In short, people who think like that are bat-shat nuts.

The author of the GoV piece exhibits all the signs of a regressive response to anxiety.

I think he has more psychological problems than just that.

Liberalism is a mental disorder, after all...

Real solutions to problems (particularly those involving people) are never simple.

OT

2nd dumbest media question of the day

" What are the chances of capturing the Shark?"

Oh about the same as finding it in your garage.

Double Dumbass.

The future of Europe is darker than that I thought

re: #3 Fat Jolly Penguin

And there is a book on that subject too

I found the article to be disgusting myself. But there has so far been genocide, or the more PC "ethnic cleansing" in places in recent years involving the ROP...

Genocide by the ROP against NON ROP'ers. Such as in Darfur.

This should not and cannot be ignored. Indeed, if there is to be genocide as a result of the rise of islam, it will be by the muslims to wipe out the remaining non muslim population. Then they will turn the sword on muslims not muslim enough for them.

This topic is so boring. I hate when it comes up on LGF.

And that El Ingles cree commented over at ShrinkWrapped as well. Dymphna as well.

Dymphna is especially deranged, IMHO.

I have admired your refusal to indulge in armchair psychoanalyzing. It is, at the very least, a boundary violation. Before this post, I would have been willing to swear that you were incapable of this. I have been disabused of that notion.

If El Ingles essay is so obviously an example of regressive anxiety, how would you characterize Swift's "A Modest Proposal"?

Your response to his essay is disappointing and unenlightening, to say the least. In my opinion what you have done is also unprofessional. It is presumptuous to assign a psychiatric label to another human being based on one essay.

It wouldn't be so bad if you hadn't already indulged in a heavy case of awfulizing a situation previously yourself.

I am saddened by what you have done.

She should speak for herself. We are rather saddened that she chose to ally with fascists and taint our cause of freedom.

Hey Jammie, if you are out there, you just got mail :)

If the Islamists suddenly found themselves with no infidels to hate, they'd make killing each other a full time occupation. Why is the concept so difficult to grasp?

There has to be a middle ground between genocide and joining the caliphate. If Western values are superior (and I believe they are), we have to be willing to fight for them. I could imagine European Muslims freeing themselves from the grip of Islamic extremism, although right now they're being held hostage by the militants. However, if we aren't willing to uphold Western values, we have no reason to expect Muslims to embrace them.

He posits Islam as an existential threat to Europe and from that first assumption, several other assumptions and their attendant conclusions follow. A second assumption is that Europe has specific cultural and ethnic attributes that must be preserved at all costs.

Um....Anyone know a good shrink for me, cause, I see nothing wrong it that (accept for the "all costs" because that apparently is referring to genocide at the worse or murder at the least.)

Europe has a culture. Beethoven, Shakespeare, you know, the usual suspects.

It is under threat. Read Eurabia.

(and what's a "Palestine?)

Many Muslims around the world may cheer when Israeli, American, or European infidels are murdered in the name of Islam but the vast majority have no interest in entering an existential fight they know they would lose.

I don't agree with that statement.

Fundamentalist Islam's rigidity means that it is fragile. It does not stand up well to exposure to ridicule. Many Muslims applauded the rioting that followed the cartoon Jihad, but many more were embarrassed by their co-religionists excesses.

I told you, embarrassment will bring victory, many many times.

It is not a coincidence that once exposed to the scrutiny of the international community, apostates are now routinely being spared the death penalty Islam has traditionally demanded, women who have been raped are not being stoned to death, and FGM (female genital mutilation) is being increasingly criticized from within Islam itself. Further, there is an immense fifth column living within the heart of Muslim populations that, once engaged and exploited, will destabilize Islam as never before.

I don't agree.

Europe may yet commit cultural suicide, but genocide as a defense is indefensible.

I agree.

OT, but Abbasshole says no progress was made in talks with Bush

(Note: it is a typically slanted AP article, not written by the Jerusalem Post)

Basically, Abbasshole is pissed that Bush and Rice aren't pressuring Israel to stop building "settlements" and withdraw to 67 borders, so the Palis can kill them more easily.

re: #3 Fat Jolly Penguin

Liberalism is a mental disorder, after all...

That doesn't address the point.

re: #12 annelid

you're right

re: #14 markie

Correct. They have been killing each other for the past 1400 yrs

"..no alternatives to genocide...'

God, what a horrifying concept, regardless of the target of the genocide/religicide or whatever 'cide' you choose to support or accept, no matter how tacitly.

re: #12 annelid

Oh, dear.

Why on earth are you so despairing?

re: #18 Dianna

That doesn't address the point.

Yes, I know. It was a semi-sarcastic response to the "psychological malfunctions" bit.

The author of the orignal piece is in the comments playing the victim card. Basically - the old, handy-dandy out of context meme.

There is no excuse or reason to speculate on when geneocide would be a good thing.

I said on the thread yesterday that I sure hope we don't have to go back to Europe to prevent another Holocaust, this time against the Muslims. I hate islam, but for pete's sake... Genocide? WTF?

s

Genocide offers an imagined simple solution for often intractable problems.

Indeed- the victims are merely scapegoats, while the underlying problems remain unfixed. If all the muslims in europe were to leave tomorrow- europe would still have massive issues- mostly stemming from socialism- the real cause of most of their problems.

re: #10 thesavagenation

This topic is so boring. I hate when it comes up on LGF.

BORING? Making people aware of this kind of thinking is BORING?

Wow.

re: #5 Persian Shoe

OT

2nd dumbest media question of the day

" What are the chances of capturing the Shark?"

Oh about the same as finding it in your garage.

Double Dumbass.

Rates up there with one of the official comments of "Who ever heard of a shark attack?"

Genocide may have “worked” at one time in human history, but just as trepaning and bleeding with leeches is no longer considered state of the art medical treatment, genocide is no longer considered an acceptable solution to the problems it purports to address.

Problems:

1. Genocide has never "worked".
2. Genocide is never acceptable under any circumstances, and never was acceptable except by totalitarian governments, which by themselves are unacceptable.
3. Leeches at least have a use in medicine, and are even used today. Genocide never served any purposed but to express raw hatred against a group, usually for imagined wrongs.

That the Islamic problem is profound in Europe is clear.
It is also clear that a great portion of Islam seeks at the very least a cultural cleansing of Europe.
Genocide can never be the answer. You then become people every bit as bad or worse than the targeted population.
It seems to me that the answer is to resist Muslim demands for the host to modify & grant special privileges. The laws need to be strictly enforced.
The goal is to assimilate those that will assimilate & make the others so uncomfortable that the will go to a Muslim country.
And no foot baths or halal meals at school.It is interpreted as triumph.

Islam will adjust to the modern world, the only question is how painful it will be. Furhermore, modern Islam will arise, but it will be as different from Islam today (meaning 7th century Islam), as modern Christianity is from the Christianity of the Inquisition and the Witch trials. If Europe makes the transition peacefully, modern Islam will be able to coexist with 21st Century society just as easliy as modern Christianity.

re: #22 Dianna
Hi Dianna. Went back and finished the GoV thread from last night. Tom Kratman shows up. Seriously scary military guy with military thoughts. (He's banned)

re: #15 doppelganglander

There has to be a middle ground between genocide and joining the caliphate. If Western values are superior (and I believe they are), we have to be willing to fight for them. I could imagine European Muslims freeing themselves from the grip of Islamic extremism, although right now they're being held hostage by the militants. However, if we aren't willing to uphold Western values, we have no reason to expect Muslims to embrace them.

Yes, we have to uphold our values, our laws, our civilisation.
We can fight the islamists by using our laws: trouble is, the multi-culti-steeped, politically-correct governments in Europe are still too scared of doing this: might lose them votes come the next election.

As for Muslims freeing themsevles from the grip of islamism - that is not going to happen. The more I read and learn about that ROP the more I see that we get lulled into a false sense of security if we think there is a sort of islamic 'middle way.
The highly esteemed Robert Spencer has been writing about this in detail.

The best way, for the moment, is to see that our laws are kept, with no regard to muslim customs, anywhere at all.
If they don't like it, they are free to go: nobody is forcing to stay in the USA, in GB, France, Germany.
They can do their religion in the same way as we do ours.

For the rest, see Matth. 10, 16

That's an eloquent piece of analysis, although it's a bit weird to me that we're even having to talk about this. Genocide, that is. It's ridiculous and requires much less eloquence than displayed here.

I also like the "The Arab Mind" entry there, although the named subject is far too broad. Might be better called "The 'Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice' Mind." Which does roll right off the tongue.

re: #33 snowcrash

Hi Dianna. Went back and finished the GoV thread from last night. Tom Kratman shows up. Seriously scary military guy with military thoughts. (He's banned)

Yeah, he looked like he'd been around a bit, but commented rarely. Gotta wonder if he found his way over to GoV yet.

re: #11 Honorary Yooper

I'm sure she's still sensitive to "armchair psychoanalyzing" since the Dr. Sanity phone call was accidentally webcasted.

re: #30 opnion

That the Islamic problem is profound in Europe is clear.
It is also clear that a great portion of Islam seeks at the very least a cultural cleansing of Europe.
Genocide can never be the answer. You then become people every bit as bad or worse than the targeted population.
It seems to me that the answer is to resist Muslim demands for the host to modify & grant special privileges. The laws need to be strictly enforced.
The goal is to assimilate those that will assimilate & make the others so uncomfortable that the will go to a Muslim country.
And no foot baths or halal meals at school.It is interpreted as triumph.

Yes, and if they seethe, then either deport them or imprison them.
If they come to Europe, it should be to live in European culture, not to make it like the place they left. If they want to live under Sharia, go to an Islamic country.
But we know their goal is a Caliphate. We just need to keep them from that goal. They can have the ones they already have; no more (and I include "Palestine" in the "no more" group.)

re: #33 snowcrash

Tom got banned? Oh.

In a way, I'm not surprised. He's sometimes referred to as Genghis Kratman.

What - dare I ask - did he say? Just a summary will do.

If Europe would stop pandering to sensitivity of the "immigrants" in exchange for a night free of carbeques. And expect and demand assimilation of immigrants it would go a long way.

re: #11 Honorary Yooper

If El Ingles essay is so obviously an example of regressive anxiety, how would you characterize Swift's "A Modest Proposal"?

Uh, satire?

re: #38 Sharmuta

I'm sure she's still sensitive to "armchair psychoanalyzing" since the Dr. Sanity phone call was accidentally webcasted.

Heh, yeah. I fully expect a retaliatory post now. That makes two blogs that have taken notice, and several people who flagged their blog.

I found this:

McCain Blog - Make Your Opinions Known

It really does say that - so opine away.

re: #37 Honorary Yooper

I wish I could link to his finishing essay at the end of Caliphate. It's a pretty forthright statement of his views; and his views do not include advocating genocide.

re: #31 ploome hineni

[Link: www.forward.com...]

would you all please call your churches and tell them the facts

Ploome, just "who" in the United methodist church? As a lay minister of the UMC, I can say with all honesty that we more conservative churches are getting tired of some of these UMC "progressives" and their shennahigans! I mean every year at General Conference there's a damn brew-ha-ha about recognizing same sex marriage from either the SF conference or some other whacked out conference, and most of us are getting damn tired of some of this crap! General Conference of the UMC comes up in one monthe and it would be great if someone could do some finger-pointing and at some of these loons, like the ones you're describing, to shut them up and say to the country that what they are doing is NOT the will of the UMC.

re: #35 annelid

The operative part of my statement in response would be "the only question is how painful it will be." "how painful" relates to a spectrum from not very painful to extended military actions and defeat of Islamists similar to the Japanese during WWII. Accordingly, my belief is that modernism is sure to prevail, but the cost may be high.

Much as we may loathe the GoV nutbags, we should be cautious about endorsing psychoanalysis of people whom the author(s) have never met. This is, after all, the kind of thing used against us routinely by academic researchers who treat conservatism as a mental illness to be cured.

I was talking about this to a friend this morning and realized again the difference between America and Europe. In America, nationality does not equal ethnicity, in Most of Europe that isn't true. A Swede(for example) has been both nationally and ethnically Swedish. Until they can get past that, where a Turkish Swede can feel that Gustavus Adolphus is HIS hero, then assimilation won't work. Americans, regardless of ethnic origin see George Washington as their hero.

Also American culture is intrinsically excellence based, it always strives to be bigger and better. So in the discussion of which culture is best for your children, America wins over immigrant culture. American consumes and adds cultural excellence of the immigrants to itself.

Modern liberal thinking, which has little to no argument in Europe, decries excellence and achievement,i.e., we should all be equal. Thus it becomes mediocre and has nothing to recommend itself over any other culture. Aggressive immigrating cultures overwhelm it.

Unless Europe can become America on the meta level, it is doomed.

re: #32 Gordon Marock

Islam will adjust to the modern world, the only question is how painful it will be. Furhermore, modern Islam will arise, but it will be as different from Islam today (meaning 7th century Islam), as modern Christianity is from the Christianity of the Inquisition and the Witch trials. If Europe makes the transition peacefully, modern Islam will be able to coexist with 21st Century society just as easliy as modern Christianity.

I agree to a point.If Western Societies keep caving in to unrealistic demands, such as trashing free speech rights so as to not offend Muslims,modification will not come.
Young Muslims will see the radicals succeeding & they will look prophetic.
There has to be assimilation. Celebrating diversity at the expense of unity is a loser.

re: #44 DistantThunder

I found this:

McCain Blog - Make Your Opinions Known

It really does say that - so opine away.

Try this link: for some reason that other one doesn't work

McCain Blog - Make Your Opinions Known

Then look for the Blog link in the "action center" on the right side down on the page.

In a nutshell what kind of military arsenal would be necessary to clear out a Muslim banlieu.

It will adjust to the modern world.

Rumors of extreme penis shrinkage spread on cell phones, "rape" via cell phone, divorce via cell phone, cell phone footage of homosexuals being hanged, cell phone footage of girls getting stoned (their kind, not my kind), etc etc.

It is possible that Islam, freed from Wahabism and other fundamentalist forms, could become a religion that can coexist with others. The Wahabis, Iranian Shiites, etc, would consider its adherents infidels, but I think it is still possible.
Look at the more educated Muslims from India, for example.
But we need to stop the Saudi-funded madrassas, not only in Muslim countries, but in the US and Europe.

re: #49 billhedrick

The difference between BRitish and English.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA! I went over there, out of curiousity to see what I could see, and this was too good to pass up.

Sodra Djavul said...
Welcome to our LGF trolls!

Followed by this at the end:

You attack the Gates, you attack it at your own peril. See you inside the ranks, Lizardkin...

I take it someone got another sock puppet and wants to use it.

Can't we all just get along?
/

Given euro history, genocide and oppression of minorities even with out cause is the norm. And the terrorism/jihadi terrorism might be the spark that sets it off. TIME FOR JEWS TO GET THERE TOUCKAS OUT OF EUROLAND. Why any jew would stay in europe after ww2 is beyond all reason.

re: #51 DistantThunder

Try this link: for some reason that other one doesn't work

McCain Blog - Make Your Opinions Known

Then look for the Blog link in the "action center" on the right side down on the page.

McCain's blog has a link to LGF, and to Michelle Malkin.

re: #25 Sharmuta

Indeed- the victims are merely scapegoats, while the underlying problems remain unfixed. If all the muslims in europe were to leave tomorrow- europe would still have massive issues- mostly stemming from socialism- the real cause of most of their problems.

This cannot be stressed enough, Sharmuta!

re: #50 opnion

Celebrating diversity at the expense of unity is a loser.

Excellent! Pithy! Hear, hear!

re: #55 Ben Hur

The difference between BRitish and English.

Exactly. that's why I think the UK has a better chance. If you look at the UK, there are Brits of Indian, Pakistani, African, Carribean, etc origin. A blessed side effect of the Empire.

re: #9 wildcat84

I found the article to be disgusting myself. But there has so far been genocide, or the more PC "ethnic cleansing" in places in recent years involving the ROP...

Genocide by the ROP against NON ROP'ers. Such as in Darfur.

This should not and cannot be ignored. Indeed, if there is to be genocide as a result of the rise of islam, it will be by the muslims to wipe out the remaining non muslim population. Then they will turn the sword on muslims not muslim enough for them.

DURFARIANS are also muslims they are african muslims not arab muslims

re: #34 yma o hyd

Yes, we have to uphold our values, our laws, our civilisation.
We can fight the islamists by using our laws: trouble is, the multi-culti-steeped, politically-correct governments in Europe are still too scared of doing this: might lose them votes come the next election.

As for Muslims freeing themsevles from the grip of islamism - that is not going to happen. The more I read and learn about that ROP the more I see that we get lulled into a false sense of security if we think there is a sort of islamic 'middle way.
The highly esteemed Robert Spencer has been writing about this in detail.

The best way, for the moment, is to see that our laws are kept, with no regard to muslim customs, anywhere at all.
If they don't like it, they are free to go: nobody is forcing to stay in the USA, in GB, France, Germany.
They can do their religion in the same way as we do ours.

For the rest, see Matth. 10, 16

You're quite right, Europeans have shown little desire to uphold Western values. The rule of law is basically what makes civilized life possible, and we must enforce that at all costs. I also agree that giving in to Muslim demands is a bad idea. Muslims in the West are using our guarantees of civil liberties against us, turning equal treatment into special treatment. They demand respect but refuse to respect others. What I'm saying is that if Europe were to stand up for Western values (which they are not doing at present), many European Muslims might adopt those values and reject extremism. Or, as you suggest, those who do not wish to adapt will relocate to a more congenial country. Either way is fine with me.

re: #52 snowcrash

Ah. Well, he's written about that before.

That doesn't mean he advocates it, it means he's thought about it.

You are aware that he was an instructor at the war college?

re: #54 Kosh's Shadow

It is possible that Islam, freed from Wahabism and other fundamentalist forms, could become a religion that can coexist with others. The Wahabis, Iranian Shiites, etc, would consider its adherents infidels, but I think it is still possible.
Look at the more educated Muslims from India, for example.
But we need to stop the Saudi-funded madrassas, not only in Muslim countries, but in the US and Europe.

The sad fact is, that as long as the Koran stays in its current form and is viewed as the literal word of god, it will be tough to coexist.
Islam has never had a reformation & really needs one. Their book needs a redo & much of it has to be viewed as metaphorical.
Allah of the Koran hates us & exhorts the believers to kill us. Charming.

re: #59 DistantThunder

McCain's blog has a link to LGF, and to Michelle Malkin.

ohh, you can bet the dhimmis will use that this cycle. I can see it now:..McCain linked to hate-speech blog site....that's how the MSM will play it. Get ready Charles, it's election time and your name is about to be in the lights again!

Police say drunk driver killed cyclist in crash

MARSHFIELD - Gary Sanborn pedaled his bike in the dark along Route 139, the price he had to pay after pleading guilty to four drunken driving offenses and having his license revoked.

In a sad twist, Sanborn died while riding his bicycle Tuesday night, struck by a pickup truck whose driver, police say, was drunk.

Man's inhumanity to man will never stop.
All of the homogeniousness in in the tribe doesn't stop ''honor killings'' inside the tribe.
Inside of Hamas a minor disagreement might be twisted into a false accusation of ''homosexuality,'' just so the mob will throw one of two sides off a tall building for the other side.
Look at how Iraq's Zawahiri and Afghanistan's Zarkawi fought about the issue of killing Shiites/Sunni's later, not now.
The fighting won't end and a country where the culture is all unified won't stop it anymore than anything else people might try.

re: #63 yochanan

Some residents of Darfur are muslim. Some aren't.

Darfur is nothing new in Sudan. This has been going for more than 20 years, systematically, sponsored by Khartoum.

But nobody has ever cared, except a few churches and people who hate slavery and murder. In the end, no one else will much care about the people of Darfur, either, never mind how much attention the anti-slavery people try to draw to it.

re: #60 wolfie

Thank you!

Europe's real problem is it's socialist nature. It has given rise to their welfare state, for one, and also to encroachments on their freedoms, high tax rates and high unemployment- just to name a few. Interesting enough- I think if they were to start fixing their issues with socialism, europe might not look so comfortable to the islamists.

And I'd like to also say to those who continually advocate the europeans start having more children- how do you expect those euros to afford those children with the expense of the socialist states they're really supporting?

The problem in europe is socialism.

re: #46 paxnhymn

Go get 'em , Pax!
Do John Wesley proud!

re: #62 billhedrick

Exactly. that's why I think the UK has a better chance. If you look at the UK, there are Brits of Indian, Pakistani, African, Carribean, etc origin. A blessed side effect of the Empire.

Exactly!
(Mind, a few Scots, Irish and Welsh are also hanging about ...)
Hindus, Sikhs, Rastas all have their temples, their festivals - there is no trouble.

I like the concept of "Societal Regression". I'm going to have to explore that idea a little more. I wonder if that's why I simply can't consider myself a conservative.

No one ever counts the Welsh!

:(

re: #70 Dianna

Some residents of Darfur are muslim. Some aren't.

Darfur is nothing new in Sudan. This has been going for more than 20 years, systematically, sponsored by Khartoum.

But nobody has ever cared, except a few churches and people who hate slavery and murder. In the end, no one else will much care about the people of Darfur, either, never mind how much attention the anti-slavery people try to draw to it.

IN THE SOUTH OF THE SUDAN WAS CHRISTIAN AND AMIST Darfar is muslim and african were khartoum is muslim and arab.

Excellent article, I have never heard of shrinkwrapped blogs, but I'm impressed.

re: #49 billhedrick

And unless we can protect, conserve, and (in some cases) restore American values, we may be "doomed," too.

re: #7 winston06

The future of Europe is darker than that I thought

Lets root for those Montreal Canadian's eh?

Genocide is a venerable, ancient tribal custom. Where do you suppose all the Neanderthals that used to roam Europe are hiding (besides the ones in Iran)?

re: #70 Dianna

My former church sponsored a family from Sudan over to North Carolina 7 years ago. Their oldest daughter is married, with a college degree and living with her husband in Canada now. The oldest son recently graduated from an ACC school and has taken up his profession. Hint, he's an athlete of note. All of the kids have thrived in school and sports. Mom and Dad, while living what most of us would consider a modest life, have escaped death at the hands of Islamofacism and the red chinese's lust for unlimited oil.

The best thing my former church ever accomplished outside of scripture.

re: #74 Killgore Trout

I like the concept of "Societal Regression". I'm going to have to explore that idea a little more. I wonder if that's why I simply can't consider myself a conservative.

From the way I read it it's a societies' analog to the regression an individual undergoes when under stress.

re: #79 Maximu§

I will have to disown you then.

Let's go Flyers let's go!

re: #80 wolfgang

Ixnay on the Awriday.
/just kidding.

re: #80 wolfgang

Genocide is a venerable, ancient tribal custom. Where do you suppose all the Neanderthals that used to roam Europe are hiding (besides the ones in Iran)?

Careful, the Neanderthals will show up and be very upset you compared them with the Iranian mullahs.

BATAVIA – David Allen Chapin, who ate the brain of his roommate after he shot him 30 years ago in an argument over whose religion was best, is up for parole in June.

snip

Chapin shot his longtime friend, Donald E. Liming, in the right eye with a rifle in their apartment on Concord Woods Drive in Milford on Oct. 3, 1978. Both were 23. Chapin was a Baptist, while Liming had claimed he was a Catholic, a Buddhist and a pagan.

Lesson to be learned, Lizards.

[Link: news.enquirer.com...]

re: #72 wolfie

Go get 'em , Pax!
Do John Wesley proud!

man, I am so sick a the lunatic fringe in my own damn denomination! And they had the gaul last year to put out a survey asking why membership was down nationwide! Duuuhhh!

re: #80 wolfgang

Genocide is a venerable, ancient tribal custom. Where do you suppose all the Neanderthals that used to roam Europe are hiding (besides the ones in Iran)?

Republicans?

(kidding!)

re: #82 jcm

From the way I read it it's a societies' analog to the regression an individual undergoes when under stress.

That;s the impression i get as well, reading the other articles on regression now.

re: #71 Sharmuta

Thank you!

Europe's real problem is it's socialist nature. It has given rise to their welfare state, for one, and also to encroachments on their freedoms, high tax rates and high unemployment- just to name a few. Interesting enough- I think if they were to start fixing their issues with socialism, europe might not look so comfortable to the islamists.

And I'd like to also say to those who continually advocate the europeans start having more children- how do you expect those euros to afford those children with the expense of the socialist states they're really supporting?

The problem in europe is socialism.

Too right!
The welfare state has made generations depended on the state, they have forgotten how to care for themselves.
It is now so grotesque that ordinary families, with children, hard-working, have less money to spend than those 'on benefit', because they have to pay with their taxes for all that 'welfare'.
Can someone explain to me why, when bigamy is illegal in the UK, and bigamists get sent to prison, a muslim can have four wives, and get state support for them (they don't work, natch!) and their children?
Because we don't get it - but our politicians seem to ...

re: #85 Kosh's Shadow

Careful, the Neanderthals will show up and be very upset you compared them with the Iranian mullahs.

Don't they have there own TV show.

re: #78 wolfie

And unless we can protect, conserve, and (in some cases) restore American values, we may be "doomed," too.

Uh huh. There seems to be a rather large part of our society that is embarrassed by our values, culture & success. A lot of it is driven by guilt.

re: #81 BulgarWheat

I'm really glad to hear that!

I've been involved in this issue since the early 80's, and you're one of the few people I've ever run into who has the slightest clue.

sigh.

Hey Charles, can we get an open thread for those of us who, on a Friday afternoon, a) don't feel like talking about GoV and genocide, and b) don't feel like shit-slinging about McCain?

re: #75 Ben Hur

No one ever counts the Welsh!

:(

They don't even know where we live, sob ...

re: #82 jcm
From the first in the series.....

It has long been recognized that in the face of trauma, a person tends to regress. This essentially means that when highly stressed, we tend to fall back on more primitive mental functioning to face the trauma. Once the situation has resolved, reasonably intact people, in the absence of the most severe trauma, are able to slowly reconstitute over time and regain their prior level of functioning.

re: #65 Dianna
Di, I am just glad there are people who weigh an measure these things for our best interest.

Border agents to use paintball guns to fend off attackers

Are we going soft, or what?

re: #81 BulgarWheat

Their oldest daughter is married, with a college degree and living with her husband in Canada now. The oldest son recently graduated from an ACC school and has taken up his profession.

Well... fine, but AmeriKKKa is still a racist, fascist nightmare...

/Wright

re: #96 Killgore Trout

From the first in the series.....

songs like that works with people, but what about entire cultures?

The Nazis drew on the germ theory of disease to describe the need to heal the "body" of Europe by eradicating the Jewish "disease organisms" within that body. Hence, the genocidal Final Solution to the Jewish question.

It seems that El Ingles at Gates of Vienna looks on Muslims similarly. If one wants to use an analogy of health and disease, however, I would liken Muslims in Europe to a particular type of tissue within the body of Europe. That some of the cells of that type have developed a cancer of Islamofascist hatred and jihadism doesn't mean that the cure requires eliminating that entire type of tissue from the body -- that would be damaging to the body in and of itself -- but it does require excising or destroying the cancerous cells. It also requires seeking out and neutralizing the triggers that cause healthy cells of that tissue to turn malignant.

re: #94 Occasional Reader

sigh.

Hey Charles, can we get an open thread for those of us who, on a Friday afternoon, a) don't feel like talking about GoV and genocide, and b) don't feel like shit-slinging about McCain?

Oh forget it.

re: #89 Killgore Trout

That;s the impression i get as well, reading the other articles on regression now.

Odd coinicedence. Last night our continuing ED course for our foster license was on anger management for abused and Autism Spectrum Disorder kids. The techniques for handling them are similar.

Regression was major focal point.

re: #103 jcm

ED?

You better go see Alice!

Wow.

OR, you need to ask for some chicks, man!

re: #71 Sharmuta

I don't know how I missed your post, but is good.

I think your right. I will make one notation.

I would say the acceleration of the problem is magnified by subsequent low birth rates = less revenue returning.

Add to that, immigration minus assimilation, and the state is trying to perpetuate a system destined to fail, just pressing harder on the gas pedal.

All in all, a great analysis Sharmuta.

why yes, yes it is.

LOL!

re: #97 snowcrash

So am I. Which does not translate out to much enjoying the thought.

Have you read Kratman's books? (My Male is getting red-shirted in the Carnifex series; the Male's analog was still alive at the end of book two, but it's been promised that Tom will get around to killing him eventually.) He's not the world's greatest writer, but he does tell an interesting story.

re: #98 Ben Hur

Border agents to use paintball guns to fend off attackers

Are we going soft, or what?

Hey, those things sting!

re: #105 Ben Hur

Wow.

OR, you need to ask for some chicks, man!

"Thank you, God!"

-kid praying in Animal House

re: #94 Occasional Reader

sigh.

Hey Charles, can we get an open thread for those of us who, on a Friday afternoon, a) don't feel like talking about GoV and genocide, and b) don't feel like shit-slinging about McCain?

AMEN

re: #96 Killgore Trout

From the first in the series.....

Exactly, a some stress helps people problem solve better, but at a certain point stress overwhelms problem solving and regression begins.

It's not fixed, different things stress us at different levels. Different people react differently.

re: #108 Dianna
No, I haven't read anything by him but I will now.

Ask and ye shall receive

re: #104 Ben Hur

ED?

You better go see Alice!

LOL!

Just popped over from Front Page. Has anyone else suggested this link?
[Link: www.frontpagemag.com...]

It has actual suggestions for action at the end.

re: #101 stuiec

The Nazis drew on the germ theory of disease to describe the need to heal the "body" of Europe by eradicating the Jewish "disease organisms" within that body. Hence, the genocidal Final Solution to the Jewish question.

It seems that El Ingles at Gates of Vienna looks on Muslims similarly. If one wants to use an analogy of health and disease, however, I would liken Muslims in Europe to a particular type of tissue within the body of Europe. That some of the cells of that type have developed a cancer of Islamofascist hatred and jihadism doesn't mean that the cure requires eliminating that entire type of tissue from the body -- that would be damaging to the body in and of itself -- but it does require excising or destroying the cancerous cells. It also requires seeking out and neutralizing the triggers that cause healthy cells of that tissue to turn malignant.

I'm sorry, but this analogy is too close to the Nazi ideology for my liking.
One cannot liken people to diseased cells or diseased tissues which need to to be 'excised' without sliding quickly down the slippery slope to killing them.

re: #111 yochanan

AMEN

You requests have been answered.

re: #87 paxnhymn

man, I am so sick a the lunatic fringe in my own damn denomination! And they had the gaul last year to put out a survey asking why membership was down nationwide! Duuuhhh!

Yes, it is very sad. I get sick when I see what nests (caves?) of moonbattery so many "Wesleyan" colleges have become, too. I am a great admirer of John Wesley........tho' I am a Catholic!

re: #83 formercorpsman

I will have to disown you then.

Let's go Flyers let's go!

Booooooooo....Go Canadian's!

re: #93 Dianna

There's a huge Sudanese refuge population in NC and Northern Virginia, and they're not from the ROP. Christians and Anamists.

re: #116 CatsPaw

Just popped over from Front Page. Has anyone else suggested this link?
[Link: www.frontpagemag.com...]

It has actual suggestions for action at the end.

That was an excellent interview - I've been e-mailing it to various people who need to read this.

re: #31 ploome hineni

[Link: www.forward.com...]

would you all please call your churches and tell them the facts

Darn, Ploome, I didn't know the Reverend Wright was a Methodist. Or do the Methodists have their own Reverend Wrights?

re: #122 yma o hyd

That was an excellent interview - I've been e-mailing it to various people who need to read this.

I thought so, too, very well reasoned. I don't know anything about this man. Is he a good guy?

re: #106 formercorpsman

I would say the acceleration of the problem is magnified by subsequent low birth rates = less revenue returning.

Absolutely! The problems surrounding socialism compound themselves. In this sense, they might have thought they'd make up lost revenue by mass immigration. The problem is they don't have the jobs required to employ the immigrants, and instead those people end up on welfare adding to the burden instead of contributing to the revenue pool. So yet again- they compound their own problem.

re: #120 Maximu§

Right at about 36 seconds last night, I felt my dinner come back up in my throat.

Last week, I was able to take my brother to the game that went in to double overtime.

We were in a suite, free boos, food, etc.

He got to hang out with some well known Philly sports talk types.

It was great.

re: #113 snowcrash

Ah, by the way, what nic was Kratman using?

re: #94 Occasional Reader

sigh.

Hey Charles, can we get an open thread for those of us who, on a Friday afternoon, a) don't feel like talking about GoV and genocide, and b) don't feel like shit-slinging about McCain?

I need a new job how about a thread on that.

re: #100 paxnhymn

That's the question, isn't it. It seems like a pretty good analogy to me. I've had similar observations recently.

re: #124 CatsPaw

I thought so, too, very well reasoned. I don't know anything about this man. Is he a good guy?

Well - he's been on other interviews at Frontpage, so I assume he's ok.

re: #121 BulgarWheat

I meet Sudanese now and then. We have a Sudanese in our dojang; I'm still wondering who will be assigned as his training dummy during testing.

re: #123 gymnast

There's a Rev. Wright in every denomination, I fear. But most of them don't have very big congregations.

re: #131 Dianna

very tall, very powerful women! My daughter nearly came out of here seat when they u-ulated during the wedding we attended.

I mourn for what the ELCA could have become.

re: #80 wolfgang

Genocide is a venerable, ancient tribal custom. Where do you suppose all the Neanderthals that used to roam Europe are hiding (besides the ones in Iran)?

What are you saying, "Genocide, so easy even a Cave Man can do it"?
You know that those guys on TV hate that

Over the years (since 9/11 anyway) I've had to wonder whether or not Europe learnt anything after World War II. The Europeans have a tendency to oscillate between two extremes. One extreme is the Moonbat Leftist version (the Galloway/Prince Charles nuttiness which accepts Islamist extremists/terrorists with open arms), then there is the European backlash (the GoV types who are foaming at the mouth enraged and ready to start fresh pogroms/genocides against Muslims to get rid of 3 or 4 percent of the population which they perceive as a "threat." ) I suspect that the actual problem does not lie with the minority of extremist Islamists living in Europe, as it does with Europeans, in general (or the current "leaders"). it's the Moonbat Europeans which encourage and allow to flourish extremist terrorist types...they're both a problem (I think there has got to be a resurgence, a reaffirmation of the "good" European values -- others have listed the positive ways to go about doing this -- integrating, re-invigorating European values etc...and, "no," that does not and should not entail genocide.)

re: #126 formercorpsman

Right at about 36 seconds last night, I felt my dinner come back up in my throat.

Last week, I was able to take my brother to the game that went in to double overtime.

We were in a suite, free boos, food, etc.

He got to hang out with some well known Philly sports talk types.

It was great.

You lucky Duck!

That was an expensive night for sure......nacho's alone cost about $15. I have a feeling we're in for quite a series between the Flyers and the Canadian's.

Oh Canada, our Home and Native land.....true patriot Love in all thy sons command...

[Link: shrinkwrapped.blogs.com...]

It wouldn't be so bad if you hadn't already indulged in a heavy case of awfulizing a situation previously yourself.

Wow... without processing further, I can just say I am apalled at the use of 'to awful' as a verb.

Did anyone figure-out what/when or how this big awakening, this epiphany, of Europe's eventual Islamic balkanization was going to come-about within an entirely dysfunctional EU Parliament?

No...do not tell me 'THE Revolution is on! ...and will be entirely web-cast!'

re: #31 ploome hineni

[Link: www.forward.com...]

would you all please call your churches and tell them the facts

Sure ain't MY church...

re: #127 Dianna

Tom Kratman. I found his posts very informative and you could tell he is/was a warrior. I felt he added much to the discussion and I'm saddened he was banned when maybe a warning about abusive language was all that was needed. Then again, it's not my sandbox and I haven't read all his posts. I respect and enjoy SaDMan's posts but I felt he goaded Kratman till he got p'od. When you goad a warrior, expect the fur to fly. JMHO.

re: #136 Maximu§

hmm..that's "Canadiens"....and "true patriot love, in all of us command.." (the original version, prior to World War I)...

re: #140 GeeWiz

With Kratman? All too likely - I lurk over at Baen's Bar, now and again, and the man's got a temper. Though, on the bar...who doesn't? They have a category strictly for fights (Blazes).

Anyway, I must say goodnight. I hope to see you all over the weekend.

re: #45 Dianna

I wish I could link to his finishing essay at the end of Caliphate. It's a pretty forthright statement of his views; and his views do not include advocating genocide.

Oh, the author of the book that advertised on the side-bar? hmm... I'd have read his posts more carefully then, to see if I wanted to support him. How is that book, then?

Forgive me if I have misunderstood, but the idea behind Mark Steyn's book America Alone is that

1) Islam is an existential threat to Europe and from that first assumption, several other assumptions and their attendant conclusions follow.

2) that Europe has specific cultural and ethnic attributes that must be preserved at all costs.

3) Europe has no ability to defend itself culturally or demographically.

As for number 4,

4) From there, he assumes that only by removing the alien from within its midst can Europe be saved.

Well, Mark Steyn's book is not prescriptive, so he doesn't give us any ideas on what to do to stop the problem. He just describes the problem.

So, does Mark Steyn also suffer from a regressive response to anxiety?

If I am wrong in my understanding of Mark Steyn's book, please explain to me specifically what I am wrong about.

re: #80 wolfgang

Genocide is a venerable, ancient tribal custom. Where do you suppose all the Neanderthals that used to roam Europe are ...

The Europeans married the Neanderthals...

re: #15 doppelganglander

There has to be a middle ground between genocide and joining the caliphate. If Western values are superior . . . we have to be willing to fight for them.

Well, there's you have a problem: nobody seems to have a clue as to what are "western values". If we could define them, perhaps we could organize to agree and to defend them. When you think about it, very carefully, you will find that you are unable to define so much as the "western" part, never mind the whole package. Is Japan "western"? Or Turkey? Israel? Which of our leaders has ever tried to explain "western values", even while talking about it constantly?

If we can't define what needs defending, save your breath and start working on a Plan B.

re: #31 ploome hineni

[Link: www.forward.com...]

would you all please call your churches and tell them the facts

Oh fuck the Forward, I'm so sick of them pretending to represent "the entire Jewish people"

If Kratman was banned for abusive language then Babbazee should follow him through the door. It's got nothing to do with offensive insults.

re: #148 kuffarharbi

You're not in luck.

re: #141 J.S.

hmm..that's "Canadiens"....and "true patriot love, in all of us command.." (the original version, prior to World War I)...

Doh....Thank You JS.

Tom Kratman is currently unbanned.

AM,
R

re: #144 Pastorius

I believe that the term "regression" is being used to describe certain individuals in Europe who view concentration camps, etc., as a "solution" to the "Muslim" problem...(they're regressing to a pre-WWII mode). Mark Steyn doesn't advocate or encourage Europeans to revert to mass deportations, concentration camps, or genocide as "solutions." (nonetheless, rest assured, here in Canada the Human "Rights" Commission will soon have Steyn's book out of the book stores and off the library shelves since, according to the bureaucrats, it promotes hatred of an identified minority. (I don't agree with all of Steyn's analysis, but I believe he has the right to say it -- and it has nothing to do with "hate" -- it's written well within the bounds of Free Speech.)

re: #142 Dianna

With Kratman? All too likely - I lurk over at Baen's Bar, now and again, and the man's got a temper.

I find having a temper in this nation's warriors to be a good thing. But that's just me. Nite Dianna.

re: #148 kuffarharbi

So far BabbaZee said:re: #114 BabbaZee

Ask and ye shall receive

------

WTF is your problem?

re: #154 Roger

So far BabbaZee said:re: #114 BabbaZee

------

WTF is your problem?

On the GoV thread Babbazee used offensive and aggressive language towards a poster she was misunderstanding. Why hasn't she been banned? Or is it ok for some and not for others?
I'm not just referring to this thread. So WTF is YOUR problem?

Europe has a problem in that it alternatively swings between extreme nationalism and extreme liberalism. We are witnessing the shift back to nationalism brought on by the massive excesses of the last round of liberalism. Providing lavish subsidies to a class of immigrants with 50% unemployment is just one example of this.

Europe has never been able to find the balance between native Europeans and immigrants that the US has. The reason the US model of immigrant assimilation has been rejected in Europe is that neither the left nor the right profits from it, so it's simply not considered.

The mask of European nationalism is multiculturalism, a system whereby citizens can claim to be enlightened by allowing outside ethnic groups to partake of the fruits of Western culture, but by segregating the same ethnic groups into ghettos the natives don't have to deal with seeing them at the neighborhood stores and restaurants, or moving in next door, or hiring them as teachers for their children. I wonder if this is all about paying penance for Empire and fascist excesses of the past, but not paying TOO much.

Imagine a segregated South in the 1950's, but instead of ditching segregation, we instead started paying reparations. We could continue our racist ways soothe our guilt by paying up. What a despicable idea. But that's where Europe is.

Since rights are granted by the State to the subjects of the State, the notion of inalienable rights granted by a Creator would mean a massive power loss by the State. So just forget about American style freedoms in Europe.

Of course lost in all this is the genuine threat of a theocratic, aggressive, expansive Islam.

re: #155 kuffarharbi

On the GoV thread Babbazee used offensive and aggressive language towards a poster she was misunderstanding. Why hasn't she been banned? Or is it ok for some and not for others?
I'm not just referring to this thread. So WTF is YOUR problem?

What is your problem. Babbazee brings fantastic information and links here. What do you bring?

re: #157 BBev

What is your problem. Babbazee brings fantastic information and links here. What do you bring?

I don't deny that. I just don't like her manner. It's arrogant and aggressive.

re: #116 CatsPaw

Just popped over from Front Page. Has anyone else suggested this link?
[Link: www.frontpagemag.com...]

It has actual suggestions for action at the end.

that needs it's own thread!

re: #155 kuffarharbi

There are degrees of what constitutes "abusive and offensive."

There is also a certain amount of leeway given to those who have contributed as much for as long as Babba has.

Are you still beating your wife?

EARN
IT,
R

(I had the following prepared, and now I see that KingKenrod said something very similar, so this might be only a slightly different take.)

I’m not nuts about the article. I’m all for challenging European white nationalism, but ShrinkWrapped is 1) calling Islam all wrong in this, and 2) focusing too much on genocidal ranting. The real problem in Europe is less what one individual rants or not – there’s always going to be kooks like that everywhere. The real tragedy is the (in my experience) widespread tendency among Europeans not to view their nationality rationally (i.e, in terms of citizenship) but rather as a race. And what’s more, a race that is inherently superior to all other “races” and which must be kept “pure.”

What this leads to is only two toggle positions in their way of thinking about diversity issues: It’s either a) we’re “racially” superior to everyone else, or b) well, yes, we’re “racially” superior to everyone else, but it’s rude to say that out loud. But almost no one seems to question the underlying rationality of the racially supremacist assumption itself.

One of the things this then leads to in terms of European outward political and social behavior regarding diversity, is a two-toggle position platform there as well – it’s either a) we’re beating up anyone in the street who looks differently from us like Nazi skinheads, or b) we want to do that, but we’re told we can’t, so we just have to sit on our hands and do nothing, and let anyone from anywhere do whatever they want even if it destroys the country. This is the mode that exists now.

The GoV people are simply arguing for the other toggle position, but what they seem oblivious too is that both toggle positions, because their based on an irrational concept, are equally self-destructive. So they think that they’re taking this position out of a sense of “patriotism,” yet they’re actually doing just as much to destroy their countries as their opponents by seeking to advance the same irrational platform for policy making decisions.

What is needed in Europe is a voice that says, ‘Look, British (or French or German, etc.) is not a race, but at the same time, we need to manage our countries effectively, and establish effective immigration programs, sensible public spending policies, etc, based on realities, not false racial beliefs on either side.

But no one is doing that that I’m aware of. I’ve had this conversation with so many Europeans, and when I try to explain that, for example, French, is not a race, or at least not one meaningful in the context of nationality, they look at me with utter confusion. It’s weird. It’s like trying to explain colors to a blind person. It’s like they lack any faculties for receiving the information. And you can see this again in the responses to Robert’s recent essay on this topic. People who can sound rational on certain matters simply cannot divorce themselves from the idea that national identity is racial.

Very strange. (Let me also add the disclaimer that I’m not talking obviously about all Europeans. But sometimes speaking in generalities is the only way to make a point clearly.) (And sorry for the long post; I’ve dealt with this nearly 24/7 for years so I have a lot to say about it.)

re: #151 Render

Thank you for that information. His banning had me confused about what transgressions were of a banning offense.

Hey, kuffarharbi, you are very much in need of a clue. Until you get one, I suggest that you STFU.

Pastorius,

I agree with Steyn a bit, but I don't buy the entire gestalt of doom. Going after "all islam" or all "muslims" is not only ineffective, it defeats the cause because of the associative ills of tribal purism and the more rabid adherents who will besmirch you no matter how pure you personally are in intentions.

It adapts the same old tribal weapons our opponents choose to use, which are essentially weak. One reason Europe's having such issues is that everything is Europe tends to get framed by identity, and usually by religious or ethnic identity. You can't defeat an ideology if you are looking for ethnicity or religion.

If you replace the demographics of Muslims with Roms, you would have the some of the same people using the same issues and the same dialogue, but framed around "jazz" and "music" instead of religion.

As an example right now I am pissing all over the notion of the new govt' of Pakistan for making peace with the Taliban because I see it as just another hudna, but at some point in the future when we can declare victory we will have to make peace with some subset of the Taliban and their sympathizers unless we want to pursue genocide from Kabul to Peshawar. Alexander already tried that and threw it over when he figured out it wasn't going to work so I don't think we want to go there. He tried a different strategy, and won.

re: #158 kuffarharbi

I don't deny that. I just don't like her manner. It's arrogant and aggressive.

Suffer asshole.

re: #162 GeeWiz

Thank you for that information. His banning had me confused about what transgressions were of a banning offense.

Hey, kuffarharbi, you are very much in need of a clue. Until you get one, I suggest that you STFU.

Your comment is a perfect demonstration of the malaise I've noticed on this blog. It exhibits a clubby elitism, a self-satisfied thuggishness and an incipient fascism. Bunch of hypocrites and very ugly indeed. No different from the blogs you hate so much, like Daily Kos and HuffPO, simply different clothing. Think I'll stick to a more civilised site like Jihad Watch where posters are civil and less brutal. There's too much self-congratulation and mutual masturbation here.

re: #164 Roger

Suffer asshole.

There you go....more brutishness. Such a bunch of loving Christians.

Render, thanks for the info. He definitely brings experience and a viewpoint to the table that we are wiser for having.

People to ban....render, geewiz,roger,babbazee......all reported for abuse....for what it's worth.

I read the whole article at Shrinkwrapped, and it reads, like the GoV posting, like a reasonably well thought-out and written piece, but with some problematic simplifications and evasions.

The writer seems to try to put the most intellectual and civilized face on Islam and Muslims that he can:

“Further, whenever Muslims have been offered a choice between the rigors of inflexible Islamist orthodoxy, . . . . . . those who have experienced freedom are loathe to give it up.”

“Many Muslims applauded the rioting that followed the cartoon Jihad, but many more were embarrassed by their co-religionists excesses.”

“It is not a coincidence that once exposed to the scrutiny of the international community, apostates are now routinely being spared the death penalty Islam has traditionally demanded, women who have been raped are not being stoned to death, and FGM (female genital mutilation) is being increasingly criticized from within Islam itself. . . . . . . ”

“A Muslim population that begins to be forced to accept women's rights is a Muslim population that has already begin [sic] to repudiate Islamism.”

“inflexible”, “loathe”, “embarrassed “, “not a coincidence”, . . . . . “begin [sic] to repudiate”?

These are UN-speak; they do not adequately or accurately reflect the truth, and may even hide it.

Further, the article does not explain the London 7/7 bombers (not immigrants), or the Glasgow Physicians. Why do apparently successful citizens do such things? It looks like there’s a belief system involved.

FrontPageMagazine has an interesting article on what happens to a country ( a society, a civilization) as the percentage of Muslims increases.

Three countries have escaped this fate: Spain, India, and (most of ) Yugoslavia (at least for a while). Armies and war were the method.

We’ve all read the various articles posted here and at other blogs, describing how various European governments and bureaucrats are implementing policies that lead to Islamization of the country in question., and at the expense of the native (overwhelming) majority population and existing laws.

This looks more like a case of some political factions trying to (culturally?) murder Europe than Europe committing cultural suicide.

Why does the writer ignore these bureaucratic actions? Correcting these policies and actions just might be the method to preventing mass killings (genocide, self-defense, other) in Europe in the not-too-distant future.

We all know about the protests in Britain (“Behead those . . .”), the car-b-queues in France, and the ongoing rape problem in Sweden, Norway and France (well, actually “pass-arounds”).

What sort of end result do these actions suggest for native Europeans, life in their native country like the Copts in Egypt, or like that of the Black Africans in Darfur?

“Europe may yet commit cultural suicide, but genocide as a defense is indefensible.”

There’s a vast difference between genocide and self-defense, but the writer seems to gloss over this.

Effectively, the writer is arguing that killing in self-defense is not acceptable.

I’m not certain whether there will mass killings in Europe in the near future, but several signs point that way. This sort of article seems to make killing more likely,

re: #165 kuffarharbi

Your comment is a perfect demonstration of the malaise I've noticed on this blog. It exhibits a clubby elitism, a self-satisfied thuggishness and an incipient fascism. Bunch of hypocrites and very ugly indeed. No different from the blogs you hate so much, like Daily Kos and HuffPO, simply different clothing. Think I'll stick to a more civilised site like Jihad Watch where posters are civil and less brutal. There's too much self-congratulation and mutual masturbation here.

There is no malaise here. Clubby elitism, MY ASS! Check my profile and tell me just how I'm a member of a club? DUMBASS! I only post when I have something to contribute un-like you who's only contribution is to demean a treasure of this blog. You, sir/madam are suggesting that we are nothing more than a collection of "yes men". You have got to be kidding me? Your post reveals more about you than us and speaks to your ignorance of the members/personalities of this blog.

The question I had about TK's banning was addressed by Charles and corrected, so your point is?

re: #168 kuffarharbi

People to ban....render, geewiz,roger,babbazee......all reported for abuse....for what it's worth.

Okay, puts on boxing gloves, just what did I post that would make me deserve banning?

BTW: I get your nic right and I would appreciate you do the same.
Thank you in advance for your co-operation.

re: #171 GeeWiz

Okay, puts on boxing gloves, just what did I post that would make me deserve banning?

BTW: I get your nic right and I would appreciate you do the same.
Thank you in advance for your co-operation.

How about 'I suggest that you STFU' and 'dumbass' for starters. Or am I being too sensitive? One thing is for sure.....you would be banned straight off for that kind of language over at Jihad Watch.

re: #158 kuffarharbi

I don't deny that. I just don't like her manner. It's arrogant and aggressive.

Well if you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen.

re: #169 Arbalest

You though the GoV posting was "reasonably well thought-out"? Really?

It is the intolerant ideology of Islam that needs to be discredited, dismantled and dispatched to the dustbin of history.

Not its victims.

Who are Muslims, primarily.

And, secondarily (when raving, militant Mohammedans are on the march, mesmerized by the purulent preachings of their pedophile "prophet") those infidels unlucky enough to be in the path of the imperialistic terror campaigns of the Ummah.

These genocide-oriented theorists -diddling their morbid ids- have missed the point of this conflict entirely.

This is an ideological clash, not a war against people.

Though, when some Muslims become psychotic homicidal zombie jihadists, they will need to be delivered into a dirt nap, naturally, but the primary battle is against the dismal dogmas of the Koran.

Unless Islam's malignant beliefs are defanged, derailed and debunked, they will continue to produce hapless suckers willing to sacrifice themselves and their children to its Moloch-like maw.

re: #172 kuffarharbi

How about 'I suggest that you STFU' and 'dumbass' for starters. Or am I being too sensitive? One thing is for sure.....you would be banned straight off for that kind of language over at Jihad Watch.

Then I might suggest that the "Jihad Watch" site you referenced is just a little too pussified or drank too much of PC Kool-aid. You sir/madam have been given a greater leeway here than I would have over there from your comments. If you are that sensitive to what you consider "rough" language, I suggest you find another blog to infest. At LGF we call it it as it is. Deal with it or find another blog that enforces the rules of etiquette..

163 Thanos,

Islam is not a monolith. However, at the same time, as far as I can tell,

there is no Muslim media outlet, academic institution, political organization, or government, of any significant size, anywhere in the entire world, which speaks for a moderate version of Islam.

If I am not mistaken, 70% of the Mosques in America are known to carry Wahabbist hate literature. The Mosques in Europe are similar. The moderate, decent Muslims do not speak out, with any appreiciable force against the hatred preached in their midst.

This is not to say there are not moderate decent people who identify themselves as Muslims. There certainly are. I am friends with such people.

My opinion is, we don't need to go after all Muslims. We need to go after Jihad. However, of course, many peaceful Muslims would say, "Jihad is an inner struggle." Ok, so let's put it this way.

The preaching of violent Jihad, and strict Sharia (stoning of gays and apostates, women as half-citizens, dhimmi laws, etc.) is absolutely counter to Western values and is, in effect, seditious, in the same way as advocating for the replacement of the U.S. government with Soviet Communism would have been considered seditious during the Cold War.

If you think my proposal seems strong, then I ask you to remember that Sharia is the constitution of Saudi Arabia. So, advocating Sharia law in the West is, certainly, advocating the replacement of our governmental systems with the government of another country.

And, in that it is proposes stoning of apostates, it is certainly advocating for the end of free speech.

re: #174 Sharmuta

For brevity:

El Ingles' article is 10 Word pages (10 point Times New Roman). This is not a short work, not quickly read and understood in 15 minutes. He seems to have done a fair amount of research,and it's not just a collection of extremist assertions.

I interpret his article to be a discussion of "what might happen", not a "what we will do when the time comes", at least that seems to be how the article is worded.

It is not the sort of snot found on Kos, something to be simply fisked then sent back to the diarist because it won't flush.

I don't buy El Ingles' ". . . the only three options for achieving . . ." claim, and In note that his proposals essentially lead to a police state, suggesting that European Civilization has failed. But I think there's still time, he seems to think not.

The internet, and LGF is not for the pantywaist or the delicate. Whinging is not tolerated, good thought is rewarded. If this is too tough for you friends, I would suggest going to Pro Wrestling boards.

Being mean or vulgar is not a bannable offense here, BTW.

re: #177 Pastorius

advocating Sharia law in the West is, certainly, advocating the replacement of our governmental systems with the government of another country

Sedition is a crime which can and should be prosecuted.

From Shrinkwrapped:

Islam will adjust to modernity or marginalize itself.

Oh, really? Have we seen much evidence of either of those trends? If so, I missed that evidence.

It seems to me that your approach, Pastorius, is a workable plan!

I believe that now is the time to discuss solutions--before things get so bad that discussion is not possible. I make this statement because I see Islam as an existential threat. And I think that the time for discussing solutions is now, before the crisis-management mode is in fuller bloom.

re: #177 Pastorius

Nope, I"m right with you there. Free speech stops when it advocates violence or overthrow of our constitution. It stops where individual rights begin. Calls for stoning, definitely wrong.

If it's an immigrant preaching that, it's time to export back to country of radicalization where they can deal with the bastard. Let's use some of Wright's theory and send the radical crows home to roost. (note: crows home to roost is a long running theme at my blog having to do with Lal Masjid. Crows instead of chickens for Black Hijabs, which are also called "Ninja bags" by the urban Pakistanis.)

The idea that Islam will adjust itself to modernity or marginalize itself does not jibe with history.

Islam helped bring about what we now call the Dark Ages of Europe.

It is not entirely an accident that 1492 was both the year of the culmination of the "Expulsion of the Moors" and the year of the beginning of the Renaissance.

Islam is still stuck in the Dark Ages, and yet it is able to exist as a world power (whole countries are run by Islamic governments, and the UN is heavily swayed by those governments) even though it is not at all adjusted to modernity.

It seems to me Shrinkwrapped is demonstrating mortal complacency when he makes such a statement.

re: #180 AlwaysOnWatch

Oh, really? Have we seen much evidence of either of those trends? If so, I missed that evidence.

It seems to me that your approach, Pastorius, is a workable plan!

I believe that now is the time to discuss solutions--before things get so bad that discussion is not possible. I make this statement because I see Islam as an existential threat. And I think that the time for discussing solutions is now, before the crisis-management mode is in fuller bloom.

Actually some of that is starting to happen in some European states, if you look at the papers right now they are rife with trials of terror suspects, and terror rings. Der Spiegle has an arty on the latest round up in Germany. The gov'ts in Europe are becoming more conservative if you've been following elections there, the hold-out right now where the jihadis always seem to get their way is Britain. Remember the documentary a while back that tracked several "western Jihadists" who if you followed their paths to meeting other groups and cells all intersected London?

Out of curiosity, do any lizardoids go out of their way to engage Muslims on the net who rage against anyone who criticizes, ridicules, or lampoons any aspect of the RoP and the behavior of its practitioners, or, do they confine themselves to the ideologically supportive parts of the net?

re: #184 Fierce Guppy

I did once. He said he hoped he never came across the likes of me ever again. Heh.

re: #184 Fierce Guppy

Out of curiosity, do any lizardoids go out of their way to engage Muslims on the net who rage against anyone who criticizes, ridicules, or lampoons any aspect of the RoP and the behavior of its practitioners, or, do they confine themselves to the ideologically supportive parts of the net?

get engaged to a muslim in a rage?! That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think?

re: #184 Fierce Guppy

Out of curiosity, do any lizardoids go out of their way to engage Muslims on the net who rage against anyone who criticizes, ridicules, or lampoons any aspect of the RoP and the behavior of its practitioners, or, do they confine themselves to the ideologically supportive parts of the net?

No, Lizards never pile into a forum and blister it. Never seen that happen.

Lizards don't read and respond and attack in jihadi forums either. They don't frequent forums in Dar al Islam and respond to jihadis. They never support moderate muslims in those foreign forums either.

Lizards never go after jihadi websites, videos, or supporters.

Lizards never write letters to congresscritters, business' and others in the public eye who do the wrong things regarding radical Islam.

No we never ever do any of those things, we just talk in here. You certainly have us pegged.

///// /////////////////

re: #168 kuffarharbi

People to ban....render, geewiz,roger,babbazee......all reported for abuse....for what it's worth.

nobody is keeping you here. The den opening is to the East if you can't find your way out

Having had a chance to read more of this thread, I see that several people have commented on Europe's tendency to oscillate between extreme liberalism and disgusting Ethnic Nationalism.

I agree.

However, because they overreact to their problems does not mean they are not faced with real problems.

We don't have cars burning in our major cities. I credit our meritocratic capitalist system for that, in part.

However, just because cars aren't burning does not mean we don't have a problem with radical Islam. Debbie Schlussel, for instance, chronicles the problems in Dearborn.

Radical Islam is a real problem. As Muslims become a larger and larger percentage of the population, radical Islam becomes more and more of a threat.

Radical Islam does grow out of the Koran and the Hadith. It is not a mistaken version of Islam, but is instead a strict interpretation of Islam.

The Judeo-Christian Bible proposes some severe laws. However, the Jews talked their way through the radicalism of stoning apostates to death. I call it the "Talmudic process" for lack of a better phrase.

The Muslims have done nothing of the like.

Part of the problem, from what I can see, is that there is no center of authority in Islam. Therefore, schools rise and fall as generations pass. Islam gets more radical and less radical, but there is always an element of strict Sharia and Jihad.

And, I want to point out, it is not up to us Infidels to fix Islam. It is up to Muslims to hash out the issues within their religion.

I don't see a lot of evidence of that happening. Once again, there is no Muslim media outlet, academic institution, political organization, or government, of any significant size, anywhere in the entire world, which speaks for a moderate version of Islam.

Therefore, Islam is an existential threat, just as Communism and Nazism were in the past.

Islam is not an existential threat to Europe?

I think it is.

re: #187 Thanos

On occasion I've engaged mohamedans on usenet, the IRC, and recently some teenage ones on bebo. Pfffft.... It's time for me to shed the lethargy, find that old Objectivist passion I once had and get serious about countering these freedom hating muppets.

It seems to me Shrinkwrapped perspective here flies in the face of the case made by writers like Mark Steyn, Bruce Bawer, and Robert Spencer.

Have we rejected Steyn's thesis?

If so, that is a paradigm shift for the counter-Jihad movement.

Maybe there is "third way" to deal with the Muslim problem in Europe. How about repatriation of the Muslims to the [south] East? For which Infidel in Europe does this plan not work for?

re: #193 Future Blogger

Maybe there is "third way" to deal with the Muslim problem in Europe. How about repatriation of the Muslims to the [south] East? For which Infidel in Europe does this plan not work for?

Which muslims get repatriated? How do you find out if someone is a muslim if they don't admit it freely? This road has been traveled down before and it's not pretty.

Europe wanted cheap labor and instead it gained an expensive birth:

Eurabia, the rat that roared.

Islam did not invade the Continent, it was invited in, blindly.

Even after 1300 years of recurrent, bloodsoaked conflict with imperialistic Islam, Europeans apparently forgot this grim history and smiled at the multiculti fantasy of a future free of tyrannical and theocratic ideologies, having humbled their homegrown varieties.

But they wildly underestimated the tribal potency and brain-washing unity and intensity of Mohammadism's core tenets and rituals and Koran-created mass-identity.

Ignorance of your opponent's intentions is your problem, not your opponent's.

Europe sucked in the Islamic wind, and how they deal with the Jihad whirlwind is the existential dilemma facing the Continent for this century.

Their own idealistic laws (for accepting masses of unquestioned refugees, etc.) are their undoing.

Until they rationally and coldly reform their suicidal acceptance of de facto colonizers and demographic replacements, they will have to dream of extremes.

re: #195 profitsbeard

Europe wanted cheap labor and instead it gained an expensive birth:

Eurabia, the rat that roared.

Islam did not invade the Continent, it was invited in, blindly.

Even after 1300 years of recurrent, bloodsoaked conflict with imperialistic Islam, Europeans apparently forgot this grim history and smiled at the multiculti fantasy of a future free of tyrannical and theocratic ideologies, having humbled their homegrown varieties.

But they wildly underestimated the tribal potency and brain-washing unity and intensity of Mohammadism's core tenets and rituals and Koran-created mass-identity.

Ignorance of your opponent's intentions is your problem, not your opponent's.

Europe sucked in the Islamic wind, and how they deal with the Jihad whirlwind is the existential dilemma facing the Continent for this century.

Their own idealistic laws (for accepting masses of unquestioned refugees, etc.) are their undoing.

Until they rationally and coldly reform their suicidal acceptance of de facto colonizers and demographic replacements, they will have to dream of extremes.

What suggestions do you have for Europe?

+"The author of the GoV piece exhibits all the signs of a regressive response to anxiety."

Key word: regressive.

re: #192 Pastorius

It seems to me Shrinkwrapped perspective here flies in the face of the case made by writers like Mark Steyn, Bruce Bawer, and Robert Spencer.

Have we rejected Steyn's thesis?

If so, that is a paradigm shift for the counter-Jihad movement.

Nobody's rejecting it outright I think Pastorius, many of us are upset with exagerations of the threat in face of the fact that we are fighting a real war of consequence.

The sky won't fall in Europe tomorrow, which is what some would have us believe, and their intent in making us believe that is so that extreme measures get called for. I too think shrinkwrapped underplays the moderacy of Islam in his essay a bit, but he's far outpaced in exageration by the likes of the VB'ers etc.

re: #194 gman

It has got to be all. Yes, it will be unfair to many, but when the future of you civilization is on the line sacrifices have to be made. So sorry!

re: #199 Future Blogger

Your solution means you've already sacrificed your civilization. Enjoy your fascist overlords!

re: #196 gman

"What suggestions...for Europe?"

End all but the most exceptional personages coming in through "refugee programs" (exiled scientists, inventors, writers/artists, etc. who could be of benefit to their new society); end all immigration except on a rare and case-by-case basis (no families dragged along); end welfare, stipends, health services, free education, etc. for non-working newcomers; eject all illegals immigrants; raise your own birthrate; stop all covert polygamy; teach the history of Islam and its clashes with every other faith and culture and civilization since its war-born beginnings in 600 A.D.; outlaw FGM (and similar "tribal" cruelties); ban the burqa; forbid any further mosques being built in the West until churches, temples and synagogues are permitted in Saudi Arabia; stop deluding themselves about the "peacefulness" of the intolerant and militaristic Koranic dogmas; deport criminal immigrants (imams, etc. shouting "Death to the West!") back to their home countries (and cut the p.s. namby-pamby excuses that "they might be tortured so we cannot send them home" idiocy); restore the death penalty for terrorism ("warfare"); instigate anti-Jihad propaganda online and crush all jihadist websites with hired EU hackers...

-just off the top of my head, for starters.

In a phrase: awaken your survival instincts and cunning.

I'm sure others here have more ideas.

re: #117 yma o hyd

I'm sorry, but this analogy is too close to the Nazi ideology for my liking.
One cannot liken people to diseased cells or diseased tissues which need to to be 'excised' without sliding quickly down the slippery slope to killing them.

It's not a slippery slope to killing them. The individuals who represent the cancerous cells in the analogy are the ones who believe in conducting violent and murderous jihad against any who do not follow their ideology. It's pretty commonplace for such individuals to be killed in defensive operations in many places in today's world, and for them to be arrested in many other places.

The purpose of the analogy is to debunk the false idea that it's ethnicity or religious affiliation that makes people dangerous -- the false idea that all Muslims or all Arabs or all Turks or all Iranians or all Pakistanis are evil, dangerous people. It's clear that some individuals among the world's Muslims are evil, dangerous people, and that some of those people became evil and dangerous precisely because of how they learned to interpret their duties under Islam. If you agree that is the case, then you probably agree that the evil, dangerous individuals need to be prevented from doing harm, and that the mechanism by which they became evil and dangerous needs to be neutralized before it sucks more individuals in.

What's true of radical Islam is also true of various nationalist and tribalist movements around the world. For example, I can accept that Arabs with ties to the area that was British mandate Palestine can have national aspirations today that lead them to claim rights to a state of their own. What I can't accept is that their aspirations give them the right and duty to slaughter Jews in order to build their state on the ruins of the State of Israel. I believe it is right and proper for Israel to seek out individuals who are convinced of that right and duty and to arrest or kill them before they can act on their malignant beliefs.

That's just one example out of scores of similar situations around the world.

re: #199 Future Blogger

It has got to be all. Yes, it will be unfair to many, but when the future of you civilization is on the line sacrifices have to be made. So sorry!

So sorry that you want to live in a snowglobe instead of the real world where real people live with real live feelings.

re: #201 profitsbeard

At least you answered the question. Personally, I think if European countries would move over to a capitalist model instead of a welfare model, a lot of the things we all worry about concerning Islam would end up being resolved. Right now, many muslims in Europe are receiving welfare checks without earning them. If they had to go out and find jobs, they would have a lot less time to whine and complain, and would more quickly assimilate into society.

re: #205 straitshooter

But you will never find Charles discussing any real solutions to the problem, only pointing out ad nauseum how terrible the problem is in Europe and soon will become here

This sentiment comes up every thread, as sure as day follows night. Why is it up to Charles or any of the people that frequent LGF to come up with solutions? We`re not political figures and neither is he, the best we can do is show that there are problems (something certain segments of our political classes ignore) and try to reach the broader, unaware public with information they`re not getting. It`s really tiresome for solutions to be demanded of us anonymous posters as if that makes an excuse for despair if a magical solution is not forthcoming here on the internet. If you care enough to ask these questions, demand answers from the people we pay to represent us, become a nuisance to them. Democracy ain`t easy, but demanding solutions and instant karma from people that aren`t in a position to give it is a waste of time. We`re paying people to do this, let`s demand it of them. LGF and other forums are not in the solution business, they`re in the information and education business.

People who advocate mass murder will not have accounts at LGF.

re: #176 GeeWiz

Then I might suggest that the "Jihad Watch" site you referenced is just a little too pussified or drank too much of PC Kool-aid. You sir/madam have been given a greater leeway here than I would have over there from your comments. If you are that sensitive to what you consider "rough" language, I suggest you find another blog to infest. At LGF we call it it as it is. Deal with it or find another blog that enforces the rules of etiquette..

re: #209 kuffarharbi

Turn the record over already, will ya? That side stinks.

re: #207 JHW

Why is it up to Charles or any of the people that frequent LGF to come up with solutions?

Because they can?

The solution algorithm is already transcending the concept of national sovereignty: If the West is attacked with WMD take out the Kaaba conventionally, if Israel is obliterated conquer the oilfields around the Persian gulf, if Japan is again hit by a nuke retaliate globally, before that stick to Enlightenment as a strategy and Clausewitzian tactics. It isn´t the requested "magical solution" but it buys the death-loving patriots of Europe time to get a life and draft a Constitution worthy of that name.

I suspect that most people frequent LGF precisely because they are aware that Islam is both in theory - AND IN PRACTICE - genocidal. If one is to go by the sermons emanating from the Holy Cities of Qom and the Mecca, even Islamic trees and kiddy cartoons are genocidal! LGF has repeatedly posted up stuff from Memri.org proving this completely sober assertion.

I suspect that most here at LGF have read a book or two by the late Oriana Fallaci and understand that the Islamic threat is vivid and real, proportional to the actual physical (and statistically dense) presence of Muslims in or near ones territory (still low in America, high in Europe).

And so now this crackpot "Shrinkwrapped" states: "The auther of the GoV piece exhibits all the signs of a regressive response to anxiety. He posits Islam as an existential threat to Europe and from that first assumption several other assumptions and their attendent conclusions follow.

Here comes (to my mind) the WHOPPER. (but everything he says is a whopper! Everything! This man "Shrinkwrapped" is crazy!)

"A second assumption is that Europe has specific cultural and ethnic attributes that must be preserved at all costs."

Here one clearly sees the cold detachment of the scientist. Shrinkwrapped could be an alien from outer space peering down on the "indigenous" Europeans (like me and Carla Bruni and Kurt Westergaard and Geert Wilders) with a cold and uncaring eye.

Yes, by Golly, there ARE things we'd like to defend at all costs and some of them even pre-date the signing of the Declaration of Independence or the truly fantastic joys of Democracy. Certainly they predate Freud, Jung and Glockenspiel (the fathers of Shrinkwrapped's crappy psycho-analytical method).

For example, off the top of my head, and seeing as I'm just back from Alba, Italy, I'd like to see the magnificent hills ringing that town forever covered with vines as they have provably been covered since ancient Roman times. But Islam forbids alcohol (how one can call a Barolo '97 "alcohol" confonds me, but then again, how many Americans call lasagne "carbs"?).

Being three hours of autostrada away from Milan, which along with beautiful Paris is a fashion capital, I'd like to see OUR "play of the sexes" being predominant as opposed to what the Muslims or even the Orthodox Jews insist upon. Yes, I'll survive if I see the tight little titties of Sarkozy's new Piedmontese wife and so will Sarkozy and his new Piedmontese wife! More importantly: would all the nudes in the Louvre and Uffizi Museums survive in an Islamic Paris and Florence?

Having once been a Juvenile delinquent (40 years ago), I would rather our people be punished by Judeo-Christian laws than by limb-und-kopf hacking Koranic ones. I have forever feelings about this. Don't ask me why - I'm sure there's a psychological component to it that might need to be analyzed!

Part two

I would not like my country changing anything too quickly. I refuse to believe that any of the European countries has already shot its full cultural load and can now easily become like some EARLY American, Australian or Canadian clone - that is to say - a huge and empty space still needful of human beings. This is not derogatory. We here, in Italy at least, are still INDIGENOUS people, like the Indians on USA reservations, (as opposed to - say - the cosmipolitan people one sees on CNN and FOX news). We have our own foods, dances, songs and occasional gambling casinos.

There is no reason for Verona, the city of Romeo and Juliet to become Muslim Arab. I say it for the benefit of future cosmopolitan tourists. Imagine the City of Lovers ruled by Sharia or imagine La Boheme no longer performed at the ancient Roman Arena because Mimi and Rodolfo had to be rightfully whipped or lapidated in Act I.

I hear that any Jew can get into Israel for the asking, but not any Colombian or Korean. I understand, condone and defend this policy. Jews are special in Israel and so are Colombians in Colombia, Koreans in Korea...

Yes, unabashedly yes, as Berlusconi said (may God and pennicilin protect him): "our culture is superior to theirs." It is, it really is. In fact, for all I admire Tetrapak and Ikea, it is even superior to Swedish culture, in fact it's the best place in the world, certainly as good as Albania to an Albanian or Texas to a Texan or Israel to an Israeli. It's home, it's casa and that's why we CARE and cannot have Dr. Shrinkwrapped's detached, psycho-analytic (I would just say psychotic) approach to the question.

They the Muslims swarming in do not love and hate their new countries the way they should... Instead, for cultural reasons (cultural coming from the word "cult" - religion) they want to - HAVE TO - colonize and conquer. That is all they know how to do, and unsurprisingly, that is all they are really good at.

I don't know if what I just said is Nazi, Fascist or genocidal or combinations thereof, but I do know that the Hindus are practically all gone from Bangladesh, the Bamyan statues are gone from Afganistan, the Christians have been squeezed out of the Holy Land; I know that there are only 2 and a half Jews left in Syria, priests get stabbed at an alarming rate in Turkey; I know that in Saudi Arabia the Gospel according to Luke is treated like Crack at Miami Airport, I know that no one has apologized for the Armenian genocide whereas some folks plan on returning to Andalusia with the same glee with which others of a more scientific bent plan to land on Mars.

And I know - and it's an uncontestable fact, that the religion of peace is at war EVERYWHERE and that with Islam, such strife is a GIVEN, it's in the cards. This along with web design and bike racing is LGF's bread and butter. The religion

Part three

The religion of peace is genocidal and certainly a bringer of strife.

I challenge anyone to deny it! So what is El Ingles' big thought crime? Predicting war, mssacres, horror, expulsions if present trends go unchanged? Nasty stuff, eh?

Here's an exercise a useful play-pretend. It's the year 1975. I predict a resurgence of Islam, a rise in terrorist acts... I predict that New York skyscrapers will no longer be safe, that there will be color-coded terror alerts, that Paris will become unsafe for Jews and Amsterdam for gays, that Sweden and Norway will become some of the most violent places in the developed world. That mothers will have to taste their baby formulas at airports. I'm crazy eh? A fascist, war-mongering, xenophobic racialist. It's 1975 and I say countries should consider selective immigration. I should be arrested, eh? How dare I doubt the brotherhood of man?!

I don't doubt it for one instant. Cain and Abel were brothers!

I have not read even a portion of a book by Oriana Fallacci, but I must say, I agree with a lot of what Mammamia says here.

I especially agree that the following sentence is a whopper:

"A second assumption is that Europe has specific cultural and ethnic attributes that must be preserved at all costs."

It's beyond "whopper" reallly. It's a preparation for a Kevorkianesque euthanasia of our ailing parent Europe.

Since I started writing on this subject in April 2002, one of the things I have worried over is that Europe would go fascist in response to Islam. I worried that the longer they waited to start fighting back, the more likely fascism would arise as a response.

I believe that my worries are being confirmed in front of my eyes.

But, I must say, that the overriding theory behind all my worrying is that I consider Europe to be an indispensible ally. I believe Europe is the father and mother of the United States. We don't want to lose our heritage.

That Shrinkwrapped would say what he says in this essay, and that he would be quoted on it in a positive light, profoundly disturbs me.

For those of you who do not know me, check out my responses to the recent rift in the blogospehere. I wrote some posts condemning Ethnic Nationalism back in the October-December time period. Additionally, I might say that those I share the Infidel Bloggers Alliance with were also at the forefront of the fight against the rise of Ethnic Nationalism.

We had to be, because Baron, Dymphna, and Pamela also wrote for Infidel Bloggers Alliance, and I, Epaminondas, WC, and Always on Watch were simply not willing to put up with the relentless support of the Vlaams Belang.

Anyway, I say all of this as a prelude to what I am going to say next;

I am quite as incapable of making my bed with people who would consider Europe to be dispensible as I am of sitting with people who think that Ethnic Nationalist parties are the solution to our confrontation with Islamofascism.

Shrinkwrapped has gone over the line. I believe he needs to be condemned as clearly as does Baron Bodissey.

re: #214 Mammamia

So what is the problem with El Ingles?! Just read his article. I've included just the first paragraph from the article down below. Was it just my poor eyesight or was genocide listed as a viable choice for achieving the goal of eliminating Islamic influence in Europe? I really can't seem to understand what the confusion is here. The very first paragraph spells is out very clearly.

A few months ago, I wrote “The Danish Civil War”, a fictional scenario which served to structure a consideration of various issues relating to the rise of Islam in Europe and the likely consequences thereof. The essay finished with the conclusion that Islam constituted an existential threat to the survival of European civilization, and that Islam’s influence on Europe therefore needed to be eliminated. It further concluded that, logically speaking, the various ways of achieving this goal could be broadly subdivided into three categories:

1) inducing Muslims to leave of their own free will,
2) mass deportations, and
3) genocide.

re: #215 Pastorius

"A second assumption is that Europe has specific cultural and ethnic attributes that must be preserved at all costs."

I think the problem here is the term I emphasized in bold. "At all costs". I don't think anyone here is suggesting Europe is not worth saving, but at what cost? "At all costs" leaves the door open to genocide (which, imo, was ShrinkWrapped's point) and also fascism- which you say you're also opposed to. Must europe sell it's soul to the fascist devil in order to save itself from the islamofascists?

Mammamia and Pastorius,

SW bases his thinking on his appraisal of Islam which from my experience is very naive.
If the person is a Muslim then there is no moderation when it comes to the 'Kafirs". For the Muslim it is a zero sum game no matter how much taqyia.

To "live and let live" he would have to become an apostate and that is very uncomfortable as we see in the situation of Ayan Hirsy Ali and others. He would lose all contact with his family and friends which is not easy especially when one considers the force of peer pressure.
The opportunities of freedom and advancement from their miserable lives in the countries they emigrated from do not form anything important in their current lives, as the bombers in Britain demonstrated. That they can so easily be "converted" to extremism is because their whole existence has been based on extremist behaviour.
Many did not emigrate to experience freedom etc., but were "sent". They are just following orders and had it not been for Bin Laden, Europe and the US would still be under a fog of kumbaya.
As for the Europeans I long gave up on them as human, especially after Tchernobyl when their companies such as Nestle etc., active in the Brazilian market place, created a shortage of milk products and meat by exporting all the clean stuff to Europe and then played the "humanist" to help the Brazilians through artificially induced shortage by sending them all the radioactive polluted produce from Europe.

The main problem will come when those who would consider genocide come into conflict with those too PC to enforce the laws while permitting the excesses of Islam.
How long before British police refusing to prosecute honour killings degenerates into worse control; a generation, two, before civil strife becomes manifest?

Some Americans pronounce the word ask "?sk" and
some Americans pronounce it "ax". If America woke up one morning and everybody said "ax" that would be no problem. But if all Americans woke up and found there was no democracy that would be a problem.

re: #216 gman

So what is the problem with El Ingles?! Just read his article. I've included just the first paragraph from the article down below. Was it just my poor eyesight or was genocide listed as a viable choice for achieving the goal of eliminating Islamic influence in Europe? I really can't seem to understand what the confusion is here. The very first paragraph spells is out very clearly.

Ciao gman,

You have not read the essay carefully. If you want to know what El Ingles would do if he were "dictator", read the closing... The rest is what WILL (according to El Ingles) happen should the genocidal religion of Islam continue to expand unhindered and be allowed to fester in Europe.

re: #220 Mammamia

suggest you read my post more carefully. Why is genocide included as a "logical" option in El Ingles' article?

re: #215 Pastorius

I worried that the longer they waited to start fighting back, the more likely fascism would arise as a response.

I believe that my worries are being confirmed in front of my eyes.

Until last year, I never thought that fascism had a chance to be resurrected on any major scale. I see now that, indeed, such a thing could happen. The likelihood makes me want to puke.

Someone above--I forget which commenter--said that resorting to "genocide" would cause the West to lose itself and what the West stands for. I agree with that comment.

Of course, the "genocide" of Muslims wouldn't include only those of the Arab race. Islam is an ideology and can cross the boundaries of race.

Personally, I am not willing to accept that Islam doesn't pose an existential threat.

Surely, surely, most here recognize that the threat exists.

The phrase "existential threat" means that we may be extinguished. In this case, we are talking about the possibility that the entire European culture may be extinguished.

When Iran threatens Israel, saying Israel must be "wiped off the map," we understand that as an existential threat. Israel may go to war with Iran over just that threat. In fact, according to our President George Bush, the United States may go to war with Iran over the threat to Israel. "All options are on the table."

Were Iran to actually follow through on their threat, we would expect Israel to do whatever they had to do to avoid being decimated.

That's what we do in a war.

In World War II we dropped two atomic bombs on Japan, and we firebombed Dresden. In the Civil War, we burned Atlanta to the ground. Victor Davis Hanson has written on the subject of what kind of overwhelming force is needed to win wars.

That does not mean that we need to be planning a genocide where we round up and kill Muslims en masse. However, I believe we understand here that Islam is an existential threat to Western Civilization. The testimony of experts on our own Congressional floor has repeatedly told us that it is highly likely that America will be hit with nuclear weapons in the next twenty years.

I believe we would be fools to step back and say that Islamic conquest is not a mortal threat. And, if we are hit with ultimate weapons, I would hope that we would fight back in kind.

In my opinion, Shrinkwrapped is preparing us for a deadly complacency as surely as El Ingles is, apparently (I say "apparently" because I did not read El Ingles' essay), preparing us for genocide.

El Ingles writes an essay where a genocidal response by a population on whom genocide is being perpetrated is presented as a logical reaction. Maybe in reality it will be so, hopefully it won't, but I don't think he deserves the opprobrium for fleshing out an opinion any more than a dystopian science-fiction writer.

The fact is religious genocide has occurred in Europe before and life and the West has gone on. Europe's survival this time has more to do with whether its institutions, both elected and not, start reflecting the will of the people rather than trying to direct it.

re: #217 Sharmuta

I think the problem here is the term I emphasized in bold. "At all costs". I don't think anyone here is suggesting Europe is not worth saving, but at what cost? "At all costs" leaves the door open to genocide (which, imo, was ShrinkWrapped's point) and also fascism- which you say you're also opposed to. Must europe sell it's soul to the fascist devil in order to save itself from the islamofascists?

"At all costs" is indeed an interesting phrase. The dilemma for us in the West is that we believe that certain actions will cost us our culture and our souls.

The Islamofascist has no problem declaring a war of genocide from the outset against Jews or Christiians or non-monotheists or insufficiently-pure Muslims or Muslims of a fifferent sect or tribe. We in the West do not believe in declaring genocide as an objective, knowing that such a goal is fundamentally incompatible with liberal, democratic, pluralistic values.

The problem arises when our restraint comes up against their unbridled fanatcism. We see this already in the conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza. The Israelis wish to show restraint as human beings with Western values and as citizens of a world that holds them to the standard of those values. However, the Hamas rulers of Gaza use that to their advantage: they force the Israelis to make the unpalatable choice between behaving like decent human bings and acting with the necessary measures to protect the existence of Israel and the lives of its citizens.

"If we do that, we'll be just as bad as they are" is a suicidal trap for Westerners. Just as we should not seek to pre-emptively destroy entire other cultures or peoples in the name of self-defense, we should not shy away from defending ourselves effectively and thoroughly even if our enemies insist on fighting to the death of every one of their number. Remember that when Islamofascists offer peace, it's the peace of our submission to their rule, whereas when we offer them peace, it's the peace of co-existence. If their concept of "at any cost" means that they would rather die than co-exist with us, then I would prefer that we live even if we have to give into their insistence on death before compromise.

re: #226 stuiec

I don't believe we have to compromise our ideals nor compromise our defense. On the battlefield, our soldiers should do what they're trained to do- take out the bad guys. I don't believe anyone on LGF would argue otherwise.

As far as our domestic situation is concerned, we should likewise not compromise that we are a nation built on the Rule of Law. As Thanos has often stated- to defend our culture, we must defend our laws. We enforce our laws- if there is resistance to the enforcement, the authorities stiffen their tactics. This may lead to stand-offs, possibly resulting in violence, but it is not foreign to law enforcement, nor is it genocidal or compromising our ideals of defending the Rule of Law.

My point, I guess, is that we place the burden on them. If they want to be genocidal madmen, there is not much we can do to change that but stand our ground, defend ourselves, and defend our laws. They will either die trying to perpetrate their genocide on us, or they will stop.

Sharmuta,
I agree we ought to enforce our laws. And, one of the laws we ought to enforce is that against sedition. Advocating Sharia and Jihad (which is a component of a strict interpretation of Sharia) ought to be considered sedition. Thing is, that defines many Muslims as seditious for practicing their religion, and we don't have the balls to enforce our own laws in that regard, do we?

re: #228 Pastorius

I believe the issue surrounding sedition laws is an actual state of war needs to be in place. We don't have a formal declaration from Congress- hence the problem. I could be wrong about that, but hey- we can't even enforce our traffic violation laws around the UN building, or our national borders, so maybe we ought to start with a few of those items. How about deporting people in the country illegally? Some enforcement now lacking should be brought to bear first- then we could worry about some others.

As far as I know, Adam Gadahn was charged with sedition.

Which only goes to prove my point; Adam Gadahn is hardly the only American to hold those pro-Jihad/pro-Sharia opinions, he is not the only American working for that cause to destroy America and replace it with Sharia, but we don't do anything about the thousands of others.

re: #230 Pastorius

No- he was charged with treason.

And I'll add Pastorius, that I don't disagree with you that sedition laws should be used. My point was I believe there needs to be a certain threshold in order for them to be used. Please feel free to search the law and bring your findings here, since I'm not sure I'm correct.

I'll also add, Pastorius, that it's not entirely fair of you to be critical of ShrinkWrapped here since you haven't read that which he is criticizing. Maybe you should read the el pining-for-a-fascist-police-state essay before thinking SW is so out of line.

Sharmuta,
I understand the concept. I've read such things before, and I think I understand where Gates is coming from. El Ingles piece is something like 15 pages long, and frankly I don't feel like wasting my time on it. Do you really think I should?

My problem is with Shrinkwrapped making statements such as the following:

1) if we have learned nothing from the war in Iraq, we should have at least been able to recognize that Islamism does not represent the future of Islam.

Oh really?!? If anything the lesson of Iraq is exactly the opposite. Iraq is now an Islamist government and the Iraqi Christians have been forced to flee the country. Does Shrinkwrapped not care that an Islamist government has tolerated, and likely even encouraged, religious cleansing?

2) Many Muslims around the world may cheer when Israeli, American, or European infidels are murdered in the name of Islam but the vast majority have no interest in entering an existential fight they know they would lose.

I don't think the lesson of the war, thus far, is that Muslims would lose. They have, instead, made progress. Muslims have more power in Europe. And, in American, now Condi Rice and the State Dept won't even allow the word Jihad to be used. In the UK, in the span of one week, a) the government declared that Islamic terrorism should be called anti-Islamic activity, b) the government decided to pay welfare benefits to the multiple wives of Muslims, and c) the Archbishop of Canterbury floated the idea of combining Sharia law with British law. Additionally, the EU is attempting to declare criticism of religion to be racist hate speech. I could go on and on. You know the stories. You read them here. How is it that Shrinkwrapped believes that his complacent paradigm ought to be the rule for all of us. If not, we are suffering from regressive response to anxiety? B.S. Islamophobia is a natural response. I would remind you, there are no moderate Muslim political organizations, media outlets, academic institutions, or governments anywhere in the world of any appreciable size.

3) Fundamentalist Islam's rigidity means that it is fragile.

This is the kind of Natan Sharansky happy-talk that brought us to approve of the election of Hamas in Gaza. Furthermore, Islamic fundamentalist rigidity has allowed Islam to thrive as a source of fascist power for 1300 years, going so far as to have dominated Western civilization for about 600 years.

4) apostates are now routinely being spared the death penalty Islam has traditionally demanded, women who have been raped are not being stoned to death, and FGM (female genital mutilation) is being increasingly criticized from within Islam itself. Further, there is an immense fifth column living within the heart of Muslim populations that, once engaged and exploited, will destabilize Islam as never before.

I would like to believe this is true, but instead, FGM is gaining ground in Europe and the Americas.

5) Europe will recover its history and culture, begin to reproduce, or go the way of other failed civilizations.

Easy for him to say. Impossible for me to say, without choking on my own bile.

Shrinkwrapped is overstating his case as a reaction to El Ingles going over the line. That he says the things he says does not make them true. Only children and schizoids believe that their words have a magic power to create reality.

As I have said before, I believe Shrinkwrapped has crossed the line, and I am here stating my case so that, hopefully, fewer people will buy his.

Sharmuta,
I am confused on the distinction between treason and sedition

Treason is defined as:

1. the offense of acting to overthrow one's government or to harm or kill its sovereign.

Sedition is defined as:

1. incitement of discontent or rebellion against a government.

The two are very close, and treason sounds like the greater offense to me, as it is more specific.

re: #235 Pastorius

HERE is some information on treason. Excerpt:

The official definition of treason, as taken from 10 United States Code, Chapter 115, (Treason, Sedition, and Subversive Activities), Section 2381 (Treason) states: “Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this Title but not less than $10,000.00; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.”

Treason is the only crime that is specifically defined within the Constitution of the United States, and yet it has been rarely charged. According to some legal eagles, a successful prosecution for treason requires proof of action over words. In the entire history of the United States, fewer than forty people have been charged with treason, and less than that were found guilty. Benedict Arnold, the first treasonous American, fled to Great Britain before he could be charged, and traitors Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were charged with espionage, rather than treason. American citizens who aided and abetted the enemy over radio broadcasts were charged with treason, but Jane Fonda, who essentially committed the same offense, was not.

Sedition may be easier to prove in court.

re: #234 Pastorius

No- the essay is not 15 pages long.

As for SW's assessment on islam- that is a separate matter from his assessment on the essay, imo. I don't believe this article was posted to discuss SW's position on islam, but rather his opinion on the writer of a genocidal fantasy.

re: #235 Pastorius

Treason is the greater offense. Treason is the action, sedition is the incitement.

re: #236 AlwaysOnWatch

Now that I've researched it a bit- it would be hard to prove sedition in court, as sedition laws were considered to be unconstitutional, violating the First Amendment. Looks like the closest we have to sedition laws would be the Logan Act.

Sharmuta,
I guess I would have to say that because Shrinkwarpped misses the mark so badly in his understanding of the mortal threat posed by Islam, and the gravity of Europe's importance to Western Civilization, I do not think he ought to be quoted on this subject.

In my opinion, he has shown himself to not have a real understanding of the problem, so what is his opinion worth?

I think Charles' condemnation of the piece at Gates sufficed.

I respect Charles' opinion enough, because I respect the worldview he presents, as demonstrated by the stories he chooses to post, and by the way in which he frames those stories.

My original point was that Shrinkwrapped presentation of the existential threat posed by Islam flies in the face of Mark Steyn's book America Alone. As such, it is, in my opinion, a paradigm shift, if we are to take his position seriously.

I have a hard time believing we are actually being asked to take his opinion seriously.

1) Islam is an existential threat.

2) Europe does have specific cultural and ethnic attributes that must be preserved at all costs. That is not to say that I believe industrialized genocide is needed, nor that it ought to be entertained as a solution. That is not how we would have to fight the war. However, I would say that I do believe it is likely that we will find ourselves having to fight this war as mercilessly as we fought World War II. We have often been accused of genocide for our prosecution of that war. Atomic bombs and firebombing of Dresden are cruel methods. But, that's what we believed we had to do to save civilization. And, there are people in the Pentagon right now who are working on such plans with regard to this war.

3) Europe does seem to demonstrate that it has almost no ability, at this time, to defend itself culturally or demographically. And, I am not willing to sit idly by and let it go the way of other failed civilizations.

Do you really disagree with what I am saying here in these three points? That is the crux of my argument.

re: #240 Pastorius

Do you really disagree with what I an saying here in these three points?

Yes- I disagree with the "at all costs" for the reasons I've stated above. This has now become a circular discussion, so I'll respectfully bid you a pleasant evening, and hope to see you around soon.

Thanks, Sharmuta.

:)

re: #215 Pastorius

I believe Europe is the father and mother of the United States.

That would have been an incestuous relationship, but since Africa is the mother of the United States it was only a rapist one.

Sacred Plants,
Just for the record, I am not the one who voted your comment down.

:)

re: #236 AlwaysOnWatch

I've done further research, and there is the Smith Act that is still on the books:

Whoever knowingly or willfully advocates, abets, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the United States or the government of any State, Territory, District or Possession thereof, or the government of any political subdivision therein, by force or violence, or by the assassination of any officer of any such government; or

Whoever, with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any such government, prints, publishes, edits, issues, circulates, sells, distributes, or publicly displays any written or printed matter advocating, advising, or teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any government in the United States by force or violence, or attempts to do so; or

Whoever organizes or helps or attempts to organize any society, group, or assembly of persons who teach, advocate, or encourage the overthrow or destruction of any such government by force or violence; or becomes or is a member of, or affiliates with, any such society, group, or assembly of persons, knowing the purposes thereof--

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.

If two or more persons conspire to commit any offense named in this section, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.

There where convictions under this act, later overturned by the Supreme Court in 1957, so the constitutionality of this act may also be in question.

re: #244 Pastorius

Yeah- I dinged it down. Let's keep some perspective here. islam raped Africa far more than Europe.

re: #246 Sharmuta

I agree with both possible understandings of the last sentence.

re: #247 Sacred Plants

I double entendred and didn't even know it!

re: #25 Sharmuta

Yes, the reason why Islam is a threat is because of the internal corruption of the West, with ideas like multiculturalism. This is a problem separate from Islam, and is is in my opinion more important to overcome. If the West had the will to do it, militarily, the whole of the Islamic world could be made to surrender in a year or less.

What the writer of the GoV piece is doing is to reverse cause and effect—to him, Islam is the cause of the weakening of the West, while everything points to the opposite, that the ever weakening West allows itself to be threatened by decadent Islamic backwardness. It is nothing other than classic scapegoating. Amazing and disturbing to see someone advocate anything so that is so thoroughly discredited so openly.

re: #227 Sharmuta

My point, I guess, is that we place the burden on them. If they want to be genocidal madmen, there is not much we can do to change that but stand our ground, defend ourselves, and defend our laws. They will either die trying to perpetrate their genocide on us, or they will stop.

The thing that I worry about is that when they insist on dying in the effort to perpetrate their genocide on us, and it ends up with us having to kill all of them in self-defense, the world will point at us (being the survivors) and call us perpetrators of genocide. The example of Israel being labeled a genocidal, apartheid state for taking the steps necessary to protect its citizens and its existence as a nation is very instructive.

re: #250 stuiec

Should it come to that then there will be no world left to point.

/38th parallel