And when the shit hits the fan, what will President Obama do?

I'm pretty sure there will be badness there, soon.

If it pisses Putin off, er pisses on Putin, it wont be a total waste...

re: #2 least

I'm pretty sure there will be badness there, soon.

There is already much badness there, Muslim infestation don't ya know...

Let us see how fast they can turn into another Chechnya.

I predict we'll be forced to start rooting for the Serbs.

Why not? The peaceful people of Kosovo would never cause trouble for their neighbors... why, they're secular Muslims! What could possibly go wrong?!?!

///

Great. When the Kosovos and the Serbs start duking it out, we can sit back and wath the EU Rapid Reaction Force take care of it.

Oh. Wait.

OT

Sorry to go off topic so quickly but this blew me away...

New Poll: Americans Rank Bill Clinton As 6th Best President In The Country's History!

re: #9 ornery elephant

OT

Sorry to go off topic so quickly but this blew me away...

New Poll: Americans Rank Bill Clinton As 6th Best President In The Country's History!

Philander-wise?

So lies, terror and atrocities do pay off. I think this all came about because the Serbs weren't good at public relations and Madeleine Albright, who suffered through the Third Reich, bought the tale that a new reich was in the making. Now that they have a country, I think it will slide into the darkness no matter how much foreign aid is pumped into it.

In about five years, sooner if the outside troops leave, Kosovo will be a full fledged Islamic republic. The caliphate is ever edging westward and there are no Charles Martel's to stop it.

Just think, with Kosovo independence is a new radical Islamic state to deal with in the future.

Allahu achbar.

Remember the Fort Dix six? They were ethnic Albanians we "rescued".

Charles, root against the Muslims. The Serbians, however bad, don't yearn for global domination.

Moral purity is never possible; we should let ourselves be paralized by its absence.

I'm personally for the move for this reason: A true Muslim country in Europe now gives the strong (read: Danish) leaders a place to tell their pissed off Muslim residents to go that is still in Europe. If nothing else, there is no longer a way to cry that there is "no place for Muslims" in Europe.

And having their own country means that somebody can be held responsible if their citizens act up.

Oops, it should have been "Charles Martels"

re: #1 Syrah

And when the shit hits the fan, what will President Obama do?

Um... host a summit?

re: #9 ornery elephant

I've been watching an interesting documentary from 2004 titled "Bill Clinton: His Life". Obviously, these people never saw it. It's up on Youtube in 12 parts titled "Bill & Hillary Clinton: Their Secret Life". Not sure all of it is believable or provable, but it does make one wonder.

Here are some reasons you should be rooting against the newly-independent Kosovo.

I think in today's world, we just have to root for whoever is not following the religion of death; we may have to do so regardless of the wickedness on the other side, because it's just like the politics here at home: you must choose the lesser of two evils.

It seems that there must be some great cataclysm for the worldwide downhill direction to be changed.

Well - whenever muslims have the numbers their next move is to seize the realstate - Now they'll probably rename it. Kosovstan (Ko-sov-stan)?

It makes me nervous when a country's new flag looks so much like this old one.

Germany - armshield badge of the Albanian volunteers in the 21st Mountain Division ("Waffen Gebirgs Division") of the Waffen-SS, 'Skanderbeg', 1944. The second division of Muslim volunteers (after the 13th Croatian "Handschar" and before the 23rd Croatian "Kama" Division), Skanderbeg was formed in Kosovo in the summer of 1944 and number 6,500 volunteers by September.

Kosovo - wasn't that a song by the Beach Boys?
&#9834 Bosnia, Herzegovina (Oo I don't want to take you)
to Slovenia, Macedonia (Please don't make me take you)
To Croatia, Albania (I don't want to go to)
Serbia, on the Aegean Sea
There's a place called Kosovo,
that's where you don't want to go
to get away from it all
Bodies in the sand
People kicking you off your land
we'll be falling to the ground from a gun of a Serbian man
way down in Kosovo
Bosnia, Herzegovina (Oo I don't want to take you)
to Slovenia, Macedonia (Please don't make me take you)
To Croatia, Albania (I don't want to go)
Down to Kosovo

If we get there fast, then we will die real slow
That's where you don't want to go
Way down to Kosovo
(Seriavjo, where I don't want to go) &#9834
/ don't blame me, I googled it up

The picture that says it all:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

The Kosovar-Albanian Waffen SS division insignia is identical to the new Kosovo state flag.

These guys are evil. As evil as it gets.

Very bad news actually. Here's Julia Gorin who has been warning against this for a very long time:

"But to be a good sport on this special day: Happy Birthday, KKKosova!

Brought to you by the United States of America, the world’s last remaining Superchump. "

Read the whole entry:
[Link: www.juliagorin.com...]

Ninety percent of Kosovo's 2 million people are ethnic Albanian — most of them secular Muslims — and they see no reason to stay joined to the rest of Christian Orthodox Serbia.

Underscoring fears of renewed unrest, an explosion lightly damaged a U.N. building housing a courthouse and a jail in Kosovo's tense north, home to most of its roughly 100,000 minority Serbs. No one was injured. An unexploded grenade was found near a motel that houses EU officials.

Kosovo is still protected by 16,000 NATO-led peacekeepers, and the alliance boosted its patrols over the weekend in hopes of discouraging violence. International police, meanwhile, deployed to back up local forces in the tense north.

Hopefully, what with UN peacekeepers and a "secular" RoP, this doesn't develop into Palistein Light.

re: #1 Syrah

And when the shit hits the fan, what will President Obama do?

blame America...

/no sarc

"Albania, Saudi Arabia first to recognize Kosovo?
17 February 2008 | 17:28 | Source: B92, Beta, Tanjug
BRUSSELS, KOSOVSKA MITROVICA -- Beta says an analysis shows Kosovo's unilateral declaration will first be recognized by some Islamic countries.

The news agency has had insight into the document, put together "by some EU countries", that says the province's independence declaration, rejected by Serbia, will be recognized in "three waves".

Albania, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and some other Muslim countries will lead the way, the report says. .."
[Link: www.b92.net...]

Palestinian shot dead in Beirut clash

A Palestinian man was shot dead during clashes between anti-Syrian Lebanese government supporters and Palestinians close to Hezbollah in Beirut on Sunday, security sources said.

The clash was the latest in a series of sectarian skirmishes over the past two weeks that has raised fears that Lebanon's deepening political crisis was pushing the country closer to civil strife.

The sources said fighting with sticks and stones had broken out between the two sides over political posters in the Sabra area of Beirut. Shots were fired and a Palestinian was wounded.

He later died in hospital.

How many time can we get away with poking our finger in Russia's eye? They do not like this and consider it illegal.

/I wouldn't be surprised if they intervene on the ground here

The connection: "Palestinian" Mufti Haj Amin Al Husseini, Hitler, Himler, Bosnians and Kosovars team up to enstablish Muslim SS divisions:

re: #18 cookielady

re: #1 Syrah

And when the shit hits the fan, what will President Obama do?

Um... host a summit?

And the press would love him for it so long as he didn't actually stand up for or promote US interest in the region.

Yet another case where Muslims emigrate and don't integrate. Are there any Christian or Buddhist enclaves within Muslim countries declaring independence that I don't know of? Oh. That's right. That doesn't happen. Why? Because they're all wiped out the moment they stand up for themselves. Dhimmitude express! All aboard!

re: #35 Syrah

So true!

And so very sad.

Grrr...

re: #33 Killian Bundy

How many time can we get away with poking our finger in Russia's eye? They do not like this and consider it illegal.

I never thought I would agree with the Russians on anything, but I think they're quite knowledgeable and concerned about the islamic threat creeping around their border.

Isn't this whole Serbian "ethnic cleansing" thing a bit of malarky? If anyone can provide some decent links showing it's a myth, I'd be grateful.

...lawmakers pronounced the territory the Republic of Kosovo and pledged to make it a "democratic, multiethnic state."
[...]
Ninety percent of Kosovo's 2 million people are ethnic Albanian — most of them secular Muslims — and they see no reason to stay joined to the rest of Christian Orthodox Serbia.

Methinks this will be an interesting test: the chance of a democracy emerging in Kosovo is directly proportional to the degree of "secularism" in the Muslim population. As we've seen time and again, Islam and democracy appear to be mutually exclusive.

I wouldn't want to be a resident of the Balkans while the world waits to find out what's going to happen.

The whole former Yugoslavia has degenerated into a mess.

There are no easy answers.

I wonder if this could be the precursor of WW4, or a continuation of WW3.

re: #33 Killian Bundy

That will be profoundly interesting, considering they'd have to cross quite a few borders to get there.

re: #23 cookielady

I think in today's world, we just have to root for whoever is not following the religion of death; we may have to do so regardless of the wickedness on the other side, because it's just like the politics here at home: you must choose the lesser of two evils.

It seems that there must be some great cataclysm for the worldwide downhill direction to be changed.

Well said cookielady!

And I would add that in those final days when the ultimate wars are waged and the forces of evil are filling the airs with the dust of their billion feet, the forces of good will stand shoulder to shoulder and no one will be checking i.d. cards as long as their gun barrel or sword takes off the head of the evil ones and no one will be wearing their political party's affiliation on their arm sleeve but they will all be wearing the badge of honor - the blood spray of the followers of a madman.

Remember the SLC mall shooter? Yeah. Kosovar-Muslim Albanian "rescued" ='s 5 kaffirs dead.

Let's give them a state!

Since we're on Europe...took a poll on the Afton Post (English web) from Norway. Story is on Norway's political parties. Reason number 156 why I could never live in Europe...the party that matches me the closest is Christian Democrats...at a 52% match. They have 8 parties, and I can barely get a 50% match? "Conservative" party is 45%. The so called "Center" party matches me at 18%.

If I lived in Norway, I would be considered some kind of crazy right winger.

Heh, one of poll questions is if the work day should be reduced t o6 hours. Heh, I could never be lazy enough to work that little.

[Link: www.aftenposten.no...]

That is one thing that IS certain in this uncertain world--there will be blood before it's over.

#33 Killian Bundy

Have a look at this map just for starters.

Russia would have to cross - at an absolute minimum - Ukraine and Romania, and probably Moldava as well.

That's not going to go over well.

Oh, a caveat to my 'whoever isn't the bad guys...' I don't want any equally bad guys on our side, if you follow me.

re: #44 antishock8

Remember the SLC mall shooter? Yeah. Kosovar-Muslim Albanian "rescued" ='s 5 kaffirs dead.

Let's give them a state!

Actually, he was a Bosnian Muslim, slight difference.

re: #47 Dianna

#33 Killian Bundy

Have a look at this map just for starters.

Russia would have to cross - at an absolute minimum - Ukraine and Romania, and probably Moldava as well.

That's not going to go over well.

Paratroops. The Serbs could invite them in. The Russians have large transport aircraft as well.

re: #26 EC Marm

LOL - a pox on both their houses.

re: #42 Dianna

That will be profoundly interesting, considering they'd have to cross quite a few borders to get there.

Remember when they seized the Pristina airport from under our nose and Wesley Clark almost started WWIV?

/they already have peacekeeping troops there and airlift capability

Many people here seem to be unaware that neighboring Albania is a peaceful Muslim country and probably one of the most pro-America countries in Europe.

I am with you on this ones Charles. I don't know anything about either side. The government that protects the most individual rights I will support, but both governments may be crappy.

re: #50 Colonel Panik

And the Ukrainians, Romanians and whoever else is going to agree to this? I can't see it. The Serbs aren't going to ask them in, and if they do, even if Putin and Company think it's a brilliant idea, they are going to have to ask themselves if they can actually do it.

My suspicion is that they can't. Not via air.

It is going to open can of worms. A lot similar conflicts around Glob. What about Kurds, separated between 4 countries? Former USSR, Russia, even Europe(Corsica for example). And what if Kosovo Serbs(they are living in part of Kosovo on border with Serbia) would like to separate from Kosovo? What about right of Serb refugees from Kosovo?

re: #33 Killian Bundy

How many time can we get away with poking our finger in Russia's eye?

Don't get them mad, they'll fly over a carrier and spit on us.

Speaking of that, if they are giving 6 months notice about those flights...how do they end up over a carrier?

re: #52 Killian Bundy

Killian, the Russians didn't "sieze" Prstina. They were supposed to be coming in there, remember? It was their area of responsibility.

Wesley Clark damned near started a war over something he had no business interfering in.

Whether the policy was the right one or not...that's a different debate.

re: #53 Killgore Trout

After Enver Hoxa, the Albanians are not fooled by promises of paradise.

re: #39 PeaceBeUponHim

Isn't this whole Serbian "ethnic cleansing" thing a bit of malarky? If anyone can provide some decent links showing it's a myth, I'd be grateful.

I would start with Julia Gorin's articles in Jewish World Review. She's a good source as she is not ethnically Serb herself, therefore cannot be accused of having an axe to grind.

The book "Media Cleansing" is another good resource.

Remember, the blogosphere was non-existant, or just barely existant at the time the Balkan wars occurred. The MSM was able to get away with a lot of crap they couldn't have 10 years later.

Any articles written by Canadian Major General Lewis MacKenzie, who saw first hand what reporters were writing about remotely.

re: #53 Killgore Trout

Many people here seem to be unaware that neighboring Albania is a peaceful Muslim country and probably one of the most pro-America countries in Europe.

I didn't know that, but must confess to having had a mental block against Albania for decades (from way back during the Cold War.)

I am for the side that is not preordained to kill me, thus I am for the Serbs. When Clinton was bombing the Serbs, I told everyone that we were bombing the wrong side. I was right then and more so right, now.

As far as ethnic cleansing, check the UN data on the population make up of the area, back in 1980 and than again in 2000.
The area use to be equally divided between Christians and muslims in 1980.
The muslims used guerrilla techniques to drive out the Christians, burning farms and villages and killing off the Christians.
Since the muslims after the attacks blended back into their villages there were little the Serbs could do, except to counter attack by rounding up terrorist age muslims and executing them.

If this is ethnic cleansing well, the muslims did their fair share.

It's rather complex. On the one hand the KLA are/were notoriously pro-al Qaeda, and their gains have not been achieved without resort to some particularly vile warfare. On the other hand, Russia and Serbia are incomparable to Israel, and seriously brutal in their nationalisms. If anything the Albanians have more reason to identify with post-WWII Jews than with Palestinians. They are also, it goes without saying, extremely grateful to NATO. So I should hope that lasts, and that Islamism has no place in the new Kosovo. I'm with Charles on this, waiting to see, and generally I think we should do all we can to have them onside. NATO ought to have a great deal of sway in influencing this transition and encouraging a liberal ethos.

With the exception of Albania, pretty much all their neighbors will be rooting for and trying to bring about their speedy demise.

Its not too hard to imagine "Kosovo" bringing US and Russia into conflict.

Does anyone know any actual proof of Serbian atrocities? Or did they come from the same source that claims 2 million dead civilians in Iraq and that Israeli missiles have blown up Lebanese ambulances?

The Serbian Army was largely communist trained, so I wouldn't put it past them to be crude and heavy-handed, but has anyone actually seen proof? Everything I've seen proves to be false.

"I’m not sure whose side to root for in the ethnic Albanian, Kosovo-Serbia morass.."

Kind of like having to decide whether to root for the Crips or the Bloods.

re: #59 Dianna

re: #53 Killgore Trout

After Enver Hoxa, the Albanians are not fooled by promises of paradise.

The change thing probably would fail as well. OK, no paradise, but you're gonna love the new change deal.

Serbia's constitution isn't horrible. What about Kosovo...

re: #60 Colonel Panik

Ah, yes, MacKenzie! Wasn't he the fellow who lost his temper with the press - who kept asking him why he was merely reporting slaughters and forced evacuations - and snapped, "What would you like me to do? Stab them with a ball-point pen?"

re: #58 Dianna

Killian, the Russians didn't "sieze" Prstina. They were supposed to be coming in there, remember?

They seized the airport and wouldn't let us use it, remember? Once you have the airport . . .

Just who is going to stop them if they really want to intervene?

/and pray tell, as upset as Serbia is over this, why wouldn't they invite the Russians in if this escalates?

nobody expects the student of objectivism! dah dah daaah!

Balkanizing the Balkans is like mashing mashed potatoes

re: #41 Whiterasta

The whole former Yugoslavia has degenerated into a mess.

There are no easy answers.

I wonder if this could be the precursor of WW4, or a continuation of WW3.

What about Slovenia? Weren't they doing fairly well for awhile?

re: #64 David IV of Georgia

Look for yourself.

I don't believe you're going to find what you want to find, however.

I have a friend in the Army serving over there, last I heard. I hear from him every so often. Sent the kids a video last year (Order of the Phoenix in German).

Better stay available with my iChat on in case he checks in. Hope he's doing OK.

re: #22 avideditorla.com

re: #20 Carl in Jerusalem

Here are some reasons you should be rooting against the newly-independent Kosovo.

wow karl great articles. You should submit them as related to the story for the spin off links. But at the same time do you support the ethnic cleansing attempt of the other side? Or do I have my history wrong?

No, I don't support any ethnic cleansing attempts.

A new Muslim-dominant state is never a good thing. When a balanced history of the Balkans gets written from some objective distance, the influence of radical Islamism and Saudi-funded and other itinerant Jihadis in the whole mess will be revealed. The Balkans were once a major Jihad destination for the "mujahhadin" from outside of the area. Their role in creating the situation has not been adequately explored by scholars or the media.

re: #75 Carl in Jerusalem

re: #22 avideditorla.com

re: #20 Carl in Jerusalem

Here are some reasons you should be rooting against the newly-independent Kosovo.

wow karl great articles. You should submit them as related to the story for the spin off links. But at the same time do you support the ethnic cleansing attempt of the other side? Or do I have my history wrong?

No, I don't support any ethnic cleansing attempts.

P.S. If you go up in the spinoff links, you'll see that I posted video footage of Serbian protestors trying to burn down the US embassy in Belgrade this evening.

I'm out. Damn, just when things were getting interesting.

Have a good afternoon.

Would BHO commit against the Russians as clinton did the Serbs? We would be acting as an agent for saudi. That would be the ultimate hijacking.

And didn't Milosovich die in prison laughing at us for being naive?

re: #72 Pvt Bin Jammin

Seems as I saw (a few years ago, not lately) that both Slovenia and Slovakia were doing well.

re: #32 JammieWearingFool

Palestinian shot dead in Beirut clash

A Palestinian man was shot dead during clashes between anti-Syrian Lebanese government supporters and Palestinians close to Hezbollah in Beirut on Sunday, security sources said.The clash was the latest in a series of sectarian skirmishes over the past two weeks that has raised fears that Lebanon's deepening political crisis was pushing the country closer to civil strife.

The sources said fighting with sticks and stones had broken out between the two sides over political posters in the Sabra area of Beirut. Shots were fired and a Palestinian was wounded.

He later died in hospital.

Video of Sunni - Shia clashes in Beirut this weekend here.

Russia called for an emergency session of the U.N. Security Council, which met later Sunday.

1. they met
2. They drafted a letter condeming Israel
3. Meeting adjourned.
4. Hookers , Cuban Cigars and martinis were enjoyed liberally

re: #38 EC Marm

re: #33 Killian Bundy

How many time can we get away with poking our finger in Russia's eye? They do not like this and consider it illegal.

I never thought I would agree with the Russians on anything, but I think they're quite knowledgeable and concerned about the islamic threat creeping around their border.

IMO the Russians are out to restore the USSR and to bury the West. Of course they are concerned with islamic nationalist groups on their borders. I would not mind a bit if the Russians got dragged into a civil war in Kosovo.

re: #64 David IV of Georgia

You can believe whatever conspiracy theories you'd like. If a quick google doesn't turn up suitable evidence for you then you're probably hopeless.

I don't have any mixed feelings, you support the side/s that Islamic terrorists were fighting against. Pretty fucking cut and dry to me. Just because the people fighting back against the Islamic beheaders used brutal means, well, I wish they wouldnt have but they are not like America or Israel or India etc...they are not powerful like us, they either use brutal means or they are wiped clean, like Muslims do to all other weak parties. So ef that, these are the same people who in 2004, I think it was 2004, burnt churches and monastaries and they are they kind of people that delight in killing priests and nuns and beheading people...now you tell me you have mixed feelings? DONT! This is bad news and soon Muslims will wipe out all Serbs, orthodox Christians, from their Jerusalem.
And while I dont know all about this conflict and I do realise there are several sides etc. but I know enough to make my above statement. And the Albanian muslims who are moderate? SO WHAT! Are they gonna stop the church burners and beheaders? Do any Muslims stop them? Or do they profit from their deeds? (And then find themselves in a hell of their own making!) You see them profit today, celebrating their 'independence', but what about tomorrow? They will have to pay the beheaders who helped them win...dont think they wont. (Or they will behead them!)

re: #53 Killgore Trout

Many people here seem to be unaware that neighboring Albania is a peaceful Muslim country and probably one of the most pro-America countries in Europe.

CIA Fact Sheet on Albania:

Muslim 70%, Albanian Orthodox 20%, Roman Catholic 10%
note: percentages are estimates; there are no available current statistics on religious affiliation; all mosques and churches were closed in 1967 and religious observances prohibited; in November 1990, Albania began allowing private religious practice

excerpts from Julia Gorin's ariticle, August of 2004.

And check out this fun headline from Canada's National Post in March of 2002: U.S. supported al-Qaeda cells during Balkan Wars, Fought Serbian troops: "Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda terrorist network has been active in the Balkans for years, most recently helping Kosovo rebels battle for independence from Serbia with the financial and military backing of the United States and NATO...In the years immediately before the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999, the al-Qaeda militants moved into Kosovo...to help ethnic Albanian extremists of the KLA mount their terrorist campaign against Serb targets in the region."

In fact, if we're having trouble finding Osama bin Laden, perhaps it's because we haven't checked Bill Clinton's Kosovo, where he was before 9/11: Bin Laden in Kosovo (Agence France Presse, April 27, 2000): "Osama bin Laden...is in Kosovo, the official Yugoslav news agency Tanjug said...bin Laden 'has found a new refuge in the Balkans, precisely in Kosovo, the nest of European terrorism' ...[He] arrived from Albania after having formed a group of 500 Islamic fighters...to carry out 'terrorist acts' in Kosovo...[and] in the southern region of Serbia."

The picture gets even prettier: Hijackers connected to Albanian terrorist cell (Washington Times, Sept. 18, 2001): "U.S. intelligence officials are investigating ties between the terrorists who carried out airliner attacks and associates of Osama bin Laden based in Albania...KLA members have been trained at bin Laden training camps in Afghanistan."

Can't we just send savior Barak there right now, and let him start the negotiations? Maybe it won't take him longer than, say, a year or two to get things really rolling.

He can come back and pick up his campaign where he left off, when he gets back.

Oh, Bill and Hill should go along, too. We wouldn't want to give an unfair political advantage to anyone, right?

re: #80 pre-Boomer Marine brat
Same here. I haven't heard anything new either.

re: #68 Dianna

re: #60 Colonel Panik

Ah, yes, MacKenzie! Wasn't he the fellow who lost his temper with the press - who kept asking him why he was merely reporting slaughters and forced evacuations - and snapped, "What would you like me to do? Stab them with a ball-point pen?"

Probably. He got in hot water with the MSM for pointing out that, contrary to the MSM's reporting, the Bosnian Serb forces did not massacre women and children at Srebrenica. According to MacKenzie, they did execute captured Bosnian Muslim soldiers, but those same Bosnian muslim soldiers had been involved in atrocities against Bosnian Serbs in the Bihac pocket.

"Those of us who served as UN commanders in Bosnia realized the majority of the media reports were biased to say the least. Whenever we tried to set the record straight we were and continue to be accused of being, "Serbian agents." It's refreshing to see a journalist, not a general, dispel some of the myths that characterized the professional propaganda paid for by two sides in a three-sided civil war."
- Lewis MacKenzie, Major General (ret'd)
UNPROFOR Chief of Staff and
Commander Sector Sarajevo March to August 1992
Author of, Peacekeeper: The Road to Sarajevo, 1993

hmm...is there something I am missing out on? Do we have proof that Kosovo intends to be an Islamic state?

So what if there are a bunch of Muslims living there. Can't do anything about that.

re: #88 macintush

Can't we just send savior Barak there right now, and let him start the negotiations? Maybe it won't take him longer than, say, a year or two to get things really rolling.

He can come back and pick up his campaign where he left off, when he gets back.

Oh, Bill and Hill should go along, too. We wouldn't want to give an unfair political advantage to anyone, right?

Excellent idea. Give the 'yammer' theory a good try.

They seem to be very pro-America.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Can't be all that bad. Very few cultures that don't have blood on their hands...

re: #86 EC Marm

George Bush Albania mania

PRESIDENT Bush got a hero’s welcome in the mainly-Muslim state of Albania yesterday, on the first visit there by a US leader.

Thousands of people ? many wearing top hats designed to look like the US flag ? cheered him in the capital Tirana.

Some even tried to grab him and hug him, leaving him with ruffled hair.

Buildings in the former Communist state were draped in US flags and a 21-gun salute was fired.

A set of commemorative stamps was issued and a street in front of the Parliament was renamed in Mr Bush’s honour.
...
Albania backs the US-led invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan and has sent several hundred of its own troops in support. It wants to join Nato and the EU.

They seem nice.

OT
Woman dies after fall from UN building

UNITED NATIONS - A woman who worked for the United Nations died Sunday after falling from the 19th floor of the U.N.'s Secretariat Building, authorities said.

The official cause of death was to be determined by the medical examiner.

I'm going to go out on a limb here ( pardon the pun ) and say that the cause of death was the pavement

re: #93 Globular Cluster

They seem to be very pro-America.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Can't be all that bad. Very few cultures that don't have blood on their hands...

The red and black flag seems totally benign.

Rocks and hard places indeed.

Lewis MacKenzie does have a firm grip on this neck of the woods and I expect we'll see an article or two soon giving us his take.

On balance hold your noses tight and side with Serbia cause there is no such animal as a secular Muslin anything.

re: #80 pre-Boomer Marine brat

re: #72 Pvt Bin Jammin

Seems as I saw (a few years ago, not lately) that both Slovenia and Slovakia were doing well.

Slovenia is in the North of the former Yugoslavia and is predominantly Catholic. Borders with Austria. There was little fighting between the Slovenes and the other Balkan groups. They were the first part of FRY to secede and fought a brief battle with Yugoslav federal troops and then there was a negotiated settlement IIRC. There are few if any Muslims there.

Slovakia is the western half of the former Czechoslovak Republic and is not a part of the Balkans. They split peacefully after the "Velvet Revolution". Borders Poland and Hungary.

re: #91 Student of Objectivism

Do we have proof that Kosovo intends to be an Islamic state?

Not that I'm aware of. It's likely that they will remain a secular state.

re: #96 debutaunt

re: #93 Globular Cluster

They seem to be very pro-America.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Can't be all that bad. Very few cultures that don't have blood on their hands...

The red and black flag seems totally benign.

Very few flags seem totally benign.

re: #95 shug

OT
Woman dies after fall from UN building

UNITED NATIONS - A woman who worked for the United Nations died Sunday after falling from the 19th floor of the U.N.'s Secretariat Building, authorities said.

The official cause of death was to be determined by the medical examiner.

I'm going to go out on a limb here ( pardon the pun ) and say that the cause of death was the pavement

Cool! A medical examiner in our midst.

Sleaze charge: 'I took drugs, had homo sex with Obama'
Minnesota man takes his case to court, YouTube, $100,000 polygraph challenge

When his story was ignored by the news media, Larry Sinclair made his case last month in a YouTube video, which has now been viewed more than a quarter-million times. And when it was still ignored by the media, Sinclair filed a suit in Minnesota District Court, alleging threats and intimidation by Obama's staff.

Sinclair, who says he is willing to submit to a polygraph test to validate his claims, will now get his chance – thanks to a website offering $10,000 for the right to record it and $100,000 to Sinclair if he passes.

"My motivation for making this public is my desire for a presidential candidate to be honest," Sinclair told WND by telephone. "I didn't want the sex thing to come out. But I think it is important for the candidate to be honest about his drug use as late as 1999."

Sinclair, who lives in Duluth and describes himself as "gay," claims he "personally engaged in sexual activity and personally used illegal drugs in November 1999" with the man who is now the leading Democratic presidential candidate. He claims the activity took place in the back of Sinclair's limousine and occurred again, later, in his hotel. Sinclair also says he personally no longer uses drugs.

In his lawsuit, filed last week, he charges his civil rights have been violated by Obama and the Democratic Party. Named as defendants in the case are the presidential candidate, David Axelrod of AKP Message and Media in Chicago and the Democratic National Committee.

Sinclair charges Obama smoked crack cocaine in the limo while Sinclair snorted powdered cocaine provided by the legislator. He says the two met in an upscale Chicago lounge before leaving in Sinclair's limousine where the drug use and sex took place for the first time ...

Okay, there are apparently no Russian peacekeeping troops currently in Kosovo. They left in 2003.

At his first news conference since his appointment, Rogozin said the terms for Kosovo's independence offered to Serbia were "shameful and defective," and compared them to Treaty of Versailles restrictions imposed on Germany after its defeat in World War I.

The independence dispute has sparked speculation that Russia could send peacekeeping troops to Kosovo in a show of force. But Rogozin said, "I see no possibility of the return of our peacekeeping contingent to Kosovo. It's not necessary to do this."

Kosovo's ethnic Albanian leadership is likely to declare independence within weeks, a move Russia says cannot be accepted without the consent of Serbia, Russia's traditional ally. Putin said last week that Western acknowledgment would be "illegal and immoral."

"It's not the Serbs we are protecting, it's the rules of decent behavior and the architecture of international relations," Rogozin said. He likened recognition of Kosovo's independence to opening a "Pandora's box" that would trigger separatist movements in Europe.

/still, Russia has the capacity to get there in short order if they really want to

re: #91 Student of Objectivism

hmm...is there something I am missing out on? Do we have proof that Kosovo intends to be an Islamic state?

/other than the fact that the population is 90% Muslim?

I agree its tough to find a good guy in this but...

Right now, the Kosovars are waving American flags and love us more than the French, the British or any number of so called allies. The reasonable position to take, now that independence is a done deal, is to trust that we have a little budding friend in the Kosovars and to watch them like a hawk.

As for Serbia, they got themselves into all this starting in 1989 and set about the chain of events that led to this day. So its on them.

re: #104 Killian Bundy

re: #91 Student of Objectivism

hmm...is there something I am missing out on? Do we have proof that Kosovo intends to be an Islamic state?

/other than the fact that the population is 90% Muslim?

So what? Are they threatening Americans?

re: #98 Colonel Panik
Thanks. My paternal grandparents were Slovenian. So glad to hear they are still mostly Catholic. I still would like to visit there some day.

Be sure to view all 15 pictures:

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

I will dissent and say that I am very hopeful about Kosovo independence. Maybe most are Muslim, but they don't seem so in the Saudi sort of way.

re: #94 Killgore Trout

Bush in Albania

Now THAT is fascinating!
Thanks!

BTW, *grin* what th' dickens are you doing read the SUN?! Have they been dumping more white feathers on the decks of French Navy ships or something?

re: #104 Killian Bundy

In fact it seems they are trying to escape religious orthodoxy and remain secular...

UN Security Council Meets on Kosovo

Kosovo's 2 million population is 90 percent ethnic Albanian, mainly secular Muslims, who do not want to be part of Serbia, a predominantly Christian Orthodox nation.

re: #98 Colonel Panik

Thanks. Proves my memory hasn't gone. (yet)

re: #82 shug

Russia called for an emergency session of the U.N. Security Council, which met later Sunday.

1. they met
2. They drafted a letter condeming Israel
3. Meeting adjourned.
4. Hookers , Cuban Cigars and martinis were enjoyed liberally

you forgot the dance around the parking ticket bonfire

re: #59 Dianna

re: #53 Killgore Trout

After Enver Hoxa, the Albanians are not fooled by promises of paradise.

Albanian was made majority Muslim by one of the bloodiest, unrelenting examples of jihad and the Islamification of a population by the sword ever witnessed. Millions of Albanian Christians were slaughtered fighting the Ottomans: indeed, Europe's history would be very different if it weren't for the stubborn resistance by the Albanians.

As for the pro-American stance of Albania today... unfortunately, it is under assault by the usual suspects; that pro-Western outlook may change as the population rediscovers their "roots".

re: #109 pre-Boomer Marine brat

It just came up first on the google search for some reason. Other article mentioned that George is one of the most common baby names in Albania. They love him.

Julia Gorin reviews Chris Deliso's The Coming Balkan Caliphate in Jewish World Review.

From Caliphate, a reader begins to understand that Kosovo, which is already infecting surrounding areas, is run by systematic chaos, everyone alternating roles between gangster and hostage: Albanian leaders/gangsters threaten the Islamists should they target the internationals; al Qaeda threatens Albanians with cutting off their heroin supply if they touch the Islamists; and the internationals are threatened with the understanding that the well-armed Albanians have a virtual gun pointed at our NATO troops should we embark on any unwelcome law enforcement. One begins to understand why the State Department has been repeating the mantra that there are no options other than unconditional independence for Kosovo, as per Albanian demands.

re: #113 buzzsawmonkey

re: #102 LSD

I don't believe it. Obama, if he wanted to engage in the behavior that Sinclair alleges took place, could have done better than Sinclair even on a state senator's salary.

Maybe he wanted a change.

Making dinner, but as I've been watching this story, I've been wondering what Medaura's (sp.) take on this is. Anyone seen her lately?

re: #106 Student of Objectivism

So what? Are they threatening Americans?

No, the question is, does this threaten ethnic Serbs?

/you know Russia's ally

#99 KT

Why is it likely that it will remain a secular state?

If sharia OR comunism falls over people like this, I will be pissed.

re: #101 debutaunt

re: #95 shug

OT
Woman dies after fall from UN building

UNITED NATIONS - A woman who worked for the United Nations died Sunday after falling from the 19th floor of the U.N.'s Secretariat Building, authorities said.
The official cause of death was to be determined by the medical examiner.

I'm going to go out on a limb here ( pardon the pun ) and say that the cause of death was the pavement

Cool! A medical examiner in our midst.

Shug, you're wrong. I saw a news item, with photo, which said she landed on the lawn.

KLA trained by Al Qaeda:

LA rebels train in terrorist camps
By Jerry Seper
THE WASHINGTON TIMES (5/4/99)

Some members of the Kosovo Liberation Army, which has financed its war effort through the sale of heroin, were trained in terrorist camps run by international fugitive Osama bin Laden -- who is wanted in the 1998 bombing of two U.S. embassies in Africa that killed 224 persons, including 12 Americans.
The KLA members, embraced by the Clinton administration in NATO's 41-day bombing campaign to bring Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic to the bargaining table, were trained in secret camps in Afghanistan, Bosnia-Herzegovina and elsewhere, according to newly obtained intelligence reports.
The reports also show that the KLA has enlisted Islamic terrorists -- members of the Mujahideen --as soldiers in its ongoing conflict against Serbia, and that many already have been smuggled into Kosovo to join the fight.
Known to its countrymen as the Ushtria Clirimatare e Kosoves, the KLA has as many as 30,000 members, a number reportedly on the rise as a result of NATO's continuing bombing campaign. The group's leadership, including Agim Ceku, a former Croatian army brigadier general, has rapidly become a political and military force in the Balkans.
The intelligence reports document what is described as a "link" between bin Laden, the fugitive Saudi millionaire, and the KLA --including a common staging area in Tropoje, Albania, a center for Islamic terrorists. The reports said bin Laden's organization, known as al-Qaeda, has both trained and financially supported the KLA.
Many border crossings into Kosovo by "foreign fighters" also have been documented and include veterans of the militant group Islamic Jihad from Bosnia, Chechnya and Afghanistan.
Many of the crossings originated in neighboring Albania and, according to the reports, included parties of up to 50 men.
Jane's International Defense Review, a highly respected British Journal, reported in February that documents found last year on the body of a KLA member showed that he had escorted several volunteers into Kosovo, including more than a dozen Saudi Arabians. Each volunteer carried a passport identifying him as a Macedonian Albanian.

re: #111 pre-Boomer Marine brat

re: #98 Colonel Panik

Thanks. Proves my memory hasn't gone. (yet)

LOL I'm glad to have a few functioning brain cells left as well.

Peaceful "happenings" in Denmark...

re: #119 Killian Bundy

No, the question is, does this threaten ethnic Serbs?

No, I don't think so. See my #110, they don't seem to have any interest in ethnic cleansing and would quickly lose support if they did.

Serbia has been royally screwed by the West. And now we give Kosovo away against Serbia's wishes. A new Muslim state run by a mafia-like terrorist organisation. Just what we wanted; thanks USA, EU etc.

And since we place such a low value on a nation's sovereignty, I suppose that we won't mind if California/ Scotland/ Normandy want independence.

Today is a fucking idiotic day in history. Today we grant legitimacy to the practice of massive illegal immigration followed by enormous birthrates in order to "steal" land from its owners.

Is there a single brain cell in attendance in Western Governments today?

And why is it that we keep on appeasing Muslims? Last time I checked, appeasement doesn't work.

I'm against these guys.

re: #125 Pvt Bin Jammin

Who are you?
Where am I?

re: #121 buzzsawmonkey

re: #117 auldtrafford

There is enough to dislike about Obama as a candidate without descending into the sewer of scurrilous allegations.

You persuaded me; I don't like him.

re: #120 Colin Nelson

Because I think they're much like the Albanians. Very pro-American and secular. They will want to join the EU and continue to become a modern, civilized and peaceful country.

re: #127 Killgore Trout

re: #119 Killian Bundy

No, the question is, does this threaten ethnic Serbs?

No, I don't think so. See my #110, they don't seem to have any interest in ethnic cleansing and would quickly lose support if they did.

They already cleansed 100,000 Serbs (roughly 50% of Kosovo Serbs overall) since NATO came in. And murdered 900 for the flavor.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

I am also against these guys.

re: #129 mama winger

I'm against these guys.

With you on that one.

This is tough for me -- I have Serbian friends and Croatian friends and even some Albanian ones. None of them would trash a church, safe to say, since most of them are either clergy or relatives thereof.

I used to teach a class on Balkan history, but I stopped because it was just too damned depressing.

re: #94 Killgore Trout
Okay, they seem nice. Why is it then that one group of muslims in one country can like us and a slew of other islamic countries want us destroyed?
Mullah influence? Lack of Mullahs?
Absence of Wahabbi/Saudi propaganda?
Outlawing islam in the country for 30 years?
Poverty/lack of oil revenue to wage jihad?

re: #133 Jfundie

Yes, there was a very bloody civil war. I think we all remember it.

re: #135 Lucius Septimius

Depressing is a good word for it. I would also like to add infuriating.

re: #126 Alas

Peaceful "happenings" in Denmark...

[Link: www.liveleak.com...]

[Link: www.youtube.com...]

The first video is of the BZ'erne (squatters) from Undomshuset on Norrebrogade. They've been doing this kind of crap for 25+ years - they'll tear the hell out of the area for little to no reason. I thought they were really for true evicted last year but I guess not.

Kaffiyeh independence in Kosovo.

re: #127 Killgore Trout

No, I don't think so. See my #110, they don't seem to have any interest in ethnic cleansing and would quickly lose support if they did.

Tell that to Serbia and Russia, because they both appear to be really pissed about this at the moment.

/to them, this is a lot like Taiwan declaring independence from China.

re: #138 mama winger

re: #135 Lucius Septimius

Depressing is a good word for it. I would also like to add infuriating.

If you really want to wallow in it, read The Bridge on the Drina, a novel that captures just what a cess pool that region is and how long it's been that way.

re: #130 pre-Boomer Marine brat

re: #125 Pvt Bin Jammin

Who are you?
Where am I?

LOL those are the easy questions. I have to admit I'd be a little slow subtracting by sevens from 200. My poor husband had to have two of those memory tests. Thank God he passed.

Unpleasant historical point to ponder.
Slavic ruthlessness has been one of Europe's few effective counters to Islamic
fanaticism. Think Vlad Tepes, Jan Sobieski, Alexander Suvorov.

re: #138 mama winger

By the way, you know that the last king of Yugoslavia is buried in Libertyville, IL? It's at a Serbian Orthodox monastery on Rt. 21 just before Buckley Road, IIRC. The Lake County Republican Federation used to have their summer picnics there.

re: #142 Lucius Septimius

If you really want to wallow in it, read The Bridge on the Drina, a novel that captures just what a cess pool that region is and how long it's been that way.

gah.

I think I'll pass. I'm already depressed enough as it is. I have to visit my mother this week.

re: #136 EC Marm

That's the million dollar question. I think we can rule out communism; the Chechens seem happy to embrace radical Islam and terrorism. I'm sure the wahabis and terrorists would be more than happy to pour in resources in from all over the world but I suspect they'd be unwelcome. I suspect that the local culture is the key.

re: #95 shug

I think you went out on a ledge.

re: #141 Killian Bundy

Tell that to Serbia and Russia, because they both appear to be really pissed about this at the moment.

Fuck'em.

re: #145 Lucius Septimius

It's at a Serbian Orthodox monastery on Rt. 21 just before Buckley Road, IIRC.

Yes, that's a beautiful place! I have often wanted to go in there - it looks so lovely!

On the other hand, I have an Albanian mosque about a mile up the road from me. The place looks like a tenement for condemned prisoners.

re: #146 mama winger

re: #142 Lucius Septimius

If you really want to wallow in it, read The Bridge on the Drina, a novel that captures just what a cess pool that region is and how long it's been that way.

gah.

I think I'll pass. I'm already depressed enough as it is. I have to visit my mother this week.

Sorry about that. If you need to dump, drop me an email ... think of it as payback for my last email 8^)

re: #150 mama winger

Where on earth is that?

re: #33 Killian Bundy

Putin has some valid points on Kosovo, IMO. He's been highlighting the EU's hypocrisy on this issue (e.g., the EU not recognizing the breakaway Turkish areas of Cyprus).

Then of course there is the whole question as to why we, the US, have to do the heavy lifting to keep peace in the Balkans - shouldn't this be the responsibility of the EU (who is encouraging the Kosovars) and Russians, if indeed it is the responsibility of outsiders to be involved at all?

re: #137 Killgore Trout

re: #133 Jfundie

Yes, there was a very bloody civil war. I think we all remember it.

I'm not talking about the civil war (which was started by the KLA - drug dealing, Al Qaeda trained thugs, btw). This is AFTER the war we're speaking about. (The 2004 riots)

And i find it a bit strange that since you admit it was a bloody civil war, you accept the fact the Dictator Milisevic was captured and died in Hague, while KLA leader got to be a PM of a new NATO-sponsored state. Well, i guess in your opinion Serb blood is just cheaper than "secular muslim" blood.

re: #152 Lucius Septimius

re: #150 mama winger

Where on earth is that?

Corner of Highway H and 60th St. It's surrounded by barbed wire, full of weeds and painted gray. Charming place.

re: #132 Killgore Trout

re: #120 Colin Nelson

Because I think they're much like the Albanians. Very pro-American and secular. They will want to join the EU and continue to become a modern, civilized and peaceful country.

The Pro-American Terrorists.

re: #153 freetoken

Excellent point.

The whole problem is that the former Yugoslav Republics are a stinking mess and it seems there are no good guys.

Just bad guys and worse guys.

No easy answers.

re: #156 Colonel Panik

I think it's worth noting that they were radicalized right here in the US of A. They weren't imported jihadis, they were homegrown.

"I’m not sure whose side to root for in the ethnic Albanian, Kosovo-Serbia morass—there are killers on all sides"

Oh, come on Charles, you've got to be fucking kidding me. There are killers one EVERY side, always. The Serbian government isn't the Milosevic government, they sent him to jail. The Kosovarian government has done nothing of the kind.

Just because you lack a decent background on the situation there, doesn't justify calling it a morass.

A terrible thing happened today. If you try and restrict a nation according to ethnic boundaries, you in the end create racism and give up democratic fundamentals such as empathy and representation of minorities.

John Bolton on Kosovo

re: #160 mama winger

John Bolton on Kosovo

Short version - he thinks this is a bad idea

Saudi-funded restoration efforts in the Balkans...

[Link: www.haverford.edu...]

[Link: antikafirphobia.files.wordpress.com...]

[Link: www.bangla2000.com...]

[Link: www.serbianna.com...]

[Link: sheikyermami.com...]

re: #149 Killgore Trout

Fuck'em.

/how long will they continue to just stand by and bend over?

re: #27 Jfundie

The picture that says it all...

The 2-headed eagle is a symbol much older than the Third Reich. I think it goes back centuries, as a unifying symbol of resistance against the Ottoman Empire.

re: #146 mama winger

re: #142 Lucius Septimius

If you really want to wallow in it, read The Bridge on the Drina, a novel that captures just what a cess pool that region is and how long it's been that way.

gah.

I think I'll pass. I'm already depressed enough as it is. I have to visit my mother this week.

Coincidentally, I'm reading one set there now. It involves all the usual suspects, lying, subterfuge, kidnapping, etc. However, it's a historical romance, set in the Victorian era, so it's not depressing. Heavy for a historical romance, but still - a historical romance.

This last Christmas my friend went back to Macedonia, right next to Kosovo, and was shocked to see ethnic Albanians dressed like ski masked jihadist, walking through the market in Skopje carrying AK-47s. Greater Albania marches on.

re: #165 Cattt

Coincidentally, I'm reading one set there now. It involves all the usual suspects, lying, subterfuge, kidnapping, etc. However, it's a historical romance, set in the Victorian era, so it's not depressing. Heavy for a historical romance, but still - a historical romance.

I take a consistently anti-romance stand.

re: #159 DeMoeial

What about self determination and Democracy? The fact is that although the land was dear to the Serbians and they revere it, they couldn't get enough Serbians to live there when they had the chance.

So, practically speaking, when 90% of a population wants something, it becomes a given that it's going to happen. When they took away the autonomy of Kosovo, the Serbians started the ball rolling for losing it all.

re: #167 mama winger

re: #165 Cattt

Coincidentally, I'm reading one set there now. It involves all the usual suspects, lying, subterfuge, kidnapping, etc. However, it's a historical romance, set in the Victorian era, so it's not depressing. Heavy for a historical romance, but still - a historical romance.

I take a consistently anti-romance stand.

What about Harold Robbins' novels?

re: #167 mama winger

re: #165 Cattt

Coincidentally, I'm reading one set there now. It involves all the usual suspects, lying, subterfuge, kidnapping, etc. However, it's a historical romance, set in the Victorian era, so it's not depressing. Heavy for a historical romance, but still - a historical romance.

I take a consistently anti-romance stand.

Heh. I had not read any until recently, when a sci fi story tricked me into it. Or do you mean romance in general?

re: #169 Lucius Septimius

Nope. Never read one.

re: #171 mama winger

re: #169 Lucius Septimius

Nope. Never read one.

Probably a good thing.

OK, time to put dinner on the table. BBL

re: #170 Cattt

Or do you mean romance in general?

Yes. I am against romance in all forms.

OT
BILL CLINTON SPARS WITH OBAMA SUPPORTER

“I think he even hit me in the face with his hand,” he said.

This guy thinks Bill Clinton hit him in the face, lol? Doesn't someone know when they've been hit in the face?

re: #158 Killgore Trout

re: #156 Colonel Panik

I think it's worth noting that they were radicalized right here in the US of A. They weren't imported jihadis, they were homegrown.

Bullsh**

In an article titled "Behind Kosovo's Façade," Balkans observer Russell Gordon writes:

In many areas young Kosovo Albanians are being converted to the Wahabist faction, and are highly visible in their telltale short haircuts, beards, and ankle-length pants. As well, many Arabs are present from the Middle East and France...Moreover, anti-Western jihadist sermons are now a regular feature at many of the new mosques. Western military intelligence officials have stated that the findings of their investigations into the jihadist terror networks is routinely ignored or blocked by NATO, UN and US officials.
And yet, just one year before his eye-opening bus ride, Mr. Schwartz wrote what many Albanians still claim:

There are not now and never have been, in recent times, 'Muslim militants' in Kosovo, aside from a handful of individuals and some Saudi and other Gulf Arab-state cells operating through relief agencies...No 'international Islamist factions' are present in Kosovo or presently involved with Kosovo. No 'international Islamist factions' were involved in the Kosovo war...Kosovar Muslims are extremely anti-Islamist and pro-American.

Tim Robbin's writes novels?

I haven't checked yet, but I'd be willing to bet that MPACUK blames the Zionists for this.

re: #174 Lively

This guy thinks Bill Clinton hit him in the face, lol? Doesn't someone know when they've been hit in the face?

It depends on what the definition of 'face' is.

Three things.

1. From about 1985 Serbia attempted to convert the artificial Communist confederacy known as Yugoslavia back into the Serb empire it had been when it was destroyed by Germany in 1941. Reviving it was utterly politically stupid, and motivated entirely by the desire to keep the Commies in power. To do so, Serbian socialists turned themselves into, yes, national socialists--and then wilfully proceeded to commit genocide in the name of their idol, the Serb state.

2. Serbs then tried to conquer all their neighbors--Slovenia, nominally; then Croatia (witness the massacre of Vukovar), then almost successfully against Bosnia--and when they ran out of victims, tried it against helpless Kosovo.

3. Lesson: If you're planning on genocidal campaigns, you'd better win the war, because bad things happen to your country when you lose it.

Yes, Kosovo is a political bastard mess--the evil offspring of ancient Turkish imperialism, Serbian national socialism and Communist malfeasance--but it is about 90% the fault of Serbia that things have come to this point. I shed tears for today's mess, but only for the consequences to the people who live there, not for a Serbia which still hasn't figured out it has blood on its hands and that its loss of its "jerusalem" is actually a good thing, as it will break the spell of what can only be called nationalist idolatry. Serbia hasn't owned Kosovo for well nigh half a thousand years. They need to get over it.

PS. Kosovo is almost 50% Christian. Babbling about a "muslim theocratic state" is merely repeating Serb propaganda, not understanding what is really going on.

Given how pro-American the images out of Kosovo are at the moment, as well as the relative absence of headscarfs, car bombs in Belgrade, or calls for jihad against Serbian "infidels," it's difficult for me to imagine Kosovo becoming an islamic-terrorist state. What's more likely is that the country will resemble Albania or Turkey, being predominantly muslim but looking to westernize, join NATO and the EU, etc. My guess is that if Israel officially recognizes Kosovo, then Kosovo will return the favor.

There are truly moderate/secular muslims out there, and we need to have good relations with them. This will further help to discredit the islamists out there and reinforce the "intellectual turbulence" in the islamic world that our victory over Al Qaeda in Iraq is currently producing.

Also, it's now clear that the Cold War is back and it's only a matter of time before Serbia/Yugoslavia is just another Russian puppet state. Making concessions to Serbia and the Russians will just make them more likely to try increasing their overall sphere of influence in eastern europe. We can't afford to appease them right now.

Long story short, one side is definitely "bad" (Serbia/Russia) while the other is probably on our side. Supporting Kosovo independence is probably the wiser course of action.

re: #161 mama winger

re: #160 mama winger

John Bolton on Kosovo

Short version - he thinks this is a bad idea

If Bolton thinks it's a bad idea, it's a bad idea.

OT

Basset hounds, when they get exited and do their woof woof thing, sound like they're losing their minds.

One thing that stood in the way of one statism was the concept of the nation state. These states had been forged across various ethnic and religious boundaries. Now in the name of diversity, we are seeing these torn down.
How long before Catalonia wants separation from Spain, Brittany from France, Wales from the UK, etc.. Every group with a real or perceived gripe will demand "autonomy" and independence. If the Flemms ask for independence and Brussells refuses, who will we side with? Will we allow Paris to interfere with Brittany's secession?
Kosovo is only the beginning. Unfortunately, it will not end here. We have sown the storm and will reap the whirlwind.

re: #182 Cattt

OT

Basset hounds, when they get exited and do their woof woof thing, sound like they're losing their minds.

And look it too.

re: #175 Colonel Panik

They were all in their early 20's and most of them (if not all of them) immigrated over 10 years ago as children. They were radicalized here in America.

re: #156 Colonel Panik

The Pro-American Terrorists.

Good link. Well worth reading. I see that the Wahhabi influence is starting to work its charms.

Serbia has been royally screwed by the West.>>

Boo hoo. One word: Srebrenica.

Nazis are bad, whether Islamo- or Serbian.

re: #182 Cattt

OT

Basset hounds, when they get exited and do their woof woof thing, sound like they're losing their minds.

Think of it as a baritone sonata.

re: #182 Cattt

OT

Basset hounds, when they get exited and do their woof woof thing, sound like they're losing their minds.

Excited, not exited (though being exited would no doubt excite them).

This is purely anecdotal, but I do know a couple of guys in rural Texas, currently running a nice little restaurant business, that are proudly waving the American flag. They and their families were literally saved from certain slaughter by NATO actions and are profoundly grateful. The idea that folks in the newly declared State of Kosovo would be pro-America does not surprise me. I see a real opportunity to promote a counter-Jihad mentality in all of this. I hope folks are smart enough to take advantage.

re: #39 PeaceBeUponHim

Here are about 75 pages detailing mass graves, rape camps et al - done by Serbia in Kosovo [1 MB PDF].

It's not a 'myth'.

re: #188 mama winger

re: #182 Cattt

OT

Basset hounds, when they get exited and do their woof woof thing, sound like they're losing their minds.

Think of it as a baritone sonata.

Good description. It's not just barking - it's a woof chorus.

re: #180 Locke/Demosthenes

There are truly moderate/secular muslims out there, and we need to have good relations with them.

Agreed.

re: #160 mama winger
Thanks mama, I must have read 7 of the spin offs and still feel as if I don't know anything. Bolton makes good points. Spin it off.

Kosovo is now a Wahhabi state in Europe. It's all part of the plan of conquest. There once was a "moderate" Balkan version of Islam. The Saudis, in their inimitable way, have erased all Byzantine and even Ottoman influence with bulldozers and propaganda and rebuilding efforts with Wahhabi strings attached. Today is a sad day indeed. The first Wahhabi state in Europe has been established. It is a shame that the US is supportive.

re: #194 snowcrash

re: #160 mama winger
Thanks mama, I must have read 7 of the spin offs and still feel as if I don't know anything. Bolton makes good points. Spin it off.

Okay - I'll do that. ( Sometimes I forget about the spin-off thingy)

Kosovars celebrating their independence by waving American flags...
Yahoo pic

Celebrants enjoy fireworks marking declaration of independence in Pristina, Kosovo, Sunday, Feb. 17, 2008.

Also see: Yahoo pic

Kosovo's Albanians celebrate in the centre of Pristina February 17, 2008. Kosovo declared independence from Serbia on Sunday, ending a long chapter in the bloody break-up of Yugoslavia.

They seem nice.

re: #185 Killgore Trout

re: #175 Colonel Panik

They were all in their early 20's and most of them (if not all of them) immigrated over 10 years ago as children. They were radicalized here in America.

Perhaps but it does not address the Wahabist influence that is occurring there now, as this article from Front Page Mag illustrates:

One other point of interest is how the Albanians in Kosovo know how to put on a show and dance until they get their way. Right now they have no state, and the U.N. controls most activities in Kosovo, so they kiss up to America, who we all know has the final say in if they get their independence or not. One thing in their capital city that is a bit humorous, are all the dictator-like murals of one particular politician. In Baghdad before the fall of Saddam there were four or five story pictures of Saddam Hussein, well in Pristina Kosovo there are four or five story pictures of Bill Clinton. Clinton as we know was behind the taking of sides in the Kosovo Albanian's conflict with the Serbs of the late 1990s, using American planes to bomb the Serbs several hundred miles north of Kosovo in the Serbian capital of Belgrade. The Kosovo Muslims are of course grateful for this, yet I spoke with several dozen of them about their allegiances and it was blatantly clear that their allegiance was to the east, towards Mecca, and certainly not to the west. Where will their allegiances be once they get their way and have an independent state? Considering the continual bombardment of Saudi money and Wahabist indoctrination in most every mosque and every school in Kosovo? I saw the Saudi flag on more than one occasion while there, and even saw many of the U.N. workers driving around wearing full hijab Islamic head coverings, quite comforting considering the U.N. is suppose to protect the Christians who live there if they are attacked. But in 2003 we saw an uprising against the Christians where many churches were destroyed and Christians killed, and the U.N. troops all ran away.

re: #195 Alas

Don't be stupid.

re: #183 grumpy old codger

[...]
How long before Catalonia wants separation from Spain, Brittany from France, Wales from the UK, etc.. Every group with a real or perceived gripe will demand "autonomy" and independence. If the Flemms ask for independence and Brussells refuses, who will we side with? Will we allow Paris to interfere with Brittany's secession?
Kosovo is only the beginning. Unfortunately, it will not end here. We have sown the storm and will reap the whirlwind.

Yes, that is one of the counter arguments (to the pro Kosovo independence.) It is a "slippery slope" argument... but still must be a concern.

re: #198 Colonel Panik

I know there's a lot of anti-Muslim hysteria, I say give them a chance. I will support their attempts to have a stable secular democracy until given reason not to.

re: #198 Colonel Panik

The Kosovo Muslims are of course grateful for this, yet I spoke with several dozen of them about their allegiances and it was blatantly clear that their allegiance was to the east, towards Mecca, and certainly not to the west. Where will their allegiances be once they get their way and have an independent state? Considering the continual bombardment of Saudi money and Wahabist indoctrination in most every mosque and every school in Kosovo? I saw the Saudi flag on more than one occasion while there, and even saw many of the U.N. workers driving around wearing full hijab Islamic head coverings, quite comforting considering the U.N. is suppose to protect the Christians who live there if they are attacked.

sobering

re: #198 Colonel Panik

P.S. Name a country without Suadi wahabi influence. UK and the US certainly aren't on the list.

re: #201 Killgore Trout

re: #198 Colonel Panik

I know there's a lot of anti-Muslim hysteria, I say give them a chance. I will support their attempts to have a stable secular democracy until given reason not to.

"trust, but verify"

re: #199 Killgore Trout
I think you should really take the time to slowly read the link in #156 with an open mind and filter it through your knowledge of islam. One picture may be worth a thousand words, but sometimes that picture is propaganda.

re: #179 Arkay

Kosovo is almost 50% Christian.

Got a linky for that? The population is 90% ethnic Albanian (10% Christians).

/you're not even remotely close

First of all, the issues of historic Israel and historic Yugoslavia are not parallel.

In the case of Yugos, I don't blame either terrorist side for wanting to separate from the other terrorist side.

After the divorce, if one side starts launching rockets at the other side like Hamas launching rockets against Sderot, or like Germans launching rockets against innocent people, then it's a new score card.

re: #205 EC Marm

I read it. It completely ignores the fact that they were radicalized here in the US. They didn't come here as jihadis, they came here as children and were turned into terrorists on American soil. That's the real problem, not Kosovo.

...

re: #210 avideditorla.com

No.

re: #203 Killgore Trout

re: #198 Colonel Panik

P.S. Name a country without Suadi wahabi influence. UK and the US certainly aren't on the list.

And that's a reason to support expansion of it? Lame argument, Trout.

re: #208 Killgore Trout
I wasn't disagreeing with you over that. It was your reply to #195. You seem to be convinced from a couple of photographs of U.S. flags waving that they are not being now influence by Wahhabis.

re: #160 mama winger

John Bolton on Kosovo

I guess John Bolton has fallen under the sway of Serbian propaganda.

/sarc

re: #201 Killgore Trout

Exactly right. We should simplify foreign affairs and make foreign relations similar to the way we carry on our own personal relationships. In our own personal dealings with people we are more inclined to side with people who like us rather than dislike us.

The most extreme example is the Palestinians. To my mind, Americans should watch them celebrate after 9/11 and that should be it, game over. After watching that, why would we even slightly take their feelings into consideration on anything?

In this case, the Kosovars have warm feelings toward the US and are busy praising and thanking the US. The Serbians on the other hand, have always cast their lot with Russia and although they may not hate us with a passion, we know they look to the East.

So there is no question in my mind that the Kosovars need to be given a chance and we may have a new little friend to hang out with.

re: #206 Killian Bundy

EWTN in 2007 numbered Catholics in Albania at approximately 1400 people. The main religion is listed as Sunni Muslim.

avideditorla.com (#210),

I think you're confused. It's Alas' job to back up his contentions, not Killgore Trout's to disprove them.

re: #123 pre-Boomer Marine brat

re: #101 debutaunt

re: #95 shug

OT
Woman dies after fall from UN building

UNITED NATIONS - A woman who worked for the United Nations died Sunday after falling from the 19th floor of the U.N.'s Secretariat Building, authorities said.
The official cause of death was to be determined by the medical examiner.

I'm going to go out on a limb here ( pardon the pun ) and say that the cause of death was the pavement

Cool! A medical examiner in our midst.

Shug, you're wrong. I saw a news item, with photo, which said she landed on the lawn.

Either way, it's not the fall that kills you, it's the sudden stop at the end. :D :D :D :D

The animosity between the Albanians & the Serbs goes back to the conquest of the Ottoman Empire.
The Albanians converted to Islam & busily set out helping to kill the Serbs who clung to Christianity.
In World War 11 the Serbs sided with the allies, mainly Russia, while the Albanians sides with the Axis. Many became SS troops.
When Clinton decided to go in & support the Muslims, there was nothing to indicate that the Serbs were even a bit worse than the Albanians.
Their biggest transgression to a president who needed a distraction is they were winning

re: #199 Killgore Trout

re: #195 Alas

Don't be stupid.

Look at the facts, KT. The evidence of Saudi efforts to reshape the Balkans by erasing the cultural and architectural past and replacing history with Wahhabism is out there on the Internet.

re: #214 Colonel Panik

He always was a little suspicious. :)

re: #219 opnion

The animosity between the Albanians & the Serbs goes back to the conquest of the Ottoman Empire.
The Albanians converted to Islam & busily set out helping to kill the Serbs who clung to Christianity.
In World War 11 the Serbs sided with the allies, mainly Russia, while the Albanians sides with the Axis. Many became SS troops.
When Clinton decided to go in & support the Muslims, there was nothing to indicate that the Serbs were even a bit worse than the Albanians.
Their biggest transgression to a president who needed a distraction is they were winning

THE CROATS AND MUSLIMS WERE BOTH ALLIES OF THE NAZIS THE SERBS WEREN'T THE CROATS AND MUSLIMS BUTCHERED JEWS AND SERBS IN THE SAME DEATH CAMP

re: #220 Alas

How many terrorists has Kosvo produced recently? I can guarantee you less than the UK. Less than Spain. Less than Denmark. If there are moves to install sharia I will be happy to stand corrected. But from what I can tell they want to form a secular democracy. I think the move should be supported.

The Muslim countries of the world are pressuring the "west" EU and USA to side with the muslims in this conflict, the Serbs literally have NOTHING to offer the US so why should the US side with the Serbs? becuase its the right thing to do? LOL!

Im routing for the Serbs on this one and i always have. wE in the west were duped in the 1990's by the media to side with the Muslims simply becuase of the geo-politics. The Serbs are allied with russia and the Croats and and Muslims side with us. It turns out that most of the "genocide" stories were horse hockey and what atrocities did happen were committed by both sides. Before ANYONE makes a decision about this i suggest they REALLY and i do mean REALLY look into it. Because the problem is the US Gov't is going to take the side of the Muslims regardless of the facts on the ground.

Some people say the Kosovars and the Albanians our Pro-US, well guess what? that is only because they can get something out of it. WE abandon them and they'll blame us just like the Pakis and Afghanis did after the Soviet union was driven out. The plain fact is the Muslims of the Balkans have been driving out christians there for 500 years. And of course the West is complicit in this. When the christians of the Balkans tried to revolt with the help of Russia in the 19th century guess who Opposed it and helped Turkey? Why England of course! It was all about beating Russia and maintaining a balance of power to them, they could give a damn about what happened to the Christians in the Balkans. This situation is no different.

re: #222 avideditorla.com

re: #220 Alas

Alas I am with you on this point of view. But do you have and proof of Kosovo being Wahhabi?

You may find something here in this article .

Sorry to chime in so late...

There are a few problems with this, that I don't know where to begin. I guess I will take the sensible view first, and that is that as soon as this happens, you will see other areas doing the same thing, i.e. Chechnya, Georgia, Kurdistan, some suburbs of Paris, London, Amsterdam, and Detroit. After that, if we don't give in, intifadas, fatwas and jihads will be declared in all of these areas.

Secondly, Kosovo has been an ally of al Qaeda, burning churches and raging their own persecution prior to the Serbian conflict.

Thirdly, if Kosovo becomes independent, the U.S. is almost required to acknowledge its validity because of Clinton (although there has been precedence set for administrations to not whole-heartedly back previous administrations policies.). If we back them, then we have to back any move by the Kurds to have their own state, putting the stability of Iraq and the Kurds at risk. At that point, it would be hard to not appear to be hypocritical in our policies.

As much as I would like to disagree with Russia on this one, I see their point.

re: #219 opnion

The animosity between the Albanians & the Serbs goes back to the conquest of the Ottoman Empire.
The Albanians converted to Islam & busily set out helping to kill the Serbs who clung to Christianity.
In World War 11 the Serbs sided with the allies, mainly Russia, while the Albanians sides with the Axis. Many became SS troops.
When Clinton decided to go in & support the Muslims, there was nothing to indicate that the Serbs were even a bit worse than the Albanians.
Their biggest transgression to a president who needed a distraction is they were winning

Actually, the Serbs looked to the West in WWII. They saved over 500 American and British pilots from capture by the Nazis and the Nazi allied Croat Ustashe and Bosnian Muslims.

Draza Mihailovic was betrayed by Soviet double agents in British Intelligence who supported the Communist Tito. Does the name Kim Philby ring a bell?

THE CROATS AND MUSLIMS WERE BOTH ALLIES OF THE NAZIS THE SERBS WEREN'T THE CROATS AND MUSLIMS BUTCHERED JEWS AND SERBS IN THE SAME DEATH CAMPTHE CROATS AND MUSLIMS WERE BOTH ALLIES OF THE NAZIS THE SERBS WEREN'T THE CROATS AND MUSLIMS BUTCHERED JEWS AND SERBS IN THE SAME DEATH CAMP>>

Yeah, that was 65 years ago. 13 years ago? Srebrenica. And I assure you 8000 Muslims didn't tie their own hands behind their backs and shoot themselves in the base of their skulls with Serb rifles.

Any moral zorch the Serbs claim was lost in 1995. Screw 'em.

Here's another one...
Pic

Kosovar Albanians dance with an American flag in Kosovska Mitrovica, Kosovo, while celebrating the upcoming independence of Kosovo, Feb. 17, 2008. AP

re: #229 Arkay

Yeah, that was 65 years ago.

So it means nothing?

I don't understand the knee-jerk reaction to this Kosovo thing given the fact that Iraq is certainly Muslim as well. If there is an opportunity to create an anti-Wahabbi State, should it not be given a go? Should the waving of American flags not be encouraged and not disparaged?

Why don't we just go back to city-states and call it a day.

Or take it a step further. We can all just live in tribal families.

Any time Russia is pitted against Islam, is time for some popcorn.

re: #233 mama winger

Why don't we just go back to city-states and call it a day.

That is the way much of the world is heading... warring city-states.

Kosovo's 2 million population is 90 percent ethnic Albanian, mainly secular Muslims, who do not want to be part of Serbia, a predominantly Christian Orthodox nation.

Why not if they are so secular, tolerant, and peace loving?

re: #236 stevieray

re: #233 mama winger

Why don't we just go back to city-states and call it a day.

That is the way much of the world is heading... warring city-states.

Yep. When George H.W. Bush talked about the New World Order in 1988, I wonder if this is what he meant.

re: #232 The Shadow Do

It doesn't happen much these days but this does happen here sometimes. It's sad to see people openly supporting Melosivich and conspiracy theories that war crimes didn't occur.

re: #231 mama winger
A moderate in the Balkans is someone who will overlook an insult after 7 or 8 generations. Remember Cer Mountain in 1385?

re: #240 grumpy old codger

re: #231 mama winger
A moderate in the Balkans is someone who will overlook an insult after 7 or 8 generations. Remember Cer Mountain in 1385?

Kinda like the Hatfields and the McCoys, but with more cowbell.

re: #241 buzzsawmonkey

City-states would be a New World Disorder, not a new world order.

And here we go . I never liked that New World Order thingy anyway. It creeped me out.

re: #164 abolitionist

re: #27 Jfundie

The picture that says it all...

The 2-headed eagle is a symbol much older than the Third Reich. I think it goes back centuries, as a unifying symbol of resistance against the Ottoman Empire.

What did Charles say about Odin's cross? I truly wonder how Albanians felt natural with using their insignia for the Waffen SS unit and continue using it, while ire: #229 Arkay

THE CROATS AND MUSLIMS WERE BOTH ALLIES OF THE NAZIS THE SERBS WEREN'T THE CROATS AND MUSLIMS BUTCHERED JEWS AND SERBS IN THE SAME DEATH CAMPTHE CROATS AND MUSLIMS WERE BOTH ALLIES OF THE NAZIS THE SERBS WEREN'T THE CROATS AND MUSLIMS BUTCHERED JEWS AND SERBS IN THE SAME DEATH CAMP>>

Yeah, that was 65 years ago. 13 years ago? Srebrenica. And I assure you 8000 Muslims didn't tie their own hands behind their backs and shoot themselves in the base of their skulls with Serb rifles.

Any moral zorch the Serbs claim was lost in 1995. Screw 'em.

65 years ago, 6 million of my people (including some of my family) were slaughtered by the allies of Croatians and Balkan Muslims. The only ones who stood for them in that area were the Serbs.

It still matters to me very much. Never forgive - Never forget.

re: #239 Killgore Trout

re: #232 The Shadow Do

It doesn't happen much these days but this does happen here sometimes. It's sad to see people openly supporting Melosivich and conspiracy theories that war crimes didn't occur.

Sad indeed.

The Shadow Do (#232),

Should the waving of American flags not be encouraged and not disparaged?

Apparently it's some sort of ploy based on political expediency.

You know, because when you're dancing in the streets in celebration you make decisions about what flag to wave with an eye toward what future diplomacy reward might be garnered by your duplicitous action.

I don't see anyone here openly supporting Melosivich. Did I miss something?

re: #246 Geepers

The Shadow Do (#232),

Should the waving of American flags not be encouraged and not disparaged?

Apparently it's some sort of ploy based on political expediency.

You know, because when you're dancing in the streets in celebration you make decisions about what flag to wave with an eye toward what future diplomacy reward might be garnered by your duplicitous action.

Seems a tad too convoluted to me.

re: #181 Colonel Panik

re: #161 mama winger

re: #160 mama winger

John Bolton on Kosovo

Short version - he thinks this is a bad idea

If Bolton thinks it's a bad idea, it's a bad idea.

Speaking of Bolton. WTF was up with the Donks trying to indict him or some such thing this past week? That thing that caused the Republicans to all get up and walk out and then publicly berate them? (Which, of course, they absolutely deserved, in several playing-decks worth of spades.) What was it the Donks think he did that they want to charge him for? Other than, "Well, he's a flunky for Bush," that is. What specific, objectifiable crime do they think he committed?

All the cranky murdering people - go way the heck over there.

All the fun folks - hang around here.

At the end of the day, to use an overwrought phrase, I don't think anyone on either side has convinced anyone. Those of us who feel the mainstream media downplayed Bosnian and Albanian Muslim and Croat Neo-Ustashe atrocities against the Serbs and exaggerated Serb atrocities and continue to ignore the ongoing militant Islamist infiltration of the Balkans will continue to feel that way and those who think the Bosnian and Albanian Muslims are secular Europeans and the Serbs the new Nazis will continue in their belief.

I think part of it has to do with the fact that some people think that denying the MSM's credence over the Balkan wars of the 1990's will legitimize Holocaust denial. If that is truly the case, then why are some of the most prominent critics of our Balkan policy Jewish, such as Julia Gorin?

Only time will tell who is right.

re: #222 avideditorla.com

re: #220 Alas

re: #199 Killgore Trout

re: #195 Alas

Don't be stupid.

Look at the facts, KT. The evidence of Saudi efforts to reshape the Balkans by erasing the cultural and architectural past and replacing history with Wahhabism is out there on the Internet.

Alas I am with you on this point of view. But do you have and proof of Kosovo being Wahhabi?

The program of Saudi tampering in the Balkans is no secret and over a decade old. It's a program of destroying Byzantine churches that were converted to mosques and also destroying "moderate" Ottoman-style Islamic influences and replacing them with generic Saudi-style mega-mosques and all the attendant Wahhabi propaganda that goes with that. There are a huge number of Internet references on the issue, a few being:

Harvard University Fine Arts librarian Andras Riedlmayer, the co-author of a survey of Kosovo's war-damaged architectural sites, is outraged by the Saudi demolition program.

"Unfortunately, a Saudi aid agency got permits from the local reconstruction agency and from the local institute for the preservation of monuments to work on the restoration, so to speak, of the Hadum mosque complex in the center of the historic district."

[Link: www.bangla2000.com...]

This is an "optional" crisis. We cannot overlook the fact that the dominant element in the local Albanian administration are commanders from the so-called Kosovo Liberation Army that have known ties to the global jihad movement and organized crime. Further, more than 300 mosques have been built in Kosovo, funded mainly by Saudi Arabia where the radical teachings of the Wahhabi sect are promoted.

[Link: www.washingtontimes.com...]

[Link: www.haverford.edu...]

[Link: www.frontpagemag.com...]

[Link: www.assistnews.net...]

[Link: www.balkaninsight.com...]

re: #247 mama winger

#225

re: #249 NomadOfNorad

Speaking of Bolton. WTF was up with the Donks trying to indict him or some such thing this past week?

What the heck ?!? Another thing I missed!

I have to stop going to my job. I can't keep up.

re: #226 mama winger

re: #222 avideditorla.com

re: #220 Alas

Alas I am with you on this point of view. But do you have and proof of Kosovo being Wahhabi?

You may find something here in this article .

Beautifully done article! --it was written 4 years ago...I would very much like to know how it has turned out since then...

re: #253 Killgore Trout

re: #247 mama winger

#225

Melosivich wasn't even mentioned in that post.

re: #24 vapig

IIRC, they already have. . . to Kosova.

Denial or minimization of the Serb nationalist atrocities of the 1990's should not be acceptable or tolerated. The atrocities are well documented and they occurred -- whether anyone here sympathizes with the victims or not and whether anyone agrees with US support for an independent Kosovo or not.

The majority of people in Kosovo (by a longshot) wanted their independence from Serbia desperately. That means it was going to happen one way or another. The way it did happen is better than any of the alternatives.