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 RetweetKosovo Declares Independence

Sun, Feb 17, 2008 at 1:58:34 pm PST

I’m not sure whose side to root for in the ethnic Albanian, Kosovo-Serbia morass—there are killers on all sides—and today’s news from Kosovo leaves me with mixed feelings: Kosovo declares independence from Serbia.

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899 comments

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1 Syrah  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:00:20pm

And when the shit hits the fan, what will President Obama do?

2 least  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:00:54pm

I'm pretty sure there will be badness there, soon.

3 doriangrey  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:01:36pm

If it pisses Putin off, er pisses on Putin, it wont be a total waste...

4 doriangrey  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:02:15pm

re: #2 least

I'm pretty sure there will be badness there, soon.

There is already much badness there, Muslim infestation don't ya know...

5 pat  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:02:51pm

Let us see how fast they can turn into another Chechnya.

6 little boomer  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:03:40pm

I predict we'll be forced to start rooting for the Serbs.

7 stevieray  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:04:23pm

Why not? The peaceful people of Kosovo would never cause trouble for their neighbors... why, they're secular Muslims! What could possibly go wrong?!?!

///

8 wahabicorridor  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:05:58pm

Great. When the Kosovos and the Serbs start duking it out, we can sit back and wath the EU Rapid Reaction Force take care of it.

Oh. Wait.

9 ornery elephant  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:06:57pm

OT

Sorry to go off topic so quickly but this blew me away...

New Poll: Americans Rank Bill Clinton As 6th Best President In The Country's History!

10 debutaunt  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:08:12pm

re: #9 ornery elephant

OT

Sorry to go off topic so quickly but this blew me away...

New Poll: Americans Rank Bill Clinton As 6th Best President In The Country's History!

Philander-wise?

11 avideditorla.com[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:08:56pm
12 David IV of Georgia  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:11:03pm

So lies, terror and atrocities do pay off. I think this all came about because the Serbs weren't good at public relations and Madeleine Albright, who suffered through the Third Reich, bought the tale that a new reich was in the making. Now that they have a country, I think it will slide into the darkness no matter how much foreign aid is pumped into it.

13 annar  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:11:10pm

In about five years, sooner if the outside troops leave, Kosovo will be a full fledged Islamic republic. The caliphate is ever edging westward and there are no Charles Martel's to stop it.

14 DJM  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:12:12pm

Just think, with Kosovo independence is a new radical Islamic state to deal with in the future.

Allahu achbar.

Remember the Fort Dix six? They were ethnic Albanians we "rescued".

15 Sorge  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:12:41pm

Charles, root against the Muslims. The Serbians, however bad, don't yearn for global domination.

Moral purity is never possible; we should let ourselves be paralized by its absence.

16 ParanoidPyro  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:13:51pm

I'm personally for the move for this reason: A true Muslim country in Europe now gives the strong (read: Danish) leaders a place to tell their pissed off Muslim residents to go that is still in Europe. If nothing else, there is no longer a way to cry that there is "no place for Muslims" in Europe.

And having their own country means that somebody can be held responsible if their citizens act up.

17 annar  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:14:19pm

Oops, it should have been "Charles Martels"

18 cookielady  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:15:04pm

re: #1 Syrah

And when the shit hits the fan, what will President Obama do?

Um... host a summit?

19 Jito463  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:15:09pm

re: #9 ornery elephant


I've been watching an interesting documentary from 2004 titled "Bill Clinton: His Life". Obviously, these people never saw it. It's up on Youtube in 12 parts titled "Bill & Hillary Clinton: Their Secret Life". Not sure all of it is believable or provable, but it does make one wonder.

20 Carl in Jerusalem  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:15:54pm

Here are some reasons you should be rooting against the newly-independent Kosovo.

21 avideditorla.com[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:15:55pm
22 avideditorla.com[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:17:58pm
23 cookielady  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:18:30pm

I think in today's world, we just have to root for whoever is not following the religion of death; we may have to do so regardless of the wickedness on the other side, because it's just like the politics here at home: you must choose the lesser of two evils.

It seems that there must be some great cataclysm for the worldwide downhill direction to be changed.

24 vapig  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:18:30pm

Well - whenever muslims have the numbers their next move is to seize the realstate - Now they'll probably rename it. Kosovstan (Ko-sov-stan)?

25 jayzee  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:18:49pm

It makes me nervous when a country's new flag looks so much like this old one.

Germany - armshield badge of the Albanian volunteers in the 21st Mountain Division ("Waffen Gebirgs Division") of the Waffen-SS, 'Skanderbeg', 1944. The second division of Muslim volunteers (after the 13th Croatian "Handschar" and before the 23rd Croatian "Kama" Division), Skanderbeg was formed in Kosovo in the summer of 1944 and number 6,500 volunteers by September.

26 EC Marm  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:18:54pm

Kosovo - wasn't that a song by the Beach Boys?
&#9834 Bosnia, Herzegovina (Oo I don't want to take you)
to Slovenia, Macedonia (Please don't make me take you)
To Croatia, Albania (I don't want to go to)
Serbia, on the Aegean Sea
There's a place called Kosovo,
that's where you don't want to go
to get away from it all
Bodies in the sand
People kicking you off your land
we'll be falling to the ground from a gun of a Serbian man
way down in Kosovo
Bosnia, Herzegovina (Oo I don't want to take you)
to Slovenia, Macedonia (Please don't make me take you)
To Croatia, Albania (I don't want to go)
Down to Kosovo

If we get there fast, then we will die real slow
That's where you don't want to go
Way down to Kosovo
(Seriavjo, where I don't want to go) &#9834
/ don't blame me, I googled it up

27 Jfundie  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:20:14pm

The picture that says it all:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

The Kosovar-Albanian Waffen SS division insignia is identical to the new Kosovo state flag.

These guys are evil. As evil as it gets.

28 MJ  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:20:25pm

Very bad news actually. Here's Julia Gorin who has been warning against this for a very long time:

"But to be a good sport on this special day: Happy Birthday, KKKosova!

Brought to you by the United States of America, the world’s last remaining Superchump. "

Read the whole entry:
[Link: www.juliagorin.com...]

29 solomonpanting  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:21:16pm

Ninety percent of Kosovo's 2 million people are ethnic Albanian — most of them secular Muslims — and they see no reason to stay joined to the rest of Christian Orthodox Serbia.

Underscoring fears of renewed unrest, an explosion lightly damaged a U.N. building housing a courthouse and a jail in Kosovo's tense north, home to most of its roughly 100,000 minority Serbs. No one was injured. An unexploded grenade was found near a motel that houses EU officials.

Kosovo is still protected by 16,000 NATO-led peacekeepers, and the alliance boosted its patrols over the weekend in hopes of discouraging violence. International police, meanwhile, deployed to back up local forces in the tense north.


Hopefully, what with UN peacekeepers and a "secular" RoP, this doesn't develop into Palistein Light.

30 redc1c4  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:21:44pm

re: #1 Syrah

And when the shit hits the fan, what will President Obama do?

blame America...

/no sarc

31 MJ  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:23:36pm

"Albania, Saudi Arabia first to recognize Kosovo?
17 February 2008 | 17:28 | Source: B92, Beta, Tanjug
BRUSSELS, KOSOVSKA MITROVICA -- Beta says an analysis shows Kosovo's unilateral declaration will first be recognized by some Islamic countries.

The news agency has had insight into the document, put together "by some EU countries", that says the province's independence declaration, rejected by Serbia, will be recognized in "three waves".

Albania, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and some other Muslim countries will lead the way, the report says. .."
[Link: www.b92.net...]

32 JammieWearingFool  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:24:09pm

Palestinian shot dead in Beirut clash

A Palestinian man was shot dead during clashes between anti-Syrian Lebanese government supporters and Palestinians close to Hezbollah in Beirut on Sunday, security sources said.

The clash was the latest in a series of sectarian skirmishes over the past two weeks that has raised fears that Lebanon's deepening political crisis was pushing the country closer to civil strife.

The sources said fighting with sticks and stones had broken out between the two sides over political posters in the Sabra area of Beirut. Shots were fired and a Palestinian was wounded.

He later died in hospital.

33 Killian Bundy  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:24:23pm

How many time can we get away with poking our finger in Russia's eye? They do not like this and consider it illegal.

/I wouldn't be surprised if they intervene on the ground here

34 Jfundie  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:24:34pm

The connection: "Palestinian" Mufti Haj Amin Al Husseini, Hitler, Himler, Bosnians and Kosovars team up to enstablish Muslim SS divisions:

35 Syrah  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:25:45pm

re: #18 cookielady

re: #1 Syrah

And when the shit hits the fan, what will President Obama do?

Um... host a summit?

And the press would love him for it so long as he didn't actually stand up for or promote US interest in the region.

36 antishock8  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:26:23pm

Yet another case where Muslims emigrate and don't integrate. Are there any Christian or Buddhist enclaves within Muslim countries declaring independence that I don't know of? Oh. That's right. That doesn't happen. Why? Because they're all wiped out the moment they stand up for themselves. Dhimmitude express! All aboard!

37 cookielady  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:26:24pm

re: #35 Syrah

So true!

And so very sad.

Grrr...

38 EC Marm  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:27:18pm

re: #33 Killian Bundy

How many time can we get away with poking our finger in Russia's eye? They do not like this and consider it illegal.


I never thought I would agree with the Russians on anything, but I think they're quite knowledgeable and concerned about the islamic threat creeping around their border.

39 PeaceBeUponHim  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:27:39pm

Isn't this whole Serbian "ethnic cleansing" thing a bit of malarky? If anyone can provide some decent links showing it's a myth, I'd be grateful.

40 SlartyBartfast  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:27:58pm
...lawmakers pronounced the territory the Republic of Kosovo and pledged to make it a "democratic, multiethnic state."
[...]
Ninety percent of Kosovo's 2 million people are ethnic Albanian — most of them secular Muslims — and they see no reason to stay joined to the rest of Christian Orthodox Serbia.

Methinks this will be an interesting test: the chance of a democracy emerging in Kosovo is directly proportional to the degree of "secularism" in the Muslim population. As we've seen time and again, Islam and democracy appear to be mutually exclusive.

I wouldn't want to be a resident of the Balkans while the world waits to find out what's going to happen.

41 Whiterasta  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:28:06pm

The whole former Yugoslavia has degenerated into a mess.

There are no easy answers.

I wonder if this could be the precursor of WW4, or a continuation of WW3.

42 Dianna  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:28:45pm

re: #33 Killian Bundy

That will be profoundly interesting, considering they'd have to cross quite a few borders to get there.

43 ornery elephant  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:29:11pm

re: #23 cookielady

I think in today's world, we just have to root for whoever is not following the religion of death; we may have to do so regardless of the wickedness on the other side, because it's just like the politics here at home: you must choose the lesser of two evils.

It seems that there must be some great cataclysm for the worldwide downhill direction to be changed.

Well said cookielady!

And I would add that in those final days when the ultimate wars are waged and the forces of evil are filling the airs with the dust of their billion feet, the forces of good will stand shoulder to shoulder and no one will be checking i.d. cards as long as their gun barrel or sword takes off the head of the evil ones and no one will be wearing their political party's affiliation on their arm sleeve but they will all be wearing the badge of honor - the blood spray of the followers of a madman.

44 antishock8  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:29:57pm

Remember the SLC mall shooter? Yeah. Kosovar-Muslim Albanian "rescued" ='s 5 kaffirs dead.

Let's give them a state!

45 Dave the.....  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:30:48pm

Since we're on Europe...took a poll on the Afton Post (English web) from Norway. Story is on Norway's political parties. Reason number 156 why I could never live in Europe...the party that matches me the closest is Christian Democrats...at a 52% match. They have 8 parties, and I can barely get a 50% match? "Conservative" party is 45%. The so called "Center" party matches me at 18%.

If I lived in Norway, I would be considered some kind of crazy right winger.

Heh, one of poll questions is if the work day should be reduced t o6 hours. Heh, I could never be lazy enough to work that little.

[Link: www.aftenposten.no...]

46 cookielady  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:30:58pm

That is one thing that IS certain in this uncertain world--there will be blood before it's over.

47 Dianna  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:33:04pm

#33 Killian Bundy

Have a look at this map just for starters.

Russia would have to cross - at an absolute minimum - Ukraine and Romania, and probably Moldava as well.

That's not going to go over well.

48 cookielady  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:33:37pm

Oh, a caveat to my 'whoever isn't the bad guys...' I don't want any equally bad guys on our side, if you follow me.

49 Colonel Panik  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:33:52pm

re: #44 antishock8

Remember the SLC mall shooter? Yeah. Kosovar-Muslim Albanian "rescued" ='s 5 kaffirs dead.

Let's give them a state!

Actually, he was a Bosnian Muslim, slight difference.

50 Colonel Panik  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:34:52pm

re: #47 Dianna

#33 Killian Bundy

Have a look at this map just for starters.

Russia would have to cross - at an absolute minimum - Ukraine and Romania, and probably Moldava as well.

That's not going to go over well.

Paratroops. The Serbs could invite them in. The Russians have large transport aircraft as well.

51 sparrowlake  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:35:30pm

re: #26 EC Marm

LOL - a pox on both their houses.

52 Killian Bundy  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:36:02pm

re: #42 Dianna

That will be profoundly interesting, considering they'd have to cross quite a few borders to get there.

Remember when they seized the Pristina airport from under our nose and Wesley Clark almost started WWIV?

/they already have peacekeeping troops there and airlift capability

53 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:36:59pm

Many people here seem to be unaware that neighboring Albania is a peaceful Muslim country and probably one of the most pro-America countries in Europe.

54 Student of Objectivism  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:37:14pm

I am with you on this ones Charles. I don't know anything about either side. The government that protects the most individual rights I will support, but both governments may be crappy.

55 Dianna  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:37:16pm

re: #50 Colonel Panik

And the Ukrainians, Romanians and whoever else is going to agree to this? I can't see it. The Serbs aren't going to ask them in, and if they do, even if Putin and Company think it's a brilliant idea, they are going to have to ask themselves if they can actually do it.

My suspicion is that they can't. Not via air.

56 redmonkey  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:38:12pm

It is going to open can of worms. A lot similar conflicts around Glob. What about Kurds, separated between 4 countries? Former USSR, Russia, even Europe(Corsica for example). And what if Kosovo Serbs(they are living in part of Kosovo on border with Serbia) would like to separate from Kosovo? What about right of Serb refugees from Kosovo?

57 akak  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:38:28pm
re: #33 Killian Bundy


How many time can we get away with poking our finger in Russia's eye?

Don't get them mad, they'll fly over a carrier and spit on us.

Speaking of that, if they are giving 6 months notice about those flights...how do they end up over a carrier?

58 Dianna  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:38:54pm

re: #52 Killian Bundy

Killian, the Russians didn't "sieze" Prstina. They were supposed to be coming in there, remember? It was their area of responsibility.

Wesley Clark damned near started a war over something he had no business interfering in.

Whether the policy was the right one or not...that's a different debate.

59 Dianna  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:39:55pm

re: #53 Killgore Trout

After Enver Hoxa, the Albanians are not fooled by promises of paradise.

60 Colonel Panik  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:41:43pm

re: #39 PeaceBeUponHim

Isn't this whole Serbian "ethnic cleansing" thing a bit of malarky? If anyone can provide some decent links showing it's a myth, I'd be grateful.

I would start with Julia Gorin's articles in Jewish World Review. She's a good source as she is not ethnically Serb herself, therefore cannot be accused of having an axe to grind.

The book "Media Cleansing" is another good resource.

Remember, the blogosphere was non-existant, or just barely existant at the time the Balkan wars occurred. The MSM was able to get away with a lot of crap they couldn't have 10 years later.

Any articles written by Canadian Major General Lewis MacKenzie, who saw first hand what reporters were writing about remotely.

61 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:42:22pm

re: #53 Killgore Trout

Many people here seem to be unaware that neighboring Albania is a peaceful Muslim country and probably one of the most pro-America countries in Europe.

I didn't know that, but must confess to having had a mental block against Albania for decades (from way back during the Cold War.)

62 fiveofnine  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:42:25pm

I am for the side that is not preordained to kill me, thus I am for the Serbs. When Clinton was bombing the Serbs, I told everyone that we were bombing the wrong side. I was right then and more so right, now.

As far as ethnic cleansing, check the UN data on the population make up of the area, back in 1980 and than again in 2000.
The area use to be equally divided between Christians and muslims in 1980.
The muslims used guerrilla techniques to drive out the Christians, burning farms and villages and killing off the Christians.
Since the muslims after the attacks blended back into their villages there were little the Serbs could do, except to counter attack by rounding up terrorist age muslims and executing them.

If this is ethnic cleansing well, the muslims did their fair share.

63 Dom  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:42:35pm

It's rather complex. On the one hand the KLA are/were notoriously pro-al Qaeda, and their gains have not been achieved without resort to some particularly vile warfare. On the other hand, Russia and Serbia are incomparable to Israel, and seriously brutal in their nationalisms. If anything the Albanians have more reason to identify with post-WWII Jews than with Palestinians. They are also, it goes without saying, extremely grateful to NATO. So I should hope that lasts, and that Islamism has no place in the new Kosovo. I'm with Charles on this, waiting to see, and generally I think we should do all we can to have them onside. NATO ought to have a great deal of sway in influencing this transition and encouraging a liberal ethos.

64 David IV of Georgia  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:42:57pm

With the exception of Albania, pretty much all their neighbors will be rooting for and trying to bring about their speedy demise.

Its not too hard to imagine "Kosovo" bringing US and Russia into conflict.

Does anyone know any actual proof of Serbian atrocities? Or did they come from the same source that claims 2 million dead civilians in Iraq and that Israeli missiles have blown up Lebanese ambulances?

The Serbian Army was largely communist trained, so I wouldn't put it past them to be crude and heavy-handed, but has anyone actually seen proof? Everything I've seen proves to be false.

65 Daisy  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:43:16pm

"I’m not sure whose side to root for in the ethnic Albanian, Kosovo-Serbia morass.."

Kind of like having to decide whether to root for the Crips or the Bloods.

66 debutaunt  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:43:23pm

re: #59 Dianna

re: #53 Killgore Trout

After Enver Hoxa, the Albanians are not fooled by promises of paradise.

The change thing probably would fail as well. OK, no paradise, but you're gonna love the new change deal.

67 Student of Objectivism  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:43:56pm

Serbia's constitution isn't horrible. What about Kosovo...

68 Dianna  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:44:02pm

re: #60 Colonel Panik

Ah, yes, MacKenzie! Wasn't he the fellow who lost his temper with the press - who kept asking him why he was merely reporting slaughters and forced evacuations - and snapped, "What would you like me to do? Stab them with a ball-point pen?"

69 Killian Bundy  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:44:52pm

re: #58 Dianna

Killian, the Russians didn't "sieze" Prstina. They were supposed to be coming in there, remember?

They seized the airport and wouldn't let us use it, remember? Once you have the airport . . .

Just who is going to stop them if they really want to intervene?

/and pray tell, as upset as Serbia is over this, why wouldn't they invite the Russians in if this escalates?

70 spidly  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:45:13pm

nobody expects the student of objectivism! dah dah daaah!

71 buddyg  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:45:32pm

Balkanizing the Balkans is like mashing mashed potatoes

72 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:45:36pm

re: #41 Whiterasta

The whole former Yugoslavia has degenerated into a mess.

There are no easy answers.

I wonder if this could be the precursor of WW4, or a continuation of WW3.


What about Slovenia? Weren't they doing fairly well for awhile?

73 Dianna  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:46:05pm

re: #64 David IV of Georgia

Look for yourself.

I don't believe you're going to find what you want to find, however.

74 RememberSekhmet?  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:46:24pm

I have a friend in the Army serving over there, last I heard. I hear from him every so often. Sent the kids a video last year (Order of the Phoenix in German).

Better stay available with my iChat on in case he checks in. Hope he's doing OK.

75 Carl in Jerusalem  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:46:25pm

re: #22 avideditorla.com

re: #20 Carl in Jerusalem

Here are some reasons you should be rooting against the newly-independent Kosovo.

wow karl great articles. You should submit them as related to the story for the spin off links. But at the same time do you support the ethnic cleansing attempt of the other side? Or do I have my history wrong?

No, I don't support any ethnic cleansing attempts.

76 Alas  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:46:49pm

A new Muslim-dominant state is never a good thing. When a balanced history of the Balkans gets written from some objective distance, the influence of radical Islamism and Saudi-funded and other itinerant Jihadis in the whole mess will be revealed. The Balkans were once a major Jihad destination for the "mujahhadin" from outside of the area. Their role in creating the situation has not been adequately explored by scholars or the media.

77 Carl in Jerusalem  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:47:25pm

re: #75 Carl in Jerusalem

re: #22 avideditorla.com

re: #20 Carl in Jerusalem

Here are some reasons you should be rooting against the newly-independent Kosovo.

wow karl great articles. You should submit them as related to the story for the spin off links. But at the same time do you support the ethnic cleansing attempt of the other side? Or do I have my history wrong?

No, I don't support any ethnic cleansing attempts.

P.S. If you go up in the spinoff links, you'll see that I posted video footage of Serbian protestors trying to burn down the US embassy in Belgrade this evening.

78 Dianna  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:48:25pm

I'm out. Damn, just when things were getting interesting.

Have a good afternoon.

79 MacGregor  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:48:29pm

Would BHO commit against the Russians as clinton did the Serbs? We would be acting as an agent for saudi. That would be the ultimate hijacking.

And didn't Milosovich die in prison laughing at us for being naive?

80 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:49:09pm

re: #72 Pvt Bin Jammin

Seems as I saw (a few years ago, not lately) that both Slovenia and Slovakia were doing well.

81 Carl in Jerusalem  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:49:34pm

re: #32 JammieWearingFool

Palestinian shot dead in Beirut clash

A Palestinian man was shot dead during clashes between anti-Syrian Lebanese government supporters and Palestinians close to Hezbollah in Beirut on Sunday, security sources said.The clash was the latest in a series of sectarian skirmishes over the past two weeks that has raised fears that Lebanon's deepening political crisis was pushing the country closer to civil strife.

The sources said fighting with sticks and stones had broken out between the two sides over political posters in the Sabra area of Beirut. Shots were fired and a Palestinian was wounded.

He later died in hospital.

Video of Sunni - Shia clashes in Beirut this weekend here.

82 shug  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:49:43pm
Russia called for an emergency session of the U.N. Security Council, which met later Sunday.

1. they met
2. They drafted a letter condeming Israel
3. Meeting adjourned.
4. Hookers , Cuban Cigars and martinis were enjoyed liberally

83 sparrowlake  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:50:34pm

re: #38 EC Marm

re: #33 Killian Bundy


How many time can we get away with poking our finger in Russia's eye? They do not like this and consider it illegal.

I never thought I would agree with the Russians on anything, but I think they're quite knowledgeable and concerned about the islamic threat creeping around their border.

IMO the Russians are out to restore the USSR and to bury the West. Of course they are concerned with islamic nationalist groups on their borders. I would not mind a bit if the Russians got dragged into a civil war in Kosovo.

84 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:51:12pm

re: #64 David IV of Georgia


You can believe whatever conspiracy theories you'd like. If a quick google doesn't turn up suitable evidence for you then you're probably hopeless.

85 TS  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:51:22pm

I don't have any mixed feelings, you support the side/s that Islamic terrorists were fighting against. Pretty fucking cut and dry to me. Just because the people fighting back against the Islamic beheaders used brutal means, well, I wish they wouldnt have but they are not like America or Israel or India etc...they are not powerful like us, they either use brutal means or they are wiped clean, like Muslims do to all other weak parties. So ef that, these are the same people who in 2004, I think it was 2004, burnt churches and monastaries and they are they kind of people that delight in killing priests and nuns and beheading people...now you tell me you have mixed feelings? DONT! This is bad news and soon Muslims will wipe out all Serbs, orthodox Christians, from their Jerusalem.
And while I dont know all about this conflict and I do realise there are several sides etc. but I know enough to make my above statement. And the Albanian muslims who are moderate? SO WHAT! Are they gonna stop the church burners and beheaders? Do any Muslims stop them? Or do they profit from their deeds? (And then find themselves in a hell of their own making!) You see them profit today, celebrating their 'independence', but what about tomorrow? They will have to pay the beheaders who helped them win...dont think they wont. (Or they will behead them!)

86 EC Marm  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:51:50pm

re: #53 Killgore Trout

Many people here seem to be unaware that neighboring Albania is a peaceful Muslim country and probably one of the most pro-America countries in Europe.


CIA Fact Sheet on Albania:

Muslim 70%, Albanian Orthodox 20%, Roman Catholic 10%
note: percentages are estimates; there are no available current statistics on religious affiliation; all mosques and churches were closed in 1967 and religious observances prohibited; in November 1990, Albania began allowing private religious practice
87 fiveofnine  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:52:15pm

excerpts from Julia Gorin's ariticle, August of 2004.


And check out this fun headline from Canada's National Post in March of 2002: U.S. supported al-Qaeda cells during Balkan Wars, Fought Serbian troops: "Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda terrorist network has been active in the Balkans for years, most recently helping Kosovo rebels battle for independence from Serbia with the financial and military backing of the United States and NATO...In the years immediately before the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999, the al-Qaeda militants moved into Kosovo...to help ethnic Albanian extremists of the KLA mount their terrorist campaign against Serb targets in the region."


In fact, if we're having trouble finding Osama bin Laden, perhaps it's because we haven't checked Bill Clinton's Kosovo, where he was before 9/11: Bin Laden in Kosovo (Agence France Presse, April 27, 2000): "Osama bin Laden...is in Kosovo, the official Yugoslav news agency Tanjug said...bin Laden 'has found a new refuge in the Balkans, precisely in Kosovo, the nest of European terrorism' ...[He] arrived from Albania after having formed a group of 500 Islamic fighters...to carry out 'terrorist acts' in Kosovo...[and] in the southern region of Serbia."


The picture gets even prettier: Hijackers connected to Albanian terrorist cell (Washington Times, Sept. 18, 2001): "U.S. intelligence officials are investigating ties between the terrorists who carried out airliner attacks and associates of Osama bin Laden based in Albania...KLA members have been trained at bin Laden training camps in Afghanistan."

88 macintush  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:53:06pm

Can't we just send savior Barak there right now, and let him start the negotiations? Maybe it won't take him longer than, say, a year or two to get things really rolling.

He can come back and pick up his campaign where he left off, when he gets back.

Oh, Bill and Hill should go along, too. We wouldn't want to give an unfair political advantage to anyone, right?

89 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:53:15pm

re: #80 pre-Boomer Marine brat
Same here. I haven't heard anything new either.

90 Colonel Panik  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:53:36pm

re: #68 Dianna

re: #60 Colonel Panik

Ah, yes, MacKenzie! Wasn't he the fellow who lost his temper with the press - who kept asking him why he was merely reporting slaughters and forced evacuations - and snapped, "What would you like me to do? Stab them with a ball-point pen?"

Probably. He got in hot water with the MSM for pointing out that, contrary to the MSM's reporting, the Bosnian Serb forces did not massacre women and children at Srebrenica. According to MacKenzie, they did execute captured Bosnian Muslim soldiers, but those same Bosnian muslim soldiers had been involved in atrocities against Bosnian Serbs in the Bihac pocket.

"Those of us who served as UN commanders in Bosnia realized the majority of the media reports were biased to say the least. Whenever we tried to set the record straight we were and continue to be accused of being, "Serbian agents." It's refreshing to see a journalist, not a general, dispel some of the myths that characterized the professional propaganda paid for by two sides in a three-sided civil war."
- Lewis MacKenzie, Major General (ret'd)
UNPROFOR Chief of Staff and
Commander Sector Sarajevo March to August 1992
Author of, Peacekeeper: The Road to Sarajevo, 1993

91 Student of Objectivism  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:53:53pm

hmm...is there something I am missing out on? Do we have proof that Kosovo intends to be an Islamic state?

So what if there are a bunch of Muslims living there. Can't do anything about that.

92 debutaunt  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:54:35pm

re: #88 macintush

Can't we just send savior Barak there right now, and let him start the negotiations? Maybe it won't take him longer than, say, a year or two to get things really rolling.

He can come back and pick up his campaign where he left off, when he gets back.

Oh, Bill and Hill should go along, too. We wouldn't want to give an unfair political advantage to anyone, right?

Excellent idea. Give the 'yammer' theory a good try.

93 Globular Cluster  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:56:19pm

They seem to be very pro-America.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Can't be all that bad. Very few cultures that don't have blood on their hands...

94 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:57:29pm

re: #86 EC Marm

George Bush Albania mania

PRESIDENT Bush got a hero’s welcome in the mainly-Muslim state of Albania yesterday, on the first visit there by a US leader.

Thousands of people ? many wearing top hats designed to look like the US flag ? cheered him in the capital Tirana.

Some even tried to grab him and hug him, leaving him with ruffled hair.

Buildings in the former Communist state were draped in US flags and a 21-gun salute was fired.

A set of commemorative stamps was issued and a street in front of the Parliament was renamed in Mr Bush’s honour.
...
Albania backs the US-led invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan and has sent several hundred of its own troops in support. It wants to join Nato and the EU.

They seem nice.

95 shug  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:57:49pm

OT
Woman dies after fall from UN building

UNITED NATIONS - A woman who worked for the United Nations died Sunday after falling from the 19th floor of the U.N.'s Secretariat Building, authorities said.

The official cause of death was to be determined by the medical examiner.

I'm going to go out on a limb here ( pardon the pun ) and say that the cause of death was the pavement

96 debutaunt  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:58:05pm

re: #93 Globular Cluster

They seem to be very pro-America.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Can't be all that bad. Very few cultures that don't have blood on their hands...

The red and black flag seems totally benign.

97 Colin Nelson  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:58:13pm

Rocks and hard places indeed.

Lewis MacKenzie does have a firm grip on this neck of the woods and I expect we'll see an article or two soon giving us his take.

On balance hold your noses tight and side with Serbia cause there is no such animal as a secular Muslin anything.

98 Colonel Panik  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:58:37pm

re: #80 pre-Boomer Marine brat

re: #72 Pvt Bin Jammin

Seems as I saw (a few years ago, not lately) that both Slovenia and Slovakia were doing well.

Slovenia is in the North of the former Yugoslavia and is predominantly Catholic. Borders with Austria. There was little fighting between the Slovenes and the other Balkan groups. They were the first part of FRY to secede and fought a brief battle with Yugoslav federal troops and then there was a negotiated settlement IIRC. There are few if any Muslims there.

Slovakia is the western half of the former Czechoslovak Republic and is not a part of the Balkans. They split peacefully after the "Velvet Revolution". Borders Poland and Hungary.

99 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:58:55pm

re: #91 Student of Objectivism

Do we have proof that Kosovo intends to be an Islamic state?


Not that I'm aware of. It's likely that they will remain a secular state.

100 Globular Cluster  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:59:39pm

re: #96 debutaunt

re: #93 Globular Cluster

They seem to be very pro-America.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Can't be all that bad. Very few cultures that don't have blood on their hands...

The red and black flag seems totally benign.

Very few flags seem totally benign.

101 debutaunt  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 2:59:53pm

re: #95 shug

OT
Woman dies after fall from UN building


UNITED NATIONS - A woman who worked for the United Nations died Sunday after falling from the 19th floor of the U.N.'s Secretariat Building, authorities said.

The official cause of death was to be determined by the medical examiner.


I'm going to go out on a limb here ( pardon the pun ) and say that the cause of death was the pavement

Cool! A medical examiner in our midst.

102 LSD  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:00:17pm

Sleaze charge: 'I took drugs, had homo sex with Obama'
Minnesota man takes his case to court, YouTube, $100,000 polygraph challenge

When his story was ignored by the news media, Larry Sinclair made his case last month in a YouTube video, which has now been viewed more than a quarter-million times. And when it was still ignored by the media, Sinclair filed a suit in Minnesota District Court, alleging threats and intimidation by Obama's staff.

Sinclair, who says he is willing to submit to a polygraph test to validate his claims, will now get his chance – thanks to a website offering $10,000 for the right to record it and $100,000 to Sinclair if he passes.

"My motivation for making this public is my desire for a presidential candidate to be honest," Sinclair told WND by telephone. "I didn't want the sex thing to come out. But I think it is important for the candidate to be honest about his drug use as late as 1999."

Sinclair, who lives in Duluth and describes himself as "gay," claims he "personally engaged in sexual activity and personally used illegal drugs in November 1999" with the man who is now the leading Democratic presidential candidate. He claims the activity took place in the back of Sinclair's limousine and occurred again, later, in his hotel. Sinclair also says he personally no longer uses drugs.

In his lawsuit, filed last week, he charges his civil rights have been violated by Obama and the Democratic Party. Named as defendants in the case are the presidential candidate, David Axelrod of AKP Message and Media in Chicago and the Democratic National Committee.

Sinclair charges Obama smoked crack cocaine in the limo while Sinclair snorted powdered cocaine provided by the legislator. He says the two met in an upscale Chicago lounge before leaving in Sinclair's limousine where the drug use and sex took place for the first time ...

103 Killian Bundy  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:00:18pm

Okay, there are apparently no Russian peacekeeping troops currently in Kosovo. They left in 2003.

At his first news conference since his appointment, Rogozin said the terms for Kosovo's independence offered to Serbia were "shameful and defective," and compared them to Treaty of Versailles restrictions imposed on Germany after its defeat in World War I.

The independence dispute has sparked speculation that Russia could send peacekeeping troops to Kosovo in a show of force. But Rogozin said, "I see no possibility of the return of our peacekeeping contingent to Kosovo. It's not necessary to do this."

Kosovo's ethnic Albanian leadership is likely to declare independence within weeks, a move Russia says cannot be accepted without the consent of Serbia, Russia's traditional ally. Putin said last week that Western acknowledgment would be "illegal and immoral."

"It's not the Serbs we are protecting, it's the rules of decent behavior and the architecture of international relations," Rogozin said. He likened recognition of Kosovo's independence to opening a "Pandora's box" that would trigger separatist movements in Europe.

/still, Russia has the capacity to get there in short order if they really want to

104 Killian Bundy  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:01:25pm

re: #91 Student of Objectivism

hmm...is there something I am missing out on? Do we have proof that Kosovo intends to be an Islamic state?

/other than the fact that the population is 90% Muslim?

105 Piltdown Man  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:01:51pm

I agree its tough to find a good guy in this but...

Right now, the Kosovars are waving American flags and love us more than the French, the British or any number of so called allies. The reasonable position to take, now that independence is a done deal, is to trust that we have a little budding friend in the Kosovars and to watch them like a hawk.

As for Serbia, they got themselves into all this starting in 1989 and set about the chain of events that led to this day. So its on them.

106 Student of Objectivism  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:01:55pm

re: #104 Killian Bundy

re: #91 Student of Objectivism

hmm...is there something I am missing out on? Do we have proof that Kosovo intends to be an Islamic state?

/other than the fact that the population is 90% Muslim?

So what? Are they threatening Americans?

107 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:02:10pm

re: #98 Colonel Panik
Thanks. My paternal grandparents were Slovenian. So glad to hear they are still mostly Catholic. I still would like to visit there some day.

108 Globular Cluster  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:03:09pm

Be sure to view all 15 pictures:

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

I will dissent and say that I am very hopeful about Kosovo independence. Maybe most are Muslim, but they don't seem so in the Saudi sort of way.

109 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:03:24pm

re: #94 Killgore Trout

Bush in Albania

Now THAT is fascinating!
Thanks!

BTW, *grin* what th' dickens are you doing read the SUN?! Have they been dumping more white feathers on the decks of French Navy ships or something?

110 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:04:27pm

re: #104 Killian Bundy

In fact it seems they are trying to escape religious orthodoxy and remain secular...

UN Security Council Meets on Kosovo

Kosovo's 2 million population is 90 percent ethnic Albanian, mainly secular Muslims, who do not want to be part of Serbia, a predominantly Christian Orthodox nation.
111 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:04:54pm

re: #98 Colonel Panik

Thanks. Proves my memory hasn't gone. (yet)

112 spidly  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:05:06pm

re: #82 shug

Russia called for an emergency session of the U.N. Security Council, which met later Sunday.

1. they met
2. They drafted a letter condeming Israel
3. Meeting adjourned.
4. Hookers , Cuban Cigars and martinis were enjoyed liberally

you forgot the dance around the parking ticket bonfire

113 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:05:09pm
114 stevieray  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:05:32pm

re: #59 Dianna

re: #53 Killgore Trout

After Enver Hoxa, the Albanians are not fooled by promises of paradise.

Albanian was made majority Muslim by one of the bloodiest, unrelenting examples of jihad and the Islamification of a population by the sword ever witnessed. Millions of Albanian Christians were slaughtered fighting the Ottomans: indeed, Europe's history would be very different if it weren't for the stubborn resistance by the Albanians.

As for the pro-American stance of Albania today... unfortunately, it is under assault by the usual suspects; that pro-Western outlook may change as the population rediscovers their "roots".

115 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:05:59pm

re: #109 pre-Boomer Marine brat

It just came up first on the google search for some reason. Other article mentioned that George is one of the most common baby names in Albania. They love him.

116 Colonel Panik  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:06:04pm

Julia Gorin reviews Chris Deliso's The Coming Balkan Caliphate in Jewish World Review.

From Caliphate, a reader begins to understand that Kosovo, which is already infecting surrounding areas, is run by systematic chaos, everyone alternating roles between gangster and hostage: Albanian leaders/gangsters threaten the Islamists should they target the internationals; al Qaeda threatens Albanians with cutting off their heroin supply if they touch the Islamists; and the internationals are threatened with the understanding that the well-armed Albanians have a virtual gun pointed at our NATO troops should we embark on any unwelcome law enforcement. One begins to understand why the State Department has been repeating the mantra that there are no options other than unconditional independence for Kosovo, as per Albanian demands.

117 auldtrafford  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:06:08pm

re: #113 buzzsawmonkey

re: #102 LSD

I don't believe it. Obama, if he wanted to engage in the behavior that Sinclair alleges took place, could have done better than Sinclair even on a state senator's salary.

Maybe he wanted a change.

118 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:06:33pm

Making dinner, but as I've been watching this story, I've been wondering what Medaura's (sp.) take on this is. Anyone seen her lately?

119 Killian Bundy  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:08:12pm

re: #106 Student of Objectivism

So what? Are they threatening Americans?

No, the question is, does this threaten ethnic Serbs?

/you know Russia's ally

120 Colin Nelson  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:08:23pm

#99 KT

Why is it likely that it will remain a secular state?

121 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:08:29pm
122 MacGregor  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:08:38pm

If sharia OR comunism falls over people like this, I will be pissed.

123 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:08:43pm

re: #101 debutaunt

re: #95 shug


OT
Woman dies after fall from UN building

UNITED NATIONS - A woman who worked for the United Nations died Sunday after falling from the 19th floor of the U.N.'s Secretariat Building, authorities said.
The official cause of death was to be determined by the medical examiner.

I'm going to go out on a limb here ( pardon the pun ) and say that the cause of death was the pavement

Cool! A medical examiner in our midst.

Shug, you're wrong. I saw a news item, with photo, which said she landed on the lawn.

124 Jfundie  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:08:45pm

KLA trained by Al Qaeda:

LA rebels train in terrorist camps
By Jerry Seper
THE WASHINGTON TIMES (5/4/99)

Some members of the Kosovo Liberation Army, which has financed its war effort through the sale of heroin, were trained in terrorist camps run by international fugitive Osama bin Laden -- who is wanted in the 1998 bombing of two U.S. embassies in Africa that killed 224 persons, including 12 Americans.
The KLA members, embraced by the Clinton administration in NATO's 41-day bombing campaign to bring Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic to the bargaining table, were trained in secret camps in Afghanistan, Bosnia-Herzegovina and elsewhere, according to newly obtained intelligence reports.
The reports also show that the KLA has enlisted Islamic terrorists -- members of the Mujahideen --as soldiers in its ongoing conflict against Serbia, and that many already have been smuggled into Kosovo to join the fight.
Known to its countrymen as the Ushtria Clirimatare e Kosoves, the KLA has as many as 30,000 members, a number reportedly on the rise as a result of NATO's continuing bombing campaign. The group's leadership, including Agim Ceku, a former Croatian army brigadier general, has rapidly become a political and military force in the Balkans.
The intelligence reports document what is described as a "link" between bin Laden, the fugitive Saudi millionaire, and the KLA --including a common staging area in Tropoje, Albania, a center for Islamic terrorists. The reports said bin Laden's organization, known as al-Qaeda, has both trained and financially supported the KLA.
Many border crossings into Kosovo by "foreign fighters" also have been documented and include veterans of the militant group Islamic Jihad from Bosnia, Chechnya and Afghanistan.
Many of the crossings originated in neighboring Albania and, according to the reports, included parties of up to 50 men.
Jane's International Defense Review, a highly respected British Journal, reported in February that documents found last year on the body of a KLA member showed that he had escorted several volunteers into Kosovo, including more than a dozen Saudi Arabians. Each volunteer carried a passport identifying him as a Macedonian Albanian.

125 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:09:11pm

re: #111 pre-Boomer Marine brat

re: #98 Colonel Panik

Thanks. Proves my memory hasn't gone. (yet)


LOL I'm glad to have a few functioning brain cells left as well.

126 Alas  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:09:15pm

Peaceful "happenings" in Denmark...

127 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:10:05pm

re: #119 Killian Bundy

No, the question is, does this threaten ethnic Serbs?


No, I don't think so. See my #110, they don't seem to have any interest in ethnic cleansing and would quickly lose support if they did.

128 Sneaky  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:10:08pm

Serbia has been royally screwed by the West. And now we give Kosovo away against Serbia's wishes. A new Muslim state run by a mafia-like terrorist organisation. Just what we wanted; thanks USA, EU etc.

And since we place such a low value on a nation's sovereignty, I suppose that we won't mind if California/ Scotland/ Normandy want independence.

Today is a fucking idiotic day in history. Today we grant legitimacy to the practice of massive illegal immigration followed by enormous birthrates in order to "steal" land from its owners.

Is there a single brain cell in attendance in Western Governments today?

And why is it that we keep on appeasing Muslims? Last time I checked, appeasement doesn't work.

129 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:10:43pm

I'm against these guys.

130 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:11:00pm

re: #125 Pvt Bin Jammin

Who are you?
Where am I?

131 auldtrafford  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:12:13pm

re: #121 buzzsawmonkey

re: #117 auldtrafford

There is enough to dislike about Obama as a candidate without descending into the sewer of scurrilous allegations.

You persuaded me; I don't like him.

132 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:12:18pm

re: #120 Colin Nelson

Because I think they're much like the Albanians. Very pro-American and secular. They will want to join the EU and continue to become a modern, civilized and peaceful country.

133 Jfundie  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:12:26pm

re: #127 Killgore Trout

re: #119 Killian Bundy


No, the question is, does this threaten ethnic Serbs?


No, I don't think so. See my #110, they don't seem to have any interest in ethnic cleansing and would quickly lose support if they did.

They already cleansed 100,000 Serbs (roughly 50% of Kosovo Serbs overall) since NATO came in. And murdered 900 for the flavor.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

134 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:12:48pm

I am also against these guys.

135 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:13:05pm

re: #129 mama winger

I'm against these guys.

With you on that one.

This is tough for me -- I have Serbian friends and Croatian friends and even some Albanian ones. None of them would trash a church, safe to say, since most of them are either clergy or relatives thereof.

I used to teach a class on Balkan history, but I stopped because it was just too damned depressing.

136 EC Marm  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:13:14pm

re: #94 Killgore Trout
Okay, they seem nice. Why is it then that one group of muslims in one country can like us and a slew of other islamic countries want us destroyed?
Mullah influence? Lack of Mullahs?
Absence of Wahabbi/Saudi propaganda?
Outlawing islam in the country for 30 years?
Poverty/lack of oil revenue to wage jihad?

137 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:13:26pm

re: #133 Jfundie

Yes, there was a very bloody civil war. I think we all remember it.

138 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:14:19pm

re: #135 Lucius Septimius

Depressing is a good word for it. I would also like to add infuriating.

139 spidly  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:14:39pm

re: #126 Alas

Peaceful "happenings" in Denmark...

[Link: www.liveleak.com...]

[Link: www.youtube.com...]


The first video is of the BZ'erne (squatters) from Undomshuset on Norrebrogade. They've been doing this kind of crap for 25+ years - they'll tear the hell out of the area for little to no reason. I thought they were really for true evicted last year but I guess not.

140 Alas  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:15:16pm

Kaffiyeh independence in Kosovo.

141 Killian Bundy  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:15:21pm

re: #127 Killgore Trout

No, I don't think so. See my #110, they don't seem to have any interest in ethnic cleansing and would quickly lose support if they did.

Tell that to Serbia and Russia, because they both appear to be really pissed about this at the moment.

/to them, this is a lot like Taiwan declaring independence from China.

142 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:15:46pm

re: #138 mama winger

re: #135 Lucius Septimius

Depressing is a good word for it. I would also like to add infuriating.

If you really want to wallow in it, read The Bridge on the Drina, a novel that captures just what a cess pool that region is and how long it's been that way.

143 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:15:46pm

re: #130 pre-Boomer Marine brat

re: #125 Pvt Bin Jammin

Who are you?
Where am I?


LOL those are the easy questions. I have to admit I'd be a little slow subtracting by sevens from 200. My poor husband had to have two of those memory tests. Thank God he passed.

144 Colonel Panik  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:16:15pm

Unpleasant historical point to ponder.
Slavic ruthlessness has been one of Europe's few effective counters to Islamic
fanaticism. Think Vlad Tepes, Jan Sobieski, Alexander Suvorov.

145 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:16:51pm

re: #138 mama winger

By the way, you know that the last king of Yugoslavia is buried in Libertyville, IL? It's at a Serbian Orthodox monastery on Rt. 21 just before Buckley Road, IIRC. The Lake County Republican Federation used to have their summer picnics there.

146 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:16:55pm

re: #142 Lucius Septimius

If you really want to wallow in it, read The Bridge on the Drina, a novel that captures just what a cess pool that region is and how long it's been that way.

gah.

I think I'll pass. I'm already depressed enough as it is. I have to visit my mother this week.

147 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:17:25pm

re: #136 EC Marm

That's the million dollar question. I think we can rule out communism; the Chechens seem happy to embrace radical Islam and terrorism. I'm sure the wahabis and terrorists would be more than happy to pour in resources in from all over the world but I suspect they'd be unwelcome. I suspect that the local culture is the key.

148 cookielady  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:17:27pm

re: #95 shug

I think you went out on a ledge.

149 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:18:15pm

re: #141 Killian Bundy

Tell that to Serbia and Russia, because they both appear to be really pissed about this at the moment.


Fuck'em.

150 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:18:31pm

re: #145 Lucius Septimius

It's at a Serbian Orthodox monastery on Rt. 21 just before Buckley Road, IIRC.

Yes, that's a beautiful place! I have often wanted to go in there - it looks so lovely!

On the other hand, I have an Albanian mosque about a mile up the road from me. The place looks like a tenement for condemned prisoners.

151 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:18:47pm

re: #146 mama winger

re: #142 Lucius Septimius

If you really want to wallow in it, read The Bridge on the Drina, a novel that captures just what a cess pool that region is and how long it's been that way.

gah.

I think I'll pass. I'm already depressed enough as it is. I have to visit my mother this week.

Sorry about that. If you need to dump, drop me an email ... think of it as payback for my last email 8^)

152 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:19:10pm

re: #150 mama winger

Where on earth is that?

153 freetoken  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:19:28pm

re: #33 Killian Bundy

Putin has some valid points on Kosovo, IMO. He's been highlighting the EU's hypocrisy on this issue (e.g., the EU not recognizing the breakaway Turkish areas of Cyprus).

Then of course there is the whole question as to why we, the US, have to do the heavy lifting to keep peace in the Balkans - shouldn't this be the responsibility of the EU (who is encouraging the Kosovars) and Russians, if indeed it is the responsibility of outsiders to be involved at all?

154 Jfundie  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:20:00pm

re: #137 Killgore Trout

re: #133 Jfundie

Yes, there was a very bloody civil war. I think we all remember it.

I'm not talking about the civil war (which was started by the KLA - drug dealing, Al Qaeda trained thugs, btw). This is AFTER the war we're speaking about. (The 2004 riots)

And i find it a bit strange that since you admit it was a bloody civil war, you accept the fact the Dictator Milisevic was captured and died in Hague, while KLA leader got to be a PM of a new NATO-sponsored state. Well, i guess in your opinion Serb blood is just cheaper than "secular muslim" blood.

155 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:20:16pm

re: #152 Lucius Septimius

re: #150 mama winger

Where on earth is that?

Corner of Highway H and 60th St. It's surrounded by barbed wire, full of weeds and painted gray. Charming place.

156 Colonel Panik  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:23:25pm

re: #132 Killgore Trout

re: #120 Colin Nelson

Because I think they're much like the Albanians. Very pro-American and secular. They will want to join the EU and continue to become a modern, civilized and peaceful country.


The Pro-American Terrorists.

157 WhiteRasta  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:23:54pm

re: #153 freetoken

Excellent point.

The whole problem is that the former Yugoslav Republics are a stinking mess and it seems there are no good guys.

Just bad guys and worse guys.

No easy answers.

158 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:25:43pm

re: #156 Colonel Panik

I think it's worth noting that they were radicalized right here in the US of A. They weren't imported jihadis, they were homegrown.

159 DeMoeial  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:26:40pm

"I’m not sure whose side to root for in the ethnic Albanian, Kosovo-Serbia morass—there are killers on all sides"

Oh, come on Charles, you've got to be fucking kidding me. There are killers one EVERY side, always. The Serbian government isn't the Milosevic government, they sent him to jail. The Kosovarian government has done nothing of the kind.

Just because you lack a decent background on the situation there, doesn't justify calling it a morass.

A terrible thing happened today. If you try and restrict a nation according to ethnic boundaries, you in the end create racism and give up democratic fundamentals such as empathy and representation of minorities.

160 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:27:18pm
161 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:28:59pm

re: #160 mama winger

John Bolton on Kosovo

Short version - he thinks this is a bad idea

162 Alas  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:29:02pm

Saudi-funded restoration efforts in the Balkans...

[Link: www.haverford.edu...]

[Link: antikafirphobia.files.wordpress.com...]

[Link: www.bangla2000.com...]

[Link: www.serbianna.com...]

[Link: sheikyermami.com...]

163 Killian Bundy  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:29:05pm

re: #149 Killgore Trout

Fuck'em.

/how long will they continue to just stand by and bend over?

164 abolitionist  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:31:08pm

re: #27 Jfundie

The picture that says it all...


The 2-headed eagle is a symbol much older than the Third Reich. I think it goes back centuries, as a unifying symbol of resistance against the Ottoman Empire.

165 Catttt  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:31:42pm

re: #146 mama winger

re: #142 Lucius Septimius


If you really want to wallow in it, read The Bridge on the Drina, a novel that captures just what a cess pool that region is and how long it's been that way.

gah.

I think I'll pass. I'm already depressed enough as it is. I have to visit my mother this week.

Coincidentally, I'm reading one set there now. It involves all the usual suspects, lying, subterfuge, kidnapping, etc. However, it's a historical romance, set in the Victorian era, so it's not depressing. Heavy for a historical romance, but still - a historical romance.

166 Randman  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:32:26pm

This last Christmas my friend went back to Macedonia, right next to Kosovo, and was shocked to see ethnic Albanians dressed like ski masked jihadist, walking through the market in Skopje carrying AK-47s. Greater Albania marches on.

167 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:32:52pm

re: #165 Cattt

Coincidentally, I'm reading one set there now. It involves all the usual suspects, lying, subterfuge, kidnapping, etc. However, it's a historical romance, set in the Victorian era, so it's not depressing. Heavy for a historical romance, but still - a historical romance.

I take a consistently anti-romance stand.

168 Piltdown Man  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:34:01pm

re: #159 DeMoeial

What about self determination and Democracy? The fact is that although the land was dear to the Serbians and they revere it, they couldn't get enough Serbians to live there when they had the chance.

So, practically speaking, when 90% of a population wants something, it becomes a given that it's going to happen. When they took away the autonomy of Kosovo, the Serbians started the ball rolling for losing it all.

169 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:34:11pm

re: #167 mama winger

re: #165 Cattt

Coincidentally, I'm reading one set there now. It involves all the usual suspects, lying, subterfuge, kidnapping, etc. However, it's a historical romance, set in the Victorian era, so it's not depressing. Heavy for a historical romance, but still - a historical romance.

I take a consistently anti-romance stand.

What about Harold Robbins' novels?

170 Catttt  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:34:56pm

re: #167 mama winger

re: #165 Cattt


Coincidentally, I'm reading one set there now. It involves all the usual suspects, lying, subterfuge, kidnapping, etc. However, it's a historical romance, set in the Victorian era, so it's not depressing. Heavy for a historical romance, but still - a historical romance.

I take a consistently anti-romance stand.

Heh. I had not read any until recently, when a sci fi story tricked me into it. Or do you mean romance in general?

171 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:35:01pm

re: #169 Lucius Septimius

Nope. Never read one.

172 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:35:39pm

re: #171 mama winger

re: #169 Lucius Septimius

Nope. Never read one.

Probably a good thing.

OK, time to put dinner on the table. BBL

173 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:35:47pm

re: #170 Cattt

Or do you mean romance in general?

Yes. I am against romance in all forms.

174 Lively  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:36:21pm

OT
BILL CLINTON SPARS WITH OBAMA SUPPORTER

I think he even hit me in the face with his hand,” he said.

This guy thinks Bill Clinton hit him in the face, lol? Doesn't someone know when they've been hit in the face?

175 Colonel Panik  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:36:22pm

re: #158 Killgore Trout

re: #156 Colonel Panik

I think it's worth noting that they were radicalized right here in the US of A. They weren't imported jihadis, they were homegrown.

Bullsh**

In an article titled "Behind Kosovo's Façade," Balkans observer Russell Gordon writes:

In many areas young Kosovo Albanians are being converted to the Wahabist faction, and are highly visible in their telltale short haircuts, beards, and ankle-length pants. As well, many Arabs are present from the Middle East and France...Moreover, anti-Western jihadist sermons are now a regular feature at many of the new mosques. Western military intelligence officials have stated that the findings of their investigations into the jihadist terror networks is routinely ignored or blocked by NATO, UN and US officials.
And yet, just one year before his eye-opening bus ride, Mr. Schwartz wrote what many Albanians still claim:

There are not now and never have been, in recent times, 'Muslim militants' in Kosovo, aside from a handful of individuals and some Saudi and other Gulf Arab-state cells operating through relief agencies...No 'international Islamist factions' are present in Kosovo or presently involved with Kosovo. No 'international Islamist factions' were involved in the Kosovo war...Kosovar Muslims are extremely anti-Islamist and pro-American.

176 DesertSage  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:36:33pm

Tim Robbin's writes novels?

177 uptight  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:36:53pm

I haven't checked yet, but I'd be willing to bet that MPACUK blames the Zionists for this.

178 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:37:20pm

re: #174 Lively

This guy thinks Bill Clinton hit him in the face, lol? Doesn't someone know when they've been hit in the face?

It depends on what the definition of 'face' is.

179 Arkay  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:39:09pm

Three things.

1. From about 1985 Serbia attempted to convert the artificial Communist confederacy known as Yugoslavia back into the Serb empire it had been when it was destroyed by Germany in 1941. Reviving it was utterly politically stupid, and motivated entirely by the desire to keep the Commies in power. To do so, Serbian socialists turned themselves into, yes, national socialists--and then wilfully proceeded to commit genocide in the name of their idol, the Serb state.

2. Serbs then tried to conquer all their neighbors--Slovenia, nominally; then Croatia (witness the massacre of Vukovar), then almost successfully against Bosnia--and when they ran out of victims, tried it against helpless Kosovo.

3. Lesson: If you're planning on genocidal campaigns, you'd better win the war, because bad things happen to your country when you lose it.

Yes, Kosovo is a political bastard mess--the evil offspring of ancient Turkish imperialism, Serbian national socialism and Communist malfeasance--but it is about 90% the fault of Serbia that things have come to this point. I shed tears for today's mess, but only for the consequences to the people who live there, not for a Serbia which still hasn't figured out it has blood on its hands and that its loss of its "jerusalem" is actually a good thing, as it will break the spell of what can only be called nationalist idolatry. Serbia hasn't owned Kosovo for well nigh half a thousand years. They need to get over it.

PS. Kosovo is almost 50% Christian. Babbling about a "muslim theocratic state" is merely repeating Serb propaganda, not understanding what is really going on.

180 Locke/Demosthenes  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:39:23pm

Given how pro-American the images out of Kosovo are at the moment, as well as the relative absence of headscarfs, car bombs in Belgrade, or calls for jihad against Serbian "infidels," it's difficult for me to imagine Kosovo becoming an islamic-terrorist state. What's more likely is that the country will resemble Albania or Turkey, being predominantly muslim but looking to westernize, join NATO and the EU, etc. My guess is that if Israel officially recognizes Kosovo, then Kosovo will return the favor.

There are truly moderate/secular muslims out there, and we need to have good relations with them. This will further help to discredit the islamists out there and reinforce the "intellectual turbulence" in the islamic world that our victory over Al Qaeda in Iraq is currently producing.

Also, it's now clear that the Cold War is back and it's only a matter of time before Serbia/Yugoslavia is just another Russian puppet state. Making concessions to Serbia and the Russians will just make them more likely to try increasing their overall sphere of influence in eastern europe. We can't afford to appease them right now.

Long story short, one side is definitely "bad" (Serbia/Russia) while the other is probably on our side. Supporting Kosovo independence is probably the wiser course of action.

181 Colonel Panik  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:39:38pm

re: #161 mama winger

re: #160 mama winger

John Bolton on Kosovo

Short version - he thinks this is a bad idea

If Bolton thinks it's a bad idea, it's a bad idea.

182 Catttt  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:40:20pm

OT

Basset hounds, when they get exited and do their woof woof thing, sound like they're losing their minds.

183 grumpy old codger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:40:35pm

One thing that stood in the way of one statism was the concept of the nation state. These states had been forged across various ethnic and religious boundaries. Now in the name of diversity, we are seeing these torn down.
How long before Catalonia wants separation from Spain, Brittany from France, Wales from the UK, etc.. Every group with a real or perceived gripe will demand "autonomy" and independence. If the Flemms ask for independence and Brussells refuses, who will we side with? Will we allow Paris to interfere with Brittany's secession?
Kosovo is only the beginning. Unfortunately, it will not end here. We have sown the storm and will reap the whirlwind.

184 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:40:46pm

re: #182 Cattt

OT

Basset hounds, when they get exited and do their woof woof thing, sound like they're losing their minds.

And look it too.

185 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:41:03pm

re: #175 Colonel Panik

They were all in their early 20's and most of them (if not all of them) immigrated over 10 years ago as children. They were radicalized here in America.

186 EC Marm  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:41:31pm

re: #156 Colonel Panik


The Pro-American Terrorists.


Good link. Well worth reading. I see that the Wahhabi influence is starting to work its charms.

187 Arkay  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:42:34pm

Serbia has been royally screwed by the West.>>

Boo hoo. One word: Srebrenica.

Nazis are bad, whether Islamo- or Serbian.

188 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:42:45pm

re: #182 Cattt

OT

Basset hounds, when they get exited and do their woof woof thing, sound like they're losing their minds.

Think of it as a baritone sonata.

189 Catttt  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:42:50pm

re: #182 Cattt

OT

Basset hounds, when they get exited and do their woof woof thing, sound like they're losing their minds.

Excited, not exited (though being exited would no doubt excite them).

190 The Shadow Do  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:43:34pm

This is purely anecdotal, but I do know a couple of guys in rural Texas, currently running a nice little restaurant business, that are proudly waving the American flag. They and their families were literally saved from certain slaughter by NATO actions and are profoundly grateful. The idea that folks in the newly declared State of Kosovo would be pro-America does not surprise me. I see a real opportunity to promote a counter-Jihad mentality in all of this. I hope folks are smart enough to take advantage.

191 rjjago  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:43:38pm

re: #39 PeaceBeUponHim

Here are about 75 pages detailing mass graves, rape camps et al - done by Serbia in Kosovo [1 MB PDF].

It's not a 'myth'.

192 Catttt  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:43:47pm

re: #188 mama winger

re: #182 Cattt


OT

Basset hounds, when they get exited and do their woof woof thing, sound like they're losing their minds.


Think of it as a baritone sonata.

Good description. It's not just barking - it's a woof chorus.

193 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:43:58pm

re: #180 Locke/Demosthenes


There are truly moderate/secular muslims out there, and we need to have good relations with them.


Agreed.

194 snowcrash  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:44:42pm

re: #160 mama winger
Thanks mama, I must have read 7 of the spin offs and still feel as if I don't know anything. Bolton makes good points. Spin it off.

195 Alas  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:44:57pm

Kosovo is now a Wahhabi state in Europe. It's all part of the plan of conquest. There once was a "moderate" Balkan version of Islam. The Saudis, in their inimitable way, have erased all Byzantine and even Ottoman influence with bulldozers and propaganda and rebuilding efforts with Wahhabi strings attached. Today is a sad day indeed. The first Wahhabi state in Europe has been established. It is a shame that the US is supportive.

196 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:46:15pm

re: #194 snowcrash

re: #160 mama winger
Thanks mama, I must have read 7 of the spin offs and still feel as if I don't know anything. Bolton makes good points. Spin it off.

Okay - I'll do that. ( Sometimes I forget about the spin-off thingy)

197 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:46:44pm

Kosovars celebrating their independence by waving American flags...
Yahoo pic

Celebrants enjoy fireworks marking declaration of independence in Pristina, Kosovo, Sunday, Feb. 17, 2008.


Also see: Yahoo pic


Kosovo's Albanians celebrate in the centre of Pristina February 17, 2008. Kosovo declared independence from Serbia on Sunday, ending a long chapter in the bloody break-up of Yugoslavia.


They seem nice.

198 Colonel Panik  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:47:07pm

re: #185 Killgore Trout

re: #175 Colonel Panik

They were all in their early 20's and most of them (if not all of them) immigrated over 10 years ago as children. They were radicalized here in America.

Perhaps but it does not address the Wahabist influence that is occurring there now, as this article from Front Page Mag illustrates:


One other point of interest is how the Albanians in Kosovo know how to put on a show and dance until they get their way. Right now they have no state, and the U.N. controls most activities in Kosovo, so they kiss up to America, who we all know has the final say in if they get their independence or not. One thing in their capital city that is a bit humorous, are all the dictator-like murals of one particular politician. In Baghdad before the fall of Saddam there were four or five story pictures of Saddam Hussein, well in Pristina Kosovo there are four or five story pictures of Bill Clinton. Clinton as we know was behind the taking of sides in the Kosovo Albanian's conflict with the Serbs of the late 1990s, using American planes to bomb the Serbs several hundred miles north of Kosovo in the Serbian capital of Belgrade. The Kosovo Muslims are of course grateful for this, yet I spoke with several dozen of them about their allegiances and it was blatantly clear that their allegiance was to the east, towards Mecca, and certainly not to the west. Where will their allegiances be once they get their way and have an independent state? Considering the continual bombardment of Saudi money and Wahabist indoctrination in most every mosque and every school in Kosovo? I saw the Saudi flag on more than one occasion while there, and even saw many of the U.N. workers driving around wearing full hijab Islamic head coverings, quite comforting considering the U.N. is suppose to protect the Christians who live there if they are attacked. But in 2003 we saw an uprising against the Christians where many churches were destroyed and Christians killed, and the U.N. troops all ran away.
199 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:47:18pm

re: #195 Alas

Don't be stupid.

200 freetoken  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:49:27pm

re: #183 grumpy old codger

[...]
How long before Catalonia wants separation from Spain, Brittany from France, Wales from the UK, etc.. Every group with a real or perceived gripe will demand "autonomy" and independence. If the Flemms ask for independence and Brussells refuses, who will we side with? Will we allow Paris to interfere with Brittany's secession?
Kosovo is only the beginning. Unfortunately, it will not end here. We have sown the storm and will reap the whirlwind.

Yes, that is one of the counter arguments (to the pro Kosovo independence.) It is a "slippery slope" argument... but still must be a concern.

201 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:50:06pm

re: #198 Colonel Panik

I know there's a lot of anti-Muslim hysteria, I say give them a chance. I will support their attempts to have a stable secular democracy until given reason not to.

202 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:50:08pm

re: #198 Colonel Panik

The Kosovo Muslims are of course grateful for this, yet I spoke with several dozen of them about their allegiances and it was blatantly clear that their allegiance was to the east, towards Mecca, and certainly not to the west. Where will their allegiances be once they get their way and have an independent state? Considering the continual bombardment of Saudi money and Wahabist indoctrination in most every mosque and every school in Kosovo? I saw the Saudi flag on more than one occasion while there, and even saw many of the U.N. workers driving around wearing full hijab Islamic head coverings, quite comforting considering the U.N. is suppose to protect the Christians who live there if they are attacked.

sobering

203 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:51:10pm

re: #198 Colonel Panik

P.S. Name a country without Suadi wahabi influence. UK and the US certainly aren't on the list.

204 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:51:16pm

re: #201 Killgore Trout

re: #198 Colonel Panik

I know there's a lot of anti-Muslim hysteria, I say give them a chance. I will support their attempts to have a stable secular democracy until given reason not to.

"trust, but verify"

205 EC Marm  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:51:29pm

re: #199 Killgore Trout
I think you should really take the time to slowly read the link in #156 with an open mind and filter it through your knowledge of islam. One picture may be worth a thousand words, but sometimes that picture is propaganda.

206 Killian Bundy  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:51:32pm

re: #179 Arkay

Kosovo is almost 50% Christian.

Got a linky for that? The population is 90% ethnic Albanian (10% Christians).

/you're not even remotely close

207 stryker  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:52:15pm

First of all, the issues of historic Israel and historic Yugoslavia are not parallel.

In the case of Yugos, I don't blame either terrorist side for wanting to separate from the other terrorist side.

After the divorce, if one side starts launching rockets at the other side like Hamas launching rockets against Sderot, or like Germans launching rockets against innocent people, then it's a new score card.

208 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:54:39pm

re: #205 EC Marm

I read it. It completely ignores the fact that they were radicalized here in the US. They didn't come here as jihadis, they came here as children and were turned into terrorists on American soil. That's the real problem, not Kosovo.

209 Colonel Panik  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:54:48pm

...

210 avideditorla.com[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:55:03pm
211 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:55:55pm

re: #210 avideditorla.com

No.

212 Colonel Panik  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:56:53pm

re: #203 Killgore Trout

re: #198 Colonel Panik

P.S. Name a country without Suadi wahabi influence. UK and the US certainly aren't on the list.

And that's a reason to support expansion of it? Lame argument, Trout.

213 EC Marm  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:58:02pm

re: #208 Killgore Trout
I wasn't disagreeing with you over that. It was your reply to #195. You seem to be convinced from a couple of photographs of U.S. flags waving that they are not being now influence by Wahhabis.

214 Colonel Panik  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:58:18pm

re: #160 mama winger

John Bolton on Kosovo

I guess John Bolton has fallen under the sway of Serbian propaganda.


/sarc

215 Piltdown Man  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:58:56pm

re: #201 Killgore Trout

Exactly right. We should simplify foreign affairs and make foreign relations similar to the way we carry on our own personal relationships. In our own personal dealings with people we are more inclined to side with people who like us rather than dislike us.

The most extreme example is the Palestinians. To my mind, Americans should watch them celebrate after 9/11 and that should be it, game over. After watching that, why would we even slightly take their feelings into consideration on anything?

In this case, the Kosovars have warm feelings toward the US and are busy praising and thanking the US. The Serbians on the other hand, have always cast their lot with Russia and although they may not hate us with a passion, we know they look to the East.

So there is no question in my mind that the Kosovars need to be given a chance and we may have a new little friend to hang out with.

216 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:59:16pm

re: #206 Killian Bundy

EWTN in 2007 numbered Catholics in Albania at approximately 1400 people. The main religion is listed as Sunni Muslim.

217 Geepers  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 3:59:39pm

avideditorla.com (#210),

I think you're confused. It's Alas' job to back up his contentions, not Killgore Trout's to disprove them.

218 NomadOfNorad  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:01:10pm

re: #123 pre-Boomer Marine brat

re: #101 debutaunt

re: #95 shug


OT
Woman dies after fall from UN building


UNITED NATIONS - A woman who worked for the United Nations died Sunday after falling from the 19th floor of the U.N.'s Secretariat Building, authorities said.
The official cause of death was to be determined by the medical examiner.


I'm going to go out on a limb here ( pardon the pun ) and say that the cause of death was the pavement


Cool! A medical examiner in our midst.

Shug, you're wrong. I saw a news item, with photo, which said she landed on the lawn.

Either way, it's not the fall that kills you, it's the sudden stop at the end. :D :D :D :D

219 opnion  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:01:11pm

The animosity between the Albanians & the Serbs goes back to the conquest of the Ottoman Empire.
The Albanians converted to Islam & busily set out helping to kill the Serbs who clung to Christianity.
In World War 11 the Serbs sided with the allies, mainly Russia, while the Albanians sides with the Axis. Many became SS troops.
When Clinton decided to go in & support the Muslims, there was nothing to indicate that the Serbs were even a bit worse than the Albanians.
Their biggest transgression to a president who needed a distraction is they were winning

220 Alas  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:01:21pm

re: #199 Killgore Trout

re: #195 Alas

Don't be stupid.

Look at the facts, KT. The evidence of Saudi efforts to reshape the Balkans by erasing the cultural and architectural past and replacing history with Wahhabism is out there on the Internet.

221 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:01:40pm

re: #214 Colonel Panik

He always was a little suspicious. :)

222 avideditorla.com[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:02:44pm
223 yochanan  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:04:49pm

re: #219 opnion

The animosity between the Albanians & the Serbs goes back to the conquest of the Ottoman Empire.
The Albanians converted to Islam & busily set out helping to kill the Serbs who clung to Christianity.
In World War 11 the Serbs sided with the allies, mainly Russia, while the Albanians sides with the Axis. Many became SS troops.
When Clinton decided to go in & support the Muslims, there was nothing to indicate that the Serbs were even a bit worse than the Albanians.
Their biggest transgression to a president who needed a distraction is they were winning

THE CROATS AND MUSLIMS WERE BOTH ALLIES OF THE NAZIS THE SERBS WEREN'T THE CROATS AND MUSLIMS BUTCHERED JEWS AND SERBS IN THE SAME DEATH CAMP

224 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:05:31pm

re: #220 Alas

How many terrorists has Kosvo produced recently? I can guarantee you less than the UK. Less than Spain. Less than Denmark. If there are moves to install sharia I will be happy to stand corrected. But from what I can tell they want to form a secular democracy. I think the move should be supported.

225 El matamoros  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:06:09pm

The Muslim countries of the world are pressuring the "west" EU and USA to side with the muslims in this conflict, the Serbs literally have NOTHING to offer the US so why should the US side with the Serbs? becuase its the right thing to do? LOL!

Im routing for the Serbs on this one and i always have. wE in the west were duped in the 1990's by the media to side with the Muslims simply becuase of the geo-politics. The Serbs are allied with russia and the Croats and and Muslims side with us. It turns out that most of the "genocide" stories were horse hockey and what atrocities did happen were committed by both sides. Before ANYONE makes a decision about this i suggest they REALLY and i do mean REALLY look into it. Because the problem is the US Gov't is going to take the side of the Muslims regardless of the facts on the ground.

Some people say the Kosovars and the Albanians our Pro-US, well guess what? that is only because they can get something out of it. WE abandon them and they'll blame us just like the Pakis and Afghanis did after the Soviet union was driven out. The plain fact is the Muslims of the Balkans have been driving out christians there for 500 years. And of course the West is complicit in this. When the christians of the Balkans tried to revolt with the help of Russia in the 19th century guess who Opposed it and helped Turkey? Why England of course! It was all about beating Russia and maintaining a balance of power to them, they could give a damn about what happened to the Christians in the Balkans. This situation is no different.

226 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:06:10pm

re: #222 avideditorla.com

re: #220 Alas

Alas I am with you on this point of view. But do you have and proof of Kosovo being Wahhabi?



You may find something here in this article .

227 lone_wolf_in_illinois  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:06:12pm

Sorry to chime in so late...

There are a few problems with this, that I don't know where to begin. I guess I will take the sensible view first, and that is that as soon as this happens, you will see other areas doing the same thing, i.e. Chechnya, Georgia, Kurdistan, some suburbs of Paris, London, Amsterdam, and Detroit. After that, if we don't give in, intifadas, fatwas and jihads will be declared in all of these areas.

Secondly, Kosovo has been an ally of al Qaeda, burning churches and raging their own persecution prior to the Serbian conflict.

Thirdly, if Kosovo becomes independent, the U.S. is almost required to acknowledge its validity because of Clinton (although there has been precedence set for administrations to not whole-heartedly back previous administrations policies.). If we back them, then we have to back any move by the Kurds to have their own state, putting the stability of Iraq and the Kurds at risk. At that point, it would be hard to not appear to be hypocritical in our policies.

As much as I would like to disagree with Russia on this one, I see their point.

228 Colonel Panik  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:06:43pm

re: #219 opnion

The animosity between the Albanians & the Serbs goes back to the conquest of the Ottoman Empire.
The Albanians converted to Islam & busily set out helping to kill the Serbs who clung to Christianity.
In World War 11 the Serbs sided with the allies, mainly Russia, while the Albanians sides with the Axis. Many became SS troops.
When Clinton decided to go in & support the Muslims, there was nothing to indicate that the Serbs were even a bit worse than the Albanians.
Their biggest transgression to a president who needed a distraction is they were winning

Actually, the Serbs looked to the West in WWII. They saved over 500 American and British pilots from capture by the Nazis and the Nazi allied Croat Ustashe and Bosnian Muslims.

Draza Mihailovic was betrayed by Soviet double agents in British Intelligence who supported the Communist Tito. Does the name Kim Philby ring a bell?

229 Arkay  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:07:59pm

THE CROATS AND MUSLIMS WERE BOTH ALLIES OF THE NAZIS THE SERBS WEREN'T THE CROATS AND MUSLIMS BUTCHERED JEWS AND SERBS IN THE SAME DEATH CAMPTHE CROATS AND MUSLIMS WERE BOTH ALLIES OF THE NAZIS THE SERBS WEREN'T THE CROATS AND MUSLIMS BUTCHERED JEWS AND SERBS IN THE SAME DEATH CAMP>>

Yeah, that was 65 years ago. 13 years ago? Srebrenica. And I assure you 8000 Muslims didn't tie their own hands behind their backs and shoot themselves in the base of their skulls with Serb rifles.

Any moral zorch the Serbs claim was lost in 1995. Screw 'em.

230 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:09:01pm

Here's another one...
Pic


Kosovar Albanians dance with an American flag in Kosovska Mitrovica, Kosovo, while celebrating the upcoming independence of Kosovo, Feb. 17, 2008. AP
231 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:09:01pm

re: #229 Arkay

Yeah, that was 65 years ago.

So it means nothing?

232 The Shadow Do  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:09:16pm

I don't understand the knee-jerk reaction to this Kosovo thing given the fact that Iraq is certainly Muslim as well. If there is an opportunity to create an anti-Wahabbi State, should it not be given a go? Should the waving of American flags not be encouraged and not disparaged?

233 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:09:55pm

Why don't we just go back to city-states and call it a day.

234 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:10:35pm

Or take it a step further. We can all just live in tribal families.

235 akak  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:11:50pm

Any time Russia is pitted against Islam, is time for some popcorn.

236 stevieray  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:12:23pm

re: #233 mama winger

Why don't we just go back to city-states and call it a day.

That is the way much of the world is heading... warring city-states.

237 ciaospirit  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:13:19pm
Kosovo's 2 million population is 90 percent ethnic Albanian, mainly secular Muslims, who do not want to be part of Serbia, a predominantly Christian Orthodox nation.

Why not if they are so secular, tolerant, and peace loving?

238 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:13:22pm

re: #236 stevieray

re: #233 mama winger

Why don't we just go back to city-states and call it a day.

That is the way much of the world is heading... warring city-states.

Yep. When George H.W. Bush talked about the New World Order in 1988, I wonder if this is what he meant.

239 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:13:54pm

re: #232 The Shadow Do

It doesn't happen much these days but this does happen here sometimes. It's sad to see people openly supporting Melosivich and conspiracy theories that war crimes didn't occur.

240 grumpy old codger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:14:11pm

re: #231 mama winger
A moderate in the Balkans is someone who will overlook an insult after 7 or 8 generations. Remember Cer Mountain in 1385?

241 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:14:26pm
242 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:15:03pm

re: #240 grumpy old codger

re: #231 mama winger
A moderate in the Balkans is someone who will overlook an insult after 7 or 8 generations. Remember Cer Mountain in 1385?

Kinda like the Hatfields and the McCoys, but with more cowbell.

243 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:17:02pm

re: #241 buzzsawmonkey

City-states would be a New World Disorder, not a new world order.

And here we go . I never liked that New World Order thingy anyway. It creeped me out.

244 Jfundie  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:17:18pm

re: #164 abolitionist

re: #27 Jfundie

The picture that says it all...


The 2-headed eagle is a symbol much older than the Third Reich. I think it goes back centuries, as a unifying symbol of resistance against the Ottoman Empire.

What did Charles say about Odin's cross? I truly wonder how Albanians felt natural with using their insignia for the Waffen SS unit and continue using it, while ire: #229 Arkay

THE CROATS AND MUSLIMS WERE BOTH ALLIES OF THE NAZIS THE SERBS WEREN'T THE CROATS AND MUSLIMS BUTCHERED JEWS AND SERBS IN THE SAME DEATH CAMPTHE CROATS AND MUSLIMS WERE BOTH ALLIES OF THE NAZIS THE SERBS WEREN'T THE CROATS AND MUSLIMS BUTCHERED JEWS AND SERBS IN THE SAME DEATH CAMP>>

Yeah, that was 65 years ago. 13 years ago? Srebrenica. And I assure you 8000 Muslims didn't tie their own hands behind their backs and shoot themselves in the base of their skulls with Serb rifles.

Any moral zorch the Serbs claim was lost in 1995. Screw 'em.

65 years ago, 6 million of my people (including some of my family) were slaughtered by the allies of Croatians and Balkan Muslims. The only ones who stood for them in that area were the Serbs.

It still matters to me very much. Never forgive - Never forget.

245 The Shadow Do  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:17:51pm

re: #239 Killgore Trout

re: #232 The Shadow Do

It doesn't happen much these days but this does happen here sometimes. It's sad to see people openly supporting Melosivich and conspiracy theories that war crimes didn't occur.

Sad indeed.

246 Geepers  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:18:17pm

The Shadow Do (#232),

Should the waving of American flags not be encouraged and not disparaged?

Apparently it's some sort of ploy based on political expediency.

You know, because when you're dancing in the streets in celebration you make decisions about what flag to wave with an eye toward what future diplomacy reward might be garnered by your duplicitous action.

247 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:18:39pm

I don't see anyone here openly supporting Melosivich. Did I miss something?

248 The Shadow Do  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:19:06pm

re: #246 Geepers

The Shadow Do (#232),

Should the waving of American flags not be encouraged and not disparaged?

Apparently it's some sort of ploy based on political expediency.

You know, because when you're dancing in the streets in celebration you make decisions about what flag to wave with an eye toward what future diplomacy reward might be garnered by your duplicitous action.

Seems a tad too convoluted to me.

249 NomadOfNorad  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:19:33pm

re: #181 Colonel Panik

re: #161 mama winger

re: #160 mama winger

John Bolton on Kosovo

Short version - he thinks this is a bad idea

If Bolton thinks it's a bad idea, it's a bad idea.

Speaking of Bolton. WTF was up with the Donks trying to indict him or some such thing this past week? That thing that caused the Republicans to all get up and walk out and then publicly berate them? (Which, of course, they absolutely deserved, in several playing-decks worth of spades.) What was it the Donks think he did that they want to charge him for? Other than, "Well, he's a flunky for Bush," that is. What specific, objectifiable crime do they think he committed?

250 debutaunt  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:19:35pm

All the cranky murdering people - go way the heck over there.

All the fun folks - hang around here.

251 Colonel Panik  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:19:39pm

At the end of the day, to use an overwrought phrase, I don't think anyone on either side has convinced anyone. Those of us who feel the mainstream media downplayed Bosnian and Albanian Muslim and Croat Neo-Ustashe atrocities against the Serbs and exaggerated Serb atrocities and continue to ignore the ongoing militant Islamist infiltration of the Balkans will continue to feel that way and those who think the Bosnian and Albanian Muslims are secular Europeans and the Serbs the new Nazis will continue in their belief.

I think part of it has to do with the fact that some people think that denying the MSM's credence over the Balkan wars of the 1990's will legitimize Holocaust denial. If that is truly the case, then why are some of the most prominent critics of our Balkan policy Jewish, such as Julia Gorin?

Only time will tell who is right.

252 Alas  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:19:46pm

re: #222 avideditorla.com

re: #220 Alas

re: #199 Killgore Trout

re: #195 Alas

Don't be stupid.

Look at the facts, KT. The evidence of Saudi efforts to reshape the Balkans by erasing the cultural and architectural past and replacing history with Wahhabism is out there on the Internet.

Alas I am with you on this point of view. But do you have and proof of Kosovo being Wahhabi?

The program of Saudi tampering in the Balkans is no secret and over a decade old. It's a program of destroying Byzantine churches that were converted to mosques and also destroying "moderate" Ottoman-style Islamic influences and replacing them with generic Saudi-style mega-mosques and all the attendant Wahhabi propaganda that goes with that. There are a huge number of Internet references on the issue, a few being:

Harvard University Fine Arts librarian Andras Riedlmayer, the co-author of a survey of Kosovo's war-damaged architectural sites, is outraged by the Saudi demolition program.

"Unfortunately, a Saudi aid agency got permits from the local reconstruction agency and from the local institute for the preservation of monuments to work on the restoration, so to speak, of the Hadum mosque complex in the center of the historic district."

[Link: www.bangla2000.com...]

This is an "optional" crisis. We cannot overlook the fact that the dominant element in the local Albanian administration are commanders from the so-called Kosovo Liberation Army that have known ties to the global jihad movement and organized crime. Further, more than 300 mosques have been built in Kosovo, funded mainly by Saudi Arabia where the radical teachings of the Wahhabi sect are promoted.

[Link: www.washingtontimes.com...]

[Link: www.haverford.edu...]

[Link: www.frontpagemag.com...]

[Link: www.assistnews.net...]

[Link: www.balkaninsight.com...]

253 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:20:01pm

re: #247 mama winger

#225

254 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:20:35pm

re: #249 NomadOfNorad

Speaking of Bolton. WTF was up with the Donks trying to indict him or some such thing this past week?

What the heck ?!? Another thing I missed!

I have to stop going to my job. I can't keep up.

255 Ma Sands  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:21:49pm

re: #226 mama winger

re: #222 avideditorla.com

re: #220 Alas

Alas I am with you on this point of view. But do you have and proof of Kosovo being Wahhabi?

You may find something here in this article .


Beautifully done article! --it was written 4 years ago...I would very much like to know how it has turned out since then...

256 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:22:10pm

re: #253 Killgore Trout

re: #247 mama winger

#225

Melosivich wasn't even mentioned in that post.

257 everlasting gobstopper  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:22:23pm

re: #24 vapig

IIRC, they already have. . . to Kosova.

258 Piltdown Man  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:22:31pm

Denial or minimization of the Serb nationalist atrocities of the 1990's should not be acceptable or tolerated. The atrocities are well documented and they occurred -- whether anyone here sympathizes with the victims or not and whether anyone agrees with US support for an independent Kosovo or not.

The majority of people in Kosovo (by a longshot) wanted their independence from Serbia desperately. That means it was going to happen one way or another. The way it did happen is better than any of the alternatives.

259 marwan's daughter  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:22:47pm

re: #247 mama winger

I don't see anyone here openly supporting Melosivich. Did I miss something?

They support him indirectly by whitewashing what he did.

Unless there is definite proof, and not fevered conspiracy theories, that Kosovo is heavily influenced by the fundies, I will side with the Kosovars. I swear, the Serbs are just as good as lying and exaggerating as the Palestinians. And if anyone criticizes the Serbs, they will accuse you of being racist. That's what Muslims do when they accuse someone of racism and Islamophobia.

I wonder what medaura has to say about this.

260 nyc redneck  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:23:02pm

re: #129 mama winger

I'm against these guys.

too many of them doing this sort of thing. too many going along w/ it. too few speaking out against it. and they are trying to gain ground everywhere, everyday. they will not be appeased until they dominate.

261 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:23:17pm

re: #255 Ma Sands

Hi Ma. Yes, I just recently stumbled across that website. It looks like there is some good information there. I'll bookmark it and take a closer look later on.

262 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:23:30pm

re: #243 mama winger

re: #241 buzzsawmonkey

City-states would be a New World Disorder, not a new world order.

And here we go . I never liked that New World Order thingy anyway. It creeped me out.

The Roman Empire was effectively a confederation of city states and (in the provinces) tribal entities. There is no reason why such a federal system can't work -- in a way our own state system is just such a confederation, with structures in place to ensure that the largest cities do not exercise undo influence within their sphere of influence.

The vast of majority of laws which have the most immediate impact on our daily lives are state and local regulations -- Federal regulations, while not unimportant, are much more indirect in their impact.

Ideally the federal government provides a reservoir of legal defense of rights against intrusion by local authorities. Unfortunately, that has not ended up being the case.

Damn those progressives anyway ...

263 stevieray  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:24:05pm

re: #243 mama winger

re: #241 buzzsawmonkey

City-states would be a New World Disorder, not a new world order.

And here we go . I never liked that New World Order thingy anyway. It creeped me out.

I think much of the dissolution has been caused by the "new world order" stuff floating around out there. People don't seem to want to be merged into some massive impersonal organization -- call it "world government" or "united nations" or "new world order" or whatever. All that talk has produced a backlash of sorts... people are searching out and clinging to their roots.

264 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:25:00pm

re: #256 mama winger

Directly no, but there are possibly some implications. I'll need to read it closely and think about it.

265 lone_wolf_in_illinois  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:26:54pm

re: #234 mama winger

Or take it a step further. We can all just live in tribal families.

The only tribe I want to be a part of is this one!

266 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:27:10pm

re: #259 marwan's daughter

They support him indirectly by whitewashing what he did.

Maybe some of that is here, yes, you are right. I myself am not trying to whitewash anything, but I am aware of media slant during the Clinton years to portray his actions in a favorable light. I wish the internet had existed at that time, I bet that Charles would be at the head of the line uncovering events we never even heard of, or only heard thru the filter of the MSM.

267 Geepers  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:28:14pm

This is going to make the kos kids seethe.

(Feb. 17) - Far and away, Abraham Lincoln is ranked by Americans as the nation's greatest president, according to a poll conducted by Harris Interactive and released this week, just ahead of Presidents Day. What's surprising is that President George W. Bush, whose approval rating has plunged to just 30 percent, also sneaks into the top ten list.

Americans Rank Lincoln as Top President

And don'tcha just love the wording?

What's surprising is that President George W. Bush, whose approval rating has plunged to just 30 percent, also sneaks into the top ten list.

And for proof of the editorial bias just check out the picture of Bush they chose to include.

268 Opilio  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:29:05pm

re: #254 mama winger

re: #249 NomadOfNorad

Speaking of Bolton. WTF was up with the Donks trying to indict him or some such thing this past week?

What the heck ?!? Another thing I missed!

I have to stop going to my job. I can't keep up.

They passed a resolution finding Bolton and Harriet Myers to be in "Contempt of Congress".

A badge of honor, I'd say.

269 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:29:19pm

re: #263 stevieray

re: #243 mama winger

re: #241 buzzsawmonkey

City-states would be a New World Disorder, not a new world order.

And here we go . I never liked that New World Order thingy anyway. It creeped me out.

I think much of the dissolution has been caused by the "new world order" stuff floating around out there. People don't seem to want to be merged into some massive impersonal organization -- call it "world government" or "united nations" or "new world order" or whatever. All that talk has produced a backlash of sorts... people are searching out and clinging to their roots.

You know what I'd like to see as a "new world order"? Universal and unqualified respect by the fricking government of the United States of America for the principle that "all men are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, and among these are life liberty and [as John Locke originally put it] property." Now that would be something new. And give up on this insane and tyrannical notion that the purpose of government is to make people "better" somehow. I take my people the way God created them, not the way that some microcephalic failed-ambulance-chaser politician wants them to be.

As PJ O'Rourke put it, the basic principles of a free society are "mind your own business" and "keep your hands to yourself." Hillary, mind your own business; Bill, keep your hands to yourself.

Dinner was delish, btw. Now dishes are calling.

270 ciaospirit  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:29:37pm

re: #256 mama winger

re: #253 Killgore Trout

re: #247 mama winger

#225

Melosivich wasn't even mentioned in that post.

I think KT might be suffering from the hysteria he is accusing others of.

271 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:30:25pm

re: #267 Geepers

Nice pic. Alfred E Newman would be jealous.

That sneaky Bush, wiggling his way into the top ten when no one was looking. Will Rove never stop?

272 macintush  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:30:43pm

re: #268 Opilio

re: #254 mama winger

re: #249 NomadOfNorad

Speaking of Bolton. WTF was up with the Donks trying to indict him or some such thing this past week?

What the heck ?!? Another thing I missed!

I have to stop going to my job. I can't keep up.

They passed a resolution finding Bolton and Harriet Myers to be in "Contempt of Congress".

A badge of honor, I'd say.

I have a bit of "Contempt for Congress" these days, myself...

273 marwan's daughter  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:30:48pm

re: #266 mama winger

re: #259 marwan's daughter

They support him indirectly by whitewashing what he did.

Maybe some of that is here, yes, you are right. I myself am not trying to whitewash anything, but I am aware of media slant during the Clinton years to portray his actions in a favorable light. I wish the internet had existed at that time, I bet that Charles would be at the head of the line uncovering events we never even heard of, or only heard thru the filter of the MSM.

It's too late for that. But I hope Charles covers the emerging city-state of Kosovo, and the plight of Albanian Christians.

274 Spiny Norman  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:31:33pm

There's no whitewashing Milosovic, but I'm not pleased by this at all. It feels like we finished the job Hitler's Bosnian SS Division started. Any honest assessment will show that there were no "good guys" in that fight (like the Iran-Iraq War - if only they both could lose) and we should never have gotten involved in the first place. I've also heard this from US Army soldiers who were there. The KLA are NOT our friends.

Besides all that fog, it restarted the Cold War with the Russians. Nice little star on Clinton's resume, wouldn't you say?

275 vapig  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:31:35pm
#268 Opilio 2/17/08 4:29:05 pm reply quote report 0

They passed a resolution finding Bolton and Harriet Myers to be in "Contempt of Congress".

I hold nothing BUT contempt for congress!

276 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:31:41pm

re: #269 Lucius Septimius

You know what I'd like to see as a "new world order"? Universal and unqualified respect by the fricking government of the United States of America for the principle that "all men are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, and among these are life liberty and [as John Locke originally put it] property." Now that would be something new. And give up on this insane and tyrannical notion that the purpose of government is to make people "better" somehow.

Amen. Protect the country, and get the heck out of my way.

277 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:32:30pm

re: #273 marwan's daughter

It's too late for that. But I hope Charles covers the emerging city-state of Kosovo, and the plight of Albanian Christians.

He will. We will.

278 EC Marm  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:33:05pm

re: #267 Geepers

And for proof of the editorial bias just check out the picture of Bush they chose to include.


Did you see how Reuters took the backhand to Bush on this one? They didn't even wait for the second paragraph, whacked him in the title:
Unpopular at home, Bush basks in African praise

279 David IV of Georgia  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:33:13pm

re: #244 Jfundie

Another group of southern Slavs, the Bulgarians, were asked by their allies the Nazis to send their Jews to "work camps" in Germany and Poland. The Bulgarians gave the Germans two options: We keep our Jews and remain your allies or you take our Jews and we become enemies.

280 lawhawk  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:33:14pm

NATO will be back in this region in a bad way before long. The whole region has been a mess that was barely under control under Tito and was a mess for centuries before that. Kosovo's independence does little to change the basic ethnic strife that has marked this region all along. If anything, it makes it official if and when war breaks out again as one group decides that the other shouldn't be there - so much of this territory is disputed.

So, while the birthing of a new state in Europe is one to watch and be hopeful for, the realist in me knows that far too many will be unhappy about this outcome and seek to change the results - both by seeking to expand Kosovo's borders and Muslims influence beyond its borders, and those who will think nothing of ridding the region of the Kosavars and Muslims therein.

281 dekalb  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:33:30pm

#21 - narco-state is right. I wish the standard media would report on Islam and drugs. They are really big pushers. The NATO intervention reduced the narco supply on the streets of W. Europe and the US, and then when NATO left, the Kosovars and Albanians resumed their traditional business. And heroin from Afghanistan is sometimes processed in-country, and in this case it is with chemicals from Pakistan and Iran.
Islam = violence + mayhem + narcotics + illiteracy + barbarism

282 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:34:43pm

re: #279 David IV of Georgia

re: #244 Jfundie

Another group of southern Slavs, the Bulgarians, were asked by their allies the Nazis to send their Jews to "work camps" in Germany and Poland. The Bulgarians gave the Germans two options: We keep our Jews and remain your allies or you take our Jews and we become enemies.

I read a book about that a couple of months ago, about the King of Bulgaria at that time. It was an eye-opener.

283 lawhawk  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:34:45pm

re: #267 Geepers

Well, I'm amazed at the list - that there are Presidents on there that people actually remember or know from history books and aren't just the past two ones. Considering the historical illiteracy in this country, I'll take positives wherever I can. /

284 Geepers  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:36:07pm

mama winger (#271),

That sneaky Bush, wiggling his way into the top ten when no one was looking. Will Rove never stop?

LOL. I'm sure the accusations of voter intimidation and ballot stuffing are already flying.

285 sneaky  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:36:23pm

Arkay, are you newly registered here or something?

Just because Serbia perpetrated a massacre a decade ago doesn't mean they should now lose part of their country. Serbia did behave disgracefully at one point, but they should not be thrown to the wolves because of it. Neither should the rest of Europe be made to pay, which is what will happen if Kosovo is granted independence.

286 Globular Cluster  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:36:24pm

[Link: www.janes.com...]


The Serbia-Israel connection

ISRAEL has received an urgent Serbian request for military supplies, according to FOREIGN REPORT's Israeli sources. The Serbian government, through a senior Israeli diplomat, has presented its shopping list of military equipment, medicines and credit. The Israeli response is not known.

Military ties between the Israelis and the Serb regime led by Slobodan Milosevic started in 1992 when a delegation from the Israeli defence ministry arrived in Belgrade, the Serbian capital, to try to sell arms to Serbia. According to the report from our sources, which is unconfirmed, a deal was eventually done for the supply of a large quantity of shells.

The co-operation became closer. About two months ago, some Serbian MiG-21 fighters - an old type but reliable - were flown to Israel. At an air base, Israeli experts examined the possibility of upgrading the MiGs by modernising their electronics and weapons. Avionics experts said the MiGs were too old and suggested that the Serbians buy new models. The MiG's were flown home.

Arm the enemy?

The Israel-Serbia Connection is bound to be frowned upon by the United States; it has also been criticised by an Israeli parliamentary committee. Its members pointed to reports that until 1992 Serbia was the main training location for the Palestinians.

Two Israeli groups support Serbia. One is the Serbian-Israeli Friendship Group, which regards Serbia's opposition to Hitler during the second world war as heroic. The other is the influential arms industry which, in a shrinking market, is fighting for its survival. Since most of the Serbian army is equipped with Russian-made weapons, with which the Israelis are familiar, this looks like a good opportunity. Serbia also has some T-60 tanks in need of updating.

The government need not be involved. Contacts between the two countries have been made through private businessmen. One of them is Jerusalem-based. Our sources say the Israelis are weighing the urgent Serbian request for assistance. On one hand, the Americans and Europeans would be angry. On the other hand, as our source says, the Israelis think they can get away with anything as far as the United States government is concerned.

Our prediction: Israel will respond with a substantial proposal, but only after the crisis is over.

287 Slumbering Behemoth  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:36:33pm

re: #269 Lucius Septimius

I like that "mind your business" part. A good motto that was on early American currency long before "In God We Trust".

288 shug  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:38:12pm

I have an important question:

Does this mean we'll have to endure that hag madeline albright and her cute little broaches, as she does interview after interview in the MSM as an "expert" on Kosovo?

289 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:38:13pm

re: #286 Globular Cluster

Very interesting link. Thanks

290 Colonel Panik  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:38:24pm

re: #235 akak

Any time Russia is pitted against Islam, is time for some popcorn.

Gates of Thunder: "Grazovie Vorota"

Warning...gory battle scenes. And they say American movies are violent.

291 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:39:25pm

re: #288 shug

I have an important question:

Does this mean we'll have to endure that hag madeline albright and her cute little broaches, as she does interview after interview in the MSM as an "expert" on Kosovo?

I would pretty much count on it. Meet the Press probably has her booked two months running.

292 Opilio  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:39:26pm

Oh, yeah. I probably should've mentioned, that it wasn't John Bolton, former U.S. ambassador to the U.N. It was Joshua Bolton, White House Chief of Staff.

From the Congressional Record:

Providing for the adoption of H. Res. 979 and for the adoption of H. Res. 980: The House agreed to H. Res. 982, providing for the adoption of the resolution (H. Res. 979) recommending that the House of Representatives find Harriet Miers and Joshua Bolten, Chief of Staff, White House, in contempt of Congress for refusal to comply with subpoenas duly issued by the Committee on the Judiciary and for the adoption of the resolution (H. Res. 980) authorizing the Committee on the Judiciary to initiate or intervene in judicial proceedings to enforce certain subpoenas, by a recorded vote of 223 ayes to 32 noes, with 1 voting ``present'', Roll No. 60, after agreeing to order the previous question by voice vote.
293 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:39:50pm

re: #287 Slumbering Behemoth

re: #269 Lucius Septimius

I like that "mind your business" part. A good motto that was on early American currency long before "In God We Trust".

I think we should bring back the old coinage. I especially like the original lady liberty. God bless her!

294 vapig  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:40:21pm
#288 shug 2/17/08 4:38:12 pm reply quote report 0

I have an important question:

Does this mean we'll have to endure that hag madeline albright and her cute little broaches, as she does interview after interview in the MSM as an "expert" on Kosovo?

*shudder*

295 Jfundie  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:40:37pm

re: #286 Globular Cluster

Israel was officially neutral on NATO-Serbia conflict. That was proposed by the late Minister of culture Rechavam Zeevi who was later assassinated by PFLP. (The last great Israeli politician IMO)

296 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:40:39pm

re: #293 Lucius Septimius

Did you see that Hillary was here at the Brat Stop yesterday?

297 Geepers  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:40:44pm

EC Marm (#278),

Did you see how Reuters took the backhand to Bush on this one? They didn't even wait for the second paragraph, whacked him in the title:
Unpopular at home, Bush basks in African praise

Yes, so unpopular he was voted as one of the top ten Presidents. Idiots.

298 Globular Cluster  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:40:48pm

[Link: www.croatianhistory.net...]

The Media
In the way they have related to the war in the Balkans, Israeli media, both printed and electronic, show remarkable uniformity. During the conflict in Slovenia and Croatia and at an early stage of the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina, Israeli media took a pro-Serbian position. This was clear not only in attempts to explain and interpret what was happening, but also in the way the events were being reported. But in the summer of 1992, when the reports about the camps the Serbs were operating in Bosnia-Herzegovina were in the headlines throughout the world, Israeli newspapers ran some of the stories, and state television screened some of the footage from the camps that was being shown worldwide. That marked the beginning of a change in the way the developments were being reported. Slowly but surely, the reports became more detailed and professional; the Israeli public was in a position to learn more and more about the facts of the Serbs' war on the non-Serbian civilian population, the camps, `ethnic cleansing' and the rest.

On the other hand, when it came to commenting on the events, explaining them to a public that knows next to nothing about Balkan geography or history, and setting out their wider implications, a pro-Serbian stand has reigned supreme to this day both in the press and in radio and television programmes. To be sure, some of the daily papers have gone to greater lengths in putting across the Serbian case than others. In terms of both frequency and space, the pride of place belongs to Ma'ariv and the now defunct Davar, the two dailies whose columnists included members of the Serbian lobby. On the other hand, Israel' English language daily, The Jerusalem Post, has been the main vehicle for opinion pieces and letters to the editor supporting the Serbs, sent both from Israel and from abroad.

An informal, but well organized and aggressive Serbian lobby in Israel has been active from the very beginning of the breakup of Yugoslavia. It includes a number of media personalities, in concert with the Association of Immigrants from Yugoslavia and the Embassy of `Yugoslavia' (Serbia and Montenegro) in Israel. This lobby has enjoyed a virtual monopoly on analysing, explaining, and interpreting events in ex-Yugoslavia. Editors of all the major newspapers and of radio and television news and analysis programmes have provided its activists with as much space and time as they wish, while only rarely allowing the voicing of dissenting views.

...

299 Globular Cluster  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:41:41pm
The Serbian lobby cuts across the divisions of Israeli politics: among its members one finds both pronounced leftists, such as Raul Tajtelbaum, senior journalist with the daily Yediot Ahronot, and people with right-wing views that occasionally border on fascism, such as Yosef Lapid, a columnist with the daily Ma'ariv and one of the most popular and influential media personalities in Israel. The Israeli promoters of what the Serbs call `the Serbian truth' have put across all the main tenets and made use of all the standard methods of Belgrade propaganda. Western media have called Slobodan Milosevic `the Belgrade Butcher' and `the Belgrade Hitler'; his Israeli supporters have presented him to the local public as the Yugoslav Abraham Lincoln.7 They have steadfastly maintained that the atrocities that have being reported actually never happened.8 It was all in, in Lapid's words, a mere `war of the cameras' (Ma'ariv, 29 June 1992). At the Yediot Ahront columnist Uri Elizur explained in more detail, `the terrible stories of ethnic cleansing, genocide, and rape of tens of thousands of women are mostly war propaganda of the Bosnians, which the free press has volunteered to trumpet', partly because that was the fashionable thing to do, and partly because of the influence of `Christian morality, which says that the weak is the one in the right' (Yediot Ahronot, 23 Feb. 1994). Alternatively, they have assured the Israeli public that what the media were reporting as Serbian war crimes had in truth been committed by the Serb's victims. After every major atrocity, Bosnian Serb leader Radovan Karadzic divulged that what had really happened was that Bosnian Muslims and Croats were slaughtering their own civilians in order to blacken the image of Serb fighters. His Israeli supporters, such as Pazit Ravina of the Davar or Yohanan Ramati, a frequent contributor to The Yerusalem Post, have duly transmitted the explanation to the local public, backing it up with claims of confirmation by unnamed Israeli military experts.9

Many commentators on the war in ex-Yugoslavia have been struck by the Serbs' tendency to explain and justify the genocide and mass expulsion they are carrying out today by presenting it as revenge for what their people had suffered at the hands of Croat collaborators with the Nazis half a century ago, or at the hands of the Turks six centuries ago. The promoters of `the Serbian truth' in Israel have adopted the same historical approach, have given it a distinctively Jewish twist, and have deployed it to great effect. They have told us time and again that the current war must be seen as a continuation of the Second World War. In that war, they say, the Serbs fought against the Nazis and helped and protected the Jews, while the Croats and Muslims fought on the side of the Nazis and helped them persecute and exterminate the Jews. Therefore we Jews must side with the Serbs today; it is an `historical debt' that must now be paid. As Yosed Lapid memorably put it, we must give the Serbs all the sympathy and support we can,`no matter what they might do'.10

300 Killian Bundy  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:42:02pm

re: #249 NomadOfNorad

Speaking of Bolton. WTF was up with the Donks trying to indict him or some such thing this past week?

House finds Bolten, Miers in contempt of Congress

The House voted Thursday to hold White House Chief of Staff Josh Bolten and former White House counsel Harriet Miers in contempt of Congress for refusing to testify before a panel investigating the firing of several United States attorneys.

Ahead of the vote, Republicans had walked out in an effort to show that they want to work on a permanent update to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) rather than be part of a “partisan fishing expedition,” as House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-Ohio) put it.

/different person

301 Globular Cluster  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:42:11pm
Of course, this is a crude revision of Second World War history. It conveniently leaves out both Serb collaborators with the Nazis, and Croat and Bosnian partisans who fought the Nazis and their Serb, Croat and other allies.11 But that is not the main point. The crux of the matter is the notion of collective biological responsibility on which the argument is based. What is remarkable is that this pre-modern view of humanity and human responsibility, espoused earlier in the century by the Nazis (and later by the proponents of `Greater' and `ethnically homogeneous' Serbia), should have been adopted today by Jews, of all people, in the Jewish state, of all places. It is even more remarkable that the argument is by no means put forward only by activists of the Serbian lobby in Israel. It has been voiced by Israeli Jews both religious and secular, from various walks of life and educational and ethnical backgrounds, including members of Israel's intellectual elite, and Holocaust survivors too.
302 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:42:14pm
303 NomadOfNorad  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:42:16pm

re: #266 mama winger

re: #259 marwan's daughter

They support him indirectly by whitewashing what he did.

Maybe some of that is here, yes, you are right. I myself am not trying to whitewash anything, but I am aware of media slant during the Clinton years to portray his actions in a favorable light. I wish the internet had existed at that time, I bet that Charles would be at the head of the line uncovering events we never even heard of, or only heard thru the filter of the MSM.

You mean you wished the blogosphere existed back then. The internet has existed since the 1980s or so at least, in the form of usenet, archie, ftp, and stuff... The World Wide Wait, er, Web came along about the early to mid 1990s or so, but was very small and primitive in the amount of pages out there, and blogging hadn't been invented yet.

304 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:43:19pm

re: #296 mama winger

re: #293 Lucius Septimius

Did you see that Hillary was here at the Brat Stop yesterday?

No! LOL! One of my sister's old boyfriends was probably there, the one my dad always referred to as "dickhead". He's been a fixture at the bar there since before the old one burnt.

305 Geepers  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:43:30pm

lawhawk (#283),

Well, I'm amazed at the list - that there are Presidents on there that people actually remember or know from history books and aren't just the past two ones. Considering the historical illiteracy in this country, I'll take positives wherever I can. /

Agreed.

306 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:43:50pm

re: #303 NomadOfNorad

You mean you wished the blogosphere existed back then. The internet has existed since the 1980s or so

Yes - that's what I meant :)

You can tell what a geek I am not. LOL

307 El matamoros  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:44:06pm

"ON april 18, 1994 two thousand people rallied in Savajevo waving the flags of Saudi Arabia and Turkey. By flying those banners, instead of US, NATO or EU flags, these Sarajevans idenitifed themselves with their fellow Muslims and told the world who were their real and not so real friends...

IN the yugoslav conflicts, Russia provided diplomatic support to the Serbs, and SAUDI ARABIA ANF TURKEY AND IRAN AND LYBIA provided funds and arms to the Bosnian Muslims, not for economic reason but becuase of cultural kinship...

...THese views were echoed by the principal opposition party in SErbia "THe situation in southeastern europe will soon require the formation of a new balkans alliance of orthodox countires, including Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria, in order to resist the encroachment of Islam..."

---THE CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS by Samuel P. Huntington.

308 sarah  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:44:11pm

re: #239 Killgore Trout

Killgore, I agree with your lets see where this takes us first. I think that Albanians themselves are wanting to be more western.

309 ciaospirit  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:44:14pm

re: #274 Spiny Norman

Besides all that fog, it restarted the Cold War with the Russians. Nice little star on Clinton's resume, wouldn't you say?

And how many LLL anti-war marches did we see condemning Clinton's actions?

310 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:44:51pm

re: #302 buzzsawmonkey

re: #269 Lucius Septimius


Someone--wish I could remember who--said that any political system which depends for its success on a new kind of human being was doomed to failure.

That simple statement explains the failure of communism and the success of capitalism better than any other.

Yep. That pretty well nails it. Too bad it's cost 100 million dead and counting to demonstrate that, and way too many people, including better than half the houses of Congress, still haven't gotten a clue.

311 David IV of Georgia  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:45:13pm

re: #274 Spiny Norman

I'm not sure there was a right side for the US to be on in this conflict—either side we chose would turn out to be the wrong side. Do we choose communist thugs or Muslim terrorists? We should have ignored all the Europeans whining for us to take care of the mess in their back yard. They whine if we do and they whine if we don't.

312 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:45:36pm

re: #310 Lucius Septimius

Hmm. formatting being cranky.

313 gettinby  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:45:44pm

Interesting on our Presidents (to me anyway)...

Many, including myself, are very comfortable referring to Obama and Hillary and Bill and Jimmah by their first names.

Don't see too many references to 'Ronnie/Ronald', or 'George.'

Just an observation. :)

314 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:45:52pm

re: #304 Lucius Septimius

LOL! I wanted to go so bad, but LW wouldn't take me and I don't do well in crowds. Apparently Hillary cried again. Some lady had her kid there and gave Hillary her sad tale of woe about her house being foreclosed on. Hillary was moved.

However, it came out today that the lady sends her kid to private school and drives a Range Rover. ...

315 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:46:02pm
316 grumpy old codger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:47:26pm

re: #262 Lucius Septimius

"A confederation of city states" kept well within line by a strong army. I think your concept of what the Roman Empire was is weak.
Additionally, anyone who has studied the history of the Balkans realizes that whenever the controlling power is weakened, for whatever reason, the locals will find an opportunity to get back at their neighbors. And that includes any and all of them. Atrocities have been and will continue to be the order of the day. If anyone thinks that Tito kept the lid on Yugoslavia due to his charming personality, they are naive. The next time any one of the various "tribes" down there gets a chance, they'll go for payback or the chance to increase their own sphere.

317 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:47:45pm

re: #314 mama winger

re: #304 Lucius Septimius

LOL! I wanted to go so bad, but LW wouldn't take me and I don't do well in crowds. Apparently Hillary cried again. Some lady had her kid there and gave Hillary her sad tale of woe about her house being foreclosed on. Hillary was moved.

However, it came out today that the lady sends her kid to private school and drives a Range Rover. ...

Oh that's too rich.

Did she have an Old Style draft? Maybe a Special Export -- that might have moved her to tears.

318 Egfrow  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:48:04pm

This Serbia conflict is much older than the Israeli Palestine conflict. B.J. Clinton thought we could resolve it with a few planes and some bombing. Anywhere Islam is in conflict with another culture there is going to be long term bloodshed. The rest of Europe is just about to find that out.

319 macintush  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:48:15pm

re: #314 mama winger

re: #304 Lucius Septimius

LOL! I wanted to go so bad, but LW wouldn't take me and I don't do well in crowds. Apparently Hillary cried again. Some lady had her kid there and gave Hillary her sad tale of woe about her house being foreclosed on. Hillary was moved.

However, it came out today that the lady sends her kid to private school and drives a Range Rover. ...

Paying for Range Rover repairs might well put your house into foreclosure!

320 NomadOfNorad  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:48:58pm

re: #268 Opilio

re: #254 mama winger

re: #249 NomadOfNorad

Speaking of Bolton. WTF was up with the Donks trying to indict him or some such thing this past week?

What the heck ?!? Another thing I missed!

I have to stop going to my job. I can't keep up.

They passed a resolution finding Bolton and Harriet Myers to be in "Contempt of Congress".

A badge of honor, I'd say.

And being in Contempt of Congress means what, precisely? What would have happened to them if the Donks had managed to pass that resolution?

321 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:49:11pm

re: #316 grumpy old codger

I don't think I'd call the Roman Empire weak. In it's basic constitutional form it lasted for a very long time. Problems set in once it abandoned federalism for centralization.

322 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:49:41pm

re: #317 Lucius Septimius

I hear she had a brat and a beer - don't know what kind.

BUT GET THIS !

On local news last night she told the reporter that YES - SHE IS A HUNTER !

Her dad used to take her hunting for varmints! And she likes to shoot tin cans for target practice ! OH YES !

By Tuesday, I'm sure she'll be claiming to be Brett Favre's long-lost auntie.

323 kevin the ox  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:50:32pm

There are some things wrong in some of the comments above.

Firstly, the Wahhabi funding machine has been active in Kosovo since immediately after "Clinton's War." Old Ottoman mosques were "renovated" to the austerity favored by Saudis, traditional old Muslim grave markers (elaborately carved stone or wood posts) were removed and destroyed, and the education systems were taken in hand by the Saudi-funded apparatchiks.

Secondly, giving Kosovo to the Albanians is like giving New England to a bunch of illegal immigrants. The reason they're a vast majority now in the ancient homeland of the Serbs is that in the aftermath of "Clinton's War" the unbridled persecution against the remaining Serbian population, including monastics who granted Muslims sanctuary during the earlier Serbian military operations, drove them out of their ancestral homes. This is what the appeasement of the violent leads to, the destruction of a nation's historical rights.

Thirdly, it is precisely the case that the illustrious William Jefferson Clinton, now history's most famous irrumator, bought wholesale those lies about mass graves, so that this happened anyway. Tales about villages of people dumped into old mines, or mass graves of machine-gunned women and children all turned out to be lies. The "mass" graves they did find indicated civilian populations dead from bombings, with numbers in the tens, not hundreds. I recall the embarassed shock of the investigating teams, realizing that their liberal war was all built on a lie. (I could swear I'd read about those here on LGF, too. Perhaps not.) Now, this is not to excuse earlier atrocities that were certainly committed on the part of the Serbian military in Srebrenica. But the same did not occur in Kosovo. The Albanians learned what buttons of the Westerners to push, they pushed them, and here now they have another country of their own. That's three now, Albania, "Macedonia" and Kosovo.

It's disgusting.

324 AuldTrafford  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:50:34pm

re: #322 mama winger

Next, she'll wanna get her a huntin' license.

325 OldLineTexan  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:50:41pm

re: #296 mama winger

re: #293 Lucius Septimius

Did you see that Hillary was here at the Brat Stop yesterday?

It was immediately renamed The Broom Stop.

326 Slumbering Behemoth  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:50:46pm

re: #293 Lucius Septimius

I think we should bring back the old coinage.

I would like that. I think it would be extra cool if they used the old materials as well, but that'll never happen. Who wants to carry around a $400 coin?

re: #315 buzzsawmonkey

We certainly need to get rid of the butchers who are sculpting the coinage at present. The stuff looks like the tokens they used to give out at Asbury Park--except not as well designed.

I totally agree, cheesy tokens indeed.

327 Globular Cluster  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:50:55pm

re: #295 Jfundie

re: #286 Globular Cluster

Israel was officially neutral on NATO-Serbia conflict. That was proposed by the late Minister of culture Rechavam Zeevi who was later assassinated by PFLP. (The last great Israeli politician IMO)

I believe Israel is also hesitating to recognize the independence of Kosovo. I find that troubling.

328 gettinby  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:51:37pm

re: #310 Lucius Septimius

Yep. That pretty well nails it. Too bad it's cost 100 million dead and counting to demonstrate that, and way too many people, including better than half the houses of Congress, still haven't gotten a clue.

Or, worse, they do have a clue, but believe they can "make socialism/communism work." That's the impression many of them leave with me.

329 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:51:38pm

re: #323 kevin the ox

giving Kosovo to the Albanians is like giving New England to a bunch of illegal immigrants.

I could live with that.

330 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:52:10pm

re: #325 OldLineTexan

re: #296 mama winger

re: #293 Lucius Septimius

Did you see that Hillary was here at the Brat Stop yesterday?

It was immediately renamed The Broom Stop.

LOL!

331 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:52:12pm

Can we start recommending deletion of comments denying Serbian war crimes?

332 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:52:41pm
333 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:52:42pm

re: #330 mama winger

re: #325 OldLineTexan

re: #296 mama winger

re: #293 Lucius Septimius

Did you see that Hillary was here at the Brat Stop yesterday?

It was immediately renamed The Broom Stop.

LOL!

As I remember from the last time I was there, it could use a good sweeping out.

334 Geepers  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:53:06pm

ciaospirit (#309),

And how many LLL anti-war marches did we see condemning Clinton's actions?

What?! You don't remember them all? The drum circles and fat belly dancers for peace performances?

And all the NY Times editorials about how wrong unilateral action is. And the outcry from the progressive community due to the lack of UN approval. And daily AP articles condemning the indiscriminate bombings and the Lancets' statistical analysis of the millions of innocent civilians killed?

Oh right, I made all that up. Never mind.

335 Jfundie  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:53:11pm

re: #327 Globular Cluster

re: #295 Jfundie

re: #286 Globular Cluster

Israel was officially neutral on NATO-Serbia conflict. That was proposed by the late Minister of culture Rechavam Zeevi who was later assassinated by PFLP. (The last great Israeli politician IMO)

I believe Israel is also hesitating to recognize the independence of Kosovo. I find that troubling.

You are wrong unfortunatly. Israel has already recognized the Muslim drug dealing state.

There are no real men left in Israeli politics.

336 Talon  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:53:11pm

Excellent!

Another muslim democracy! That makes what now...? Uh...

Never mind...

337 Opilio  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:53:21pm

re: #313 gettinby

Interesting on our Presidents (to me anyway)...

Many, including myself, are very comfortable referring to Obama and Hillary and Bill and Jimmah by their first names.

Don't see too many references to 'Ronnie/Ronald', or 'George.'

Just an observation. :)

And yet you didn't refer to Obama by his first name in your post.

Just an observation (:

338 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:53:21pm
339 Globular Cluster  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:53:24pm

re: #323 kevin the ox

Kevin, there is much in your post that requires proof/links/evidence.

340 David IV of Georgia  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:53:29pm

re: #282 mama winger

re: #279 David IV of Georgia

re: #244 Jfundie

Another group of southern Slavs, the Bulgarians, were asked by their allies the Nazis to send their Jews to "work camps" in Germany and Poland. The Bulgarians gave the Germans two options: We keep our Jews and remain your allies or you take our Jews and we become enemies.

I read a book about that a couple of months ago, about the King of Bulgaria at that time. It was an eye-opener.

His remains were hidden from the Nazis. I missed his funeral in Rila Monastir by one week. The current King of Bulgaria, Simeon, has of late been the Prime Minister of Bulgaria. After communism, Bulgaria was becoming increasingly divided. The king ran as the democratic candidate against the communist and green parties. The king got support from both the democrats and the royalists giving him a majority. He officially had to abdicate (if I remember correctly) but people still refer to him by his royal titles.

341 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:53:59pm

re: #324 AuldTrafford

re: #322 mama winger

Next, she'll wanna get her a huntin' license.

Here's a pantsuit I bet she doesn't have.

342 macintush  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:54:11pm

re: #332 buzzsawmonkey

maybe where you live...

343 OldLineTexan  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:54:33pm

re: #311 David IV of Georgia

re: #274 Spiny Norman

I'm not sure there was a right side for the US to be on in this conflict—either side we chose would turn out to be the wrong side. Do we choose communist thugs or Muslim terrorists? We should have ignored all the Europeans whining for us to take care of the mess in their back yard. They whine if we do and they whine if we don't.

I suggest a polite note to the EU suggesting they hurry up and DO something. Oh, and let us know how it turns out.

344 Opilio  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:54:44pm

re: #331 Killgore Trout

Can we start recommending deletion of comments denying Serbian war crimes?

We can recommend anything we like. Whether it produces any effect is a different matter.

345 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:54:47pm

re: #334 Geepers

I remember some backlash. Remember "Wag the Dog"? It was all about him distracting from his blowjob. I also seem to recall a lot of New World Order type conspiracies too.

346 Egfrow  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:55:23pm

Here is a history of Islamic conflict with Kosovo.

At the beginning of the 13th century Kosovo became part of the Serbian Kingdom, its population then being a mixture of Serbs, Albanians and Vlachs. It was not long before Kosovo became the cultural and religious heart of Orthodox Serbia, with many churches and monasteries being erected on its grounds. During the course of time, however, Kosovo's ethnic composition evolved into the province nowadays consisting mainly of Albanians professing the Islam, %u0430 great deal of this owing to the Medieval five-century Ottoman rule over Serbia, during which many Christian Serbs were driven out of. Out of the over-two-million people now living in Kosovo, about 92 per cent are Albanians and only five per cent are Serbs. (this will be the rest of Europe's future if things don't change. ed note.)

In 1912, during the First Balkan War, Serbia managed to regain control over most of Kosovo from the Ottoman Empire. Serbian sovereignty over the province was recognized and the Serbs started a re-colonization of Kosovo. At the end of World War 1, Kosovo was fully subject to the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (the transformed Serbian Kingdom).

During World War 2, most of Kosovo became part of the Italian-controlled fascist Albania. A big number of Serbs were either expelled from the province or killed.

After the end of WW2, Kosovo became a province of the Serbian Republic, part of the communist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. In the 1960s and 1970s Kosovo gained more and more autonomy, until the 1974 Yugoslav constitution granted autonomous status to the Socialist Autonomous Province of Kosovo and gave it privileges of a de facto republic within the Yugoslav federation. By the beginning of the 1980s the Albanians in Kosovo were already a vast majority.

347 Colonel Panik  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:55:55pm

re: #327 Globular Cluster

I believe Israel is also hesitating to recognize the independence of Kosovo. I find that troubling.

They see it as bad precedent for what might happen with Samaria and Judea.

348 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:56:01pm

re: #340 David IV of Georgia

His remains were hidden from the Nazis. I missed his funeral in Rila Monastir by one week.

wow - you were in Bulgaria ?

349 Globular Cluster  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:56:14pm

re: #335 Jfundie

re: #327 Globular Cluster

re: #295 Jfundie

re: #286 Globular Cluster

Israel was officially neutral on NATO-Serbia conflict. That was proposed by the late Minister of culture Rechavam Zeevi who was later assassinated by PFLP. (The last great Israeli politician IMO)

I believe Israel is also hesitating to recognize the independence of Kosovo. I find that troubling.

You are wrong unfortunatly. Israel has already recognized the Muslim drug dealing state.

There are no real men left in Israeli politics.

Hmmm. So then I suppose we shouldn't be in Iraq or Afghanistan, because those countries have/will have secular Muslim governments.

350 gettinby  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:57:32pm

re: #337 Opilio

re: #313 gettinby

Interesting on our Presidents (to me anyway)...

Many, including myself, are very comfortable referring to Obama and Hillary and Bill and Jimmah by their first names.

Don't see too many references to 'Ronnie/Ronald', or 'George.'

Just an observation. :)

And yet you didn't refer to Obama by his first name in your post.

Just an observation (:

ACK! You're right!

/I spittle on my monitor when I say Baraaaccckkk!

Thanks for the catch.

351 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:58:31pm

re: #349 Globular Cluster

So then I suppose we shouldn't be in Iraq or Afghanistan, because those countries have/will have secular Muslim governments.

That's a different situation. Those countries already existed, and the governments are being reformed. Kosovo is the establishment of an entirely new country.

352 Jfundie  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 4:59:12pm

re: #349 Globular Cluster

re: #335 Jfundie

re: #327 Globular Cluster

re: #295 Jfundie

re: #286 Globular Cluster

Israel was officially neutral on NATO-Serbia conflict. That was proposed by the late Minister of culture Rechavam Zeevi who was later assassinated by PFLP. (The last great Israeli politician IMO)

I believe Israel is also hesitating to recognize the independence of Kosovo. I find that troubling.

You are wrong unfortunatly. Israel has already recognized the Muslim drug dealing state.

There are no real men left in Israeli politics.

Hmmm. So then I suppose we shouldn't be in Iraq or Afghanistan, because those countries have/will have secular Muslim governments.

1. Afghanistan and Iraq are already existing states, turned to "good" (wishful thinking). Kosovo is a disputed terrirory led by KLA gangsters and drug dealers trained by Al Qaeda. Biiig difference there.

2. There is no such thing as a secular-muslim. Islam does not permit secularism on any level.

353 formercorpsman  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:00:10pm

re: #331 Killgore Trout

Can we start recommending deletion of comments denying Serbian war crimes?

Killgore, I have been playing catch up.

Who denied the war crimes?

354 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:00:19pm

Rational thoughts from Hot Air...

Kosovo’s independence


The Chechen wars have largely died down in the past couple of years, but Kosovo’s independence, if it succeeds and turns in a jihadist direction, may encourage what’s left of the Chechen jihad to renew its fight. There isn’t much left of that jihad; most of its former leaders are dead and the rest have chosen to side with Russia.
...
So where I come down on Kosovo’s independence is to hope for the best but be aware that it’s likely to encourage some of the world’s worst actors and jihadist revolutionaries to get on with their own separatist schemes.

355 lawhawk  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:00:19pm

re: #347 Colonel Panik

re: #327 Globular Cluster

I believe Israel is also hesitating to recognize the independence of Kosovo. I find that troubling.

They see it as bad precedent for what might happen with Samaria and Judea.

That is curious considering that the whole point of the peace process is to create a two-state solution - which in effect is yet another Muslim country in the territories vacated by Israel.

356 sarah  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:00:25pm

When I go and return from Albania I will tell you my tales of the people there.

357 GeorgetownPress  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:01:09pm

There would be a number of good reasons to accept the independence of Kosovo:

1) If there was a genocide (genocide is one of those things that makes it very difficult to live side-by-side in the same state)
2) If there was no national home for Albanians (ie an Albanian majority state with the right to self-determination)
3) If the de jure sovereign state was undemocratic and repressive

However:
1) There was no genocide, although there was an attempt at ethnic cleansing, it was done with surprisingly little violence. The massacres which did occur were two-way and occurred in the context of an insurgency and a counter-insurgency
2) Ethnic Albanians already have a national home and independent state that can provide them with a safe haven and champion their interests in the global community -- France
3) Serbia has been a free democracy for a number of years now and the extreme nationalists groups have been checked. Further, whereas Serbia is rated as "free" by Freedom House, Serbia's neighbors of Macedonia, Bosnia, and Albania only have a "partly free" rating. On a side note, unlike Serbia and the other aforementioned countries, Albanian does not have the excuse of having been engaged in destructive nationalistic wars to explain its failure to embrace liberal democracy.

There are a number of good reasons to
1) Serbia has shown incredible restrain and generosity
- They proposed a more-than-Hong-Kong-style form of autonomy -- Kosovo would have complete internal autonomy and significant diplomatic autonomy (ie the ability to join international organizations such as the WHO); with Serbia controlling defense, classical elements of foreign policy, and as a guarantor of the rights of minorities in Kosovo.
- They have stated that they will take no violent action to arrest the independence of Kosovo
- The resilience of Serbia to avoid the temptation of extreme nationalism is admirable given their situation of the foreign occupation and alien occupation of what they view as their symbolic cultural homeland.

Essentially, Serbia is being punished for its restrain and generosity. This is not a precedent we should be setting.

2) It gives license to every other secessionist movement to push its claim. For example, how can we resist the claims of an independence Iraqi Kurdistan when
1) There was ethnic cleansing and massacres aimed at localized genocide.
2) There is currently no national home for Kurds
3) Iraq considerably lacks liberal democratic credentials

This is a precedent that is exceedingly dangerous, and in truth probably a violation of international law (UNSC resolution 1244 which authorized the UN occupation of Kosovo clearly stated that Kosovo was to be autonomous, but unequivocally part of Serbia/Yugoslavia).

I need someone to explain to me why when there already exists a Serbian state and an Albanian state, that one is more justified in making Serbs (a very much persecuted minority in Kosovo) a 6-7% minority in a new Albanian majority state of dubious liberal-democractic credentials then maintaining Albanians as a 14-18% minority (with wide autonomy to boot) in a (liberal-democratic) Serbian-majority state.

It is an absolute shame when Putin can legitimately and objectively say to the West that the West is supporting an "illegal and immoral act".

What I am most curious to see is if the people who have loudly denounced other supposed American violations of international law will equally and strenously decry the violation of international law f the US recognizing an UDI Kosovo.

358 flyingcloud  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:01:36pm

Kosovo independence is bad news.
Now you have a Islamic state in Europe. Pity all the Serbian Christians in Kosovo, they now all have to get out of the country.

Now wider war in nearer. God saves decent people! Spengler at Asia Time talked about this a few month ago. Hope Russia will invade the country and annex it. We are all better off if it is in Russia's hand than in Islamofacists hands.

359 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:01:40pm

re: #356 sarah

When I go and return from Albania I will tell you my tales of the people there.

You're going? I would love to hear your report !

360 sarah  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:02:28pm

re: #359 mama winger

Yup, leaving in a month and spending 2 weeks there :)

361 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:02:43pm

re: #353 formercorpsman

Too many to point out. There are quite a few who will tell you that the Serbs were set up with faked evidence. Just wait.

362 Jfundie  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:02:47pm

re: #357 GeorgetownPress


2) If there was no national home for Albanians (ie an Albanian majority state with the right to self-determination)

What about ALBANIA?

363 lawhawk  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:03:39pm

re: #358 flyingcloud

It would create another Muslim state in Europe, or do you not count Turkey?

364 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:04:09pm

re: #362 Jfundie

re: #357 GeorgetownPress


2) If there was no national home for Albanians (ie an Albanian majority state with the right to self-determination)


What about ALBANIA?

Read thru again. That is what he is saying.

365 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:04:16pm

re: #359 mama winger

I was there as a kid. Great place with awesome food.

366 macintush  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:05:01pm

I been through Alabama a few times, but never Albania.

367 Jfundie  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:05:11pm

re: #364 mama winger

re: #362 Jfundie

re: #357 GeorgetownPress


2) If there was no national home for Albanians (ie an Albanian majority state with the right to self-determination)


What about ALBANIA?

Read thru again. That is what he is saying.

Sorry. Too bad i can't flag myself!

368 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:05:28pm

re: #365 Killgore Trout

re: #359 mama winger

I was there as a kid. Great place with awesome food.

Wow - I had always heard that Albania was pretty much closed to the Western world during the Cold War years . How did you get in?

You're a secret agent, aren't you?

369 grumpy old codger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:05:39pm

re: #321 Lucius Septimius
Guess Gibbons missed that one. Can you please clarify what you mean by federalism.
I can't see it in the Republic and under the emperors, it also seems to be lacking. Are you referring to the practice of offering Senate seats to rich provincials, as a means of incorporating provincial views?

370 NomadOfNorad  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:05:42pm

re: #300 Killian Bundy

re: #249 NomadOfNorad

Speaking of Bolton. WTF was up with the Donks trying to indict him or some such thing this past week?

House finds Bolten, Miers in contempt of Congress

The House voted Thursday to hold White House Chief of Staff Josh Bolten and former White House counsel Harriet Miers in contempt of Congress for refusing to testify before a panel investigating the firing of several United States attorneys.

Ahead of the vote, Republicans had walked out in an effort to show that they want to work on a permanent update to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) rather than be part of a “partisan fishing expedition,” as House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-Ohio) put it.

/different person

Ah. Well, I never saw it in print, just heard it in passing in some news sound-bites. Didn't know there was someone else out there with a sound-alike last name to Bolton. Hehe.

(And this slow-as-molasses-in-January typing is driving me batty.)

371 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:06:14pm

re: #366 macintush

I been through Alabama a few times, but never Albania.

alabama is the same, only with more banjo

372 David IV of Georgia  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:07:22pm

re: #348 mama winger

re: #340 David IV of Georgia

His remains were hidden from the Nazis. I missed his funeral in Rila Monastir by one week.
wow - you were in Bulgaria ?

I got to see the last major gasp of the Warsaw Pact communists before they began to fade into the night.

373 grumpy old codger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:07:35pm

re: #366 macintush
Different accents

374 macintush  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:08:13pm

re: #371 mama winger

re: #366 macintush

I been through Alabama a few times, but never Albania.

alabama is the same, only with more banjo

True about banjos. I also suspect there are cultural similarities, as I have a hard time understanding Alabamans w/o a translator.

375 Roger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:08:20pm

Saying there are moderate islamists out there who do not endorse the barbarism of Mohammed is like saying there are brick layers out there who don't lay bricks.

376 kevin the ox  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:08:24pm

#339 Globular Cluster:
Kevin, there is much in your post that requires proof/links/evidence.

Indeed, this is true. But my memory is exceedingly good, lasting beyond the two week limit of most of my fellow Americans.

The information exists, and here's a sample. If someone is interested in the truth, they can look for it. It's not my job, simply my comment, from my memory. But you'll see a marked difference in reporting on Kosovo betwee before/during Slick Willy's War, and after it, when the truth of the situation became apparent.

Aren't you curious about irrumator? Here's a hint: a fellator is the other participant, or in Clinton's case, a fellatrix, to be precise.

377 Cognito  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:08:38pm

re: #53 Killgore Trout

Many people here seem to be unaware that neighboring Albania is a peaceful Muslim country and probably one of the most pro-America countries in Europe.

Right on. I'm amazed how many people here have a knee-jerk reaction against Kosovo just because it's majority Muslim. Nevermind that its people are pouring into the streets waving American flags and chanting about democracy.

And nevermind that their main opponent is shaping up to be a ruthless and domineering czar who bears no love for either America or democracy.

We've poured whole oceans of blood and money into an effort to establish an independent democracy within a Muslim populace. And I think a few commenters here have such narrow vision they can't see that this situation is -- at the very least -- complicated, and that the Muslim side is very possibly the good side.

378 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:08:57pm

re: #372 David IV of Georgia

re: #348 mama winger

re: #340 David IV of Georgia

His remains were hidden from the Nazis. I missed his funeral in Rila Monastir by one week.

wow - you were in Bulgaria ?

I got to see the last major gasp of the Warsaw Pact communists before they began to fade into the night.

Wow. You were there when History happened. Cool

379 saberry0530  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:09:19pm

re: #371 mama winger

re: #366 macintush

I been through Alabama a few times, but never Albania.

alabama is the same, only with more banjo

and not so many DIxie flags..

380 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:10:20pm

re: #368 mama winger

I guess it wasn't behind the Iron Curtain. It was about '79 and we entered though norther Greece with diplomatic passports. I never really though it was a big deal but in hindsight I'm surprised they let us in.

381 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:10:21pm

banjo music

for the sophisticated hillbilly

382 Roger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:10:39pm

re: #361 Killgore Trout

Well start with one...

383 macintush  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:10:54pm

Flew to Mussel Shoals airport in Alabama on my student long cc flight years ago.

384 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:12:10pm

re: #377 Cognito

We've poured whole oceans of blood and money into an effort to establish an independent democracy within a Muslim populace.

Why?

385 macintush  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:12:28pm

re: #381 mama winger

banjo music

for the sophisticated hillbilly

Ya, they didn't tape that in Alabama, I see microphones.

386 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:12:37pm
387 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:12:50pm

re: #382 Roger

#323, there are plenty more.

388 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:13:01pm

re: #341 mama winger

re: #324 AuldTrafford

re: #322 mama winger

Next, she'll wanna get her a huntin' license.

Here's a pantsuit I bet she doesn't have.

I prefer this sort of pantsuit.

389 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:13:07pm

re: #385 macintush

I dun tol' ya it was serfisticated!

390 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:14:36pm

re: #388 Lucius Septimius

On Hillary! LOL! I'd rather see her in this.

391 macintush  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:14:38pm

re: #389 mama winger

And to think that for the longest time, I thought Steve Martin was a jerk!

392 formercorpsman  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:14:42pm

re: #361 Killgore Trout

I'm not being contrary Killgore, and I won't go as far as saying we set things up, but starting with the Bosnia conflict in 1995, it was something I was unaware of with any real understanding.

What I can say, is there are many things we do not know, and that conflict was/has not been heavily sided towards one or the other.

What was always interesting to me, especially after getting out out in 1993, was why if there was so much ethnic cleansing, why we did not put boots on the ground. I remember our bombing campaign, and seeing video of our drops go into to enemy hands. I remember having discussions about this back then with some friends who were still in, and the reason for concern is this place is historically a powder keg.

What nobody can deny, is that our actions prepped the ground for Saudi billions to go in and influence the area, while we let Rwanda become a much bigger atrocity, with an exponential number of more dead.

I still try to get more insight about this, but I have come in contact with quite a few folks from the Balkans, and they have very strong opinions about our involvement there. Often times, it is the confusion of why a country like ours allowed for the wahabbists to get a foothold in that area after having the Ottomans dealt with earlier on.

393 Cognito  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:15:07pm

re: #384 mama winger

re: #377 Cognito

We've poured whole oceans of blood and money into an effort to establish an independent democracy within a Muslim populace.

Why?

Why promote democracy in a land of oppression?

394 Spiny Norman  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:15:08pm

re: #309 ciaospirit

re: #274 Spiny Norman
Besides all that fog, it restarted the Cold War with the Russians. Nice little star on Clinton's resume, wouldn't you say?
And how many LLL anti-war marches did we see condemning Clinton's actions?

Not a one that I can recall.

395 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:15:29pm

re: #377 Cognito

As I'm reading more about it I think there are going to be repercussion. The Serbs might go apeshit again, this may inspire the Chechens to step up their campaign, etc. But I think sharia law and exporting terrorists is unlikely. We'll see.

396 GeorgetownPress  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:15:33pm

re: #357 GeorgetownPress

Whoops,

"France" should have instead read "Albania"

Interesting that I would make that slip.

397 Roger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:15:33pm

re: #387 Killgore Trout

You're saying you know how that #323 is 100% false?

398 Piltdown Man  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:16:06pm

re: #323 kevin the ox

All lizards should be figuratively stomping on any fellow lizard who denies or minimizes the atrocities committed by Serbia against the Kosovars.

The facts are that these killings were committed, that the Serbians attempted to cover them up by emptying the mass graves during the war and dumping the bodies in central Serbia, that Serbia has admitted these facts, that in the last seven years Serbia has agonizingly slowly identified and returned many of the corpses to Kosovo, and that Serb civilians were also killed by the KLA but not as many.

These are facts and denying them has the same effect on any argument you make for or against Kosovo independence as carrying pictures of Chairman Mao -- you ain't gonna make it with anyone anyhow.

399 EC Marm  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:16:11pm

re: #386 ploome hineni
Yes, but Killgore has seared, I say seared into his memory the image of an American flag being waved. I could hook him up with hundreds of images of Iranians waving American and Israeli flags. Moments before they douse them in lighter fluid and torch them.
KT also seems to be on the opposite side of the issue from John Bolton. Strange times.

400 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:16:26pm

re: #393 Cognito

re: #384 mama winger

re: #377 Cognito

We've poured whole oceans of blood and money into an effort to establish an independent democracy within a Muslim populace.

Why?

Why promote democracy in a land of oppression?

Why did we pour oceans of blood and money into securing an independent Kosovo?

401 Globular Cluster  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:16:43pm

re: #357 GeorgetownPress

You know, it really is amazing that this conflict has gone on for so long and yet nobody seems to really know what the hell happened. Who did what to whom, where, and when? Bias clouds the issue on all sides, and I am left with Wikipedia, which is often part of the problem. I would be nice if people here, one side or the other, offered proof.

402 Ma Sands  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:17:13pm

re: #354 Killgore Trout

From your Hot Air link:

"So where I come down on Kosovo’s independence is to hope for the best but be aware that it’s likely to encourage some of the world’s worst actors and jihadist revolutionaries to get on with their own separatist schemes."


Well, that's half of what you said... :)

403 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:17:20pm

re: #392 formercorpsman

What was always interesting to me, especially after getting out out in 1993, was why if there was so much ethnic cleansing, why we did not put boots on the ground.


Because Clinton was a wimp. He let the Europeans do the groundwork because he didn't have the stomach for boots on the ground (see: Somalia)

404 swamprat  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:17:44pm

re: #371 mama winger

re: #366 macintush


I been through Alabama a few times, but never Albania.

alabama is the same, only with more banjo


exact same dentistry

405 Cognito  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:17:56pm

re: #395 Killgore Trout

re: #377 Cognito

As I'm reading more about it I think there are going to be repercussion. The Serbs might go apeshit again, this may inspire the Chechens to step up their campaign, etc. But I think sharia law and exporting terrorists is unlikely. We'll see.

The reaction/re-reaction is possible. The Chechens are entirely unpredictable. But you can't shy away from democracy in fear of other repercussions, I don't think. Otherwise it would never happen, anywhere.

406 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:17:57pm

re: #369 grumpy old codger

re: #321 Lucius Septimius
Guess Gibbons missed that one. Can you please clarify what you mean by federalism.
I can't see it in the Republic and under the emperors, it also seems to be lacking. Are you referring to the practice of offering Senate seats to rich provincials, as a means of incorporating provincial views?

No, I'm thinking about the fact that the cities and provinces were effectively self governing under the Republic and the early Empire (the situation changes later). Local elites would be coopted, but the price was willingness to accept Roman citizenship, learn Latin, and embrace at least superficially Roman culture.

In the developed parts of the Empire -- Italy, Greece, and the Mediterranean basin -- the Romans rarely had to deal with issues of local government -- they left it in the hands of the locals who'd be running things all along (so long as they remained loyal).

The issue is that the empire claimed extensive powers, but 99% of the time had no way to enforce their decree -- federalism was the practical result, even though it was not how they envisioned the manner of government.

407 macintush  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:18:13pm

re: #400 mama winger

re: #393 Cognito

re: #384 mama winger

re: #377 Cognito

We've poured whole oceans of blood and money into an effort to establish an independent democracy within a Muslim populace.

Why?

Why promote democracy in a land of oppression?

Why did we pour oceans of blood and money into securing an independent Kosovo?

Why are we still sending oceans of money to Egypt?

408 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:18:56pm
409 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:19:20pm

re: #399 EC Marm


KT also seems to be on the opposite side of the issue from John Bolton. Strange times.


I was never really a Bolton fan. I campaigned against him for the Fallacci award last year. I forget who I was rooting for.

410 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:19:24pm

re: #390 mama winger

re: #388 Lucius Septimius

On Hillary! LOL! I'd rather see her in this.

Too true.

Still, for now I'm going to close my eyes for a while and dream of Emma Peel.

411 Cognito  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:19:48pm

re: #400 mama winger

re: #393 Cognito

re: #384 mama winger

re: #377 Cognito

We've poured whole oceans of blood and money into an effort to establish an independent democracy within a Muslim populace.

Why?

Why promote democracy in a land of oppression?

Why did we pour oceans of blood and money into securing an independent Kosovo?

I think we might be talkin' past each other -- I was referring generally to our efforts in recent years to bring about democracy in Muslim countries. And in Kosovo it seems to be happening organically.

412 flyingcloud  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:20:02pm

[Link: emperors-clothes.com...]
Check out the above site about details of Kosovo war. You will find a lengthy report by Sebia government to the UN.
Aparently Albania Muslims have been killing their Christians neighbours when they are having their wedding, their religious feasts and asleep at night. It is quite chilling to read the accounts of people being killed by their neighbours of many years, that they recogonize their killers' voice in darkness.

The so called Srebrenica massacre is a lie like the Massacre of Jenin.

413 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:20:16pm

re: #405 Cognito

But you can't shy away from democracy in fear of other repercussions, I don't think. Otherwise it would never happen, anywhere.

Basically it seems to me that Kosovo seceeded from a country apparently contrary to international law. Is that okay ?

Why can't Massachusetts do the same thing? (I should be so lucky)

414 Highrise  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:20:21pm

re: #401 Globular Cluster

re: #357 GeorgetownPress

You know, it really is amazing that this conflict has gone on for so long and yet nobody seems to really know what the hell happened. Who did what to whom, where, and when? Bias clouds the issue on all sides, and I am left with Wikipedia, which is often part of the problem. I would be nice if people here, one side or the other, offered proof.

/agreed. There are a number of times that I've tried to read up on this and there is much confusion. It is hard to discern stuff when it's been so bloody for so long.

415 sultan_knish  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:20:31pm

Bottom line, Serbia is still closely tied to Russia but an independent Kosovo would be a terrorist and organized crime staging ground... even more than it is today

the implosion of Yugoslavia has created the equivalent of Lebanon in Europe and an independent Kosovo would be the equivalent of giving Hizbollah its own state

I am not a fan of the Serbs but there is no question that the claims of genocide were a lie and promoted by the Clinton administration to intervene on the Muslim side. That intervention helped bring down Yeltsin and gave us Putin, a bloody price that Clinton's admirers have never acknowledged.

An independent Kosovo means moving the Jihad deeper into Europe, it means a safe base for terrorism that we will not be able to rescind because once you create a country, it's damn hard to uncreate it again, all you can do is bomb it.

You don't have to support the Serbs to find the idea of a Kosovar state to be a disaster in the making and these folks have exhausted all my "Let's give them a chance" cards.

Regardless of whether an independent Kosovo is recognized, the violence is going to continue, but giving them a recognized state will make it that much worse.

416 Shaky Louie  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:20:33pm

OT
'Afternoon, Lizards... I'm watching Blackhawk Down for the first time.
Holy crap! What a firefight!
I salute, once again, our fighting men!
Just needed to say that.
Back to you.

417 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:21:03pm
418 ciaospirit  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:21:39pm

re: #398 Piltdown Man

re: #323 kevin the ox

All lizards should be figuratively stomping on any fellow lizard who denies or minimizes the atrocities committed by Serbia against the Kosovars.

The facts are that these killings were committed, that the Serbians attempted to cover them up by emptying the mass graves during the war and dumping the bodies in central Serbia, that Serbia has admitted these facts, that in the last seven years Serbia has agonizingly slowly identified and returned many of the corpses to Kosovo, and that Serb civilians were also killed by the KLA but not as many.

These are facts and denying them has the same effect on any argument you make for or against Kosovo independence as carrying pictures of Chairman Mao -- you ain't gonna make it with anyone anyhow.

Links?

419 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:21:45pm

re: #402 Ma Sands

I agree with that sentiment. It's a possibility but I think that the Umah is already trying as hard as they can. If we anger them or encourage them doesn't really make much of a difference. They ones who want to wage jihad will do so without encouragement.

420 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:22:29pm

re: #411 Cognito

I was referring generally to our efforts in recent years to bring about democracy in Muslim countries.

Oh. Gotcha.

There is a very very good post somewhere above.

Number 357. What do you think of his points?

421 Geepers  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:22:44pm

macintush (#487),

Why are we still sending oceans of money to Egypt?

Oceans?

Americans spent 18 billion on Valentine Day gifts this year.

422 Cognito  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:22:45pm

re: #413 mama winger

re: #405 Cognito

But you can't shy away from democracy in fear of other repercussions, I don't think. Otherwise it would never happen, anywhere.

Basically it seems to me that Kosovo seceeded from a country apparently contrary to international law. Is that okay ?

Why can't Massachusetts do the same thing? (I should be so lucky)

I can think of at least one other secession that probably wouldn't have measured up to current international law...

423 Arkay  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:22:50pm

re: #229 Arkay

Yeah, that was 65 years ago.

So it means nothing?
>>

Since they themselves committed genocide practically last week?

For all intents and purposes -- yes. It means nothing--by which I mean that the Serbs can't claim moral superiority over their neighbors when they are morally indistinguishable from the neighbors who harmed them half a century earleir.

Look, I was a peacekeeper in Bosnia for years. I have no illusions about extermination ist Serb policies in so-called "jannisary-dominated" (read: Muslim) areas. They didn't even call the Muslims "Islamist" in their propaganda until after 9/11--which they cheered in the streets in Serb dominated areas in Bosnia, combining anti-American glee with "I-toldja-so-ism".

I was there. I saw it.

The Serbs are not our friends. Not all Muslims are our enemies. And 99.9% of the Muslims of the former Yugoslavia are about as Islamist as, oh, Mexico.

424 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:22:57pm
The European Union and NATO, mindful of the Balkans' turbulent past, appealed for restraint and warned that the international community would not tolerate violence.

I'd like to take this opportunity to thank the Turks.

425 lawhawk  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:24:36pm

Not nearly OT:

I find it interesting the kind of discussion going on in here about Kosovo and possible implications for the former Yugoslavia and Europe in general. Daily Kos merely had a passing link (though they are spending more time on FISA and its expiration).

426 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:24:37pm
427 laZardo  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:24:48pm

re: #403 Killgore Trout

Also see: Rwanda.

But I'm digressing. Putin's gonna be pissed, and for some reason I've half jokingly said that if Russia wanted its empire back, Kosovo would be a good starting point.

428 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:25:51pm
429 Ma Sands  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:25:52pm

re: #408 song_and_dance_man

Me also --I have not studied as hard as I have been for the last two hours, in YEARS! I am S P A C E D ... O U T !


:) love it!

430 Spiny Norman  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:26:13pm

re: #423 Arkay

My ex-girlfriend's brother was a peacekeeper in Kosovo (near the border with Macedonia) on 9/11 and KLA supporters were cheering. Not all Kosovo Muslim are our friends, either.

431 EC Marm  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:26:40pm

re: #413 mama winger

Basically it seems to me that Kosovo seceeded from a country apparently contrary to international law. Is that okay ?

Why can't Massachusetts do the same thing? (I should be so lucky)


Why are you picking on the new England states tonight?

As far as your first sentence, I think that these events today are possibly setting the groundwork/precedent for the 'Islamic Republic of Paris' to eventually succeed from France.

432 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:26:48pm

re: #426 ploome hineni

Hiya ploome.

You know, I follow politics and news pretty closely, and I can't for the life of me remember the Clinton Administration laying out the case for our actions in Kosovo. Did I miss it?

433 sultan_knish  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:27:06pm

The Muslim role in Yugoslavia was the same exact role as in Thailand or Kashmir or the Philippines or Lebanon or ANYWHERE else in the world where a Muslim minority tries to gain power

The Serbs were not angels, but the same people shrieking that they were committing genocide were the same people who were all too willing to ignore the numerous atrocities committed by Muslims and the fact that this was another independence/supremacy conflict by a Muslim minority

There's no doubt that there were war crimes committed on the Serbian side, just as there were war crimes committed on the Christian side in Lebanon. But that has to be balanced out by the context of the Muslim atrocities that had been committed against them.

After Clinton, the Muslim ethnic cleansing of Christians in Kosovo has taken off, in the same way that Muslim ethnic cleansing of Buddhists in Thailand or Christians in Gaza has taken off. And that is the real crime and the real atrocity that should be discussed, not the Amnesty International and UN nonsense that treats the whole thing as Christian violence against Muslims

434 jimbob21  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:27:28pm

Jared Israel, Francisco Gil White, and Petar Makara are a few of the only truthtellers on this issue. THE SERBS ARE NOT EVIL! They died with the Jews in WWII, saved US paratroopers, and fought back against the Nazis. They are lied about, just as the Jews (eg. Israel) are lied about.

When you learn the truth, you'll see that the republicans are no better than the democrats.

435 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:27:35pm

re: #431 EC Marm

Why are you picking on the new England states tonight?

Because it's so easy.

:p

436 sultan_knish  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:29:14pm

re: #432 mama winger

re: #426 ploome hineni

Hiya ploome.

You know, I follow politics and news pretty closely, and I can't for the life of me remember the Clinton Administration laying out the case for our actions in Kosovo. Did I miss it?

short version, they put on a full court press claiming that it was just like the Holocaust (it wasn't)

meanwhile they went on ignoring Rwanda, for which a case could be made that it was like the Holocaust

437 mjazzguitar  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:29:49pm

re: #417 ploome hineni You think there were massacres in Jenin?

438 Roger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:30:50pm

There is no doubt in my mind that Clinton picked the wrong side simply by picking a side.

439 jimbob21  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:31:09pm

re: #434 jimbob21

I'll add that if one reads Milosevic's speech in 1989 at Kosovo field, or studies the Hague tribunal, one will see just how much the Western media lied about the Serbs: they did not call for ethnic cleansing, they did not commit genocide, they never called for 'greater Serbia'. There were no Serb-run concentration or rape camps.

Some Serbs committed war crimes (just as Americans and other civilized people have done), but these soldiers were tried by the Serbian government (in Belgrade). 'War crimes' was the official way the Muslims (trained by the CIA and our Arab allies) fought. Read about Naser Orec and get back to me on 'Serbian atrocities'.

440 Cognito  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:31:25pm

re: #420 mama winger

re: #411 Cognito

I was referring generally to our efforts in recent years to bring about democracy in Muslim countries.

Oh. Gotcha.

There is a very very good post somewhere above.

Number 357. What do you think of his points?

That's a very, very good post. He or she clearly knows the situation much better than I do, with a firmer grasp of international law and precedent.

I will say, though, that Serbia hasn't always shown the "incredible restraint and generosity" that GeorgetownPress mentions. Just the opposite, before NATO's troops settled in for a long babysit. That's why The Hague is packed with Serbian war criminals.

That, coupled with Kosovo's apparent embrace of America and democratic values, makes me inclined to at least hear them out, instead of simply saying, "Down with the Muslim side."

441 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:31:32pm
442 eclectic infidel  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:31:36pm

re: #13 annar

There is a minority of Muslims there called the Gorani, who reside in the southernmost region of Kosovo (Draga%u0161). There's too few of them to pose any threat to the new republic.

443 Arkay  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:32:09pm

I am not a fan of the Serbs but there is no question that the claims of genocide were a lie and promoted by the Clinton administration to intervene on the Muslim side. >>

Not so. Serb ethnic cleansing was real. 14000 sniper and artillery dead in the seige of Sarajevo were real. And Srebrenica was very, very, very real.

Give this a read. It's accurate.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

444 Arbalest  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:32:11pm

The peoples in the Balkans have long memories. I think that everyone in the area remembers the 400 years or so of Muslim Turkish rule. The various WW2 events are not quite as old, and the events of the 1990s are fresh in the minds of many.

But to some degree, all these things have been overtaken by events; today Kosovo is 90% Muslim and independent.

I think that Europe needs to see how a newly-formed effectively westernized Muslim-majority nation governs itself and treats its minorities. If Europe is lucky, there will be a return to peace. I doubt this, strongly. #105 Piltdown Man and #225 el Matamoros seem substantially right.

Just how pro-American are the Albanians and the Kosovars? What about 10 or 20 years from now, when the fruits of the Saudi efforts and presence / influence of foreign fighters ripen? How will their neighbors and the rest of Europe be affected?

I think that the Albanians and Kosovars will be radicalized, and there will be fighting. The people of the region are literate, culturally mostly Western and used to Western ideas and customs, but I think that the Muslims gaining control cannot form a satisfactory civilization, run an economy (not a narco-economy) and leave their neighbors in peace.

I think that the independence of Kosovo from Serbia is probably in the Serb’s best interest. At least with an independent Kosovo, Serbia, Greece and maybe Macedonia can simply close the border, and maybe turn it into a DMZ.

I think the rest of Europe will be unable to hide behind one or more DMZs.

445 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:32:22pm

re: #436 sultan_knish

What do you think propelled the Clinton administration to support this particular side? Any thoughts?

446 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:32:28pm
447 El matamoros  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:32:30pm

Unbelivable! NOw FOX news is starting in with the propaganda with that chump Geraldo Rivera telling total lies. a completely one sided narrative.
I guess the MSM is gearing up the US audience mentally for when we are expected to kill Christians to give Muslims more land. yea! Oh of course he explictly mentions they are "moderate muslims". So were the Chechens in 1990.

Oh PS- they celebrated their independence in times square. So, were they waving "kosova" flags? No, they were waving Albanian flags. It would be as if during American independence instead of waving the new US flag we were waving the Chinese flag. "greater Albania" has just become a reality.
Thanks to western gullability. The question is what will the Serbs move be? the ball is in their court.

448 formercorpsman  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:32:50pm

re: #403 Killgore Trout

Killgore, you don't have to tell me.

I admit up front, with no pre-conceived notion, I am still learning all of the idiosyncrasies of the Balkans.

Just as you have had your experience, my last discussion was with a young Albanian who waited our table at a restaurant about a month ago.

One point he tried to get me to understand, was the muslims who were there before the conflict in the 90's, were actually at relative peace with the orthodox who lived with them.

The Saudis have replaced the moderate imams with their brand.

What nobody has been able to explain to me with any degree of certainty, is how our efforts in the 90's produced a desirable result.

We have just as much to worry about with the blond haired-blue eyed jihadist ginned up by wahabbi petro-currency as we do the olive skinned radical who is torching the embassies in Islamabad.

It is a contradiction of sorts.

449 sultan_knish  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:33:44pm

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]


A United Nations court has ruled that Serbian troops did not carry out genocide against ethnic Albanians during Slobodan Milosevic's campaign of aggression in Kosovo from 1998 to 1999.

The controversial ruling by the UN-supervised Supreme Court in the Kosovan capital, Pristina, has angered Albanians, and some UN officials are reported to be preparing to challenge it.

The decision comes as authorities in Serbia begin the excavation of another mass grave believed to contain the bodies of around 50 Kosovar Albanians. Four graves have already been investigated, revealing the remains of 340 victims.

Crimes against humanity and war crimes did take place, it said, but "the exactions committed by Milosevic's regime cannot be qualified as criminal acts of genocide, since their purpose was not the destruction of the Albanian ethnic group... but its forceful departure from Kosovo".

The court, which is comprised of two international judges and one Albanian, was ruling on the case of a Serb, Miroslav Vuckovic, convicted of genocide by a district court in Mitrovica.

450 Arkay  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:34:07pm

they did not call for ethnic cleansing, they did not commit genocide, they never called for 'greater Serbia'. There were no Serb-run concentration or rape camps.>>

Absolutely untrue on all counts. They did precisely 100% of the above.

451 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:34:42pm
452 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:34:44pm

re: #446 ploome hineni

I think if someone farts, the muslims scream massacre, and immideately 100s of pictures of lamenting hags appear

I'd like to buy that lady a drink.

453 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:35:19pm
454 David IV of Georgia  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:35:39pm

The closest I've been to Albania is Macedonia.

Albanian Muslims and Christians knew little about their own beliefs after the total repression of the communist regime there. Greek Orthodox found it incredibly easy to convince Muslims there to convert to Christianity. From what friends have told me who have been in Albania, most problems with Albanians have been caused by outsiders.

Many of the people of Eastern Europe resent the oppressive regimes forced on them by Moscow. Many of these same people have some goodwill for America simply because we have been the enemy of their oppressor.

455 BulgarWheat  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:36:00pm

I'll say a prayer for my Croatian friends tonight. I'm hoping the coming problems don't spill over to there.

My Croatian colleague wants to become the "Donald Trump" of Croatia. I hope that Mislav makes it.

456 Piltdown Man  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:36:11pm

re: #417 ploome hineni

Thank you for the link regarding whether or not the clearly established Srebrenica massacre (which unlike Jenin actually took place) was ordered from Belgrade or not. But what does that have to do with the fact that Serbia has admitted to killing civilians in Kosovo and then attempting to cover up by transporting the bodies to dumping grounds in central Serbia? If those killings weren't ordered by Belgrade, it would be strange for Serbia to take the trouble to transport the bodies in refrigerated trucks and try to hide them and then admit it later and then identify the bodies from DNA and return the bodies.

457 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:36:45pm
458 jimbob21  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:36:46pm

re: #39 PeaceBeUponHim

In this Edward Herman article: [Link: www.monthlyreview.org...]

He refers to Hague testimony whereby it became clear that the Serbs were cleansing no Muslims or Croats from Serbia proper, and thus it was entirely preposterous that they were cleansing these people outside of Serbia. Identical accusations are made against Israel--yet somehow the fact that the Palestinian population is growing like wildfire does not seem to matter.

Herman is a Jew-hating propagandist, but he does tell the truth on Yugoslavia.

459 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:37:05pm

re: #439 jimbob21

There were no Serb-run concentration or rape camps.


Really? you should learn to google and watch the videos.

460 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:37:06pm

re: #454 David IV of Georgia

Are you involved with the work of the Orthodox Church there?

461 kevin the ox  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:37:31pm

#398 Piltdown Man: Yes, facts can be messy. Though a blog comment is not a dissertation, it is also not for fabrication. Nothing I wrote was a lie. There was the transportation of bodies you mention, but it was by no means universal. There were lies told on the Albanian side to get what they wanted, and the wholesale genocide their tales told simply did not occur, even though war crimes did. But genocide did not. The Albanians have used violence and intimidation throughout the postwar period to ensure there are fewer and fewer native Kosovari, Serbs, left to interfere with their plans. So, now Kosovo becomes Muslim again, perhaps for longer this time as the native population is now nearly gone, and it seems that way too many people all over the world are on the side of the conquerors, the new Turks.

Ah, I should clarify: I'm Eastern Orthodox. It lends a different perspective.

462 sultan_knish  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:37:41pm

re: #445 mama winger

re: #436 sultan_knish

What do you think propelled the Clinton administration to support this particular side? Any thoughts?

Picking the Muslim side was safer politically and some European allies, particularly Germany were pushing for the intervention and domestic human rights people had joined the chorus. The Europeans likely wanted to appease their own Muslim minorities while giving Russia in the teeth while it was week and the "humanitarians" always take the Muslim side.

Plus the Saudis had their hands in it and it's unknown what kind of incentives they had to bring to the table, but they have put a whole lot of money down for the Clintons after they left office.

463 bombirannow[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:38:10pm
464 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:38:31pm

re: #457 ploome hineni

What is it with the conspiracy theories tonight? Is it a full moon or something?

465 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:38:34pm

re: #462 sultan_knish

The Europeans likely wanted to appease their own Muslim minorities while giving Russia in the teeth while it was week and the "humanitarians" always take the Muslim side.

Makes sense to me. thanks.

466 sultan_knish  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:38:59pm

re: #459 Killgore Trout

re: #439 jimbob21

There were no Serb-run concentration or rape camps.


Really? you should learn to google and watch the videos.

ah google videos, it's where I found out the Freemasons were behind 9/11 and HAARP controls the weather

467 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:39:01pm

re: #451 buzzsawmonkey

I, Theseus, am lost in the Labyrinth of spinoff links.

And my computer is not a mini-tower.

Remember to seduce the king's daughter, get some thread from her, then leave her on Naxos on the return run. Usually helps.

Oh, and don't forget to haul down the black sail, dude.

468 Piltdown Man  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:39:20pm

re: #418 ciaospirit

Since I was responding to a post without links, I didn't think it was incumbent on me to produce links of my own. But here is the first one I came across:

[Link: www.signonsandiego.com...]

BELGRADE – Serbia made final preparations on Thursday to hand over the remains of 64 Kosovo Albanians murdered during the 1999 war, in the biggest single return of bodies found in mass graves near Belgrade four years ago.

The corpses of more than 800 Kosovo Albanians were secretly transported 350 km (220 miles) north to Serbia in freezer trucks during the conflict and buried in three sites, in an attempt by Serb forces to conceal atrocities in Kosovo.

Advertisement Friday's handover will bring to nearly 500 the number who have been returned to their families in Kosovo. But another 340 are still awaiting identification.

'Identification is a very complex process. We depend on DNA analysis because the bodies are in such a state that a classic form of identification would not give results,' said Gvozden Gagic of the Serb commission for missing persons.

The mass graves were found in 2001 by reformers who ousted former autocrat Slobodan Milosevic, now standing trial in The Hague for war crimes in Kosovo, Bosnia and Croatia.

Since their exhumation the bodies have been kept in old tunnels in a hill overlooking the Danube, near the police compound in Batajnica where the biggest burial site was found.

The 64 corpses to be handed over on Friday lay in white body bags outside the white-washed tunnels.

Bags with the remains of those yet to be identified lay piled on top of each other inside the tunnels, which used to be used to grow mushrooms.

FAR TOO SLOW, SAYS KOSOVO

Kosovo Albanians have repeatedly criticised Serbia for the delay in returning the dead. The United Nations has also accused Belgrade of being too slow, prolonging the agony of families of the missing.

Belgrade has said the process cannot go any faster. Gagic said he hoped the remaining bodies would be identified and returned by the end of this year or early next.

Arsin Grjaliu, a Kosovo forensics expert, said 80 percent of the victims handed over so far had been shot dead. The cause of death could not be determined for the others, he said.

Djordje Alimpijevic, a Serb medical examiner involved in the exhumation, said almost all were men and all had been wearing civilian clothes. There were fewer than ten women, and no children.

About 3,000 people are still missing from the 1998-99 conflict. Most are ethnic Albanians but some 500 Serbs are also missing, believed to have been killed by the rebels.

Two mass graves with the bodies of Serb civilians were unearthed in Kosovo earlier this month.

Kosovo became a United Nations protectorate in 1999 after NATO bombing expelled Serb forces, accused of indiscriminate use of force during their crackdown on Kosovo Albanian rebels.

469 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:39:21pm

re: #462 sultan_knish

Plus the Saudis had their hands in it and it's unknown what kind of incentives they had to bring to the table, but they have put a whole lot of money down for the Clintons after they left office.

In all fairness- the clintons will take money from anybody for anything.

470 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:39:30pm

re: #463 bombirannow

Wow.

471 chubby vegan  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:39:47pm

Why would anyone in their right mind want to be POTUS.

472 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:39:53pm

I just want to say I am glad for EVERYONE'S input here tonight. I need educatin'. thanks

473 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:39:56pm

re: #466 sultan_knish

Silly YouTube. It was the Rosicrucians and Bilderbergers. Everyone knows that. Sheesh ...

474 OldLineTexan  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:40:06pm

re: #421 Geepers

macintush (#487),

Why are we still sending oceans of money to Egypt?

Oceans?

Americans spent 18 billion on Valentine Day gifts this year.

It may be reprehensible, but in the end people do with their money what they will, and can make their own mistakes. Personally, I spent $ 0.00, so eighteen billion dollars of foolishness affected me not at all.

Unlike the FedGov, who takes it from you and then does as they damned well please. Don't like aid to Egypt? Tough. Don't like aid to Israel? Tough. That does affect me.

475 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:40:22pm

re: #469 Sharmuta

Yep, that's pretty much it.

476 bombirannow[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:40:28pm
477 jimbob21  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:40:35pm

re: #450 Arkay

Provide a quote from Slobo calling for greater Serbia. You can't, and that is because you are a liar. One need only read the words of Tudjman or Izetbegovic to realize that they were the ones calling for ethnically clean states.

[Link: www.srpska-mreza.com...]
[Link: www.srpska-mreza.com...]

478 ciaospirit  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:40:41pm

Ploome is posting all kinds of links. Can everyone please do the same? Assertions should be supported by links or other resources.

479 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:40:50pm

re: #471 chubby vegan

Why would anyone in their right mind want to be POTUS.

Money for nothin' and chicks for free?

480 Cognito  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:41:05pm

I'm pretty well blown away by some of the things I'm reading here.

I suppose the proper litmus test, here, would be a short question: Can you conceive the possibility, ever, that a Muslim populace could be oppressed, and then rightfully secede?

If the answer is yes, the thing we have to do is figure out whether Kosovo fits those criteria.

If the answer is no, then there's little point going forward in the discussion.

481 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:41:20pm
482 akak  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:41:33pm

Bush 1 Iraq
Clinton 1 Kosovo
Bush 2 Iraq
Clinton 2 Kosovo
Jeb ?

483 sultan_knish  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:41:53pm
http:// worldnetdaily.com/

WASHINGTON – United Nations forces moved into Kosovo in 1999 to "stop genocide." But, according to a blistering new report from the American Council for Kosovo, U.N. troops have aided and abetted the deliberate, systematic and nearly complete ethnic cleansing of the mostly Christian Serb population by mostly Muslim ethnic Albanians. "Every facet of the way of life of the Serbs of Kosovo is threatened by the new reality established since June 1999 under KFOR (the NATO Kosovo Force) and the U.N. and therefore the very existence of the Serbs there is threatened," says the report "Hiding Genocide in Kosovo."

"All kinds of persecution using all types of methods have been adopted," the report says.

"Throughout the territory of Kosovo, the Serbs have been persecuted, a persecution that is happening on their own territory, in their own country. They are denied basic human rights and are not equal to their Muslim counterparts under the law. Even though the Serbs were the main targets, they were not the only ones. Consider the situation of the Croats who now number less than 500, or the Roma who have been banished to the edges of the Serb enclaves by persistent terrorization, or the Gorani, Slavic Muslims, who reside in the south west tip of Kosovo in the mountains and whose numbers dwindle every year."

Today, the tiny Serb remnants are composed mainly of elderly and infirm simply incapable of moving. Still, the carnage continues, right under the noses of U.N. KFOR authorities. In Cernica, 45 Serb homes have been destroyed since the war ended in 1999. Since the middle of 2003, 12 Serbs have been killed, with no one being charged for the crimes. Often, says the report, acts of violence against Serbs result in the arrest or detention of the victims.

At the ruins of Holy Archangels Monastery near Prizren, an Albanian mob left their messages: "Death to Serbs" and "Down with UNMIK" – the U.N. police who offered minimal resistance for the attackers. German U.N. forces, meanwhile, watched the monastery destroyed without taking action "Both victims have been mutilated for life and are invalids today," says the report. "The perpetrator has never been found." Similar horror stories are recounted in the towns of Novo Brdo, Devet Jugovica, Pristina, Letnica, Urosevac, Kosovo Polje, Vitina and Banjska. U.N. forces are also charged with a kind of ethnic profiling that directly aided the cause of Albanian ethnic cleansing. U.N. authorities overseeing the ethnic and religious balance in towns frequently identified Serbian Christian homes and Albanian Muslim homes. Sometimes yellow crosses were placed on the Christian homes – which helped identify targets for the persecutors, according to the Kosovo genocide report.

484 Fionn MacCumhaill  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:41:55pm

I think that the best way to solve the Kosovo/Serbia situation is to completely separate the the Albanians from the Serbs in Kosovo. The place should be partitioned, and all Albanians in the small Serbian piece of Kosovo should be bought out and moved out. Likewise, all Serbs in the Albanian area should be bought out and moved out. Churches and mosques should be disassembled and moved along with the people. The small Serbian part should be made a permanent part of Serbia and the Albanian part should be either given independence or united with Albania.

The Kosovo battlefield where the Serbs lost their independence to the Turks will have to be made an isolated part of Serbia, with guaranteed Serbian access. This site is immensely important to Serbs; it is sacred ground to them, and if it is left in Albanian possession, there will never be any chance of any approximation of peace.

485 grumpy old codger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:41:57pm

re: #406 Lucius Septimius

I can see what you're driving act, but I just can't agree to call it federalism. Final control was vested in the Senate appointed rulers, with no real deference to local rule. Rome might compromise somewhat on certain things, such as statues of the gods in Jerusalem, but federalism and its concept of representation was no present at all. Early on the Romans co opted locals to rule but the major concern was taxation. Local disturbances were crushed by the army.
I think the best verbalization of roman foreign policy was uttered by Cicero (to paraphrase), "I don't care if they love us, as long as they fear us".

486 Spiny Norman  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:42:05pm

"Ethnic cleansing" was actually successfully perpetrated in Kosovo - by the Albanians with our tacit approval. This will eventually come back to bite us all on the ass. This is why picking sides in that fight was a dreadful mistake.

487 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:42:56pm

re: #464 Killgore Trout

Not until the 21st.

488 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:43:21pm

re: #472 mama winger

To answer your previous question, it was indeed the "genocide" thing, but on the whole the intervention was as pointless, disorganized, and, in the end, unproductive as Somalia. The Clinton White House could not figure out what to do on the foreign policy front. They made it up as they went along, usually in the dark, and without any long-range plan.

On account of the total chaos of the Clinton White House, I have a hard time believing conspiracy theories about their ties to the Saudis on this one. They had no plan -- everything was ad hoc and half-baked. Their only serious and sustained agenda was on the domestic front.

489 formercorpsman  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:43:30pm

re: #464 Killgore Trout

Killgore, I got this from the congressional record.

[Link: frwebgate.access.gpo.gov...]

Senator Lieberman's words.

490 chubby vegan  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:43:32pm

re: #479 mama winger

Must be. Must look reeeaaalllyyy glamorous the closer you get to those seats of power. Me? Don't even want to look it through a telescope.

491 Arkay  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:43:32pm

He refers to Hague testimony whereby it became clear that the Serbs were cleansing no Muslims or Croats from Serbia proper, and thus it was entirely preposterous that they were cleansing these people outside of Serbia.>>

The idea that the Serbs "outside of Serbia" did not ethnically cleanse is (while easing the conscience of Serb genocide apologists) completely contradicted by the facts. The news was full of Bosnian ethnic cleansing pictures for three years in the early 1990s. They weren't accidental. And the proof of the pudding: compare the Bosnian ethnic distribution shown in the 1991 census with that at the present day. Before the war, Bosnia's ethnic distribution was a "Jackson Pollock painting" (to use Alija Izetbegovic's phrase), today it's, well, not.

Just because the Islamists are our enemies today dopes not make the early 1990s Serb efforts at a musselmanner-frei "Srpska Respublika" any less a reality. They were evil then, as evil as the Islamists are today.

492 Carridine  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:43:58pm

re: #450 Arkay

Link please? (Rape camps, ethnic cleansing)

Not denying, I'm just asking for some non-you support for your assertions, Arkay.

493 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:44:05pm
494 Ma Sands  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:44:10pm

re: #464 Killgore Trout

I just went outside to check, and I can't tell --it's too cloudy; I do think it's pretty close, though.


/ :)

495 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:44:24pm

re: #466 sultan_knish

ah google videos, it's where I found out the Freemasons were behind 9/11 and HAARP controls the weather


They look like Jews in 1942, don't they. I guess the Jews faked their footage too.
/

496 bombirannow[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:44:33pm
497 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:44:54pm
498 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:44:57pm

re: #476 bombirannow

Fuck off.

499 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:45:04pm
500 jimbob21  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:45:28pm

re: #468 Piltdown Man

There was a lot of killing, to be certain. Since the forces of NATO are firmly on one side (the Muslim one), a bastardized version of DNA testing has been used to declare pretty much every body as belonging to a Muslim.

Actual death tolls is around 100K people in total, proportionately the same as the people involved. The more heinous killing was done by the Islamified Bosnian Muslims and the imported Afghan Arabs brought in to train them. They fought via terror: gouging out eyes, using cold metal weapons, mutilating bodies.

501 bombirannow[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:46:04pm
502 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:46:39pm

re: #485 grumpy old codger

re: #406 Lucius Septimius

I can see what you're driving act, but I just can't agree to call it federalism. Final control was vested in the Senate appointed rulers, with no real deference to local rule. Rome might compromise somewhat on certain things, such as statues of the gods in Jerusalem, but federalism and its concept of representation was no present at all. Early on the Romans co opted locals to rule but the major concern was taxation. Local disturbances were crushed by the army.
I think the best verbalization of roman foreign policy was uttered by Cicero (to paraphrase), "I don't care if they love us, as long as they fear us".

All of that is certainly true, but much of the empire just sort of went along on its merry way for a thousand years without the Senate or Army doing much of anything other than the occasional symbolic act. Again, it was de facto federalism, even though the constitution wasn't intended to work that way.

You're absolutely right about fear. The Romans could be remarkably patient with revolting provincials, but when they'd had enough, they'd had enough.

503 bombirannow[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:47:12pm
504 David IV of Georgia  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:47:19pm

re: #460 mama winger

re: #454 David IV of Georgia

Are you involved with the work of the Orthodox Church there?

In the early '90s I was working with Protestants—YWAM, to be exact.

505 Cognito  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:47:30pm

re: #501 bombirannow

re: #493 song_and_dance_man
Clinton has been rewarded for attacking the Serbians! His money connections to Dubai!


Your wacko conspiracy theories are forcing me to side, in a fashion, with Bill Clinton. And that's irritating.

506 grumpy old codger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:47:35pm

re: #421 Geepers

Yes but my honey loves me (I think) and I don't think she'll be praying for me to be subjugated and converted or, at worst, beheaded.

507 sultan_knish  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:48:05pm

re: #495 Killgore Trout

re: #466 sultan_knish

ah google videos, it's where I found out the Freemasons were behind 9/11 and HAARP controls the weather


They look like Jews in 1942, don't they. I guess the Jews faked their footage too.
/

here's a good idea, why don't you check the source of the video you posted

[Link: uk.youtube.com...]

enjoy the german and the child soldiers

508 bombirannow[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:48:33pm
509 OldLineTexan  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:48:53pm

re: #466 sultan_knish

re: #459 Killgore Trout


re: #439 jimbob21

There were no Serb-run concentration or rape camps.

Really? you should learn to google and watch the videos.

ah google videos, it's where I found out the Freemasons were behind 9/11 and HAARP controls the weather

Except for hurricanes. Bush has the hurricane rights.

510 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:48:54pm
511 stevieray  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:49:49pm

re: #415 sultan_knish

re: #433 sultan_knish

Thank you!

512 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:50:41pm

re: #508 bombirannow

Also the Sudanese killed 2 Million Christians in the 90's!
Why was nothing done about this!

There's a line in the movie 'Sahara' that goes:

Nobody cares about Africa.

I've come to agree with it more and more.

513 sultan_knish  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:50:57pm

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

The KLA was responsible for serious abuses in 1998, including abductions and murders of Serbs and ethnic Albanians considered collaborators with the state. In some villages under KLA control in 1998, the rebels drove ethnic Serbs from their homes. Some of those who remained are unaccounted for and are presumed to have been abducted by the KLA and killed. According to the International Committee of the Red Cross, ninety-seven Kosovo Serbs who went missing in 1998 were still missing as of May 15, 2000

An estimated 200,000 Serbs fled Kosovo after the war.[2] Gypsies were also driven out after being harassed by Albanians. Since June 12, 1999, as many as 1,000 Serbs and Roma have been murdered or have gone missing as a result of KLA elements and possibly criminal gangs or vengeful individuals.[3][4] The Yugoslav Red Cross had also registered 247,391 mostly Serbian refugees by November. The new exodus was a severe embarrassment to NATO, which had established a peacekeeping force of 45,000 under the auspices of the United Nations Mission In Kosovo

In August 1998, twenty-two Serbian civilians were reportedly killed in the village of Klecka, where the police claimed to have discovered human remains and a kiln used to cremate the bodies.[6]

In September 1998, the Serbian police collected thirty-four bodies of people believed to have been seized and murdered by the KLA, among them some ethnic Albanians, at Lake Radonjic near Glodjane (Gllogjan)

2001

On February 16, 2001, a bus carrying Serb civilians on a "commemoration mission" to family graves in Albanian-controlled territory was destroyed by a roadside bomb at a spot near Podujevo, en route to Gra%u010Danica, killing 12. It was one in a convoy of five buses carrying 250 people from the city of Ni%u0161, escorted by armoured personnel carriers from the Swedish contingent of the KFOR peacekeeping force. According to KFOR's regional commander, the bomb comprised between 100-200 lb of high explosive, detonated using a command wire.[8]. (see Podujevo bus bombing)

On April 30, 2001, an 18-year-old was shot twice and killed whilst walking with his sister and a friend in the Vitina market place. He was killed simply because he was a Serb. In the course of the incident, one of the shots fired by the gunman by chance hit an Albanian man sitting in his car nearby causing him serious injuries.[9]

[edit] 2003

On August 13, 2003 two youths from the minority Serb community in Kosovo were killed in an attack by unknown gunmen. Six other people were injured in the attack, which took place as they were swimming in a river near the western village of Gora%u017Edevac. The attackers were waiting for the swimmers and opened fire with Kalashnikov machine-guns from the bushes. The dead and injured youths were aged between 10 and 20

514 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:51:51pm
515 Piltdown Man  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:52:00pm

re: #461 kevin the ox

I can agree that what happened doesn't get the label genocide and I haven't used it. Killings, mass killings, or something similar is what I would call it.

If you're Eastern Orthodox, that means you favor your tribe and I applaud you for it -- why shouldn't we favor our own tribe in any dispute? That's the nature of things. And there are damn good reasons to think that support for Kosovar independence is a mistake.

But any denial of war crimes on the Serbian side minimizes and distracts from those arguments.

516 Arbalest  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:52:18pm

#453 Ploome Hineni

I read that the muslim Kosovars are the least literate of the population

Perhaps, but they are very much closer to Europeans in behavior, culture, literacy, etc., than very many immigrant Muslims from Egypt, Pakistan, etc. Can these people form a satisfactory state? Europe will see, and very soon.

and thats why the Albanians invaded Serbia/Kosovo

Perhaps the Albanians saw an opportunity . . .

work and 23 children in every family
if we allow it to happen in Serbia, wait until it happens in France and Yorkshire, and Michigan

Let us not allow this.

Unfortunately, this is the beginning of the real version of the blog war of several weeks ago. From the first 300 comments, I note that some opinions are somewhat less certain than they were previously. But let us all agree to wait and see how the real events turn out before we go through the very destructive and self-destructive cycle again.

517 sultan_knish  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:52:23pm

re: #508 bombirannow

re: #500 jimbob21
The Serbians were defending their land against Islam!
Why can't people see this.
Also the Sudanese killed 2 Million Christians in the 90's!
Why was nothing done about this!

Because Muslims get a free pass on genocide and when their victims fight back, the world condemns them for it

518 Arkay  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:53:23pm

how do they know an unearthed Kosovar body, is muslim or Serb?>>

By checking the I.D. in the pocket. Surprisingly easy in most cases. Serb murders of the time were pretty efficient at killing but notso-hotso at hiding the evidence.

I lie not. I was there (in Bosnia, not Kosovo) after the war. I saw the aftermath. I knew the investigators (British, mostly, BTW). And the Serbs dunnit. Without question. The dead at Srebrenica were Muslims. The bullets were from V Corps VRS weaponry, seized and tested after the war.

Fact.

Even if genocide didn't happen in Kosovo, it absolutely happened in Bosnia. 8000 dead Muslim men in five days (7-11 through 7-15) is 0.5% of all Bosnian Muslims. That's genocide by my book.

And if you don't believe me, try "google." Or the UN War Crimes Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. Let those who have ears, hear.

As for me? I know what I saw. That's enough.

519 David IV of Georgia  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:53:50pm

re: #478 ciaospirit

Ploome is posting all kinds of links. Can everyone please do the same? Assertions should be supported by links or other resources.

I agree. This thread has too much heat on both sides. Specific assertions should be backed by verifiable sources whenever possible or given a disclaimer that this is a rumor, opinion, or whatever. LGF is not a rumor/conspiracy mill. We should hold ourselves to the same standards we demand of trolls.

520 doriangrey  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:54:16pm

Great goglly wogglies, isnt it about time for a new thread? Maybe a nice palate cleansing Ocean open thread of something?

521 TIgger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:54:27pm

re: #225 El matamorosI am with you on this one. A Muslim country in the heart of Europe spells nothing but trouble. There is no way, shape or form in which Islam can be good for its neighbors. Not in this day and age. The US should not have supported this

522 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:54:28pm

re: #510 song_and_dance_man

Yet they still fight on. This is the first time in a very long time that I find so many of the posts on this thread disgusting and insane that I have to tap out. It's very sad to see people deny war crimes just because they were committed against Muslims. Some people even cheer them on. If I were Charles (which I'm not) I'd flush this whole thread down the memory hole. It's an embarrassment.
/G'nite, y'all

523 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:54:36pm

re: #519 David IV of Georgia

LGF is not a rumor/conspiracy mill.

I just come here for the free food.

524 stevieray  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:54:46pm

re: #441 ploome hineni

re: #432 mama winger

re: #426 ploome hineni

Hiya ploome.

You know, I follow politics and news pretty closely, and I can't for the life of me remember the Clinton Administration laying out the case for our actions in Kosovo. Did I miss it?

I think it was 'massacres', like the ones in Jenin

what would you all do, if California wasw 65-70% Mexican, and wanted to cede from USA and become 'independant', bombing and shooting up the countryside and waving Mexican falgs

I would pick up a gun and fight. The two most "holy" things in the secular world of politics today are the US Constitution and the land this nation currently encompasses. I would fight a war, by myself if necessary, to preserve their integrity.

525 sultan_knish  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:54:51pm

[Link: www.jihadwatch.org...]


Persecution of Kosovo Christians Said to Reveal Larger Threat

"What is going on in Kosovo today is the future of Europe tomorrow.

(CNSNews.com) - International intervention to halt the persecution of Christians in Kosovo is a "complete failure," according to a former diplomat and other political analysts who briefed Capitol Hill staff late last week, pointing to the destruction of 150 churches and the simultaneous construction of 200 mosques.

Cybercast News Service obtained video of the burning and desecrating of the churches by ethnic Albanians, most of them Muslim. See Video

The new mosques are funded by "Wahhabist nations," the diplomats said, raising the specter of radical Islam incubating on the doorstep of Europe in a province rife with illegal arms and narcotics trafficking.

The religious persecution is also part of a political strategy of violence, which if rewarded in the granting of independence to Kosovo, could trigger similar violent secessionist movements throughout neighboring states and countries, they warned.

Unfolding events in Kosovo have already sent shock waves to as far away as China, which has now expressed concern to the U.S. over possible copycat attempts at secession in its predominantly Muslim Xinjiang Province.

Kosovo, an international protectorate administered by the United Nations, is part of Serbia and Montenegro, but the legal authority of the region is the U.N. Interim Mission in Kosovo (UNMIK).

The province is considered one of the jewels of Christian heritage, having served as the "Vatican" of Serbian Christian Orthodoxy from the 12th century onward.

Serbs, who are predominantly Orthodox Christians, constitute a minority, as do Turks, Roma (gypsies) and Muslim Slavs. Eighty-eight percent of Kosovo's population is made up of Muslim Albanians.

The attacks and ongoing persecution are seen by some as the purposeful targeting of the very symbols of Christian European civilization.

Between 1999 and 2004 approximately 150 churches, monasteries, seminaries, and bishop residences were attacked by ethnic Albanian mobs. Many of the churches contained priceless Byzantine frescoes and other religious artifacts dating as far back as the 13th century. Many of the sites were reduced to rubble.

In a Capitol Hill press conference Aug. 11, former U.S. Ambassador Thomas Patrick Melady called for a heightened international presence in Kosovo and the continuation of that presence for another 12 years...

Referring to the destruction of 34 churches in March of last year Melady said, "Thanks to a few amateur films that were made when the protests broke out, we can see how things unfolded. At all the scenes someone would climb to the top and tear down the cross, then stomp on it. Then they would set fire to the church."

During the Aug. 12 congressional staff briefing, Melady's research assistant, Ivan Djurovski, showed footage of the destruction of St. Andrew the Apostle Church in Podujevo.

The 17-minute video obtained by Cybercast News Service shows crowds of men ranging in age from about 15 to 50, calmly and methodically fanning out around the church after marching through town. After setting the church on fire, one of the vandals enters the bell tower to ring the church bell, which draws cheers from the crowd. Men scale the roof of the church to tear down three crosses, resulting in more cheers. Cybercast News Service edited the 17 minute video down to approximately two-and-a-half minutes...

For those who think the Serbians "got what they deserved" at the hands of the Muslims, I wonder what the Roma did to deserve an Albanian terrorist state bent on oppressing all non-Muslims

526 Geepers  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:55:24pm

OldLineTexan (#474),

Fair enough. My point was really aimed more at the insignificance (in the grand scheme of things) 2 B is. I've always thought Egypt should tell us to just keep it and the strings attached. But they don't, like the petty potentates they are.

527 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:55:28pm
528 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:55:40pm
529 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:55:49pm

re: #523 mama winger

re: #519 David IV of Georgia

LGF is not a rumor/conspiracy mill.

I just come here for the free food.

The BBQ Troll buttocks are particularly good.

530 sultan_knish  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:56:16pm

re: #518 Arkay


Even if genocide didn't happen in Kosovo, it absolutely happened in Bosnia. 8000 dead Muslim men in five days (7-11 through 7-15) is 0.5% of all Bosnian Muslims. That's genocide by my book.

No 25 percent might be genocide. 0.5 percent is not genocide. It's not even close

531 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:56:38pm

re: #525 sultan_knish

Between 1999 and 2004 approximately 150 churches, monasteries, seminaries, and bishop residences were attacked by ethnic Albanian mobs. Many of the churches contained priceless Byzantine frescoes and other religious artifacts dating as far back as the 13th century. Many of the sites were reduced to rubble.

In addition to the bloodshed, this stuff just breaks my heart.

532 jimbob21  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:57:05pm

re: #115 Killgore Trout

I take it you are some kind of shill for the US State Department?!?

533 Palandine  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:57:15pm

OT

**Disaster Preparedness Tip the Third: Hygiene**

We're heading into tough financial times, most of the places in America are subject to natural disasters of some sort, and even the government suggests you be prepared for three days' self-sufficiency in case of disaster (which is pie in the sky--Australia recommends their people have 10 WEEKS of food and water in case of a pandemic flu situation). I'm not Jane Survivalist, but I've been keeping up preps for a couple of years, bit by bit. Don't be overwhelmed; start small.

This tip is separate from health and first aid kits, which comes tomorrow. Again, plan for two weeks. You will have to adjust these depending on whether it's an emergency where you can go outside or where you're stuck inside. First, you'll need a toilet in case yours doesn't work (you might be able to flush some toilets with your "gray" (wash or shower) water even if your plumbing's out, but if you can't you'll need another method. Wally World and others sell "hassock" type toilets in their camping sections. These are good, and you can make something similar yourself with a 5-gallon bucket and the toilet seat you remove from your own. Now, the store-bought porta potties come with a blue chemical odor stopper and disinfectant. If you perceive your disaster will only last a few days, and that you'll eventually be able to dump the mess into a working toilet or an RV dump station, it's fine to use this. However, if this is a longer-term disaster, you don't want to use this. Eventually, you'll have to bury the stuff in a hole outside, and the disinfectant will actually keep the soil from breaking down the bacteria, increasing the chance of disease and water contamination, therefore ironically also increasing the smell.

Use the porta-potty mostly for, emm, solid deposits. Pee is sterile as long as you don't have any infections, so it's better to simply go outside if this is possible. Don't be obsessive about this, but excess liquid in the bucket is just more nastiness to deal with. Have a container of dirt or sawdust next to the porta-potty. Sprinkle a handful into the porta-potty after each deposit to cut down on smells. Keep the lid tight, for the same reason and to deter flies.

Stock one roll of toilet paper per person per week.

Be sure to stock extra diapers, baby wipes, plastic bags you can tie the used diapers into, feminine hygiene items, and cat litter (and any other items you regularly use for pet waste).

Have a hand-washing station near the toilet. If water is scarce, be sure to stock handi-wipes and hand sanitizer gel. If you have water, use a system like the old-fashioned pitcher and bowl: pour some water over your hands into the bowl, lather up good with soap, paying special attention to the fingernails, rinse with some more water, then dry. Keep fingernails clipped short. Use a fingernail brush.

Beyond that, bathing in a disaster situation will of necessity be limited. I've heard it called two things: a "wh0re's bath" or George Carlin called it "armpits, @sshole, crotch, and teeth." Pay special attention to the cleanliness of your hands, and then to a lesser extent, being able to wash the stinky bits is both good for morale and for health. You can use handi-wipes if there is not much water. Ideally you should stock extra water for cleaning. If you have a source of water that's not necessarily drinkable (pool, pond, creek, etc.), you can boil it and bathe with that. Don't bathe directly in a creek or lake unless you're using biodegradable soap. Make sure the water you brush your teeth with is fit to drink, or you're asking for gastrointestinal problems.

Disaster Preparedness tip the Seconde: Food

534 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:57:20pm

re: #528 buzzsawmonkey

re: #529 Lucius Septimius

You guys are spending WAY too much time together ! LOL!

535 doriangrey  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:57:22pm

re: #528 buzzsawmonkey

re: #523 mama winger

I just come here for the free food.

Would that be the food for thought, or the gamey troll buttocks en casserole?

Heh heh heh, moma winger? I'm pretty sure its both, but I suspect she considers the gamey troll buttocks en casserole a special desert.

536 Ma Sands  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:57:46pm

re: #528 buzzsawmonkey

re: #529 Lucius Septimius

9 seconds! :)

537 formercorpsman  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:57:59pm

Guys, like I said, I don't profess to understand this with any major depth other than the reading I have been able to do on my own.

What I have been able to construct in my own mind, is the factual history.

Just like Jerusalem, it never belonged to the muslims rightfully. From a historical standpoint, it is Jewish, will always be Jewish, even when not in Jewish hands, it was still a part of Jacob's struggle evermore.

In 1804, the Serbs were the first kick out the Ottomans after 350 years of oppressive rule.

Now I can agree that sides have committed horrible atrocities against each other with respect to this conflict. No doubt. But insomuch as we took it upon ourselves to get involved with this part of the world, we have let the real culprits of world disregard have an even greater influence.

I am not dismissing ethnic cleansing.

But it is not clear cut as some folks make it out be, and the historical record is just as relevant to the natives there, as for the diaspora who fight for Israel.

538 goddessoftheclassroom  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:58:05pm

re: #531 mama winger

re: #525 sultan_knish


Between 1999 and 2004 approximately 150 churches, monasteries, seminaries, and bishop residences were attacked by ethnic Albanian mobs. Many of the churches contained priceless Byzantine frescoes and other religious artifacts dating as far back as the 13th century. Many of the sites were reduced to rubble.

In addition to the bloodshed, this stuff just breaks my heart.

Mine, too. To destroy art is to destroy a part of mankind's soul. It's evil.

539 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:58:52pm

re: #533 Palandine

Stock one roll of toilet paper per person per week.

You clearly have never made the acquaintance of Little Winger.

540 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:59:13pm

re: #536 Ma Sands

re: #534 mama winger

How can you be two places at once when you're really nowhere at all?

541 jimbob21  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:59:22pm

re: #525 sultan_knish

Likewise, the pro-Kosovo crowd should come out of the closet and do a sig heil to their Hajj Amin Al Husseini posters, and thank him for all his great work done killing those evil Serbs, Jews, and Roma during WWII...

542 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:59:28pm

re: #538 goddessoftheclassroom

Yes it is. You can never get that back. This is who we are.

543 Roger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:59:30pm

re: #539 mama winger

lol!

544 bombirannow[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 5:59:54pm
545 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:00:07pm
546 sultan_knish  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:00:32pm

[Link: www.hrw.org...]

In a telling example of the low esteem in which Roma are held, ethnic Albanians watching Serbian forces retreat from the Kosovo-Albanian border on June 13 cursed the troops with one word repeated over and over again: "Gypsies!"

It is also important to note that the KLA has been linked to earlier abuses against Serbs, Roma, and Kosovar Albanians during 1998 and during the first three months of 1999. Specifically, reports by the Humanitarian Law Center, the International Committee of the Red Cross, and Human Rights Watch's own research indicate that dozens of Serbs, and a smaller number of Roma and Albanians, were detained by the KLA between mid-1998 and March 1999.(2) At least 130 Serbs went missing during this time and are presumed dead.

547 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:00:47pm

re: #543 Roger

Hi Roger !

548 Piltdown Man  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:00:54pm

re: #499 ploome hineni


Hello? Are you saying that the Serbs secretly transported corpses of dead ethnic Serbians in refrigerated trucks and dumped them in mass graves in central Serbia only to reveal them down the road as Albanian Kosovars thereby staining and tarnishing their nation?

Are you high off your ass?

549 Silhouette  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:01:04pm

I do know one thing for certain. Since the US set foot in Kosovo, anything wrong that every happens there in the future will be "our fault" to the world, taught in college classes, and written in any article.

550 Spiny Norman  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:01:22pm

re: #522 Killgore Trout

re: #510 song_and_dance_man

Yet they still fight on. This is the first time in a very long time that I find so many of the posts on this thread disgusting and insane that I have to tap out. It's very sad to see people deny war crimes just because they were committed against Muslims. Some people even cheer them on. If I were Charles (which I'm not) I'd flush this whole thread down the memory hole. It's an embarrassment.
/G'nite, y'all

I'm pretty much embarrassed that anyone here would take the side of the Kosovo Albanians. What they did after we "liberated" them was every bit as vile as what the Serbian Army and ethnic militias did, except our government apparently approved of it.

551 macintush  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:01:25pm

Personally, to me, no link = no weight, only a personal opinion. It doesn't necessarily mean the opinion is wrong, but I don't place about as much trust in an unlinked assertion as I do a politicians' promise.

Please, please, please, have a little respect for everyone here, and provide a link, even if you're positive that your perspective is accurate.

Thankyouverymuch.

552 sultan_knish  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:01:32pm

re: #545 song_and_dance_man

re: #519 David IV of Georgia

Specific assertions should be backed by verifiable sources whenever possible or given a disclaimer that this is a rumor, opinion, or whatever. LGF is not a rumor/conspiracy mill. We should hold ourselves to the same standards we demand of trolls.

Let it be so.

I've been doing that for a while now on this thread

553 Killian Bundy  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:01:59pm

Gypsys Tramps And Thieves

/the unofficial Albanian national anthem

554 Arkay  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:02:13pm

To destroy art is to destroy a part of mankind's soul.>>

To worship art as an excuse to occupy land that is no longer your own is also to destroy a part of mankind's soul.

And remember the thousands of mosques (and Catholic churches) the Serbs crushed and downed in the areas they dominated in "Srpska".

Nothing is as simple as it seems.

555 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:02:18pm

gotta go

In the words of our dear friend Obi-wan, may he rest in peace:

Play nice.

556 grumpy old codger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:02:25pm

re: #502 Lucius Septimius

Thanks for the interesting conversation. I'll have to go back now and re-read Gibbons, with special attention to local administration.

557 doriangrey  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:02:34pm

re: #545 song_and_dance_man

re: #519 David IV of Georgia

Specific assertions should be backed by verifiable sources whenever possible or given a disclaimer that this is a rumor, opinion, or whatever. LGF is not a rumor/conspiracy mill. We should hold ourselves to the same standards we demand of trolls.

Let it be so.

Oh darn it, and I was so enjoying throwing around baseless absurd assertions... Oh wait never mind, that was baseless suggestions of fine beers...

558 macintush  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:03:10pm

re: #551 macintush

I din't mean to put "don't" there.

Sorry

559 Palandine  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:03:23pm

re: #539 mama winger

You know, that's the standard listed on all the preparedness web sites, and I didn't know anyone who went through a whole roll in a week. Guess I don't get out often enough. Oh well, it's got other uses, too... :)

560 sultan_knish  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:03:38pm

[Link: www.hrw.org...]

The most recent killings of Serb civilians took place on July 23 near the village of Gracko, in central Kosovo. Fourteen farmers were shot dead as they harvested hay in the single biggest massacre since KFOR entered the province. The farmers were reportedly shot at close range at about 9:30 p.m. As of this writing, it was unclear who was responsible for the attack. On July 25, the BBC reported that KFOR had promised to station peacekeepers in Gracko in response to requests for protection from villagers, but that the peacekeepers had not been deployed in the village at the time of the killings, despite requests from the Serb population.

Filipovic's wife Maria, fifty-nine years old, told Human Rights Watch that two separate groups of armed and uniformed KLA members visited her house on June 15, writing down her and her husband's names and identification numbers, and telling the couple that they would be permitted to remain in Prizren. A few days later, on June 18, a group of four men in KLA uniforms appeared and told Panta Filipovic to hand over his arms. When Filipovic said he had no arms to give them, one of the men hit him in the stomach with the butt of an automatic weapon.

The murders occurred in the mid-morning of June 21. Both Marica Filipovic and Trifun Stamenkovic were out of the house when their respective spouses were killed; both had gone into town to shop. Trifun Stamenkovic, eighty-five, told Human Rights Watch:

I left at about 10:00 a.m. and when I returned at 11:00 a.m. I couldn't find my wife. When I came inside, I saw the broken windows and everything broken. I was in the doorway and I went back outside and saw a German patrol, two jeeps. I told them my wife was missing, that she wasn't in the house. When I entered the house with them I saw only my wife's knees. Her knees were bloody. I didn't see the rest of her body; the Germans took me outside. They saw her dead; they didn't let me inside to see her.(10)

A half hour later, when Maria Filipovic returned from shopping, German KFOR troops had already discovered that her husband had been attacked as well, and was dying from his stab wounds. As Maria stood in front of her home crying, her Albanian Catholic neighbors told her that KLA members had committed the killings. Both victims had their throats cut. German soldiers told Human Rights Watch that Marica Stamenkovic had been nearly decapitated.

With the deaths of their spouses, Maria Filipovic and Trifun Stamenkovic abandoned their homes, taking refuge in a local theological seminary under the protection of German KFOR troops. When interviewed by Human Rights Watch three days after the killings, neither one had plans for the future.

561 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:03:48pm
562 Ma Sands  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:03:55pm

re: #539 mama winger

I am sure, in time of emergency, one could adjust one's needs... :)

Reminds me, though, of when my Dad was a soldier in WWII; he was on leave, eating at his future wife's large family's home...they were rationed to a single stick of butter for the whole family for the whole week...he wasn't aware of that, as soldiers weren't rationed...and he slathered butter on his bread, to their horror-stricken stares...oh, was he embarrassed! :)

563 Spiny Norman  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:04:01pm

re: #549 Silhouette

I do know one thing for certain. Since the US set foot in Kosovo, anything wrong that every happens there in the future will be "our fault" to the world, taught in college classes, and written in any article.

As exaggerated as that would be, I'd be hard-pressed to argue against it.

564 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:04:31pm
565 chubby vegan  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:04:46pm

I know less about this than I know about quarks and quantum theory. I got nuthin.

566 Arkay  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:05:04pm

0.5 percent is not genocide. >>

If 1,500,000 American males were rounded up and killed because they were American males, I am sure you would have a different attitude on the question.

567 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:05:04pm
568 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:05:16pm

re: #556 grumpy old codger

Keep in mind that Gibbon was particularly interested in trying to discredit Christianity and blame the fall of Rome on a "weakness" of character. He based his verdict too much on an unqualified reading of certain sources, above all Zosimus.

Theodor Mommsen had a more balanced view.

569 sultan_knish  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:05:30pm

[Link: www.hrw.org...]

According to the Serbian Orthodox Church in Pec, approximately thirty Serbs were killed in the Pec municipality in the months of June and July, although the circumstances of their deaths are mostly unknown.(12) Malica Miric, twenty-six, was allegedly killed by two men, one in KLA uniform, in Belo Polje on June 26. Milena Vujsevic was allegedly killed by unknown assailants in her Pec home on June 27. Human Rights Watch has not been able to confirm these allegations.

Human Rights Watch has received additional reports of the murder of Serbs in Kosovo. Eight Serbs have been killed in the town of Obilic since early June, according to KFOR officers in the town. The most recent killing occurred on June 30. According to KFOR officers in the area who have investigated the incidents, the killings were organized attacks rather than spontaneous reactions by returnees and KLA units were implicated in the killing.

In Lipljan, a Serb male was decapitated in the middle of the town's busy market on Monday, July 9, sometime between 11 a.m. and 3 p.m, according to KFOR military police in the town. As of July 16, no witnesses had come forward. There are numerous reports of killings where it has been difficult to identify the perpetrators because so many Serbs have fled or are afraid and Albanians are unwilling to speak

570 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:05:41pm
571 Geepers  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:05:48pm

ploome

572 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:06:06pm

re: #564 ploome hineni

Care to share?

Oops, wife's in the room ... maybe later.

573 grumpy old codger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:06:19pm

re: #508 bombirannow

Could it be due to the fact that the Rwandans and the Sudanese are black?

574 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:06:31pm

re: #570 buzzsawmonkey

re: #555 mama winger

gotta go

In the words of our dear friend Obi-wan, may he rest in peace:

Play nice.

But they're just about to bring out the corned beef!

Got some mustard to go with that?

575 bombirannow[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:06:58pm
576 sultan_knish  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:07:06pm

re: #566 Arkay

0.5 percent is not genocide. >>

If 1,500,000 American males were rounded up and killed because they were American males, I am sure you would have a different attitude on the question.

except that 1,500,000 American males weren't rounded up and killed

8000 dead was a day in the park by comparison to what partition in India looked like and no one seriously calls that genocide

if you want genocide, take a look at Africa, because it did not happen in Yugoslavia

577 macintush  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:07:14pm

re: #565 chubby vegan

I know less about this than I know about quarks and quantum theory. I got nuthin.

Quarks and quantum theory 'splained (holds true for this week, mebbe)

578 Spiny Norman  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:07:18pm

re: #554 Arkay

To destroy art is to destroy a part of mankind's soul.>>

To worship art as an excuse to occupy land that is no longer your own is also to destroy a part of mankind's soul.

OK, that pseudo-intellectual gobbledygook.

Here's one for ya:

Southern California, occupied by the US, but no longer theirs.

Good grief.

579 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:07:55pm
580 avideditorla.com[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:08:06pm
581 BulgarWheat  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:08:08pm

Kosovo is the next London. Go ahead and watch what a wonderful job they do with Kosovo.

Just keep the bastards out of Croatia.

582 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:08:09pm
583 bombirannow[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:08:20pm
584 sultan_knish  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:08:42pm

[Link: www.hrw.org...]


There have been multiple killings of Serbs in Kosovo's capital, Pristina. On June 23, the body of Milenko Lekovic, a Serb professor for the economics faculty, was found in the faculty's basement, along with the bodies of Miodrag Mladenovic, a Serb guard in the building, and Jovica Stamenkovic, a Serb waiter from a cafe in the building. Lekovic and the other men had been shot and beaten with a blunt instrument.(16) Human Rights Watch has also received a report about the killing of four elderly men from the village of Slivovo in Pristina municipality. According to their relatives, the four men, Zivion, Zivko, Trajan and Mita Simic, were reportedly abducted and later killed sometime during the third week of June.

The brother-in-law told Human Rights Watch:

They took the old man's pants off and threatened him with a gun. They told him that they'd rip his eyes out of their sockets. Then they took the blunt end of a knife and gave him these two black eyes. They asked him: "Whose country is this?" When my brother-in-law answered that it's for everyone, they weren't satisfied. They said it belongs to the KLA, and they forced him to say this

...and it seems we agree

585 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:09:44pm
586 Ma Sands  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:09:56pm

re: #579 buzzsawmonkey

(heartburn! oh, dear... ):

587 ciaospirit  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:10:21pm

Sounds like the Iron fist rule should go into effect. And I say that in love.

588 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:10:37pm

re: #579 buzzsawmonkey

I'll bring the pickles.

589 formercorpsman  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:10:47pm

Another angle on this as well.

The Serbs of Yugoslavia were the only group still fighting against the Nazis after the Kingdom fell in only 11 days.

In Croatia, guess who the Germans incited against the remaining Serbs?

590 David IV of Georgia  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:10:56pm

re: #538 goddessoftheclassroom

re: #531 mama winger

re: #525 sultan_knish

Between 1999 and 2004 approximately 150 churches, monasteries, seminaries, and bishop residences were attacked by ethnic Albanian mobs. Many of the churches contained priceless Byzantine frescoes and other religious artifacts dating as far back as the 13th century. Many of the sites were reduced to rubble.

In addition to the bloodshed, this stuff just breaks my heart.
Mine, too. To destroy art is to destroy a part of mankind's soul. It's evil.

This will really depress you then: [Link: www.kosovo.net...]

591 Arkay  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:11:06pm

re: #508 bombirannow

The Serbians were defending their land against Islam!
Why can't people see this.>>

Cuz it ain't true. They were stealing their non-Serb neighbors' stuff, raping their girls, and blowing up their houses. Today is simply the last act of a long, ugly road the Serbians stepped down, gleefully, themselves in the late 1980s.

The fact that the victims in this case were Muslims doesn't mean it didn't happen.

592 kevin the ox  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:12:01pm

#515 Piltdown Man,
It's not so much simplysupporting my "tribe" (I am not so irrational as that) as having had the situation in Kosovo continually in sight for the past several years, through both being part of a Church that keeps one informed about its members throughout the world, particularly those in trouble, and also through being a reader of Orthodox blogs and such. I think anyone who's watched the situation deteriorate week by week would be as apalled as I.

Now Kosovo is under the Muslim yoke again, as they say.

May it be broken again, and soon.

593 bombirannow[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:12:33pm
594 formercorpsman  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:13:17pm

re: #576 sultan_knish

I would not go as far as to say genocide did not happen.

What I can agree with you on, is the United States got involved, letting other hostile islamic players do dirty work, while we did nothing to stop them in Africa.

It DOES NOT add up.

595 bombirannow[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:13:24pm
596 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:13:36pm
597 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:13:51pm
598 Killian Bundy  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:14:01pm

re: #554 Arkay

Do you have links for anything you post?

/or do you just make it up as you go along?

599 jimbob21  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:14:14pm

re: #567 song_and_dance_man

I've debated this issue on other forums, and the State Department shills (government workers, teachers, university profs) ALWAYS tap out when confronted by the few that know the truth.

Jared Israel tells the truth. Francisco Gil White tells the truth. Petar Makara, Julia Gorin, Serbianna, and a few others.

This does not conform to US State Department policy, which puts the diehard 'republicans' here into a quandry...

600 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:14:42pm

re: #591 Arkay

You were a peacekeeper over there? Interesting.

With the UN?

Are you an American?

601 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:14:52pm
602 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:14:59pm
603 formercorpsman  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:15:12pm

re: #591 Arkay

I think you are short-sighting the actual length of this conflict.

604 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:15:12pm

PS I'm back

605 stevieray  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:15:57pm

re: #525 sultan_knish

"What is going on in Kosovo today is the future of Europe tomorrow.

This is precisely the point. All who think that Muslims can coexist inside any other culture will one day wake up to find their nation being partitioned into enclaves... the Muslim areas will cry and moan and seethe and harass until they get their new bit of Dar-al-Islam... and then they move into the next town, the next county, and start the process again.

All of Europe, all of Asia, all of Africa, and all of America will look exactly like the Balkans if we allow the pestilence to spread. Stop believing the problem can be solved cleanly. Yielding any land to Islam is losing. Walking on eggshell because of Islam is losing. Changing your laws and/or culture to accept Islam is losing. Indeed, even treating Islam as a real "religion" is losing... you will find yourself constantly retreating, trying to compartmentalize the problem areas, until your nation is riddled with seething Islamic hellholes.

Stop playing nice. Nice doesn't win. Better a bloody war today than perpetual low-grade civil war in a dying civilization destroyed from within by appeasement and dhimmitude.

606 Piltdown Man  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:16:02pm

re: #561 ploome hineni

re: #548 Piltdown Man

re: #499 ploome hineni


Hello? Are you saying that the Serbs secretly transported corpses of dead ethnic Serbians in refrigerated trucks and dumped them in mass graves in central Serbia only to reveal them down the road as Albanian Kosovars thereby staining and tarnishing their nation?

Are you high off your ass?

what cool attitude, dude


what I am saying is that ALL MUSLIMS LIE ALL THE TIME

easier for you to understand?

It's easy for me to understand that you believe all Muslims lie all the time (which is a lie in and of itself and demeans you). What is not easy for me to understand is how that ties in with the Serbians (who are not Muslims for the most part) admitting their crimes which is still not enough for you. Would it be cool attitude if I labled you, based on your refusal to believe the facts in front of your face, some kind of Kosovo truther?

607 grumpy old codger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:16:24pm

re: #568 Lucius Septimius

Another volume to be added to the thousand or so that stand, waiting to be read. Maybe if I spent less time here?

608 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:16:38pm

re: #600 mama winger

re: #591 Arkay

You were a peacekeeper over there? Interesting.

With the UN?

Are you an American?

I'm just curious because I don't recall seeing you here before. :)

609 Arkay  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:16:43pm

except that 1,500,000 American males weren't rounded up and killed

>>

Principle is precisely the same.

610 doriangrey  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:17:31pm

re: #564 ploome hineni

I just checked my ass

...looking sooo good!

Hmmm, sorry, but I am going to require pics from multiple different angles to confirm the veracity of that statement...

611 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:17:34pm
612 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:17:41pm

re: #605 stevieray

the Muslim areas will cry and moan and seethe and harass until they get their new bit of Dar-al-Islam... and then they move into the next town, the next county, and start the process again.

I fear that you are correct.

613 bombirannow[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:17:54pm
614 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:18:10pm

re: #607 grumpy old codger

So many books, so little time.

615 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:18:57pm
616 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:18:57pm

re: #614 Lucius Septimius

re: #607 grumpy old codger

So many books, so little time.

I say that about wine.

617 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:19:14pm
618 doriangrey  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:19:32pm

re: #615 ploome hineni

re: #610 doriangrey

doesn't matter

I have letters of recommendation and a Blue Ribbon for placing best of show

:P

Then clearly I will need to see those as well... :)

619 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:19:38pm
620 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:19:44pm

Is it just me, or does anyone get the impression that, perhaps, a formerly banned poster might have reentered the room?

621 Geepers  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:19:48pm

Lucius Septimius (#614),

So many books, so little time.

No one has ever graduated from the library.

622 doriangrey  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:19:54pm

re: #616 mama winger

re: #614 Lucius Septimius

re: #607 grumpy old codger

So many books, so little time.

I say that about wine.

And I about Beer...

623 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:20:04pm
624 OldLineTexan  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:20:07pm

re: #599 jimbob21

re: #567 song_and_dance_man

I've debated this issue on other forums, and the State Department shills (government workers, teachers, university profs) ALWAYS tap out when confronted by the few that know the truth.

Jared Israel tells the truth. Francisco Gil White tells the truth. Petar Makara, Julia Gorin, Serbianna, and a few others.

This does not conform to US State Department policy, which puts the diehard 'republicans' here into a quandry...

Not picking a side here, but KT is nowhere near a "diehard 'republican'".

Not sure about the State Dept. shill bit, but it seems to me unlikely.

625 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:20:08pm

re: #620 Lucius Septimius

Is it just me, or does anyone get the impression that, perhaps, a formerly banned poster might have reentered the room?

I was wondering about that myself. Something seems off.

626 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:20:17pm

re: #616 mama winger

Used to say that about women, but proved an expensive habit.

627 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:20:22pm
628 sultan_knish  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:20:23pm

[Link: www.hrw.org...]


In Klina municipality, Human Rights visited the villages of Dolac and Drenovac on June 28. Both had significant Serb populations prior to March 1999. Eighteen Serb homes in Dolac had been looted and burned, and there were no Serbs left in the village where seventy Serb families had lived before the conflict. A local Albanian resident indicated that the Serb population had fled on or around June 17. The nearby village of Drenovac was empty of Serbs and mostly destroyed. There was a heavy KLA presence in the village.

Human Rights Watch also visited the villages of Brestovik and Vitomira in Pec municipality on June 28. Having been warned by a Pec resident not to go to Brestovik because "it was dangerous," Human Rights Watch arrived to discover the village in flames, several tractors loaded with furniture and kitchen appliances, and some twenty Albanians being detained for looting by Italian KFOR Carabinieri police officers. According to an Italian officer, the village's Serb and Roma populations had left several days earlier. The detainees were later taken to Pec in three police trucks. In Vitomirica, which housed a Serb majority population prior to the conflict, there had clearly been considerable arson and looting of Serb homes. Houses with "Albanian house" written on the side were left untouched, while other houses had clothing and detritus strewn about in front lawns and doors left open. Some Serb homes were being occupied by Albanian returnees. One man told Human Rights Watch, "We are occupying Serb houses because they burned ours.

Human Rights Watch also visited the town of Istok and several villages in the Istok municipality the same day. In the town itself, a Human Rights Watch researcher witnessed the looting of recently abandoned Serb homes, some of which were still ablaze. Clothing was hanging on washing lines, doors were open, and pigs and other farm animals were untethered. No Serbs remained. In an area where looting was clearly taking place, two men in what appeared to be KLA uniforms were seen helping a third man to load furniture onto a tractor trailer. When asked what was happening, a male resident of the town in his forties said that the fires had been started to burn dead animals which would otherwise constitute a health risk. There was no evidence to support this assertion. A Human Rights Watch researcher also observed a large KLA presence in the town, although not in the quarter where the burning and looting was occurring.

According to Roma interviewed in Djakovica, about thirty Roma homes in the Brekoc neighborhood were burned within three hours on July 12. Men in KLA uniform told them to leave their homes a few days before the burning took place. Human Rights Watch visited the Roma neighborhood on July 24 and saw the charred remains. Approximately 600 Roma from Brekoc and other areas in Djakovica are currently in a UNHCR camp in the city guarded by Italian KFOR troops. The Roma are free to leave the camp, but told Human Rights Watch that they fear to do so because of retaliatory attacks by the KLA

629 avideditorla.com[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:20:47pm
630 doriangrey  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:20:55pm

re: #623 ploome hineni

re: #618 doriangrey

arf

Hey I am just doing my duty as a good upstanding fact checking lizard here... :)

631 Arkay  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:21:02pm

With the UN?

US Army.

Are you an American?

Yes. Born and bred, ninth generation. Northern European, no Balkan relations.

And to answer another question:

"Whay sis the Turks and their Albanian lackeys do to the Serbs for 400 years? Care to discuss that?"

No I don't. The criminals of the past are dead and the worms have eaten them; and God has sentenced them. I don't blame people for crimes their ancestors may or may not have committed. There is a word for trhat: racism.

632 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:22:05pm
633 sultan_knish  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:22:42pm

re: #609 Arkay

except that 1,500,000 American males weren't rounded up and killed

>>

Principle is precisely the same.

No it's not. If I have ten dollars and you take my dollar, it is not the same exact crime as stealing ten billion dollars from Bill Gates, even if numerically the proportions are the same

number games like that completely ignore the context

634 formercorpsman  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:23:11pm

re: #613 bombirannow

Don't get me wrong.

I accept that the Serbs committed atrocities, specifically against what the developed world, after WW2 came out against in the rules of warfare.

What I can say, is without a doubt, this is nothing more than a very long conflict, with a very common theme.

OBL, and many of his sympathizers have in their sights to recapture, and subjugate those possessions lost after 2 world wars.

The non-muslims were there before islamist expansionism.

I am willing to see the broader picture in all of this.

635 Arkay  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:23:20pm

Never forgive - Never forget.
>>>

That is as succinct a recipe for evil as I've ever seen.

Serves one. I'll leaver you to consume it.

636 OldLineTexan  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:23:25pm

re: #614 Lucius Septimius

re: #607 grumpy old codger

So many books, so little time.

I do not want more time.

/I saw that Twilight Zone episode.

637 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:23:29pm

re: #631 Arkay

Thank you for answering my questions :)

as for this:

I don't blame people for crimes their ancestors may or may not have committed. There is a word for that: racism.

That is not the correct word. It may be unfair, it may be retaliatory, it may be wrong, - but there is nothing in that statement that speaks to race or racism.

638 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:24:00pm
639 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:24:39pm

re: #632 buzzsawmonkey

the buttocks were left out of the ice box a little too long.

640 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:24:41pm

re: #632 buzzsawmonkey

re: #625 mama winger

Something seems off.

That would be the salmon. Don't touch it.

Dang it! KT gave me that fish!

641 sultan_knish  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:24:56pm

Finally anyone who supports an independent Kosovo had better be prepared to support this

[Link: www.scn.org...]


"The Current Plight of the Kosovo Roma". This groundbreaking report describes the impact of the 1999 NATO intervention and what has happened in the aftermath on the Romani communities in Kosovo. The report shows that 75% of the Roma who lived in Kosovo prior to the bombing have been driven from Kosovo by Albanian extremists. The report also highlights how Romani homes have been burned and destroyed, or occupied by force by others in the aftermath of the bombing campaign. The situation faced by the Roma of Kosovo has tragic implications for the future welfare and viability of their communities.
642 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:25:28pm
643 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:25:41pm

re: #641 sultan_knish

They probably deserved it .

/

644 sultan_knish  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:26:13pm

re: #635 Arkay

Never forgive - Never forget.
>>>

That is as succinct a recipe for evil as I've ever seen.

.

actually no most succinct recipe for evil is...

Forgive, Forget and Pay No Attention When History Bites You in the Ass

just ask Chamberlain

645 Piltdown Man  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:26:19pm

re: #575 bombirannow

re: #548 Piltdown Man
He just believes Islamic propganda!

Yes, I'm a true believer!

646 David IV of Georgia  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:26:21pm

re: #594 formercorpsman

re: #576 sultan_knish

I would not go as far as to say genocide did not happen.

What I can agree with you on, is the United States got involved, letting other hostile islamic players do dirty work, while we did nothing to stop them in Africa.

It DOES NOT add up.

This would be the same America that watched from USN warships and did nothing as the Turks massacred unarmed Greeks and Armenians on the shores of Asia Minor? (cf. George Horton, Consul General of the United States in the Near East, The Blight of Asia)?

647 Catttt  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:27:37pm

The sins of the Clintons live after them, except they're still here. They stink, imho. The scary thing for me is that Senator Big Ears makes Senator Clinton look ALMOST good. Almost.

648 abolitionist  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:27:37pm

re: #401 Globular Cluster

re: #357 GeorgetownPress

You know, it really is amazing that this conflict has gone on for so long and yet nobody seems to really know what the hell happened. Who did what to whom, where, and when? Bias clouds the issue on all sides, and I am left with Wikipedia, which is often part of the problem. I would be nice if people here, one side or the other, offered proof.

I've found Carl Savich's essays at serbianna.com to be rich in historical facts, very detailed, and thoroughly documented with photos, videos, and appropriate citations and hotlinks. They number about 100 now.

649 nyc redneck  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:28:33pm

re: #408 song_and_dance_man

What I love about LGF is the opportunity to learn about things I have only vague knowledge about then others step forward and share what they know on a subject. After reading many of the posts on this thread I am still unsure about a great many thing about this issue, but I'm learning some things and that is a good thing.

i feel the same way. i was tuned out completely to world events at that time. but from what i've learned here it seems there is some hopefulness that a moslem kosovo can actually embrace democracy and set our minds to rest abt islam being nothing more than a 7th century screed of subservience to allah. i delight to see the american flags waved along side of the kosovo flag. the people look western, no burqas on the women. but i keep thinking abt. the 10,000 christians in kosovo. will they be persecuted and have to practice their religion "in private" like the christians in albania? or will they be forced to leave. i'm thinking of the coptic christians in egypt. what a bleak and terrible existence they eek out from collecting and living in garbage. i just know that from all the information i've gotten here in the last yr, moslems are unyielding, aggressive, and committed to spreading islam. also, given that money talks, and has been talking arabic at georgetown university recently, why wouldn't these moslems in kosovo tilt wahabbi pretty quickly. i just don't get a good feeling from this situation.

650 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:30:50pm

I am the first to admit I do not know all I need to know to make good judgments in this Kosovo thing. There are a lot of facts I haven't looked at, and a lot of things I need to read.

What I can say is this:

From past experience, in conflicts and land disputes between muslims and non-muslim populations, it seems to me that there is a pattern of aggression and violence on the part of the muslims. History shows this, current events show this. Muslims take what other people have developed and lay claim to it as their own. This is their self-proclaimed aim.

So forgive me if I have a jaundiced eye in regards to this whole mess. If it comes down to siding with a Western nation against a muslim nation, I am inclined to go West, young man.

651 gymnast  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:31:12pm

The Euros should pay attention to Kosovo and develop contingency plans for the time soon coming when the Muslim segments of their populations declare areas of their countries to be sovereign entities. As a nation, the US should stand back and let the Euros deal with the problem.

652 Arkay  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:31:30pm

For the record: I see today's declaration as a disaster -- a disaster for the people of Kosovo, both Serb and Albanian-speaking. It is regrettable. The place just aion't ready to be independent. The place is in reality going to have to be, like Bosnia, an European-American protectorate-colony for fifty years. Oh well. If we can be in Germany for half a century, I guess we can be here too.

I weep no tears for Serb nationalists crying about churches they haven't occupied for generations. I weep for the poor people who are going to have to live in an ill-run crap hole as a consequence of stupid and evil decisions made in Belgrade two decades ago.

BTW sorry about the typoes. Charles needs to continue his heroic efforts to code this thing. The time lag causes mondo problems.

653 jimbob21  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:31:41pm

re: #624 OldLineTexan

Perhaps you are right and he merely acts like a shill. The kosovo Albanians do indeed love the US--and why shouldn't they? we undertook a massive propaganda and bombing campaign to help them crush the people they couldn't quite finish off in WWII (though the Serbs are resilient people, much like the Jews, and remain unbowed).

The US is not enemies of the Islamists--we are allies of the Islamists. And Kosovo reveals this uncomfortable little factoid. And thus, 30 years of US geopolitical strategy starts to make a lot more sense...

654 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:33:44pm

re: #652 Arkay

I weep for the poor people who are going to have to live in an ill-run crap hole

Are you referring to the Palestinians?

655 formercorpsman  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:33:56pm

re: #646 David IV of Georgia

I really bothers me that I don't have the answers.

I, like most guys want control. Whether it is my thoughts, my actions, my unknowns.

I can understand where Killgore comes from when he states disdain for these kind of topics.

Positions can be very myopic, and of course whatever position you argue is of course the right position.

What I can;t run away from, is the factual history.

As for the banned poster who may have re-appeared, I can say that poster was over the top.

But factually, he was correct with his date at least.

There is no doubt, the western world has a problem. We have an elephant in the room and nobody of any importance is saying anything.

For every video of Serb atrocity, there is another video of a Serb being beheaded, or an Orthodox church that was standing before a muslim ever set foot in the Balkans being desecrated.

This problem will not be going away.

656 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:34:28pm
The time lag causes mondo problems.

I'm not getting any time lag.

657 Arkay  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:34:52pm

From past experience, in conflicts and land disputes between muslims and non-muslim populations, it seems to me that there is a pattern of aggression and violence on the part of the muslims. >>>

Which is why I am unapologetic about defending the Muslims of the former Yugoslavia against Serb propaganda. In this case, the Serbs were wrong to do and act as they did. Just because other Muslims--even most Muslims--have acted as they have, doesn't make what the Serbs did right. In fact, it simply gave the Islamic Nazis and jihadists ammunition.

658 NY Nana  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:35:12pm

re: #471 chubby vegan

OT, but this really sucks big time, and McClain should really think twice about this. I hope that Drudge is really very wrong.


FLASH: McCain advisers will ask White House to deploy president for fundraising but don't want president to appear too often at McCain's side... Developing...

Why doesn't he just spit in the President's face? And he wants his endorsement...I am not very thrilled with President Bush, but this is way beyond the Pale. I will vote for him, as there just is no alternative.

/Very nice guy, McCain.

659 GeorgetownPress  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:36:03pm

re: #530 sultan_knish

re: #530 sultan_knish

re: #518 Arkay


Even if genocide didn't happen in Kosovo, it absolutely happened in Bosnia. 8000 dead Muslim men in five days (7-11 through 7-15) is 0.5% of all Bosnian Muslims. That's genocide by my book.

No 25 percent might be genocide. 0.5 percent is not genocide. It's not even close


Well, perhaps it is not to you, but it is under the Genocide Convention:

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group

Yes, only .5%, but also .5% in only 5 days . Given the context of the fighting, this was an attempt at annihilation. I understand that it is not a "genocide" on par with the Holocaust, Rwanda, or Darfur.; but still a genocide under the Convention.

Genocide should not be defined by the total body count, but instead by the intent. As many antisemites will point out vastly more non-Jews then Jews died during WWII, but the moral difference is clear. Pre-meditated murder will get you no less than 25 years in jail without parole (in my jurisdiction), whereas accidently killing somebody with your car can result in no jail time. In practical terms, both result in a body bag, but in moral terms the difference is stark.

660 formercorpsman  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:37:12pm

re: #652 Arkay

Arkay, Do you think there is room for contrary opinion?

I am not being confrontational with you, as you say, you were there.

What I think we are losing in all of this, is how we let the truly evil players have a hand in the region after we became militarily involved.

We will only pay in the end for this.

661 Arkay  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:38:18pm

#659 GeorgetownPress >>

Thank you.

662 sultan_knish  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:41:02pm

re: #659 GeorgetownPress

it only works if the extermination of a sizable amount of a group was planned or implemented. 0.5 percent is an amount but it's not a sizable amount.

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]


A United Nations court has ruled that Serbian troops did not carry out genocide against ethnic Albanians during Slobodan Milosevic's campaign of aggression in Kosovo from 1998 to 1999.

The controversial ruling by the UN-supervised Supreme Court in the Kosovan capital, Pristina, has angered Albanians, and some UN officials are reported to be preparing to challenge it.

The decision comes as authorities in Serbia begin the excavation of another mass grave believed to contain the bodies of around 50 Kosovar Albanians. Four graves have already been investigated, revealing the remains of 340 victims.

Crimes against humanity and war crimes did take place, it said, but "the exactions committed by Milosevic's regime cannot be qualified as criminal acts of genocide, since their purpose was not the destruction of the Albanian ethnic group... but its forceful departure from Kosovo".

The court, which is comprised of two international judges and one Albanian, was ruling on the case of a Serb, Miroslav Vuckovic, convicted of genocide by a district court in Mitrovica.

663 GeorgetownPress  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:43:44pm

re: #662 sultan_knish

Whoa, I never said that the Serbs committed genocide in Kosovo, in fact (much) earlier I clearly stated that they did not commit genocide in Kosovo. Srebrenica is a different circumstance (that was in the Bosnian war)

664 sultan_knish  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:44:46pm
Here is the size of that hole so far: In November, 2001, what should have been an explosive article appeared in the European edition of the Wall St. Journal. Headlined “Al Qaeda’s Balkan Links,” it read: “For the past 10 years...Ayman al-Zawahiri [bin Laden’s second in command] has operated terrorist training camps [and] weapons of mass destruction factories throughout Albania, Kosovo, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Turkey and Bosnia...Though the Clinton administration had been briefed extensively by the State Department in 1993 on the growing Islamist threat in former Yugoslavia, little was done to follow through...”

[Link: www.frontpagemag.com...]

665 Dom  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:45:26pm

re: #657 Arkay

From past experience, in conflicts and land disputes between muslims and non-muslim populations, it seems to me that there is a pattern of aggression and violence on the part of the muslims. >>>

Which is why I am unapologetic about defending the Muslims of the former Yugoslavia against Serb propaganda. In this case, the Serbs were wrong to do and act as they did. Just because other Muslims--even most Muslims--have acted as they have, doesn't make what the Serbs did right. In fact, it simply gave the Islamic Nazis and jihadists ammunition.

I would be astonished and upset if the vast majority of lizards couldn't agree with that. For that reason I think we should temper any adverse reaction to the emergence of this fledgling Muslim country. If, as it seems, the majority are enamoured of the US, that is a rare thing. God knows Israel would never have done what the Serbs did, and supporters of Israel should not be so quick to draw the parallel that jihadis and certain inflammatory leftists do.

666 Arkay  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:46:12pm

Do you think there is room for contrary opinion?>>

As to whether the genocide of Serbrenica happened? Well, my outlook is pretty well poured in concrete. The stench of what I saw fills my nostrils yet, a decade later. Truly, though, I do not blame those who were not there for being bewildered and not fully understanding the conflict. I breathed and excreted the former Yugoslavia for several years, but I also know that not many have my perspective.

As to whether there were atrocities committed by both sides? Yes. Reasonable people can certainly disagree on this. There were certainly some atrocities committed by the Bosnian Muslims. And by their North African jihadist allies. As well as by the Croats, Albanians, Kosovars, Macedonians...

All I am saying is that the Serbs behaved, in the late conflict, very, very badly. Whatever else has happened, we did exactly the right thing by intervening in 1995. And again in 1999.

667 Piltdown Man  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:46:51pm

re: #611 ploome hineni

re: #606 Piltdown Man

It's easy for me to understand that you believe all Muslims lie all the time (which is a lie in and of itself and demeans you).

you smug condescending asshole

talking to YOU is demeaning

/with your repugnant attitude, I will stop now

I was being nice to you -- more than you deserve. First you blindly deny innocent people were killed even though the killers admit it, then you make the statement that every muslim lies, and all the time, which I rightly pointed out is a crap statement.

Then you have the balls to call me an asshole which is what I should have called you to begin with and been done with you.

668 Highrise  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:46:54pm

Unless something is cut and dry..the hands down right thing to do, I really wish we'd stay out of it. If people want their nation they damn well need to fight for it. It doesn't come cheap as there is no price to put on American blood imo that secures our nation and it's sovereignty.

Seeing people say that "well they are holding American flags" and "let's just wait and see"...just doesn't cut it for me to feel warm and fuzzy, sorry, I wish it did but it just doesn't. Instead it makes me feel even more like we are licking our finger and putting it up into the wind...I don't often like to go solely on hope that it turns out. What happens in another generation when people forget what Americans have done for them? To me there are no easy answers on the surface, perhaps I'll feel differently after reading or maybe I'll just be even MORE confused.

I got some reading to do, I admit I'm ignorant of this subject even though a few times I have tried to read up on it, everything seemed to contradict the other and I was left with throwing my hands up in the air.

Atleast I understand afghanistan (take the taliban to task) and iraq (take out a horrible tyrant and set up a nice base to deal with the coming problems in the ME). I know why we are there. I'm not so sure about this decision though. I've lost confidence in all that bush and condi have done in this second term...

Lastly, I want to thank people who contributed facts, links, perspectives, and life experiences to this subject. I found it helpful.

669 formercorpsman  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:47:12pm

re: #657 Arkay

But Arkay, I think the point some folks are trying to drive home, myslef included, is that althought what you are saying might be true, in the aftermath, what we have allowed is for the wolf to enter the hen house.

The record shows, we allowed the Saudis, and even Iran to have a hand in helping Izetbegovic.

Upon defeating the Soviets in Afghanistan, we know OBL spent time in Bosnia honing his skills for us later on.

There is a case to be made, that perhaps our best of intentions might come back to being a big mistake.

670 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:47:48pm
671 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:48:11pm
672 sultan_knish  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:48:15pm

Daniel Pearl on the Kosovo Genocide Myths

[Link: online.wsj.com...]


By late summer, stories about a Nazi-like body-disposal facility were so widespread that investigators sent a three-man French Gendarmerie team spelunking half a mile down the mine to search for bodies. They found none. Another team analyzed ashes in the furnace. They found no teeth or other signs of burnt bodies.

In Kosovo last spring, Yugoslav forces did heinous things. They expelled hundreds of thousands of ethnic Albanians, burning houses and committing summary executions. It may well be enough to justify the North Atlantic Treaty Organization bombing campaign and the war crimes indictment of Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic.

But other allegations -- indiscriminate mass murder, rape camps, crematoriums, mutilation of the dead -- haven't been borne out in the six months since NATO troops entered Kosovo. Ethnic-Albanian militants, humanitarian organizations, NATO and the news media fed off each other to give genocide rumors credibility. Now, a different picture is emerging.

"Rwanda was a true genocide. Kosovo was ethnic cleansing light," says Emilio Perez Pujol, a Spanish pathologist who exhumed bodies after both conflicts. In his sector of western Kosovo, he says, the United Nations told him to expect as many as 2,000 victims. His team found 187 corpses, none of which showed evidence to confirm local accounts of mutilations.

Some human-rights researchers now say that most killings and burnings occurred in areas where the separatist Kosovo Liberation Army had been active, or in urban streets that backed into rural areas where KLA fighters could infiltrate. They say the Serbs were trying to clear out areas of KLA support, using selective terror, robberies and sporadic killings.

673 NY Nana  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:48:58pm

re: #635 Arkay

Are you referring to the Holocaust?

674 GeorgetownPress  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:52:39pm

re: #662 sultan_knish

Again, I do not use body bags as the pure measure of genocide. In issues of morality, intent is as important as results. Under the Genocide Convention -- and for me as well -- "Direct and public incitement to commit genocide; Attempt to commit genocide; and Complicity in genocide: are all punishable offenses."

Annihilation was the desire, but they only had the means to kill 8000.

675 Dom  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:52:57pm

re: #673 NY Nana

re: #635 Arkay

Are you referring to the Holocaust?

Shouldn't there be a broader lesson for humanity also?

676 Arkay  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:53:14pm

Kosovo was ethnic cleansing light>>>

Indeed. And only because we stopped the Serbs in their tracks before it got rolling did it *stay* "light."

We, having been there, done that and gotten the T-shirt and coffee cup in 1995, Uncle Sam didn't want a matched set... so we acted.

Those here who say "we may yet regret this" are probably, however, right. The Law of Unintended Consequences is the only law that passes both houses every session.

677 Bobibutu  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:56:43pm

re: #445 mama winger

re: #436 sultan_knish

What do you think propelled the Clinton administration to support this particular side? Any thoughts?

The Serbs, altho our allies in WWII, were quite harsh with the muslims. Clinton picked the underdog in the region to support - why? I don't know. Drug runners - bad boyz in general.

678 Dom  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:58:15pm

re: #668 Highrise

Unless something is cut and dry..the hands down right thing to do, I really wish we'd stay out of it.

It's been emphasised a great deal on this thread that prior support for bin Laden turned sour. The reason, I venture, is that after a large measure of cooperation Afghanistan was left to the wolves. I propose that if we don't want Russia or Saudi to get in there, staying out of it would be a great mistake. Kosovo won't have easy times ahead, and there will be plenty of opportunities for them to become bitter.

679 Arkay  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:59:01pm

re: #673 NY Nana

re: #635 Arkay

Are you referring to the Holocaust?
>>>

Suppose for a minute (thank God, an absurd assumption) there were armed gangs of Israelis walking the streets of Germany killing German teenagers for crimes their grandfathers had committed.

Would you not then term "never forgive never forget", used to justify those acts, a recipe for evil?

Even the grandsons of Auschwitz survivors may not kill the grandsons of Auschwitz guards. Or even blame them.

When "never forgive never forget" is used to justify retaliatory acts of evil against those uninvolved in the original atrocities, it is, indeed, a recipe for evil.

680 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:00:20pm

My 2 cents:

The time I spent in Bulgaria I had my eyes opened in quite a big way.

In fact in Bulgaria people still have the opposites when it comes to head shakes and nods. This was done out of necessity for when under the Turkish Yoke, approximately 13XX AD - 18XX AD, the muslims would hold knives under the throats of the christians. The Pravoslav priests spread the word that 'no' means 'yes'and 'yes' now means 'no'. Then when the question by the muslims was posed if the christians would 'deny their God' as the knife was held to their throat, the 'opposite' nod allowed them to keep from getting their heads hacked off.

It took me 3 months to revert back to a normal head shake once back in country.

Now put yourselves in the shoes of being under Muslim reign for approximately 500 years. Their is a town there called "Batak" and it's main cathedral has been turned into a memorial to when the muslims forced the entire village into the church and then barricaded the door. Approximately 4000 people in less than 4000 plus feet of space. (not your typical American style church, more of a rock goliath created from the ground) Cannibalism ensued etc. The bones are still there and there is a visible ring of blood 3 feet high all around the walls.

Then have that existence replaced by your new Communist /Athiest overlords up until 1991 approximately.

Now that translates a little into the neighboring parts with similar stories.

Those have been some of the most abused / subjugated / taken advantage of people.

In short: If I had to make a judgment call, (I am sooo grateful I am not the judge) I am about 68% for the Serbs to keep unity and to fight the 'sharia/caliphate'. I am 32% for the Kosovar since they have taken the abuse as well in many ways. Both have taken it at times in bad ways, yet I know whose ideaology is the most dangerous to allow have it's own 'independence'. What type of precedent does this set?

Hypotheticals.
What happens when Michigan defects? What happens if Russia and China decide to step in and say they, Michigan, have the right and authority to do so? Then they send in troops to ensure it, or they just decide to launch bomb after bomb to hide Putin's newly discovered 'Lewinsky scandal'.

It's a tough call. Don't know if it will help.

681 jimbob21  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:01:16pm

re: #670 song_and_dance_man

Everyone must make their own choice on this one. I'm familiar with the lies the Islamists tell about the Jews. I'm familiar with the lies Western media tells about the Jews (Israel). Thus, I must be quite skeptical of both.

Jared Israel (and Petar Makara) cite from mounds of primary source evidence, and are clearly able to illustrate how Western media sources started lying about the Serbs the moment the US allied with the forces that are enemies of the Serbs. This isn't 'conspiracy theory'. When JI can use Lexis Nexis to show that the NYT says '700,000 were killed at Jasenovac' and only 8 or 10 years later is saying that 'around 100,000 were killed at Jasenovac' (note that I'm just guessing based on memory), then you can rest assured that it is not 'conspiracy' theory. It's 'truth' theory.

Each person must analyze what is logical, and who should get the benefit of the doubt: the victims of WWII concentration camps, who helped save US paratroopers, or the killers in the WWII concentration camps (Husseini and his Bosnian Muslim SS troops). I give all benefit of the doubt to the former.

682 formercorpsman  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:01:36pm

re: #677 Bobibutu

In my opinion, it had to do with power in a volatile post communist dissemblance.

I think we thought we had a greater hand at controlling the situation with an Izetbegovic proxy.

He accepted Lisbon, and we encouraged him thereafter to contradict himself by not accepting it.

As well, I think much of the diplomacy was done by diplomats, without much inclination for history, or the lack of true western style diplomacy from their counter-parts.

683 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:01:43pm
684 NY Nana  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:01:53pm

re: #675 Dom

Shouldn't there be a broader lesson for humanity also?

Yes, but they have apparently not learned it, and even today? They deny, deny, deny. And everything that has happened since? It is called another Holocaust, thus cheapening what happened to the Jews in Europe, over 6 million, while most of the world looked the other way.

I will never forgive, and never forget.

This video makes me weep every time I see it. I was blessed to be a child, safe here, in the USA, when my Grandparents' zt"l families HY"D, in civilized Europe, mostly Lithuania, were incinerated. Only the family of my Anglo-Jewish maternal Grandfather survived.

685 Dom  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:02:41pm

I don't think I could, ploome, for me that's a chilul Hashem. Please try not to be so vicious.

686 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:03:28pm
687 Globular Cluster  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:03:48pm

Israel delays taking stance on independent Kosovo
[Link: haaretz.com...]

Israel is following the developments pertaining to Kosovo's declaration of independence Sunday, and will form its position in the future, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs on Sunday stated in a laconic announcement on the predominantly Muslim region's secession from Serbia earlier in the day.

Officials in Jerusalem have expressed reservations about recognizing Kosovo as an independent state, citing the fact that the secession is unilateral. Several Israeli diplomats said recognizing the declaration could have implications on the Palestinian issue.

"The Government of Serbia considers this decision, made outside the auspices of the United Nations Security Council, illegal," Serbian Deputy Prime Minister Bozidar Djelic said in a statement on the declaration of independence.
Advertisement
Serbia's leaders pledged peaceful resistance after Kosovo's declaration, but some 2,000 angry protesters gathered at the U.S. Embassy in Belgrade to vent their anger at the American backing for the breakaway province. "Kosovo is the heart of Serbia," many chanted.

Meanwhile, Russia tried to block Kosovo's independence during a closed-door emergency session of the UN Security Council on Sunday, saying it is deeply concerned about the safety of Serbs living in the territory.

The 15-member council is deeply divided on the future of Kosovo. Russia backs its close ally Serbia, while the United States, Britain, France and other European Union members are supporting the Kosovo Albanians.

The council met at the request of Russia, which argues that Kosovo's declaration of independence from Serbia made earlier Sunday violates a 1999 council resolution.

In a televised address to the nation on Sunday minutes after its mainly
Albanian province declared independence, Serbian Prime Minister Vojislav Kostunica said Kosovo was propped up unlawfully by the United States which was "ready to violate the international order for its own military interests".

Serbs vow never to give up the territory, in which their history goes back 1,000 years. But the West supports the demand of Kosovo's 2 million ethnic Albanians for their own state, nine years after NATO went to war to save them from Serbian forces.

688 formercorpsman  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:04:14pm

re: #680 Oh no...Sand People!

Pretty good analogy.

689 David IV of Georgia  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:05:00pm

re: #680 Oh no...Sand People!

If I was following Bulgarian custom, they would assume I was following American custom and vice versa, so invariably they would misunderstand me when I just shook my head. I began to always say ne "no" or da "yes" when I shook my head so they woould know exactly what I meant.

690 Bobibutu  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:06:56pm

re: #682 formercorpsman

re: #677 Bobibutu

In my opinion, it had to do with power in a volatile post communist dissemblance.

I think we thought we had a greater hand at controlling the situation with an Izetbegovic proxy.

He accepted Lisbon, and we encouraged him thereafter to contradict himself by not accepting it.

As well, I think much of the diplomacy was done by diplomats, without much inclination for history, or the lack of true western style diplomacy from their counter-parts.

In other words we had our heads up our asses?

691 Globular Cluster  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:07:17pm

re: #679 Arkay

re: #673 NY Nana

re: #635 Arkay
When "never forgive never forget" is used to justify retaliatory acts of evil against those uninvolved in the original atrocities, it is, indeed, a recipe for evil.

(Deuteronomy 24:16) - "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."

(Ezekiel 18:20) - "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."

692 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:07:20pm

re: #689 David IV of Georgia

re: #680 Oh no...Sand People!

If I was following Bulgarian custom, they would assume I was following American custom and vice versa, so invariably they would misunderstand me when I just shook my head. I began to always say ne "no" or da "yes" when I shook my head so they woould know exactly what I meant.

I learned the hardway. Ended up on a bus to Plevin when I was heading to Plovdiv. :)

693 Dom  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:07:57pm

re: #684 NY Nana

re: #675 Dom

Shouldn't there be a broader lesson for humanity also?

Yes, but they have apparently not learned it, and even today? They deny, deny, deny. And everything that has happened since? It is called another Holocaust, thus cheapening what happened to the Jews in Europe, over 6 million, while most of the world looked the other way.

I will never forgive, and never forget.

This video makes me weep every time I see it. I was blessed to be a child, safe here, in the USA, when my Grandparents' zt"l families HY"D, in civilized Europe, mostly Lithuania, were incinerated. Only the family of my Anglo-Jewish maternal Grandfather survived.

NY Nana,

I don't for a moment suggest cheapening the memory of the Holocaust. What I do think is that we have an obligation to watch out for that kind of behaviour wherever and against whomever it occurs. Nobody here, I think, is blind to what jihadists represent. I fear, however, that some are blinded to the racist and thuggish attitudes that nestle alongside national pride in most of Eastern Europe.

694 Carolyn  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:10:14pm

re: #64 David IV of Georgia

With the exception of Albania, pretty much all their neighbors will be rooting for and trying to bring about their speedy demise.

Its not too hard to imagine "Kosovo" bringing US and Russia into conflict.

Does anyone know any actual proof of Serbian atrocities? Or did they come from the same source that claims 2 million dead civilians in Iraq and that Israeli missiles have blown up Lebanese ambulances?

The Serbian Army was largely communist trained, so I wouldn't put it past them to be crude and heavy-handed, but has anyone actually seen proof? Everything I've seen proves to be false.

There are plenty of videos of Serbian heads in boxes though.
I am always on the side of Judeo/Christian people against islam.

695 formercorpsman  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:12:20pm

re: #690 Bobibutu

I think in many ways we have.

In my opinion, after the close of the cold war, we forgot there are other enemies plotting against us.

The Soviets provided a unique geopolitical counter-balance for other players with dominion aspirations.

I still think we have too many diplomats with MBA's, and not enough in history.

696 Arkay  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:13:55pm

The time I spent in Bulgaria I had my eyes opened in quite a big way. >>>

My Irish ancestor buried his family, mouths green from eating grass, in the late 1840s before coming to America.

And this was after 500 or more years of British--English--atrocities: the Cromwellian atrocities, ethnic cleansing of the Irish "to hell or Connaught", the seige of Drogheda, the penal laws, hanging men ^& women for the wearin' of the Green... not to mention the Black and Tans and other atrocities during the war of independence after we left.

Should I hate the British?

No. And I refuse to go there. An Irish-American aquaintance of mine recently threw a drink in my face for "betraying Ireland" because I told him the IRA was a bunch of rotters. (We've only been out of Ireland for 160 years now.)

History is (quoth Sting) a "catalogue of crime." We run the danger of having the abyss stare back at us if we stare into it too long.

Don't forget, but do forgive the living for crimes for which they are not responsible. It ain't that hard.

697 David IV of Georgia  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:15:43pm

re: #692 Oh no...Sand People!

re: #689 David IV of Georgia

re: #680 Oh no...Sand People!

If I was following Bulgarian custom, they would assume I was following American custom and vice versa, so invariably they would misunderstand me when I just shook my head. I began to always say ne "no" or da "yes" when I shook my head so they woould know exactly what I meant.

I learned the hardway. Ended up on a bus to Plevin when I was heading to Plovdiv. :)

Plovdiv is a beautiful town, is it not? Pretty houses that look like they are from some fairy tale and Roman ruins. ( And some nut spray painted on the mountain in huge letters "Greenpeace rules!" when I was there. Funny.)

698 GeorgetownPress  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:16:14pm

re: #696 Arkay

History is (quoth Sting) a "catalogue of crime." We run the danger of having the abyss stare back at us if we stare into it too long.

Don't forget, but do forgive the living for crimes for which they are not responsible. It ain't that hard.


Beautifully stated.

699 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:16:26pm
700 Bobibutu  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:16:47pm

re: #695 formercorpsman

re: #690 Bobibutu

I think in many ways we have.

In my opinion, after the close of the cold war, we forgot there are other enemies plotting against us.

The Soviets provided a unique geopolitical counter-balance for other players with dominion aspirations.

I still think we have too many diplomats with MBA's, and not enough in history.

No kidding! - My dad always encouraged me to take history over any other elective course.

701 sk  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:20:00pm

re: #53 Killgore Trout

Sorry, Kilgore, Albania won't be pro-American for very much longer.

702 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:21:53pm

re: #695 formercorpsman

re: #690 Bobibutu

I think in many ways we have.

In my opinion, after the close of the cold war, we forgot there are other enemies plotting against us.

The Soviets provided a unique geopolitical counter-balance for other players with dominion aspirations.

I still think we have too many diplomats with MBA's, and not enough in history.

I agree along those lines. Imo I think that Washington being so 'secular' etc. had no clue what is really at stake in the war on 'terror'. Cold War / Russia was an understandable enemy. One that we were accustomed to fighting even to the point where we would support Afghanistan and other middle east countries to assuage the Soviet expansion.

Now that they, Russia, are no longer the most pressing group (I believe they are more deadly than ever) the wot has taken the spotlight.
I believe that not only does Washington NOT understand the Islamic enemy, they don't want to. Scary times.

703 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:22:28pm
704 MigueldowninMexico  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:22:40pm

re: #680 Oh no...Sand People!

We're already stacking Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California with Mexicans.
In the moment Mexicans become more than 50% of the population of those States, then it is legal and allowed for them to secede, either returning to Mexico or making their own independent country.

If you agree with this panorama, then you must be very happy that kosovo was stacked with Muslims and snatched off the Christian Slavick world.

Bad, bad precedent.

705 Bobibutu  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:23:33pm

re: #702 Oh no...Sand People!

RGR

706 formercorpsman  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:23:43pm

re: #696 Arkay

True words Arkay, see your point, and taken.

My questions still remain, aside from the angle we have been discussing.

We persuaded Izetbegovic against Tripartition. We guaranteed independent recognition if he stood his ground.

Now we support Israeli sovereignty on this board. Many of us think that if the Palestinians wanted their own state, it could have been a reality by now.

It is not, and will never be.

Why would we wager a possible civil war in the Balkans in the aftermath of the Soviet fall, but still try and facilitate a Palestinian State in Israel with the history as we know it?

I am far from a conspiracy theorist, but I will speak up when things don't make sense.

707 NY Nana  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:23:53pm

re: #693 Dom

I don't for a moment suggest cheapening the memory of the Holocaust. What I do think is that we have an obligation to watch out for that kind of behaviour wherever and against whomever it occurs. Nobody here, I think, is blind to what jihadists represent. I fear, however, that some are blinded to the racist and thuggish attitudes that nestle alongside national pride in most of Eastern Europe.

I see what you mean, and the resurgence of neo-nazism in Europe is getting out of hand, 0ver 60 years after the end of WWII.

Jew hate is rising at an alarming number. I see that it has diminished a bit in the UK, but not nearly enough.

Yes, it is our duty to watch, but on Kosovo? I do not have the best feeling about this. It just seems that there will be yet more war.

708 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:24:22pm

re: #697 David IV of Georgia

re: #692 Oh no...Sand People!

re: #689 David IV of Georgia

re: #680 Oh no...Sand People!If I was following Bulgarian custom, they would assume I was following American custom and vice versa, so invariably they would misunderstand me when I just shook my head. I began to always say ne "no" or da "yes" when I shook my head so they woould know exactly what I meant.

I learned the hardway. Ended up on a bus to Plevin when I was heading to Plovdiv. :)

Plovdiv is a beautiful town, is it not? Pretty houses that look like they are from some fairy tale and Roman ruins. ( And some nut spray painted on the mountain in huge letters "Greenpeace rules!" when I was there. Funny.)

Oh yeah, I was in Plovdiv for 4 months. 'Stariya Grad' the old section of town was way cool.

709 David IV of Georgia  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:26:42pm

re: #698 GeorgetownPress

re: #696 Arkay

History is (quoth Sting) a "catalogue of crime." We run the danger of having the abyss stare back at us if we stare into it too long.

Don't forget, but do forgive the living for crimes for which they are not responsible. It ain't that hard.


Beautifully stated.

While we should learn from history, we should be somewhat lenient and forgiving regarding her crimes. I can't think of any country that has not been unjust in some regard. Whatever we think of the Serb/Kosovar conflict (though those terms are controversial too) we now are faced with a new entity: a Kosovo that claims to be an independent nation. We must try to find the best way to deal with this new "nation".

710 MigueldowninMexico  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:29:50pm

The famous "right of return" for palestinians in Israel is the same story. Stack non-muslim areas with muslims and then make them "independent".
One more step for the ummah to conquer what is rightfully theirs (the world, according to allah's wishes and the whims of salafist preachers).

711 sk  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:31:02pm

Out of curiosity, do people understand that Kosovo just so happens to have a high density of the most important Byzantine church artwork in the whole of Serbia?

712 Bobibutu  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:31:02pm

re: #706 formercorpsman

My head is breakin' trying to get around your question.

713 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:31:27pm

re: #696 Arkay

The time I spent in Bulgaria I had my eyes opened in quite a big way. >>>

My Irish ancestor buried his family, mouths green from eating grass, in the late 1840s before coming to America.

And this was after 500 or more years of British--English--atrocities: the Cromwellian atrocities, ethnic cleansing of the Irish "to hell or Connaught", the seige of Drogheda, the penal laws, hanging men ^& women for the wearin' of the Green... not to mention the Black and Tans and other atrocities during the war of independence after we left.

Should I hate the British?

No. And I refuse to go there. An Irish-American aquaintance of mine recently threw a drink in my face for "betraying Ireland" because I told him the IRA was a bunch of rotters. (We've only been out of Ireland for 160 years now.)

History is (quoth Sting) a "catalogue of crime." We run the danger of having the abyss stare back at us if we stare into it too long.

Don't forget, but do forgive the living for crimes for which they are not responsible. It ain't that hard.

I understand what you are saying. If one side could just say, "Enough of this, let's forgive and forget." That would be great. But being so traditioned and abused, both sides, and knowing that one of those sides, even if you say, "forgive and forget" will either force you to a pay the Dhimmi Tax or just keep on doing what they were doing regardless, I think I would be tempted to join the fray eventually if I were a Serb.

Sounds like I am skeptical of Islam there, well, you are right. The 'RoP's track record isn't that great. Neither is the Serbs.

714 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:31:43pm
715 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:32:00pm

re: #711 sk

Out of curiosity, do people understand that Kosovo just so happens to have a high density of the most important Byzantine church artwork in the whole of Serbia?

Aw don't tell me that.

dang it

Bye Bye Byzantium

716 MigueldowninMexico  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:32:19pm

720+ neighborhoods of France are already blessed by the merciful and righteous way of the shari'a.
Watch the ummah expand more and more!
/And smile with glee.

717 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:33:06pm

re: #716 MigueldowninMexico

Hi Miguel.

you're just full of cheery thoughts tonight aren't you?

:)

718 nyc redneck  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:33:23pm

re: #710 MigueldowninMexico

The famous "right of return" for palestinians in Israel is the same story. Stack non-muslim areas with muslims and then make them "independent".
One more step for the ummah to conquer what is rightfully theirs (the world, according to allah's wishes and the whims of salafist preachers).

hey miguel-chen, you keep talking like that and i'll just sit and plus you. ;0

719 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:34:08pm
720 MigueldowninMexico  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:34:41pm

re: #717 mama winger

re: #716 MigueldowninMexico

Hi Miguel.

you're just full of cheery thoughts tonight aren't you?

:)

Oh yes, I always feel very happy when the ummah takes one step forward :)

/C'mon feel the love!

721 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:35:22pm

re: #720 MigueldowninMexico

Dance with me! Sharia-style !

722 MigueldowninMexico  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:35:25pm

re: #718 nyc redneck

re: #710 MigueldowninMexico


The famous "right of return" for palestinians in Israel is the same story. Stack non-muslim areas with muslims and then make them "independent".
One more step for the ummah to conquer what is rightfully theirs (the world, according to allah's wishes and the whims of salafist preachers).

hey miguel-chen, you keep talking like that and i'll just sit and plus you. ;0

Be my guest ;)

723 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:35:26pm

re: #716 MigueldowninMexico

720+ neighborhoods of France are already blessed by the merciful and righteous way of the shari'a.
Watch the ummah expand more and more!
/And smile with glee.

No joke. I ask myself. What is worse? 'Communist Expansionism' or 'Islamic Expansionism'?

shudder...

724 Bobibutu  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:36:05pm

re: #715 mama winger

re: #711 sk

Out of curiosity, do people understand that Kosovo just so happens to have a high density of the most important Byzantine church artwork in the whole of Serbia?

Aw don't tell me that.

dang it

Bye Bye Byzantium

Sorry Mama - but art work is just not high on the priority list at the present.
/

725 MigueldowninMexico  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:36:38pm

re: #721 mama winger

re: #720 MigueldowninMexico

Dance with me! Sharia-style !

Not with you!
We could be stoned to death...
(Not talking about roll another one here)

Isn't there some young boy that can dance for me?

That is allowed and pleasing to allah :)

726 nyc redneck  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:36:44pm

re: #696 Arkay

The time I spent in Bulgaria I had my eyes opened in quite a big way. >>>

My Irish ancestor buried his family, mouths green from eating grass, in the late 1840s before coming to America.

And this was after 500 or more years of British--English--atrocities: the Cromwellian atrocities, ethnic cleansing of the Irish "to hell or Connaught", the seige of Drogheda, the penal laws, hanging men ^& women for the wearin' of the Green... not to mention the Black and Tans and other atrocities during the war of independence after we left.

Should I hate the British?

No. And I refuse to go there. An Irish-American aquaintance of mine recently threw a drink in my face for "betraying Ireland" because I told him the IRA was a bunch of rotters. (We've only been out of Ireland for 160 years now.)

History is (quoth Sting) a "catalogue of crime." We run the danger of having the abyss stare back at us if we stare into it too long.

Don't forget, but do forgive the living for crimes for which they are not responsible. It ain't that hard.

you have a lot of baggage. i tried to leave mine over there.

727 Arkay  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:37:07pm

(the world, according to allah's wishes and the whims of salafist preachers).>>

Yanno, one wonders where this Wahhabist nonsense would go if we simply restored the Hashemites (these days, the king of Jordan) to their ancient (AD 900? -1918) role as "guardians of the holy places" and got rid of the worthless Saudis and the "Salafists" (basically Islamic Presbyterianistic Cromwellians) they protect? Just askin'. A number of the Muslims I know can't STAND the Salafists. And it ain't taqqiya either.

728 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:37:14pm

re: #724 Bobibutu

:)

yeah. no tears here. It's just the priceless history of Western Civilization. We can get more at K Mart.

729 MigueldowninMexico  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:38:27pm

re: #723 Oh no...Sand People!

re: #716 MigueldowninMexico


720+ neighborhoods of France are already blessed by the merciful and righteous way of the shari'a.
Watch the ummah expand more and more!
/And smile with glee.

No joke. I ask myself. What is worse? 'Communist Expansionism' or 'Islamic Expansionism'?

shudder...

They are both equally fantastic. But commies are on the retreat while islam is on full fledged expansionist mode.

730 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:38:49pm

re: #725 MigueldowninMexico

Not with you!
We could be stoned to death...

Oops! You're right! I used to be Baptist!

(oh - you meant that other religion. Nevermind)

731 David IV of Georgia  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:39:05pm

re: #708 Oh no...Sand People!

I have no definite plans, but I renewed my passport thinking that if it were possible I would like to go back there, God willing.

732 Bobibutu  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:40:08pm

re: #728 mama winger

re: #724 Bobibutu

:)

yeah. no tears here. It's just the priceless history of Western Civilization. We can get more at K Mart.

I would rather look at the originals - as you would. Not a big fan of Chinese re-pros.

733 Dom  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:40:12pm

re: #707 NY Nana

re: #693 Dom

I don't for a moment suggest cheapening the memory of the Holocaust. What I do think is that we have an obligation to watch out for that kind of behaviour wherever and against whomever it occurs. Nobody here, I think, is blind to what jihadists represent. I fear, however, that some are blinded to the racist and thuggish attitudes that nestle alongside national pride in most of Eastern Europe.

I see what you mean, and the resurgence of neo-nazism in Europe is getting out of hand, 0ver 60 years after the end of WWII.

Jew hate is rising at an alarming number. I see that it has diminished a bit in the UK, but not nearly enough.

Yes, it is our duty to watch, but on Kosovo? I do not have the best feeling about this. It just seems that there will be yet more war.

We're agreed there. I don't know how things will turn out either, which is what I said in the first instance, but I would sooner be keeping an eye on the situation, and I'm not at all keen to deny Serbian and Soviet brutality. If any poster were sneeringly to suggest that I think we're better than that, they would be correct.

734 MigueldowninMexico  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:40:27pm

re: #727 Arkay

(the world, according to allah's wishes and the whims of salafist preachers).>>

Yanno, one wonders where this Wahhabist nonsense would go if we simply restored the Hashemites (these days, the king of Jordan) to their ancient (AD 900? -1918) role as "guardians of the holy places" and got rid of the worthless Saudis and the "Salafists" (basically Islamic Presbyterianistic Cromwellians) they protect? Just askin'. A number of the Muslims I know can't STAND the Salafists. And it ain't taqqiya either.

Mama winger is right. I'm in a gloom mood tonight.
Right now the only solution I envision is the Bigel solution.
But that one get's you banned, so I won't elaborate on that.

735 MigueldowninMexico  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:41:33pm

gets

736 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:41:40pm

re: #732 Bobibutu

Some people say it's just art. For me, it's a spiritual connection to the believers that came before me. Family that I do not know, but yet can love through the beautiful representations of our faith.

737 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:42:33pm

I love iconography.

738 MigueldowninMexico  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:43:00pm

re: #737 mama winger

I love iconography.

Look at mine icon ;)

739 Arkay  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:43:02pm

you have a lot of baggage.>>>

No, actually, I don't. That is the point. While I know history, I don't lay awake at night blaming people for shit that happened before my great great great grandpappy was a gleam in his father's eye.

(Now, as for the guy that shoved my head in a toilet in Junior High school... well, let's not go there either, shall we? :-))

I DO however have to speak of the RECENT violence with which I AM familiar. Not to blame every Serb for the actions of a few, but to make clear that just cuz the Muslims were involved it doesn't mean they were in this case at fault.

740 stevieray  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:43:23pm

re: #696 Arkay

I agree with you about the IRA. In my pub crawling days I often came across Young Hibernian fundraisers. They assumed I would be amenable because I have Irish ancestry [roughly half]... they were always taken aback when I refused... terrorism is terrorism, and marxists are marxists. Neither are worth my time or money.

Now how different would the Irish situation be if the Church of England's holy book demanded its followers must conquer all others? If the English would never stop? If the oppression of the past was coming again because their god told them they had to?

That's the problem with Islam. The Koran demands supremacy in all things in all places, and its followers have a 14 century long history of heeding its words. The belief that this time its different, this time they've changed is the wishful thinking of the extinct -- so many strong and urbane civilizations have thought those things and didn't have a chance to live to regret them.

1400 years is enough. The Muslims of today are the same as the Muslims of yesterday. I will not give them the benefit of the doubt... the presumption of peaceful intentions. After all, the Koran hasn't changed, and that is the root of all.

741 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:44:34pm

re: #731 David IV of Georgia

re: #708 Oh no...Sand People!

I have no definite plans, but I renewed my passport thinking that if it were possible I would like to go back there, God willing.

I was there from 97-99, I bet it has changed a bit. I would love to go back.

I was reading the 24 Chasa (24 hour) newspaper when I lived in Sofia and Dolph Lundgren was filming a movie there and the journalist interviewed him and asked why he chose to film in Sofia. Good ol Dolph said that it was the most low cost place they could find where they didn't have to add extra special effects to get a post nuclear holocaust setting. I was busting up.

742 formercorpsman  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:44:47pm

re: #712 Bobibutu

Our foreign policy with respect to Israel, is to foment a Palestinian State, living side by side with Israel, in supposed peace.

Neither the Palestinians, nor regional players are on board with this. They fight it from every angle. To think it will ever happen is a wet dream.

In the aftermath of the Soviet Union, we had three players all ready, and willing to partition their own states, in agreement with each other.

In any situation such as this, nothing is perfect, but they agreed nonetheless.

We encouraged one of the parties to go back on their agreement.

743 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:44:50pm

re: #738 MigueldowninMexico

re: #737 mama winger

I love iconography.

Look at mine icon ;)

Oh that's Beautiful, Miguel! Is that St Michael?

744 MigueldowninMexico  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:45:30pm

re: #743 mama winger

re: #738 MigueldowninMexico


re: #737 mama winger

I love iconography.

Look at mine icon ;)

Oh that's Beautiful, Miguel! Is that St Michael?


Yes, St. Michael.
San Miguel ;)

745 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:46:45pm

re: #744 MigueldowninMexico

Yes, St. Michael.
San Miguel ;)

OH! I get it ! Ha!

I love it, Miguel. I simply love it.

746 Bobibutu  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:47:16pm

re: #736 mama winger

re: #732 Bobibutu

Some people say it's just art. For me, it's a spiritual connection to the believers that came before me. Family that I do not know, but yet can love through the beautiful representations of our faith.

Yep - I've been working back for years now - blows my mind every step.

747 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:47:29pm

re: #744 MigueldowninMexico

I am going to be in southern AZ this coming week, and I plan on visiting some Spanish mission churches. I can't wait.

748 MigueldowninMexico  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:48:00pm

re: #745 mama winger

re: #744 MigueldowninMexico


Yes, St. Michael.
San Miguel ;)

OH! I get it ! Ha!

I love it, Miguel. I simply love it.


Very deep meaning in all of its details.

And Miguel, Michael, means "Who is like God?"
A wonderful battle cry ;)

749 MigueldowninMexico  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:48:45pm

re: #747 mama winger

re: #744 MigueldowninMexico

I am going to be in southern AZ this coming week, and I plan on visiting some Spanish mission churches. I can't wait.

I hope you have a wonderful spiritual experience :)

750 David IV of Georgia  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:48:56pm

re: #715 mama winger

re: #711 sk

Out of curiosity, do people understand that Kosovo just so happens to have a high density of the most important Byzantine church artwork in the whole of Serbia?
Aw don't tell me that.

dang it

Bye Bye Byzantium

My cathedral is being painted in a 12th century style and with the same methods and materials. It is rather expensive. We had to hire an art historian/painter from the other side of the world (Kiev) to do the work for us. He is worth every penny. Art enthusiasts keep visiting our church for some reason...and some of them join us...

751 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:49:00pm

re: #748 MigueldowninMexico

re: #745 mama winger

re: #744 MigueldowninMexico


Yes, St. Michael.
San Miguel ;)


OH! I get it ! Ha!I love it, Miguel. I simply love it.


Very deep meaning in all of its details.

And Miguel, Michael, means "Who is like God?"
A wonderful battle cry ;)

I personally like my updated avatar...for those who watched Conan growing up.:)

752 Bobibutu  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:49:31pm

re: #742 formercorpsman

re: #712 Bobibutu

Our foreign policy with respect to Israel, is to foment a Palestinian State, living side by side with Israel, in supposed peace.

Neither the Palestinians, nor regional players are on board with this. They fight it from every angle. To think it will ever happen is a wet dream.

In the aftermath of the Soviet Union, we had three players all ready, and willing to partition their own states, in agreement with each other.

In any situation such as this, nothing is perfect, but they agreed nonetheless.

We encouraged one of the parties to go back on their agreement.

OK - and? What's new with the State Dept?

753 Silhouette  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:50:05pm

re: #740 stevieray

If the oppression of the past was coming again because their god told them they had to?

Yes. Never confuse defense with revenge. Even when atrocities are committed, condemn them but call them what they are.

754 mama winger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:50:25pm

re: #749 MigueldowninMexico

I will. As you know, I am not Catholic, but I am a big fan :)

goodnight Miguel

goodnight all my dear friends.

755 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:50:37pm

Well, I got to quit for the night.

Later all.

756 MigueldowninMexico  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:52:53pm

re: #750 David IV of Georgia

re: #715 mama winger


re: #711 sk
Out of curiosity, do people understand that Kosovo just so happens to have a high density of the most important Byzantine church artwork in the whole of Serbia?
Aw don't tell me that.
dang it

Bye Bye Byzantium


My cathedral is being painted in a 12th century style and with the same methods and materials. It is rather expensive. We had to hire an art historian/painter from the other side of the world (Kiev) to do the work for us. He is worth every penny. Art enthusiasts keep visiting our church for some reason...and some of them join us...

I used to worship here. Although more modern, it still retains that wonderful Eastern plasticity that enamours me.

Oh, and the Slavonic choir gave me goose pimps so often...

757 Arkay  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:53:30pm

The Muslims of today are the same as the Muslims of yesterday.>>

Actually, no. The humans of today are the same as the humans of yesterday... And each of us has taken one big honkin' chomp out of that apple.

So with the Muslims. We should watch them, yes. But 'cleanse' them? No.

If "muslim youths" set fire to cars, the "muslims youths" who set fire to cars should have their asses thrown in jail and (if not citizens) deported. It doesn't mean we need to deport their mothers, sisters, or kids.

Punish the guilty. Only.

758 MigueldowninMexico  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:54:09pm

re: #754 mama winger

re: #749 MigueldowninMexico

I will. As you know, I am not Catholic, but I am a big fan :)

goodnight Miguel

goodnight all my dear friends.

Good night mama! :)

759 grumpy old codger  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:54:31pm

I'm sure that in kosovo, right now, there are a lot of people waving US flags. That, however, is quite besides the point. Currently, we are perceived as their friends and in the Balkans, "the friend of my enemy is my friend".
The real question will be what happens when our interests and those of Kosovo do not coincide and what happens if the spread of Wahabbism continues. Will we still be "liked" when we do not support them? I think not.

760 MigueldowninMexico  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:54:37pm

re: #755 Oh no...Sand People!

Well, I got to quit for the night.

Later all.

Good night!
And my Conan lose the election! ;)

761 David IV of Georgia  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:55:28pm

re: #737 mama winger

I love iconography.

Don't look to closely at my new avatar then...its an icon "redecorated" by communists.

762 MigueldowninMexico  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:57:17pm

I have to go too.
Good bye all, God bless :)

763 avideditorla.com[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 7:59:03pm
764 NY Nana  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 8:00:13pm

re: #733 Dom

Dom,

Look how long it took for Ireland to reconcile with the UK. I do not think that The Troubles went on anywhere as long as this has gone on...

I hate to be such a downer, but I really think that a war in inevitable between Kosovo and Serbia.

Charles said it best:

I’m not sure whose side to root for in the ethnic Albanian, Kosovo-Serbia morass—there are killers on all sides—and today’s news from Kosovo leaves me with mixed feelings

765 Dom  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 8:01:55pm

re: #710 MigueldowninMexico

The famous "right of return" for palestinians in Israel is the same story. Stack non-muslim areas with muslims and then make them "independent".
One more step for the ummah to conquer what is rightfully theirs (the world, according to allah's wishes and the whims of salafist preachers).

It is not the same story. First of all, it is more akin to creating a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza than it is to a right of return, which is a uniquely spurious demand the Palestinians make. Second, Israel bends over backwards to avoid any sort of fascist behaviour akin to Milosevic. And ploome, who agreed with you there, has the chutzpah to suggest I'm making that very comparison. This independence thing is going ahead regardless. I won't be accepting the argument that there is a parallel to be made, because there isn't.

766 formercorpsman  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 8:04:17pm

re: #765 Dom

But Dom, you can't deny in the process, we have allowed the Saudi to wield influence over what was once a pluralistic islam, to now have a very domineering presence.

767 David IV of Georgia  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 8:06:19pm

I have to go to a new job tomorrow. Reveille for me at 4am... Good night.

768 Arkay  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 8:08:27pm

Likewise. Must go. Homework.

((bows all around))

769 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 8:10:20pm
770 Dom  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 8:17:55pm

re: #764 NY Nana

re: #733 Dom

I hate to be such a downer, but I really think that a war in inevitable between Kosovo and Serbia.

Charles said it best:

I’m not sure whose side to root for in the ethnic Albanian, Kosovo-Serbia morass—there are killers on all sides—and today’s news from Kosovo leaves me with mixed feelings

I feel quite the same, and think we have to take an active interest. I don't think a hell-for leather war on Muslims is remotely sensible, humane or presently worth getting into. The susceptibility of young Muslims to violent movements is something we have to be clever about; civil war in every country everywhere (and you don't come across as supporting anything like, but some do) is obviously not the solution. I see a great tragedy also in how young western Muslims can so easily, through unmonitored immigration and Islamist propagation, and thanks to this internet, be turned into mujahideen. Only yesterday I was checking on a radical forum in which a new member aged 14 was lapping up advice and paranoia from an Egyptian Islamist girl, and countering that paranoia, however dippy it sounds, involves a parallel and very sober battle for hearts and minds. One such battle is unfolding in Kosovo whether we like it or not. This is not about optimism but determination and discernment.

#63 Dom

It's rather complex. On the one hand the KLA are/were notoriously pro-al Qaeda, and their gains have not been achieved without resort to some particularly vile warfare. On the other hand, Russia and Serbia are incomparable to Israel, and seriously brutal in their nationalisms. If anything the Albanians have more reason to identify with post-WWII Jews than with Palestinians. They are also, it goes without saying, extremely grateful to NATO. So I should hope that lasts, and that Islamism has no place in the new Kosovo. I'm with Charles on this, waiting to see, and generally I think we should do all we can to have them onside. NATO ought to have a great deal of sway in influencing this transition and encouraging a liberal ethos.

771 Dom  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 8:19:08pm

re: #766 formercorpsman

re: #765 Dom

But Dom, you can't deny in the process, we have allowed the Saudi to wield influence over what was once a pluralistic islam, to now have a very domineering presence.

Definitely. I don't suggest we sit on our hands about that, and it's a damn good reason not to squander our influence in Kosovo.

772 formercorpsman  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 8:28:53pm

re: #771 Dom

I guess Dom, that is where my dichotomy exists.

It would be one thing to think that somehow a real hope exists within the Balkans, and out of it is born a truly democratic pluralism.

Somehow, I am not optimistic about this.

I would cite the difference with this, and say Iraq, is the local population once sympathetic to the insurgency had to suffer at the hands of the insurgency, with only tacit appeal for troops who have sacrificed everything for them.

I do agree with with you. Doing nothing is not an option. Bold visions, demand bold actions.

The reason I have stayed on this thread for so long, is this is not the run of the mill discussion. Some have run away from the discussion. I choose not. It is very easy to say it was all the Serbs, and take your ball home.

Just like Indonesia, this part of the world has many problems which affect the rest of us.

The albanian mafia distributes most of the world's heroin through the balkans. We in the United States are still talking about reparations for crimes many of us had no involvement in, but slavery is still part of the economy there.

Declaring freedom has a nice appeal, and makes for good photo ops. But having the rubber hit the road, and choosing who you decide to have ride shotgun with you is a whole different ball of wax.

773 Winston Y. Smith  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 8:31:08pm

This is the one of the rare occasions when I agree with Putin (another one is his opinion of Hillary head).

Giving the original Serbs land to the decendants of invading Turks(who called themselves albanians), would be similar to recognizing London or Paris as a muslim countries, when Parisistanies or Londonistanies declare so, as per having a muslim majority. Many Europeans would agree that albanians/kosovars are the nationalities they fear the most, due to the vicious murderous gangs originating from there, turfing away traditional Sicilian mafia from Nothern Italy, for example.

774 marwan's daughter  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 8:33:08pm

Right now I'm neutral. But the potential radicalization of the next generation of Kosovars will not be obvious until at least 10 years later. By then of course, it will be too late.

Sadly there are no good guys in the Balkan region. All groups are equally murderous. The MSM focused too much on Serbian brutality, but all sides have blood. And the US under Bill Clinton just made things worse. Even Bush is not screwing up the Middle East as badly as Clinton messed with the Balkans.

775 restitutor orbis  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 8:42:43pm

I have a feeling that we will soon be rooting for the Serbs. Kind of like we were rooting for Uncle Joe and the Red Armyback in the day. The Serbs certainly are not saints, but I think it will become painfully obvious that they are the closest thing to "good guys" over there.

776 NY Nana  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 8:43:09pm

re: #770 Dom

What the cult of islam does to their children would be considered child abuse anywhere in the civilized world. They inculcate them with a hatred that becomes their raison d'être to exist.

As Golda Meir zt"l said: 'Peace will come to the Middle East when the Arabs love their children more than they hate us.'

I sadly see no sign of this in my lifetime.

And the hatreds and history of Kosovo and Albania are not very encouraging re a real peace.

When John Bolton says that he is not in favor it it? I would love to see him as Sec. of State.

I am going to go off line now...it has not been the best day, and my diabetes is acting up.

777 stevieray  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 8:44:38pm

re: #772 formercorpsman

I would cite the difference with this, and say Iraq, is the local population once sympathetic to the insurgency had to suffer at the hands of the insurgency, with only tacit appeal for troops who have sacrificed everything for them.

It is true that the biggest factor in the turn around in Iraq is the brutality of AQ Iraq... sweet irony that.

I fear that the democracy in Iraq will only last until the pain of the Muslim hardliners has faded, and then the "peace" and "harmony" offered by the Imams and Mullahs will begin swaying the population again... and Iraq will follow Turkey down the slow lane to theocracy. I do not believe a majority Muslim nation can stay democratic for long... democracy is messy and takes much patience, while the sweet words of the [false] prophet offer instant answers and social stability. Islam is not Christianity, and a religious revival in a Muslim nation has a very different outcome than the we see in the many great awakenings in America.

778 Dom  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 8:48:37pm

re: #772 formercorpsman

I wasn't aware of the heroin trafficking. Thanks for raising the issue.

If we leave these problems alone they don't get better. They have a tendency to get drastically worse. Britain left Israel and the Arabs to it. We let Saddam sign an agreement for a quick exit. America left Afghanistan prey to the Taleban. While we have often aimed at moderating the Islamic world, at no point was opposing the Islamic make-up of the Middle East an option. All I can say is it's best we don't become hysterical that we as NATO nations have given rise to a new Muslim country, and we have a responsibility - moral but also strategic - neither simply to turn away at this point, nor to leave Kosovo prone to an anti-western animus.

779 jimbob21  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 8:51:35pm

re: #774 marwan's daughter

The Ruder-Finn orchestrated media campaign against the Serbs was sufficiently successful that nearly everyone says that the Serbs are 'equally' evil as the Islamists. Such is not the case.

The Serbs are a Western valued, Christian orthodox people who had the full forces of Western fascism against them, both in the media and in the covertly trained Islamist terrorist fighters unleashed upon their elderly, their children, and their civilians. Under such circumstance, they fought as honorably as possibly. The rest of it is a pack of lies.

While the Albanians, Bosnian Muslims, and Bosnian/Croatian clerical fascists joined the Nazis during WWII, only the Serbs fought back. Their enemies never changed in the succeeding years--only the propaganda and its power did.

This book was written in 1943 by the wife of a US general:
[Link: www.serbianunity.net...]

Much as I've read the evidence and know that the Jews in Israel have not magically transformed into monsters, with a quest to oppress and torture palestinians, I know that the Serbs have also not done so with regard to the Muslims in that region.

780 Winston Y. Smith  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 8:57:07pm

re: #774 marwan's daughter

Sadly there are no good guys in the Balkan region. All groups are equally murderous.

Wrong. Slovenians are very peaceful, similarly to those Croatians (Dalmatians) who live in coastal cities. There are big differences out there, one has to travel there to understand it. Since the term Balkanization.

781 Dom  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 8:57:48pm

re: #776 NY Nana

re: #770 Dom

What the cult of islam does to their children would be considered child abuse anywhere in the civilized world. They inculcate them with a hatred that becomes their raison d'être to exist.

A lot of them do. For many in the west at least, a Saudi impetus is at fault. Most Pakistanis were fairly well integrated and reasonable neighbours. The Saudis, the Muslim Brotherhood in general and certain Pakistani groups have exported Wahhabism through preachers, mosques, literature, media and terrorist networks, raised funds in a variety of guises as if the whole Muslim ummah should be thankful to them, created the impression of a war on Islam that in fact was a war against the West, and hid behind both real and phony outrages. I hope you got a chance to check my link. And since I'm posting this on the basis you might still be reading, I hope you feel better and have a good night's rest. I like to think this was a menschlich exchange of views and we mostly are mulling the same points and are certainly on the same side as always. :-)

782 Golden Brown  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 9:40:38pm

Why do the Balkan Wars of 1912-1913, leading to world war, spring to mind?

783 Syrah  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 9:46:44pm

Too often, all that we hear of Islam is about the death and misery that accompanies it anywhere in the world where it is found.

Every bomb blast that goes off makes us first suspect that Islamist where involved, and all too often, it turns out to be the case. So much of the violence that we hear taking place in the world is about Muslims behaving badly towards their neighbors and themselves in the name of Islam that I wonder when it will become like a dog biting a man, so easy to think of, so commonplace of thought, that it no longer warrants being reported as or considered news.

I would like to believe that the Kosavars could join the civilized peoples of the world, but with every bomb blast that goes off, I find it more and more difficult to believe that any people who call themselves Muslim can be treated with anything less then a watchfulness and worry.

784 combatwombat  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 11:19:15pm

What a travesty. OF COURSE the Serbs are pissed. They have every right to be. You know what? If some country invaded mine and carved off a peice of it to be an EU vassal-state, I'd be pissed the hell off too.

Putin is pissed off over more than just principle. He also has a Muslim area that would love to declare independence.

785 londonpride  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 11:21:36pm

re: #29 solomonpanting

Ninety percent of Kosovo's 2 million people are ethnic Albanian — most of them secular Muslims — and they see no reason to stay joined to the rest of Christian Orthodox Serbia.

Muslim immigration seems like such a great plan when you put it like that

786 Forever  Sun, Feb 17, 2008 11:46:47pm

This is a total disaster people. And very hypocrite from the USA to support Kosovo in this. I mean, if Kosovo gets what it wants because apprantly there live more muslims than Serbs, why doesn't the West support an independent for BASKENLAND in Northern Spain? Or declare Northern Ireland independent?

Even imagine this: Because there are many Latinos in a certain region in South-West USA and they suddenly want their own state, I demand the USA to give it to them, since they easily give away other country's territory to CRIMINAL minorities such as the Kosovo-Albanian muslim rapers.

787 Forever  Mon, Feb 18, 2008 12:18:26am

Ohh and to add something more: I am certainly not a Russia supporter under Putin or any other ex-KGB employee.

But in the past America supported Saddam Hussein. America funded and supported Osama Bin Laden to fight against the Commies and America supported and funded so many more discutable regimes. A few of them, in example the first two mentioned, turned disastrously against their former ally (USA). I am afraid that with this KOSOVO issue, America is creating again its own frankenstein, but this time on European soil, just to ANNOY Russia.

BTW: I wouldnt be surprised if all this could lead to a WW4.

788 A. van Hilten  Mon, Feb 18, 2008 1:03:05am

Gotta love the deniers on this thread...

#357 GeorgetownPress

1) There was no genocide, although there was an attempt at ethnic cleansing, it was done with surprisingly little violence. The massacres which did occur were two-way and occurred in the context of an insurgency and a counter-insurgency

#415 sultan_knish


I am not a fan of the Serbs but there is no question that the claims of genocide were a lie and promoted by the Clinton administration to intervene on the Muslim side.


#417 ploome hineni

yeah, like the MASSACRES in Jenin


#426 ploome hineni

and like all Muslims do. the muslims created TV atrocities and WE went and bombed the Christian Serbs

#439 jimbob21

re: #434 jimbob21

I'll add that if one reads Milosevic's speech in 1989 at Kosovo field, or studies the Hague tribunal, one will see just how much the Western media lied about the Serbs: they did not call for ethnic cleansing, they did not commit genocide, they never called for 'greater Serbia'. There were no Serb-run concentration or rape camps.

Omarska comes to mind... How 'bout Srebrenica?

David Irving would be proud!

789 Leauki  Mon, Feb 18, 2008 1:35:52am