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Hitchens: To Hell With the Archbishop of Canterbury

Mon, Feb 11, 2008 at 3:36:52 pm PST

Christopher Hitchens has a good piece on the Archbishop’s sharia idiocy: The archbishop of Canterbury’s dangerous embrace of sharia.

Picture the life of a young Urdu-speaking woman brought to Yorkshire from Pakistan to marry a man—quite possibly a close cousin—whom she has never met. He takes her dowry, beats her, and abuses the children he forces her to bear. She is not allowed to leave the house unless in the company of a male relative and unless she is submissively covered from head to toe. Suppose that she is able to contact one of the few support groups that now exist for the many women in Britain who share her plight. What she ought to be able to say is, “I need the police, and I need the law to be enforced.” But what she will often be told is, “Your problem is better handled within the community.” And those words, almost a death sentence, have now been endorsed and underwritten—and even advocated—by the country’s official spiritual authority.

You might argue that I am describing an extreme case (though, alas, now not an uncommon one), but it is the principle of equality before the law that really counts. And just look at how casually this sheep-faced English cleric throws away the work of centuries of civilization:

[A]n approach to law which simply said “there’s one law for everybody and that’s all there is to be said, and anything else that commands your loyalty or allegiance is completely irrelevant in the processes of the courts”—I think that’s a bit of a danger.
In the midst of this dismal verbiage and euphemism, the plain statement—“There’s one law for everybody and that’s all there is to be said”—still stands out like a diamond in a dunghill. It stands out precisely because it is said simply, and because its essential grandeur is intelligible to everybody.
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194 comments

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1 Carridine  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 3:37:55pm

And THIS is why Hitchens is my FAVORITE leftist! :D

2 WrathofG-d  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 3:38:09pm

Who are we to judge?

Shouldn't these people have the choice to live under Sharia?

;)

3 Ojoe  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 3:40:38pm

You might write to the Queen and ask her to dismiss her Bishop. I believe she could, after all one of her titles is "Defender of the Faith".


The Royal Family's official website with contact information.

4 Carridine  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 3:40:46pm

re: #2 WrathofG-d

Not in MY country, Wrath!

/they can go back to the Islamo-thug hellholes of this world if they want Shari-a law...

5 RadicalRon  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 3:41:12pm

A debate between Hitchens and the archbishop would be a treat.

6 saberry0530  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 3:41:38pm

re: #1 Carridine

And THIS is why Hitchens is my FAVORITE leftist! :D

Think that Hitchens is more Hitchens than a lefty.

7 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 3:41:55pm

Despite popular belief I'm not the biggest Hitch fan but he nails this one.

8 Ma Sands  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 3:42:48pm
“There’s one law for everybody and that’s all there is to be said”


The utter antidote to "racism". :)

9 Fasternu426  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 3:43:18pm

The crocodile will eat him last....

10 Sifty  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 3:44:18pm

Mr. Archbishop, your pineapple is waiting.

11 Ojoe  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 3:45:22pm

re: #8 Ma Sands

No more special treatment for anybody either. That's the definition of nobility, and the Constitution forbids to have nobility in the USA.


And I just suggested writing to the Queen!

12 WrathofG-d  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 3:45:48pm

I never understood a religious figure that advocated the following of another religion.

If the believes the Jesus' was is the correct one....wouldn't every other way be a sin?

What is it with you Jesus followers? 1st the Pope, then this guy?

13 DesertSage  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 3:47:27pm

God loves Christopher Hitchens and Killgore Trout!

14 doppelganglander  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 3:47:33pm
There is one law for everybody.

Yes, yes, and yes.

15 mama winger  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 3:47:48pm
16 WrathofG-d  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 3:48:31pm

re: #12 WrathofG-d

I never understood a religious figure that advocated the following of another religion.

If the believes the Jesus' was is the correct one....wouldn't every other way be a sin?

What is it with you Jesus followers? 1st the Pope, then this guy?

Ok that came off a bit harsher then I meant it. It was supposed to be snark, but it sort of came off rude...sorry about that.

17 EC Marm  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 3:48:31pm

When I was young I couldn't understand my ancestors tossin' the tea in the harbor thing. Or why the French were on our side. It takes more than a few years to figure it out.

18 Sifty  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 3:48:49pm

re: #15 mama winger

I think the the cheese slid off Mini-Gandalf's cracker.

19 Ojoe  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 3:49:11pm

re: #12 WrathofG-d

Not the Pope. Check out this LGF post from after he was elected

#179 True German Ally 4/20/2005 8:57:37 am PDT

Pope Benedict may come across as the Great Inquisitor, but he has never refused discussion and arguments. He is firm on the "essentials" of the Catholic faith. The German Catholic professors he suspended clearly violated the essential principles of Catholicism. He is an extremely intelligent, bright personality... a bit shy with people though. He won't pretend to have the charisma of JPII.

From my conversations with him in the late 70s, when he was archbishop of Munich, I learned a few things about him:

1) That he hated the Nazis even during his short time in the Hitler Youth. He was a nominal member, but was exempted weeks after his compulsory joining because of his fragile health and studies in the Catholic seminary (many boys actually joined Catholic institutions to avoid service in the HJ.) His teen years had a lasting effect on him as he was able to see the difference between reality and what the Nazis taught. His love for truth and being truthful all the time stems from this early experience.

2) He was a progressive Catholic in his early year (played an important role at the 2nd Vaticanum), but the intolerance of 1968 made him change his mind. He abhorred communism and the carefree nihilist thinkings in these times and became a conservative, but not a reactionary, as many claim.

3) He saw the dangers of Islamic fanatism in the 70s already. Khomeini was a menetekel for him. At this time he didn't see Islam so much as a threat for Europe (yet), but for Asia and Africa.

4) He is more a friend of the Jews than most other Catholic priests. I remember him saying that Christians and Jews are on the same direction to salvation, just on different paths. Islam instead was an aberration that would lead humanity into a religious "dead end street" (Sackgasse was his exact word). He strongly favoured a rapprochement between the Catholic and Jewish faith, but didn't see any common ground between Christianity and Islam.


And yes, I think, we'll see a few surprises from him in the next years. I had to chuckle when I heard the Chicoms demands today. Oh boy, they are messing with the wrong guy here.

Benedict of Nursia one restored the Christian faith in a devastated Europe. Commentators have focussed much on Benedict XV as the closest role model of Ratzinger. But I think he's much closer to Benedict XIV.

[Link: [Link: www.newadvent.org...]...]

And yes, he loved the "Apfelmaultaschen" (pasta made with potato flour, filled with apples and powder sugar and cinnamon on top) my wife prepared for him :-)

They look like this:
[Link: [Link: www.donau.de...]...]

I guess you won't find this detail on CNN :-)

20 mbruce  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 3:49:52pm

Yup, with sharia in place, honor killings, attacking police and firemen, bombing things, all covered and okeedokee by the foul archbish.
Nail him Hitch.
Oh, maybe a bad way of putting it......

21 yesandno  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 3:50:07pm

You cannot let others prevail and then fail to grasp you are no longer in charge.


The law is the law is the law.

22 David IV of Georgia  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 3:50:48pm

Silly Rowan gave up before the fight started. Hope, man person, hope. Despair is a sin.

As the angel said to St. Polycarp as he was being led to execution, " Ανδριζ&#959&upsil on;" "Be a man."

23 zombie  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 3:51:19pm

re: #5 RadicalRon

A debate between Hitchens and the archbishop would be a treat.

No, it would be a massacre.

Which is better than a treat!

24 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 3:51:42pm

re: #12 WrathofG-d

I suspect he sees a common cause with Muslims against secularism and atheists.

25 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 3:52:20pm
26 Ma Sands  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 3:52:50pm

re: #16 WrathofG-d

Okay then. :) Think "nuanced" --it might help the beginning of a discussion........ :)

-- not that I consider "nuances"......I believe rather, in truths.....

27 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 3:52:58pm

I'm not sure if this has come up before, but has anyone noticed the divergent paths Pope Benedict and the Archbishop of Canterbury have taken vis a vis sharia and militant Islam?

28 mama winger  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 3:53:06pm

In related news, Laity Leaps off the Episcopal Titanic

another gospel .....

29 snowcrash  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 3:53:09pm

Always impressed with his writing skills whatever the topic.

30 Ojoe  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 3:53:18pm

re: #24 Killgore Trout

Do tell.

*Snort*.

31 Dar ul Harb  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 3:53:25pm
re: #5 RadicalRon

A debate between Hitchens and the archbishop would be a treat.

No, it would be a massacre.

Which is better than a treat!

Hitchens would delight in matching wits with an unarmed cleric.

32 Jack Reacher  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 3:53:57pm
...there’s one law for everybody and that’s all there is to be said...I think that’s a bit of a danger.


I still can't quite wrap my mind around why he thinks applying the law equally to everyone is "a danger."
Truly, some of the animals are more equal than others.

33 Ojoe  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 3:53:58pm

re: #27 Fenway_Nation

They diverged with Henry VIII, probably.

34 vapig  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 3:54:44pm

Most of the time this fellow annoys me - but twice in the last couple of weeks he and I are in complete agreement.

Has something frozen over?

35 J.S.  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 3:54:59pm

I don't bother with this liar and antisemite...And, how this lying antisemite refuses to denounce Islam without, of course, denouncing Judaism. It's part and parcel of this Hitchens-the-liar's agenda. Thus, I do not bother with the moron...He's as demented as any Islamist -- he just has a different "religion."

36 Lizard by the Bay  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 3:55:12pm

re: #24 Killgore Trout

re: #12 WrathofG-d

I suspect he sees a common cause with Muslims against secularism and atheists.

Lay down with dogs, wake up with fleas. Simply because Muslims are people of faith doesn't mean that their faith looks anything like ours.

37 mama winger  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 3:55:16pm

The Archbishop has a website.

38 Ma Sands  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 3:56:24pm

re: #34 vapig

Nope. You think he himself might, way far back in his mind & heart where he can't quite recognize it yet, might be thawing.....? :)

39 pegcity  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 3:58:36pm

re: #20 mbruce

Yup, with sharia in place, honor killings, attacking police and firemen, bombing things, all covered and okeedokee by the foul archbish.
Nail him Hitch.
Oh, maybe a bad way of putting it......

clockwork orange society

They are screwd

40 sbvft contributor  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 3:59:19pm

"And just look at how casually this sheep-faced English cleric throws away the work of centuries of civilization"

Beautimous.

41 abolitionist  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:00:00pm

Sharia law applies one way to believers, and another way to the unfaithful kuffar, sons of pigs and monkeys, abominable enemies of allah, and any who make mischief in the land.

Among believers, sharia law applies one way to females, and another way to real people.

See? One law for everyone!
/

42 Da_Beerfreak  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:00:06pm

Now folks we shouldn't be picking on this doddering old man. It’s obvious that being The Ayatollah Canterbury is a very difficult job now days.

43 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:00:11pm

re: #30 Ojoe

Society is moving faster than churches these days. IIRC, the American Episcopal franchise is splitting due to acceptance of homosexuals. Church attendance in the UK and Europe is declining because the churches aren't offering a religion the people want. Many are wandering away from spirituality in general. I think the archbishop sees this as way to get religion and religious values back into mainstream society.

44 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:00:33pm

re: #37 mama winger

The Archbishop has a website.

Maybe he wants to practice both religions. It's been tried before.

45 mama winger  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:00:47pm

This may shed some light into the mind of the Archbishop. Apparently he is a patron of this organization:

PEACE MALA

46 vapig  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:00:52pm

#38 Ma Sands


Aaahhhhh! I hadn't thought of that!

Do you perhaps think that as he gets closer to the end he thinks (even secretly) that perhaps there is something over the rainbow?

47 Jimmah  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:01:15pm

Great piece by Hitchens.

48 BulgarWheat  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:01:17pm

re: #24 Killgore Trout

He may see that, but he'd miss the point. Don't for one second think that I, or others on this blog would forsake you because you've taken the secular route.

It isn't so.

I am your brother and would hope some day we can shoulder the same burden. That is raising up humanity up out of the ashes and marching forward to our own drummers beat.

Fair enough?

49 mama winger  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:01:30pm

re: #45 mama winger

Peace Mala was founded in the year 2002 by Pam Evans, former Head of the Department of Religious Studies at Coedcae Comprehensive School in Llanelli, South Wales. The idea came after a series of class discussions about the Tuesday September 11, 2001 attacks in New York. Pam and her students soon realised that the attacks had affected not only the victims of the atrocity, but that they had also contributed to the rise in Islamaphobia, racism, religious intolerance and fundamentalism witnessed in the world today. Racist taunts had been suffered by a number of Muslim pupils and other children from ethnic minority backgrounds.[2]

This was particularly felt by Year 11 student Imran Sheikh, whose family originated from Pakistan. During an interview by BBC Wales, he commented "I suffered from racist taunts and our local mosque was attacked following September 11 and that is when the Peace Mala all started"[

50 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:03:00pm
51 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:03:27pm
52 mama winger  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:03:29pm

re: #43 Killgore Trout

re: #30 Ojoe

Society is moving faster than churches these days. IIRC, the American Episcopal franchise is splitting due to acceptance of homosexuals. Church attendance in the UK and Europe is declining because the churches aren't offering a religion the people want. Many are wandering away from spirituality in general. I think the archbishop sees this as way to get religion and religious values back into mainstream society.

Except in actuality it works out just the opposite. The churches that hold to strong core values are growing, and the mealy mouth liberal churches are in steep decline. Becoming more liberal does not help a church - it hurts it. The statistics are clear.

53 DesertSage  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:04:09pm

It's just too damn hot, I've been sweating my ass off all day.

54 macduff  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:04:24pm

“There’s one law for everybody and that’s all there is to be said”—still stands out like a diamond in a dunghill. It stands out precisely because it is said simply, and because its essential grandeur is intelligible to everybody.

It's like something that should be engraved in marble. It just says all that need be said in an economy of words.

55 mama winger  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:04:39pm

re: #53 DesertSage

It's just too damn hot, I've been sweating my ass off all day.

Oh cry me a river.

56 Atweber  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:04:54pm

Sometimes hitchens gets it right sometimes he's got his head up his ass ---what is that all about?
Disagreement is the crucible of knowledge---Bill Whittle

57 EC Marm  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:05:26pm

Since someone *cough* WofG *cough* mentioned the Pope, I'd like to mention this. He has decided to respond to the letter from the "138 muslim scholars" and conduct an "interfaith meeting." Personally I think it is a waste of time, but it is interesting to notice some details about the folks that will be attending:

The Muslim delegation is composed of several scholars. Foremost among them is Aref Ali Nayed, a member of the Interfaith Program of the Faculty of Divinity at the University of Cambridge and a former teacher at the Pontifical Institute of Arab and Islamic Studies in Rome. Another representative is Yahya Sergio Yahe Pallavicini, a prominent Italian Muslim who is the head of the al-Wahid mosque in Milan and vice-president of the Islamic Religious Community of Italy. Other delegates include Ibrahim Kalin, a professor from Turkey who teaches at Georgetown University, and Sohail Nakhooda, originally from Jordan, who is director of “Islamica Magazine,” which is edited in the United States.

Aref Ali Nayed is one of the leading Muslim experts in Western philosophy and Christian theology, having studied at the Gregorian in Rome as well as universities in the United States and Canada. One of the major architects of the 138 Muslim scholars’ letter, he has also personally replied to Cardinal Tauran’s message to Muslims addressed during the last Ramadan.

According to Sandro Magister, Yahya Pallavicini is the son of Abd al-Wahid Pallavicini, a European convert to Sufi Islam who participated in the 1986 interreligious prayer meeting in Assisi organized by Pope John Paul II. Yahya Pallavicini, 43, has been a consultant on Islam for the Italian interior ministry since 2006. A devout Muslim critic of violent tendencies of Muslim thought and practice, he has said that "acts of violence find no legitimization in the teachings of the prophet Mohammed or of the wise men." He has also opposed separatist uses of Sharia law and what he called “the culture of hatred” found in many Italian mosques, whose imams he calls “political instigators with nothing authentically Islamic about them." source


The phrases "lip service" and "going through the motions" come to mind, but perhaps some change can come about in the Islamic mindset because of this meeting.

58 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:05:27pm
59 mama winger  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:06:12pm

re: #58 buzzsawmonkey

re: #55 mama winger

re: #53 DesertSage

It's just too damn hot, I've been sweating my ass off all day.

Oh cry me a river.

Where you are now, it would just freeze.

I can't even go to the mailbox.

60 mean Gene  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:06:20pm

In a weird way this archbishop has started an examination of islamic law and culture in the UK and elsewhere.
It sort of reminds me of how Zawahiri and Zarqawi carped back and forth about the idea of stopping with the murdering of fellow (albeit "apostate") muslims until the infidel US force was routed in Iraq and Afghanistan.
I'd wager the islamists of UK wish he'd have kept his big mouth shut, too.

61 Ma Sands  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:06:21pm

re: #43 Killgore Trout

The Church doesn't move --people do, with their understanding of what makes up the Church. That's what revivals are all about --people who have moved away from understanding, moving back, or into it for the first time.

62 vapig  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:06:46pm

#52 mama winger

You are absolutley correct! We see that happening in our town right before our eyes.

Our church is growing nicely - and Pastor is rigid, TOUGH, and spot on!

63 DesertSage  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:07:12pm

re: #55 mama winger

re: #53 DesertSage

It's just too damn hot, I've been sweating my ass off all day.

Oh cry me a river.

People were just not meant to sweat in February!

64 mama winger  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:07:19pm

re: #60 mean Gene

In a weird way this archbishop has started an examination of islamic law and culture in the UK and elsewhere.

mysterious ways indeed

65 Da_Beerfreak  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:07:40pm
re: #34 vapig

Most of the time this fellow annoys me - but twice in the last couple of weeks he and I are in complete agreement.

Has something frozen over?

It was -39°F in International Falls MN this morning. (And that was air temp, not wind chill.)

66 mama winger  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:07:41pm

re: #63 DesertSage

re: #55 mama winger

re: #53 DesertSage

It's just too damn hot, I've been sweating my ass off all day.

Oh cry me a river.

People were just not meant to sweat in February!

I haven't sweat since Labor Day.

67 Ma Sands  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:07:44pm

re: #46 vapig

It's happened before --quite often, in fact. :)

68 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:08:06pm
69 rcris5  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:08:25pm

#5

A debate would be fun and we may find that the good bishop is as much and atheist as Hitchens is.

70 mama winger  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:08:35pm

re: #67 Ma Sands


You staying warm up there, Ma? Your probably colder than I am.

71 vapig  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:08:48pm
#55 mama winger 2/11/08 4:04:39 pm reply quote report 0

re: #53 DesertSage

It's just too damn hot, I've been sweating my ass off all day.

Oh cry me a river.

We woke up to 9 degress - so I will echo you!

72 pegcity  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:09:05pm

re: #55 mama winger

re: #53 DesertSage


It's just too damn hot, I've been sweating my ass off all day.

Oh cry me a river.

its -25 here send some heat our way

73 mama winger  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:09:19pm

re: #68 ploome hineni

this archbishop is forcing more of the same stuff that the people are rejecting

And there's our winner , folks !

74 Jimmah  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:09:29pm
[A]n approach to law which simply said "there's one law for everybody and that's all there is to be said, and anything else that commands your loyalty or allegiance is completely irrelevant in the processes of the courts"—I think that's a bit of a danger.

I think the archbishop is actually allergic to moral and logical clarity.

75 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:10:24pm

re: #48 BulgarWheat

He may see that, but he'd miss the point.


Yeah, I think it's an alliance that won't work. It reminds me of A Common Word , the Christians are going to be left with the short end of the stick.

76 vapig  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:10:26pm

#65 Da_Beerfreak

LOL! I think you know that's not what I was referring to!

77 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:10:28pm
78 mean Gene  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:10:58pm

re: #64 mama winger

re: #60 mean Gene

In a weird way this archbishop has started an examination of islamic law and culture in the UK and elsewhere.

mysterious ways indeed

In the UK, if a muslim comes there with his four wives and umpteen children they get large amounts of welfare.
If a native Brit tries the same, he goes to jail.
So, it's worse than sharia.
In islamic countries a man must support all his own, himself.
In gateway sharia appeasement states, like the UK, socialism tries to appease even the weakest muslim.

79 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:11:22pm
80 J.S.  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:11:31pm

re: #69 rcris5

Frankly, I figure all three -- that's Leftist Anglicans, Hitchens, and radical islamists -- all atheists, all antisemites, all hate-mongers. I have to laugh -- there's little by way of "differences." They've got far more in common than what might separate them.

81 gymnast  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:12:03pm

Seems that the Arch Bishop has a did of confusion about which Prophet he serves. Not to mention some cognative disonence when comparing the Koran to the Rights of Man. Perhaps the Arch Bishop wishes that he were the Abd Bishop?

82 flyingcloud  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:12:10pm

The ArchiB should resign. He is the equivalent of Sauroman in reality.

83 mama winger  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:12:36pm

From the BBC

10 things you didn't know about Rowan Williams

* Rowan Williams is unable to drive. His chaplain used to drive him everywhere, so the chauffeur-driven world of Lambeth must have come naturally
* He is hard of hearing in one of his ears
* He was a keen actor at Oxford, starring as Thomas More in A Man for All Seasons
* He learnt Russian in six months. He speaks seven languages, including Welsh
* He has had curious fashion tastes with a particular fondness for black berets
* He insists on always travelling second-class
* He is married to the daughter of the the Rt Rev Geoffrey Paul. Jane Williams' father is the former Bishop of Bradford and a highly respected evangelical leader
* Although he taught at a number of theological colleges, he is the only bishop never to have gone through training for ordination
* At school, he had a permanent note excusing him from sports
* He is very fond of classical music, particularly Renaissance Baroque and Bach

84 Lizard by the Bay  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:12:46pm

re: #68 ploome hineni

Damn, I wish I could plus that post more than once. Secularizing religion is why the churches stand empty.

85 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:12:54pm

re: #52 mama winger

I'm not sure if that's true. I wonder if there are reliable statistics on that somewhere.

86 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:13:38pm
87 Ma Sands  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:13:43pm

re: #70 mama winger

Can't help but stay warm.....vehicle won't start, so I have to stay indoors --where my heat is working fine-er than since I moved into this house more'n 20 years ago.....

she says, shyly...


/// :)

88 mama winger  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:14:05pm
* At school, he had a permanent note excusing him from sports

ahhhh - there ya go

89 mama winger  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:14:57pm

re: #87 Ma Sands

I had a hard time with my car today too. Too cold. Stay put and drink cocoa, Ma. and think warm thoughts :)

90 mama winger  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:15:25pm

re: #85 Killgore Trout

re: #52 mama winger

I'm not sure if that's true. I wonder if there are reliable statistics on that somewhere.

It's way true.

Let me dig.

91 sbvft contributor  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:16:42pm

re: #84 Lizard by the Bay

re: #68 ploome hineni

Damn, I wish I could plus that post more than once. Secularizing religion is why the churches stand empty.

Exactly. If you're religion doesn't believe in much of anything anymore, or requires no special adherence to a set of values, why bother?

92 nyc redneck  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:16:48pm

re: #88 mama winger

* At school, he had a permanent note excusing him from sports

ahhhh - there ya go

he's a weakling. of course he's going to do preemptive capitulation. that's his sport.

93 EC Marm  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:16:54pm

re: #77 ploome hineni

re: #57 EC Marm

he needs to meet with muslims from the 'vatican' of islam
from Egypt and Saudi

not from the takkilopes who have the lies down pat, from their western Christian educations


I see your point. But 1.5 billion Catholics are represented by this one man, while 1.6 billion muslims are represented by 1.6 billion points of view. Which is one of many reasons why I am so skeptical that any progress will be made.
But I've been wrong before, and any progress towards freedom of religion in islamic countries could be a very good thing.

94 vapig  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:18:37pm
#85 Killgore Trout 2/11/08 4:12:54 pm reply quote report 0

re: #52 mama winger

I'm not sure if that's true. I wonder if there are reliable statistics on that somewhere.

I'm sure there are statistics out there to prove mama winger correct.

I can tell you that several churches have closed down in our town due to low attendance - most of these are methodist (the church that declared the bible hate speech and accepts other doctrines not welcome by most churches) other churches here are thriving and we are actually having problems finding Pastors to fill them all.

95 realwest  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:18:42pm

Hit and Run post boys and girls but apparently Black Berry smart phones have lost service across the United States, wireless carriers said Monday.

In a statement, AT&T spokesman Fletcher Cook said the disruption is affecting all wireless carriers. Cook said the company first learned about the problem from BlackBerry maker Research in Motion about 3:30 p.m. EST (2030 GMT).
There was no word on the cause or how widespread the outage was.

Link is in spinoff links above.

96 Da_Beerfreak  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:19:08pm
re: #76 vapig

#65 Da_Beerfreak

LOL! I think you know that's not what I was referring to!

LOL,
I know, but its been one hell of a cold weekend in Minnesota!
// {;-)™

97 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:20:06pm
98 Kohenan the Barbarian  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:20:10pm

Yet again the Archbishop of irrelevance and naval gazing opens his mouth and disgorges convoluted drivel and baffle gab--a devout Antisemite camouflaged in multicultural bilge water --what a useless insidious Shmuck!

99 tiburon  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:20:20pm

Well well. I certainly hope that someone has pointed out that The Law that applies to EVERYONE is quite clearly spelled out in the core Scripture of our dear Archbishop's faith. To wit(less): - Noahide Nations.

Unbelievable. "and they shall be led by children" "the rulers of that day will have the face of a dog" - Refering days leading up to Messiah.

100 A Kiwi Infidel  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:22:37pm

time for a new Archbishop of Canturbury

101 vapig  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:22:44pm
#96 Da_Beerfreak 2/11/08 4:19:08 pm reply quote report 0

re: #76 vapig
#65 Da_Beerfreak

LOL! I think you know that's not what I was referring to!

LOL,
I know, but its been one hell of a cold weekend in Minnesota!
// {;-)™

I hear you, friend, and feel your pain!

This global warming is going freeze us all to death! Or at least cost some of us our toes to frostbite! Weeellll - at least it FEELS that way!

102 yesandno  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:22:55pm

re: #83 mama winger

From the BBC

10 things you didn't know about Rowan Williams

* Rowan Williams is unable to drive. His chaplain used to drive him everywhere, so the chauffeur-driven world of Lambeth must have come naturally
* He is hard of hearing in one of his ears
* He was a keen actor at Oxford, starring as Thomas More in A Man for All Seasons
* He learnt Russian in six months. He speaks seven languages, including Welsh
* He has had curious fashion tastes with a particular fondness for black berets
* He insists on always travelling second-class
* He is married to the daughter of the the Rt Rev Geoffrey Paul. Jane Williams' father is the former Bishop of Bradford and a highly respected evangelical leader
* Although he taught at a number of theological colleges, he is the only bishop never to have gone through training for ordination
* At school, he had a permanent note excusing him from sports
* He is very fond of classical music, particularly Renaissance Baroque and Bach

And #11--It has been 35+ years since he trimmed his eyebrows!

103 rwmofo  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:23:30pm

Hitchens is one of my favorite debaters. I've never seen him lose a fight.

104 EC Marm  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:27:54pm

re: #97 ploome hineni

re: #93 EC Marm

the jihadis get their inspiration forn the old country, these western trained muslims should go to Pakistan, Arabia, Egypt and Indonesia

not Rome

these western trained muslims need to educate the wackos in the ME


IMHO, one of two things is going to happen, a smackdown to some islamic country of biblical proportions, or some movement to reform and unify islam. Unfortunately, I see the first as more likely before the second. But PB VXI can give the second option a try.

105 akak  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:29:01pm

Russian bomber aircraft approached a US Aircraft carrier in the Pacific on Saturday and were intercepted by American fighter jets, a US Defense official said on Monday.

106 akak  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:30:03pm
The bombers, flying south of Japan, were detected turning toward the USS Nimitz aircraft carrier and its accompanying ships. Four US F/A-18 fighters were launched to intercept the Russian aircraft, the official said. (Reuters)
107 BulgarWheat  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:30:42pm

re: #75 Killgore Trout

I'm just going to have to take this on faith. I don't doubt you, and I don't doubt my G-d. I'm comfortable with that as my bath-robe.

Take care, mi amigo!

108 debutaunt  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:33:08pm

re: #51 ploome hineni

..this 'archbishop' should be force out to save any shred of relevance that remains attached to the Church of England

not resign, but fired..tossed out

A visible bootprint?

109 macduff  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:33:50pm

re: #83 mama winger

From the BBC

10 things you didn't know about Rowan Williams

* Rowan Williams is unable to drive. His chaplain used to drive him everywhere, so the chauffeur-driven world of Lambeth must have come naturally
* He is hard of hearing in one of his ears
* He was a keen actor at Oxford, starring as Thomas More in A Man for All Seasons
* He learnt Russian in six months. He speaks seven languages, including Welsh
* He has had curious fashion tastes with a particular fondness for black berets
* He insists on always travelling second-class
* He is married to the daughter of the the Rt Rev Geoffrey Paul. Jane Williams' father is the former Bishop of Bradford and a highly respected evangelical leader
* Although he taught at a number of theological colleges, he is the only bishop never to have gone through training for ordination
* At school, he had a permanent note excusing him from sports
* He is very fond of classical music, particularly Renaissance Baroque and Bach

So, he can be summed up as something of an "intellectual oddball"?

110 debutaunt  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:34:07pm

re: #53 DesertSage

It's just too damn hot, I've been sweating my ass off all day.

Working in a foundry?

111 mama winger  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:34:32pm

Killgore - sorry - I got interrupted......

Here is one study - I have to run off but you can google Denominational growth decline data if you'd like more info.

112 Geepers  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:35:10pm

Rowan is indicative of Britain's huge problems.

113 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:35:46pm
114 A Kiwi Infidel  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:35:46pm
* He is married to the daughter of the the Rt Rev Geoffrey Paul. Jane Williams' father is the former Bishop of Bradford and a highly respected evangelical leader


Luke 6:39 He also told them this parable: "Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit?

115 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:36:39pm
116 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:37:09pm
117 J.S.  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:42:55pm

I heard on the "news" that the ArchiB gave a "correction" speech -- that was to "explain" his views on the adoption of Sharia Law (or the development of parallel court systems-- one for Infidels, the other for Muslims) -- and, apparently, the ArchiB received a standing ovation. So, guess all's been patched up and the Brits just love 'im.

118 Geepers  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:44:33pm

Hey ploome.

119 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:44:39pm
120 Whiterasta  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:46:03pm

The Archdhimmi's future boss, Prince Charles is alleged to be a secret revert to islam.

Rowan seems to be covering all his bases, here.

He wants to be the Archbishop AND the Grand Ayatollah.

121 madisonsfriend  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:47:49pm

re: #120 Whiterasta

The Archdhimmi's future boss, Prince Charles is alleged to be a secret revert to islam.

Rowan seems to be covering all his bases, here.

He wants to be the Archbishop AND the Grand Ayatollah.

I think Charles will never become King.

122 Joan Not of Arc  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:48:04pm

Hitchens would be glad to depose any religious leader.
I've never given any real thought to the Archbishop of Canterbury as I've always seen him as a weakling. It's no wonder he said what he did, however injurious and stupid. Any spokesman for a religious group worth his salt would defend God's laws and the just laws of man rather than set up a singular set of rules that are obviously discriminatory.
The Pope is nowhere near the Archbishop of Canterbury. This kerfuffle is as close as the Archbishop will get to getting a rise out of people, or even getting people to notice him. The Pope is noticed- and heard- everywhere he goes. Just ask the nutcases who set fires and killed nuns over some misconstrued words of an ancient emperor.

123 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:48:34pm

re: #111 mama winger

Interesting.

124 Whiterasta  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:48:36pm

re: #121 madisonsfriend

I sure hope you are right.

125 Zimriel  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:49:09pm

There is no anti-Semitism in this article. Hitchens had to bring up Beth Din because it was in the archbishop's speech. It also gave him the opportunity to cite an Orwell book which had glanced at the topic. (Hitchens sees himself as this century's Orwell, which is about right.)

Hitchens implies that most Jews in Britain either don't bother with Beth Din, or else treat it as an arbitration mechanism subservient to British law on British soil. (Which is also about right.)

126 Pvt Bin Jammin  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:51:48pm

re: #117 J.S.

I heard on the "news" that the ArchiB gave a "correction" speech -- that was to "explain" his views on the adoption of Sharia Law (or the development of parallel court systems-- one for Infidels, the other for Muslims) -- and, apparently, the ArchiB received a standing ovation. So, guess all's been patched up and the Brits just love 'im.

I think I'm going to be sick.

127 Sifty  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:53:09pm

re: #105 akak

Russian bomber aircraft approached a US Aircraft carrier in the Pacific on Saturday and were intercepted by American fighter jets, a US Defense official said on Monday.

If Boris the Blade gets too froggy and hits a carrier, the Archbishop of Canterbury's senile dementia will be the farthest thing from our minds.

128 J.S.  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 4:57:44pm

re: #125 Zimriel

You're being far, far too kind. One of the "facts" which Hitchens overlooks (I'm assuming it's deliberate) is that Muslims wish to have British courts enforcing Sharia law -- that is, the British courts become the "executors" of Sharia law. This does not occur in any Beth Din -- nor do Orthodox Jews demand such. Again, it's just standard operating procedure for Htichens -- that is to always defame Judaism, Orthodox Jews, etc. (See the recent JPost article by R. S. Boteach? -- He had to dispel the lies spread by Hitchens).

129 Ojoe  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 5:06:58pm

re: #126 Pvt Bin Jammin

Apparently the Bishop will not be master in his own house.

Elizabeth Tudor would have made him shorter by the head.

We live in sorry times.

130 Wishbone  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 5:15:33pm

re: #126 Pvt Bin Jammin

I can't see how you could have expected any less mate. If he fills the room with a rabble that are no less a bunch of chinless wonders than he is, of course they're going to applaud him.

If he'd have made his speech down at my local alehouse, they would have found him drowned in the dregs casket.

131 tiburon  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 5:19:03pm

re: #125 Zimriel

There is no anti-Semitism in this article. Hitchens had to bring up Beth Din because it was in the archbishop's speech. It also gave him the opportunity to cite an Orwell book which had glanced at the topic. (Hitchens sees himself as this century's Orwell, which is about right.)

Hitchens implies that most Jews in Britain either don't bother with Beth Din, or else treat it as an arbitration mechanism subservient to British law on British soil. (Which is also about right.)


well, I suppose that's because Jews aren't known for being insane (exception-to-rule being our contemporary government in Israel, 'natch)
Beth Din rulings are complicated, locality dependant (and hence judgements may not be consistent, jurisdiction to jurisdiction, a substitute (?poor term?) during the Exile for the Sanhedrin (The REAL Jewish High Court, sitting 70 judges), whose place is in Israel, not in the Nations' Lands. Those Nations have their own responsibilities and we have enough.
Generally, you're right - arbitration - given both parties submit to the rulings of course - and if we're not talking about edicts/laws that contradict basic Jewish Law (of the 'you Must eat pork' variety), Jews follow the Common Law where they live.
Basic survival skills, given being 0.03% of the world's population, one could say. Here's something sweet'n'new for Jews, Zero Point Three Percent (from Aish - 60 second vid).

132 tiburon  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 5:20:19pm

re: #128 J.S.

re: #125 Zimriel

You're being far, far too kind. One of the "facts" which Hitchens overlooks (I'm assuming it's deliberate) is that Muslims wish to have British courts enforcing Sharia law -- that is, the British courts become the "executors" of Sharia law. This does not occur in any Beth Din -- nor do Orthodox Jews demand such. Again, it's just standard operating procedure for Htichens -- that is to always defame Judaism, Orthodox Jews, etc. (See the recent JPost article by R. S. Boteach? -- He had to dispel the lies spread by Hitchens).

Really? I don't follow Hitchen's much, thanks for the tip I'll explore further.

133 Brett_McS  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 5:20:40pm

Bravo, Mr Hitchens!

134 Jimmah  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 5:22:32pm

re: #125 Zimriel

There is no anti-Semitism in this article. Hitchens had to bring up Beth Din because it was in the archbishop's speech. It also gave him the opportunity to cite an Orwell book which had glanced at the topic. (Hitchens sees himself as this century's Orwell, which is about right.)

Hitchens implies that most Jews in Britain either don't bother with Beth Din, or else treat it as an arbitration mechanism subservient to British law on British soil. (Which is also about right.)

Yep. Here are his words.

You might think that such relics of the medieval ghetto, and of the rabbinical control that was part of ghetto life, had more or less disappeared in England in the 21st century. And you would largely be right. There exists a "Beth Din," or religious court, in the prosperous North London suburb of Finchley to which the ultra-Orthodox submit some of their more arcane disputes. (This little world is very amusingly described by Naomi Alderman in her lovely novel Disobedience.) But to speak in general, Jews in Britain consider themselves, and are considered, to be answerable to the same laws as everybody else.

135 tiburon  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 5:33:22pm

re: #134 Jimmah
Ah. I should have read the article in full, because to me ('sorry' to say), this quote

to which the ultra-Orthodox submit some of their more arcane disputes. (This little world is very amusingly described by Naomi Alderman in her lovely novel Disobedience)

witnesses Hitchens as being, yes, "a little bit pregnant".

Ah well. Lots of smart folk around who can't shake the disdain for the 0.3% who've delivered, well....shall we say 50% (more?) of what we call Civilization and Progress to the World - all while being slaughtered by those who start out, finding it all an "amusing little world".
If, (when) I find confirmation of this spin in Hitchens other writings, he'll move into the 'berk' column in my book. He oughta 'part his cheeks and take a peek' at the codus of tort law, that in sum is an order of magnitude greater than all the legal systems in the world, combined - before making his supercilious pronouncements.

136 J.S.  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 5:34:19pm

re: #132 tiburon

Here's a link to Boteach's article (only the abstract of the article, I believe is now available)...."Saving non-Jews on Shabbat" (published Feb 5, 2008) [Link: pqasb.pqarchiver.com...] (Boteach writes: "it would seem incredible that anyone would believe such nonsense.[a blood libel] Yet, the latest to repeat this libel is the gifted writer [Christopher Hitchens]."

137 tiburon  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 5:38:21pm

re: #136 J.S.

re: #132 tiburon

Here's a link to Boteach's article (only the abstract of the article, I believe is now available)...."Saving non-Jews on Shabbat" (published Feb 5, 2008) [Link: pqasb.pqarchiver.com...] (Boteach writes: "it would seem incredible that anyone would believe such nonsense.[a blood libel] Yet, the latest to repeat this libel is the gifted writer [Christopher Hitchens]."

Many thanx J.S. , you've saved me a search...
First though, time for Nachos! Didja check the Aish vid (#131)? That was nice to wake up to in my inbox this AM....

138 J.S.  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 5:38:26pm

re: #135 tiburon

Hitchens in his book "God is not Great" repeats the lies and blood libels of that notorious antisemite, Shahak -- Hitchens uses Shahak as his source on Orthodox Jewry...(I figure Hitchens is too smart not to realize whom it is he's quoting from -- it's no "accident").

139 Joel  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 5:41:00pm

It is pretty obvious that unlike Christopher Hitchens, Dr. Rowan Williams the effeminate Archbishop of Canterbury, has a feeble intellect.

140 Joel  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 5:43:00pm

re: #138 J.S.

Hitchens (even though I praised his intellect in my above post) also wrote an absurd article condemning Hannukah (which is as benign and cute a holiday as you will ever come across). Despite his shortcomings though he is a valuable ally in the war against Islamofascism.

141 tiburon  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 5:54:16pm

re: #138 J.S.
Ya....I read the Abstract in the JPost archives you linked. I'll have to dig out the full text....not that I'm diehard fan of R. Boteach, this does seem egregious on Hitchens part. Normative Judaism is, goes without saying, a pretty fundamental challenge to Hitchens worldview, but one would expect more rigour from him, albeit he's spot on regards the wider cultural issue with Islam.
But without reading the full article of Boteach, couldn't help but notice that once again, the Baruch Goldstein episode rears it's ugly head. I for one will take a lot more convincing before I'll accept that a physician who spent his career caring equally for Jews and non-Jews in Israel, would suddenly 'snap' and machinegun Arabs at the Machpela.

There's tight analysis available online (I apologize but nachos are waiting, plus this would require a spinoff, plus it's been tried before here on LGF and can't resolve (yet) so I won't dig for links) as to what happened that day, and from what I've gathered the source of that episode was the same folk who sent the blackshirts to shatter the skulls of teenage girls and boys at Amona (so well timed for the abandonment of Hebron, not quite yet achieved, thanks G-d)

142 Rotorhead 67/68  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 5:58:44pm

Looked at 140+ comments...didn't see the one from Shakespeare that I expected to see right away, had to do with the same archbishop of Canterbury... "will no one rid me of this priest?"
Just sayin...

143 J.S.  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 6:08:54pm

btw (sorry if some find this repetitious) but I think it bears repeating. About the Beth Din (Jewish courts) as Melanie Phillips has written in her blog at the Spectator -- there is no reason (when discussing Sharia law courts or adoption of aspects of Sharia law in Britain) to bring in "the Jews." No reason. And, why not? It's because as Melanie Phillips writes:

...the statement [the Archbishop's attempted "clarification"] actually repeated the significant error Dr Williams made about Jewish law and the relationship between British Jews and the state:

At the end of the lecture the Archbishop referred to a suggestion by a Jewish jurist that there might be room for 'overlapping jurisdictions' in which ‘individuals might choose in certain limited areas whether to seek justice under one system or another’. This is what currently happens both within the Jewish arrangements and increasingly in current alternative dispute resolution and mediation practice.

This is completely untrue. As I wrote in my post below [see Melanie Phillips other post], there are no ‘overlapping jurisdictions’ between English and Jewish law, and Jewish law is not a ‘supplementary jurisdiction’ in the UK. A jurisdiction is a body of legal authority which has binding force upon those to whom it is applied. Jewish religious law in the UK has no legal authority over British Jews and no such binding force. Jews most certainly do not choose ‘whether to seek justice in one system or another’ except where their participation in Beth Din religious tribunals is entirely voluntary on the part of all concerned, such as in the informal arbitration of disputes. For the enforcement of justice, they must seek remedies from English law, just as they must be married or divorced under English law — Jewish marriage and divorce rituals having no official standing — for such status to be recognised by the state. It is a Jewish religious requirement for Jews to live under the law of the land in which they reside. It is simply astounding that Lambeth Palace continues to perpetuate a false impression about this. Do they really know nothing about Judaism? Why do they insist upon dragging the Jews into this?

144 Zimriel  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 6:11:46pm

142 Rotorhead... might you be referring to his play "Henry II"? The villain of "Duke Nukem Forever" quotes from it at length, I understand...

145 Joel  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 6:11:50pm

re: #142 Rotorhead 67/68

Looked at 140+ comments...didn't see the one from Shakespeare that I expected to see right away, had to do with the same archbishop of Canterbury... "will no one rid me of this priest?"
Just sayin...

That quote was not from Shakespeare. It was what Henry II of England actually said. There was no Shakespeare play concerning Thomas Becket. I think T.S. Eliot wrote one called "Murder in the Cathedral."

146 Joel  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 6:12:55pm

re: #144 Zimriel

142 Rotorhead... might you be referring to his play "Henry II"? The villain of "Duke Nukem Forever" quotes from it at length, I understand...

There was no Shakespeare play called Henry II. There was Henry IV parts 1 and 2, and Henry V, anbd Henry VIII parts 1, 2, and 3.

147 Joel  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 6:15:42pm

Oops, I meant Henry VI parts 1, 2 and 3 and also Henry VIII. I never cared for Shakepeare's history plays - a bunch of Tudor propaganda.

148 Jimmah  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 6:21:39pm

re: #135 tiburon

...an "amusing little world".

Wrong. Hitchens actually wrote:

This little world is very amusingly described

Amazing the percieved slights you can manufacture just by being a little innacurate, when you want to.

The Jews I know in real life are quite amused by that 'little world' as well sometimes. I seem to remember a lot of Jewish people in the entertainment industry being amused by some of the more arcane aspects of orthodox Jews too. Maybe they're all a bunch of anti-semitic bastards. Or maybe you are just ultra sensitive and need to develop a bit more of a sense of humour about these things.

149 Mezzetino  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 6:22:19pm

Why can't they do a Prince-and-the-Pauper style switcheroo and give us Rowan Atkinson as Archbishop of Canterbury? He'd make better sense.

150 Naso Tang  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 6:22:34pm

re: #80 J.S.

re: #69 rcris5

Frankly, I figure all three -- that's Leftist Anglicans, Hitchens, and radical islamists -- all atheists, all antisemites, all hate-mongers. I have to laugh -- there's little by way of "differences." They've got far more in common than what might separate them.

Funny, browsing through all 145 of these comments, the only really obvious hate monger here goes by the label J.S.

I wonder what religion you learn from?

151 Zimriel  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 6:23:55pm

Joel, you are misguided. In addition to DNFe, Shakespeare's Henry II is a well known influence on many works of Western art. Even in far off Finland, Sibelius devoted a major movement in one of his last symphonies to that pivotal scene.

152 Rotorhead 67/68  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 6:25:16pm

My Bad...I stand corrected. I attributed to the Bard what was actual history, only lizards are nimble enough to catch the mistake, and I wouldn't expect anything less. Cheers!

153 pittboy  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 6:25:26pm

The Archbishop can comment on sharia law the day after he opens a church in Mecca.

154 mikalm  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 6:29:37pm

re: #83 mama winger

Can you say, "upper-class twit"?

155 sarah  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 6:30:57pm

he's saying what I'm saying!

156 AllysonRT  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 6:49:34pm

Shariah law is alive and well at your local CITIBANK,. HSBC, Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Deutsche Bank, learn all about it.

check out this amazing blog,lots of info

http:shariahfinancewatch.wordpress.com

157 toasty  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 7:01:41pm

re: #143 J.S.

You are absolutely right to repeat the quotes from Melanie Philips here.

This Hitchens article is misleading. Jews are subject to the same exact laws as everyone else in Britain. Hitchens really ought to know that...

158 Joel  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 7:03:43pm

re: #151 Zimriel

Joel, you are misguided. In addition to DNFe, Shakespeare's Henry II is a well known influence on many works of Western art. Even in far off Finland, Sibelius devoted a major movement in one of his last symphonies to that pivotal scene.

You can google Shakespeare and you will find that he wrote no play called Henry II. Complete list of Shakespeare's plays.
Please find "Henry II" on that list. There is a Shakespeare play called Richard II but that King was 200 years after King Henry II ruled.

159 Ornery Ballsack  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 7:10:07pm

Hitchens has his flaws, but hey, he did uncork this gem:
"The enemies of intolerance cannot be tolerant, or neutral, without inviting their own suicide. And the advocates and apologists of bigotry and censorship and suicide-assassination cannot be permitted to take shelter any longer under the umbrella of a pluralism that they openly seek to destroy."
Lovely.

160 Zimriel  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 7:15:55pm

Okay, Joel, you skeptic: I refer you to Wikipedia. Samuel Dodgson (better known as Lewis Carroll) records a showing of Shakespeare's Henry II in his diary. He would have been in his late 20s at the time.

161 Joel  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 7:19:24pm

re: #160 Zimriel

There is no play written by William Shakespeare called "Henry II" - wishing it were so does not make it so. If he did write one it is lost. Give it up already.

One more time for you. The collected works of the Bard.

162 Joel  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 7:20:46pm

re: #160 Zimriel

Okay, Joel, you skeptic: I refer you to Wikipedia. Samuel Dodgson (better known as Lewis Carroll) records a showing of Shakespeare's Henry II in his diary. He would have been in his late 20s at the time.

He might have meant Henry IV, Henry V, Henry VI or Henry VIII. By the way wikipedia is often full of inaccuracies.

163 Toasty  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 7:22:24pm

This Archbishop is simply an idiot, of a kind not atypical in Britain today.

He is part of the wave of appeasement in the guise of "multiculturalism" that has swept Britain.

Most of the time he mumbles and waffles and when for once he speaks clearly he shows himself for the dhimmi and coward that he is... I'm not actually surprised. Under multiculturalism doing whatever the Hell Muslims want is considered enlightened thought.

A decent article by Hitchens for the most part (the exception being what he said about differences in law for British Jews - outrageous and false), but really, the Archbishop's idiotic comments are an easy target for anyone with a bit of sense. Melanie Philips did a much better job on this.

164 Zimriel  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 7:25:31pm

Whoever said "April is the cruelest month" must have had someone like Joel in mind...

165 Zimriel  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 7:27:45pm

When Duke Nukem Forever comes out, with its soundtrack from Sibelius's 8th and a manual with the missing pieces of Carroll's diary, I'll be sure to share my review with the lizards :^)

166 USBeast  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 7:29:09pm

Pat Condell pretty much sorts out the ArchDhimmi.

I don't always agree with Condell but when he draws his sword he does draw blood.

167 Joel  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 7:36:32pm

re: #164 Zimriel

Whoever said "April is the cruelest month" must have had someone like Joel in mind...

Very funny. I am sorry but I have an interest in historical accuracy. Arguing with you over an established fact is like talking with my Aunt Sylvia. Don't let facts get in the way of a good debate right? Two plays regarding "that meddlesome priest" Thomas Becket and Henry II of England.

Jean Anouilh's "Becket, or the Honor of God " and null. T

Please supply proof that Shakespeare wrote a play called "Henry II". YOu can just go on the web and find thousands of Shakespeare sites.

168 Joel  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 7:37:50pm

Oops the other play is "Murder in the Cathedral" by T. S Elliot

Facts are stubborn things.

169 Zimriel  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 7:43:34pm

Joel, silly person, I knew all along there was no Henry II by Shakespeare. Just like there is no Duke Nukem Forever, no Sibelius's 8th, no diaries of Lewis Carroll from ages 25-30.

I hold the line at the Easter Bunny, though. Something has to lay those scrumptious creme eggs....

170 Timbre  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 7:46:20pm

The mammal of Canterbury salutes those who hate mammals...except for camels.

171 USBeast  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 7:50:29pm

re: #168 Joel

Oops the other play is "Murder in the Cathedral" by T. S Elliot

Facts are stubborn things.

Yes, they are. And the fact is it's T.S Eliot.

"In a perfect universe T.S Eliot spelled backwards would be "Toilets", but this is not a perfect universe." Eric Idle "The Road To Mars"

172 USBeast  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 8:08:08pm

re: #171 USBeast

I must strenuously object to this site's inability to correctly punctuate the posts of those who click on the "post this comment" button without proofreading their post.

This sort of thing makes it abundantly clear that this site is hostile to the Punctuationally Challenged.

For shame.

173 Lynn B.  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 8:25:37pm

re: #128 J.S.

re: #125 Zimriel

You're being far, far too kind. One of the "facts" which Hitchens overlooks (I'm assuming it's deliberate) is that Muslims wish to have British courts enforcing Sharia law -- that is, the British courts become the "executors" of Sharia law. This does not occur in any Beth Din -- nor do Orthodox Jews demand such. Again, it's just standard operating procedure for Htichens -- that is to always defame Judaism, Orthodox Jews, etc. (See the recent JPost article by R. S. Boteach? -- He had to dispel the lies spread by Hitchens).

J.S. and Tiburon are, unfortunately, all too correct about Hitchens and about the Beit Din. (And the JPost article to which J.S. refers -- "Christopher Hitchens and the racist Jewish court" -- can be found in its entirety here.)

The problem with Hitchens' attacks on religion (or at least his attacks on Judaism, which I know a bit more about than I do about most others) is that he considers himself so far superior to his readers that he feels no need to do his homework. Nevertheless, this is clearly a subject he knows little about, and so his critiques are usually burdened with factual and conceptual errors. Boteach responds to just a few of them in the article linked above. I read Hitchens' miserable screed ("God is Not Great") from cover to cover, expecting to be impressed. It's extremely well- and cleverly-written garbage. Fortunately, I didn't pay for it (I took it out of the library).

It's a pure pleasure to watch him debating the likes of George Galloway, but his insinuation at the beginning of this article that the private submission of Jewish disputes to a Beit Din bears any resemblance to the call for instituting sharia (or Halacha, for that matter) as part of the law of Britain just proves his ignorance and his bias. If he was simply following the dishonorable Archbishop in doing so, all the worse. Feh!

And Jimmah (#148): The Jews you know may be amused (I would venture to guess that embarassed may be closer) by the practices of their Orthodox bretheren but that doesn't make it any less antisemitic to ridicule the traditions that have sustained our people throughout 2000 years of Diaspora.

174 Lynn B.  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 8:33:10pm

re: #140 Joel

re: #138 J.S.

Hitchens (even though I praised his intellect in my above post) also wrote an absurd article condemning Hannukah (which is as benign and cute a holiday as you will ever come across). Despite his shortcomings though he is a valuable ally in the war against Islamofascism.

Joel, the article is just an except from the same book of his, the title of which is so absurd that, although I don't exactly qualify as a true believer, I won't repeat again on this thread.

But you are correct about his value as an ally in the war against Islamofacism, and a welcome one because he is neither a fascist nor at heart an antisemite, though he's prone to idiotically repeating antisemitic slurs just because he perceives them as being anti-religious.

175 Naso Tang  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 9:08:08pm

re: #157 toasty

re: #143 J.S.

You are absolutely right to repeat the quotes from Melanie Philips here.

This Hitchens article is misleading. Jews are subject to the same exact laws as everyone else in Britain. Hitchens really ought to know that...

Did you read the article? It's linked right here. Hitchens says "But to speak in general, Jews in Britain consider themselves, and are considered, to be answerable to the same laws as everybody else."

176 Macker  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 9:09:17pm

I'd say the Archbishop of Canterbury hasn't just embraced Shari'a...he's taken it up the ass!

177 tiburon  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 10:23:10pm

re: #148 Jimmah

re: #148 Jimmah

re: #135 tiburon


...an "amusing little world".

Wrong. Hitchens actually wrote:

This little world is very amusingly described

Amazing the percieved slights you can manufacture just by being a little innacurate, when you want to.

The Jews I know in real life are quite amused by that 'little world' as well sometimes. I seem to remember a lot of Jewish people in the entertainment industry being amused by some of the more arcane aspects of orthodox Jews too. Maybe they're all a bunch of anti-semitic bastards. Or maybe you are just ultra sensitive and need to develop a bit more of a sense of humour about these things.

Ummm? No Jimmah, I think you are missing the point here. (Sorry so long the response, the Nachos were good, and I ended up numbing out to Riley. {NB: - I see the Google Map thing (spinned off above) 'contributors' labeling about mythical uprooted villages og so videre has made the ticker tape. Good.})
Y'see, Jewish self-deprecating humour is another long standing survival tactic well developed in normative Judaic circles.
But not to tiptoe around the issue, with but a slight change of nuance in your statement, I'd have to concur: -

The Jews I know, very distant from normative Jewish practice, in real life are quite amused by that 'little world' as well sometimes. I seem to remember a lot of largely assimilated non-practicing Jewish people in the entertainment industry being amused by some of the more arcane aspects of orthodox Jews too. Maybe they're all a bunch of anti-semitic self-hating bastards berks.


Y'see, when one mocks something of which one patently has little grasp (and I'm NOT refering to you, sir!, but rather 'academics' of a certain bent), one reveals a fixation that deserves review - not automatic condemnation, but definitely review. Because of that 0.3% of the world's population, a significantly smaller percentage are VISIBLE Jews, and mocking them, out of clear ignorance of their lives, concerns and practices, carries the same cautions as does mocking ANY visible minority. That is - check the motivations of the mockers as rigourously as one examines what's postulated. Right? I think you follow me.

I think the central issue is as J.S. has described in post #143

there is no reason (when discussing Sharia law courts or adoption of aspects of Sharia law in Britain) to bring in "the Jews." No reason.

- Why the hell are JEWS and their Beit Din's even IN this debate!?
re: #159 Ornery Ballsack Yes, and it's for this quote and similar that Hitchens, for whatever his blindspots, is a valuable contributor to the debate, as I've said above, 'spot-on'.

178 tiburon  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 10:46:37pm

BTW, I'm very impressed by the civility of this discussion! I remember in the day, 'lo these many years ago, when debate like this would have had armed-to-the-teeth lizards at each other's throats....
It really is nice to visit here now, the caves under Denver International.

re: #173 Lynn B.

Thanks for stepping in Lynn...both for my (and J.S.'s) defence, and as we needed a heavyweight to referee. I really know little about Hitchens, but 'generally'-speaking enjoy his debates and articles. He's well within my bounds of 'tolerance', prepared for his candid dislike of 'religion' in general {Judaism not a 'religion', mark you, but a Way of Life as you well know}; or as per your pithy comment

...though he's prone to idiotically repeating antisemitic slurs just because he perceives them as being anti-religious.

On specifics he can and will be questioned, and may yet 'repent' publicly.

If Wise.

These folk, whom I've found recently via Tamar Yona on A7, might serve a sufficiently erudite and veritudinous starting point for his learning curve. Some serious learning proceeding there, it appears.

re: #172 USBeast heh. I'll second that sentiment from bitter experience. But our dear T.S. Elliot? Now THERE'S an anti-semite! rat's feet, broken glass and all.

179 tiburon  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 11:10:23pm

re: #175 Naso Tang

Ummm, perhaps you missed this Naso Tang, in the J.S. post to which you're objecting? Quoting Melanie Phillips

It is a Jewish religious requirement for Jews to live under the law of the land in which they reside


ALL Jews, Naso - not "To speak in general..." as Hitchens disingenously posits, directly implying that most 'good jews' are ok, etc..... We're not talking of criminals here.
This is not a non-existent issue for Hitchens, and while I like Pat Condell rants (and thanks to USBeast for that link post #166), [who is vocal on Jews as well, not fixated though, just staunch atheist] as much as the next guy, Hitchens isn't a YouTube comedian.

180 Mel Lono  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 11:28:22pm

re: #166 USBeast

Pat Condell pretty much sorts out the ArchDhimmi.

I don't always agree with Condell but when he draws his sword he does draw blood.

There may be hope for the Brits yet. I had to hear the whole thing. It's worth the time. God forbid we have the same argument here. This from an American Anglican not pleased with his church for the last 5 years.

181 profitsbeard  Mon, Feb 11, 2008 11:33:00pm

For anyone who hasn't read Hitchens book GOD IS NOT GREAT, now you can, for free.

Un-shallah.

182 Ledger1  Tue, Feb 12, 2008 3:23:48am

Have to agree with Hitchens on this one:

[The] principles ought to be just as intelligible and accessible to those who don't yet speak English, in just the same way as the great Lord Mansfield once ruled that, wherever someone might have been born, and whatever he had been through, he could not be subject to slavery once he had set foot on English soil. – Christopher Hitchens

To Hell With the Archbishop of Canterbury

183 Joel  Tue, Feb 12, 2008 5:15:52am

re: #174 Lynn B.

I think Hitchens has a problem with Judaism as he learned later in life that his mother actually was Jewish. He also was too chummy at one point with the fraud Edward Said. However in a debate nobody has a sharper mind and wit then Hitchens. I saw him make the panelists on Bill Maher's show look like total asses.

184 Joel  Tue, Feb 12, 2008 5:17:57am

re: #171 USBeast

re: #168 Joel

Oops the other play is "Murder in the Cathedral" by T. S Elliot

Facts are stubborn things.

Yes, they are. And the fact is it's T.S Eliot.

"In a perfect universe T.S Eliot spelled backwards would be "Toilets", but this is not a perfect universe." Eric Idle "The Road To Mars"

Considering that Eliot was an anti Semite, you can flush him and his plays, poems, etc. down the toilet.

185 Joel  Tue, Feb 12, 2008 5:18:50am

re: #169 Zimriel

Point well taken.

186 cygnus  Tue, Feb 12, 2008 8:45:29am

re: #72 pegcity

re: #55 mama winger

re: #53 DesertSage


It's just too damn hot, I've been sweating my ass off all day.


Oh cry me a river.

its -25 here send some heat our way

Just host a political convention. All that hot air would raise the temp to at least 60!

187 Just Another Four-letter Word  Tue, Feb 12, 2008 11:06:09am

re: #2 WrathofG-d

Who are we to judge?

Shouldn't these people have the choice to live under Sharia?

;)

If they had a choice (and by that I mean they weren't cowed into submission, but were able to exercise free will without fear of retribution), then they would definitely NOT choose Sharia Law. Especially the women!

But, we figgerd this out a looooooong time ago. 'Tis indeed a crime that 3+ billion people on Earth are under the thumb (knife?) of a bloodthirsty, mysoginistic, rock-worshipping cult.

JAFLW

188 Just Another Four-letter Word  Tue, Feb 12, 2008 11:17:37am

re: #63 DesertSage

re: #55 mama winger

re: #53 DesertSage

It's just too damn hot, I've been sweating my ass off all day.

Oh cry me a river.

People were just not meant to sweat in February!

Go to Diego Garcia and tell me that!

(Oh, wait - that's why I hated it there in "winter" - which was summertime there, not that winter/summer were different from each other...)

JAFLW

189 Just Another Four-letter Word  Tue, Feb 12, 2008 11:20:59am

re: #84 Lizard by the Bay

re: #68 ploome hineni

Damn, I wish I could plus that post more than once. Secularizing religion is why the churches stand empty.

Simply put, they are becoming churches that teach the religion of Man, not of God. Read your Bible.

JAFLW

190 Alibaba  Tue, Feb 12, 2008 12:17:20pm

re: #3 Ojoe

You might write to the Queen and ask her to dismiss her Bishop. I believe she could, after all one of her titles is "Defender of the Faith".


The Royal Family's official website with contact information.
Forget it - the Royal Family does not behave as if they were the Defenders of the Faith.

191 Alibaba  Tue, Feb 12, 2008 1:01:40pm

re: #24 Killgore Trout

I believe the Archbishop is an atheist! He believes in nothing.

192 buzzdroid  Tue, Feb 12, 2008 2:31:21pm

re: #27 Fenway_Nation

yeah. one has a backbone. the other doesnt.

193 Naso Tang  Tue, Feb 12, 2008 4:09:30pm

re: #179 tiburon

re: #175 Naso Tang

Ummm, perhaps you missed this Naso Tang, in the J.S. post to which you're objecting? Quoting Melanie Phillips

It is a Jewish religious requirement for Jews to live under the law of the land in which they reside


ALL Jews, Naso - not "To speak in general..." as Hitchens disingenously posits, directly implying that most 'good jews' are ok, etc..... We're not talking of criminals here.
This is not a non-existent issue for Hitchens, and while I like Pat Condell rants (and thanks to USBeast for that link post #166), [who is vocal on Jews as well, not fixated though, just staunch atheist] as much as the next guy, Hitchens isn't a YouTube comedian.

So the comment I quoted was not about the link OP? Seems misleading to me, and what is disingenuous about the words "in general"? Clearly many will likely attempt to settle issues within their customs without resort to common law. So? That's like my wife and me making up without calling 911.

YouTube comedian? Lost me.

194 J.S.  Tue, Feb 12, 2008 4:32:45pm

I don't think Hitchens is the sort of individual the West needs right now. What the West needs are rational, reasonable, intelligent individuals -- not lurid, emotive, (not to mention deceitful) ranters.

In fact, I think that part of the problem with the West is that we are entering into some new Dark Ages -- in which emotions, not reason, rule. It is almost like that of living in a preliterate culture. (there 's an excellent book -- an academic one -- called "Orality and Literacy" -- the authors analyze the differences to be found in oral cultures vs literate cultures -- in an oral culture, even the concept of "what is history" is altered..oral cultures are "fluid", much less committed to seeking "truth", events are transitory and constantly "in flux").

Back to Hitchens -- even in his remarks about Sharia law he begins with a fictional "story" -- one which comes from his imagination...It is a product of his imagination (as is much of his rantings). Followed by, of course, the "appeal to emotion" in his readers -- not an appeal to a reasoned argument (with evidence) -- but to the emotions -- it's the "abused Muslim woman". (BTW, if anyone wished to "do a number" on European "justice" or lack thereof, all that would need to be done is to take a similar tact -- write up a fictional story about an "abused European woman" facing the horrors of an all-male British court...blah, blah, blah. And then add some rhetorical flourishes so as to make the reader appreciably "outraged." Basically, this is called Tabloid writing. But this is where Hitchens excels -- "tugging at the heart strings", defaming his enemies, maligning the dead (and, yes, this does seem to be Hitchens' peculiar penchant -- he seemingly enjoys attacking the recently dead -- I suppose it's because the dead can't defend themselves -- yeah, that's Hitchens' "the courageous" -- Hitchens has written hate-filled screeds/diatribes against Mother Theresa, against Bob Hope, against Ronald Reagan, against Ariel Sharon, against Jerry Falwell -- the list is long. The hate-filled screeds about Mother Theresa (btw), imo reveal far, far more about the nature of Hitchens -- his "hang-ups" and demented psychological projections -- than they do anything about Mother Theresa. So much for "scholarship" or "research" or "integrity" or "honesty" -- won't find it in the bulk of what Hitchens writes. Anyway, enough though with discussing this liar and hate-monger and wind-bag. To Hell with Hitchens. He's not really worth anyone's time. (Daniel Pipes has also written about Hitchens, btw -- here).


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