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Gates of Vienna Toys with Genocide

Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 7:28:18 pm PDT

At Gates of Vienna, an author referred to as “thoughtful” has a piece that lovingly describes the coming genocide of Muslims in Europe: Gates of Vienna: Surrender, Genocide ... or What?

He backs away at the last minute, after imagining it in great detail, and says he’s not advocating genocide. So what does he advocate?

A totalitarian police state that will institute policies of concentration camps and mass deportation, and criminalize being a Muslim in Europe.

Oh, yeah. That’s a lot better.

Here’s one excerpt from this lengthy exercise in genocide porn.

A functioning government might be able to organize and carry out mass deportations via airline, but would surely be forced to preemptively intern the target population, and the notion that such populations in Europe would allow themselves to be peacefully interned strains credulity to breaking point and beyond. If this is true now, how much truer would it be in five or ten years time? Even the merest suggestion of implementing such a plan would surely collapse an electoral discontinuity into a non-electoral discontinuity for reasons already discussed. It is on the basis of this reasoning that I argue that deportations and mass expulsions, though the most difficult types of violence to read in this context, will not play a key role in post-discontinuity violence apart from perhaps being used to repatriate the survivors once the conflict has been won.

Here’s another:

If violence does erupt in European countries between natives and Muslims, I consider it highly likely that people who had never done anything more violent than beat eggs will prove incapable of managing the psychological transition to controlled violence and start killing anything that looks remotely Muslim. Our unspoken conviction that we, in 21st-century Europe, have moved beyond such savagery will be shown to be an arrogance founded on a few decades of fragile peace and prosperity, taken for granted and allowed to slip through our fingers for no reason at all.

Baron Bodissey is now complaining that he’s receiving critical email for posting this disgusting screed. They all want to avoid genocide, he says.

Posting a blatant incitement to violence is an awfully strange way to demonstrate that.

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1119 comments

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1 EC Marm  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:30:15pm

Early prediction, three trolls, three bannings. VegasRick should be working up the numbers.

2 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:30:25pm

All I have to say is: Holy shit, they actually posted that!

GoV has not just jumped the shark, they've jumped the fraking moon.

3 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:31:19pm

Read the comments. You get a better feel for their readership that way.

4 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:34:42pm

I keep trying to read it, and I keep having to stop. My stomach just won't take it.

5 Sol Roth  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:34:57pm

Well, you could open registration for a while and allow us to troll hunt. You know they are banging on the door right now.

6 Ojoe  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:36:09pm

Genocide? That's nuts.

Japan was defeated losing maybe 3 or 4 percent of its population, & IIRC Germany in WW2 lost maybe 10%.

The Aztec religion is gone; plenty of survivors from that, and they're Christians too.

It may be bad in the future, but most of the change will be mental and spiritual.

7 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:36:17pm
surely be forced to preemptively intern the target population


Concentration camps, genocide, mass deportations. This is old school fascism in it's raw form. Wanna bet they're also Darwinists?

8 lawhawk  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:36:48pm

Jeez. Where does one even start with this? Europe is beset by troubles on all sides, that's for sure. They've got folks like this one end of the spectrum, and not far away are the jihadis who would like to impose their own brand of justice.

And meanwhile, most Europeans are deaf dumb and blind to the evils that lurk just below the surface in most places - but which oozes out in full view in places like London and Paris.

Apparently, the failure to confront evils means that the ultimate butchers' bill will be significantly increased with each passing day.

9 jaunte  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:36:58pm

Even when that author tries to talk neutrally about Islam as a political ideology, some ideas just seem to pop out unbidden:

"...allowing ‘borderline’ or ‘cultural’ Muslims the option of staying in the UK if they understood that Islam had no future there and would simply be bleached out of British life over the course of a generation or two."
10 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:37:11pm

re: #5 Sol Roth

They'll be here, just wait. They've been showing up on the Spencer thread all afternoon.

11 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:38:51pm
12 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:39:19pm

What drives me crazy is the way El Ingles simply ignores the best option: don't allow the ghettoization. Insist on integration. That means that there will be no separate schools, the mosques will be monitored, and islamic dress will be banned. Conscription - for at least social service - will have to be instituted, and schooling for girls right through what we call 12th grade will be compulsory.

I don't like how coercive that is, but it seems to me the only way to avoid all the various varieties of hell that El Ingles seems so eager to impose.

13 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:39:26pm

re: #10 Killgore Trout

They'll be here, just wait. They've been showing up on the Spencer thread all afternoon.

Oh, I'll bet. If any of the VBers are still left, they'll be around for this thread.

/Barbeques ready?

14 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:39:34pm
15 snowcrash  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:39:43pm

Holy crap, mass deportations and genocide. These folks are out of their minds and dangerous.

16 gman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:39:55pm

Some of the comments are completely bananas:

Here's one by someone named Englishman at GoV that goes totally unchallenged:

Most of the opposition from the billion plus muslims ,could be nuetralised by three or four nuclear weapons,but the fifty million subversives already within our borders would have to be dealt with individually as each component in each country is only a regiment in the muslim army.As they have no intension of living in peace,we must destroy them before they destroy us in whatever manner is necessary.

17 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:40:03pm

re: #7 Killgore Trout

Ah...why do I suspect you of pot stirring?

18 Ojoe  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:40:38pm

re: #12 Dianna

The girls are a good place to start; a big change could come from them.

19 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:40:42pm

re: #12 Dianna

Secretly, I think they want the hell on earth. It'll be easier for them to justify whatever it is they want to do then to be the "saviours" of Europe.

It's pretty sick if you ask me.

20 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:41:02pm
He backs away at the last minute, after imagining it in great detail, and says he’s not advocating genocide.

Standard CYA statement except that after that entire rant- it's a little hard to swallow.

21 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:41:50pm

I wonder about the legal implications of posting this. The US doesn't have hate speech laws (thankfully) but they really are advocating genocide and vigilantism. I think there might be implications for some of the Europeans posting in the comments, the feds might take notice of this. It's very dangerous stuff. I think the company hosting their site might have issues with this as well.

22 Sol Roth  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:42:07pm

re: #10 Killgore Trout

I got stuck with an insane, ancient troll on the Nazi thread so I missed it completely. These things sleep so long then finally pop on a dead thread. The young ones are comical, but the ideologues are just scary.

23 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:42:09pm
24 Dr. Shalit  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:42:11pm

Charles -

Read the GoV post this morning. The Jihadi violence in Europe has been pinpricks in comparison to 9/11. I think the question raised is what would happen in Europe if the people suddenly felt fear and turned on their Muslim Populations. Judging by past history, the result would NOT be pretty.

-S-

25 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:42:17pm

re: #16 gman

Paranoia, anyone?

Though I've encountered that sort of thinking here, now and again, to my utter dismay. Fortunately, they usually get banned pretty quickly.

26 snowcrash  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:42:28pm

I guess these are the second generation activities spoken of in the Spencer thread last night. Count me OUT.

27 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:42:52pm

re: #16 gman

It's really disgusting over there, and it makes me really glad that people like that are not welcome here.

28 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:42:59pm

re: #17 Dianna

That's because it's what I'm doing.

29 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:43:23pm

re: #22 Sol Roth

I got stuck with an insane, ancient troll on the Nazi thread so I missed it completely. These things sleep so long then finally pop on a dead thread. The young ones are comical, but the ideologues are just scary.

Problem is, some of them are sock puppets that a banned commentor left in place so he/she could come back.

30 EC Marm  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:43:26pm

re: #7 Killgore Trout

Concentration camps, genocide, mass deportations. This is old school fascism in it's raw form. Wanna bet they're also Darwinists?


Darwin? That evolution fellow who that wrote that book? What was the full, complete title of that book again?

31 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:43:36pm

In contrast, is this not what they are claiming is being taught in mosques?

32 paxnhymn  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:43:52pm

right or wrong, (WRONG!) it's human nature folks. exterminate and enemy. They hate us and want to destroy us (completely, I might add) so it's only logical for our side to have someone think the same....but not right!

33 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:43:54pm

re: #21 Killgore Trout

It's a blogger account- I think I'll flag it for google.

34 Catttt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:44:10pm

! I'm speechless - but not surprised, I'm sorry to say. (OK, almost speechless.)

35 Catttt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:44:36pm

re: #21 Killgore Trout

I wonder about the legal implications of posting this. The US doesn't have hate speech laws (thankfully) but they really are advocating genocide and vigilantism. I think there might be implications for some of the Europeans posting in the comments, the feds might take notice of this. It's very dangerous stuff. I think the company hosting their site might have issues with this as well.

I was thinking the same thing.

36 itellu3times  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:44:38pm

Sigh.

Sorry, that's about all I trust myself to say on this.

37 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:44:44pm

re: #33 Sharmuta

It's a blogger account- I think I'll flag it for google.

Oh, they'll love you for that one. LOL!

38 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:44:57pm

re: #21 Killgore Trout

There is not one - so far as I've gotten, anyway - specific threat to a named or identifiable individual.

Worse, your thinking is the thin edge of the wedge for Human Rights Commissions, just as in Canada. I think - as distasteful as this is - that I'll stop short of asking for government intervention.

39 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:45:36pm

re: #30 EC Marm

What was the full, complete title of that book again?


uhhhh....Genocidal Ethnic Cleansing Made Easy for the Modern Ape?

40 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:46:02pm

re: #33 Sharmuta

It's a blogger account- I think I'll flag it for google.

And I just did likewise. A few of the commentors over there hate me anyway.

41 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:46:10pm

re: #37 Honorary Yooper

google put the flags in for objectionable content. If this essay doesn't qualify- nothing does.

42 USBeast  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:46:52pm

I stopped by there before I came here. No one was advocating genocide. They were fearfully predicting it if some sort of sane immigration program was not implemented.

It's easy to criticize others when your butt is not in their sling.

43 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:47:12pm

re: #41 Sharmuta

google put the flags in for objectionable content. If this essay doesn't qualify- nothing does.

Exactly. They're basically advocating genocide without advocating genocide blatently.

44 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:47:15pm

re: #26 snowcrash

Me, too.

I will not tolerate murder, and particularly, I will not be silent about the psychological stage-setting for massacre.

45 SusanL  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:47:18pm

"Intern the target population" Do they honestly think that we would stand by and let them perpertrate another Holocaust, with Muslims as the victims this time?

I'm no fan of Islam, but this crap is outrageous and cannot be allowed to stand.

46 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:47:43pm

re: #42 USBeast

I stopped by there before I came here. No one was advocating genocide. They were fearfully predicting it if some sort of sane immigration program was not implemented.

It's easy to criticize others when your butt is not in their sling.

Mass deportations is not a sane immigration policy.

47 Jimmy The Clam  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:48:10pm

re: #21 Killgore Trout

I wonder about the legal implications of posting this. The US doesn't have hate speech laws (thankfully) but they really are advocating genocide and vigilantism. I think there might be implications for some of the Europeans posting in the comments, the feds might take notice of this. It's very dangerous stuff. I think the company hosting their site might have issues with this as well.

Free speech for me but not for thee?

If you are going to advocate the shitting down of blogs, I'd at least hope you would start with the Jihadi blogs first.

48 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:48:24pm

re: #31 formercorpsman

In contrast, is this not what they are claiming is being taught in mosques?

I don't know if I described this the way I wanted to.

My point being, is it not a contradiction of their position?

49 Catttt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:48:39pm

re: #32 paxnhymn

There is a difference between protecting yourself and wanting to obliterate entire groups of people and countries. Fascist thinking tends to add "enemies" to the list of folks to obliterate, since their motto is "everyone is the enemy save me and thee, and sometimes I wonder about thee."

50 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:48:40pm

re: #42 USBeast

It's a very elaborate fantasy of what they would like to see happen.

51 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:48:48pm

re: #28 Killgore Trout

Pick a side and stick to it, damnit. I'm tired, and I'm worried. When you're not flat-out determined to cause trouble, you're one of the better thinkers I know of. So restrain yourself and attempt seriousness.

Hard as it may be.

Thank you.

52 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:49:04pm
53 paxnhymn  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:49:09pm

The problem with this kinda crap going public is it perpetuates that isslumic, "we are perpetual victims and have the right to defend ourselves" mentality...

54 USBeast  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:49:16pm

re: #46 Sharmuta

Mass deportations is not a sane immigration policy.

Never said it was. Your recommendation...?

55 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:49:26pm

re: #45 SusanL

"Intern the target population" Do they honestly think that we would stand by and let them perpertrate another Holocaust, with Muslims as the victims this time?

I'm no fan of Islam, but this crap is outrageous and cannot be allowed to stand.

Even if they are muslims, and even if they are jihadis at that, they are still human beings. No one, and I strongly repeat, no one should ever have to go through another Holocaust ever again.

Never Again means never again should we let this happen to anyone, anywhere.

56 joecitizen  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:50:04pm

re: #42 USBeast

I stopped by there before I came here. No one was advocating genocide. They were fearfully predicting it if some sort of sane immigration program was not implemented.

It's easy to criticize others when your butt is not in their sling.

you a crazy man..

57 paxnhymn  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:50:38pm

re: #49 Catttt

There is a difference between protecting yourself and wanting to obliterate entire groups of people and countries. Fascist thinking tends to add "enemies" to the list of folks to obliterate, since their motto is "everyone is the enemy save me and thee, and sometimes I wonder about thee."


ohh, no doubt, I agree. i'm saying we shouldn't be surprised by it tough. Historically predictable behaviour.

58 USBeast  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:50:43pm

re: #50 Killgore Trout

It's a very elaborate fantasy of what they would like to see happen.

And what would you like to see happen?

59 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:51:19pm

re: #31 formercorpsman

Not quite. They claim - correctly - that the wild-eyed islamists will not rest until everyone in the West is a slave, a muslim, or dead (to quote It's in the Koran).

Neither prospect appeals to me, nor to you, I don't think?

60 wolfie  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:51:30pm

These people are saying that the only choice we have is between two barbarisms, theirs and the Islamists'. Well, for most of us in the West, that is no choice at all. And this is supposed to make us wake up to the dangers around us?! On the contrary. It is an encouragement to passivity and despair. So much for being heroes in the fight against jihad!

61 paxnhymn  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:51:44pm

Cattt, sorry. my typing skills have been even worse than usual lately.

62 USBeast  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:51:56pm

re: #56 joecitizen

you a crazy man..

Never denied it. Now, what is your definition of sanity?

63 Charles  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:52:20pm

The people at Gates of Vienna are doing their level best to destroy the credibility of the anti-jihad movement.

re: #58 USBeast

And what would you like to see happen?

What would you like to see happen?

And if you don't think there was anyone advocating genocide, you didn't read the comments over there.

64 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:52:21pm

Is it just me, or in that second excerpt, do the first and second sentences seem to contradict each other?

65 Catttt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:53:08pm

re: #47 Jimmy The Clam

Thanks - we know about freedom of speech in the USA, but the point is that there are European laws against hate speech, such as posts that advocate genocide, etc. Not everyone is American.

66 joecitizen  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:53:41pm

re: #62 USBeast

Never denied it. Now, what is your definition of sanity?


seeing clearly what is right in front of my eyes,no matter how it is masked..

67 Charles  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:53:49pm

re: #64 Occasional Reader

Is it just me, or in that second excerpt, do the first and second sentences seem to contradict each other?

It's not just you. The author is trying to keep up appearances, but his real opinions leak through.

68 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:53:50pm

re: #54 USBeast

Never said it was. Your recommendation...?

Classic troll tactic- trying to flip it around. Well- this isn't about me. This is about a genocidal, police state essay at gov (and your excuses for it).

69 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:54:19pm

re: #47 Jimmy The Clam

If you are going to advocate the shitting down of blogs, I'd at least hope you would start with the Jihadi blogs first.


" the shitting down of blogs" - heh
Go ahead and reverse the terms "European" and "Muslim" in that essay. If this was a Jihadi blog fantasizing about genocide against infidels in Europe would you still feel the same? This is not really a free speech issue they are advocating genocide in Europe. Should American hosting companies have hosted Hitler's Blog about killing the Jews? There is nothing different about this essay. Concentration camps, confiscation of property and genocide. Hitler could have written this himself.

70 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:54:21pm

re: #54 USBeast

Refer to my #12.

Oh, and stop muslim immigration for a while. Certainly, they don't get to import child-brides any more!

71 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:54:27pm

re: #50 Killgore Trout

Killgore, I want to ask your opinion of something.

First, I agree with you as it relates to their history, white supremacist, this post they have at their site, etc.

Do you think there are folks out there who might be so distraught at certain things they are watching before them, and seeing how the world shifts, that they might have convinced themselves a major conflagration is inevitable?

Many times people post opinions that it is 1939 all over again, etc.

72 pat  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:55:01pm

So that's what Islamophobia looks like!

73 paxnhymn  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:56:11pm

One thing is certain. The West is unwillingly headed for some unfinished business with isslum, and I may not be alive, but it's gonna be ugly....

74 JHW  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:56:33pm

Lot of similarity in this sort of talk to the Wannsee Conference IMO, pseudo-intellectual language discussing horrific actions as if they were perfectly logical and justified.

75 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:56:36pm
A totalitarian police state that will institute policies of concentration camps and mass deportation, and criminalize being a Muslim in Europe.

That seems to be exactly what they (the GoVers, Vlaams Belang, et.al.) want. With them in charge of course. How does this make them any different than the socialists and the Islamists they proclaim to oppose?

You cannot simply choose between totalitarianisms. The only choice out there is freedom, IMHO. And that's where I stand. I want to protect my freedoms, our freedoms from these fascists, from the socialists, and from the Islamists. For if we do not protect these freedoms as we have enshrined in the US Constitution, then we have certainly lost, and they will have won.

76 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:56:56pm

re: #51 Dianna

Pick a side and stick to it, damnit.


I'm on the same side I've always been. Ben Stein brought this on himself. Darwinist is going to be the punchline in many Nazi jokes from now on. Better get used to it.

While we're on the topic: Is there a Darwinist connection here? They're talking about the same things; concentration camps and genocide. Where's the Darwin?

77 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:56:56pm

re: #71 formercorpsman

The crypto-fascists of europe fan the flames of fear because it helps them rise to power. Things aren't just bad- they're terrible, and if you elect us we'll make it stop. Things are bad, but not so bad as to excuse turning to fascist solutions.

78 SusanL  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:57:15pm

re: #29 Honorary Yooper

Can't you just visualize someone feverishly creating account after account so they can come back after they have been banned? They know what they intend to post isn't welcome here. And they know that Sticky Beaumont is going to whack them.

How sad is that?

The funny part, they never get more than a half dozen posts in before someone recognized them, outs them and they are made to go away (yet again).

S

79 joecitizen  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:57:35pm

re: #73 paxnhymn

One thing is certain. The West is unwillingly headed for some unfinished business with isslum, and I may not be alive, but it's gonna be ugly....


that may well be but let's not put the tat before the tit..

80 snowcrash  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:57:45pm

re: #44 Dianna
It is really scary to see a cause hijacked and corrupted with violence.
I am glad Charles and the big Lizards took the heat on the initial split
from the European movement last summer. We are watching the rise of fascism. I know what I am reading.

81 Catttt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:58:14pm

re: #76 Killgore Trout

I'm on the same side I've always been. Ben Stein brought this on himself. Darwinist is going to be the punchline in many Nazi jokes from now on. Better get used to it.

While we're on the topic: Is there a Darwinist connection here? They're talking about the same things; concentration camps and genocide. Where's the Darwin?

Shut up. I am so SICK of you harping on fricking Charles fricking Darwin.

82 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:58:31pm

re: #76 Killgore Trout

Nope.

Darwin would stare.

Hell, I'm staring.

83 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:58:54pm

re: #58 USBeast

And what would you like to see happen?


I'd like to see nazi assholes go fuck themselves.
/It's late enough to use some salty lingo, right?

84 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:00:05pm

re: #59 Dianna

At times, I know I don't post what I am thinking clearly in the words I type.

I'll try again.

To me, how can you be leading the charge, and claiming islamists are using these types of tactics (influence peddling, suggestion, rhetorical situations, etc) but not see the log in your own eye?

I agree with you, and I am convinced there is a real threat.

I agree with the general sentiment here, it must be tackled head on.

It is un-American to counter it with things like genocide, etc.

We are supposed to be the shining city on the hill. We fight wars, we don't commit atrocities like our enemies.

85 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:00:19pm

re: #71 formercorpsman


Do you think there are folks out there who might be so distraught at certain things they are watching before them, and seeing how the world shifts, that they might have convinced themselves a major conflagration is inevitable?


Yes, they'll whip themselves into a frenzy and go on a shooting spree in a mosque or an asian market. These delusions are very dangerous.

86 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:00:23pm

re: #76 Killgore Trout

Is there a Darwinist connection here? They're talking about the same things; concentration camps and genocide. Where's the Darwin?

This schtick is getting old fast, Killgore.

87 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:00:54pm

re: #82 Dianna

Exactly.

88 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:01:05pm

re: #80 snowcrash

Please buck up. It is not 1939. It's not even 1923.

There are solutions, and they are not necessarily violent, or even as coercive as those I advocated in my comment #12.

Despair is the ultimate sin, I think, no matter one's theology.

89 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:01:22pm

re: #81 Catttt

Get used to it.

90 CapeCoddah  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:01:40pm

Good Lord! What a horrifying piece, they ARE advocating genocide. Holy Crap! I thought someone MUST be reading it wrong. The only one who was wrong was me! My chin hurts, as it just hit the edge of the desk, Hard.

91 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:01:46pm
92 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:01:53pm

re: #86 Occasional Reader

This schtick is getting old fast, Killgore.


I find it very amusing.

93 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:01:58pm

re: #84 formercorpsman

You are right.

94 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:01:59pm

re: #86 Occasional Reader

This schtick is getting old fast, Killgore.

I hate to say it, Killgore, but I think I agree with O.R. here. Ben Stein did it to himself, but after last week, it's best to bury it right now.

95 theparson  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:02:37pm

We must not become what we so detest.

96 paxnhymn  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:02:53pm

re: #79 joecitizen

that may well be but let's not put the tat before the tit..


I guess it's just morbid curiosity...but I wonder at what point we compromise our culture just to survive?

97 CapeCoddah  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:03:25pm

re: #95 theparson
That is EXACTLY the right answer.

98 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:03:42pm

re: #92 Killgore Trout

The rest of us - who have known you for some time, and actually like you most of the time - do not.

99 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:03:57pm

re: #77 Sharmuta

Sharmuta, I understand that, but that really was not my question.

I guess my point is, do you think there are some people who do not subscribe to what they are writing, but feel things are heading in this direction?

100 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:03:57pm

re: #94 Honorary Yooper

Fat chance. What leads to genocide is irrational hatred, not scientific theories. I will mock those who believe otherwise relentlessly.

101 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:04:17pm

re: #96 paxnhymn

I guess it's just morbid curiosity...but I wonder at what point we compromise our culture just to survive?

We are nowhere, remotely, near that point.

We are not faced with Islamist military superiority, such that we have to ally with anyone to survive.

102 Ojoe  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:04:22pm

re: #88 Dianna

Pride beats despair, which is a self-indulgent form of pride anyway.

103 Catttt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:04:25pm

re: #89 Killgore Trout

Get used to it.

No, I don't think so. Keep it up and we'll all start gazing and skipping over you. That would be fatal to you, you big egomaniac.

104 snowcrash  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:04:33pm

re: #88 Dianna
Dianna, last night I thought that blog was a European forum. I am amazed.

105 NY Nana  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:04:35pm

re: #10 Killgore Trout

/Think Atlas will be back?

106 Jimmy The Clam  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:04:43pm

re: #65 Catttt

Thanks - we know about freedom of speech in the USA, but the point is that there are European laws against hate speech, such as posts that advocate genocide, etc. Not everyone is American.

An un-just law is an un-just law, no matter who's ox is getting gored.

From what I read of the piece it seems to ask the greater question of what do you do when the situation is allowed to reach the critical mass that it seems to have reached in Europe.
What do you DO?

As unsettling as that article is, that seems to be Europe's eventual fate barring anything short of wholesale deportations.

107 USBeast  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:05:05pm

re: #63 Charles

The people at Gates of Vienna are doing their level best to destroy the credibility of the anti-jihad movement.

What would you like to see happen?

And if you don't think there was anyone advocating genocide, you didn't read the comments over there.

I would like to see everyone in the world come together in peace and harmony. Do I expect it? No.

As for the comments at GOV advocating genocide, you are correct; I did not hang around to read them and I do not agree with anyone who advocates such.

I will not, however, deny that the West's refusal to defend itself will not end in bloodshed. I do not like the idea, but I would be stupid to deny the possibility.

108 dual_boot_brain  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:05:07pm

Why is it when the going gets tough the Euros' go genocide? What is this bizarre, Wagner-ian, epic-slaughter mindset that they have? Is there something in the water that drives them to want to kill anyone who doesn't look like them?

109 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:05:13pm

re: #96 paxnhymn

I guess it's just morbid curiosity...but I wonder at what point we compromise our culture just to survive?

Compromising our culture is a slippery slope. I'm not interested in fascism of any stripe, be it islamo, neo, crypto- what ever. If we have to become like the jihadis to defeat them- we have already lost. We compromise never.

110 mjazzguitar  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:05:20pm

re: #30 EC Marm

Darwin? That evolution fellow who that wrote that book? What was the full, complete title of that book again?

Mein Kampf?

111 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:05:22pm

re: #96 paxnhymn

I don't propose to.

In fact, I won't. I'll be polite about it as long as I can, but I will not compromise, surrender or submit.

112 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:05:28pm

re: #92 Killgore Trout

I find it very amusing.

Killgore, speaking as a fellow atheist, we atheists often as a tendency toward being... what's the technical term... assholes, that's it. It's something to keep an eye on. I'm serious.

113 Sol Roth  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:05:36pm
... consider the brilliant innovation of Gordon Brown’s government in the UK, in response to the terrorist attacks that occurred shortly after he entered office: Muslim terrorist plots directed at non-Muslims would now be referred to as ‘anti-Islamic activity.’ What to make of the people who dreamed up this ‘policy’?

What to make of them? Petfood? ... Lampshades? ... A host of even less savory fates spring to mind, including many that involve barbed wire, lit cigarettes and specially shaped electrodes connected to car batteries.
...

targeted executions

I still maintain that an immediate campaign of targeted assassinations aimed at Islam’s clerical, financial and scholastic aristocracy might have some sort of chance at reversing the tide of Islamization. Such a program is one of the only viable or cost-effective bulwarks standing between shari’a ruled Europe or a Muslim holocaust.

---GoV poster, "Zenster"

Yep. Pretty sure that would get you banned here.

114 gman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:05:49pm

re: #42 USBeast

I stopped by there before I came here. No one was advocating genocide. They were fearfully predicting it if some sort of sane immigration program was not implemented.

It's easy to criticize others when your butt is not in their sling.

Wtf?

Were you born after 9/11?

115 Dr. Shalit  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:06:19pm

Charles & Everyone -

Just a question, PA Pres. Abbas (a/k/a 'Abu Mazen says') is coming to DC.
As usual the demand that "settlements" be stopped/dismantled. In effect the PA must be "Jew-Free." And, as always, we listen to this and SAY NOTHING. It is a Bigotry of LOW EXPECTATIONS. We expect nothing more of the Muslim Arab - tolerance of a minority population - all y'all gotta be kidding. OK, no problem, from here on out, I agree to the stoppage and dismantlement of all Israeli "settlements" in the PA - AT WHICH TIME - ALL ISRAELI MUSLIMS WILL LOSE THEIR CITIZENSHIP AND BE RELOCATED INTO THE PA. "PEACEFUL ETHNIC CLEANSING WORKS BOTH WAYS."

-S-

116 Catttt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:06:23pm

re: #106 Jimmy The Clam

You missed my point. The LAWS in Europe are different. You can't holler that freedom of speech, based on US law, is being illegally hindered in Europe. It just doesn't work that way.

117 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:06:29pm

re: #99 formercorpsman

Maybe. But I have a problem with both despair and the joyously nihilistic embrace of gotterdamerrung.

118 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:06:41pm

re: #76 Killgore Trout

I would just say Killgore, many, many different groups are guilty.

As much as my Church has been responsible for their wrongs in history, so have the Soviets, Chinese Communists, etc.

It crosses all lines.

119 J.S.  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:06:56pm

I have not gone to the GoV site, and don't intend to read any more of it -- other than the excerpt provided above. I think because the author is speaking/writing in the future tense, it would not be prohibited speech (not even in Canada)...Another problem, of course, is that this toying with reprehensible ideas (concentration camps? deportations, etc.) feeds the Islamists -- it gives them ammunition...so then they can claim that they're being victimized, etc.

120 paxnhymn  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:07:24pm

re: #101 Occasional Reader

We are nowhere, remotely, near that point.

We are not faced with Islamist military superiority, such that we have to ally with anyone to survive.


point well taken. But they are recruiting useful idiots (either directly or indirectly) at a staggering rate.

121 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:07:43pm
122 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:08:02pm

re: #113 Sol Roth

Targeted executions!?! That settles it for me completely now. They are Nazis.

123 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:08:44pm

re: #102 Ojoe

Ah, hubris!

Proper pride is quite other than hubris, the over-weening conviction of one's own central place in the universe.

Proper pride, in oneself and one's culture is otherwise known as the realization that I am not - and never have been - the Queen of Numenor.

124 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:09:17pm

re: #85 Killgore Trout

Again, I am being serious, that is not the question I asked.

I am trying to separate a certain group of people who may have first hand legitimate fear because of direct experience versus the blog in question we are talking about here.

125 wolfie  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:09:22pm

re: #88 Dianna

Please buck up. It is not 1939. It's not even 1923.

There are solutions, and they are not necessarily violent, or even as coercive as those I advocated in my comment #12.

Despair is the ultimate sin, I think, no matter one's theology.

Indeed. That's what these people are selling: despair.
I'm not buying.

126 Ojoe  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:09:40pm

re: #101 Occasional Reader

What we need to do is regain a rock solid confidence in ourselves and our western values (let us admit they are mostly Judeo-Christian); when we regain this, the islamics will act puny and the problem will be over in a few generations as their children change their allegiance to the stronger group.

IMHO of course.

127 EE  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:09:42pm

Gates of Vienna is proposing three courses of action against all Muslims in Europe: (1) ethnic cleansing by terrorism (that's what they mean by "encouraging" Muslims to leave); (2) massive expulsion of all Muslims; and (3) genocide. These are the new Nazis; they call themselves Gates of Vienna but they are the gates of Auschwitz. If terroristic ethnic cleansing doesn't give the result of eliminating all Muslims from Europe, and if a massive expulsion doesn't eliminate all Muslims from Europe, then they advocate moving to the Final Solution: genocide.

These genocidal Nazi bastards do not deserve empowerment; they deserve imprisonment.

128 theblakester  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:09:48pm

While I take to the notion that if everyone were to be all the same color, race, creed, or god forbid the same religion, hate will still exist and the killings will still take place. So, what do the Islamics think will happen? With their constant and persistent push for Sharia law and a separate way of life, what should the push back be and look like?

129 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:09:51pm

re: #120 paxnhymn

point well taken. But they are recruiting useful idiots (either directly or indirectly) at a staggering rate.

Yep. And one of the quickest ways to lose that CULTURAL war is to chatter about mass deportations and concentration camps.

130 theparson  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:10:52pm

I am really struggling to understand how Darwin got inserted in this discussion. I'm not a blog cop but it would seem to me that, given the seriousness of this particular subject and effort to remain on topic would make sense. However, its not my back yard.
Good night, all.

131 paxnhymn  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:10:58pm

re: #111 Dianna

I don't propose to.

In fact, I won't. I'll be polite about it as long as I can, but I will not compromise, surrender or submit.


I'm just musing philisophically of course...wondering about my future granchildren's world.

132 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:11:19pm

re: #106 Jimmy The Clam

Oh, nonsense!

There are islamic enclaves in Europe. But in no European state is the muslim population more than 20%.

The situation is not irretrievable. It certainly does not require desperate and vile solutions.

133 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:11:34pm

Just watching The Deer Hunter, the point where DeNiro shoots the deer.

I really, really, could never shoot a deer. It just ain't in me.

134 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:11:35pm

re: #99 formercorpsman

I guess my point is, do you think there are some people who do not subscribe to what they are writing, but feel things are heading in this direction?

I think that if they don't believe in what they're writing, they wouldn't be writing it. They are giving into fear or perhaps they are looking for justifications to their line of "reasoning".

135 Charles  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:12:06pm

re: #130 theparson

I am really struggling to understand how Darwin got inserted in this discussion. I'm not a blog cop but it would seem to me that, given the seriousness of this particular subject and effort to remain on topic would make sense. However, its not my back yard.
Good night, all.

I agree. Let's have that argument another time, please.

136 MandyManners  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:12:10pm

re: #131 paxnhymn

I'm just musing philisophically of course...wondering about my future granchildren's world.

I worry about The Kid's world!

137 freetoken  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:12:22pm

re: #115 Dr. Shalit

AT WHICH TIME - ALL ISRAELI MUSLIMS WILL LOSE THEIR CITIZENSHIP AND BE RELOCATED INTO THE PA. "PEACEFUL ETHNIC CLEANSING WORKS BOTH WAYS."

-S-

Is this your recommendation, or somebody else's?

138 Sol Roth  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:12:34pm

re: #107 USBeast

I would like to see everyone in the world come together in peace and harmony. Do I expect it? No.

As for the comments at GOV advocating genocide, you are correct; I did not hang around to read them and I do not agree with anyone who advocates such.

I will not, however, deny that the West's refusal to defend itself will not end in bloodshed. I do not like the idea, but I would be stupid to deny the possibility.

I take it you are an American by your nic. You must know that we have had 1.6 million service personnel defending "The West" in two fronts against Islamic nazis, going on seven years now. That includes military from Britain, Denmark and Australia.

That is the way it will be won; prosecuted by professionals, not by thugs in a wet dream.

139 JHW  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:13:08pm

re: #113 Sol Roth

That post in particular is really disgusting. Even if it was sarcasm, hard to tell with some of them, it`s so over the line that it would absolutely kill any desire I would ever have to converse with such an individual.

140 paxnhymn  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:13:48pm

gnite all....

141 Jimmy The Clam  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:13:48pm

re: #122 Honorary Yooper

Targeted executions!?! That settles it for me completely now. They are Nazis.

Not everyone that advocates or practices "targeted executions" is a Nazi.

I suggest you redefine your definitions... just a tad.

142 Sol Roth  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:14:21pm

re: #122 Honorary Yooper

No man, lampshades out of their own government officials.

143 Catttt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:14:32pm

re: #138 Sol Roth

Well put.

144 USBeast  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:15:09pm

re: #114 gman

Wtf?

Were you born after 9/11?

No, I was born a long time ago. My point was that we in America are not facing the same threat that Europe is. We still have (as long as we defend it) the Constitution. Europe is throwing away every vestige of freedom for an illusion of peace. God help them.

145 J.S.  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:15:43pm

re: #116 Catttt

On the continent (not the UK), there are specific laws (especially in Germany) which ban anything which would be expressing admiration for Hitler, etc. (no uniforms, no paraphenalia, no dressing up, no salutes, no swastika flags, none of this can be displayed in public, etc.) -- although, obviously, this isn't always enforced...and (apparently) there's quite a bit of "underground" activities...(particularly from the former East Germans).

146 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:16:05pm

I fully expect Baron Bodissey to make a retalitory post at GoV tomorrow. Either he or Dymphna. If it's her, I fully expect it to be very mean, as her other ones were before.

And to think we used to hold these folks in higher esteem. Now we can see them for the totalitarians or useful idiots they are.

147 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:16:35pm

re: #117 Dianna

I understand.

Perhaps it is the older couple who is stuck in the badlands of Paris, there home value is shot, they want to move but can't, their car was burned, and are virtual prisoners in their own country.

I think Charles has it down pat. Things like this thread topic reduce the legitimacy of western civilization, and those who wish to stand up for, when faced with the onslaught of our own rules being used against us.

It can't come down to pining for the steel cage match.

I think it is in holding our politician's feet to the fire. We are a nation of laws.

They need to uphold the law. The Constitution, the Bill of Rights. This is where I think the encroachment is defeated.

148 mjazzguitar  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:16:46pm

re: #115 Dr. Shalit

Charles & Everyone -

Just a question, PA Pres. Abbas (a/k/a 'Abu Mazen says') is coming to DC.
As usual the demand that "settlements" be stopped/dismantled. In effect the PA must be "Jew-Free." And, as always, we listen to this and SAY NOTHING. It is a Bigotry of LOW EXPECTATIONS. We expect nothing more of the Muslim Arab - tolerance of a minority population - all y'all gotta be kidding. OK, no problem, from here on out, I agree to the stoppage and dismantlement of all Israeli "settlements" in the PA - AT WHICH TIME - ALL ISRAELI MUSLIMS WILL LOSE THEIR CITIZENSHIP AND BE RELOCATED INTO THE PA. "PEACEFUL ETHNIC CLEANSING WORKS BOTH WAYS."

-S-


Not long ago an Israeli went into the West Bank to get some work done on his vehicle. It made news that he was escorted out and not kidnapped or killed. Yet israel gets the "apartheid" tag. Before the PLO came along Jews mingled freely with the arabs there.

149 Dr. Shalit  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:17:08pm

re: #137 freetoken

"free" -

I am trying my hardest to point out the ABSURDITY of the PA Position. Tough love works sometimes - and for sure we have low diplomatic expectations of the Muslim Arab - we expect them to be absurd. Glad my post got you thinking.

-S-

150 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:17:17pm

re: #127 EE

They have not - please de'immortales - gone beyond words. Words, however distasteful, are not crimes until they suggest immanent violence against identifiable persons.

I don't like them. I repudiate them, and their dark fantasies. I oppose them.

But they cannot be jailed for speaking.

151 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:17:27pm

re: #105 NY Nana

I have wondered about that. She's been rather quiet about racist European political parties recently. Makes me wonder if she see's the writing on the wall. In Europe bloggers can get away with this but in America it's the kiss of death to advocate for neo-Nazi groups.

152 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:17:46pm

re: #125 wolfie

Me, neither. Not on my worst day.

153 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:17:52pm

re: #141 Jimmy The Clam

Read the entire comment. Last I looked, it was Nazis who made lampshades (and other stuff) out of humans.

154 Racer X  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:18:05pm

re: #108 dual_boot_brain

Why is it when the going gets tough the Euros' go genocide? What is this bizarre, Wagner-ian, epic-slaughter mindset that they have? Is there something in the water that drives them to want to kill anyone who doesn't look like them?

IF the West is going to win the fight against Islamization, it will be by conversion to sanity. Not by force or genocide or deportations. Convince them Western ideology is better for the human species.

Lead by example.

155 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:18:35pm

re: #12 Dianna

What drives me crazy is the way El Ingles simply ignores the best option: don't allow the ghettoization. Insist on integration.

No kidding. Deport the imams, insist on a common language and secular instruction, tighten up quotas, and exorcise the demon of Saudi Cancer Cash from your education system?

No, don't do that. Just fantasize about playing Heinrich Himmler all over again.

The more Europe changes, the more it stays the same, eh?

I spit on GOV.

156 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:18:44pm

re: #138 Sol Roth

Excellent post Sol.

157 Alouette  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:18:48pm

Somehow we managed to destroy Nazism and Fascism and Bushido without genocide of every German, Italian and Japanese.

158 hermeneutics  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:19:49pm

How do people of such different religio-cultural outlooks live together? That's the real question: CAN THE WEST AND ISLAM CO-EXIST?

If the answer is, "no," then it is incumbent on us to decide how to deal with it without lowering ourselves to genocide.

1. We could geographically partition ourselves, for instance, like the Cyprus model.
2. We could demand that non-Westerners accept Western laws, minimally. Forcing Muslim kids to learn and respect Western values in school could be a part of this demand.
3. We could socially partition ourselves, allowing the strong ideology to dominate. This involves a confindence in Western Judeo-Christian values that we may have already lost.

What else?

If we can't co-exist, then what do we do?

159 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:19:56pm

re: #147 formercorpsman

And it is exactly this steel cage match I think these folks want so desperately. Without it, they cannot justify what they want to do, and how they want to rule.

160 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:20:12pm

I'd like to buy the world a home
And furnish it with love
Grow apple trees and honey bees
And snow white turtle doves.

It may take a while. There is some unfinished business in Europe and the Middle East.

161 Jimmy The Clam  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:20:42pm

re: #153 Honorary Yooper

Read the entire comment. Last I looked, it was Nazis who made lampshades (and other stuff) out of humans.

I did read it, but the part you singled out was the targeted executions.

162 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:21:48pm

re: #146 Honorary Yooper

I agree. I think this genocide post is a reaction to their criticism of Robert Spencer for not advocating enough action. They're whipping themselves into a frenzy.

163 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:21:51pm

re: #128 theblakester

Very simple.

No separate way of life. No sharia - not within your "communities" and not outside it.

And, if they push it far enough, if they try to deprive their sisters and daughters of their rights as citizens and free people, we will intervene to ban their practices that oppress their women. It's coercive, but I think it's acceptable on the grounds of the rights of citizens.

And, finally, if there is terrorism, their mosques will be monitored. I won't like it, but there it will be, and I will accept it. Just as I have no problem with the monitoring of "christian identity" churches, which have proven to be hotbeds of illegal activities.

164 esch  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:22:22pm

re: #126 Ojoe

What we need to do is regain a rock solid confidence in ourselves and our western values (let us admit they are mostly Judeo-Christian); when we regain this, the islamics will act puny and the problem will be over in a few generations as their children change their allegiance to the stronger group.

IMHO of course.

IF that happened, then yes the stronger moral system would probably prevail. Western culture is pretty well into the decay phase, so I consider it extremely unlikely.

The 'barbarians' are collecting at the gates. We need other solutions.

165 guzziguy  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:23:06pm

re: #133 Occasional Reader

Just watching The Deer Hunter, the point where DeNiro shoots the deer.

I really, really, could never shoot a deer. It just ain't in me.

No problem. Deer in my area, if not hunted, become overpopulated and cause all type of problems. Among the most serious of these problems is collisions with automobiles. Very dangerous. Additionally, overpopulation exposes the animals to starvation, the environment to over grazing, and pandemic illness within the herd.

All that is completely avoidable simply by letting sportsmen do something they enjoy and use to feed themselves. Game management by hunting keeps the size of the herd under control and healthy.

If we ever meet I'd love to share some venison jerky with you.

166 CapeCoddah  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:23:11pm

Correct me if I am wrong, but does that author say that here are 3 options for europe, and a little further in, say option 1 & 2 wont work, so that only leaves Genocide? Not that the firs two are sane, but, c'mon, openly and clearly advocating Genocide? I cant even comprehend that. I dont know if I would WANT to comprehend that.

167 Macker  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:23:14pm

With all this crap going on, now I have to wonder if these things which the GoV folks are espousing are the real reason Airbus developed the A380....

168 shibumi  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:23:25pm
If violence does erupt in European countries between natives and Muslims, I consider it highly likely that people who had never done anything more violent than beat eggs will prove incapable of managing the psychological transition to controlled violence and start killing anything that looks remotely Muslim.

This doesn't ring true. When Hitler invaded Poland, France, etc. did the citizens rise up and murder random German citizens? Did those of Jewish descent hunt down non-military Germans and kill them? I realize that this is stretching the point, but WWII is the last war in Europe and the most logical frame of reference.

The people of Western Europe (outside of random soccer hooligans) are culturally impotent and incapable of winning a war. This was proved in the last two world wars. If confronted with Muslim violence (unlikely, since just threatening makes the Europeans quiver in their collective boots) they will cower like frightened children and cry for the U.S. fix their problem. Sad, but true.

169 mikeinmd  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:23:28pm

In my own small way, I fight Islamization with derision and exposure.

What I just read there (comments included) makes me gag.

170 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:23:59pm

re: #161 Jimmy The Clam

I did read it, but the part you singled out was the targeted executions.

If you are pointing out some sort of moral equilvalence here, then I fail to see it. Last I looked, Israel is at war with Hamas, Europe is not at war with the Islamists within its borders. Just a slight difference there, Jimmy.

You don't do targeted executions on those who you are not at war with.

171 Racer X  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:24:04pm

re: #162 Killgore Trout

The fight between Islam and, well, pretty much everyone else, has been raging for centuries. It will not be resolved this year or next. It will take a long time.

172 Ojoe  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:24:11pm

re: #157 Alouette

Japan lost 3-4%, Germany about 10%; I am not sure about Italy.

Then there are the losses of the allies; Russia in particular lost many many.

173 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:24:12pm

re: #162 Killgore Trout

I think you hit a nerve there Killgore.

It makes quite a bit of sense.

174 Sol Roth  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:25:33pm

Thank you Cattt and formercorpsman! We must remember our brothers and sisters in arms. Here is a link posted this morning you might find interesting. [warning: tearjerker]

[Link: www.warriorsthefilm.com...]

175 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:25:49pm

Good Evening Lizards! It was glorious then rainy in the Very Far Western Suburbs of Chicagoland today.

Did we have hatchlings?

How are you-all today and what are we talking about?

176 esch  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:26:02pm

re: #164 esch

We need other solutions.

Other than genocide, mass deportations or surrender.

Just thought I'd clarify.

177 mjazzguitar  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:26:18pm

re: #145 J.S.

On the continent (not the UK), there are specific laws (especially in Germany) which ban anything which would be expressing admiration for Hitler, etc. (no uniforms, no paraphenalia, no dressing up, no salutes, no swastika flags, none of this can be displayed in public, etc.) -- although, obviously, this isn't always enforced...and (apparently) there's quite a bit of "underground" activities...(particularly from the former East Germans).

Germany even bans cults like Scientology.

178 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:26:19pm

Folks, have a good night.

I'm turning in.

Wife wants me to rub her neck.

179 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:26:38pm

re: #173 formercorpsman

This is one thing in the blog world but in the meat world it's a different story. This is the kind of stuff that drives people over the edge and there's a very real possibility that people can get hurt.

180 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:27:12pm

re: #155 Pawn of the Oppressor

That's an individual writer; don't lay it on all of Europe!

I know Ralph Peters thinks the Europeans will revert to the dark, atavistic, barbarian past, but I don't think it's inevitable.

181 freetoken  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:27:31pm

re: #163 Dianna

I take it then you may not be favor of this:

Britain: Islam helping against financial crisis

182 theblakester  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:27:37pm

#163 Dianna, while I respect your approach to this maddening scenario, let's hope the cooler heads will prevail!

183 mjazzguitar  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:27:51pm

re: #144 USBeast

No, I was born a long time ago. My point was that we in America are not facing the same threat that Europe is. We still have (as long as we defend it) the Constitution. Europe is throwing away every vestige of freedom for an illusion of peace. God help them.

We lost 3000 people from an izlamic terror attack and we are not facing the same threat?

184 Jimmy The Clam  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:28:05pm

re: #170 Honorary Yooper

If you are pointing out some sort of moral equilvalence[sic] here, then I fail to see it. Last I looked, Israel is at war with Hamas, Europe is not at war with the Islamists within its borders. Just a slight difference there, Jimmy.

You don't do targeted executions on those who you are not at war with.

You are the one making the moral equivalence argument.
I just pointed out the absurdity of your statement.

As for the rest of your post...

Can I get a show of hands from anyone here that does not think that Islam is already "at war" with Western civilization?

185 USBeast  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:28:23pm

re: #138 Sol Roth

I take it you are an American by your nic. You must know that we have had 1.6 million service personnel defending "The West" in two fronts against Islamic nazis, going on seven years now. That includes military from Britain, Denmark and Australia.

That is the way it will be won; prosecuted by professionals, not by thugs in a wet dream.

Yes, I am an American. I am damned proud of that fact. My nickname is short for Ugly Smelly Beast.

Any implication that I denigrate the efforts of the brave men and women of the military of any of the countries who are working to preserve the blessings of liberty is pure slander.

Any implications that I denigrate the Leftist politicos that are trying to sell us off to Dhimmitude are totally justified.

186 J.S.  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:28:46pm

re: #177 mjazzguitar

That's right. They have extremely strict laws with respect to what constitutes a "religion" -- Scientology doesn't cut it...it's considered a "cult" and is under constant scrutiny...(legitimate religions receive government monies).

187 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:28:55pm

re: #179 Killgore Trout

I know I said I'm gone, but i just saw your post.

I never put the 2 together until you mentioned it.

Mr. Spencer opining how he did.

Good observation.

Up there with the thread about paying for Hamas news guys.

188 NY Nana  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:29:00pm

re: #136 MandyManners

I worry about The Kid's world!

So do I, for oyur Kid...and my 3 grandkids and my own kids..what kind of a world are we giving them?

We cannot afford to ignore the current situation, yet those on the left sit in a circle jerk, singing 'kumbaya'...they are the enemy, along with the cult of islam, and those who 'forgot' 9/11, and far too many others.

189 Ojoe  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:29:08pm

re: #164 esch

an interesting take on your point in an interview witth Ratzinger before he became the current Pope:


the quote is from a book-length interview w/ then Cardinal Ratzinger, entitled God and the World. Hows’ that for a broad and vast subject? An excerpt:
Question:
Many years ago, you made a prophetic statement about the Church of the future: ‘The Church,’ you said at that time, ‘will become small, and will to a great
extent have to start over again. But after a time of testing, an internalized and simplified Church will radiate great power and influence; for the population of an entirely planned and controlled world are going to be inexpressibly lonely...and they will then
discover the little community of believers as something quite new - as a hope that is there for them, as the answer they have secretly always been asking for.’ It looks as though you are going to be right about this. But how are things going to develop in Europe?
Ratzinger/Benedict XVI:
First of all: Is the Church really going to get smaller? When I said that, I was reproached from all sides for pessimism. And nowadays nothing seems less tolerated than what people call pessimism - and which is often in fact just realism. Meanwhile, most people admit that at the present stage of things in Europe the number of baptized Christians is simply dwindling. In a city like Magdeburg, only 8 percent of the people are still Christians - and mark you, that’s all kinds of Christians, put together. Such statistical findings show the existence of trends that are indisputable. In that sense, the extent to which church and society are seen as synonymous in some cultural areas, with us in Germany, for instance, will diminish. We simply have to face up to this.

this is from the Anchoress:

[Link: theanchoressonline.com...]

190 rockdad  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:30:28pm

re: #154 Racer X

I've heard 3 plus times now, Muslim's will have to change and see the light. Why, when with low European birthrates and high Muslim birthrates, the exponential changes in the dominant cultures will only accelerate. The only change will be the government policy's of the future to sharia, I fear.
What can be done about that, besides changing a 1600 year old ROP, which I see no outward movement of? Just a question.

191 Catttt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:30:37pm

re: #151 Killgore Trout

I have wondered about that. She's been rather quiet about racist European political parties recently. Makes me wonder if she see's the writing on the wall. In Europe bloggers can get away with this but in America it's the kiss of death to advocate for neo-Nazi groups.

To quote the Blues Brothers:

Elwood: Illinois Nazis.
Jake: I hate Illinois Nazis.

192 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:31:02pm

re: #172 Ojoe

20 million, at least.

193 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:31:26pm

I can understand deportation of those who won't live in peace with Western values. If you choose to live somewhere, you should be willing to accept their societal norms; when in Rome and all that. And they have many countries they can go to and live in peace.

But calling for killing of any group is repulsive. And worse, once this crowd is done with the Muslims, can the Jews be that far behind?
Even if they come for my enemy, I have to speak up, because I can be next.

194 MandyManners  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:31:38pm

re: #188 NY Nana

So do I, for oyur Kid...and my 3 grandkids and my own kids..what kind of a world are we giving them?

We cannot afford to ignore the current situation, yet those on the left sit in a circle jerk, singing 'kumbaya'...they are the enemy, along with the cult of islam, and those who 'forgot' 9/11, and far too many others.

I reckon all we can do on a personal level is ensure that our kids are taught their American history and heritage, and the truth about Islam.

195 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:31:59pm

re: #160 Kreuzueber Halbmond

You know, that is a nice idea. I'm not sure I would particularly like a lot of honey bees, or snow-white turtle doves. Maybe some pink ones or jet black ones.

Utopia is a fantasy simply because everyone's version of it is different.

Heaven on Earth means we all have to die first --I think that is where the islamawhackos want us all to be.

196 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:32:25pm

re: #181 freetoken

Not one little bit.

197 gman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:33:20pm

re: #144 USBeast

No, I was born a long time ago. My point was that we in America are not facing the same threat that Europe is. We still have (as long as we defend it) the Constitution. Europe is throwing away every vestige of freedom for an illusion of peace. God help them.

Did you miss the Berkeley post today, the Terrorist Fundraisers post yesterday, and the hundreds of posts before that describing how the Islamic Jihadists are actively trying to undermine our way of life here in America?

198 mich-again  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:33:43pm

Odd, but just the other day I read a story in which Bumpy Zawahiri actually kind of agreed with that post.

In another answer Tuesday, al-Zawahiri said it was against Islamic religious law for any Muslim to live permanently in a Western country, because in doing so, they would "have permanent stay there under the laws of the infidels."

So I guess we have found at least one person who agrees with GoV. Nice company you are keeping there Baron Bodissey.

199 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:33:44pm
200 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:34:00pm

re: #184 Jimmy The Clam

I hate to tell you this, but their being at war with us is not the point.

The point is how we will respond.

201 Yankee Division Son  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:34:12pm

Dachau, why do we keep it standing?


"There is an answer to the doctor's question. All the Dachaus must remain standing. The Dachaus, the Belsens, the Buchenwalds, the Auschwitzes - all of them. They must remain standing because they are a monument to a moment in time when some men decided to turn the Earth into a graveyard. Into it they shoveled all their reason, their logic, their knowledge, but worst of all, their conscience. And the moment we forget this, the moment we cease to be haunted by its remembrance, then we become the gravediggers. Something to dwell on and remember, not only in the Twilight Zone but wherever men walk God's Earth."

And the Gusens as well... Never Forget.

202 joecitizen  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:35:02pm

re: #194 MandyManners

I reckon all we can do on a personal level is ensure that our kids are taught their American history and heritage, and the truth about Islam.

and a healthy working knowledge of firearms and survival skills won't hurt either..

203 esch  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:35:23pm

re: #186 J.S.

That's right. They have extremely strict laws with respect to what constitutes a "religion" -- Scientology doesn't cut it...it's considered a "cult" and is under constant scrutiny...(legitimate religions receive government monies).

They have a long track record of persecuting minority faiths.

It doesn't really matter, as Germany's native population is imploding so fast that the country will be entirely different in 30 years.

204 mjazzguitar  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:36:06pm

re: #188 NY Nana

So do I, for oyur Kid...and my 3 grandkids and my own kids..what kind of a world are we giving them?

We cannot afford to ignore the current situation, yet those on the left sit in a circle jerk, singing 'kumbaya'...they are the enemy, along with the cult of islam, and those who 'forgot' 9/11, and far too many others.

You're right, people are "igonore-ant", trying to raise a family while wondering how long the present job will last, and trying to find some enjoyment in life at the same time. Worrying does no good, but soemtimes it's hard not to.

205 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:36:38pm

Baron retorts (sort of)....
I Hear My Train A-Comin’

Comment: "The perfect reply to the Grand Poohbah of Idiots. What a maroon Charles is."

uhhhhh....what?

206 Thanos  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:36:57pm

Dang, I thought the VB fan I was "discussing things with" had fled up here.

Ah well, I"m sure some will show up on the morrow.

207 Sol Roth  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:37:14pm

re: #185 USBeast

Yes, I am an American. I am damned proud of that fact. My nickname is short for Ugly Smelly Beast.

Any implication that I denigrate the efforts of the brave men and women of the military of any of the countries who are working to preserve the blessings of liberty is pure slander.

Any implications that I denigrate the Leftist politicos that are trying to sell us off to Dhimmitude are totally justified.

Whoa! Hold on there! I don't snark and there were zero implications of you denigrating the military's efforts. I was filling in hole left in your posts that seemed fatalistic, like you had forgotten the effort. I'm sure you are a patriotic American or you wouldn't be posting here.

Friends?

208 Dianna  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:37:25pm

Garbage time, then probably walkies for the dogs, then I think we're heading for bed, so I'm signing off.

Goodnight, lizards.

209 joecitizen  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:37:38pm

re: #202 joecitizen

and a healthy working knowledge of firearms and survival skills won't hurt either..


oh, and Shakespeare..

210 shibumi  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:37:49pm

re: #190 rockdad

I've heard 3 plus times now, Muslim's will have to change and see the light. Why, when with low European birthrates and high Muslim birthrates, the exponential changes in the dominant cultures will only accelerate. The only change will be the government policy's of the future to sharia, I fear.
What can be done about that, besides changing a 1600 year old ROP, which I see no outward movement of? Just a question.

Well, individual governments can use tax incentives for people to have children- they did something similar in Russia recently. They could also encourage schools to teach civic/national pride. They could mandate assimilation, and get rid of Muslim only ghettos. Or even better, send missionaries into those enclaves and encourage them to convert to Christianity.

(Yea, I know the last suggestion will never happen. As for the rest, they're doubtful too. But they could be done.)

211 freetoken  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:38:37pm

re: #196 Dianna

Not one little bit.

That video mentioned "sukak bonds" but I think they meant Sukuk bonds, no?

Anyway, if the UK is now issuing such bonds, can the US Treasury be far behind? We need to borrow lots (and lots) of money, and with the sovereign wealth funds of the Persian Gulf being likely buyers, what if they start requesting such types of bonds?

212 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:38:43pm

re: #166 CapeCoddah

Correct me if I am wrong, but does that author say that here are 3 options for europe, and a little further in, say option 1 & 2 wont work, so that only leaves Genocide? Not that the firs two are sane, but, c'mon, openly and clearly advocating Genocide? I cant even comprehend that. I dont know if I would WANT to comprehend that.

Interesting- there are three options- 1 & 2 won't work leaving 3, but he's not advocating 3! He takes all that time to discuss option 3, after disregarding 1 & 2, but then says he's not advocating it. So- he wasted his time writing all of that?

Of course not- because really he is advocating for option 3. Otherwise he would have spent more time finding something workable. Because the truth is- there are more than these three options anyways.

How about- enforcing their existing laws, for a start. Jail people burning cars. Maybe they should start with a few things like that before running towards slaughter. People like this author don't want that- they have an insatiable blood-lust, and the counter-jihad movement gives them great cover.

213 realwest  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:39:01pm

Hey y'all - what have I missed?! LOL!

214 Dr. Shalit  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:39:31pm

re: #196 Dianna

Not one little bit.

Dianna -

Take it one step further - Islam forbids "interest" - AND - allows "rent."
Not too hard to figure out, eh?

-S-

215 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:39:37pm

re: #205 Killgore Trout

I saw that too- and I was wondering- does that train run on time?

216 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:39:38pm

re: #189 Ojoe

At the risk of derailing this thread (again) I don't expect the Pope to be of much help on the issue of Islam in Europe. He's a toothless diplomat with waning influence in Europe. He'll maintain the status quo at best.

217 Charles  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:40:15pm

re: #205 Killgore Trout

Baron retorts (sort of)....
I Hear My Train A-Comin’

Comment: "The perfect reply to the Grand Poohbah of Idiots. What a maroon Charles is."

uhhhhh....what?

That's not going to satisfy the creeps who read his blog; there will be more.

It's always nice to read about people fantasizing that I'll be crushed by a train, though.

218 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:40:25pm

re: #215 Sharmuta

Ha!

219 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:40:30pm

re: #213 realwest

Hey rw --how'd it go today?

Still on the GOV discussion.

220 USBeast  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:40:32pm

re: #183 mjazzguitar

We lost 3000 people from an izlamic terror attack and we are not facing the same threat?

No sir, we are not facing the same threat. We do not have "Asian youths" burning cars in our streets. None of our cartoonists are in hiding. No Muslim apostates are pleading for government protection from the "Religion of Peace".

Europe is a battleground. Unless and until we recognize that fact, we put ourselves in the same position the deniers of Hitler's threat put us in in 1939.

221 TalkinKamel  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:40:41pm

#193 Kosh's Shadow

Reading some of the comments over there, I'm getting the funny feeling that the Jews would actually be first if these guys came to power---and they'd probably never get around to tackling Islam; might even make an alliance with them, as in WWII.

You know, these guys supporters all talk as if these characters were the mighty Euro Rangers or something, boldly standing up to the Islamist threat when everybody else is running away. . . but, honestly, what have they actually accomplished? Groups such as Vlaams Belang seem famous mainly for getting into fights with their own country's police, stunts such as laying wreaths on Nazi graves and, as in the case of the British Lionheart, an obsession with drugs and the prostitution of European women (Zionist porn dragon, anybody?) , but, seriously, what have they actually accomplished? Have they brought any terrorists to justice? Uncovered any plots? Where were they when the St. George's Day parade was cancelled, for fear of offending Moslems? If they're so brave and stalwart, why didn't they just go ahead and hold the parade anyway? Why didn't they pressure local authorities not to cave in? And when I last checked, drug abuse, and prostitution of too many women, from all over the world, was still going on, so they haven't been real effective there, either.

As for Dymphna, and the Baron. . . well, the Baron was doing some good work when he investigated Jamat al Furqa, but these days GoV seems to be all about what's going on in Europe, and defending BNP and Vlaams Belang.

222 reno911  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:40:49pm

Darwin will sort it all out.

223 NY Nana  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:40:54pm

re: #151 Killgore Trout

I have wondered about that. She's been rather quiet about racist European political parties recently. Makes me wonder if she see's the writing on the wall. In Europe bloggers can get away with this but in America it's the kiss of death to advocate for neo-Nazi groups.

To be honest, I do not read her blog any more. To me it is a conundrum..she is an ardent Zionist, yet at the same time, she was on the side of neo-nazis, and what she posted elsewhere during the first blog war was just despicable.

I just hope for her daughters' sake she has woken up.

To this day, I cannot believe what she posted here that night, and how she addressed Charles, the man she had called her 'blog daddy'..but for me, as a Jew, her saying that 'all Europeans worked both sides of the street' or something like that, during WWII, and when she was told off by everyone for such a hateful, hurtful remark, she used her family members who died in the ovens as a shield. Why she did not think of them when she aligned herself with neo-nazis and fascists, I do not understand even 6 months later.

224 Racer X  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:40:54pm

re: #190 rockdad

I've heard 3 plus times now, Muslim's will have to change and see the light. Why, when with low European birthrates and high Muslim birthrates, the exponential changes in the dominant cultures will only accelerate. The only change will be the government policy's of the future to sharia, I fear.
What can be done about that, besides changing a 1600 year old ROP, which I see no outward movement of? Just a question.

Excellent question. What needs to change?

1. Immigration laws. Immigrants must adhere to the laws of the country they emigrate to.

2. Immigrants must adopt the customs of the new country - not the other way around.

3. Terrorism. Any group that advocates or supports terrorist groups must be severely punished. They have to understand that will not be tolerated. Period.

225 mich-again  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:41:31pm

re: #216 Killgore Trout

I don't expect the Pope to be of much help...

There you go again.

226 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:41:42pm

re: #216 Killgore Trout

He'll hole up in the Vatican with a few true believers and the Swiss Guard --they'll emerge in 200 years when the radiation clears.

227 Catttt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:41:44pm

re: #195 ggt

Most people assume Utopia means "%u03B5%u1F56 %u03C4%u03CC%u03C0%u03BF%u03C2" - "good place" - and forget that it also means "%u03BF%u1F50 %u03C4%u03CC%u03C0%u03BF%u03C2" - "no place." (I read everything I could find about Thomas More as a teen - blame Robert Bolt).

228 realwest  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:42:08pm

re: #217 Charles Hey Charles, it could be worse - they could be fantasizing that you'll come over to their side!
(boy, talk about a fantasy!).

229 J.S.  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:42:31pm

re: #168 shibumi

There are 3,200 (approx) German troops in northern Afghanistan. Lately, German politicians have come under fire from their NATO allies, because German politicians have refused to send in more troops...(Canadians are also in Afghanistan, but in the more dangerous areas...)

230 mich-again  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:42:43pm

re: #224 Racer X

I agree with 1 and 3 completely. 2, not so much.

231 NY Nana  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:43:27pm

re: #194 MandyManners

I reckon all we can do on a personal level is ensure that our kids are taught their American history and heritage, and the truth about Islam.

Exactly! Your Kid is a very lucky one.

232 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:44:25pm

re: #223 NY Nana

I suspect she convinced herself that as long as they outwardly adopted a pro-Israel stance it was justifiable. I also suspect her solutions to the trouble with Islam are rather extreme by our standards. I'm sure she's a nice person but she's lost her mind.

233 mich-again  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:44:34pm

re: #226 ggt

He'll hole up in the Vatican with a few true believers and the Swiss Guard --they'll emerge in 200 years when the radiation clears.

They will live 200 years holed up in the Vatican? Wow. Dudes already over 80 and you think he has another 120+ years in him?

234 Ojoe  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:44:34pm

re: #216 Killgore Trout

Unexpected things may happen, such as Gorbachev declaring that he is a Christian.

235 wolfie  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:44:34pm

re: #193 Kosh's Shadow

"Can the Jews be far behind?"
In my opinion, NO. Unless you consider ten seconds "far behind."
That's just my opinion.

236 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:44:38pm

re: #221 TalkinKamel

Reading the comments- one person suggested that Jews and Catholics be barred from holding any positions of power. I really don't think they see how they are as much haters as the islamists they claim to oppose. I mean- islam bars "people of the book" from positions of power! These people are fascists!

237 realwest  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:44:46pm

re: #219 ggt Ok, I guess, they want MORE tests. Still won't know until I see my onc on Tuesday what's really going on.
Thanks for asking and we now return you to your regularly scheduled program!

238 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:44:50pm

re: #227 Catttt

I've still not been able to get thru Sir Thomas. I've read alot about him and his works --and other utopian/dystopia themes, but I found both his and Plato's Republic as boring as Beowulf. I do keep trying.

239 SusanL  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:45:00pm

re: #177 mjazzguitar

I'm not surprised the Germans banned Scientology, those people are crazy. I look at John Travolta and am just baffled.

I hope this fascist view does not find a legitimate voice. I have witnessed first hand how a crowd can be "whipped into a frenzy". When we were stationed in West Germany (1981) my ex-husband got us involved with Amway. We went to a recruiting program that was held in a large auditorium in Saarbrucken. The response of the crowd, the chanting, the adoration of the speakers....Wow at that moment, I understood how the right words from the right speaker, really can be dangerous.

Funny thing, even my (long list of negative, unflattering adjectives) ex-husband was taken aback. Needless to say, that was the end of the Amway.

Incitement. There are reasons that it is a crime.

240 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:45:08pm

re: #225 mich-again

I know. I can't help it.

241 rorschach  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:45:48pm

I tried reading the Gates post, but it was so l-o-n-g.

What did suddenly strike me, in the first thousand or so words, was the sheer desperation that the resident Europeans and Brits must feel at having their homeland stolen, inch by inch.

I'm worried about the situation in the U.S. They must be absolutely terrified.

242 MandyManners  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:45:59pm

re: #202 joecitizen

and a healthy working knowledge of firearms and survival skills won't hurt either..

Those are part of history and heritage.

243 Racer X  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:46:00pm

re: #230 mich-again

I agree with 1 and 3 completely. 2, not so much.

What I meant by #2 was in reference to things like clitorectomies. That custom could be left at the border.

244 Promethea  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:46:18pm

re: #70 Dianna

Refer to my #12.

Oh, and stop muslim immigration for a while. Certainly, they don't get to import child-brides any more!

If the U.S. government would use a little "tough love," and require the Muslims to follow the rules that the rest of us are supposed to follow, then most of the problems would generally disappear after a few decades (I tend to think in terms of decades). Ditto for Muslim preachers not preaching hate and mass murder in their mosques. If calling for murder is against the law for non-Muslims, then it's also against the law for Muslims. That would take care of a lot of jihad-talk and Jew-killing talk in Wahhabist-dominated mosques in the U.S.A.

Sometimes the solutions to problems are rather simple.

245 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:46:20pm

re: #221 TalkinKamel

#193 Kosh's Shadow

Reading some of the comments over there, I'm getting the funny feeling that the Jews would actually be first if these guys came to power---and they'd probably never get around to tackling Islam; might even make an alliance with them, as in WWII.


Thanks. You make a good point.
And thanks to Charles and lizards for not making alliances with people like this.

246 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:46:23pm

re: #216 Killgore Trout

At the risk of derailing this thread (again) I don't expect the Pope to be of much help on the issue of Islam in Europe. He's a toothless diplomat with waning influence in Europe. He'll maintain the status quo at best.

I asked a very smart man to translate something in Italian the Pope had written when he was first ordained. It wasn't available anywhere in English and I could only make out part of it.

So I say, what's it say?
and he says:
Well, basically it says
"I will be of absolutely no use to you in the coming troubles. God bless you"

;~}

247 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:46:28pm

re: #233 mich-again

You know --the next Pope and the next. The Church has been around along time, they think in centuries, not years, or days or minutes. I have no doubt there is a contingency plan.

248 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:46:35pm

re: #222 reno911

IXnay on the Arwinday!

249 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:46:37pm
250 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:47:09pm

re: #246 BabbaZee

Ha!

251 Ojoe  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:47:30pm

re: #247 ggt

The Church sees the biggest of the big pictures

252 wolfie  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:48:12pm

re: #208 Dianna

Goodnight. And thanks for so many clear thoughts!

253 joecitizen  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:48:15pm

re: #238 ggt

I've still not been able to get thru Sir Thomas. I've read alot about him and his works --and other utopian/dystopia themes, but I found both his and Plato's Republic as boring as Beowulf. I do keep trying.

Beowulf is da bomb..Plato was a homogenizing punk..

254 mich-again  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:48:23pm

re: #194 MandyManners

I reckon all we can do on a personal level is ensure that our kids are taught their American history and heritage, and the truth about Islam.

Teach them to love. You can't go wrong with that.

255 Sol Roth  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:48:38pm

Buenas noches a todos.

SR

256 Ojoe  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:49:00pm

re: #254 mich-again

Get them in Scouts too.

257 MandyManners  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:49:07pm

re: #231 NY Nana

Exactly! Your Kid is a very lucky one.

So are yours and theirs.

258 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:49:19pm
259 realwest  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:49:40pm

re: #254 mich-again Hey mich! I think if you teach them to demand respect first, the love will follow. But respect in public matters and from "the people" I think comes before love.

260 Catttt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:50:02pm

re: #225 mich-again

There you go again.

President Reagan, is that you? ;)

261 realwest  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:50:17pm

re: #255 Sol Roth Manana, amigo!

262 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:50:27pm

re: #241 rorschach

First of all- the fascists are counting on that fear to sweep them into power.

Second- fear is not a legitimate reason to excuse fascism or give in to genocidal fantasies.

If they want to do something- they should start with enforcing their laws.

263 J.S.  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:50:49pm

re: #203 esch

I consider Scientology a cult, not a religion. (I'm actually sympathetic to German authorities who wish to ban Scientology -- Scientology is not recognized as a "religion" in Germany, but it's not "banned" -- not yet, anyway. Last year there were some politicians who were attempting to get it outright banned...but I don't believe their efforts have been successful. For over ten years the Germany authorities have been monitoring Scientology offices...)

264 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:51:22pm
265 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:51:54pm

re: #254 mich-again

and boundries = what Love does not mean.

Love does not mean giving up your responsibilty to defend yourselves, your family and your home.

Love does not mean giving to others until you cannot feed yourself.

Love does not mean accepting bad things because it is respectful.

. . . . .

266 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:52:20pm
267 MandyManners  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:52:42pm

re: #254 mich-again

re: #194 MandyManners


Teach them to love. You can't go wrong with that.

I can't teach him to love as I am teaching the tangible stuff. The love is picked up in a million ways every day.

268 USBeast  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:52:51pm

re: #207 Sol Roth

Whoa! Hold on there! I don't snark and there were zero implications of you denigrating the military's efforts. I was filling in hole left in your posts that seemed fatalistic, like you had forgotten the effort. I'm sure you are a patriotic American or you wouldn't be posting here.

Friends?

Hail and well met.

I am by no means fatalistic. I believe that Liberty will prevail. My fear is that the cost will be blood and slaughter.

I HATE this idea, but I will not deny the possibility or its preferability to Dhimmitude.

269 Promethea  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:52:52pm

re: #77 Sharmuta

The crypto-fascists of europe fan the flames of fear because it helps them rise to power. Things aren't just bad- they're terrible, and if you elect us we'll make it stop. Things are bad, but not so bad as to excuse turning to fascist solutions.

As I said in a previous post (#244), a lot of problems could be solved if responsible governments just used common sense and applied the law. For example, the U.K. just refused to take down Somali pirates because they might be "persecuted" in Somalia. Is that not stupid? Luckily the French decided to capture the pirates, and, I hope, do what governments are supposed to do to pirates.

It's time for us normal people to demand common sense from our various governments. That includes prosecuting criminal behavior.

270 marsouin  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:53:02pm

Although GoV's has indeed gone overboard, but the situation in Europe is dire. Large muslim communities and Western culture can never co-exist: at the end of this century only one of the two will be left standing in Europe. The few euros who get this rightly see their civilization in a battle for its own existence and legacy, and they feel the odds are against success. This frustration is understandable, but the solution is not.

However, I find the odds of a orgy of violence in the next 20 years is, unfortunately, very likely. The targets: those elites, socialists all, who have sold out their heritage for lust of power, and the newcomers who refuse or cannot assimilate.

The same thing may happen here in the US as different ethnic groups fight over the crumbs of socialist largesse. (We are no longer living under the Founder's constitution since its replacement by a social democratic model in the late 1930's.) All to the detriment of the future of the US: there are no longer core values that unite us. We are becoming more and more splintered, with newcomers instructed not to assimilate. I doubt the US will be recognizable 100 years from now, if it still exists as one single country.

271 mich-again  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:53:06pm

re: #241 rorschach

I tried reading the Gates post, but it was so l-o-n-g.

Fjordman's trademark is the 10,000 word essay that can be summed up in three words. Deport the Muslims. I could not stand his bullshit when he posted here. Dude. Save everyone some time and shed the 9,997 useless words.

272 gman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:53:09pm

re: #220 USBeast

Europe is a battleground. Unless and until we recognize that fact, we put ourselves in the same position the deniers of Hitler's threat put us in in 1939.

Where have I heard this type of thinking before? Oh yeah. GoV and BJ

273 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:53:20pm

re: #264 song_and_dance_man

lol
I got my shock and awe alright
it just wasn't the shock and awe I voted for

274 JHW  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:53:55pm

One of the many things I object to about these people is their insistence
that it`s now late in the 11th hour and if we don`t do something right now, we`re doomed. Their next question is what else can we do, give me some solutions right now.They`re in a near panic mode.

They can demand more of their mainstream political parties. Dianna gave excellent examples of what can be done, soon, without selling out our ideals or humanity. Most European countries, unlike the US, have state-supported religions. It`s about time to put that power to constructive use, pre-emptively training Muslim clerics with a reform, Westernized outlook. It can and is being done, as I posted in a spin-off link some time ago. The Imans are the key and rabble-rousers in all this.

No state has a right to subvert another state. That means Saudi Arabia doesn`t have an automatic right to export Wahabism anywhere it wants. It`s long past time the blind eye was turned to their propagandizing , and their actions religious extremist imports need to be curtailed or de-fanged consistent with the rule of law in civilized countries.

I`m not so pessimistic about the Islamic world, i.e. their all being identical fanatics waiting to happen. It`s the imans that are poisoning the well, I say that because I very much doubt most Muslims know much about the Koran, it`s in a foreign , Arabic, language. They know what the imans tell them, and they know the 5 pillars of Islam, but they`re profoundly ignorant of most else.They memorize a book in madrassas that they don`t understand a word of. Somehow, we`re going to have to get a grip on the wahabbi and the iman problem. Their are large Muslim ethnic minorities, right now, in some parts of the world. That are practically 5 Pillar Muslims only, such as the Chams of Southeast Asia. If I`m not mistaken, they even raise pigs for sale to their non-Muslim neighbors.

All this is above my pay grade, but it`s what we pay our political leaders to do, and we should demand it of them. I`ve really had enough of either pretending there`s no problem or indulging in doom and gloom pessimism.

275 rorschach  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:54:03pm
#262 Sharmuta
If they want to do something- they should start with enforcing their laws.

That's the problem. Average folks have no control over the powers that be. The people would enforce the laws if they only could.

276 NY Nana  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:54:54pm

re: #232 Killgore Trout

I suspect she convinced herself that as long as they outwardly adopted a pro-Israel stance it was justifiable. I also suspect her solutions to the trouble with Islam are rather extreme by our standards. I'm sure she's a nice person but she's lost her mind.

I agree with you. I think, too, that her blog success, which she has worked very hard on, has gone to her head...sad. I just went there, and it is quite good...nothing re the neo-nazis, and GoV.

277 realwest  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:55:27pm

re: #269 Promethea Are you sure it was the French that took down those pirates? I thought I read a news item that it was
another African government that had it's troops board that ship and "capture" the pirates, badly wounding three of the pirates?

278 joecitizen  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:55:44pm

re: #266 buzzsawmonkey

To Beowulf or not to Beowulf...that is the question.

whether 'tis nobler to accept the slings and arrows of the middle ages...

279 ploome hineni[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:55:48pm
280 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:56:07pm

re: #274 JHW

Excellent post.

281 ploome hineni[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:56:32pm
282 Fionn MacCumhaill  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:56:59pm

My prediction is that the European situation will finally rupture in a completely unexpected way, sparked by something that starts small that finally pushes the original European populations past their limits, much in the way that the Romanian communist dictatorship was taken down. It will be a surprise to everybody, even the people who start it. I expect that it will be much like the orgy of violence that erupted in India after independence in 1948 - too disorganized to be accurately described as genocide, at least at the beginning.

At some point, however, the armies of the nations in which these events will happen will get involved, in some way or another, and some of these armies may well be as fragmented as the civilian populations.

283 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:57:03pm

re: #274 JHW

I've been getting that feeling (11th hour paranoia) every morning when I listen to the drive-time radio. It's been about 8 days now.

-Food Riots in Haiti
-Stores limiting the amount of rice people can buy because they are shipping it back to their country of origin.
-Brazil halting the export of rice
-Gas Prices and Diesel Prices
-The Mortgage Crisis
-Death tolls in Chicago (gun violence, of course)

It just seems so strange that we are hearing about this, now, in such repetition and urgency -- IN AN ELECTION YEAR

284 NY Nana  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:57:06pm

re: #257 MandyManners

Thanks, Mandy. We go to see the nearly-20 month old one tommorow!

285 mjazzguitar  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:57:26pm

re: #220 USBeast

No sir, we are not facing the same threat. We do not have "Asian youths" burning cars in our streets. None of our cartoonists are in hiding. No Muslim apostates are pleading for government protection from the "Religion of Peace".

Europe is a battleground. Unless and until we recognize that fact, we put ourselves in the same position the deniers of Hitler's threat put us in in 1939.

Same threat, different manifestations thereof.

286 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:57:32pm
287 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:57:39pm

re: #279 ploome hineni

Righteous Rant, mine Ploomella!

AMEN

288 wolfie  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:58:03pm

re: #255 Sol Roth

Buenas noches a todos.

SR

Y a ti tambien! G'nite!

289 JHW  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:58:06pm

re: #280 Killgore Trout

Thanks, sometimes I wonder if I`m making sense. :)

290 gman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:58:38pm

re: #262 Sharmuta

First of all- the fascists are counting on that fear to sweep them into power.

Second- fear is not a legitimate reason to excuse fascism or give in to genocidal fantasies.

If they want to do something- they should start with enforcing their laws.

Well said.

291 TalkinKamel  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:58:47pm

re: #241 rorschach

Their homeland hasn't been stolen inch by inch; it's been given away, over a period of decades.

I'm sorry for Great Britain and Europe, but their current predicament is partly their own fault, for a number of reasons. Their residual anti-semetism has led them to demonize Israel, while appeasing Moslems. Their love of the welfare state, and unwillingness to reproduce themselves at even replacement level, has led to the current immigration mess. (Somebody's got to work, to keep those socialist states going); their inability to name the enemy, their naive belief in multiculturalism, their voting in corrupt and incompetent leaders such as Red Ken Livingston and George Galloway and their unwillingness to uphold their own laws when "youths" riot and torch cars has helped bring them to their current impasse. And re-adopting Nazism isn't going to help, it's just going to make things worse. I realize they're scared, but they really have to start making some hard decisions, to pull themselves out of their current mess, they have to do it on their own, and, sorry, facism isn't the answer.

292 Racer X  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:59:06pm

re: #260 Catttt

Wow! Found this awesome speech by Reagan . Still rings true today.

293 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:59:45pm

re: #275 rorschach

That's the problem. Average folks have no control over the powers that be. The people would enforce the laws if they only could.

Have elections been canceled in europe?

294 Catttt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 8:59:51pm

re: #238 ggt

I've still not been able to get thru Sir Thomas. I've read alot about him and his works --and other utopian/dystopia themes, but I found both his and Plato's Republic as boring as Beowulf. I do keep trying.

Heh. I was not able to finish Beowulf - I highly recommend the movie with (sigh) Gerard Butler as Beowulf.

Thomas Pynchon also stopped me cold.

295 USBeast  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:00:01pm

re: #272 gman

Europe is a battleground. Unless and until we recognize that fact, we put ourselves in the same position the deniers of Hitler's threat put us in in 1939.

Where have I heard this type of thinking before? Oh yeah. GoV and BJ

Gman, I'm familiar with "GoV" but not "BJ".

As to "this type of thinking" where am I wrong?

296 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:00:22pm
297 mich-again  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:00:45pm

re: #256 Ojoe

re: #259 realwest

But respect in public matters and from "the people" I think comes before love.

I say nothing comes before love. I have a real hard time always practicing the "treat your neighbor as yourself" advice, but that is the ideal.

298 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:01:00pm

re: #289 JHW

You always make sense IMO

/But that may be counted against you, lol

299 MandyManners  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:01:21pm

re: #284 NY Nana

Thanks, Mandy. We go to see the nearly-20 month old one tommorow!

Have fun snuggling!

300 Catttt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:01:47pm

re: #248 Killgore Trout

IXnay on the Arwinday!

You picked one of the two foreign languages I can read! /

301 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:01:55pm

re: #292 Racer X

144,00 updings
I love that clip

302 mjazzguitar  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:02:13pm

re: #239 SusanL

I'm not surprised the Germans banned Scientology, those people are crazy. I look at John Travolta and am just baffled.

I hope this fascist view does not find a legitimate voice. I have witnessed first hand how a crowd can be "whipped into a frenzy". When we were stationed in West Germany (1981) my ex-husband got us involved with Amway. We went to a recruiting program that was held in a large auditorium in Saarbrucken. The response of the crowd, the chanting, the adoration of the speakers....Wow at that moment, I understood how the right words from the right speaker, really can be dangerous.

Funny thing, even my (long list of negative, unflattering adjectives) ex-husband was taken aback. Needless to say, that was the end of the Amway.

Incitement. There are reasons that it is a crime.


The charismatics like to get all whipped up also.

303 JeremyR  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:02:18pm

Didn't bother to go to the grates. I'm assuming Charles posted his saner remarks, and the rest would be down hill.

304 freetoken  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:02:55pm

re: #291 TalkinKamel

[...], to pull themselves out of their current mess, they have to do it on their own, and, sorry, facism isn't the answer.

VDH: That Old Isolationist Tug

305 ploome hineni[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:03:07pm
306 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:03:29pm

re: #282 Fionn MacCumhaill

I find that unlikely. I think that Europe will start reconsidering its immigration policies and monitoring mosques and islamist groups more carefully. Foreign Imams and Suadi funded mosques will be controlled and limited. Muslims are already pariahs in much of the western world because of terrorism. I suspect that Western muslims will find a way to dissociate themselves from their radical cousins in the Middle East. I'll even go further and suggest that eventually this Westernized Enlightened version of Islam will be exported and replace Wahabism in the Magic Kingdom.

307 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:03:36pm

re: #294 Catttt

Is that the new one --it wasn't bad --it also wasn't good.

I'll never appreciate Beowulf.

Now, Gilgamesh --somehow, I liked that one.

308 TalkinKamel  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:03:57pm

#245 Kosh's Shadow

{Kosh!}

309 Catttt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:04:28pm

re: #292 Racer X

Wow! Found this awesome speech by Reagan . Still rings true today.

I love that speech. He was right on the money, and it does still ring true.

310 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:04:38pm

re: #302 mjazzguitar

The charismatics like to get all whipped up also.

I'm expecting The Obammunists will soon go dervish

311 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:04:49pm
312 rorschach  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:04:50pm
#291 TalkinKamel

All true...

I'm just saying, there's a lot of regular folks over there who have no control over the decisions made by their "betters". Hell, Britain became a welfare state in what, 1910 or so?

They've been manipulated by the media and lied to by the goverment for at least a century.

They're helpless and they're scared to death.

313 TalkinKamel  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:04:59pm

#305 Ploome Hineni

I doing fine, Ploome!

{Ploome!}

314 JHW  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:05:02pm

re: #298 BabbaZee

Counted against me in certain quarters I`d consider a badge of valor Babba.

315 Catttt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:05:40pm

re: #307 ggt

Is that the new one --it wasn't bad --it also wasn't good.

I'll never appreciate Beowulf.

Now, Gilgamesh --somehow, I liked that one.

Anything with Gerard Butler in it is good, imho. :D I even liked Dracula 2000.

316 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:05:43pm

re: #306 Killgore Trout

I suspect that Western muslims will find a way to dissociate themselves from their radical cousins in the Middle East. I'll even go further and suggest that eventually this Westernized Enlightened version of Islam will be exported and replace Wahabism in the Magic Kingdom.


I want what you're smoking.

I hereby confiscate it in the name of The Ganjahadeen
LOL

317 USBeast  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:06:07pm

re: #306 Killgore Trout

I find that unlikely. I think that Europe will start reconsidering its immigration policies and monitoring mosques and islamist groups more carefully. Foreign Imams and Suadi funded mosques will be controlled and limited. Muslims are already pariahs in much of the western world because of terrorism. I suspect that Western muslims will find a way to dissociate themselves from their radical cousins in the Middle East. I'll even go further and suggest that eventually this Westernized Enlightened version of Islam will be exported and replace Wahabism in the Magic Kingdom.

From your post to God's ear.

318 rockdad  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:06:25pm

re: #224 Racer X

Excellent question. What needs to change?

1. Immigration laws. Immigrants must adhere to the laws of the country they emigrate to.

2. Immigrants must adopt the customs of the new country - not the other way around.

3. Terrorism. Any group that advocates or supports terrorist groups must be severely punished. They have to understand that will not be tolerated. Period.

1. Implies a spine in Euro governments I don't see happening.
2. Can't be enforced.
3. See #1.

While we think in decades they think in centuries. The militant wings of Islam only serve to hamper the quiet change working within our democratic systems that will bring our traditional ways to an end. Not a nice thought. I'm really interested in real solutions, I don't have any, but by playing devil's advocate maybe someone more intelligent can enlighten me. Lizards have a knowledge bank greater than the sum of many nations.

319 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:07:12pm

re: #314 JHW

{JHW}

320 gman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:07:50pm

re: #295 USBeast

Gman, I'm familiar with "GoV" but not "BJ".

As to "this type of thinking" where am I wrong?

BJ or that which may not be spoken rhymes with "mussels colonel"

as for your line of reasoning, I will refer you to JHW #274 treatise on 11th hour fatalists.

Thanks JHW

321 NavyBrat  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:07:55pm

Wow, genocide is not the answer... to anything.

Isn't there enough of that in the world already.

Wow.

322 Racer X  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:08:11pm

re: #296 BabbaZee

Sure.

All your Fascists Vlaams Belangs to us.
~ Funkle Sam

Excellent video!

323 realwest  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:08:37pm

re: #291 TalkinKamel
Hello Fritzie! Spot on Post and your line " they have to do it on their own, and, sorry, facism isn't the answer." is the best of all of them.
It's really very simple - the Europeans are democracies; at some point (and unlike GOV or BJ I don't think that point is here just yet) they are going to have to choose, to borrow an American Expression from back in my day, "Guns or Butter".
If they make the wrong choice, then quite honestly it is THEIR problem and I don't want it to become our problem. Hard decisions and difficult choices are what separate societies that survive and those that don't.

324 J.S.  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:08:46pm

OT

I thought I heard today that Putin has declared that Eastern Orthodoxy is the "official" religion of Russia...(did I hear that correctly?) have been also reading about neo-nazi rallies in Russia and the rise (once again) of the far-right nationalists.

325 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:09:05pm

My first fantasy lust is still Vin. But this Jason Statham guy is garnering my attention.

326 TalkinKamel  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:09:29pm

#312 rorschach

Helpless and scared to death is no way to go through life. I'm sorry they've been lied to, and manipulated, but they have a choice: they can try educating themselves, and pulling themselves out of the mess they're in, or they can continue to be meekly lied to, and manipulated. Look, these aren't helpless infants; these are grown men and women, with (presumably) reasonably well-functioning minds. Surely, at least some, if not most of them, can aspire to something better than media-dominated welfare state. And they'll have to, if they want to help their country.

And, if they let themselves be manipulated into following Nazi groups, they'll become a clear and present danger, not people to be pitied.

327 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:09:39pm

re: #316 BabbaZee

I want what you're smoking.


Any experience with seedbanks in Demark?
/Just wondering

328 J.S.  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:10:10pm

re: #302 mjazzguitar

But have the Germans banned Scientology? (It's not allowed as a religion, but I don't think it's been outright banned....Or?)

329 wolfie  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:10:15pm

re: #306 Killgore Trout

I find that unlikely. I think that Europe will start reconsidering its immigration policies and monitoring mosques and islamist groups more carefully. Foreign Imams and Suadi funded mosques will be controlled and limited. Muslims are already pariahs in much of the western world because of terrorism. I suspect that Western muslims will find a way to dissociate themselves from their radical cousins in the Middle East. I'll even go further and suggest that eventually this Westernized Enlightened version of Islam will be exported and replace Wahabism in the Magic Kingdom.

Holy carp! The Trout is praying!

330 mich-again  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:10:22pm

re: #312 rorschach

They've been manipulated by the media and lied to by the goverment for at least a century.

They're helpless and they're scared to death.

And that brings up a good point. European politicians have done all they could do to squelch any criticism of the politically correct multi-culti agenda for so long that they helped create the ugly backlash brewing there now. Better to have had 100 small tremors than one big earthquake.

331 TalkinKamel  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:10:24pm

#323 realwest

{realwest!}

332 realwest  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:11:01pm

re: #297 mich-again
Well my friend I'm afraid we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't see how one can attain love without first having respect - self-respect being the most important, but respect for yourself for who you are. Without that I don't think you can have true love at all.

333 joecitizen  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:11:50pm

re: #327 Killgore Trout

Any experience with seedbanks in Demark?
/Just wondering


just make sure to have them sent to someones address ya don't like and then try to grab em outta the mailbox before they get home..I'm just sayin'

334 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:11:51pm
335 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:12:13pm

re: #327 Killgore Trout

Kilgore you magnificent Bastid!

336 stevieray  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:12:18pm

re: #293 Sharmuta

Have elections been canceled in europe?

Sadly, yes. The EU does what it wants with little or no input from the feckless masses. Individual nations cannot even set their own immigration policies anymore.

337 mich-again  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:12:33pm

re: #332 realwest

Without that I don't think you can have true love at all.

I agree that you can't love another until you love yourself.

338 stevieray  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:13:14pm

re: #306 Killgore Trout

I find that unlikely. I think that Europe will start reconsidering its immigration policies and monitoring mosques and islamist groups more carefully. Foreign Imams and Suadi funded mosques will be controlled and limited. Muslims are already pariahs in much of the western world because of terrorism. I suspect that Western muslims will find a way to dissociate themselves from their radical cousins in the Middle East. I'll even go further and suggest that eventually this Westernized Enlightened version of Islam will be exported and replace Wahabism in the Magic Kingdom.

Unlikely.

339 mjazzguitar  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:13:16pm

re: #283 ggt

I've been getting that feeling (11th hour paranoia) every morning when I listen to the drive-time radio. It's been about 8 days now.

-Food Riots in Haiti
-Stores limiting the amount of rice people can buy because they are shipping it back to their country of origin.
-Brazil halting the export of rice
-Gas Prices and Diesel Prices
-The Mortgage Crisis
-Death tolls in Chicago (gun violence, of course)

It just seems so strange that we are hearing about this, now, in such repetition and urgency -- IN AN ELECTION YEAR


Gee, change would be good right about now.

340 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:14:09pm

re: #332 realwest

I agree. Until one can see themselves as G-d sees them, one cannot love. That means seeing yourself as a child of G-d and respecting each and every other human as one of his children as well.

BTW, that doesn't, by any means, suggest the kumbaya crap that the moonbats seem to think they are espousing.

341 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:14:23pm
342 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:14:39pm

re: #317 USBeast

I think it will happen. If you look at religions throughout history they do have a fairly limited lifespan; 1000-3000 years often much less. Religions have to be able to deliver a certain amount of prosperity to believers or they perish. The Amish are still limping along but will they provide a prosperous future for believers? How much longer? Islam has failed, it will evolve or wade away.
/Otnay entioningmay Arwinday.

343 realwest  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:14:39pm

re: #304 freetoken
Well Lord knows I hate to disagree with VDH, but you can't "save people" who aren't willing to at least try to save themselves. And if the Euro's choose, voluntarily Butter over guns, they'll get no butter and lose their societies; I just don't see why WE need to help them if they choose Butter.

344 mich-again  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:14:45pm

Why can't everyone just leave Baron Bodissey alone so he can eat his Waffle schnitzel?

345 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:15:12pm
346 Ojoe  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:15:39pm

re: #306 Killgore Trout

Nice vision there Killgore

Good Night All.

347 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:16:15pm

re: #329 wolfie

Not really. see #3342

348 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:16:16pm

So
Kilgore is a cockeyed optimist.
Who knew?
All this time I thought he was a club footed luthier

lol

349 ploome hineni[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:16:56pm
350 Ojoe  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:17:04pm

re: #346 Ojoe

minus an "l"

351 ploome hineni[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:17:09pm
352 esch  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:17:17pm

re: #189 Ojoe

Very interesting. Thanks for the reference.

353 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:17:27pm

re: #344 mich-again

Why can't everyone just leave Baron Bodissey alone so he can eat his Waffle schnitzel?

HahahahhahhhAHHHHAAAAAAAAAA
[gasps]
AHA

354 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:17:31pm

re: #339 mjazzguitar

Hope then Change.

/gotta get the mantra wording just right.

355 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:17:44pm

re: #351 ploome hineni

I like apes

356 Racer X  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:17:45pm

I gotsta go.

*leaves Cosmik Debris in wake*

357 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:18:06pm

re: #348 BabbaZee

Kilgore is a cockeyed optimist.


I'm a Kurt Vonnegut optimist. We're often confused with pessimists because we're pissed that things don't always go as they should.

358 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:18:11pm

re: #340 ggt


BTW, that doesn't, by any means, suggest the kumbaya crap that the moonbats seem to think they are espousing.

Soft-left Multiculturalism isn't about helping people. It's about narcissism.

It feels so good to help other people by telling somebody how to think. Kinda fills the emptiness inside, you know? The emptiness where G-d, family, and pride in real achievement should be.

Why do actual work, when you can get that same rush from rebuilding other people's minds through the force of law and re-education?

359 ploome hineni[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:18:23pm
360 shiplord kirel  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:18:25pm

re: #24 Dr. Shalit

Charles -

Read the GoV post this morning. The Jihadi violence in Europe has been pinpricks in comparison to 9/11. I think the question raised is what would happen in Europe if the people suddenly felt fear and turned on their Muslim Populations. Judging by past history, the result would NOT be pretty.

-S-

Yep.
An ancient culture does not change that much in 60 years. The Crusader's mailed fist still lurks beneath the velvet glove of multi-culturalism. So, as Ralph Peters has suggested, will we someday have to send our ships into St. Nazaire and Rotterdam to save Muslim populations from wholesale massacre? I don't think it's impossible. Events like this would be a terrible, dizzying shock in a world awash in multi-cultural propaganda. Those who at least acknowledge the possibility will be prepared psychologically and will have an advantage in coping.

361 Catttt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:18:33pm

OT

Gerard Butler video (sex, a bit of nudity, a lot of kissing)

/I had to.

362 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:18:33pm

re: #342 Killgore Trout

I think there is one that has lasted quite a while.

hmmmmmm Babba, care to elaborate?

363 ploome hineni[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:18:42pm
364 stevieray  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:18:49pm

re: #342 Killgore Trout

The problem is its death-throes will kill millions of non-Muslims, and it could take centuries to die... all the while poisoning any nation it is in. The culture of the West could be destroyed before the beast is dead.

365 mich-again  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:18:59pm

re: #348 BabbaZee

Kilgore is a cockeyed optimist.

Better than a cockeyed optometrist.

366 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:19:26pm

re: #359 ploome hineni

I like that in a man!

367 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:19:37pm

re: #349 ploome hineni

censored.

368 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:19:53pm
369 wolfie  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:19:58pm

re: #344 mich-again

BTW,
I believe I speak for many when I commend you for resurrecting your old avatar for the duration of BHO's candidacy.

370 ploome hineni[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:20:06pm
371 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:20:17pm

re: #365 mich-again

bading bang boom!

372 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:20:34pm

re: #370 ploome hineni

Now now ploome

373 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:21:17pm

re: #362 ggt

I think there is one that has lasted quite a while.

hmmmmmm Babba, care to elaborate?

I don't take Kilgores bait LOL

374 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:21:17pm

re: #361 Catttt

Nah, not doing it. You can keep him all to yourself.

375 freetoken  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:21:42pm

re: #343 realwest

Suspect that VDH would say that their problems will become our problems, whether we like it or not, whether we try to withdraw or not.

Our intricate (and sometimes intimate) relationship (with Europe) can't be undone... or at least not very easily.

If ultra-nationalists or neo-fascists really do start influencing policy and everyday life in Europe the US will have to do something.

376 ploome hineni[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:22:02pm
377 abu jimbola  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:22:23pm

Having read the GoV post and the comments here my thoughts are that this is not dissimilar to a distopic future that is postulated by Wretchard in his essays on the "3 conjectures"

Belmont Club; 3 Conjectures

For those not familiar they are:

1. Terrorism has lowered the nuclear threshold
2. Attaining WMD's will destroy Islam
3. The War on Terror is the Golden Hour..the Final Chance.

To sum up the argument: If the so called WoT fails then the response to an Islamic terrorist attack must be disproportionate and there will be escalation.

"Under these circumstances, any American government would eventually be compelled by public desperation to finish the exchange by entering -1 x 10^9 in the final right hand column: total retaliatory extermination."

Now, no one has said that Wretchard has advocated genocide, and reading the essay in GoV, the point is much the same...if lesser measures fail; then the end game will result in the extermination of Islam. I see this essay as a plea for sanity before the mob takes over.

Some of the "lesser measures" have been brought out in this discussion, like conversion. I actually see this as a viable solution and have often thought (or hoped) that the mainstream churches could be much more active in this area. The actions of the Catholic Church with the public conversions give at least some hope.

378 LEGION  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:22:24pm

Lots of deer in my area also, the spouse and I have both been involved in deer accidents costing much time, money and stress, luckily no physical damage. But folks have been killed by them. Lefty loonies don't want to cull the herd with hunting, saying we should wait for some birth control pill for them to be developed. Pie in the sky thinking. Problem needs to be solved NOW. Same with the muslims in Europe, causing many problems, violent protesting, car burnings, assassinations, riots, ect .ect. So how is the problem to be solved? Violence against humans is not the solution- but immigration control is a piece of the puzzle. Holland is trying to tell all new immigrants via a movie when entering the country- to absorb into the culture, learn the language, understand what is going on and be sensitive to it. Otherwise don't bother immigrating here! Other countries should follow suit if they haven't already! Like when we go to Saudia Arabia- we know not to wear crosses or Stars of David or carry around Bibles or the Talmud and offend them- we are courteous-but they are blatantly going out of their way to confront us! They are moving all around the world to purposely seed and out breed the natives and use their own laws against them on orders. Sticky problems for the powers that be to ponder and effectively solve. It doesn't help that the leftists hinder our professionals who are trying to solve the problem in Iraq & Afghanistan who are advocating for withdrawal while unfairly bringing our few errors under the microscope and totally ignoring the enemies horrific barbaric acts! Insanity!

379 wolfie  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:22:30pm

re: #357 Killgore Trout

I'm a Kurt Vonnegut optimist. We're often confused with pessimists because we're pissed that things don't always go as they should.

Wouldn't that make you a pissimist?

380 profitsbeard  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:22:34pm

re: #55 Honorary Yooper

Even if they are muslims, and even if they are jihadis at that, they are still human beings. No one, and I strongly repeat, no one should ever have to go through another Holocaust ever again.

Never Again means never again should we let this happen to anyone, anywhere.

Too late.

China during the Maoist "Cultural Revultion".
Cambodia's "Killing Fields".
Rwanda.
Darfur.

381 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:22:51pm

re: #358 Pawn of the Oppressor

I forgot, there is a clinical name for that:

Co-Dependent - I'll work on you so I don't have to work on myself.

382 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:23:08pm

re: #362 ggt

I think there is one that has lasted quite a while.

Dravidianism has the world record.

383 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:23:10pm

re: #368 song_and_dance_man

I know I am not
lol

384 mich-again  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:23:19pm

re: #369 wolfie

Yeah just when I thought it was time for something new that came around. Ha.

385 gman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:23:19pm

re: #336 stevieray

Sadly, yes. The EU does what it wants with little or no input from the feckless masses. Individual nations cannot even set their own immigration policies anymore.

I smell generalization. The EU is composed of representatives from the various member nations' governing parties. These governing parties are allowed to govern because they were elected.

I don't buy into the "I am helpless" gambit. It sounds like welfare state brainwashing to me.

386 shiplord kirel  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:23:30pm

Decadent cultural pretensions aside, when Europeans start talking about mass killing, the rest of the world ignores them at its peril.

Reference VDH's Carnage and Culture.

387 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:23:33pm

re: #379 wolfie

Ha!

388 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:23:44pm

re: #379 wolfie

Wouldn't that make you a pissimist?

AAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA

389 Catttt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:23:51pm

re: #374 ggt

Nah, not doing it. You can keep him all to yourself.

I wish. More like me and a million other women.

390 mjazzguitar  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:23:55pm

re: #328 J.S.

But have the Germans banned Scientology? (It's not allowed as a religion, but I don't think it's been outright banned....Or?)

You were right earlier. I think they are trying to ban it.

391 SusanL  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:24:10pm

Vin!

Thanks! Save as,...:)

392 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:24:15pm

re: #373 BabbaZee

You are soooo wise.

393 ploome hineni[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:24:57pm
394 esch  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:25:26pm

re: #263 J.S.

I consider Scientology a cult, not a religion. (I'm actually sympathetic to German authorities who wish to ban Scientology -- Scientology is not recognized as a "religion" in Germany, but it's not "banned" -- not yet, anyway. Last year there were some politicians who were attempting to get it outright banned...but I don't believe their efforts have been successful. For over ten years the Germany authorities have been monitoring Scientology offices...)

I'm curious what their 'official banning' would mean exactly. Scientology is already effectively banned, what with restrictions on government jobs, buying property, required affidavits, etc.

If the government banned it, what would the penalties be? Prison, 'reeducation', deportation?

395 Promethea  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:25:28pm

re: #149 Dr. Shalit

"free" -

I am trying my hardest to point out the ABSURDITY of the PA Position. Tough love works sometimes - and for sure we have low diplomatic expectations of the Muslim Arab - we expect them to be absurd. Glad my post got you thinking.

-S-

I'm with you. I'm tired of our governmental officials treating the PA as lesser beings who need to be coddled. Let's respect the PAs and treat them the way they deserve, as human beings who should be held accountable for their actions.

That makes me (1) more militant and (2) more peaceful.

If the so-called Palestine is supposed to be Judenrein, well then Israel can be Muslimrein. As a former LLL, I don't automatically advocate this, but as a current warrior-wannabe, I say...let's treat the Palis as people who should learn to understand the consequences of messing with tough people (not wimps who want to be loved).

396 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:25:52pm

re: #392 ggt

...and such a wiseass!

397 realwest  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:26:44pm

re: #340 ggt "That means seeing yourself as a child of G-d and respecting each and every other human as one of his children as well." Well, yes and.......no. If one gives respect and doesn't receive it in return, I believe one has to demand that respect before offering that love again.
I am talking God's love and our ability to love each other as children of God. Don't respect me, don't expect me to respect or love you.
Sorry - I may not be completely clear on this but don't know how else to express it; to get love and to give love requires mutual respect. Without that respect there truly cannot be love.

Kumbayah my Lord,
Kumbaya,
Kumbaya my..................OMG did I type that out loud?!

398 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:27:13pm
399 slokat  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:27:32pm

I'm not a historian, just a reader of history - so I could be wrong.

It seems that Islam has been stopped by at least three things each time it tried to conquer Europe.

1) Walls
2) Length of Supply Lines
3) Stubbornness of the Infidels

#2 is a constant, but work needs to be done on Legal Walls (if not actual walls) & someone needs to provoke some stubbornness!

/IMHO

400 mich-again  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:27:53pm

re: #357 Killgore Trout

I'm a Kurt Vonnegut optimist.

Nice granfalloon !

401 NY Nana  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:28:27pm

re: #299 MandyManners

Have fun snuggling!

If he sits down for a nano-second! His latest is kissing on the lips....when they left after the first Seder, he kissed me, but boy, did the Binky he still had in his mouth feel weird! My son in law was carrying him, and he was LOL so hard that he nearly dropped him! And the little guy was smirking, so help me! He will climb up on my lap if he wants me to read to him, as besides trucks of all kinds, and diggers, books are his very favorite thing. Daughter is wasted, as he had no Gan since last Wednesday, so that the staff could get their own Passover preparations finished. He goes back Tuesday. I don't remember my own 4 being so busy, so help me!

We have to be up quite early, as we have some errands to run first, so I may actually say g'nite for real around 1-1:30 AM...a novelty.

402 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:29:02pm
403 wolfie  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:29:34pm

re: #382 Killgore Trout

Dravidianism has the world record.

This is undoubtedly because it has always secured for its adherents a most enviable prosperity !

404 mich-again  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:29:45pm

re: #394 esch

I'm curious what their 'official banning' would mean exactly.

Its not about banning, but rather State Sponsorship. The Germans subsidize "official" religions.

405 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:30:34pm

re: #399 slokat

My stubbornness alone probably equals the gall of one small village.

There are plenty more where I came from.

406 billhedrick  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:31:04pm

not even reading 99% of the comments here. these are kids that can't get laid (those at GOV) how f'ing hard is it to advocate the American way? I give the hell up.

407 esch  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:31:24pm

re: #404 mich-again

Its not about banning, but rather State Sponsorship. The Germans subsidize "official" religions.

Reminds me of what Bush was trying to do with his Faith-Based Initiatives. I think it's just a bad idea in general.

408 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:31:42pm

re: #389 Catttt

Did you see Black Book (Zwartboek)? It was subtitled and an awesome! movie if you haven't had a chance to see it. Incredible acting and too realistic for me in many ways. Anyway the lead man in that movie was rather nice.

409 Age Of Freedom  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:31:57pm

I think people in the Lizard army need to look at the bigger picture when falling on an extreme article like that in GoV.

Sure, it's known that a lot of the the anti-Jihad movements in Europe are part of the ultra-nationalist groups -- which is crucial to disapprove -- BUT, there are many people who have never been affiliated with these parties or their hidden agendas. Their extreme fear has completely blinded them from seeing the bad in allying with shady parties to face Jihad. They have completely lost all hope in the face of Islamization after being constantly pummeled with blind multi-culturalism that invites uncontrolled waves of Muslims into Europe.

Focusing on those folks, it is needless to say, they strongly target a populace that has strong convictions of a supremacist and violent religion, which doesn't necessarily renders them on par with the fascists of the 30's (who are also riding on the bandwagon of anti-jihad today). There is a light years difference between the Muslim minority in Europe to the Jews, who are themselves victims of muslim persecution in Europe.

Additionally, we ought to keep in mind that the most pro-western political stances Muslims generally hold in the west are equivalent to that of Ward Churchill and Noam Chomsky, while fiercely support the Palestinians and vindicate for the arab/muslim paradises at the best case scenarios. It's safe to claim that western Muslims are virtually counter-effective against Jihad.

All that, and after numerous anti-western protests in Europe where muslims have publicly called for the holocaust and the destruction of Europe, while no effective measures were ever done to eradicate Jihad, the wrongs in this article can easily come from a frustrated and bitter normal individual, and not necessarily from fascists bent on supremacy.

Although I strongly disagree with the tone of the article that ok's the cracks to open burst into full-on virulent violence, I understand their frustration at the same time, as their governments are utterly weak in the face of Jihad.

Feel free to comment back.

410 rorschach  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:32:22pm
#399 Slokat

Vlad the Impaler stopped them with one of the cruelest spectacles in the history of mankind. He "out-crueled" the muslims, and by God, it worked.

So, do ends justify the means?

411 realwest  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:32:34pm

re: #375 freetoken"If ultra-nationalists or neo-fascists really do start influencing policy and everyday life in Europe" - oops, my bad, I thought you were referring to Muslims.

412 billhedrick  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:32:48pm
So, do ends justify the means?

no

413 thgrant  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:32:51pm

It was an interesting exercise, for those who think the muslim threat an existential one.

On the cultural front, muslims seem to be given the benefit of the doubt, but there is a lot of push back. Islam will have to get used to criticism. The essay gives us all pause to think of what may have to happen if the criticism becomes some sort of causus belli for the muslim world.

Considering the lack of religious freedom in the muslim world the essay's prescription of what might have to be done in order to not live under sharia does give one pause. The tolerant society cannot tolerate the intolerant and right now the intolerant are the muslims.

414 Tom Kratman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:33:05pm

re: #132 Dianna

Oh, nonsense!

There are islamic enclaves in Europe. But in no European state is the muslim population more than 20%.

The situation is not irretrievable. It certainly does not require desperate and vile solutions.

The unstated but operative word there, Dianne, is 'yet.'

I've got mixed feelings over both the essay in GoV and the reaction here. I think it's fair to say that el Ingles, based on the "If I were king" section, does want ethnic cleansing of some sort to come about. Whether he daydreams about Zyclon B crystals being poured into airtight chambers full of Moslems I woudn't say definitively, at this point. I was a little intellectually offended that he listed only three options, completely skipping the preferable first: assimilation and secularization. Even if he'd mentioned it just to dismiss it as impractical and unattainable, given current Euro political realities, I'd have given his essay a little more credence and perhaps not just assumed he preferred genocide. He didn't and so I must assume that's his preference. Short version: Maybe he does dream about Zyklon B...

All that said, he's not wrong about the likelihood of considerable Muslim:Euro ethnic violence with religious / crusading / jihadi overtones, and in the not too distant future. I think he overstates the Euro willingness to defend themselves or eliminate the Muslims, even in their last extremity, however. Where is the stuff in Europe of which Einsatzgruppen are made? I don't see them.

An argument is not invalidated merely because the conclusions are vile. Does anyone here doubt that Europe's in serious trouble? Beyond a very problematic and vanishingly unlikely degree of assimilation, how are they to deal with Muslims? How do we expect the Muslims, as their power grows, to deal with the Euros?

One thing the essay didn't address, and it is a fantastic (not in a good way) logical oversight: How the Hell is Europe going to deal with its inverted age pyramid? The Muslims aren't there because the Euros are such sweethearts. They're there to do jobs Euros can't or won't. They _can't_ get rid of their Muslims.

From the foregoing I would suggest to you two possibilities. 1) Either the Euros keep their Muslims but, in effect, de facto if not de jure, enslave them to keep the social democratic welfare state going, or 2) the Muslims end up in charge. The Muslims won't deliberately drive the Euro's out, but I'd bet on de facto enslavement to keep the Islamic social democratic welfare state going.

Not very nice prospects, are they?

415 MandyManners  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:33:06pm

re: #401 NY Nana

Have fun!

I'm heading to bed, too.

Sweet dreams, Lizards!

416 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:34:18pm

re: #397 realwest

I don't know. I can love a person as a child of G-d, but I don't have to like them or get involved in their lives. I think I'm talking in more abstract terms. Perhaps love/respect are two sides of the same coin.

Is that what you've been saying all along?

417 slokat  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:34:23pm

re: #405 BabbaZee

I hear you & I'm the same, but the left coast of Cali is a long way from Europe, and it's not certain how far my stubbornness radiates.

418 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:35:20pm

re: #403 wolfie

This is undoubtedly because it has always secured for its adherents a most enviable prosperity !


No it's because like Hinduism and Buddhism it's a very adaptable and flexible belief system. Religion is a service industry.

419 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:35:22pm
420 LeePro  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:35:30pm

re: #397 realwest

{ { { RW } } }

Just got here, so behind on the conversation.

421 Promethea  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:36:18pm

re: #163 Dianna

Very simple.

No separate way of life. No sharia - not within your "communities" and not outside it.

And, if they push it far enough, if they try to deprive their sisters and daughters of their rights as citizens and free people, we will intervene to ban their practices that oppress their women. It's coercive, but I think it's acceptable on the grounds of the rights of citizens.

And, finally, if there is terrorism, their mosques will be monitored. I won't like it, but there it will be, and I will accept it. Just as I have no problem with the monitoring of "christian identity" churches, which have proven to be hotbeds of illegal activities.

Well stated.

422 billhedrick  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:36:56pm

As I walk through
This wicked world
Searchin' for light in the darkness of insanity.

I ask myself
Is all hope lost?
Is there only pain and hatred, and misery?

And each time I feel like this inside,
There's one thing I wanna know:
What's so funny 'bout peace love & understanding? Ohhhh
What's so funny 'bout peace love & understanding?

And as I walked on
Through troubled times
My spirit gets so downhearted sometimes
So where are the strong
And who are the trusted?
And where is the harmony?
Sweet harmony.

'Cause each time I feel it slippin' away, just makes me wanna cry.
What's so funny 'bout peace love & understanding? Ohhhh
What's so funny 'bout peace love & understanding?

So where are the strong?
And who are the trusted?
And where is the harmony?
Sweet harmony.

'Cause each time I feel it slippin' away, just makes me wanna cry.
What's so funny 'bout peace love & understanding? Ohhhh
What's so funny 'bout peace love & understanding? Ohhhh
What's so funny 'bout peace love & understanding?

423 esch  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:37:03pm

re: #414 Tom Kratman


From the foregoing I would suggest to you two possibilities. 1) Either the Euros keep their Muslims but, in effect, de facto if not de jure, enslave them to keep the social democratic welfare state going, or 2) the Muslims end up in charge. The Muslims won't deliberately drive the Euro's out, but I'd bet on de facto enslavement to keep the Islamic social democratic welfare state going.

This post sums up my feelings very well.

I think some form of slavery is inevitable. Heck, they're already most of the way there. There is no way Euros are going to give up their lifestyle, no matter how obvious the end results are made to them.

424 DesertSage  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:37:12pm

Is it safe? There are no thread hijackers in here, are there?

425 slokat  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:37:13pm

re: #410 rorschach

Cruelty is only one of the baser forms of stubbornness...

426 Catttt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:37:35pm

re: #408 ggt

Did you see Black Book (Zwartboek)? It was subtitled and an awesome! movie if you haven't had a chance to see it. Incredible acting and too realistic for me in many ways. Anyway the lead man in that movie was rather nice.

No, but I will now - thanks. :)

427 realwest  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:37:38pm

re: #402 BabbaZee Ah, thanks BABBA! Gonna have to save it for tomorrow though - tis best played at high volume and Mom is sleeping in the next room and she's not a fan of Cream! Go figure! Don't know where I went wrong raising her.

428 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:37:52pm

re: #397 realwest

As I read it again, I think that isn't right. Love has no demands. It's not a tit for tat bargain. You can only love and hope it's returned or not. Either way, it's the act of loving from which one benefits. Receiving is nice, but I that from G-d in spades.

I'd like to receive basic human respect from others, but I have to earn that -- some people aren't capable.

429 mich-again  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:38:44pm

re: #407 esch

Reminds me of what Bush was trying to do with his Faith-Based Initiatives. I think it's just a bad idea in general.

True that faith-based initiatives have the potential to be most problematic. Imagine if Jeremiah Wright was distributing government subsidies from TUCC. Yikes. But whats the option to using churches to dole out Government "charity"? I guess its unionized civil servants doing 1/10 the work at 10 times the price. I sort of understand what may have driven GWB to that initiative, but he would have been much better off trying to rid the Government Largess agencies of waste.

430 DesertSage  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:38:57pm

re: #427 realwest

Does she at least like cream soda?

431 esch  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:39:06pm

re: #424 DesertSage

Is it safe? There are no thread hijackers in here, are there?

I tried but no one's taking the bait. 8)

432 rorschach  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:39:31pm
#412 billhedrick
No.


Vlad saved Europe from centuries of muslim domination.

Just what would you do to save your family and homeland?

433 Catttt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:39:42pm

Let me not to the marriage of true minds
Admit impediments. Love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds,
Or bends with the remover to remove:
O no! it is an ever-fixed mark
That looks on tempests and is never shaken;
It is the star to every wandering bark,
Whose worth's unknown, although his height be taken.
Love's not Time's fool, though rosy lips and cheeks
Within his bending sickle's compass come:
Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks,
But bears it out even to the edge of doom.
If this be error and upon me proved,
I never writ, nor no man ever loved.

~William Shakespeare

434 USBeast  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:40:04pm

re: #342 Killgore Trout

I think it will happen. If you look at religions throughout history they do have a fairly limited lifespan; 1000-3000 years often much less. Religions have to be able to deliver a certain amount of prosperity to believers or they perish. The Amish are still limping along but will they provide a prosperous future for believers? How much longer? Islam has failed, it will evolve or wade away.
/Otnay entioningmay Arwinday.

Kilgore, I would love to believe that. I can't. Their holy book forbids them to fail. Their ignorance forbids them to learn. Their faith demands that they kill.

How am I supposed to believe that this confrontation will not end in blood and slaughter?

435 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:40:19pm

re: #410 rorschach

I think we had that discussion on the DDT a few halloween's ago. I think the consensus was NO --because he was cruel even to his own people. I argued --hey, he seemed to be the right person for the job at the time. and we all have benefited from it.

I don't know if I really believe that. I wasn't living in his part of the world when he was there. I guess they celebrate him now as a hero --in some parts.

So, who knows?

436 slokat  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:40:41pm

re: #424 DesertSage

...can't hijack a thread with only an ounce of liquid?
/

437 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:41:09pm
438 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:41:20pm

re: #424 DesertSage

Is it safe? There are no thread hijackers in here, are there?


I'm still here but the Euro Nazis are talking enslavement of Muslims now. I might have to recuse myself from this thread soon.

439 billhedrick  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:42:05pm

re: #436 slokat

...can't hijack a thread with only an ounce of liquid?
/

Oh, I've had 6 oz of cheep scotch and 8 oz of nice wine so I'm feeling brotherly

440 billhedrick  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:42:41pm

re: #438 Killgore Trout

I'm still here but the Euro Nazis are talking enslavement of Muslims now. I might have to recuse myself from this thread soon.

they still need a good lay.

441 wolfie  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:43:10pm

re: #342 Killgore Trout

I think it will happen. If you look at religions throughout history they do have a fairly limited lifespan; 1000-3000 years often much less. Religions have to be able to deliver a certain amount of prosperity to believers or they perish. The Amish are still limping along but will they provide a prosperous future for believers? How much longer? Islam has failed, it will evolve or wade away.
/Otnay entioningmay Arwinday.

re: #418 Killgore Trout

Geepers! You've changed your tune from prosperity to adaptability!
(I myself think the second one is much more in harmony with reality.)

442 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:43:40pm

re: #429 mich-again

How about reducing your tax by the amount you choose to contribute to a faith-based charity --outside your standard deduction -- even for those who file the short form?

443 ploome hineni[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:44:14pm
444 JHW  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:44:22pm

I`m going to post 3 articles here that I`ve posted several times on LGF, from the Asia Times.Read these and you`ll get a much different take from the usual doom and gloom. One of them concerns demographics, we`re always getting pounded into our heads Europe is done for, they`re not having babies, on and on. Read the eye-opener on what`s happening in the Islamic world. Another has to do with the failure that is manifest in the Islamic world, and how radical Islam is the response of a dying beast lashing out at that failure. Very, very different than the usual pessimism, and the graphs are real eye-openers.
Crisis of Faith in the Muslim World

Jihadis and Whores

The Demographics of Radical Islam

Apologies for not putting these in spin-off links, but I`d hate to see them overlooked considering how the same questions and comments show up. Read these and ponder who should be more worried about the future, the West or the Islamic World.

445 realwest  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:44:25pm

re: #416 ggt Yes, it is what I've been trying to say, without obvious success out here.

446 esch  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:44:29pm

re: #438 Killgore Trout

I'm still here but the Euro Nazis are talking enslavement of Muslims now. I might have to recuse myself from this thread soon.

Whoa.

I certainly hope I didn't imply that I thought it was a good thing. Slavery has always been and always will be an abomination. I'm merely trying to project off of current trends.

447 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:44:30pm

re: #409 Age Of Freedom

I think people in the Lizard army need to look at the bigger picture when falling on an extreme article like that in GoV.

I truly have

I do not fall on anything.

You yourself call it extreme there
and yet you go on to excuse it.


I understand their frustration at the same time, as their governments are utterly weak in the face of Jihad.


This kind of stuff can never get a pass
no matter what the excuse is.

Never.

I have empathy for their situation too.
Very much so.
We are closer than we think to this kind of crap ourselves. Europe is our object lesson.
And it's coming down fast.

The nice normal Germans in the thirties made the same sorts of excuses and rationalizations for the same kind of language.

It has to be stopped at the word level
or it will manifest physically.

448 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:45:37pm
449 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:45:38pm

re: #441 wolfie

I agree, I think adaptability is the key factor. Prosperity is relative to the culture and surroundings of the believers. It's all relative of course.

450 realwest  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:46:55pm

re: #420 LeePro Hey {Lee} If y'all just got here you are waaay behind, don't even try to catch up. Especially do not go to #397!

451 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:47:17pm
452 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:47:28pm

re: #422 billhedrick

[BLINK]

453 joecitizen  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:47:35pm

re: #432 rorschach

Vlad saved Europe from centuries of muslim domination.

Just what would you do to save your family and homeland?

what would be the worth of that family or homeland if they are stained with barbarism...it is true that liberty must often be re-bought with blood and sacrifice but what are we then if we jump into solutions of racism,anarchy,and genocide...reasonable people must solve these puzzles...and reasonable people must pay the inevitable cost..

454 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:47:53pm

re: #444 JHW

Put 'em in the spin-off links then pimp them (I blatantly do it --not great I know). That way they are there for future reference and you can tell how many people clicked them. I like to know if my posts are of any interest or not --that way I don't waste LGF space with stuff that isn't considered a contribution.

You can get the specific URL for your post by clicking the comment number --even if it is zero --Zombie taught us now.

455 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:48:44pm

TV. Lasagna. Wine. Salad. Pet cat. Sleep.
/G'nite, y'all

456 NY Nana  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:48:54pm

re: #378 LEGION

But did you have a bear like this wandering around in a populated area in NJ, going through peoples' back yards?

There is also a video...

It has become a serious problem.

457 mich-again  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:49:37pm

re: #442 ggt

How about reducing your tax by the amount you choose to contribute to a faith-based charity --outside your standard deduction -- even for those who file the short form?

That might be a good idea but there are waaaay too many scoundrels running churches who would abuse that.

458 wolfie  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:49:41pm

re: #442 ggt

How about reducing your tax by the amount you choose to contribute to a faith-based charity --outside your standard deduction -- even for those who file the short form?

I love that idea. That and vouchers allowing people to pick and choose charities they use. That way we the people (whether givers or receivers) choose.
I don't like govt picking and choosing which religious organizations "deserve"
subsidy. (In fact, I don't like it w/ non-religious NGOs.)

459 realwest  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:49:55pm

re: #428 ggt One of us (i.e., ME) is waay to tired to continue this. Whether one is talking about God's love or the love of one human being for another, respect for that other human being as a child of God is a MUST.
I also think that respect for that other human being is a prequisite for being loved in return, by that other human being.

461 rorschach  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:50:45pm
#53 joecitizen

re: #432 rorschach

Vlad saved Europe from centuries of muslim domination.

Just what would you do to save your family and homeland?

what would be the worth of that family or homeland if they are stained with barbarism...it is true that liberty must often be re-bought with blood and sacrifice but what are we then if we jump into solutions of racism,anarchy,and genocide...reasonable people must solve these puzzles...and reasonable people must pay the inevitable cost..

With all due respect, that is sheer gobbledegook.

462 realwest  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:50:52pm

re: #430 DesertSage
Hey my friend - yes, but not while she's sleeping! LOL!

463 JHW  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:51:10pm

re: #454 ggt

Good idea, I`m not sure of the etiquette on all this stuff, but those articles are so good I`ve posted them several tines. Islam is the one that should be in panic mode running scared, not the West. Thanks.

464 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:51:18pm

re: #457 mich-again

more than are abusing it now? They'd have to have a federal not-for-profit ID#.

465 billhedrick  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:51:28pm

re: #452 BabbaZee

[BLINK]

thanks!

466 MikeMelb  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:52:14pm

I wonder which group will be next if these psychos are allowed to wipe out Muslims.

I bet they start with J.

467 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:52:37pm

re: #465 billhedrick

I love EC

468 NY Nana  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:52:48pm

re: #415 MandyManners

Sweet dreams! I will send you a full report if I am awake enough! ;)

I am going to close down at 1:30 AM. The computer, that is!

469 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:52:53pm

re: #466 MikeMelb

mmmhmm

470 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:53:11pm

re: #461 rorschach

I agree, NEVER take the final option off the table. It's a most useful tool and the enemy will take you seriously. They don't want to die anymore than we do. (well, except the heretic zealots - who I sincerely believe are in the minority)

471 joecitizen  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:53:12pm

re: #461 rorschach

With all due respect, that is sheer gobbledegook.

then perhaps you will enlighten my gobblede with some of your gook?

472 esch  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:53:40pm

re: #457 mich-again

That might be a good idea but there are waaaay too many scoundrels running churches who would abuse that.

Scoundrels in government who I can not choose and will get my money whether I like it or not versus scoundrels in some churches who I can research and choose whether to give to.

Still sounds like a better deal.

473 jenv  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:53:42pm

re: #145 J.S.

On the continent (not the UK), there are specific laws (especially in Germany) which ban anything which would be expressing admiration for Hitler, etc. (no uniforms, no paraphenalia, no dressing up, no salutes, no swastika flags, none of this can be displayed in public, etc.) -- although, obviously, this isn't always enforced...and (apparently) there's quite a bit of "underground" activities...(particularly from the former East Germans).


Mein Kampf is extremely popular in Turkey, which is trying to get EU membership, but I doubt the EU would actually enforce those laws with respect to Turkey. As I recall there are many Turks in Germany, who no doubt share such sympathies with your aforementioned East Germans.

474 NY Nana  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:53:53pm

re: #455 Killgore Trout

G'night, Killgore.

475 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:53:57pm

re: #463 JHW

No one has ever called me on pimping my linky's --althought I always apologize before I do it.

476 Promethea  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:55:56pm

re: #282 Fionn MacCumhaill

My prediction is that the European situation will finally rupture in a completely unexpected way, sparked by something that starts small that finally pushes the original European populations past their limits, much in the way that the Romanian communist dictatorship was taken down. It will be a surprise to everybody, even the people who start it. I expect that it will be much like the orgy of violence that erupted in India after independence in 1948 - too disorganized to be accurately described as genocide, at least at the beginning.

At some point, however, the armies of the nations in which these events will happen will get involved, in some way or another, and some of these armies may well be as fragmented as the civilian populations.

Belmont Club recently talked about this kind of event as a "black swan event." I love that term and would like to spread it around (spread the "meme"). I personally have seen black swans, so I know that they exist. Black swans were originally thought to be impossible creatures like unicorns and griffins.

477 billhedrick  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:56:07pm

late to the thread and off to bed! much love to lizards! especially to BabbaZee!

478 realwest  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:56:27pm

Well y'all it's been grand - a very nice way to end what was otherwise a pain in the ass day. A LONG pain in the ass day!
I gotta get some sleep.
Goodnight to you all and I hope I get the chance to catch up with you down the road.

479 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:56:57pm
480 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:57:18pm

re: #475 ggt

I may just be the way I like to organize information (and with the addition of the tags to the left) Charles is kinda into it too, but I see the linkys as a great reference tool. (how's that for a run-on sentence).

And speaking of which, don't you think a "BOOK" category would be a nice addtion to the linkys categorys?

/I've been pimping this idea for a week or so and Charles is probably never going to do it because I keep pestering him.

report me anyway.

481 NY Nana  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:58:41pm

re: #424 DesertSage

Is it safe? There are no thread hijackers in here, are there?

Shhhh! So far, so good, on this thread. ;)

482 Thanos  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:58:53pm

Oh my, I see they are here, and Europe is doomed unless....


I see they've figured out that genocide isn't popular so now they are hoping to get slavery back.

/what slime.

That said, I'll hit the hay, g'nite lizards. Also please remain unaccepting of the "we are all automatically doomed in Europe" strawman. The biggest things Euros need to fear are their neighboring states -- same as it always was.

483 ethanxxx  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:59:16pm

Good morning and Goodnight to those leaving.

484 ggt  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 9:59:49pm

I gotta go to sleep too, Lizards!

Have a great night/evening all!

485 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:00:07pm

re: #477 billhedrick

Sleep well. Mwah!

I'm right behind ya

WLGF out


Darkness at the break of noon
Shadows even the silver spoon
The handmade blade, the child's balloon
Eclipses both the sun and moon
To understand you know too soon
There is no sense in trying.

Pointed threats, they bluff with scorn
Suicide remarks are torn
From the fool's gold mouthpiece
The hollow horn plays wasted words
Proves to warn
That he not busy being born
Is busy dying.

486 USBeast  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:00:14pm

re: #443 ploome hineni

what if that is the only 'means'

how do we stop it?

Good question. We stop it before it becomes the only "means".

I don't think it can be done in Europe. The EU "constitution" is a cruel joke.
It can be done in America. We must insist that the Constitution of the United States is the law of the land and there will be no law above it.

If we proclaim this and hold to it, we win.

487 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:00:16pm
488 ethanxxx  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:01:32pm

re: #487 song_and_dance_man

?

489 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:02:54pm
490 The Other Les  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:03:03pm

Oh frak! Another bridge closing.

[Link: www.johnweeks.com...]

I drove over it on Wednesday.

491 joecitizen  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:04:56pm

someday babygoodnight lizards..may all yer dreams be scaley..

492 JHW  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:06:57pm

re: #480 ggt

I really like the idea of a book category or occasional thread, A lot of us are trading recommendations back and forth a lot.

493 Jokey401  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:07:34pm

Ya know... I didnt actually take to much offense to that.

Later on, when Europe is Muslim and living under Sharia, and Christians, Jews, people of the book are forced to live in fear, pay a tax, die, or convert. People will be saying, maybe that wasnt such a bad idea after all.

Maybe now is not that time, but eventially Europe will be forced to make a choice. Fight or go out with a whimper.

494 USBeast  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:07:49pm

Looks like it's one of those nights.

"You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here."

495 Shelbourne  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:08:08pm

Goodmorning Lizards,

I posted in the thread on GoV under the nick Fairlane.

You can read my reasoning for posting at:
[Link: realfairlane.blogspot.com...]

and make up your own mind about me.

Shelbourne/Fairlane

496 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:09:34pm
497 Jokey401  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:11:31pm

Or stop with their ridiculous immigration policies, policy of appeasement, and utter refusal to look at the problem for what it truly is. That does not appear likely with the current policies of a willfully blind and utterly reckless government hell bent on multiculturalism at any and all costs.

I guess we will see.

498 Tom Kratman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:11:32pm

re: #438 Killgore Trout

I'm still here but the Euro Nazis are talking enslavement of Muslims now. I might have to recuse myself from this thread soon.

You know, that's an interesting perspective. Let's put that perspective in perspective, shall we:

1. If, in 1938, Winston Churchill (and no, to paraphrase Lloyd Bentson, I'm no Winston Churchill) had said, "Hitler's going to attack Poland eventually," then Churchill would have been a Nazi for talking about what the Nazis might do, yes?

2. If, following Pearl Harbor, any given, oh, say, utterly non-partisan African had said, "The Americans are going to punish Japan severely for that," that African would then be advocating the Tokyo Firebombing, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki, yes?

Now be serious, Kilgore. You really do understand the difference between saying "something is likely" and saying "something is good," don't you?

499 freetoken  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:12:36pm

re: #444 JHW

The topic of this blog entry though is the response of Europeans to Islamic growth in Europe... not whether the population bomb in parts of the Islamic world means crippling those countries.

In other words, the concern is that the cultural reactionaries in Europe will continue to turn more ugly as the Islamic ghettos grow and finally come to dominate certain European cities.

Yes, Iran and the Arabs have set themselves up for a real demographic headache... note though that Spengler skipped south Asian populations and central Asian countries (i.e., the non Arab and non Persian Islamic nations.)

500 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:13:04pm

re: #434 USBeast

Kilgore, I would love to believe that. I can't. Their holy book forbids them to fail. Their ignorance forbids them to learn. Their faith demands that they kill.

How am I supposed to believe that this confrontation will not end in blood and slaughter?

One possible way to avoid the blood and slaughter is for their funding to dry up. Unfortunately, their status as Oil Ticks is really getting in the way of that.

501 slokat  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:14:44pm

re: #496 song_and_dance_man

send in the clowns?

502 winston06  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:14:49pm

The future of Europe is either of these: 1- Total surrender to Islam i.e Islamicism of Europe. 2- Civil War just like what happened in Balkan in 1990s.

I am glad I live in North America. Europe is, unfortunately, a lost cause.

503 gman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:16:05pm

re: #496 song_and_dance_man

Yes, send in the clowns

Ahhhhh
But I couldn't leave without a message to our 11th hour fatalists.
Here is a message from your leader.

504 wolfie  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:16:25pm

re: #496 song_and_dance_man

Geepers! Did someone call me?

505 JHW  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:16:35pm

re: #499 freetoken

Good points.

506 RememberSekhmet?  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:16:53pm

I've said this before, but being Muslim in the US or much of anywhere in the West is more or less like being Catholic in Elizabethan England. As individuals, English Catholics and Western Muslims are often pretty OK folks just trying to get through life like everybody else.

Unfortunately, when two or more are gathered in the name, so to speak, the hand of ones enemies is far too often to be expected. It has become hard to tell acts of individual conscience from instruction from abroad. And in many ways, the enemy hides behind Muslims loyal to their adopted nations as much as he hides behind women and children closer to home.

Elizabeth I was faced with a large religious minority that also found itself quite often used by her foreign enemies. She refrained from hunting down and rooting out every Catholic in England, but forbid them from organizing, punished harshly those who actually were enemy agents, and English law forbid any Catholic to take the throne from then on. A century and a half later, a crumbling Spain and France were no match for a rapidly-rising Great Britain. Even so, Britain imported royalty from Hanover in order to keep the rightful Stuart heir from the throne, just to avoid crowning a Catholic.

In an era with a much greater respect for religious freedom it is hard to know what to do. But genocide is clearly NOT what to do.

507 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:17:10pm
508 Digger Dan  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:17:59pm

re: #45 SusanL

"Intern the target population" Do they honestly think that we would stand by and let them . . .

Are we not in the USA already interning whole villages of fringe Mormons for bad behavior? Have we not attacked and killed masses of non-conformists in the recent past? It's not much of a leap from here to there.

509 solomonpanting  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:18:07pm

Israel's UN ambassador calls Jimmy Carter 'a bigot'

Carter, a Nobel Peace Prize winner, "went to the region with soiled hands and came back with bloody hands after shaking the hand of Khaled Mashaal, the leader of Hamas," Ambassador Dan Gillerman told a luncheon briefing for reporters.

IDing Carter for what he is: It's not just for pundits anymore.

510 BabbaZee  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:18:25pm

re: #496 song_and_dance_man

Don't bother, they're here.

Goodnight

511 Jokey401  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:19:34pm

"I am glad I live in North America. Europe is, unfortunately, a lost cause."

Indeed. In 15 years or so maybe 20, Europeans will be saying. Why didnt we do more to stop this? As they get in line to pay there tax and feel themselves subdued.

512 ethanxxx  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:21:00pm

re: #510 BabbaZee

Goodnight............

513 wolfie  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:23:56pm

re: #508 Digger Dan

You ever been to the Grand Canyon?

We must be vigilant. We must not be complacent. We must not take our liberties for granted nor suppose that we are incapable of falling.
But we also must not hyperventilate.

514 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:24:04pm
515 esch  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:25:36pm

re: #508 Digger Dan

Are we not in the USA already interning whole villages of fringe Mormons for bad behavior? Have we not attacked and killed masses of non-conformists in the recent past? It's not much of a leap from here to there.

It's still a pretty big leap.

But lots of other cultures have tripped over the 'it can't happen HERE' myth. So it's not outside the realm of reason.

What would the Obama administration do to increase the lawlessness and self-righteousness of leftist groups? Plenty. Imagine someone like Bill Ayers as AG. It CAN happen here.

516 DistantThunder  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:25:37pm

Oh my gosh I forgot the rule about the A-------- subject and I posted a link to an old article. Sorry, Sorry,........

517 Jokey401  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:26:28pm

"Kill them before they think of killing us first?"

Thats just ridiculous. Not only are they thinking of killing us, some of them, at this moment,, are planning on it. Dont get me wrong I am completely against any kind of genocide. But something needs to be done. The world does not have the time for Muslims to come to there own understanding of "enlightenment" much like Christians and Jews did 700 years ago. Those peaceful Muslims that you speak of, wouldnt be to concerned with your feelings if the shoe was on the other foot.

518 jenv  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:31:44pm

Let's talk about something less than genocide. Police action, specifically. I maintain that stopping the arson, vandalism, and attacks on police in France, or anywhere else in Europe, requires actual violence, or a credible threat of violence, in order to enforce any effective edict telling France's Muslims to stop right now or else. Hand-wringing editorials in the newspapers lamenting what's happening don't seem to be working, nor are attempts to "foster integration" or "bridge the cultural gaps". "Give us what we want or we'll burn and riot" seems to be quite effective at getting Muslim immigrants whatever they want and preventing police from prosecuting their crimes.

Does anybody seriously doubt that if the French police actually started rounding up and arresting the rioters and arsonists, as I believe they should, they'd be in a shooting war within hours, or is it your collected wisdom that France must accept that those areas have been annexed by the Umma, are no longer part of France, and therefore anybody who escapes to them are effectively in a foreign country and not subject to French law? I don't think any country can survive or accept populations within it that do not obey its laws or accept its authority.

Bemoaning the alleged rise of "genocidal Nazi ideology" may make you feel good, but it's ultimately meaningless. Instead, how about explaining in specific detail what you would do in their shoes?

519 redc1c4  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:39:04pm

re: #518 jenv

so then, enforce the laws.

/duh

520 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:40:58pm
521 Tom Kratman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:46:03pm

re: #518 jenv

re: #518 jenv

Let's talk about something less than genocide. Police action, specifically. I maintain that stopping the arson, vandalism, and attacks on police in France, or anywhere else in Europe, requires actual violence, or a credible threat of violence, in order to enforce any effective edict telling France's Muslims to stop right now or else. Hand-wringing editorials in the newspapers lamenting what's happening don't seem to be working, nor are attempts to "foster integration" or "bridge the cultural gaps". "Give us what we want or we'll burn and riot" seems to be quite effective at getting Muslim immigrants whatever they want and preventing police from prosecuting their crimes.

Does anybody seriously doubt that if the French police actually started rounding up and arresting the rioters and arsonists, as I believe they should, they'd be in a shooting war within hours, or is it your collected wisdom that France must accept that those areas have been annexed by the Umma, are no longer part of France, and therefore anybody who escapes to them are effectively in a foreign country and not subject to French law? I don't think any country can survive or accept populations within it that do not obey its laws or accept its authority.

Bemoaning the alleged rise of "genocidal Nazi ideology" may make you feel good, but it's ultimately meaningless. Instead, how about explaining in specific detail what you would do in their shoes?

It would be kind of interesting to know just how much of an arsenal the typical Muslim dominated banlieu has right about now, wouldn't it?

I suspect that, with perhaps 65 combat battalions, not all of them suitable or, if suitable, returnable to France (perhaps 30,000 actual combatant soldiers), the French armed forces are probably already incapable of clearing out more than a handful of banlieus, should the moslems resist strongly.

On the other hand, the Muslims are normally fairly rotten in a collective fight and, bad press and propaganda aside, the French are pretty good, so maybe.

522 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:46:34pm
523 Jokey401  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:48:00pm

"Bemoaning the alleged rise of "genocidal Nazi ideology" may make you feel good, but it's ultimately meaningless. Instead, how about explaining in specific detail what you would do in their shoes?"

Word.

524 RTLM  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:49:17pm

I think the Iraqi Army has a good start and is doing an excellent job in what needs to be done. In Basra and Sadr City.

525 savage_nation[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:51:00pm
526 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:51:11pm
527 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:53:15pm
528 bosforus  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:53:16pm

re: #525 savage_nation

well this is a hell of a thread to come home to....

tell me about it. i jump into a thread at midnight not expecting to see this. i'm not complaining, i'm just sayin.

529 savage_nation[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:54:42pm
530 ethanxxx  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:54:54pm

re: #525 savage_nation

I came here about an hour ago looking for a drinking thread. I've done nothing but read... It is interesting though... Please, Continue.

531 Ilan Toren  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:56:10pm

I think that we have a moral imperative to declare that we would welcome Moslems willing to adjust to our society's norms as equal citizens. Sometimes I have to wonder though if we realize that means accepting differences in dress and trying to accommodate their dietary requirements and holiday schedule where possible. Just as I wouldn't want, and I had these problems as a student, to be made to chose between taking an exam under less than ideal conditions and my religious obligations. Once I had to take a test and then walk 60 min home as the test went to right before the Passover seder. I think that was unfair and I wouldn't want any student Jewish, Moslem or anything else to face a similar situation.

532 savage_nation[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:56:22pm
533 bosforus  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:58:02pm

re: #532 savage_nation

I'm doing my laundry till I have to get up to Clearfield. They dont open till 7am

Clearfield, UT?

534 Jokey401  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 10:58:49pm

"We are not like the Islamists. We don't teach our 12 year old sons, in the name of Allah (spit) to slit the throat of offenders of Islamic rule."

Of coarse not. That is my point. Please, dont get me wrong. I dont advocate the "rounding up of muslims" and all of that nonsense. H0wever, stifling the debate to make ourselves feel good is just as nonsensical as thinking that with enough appeasement, ignorance, and willfull blindness, that the Muslim problem will go away. It wont. The only way to come up with reasonable solutions is discussion.

"Something needs to be done, I got a hankering to what that subscribes."

If it comes down to it. Absolutely. Our society is absolutely better than Islamic society. No doubt.

"And, BTW I never said Muslims were peaceful."

To me it sounds like you are perfectly fine and willing to live with the occassional train bomb, honor killing, tax dollars spent on foot baths, olice officers, Muslim only prayer rooms and swim time, God forbid you should print a cartoon of Mohammad;

I'm not saying I have a solution, I dont. However brainstorming on the matter is not a bad idea.

535 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:02:19pm
536 redc1c4  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:03:39pm

re: #521 Tom Kratman

re: #518 jenv

It would be kind of interesting to know just how much of an arsenal the typical Muslim dominated banlieu has right about now, wouldn't it?

I suspect that, with perhaps 65 combat battalions, not all of them suitable or, if suitable, returnable to France (perhaps 30,000 actual combatant soldiers), the French armed forces are probably already incapable of clearing out more than a handful of banlieus, should the moslems resist strongly.

On the other hand, the Muslims are normally fairly rotten in a collective fight and, bad press and propaganda aside, the French are pretty good, so maybe.

clearing out untrained, poorly equipped and completely unorganized fighters from a city area would be simple for any trained military. casualty free? no. outcome in doubt? no.

send in the Legion and stand back.

537 savage_nation[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:04:55pm
538 redc1c4  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:05:16pm

re: #530 ethanxxx

I came here about an hour ago looking for a drinking thread. I've done nothing but read... It is interesting though... Please, Continue.

"CHANGE!"

/me continues his drinking, already in progress %-)

539 Hengineer  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:05:22pm

That's probably the lowest scoring open thread here
(previous)

hi!

540 bosforus  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:08:52pm

Cool. Never heard of it. And that's saying something since my job makes me drive around all of Utah. Not more than 5 minutes ago I finished a blog entry on my latest drive down near Nephi. I know you're always driving through here so you might appreciate it. Just click my nic. How'd the snow treat you today?

541 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:08:54pm

Now that it's late enough in the thread; Darwin has nothing to do with it. Revising history only helps it to repeat itself. We're looking at another genocide in Europe, internment camps, confiscation of property that has nothing to do with the theory of evolution. Are future creationists going to blame this on Darwin or stem cell research? Seriously folks, railing against Reason and Enlightenment is a lost cause. Give it up.

542 Tom Kratman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:09:04pm

re: #531 Ilan Toren

I think that we have a moral imperative to declare that we would welcome Moslems willing to adjust to our society's norms as equal citizens. Sometimes I have to wonder though if we realize that means accepting differences in dress and trying to accommodate their dietary requirements and holiday schedule where possible. Just as I wouldn't want, and I had these problems as a student, to be made to chose between taking an exam under less than ideal conditions and my religious obligations. Once I had to take a test and then walk 60 min home as the test went to right before the Passover seder. I think that was unfair and I wouldn't want any student Jewish, Moslem or anything else to face a similar situation.

We could say it but it's not really that simple. Our concept of citizenship is national, with a very strong "forsaking all others" component to it. Now that component has been weakened for some decades for various, mostly illegitimate, reasons, but it's still, generally speaking, our concept of citizenship.

Islam has basic, probably insurmountable, problems with that. Making laws ourselves, often in opposition to divine mandates, is simply unIslamic. In practice, it is almost as if, maybe exactly as if, someone converting to Islam has openly renounced citizenship. Conversely, a Moslem who has immigrated into the United States and really _become_ an American - obeyed and accepted our laws, voted in our elections - has often, even if he doesn't think of it that way or want to admit it, at least partially renounced his religion.

543 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:09:32pm
544 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:11:02pm

I've noticed the Gulf coast Pundit folks don't post over at GoV anymore. Is GCP even active anymore?

545 savage_nation[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:11:44pm
546 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:14:47pm
547 savage_nation[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:14:53pm
548 bosforus  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:16:21pm

re: #545 savage_nation

No snow today! The Goracle helped me out, the dear.

Lucky bastage. When I left for work it was somewhat cold but not enough for a jacket. After lunch I walked from my car to my building as snow fell. Guess I should've checked a weather report.

549 savage_nation[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:17:35pm
550 JHW  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:18:01pm

re: #539 Hengineer

I was looking at your profile and remembered you talking about your work before, what kind of ship are you on?I went overseas on a USNS troopship, the Gen. Sultan, in late 1966, there were 2 of our battalions on it. I dont even know if the USNS has troopships anymore.

551 bosforus  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:18:02pm

re: #547 savage_nation

Clearfield I've heard of, I've got a brother who live there. Honeywell on the other hand. Is that in Utah?

552 Tom Kratman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:18:53pm

re: #536 redc1c4

clearing out untrained, poorly equipped and completely unorganized fighters from a city area would be simple for any trained military. casualty free? no. outcome in doubt? no.

send in the Legion and stand back.

There are some peculiarities that make typical Moslem armies rotten. It's not at all clear to me that every one of those peculiarities are present in the banlieus. For one thing, and it's important, the kind of amoral familism and nepotism that plagues Muslim armies may not be there when the entire clan of blood relations isn't present. In addition, a fairly large percentage of the French army (to include, I think, the Legion) now is Muslim. This would have two predictable effects: 1) there would be _some_ trained soldiers in the banlieus for the rabble to rally around and 2) the French army might just be unreliable. So I'd accept "casualty free? no. Issue in doubt? no," but only for a certain number of issues contested. At some point casualties and defections might prohibit carrying on. As to whether there are more banlieus than they could handle before that happened, I frankly don't know and, unless I decide to write a novel about it, won't check into too deeply.

553 rawmuse  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:19:57pm

I am getting here pretty late, but in my experience, the Europeans are thoroughly pacified, mostly by the efforts of the US to make sure that they were pacified post WWII. There is no way that they will be anything other than perfect dhimmis for the Muslim demographic change that is coming soon. Of European men, possibly one in a hundred is even capable of wielding a weapon. This could change, of course, but I don't presently give them long odds to do so. Even so, they are failing to reproduce themselves at the rate of basic replacement, so the matter is moot.

Christian Europe will fall, and soon.

554 RTLM  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:20:55pm

What is "banlieus"?

Honest question

555 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:21:13pm
556 bosforus  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:21:47pm

re: #547 savage_nation

Oh my, are you going to Honeywell, as in, the engineers for a delivery? I feel kind of stupid now. But hey, it's 12:30, I'm allowed to.

557 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:22:18pm

re: #554 RTLM

Suburbs.

Just lurking and reading.

558 savage_nation[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:22:25pm
559 savage_nation[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:22:37pm
560 redc1c4  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:23:15pm

OT, and may have been posted here in another thread, but it references beer and boobs:

“We in Denmark cannot figure out why you are even bothering to hold an election."
“On one side, you have a b*tch who is a lawyer, married to a disbarred lawyer, and a lawyer who is married to a b*tch who is a lawyer."

“On the other side, you have a true war hero married to a woman with a huge chest who owns a beer distributorship."

“Is there a contest here?”

561 Tom Kratman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:24:15pm

re: #554 RTLM

What is "banlieus"?

Honest question

The housing project/suburbs, that are really fairly miserable ghettos, the French put up outside their major cities to house immigrant workers.

562 Render  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:24:19pm

re: #554 RTLM

French suburbs around most of the major cities noted for their large and somewhat unassimilated populations - majority Muslim.

TAKING
NOTES,
R

563 savage_nation[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:26:08pm
564 Fenboy  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:26:16pm

Back when the LGF-GoV thing first began, when Fjordman still posted here, I remember him getting into an argument with another poster (I don't remember who). The essence was that Fjordman didn't believe Islam was redeemable, and (in contrast to the person he was arguing with) didn't think it was even worth it to try. This essay seems to be the next logical step in that particular thought process.

"I have no difficulty imagining a scenario in which U.S. Navy ships are at anchor and U.S. Marines have gone ashore at Brest, Bremerhaven or Bari to guarantee the safe evacuation of Europe's Muslims."
Ralph Peters

565 bosforus  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:26:43pm

re: #559 savage_nation

yep!

Well, it's official then, I need to get some sleep. Take it easy. See ya back here tomorrow most likely.

566 savage_nation[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:27:01pm
567 Jokey401  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:28:25pm

re: #553 rawmuse

Christian Europe will fall, and soon.

According to some, thats perfectly fine, so long as they dont think of things as distasteful and brutish as fighting back by any means neccesary.

The Union Jack will soon be the Green Crescent. How very sad.

568 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:28:49pm

re: #546 song_and_dance_man

Uhhh....Are there questions?

569 redc1c4  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:29:58pm
570 rawmuse  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:30:07pm

re: #567 Jokey401

You can't coerce people to act in their own self interest. They either do it, or they do not, IMHO. Not every person has well defined instincts for self preservation.

571 Jokey401  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:33:33pm

re: #570 rawmuse

Yep, and I don't get it. Anyway, I am out. Peace.

572 WrathofG-d  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:36:53pm
573 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:37:59pm

re: #572 WrathofG-d

How could someone with such nice hair be so angry?

574 JHW  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:38:26pm

re: #569 redc1c4

The only thing I got out of that confirmed what Tom Kratman said, the French military is10-20% Muslim.I have a link to the French Ministry of Defense, in English, here if anyone feels like digging a bit more.
French Ministry of Defense

575 slokat  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:40:15pm

re: #573 Killgore Trout

The roots of his anger must be deep...

576 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:40:20pm
577 wolfie  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:40:48pm

re: #542 Tom Kratman

Well, the problem is that Islam, to put it in Western terms, is simultaneously a religion and a political ideology. It doesn't embody the concept of the "two swords" of Church and State that has characterized Christianity from the very beginning.
The Jews of course have the concept as well, developed fully through their many
experiences of being held captive and/or without any political power.
Today Muslims in the West are presented with an opportunity, like it or not, to
develop the concept themselves. But when I look at the Koran and hadith, I'm not too hopeful about it.

578 WrathofG-d  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:40:58pm

re: #573 Killgore Trout

this guy shows up everywhere!

579 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:43:48pm

re: #576 song_and_dance_man

The more I think about this new revision of the Holocaust the more pissed I get. Also the new idea that Buchanon is peddling about WWII not being worth the effort is pissing me off too. We are rapidly losing sight of history.

580 Render  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:45:15pm

The regular professional all-volunteer French army has around 134,000 soldiers, including the French Marines and the 9 or so regiments of the French Foreign Legion - At least five of those Foreign Legion regiments are based within metropolitan France. The French National Police have another 150,000 uniformed officers.

More than enough to subdue any uprising within France itself.

Contrary to the modern jokes, the French military is actually quite good and has been for some time, as quite a few 80's era US Marines will attest. The current French Special Forces units are among the best in the world and have proven themselves alongside of US and other allied commando units in Afghanistan and other theaters of this world war.

They are still widely feared and much respected amongst most of their former colonies.

NEXT,
R

581 Tom Kratman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:46:28pm

re: #577 wolfie

I addressed this is a book once. Recently, too. ;)

Some will. Some won't. My translator in the first Gulf War was a ex-pat Kuwaiti, selling Maseratis in California, who wanted nothing in life so much as to just stop being an Arab and become an American. The problem there is that the multi-culti model fails to encourage that. No, that's not strong enough. It strongly _dis_courages that.

582 wolfie  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:52:11pm

re: #553 rawmuse

It doesn't look good, does it?
There are two things about modern Europe in particular that I say are BAD SIGNS. And they are strange ones for a mild-mannered, middle-aged lady like me to bring up.
One is the categorical abolition of the death penalty. A society that categorically takes the death penalty off the table is a society that declares it will not defend itself. (Just one thought: if the state is too holy to execute even the most anti-social, vile offender, by what right can it ask a soldier to kill?)
The other is the 2nd amendment. Call me medieval....well, I am a medievalist!....but the right to bear arms is the signal mark of a free man. It was so 1000 years ago and it is so today.

583 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:53:13pm
584 Tom Kratman  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:53:27pm

re: #580 Render

Yes, they are good. I've little patience for the usual French bashing. Note: they did better in Indochina, over a wider area, with less, for longer, than we did.

As I said, I count about 65 battalions - some of them overseas and unavailable - which, in Euro terms, is huge these days. I've little doubt any five of those battalions, even if their Muslims defect, can take out any conceivable level of resistance in any banlieu with a population of, say, 100,000. That would still leave a bunch of banlieus and casualties might not be trivial. It's a calculation, though, not simply a given, that that's enough to take them all. I'm not sure it is. And those unavailable battalions really are unavailable. Myths to the side, the French never gave up their empire. Some of those battalions are colonial troops occupying colonies where they must stay.

585 JHW  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:55:33pm

re: #580 Render

Yeah, I think they get a bad rap with all the stale surrender jokes. In 1940 I cant think of anyone who might have done better, a year later in about the same amount of time the Germans were right outside Moscow and Red Army soldiers surrendered in the millions, nobody would even think about white flag and dropped rifles jokes. WW1 should have forever put an end to the coward stuff. Anyway I agree with what you`re saying on this.

586 Age Of Freedom  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:55:40pm

re: #447 BabbaZee

This kind of stuff can never get a pass
no matter what the excuse is.

Never.

I have empathy for their situation too.
Very much so.
We are closer than we think to this kind of crap ourselves. Europe is our object lesson.
And it's coming down fast.

The nice normal Germans in the thirties made the same sorts of excuses and rationalizations for the same kind of language.

It has to be stopped at the word level
or it will manifest physically.

As an offspring to holocaust survivors, I know more than enough about crossing the lines, virtually first hand. I would never remotely approve these movements they support.

When I said people "fall" on this extreme article, it may look like I'm defending it; totally not true. I clearly stated, at least a couple of times, that I'm NOT in anyway sympathetic or supportive of what they said in that article and/or who they support. I specifically focused those who lost all hope and support these shady parties sheerly due to extreme fear that nothing can stop Islamization -- and not because they were indoctrinated into white supremacy (mind you, Islamization is unidentified Nazism).

I am completely opposing their affiliation with these groups, however, I understand their frustration; imagine having your government run by people like Ward Churchill or Noam Chomsky, who have been excessively pro-arab, and blindly enabling their ideology and propaganda for generations.

With no checks and balances, people cross the lines. YES, it's the WORST, and I'm glad Charles and others in the blogsphere keep their ground firm against those who lose control. Like I said, it's crucial to disapprove and absolutely condemn any associations with shady ultra-nationalist groups.

It's just kind of weird we read all the endless streams of horrible atrocities exposing Islam on LGF that reads extra danger, and suddenly everyone gets an aversion to what bitter europeans are saying about themselves against Muslims. Say David Duke was also anti-Jihad, would we give a rats ass about it?

587 wolfie  Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:58:20pm

re: #579 Killgore Trout

If you mean the connection between evolutionary philosophies and the Holocaust, there is nothing "revisionary" about it. To say that the popularity of evolutionary ideas had no influence on the Nazis (and others) is ridiculous.
To blame Darwin for the Nazis, on the other hand, would be as silly as blaming Wagner or Nietzsche. Probably even sillier.

588 wolfie  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:00:31am

re: #581 Tom Kratman

Yep. THAT is the main problem. The moonbat, PC crowd hates the West and therefore sees no value in assimilation.

589 oslogin  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:01:57am

I´ve got only one comment: This is what the 1920s in Germany, Austria and a number of other European countries looked like.

590 wolfie  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:02:26am

re: #585 JHW

You guys are right, but I, for one, enjoy Fwench suwender jokes so much that I refuse to give them up!

591 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:03:09am
592 Jokey401  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:03:12am

" But when I look at the Koran and hadith, I'm not too hopeful about it."

uh uh... dont forget Sira. Sira validates everything written in the other 2 and vice versa.

593 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:05:16am
594 RTLM  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:06:21am

The French do possess an excellent modern Ground Army. I save my harsh criticism for the French public and ruling elite. (save Sarkozy)

But their Air Force lacks readiness.

LINK - par le vu france?

595 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:06:30am

re: #567 Jokey401

According to some, thats perfectly fine, so long as they dont think of things as distasteful and brutish as fighting back by any means neccesary.

Yeah- it's unfortunate genocide is so distasteful, huh?

596 Jokey401  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:06:33am

re: #593 song_and_dance_man

I was being facitious.

597 wolfie  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:07:49am

re: #589 oslogin

I%uFFFDve got only one comment: This is what the 1920s in Germany, Austria and a number of other European countries looked like.

There are similarities. We can learn from the past, if we want to.
One thing we can learn (among many others) is that, no matter how bleak things look, the brown/red/black shirts will only make it worse.

598 wolfie  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:08:54am

re: #592 Jokey401

" But when I look at the Koran and hadith, I'm not too hopeful about it."

uh uh... dont forget Sira. Sira validates everything written in the other 2 and vice versa.

And in some cases highlights it. Good point! :)

599 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:11:11am
600 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:12:52am

re: #592 Jokey401

ah yes.... forgotten but not gone.

/you were leaving, remember?

601 American Jewess In Jerusalem  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:13:33am

re: #518 jenv

Bravo, JenV. I'm reading this thread and shaking my head. WTH?

I have my own reasons for not wanting to support White Supremicists (I am not, after all, suicidal), but I agree with Age of Freedom's statement that many of the people who have joined GOV are not bigots and fascists, but are genuinely and legitimately afraid of what is happening to their countries and they see NO ONE ELSE, least of all their governments, taking any protective action. When the White Supremicists are the ONLY ONES speaking out and taking action against the Islamic takeover of Europe (and the world), isn't that pretty sad? Maybe instead of simply castigating the GOV, we could think of ways to start our own political action organizations to defend ourselves and our countries in ways that comply with our personal ethics -- to the extent that is possible. In war, innocent people die no matter how fervently people with morals try to or wish to prevent it.

I also haven't seen anyone here really put forward a strategy for dealing with the Muslims. Force them to integrate? What? What does that even mean? Not allow them to live in enclaves. What? If you were a European, would you really want these barbarians, like the ones who tortured Ilan Halimi and all the others who heard what was going on and did NOTHING, living in your neighborhood? Are you going to monitor their schools and their mosques? Fine, they will just take both further underground, and it will be continued, business as usual. You cannot control people's minds.

Mass deportation is not a sane immigration policy? Really? Then WHAT IS? Because THEY ARE ALREADY HERE, and you cannot force them to change their mindset as a solution -- remember, western democracies are all about FREEDOM of belief of the individual.

This is a quagmire and as high-minded as we all may want to be, I agree with everyone who says that the reality is this is going to get ugly and bloody and I predict a civil war; and as with all conflicts, innocents will be killed. That's just the way it is. The leaders have been such pussies up to this point that the barbarians are completely emboldened, such that any move, no matter how slight or gentle, to rein them in will result in riotous outrage. I really think the time is past for dealing with this problem in subtle ways.

Lastly, I am offended by any "victim" comparison of Jews to Muslims -- Jews in Europe prior to WWII were productive, law-abiding, patriotic citizens. Gentile hatred of Jews was completely and totally unwarranted -- it was all about jealousy. Conversely, far too many Muslims in Europe now are none of these things but are, rather, hostile foreign nationals committing the bulk of violent crimes, sucking the welfare system dry, and plotting their takeover. They have nothing to offer their resident countries. If they are hated and feared, there is a REASON for it. Of course not all of them are guilty, but too many of them are.

If you allow the enemy to use your own ethical sensibility as a weapon against you, then you are a fool. Bye-bye.

602 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:13:35am

re: #583 song_and_dance_man

Does survival of the fittest fit with the ideal of Islam dominating the world and does genocide conform to natural selection?

Is this evolution?


Interesting question and interestingly phrased. I'll vote "no" because of the Prisoner's Dilemma. It's a little complicated but let me rephrase this in an "evolutionary" sense. Suppose you're a caveman and you live opposite another caveman. There's a berry bush between you. Here are your options....
1) You can share the berries
2) He can steal some berries and throw rock at you the rest of the day to keep you from getting any.
3) You can steal the berries and throw rocks at him all day to keep him from getting any berries.

In a repeated scenario your best bet is to do what he did to you last round. If he screwed you, you screw him. If he shares, you share. It's statistically proven to be the winning strategy. The trick is to play out the scenario enough times that both sides share because it's the winning strategy for everybody.

603 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:15:29am

re: #594 RTLM

The French do possess an excellent modern Ground Army. I save my harsh criticism for the French public and ruling elite. (save Sarkozy)

But their Air Force lacks readiness.

LINK - par le vu france?

their readiness ratio sucks, despite assurances from their MOD.

/nutshell

604 Jokey401  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:18:41am

re: #595 Sharmuta

re: #595 Sharmuta

Yeah- it's unfortunate genocide is so distasteful, huh?

Its unfortunate that there is, in this day and age an ideology/religion that teaches its adherents that killing non-believers, subjugating non-believers, is not only just, but rightous.

605 Syrah  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:20:12am

re: #210 shibumi

Well, individual governments can use tax incentives for people to have children- they did something similar in Russia recently. They could also encourage schools to teach civic/national pride. They could mandate assimilation, and get rid of Muslim only ghettos. Or even better, send missionaries into those enclaves and encourage them to convert to Christianity.

(Yea, I know the last suggestion will never happen. As for the rest, they're doubtful too. But they could be done.)

To effectively challenge Islam, Islam itself must be confronted at it's very core. The West's, and indeed, the World's only hope against Islam is to Witness for a better way.

That would be a difficult thing to do. It might even be, as you suggest, nigh impossible.

Europe is spiritually impotent, if not dead.

Secularism, hedonism and narcissistic nihilism have turned the churches of Europe into the sepulchers of God.

606 wolfie  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:20:45am

re: #599 song_and_dance_man

The Left is suffering from an Ishmael complex.

Nothing to say about it. Just know I have pondered & continue to ponder this.

(I believe you were the one who wrote that. If you weren't, then just pretend you didn't read this.)

607 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:22:11am

re: #604 Jokey401

Eh- I've seen better dodging, but nice try.

608 Render  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:23:19am

Lieutenant Colonel Kratman,

Are you discounting the French National Police in your calculations?

In terms of sheer numbers (misleading at best I know but bear with this civilian) it would seem that the combined French military and law enforcement is as much as twice the size of the US and allied contingent in Iraq at its largest.

French population (est) 60 million +

Iraq population (est) 27 million + (up by some 5 million since 2003)

Even with a worst case scenario of up to one third of the current standing French military being unavailable, either through desertion from the ranks or just plain too far overseas to intervene in time, the available French military/law enforcement manpower is still far larger than the current Coalition manpower within Iraq.

The French would have two additional advantages over the Coalition in Iraq. (1) Fighting on home turf that they know better than anybody on the planet, including their own immigrants, and (2) against an insurgent population that is considerably less well armed than the Iraqi insurgent population was/is.

There is the additional non-Muslim civilian population of France to consider as well. Woe becomes any invader who arouses the French National Guard (except for those pesky Prussians and Corsicans).

===

It's been my understanding that several of the European nations had been quietly and for some time now, rounding up individuals with terrorist connections and either charging them with crimes or deporting them.

===

Welcome aboard Lieutenant Colonel. It's an honor to have you here and I hope you'll stick around.

I, (we), have much to learn from a man of your caliber and experience.

WITH
RESPECT,
R

609 Jokey401  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:24:38am

That fact, is certainly unfortunate for India and the Sudan and Algeria and Afghanistan and New York and Pakistan and Israel and Russia and Chechnya and the Philippines and Indonesia and Nigeria and England and Thailand and Spain and Egypt and Bangladesh and Saudi Arabia and Ingushetia and Dagestan and Turkey and Kabardino-Balkaria and Morocco and Yemen and Lebanon and France and Uzbekistan and Gaza and Tunisia and Kosovo and Bosnia and Mauritania and Kenya and Eritrea and Syria and Somalia and California and Argentina and Kuwait and Virginia and Ethiopia and Iran and Jordan and United Arab Emirates and Louisiana and Texas and Tanzania and Germany and Australia and Pennsylvania and Belgium and Denmark and East Timor and Qatar and Maryland and Tajikistan and the Netherlands and Scotland and Chad and Canada and China and Nepal
and the Maldives and...

...and pretty much wherever Muslims believe their religion tells them to:

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah, ... nor follow
the religion of truth... until they pay the tax in acknowledg-ment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection."
Qur'an, Sura 9:29

610 RTLM  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:25:07am

re: #603 redc1c4

their readiness ratio sucks, despite assurances from their MOD.

/nutshell

Stemming from the fact that they apparently manufacture unreliable "réacteurs" (jet engines).

611 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:25:50am

re: #605 Syrah

Secularism, hedonism and narcissistic nihilism have turned the churches of Europe into the sepulchers of God.


Wrong. Secular society has been producing dividends since the French Revolution. It's sad that so many no longer understand the importance of the separation of church and state and the individual liberty that secular society has given us. Reversion into 17th century theocracy is a losing battle. Give it up because it ain't gonna happen.

612 Jokey401  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:26:48am

That is what is unfortunate. And anything that happens to people who beleive in that. Get whats coming to them. woot woot.

and goodnight!

613 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:27:20am

re: #609 Jokey401

Yeah- we're all aware of the dangers of islam at LGF. However- pointing to islam to somehow justify fascists and/or genocidal solutions is not going to fly around here.

614 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:29:46am
615 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:30:16am

Lgf Is getting a lot of referrals from this site. Anyone know what it is?

616 savage_nation[deleted]  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:30:17am
617 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:32:40am

re: #610 RTLM

Stemming from the fact that they apparently manufacture unreliable "r%uFFFDacteurs" (jet engines).

and we want them to build *our* tanker fleet?

/buy Boeing!

618 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:33:06am
Onnozele islamwatchers kunnen geen prioriteiten stellen.


WTF?

619 Render  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:33:36am

re: #615 Killgore Trout

hmmm...

R

620 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:34:37am

re: #612 Jokey401

That is what is unfortunate. And anything that happens to people who beleive in that. Get whats coming to them. woot woot.

and goodnight!

and stay gone this time.

/where's the dog when you need him?

621 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:35:34am

re: #615 Killgore Trout

Lgf Is getting a lot of referrals from this site. Anyone know what it is?

buncha dam furriners that tak funny?

/bitter & clingy

622 neocon hippie  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:35:52am

re: #615 Killgore Trout

Lgf Is getting a lot of referrals from this site. Anyone know what it is?

It means "The Free People" but I don't know enough Dutch to know anything beyond that.

623 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:36:15am

re: #618 Killgore Trout

Onnozele islamwatchers can not set priorities.


Yeah!
......wait....
What?

624 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:36:25am
625 Render  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:36:59am

Anybody got Konservos number handy?

411,
R

626 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:38:28am

re: #615 Killgore Trout

Try WorldLingo for translation.

627 RTLM  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:39:42am

Lt. Col. Tom Kratman,

Salute.

628 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:40:18am

re: #625 Render

Yes.

629 JHW  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:40:49am

re: #618 Killgore Trout

All I can make out, it`s Dutch, I`m wildly guessing Islam Watchers Argue about Positions (or priorities) Stellen in German, a related language, can mean place or position I think. Just a Wild guess, I dont know if there`s any criticism implied or they`re just drawing attention to a blog fight.

630 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:41:11am
631 wolfie  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:42:19am

re: #613 Sharmuta

Yeah- we're all aware of the dangers of islam at LGF. However- pointing to islam to somehow justify fascists and/or genocidal solutions is not going to fly around here.

The whole point is to fight Islamofascism and genocide, isn't it?
So I fight the green shirts with brown shirts?
Do I sign on with the Maoists because I don't like Stalinists?!
The only reason I would do that is if my sole interest was in power, rather than principles.

632 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:45:08am

re: #631 wolfie

The only reason I would do that is if my sole interest was in power, rather than principles.

Yep. That's pretty much it in a nutshell.

633 wolfie  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:45:33am

re: #621 redc1c4

buncha dam furriners that tak funny?

/bitter & clingy

That's it! :D

634 Syrah  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:46:06am

re: #611 Killgore Trout

Wrong. Secular society has been producing dividends since the French Revolution. It's sad that so many no longer understand the importance of the separation of church and state and the individual liberty that secular society has given us. Reversion into 17th century theocracy is a losing battle. Give it up because it ain't gonna happen.

The separation of church and state are essential to the health of both the church and the state.

Their missions differ in too many ways.

The church cannot serve as the state, nor can the state serve as the church.

I would have preferred a refrence to the American Revolution rather then to the French.

The "dividends" of the French Revolution were that the terror becomes permissible when the state becomes god.

635 Tom Kratman  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:46:50am

re: #608 Render

Lieutenant Colonel Kratman,

Are you discounting the French National Police in your calculations?

In terms of sheer numbers (misleading at best I know but bear with this civilian) it would seem that the combined French military and law enforcement is as much as twice the size of the US and allied contingent in Iraq at its largest.

French population (est) 60 million +

Iraq population (est) 27 million + (up by some 5 million since 2003)

Even with a worst case scenario of up to one third of the current standing French military being unavailable, either through desertion from the ranks or just plain too far overseas to intervene in time, the available French military/law enforcement manpower is still far larger than the current Coalition manpower within Iraq.

The French would have two additional advantages over the Coalition in Iraq. (1) Fighting on home turf that they know better than anybody on the planet, including their own immigrants, and (2) against an insurgent population that is considerably less well armed than the Iraqi insurgent population was/is.

There is the additional non-Muslim civilian population of France to consider as well. Woe becomes any invader who arouses the French National Guard (except for those pesky Prussians and Corsicans).

===

It's been my understanding that several of the European nations had been quietly and for some time now, rounding up individuals with terrorist connections and either charging them with crimes or deporting them.

===

Welcome aboard Lieutenant Colonel. It's an honor to have you here and I hope you'll stick around.

I, (we), have much to learn from a man of your caliber and experience.

WITH
RESPECT,
R

Thanks.
I know of the existence, broadly speaking the size, and generally the level of equipment and training of the Gendarmerie. Generally speaking they're good. I note, however, that France can only send overseas about 2000 of all that total. Surely they could muster more within France, but I doubt they could pull them all in. They have local duties.

The Iraq equation is useful but limited. We had a fair amount of our more trivial missions being done by Iraqis (sure, maybe not that well in many cases) which gave us a bit more to work with.

The thing that disturbs me, A thing anyway, in Europe is that they're creating tribes on the spot.

(Hmmm...this is a digression. One of the things that is generally true of Moslem armies is that they suck. There are some exceptions, however, and the exceptions are worth looking at. I'll mention two, the Jordanian Arab Legion (Bad translation that, it's really Jaysh al Arabi, "Arab Army") and the Saudi Harras al Watini, the Saudi National Guard. Both of these are actually fairly decent. They've a finite tolerance for casualties (and if anyone's curious, Consul-at-arms has on his site a short piece I wrote on the subject on Baen's Bar some years ago), but until that point of tolerance is met they'll fight pretty hard. The big reason for this, insofar as I can see, is that they're clan/blood based at about the battalion level.)

Back to tribes. I suspect that in France every bloody banlieu is in the process of forming a local tribe (maybe better said, the exculsion from real french society is forcing the people into tribes) which _might_ make them a little more Arab legionish than the Moslem norm. Anyone who cares to look and can speak French (I can't), are we finding group criminal events in which Algerians are cooperating with Tunisions who are cooperating with Morrocans? If so, that is evidence that local tribes are being formed on the spot. This could make them, if they have smuggled in, or do smuggle in, substantial weaponry fairly difficult to root out.

And so, we are still having to calculate it, not just for now but for 10 or 20 years from now. When you have to calculate it, it is no longer a sure thing.

636 wolfie  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:47:44am

re: #634 Syrah

BINGO !

637 Syrah  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:51:15am

Sleeping on the keyboard makes me look very strange the next morning.

Goodnight all.

638 wolfie  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:52:14am

re: #637 Syrah

Sleeping on the keyboard makes me look very strange the next morning.

Goodnight all.

Goodnight!.....and I think I agree about the keyboard thing......so I too will say
goodnight!

639 Tom Kratman  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:53:26am

re: #601 American Jewess In Jerusalem

Charles, do I have your permission to post an Afterword from a book here? I won't post without it.

AJIJ, if you want some suggestions for what the Euros could possibly do drop me an email and I'll send it to you.

640 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:55:39am
641 RTLM  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:56:00am

This turned out to be one the more enlightening threads here.

642 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:56:40am
643 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:57:01am
644 JHW  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 12:58:30am

re: #641 RTLM

True, and very different from some of the threads yesterday. lots of good input.

645 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 1:03:42am

It's 1 AM- do you know where your sanity is?

I figured it was time to come to LGF when I was channel surfing and came across Aaron McGruders rather forgettable Boondocks on Cartoon Network.

They must've had Jerimiah Wright on staff as a writer before he became a household name.

646 Call me Infidel  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 1:04:11am

re: #312 rorschach

I'm just saying, there's a lot of regular folks over there who have no control over the decisions made by their "betters". Hell, Britain became a welfare state in what, 1910 or so?

They've been manipulated by the media and lied to by the goverment for at least a century.

They're helpless and they're scared to death.

I think 1946 is more accurate with the formation of the NHS and 1948 the National Assistance Act but I get your point.
As for those advocating deportations I want to know where do they suggest these people are deported too? If someone is born in France and has French nationality then where would they be deported too? I think if they were of say Algerian extraction the Government of Algeria might not be too cooperative in having a French national forced on them.
Sadly the outlook in Europe is bleak. Unless something is done to destroy the cancer of socialism I think fascists, be they islamic or nazi will continue to flourish.

647 Tom Kratman  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 1:06:53am

re: #635 Tom Kratman

I need to add something to that that makes it in the nature of a sure thing, but a really miserable and ugly sure thing.

Were France to surround every banlieu in existence, wire it in, and dump (renounce) the additional protocols to Geneva Convention IV, they could simply starve the occupants out. Note here, that this means forcing non-combatants to remain inside, killing them if they try to escape, in order to have them eat up all the food. But for the additional protocols this is perfectly legal under the laws of war. (With a few exceptions, like you have to let out pregnant women, the very elderly and sick, small children...though note: You don't have to let them out right away.)

The idea of a European state having that kind of ruthlessness, though, is not likely.

648 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 1:19:04am
649 RTLM  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 1:23:25am

re: #647 Tom Kratman


I need to add something to that that makes it in the nature of a sure thing, but a really miserable and ugly sure thing.

Were France to surround every banlieu in existence, wire it in, and dump (renounce) the additional protocols to Geneva Convention IV, they could simply starve the occupants out. Note here, that this means forcing non-combatants to remain inside, killing them if they try to escape, in order to have them eat up all the food. But for the additional protocols this is perfectly legal under the laws of war. (With a few exceptions, like you have to let out pregnant women, the very elderly and sick, small children...though note: You don't have to let them out right away.)

The idea of a European state having that kind of ruthlessness, though, is not likely.

Politically impossible today in France. What with all the noise they made over Tibet/China-Olympic Torch and then the forth coming conciliatory gestures from French leaders - the French are loathe to to be loathed.

(Given the long term incremental nature of the advance of the brand of tribalisation you describe)

650 Render  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 1:23:29am

re: #635 Tom Kratman

Please don't hammer me for using a Wiki link...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compagnies_R%C3%A9pub licaines_de_S%C3%A9curit%C3%A9

I was under the impression that the French National Police operated as a combined FBI/State Police/SWAT/National Guard. The wiki says 61 "companies" available as a QRF. I'm assuming they would be on the scene before the regulars are called out.

I got nothing else to disagree with you on except to quibble about relative available manpower that can change drastically at the drop of a hat.

My understanding is that the French Muslim gangs (or tribes as you've called them) are already very international, with for obvious reasons, North Africans predominating.

I've also seen reports of arms smuggling to and by those gangs.

The professionalism of the Jordanian Arab Legion came from the steady hand of Sir John Glubb Pasha and his cadre of British officers. The Saud's I'm not so sure about. I've had the thought that if the House of Saud was to be successfully overthrown, the National Guard would have to do it or be involved.

re: #639 Tom Kratman

Please, if it'll fit in the post count, post it? I don't think Charles would mind...

SOMEHOW,
R

651 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 1:24:23am
652 guftafs  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 1:25:03am

What a piece of work they are over GoV. The Nazis first intention was to forcibly expell the Jews from the Reich and ship them to Madagascar, the East, whatever. When all other "options" were made "impossible" they decided that the problem needed a final, murderous solution. Read Saul Friedländer's excellent books on the subject. GoV and their supporters are disgusting. No rationalizations or excuses from them can hide that fact.

653 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 1:27:57am

re: #647 Tom Kratman

WTH? Are you advocating this approach?

654 Tom Kratman  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 1:32:21am

re: #627 RTLM
Thanks.

655 freetoken  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 1:32:32am

re: #651 song_and_dance_man

You're not alone...

656 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 1:33:17am
657 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 1:36:06am
658 RTLM  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 1:38:38am

Anyone for some Blues?

659 mean Gene  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 1:38:52am

Today Mark Steyn did a wonderful piece about thought crimes and all of the hate speech laws Germany had before WWII.
Not one of those laws helped.
He pointed out the absurdity of even trying that tactic.
Posted here:
[Link: yidwithlid.blogspot.com...]
I think stuff like at Gates and some posters here need the antiseptic light of day.
It is the only way to really expose their absurdities.

660 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 1:39:38am

re: #656 song_and_dance_man

*crickets*

661 Tom Kratman  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 1:39:46am

re: #653 Sharmuta


I am telling you what is possible and legal, under the customary laws of war. To find "advocating" you need to look for the words "should" or "must". "Must" was used, but not in the context to support advocacy.

If, on the other hand, I were a French commander tasked with uprooting what amounted to a rebellion I would ask myself, among other things, if I had the forces to accomplish the mission, what the civilian casualties would be if I assaulted, what my own casualties would be if I assaulted and if those would interfere with additional missions I might expect, how long it would take to starve them out with civilians there, how long it would take to starve them out if I let the civvies out, etc. It's a basic METT sort of thing. The answer, based on all of those, and some others, might well be to starve them out, as I have described, in accordance with the law of war, assuming the additional protocols were duly renounced, of course.

662 Tom Kratman  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 1:41:00am

re: #657 song_and_dance_man

I meant exactly what I said, twat.

663 Catttt  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 1:44:46am

From a comment from GoV, quoted above:

start killing anything that looks remotely Muslim.

Shudder.

Would that include these people?

A number of women in my neighborhood dress this way, with long skirts, long sleeves, and snoods or scarves. Hint to GoV - not everyone who dresses modestly and covers her hair is Muslim. Just so you know.

664 Render  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 1:47:34am

re: #647 Tom Kratman

uh...

What RTLM #649 and Sharmuta #653 said.

===

SaDM, don't blow a gut just yet. However unpleasant a result and minuscule the chances of it happening, it does have to be considered into the calculations. Myself I'd put the odds at 0% of something anywhere close to that bad happening, but I'll leave the odds making to Vega$Rick.

===

Perhaps not so much of a quibble after all...

With all due respect Lt. Col. Kratman, I think you're underestimating the capacity of the French police and overestimating the strength of the banlieu gangs.

MORE,
R

665 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 1:48:48am

re: #661 Tom Kratman

So what you're saying is, this is what France could do were it to declare war on it's own population. Got it.

/Sounds fascist....just sayin'.

666 Tom Kratman  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 1:49:45am

re: #650 Render

Yes, it wasn't just professional training from Glubb and company. When you have amorally familistic societies, having someone outside the chain of clan and tribe on top he can ignore the pull of blood and maintain discipline, promote the worthy, dump the rest.

Basically there are two ways to effectively, for some values of effectively, deal with amoral familism in a military organization. ah, to hell with it.

Digression, read this: [Link: consul-at-arms.blogspot.com...]

And, no, it would be...impolite and improper to post something that has any possible financial implications for myself without either permission or paying for it. Hmmm...never mind, in about 2 hours Peter Hodges will have a copy on his site: [Link: www.peter-hodges.com...]

667 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 1:51:19am
668 Tom Kratman  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 1:51:37am

re: #648 song_and_dance_man

You are a freak.

Stan is winking at you.

/pick up the soap

And you appear to be a) ignorant of the law of war and b) a asshole. So?

669 George guy  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 1:52:49am

Do something about it, and at the same time seize the moral high ground.

Form a charitable organization whose primary function is providing personal security to those who qualify as:
1) Persons threatened by an abusive household, and to that end provide or cooperate with appropriate shelters;
2) Persons threatened for publishing material criticizing certain groups with a history of violent hypersensitivity;
3) Persons who live or work within the vicinity of any territory under the de facto control of any criminal organization.

Any "action" would then be restricted to whatever is legally justifiable with regard to the safety of these three classes of people.

If anything needs to be done on top of that, perhaps it will be necessary to monitor places of worship and other religious facilities in order to anticipate and thwart terroristic attacks -- not only will the obvious suspects try to hit Jewish and Christian centers, but there will be the problem of certain idiots trying to do the same to Islamic centers. All of that must be prevented.

From this beginning, the jihadist menace may be faced with unimpeachable opposition.

670 Abu Lahab  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 1:53:04am

European-style solutions always come in the wrong direction.
Then they whine and complain and ask the United States for help.
It wasn't that long ago when Fascists marched through Europe wrecking havoc on everything they touched and coming up with the most systematic organized killing in history. Why are we supposed now to believe that these people have changed? They haven't!
They have found another enemy, and I think temporarily.

To call the author of this crap "thoughtful" is like saying that the nutcase Hitler was a "thinker". That's a disgrace!
European solution come in black and white:
Either play the ostrich man or go around killing everyone.

671 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 1:55:41am

re: #667 song_and_dance_man

slut

Please don't drag the sharmutas into this.

672 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 1:55:52am

re: #648 song_and_dance_man

You are a freak.

Stan is winking at you.

/pick up the soap

no, he's simply stating a military reality. he wasn't advocating it, just saying it's an option as opposed to going room to room through the entire area, clearing and holding each building at a time.

/Harmony Church rules

673 Tom Kratman  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 1:56:18am

re: #664 Render

re: #664 Render


I think I've said clearly that we don't know what the gangs are capable of, nor what they might be capable of some years down the road. It's, at this point, just an intellectual exercise.

674 Tom Kratman  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 1:58:09am

re: #667 song_and_dance_man

I hear what you're saying too. You are calculating war and death and the balance that it consumes. Children are in your mix. It is hell ain't it?

I can see the disturbance war causes, and I presume it must be discussed and planned somewhere, but I have a real problem that is it is ever considered. Stan must be pleased with you, slut.

Children are always in the mix. So are the elderly. and the sick. And pregnant women. War sucks. Maybe not as hard or as well as you do, but still it sucks. Deal.

675 RTLM  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 1:59:51am

nite all

(damn!)

676 Tom Kratman  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:00:00am

re: #665 Sharmuta

So...ummm...Grant was a fascist at Vicksburg, was he? Just askin'.

677 littleoldlady  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:00:00am

Good morning, afternoon, evening *everyone*™

Fruitcup is on the buffet ------------------>
Help yourselves!

678 Render  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:00:07am

re: #671 Sharmuta

...

INCOMING,
R

679 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:00:55am

re: #667 song_and_dance_man

I hear what you're saying too. You are calculating war and death and the balance that it consumes. Children are in your mix. It is hell ain't it?

I can see the disturbance war causes, and I presume it must be discussed and planned somewhere, but I have a real problem that is it is ever considered. Stan must be pleased with you, slut.

more likely he's laughing at your stupidity.

/stick to music

680 MigueldowninMexico  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:01:18am

re: #677 littleoldlady

Good morning, afternoon, evening *everyone*™

Fruitcup is on the buffet ------------------>
Help yourselves!

WOW!
Another Perfect Mark!
Two sharp :)

Congratulations and thanks ;)

681 littleoldlady  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:01:52am

Miguelito! :-)

w00t! ;-)

682 Tom Kratman  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:02:24am

re: #649 RTLM

I hesitate to say "impossible" when dealing with Europe and extremism.

683 MigueldowninMexico  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:02:25am

re: #681 littleoldlady

Miguelito! :-)

w00t! ;-)

A+!
;)

684 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:02:55am
685 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:03:58am

re: #682 Tom Kratman

I hesitate to say "impossible" when dealing with Europe and extremism.

true: all the sane ones emigrated years ago.

/rats in a lab experiment gone mad

686 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:04:50am

re: #684 song_and_dance_man

The law of war, yeah, a) explain that to me.

There is a law that governs war?

Bullshit, war is rebellion, straight up. It is waged for envy, always.

careful: your complete lack of knowledge on this subject is showing.

687 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:05:09am
688 MigueldowninMexico  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:05:26am

re: #684 song_and_dance_man

You're barking at the wrong tree, man.

689 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:06:05am

Clues for the Clueless

/help yourself

690 Tom Kratman  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:07:36am

re: #679 redc1c4


You've captured the very Platonic essence of my reaction to and asssessment of SaDM.

691 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:07:38am

re: #687 song_and_dance_man

The gauge of intelligence speaks. Find another patch.

why? you're holding forth on a subject where's painfully obvious my training, experience and knowledge vastly exceeds yours.......

692 Render  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:08:24am

re: #669 George guy

[Link: www.guardianangels.org...]

Yeah and then what?

HAVE
WE
MET?,
R

693 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:08:33am
694 MigueldowninMexico  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:08:59am

re: #691 redc1c4

why? you're holding forth on a subject where's painfully obvious my training, experience and knowledge vastly exceeds yours.......


And Kratman's vastly exceeds yours
lol

/Duh

695 Tom Kratman  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:09:09am

re: #684 song_and_dance_man

The law of war, yeah, a) explain that to me.

There is a law that governs war?

Bullshit, war is rebellion, straight up. It is waged for envy, always.

Man, you really _are_ ignorant.

696 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:09:29am

re: #690 Tom Kratman

You've captured the very Platonic essence of my reaction to and asssessment of SaDM.

he's violating the first law of holes...... %-)

697 MigueldowninMexico  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:09:36am

re: #693 song_and_dance_man

{SaDM}

698 MigueldowninMexico  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:10:45am

re: #695 Tom Kratman

Man, you really _are_ ignorant.

He's droping contention now.

699 Render  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:11:02am

re: #694 MigueldowninMexico

I suspect most of ours combined.

NO
ADDITION,
R

700 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:11:36am

re: #694 MigueldowninMexico

And Kratman's vastly exceeds yours
lol

/Duh

maybe not as much as you think it might. besides, unlike *some* people, i'm aware of my limitations: for instance, i don't start lecturing people on a subject i know nothing about but that they do.

701 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:11:46am
702 MigueldowninMexico  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:11:48am

re: #699 Render

I suspect most of ours combined.

NO
ADDITION,
R

Greetings to you, Render :)

703 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:12:20am

re: #676 Tom Kratman

Is France in a state of actual civil war with the muslim enclaves declaring themselves independent states?

704 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:13:41am

re: #701 song_and_dance_man

So explain why war is waged and what law governs it.

i posted a link to the Army web site with the FM in question: read it & get back to us.

705 MigueldowninMexico  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:14:20am

re: #700 redc1c4

maybe not as much as you think it might. besides, unlike *some* people, i'm aware of my limitations: for instance, i don't start lecturing people on a subject i know nothing about but that they do.

Ahem.

I'll avoid answering this one lol ;)

/Bear with me
//white smoke back at ya!

706 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:14:49am

re: #705 MigueldowninMexico


%-)

707 MigueldowninMexico  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:15:52am

LOL red ;)

708 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:16:03am
709 MigueldowninMexico  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:16:18am

This has been quite a thread...

710 USS Ben  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:16:39am

"At Gates of Vienna, an author referred to as “thoughtful” has a piece that lovingly describes the coming genocide of Muslims in Europe: Gates of Vienna: Surrender, Genocide ... or What?"

"Thoughtful" and indeed, all those who support the fascists, are Stantanic!

711 Tom Kratman  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:18:52am

re: #701 song_and_dance_man

So explain why war is waged and what law governs it.

Redc1c4 already gave you a link to the law. Read it. Then get back with us. _Can_ you read, twat?

712 Tom Kratman  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:19:32am

re: #703 Sharmuta

I don't believe anyone has yet suggested such a thing. Where did you come up with it?

713 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:20:06am

speaking of smoke, Household 6 is gonna smoke me if'n i don't hit the rack & get up at a reasonable hour tomorrow.

besides, i've gotta get everything ready for us to go to the 1/18th Cav Ball on caturday......

flask of scotch? check
Squadron coin? check
Dress jacket? check
Dress Pants? check
Black tie? check
crusty and dusty Stetson? check
wild ass Hawaiian shirt to wear with it all? still to be chosen...... %-)

/the joys of retirement

"Scouts Out!"

714 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:21:28am
715 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:21:45am

re: #708 song_and_dance_man

I wasn't asking you.

once again demonstrating that you are a fools fool.

FM 27-10 Law of Land Warfare

read it and learn something

/my bad: it's a Marine site. (still official though. %-)

716 MigueldowninMexico  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:22:27am

I had an epiphany today.
There's this "wonder kid". A 13 y/o English boy that's been ranked as one of the best in the world for Olympic Diving. He's one of the hopes of the UK for Pekin.
Ok. He's in Mexico right now, practicing and trying different conditions (the 7k feet o.s.l. in Mexico City atracts many athletes to work under hard conditions).
He was interwied on TV by a woman who speaks good English, and after a few questions she asked him:
¿How do you like Mexico?

ATTENTION HERE.
He said:
OH, I love it here! People are nice, they talk to you and smile, and laugh. In England people don't talk or laugh, they are aggressive. England is not nice, I wish I could stay and live in Mexico...

WOW!
That gave me a deep insight of how desperate Europeans are. 13 y/o boys in England only see a hostile, non-affectionated, ugly society around them
I feel soooooooooo bad for Europeans :(

717 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:22:54am
718 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:23:36am

re: #712 Tom Kratman

From your poor analogy.

719 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:23:44am

re: #711 Tom Kratman

Redc1c4 already gave you a link to the law. Read it. Then get back with us. _Can_ you read, twat?

i can read him here, but he's coming in broken & stupid. i suggest he relocate the transmitter and switch operators. %-)

/yeah, i was commo too, one time or another

720 Tom Kratman  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:24:53am

re: #713 redc1c4

You mean you can still fit in your blues? I gave up years ago and keep the things only out of sentiment. And the whites are worse. The undertaker will have a helluva time fitting me into those.

721 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:25:47am

re: #717 song_and_dance_man

And you are a bitch of what compels you.

i feel compelled to mock stupidity, so i guess that makes you *my* bitch in the scheme of things..... %-)

722 Tom Kratman  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:26:44am

re: #714 song_and_dance_man

I can read obfuscation. What is your answer?

At this point, leaving aside that you're a foul-mouthed asshole, and apparently one with homosexual fixations (to each his own, I suppose), you're simply too ignorant to talk to. RFTM and get back with us. Twat.

723 MigueldowninMexico  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:26:50am

All this bitching around leads to nothing positive...

724 MigueldowninMexico  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:29:19am

re: #601 American Jewess In Jerusalem

Bravo, JenV. I'm reading this thread and shaking my head. WTH?

I have my own reasons for not wanting to support White Supremicists (I am not, after all, suicidal), but I agree with Age of Freedom's statement that many of the people who have joined GOV are not bigots and fascists, but are genuinely and legitimately afraid of what is happening to their countries and they see NO ONE ELSE, least of all their governments, taking any protective action. When the White Supremicists are the ONLY ONES speaking out and taking action against the Islamic takeover of Europe (and the world), isn't that pretty sad? Maybe instead of simply castigating the GOV, we could think of ways to start our own political action organizations to defend ourselves and our countries in ways that comply with our personal ethics -- to the extent that is possible. In war, innocent people die no matter how fervently people with morals try to or wish to prevent it.

I also haven't seen anyone here really put forward a strategy for dealing with the Muslims. Force them to integrate? What? What does that even mean? Not allow them to live in enclaves. What? If you were a European, would you really want these barbarians, like the ones who tortured Ilan Halimi and all the others who heard what was going on and did NOTHING, living in your neighborhood? Are you going to monitor their schools and their mosques? Fine, they will just take both further underground, and it will be continued, business as usual. You cannot control people's minds.

Mass deportation is not a sane immigration policy? Really? Then WHAT IS? Because THEY ARE ALREADY HERE, and you cannot force them to change their mindset as a solution -- remember, western democracies are all about FREEDOM of belief of the individual.

This is a quagmire and as high-minded as we all may want to be, I agree with everyone who says that the reality is this is going to get ugly and bloody and I predict a civil war; and as with all conflicts, innocents will be killed. That's just the way it is. The leaders have been such pussies up to this point that the barbarians are completely emboldened, such that any move, no matter how slight or gentle, to rein them in will result in riotous outrage. I really think the time is past for dealing with this problem in subtle ways.

Lastly, I am offended by any "victim" comparison of Jews to Muslims -- Jews in Europe prior to WWII were productive, law-abiding, patriotic citizens. Gentile hatred of Jews was completely and totally unwarranted -- it was all about jealousy. Conversely, far too many Muslims in Europe now are none of these things but are, rather, hostile foreign nationals committing the bulk of violent crimes, sucking the welfare system dry, and plotting their takeover. They have nothing to offer their resident countries. If they are hated and feared, there is a REASON for it. Of course not all of them are guilty, but too many of them are.

If you allow the enemy to use your own ethical sensibility as a weapon against you, then you are a fool. Bye-bye.

I agree with you, Jewess!

725 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:29:34am

re: #720 Tom Kratman

You mean you can still fit in your blues? I gave up years ago and keep the things only out of sentiment. And the whites are worse. The undertaker will have a helluva time fitting me into those.

my blues? not hardly, hence the Hawaiian shirt. i picked up a nice jacket (relatively)cheap at a local reuse store, and i've got w*rk slacks & low quarters that will do. HH6 is on the warpath for me to meet 600-9, so maybe i'll be able to next year.... i had a certain rep in Squadron so showing up like this will be *most* in character. %-)

726 Tom Kratman  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:29:57am

re: #718 Sharmuta

From your poor analogy.

Do you know anything about the siege of Vicksburg? How it was conducted?

Look, like it or lump it, what I gave you was the law of war for this particular issue for any states not under the Additional Protocols to GC IV. If you don't like that...well....that's really tough for you. Can't help you. I didn't make the world; I just observe and report.

727 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:30:05am
728 USS Ben  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:30:10am

Man, there sure is a lot of bitchin' here tonight.
Let's focus on the bad guys, the fascists, okay? No need to turn this into a name callin' contest.
Unless you wanna call GoV names.

729 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:31:25am
730 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:31:27am

re: #723 MigueldowninMexico

All this bitching around leads to nothing positive...

speak for yourself John Alden.... %-)

/really out of here now.

L8r!

/white smoke

731 Tom Kratman  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:31:53am

re: #725 redc1c4

Ah. I figured from the Stetson you were going for the full deal.

732 MigueldowninMexico  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:32:21am

re: #730 redc1c4

speak for yourself John Alden.... %-)

/really out of here now.

L8r!

/white smoke

:p
*Stinking tongue out*

Bye ;)

733 Tom Kratman  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:32:32am

re: #729 song_and_dance_man

Foul mouthed? Now that is new.

Answer the question.

New from you? One doubts it.
RFTM.
Twat.

734 MigueldowninMexico  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:33:51am

Personal issues should be dropped at the door.

Let's stick to the Big Issues.

735 MigueldowninMexico  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:34:53am

Where is Jewels?
We need recipies lol

And where is Trigger Girl?
I'm lagging behind in my Russian studies...

736 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:35:28am
737 Render  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:35:32am

re: #727 song_and_dance_man

I did make a polite request of you. Are you ignoring me?

RAISED
EYEBROW,
R

738 MigueldowninMexico  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:36:35am

re: #737 Render

I said Hi! to you and you didn't answer...

EVEN.
:p

739 Render  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:37:34am

re: #738 MigueldowninMexico

I plused I plused!

Mornin {Miggy}!

MUST
SLEEP
SOON,
R

740 MigueldowninMexico  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:38:56am

re: #739 Render

I plused I plused!

Mornin {Miggy}!

MUST
SLEEP
SOON,
R

Oh, sorry,
Oops.
Ok, have a good night sleep!
;)

741 Tom Kratman[deleted]  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:40:01am
742 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:40:42am

re: #728 USS Ben

Let's focus on the bad guys, the fascists, okay? No need to turn this into a name callin' contest.
Unless you wanna call GoV names.

I can't think of anything vile enough to call them except that which they are- a bunch of blood thirsty fascist-nazi wanna-bes.

743 MigueldowninMexico  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:41:18am

re: #741 Tom Kratman

Please, tone down.
There are ladies around, among other things.

You can say anything in a detached non-confrontational mode ;)

744 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:41:58am
745 Tom Kratman  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:45:12am

re: #744 song_and_dance_man

No.

I can let it slide. I have a real problem with war and find it disgusting. I was looking for a good reason to wage it, and so far no one has advanced an adequate justification.

You mean then that the Russians should not have defended themselves from the Nazis? Amazing.

Moron.

746 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:45:42am

re: #743 MigueldowninMexico

I'm just dinging it down now. And for that reason alone.

747 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:45:50am
748 Tom Kratman  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:45:51am

re: #743 MigueldowninMexico

Please, tone down.
There are ladies around, among other things.

You can say anything in a detached non-confrontational mode ;)

Attacked, I attack back.

749 MigueldowninMexico  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:46:23am

re: #746 Sharmuta

I'm just dinging it down now. And for that reason alone.

I'm with you there.

750 MigueldowninMexico  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:47:00am

re: #748 Tom Kratman

Attacked, I attack back.

Just don't forget there are ladies around here reading this.
:)

751 Tom Kratman  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:47:12am

re: #747 song_and_dance_man

You're a funny guy. I hope someday you can answer a direct question. Keep trying and hope for that day.

No fool, you just said you wanted a good reason to wage it. I gave you one; to avoid being exterminated.

Was it also disgusting for the Russians to wage war to keep from being exterminated?

Answer the question.

752 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:48:52am

re: #749 MigueldowninMexico

Really? I don't see your dings.

753 Tom Kratman  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:50:16am

re: #750 MigueldowninMexico

Just don't forget there are ladies around here reading this.
:)

I am sure. And when SaDM gives up and departs, the board will be cleaner overall. Think of it as war in microcosm. Innocents get hurt. Yes, it is sad.

754 MigueldowninMexico  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:50:56am

Let's get some music to lighten this thread up :)
Viva Roy! ;)

755 MigueldowninMexico  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:51:56am

re: #752 Sharmuta

Really? I don't see your dings.

I reported it.
:p

756 Tom Kratman  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:53:25am

re: #754 MigueldowninMexico

It was all pretty civil, really, until slobber and drool woman popped in.

757 Render  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:53:33am

re: #744 song_and_dance_man

1: Self-defense.

Hence the name of the Israeli military. The Israeli Defense Force.

2: When a tyranny becomes so oppressive and/or genocidal that the rest of civilization must band together to remove it from power.

A mid-20th century discovery that should probably be exercised more often than it actually is. But nobody else seems willing or capable of footing the bill.

3: In defense of allies who are under attack.

Do I need to go on? Or can I go to bed now?

WORK
WITH
ME
HERE,
R

758 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:55:35am
759 MigueldowninMexico  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 2:56:56am

re: #756 Tom Kratman

It was all pretty civil, really, until slobber and drool woman popped in.

Ok, but let's drop it here.
Song and dance and I have been pretty much at odds several times, but there is no necessity of taking issues so personally.

The tone here on LGF, specially in the morning, is mostly agreable and nice between lizards.

And we keep our BP down, enjoying mutual company ;)

760 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 3:01:54am

Does anyone know if there is going to be another counter-jihad summit, and if so, will the author of this "lovely" piece be speaking?

761 MigueldowninMexico  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 3:02:23am
762 MigueldowninMexico  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 3:03:32am

re: #760 Sharmuta

Does anyone know if there is going to be another counter-jihad summit, and if so, will the author of this "lovely" piece be speaking?

Beats me.

763 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 3:03:42am
764 Tom Kratman  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 3:04:13am

re: #757 Render

1: Self-defense.

Hence the name of the Israeli military. The Israeli Defense Force.

2: When a tyranny becomes so oppressive and/or genocidal that the rest of civilization must band together to remove it from power.

A mid-20th century discovery that should probably be exercised more often than it actually is. But nobody else seems willing or capable of footing the bill.

3: In defense of allies who are under attack.

Do I need to go on? Or can I go to bed now?

WORK
WITH
ME
HERE,
R

That's a little too restrictive. It would, for example, rule out the Civil War and, probably, the Revolution. Moreover, self defense tends to disappear once the status quo ante bellum is satisfied, yet if one has been attacked, merely restoring that status quo won't prevent one from being attacked again. Thus, one legitimately carries over the war into the enemy's territory to eliminate his ability or change his attitude toward future attacks.

That's by no means an exclusive list.

765 MigueldowninMexico  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 3:07:26am

Still more Wilburys.
Hit it up, Mr. Zimmerman!

/Stop me or I keep it up!
:p

766 goddessoftheclassroom  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 3:10:18am

Good morning, Lizards!

767 Tom Kratman  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 3:11:01am

re: #694 MigueldowninMexico

And Kratman's vastly exceeds yours
lol

/Duh

I'm in the somewhat unusual position of not only being a lawyer (no, I don't practice since writing began to pay) and an infantryman, enlisted, nonc-com and officer (retired, old, broken down, with a bad ticker). This does tend to give me perspective on Law of Land Warfare that most soldiers and nearly all lawyers don't possess. No brag, just fact.

768 MigueldowninMexico  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 3:11:30am

Did you know that Elvis named Roy Orbison the best singer in the world?
I love Roy. More Wilburys :)

769 MigueldowninMexico  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 3:12:13am

re: #766 goddessoftheclassroom

Good morning, Lizards!


Good morning, goddess! :)

770 MigueldowninMexico  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 3:13:01am

re: #768 MigueldowninMexico

Did you know that Elvis named Roy Orbison the best singer in the world?
I love Roy. More Wilburys :)

Darn. Hit the first video in the list, please hehehe.

771 goddessoftheclassroom  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 3:13:12am

re: #768 MigueldowninMexico

Did you know that Elvis named Roy Orbison the best singer in the world?
I love Roy. More Wilburys :)

Every day I start my walk listening to Roy's "Pretty Woman." It give me such a lift!

772 freetoken  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 3:14:07am

Morning Miguel et al..

This thread has survived several hours... perhaps beyond its usefulness.

For a humor break I'd recommend George Gobel. Here is one of his shows from long ago... very well done.

Must go, but to end my broadcast day, singing us out..... Especially pick up Roy's solo starting around 47:00; most of the show is decent but suffered from production weaknesses.

773 MigueldowninMexico  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 3:14:11am

re: #767 Tom Kratman

I'm in the somewhat unusual position of not only being a lawyer (no, I don't practice since writing began to pay) and an infantryman, enlisted, nonc-com and officer (retired, old, broken down, with a bad ticker). This does tend to give me perspective on Law of Land Warfare that most soldiers and nearly all lawyers don't possess. No brag, just fact.

Well, nice knowing that :)
I do believe in war. I know it's absolutely necessary at times.
So I'm glad there are professionals dedicated to it.

774 kuffarharbi  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 3:14:32am

Another Holocaust is inevitable. Hell is unavoidable. History repeats itself. Collective memory is fading anyway. The world has, is and always will be a sea of blood.

775 MigueldowninMexico  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 3:15:52am

re: #771 goddessoftheclassroom

Every day I start my walk listening to Roy's "Pretty Woman." It give me such a lift!

Here :)

776 goddessoftheclassroom  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 3:16:22am

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Here's a real winner:

A man heckling First Lady Laura Bush and daughter Jenna outside the 92nd Street Y was arrested after he punched a wheelchair-bound girl whose parents had told him to shut up, authorities said Wednesday.

German Talis, 22, was shouting obscenities at the Bushes, who were leaving the building Tuesday, when he crossed paths with Wendy and John Lovetro and their daughter Maureen, 18, who has cerebral palsy.

They had been in the audience to hear the Bushes talk about their children's book, "Read All About It."

"He began yelling about Iraq and Iran at Jenna Bush. She was waving at the crowd. I told the guy, 'What are you doing? Shut up. This is about a child and books,' " said John Lovetro. "He was unperturbed. I said, 'Get out of here! You're being a moron!' "

The next thing he knew, Talis was allegedly punching Maureen, a fan of the first lady since meeting her in 2004.

777 MigueldowninMexico  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 3:17:17am

re: #772 freetoken

Good morning free! :)

778 goddessoftheclassroom  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 3:17:19am

re: #775 MigueldowninMexico

Here :)

{MIguelinMexico}

Have I told you lately that I love you?

MWAH!

/MERCY!

779 Tom Kratman  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 3:18:49am

re: #774 kuffarharbi

"History doesn't repeat itself...but it does _rhyme_."

780 sparrowlake  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 3:18:50am

IMHO:
If the Islamification of Europe is becoming the reality that so many fear, then what can those counties do to stop it, short of committing genocide or mass deportations?
I have seen no attractive answers here and I believe that the future viability of some countries in Europe will be increasingly in doubt.
Unless the non-Muslim populations of Europe are prepared to submit, I see the Balkans as the likely template for the future of much of Europe. There may eventually be a series of civil wars, failed states, ethnic cleansings, and eventual further fragmentation of Europe into Muslim and Christian states. The Balkanization of Europe will probably result in the destruction of democracy in many countries and its replacement with military dictatorships and Islamic regimes.
Those who advocate genocide or mass deportations must be condemned, however we must all recognize that the likely developments may be almost as bad or maybe even worse.
IOW, unless the Islamification of Europe is a figment of our imaginations and is not really happening, the Europe we know is probably screwed no matter what.
Now if we would just give the Palis a state all this nastiness would be avoided and everything would be just fine.

781 MigueldowninMexico  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 3:18:54am

re: #778 goddessoftheclassroom

{MIguelinMexico}

Have I told you lately that I love you?

MWAH!

/MERCY!

Hahahaha- Thanks!
{Goddess} :)

Do you know the Bollywood version of this song?

782 Tom Kratman  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 3:20:27am

re: #776 goddessoftheclassroom

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Here's a real winner:

One hopes that Mr Lovetro had the chance to damage Mr. Talis before the police intervened.

783 MigueldowninMexico  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 3:21:11am
784 MigueldowninMexico  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 3:22:35am

goddess
Wrong link oops.
Here's the good one. Heh.

785 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 3:27:46am

re: #774 kuffarharbi

Another Holocaust is inevitable. Hell is unavoidable. History repeats itself. Collective memory is fading anyway. The world has, is and always will be a sea of blood.

Well then- to hell with it all- let's just align with the fascists!

/I think I'll continue to hold out for something better.

786 MigueldowninMexico  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 3:31:53am

New Thread Alert.

Jumping up...

787 Mammamia  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 3:33:43am

I just read the condemned piece at Gates of Vienna and frankly do not see what all the fuss is about. It's an exercise of imagination. It goes under the heading "worst case scenario."

I believe that given the proven virulence of the Muslim ideology (wherever they have gained ascendency there has been a genocide - a disappearance - of other faiths and outlooks) and given past examples of what even so-called civilized people are capable of (the English invented concentration camps, the Italians aerial bombardment of defenseless citizens, Germany, the nation noted for logic and rigor went the craziest, etc.) it is hardly any sin pointing to possible dire consequences if present trends are left untouched and allowed to fester.

This is what the stories of the Flood, Sodom and Gamorrah etc. were all about: "Keep it up boys - go on giving the likes of Yasir Arafat a peace prize, go on financing Hamas, go on allowing your Kippa-hatted Jews and collared deacons to live in dread fear of Muslim violence, go on protecting the Captain Hook Imams who preach terror and go on surrendering vast swaths of territory to people who disregard the local law and demand Sharia and... and the proverbial poo-poo will hit the fan."

It will, it simply will, not because an "El Ingles" at a "Gates of Vienna" says so, but because God and good sense themselves say so. Evil ideologies have bad consequences.

I actually find it honest, on the part of the essayist, "El Ingles" - an Englishman (as the nick itself obviously indicates), portraying his fellow Englishmen not as proud heroes without blemish, but as potential blood-soaked crazies, as blood-soaked and crazy as any Spaniard - never mind on which side - of the Spanish Civil War or any Croat, Serb, Bosnian of the Balkan imbroglio.

Paradoxically, El Ingles is speaking the language of religion. He is not Frank Zappa cool, he is like an orthodox rabbi or swamp deacon predicting dire outcomes unless something drastic is done. But unlike the orthodox Jew or swamp deacon, he is not in an outward rage. One doesn't imagine him shaking his fist or on the verge of apoplexy. Very dispassionate, very British, he calmly and logically predicts a plunge... and unlike the Orthodox rabbi or swamp deacon, he's not griping about mini-skirts or sex with the wrong gender, but underneah it all, he's griping about the real religious sin of the age: that of no longer CARING in a real and physical way, that of no longer living in a world of ideals.

788 Elydo  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 3:45:20am

Aw damnit, I miss all the involved threads...

Especially as the advocation of genocide, or simple reality of the possibility, is something I've thought about quite a bit. It IS something that needs to be considered, if only for the fact that it makes reaching such an outcome less likely. You cannot manoeuvre towards or away from a course of action you have refused to consider. Those of us who read Bill Whittle (and wish he would write more) might remember that he himself has described such a situation.

It is very unfortunate that the GoV had to be the ones to write such a consideration of this topic, whilst it does need to be discussed, it needs to be discussed by those without blatant and morally-dubious leanings. IF, God Forbid, such a violent clash of civilisations inside our cities (I'm British) is inevitable, I would like to be on the winning side. Or surviving side, if you cannot consider anything about such a situation as victorious. If it is not inevitable, we need desperately to figure out how to avoid reaching that end point. To refuse to consider the eventuality out of moral sensibility is irresponsible.

At that, I do not believe the situation in Europe is so bad. Yet. Make no mistake, it IS trending that way. There are glimmer of the pendulum beginning to slow and reverse, but they are still only glimmers, and such embers must be fanned and protected, and watched carefully, else the only two outcomes are the fires crib death in a dispersing wisp of smoke, or conflagration. The main problem I see is that there are no eligible people to watch the fire. Europe's politicians are either actively importing voter bases due to their failing native support, refusing to admit there's any problem, or just hiding from it, or unable to do anything. This situation is getting worse. Meanwhile the populace is feeling increasingly ostracised from the political leadership, threatened by the immigrant situation and untrusting of any information that tells them they shouldn't be since it's so evident that the media and politico's are engaging in propaganda.

This situation is unstable and has very very few damping factors. And some people, like those at the GoV, will let their paranoia, rooted in fact and sense, spiral into delusion and irrationality. Other fringe groups will promote this for their own ends, and let us be honest, such a confrontation serves the Islamists, make no mistake. They are constantly trying to paint these times as a clash between Islam and the West, and Europe's fall into genocidal chaos would prove it to the entire Muslim world.

The best course of action the West can take is to fix our own tent. Slap the Left, and Right for that matter, till they wake up or shut up (Defining yourself by a bipartisan system is polarising, and polarisation only works for magnets and electronics. Everything else exists is a much more fuzzy state), reform the MSM so they either shut up or regain the ability to find the facts of a given story at least six times out of ten (y'know, more than half the time) and solidify our ranks against those arrayed against us. We do that, and external threats become much less able to assail us.

Addressing (Finally) the actual GoV article, I will say that, whatever his previous opinions he continuously refers to are (Let's not go back over them), the facts he references about Britain are unfortunately accurate.

However, genocide is not a course of action that should be advocated in any but the most severe circumstances. Nowhere in our world are such circumstances in effect right now. I do not see the evidence that Bodissey was overtly advocating it, I'm going to review the whole thing a couple more times, but it was irresponsible given the accusations levelled against the GoV to even approach the topic. Doing so has likely tainted the ability to seriously discuss such a sensitive issue. Not to mention the rabid lunacy almost certain to fill the comments...

789 sparrowlake  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 3:50:08am

re: #785 Sharmuta

Well then- to hell with it all- let's just align with the fascists!
/I think I'll continue to hold out for something better.

Let's HOLD ON.

790 mike_trivisonno  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 3:54:38am

I think we should just let the muslims kill of of us. It'll be easier that way. Just give up. And die.

Good plan to save a civilization, yeah?

791 sparrowlake  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 4:02:05am

re: #790 mike_trivisonno

I think we should just let the muslims kill of of us. It'll be easier that way. Just give up. And die.

Good plan to save a civilization, yeah?

We must fight against Islamification of the West in the marketplace of ideas, and by enforcement of our existing criminal and immigration statutes.

792 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 4:08:47am

re: #790 mike_trivisonno

Here's an idea- how about we not do that, and instead promote our ideals of Freedom, Equality and the Rule of Law to the islamic world? They might find they prefer it and be willing to defend it themselves- kind of like the Iraqis. Because Freedom is the antithesis of fascism.

793 Mammamia  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 4:34:08am

re: #788 Elydo


And some people, like those at the GoV, will let their paranoia, rooted in fact and sense, spiral into delusion and irrationality....

....Addressing (Finally) the actual GoV article, I will say that, whatever his previous opinions he continuously refers to are (Let's not go back over them), the facts he references about Britain are unfortunately accurate.

Dear Elydo,

"Paranoia rooted in fact and sense" is a humdinger! I mean - help me out here - if it's rooted in fact and sense then it's NOT paranoia, but genuine fear and worry.

Have the Muslims wiped out / seriously limited all other religions and outlooks wherever they have taken over? Have they brought absurd sexism, pedophilia, anti-semitism, circular logic (Ford makes the best cars because Ford motor company says so). Is there a war in every Muslim-heavy area with or bordering with other peoples?

Paranoia rooted in fact and sense my unwashed foot in your vanilla pudding. Ask any Israeli what sort of civilization awaits them should they drop their guard!

794 Elydo  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 4:41:14am

re: #793 Mammamia

That a paranoia is rooting in fact and sense can be the case when it started from a position of reasonable concern/fear but progressed into irrationality and neurosis. That I used the term paranoia was referring to the fact that such is their current state, progressed from the point where they were grounded in sense and reason. Also, the particular paranoia I was alluding to is not their concerns about what should happen under Islamic rule, but rather their concerns about the "inevitable" future of Europe: flames, savagery and ruin.

795 Tom Kratman  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 4:45:17am

re: #792 Sharmuta

Here's an idea- how about we not do that, and instead promote our ideals of Freedom, Equality and the Rule of Law to the islamic world? They might find they prefer it and be willing to defend it themselves- kind of like the Iraqis. Because Freedom is the antithesis of fascism.

You know, I _sure_ hope you're not an Arab female since I _do_ know what the name means. ;)

To promote those ideals sounds fine. To promote them _successfully_, however, seems to be a little problematic. We're trying it in Iraq and the jury is still out on the question. Personally, I don't expect anything approaching complete success there. There's an old Roman saying, damned if I can remember from who...Pliny, maybe...to the effect that nothing is stronger than custom.

There are things within our ideals that are simply anathema to them, that they perhaps can never accept. Women. They're not going to accept equality for women; they won't even accept it when they're surrounded by it, as they are in Europe. And without that they're never going to be all that prosperous. Possibly worse, how are we going to convince them that physical labor isn't degrading?

Look, I'm in favor of the war in Iraq, especially now that we're in it and can't afford to lose, but I've got essentially no hope of creating a western style, ruled in accordance with law, egalitarian society or democratic government there. I just don't see it happening in the short term or surviving in the long. Wish I did.

796 jenv  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 5:00:12am

re: #519 redc1c4

so then, enforce the laws.


How wonderfully vacuous. What does that mean? Are you willing to accept injury or death to civilians in order to accomplish it, or will you be screaming "genocide" instead? The people accusing the Europeans of genocidal sympathies have so far been curiously unable to provide any details as to what they would do to quell Muslim violence and lawlessness were they in charge, and what levels of injuries and/or death, if any, they would accept to prosecuting their plan. It makes me wonder if it's more important to them to feel the rush of righteous sanctimony than to offer real solutions to the problem.

797 American Jewess In Jerusalem  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 5:04:00am

re: #787 Mammamia

Mammamia, it's no use trying to discuss those ideas here, even though I agree with you. There is an ongoing battle between members of this board and GOV commenters. It doesn't matter if the GOV says something sensible (and obviously, they sometimes do), their involvement with white supremicists and their origins in Nazism have led some to decide that we can never give them an inch. I can't argue with that decision; it's basically sound. One does have to exercise caution and wisdom when choosing allies. It does bother me, though, when a commenter here tries to discuss possible realities that are not pleasant, and gets labeled a GOV troll or has ideas falsely attributed to him, and then attacked relentlessly for it. There can sometimes be a bit of hysteria like that here.

798 American Jewess In Jerusalem  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 5:06:56am

re: #793 Mammamia


For example, why is this comment of Mammamia's dinged? WHAT did she say that was objectionable?

799 jenv  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 5:07:44am

re: #523 Jokey401

"Bemoaning the alleged rise of "genocidal Nazi ideology" may make you feel good, but it's ultimately meaningless. Instead, how about explaining in specific detail what you would do in their shoes?"

Word.


Was there a point to this? Is "word" a code for your grand plan, detailed elsewhere? I'm sure it makes you feel good to slam me, but how does that help our European brothers solve their problems?

800 Roger  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 5:10:41am

Wow! Check out Conservative Swede's commentFreudian slip!

It's never a good idea for any nation to have a large and/or influential minority with a clearly separate identity, a distinct ethnicity.This applies to Jews, ...

...

After the decisive discontinuity, described here by El Inglés, has taken place, we should expect laws forbidding Jews and Catholics having higher positions anywhere in our societies. Both regarding authorities and positions such as editor of a newspaper. Uniculturalism will be in focus, and not other ethnic group will be given a special status. This is my prediction, and it's logical to assume.

Unbelievable! Right out of Mein Kampf!

801 American Jewess In Jerusalem  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 5:12:53am

re: #799 jenv

Jen, I don't know what "word" means, but judging from all of Jokey's comments, I'm pretty sure he's on your side.

802 mikedevx  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 5:13:16am

I do not understand the *fierceness* of the response here to the article at Gates Of Vienna by El Ingles. In addition, I don't think anyone here is refuting his argument very well.

His points appear to be:
1. Islamization is proceeding across all of Europe, and the EU is blatantly sympatico with it, primarily because this weakens the influence of national governments.
2. There are many other current solutions to the loss of Western identity across all of Europe, but there is little to no political capability to accomplish them. Nothing will be done... and the situation will continue to worsen.
3. As demographics and immigration policy continue current trends, it ensures that the Muslim population will grow. This population is alarmingly fundamentalist and jihadist. Not all of it, but far more of it than anyone even here at LGF will admit. At a certain point, when the population percentage passes certain points, they become more and more insistent and then violent, and then oppressive. It is the way of Sharia, and the way of jihadism.
4. This is the big point: If all other possible solutions are allowed to pass away, then eventually your options narrow. Nationalism - which the EU will fiercely oppose - would eventually become the only option remaining other than surrender. Some people will not surrender.
5. Europe has a loooooong history of genocide when it comes to popular movements. What's to stop it from happening again?

So I would ask, what are the SPECIFIC alternatives to the scary outline that El Ingles laid out. I admit he seems to be gleefully dancing on the grave, but if it is not in fact a grave via surrender or genocide, then does anyone have ANY specifics as to how surrender or genocide are not the only possible options for preserving a western identity across Europe?

The passivity and secularization across all of Europe; the hostility of the EU to national identities; the support for massive non-Western immigration; the demographic tide... either the battle is already over or they they fight only after most options are already gone. When Europe fights, LOADS of people die.

803 American Jewess In Jerusalem  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 5:16:56am

re: #800 Roger


Well, that's creepy.

You know, those at GOV who are NOT Nazis should just splinter off and form their own group. And if they won't, well, then you do have to wonder.

804 sparrowlake  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 5:26:51am

re: #793 Mammamia

"sense my unwashed foot in your vanilla pudding"

Please, let me eat my waffle.

805 BabbaZee  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 5:28:00am

re: #586 Age Of Freedom

It's just kind of weird we read all the endless streams of horrible atrocities exposing Islam on LGF that reads extra danger, and suddenly everyone gets an aversion to what bitter europeans are saying about themselves against Muslims. Say David Duke was also anti-Jihad, would we give a rats ass about it?


My aversion is to their alliance with White Supremacists and eo Nazis.
and BTW
Yes I give a rats ass,
David Duke IS aligned with the VB et al, read the articles at the link to my site in the first post to you for more.

Here are all his lovely speeches in Flanders

806 BabbaZee  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 5:28:41am

Lost my N

Neo Nazis

807 Charles  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 5:31:47am

Those of you who think mass deportation is a grand idea should stop for a few seconds and think about what it really means.

Massive dislocations of families, many of whom are good citizens and have no intention of becoming jihadis. An unbelievable outcry from decent people who are appalled. A vast expansion of police and government power.

Do you seriously believe something like this can happen without mass violence?

The simple fact is that the difference between calling for mass deportations and calling for genocide is just a difference in degree. You cannot accomplish something like that without killing a lot of people, period -- and without instituting a fascist police state that would look an awful lot like the Third Reich.

808 elandadem  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 5:33:37am

Bodissey is an idiot in more ways than one.

Europeans will never rise up - there has been a more placid flock of sheep than present day Europeans. All they have the intestinal fortitude to accomplish is to roll over and show their bellies.

809 sparrowlake  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 5:40:30am

re: #802 mikedevx

I do not understand the *fierceness* of the response here to the article at Gates Of Vienna by El Ingles.
...When Europe fights, LOADS of people die.

You answered your own question.
The fierceness of the response is at the gloomy prospect that millions will probably die in Europe again, whether via ethnic cleansing, civil wars or interstate warfare.
Some of us choose to cling to our democratic ideals.

810 Mammamia  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 5:44:37am

re: #794 Elydo

That a paranoia is rooting in fact and sense can be the case when it started from a position of reasonable concern/fear but progressed into irrationality and neurosis. That I used the term paranoia was referring to the fact that such is their current state, progressed from the point where they were grounded in sense and reason. Also, the particular paranoia I was alluding to is not their concerns about what should happen under Islamic rule, but rather their concerns about the "inevitable" future of Europe: flames, savagery and ruin.

Ciao Elydo,

Thanks for your answer. You are telling me that the site's description of Islamic encroachment and the idea of strife (civil war)which said Islamic encroachment will engender progressed (sic) from reasonable concern / fear to irrationality and neurosis?

So when the Iranian nut job declares that he wants to blow up Israel or when the Imam of Antwerp / Rome / Paris / Aleppo / Madrid defends suicide bombers and when my sister has to taste her baby's formula in front of a controller and my 85 year old dad has to take off his shoes and when I get frisked before entering the Vatican and when a Jew with a Yamulka in no longer safe in most western European cities and when Dutch Parliamentarians need escorts and must live in hiding and when when when (dimmi quando quando quando)... WE have "progressed" to neurosis and irrationality in thinking... "this crap will only get worse with more Muslims"?

When most of the crimes are committed by youths from nowhere, when ambulances need a police escort to enter the many new no-go zones, when rapes are blamed on the girls, when anti-terrorist forces must work 72 hours a day and be lucky (Remember all the Jumbo Jets they wanted to knock down simultaneously)? When the mothers of suicide bombers get elected into Palestinian Parliaments and when the same people who award the smartest people in the world give a peace prize to the inventor of modern terrorism - said terrorism being defended and sponsored in hundreds and hundreds of mosques sprouting everywhere in Europe... bla bla bla... you talk about reasonable concern/fear progressing into irrationality and neurosis because some people see real bad times a-brewing - strife, clash, conflict which has been the case 100% of the time everywhere with Islam?

My friend, these days one is either paranoid or featherbrained.

Fortunately, in my country, the so-called xenophobic Fascists are now part of the government which is National (movmento sociale), regional (the Northern League) and personal (Berlusconi).

I strongly suggest this approach for other European countries (chances are they will come about naturally) so that the social-conservarive and anti-immigration parties can get a new lease on life.

BTW, it's a funny world with the Olympics being held in China... China as in 60 million in-house murders with the peroetrator still on display in a mausoleum and his heirs still in power killing the Tibetans... and people get upset with the antics of the Lega Nord.

811 sparrowlake  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 5:49:19am

re: #805 BabbaZee

Good morning, Babba.
As usual you are right on.
I wouldn't cry if Duke were summarily transmogrified or otherwise
changed.

812 BabbaZee  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 5:51:57am

re: #811 sparrowlake

{Sparrow}

C'mon upstairs

813 BabbaZee  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 5:52:47am

re: #807 Charles

AGGHH
That down ding was supposed to be an upding

but you knew that

/hands are not so nimble today

814 guftafs  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 6:03:22am

re: #807 Charles

Don't see how it could happen without a totalitarian dictatorship cowing the whole population first with terror. Anyone seriously even hypothesizing over such an idea is plain nuts. Bodissey's daydreaming says everything you need to know about him, the people he chooses to support and those who stand by him.

815 nadadhimmi  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 6:09:01am

Given Europe's history, I would say that is a reasonable and true statement. They will suddenly awake, and realize they have been forced into making a choice, seeing their children beheaded or killing the invaders. Well what the fuck would you rather they do?. Type out very nice condemnations of genocide on their laptops, sipping coffe?. This isn't just internet shit, people, this is the real fucking thing. When reasonable people have a kill or be killed situation forced upon them, they revert into self defense mode.. My Dad liberated Erdruff, and he saw and impressed upon me, 1st hand, what people are capable of.....

816 dmjboose  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 6:11:00am

Great post. To be honest, I thought more of the people at LGF were ok with this kind of thing. I love it when I'm proven wrong.

817 anotherindyfilmguy  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 6:24:37am

Does Europe have a soft answer to Islam? The difference between what was done to the Jews under Hitler and the modern situation is this:

Hitler fabricated the need for the holocaust (not difficult to do considering ancient blood libels/prejudices etc) and carried it out against a population that could not effectively resist. That population that had attempted to peacefully integrate with the host societies for many generations and, without knowing what was coming, for the most part obeyed the laws that put them in the camps.

However, Islam is an aggressive alien religion that is trying to take over the world and says (or at least gives the image) as much in Friday prayers, literature, attacking critics both in the press and physically etc ad nauseum and is not interested in peacefully integrating into the host society - just surviving the culture clash without change long enough to take over. The only thing that might prevent genocide (in the long term, either way) is the peaceful integration of the immigrants, which literally means change on the part of the immigrants to adapt into the host societies. If that doesn't happen then the backlash will be severe when the average person becomes afraid and demands the government do something to prevent their daughters from gang rape, their own selves from being treated like cattle to be milked or slaughtered etc (add charges as needed, the governments in charge will add to the list to justify any harsh action once they are controlled by reactionist politics).

818 american jewess in jerusalem  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 6:28:26am

I don't know this guy, don't know what he has previously written, so can't evaluate this excerpt in the context of his overall character, but if I merely look at what Charles has posted here, I can't see any "incitement to genocide." Stating that people who get fed up can get mighty hateful and murderous seems pretty obvious, no? Stating the possibility of an action is not equivalent to advocating that action. If it is, then there are a whole lot of lizards in the doghouse.

Why not highlight the next sentence instead:

Our unspoken conviction that we, in 21st-century Europe, have moved beyond such savagery will be shown to be an arrogance founded on a few decades of fragile peace and prosperity, taken for granted and allowed to slip through our fingers for no reason at all.

This sounds pretty reasonable. So ding me!

819 Elydo  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 6:33:01am

re: #810 Mammamia

I regard it as paranoia when the only outcomes that can be seen from a particular point of view are surrender or genocide, when the buildings around you are still standing.

To be left with only those options, your situation must already be pretty poor. In fact, I don't think I can conceive of a situation, a rarity for me, where genocide could ever be advocated as a pre-emptive measure. Considered yes, as I have said. But honestly put forward as a favourable course of action? Even I can't go that far, and I can go further down an amoral road than most posters here. I just know where unpleasant reality, survival over-riding tender ethics, ends and horror begins.

Machiavelli's argument is widely misunderstood, and the GoV has moved to the wrong side of it.

820 Elydo  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 6:39:28am

re: #818 american jewess in jerusalem

No, I agree with that point. Most won't, or can't bring themselves to, but it's true where-ever you look in history. Survival over-rides society. And Whilst I also don't see the advocation for genocide, Bodissey does also fail in his stated aim to provide a dispassionate argument of the options. Given this, and the past controversy surrounding the GoV, it was foolish for him to try and make the point at all.

I've been wanting to have this discussion for a long time, but there has never been a good way to lead into it. This wasn't a good way... Which is unfortunate given the wider implications. If a controlled genocide is Europe is a nightmare from history, I regard the unprecedented measure of genociding most of the middle east as a distinct possibility if the worst case scenario I can think of happens. Or scenario's, plural, as there are several ways it could happen. The less we consider the possibility, the more likely it is to happen.

821 Chuck Pelto  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 6:46:57am

TO: GoVers and LGFers
RE: Too Funny

"Welcome to our LGF trolls!" -- Sodra Djavul@GoV

"Well, you could open registration for a while and allow us to troll hunt. You know they are banging on the door right now." -- Sol Roth@LGF

You guys are so much alike.

Where's the Shakespeare of our age when we REALLY need one?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. Who wants the Capulette colors? Who the Montigue?

822 Tigger2005  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 6:49:08am

re: #7 Killgore Trout

Concentration camps, genocide, mass deportations. This is old school fascism in it's raw form. Wanna bet they're also Darwinists?

What the f*ck is this supposed to mean?

823 Chuck Pelto  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 6:50:21am

TO: Charles Johnson, et al.
RE: What Does It All Mean?!?!?!

"Those of you who think mass deportation is a grand idea should stop for a few seconds and think about what it really means." -- Charles Johnson

Yes. Let's look at it. In the cold light of reality. Without all this troll-mongering.

Wouldn't that be nice?

Who has done a serious—as we'd say in the Army—Staff Study? I'm sure DHS has. But I doubt if they'll show it to US.

So, in the meantime, all we can do is discuss it amongst ourselves. And, hopefuly, without too much vitriol.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Discussion: A method of confirming others in their errors.]

824 Shr_Nfr  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 6:50:21am

If they turn off the dole, it would have a beneficial effect on all concerned.

825 Tigger2005  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 6:57:09am

re: #818 american jewess in jerusalem

I don't know this guy, don't know what he has previously written, so can't evaluate this excerpt in the context of his overall character, but if I merely look at what Charles has posted here, I can't see any "incitement to genocide." Stating that people who get fed up can get mighty hateful and murderous seems pretty obvious, no? Stating the possibility of an action is not equivalent to advocating that action. If it is, then there are a whole lot of lizards in the doghouse.

Why not highlight the next sentence instead:

Our unspoken conviction that we, in 21st-century Europe, have moved beyond such savagery will be shown to be an arrogance founded on a few decades of fragile peace and prosperity, taken for granted and allowed to slip through our fingers for no reason at all.

This sounds pretty reasonable. So ding me!

But Europe has not even STARTED trying other alternatives ... compulsory assimilation, permitting honest analysis and outspoken criticism of Islam, stopping all immigration, expelling the very worst advocates of jihad. And how about native, cultural Europeans rediscovering marriage, family, CHILDREN?

I think limited deportation has to happen but there are many options to prevent things from ever getting as bad as this guy seems to want them to get.

826 Tigger2005  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 6:58:56am

re: #825 Tigger2005

expelling the very worst advocates of jihad.

Actually, I should have said, "expelling any and all advocates of jihad."

827 Charles  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 7:00:31am

re: #818 american jewess in jerusalem

I don't know this guy, don't know what he has previously written, so can't evaluate this excerpt in the context of his overall character, but if I merely look at what Charles has posted here, I can't see any "incitement to genocide." Stating that people who get fed up can get mighty hateful and murderous seems pretty obvious, no? Stating the possibility of an action is not equivalent to advocating that action. If it is, then there are a whole lot of lizards in the doghouse.

Why not highlight the next sentence instead:

Our unspoken conviction that we, in 21st-century Europe, have moved beyond such savagery will be shown to be an arrogance founded on a few decades of fragile peace and prosperity, taken for granted and allowed to slip through our fingers for no reason at all.

This sounds pretty reasonable. So ding me!

That sounds reasonable to you?

He's saying that Europeans need to become savage murderers, in order to "start killing anything that looks remotely Muslim."

That's reasonable? Are you nuts?

828 Roger  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 7:05:33am

re: #826 Tigger2005

Psst. The State Dept doesn't want you saying the j word any more.

829 bitsy  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 7:06:42am

re: #824 Shr_Nfr

Good point. I have often wondered if the welfare benefits aren't as much as a problem as the immigration policy.

830 Fat Jolly Penguin  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 7:07:50am

re: #828 Roger

Psst. The State Dept doesn't want you saying the j word any more.

Poor babies.

831 Elydo  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 7:09:20am

re: #827 Charles

He's not saying they need to, Charles, he's saying they will. And he's right, under the limited conditions of the quoted text. The exact point being made in that element Jewess has quoted is true, where-ever you go in the world.

The massive problem, and my does problem seem like too tame a word, is that he is envisioning such an outcome under some sort of controls or guidance, which is not only next to impossible, but a tacit support of the scenario. I've already given my views on that.

832 Charles  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 7:13:41am

re: #831 Elydo

He's not saying they need to, Charles, he's saying they will. And he's right, under the limited conditions of the quoted text. The exact point being made in that element Jewess has quoted is true, where-ever you go in the world.

The massive problem, and my does problem seem like too tame a word, is that he is envisioning such an outcome under some sort of controls or guidance, which is not only next to impossible, but a tacit support of the scenario. I've already given my views on that.

No, that is not correct. He is saying that Europeans will be unable to become savage murderers, and let their culture "slip through their fingers for no reason."

He very obviously believes that Europeans need to overcome their scruples about mass murder. If you want to believe he doesn't, that's your choice -- but the article just reeks of fascist ideology.

833 littleO  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 7:15:33am

The discussion is, is there war in the world? yes! Is there regenerative war in the Muslim world? Yes! Are the Governments and political forces in the world unified and responsive enough to control, let alone solve, a radical Islamic uprising that treatens global war?
I am afraid the answers are NO.

Bush has been bashed for years by unreasoned political forces. Of course, there have been tactical errors in this war, as in any war. those errors cost precious lives and resources. But, if the US had not trust the spear head through the center of the middle-east our position now would be precarious indeed.

Yet, the question posed was about Europe. Look at Europe past position. They would be elitist and isolationist and deniers to the end. this is there downfall. Will another war erupt in Europe> probability 50-50.

834 yma o hyd  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 7:15:50am

Late to this thread - sullied my eyes reading some of the linked article - that man is insane! He needs to be institutionalised. Immediately.
Shall now go back to reading all the comments from you Lizards, to clean my brain from that disgusting rubbish written in that article.

835 BabbaZee  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 7:19:47am
but the article just reeks of fascist ideology.

If violence does erupt in European countries between natives and Muslims, I consider it highly likely that people who had never done anything more violent than beat eggs will prove incapable of managing the psychological transition to controlled violence and start killing anything that looks remotely Muslim. Our unspoken conviction that we, in 21st-century Europe, have moved beyond such savagery will be shown to be an arrogance founded on a few decades of fragile peace and prosperity, taken for granted and allowed to slip through our fingers for no reason at all.


It certainly does, Ollie.

836 Roger  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 7:22:23am

re: #835 BabbaZee

You might want Charles to fix the quote for you. Unfamiliar people might think you wrote it.

837 BabbaZee  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 7:25:09am

re: #836 Roger

I wonder why it didn't take?

Anway .... it's really very very basic

You do not trade your imported genocidal theocrassholes for domestic genocidal assholes.

All you do is switch the costume your problem is wearing.

You do not solve the problem.

838 Elydo  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 7:27:04am

re: #832 Charles

That isn't the read I get from that section.

"I am happy to be corrected on this point, but I have gained the impression from various sources over the years that it is precisely those who are plunged into violence without having been conditioned to deal with it psychologically, in whatever manner, that are most likely to commit atrocities (excluding those who are already ideologically committed to them). If violence does erupt in European countries between natives and Muslims, I consider it highly likely that people who had never done anything more violent than beat eggs will prove incapable of managing the psychological transition to controlled violence and start killing anything that looks remotely Muslim. Our unspoken conviction that we, in 21st-century Europe, have moved beyond such savagery will be shown to be an arrogance founded on a few decades of fragile peace and prosperity, taken for granted and allowed to slip through our fingers for no reason at all."

We can discuss how "happy" he might be to be corrected on the point, but the point he makes is correct.

"it is precisely those who are plunged into violence without having been conditioned to deal with it psychologically, in whatever manner, that are most likely to commit atrocities"

Yes.

"If violence does erupt in European countries between natives and Muslims, I consider it highly likely that people who had never done anything more violent than beat eggs will prove incapable of managing the psychological transition to controlled violence and start killing anything that looks remotely Muslim."

A logical assumption given the previous point. I'd argue about how widespread it would be, but it would happen. Once pushed so far that societal control influence no longer apply, there's very little remaining control influences left. Most people have no introspective self-control, they rely on external methods. Remove those, typically through a process of pushing until they shatter, already an introduction of violence, and there's nothing left but polarisation. Us and Them.


"Our unspoken conviction that we, in 21st-century Europe, have moved beyond such savagery will be shown to be an arrogance founded on a few decades of fragile peace and prosperity, taken for granted and allowed to slip through our fingers for no reason at all."

The reality that humans are not inherently moral creatures, incapable of primal savagery and brutality is a comfortable fiction people use to hide from really unpleasant truths. It is a high from of irony that that self-same mechanism makes them less resistant to such realities. And the "slip through our fingers for no reason at all." I take as referring to the absence of any action to try and stop the Islamisation. I could be being too kind here though...

839 BabbaZee  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 7:29:09am

re: #836 Roger

The reason this staggering fascist asshole believes that Europe can not "control it's savagery" is because Europe abandoned the contract against barbarity and replaced it with secular socialism almost a century ago , thereby creating a double barreled vacuum that has been filled by Islam and the New Fascists of the Right and Left

This is our object lesson here
but I doubt we will learn much from it

840 Elydo  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 7:34:51am

re: #839 BabbaZee

That's a bit of an over-simplification Babba. There are cultures without the Ten Commandments which never fell into, and still don't approach, barbarity, and examples through history of barbarity being carried out, incorrectly, in the name of them.

841 Charles  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 7:35:24am

re: #838 Elydo

This is ridiculous. You can parse the article all you like, but the fact is that he is advocating violence. He says there will either be "controlled violence" or "uncontrolled violence," and it's very clear that he doesn't have much of a problem with either scenario.

If I wrote something like this pile of fascist garbage, I would be pilloried, and I'd deserve it. If you want to search for a way to make it less disgusting, go right ahead.

842 Elydo  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 7:38:34am

re: #841 Charles

I'm not trying to defend him. I'm trying to defend the ability to discuss underlying point he raises, poorly, and then drives in his own direction. I've made my own stance on his exact article above. Now I'm only addressing standalone points, without trying to feed them back into any type of support for the larger argument he makes. He does make points which are individually correct, whilst still managing overall to be wrong.

843 abolitionist  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 7:39:14am

re: #615 Killgore Trout

Lgf Is getting a lot of referrals from this site. Anyone know what it is?


For what it's worth,

Server: [Link: www.hetvrijevolk.com...]
IP Address: 208.113.204.49
Organization: New Dream Network, LLC
Country: United States
City, State: Brea, CA

844 Chuck Pelto  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 7:53:03am

TO: Charles Johnson
RE: Taking Thinks Out of Context

"He's saying that Europeans need to become savage murderers, in order to "start killing anything that looks remotely Muslim."" -- Charles Johnson

Where is he saying that? Here?

"If violence does erupt in European countries between natives and Muslims, I consider it highly likely that people who had never done anything more violent than beat eggs will prove incapable of managing the psychological transition to controlled violence and start killing anything that looks remotely Muslim. " -- Baron Bodissey

This looks to me more like staff-pukeese, having been staff puke myself on more than one occasion.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The field behind rhetoric is oft mined with equivocation.]

845 bitsy  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 7:53:11am

Well, it is quite breath taking how quickly GoV went from "they're not white supremacists" to "Okay they are, but we only agree with them on the counter jihad" all the way to "let's talk about genocide--hypothetically." As the cliche goes: lie down with the dogs, wake up with the fleas. GoV has some mighty big neo-nazi fleas on it's back right now.

You can splice hairs all you want about whether they are advocating genocide/concentration camps or just warning of it's inevitability (I didn't see too much talk of avoiding it), but the plain truth is, they are certainly discrediting the counter-jihad movement, just like Charles and Robert Spencer have predicted they would all along.

846 BabbaZee  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 7:56:05am

FYI:

ENTRYISM


A political tactic in which an extremist organizations and groups intentionally infiltrate legitimate mainstream organizations in an attempt to gain recruits, and gain influence and power, obtain plausible deniability for their real agendas with their ultimate goal being to take control of the legitimate structure.

The technique is commonly used by extremists of both the left and the right in order to enter and co opt more centrist groups, thereby providing political cover for their extremist agendas and gaining them access to mainstream political power.

In situations where the larger organization is hostile to entryism, said entryists engage in taqiyya to hide the fact that they are, in fact, an organization in their own right.

847 nyc redneck  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 7:56:10am

re: #443 ploome hineni

what if that is the only 'means'

how do we stop it?

i'd like to know if, and to what extent, assimilation is working in europe. we do know that moslem violence is escalating, as their numbers grow. the first step, to get a handle on the problem, is to stop moslem immigration, NOW. why keep letting them in when there are so many problems caused by such deep cultural difference.

848 BabbaZee  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 7:56:44am

re: #840 Elydo

Name them

849 Chuck Pelto  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 8:02:08am

TO: bitsy
RE: Strange Bedfellows, Indeed

"GoV has some mighty big neo-nazi fleas on it's back right now." -- bitsy

Could well be. But I've seen groups like the good reverend Phelps and bloody-minded imams in agreement over certain narrow issues as well; homosexuality for one.

On the other hand, I'm certain that in some other areas we'd find that LGFers and the good reverend Phelps might be in agreement.

This is not to say that LGF supports the good reverend Phelps, rather that on occasion, even the best of enemies can agree on some thinks.

I'm surrounded by Democrats in my community. But we all agree on some certain issues; mostly local in scope.

Should I despise them, and have nothing whatever to do with them, because they support Obama or Clinton?

RE: What Should LGFers Do?

I'd suggest doing what you do bitsy. Pointing out the problem as opposed to what some others around here are doing. Getting rid of the poisonous parochial attitudes would be a good start.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Politics is a deleterious profession, like some poisonous handicrafts. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson]

850 kuffarharbi  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 8:02:49am

Charles....European history has been one of relentless barbarity and persecutions. What makes you think the future will be different when the underlying cause of violence has not been faced and understood. Given the present circumstances and the demographic explosion in Europe of a community that despises democracy, freedom of conscience, equal rights for all, and holds sacrosanct and adulates a psychopathic mass murderer from the 7th century, then I would say that more violence is inevitable.

851 bitsy  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 8:03:01am

re: #846 BabbaZee

Good point Babba. White supremacists are capable of their own taqiyya.

852 Elydo  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 8:05:09am

re: #848 BabbaZee

Spanish Inquisition

Salem Witch Trials

Stoning in the Bible

Which in fact Moses apparently did as soon as he came down off the mountain and found the party of the idolaters.

Situations where, despite the presence of the principles of the Ten Commandments, in varying amounts of depth and acknowledgement, barbarity can be considered to have occurred. Not because of the Ten Commandments, but despite them.

An adherence, or even proximity, to the Ten Commandments does not serve as an automatic shield from what modern times consider barbarity. All they do is serve as guidance which must be accepted and followed in order to promote a better society.

853 BabbaZee  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 8:05:25am

re: #850 kuffarharbi



.European HUMAN history has been one of relentless barbarity and persecutions.

Fixed that for you.

Violence may be inevitable.
This does not mean you trade one set of violent assholes for another.

854 BabbaZee  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 8:08:40am

re: #852 Elydo

You have not answered the question I asked,
you have instead shifted the focus of the subject.

I am not going to defend the Judeo-Christian belief system to you.

First of all I do not have the time.

Second of all I do not have the inclination
or the need to do so.

The fact that you could not answer the question posed, and instead posted a deflection,
answers the question to my satisfaction.

855 littleO  Fri, Apr 25, 2008 8:08:46am