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Israeli and Saudi Ambassadors Trade Shots

Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 10:21:53 am PST

There’s an interesting exchange in the National Post between the Israeli and Saudi ambassadors to Canada, starting with this op-ed by Alan Baker stating some simple facts about: The poisonous myth of ‘Israeli apartheid’.

Israel is a liberal democracy, guaranteeing civil, religious and social equality to all its citizens — including Jews, Christians, Muslims, Druze and Baha’0is. Israel’s Arab citizens have the right to vote, and are represented by three Arab political parties in Israel’s parliament (the Knesset), representing a gamut of views from communism to Islamic fundamentalism. Several newspapers freely represent the views of Arab citizens in a far freer manner than is permitted among the media of Israel’s neighbours.

Complete freedom of religion for all is strictly protected in Israel — unlike in neighbouring countries, which recognize only one state religion, Islam, and even criminalize and persecute the practice of other faiths. Consider, for instance, Saudi Arabia, whose police recently arrested 40 Christians for the “crime” of praying in a private house. Followers of the Baha’is religion, who are persecuted in Iran, are welcomed in Israel, and maintain their central religious institutions in Haifa and Acre. Coptic Christians, who face restrictions in neighbouring Arab countries, enjoy freedom of religion in Israel.

This statement of fact about the appalling religious oppression in Saudi Arabia obviously didn’t sit well with the representative of the House of Saud, who replies that Israel is too an apartheid state, and advises people to look up Jimmy Carter ... and Rachel Corrie: Saudi ambassador responds.

While I acknowledge the Israeli ambassador’s right to defend his country with respect to the “Israeli Apartheid Week” recently hosted by several Canadian universities, I don’t think that he has the right to somehow implicate and attack the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia in his article. The fact that his country is considered an apartheid regime has absolutely nothing to do with Saudi Arabia.

When I arrived in Canada I quickly realized that this country has a deep-rooted history of high principles and values and that everyone is equal before the law in terms of their rights and obligations. [Much to his dismay. – ed.] In this same spirit, I tried to avoid getting involved in confrontations with any of my colleagues, knowing that there is no such thing as absolute truth.

Thus, I was very keen not to get involved in any frictions with the Israeli ambassador, as I am convinced that the reality on the ground is sufficient enough to condemn Israel’s conscience without any further contribution form my part.

For this reason, I leave it up to readers to learn about the reality on the ground in Israel by referring, for instance, to the American peace activist Rachel Corrie on the internet or Palestine: Peace not Apartheid by former U.S. president Jimmy Carter.

Abdulaziz H. Al-Sowayegh.

Speaking of Rachel Corrie, Carl in Jerusalem has some videos featuring Lee Kaplan discussing some new evidence in the Corrie case: How Rachel Corrie really died (Hint: Not protecting a house).

131 comments

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1 FriarsTale  2/21/08 10:24:27 am reply quote

freedom of speech is problematic for the Saudis

2 zombie  2/21/08 10:24:39 am reply quote

"Israeli Apartheid" -- gimme a break.

A baseless leftist slogan. Elevated to respectability.

3 Peacekeeper  2/21/08 10:25:12 am reply quote

You're a hoser, eh!
No, you're a hoser!

4 coquimbojoe  2/21/08 10:25:13 am reply quote

A dangerous pissing match.

5 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  2/21/08 10:26:24 am
6 RickZ  2/21/08 10:26:56 am reply quote

Thanks Jimmah, . . . fer nuthin'.

7 loppyd  2/21/08 10:28:03 am reply quote
For this reason, I leave it up to readers to learn about the reality on the ground in Israel by referring, for instance, to the American peace activist Rachel Corrie on the internet or Palestine: Peace not Apartheid by former U.S. president Jimmy Carter.

This peace activist?

8 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  2/21/08 10:28:39 am reply quote

The idea of "Israeli Apartheid" holds about as much truth as the idea of "Friendly Saudis"

9 FriarsTale  2/21/08 10:28:59 am reply quote
While I acknowledge the Israeli ambassador’s right to defend his country... I don’t think that he has the right to somehow implicate and attack the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia in his article

translation:
"How dare he criticize Saudi Arabia? Death to him!"

10 The Pulchritudinous Patriot  2/21/08 10:29:10 am reply quote

Oh yes Mr. Ambasador, let me rush out to the book store right now and throw good money out of the window on Mr. Carter's worthless piece of propaganda.

11 MandyManners  2/21/08 10:29:10 am reply quote
In this same spirit, I tried to avoid getting involved in confrontations with any of my colleagues, knowing that there is no such thing as absolute truth.

Timmy, is that you?

12 zmdavid  2/21/08 10:29:14 am reply quote
In this same spirit, I tried to avoid getting involved in confrontations with any of my colleagues, knowing that there is no such thing as absolute truth.


Huh?!

13 zombie  2/21/08 10:29:31 am reply quote

Hmmm, in Israel itself, Arab and Jewish Israelis mingle freely, and have no restrictions on movement, and everyone can vote, and everyone is a citizen.

That's an "Apartheid State"?

What exactly does Israel do that makes it an "Apartheid State"? Oh wait -- maintain the inrtegrity of it international borders?

Gee, if that's all it takes, then just about every country in the world is an Apartheid State.

The very phrase was dreamt up by a think tank of Israel-hating academics. It has no "reality" other than that granted it by the media and the international anti-Semites.

14 ec marm  2/21/08 10:29:49 am reply quote

Jimmy Carter part II coming soon to your voting booth! Are the American people going to do it again?

15 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  2/21/08 10:31:37 am
16 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  2/21/08 10:31:41 am reply quote

Oh, they're not literally trading shots. Dang. I would have settled for them doing shots.

17 hoffmonster  2/21/08 10:32:06 am reply quote

I'm hoping that @ some point the world will wake up to undeniable facts. The Israeli ambassador spoke truths... The Saudi ambassador spoke only of what others have said they feel may be the truth
It's hard to defend the indefensible.

18 Alouette  2/21/08 10:32:15 am reply quote

Israeli and Saudi ambassadors trade shots? Like, "I'll trade you this oranga jello Smirnoff shot for a strawberry?"

If it was any other kind of shot, I don't think the Saudi would be standing.

19 cookielady  2/21/08 10:33:16 am reply quote
knowing that there is no such thing as absolute truth.

Uh-oh! That's a good way for him to get recalled and have his head removed!

What happened to that unholy koran and the mohammedan religion being the absolute truth, huh?

20 bulwrk  2/21/08 10:33:18 am reply quote

I tried to avoid getting involved in confrontations with any of my colleagues, knowing that there is no such thing as absolute truth.


blows the whole koran thing out of the water doesn't it?

21 Iron Fist  2/21/08 10:34:04 am reply quote
The fact that his country is considered an apartheid regime has absolutely nothing to do with Saudi Arabia.


Let's hold a debate on the nature of apartheid. It should be held in the Sanctuary of the First Baptist Church of Mecca. Oh, they don't allow Baptist Churches in Mecca, do they?

[/Game, set, match]

22 ShyGuy  2/21/08 10:34:07 am reply quote

#19, you took the words right our of my fingertips.

23 lawhawk  2/21/08 10:34:15 am reply quote

So, that's the best that the Saudis can do? Let's just ignore the centuries old misogynistic practices that are in place today because Salafist/Wahabis demand nothing less. Let's ignore the fact that women are routinely harassed and worse for wearing anything less than a burkha.

Oh, and let's also ignore the fact that the Islamic co-religionists in Gaza continue to fire rockets and mortars at Israel on a daily basis.

Israel has a right to kick Gazan ass, but chooses not to do so because it has more respect for Gazan lives than the Gazans have for themselves.

24 Silhouette  2/21/08 10:34:33 am reply quote
representing a gamut of views from communism to Islamic fundamentalism.

That's a gamut?

From an all-powerful central government crushing individual liberty to an all-powerful central government crushing individual liberty, but that is based on the Koran.

25 Desert Dog  2/21/08 10:34:44 am reply quote

Let's see, one country has democratically elected leaders, provides all of it's citizens freedoms regardless of their religion, has made the desert bloom without the benefit of sitting on a huge pile of oil, and has a modern functional society....

And the other.....well, the other has one of the most repressive regimes in the world, does not practice democracy, funds and exports it's own variety of 7th Century Supremist Intolerant Islam which calls for world domination and would be nothing but a collection of dirt poor bedouin tribes if it did not sit on a huge pile of oil....

The fact that the Saudi can lecture anyone with a straight face is a amazing. Go look in the mirror, Prince al-Hippocrite and get your own poop in a group. This rates as high as Hugo Chavez lecturing the USA

26 cookielady  2/21/08 10:35:37 am reply quote

re:

27 bulwrk  2/21/08 10:35:49 am reply quote

re:

28 loppyd  2/21/08 10:36:16 am reply quote

OT: Breaking...

Protesters Break Into U.S. Embassy in Serbia, Start Fire, Over Kosovo Independence


A handful of protesters stormed the U.S. embassy in Belgrade, Serbia, on Thursday and started a fire in protest over Kosovo's declaration of independence earlier this week, according to wire reports.

Crowds outside cheered and chanted, egging the demonstrators on as they broke into the building, Reuters reported.

The embassy was closed at the time, and there were no police guarding it.

29 cookielady  2/21/08 10:36:46 am reply quote

re: #20 bulwrk

I tried to avoid getting involved in confrontations with any of my colleagues, knowing that there is no such thing as absolute truth.


blows the whole koran thing out of the water doesn't it?

Great minds!

30 Desert Dog  2/21/08 10:36:50 am reply quote

The Palis are they way they are because of their own Arab "brothers"...they have kept them as "examples" since 1948.

31 gymnast  2/21/08 10:37:19 am reply quote

According to the Saudi Ambassador "there is no such thing as absolute truth". So much for the Koran in the Magic Kingdom? Or is the man going to use taquia to get his foot out of the pile of crap when he goes home.

32 bill-tb  2/21/08 10:37:23 am reply quote

One thing to remember is that Jimmuh Carter was President before a lot of voters were born. They need to be brought up to date with what Carter actually did, for both the US and the middle east. The Iranian Mullahs owe Carter a lot. I was doing business with Iran before Carter ran the Shah out.

33 cookielady  2/21/08 10:37:25 am reply quote

re:

34 Carl in Jerusalem  2/21/08 10:37:28 am reply quote

Thanks for the link, Charles!

/Now I can take the rest of the night off; site meter has been fed :-)

35 mean Gene  2/21/08 10:38:15 am reply quote

Funny.

The Israeli ambassador used easily verified policy and historic fact, the Saudi ambassador used an easily Fisked, faux-history book and an anecdote about one moonbat girl manipulated into giving her life to protect a weapon's tunnel.
AND he wouldn't even give one specific.....preferring you go look it up.

36 alexwest  2/21/08 10:38:16 am reply quote

"a gamut of views from communism to Islamic fundamentalism"

That there's a pretty small gamut.

37 mean Gene  2/21/08 10:39:10 am reply quote

Can we add "Timmy, is that you?" to our rotating titles?

38 cookielady  2/21/08 10:39:17 am reply quote

re:

39 BulgarWheat  2/21/08 10:39:21 am reply quote

re:

40 yochanan  2/21/08 10:39:27 am reply quote

SMELL THE BURNING AMERICAN EMBASSY IN SERBIA

dumb smucks

41 Dave the.....  2/21/08 10:40:19 am reply quote
Security agency warns of rising radicalism in Norway
Norway's state police agency in charge of national security (Politiets sikkerhets tjeneste, PST) reported Tuesday that Islamic extremism "will represent a considerable challenge" for Norway in coming years, and that it sees "indications of rising radicalism" both inside and outside the country.

[Link: www.aftenposten.no...]

42 Sounder  2/21/08 10:40:34 am reply quote

"For this reason, I leave it up to readers to learn about the reality on the ground ..."

The reality on the ground is like an elephant in a phone booth. Can't miss it. And, furthermore, who do you think will be fooled into your position? (other than the far left loonies)

43 chinesearithmetic  2/21/08 10:40:44 am reply quote

I also urge you to go to Smooth Stone's site, because he shows how the ISM used fauxtography™ to create the image of Corrie standing in front of a house rather than being in the trench where she really was.

If you can't believe in the the theatre ... believe in the tractor?

44 cookielady  2/21/08 10:41:03 am reply quote

re: #38 cookielady

re:

45 FreeIowa  2/21/08 10:41:16 am reply quote
46 Dave the.....  2/21/08 10:41:42 am reply quote

But they support the troops.....

Mpls. Army recruiting center targeted by vandals

Police are searching for the vandals who destroyed a Twin Cities Army-recruiting center Wednesday.
Officials said three heavy concrete bricks were hurled repeatedly until the windows of the U.S. Army recruiting center in south Minneapolis shattered.
"You're going to have to have a deliberate plan to do this sort of a thing," said Capt. Mark Gunther of the U.S. Army recruiting company.
It is the sixth break-in during the past 18 months.
The vandals have dumped paint on the sidewalks and windows or left vulgar graffiti in the past.


[Link: kstp.com...]

47 cookielady  2/21/08 10:41:54 am reply quote

re: #31 gymnast

According to the Saudi Ambassador "there is no such thing as absolute truth". So much for the Koran in the Magic Kingdom? Or is the man going to use taquia to get his foot out of the pile of crap when he goes home.

Oops, four of us thinking the same thing.

Fooooodddd! Suusssssstenance! BBL

48 just another four-letter word  2/21/08 10:42:00 am reply quote

Did you notice that not once did the Useful Saudi Idiot refute the claims?

JAFLW

49 shug  2/21/08 10:42:02 am reply quote

The great St Pancake
Smooshed in a weapons tunnel
Defending terror

50 Silhouette  2/21/08 10:42:36 am reply quote

re: #9 FriarsTale

While I acknowledge the Israeli ambassador’s right to defend his country... I don’t think that he has the right to somehow implicate and attack the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia in his article

translation:
"How dare he criticize Saudi Arabia? Death to him!"

They really don't understand free speech. They say they're all for it, but that it should end when it offends them.

(Gasp, Sputter, Gasp) "He has no RIGHT to insult us!"

Uh, yes he does. Suck it up, oil tick.

51 bulwrk  2/21/08 10:44:24 am reply quote

re:

52 Dar ul Harb  2/21/08 10:45:19 am reply quote

re: #20 bulwrk

I tried to avoid getting involved in confrontations with any of my colleagues, knowing that there is no such thing as absolute truth.

blows the whole koran thing out of the water doesn't it?

Upcoming headlines:

Saudi ambassador to Canada recalled for consultations

Muttaween arrest former ambassdor for "blasphemy"

Former ambassador claims "taquiyya" in blasphemy case

Sharia court sentences former ambassador to death for blasphemy

Saudis commute ambassador's death sentence to flogging

53 MandyManners  2/21/08 10:45:25 am reply quote

Abdulaziz H. Al-Sowayegh, you're a GRAMSCIAN WHORE!

54 Ariel  2/21/08 10:47:46 am reply quote

I thought that the Saudis were only supposed to refer to it as the "Zionist Entity". Maybe the ambassador felt that this wouldn't make his case that they're not an apartheid state. In some ways, it's progress - it's some small amount of recognition, though probably in error.

55 Dianna  2/21/08 10:47:52 am reply quote

re:

56 ploome hineni  2/21/08 10:50:56 am reply quote

too late

57 Wm T Sherman  2/21/08 10:51:31 am reply quote

Sunni muslims evade facing the truth about Saudi Arabia, about the bizarre results of true sharia, about the swinish excesses of the rulers, by saying that the Saudi leaders are Western puppets.

58 Is it me?  2/21/08 10:53:46 am reply quote

I've been to Israel, but I've never, ever had one thought of visiting Saudi Arabia. I wonder why? (LOL)

Hey Abdulaziz
The truth hurts
Deal with it

Sorry guys, waaay too much about the Saudis lately. There's only so much hypocricy I can take.
I need to go eat chocolate
Have a good evening one and all.

59 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  2/21/08 10:55:09 am
60 Farang Kheemao  2/21/08 10:58:09 am reply quote

I wonder if that Cat D-9 that created St. Pancake was a LGP model. The tracks on the LGP model are wider and and would have provided more squish!

61 REDSTATE  2/21/08 10:59:57 am reply quote

Free speech is a great thing. A precious right - one of the core rights of America that many have honorably fought and died for.

But here's a great example of why Jimmy Carter should shut the hell up and go back to pounding nails with Habitat.

62 yochanan  2/21/08 11:06:14 am reply quote

any one have any real maple syrup? i am having pancakes.

63 WriterMom  2/21/08 11:07:31 am reply quote

re:

64 Russkilitlover  2/21/08 11:09:57 am reply quote

re: #28 loppyd

OT: Breaking...

65 Sunlight  2/21/08 11:13:07 am reply quote

Carl - Has anyone submitted a question to MoD as to why this video wasn't released right away? I know someone who might be able to get a message to Ehud Barak to ask...? I think it is really important to know that. Over here in the U.S. we support Israel in many ways. Israel needs to make sure the tools (e.g., this video) are available. What's up with the delay?

66 Dianna  2/21/08 11:14:37 am reply quote

re:

67 NY Nana  2/21/08 11:14:57 am reply quote

re:

68 Raven1  2/21/08 11:20:21 am reply quote

It was mostly Saudis on the jets that were used to attack America on 9-11. That is an absolute truth.

69 Lauraf  2/21/08 11:24:30 am reply quote

re: #65 Sunlight

Carl - Has anyone submitted a question to MoD as to why this video wasn't released right away? I know someone who might be able to get a message to Ehud Barak to ask...? I think it is really important to know that. Over here in the U.S. we support Israel in many ways. Israel needs to make sure the tools (e.g., this video) are available. What's up with the delay?

Yeah, Israel's PR efforts often leave me feeling that the country has a death wish. This and the Mohammed al-Dura episode both did a lot to turn international sympathies against Israel, despite the fact that Israelis were being blown up all over the country.

Speaking of al-Dura, does anyone know when the next stage of the is going to be played out in the French courts? I thought it was this month, but can't remember.

70 wltzacrsstxs  2/21/08 11:25:04 am reply quote

"knowing there is no such thing as absolute truth."

What?

1. Who would have guessed that a postmodernist relativist a la Fromm was masquerading as a Saudi Ambassador?

2. the speed of light = 299 792 458 m / s

Put that in your hookah and fire it up...

71 nikis-knight  2/21/08 11:26:06 am reply quote
In this same spirit, I tried to avoid getting involved in confrontations with any of my colleagues, knowing that there is no such thing as absolute truth.

I cannot refute your faccts, therefore I will deconstruct the very notion of facts.

72 Carl in Jerusalem  2/21/08 11:27:25 am reply quote

re: #65 Sunlight

Carl - Has anyone submitted a question to MoD as to why this video wasn't released right away? I know someone who might be able to get a message to Ehud Barak to ask...? I think it is really important to know that. Over here in the U.S. we support Israel in many ways. Israel needs to make sure the tools (e.g., this video) are available. What's up with the delay?

I don't know and I'm not really in a position to submit one.

Part of the problem is that the government agencies work at cross-purposes when it comes to these kinds of issues. That's an issue that Noah Pollak addressed in an article I blogged here.

But we also have some very non-cooperative representatives overseas. I reported on one of them here. And recently, the Foreign and Defense Ministries couldn't agree on getting a television camera into a power plant that was supplying power to Gaza.

The problem is systemic. There are no easy fixes.

73 Carl in Jerusalem  2/21/08 11:28:10 am reply quote

re: #69 Lauraf

re: #65 Sunlight

Carl - Has anyone submitted a question to MoD as to why this video wasn't released right away? I know someone who might be able to get a message to Ehud Barak to ask...? I think it is really important to know that. Over here in the U.S. we support Israel in many ways. Israel needs to make sure the tools (e.g., this video) are available. What's up with the delay?

Yeah, Israel's PR efforts often leave me feeling that the country has a death wish. This and the Mohammed al-Dura episode both did a lot to turn international sympathies against Israel, despite the fact that Israelis were being blown up all over the country.

Speaking of al-Dura, does anyone know when the next stage of the is going to be played out in the French courts? I thought it was this month, but can't remember.

Next week. Wednesday or Thursday (I forget which).

74 colin nelson  2/21/08 11:30:31 am reply quote

FYI:...Here is text of my letter to the Editor, National Post written just after reading the Saudi Ambo's letter.

Sir: Your suggestion that readers learn about the "reality on the ground" is well taken.

Unfortunately for your country, Ambassador Baker's comparison of the Israeli versus the Saudi Arabia 'reality' offers a blindingly clear answer.

Israel is a demonstrably democratic state offering freedom and human rights to all its citizens and yours is not.

As for your suggestion that readers will get the 'reality' by referring to such tarnished sources as Rachel Corrie on the Internet or the newest J. Carter screed, why not go all the way and suggest that readers pick up "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion"?

In the west we expect a higher level of discourse from the diplomatic community."

...update - my letter was not one of the four anti-Saudi letters chosen for publication.

75 zmdavid  2/21/08 11:31:24 am reply quote

I think the Saudi ambassador means that in the realm of diplomacy there is no such thing as absolute truth. That's why diplomacy is so useless. The only way to make diplomacy useful is to restore a little sense of absolute truth to it. Such as when Reagan called the Soviet Union an evil empire.

More diplomats reading LGF would be a start.

76 Sounder  2/21/08 11:32:03 am reply quote

Saudi Ambassador: "there is no such thing as absolute truth". Not in Islam for sure.

77 Sunlight  2/21/08 11:32:20 am reply quote

re:

78 pimp_conservative  2/21/08 11:37:41 am reply quote

ah...St. Pancake! I haven't heard or seen her name in ages....

79 Mike Nargizian  2/21/08 11:40:38 am reply quote

Charles,
You missed the biggest story here, perhaps.. The ISM apparently did Fauxtography to make it appear Corrie was standing on flat ground and not in a TRENCH -

I actually watched all three parts of this video and for those of you who are inclined to do so, it is well worth the time. But what I noticed was that Video # 1 had the most views, Video # 2 had 40% less and Video # 3 had 50% less than that. Video # 2 is - in my humble opinion - the most significant video. So I am embedding video # 2 below. After it is finished, I will give you links to Videos 1 and 3. I also urge you to go to SMOOTH STONE'S SITE because he shows how the ISM used fauxtography™ to create the image of Corrie standing in front of a house rather than being in the trench where she really was.


From SMOOTH STONE'S POSTING -
CLOSE UP OF CUT AND PASTED PICTURE WITH FALSE SHADOWS

Actual video footage from the Israeli Defense Forces show the real circumstances under which the terrorist loving anarchist died: knee-deep in a trench in the middle of dirt in an open dirt field. The left arrow on the photo below points to the tractor, the right arrow shows the kneeling Rachel Corrie. To see the live action footage moments before Rachel Corrie's accidental death, go to the Part 2 video, approx 49 seconds into the video:
80 Mike Nargizian  2/21/08 11:43:41 am reply quote

SO MY QUESTION THEN IS THIS?
HOW the F could the IDF Bulldozer Driver not point out in all this time that
it occured in a trench and not on flatground by the house in the picture?
Either the IDF is so incompetent to defend itself or it's something else?
Mike

81 Opinionated  2/21/08 11:48:18 am reply quote

Notwithstanding his BS, it's strange that a Saudi misogynist would cite Corrie.

Wouldn't the Saudis sic the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice on someone like Corrie- if only because her terrorist supporting activities were co-ed.

82 bulwrk  2/21/08 11:49:37 am reply quote

re:

83 Opinionated  2/21/08 11:50:47 am reply quote

re: #80 Mike Nargizian

SO MY QUESTION THEN IS THIS?
HOW the F could the IDF Bulldozer Driver not point out in all this time that
it occured in a trench and not on flatground by the house in the picture?
Either the IDF is so incompetent to defend itself or it's something else?
Mike

Israel defending herself has the same effect of someone spitting into the wind.

This when the anti Israel world media and press is the wind.

84 Sunlight  2/21/08 11:52:00 am reply quote

re: #80 Mike Nargizian

SO MY QUESTION THEN IS THIS?
HOW the F could the IDF Bulldozer Driver not point out in all this time that
it occured in a trench and not on flatground by the house in the picture?
Either the IDF is so incompetent to defend itself or it's something else?
Mike

That's what I want to know... among other things. I'll tell you there are people making policy in the U.S. who bring up this (and also Al Dura and the poor Palistinians separated from their fields by the fence) as reasons that Israel gets what it deserves. These people are older (experienced, don't you know) and pretty much all of their info comes from the main stream press (including compilations of associated press type articles and essays by senior people who are getting their info from AP). So Israel needs to release these videos and explain their fence-crossing procedures even if in a classified setting. I don't know why they just let these things lie there stinking. I'm not criticizing because I don't know the scoop. But "PR" as a description of what Israel needs to do in this area does not cover it. The beach ads are PR. This is more like strategic information.

86 Sunlight  2/21/08 11:57:55 am reply quote

re: #82 bulwrk

re: #80 Mike Nargizian

Your commanding officer tells you not to make any comments on the case.

When you say "your commanding officer", do you mean yours, bulwrk? Are you there and can you talk to them about this? It wouldn't be that hard to do and not expensive. We're not talking ad time here, just a video clip on the laptop when Israelis go visiting or whatever.

87 goatguy  2/21/08 11:59:00 am reply quote

Jimmy?

Come on folks, this intramural pissing match (libs, left, cons, right) is just silly. The Islamics in general, the Saudis, Iranians, Palestianians, North Africans specifically are "playing the game" better than we are.

Let's take the feel-good tome, "Peace in our day" um, "Pandering for Peace" ... oh what is it? "Peace not Apartheid" by Yimminie Cricket Cartwight. Regardless of the muffin-softness of its whining, at core is a great idea: Peace (excellent) instead of Apartheid (unfortunate).

I'm completely in agreeance.

So, there's this Road Map, having had millions of diplomobucks and thousands of trees on its nuanced meter and verse. It is truely a road MAP: defining a path of action that is punctuated by frequent outposts of accomplishment. To diplomatic form, it is balanced, truthful (though I spose 'absolute truth' goes wanting), fair, dignified, reasonable, attainable, ethical, liberal, responsible and simple.

It requires the Palestinians to squash their terroristic anti-Jew contingent, to declare Israel's right to exist, to clean up their political landscape, and to assert the universally recognized tenants of sovereignty. It likewise compels Israel to not just stop their long-arm / strong-arm military actions, but moreover makes Israel responsible for normalizing relations with Palestine - on attainment of their requirements, and not before.

Yimminy has got his terms kind of confused, however ... so if we are going to wrest the upper hand in this clash-of-polity, it will be by redefining how the terms are defined. Apartheid, to me only means, "separating a group of people based on some aspect of their being, making separate laws and conditions for them, to live as second class citizens in and among the state controlled by the ruling caste."

[Hey, that's pretty good.]

Well, now let's see. If Palestine says they want independence, if Palestine is compelled to assert their sovereignty to gain that independence, and if Palestine's defacto International borders are being well maintained by their Neighbor through the building of walls, fences, defenses and surveilance systems ... then by gum, Palestinians are soon to be, if not already a sovereign people. Which means ... they can't be part of Israel as apartheid class citizens.

And in return, they become responsible adults, throug that sovereignty. Israel gets to blast them with any of its armory for all incursions, infiltrations, subterfuge, espionage, antics and bellicose posturing that they display. Just as Los Angeles couldn't really use the Army to fight a War Against the Peoples of Watts way back when (them being citizens and all), if instead of Watts it had been Mexicali or Calixico ... I dare say the US would have just set up a line of tanks, and pushed the settlements back about 25 miles, and been done with it. Then set up a fence, annexed the demilitarized zone as America (hurrah!), mined it liberally, and waited to see how many dyspeptic Mexicanos decided to take their chances.

So too with Palestine.

I say yes! Peace! Not Apartheid! For the "not apartheid" is already done, and it is only concommittment on the proto-Palestinian polity and population to ... fulfill their end of the deal.

GoatGuy

88 sparrowlake  2/21/08 12:00:10 pm reply quote
"When I arrived in Canada I quickly realized that this country has a deep-rooted history of high principles and values and that everyone is equal before the law in terms of their rights and obligations. [Much to his dismay. – ed.] In this same spirit, I tried to avoid getting involved in confrontations with any of my colleagues, knowing that there is no such thing as absolute truth."

The Saudi's admission that there is no such thing as absolute truth is at odds with the Islamist view that the words of the Quran represent absolute truth. Taqqiya?

89 opnion  2/21/08 12:06:58 pm reply quote

Israel has the unfortuate distinction of being one of two countries that nothing is too outlnadish to use for bashing. The other is the US.
You could claim that the US and Israel were playing ice hockey with Hitlers family and campus intllectuals would nod in agreement.

90 WrathofG-d  2/21/08 12:10:01 pm reply quote

The response is classic.

I cannot deny anything he said so I will fake rightousness and instead direct you toward our state accepted propaganda.

on an OT note:

It Was Israel That Rejected America's Offer To Move U.S. Embassy To Jerusalem.

91 Sunlight  2/21/08 12:13:33 pm reply quote

re: #90 WrathofG-d

The response is classic.

I cannot deny anything he said so I will fake rightousness and instead direct you toward our state accepted propaganda.

on an OT note:

It Was Israel That Rejected America's Offer To Move U.S. Embassy To Jerusalem.

Hard to tell what goes on. The info in the link is interesting as relates to congress and maybe the president(s), but doesn't address any arm twisting that may have been going on from the State Dept.

92 Lauraf  2/21/08 12:16:53 pm reply quote

re: #73 Carl in Jerusalem

re: #69 Lauraf


re: #65 Sunlight

Carl - Has anyone submitted a question to MoD as to why this video wasn't released right away? I know someone who might be able to get a message to Ehud Barak to ask...? I think it is really important to know that. Over here in the U.S. we support Israel in many ways. Israel needs to make sure the tools (e.g., this video) are available. What's up with the delay?

Yeah, Israel's PR efforts often leave me feeling that the country has a death wish. This and the Mohammed al-Dura episode both did a lot to turn international sympathies against Israel, despite the fact that Israelis were being blown up all over the country.

Speaking of al-Dura, does anyone know when the next stage of the is going to be played out in the French courts? I thought it was this month, but can't remember.


Next week. Wednesday or Thursday (I forget which).

Thanks, and thanks for the link to the Noah Pollack article. I hope someone is paying attention.

93 Mike Nargizian  2/21/08 12:19:46 pm reply quote

re:

94 Ben Hur  2/21/08 12:21:19 pm reply quote

If I was a Blck South African, it would offend me to hear that Israel's society is being compared to Apartheid in SA.

95 attributor  2/21/08 12:23:46 pm reply quote

The Leftist rhetoric is what drives much of the mass media.
Mass media is what (still) drives the masses.
Just look at the UK. The view of Israel as an "evil creation" is a norm there, after years of propaganda from Guardian and the BBC.

If this continues, Israel is lost, whether it cedes East Jerusalem or not.
With Obama being the president this is almost certain.

Do any of readers here have any suggestions?

96 ploome hineni  2/21/08 12:40:24 pm reply quote

re: #95 attributor

The Leftist rhetoric is what drives much of the mass media.
Mass media is what (still) drives the masses.
Just look at the UK. The view of Israel as an "evil creation" is a norm there, after years of propaganda from Guardian and the BBC.

If this continues, Israel is lost, whether it cedes East Jerusalem or not.
With Obama being the president this is almost certain.

Do any of readers here have any suggestions?

pray

97 mioilman  2/21/08 12:44:33 pm reply quote

Anti-semitism was the root cause the last time the world was engulfed in war. History I fear is doomed to repeat itself. The nuclear age guarantees this time civilization won't be able to shove the genie back in the bottle. W talked a good game early but in the end he placated the most bigoted hateful people on earth and their minions that reside in the ether of left wing intelligentsia. The world must demand diplomatic relations be established between Israel and its neighbors. Otherwise the fanatics can continue to yearn for Israel's destruction and act out the fantasy by strapping explosives to the weak minded amongst them.

98 Mike Nargizian  2/21/08 12:53:27 pm reply quote

re: #91 Sunlight

re: #90 WrathofG-d
The response is classic.
I cannot deny anything he said so I will fake rightousness and instead direct you toward our state accepted propaganda.

on an OT note:

99 madisonsfriend  2/21/08 1:02:40 pm reply quote

Yes, do not bring up that no other religion is allowed in Saudi and that we persecute anyone who tries to practice other religions. Non Muslims are not even allowed into some of our cities and women are treated as they should be- as our property. The beheadings and "honor" killings, the floggings and amputations- these do not matter. I refer you to a radical anti-American and a man who we know we can continue to keep in line with our new Hamas rabbit(now we do not even have to pump money into that front- I mean -Center of his).

100 Ward Cleaver  2/21/08 1:08:02 pm reply quote

From Carl's blog post:

Actual video footage from the Israeli Defense Forces show the real circumstances under which the terrorist loving anarchist died: knee-deep in a trench in the middle of dirt in an open dirt field...

St. Pancake, terrorist-loving scum.

101 crabtree  2/21/08 1:13:14 pm reply quote

"knowing that there is no such thing as absolute truth."

Really?!?

The context is a bit unclear from the Honorable Ambassador's comments, but this statement is very revealing in any context. It certainly qualifies him to teach poly sci or literature at any of our leading universities. That's the only other place where he'll find lots of people who aren't convinced that it's "absolutely true" that you can be arrested, or worse, for praying in the wrong way in Saudi Arabia, but not in Israel.

102 sparrowlake  2/21/08 1:28:16 pm reply quote

re: #95 attributor

The Leftist rhetoric is what drives much of the mass media.
Mass media is what (still) drives the masses.
Just look at the UK. The view of Israel as an "evil creation" is a norm there, after years of propaganda from Guardian and the BBC.

If this continues, Israel is lost, whether