Good find, Charles. Thank you.

Pitiful.

What's the ideology of the station? I do recall a bunch of Red celebrating when Saddam was captured. This is the sort of thing one should expect from the Reds on May Mass Murderer Day.

My response to all of those is damn straight.

That would be shocking -- if it didn't read like every single seventh-grade textbook in America. Which it does.

The moonbats have taken over the educational system, people.

Jimmy Carter 1977-1981 – Sponsor of the Camp David Accords with the Zionist entity.

There's gratitude for you.

You sure this isn't from the Rev. "G-d DAMN America" Wright?

This illustrates the US's real mistake in Iraq -- the military did its job wonderfully, but we've almost completely failed to manage the ideological front.

Fear US!

Our own media largely views the US as the problem in the world as far as "world peace" is concerned so how big a surprise is it that the media's Islamic buds would echo this orthodoxy ?

re: #6 zombie

That would be shocking -- if it didn't read like every single seventh-grade textbook in America. Which it does.

The moonbats have taken over the educational system, people.

How true. On the other hand, as a teacher-friend of mine once said, we shouldn't be too upset about the content of textbooks today. After all, most of the kids can't read them!.................Sigh.

Um.....Freedom of Speech?

Buncha idiots who made this. It's Franklin Pierce, not Pierce Franklin. Stupid idiot jihadis can't effin be bothered to read American history enough to know that.

Strange how they left out Teddy Roosevelt -- massacrer of the Puerto Ricans and the buffalo; and FDR, interner the Japanese-Americans and firebomber of Dresden; and Grant, who killed countless people throughout his career; et cetera, et cetera.

They should have just flipped through a copy of Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United States, and the list would have been much more thorough.

Yup. Clearly not winning any hearts and minds. When Lincoln et al. make the list of "mass murderers", you've got serious problems.

They don't like Lincoln? Jeez~

re: #9 Charles

I'm sticking by my thesis: Saddam Hussein was one of the best friends the U.S. had in the Middle East. Turning against him at the start of the first Gulf War was our big mistake. We should have just politely told him he couldn't invade Kuwait, back when we had that kind of leverage.

I don't think the ideological front can be won in an Arab Muslim country.

Carter gets no credit for screwing over the Shah?

If Jimmah had supported our buddy the Shah, Ahmadinnerjacket and his buds would be fertilizer by now.

The Shah did not deal in women's undies on the head. He was the real deal.

Oddly enough, they miss FDR.

re: #5 song_and_dance_man

Where is the Islamic list?

Oh yeah, it's still being tabulated.

No. It's forbidden.

re: #9 Charles

This illustrates the US's real mistake in Iraq -- the military did its job wonderfully, but we've almost completely failed to manage the ideological front.

Well, they are probably emualting something they found on Indymedia or some US college web site

re: #20 OldLineTexan

Carter gets no credit for screwing over the Shah?

If Jimmah had supported our buddy the Shah, Ahmadinnerjacket and his buds would be fertilizer by now.

The Shah did not deal in women's undies on the head. He was the real deal.

Yep, even Dhimmi Carter makes the list. What friends he has in the jihadis.

Surprised they included Jimmy "Jimmy Carter 1977-1981 – Sponsor of the Camp David Accords with the Zionist entity." I thought they were in love with guy....

Why didn't they just start with George Washington and The Revolutionary War?

Well, I try to say something nice... aside from some weird misspellings, the production values were top-notch. The morphing was very pretty. I see that my tax money is being spent well.

We are the great war machine for peace and justice...U.S.A. and Freedom! :)

Yes, my Jihadist friends, and McCain is completely nuts and still pissed off about a prisoner of war, so he might kill a lot of you.

re: #6 zombie

That would be shocking -- if it didn't read like every single seventh-grade textbook in America. Which it does.

The moonbats have taken over the educational system, people.

Heh. In my 9th grade history class for the summer assignment we had to read the first chapter of Zinn's People's History. I didn't know who he was at the time and it was presented simply as history. However, I was able to see right through it and criticized Zinn for his understatement of the atrocities that native peoples committed against each other in favor of all of the nice things they did. It makes me proud that I can look back and know that my world-view was inherently anti-Zinn, even before I was aware of his political persuasion.

I call it evolution

They left out JFK.

Surely as a Catholic, he did something offensive to Islam.

re: #9 Charles

Alas Charles, as you know probably all too well, one of the worst mistakes we as Americans constantly make is that we think that other people think as we do. They don't as we both know. I doubt that 1 in 10,000 Americans has read the Koran much less much of the Hadith. To deal with anybody on a rational basis, you must understand their values (or perhaps lack thereof). Sadly, these people vote.

it's funded by Iranians

Well osme of these things had to be done. They just make it sound bad.

No mention of Kennedy or Ford?

re: #13 wolfie

How true. On the other hand, as a teacher-friend of mine once said, we shouldn't be too upset about the content of textbooks today. After all, most of the kids can't read them!.................Sigh.

I just read a chapter of my kid's history textbook (fifth grade). It was on Manifest Destiny. No moonbat content.

re: #32 shibumi

They left out JFK.

Surely as a Catholic, he did something offensive to Islam.

Exist.

And Marilyn Monroe.

That's pretty weak. Who researched that and missed FDR or even our founding fathers? I guess my question for MEMRI would be... What's your point? At least our leaders tend to go after people who are armed.

Wow. PMSNBC broadcasts in Iraq.

/who knew?

re: #34 winston06

it's funded by Iranians

Yup, I'd take that bet

re: #30 Jimmy the Notable

re: #16 zombie

well I guess we were thinking along the same lines.

re: #41 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

no kidding... the language of the script seems like it

For those in Iraq who already hate America, this kind of slander doesn't change much. For those in Iraq who do not hate America, this kind thing reflects a society that can now criticize its government. Something to be proud of, perhaps?

And incidentally, I think it's pretty funny that the soundtrack of this anti-American whining is from a blockbuster American movie: Terminator 2: Judgement Day.

OT: If any of you guys live in Southern California, Nonie Darwish is speaking in Rancho Mirage, CA on May 11th... Let me know if anyone is interested and I can email more info....I am accessible by clicking on the nick...

re: #32 shibumi

They left out JFK.

Surely as a Catholic, he did something offensive to Islam.

Marilyn Monroe.

re: #9 Charles

Hugh Fitzgerald at Jihad Watch has been saying that for a long time

Pierce Franklin? Eh, close enough.

re: #9 Charles

This illustrates the US's real mistake in Iraq -- the military did its job wonderfully, but we've almost completely failed to manage the ideological front.

Charles, wasn't there an early attempt by the US military to run a propaganda war in Iraqi press and radio?
I seem to recall it being shut down cold by liberal here.

re: #45 barere

It's done by Iran, I assure you

re: #9 Charles

There are dozens of TV stations in Iraq. Every political & sectarian group has one. This station is the media outlet for Sunnis Arab Islamist faction. They frequently run interviews with Hamas spokesthugs and "experts" in Islamic law weighing in on topics like suicide bombing and child marriage.

This station is in no way represetative of the majority Iraqi public or media.

I would be very intersted to hear the comments from Omar or Mohammed at Iraq the Model about this TV station.

re: #9 Charles

Hamas=Iran

re: #45 barere

And incidentally, I think it's pretty funny that the soundtrack of this anti-American whining is from a blockbuster American movie: Terminator 2: Judgement Day.

Maybe they'll learn something about the American concept of usage fees...

re: #25 LoFlyer

Hamas hates Egyptian gov't for signing the Camp David Accords. That's why the Islamists assassinated Sadat.

re: #21 Honorary Yooper

Oddly enough, they miss FDR.

I doubt they "missed" FDR. To acknowledge FDR would be to tacitly acknowledge the Holocaust, something they probably deny ever happened (while wishing for another one through Iran and Syria).

re: #51 winston06

Bingo!

stupid jimmy carter. he'll be devastated.

re: #37 OldLineTexan

I just read a chapter of my kid's history textbook (fifth grade). It was on Manifest Destiny. No moonbat content.

That's good news. I don't know how true it is, but some folks I know in the public school system here say that Texas is key in not turning every textbook to the far left. Publishers don't want to lose that market.

re: #58 nyc redneck

he already is

re: #50 mean Gene

I remember millions of leaflets being dropped by U.S. planes before the war, saying, basically "we are your liberators, not your invaders. We are here to give your country back to you. We are willing to risk our lives to give you freedom. Please help us by staying safely in your houses, away from military installations."

re: #16 zombie

Strange how they left out Teddy Roosevelt -- massacrer of the Puerto Ricans and the buffalo; and FDR, interner the Japanese-Americans and firebomber of Dresden; and Grant, who killed countless people throughout his career; et cetera, et cetera.

They should have just flipped through a copy of Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United States, and the list would have been much more thorough.

Had American Taliban boy (Adam Gadahn) still been alive they probably would have.

That's enough to fry my last nerve.

FYI = My eldest is a history/ education major at Mt Union College here in Ohio.
I discovered that Zinn was the author of the text in use for one of his classes and blew a gasket . My son had no idea who Zinn is and after running a search on him was none too pleased that the entire class had been equally left in the dark as to the radical politics of the author.

re: #9 Charles

This illustrates the US's real mistake in Iraq -- the military did its job wonderfully, but we've almost completely failed to manage the ideological front.

The mistake in Iraq- and elsewhere in the Mideast- is the false belief held by some that Arabs/Islamics are capable of being indoctrinated to rationality and Western standards of freedom.

re: #60 winston06

he already is

lol, carter's hateful aspersions are coming home to roost.

re: #66 nyc redneck

he's a vile man

Jimmy Carter 1977-1981 – Sponsor of the Camp David Accords with the Zionist entity.

Yes, he's responsible for all the terrorism the Palis have committed on Israelis since then. And, actually, those Palis that were killed to protect Israel, as well.

re: #32 shibumi

They left out JFK.

Surely as a Catholic, he did something offensive to Islam.

He did have nuclear missiles positioned in Turkey. I'm sure that made a few islamists happy. Didn't make the ruskies too happy though, as they reciprocated by putting nukes in Cuba.

re: #65 Opinionated

The mistake in Iraq- and elsewhere in the Mideast- is the false belief held by some that Arabs/Islamics are capable of being indoctrinated to rationality and Western standards of freedom.

The other mistake is believing "the Arabs" is a monlithic block of like minded clones.

re: #59 wolfie

That's good news. I don't know how true it is, but some folks I know in the public school system here say that Texas is key in not turning every textbook to the far left. Publishers don't want to lose that market.

We are pretty mean. However, I see "Texas Edition" on a lot of the books, meaning that we are possibly no more than a skipped outpost in the long island-hopping campaign to utter idiocy.

George W. Bush 2001 till now – Thousands of dead and wounded in the invasion and occupation of Iraq, since 2001 to this day.

But wait-I thought Bush has killed MILLIONS of Iraqi citizens. Maybe even tens of millions.

They better check their numbers and get their story straight.

re: #62 mean Gene

Had American Taliban boy (Adam Gadahn) still been alive they probably would have.

Adam wasn't that well-read, He could've compiled a list of video-game atrocities.

re: #64 Yosemite Bill

FYI = My eldest is a history/ education major at Mt Union College here in Ohio.
I discovered that Zinn was the author of the text in use for one of his classes and blew a gasket . My son had no idea who Zinn is and after running a search on him was none too pleased that the entire class had been equally left in the dark as to the radical politics of the author.

It is one of the most commonly assigned texts in colleges today. That tells you how whacked out higher education is now.

re: #19 Last Mohican

I'm sticking by my thesis: Saddam Hussein was one of the best friends the U.S. had in the Middle East. Turning against him at the start of the first Gulf War was our big mistake. We should have just politely told him he couldn't invade Kuwait, back when we had that kind of leverage.

I don't think the ideological front can be won in an Arab Muslim country.

I agree with your last sentence wholeheartedly.

The rest I take issue with. With friends like that--ones that kill entire towns of an ethnic minority with chemical weapons--who needs enemies? Sure, we backed him during the Iran/Iraq war, but the lesser of two evils is still evil. And telling him he couldn't invade Kuwait? Come on, what better way is there to get an impetuous child to do something than to tell him not to? And while we still had that kind of leverage? Still had it? Who freaking invaded his country and overthrew his ass? Is that not leverage?

But I completely agree that the ideological front can't be truly won in a Muslim country. I don't think our government and our populace can grasp the immense cultural differences and win by both our standards and theirs. We've made very good progress in a lot of areas, but until we're ready to take a more cold-hearted stance, and our country is prepared to deal with the consequences of it, we won't completely win. A more cold-hearted stance would be, you fire on us from that house filled with your family, we destroy it right now. No warning, no chance to evacuate. You fire on us from that historic mosque, we destroy it. Right now. No questions, no advance warning.

We have taken the "high road" and fought this war on our terms and traditions without accepting that what we think of as a victory, they, too, see as a victory for themselves.

re: #19 Last Mohican

you gotta be kidding me....

i bet there are some iranians sitting there, watching and thinking back to all the murder committed in their country, by the mullahs after the shah was pushed out.
fck you jimmy, btw.

If the ed. system is as Zombie indicates, then it's Game Over.
Our enemies are too numerous, and too well situated.

re: #72 shibumi

But wait-I thought Bush has killed MILLIONS of Iraqi citizens. Maybe even tens of millions.

They better check their numbers and get their story straight.

I'm surprised they didn't go with Millions as well. But where do they get the 2001 from? I thought the invasion was in 2003?

re: #75 Sarge1984

the guy is wrong 100%

re: #72 shibumi

But wait-I thought Bush has killed MILLIONS of Iraqi citizens. Maybe even tens of millions.

They better check their numbers and get their story straight.

I thought it was billions. Iraq used to be the most populous country in the world!

This is priceless:

Woodrow Wilson 1913-1921 – World War I. Thousands of dead and wounded.

We entered at the end, of course, but curiously missing is FDR, since this outlet would likely blame him for the millions dead in WWII.

Just sayin'

re: #71 OldLineTexan

We are pretty mean. However, I see "Texas Edition" on a lot of the books, meaning that we are possibly no more than a skipped outpost in the long island-hopping campaign to utter idiocy.

I hate to see the "California Editions!"

re: #69 ec marm

He did have nuclear missiles positioned in Turkey. I'm sure that made a few islamists happy. Didn't make the ruskies too happy though, as they reciprocated by putting nukes in Cuba.

Old, obsolete, liquid fueled missiles that were effectively replaced land based Minuteman missiles in the US and sea launched Polaris missiles on subs. So trading them off for getting the Soviet missiles out of Cuba really wasn't a loss.

re: #77 nyc redneck

Iranians who saw the overthrow of the Shah hate Dhimmi Carter for letting Khomeini seize that country

re: #70 Kenneth

The other mistake is believing "the Arabs" is a monlithic block of like minded clones.

If they were a monolithic block they wouldn't be engaged in killing each other when there are no Infidels around.

re: #69 ec marm

He did have nuclear missiles positioned in Turkey. I'm sure that made a few islamists happy. Didn't make the ruskies too happy though, as they reciprocated by putting nukes in Cuba.

Good catch. I knew there was a modern president that could not be guilt free.

As for the Clinton attack, wasn't that the one that hit a baby food factory, or was it an old folks home?

re: #75 Sarge1984

Then what are we to make of the "Sons of Iraq" and Anbar Awakening movements which have turned on the Islamists and are now allies of the US? The US is finally winning the ideological war. This particular TV station is the media outelt of the enemy factions -radical Islamists, very likely funded by Iran.

re: #79 Jimmy the Notable

I'm surprised they didn't go with Millions as well. But where do they get the 2001 from? I thought the invasion was in 2003?

They really meant to say Afghanistan. That started in 2001.

Just a really small detail. Not worth mentioning.

Ronald Reagan 1981-1989 – Supporting the 1982 [sic] Israeli attack on the Iraqi nuclear plant.

1981, but what do facts matter.

re: #88 Kenneth

This particular TV station is the media outelt of the enemy factions -radical Islamists, very likely funded by Iran.

The problem is proving it.

Of course the moonbats won't believe it anyway.

re: #85 winston06

That's the "tell"! Carter was in that video, & only the Iranians are so f*cked up they think Carter is a Yankee imperialist.

I think you pegged it!

re: #90 marjoriemoon

and Reagan didn't support it either in the first place, afaik.

re: #91 The Other Les

The problem is proving it.

Of course the moonbats won't believe it anyway.

Even if they do they'll say, what's so bad about Iran?

re: #91 The Other Les

That's why I want to hear form Iraq the Model...

Kenneth (#52),

There are dozens of TV stations in Iraq. Every political & sectarian group has one. This station is the media outlet for Sunnis Arab Islamist faction. They frequently run interviews with Hamas spokesthugs and "experts" in Islamic law weighing in on topics like suicide bombing and child marriage.

This station is in no way represetative of the majority Iraqi public or media.

Thanks for the background info Kenneth..

Why was Jefferson not included? Wasn't it under his watch that the Marines were founded to fight the First Barbary War?

re: #75 Sarge1984

I just finished reading Michael Yon's book. The impression I got from that is that we are making progress in making the changes to get an ideological 'win' in Iraq. The real responsibility for the change is the Iraqi's themselves and getting beyond the tribes, the corruption, Islam, and Iranian meddling to establish an Arab democracy in the region.

He makes a good case against not only withdrawal but also dropping a hammer on the people of Iraq.

BBIM

re: #87 shibumi

Good catch. I knew there was a modern president that could not be guilt free.

As for the Clinton attack, wasn't that the one that hit a baby food factory, or was it an old folks home?

Kitten ranch, I think.

re: #88 Kenneth

Then what are we to make of the "Sons of Iraq" and Anbar Awakening movements which have turned on the Islamists and are now allies of the US? The US is finally winning the ideological war. This particular TV station is the media outelt of the enemy factions -radical Islamists, very likely funded by Iran.

Do you really believe there will be any organized support of the US when our troops finally depart- notwithstanding how much blood and treasure we leave there.

re: #97 solomonpanting

Why was Jefferson not included? Wasn't it under his watch that the Marines were founded to fight the First Barbary War?

The Marines were founded in 1775, before the Revolutionary War

re: #93 winston06

and Reagan didn't support it either in the first place, afaik.

You're most correct.

Heh, the Americans were also undeniably unprovoked in the Barbary Wars...a point I would think most Islamofascists would concede.

re: #97 solomonpanting

Why was Jefferson not included? Wasn't it under his watch that the Marines were founded to fight the First Barbary War?

Slave Owner. That's a good thing in Islam.

re: #101 Opinionated

You mean by the Iraqis? Yes. The Kurds are very pro-US, some of the Shia are pro-US, and slowly, some of the Sunnis are grudgingly accepting of the US. More importantly, they know only the US will protect them form their neighbours.

Charles,
What an irony that their site is hosted in the US
[Link: www.alrafidain.tv...]
And their hosting company has an Arabic page as well ; they have office in Egypt and Saudi, as their "contact us" page says.
How sad!

re: #85 winston06

Iranians who saw the overthrow of the Shah hate Dhimmi Carter for letting Khomeini seize that country

that's what my persian friend says.
her parents are still there.

re: #101 Opinionated

Do you really believe there will be any organized support of the US when our troops finally depart- notwithstanding how much blood and treasure we leave there.

Read Michael Yon's book and then answer your question.

Granted, it's only one viewpoint - but one developed by a blogger / independent journalist who has been there, seen that, good and bad.

re: #108 nyc redneck

Many Iranians think the US helped Khomenei. But then, they are given to paranoid conspiracy theories.

re: #97 solomonpanting

Islamists are not that smart to read history stuff properly

This bit of video smells of Commie. But that's what you get with freedom of speech, the right to make an ass of yourself.

re: #78 rawmuse

If the ed. system is as Zombie indicates, then it's Game Over.
Our enemies are too numerous, and too well situated.

The situation is not good. It is not hopeless, but it is not good.
Take Howard Zinn's book. The overwhleming majority of historians in academia, including many that assign it, know quite well that it is crap. But no one will dare to speak out against assigning it.
(I'm not talking about part-timers like me w/ no tenure, either. I'm talking about people who have nothing to lose but PC popularity.)

re: #109 Athos

I've ordered Yon's book. I think the man is amazing. I love his writing & his photos.

re: #97 solomonpanting

Why was Jefferson not included? Wasn't it under his watch that the Marines were founded to fight the First Barbary War?

they are embarrassed at the devastating defeat they suffered.

I don't think we can realistically expect to win over the hearts and minds of all Iraqis. We can't do that in our own country. If Moveon.org had produced this commercial the only difference would be that some of their pet presidents would be left off the list. That they can produce something that goes against their governments policies with an "occupying" force in country says more for our success than our failure.

Except for maybe Andrew Jackson (who was really a ruthless guy) none of those actions were meant to oppress or conquer anyone, and many were engaged in to either support others or stop tyrants. Is war a good thing? Of course not, but sometimes it's a necessary thing.

Not the least of which, those Iraqis have some nerve judging others on war, oppression and conquering.

The world is making me very tired, lately.

re: #102 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

The Marines were founded in 1775, before the Revolutionary War

Yes. I stand corrected.

Opinionated (#101),

Do you really believe there will be any organized support of the US when our troops finally depart- notwithstanding how much blood and treasure we leave there.

If you're talking about the French, then no.

re: #106 Kenneth

You mean by the Iraqis? Yes. The Kurds are very pro-US, some of the Shia are pro-US, and slowly, some of the Sunnis are grudgingly accepting of the US. More importantly, they know only the US will protect them form their neighbours.

Kurds excepted. They are obviously not Arab.

We can bleed in Iraq for eternity, and still, at eternity plus one day the result will be a typical anti Western Arab country.

Islamic I think, good luck with that.

Qur'an 33:36, "It is not fitting for a Muslim man or woman to have any choice in their affairs when a matter has been decided for them by Allah and His Messenger. They have no option."

Did they miss Rosevelt? How about Kennedy? He did start that war in Vietnam.. (OK I mean the US intervention, the Commies started the war).

Are democrats getting an easy ride here?

re: #116 NGrove

I don't think we can realistically expect to win over the hearts and minds of all Iraqis. We can't do that in our own country. If Moveon.org had produced this commercial the only difference would be that some of their pet presidents would be left off the list. That they can produce something that goes against their governments policies with an "occupying" force in country says more for our success than our failure.

True, though I would like to take the producers of this on a tour of some of Saddam's old interrogation chambers and point out the industrial shredders they would have been fed feet first into if they had done this kind of thing when he was in power.

re: #122 Opinionated

I dissagree, but time will tell. My prediction: one day a statue of George W. Bush will stand in Baghdad. Mark my words.

re: #113 wolfie

The situation is not good. It is not hopeless, but it is not good.
Take Howard Zinn's book. The overwhleming majority of historians in academia, including many that assign it, know quite well that it is crap. But no one will dare to speak out against assigning it.
(I'm not talking about part-timers like me w/ no tenure, either. I'm talking about people who have nothing to lose but PC popularity.)

I used to belong to one of these la-de-da, hoity-toity "by invitation only" academic listserves, to which I was invited on account of my website being a Foundation. I well remember the outpourings of grief and the eulogies over the likes of Howard Fast and Morris U. Schappes (feel free to Google these names if you don't know who they are). When I dared to mention that maybe these guys didn't deserve so much honor because of their membership in the CPUSA, some of the moonbattier professors tried to get me thrown off the list.

I guess that shows that CNN is back in Iraq

George W. Bush 2001 till now – Thousands of dead and wounded in the invasion and occupation of Iraq, since 2001 to this day.

Looks like we missed a few.

/warmongering

~S~

Damm, that was funny

re: #116 NGrove

I don't think we can realistically expect to win over the hearts and minds of all Iraqis. We can't do that in our own country. If Moveon.org had produced this commercial the only difference would be that some of their pet presidents would be left off the list. That they can produce something that goes against their governments policies with an "occupying" force in country says more for our success than our failure.

You don't have to win over all the hearts and minds. Like in this country, there is not the need for everyone to think alike. But the point made by evidence since the Surge, the Anbar Awakening, and details from Yon's book, is that more and more Iraqi's are following the examples set by the Coalition forces, tired of the meddling by Iran and al-Qaeda, and seeing that they can bring their country out of the shithole that Saddam put them into.

This kind of propaganda likely happens a lot in Iraq....but will have as much influence on the people there as F9/11 had on those who think about 9/11. Only those already predisposed to be against the US will gravitate to it. The rest see it for the crap that it is or look at the source and know from that it is crap.

George W. Bush 2001 till now – Thousands of dead and wounded in the invasion and occupation of Iraq, since 2001 to this day.

We didn't invade Iraq in 2001.

re: #126 Kenneth

I dissagree, but time will tell. My prediction: one day a statue of George W. Bush will stand in Baghdad. Mark my words.

That would be something to behold. I hope you are right.

re: #75 Sarge1984

Well, I'm not wedded to my theory. I'm open to opposing arguments, and you make some good ones. I think a particularly strong one is that we shouldn't have remained friendly with Saddam, because he was an incredibly evil man. And I agree, he was one of the world's most despicable dictators. He tortured his own citizens just for fun. He gassed entire villages full of people to death. In a very basic moral sense, it's extremely disturbing that we would support such a man.

On the other hand, Saddam was a secular tyrant, and his natural enemies in the region were Islamists. We went after Saddam in 1991 in order to protect the interests of Saudi Arabia, whom Bush the first saw as an infinitely more important ally than Iraq. And the effect of the current war will ultimately be to hand at least part of Iraq over to the Islamist regime in Iran. It's true that Saddam had expansionist dreams, imagining himself as some sort of great unifying regional conquerer. But I think that Saudi Arabia and Iran pose a far greater threat not just to the region, but to all of human civilization.

Ultimately, my reason for seemingly siding with pragmatism over morality is based on the point on which I think we agree. Arab Muslim cultures are different from ours, and we (i.e. America) have fundamentally failed to understand that. We imagine that Arabs want what we want: peace, freedom, democracy, and prosperity. But by and large, that's not what Arabs want. Theirs are effectively medieval cultures that comprehend only violence and Islamic orthodoxy. They don't particularly care about democracy, freedom, or peace, and if that's what we're selling, they won't be buying.

The Saudi and Iranian regimes are approximately as ruthlessly oppressive as Saddam was, but, as extremist Islamist regimes, they're a lot more dangerous to the world.

re: #125 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

True, though I would like to take the producers of this on a tour of some of Saddam's old interrogation chambers and point out the industrial shredders they would have been fed feet first into if they had done this kind of thing when he was in power.

Could you take the moveon people with you as well? Since you're going anyway. I could loan you a generator for the shredders if you think more realism is warranted.

re: #127 Alouette

Isn't it amazing how many moonbat academics dislike real intellectual debate?

Bill Clinton 1993-2001 – An intensive missile attack on Iraq in 1998.

Not to be crude, but he carried out more launching on Monica than he did on Iraq.

re: #131 Athos

You don't have to win over all the hearts and minds. Like in this country, there is not the need for everyone to think alike. But the point made by evidence since the Surge, the Anbar Awakening, and details from Yon's book, is that more and more Iraqi's are following the examples set by the Coalition forces, tired of the meddling by Iran and al-Qaeda, and seeing that they can bring their country out of the shithole that Saddam put them into.

This kind of propaganda likely happens a lot in Iraq....but will have as much influence on the people there as F9/11 had on those who think about 9/11. Only those already predisposed to be against the US will gravitate to it. The rest see it for the crap that it is or look at the source and know from that it is crap.

I completely agree. Maybe my post didn't come across that way but that is the jist of what I meant to say. You just said it better.

re: #132 NoSubmission

We didn't invade Iraq in 2001.

Don't pester them with facts, NoSubmission... they're on an anti-America tirade!

Why you gotta rain sense or logic on the Amerikka-is-the-root-of-all-killing-and-evil-in-th e-world G.d-I-hate-it-IhateitIhateit parade? It takes the only joy these people have right out of their hearts when you do that.

/need I?

~S~

re: #127 Alouette

I used to belong to one of these la-de-da, hoity-toity "by invitation only" academic listserves, to which I was invited on account of my website being a Foundation. I well remember the outpourings of grief and the eulogies over the likes of Howard Fast and Morris U. Schappes (feel free to Google these names if you don't know who they are). When I dared to mention that maybe these guys didn't deserve so much honor because of their membership in the CPUSA, some of the moonbattier professors tried to get me thrown off the list.

Heretic! :O
But all I can say is you dared. You dared. The few who speak up, as you did, are the ones who give me a measure of hope.

re: #124 dak

Did they miss Rosevelt? How about Kennedy? He did start that war in Vietnam.. (OK I mean the US intervention, the Commies started the war).

Are democrats getting an easy ride here?

Point of order, Truman started US involvement in Vietnam by supporting the Fwench attempt to re-colonialize, including American equipment, uniforms, and vehicles. There was even a proposal (defeated, thank God) to re-arm the Japanese troops held there after the war ended to assist.

I'm surprised they don't list James K. Polk and his war against Mexico...

re: #126 Kenneth

I dissagree, but time will tell. My prediction: one day a statue of George W. Bush will stand in Baghdad. Mark my words.

Make it a small one, please.

re: #132 NoSubmission

We didn't invade Iraq in 2001.

No, but I think there's this whole bizarre propaganda thing the Arab world was peddling during the late Clinton and early Bush years, claiming that the U.S. was pumping secret poison gas into Iraq, poisoning the water and the vegetables, bombing stuff in the middle of the night with weird silent radioactive munitions and so forth. I've seen a number of Arab and moonbat blogs to that effect. Maybe that's what they meant.

re: #88 Kenneth

Then what are we to make of the "Sons of Iraq" and Anbar Awakening movements which have turned on the Islamists and are now allies of the US? The US is finally winning the ideological war. This particular TV station is the media outelt of the enemy factions -radical Islamists, very likely funded by Iran.

Those are the areas I referred to by "very good progress in a lot of areas."

I'm all about the Anbar Awakening--I've noted the new glass in store fronts more than once here. But we won't fully win until we truly overcome the cultural differences, and the people in all the neighborhoods (especially Sadr City) kick out or point out the insurgents; until they shine the lights in the dark corners and stop harboring them.

re: #136 Athos

Isn't it amazing how many moonbat academics dislike real intellectual debate?

Another of these commie-worshipping professors invited me to join another veddy exclusive listserve for "Jewish higher education professionals" which I subscribed for a very short time, it was like heavy-duty Kos for PhDs only. Anyway I'm not even a "higher education professional" and I only have a B.S. but they didn't know that cause I'm a freaking Foundation.

re: #98 Athos

I just finished reading Michael Yon's book. The impression I got from that is that we are making progress in making the changes to get an ideological 'win' in Iraq. The real responsibility for the change is the Iraqi's themselves and getting beyond the tribes, the corruption, Islam, and Iranian meddling to establish an Arab democracy in the region.

He makes a good case against not only withdrawal but also dropping a hammer on the people of Iraq.

Exactly. I haven't read his book, but I've read some of his work, and I think he's spot on.

Good Evening Lizards! It was warmer and partially sunny in the Very Far Western Suburbs of Chicagoland this day.

I noticed on the list above, next to each president the # of death listed in "thousands". I wonder how that compares to the 20th century tyrants?

How are you-all this evening and what are we talking about?

re: #142 moghedien

I'm surprised they don't list James K. Polk and his war against Mexico...

Yes! I was thinking the same thing! (GMTA!)
Polk seemed so obvious.

Sure this wasn't from the Daily Kos?

re: #9 Charles

This illustrates the US's real mistake in Iraq -- the military did its job wonderfully, but we've almost completely failed to manage the ideological front.

Well I see Opinionated #65 already said it bluntly, but let me try anyway - what does this mean, "manage the ideological front"? You mean, reform the Islamic religion and the Arab culture, reeducating an existing populace, or ... what? I guess the "educated" Euroweenie opinion was always that "you can't expect much from those savages", while George W. Bush decided they deserved a chance via Christian charity for peace.

So what do I suggest? I dunno. We know Dubya didn't want to do nation building, and I guess I agreed - at the time. Hindsight is so clear. And what do we do NOW? Sigh. I dunno. Nation-build, I guess, at rather great cost, though I still wonder if we couldn't get hold of the Iraqi oil revenues to pay for it.

re: #134 Last Mohican

On the other hand, Saddam was a secular tyrant, and his natural enemies in the region were Islamists.

Secular? Is that why after GW1 he started embracing Islam, building Sunni mosques, and even having a Qu'ran written in ink from his own blood? That type of assumption fits the same groupthink that says that Saddam would have never talked to al-Qaeda, sent his jets to Iran, etc. His natural enemies were anyone who stood against him and his bloodlust for wealth and power. I wouldn't be surprised if he felt himself a modern day Saladin......

We went after Saddam in 1991 in order to protect the interests of Saudi Arabia, whom Bush the first saw as an infinitely more important ally than Iraq.

We went to war to liberate an already ally - Kuwait and secondly to protect the oil fields of Kuwait, KSA, UAE, etc from Saddam's seizure which would have hurt us and crippled many of our allies. You show much of your bias with halfcocked claims like this.

And the effect of the current war will ultimately be to hand at least part of Iraq over to the Islamist regime in Iran.

Really? Which part? Basra? Where JAM took a beating primarily by the Iraqi government and forces - and now the Iraqi forces are the strong horse? Diyala? Let's see, what did Sistani have to say about JAM and Shia militias? Oh yes, he issued a fatwa that law comes from the Iraqi Government and they are the ones who need the guns. Will Iran keep meddling - yes, but it's a losing proposition for them if the US does not pre-maturely abandon Iraq.

We imagine that Arabs want what we want: peace, freedom, democracy, and prosperity. But by and large, that's not what Arabs want. Theirs are effectively medieval cultures that comprehend only violence and Islamic orthodoxy. They don't particularly care about democracy, freedom, or peace, and if that's what we're selling, they won't be buying.

The Sunni Awakening is disproving this other major misconception of yours. It's pretty arrogant of you to think that different people and cultures cannot and will not embrace freedom, liberty, and individual rights. If an ideology like nazism can be defeated then islamofascism can also be defeated. They just need to see which is stronger - physically and morally.

With analysis like this, I am starting to believe that you are a CIA analyst and an 'expert' in the region.

re: #134 Last Mohican

I think we're pretty much on the same page.

re: #148 ggt

The evil militarism of macho-man Carter, itty bitty statues of GW Bush, and Alouette kicking lefty butt.

It's called propaganda. Best we fight fire with fire. Voice of America anyone?

WTF?

I sure hope our tax dollars ar'nt helping to pay for this...

re: #116 NGrove

That's a + for you.

Mahdi Army Fades Away

April 28 , 2008: After a month of fighting, the Mahdi Army has disappeared from the streets of Basra, the largest city in the south. The army and police are everywhere, and people are providing information on where Mahdi Army personnel are hiding out, and the locations of their weapons caches. Up north, in the Sadr City section of east Baghdad, the Mahdi Army is still fighting hard. But the army and police have the upper hand, and are pushing the Shia militiamen back block by block. Mahdi Army leader Muqtada al Sadr has responded by threatening to order his men to go after American troops if the government does not back off. That's won't work, because the Mahdi Army is not particularly skillful, and not very united either. He recently ordered his troops to stop fighting Iraqi soldiers and police, and concentrate on the Americans. The Iraqi security forces have not reciprocated, and continue coming after the Mahdi Army.

re: #157 Sarge1984

That's a + for you.

Still, I think my moveon field trip suggestion was better LOL

re: #101 Opinionated

FWIW, I don't think it's important that they support the US when we leave. I think it's important that they have their freedom, that they enjoy a peaceful lifestyle, and that they're prosperous. I think it's important that they love their country, and believe in the better lifestyles they lead compared to when Saddam was in power, or compared to when AQI and the Mahdi Army was running amok.

"Masters of the White House?"

Is that anything like Masters of the Universe? HeeMan!

/80's cartoons stole my brain

re: #158 Geepers

How dare you report positive news in Iraq...off to the re-education camp with you. A few weeks of Mork and Mindy reruns will set you right.

re: #19 Last Mohican

We should have just politely told him he couldn't invade Kuwait

Hey Chingachkook, lay off the peyote.

re: #134 Last Mohican

"We imagine that Arabs want what we want: peace, freedom, democracy, and prosperity. But by and large, that's not what Arabs want. Theirs are effectively medieval cultures that comprehend only violence and Islamic orthodoxy."

I have to respectfully disagree. People are People. The average Yusef in the ME is not very different from the average Joe in the US. As one Lizard put it, he wants "his wife to stop charging up the credit cards, his lawnmower to start and his kids to play fewer video games." While not everyone in the ME has credit cards, lawnmowers or video games to worry about, I think the meaning is clear.

Arabs and Persians are not backward people. There have been times in recent history when the governments of Iran and Iraq were very different. Universities and Business thrived, women were not forced to wear "traditional" clothing. These memories are not lost on the present population.

When talking in general about people of the ME, please remember that two of the bloggers Charles links to at the top of the page are Iraqi. They and their fellow countrymen desperately want to live in a peaceful and stable modern country. Disprespecting their efforts does not help them.

Maybe they are just Deadheads?

Or, Hell's Angels backstage security?

It could all be an innocent mistake in some people's apparent glee in death.

Death is just the fine print of Life.

Oh crap. I get home, then see this... What was it about glass houses and stones? Have these people been hittin' that potent Afghani opium so hard they forgot who Saddam and his filthy sons were?

Jimmy Carter 1977-1981 – Sponsor of the Camp David Accords with the Zionist entity.

They forgot to add: violent oppressor of swamp bunnies

killer swamp bunny

This is a good illustration of the cultural differences.

re: #164 ggt

People are People. The average Yusef in the ME is not very different from the average Joe Moonbat in the US.

Fixed it for ya.

re: #169 sparrowlake

sorry, I don't agree.

But I thought these people liked bloodshed. You'd think they'd be admiring our handiwork!

/sarc

Just a coupe things here... They seem to have left the part out about Lincoln liberating countless slaves. Also, I think Clinton can be given credit for more deaths: Bosnia, Afghanistan, etc. The part with "(father)" next to Bush41 cracks me up.

These people really get away with this crap over there? I'd be curious to see what percentage of the population actually buys this line of bull.

(I notice that even on our enemies lists, Carter is portrayed as a pansy. Doesn't say much for Mr. Peanut does it?)

Mmm. Zionist n'titty.

re: #115 nyc redneck

they are embarrassed at the devastating defeat they suffered.

Excellent point.

re: #170 ggt

sorry, I don't agree.

Yusef hates America and Israel and he cums at the thought of all the Jews of Israel being slaughtered and pushed into the sea. He supports terror and murder of civilians as a legitimate political tactic.
He prays to Allah for the death of unbelievers. He treats women as second class citizens.
As for progressive forces in Iran and Iraq, Yusef has no use for them and he instead supports the Mullahs.
So you are right about Yusef not being like Moonbats - he makes them look like saints.

The music is the best. It looks like they watched T2 (an American movie no less) and got a few ideas.

If Iran is funding this prop, consider the timing. We are moving a carrier task force into the Persian Gulf this week. Are they preparing the Arab street (Iran is Persian, not Arab) for their possible first strike? Hmmmm?

re: #175 sparrowlake

So Michael Yon and all the soldiers and Marines who return from Iraq with an entirely different story are all lying?

re: #175 sparrowlake

Are you having a bad day or do you really feel that way?

re: #150 CheatyPantsMcSweatervest

Sure this wasn't from the Daily Kos?

I was thinking that. Kos or DU.

re: #175 sparrowlake

Yusef hates America and Israel and he cums at the thought of all the Jews of Israel being slaughtered and pushed into the sea. He supports terror and murder of civilians as a legitimate political tactic.
He prays to Allah for the death of unbelievers. He treats women as second class citizens.
As for progressive forces in Iran and Iraq, Yusef has no use for them and he instead supports the Mullahs.
So you are right about Yusef not being like Moonbats - he makes them look like saints.

I think you may be generalizing.

How about:

Mohammed: Pedofile, Rapist, Child Murderer, Murderer of millions of innocent people.

Wake up everybody. We are wasting our time there.

re: #183 shaker

In Iraq or with the a$$hole poster who seems to think that Arabs and Persians are lesser human beings?

re: #72 shibumi

Billions and Billions....
-Carl Sagan

re: #151 itellu3times

Well I see Opinionated #65 already said it bluntly, but let me try anyway - what does this mean, "manage the ideological front"?

It means not allowing anti-American propaganda like this to be broadcast in Iraq, it means not allowing sharia law to be part of the Iraqi constitution, and it means taking a much tougher line towards fanatics like Muqtada Al-Sadr.

yuk... i read IRANIAN telly first. now i re-read it. that's bad news.

Agree totally with Charles' last post about preventing the subversion of the new Iraq's modern constitution. But I think that dissent (the kind exhibited in this ad) SHOULD be allowed; only thing is, we should be doing more to promote the Western way. This includes subtitling The Chappelle Show, MTV etc.

Liberate millions under brutal dictatorship and get called a murderer.

Must have been a Saddam worshiper.

re: #183 shaker

Wake up everybody. We are wasting our time there.

I'm starting to feel it to...:(

And their point is ? ?

The right to run repulsive material on their TV stations is one of the things included in this package called "freedom" that we have granted them. That said, I think that if someone was to blow Iran to Hell, there'd be lots fewer repulsive things like this showing on Iraqi TV.

I agree with the posters on this thread that say that the US will never be accepted a friend by an Islamic nation. But if someone won't stop hating you, It's better that they be terrified of pissing you off. That, along with so many other reasons is why I'd like to see Iran militarily crushed. Pulverized. Humiliated. Theocracy Obliterated.

Here's the fundamental mind-set difference between warfare for us versus warfare for them: The western view of mercy is that it's noble. The middle-Eastern view of mercy is that it's a weakness to be exploited.

Charles is right. We (MacArthur) wrote the Japanese a new constitution after "big Mo" anchored in Yokohama harbor, that was based on Jeffersonian democracy (women's right to vote, etc.) and all has worked out well for both parties for 68 years now.

If we're not going to be conquerors after the blood and hundreds of billions invested, that's the least we can do - leave the horrid place better than we found it, on our terms.

If not, take the oil. We need it, we are already condemned for this anyway and, most importantly, it sends the clearest signal to the Arab street of US intent/resolve/power - he who has the oil, won the war.

That they understand beyond all else, for about 1400 years now. It's that, or else assist us in promoting an ideology that will lead to mutual success.

Insulting your liberator and benefactor is unacceptable - make it stand, and if censorship is required to do so at this juncture, so be it!

re: #103 marjoriemoon

Plus Pres. Nixon withdrew US troops from Vietnam by 1973. It was LBJ who sent 500,000 Americans to fight in Vietnam. A Democrat.... Democrats have always taken America to war and it has always been the Republican presidents who have ended wars

re: #186 Charles

It means not allowing anti-American propaganda like this to be broadcast in Iraq, it means not allowing sharia law to be part of the Iraqi constitution, and it means taking a much tougher line towards fanatics like Muqtada Al-Sadr.

Then you're a cultural imperialist lizard.

And I'm another.

It is best to be both feared and loved; however, if one cannot be both it is better to be feared than loved.

So really, as long as they fear us enough to not undermine us, I couldn't give a rat's ass about this nonsense.

re: #171 shimra

But I thought these people liked bloodshed. You'd think they'd be admiring our handiwork!

/sarc

Exactamundo.

Or at least they'd worry a little more about being next, rather than justifying themselves at the mouth of our artillery.

/nosarc

re: #164 ggt

"We imagine that Arabs want what we want: peace, freedom, democracy, and prosperity. But by and large, that's not what Arabs want. Theirs are effectively medieval cultures that comprehend only violence and Islamic orthodoxy."

I have to respectfully disagree. People are People.

People may be people, who can argue with that? But people have diverse cultures. It is a long-time liberal romantic myth that all people, in a state of nature, will live peacefully kumbuya. It was Edmund Burke's response 250 years ago that actually, life in a state of nature is nasty, brutish, and short.

The question of just what Arabs want is a valid question, and the answer is, at best, not obvious. After all, look at them trying to figure out what *we* want. Apparently, they really, truly, do not understand.

They overlooked Millard Fillmore- (1800-1874)- who married a redhead, practiced law in Buffalo, and was Comptroller of New York before becoming President and appointing Daniel Webster Secretary of State!

Oh, the humanity!

Charles (#186),

It means not allowing anti-American propaganda like this to be broadcast in Iraq,

Just out of curiosity how would we go about accomplishing that?

re: #39 NGrove

That's pretty weak. Who researched that and missed FDR or even our founding fathers? I guess my question for MEMRI would be... What's your point? At least our leaders tend to go after people who are armed.

I think you misunderstand MEMRI TV's purpose....They show us what ridiculous things are happening on TV in the middle east. They are based in the US, and provide useful translations of things that we would not otherwise know. They are not the producers, they are merely giving wider distribution so that we may be aware of these things. From their webiste:

"The Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) is an independent, non-profit organization providing translations of the Middle East media and original analysis and research on developments in the region."

Masters of the Ummah- Leaders and Caliphs of Islam

mohammed 570-632- “The Slaughterer of Jews ” – Annihilation of hundreds of Jewish tribe members.

Umayyads 7th-8th century- Threatening the Persian empire with the islamic jihad.

Ali ibn Abu Talib 599-661- The first fitna. Thousands of dead and wounded.

Abbasids 8th-13th century- More fitna. Thousands of dead and wounded.

Saladin 1137—1138- The 1187 battle for Jerusalem and Hattin. Thousands executed.

Mehmed II 1432-1481- The Ottoman intervention in Constantinople on May 29, 1453.

Suleiman 1520–1566- The beginning of the islamic expansion of Europe.

Murad IV 1612-1640- Sending countless Ottoman soldiers to invade Baghdad.

Mehmed Talat 1874-1921- Sponsored the arrest of Armenian leaders leading to mass deportations and genocide.

Muammar Abu Minyar al-Gaddafi 1942- present- Supporting the 1988 terroris attack on Pan Am flight 103.

Saddam Hussein 1937-2006- Leader the coalition that invaded Kuwait in 1990.

Saddam Hussein 1937-2006- An intensive missile attack on Israel in 1991.

Osama bin Laden 1957-?- Thousands of dead and wounded in the attacks of September 11, 2001 and ongoing to this day.

I guess they forgot Korea....lol

Kicking oppressive arses all over the world. Yup! Death to islamofacists everywhere.

#200 Geepers: 4

Charles (#186),

It means not allowing anti-American propaganda like this to be broadcast in Iraq,

Just out of curiosity how would we go about accomplishing that?

Simple! Take the oil we liberated, if they are unwilling to "go along to get along" in mutual interest. We're holding the trumps. We don't move carrier task forces just for the exercise.
Sounds tough? Well, since 9/11/01, yes, life is tough for those that have and are attacking us. We had better reinforce this notion with resolve, actions, and media reinforcements. Unless we want decades of this mess to continue.

Al-Rafidein TV sounds like Pacifica Radio and to a lesser extent, NPR.

Just sayin'.

re: #202 Sharmuta

You could probably triple that out of Oriana Fallaci's books, not to mention from a history of Palestine 1918-1948.

But, as Bill Murray once said in a somewhat different context, it just doesn't matter. VDH says we in the west got where we are, by being better killers. Let's go with what we know, and let Allah sort it out.

re: #206 itellu3times

I could have been much more extensive, I know. I just wanted to rewrite their bullet points. I could write a book on islamic imperialism, but someone already did- good read, too.

re: #207 Sharmuta

I could have been much more extensive, I know. I just wanted to rewrite their bullet points. I could write a book on islamic imperialism, but someone already did- good read, too.

Well, I'll put it on the list, but getting more detailed knowledge of the history of Islam, once you get the gist, seems like a waste of time.

Heck, I've still never opened the copy of Eurabia I finally got.

re: #208 itellu3times

Furthering our knowledge and understanding is never a waste of time.

re: #55 Kenneth

Hamas hates Egyptian gov't for signing the Camp David Accords. That's why the Islamists assassinated Sadat.

Sadats' dat!

re: #209 Sharmuta

Furthering our knowledge and understanding is never a waste of time.

Oh I agree, but my stack is large, contains several subjects, and some others have priority.

re: #125 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

True, though I would like to take the producers of this on a tour of some of Saddam's old interrogation chambers and point out the industrial shredders they would have been fed feet first into if they had done this kind of thing when he was in power.

If he sorta liked ya he feed you head first int the shredder.

re: #198 itellu3times

The Japanese culture at the end of WW2 was far, far more hostile to democracy than the contemporary Arab culture.

Japan was for centuries an isolated island, society had a strict social hierarchy. Here's an anecdote that demonstrates how foreign any concept of human rights were: samurai tested out a new sword by slicing someone. If the sword did not cut cleanly through the body in one blow, it was discarded. The emperor, as you know, was a god. Japan never had anything in their history conducive to democracy.

Now, let's look at the Arab culture. I cite none other than Bernard Lewis.
"In thinking about these two views, it is helpful to step back and consider what Arab and Islamic society was like once and how it has been transformed in the modern age. The idea that how that society is now is how it has always been is totally false. The dictatorship of Saddam Hussein in Iraq or the Assad family in Syria or the more friendly dictatorship of Mubarak in Egypt--all of these have no roots whatsoever in the Arab or in the Islamic past. Let me quote to you from a letter written in 1786--three years before the French Revolution--by Mssr. Count de Choiseul-Gouffier, the French ambassador in Istanbul, in which he is trying to explain why he is making rather slow progress with the tasks entrusted to him by his government in dealing with the Ottoman government. "Here," he says, "things are not as in France where the king is sole master and does as he pleases." "Here," he says, "the sultan has to consult." He has to consult with the former holders of high offices, with the leaders of various groups and so on."

[Link: www.realclearpolitics.com...]

The Arab nations can, and must, become democracies. It will be long, it will be bloody, and it will be thankless. But it must be done.

re: #202 Sharmuta

Nice work.

What parasitical scum

I found it noteworthy that the Islamists used the theme music from Terminator 2. I would bet they didn't pay royalties for it. Suing the station would seem a good way to disrupt their operations a bit. Though the music did give me a moment of joyful fantasy imagining a group of T-800s set upon a crowd of Islamists. [evil grin]

Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826) - read the Koran to understand the nature of his enemy and then sent a squadron from the fledgling U.S. Navy across the Atlantic to fight the Islamic ("Barbary") pirates in the Mediterranean region who were raiding and plundering U.S. ships and enslaving their captive crews.

(This conflict continued into the presidency of Madison, who replied to one pirate leader, Dey Omar, who tried to extort "tribute", or jizya payments from the U.S.:
"The United States, whilst they wish for war with no nation, will buy peace with none [because though] ... peace is better than war, war is better than tribute..")

re: #217 profitsbeard

What a powerful quote. I need to read more. Thanks profitsbeard.

re: #213 laxmatt1984

The Japanese culture at the end of WW2 was far, far more hostile to democracy than the contemporary Arab culture.

False. The Japanese had been copying from the west, principally France and Russia, since Perry. Not to mention baseball.

Now, let's look at the Arab culture. I cite none other than Bernard Lewis.[Link: www.realclearpolitics.com...]

Read further down, when he gets to Wahhab.

The Arab nations can, and must, become democracies. It will be long, it will be bloody, and it will be thankless. But it must be done.

Long, bloody, ... so just who do you think is driving this truck? Do you think they want it? Do you think we can make them want it, via our good example?

It would be a lovely outcome, but even in your own words, it doesn't sound like something for which we should be holding our breath.

re: #219 itellu3times

Long, bloody, ... so just who do you think is driving this truck? Do you think they want it? Do you think we can make them want it, via our good example?

It would be a lovely outcome, but even in your own words, it doesn't sound like something for which we should be holding our breath.

"Democracies" are only as good as the ideology of the "demos" (people).

If the belief system remains Islam, there will be no improvement by merely changing the windowdressing (method of its implementation).

Because, whether it stays the present way: by the fiat of a despotic strongman/dictator or is forced into something "new": by the fiat of a population of theocratically-brainwashed and submissive "believers" (in a despotic and dictatorial concept like Islam) the result will be the same: intolerant irrationality.

Before "democracy" has any meaning, the current Muslims need secular freedoms, enshrined in a Bill of Rights.

Which will mean they will have to cease being what is now understood as "Muslim".

And the sooner it happens, the safer the rest of humanity will be.

re: #217 profitsbeard

Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826) - read the Koran to understand the nature of his enemy and then sent a squadron from the fledgling U.S. Navy across the Atlantic to fight the Islamic ("Barbary") pirates in the Mediterranean region who were raiding and plundering U.S. ships and enslaving their captive crews.

(This conflict continued into the presidency of Madison, who replied to one pirate leader, Dey Omar, who tried to extort "tribute", or jizya payments from the U.S.:
"The United States, whilst they wish for war with no nation, will buy peace with none [because though] ... peace is better than war, war is better than tribute..")

Too bad none of ours in office, or running can read or wish to do so. They are too smart to actually understand anything.

Al Rafidain TV belongs to Muslim "scholars and scientists" and shows the opinion of Sunna people against the American occupation of Iraq.

Such kind of lists originate in the German left and have been frequently used since 9/11 by them as well as by the extreme right. The ideology behind is that capitalism (and freedom) leads to war and imperialism. They argue that communism had been the most peaceful ideology ever (not kidding).

You can see such a list here and notice the date (10/19/2001)

The website "Friedenspolitischer Ratschlag der Uni Kassel" (Policy Advise for Peace at the University of Kassel) is a "network for peace studies" of "scholars" in Germany who have been and are still communists. The magazine this list comes from ("Freitag") is one of the leading left wing magazines in Germany. Have I to mention that they are admirer of Chomsky and that they hate the USA and Israel?

New are only the disgusting pictures which are used in the clip.

re: #211 itellu3times

Oh I agree, but my stack is large, contains several subjects, and some others have priority.

Same here, but I'm still interested in the stack growing.

re: #214 MilkOfMalfeasance

Nice work.

Thanks.

re: #9 Charles

This illustrates the US's real mistake in Iraq -- the military did its job wonderfully, but we've almost completely failed to manage the ideological front.

Charles, I disagree. I think them taking the time shows it is working better than imagined. They are making such strong effort to even address the issue that it warrants them to take the time, effort, and expense, to produce this fine piece of revisionist mystic based propaganda. This is a sign of great concern and distress for the Mullahs.

I'm flattered by this piece of video propaganda. I rather enjoyed it. They should fear us if they won't respect us.

Best Regards to the Mullahs,

From Egfrow
Citizen of the Great Satan.

Gee, the TV guy must have been a member of the Obamanation's church. He probably wrote this material.

As for the quote cited by itellu3times, it is from philosopher Thomas Hobbes, not Burke.

The full quote from the Leviathan:

"Whatsoever therefore is consequent to a time of Warre, where every man is Enemy to every man; the same is consequent to the time, wherein men live without other security, than what their own strength, and their own invention shall furnish them withall. In such condition, there is no place for Industry; because the fruit thereof is uncertain; and consequently no Culture of the Earth; no Navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by Sea; no commodious Building; no Instruments of moving, and removing such things as require much force; no Knowledge of the face of the Earth; no account of Time; no Arts; no Letters; no Society; and which is worst of all, continuall feare, and danger of violent death; And the life of man, solitary, poore, nasty, brutish, and short."

re: #6 zombie

Scroll down to

No Escape From Moonbattery on Campus

and you'll see proof that the thought control is real in our schools and campuses.

[Link: www.moonbattery.com...]

I don't have time to read all the comment, but I was thinking, that this list would scare me if I was on the wrong side.

Can't wait till the People's History of the United States hits the big screen later this year, thanks to Matt Damon and good ol' Aragorn...

re: #113 wolfie

The situation is not good. It is not hopeless, but it is not good.
Take Howard Zinn's book. The overwhleming majority of historians in academia, including many that assign it, know quite well that it is crap. But no one will dare to speak out against assigning it.
(I'm not talking about part-timers like me w/ no tenure, either. I'm talking about people who have nothing to lose but PC popularity.)

re: #145 Sarge1984

I don't know if you will get this message (Friday morning) but I heartily agree with you. And if I take it from what you wrote, you are/were in Iraq doing the hard work, then my hat's off to you.

Thank you for your service.

Wow, I didn't know Jeremiah Wright had time to write Iraqi TV commercial copy as a sideline.

Things must be going better in Iraq. They had to use ketchup to splatter the presidential seal. Couldn't even find real blood.

Why is it that they didn't put FDR on the list? Is it because he saved the Arabs' asses from a Hitler/Mussolini that viewed arabs and muslims as inferior? Was the "D" in "FDR" for "dhimmi?" Or was it that he was as fascist as the islamic radicals who produced this "PSA" for Iraqi TV?

Abraham Lincoln 1861-1865 – The American Civil War. Thousands of dead and wounded.

Thousands is a bit of an understatement, methinks.

cosmo, maybe they couldn't figure out the whole middle name thing for FDR.

Sheesh, how did Nixon end up getting the credit for the invasion of Vietnam?

Zinn can rot in Hell.

I'd like to know what the tally in the name of islam is.
Has anyone ever counted that high?
Makes Pol Pot look like Mother Teresa, is my guess.

re: #233 cosmo

Why is it that they didn't put FDR on the list? Is it because he saved the Arabs' asses from a Hitler/Mussolini that viewed arabs and muslims as inferior? Was the "D" in "FDR" for "dhimmi?" Or was it that he was as fascist as the islamic radicals who produced this "PSA" for Iraqi TV?

If memory serves me, it was the muslims that were playing the role of "dhimmi" for hitler. They jumped on board with his murderous spree, no?

re: #19 Last Mohican

I'm sticking by my thesis: Saddam Hussein was one of the best friends the U.S. had in the Middle East. Turning against him at the start of the first Gulf War was our big mistake. We should have just politely told him he couldn't invade Kuwait, back when we had that kind of leverage.

I don't think the ideological front can be won in an Arab Muslim country.

You are absolutely right. It cannot be won. Even when the facts hit them right between their eyes, they will believe what they want to believe. No matter how much we do or have done to help the Muslim world, they will always spin the truth to say that America is criminal and an enemy to Islam. American foreign policy, be it Republican OR Democrat, is something they LOVE to rail against. But the media here in America, including Fox News, is always asking what we can do to improve our image in the Muslim world. I get so tired of hearing that crap! Well guess what folks? We can't! Even if we dropped our support for Israel (which we never will) they will find some other reason to hate us. So let's quit trying and just do what we need to do.

I don't get it. They condemn American presidents for making war, except Jimmy (khhhhhhk, ptoo!) Carter, whom they condemn for making peace. Really, there's just no pleasing some people.

re: #237 WHIFF

You may be right. Of course, all the Zionist-led allied leaders wanted was to carve up the Arab world for their imperialist desires, right?

re: #239 Morganfrost

And Reagan gets credit for some crap in Lebanon in 1982---not ARMING the assholes in Afghanistan during the whole damn decade (not to mention arming Saddam in the war vs. Iran). No pleasing some people indeed. Following their logic, there really is only one solution. Except that Americans don't deal in solutions with the word "final" in front of them. That's the propriety of the far left fascists and national socialists.

I wonder why Iraqis, who have seen so many people in their country die at the hands of the U.S./U.K. occupation, would view the American government in such a way.

re: #242 justiceforall

I wonder why Iraqis, who have seen so many people in their country die at the hands of the U.S./U.K. occupation, would view the American government in such a way.

I wonder why you continue to post idiotic things like this, even when you've been exposed as a fool?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

re: #242 justiceforall

I wonder why Iraqis, who have seen so many people in their country die at the hands of the car bombing jihadist, Saudis, and other islamic foreign fighters, would view the Islam at all.

In fact I wonder why Iraqis, who were liberated from a tyrant by the U.S./U.K. liberation forces, and are protected from the jihadist would view the American government in such a way.

As the saying goes: "Another one, just like the other one."

I vote yes.

re: #244 Buck

In fact I wonder why Iraqis, who were liberated from a tyrant by the U.S./U.K. liberation forces, and are protected from the jihadist would view the American government in such a way.

That's an easy one. The Iraqis are Muslim. Everything they do is done through the lens of Islam. Muslims are commanded by the Quran (or Hadith, I forget which) to (paraphrased) "take no friends from the unbelievers" and "smile while inwardly our hearts curse them (the unbelievers)". So long as Islam holds sway in Iraq they will never be real friends with us, just like Saudi Arabia or Egypt. Sure, they'll take our blood and treasure, but since the jizya is their just and due right as Muslims it is nothing they will (or can) be thankful for.

Didn't read all the comments. Someone probably has already stated this but........

I do not see James Madison, FDR or JFK listed for example.

Madison's military killed British during 1812.....
FDR's military killed many WWII Germans, Italians, Japanese etc....
JFK continued Viet Nam after IKE AND before LBJ were involved there.....

C'mon Iran! You gotta get all of our eeeevil imperialists.

Give me a break

re: #238 Proud to be an Infidel

exactly...
What makes the ideological struggle in the Middle East so difficult to win is that Islamic extremists are sociopathic and psychotic to the point that they are willing to blow up their fellow citizens in markets and public spaces. Compounding this problem is the reluctance of moderate Muslims to speak out and rein in their extremist neighbors. The only thing we can do is stick it through long enough to incorporate Iraq into the global economy. Maybe once that happens the Muslims will see that the Western lifestyle isn't too shabby.

WOW. That is low!... Pisses me off! Ungrateful bastards!

On a more sober note: Paul Bremer messed it up and gave broadcasting licences to every schmock who wanted one. BIG Mistake. (Not the only one, disbanding the Iraqi Armi was the mistake that cost most American lives - I rely on Michael Yon's testimony here.)

After WW II the press in Germany was thoroughly checked for Nazis before the Allies let Germans have their own press again. Worked just fine. Catapulted the brightest and most freedom loving journalists to the top. Damn, you Americans DO piss me off at times, cause history is an open book, laying open for those willing to read... Ah, nevermind most people of my country don't give a damn about history either... that's why we all in Europe constantly proclaim: "Islam is peace! The US and Israel are the true threat to world peace".... Arrgh

I give up. People are just stupid. Left or right of the Atlantic, it don't matter. At least u guys have the 2nd amendment.

Wow. That is some nice CGI at the end. Where do they get the funding?

re: #45 barere

James Cameron should sue the pants off 'em.

What idiots.