

Velcro burqa's. Oh and a Merry and Blessed Christmas to all.

Burkinis.

Its always fascinating when evil thinks its good. Like that dope Will Smith said the other day: Hitler probably thought he was doing good. This Imam can join the Austrian painter in the upside down universe evil inhabits... the one where Islam is a real religion, Mohammed is worthy of respect, and Islamic culture is not an oxymoron... 'cause he sure ain't living in this one!

First, a very Merry Christmas to everyone.

Second, it's unfortunate that Ajmal Masroor hasn't chosen to convert to Christianity from his regressive, throwback, 7th-century-moon-rock worshipping-death-cult.

Christianity is a rational faith based upon reason and conscience. Islam is a faith based on the ravings of a demon-possessed Bedouin caravan raider.

Silly Muslim, Tony Blair is a member of the *true* faith.

re: #20 Canadian Guy

Blair has claimed on many occasions that he has read the Quran and has said he found its teachings “progressive”.

He was using taqiyya when he said that.

Wish that it were so, but Blair did say it.

A muslim using the word "reform" in any context is simply laughable, and stated on the soil of the English reformation even moreso.

re: #50 Shr_Nfr

Islam in general (though obviously not sects like the NOI) is comparatively inclusive when it comes to race or class distinctions. That's one of its attractions in the area of social justice, one of the ties that bind across geography.

If we Christians, I'm born to christian parents and I was "Konfirmiert" so I'm going to claim membership in that club, are regressing does that mean we can go medieval on some heathen ass ?

re: #68 stevieray

... Like that dope Will Smith said the other day: Hitler probably thought he was doing good. ...

Yes, that was actually an insightful comment. I found it really annoying that people including the Jewish Defense League got all excited about it.

But how do you mean "dope". As opposed to "wack". Or as in dopey? ;-)

If slaughtering innocent people in the name of your God is "progressive",if beating gang rape victims is "progressive",if blowing up innocent people with a bomb strapped to your chest is "progressive",if calling for the death of millions of people because they are Jews is "progressive",if calling for the deaths if millions of people who support the Jews is "progressive",if calling for the deaths of cartoonists who offend you with a cartoon is "progressive',if calling for the death of anyone who isn't a Muslim is "progressive", THEN I CHOOSE TO REMAIN "REGRESSIVE" and not succumb to being a bloodthirsty terrorist hiding behind a religion,living in hate,who oppresses women and children,and in general hates anyone who does not jump in the jihad bandwagon against the "infidels'.

Ajmal Masroor...Islam needs to clean out from under it's own bloodstained doorsteps before talking crap about the religion of others.

re: #40 DrCruel

The imam is right - if you understand the objectives of Islam. Remember that Islam was invented after Christianity, in part to exploit the pacifist nature of Christians. The idea is that Christians and Jews are to be their slaves, and everyone else is meant to be disposable victims, to be robbed and looted as a sacrament of the faith.

If your intent is to spread your faith and profit thereby, Christianity is woefully regressive. It still struggles with the idea of "just war", even in self defense, to say nothing of having no mechanism whatsoever for handling aggressive genocide. Islam has a well defined and religiously codified method for dealing with alternate faiths, which even includes how the goods and livestock (including women) are to be distributed. It correspondingly has a robust means of generating new warriors, mainly by enslaving and abusing women into compliance, then using them as baby manufacturing machines.

By comparison to Christianity (or any other faith, for that matter), Islam is optimized for success. The only culture that has ever contested that standing is that of the Mongols and Iberians, both independantly coming to the conclusion that the best way to negotiatie an equitable relationship with Muslim neighbors is to meet their zeal for killing with an equivalent enthusiasm.

Reminds me of sharks,which have become the perfect killing/ consuming machine without haveing further evolved over the last 100 million years.

#9. One doesnt have to go back hundreds of years to reveal the millions slaughtered by "progressive and peaceful Islam". 11 million muslims slaughtered over the last 57 years. The Jews were only responsible for aprox 50,000 mostly combatants. The rest were pretty much done in by their peaceful bretheren.

re: #19 looking closely

If Catholicism is "regressive" then what "progress" has Islam made, in say, the last 400 years?

None in the last 800 or 1,000 years, I'll say - apart from updating its methods of murder and terror.

re: #43 Debbie B

From someone outside looking in on organized religion:

It seems to me that the major difference between Islam and every other major organized religion is FREE WILL. In Christianity you are free to make choices in your life. You will sit for judgment by GOD, not Man. Man may disapprove but love the sinner, not the sin. Islam makes choices for you. Man is judge, jury and executioner in Islam.

Like I said, I do not study religions in detail, but that is the perception of the basic tenets. Am I right?

Debbie, I was surprised to find out that Islam places heavy emphasis on free will (in contrast to those of us Christians who are Calvinists). If you are familiar with the split within Christianity between Arminians (emphasis on free will) on left and Calvinists (emphasis on God's sovereignty), I'd say Islam is in the center. They do not teach the 4th Calivinist point of TULIP, "irresistable grace," but that it's entirely a free choice to submit to Islam. Yeah, of course, Islam is known for its emphasis on submission, but Christianity, too, is about willing submission to God's lordship. Where there is no freedom is in getting out of Islam and in the case of those who are not converts, but "born into Islam," then really did they have a choice?

re: #44 uptight

"Trying to return Judaism & Christianity to thier origins" doesn't neccessarily mean "admiration of the Quran".

It does if you're Muslim. Remember that in Islamic theology Islam was the original, first religion and Christianity & Judaism are corruptions of it. Returning them to their origins is thus by definition reversion to Islam.

re: #72 Orde

re: #50 Shr_Nfr

Islam in general (though obviously not sects like the NOI) is comparatively inclusive when it comes to race or class distinctions. That's one of its attractions in the area of social justice, one of the ties that bind across geography.

Orde -

Just remember that the word for slave and "dark skinned" in arabic is the same - "ABED." I will assume that the level of tolerance is better after about 1400 years, and still remember how the relationship started.

-S-

re: #72 Orde

re: #50 Shr_Nfr

Islam in general (though obviously not sects like the NOI) is comparatively inclusive when it comes to race or class distinctions. That's one of its attractions in the area of social justice, one of the ties that bind across geography.

If that were so, why do Muslim reverts take Arabic names, start wearing Arabic dress, take Arabic customs? It's obvious that everything Arab occupies a privileged place in Islam, and actual Arabs will happily let you know how inferior every other Muslim is, especially blacks. It is inclusive only to the blind, a condition Islam is expert at creating.

It's so laughable how Muslims have such a superiorly complex. Just look how impoverished most Muslim peoples and nations are. The real joke is on them because Muhammad was a false phony fraudulent prophet. Everyone knows this except for the benighted Muslims backing the wrong horse

Christ and Buddha and Moses were all valid spiritual leaders. But not Muhammad the warlord

If he so admires the Quran for its reformist outlook, why turn to Christianity

'cos he bloody lied

Pot calling kettle black. Now I don't think much of Roman Catholicism but it is still better than Islam in some respects.

I say that Islam should have 1 day a year when any of their members could convert to any other religion.

How many Muslim's would escape Islam if they could (since free agency is not part of their dogma?)

Islam is Arab irredentism. It gave the Arabs religious cover for their bloody conquests. All done in the name of Allah to justify the slaughter, rape and plunder

re: #79 Orde

re: #43 Debbie B

From someone outside looking in on organized religion:

It seems to me that the major difference between Islam and every other major organized religion is FREE WILL. In Christianity you are free to make choices in your life. You will sit for judgment by GOD, not Man. Man may disapprove but love the sinner, not the sin. Islam makes choices for you. Man is judge, jury and executioner in Islam.

Like I said, I do not study religions in detail, but that is the perception of the basic tenets. Am I right?

Debbie, I was surprised to find out that Islam places heavy emphasis on free will (in contrast to those of us Christians who are Calvinists). If you are familiar with the split within Christianity between Arminians (emphasis on free will) on left and Calvinists (emphasis on God's sovereignty), I'd say Islam is in the center. They do not teach the 4th Calivinist point of TULIP, "irresistable grace," but that it's entirely a free choice to submit to Islam. Yeah, of course, Islam is known for its emphasis on submission, but Christianity, too, is about willing submission to God's lordship. Where there is no freedom is in getting out of Islam and in the case of those who are not converts, but "born into Islam," then really did they have a choice?

You can't be considered to have freedom of choice if many of your personal choices, like religious preference, would be met by execution. Punishment is the lowest level of motivation for considering a course of action. It's also why God does not immediately, and personally punish us for any and all infractions as that would not lead to character formation. We would simply obey out of fear, not love.

re: #91 dennisw

Islam is Arab irredentism. It gave the Arabs religious cover for their bloody conquests. All done in the name of Allah to justify the slaughter, rape and plunder

Not to mention the "gang-rapes of honor." What kind of pathological belief system would train it's followers to be aroused over the idea of a "righteous deserving violent rape?"

And talk about blame the victim. These victimized women and children - boys included - are then brutally tortured and killed for having been victims of Righteous Muslim Rapists.

This Muslim barbarism incomprehensible to the western mind.

re: #84 jenv

Excellent point, I've noticed a growing unease over the overlap of Arab culture and Islamic. There are attempts by Muslims to have it both ways--I see Syria's Assad or Hizbullah playing up the Arab nationalism side, which thus results in Islamochristians (Palestinian "Christians" influenced by Islam who support the Islamic cause, b/c they identify more with being Arab than with being Christian), but on the other hand, as LGF has posted in reference to recent Al-Qaeda #2 man's speech, there's a push to bring in non-Arab Muslims from the OIC or even nonIslamic states, and Arabs are encouraging Arabs to be more receptive:

I call upon you to announce that you are no longer a national resistance movement, but an Islamic jihad movement which transcends national solidarity and believes in brotherhood rooted in Islam... I call upon you to extend your hand in friendship... to all the Muslim mujahideen... [and to declare] that the mujahideen everywhere are closer to you, and more loyal and faithful [in your eyes], than Mahmoud 'Abbas and Muhammad Dahlan..."[Link: memri.org...]

re: #42 wonder95

One thing I've always wanted to ask radical Islamofascists who write stuff like this one thing: what is it like to live day to day filled with so much hate?/blockquote>

Woner95, just ask any liberal you know...It's about the same!

One point that has escaped Mr. Masroor is the difference between the response of the Church of England and of Islam to Mr. Blair leaving the religion. The Church of England, in common with Judaism and virtually all denominations of Christianity, leave it up to the individual conscience as to whether to remain a member of their church. In Islam, as is well known, a Muslim who renounces Islam is an apostate and is in danger of death, the penalty for apostasy. The difference could hardly be more marked. It reflects the difference between the individual ultimately deciding and the Ummah (Muslim society) choosing, in this as in so much of life in the two cultures.

re: #85 Rodan

re: #72 Orde

Islam is not tolreant.
It's an Arabic racist ideology that seeks to destroy indigenous cultures and impose an Arab identity.

Oh, please, Islam is theologically and politically intolerant yes, but when it comes to racial tolerance, it's got the Church beat by far. Hating Islam, doesn't require failure to appreciate any positive aspects of it. (btw, I've been reading your posts, like them, thanks)

He can aver it but he can't prove islam is ''progressive.''
A tree is known by all of its fruits.
Islam's fruits include beating females, killing and mutilating them, forcing marriage and pregnancies on them. Islam's fruits include slavery, dhimmitude and sectarianism to the point of deathly bombings.
Islam's fruits include war and lies against non-muslims.
Christianity has turned away from treating women poorly, from slavery, even from war and inequality toward non-believers...letting God decide after death instead of bring death.
Looks like Christianity has proven to be the progressive religion, not islam.

re: #43 Debbie B

From someone outside looking in on organized religion:

It seems to me that the major difference between Islam and every other major organized religion is FREE WILL. In Christianity you are free to make choices in your life. You will sit for judgment by GOD, not Man. Man may disapprove but love the sinner, not the sin. Islam makes choices for you. Man is judge, jury and executioner in Islam.

Like I said, I do not study religions in detail, but that is the perception of the basic tenets. Am I right?

Nicely said Debbie. Couldn't have said it better!

re: #23 BignJames

He might have found redemption for his crimes against Iraq and its innocent people.

To the best of my knowledge, the koran says nothing about redemption...or salvation.

Islamic Concept of Redemption:

Allah hath purchased of the Believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the Garden (of Paradise): they fight in His Cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in Truth, through the Torah, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his Covenant than Allah? Then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme. (Quran 9:111)

Muslims such as the late Sayyid Abul A'la Maududi have described this contract of redemption as a "bargain"--voluntarily selling his autonomy to get in return a promise of Paradise.

re: #84 jenv

re: #72 Orde

re: #50 Shr_Nfr

Islam in general (though obviously not sects like the NOI) is comparatively inclusive when it comes to race or class distinctions. That's one of its attractions in the area of social justice, one of the ties that bind across geography.

If that were so, why do Muslim reverts take Arabic names, start wearing Arabic dress, take Arabic customs? It's obvious that everything Arab occupies a privileged place in Islam, and actual Arabs will happily let you know how inferior every other Muslim is, especially blacks. It is inclusive only to the blind, a condition Islam is expert at creating.

That's the situation all right.
Encountered a West African at the airport recently and complimented him on his crisp new bou-bou caftan-type ensemble - brand new clothes for the end of the holiday. European-educated, and oozing hard Left, he repaid the sociable compliment by meandering into the evidently reprehensible situation these days that EAST Africans dress in the Western manner, not like West Africans, indicating that the East Africans were still hewing to their old colonial masters.
This from a guy who was obviously blind to the fact that HE was wearing the traditional dress of HIS old colonial Arab masters, the ones who established the despicable slave networks in Africa that devastated African society from West to East, that those pesky Brits roused themselves enough to halt.
Traditional African Sub-Saharan dress codes across Africa were much less comprehensive to put it mildly, than either Arab or British colonial fashions.
Muslim African cultures perpetuate the foreign influence of the Arab cultural customs that came with the conquering of the local indigenous cultures.

So, if you steal someone else's religion (Old and New Testament, cherry-picked and distorted) and their deity (montheistic Yaweh, given the pre-Islamic name for one of their poytheistic gods, "Allah"), that's "progressive"?

In a normal mind, that's called plagiarism.

Or world-historical thievery.

Islam is the world's worst regressive force, derailing Jesus's profound eschatoloigical attempt to re-envision the monarchical monotheistic God into a loving and personal Being.

Mohammad turned back, with Allah, toward the irrational Old Testament despotic Warlord of The Book of Job.

And God help us all until this deathcult is sent back to Mecca to repent its sins.

His conversion sounds rather regressive to me.

Repeat a lie often enough and people will believe it. Only a matter of time now before it becomes chic for the msm and Hollywood to refer to Christianity as regressive.

The arrogance of these people is astounding, but this is what you get when you suck up to them with your P.C. pious inanities such as Islam being a religion of peace.

re: #84 jenv

Actually, there's an interesting reason for that.

One aspect of Judaism, is that of Jews being the "chosen people", a very misunderstood idea. The idea is that Jews are the model, light of the nations, but NOT that Jews are superior or supposed to rule the other nations. It's not a license for pride, it's an obligation of responsibility.

As such, the prophet of the Tanach (Old Testament) are full of the most relentless, difficult criticism of the Jews. Why are you not holding G-d's commandments, what's the matter with you, why are you not better than this. The best place in the Tanach to find NICE things said about the Jews are the anti-Semited! (Try Haman in the book of Esther, for instance)

The Koran, on the other hand, is full of pride. There's a verse which stuck with me when I read it, which talks about the Arabs, and it goes like this... hmm, lemme look it up.

Ahhh, here it is.

"You are the best nation ever to be brought forth for people. You order honor and forbid dishonor, and you believe in Allah. Had the People of the Book believed, it would have surely been better for them. Some of them are believers, but most of them are evildoers." (3:110)

The arrogance of the culture having their holy book call them the best nation ever brought forth, whereas most of the others are evil-doers, must be pretty heavy. I mean, their holy book tells them they're the best. Hurrah.

The other interesting contrast between Judaism and Islam is the nature of the religion itself. The Jewish nation (Israel) is a name Jacob earned for himself when wrestling an angel. Israel means "He who struggles with G-d." So the G-d of Israel is the G-d of he who struggles with G-d. Do you struggle in Islam? Nope! Islam means submission, and the Muslim submits to G-d. Right there, you see how Judaism and Islam are diametrically opposed.

Now if Tony Blair became Jewish, that would've been really interesting.

don't give Blair any ideas...

re: #97 Orde
No.
Islam perpetuates slavery as an acceptable legal and social status, reserved for lessor members, ie: Africans (Muslim or otherwise), infidels.
The Church by it's teachings to moral issues moved Christians to abolish the international slave trade and to set into the greater society a conscience that slavery was inconsistent with "Love your neighbor as yourself," often rephrased as "Do under to others as you would have done unto you." Meaning, if you would hate being enslaved, don't do it to anyone else.

There is no concept of "race" in the Bible. That is a construct of evolution.

Islam is NOT tolerant of "race," or as many preople prefer, ethnicities. It promotes inequality. The religion favors Arab Muslims over all other Muslims.

re: #101 ploome hineni

re: #97 Orde

what religions did you study, before renewing your religious affiliation?

I remember you wrote something about that some time ago

As a hispanic-American, I came out of a heavy traditionally Catholic background, as well as a family full of scientists (for those who consider that something of a religion), then the one kid in high school I didn't like gave me a gospel tract (and at home I did pray one of those if this is true..." prayers), but then went off to college thinking I was a Christian because of that, when really I didn't "get it," didn't take any religion courses, then during Third World travels and living abroad had some dramatic one-on-one religious experiences of miraculous protection, but still hadn't any formal study and still had never been to church, but for the odd visit, then well into adulthood studied existentialism and found good questions but bad answers, then finally sick of myself at some point vowed to God that I'd get a Bible and actually read it til it made sense (which took about 3 minutes, since I prayed for where to start, did the fingerpointing blindly into a page thing, and it was the lightbulb I needed), then got plugged into a nondenominational evangelical Bible-teaching church. Outside of fellowship and personal study, I've had no formal religious training. (Oh, maybe I mentioned I studied in Israel once, this is true, I did take some courses at Hebrew Univ, but only one was on religion.) Of course, I've invited to the local mosques quite a few times, but have not gone yet.

re: #109 wanumba

"There is no concept of "race" in the Bible. That is a construct of evolution."

My bad, when I referred to racism within the Church, I meant within Christendom (as in Sunday mornings being "the most segregated time on the calendar" as some say), not within biblical Christianity.

re: #100 ploome hineni

India (as in caste influenced)! thus the syncretistic side of Islam

I feel happy for Blair. Why? He went through a decade that most people wouldn't survive, mentally, phsycially or spiritually. Though his policies were Liberal Left domestically, he stood firm with the War on Terror and was as eloquent as any speaker as to what the threat was and is, and the need to stand up and defend what's good and right.

What did he get for it? The undying praise and love of freedom-lovers everywhere? Well, probably yes, like those in Afghanistan and Iraq and the Eastern Europeans who understood from hard experience about the evils of totalitarianism, but who'd know it from the way the media evicerated him? Did his friends stand with him? What crap did his wife and kids get for being associated with him? Did his party stay with him, help him by going out and educating the public so he wouldn't have to carry the burden himself? No, they cut his legs out from under him.

And what to do? The out of touch Anglican Church, with Liberal Left pastors who had kicked him instead of supporting him? He who understood the danger to Christianity and all of Western Civilization better than they did.? Bonnie Prince Charles wandering without a compass, the heir to the throne AND the future head of the Church of England? Bah!

Good for him, may he find reassurance and peace for his soul in Christ through this worldy outpost.

re: #114 ploome hineni
I'll check them out, thanks
re: #115 ploome hineni

Orde

do you mean that 'Hispanics' going to spanish language churches are racist, because they shun the majority 'white' churches?
and blacks also?

No. Just that racism (and antisemitism) is preached from some pulpits, as well as from notes in certain study Bibles, and that I do not buy that the comfort or cultural factor alone accounts for the extreme segregation statistics of Sunday mornings.

re: #23 BignJames

He might have found redemption for his crimes against Iraq and its innocent people.

To the best of my knowledge, the koran says nothing about redemption...or salvation.

The paradigm in Christianity is that God is a loving Father Who has offered Himself as Son, His Reason (Logos), for the redemption of man which He created in His image. The paradigm in Islam is that Allah is a despotic master with an unbridled will not subject to Reason, and we humans are his slaves.

There is no way, from the point of view of the progress of freedom, that the latter can be considered an improvement over the former.

re: #111 Orde

re: #109 wanumba

"There is no concept of "race" in the Bible. That is a construct of evolution."

My bad, when I referred to racism within the Church, I meant within Christendom (as in Sunday mornings being "the most segregated time on the calendar" as some say), not within biblical Christianity.

Welcome to the state of fallen man! It is no fault of the word of God, which doesn't support petty human rivalries in any manner. It's a sorry entertainment to see a number of missionary churches grumping about in West Africa, refusing to deal with each other because of shallow denominational issues. Yet, a vibrant church is an incredibly postive influence on any society. It's members go out, ignore the status quo and do incredibly beautiful things.
Think of this: All churches are made of of a small number of committed Christians, a larger number of nominal Christians and the rest are happy pagans.
The Universal (called Catholic before it became the denomination) Church of Christ is actually then, those committed Christians, no matter what the denomination, for they are the ones who live the Word. You know them when you meet them. They're just plain wonderful. There aren't many, though, but they accomplish great things and exude the most peaceful kindness to everyone they meet. They also connect with like believers, no matter the church and get things done.

As far as racism in Christendom, as in a sinful society heavily influenced by Judeo-CHristian assumptions of how a just society must conduct itself, it's not of the level of other cultures, being a product of man's selfish desire to be one up on the next man. Unlike other religions, Christianity develops the conscience AGAINST such human sinfulness. Proof, the abolition of the slave trade. People fought and died to liberate other people, people they'd never met. People dedicated their lives to urge their societies to have pity and mercy. It doesn't matter if it was done imperfectly, it was accomplished.
Compare with Islam, compare with the instuitutionalised misery of Hinduism's castes - set in concrete by religion AND laws. What about the Japan-centered Shintoism?
People are rather bored with a surface Christianity in the West that they do not see how incredibly radical and liberating it really is. It takes a stint in the pagan world to discover all those things we take for universal truths - and rely on - are NOT universally practiced - and people suffer terribly because of that.

The racism in the USA, which many people now renounce for fairness, is bush league compared to what's going on in other countries, but no one talks about that.

His conversion to Catholicism would no doubt remind the Muslim world, especially the Arab world of the history of the Crusades.

Yes, that would be when the Muslim hordes over-ran the Holy Land all the way to the Gates of Vienna. Those damn Christians defended their homes, lives,and religion. In doing so they spilled the blood of many of the Muslims who were trying to kill them and take their women into slavery.
Then the Crusaders joined in the defense of the Christians' home-lands, causing Muslims to become the Barbaric, murdering savages they are to this day.

I blame the Pope! (..and George Bush!)

Au contraire, mon muslim freres.

It is islam that is re-pressive, de-pressive, re-gressive and a host of other -essives, none of which are positive.

Merry Christmas ya'll.

re: #40 DrCruel

This response is way late, but . . .

They are the Borg

re: #97 Orde

re: #85 Rodan

re: #72 Orde

Islam is not tolreant.
It's an Arabic racist ideology that seeks to destroy indigenous cultures and impose an Arab identity.

Oh, please, Islam is theologically and politically intolerant yes, but when it comes to racial tolerance, it's got the Church beat by far. Hating Islam, doesn't require failure to appreciate any positive aspects of it. (btw, I've been reading your posts, like them, thanks)

Absolutely untrue. In fact for years Muslims kidnapped white Christian women for the specific purpose of lightening the skin of heirs.

Mohammed was a pirate king and islam is a pirate cult. He murdered and robbed all his inlaws. The plunder spread from there like a blood stain across the entire world.

Oh, and they treat their own women like cockroaches.

Quran is progressive and as a revealed book of God, it is the latest testament. Why would Blair turn to the older versions of God’s testament when there is the Quran? His conversion sounds rather regressive to me.

And the Mormons would say the same about Islam. That's why it's called "faith," Ajmal. One comes to a conclusion about what is true, and what isn't.

why turn to Christianity and particularly Catholic Church, which has been plagued with centuries of baggage?

Oh, brother. Talk about a religion with baggage! Islam has nothing but baggage, past, present, and I'll wager, future. Case in point, a complete inversion/confusion/distortion of reality, coming up...:

In an article published by Foreign Affairs early this year, Blair spoke of the Quran as being inclusive. His new Church has been the most exclusive and in the name of its own version of Christianity has murdered and destroyed the lives and properties of many fellow Christians over the years. In his role as a Middle East envoy he would have won the hearts and minds of the Muslim world if he had come to Islam. He might have found redemption for his crimes against Iraq and its innocent people. His conversion to Catholicism would no doubt remind the Muslim world, especially the Arab world of the history of the Crusades. The blood of millions of people still stain the cobblestones of the Holy Land from the cold-blooded murders committed in the name of Christianity and was blessed by the then Papacy in Rome.

Islam is more reality-"challenged" than any other religion I know of. And that speaks volumes about its truthfulness.

moslems can not peacefully coexist w/ anyone. where ever they show up, they begin to scheme and push for absolute control. (bitching because tony blair became a catholic) this insidious obnoxious cult will spread around the world smothering everyone and everything, like a kudzu vine, if free people do not stop the charade. islam is a terror screed, not the religion of peace.

re: #120 rob.schmitt

I blame the Pope! (..and George Bush!)

You forgot the Jews. The Mossad must have been in some way responsible for the crusades. After inventing artificial earthquakes Israel must have invented a time machine and sent Mossad agents dressed as Muslims and Christians back in time to turn Muslims and Christians against each other. That must be it.

re: #131 Ahat

re: #120 rob.schmitt

I blame the Pope! (..and George Bush!)

You forgot the Jews. The Mossad must have been in some way responsible for the crusades. After inventing artificial earthquakes Israel must have invented a time machine and sent Mossad agents dressed as Muslims and Christians back in time to turn Muslims and Christians against each other. That must be it.

Oy gevalt! How could it have slipped the mind?

They want Islam to continue to experience explosive growth.

re: #81 jenv

How is that possible when Islam came 6 to 7 hundred years after Christianity and 3,000 years after Judaism? Check when Mohammed lived.

A Muslim saying Christianity is regressive? Bwhahah That is the funniest thing I've heard in a long time.
This from a follower of Muhammed...whatever brainwashed cult follower.

I think the speaker is mildly offended. That must be a first.

I wonder if Blair si giving up on being prime minister again. Someone said the law states that you have to be Anglican or something to be prime minister - don't know whether it is true.

Or is he switching his religion to match the majority of Britons and hoping that law if it exists will be changed?

Or is he switching to the religion of his wife so they can have a unified household?

These mohammedans always talk about "crimes committed in the name of" the papacy/Christianity. Seriously, a mohammedan on a plane to Logan Airport (of all places) told me that when I had my rosary out (I am a convert to Rome). What do psychologists call the type of bile that the mohammedan writer is spewing? Something about projection of flaws, if I recall.

why turn to Christianity and particularly Catholic Church, which has been plagued with centuries of baggage?

Omg, I'm glad that I wasn't sipping my soda at that point in the read, else it would have been coming out of my nose.

Come instead to Islam, which has no baggage.

Bahahahaaa!

re: #132 ContraJihadi

re: #131 Ahat

re: #120 rob.schmitt

I blame the Pope! (..and George Bush!)

You forgot the Jews. The Mossad must have been in some way responsible for the crusades. After inventing artificial earthquakes Israel must have invented a time machine and sent Mossad agents dressed as Muslims and Christians back in time to turn Muslims and Christians against each other. That must be it.

Oy gevalt! How could it have slipped the mind?

Just Like Mo' s supposed "night visit ' on his magic horsie to Jerusalem by which they justify their claim on on someone else's Holy Land.

It depresses me no end that Tony Blair who risked so much for the struggle in Iraq is in the end a dhimmi. Why is Western leadership so dhimmi, so open-borders? Is it a death wish?

In an article published by Foreign Affairs early this year, Blair spoke of the Quran as being inclusive. His new Church has been the most exclusive and in the name of its own version of Christianity has murdered and destroyed the lives and properties of many fellow Christians over the years. In his role as a Middle East envoy he would have won the hearts and minds of the Muslim world if he had come to Islam. He might have found redemption for his crimes against Iraq and its innocent people. His conversion to Catholicism would no doubt remind the Muslim world, especially the Arab world of the history of the Crusades. The blood of millions of people still stain the cobblestones of the Holy Land from the cold-blooded murders committed in the name of Christianity and was blessed by the then Papacy in Rome.

Yes, Islam is very inclusive. The only thing is, they threaten to kill you if you don't join. And threaten to kill you, if you try to leave.

That kind of inclusive, I can do without.

I don't give a hoot about Blair's conversion, or what he believes in for that matter, but it was depressing to read the comments.
Most of the posters--at least the early ones, those I read until I lost my patience--addressed the issue of whether Blair should or shouldn't have become a Muslim or a Roman Catholic. (Despite the paper's and the readers' leftist bias, I usually find the posters smart, hard to fool, ready to pick up inconsistencies, idiocy, blatant hypocrisy and lies.)

Very few of them discussed the obvious lies about Islam in the article: superstition, tolerance of other faiths, women, violence, you name it.

The article reminds me of the commie propaganda back in Eastern Europe, where life was miserable, often times hellish, but the propaganda kept saying we were living in the best world possible, and marching toward earthly paradise.
No wonder many people succombed to all kinds of neuroses, and psychiatric wards were full: keep telling a person night is day or bad is good, and you have yourself a certifiable loony.

That's what's awaiting the West with this kind of nonsense passing for "journalism."

I am too tired and sated from enjoying the birth of Christ and having fun to give this ridiculous nonsense any real comment. Suffice it to say, the guy is a moron, a complete bigot and has no real grasp of anything.
Oh, and happy Christmas, everybody.

The children of immigrants are more "regressive" than their immigrant parents. It seems that assimilation in the West means learning enough about how to exploit the system to be able to work to undermine it.

From Ajmal Mansour's website (this guy is clearly a self-aggrandizing idiot and a good argument against unrestricted immigration)...

My parents came to the UK in the early 1950s as economic migrants. When my father arrived he did not speak English and he had never been outside his own home town before. It was a shock for him to come to London, one of the most diverse cities in the world. He hoped to stay for a few years, earn enough money to return to Bangladesh and set up a business. It is 2007 and he is still here, the majority of his children and all his grandchildren were born in the UK. Britain and London has become their home.

[Link: www.ajmal4london.co.uk...]

CURRENT POSITIONS

Member of Muslim Council of Britain’s Central Working Committee

[Link: www.ajmal4london.co.uk...]

I am a young and influential British Bangladeshi Muslim, who is committed to the promotion of Liberal Democrat values across London.

...

I bring to London politics dynamism and fresh thinking. Liberal Democrats have never had any ethnic minority Assembly members. This must change - now. 30% of Londoners are from the black and minority ethnic communities. My youthful, passionate and personal approach enables me to reach those people who feel most marginalised from mainstream politics. As a result of my background, my experience and my passion and beliefs I can act as a positive role model for many Londoners who are beyond the reach of more conventional politicians.

[Link: www.ajmal4london.co.uk...]

Islamic fundamentalism is about as progressive as Luddites - "no" to everything that would improve the lives of others. Unless it's a more efficient method of blowing up larger number of victims, of course.

Ajmal Mansoor is a cliché... What exactly does Britain gain economically or socially from mass immigration from Muslim countries again? Oh, yes, its demise...

In my college days at Hammersmith, where I studied politics and Arabic, I founded an Islamic society. Before that there was nothing at the college for the Muslim community. Everything changed on 9/11. Extremists among Muslims were giving interviews so I went to the media and insisted they put on mainstream Muslims; I ended up doing the interviews myself.

I came to Britain from Bangladesh when I was one. At nine I went back because my father was afraid we would lose our identity as Muslims. But we returned when I was 13. I experienced racism in the East End of London. There were only two non-white families in the area. I remember bricks being thrown at our doors and our car windows being broken.

I could have become an angry and destructive person. I am lucky I have been able to change the negative experience to go forward fighting those prejudices.

My wife is Hungarian and she has accepted Islam. Our children will inherit a true fusion of culture - Hungarian, Bangladeshi, British, Muslim.

I lead Friday prayers in four mosques across London in rotation. I am called an unconventional imam because I don't get paid, and my sermons are in English.

My aim now is to go into politics. I am a prospective parliamentary candidate for the Lib Dems. Obviously I am disillusioned with Labour.

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

re: #81 jenv

re: #44 uptight

"Trying to return Judaism & Christianity to thier origins" doesn't neccessarily mean "admiration of the Quran".

It does if you're Muslim. Remember that in Islamic theology Islam was the original, first religion and Christianity & Judaism are corruptions of it. Returning them to their origins is thus by definition reversion to Islam.

"...Islam was the original..." Doesn't fit the timeline. Abraham, the Father of the Jews, lived approx 1800 BCE and Moses began the Torah in about 1500 BCE (give or take a few 100 years...). Mohammed was born 600(ish) CE. So Islam, as a formal religion, didn't even begin until 2100-2400 years after Judaism. Even if they believe it was Ishmael and not Issac that was the chosen son, the religion didn't begin until Mohammed or after, no?

As to Judaism, one cannot return an original "back" into an original... I mean, that makes no sense.

Fuck you, Masroor, and the camel you rode in, in.

Mansoor says that the "Quran is progressive and as a revealed book of God, it is the latest testament."

The Book of Mormon is far more recent than the Koran. L. Ron Hubbard's books even more so. They are later testaments than the Quran. Who is Mansoor to say which is more "real," unless he is not in fact a real multiculturalist? Mansoor is a monoculturalist of the garden Islamist variety who wants to use the mantra of multicultarilism to destroy it. And he is not even subtle about it. His Islamist supremacism is openly advertised and clear for all to see.

Why is the West doing this to itself? Political correctness and multiculturalism make us into an Eid lamb ready for slaughter by Islamofascists who want to gain power. It's not so different from the classical fascists who used democracy to get voted into office, then did away with democracy. The old one man, one vote, one time trick.

How many died the last time we appeased fascism? This time we are not only appeasing fascism, we are saying conquer us even when you are objectively weak, because we are already morally weak and have lost the will to live.

And Mansoor is considered a "moderate" in Britain...

YO AJMAL -

PRAY TELL - Why should former UK PM Tony Blair, a generally civilized human being wish to join the "CELLAR PEOPLE?"

-S-

re: #140 pediomelum

It depresses me no end that Tony Blair who risked so much for the struggle in Iraq is in the end a dhimmi. Why is Western leadership so dhimmi, so open-borders? Is it a death wish?

How does Blair being a Catholic make him a dhimmi? This article is someone's opinion about him. You'd have to hear Blair's words on the subject before you call him a dhimmi.

Personally, the fact that Masroor had the audacity to publicize his gossipy opinion speaks volumes of his character. What the hell business is it of his? His resume there doesn't mention any study of Christianity, so what does he know about it?

Seems to me, and I could be naive, but when Blair spoke of Islam and tolerance, it was the politician speaking, not his heart.

re: #149 Alas

L. Ron Hubbard's books even more so.

Now that's it. I think Blair should be a Scientologist. It's terribly progressive, you know! ;)

And Everyone -

The former PM converted to HIS WIFE'S faith. So did GW Bush, Episcopal to Methodist as I remember. Tends to make it easier on the children. The UK "Constitution" - unlike ours - seems to discourage, if not more, the idea of a Catholic PM.

-S-

re: #152 marjoriemoon

re: #149 Alas

L. Ron Hubbard's books even more so.

Now that's it. I think Blair should be a Scientologist. It's terribly progressive, you know! ;)

It is quite unflattering to Islam that Scientology comes out well in the comparison.

Heh. We're not allowed to be offended at all by this comment. We're a part of Western Society, which, as we all know, is the most vile thing to ever cross the path of the world! Don't you people know we're at fault for EVERY wrong in the world from the time man first walked the earth to the present?!?!?!?

/sarcasm off

Seriously. Islam in the form that is spreading like wildfire across the globe is a "religion" of Flat Earthers at best, vile pedophiliac homicidal maniacs at worst. Those who practice the "moderate" form of Islam are looked upon as heretics and infidels by the much more vocal and much more insistent "minority" fringe in the religion. Until moderate Muslims start raising their voices in outrage en masse at comments like those made in the name of their faith by asshats like this guy, instead of cartoons that are critical of their faith, I'll continue to distrust them in general.

This is exacly the kind of revionism, and supremacism that one would expect from someone who dosn't want to read some history books.

Let me comment on a few things.

Tony Blair’s conversion to Catholicism does not come as a surprise to anyone but I would have liked him to turn to Islam instead.

Why? To get 4 wives, plus what his right hand might possess?

Blair has claimed on many occasions that he has read the Quran and has said he found its teachings “progressive”.

Compared to what? Hitler? Stalin?

He is right that the Quran is progressive and as a revealed book of God, it is the latest testament.

No, it isn't. The Qur'an is a cook book, with jewish anecdotes, christian myths and pagan influence as "ingredients".
The Only "Testaments" God has revelad are the Holy Tanakh and the New Testament.

Why would Blair turn to the older versions of God’s testament when there is the Quran?

Perhaps because the Qur'an is a book of lies, while the Bible is not?

His conversion sounds rather regressive to me.

Coming from someone who wants to implant 7th century arabian culture in the 21th century, this comment is rather hilarious.

If he is looking for reform and spirituality, he should come to Islam.

Why should he, since Islam is a false religion? Why turn to falsehood when you have the truth close at hand?

Blair has said the Quran strikes him as a reforming book “trying to return Judaism and Christianity to their origins, much as reformers attempted to do with the Christian church centuries later”. If he so admires the Quran for its reformist outlook, why turn to Christianity and particularly Catholic Church, which has been plagued with centuries of baggage?

Perhaps Blair such things in order to be politically correct, not because he really believes that that arabian book is really GOd's revelation. When the time came to make a decision, Blair has shown where is affiliation is. Thank God for that.
Speakin with baggaga, islamo-nazism is filled with arabian pagan baggage. Why doesn't he comment on that?

In an article published by Foreign Affairs early this year, Blair spoke of the Quran as being inclusive.

Blair lied, since the Qur'an is not inclusive. It's a mysogynistic fairytela, written by arabs in order to promote their culture.

His new Church has been the most exclusive and in the name of its own version of Christianity has murdered and destroyed the lives and properties of many fellow Christians over the years.

Yes, the Catholic church has its share of sins, however no Muslim in the world has the authority to point the finger at them, since Islam has killed more CHristians than ANY religion in the world. Islma has invaded and destroyed Christian nations like Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, etc, and has replaced the local culture with arab culture and the arab religion.

So no Muslim has the moral high ground to point the finger at anyone.

In his role as a Middle East envoy he would have won the hearts and minds of the Muslim world if he had come to Islam.

The sons of apes and pigs can't win the hearts of the "pak" (clean) muslims. NOt even other Muslims can do that, so why even try?

He might have found redemption for his crimes against Iraq and its innocent people.

Saddam died has a Muslim. Did he find redemption for his crimes against the innocent Muslims in Iraq?

His conversion to Catholicism would no doubt remind the Muslim world, especially the Arab world of the history of the Crusades.

You mean, the history in which the Christians fought back against the arab invasion of CHristian lands? Who are you to point the finger?
The blood of millions of Christians cries out against the arabian religion. What are you going to do?

Ajmal Masroor needs to wake up and realise several simple truths, many of which have nothing to do with Islam:

1/ Tony Blair wants to be the first real president of Europe. The fact that he has a Catholic wife but was himself not openly religious was hurting his popularity with the Christian masses (which still make up over 40% in Western Europe, and possibly as high as 80% in Eastern Europe, so just a few of the electorate!).

2/ Tony Blair has a long history of saying what his audience of the day want to hear. To leftist trade unions he would say one thing, to his own mid-left wing party he would say another, and then to the general UK electorate yet another promise. All could be completely incompatible, it didn't matter to Blair, just as long as he got the votes. The idiotic muslims that listened when he sprouted the junk he did about islam obviously did not know the same week he was saying virtually identical statements about the strengths of Christianity. At one time or other, Blair has endorsed the "inclusive nature" and "community strengths" of Hinduism, Sikhism, socialism and even conservatism! He is just another lying PC politician, the only difference is he is actually a quite smart liar.

3/ Blair's conversion to Catholicism has more to do with a nagging wife than religious conviction. Cherie is a life-time Catholic and has always stated she wanted him to convert. Then again, she is also a raging leftist whom has given legal support to those that have attempted to harm Britain and its interests, so whilst it may upset any Catholic lizards to hear it, I would personally not p*ss on her if she was on fire!

re: #158 harmless

3/ Blair's conversion to Catholicism has more to do with a nagging wife than religious conviction. Cherie is a life-time Catholic and has always stated she wanted him to convert. Then again, she is also a raging leftist whom has given legal support to those that have attempted to harm Britain and its interests, so whilst it may upset any Catholic lizards to hear it, I would personally not p*ss on her if she was on fire!

Cherie Blair once said something such as poverty and frustration create suicide bombers.

re#158: Oh, My
Blair has attended mass for some years now. He is a intelligent man who makes sound judgements. His conversion was long put off only to put-off controversy in Parliment and amongst some of the citizenry.
As for Islams reaction, who cares. We should tire of their critisism and rejection.
Islam is intolerant and Fascist. We really do need to stop treating Muslims as if they our some kind of bruised merchandise, or delicate possession that needs extrodinary care to preserve. I f Islam cannot be peaceful and tolerant of others, then they should be forced to indure the intolerance of those to whom they would injure.
One first thing that Islam needs to explain is why do they claim Mohammed to be somehow devine, when Mohammed, when asked, said he was not devine.

re: #74 Peter Verkooijen

re: #68 stevieray

... Like that dope Will Smith said the other day: Hitler probably thought he was doing good. ...

Yes, that was actually an insightful comment. I found it really annoying that people including the Jewish Defense League got all excited about it.

But how do you mean "dope". As opposed to "wack". Or as in dopey? ;-)

I didn't hear the quote, but it is safe to say that
if you get your philosophy from Will Smith, you probably get your breakfast from Froot Loops and your math skills from Sesame Street.

Ajmal Mansour is an arrogant jerk.
The excerpts from his website (which I will have to read at some point) and the Guardian (aaargh) article prove it.
He is also a member of the MCB, that says it all.
If he thinks himself progressive he's just going to have to leave Islam. The radical end of it is beyond redemption. The moderate end is foggy and it's hard to tell where they stand, and if they don't take a stand against the jihadists they will be dead or terminally infected by it.

#158 harmless - made some very good points but Tony Blair has been no friend to Britain, esp England. He is a dhimmi, not to Islam (that's appeasement) but to political power. He and Brown have spent 10 years dismantalling a lot of the checks and balances in our democratic system in order to hang onto power, no matter what the cost. That cost has been the right to defend our borders, keep what used to be a an ordered immigration system and left us open to an invasion of people from all over the world, a great many wishing to milk the welfare system, the NHS and indulge themselves in both criminal and terrorist activity. They are still trying to divvy up the UK to sell it off to Europe. I agree Blair wants to be President of Europe (the EU anyway) but he's just too stupid to realise that the French and the Germans will never let him have it. Both are traitors. We have gone from simmering to bubbling anger imho. There have even been calls by people in the comments columns of the papers to get the army to depose Brown. If we get that angry then troubles brewing. Brown is busy hiding as usual. He even slinked off to sign the EU Treaty against our wishes and without the referendum they both promised us because he knew we'd vote no.

My little artificial xmas tree doesn't have a fairy on the top - it has a dove of peace. The poor little thing is wired on and hanging on for dear life this year. A bit like our country.

In case you missed it, the author it none other than Imam Masroor, the very same moron behind the atrocious "Make Me a Muslim" tv reality show.

Can't blame him.. he must believe he's on a roll, what with the free pass being given to Islam by the press there.

What do you mean islam is not progressive? No one can touch the "religion of peace" when it comes to progressively encouraging and arming new converts to embrace hate and violence and progressively morph into a violent murderous freak who's greatest thrill is the maiming and murder of innocent people. I mean, c'mon, give credit where credit is due.

It's interesting how this guy says "He is right that the Quran is progressive and as a revealed book of God, it is the latest testament. Why would Blair turn to the older versions of God’s testament when there is the Quran? His conversion sounds rather regressive to me".

Well, if you ask the Mormons, theirs is the "newest" testament, so shouldn't all the Muslims be converting to Mormonism?

His conversion to Catholicism would no doubt remind the Muslim world, especially the Arab world of the history of the Crusades.

I never realized they needed reminding.

re: #74 Peter Verkooijen

re: #68 stevieray

... Like that dope Will Smith said the other day: Hitler probably thought he was doing good. ...

Yes, that was actually an insightful comment. I found it really annoying that people including the Jewish Defense League got all excited about it.

Suppose he said Osama Bin Laden was a good person. Suppose he said the child-murderers of Beslan were good people. Would you think that was insightful?

Suppose he said the KKK were good people. Suppose he said the guy who shot Martin Luther King was a good person. Would you find it annoying if Black Americans got excited about it?

Do tell us.

Catholic Church, which has been plagued with centuries of baggage?

Be progressive! Women, get rid of old baggage, and throw on this bag. Men, bag as many young cousins, nieces, pre-teens and goats as you can.

bag for bag...Islam gag.

If he so admires the Quran for its reformist outlook, why turn to Christianity

Because actions speak louder than words.

Gee, Ajmal Masroor understood Blair's comments differently than I did... I thought that Blair's weak praise for Islam was diplomat-speak for "I'd rather hug the week-old carcass of a dog that died of dysentery than become Muslim." I'm sure he used the word "progressive" in the same sense as other Orwellian catchphrases ("war is peace" "freedom is slavery" "Islam is progressive"). And sure, Islam is "inclusive" if you want to pay jizya to keep your head attached to your neck.

Before 9/11 I didn't care one way or the other about Islam. Since learning more about what it teaches (including the repugnant, eternal bordello it offers to those who die for Allah) I have come to LOATHE Islam, and the lying liars who promote it as a "perfect way of life" (Orwell again) to midget-minded losers here in the West.

No wonder Tony Blair chose to be on the same side as those who launched the Crusades against the continued onslaught of this predatory "Religion of Peace" (Orwell yet again).

Well, sure. cause islam is the one religion to rule them all.

but it's just a tiny minority of muslims that feel this way, right?

right?

/crickets...

re: #167 Sabraguy

Your shooting the messenger, I believe. he didnt' say he thought Hitler was right in thinking that...just that he probably did think he was doing the right thing. Of course, he was pure evil and maybe insane to boot...but that probably didn't stop him from having conversations with satan about how well everything was going.

Some of you need to listen harder/better/something.

re: #13 AndyMacOP

My favorite quote from this nonsense:

"His new Church has been the most exclusive and in the name of its own version of Christianity has murdered and destroyed the lives and properties of many fellow Christians over the years."

Really? Are you kidding me? Really? I am the first to acknowledge the faults and failings of my beloved Church, but really? Can this guy be that dim as to have said this?

Merry Christmas anyway!

AndyMacOP

Well, yeah, the fourth, or was it fifth?, Crusade was brutal in Constantinople. But EVEN THEN, it was NOTHING!, and I mean NOTHING, compared to what the Muslims visited upon the Christians of the East.

the sinner,

Charles

re: #9 DaMishMan

This tool states at the end:

He might have found redemption for his crimes against Iraq and its innocent people. His conversion to Catholicism would no doubt remind the Muslim world, especially the Arab world of the history of the Crusades. The blood of millions of people still stain the cobblestones of the Holy Land from the cold-blooded murders committed in the name of Christianity and was blessed by the then Papacy in Rome.

As usual he as well as others live centuries in the past and remember only the crusades. I challenge him and others to show me the 'millions' killed in that time by the Christians. There weren't.

What's more, the amount slaughtered by the 'progressive' muslims is glossed over. What about the 'millions' slaughtered in the name of islam over the centuries? Christianity did have its moments of killing to force conversation, but no where on the scale that islam has done. What's more, we grew up and out of that.

Christianity is the progressive religion. It grows and changes and recognizes its shortfalls and works to change them. Islam stays in the 7th century...or earlier...and refused to move forward.

So, Merry Christmas to all and the blessings of Christ the Lord upon you all.

Well, here's my problem with this: being "progressive," or "changing" does nothing to enhance the claim to veracity for your faith. The one thing that Islam *can* say is that it hasn't changed. We decry its violence, but only in light of our Christian, or vaguely, Christian background. Yes, the foundation of Islam is in violence and murder and, most importantly, in the demonic inspiration of a man greatly influenced by an Arian heretic monk. This goes a long way in explaining its denial of the Trinity (which is why the Muslims call Christians polytheists) and its aversion to icons (contained in the Western neo-gnosticism/Aristotelian world-view that is so common amongst both Protestant and Latin).

Changing means nothing - subjecting Truth to the confines or definitions of the human intellect, or whatever prevailing view of "reality" we may have at any time, is worthless. It only denigrates the very concept of capital "T" Truth in the first place. Of course, the West has become so ensconced within postmodernism, I wonder if we can detach ourselves from its influence some times.

In any event, Truth is Truth. Islam recognized that fact - but has always clung to a demonic lie. That is why it fails - not that it "fails to change." Christianity in the West has done something nearly as bad - it has "changed to fit the tastes of the day." The Reformation was poison, and we only prescribe the same poison to cure it.

I would recommend Tage Lindbom's "The Myth of Democracy."

the sinner,

Charles

Wonder what he thinks of the Second Siege of Vienna:

The Ottoman Army was mobilized on January 21, 1682, and war was declared on August 6, 1682.

The wording of this declaration left no room for doubt what would await in case of Turkish success. Mehmed IV. wrote to Leopold I verbatim, "Primarily we order You to await Us in Your residence city of Vienna so that We can decapitate You... (...) We will exterminate You and all Your followers... (...) Children and grown-ups will be exposed to the most atrocious tortures before put to an end in the most ignominious way imaginable..."

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]