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 RetweetBawer: An Anatomy of Surrender

Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 6:37:01 pm PDT

Bruce Bawer has an excellent piece at City Journal on “creeping sharia,” the cultural and legal front of the global jihad—and it isn’t only happening in Europe: An Anatomy of Surrender.

Islam divides the world into two parts. The part governed by sharia, or Islamic law, is called the Dar al-Islam, or House of Submission. Everything else is the Dar al-Harb, or House of War, so called because it will take war—holy war, jihad—to bring it into the House of Submission. Over the centuries, this jihad has taken a variety of forms. Two centuries ago, for instance, Muslim pirates from North Africa captured ships and enslaved their crews, leading the U.S. to fight the Barbary Wars of 1801–05 and 1815. In recent decades, the jihadists’ weapon of choice has usually been the terrorist’s bomb; the use of planes as missiles on 9/11 was a variant of this method.

What has not been widely recognized is that the Ayatollah Khomeini’s 1989 fatwa against Satanic Verses author Salman Rushdie introduced a new kind of jihad. Instead of assaulting Western ships or buildings, Khomeini took aim at a fundamental Western freedom: freedom of speech. In recent years, other Islamists have joined this crusade, seeking to undermine Western societies’ basic liberties and extend sharia within those societies.

The cultural jihadists have enjoyed disturbing success.

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370 comments

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1 Charles  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 6:37:52pm

And no, this doesn't mean we need to start building concentration camps.

2 troonbop  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 6:40:53pm

Canadian readers will be familiar with the success of so called "human rights" commissions which have been aiding in the jihad against freedom of speech. I cant figure out whether they're stupid or evil, but then i figure, hey, why choose?

3 macintush  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 6:41:05pm

Edumakashun is the answer.

4 DesertSage  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 6:42:24pm

This guy has known what is going on for quite a while. I read his book, While Europe Slept, three years ago.

And he's no Right Wing extremist, so he should have a lot of credibility with the Left, but unfortunately he doesn't.

5 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 6:43:23pm
This “stunning whitewash of radical Islam,” as Little Green Footballs blogger Charles Johnson put it, “helped keep the British public fast asleep, a few weeks before the bombs went off in London subways and buses”


Quote!

6 ted  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 6:43:47pm

Must Read.

This “stunning whitewash of radical Islam,” as Little Green Footballs blogger Charles Johnson put it, “helped keep the British public fast asleep..."


Congrats Charles. You da' Man !

7 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 6:43:53pm
Instead of assaulting Western ships or buildings, Khoameini took aim at a fundamental Western freedom: freedom of speech.

And their ally is Political Correctness.

8 rockdad  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 6:44:24pm

Keep the masses in the moment, like a good little liberal, and they'll never see it coming, until the knock on the door.

9 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 6:48:22pm
The key question for Westerners is: Do we love our freedoms as much as they hate them? Many free people, alas, have become so accustomed to freedom, and to the comfortable position of not having to stand up for it, that they’re incapable of defending it when it’s imperiled—or even, in many cases, of recognizing that it is imperiled. As for Muslims living in the West, surveys suggest that many of them, though not actively involved in jihad, are prepared to look on passively—and some, approvingly—while their coreligionists drag the Western world into the House of Submission.

But we certainly can’t expect them to take a stand for liberty if we don’t stand up for it ourselves.

Touché.

10 snowcrash  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 6:48:49pm

Bawer lays it out simply and accurately.This article should be required reading for all politicians.

11 Dianna  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 6:51:37pm

re: #1 Charles

Not ever.

However, it does mean that we stop kowtowing to Islam, and assert that our rights and our civilization are good, and worth defending. Never mind the flaws and past injustices, they're not the point.

No ideal is ever realized. The point is to keep striving to meet the ideal.

12 LoFlyer  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 6:52:37pm

'Sage, glad to see you are still posting, I take it your house and family is safe?

13 mean Gene  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 6:52:49pm

No, Charles, it doesn't.
But combine all of what Bruce is observing with such headlines and stories about how the police are suddenly aiding and abetting sharia (like today's story in the spin-off links about how a Muslim couple in the UK converted to Christianity and the police's only solution to the threats against them was for them to move) and we see that very suddenly non-muslim people of the world have run out of places to run away to.
What the solution will turn out to be I don't know.
But I do know that, right now, we have not come to a way to exist together.
Well, I take that back...WE had figured out a way to live with all sorts of (but apparently not all of) our fellow men in near peace.
It wasn't until the rape gangs of Oslo, the gay-bashing morality police of Amsterdam, the jizya-collecting car-b-qu'ers of France, and now the extra-legal sharia courts of the UK that things began to go south.
After I first saw "A Clockwork Orange," all those years ago I said to myself, if the police ever become the gangs we really are in trouble.
Well, the police sit on their hands while the gangs murder, burn and threaten law-abiding people...and we are all in trouble because of it.

14 macintush  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 6:53:38pm

"Things that are worse than war"

This guy's good.

15 Dianna  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 6:54:44pm

re: #13 mean Gene

The police are constrained by three things: law, practicality, and politics. It must absolutely suck to be the police in Britain right now.

16 Ma Sands  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 6:54:54pm

re: #1 Charles

Concentration camps? The opposite needs to be done...that's the essence of "assimilation": I went to a week long seminar once, where the speaker was talking about how to reach rebellious teens...keep them apart from their peers in crime, and surrounded with people living the good life, until the kids "get it"...the trend toward all Muslim public schools here in this country, for one thing, just is not a good thing...

17 nyc redneck  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 6:56:59pm

re: #10 snowcrash

Bawer lays it out simply and accurately.This article should be required reading for all politicians.

and all citizens of this country who value their freedom.

18 Future Blogger  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 6:58:29pm

re: #1 Charles

But how many Saudi "students" should be allowed in the US studying whatever Saudi students study when they are in the US? I'm thinking ZERO is the correct number.

19 LoFlyer  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 6:58:33pm

As far as news reports go, I'll read halfway into the story and there is no doubt of the blatant bias sympathetic to the "militant, activist, Islamic terrorists" subject of the story, scroll to the title and it always reads AP. Twice is coincidence, the next is enemy action. The AP is our enemy...

20 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 6:58:36pm

It makes my head spin to think how fast the American msm would cry "fascist" if Republicans or Christians demanded limits on free speech because they didn't like a carton or movie. I think if the mohammed cartoons had been Jesus cartoons, the msm would have re-printed them in a heartbeat without thinking twice about the sensitivity of the offended group.

But then, as Hitchens noted- it was out of fear they didn't reprint the motoons- Republicans and Christians don't threaten violence, and that really brings Bawer's point home- the msm really is on the front line, surrendering. Not only does caving to the threats of islamists make the threats effective, it makes the msm's free speech meaningless.

21 Dianna  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 6:58:41pm

re: #16 Ma Sands

All-muslim public schools - provided that American values are enforced - are not a problem. The problem starts when the schools start kowtowing to sharia.

22 nyc redneck  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 6:59:19pm

re: #15 Dianna

The police are constrained by three things: law, practicality, and politics. It must absolutely suck to be the police in Britain right now.

it sure does. read, "londonistan" by melanie phillips. a real eye opener.

23 DesertSage  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 6:59:42pm

re: #12 LoFlyer

'Sage, glad to see you are still posting, I take it your house and family is safe?

Yeah, we're OK. Thanks for your thoughts.

24 Charles  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:00:42pm

It's kind of sad that I feel I have to post something like that first comment - but the idiots who think we need to embrace fascism are doing more to discredit the anti-jihad movement than CAIR could ever do.

25 Roentgen  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:01:05pm

...here’s Frankie Beverly and Maze with an outrageously funky version of We Are One.

Roentgen to Charles: Requesting more fund embeds at LGF. Thanks!

26 Dianna  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:01:41pm

re: #20 Sharmuta

Of course they would! In an article about the mo-toons - which didn't show a one of the cartoons - the NYT used the elephant dung Virgin to illustrate how one could offend religious sensibilities.

A striking piece of hypocrisy. Particularly since they proclaimed the mo-toons offensive in an editorial!

27 Roentgen  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:01:43pm

fund = funk

28 mjazzguitar  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:02:07pm

re: #13 mean Gene
Yeah, but it can't happen here/

29 LoFlyer  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:02:09pm

re: #23 DesertSage

Yeah, we're OK. Thanks for your thoughts.

Great!

30 6pat6  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:03:24pm

re: #14 macintush

I've seen a couple of his other videos. He sure as hell gets it!

31 wolfie  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:04:05pm

re: #14 macintush

"Things that are worse than war"

This guy's good.

Yippeee!

McCain/Zo '08 ...is he old enough?

32 Dianna  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:04:13pm

re: #22 nyc redneck

I already did. I found it depressing, rather than eye-opening.

The British - never mind (even while acknowledging and studying, their lapses - have a culture worth preserving. They should be proud of it, and stand up. But they've somehow imbibed the insanity of guilt, and ceased to believe in the gift they've given the rest of the world.

33 Ma Sands  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:05:32pm

re: #21 Dianna

The one my son teaches at, a high school, keeps the kids in the building until Friday prayer is over, whether the kids attend the prayer time or not...the only foreign language taught is Arabic...several other segregating elements also...all the kids are first or second generation immigrants from Somalia...most of the kids are bused in there from my inner-city, out to the high class, rich neighborhood --too far for parents to get to, to have any interaction with the teachers or staff...red flags all over the place, I would think...

34 Dianna  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:06:17pm

re: #24 Charles

Since certain idiots want to tar you with the "fascist" brush, I don't see that you have an alternative. It's really miserable when you have to stave off three sets of lunatics.

35 LoFlyer  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:06:30pm

My tribute to western journalism. Lost my faith

When you lose your paycheck, don't blame me...

36 Dianna  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:08:26pm

re: #33 Ma Sands

They've surrendered to the islamists, then.

Is your son seeking a different job?

37 opinionated  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:10:00pm

What is worse then surrendering yourself, is to force your friends to surrender.

US presses Israel to reach Gaza cease-fire before Bush visit

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

And act so despicably even as the enemy explain exactly what they intend to do if you allow them:

Hamas Chief Sees Truce as a ‘Tactic’

CAIRO (AP) — The chief of Hamas said Saturday that his group would accept an Egyptian proposal for a cease-fire with Israel, but that it would be a “tactic” in the group’s struggle with the Jewish state.

Khaled Meshal, the Hamas leader, said in an interview with Al Jazeera television that Egypt had proposed a six-month truce between Hamas, the Palestinian militant group that controls the Gaza Strip, and Israel. He said his group was ready to cooperate, but added, “It is a tactic in conducting the struggle.” He called it “normal for any resistance” to sometimes escalate, sometimes retreat from fighting. “Hamas is known for that. In 2003, there was a cease-fire and then the operations were resumed.” He warned of an explosion of violence in Gaza if Israel rejected the truce.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Explain to me again how Bush/Rice are better then Carter.

38 Ma Sands  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:10:08pm

re: #36 Dianna

How I wish...he was let go from another school, suddenly, at Thanksgiving, and feels himself fortunate to get this job...started in Jan.

39 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:13:27pm

re: #18 Future Blogger

That's a strange solution to this issue. How in the world does barring saudis from entering the United States keep the msm from whitewashing islam?

40 mjazzguitar  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:13:43pm

if 3 out of 4 mosques preach anti-west extremism, then this needs to be addressed. How?

41 gman  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:13:52pm

Thanks for that article, Charles.

Bawer's articles and books never disappoint.
While Europe Slept is a must read.

42 Joan Not of Arc  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:15:07pm

Where has our intestinal fortitude gone? We would never have questioned open attacks on the IRA or the Roman Catholic Church but we would be glad to bend over for Islamists. What makes these terrorists less of a threat than the IRA or ETA or the Tamil Tigers? Since when has Christianity been a threat? What the hell happened to us?

43 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:15:23pm
44 gman  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:16:11pm

for the religious among us I also recommend
Stealing Jesus: How Fundamentalism Betrays Christianity

45 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:16:27pm
46 Dianna  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:17:27pm

re: #40 mjazzguitar

Monitor, record, prosecute.

Deport the imam if he's an immigrant. Sue the major supporters if they're citizens.

Generally, make this sort of thing expensive and uncomfortable for the "go along to get along" crowd.

Make anything except assimilation uncomfortable.

I don't like it. I really don't like the idea of coercing people. But I'll take that over the alternatives, which I find completely unacceptable.

47 nyc redneck  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:17:36pm

we're not teaching the truth abt. islam in our schools. and in polite society we continue w/ the rop mantra. it is absurd to continue this delusional approach to the danger that is growing around the world. "creeping sharia". yes it is coming. spreading every where it gets an opening. how was it ever stopped in the last 1400 yrs? by standing up to it. by blocking it's every outrageous demand, by refusing to capitulate, by exposing it, by undermining it. for the good of our own civilization and the good of all people under the sway of this onerous screed.

the dynamics of islam are such that always the worst aspects of it rise to power.

48 Dianna  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:18:34pm

re: #42 Joan Not of Arc

What's the Church doing in there with the IRA and ETA?

49 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:20:04pm
50 Gumby  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:20:13pm

It also seems that B HUSSEIN Obama is well versed in limiting freedom of speech in his own way. (with the help of the MSM clowns)

51 Future Blogger  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:20:22pm

re: #39 Sharmuta

I'm looking at the big picture. I didn't even read the post at the top.

But since we're here, how many Saudi students would you like there to be in the US?

52 Ma Sands  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:20:39pm

re: #44 gman

I got a good, good protection from my Dad-the-newspaperman all the years I was growing up --he would never accept any label applied to him, and that "way" rubbed off on me thoroughly... :) Both directions.

53 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:21:04pm
Because Hirsi Ali refuses to compromise on liberty, Garton Ash has called her a “simplistic . . . Enlightenment fundamentalist”

The elites are really stretching if that's the best they can come up with to call Ayaan. Mark me down as an Enlightenment Fundamentalist too, please.

54 macintush  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:22:33pm

re: #45 savage_nation

Hi, Savage

55 Dianna  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:22:54pm

re: #47 nyc redneck

A suggestion: in arguments, or when speaking to people, don't talk about "islam", talk about shari'a; keep the focus on a truly repugnant system that denies people equality before the law as individuals, but insists on the supremacy of the wealthy males of one religious group.

Even moonbats can see the problem.

56 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:22:59pm

re: #51 Future Blogger

I'm already aware of your view of the "big picture" and your "solution".

That you're not even going to read the post reeks of agenda.

57 LoFlyer  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:23:45pm

Hello Savage, Where the heck are you now?

58 nyc redneck  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:24:11pm

re: #49 ploome hineni

people do not believe it, when you try to explain islam to them

some people do. keep trying, find a way to get thru to the others.

59 BignJames  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:24:15pm

re: #49 ploome hineni

Lots of folks, maybe most, are very ignorant of islam.

60 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:24:33pm
61 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:25:38pm
62 Dianna  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:25:49pm

re: #49 ploome hineni

Don't even mention islam. Talk about shari'a.

Leave the whole "religious" aspect out, because people are pre-disposed to not listen, for a host of reasons.

63 Dianna  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:26:35pm

re: #61 savage_nation

A whole pot by yourself?!

Share, damnit!

/oh, wait...

64 badsysop  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:26:54pm

re: #19 LoFlyer

As far as news reports go, I'll read halfway into the story and there is no doubt of the blatant bias sympathetic to the "militant, activist, Islamic terrorists" subject of the story, scroll to the title and it always reads AP. Twice is coincidence, the next is enemy action. The AP is our enemy...

Don't forget Al-reuters as well. Here is the latest from these guys on this article on North Korea's Olympic Torch Relay:

North Korea, which the United States and others say has one of world's the worst human rights records, does not allow rallies that anger Pyongyang's leaders.

It isn't actually true that North Korea actually has a terrible record on human rights, apparently. It is just the opinion of the United States and unknown "Others" I guess.

65 jaunte  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:27:24pm

re: #61 savage_nation

Good evening savage; are you coffeeing up to go somewhere, or just stay up here?

66 Joan Not of Arc  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:27:24pm

re: #48 Dianna

Many people consider Catholicism far more fundamentalist than Islamofascism. I'm not sure where someone would get that idea but whatever.

67 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:27:55pm
68 haakondahl  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:28:14pm

re: #56 Sharmuta

I'm already aware of your view of the "big picture" and your "solution".

That you're not even going to read the post reeks of agenda.

Agreed. This smells like 'Soon-to-be-Banned-blogger".

69 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:28:31pm

re: #66 Joan Not of Arc

Many people consider Catholicism far more fundamentalist than Islamofascism. I'm not sure where someone would get that idea but whatever.

Maybe from the msm?

70 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:29:07pm
71 solomonpanting  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:31:40pm

The flourishing of western culture over the centuries, when compared to Islamic societies, puts another spin on


The cultural jihadists have enjoyed disturbing success.

72 bikermailman  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:31:50pm

re: #57 LoFlyer

Hello Savage, Where the heck are you now?

Where in the world is...Savage? :P

73 experiencedtraveller  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:31:55pm

re: #43 ploome hineni

what is to be done Charles?

wince

74 RedWhiteAndJew  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:32:14pm
Well, the police sit on their hands while the gangs murder, burn and threaten law-abiding people...and we are all in trouble because of it.

One more reason why the advise linked to in my name is bested heeded by all, while it is still an option.

75 coquimbojoe  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:32:25pm

re: #49 ploome hineni

people do not believe it, when you try to explain islam to them

What don't they believe? The part about the cork in the butt to keep out the 99 dragons after you die? Which part because other than than that...

/Sorry, feeling sick and tired of sharia creep.

76 LoFlyer  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:33:20pm

re: #61 savage_nation

At home in Lincoln at my kitchen table eating a ham and swiss sandwich and drinking a pot of coffee.

Good for you, I prefer ham, turkey and Swiss, glad your home and not on the road...

77 bikermailman  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:33:34pm

re: #66 Joan Not of Arc

Many people consider Catholicism far more fundamentalist than Islamofascism. I'm not sure where someone would get that idea but whatever.

From them having no frakkin' idea about Catholocism. This is coming from a non Catholic, btw.

78 Charles  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:33:35pm

re: #43 ploome hineni

what is to be done Charles?

I've been doing what I think should be done for more than 6 years now.

Is this supposed to be a choice between concentration camps and surrender? Because that's a false choice, and I don't want anything to do with it.

79 Charles  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:34:31pm

re: #43 ploome hineni

what is to be done Charles?

And you, by the way, have been posting whatever you wanted to post at LGF for almost that entire time. Are you now going to accuse me of not doing enough?

80 RedWhiteAndJew  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:35:24pm

#73 experiencedtraveller

re: #43 ploome hineni

what is to be done Charles?

wince

Shades of "peace in our time," heh?

81 LoFlyer  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:35:25pm

re: #78 Charles

I've been doing what I think should be done for more than 6 years now.

Is this supposed to be a choice between concentration camps and surrender? Because that's a false choice, and I don't want anything to do with it.

No shit!

82 winston06  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:36:06pm

Europe's tragic end will come in either of these ways: 1- total Islamization of the continent, 2- Civil War

How sad!

83 RedWhiteAndJew  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:36:13pm

PIMF

bested

84 Idle Drifter  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:36:20pm

re: #14 macintush

"Things that are worse than war"

This guy's good.

Wow, this is great! This is beyond good!

85 mjazzguitar  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:36:47pm

re: #75 coquimbojoe

Doesn't the devil sleep in your nose too?

86 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:36:57pm
87 Dianna  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:37:25pm

re: #66 Joan Not of Arc

Really.

Catholicism has problems - particularly historically - but it's not killing anybody. People who think that way need psychological help.

88 tradewind  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:38:25pm

Better grab this rope, Brits... it's gonna take all you got to stop Londonistan from becoming an official reality:
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

89 Armigerous  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:39:23pm

Yea,well personally I divide the world into 2 parts myself...Mohammed's toilet and NOT Mohammed's toilet

90 BignJames  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:40:05pm

re: #68 haakondahl

Hmmm...Jeane Dixon?

91 Intrepid  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:40:18pm

re: #70 savage_nation

Naw, the truck will be in the shop all day tomorrow. I get to stay home tomorrow and do nothing! whew

Hey Savage - how's the daughter doing? And what's the scoop on Job Ass?

92 tradewind  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:40:21pm

Re #88...
(Sorry, PIMF... you have to log in. The gist is that a conservative MP is actually gaining on Ken Livingstone, the Mad Sheik of London).

93 bikermailman  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:40:57pm

re: #82 winston06

Europe's tragic end will come in either of these ways: 1- total Islamization of the continent, 2- Civil War

How sad!

I'm guessing both, with the recent rise (re-rise?) of the neo-Nazism in Europe. Won't be enough to shake off the new overlords, but it will make the public (the leftist public) get behind their overlords. Once they put the nazis down, then the rest of them are toast. I feel for Europe these days.

94 coquimbojoe  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:41:05pm

re: #85 mjazzguitar

Doesn't the devil sleep in your nose too?

Only after Prune juice or cabbage...

95 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:41:28pm
96 RedWhiteAndJew  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:42:04pm

#66 Joan Not of Arc

Many people consider Catholicism far more fundamentalist than Islamofascism. I'm not sure where someone would get that idea but whatever.

Fundamentalism comes in many forms (including the secular pinko kind; they just use "reactionary" instead of "apostate"). The question is, what kind of value system is being "fundamentaled."

As Goldwater said:

I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!

97 snowcrash  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:42:23pm

re: #55 Dianna
If I could give you more than +1 for that I would. That has been the key to getting my friends to pay attention.

98 LoFlyer  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:42:49pm

re: #84 Idle Drifter


Food for thought, Don't think we have to worry about this being by western media...

99 Joan Not of Arc  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:43:24pm

re: #87 Dianna

Big freaking word. Whatever problems individual Catholics have or had or some excesses taken in the past are nowhere near the core of Islamic terrorism or behaviour, past or present. People should closely examine the Catechism, history and contemporary Catholic thought and tell me if those things are anywhere near the insanity of Islamofascism.

100 ggt  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:43:42pm

Good Evening Lizards! It's been colder and wetter in the Very Far Western Suburbs today.

This is a drive-by post -- Been running and running this weekend.

Have a great evening Lizards and hope to see you tomorrow!

101 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:44:14pm
102 LoFlyer  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:44:40pm

My bad...re: #98 LoFlyer

Food for thought, Don't think we have to worry about this being broadcast by western media...

103 Intrepid  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:44:47pm

re: #78 Charles

I've been doing what I think should be done for more than 6 years now.

Is this supposed to be a choice between concentration camps and surrender? Because that's a false choice, and I don't want anything to do with it.

Knowledge brings freedom, and the more folks crank out the knowledge, the better.

It is power, after all.

I don't see much difference between a Sharia lover and a Skinhead who throws up a Nazi salute.

Both see "Others" who must be done away with or excluded from a free life.

Got no time for either.

104 bikermailman  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:45:30pm

BTW, in my last, I wasn't defending the new fascists in Europe, merely saying that they (unfortunately) are the only ones who are standing up for the locals. That's why they're gaining ground, because the people are afraid and their governments won't protect them.

105 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:46:23pm
The key question for Westerners is: Do we love our freedoms as much as they hate them? Many free people, alas, have become so accustomed to freedom, and to the comfortable position of not having to stand up for it, that they’re incapable of defending it when it’s imperiled—or even, in many cases, of recognizing that it is imperiled. As for Muslims living in the West, surveys suggest that many of them, though not actively involved in jihad, are prepared to look on passively—and some, approvingly—while their coreligionists drag the Western world into the House of Submission.

But we certainly can’t expect them to take a stand for liberty if we don’t stand up for it ourselves.

As Thomas Paine said, "What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly." Our freedoms were won by our forefathers and mothers. I do not think we esteem them, or the cost at which they came to us.

106 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:46:57pm
107 guzziguy  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:47:30pm

re: #104 bikermailman

BTW, in my last, I wasn't defending the new fascists in Europe, merely saying that they (unfortunately) are the only ones who are standing up for the locals. That's why they're gaining ground, because the people are afraid and their governments won't protect them.

Unfortunately, that sounds much like what we're experiencing at our borders, particularly the southern one.

108 jorline  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:47:34pm

re: #75 coquimbojoe

What don't they believe? The part about the cork in the butt to keep out the 99 dragons after you die? Which part because other than than that...

/Sorry, feeling sick and tired of sharia creep.

Now that's funny...Thanks for the link. Brings a whole new meaning to the old adage, "put a cork in it".

I would rather have monkeys flying out of my butt than 99 dragons flying in!

109 gman  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:48:07pm

Here is an excerpt from an interview that Bruce had with Front Page where I think he captures the essence of the problem quite well.

For decades, Western Europe has been admitting huge numbers of immigrants for decades, most of them Muslims. But the way they’ve handled them has been disastrous. The European elite hates America so much that instead of recognizing the U.S. as a model of how to integrate newcomers, they rejected the American approach entirely. They chose to view immigrants as members of groups rather than as individuals, as dependent children rather than adults who are potentially self-sufficient and responsible, and as exotic alien creatures who should remain exotic rather than as Europeans in the making. When I was first living in Norway, politicians and journalists were in the habit of congratulating Muslims for having turned Norway into a “colorful society” – a “fargerik felleskap.” Nobody seemed to realize how condescending this was, or how at odds it was with Martin Luther King’s dream of a colorblind society. I was also shocked to hear people refer to immigrants’ European-born children as “second-generation immigrants.” And their children were “third-generation immigrants.” This summed up an incredibly dramatic difference in the ways Americans and Europeans thought about immigrants. My father’s parents were Polish, but never in my life had it occurred to me to think of myself as a third-generation immigrant or of my father as a second-generation immigrant. The idea was ludicrous. We were Americans, period.

110 Dar ul Harb  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:49:11pm

re: #13 mean Gene

It wasn't until the rape gangs of Oslo, the gay-bashing morality police of Amsterdam, the jizya-collecting car-b-qu'ers of France, and now the extra-legal sharia courts of the UK that things began to go south.
After I first saw "A Clockwork Orange," all those years ago I said to myself, if the police ever become the gangs we really are in trouble.
Well, the police sit on their hands while the gangs murder, burn and threaten law-abiding people...and we are all in trouble because of it.

The U.S. Second Amendment is in part about people whom the armed servants of government no longer choose to protect retaining the capability of defending themselves. Almost as bad as the tyranny that disarms all to rule all, or the tyranny of the majority that disarms and then persecutes the minority with its agents, is the tyranny of a majority that disarms the minority and is indifferent or hostile to their protection.

The U.S. had seen such treatment of the freed slaves by the authorities after the Civil War, and one of the purposes of the Fourteenth Amendment was to make the Second effective against those state governments who would deny the most fundamental equal protection, protection against private violence, to those who had survived slavery. Often, it was the lawful authorities of the day who themselves became hooded riders by night.

In many parts of Europe, where the citizens are virtually completely disarmed by law, having the police stand aside or even tacitly condone Islamic violence, for whatever reason, leads one to the conclusion that the so-called "trade-off" of general disarmament for lower levels of lethal violence may no longer be such a good deal, if it ever was. For such a tradeoff to work, one must believe that the government will actually be there to protect you when and where you need it, and not just mopping up afterwards around your dead body and making its best effort at prosecuting the killer.

111 Intrepid  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:49:33pm

re: #101 savage_nation

Oh, Job Ass took off at 2pm, said he was going to take the daughter out to dinner at 5. Hasn't showed up yet. Called her up and she could hear other girls in the background.

She is PISSED!

Woot - maybe that'll help her come to her senses?

112 gymnast  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:49:57pm

As fast as American academia has surrendered to Islamism , the best way to find the Administration building of an American university is to look for the minaret. If the Administration building doesn't have a minaret it's only because they haven't collected enough student fees to build it, it's a Baptist affiliated school, they don't have an MSA Chapter yet, or they are waiting to get the plans back from codes and permits.

113 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:50:11pm
114 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:50:28pm

re: #109 gman

Nice link. I discussed immigration with a Hindu immigrant one evening, and he said pretty much the same thing- America is superior to Europe in integration.

115 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:51:09pm
116 bikermailman  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:51:57pm

re: #107 guzziguy

Unfortunately, that sounds much like what we're experiencing at our borders, particularly the southern one.

You're absolutely right. We're already seeing the emerging examples of our version of it. Individual towns are passing laws, like no housing for illegals, because the Feds aren't doing their job. Or, the man near Houston (can't recall his name) who shot the two dirtbags, because of the influx and the local police not taking care of business. At some point, the center breaks down. The difference between us and Europe is that they have no (real) history of individualism, so they turn to 'other' based fascism. We have a history of individualism, so you see things breaking down into feudal, local examples of people taking care of things themselves.

117 nyc redneck  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:53:02pm

re: #55 Dianna

A suggestion: in arguments, or when speaking to people, don't talk about "islam", talk about shari'a; keep the focus on a truly repugnant system that denies people equality before the law as individuals, but insists on the supremacy of the wealthy males of one religious group.

Even moonbats can see the problem.

i like to talk abt. what is going on in sharia countries . women can't drive cars, hands and feet are cut off as punishment for misdemeanors, gay people are strung up from cranes, women are stoned if they are raped, and old men get to molest little girls who they have "married".
tho shocking, these topics are good conversation starters. and easily verifiable.
sometimes i start out on a softer note. i just ask "how would you feel if you had to marry your cousin?" yes, goober?

118 ladycatnip  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:53:38pm

#105 Sharmuta

As Thomas Paine said, "What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly." Our freedoms were won by our forefathers and mothers. I do not think we esteem them, or the cost at which they came to us.

Insightful and straight to the heart of the matter.

Now the question is, how do we influence several generations of people who take our freedoms for granted and have absolutely no concept of the bondage of shari'a.

119 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:54:29pm
120 Elydo  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:55:25pm

re: #104 bikermailman

True. And it's a bad thing. When I see the BNP getting votes, even when I know they are protest votes, it worries me. When I realise that if I didn't know better, I'd be voting for them too because they are not only the sensible voice on some critical issues, like immigration, but that they are the ONLY voice, it makes me very very concerned for the future of my country. It's all too easy to envisage a future where, if the Islamists win, we get shari'a and dhimmification; one large concentration camp in roughly the same shape as the country. If the racists win, well we've had that happen before. Neither outcome is acceptable, both are entirely possible. Any third option is damn near praying for a miracle, which could happen, but there's certainly no guarantee.

A very good article. Once again it underlines the point that the West is doing more to harm itself than anything the Islamists are trying. We fix our own tent and the external threat minimises astonishingly. Why is that evident truth so hard to see for so many?

/Rhetorical. Perhaps?

121 mjazzguitar  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:55:38pm

re: #94 coquimbojoe

Only after Prune juice or cabbage...

I just had to find it.

Mohammed would suck water up his nose and then blow it out because “Satan stays in the upper part of the nose all night.”[164] We have yet to find a single Muslim who will defend this strange doctrine and practice of Mohammed.
122 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:55:56pm
123 snowcrash  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:56:15pm

I can't believe my online library catalog has "While Europe Slept". Just put it on hold.

124 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:56:38pm
125 stevieray  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:57:07pm

Just a point to consider:

The hope for reformation and the embrace of modernity and Western values by Islam, as attractive as that may seem at first glance, is all but guaranteed to be crushingly bloody. The powers-that-be of the Islamic world and their devout followers would react with genocidal violence to the mass abandonment of Islam [the only event likely to trigger the necessary level of reform], and would resist body and soul the extensive top to bottom rewrite such a reform would entail. Aside from the new apostates, any non-Muslim living within the Muslim world as well would be mercilessly slaughtered, for they would be blamed for the fitna; enticing the pious from the one true path with their wily, evil kuffar ways. I estimate the dead at 250 - 500 million. No joke.

So please don't think the long awaited, just around the corner, nascent [yeah, riiight] Islamic reform is the best route to a bright future... I think it is the second bloodiest path after outright world wide genocide.

126 experiencedtraveller  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:57:36pm

Sharmuta quoting Thomas Paine.

:::swoon:::

127 LoFlyer  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 7:58:03pm

re: #110 Dar ul Harb

I appreciate your thoughts, keep thinking!

128 solomonpanting  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:00:16pm

re: #109 gman

That's part of American Exceptionalism. To be an American is to share an idea. To be French or German or what-have-you is to share bloodlines. Sharing an idea is far easier and makes for a smoother integration and assimilation.

129 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:00:23pm
130 haakondahl  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:00:26pm

re: #79 Charles

And you, by the way, have been posting whatever you wanted to post at LGF for almost that entire time. Are you now going to accuse me of not doing enough?

Body SLam!

131 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:01:59pm
132 jaunte  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:02:01pm

re: #124 savage_nation

Sick, evil monster. Poor child.

133 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:03:15pm

re: #118 ladycatnip

Now the question is, how do we influence several generations of people who take our freedoms for granted and have absolutely no concept of the bondage of shari'a.

When I talk of islam and shari'a to the unaware, I go straight to sura 4:34- the wife beating. All of the people I've discussed this with were appalled, and didn't question the authenticity of my statement, perhaps in part because I told them they could find it in the koran themselves. I've also sent people here- to LGF. I think Charles does a great job in shining the light on this matter. I think once you've made one connection for people, they will either seek more knowledge on their own, or they will at least be more skeptical of the whitewash in the future.

134 solomonpanting  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:03:37pm

re: #131 taxfreekiller

Al Gore, world class fool.

in fact Universe class fool.

And to think some folks believed he had no class.

135 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:04:02pm
136 x-ray  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:04:20pm

Extreme measures are only needed when a sickness like this is ignored and allowed to flourish.

Right now we can probably fix it with shining light on it. If that light is blocked the treatment will only get more invasive and painful to all involved.

137 Elydo  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:04:29pm

re: #125 stevieray

Something to keep in mind after the genocide in Europe thread; it serves Muslim interests. The motivators of the worldwide Jihad do not care about individuals or population groups. Remember Dinnerjackets (I think it was him) statement about welcoming a nuclear exchange with Israel, as only part of the Islamic world would be destroyed, yet all of Israel would be. Any mass movement against a Muslim population group not in response to an overt Muslim action will immediately unite the Islamic world (though even in response would unite a significant portion), something I've no doubt many Jihadis devoutly pray for. An uprising in Europe against Muslims, genocidal or not, would be welcomed by these people. I would suspect they'd actually try to make it worse, it would better serve them. It would only mark the beginning of an all-out Us against Them.

Just another minor reason to try desperately to avoid it at all cost.

/Wonder if Bodissey thought of that. Ass.

138 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:05:23pm

re: #126 experiencedtraveller

LOL!

139 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:05:43pm
140 Intrepid  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:06:12pm

re: #121 mjazzguitar

Maybe Mo suffered with allergies? I know my sister sneezes enough this time of year for us to think she's got the devil up there.

141 Dar ul Harb  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:06:46pm

re: #118 ladycatnip

#105 Sharmuta

Insightful and straight to the heart of the matter.

Now the question is, how do we influence several generations of people who take our freedoms for granted and have absolutely no concept of the bondage of shari'a.

It's got to start with returning some semblance of balance to the teaching of American History. Do we start from the proposition that self-government is superior to monarchy (or caliphate)? Why do we have the Constitution we have? Dust off those chartering documents like the Declaration of Independence, and talk about some aspects of them. One wonders if the basics of what was called civics are even taught anymore...

142 Bacchus's daddy  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:08:41pm

re: #112 gymnast

As fast as American academia has surrendered to Islamism , the best way to find the Administration building of an American university is to look for the minaret. If the Administration building doesn't have a minaret it's only because they haven't collected enough student fees to build it, it's a Baptist affiliated school, they don't have an MSA Chapter yet, or they are waiting to get the plans back from codes and permits.

All of your universities are belong to us.

/and this really isn't funny anymore

143 gman  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:11:58pm

re: #125 stevieray


The powers-that-be of the Islamic world and their devout followers would react with genocidal violence to the mass abandonment of Islam [the only event likely to trigger the necessary level of reform]

The mass abandonment of Islam event?
Why the boolean logic?

144 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:12:24pm
145 Dar ul Harb  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:12:50pm

re: #127 LoFlyer

I appreciate your thoughts, keep thinking!

Well, I don't have as much time to post anymore, but I'll certainly do that...

146 sparrowlake  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:15:01pm

Would a freeze on immigration from Sharia countries be fascistic?
Would strict enforcement of border security be fascistic?
Would mandatory military service for landed immigrants as a condition of obtaining citizenship be fascistic?
Would deportation of pro-Sharia illegal immigrants or of immigrants who violate the criminal laws be fascistic?
Would strict enforcement of existing criminal laws be fascistic?

147 stevieray  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:15:42pm

re: #137 Elydo

Where did you get the idea I was talking about the non-Muslim world moving against Islam? I was talking about Muslims moving to leave or change Islam... a genocide triggered in house, not from the outside.

148 Elydo  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:17:19pm

re: #146 sparrowlake

"Would mandatory military service for landed immigrants as a condition of obtaining citizenship be fascistic?"

Not strictly sure about the others, but I think that one's nudging the line.

149 abolitionist  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:17:37pm

Since Bawer mentioned both of these men, I thought this link might be appropriate here.

Theo van Gogh and Pim Fortuyn on the E.U.
- a pleasant conversation, subtitled in English. Theo interviews Pim about his views on the European Union, June 5, 1997. There will be no more quite like it, of course.

150 wolfie  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:17:40pm

The Left will not defend the West nor the American political tradition.
At best, they take it for granted, as "given," and therefore as worthless, as the air they breathe. But all too often, they actively see to destroy it.

151 Dianna  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:18:25pm

re: #135 savage_nation

You're faced with one problem, though: we're programmed to think well of the father of our child. It's a female thing.

Even when we know better. So brace yourself, there's a chance she'll have forgiven him by tomorrow morning.

I know this by observation; it doesn't always make me happy.

152 gman  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:18:38pm

re: #146 sparrowlake

Would a freeze on immigration from Sharia countries be fascistic?
Would strict enforcement of border security be fascistic?
Would mandatory military service for landed immigrants as a condition of obtaining citizenship be fascistic?
Would deportation of pro-Sharia illegal immigrants or of immigrants who violate the criminal laws be fascistic?
Would strict enforcement of existing criminal laws be fascistic?

Are you being facetious?

153 Elydo  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:18:46pm

re: #147 stevieray

No no, I wasn't actually speaking of your post, I was referring back to the GoV postulation. Call it a spin-off thought.

154 Dianna  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:18:58pm

re: #144 taxfreekiller

Do you think he cares? I don't. He sold himself long ago.

155 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:20:16pm

re: #146 sparrowlake

Would mandatory military service for landed immigrants as a condition of obtaining citizenship be fascistic?

No- that leaves the door open for abuse.

156 Dianna  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:20:23pm

re: #146 sparrowlake

Only #3 is even vaguely problematic, since it violates the whole concept of equality before the law.

Otherwise, I have not the least problem with your proposals.

157 Dianna  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:21:44pm

re: #147 stevieray

No genocide!

Hell, I'm still furious about Rwanda, and I've been pinning people to walls about the Sudan since 1984.

158 stevieray  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:22:59pm

re: #143 gman

The mass abandonment of Islam event?
Why the boolean logic?

What else would start an Islamic reform? If the downtrodden masses trapped in the seventh century could do it by words, from within, it would be underway now. They've been in a death spiral for damn near five centuries now, there have been attempts to change the crushing restriction of the faith over that time, and yet nothing has really changed... the texts of the faith are essentially unchanged, and the Koranic literalists still sit in the seats of power. It will take a massive shock to the ruling classes of Islam to force an unwanted change upon them, and even then most clerics would resist, and demand their followers do the same.

159 stevieray  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:24:02pm

re: #153 Elydo

No no, I wasn't actually speaking of your post, I was referring back to the GoV postulation. Call it a spin-off thought.

Oh. OK. Nevermind

/Latella mode off

160 mjazzguitar  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:24:18pm

re: #146 sparrowlake
I think the correct way to say it is fascist, without the ic.
But you are 100% correct, those policies should be implemented.
And people need to know what the koran and hadith really has to say, which is absurdity after absurdity, like mohammed cutting the moon in half, etc. etc.

161 Dianna  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:25:28pm

re: #150 wolfie

Approach them differently. Never bring up islam as a religion; always talk about opposing shari'a.

Curiously, that works a lot better. I know - and you know - that sharia grows out of the intersection between islam and old tribal traditions, but a lot of people who cannot seem to grasp the notion of an inimical religion (that isn't christianity) get the idea of sharia law as a menace.

I put it down to our sue-happy society.

162 mjazzguitar  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:25:53pm

re: #148 Elydo

"Would mandatory military service for landed immigrants as a condition of obtaining citizenship be fascistic?"

Not strictly sure about the others, but I think that one's nudging the line.

I didn't see that one. I don't think babies born here should have automatic citizenship, either.

163 wolfie  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:26:12pm

re: #146 sparrowlake

I'm not so sure the mandatory military service is a good idea.
And if someone who is fleeing sharia comes here from an Islamic country, I would welcome her/him. But I see no problem in excluding anyone who is a Wahabi/Salafist from immigrating. Haven't we done that w/ Nazis and Communists...i.e., party members?

164 sparrowlake  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:26:36pm

re: #152 gman

Are you being facetious?

No. These are obviously rhetorical questions.
IMO if all or most of these measures were instituted the Islamist tide could be stemmed without resort to fascistic measures like concentration camps/mass deportations/etc.
But there is no evidence that the political will exists to do so.

165 Dianna  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:27:32pm

re: #160 mjazzguitar

#3 remains unacceptable, unless in the context of a universal service requirement.

166 stevieray  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:28:37pm

re: #157 Dianna

No genocide!

Hell, I'm still furious about Rwanda, and I've been pinning people to walls about the Sudan since 1984.

I'm not advocating genocide! I'm simply pointing out that any attempt to force an overhaul of Islam [from within] would result in rivers of blood.

/jeez, does anybody actually read posts, or do they just skim for key words?

167 Bacchus's daddy  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:29:05pm

re: #146 sparrowlake

Would a freeze on immigration from Sharia countries be fascistic?
Would strict enforcement of border security be fascistic?
Would mandatory military service for landed immigrants as a condition of obtaining citizenship be fascistic?
Would deportation of pro-Sharia illegal immigrants or of immigrants who violate the criminal laws be fascistic?
Would strict enforcement of existing criminal laws be fascistic?

These would all be fascist policies, because they would inconvenience new, likely Democratic party, voters.
/

168 gman  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:29:26pm

re: #158 stevieray

What else would start an Islamic reform? If the downtrodden masses trapped in the seventh century could do it by words, from within, it would be underway now. They've been in a death spiral for damn near five centuries now, there have been attempts to change the crushing restriction of the faith over that time, and yet nothing has really changed... the texts of the faith are essentially unchanged, and the Koranic literalists still sit in the seats of power. It will take a massive shock to the ruling classes of Islam to force an unwanted change upon them, and even then most clerics would resist, and demand their followers do the same.


I was thinking more along the lines of change in Europe. I recommend that Europe follow our lead with regards to the integration of foreigners. If you want people to integrate, treat them like the adults they are and not like helpless children.

169 mjazzguitar  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:30:07pm

re: #163 wolfie

We've even deported people who have lied about their nazi past.

170 experiencedtraveller  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:31:03pm

re: #165 Dianna

Is it acceptable to have a fast track to citizenship for military service?

171 Dianna  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:31:29pm

re: #166 stevieray

I read the whole post. I'd advocate, in the situation you posit, intervention.

At no point did I think you were advocating something so repugnant; I was simply (not clearly enough) stating my objection to letting such a thing happen. Who the victims are doesn't matter to me; the thing itself is the thing that must be avoided.

172 Dianna  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:32:39pm

re: #170 experiencedtraveller

Why would it be needed?

Five years is not terribly long, after all.

I'm open to persuasion, but I don't see the need.

173 Bacchus's daddy  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:32:48pm

"Fascist": def. Any doctrine, proposal, thought, or expression that is disagreeable to those of socialist inclination, or inconvenient to the political implementation of socialism in the U.S.

174 Charles  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:32:57pm

re: #164 sparrowlake

No. These are obviously rhetorical questions.

IMO if all or most of these measures were instituted the Islamist tide could be stemmed without resort to fascistic measures like concentration camps/mass deportations/etc.

But there is no evidence that the political will exists to do so.

There will never be a time when this country resorts to "fascistic measures like concentration camps/mass deportations/etc."

Whether or not your ideas are put into effect. It's not going to happen.

175 Elydo  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:34:55pm

re: #162 mjazzguitar

To be honest, I've no problem with the idea of mandatory service being required for voting rights. It was one of Heinleins more controversial ideas, but I think it's along the correct lines. I expanded it to include non-military forms of service, primarily governmental, before I came across the fact that Heinlein himself had intended much the same. It really didn't come across that way in the book...

Of course, the idea of having MORE people in the government will likely send much of the conservative base here into apoplectic shock, but to my mind, the main problem with democracy is expecting people to vote on issues they have no education about. They rely on "experts" to provide them with the salient information to allow the layperson to decide what's best, and politicians to guide the whole process.

Look at the global warming situation.

Run people through two years of National Service, military, governmental, whatever, before they get the right to vote. Most will likely opt for non-military roles, make them governmental in some form. Basically, run people through the system before they get the chance to influence it, so they at least have a basic knowledge of how it works. Plus, government being out of touch with the people is a bit harder when the majority of the people either are or have been the government.

I could write a long essay on this, and intend to at some point so I can primarily see if any of the ideas have merit, and secondly improve upon them, but at the moment I have exams and more immediately need sleep, heh.

176 wolfie  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:35:43pm

re: #162 mjazzguitar

I didn't see that one. I don't think babies born here should have automatic citizenship, either.

A friend of mine who is studying immigration law thinks Congress could correct this w/o a Constitutional amendment, i.e., with simple legislation. The Constitution refers to people born here who are "under the jurisdiction of the United States." It took an act of Congress to give Amerindians citizenship, since those on reservations were not considered under US jurisdiction, even though they were obviously under US sovereignty. He thinks the children of illegals (not legals, tourists, etc.) would be regarded as not "under" our jurisdiction. But Congress would have to pass a law so stating.

177 Syrah  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:36:10pm

To reform Islam, the Qur'an and the Haddith would need to be gutted.

178 gymnast  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:36:21pm

Our Islamist enemies believe that they are fighting for our souls and that we, as a nation, do not care enough or know enough to fight back. Our enemy believes that your soul belongs to Islam and if they cannot claim it for Islam, your infidel body can go to hell. Sharia is part of the frosting on the Islamist cake.

179 wolfie  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:36:47pm

re: #167 Bacchus's daddy

These would all be fascist policies, because they would inconvenience new, likely Democratic party, voters.
/

LOL! Too true, too true!

180 Dianna  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:37:03pm

re: #175 Elydo

You didn't expand it - Heinlein initially posited it! He simply didn't expand on the civilian aspects of service.

181 stevieray  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:37:25pm

re: #171 Dianna

Oops! Sorry, I misunderstood!

OK, nevermind.

/another emily latella moment

182 Bacchus's daddy  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:37:29pm

re: #174 Charles

There will never be a time when this country resorts to "fascistic measures like concentration camps/mass deportations/etc."

Whether or not your ideas are put into effect. It's not going to happen.


Nevertheless, this country has been "fascist" for almost 8 years now.

/sorry for being a wiseass, and as a recent hatchling, let me extend my sincere appreciation to you Charles for all you do.

183 Elydo  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:38:22pm

re: #174 Charles

America did impound all people of Japanese ethnicity after Pearl Harbour, unless my history once again needs updating. I'm reluctant to stand by "things I've heard" after the Aztec smallpox blankets faux pax...

184 wolfie  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:39:00pm

re: #169 mjazzguitar

We've even deported people who have lied about their nazi past.

That's right, now that you mention it. And we should be able to the the same for some imam who claims to be a Sufi mystic but ends up preaching jihad at the local mosque.

185 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:39:22pm
186 Elydo  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:39:55pm

re: #180 Dianna

I expanded it in my own thinking before I found out Heinlein had initially intended it. He really didn't imply any non-military options for Federal Service in any version of the book I've read.

187 Charles  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:40:01pm

re: #183 Elydo

America did impound all people of Japanese ethnicity after Pearl Harbour, unless my history once again needs updating. I'm reluctant to stand by "things I've heard" after the Aztec smallpox blankets faux pax...

Yes, and we all know what a wonderful reputation the WWII internment has.

188 Dianna  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:40:28pm

re: #181 stevieray

It's ok. I'm about to owe Elydo an apology, because I only got as far as the astounding arrogance of his claiming to have expanded Heinlein; he is not alone in his having initially missed that RAH didn't limit service to military service; I've simply gotten way over sensitive on that particular point.

189 profitsbeard  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:40:28pm

People (in the media, government, religious institutions and education) are constantly apologizing for Islam BECAUSE THEY KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ISLAM.

They are criminally negligent and abysmally derelect in the duty to our Civilization which is: to know what the subject is before they pontificate about it and blithely exonerate it.

If they would do their damned homework on the topic, they would be grovelling in mortification for the ridiculous drivel they spew, from their multiculti cocoons of blithering imbecility, about Islam's once-and-future glories, when it is built upon dismal, violent, terroristic, misogynistic and contemptuous-of-them-as-infidels "unchanging" dogmas.

From the President to the Press to "progressive" cartoonists like Gary Trudeau, they have ALL been whitewashing what is nothing but another crapulous a form of medieval mindlessness -and militantly vicious intolerance - with their sweetly stuporous siren songs about "the religion of peace".

They should be apologizing to their countryment and women for betraying their trust: to and uphold our freedoms.

The few who have spoken up have either been assassinated (Pim Fortuyn, Theo Van Gogh, Salman Rushdie's Japanese translator of "The Satanic Verses", et al) or forced into hiding (Geert Wilders, Kurt Westergaard, Hirsi Ali, etc.)

Instead of standing with those rising in defense of the West and our liberties, the MSM, the majority of the politicos, too many preachers, and avante garde artists of every calibre (always first in line to mock our side for "torture" when panties are put on a terrorist's head...or to slander Christianity with elephant dung hosannas) have caved to the terroristic intimidation and are selling out the Civilization that gave them birth and freedom for the slowly-poisonous gruel of "not being killed by jihadists if I keep quiet".

The treason stinks from every venue, and the cowardice is as palpable as it is repellent.

More Bawers, fewer quislings!

190 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:41:27pm
191 realwest  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:42:25pm

re: #183 Elydo No your history about the Japenese is correct. Course there was a Democrat in the White House at the time (and a Democratically controlled Congress).
Just saying...

192 Dianna  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:42:34pm

re: #183 Elydo

Some time, I'm going to walk you through the fact that the document that the initial charge of spreading smallpox through distributing the blankets of those who'd died of smallpox to the indians is missing from the box it should reside in in the British museum.

It's very disturbing.

193 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:42:46pm
194 Charles  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:43:16pm

I think I've made it pretty clear by now that I'm not going to allow "round em all up and put em in camps" talk at LGF, haven't I?

Because if that's the solution you want to advocate, I'll repeat what I've said many times before: start your own blog and advocate it there.

195 sirsurfalot  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:43:21pm

re: #40 mjazzguitar

if 3 out of 4 mosques preach anti-west extremism, then this needs to be addressed. How?

How about revoking their 501(c)(3) tax exempt status just for starters?

196 Elydo  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:44:36pm

re: #185 buzzsawmonkey

The whole idea needs a lot more work, which I will spend the summer exploring, but so far I've had positive reactions to the people I've run it by. Replace stagnant bureaucracy with limited term required service, necessitates the streamlining of the vast majority of minor functions as low-level civil servants don't get the opportunity to use paper to entrench themselves in order to protect their jobs, the people who get the vote have not only chosen to accept the responsibility, thus leading to higher voter turnout and more value being attributed to it, but also they voting public is better informed, if not about the exact issues at hand then about the way the system works, which hopefully makes blindsiding a bit more difficult etc etc...

197 wolfie  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:45:00pm

re: #175 Elydo

I don't like mandatory service for voting, although, if I had my way, no one could vote before age 21 unless they were in the military or performing equivalent public service.
I would like to see mandatory service for hand-outs.

198 sparrowlake  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:45:01pm

re: #174 Charles

There will never be a time when this country resorts to "fascistic measures like concentration camps/mass deportations/etc."

Whether or not your ideas are put into effect. It's not going to happen.

Amen to that, Charles.
But I do fear that the effin' nazis will continue to capitalize (in Europe and possibly in North America too) on the apparent lack of will to deal with Islamofascism by using legal and constitutional means.

199 Bacchus's daddy  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:45:45pm

re: #189 profitsbeard


Excellently put.
Today's mandatory religion of "political correctness" and "multi/culti" makes people feel like "sinners" if they properly examine Islam, and discover that it is as much a bloodthirsty political movement as it is a "religious" one.

200 RedWhiteAndJew  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:45:47pm

#150 wolfie

The Left will not defend the West nor the American political tradition.
At best, they take it for granted, as "given," and therefore as worthless, as the air they breathe. But all too often, they actively see to destroy it.

Too true. Also, they fail to realize that many of the freedoms they enjoy have their roots in Judeo-Christian tradition. The West didn't evolve in a vacuum.

When dictators such a Stalin, Mao, or Pol Pot decide to experiment with the void, we witness the primacy of the government over the people. We witness democide.

Then, of course, there is islam: a regime of delayed gratification of the urges of the flesh; where the reward for not fornicating and not drinking in this life, is fornicating and drinking in the next.

I honestly don't know what kind of inroads islam has made in Japan, but I suspect it's not much. Whether it is adopted Western culture following WWII, or their native ancient practices, the Japanese appear to have more self-respect than most Western nations, and that self-respect acts like white blood cells, fighting off infection of the body politic.

I single out the Japanese, because they had a Western template imposed upon them, and they accepted it and thereby flourished. I really wish more Americans and Europeans valued what they've been given as a birthright.

201 Dianna  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:46:41pm

re: #185 buzzsawmonkey

Then clearly you have always at least been eligible for military service.

When I was in my 20's, I was too short - females were supposed to be 5'5".

In my 30's, I developed an entirely unimportant heart-murmur; it has absolutely no deleterious effect, but it's still disqualifying me from military service.

Now, frankly, I don't even bother asking. I'm over 40 - and the military is a young person's game.

So, essentially, I'd always have been deprived of the right to vote. And you want me to have the right to vote.

202 Charles  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:46:46pm

re: #196 Elydo

The whole idea needs a lot more work, which I will spend the summer exploring, but so far I've had positive reactions to the people I've run it by. Replace stagnant bureaucracy with limited term required service, necessitates the streamlining of the vast majority of minor functions as low-level civil servants don't get the opportunity to use paper to entrench themselves in order to protect their jobs, the people who get the vote have not only chosen to accept the responsibility, thus leading to higher voter turnout and more value being attributed to it, but also they voting public is better informed, if not about the exact issues at hand then about the way the system works, which hopefully makes blindsiding a bit more difficult etc etc...

Go ahead and work on it. But don't expect it to get a good reception from me, because what you're talking about is two steps away from a police state. You're advocating a huge expansion of government power and intrusiveness in people's lives, and I think it stinks.

203 laZardo  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:48:38pm

Well, that presents a problem for them.

We have Dar ul Harb. LOL.

204 Dianna  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:49:02pm

re: #186 Elydo

First, I'm sorry! I went off half cocked.

What follows is an explanation. I'm still very sorry, I shouldn't have done it, anyway.

I saw that after I'd posted. Sorry.

That's a point I've gotten very sensitive and irritable on. Not your fault, you just got smacked. I'm still sorry, I shouldn't have done it. My fault entirely.

205 Elydo  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:49:54pm

re: #194 Charles

If that was at me, I wasn't advocating anything. I was pointing out a fact, that's all. I'm not from the US, my history teaching never focused on it. What reaction the Japanese internment currently manifests among US citizens I have no idea.

re: #192 Dianna

Please do, I'd be very interested even were it not now a point of personal embarrassment. It's all the more interesting given the myth seems to have originated from a British Officer actually suggesting such a tactic. I don't know if it was ever enacted.

206 wolfie  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:50:17pm

re: #200 RedWhiteAndJew

Amen.

207 gman  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:50:45pm

re: #164 sparrowlake

No. These are obviously rhetorical questions.
IMO if all or most of these measures were instituted the Islamist tide could be stemmed without resort to fascistic measures like concentration camps/mass deportations/etc.
But there is no evidence that the political will exists to do so.

a bit stringent for my taste
In most situations, I believe it's wise to remember "never say never" and that the way we deal with gray areas within any set of rules also defines our humanity.

208 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:52:07pm
209 wolfie  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:53:47pm

re: #202 Charles

Go ahead and work on it. But don't expect it to get a good reception from me, because what you're talking about is about two steps away from a police state. You're advocating a huge expansion of government power and intrusiveness in people's lives, and I think it stinks.

I agree.
The notion that this would replace our federal bureaucracy is naive in the extreme. It would only radically increase its size and its power.

I like the idea of doing something (prefereably military service) to earn things like college grants, however.

210 Elydo  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:54:32pm

re: #204 Dianna

No worries [grin]

re: #202 Charles

I'm not certain about the accuracy of the police state label. The idea is to diminish the separation between the people and the government, dilute the government, if you like, rather than try and limit it. An opposite approach to a similar goal. Like I say, it needs work. The government would be more present, but have less influence over the people as the people would have more power over the government.

Needs work. It's quite likely it would never be practically feasible.

211 Dar ul Harb  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:55:36pm

re: #141 Dar ul Harb

By "balance" in teaching American History, I mean teaching something other than reciting the notable flaws of slavery, genocide of the indigenous peoples, patriarchal domination, etc. to the exclusion of teaching about American distinctiveness (or exceptionalism, if you like) relative to the rest of the world at various points in its history.

Is is safe at last, almost 20 years after the Cold War, to teach in an American school that Communism was an inhuman evil, and to explain why?

Why did it take over a century before black Americans actually enjoyed the political equality they had supposedly gained following the Civil War?

What advantages did different immigrant groups see in the United States (by comparison with their home countries) that attracted them to our shores?

How did the social and political status of women change in the U.S. during the 20th Century, in comparison to the rest of the world?

What was the U.S. fighting against in World War II, that required such sacrifice and such a profound mobilization of national effort?

What effects did technologies developed in the United States have at home and upon the rest of the world?

I think the answers to questions like these can be very illuminating, and can help teach that history is about ways of finding out what happened in the past, not just parroting what it says in "the book," or memorizing key dates.

212 Charles  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:55:48pm

re: #210 Elydo

No worries [grin]

re: #202 Charles

I'm not certain about the accuracy of the police state label. The idea is to diminish the separation between the people and the government, dilute the government, if you like, rather than try and limit it. An opposite approach to a similar goal. Like I say, it needs work. The government would be more present, but have less influence over the people as the people would have more power over the government.

Needs work. It's quite likely it would never be practically feasible.

You're going to dilute the government by giving it much more power over citizens?

Quite a trick.

213 Dianna  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:56:58pm

re: #202 Charles

I'm not exactly in disagreement, but I do have a question; it's based on knowing people who went through the "universal draft" of the 1950's and early 1960's:

It seems to have been a cohesive experience, one that led to shared experiences and values across ethnic and income lines. Would that be an acceptable idea?

As phrased, that's very amorphous, but, with more detail, and if truly universal, would an 18-month service requirement be necessarily a bad thing?

214 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:57:49pm
215 mjazzguitar  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:58:20pm

re: #185 buzzsawmonkey

If national service became necessary for the exercise of a franchise,

So to open a Burger King you'd have to perform some kind of national service first? Huh?

216 wolfie  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:58:37pm

re: #210 Elydo

The best way to diminish the separation between people and government is to diminish the size of government so that people can govern themselves as much as possible. Decentralization is key, as well. We have far too many things being decided at the federal level that ought to be at the state or local level.

217 Dianna  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:59:39pm

re: #205 Elydo

It's initially cited in Francis Parkman's history; all other cites come from there. Or, more properly, all other cites have been of Parkman, who cites the letter by its location in the British Museum.

I know a professor who's been through that box and not found it.

Said letter may simply have been mis-filed, but I'd really like to have it relocated and placed where it ought to be.

218 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:59:39pm
219 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:59:46pm

re: #210 Elydo

The government would be more present, but have less influence over the people as the people would have more power over the government.

We already have power over the government- it's called elections. The issue here is the msm trying it's damnedest to keep the electorate ignorant of shari'a, and I fail to see how your idea will assist in educating anyone on radical islam and it's system of law.

220 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 8:59:52pm
221 Charles  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:00:26pm

re: #213 Dianna

I'm not exactly in disagreement, but I do have a question; it's based on knowing people who went through the "universal draft" of the 1950's and early 1960's:

It seems to have been a cohesive experience, one that led to shared experiences and values across ethnic and income lines. Would that be an acceptable idea?

As phrased, that's very amorphous, but, with more detail, and if truly universal, would an 18-month service requirement be necessarily a bad thing?

I'm not in favor of a draft, and most of the current military leadership of the US agrees with me. They don't want conscription because they know that the quality of the military would decline drastically.

I'm not opposed to requiring service in return for privileges like government tuitions/loans/etc., however.

222 gymnast  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:01:45pm

Our American Republic stands upon a foundation of liberty for all and if one cares to look at the seal (the pyramid) on the back of a $1 dollar bill and translate the Latin, it states the opinion of the founders of this nation, "A new world order". The other seal, the eagle, has a ribbon in it's beak that says "from many, one" and it is that which makes us unique among nations in the world, and a far different people from each of the nations of Europe and most any other place.
There is but one class of people in these United States, Americans and those who wish to be Americans. Those who wish to exclude themselves do not need an exit visa.

223 Elydo  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:01:53pm

re: #212 Charles

The power of a government in the form of a Monarchy, where primary power rested with a single person, lesser power with his appointed vassals, was constrained by the alteration to a Republic, the size of the Government expanded, more people had a say in what the government could and could not do. How far can that principle be taken before you start getting diminishing returns, and are there any other ways of enacting the same principle without including some of the more bloated elements. It's generally thought that the ultimate form of government would be a true Democracy, where everyone had a vote on every issue and could educate themselves about the issue appropriately in order to cast their vote. If that will ever be possible, it won't be for a very long time. What elements of that idea can we enact now, and which should we, is an interesting question.

224 Dianna  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:01:58pm

re: #208 buzzsawmonkey

Happy thought - but...

I honestly think that the best way to deal with bureaucracy is to pit one department against another and then duck. It's a lot less exhausting than every other alternative.

225 mjazzguitar  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:02:24pm

re: #196 Elydo

The whole idea needs a lot more work, which I will spend the summer exploring, but so far I've had positive reactions to the people I've run it by. Replace stagnant bureaucracy with limited term required service, necessitates the streamlining of the vast majority of minor functions as low-level civil servants don't get the opportunity to use paper to entrench themselves in order to protect their jobs, the people who get the vote have not only chosen to accept the responsibility, thus leading to higher voter turnout and more value being attributed to it, but also they voting public is better informed, if not about the exact issues at hand then about the way the system works, which hopefully makes blindsiding a bit more difficult etc etc...

"Replace stagnant bureaucracy with limited term required service" What are you talking about? Putting state or government workers in some kind of...what? I don't understand any of this.

226 Syrah  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:02:30pm

re: #213 Dianna

I like Wolfie's prescription, #215, better then a universal draft.

I do understand your concern for something that could be described as a cohesive experience for all Americans.

There is no common narrative to our culture.

227 experiencedtraveller  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:02:49pm

re: #196 Elydo

The whole idea needs a lot more work, which I will spend the summer exploring, but so far I've had positive reactions to the people I've run it by. Replace stagnant bureaucracy with limited term required service, necessitates the streamlining of the vast majority of minor functions as low-level civil servants don't get the opportunity to use paper to entrench themselves in order to protect their jobs, the people who get the vote have not only chosen to accept the responsibility, thus leading to higher voter turnout and more value being attributed to it, but also they voting public is better informed, if not about the exact issues at hand then about the way the system works, which hopefully makes blindsiding a bit more difficult etc etc...

You propose a mandatory participation in government in order to fire a bunch of town clerks making $32k a year? I don't get it. One off the great freedoms of America is the freedom to ignore government as much as possible.

228 Syrah  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:04:01pm

re: #226 Syrah

PIMF! Meant #216

229 Elydo  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:04:55pm

re: #216 wolfie

Hmm. I'm not used to a State system, so I haven't considered it and the ramifications yet. Note I'm not talking about replacing the American system with this, this is just a thought exercise on Government structuring. I'm British, we currently have a Democratic Monarchy that is just working wonderfully after all...

/

230 RedWhiteAndJew  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:05:06pm

#227 experiencedtraveller

One off the great freedoms of America is the freedom to ignore government as much as possible.

Testify!

231 revobob  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:05:53pm

In response to the general staement from Charles that this country will never revert to the sort of behavior that lead to Japanese internment, I am not so convinced that is true. While I AM NOT IN FAVOR of such action, that behavior was the result of shock and fear bordering on terror. People had their view of the world and their place in it overturned violently within a space of hours or days, and the reactions were not rational. I am afraid that given how often posts here have correctly pointed out the ignorance of most people of the threat of extremism the possibility does exist that panic stricken people would demand that the government do something. (Long time lurker, slow typist)

232 Bacchus's daddy  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:06:33pm

re: #227 experiencedtraveller

You propose a mandatory participation in government in order to fire a bunch of town clerks making $32k a year? I don't get it. One off the great freedoms of America is the freedom to ignore government as much as possible.


If only it was a reciprocal freedom that included being ignored BY government, when not breaking reasonable laws. Great op-ed today in the WashPost by George Will, of some absurd extensions of McCain-Feingold. I have a generally favorable opinion of McCain; but campaign finance "reform", IMHO, was his most eggregious error.

233 gman  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:06:49pm

re: #175 Elydo

They have conscription in Europe but as far as my family members over there tell me, it doesn't make them have any more respect for the armed services. In fact, there are many who know the loopholes and exploit them to get out of serving.

Don't forget about the pride that one feels as a volunteer. Our service members have a higher level of morale and a stronger degree of professionalism because they have volunteered.

234 JHW  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:07:44pm

re: #217 Dianna

Dianna, I might have a source that speaks to that, it`s the on the same site I cited a few days ago when we were having this discussion, it`s from a site on the "Native Web" and also has useful links.

The documents provided here are among Amherst's letters and other papers microfilmed as part of the British Manuscript Project, 1941-1945, undertaken by the United States Library of Congress during World War II. The project was designed to preserve British historical documents from possible war damage. There are almost three hundred reels of microfilm on Amherst alone.

Excuse me if I mis-characterize anything, getting tired, must sleep soon.

235 Elydo  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:08:00pm

re: #225 mjazzguitar

Not American. We need nationality tags.

I'll work with it a lot more and see if I can phrase things better, but not right now. It's past five in the morning here. Plus I need to adapt anything I come up with for non-Aspergers thought processes. That alone will take a while.

236 Dianna  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:08:30pm

re: #221 Charles

Oh, I didn't quite phrase that properly, but your answer is more than satisfactory.

To clarify the misunderstanding - until and unless the military requests a draft, I would certainly oppose the notion. My idea was what amounts to national service - doing all the stuff no one really wants to do (thinking of trash pickup and really cleaning the streets and sidewalks), for miserable money, by young people - for a very fixed term. Essentially, no exceptions (though of course accommodation to physical or mental disability), but it's not terribly onerous, either.

It's not a fixed idea of mine. It's a concept thrown out for review.

237 mjazzguitar  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:09:01pm

re: #208 buzzsawmonkey

I think that the potential of replacing lifelong civil servants with national service personnel in rotation would both cut the cost of government and teach us how many government office functionaries we can do without.

What's to say these people are even qualified to do what you're saying. Not to mention what stops them from getting together to swing things favorable to the neighborhoods they came from, just like any 'good old boy'network? And the constant training and retraining is only going to add to the cost of government.

238 Charles  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:09:41pm

re: #220 ploome hineni

where did that come from?

I asked a serious question...sometimes the task before us overwhelms

You and Robert Spencer, and Wretchard and Bostom and Shlussel and
Dexter von Zile and Aaron and other bloggers are the righteous voices of the world

without you and a few dozen others we would be buried under the ignorance and smug arrogance of the msm and the useful idiots

I did not ask the question to accuse you of anything, I was hoping to get some reassurance

the amazing success of Obama and the celebration of the lothesome rev Wright is scary

I posted that the fascist-huggers have done more to discredit the anti-jihad movement than CAIR could ever do, and you asked, "so what is to be done?"

What is to be done is to continue educating people and exposing the agenda of the jihadists. What is not to be done is to rant about concentration camps and genocide and mass deportations.

239 JHW  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:10:12pm

re: #234 JHW

Sorry Dianna, I am getting tired, here`s the link.
Amherst and Smallpox

240 Elydo  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:10:57pm

re: #233 gman

It wouldn't be mandatory service. It would be voluntary, with the primary reward of getting a say in how your country is operated. Heinleins final form of the idea he presents in Starship Troopers. I'm wondering if it's feasible in any way.

241 Elydo  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:12:19pm

re: #239 JHW

Thanks for that on my part too. And as well, I have to sleep.

242 Charles  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:12:19pm

re: #240 Elydo

I'm wondering if it's feasible in any way.

No. Starship Troopers is a science fiction novel.

243 RedWhiteAndJew  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:12:22pm

I have long been against conscription. My view is that one excellent measure of a government's legitimacy is the willingness of the people to rise up to defend it; with the caveat that this axiom breaks down when the the regime in question virtually eroticises murder and suicide, such as islam.

244 Elydo  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:13:11pm

re: #242 Charles

There's plenty of science fiction that's now fact. Especially in the field I'm studying.

245 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:14:07pm
246 wolfie  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:14:08pm

re: #226 Syrah

"There is no common narrative in our culture." You are so right.
There used to be one, a positive one, and it was taught in our schools.
Today the left is increasingly imposing a new common narrative that is negative and destructive.
Big problem.

247 Dianna  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:14:40pm

re: #226 Syrah

Oh, that word!

I'm not in favor of a military draft (I must emphasize that). I can't imagine a less sensible idea.

This is an idea I've toyed with for a long time, because of things said by men who went through the era of universal military service - when (it must be admitted) a war was not in session - and felt that it introduced them to many people and things they would never otherwise have encountered. Suppose - and I merely throw it out for consideration, I am not wedded to the idea - we required that, upon graduation, high school grads did 18 months of national service.

It need not be military; think of all the tasks that need doing! but I'd pretty much like to see what other people think of a non-military national service option.

248 gman  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:14:59pm

re: #240 Elydo

It wouldn't be mandatory service. It would be voluntary, with the primary reward of getting a say in how your country is operated. Heinleins final form of the idea he presents in Starship Troopers. I'm wondering if it's feasible in any way.

but what about people who want to start up their own business after high school? They can't vote until they work for the government?

249 mjazzguitar  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:16:17pm

re: #210 Elydo


The idea is to diminish the separation between the people and the government,

What seperation exactly do you mean? I'm finding this hard to follow. It seems like you are speaking in vague generalities.

250 experiencedtraveller  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:17:03pm

re: #232 Bacchus's daddy

You may be right. Campaign finance reform is a big bag of worms and surely requires its own thread/study. As a capitalist and a republican I fear oligarchs just a little bit less than I fear communists. There is some wisdom in limiting political donations but it is waaay above my pay grade.

/boarding. Never quit the fight good lizards.

251 Elydo  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:17:18pm

re: #248 gman

Governmental service wouldn't be the only non-military option, there'd have to be some economic, or labour etc options as well. Anything basic that the country needs to keep running, with the higher tier services being provided by private enterprise.

252 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:17:26pm
253 Dar ul Harb  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:17:44pm

re: #200 RedWhiteAndJew

I honestly don't know what kind of inroads islam has made in Japan, but I suspect it's not much. Whether it is adopted Western culture following WWII, or their native ancient practices, the Japanese appear to have more self-respect than most Western nations, and that self-respect acts like white blood cells, fighting off infection of the body politic.

I single out the Japanese, because they had a Western template imposed upon them, and they accepted it and thereby flourished. I really wish more Americans and Europeans valued what they've been given as a birthright.

As for Japan, it's my impression that they remain an overwhelmingly monoethnic state, and though they readily assimilate cultural influences from all over the world (and interestingly, are having some popular cultural exports now like Iron Chef, karaoke, Pokemon, anime), those foreign cultural influences are given to mutating into uniquely Japanese forms, which anchors them in Japanese culture. By contrast, they do not consider foreigners who live in Japan, or even those who are not ethnic Japanese who actually born there, as Japanese. What you perceive as Japanese "self-respect" is perhaps better termed Japanese ethnic chauvinism.

254 mjazzguitar  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:17:52pm

re: #218 buzzsawmonkey

I will assume that was an exercise in levity.

Franchise means business? Some kind of business? No?

255 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:18:02pm

re: #236 Dianna

To clarify the misunderstanding - until and unless the military requests a draft, I would certainly oppose the notion. My idea was what amounts to national service - doing all the stuff no one really wants to do (thinking of trash pickup and really cleaning the streets and sidewalks), for miserable money, by young people - for a very fixed term. Essentially, no exceptions (though of course accommodation to physical or mental disability), but it's not terribly onerous, either.

It's not a fixed idea of mine. It's a concept thrown out for review.

Cleaning up the streets is usually done by either volunteers or people sentenced to community service, and I think it should stay that way. I think that if we want to increase civic awareness and pride we might want to start with education, since it's already sorely lacking. That in and of itself might go a long way.

256 RedWhiteAndJew  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:18:43pm

#244 Elydo

There's plenty of science fiction that's now fact. Especially in the field I'm studying.

Technology is wonderful, and within the bounds of the laws of physics, virtually infinitely mutable.

Not so human nature. When people with power make that mistake, millions die.

257 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:19:04pm
258 Elydo  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:19:05pm

re: #249 mjazzguitar

Apologies. It might seem cheap, but my mind does work a bit differently. Aspergers has that effect. Once I've hashed it all out, I'll write it up and throw it round people till it makes sense to untwisted minds, heh.

259 Charles  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:19:07pm

re: #251 Elydo

Governmental service wouldn't be the only non-military option, there'd have to be some economic, or labour etc options as well. Anything basic that the country needs to keep running, with the higher tier services being provided by private enterprise.

So you're talking about an underclass of forced manual laborers, overseen by large corporations and large government bureaucracies.

What could possibly go wrong with that?

260 Dianna  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:19:45pm

Forgive me, I must walk dogs and go to bed - 5:30 comes awfully early.

I know I've failed to reply to a lot of posts, and I apologize.

Goodnight, lizards!

261 Elydo  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:23:17pm

re: #253 Dar ul Harb

Yup. The JET program, ostensibly to have native English speakers go over and teach, is more typically regarded by it's alumni, with a slight cynicism, to have the more fundamental function of just showing Japanese schoolchildren that non-Japanese people exist.

I'm still considering it though.

re: #256 RedWhiteAndJew

Society can still change astonishingly rapidly though. And as regards technology, within a human lifespan ago, mankind could not fly. Now the ideas we have, aerospace engineering is what I'm studying, are incredible, let alone what's already been achieved. That never fails to awe me.

262 Syrah  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:23:58pm

re: #247 Dianna

Oh, that word!

I'm not in favor of a military draft (I must emphasize that). I can't imagine a less sensible idea.

I hear you.

I think that the problem is not just with that one word, but with another word, "compulsory."

Anything kind of non-military national service with a compulsory element would be viewed as a draft by another name.

I would like the nation to have something that gives it a common narrative, or even a common experience, I just don't think it could or should be done by coercive means.

263 RedWhiteAndJew  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:24:02pm
What you perceive as Japanese "self-respect" is perhaps better termed Japanese ethnic chauvinism.

Perhaps that is so, but I don't think this ethnic chauvinism is a necessary precondition for a constructive form of cultural chauvinism to exist.

264 mjazzguitar  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:24:06pm

re: #223 Elydo

The power of a government in the form of a Monarchy, where primary power rested with a single person, lesser power with his appointed vassals, was constrained by the alteration to a Republic, the size of the Government expanded, more people had a say in what the government could and could not do. How far can that principle be taken before you start getting diminishing returns, and are there any other ways of enacting the same principle without including some of the more bloated elements. It's generally thought that the ultimate form of government would be a true Democracy, where everyone had a vote on every issue and could educate themselves about the issue appropriately in order to cast their vote. If that will ever be possible, it won't be for a very long time. What elements of that idea can we enact now, and which should we, is an interesting question.

Who decides on what the bloated elements are?
And it isn't generally thought the ultimate form of government would be a true democracy because that would easily lead to mob rule.
That's why we have checks and balances. How do you know when everyone has educated themselves appropriately?

265 Elydo  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:24:33pm

re: #259 Charles

Not forced, voluntary in order to gain within the system. And on a time-limited basis.

266 Elydo  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:27:12pm

re: #264 mjazzguitar

Thus the 'ideal' classification. 'Ideals' are rarely ever practical or even possible in real life. They're extremes you construct in order to study the various elements of, in order to try and apply those disparate elements in order to achieve improvement.

267 Dar ul Harb  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:28:13pm

It's interesting to me whether a re-invigoration of the state militia system envisioned by the framers of the Constitution would be a useful approach.

(That is to say, a service organization designed and trained to handle emergencies in the states at times when a state's National Guard units are federalized and/or deployed.)

268 RedWhiteAndJew  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:28:17pm
Not forced, voluntary in order to gain within the system. And on a time-limited basis.

So forced is bad, but coerced is OK.

Also, what is a limited time basis? People joining the church of scientology's "Sea Org" sign a billion year contract. That's a limited time, right?

269 Buster Bunny  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:28:46pm

re: #265 Elydo

Not forced, voluntary in order to gain within the system. And on a time-limited basis.

The greatest thing ever quoted in the Mishna (Jewish Explanatory book on the Bible) was that the Pyramids started as a group effort. And gradually the group was whittled away until the jews were the only people left doing the job, without any rights.

It always starts small. But unless you recognise it for what it is .. it'll come back to bite you on the backside.

270 abolitionist  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:30:21pm

re: #269 Buster Bunny

Interesting. I did not know that.

271 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:30:52pm
272 Syrah  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:33:13pm

re: #265 Elydo

Not forced, voluntary in order to gain within the system. And on a time-limited basis.

We used to have a system that almost fits the bill that you are writing.

Up until the early progressive era, most minor clerical bureaucratic post were filled by political patronage. The winning political party would fill all of the local city, county and state positions with its people. As long as the party won at the polls, its people would keep their jobs. When they lost the election, there people would be swept out of office and replaced with people loyal and beholding to the other winning Party.

A good description of this in both its good and bad forms can be found in a little book called Plunkitt of Tammany Hall.

273 Elydo  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:34:47pm

re: #268 RedWhiteAndJew

Define coercion. Or rather, find me an example of purely altruistic behaviour in civilian society. Whilst there are some, they're the exceptions to the rule. Most of us act in such a way as to benefit ourselves as well as others. Often, we don't have much of a choice as to the wider details of how.

Plus, it's a well known fact that people place a greater value on something they have worked for. People also hate being forced into situations. Thus, give them a choice of working for something you want them to value or not, and make the option of working for it, which is more beneficial to the wider society, also benefit the individual.

274 Elydo  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:35:12pm

re: #269 Buster Bunny

I didn't know that either. Interesting.

275 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:35:38pm
276 RedWhiteAndJew  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:36:37pm
Society can still change astonishingly rapidly though. And as regards technology, within a human lifespan ago, mankind could not fly. Now the ideas we have, aerospace engineering is what I'm studying, are incredible, let alone what's already been achieved. That never fails to awe me.

I am pleased to chat with a future fellow engineer. I work in the field of avionics, myself.

Yes, societies can change, much like technology can change, both being creations of the human mind. However, just like an inverted airfoil, social changes at odds with human nature are doomed to bring about carnage.

The engineer of human nature has not disclosed His plans, and all attempts are reverse engineering have failed miserably.

277 Syrah  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:37:04pm

re: #275 buzzsawmonkey

Yes you did, with a much better description of it then mine.

278 mjazzguitar  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:38:29pm

re: #252 buzzsawmonkey

Vague generalities are the best kind; if they are specific, they're not generalities any more.

The trouble with vague generalities is anyone can say:
Let's stop poverty.
Let's stop gang violence.
Let's get everyone a job.
Without concrete proposals they are essentially nice sounding dreams.

279 Syrah  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:41:38pm

re: #278 mjazzguitar

The trouble with vague generalities is anyone can say:
Let's stop poverty.
Let's stop gang violence.
Let's get everyone a job.
Without concrete proposals they are essentially nice sounding dreams.

Elections have been won with slogans such as those.

Empty piffle, but dangerous all the same.

280 Aristogiton  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:42:41pm

re: #78 Charles

I've been doing what I think should be done for more than 6 years now.

And I'm very glad you, because if you didn't, I would miss a lot of these stories the MSM bury.

You promote awareness of a very real danger. You promote it responsibly and you reject bigotry and hate.

What you do is a service.

281 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:42:43pm
282 Daybrother  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:43:11pm
I posted that the fascist-huggers have done more to discredit the anti-jihad movement than CAIR could ever do, and you asked, "so what is to be done?"

What is to be done is to continue educating people and exposing the agenda of the jihadists. What is not to be done is to rant about concentration camps and genocide and mass deportations.


As you said up above, it will never happen in America regardless of what people imagine.
Continuing education and awareness of the World and our place in it was the basis for our Revolution and kept our Country functioning well untill very recently. The success of the West is based on the premise that the individual is not less important than the State. That is why you will never see a mass round-up of individuals simply based on their religion--it would be an abomination. I do think our cultural roots run deeper than we think. We did win the Cold War after alldespiteinternal opposition. The worse that might happen would be a bloodless civil war with Western and Southern States going it apart from the Union.
I have said it before: You have provided a great service Charles. You could have drifted off into the Southern Cal life, playing a gig or tour here and there and writing code. You chose to do something that will stand after you are gone. That is the reason I still come here. Thank you.

283 Elydo  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:43:41pm

re: #275 buzzsawmonkey

I'll be looking into that as well, heh.

re: #276 RedWhiteAndJew

I view society less as a construction of human minds as a by-product. Then, I have somewhat of a poor view of society in general given my experiences. I doubt you'd find many an aspie that has fond thoughts about it. However, the idea that a society can be constructed is one that has often been thought about, typically failed, drastically, when attempted, Communism being the best example of that, and often perverted due to ideological needs. I haven't ever come across one that's been attempted from the initial premise of building it around human behaviour, rather than trying to get humans to act a certain way in order to support the society. If the model was engineered to be beneficial to the population, whilst taking into account the illogical quirks and destructive motivations as much as possible, and yet still satisfying the individuals need for reward, might it not survive. And if not (as might be likely) why not?

284 Kulhwch  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:45:13pm

re: #24 Charles

It's kind of sad that I feel I have to post something like that first comment - but the idiots who think we need to embrace fascism are doing more to discredit the anti-jihad movement than CAIR could ever do.

Charles:

You're a man doing what he can.  No one should ask any more or less of anyone else.  In truth, I find your efforts almost superhuman at times, and your dedication and intensity speak loads for your character.

}:)     [You're doing good, soldier on!]

285 gman  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:45:22pm

re: #280 Aristogiton

And I'm very glad you, because if you didn't, I would miss a lot of these stories the MSM bury.

You promote awareness of a very real danger. You promote it responsibly and you reject bigotry and hate.

What you do is a service.

a voluntary service, I might add since we're on the subject.

286 RedWhiteAndJew  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:45:47pm
Define coercion.

Being required to "serve" in order to vote. Or being required to vote in order to "serve," for that matter. Poor voter turn out is lamented in the US every election. Occasionally, there is talk of requiring voting, with such talk getting the smack down it deserves, every time.

Or rather, find me an example of purely altruistic behaviour in civilian society. Whilst there are some, they're the exceptions to the rule. Most of us act in such a way as to benefit ourselves as well as others.

Human beings are selfish, by nature. For good or ill, there it is. This is why capitalism, for all its flaws, is the best economic system conceived to date, and communism is the worst.

Plus, it's a well known fact that people place a greater value on something they have worked for.

On the mean, I agree, when they freely chose to labor. People who donate their time to charity are enriched by it. People forced to do community service often resent it.

287 mjazzguitar  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:45:52pm

re: #279 Syrah

First time I heard the word piffle.

288 Dar ul Harb  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:46:05pm

re: #263 RedWhiteAndJew

I don't think this ethnic chauvinism is a necessary precondition for a constructive form of cultural chauvinism to exist.

Certainly not in the case of the United States, but the apparent danger in Europe is that people won't bother to maintain that distinction, or that people with other agendas will succeed in erasing the distinction, such that the defense of Western culture becomes considered per se racist, because the racists are the ones doing the most of the talking about it.

Is America going to end up uniquely situated to defend Europe again? I don't see how, exactly. And as it is, it seems we barely have the resolve necessary to defend ourselves!

289 stevieray  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:46:08pm

I don't think we need to resort to public service schemes in order to re-invigorate patriotism and faith in America. Just get the schools and media to stop poisoning the well, and it'll fix itself.

Oh, and stop trying to manage peoples lives from D.C. and their respect for government will rise.

290 RedWhiteAndJew  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:49:41pm
Is America going to end up uniquely situated to defend Europe again? I don't see how, exactly. And as it is, it seems we barely have the resolve necessary to defend ourselves!

Exactly. The term "flag-waver" has become derogatory. Nationalism has been reformulated into jingoism. A little chauvinism would emphatically not be a bad thing!

291 Elydo  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:49:46pm

re: #289 stevieray

That's kinda my point, from an American model. Currently, DC is the hub of the Federal Government. There is a separation between the wider American populace and the main political body. Wouldn't diluting that by running more people through the system at successively lower levels of government diminish that separation? Not limited to Federal government, State as well.

292 mjazzguitar  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:50:00pm

re: #283 Elydo
Are you familiar with B.F. Skinner?

293 sparrowlake  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:51:02pm

re: #238 Charles

What is to be done is to continue educating people and exposing the agenda of the jihadists. What is not to be done is to rant about concentration camps and genocide and mass deportations.

You are correct if by "rant about" you mean "advocate".
But there is IMO a big difference between on the one hand suggesting legal and constitutional measures to combat Islamofascism or expressing a fear that fascism may rear its ugly head in Europe, and on the other hand actually advocating completely unacceptable fascistic measures.
And yes, we need to be careful about our choice of words so as not to give the impression of advocating fascistic measures when we simply intend to express our natural and heartfelt concerns and frustrations with the current situation.
However IMO we would be doing a disservice to the anti-Islamofascist movement if we discuss matters on the basis that history cannot repeat itself. As a child of holocaust survivors I am acutely aware that the phrase "never again" is an expression of hope and determination rather than a foregone conclusion. And I personally have no problem with ranting about the possibility that the horrors of the Nazi concentration camps can and will be repeated unless we remain vigilant.
I hate all Nazis and Nazi sympathizers.

294 Syrah  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:51:22pm

re: #281 buzzsawmonkey

Wasn't M. T. Piffle one of the candidates in the current primary?

I think I heard something about him concerning waffles.

295 LeePro  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:51:41pm

re: #253 Dar ul Harb

Dar...
I've been waiting to catch you online at this time of night for a long time!

You're in Memphis?
Me, too. And there are others (here, near, and from here) who are trying to cook up (pun intended) a sort of "get together" at the Commissary for bar-b-q sometime.

You game? Email me!

296 Elydo  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:52:53pm

re: #292 mjazzguitar

Nope. Looking up...

Oh wait a minute, I might have been talking about him earlier today. My flatmate is studying psychology. And happens to be American amusingly enough. I think this might be who she was talking about. He was a bastard, if I remember, but advanced the field of human behavioural psychology incredibly.

297 gymnast  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:54:27pm

re: #292 mjazzguitar

Are you familiar with B.F. Skinner?

I was going to to ask him if he was familiar with ornithology, but since you were first, go ahead.

298 Elydo  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:56:16pm

re: #297 gymnast

Now THAT'S going to have to wait. I am off to sleep at long last. Next time you see me bring it up, or post something in the Science section of the spin-offs. I'll keep an eye out.

299 mean Gene  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:58:16pm

Europe isn't going to send a clear signal that it even wants or needs ''saving.''
The ruling elites will capitulate, thinking they've put themselves in the last place to be killed.
Most of the humblest young people will convert while in school.
There might be a few people who try to sound an alarm but they will be called names like "islamophobes,'' and hate mongers.
If any of them act out based on their beliefs they will become ''real'' criminals.
Islam will win and then the real fighting will begin:the fighting by muslims against other muslims for dominance.
Who collects all the jizya?
Who gets all the girls?
Who sits in judgement at the sharia courts?
There's where the real bloodletting will be...as it is in any muslim area of earth.
In America we might be agast but we won't do what Bill Clinton did in Bosnia and jump in to save the Muslims.
We won't jump in to save anyone.

300 mjazzguitar  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 9:59:19pm

re: #291 Elydo

That's kinda my point, from an American model. Currently, DC is the hub of the Federal Government. There is a separation between the wider American populace and the main political body. Wouldn't diluting that by running more people through the system at successively lower levels of government diminish that separation? Not limited to Federal government, State as well.

What do we do with the lobbies?

301 RedWhiteAndJew  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:00:46pm
I view society less as a construction of human minds as a by-product.

This just sounds like semantics. A by-product is still a product. But I don't want to get bogged down in verbal minutiae.

I haven't ever come across one that's been attempted from the initial premise of building it around human behaviour, rather than trying to get humans to act a certain way in order to support the society.

That is exactly my point. A functioning social structure arises from human conception running up against human nature, and acknowledging these limits. It is a blend of planning and pragmatic resignation. Religion steps in to provide motives for effective self-regulation. This can, of course, go retrograde, as in the case of the sensual obsessions of islam. Denial of those limits results in communism.

302 LEGION  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:01:07pm

Less talk more action- stop the creeps & their sharia!

303 mjazzguitar  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:01:19pm

re: #296 Elydo

Nope. Looking up...

Oh wait a minute, I might have been talking about him earlier today. My flatmate is studying psychology. And happens to be American amusingly enough. I think this might be who she was talking about. He was a bastard, if I remember, but advanced the field of human behavioural psychology incredibly.

I read an interview with him a long time ago and you seem to be speaking in a similar vein.

304 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:01:36pm
305 mjazzguitar  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:04:35pm

re: #301 RedWhiteAndJew

Semantics, yes. That's what I meant earlier about generalities, "running people through the system", etc.

306 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:07:10pm
307 mjazzguitar  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:08:04pm

re: #304 buzzsawmonkey

The notion that lobbyists are innately evil is ridiculous. Every interest in the US lobbies for its own interests. And why not?

So then,

Wouldn't diluting that by running more people through the system at successively lower levels of government diminish that separation?
308 solomonpanting  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:09:17pm

re: #292 mjazzguitar

Are you familiar with B.F. Skinner?

Now that rings a bell. I remember having to read Freedom and Dignity for a Political Science class but can't for the life of me remember what the book was about.

309 Promethea  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:09:41pm

re: #55 Dianna

A suggestion: in arguments, or when speaking to people, don't talk about "islam", talk about shari'a; keep the focus on a truly repugnant system that denies people equality before the law as individuals, but insists on the supremacy of the wealthy males of one religious group.

Even moonbats can see the problem.

Excellent point. Moonbats have their eyes and ears closed to the problem of Islam, but they may be open to the idea that shari'a is unfair.

310 RedWhiteAndJew  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:10:32pm

#308 solomonpanting


re: #292 mjazzguitar

Are you familiar with B.F. Skinner?

Now that rings a bell. (emphasis mine)

Now that's funny!

311 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:11:37pm
312 RedWhiteAndJew  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:11:43pm

A Pavlol, if you will.

313 sparrowlake  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:12:02pm

re: #306 ploome hineni

...this is what I am referring
/you cannot make this up!

Amazing how the program seems to be all about promoting Islam at both ends.

314 LEGION  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:13:45pm

re: #76 LoFlyer

So Ham and Swiss- on Rye bread? Mustard or mayo? Coffee- reg or decaff? Important questions Lizards must know!

315 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:13:59pm
316 solomonpanting  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:14:18pm

re: #310 RedWhiteAndJew

I remember the book having to do with some sort of behavior modification (right?) but nothing specific.

317 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:14:49pm
318 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:15:55pm
319 solomonpanting  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:16:03pm

re: #312 RedWhiteAndJew

A Pavlol, if you will.

Now that's even better!

re: #315 ploome hineni

Thanks.

320 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:17:39pm
321 solomonpanting  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:18:46pm

Beyond Freedom and Dignity

322 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:18:58pm
323 gymnast  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:19:21pm

re: #306 ploome hineni

...this is what I am referring

/you cannot make this up!

The State Department has a long history of fellow travelers and useful idiots looking out for other nations interests. The name Whittaker Chambers comes to mind for one. Of course that was long ago and the State Department is a different place now and much more multicultural what with selective diversity and all. Besides, with roll models like some of our former presidents, the State Department is being all that it can be.

324 sparrowlake  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:19:40pm

re: #299 mean Gene

Yours is just a worst case scenario.
It is not a foregone conclusion, is it?

325 RedWhiteAndJew  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:20:37pm

#316 solomonpanting

re: #310 RedWhiteAndJew

I remember the book having to do with some sort of behavior modification (right?) but nothing specific.

I'm afraid I've read none of his books, but as I recall, he basically saw humans, and pretty much all other living things, as meat robots.

326 LEGION  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:20:39pm

re: #74 RedWhiteAndJew

Yep, gangs gone wild in Chicago- gunfights galore- bodies and abandoned cars in the streets. Country is going to heck in a handbasket!

327 mjazzguitar  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:20:52pm

re: #311 buzzsawmonkey

I have no idea what you are referring to, or where your second quote comes from.

Lobbying is primarily directed at elected officials. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with it; it is a way of focusing concern over an issue at the people who can affect it.

If you are conflating that with the notion of replacing civil service personnel with national service personnel, you are mixing two entirely unrelated concepts.


Check out #300 again. i was wondering how lobbying fit into his scheme of things.

328 Dar ul Harb  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:22:53pm

re: #295 LeePro

Check your email.

329 RedWhiteAndJew  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:23:53pm

#326 LEGION

re: #74 RedWhiteAndJew

Yep, gangs gone wild in Chicago- gunfights galore- bodies and abandoned cars in the streets. Country is going to heck in a handbasket!

I'm sorry. I don't follow how what you wrote is a response to my #74. Would you kindly elaborate?

330 solomonpanting  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:25:00pm

re: #322 ploome hineni

Just dandy, thank you. Working and fixing up a home we recently moved to takes most all my time. I need a break, though. The central coast beckons.
How are you and yours?

331 nyc redneck  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:25:18pm

re: #299 mean Gene

try not to worry. europe is not going to reach the point of no return. the fools in power are few, tho they do hold power, the citizens vastly out number the savages in their midsts. at any moment they could turn on them, and they will if they feel sufficiently threatened. you are underestimating the survival instinct of human beings. you maybe right abt. one thing, the usa might not come to the aid of the jihadis who the europeans decide to chew up. and yes even bill clinton probably won't be calling for it.

332 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:25:46pm
333 mjazzguitar  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:27:21pm

re: #317 ploome hineni

It is freaky.

334 mjazzguitar  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:29:23pm

re: #325 RedWhiteAndJew

#316 solomonpanting

re: #310 RedWhiteAndJew

I remember the book having to do with some sort of behavior modification (right?) but nothing specific.

I'm afraid I've read none of his books, but as I recall, he basically saw humans, and pretty much all other living things, as meat robots.

It's been a long time, but as I recall, yes, he's basically about conditioning.

335 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:30:28pm
336 RedWhiteAndJew  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:30:34pm

Well, it's that time. Good night, all.

Don't not do anything I wouldn't decline avoiding doing.

337 mean Gene  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:32:38pm

re: #324 sparrowlake

It's what we've been watching happen...sort of in slow motion.
The pace will pick up as the population shifts towards islam.
Don't forget, Islam is NOT a race...it is a religion and a culture.
If you recall there were a few spousal beaters in Australia who considered converting to islam when they realized muslim wives there could not prosecute their abusers in Australia under the two sets of policing standards.
Put that on a larger scale and a lot of your own neighbors will take the course of least resistance.
Some of them - many of them - might be what you or I might term "Jack muslims" (like Mormons have Mormons-in-name-only who they call ''Jack Mormons") but how can you tell?
They will go through the motions, pray, seem to quit music, mixed sex parties, movies, pork and alcohol. But if they are secretly non-believers how would an observer ever know?
Kind of like with MOST Muslims these days.

338 Xango Annie  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:34:19pm

Late to this thread..but just wanted to say, Bruce Bawer is one of my favorite authors..along with Mark Steyn..his, While Europe Slept , is an absolute must read..and it is out in paperback..no excuse ,that it is too expensive...
I bought 6 of them and gave them to friends...3 of them libs..they could hardly believe what they were reading..they are still in shock...

339 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:36:58pm
340 mean Gene  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:38:49pm

re: #331 nyc redneck

try not to worry. europe is not going to reach the point of no return. the fools in power are few, tho they do hold power, the citizens vastly out number the savages in their midsts. at any moment they could turn on them, and they will if they feel sufficiently threatened. you are underestimating the survival instinct of human beings. you maybe right abt. one thing, the usa might not come to the aid of the jihadis who the europeans decide to chew up. and yes even bill clinton probably won't be calling for it.

Be real.
Europeans are, for the most part, not armed, for one thing.
50+ years of socialized nanny-statism has infantalized them beyond maybe a tantrum or two.
The Europeans who have already been threatened have left or made plans to leave.
I was mostly addressing the fact that there are very few places where people who don't wish to submit can run away to.
What's left after Europe and Asia and Africa all have fallen?
No one's runs to the Middle East unless it is to Israel.
All that's left is the USA.
Canada and Australia are falling slower, but falling nonetheless.

341 MigueldowninMexico  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:47:51pm

re: #340 mean Gene

Add this to your tally.

The world doesn't look nice right now :(

342 LEGION  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:48:35pm

#287 Jazzguitarist
e: #279 Syrah

First time I heard the word piffle.

Heh, send it into O'Reilly!

343 solomonpanting  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 10:49:28pm

re: #338 Xango Annie

along with Mark Steyn

He's due to face Canada's Anti-Islamic Dissing Court in June. Given his gift of wordsmithery and humor, I'd love to hear his ripping into the court.

344 LEGION  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 11:00:37pm

re: #329 RedWhiteAndJew

Elaborate? Sure- #74 said- Well, the police sit on their hands while the gangs murder, burn and threaten law-abiding people...and we are all in trouble because of it.

And I said what I said because it triggered an article I saw like this on violent outbreak of crime in Chicago... [Link: www.foxnews.com...]

345 winston06  Sun, Apr 27, 2008 11:55:47pm

re: #93 bikermailman

That's how Socialism combined with crappy PC kills western societies and islamists know it well.

346 MigueldowninMexico  Mon, Apr 28, 2008 12:34:31am

re: #345 winston06

That's how Socialism combined with crappy PC kills western societies and islamists know it well.

Stein, talking about that yesterday.

347 zionista  Mon, Apr 28, 2008 1:14:14am

The creeping shariah is not creeping, it is moving like wildfire.
A lot of info is posted on [Link: shariahfinancewatch.wordpress.com...] about this incidious way the Muslims and Jihadists are taking America and Europe by using, "the silent jihad" the buying of the stock indices, the buying of corporations, hedge funds, and Nasdaq. This is very scary and not enough attention is being paid to this problem. We need to lobby congress and the white house to stop it NOW

348 transferthem  Mon, Apr 28, 2008 1:54:22am

Every day, in every way, the west is losing the war to maintain civilisation a bit more.

Oh for a Churchillian leader who will take on islamonazism and destroy it. Destroy it and banish it from any form of civilised society.

I always hear of the 'moderate' muslims who aren't anti western, they don't pray for all Jews to die and they are opposed to jihadism. I just never see them on the street. I never hear from them. I believe they don't exist.

Yes, there are a few shining examples of muslims who are good, moderate and opposed to this madness.

But there were a few good Germans in 1939 and western appeasement left them to be slaughtered. Just as it is doing today.

One day, those who helped revive nazism, in a turban and waving mein koran, will be called to account. The media, the left, the antisemites. They will appear in the next Nuremburg trials for their crimes. If there is any western justice left to try them.

349 nadadhimmi  Mon, Apr 28, 2008 5:43:42am

re: #1 Charles

And no, this doesn't mean we need to start building concentration camps.

That's correct. After all, TRUE survival lies in defeat doesn't it?. Just ask the French. It's always worked pretty well for them. " What's the matter, you guys don't have sarcasm anymore? " Quote Simon Phoenix in " Demolition Man ".

350 Pyrocles  Mon, Apr 28, 2008 6:49:58am

My blood is boiling after reading this.

"We must prostrate ourselves before our superior socially-sensitive and environmentally-responsible overlords, inshallah" - /lefty

351 gman  Mon, Apr 28, 2008 7:24:54am

re: #349 nadadhimmi

That's correct. After all, TRUE survival lies in defeat doesn't it?. Just ask the French. It's always worked pretty well for them. " What's the matter, you guys don't have sarcasm anymore? " Quote Simon Phoenix in " Demolition Man ".

TRUE survival for the West does not mean jumping to extremes and forgoing the freedoms we have fought for in the past and continue to fight for today.

352 Alibaba  Mon, Apr 28, 2008 7:48:26am

Their other ally is the Democratic party which seeks the votes of these wackos and some elements within the GOP which refuse to admit that radical Islamo and Islamists are the problem. We keep hearing the words "moderate Moslems" - where are they?re: #7 Sharmuta

353 Alibaba  Mon, Apr 28, 2008 7:50:42am

re: #348 transferthem
"if there is any Western justice left" - and there may not be at this rate. We have also had the splendid example of the Archbishop of Canterbury calling for understanding of sharia law while blasting Israel - the only true democracy in the Middle East. This man and his ilk are DOLTS.

354 alegrias  Mon, Apr 28, 2008 8:31:52am

Salman Rushdie despite being fatwa'd since 1988, was clearly on C-SPAN video attending & wandering around freely Saturday night's Washington Correspondents Dinner.

Salman Rushdie attended Christopher Hitchen's party afterwards, according to today's article in Politico.com by Michael Calderone.

Two great lizardly thinkers right here in DC! Charles Johnson should have been up on the dais with our President & VP & Craig Ferguson the fearless comic.

355 SevoGuy  Mon, Apr 28, 2008 8:41:52am

This is an excellent article. I found it on [Link: www.realclearpolitics...] also. RCP is actually mainstream and it's great that more Americans are becoming aware of the islamic issues occurring around this very small world of ours.

I learned everything about islam I needed to know on September 11, 2001.

Any moderate muslims around? I've not met any yet.

356 nyc redneck  Mon, Apr 28, 2008 8:47:53am

re: #340 mean Gene

Be real.
Europeans are, for the most part, not armed, for one thing.
50+ years of socialized nanny-statism has infantalized them beyond maybe a tantrum or two.
The Europeans who have already been threatened have left or made plans to leave.
I was mostly addressing the fact that there are very few places where people who don't wish to submit can run away to.
What's left after Europe and Asia and Africa all have fallen?
No one's runs to the Middle East unless it is to Israel.
All that's left is the USA.
Canada and Australia are falling slower, but falling nonetheless.

i disagree. tho it does seem bleak in several european countries, i refuse to believe that the freedom vs sharia game is over. i don't want to underestimate the resilience of human beings, who are also animals. the tantrums they begin to have could easily reach a flash point. and as i said the indigenous populations vastly out number the interlopers. ( ie the moslem pop. in england is abt. 2%) i'm imagining torches and pitch forks when the oppression escalates , a mob is an entity w/ a mind of it own and the people, who will comprise, it are silently seething now. most of the europeans who have already jumped ship are not the type who would fight anyway. the people still there, choose to be or have to be. these are the very ones who in the past have risen up. i think they will do it again. i think they will save themselves in the end.

357 Mammamia[deleted]  Mon, Apr 28, 2008 11:06:02am
358 Mammamia[deleted]  Mon, Apr 28, 2008 11:10:14am
359 Mammamia[deleted]  Mon, Apr 28, 2008 11:10:53am
360 gman  Mon, Apr 28, 2008 11:31:28am

re: #359 Mammamia

Yuck, yuck, and more yuck. You're just like El Ingles. You write several pages when all you really have to say could fit in one sentence.

361 TalkinKamel  Mon, Apr 28, 2008 11:45:12am

re: #359 Mammamia

Hone, just who do you think trying to jive who, here?

I don't know whatever you're full of, but it sure ain't "kumbayah." Get lost.

362 TalkinKamel  Mon, Apr 28, 2008 11:55:44am

Mannamia, if you want to go goose stestepping off with GoV, Vlaams Belang and all the rest of them, that's your problem. If you dream hopefully of war and genocide, that's your sickness.

Our problems with political correctness, with the Islamic world, with kowtowing to thugs like Arafat, have been going on for decades (despite some wiser heads warning that this was a bad idea). I don't recall any European groups speaking out about this, back then, or denouncing political correctness; it was all, "Yea, PLO, boo, Israel!" After 9/11, it was all "America has brought this on herself by her evil policies! She needs to be more flexible in her Middle-Eastern policies!" (Translation: she needs to dump those (*(*&^%% Jews!") As for Umberto Bossi, Ken Livingston, and all the other Euros who are kowtowing to Islam---America didn't force Europeans to elect them, year after year. If the Euros are really so scared for their future, why did they keep voting them into office, and supporting them, year after year? Okay, now they've decided they don't want them around, anymore. . . but they can't think of any other way to get rid of them, other than killing lots of Moslems? How stupid is that? Carter's a pain in the ass, but at least he's not president anymore.

These guys have no real solution. They're just offering us a different tyranny from Islam. No thanks.

363 Mammamia  Mon, Apr 28, 2008 11:57:15am

re: #360 gman

Yuck, yuck, and more yuck. You're just like El Ingles. You write several pages when all you really have to say could fit in one sentence.

Gman, please write that sentence for me. What is it that you think I want to say.

364 Mammamia  Mon, Apr 28, 2008 11:59:42am

Dear TalkingKamel,

Umberto Bossi kowtowing to Islam... You mean the party of Calderoli who unleashed pigs where a mosque was supposed to be built?

Friend, you don't know what you're taking about.

365 TalkinKamel  Mon, Apr 28, 2008 12:01:53pm

#363 Mammamia

Write your own sentences, mumsy.

Can't speak for gman, but it sounds to me like you're saying that you'd like to see a great big war, with lots of people getting killed, and you think that just reporting, and exposing what's going on, isn't enough; you'd like to see some real, bone-cracking, goose-stepping violence. To each their own. (By the way; what is it you're doing that's so much more gutsy and useful than what Charles, and many other bloggers are doing?)

You also have a rather sick way of fantasizing about horrible things happening to Americans, people in Topeka Kansas writhing and moaning to death, all that fun stuff. After 9/11, we all have to consider such things. . . but you're not just considering, you're reveling in it. Ugh!

366 TalkinKamel  Mon, Apr 28, 2008 12:02:34pm

re: #364 Mammamia

You're the one who brought him, babe, not me. If you want to make clear what's going on with him, be clear.

367 TalkinKamel  Mon, Apr 28, 2008 12:05:31pm

re: #364 Mammamia

My point remains. If you don't like what your politicians are doing in Europe, why don't you do something about them? And if you can't do anything about them, or the mess your societies are in over there, what makes you think you'll be able to stand up to Islam? And if your only choice is, say, between a nationalist tyranny and an Islamic tyranny, don't you see that you've already lost?

368 Mammamia[deleted]  Mon, Apr 28, 2008 12:15:59pm
369 gman  Mon, Apr 28, 2008 12:23:32pm

re: #363 Mammamia

Gman, please write that sentence for me. What is it that you think I want to say.


You asked for it and you get it. I won't waste your time with 3 pages of gobbledy gook.

Here's your sentence

You advocate genocide as a viable option to the problem of Islamic influence in the West.

370 Charles  Mon, Apr 28, 2008 12:57:38pm

Disgusting. The fascist sympathizers and genocide spouters always seem to show up in dead threads two days later.

This one will not be back.


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