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Gates of Vienna Toys with Genocide

Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 7:28:18 pm PDT

At Gates of Vienna, an author referred to as “thoughtful” has a piece that lovingly describes the coming genocide of Muslims in Europe: Gates of Vienna: Surrender, Genocide ... or What?

He backs away at the last minute, after imagining it in great detail, and says he’s not advocating genocide. So what does he advocate?

A totalitarian police state that will institute policies of concentration camps and mass deportation, and criminalize being a Muslim in Europe.

Oh, yeah. That’s a lot better.

Here’s one excerpt from this lengthy exercise in genocide porn.

A functioning government might be able to organize and carry out mass deportations via airline, but would surely be forced to preemptively intern the target population, and the notion that such populations in Europe would allow themselves to be peacefully interned strains credulity to breaking point and beyond. If this is true now, how much truer would it be in five or ten years time? Even the merest suggestion of implementing such a plan would surely collapse an electoral discontinuity into a non-electoral discontinuity for reasons already discussed. It is on the basis of this reasoning that I argue that deportations and mass expulsions, though the most difficult types of violence to read in this context, will not play a key role in post-discontinuity violence apart from perhaps being used to repatriate the survivors once the conflict has been won.

Here’s another:

If violence does erupt in European countries between natives and Muslims, I consider it highly likely that people who had never done anything more violent than beat eggs will prove incapable of managing the psychological transition to controlled violence and start killing anything that looks remotely Muslim. Our unspoken conviction that we, in 21st-century Europe, have moved beyond such savagery will be shown to be an arrogance founded on a few decades of fragile peace and prosperity, taken for granted and allowed to slip through our fingers for no reason at all.

Baron Bodissey is now complaining that he’s receiving critical email for posting this disgusting screed. They all want to avoid genocide, he says.

Posting a blatant incitement to violence is an awfully strange way to demonstrate that.

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1119 comments

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1 EC Marm  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:30:15pm

Early prediction, three trolls, three bannings. VegasRick should be working up the numbers.

2 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:30:25pm

All I have to say is: Holy shit, they actually posted that!

GoV has not just jumped the shark, they've jumped the fraking moon.

3 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:31:19pm

Read the comments. You get a better feel for their readership that way.

4 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:34:42pm

I keep trying to read it, and I keep having to stop. My stomach just won't take it.

5 Sol Roth  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:34:57pm

Well, you could open registration for a while and allow us to troll hunt. You know they are banging on the door right now.

6 Ojoe  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:36:09pm

Genocide? That's nuts.

Japan was defeated losing maybe 3 or 4 percent of its population, & IIRC Germany in WW2 lost maybe 10%.

The Aztec religion is gone; plenty of survivors from that, and they're Christians too.

It may be bad in the future, but most of the change will be mental and spiritual.

7 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:36:17pm
surely be forced to preemptively intern the target population


Concentration camps, genocide, mass deportations. This is old school fascism in it's raw form. Wanna bet they're also Darwinists?

8 lawhawk  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:36:48pm

Jeez. Where does one even start with this? Europe is beset by troubles on all sides, that's for sure. They've got folks like this one end of the spectrum, and not far away are the jihadis who would like to impose their own brand of justice.

And meanwhile, most Europeans are deaf dumb and blind to the evils that lurk just below the surface in most places - but which oozes out in full view in places like London and Paris.

Apparently, the failure to confront evils means that the ultimate butchers' bill will be significantly increased with each passing day.

9 jaunte  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:36:58pm

Even when that author tries to talk neutrally about Islam as a political ideology, some ideas just seem to pop out unbidden:

"...allowing ‘borderline’ or ‘cultural’ Muslims the option of staying in the UK if they understood that Islam had no future there and would simply be bleached out of British life over the course of a generation or two."
10 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:37:11pm

re: #5 Sol Roth

They'll be here, just wait. They've been showing up on the Spencer thread all afternoon.

11 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:38:51pm
12 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:39:19pm

What drives me crazy is the way El Ingles simply ignores the best option: don't allow the ghettoization. Insist on integration. That means that there will be no separate schools, the mosques will be monitored, and islamic dress will be banned. Conscription - for at least social service - will have to be instituted, and schooling for girls right through what we call 12th grade will be compulsory.

I don't like how coercive that is, but it seems to me the only way to avoid all the various varieties of hell that El Ingles seems so eager to impose.

13 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:39:26pm

re: #10 Killgore Trout

They'll be here, just wait. They've been showing up on the Spencer thread all afternoon.

Oh, I'll bet. If any of the VBers are still left, they'll be around for this thread.

/Barbeques ready?

14 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:39:34pm
15 snowcrash  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:39:43pm

Holy crap, mass deportations and genocide. These folks are out of their minds and dangerous.

16 gman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:39:55pm

Some of the comments are completely bananas:

Here's one by someone named Englishman at GoV that goes totally unchallenged:

Most of the opposition from the billion plus muslims ,could be nuetralised by three or four nuclear weapons,but the fifty million subversives already within our borders would have to be dealt with individually as each component in each country is only a regiment in the muslim army.As they have no intension of living in peace,we must destroy them before they destroy us in whatever manner is necessary.

17 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:40:03pm

re: #7 Killgore Trout

Ah...why do I suspect you of pot stirring?

18 Ojoe  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:40:38pm

re: #12 Dianna

The girls are a good place to start; a big change could come from them.

19 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:40:42pm

re: #12 Dianna

Secretly, I think they want the hell on earth. It'll be easier for them to justify whatever it is they want to do then to be the "saviours" of Europe.

It's pretty sick if you ask me.

20 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:41:02pm
He backs away at the last minute, after imagining it in great detail, and says he’s not advocating genocide.

Standard CYA statement except that after that entire rant- it's a little hard to swallow.

21 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:41:50pm

I wonder about the legal implications of posting this. The US doesn't have hate speech laws (thankfully) but they really are advocating genocide and vigilantism. I think there might be implications for some of the Europeans posting in the comments, the feds might take notice of this. It's very dangerous stuff. I think the company hosting their site might have issues with this as well.

22 Sol Roth  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:42:07pm

re: #10 Killgore Trout

I got stuck with an insane, ancient troll on the Nazi thread so I missed it completely. These things sleep so long then finally pop on a dead thread. The young ones are comical, but the ideologues are just scary.

23 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:42:09pm
24 Dr. Shalit  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:42:11pm

Charles -

Read the GoV post this morning. The Jihadi violence in Europe has been pinpricks in comparison to 9/11. I think the question raised is what would happen in Europe if the people suddenly felt fear and turned on their Muslim Populations. Judging by past history, the result would NOT be pretty.

-S-

25 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:42:17pm

re: #16 gman

Paranoia, anyone?

Though I've encountered that sort of thinking here, now and again, to my utter dismay. Fortunately, they usually get banned pretty quickly.

26 snowcrash  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:42:28pm

I guess these are the second generation activities spoken of in the Spencer thread last night. Count me OUT.

27 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:42:52pm

re: #16 gman

It's really disgusting over there, and it makes me really glad that people like that are not welcome here.

28 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:42:59pm

re: #17 Dianna

That's because it's what I'm doing.

29 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:43:23pm

re: #22 Sol Roth

I got stuck with an insane, ancient troll on the Nazi thread so I missed it completely. These things sleep so long then finally pop on a dead thread. The young ones are comical, but the ideologues are just scary.

Problem is, some of them are sock puppets that a banned commentor left in place so he/she could come back.

30 EC Marm  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:43:26pm

re: #7 Killgore Trout

Concentration camps, genocide, mass deportations. This is old school fascism in it's raw form. Wanna bet they're also Darwinists?


Darwin? That evolution fellow who that wrote that book? What was the full, complete title of that book again?

31 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:43:36pm

In contrast, is this not what they are claiming is being taught in mosques?

32 paxnhymn  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:43:52pm

right or wrong, (WRONG!) it's human nature folks. exterminate and enemy. They hate us and want to destroy us (completely, I might add) so it's only logical for our side to have someone think the same....but not right!

33 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:43:54pm

re: #21 Killgore Trout

It's a blogger account- I think I'll flag it for google.

34 Catttt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:44:10pm

! I'm speechless - but not surprised, I'm sorry to say. (OK, almost speechless.)

35 Catttt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:44:36pm

re: #21 Killgore Trout

I wonder about the legal implications of posting this. The US doesn't have hate speech laws (thankfully) but they really are advocating genocide and vigilantism. I think there might be implications for some of the Europeans posting in the comments, the feds might take notice of this. It's very dangerous stuff. I think the company hosting their site might have issues with this as well.

I was thinking the same thing.

36 itellu3times  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:44:38pm

Sigh.

Sorry, that's about all I trust myself to say on this.

37 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:44:44pm

re: #33 Sharmuta

It's a blogger account- I think I'll flag it for google.

Oh, they'll love you for that one. LOL!

38 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:44:57pm

re: #21 Killgore Trout

There is not one - so far as I've gotten, anyway - specific threat to a named or identifiable individual.

Worse, your thinking is the thin edge of the wedge for Human Rights Commissions, just as in Canada. I think - as distasteful as this is - that I'll stop short of asking for government intervention.

39 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:45:36pm

re: #30 EC Marm

What was the full, complete title of that book again?


uhhhh....Genocidal Ethnic Cleansing Made Easy for the Modern Ape?

40 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:46:02pm

re: #33 Sharmuta

It's a blogger account- I think I'll flag it for google.

And I just did likewise. A few of the commentors over there hate me anyway.

41 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:46:10pm

re: #37 Honorary Yooper

google put the flags in for objectionable content. If this essay doesn't qualify- nothing does.

42 USBeast  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:46:52pm

I stopped by there before I came here. No one was advocating genocide. They were fearfully predicting it if some sort of sane immigration program was not implemented.

It's easy to criticize others when your butt is not in their sling.

43 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:47:12pm

re: #41 Sharmuta

google put the flags in for objectionable content. If this essay doesn't qualify- nothing does.

Exactly. They're basically advocating genocide without advocating genocide blatently.

44 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:47:15pm

re: #26 snowcrash

Me, too.

I will not tolerate murder, and particularly, I will not be silent about the psychological stage-setting for massacre.

45 SusanL  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:47:18pm

"Intern the target population" Do they honestly think that we would stand by and let them perpertrate another Holocaust, with Muslims as the victims this time?

I'm no fan of Islam, but this crap is outrageous and cannot be allowed to stand.

46 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:47:43pm

re: #42 USBeast

I stopped by there before I came here. No one was advocating genocide. They were fearfully predicting it if some sort of sane immigration program was not implemented.

It's easy to criticize others when your butt is not in their sling.

Mass deportations is not a sane immigration policy.

47 Jimmy The Clam  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:48:10pm

re: #21 Killgore Trout

I wonder about the legal implications of posting this. The US doesn't have hate speech laws (thankfully) but they really are advocating genocide and vigilantism. I think there might be implications for some of the Europeans posting in the comments, the feds might take notice of this. It's very dangerous stuff. I think the company hosting their site might have issues with this as well.

Free speech for me but not for thee?

If you are going to advocate the shitting down of blogs, I'd at least hope you would start with the Jihadi blogs first.

48 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:48:24pm

re: #31 formercorpsman

In contrast, is this not what they are claiming is being taught in mosques?

I don't know if I described this the way I wanted to.

My point being, is it not a contradiction of their position?

49 Catttt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:48:39pm

re: #32 paxnhymn

There is a difference between protecting yourself and wanting to obliterate entire groups of people and countries. Fascist thinking tends to add "enemies" to the list of folks to obliterate, since their motto is "everyone is the enemy save me and thee, and sometimes I wonder about thee."

50 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:48:40pm

re: #42 USBeast

It's a very elaborate fantasy of what they would like to see happen.

51 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:48:48pm

re: #28 Killgore Trout

Pick a side and stick to it, damnit. I'm tired, and I'm worried. When you're not flat-out determined to cause trouble, you're one of the better thinkers I know of. So restrain yourself and attempt seriousness.

Hard as it may be.

Thank you.

52 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:49:04pm
53 paxnhymn  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:49:09pm

The problem with this kinda crap going public is it perpetuates that isslumic, "we are perpetual victims and have the right to defend ourselves" mentality...

54 USBeast  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:49:16pm

re: #46 Sharmuta

Mass deportations is not a sane immigration policy.

Never said it was. Your recommendation...?

55 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:49:26pm

re: #45 SusanL

"Intern the target population" Do they honestly think that we would stand by and let them perpertrate another Holocaust, with Muslims as the victims this time?

I'm no fan of Islam, but this crap is outrageous and cannot be allowed to stand.

Even if they are muslims, and even if they are jihadis at that, they are still human beings. No one, and I strongly repeat, no one should ever have to go through another Holocaust ever again.

Never Again means never again should we let this happen to anyone, anywhere.

56 joecitizen  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:50:04pm

re: #42 USBeast

I stopped by there before I came here. No one was advocating genocide. They were fearfully predicting it if some sort of sane immigration program was not implemented.

It's easy to criticize others when your butt is not in their sling.

you a crazy man..

57 paxnhymn  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:50:38pm

re: #49 Catttt

There is a difference between protecting yourself and wanting to obliterate entire groups of people and countries. Fascist thinking tends to add "enemies" to the list of folks to obliterate, since their motto is "everyone is the enemy save me and thee, and sometimes I wonder about thee."


ohh, no doubt, I agree. i'm saying we shouldn't be surprised by it tough. Historically predictable behaviour.

58 USBeast  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:50:43pm

re: #50 Killgore Trout

It's a very elaborate fantasy of what they would like to see happen.

And what would you like to see happen?

59 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:51:19pm

re: #31 formercorpsman

Not quite. They claim - correctly - that the wild-eyed islamists will not rest until everyone in the West is a slave, a muslim, or dead (to quote It's in the Koran).

Neither prospect appeals to me, nor to you, I don't think?

60 wolfie  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:51:30pm

These people are saying that the only choice we have is between two barbarisms, theirs and the Islamists'. Well, for most of us in the West, that is no choice at all. And this is supposed to make us wake up to the dangers around us?! On the contrary. It is an encouragement to passivity and despair. So much for being heroes in the fight against jihad!

61 paxnhymn  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:51:44pm

Cattt, sorry. my typing skills have been even worse than usual lately.

62 USBeast  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:51:56pm

re: #56 joecitizen

you a crazy man..

Never denied it. Now, what is your definition of sanity?

63 Charles  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:52:20pm

The people at Gates of Vienna are doing their level best to destroy the credibility of the anti-jihad movement.

re: #58 USBeast

And what would you like to see happen?

What would you like to see happen?

And if you don't think there was anyone advocating genocide, you didn't read the comments over there.

64 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:52:21pm

Is it just me, or in that second excerpt, do the first and second sentences seem to contradict each other?

65 Catttt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:53:08pm

re: #47 Jimmy The Clam

Thanks - we know about freedom of speech in the USA, but the point is that there are European laws against hate speech, such as posts that advocate genocide, etc. Not everyone is American.

66 joecitizen  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:53:41pm

re: #62 USBeast

Never denied it. Now, what is your definition of sanity?


seeing clearly what is right in front of my eyes,no matter how it is masked..

67 Charles  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:53:49pm

re: #64 Occasional Reader

Is it just me, or in that second excerpt, do the first and second sentences seem to contradict each other?

It's not just you. The author is trying to keep up appearances, but his real opinions leak through.

68 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:53:50pm

re: #54 USBeast

Never said it was. Your recommendation...?

Classic troll tactic- trying to flip it around. Well- this isn't about me. This is about a genocidal, police state essay at gov (and your excuses for it).

69 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:54:19pm

re: #47 Jimmy The Clam

If you are going to advocate the shitting down of blogs, I'd at least hope you would start with the Jihadi blogs first.


" the shitting down of blogs" - heh
Go ahead and reverse the terms "European" and "Muslim" in that essay. If this was a Jihadi blog fantasizing about genocide against infidels in Europe would you still feel the same? This is not really a free speech issue they are advocating genocide in Europe. Should American hosting companies have hosted Hitler's Blog about killing the Jews? There is nothing different about this essay. Concentration camps, confiscation of property and genocide. Hitler could have written this himself.

70 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:54:21pm

re: #54 USBeast

Refer to my #12.

Oh, and stop muslim immigration for a while. Certainly, they don't get to import child-brides any more!

71 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:54:27pm

re: #50 Killgore Trout

Killgore, I want to ask your opinion of something.

First, I agree with you as it relates to their history, white supremacist, this post they have at their site, etc.

Do you think there are folks out there who might be so distraught at certain things they are watching before them, and seeing how the world shifts, that they might have convinced themselves a major conflagration is inevitable?

Many times people post opinions that it is 1939 all over again, etc.

72 pat  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:55:01pm

So that's what Islamophobia looks like!

73 paxnhymn  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:56:11pm

One thing is certain. The West is unwillingly headed for some unfinished business with isslum, and I may not be alive, but it's gonna be ugly....

74 JHW  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:56:33pm

Lot of similarity in this sort of talk to the Wannsee Conference IMO, pseudo-intellectual language discussing horrific actions as if they were perfectly logical and justified.

75 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:56:36pm
A totalitarian police state that will institute policies of concentration camps and mass deportation, and criminalize being a Muslim in Europe.

That seems to be exactly what they (the GoVers, Vlaams Belang, et.al.) want. With them in charge of course. How does this make them any different than the socialists and the Islamists they proclaim to oppose?

You cannot simply choose between totalitarianisms. The only choice out there is freedom, IMHO. And that's where I stand. I want to protect my freedoms, our freedoms from these fascists, from the socialists, and from the Islamists. For if we do not protect these freedoms as we have enshrined in the US Constitution, then we have certainly lost, and they will have won.

76 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:56:56pm

re: #51 Dianna

Pick a side and stick to it, damnit.


I'm on the same side I've always been. Ben Stein brought this on himself. Darwinist is going to be the punchline in many Nazi jokes from now on. Better get used to it.

While we're on the topic: Is there a Darwinist connection here? They're talking about the same things; concentration camps and genocide. Where's the Darwin?

77 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:56:56pm

re: #71 formercorpsman

The crypto-fascists of europe fan the flames of fear because it helps them rise to power. Things aren't just bad- they're terrible, and if you elect us we'll make it stop. Things are bad, but not so bad as to excuse turning to fascist solutions.

78 SusanL  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:57:15pm

re: #29 Honorary Yooper

Can't you just visualize someone feverishly creating account after account so they can come back after they have been banned? They know what they intend to post isn't welcome here. And they know that Sticky Beaumont is going to whack them.

How sad is that?

The funny part, they never get more than a half dozen posts in before someone recognized them, outs them and they are made to go away (yet again).

S

79 joecitizen  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:57:35pm

re: #73 paxnhymn

One thing is certain. The West is unwillingly headed for some unfinished business with isslum, and I may not be alive, but it's gonna be ugly....


that may well be but let's not put the tat before the tit..

80 snowcrash  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:57:45pm

re: #44 Dianna
It is really scary to see a cause hijacked and corrupted with violence.
I am glad Charles and the big Lizards took the heat on the initial split
from the European movement last summer. We are watching the rise of fascism. I know what I am reading.

81 Catttt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:58:14pm

re: #76 Killgore Trout

I'm on the same side I've always been. Ben Stein brought this on himself. Darwinist is going to be the punchline in many Nazi jokes from now on. Better get used to it.

While we're on the topic: Is there a Darwinist connection here? They're talking about the same things; concentration camps and genocide. Where's the Darwin?

Shut up. I am so SICK of you harping on fricking Charles fricking Darwin.

82 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:58:31pm

re: #76 Killgore Trout

Nope.

Darwin would stare.

Hell, I'm staring.

83 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:58:54pm

re: #58 USBeast

And what would you like to see happen?


I'd like to see nazi assholes go fuck themselves.
/It's late enough to use some salty lingo, right?

84 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:00:05pm

re: #59 Dianna

At times, I know I don't post what I am thinking clearly in the words I type.

I'll try again.

To me, how can you be leading the charge, and claiming islamists are using these types of tactics (influence peddling, suggestion, rhetorical situations, etc) but not see the log in your own eye?

I agree with you, and I am convinced there is a real threat.

I agree with the general sentiment here, it must be tackled head on.

It is un-American to counter it with things like genocide, etc.

We are supposed to be the shining city on the hill. We fight wars, we don't commit atrocities like our enemies.

85 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:00:19pm

re: #71 formercorpsman


Do you think there are folks out there who might be so distraught at certain things they are watching before them, and seeing how the world shifts, that they might have convinced themselves a major conflagration is inevitable?


Yes, they'll whip themselves into a frenzy and go on a shooting spree in a mosque or an asian market. These delusions are very dangerous.

86 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:00:23pm

re: #76 Killgore Trout

Is there a Darwinist connection here? They're talking about the same things; concentration camps and genocide. Where's the Darwin?

This schtick is getting old fast, Killgore.

87 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:00:54pm

re: #82 Dianna

Exactly.

88 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:01:05pm

re: #80 snowcrash

Please buck up. It is not 1939. It's not even 1923.

There are solutions, and they are not necessarily violent, or even as coercive as those I advocated in my comment #12.

Despair is the ultimate sin, I think, no matter one's theology.

89 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:01:22pm

re: #81 Catttt

Get used to it.

90 CapeCoddah  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:01:40pm

Good Lord! What a horrifying piece, they ARE advocating genocide. Holy Crap! I thought someone MUST be reading it wrong. The only one who was wrong was me! My chin hurts, as it just hit the edge of the desk, Hard.

91 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:01:46pm
92 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:01:53pm

re: #86 Occasional Reader

This schtick is getting old fast, Killgore.


I find it very amusing.

93 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:01:58pm

re: #84 formercorpsman

You are right.

94 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:01:59pm

re: #86 Occasional Reader

This schtick is getting old fast, Killgore.

I hate to say it, Killgore, but I think I agree with O.R. here. Ben Stein did it to himself, but after last week, it's best to bury it right now.

95 theparson  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:02:37pm

We must not become what we so detest.

96 paxnhymn  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:02:53pm

re: #79 joecitizen

that may well be but let's not put the tat before the tit..


I guess it's just morbid curiosity...but I wonder at what point we compromise our culture just to survive?

97 CapeCoddah  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:03:25pm

re: #95 theparson
That is EXACTLY the right answer.

98 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:03:42pm

re: #92 Killgore Trout

The rest of us - who have known you for some time, and actually like you most of the time - do not.

99 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:03:57pm

re: #77 Sharmuta

Sharmuta, I understand that, but that really was not my question.

I guess my point is, do you think there are some people who do not subscribe to what they are writing, but feel things are heading in this direction?

100 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:03:57pm

re: #94 Honorary Yooper

Fat chance. What leads to genocide is irrational hatred, not scientific theories. I will mock those who believe otherwise relentlessly.

101 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:04:17pm

re: #96 paxnhymn

I guess it's just morbid curiosity...but I wonder at what point we compromise our culture just to survive?

We are nowhere, remotely, near that point.

We are not faced with Islamist military superiority, such that we have to ally with anyone to survive.

102 Ojoe  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:04:22pm

re: #88 Dianna

Pride beats despair, which is a self-indulgent form of pride anyway.

103 Catttt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:04:25pm

re: #89 Killgore Trout

Get used to it.

No, I don't think so. Keep it up and we'll all start gazing and skipping over you. That would be fatal to you, you big egomaniac.

104 snowcrash  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:04:33pm

re: #88 Dianna
Dianna, last night I thought that blog was a European forum. I am amazed.

105 NY Nana  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:04:35pm

re: #10 Killgore Trout

/Think Atlas will be back?

106 Jimmy The Clam  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:04:43pm

re: #65 Catttt

Thanks - we know about freedom of speech in the USA, but the point is that there are European laws against hate speech, such as posts that advocate genocide, etc. Not everyone is American.

An un-just law is an un-just law, no matter who's ox is getting gored.

From what I read of the piece it seems to ask the greater question of what do you do when the situation is allowed to reach the critical mass that it seems to have reached in Europe.
What do you DO?

As unsettling as that article is, that seems to be Europe's eventual fate barring anything short of wholesale deportations.

107 USBeast  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:05:05pm

re: #63 Charles

The people at Gates of Vienna are doing their level best to destroy the credibility of the anti-jihad movement.

What would you like to see happen?

And if you don't think there was anyone advocating genocide, you didn't read the comments over there.

I would like to see everyone in the world come together in peace and harmony. Do I expect it? No.

As for the comments at GOV advocating genocide, you are correct; I did not hang around to read them and I do not agree with anyone who advocates such.

I will not, however, deny that the West's refusal to defend itself will not end in bloodshed. I do not like the idea, but I would be stupid to deny the possibility.

108 dual_boot_brain  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:05:07pm

Why is it when the going gets tough the Euros' go genocide? What is this bizarre, Wagner-ian, epic-slaughter mindset that they have? Is there something in the water that drives them to want to kill anyone who doesn't look like them?

109 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:05:13pm

re: #96 paxnhymn

I guess it's just morbid curiosity...but I wonder at what point we compromise our culture just to survive?

Compromising our culture is a slippery slope. I'm not interested in fascism of any stripe, be it islamo, neo, crypto- what ever. If we have to become like the jihadis to defeat them- we have already lost. We compromise never.

110 mjazzguitar  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:05:20pm

re: #30 EC Marm

Darwin? That evolution fellow who that wrote that book? What was the full, complete title of that book again?

Mein Kampf?

111 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:05:22pm

re: #96 paxnhymn

I don't propose to.

In fact, I won't. I'll be polite about it as long as I can, but I will not compromise, surrender or submit.

112 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:05:28pm

re: #92 Killgore Trout

I find it very amusing.

Killgore, speaking as a fellow atheist, we atheists often as a tendency toward being... what's the technical term... assholes, that's it. It's something to keep an eye on. I'm serious.

113 Sol Roth  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:05:36pm
... consider the brilliant innovation of Gordon Brown’s government in the UK, in response to the terrorist attacks that occurred shortly after he entered office: Muslim terrorist plots directed at non-Muslims would now be referred to as ‘anti-Islamic activity.’ What to make of the people who dreamed up this ‘policy’?

What to make of them? Petfood? ... Lampshades? ... A host of even less savory fates spring to mind, including many that involve barbed wire, lit cigarettes and specially shaped electrodes connected to car batteries.
...

targeted executions

I still maintain that an immediate campaign of targeted assassinations aimed at Islam’s clerical, financial and scholastic aristocracy might have some sort of chance at reversing the tide of Islamization. Such a program is one of the only viable or cost-effective bulwarks standing between shari’a ruled Europe or a Muslim holocaust.

---GoV poster, "Zenster"

Yep. Pretty sure that would get you banned here.

114 gman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:05:49pm

re: #42 USBeast

I stopped by there before I came here. No one was advocating genocide. They were fearfully predicting it if some sort of sane immigration program was not implemented.

It's easy to criticize others when your butt is not in their sling.

Wtf?

Were you born after 9/11?

115 Dr. Shalit  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:06:19pm

Charles & Everyone -

Just a question, PA Pres. Abbas (a/k/a 'Abu Mazen says') is coming to DC.
As usual the demand that "settlements" be stopped/dismantled. In effect the PA must be "Jew-Free." And, as always, we listen to this and SAY NOTHING. It is a Bigotry of LOW EXPECTATIONS. We expect nothing more of the Muslim Arab - tolerance of a minority population - all y'all gotta be kidding. OK, no problem, from here on out, I agree to the stoppage and dismantlement of all Israeli "settlements" in the PA - AT WHICH TIME - ALL ISRAELI MUSLIMS WILL LOSE THEIR CITIZENSHIP AND BE RELOCATED INTO THE PA. "PEACEFUL ETHNIC CLEANSING WORKS BOTH WAYS."

-S-

116 Catttt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:06:23pm

re: #106 Jimmy The Clam

You missed my point. The LAWS in Europe are different. You can't holler that freedom of speech, based on US law, is being illegally hindered in Europe. It just doesn't work that way.

117 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:06:29pm

re: #99 formercorpsman

Maybe. But I have a problem with both despair and the joyously nihilistic embrace of gotterdamerrung.

118 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:06:41pm

re: #76 Killgore Trout

I would just say Killgore, many, many different groups are guilty.

As much as my Church has been responsible for their wrongs in history, so have the Soviets, Chinese Communists, etc.

It crosses all lines.

119 J.S.  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:06:56pm

I have not gone to the GoV site, and don't intend to read any more of it -- other than the excerpt provided above. I think because the author is speaking/writing in the future tense, it would not be prohibited speech (not even in Canada)...Another problem, of course, is that this toying with reprehensible ideas (concentration camps? deportations, etc.) feeds the Islamists -- it gives them ammunition...so then they can claim that they're being victimized, etc.

120 paxnhymn  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:07:24pm

re: #101 Occasional Reader

We are nowhere, remotely, near that point.

We are not faced with Islamist military superiority, such that we have to ally with anyone to survive.


point well taken. But they are recruiting useful idiots (either directly or indirectly) at a staggering rate.

121 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:07:43pm
122 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:08:02pm

re: #113 Sol Roth

Targeted executions!?! That settles it for me completely now. They are Nazis.

123 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:08:44pm

re: #102 Ojoe

Ah, hubris!

Proper pride is quite other than hubris, the over-weening conviction of one's own central place in the universe.

Proper pride, in oneself and one's culture is otherwise known as the realization that I am not - and never have been - the Queen of Numenor.

124 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:09:17pm

re: #85 Killgore Trout

Again, I am being serious, that is not the question I asked.

I am trying to separate a certain group of people who may have first hand legitimate fear because of direct experience versus the blog in question we are talking about here.

125 wolfie  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:09:22pm

re: #88 Dianna

Please buck up. It is not 1939. It's not even 1923.

There are solutions, and they are not necessarily violent, or even as coercive as those I advocated in my comment #12.

Despair is the ultimate sin, I think, no matter one's theology.

Indeed. That's what these people are selling: despair.
I'm not buying.

126 Ojoe  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:09:40pm

re: #101 Occasional Reader

What we need to do is regain a rock solid confidence in ourselves and our western values (let us admit they are mostly Judeo-Christian); when we regain this, the islamics will act puny and the problem will be over in a few generations as their children change their allegiance to the stronger group.

IMHO of course.

127 EE  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:09:42pm

Gates of Vienna is proposing three courses of action against all Muslims in Europe: (1) ethnic cleansing by terrorism (that's what they mean by "encouraging" Muslims to leave); (2) massive expulsion of all Muslims; and (3) genocide. These are the new Nazis; they call themselves Gates of Vienna but they are the gates of Auschwitz. If terroristic ethnic cleansing doesn't give the result of eliminating all Muslims from Europe, and if a massive expulsion doesn't eliminate all Muslims from Europe, then they advocate moving to the Final Solution: genocide.

These genocidal Nazi bastards do not deserve empowerment; they deserve imprisonment.

128 theblakester  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:09:48pm

While I take to the notion that if everyone were to be all the same color, race, creed, or god forbid the same religion, hate will still exist and the killings will still take place. So, what do the Islamics think will happen? With their constant and persistent push for Sharia law and a separate way of life, what should the push back be and look like?

129 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:09:51pm

re: #120 paxnhymn

point well taken. But they are recruiting useful idiots (either directly or indirectly) at a staggering rate.

Yep. And one of the quickest ways to lose that CULTURAL war is to chatter about mass deportations and concentration camps.

130 theparson  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:10:52pm

I am really struggling to understand how Darwin got inserted in this discussion. I'm not a blog cop but it would seem to me that, given the seriousness of this particular subject and effort to remain on topic would make sense. However, its not my back yard.
Good night, all.

131 paxnhymn  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:10:58pm

re: #111 Dianna

I don't propose to.

In fact, I won't. I'll be polite about it as long as I can, but I will not compromise, surrender or submit.


I'm just musing philisophically of course...wondering about my future granchildren's world.

132 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:11:19pm

re: #106 Jimmy The Clam

Oh, nonsense!

There are islamic enclaves in Europe. But in no European state is the muslim population more than 20%.

The situation is not irretrievable. It certainly does not require desperate and vile solutions.

133 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:11:34pm

Just watching The Deer Hunter, the point where DeNiro shoots the deer.

I really, really, could never shoot a deer. It just ain't in me.

134 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:11:35pm

re: #99 formercorpsman

I guess my point is, do you think there are some people who do not subscribe to what they are writing, but feel things are heading in this direction?

I think that if they don't believe in what they're writing, they wouldn't be writing it. They are giving into fear or perhaps they are looking for justifications to their line of "reasoning".

135 Charles  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:12:06pm

re: #130 theparson

I am really struggling to understand how Darwin got inserted in this discussion. I'm not a blog cop but it would seem to me that, given the seriousness of this particular subject and effort to remain on topic would make sense. However, its not my back yard.
Good night, all.

I agree. Let's have that argument another time, please.

136 MandyManners  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:12:10pm

re: #131 paxnhymn

I'm just musing philisophically of course...wondering about my future granchildren's world.

I worry about The Kid's world!

137 freetoken  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:12:22pm

re: #115 Dr. Shalit

AT WHICH TIME - ALL ISRAELI MUSLIMS WILL LOSE THEIR CITIZENSHIP AND BE RELOCATED INTO THE PA. "PEACEFUL ETHNIC CLEANSING WORKS BOTH WAYS."

-S-

Is this your recommendation, or somebody else's?

138 Sol Roth  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:12:34pm

re: #107 USBeast

I would like to see everyone in the world come together in peace and harmony. Do I expect it? No.

As for the comments at GOV advocating genocide, you are correct; I did not hang around to read them and I do not agree with anyone who advocates such.

I will not, however, deny that the West's refusal to defend itself will not end in bloodshed. I do not like the idea, but I would be stupid to deny the possibility.

I take it you are an American by your nic. You must know that we have had 1.6 million service personnel defending "The West" in two fronts against Islamic nazis, going on seven years now. That includes military from Britain, Denmark and Australia.

That is the way it will be won; prosecuted by professionals, not by thugs in a wet dream.

139 JHW  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:13:08pm

re: #113 Sol Roth

That post in particular is really disgusting. Even if it was sarcasm, hard to tell with some of them, it`s so over the line that it would absolutely kill any desire I would ever have to converse with such an individual.

140 paxnhymn  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:13:48pm

gnite all....

141 Jimmy The Clam  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:13:48pm

re: #122 Honorary Yooper

Targeted executions!?! That settles it for me completely now. They are Nazis.

Not everyone that advocates or practices "targeted executions" is a Nazi.

I suggest you redefine your definitions... just a tad.

142 Sol Roth  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:14:21pm

re: #122 Honorary Yooper

No man, lampshades out of their own government officials.

143 Catttt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:14:32pm

re: #138 Sol Roth

Well put.

144 USBeast  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:15:09pm

re: #114 gman

Wtf?

Were you born after 9/11?

No, I was born a long time ago. My point was that we in America are not facing the same threat that Europe is. We still have (as long as we defend it) the Constitution. Europe is throwing away every vestige of freedom for an illusion of peace. God help them.

145 J.S.  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:15:43pm

re: #116 Catttt

On the continent (not the UK), there are specific laws (especially in Germany) which ban anything which would be expressing admiration for Hitler, etc. (no uniforms, no paraphenalia, no dressing up, no salutes, no swastika flags, none of this can be displayed in public, etc.) -- although, obviously, this isn't always enforced...and (apparently) there's quite a bit of "underground" activities...(particularly from the former East Germans).

146 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:16:05pm

I fully expect Baron Bodissey to make a retalitory post at GoV tomorrow. Either he or Dymphna. If it's her, I fully expect it to be very mean, as her other ones were before.

And to think we used to hold these folks in higher esteem. Now we can see them for the totalitarians or useful idiots they are.

147 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:16:35pm

re: #117 Dianna

I understand.

Perhaps it is the older couple who is stuck in the badlands of Paris, there home value is shot, they want to move but can't, their car was burned, and are virtual prisoners in their own country.

I think Charles has it down pat. Things like this thread topic reduce the legitimacy of western civilization, and those who wish to stand up for, when faced with the onslaught of our own rules being used against us.

It can't come down to pining for the steel cage match.

I think it is in holding our politician's feet to the fire. We are a nation of laws.

They need to uphold the law. The Constitution, the Bill of Rights. This is where I think the encroachment is defeated.

148 mjazzguitar  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:16:46pm

re: #115 Dr. Shalit

Charles & Everyone -

Just a question, PA Pres. Abbas (a/k/a 'Abu Mazen says') is coming to DC.
As usual the demand that "settlements" be stopped/dismantled. In effect the PA must be "Jew-Free." And, as always, we listen to this and SAY NOTHING. It is a Bigotry of LOW EXPECTATIONS. We expect nothing more of the Muslim Arab - tolerance of a minority population - all y'all gotta be kidding. OK, no problem, from here on out, I agree to the stoppage and dismantlement of all Israeli "settlements" in the PA - AT WHICH TIME - ALL ISRAELI MUSLIMS WILL LOSE THEIR CITIZENSHIP AND BE RELOCATED INTO THE PA. "PEACEFUL ETHNIC CLEANSING WORKS BOTH WAYS."

-S-


Not long ago an Israeli went into the West Bank to get some work done on his vehicle. It made news that he was escorted out and not kidnapped or killed. Yet israel gets the "apartheid" tag. Before the PLO came along Jews mingled freely with the arabs there.

149 Dr. Shalit  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:17:08pm

re: #137 freetoken

"free" -

I am trying my hardest to point out the ABSURDITY of the PA Position. Tough love works sometimes - and for sure we have low diplomatic expectations of the Muslim Arab - we expect them to be absurd. Glad my post got you thinking.

-S-

150 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:17:17pm

re: #127 EE

They have not - please de'immortales - gone beyond words. Words, however distasteful, are not crimes until they suggest immanent violence against identifiable persons.

I don't like them. I repudiate them, and their dark fantasies. I oppose them.

But they cannot be jailed for speaking.

151 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:17:27pm

re: #105 NY Nana

I have wondered about that. She's been rather quiet about racist European political parties recently. Makes me wonder if she see's the writing on the wall. In Europe bloggers can get away with this but in America it's the kiss of death to advocate for neo-Nazi groups.

152 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:17:46pm

re: #125 wolfie

Me, neither. Not on my worst day.

153 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:17:52pm

re: #141 Jimmy The Clam

Read the entire comment. Last I looked, it was Nazis who made lampshades (and other stuff) out of humans.

154 Racer X  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:18:05pm

re: #108 dual_boot_brain

Why is it when the going gets tough the Euros' go genocide? What is this bizarre, Wagner-ian, epic-slaughter mindset that they have? Is there something in the water that drives them to want to kill anyone who doesn't look like them?

IF the West is going to win the fight against Islamization, it will be by conversion to sanity. Not by force or genocide or deportations. Convince them Western ideology is better for the human species.

Lead by example.

155 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:18:35pm

re: #12 Dianna

What drives me crazy is the way El Ingles simply ignores the best option: don't allow the ghettoization. Insist on integration.

No kidding. Deport the imams, insist on a common language and secular instruction, tighten up quotas, and exorcise the demon of Saudi Cancer Cash from your education system?

No, don't do that. Just fantasize about playing Heinrich Himmler all over again.

The more Europe changes, the more it stays the same, eh?

I spit on GOV.

156 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:18:44pm

re: #138 Sol Roth

Excellent post Sol.

157 Alouette  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:18:48pm

Somehow we managed to destroy Nazism and Fascism and Bushido without genocide of every German, Italian and Japanese.

158 hermeneutics  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:19:49pm

How do people of such different religio-cultural outlooks live together? That's the real question: CAN THE WEST AND ISLAM CO-EXIST?

If the answer is, "no," then it is incumbent on us to decide how to deal with it without lowering ourselves to genocide.

1. We could geographically partition ourselves, for instance, like the Cyprus model.
2. We could demand that non-Westerners accept Western laws, minimally. Forcing Muslim kids to learn and respect Western values in school could be a part of this demand.
3. We could socially partition ourselves, allowing the strong ideology to dominate. This involves a confindence in Western Judeo-Christian values that we may have already lost.

What else?

If we can't co-exist, then what do we do?

159 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:19:56pm

re: #147 formercorpsman

And it is exactly this steel cage match I think these folks want so desperately. Without it, they cannot justify what they want to do, and how they want to rule.

160 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:20:12pm

I'd like to buy the world a home
And furnish it with love
Grow apple trees and honey bees
And snow white turtle doves.

It may take a while. There is some unfinished business in Europe and the Middle East.

161 Jimmy The Clam  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:20:42pm

re: #153 Honorary Yooper

Read the entire comment. Last I looked, it was Nazis who made lampshades (and other stuff) out of humans.

I did read it, but the part you singled out was the targeted executions.

162 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:21:48pm

re: #146 Honorary Yooper

I agree. I think this genocide post is a reaction to their criticism of Robert Spencer for not advocating enough action. They're whipping themselves into a frenzy.

163 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:21:51pm

re: #128 theblakester

Very simple.

No separate way of life. No sharia - not within your "communities" and not outside it.

And, if they push it far enough, if they try to deprive their sisters and daughters of their rights as citizens and free people, we will intervene to ban their practices that oppress their women. It's coercive, but I think it's acceptable on the grounds of the rights of citizens.

And, finally, if there is terrorism, their mosques will be monitored. I won't like it, but there it will be, and I will accept it. Just as I have no problem with the monitoring of "christian identity" churches, which have proven to be hotbeds of illegal activities.

164 esch  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:22:22pm

re: #126 Ojoe

What we need to do is regain a rock solid confidence in ourselves and our western values (let us admit they are mostly Judeo-Christian); when we regain this, the islamics will act puny and the problem will be over in a few generations as their children change their allegiance to the stronger group.

IMHO of course.

IF that happened, then yes the stronger moral system would probably prevail. Western culture is pretty well into the decay phase, so I consider it extremely unlikely.

The 'barbarians' are collecting at the gates. We need other solutions.

165 guzziguy  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:23:06pm

re: #133 Occasional Reader

Just watching The Deer Hunter, the point where DeNiro shoots the deer.

I really, really, could never shoot a deer. It just ain't in me.

No problem. Deer in my area, if not hunted, become overpopulated and cause all type of problems. Among the most serious of these problems is collisions with automobiles. Very dangerous. Additionally, overpopulation exposes the animals to starvation, the environment to over grazing, and pandemic illness within the herd.

All that is completely avoidable simply by letting sportsmen do something they enjoy and use to feed themselves. Game management by hunting keeps the size of the herd under control and healthy.

If we ever meet I'd love to share some venison jerky with you.

166 CapeCoddah  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:23:11pm

Correct me if I am wrong, but does that author say that here are 3 options for europe, and a little further in, say option 1 & 2 wont work, so that only leaves Genocide? Not that the firs two are sane, but, c'mon, openly and clearly advocating Genocide? I cant even comprehend that. I dont know if I would WANT to comprehend that.

167 Macker  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:23:14pm

With all this crap going on, now I have to wonder if these things which the GoV folks are espousing are the real reason Airbus developed the A380....

168 shibumi  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:23:25pm
If violence does erupt in European countries between natives and Muslims, I consider it highly likely that people who had never done anything more violent than beat eggs will prove incapable of managing the psychological transition to controlled violence and start killing anything that looks remotely Muslim.

This doesn't ring true. When Hitler invaded Poland, France, etc. did the citizens rise up and murder random German citizens? Did those of Jewish descent hunt down non-military Germans and kill them? I realize that this is stretching the point, but WWII is the last war in Europe and the most logical frame of reference.

The people of Western Europe (outside of random soccer hooligans) are culturally impotent and incapable of winning a war. This was proved in the last two world wars. If confronted with Muslim violence (unlikely, since just threatening makes the Europeans quiver in their collective boots) they will cower like frightened children and cry for the U.S. fix their problem. Sad, but true.

169 mikeinmd  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:23:28pm

In my own small way, I fight Islamization with derision and exposure.

What I just read there (comments included) makes me gag.

170 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:23:59pm

re: #161 Jimmy The Clam

I did read it, but the part you singled out was the targeted executions.

If you are pointing out some sort of moral equilvalence here, then I fail to see it. Last I looked, Israel is at war with Hamas, Europe is not at war with the Islamists within its borders. Just a slight difference there, Jimmy.

You don't do targeted executions on those who you are not at war with.

171 Racer X  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:24:04pm

re: #162 Killgore Trout

The fight between Islam and, well, pretty much everyone else, has been raging for centuries. It will not be resolved this year or next. It will take a long time.

172 Ojoe  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:24:11pm

re: #157 Alouette

Japan lost 3-4%, Germany about 10%; I am not sure about Italy.

Then there are the losses of the allies; Russia in particular lost many many.

173 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:24:12pm

re: #162 Killgore Trout

I think you hit a nerve there Killgore.

It makes quite a bit of sense.

174 Sol Roth  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:25:33pm

Thank you Cattt and formercorpsman! We must remember our brothers and sisters in arms. Here is a link posted this morning you might find interesting. [warning: tearjerker]

[Link: www.warriorsthefilm.com...]

175 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:25:49pm

Good Evening Lizards! It was glorious then rainy in the Very Far Western Suburbs of Chicagoland today.

Did we have hatchlings?

How are you-all today and what are we talking about?

176 esch  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:26:02pm

re: #164 esch

We need other solutions.

Other than genocide, mass deportations or surrender.

Just thought I'd clarify.

177 mjazzguitar  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:26:18pm

re: #145 J.S.

On the continent (not the UK), there are specific laws (especially in Germany) which ban anything which would be expressing admiration for Hitler, etc. (no uniforms, no paraphenalia, no dressing up, no salutes, no swastika flags, none of this can be displayed in public, etc.) -- although, obviously, this isn't always enforced...and (apparently) there's quite a bit of "underground" activities...(particularly from the former East Germans).

Germany even bans cults like Scientology.

178 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:26:19pm

Folks, have a good night.

I'm turning in.

Wife wants me to rub her neck.

179 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:26:38pm

re: #173 formercorpsman

This is one thing in the blog world but in the meat world it's a different story. This is the kind of stuff that drives people over the edge and there's a very real possibility that people can get hurt.

180 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:27:12pm

re: #155 Pawn of the Oppressor

That's an individual writer; don't lay it on all of Europe!

I know Ralph Peters thinks the Europeans will revert to the dark, atavistic, barbarian past, but I don't think it's inevitable.

181 freetoken  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:27:31pm

re: #163 Dianna

I take it then you may not be favor of this:

Britain: Islam helping against financial crisis

182 theblakester  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:27:37pm

#163 Dianna, while I respect your approach to this maddening scenario, let's hope the cooler heads will prevail!

183 mjazzguitar  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:27:51pm

re: #144 USBeast

No, I was born a long time ago. My point was that we in America are not facing the same threat that Europe is. We still have (as long as we defend it) the Constitution. Europe is throwing away every vestige of freedom for an illusion of peace. God help them.

We lost 3000 people from an izlamic terror attack and we are not facing the same threat?

184 Jimmy The Clam  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:28:05pm

re: #170 Honorary Yooper

If you are pointing out some sort of moral equilvalence[sic] here, then I fail to see it. Last I looked, Israel is at war with Hamas, Europe is not at war with the Islamists within its borders. Just a slight difference there, Jimmy.

You don't do targeted executions on those who you are not at war with.

You are the one making the moral equivalence argument.
I just pointed out the absurdity of your statement.

As for the rest of your post...

Can I get a show of hands from anyone here that does not think that Islam is already "at war" with Western civilization?

185 USBeast  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:28:23pm

re: #138 Sol Roth

I take it you are an American by your nic. You must know that we have had 1.6 million service personnel defending "The West" in two fronts against Islamic nazis, going on seven years now. That includes military from Britain, Denmark and Australia.

That is the way it will be won; prosecuted by professionals, not by thugs in a wet dream.

Yes, I am an American. I am damned proud of that fact. My nickname is short for Ugly Smelly Beast.

Any implication that I denigrate the efforts of the brave men and women of the military of any of the countries who are working to preserve the blessings of liberty is pure slander.

Any implications that I denigrate the Leftist politicos that are trying to sell us off to Dhimmitude are totally justified.

186 J.S.  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:28:46pm

re: #177 mjazzguitar

That's right. They have extremely strict laws with respect to what constitutes a "religion" -- Scientology doesn't cut it...it's considered a "cult" and is under constant scrutiny...(legitimate religions receive government monies).

187 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:28:55pm

re: #179 Killgore Trout

I know I said I'm gone, but i just saw your post.

I never put the 2 together until you mentioned it.

Mr. Spencer opining how he did.

Good observation.

Up there with the thread about paying for Hamas news guys.

188 NY Nana  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:29:00pm

re: #136 MandyManners

I worry about The Kid's world!

So do I, for oyur Kid...and my 3 grandkids and my own kids..what kind of a world are we giving them?

We cannot afford to ignore the current situation, yet those on the left sit in a circle jerk, singing 'kumbaya'...they are the enemy, along with the cult of islam, and those who 'forgot' 9/11, and far too many others.

189 Ojoe  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:29:08pm

re: #164 esch

an interesting take on your point in an interview witth Ratzinger before he became the current Pope:


the quote is from a book-length interview w/ then Cardinal Ratzinger, entitled God and the World. Hows’ that for a broad and vast subject? An excerpt:
Question:
Many years ago, you made a prophetic statement about the Church of the future: ‘The Church,’ you said at that time, ‘will become small, and will to a great
extent have to start over again. But after a time of testing, an internalized and simplified Church will radiate great power and influence; for the population of an entirely planned and controlled world are going to be inexpressibly lonely...and they will then
discover the little community of believers as something quite new - as a hope that is there for them, as the answer they have secretly always been asking for.’ It looks as though you are going to be right about this. But how are things going to develop in Europe?
Ratzinger/Benedict XVI:
First of all: Is the Church really going to get smaller? When I said that, I was reproached from all sides for pessimism. And nowadays nothing seems less tolerated than what people call pessimism - and which is often in fact just realism. Meanwhile, most people admit that at the present stage of things in Europe the number of baptized Christians is simply dwindling. In a city like Magdeburg, only 8 percent of the people are still Christians - and mark you, that’s all kinds of Christians, put together. Such statistical findings show the existence of trends that are indisputable. In that sense, the extent to which church and society are seen as synonymous in some cultural areas, with us in Germany, for instance, will diminish. We simply have to face up to this.

this is from the Anchoress:

[Link: theanchoressonline.com...]

190 rockdad  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:30:28pm

re: #154 Racer X

I've heard 3 plus times now, Muslim's will have to change and see the light. Why, when with low European birthrates and high Muslim birthrates, the exponential changes in the dominant cultures will only accelerate. The only change will be the government policy's of the future to sharia, I fear.
What can be done about that, besides changing a 1600 year old ROP, which I see no outward movement of? Just a question.

191 Catttt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:30:37pm

re: #151 Killgore Trout

I have wondered about that. She's been rather quiet about racist European political parties recently. Makes me wonder if she see's the writing on the wall. In Europe bloggers can get away with this but in America it's the kiss of death to advocate for neo-Nazi groups.

To quote the Blues Brothers:

Elwood: Illinois Nazis.
Jake: I hate Illinois Nazis.

192 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:31:02pm

re: #172 Ojoe

20 million, at least.

193 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:31:26pm

I can understand deportation of those who won't live in peace with Western values. If you choose to live somewhere, you should be willing to accept their societal norms; when in Rome and all that. And they have many countries they can go to and live in peace.

But calling for killing of any group is repulsive. And worse, once this crowd is done with the Muslims, can the Jews be that far behind?
Even if they come for my enemy, I have to speak up, because I can be next.

194 MandyManners  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:31:38pm

re: #188 NY Nana

So do I, for oyur Kid...and my 3 grandkids and my own kids..what kind of a world are we giving them?

We cannot afford to ignore the current situation, yet those on the left sit in a circle jerk, singing 'kumbaya'...they are the enemy, along with the cult of islam, and those who 'forgot' 9/11, and far too many others.

I reckon all we can do on a personal level is ensure that our kids are taught their American history and heritage, and the truth about Islam.

195 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:31:59pm

re: #160 Kreuzueber Halbmond

You know, that is a nice idea. I'm not sure I would particularly like a lot of honey bees, or snow-white turtle doves. Maybe some pink ones or jet black ones.

Utopia is a fantasy simply because everyone's version of it is different.

Heaven on Earth means we all have to die first --I think that is where the islamawhackos want us all to be.

196 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:32:25pm

re: #181 freetoken

Not one little bit.

197 gman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:33:20pm

re: #144 USBeast

No, I was born a long time ago. My point was that we in America are not facing the same threat that Europe is. We still have (as long as we defend it) the Constitution. Europe is throwing away every vestige of freedom for an illusion of peace. God help them.

Did you miss the Berkeley post today, the Terrorist Fundraisers post yesterday, and the hundreds of posts before that describing how the Islamic Jihadists are actively trying to undermine our way of life here in America?

198 mich-again  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:33:43pm

Odd, but just the other day I read a story in which Bumpy Zawahiri actually kind of agreed with that post.

In another answer Tuesday, al-Zawahiri said it was against Islamic religious law for any Muslim to live permanently in a Western country, because in doing so, they would "have permanent stay there under the laws of the infidels."

So I guess we have found at least one person who agrees with GoV. Nice company you are keeping there Baron Bodissey.

199 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:33:44pm
200 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:34:00pm

re: #184 Jimmy The Clam

I hate to tell you this, but their being at war with us is not the point.

The point is how we will respond.

201 Yankee Division Son  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:34:12pm

Dachau, why do we keep it standing?


"There is an answer to the doctor's question. All the Dachaus must remain standing. The Dachaus, the Belsens, the Buchenwalds, the Auschwitzes - all of them. They must remain standing because they are a monument to a moment in time when some men decided to turn the Earth into a graveyard. Into it they shoveled all their reason, their logic, their knowledge, but worst of all, their conscience. And the moment we forget this, the moment we cease to be haunted by its remembrance, then we become the gravediggers. Something to dwell on and remember, not only in the Twilight Zone but wherever men walk God's Earth."

And the Gusens as well... Never Forget.

202 joecitizen  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:35:02pm

re: #194 MandyManners

I reckon all we can do on a personal level is ensure that our kids are taught their American history and heritage, and the truth about Islam.

and a healthy working knowledge of firearms and survival skills won't hurt either..

203 esch  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:35:23pm

re: #186 J.S.

That's right. They have extremely strict laws with respect to what constitutes a "religion" -- Scientology doesn't cut it...it's considered a "cult" and is under constant scrutiny...(legitimate religions receive government monies).

They have a long track record of persecuting minority faiths.

It doesn't really matter, as Germany's native population is imploding so fast that the country will be entirely different in 30 years.

204 mjazzguitar  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:36:06pm

re: #188 NY Nana

So do I, for oyur Kid...and my 3 grandkids and my own kids..what kind of a world are we giving them?

We cannot afford to ignore the current situation, yet those on the left sit in a circle jerk, singing 'kumbaya'...they are the enemy, along with the cult of islam, and those who 'forgot' 9/11, and far too many others.

You're right, people are "igonore-ant", trying to raise a family while wondering how long the present job will last, and trying to find some enjoyment in life at the same time. Worrying does no good, but soemtimes it's hard not to.

205 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:36:38pm

Baron retorts (sort of)....
I Hear My Train A-Comin’

Comment: "The perfect reply to the Grand Poohbah of Idiots. What a maroon Charles is."

uhhhhh....what?

206 Thanos  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:36:57pm

Dang, I thought the VB fan I was "discussing things with" had fled up here.

Ah well, I"m sure some will show up on the morrow.

207 Sol Roth  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:37:14pm

re: #185 USBeast

Yes, I am an American. I am damned proud of that fact. My nickname is short for Ugly Smelly Beast.

Any implication that I denigrate the efforts of the brave men and women of the military of any of the countries who are working to preserve the blessings of liberty is pure slander.

Any implications that I denigrate the Leftist politicos that are trying to sell us off to Dhimmitude are totally justified.

Whoa! Hold on there! I don't snark and there were zero implications of you denigrating the military's efforts. I was filling in hole left in your posts that seemed fatalistic, like you had forgotten the effort. I'm sure you are a patriotic American or you wouldn't be posting here.

Friends?

208 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:37:25pm

Garbage time, then probably walkies for the dogs, then I think we're heading for bed, so I'm signing off.

Goodnight, lizards.

209 joecitizen  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:37:38pm

re: #202 joecitizen

and a healthy working knowledge of firearms and survival skills won't hurt either..


oh, and Shakespeare..

210 shibumi  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:37:49pm

re: #190 rockdad

I've heard 3 plus times now, Muslim's will have to change and see the light. Why, when with low European birthrates and high Muslim birthrates, the exponential changes in the dominant cultures will only accelerate. The only change will be the government policy's of the future to sharia, I fear.
What can be done about that, besides changing a 1600 year old ROP, which I see no outward movement of? Just a question.

Well, individual governments can use tax incentives for people to have children- they did something similar in Russia recently. They could also encourage schools to teach civic/national pride. They could mandate assimilation, and get rid of Muslim only ghettos. Or even better, send missionaries into those enclaves and encourage them to convert to Christianity.

(Yea, I know the last suggestion will never happen. As for the rest, they're doubtful too. But they could be done.)

211 freetoken  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:38:37pm

re: #196 Dianna

Not one little bit.

That video mentioned "sukak bonds" but I think they meant Sukuk bonds, no?

Anyway, if the UK is now issuing such bonds, can the US Treasury be far behind? We need to borrow lots (and lots) of money, and with the sovereign wealth funds of the Persian Gulf being likely buyers, what if they start requesting such types of bonds?

212 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:38:43pm

re: #166 CapeCoddah

Correct me if I am wrong, but does that author say that here are 3 options for europe, and a little further in, say option 1 & 2 wont work, so that only leaves Genocide? Not that the firs two are sane, but, c'mon, openly and clearly advocating Genocide? I cant even comprehend that. I dont know if I would WANT to comprehend that.

Interesting- there are three options- 1 & 2 won't work leaving 3, but he's not advocating 3! He takes all that time to discuss option 3, after disregarding 1 & 2, but then says he's not advocating it. So- he wasted his time writing all of that?

Of course not- because really he is advocating for option 3. Otherwise he would have spent more time finding something workable. Because the truth is- there are more than these three options anyways.

How about- enforcing their existing laws, for a start. Jail people burning cars. Maybe they should start with a few things like that before running towards slaughter. People like this author don't want that- they have an insatiable blood-lust, and the counter-jihad movement gives them great cover.

213 realwest  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:39:01pm

Hey y'all - what have I missed?! LOL!

214 Dr. Shalit  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:39:31pm

re: #196 Dianna

Not one little bit.

Dianna -

Take it one step further - Islam forbids "interest" - AND - allows "rent."
Not too hard to figure out, eh?

-S-

215 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:39:37pm

re: #205 Killgore Trout

I saw that too- and I was wondering- does that train run on time?

216 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:39:38pm

re: #189 Ojoe

At the risk of derailing this thread (again) I don't expect the Pope to be of much help on the issue of Islam in Europe. He's a toothless diplomat with waning influence in Europe. He'll maintain the status quo at best.

217 Charles  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:40:15pm

re: #205 Killgore Trout

Baron retorts (sort of)....
I Hear My Train A-Comin’

Comment: "The perfect reply to the Grand Poohbah of Idiots. What a maroon Charles is."

uhhhhh....what?

That's not going to satisfy the creeps who read his blog; there will be more.

It's always nice to read about people fantasizing that I'll be crushed by a train, though.

218 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:40:25pm

re: #215 Sharmuta

Ha!

219 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:40:30pm

re: #213 realwest

Hey rw --how'd it go today?

Still on the GOV discussion.

220 USBeast  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:40:32pm

re: #183 mjazzguitar

We lost 3000 people from an izlamic terror attack and we are not facing the same threat?

No sir, we are not facing the same threat. We do not have "Asian youths" burning cars in our streets. None of our cartoonists are in hiding. No Muslim apostates are pleading for government protection from the "Religion of Peace".

Europe is a battleground. Unless and until we recognize that fact, we put ourselves in the same position the deniers of Hitler's threat put us in in 1939.

221 TalkinKamel  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:40:41pm

#193 Kosh's Shadow

Reading some of the comments over there, I'm getting the funny feeling that the Jews would actually be first if these guys came to power---and they'd probably never get around to tackling Islam; might even make an alliance with them, as in WWII.

You know, these guys supporters all talk as if these characters were the mighty Euro Rangers or something, boldly standing up to the Islamist threat when everybody else is running away. . . but, honestly, what have they actually accomplished? Groups such as Vlaams Belang seem famous mainly for getting into fights with their own country's police, stunts such as laying wreaths on Nazi graves and, as in the case of the British Lionheart, an obsession with drugs and the prostitution of European women (Zionist porn dragon, anybody?) , but, seriously, what have they actually accomplished? Have they brought any terrorists to justice? Uncovered any plots? Where were they when the St. George's Day parade was cancelled, for fear of offending Moslems? If they're so brave and stalwart, why didn't they just go ahead and hold the parade anyway? Why didn't they pressure local authorities not to cave in? And when I last checked, drug abuse, and prostitution of too many women, from all over the world, was still going on, so they haven't been real effective there, either.

As for Dymphna, and the Baron. . . well, the Baron was doing some good work when he investigated Jamat al Furqa, but these days GoV seems to be all about what's going on in Europe, and defending BNP and Vlaams Belang.

222 reno911  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:40:49pm

Darwin will sort it all out.

223 NY Nana  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:40:54pm

re: #151 Killgore Trout

I have wondered about that. She's been rather quiet about racist European political parties recently. Makes me wonder if she see's the writing on the wall. In Europe bloggers can get away with this but in America it's the kiss of death to advocate for neo-Nazi groups.

To be honest, I do not read her blog any more. To me it is a conundrum..she is an ardent Zionist, yet at the same time, she was on the side of neo-nazis, and what she posted elsewhere during the first blog war was just despicable.

I just hope for her daughters' sake she has woken up.

To this day, I cannot believe what she posted here that night, and how she addressed Charles, the man she had called her 'blog daddy'..but for me, as a Jew, her saying that 'all Europeans worked both sides of the street' or something like that, during WWII, and when she was told off by everyone for such a hateful, hurtful remark, she used her family members who died in the ovens as a shield. Why she did not think of them when she aligned herself with neo-nazis and fascists, I do not understand even 6 months later.

224 Racer X  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:40:54pm

re: #190 rockdad

I've heard 3 plus times now, Muslim's will have to change and see the light. Why, when with low European birthrates and high Muslim birthrates, the exponential changes in the dominant cultures will only accelerate. The only change will be the government policy's of the future to sharia, I fear.
What can be done about that, besides changing a 1600 year old ROP, which I see no outward movement of? Just a question.

Excellent question. What needs to change?

1. Immigration laws. Immigrants must adhere to the laws of the country they emigrate to.

2. Immigrants must adopt the customs of the new country - not the other way around.

3. Terrorism. Any group that advocates or supports terrorist groups must be severely punished. They have to understand that will not be tolerated. Period.

225 mich-again  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:41:31pm

re: #216 Killgore Trout

I don't expect the Pope to be of much help...

There you go again.

226 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:41:42pm

re: #216 Killgore Trout

He'll hole up in the Vatican with a few true believers and the Swiss Guard --they'll emerge in 200 years when the radiation clears.

227 Catttt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:41:44pm

re: #195 ggt

Most people assume Utopia means "%u03B5%u1F56 %u03C4%u03CC%u03C0%u03BF%u03C2" - "good place" - and forget that it also means "%u03BF%u1F50 %u03C4%u03CC%u03C0%u03BF%u03C2" - "no place." (I read everything I could find about Thomas More as a teen - blame Robert Bolt).

228 realwest  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:42:08pm

re: #217 Charles Hey Charles, it could be worse - they could be fantasizing that you'll come over to their side!
(boy, talk about a fantasy!).

229 J.S.  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:42:31pm

re: #168 shibumi

There are 3,200 (approx) German troops in northern Afghanistan. Lately, German politicians have come under fire from their NATO allies, because German politicians have refused to send in more troops...(Canadians are also in Afghanistan, but in the more dangerous areas...)

230 mich-again  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:42:43pm

re: #224 Racer X

I agree with 1 and 3 completely. 2, not so much.

231 NY Nana  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:43:27pm

re: #194 MandyManners

I reckon all we can do on a personal level is ensure that our kids are taught their American history and heritage, and the truth about Islam.

Exactly! Your Kid is a very lucky one.

232 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:44:25pm

re: #223 NY Nana

I suspect she convinced herself that as long as they outwardly adopted a pro-Israel stance it was justifiable. I also suspect her solutions to the trouble with Islam are rather extreme by our standards. I'm sure she's a nice person but she's lost her mind.

233 mich-again  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:44:34pm

re: #226 ggt

He'll hole up in the Vatican with a few true believers and the Swiss Guard --they'll emerge in 200 years when the radiation clears.

They will live 200 years holed up in the Vatican? Wow. Dudes already over 80 and you think he has another 120+ years in him?

234 Ojoe  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:44:34pm

re: #216 Killgore Trout

Unexpected things may happen, such as Gorbachev declaring that he is a Christian.

235 wolfie  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:44:34pm

re: #193 Kosh's Shadow

"Can the Jews be far behind?"
In my opinion, NO. Unless you consider ten seconds "far behind."
That's just my opinion.

236 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:44:38pm

re: #221 TalkinKamel

Reading the comments- one person suggested that Jews and Catholics be barred from holding any positions of power. I really don't think they see how they are as much haters as the islamists they claim to oppose. I mean- islam bars "people of the book" from positions of power! These people are fascists!

237 realwest  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:44:46pm

re: #219 ggt Ok, I guess, they want MORE tests. Still won't know until I see my onc on Tuesday what's really going on.
Thanks for asking and we now return you to your regularly scheduled program!

238 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:44:50pm

re: #227 Catttt

I've still not been able to get thru Sir Thomas. I've read alot about him and his works --and other utopian/dystopia themes, but I found both his and Plato's Republic as boring as Beowulf. I do keep trying.

239 SusanL  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:45:00pm

re: #177 mjazzguitar

I'm not surprised the Germans banned Scientology, those people are crazy. I look at John Travolta and am just baffled.

I hope this fascist view does not find a legitimate voice. I have witnessed first hand how a crowd can be "whipped into a frenzy". When we were stationed in West Germany (1981) my ex-husband got us involved with Amway. We went to a recruiting program that was held in a large auditorium in Saarbrucken. The response of the crowd, the chanting, the adoration of the speakers....Wow at that moment, I understood how the right words from the right speaker, really can be dangerous.

Funny thing, even my (long list of negative, unflattering adjectives) ex-husband was taken aback. Needless to say, that was the end of the Amway.

Incitement. There are reasons that it is a crime.

240 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:45:08pm

re: #225 mich-again

I know. I can't help it.

241 rorschach  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:45:48pm

I tried reading the Gates post, but it was so l-o-n-g.

What did suddenly strike me, in the first thousand or so words, was the sheer desperation that the resident Europeans and Brits must feel at having their homeland stolen, inch by inch.

I'm worried about the situation in the U.S. They must be absolutely terrified.

242 MandyManners  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:45:59pm

re: #202 joecitizen

and a healthy working knowledge of firearms and survival skills won't hurt either..

Those are part of history and heritage.

243 Racer X  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:46:00pm

re: #230 mich-again

I agree with 1 and 3 completely. 2, not so much.

What I meant by #2 was in reference to things like clitorectomies. That custom could be left at the border.

244 Promethea  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:46:18pm

re: #70 Dianna

Refer to my #12.

Oh, and stop muslim immigration for a while. Certainly, they don't get to import child-brides any more!

If the U.S. government would use a little "tough love," and require the Muslims to follow the rules that the rest of us are supposed to follow, then most of the problems would generally disappear after a few decades (I tend to think in terms of decades). Ditto for Muslim preachers not preaching hate and mass murder in their mosques. If calling for murder is against the law for non-Muslims, then it's also against the law for Muslims. That would take care of a lot of jihad-talk and Jew-killing talk in Wahhabist-dominated mosques in the U.S.A.

Sometimes the solutions to problems are rather simple.

245 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:46:20pm

re: #221 TalkinKamel

#193 Kosh's Shadow

Reading some of the comments over there, I'm getting the funny feeling that the Jews would actually be first if these guys came to power---and they'd probably never get around to tackling Islam; might even make an alliance with them, as in WWII.


Thanks. You make a good point.
And thanks to Charles and lizards for not making alliances with people like this.

246 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:46:23pm

re: #216 Killgore Trout

At the risk of derailing this thread (again) I don't expect the Pope to be of much help on the issue of Islam in Europe. He's a toothless diplomat with waning influence in Europe. He'll maintain the status quo at best.

I asked a very smart man to translate something in Italian the Pope had written when he was first ordained. It wasn't available anywhere in English and I could only make out part of it.

So I say, what's it say?
and he says:
Well, basically it says
"I will be of absolutely no use to you in the coming troubles. God bless you"

;~}

247 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:46:28pm

re: #233 mich-again

You know --the next Pope and the next. The Church has been around along time, they think in centuries, not years, or days or minutes. I have no doubt there is a contingency plan.

248 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:46:35pm

re: #222 reno911

IXnay on the Arwinday!

249 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:46:37pm
250 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:47:09pm

re: #246 BabbaZee

Ha!

251 Ojoe  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:47:30pm

re: #247 ggt

The Church sees the biggest of the big pictures

252 wolfie  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:48:12pm

re: #208 Dianna

Goodnight. And thanks for so many clear thoughts!

253 joecitizen  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:48:15pm

re: #238 ggt

I've still not been able to get thru Sir Thomas. I've read alot about him and his works --and other utopian/dystopia themes, but I found both his and Plato's Republic as boring as Beowulf. I do keep trying.

Beowulf is da bomb..Plato was a homogenizing punk..

254 mich-again  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:48:23pm

re: #194 MandyManners

I reckon all we can do on a personal level is ensure that our kids are taught their American history and heritage, and the truth about Islam.

Teach them to love. You can't go wrong with that.

255 Sol Roth  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:48:38pm

Buenas noches a todos.

SR

256 Ojoe  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:49:00pm

re: #254 mich-again

Get them in Scouts too.

257 MandyManners  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:49:07pm

re: #231 NY Nana

Exactly! Your Kid is a very lucky one.

So are yours and theirs.

258 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:49:19pm
259 realwest  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:49:40pm

re: #254 mich-again Hey mich! I think if you teach them to demand respect first, the love will follow. But respect in public matters and from "the people" I think comes before love.

260 Catttt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:50:02pm

re: #225 mich-again

There you go again.

President Reagan, is that you? ;)

261 realwest  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:50:17pm

re: #255 Sol Roth Manana, amigo!

262 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:50:27pm

re: #241 rorschach

First of all- the fascists are counting on that fear to sweep them into power.

Second- fear is not a legitimate reason to excuse fascism or give in to genocidal fantasies.

If they want to do something- they should start with enforcing their laws.

263 J.S.  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:50:49pm

re: #203 esch

I consider Scientology a cult, not a religion. (I'm actually sympathetic to German authorities who wish to ban Scientology -- Scientology is not recognized as a "religion" in Germany, but it's not "banned" -- not yet, anyway. Last year there were some politicians who were attempting to get it outright banned...but I don't believe their efforts have been successful. For over ten years the Germany authorities have been monitoring Scientology offices...)

264 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:51:22pm
265 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:51:54pm

re: #254 mich-again

and boundries = what Love does not mean.

Love does not mean giving up your responsibilty to defend yourselves, your family and your home.

Love does not mean giving to others until you cannot feed yourself.

Love does not mean accepting bad things because it is respectful.

. . . . .

266 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:52:20pm
267 MandyManners  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:52:42pm

re: #254 mich-again

re: #194 MandyManners


Teach them to love. You can't go wrong with that.

I can't teach him to love as I am teaching the tangible stuff. The love is picked up in a million ways every day.

268 USBeast  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:52:51pm

re: #207 Sol Roth

Whoa! Hold on there! I don't snark and there were zero implications of you denigrating the military's efforts. I was filling in hole left in your posts that seemed fatalistic, like you had forgotten the effort. I'm sure you are a patriotic American or you wouldn't be posting here.

Friends?

Hail and well met.

I am by no means fatalistic. I believe that Liberty will prevail. My fear is that the cost will be blood and slaughter.

I HATE this idea, but I will not deny the possibility or its preferability to Dhimmitude.

269 Promethea  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:52:52pm

re: #77 Sharmuta

The crypto-fascists of europe fan the flames of fear because it helps them rise to power. Things aren't just bad- they're terrible, and if you elect us we'll make it stop. Things are bad, but not so bad as to excuse turning to fascist solutions.

As I said in a previous post (#244), a lot of problems could be solved if responsible governments just used common sense and applied the law. For example, the U.K. just refused to take down Somali pirates because they might be "persecuted" in Somalia. Is that not stupid? Luckily the French decided to capture the pirates, and, I hope, do what governments are supposed to do to pirates.

It's time for us normal people to demand common sense from our various governments. That includes prosecuting criminal behavior.

270 marsouin  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:53:02pm

Although GoV's has indeed gone overboard, but the situation in Europe is dire. Large muslim communities and Western culture can never co-exist: at the end of this century only one of the two will be left standing in Europe. The few euros who get this rightly see their civilization in a battle for its own existence and legacy, and they feel the odds are against success. This frustration is understandable, but the solution is not.

However, I find the odds of a orgy of violence in the next 20 years is, unfortunately, very likely. The targets: those elites, socialists all, who have sold out their heritage for lust of power, and the newcomers who refuse or cannot assimilate.

The same thing may happen here in the US as different ethnic groups fight over the crumbs of socialist largesse. (We are no longer living under the Founder's constitution since its replacement by a social democratic model in the late 1930's.) All to the detriment of the future of the US: there are no longer core values that unite us. We are becoming more and more splintered, with newcomers instructed not to assimilate. I doubt the US will be recognizable 100 years from now, if it still exists as one single country.

271 mich-again  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:53:06pm

re: #241 rorschach

I tried reading the Gates post, but it was so l-o-n-g.

Fjordman's trademark is the 10,000 word essay that can be summed up in three words. Deport the Muslims. I could not stand his bullshit when he posted here. Dude. Save everyone some time and shed the 9,997 useless words.

272 gman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:53:09pm

re: #220 USBeast

Europe is a battleground. Unless and until we recognize that fact, we put ourselves in the same position the deniers of Hitler's threat put us in in 1939.

Where have I heard this type of thinking before? Oh yeah. GoV and BJ

273 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:53:20pm

re: #264 song_and_dance_man

lol
I got my shock and awe alright
it just wasn't the shock and awe I voted for

274 JHW  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:53:55pm

One of the many things I object to about these people is their insistence
that it`s now late in the 11th hour and if we don`t do something right now, we`re doomed. Their next question is what else can we do, give me some solutions right now.They`re in a near panic mode.

They can demand more of their mainstream political parties. Dianna gave excellent examples of what can be done, soon, without selling out our ideals or humanity. Most European countries, unlike the US, have state-supported religions. It`s about time to put that power to constructive use, pre-emptively training Muslim clerics with a reform, Westernized outlook. It can and is being done, as I posted in a spin-off link some time ago. The Imans are the key and rabble-rousers in all this.

No state has a right to subvert another state. That means Saudi Arabia doesn`t have an automatic right to export Wahabism anywhere it wants. It`s long past time the blind eye was turned to their propagandizing , and their actions religious extremist imports need to be curtailed or de-fanged consistent with the rule of law in civilized countries.

I`m not so pessimistic about the Islamic world, i.e. their all being identical fanatics waiting to happen. It`s the imans that are poisoning the well, I say that because I very much doubt most Muslims know much about the Koran, it`s in a foreign , Arabic, language. They know what the imans tell them, and they know the 5 pillars of Islam, but they`re profoundly ignorant of most else.They memorize a book in madrassas that they don`t understand a word of. Somehow, we`re going to have to get a grip on the wahabbi and the iman problem. Their are large Muslim ethnic minorities, right now, in some parts of the world. That are practically 5 Pillar Muslims only, such as the Chams of Southeast Asia. If I`m not mistaken, they even raise pigs for sale to their non-Muslim neighbors.

All this is above my pay grade, but it`s what we pay our political leaders to do, and we should demand it of them. I`ve really had enough of either pretending there`s no problem or indulging in doom and gloom pessimism.

275 rorschach  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:54:03pm
#262 Sharmuta
If they want to do something- they should start with enforcing their laws.

That's the problem. Average folks have no control over the powers that be. The people would enforce the laws if they only could.

276 NY Nana  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:54:54pm

re: #232 Killgore Trout

I suspect she convinced herself that as long as they outwardly adopted a pro-Israel stance it was justifiable. I also suspect her solutions to the trouble with Islam are rather extreme by our standards. I'm sure she's a nice person but she's lost her mind.

I agree with you. I think, too, that her blog success, which she has worked very hard on, has gone to her head...sad. I just went there, and it is quite good...nothing re the neo-nazis, and GoV.

277 realwest  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:55:27pm

re: #269 Promethea Are you sure it was the French that took down those pirates? I thought I read a news item that it was
another African government that had it's troops board that ship and "capture" the pirates, badly wounding three of the pirates?

278 joecitizen  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:55:44pm

re: #266 buzzsawmonkey

To Beowulf or not to Beowulf...that is the question.

whether 'tis nobler to accept the slings and arrows of the middle ages...

279 ploome hineni[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:55:48pm
280 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:56:07pm

re: #274 JHW

Excellent post.

281 ploome hineni[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:56:32pm
282 Fionn MacCumhaill  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:56:59pm

My prediction is that the European situation will finally rupture in a completely unexpected way, sparked by something that starts small that finally pushes the original European populations past their limits, much in the way that the Romanian communist dictatorship was taken down. It will be a surprise to everybody, even the people who start it. I expect that it will be much like the orgy of violence that erupted in India after independence in 1948 - too disorganized to be accurately described as genocide, at least at the beginning.

At some point, however, the armies of the nations in which these events will happen will get involved, in some way or another, and some of these armies may well be as fragmented as the civilian populations.

283 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:57:03pm

re: #274 JHW

I've been getting that feeling (11th hour paranoia) every morning when I listen to the drive-time radio. It's been about 8 days now.

-Food Riots in Haiti
-Stores limiting the amount of rice people can buy because they are shipping it back to their country of origin.
-Brazil halting the export of rice
-Gas Prices and Diesel Prices
-The Mortgage Crisis
-Death tolls in Chicago (gun violence, of course)

It just seems so strange that we are hearing about this, now, in such repetition and urgency -- IN AN ELECTION YEAR

284 NY Nana  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:57:06pm

re: #257 MandyManners

Thanks, Mandy. We go to see the nearly-20 month old one tommorow!

285 mjazzguitar  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:57:26pm

re: #220 USBeast

No sir, we are not facing the same threat. We do not have "Asian youths" burning cars in our streets. None of our cartoonists are in hiding. No Muslim apostates are pleading for government protection from the "Religion of Peace".

Europe is a battleground. Unless and until we recognize that fact, we put ourselves in the same position the deniers of Hitler's threat put us in in 1939.

Same threat, different manifestations thereof.

286 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:57:32pm
287 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:57:39pm

re: #279 ploome hineni

Righteous Rant, mine Ploomella!

AMEN

288 wolfie  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:58:03pm

re: #255 Sol Roth

Buenas noches a todos.

SR

Y a ti tambien! G'nite!

289 JHW  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:58:06pm

re: #280 Killgore Trout

Thanks, sometimes I wonder if I`m making sense. :)

290 gman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:58:38pm

re: #262 Sharmuta

First of all- the fascists are counting on that fear to sweep them into power.

Second- fear is not a legitimate reason to excuse fascism or give in to genocidal fantasies.

If they want to do something- they should start with enforcing their laws.

Well said.

291 TalkinKamel  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:58:47pm

re: #241 rorschach

Their homeland hasn't been stolen inch by inch; it's been given away, over a period of decades.

I'm sorry for Great Britain and Europe, but their current predicament is partly their own fault, for a number of reasons. Their residual anti-semetism has led them to demonize Israel, while appeasing Moslems. Their love of the welfare state, and unwillingness to reproduce themselves at even replacement level, has led to the current immigration mess. (Somebody's got to work, to keep those socialist states going); their inability to name the enemy, their naive belief in multiculturalism, their voting in corrupt and incompetent leaders such as Red Ken Livingston and George Galloway and their unwillingness to uphold their own laws when "youths" riot and torch cars has helped bring them to their current impasse. And re-adopting Nazism isn't going to help, it's just going to make things worse. I realize they're scared, but they really have to start making some hard decisions, to pull themselves out of their current mess, they have to do it on their own, and, sorry, facism isn't the answer.

292 Racer X  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:59:06pm

re: #260 Catttt

Wow! Found this awesome speech by Reagan . Still rings true today.

293 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:59:45pm

re: #275 rorschach

That's the problem. Average folks have no control over the powers that be. The people would enforce the laws if they only could.

Have elections been canceled in europe?

294 Catttt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:59:51pm

re: #238 ggt

I've still not been able to get thru Sir Thomas. I've read alot about him and his works --and other utopian/dystopia themes, but I found both his and Plato's Republic as boring as Beowulf. I do keep trying.

Heh. I was not able to finish Beowulf - I highly recommend the movie with (sigh) Gerard Butler as Beowulf.

Thomas Pynchon also stopped me cold.

295 USBeast  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:00:01pm

re: #272 gman

Europe is a battleground. Unless and until we recognize that fact, we put ourselves in the same position the deniers of Hitler's threat put us in in 1939.

Where have I heard this type of thinking before? Oh yeah. GoV and BJ

Gman, I'm familiar with "GoV" but not "BJ".

As to "this type of thinking" where am I wrong?

296 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:00:22pm
297 mich-again  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:00:45pm

re: #256 Ojoe

re: #259 realwest

But respect in public matters and from "the people" I think comes before love.

I say nothing comes before love. I have a real hard time always practicing the "treat your neighbor as yourself" advice, but that is the ideal.

298 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:01:00pm

re: #289 JHW

You always make sense IMO

/But that may be counted against you, lol

299 MandyManners  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:01:21pm

re: #284 NY Nana

Thanks, Mandy. We go to see the nearly-20 month old one tommorow!

Have fun snuggling!

300 Catttt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:01:47pm

re: #248 Killgore Trout

IXnay on the Arwinday!

You picked one of the two foreign languages I can read! /

301 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:01:55pm

re: #292 Racer X

144,00 updings
I love that clip

302 mjazzguitar  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:02:13pm

re: #239 SusanL

I'm not surprised the Germans banned Scientology, those people are crazy. I look at John Travolta and am just baffled.

I hope this fascist view does not find a legitimate voice. I have witnessed first hand how a crowd can be "whipped into a frenzy". When we were stationed in West Germany (1981) my ex-husband got us involved with Amway. We went to a recruiting program that was held in a large auditorium in Saarbrucken. The response of the crowd, the chanting, the adoration of the speakers....Wow at that moment, I understood how the right words from the right speaker, really can be dangerous.

Funny thing, even my (long list of negative, unflattering adjectives) ex-husband was taken aback. Needless to say, that was the end of the Amway.

Incitement. There are reasons that it is a crime.


The charismatics like to get all whipped up also.

303 JeremyR  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:02:18pm

Didn't bother to go to the grates. I'm assuming Charles posted his saner remarks, and the rest would be down hill.

304 freetoken  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:02:55pm

re: #291 TalkinKamel

[...], to pull themselves out of their current mess, they have to do it on their own, and, sorry, facism isn't the answer.

VDH: That Old Isolationist Tug

305 ploome hineni[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:03:07pm
306 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:03:29pm

re: #282 Fionn MacCumhaill

I find that unlikely. I think that Europe will start reconsidering its immigration policies and monitoring mosques and islamist groups more carefully. Foreign Imams and Suadi funded mosques will be controlled and limited. Muslims are already pariahs in much of the western world because of terrorism. I suspect that Western muslims will find a way to dissociate themselves from their radical cousins in the Middle East. I'll even go further and suggest that eventually this Westernized Enlightened version of Islam will be exported and replace Wahabism in the Magic Kingdom.

307 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:03:36pm

re: #294 Catttt

Is that the new one --it wasn't bad --it also wasn't good.

I'll never appreciate Beowulf.

Now, Gilgamesh --somehow, I liked that one.

308 TalkinKamel  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:03:57pm

#245 Kosh's Shadow

{Kosh!}

309 Catttt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:04:28pm

re: #292 Racer X

Wow! Found this awesome speech by Reagan . Still rings true today.

I love that speech. He was right on the money, and it does still ring true.

310 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:04:38pm

re: #302 mjazzguitar

The charismatics like to get all whipped up also.

I'm expecting The Obammunists will soon go dervish

311 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:04:49pm
312 rorschach  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:04:50pm
#291 TalkinKamel

All true...

I'm just saying, there's a lot of regular folks over there who have no control over the decisions made by their "betters". Hell, Britain became a welfare state in what, 1910 or so?

They've been manipulated by the media and lied to by the goverment for at least a century.

They're helpless and they're scared to death.

313 TalkinKamel  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:04:59pm

#305 Ploome Hineni

I doing fine, Ploome!

{Ploome!}

314 JHW  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:05:02pm

re: #298 BabbaZee

Counted against me in certain quarters I`d consider a badge of valor Babba.

315 Catttt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:05:40pm

re: #307 ggt

Is that the new one --it wasn't bad --it also wasn't good.

I'll never appreciate Beowulf.

Now, Gilgamesh --somehow, I liked that one.

Anything with Gerard Butler in it is good, imho. :D I even liked Dracula 2000.

316 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:05:43pm

re: #306 Killgore Trout

I suspect that Western muslims will find a way to dissociate themselves from their radical cousins in the Middle East. I'll even go further and suggest that eventually this Westernized Enlightened version of Islam will be exported and replace Wahabism in the Magic Kingdom.


I want what you're smoking.

I hereby confiscate it in the name of The Ganjahadeen
LOL

317 USBeast  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:06:07pm

re: #306 Killgore Trout

I find that unlikely. I think that Europe will start reconsidering its immigration policies and monitoring mosques and islamist groups more carefully. Foreign Imams and Suadi funded mosques will be controlled and limited. Muslims are already pariahs in much of the western world because of terrorism. I suspect that Western muslims will find a way to dissociate themselves from their radical cousins in the Middle East. I'll even go further and suggest that eventually this Westernized Enlightened version of Islam will be exported and replace Wahabism in the Magic Kingdom.

From your post to God's ear.

318 rockdad  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:06:25pm

re: #224 Racer X

Excellent question. What needs to change?

1. Immigration laws. Immigrants must adhere to the laws of the country they emigrate to.

2. Immigrants must adopt the customs of the new country - not the other way around.

3. Terrorism. Any group that advocates or supports terrorist groups must be severely punished. They have to understand that will not be tolerated. Period.

1. Implies a spine in Euro governments I don't see happening.
2. Can't be enforced.
3. See #1.

While we think in decades they think in centuries. The militant wings of Islam only serve to hamper the quiet change working within our democratic systems that will bring our traditional ways to an end. Not a nice thought. I'm really interested in real solutions, I don't have any, but by playing devil's advocate maybe someone more intelligent can enlighten me. Lizards have a knowledge bank greater than the sum of many nations.

319 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:07:12pm

re: #314 JHW

{JHW}

320 gman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:07:50pm

re: #295 USBeast

Gman, I'm familiar with "GoV" but not "BJ".

As to "this type of thinking" where am I wrong?

BJ or that which may not be spoken rhymes with "mussels colonel"

as for your line of reasoning, I will refer you to JHW #274 treatise on 11th hour fatalists.

Thanks JHW

321 NavyBrat  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:07:55pm

Wow, genocide is not the answer... to anything.

Isn't there enough of that in the world already.

Wow.

322 Racer X  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:08:11pm

re: #296 BabbaZee

Sure.

All your Fascists Vlaams Belangs to us.
~ Funkle Sam

Excellent video!

323 realwest  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:08:37pm

re: #291 TalkinKamel
Hello Fritzie! Spot on Post and your line " they have to do it on their own, and, sorry, facism isn't the answer." is the best of all of them.
It's really very simple - the Europeans are democracies; at some point (and unlike GOV or BJ I don't think that point is here just yet) they are going to have to choose, to borrow an American Expression from back in my day, "Guns or Butter".
If they make the wrong choice, then quite honestly it is THEIR problem and I don't want it to become our problem. Hard decisions and difficult choices are what separate societies that survive and those that don't.

324 J.S.  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:08:46pm

OT

I thought I heard today that Putin has declared that Eastern Orthodoxy is the "official" religion of Russia...(did I hear that correctly?) have been also reading about neo-nazi rallies in Russia and the rise (once again) of the far-right nationalists.

325 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:09:05pm

My first fantasy lust is still Vin. But this Jason Statham guy is garnering my attention.

326 TalkinKamel  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:09:29pm

#312 rorschach

Helpless and scared to death is no way to go through life. I'm sorry they've been lied to, and manipulated, but they have a choice: they can try educating themselves, and pulling themselves out of the mess they're in, or they can continue to be meekly lied to, and manipulated. Look, these aren't helpless infants; these are grown men and women, with (presumably) reasonably well-functioning minds. Surely, at least some, if not most of them, can aspire to something better than media-dominated welfare state. And they'll have to, if they want to help their country.

And, if they let themselves be manipulated into following Nazi groups, they'll become a clear and present danger, not people to be pitied.

327 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:09:39pm

re: #316 BabbaZee

I want what you're smoking.


Any experience with seedbanks in Demark?
/Just wondering

328 J.S.  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:10:10pm

re: #302 mjazzguitar

But have the Germans banned Scientology? (It's not allowed as a religion, but I don't think it's been outright banned....Or?)

329 wolfie  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:10:15pm

re: #306 Killgore Trout

I find that unlikely. I think that Europe will start reconsidering its immigration policies and monitoring mosques and islamist groups more carefully. Foreign Imams and Suadi funded mosques will be controlled and limited. Muslims are already pariahs in much of the western world because of terrorism. I suspect that Western muslims will find a way to dissociate themselves from their radical cousins in the Middle East. I'll even go further and suggest that eventually this Westernized Enlightened version of Islam will be exported and replace Wahabism in the Magic Kingdom.

Holy carp! The Trout is praying!

330 mich-again  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:10:22pm

re: #312 rorschach

They've been manipulated by the media and lied to by the goverment for at least a century.

They're helpless and they're scared to death.

And that brings up a good point. European politicians have done all they could do to squelch any criticism of the politically correct multi-culti agenda for so long that they helped create the ugly backlash brewing there now. Better to have had 100 small tremors than one big earthquake.

331 TalkinKamel  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:10:24pm

#323 realwest

{realwest!}

332 realwest  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:11:01pm

re: #297 mich-again
Well my friend I'm afraid we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't see how one can attain love without first having respect - self-respect being the most important, but respect for yourself for who you are. Without that I don't think you can have true love at all.

333 joecitizen  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:11:50pm

re: #327 Killgore Trout

Any experience with seedbanks in Demark?
/Just wondering


just make sure to have them sent to someones address ya don't like and then try to grab em outta the mailbox before they get home..I'm just sayin'

334 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:11:51pm
335 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:12:13pm

re: #327 Killgore Trout

Kilgore you magnificent Bastid!

336 stevieray  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:12:18pm

re: #293 Sharmuta

Have elections been canceled in europe?

Sadly, yes. The EU does what it wants with little or no input from the feckless masses. Individual nations cannot even set their own immigration policies anymore.

337 mich-again  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:12:33pm

re: #332 realwest

Without that I don't think you can have true love at all.

I agree that you can't love another until you love yourself.

338 stevieray  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:13:14pm

re: #306 Killgore Trout

I find that unlikely. I think that Europe will start reconsidering its immigration policies and monitoring mosques and islamist groups more carefully. Foreign Imams and Suadi funded mosques will be controlled and limited. Muslims are already pariahs in much of the western world because of terrorism. I suspect that Western muslims will find a way to dissociate themselves from their radical cousins in the Middle East. I'll even go further and suggest that eventually this Westernized Enlightened version of Islam will be exported and replace Wahabism in the Magic Kingdom.

Unlikely.

339 mjazzguitar  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:13:16pm

re: #283 ggt

I've been getting that feeling (11th hour paranoia) every morning when I listen to the drive-time radio. It's been about 8 days now.

-Food Riots in Haiti
-Stores limiting the amount of rice people can buy because they are shipping it back to their country of origin.
-Brazil halting the export of rice
-Gas Prices and Diesel Prices
-The Mortgage Crisis
-Death tolls in Chicago (gun violence, of course)

It just seems so strange that we are hearing about this, now, in such repetition and urgency -- IN AN ELECTION YEAR


Gee, change would be good right about now.

340 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:14:09pm

re: #332 realwest

I agree. Until one can see themselves as G-d sees them, one cannot love. That means seeing yourself as a child of G-d and respecting each and every other human as one of his children as well.

BTW, that doesn't, by any means, suggest the kumbaya crap that the moonbats seem to think they are espousing.

341 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:14:23pm
342 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:14:39pm

re: #317 USBeast

I think it will happen. If you look at religions throughout history they do have a fairly limited lifespan; 1000-3000 years often much less. Religions have to be able to deliver a certain amount of prosperity to believers or they perish. The Amish are still limping along but will they provide a prosperous future for believers? How much longer? Islam has failed, it will evolve or wade away.
/Otnay entioningmay Arwinday.

343 realwest  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:14:39pm

re: #304 freetoken
Well Lord knows I hate to disagree with VDH, but you can't "save people" who aren't willing to at least try to save themselves. And if the Euro's choose, voluntarily Butter over guns, they'll get no butter and lose their societies; I just don't see why WE need to help them if they choose Butter.

344 mich-again  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:14:45pm

Why can't everyone just leave Baron Bodissey alone so he can eat his Waffle schnitzel?

345 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:15:12pm
346 Ojoe  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:15:39pm

re: #306 Killgore Trout

Nice vision there Killgore

Good Night All.

347 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:16:15pm

re: #329 wolfie

Not really. see #3342

348 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:16:16pm

So
Kilgore is a cockeyed optimist.
Who knew?
All this time I thought he was a club footed luthier

lol

349 ploome hineni[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:16:56pm
350 Ojoe  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:17:04pm

re: #346 Ojoe

minus an "l"

351 ploome hineni[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:17:09pm
352 esch  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:17:17pm

re: #189 Ojoe

Very interesting. Thanks for the reference.

353 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:17:27pm

re: #344 mich-again

Why can't everyone just leave Baron Bodissey alone so he can eat his Waffle schnitzel?

HahahahhahhhAHHHHAAAAAAAAAA
[gasps]
AHA

354 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:17:31pm

re: #339 mjazzguitar

Hope then Change.

/gotta get the mantra wording just right.

355 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:17:44pm

re: #351 ploome hineni

I like apes

356 Racer X  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:17:45pm

I gotsta go.

*leaves Cosmik Debris in wake*

357 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:18:06pm

re: #348 BabbaZee

Kilgore is a cockeyed optimist.


I'm a Kurt Vonnegut optimist. We're often confused with pessimists because we're pissed that things don't always go as they should.

358 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:18:11pm

re: #340 ggt


BTW, that doesn't, by any means, suggest the kumbaya crap that the moonbats seem to think they are espousing.

Soft-left Multiculturalism isn't about helping people. It's about narcissism.

It feels so good to help other people by telling somebody how to think. Kinda fills the emptiness inside, you know? The emptiness where G-d, family, and pride in real achievement should be.

Why do actual work, when you can get that same rush from rebuilding other people's minds through the force of law and re-education?

359 ploome hineni[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:18:23pm
360 shiplord kirel  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:18:25pm

re: #24 Dr. Shalit

Charles -

Read the GoV post this morning. The Jihadi violence in Europe has been pinpricks in comparison to 9/11. I think the question raised is what would happen in Europe if the people suddenly felt fear and turned on their Muslim Populations. Judging by past history, the result would NOT be pretty.

-S-

Yep.
An ancient culture does not change that much in 60 years. The Crusader's mailed fist still lurks beneath the velvet glove of multi-culturalism. So, as Ralph Peters has suggested, will we someday have to send our ships into St. Nazaire and Rotterdam to save Muslim populations from wholesale massacre? I don't think it's impossible. Events like this would be a terrible, dizzying shock in a world awash in multi-cultural propaganda. Those who at least acknowledge the possibility will be prepared psychologically and will have an advantage in coping.

361 Catttt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:18:33pm

OT

Gerard Butler video (sex, a bit of nudity, a lot of kissing)

/I had to.

362 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:18:33pm

re: #342 Killgore Trout

I think there is one that has lasted quite a while.

hmmmmmm Babba, care to elaborate?

363 ploome hineni[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:18:42pm
364 stevieray  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:18:49pm

re: #342 Killgore Trout

The problem is its death-throes will kill millions of non-Muslims, and it could take centuries to die... all the while poisoning any nation it is in. The culture of the West could be destroyed before the beast is dead.

365 mich-again  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:18:59pm

re: #348 BabbaZee

Kilgore is a cockeyed optimist.

Better than a cockeyed optometrist.

366 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:19:26pm

re: #359 ploome hineni

I like that in a man!

367 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:19:37pm

re: #349 ploome hineni

censored.

368 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:19:53pm
369 wolfie  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:19:58pm

re: #344 mich-again

BTW,
I believe I speak for many when I commend you for resurrecting your old avatar for the duration of BHO's candidacy.

370 ploome hineni[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:20:06pm
371 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:20:17pm

re: #365 mich-again

bading bang boom!

372 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:20:34pm

re: #370 ploome hineni

Now now ploome

373 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:21:17pm

re: #362 ggt

I think there is one that has lasted quite a while.

hmmmmmm Babba, care to elaborate?

I don't take Kilgores bait LOL

374 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:21:17pm

re: #361 Catttt

Nah, not doing it. You can keep him all to yourself.

375 freetoken  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:21:42pm

re: #343 realwest

Suspect that VDH would say that their problems will become our problems, whether we like it or not, whether we try to withdraw or not.

Our intricate (and sometimes intimate) relationship (with Europe) can't be undone... or at least not very easily.

If ultra-nationalists or neo-fascists really do start influencing policy and everyday life in Europe the US will have to do something.

376 ploome hineni[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:22:02pm
377 abu jimbola  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:22:23pm

Having read the GoV post and the comments here my thoughts are that this is not dissimilar to a distopic future that is postulated by Wretchard in his essays on the "3 conjectures"

Belmont Club; 3 Conjectures

For those not familiar they are:

1. Terrorism has lowered the nuclear threshold
2. Attaining WMD's will destroy Islam
3. The War on Terror is the Golden Hour..the Final Chance.

To sum up the argument: If the so called WoT fails then the response to an Islamic terrorist attack must be disproportionate and there will be escalation.

"Under these circumstances, any American government would eventually be compelled by public desperation to finish the exchange by entering -1 x 10^9 in the final right hand column: total retaliatory extermination."

Now, no one has said that Wretchard has advocated genocide, and reading the essay in GoV, the point is much the same...if lesser measures fail; then the end game will result in the extermination of Islam. I see this essay as a plea for sanity before the mob takes over.

Some of the "lesser measures" have been brought out in this discussion, like conversion. I actually see this as a viable solution and have often thought (or hoped) that the mainstream churches could be much more active in this area. The actions of the Catholic Church with the public conversions give at least some hope.

378 LEGION  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:22:24pm

Lots of deer in my area also, the spouse and I have both been involved in deer accidents costing much time, money and stress, luckily no physical damage. But folks have been killed by them. Lefty loonies don't want to cull the herd with hunting, saying we should wait for some birth control pill for them to be developed. Pie in the sky thinking. Problem needs to be solved NOW. Same with the muslims in Europe, causing many problems, violent protesting, car burnings, assassinations, riots, ect .ect. So how is the problem to be solved? Violence against humans is not the solution- but immigration control is a piece of the puzzle. Holland is trying to tell all new immigrants via a movie when entering the country- to absorb into the culture, learn the language, understand what is going on and be sensitive to it. Otherwise don't bother immigrating here! Other countries should follow suit if they haven't already! Like when we go to Saudia Arabia- we know not to wear crosses or Stars of David or carry around Bibles or the Talmud and offend them- we are courteous-but they are blatantly going out of their way to confront us! They are moving all around the world to purposely seed and out breed the natives and use their own laws against them on orders. Sticky problems for the powers that be to ponder and effectively solve. It doesn't help that the leftists hinder our professionals who are trying to solve the problem in Iraq & Afghanistan who are advocating for withdrawal while unfairly bringing our few errors under the microscope and totally ignoring the enemies horrific barbaric acts! Insanity!

379 wolfie  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:22:30pm

re: #357 Killgore Trout

I'm a Kurt Vonnegut optimist. We're often confused with pessimists because we're pissed that things don't always go as they should.

Wouldn't that make you a pissimist?

380 profitsbeard  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:22:34pm

re: #55 Honorary Yooper

Even if they are muslims, and even if they are jihadis at that, they are still human beings. No one, and I strongly repeat, no one should ever have to go through another Holocaust ever again.

Never Again means never again should we let this happen to anyone, anywhere.

Too late.

China during the Maoist "Cultural Revultion".
Cambodia's "Killing Fields".
Rwanda.
Darfur.

381 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:22:51pm

re: #358 Pawn of the Oppressor

I forgot, there is a clinical name for that:

Co-Dependent - I'll work on you so I don't have to work on myself.

382 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:23:08pm

re: #362 ggt

I think there is one that has lasted quite a while.

Dravidianism has the world record.

383 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:23:10pm

re: #368 song_and_dance_man

I know I am not
lol

384 mich-again  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:23:19pm

re: #369 wolfie

Yeah just when I thought it was time for something new that came around. Ha.

385 gman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:23:19pm

re: #336 stevieray

Sadly, yes. The EU does what it wants with little or no input from the feckless masses. Individual nations cannot even set their own immigration policies anymore.

I smell generalization. The EU is composed of representatives from the various member nations' governing parties. These governing parties are allowed to govern because they were elected.

I don't buy into the "I am helpless" gambit. It sounds like welfare state brainwashing to me.

386 shiplord kirel  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:23:30pm

Decadent cultural pretensions aside, when Europeans start talking about mass killing, the rest of the world ignores them at its peril.

Reference VDH's Carnage and Culture.

387 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:23:33pm

re: #379 wolfie

Ha!

388 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:23:44pm

re: #379 wolfie

Wouldn't that make you a pissimist?

AAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA

389 Catttt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:23:51pm

re: #374 ggt

Nah, not doing it. You can keep him all to yourself.

I wish. More like me and a million other women.

390 mjazzguitar  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:23:55pm

re: #328 J.S.

But have the Germans banned Scientology? (It's not allowed as a religion, but I don't think it's been outright banned....Or?)

You were right earlier. I think they are trying to ban it.

391 SusanL  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:24:10pm

Vin!

Thanks! Save as,...:)

392 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:24:15pm

re: #373 BabbaZee

You are soooo wise.

393 ploome hineni[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:24:57pm
394 esch  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:25:26pm

re: #263 J.S.

I consider Scientology a cult, not a religion. (I'm actually sympathetic to German authorities who wish to ban Scientology -- Scientology is not recognized as a "religion" in Germany, but it's not "banned" -- not yet, anyway. Last year there were some politicians who were attempting to get it outright banned...but I don't believe their efforts have been successful. For over ten years the Germany authorities have been monitoring Scientology offices...)

I'm curious what their 'official banning' would mean exactly. Scientology is already effectively banned, what with restrictions on government jobs, buying property, required affidavits, etc.

If the government banned it, what would the penalties be? Prison, 'reeducation', deportation?

395 Promethea  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:25:28pm

re: #149 Dr. Shalit

"free" -

I am trying my hardest to point out the ABSURDITY of the PA Position. Tough love works sometimes - and for sure we have low diplomatic expectations of the Muslim Arab - we expect them to be absurd. Glad my post got you thinking.

-S-

I'm with you. I'm tired of our governmental officials treating the PA as lesser beings who need to be coddled. Let's respect the PAs and treat them the way they deserve, as human beings who should be held accountable for their actions.

That makes me (1) more militant and (2) more peaceful.

If the so-called Palestine is supposed to be Judenrein, well then Israel can be Muslimrein. As a former LLL, I don't automatically advocate this, but as a current warrior-wannabe, I say...let's treat the Palis as people who should learn to understand the consequences of messing with tough people (not wimps who want to be loved).

396 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:25:52pm

re: #392 ggt

...and such a wiseass!

397 realwest  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:26:44pm

re: #340 ggt "That means seeing yourself as a child of G-d and respecting each and every other human as one of his children as well." Well, yes and.......no. If one gives respect and doesn't receive it in return, I believe one has to demand that respect before offering that love again.
I am talking God's love and our ability to love each other as children of God. Don't respect me, don't expect me to respect or love you.
Sorry - I may not be completely clear on this but don't know how else to express it; to get love and to give love requires mutual respect. Without that respect there truly cannot be love.

Kumbayah my Lord,
Kumbaya,
Kumbaya my..................OMG did I type that out loud?!

398 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:27:13pm
399 slokat  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:27:32pm

I'm not a historian, just a reader of history - so I could be wrong.

It seems that Islam has been stopped by at least three things each time it tried to conquer Europe.

1) Walls
2) Length of Supply Lines
3) Stubbornness of the Infidels

#2 is a constant, but work needs to be done on Legal Walls (if not actual walls) & someone needs to provoke some stubbornness!

/IMHO

400 mich-again  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:27:53pm

re: #357 Killgore Trout

I'm a Kurt Vonnegut optimist.

Nice granfalloon !

401 NY Nana  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:28:27pm

re: #299 MandyManners

Have fun snuggling!

If he sits down for a nano-second! His latest is kissing on the lips....when they left after the first Seder, he kissed me, but boy, did the Binky he still had in his mouth feel weird! My son in law was carrying him, and he was LOL so hard that he nearly dropped him! And the little guy was smirking, so help me! He will climb up on my lap if he wants me to read to him, as besides trucks of all kinds, and diggers, books are his very favorite thing. Daughter is wasted, as he had no Gan since last Wednesday, so that the staff could get their own Passover preparations finished. He goes back Tuesday. I don't remember my own 4 being so busy, so help me!

We have to be up quite early, as we have some errands to run first, so I may actually say g'nite for real around 1-1:30 AM...a novelty.

402 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:29:02pm
403 wolfie  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:29:34pm

re: #382 Killgore Trout

Dravidianism has the world record.

This is undoubtedly because it has always secured for its adherents a most enviable prosperity !

404 mich-again  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:29:45pm

re: #394 esch

I'm curious what their 'official banning' would mean exactly.

Its not about banning, but rather State Sponsorship. The Germans subsidize "official" religions.

405 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:30:34pm

re: #399 slokat

My stubbornness alone probably equals the gall of one small village.

There are plenty more where I came from.

406 billhedrick  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:31:04pm

not even reading 99% of the comments here. these are kids that can't get laid (those at GOV) how f'ing hard is it to advocate the American way? I give the hell up.

407 esch  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:31:24pm

re: #404 mich-again

Its not about banning, but rather State Sponsorship. The Germans subsidize "official" religions.

Reminds me of what Bush was trying to do with his Faith-Based Initiatives. I think it's just a bad idea in general.

408 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:31:42pm

re: #389 Catttt

Did you see Black Book (Zwartboek)? It was subtitled and an awesome! movie if you haven't had a chance to see it. Incredible acting and too realistic for me in many ways. Anyway the lead man in that movie was rather nice.

409 Age Of Freedom  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:31:57pm

I think people in the Lizard army need to look at the bigger picture when falling on an extreme article like that in GoV.

Sure, it's known that a lot of the the anti-Jihad movements in Europe are part of the ultra-nationalist groups -- which is crucial to disapprove -- BUT, there are many people who have never been affiliated with these parties or their hidden agendas. Their extreme fear has completely blinded them from seeing the bad in allying with shady parties to face Jihad. They have completely lost all hope in the face of Islamization after being constantly pummeled with blind multi-culturalism that invites uncontrolled waves of Muslims into Europe.

Focusing on those folks, it is needless to say, they strongly target a populace that has strong convictions of a supremacist and violent religion, which doesn't necessarily renders them on par with the fascists of the 30's (who are also riding on the bandwagon of anti-jihad today). There is a light years difference between the Muslim minority in Europe to the Jews, who are themselves victims of muslim persecution in Europe.

Additionally, we ought to keep in mind that the most pro-western political stances Muslims generally hold in the west are equivalent to that of Ward Churchill and Noam Chomsky, while fiercely support the Palestinians and vindicate for the arab/muslim paradises at the best case scenarios. It's safe to claim that western Muslims are virtually counter-effective against Jihad.

All that, and after numerous anti-western protests in Europe where muslims have publicly called for the holocaust and the destruction of Europe, while no effective measures were ever done to eradicate Jihad, the wrongs in this article can easily come from a frustrated and bitter normal individual, and not necessarily from fascists bent on supremacy.

Although I strongly disagree with the tone of the article that ok's the cracks to open burst into full-on virulent violence, I understand their frustration at the same time, as their governments are utterly weak in the face of Jihad.

Feel free to comment back.

410 rorschach  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:32:22pm
#399 Slokat

Vlad the Impaler stopped them with one of the cruelest spectacles in the history of mankind. He "out-crueled" the muslims, and by God, it worked.

So, do ends justify the means?

411 realwest  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:32:34pm

re: #375 freetoken"If ultra-nationalists or neo-fascists really do start influencing policy and everyday life in Europe" - oops, my bad, I thought you were referring to Muslims.

412 billhedrick  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:32:48pm
So, do ends justify the means?

no

413 thgrant  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:32:51pm

It was an interesting exercise, for those who think the muslim threat an existential one.

On the cultural front, muslims seem to be given the benefit of the doubt, but there is a lot of push back. Islam will have to get used to criticism. The essay gives us all pause to think of what may have to happen if the criticism becomes some sort of causus belli for the muslim world.

Considering the lack of religious freedom in the muslim world the essay's prescription of what might have to be done in order to not live under sharia does give one pause. The tolerant society cannot tolerate the intolerant and right now the intolerant are the muslims.

414 Tom Kratman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:33:05pm

re: #132 Dianna

Oh, nonsense!

There are islamic enclaves in Europe. But in no European state is the muslim population more than 20%.

The situation is not irretrievable. It certainly does not require desperate and vile solutions.

The unstated but operative word there, Dianne, is 'yet.'

I've got mixed feelings over both the essay in GoV and the reaction here. I think it's fair to say that el Ingles, based on the "If I were king" section, does want ethnic cleansing of some sort to come about. Whether he daydreams about Zyclon B crystals being poured into airtight chambers full of Moslems I woudn't say definitively, at this point. I was a little intellectually offended that he listed only three options, completely skipping the preferable first: assimilation and secularization. Even if he'd mentioned it just to dismiss it as impractical and unattainable, given current Euro political realities, I'd have given his essay a little more credence and perhaps not just assumed he preferred genocide. He didn't and so I must assume that's his preference. Short version: Maybe he does dream about Zyklon B...

All that said, he's not wrong about the likelihood of considerable Muslim:Euro ethnic violence with religious / crusading / jihadi overtones, and in the not too distant future. I think he overstates the Euro willingness to defend themselves or eliminate the Muslims, even in their last extremity, however. Where is the stuff in Europe of which Einsatzgruppen are made? I don't see them.

An argument is not invalidated merely because the conclusions are vile. Does anyone here doubt that Europe's in serious trouble? Beyond a very problematic and vanishingly unlikely degree of assimilation, how are they to deal with Muslims? How do we expect the Muslims, as their power grows, to deal with the Euros?

One thing the essay didn't address, and it is a fantastic (not in a good way) logical oversight: How the Hell is Europe going to deal with its inverted age pyramid? The Muslims aren't there because the Euros are such sweethearts. They're there to do jobs Euros can't or won't. They _can't_ get rid of their Muslims.

From the foregoing I would suggest to you two possibilities. 1) Either the Euros keep their Muslims but, in effect, de facto if not de jure, enslave them to keep the social democratic welfare state going, or 2) the Muslims end up in charge. The Muslims won't deliberately drive the Euro's out, but I'd bet on de facto enslavement to keep the Islamic social democratic welfare state going.

Not very nice prospects, are they?

415 MandyManners  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:33:06pm

re: #401 NY Nana

Have fun!

I'm heading to bed, too.

Sweet dreams, Lizards!

416 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:34:18pm

re: #397 realwest

I don't know. I can love a person as a child of G-d, but I don't have to like them or get involved in their lives. I think I'm talking in more abstract terms. Perhaps love/respect are two sides of the same coin.

Is that what you've been saying all along?

417 slokat  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:34:23pm

re: #405 BabbaZee

I hear you & I'm the same, but the left coast of Cali is a long way from Europe, and it's not certain how far my stubbornness radiates.

418 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:35:20pm

re: #403 wolfie

This is undoubtedly because it has always secured for its adherents a most enviable prosperity !


No it's because like Hinduism and Buddhism it's a very adaptable and flexible belief system. Religion is a service industry.

419 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:35:22pm
420 LeePro  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:35:30pm

re: #397 realwest

{ { { RW } } }

Just got here, so behind on the conversation.

421 Promethea  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:36:18pm

re: #163 Dianna

Very simple.

No separate way of life. No sharia - not within your "communities" and not outside it.

And, if they push it far enough, if they try to deprive their sisters and daughters of their rights as citizens and free people, we will intervene to ban their practices that oppress their women. It's coercive, but I think it's acceptable on the grounds of the rights of citizens.

And, finally, if there is terrorism, their mosques will be monitored. I won't like it, but there it will be, and I will accept it. Just as I have no problem with the monitoring of "christian identity" churches, which have proven to be hotbeds of illegal activities.

Well stated.

422 billhedrick  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:36:56pm

As I walk through
This wicked world
Searchin' for light in the darkness of insanity.

I ask myself
Is all hope lost?
Is there only pain and hatred, and misery?

And each time I feel like this inside,
There's one thing I wanna know:
What's so funny 'bout peace love & understanding? Ohhhh
What's so funny 'bout peace love & understanding?

And as I walked on
Through troubled times
My spirit gets so downhearted sometimes
So where are the strong
And who are the trusted?
And where is the harmony?
Sweet harmony.

'Cause each time I feel it slippin' away, just makes me wanna cry.
What's so funny 'bout peace love & understanding? Ohhhh
What's so funny 'bout peace love & understanding?

So where are the strong?
And who are the trusted?
And where is the harmony?
Sweet harmony.

'Cause each time I feel it slippin' away, just makes me wanna cry.
What's so funny 'bout peace love & understanding? Ohhhh
What's so funny 'bout peace love & understanding? Ohhhh
What's so funny 'bout peace love & understanding?

423 esch  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:37:03pm

re: #414 Tom Kratman


From the foregoing I would suggest to you two possibilities. 1) Either the Euros keep their Muslims but, in effect, de facto if not de jure, enslave them to keep the social democratic welfare state going, or 2) the Muslims end up in charge. The Muslims won't deliberately drive the Euro's out, but I'd bet on de facto enslavement to keep the Islamic social democratic welfare state going.

This post sums up my feelings very well.

I think some form of slavery is inevitable. Heck, they're already most of the way there. There is no way Euros are going to give up their lifestyle, no matter how obvious the end results are made to them.

424 DesertSage  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:37:12pm

Is it safe? There are no thread hijackers in here, are there?

425 slokat  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:37:13pm

re: #410 rorschach

Cruelty is only one of the baser forms of stubbornness...

426 Catttt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:37:35pm

re: #408 ggt

Did you see Black Book (Zwartboek)? It was subtitled and an awesome! movie if you haven't had a chance to see it. Incredible acting and too realistic for me in many ways. Anyway the lead man in that movie was rather nice.

No, but I will now - thanks. :)

427 realwest  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:37:38pm

re: #402 BabbaZee Ah, thanks BABBA! Gonna have to save it for tomorrow though - tis best played at high volume and Mom is sleeping in the next room and she's not a fan of Cream! Go figure! Don't know where I went wrong raising her.

428 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:37:52pm

re: #397 realwest

As I read it again, I think that isn't right. Love has no demands. It's not a tit for tat bargain. You can only love and hope it's returned or not. Either way, it's the act of loving from which one benefits. Receiving is nice, but I that from G-d in spades.

I'd like to receive basic human respect from others, but I have to earn that -- some people aren't capable.

429 mich-again  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:38:44pm