Science -- the death cult!

Ahh science - if only there were some way to clear up my dry, red eyes.

Speaking of nakbas... and awaaayyy we go!

Charles, on my computer the curly quotes and curly apostrophes in your post are showing up as question marks. (Or it is just weird blank spaces doing that?) Anyway, it looks weird.

Yeah, we saw how those apes in 2001 learned to use bones to kill. Science! Evolution!
/sarc

On the other hand, without science and technology, we wouldn't be happy naked savages, we'd be wild animal food.

looks like someone won too much of ben steins money

the last time any of my relatives saw scientists telling them what to do they were telling them to go to the showers to get gassed

The last time a scientist told my relatives what to do, he was saving millions of people with innoculations.

BAH! What has science ever given us?

What is the deal with the backlash against science and technology. Very odd.

Social Darwinism is a hypothesis that competition among all individuals, groups, nations or ideas drives social evolution in human societies. The term is an extension of Charles Darwin's theory of natural selection, where competition between individual organisms drives biological evolutionary change (speciation) through the survival of the fittest.

The term was popularized in 1944 by the American historian Richard Hofstadter, and has generally been used by critics rather than advocates of what the term is supposed to represent.[1]

While the term has been applied to the claim that Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection can be used to understand the social endurance of a nation or country, social Darwinism commonly refers to ideas that predate Darwin's publication of On the Origin of Species. Others whose ideas are given the label include the 18th century clergyman Thomas Malthus, and Darwin's cousin Francis Galton who founded eugenics towards the end of the 19th century.

Some claim that it supports racism on the lines set out by Arthur de Gobineau before Darwin published his theories, which directly contradict Darwin's own work. This classification of social Darwinism constitutes part of the reaction against the Nazi regime and the Holocaust.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

re: #4 zombie

Charles, on my computer the curly quotes and curly apostrophes in
your post are showing up as question marks. (Or it is just weird blank
spaces doing that?) Anyway, it looks weird.

That's science for you.

Just in case.....
you never know..http://www.nitro-pak.com/

the last time any of my relatives saw scientists telling them what to do they were telling them to go to the showers to get gassed

Absolutely appalling.

Uh, Ben? Those guys ordering your relatives into the gas chambers? They weren't scientists.

And by the way, have any of your relatives more recently, say, used modern medicine to prolong their lives?

I'm wondering if Stein isn't suffering from a micro-brain anyeurism or something.

Charles -- weird character problem is now solved. Thanks!

Did you use the dreaded SCIENCE to fix the html?

After seeing this, why is it that I can see Laura Petrie saying, "Oh... Ben..."

Common on now Ben!

Science is not to blame... its the misuse of science that is to blame.

Ha ha ha ha! Look, there's a dwarf in the post below! Ha ha ha ha!

Sorry Ben, science is amoral. It is how people choose to use it that makes it moral or immoral.

kinda puts into question the "intelligent" part of "intelligent design"..... %-)

"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe. "

Zappa

re: #8 song_and_dance_man

Crouch is a gospel merchant.

Now where did I leave my whip of cords?

science leads you to killing people

Woah. That doesn't sound right.

Isn't it science that has led us to this whole global warming hysteria?

Because, we all know that scientists have no biases.

re: #12 Ben Hur

Darwin himself HATED the term "Social Darwinism" which others concocted.

Social Darwinism is a political philosophy. It has nothing to do with science or evolution.

The Nazi "doctors" who worked at the death camps were not scientists either. There were evil mass murderers who had gotten useless degrees from racist universities in Germany.

re: #23 BabbaZee

Babba! I think it's in the Ganjihad Great Hall next to the bong.

Ulululuulluululuulluululuulluululuulluululuullu!

Maybe Stein should have said that this is what man does with science learned? The fact of the matter is that brutal things are done in the name of science. If science is amoral then it requires an outside influence to bring morality into the use of science findings and limitation of what is done in the name of science. If science is amoral and the men/women practicing it give up the concept of a moral arbitrator such as God that leaves only man's opinions to guide science. Man's main tendency is towards selfish desires, ergo an evil use of science or evil actions taken in the name of science.

re: #21 song_and_dance_man

I'm opposed to Darwinism

And I'm opposed to gravity!

re: #25 right wing zephyr

Woah. That doesn't sound right.

true..... it sounds "Wright".

"Love of God and compassion and empathy leads you to a very glorious place, and science leads you to killing people."

I agree with the first part. The second part is very unscientific.

re: #30 Occasional Reader

ancient bumper sticker There is no gravity. The earth sucks

re: #20 jcm

Sorry Ben, science is amoral. It is how people choose to use it that makes it moral or immoral.

THANK YOU for pointing out what needed to said.

Sometimes the obvious needs to be repeated.

Evolve!

I am Ben.

He is Ben Stein!

It's the April 22 show on this page:

[Link: tbn.org...]

re: #4 zombie

Try a different font, IE7 looks fine on my comp, but when I use firefox a lot of the fonts show a (?).

Thats my guess.

The term "Darwinism" is not objective terminology, it's polemical.

Is it only me, or does anybody else here get the feeling that Stein is about to abandon Judaism? I just have this weird premonition.

re: #27 zombie

The Nazi "doctors" who worked at the death camps were not scientists either. There were evil mass murderers who had gotten useless degrees from racist universities in Germany.

Much like the various "Social Justice" professors and degrees available today. They have no real scholarly merit but are simply tools to push an agenda. I'm sure many of their devotees would love to be running re-education camps. No science involved.

Sad to see him spouting hyperbole like that. True, taken to extremes like the Nazi (and Planned Parenthood) eugenics or the communist 'new man', science can and has been used to horrible ends but to write it off like that is just ignorant.
As is appearing on that boob Crouch's circus of idiocy.

re: #36 Ben Hur

I am Ben.

He is Ben Stein!

Tell that to Killgore Bundy!

re: #28 BulgarWheat

Riff Raff, what would I do without ye?

re: #26 DesertSage

Isn't it science that has led us to this whole global warming hysteria?

Because, we all know that scientists have no biases.

Nope, it was politicians and communist activists that led us to global warming hysteria, science will get us out of it. Science is pretty good at fixing its mistakes. You know the search for truth and all that jazz.

I think Ben Stein should stick to Patriotism. That's all I got to say.

Hey this may come in handy on this thread

This swirling motion has begun, and I can sense that this thread is already starting to circle the drain.

For everyone's sake, I will now step aside and let the fireworks commence with my adding any gunpowder to the conflagration!

Science is amoral....scientists are not.

re: #49 zombie

This swirling motion has begun, and I can sense that this thread is already starting to circle the drain.

For everyone's sake, I will now step aside and let the fireworks commence with my adding any gunpowder to the conflagration!

I plan to keep my cool. These threads can spin way out of control.

I don't see this thread going to 1700.

re: #44 BabbaZee

We're all devolved now............

Well, while i continue to believe that evolution had a causal relation to the holocaust (and especially the t-4 program), saying all science leads to murder is a tad much.

And before everyone howls again over me saying that, i am not saying evolution is to blame for the holocaust. you can cause a thing without being to blame. For instance, Sharon visited the wailing wall, and the second intefada broke out. There is some debate whether his visit was the cause, but even if it was, he is not blameworthy. he was merely visiting the holy site of his faith, and if someone else goes homicidal over it, its their moral failing, not his. Likewise, Lincoln sought election in 1860 knowing it might cause a civil war, and it did indeed cause one. But Lincoln would and indeed did say that this is not blameworthy conduct--the majority should be able to vote for whomever it wants as president and not spark a rebellion. The only limitation is if the president in question was bound and determined to violate the constitution--and that doesn't fit the Lincoln scenario.

Maybe in truth Stein just spoke a little too broadly, as people sometiems do off the cuff. i say, give him a chance to come back from the ledge. but if that's what he means, ben's become an idiotarian.

re: #49 zombie

This swirling motion has begun

Actually, I think everyone's being pretty civil.

So far.

Science is good, people are bad. Scientists are people. Therefor, science is bad.

re: #26 DesertSage

No, it's politics. When scientists get involved in politics they stop doing science.

In small defense, Stein says it is his opinion. He is entitled to it.
I will still buy Visine.

re: #27 zombie

Darwin himself HATED the term "Social Darwinism" which others concocted.

Social Darwinism is a political philosophy. It has nothing to do with science or evolution.

The Nazi "doctors" who worked at the death camps were not scientists either. There were evil mass murderers who had gotten useless degrees from racist universities in Germany.

Great point.

re: #46 The_Vig

Nope, it was politicians and communist activists that led us to global warming hysteria, science will get us out of it. Science is pretty good at fixing its mistakes. You know the search for truth and all that jazz.

And yet we still have scientists...with political biases...who are promoting Man Made Global Warming as a fact. Even before all the facts are in.

Everyone .....fight in Shakespearean!

Otherwise this will read like all the other threads....

Ben has set himself adrift.

Come back, Ben...we need more "Clear Eyes" commercials...

Ben! Ben!

And by the way, if you watch the show you'll see that Stein very explicitly says that "Darwinism" was the main cause of the Third Reich.

Question:

What religion is Ben Stein?

Did he convert?

I think Ben has some genuine points that are quite realistic and valid.
If one interprets his movie to be a blatant attack on evolution then I am not surprised that he would be attacked by that element.
To deny that science has at times gone off the deep end and place "intellectual accomplishment" in a glorified status is total nonsense.
The scientific community has been the greatest opponents to many of the great discoveries of science. Pasteur is just one bold example.
When mankind takes itself too seriously and feels man himself has all the answers then you have the makings of a Holocaust.

re: #61 BabbaZee

can I use pig latin instead?

re: #58 rawmuse

lol

re: #54 A.W.

Well, while i continue to believe that evolution had a causal relation to the holocaust (and especially the t-4 program), saying all science leads to murder is a tad much.

And before everyone howls again over me saying that, i am not saying evolution is to blame for the holocaust. you can cause a thing without being to blame. For instance, Sharon visited the wailing wall, and the second intefada broke out. There is some debate whether his visit was the cause, but even if it was, he is not blameworthy. he was merely visiting the holy site of his faith, and if someone else goes homicidal over it, its their moral failing, not his. Likewise, Lincoln sought election in 1860 knowing it might cause a civil war, and it did indeed cause one. But Lincoln would and indeed did say that this is not blameworthy conduct--the majority should be able to vote for whomever it wants as president and not spark a rebellion. The only limitation is if the president in question was bound and determined to violate the constitution--and that doesn't fit the Lincoln scenario.

Maybe in truth Stein just spoke a little too broadly, as people sometiems do off the cuff. i say, give him a chance to come back from the ledge. but if that's what he means, ben's become an idiotarian.

Run!

re: #58 rawmuse

and watch ferris bueller's day off

re: #66 BulgarWheat

NO!
Thou gleeking whoreson mumble-news!

Nakba nakba!

Who's there?

Genomes!

Genomes who?

Gee, gnomes can't be cured, but midgets can? Science!

re: #61 BabbaZee

Thou art the rudeliest welcome to this world.

re: #60 DesertSage

Scientists are still human. They can still be wrong.

re: #70 BabbaZee

heheheh, ya freakin' killin' me heaaah!

A shame. I hate to hear him say that. It has the feel of 'The Earth is Flat."

re: #61 BabbaZee

Everyone .....fight in Shakespearean!

Otherwise this will read like all the other threads....

Et tu,Babba?

re: #70 BabbaZee

Thou cockered pox-marked malcontent!

It's called the "Theory" of Evolution for a reason!

Just kidding!

Kind of.

re: #64 Ben Hur

Question:

What religion is Ben Stein?

Did he convert?

Ben, that's what I'm wondering. I feel like something else is up. I could be wrong.

re: #71 Occasional Reader

Nakba nakba!

Who's there?

Genomes!

Genomes who?

Gee, gnomes can't be cured, but midgets can? Science!

re: #61 BabbaZee

Everyone .....fight in Shakespearean!

I got:
Idol of idiot-worshippers!
Did they have Elizabethan Idol back then?

[Thou art] a fusty nut with no kernel!

re: #61 BabbaZee

Everyone .....fight in Shakespearean!

Otherwise this will read like all the other threads....

Have your way Thou gleeking pottle-deep pigeon-egg!

re: #72 right wing zephyr

Thou currish ill-nurtured bum-bailey!

I guess I was just lucky:
She Blinded Me with Science

re: #60 DesertSage

And yet we still have scientists...with political biases...who are promoting Man Made Global Warming as a fact. Even before all the facts are in.

Sage, what's the fire situation? Is it out?

But by far the best line from the Derbyshire post is where he quotes Voltaire:

Nor can I embark in search of the savages of Canada

HA! Hear that, Kenneth and WriterMom? Voltaire had your number, hosers!

Your means are very slender, and your waste is great.

/Henry IV

re: #70 BabbaZee

NO!
Thou gleeking whoreson mumble-news!

Thou fusty common-kissing puttock!

[Thou] appeareth nothing to me but a foul and pestilent congregation of vapours.

re: #63 Charles

And by the way, if you watch the show you'll see that Stein very explicitly says that "Darwinism" was the main cause of the Third Reich.

I'm pointing this out because a lot of people tried to defend Stein in the last thread by claiming he wasn't saying this in the film.

re: #89 ploome hineni

Wow!

re: #85 BabbaZee

I would not say such things if I were you! Thou poisonous bunch-back'd toad!

re: #63 Charles

Charles, we here have evolved past whether Ben Stein is right or wrong about the Darwinism/Nazi thing.
I believe that he's wrong, just like most intelligent people.

But the bigger question still remains...did a higher power create the conditions needed for life to begin in the first place?

re: #91 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I cast thee out, thou infectious rampallian wagtail!

re: #61 BabbaZee

Everyone .....fight in Shakespearean!

Otherwise this will read like all the other threads....

Oh Romeo, Romeo. Thou forgoteth the beer & pizza, thou dick head

Canst thou believe thy living is a life, so stinkingly depending? Go mend, go mend.

I liked Derbyshire's take on this:

[Link: article.nationalreview.com...]

You know... I have to say this:

I don't much agree with the idea of Ben Stein that Evolution is at fault for the Holocaust, though I don't know how much of that intent has been introduced by people who hate the idea of ID or creationism.

However, this is kind of a low blow:

It’s a pity Crouch didn’t invite the Rev. Jeremiah Wright into the studio for a three-way conversation. It would have elevated the tone.

Comparing Stein to an rabidly racist anti-american is just not appropriate.

re: #46 The_Vig

Nope, it was politicians and communist activists that led us to global warming hysteria, science will get us out of it. Science is pretty good at fixing its mistakes. You know the search for truth and all that jazz.

In the modern world, everyone wants to claim their agenda is sanctioned by "science." But as you say, in the long run, honest science will make a mockery of those who abuse its name.
We are right to be sceptical of anyone brandishing "science" in a war of ideas.
The way to fight this is with critical reason, common sense, and ..........science.

Two houses, both of honor and esteem, in fair Verona...

Out of these two great nations, a pair of star-crossed lovers...

One, the son and heir of Faith...the other, the daughter of Reason...

Hey, lizards, we all know how this storry ends, right?

Everyone dies and no one learns anything...kind of like Democrat administrations and foreign policy (but that is another thread...)

re: #95 right wing zephyr

Bah Humbuggery, Thou art most gleeksome vexation.
I am no longer a toad, I have evolved!

re: #98 opnion

..........and the cleaning too!

rotflao!

re: #98 opnion

You win the thread

re: #97 BabbaZee

I cast thee out, thou infectious rampallian wagtail!

Would that thou were clean enough to spit on!

re: #87 Ward Cleaver

Sage, what's the fire situation? Is it out?

Yeah, it's pretty much all over. We're safe :')

re: #96 DesertSage

Charles, we here have evolved past whether Ben Stein is right or wrong about the Darwinism/Nazi thing.
I believe that he's wrong, just like most intelligent people.

But the bigger question still remains...did a higher power create the conditions needed for life to begin in the first place?

Have fun with that one.

I nominate that as a topic for a new thread on a different forum.

the last time any of my relatives saw scientists telling them what to do they were telling them to go to the showers to get gassed

Maybe he meant social scientists.

Um.......I got one!

Do you thumb your nose at me?

come on, give him a break
anyone that has this person on his TV show
is not all bad

Science and engineering, saving lives.

re: #112 Ben Hur

Um.......I got one!

Do you thumb your nose at me?

No sir,
I do thumb my nose,
but not at thee!

science leads you to killing people.

Gotta disagree, of course; science is a way of finding out about the world reliably.
Now, believing "science!" or nature have anything to teach about morality... yeah, that is scary and leads to eugenics and can be used to reinforce belief in "superior people."

re: #104 BabbaZee

lol oh fragile leathern-jerkin, crystal-button, knot-pated, agatering, puke-stocking, caddis-garter, smooth-tongue, Spanish pouch!

re: #77 right wing zephyr

Thou cockered pox-marked malcontent!

Hey without the pox that one is true
lol

re: #108 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

That's one of my favorites!

116 nikis-knight 5/01/08 2:02:37 pm reply quote report 0

"science leads you to killing people."
Gotta disagree

I hope you're right.

Fie,fie on all tired jades,on all mad Masters and all mad ways!

re: #60 DesertSage

And yet we still have scientists...with political biases...who are promoting Man Made Global Warming as a fact. Even before all the facts are in.

I liked this post:

re: #50 Mekan

Science is amoral....scientists are not.

re: #117 right wing zephyr

caddis-garter, smooth-tongue, Spanish pouch!

That actually sounds pretty sexy. Makes me think of Penelope Cruz in lingerie.

If he means that invoking the authority of "science," divorced from accountable theology, a.k.a. "fig leaf science," leads one to completely inhuman acts then, well, I'm afraid history bears him out.

Seems to me Stein was talking about science in the context of his relatives' experience. I think people are underestimating his intelligence, he isn't anti-science.

Time for the little bird in the clock:
"cuck-oo, cuck-oo, cuck-oo..."

re: #123 Occasional Reader

only you!

wellllll Ben (stein not Hur). there ya go, driftin' off into the lunatic fringe.....

/shakes head.

re: #61 BabbaZee

Everyone .....fight in Shakespearean!

Otherwise this will read like all the other threads....

"[Thine] horrid image doth unfix my hair."

Not you Babba, just one I saw on there that just about sent me to the floor laughing.

re: #61 BabbaZee

Everyone .....fight in Shakespearean!

Otherwise this will read like all the other threads....

Thine comments always puteth a smile onto my face!

re: #123 Occasional Reader

That actually sounds pretty sexy. Makes me think of Penelope Cruz in lingerie.

Glad I could help. Now careful where you go tonight. You might run into some science. buggety boo!

re: #62 brainwizard73

Ben has set himself adrift.

Come back, Ben...we need more "Clear Eyes" commercials...

Ben! Ben!

Somebody please give him some "Clear Brain" drops.

re: #111 solomonpanting

those weren't scientists, they were ideological fanatics.

re: #128 BabbaZee

only you!

Full disclore: I'm usually thinking of Penelope Cruz in lingerie

re: #114 Ojoe

Science and engineering, saving lives.

Helo's don't fly...
They vibrate so badly the earth rejects them.
;')

re: #110 right wing zephyr

Have fun with that one.

I nominate that as a topic for a new thread on a different forum.

That has always been my question. Once life began, in the primordial soup, evolution took over from there. At least that's what I believe.

But it's still an open question whether a higher power created the primordial soup.

_{...or Campbells Soup for that matter}

re: #135 Occasional Reader

Full disclore: I'm usually thinking of Penelope Cruz in lingerie

You don't need to cross dress in order to think of Penelope Cruz, but whatever works for you.

Is it safe to say the science of eugenics was manipulated by Hitler to kill non-master race members? The science of agw is killing people.

re: #138 LanceKates

You don't need to cross dress in order to think of Penelope Cruz

Don't knock it 'till you've tried it.

Am I the only one who has a problem with comparing Ben Stein to Rev. Wright?

re: #141 LanceKates

No, I see your point.

science leads you to killing people.

Ben immediately corrected himself "Errr... Wait. Did science create this television thingy I'm being broadcast on?"

"Science leads to killing people" is so utterly simplistic and ...silly! Embarrassing.

I guess we all better stop going to the hospital for treatment when we get sick. Science kills! We might get shoved into the incinerator. eeeeek.

re: #141 LanceKates

I still have a freezer full of lizards tails from last time, and there's no way I'm going to be able to grill all of them up this summer.

just being efficient.

re: #126 Globular Cluster

Seems to me Stein was talking about science in the context of his relatives' experience. I think people are underestimating his intelligence, he isn't anti-science.

If you watch the whole interview on the page I linked above at TBN, it's impossible to defend this claim. I'm as surprised as anyone to discover that Stein is very anti-science, and I'm very disappointed.

re: #141 LanceKates

Am I the only one who has a problem with comparing Ben Stein to Rev. Wright?

No,
One stupid statement, doesn't equal a career of vitriol.

re: #136 jcm

Helo's don't fly...
They vibrate so badly the earth rejects them.
;')

LOL.

Your right they don’t fly, their rotors do and the rest just gets dragged along for the ride.

Science!

re: #141 LanceKates

Am I the only one who has a problem with comparing Ben Stein to Rev. Wright?

No, Thou impertinent hedge-born apple-john!

/gotta get one more in

re: #149 vxbush

No, Thou impertinent hedge-born apple-john!

/gotta get one more in

I was born in a barn, not on a hedge.

at least, what's what my mother kept telling me as a kid.

or was she asking?

"LANCE?! What the hell? Were you born in a barn?!"

Yeah, I think that was asking. That confuses me though... I mean.. wasn't she there?

re: #148 DownRightMeanAmerican

LOL.

Your right they don’t fly, their rotors do and the rest just gets dragged along for the ride.

Science!

Helicopter, a loose collection of parts flying in formation.

re: #134 Kenneth

those weren't scientists, they were ideological fanatics.

Yep.
BTW, what's the difference between a social scientist at a university and an ideological fanatic?

re: #60 DesertSage

And yet we still have scientists...with political biases...who are promoting Man Made Global Warming as a fact. Even before all the facts are in.

Actually, it's the politicians and activists who are promoting man-made GM. Scientists are doing science. Period. There are more papers coming out contradicting the general political consensus of man-made Global Warming than there are papers supporting it. But the politicians and activists are quashing the science that undermines their ideology.

re: #133 HelloDare

Somebody please give him some "Clear Brain" drops.

The electrical signals from his brain to his mouth should have been interrupted somehow...I guess Ben will just have to wait for God to get around to intelligently designing a man-muzzle.

re: #118 BabbaZee

re: #77 right wing zephyr

Thou cockered pox-marked malcontent!

Hey without the pox that one is true
lol

You've been cockered?

Does that mean that when you sing, people mistakenly assume you're black?

Oh, my....

Your virginity breeds mites, much like a cheese.

I think we could have used that one a few threads back.

re: #144 FrogMarch

I guess we all better stop going to the hospital for treatment when we get sick.

Well, if Joseph Mengele was the attending physician I wouldn't go the hospital either.

re: #150 ploome hineni

Ploome

"Am I the only one who has a problem with comparing Ben Stein to Rev. Wright?"

I do agree that comparing Ben Stein to Rev. Wright is a stretch.

Again, the major point that Stein makes in his movie is that there is one thing that is taboo to talk about in academic circles, ID. Look at how virulent the discussion begins here. Thoughts and ideas should be discussed and debated freely and yet, when the discussion is evolution, we break down into name calling and shouts for closing the discussion. At the very least the discussion is said to be flowing down a drain or one side is ignorant while the other is enlightened.

Years of indoctrination breeds contempt for the spirit of learning. It is not only religion and politics that indoctrinates, but science based on theory proclaimed as fact. Most science is based on suggestive knowledge, and when one of the suggestions is questioned the initiates become beyond reasoned.

Has Stein changed, or did he always believe this?

I don't logically see why there has to be such vicious divergence between GOD and science.

Two entirely different world views are using entirely different terms and definitions to describe essentially the same things.

It's like people are arguing in two entirely different languages on this topic.

The problem here is one of identity and faith.
Each faith seeks to impose it's idea of morality upon the other, and neither side is sufficiently convinced of the truth of their FAITH to withstand opposition without all the hissing and spitting and anger and fear.

The self professed true believers in this brawl,
whether scientific or religious
do not truly believe at all.

Or there would be nothing to fight about.

re: #135 Occasional Reader

Full disclore: I'm usually thinking of Penelope Cruz in lingerie

Then I bet you like Google Image.

re: #139 MacGregor

Is it safe to say the science of eugenics was manipulated by Hitler to kill non-master race members? The science of agw is killing people.

It makes about as much sense as to say the science of Newton's Law of the Conservation of Momentum, which describes how bullets hit objects, is responsible for wars.

re: #48 BabbaZee

Hey this may come in handy on this thread

Thanks, a good start to Friday, insulted by-eth Shakethspear, a multitude of times.

re: #152 jcm

Helicopter, a loose collection of parts flying in formation.

And I don’t believe in the theory of “autorotation”, cause I haven’t seen it work yet, its been tried many times, but yet to be proven.

but science based on theory proclaimed as fact

Ayayay. Not this again.

I am of the opinion that social science isn't really a science. Kind of like Social Darwinism isn't really about Darwinism. I have always found social science more tied to statistics. At least thats all I ever see them researching. 33% of people think x is ok, while 46% of people think that y is better.

re: #136 jcm

They're so ugly the Earth repels them.

Rule #17

re: #136 jcm

Helo's don't fly...
They vibrate so badly the earth rejects them.
;')

They beat the air into submission.

re: #154 Kenneth

Actually, it's the politicians and activists who are promoting man-made GM. Scientists are doing science. Period. There are more papers coming out contradicting the general political consensus of man-made Global Warming than there are papers supporting it. But the politicians and activists are quashing the science that undermines their ideology.

But sometimes scientists swerve over into the activist role. I can't think of the name of the NASA scientist who is holding up global warming is true and claiming he was being silenced about it--all the while talking at every venue he could get. He seemed to have moved over into activism.

I know of at least one field where some scientists will get solid results that don't follow the accepted model and when they go to summarize their results, they say the exact opposite of what their research has found. Keep reading [Link: junkfoodscience.blogspot.com...] to find example after example of this.

If it can happen in one field, I won't be surprised to see it happening in other fields.

re: #163 CyanSnowHawk

Then I bet you like Google Image.

You're blinding me... with science!

re: #154 Kenneth

Actually, it's the politicians and activists who are promoting man-made GM. Scientists are doing science. Period. T

I am sorry Kenneth, but a scientist is a man and has ideas about how the world should be. Further, very few scientists refuse to sell out for the almighty funding dollar.

re: #65 edward cropper

I think Ben has some genuine points that are quite realistic and valid.
If one interprets his movie to be a blatant attack on evolution then I am not surprised that he would be attacked by that element.
To deny that science has at times gone off the deep end and place "intellectual accomplishment" in a glorified status is total nonsense.
The scientific community has been the greatest opponents to many of the great discoveries of science. Pasteur is just one bold example.
When mankind takes itself too seriously and feels man himself has all the answers then you have the makings of a Holocaust.

Yes, but you can say the same thing about philosophy and religion, too. I think your best point is in the last sentence....about man thinking he has all the answers. True scientists, philosophers, and seekers of God know they don't have all the answers and they are always seeking to learn more.
Anything can be made into an idol...whether the Golden Calf or Robespierre's Goddess of Reason. Combine that with the hubris you speak of, and you probably have a menace to humanity!

re: #153 solomonpanting

Yep.
BTW, what's the difference between a social scientist at a university and an ideological fanatic?

Tenure?

re: #131 Muadib

Thank thee!

re: #160 Mekan

Again, the major point that Stein makes in his movie is that there is one thing that is taboo to talk about in academic circles, ID. Look at how virulent the discussion begins here. Thoughts and ideas should be discussed and debated freely and yet, when the discussion is evolution, we break down into name calling and shouts for closing the discussion. At the very least the discussion is said to be flowing down a drain or one side is ignorant while the other is enlightened.

Years of indoctrination breeds contempt for the spirit of learning. It is not only religion and politics that indoctrinates, but science based on theory proclaimed as fact. Most science is based on suggestive knowledge, and when one of the suggestions is questioned the initiates become beyond reasoned.

If they wanted to teach Intelligent design at a collage that should be fine, but they need to make a new department up, cause it just ain't science.

re: #166 DownRightMeanAmerican

And I don’t believe in the theory of “autorotation”, cause I haven’t seen it work yet, its been tried many times, but yet to be proven.

Shades of the Saga of Minigun. (a troll long ago who claimed to be a rotorhead).

The

telling them what to do

is the phrase that gains insight into what Stein is saying.

re: #158 DesertSage

Well, if Joseph Mengele was the attending physician I wouldn't go the hospital either.

Then shouldn't Stein say "Nazi's kill"? -or- "Nazi's killed people in the name of science." Which they did and then we wouldn't be having this discussion.
the broad brush statement that "science kills" is just silly in an era where advancements in science save lives.

re: #162 BabbaZee

Preach it Sistah!

I haven't seen Ben Steins movie, but I can scroll up and watch the flick that Charles has posted.

I actually have no problem in seeing how evolution is nothing more than the continuation of what our creator started. It's not like anyone knows what kind of watch God owns.

re: #64 Ben Hur

Question:

What religion is Ben Stein?

Did he convert?

Maybe he's familiar with the writings of Rabbi Avigdor Miller.

Verily I doth detect putrid vapours of fugly orgly !

this attack on science sounds a lot like what the islamists would do. science is not the reason germans killed so many people in ww2. it was their twisted racist thinking.

Oh come on . . . Stein was painting a word-picture with an oversized brush.
There's a huge amount of hyperbole from both sides of the ID controversy.
There's something about this issue that causes normally civil people to be extremely thin-skinned (if not outright hostile to anyone with an opposing view.
Also . . .
To Richard Dawkins, I'm a total idiot (and probably a proto-terrorist) if I have a belief in God -- he's also said that life here on earth could be the result of a visit by alien life seeders, but under no circumstances could life be the result of a supernatural (ie-God) cause.
And I'm a loon!?

/leaves room muttering himself

re: #139 MacGregor

Is it safe to say the science of eugenics was manipulated by Hitler to kill non-master race members? The science of agw is killing people.

I don't think it is safe to call eugenics science, at least as it's ever been practiced. 'Eugenics' is a mask to enforce ones own bigotrys, barrowing language from a rather simple explantion of how species may change over time based on observations of the nasty, brutish, and short lives in the natural world.

re: #181 BulgarWheat

I have not seen the movie either
It would require me mingling with crowds of people in a small dark room
Ain't gonna happen
lol

I'll see it later

re: #184 song_and_dance_man

I may be wrong, but I tend to think those who hold to the theory of evolution don't believe in God.

No, that's not true. There are many people who believe in both and feel that there is no problem. Others believe that you can't honestly hold both positions.

re: #166 DownRightMeanAmerican

And I don’t believe in the theory of “autorotation”, cause I haven’t seen it work yet, its been tried many times, but yet to be proven.

The middle of an autorotation is a hell of a time to wake up. (Personal experience)

It’s a pity Crouch didn’t invite the Rev. Jeremiah Wright into the studio for a three-way conversation. It would have elevated the tone.

Charles, does this mean you think racists add to the conversation? Really?

Kirls

re: #183 BabbaZee

don't worry about the smell. I spilled the bong water again. I'll go get a towel and some fabreeze.

And, for those upthread questioning his 'religious status' . .

Ben Stein is Jewish.

Just because he said something you don't like doesn't mean you ought to start 'questioning' his religion.

re: #184 song_and_dance_man

Evolution is a partially described mechanism, not a Cause.

There is one Cause.

If someone believes evolution is a cause it is functioning as their GOD

believes or disbelieve evolution as a mechanism, this has nothing to do with faith in GOD

re: #191 Kirly

wasn't charles, that was from the link at NRO.

re: #154 Kenneth

Actually, it's the politicians and activists who are promoting man-made GM. Scientists are doing science. Period. There are more papers coming out contradicting the general political consensus of man-made Global Warming than there are papers supporting it. But the politicians and activists are quashing the science that undermines their ideology.

Plenty of scientists are shuting up and taking the grant money. Sure, maybe they aren't real scientists... Sort of how Wright and Phelps (spit, spit) aren't real christians.

re: #191 Kirly

Charles, does this mean you think racists add to the conversation? Really?

Kirls

Those were not the words of Charles.

re: #191 Kirly

Charles, does this mean you think racists add to the conversation? Really?

Kirls

Kirls, does this mean a) you're incapable of detecting sarcasm, and b) you're also incapable of distinguishing quoted material from original material?

re: #191 Kirly

Charles, does this mean you think racists add to the conversation? Really?

Kirls

1) That comment is sarcasm, and 2) I didn't write it. It's a quote from the linked article, as the sections inside the gray rectangles always are.

re: #198 solomonpanting

though, suprisingly few have said anything about that.

most seem content to trash Stein.

re: #195 LanceKates

wasn't charles, that was from the link at NRO.

well THAT's a relief!

Apologies to Charles.

re: #194 BabbaZee

If someone believes evolution is a cause

Nobody with even a halfway-educated understanding of Darwinian evolution believes it is a primal cause. It does not even purport to be.

re: #200 Charles

even as sarcasm, it is inappropriate for that writer to trash Ben Stein with a comparison to an anti-american racist.

re: #200 Charles

1) That comment is sarcasm, and 2) I didn't write it. It's a quote from the linked article, as the sections inside the gray rectangles always are.

yeah, sorry about that. me and my super high resolution monitor.

again, my apologies.

re: #180 FrogMarch

Then shouldn't Stein say "Nazi's kill"? -or- "Nazi's killed people in the name of science."

I think that would be most accurate. Maybe that's what he was trying to convey. If it was, then he should have been a lot more clear in his reasoning.

Sloppiness in wording is o defense though, he should have known better.

re: #200 Charles

Jinx! Buy me a Coke.

I don't think that there's much doubt left that Ben has become the spokesman for a regressive anti-science movement. Religion has lost a lot of influence in Western Culture since the Enlightenment and I think it has culminated in this new wave of anti-intellectualism. Ben is a brilliant man but this isn't a matter of difference of opinion nor is he incapable of understanding the basics of science. The fact is that he just refuses to understand the basics of science. I've seen many of my oponents in the debate here use the same tactic. I've spent hours explaining the scientific method to people who are able but unwilling to understand it. It's willful ignorance and it's a very troublesome trend.

re: #177 The_Vig

If they wanted to teach Intelligent design at a collage that should be fine, but they need to make a new department up, cause it just ain't science.

I am not opposed to this Vig. The problem is that science proclaims that it is science to state that life began with no ID outside science's parameters of known natural laws. When science proclaims simply that they are not able to tell you how life began then we can leave ID out of the science lecture. But science says it KNOWS and it does not. IF science says that it knows without logical proof than the alternative logic must be brought in to the discussion.

re: #171 vxbush & #173 Mekan

Very true. But when that NASA scientist started doing political activism, he stopped doing science. And scientists can indeed be co-opted by the dollar. There is a joke current in the academic world... if you want to be sure of getting that research grant, just add the magic words:

"To study the effects of global warming on (fill in the blank)" to your grant application.

I'm just trying to make the point that there is a difference between science and ideology. The irony is that Ben Stein is using his ideology to condemn what he mistakenly thinks is science, but what is in fact just another form of ideology.

re: #207 Occasional Reader

Jinx! Buy me a Coke.

your cover is blown.

admit it. You're Charles' sock puppet

re: #33 BulgarWheat

ancient bumper sticker There is no gravity. The earth sucks

How ancient? Was it found on some Flintstonemobiles?

re: #203 Occasional Reader

Nobody with even a halfway-educated understanding of Darwinian evolution believes it is a primal cause. It does not even purport to be.

Hasn't the experiment of Stanley Miller often held up to be exactly that?

re: #203 Occasional Reader

many of the arguments I have read here between the mods and the rockers on this
read as though the argument is being made from this assumption

re: #203 Occasional Reader

Nobody with even a halfway-educated understanding of Darwinian evolution believes it is a primal cause. It does not even purport to be.

So what do they purport to be the cause?

There are areas of competence and vice-versa, the line between is a fine one. Mr Stein ,regrettably, just demonstrated the ease of crossing that line.

re: #184 song_and_dance_man

I may be wrong, but I tend to think those who hold to the theory of evolution don't believe in God.

You are wrong there. Many believers do not take the Bible to be a literal history. Many believe that evolution is the mechanism by which God controls creation.

re: #203 Occasional Reader

We're taking a break from saying the same thing over and over again. Need to recharge a bit.

re: #184 song_and_dance_man

I may be wrong, but I tend to think those who hold to the theory of evolution don't believe in God.

No, but there is a loud group who don't.
Many others believe that this is how G-d created our world. There are various levels of belief on how carefully He guided the development.

re: #141 LanceKates

Am I the only one who has a problem with comparing Ben Stein to Rev. Wright?

No.

Let The Conclusion Jumping Tricatholon Begin!

re: #173 Mekan

I am sorry Kenneth, but a scientist is a man and has ideas about how the world should be. Further, very few scientists refuse to sell out for the almighty funding dollar.

Some of us are women, but in general you are correct. Very few scientists get to do pure research with no one behind them pulling the strings to the pocketbook. In recent years as it has become possible to patent "scientific discoveries" like stem cells, things have gotten even worse, because "science" has become a rush for gold - millions to the individual scientist, more to the companies backing him.

When you look at the "facts" of "global warming" keep well in mind the billions of potential profit from the development of the "next big market" in different cars, different technologies, "sin credits" - how much of the hype is really real, and how much do you think is propaganda intended to scare people into funding the "science"?

It's pretty easy to find Expelled on the web if you know how to use Bittorrents, by the way. I went and wasted my time and money to see it.

re: #210 song_and_dance_man

Since I don't bong, I'll need some beer for this thread.

bbl

i'll just go back to work. i didn't plan on commenting in these threads because they have, so far, always ended up as Christian-bashing and God-denying. Not the kind of thing i want to be associated with.

later.

Re #184.

You are so wrong, you are either willfully ignorant, or simply dishonest.

I don't see it any other way.

Quietly sitting in my corner over here. And no, I don't think science kills. I rather think all truth is of God.

So far this thread hasn't turned into a bash fest.....

re: #225 Kirly

i'll just go back to work. i didn't plan on commenting in these threads because they have, so far, always ended up as Christian-bashing and God-denying. Not the kind of thing i want to be associated with.

later.

*hug*

HA!

aww crap. I hope render didn't see that.

*evil grin*

re: #194 BabbaZee

Science answers the questions "What?" and "How?"

Science cannot answer the question, "Why?"

In fact, science lacks the ability to even ask that question.

To be fair, Stein also believes that a good breakfast, shoes and garden gnomes also lead to killing people.

re: #214 vxbush

Hasn't the experiment of Stanley Miller often held up to be exactly that?

Different topic. Formation of complex proteins and Darwinian evolution; not the same thing.

In any event, I'm speaking of primal cause not just related to how life arose.

#215 BZ:

I have read here between the mods and the rockers on this

My jacket's gonna be cut slim and checked
maybe a touch of seersucker with an open neck
I ride a GS scooter with my haircut neat
I wear my wartime coat in the wind and sleet

re: #151 LanceKates

I was born in a barn, not on a hedge.

at least, what's what my mother kept telling me as a kid.

or was she asking?

"LANCE?! What the hell? Were you born in a barn?!"

Yeah, I think that was asking. That confuses me though... I mean.. wasn't she there?

Yeah, well, you think that's confusing.
My kids have to live with ,"What the hell is the matter with you? Were you raised by wolves?!"

And by the way, I'm not denying God or bashing Christians, not one bit.

For some reason I need to keep posting that over and over.

re: #226 wanglese

That was kind of a crude way to put that.

re: #224 Charles

Bittorrents

?
Help a techtarded sistah out.....

re: #229 Kenneth

How very sad for science lol

re: #183 BabbaZee

Verily I doth detect putrid vapours of fugly orgly !

gamey fumes of smelly trolly?

re: #184 song_and_dance_man

I may be wrong, but I tend to think those who hold to the theory of evolution don't believe in God.

The vatican has endorsed it since the 50's. I'd venture to say most educated Christians in the west believe in evolution. Most (80-90%) of the population of Europe (70-80% christian) accept evolution. I can google to get exact figure but I'm pretty close.

re: #216 BabbaZee

So what do they purport to be the cause?

Cosmology is a different subject, that's all I'm saying.

re: #232 wolfie

Yeah, well, you think that's confusing.
My kids have to live with ,"What the hell is the matter with you? Were you raised by wolves?!"

to which the answer is "But... mother.... oh dearest mother who gave birth to us and that we love wholly..... you are a wolfie!"

moreso around their birthdays or christmas.

re: #227 coquimbojoe

Quietly sitting in my corner over here. And no, I don't think science kills. I rather think all truth is of God.

So far this thread hasn't turned into a bash fest.....

Get out of the corner Thou jarring elf-skinned moldwarp! And start bashing!
;-P

Hey Joe, how you been?

re: #233 Charles

And by the way, I'm not denying God or bashing Christians, not one bit.

And us Jews? Do you love us also?

re: #233 Charles

I'm not denying God

Charles, out of curiosity; do you practice a religion? If you don't mind my asking.

Science also provided those weapons that not only killed Jews and everyone else in WWII, but also saved them from being completely exterminated when we took the camps and liberated them.

Those soldiers marching into the gates of Dachau to free the Jews had science in their hands and flying overhead, while his other relatives praised them.

Ben Stein should remember that too.

re: #231 Occasional Reader

My jacket's gonna be cut slim and checked
maybe a touch of seersucker with an open neck
I ride a GS scooter with my haircut neat
I wear my wartime coat in the wind and sleet

But the problem occurs when I hear scientists using terms like chemical evolution. The term "evolution" crops up in multiple fields and therefore leaves the lay reader open to great misunderstanding.

I've read Ben Stein off and on over several years and found him to be quite an intellect. This latest stuff just seems so bizarre.

re: #154 Kenneth

Actually, it's the politicians and activists who are promoting man-made GM. Scientists are doing science. Period. There are more papers coming out contradicting the general political consensus of man-made Global Warming than there are papers supporting it. But the politicians and activists are quashing the science that undermines their ideology.

Exactly. Science is pretty self-correcting as it uses evidence as its basis. If you lack evidence, you aren't doing science.

I seem to recall some politicians and other non-scientists getting into another argument similar to this back in the 1910s and 1920s. In fact, they made the teaching of a part of science illegal, similar to what global warming aka climate change advocates are attempting to do today.

I strongly suggest that both sides read The Creationists: The Evolution of Scientific Creationism (aka The Creationists: From Scientific Creationism to Intelligent Design - newest edition) by Ronald L. Numbers. Numbers has a concise history of the approximately 125 year old movement.

re: #241 jcm

Get out of the corner Thou jarring elf-skinned moldwarp! And start bashing!
;-P

Hey Joe, how you been?

Good. Not in the mood to bash. Too much energy expended at people who I generally like...

re: #223 galloping granny

When you look at the "facts" of "global warming"

The Big Lie-- Goebbel's Warning.

re: #230 HelloDare

To be fair, Stein also believes that a good breakfast, shoes and garden gnomes also lead to killing people.

Not the Travelocity gnome!
/

re: #216 BabbaZee

So what do they purport to be the cause?

There is no scientific answer to that question. Science cannot even ask that question.

So, should we write a new book? "Shut Up and Act!"?

re: #243 Occasional Reader

I don't practice a religion. I practice living.

/In case you ask.

re: #246 Peacekeeper

I've read Ben Stein off and on over several years and found him to be quite an intellect. This latest stuff just seems so bizarre.

Maybe he's having a huge joke on all of us.

re: #209 Mekan

I am not opposed to this Vig. The problem is that science proclaims that it is science to state that life began with no ID outside science's parameters of known natural laws. When science proclaims simply that they are not able to tell you how life began then we can leave ID out of the science lecture. But science says it KNOWS and it does not. IF science says that it knows without logical proof than the alternative logic must be brought in to the discussion.

The reason that science doesn't acknowledge ID is that they have found no evidence of it. They have not seen the hand of God manipulating our form and function. There are still questions to ask and facts to check, but saying that God created us is jumping the gun. If science does find the ghost in the machine they will add it to our body of knowledge.

If, someday, science finds that we did indeed have an intelligent designer, lets hope that its the designer that you guys assume must be god.

re: #246 Peacekeeper

I've read Ben Stein off and on over several years and found him to be quite an intellect. This latest stuff just seems so bizarre.

Maybe that Clear Eyes stuff is toxic.

re: #230 HelloDare

To be fair, Stein also believes that a good breakfast, shoes and garden gnomes also lead to killing people.

Speaking of gnomes. One has inhabited Mt. St. Helens.

re: #246 Peacekeeper

I've read Ben Stein off and on over several years and found him to be quite an intellect. This latest stuff just seems so bizarre.

perhaps, then, it is not to the extreme that it appears to be.

I've seen alot of feedback on this film of his and the only crankiness I've seen (apart from the "creationists are knuckledraggers") is over this bit about a connection between social darwinism and the nazi eugenics experiments/crap.

There is little else I can find about the film, so it makes me sound as if the rest was well made.... or, it is a 2 hour film about nazi eugenics.

re: #250 Kosh's Shadow

Not the Travelocity gnome!
/

Yes, the Travelocity gnome!

Stein must be one self loathing guy.

He is, after all, an economist - a social scientist.

How To Download a Torrent

re: #227 coquimbojoe

Quietly sitting in my corner over here. And no, I don't think science kills. I rather think all truth is of God.

So far this thread hasn't turned into a bash fest.....

Science is only useful as it serves the Revolution. COMRADES!

re: #239 Occasional Reader

Cosmology is a different subject, that's all I'm saying.

Okeedokee.

re: #216 BabbaZee

Sorry, scientist can't skip to the end of the book and read the ending. It has to be discovered.

TO: Charles Johnson, et al.
RE: "Off the Rails"?

"Stein: ... Love of God and compassion and empathy leads you to a very glorious place, and science leads you to killing people." -- Expelled, as cited by Charles Johnson

"....I agree with you on a lot of things, but with this intelligent design detour you’ve gone completely off the rails." -- Charles Johnson

Since when is it 'off the rails' to speak one's honestly held, and reasonably stated, opinion?

As for 'science leads you to killing people', I do think that Hitler and Pol Pot and a number of recent entrants into atheistic 'Science IS God' arena would provide enough proof of Stein's observation.

After all, isn't the concept of improving the 'race' based on 'scientific' determinations that say, "One genotype is better than another genotype"?

Ooops....did I just touch on the G-word?

Whatever the case, I think we discussed EVEN HERE—some time back—that atheists are greater at mass murder than theists. And furthermore, the 20th Century atheistic mass-murderers always cited 'science'. Or am I mistaken?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. Regarding christian ethics/understanding, Glenn Reynolds, in my honestly held opinion, is a poor example thereof.

Gotta get home. later.

re: #248 coquimbojoe

Good. Not in the mood to bash. Too much energy expended at people who I generally like...

I hear you there.

point to note, as this is a commercial film, downloading the film to view is not exactly.... you know.... legal.

re: #236 BabbaZee

Not at all. Many scientists are religious and turn to their faith for those answers. For example, Dr. Stephen Hawking is a Christian.