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Vlaams Belang Joins with BNP, Other Eurofascists in New Anti-Islam Group

Thu, Jan 17, 2008 at 1:16:48 pm PST

Here we go again. Now the Belgian Vlaams Belang party is openly allying with the British National Party, in a new group opportunistically named “Cities against Islamisation.”

And remember: the BNP’s white supremacist leader Nick Griffin, a friend and ally of David Duke, has explicitly detailed their plan to attach themselves to the anti-jihadists, in order to gain political legitimacy.

Nice company that Gates of Vienna, the Center for Vigilant Freedom, Brussels Journal, Fjordman, and Atlas Shrugged are running with. Will they distance themselves from the Vlaams Belang now, or are they OK with the British National Party too?

If I had to predict, I’d bet they’ll be OK with the BNP. It’s easier after the first step.

SEVERAL European far-right parties announced a new organisation aimed at fighting the “Islamisation” of Europe.

The group dubbed “Cities against Islamisation” was presented to the media in the northern Belgian city of Antwerp by Filip Dewinter, head of the far-right Belgian party Vlaams Belang (Flemish Interest) along with Austrian FPOE leader Heinz-Christian Strace and Robert Spieler of the regionalist Alsace First group.

Parties from Britain (the British National Party), Denmark, Germany and Italy were also represented at the launch of the group which has a road-sign-style crossed-out mosque as its logo.

Thirty members of the new organisation then set off on a walk around areas of Antwerp with a high immigrant population.

(Hat tip: JammieWearingFool.)

UPDATE at 1/17/08 2:17:14 pm:

Photos from the press conference announcing the new group.

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723 comments

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1 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:19:13pm

Birds of a feather..... but these birds remind me of the nasty little street rats- I mean pigeons.

2 debutaunt  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:19:35pm

30. Count them. 30. Bet everyone's scared.

3 jemima  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:19:51pm

Vlaams Belang--the European gateway drug

4 Former SSG  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:20:26pm

This is proof positive of "beware the company you keep." Good judgment on the part of the "big Kahuna" here.

5 bulwrk  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:20:58pm

I see this turning out badly for Europe.

6 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:21:41pm

This is absolute poison to anti-jihadism as a whole. "Oh, look, they're just a bunch of racists."

7 konservo  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:22:00pm

But they're pro-Israel! ! !

/

8 Rodan[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:22:09pm
9 guftafs  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:22:23pm

GoV, BJ, et al have to pretend everything's OK. Or pretend nothing just happened. Don't know which would be funnier: them backtracking or them keep up the charade.

10 FreakyBoy  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:23:05pm

Yeah, but it's only a really small percentage of anti-islamic Euro-fascists that give the others a bad name.

/sarc

11 Tumulus11  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:23:10pm
'The group dubbed 'Cities against Islamisation' was presented to the media in the northern Belgian city of Antwerp by Filip Dewinter, head of the far-right Belgian party Vlaams Belang (Flemish Interest) along with Austrian FPOE leader Heinz-Christian Strace and Robert Spieler of the regionalist Alsace First group.'


. 'Nazis against Islamisation' would be more accurate.

12 JammieWearingFool  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:23:21pm

Thanks for the HT, Charles.

13 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:24:46pm

I wonder if this is the sign and German party of which they speak.

14 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:25:15pm
the launch of the group which has a road-sign-style crossed-out mosque as its logo


That symbol is going to be a problem. They've been using it for a while. If someone digs up a pitcure of Robert Spencer or Ayaan Hirsi Ali speaking with that symbol in the background their careers are finished. It's like being photographed with a swastika.

15 LSD  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:25:18pm

Somethings Rotten ...

16 konservo  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:25:58pm
Nice company that Gates of Vienna, the Center for Vigilant Freedom, Brussels Journal, Fjordman, and Atlas Shrugged are running with. Will they distance themselves from the Vlaams Belang now, or are they OK with the British National Party too?

Hmmm... IIRC, I remember some of these folks acknowledging that BNP was no good. But that was in the context of "it's not like the VB is the BNP." It will be interesting to see what they have to say for themselves now.

I don't really expect much, though.

17 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:26:10pm

re: #12 JammieWearingFool

Dingalink!
/WZ

18 konservo  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:26:49pm
re: #11 Tumulus11

'Nazis against Islamisation' would be more accurate.

LOL!

19 JammieWearingFool  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:26:56pm

How long until my HT gets dinged down?

/

20 EtNorskTroll  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:28:23pm

I wonder what B'at Yeor would have to say about this development.

I believe she attended a certain meeting with VB last year, didn't she?

In times past, she has spoken extensively about the threat of Islam to normal, civilized societies.

Anyone have a way to contact her and get a comment?

/just asking

~Norsk Troll

21 Dianna  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:28:47pm

That didn't take long, did it? It was what, three months ago that this all started, and VB couldn't even wait for the controversy to die down before aligning themselves, publicly, with the BNP.

This should be interesting to watch.

22 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:28:55pm
23 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:29:04pm

re: #13 Sharmuta

Yup, that's it. VB has been using that symbol for a while now.

24 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:30:05pm

re: #23 Killgore Trout

That article even mentions VB, and that party is taking money from a Holocaust denier.

25 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:30:13pm

re: #19 JammieWearingFool

You've got one already.

26 JammieWearingFool  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:31:35pm

re: #25 Killgore Trout

re: #19 JammieWearingFool

You've got one already.

What the heck is an everlasting gobstopper? A VB supporter?

27 Dianna  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:32:32pm

Please excuse me. This looks like an interesting topic, but I'm too damn sick to sit up any longer.

Take care.

28 konservo  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:32:54pm
along with Austrian FPOE

Hmm... Is this the same as the FPÖ?

29 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:33:36pm
30 nyc redneck  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:33:38pm

re: #27 Dianna

Please excuse me. This looks like an interesting topic, but I'm too damn sick to sit up any longer.

Take care.

heck. thought you were feeling better.

31 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:33:56pm

re: #26 JammieWearingFool

I don't know.

32 gman  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:34:49pm
If I had to predict, I’d bet they’ll be OK with the BNP. It’s easier after the first step.

I bet they will side with them too, because it's too (gulp) difficult for them to swallow their pride and admit they were wrong.

33 marwan's daughter  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:35:15pm

So when the inevitable war on the European continent erupts, it will be fascist vs. fascist. Where does that leave moderates?

34 obscured by clouds  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:35:24pm

If these people have their way Europe would become "Balkanized" and it would only make matters much worse. I haven't really kept up with the whole Vlaams Belang party/BNP drama but I am rather surprised that Atlas Shrugged is (apparently) in cahoots with them.

I would imagine that the average life expectancy of anyone sporting the new logo (with the mosque being crossed out) would be about the same as a one-legged tight rope walker in all too many areas of Europe. Hell, I was wearing my arabic embroidered "infidel" t-shirt and was accosted in freakin' Harrodsburg, Kentucky by an Arab. True story.

35 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:35:44pm

re: #28 konservo

along with Austrian FPOE

Hmm... Is this the same as the FPO?

Yes:

along with Austrian FPOE leader Heinz-Christian Strace

36 Globular Cluster  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:35:47pm

An excellent documentary on the BNP, called "Young, Nazi and Proud", produced in the UK, can be downloaded here:

[Link: www.mininova.org...]

Worth watching.

37 Dianna  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:35:50pm

re: #30 nyc redneck

So did I. I'm not.

I'm home. I slept until 12, got up and walked the dogs, read some LGF, and now I'm falling over.

Presently, I'm trying to get the energy to walk up the stairs to bed.

38 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:36:12pm
39 Ringo the Gringo  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:36:46pm

Europe is in big trouble. On the one hand you have the various neo-fascist groups mentioned above, and on the other hand you have the utterly naive Alliance of Civilizations which is trying to find a compromise between Islam and the West.

Either way the future looks pretty bleak for freedom in Europe.

40 Rodan[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:37:00pm
41 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:37:03pm
42 TimK  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:37:44pm

I appreciate your stand Charles, but since the Liberal elites are/have been ignoring the problem these Facists are the only game in town. There is a crying need for a more reasonable front group to stand up against Islamism.

43 EtNorskTroll  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:37:50pm

I happened to be in a coffee house the other day. I'm looking up from my cup of mud and see an elderly man across the room. He looks exactly like Adolph Hitler!

I walked over to him and said: "Excuse me, sir, but I couldn't help your resemblance to Adolph Hitler...all the way down to your mustache."

"I am Hitler", he replied.

I was astonished.

"What are you doing here in my country?", I asked.

"I'm here to kill 10 million Jews and 15 circus clowns", he replied coolly.

"15 circus clowns? Why do you want to kill 15 circus clowns?", I asked in amazement.

"See? There you go!", he said, condescendingly "Nobody cares about the Jews!"

~ENT

44 konservo  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:37:58pm

re: #9 guftafs

GoV, BJ, et al have to pretend everything's OK. Or pretend nothing just happened. Don't know which would be funnier: them backtracking or them keep up the charade.

I think it would be good if they admitted they were wrong, and an apology to Charles and LGF would be nice too, but acknowledging reality seems like the first step.

45 Rodan[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:39:40pm
46 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:40:26pm
47 konservo  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:41:05pm

re: #35 Sharmuta

Thanks.

I figured, one of DeWinter's heroes was Jörg Haider

48 coquimbojoe  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:41:06pm

Good luck with that. Just don't try to attach yourself to other movements trying to keep Islam from ruling all. Also, understand your racism makes you easily ignorable.

49 Pope Urban  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:41:22pm

Arn't they the military wing of the same group that gives candy from the charity wing of the group thats forming the political wing of the anti-jihadi movement?

/just asking

gwG

50 Rodan[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:42:28pm
51 Iron Fist  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:42:48pm

re: #33 marwan's daughter,

That is kind of the way WWI was. It was basically Imperialists vs. Imperialists ove third world spoils. Lovely.

52 Globular Cluster  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:43:01pm

Charles,

The documentary "Young, Nazi, and Proud" can be found already streaming at google video:

53 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:43:12pm

re: #47 konservo

It's like a racist fraternity- they're all in with each other.

54 Christoph  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:43:37pm

Atlas Shrugs has this on their website now:

"Jerusalem is Jewish. It is ours. End of story. Israel stand up!"

...

"DON'T BELIEVE YOUR LYING EYES
BELIEVE OUR MUSLIM LIES"

Just sayin'.

55 guftafs  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:44:05pm

re: #44 konservo

re: #45 Rodan

Them acknowledging facts is a flying-pigs moment. I will be very surprised if they do.

56 Rodan[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:44:09pm
57 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:45:29pm

Good one. How recent is that?

58 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:46:36pm

re: #52 Globular Cluster

Please add that to the spinoffs.

59 Ringo the Gringo  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:47:51pm

What ever became of Ed the weatherman?

I noticed he disappeared shortly after this Vlaams Belang imbroglio started.

60 so.cal.swede  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:48:17pm

I can't find any source to this article, and i can't find anything about this group "cities against islamisation" ...


48h?

61 Jonas Parker  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:48:51pm

Remember the old adage, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"...

62 jcm  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:49:34pm

re: #59 Ringo the Gringo

What ever became of Ed the weatherman?

I noticed he disappeared shortly after this Vlaams Belang imbroglio started.

He was stabbing Charles in the back.

63 Alouette  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:49:43pm

Oh goody, a fight to the death between Euro-fascists and Islamo-fascists.

I hope they both win!

64 Athos  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:50:00pm

re: #54 Christoph

Pamela hates so much that she really doesn't care with whom she will ally with against the islamofascists. So, she allies with Eurofascists.

65 gman  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:50:32pm

Does anyone have the names of the other parties in this group?

I'm wondering if Dansk Folkeparti has joined up as well?

66 Athos  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:50:38pm

re: #61 Jonas Parker

Remember the old adage, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"...

Sorry - doesn't fly when dealing with these groups.

67 so.cal.swede  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:50:55pm

Charles,

I don't think Cities against islamisation is a "group" it seems to have been a protest march in Antwerp...

68 Dirk Diggler  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:50:59pm

Ringo the Gringo,

What ever became of Ed the weatherman?

I noticed he disappeared shortly after this Vlaams Belang imbroglio started.



Ed was banned shortly before Thanksgiving.

69 konservo  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:51:27pm

re: #50 Rodan

re: #47 konservo

Haider was buddies wuith Hussein.
He also admires Iran.

Yeah, he's just like the rest of the opportunistic Jew-haters.

70 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:51:40pm

re: #56 Rodan

Well- the euro-nazis are trying to piggy-back onto the counter-jihad.

71 konservo  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:52:23pm

re: #63 Alouette

Oh goody, a fight to the death between Euro-fascists and Islamo-fascists.

I hope they both win!

LOL! I hope they both lose!

72 chinesearithmetic  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:53:08pm

A supergroup, like Blind Faith.

73 Ringo the Gringo  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:53:20pm

re: #62 jcm

Well, living in southern California, Charles has no need for a weatherman anyhow...especially a back-stabbing weatherman.

74 Globular Cluster  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:53:43pm

re: #58 Killgore Trout

Done

75 Athos  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:53:45pm

re: #70 Sharmuta

re: #56 Rodan

Well- the euro-nazis are trying to piggy-back onto the counter-jihad.

They seek respectability via association - we obtain respectability by our disassociation from those groups.

76 eastvillageinfidel  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:54:08pm

This is a very interesting development. I, for one, can't wait to see how all those gutless, principle-free assholes that trashed us spin it.

77 Jonas Parker  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:54:16pm

re: #71 konservo

re: #63 Alouette

Oh goody, a fight to the death between Euro-fascists and Islamo-fascists.

I hope they both win!

LOL! I hope they both lose!

As long as they just kill each other, who gives a rat's fanny?

78 Rodan[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:54:18pm
79 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:54:54pm

re: #67 so.cal.swede

SEVERAL European far-right parties announced a new organisation aimed at fighting the "Islamisation" of Europe.


I think it's pretty clear that they are forming a new organisation. It's an alliance, not just a casual meeting.

80 Ojoe  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:55:02pm

There once were two cats from Kilkenny
Each thought there was one cat too many
So they fought and they fit
And they scratched and they bit
'Till instead of two cats
There wern't any.

81 EtNorskTroll  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:55:05pm

What?!?

You're all afraid to talk about B'at Yeor?

Wonder why....


*cough, cough*

~ENT

82 zarxos  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:55:26pm

Stanford has joined the University of Chicago in suggesting that suicide bombings have nothing to do with Islam: [Link: news-service.stanford.edu...]

And this "senior fellow" cites our friend Mr. Pape in her reading list.

83 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:55:30pm

re: #65 gman

Does anyone have the names of the other parties in this group?

I'm wondering if Dansk Folkeparti has joined up as well?

I'd put money on Dansk Folkeparti being involved. This party recently used an inflammatory ad in their election campaign- this seems right up their alley.

84 Rodan[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:55:30pm
85 nyc redneck  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:57:32pm

re: #42 TimK

I appreciate your stand Charles, but since the Liberal elites are/have been ignoring the problem these Facists are the only game in town. There is a crying need for a more reasonable front group to stand up against Islamism.

who will it be and when will it happen?
yesterday would be good.

86 Athos  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:57:55pm

re: #84 Rodan

David Duke, Pat Buchanan, Don Black, etc are quite welcome and comfortable with VB, BNP, etc. The Eurofascists know that when the islamofascists obtain their goals, they are the first be given the choice to convert or die. The American fascists aren't under that same pressure yet - so they support fascism in general.

87 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:58:01pm

Here's a pic of Dewinter at the announcement. Anyone recognize the other creeps in that picture?

Right-wing groups launch anti-Islamisation campaign

Belgium's far-right Vlaams Belang party teamed up with radical groups from Austria and Germany on Thursday to launch a Charter to 'fight the Islamisation of West-European cities'.

anti-Islamasation "We are not opposed to freedom of religion but we don't want Muslims to impose their way of life and traditions over here because much of it is not compatible with our way of life," Vlaams Belang's Filip Dewinter told Radio Netherlands Worldwide. "We can't accept headscarves in our schools, forced marriages and the ritual slaughter of animals."

88 so.cal.swede  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:58:40pm

I can't find ANYTHING that echoes what this australian paper is claiming...


What's going on here?

89 konservo  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:58:43pm

re: #81 EtNorskTroll

WTF are you talking about?

90 snowcrash  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:58:47pm

Am watching the video, its very good. What a thin veneer of civility.Neo-Nazi thug.

91 Athos  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:58:48pm

re: #42 TimK

I appreciate your stand Charles, but since the Liberal elites are/have been ignoring the problem these Facists are the only game in town. There is a crying need for a more reasonable front group to stand up against Islamism.

Time for the silent majority to speak out.

92 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:59:21pm

re: #88 so.cal.swede

See #187.

93 Dirk Diggler  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:59:24pm

Ringo the Gringo,

Well, living in southern California, Charles has no need for a weatherman anyhow...especially a back-stabbing weatherman.

After he was banned here he started posting his weather crap at GoV and they threatened to ban him. I suspect he's still at GCP (maybe not though, Ed tends to wear out his welcome fast). Last time I visited that sewer, Ed was making a lot of comments about LGF's regulars being Charles Johnson's "ball washers".

Classy to the end.

94 rappmandu  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:59:41pm

re: #87 Killgore Trout

Speaking of De Winter, is it snow at your place, too?

/

95 mink  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 1:59:57pm

It seem like the logical inevitable outgrowth of the policies the "liberal elites" of Europe have been pushing. It's not a good thing, but a predictable thing.

A rising tide of unassimilated immigrants with an underlying supremacist ideology, and the takeover and eventual erasure of the European culture is virtually assured. The Europeans are constantly being told this is a good thing - there is bound to be a response in kind. Unfortunate, but Europe's long stretch of relative peace will end dramatically within the next fifty years. Of course in the French suburbs they've got a head start.

96 Maximu§  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:00:04pm

I have to admit, I like the fact that the Europeans are waking up to the danger Islam poses to their culture, but once you start walking down this Fascist road, its a slippery slope.

Pretty soon there's a book-burning bonfire in front of the public library and goose-stepping soldiers not far behind.

Maximu§
3/11 ACR

97 so.cal.swede  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:00:22pm

re: #87 Killgore Trout

Here's a pic of Dewinter at the announcement. Anyone recognize the other creeps in that picture?

No... but where does it say anythingn about VB forming up with BNP? This was from a protest in Antwerp, where they wanted to stop mosques from being built. what's the BNP deal here?

98 nyc redneck  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:00:34pm

re: #82 zarxos

Stanford has joined the University of Chicago in suggesting that suicide bombings have nothing to do with Islam: [Link: news-service.stanford.edu...]

And this "senior fellow" cites our friend Mr. Pape in her reading list.

too many intellectuals have their heads up their asses today.

99 so.cal.swede  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:00:46pm

re: #92 Killgore Trout

re: #88 so.cal.swede

See #187.

See #97

100 Orde  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:00:48pm

By way of analogy, I'd like to offer an observation as one more illustration of why Charles' noncompromising approach is right, and that of GoV, Atlas, and others is wrong:

As a theologically conservative Christian, I and those in my camp are now suffering the damage done by Christian compromisers during the '80s w/the Moral Majority and that's continued with the James Dobsons, and other moral crusaders up until now. What happened is this--there was and is a split within the theologically conservative camp about the proper way to manifest our biblical values--more privately or politically (even to the extent of pursuing legislating values) by aggressive lobbying and son on. Well a few, but a very vocal few, decided to join with all sorts of other "values voters" whose theological views are not even close to orthodox, some not even Christian at all, and now as a result, when one thinks of the "Religious Right" one thinks of theocratic numbskulls, loonies, hatemongerers, etc--and this is the taint that has stuck with us theologically conservative Christians because of our compromise with wackos--including white supremacists (!)--all because of a common cause that we elevated above all else.

Charles is right not to risk losing credibility by associating with racists, the others not only are sacrificing principles, but are being myopic, it's not even a pragmatic strategy.

101 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:02:18pm

re: #94 rappmandu

Dewinter is here! No snow but my little backyard pond is starting to freeze over.

102 konservo  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:02:19pm

re: #88 so.cal.swede

What about Killgore's link?

103 Golem Akbar  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:02:22pm

Attention all European Jews: watch out! This will not go well for you.

104 gman  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:02:35pm

re: #87 Killgore Trout

Here's a pic of Dewinter at the announcement. Anyone recognize the other creeps in that picture?

Right-wing groups launch anti-Islamisation campaign

Belgium's far-right Vlaams Belang party teamed up with radical groups from Austria and Germany on Thursday to launch a Charter to 'fight the Islamisation of West-European cities'.

anti-Islamasation "We are not opposed to freedom of religion but we don't want Muslims to impose their way of life and traditions over here because much of it is not compatible with our way of life," Vlaams Belang's Filip Dewinter told Radio Netherlands Worldwide. "We can't accept headscarves in our schools, forced marriages and the ritual slaughter of animals."

Looks like Pia Kjaersgaard on the far right. If so, that confirms it Sharm. Dansk Folkeparti.

105 jayzee  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:02:42pm

Aint it odd though that our racists, Paul, skinheads, Neo Nazis, Klan, etc hate the Joos most of all, while the European ones hate the Arabs?

106 derkrieger  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:03:09pm

Is there anyone else in Europe right now with the stones to form a group or organization willing to fight against Islamification? I don't support anyone's racist positions but "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". Are you waiting for some of the more moderate, mainstream parties to find the courage (chuckle) to stand up against the crushing political correctness enforced, advanced, and defended by all European mainstream political parties, MSM, and institutions?

If you are opposed to these right wing groups and the rest of the political class are cowards what then is the solution? A white knight riding in on a unicorn to save Europe from Islamic conquest? What is the alternative? You people bitch and moan about VB, BNP, Sd, et al but offer NO alternatives.

Europeans will and are moving to these parties precisely because they are the only ones who are advocating for Europe and not against it. If enough citizens join these parties do you not think their character will inevitably be changed?

108 Charles  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:03:36pm

re: #97 so.cal.swede

It's right in the article:

The group dubbed “Cities against Islamisation” was presented to the media in the northern Belgian city of Antwerp by Filip Dewinter, head of the far-right Belgian party Vlaams Belang (Flemish Interest) along with Austrian FPOE leader Heinz-Christian Strace and Robert Spieler of the regionalist Alsace First group.

Parties from Britain (the British National Party), Denmark, Germany and Italy were also represented at the launch of the group which has a road-sign-style crossed-out mosque as its logo.

I don't know much more clear it could be.

109 so.cal.swede  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:03:41pm

re: #102 konservo

re: #88 so.cal.swede

What about Killgore's link?

Again, no mention of BNP. just the same ol' trash from Belgium, and some mention about austria.


It seems it was more of a "protest against mosques" but the australian newspaper reported it as a "new anti-islam group" using the mosque as a logo.


... odd

110 Maximu§  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:03:58pm

re: #103 Golem Akbar

Attention all European Jews: watch out! This will not go well for you.

Are there any European Jews left in Europe?

Maximu§
3/11 ACR

111 insanity police  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:04:28pm

re: #107 insanity police

Scroll down to see it. You might remember that the student groups leader bashed LGF and its readers on their blog.

112 Carioca Canuck  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:04:39pm

Jayzee......

No kidding........read the crap at Stormfront and you'll see people saying that they should form alliances with Muslims to thwart Jewish people.

Nuts.....all of them.

113 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:04:55pm

re: #59 Ringo the Gringo

What ever became of Ed the weatherman?

I noticed he disappeared shortly after this Vlaams Belang imbroglio started.

He got banned for stabbing Charles in the back, and then he went and did it some more at GoV and AtS.

114 JimmyTheClaw  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:05:17pm

Bubba died in a fire and his body was burned pretty badly. The morgue needed someone to identify the body, so they sent for his two best friends, Cooter and Gomer. The three men had always done everything together.

Cooter arrived first, and when the mortician pulled back the sheet, Cooter said, "Yup, his face is burned up pretty bad. You better roll him over."

The mortician rolled him over and Cooter said, "Nope, ain't Bubba."

The mortician thought this was rather strange. So he brought Gomer in to confirm the identity of the body.

Gomer looked at the body and said, "Yup, he's pretty well burnt up. Roll him over."

The mortician rolled him over and Gomer said, "No, it ain't Bubba."

The mortician asked, "How can you tell?"

Gomer said, "Well, Bubba had two assholes."

"What? He had two assholes?" asked the mortician.

"Yup, we never seen 'em, but everybody used to say,

'There's Bubba with them two assholes.ʼ

115 Spenser (with an S)  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:06:30pm

re: #100 Orde

As a theologically conservative Christian

Me too, but what has James Dobson said or done that ticked you off?

/Really asking, I haven't heard.

116 Cousin Dave  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:07:03pm

This whole situation just gets worse and worse. Here's something that's scaring me. I am now convinced that without Anglosphere intervention, continental Europe will fall to the Islamists. The Western European countries have already made it clear that they intend to surrender as soon as the first shot is fired; eastern European countries may try to take a stand, but pinched between the Islamists and Russia, they won't have a chance without outside help.

As in the case in WWII, in order to fight in Europe (either metaphorically or physically), it will be necessary for the New Allies to have agents in Europe. Who will those agents be? What if the Eurofacists are the only choice? Do we take them as allies of convenience, or do we let Europe fall? If it were just France and Spain and their ilk, I wouldn't care so much, but if the Islamists cut a deal with Russia to share control of Poland, the Baltic states, the Scandinavian states, Germany, and Turkey, that could be bad news for the free world.

If the Eurofacists do turn out to be the only potential in-country ally? Not only is this bad on general principles. But if people like Filip Dewinter are associating with the likes of David Duke... well, have you seen who Duke has been hanging out with lately? He's busy playing kissy-face with Syria and Iran! The American skinheads have already made common cause with the Islamists. What if their involvement makes the Eurofacists an unreliable ally? Worse yet, what if the current Eurofacist alignment is all a charade, meant to permanantly discredit anti-jihadism in Europe? If that happens, I don't think Europe can be saved even with Anglosphere involvement.

To me, the only remaining hope is that somehow, an anti-facist, anti-jihadist movement must be launched in Europe. However, I am very pessimistic that such a movement can gain enough public support in Europe soon enough to do any good.

117 cagney  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:07:30pm

I've been here for a while and I'm still scratching my head trying to make sense of things.

One thing that seems to be emerging that there is an issue of identity with folk in Europe and in my home country of the UK. It is a question of how we deal with our imperialist past and the ethnic minorities in our country that emigrated here from former colonies.

The biggest destabilising thing in our transition from a white-only to multi-ethnic society is muslim extremism and integrating muslims into our society. The only solution being offered is multi-culturalism, any alternatives get muzzled by our politically correct and increasingly left-wing biased MSM.

Without the debate of any real alternatives, the far-right has jumped on the anti-jiahdi bandwagon offering white nationalism as a way of dealing with it. With the increasing stranglehold of left-wing bias and political alternatives in the media, there is a chance that more and more people will turn to this white nationalism as the only way of dealing with the issue.

Melaine Phlilips in her article, Liberalism v Islamism, suggested an alternative, pluralism in which:

allows for many different groupings but, unlike multiculturalism, does not try to impose one uniform status on all of them. It allows a thousand flowers to bloom, with minorities forming communities of faith, ethnicity or culture within a society — but under the overarching umbrella of a national identity to whose core values everyone signs up. It is only by having that overarching set of common values — monogamy, freedom of conscience, equal rights for women, freedom of expression —that a society coheres as a common project. And a liberal society is no exception. If a liberal society doesn’t accept a hierarchy of values, that there are core principles which are non-negotiable and to which everyone must sign up, then by definition it can no longer remain a liberal society but must fragment into a kind of Balkanised tribalism in which the strongest groups win through intimidation or force.

The ideal solution would be to build a common identity between the majority white and ethnic races. This can be done through nationalism but could it be done through shared cultural identity?

This sounds like pie in the sky niavety stuff and at the moment it is but if it could be forged then it could stop the balkanisation of our country.

The thing I have noticed looking at our cultural mediums, TV, music, films is that we all love American culture. We love Hollywood, American shows are all over our TV schedules and American RnB and Rap dominate the music scene.

The music scene and the subculture is interesting as it is not specific to race as British white, asian and black kids are into it. It is a basis for a common identity that I speak of.

If the ties of the Anglosphere could be strengthened especially with America which is founded on multi-ethnicity it may be a way forward.

Unfortunately I can't see this happening as our political elite, no matter if it is to the left, centre or right sees our future in Europe.

118 insanity police  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:07:53pm

A conservative blogger who is often on T.V. and whose articles have been linked on this site is having a community briefing about terrorism in the local community. I was lucky enough to get an invite. For security concerns I can't reveal who is doing the presentation, or where, but I'll report on it tomorrow.

119 Jonas Parker  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:07:56pm

re: #112 Carioca Canuck

Jayzee......

No kidding........read the crap at Stormfront and you'll see people saying that they should form alliances with Muslims to thwart Jewish people.

Nuts.....all of them.

Dhimmi forming alliances with Muslims... yeah! Right!

120 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:08:27pm

re: #99 so.cal.swede

I see no reason to doubt that BNP was there as reported. It's not like this is a huge story with lots of coverage.

121 justiceforall  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:08:29pm

Anti-Islam, white supremacism, fascism--all together. I'm not surprised. I'm glad some people see that this hysteria against Muslims in Europe is just as bad as the anti-Semitism that led to the slaughter of Jews and others during the Holocaust.

Can Europe be trusted not to go down the same path again?

122 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:08:39pm

From Killgore's link:

Dutch right-wing maverick politician Geert Wilders, who is currently producing a film about the danger of the Koran, also stayed away.

I'm glad he's staying away from dewinter. He would only be tainted by it if he was working with them.

123 Orde  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:10:12pm

OT: Bambino's got an excellent Spinoff Link (Terrorism) by the dynamic duo of R.Ehrenfeld and A.Lappen: Terror's financiers (zeros right in on the neglect of the Saudi role)

124 Jonas Parker  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:10:42pm

Islamofacists won't assimilate into your culture, they demand that you assimilate into theirs...

125 Cousin Dave  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:11:26pm

Looking back through the thread, I see that #84 Rodan already said what I said, more concisely.

126 insanity police  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:11:29pm

Have a good night everyone. Maybe I'll check back in later.

127 Ojoe  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:11:31pm

re: #100 Orde

Right you are.

Charity counts way above politics.

128 konservo  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:12:49pm

re: #126 insanity police

Have a good night everyone. Maybe I'll check back in later.

See ya! Keep us updated!

129 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:12:58pm
130 Golem Akbar  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:13:13pm

re: #110 Maximu§

re: #103 Golem Akbar


Attention all European Jews: watch out! This will not go well for you.

Are there any European Jews left in Europe?

Maximu§
3/11 ACR


Way too many. 1/2 million in France, and about 2 - 3 million in Russia and Ukraine. Maybe another 1/4 million in the rest of Europe and England.

131 Charles  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:13:15pm

re: #109 so.cal.swede

re: #102 konservo

re: #88 so.cal.swede

What about Killgore's link?

Again, no mention of BNP. just the same ol' trash from Belgium, and some mention about austria.


It seems it was more of a "protest against mosques" but the australian newspaper reported it as a "new anti-islam group" using the mosque as a logo.


... odd

There's nothing odd, it's exactly as the newspaper reported it. Here's a photo from the press conference announcing the group:

[Link: legacyeditorial.gettyimages.com...]

132 Boondock St. Bender  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:13:19pm

re: #105 jayzee

don't let em' fool ya'.The jews are on their list too.The arabs are a larger threat to them right now.

133 Orde  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:13:35pm

re: #82 zarxos

Stanford has joined the University of Chicago in suggesting that suicide bombings have nothing to do with Islam: [Link: news-service.stanford.edu...]
And this "senior fellow" cites our friend Mr. Pape in her reading list.


Nah, not Condi's Stanford!
/(trace the money)

134 Silhouette  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:13:59pm

Islamism is a threat against western civilization. Western civilization needs to win. But some can't separate race from culture, and think the only way to have western civilization is to have all white people. The cure is worse than the disease.

135 bulwrk  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:14:16pm

I see justiceforall is back

136 Globular Cluster  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:14:47pm

re: #90 snowcrash

Am watching the video, its very good. What a thin veneer of civility.Neo-Nazi thug.

Bingo. Their young, charismatic, charming, smart... and White Supremacists.

137 Charles  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:15:12pm

More pictures:

[Link: legacyeditorial.gettyimages.com...]

138 Golem Akbar  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:16:32pm
139 nolocon  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:16:41pm

re: #100 Orde

By way of analogy, I'd like to offer an observation as one more illustration of why Charles' noncompromising approach is right, and that of GoV, Atlas, and others is wrong:

As a theologically conservative Christian, I and those in my camp are now suffering the damage done by Christian compromisers during the '80s w/the Moral Majority and that's continued with the James Dobsons, and other moral crusaders up until now. What happened is this--there was and is a split within the theologically conservative camp about the proper way to manifest our biblical values--more privately or politically (even to the extent of pursuing legislating values) by aggressive lobbying and son on. Well a few, but a very vocal few, decided to join with all sorts of other "values voters" whose theological views are not even close to orthodox, some not even Christian at all, and now as a result, when one thinks of the "Religious Right" one thinks of theocratic numbskulls, loonies, hatemongerers, etc--and this is the taint that has stuck with us theologically conservative Christians because of our compromise with wackos--including white supremacists (!)--all because of a common cause that we elevated above all else.

Charles is right not to risk losing credibility by associating with racists, the others not only are sacrificing principles, but are being myopic, it's not even a pragmatic strategy.


The attacks on the "Religious Right" derives from outright bigotry and hatred of anyone expressing a moral opinion at odds with Leftist ideology.
The "taint" you speak of is largely contrived. That is, virtually EVERY "cause" is an amalgam of groups with differing motives and philosophy.

What matters is the ability to so thoroughly demogoue and propagandize a "cause" that it becomes more associated with the fringe members than with the mainstream.

Same thing here. An enemy (here, the Left and MSM) searches for any hook to smear anti-IslamoFascists. If it wasn't the neo-fascist angle, it'd be some other.

140 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:16:50pm

re: #99 so.cal.swede
Here's another account that notes the BNP presence.....
L'extrême droite européenne unie dans la haine des étrangers

a common enemy can be a powerful cement for couples flying from the wing. In this case, Islamophobia which acts as Viagra.
Gathered Thursday (in Antwerp, of course), several far-right parties have launched a movement that must combat "creeping Islamization of Western Europe."
. The delicate, the former Commissioner of Police Bert Antwerp Debie said that "we must stop to open mosques in cities like Antwerp." “ "We must stop the influx of immigrants and Muslims must stores Islamists (sic) respect Belgian legislation hygiene or social laws, or they close," was strangled on the municipal councillor Vlaams Belang.
Amid the international press, also stood officials FPOe Austrian, German and the Republikaner BNP British. There were still a few racist Danish, Italian and french. However, no trace of Romanians... Intolerance has its limits ...
141 Maximu§  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:17:17pm

Charles, in 10 years these radical parties mentioned in this thread will be in power, because the present governments have turned their backs on their own citizens.

I'm no fan of these people, but we're looking at the future of Europe.

Maximu§
3/11 ACR

142 justiceforall  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:17:45pm

re: #84 Rodan

You'd be surprised who aligns with who. I mean, Hitler aligned with a lot of people who were not white because of political convenience. The U.S. has also aligned with Islamists because of a common cause against the Soviets. And you see people like Chavez buddy-up with Iran over a shared interest against the U.S.

I think it all being a front is pretty far-fetched.

143 MandyManners  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:17:58pm

I'm glad my ancestors got out of Europe.

144 infidel4ever  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:18:50pm

Credit where credit is due, though: So far, Vlaams Belang is the only political party that has made a statement in support of Geert Wilders, re the speech of that horrible Syrian mufti in the EUSSR Parliament.

Vlaams Belang stands up for Wilders 17/01/2008 00:00Flemish independence and anti-immigration party Vlaams Belang stood up for Dutch politician Geert Wilders on Thursday.


17 January 2008

BRUSSELS – Flemish independence and anti-immigration party Vlaams Belang stood up for Dutch politician Geert Wilders on Thursday, condemning the "threat" addressed to the Netherlands by the grand mufti of Syria last Tuesday.

The grand mufti told news agency ANP after his speech in the plenary assembly of the European Parliament on Tuesday that if Wilders' film project on the Koran leads to violence and bloodshed, then Geert Wilders himself is responsible for those consequences.

The grand mufti called on the Dutch public to stop Wilders before he airs his film.

The Vlaams Belang condemned these "threats addressed to Europeans who exercise their freedom of expression." The grand mufti should rescind his comments, the party says.

If he does not, he should never be allowed in the European Parliament again, says the Vlaams Belang.

[Link: www.expatica.com...]

The rest of the politicians here just nodded their heads and cowered...

I don't know if Wilders has commented, he stays as far away as possible from VB.

145 justiceforall  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:19:39pm

re: #142 justiceforall

I do of course mean, in my U.S. example, during the Cold War, which I am aware is long over.

146 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:20:43pm

"Alsace First"! LOL. Like VB being Flemish nationalists...

I'll be over in the corner, handing out flyers for the "Tarrant County People's Front", which expound on the glorious history of the peoples of my region of greater DFW.

Spanish language flyers will not be available

147 Athos  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:20:57pm

re: #141 Maximu§

Charles, in 10 years these radical parties mentioned in this thread will be in power, because the present governments have turned their backs on their own citizens.

I'm no fan of these people, but we're looking at the future of Europe.

Maximu§
3/11 ACR

I hope you are wrong - but am afraid you are not. Fascism will be prevelent there one way or another and the carnage in the 21st Century will exceed the carnage that took place in Europe in the 20th Century.

148 nyc redneck  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:21:32pm

re: #141 Maximu§

Charles, in 10 years these radical parties mentioned in this thread will be in power, because the present governments have turned their backs on their own citizens.

I'm no fan of these people, but we're looking at the future of Europe.

Maximu§
3/11 ACR

that is a chilling prospect.

149 Golem Akbar  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:21:41pm

re: #141 Maximu§

Charles, in 10 years these radical parties mentioned in this thread will be in power, because the present governments have turned their backs on their own citizens.

I'm no fan of these people, but we're looking at the future of Europe.

Maximu§
3/11 ACR


Europe seems to have a long history of turning to fascism when things get rough.

150 konservo  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:21:54pm

re: #140 Killgore Trout

From your link:

But a common enemy can be a powerful cement for couples flying from the wing. In this case, Islamophobia which acts as Viagra

LOL!

151 guftafs  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:22:06pm

re: #144 infidel4ever

Credit where credit is due, though: So far, Vlaams Belang is the only political party that has made a statement in support of Geert Wilders, re the speech of that horrible Syrian mufti in the EUSSR Parliament.
[Link: www.expatica.com...]

The rest of the politicians here just nodded their heads and cowered...

I don't know if Wilders has commented, he stays as far away as possible from VB.

I don't know. Why do they stand up for Wilders? They don't do it for freedom or free speech.

152 MarshallOnellion  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:22:22pm

This has been predicted. If Western Europe follows the political pattern of the late 1920s on, the secular, liberal, self-described tolerant parties will wring their hands. Meanwhile, Europeans who are not and don't want to become or be dominated by Islam will have a cruel choice- the BNP or dhimmi status. And these are the people and governments who, from their lofty peak of moral superiority lecture us? Hmmm.....

153 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:23:22pm

re: #144 infidel4ever

This article Killgore linked says Wilders was not there.

154 njdhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:24:24pm

re: #149 Golem Akbar

re: #141 Maximu§


Charles, in 10 years these radical parties mentioned in this thread will be in power, because the present governments have turned their backs on their own citizens.

I'm no fan of these people, but we're looking at the future of Europe.

Maximu§
3/11 ACR


Europe seems to have a long history of turning to fascism when things get rough.

Then the US & UK always seem to come and bail the out. I hope we have a strong enough leader, when that time comes, that has the testicles to save the world again.

155 Globular Cluster  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:24:45pm

re: #149 Golem Akbar

re: #141 Maximu§

Charles, in 10 years these radical parties mentioned in this thread will be in power, because the present governments have turned their backs on their own citizens.

I'm no fan of these people, but we're looking at the future of Europe.

Maximu§
3/11 ACR


Europe seems to have a long history of turning to fascism when things get rough.

Europeans can never be fascists as long as they hate Bush.

156 konservo  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:25:07pm

re: #151 guftafs

re: #144 infidel4ever


Credit where credit is due, though: So far, Vlaams Belang is the only political party that has made a statement in support of Geert Wilders...

I don't know. Why do they stand up for Wilders? They don't do it for freedom or free speech.

They're pandering for support, just like they did with the SIOE.

157 MandyManners  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:25:11pm

re: #149 Golem Akbar

re: #141 Maximu§


Charles, in 10 years these radical parties mentioned in this thread will be in power, because the present governments have turned their backs on their own citizens.

I'm no fan of these people, but we're looking at the future of Europe.

Maximu§
3/11 ACR


Europe seems to have a long history of turning to fascism when things get rough.

Do they have a goose-stepping gene?

158 Rodan[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:25:14pm
159 nolocon  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:25:17pm

re: #134 Silhouette

Islamism is a threat against western civilization. Western civilization needs to win. But some can't separate race from culture, and think the only way to have western civilization is to have all white people. The cure is worse than the disease.


It is almost exclusively a post-WWII/Holocaust phenomenon to believe that race and culture are separate. The reasons for that belief are understandable, namely, we witnessed first-hand the eventual consequence when race is exalted over humanity.
Ironically western caucasians are virtually the ONLY ethnic/racial group on Planet Earth that believes ethnicity and race should be considered distinguishable to culture/civilization.

160 Ojoe  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:25:25pm

re: #149 Golem Akbar

I was in Italy lately & I heard comments that make me agree with you.

161 guftafs  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:25:51pm

re: #146 Pawn of the Oppressor

"Alsace First"! LOL. Like VB being Flemish nationalists...

The Balkanization of Europe. If these guys have their way, the "disappearance" of the Muslims will only be the beginning. If all non-European elements are driven out, they'll start looking at each other saying, "Hang on there, I remember the battle of X in YYYY. What an insult!" There'll always be more hate to vent.

162 Athos  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:25:53pm

re: #154 njdhockeyfan

re: #149 Golem Akbar


re: #141 Maximu§

Charles, in 10 years these radical parties mentioned in this thread will be in power, because the present governments have turned their backs on their own citizens.
I'm no fan of these people, but we're looking at the future of Europe.

Maximu§
3/11 ACR


Europe seems to have a long history of turning to fascism when things get rough.

Then the US & UK always seem to come and bail the out. I hope we have a strong enough leader, when that time comes, that has the testicles to save the world again.


Many times we have been fortunate enough to have the right leader at the right place at the right time - but at somepoint, that luck may run out. We could use a leader like that now - but none are visible......

163 guftafs  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:26:33pm

re: #156 konservo

re: #151 guftafs

re: #144 infidel4ever


They're pandering for support, just like they did with the SIOE.

Yep.

164 Rodan[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:27:29pm
165 Meremortal  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:27:58pm

The enemy of my enemy is an asshole.

Suddenly I know how Ron Paul feels.

No, on second thought I don't. If they donate any money to me, it's going straight to a Zionist charity!

166 Golem Akbar  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:28:10pm

re: #154 njdhockeyfan

re: #149 Golem Akbar


re: #141 Maximu§

Charles, in 10 years these radical parties mentioned in this thread will be in power, because the present governments have turned their backs on their own citizens.
I'm no fan of these people, but we're looking at the future of Europe.

Maximu§
3/11 ACR


Europe seems to have a long history of turning to fascism when things get rough.

Then the US & UK always seem to come and bail the out. I hope we have a strong enough leader, when that time comes, that has the testicles to save the world again.


Amen that. I hope we have leaders with the testicles to finish this war in Iraq, then maybe we'll be able to help Europe. Otherwise....[I don't want to think about the otherwise]

167 Orde  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:28:51pm

re: #115 Spenser (with an S)

re: #100 Orde
As a theologically conservative Christian

Me too, but what has James Dobson said or done that ticked you off?
/Really asking, I haven't heard.

I have an extremely long list of grievances against Dobson (head of "Focus on the Family") and how he's hurt the Body of Christ, but for purposes of this thread, I'm referring to his key role in giving cause for outsiders to blaspheme the name of Christ ("Christofascists" and all the other aspersions) due to the making of poor alliances (including with white supremacists) in order to advance his political agenda.

I realize that each member of the Body of Christ has different areas of expertise or functions (some are toes, some are hearts, some are mouths, etc), and that it's perfectly fine for someone to "focus on the family" if it also advances focusing on Christ or at least doesn't work against it, but quite frankly Dobson's much too focused on politics. ("what does it profit a man to gain the world if he loses his soul?")

168 Rodan[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:29:14pm
169 njdhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:29:22pm

re: #162 Athos

re: #154 njdhockeyfan


re: #149 Golem Akbar

re: #141 Maximu§

Charles, in 10 years these radical parties mentioned in this thread will be in power, because the present governments have turned their backs on their own citizens.
I'm no fan of these people, but we're looking at the future of Europe.
Maximu§
3/11 ACR

Europe seems to have a long history of turning to fascism when things get rough.

Then the US & UK always seem to come and bail the out. I hope we have a strong enough leader, when that time comes, that has the testicles to save the world again.

Many times we have been fortunate enough to have the right leader at the right place at the right time - but at somepoint, that luck may run out. We could use a leader like that now - but none are visible......

I agree. When I read stuff like this, the hair stands up on the back of my neck...

A trip to Norway has reinforced Keith Ellison's support for a bill that would create a Cabinet-level Department of Peace.

The Democratic congressman, who represents Minnesota's Fifth District with its strong Norwegian heritage, spent last week in the Scandinavian country to learn about peace and justice issues. The trip was paid for by the House Financial Services Committee, on which he sits.

In an interview from Oslo last week, Ellison said he would reemphasize the importance of the bill, authored by Rep. Dennis Kucinich, D-Ohio.

170 bbcrackmonkey  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:29:37pm

If you've ever read stuff by the BNP online you'd know that they are practically the British version of American Stormfronters and other Neo-Nazis. They're just more focused on hating Islam than they are Jews. They use anti-Islam sentiment to attract people in the same way that Pat Buchanan uses anti-immigration sentiment. If you listen to them talk about Jews behind closed doors it's all the same, though.

171 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:29:58pm

re: #168 Rodan

I also think he's a "unitarian".

172 konservo  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:30:00pm

re: #168 Rodan

re: #156 konservo

Justiceforall is an Olbyloon.

LOL! How do you figure?

173 Rodan[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:30:22pm
174 Charles  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:30:37pm

I'm respecting Wilders more now that it's clear he's staying away from these types.

Of course, I always did respect him for his magnificent hair.

175 Rodan[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:31:15pm
176 Catttt  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:31:47pm

re: #174 Charles

I'm respecting Wilders more now that it's clear he's staying away from these types.

Of course, I always did respect him for his magnificent hair.

Totally in agreement - even about the hair.

I'm glad there are some sane honcho types left in Europe.

177 MarshallOnellion  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:31:53pm

Re: #159

Sorry, disagree. Partial list of groups not Western, nor Caucasian, that link ethnicity and race to culture/civilization:
Russia, China, Japan, Korea, Turkey, Iran, most of sub-Saharan Africa (where the link is typically to tribe, a subdivision of ethnicity or race). The Turks, the Arabs, and the Iranian include a great deal of mutual dislike that transcends religion, to cite another instance.

178 Iron Fist  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:32:06pm

re: #141 Maximu§,

I am afraid you are right. Part of the problem is that the L³eft has spent decades screaming Fascist! where there was no fascisism, so when the real thing shows up, one is skeptical when the usual suspects say their usual tripe.

Only this time it is for real.

It doesn't help that the L³eftists are completely in bed with the Islamofascists. I can understand the despair that leads the people in Europe to say "Why not? If it's going to be bad, at least let it be bad for my enemies". The problem is we are not where it has to be bad. Or at least not this bad. Respectable anti-jihadi Parties could still form.

This step (and the embracing of the neo-nazis that we've seen so far on this side of the pond) make that less likely.

179 infidel4ever  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:32:18pm

re: #153 Sharmuta

re: #144 infidel4ever

This article Killgore linked says Wilders was not there.


No, no, he has nothing to do with Vlaams Belang or their ilk.

180 Rodan[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:32:50pm
181 Silhouette  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:32:54pm

re: #161 guftafs

There'll always be more hate to vent.

Star-bellied Sneetches.

182 konservo  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:33:17pm

re: #173 Rodan

Oh, so he's a bona fide Olbyloon.

183 Rodan[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:33:42pm
184 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:34:01pm
185 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:34:10pm

re: #179 infidel4ever

re: #153 Sharmuta

re: #144 infidel4ever

This article Killgore linked says Wilders was not there.


No, no, he has nothing to do with Vlaams Belang or their ilk.

It seems to me he's taken up the mantle left by Pim Fortuyn.

186 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:34:20pm

re: #174 Charles

I'm respecting Wilders more now that it's clear he's staying away from these types.

Of course, I always did respect him for his magnificent hair.

It's too bad he doesn't live here, because he'd be great as an SNL guest star, or as a target for impersonation.

Personally I believe The Hair is the source of his power.

187 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:35:03pm
188 Athos  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:35:14pm

re: #184 buzzsawmonkey

Might as well rename the State Department to Department of Peace. As for the suggestion on renaming the DOD - faster please.

189 justiceforall  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:35:34pm

re: #158 Rodan

You are really obsessed with Keith Olbermann. It's actually a little strange.

190 nolocon  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:35:35pm

re: #177 MarshallOnellion

Re: #159
Sorry, disagree. Partial list of groups not Western, nor Caucasian, that link ethnicity and race to culture/civilization:
Russia, China, Japan, Korea, Turkey, Iran, most of sub-Saharan Africa (where the link is typically to tribe, a subdivision of ethnicity or race). The Turks, the Arabs, and the Iranian include a great deal of mutual dislike that transcends religion, to cite another instance.


I think you misread my post, specifically last sentence (emphasis on "distinguishable").

191 konservo  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:35:48pm

re: #178 Iron Fist

It sounds like you've been reading, or would enjoy, Jonah Goldberg's Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left, From Mussolini to the Politics of Meaning

192 Golem Akbar  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:36:08pm

re: #170 bbcrackmonkey

If you've ever read stuff by the BNP online you'd know that they are practically the British version of American Stormfronters and other Neo-Nazis. They're just more focused on hating Islam than they are Jews. They use anti-Islam sentiment to attract people in the same way that Pat Buchanan uses anti-immigration sentiment. If you listen to them talk about Jews behind closed doors it's all the same, though.

I'm not surprised. Charles has also pointed this out, lately. Atlas and a few others, Jews, are falling for these fascist's lies since they seem to be so anti-Islamofascist. Of course they are anti-Islamo-fascist, and anti-semitic and anti-democratic, as well.

I hope Europeans wake up to these dangers before it's all over. Yeah, the Moslems may get tossed out of Europe, but so will many many others. And with them go the democratic Moslem reformers (who could bring about real change in their religion) and everyone else opposed to fascism.

193 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:36:27pm
194 ploome hineni[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:37:12pm
195 njdhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:37:21pm

re: #189 justiceforall

re: #158 Rodan

You are really obsessed with Keith Olbermann. It's actually a little strange.

I have never seen more than 5 minutes of Keith Olbermann's pathetic show on MSNBC. Five minutes was enough.

:)

196 Rodan[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:37:42pm
197 MandyManners  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:38:09pm

re: #189 justiceforall

re: #158 Rodan

You are really obsessed with Keith Olbermann. It's actually a little strange.

Olberman's a fucking tool.

198 justiceforall  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:38:24pm

re: #164 Rodan

What do you mean "nope?" Are you saying Hitler did NOT align with Japan or the Mufti of Jerusalem? Are you saying the U.S. did not support the mujadeen (sp?) in Afghanistan against the Soviets? Are you saying Chavez does not align with Iran?

199 Rodan[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:38:31pm
200 savage_nation[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:39:15pm
201 justiceforall  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:39:17pm

re: #173 Rodan

I think I said I didn't watch him. When did I say that? Please link to the comment where I say that. Thanks.

202 nolocon  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:39:31pm

re: #189 justiceforall

re: #158 Rodan
You are really obsessed with Keith Olbermann. It's actually a little strange.


I don't see him as obsessed.
Olbermann is the oracle of the fanatic, veinpopping, hate-filled Moonbat Left.
The Moonbats unquestioningly and mindlessly regurgigate his bile.
He's a legitimate target of criticism.

203 guftafs  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:39:33pm

re: #159 nolocon

re: #134 Silhouette



Ironically western caucasians are virtually the ONLY ethnic/racial group on Planet Earth that believes ethnicity and race should be considered distinguishable to culture/civilization.

Except certain western caucasian, like nolocon, who fall outside western culture, thereby disproving what he just said.

/sheesh, that's dumb!

204 Andrew Ian Dodge  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:39:42pm

Yeah, the weird part is the Euro-Nazis are Anti-Islamist.
The American Nazis are Pro-Islamist.
They have their feet in both camps.
Something is up and doesn't smell right.

And the irony, of course, is that proper Islamist admire and respect the original NAZIS and Adolf Hitler for what they did and believed in.

205 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:39:44pm

The spread of islamofascism must be stopped, but it cannot and must not be done by embracing eurofascism.

Embracing the darkside to defeat the darkside (ala Luke Skywalker) only works in fictional stories.

206 Rodan[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:39:55pm
207 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:40:35pm

re: #187 buzzsawmonkey

re: #186 Pawn of the Oppressor


Personally I believe The Hair is the source of his power.

Samson!

Zionist Hair Rays!

JEEEEEEEEEEEEEWS!

/Achmed al-Kirk

Seriously, there's a lot of fun to be had with is hair.

- Does he have a stylist? And if so, what does he tell the stylist? "See, right now it's more of a whoosh. I need it like (Geert makes vacuum noise)". You follow?"

- Can he keep things in there, like fancy ladies of the 17th century?

- Would he consider moonlighting in a jazz fusion band? And if so, what brand of shades would he wear?

And now, we present Geert Wilders and the Dutch Delights...

208 Silhouette  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:40:45pm

nolocon,

I understood what you said!

209 justiceforall  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:40:57pm

re: #196 Rodan

Your tirade is amazingly funny. Now that you've gotten that out of your system, can you please make a real argument. Thanks in advance.

210 Golem Akbar  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:42:00pm

Looks like Stinky better get busy

211 justiceforall  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:42:01pm

re: #199 Rodan

I am? I had no idea?

212 Iron Fist  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:42:19pm

re: #154 njdhockeyfan,

I'm not so sure we will come bail them out this time, and Britain has her own Mohammedan problem to deal with. The new generation has witnessed the prior ingratituted for being saved by the people of Western Europe (the Axis of Weasels ring a bell?). If we go to war for Europe, look to the east where old foes seem truer allies.

213 Rodan[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:42:43pm
214 nolocon  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:42:52pm

re: #203 guftafs

re: #159 nolocon

re: #134 Silhouette

Ironically western caucasians are virtually the ONLY ethnic/racial group on Planet Earth that believes ethnicity and race should be considered distinguishable to culture/civilization.

Except certain western caucasian, like nolocon, who fall outside western culture, thereby disproving what he just said.
/sheesh, that's dumb!


How come MY troll has to be the illiterate one?

215 ciaospirit  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:43:02pm

re: #169 njdhockeyfan

A trip to Norway has reinforced Keith Ellison's support for a bill that would create a Cabinet-level Department of Peace.

The Democratic congressman, who represents Minnesota's Fifth District with its strong Norwegian heritage, spent last week in the Scandinavian country to learn about peace and justice issues. The trip was paid for by the House Financial Services Committee, on which he sits.

In an interview from Oslo last week, Ellison said he would reemphasize the importance of the bill, authored by Rep. Dennis Kucinich, D-Ohi

Taxdollars at work. Couldn't he have just done a conference call? Isn't he concerned about his carbon footprint? I wonder how much he cares about that strong Norwegian heritage when he's out stomping for CAIR.

216 Confuzed  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:43:11pm

Clicking on the pictures in Charle's #137 link, brings up descriptions. Here's one:

Belgian police officers arrest demonstrators 11 September 2007 during a forbidden demonstration against "the Islamisation of Europe" called by far-right organisations, 11 September 2007 in Brussels. Belgian police detained dozens of people for taking part in the protest which had been banned by city authorities.

Since the citizens aren't even allowed to hold demonstrations as their public safety can't ensured, I'm afraid extreme parties will gain in power.

/Maybe I'm incorrect as I'm going from memory, but I think the protests were banned as the officials couldn't guarantee the safety of the protestors.

217 justiceforall  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:43:47pm

re: #206 Rodan

Whoa, let's do a little spellchecking before you hit post. I know you are angry, but take a step back before you put your words online. Anyway, I never said it was strange, people align with people they might not like when it works for them politically.

218 bulwrk  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:44:07pm

re: #198 justiceforall

Are you saying the U.S. did not support the mujadeen (sp?) in Afghanistan against the Soviets?


The CIA covertly supplied some weapons to the mujahideen,the U.S never aligned itself with them as you stated in your original comment.

219 savage_nation[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:44:10pm
220 Rodan[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:44:32pm
221 Iron Fist  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:44:39pm

re: #191 konservo,

The next book on my list. I'm currently reading Koba the Dread about Stalin. They kind of fit. :-)

222 guftafs  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:44:45pm

re: #214 nolocon

re: #203 guftafs

How come MY troll has to be the illiterate one?

Sorry I lost you.

223 justiceforall  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:45:48pm

re: #213 Rodan

Hehe. Did Keith Olbermann tell you that?

Does the U.S. support Saudi Arabia, an Islamist regime? I know that Charles has been good about denouncing that. Do you as well? I hope so.

224 HillarysJockstrap  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:46:10pm

Are the trolls here trying to defend Vlaams Blaang, Keith Olbermann, or both? I can never keep it straight.

225 Catttt  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:46:11pm

re: #187 buzzsawmonkey

re: #186 Pawn of the Oppressor


Personally I believe The Hair is the source of his power.

Samson!

Zionist Hair Rays!

Yes, it's totally a Samson thing. I cannot believe I didn't realize that before now. :)

Here is an interesting pic of him - during the last campaign. Note his very alert bodyguards surrounding him at close quarters.

226 infidel4ever  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:47:30pm

re: #192 Golem Akbar

re: #170 bbcrackmonkey


I hope Europeans wake up to these dangers before it's all over.

There is no way I would like to live in a fascist Europe, but what is supposed to happen if we "wake up"? Do Belgians who don't want to live in a Caliphate have anybody else they can vote for, besides VB? We Dutch are lucky to have Wilders, at least we are not forced to make that choice.

And with them go the democratic Moslem reformers (who could bring about real change in their religion) and everyone else opposed to fascism.

Yeah right. Keep hoping for the democratic, integrated Muslim to come riding to the rescue on his white steed. The Muslims we are having problems with are second, third and even fourth generation Moroccans and Turks, born and bred in the Netherlands and preparing to turn my country into an Islamic sh*thole. No hope there. Just some wolves in sheep's clothing fooling the kuffar (Tariq Ramadan et al).

227 Yank in the EU  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:48:19pm

And there we go...

This is the answer to the question many were pondering after the Vlaams Belang controversy: will they get serious about rejecting racists, antisemites, Holocaust deniers, and racial nationalist ideology? So much for the hopeful 'watch and see' attitude with regard to the VB.

This is also the same message I have gotten reoeatedly from VBers in person: 'now is the time for everyone on the right -- even the neo-nazis and white nationalists -- to unite against Muslims in Europe; now is not the time question whether the white nationalist ideology is right or wrong. We can deal with small differences of ideology, later', they claim.

It's extremely sad and worrisome for decent folks here that these are the people (WN scum) who are speaking out most publically about the jihad. It's no small problem, unfortunately, particularly in Belgium where the VB have a good number of supporters.

228 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:48:29pm
229 yochanan  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:48:47pm

re: #110 Maximu§

correct time for jews to get out of euroland.

230 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:48:58pm

re: #218 bulwrk


The CIA covertly supplied some weapons to the mujahideen,the U.S never aligned itself with them as you stated in your original comment.

I understand the ISI did most of the distribution and support work, for that matter.

I'm not sure exactly how the Stingers got in, though.

231 justiceforall  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:48:58pm

re: #220 Rodan

I'd step back when you say "leftists," as it is one big united group. As you might know, the left is very fragmented group, with different sectarians often going at each other (please see a famous scene in Life of Brian, the Monty Python movie).

Sadly, some far-far left sectarians ignore the crimes of some Islamic movements and governments. Others, thankfully, do denouce them. I just wish those got more attention.

232 justiceforall  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:49:57pm

re: #219 savage_nation

You are pro-Islamist/Keith Olbermann-lover for saying that!

233 Yank in the EU  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:50:35pm

typo: repeatedly

234 nolocon  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:51:02pm

re: #222 guftafs

re: #214 nolocon

re: #203 guftafs
How come MY troll has to be the illiterate one?

Sorry I lost you.


I don't mind insults, but I prefer them to be coherent.

235 justiceforall  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:51:52pm

re: #224 HillarysJockstrap

In my case (I'm guessing that because I've been called a troll so many times you are referring to me in part), I actually stand against Vlaams Blaang (and all racists/anti-Semites/fascists/bigots for that matter). In the case of Olbermann, I know very little about him, other than Rodan seems to have some sort of obsession with him.

236 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:51:56pm
237 savage_nation[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:52:05pm
238 infidel4ever  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:52:49pm

OT but fun:

"Here is the Washington Post's Mensa Invitational, which once again asked readers to take any word from the dictionary, alter it by adding,
subtracting, or changing one letter, and supply a new definition. The 2006 winners are:

1) Cashtration (n.): The act of buying (or building) a house, which
renders the subject financially impotent for an indefinite period of time.
2) Ignoranus: A person who's both stupid and an asshole.
3) Intaxication: Euphoria at getting a tax refund, which lasts until you
realize that it was your money to start with.
4) Reintarnation: Coming back to life as a hillbilly.
5) Bozone (n.): The substance surrounding stupid people that stops bright
ideas from penetrating. The bozone layer, unfortunately, shows little sign
of breaking down in the near future.
6) Foreploy: Any misrepresentation about yourself for the purpose of
getting laid.
7) Giraffiti: Vandalism spray-painted very, very high.
8) Sarchasm: The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person
who doesn't get it.
9) Inoculatte: To take coffee intravenously when you are running late.
10) Hipatitis: Terminal coolness.
11) Osteopornosis: A degenerate disease. (This one got extra credit.)
12) Karmageddon: It's when everybody is sending off all these really bad
vibes, and then the Earth explodes and it's a serious bummer.
13) Decafalon: (n.): The grueling event of getting through the day
consuming only things that are good for you.
14) Glibido: All talk and no action.
15) Dopeler Effect: The tendency of stupid ideas to seem smarter when
they come at you rapidly.
16) Arachnoleptic Fit (n.): The frantic dance performed just after you've
accidentally walked through a spider web.
17) Beelzebug (n.): Satan in the form of a mosquito, that gets into your
bedroom at three in the morning and cannot be cast out.
18) Caterpallor (n.): The color you turn after finding half a worm in the
fruit you're eating.

239 Silhouette  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:53:05pm

re: #224 HillarysJockstrap

Are the trolls here trying to defend Vlaams Blaang, Keith Olbermann, or both? I can never keep it straight.

Just one trying to paint all anti-jihad sentiment with the nazi brush.

Ironic, given that the whole point of this thread and the recurring effort of Charles' is to say that, no, one doesn't have to partner with racists to fight jihad.

240 justiceforall  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:53:12pm

re: #237 savage_nation

Sarcasm doesn't come across well over blog threads. Sorry.

241 infidel4ever  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:53:40pm

And:

The Washington Post has also published the winning submissions to its
yearly contest in which readers are asked to supply alternate meanings for common words. And the winners are:

1) Coffee, (n.) the person upon whom one coughs.
2) Flabbergasted, (adj.) appalled by discovering how much weight one has
gained.
3) Abdicate, (v.) to give up all hope of ever having a flat stomach.
4) Esplanade, (v.) to attempt an explanation while drunk.
5) Willy-Nilly, (adj.) impotent.
6) Negligent, (adj.) absentmindedly answering the door when wearing only
a nightgown.
7) Lymph, (v.) to walk with a lisp.
8) Gargoyle, (n.) olive-flavored mouthwash.
9) Flatulence, (n.) emergency vehicle that picks up someone who has been
run over by a steamroller.
10) Balderdash, ( n.) a rapidly receding hairline.
11) Testicle, (n.) a humorous question on an exam.
12) Rectitude, (n.) the formal, dignified bearing
adopted by proctologists.
13) Pokemon, (n.) a Rastafarian proctologist.
14) Oyster, (n.) a person who sprinkles his
conversation with Yiddishisms.
15) Frisbeetarianism, (n.) the belief that, after
death, the soul flies up onto the roof and gets stuck there.
16) Circumvent, (n.) an opening in the front of boxer
shorts worn by Jewish men."

242 guftafs  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:54:03pm

re: #234 nolocon

re: #222 guftafs


re: #214 nolocon

re: #203 guftafs
How come MY troll has to be the illiterate one?


Sorry I lost you.


I don't mind insults, but I prefer them to be coherent.

Did I mess up my grammar again?

243 Querent  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:54:27pm

|_|)
here is a drink for savage (from a dead thread i got to a bit too late)

244 savage_nation[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:54:29pm
245 savage_nation[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:54:49pm
246 bulwrk  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:55:55pm

re: #237 savage_nation

justiceforall is a troll who believes that any deviation from the company line on this blog will result in you're beheading.

247 HillarysJockstrap  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:56:45pm

re: #235 justiceforall

re: #224 HillarysJockstrap
In my case (I'm guessing that because I've been called a troll so many times you are referring to me in part), I actually stand against Vlaams Blaang (and all racists/anti-Semites/fascists/bigots for that matter). In the case of Olbermann, I know very little about him, other than Rodan seems to have some sort of obsession with him.


Actually, I wasn't referring to you. Though, I don't understand your comment about Rodan. How are you offended if Rodan wants to target Olbermann?

248 savage_nation[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:57:14pm
249 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:57:16pm
250 justiceforall  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:57:25pm

re: #246 bulwrk

Please. You can do better than that.

251 justiceforall  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:59:03pm

re: #247 HillarysJockstrap

Oh I'm not offended. It's just ever time I say something he's like "You are a crazy Olbermann-loving nut," which I just find strange because I've never said a word about supporting Olbermann (I've never watched his show/segment/whatever it is).

252 ciaospirit  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 2:59:22pm

re: #226 infidel4ever

The Muslims we are having problems with are second, third and even fourth generation Moroccans and Turks, born and bred in the Netherlands

Many people don't realize it, but that's a big problem in the U.S. and showing them the beauty of freedom and democracy hasn't made a dent. On the other hand, my grandfather couldn't wait to become a citizen. As soon as he (1st generation Italian) got his citizenship, he considered himself forever and always an American first. Same with the next three generations he spawned. That is the difference.

253 bulwrk  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:00:18pm

re: #250 justiceforall

I think my comment was direct and to the point,I am not a man of many words.

254 haakondahl  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:00:48pm

Open Memo to Charles Johnson:

Thank you for your steadfast refusal to buckle one way or the other. The moral position of America, and we have never surrendered the moral high ground except in the minds of leftist journalists, depends upon people like you threading the narrows between the Islamic Fascists on the one hand, and the Nazi Fascists on the other. No doubt, at its core the issue hardly seems narrow--either one is a fascist or one isn't--but look at how many of our former friends (fjordman, et al) and one-time heroes (Ahem, Pam) have not been able to see their way through.

Moral leadership rests upon always being able to connect your current or local actions to your own morally sound, permanent, guiding principles. Always.

I don't get around to post here much anymore, what with new jobs and firewalls, but I remain a committed lizard, and want to draw some attention to the appallingly rare sort of community leadership you have provided. It may just be blogging from common sense to you, but in this new media, common sense is an uncommon virtue.

Thank you. Please keep up the Good Work.

255 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:01:36pm
256 Yank in the EU  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:01:40pm

Trying to find out if the German party is the NPD, who are genuine Nazi sympathizers.

257 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:01:44pm
258 HillarysJockstrap  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:02:17pm

re: #251 justiceforall

re: #247 HillarysJockstrap
Oh I'm not offended. It's just ever time I say something he's like "You are a crazy Olbermann-loving nut," which I just find strange because I've never said a word about supporting Olbermann (I've never watched his show/segment/whatever it is).


If you know nothing about Olbermann, then for all you know being accused of being an Olbermann lover might be a compliment. Think positive!

259 Frank_Mtl  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:02:32pm

Just for the record, I posted that spinoff link as I thought anyone reading it would be as dismayed as I was reading it. Obviously not in appreciation of it. Also, I realized after the fact that it was a bad idea to link to that trash site. I apologize to anyone offended by that posting.

260 Maximu§  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:02:41pm

OT

Michael Savage is interviewing Sylvester Stallone today. The show is about to start!
910 KNEW

Maximu§
3/11 ACR

261 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:03:20pm

re: #256 Yank in the EU

See #13 too- I wondered if it wasn't this newer party.

262 nikis-knight  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:04:01pm

re: #177 MarshallOnellion

Re: #159

Sorry, disagree. Partial list of groups not Western, nor Caucasian, that link ethnicity and race to culture/civilization:
Russia, China, Japan, Korea, Turkey, Iran, most of sub-Saharan Africa (where the link is typically to tribe, a subdivision of ethnicity or race). The Turks, the Arabs, and the Iranian include a great deal of mutual dislike that transcends religion, to cite another instance.

reread #159, he says Western civ is the only one NOT to link race and culture. I'm not sure, there may be exceptions, but I suspect he (and you) are right.

263 Yank in the EU  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:04:21pm

Haider's Freedom Party of Austria were there, who are hardcore racial nationalist.

264 nyc redneck  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:04:33pm

i wonder what we will do if (when) islam reaches the tipping point here. ( i'd like to think we wouldn't need nazis to combat the islamists.)

265 alteredbeat  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:04:38pm

I certainly hope they are successful in their efforts.

266 mean Gene  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:04:46pm

All this talk about Keith O. of MSNBC reminds me; I had set the TV to allow that channel thinking I would catch the "debate" the other night.
Then, I missed the "debate" and still have MS....on my remote.
I just took it off.
Thanks Rodan.

267 Golem Akbar  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:05:13pm

Paging Doctor Stinky, paging Doctor Stinky.

268 David IV of Georgia  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:05:26pm

OT: Shameless plug for sympathy from stangers:

A deadline got moved up and I just found out I get to work 12, possibly 19, or 26 days straight. Yea! At least I gat paid by the hour.

269 Boondock St. Bender  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:05:38pm

re: #198 justiceforall

to be honest,tarring the muj.with the same brush is like saying "all americans this or all americans that"it's not that simple,there were muj. who were patriots for afganistan,and there were muj. who fought for allah.

don't believe the hype.

270 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:05:42pm

Sarkozy kisses ass, seething ensues.....
Sarkozy sparks French debate over God and faith

In Riyadh on Monday, he hailed Islam as "one of the greatest and most beautiful civilisations the world has known" and described his Saudi hosts as rulers who "appeal to the basic values of Islam to combat the fundamentalism that negates them".

His praise for a kingdom that enforces and propagates a strict version of Islam, during a visit aimed at securing lucrative export contracts, was the last straw for his critics.

271 Athos  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:06:01pm

re: #264 nyc redneck

i wonder what we will do if (when) islam reaches the tipping point here. ( i'd like to think we wouldn't need nazis to combat the islamists.)

Unfortunately, the way the left is here and now, we'll be called nazi's for fighting them.....but then, they do that now even when they are the ones standing closer to the nazi ideology.

272 justiceforall  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:06:17pm

re: #258 HillarysJockstrap

Ha. Looking on the bright side! I'll remember that.

273 Yank in the EU  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:06:43pm

re: #261 Sharmuta


Ah, that's interesting. Thank you. I wonder if they have distanced themselves from the neo-Nazi NPD? Because the latter in the past have actually supported radical Islam against the Jews.

274 justiceforall  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:07:09pm

re: #253 bulwrk

Or a man of spaces after commas, for that matter.

275 1SG(ret)  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:07:10pm

re: #264 nyc redneck

I would think not! Troops may be old, but never ready to give up the fight.

Top

276 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:08:16pm

re: #259 Frank_Mtl

I think that's a good link.

277 obscured by clouds  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:08:54pm
"We are not opposed to freedom of religion but we don't want Muslims to impose their way of life and traditions over here because much of it is not compatible with our way of life," Vlaams Belang's Filip Dewinter told Radio Netherlands Worldwide. "We can't accept headscarves in our schools, forced marriages and the ritual slaughter of animals."

I'm far from being a white supremicist but there's not much to disagree with in this quote, imo.

278 Catttt  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:08:54pm

re: #250 justiceforall

re: #246 bulwrk

Please. You can do better than that.

"People really appreciate not being condescended to."
Matt Groening

The reverse is also true - especially when the source of the condescension is - well - a doofus.

279 Frank_Mtl  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:09:29pm

re: #276 Killgore Trout
Thank you for making me feel a bit less bad about it.

280 infidel4ever  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:10:26pm

re: #252 ciaospirit

re: #226 infidel4ever


The Muslims we are having problems with are second, third and even fourth generation Moroccans and Turks, born and bred in the Netherlands

Many people don't realize it, but that's a big problem in the U.S. and showing them the beauty of freedom and democracy hasn't made a dent. On the other hand, my grandfather couldn't wait to become a citizen. As soon as he (1st generation Italian) got his citizenship, he considered himself forever and always an American first. Same with the next three generations he spawned. That is the difference.

And another point nobody ever makes is: if even those Muslims that are born in and grow up in Western countries choose their backward religion over our freedoms, wealth and progress, why do we even think we have a snowball's chance in hell to make any Islamic country in the Middle East or anywhere else for that matter into a modern, functioning democracy? As long as there is Islam, there will be trouble with it. Ban it from our countries. Wanna be a Muslim? Fine. Do it somewhere else.

281 bulwrk  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:10:27pm

re: #274 justiceforall

We all can't be as brilliant and quick witted as I'm sure you think you are.

282 nyc redneck  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:10:32pm

re: #271 Athos

re: #264 nyc redneck

i wonder what we will do if (when) islam reaches the tipping point here. ( i'd like to think we wouldn't need nazis to combat the islamists.)

Unfortunately, the way the left is here and now, we'll be called nazi's for fighting them.....but then, they do that now even when they are the ones standing closer to the nazi ideology.

who cares what they call us as they shriek from their hiding places while we protect our country.

283 justiceforall  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:11:52pm

re: #278 Catttt

Yeah, people also don't like being called an Islamist when they clearly are not.

284 Athos  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:11:59pm

re: #282 nyc redneck

re: #271 Athos


re: #264 nyc redneck

i wonder what we will do if (when) islam reaches the tipping point here. ( i'd like to think we wouldn't need nazis to combat the islamists.)

Unfortunately, the way the left is here and now, we'll be called nazi's for fighting them.....but then, they do that now even when they are the ones standing closer to the nazi ideology.

who cares what they call us as they shriek from their hiding places while we protect our country.

The challenge is - they will do what they can to prevent us from protecting the country.

285 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:12:09pm

re: #273 Yank in the EU

Well- the money quote is here:

The methods of the anti-mosque movement have been studied by far-right groups in other countries, like Austria's FPO ("Austrian Freedom Party") and Belgium's Vlaams Belang ("Flemish Interest") party.

So, I'd love to know the other parties involved. Let us know if you find anything.

286 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:12:54pm
287 haakondahl  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:13:32pm

re: #270 Killgore Trout

Sarkozy kisses ass, seething ensues.....


This would seem to be the month year for the return of the Clinton Foreign Policy: International Public Fellatio.

288 nyc redneck  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:13:59pm

re: #284 Athos

re: #282 nyc redneck

re: #271 Athos


re: #264 nyc redneck


i wonder what we will do if (when) islam reaches the tipping point here. ( i'd like to think we wouldn't need nazis to combat the islamists.)


Unfortunately, the way the left is here and now, we'll be called nazi's for fighting them.....but then, they do that now even when they are the ones standing closer to the nazi ideology.


who cares what they call us as they shriek from their hiding places while we protect our country.

The challenge is - they will do what they can to prevent us from protecting the country.

we will prevail over them. don't doubt that.

289 threecoloursblue  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:14:02pm

re: #196 Rodan

Linky?

290 Just_A_Grunt  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:14:15pm

OT: The 2 police officers killed yesterday in Atlanta were also veterans. One a former Marine the other Army. The Army guy had tours of duty of in Bosnia and Afghanistan only to die on the streets at home. Maybe the NY Times will be doing a story about this soon.

291 Diamond Bullet  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:15:12pm
In Riyadh on Monday, he hailed Islam as "one of the greatest and most beautiful civilisations the world has known" and described his Saudi hosts as rulers who "appeal to the basic values of Islam to combat the fundamentalism that negates them".

I know what those words mean, but those sentences make no sense.

292 Orde  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:15:20pm

re: #270 Killgore Trout
I suspect Sarkozy'll manage to get more criticism than the whisper we heard this week after Bush Proclaimed Jan 16th Religious Freedom Day -- from Saudi Arabia!

293 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:15:24pm
294 Carridine  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:16:28pm

re: #257 buzzsawmonkey

ribbah...

RIBBAH!

295 Catttt  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:16:49pm

re: #283 justiceforall

re: #278 Catttt

Yeah, people also don't like being called an Islamist when they clearly are not.

Subtley are-not-U, I see.

If you would just say what you mean, then say "I disagree," and say why, you would get a lot more traction on your arguments. If it is more important to pimp yourself as right and smart, then you will perhaps derive personal satisfaction, but that's about it.

Usually, people who feel small try to make others feel small, so that they can feel larger. My daddy called that "trying to make up for a size five shoe."

296 Orde  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:17:01pm

re: #291 Diamond Bullet

I know what those words mean, but those sentences make no sense.


Ask Rudy Giuliani, he pretty much said the same thing.

297 Yank in the EU  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:17:17pm

re: #285 Sharmuta

Yes, I wish I had extra time to be investigating this new coalition. I would not be surprised if the new German party includes members of the NPD who magically had a change of heart from being against the Jews at all cost to now being against Muslims at all cost.

298 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:18:09pm
299 ciaospirit  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:18:09pm

re: #270 Killgore Trout

Sarkozy kisses ass, seething ensues.....
Sarkozy sparks French debate over God and faith

In Riyadh on Monday, he hailed Islam as "one of the greatest and most beautiful civilisations the world has known" and described his Saudi hosts as rulers who "appeal to the basic values of Islam to combat the fundamentalism that negates them"

Islam is a civilisation? Good, since it's not a religion, take away it's special religious status.

The twice-divorced president defines himself as a "cultural Catholic", an infrequent churchgoer who says he values the moral and social role that religion can play in society.

"Someone who believes is someone who hopes," he said in the speech in Rome's Basilica of Saint John Lateran. "It is in the republic's interest to have many men and women who hope."

Even if they hope to kill your appeasing ass, Mr. Sarkozy.

300 Athos  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:18:54pm

re: #288 nyc redneck

I know. It might seem daunting, but to not prevail is far far worse.

301 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:19:13pm

re: #287 haakondahl

re: #292 Orde

It's so embarrassing to watch the leaders of the free world grovel to the Wahabi despots.

302 Catttt  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:19:21pm

re: #297 Yank in the EU

re: #285 Sharmuta

Yes, I wish I had extra time to be investigating this new coalition. I would not be surprised if the new German party includes members of the NPD who magically had a change of heart from being against the Jews at all cost to now being against Muslims at all cost.

The bottom line for them, imho, is they need to have their foot on someone else's neck. The owner of the neck changes, but the desire to have one's foot solidly on a neck remains.

303 haakondahl  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:19:41pm

re: #293 buzzsawmonkey

re: #287 haakondahl


This would seem to be the month year for the return of the Clinton Foreign Policy: International Public Fellatio.

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Fellatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

--William Shake"spear"

"How many cannon do you mount?"
--Fellatio Hornblower, R.N.

304 Carridine  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:20:21pm

re: #298 buzzsawmonkey

Sir, yes Sir!

Guilty as charged...

/send me an email, I'll tell you my "You're all under arrest!" story

305 Catttt  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:20:43pm

Oh - turning into a penis thread, I see. :)

306 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:21:04pm
307 haakondahl  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:21:29pm

re: #305 Catttt

Oh - turning into a penis thread, I see. :)

Just trying to improve the level of intercourse around here.

308 Silhouette  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:21:30pm

re: #305 Catttt

Don't worry. These discussions are usually short and play themselves out quickly.

309 jcm  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:21:49pm

re: #290 Just_A_Grunt

I saw the story about the fallen officers yesterday, at that time they hadn't been identified.

It's been a while since I've been as pissed off as that Slimes story pissed me off.

NY Slimes; no mass murder in Stalin's Russia, our returning troops are out of control killing machines.

No one at the Slimes is fit to lick the latrines of our Military. *spit*

310 HillarysJockstrap  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:22:02pm

Words of wisdom for VB and its new-found allies. From Pope Pius XI's address to 1937 Germany (Mit Brenneder Sorge):

"Whoever exalts race, or the people, or the State, or a particular form of State, or the depositories of power, or any other fundamental value of the human community—however necessary and honorable be their function in worldly things—whoever raises these notions above their standard value and divinizes them to an idolatrous level, distorts and perverts an order of the world planned and created by God; he is far from the true faith in God and from the concept of life which that faith upholds"
"This God, this Sovereign Master, has issued commandments whose value is independent of time and space, country and race. As God's sun shines on every human face so His law knows neither privilege nor exception. Rulers and subjects, crowned and uncrowned, rich and poor are equally subject to His word. From the fullness of the Creators' right there naturally arises the fullness of His right to be obeyed by individuals and communities, whoever they are. This obedience permeates all branches of activity in which moral values claim harmony with the law of God, and pervades all integration of the ever-changing laws of man into the immutable laws of God."
"None but superficial minds could stumble into concepts of a national God, of a national religion; or attempt to lock within the frontiers of a single people, within the narrow limits of a single race, God, the Creator of the universe, King and Legislator of all nations before whose immensity they are 'as a drop of a bucket' (Isaiah xI, 15)."

311 Yank in the EU  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:22:10pm

re: #302 Catttt

Indeed, see the claim of Der Spiegel:

Right-wing radicals in Cologne are gaining traction with Germany's first anti-Islamic party. The German domestic intelligence agency is alarmed -- but so are traditional neo-Nazis, who may have to shift their tactics to compete.

[Link: www.spiegel.de...]

(ht: sharmuta)

312 Amillennialist  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:22:17pm
'Nazis against Islamisation' would be more accurate.

Good.

Let history's two greatest mass-murderers of Jews fight it out amongst themselves.

We need division among the enemies of Western Civilization, and unity among those defending it (Charles, Gates of Vienna, et al, that means you).

313 Neo Con since 9-11  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:22:34pm

re: #306 song_and_dance_man

Cooking Huckabee style

314 haakondahl  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:22:46pm

re: #309 jcm

No one at the Slimes is fit to lick the latrines of our Military. *spit*

Ah, but then, who is?

315 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:23:06pm

re: #297 Yank in the EU

Yeah- I wish I could read German, but I luckily found that article a few weeks ago, and they suck in my head because of the mention of vb. I really wouldn't be surprised if this was the party- vb was already interested in them for the anti-mosque sentiment and here we are already.

316 threecoloursblue  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:24:06pm

re: #301 Killgore Trout

Thats........ Wahabi despots with oil and money to you; and don't forget it.

317 nyc redneck  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:24:57pm

re: #270 Killgore Trout

Sarkozy kisses ass, seething ensues.....
Sarkozy sparks French debate over God and faith


In Riyadh on Monday, he hailed Islam as "one of the greatest and most beautiful civilisations the world has known" and described his Saudi hosts as rulers who "appeal to the basic values of Islam to combat the fundamentalism that negates them".His praise for a kingdom that enforces and propagates a strict version of Islam,

which required him to leave his girlfriend behind.

318 Yank in the EU  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:25:01pm

re: #312 Amillennialist

Unity with the white nationalists and neo-Nazis would mean the death of the anti-jihad cause and decent conservatives in general.

319 jcm  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:25:06pm

re: #314 haakondahl

re: #309 jcm

No one at the Slimes is fit to lick the latrines of our Military. *spit*

Ah, but then, who is?

Hah! LOL!

320 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:25:26pm
321 Yank in the EU  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:25:53pm

re: #315 Sharmuta

I can read German, we'll see. Have to get to work ATM.

322 HillarysJockstrap  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:26:04pm

re: #301 Killgore Trout

re: #287 haakondahlre: #292 Orde
It's so embarrassing to watch the leaders of the free world grovel to the Wahabi despots.


Yeah, but George got a nifty sword outta the deal, so he figures it's a wash.

323 ecor1  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:27:16pm

is this a real problem?

324 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:27:43pm

re: #321 Yank in the EU

Have a good day at work. If nothing else- this goes to show what quick learners vb is.

325 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:27:56pm

re: #323 ecor1

is this a real problem?

Yes.

326 infidel Alan  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:28:21pm

So the Huckster used to eat fried squirrel cooked in a popcorn popper in his dorm room. Dumb to talk about it. Presidential all the way.

327 Catttt  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:28:30pm

re: #307 haakondahl

re: #305 Catttt


Oh - turning into a penis thread, I see. :)

Just trying to improve the level of intercourse around here.

If it will help, I can link the Gallery of Intact Penises in Art again.

328 Lizard by the Bay  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:28:31pm

As I understand it, the primary goal of the VB is to have the Flemish half of the country secede from the rest of Belgium to form the independent nation of Flanders (okaly dokaly). They have hitched their wagon to the anti-jihad movement to get support from other Europeans who would otherwise have no dog in their fight to divide their own nation.

Forget the fact that their roots go back to Nazi-ism. Sadly, little that has to do with power in Europe doesn't. Too many people then saw the rising power of the Third Reich as an opportunity to enhance their own power. More interesting today is why so many conservative parties in Europe want to align themselves with what is essentially a rebellious movement within Belgium.

329 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:28:44pm
330 Amillennialist  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:29:11pm

re: #283 justiceforall

If you call yourself "Muslim," you are confessing your fealty to a god and prophet who command the enslavement or death of all non-Muslims who refuse to convert.

"Islamist" is just politically-correct newspeak intended to deceive the ignorant and gullible.

331 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:29:31pm
332 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:30:42pm
333 Golem Akbar  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:31:28pm

re: #328 Lizard by the Bay

More interesting today is why so many conservative parties in Europe want to align themselves with what is essentially a rebellious movement within Belgium.

I think you got it. European conservatives are a completely different breed of cat than those in America. They tend to run a little scary, a little more Nazi. American conservatives are probably closer to middle of the roaders elsewhere. Democrats with a little "d."

334 debutaunt  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:31:33pm

re: #134 Silhouette

Islamism is a threat against western civilization. Western civilization needs to win. But some can't separate race from culture, and think the only way to have western civilization is to have all white people. The cure is worse than the disease.

Any tennis fans will state that intermarriage produced James Blake and should be encouraged to continue. Lordy, but he's a fine young man.

335 haakondahl  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:31:41pm

re: #328 Lizard by the Bay

...the primary goal of the VB is to have the Flemish half of the country secede from the rest of Belgium to form the independent nation of Flanders...

I believe that the Nazis have already lost at least one battle for Flanders, and will have to fight again if they want it.

336 Ojoe  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:32:06pm

In Italy there is something called "Lega contro i musumani" But I can't find out much about it.

337 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:32:24pm

re: #313 Neo Con since 9/11

Philistine! Everyone knows you're supposed to use one of these for squirrel.

/

338 Mats  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:32:41pm

Too late for euro-dhimmis! Such is the consequence of having a whole continent ruled by people who have no allegiance to morality.

339 njdhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:32:42pm

Polish Scientists Figure Out Length of Perfect Legs

...Those with legs 5 percent over the average came in first in the hotness rankings, while those with 10 percent over came in second. Average proportions came in third.

Surprisingly, legs 15 percent longer than normal were a turn-off.

340 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:32:56pm
341 Ojoe  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:33:23pm

"musulmani"

PIMF

342 akak  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:34:10pm
cesium-137 had been discovered aboard a freight train bound for Iran

What is clear is that cesium-137 is a dangerous radioactive isotope. Zimmerman, the former chief scientist at the U.S. Arms Control and Disarmament Agency, says that it would be the favored substance of terrorists seeking to build a radiological "dirty bomb" or to launch a so-called "I-cube attack," which would use the easy ingestion, inhalation, or immersion of the powdery chemical to kill on a large scale.

[Link: www.eurasianet.org...]

343 Catttt  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:34:45pm

re: #331 buzzsawmonkey

re: #305 Catttt


Oh - turning into a penis thread, I see. :)

The members are just having some fun.

You misunderstand me. I thought you knew me better. I LIKE penis threads.

344 Ojoe  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:34:57pm

re: #339 njdhockeyfan

"Legs should be long enough to reach the ground."

— A. Lincoln

345 Mardukhai  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:35:15pm

Ventriloquist Jeff Dunham's "Achmed the dead Terrorist"

It's a hoot! ("Silence! I keeeeeeeeeeeell you!")

346 njdhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:35:28pm

re: #342 akak


Yikes!

347 Silhouette  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:35:33pm

I'm not cooking no squirrel unlessen it's paired with moose. My Grannie Natasha insisted on it.

348 nyc redneck  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:37:25pm

re: #326 infidel Alan

So the Huckster used to eat fried squirrel cooked in a popcorn popper in his dorm room. Dumb to talk about it. Presidential all the way.

i agree, who was he really trying to appeal to there. we who have eaten fried squirrel ( w/ drop biscuits and gravy ) don't see it as a relevant point to raise on national tv. at least i don't. i think he was trying to shock those interviewers for some reason. it was dumb to talk abt. it.

349 EC Marm  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:37:32pm

Fred! on CSPAN. Taking questions now.

350 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:37:44pm
351 Carridine  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:38:18pm

re: #320 buzzsawmonkey

I'll look into it in about an hour. Gotta run to work. Sorry 'bout the interruption...

Its not MY question, its Charles' I thimk...

bbiaw

352 Live4Truth  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:38:56pm
Vlaams Belang Joins with BNP, Other Eurofascists in New Anti-Islam Group

This actually sounds like good news, similar to how it's good news when Fatah and Hamas fight each other, or Saddam's Iraq and Iran fight each other.

On the positive side, these Euro-racists might just have a cajones to go up against the Islamofascists, unlike the Euro-Multiculturalists, who are completely ill-equipped to deal with this invasion.

On the negative side, if the Euro-racists win, then I'd expect them to dominate Europe for a long time to come.

While staying out of it myself, if I had to choose one of the two to root for, it would be the Euro-racists. The Euro-racists aren't expansionist or murderous, and they have a greater capacity for reason than the Islamofascists, and that's a lot easier to cope with.

353 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:39:50pm

re: #343 Catttt

I find nothing likable about my unraveling undies.

/Wait..what? Oh.....

354 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:40:01pm
355 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:40:52pm
356 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:40:54pm

re: #352 Live4Truth

The Euro-racists aren't expansionist or murderous

Really?

357 snowcrash  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:41:44pm

re: #349 EC Marm
Thanks, he's looking good.

358 Amillennialist  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:41:53pm

re: #318 Yank in the EU

re: #312 Amillennialist

Unity with the white nationalists and neo-Nazis would mean the death of the anti-jihad cause and decent conservatives in general.

Does that mean that you think I am calling for unity with Nazis?

I am not.

Charles, Gates, Atlas, etc., should be working together against jihad.

Instead of public flame-throwing, which does great damage, go back to the basic disagreement(s), examine the evidence, admit errors, apologize for unnecessary antagonism, and work together to defeat jihad's apologists and their Useful Idiot Dhimmis here and in Europe.

They're intelligent people with good intentions. They can find a way to reconcile without compromising the truth.

359 njdhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:43:01pm

re: #344 Ojoe

re: #339 njdhockeyfan

"Legs should be long enough to reach the ground."

— A. Lincoln

Legs!

360 akak  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:44:49pm

Canada places US, Israel on torture watch list

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

straight from Jihadi Reuters

361 Silhouette  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:44:51pm

re: #352 Live4Truth

The Euro-racists aren't expansionist or murderous, and they have a greater capacity for reason than the Islamofascists, and that's a lot easier to cope with.

I think you may be thinking of them as they are now. When in power, they tend to try to take over the world, murder people in ovens, perform grisly experiments, and overall reach the ultimate heights of evil in the history of time. Plus, for all their evil, they tend to be smart and organized.

362 haakondahl  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:44:54pm

re: #333 Golem Akbar

re: #328 Lizard by the Bay

More interesting today is why so many conservative parties in Europe want to align themselves with what is essentially a rebellious movement within Belgium.

I think you got it. European conservatives are a completely different breed of cat than those in America. They tend to run a little scary, a little more Nazi. American conservatives are probably closer to middle of the roaders elsewhere. Democrats with a little "d."

Let's be clear here: Nazis were leftists. Fascism is another form of totalitarianism. Whether it is the Fascism of Mussolini or Adolf Hitler, or the Communism of Stalin or Mao, it is always a leftist phenomenon. "Nazi" was a foreshortening of "National Socialism", after all, and this is not a coincidence.
The Communists called everything they didn't like "rightist". The Bolsheviks called even the Trotskyites "rightists". But these thin divisions between two groups of Communists do not make any of them rightists in any sense.
Nazis and Islamists will converge before either of them helps the right. The rabidly racist Germans and the rabidly racist Japanese had absolutely no problem signing their pact in blood, and leaving the obvious contradicitons for later. Anything but ally with the right.

363 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:45:03pm

re: #358 Amillennialist

go back to the basic disagreement(s), examine the evidence, admit errors, apologize for unnecessary antagonism, and work together to defeat jihad's apologists and their Useful Idiot Dhimmis here and in Europe

Good luck getting any of them to admit they were wrong, much less any of the other points you mention.

364 ec marm  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:45:40pm

re: #357 snowcrash

Thanks, he's looking good.


Fred, "I'm against global warming!"
lol...

365 Render  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:46:20pm

They're putting the old band back together.

This, (the subject of this thread), is the EU's White racist ITS group minus those pesky Romanians and overly combative Italians.

BNP is nothing more than Stormfront UK.

In the US we work very hard at disrespecting the likes of David Duke and his followers.

Certain overly nuanced Europeans seem to think that Dukes European allies are the only hope for the "White" race.

===

What exactly is it that prevents Europeans from forming anti-Islamofascist political groups that do NOT include neo-nazi's, neo-fascists, White Nationalists, and other racists? Is it that fabled "nuance?"

WORK
TO DO,
R

366 Portia  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:46:41pm

Meremortal

The enemy of my enemy is an asshole.

LOL. Perfect.

P.

367 Amillennialist  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:48:17pm

re: #352 Live4Truth

Vlaams Belang Joins with BNP, Other Eurofascists in New Anti-Islam Group

This actually sounds like good news, similar to how it's good news when Fatah and Hamas fight each other, or Saddam's Iraq and Iran fight each other.

. . .

While staying out of it myself, if I had to choose one of the two to root for, it would be the Euro-racists. The Euro-racists aren't expansionist or murderous, and they have a greater capacity for reason than the Islamofascists, and that's a lot easier to cope with.

We've already defeated European Nazis once, and they're socially unacceptable.

Islam we can't even name.

368 jeppo[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:49:03pm
369 snowcrash  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:50:24pm

re: #364 ec marm
Was it the format, the lighting, the time of day or what(?) but Fred is finially giving me confidence to vote for him.

370 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:50:24pm

re: #368 jeppo

So....you don't have a problem with your beloved vlaams belang hooking up with the bnp?

371 guftafs  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:51:22pm

re: #352 Live4Truth

Vlaams Belang Joins with BNP, Other Eurofascists in New Anti-Islam Group

...

While staying out of it myself, if I had to choose one of the two to root for, it would be the Euro-racists. The Euro-racists aren't expansionist or murderous, and they have a greater capacity for reason than the Islamofascists, and that's a lot easier to cope with.

I think it's in the nature of racism that people other than your tribe will be regarded with hostility. Going by the evidence that certainly seems the case. Why else demand separatism? This suggests that the separatists find the presence of foreign elements in too large dosesintolerable, they literally can't stand it. Does that sound rational, sane? How open are they to rational argument? How willing are they to resort to force?

372 jcm  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:51:36pm

re: #358 Amillennialist

The problem is the racist elements have seen the anti-jihadist movement as a opportunity to become mainstream. By associating with them it helps to legitimize racists who have been marginalized for decades.

Allying with racists is simple not an option when the issue at hand is liberty. The goal of the racists is not the defeat of the jihadist, it is to regain power and again establish fascist / nazi power in Europe. They are also the enemies of liberty.

373 Live4Truth  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:51:38pm

re: #356 Sharmuta

re: #352 Live4Truth

The Euro-racists aren't expansionist or murderous

Really?

... as far as I know. My impression is that they want Europe to be all-white, not make the world white. And their method of choice is to stop all immigration of non-whites, and probably to make non-white Europeans feel unwelcome. Pretty ugly, but compared to "convert or die" Muslims who want to convert the world, and couldn't care less about individuals, then ...

374 jcm  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:52:19pm

re: #364 ec marm

re: #357 snowcrash


Thanks, he's looking good.


Fred, "I'm against global warming!"
lol...

I'm for global warming.....
I can't wait for spring.

375 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:52:30pm
376 haakondahl  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:52:38pm

re: #358 Amillennialist

re: #318 Yank in the EU


re: #312 Amillennialist

Unity with the white nationalists and neo-Nazis would mean the death of the anti-jihad cause and decent conservatives in general.


Does that mean that you think I am calling for unity with Nazis?

I am not.

Charles, Gates, Atlas, etc., should be working together against jihad.

Instead of public flame-throwing, which does great damage, go back to the basic disagreement(s), examine the evidence, admit errors, apologize for unnecessary antagonism, and work together to defeat jihad's apologists and their Useful Idiot Dhimmis here and in Europe.

You're ignoring the very important fact that Charles is right, and the rest of these folks have sold their souls, more hatred than justice.

They're intelligent people with good intentions. They can find a way to reconcile without compromising the truth.


Not True! They are either not intelligent enough to recognize the Fascists they are befriending, or not well-intentioned enough to do anything about it. There will be no reconciliation without some serious attitude changes over there. And all they need to do is come out swinging ofr the right side. No apology needed. Just stop being on the wrong damned side.

377 Neo Con since 9-11  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:53:10pm

re: #326 infidel Alan

So the Huckster used to eat fried squirrel cooked in a popcorn popper in his dorm room. Dumb to talk about it. Presidential all the way.

They're having field day with that quote over at DKos. Not exactly a Dean scream but not his best moment, to be sure.

378 guftafs  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:54:13pm

re: #358 Amillennialist

re: #318 Yank in the EU

re: #312 Amillennialist

...
They're intelligent people with good intentions. They can find a way to reconcile without compromising the truth.

Good thing you're here to tell us what they think?

/shakes head

379 haakondahl  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:54:30pm

re: #368 jeppo

This is a very interesting development. The name "Cities against Islamisation" says it all: Deal with the issue first at the municipal, then at the national and transnational levels.


Sounds familiar indeed:
"First we take Berlin..."

380 Yankee Division Son  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:54:34pm

The Twilight Zone Season 3, Episode 9 - "Deaths-Head Revisited"

Rod Serling closes-out the episode with one of his most moving final narrations, which explicitly, and uncharacteristically, announces the episode's moral in relation to the real world:

"...All the Dachaus must remain standing. The Dachaus, the Belsens, the Buchenwalds, the Auschwitzes—all of them. They must remain standing because they are a monument to a moment in time when some men decided to turn the Earth into a graveyard. Into it they shoveled all of their reason, their logic, their knowledge, but worst of all, their conscience. And the moment we forget this, the moment we cease to be haunted by its remembrance, then we become the gravediggers. Something to dwell on and to remember, not only in the Twilight Zone but wherever men walk God's Earth."

381 ec marm  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:54:58pm

re: #369 snowcrash


Was it the format, the lighting, the time of day or what(?) but Fred is finially giving me confidence to vote for him.


I close my eyes and try to think of our founding fathers listening to Fred. I think they'd nod their heads in approval. I like the fact that he acknowledges the problems that are down the road, instead of just throwing a buzzword "change" at the audience.

382 Live4Truth  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:55:13pm

re: #361 Silhouette

re: #352 Live4Truth

The Euro-racists aren't expansionist or murderous, and they have a greater capacity for reason than the Islamofascists, and that's a lot easier to cope with.

I think you may be thinking of them as they are now. When in power, they tend to try to take over the world, murder people in ovens, perform grisly experiments, and overall reach the ultimate heights of evil in the history of time. Plus, for all their evil, they tend to be smart and organized.

I'd argue that the Nazis were easier to fight than the jihadis are, because at least the Nazis cared about their children, and wanted to live.

You're right, that I based that on present-day Euro-racism. No telling what it might morph in to, once it grows into something larger and more powerful.

383 Amillennialist  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:55:48pm

re: #362 haakondahl

re: #333 Golem Akbar

re: #328 Lizard by the Bay

More interesting today is why so many conservative parties in Europe want to align themselves with what is essentially a rebellious movement within Belgium.


I think you got it. European conservatives are a completely different breed of cat than those in America. They tend to run a little scary, a little more Nazi. American conservatives are probably closer to middle of the roaders elsewhere. Democrats with a little "d."


Nazis and Islamists will converge before either of them helps the right. The rabidly racist Germans and the rabidly racist Japanese had absolutely no problem signing their pact in blood, and leaving the obvious contradicitons for later. Anything but ally with the right.

They've already killed together.

It wasn't "Hitler's Pope" during World War II, it was Hitler's Mufti.

The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was one of Hitler's allies, even visiting his concentration camps and encouraging the butchers to be more diligent in their work of killing Jews.

384 Catttt  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:55:57pm

re: #373 Live4Truth

re: #356 Sharmuta


re: #352 Live4Truth

The Euro-racists aren't expansionist or murderous

Really?

... as far as I know. My impression is that they want Europe to be all-white, not make the world white. And their method of choice is to stop all immigration of non-whites, and probably to make non-white Europeans feel unwelcome. Pretty ugly, but compared to "convert or die" Muslims who want to convert the world, and couldn't care less about individuals, then ...

Trotting out an old saw here - two wrongs don't make a right. Also, tons of "white" people in Europe won't go along with the fascist agenda, which will start another conflict, a la Europe's prior dustups - called world wars.

385 njdhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:55:59pm

Anti-Muslim Sentiment in Europe

...American anti-Jihadis and conservatives often think that they have to join forces with European multiculturalism-critics. This is something they’re right about. They have to be careful, however, about who they join forces with. Charles Johnson has spent significant time and attention to one of the parties in Europe (Belgium: Vlaams Belang, formerly known as Vlaams Blok) that were embraced initially by anti-Jihadis, saying that they’d better not associate with these people, because they’re nothing more than neo-Nazis.

Although Charles is certainly right to say that Americans shouldn’t associate with Vlaams Belang, it seems to me that he and people like him aren’t quite aware of the nature of Geert Wilders. Wilders is still considered acceptable, an ally, but he isn’t conservative, he’s a bigot, and it would be wise for Americans not to join forces with these people... if they do, it’ll be impossible for conservative critics of integration and immigration like myself to work with them, for we wish not to be associated with bigots. Directly or indirectly.

Why do I call Wilders a bigot you ask? Because he is. His freedom isn’t about freedom, it’s about bigotry. The immigration and integration problems are serious and we need to do something. But that ’something’ has already been done. All we need to do now is to hang on to the policy changes; implement them and let time do the rest.

386 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:56:27pm

re: #141 Maximu§

Charles, in 10 years these radical parties mentioned in this thread will be in power, because the present governments have turned their backs on their own citizens.

I'm no fan of these people, but we're looking at the future of Europe.

Maximu§
3/11 ACR

Indeed. Immersed in multiculturalism and the residue of the 60s counterculture, the European cultural and governmental establishments do not even have the linguistic and intellectual tools needed to combat the rising tide of Islamism and fascist reaction. The European mainstream cannot tell the truth because doing so would offend someone and violate the governing principles. Worse, they will not allow others to tell the truth without being marginalized as fanatics and racists. In this atmosphere, only the most extreme, those with nothing to lose, are willing to take overt action. It is the weakness and venality of the Weimar Republic all over again.

387 infidel4ever  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:57:03pm

re: #368 jeppo

This is a very interesting development. The name "Cities against Islamisation" says it all: Deal with the issue first at the municipal, then at the national and transnational levels. Europe's Muslim population is overwhelmingly concentrated in urban areas, such as Antwerp. This group's chief goal is a moratorium on the construction of new mosques. Dewinter mentioned the new mega-mosque being built in Rotterdam which will tower over neighbouring Feyenoord football stadium, the Yankee Stadium of Holland. Massive mosques and minarets funded by Persian Gulf oil money are a built to dominate public space in European cities, letting the docile population know in no uncertain terms who their new masters will be.

I hope these "no new mosques" protests spread to other cities across Europe, and soon. Muslim-dominated no-go zones in France already contain 8% of the population of that country, or 5 million "Frenchmen". These zones are ruled by Kosovo-like Islamo-mafiosi, not the French police or government. Good for the VB to get the ball rolling in Antwerp. On to Paris and London and Berlin and Rome and Madrid and...

Exactly. The population of Amsterdam is as of today getting the new Westermoskee rammed down its throat, never mind the financial shenanigans and pure corruption that hangs around that deal. Two million Euro's tax money sunk into the project. Separation of church and state, right. And who is in charge of that mosque? Milli Gürüs. Yeah, let's support the fundamentalists...

388 haakondahl  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:57:55pm

re: #381 ec marm

I close my eyes and try to think of our founding fathers listening to Fred. I think they'd nod their heads in approval.


Yes, I think we all tend to start nodding when Fred speaks.

389 ec marm  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 3:59:58pm

Hillary: "And when I'm elected I'm going to take you away from your mother and father and put you in a really fun village with Uncle Bill, and Sid Vicious, and you can sit on Obama's lap while he reads you stories!"
Little girl: "Okay!"

390 Live4Truth  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:00:00pm

re: #371 guftafs

re: #352 Live4Truth

Vlaams Belang Joins with BNP, Other Eurofascists in New Anti-Islam Group

...

While staying out of it myself, if I had to choose one of the two to root for, it would be the Euro-racists. The Euro-racists aren't expansionist or murderous, and they have a greater capacity for reason than the Islamofascists, and that's a lot easier to cope with.

I think it's in the nature of racism that people other than your tribe will be regarded with hostility. Going by the evidence that certainly seems the case. Why else demand separatism? This suggests that the separatists find the presence of foreign elements in too large dosesintolerable, they literally can't stand it. Does that sound rational, sane? How open are they to rational argument? How willing are they to resort to force?

I agree that they aren't very rational. I was just comparing them to jihadis, who are the antithesis of rationality. At least we had some of the VB supporters join us in this forum, to try to make their case. As far as I know, we've never had any jihadis join up, to try to make the case for their "cause." Again, that doesn't make the Euro-racists rational, just more rational than jihadis, and that's something to work with. My point here is just the "lesser of the evils."

391 godfrey  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:00:08pm

what chaps my hide is that we now have to vet both sides with nearly equal effort

Thanks for nothing you a**hole Nazi mfers

392 Former Belgian  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:00:08pm

I am reminded of an anecdote about Robert Conquest. After he published "The harvest of sorrow" about the man-made famine in the Ukraine, and his book on the Great Terror, every leftist apologist of course shouted him down, accused him of inflating the body counts, etc. etc.

Some time later, the Soviet Bloc collapsed, and all sorts of documents became accessible that showed that Conquest's statistics, if anything, erred on the low side. His publisher decided to issue a new edition, and asked Conquest on the phone if he had a more creative suggestion for a subtitle than "revised and updated edition".

Conquest paused for a moment, then answered: "How about: 'I told you so, you f***ing fools!'"

393 jeppo[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:00:27pm
394 infidel Alan  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:01:38pm

re: #388 haakondahl

re: #381 ec marm

I close my eyes and try to think of our founding fathers listening to Fred. I think they'd nod their heads in approval.


Yes, I think we all tend to start nodding when Fred speaks.

Good one! I like Fred but he's a lousy campaigner and there's no way I'm voting for him.

395 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:02:50pm

re: #382 Live4Truth

Sorry but the euro-racists of the past most certainly have a history of murder and expansionism. No telling what their little off-spring are capable of.

396 Amillennialist  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:03:08pm

re: #372 jcm

re: #358 Amillennialist

The problem is the racist elements have seen the anti-jihadist movement as a opportunity to become mainstream. By associating with them it helps to legitimize racists who have been marginalized for decades.

Allying with racists is simple not an option when the issue at hand is liberty. The goal of the racists is not the defeat of the jihadist, it is to regain power and again establish fascist / nazi power in Europe. They are also the enemies of liberty.

So, the "anti-jihadist movement" is mainstream? That's good news.

Again, I am not calling for unity nor even compromise with any racists, if that is what you are implying.

Hmmm. A person wants major participants in the ideological war against Islam to reconcile and work together, and receives in reply two posts trying to explain how Nazis are bad.

What an odd false dichotomy.

397 njdhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:03:19pm

LGF is getting some support from Metrosexual Libertarian...

I have to give LGF credit, the blog is consistent

While his friend Pamela at Atlas Shrugs continues to think that as long as a group is against Islamism, we really shouldn't be too concerned with their past ties to Fascism and revolting anti-Semitism, and therefore makes it clear she's nothing but a whore. Charles Johnson, someone with whom I share probably very little in common (with the exception being my skepticism about the dangers of global warming) politically has been strongly against groups like Vlaams Belang, the British National Party, and other right wing fascist groups in Europe who hope to achieve some form of legitimacy by being against Islamism in general.

Well today the Vlaams Belang formed a group with the BNP calling themselves Cities Against Islamisation, whatever the fuck that means. You know if you asked Mayor Meeker of Raleigh, NC I'm sure he'd say he's against the setting up of an Islamic Caliphate in the capital of North Carolina, so giving themselves this name is really fucking stupid.

Now the question is, why would anybody join a group involving a political party run by Nick Griffin, a notorious racist and holocaust denier? And how do the defenders of the Vlaams Belang wish to respond now that their group is openly active with one of the most disgusting European political parties in existence?

And how does Ms. Pamela of Atlas Shrugs feel about her beloved fighters against jihad joining with a party which would have all its members imprisoned if they were in Austria or Germany?

398 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:03:24pm

re: #393 jeppo

So if the nazis protest the mosques- you're all for it?

399 godfrey  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:04:24pm

re: #386 Shiplord Kirel

shit shit shit I fear you're right

400 haakondahl  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:04:41pm

Alright, I gotta go. For the VB apologists and sympathizers here on this thread: I sincerely hope that you recognize the evil sitting next to you. Come back to the right. We need good people, but not if you're whored out to the Nazis.
There is a war coming, and I will be on the right side. I won't be on the side of the Islamist Fascists, and I won't be on the side of the Nazi Fascists. They have too much in common.

401 Mich-again  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:04:43pm

John Edwards trashing Ronald Reagan in a speech on C-Span right now. According to Edwards, Reagan destroyed America. Nice theme Breck Girl. Blame Ronald Reagan.

402 Amillennialist  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:05:46pm

re: #363 Sharmuta

re: #358 Amillennialist

go back to the basic disagreement(s), examine the evidence, admit errors, apologize for unnecessary antagonism, and work together to defeat jihad's apologists and their Useful Idiot Dhimmis here and in Europe

Good luck getting any of them to admit they were wrong, much less any of the other points you mention.

I can't afford not to dream.

The consequences of Islam's victory are too dire for all I hold dear.

403 guftafs  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:05:51pm

re: #390 Live4Truth

re: #371 guftafs

re: #352 Live4Truth

I agree that they aren't very rational. I was just comparing them to jihadis, who are the antithesis of rationality. At least we had some of the VB supporters join us in this forum, to try to make their case. As far as I know, we've never had any jihadis join up, to try to make the case for their "cause." Again, that doesn't make the Euro-racists rational, just more rational than jihadis, and that's something to work with. My point here is just the "lesser of the evils."

Countering your last sentence: "Why choose any evil?" The reasons for not supporting parties like the VB, BNP have been thoroughly examined here. Do a site search for "vlaams belang".

404 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:06:17pm
405 wanumba  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:07:04pm

The Euro fascists of the 1940s had no qualms about killing any American they could get in their sights.
European fascists allying themselves across national borders with each other is no comfort in any way to Americans.

406 ec marm  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:07:19pm

re: #401 Mich-again
It's an attack on Obama, too. Maybe he's gonna do Hillary's heavy lifting for a while in hopes of the V-P slot.

407 Live4Truth  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:07:29pm

re: #395 Sharmuta

re: #382 Live4Truth

Sorry but the euro-racists of the past most certainly have a history of murder and expansionism. No telling what their little off-spring are capable of.

Agreed. But in a war between jihadis and neo-nazis, if you had to choose one of the two to win, which would it be? Or, maybe we should do a Saddam vs. Iran trick and support the weaker one, so that they can beat the tar out of each other?

408 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:07:40pm
409 nyc redneck  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:07:44pm

re: #388 haakondahl

re: #381 ec marm

I close my eyes and try to think of our founding fathers listening to Fred. I think they'd nod their heads in approval.


Yes, I think we all tend to start nodding when Fred speaks.

mark levin interviewed his wife yesterday. she's very bright and i was impressed w/ her down to earth personality.

410 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:09:06pm

re: #402 Amillennialist

Okay- I won't stop you from trying to get gov, bj and friends to admit they were wrong, and apologize to Charles for the antagonism, but I do think you're going to need this.

411 snowcrash  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:09:18pm

re: #394 infidel Alan
He is a terrible campaigner but for some reason he has spark in S.C.

412 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:09:53pm

re: #407 Live4Truth

I choose neither. Is that an option?! No fascists in my foxhole! Thank you.

413 Live4Truth  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:10:50pm

re: #403 guftafs

re: #390 Live4Truth

re: #371 guftafs

re: #352 Live4Truth

I agree that they aren't very rational. I was just comparing them to jihadis, who are the antithesis of rationality. At least we had some of the VB supporters join us in this forum, to try to make their case. As far as I know, we've never had any jihadis join up, to try to make the case for their "cause." Again, that doesn't make the Euro-racists rational, just more rational than jihadis, and that's something to work with. My point here is just the "lesser of the evils."

Countering your last sentence: "Why choose any evil?" The reasons for not supporting parties like the VB, BNP have been thoroughly examined here. Do a site search for "vlaams belang".

Guftafs, I'm not supporting either of them. In my first post here, I was comparing this to a fight between Fatah and Hamas, and trying to decide which one I'd prefer to win.

414 jeppo[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:11:15pm
415 Kenneth  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:11:36pm

If anybody thinks the extreme right racists can pose a serious opposition to the Islamofascists, they are seriously mistaken. The real problem with European white racists co-opting the anti-Islamist fight is that it will de-legitimize that fight in the eyes of the moderate liberal democratic middle of the European polity. The average European will more likely join the Islamists in putting down the neo-nazis. In the end, the Islamists win.

Just as the far left has co-opted the US Democratic party, the neo-nazis like Vlaams Belang and the BNP are attempting to do the same thing to "conservative" parties in Europe. And, they are also trying it in America with their favourite candidate for the Republican Party: Ron Paul.

416 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:11:46pm

re: #412 Sharmuta

Wait a minute, I thought this was supposed to be a penis thread?

/sorry

417 Render  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:11:51pm

re: #407 Live4Truth

We don't have to choose or accept either of those two options. Nor will we, ever.

GOT
IT?,
R

418 Live4Truth  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:12:44pm

re: #412 Sharmuta

re: #407 Live4Truth

I choose neither. Is that an option?! No fascists in my foxhole! Thank you.

I hope it is an option. And I didn't/don't want them in my foxhole either. But since it looks like they're going to duke it out, I was just trying to decide which of the two I'd prefer to win.

419 ec marm  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:12:47pm

John Edwards:
health care
mental health care
dental care
Free!*


* Just vote for him, you can read the fine print later

420 Amillennialist  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:12:49pm

re: #376 haakondahl

re: #358 Amillennialist

re: #318 Yank in the EU


re: #312 AmillennialistUnity with the white nationalists and neo-Nazis would mean the death of the anti-jihad cause and decent conservatives in general.


Does that mean that you think I am calling for unity with Nazis?I am not.

Charles, Gates, Atlas, etc., should be working together against jihad.

Instead of public flame-throwing, which does great damage, go back to the basic disagreement(s), examine the evidence, admit errors, apologize for unnecessary antagonism, and work together to defeat jihad's apologists and their Useful Idiot Dhimmis here and in Europe.

You're ignoring the very important fact that Charles is right, and the rest of these folks have sold their souls, more hatred than justice.

They're intelligent people with good intentions. They can find a way to reconcile without compromising the truth.


Not True! They are either not intelligent enough to recognize the Fascists they are befriending, or not well-intentioned enough to do anything about it. There will be no reconciliation without some serious attitude changes over there. And all they need to do is come out swinging ofr the right side. No apology needed. Just stop being on the wrong damned side.

An ad hominem attack and a false dichotomy. The intelligent can err. So can the well-intentioned. And being sure of one's position (even when wrong) does not make one Faust.

Emotional rhetoric will do nothing to aid our effort against Islam.

421 infidel4ever  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:13:07pm

re: #412 Sharmuta

re: #407 Live4Truth

I choose neither. Is that an option?! No fascists in my foxhole! Thank you.

But are you going to waste your time and energy fighting them while both of you have the same goal: defeating islam?

422 snowcrash  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:13:44pm

re: #419 ec marm
Couldn't take it a minute more. T.V. off!

423 guftafs  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:14:09pm

re: #413 Live4Truth

Guftafs, I'm not supporting either of them. In my first post here, I was comparing this to a fight between Fatah and Hamas, and trying to decide which one I'd prefer to win.

If it's all the same you shouldn't have any problems with someone not supporting them. (Careful now, or you'll get entangled in your previous statements ...)

424 jcm  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:14:24pm

re: #396 Amillennialist

That's well and good. Reconcile...
BUT DON'T BRING the [Deleted] Nazis with. Them.

With VB, BNP, et. al. it's not about fighting Islam. That's just the words they mouth because it's convenient. It's about them regain power.

In a larger context we are fighting for western civilization and liberty. Against ALL ENEMIES. We have a hard enough time getting the west to recognize the threat of the jihadist.

We are already labeled "racist" "islamophobe" etc... by the left. Why give them more ammo?

Allying with the racist groups of Europe is counter productive in the short term. It damages our ability to wage the war on the home front. In the long term it is counterproductive because after the jihadist wars are won, we have to purge the fascist and nazi elements to restore liberty.

It up to GoV and others to recognize this.

425 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:15:11pm
426 jcm  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:15:19pm

re: #416 Slumbering Behemoth

re: #412 Sharmuta

Wait a minute, I thought this was supposed to be a penis thread?

/sorry

Okay...
John Edwards is a dick.

427 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:15:49pm

re: #414 jeppo

re: #398 Sharmuta

re: #393 jeppo

So if the nazis protest the mosques- you're all for it?

No, but I support democratic politicians like Dewinter who seem to be abiding by the wishes of the VB's 800,000 voters: Stop the Islamization of Antwerp etc. NOW.

You do realize the nazis were elected too. They might have even listened to their electorate.......

428 Render  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:16:14pm

re: #414 Kewpie

Who elected DeWinter/VanHecke to the leadership of VB, and when did this happen?

Who elected Nick Griffin leader of BNP? And when has BNP ever held internal elections?

WHAT
DEMOCRACY?,
R

429 debutaunt  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:16:29pm

re: #382 Live4Truth

re: #361 Silhouette


re: #352 Live4Truth

The Euro-racists aren't expansionist or murderous, and they have a greater capacity for reason than the Islamofascists, and that's a lot easier to cope with.

I think you may be thinking of them as they are now. When in power, they tend to try to take over the world, murder people in ovens, perform grisly experiments, and overall reach the ultimate heights of evil in the history of time. Plus, for all their evil, they tend to be smart and organized.

I'd argue that the Nazis were easier to fight than the jihadis are, because at least the Nazis cared about their children, and wanted to live.

You're right, that I based that on present-day Euro-racism. No telling what it might morph in to, once it grows into something larger and more powerful.

The fight seems much closer to the Japanese in WWII.

430 nyc redneck  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:16:56pm

re: #425 buzzsawmonkey

I vote for the politically-incorrect Sambo Option. Let the tigers run 'round the tree until they turn to butter, then make pancakes.

PANCAKES, i'll bring the fresh blueberries and maple syrup.

431 njdhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:17:38pm

re: #421 infidel4ever

re: #412 Sharmuta


re: #407 Live4Truth

I choose neither. Is that an option?! No fascists in my foxhole! Thank you.


But are you going to waste your time and energy fighting them while both of you have the same goal: defeating islam?

Can't we fight Islam without allying ourselves with neo-Nazis and white supremacists?

432 ec marm  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:17:54pm

re: #422 snowcrash


Couldn't take it a minute more. T.V. off!

I've removed all objects of throwable size from the area. But I can only take another minute or two, max.

433 jcm  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:17:57pm

re: #430 nyc redneck

re: #425 buzzsawmonkey

I vote for the politically-incorrect Sambo Option. Let the tigers run 'round the tree until they turn to butter, then make pancakes.

PANCAKES, i'll bring the fresh blueberries and maple syrup.

If we're having PANCAKES everyone must wear Caterpillar brand work boots.

434 haakondahl  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:18:16pm

re: #421 infidel4ever

re: #412 Sharmuta


re: #407 Live4Truth

I choose neither. Is that an option?! No fascists in my foxhole! Thank you.


But are you going to waste your time and energy fighting them while both of you have the same goal: defeating islam?

YES. Around here we think pretty highly of Jews, to take a litmus case. Your Nazi friends don't. So I don't care whom else they don't much like. You would allow a man to kill your brother if he offered to kill your enemy. I would not.
The only time wasted here, it seems, is me talking to you.

435 Silhouette  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:18:23pm

re: #382 Live4Truth

But in a war between jihadis and neo-nazis, if you had to choose one of the two to win, which would it be?

That's the crux.

We don't HAVE to choose. We can win without siding with the "lesser evil". In fact, we'll lose if we do, either way.

436 Killian Bundy  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:18:27pm

re: #430 nyc redneck

PANCAKES, i'll bring the fresh blueberries and maple syrup.

/screw that, order the pandercakes

437 Kenneth  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:18:34pm

re: #383 Amillennialist

And Hitler wrote about how if historyu had run differently and Muslims had conquered and converted Europe, the Germans would have naturally excelled at the warlike jihadi ethos and become the ruling nation of Islam.

Fascism is fascism is fascism. Expecting one fascist to save you from another fascist is like hoping a jackel will save you from a lion.

438 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:19:01pm

re: #421 infidel4ever

re: #412 Sharmuta

re: #407 Live4Truth

I choose neither. Is that an option?! No fascists in my foxhole! Thank you.

But are you going to waste your time and energy fighting them while both of you have the same goal: defeating islam?

Defeating evil is not a waste of time or energy.

439 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:19:02pm

re: #426 jcm

re: #416 Slumbering Behemoth

re: #412 Sharmuta

Wait a minute, I thought this was supposed to be a penis thread?

/sorry

Okay...
John Edwards is a dick.

He is a biological anomaly; biggest dick I've ever seen, but no balls.

/paraphrased from a movie I can't remember the name of

440 Athos  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:19:14pm

re: #413 Live4Truth

re: #403 guftafs


re: #390 Live4Truth

re: #371 guftafs

re: #352 Live4Truth

I agree that they aren't very rational. I was just comparing them to jihadis, who are the antithesis of rationality. At least we had some of the VB supporters join us in this forum, to try to make their case. As far as I know, we've never had any jihadis join up, to try to make the case for their "cause." Again, that doesn't make the Euro-racists rational, just more rational than jihadis, and that's something to work with. My point here is just the "lesser of the evils."

Countering your last sentence: "Why choose any evil?" The reasons for not supporting parties like the VB, BNP have been thoroughly examined here. Do a site search for "vlaams belang".

Guftafs, I'm not supporting either of them. In my first post here, I was comparing this to a fight between Fatah and Hamas, and trying to decide which one I'd prefer to win.

Why not work to defeat both of them?

441 Stonemason  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:19:44pm

re: #433 jcm

If nothing else, LGF is consistant...it took three posts to get to Rachel when pancakes were mentioned!

442 Yank in the EU  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:20:13pm

re: #358 Amillennialist

In short, the major problem with your idea is that GoV, Fjordman and Brussels Journal advocate joining ranks with the VB, for example. Fjordman and Dymphna have clearly defended the white nationalist ideology on LGF threads and in pieces at GoV. We've had a lot of similar problems with BNP supporters who are outraged at our rejection of joining ranks. But this is the right position, regardless of how many ad hominem attacks they print against LGF and its owner.

I've no idea what positions you hold, so I'm not talking about you, yet I think it's absolutely the right and necessary move for fighting the jihad and for the conservative mov't to take a distance from VB, BNP, et. al. and their supporters. These people have seen the clear evidence of serious problems in the VB such as: a long history of Holocaust denial by the leadership including long-time president Karel Dillen and VB VP Roland Raes in 2001, white nationalist ideology, making alliances with openly neo-Nazi groups such as the NPD and Haider's FPO, Dewinter himself affirming that the VB still honors Nazi collaborators as the party's founders, and the group within the VB that advocates SA apartheid. Now these blogs you talk about give utterly absurd denials of the verifiable problems with a group such as the VB and advocate joining ranks with them, which makes them people with whom we must also strong disunite. Not only because it is right, but because it is necessary, as mentioned above.

A great part of the problem is the continual, fallacious insistence by VB and BNP supporters that there are only two choices: multiculturalism and Islamization or joining with the white nationalist movements, who are most publicly speaking out against Islam. It is even the motto of the VB: 'het enige alternatief.'This fallacy of the false dilemma presents a LOSE- LOSE scenario for European countries, given that the fringe, racist far-right will be fought on all sides and the anti-jihad cause discredited. As free, decent beings, we always have alternatives and in Belgium there are other choices, such as the parties N-VA or LD who have also supported the cordon sanitaire against the VB. I support the movement Flemish independence (for many reasons not relating to the VB) and curbing Islamic immigration, as a resident in Flanders, and either of the two parties I mentioned would agree with these views. People must also convince the idiots in the Christian Democrats and liberal parties to remove their heads from their rears on the issues of Islamization and flooding immigration. For my part, I also have strongly agreed with the stance LGF has taken on this issue as both necessary in terms of survival and because it is right.

443 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:20:14pm
444 snowcrash  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:20:20pm

re: #430 nyc redneck
Bought a big box of blueberries at Costco today. Was going to make muffins but pancakes sound delicious.

445 infidel Alan  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:20:28pm

I have no use for neo-Nazis but in a fight to the death (of Western Civilization) it possible to be over-fastidious about allies. Remember that the US became an ally of Stalin (about as close as you can get to the Devil himself) for a while, without turning Communist. Also let me point out that Clinton and his pets ruined our human intelligence capabilities by refusing to let the CIA and others use any persons who were (alleged) criminals. Of course no one wants to make common cause with racist thugs but not all nationalists are genocidal maniacs, especially in Europe.

446 jcm  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:20:40pm

re: #441 Stonemason

re: #433 jcm

If nothing else, LGF is consistant...it took three posts to get to Rachel when pancakes were mentioned!

We have our standards.

447 Totally Berserk  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:21:53pm
If I had to predict, I’d bet they’ll be OK with the BNP. It’s easier after the first step.

Ouch. That's gonna leave a mark.

448 jcm  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:22:46pm

Gotta run. Honey do list from the boss.

449 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:22:50pm

re: #431 njdhockeyfan

The answer to that is not only "Yes, we can", but "Indeed, we must"!

450 MandyManners  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:23:36pm

re: #443 buzzsawmonkey

re: #441 Stonemason


re: #433 jcm

If nothing else, LGF is consistant...it took three posts to get to Rachel when pancakes were mentioned!


I'm crushed that it took so long.

LOL!

451 nyc redneck  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:23:43pm

re: #444 snowcrash

re: #430 nyc redneck
Bought a big box of blueberries at Costco today. Was going to make muffins but pancakes sound delicious.

does your dog eat blue berries?
my big guy loves them.

452 Live4Truth  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:24:32pm

re: #423 guftafs

re: #413 Live4Truth

Guftafs, I'm not supporting either of them. In my first post here, I was comparing this to a fight between Fatah and Hamas, and trying to decide which one I'd prefer to win.

If it's all the same you shouldn't have any problems with someone not supporting them. (Careful now, or you'll get entangled in your previous statements ...)

I have no idea what you're talking about.re: #431 njdhockeyfan

re: #421 infidel4ever

re: #412 Sharmuta


re: #407 Live4TruthI choose neither. Is that an option?! No fascists in my foxhole! Thank you.


But are you going to waste your time and energy fighting them while both of you have the same goal: defeating islam?

Can't we fight Islam without allying ourselves with neo-Nazis and white supremacists?

Absolutely. I'll second that.

But let's say that a "hot" war breaks out in Europe, between the neo-nazis and the Islamofascists. What should America do about it? Stay out of it, and let whatever happens, happens, including Islamofascists winning?Or maybe we support the weaker one, so that they beat the snot out of each other, even if it means supporting Islamofascists? I don't have any answers to that, but it does look like a confrontation is coming, and I don't think that either side is going to back down.

453 Kenneth  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:24:34pm

re: #435 Silhouette

Right! The Neo-Nazis will weaken the fight against Islamism. They bring nothing to the table, and they drive good people away. And most importantly: they cannot be trusted. They will switch sides and choose a new enemy when they think the opportunity is right.

To hell with the Neo-Nazis AND the Islamofascists.

454 guftafs  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:24:38pm

re: #445 infidel Alan

I have no use for neo-Nazis but in a fight to the death (of Western Civilization) it possible to be over-fastidious about allies. Remember that the US became an ally of Stalin (about as close as you can get to the Devil himself) for a while, without turning Communist. ...

Don't think many disagree with the point as such, only

(1) US support was way to generous and trusting of Stalin,
(2) The situation then was, Great Britain had thousands and thousands civilians and soldiers dying, the Soviets had at their worst hour military parades in Moscow that were dispatched immediately to the front (I think it was the parades to celebrate the Revolution in November '41)

That's desperate. This haven't even begun to look desperate. I hate self-panickers.

455 Killian Bundy  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:24:44pm

re: #447 Totally Berserk

Nice avatar.

/very '70s

456 Amillennialist  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:24:55pm

re: #378 guftafs

re: #358 Amillennialist

re: #318 Yank in the EU

re: #312 Amillennialist

...
They're intelligent people with good intentions. They can find a way to reconcile without compromising the truth.

Good thing you're here to tell us what they think?

/shakes head

Perhaps you should re-read what I wrote.

First, I was referring to Charles also with the contraction "they're." Are you implying that Charles is neither bright nor of good will?

Second, describing authors based on what I've read of their writings is not "telling us what they think."

Third, launching vacuous emotional attacks at anyone who doesn't immediately demonize Atlas, Gates, etc., is intellectually dishonest.

457 Yank in the EU  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:25:13pm

#442: strongly

458 jeppo[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:25:50pm
459 kuchuklambat  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:25:58pm

yeah, last time Europe was ripped up in a war between Nazis and Communists -- would y'all stand by with "let them both win"? Yes, it's too bad we couldn't take on both of them, but as it was, would you have shower with contempt the lend-lease deal of sending weapons and materiel to the evil soviet empire?

460 Render  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:26:40pm

re: #445 infidel Alan

The "alliance" with Stalinist Soviet Russia lasted less than three years and was decidedly one-sided, in the Soviets favor.

With the wars end, the Soviets wasted no time in becoming the most dangerous and longest lasting enemy in American history.

We should repeat that?

THINK
NOT,
R

461 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:26:58pm

re: #441 Stonemason

re: #433 jcm

If nothing else, LGF is consistant...it took three posts to get to Rachel when pancakes were mentioned!

Caterpillar (among others) is partnering with Force Protection Inc. in their line of MRAPs.

St. Pancake must be flipping over in her grave.

462 Amillennialist  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:27:05pm

re: #424 jcm

re: #396 Amillennialist

That's well and good. Reconcile...

. . .

Allying with the racist groups of Europe is counter productive in the short term. It damages our ability to wage the war on the home front. In the long term it is counterproductive because after the jihadist wars are won, we have to purge the fascist and nazi elements to restore liberty.

It up to GoV and others to recognize this.

I agree.

463 Whiterasta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:27:30pm

re: #412 Sharmuta

I choose neither. Is that an option?! No fascists in my foxhole! Thank you

Hear, hear!

Well said. Thank you.

464 snowcrash  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:27:46pm

re: #451 nyc redneck
My dog would eat anything!

465 Athos  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:28:15pm

re: #445 infidel Alan

I have no use for neo-Nazis but in a fight to the death (of Western Civilization) it possible to be over-fastidious about allies. Remember that the US became an ally of Stalin (about as close as you can get to the Devil himself) for a while, without turning Communist.

Regardless, there is plenty that we have or should have learned from that as well. There is the little thing about in order to be 'good allies' we sold millions of Eastern Europeans into another hell that lasted nearly 50 more years.

While you may feel comfortable to define evil in degrees of nuance, I, and many like me do not. Morally and ethically, the Eurofascists are not different from the islamofascists to me. I am very comfortable in a decision to oppose them both and would prefer to do that than to surrender one whit of principle to bow to nuancing evil.

466 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:28:36pm

Rejoice: The future will be cloned....

First human embyros cloned


A small San Diego laboratory claims it's done something no one else in the world has.

Samuel Wood, fertility doctor and C.E.O. of Stemagen says his company has created the first cloned human embryos.

We're able to integrate both the fertility aspects of this as well as the stem cell or cloning procedures," said Wood.

Doctor Wood, his research partner and C.F.O of the company Andrew French, says they used their own skin cells to make the cloned embryos.
....
Dr. Wood said, "Our eventual goal therapeutic cloning, if we can develop patient specific stem cell lines I think that'll go a long ways toward making stem cells a real viable option for therapeutic use."


Science!

467 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:28:45pm

re: #458 jeppo

So....if the only people that were protesting were nazis- you'd be all for it?

468 Sunlight  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:28:48pm

re: #7 konservo

But they're pro-Israel! ! !

/

Maybe just so there's somewhere to run off the few Jews left in the EU to?

469 guftafs  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:29:26pm

re: #456 Amillennialist

Perhaps you should re-read what I wrote.

First, I was referring to Charles also with the contraction "they're." Are you implying that Charles is neither bright nor of good will?

Second, describing authors based on what I've read of their writings is not "telling us what they think."

Third, launching vacuous emotional attacks at anyone who doesn't immediately demonize Atlas, Gates, etc., is intellectually dishonest.

I did read what you wrote. If they are intelligent people they can talk for themselves and you should respect what they are saying. Neh?

/launching yet another vacuous something-against-something

470 Amillennialist  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:30:21pm

re: #410 Sharmuta

re: #402 Amillennialist

Okay- I won't stop you from trying to get gov, bj and friends to admit they were wrong, and apologize to Charles for the antagonism, but I do think you're going to need this.

:)

471 ec marm  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:30:45pm

John Edwards in Nevada: "I don't think you need an AK-47 to hunt." Pauses for tremendous round of applause. A smattering of hands softly clap. Interesting. Back to the focus group with that one John.

472 infidel4ever  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:31:09pm

re: #431 njdhockeyfan

re: #421 infidel4ever


re: #412 Sharmuta

re: #407 Live4Truth
I choose neither. Is that an option?! No fascists in my foxhole! Thank you.

But are you going to waste your time and energy fighting them while both of you have the same goal: defeating islam?

Can't we fight Islam without allying ourselves with neo-Nazis and white supremacists?


Sure. And we should. And we should keep on exposing them for what they really are, as Charles has been doing. Keep the public informed. But as long as they are fighting against islam, don't waste time and energy fighting VB & Co. Use them, as the US supplied Russia to fight against Hitler. Just don't sell half of Europe down the river again as the Allies did at Yalta.

473 Alouette  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:31:17pm

re: #452 Live4Truth

But let's say that a "hot" war breaks out in Europe, between the neo-nazis and the Islamofascists. What should America do about it?

Make popcorn.

474 njdhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:31:20pm

Found a new Ron Paul blog...

Is Ron Paul Racist ?

475 bulwrk  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:31:47pm

At the end of WWII many surrendering Nazi units thought it was a pointless waste of time to fight each other and that we should join forces to fight the real enemy the Russians.

we told them to get f**ked then to.

476 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:32:23pm
477 guftafs  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:32:24pm

re: #473 Alouette

re: #452 Live4Truth

But let's say that a "hot" war breaks out in Europe, between the neo-nazis and the Islamofascists. What should America do about it?

Make popcorn.

... and watch the news casts and count their blessings they live in the US.

478 nyc redneck  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:32:31pm

re: #471 ec marm

John Edwards in Nevada: "I don't think you need an AK-47 to hunt." Pauses for tremendous round of applause. A smattering of hands softly clap. Interesting. Back to the focus group with that one John.

prince john is so removed from the real world.

479 ec marm  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:32:36pm

re: #473 Alouette

Make popcorn.


With or without butter? We have to concerned about our national health, you know.

480 Stonemason  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:32:39pm

re: #456 Amillennialist

The people here at work come to me with questions 'cause they think I know stuff, and I tell them that it isn't that I know stuff, it is that I am willing to learn new stuff.

Take your nick for instance...learned something new today, thank you.

/I sure do like LGF

481 J.S.  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:32:46pm

It's horrific if a legitimate anti-Jihadist movement gets co-opted by neo-nazi types. But speaking of co-optation..

I've noticed a "new" term (used by certain MSM commentators) -- that's "Independents" -- it's becoming something of a buzz word for, say, support of Ron Paul (and others of that sort). Lou Dobbs right now is going to feature Obama's preacher (the "church" which hands out awards to Louis Farrakhan, etc.). Now Dobbs is asking: "is the preacher a racist or just an Independent thinker?" Yeah, let's cloak the language used by Racial Supremacists into more "acceptable" terms, like "independent" then attach the word "thinker" Alright...that makes racist speech oh so much more acceptable. So sophisticated for CNN types.

482 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:32:52pm

Orde,
If you're still around I was reading your spinoff link and I know you have a unique perspective on religion. Would you support removing the tax exemption for churches?

483 Kenneth  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:33:23pm

re: #452 Live4Truth

But let's say that a "hot" war breaks out in Europe, between the neo-nazis and the Islamofascists. What should America do about it? Stay out of it, and let whatever happens, happens, including Islamofascists winning?Or maybe we support the weaker one, so that they beat the snot out of each other, even if it means supporting Islamofascists? I don't have any answers to that, but it does look like a confrontation is coming, and I don't think that either side is going to back down.

Let's say we stay in the real world: the neo-nazis are a small & isolated bunch of freaks who like to march around in silly paramilitary uniforms. If they ever start a riot with the Islamists there might be some blood spilled on either side, but it won't be a "hot war". The authorities will step in and arrest the neo-nazis, ban their parties and extend even greater protection and apologies to their Muslim population. Reasonable people who speak out against the growing Islamification of Europe will be further marginalized. In the end, the Islamists win.

That's the biggest problem with the Neo-Nazis.

484 godfrey  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:33:24pm

re: #466 Killgore Trout

Science!

Science! gone amok.

485 Yank in the EU  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:33:30pm

re: #453 Kenneth

Right! The Neo-Nazis will weaken the fight against Islamism.

This is the main point.

Also, the "Stalin anology," which has been served up countless times to justify uniting with the white nationalists and neo-Nazis, is flawed because we are now convincing people and building the movement against Islamization, rather than currently engaged in kinetic warfare where people are certain of the imminent, mortal threat. Groups such as the VB and the NPD will destroy Europe's cause against the jihad if they become accepted by conservatives.

486 Ma Sands  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:33:58pm

Speaking of Rachel Corrie, I just saw, on a news release I got in an e-mail from The Israel Project, this bit of info that I'd not come across before:

An autopsy revealed that the bulldozer never rolled over Corrie: she was killed by debris dislodged by the bulldozer, which struck her head.
487 infidel Alan  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:33:59pm

re: #460 Render

re: #445 infidel Alan

The "alliance" with Stalinist Soviet Russia lasted less than three years and was decidedly one-sided, in the Soviets favor.

With the wars end, the Soviets wasted no time in becoming the most dangerous and longest lasting enemy in American history.

We should repeat that?

THINK
NOT,
R

Soviet military losses were 9 million; Soviet military and civilian losses were 25 million people. 300,000 American troops were killed in WWII. Hardly one-sided in the Soviets' favor

488 Silhouette  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:34:28pm

re: #481 J.S.

Now Dobbs is asking: "is the preacher a racist or just an Independent thinker?"

He's thinking outside the box....of decency.

489 WhiteRasta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:34:44pm

re: #461 Slumbering Behemoth

I recently bought a pair of Rachel Cory work boots.

Made by Caterpillar, or at least the Caterpillar logo is on them.

Man, I love those boots.

Light, comfortable, long lasting and, most importantly, made in the USA!

490 DesertSage  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:35:18pm

re: #455 Killian Bundy

re: #447 Totally Berserk

Nice avatar.

/very '70s

Its too bad that Tom Laughlin is such a moonbat.

491 Athos  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:35:32pm

re: #472 infidel4ever

re: #431 njdhockeyfan


re: #421 infidel4ever

re: #412 Sharmuta

re: #407 Live4Truth
I choose neither. Is that an option?! No fascists in my foxhole! Thank you.

But are you going to waste your time and energy fighting them while both of you have the same goal: defeating islam?

Can't we fight Islam without allying ourselves with neo-Nazis and white supremacists?

Sure. And we should. And we should keep on exposing them for what they really are, as Charles has been doing. Keep the public informed. But as long as they are fighting against islam, don't waste time and energy fighting VB & Co. Use them, as the US supplied Russia to fight against Hitler. Just don't sell half of Europe down the river again as the Allies did at Yalta.

No. That delivers the one thing that they want and need most to grow their movements from the fringe - respectability and legitimacy. It is morally and ethically wrong. Our 'alliance' with Stalin generated far more respectability towards 'Uncle Joe' that hundreds of Walter Duranty's. Not again. There is no need to compromise our principles here and deliver something that the Eurofascists cannot obtain on their own - legitimacy.

492 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:35:43pm
493 Silhouette  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:36:35pm

re: #483 Kenneth

the neo-nazis are a small & isolated bunch of freaks who like to march around in silly paramilitary uniforms.

And will stay so unless we legitamize them by joining with them in the anti-jihad struggle. We empower them to become our enemies tomorrow by using them to fight our enemies today. And they are openingly admitting that is what they are doing.

494 threecoloursblue  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:36:37pm

re: #445 infidel Alan

The alliance with the soviets was massively in the allies favour. Hitler sent 650 divisions into russia. Only 250 made it out. Imagine the Allies having to fight all the way to the Urals instead of Berlin ?

495 Yank in the EU  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:37:28pm

Crap, working and posting at the same time amount to many errors - analogy!

496 kuchuklambat  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:37:39pm

re: #472 infidel4ever

Words of wisdom, infidel. In times of war, against tough odds, unsavory alliances are made; we should work not to get swindled like we were by the Soviets post-WWII.
Thank you, Charles, for solid reporting, but those who plan to make popcorn watching another European war will not catch on until their own hinds are fried.

497 Ojoe  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:38:13pm

"I don't want to vote fascist but something has to be done."

–Said to me by an Italian leftist, in Italy, last month, re the islamics.

498 Alouette  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:38:37pm

re: #479 ec marm

re: #473 Alouette


Make popcorn.

With or without butter? We have to concerned about our national health, you know.

I use that nonstick spray and some salt.

499 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:39:03pm

re: #484 godfrey

It's science that will most likely save your life if you live long enough.

500 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:39:38pm
501 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:39:49pm

re: #491 Athos

Indeed- we don't need to normalize evil by turning a blind eye to it, or bestowing whitewashing titles such as "allies" upon them. They desperately desire mainstream status- we should deny it to them at every opportunity. I don't believe they care about islamization- they only care about power, and islamism is a great wagon on which to hitch their star.

502 Ojoe  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:39:52pm

re: #496 kuchuklambat

"I would at least make a favourable reference to the Devil in the House of Commons."

—Winston Churchill

503 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:40:02pm

re: #489 WhiteRasta

My friend swears by Danners, can't afford them myself (and don't really need 'em right now anyway).

He's had the same pair for over a year, which is extraordinary considering that a good pair of Red Wings only last about four months in his line of work.

504 Stonemason  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:40:07pm

re: #486 Ma Sands

shhhhhhhh

Don't let that out, I get way to much enjoyment from the St. Pancake threads!

505 jeppo[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:40:20pm
506 WhiteRasta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:40:36pm

re: #492 buzzsawmonkey

..."She made the mistake of believing that she was something more than a tool to be used at will..."

She made the mistake of laying down with terrorists, thinking she was still at Bezerkly or whatever moonbat university she was at.

Silly, naive titmouse. Useful idiot.

Gone and forgotten.

507 Ojoe  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:41:05pm

re: #506 WhiteRasta

flat forgotten

508 njdhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:41:06pm

re: #500 buzzsawmonkey

re: #498 Alouette

Olive oil to pop. No butter. Parve and delicious! Salt to taste.


No thanks, I'll take mine with gobs of melted butter.

/I'm old school

509 Athos  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:41:29pm

re: #487 infidel Alan

re: #460 Render


re: #445 infidel Alan

The "alliance" with Stalinist Soviet Russia lasted less than three years and was decidedly one-sided, in the Soviets favor.

With the wars end, the Soviets wasted no time in becoming the most dangerous and longest lasting enemy in American history.

We should repeat that?

THINK
NOT,
R


Soviet military losses were 9 million; Soviet military and civilian losses were 25 million people. 300,000 American troops were killed in WWII. Hardly one-sided in the Soviets' favor

On the other side of the ledger was Eastern Europe handed to Stalin to be subjugated from 1945-1989/91. Millions deprived of freedom and liberty and forced to live in a communist police state.

510 nolocon  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:41:40pm

Yikes.
Bin Laden son wants to be peace activist

"Omar — one of bin Laden's 19 children — raised a tabloid storm last year when he married a 52-year-old British woman, Jane Felix-Browne, who took the name Zaina Alsabah. Now the couple say they want to be advocates, planning a 3,000-mile horse race across North Africa to draw attention to the cause of peace.

"It's about changing the ideas of the Western mind. A lot of people think Arabs — especially the bin Ladens, especially the sons of Osama — are all terrorists. This is not the truth," Omar told the AP last week at a cafe in a Cairo shopping mall.


Omar doesn't criticize his father and says Osama bin Laden is just trying to defend the Islamic world.

"My father thinks he will be good for defending the Arab people and stop anyone from hurting the Arab or Muslim people any place in the world," he said, noting that the West didn't have a problem with his father when he was fighting the Russians in Afghanistan in the 1980s.

Omar is convinced a truce between the West and al-Qaida is possible.

"My father is asking for a truce but I don't think there is any government (that) respects him. At the same time they do not respect him, why everywhere in the world, they want to fight him? There is a contradiction," he said.

511 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:41:53pm

re: #505 jeppo

do you hope for this new group's downfall,


I do.

512 realwest  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:41:59pm

re: #412 Sharmuta I agree completely Sharm. Why is it up to US to find an alternative to White Nazi Fascists and Islamofascists?
Europe has a long history of being in love with White Nazi's (albeit frequently in disguise) and NO, I'm not saying Europeans are Nazi's; what I'm saying is that Europeans have a long history of not wanting to get involved in their own self-preservation and are always looking for someone to stand up for them.
Since BP, VB and the rest appear to be willing to stand up for Europe against the rising tide of Islamofascism, it would appear that, as usual, most Europeans are willing to let them. I'm afraid that it's really not that most (but certainly not all) Europeans can't see what's happening, it's that they don't care what happens as long as Islam is defeated.
Here in the USA it is indeed "Not in my foxhole."

513 threecoloursblue  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:42:11pm

re: #499 Killgore Trout

My old oilfield boss - from New Mexico - used to say to me..... Sheeit Irish..if I'd knowed I was going to live so long I'd have taken real good care of myself.

514 stevieray  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:42:37pm

re: #497 Ojoe

"I don't want to vote fascist but something has to be done."

–Said to me by an Italian leftist, in Italy, last month, re the islamics.

Interesting... things are getting so bad and so obvious it is breaking through the thick p.c. shell of leftists.

515 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:42:38pm

re: #505 jeppo

I hope Mr. Wilders forms his own group rather than align with the likes of dewiter. That you would even pose the question as making it "more mainstream" should say something to you, jeppo.

516 Amillennialist  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:42:49pm

re: #442 Yank in the EU

re: #358 Amillennialist

In short, the major problem with your idea is that GoV, Fjordman and Brussels Journal advocate joining ranks with the VB . . . .

. . . I think it's absolutely the right and necessary move for fighting the jihad and for the conservative mov't to take a distance from VB, BNP, et. al. and their supporters. These people have seen the clear evidence of serious problems in the VB such as . . . .

A great part of the problem is the continual, fallacious insistence by VB and BNP supporters that there are only two choices: multiculturalism and Islamization or joining with the white nationalist movements . . . For my part, I also have strongly agreed with the stance LGF has taken on this issue as both necessary in terms of survival and because it is right.

Very valuable comments. Thank you for the summary.

I do not advocate compromising principle for any reason.

517 Ma Sands  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:42:50pm

re: #504 Stonemason

Well.....respect for the dead is one of the West's tenets.......no?

518 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:43:12pm

re: #513 threecoloursblue

I'm starting to think the same thing myself.

519 realwest  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:43:37pm

PIMF: BNP

520 WhiteRasta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:44:16pm

re: #507 Ojoe

I'm crushed by your reply.....

521 Alouette  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:44:49pm

re: #500 buzzsawmonkey

re: #498 Alouette

Olive oil to pop. No butter. Parve and delicious! Salt to taste.

I take 1/3 c. of regular popcorn kernals, add 1 tsp. olive oil, put in a brown paper bag in the microwave. Pops up better than those microwave bags at a fraction the price.

522 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:45:11pm
523 ciaospirit  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:45:17pm

re: #500 buzzsawmonkey

re: #498 Alouette

Olive oil to pop. No butter. Parve and delicious! Salt to taste.

I call that Italian popcorn. It is delicious.

524 Ojoe  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:45:28pm

Flattery will get you nowhere

525 realwest  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:45:37pm

re: #513 threecoloursblueHuh, I've heard that quote attributed to Mickey Mantle in about a zillion places.

526 threecoloursblue  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:45:41pm

re: #514 stevieray

Why do you assume the Italian was a leftist ?

527 konservo  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:45:59pm

re: #393 jeppo


I would have preferred the UKIP, but it would be nice if *someone* protested the Islamization of London or Birmingham or Manchester or Bradford or...

Heh. Looks like jeppo's consistent too, still using the same old fallacious arguments.

jeppo, if you care that much, why don't you start your own protest?

It would be nice if you wouldn't support neo-Nazis and fascists just because you think they're the only groups that care.

528 Ojoe  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:47:05pm

re: #526 threecoloursblue

Long long friendship

529 Amillennialist  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:47:49pm

re: #469 guftafs

re: #456 Amillennialist


Perhaps you should re-read what I wrote.

First, I was referring to Charles also with the contraction "they're." Are you implying that Charles is neither bright nor of good will?

Second, describing authors based on what I've read of their writings is not "telling us what they think."

Third, launching vacuous emotional attacks at anyone who doesn't immediately demonize Atlas, Gates, etc., is intellectually dishonest.

I did read what you wrote. If they are intelligent people they can talk for themselves and you should respect what they are saying. Neh?

/launching yet another vacuous something-against-something

I said they (including Charles) are intelligent and well-intentioned. You described that as "telling us what they think."

So, are you claiming that they're saying they're dumb and bad-intentioned?

530 Silhouette  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:47:56pm

re: #526 threecoloursblue

re: #514 stevieray

Why do you assume the Italian was a leftist ?

Why do you assume he's assuming?

531 threecoloursblue  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:48:16pm

re: #525 realwest

This guy was definately not Mickey Mantle! This guy was the best oilfield super I've ever worked under.A real gent....and you find out who the real gents are when you're in the oil patch and you're not American.

532 Stonemason  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:48:17pm

re: #517 Ma Sands

Shucks Ma...yes it is.

I think the 'poking fun' is more aimed at those that supported her in her demise, those that still do not understand that she died trying to protect terrorists.

/I guess now I won't enjoy those threads as much anymore 'cause I'll feel guilty.

533 Thanos  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:48:21pm

Well that's that... me publishing the third part of my essay series on VB would be rather ridiculous and anti-climactic at this point, there's no point to it now.

Atlas: You still support VB?

534 rappmandu  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:48:35pm

O/T

Brilliantly clear today in the South Bay. I predict a nice supertanker shot from Charles tomorrow.

535 realwest  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:48:43pm

re: #497 Ojoe Please see my #512. You've provided a completely perfect example of what I was saying.

536 guftafs  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:48:51pm

re: #529 Amillennialist

re: #469 guftafs

re: #456 Amillennialist


Perhaps you should re-read what I wrote.

First, I was referring to Charles also with the contraction "they're." Are you implying that Charles is neither bright nor of good will?

Second, describing authors based on what I've read of their writings is not "telling us what they think."

Third, launching vacuous emotional attacks at anyone who doesn't immediately demonize Atlas, Gates, etc., is intellectually dishonest.

I did read what you wrote. If they are intelligent people they can talk for themselves and you should respect what they are saying. Neh?

/launching yet another vacuous something-against-something

I said they (including Charles) are intelligent and well-intentioned. You described that as "telling us what they think."

So, are you claiming that they're saying they're dumb and bad-intentioned?

No.

537 Palandine  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:49:09pm

re: #117 cagney

The ideal solution would be to build a common identity between the majority white and ethnic races. This can be done through nationalism

This is why I worry. A country will be ripped apart at the seams without a sense of common identity and purpose. Zimbabwe, Kenya, Nepal, Yugoslavia, and other examples too numerous to mention prove that if your primary allegiance is to your tribe or community or any other group outside of your country, the center cannot hold, to paraphrae Yeats.

It's pretty easy to be nationalistic in America. We all came from different places and decided to be one group. I'm not sugar-coating the hisory of slavery or what the colonials and the British did to the native Americans, but I've always looked at my fellow Americans as my fellow Americans and not "that black guy, that Hispanic, that Protestant, that gay guy, etc."

But I fear that's going away, both here and in the UK. We're being taught in our schools that our ethnic group, color, orientation are what are paramount, and that our shared history is nothing to be proud of, cherish, or be willing to fight for. We are heading for tribalism.

The filthy racist fascists aren't "Nationalists" at all--they don't love Britain, or France, or Sweden, or America. They love being white, and looing down on everyone else. That's THEIR tribe, and it's just as Balkanizing as any other form of tribalism.

I long for a return to true nationalism, a commitment to our shared values. I fear it won't hapen, but it's the only way to keep Western Civilization great. We must unite--from many, one.

538 threecoloursblue  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:49:25pm

re: #528 Ojoe

OK....just wondering. Many here are kneejerk about europeans.

539 Amillennialist  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:49:47pm

re: #480 Stonemason

re: #456 Amillennialist

The people here at work come to me with questions 'cause they think I know stuff, and I tell them that it isn't that I know stuff, it is that I am willing to learn new stuff.

Take your nick for instance...learned something new today, thank you.

/I sure do like LGF

:)

I hope you visit my 'blog sometime.

540 ciaospirit  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:50:15pm

re: #510 nolocon

The 26 year old wannabe peace activist married a 52 year old British woman. Think he wants to get to Britain? He also said:

There, Omar says he trained at an al-Qaida camp but in 2000 he decided there must be another way and he left his father, returning to his homeland of Saudi Arabia.

"I don't want to be in that situation to just fight. I like to find another way and this other way may be like we do now, talking," he said in English.

Anybody convinced?

541 Iron Fist  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:50:22pm

re: #106 derkrieger,

Understand, by allying with the fascists you doom Europe if you fail. Americans WON"T send their sons and daughters to fight and die to save a fascist Europe from the Islamofascists. The most we'd do is rescue your nukes to keep them from falling into Islamofascists' hands.

If you don't use them on yourselves to burn out the Islamofascists.

542 Ma Sands  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:50:23pm

re: #532 Stonemason

:)

543 Stonemason  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:51:06pm

re: #539 Amillennialist

I will when I get home...blocked from the work computer.

544 realwest  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:51:09pm

re: #541 Iron Fist Hey Fist! Please see my #512!

545 guftafs  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:51:39pm

re: #529 Amillennialist

re: #469 guftafs

re: #456 Amillennialist


Perhaps you should re-read what I wrote.

First, I was referring to Charles also with the contraction "they're." Are you implying that Charles is neither bright nor of good will?

Second, describing authors based on what I've read of their writings is not "telling us what they think."

Third, launching vacuous emotional attacks at anyone who doesn't immediately demonize Atlas, Gates, etc., is intellectually dishonest.

I did read what you wrote. If they are intelligent people they can talk for themselves and you should respect what they are saying. Neh?

/launching yet another vacuous something-against-something

I said they (including Charles) are intelligent and well-intentioned. You described that as "telling us what they think."

So, are you claiming that they're saying they're dumb and bad-intentioned?

... and I wasn't referring to your describing them as intelligent and well-intentioned as putting words in their mouth. It was your saying they should get together, straighten out the misunderstandings, etc. that is speaking for them.

If they are intelligent they don't need anyone telling them what to say or do?

546 Render  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:53:25pm

re: #487 infidel Alan

The US supplied the Soviet Union with some $9 Billion worth of goods and materials during WW2. Included in this were some 7,200 tanks (of which at least 6,300 arrived), over 432,000 trucks, and just over 14,000 aircraft. Great Britain and Canada supplied the Soviets with about 5,200 tanks (of which about 4,600 arrived), 4,000 planes, and over 2,500 tracked Carriers.

In return, the Soviets refused to allow Allied long range bombers to land in territory they controlled, with occasional exceptions. The Soviets confiscated Allied aircraft that did force land in their territory and interned the Allied aircrews that flew them. The Soviets refused to attack Japan until late 1945. The Soviet armies stood and watched as the Polish Home Army fought and died in Warsaw.

If the Soviets had not allied themselves with their 1939 “enemy of my enemy” against Poland, maybe they might not have lost so many people...

READ
MORE,
R

547 Silhouette  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:54:08pm

re: #535 realwest

re: #497 Ojoe Please see my #512. You've provided a completely perfect example of what I was saying.

Interesting point. Not that they're closet nazis, not that they're stupid, but that they don't care who does the work, as long as it isn't them.

Maybe a consequence of the nanny state.

548 stevieray  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:54:47pm

re: #526 threecoloursblue

re: #514 stevieray

Why do you assume the Italian was a leftist ?

Because ojoe called him an italian leftist in his comment.

OT Just watched Jonah Goldberg, author of "Liberal Fascism" on Glenn Beck's show. Good stuff. Catch the replay if you can. The segment begins about 40 minutes into the show.

549 guftafs  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:55:41pm

re: #547 Silhouette

re: #535 realwest

re: #497 Ojoe Please see my #512. You've provided a completely perfect example of what I was saying.

Interesting point. Not that they're closet nazis, not that they're stupid, but that they don't care who does the work, as long as it isn't them.

Maybe a consequence of the nanny state.

I think that's a factor. It's a reflex, to expect the state, or authority, to provide the answers. Very unhealthy, very dangerous.

550 realwest  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:55:43pm

re: #547 Silhouette I certainly think it's ONE of the consequences of the Nanny State!

551 so.cal.swede  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:56:07pm

re: #137 Charles

More pictures:

[Link: legacyeditorial.gettyimages.com...]

Hm. i stand corrected. I found it extremely weird that only an Australian newspaper would run anything about this.

552 njdhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:57:06pm

I don't visit the sewer for days. I go look now and see this diary headline...

The "Magical Negro" argument

Kostards seem to be consistently stupid.

553 Athos  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:58:13pm

re: #546 Render

One can make a very strong case that Stalin killed more Russians than Hitler......Many estimates are the 40M range between 1923-1954. Focusing on the evil of Hitler, many miss the true evil of Stalin (or Mao).

554 jeppo[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 4:59:09pm
555 kuchuklambat  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 5:00:21pm

re: #546 Render

and yet -- are you saying we should not have allied with the soviets, stood by, took both on, or what?
or perhaps allied but with eyes open, negotiating tighter deals and preparing better for the iron curtain to be drawn right after hitler's defeat?

556 Kenneth  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 5:01:19pm

re: #546 Render

Good points. These fools who argue we should support the neo-nazis fight the Islamists because we supported the USSR during WWII, miss the lessons of WWII:

1. The Nazis can't be trusted: they attacked their allies, the USSR.
2. Communists can't be trusted: the reneged on their promises for democratic election in Eastern Europe
3. Both the Nazis and the Communists slaughtered millions of innocent civilians.
4. The Islamists supported the Nazis.

If democracy and freedom are to survive, we should not ally with any of them. We should fight against all of them.

557 Athos  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 5:02:17pm

re: #554 jeppo

Sorry, but if your analogy was actually accurate, you would be citing Stormfront, LewRockwell.com, and others of the same ilk as the focus for a movement of Republican candidates to the right. But given your predisposition to attempt to attract and generate legitimacy to the fascist organizations, I am not surprised by the fallacy in the analogy.

558 Yank in the EU  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 5:03:22pm

I've concluded that there are four main reasons for the VB's pro-Israel position; these may explain the sudden change only a few years after the leadership had denied the Holocaust.

(1) Entryism; antisemitism is not a viable position among legitimate parties on the right. Hence they strategically shifted toward the opportunist position, which is also seen to be against Islam.

(2) To settle fears of attacks against Jews. During WWII the party's founders (as Dewinter affirmed) participated in the round-up and deportation of Jews from Antwerp (cf. Staf de Clercq).

(3) Jews and the VB have a common enemy in Antwerp and the Orthodox Jews there are known to be pretty tough. There appear to be financial connections as well via the diamond trade.

(4) They support the ideal of a state based on race / ethnicity (which of course is not factually correct - Israelis are not at all ethnically homogeneous, but it is how Israel is seen by some in Europe). This what they talk about for Flanders. 'We are not racist. We support the Jewish state and, in the same way, we also support the Flemish state, which happens to be historically white.'

559 Iron Fist  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 5:08:20pm

re: #512 realwest,

I agree. It isn't up to the United States to save Europe, nor does it sound like we are being asked.

And we have our own problems.

560 infidel4ever  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 5:08:49pm
I long for a return to true nationalism, a commitment to our shared values. I fear it won't hapen, but it's the only way to keep Western Civilization great. We must unite--from many, one.

We are not even allowed to be nationalists, we have to be "Europeans" now, remember.

561 Kenneth  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 5:10:02pm

re: #557 Athos

re: #554 jeppo

Sorry, but if your analogy was actually accurate, you would be citing Stormfront, LewRockwell.com, and others of the same ilk as the focus for a movement of Republican candidates to the right...

You mean candidates like Ron Paul?

562 J.S.  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 5:10:20pm

There's an article from Der Spiegel...http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518 ,526225,00.html

From what I understand, a new party was formed called "Pro NRW" -- primarily to oppose a mosque being built in Cologne (a very liberal city). According to the article: "The NPD -- which tends to line up with Israel-hating Muslim groups -- has tried to block the new competition by mounting similar anti-mosque efforts. " Thus we get the "new" "Cities Against Islamisation" going...as competition against the Pro NRW party. (in other words, the Far Right fears any legitimate (?), political party -- and the NPD will co-opt them).

563 Kenneth  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 5:14:02pm

re: #554 jeppo

Sometimes it takes so-called extremists like the VB and Wilders to take a controversial (and possibly life-threatening) anti-Islamist stand in order to get the more mainstream parties to even pay attention to the rapid Islamization of Europe.

You have it backwards: the neo-nazi groups like VB & BNP de-legitimize anti-Islamism. Their activities will push mainstream parties to further protect the Islamists.

564 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 5:18:59pm

re: #562 J.S.

Yeah- I linked that in #13 and Yank in the EU said he'd try to look into that party more when he has some time. Sure sounds to me like they could be the German party alluded to in Charles' link.

565 Athos  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 5:21:39pm

re: #561 Kenneth

RP is clearly a politician who does not distance himself from these groups, their support, and their funds. Oh, he will deny a decade plus racist history, he will deny common platform with the racist neo-Confederates like Rockwell (incl. von Mises Institute), he will deny accepting / sharing the viewpoints of Stormfront and Troofers - but it's all words not actions. Pat Buchanan, while not running now, is another politician who is (very) comfortable with the neofascist support.

566 jeppo[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 5:22:06pm
567 infidel Alan  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 5:23:02pm

re: #556 Kenneth

re: #546 Render

Good points. These fools who argue we should support the neo-nazis fight the Islamists because we supported the USSR during WWII . . .

Perhaps it is possible to have a difference of opinion without namecalling, misquoting and setting up straw men? I happen to think not all European nationalists are Nazi thugs. You're entitled to a different opinion.

568 mdaspinall  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 5:26:22pm

Unfortunately the fears on which the Fascists preyed in the video, are evident all over Britain and every White family I know and every working man across every building site in Britain I have ever met. They may not agree with the BNP and not vote for them but their opinions are as one.
This is the truth, the only difference being in the ways to confront the fears. Sadly more and more whites will turn to the BNP as a last resort as the main Party politicians seem to totally disregard the majority feelings on any issue whatsoever. By the way I have only ever seen 1 Muslim (an engineer for Shepherds) on any construction site whatsoever in 22 years - tells you something (or does it ?). Do a straw poll maybe ? Maybe we are all racist - who knows ? although by contrast the Sikhs do very well and are much respected, even though the majority still dislike them. They gained this respect due to sheer endeavour in the concrete pouring gangs at which they excel..

569 Yank in the EU  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 5:28:10pm

I've never heard anyone here say they have a problem with European nationalism in general. This can be either good or bad, ethnically inclusive or ethnically exclusive. It is racial nationalism and white nationalism, as forwarded by the BNP and the VB, that is inherently flawed and dangerous.

570 Ojoe  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 5:30:25pm

re: #550 realwest

Note that in WW2 and 1, the unsavoury types were enlisted merely for fighting squabbles internal to the West.

Now, the enemy is outside the culture, and the phenomenon we are talking about here could catch fire much faster and be a bigger fire.

571 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 5:31:28pm

re: #566 jeppo

I have a real problem with you continuing to lump Mr. Wilders in with the likes of vb. He's not aligning with them as his absence from this new group suggests.

572 threecoloursblue  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 5:31:58pm

re: #569 Yank in the EU

I'm against nationalism. And I regard patriotism as Dr. Johnson did, as the last refuge of the scoundrel.

573 lummox  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 5:32:14pm

I detect a minority opinion on this thread that espouses aligning with the lesser of two evils. That entails holding forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

Hat Tip Da_Beerfreak

574 Live4Truth  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 5:34:53pm

re: #483 Kenneth

re: #452 Live4Truth

But let's say that a "hot" war breaks out in Europe, between the neo-nazis and the Islamofascists. What should America do about it? Stay out of it, and let whatever happens, happens, including Islamofascists winning?Or maybe we support the weaker one, so that they beat the snot out of each other, even if it means supporting Islamofascists? I don't have any answers to that, but it does look like a confrontation is coming, and I don't think that either side is going to back down.

Let's say we stay in the real world: the neo-nazis are a small & isolated bunch of freaks who like to march around in silly paramilitary uniforms. If they ever start a riot with the Islamists there might be some blood spilled on either side, but it won't be a "hot war". The authorities will step in and arrest the neo-nazis, ban their parties and extend even greater protection and apologies to their Muslim population. Reasonable people who speak out against the growing Islamification of Europe will be further marginalized. In the end, the Islamists win.

That's the biggest problem with the Neo-Nazis.

So what you're saying is that a hot war between neo-nazis and jihadis is not a realistic possibility, because they're too small of a group. Is that it? That may be true -- I have no idea how big they are, or whether their numbers are growing -- but it does seem that even if they're small, they could still wage a serious war, in the same way that a relatively small group of jihadis have waged war on much of the rest of the world: Sporadic terrorist attacks.

575 konservo  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 5:40:11pm
re: #554 jeppo

Sometimes it takes so-called extremists like the VB and Wilders

Jeppo, don't be so fucking intellectually dishonest. You know perfectly well that we don't consider Wilders an "extremist." You're engaging in sophistry when you link him to VB.

Please stop, you're not fooling anyone and you're not winning anyone over.

576 zuckerlilly  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 5:40:50pm

re: #13 Sharmuta

I wonder if this is the sign and German party of which they speak.

Yes. I frequently wrote about those movements called "pro-movements" like pro-Koeln, pro-NRW, pro-Munich. Their members are former or still members of the NPD, the VDU or the Republicans (Reps.)

577 J.S.  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 5:41:42pm

re: #564 Sharmuta

Oops. Didn't read the first links..Yeah, I wonder about who's who in all these parties -- is the Pro NRW just another NPD, neo-nazi Party? that Spiegel article wavers -- and I don't understand why the Pro NRW wouldn't join up with the NPD (if they have the same ideology)...And then where does this "Cities Against Islamisation" fit in -- created by whom? creation of the Pro NRW, creation of the NPD? All quite confusing...

Slightly O/T -- Lou Dobbs tonight attempted to normalize the Black church Obama attends. Oh, well, what else can one expect from a Ron Paul admirer?

578 konservo  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 5:42:04pm

re: #571 Sharmuta

My thoughts exactly.

/I should have refreshed the comments.

579 zuckerlilly  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 5:50:17pm

re: #23 Killgore Trout

re: #13 Sharmuta

Yup, that's it. VB has been using that symbol for a while now.


It is originally a German movement but VB is supporting it and has deep connections with them as well as the Austrian FPOE.

580 Render  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 5:53:12pm

"There's only a few of them, how dangerous can they be?"

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

THAT
MUCH,
R

581 zuckerlilly  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 5:53:25pm

re: #69 konservo

re: #50 Rodan


re: #47 konservo

Haider was buddies wuith Hussein.
He also admires Iran.


Yeah, he's just like the rest of the opportunistic Jew-haters.


And he is a very good friend of Ghaddafi.

582 pet85022  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 5:56:39pm

I can see the point of not wanting these groups representing the anti-jihadists movement BUT I have seen virtually nothing from any other group. Exactly what do we do in 5 years when all the Scandinavian countries democratically vote to become moslem under sharia law because the moslems will be in the majority. THe EU has made it virtually impossible to demonstrate against the Islamization of western europe.
#106 derkrieger is right, all I see at LGF is people moaning and groaning about right wing Nazis BUT no one has put forth an alternative THAT WILL WORK. Words are find BUT words will not stop the islamization of europe and eventually the US.

583 jeppo[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 5:57:31pm
584 Yank in the EU  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 5:58:27pm

re: #572 threecoloursblue

Well, I would completely disagree with you there, and I think Dr. Johnson is emphatically wrong. A deep reverence for one's nation and its history, understood not as a race or tribe based on biology but as set of common ideas and values bound together under one political system, is essential to virtue in general. A strong sense of identity that develops on the individual level through public participation in one's free, democratic nation allows the country as whole to respond to exterior threats with decency and without panicking until catastrophe is too near. This righteous but humble sense of national pride is key to the military.

The lack of patriotism is what we see in Europe today, I argue, in Paris' banlieus or Brussels' small Islamic cities, where the cities see nothing here that conflict with their nation's ideals. The moral form of nationalism emphasizes a certain tradition, certain values and often a common language, which bind individuals together and give the people as a whole a sense of belonging together, which we need as a way of basic, human transcendence. The basic dangers of communitarianism and collectivism are avoided when the shared values are based on liberty, which is a huge thing among Americans.

Socialism, on the contrary, advocates a gray, empty, plain and bland sense of international identity. These ideals can be based on reason and the French Enlightenment but there is a great deal lacking in terms of what informs the values and positive identity of the people. In my view, anti-nationalist ideology creates the circumstances in which people are eventually going to seek not common ideals and principles, but some form of tribal identity or physiological commonality, which is again part of what we are seeing as a result of the absurd internationalism of the EU. The right and decent kind of national identity is, moreover, most vital for allowing a people to share in common a set of ideas which allows them to function properly as a republic. This strong sense of identity, which is something a socialist-addled country such as Belgium lacks, allows a people to feel secure in allowing immigrants to assimilate, rather than threatened that the foreign elements will change the make-up of their nation. Without national ideals and national values, further, integration and assimilation are meaningless notions.

585 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 5:58:48pm

re: #583 jeppo

Oh! Well if "bottehond" said so, it must be true.

/

586 jeppo[deleted]  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 5:59:22pm
587 Syrah  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 6:02:33pm

This is very troubling, even though it was very predictable.

588 konservo  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 6:03:51pm

re: #586 jeppo

Yes, I'm one of The Infiltrators™ ... you know... The Subterfuge©

589 Poitiers-Lepanto  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 6:04:04pm

re: #587 Syrah

This is very troubling, even though it was very predictable.

Why is it very troubling ?
Neofascists with neofascists seems perfectly rational to me, although I would expect better than a "European Union of Fascists" from such "nationalist" types...

:-)

590 konservo  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 6:05:46pm
re: #583 jeppo

Wilders is an iconoclast like his compatriots Pim Fortuyn and Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

Both Fortuyn and Hirsi Ali have said that the VB is fascist soooo...

Your point?

591 Poitiers-Lepanto  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 6:07:23pm

re: #590 konservo

re: #583 jeppoWilders is an iconoclast like his compatriots Pim Fortuyn and Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

Both Fortuyn and Hirsi Ali have said that the VB is fascist soooo...

You're point?

His point has been, for months now, "we are fascist but you have no right to say that we are fascist"...and he goes on and on always on the same note
A symphony in F and not-F...

592 Syrah  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 6:09:00pm

re: #582 pet85022

We can't muscle in and solve Europe's problems.

We can only do what we can here at home. That is about it.

It is up to Europeans to create an anti-Jihadist movement that does not hearken back to the days of past failed Ethnic Nationalist and Racialist movements.

If the Anti-Jihadist movement in Europe becomes synonymous with Ethnic Nationalism and Racialism, it will become a very lonely and rightly despised enclave of kooks and nuts.

593 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 6:09:40pm

re: #591 Poitiers-Lepanto

Yeah- jeppo's been on "F" for awhile now.

594 haakondahl  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 6:10:05pm

re: #586 jeppo

re: #575 konservo


re: #554 jeppo
Sometimes it takes so-called extremists like the VB and Wilders

Jeppo, don't be so fucking intellectually dishonest. You know perfectly well that we don't consider Wilders an "extremist." You're engaging in sophistry when you link him to VB.
Please stop, you're not fooling anyone and you're not winning anyone over.

Who's this "we" konservo? Are you a committee?

As a matter of fact, yes. We're the National Committee to Horsewhip Fascists.

595 Spiny Norman  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 6:11:25pm

re: #586 jeppo

re: #575 konservo
re: #554 jeppo

Sometimes it takes so-called extremists like the VB and Wilders

Jeppo, don't be so fucking intellectually dishonest. You know perfectly well that we don't consider Wilders an "extremist." You're engaging in sophistry when you link him to VB.

Please stop, you're not fooling anyone and you're not winning anyone over.

Who's this "we" konservo? Are you a committee?

Well, 5 months of your posts have been more than enough to convince me that your intent is to muddy the waters.

I'm not impressed. Bored, actually.

596 Poitiers-Lepanto  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 6:12:16pm

re: #592 Syrah

re: #582 pet85022

We can't muscle in and solve Europe's problems.

We can only do what we can here at home. That is about it.

It is up to Europeans to create an anti-Jihadist movement that does not hearken back to the days of past failed Ethnic Nationalist and Racialist movements.

If the Anti-Jihadist movement in Europe becomes synonymous with Ethnic Nationalism and Racialism, it will become a very lonely and rightly despised enclave of kooks and nuts.

And after months and months... they keep coming here and asking the same questions and getting the same answer...

597 Poitiers-Lepanto  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 6:13:37pm

re: #594 haakondahl

yes. We're the National Committee to Horsewhip Fascists.

The TERRIFYING NCHF !

598 Render  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 6:14:51pm

re: #555 kuchuklambat

Were I foolish enough to second-guess the plans and strategies of the likes of F.D. Roosevelt, W. Churchill, or H. Truman I would go with your second sentence...

"or perhaps allied but with eyes open, negotiating tighter deals and preparing better for the iron curtain to be drawn right after hitler's defeat?"

But I'm not. I'm attempting to illustrate a valuable historical lesson regarding the old Arab saying, "enemy of my enemy is a friend of mine."

Old sayings are not always true.

===

There is also a tactical issue that has yet to be mentioned at the blog war level.

There is no room within the BNP/VB/SD/ITS/WTFE, (whatthefuckever combination of letters they're using today), collective manifesto's for the individual enemy to surrender.

BNP and company will not accept a large number of apostate/heretical former Moslem's into their ranks.

Will they?

ANTHEM,
R

599 gman  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 6:15:20pm

re: #582 pet85022

I can see the point of not wanting these groups representing the anti-jihadists movement BUT I have seen virtually nothing from any other group. Exactly what do we do in 5 years when all the Scandinavian countries democratically vote to become moslem under sharia law because the moslems will be in the majority. THe EU has made it virtually impossible to demonstrate against the Islamization of western europe.
#106 derkrieger is right, all I see at LGF is people moaning and groaning about right wing Nazis BUT no one has put forth an alternative THAT WILL WORK. Words are find BUT words will not stop the islamization of europe and eventually the US.

The Neo- Nazi groups would like you to believe they are your only hope. Don't fall for it. Words and the ideas behind those words are more powerful than you think. I visit this blog to contribute what I know and to learn from others. I take what I learn from here and tell my friends and family. Knowledge empowers one to hopefully make better choices that lead to positive changes in the world. Don't lower your bar of values and expectations for these Nazi fools.

600 Syrah  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 6:19:48pm

re: #589 Poitiers-Lepanto

I expect the BNP and Vlaams Belaang alliance to be just as strong as was the alliance of "The Identity, Tradition, Sovereignty Group".

At some point, one side or another is going to engage in ethnic slurs against the other and the whole thing will collapse in on it self much as these kinds of abominations must.

They are all about contempt for the "other" and it makes for shaky alliances across ethnic bounds.

601 konservo  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 6:20:05pm

re: #594 haakondahl

re: #595 Spiny Norman

re: #597 Poitiers-Lepanto

Thanks guys, I didn't mean to presume to speak for everyone at LGF, but I had a feeling others felt the same way.

602 haakondahl  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 6:21:40pm

re: #601 konservo

re: #594 haakondahl

re: #595 Spiny Norman

re: #597 Poitiers-Lepanto

Thanks guys, I didn't mean to presume to speak for everyone at LGF, but I had a feeling others felt the same way.

When you know you're right, don't be shy. Good on ya.

603 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 6:22:02pm

re: #601 konservo

We will let it slide this time. ;)

604 Syrah  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 6:22:29pm

re: #596 Poitiers-Lepanto

And after months and months... they keep coming here and asking the same questions and getting the same answer...

Yep.

Why they want us to be their dictators and overlords is a mystery.

605 Quasars  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 6:39:05pm

re: #554 jeppo

Sometimes it takes so-called extremists like the VB and Wilders to take a controversial (and possibly life-threatening) anti-Islamist stand in order to get the more mainstream parties to even pay attention to the rapid Islamization of Europe.


100% correct, Jeppo. Currently the European mainstram parties are too busy donating $7billion to the PLO (LGF article elsewhere) to be paying attention to little things like the Islamification of Europe. Only these guys are doing it, plus Wilders whom I enthusiastically support. So it's up to these guys, can't be helped, no use crying about it.

606 Mich-again  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 6:39:33pm

re: #582 pet85022

all I see at LGF is people moaning and groaning about right wing Nazis BUT no one has put forth an alternative THAT WILL WORK.

Oh I don't know, maybe they could start by having a few more children. Europe is being overrun by the ethnic groups who are having the most kids. How hard is that to figure out?

And there won't be any legislation that can reverse that. Its like trying to save space for friends along the curb for the big parade. If your friends don't get there in time the space you saved for them will get encroached by the crowd. You need people to hold territory.

Traditional Europe has by and large left Religion behind and so many of her young people aren't all that interested in getting married and raising families. Thats why they are being overrun.

607 wong fei hung  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 6:41:15pm

This is why we like you, Charles. You stick to your guns. Well done.

608 konservo  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 6:54:15pm
re: #605 Quasars

So it's up to these guys, can't be helped, no use crying about it.

Yeah, it's best to just let the fascists take over... I see your point.

/moron

609 TalkinKamel  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 7:02:36pm

#606 Mich-again

Yes, they could---and should---start having more children. What's the good of saving Europe, if there are no Europeans left to save it for?

They could dismantle their overburdened welfare systems, kick the jihadis off the dole and, in general, divorce themselves from their dependence on socialism. (I think that would be a big help right there; stop keeping young Moslem males on the dole, so they can spend their days seething with resentment, and plotting jihad.)

They could stop importing guest workers, and start working more themselves, and actually induldging in capitalism!

They could strengthen their families, resdiscover their heritage, stop wallowing in guilt over colonialism. They could stop hating, and opposing, America and Israel, and blaming the Jews for all their problems.

610 TalkinKamel  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 7:04:18pm

#608 Konservo

Why, yes---things just worked out so swell last time when the facists took over Europe. . . heh, heh, heh. . .

/Nice point, Konservo!

611 konservo  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 7:18:19pm

re: #610 TalkinKamel

Thanks, it irks me to hear someone suggest that the best thing to do sit back and give unconditional support to anyone. Let alone proven fascists!

612 elrushbuni  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 7:18:36pm

I actually like the idea of no new mosques built - if you build them, they will come. And when they come, they populate to inordinate degrees. That could be dangerous in a nation with representation /elections.

613 Quasars  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 7:22:25pm

re: #606 Mich-again

Traditional Europe has by and large left Religion behind and so many of her young people aren't all that interested in getting married and raising families. Thats why they are being overrun.

I think the single greatest cause of the population decline is the "women's lib" movement. If women were in the home, they'd be having children. Mind you, it would all have been for the best, if only non-liberated societies were not waiting and eager to fill the vacuum.

It was pointed out, after the recent Gandhi assassination, that before you can have a functioning democracy, you must first kill all the Jihadis. Similarly, to have a women-liberated society, you first must remove the threat from the non-liberated societies. Else we go the way of all our decadent predecessors (remember Balthazar?)

614 konservo  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 7:41:08pm

re: #613 Quasars

I'll drink to that, brother! Our Western society can't give up control of our women, we could learn alot from these guys.

/this guy can't be serious!

615 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 7:47:10pm

re: #613 Quasars

I think the single greatest cause of the population decline is the "women's lib" movement. If women were in the home, they'd be having children.

Because a woman should be barefoot and pregnant, right?

Perhaps it's the socialist movement that is the problem- the tax code makes it so that one income earner cannot support a family- it takes two incomes. So regardless of women insisting they have a right to self-determination, they'd be forced into the workplace as it is just to support the government. Every child they give birth to costs money. Where are these families who need to breed more going to find the income to support these larger families? The welfare office supported by less tax payers because half of them are now staying at home breeding children they can't afford?

Real misogynistic of you to pin the issue on women. I blame men- men like Marx and Keynes.

616 Quasars  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 7:54:10pm

re: #614 konservo

re: #613 Quasars

I'll drink to that, brother! Our Western society can't give up control of our women, we could learn alot from these guys.

/this guy can't be serious!


As I was careful to point out, I support women's equal role in society, but it has unfortunately weakened us in the face of an implacable enemy (due to our reduced birthrate, plus that women tend to vote left-wing). The enemy must be defeated, else women's equality will become just a footnote in the history books.

617 konservo  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 7:57:09pm
re: #616 Quasars

As I was careful to point out, I support women's equal role in society,

Yeah, I noticed. You couldn't hide your excessively misogynistic views though.

618 haakondahl  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 7:58:55pm

re: #616 Quasars

re: #614 konservo


re: #613 Quasars

I'll drink to that, brother! Our Western society can't give up control of our women, we could learn alot from these guys.

/this guy can't be serious!


As I was careful to point out, I support women's equal role in society, but it has unfortunately weakened us in the face of an implacable enemy (due to our reduced birthrate, plus that women tend to vote left-wing). The enemy must be defeated, else women's equality will become just a footnote in the history books.

Hmmm... so we should also not have our women voting, in order to preserve their equality. Perhaps you have some suggestions for how to treat our blacks?

/I don't think you're evil, I just think you stepped in a little poo back there. You might want to wipe your shoe.

619 Charles  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 8:01:45pm

I've had enough of 'Quasars.' Buh-bye.

620 konservo  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 8:02:43pm

Cya, Q!

621 haakondahl  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 8:03:22pm

re: #619 Charles

I've had enough of 'Quasars.' Buh-bye.

/I guess he was evil after all.

622 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 8:03:37pm

re: #619 Charles

I've had enough of 'Quasars.' Buh-bye.

You rock.

623 Highrise  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 8:06:27pm

re: #77 Jonas Parker

As long as they just kill each other, who gives a rat's fanny?

Until one of them wins and turns on you and no crystal ball exists to say one won't win. If no one stands up Right Now to nip this in the bud and says enough of this to the nazi groups, the gun will turn on innocents if they win the battle as history has told us and as logic dictates by their thought process.

624 TalkinKamel  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 8:08:31pm

#611 Konservo

Thank you!

:>)

#615 Sharmuta

Yes, I think socialism is the problem.

625 Highrise  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 8:08:37pm

re: #616 Quasars

I support women's equal role in society, but it has unfortunately weakened us in the face of an implacable enemy


If by your post that is how you show your "support" for women with your pathetic generalizations, I'd hate to see how you really treat what you don't support.

Posting as a woman here, you can shove it buddy. And I'm being real kind here......

626 Highrise  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 8:09:29pm

re: #619 Charles

I've had enough of 'Quasars.' Buh-bye.

Charles,

Thank you.

627 konservo  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 8:11:43pm

re: #626 Highrise

Hello, Highrise!

628 Mich-again  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 8:28:45pm

re: #609 TalkinKamel

They could strengthen their families, resdiscover their heritage, stop wallowing in guilt over colonialism. They could stop hating, and opposing, America and Israel, and blaming the Jews for all their problems.

Thats what I'm talking about. Its not all that complicated. Aint nothing to it but to do it.

629 Amillennialist  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 8:33:12pm

re: #545 guftafs

... and I wasn't referring to your describing them as intelligent and well-intentioned as putting words in their mouth. It was your saying they should get together, straighten out the misunderstandings, etc. that is speaking for them.

If they are intelligent they don't need anyone telling them what to say or do?

Everyone makes mistakes. All of us can use encouragement from time to time, especially when we're wrong.

How is saying that they should reconcile putting words in their mouths? It's only my observation that they all have something valuable to offer in the War of Self-Defense Against Allah.

(Even if there were no jihad, because I respect all of them, I would find their discord saddening.)

Today's post brought to mind again this lamentable split and the fact that if we are going to have success against the global jihad (in all its forms), we need cooperation between us, not conflict.

In Paul Fregosi's Jihad in the West, the author notes that the early victories for Islam that led to the enslavement and death of numerous Christian peoples throughout Europe was due in part to the fact that Allah's monsters were able to exploit conflicts between the targets of their malice.

Tuesday, May 29, 1453 was the day Constantinople fell to Islam, and in the Hagia Sofia Catholic and Orthodox worshiped together for the last time in 1,000 years before Mohammed's monsters raped the city and its inhabitants. If the Church had been unified, and if unnecessary rivalries had not prevented East and West from cooperating in each other's defense, one of the great tragedies in the history of man (and all its spawn) might have been avoided.

Past is prologue, and in this case, also a portent.

630 J.S.  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 8:42:45pm

Well, I trust this is a dead thread and nobody will be reading this anyway...(ahem).. Let me preface this by saying, in general, I like Mark Steyn -- I like his writing, he's witty, to the point, and I agree with (with the bulk of) his assessments...particularly with respect to his assessments of radical Islam (and the problem of Western caving-in to Islamic demands -- the appeasements, the gradual adoption of Sharia law, etc.) However, there is one argument of Steyn's which bothers me... and that is his argument about "population." I believe his argument is predicated on a false premise. The false premise suggests that "If population X outnumbers population Y, then population X wins out." It's as if the only thing that matters is "the numbers." But look to history...is such a pleasant understanding of the world borne out? (pun intended). When the Mongols established their domain -- was it because they outnumbered their enemies? Even with Islam -- did Islam spread due to their overwhelming numbers? Eh, I think not. I don't think it's necessarily about "the numbers." Or the ready confidence (the glib optimism) of the thought -- "Well, if White Europeans just had more Children, then Bingo! Islamism will be defeated!" (hmmm..NorskTroll's Lebensborn?) Now, I can imagine the following scenario -- White Europeans decide to have more children -- and the "more children" become facts on the ground. unfortunately, however, the chillen look at their racist, atheistic parents and say, "Hey, no way -- I'm revertin'!" My point is that just because you get more offspring -- it's no guarantee that your "way of seein' the world" will be carried forward, to the next generation. So... something else is needed -- and maybe it's not about "bodies" -- it's about reinvigorating ideas -- the spirit of Western Civilization. All the noble, fabulous ideas of Western Civilization. Re-vitalize that -- that's the key!

631 konservo  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 8:57:38pm

re: #630 J.S.

Yup. It's a false premise, as evidenced by this. It has nothing to do with race.

632 average_guy  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 8:59:34pm

re: #115 Spenser (with an S)

Dobson endorsed Harriett Miers for SCOTUS. Also, check Focus On The Family's move reviews and you'll see many prime examples of the compromise position vis-a-vis biblical theology. If you check closely, you'll find Dobson is a wet noodle.

633 EE  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 9:03:22pm

The Eurofascists are mum about what they plan to do eventually.
It would be a mistake to give power to a group when you don't understand what they would do with that power.

But if you think about it, what the Eurofascists are interested in is a form of demagraphic cleansing that is targeted against non-whites and infidels. What they would do, if they gained power, would be the extermination or at least the expulsion of non-whites and infidels. Their heros, the Nazis, did not stop at expulsion, but went all the way to extermination -- the Nazi "final solution".

If they did not gain power, they would become a terrorist organization, engaged in "ethnic cleansing" against their prey -- non-whites and infidels.

We know who their prey is going to be: non-whites and infidels.
We should suspect that their modus operandi is most likely to follow that of their heros, the Nazis, and is most likely to be murder.

We have seen what this sort of ideology led to in the past, with the rule of their heros the Nazis. The result was a world war, in which tens of millions of people were killed. We don't need to try it again. Enough is enough!

The Eurofascists basically want to replace the war on terror, and the counter-jihad, with a war against melanin, the substance that gives a skin a darker color. That's racism, and there is no way to deny it.

I suggest to the Europeans that they are making a mistake by not taking the global jihad as seriously as it deserves, and they are making a mistake if they do not oppose the Eurofascist racists who would make a bloodbath in Europe. If they cannot think of doing anything sensible, I suggest that they might consider allying themselves more closely with the United States, and following the example of the US. They could do a lot worse.

634 abolitionist  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 9:11:44pm

re: #475 bulwrk

At the end of WWII many surrendering Nazi units thought it was a pointless waste of time to fight each other and that we should join forces to fight the real enemy the Russians.

we told them to get f**ked then to.

Au contrair. The Brits and the US hired many of the (ex?)Nazis as intelligence agents of one sort or another, in the months/years/decades after ww2, much as the Soviets did, according to several articles by John Loftus and Carl Savich. While many went to Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and various other islamic states, and the UK, and many came to the USofA. This is one of the very unfortunate aspects of the cold war. This may provide some deeper understanding of how our own intelligence agencies, state department and universities got so f***ed up, and why we're hell-bent on supporting the establishment of an islamic terrorist state in the heart of Europe and another next to Israel.

Muslim Brotherhood, Nazis and Al Qaeda - John Loftus

The Ratline: The US-Ustasha Connection - By Carl Savich

635 Highrise  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 9:24:01pm

re: #627 konservo

Hello there!

636 Highrise  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 9:30:39pm

re: #630 J.S.


My point is that just because you get more offspring -- it's no guarantee that your "way of seein' the world" will be carried forward, to the next generation

This is so very true. My brother is completely 180 from me and thinks the gov't and world owes him. My father who is a former Marine and my mother who is a former Nun are both fairly conservative but not far right. I picked up the ethic/morals of my parents, my brother did not. My half sister came from my father and his ex, neither one liberal and she is almost loony liberal but my mother is making headway as she likes my mom and her views on things.

637 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 9:32:46pm

re: #629 Amillennialist

In Paul Fregosi's Jihad in the West, the author notes that the early victories for Islam that led to the enslavement and death of numerous Christian peoples throughout Europe was due in part to the fact that Allah's monsters were able to exploit conflicts between the targets of their malice.

I recommend that book myself. But I think your analogy is flawed- in this sense: we are not talking about an inter-denomination dispute, we are talking about a fundamental ideological divide. Should the Orthodox and Catholic Churches have set aside their differences to stand against a common enemy? Absolutely! Because the gap was not so very wide- they were, after all, both Christian.

But that is not what's going on here today. Were not talking about different perspectives about the same religion. We are talking about the difference between fascism and Liberty. Some people want to make excuses for the fascists, but I'm not interested in normalizing a repugnant ideology- are you? It's not as if these bloggers don't know what they're doing or supporting. They embrace them, make excuses for them- intentionally. This is a fundamental difference- one that should not be set aside for the sake of a common enemy because in this case we're trading one evil in for another. I'll pass, thank you.

638 Maximu§  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 9:37:47pm

re: #483 Kenneth


Let's say we stay in the real world: the neo-nazis are a small & isolated bunch of freaks who like to march around in silly paramilitary uniforms.

In 1935, Im sure the same thing was said about the National Socialist German Workers’ Partywhen they marched and demonstrated in Berlin.

Maximu§
3/11 ACR

639 JungleJim  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 9:41:52pm

But all it says is

Parties from Britain (the British National Party), Denmark, Germany and Italy were also represented at the launch of the group which has a road-sign-style crossed-out mosque as its logo.

Do we know for sure that BNP is actually an accepted member of this group, or did one or more of their people merely show up at the event?

And if you are going to mention someone with ties to David Duke, you should also note that Duke is a pro-jihadist who has allied himself with the Islamic Republic of Iran.

In other words, what you are saying is that BNP is simultaneously allying itself with Vlaams Belang (pro-Israeli, anti-Islamofascist) and David Duke (anti-Israeli, pro-Islamofascist).

I am not buying into your arguments that Vlaams Belang is a fascist group. They do not hold up to close scrutiny.

640 Highrise  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 9:46:14pm

re: #134 Silhouette

Islamism is a threat against western civilization. Western civilization needs to win. But some can't separate race from culture, and think the only way to have western civilization is to have all white people. The cure is worse than the disease.

And to take that a smidge step further, islam is a cult that centers around the afterlife, not a peaceful religion as it calls for those who do not join in islam to be killed and lied to. Western People want to concentrate on the few who are Not jihadists and go by what they say but they are being fooled to believe what the koran truly teaches as well as being fooled to believe in the mantra that the politicians/media tout that the jihadists are a small percentage of islam.

We need to pound into these people that our constitution and rule of law is not a death sentence, we do not have to give in to a cult in any way shape or form that has death as the center of it's teachings in their instruction booklet, the koran.

641 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 9:46:53pm

re: #639 JungleJim

You need to do some reading, I think.

642 uptight  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 9:58:42pm

I wonder if they are being paid by Islamists to do this...you know...to make it look as though hatred & fear of Islamism is a kind of racism. I mean that's what Islamists would want us to believe.

643 konservo  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 10:03:04pm

re: #642 uptight

I don't know. I think they're just morons.

644 Syrah  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 10:09:18pm

re: #642 uptight

Never underestimate the sheer mind numbing power of stupidity.

645 Albertanator  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 10:09:43pm

Well I know this is a controversial issue but Winston Churchill himself said he would make an alliance with the Devil against Hitler...

I think in these times, Islam is the greatest danger on earth and only liberalism in all its form's rival's islam ........in that spirit, we ARE going to have to realize that this is not going to be a perfect war where are side is going to have to behave like angels....

I will take facists bastards against Islamic bastards.......and I can certainly understand why some far right Europeans feel the same way...

You have to be pragmatic and take the lessor of the 2 evils....in this case, Islam is the far greater evil along with its ally liberalism and the hard left....

I do not think we can appreciate being a European in North America....living in small countries and having their mainstream politicians sell them out and letting in millions of muslims...

It is only natural that people will react with extreme measures...

I hope no one on this board does not realize that Islam is a completely evil force that means harm for all of us....and if we HAVE to fight in a dirty manner, so be it....The left since man first walked this earth, in all of its form, has cheated, lied, stole and done anything to subvert decent society....and Islam is the same type of force...

Desperate times call for desperate measures!

646 Syrah  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 10:37:50pm

re: #645 Albertanator

Somehow I doubt that Churchill would have really signed off on a deal with Old Scratch.

Hyperbole is not to be taken that seriously.

647 Albertanator  Thu, Jan 17, 2008 11:06:06pm

Yes Syrah but I hope you get the point....Churchill rightly despised Stalin and Communism but viewed it as the lessor of 2 evils and aligned himself with Uncle Joe against Adolf...

We too are going to have to align with some less then perfect groups and organizations in these dangerous times......

Again...I will take a Franco or a Pinochet a million times over any Islamic overlord! Hitler....well obviously that is going to far.......

In a perfect world, we would have Islam, nazism, liberalism and marxism all fight it out and destroy one another leaving the rest of the sane world of Adults remaining to run the world.......I doubt that is going to happen but it is a nice dream.....

648 Amillennialist  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 12:01:47am

re: #637 Sharmuta

re: #629 Amillennialist

. . . I think your analogy is flawed- in this sense: we are not talking about an inter-denomination dispute, we are talking about a fundamental ideological divide . . . .

. . . It's not as if these bloggers don't know what they're doing or supporting. They embrace them, make excuses for them- intentionally . . . .

Both examples are valid because in both cases, Islam defeated an enemy weakened (or outright betrayed) by internal divisions.

I've not read much of Gates of Vienna recently, but I have been spending quite a bit of time at Atlas Shrugs. I've seen nothing at either site that looks like tolerance for Nazis.

Can you provide a link to something either GoV or AS has written that demonstrates they "know what they're doing" or that they're "embracing intentionally" Nazis?

And just to be clear (again), I am not advocating compromise with any sort of fascism or racism, and I do not defend even an accidental apology for either.

649 Amillennialist  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 12:22:02am

I just had a chance to look at one of the earliest posts here on VB from the search linked above by Sharmuta.

Atlas did make a logical error and confuse Charles's observation that, "not all the people who are hitching a ride on the anti-Islamization movement are doing it for honorable reasons," for a condemnation of all those who attended.

Neither is raising such concerns "political correctness run amok" or aid to the enemy.

I do remember Robert Spencer's post lamenting that those he respects were in such heated disagreement.

I share that sentiment.

650 konservo  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 12:29:41am

re: #649 Amillennialist

Atlas said more in the comment section of one of those old threads, she was a staunch defender of groups who have been shown to have racist and or fascist leadership. If she hasn't said much about these groups lately, it's probably because she's embarrassed.

However, the Gates of Vienna, The Brussels Journal, and Fjordman have all said much in defense of the European parties in question, despite the overwhelming evidence.

Oh, and the Center of Vigilant Freedom too.

651 Render  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 12:57:45am

re: #648 Amillennialist

As early as September of '07, Atlas was cross-posting and linking directly to BNP propaganda articles and Gate of Vienna was acting as a virtual megaphone for VB mouthpiece Paul Beliens.

They knew then and they know now who and what they were getting involved with.

We're not interested in joining them. Ever.

TAKE
A
HINT,
R

652 Amillennialist  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 1:16:11am

re: #651 Render

re: #648 Amillennialist

TAKE
A
HINT,
R

Put down that gun, just in case your aim is any better than your judgment.

653 konservo  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 1:27:05am

re: #652 Amillennialist

Everything Render said in that post is true. You took the time to read a few links in Sharmuta's post above, I'm surprised you wouldn't do the same and verify Render's claims as well.

Render is one of the most informed Lizards when it comes to this topic, I suggest you do more research before you question his judgment.

654 Render  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 2:52:12am
655 guftafs  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 6:25:55am

re: #630 J.S.

I don't have exact figures but someone in another thread even pointed out that Steyn did not tell the whole picture, that Iran for instance has a low if not negative nativity, which means that high nativity is not a cultural trait of Islamic countries.

Don't know what exactly Steyn wants to get across with this point, but it makes me wary. He's one of the funniest columnists I've ever read, but humour shouldn't be confused with being right.

656 Poitiers-Lepanto  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 7:05:19am

It's so funny: every time that Charles posts a thread about the neofascists... THERE ! they magically appear ! ...the guys with 2 or three or 20 posts on LGF who wait for the thread to be coldish and THEN they post super-superciliously, judging about MONTHS of debate with a few, and badly conceived, sentences.

It's too funny ! It happens EVERY time !

It's a lost battle, little sweeties, just go away.

657 TalkinKamel  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 8:04:05am

#656 Poitiers-Lepanto-Mt. Gisors

Oh, but you just don't understand! The facists are the only ones who can save Europe at this point! There's nobody else who can do it! All is lost, unless we stop being so squeamish, and join their side immediately!

Otherwise, Islam will win, and, of course, we all know the facists will be sooooo much better than the Islamists, right? I mean, look at how well they ran Europe in the 30's and 40's. And, of course, even though they wound up allied with Islam, and with the Communists, whom they supposedly despised, as well, we know they would never pull such a turnabout again! Why, they love Jews now, and Americans too! Right? Of course right! Now just fall into line, and stop asking all those questions. . .

/Okay, sarc. mode off.

Facists, neo or otherwise, are only preferable to those whose white/European/Aryan credentials are impeccable, and who stand a good chance of gaining power should facism take control.

If you're a Jew, or follow any religion other than Nordic paganism; if you're a female who doesn't want to stay at home all the time, if you have any sort of "mixed ancestory", you're screwed.

Why should Non-Aryans, non-white Europeans, non-pagan Odinists support those who despise them as "untermenschen", and, given half the chance, would relegate them to subhuman status? (Unless said "untermencshen" are: 1. Suicidal, 2. Self-hating, or. . . 3. Just plain dumb. When facists ask us for their support, they're really asking us to be one of the above, or none of the above.)

I'm not even going to go into Facism's history of genocide and war, or it's habit of allying itself with the very enemies it claims to despise---that's all been covered here before, to the point of utter tedium, and the little sweeties still refuse to get it. Or they get it, but they don't want it. Or they're hoping we'll be #1., #2. or #3. mentioned above, or all of the above.

658 Yank in the EU  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 9:02:07am

Sharmuta and all concerned about the Pro-NSW.

On the German party that took part in this anti-Islam movement, Der Spiegel article does a decent job of summarizing the issues without exaggerating and noting that, of course, a key problem is the involvement of neo-Nazis, who have traditionally supported radical Islam's antisemitism. However, the Spiegel piece did not mention specific facts in regard to the Pro-NRW relations to the NPD (neo-Nazi). As we have said repeatedly, it is the involvement of neo-Nazis and racial nationalists in the anti-jihad cause that is absolutely problematic in a number of important ways, not necessarily the idea of free citizens in Europe supporting their cultures, criticizing Islam or calling to stop building mosques and madrassas.

The Pro North-Rhine Westphalia group is an off-shoot of a movement called "Pro-Koeln," which was formed ad-hoc to protest the building of a gigantic mosque in Cologne. It was mentioned in the news that it would rival in size and grandeur the famous cathedral in Cologne: Hohe Domkirche St. Peter und Maria, which miraculously survived direct hits by Allied bombs in WWII while every other build around it was burned to the ground. The leadership of the Pro-NRW would seek to expand this cause and agenda of basically protesting against specific mosques throughout Germany. The two key leaders of the Pro-NRW are Markus Beisicht and Manfred Rouhs.

The source of the following claims is the MSM German paper Die Welt, which is known to be pro-US and conservative.

"Manfred Rouhs was in the past an open a member of the extremist NPD."

In fact, he ran for parliament in their party - NDP.

"Zu den prominenten Mitgliedern zählt ferner der 90-jährige Bauunternehmer Günther Kissel aus Solingen, der schon den Holocaust-Leugner David Irving einlud, auf seinem Grundstück Geschichtslegenden vorzutragen. In Schriften und Reden rieb Kissel sich immer wieder an der Zahl von sechs Millionen von den Nazis ermordeter Juden. Der Parteivorsitzende Beisicht bejubelte den Eintritt des %u201Eguten Patrioten“ Kissel trotzdem überschwänglich. "


Translation: "Among the prominent members also include 90 year old building contractor Guenther Kissel from Solingen, who had been invited by Holocaust denier David Irving to promote the Holocaust as a myth. In writings and speeches Kissel often frays (or dissembles or doubts) the number of six million Jews murdered by the Nazis. The party chairman Beisicht neverthless gushingly cheered the entrance of Kissel (to the party) as a "good patriot".

659 Yank in the EU  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 9:03:04am

pimf: Der Spiegel's

660 Yank in the EU  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 9:09:58am

Correction: "Pro-NSW" should be "Pro-NRW"

661 Poitiers-Lepanto  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 9:17:33am

re: #657 TalkinKamel

There is another reason for the sweeties coming back here to spread their propaganda: NOBODY talks with them in Europe, they are absolutely the pariah of politics and of society...the fact that some American bloggers have opened a window of dialogue with them is something absolutely unheard of and a true LOTTERY for them.

And in these few months everybody here has been able to see by himself why these guys are considered pariahs...it's not only because of the horrors of the past and of the terrifying ambiguities of the present...it is because of their amazing DUMBNESS too. Which is typical of all humans who have sold their reason to an ideology (the KOmmieS KIDS come to mind...).

662 TalkinKamel  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 9:25:44am

#661 Poitiers-Lepanto-Mt. Gisors

Exactly.

:>)

663 noman  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 9:28:25am

Hope I'm not stepping on a landmine here but some of Quasars' comments before getting banned got me thinking about a possible solution.

Neal Boortz has commented on the tendency of many younger women to vote for the Democrats who are even more the party of the Nanny state "it's for children" socialists than the George Bush "Compassionate" so called conservative Republicans are. Boortz attributes this to the desire for security and says that once the ladies get security by getting married , this tendency abates.

Ann Coulter may have been HALF-right when she said that "I think [women] should be armed but should not vote". She is right about "armed" but wrong about the "vote" part

Possible solution: Strongly encouraging girls and women to have arms and learn to use them hoping this will develop a sense of confidence and greater security which MAY lead to a more individualistic political view. This needs to be done on an individual level in addition to what the NRA does already.

Guns are extremely important per "All men and women are equal, St. Sam Colt of the Revolver made them that way." but self defense in general should be encouraged rather than the ridiculous don't fight back mentality encouraged in public schools which trains you to be dependent on the Nanny State authorities: teachers, vice-principals and finally the police (call for a pizza, call for an ambulance, call for the police and see who gets there first). You have to protect you. The police MAY catch your murderer but you're still dead and there is a very good chance he or she may get away. Better to be fight back and per Ice Cube:"Be judged by 12 instead of carried by 6".

Get your wives, sisters, daughters and nieces involved in martial arts.

664 Amillennialist  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 10:35:01am

re: #653 konservo

re: #652 Amillennialist

Everything Render said in that post is true. You took the time to read a few links in Sharmuta's post above, I'm surprised you wouldn't do the same and verify Render's claims as well.

Render is one of the most informed Lizards when it comes to this topic, I suggest you do more research before you question his judgment.

I assumed that from what I quoted of Render's post, the meaning of my statement would be clear.

I was not questioning his judgment on whether or not we should ally with Nazis. I was questioning his judgment in suggesting I need to "take a hint."

Because I want Charles, Pamela, Baron, etc., to resolve the disagreements between them (perhaps it is too late now) does not make me an advocate of nor indifferent to the evil of racist or fascist ideologies.

A few posts here have leapt to that conclusion without any justification.

665 BabbaZee  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 10:51:25am
666 wanumba  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 11:21:06am

re: #645 Albertanator

Well I know this is a controversial issue but Winston Churchill himself said he would make an alliance with the Devil against Hitler...

I think in these times, Islam is the greatest danger on earth and only liberalism in all its form's rival's islam ........in that spirit, we ARE going to have to realize that this is not going to be a perfect war where are side is going to have to behave like angels....

I will take facists bastards against Islamic bastards.......and I can certainly understand why some far right Europeans feel the same way...

You have to be pragmatic and take the lessor of the 2 evils....in this case, Islam is the far greater evil along with its ally liberalism and the hard left....

I do not think we can appreciate being a European in North America....living in small countries and having their mainstream politicians sell them out and letting in millions of muslims...

It is only natural that people will react with extreme measures...

I hope no one on this board does not realize that Islam is a completely evil force that means harm for all of us....and if we HAVE to fight in a dirty manner, so be it....The left since man first walked this earth, in all of its form, has cheated, lied, stole and done anything to subvert decent society....and Islam is the same type of force...

Desperate times call for desperate measures!

Churchill had bombs raining down on him, and our "allies" of convenience grabbed half of Europe the second the Germans let their defenses down. They would have grabbed MORE, had the US of A not stopped them, but millions upon millions of people were condemned to lives of despair and crushing oppression. They would have grabbed LESS had Patton been allowed to drive through Berlin enroute to Moscow, but that's a lament for another day.
No one is at that stage at this point, ie. open conflict, so it would be well worthwhile to NOT get that far and work hard to ELECT pragmatic leadership WITH MORALS, not fascists of ANY stripe.

Your chatty little arguments point to ONE solution: fascists.
Sorry, there are other FAR BETTER options than that. It should be considered an emergency measure of LAST RESORT, not No. 1 on the list. If you put it there, top of your choices, then you value the fascist message more than real freedom and justice and universal human dignity.

667 Render  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 11:41:53am

re: #664 Amillennialist

The hint...

There is nothing to resolve.

There is no disagreement.

Atlas and GoV have chosen to join, (yes, they have), with the likes of BNP, VB, and Stormfront.

Charles has chosen to not join with those neo-nazi assholes, (yes, they are).

Perhaps you're barking up the wrong tree.

LITERALLY,
R

668 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 1:58:26pm

re: #658 Yank in the EU

Thank you- that was very helpful.

More on Manfred Rouhs:

In Cologne we will do the first steps, in order to stop the fall of Germany. And then we tear the rudder around! If then all Germans live in the future - hopefully - in liberty and security, the Cologners will be able to say fully proudly of itself: "with us it has begun..."

669 Yank in the EU  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 2:14:15pm

re: #668 Sharmuta

Cool. I was in hurry and missed up the post, making also a minor but elementary mistake in my German. Kissel, NRW's major benefactor, invited Irving to deny the Holocaust on his property in Germany, not vice versa (the verb comes at the end of the sentence in clauses).

But yes: the facts we have noted connecting the NRW to neo-Nazis and Holocaust deniers from both Der Spiegel and Die Welt are pretty much all we need to know.

670 Amillennialist  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 2:56:15pm

re: #667 Render

re: #664 Amillennialist

Atlas and GoV have chosen to join, (yes, they have), with the likes of BNP, VB, and Stormfront.

Charles has chosen to not join with those neo-nazi assholes, (yes, they are).

Perhaps you're barking up the wrong tree.

LITERALLY,
R

Pamela wrote today at Atlas Shrugs, "I have not and never had supported or backed the BNP."

It is truthful to state that her first reaction to Charles's initial post on VB was in error.

Perhaps Charles, Pamela, et al, do not want to reconcile. Perhaps Charles has chosen you to be his personal spokesman on this topic.

Your antagonism aside, it is still an objective truth that these individuals are important voices in the struggle against jihad and that internal strife weakens our defense against it.

Literally.

671 Amillennialist  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 3:15:27pm

re: #655 guftafs

re: #630 J.S.

I don't have exact figures but someone in another thread even pointed out that Steyn did not tell the whole picture, that Iran for instance has a low if not negative nativity, which means that high nativity is not a cultural trait of Islamic countries.

Don't know what exactly Steyn wants to get across with this point, but it makes me wary. He's one of the funniest columnists I've ever read, but humour shouldn't be confused with being right.

The ultimate goal of jihad -- the establishment of the tyranny of Allah over all mankind -- does not proceed only with violence. Just as Mohammed himself did, when Islam is weak against a particular foe (non-Muslim society), it will do whatever it has to -- and use whatever means available -- to work toward its ends until it is strong enough to fight openly.

In every nation in which the numbers of Muslims have reached a critical mass, violence, threats of violence, and the usurpation of native non-Muslim institutions takes place until a piece of what was Dar al-Harb has become Dar al-Islam.

Birthrate matters in a multiculturalist, democratic society not only because of the political power that comes with it (look at what liberals will do to buy votes from tiny but vocal minorities in the U.S.), but also because of the numerical/martial advantage in actually taking land from the Infidels. The numerous No-Go Zones throughout Europe (and other lands where Muslims have become too numerous to remain quiescent) are evidence of this.

672 TalkinKamel  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 3:34:05pm

#670 Amillenialist

Expanding a bit on Wanumba's Post #666 (whoo-hooo, Wanumba! What a number!) has it ever occurred to you that one of the reasons we might not be that eager to make a deal with the devil is that we remember, all too well, what happened the last time we dealt with a devil?

Deals with the devil tend to work out very well for----the devil. Everybody else gets screwed.

I swear, I think you guys who come here pushing Vlaams Belang/BNP facism don't even bother to read our arguments. You certainly never seem to address them. It always boils down to, "They're Europe's only hope, and it's necessary to support them, so just fall into line and stop asking all these questions, 'cuz they're Europe's only hope, there's nobody else, they're an important voice against Islamofacism, etc., etc., etc."

(I do have to ask---what is so important about these guys? Why are they so vital to the cause of anti-jihadism? Why does GoV go all ga-ga over them, and, not, say, over Hirsi Ali, or the Hindus of India, or the the Mo-cartoonists? Aren't the Israelis important too, in the fight against jihad? Or Mark Steyn? In fact, haven't they actually been more useful, on the whole? It sounds to me like a lot of these groups, such as Vlaams Belang, etc., spend most of their time quarreling with each other, trying to put wreaths on Nazi graves, putting out repulsive magazines and other, similarly repellant and/or useless activities.)

As Wanumba said, there are, there really are, much better solutions than facism.

673 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 4:52:44pm

More searching on Manfred Rouhs came up with this piece from the nyt:

On June 16, Pro Cologne mobilized 200 people at a rally to protest the mosque. Among those on hand were the leaders of Austria’s Freedom Party, which was founded by Jorg Haider, and the extremist party Vlaams Belang, or Flemish Interest, from Antwerp. Both advocate the deportation of immigrants.

Manfred Rouhs, a leader of Pro Cologne, said the mosque would reinforce the development of a parallel Muslim society, and encourage the subjugation of women, which he said was embedded in Islam. “This is not a social model that has any place in the middle of Europe,” he said.

In this, he has found common ground with Mr. Giordano, an 84-year-old Jew who eluded the Nazis in World War II by hiding in a cellar. Mr. Giordano, who dismisses Pro Cologne as a “local chapter of contemporary National Socialists,” nonetheless agrees that the mosque is a threat.

It seems fairly clear to me that the German party involved is indeed "pro-cologne".

674 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 5:12:47pm

And Manfred has his own web site.

/Seems a little hung up on the "immigrants"......

675 Render  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 5:32:24pm

re: #670 Amillennialist

[Link: atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com...]

"News article filed by BNP news team"

"The move reinforces the decision by the BNP to have its websites hosted out with the UK. If our site was to be hosted in this country one could guarantee that the New Labour regime, which places far more importance on keeping the Muslim vote than allowing British citizens the ability to exercise free speech, would have pulled the plug not long after we published the controversial cartoons last weekend."

"To date the BNP website is the only British publication which carries the cartoons."

Posted by Pamela Geller on Friday, February 10, 2006 at 08:00 PM

===

Amill- "Pamela wrote today at Atlas Shrugs, "I have not and never had supported or backed the BNP."

R - Then Pamela has some explaining to do with regards the above cut-n-paste from her own post on her own blog. A post which is still there, on Pamela's blog, to this day.

Amil - "It is truthful to state that her first reaction to Charles's initial post on VB was in error."

R - Granted. But it leaves open the many questions about the moderated comments on Pamela's blog. While raising the question of; Why are you here asking Charles, or the rest of us to reconcile with Pamela? We're not the ones with the friendly links to BNP/VB. We're not the ones with the neo-nazi problem.

Amil - "Perhaps Charles, Pamela, et al, do not want to reconcile. Perhaps Charles has chosen you to be his personal spokesman on this topic."

R - Perhaps reconciliation is impossible as long as one side insists on including the neo-nazi parties in the their version of the Counter-Jihad. And I'm quite certain that Charles would have let me know if he had chosen me for such a lofty job position. If nothing else I'm sure it would have been reflected in my Zionist Conspiracy paychecks.

Amil - "Your antagonism aside, it is still an objective truth that these individuals are important voices in the struggle against jihad and that internal strife weakens our defense against it."

R - Jews who are not antagonistic towards Holocaust denying neo-nazi's have a title. If by individuals you mean people like Charles Johnson and Robert Spencer, then yes, they are very important to the Counter-Jihad. If you meant people like Atlas or GoV, who insist on including the likes of VB/BNP in the Counter-Jihad, then no. If both of those blogs closed up shop today, they would hardly be missed.

You seem to be missing a point here. We, (LGF), will not be allied with the likes of BNP, VB, SD, Stormfront, VNN, or any of the other thousand or so neo-nazi groups currently in existence. EVER.

If others, who consider themselves to be "Counter-Jihadist" insist upon joining with those neo-nazi groups, it is NOT OUR PROBLEM. Our refusal to do so should not even be an issue.

POINT
OF
CONTENTION,
R

676 Amillennialist  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 6:40:26pm

re: #672 TalkinKamel

#670 Amillenialist

Expanding a bit on Wanumba's Post #666 (whoo-hooo, Wanumba! What a number!) has it ever occurred to you that one of the reasons we might not be that eager to make a deal with the devil is that we remember, all too well, what happened the last time we dealt with a devil?

Deals with the devil tend to work out very well for----the devil. Everybody else gets screwed.

I swear, I think you guys who come here pushing Vlaams Belang/BNP facism don't even bother to read our arguments. You certainly never seem to address them. It always boils down to, "They're Europe's only hope, and it's necessary to support them, so just fall into line and stop asking all these questions, 'cuz they're Europe's only hope, there's nobody else, they're an important voice against Islamofacism, etc., etc., etc."

(I do have to ask---what is so important about these guys? Why are they so vital to the cause of anti-jihadism? Why does GoV go all ga-ga over them, and, not, say, over Hirsi Ali, or the Hindus of India, or the the Mo-cartoonists? Aren't the Israelis important too, in the fight against jihad? Or Mark Steyn? In fact, haven't they actually been more useful, on the whole? It sounds to me like a lot of these groups, such as Vlaams Belang, etc., spend most of their time quarreling with each other, trying to put wreaths on Nazi graves, putting out repulsive magazines and other, similarly repellant and/or useless activities.)

As Wanumba said, there are, there really are, much better solutions than facism.

TalkinKamel,

Considering the fact that you believe that I am "pushing Vlaams Belang/BNP facism," your reply is extraordinarily civil and level-headed. Thank you.

I would like to point out an important error in your comments, though. I am not pushing VB, BNP, nor any other kind of fascism.

Wishing to see Charles, Pamela, and GoV reconciled does not equal Nazism.

Your post is one of several here that makes the same kind of logical error that began the discord between Charles and Pamela on October 22, 2007.

Before drawing any false conclusions about my beliefs or motives, please read what I've actually written.

677 wanumba  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 7:19:29pm

re: #676 Amillennialist
"I would like to point out an important error in your comments, though. I am not pushing VB, BNP, nor any other kind of fascism...
Your post is one of several here that makes the same kind of logical error that began the discord between Charles and Pamela on October 22, 2007.

Before drawing any false conclusions about my beliefs or motives, please read what I've actually written."

Great idea: Let's review what you've actually written:

"You have to be pragmatic and take the lessor of the 2 evils....in this case, Islam is the far greater evil along with its ally liberalism and the hard left....

I do not think we can appreciate being a European in North America....living in small countries and having their mainstream politicians sell them out and letting in millions of muslims...

It is only natural that people will react with extreme measures..."

You are advocating a fascist response to the issues. In your own words.

678 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 7:46:54pm

re: #676 Amillennialist

Wishing to see Charles, Pamela, and GoV reconciled does not equal Nazism.

No- it doesn't, but it may equal apologia.

For starters- you're not the first to come here to LGF calling for reconciliation. From the viewpoint of many here- we have nothing to reconcile- we're not making nice with the fascists. So Render has it right- you're barking up the wrong tree.

Second- to reconcile without clearing up the matter of the fascists is to open LGF up to the same slippery slope we're condemning. You're talking about reconciling with apologists! What would that make us? Enablers for fascist apologists? I don't want to enable them- I don't think any of us do (well- except jeppo). If LGF wanted to enable fascist apologists- none of this would have happened in the first place.

Third- personally, I would not push anyone to reconcile with people who have treated someone the way Charles has been treated by these people. He's been attacked again and again, with nasty comments rampant on these blogs. Charles, on the other hand, has carried himself with much class and dignity, imo. The choice is his whether he reconciles with these folks or not, but I personally wouldn't advocate it. When a friend treats you like sh*t you've either deserved it or you have sh*tty friends. In this case- I don't think it was deserved.

679 Amillennialist  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 8:24:19pm

re: #675 Render

"To date the BNP website is the only British publication which carries the cartoons."

Posted by Pamela Geller on Friday, February 10, 2006 at 08:00 PM

===

Amill- "Pamela wrote today at Atlas Shrugs, "I have not and never had supported or backed the BNP."

R - Then Pamela has some explaining to do with regards the above cut-n-paste from her own post on her own blog. A post which is still there, on Pamela's blog, to this day.

Is it possible that at that time (more than a year-and-a-half before Charles raised an appropriate concern about VB according to your citation), Pamela did not realize what BNP was?

That she rejects explicitly BNP is good and proper and what you wanted, is it not?

While raising the question of; Why are you here asking Charles, or the rest of us to reconcile with Pamela? We're not the ones with the friendly links to BNP/VB. We're not the ones with the neo-nazi problem.

Where did I mention Render? Do consider yourself synonymous with or inextricably linked to Charles?

I am expressing a wish for reconciliation, spurred by Charles's comment regarding Pamela and GoV above. I have asked for nothing here except for those trigger-happy few to refrain from shooting at me for what they think they've read rather than what I've actually written.

As for my motivation, I've respected Charles, Atlas Shrugs, and Gates of Vienna for quite a while. More importantly, we need everyone of good will working together to defeat jihad.

R - Perhaps reconciliation is impossible as long as one side insists on including the neo-nazi parties in the their version of the Counter-Jihad. And I'm quite certain that Charles would have let me know if he had chosen me for such a lofty job position. If nothing else I'm sure it would have been reflected in my Zionist Conspiracy paychecks.

Your "Zionist Conspiracy" reference sounds oddly anti-Semitic, though I suppose it's only your misdirected sarcasm again.

Admission of errors and grace in reception of those admissions would go a long way toward reconciliation.

Since you admit Charles has not appointed you to that position, perhaps you should refrain from acting as though he has.

R - Jews who are not antagonistic towards Holocaust denying neo-nazi's have a title.

Spurious, especially in light of today's statement that Pamela rejects BNP, in her words the "British Nazi Party."

You seem to be missing a point here. We, (LGF), will not be allied with the likes of BNP, VB, SD, Stormfront, VNN, or any of the other thousand or so neo-nazi groups currently in existence. EVER.

Speaking of "missing a point," I cannot tell whether you are unable or unwilling to read what I've written and respond to that only.

I have not suggested alliance with neo-Nazis. You're making things up.

If others, who consider themselves to be "Counter-Jihadist" insist upon joining with those neo-nazi groups, it is NOT OUR PROBLEM. Our refusal to do so should not even be an issue.

Nowhere have I made Charles's, Render's, nor anyone at Little Green Footballs' refusal to join with Nazis "an issue."

That is absurd.

Render, you've wasted a good deal of your time and mine arguing with words I've not written.

Will you re-read what I've written and admit that you've falsely (and ungraciously) attributed to me positions I do not hold?

Will you do that which Pamela has not yet done?

680 Amillennialist  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 8:26:11pm

re: #677 wanumba

re: #676 Amillennialist
"I would like to point out an important error in your comments, though. I am not pushing VB, BNP, nor any other kind of fascism...
Your post is one of several here that makes the same kind of logical error that began the discord between Charles and Pamela on October 22, 2007.

Before drawing any false conclusions about my beliefs or motives, please read what I've actually written."

Great idea: Let's review what you've actually written:

"You have to be pragmatic and take the lessor of the 2 evils....in this case, Islam is the far greater evil along with its ally liberalism and the hard left....

I do not think we can appreciate being a European in North America....living in small countries and having their mainstream politicians sell them out and letting in millions of muslims...

It is only natural that people will react with extreme measures..."

You are advocating a fascist response to the issues. In your own words.

wanumba, that's a powerful demonstration of my point.

None of those words are mine. Please check again.

681 Syrah  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 8:39:10pm

re: #647 Albertanator

Amillennialist, you would have us put a stumbling block before those who most need to hear us.

Defeating Islam will require that we in the Anti-Jihadist movement be able to persuade those people who should be opposed to FGM, who should be opposed to the degradation of woman to the status of chattel, who should be opposed to theocratic dictatorships, who should be opposed to caste prejudice based on a person's religion, to join us in opposing Islam since the islamist aim to and would impose all of that on all of us.

Bringing in Racialist and Ethnic Nationalist into the Anti-Jihadist movement will only guarantee that the Anti-Jihadist movement will fail.

It will fail because the Center Left and the Center Right of all nations will be so repulsed by the Ethnic Nationalist and Racialist in our midst that they would come to hate the Anti-Jihadist movement as just another manifestation of Racialism and Ethnic Nationalism.

The only thing that the Racialist and the Ethnic Nationalist can bring to us in the Anti-Jihadist movement is divisiveness and defeat.

682 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 8:39:34pm
we need everyone of good will working together to defeat jihad.

Well, Amillennialist- I guess that's what it comes down to. Is it your opinion that people who make excuses for fascist are of "good will"?

683 Syrah  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 8:40:32pm

re: #681 Syrah

My apologies to Amillennialist, I meant that for Albertanator.

684 Amillennialist  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 8:48:57pm

re: #678 Sharmuta

No- it doesn't, but it may equal apologia.

Not in my case. I do not defend tyranny.

For starters- you're not the first to come here to LGF calling for reconciliation. From the viewpoint of many here- we have nothing to reconcile- we're not making nice with the fascists. So Render has it right- you're barking up the wrong tree.

What others have written has nothing to do with what I've expressed (a desire for reconciliation), which as you concede above, is not equivalent with Nazism. It's only . . . a desire for reconciliation.

(By the way, I was writing of Charles, et al, not their readers.)

Second- to reconcile without clearing up the matter of the fascists is to open LGF up to the same slippery slope we're condemning. You're talking about reconciling with apologists! What would that make us? Enablers for fascist apologists? I don't want to enable them- I don't think any of us do (well- except jeppo). If LGF wanted to enable fascist apologists- none of this would have happened in the first place.

Nor would I want that. You'll notice that I've mentioned more than once "truth," "admissions of error," "not compromising principle," and that Pamela erred in her reaction to Charles's original question regarding VB.

. . . Charles, on the other hand, has carried himself with much class and dignity, imo. The choice is his whether he reconciles with these folks or not, but I personally wouldn't advocate it. When a friend treats you like sh*t you've either deserved it or you have sh*tty friends. In this case- I don't think it was deserved.

I have not read all the posts at LGF, AS, and GoV on the subject, but as I've noted several times above, Pamela's initial attack against Charles was unjustified. His was a fair question and did not deserve such a response.

Your opinion on the possibility of their reconciling is reasonable.

685 Amillennialist  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 8:53:40pm

re: #681 Syrah

re: #647 Albertanator

Amillennialist, you would have us put a stumbling block before those who most need to hear us.

. . .

Bringing in Racialist and Ethnic Nationalist into the Anti-Jihadist movement will only guarantee that the Anti-Jihadist movement will fail.

Wow! Another one!

Okay, let me try this again. I have not now nor ever advocated allying with racists, fascists, Nazis, nor any other totalitarian -isms or -ists for any purpose.

You are replying to what others have written.

If you have the opportunity, please re-read and address my comments.

686 EE  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 8:54:05pm

The history of the Eurofascists has been to spark a world war in which tens of milliions of people were killed.

They have some chance of coming into power, and they would create a bloodbath (this time against non-whites and infidels), if they follow the example of the Final Solution of their heros the Nazis.

The Eurofascists need an enemy in order to come into power, one that they can bash, and obtain popularity that way. In Hitler's time, they made the Jews their enemy. They also came to power by opposing the Communists. The modern Eurofascist's enemies are the non-whites and the infidels.

Europeans don't like the growth of the Muslim population. Why don't they have more children, to bring their birth rate at least up to the level of their death rate? The non-Muslim Europeans are dying out, and will eventually become extinct if they continue to refuse to have children at the replacement rate. Apart from the Muslim population's growth, Europe is headed toward becoming a dead continent as far as the non-Muslims are concerned. Why don't they address that problem? The Eurofascists are seeking to bathe Europe in the blood of non-whites and infidels, in order to carry out a demographic cleansing. It won't stop the death of the non-Muslim European population.

Since the European non-Muslims are dying out, they cannot inherit Europe. They are headed toward becoming a non-entity. An empty continent would be ripe for conquest by people outside it anyhow, so even if the Eurofascists carry out an expulsion or an extermination of non-whites and infidels, sooner or later Europe would be conquered by outsiders. That's what happens to an empty continent. After the passage of sufficient time, sooner or later Europe would be dead. They are doing this to themselves.

687 Amillennialist  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 8:55:10pm

re: #683 Syrah

re: #681 Syrah

My apologies to Amillennialist, I meant that for Albertanator.

No harm done! :)

688 Syrah  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 9:10:08pm

re: #686 EE

The Demographic problem in Europe is not so much about how many children Europeans have, but what type of children they raise.

They could have a greater than replacement fertility rate, but if they were to instill in their children the same narcissistic nihilism that has made modern day Europeans hate themselves and their western heritage as much as they appear to do today, it would all be for naught.

Character is what Counts when Demographics are Destiny.

689 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 9:18:36pm

re: #684 Amillennialist

You'll notice that I've mentioned more than once "truth," "admissions of error," "not compromising principle,"

I would agree that these are important- no- necessary steps that must come before anything else. Speaking only for myself- I won't be holding my breath. Good luck with that reconciliation.

P.S.- Principles have already been compromised by some (if they had any to begin with is open for debate).

690 Amillennialist  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 9:21:03pm

re: #682 Sharmuta

we need everyone of good will working together to defeat jihad.

Well, Amillennialist- I guess that's what it comes down to. Is it your opinion that people who make excuses for fascist are of "good will"?

You're making a false dichotomy, for it is possible for people of good will to err, even grievously.

691 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 9:25:30pm

re: #690 Amillennialist

re: #682 Sharmuta

we need everyone of good will working together to defeat jihad.

Well, Amillennialist- I guess that's what it comes down to. Is it your opinion that people who make excuses for fascist are of "good will"?

You're making a false dichotomy, for it is possible for people of good will to err, even grievously.

No- I'm not. Of course people of good will can err. It is their actions afterwards that speak volumes. After Charles' expose on vb- they are still erring. Is that your idea of "good will"? To continue digging a hole?

692 Render  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 9:46:46pm

[Link: www.usorthemonline.com...]

Comment #9...

"1389 Says:

Everyone,

This is in response to all of the attacks upon Lionheart that have been spread recently, many of them originating from, and fueled by, by Little Green Footballs and Charles Johnson:

Let it be known that I have said REPEATEDLY that Charles Johnson is a traitor, by the definition of the term in the US Constitution, that treason is a capital offense, and that I await the day when the laws against treason are enforced.

Furthermore, I say the same for anybody who supports the efforts and activities of Charles Johnson. Charles Johnson and his supporters are known liars and slanderers. He has not only libeled me, but also has blood-libeled my entire ethnic group.

Charles Johnson merits NO apology from anyone. He will receive none from me.

Charles Johnson only pretends to be an enemy of the jihadists. He is doing everything humanly possible to hurt our cause while using sensational terror stories to gain readership for his blog.

Here is some more background on the entire LGF debacle.

As far as the BNP is concerned, given the fact that Lionheart staunchly supports Israel, I wouldn’t worry about that.

Let it be known that I support Lionheart one hundred percent.

1389

January 17th, 2008 at 8:26 pm"

===

CERTIFIABLE,
R

693 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 10:02:13pm

re: #692 Render

Wow, Render- she said almost the same thing at lionheart's blog.

694 konservo  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 10:10:22pm
695 konservo  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 10:12:10pm

Nope, worded slightly different. But still just as crazy.

696 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 10:17:28pm

re: #695 konservo

I guess her creative abilities are limited.

697 Kirly  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 10:18:19pm
698 Amillennialist  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 11:26:09pm

re: #691 Sharmuta

re: #690 Amillennialist

re: #682 Sharmuta

we need everyone of good will working together to defeat jihad.

Well, Amillennialist- I guess that's what it comes down to. Is it your opinion that people who make excuses for fascist are of "good will"?

You're making a false dichotomy, for it is possible for people of good will to err, even grievously.

No- I'm not. Of course people of good will can err. It is their actions afterwards that speak volumes. After Charles' expose on vb- they are still erring. Is that your idea of "good will"? To continue digging a hole?

Of course not.

The First Rule of Holes is: Stop digging.

699 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 18, 2008 11:33:41pm

re: #698 Amillennialist

Do you agree that one's actions after a mistake speaks of the character of the one who erred? And if so- what actions taken after making a mistake do you think are normal and/or expected in expressing one's "good will"?

700 Amillennialist  Sat, Jan 19, 2008 12:32:43am

re: #697 Kirly

Amillenialism

Kirly,

In light of the outright falsehood in the article to which you link and the difficulty one must go through in order to find it, your post seems only a shameful attempt at demonizing me.

Not that everyone uses Google, but a quick search there for "Amillennialism" turns up 73 results before the libel to which you linked turns up.

Even when you misspell the term as you did, it's still the fourth search result, right after A Defense of Reformed Amillennialism, Wikipedia's entry, and Amillennialism - A Word Direct from Scripture.

If you want to know something about me, you can ask.

You can also go here.

701 konservo  Sat, Jan 19, 2008 12:46:34am
re: #700 Amillennialist

You can also go here.

I've been there, Amillennialist. To be more specific, I've been here and since the original thread that you link to is no longer to be found, I do have a few questions about this:

Yes, "The Jews and their Lies" sounds terrible. Those with an agenda against Luther or Christianity often misrepresent what he wrote to suggest he was a medieval proto-Hitler. That is false.

Again, since the original thread from which you quote is gone, I don't know what to make of this. I've read Luther's "little book" and it is filth.

702 Amillennialist  Sat, Jan 19, 2008 1:12:01am

re: #699 Sharmuta

re: #698 Amillennialist

Do you agree that one's actions after a mistake speaks of the character of the one who erred? And if so- what actions taken after making a mistake do you think are normal and/or expected in expressing one's "good will"?

You're changing the use of "good will" from the way in which I originally used it.

When speaking of Charles, Pamela, and GoV as people of good will, I was not referring to what began and sustains their internecine feud, but to their work against the tyranny of Allah (and other evils).

The times I've visited their sites, they've been generally on the right side of things.

By definition, Pamela's initial post unjustifiably impugning Charles's motives was not in "good will" (though I'm sure she felt justified initially). That the conflict continues is evidence that little, if anything, has changed.

If Pamela's error and apparent failure to address it properly disqualifies her from her place among People of Good Will in your mind, I have no argument with you.

703 konservo  Sat, Jan 19, 2008 1:23:47am

Amillennialist,

Also, I should say that I know what was being argued in that post about Luther, that the Holocaust was not a result of Christian teaching, but the contention that "The Jews and Their Lies" is not extremely antisemitic... I have to disagree.

704 Amillennialist  Sat, Jan 19, 2008 2:19:45am

re: #701 konservo

re: #700 AmillennialistYou can also go here.

I've been there, Amillennialist. To be more specific, I've been here and since the original thread that you link to is no longer to be found, I do have a few questions about this:

Yes, "The Jews and their Lies" sounds terrible. Those with an agenda against Luther or Christianity often misrepresent what he wrote to suggest he was a medieval proto-Hitler. That is false.

Again, since the original thread from which you quote is gone, I don't know what to make of this. I've read Luther's "little book" and it is filth.

I'd be happy to answer any question you have.

Here is more of the context of the quotation you provided from my 'blog:

Hitler's anti-Semitism and genocidal impulse could not have been inspired by Scripture as you imply, since Jesus forbade murder and racism and, most importantly, Christ is Jewish. The first Christians, the Apostles, the Prophets, and the Scriptures themselves are all Hebrew/Jewish!

(If you want to identify a major influence in Hitler's career path, Darwinism seems a good place to start.)

Luther was no anti-Semite. He wrote kindly of Jews in other contexts.

If you ever read "the little book" for yourself (your misuse of the quotes above makes it seem as though you haven't), you'll find several things:

First, Luther's anger was not directed at Jews on racial grounds; it was based on theological grounds (and some practical issues, like usury).

Second, the punishments to which he referred were from the Torah, applicable to the nation of Israel alone under the Mosaic Covenant (see Deuteronomy 13). They were the consequences for Israel's following false gods.

Third, the rhetoric of the sixteenth century often sounds harsh to modern ears. Luther was no exception.

Fourth, Luther was appealing to the government to exercise its civil authority. He was not suggesting Christians harm Jews:

"With prayer and the fear of God we must practice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. We dare not avenge ourselves."

In case you're wondering, I condemn that vile, hateful, raging, and un-Christian document.

705 Amillennialist  Sat, Jan 19, 2008 2:36:15am

re: #703 konservo

Amillennialist,

Also, I should say that I know what was being argued in that post about Luther, that the Holocaust was not a result of Christian teaching, but the contention that "The Jews and Their Lies" is not extremely antisemitic... I have to disagree.

When I stated that Luther was no anti-Semite, I was thinking of two things. First, that the text in question (and two or three others like it) were not indicative of his attitude throughout his life (nor of his body of work). Second, I was using the term in its common, modern sense to refer to hatred of Jews based on race.

In the sense that it expresses hate toward Jews on the basis of their religion, yes, the document is tragically anti-Semitic.

706 Amillennialist  Sat, Jan 19, 2008 3:13:41am

After reading more from both sides of this divide, it looks as though both have things for which they should apologize.

707 wanumba  Sat, Jan 19, 2008 7:52:42am

re: #706 Amillennialist

After reading more from both sides of this divide, it looks as though both have things for which they should apologize.


Only those people who are playing a sly game in the midst of a serious debate about extremely serious issues should consider apologizing.

708 Sabraguy  Sat, Jan 19, 2008 8:41:21am

Perhaps this will act as a wake-up call to the mainstream parties of Europe. In order to stop votes draining away to the Fascists, mainstream politicians will have to figure out why more and more ordinary people are supporting these racist outfits.

And once they see that it is because of the mainstream's failure to confront Islamofascism, and the dhimmitude of the liberal left, they may at last be forced to take a stand, if only to keep themselves in power.

We may not be able to stop the drift towards Fascism, but if used skilfully, the threat of Fascism can be used to stiffen the backbone of our political class in the fight to keep our Western values alive.

709 Red Pencil  Sat, Jan 19, 2008 9:34:17am

[re: #704 Amillennialist

Luther was no anti-Semite. He wrote kindly of Jews in other contexts.

Time is linear. The little book was AFTER his kindly, earlier comments.

His kindly, earlier comments suggested that Jews could be brought to salvation through the Church, if only the Church stopped with the indulgences and so forth. His antisemitic (sorry, they are) comments came AFTER he reformed Christianity and Jews still mysteriously failed to convert.

(Remind you of anyone named Mohammad?)

710 Kirly  Sat, Jan 19, 2008 10:04:05am

re: #700 Amillennialist

re: #697 Kirly


Amillenialism

Kirly,

In light of the outright falsehood in the article to which you link and the difficulty one must go through in order to find it, your post seems only a shameful attempt at demonizing me.

falsehood? be specific or you're just making noise.

Not that everyone uses Google, but a quick search there for "Amillennialism" turns up 73 results before the libel to which you linked turns up.

demonizing you? libel? gee, defensive much?

Even when you misspell the term as you did, it's still the fourth search result, right after A Defense of Reformed Amillennialism, Wikipedia's entry, and Amillennialism - A Word Direct from Scripture.

don't quibble over a typo. it makes you look petty.

direct from scripture, eh? quote us chapter and verse and identify your translation or you're just making noise.

If you want to know something about me, you can ask.

You can also go here.

i know all i need to know about amillenialism and replacement theology. they are dangerous and not Biblical.

711 Amillennialist  Sat, Jan 19, 2008 10:21:14am

re: #709 Red Pencil

[re: #704 Amillennialist

Luther was no anti-Semite. He wrote kindly of Jews in other contexts.

Time is linear. The little book was AFTER his kindly, earlier comments.

His kindly, earlier comments suggested that Jews could be brought to salvation through the Church, if only the Church stopped with the indulgences and so forth. His antisemitic (sorry, they are) comments came AFTER he reformed Christianity and Jews still mysteriously failed to convert.

(Remind you of anyone named Mohammad?)

(If you have to apologize for "antisemitic comments," you didn't really read what I wrote.)

That his comments would remind anyone of Mohammed is another reason that the document is execrable.

It should be remembered that Luther's hateful language is rightly condemned in light of the Biblical texts, but Mohammed's are "divine revelation."

And as far as I know, Luther never preached slavery or death for those who did not convert.

712 Amillennialist  Sat, Jan 19, 2008 11:09:25am

re: #710 Kirly

falsehood . . . making noise . . . demonizing . . . libel . . . defensive . . . quibble . . . over a typo . . . petty . . . quote us chapter and verse and identify your translation or you're just making noise . . . dangerous and not Biblical.

A "typo"? Does that mean you had to search online to find out what amillennialism is? If so, then how can you accuse me of "noise" when you don't even know what the term means?

Out of all the possible articles available to humanity, how do you select one that misrepresents the idea that badly? What does that say about your judgment? Your intentions?

Still I will address your comments.

Speaking of "noise," this is from your link:

"The Church Stands in Proxy of Christ"

"Amillennialism is a belief . . . that the literal return of the Messiah . . . is not true . . . ."

". . . the rule of the church body politic . . . ."

". . . no millenial reign of Christ at all."

"Amillennialism lends itself to a diminishing of the Judaic birthright as firstborn of the chosen of God."

". . . the church "replaces" Israel . . . ."

"and in essence replaces even Christ himself on earth, becoming a self-ordained Christ -in -Proxy."

". . . the Church . . . sets itself in the stead of Christ and the Jewish nation, this position leads to the denigration of both . . . ."

"Instead of a millenium of the reign of Christ on earth, there becomes a "Messianic age" with a church and its figureheads as ushering in a utopian age, reinterpreting scripture in terms of church-initiated doctrine and dogma."

". . . the church replaces Christ as "decision maker" and the church replaces the Word of God as the final authority . . . the church confuses the sovereignty of God's dominion with the dominion given man."

That's a significant majority of the beginning or your article.

It's all false.

Depending on whom you ask (someone trying to link the Biblical understanding of amillennialism with the Holocaust is either a malicious liar or stupendously ignorant), amillennialism is the belief (derived from Scripture) that Christ does reign on Earth through His word, the Church (all believers in Christ) endures the Great Tribulation, and Christ will return to deliver His people at the Last Day. The Biblical distinction between the Spiritual and Civil Kingdoms is recognized and upheld.

This understanding comes directly from the clear testimony of Scripture.

In Matthew 24, Jesus answers His disciples' questions about the destruction of the Temple and the End of the Age. Regarding the end, Christ says that it will come unexpectedly, and He notes the signs that will precede it. His description of it indicates that life will be going on as it always has, that Christians will be persecuted, and that His return will come without warning.

From the ESV:

"For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man" (Matthew 24:38, 39).


Or from the King James, 1611:

"For as in the dayes that were before the Flood, they were eating, and drinking, marrying, and giuing in mariage, vntill the day that Noe entred into the Arke, And knew not vntill the Flood came, and tooke them all away: so shall also the comming of the Sonne of man be" (Matthew 24:38, 39).

More to come . . . .

713 Amillennialist  Sat, Jan 19, 2008 11:11:35am

"of your article"

714 Amillennialist  Sat, Jan 19, 2008 11:54:31am

More for Kirly . . .

On the "true Israel," straight from the Apostle Paul who described himself as a "Hebrew of Hebrews," was an expert in the Law of Moses (he was a Pharisee), and who persecuted the Early Church.

Just before these comments Paul laments that he would go to hell in place of his fellow Jews:

"not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.'

"This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring" (Romans 9:6-9).

This echoes John the Baptist and his Cousin's charges against the Jewish religious leadership who counted their genetic history as sufficient for salvation, even though they rejected their God and His Messiah.

From John:

"do not presume to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father,' for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham" (Matthew 3:9).

From his Cousin, the Son of God:

"They answered him, 'Abraham is our father.'

"Jesus said to them, 'If you were Abraham's children, you would be doing what Abraham did, but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did'" (John 8:39, 40).

And again back to Paul:

"For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God" (Romans 2:28, 29).

On God's Chosen People, from the Apostle Peter, to Christians (who by this time were not only Jewish, but also Gentile):

"it stands in Scripture: 'Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.'

. . .

But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light" (1 Peter 2:6, 9).

On Jew and Gentile being now one man in Christ, from Paul:

"Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called 'the uncircumcision' by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands--remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

"But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

"For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility" (Ephesians 2:11-16).

And, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28).

As for the Tribulation, it's not some future event:

"I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus" (Revelation 1:9).

A place at which confusion (and outright deception) comes is in misreading Revelation. Reading the New Testament texts regarding the end without Revelation leads to the commonsense understanding noted above from Matthew. People see the numbers and signs in Revelation -- which are intended to be understood symbolically, not literally -- and make up all sorts of nonsense.

More to come . . . .

715 Amillennialist  Sat, Jan 19, 2008 12:18:37pm

More for Kirly on Revelation and the Apostles' expectation of Christ's imminent return. . .

Demonstrating that the visions John received by revelation contained symbolism:

"Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this.

"As for the mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand, and the seven golden lampstands, the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches" (Revelation 1:19, 20).

We know from Scripture that Christ resurrected physically, so this bit from Chapter 5 contains symbolism:

"And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth" (Revelation 5:6).

If you want to argue that Revelation does not use symbolism, would you say that Jesus in Heaven has a sword in His mouth? Or that there's only 144,000 people in Heaven?

As for the Apostles' expecting Christ's imminent return, here's a little from Paul:

"the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed.

"The night is far gone; the day is at hand" (Romans 13:11, 12).

From Peter:

"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

"Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God" (2 Peter 3: 10-12).

And from John:

"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.

"The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.

"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

"He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!" (Revelation 22:16-20)

And from the author of the Letter to the Hebrews (possibly Paul):

"And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near" (Hebrews 10:24, 25).

If there is anything else I can clarify, let me know.

Peace.

716 Kirly  Sat, Jan 19, 2008 12:34:50pm

amillenialist

you are a dishonest debater and not worth the effort.

anyone can read the Bible and see the meaning. ammillenialism is not derived from a plain, straightforward reading of any translation.

end of discussion.

kirls

717 Amillennialist  Sat, Jan 19, 2008 12:54:15pm

re: #716 Kirly

amillenialist

you are a dishonest debater and not worth the effort.

anyone can read the Bible and see the meaning. ammillenialism is not derived from a plain, straightforward reading of any translation.

end of discussion.

kirls

How is presenting specific citations -- just as you requested -- "dishonest debating"? Isn't that more honest than name-calling and condescension?

Matthew 24 is available to all who want to read it. All the other citations I provided are likewise verifiable. Those who are curious will be able to determine for themselves who is telling the truth.

Do you realize that amillennialism was and is common among the early Christians and the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran, Reformed, and Anglican churches?

Your reaction here makes me think it was an honest mistake. No harm done, though it would be more honest to admit the error.

Perhaps this will be more useful to you than my comments

Peace.

718 Kirly  Sat, Jan 19, 2008 2:30:01pm

ah, i see what you are, in addition to a fervent believer in replacement theology.... someone who doesn't believe the Bible says what it means. I am a literalist. I believe the words in the Bible. You think they must be interpreted symbolically. Well, good luck with finding the correct symbolic interpretation since there are thousands of different schools of thought on that. Me? I just believe what God Himself revealed.

719 wanumba  Sat, Jan 19, 2008 10:55:04pm

re: #717 Amillennialist
Your words from one of your earlier posts:

We need division among the enemies of Western Civilization, and unity among those defending it (Charles, Gates of Vienna, et al, that means you).


Sounds good, except that this entire debate from the get-go hinges on determining if Gates of Vienna and company are friends or in fact enemies of Western Civilization. There shouldn't have been a brawl, but there is one, so things are not at all what they had seemed.

What does the Bible say? "Do not yoke yourselves with unbelievers."

There is nothing wrong and everything right about making the critical determination that one's allies are indeed allies.

720 Amillennialist  Sun, Jan 20, 2008 12:58:26am

re: #718 Kirly

someone who doesn't believe the Bible says what it means . . . You think they must be interpreted symbolically.

Another misrepresentation of what I believe.

I stated that the Scriptures should be understood as they were intended to be understood. This means (among other things) that the symbols in Revelation should be understood as symbols.

As for "believing the Bible," you link to an article on amillennialism so rank with falsehood as to seem intentionally misleading, while I cite specifically the Word of God.

Who then is actually "believing the Bible"?

I am a literalist. I believe the words in the Bible . . . I just believe what God Himself revealed.

If you believe the Word of God, then you should say what It says. If you believe what God has revealed, then you must take Him at His word and read His Texts in the way in which they were intended: History as history, commandment as commandment, poetry as poetry, symbolism in apocalyptic literature as symbolism, parable as parable, metaphor as metaphor, etc.

When Christ says, "I stand at the door and knock," is He literally at your door? When Jesus says, "I am the door of the sheep," is He a literal, physical sheep gate? When He says that a man must be born again to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, does that mean he has to enter his mother's uterus?

If you take figurative language in Scripture literally, then you misread and pervert His Word.

721 Amillennialist  Sun, Jan 20, 2008 1:22:19am

re: #719 wanumba

re: #717 Amillennialist
Your words from one of your earlier posts:

We need division among the enemies of Western Civilization, and unity among those defending it (Charles, Gates of Vienna, et al, that means you).

Sounds good, except that this entire debate from the get-go hinges on determining if Gates of Vienna and company are friends or in fact enemies of Western Civilization. There shouldn't have been a brawl, but there is one, so things are not at all what they had seemed.

What does the Bible say? "Do not yoke yourselves with unbelievers."

There is nothing wrong and everything right about making the critical determination that one's allies are indeed allies.

From what I've read of their work, the proposition that Pamela or GoV are enemies of Western Civilization is utterly without merit.

722 Amillennialist  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:12:10pm

Kirly, Render,

No doubt you rate my posts low on theological grounds.

Or is it because you cannot win on the merits of your arguments (if you can call unsubstantiated character assassination and theological malpractice "arguments")?

723 Amillennialist  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:57:50pm

Luther's final word on his attitude toward the Jewish people, from his last sermon:

"We want to treat them with Christian love and to pray for them, so that they might become converted and would receive the Lord" (Weimar edition, Vol. 51, p. 195).

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