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A Lone Creationist at UC Berkeley

Wed, May 7, 2008 at 9:54:02 am PDT

Zomblog has photos of a creationist inspired by Ben Stein’s movie Expelled, bringing Ben’s message to the heathens at UC Berkeley: Here come the pro-Expelled demonstrations.

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1388 comments

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1 SemperHunden  Wed, May 7, 2008 9:54:43am

Look at that picture, how the people are just laughing at him.

2 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 9:55:11am

Amen.

3 MrSilverDragon  Wed, May 7, 2008 9:55:29am

Now I've got the lyrics "One is the loneliest number that you'll ever do..." stuck in my head.

4 Venezuela lover  Wed, May 7, 2008 9:56:02am

Meet your maker in under 5 seconds. Does he have gun?

5 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 7, 2008 9:56:51am

I wonder how long the 5 seconds guy stood out there. Hours?

6 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 7, 2008 9:57:17am

Well, he's in good company at UC Berkley with all the 9-11 Troofers and global warming fearmongers there.

7 Living4Him5534  Wed, May 7, 2008 9:57:47am

Oh, those wacky Creationists. Don't they know science and reason has already solved everything? They should go back to their holes!

/Creationist

8 alegrias  Wed, May 7, 2008 9:57:48am

At least he's not bitter or clinging.
And his sign is grammatically correct and neat and articulate, which is more than I can say for other people's signs.

9 TalkinKamel  Wed, May 7, 2008 9:57:49am

Hardly surprising. There's lunacy, and to spare, at U.C. Berkley.

10 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 9:58:10am

re: #6 Honorary Yooper

Well, he's in good company at UC Berkley with all the 9-11 Troofers and global warming fearmongers there.

Well then, I suppose I would be in good company with them too. :)

Altho I have to say it would be rather odd. ...... lol

11 medaura18586  Wed, May 7, 2008 9:58:11am

Zombie, if you are reading this, know that I responded to your email. I hope you can find it in the big stack you got.

12 Ben Hur  Wed, May 7, 2008 9:58:18am
The story behind my presence on the U.C. campus adds another bizarre dimension to the scene. I had gotten a tip that the group “Students for Justice in Palestine” was going to set up a “checkpoint” near Sproul Plaza to force passing students to experience what life is purportedly like in the West Bank — as SJP’s way of marking the “Nakba,” the Arabic word for “catastrophe” that is used in Palestine to describe the founding of Israel. But when I showed up, no faux-checkpoints were to be found — only this table for the Muslim Students Association. I guess I either missed the action, or the whole event had been cancelled.

They wouldn't know what to do because none of them have ever been there.

(and I have manned check points)

13 Pater Coop  Wed, May 7, 2008 9:59:35am

Are those 5 seconds measured by man or by God?

14 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:01:33am

It's also worth noting, he's not advocating for science or proving a theory. He's protesting against atheists.

15 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:01:47am

He's making three statements here:

1. That he can offer proof in 5 seconds. I doubt that one.

2. That God made the heavens and the earth. No argument there.

3. That Jesus can provide restoration and healing to a soul. Again, no argument from me.

so two out of three IMO

16 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:02:17am

On the postive side, I'm fairly sure he was screaming obscenities and smelled a lot better than the average Berkeley protestor

17 solomonpanting  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:02:18am
The story behind my presence on the U.C. campus adds another bizarre dimension to the scene. I had gotten a tip that the group “Students for Justice in Palestine” was going to set up a “checkpoint” near Sproul Plaza to force passing students to experience what life is purportedly like in the West Bank — as SJP’s way of marking the “Nakba,” the Arabic word for “catastrophe” that is used in Palestine to describe the founding of Israel. But when I showed up, no faux-checkpoints were to be found — only this table for the Muslim Students Association. I guess I either missed the action, or the whole event had been cancelled.

A good metaphor for the "catasprophe" suffered by the Palestinians.

18 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:02:46am
19 laxmatt1984  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:03:34am

Usually the 5 second argument is "you are here, therefore god made you". (or some variation of the first cause argument.)

20 Pastorius  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:04:19am

Nutty Lone Christian Giving Speeches At University

Breaking: Dog Bites Man

21 jamsler  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:05:25am

Here it comes. Time to beat up on the zealot.
But....
If you disagree with him he's not going to behead you.

Activate your IFF, folks!

22 winston06  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:05:29am

Land of the moonbats

23 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:05:52am

re: #18 buzzsawmonkey

Mama! Glad to see you back! I was worried about you.

PS: No more dog poems, unless you ask for them.

Hi Buzz! I loved your dog poems! I've been busy starting to train my new pup, Cubbie - whom I officially adopted yesterday. Also I've been having a lot of trouble with my hands the last few days - my left hand is totally useless. ack - hard to type :(

How are you doing, my friend ?

24 Vergeltung  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:06:11am

where's the fossil record of the failed instances of genetic mutations along the way. must be some, no?

(that ought to kick start this thread. mu-wahahah!) :)

25 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:07:06am

re: #15 mama winger

He's making three statements here:

1. That he can offer proof in 5 seconds. I doubt that one.

2. That God made the heavens and the earth. No argument there.

3. That Jesus can provide restoration and healing to a soul. Again, no argument from me.

so two out of three IMO

His top line request: "give me just five seconds" probably worked well to grab some attention.

26 Pastorius  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:07:15am

"Frank Says" is actually on subject for once:

frank says:

The essence of Christianity is told us in the Garden of Eden history. The fruit that was forbidden was on the tree of knowledge. The subtext is, All the suffering you have is because you wanted to find out what was going on. You could be in the Garden of Eden if you had just kept your mouth shut and hadn't asked any questions. -- Playboy Interview, April 1993

27 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:08:39am

re: #26 Pastorius

The essence of Christianity is told us in the Garden of Eden history. The fruit that was forbidden was on the tree of knowledge. The subtext is, All the suffering you have is because you wanted to find out what was going on. You could be in the Garden of Eden if you had just kept your mouth shut and hadn't asked any questions.


Way off target. But that's a whole nuther kettle of fish, eh ? :)

28 Muadib  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:09:52am

Five seconds. Impressive.

29 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:09:52am

Is this really going to be another "Creationists are knuckledraggers" thread?

30 BulgarWheat  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:09:56am

re: #27 mama winger

How are you Mama? Another day, another kick in the teeth.

We were told this was coming.

Oh well. God Bless you!

31 FoolsMate  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:10:09am

He's 0 for 3. In baseball we call that a strikeout.

32 Living4Him5534  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:10:16am

re: #26 Pastorius

Wow, yes, that is definitely the very soul of Christianity.

Deep, very deep.

Sometimes I wonder how much separates some conservatives from liberals, because they seem to share they same snide comments and disregard for people of faith... I guess it's the guns, money, and government involvement.

33 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:10:46am

re: #29 LanceKates

Is this really going to be another "Creationists are knuckledraggers" thread?

No worries. I have nothing to prove.

34 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:11:17am

re: #33 mama winger

Oh, nor do I. It is just sad to see it coming from all sides.

35 BulgarWheat  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:11:34am

re: #33 mama winger

Me either. I'm with you.

36 Charles  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:11:52am

By the way, there is nothing essentially "Christian" about creationism. The Catholic Church, for example, has specifically renounced creationism (and intelligent design) and stated that Darwin's theory of evolution is not opposed to Christian faith.

37 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:11:52am

re: #30 BulgarWheat

How are you Mama? Another day, another kick in the teeth.

We were told this was coming.

Oh well. God Bless you!

Hi Bulgar! I am hating my lupus lately - it is robbing me of the use of my hands. Damn that Fall ! :) hehe

38 Ma Sands  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:11:58am

re: #23 mama winger

Oh, mama.....I wish I could give you mine --and all my health, too.....

39 Vergeltung  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:12:09am

re: #29 LanceKates

Is this really going to be another "Creationists are knuckledraggers" thread?

dude that's why I threw out my post above re the fossil record), as some bait. let's see where it goes...

40 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:12:32am

re: #36 Charles

By the way, there is nothing essentially "Christian" about creationism. The Catholic Church, for example, has specifically renounced creationism (and intelligent design) and stated that Darwin's theory of evolution is not opposed to Christian faith.

Good for them.

I'll believe as I like.

41 FoolsMate  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:12:38am

re: #32 Living4Him5534

You haven't seen snide comments, disregard, and condescension until you've seen the treatment atheists get from evangelists and fundies.

42 BulgarWheat  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:13:17am

re: #37 mama winger

I hope you're feeling better soon! That sucks! I'll include you into the Wheat household prayers for you and your wonderful son tonight!

43 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:13:22am

re: #38 Ma Sands

Oh, mama.....I wish I could give you mine --and all my health, too.....

{Ma}

I welcome the suffering. It keeps me humble and dependent.

44 Pastorius  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:13:33am

#27 Mama Winger,

Yeah, I'm not saying I agree with Frank. I'm just saying he's on subject.

For the record, it doesn't matter to me whether a person believes in God or not. I'm with Dennis Prager; there are only two types of people, the decent and the indecent.

45 Vergeltung  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:13:45am

re: #41 FoolsMate

such a heavy burden to bear for not believing anything.

46 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:13:52am

re: #42 BulgarWheat

I hope you're feeling better soon! That sucks! I'll include you into the Wheat household prayers for you and your wonderful son tonight!

Thank you so much - He and I do appreciate it.

47 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:14:03am

re: #41 FoolsMate

You haven't seen snide comments, disregard, and condescension until you've seen the treatment atheists get from evangelists and fundies.

Wholly disagree.

48 irish rose  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:14:03am

re: #29 LanceKates

Only if you want it to be.

49 Pastorius  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:14:37am

#32,
That's Frank Zappa's opinion, not mind.

50 BulgarWheat  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:14:37am

re: #39 Vergeltung

God doesn't wear a Rolex. Just like time zones, he MAY be on an entirely different time zone. Just a thought....

51 chinesearithmetic  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:14:52am

6 Mississippi! 7 Mississippi!

52 opnion  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:14:58am

People of faith should not be mocked & disrespected.
However noone should shove their faith into others faces.

53 just another four-letter word  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:14:59am

Look, you can't blame the guy for trying!

And, somebody please tell me why he's a "crackpot"...

JAFLW

54 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:15:32am

re: #44 Pastorius

#27 Mama Winger,

I'm with Dennis Prager; there are only two types of people, the decent and the indecent.

Yes.

My son, interestingly enough, is reading a book by Dennis Prager now on anti-semitism for a research paper on anti-semitism and the Lutheran Church. Should be a toe-tapper, as he goes to a Lutheran college/seminary.

56 Ma Sands  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:15:38am

re: #43 mama winger

Yeah.....in some ways, I guess it might be easier than internal, too.....

57 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:15:43am
58 paxnhymn  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:15:58am

re: #14 Killgore Trout

It's also worth noting, he's not advocating for science or proving a theory. He's protesting against atheists.

no. Actually, That's NOt worth noting...

:-D

59 BulgarWheat  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:16:02am

re: #41 FoolsMate

You've obviously missed some of the earlier threads. It's cool. Not tossing any bombs today or previously.

I'm not going to change anyone's mind today and I understand that.

Have a good day!

60 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:16:34am

re: #48 irish rose

Only if you want it to be.

And this is my fault... how?

Are you suggesting that by believing in Creationism, I'm somehow responsible for the inability of people who believe in evolution to insult, degrade and berate me?

It is like dealing with someone who is anti-smoking. They can't stand by and let you do as you wish, they HAVE to tell you why you're wrong and stupid and evil.

61 Living4Him5534  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:16:48am

re: #41 FoolsMate

Yes, every conversation I had in the Marines where I was mocked for my faith I made sure to shed a tear for all the times I saw atheists getting browbeaten... oh wait...

And Charles, just because the Catholic Church does it, doesn't mean that it's A.) good B.) right or C.) in the Bible.

62 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:17:01am

re: #59 BulgarWheat

Big freaking Ot.
Lay under this bus, NOW

lolololol

63 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:17:19am
64 BulgarWheat  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:17:24am

re: #55 BabbaZee

Babba! I've missed you today! Damn BIG BUSINESS has been stealing all my LGF time.

WE"RE BEING RIPPED OFF BY BIG BUSINESS!

Heil five!

65 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:17:29am

re: #52 opnion

People of faith should not be mocked & disrespected.
However noone should shove their faith into others faces.

Can we chat about it though? I promise not to ring your bell.

66 Pastorius  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:17:30am

#54 Mama Winger,

I've read Prager on the origin of anti-Semitism. Interestinly enough, that's one subject I do NOT agree with him on.

67 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:17:59am

re: #64 BulgarWheat

Heil Five!
I'm being ripped off by big tiredness. LOL

68 Vergeltung  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:18:08am

re: #50 BulgarWheat

God doesn't wear a Rolex. Just like time zones, he MAY be on an entirely different time zone. Just a thought....

eh? you lost me on that one.... :)

69 Kirly  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:18:11am

re: #29 LanceKates

Is this really going to be another "Creationists are knuckledraggers" thread?

yeah. is it?

the more threads like these, the more i see many lizards hate me and hate my faith. never a good reason why though as i have never done them any harm.

i guess i'm just sick of those evangelical atheists (thanks to Crusader Rabbit for the term).

whatever. have at it. make fun of the people who believe in God and that He is so onmipotent that He could create everything you percieve and more in the blink of His eye. i'll check in later to see who has decided i'm an idiot/fool/whatever term you prefer for the day.

Just know one thing you nonbelievers... if i'm right, you'll be alone for eternity and i'll be in Heaven with God. if i'm wrong, then i've lived a good life and not harmed you in any way. Make your choice.

70 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:18:24am

re: #57 buzzsawmonkey

Congratulations on the new pup; what kind is s/he? "Custom blend," or something identifiable?

A mixed bag of lovable floof. I am going to have a DNA rest run on him next week probably. Just to see what I'm up against :)

71 irish rose  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:18:26am

re: #60 LanceKates

And this is my fault... how?

Are you suggesting that by believing in Creationism, I'm somehow responsible for the inability of people who believe in evolution to insult, degrade and berate me?

It is like dealing with someone who is anti-smoking. They can't stand by and let you do as you wish, they HAVE to tell you why you're wrong and stupid and evil.

I didn't suggest anything.
Have a nice day.

72 jamsler  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:18:27am

re: #41 FoolsMate

Do the evangelists and fundies behead them?

73 Roger  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:18:30am

Saying God created the heavens and the earth is not automatically creationsm; it is simple a quote.

74 BulgarWheat  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:18:37am

re: #68 Vergeltung

carbon dating, freaking carbon dating.

just sayin'

75 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:19:05am
76 Sloatsburgh  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:19:13am

re: #12 Ben Hur

They wouldn't know what to do because none of them have ever been there.

(and I have manned check points)


Will "faux rocket" be falling on the dorms, too?

77 Pastorius  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:19:17am

That's ok with me if you don't believe in God. It's not my fault you're going to hell.

///sarc off

78 Cognito  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:19:27am

"Five seconds."

Got to admit I'm curious what the fellow has to say.

79 BulgarWheat  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:19:39am

re: #67 BabbaZee

Tiredness sucks. Big OT Tiredness sucks largely!

80 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:20:19am
81 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:20:21am

re: #73 Roger

Go ten utterances!

82 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:20:29am

re: #69 Kirly

leaving the eternity question out of it, I'm just annoyed that people who believe in Creation (not all christians do) are belittled by people who do not....

I don't walk up to people who believe in Evolution and say "What a stupid person you are. You're no different than A Troofer or the Terrorists."

And yet, I've had people say that of me. For believing that God Created.

Instead, I am told how stupid I am and how Creationists are always ranting against the good and innocent Evolutionists.

It reminds me of the liberals calling the conservatives racist for not supporting Obama.

83 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:20:37am

re: #75 buzzsawmonkey

That is too cute for words.

Yeah. I think he was counting on that in order to FORCE me to adopt him. ha

84 zombie  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:20:51am

Oh dear, I've got to miss my own thread! I'm leaving in a few minutes. Sorry if anyone has asked me a question -- I'll have to read the comments later!

85 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:20:55am

This week on

"I know you are, but what am I..."

86 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:21:13am

re: #71 irish rose

I didn't suggest anything.
Have a nice day.

No, you did.

You said that it was going to be that kind of thread only if I wanted it to be.

You are suggesting something. Are you going to explain it?

87 Phocid  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:21:22am

When I lived in Berkeley there used to be a self-appointed preacher on the campus there called Holy Hubert. It was a tossup whether he was full of the Holy Spirit or just plain crazy. He was there all day in Sproul Plaza yelling about sin and salvation. One day a guy on the roof of a nearby building yells down in a gruff voice, "Hubert! This is your God!" Without missing a beat Hubert yells back, "That's as close to heaven as you're ever gonna get, Sinner!"

88 zombie  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:21:36am

re: #5 Killgore Trout

I wonder how long the 5 seconds guy stood out there. Hours?

All day.

89 yma o hyd  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:21:38am

re: #70 mama winger

A mixed bag of lovable floof. I am going to have a DNA rest run on him next week probably. Just to see what I'm up against :)

I'd guess there is Wheaten Terrier and Bearded Collie in him.
Would be very interested to hear that DNA test result.

Did I say he looks absolutely adorable and cuddlesom?

90 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:21:39am

re: #80 buzzsawmonkey


And if they put a "Carbon Dating Game" on TV, I vow that I will not watch it.


I might watch Naked Carbon Dating.

91 FoolsMate  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:21:45am

re: #59 BulgarWheat

I am speaking in general, not necessarily about LGF.

92 BulgarWheat  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:21:52am

re: #80 buzzsawmonkey

outstanding! heh and a double heh!

93 FunkMachine  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:21:54am

Creationists - being unintentionally funny since year zero.

94 opnion  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:22:21am

re: #65 unrealizedviewpoint

Can we chat about it though? I promise not to ring your bell.

Of course. What bI am saying is that holding up mreligious signs generally makes one look like a crackpot.'
Pursuing a religious conversation on an unwilling person is palinly rude & demanded by no god.

95 Roger  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:22:27am

Note: The guy can make a sign!

96 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:22:35am

re: #89 yma o hyd

I'd guess there is Wheaten Terrier and Bearded Collie in him.
Would be very interested to hear that DNA test result.

Did I say he looks absolutely adorable and cuddlesom?

WOW - That's exactluy what I thought too - Wheaten Terrier mix!

97 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:22:44am

re: #36 Charles

By the way, there is nothing essentially "Christian" about creationism. The Catholic Church, for example, has specifically renounced creationism (and intelligent design) and stated that Darwin's theory of evolution is not opposed to Christian faith.

Exactly, Charles. That's one of the reasons this whole "debate" is nuts.

Folks, only one side of this has ever tried making the teaching of the other illegal. And failing that, they ask for "equal time". It smacks of liberalism if you ask me. How different is asking for equal time for this from the so-called fairness doctrine? How different is it from the politicians and zealots who make anything contradicting global warming/climate change illegal?

98 BulgarWheat  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:22:47am

re: #91 FoolsMate

Ok, fair enough.

99 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:23:36am

re: #85 BabbaZee

This week on

"I know you are, but what am I..."

Hey Babba!

100 paxnhymn  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:23:49am

re: #87 Phocid

When I lived in Berkeley there used to be a self-appointed preacher on the campus there called Holy Hubert. It was a tossup whether he was full of the Holy Spirit or just plain crazy. He was there all day in Sproul Plaza yelling about sin and salvation. One day a guy on the roof of a nearby building yells down in a gruff voice, "Hubert! This is your God!" Without missing a beat Hubert yells back, "That's as close to heaven as you're ever gonna get, Sinner!"


my scale for folks (town cryers) like that are to weigh who they've saved against who they've driven farther away from the faith. They results are always negative...it doesn't work.

101 irish rose  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:24:00am

re: #86 LanceKates

I think you're spoiling for a fight, big time.
I'm not interested.

102 zombie  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:24:03am

re: #6 Honorary Yooper

Well, he's in good company at UC Berkley with all the 9-11 Troofers and global warming fearmongers there.

Great point!

Like I said at the bottom of the report,

There are many aspects of the left-wing bias in Berkeley’s liberal arts departments that merit criticism — but insisting that the school’s world-class science departments abandon their fundamental principles is the wrong way to confront the problem.

I don't mind their Global Warming hysteria because it's inspiring the scientists at Lawrence Berkeley Lab to develop alternative energy sources that will wean us off of Saudi Oil. A good side effect of a demented popular delusion!

103 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:24:07am
104 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:24:14am

re: #99 mama winger

Hey!

105 MandyManners  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:24:29am

re: #85 BabbaZee

This week on

"I know you are, but what am I..."

LOL!

106 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:24:46am

re: #88 zombie

All day.

I'm fairly certain he had no other appointments LOL

107 zombie  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:25:06am

re: #11 medaura18586

Zombie, if you are reading this, know that I responded to your email. I hope you can find it in the big stack you got.

I got it! Expect a reply within a month at the most! (Only 1,500 emails in line ahead of you!)

108 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:25:07am

re: #104 BabbaZee

Hey!

I am hand impaired. How are you ?

109 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:25:12am

re: #97 Honorary Yooper

It smacks of liberalism if you ask me. How different is asking for equal time for this from the so-called fairness doctrine?


Exactly, that's why Ben Stein is such an unlikely spokesman. Socialism has no place in the free market of ideas.

110 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:25:16am

re: #101 irish rose

I think you're spoiling for a fight, big time.
I'm not interested.

Nope. Just asking what you meant.


What was it you meant?

111 Alouette  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:25:19am

re: #12 Ben Hur

(and I have manned check points)

You sexist pig! What about the female soldiers? Do they woman checkpoints? You should have said that you personed checkpoints.

/feminist moonbat

112 Charles  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:25:26am

re: #82 LanceKates

leaving the eternity question out of it, I'm just annoyed that people who believe in Creation (not all christians do) are belittled by people who do not....

I don't walk up to people who believe in Evolution and say "What a stupid person you are. You're no different than A Troofer or the Terrorists."

And yet, I've had people say that of me. For believing that God Created.

Instead, I am told how stupid I am and how Creationists are always ranting against the good and innocent Evolutionists.

It reminds me of the liberals calling the conservatives racist for not supporting Obama.

I haven't seen one person call creationists "stupid" in this thread. It would be nice if the discussion could take place without thin-skinned exaggeration.

113 Vergeltung  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:26:19am

re: #74 BulgarWheat

carbon dating, freaking carbon dating.
just sayin'

oh, heh. No, I'm not a creationist. I just find the current discussion about ID/Evolution to parrallel the discussion re Gorebull Wormening; that the "discussion is over" and that the "science is settled" when, clearly, it is not.

one of the mjor flaws of Darwinism is it's inability to explain the infintessimal odds of developing complex organs (a bee's eye, etc) by random chance mutation. further, as I asked above, where is the fossil record of the failed mutations, and the specimems/species that died out due to faield mutations. why is there only a progressive fossil record. I've simplified it here for the sake of brevity and space, but I think you know what I mean. :)

114 dachew  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:26:20am

Creationist: I can prove that God created the heavens and the earth in five seconds.

Me: Fine. On your mark, get set, go.

Creationist: Wow! Check out that chick's rack.

Me: Holy Christ!

Creationist: There you go.

115 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:26:24am

re: #109 Killgore Trout

Socialism has no place in the free market of ideas.

Huh ? that doesn't make sense.

How is it a 'free market of ideas' if something can't be discussed?

116 FoolsMate  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:26:28am

re: #72 jamsler

Do the evangelists and fundies behead them?

In the good ole days.

117 yma o hyd  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:26:50am

re: #96 mama winger

WOW - That's exactluy what I thought too - Wheaten Terrier mix!

GMTA!

118 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:27:22am

re: #108 mama winger

I am hand impaired. How are you ?

lololololol
It is easier to list what it not impaired
and I plan on working on that
commencing now

LOL

SMOKE!

119 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:27:34am

re: #112 Charles

I haven't seen one person call creationists "stupid" in this thread. It would be nice if the discussion could take place without thin-skinned exaggeration.

You did read the Ben Stein thread, so I know that you are aware of what I am talking about.

But, if you want to limit it to this thread, there is this comment:

re: #6 Honorary Yooper

Well, he's in good company at UC Berkley with all the 9-11 Troofers and global warming fearmongers there.

Offense at being compared to Troofers is a thin-skinned exaggeration? (Keeping in mind that we've also, in the Lizard Lounge, been compared to islamic terrorists.)

120 Tigger2005  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:27:39am

What a ridiculous comment on that sign. Scientists--cosmologists and physicists in particular--think about where everything came from all the time, as this guy would know if he bothered to learn anything about science. They have several hypotheses that they are working on.

I might respond, "It's easy to be a believer if you don't think about where God came from." Of course, I would then be told that God has always existed, that God didn't "come from" anything. And if I asked for an explanation, I wouldn't get one. "It's about faith and belief," I would be told. But scientists don't get this out when it comes to explaining where the universe came from, nor do they want it. They're curious and will keep working the problem.

Even so, thousands of scientists still believe in God, and will continue to believe even if physicists demonstrate how "something" can come out of "nothing" naturally and spontaneously. Because scientists still would not have demonstrated whether or not God exists. That's a task that's beyond the scope of science.

121 zmdavid  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:27:40am

re: #80 buzzsawmonkey

Look, I may have to deal with the "carbon credit" BS, but I bloody well draw the line at carbon dating.

And if they put a "Carbon Dating Game" on TV, I vow that I will not watch it.

Diamonds are a girl's best friend?

122 zombie  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:27:45am

re: #24 Vergeltung

where's the fossil record of the failed instances of genetic mutations along the way. must be some, no?

Every species is a "transitional" species.

Including us.

There is no "end point," no "perfect" animal that stops evolving.

Thus every fossil ever found fits your requirements.

123 Roger  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:27:52am

re: #107 zombie

I got it! Expect a reply within a month at the most! (Only 1,500 emails in line ahead of you!)

Zombie? You may want to set up some email filters to sort all that out. Have multiple named inboxes with people filling into them the way you prefer. I usually use the original inbox as the junk one.

124 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:27:56am

re: #111 Alouette

You sexist pig! What about the female soldiers? Do they woman checkpoints? You should have said that you personed checkpoints.

/feminist moonbat

No, they decorate checkpoints, and frankly, doilies are just a little impractical on lift gates.

/Ducks and dives for cover.

125 looking closely  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:28:05am

re: #36 Charles

By the way, there is nothing essentially "Christian" about creationism. The Catholic Church, for example, has specifically renounced creationism (and intelligent design) and stated that Darwin's theory of evolution is not opposed to Christian faith.

Indeed.

Many (if not most) other religions have their own form of Creationism.

Also, there is absolutely NO contradiction between the theory of evolution (in general, see below) and the idea of a "Creator" that started the ball rolling, so to speak.

To repeat, the theory of evolution says, in a nutshell, that environmental pressures can cause heritable changes in POPULATIONS. It says nothing specifically about the origin of man, which is the hangup that causes most angst between nominal creationists and evolutionists.

126 WriterMom  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:28:09am

Popcorn, popcorn....

127 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:28:10am

re: #113 Vergeltung


one of the mjor flaws of Darwinism is it's inability to explain the infintessimal odds of developing complex organs (a bee's eye, etc) by random chance mutation


Evolution is not random. You guys need to update your talking points. They are too easily debunked.

128 BulgarWheat  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:28:25am

re: #113 Vergeltung

Thanks. That's a nice summation and I actually respect where you come from.

All good with me.

I got my path, you've got yours.

All's well that ends well.

129 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:28:30am

re: #112 Charles

I haven't seen one person call creationists "stupid" in this thread. It would be nice if the discussion could take place without thin-skinned exaggeration.

But creationists were put on the same level as 9-11 troofers.

130 Roger  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:28:53am

re: #127 Killgore Trout

Gets embarrassing doesn't it:-)

131 Charles  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:29:08am

re: #119 LanceKates

Offense at being compared to Troofers is a thin-skinned exaggeration? (Keeping in mind that we've also, in the Lizard Lounge, been compared to islamic terrorists.)

So, to be clear, you're asking for special hands-off treatment?

Good luck with that approach at LGF.

132 Milk Toast Intolerant  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:29:35am

Not too long ago, many scientific minds believed the Earth was flat. Science changes all the time, so I think it's too soon to say that evolution is right and creationism is wrong.

133 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:29:49am

re: #115 mama winger

Huh ? that doesn't make sense.

How is it a 'free market of ideas' if something can't be discussed?

The reason why ID isn't discussed seriously in scientific circles is that there is no evidence for it. If you bring supernatural explanations into scientific inquiry, then it ceases to be scientific inquiry.

134 looking closely  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:30:33am

re: #122 zombie

Every species is a "transitional" species.

Including us.

There is no "end point," no "perfect" animal that stops evolving.

Thus every fossil ever found fits your requirements.

The overwhelming majority of organisms don't leave a fossil record, so lack of a particular one doesn't really constitute proof or disproof of anything.

eg: Just because nobody can show you the grave of my great-great-great-great-grandfather, doesn't mean I don't have one.

135 zombie  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:30:40am

OK, I read up through comment #24. Now I'm late!

Please keep the fisticuffs to a reasonable level.

Gotta run.

136 Vergeltung  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:30:46am

re: #109 Killgore Trout

Exactly, that's why Ben Stein is such an unlikely spokesman. Socialism has no place in the free market of ideas.

it's not a free market in education. in modern liberal-arts education in the US, it's indocrination, not education. all sides are not presented. usually, only one side is presented by a moonbat professor/teacher.

137 Ma Sands  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:30:55am

re: #129 mama winger

And stupid & much more, was in more than one, more than two, etc., other threads on the subject..... :)

138 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:31:24am

re: #133 Honorary Yooper

The reason why ID isn't discussed seriously in scientific circles is that there is no evidence for it. If you bring supernatural explanations into scientific inquiry, then it ceases to be scientific inquiry.

I understand that point. I do - I may not agree with it but I understand it. What I was referring to was Killgore's statement that Socialism has no place in the free market of ideas.

139 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:31:36am

re: #131 Charles

So, to be clear, you're asking for special hands-off treatment?

Good luck with that approach at LGF.

I'm not asking for anything. Just clarifying your statement about insults directed at Creationists existing, even within this thread.

I don't care if they rip on creationists, but it ought to be fair game to point out and address such insults.

Especially when others are making a strong point about the creationists (calling them 'fundies') being the degrading ones.

140 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:31:50am

re: #113 Vergeltung

oh, heh. No, I'm not a creationist. I just find the current discussion about ID/Evolution to parrallel the discussion re Gorebull Wormening; that the "discussion is over" and that the "science is settled" when, clearly, it is not.

one of the mjor flaws of Darwinism is it's inability to explain the infintessimal odds of developing complex organs (a bee's eye, etc) by random chance mutation. further, as I asked above, where is the fossil record of the failed mutations, and the specimems/species that died out due to faield mutations. why is there only a progressive fossil record. I've simplified it here for the sake of brevity and space, but I think you know what I mean. :)

As far as the fossil record goes, I would venture it comes down to the law of averages. The stable species would be more numerous while the failed mutations would have significantly smaller chance of being present. Now add to this the percentage of the creatures which actually became fossilized and it lowers the likelihood of finding a so called failed mutation to begin with. On the flip side, given the rarity of some fossil species, how can we be sure they weren't failed and we are making false assumptions of their viability.

141 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:31:54am
142 paxnhymn  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:32:14am

re: #112 Charles

I haven't seen one person call creationists "stupid" in this thread. It would be nice if the discussion could take place without thin-skinned exaggeration.


Actually, the whole antagonist-protagonist thing is quite silly> I'm an evangelical. God created. He may have used evolution as a template. No biggy. I see No reason why God couldn't have put things into motion in a gradual "simmering' fashion. Does that invalidate Genesis. Nope. If God would have told Moses that he came from an evolving mass of DNA ribbon, his response would've been a "Whatchu talkin' bout Willis?" Kinda response. Knowledge is revealed as we progress. as we stretch ourselves out of our zone of comfort. The two are NOT mutually exclusive. It gets tedious listening to the banter.

144 MandyManners  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:32:27am

I'm invoking my Dr. Pepper rule.

BBIAB.

145 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:32:32am

re: #115 mama winger

How is it a 'free market of ideas' if something can't be discussed?


To follow the analogy; Creation science is a failed business. It went bankrupt generations ago. Why should it be propped up by subsidies and allowed to operate like a Fortune 500 company? They can start from scratch anytime (like they tried with ID) and compete on a level playing field. Despite what Stein tells us, the playing field is level and fair. Ideas should be allowed to succeed or fail in a free market. Failed ideas should be discarded, it does us no good to keep them around.

146 Cognito  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:32:37am

re: #131 Charles

So, to be clear, you're asking for special hands-off treatment?

Good luck with that approach at LGF.


I didn't read it that way, Charles. I think he's asking for mere fairness.

Everybody deserves skepticism; comparisons to low-lifes are a bit harder to take.

147 mikalm  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:32:49am

re: #100 paxnhymn

my scale for folks (town cryers) like that are to weigh who they've saved against who they've driven farther away from the faith. They results are always negative...it doesn't work.

I credit the inimitable "Brother Jed" Smock, as well as the hatemonger Jack Chick, with turning me off to the Good News until I was in my mid-30s. Confrontational evangelism seems to only reach the people who themselves want to be noisy, self-righteous bullies in the name of faith.

148 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:32:55am
149 Charles  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:33:21am

If you'd rather complain about insults than contribute to the discussion, that's your choice.

150 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:33:30am

re: #130 Roger

I think it's slowly getting better, but it is frustrating.

151 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:33:54am

re: #149 Charles

If you'd rather complain about insults than contribute to the discussion, that's your choice.

What kind of contribution on a thread about a Creationist protestor is there to be made?

152 opnion  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:33:54am

re: #132 Milk Toast Intolerant

Not too long ago, many scientific minds believed the Earth was flat. Science changes all the time, so I think it's too soon to say that evolution is right and creationism is wrong.

Shot & A goal! One can look at the same facts & data and draw either conclusion.
It is not unreasonable to believe in Darwinism & still have a faith in a Supreme Being or at least hold out the possibility.

153 Cognito  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:34:16am

re: #148 buzzsawmonkey

Creationism? Right now I'm thinking about procreationism.

/mind in the gutter, as usual.

Well heck. This whole time I thought my wife was chastising me for procrastination.

154 BulgarWheat  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:34:34am

re: #127 Killgore Trout

Debunk me you savage beast!

heh!

155 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:34:44am

re: #145 Killgore Trout

I must have misunderstood your original comment. I thought you were referring to socialism when you said socialism had no place in the free market of ideas.

Are you referring to creationism as socialism ? I'm all mixed up now. Not an unusual occurence :)

156 Pastorius  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:35:32am

It seems to me Comment #6 was a comment aimed at the idiocy of the guy with the sign (claiming he could prove God's existence in five seconds,when Spinoza, St. Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, etc all used more time and didn't accomplish much) not at Christians in general.

157 Ma Sands  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:35:36am

re: #145 Killgore Trout

It depends on the meaning of the word "failed"......and, likewise, who uses it. :)

158 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:35:43am

re: #148 buzzsawmonkey

Creationism? Right now I'm thinking about procreationism.

/mind in the gutter, as usual.

I thought you were neutered.

159 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:35:43am

Me, I'd rather mock than have this pointless "discussion" again or speak Whinese.


Scientists can create and destroy whole planets!
see : Pluto

/I'm only here as a referee

LOL

160 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:35:59am

Obama is Prolier than Thou, Knuckledraggers!

161 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:36:29am

re: #154 BulgarWheat

Debunk me you savage beast!

That would rotate nicely IMO

162 WriterMom  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:36:33am

I think it's great that the guy with the sign had the time and the interest to express himself at Berzerkely. I don't understand what people are getting so upset about.

163 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:36:41am

re: #156 Pastorius

It seems to me Comment #6 was a comment aimed at the idiocy of the guy with the sign (claiming he could prove God's existence in five seconds,when Spinoza, St. Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, etc all used more time and didn't accomplish much) not at Christians in general.

That was very much my point.

164 storagemanager  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:36:42am

If your faith is real...wear the name calling as a badge of honor.

165 Cognito  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:36:53am

I think this guy with the sign is doing the best he can. Good intentions and all that. And by George, the Berkeley market does seem to respect a person waving a sign; he might have better luck if he dressed up in a bunny suit or painted himself silver, though.

I tend to agree with Kierkegaard, who said something to the effect that the moment religion begins to lean on or against science, it sets itself up for embarrassment. Faith is always about what lies on the other side of science.

166 BulgarWheat  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:37:12am

re: #161 BabbaZee

geez. I hope not. I had hoped that would have gone unnoticed.

heh

167 WriterMom  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:37:13am

re: #161 BabbaZee

Agreed.

168 Vergeltung  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:37:28am

re: #122 zombie

Every species is a "transitional" species.
Including us.
There is no "end point," no "perfect" animal that stops evolving.
Thus every fossil ever found fits your requirements.

totally scooting around the point. take opposing digits for example, a key evolutionary factor in human development. it justy appears out of nowhere. this is all hard to discuss in a short post, think-as-you-type format, but I think you know where I am going with it.

simply stated, where are the fossils of the fish with threee dorsal fins, the human anscestor with mutations that were failures, that did not help adaptation to environments? it's a huge simplification, but, that's all I can do in this format.

just read about the 747 postulation; that there's not much more chance of a hurricane blasting through an airplane junkyard and creating a 747, as there is of life being created and perfected from random particles and protons, through random chance mutations.

169 Ma Sands  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:38:25am

re: #164 storagemanager

Or rather, let it roll off as water does on a duck's back......keeping the goal in mind..... :)

170 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:38:29am
171 looking closely  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:38:35am

re: #113 Vergeltung


one of the mjor flaws of Darwinism is it's inability to explain the infintessimal odds of developing complex organs (a bee's eye, etc) by random chance mutation.


The theory of evolution actually explains things like that quite well.

Its not one random chance mutation that causes the bee's eye, but rather a series of thousands of them over tens of thousands of years, coupled with environmental pressure to ensure that the "good" mutations stick around.

Its like saying no human is smart enough to invent a modern PC, therefore they must have been placed on the Earth by supernatural beings.

The first part is true. . .the PC was invented by hundreds or thousands of people, with tens to hundreds of thousands of man-hours of work, representing decades of cumulative design experience. Its the second part that's untrue.

172 Golem Akbar  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:38:44am

re: #126 WriterMom

Popcorn, popcorn....

I've been away for a while, come back, saw this thread, and thought: oh my. And your comment. Oh yeah. [I would rather discuss the finer points of single-malt scotch].

173 opnion  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:38:50am

re: #162 WriterMom

I think it's great that the guy with the sign had the time and the interest to express himself at Berzerkely. I don't understand what people are getting so upset about.

Because, he looks like a loon & actually does religion a disservice.

174 Lively  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:38:53am

re: #1 SemperHunden

Look at that picture, how the people are just laughing at him.

They said the same thing about Moses.

175 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:38:54am

re: #162 WriterMom

I think it's great that the guy with the sign had the time and the interest to express himself at Berzerkely. I don't understand what people are getting so upset about.

Yep. We all get to make our voices heard. That's why they call it America. :)

176 WriterMom  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:39:07am

OT question:

Why do some web sites 'trap' you in their site, and not let you click back to get out of it? I find that so frustrating.

177 Lively  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:39:14am

re: #174 Lively

They said the same thing about Moses.

I mean Noah....LOL!

178 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:39:30am
179 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:39:36am

re: #155 mama winger
Science is a free market system. Anyone can play, if you have proof and solid science your idea will succeed. If you fail to prove you idea it will fail. Creationism as science failed long ago, what Ben is asking for is interference in the free market system to allow a failed (bankrupt) idea to be presented on equal footing with a succeeding (prosperous) idea. It doesn't make sense to alter the market place in this way.

180 doppelganglander  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:39:44am

re: #37 mama winger

I had no idea you have lupus. I do, too, although I'm pretty much asymptomatic as long as I take my meds. Sure hope you're feeling better soon!

181 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:39:47am

One describes the physical in the terms of the secular.
One describes the spiritual in the terms of the biblical.

SO?

182 Vergeltung  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:39:52am

re: #127 Killgore Trout

Evolution is not random. You guys need to update your talking points. They are too easily debunked.

how does the first change happen? the first dingo with longer ears for the desert? the first giraffe with a longer neck for higher feeding? how and when does that first change occur?

and, there is no reason to insult me referring to "you guys" and talking points. I am trying to engage in an intelligent discussion with you guys. if that's not possible, I won't bother. :)

183 Lively  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:39:53am

re: #5 Killgore Trout

I wonder how long the 5 seconds guy stood out there. Hours?

I'm arriving late but....this is funny.

184 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:39:57am

re: #172 Golem Akbar

[I would rather discuss the finer points of single-malt scotch].


Oh me too! What's your favorite?

185 paxnhymn  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:40:01am

re: #177 Lively

I mean Noah....LOL!

one 'a those bearded guys , hunh?!


:-D

186 WriterMom  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:40:29am

re: #173 opnion

You're upset because he looks weird? How does he hamper "religion"...he's just speaking for himself?

187 Roger  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:40:58am

re: #173 opnion

Because, he looks like a loon & actually does religion a disservice.

Hey, at least he isn't screaming out imagined sexual scenarios to 'condemn' the students with like some street performer types are want to do.

188 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:41:00am

I look weird. Don't be upset.

189 Vergeltung  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:41:00am

re: #128 BulgarWheat

Thanks. That's a nice summation and I actually respect where you come from.
All good with me.
I got my path, you've got yours.
All's well that ends well.

thanks dude. I am falling behind on the thread quickly. that's what happens when you write long posts I guess! ;)

190 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:41:02am

re: #176 WriterMom

OT question:

Why do some web sites 'trap' you in their site, and not let you click back to get out of it? I find that so frustrating.

In some cases, its a kind of adware which introduces a hidden page between the first page and what you were reading. When you click back, it takes you back once to the hidden page which forwards you to what you just read again.

191 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:41:02am

re: #180 doppelganglander

I had no idea you have lupus. I do, too, although I'm pretty much asymptomatic as long as I take my meds. Sure hope you're feeling better soon!

Oh dear! another Lupoid !?

I'm sorry - but glad you seem to have it under control. I wish you continued health and wellness.

192 looking closely  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:41:06am

re: #140 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

As far as the fossil record goes, I would venture it comes down to the law of averages. The stable species would be more numerous while the failed mutations would have significantly smaller chance of being present. Now add to this the percentage of the creatures which actually became fossilized and it lowers the likelihood of finding a so called failed mutation to begin with. On the flip side, given the rarity of some fossil species, how can we be sure they weren't failed and we are making false assumptions of their viability.

Most mutations won't create a fossil record anyway.

Where is the fossil record of albino dinosaurs for example?

Should we presume that they didn't exist because we have no record of them (even though there are plenty of modern albino birds, reptiles, and mammals)?

193 SpaceJesus  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:41:12am

re: #174 Lively

They said the same thing about Moses.

what

194 Lively  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:41:29am

Those are great pictures Zombie, thanks.

195 loppyd  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:41:37am

Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water....

196 Mo86  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:41:39am

It's been very sad to see LGF coming down on the side of those who would crush the discussion about ID in college classrooms (or anywhere else.)

So much for standing up for academic freedom. I never would've dreamed to see this here.

197 storagemanager  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:42:07am

At least he is not wearing a bomb...Islam is the enemy.

198 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:42:21am

re: #148 buzzsawmonkey

Creationism? Right now I'm thinking about procreationism.

/mind in the gutter, as usual.

Hardly in the gutter. Procreation is the imperative of all life. Everything that we do towards that aim should be considered good, even supporting the efforts of others to do that. I'm not entirely sure, but I think I just came up with a justification for pr0n that inspires lascivious thought.

Also, getting as much practice at it as we can must then be considered a good thing.

199 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:42:22am

re: #196 Mo86

It's been very sad to see LGF coming down on the side of those who would crush the discussion about ID in college classrooms (or anywhere else.)

So much for standing up for academic freedom. I never would've dreamed to see this here.


I am entirely for teaching ID if that helps you any

200 yma o hyd  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:42:34am

re: #165 Cognito

I think this guy with the sign is doing the best he can. Good intentions and all that. And by George, the Berkeley market does seem to respect a person waving a sign; he might have better luck if he dressed up in a bunny suit or painted himself silver, though.

I tend to agree with Kierkegaard, who said something to the effect that the moment religion begins to lean on or against science, it sets itself up for embarrassment. Faith is always about what lies on the other side of science.

Yep - precisely so!
Pity then, that so many atheists rely on the latest scientific discoveries to proclaim that God doesn't exist, because they haven't found/measured/observed him in their laboratories ...

201 Vergeltung  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:42:45am

re: #140 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

excellent point. well taken..

202 zmdavid  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:42:49am

I wish they would restrict evolution to science and leave it out of Constitutional law.

203 WriterMom  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:42:49am

re: #172 Golem Akbar

I would rather discuss how totally thrilled I am that the annual Nakba Seetheopolooza has started.

Charles-I don't know if you saw this article, but it's kind of whack.

Israel's Original Sin

204 Lively  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:42:51am

re: #193 SpaceJesus

what

I meant Noah.

/I can't believe I typed Moses....sorry all. Including Moses if he reads English.

205 sojerofgod  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:43:20am

I just joined in here, so if i get this right, If I am one of those cynics who think that the chance that all you and i see and experience, the vast wonderful universe et al, all came into existence and spread, flourished and grew simply by random chance over who-cares-how-many years, are so close to zero as to be statistically indescribable, that makes me a creationist?

206 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:43:25am

They laughed at Moses too

207 loppyd  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:43:25am

re: #203 WriterMom

I would rather discuss how totally thrilled I am that the annual Nakba Seetheopolooza has started.

Charles-I don't know if you saw this article, but it's kind of whack.

Israel's Original Sin

I know what that means now!

Thank you....

208 SpaceJesus  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:43:35am

re: #182 Vergeltung

how does the first change happen? the first dingo with longer ears for the desert? the first giraffe with a longer neck for higher feeding? how and when does that first change occur?

and, there is no reason to insult me referring to "you guys" and talking points. I am trying to engage in an intelligent discussion with you guys. if that's not possible, I won't bother. :)

how could you be old enough to surf the web and not know the answer to this? lemme guess, you were schooled at home?

209 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:43:41am

re: #196 Mo86

It's been very sad to see LGF coming down on the side of those who would crush the discussion about ID in college classrooms (or anywhere else.)

So much for standing up for academic freedom. I never would've dreamed to see this here.

Huh? There very much is a free-market in ideas. However, one should not prop up ideas that have failed in that marketplace. It smacks of liberalism, and I find it very troubling that some here espouse socialism in the realm of ideas when an idea they like fails.

210 Ma Sands  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:43:44am

re: #193 SpaceJesus

What is the signification of your nic, if I may ask? :)


..... and, operative funk machine..... --I've a question for you, if you would be so kind as to appear..... :)

211 Golem Akbar  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:43:59am

re: #178 buzzsawmonkey

The finest point of any single-malt Scotch is proximity.


I'll drink to that.

212 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:44:03am

re: #199 BabbaZee

I am entirely for teaching ID if that helps you any

Me too.

213 dominigan  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:44:13am

re: #26 Pastorius

Wrong. The fruit was from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. There is truly a world of difference here. Knowledge is certainly not discouraged. However, exploring all the different ways to commit evil... that is!

214 SpaceJesus  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:44:30am

re: #206 BabbaZee

They laughed at Moses too

and they laughed at hitler at first too. your point?

215 Charles  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:44:31am

re: #196 Mo86

It's been very sad to see LGF coming down on the side of those who would crush the discussion about ID in college classrooms (or anywhere else.)

So much for standing up for academic freedom. I never would've dreamed to see this here.

Don't be ridiculous. No one is on the side of crushing free speech here.

And the claims made by Ben Stein's movie about suppression of ID believers are almost entirely made up.

216 WriterMom  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:44:32am

On second thought, I'll call it NakbaPolooza.

I like that better.

217 JohnnyReb  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:44:36am

re: #102 zombie

I don't mind their Global Warming hysteria because it's inspiring the scientists at Lawrence Berkeley Lab to develop alternative energy sources that will wean us off of Saudi Oil. A good side effect of a demented popular delusion!


Actually I mind it. All of this carbon cap and trade BS has just got a bill in my state sent to the Governor for signature that will increase my electricity rates by at least 10 cents per KWH. Granted, not a huge increase, but it is just the beginning.

I am hoping Gov. Rell can see through the BS and veto the bill. My electric rate is high enough as it is.

218 ec marm  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:44:55am

re: #175 mama winger

Yep. We all get to make our voices heard. That's why they call it America. :)


Only in America could somebody nic/named 'SpaceJesus' ding you down.

219 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:45:06am

re: #214 SpaceJesus

and they laughed at hitler at first too. your point?

I have to have a point?

Lighten up

220 looking closely  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:45:07am

re: #182 Vergeltung

how does the first change happen? the first dingo with longer ears for the desert? the first giraffe with a longer neck for higher feeding? how and when does that first change occur?


Since nobody was standing there observing the phenomenon you mention, you can't have a conclusive answer, but the way it works is as follows:

In any population of dingoes, some of them are going to have longer ears, some shorter. The ones with the longer ears will hear slightly better, translating into a small survival and reproductive advantage. Over many many generations those advantages will ensure that the population of dingoes all have longer ears than their predecessors.

Even in the population of long-eared dingoes, there will still be some with longer and some with smaller ears.

But the selective pressure of having better hearing will, over time, "perfect" the ears of the dingo population to their environment, within genetic limitations.

221 jamsler  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:45:19am

re: #116 FoolsMate

Some hundreds of years ago. I remember it like it was yesteryear.

What this guy is doing, standing in Berkley with a sign like that, subject to constant ridicule is a labor of love for him. It takes more cajones than I have. I may or may not agree with him but this I know:

He isn't the enemy.

Only one group of zealots today will behead you for not subscribing to their zany beliefs. It's them I'm worried about.

Waste your ammo on sitting ducks if you want, I'm keeping my gunsights on the enemy.

222 sojerofgod  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:45:20am

re: #170 buzzsawmonkey

neutralized?

Isn't that like taking an alka-seltzer?

223 WriterMom  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:45:30am

re: #214 SpaceJesus

Yo-did you OD on senstivity pills today?

What's with the Itlerhay reference?

224 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:45:38am

re: #215 Charles

225 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:45:47am

DINGO!

226 WriterMom  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:45:50am

re: #219 BabbaZee

JEWLEPATHY!

227 paxnhymn  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:45:52am

re: #196 Mo86

It's been very sad to see LGF coming down on the side of those who would crush the discussion about ID in college classrooms (or anywhere else.)

So much for standing up for academic freedom. I never would've dreamed to see this here.

as I have (wearily) said time and time again...I see NO evidence of the above on LGF...Oh, we have the ocassional emo on both sides who gets their feelings hurt or throws a slur, but all in all there have been a healthy (and quite respectful) airing of ideas>

I wonder, as an evangelical and a proponent of ID, if we have become too thin skinned, or silly enough to think our God is not big enough to overcome obstacles without our help....

228 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:45:54am

re: #218 ec marm

Only in America could somebody nic/named 'SpaceJesus' ding you down.

Hahahahaha ! :)

229 brothertrav  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:45:55am

Wow... here we go again.

Has this site been taken over by Jerry Springer? Every few days now there seems to be a topic that's thrown up just to instigate arguments and hard feelings...

230 jamsler  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:46:10am

Man,these threads move fast!

231 Golem Akbar  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:46:19am

re: #207 loppyd

I know what that means now!

Thank you....


/And the world is flat!

232 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:46:33am

re: #215 Charles

And the claims made by Ben Stein's movie about suppression of ID believers are almost entirely made up.


How do you know it? What makes you say it?
I'd like to read whatever you have on it.

233 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:46:41am

re: #183 Lively

Update: zombie says he was there all day

234 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:46:54am

re: #226 WriterMom

I mean....... really.

235 opnion  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:47:21am

re: #186 WriterMom

You're upset because he looks weird? How does he hamper "religion"...he's just speaking for himself?

Ok, so if the guy was holding a sign that said something like, oh I don't know "behead those who insult Islam", we would all think it was weird.
I don't think religion is appropriate for a protest type sign. Also could anybody in pocession of their faculties think that this would fly at Berkley?

236 Roger  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:47:22am

re: #206 BabbaZee

And Elisha..

/Elijah? Enoch? How far are you both from Jerusalem?

237 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:47:46am

re: #218 ec marm

Only in America could somebody nic/named 'SpaceJesus' ding you down.

Oh my gosh! He really did down-ding me for celebrating America!

I gotta say - that's a first LOL

238 dominigan  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:47:46am

re: #171 looking closely

Actually statistics, and simple observations show that unneeded genetic mutations are weeded out, not prolonged. After all, according to natural selection, who wants to mate with a cripple? (Disclaimer... not a moral implication, just a logical application of natural selection which ends up disproving itself.)

239 WriterMom  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:47:48am

re: #229 brothertrav

Dude, with all due respect, this is Charles' blog. Whatever he wants to post-he posts.

240 loppyd  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:47:48am

re: #231 Golem Akbar

/And the world is flat!

who said anything to the contrary?

:~)

241 FoolsMate  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:47:49am

re: #132 Milk Toast Intolerant

Science does have a history of establishing flawed paradigms and of shouting down scientific dissenters. It also has a history of destroying and replacing such paradigms in the face of evidence, although sometimes that process can take years or decades or longer. It's possible you are correct, but what are the chances? The theory of evolution, since Darwin, is not only still standing after 150 years, but the supporting evidence continues to grow stronger, and there are no credible scientific challenges to it at this time.

242 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:47:52am

re: #192 looking closely

Most mutations won't create a fossil record anyway.

Where is the fossil record of albino dinosaurs for example?

Should we presume that they didn't exist because we have no record of them (even though there are plenty of modern albino birds, reptiles, and mammals)?

Exactly.

Personally, I dont see the point of the debate here.

The theory of evolution is just that, a theory on how species have adapted over time. Intelligent Design is a theory that an outside force created life and set it on its course. I dont see why people think the two have to be mutually exclusive. I believe in God and that he created the universe according to his plan. To fulfill his plan, God created life and uses evolution as a mechanism to enact his will.

243 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:47:58am

re: #236 Roger

And Elisha..

/Elijah? Enoch? How far are you both from Jerusalem?

And.....well, pretty much everyone.

244 right wing zephyr  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:48:24am

I took my meds. Can I participate?

245 Golem Akbar  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:48:36am

re: #230 jamsler

Man,these threads move fast!


It's a slow news day, maybe, you heathen.

246 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:48:39am

re: #235 opnion

. Also could anybody in pocession of their faculties think that this would fly at Berkley?

That's what makes it glorious. :)

247 guitarguy  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:48:44am

I’ve posted my own 2 cents regarding this debate on other websites, and having learned my lesson* have chosen to provide this link, as it pretty much says it nicely:

If you enjoy a good laugh, you’ll love this:

........and these are just downright scary:
[Link: www.youtube.com...]

*The reactions I’d received pretty much implied that I must be a left-leaning advocate of teaching young children about sex education and homosexual marriages while leading a lawless amoral lifestyle.
No, I’m not joking.

248 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:49:20am

re: #244 right wing zephyr

I took my meds. Can I participate?

No. Only people OFF their meds can post.

249 sojerofgod  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:49:35am

re: #217 JohnnyReb
Sorry Zom, but i gotta go with Johnnyreb on that one.
I just want to be left alone.
I just want to be left alone so bad i'm ready to climb the nearest belltower and scream i just want to be left alone at the top of my lungs. With a megaphone.

They used to call people who wanted to tell you what to do busybodies. Now we call them politicians.
And that goes for all of the cankerous lot, too.

250 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:49:36am
251 Pope Insouciance IV  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:49:40am

There's so much right about that picture it's hard to know where to begin.
He's a guy with an opinion on a college campus.
No one is stopping him from speaking.
From the looks of it, no one is threatening him.
No ugliness.
He's not bothering anyone, just getting his message out.
No college administrator is hustling him off campus because of a "speech code".
This is exactly what colleges should be doing. The vaunted "marketplace of ideas". Some ideas are dumb, some are sublime. Quite a lot in between. But it's a free exchange of opinions.

God Bless Freedom Of Speech!

252 Charles  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:50:03am

re: #232 BabbaZee

re: #215 Charles

How do you know it? What makes you say it?
I'd like to read whatever you have on it.

I know because I saw the movie, then read many statements from people whose opinions were either 1) distorted, or 2) completely misrepresented.

And the claims about suppression are very well debunked, with facts, names, and dates, at this site:

[Link: www.expelledexposed.com...]

It's a dishonest film. And I'm saying this as a (former) fan of Ben Stein.

253 opnion  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:50:10am

re: #205 sojerofgod

I just joined in here, so if i get this right, If I am one of those cynics who think that the chance that all you and i see and experience, the vast wonderful universe et al, all came into existence and spread, flourished and grew simply by random chance over who-cares-how-many years, are so close to zero as to be statistically indescribable, that makes me a creationist?

No, it makes you somebody looking at data & drawing a rational conclusion.

254 WriterMom  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:50:18am

re: #235 opnion

First of all, there is a big difference between those messages. There is nothing violent in this guy's sign. Secondly, who cares if the message flies or not. This guy got some paper a big black marker and has the time and the interest in hanging out on campus. What's the big deal?

255 Vergeltung  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:50:28am

re: #208 SpaceJesus

how could you be old enough to surf the web and not know the answer to this? lemme guess, you were schooled at home?

yes, that certainly is the summa of all education, "surfing the web". should I cite wikipedia perhaps? your insults hardly add to the discussion. thanks for the feedback.

256 irish rose  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:50:38am

re: #229 brothertrav

Wow... here we go again.

Has this site been taken over by Jerry Springer? Every few days now there seems to be a topic that's thrown up just to instigate arguments and hard feelings...

Only if you want them to.

Civility is a choice.

257 right wing zephyr  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:50:45am

re: #250 BabbaZee

So true thou vile swine! Out of my sight! Thou dost infect my eyes.

258 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:50:46am

re: #182 Vergeltung

how does the first change happen? the first dingo with longer ears for the desert? the first giraffe with a longer neck for higher feeding? how and when does that first change occur?

The answers are very easy to learn. You should read up on what evolutionary biologists think, not what creationists tell you about what biologists think. It's a strawman argument. I won't provide links anymore because it doesn't seem to help any.

259 dominigan  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:50:48am

re: #215 Charles

Sorry, untrue. I've been involved in the trying to get ID discussions allowed in classrooms for Ohio curriculum... simply to discuss as an alternative theory, alongside Darwinism. And you would have thought we were trying to get a conservative justice nomination through a Democratic Congress. There IS an active movement to suppress discussion of ID.

260 storagemanager  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:51:04am
Ahmadinejad Says End Of The World Near - Messianic “Hidden” Imam Al Mahdi Is Now Running The Show

Yeah...the guy with the sign is the nut...ok. [Link: patdollard.com...]

261 Vergeltung  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:51:08am

re: #209 Honorary Yooper

a product has to get to market before it can fail.

262 irish rose  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:51:11am

re: #248 mama winger

No. Only people OFF their meds can post.

What about those of us who don't take any meds?

263 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:51:31am

re: #252 Charles
Thanks
I have seen the expelled exposed site
What I was looking for
was corroborating stuff from other places
if you find any along the way please post

264 Pater Coop  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:51:43am

Here's a cool science fact. Apparently the cavity in our bodies (under the vital organs? I was never good at Biology) is lined with many, many little open capillaries. When internal bleeding occurs, the blood drains into this cavity, where it is somehow kept fresh and oxygenated, and eventually absorbed back into the bloodstream. The Dr. who told me this said that you can even receive a slow-acting blood transfusion by injecting blood into the cavity. Thank you, God, for allowing us to evolve in such a wondrous manner!

265 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:51:48am

re: #251 Pope Insouciance IV

CHEERS

266 Alouette  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:51:51am

re: #174 Lively

They said the same thing about Moses.

Who did?

267 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:51:52am

re: #257 right wing zephyr

If only thy were clean enough for me to spit upon.

268 sojerofgod  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:52:22am

re: #238 dominigan

... who wants to mate with a cripple?

Now you know why humans are subject to so many inherited defects and diseases!

Heh.

269 MrSilverDragon  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:52:27am

re: #262 irish rose

What about those of us who don't take any meds?

Crack open the scotch!

270 right wing zephyr  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:52:29am

re: #262 irish rose

What about those of us who don't take any meds?

NO MEDS!?!?!? thou dost not believe in science. Your virginity, your old virginity is like one of our French wither'd pears: it looks ill, it eats drily.

271 Golem Akbar  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:52:34am

re: #250 BabbaZee

I think it's time to whip out the Shakespearean Insultomatic again

That's a keeper! [as opposed to this keeper]

272 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:52:37am

re: #262 irish rose

What about those of us who don't take any meds?

You have to sit in the waiting room till you go nuts. Then you can post. :)

273 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:52:41am

re: #262 irish rose

What about those of us who don't take any meds?

You dare flout Science?

/

274 Lively  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:52:41am

re: #266 Alouette

Who did?

I typed in Moses as a mistake and I'm still payin' for it.

275 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:53:14am
276 right wing zephyr  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:53:17am

re: #267 BabbaZee

haha old wench. Thou art a wretch whose natural gifts were poor.

277 opnion  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:53:40am

re: #246 mama winger


That's what makes it glorious. :)


Huh? The purpose you would suppose would be to influence opinion.
They are laughing at him. He just reinforces their snarky opnion that Christians are kooks.

278 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:53:50am

re: #251 Pope Insouciance IV

Nice post

279 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:53:56am

re: #259 dominigan

Sorry, untrue. I've been involved in the trying to get ID discussions allowed in classrooms for Ohio curriculum... simply to discuss as an alternative theory, alongside Darwinism. And you would have thought we were trying to get a conservative justice nomination through a Democratic Congress. There IS an active movement to suppress discussion of ID.

Again, the problem with ID, no matter how you slice it or present it, is that it simply isn't a vaild scientific theory. Once you bring in the supernatural in to teach science, you aren't teaching science anymore. You are in the realm of metaphysics and theology. That's why, regardless of your stance on ID, it should not be taught in a science classroom.

Again, this is the "equal time" phenomenon that is no different than what the liberals want with the so-called fairness doctrine.

280 WriterMom  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:53:56am

re: #238 dominigan

I don't understand your point.

281 victor_yugo  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:54:11am

re: #112 Charles

I haven't seen one person call creationists "stupid" in this thread. It would be nice if the discussion could take place without thin-skinned exaggeration.

Lance wasn't saying specifically "on this thread," or even "on this site."

However, on this thread, the word "stupid" (or a word containing that, like "stupidity") appears 31 times (not counting replies), and some of those are directly aimed at others on the thread. And zombie explicitly calls people "ignorant," or refers to their "ignorance," 3 times.

282 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:54:20am
283 right wing zephyr  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:54:26am
who wants to mate with a cripple?

I'll take 2!

284 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:54:30am

re: #261 Vergeltung

a product has to get to market before it can fail.

It did make it to market. It failed to stand up to the standards of evidence about 150 years ago.

285 Pawn of the Oppressor  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:54:37am

We are where we are today because of both science and G-d's grace.

Frankly I find science enhances G-d, not the opposite, as so many seem to feel.

286 looking closely  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:54:38am

re: #238 dominigan

Actually statistics, and simple observations show that unneeded genetic mutations are weeded out, not prolonged. After all, according to natural selection, who wants to mate with a cripple? (Disclaimer... not a moral implication, just a logical application of natural selection which ends up disproving itself.)


You don't have to prove this to me.

As another example, where is the fossil record of the dog intermediate between a Doberman Pincher and a wolf?

I think even the most diehard Creationist would concede that such a dog must have existed at one point, de-fanging arguments about incomplete fossil records.

287 zmdavid  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:54:46am

This debate is more about power and victimhood than about science.

288 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:55:01am

re: #282 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Uff DAH!

289 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:55:09am

re: #287 zmdavid

This debate is more about power and victimhood than about science.

Amen

290 loppyd  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:55:22am

Can't it be a little of both? Like Donny & Marie?

291 Golem Akbar  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:55:27am

re: #275 buzzsawmonkey

Gee, I'm stumped.

sounds like a trip

292 sojerofgod  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:55:35am

re: #264 Pater Coop

My truck's got one of those!

I call it an oilpan.

293 right wing zephyr  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:55:45am

re: #287 zmdavid

This debate is

I have yet to see much of a debate. I'm disenchanted.

294 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:55:57am

re: #285 Pawn of the Oppressor

Amen to that too

Here is a place where they agree with us

295 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:56:15am

re: #259 dominigan

Sorry, untrue. I've been involved in the trying to get ID discussions allowed in classrooms for Ohio curriculum... simply to discuss as an alternative theory, alongside Darwinism. And you would have thought we were trying to get a conservative justice nomination through a Democratic Congress. There IS an active movement to suppress discussion of ID.

I've been through a "Critical Thinking and Reasoning" class that had a textbook which gave examples of good and poor thinking skills.

Good examples were people talking about how global warming is man-made, how welfare works and how universal healthcare is needed.

examples of poor thinking involved people wanting to have firearms, lowering taxes and believing in Creation.

And it was a class wholly unrelated to Science.

My Science book discusses evolution in every chapter, even those discussing physics.

Yet I am to believe that no one is trying to ignore Creationism or any variation of ID?

296 Roger  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:56:25am

re: #231 Golem Akbar

/And the world is flat!

I wish to prove the world is of a more complex geometry than egg shaped for the basic hope there be yet one uninhabited continent where we can emigrate and try one more time for a free enterprise civilization with small government with we the people running it by part time service.

297 storagemanager  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:56:30am

I am too busy posting about the real enemy on spin-off ...to care about this topic.

298 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:56:45am

re: #293 right wing zephyr

Some disenchanted evening
You wilst club an errant whey-face!

299 MandyManners  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:56:47am

re: #256 irish rose

Only if you want them to.

Civility is a choice.

IS NOT! IS NOT! IS NOT!

300 Charles  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:56:58am

re: #263 BabbaZee

Thanks
I have seen the expelled exposed site
What I was looking for
was corroborating stuff from other places
if you find any along the way please post

There is a lot of stuff on the web about this film; Scientific American has also done a series of exposés of the film's dishonest claims.

301 opnion  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:56:59am

re: #254 WriterMom

First of all, there is a big difference between those messages. There is nothing violent in this guy's sign. Secondly, who cares if the message flies or not. This guy got some paper a big black marker and has the time and the interest in hanging out on campus. What's the big deal?

Clearly the messages are different. I was just answering your comment about what could be wrong with holding up a sign.
He has every right to do what he is doing, but he comes actross as unhinged. They are laughing at him.

302 paxnhymn  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:57:17am

re: #290 loppyd

Can't it be a little of both? Like Donny & Marie?

ahhh...that's mah ssweeeet lil' ol' yankee sistuh!

{loppy}

303 sojerofgod  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:57:26am

re: #283 right wing zephyr

I rest my case!

304 Just Another Four-letter Word  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:57:34am

re: #127 Killgore Trout

Evolution is not random. You guys need to update your talking points. They are too easily debunked.

Did I miss something? I was under the impression (probably from something I read) that evolution was due to random mutations....

JAFLW

305 right wing zephyr  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:57:41am

re: #297 storagemanager

I am too busy posting about the real enemy on spin-off ...to care about this topic.

Yeah well, I think thou wast created for men to breath themselves upon thee.

306 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:57:43am

re: #264 Pater Coop

Here's a cool science fact. Apparently the cavity in our bodies (under the vital organs? I was never good at Biology) is lined with many, many little open capillaries. When internal bleeding occurs, the blood drains into this cavity, where it is somehow kept fresh and oxygenated, and eventually absorbed back into the bloodstream. The Dr. who told me this said that you can even receive a slow-acting blood transfusion by injecting blood into the cavity. Thank you, God, for allowing us to evolve in such a wondrous manner!

LOL

307 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:57:44am

I told myself that this would be the day I would clean my closet.

And yet, here I sit, a cripple with a bum hand whom no ones wants to mate with.

I need a Scotch.

308 Iron Fist  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:58:05am

re: #113 Vergeltung,

It takes much more faith to believe that everything just worked out perfectly all by itself, that we just won the Life lottery as it were, than it does to believe in a Creator.

What I want to know is where is evolution taking place today? It id based on chance mutation that is significant enough to not only ensure survival, but to change the species of the survivor. Fish turn into frogs and salamanders, salamanders turn into lizards, up the chain to monkey into man. Has evolution taken a vacation?

Microevolution has been proven. The existance of mules proves a common ancestor between a horse and a donkey. It probably looked a lot like a mule, but was fertile. It didn't look like a fish. It takes a lot of faith to believe a fish and a donkey have a common ancestor.

Let alone a fish and a human.

And it doesn't stay constant. They can't even decide if homo sapiens and Neanderthals are related or seperate branches of parallel evolution. I think the latter is the current view, but they may have changed again since my college anthropology classes.

And there is where real faith comes in. The graph of human evolution from Austrolopithicine to Homo Sapiens is laughably shakey.

309 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:58:07am

re: #300 Charles

Thanks.
I have to get into that portion of it next in searches.

310 Vergeltung  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:58:10am

re: #259 dominigan

Sorry, untrue. I've been involved in the trying to get ID discussions allowed in classrooms for Ohio curriculum... simply to discuss as an alternative theory, alongside Darwinism. And you would have thought we were trying to get a conservative justice nomination through a Democratic Congress. There IS an active movement to suppress discussion of ID.

really not too hard to believe or imagine. a no brainer to conceive of the resistance of modern liberal educators to slay one of their own shibboleths.

311 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:58:16am

re: #279 Honorary Yooper

So your solution is to just not allow it to be taught at all?

Then talk about us trying to censor?

312 MandyManners  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:58:28am

re: #259 dominigan

Sorry, untrue. I've been involved in the trying to get ID discussions allowed in classrooms for Ohio curriculum... simply to discuss as an alternative theory, alongside Darwinism. And you would have thought we were trying to get a conservative justice nomination through a Democratic Congress. There IS an active movement to suppress discussion of ID.

ID is not science.

That said, I'm a Christian who believes that God created the heavens and the earth but, I also believe that He allowed His creation to take on a life of its own and to evolve.

313 Ma Sands  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:58:28am

re: #277 opnion

Influencing opinion (or opnion :) truly isn't the purpose..........opinion is to do with the mind........he's planting seeds, where they'll burrow.....

314 right wing zephyr  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:59:01am

re: #303 sojerofgod

I rest my case!

Of course you do. Aren't you the one who proved Al Gore created the world and evolution exists because of---

/ points to Soros

315 Golem Akbar  Wed, May 7, 2008 10:59:42am

re: #294 BabbaZee

Amen to that too

Here is a place where they agree with us


I had read that the Rebbe had a background in physics, and this just reaffirms that. I know that I know too little. Beyond that I get a massive headache.

316 yma o hyd  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:00:09am

re: #272 mama winger

You have to sit in the waiting room till you go nuts. Then you can post. :)

That'll be me, then :-)))

317 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:00:24am

re: #196 Mo86

It's been very sad to see LGF coming down on the side of those who would crush the discussion about ID in college classrooms (or anywhere else.)

So much for standing up for academic freedom. I never would've dreamed to see this here.

Provide some positive evidence of ID by accepted scientific standards and you will get your discussion in science classrooms. Until then you will not get any more consideration than someone suggesting that Odin created the first man and woman from the trunks of trees.

318 MandyManners  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:00:27am

re: #286 looking closely

You don't have to prove this to me.

As another example, where is the fossil record of the dog intermediate between a Doberman Pincher and a wolf?

I think even the most diehard Creationist would concede that such a dog must have existed at one point, de-fanging arguments about incomplete fossil records.

The wolf evolved into a Yorkshire Terorrist, not a pinscher.

320 Just Another Four-letter Word  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:00:35am

re: #141 buzzsawmonkey

It is well known that the only genuine healing crystals are diamonds unimpeachable color, cut and clarity.

You may be on to something, there - diamonds, especially clear and pure ones, are known to heal many a relationship...

(And the larger the stone, the better, right?)

JAFLW

321 Irish Rose  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:01:11am

re: #299 MandyManners

IS NOT! IS NOT! IS NOT!

Is too.
Neener, neener.

322 Vergeltung  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:01:24am

re: #284 Honorary Yooper

It did make it to market. It failed to stand up to the standards of evidence about 150 years ago.

really? I thought creationsim and ID were 2 seperate concepts and theories. gee whiz.

323 Roger  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:01:34am

re: #312 MandyManners

Don't forget devolution; that is allowed too. A choice kind of thing.

324 sojerofgod  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:01:40am

re: #307 mama winger
Gee mama, you fishing for something there?
Sorry, I'm taken, but im sure some of the assembled here....

325 right wing zephyr  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:01:45am
Odin created the first man and woman from the trunks of trees.

My God, your bark is beautiful. Do you moisturize?

326 MandyManners  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:01:52am

Did Adam and Eve have belly buttons? Where did Cain find his wife?

327 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:02:13am

re: #324 sojerofgod

Gee mama, you fishing for something there?
Sorry, I'm taken, but im sure some of the assembled here....

LOL! thanks - but really - I prefer the Scotch. :)

328 MandyManners  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:02:15am

re: #321 Irish Rose

Is too.
Neener, neener.

SNOT! SNOT! SNOT!

329 realwest  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:02:19am

re: #70 mama winger
Hey hi there {mama} sorry to hear about your hand, but I gotta tell ya that's one cute doggie!

330 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:02:31am

re: #311 LanceKates

So your solution is to just not allow it to be taught at all?

Then talk about us trying to censor?

It has little to do with censoring anything. Now, I don't know where your book for your class was made, but it obviously is flawed, and someone did not do a good job of critical and rational thinking while writing it. There are very well reasoned and valid arguments for people having guns, and a lot of the global warming stuff I've seen from the politicians and activists like David Suzuki are utter tripe.

Personally, I think the whole AGW stuff needs to be kept out of the classroom as well.

331 Irish Rose  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:02:38am

re: #312 MandyManners

So am I.

332 right wing zephyr  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:03:07am

re: #326 MandyManners

Did Adam and Eve have belly buttons? Where did Cain find his wife?

Powerful stuff there Mandy.

333 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:03:20am

re: #329 realwest

Hey hi there {mama} sorry to hear about your hand, but I gotta tell ya that's one cute doggie!

He is, isn't he? I think it was all part of his evil plot to get adopted. Who could resist that face ?

Answer: apparently not me. :)

334 MandyManners  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:03:44am

re: #323 Roger

Don't forget devolution; that is allowed too. A choice kind of thing.

You knew this was coming.

335 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:03:48am

re: #315 Golem Akbar

math I am clueless on
but conceptually speaking
I love that stuff

natan aviezer

I have tons of links where Science and GOD do not do war

this is a secular documentary


96% of the Universe is Missing

So...where is it?

Science!

336 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:03:53am

re: #326 MandyManners

Did Adam and Eve have belly buttons?

Yes, they had outies which is where God tied them off after he inflated them.

337 jcm  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:03:57am

re: #328 MandyManners

SNOT! SNOT! SNOT!

Children! do I have to give you a time out?
Play nice now!

338 debutaunt  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:03:59am

re: #274 Lively

I typed in Moses as a mistake and I'm still payin' for it.

Freudian Moses.

339 opnion  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:04:27am

re: #313 Ma Sands

Influencing opinion (or opnion :) truly isn't the purpose..........opinion is to do with the mind........he's planting seeds, where they'll burrow.....

Im confused. This guy was there to influence opinion. Planting seeds amounts to the same thing.
If he wasn't there to influenced opinion he should have just gone to the beach or a movie.

340 MandyManners  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:04:33am

re: #331 Irish Rose

So am I.

It's like walking on a balance beam about an inch off the ground.

341 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:04:34am

re: #330 Honorary Yooper

You wouldn't believe some of the college textbooks out there. Pure unadulterated ca-ca.

342 jcm  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:04:36am

re: #335 BabbaZee

math I am clueless on
but conceptually speaking
I love that stuff

natan aviezer

I have tons of links where Science and GOD do not do war

this is a secular documentary


96% of the Universe is Missing

So...where is it?

Science!

Where did I put the rest of the universe?
/G-d

343 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:04:57am

re: #322 Vergeltung

really? I thought creationsim and ID were 2 seperate concepts and theories. gee whiz.

Not so much as one would think. I strongly, very strongly suggest that all here (on both sides, and on the fence) read The Creationists by Ronald L. Numbers. It's a pretty good history the creation science/ID movement from the start of the movement about 150 years ago to the present day.

344 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:05:22am

re: #330 Honorary Yooper

It has little to do with censoring anything. Now, I don't know where your book for your class was made, but it obviously is flawed, and someone did not do a good job of critical and rational thinking while writing it. There are very well reasoned and valid arguments for people having guns, and a lot of the global warming stuff I've seen from the politicians and activists like David Suzuki are utter tripe.

Personally, I think the whole AGW stuff needs to be kept out of the classroom as well.

Of COURSE the book is flawed and poorly made.

That is, however, not the point.

It is what is being used and that is what people like myself gripe about.

Especially when people say that what we point out just 'doesn't exist'

Tends to let me know that they're really just not interested in looking fori t.

345 MandyManners  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:06:03am

re: #332 right wing zephyr

Powerful stuff there Mandy.

Don't chug it too fast.

346 Shug  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:06:08am

In 5 seconds I can prove to you that I can waste 5 seconds of your time

347 sojerofgod  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:06:23am

So the answer to this is for us to teach the children NOTHING AT ALL Personally I subscibe to that. Why do they get a crib sheet? When I was growing up I had to figure out the meaning of life all by myself! * No stinking teachers to give me a leg up!


*The answer is. '42'

348 MandyManners  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:06:29am

re: #336 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Yes, they had outies which is where God tied them off after he inflated them.

LOL!

349 MandyManners  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:06:42am

re: #337 jcm

Children! do I have to give you a time out?
Play nice now!

No.

350 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:06:56am

Say
where did that angry space jesus troll fly off too?
I'm hungry.

351 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:07:01am

re: #344 LanceKates

My son attends a conservative Christian college / seminary. Even some of his books he has to read with a huge grain of salt. Especially in the social sciences. crapola on a giant stick.

352 jcm  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:07:14am

re: #349 MandyManners

No.

ONE

353 Andopolis  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:07:15am

The simple facts of creationism vs evolution

Given the concept of an omnipotent being, it becomes impossible to prove either theory. An omnipotent being could have created life, the universe and everything, exactly as we know it, 42 minutes ago, and all human knowledge and memory of events before then could have been created at the same time... how are we to know otherwise?

We all could have come to be exactly as (insert religion of choice here) says we did, on the other hand the evolutionists could be pretty much right.

It all becomes a matter of faith, whether in some sort of god(s) or science. You pays your money, you takes your choice, but you can't prove that you're right.

354 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:07:34am

re: #346 Shug

Big Ot.

355 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:07:52am

re: #317 CyanSnowHawk

The film was timed to coincide with a series of "Academic Freedom" bills in about a half dozen states. I can't wait for one to pass so CAIR can get equal time in Social Studies, World history, etc.

356 right wing zephyr  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:07:54am

re: #345 MandyManners

Don't chug it too fast.

Loo tate.

357 nikis-knight  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:08:15am

re: #41 FoolsMate

You haven't seen snide comments, disregard, and condescension until you've seen the treatment atheists get from evangelists and fundies.

Here? You get that here? Do you have links?

358 yma o hyd  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:08:26am

re: #318 MandyManners

The wolf evolved into a Yorkshire Terorrist, not a pinscher.

True!

Even today one can observe the Yorkshire Terrorist terrorising all the missing links between him and the wolf!

359 MandyManners  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:08:41am

re: #352 jcm

ONE

TTTHHHHHHHHPPPPPPPPPTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT.

360 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:08:46am

Confusion now hath made his masterpiece!

361 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:08:58am

re: #351 mama winger

My son attends a conservative Christian college / seminary. Even some of his books he has to read with a huge grain of salt. Especially in the social sciences. crapola on a giant stick.

Yup.

And if it is in those "Fundie" schools, imagine the colleges that are not christian in nature.

I've had to bite my tongue often in these classes.

362 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:09:07am

re: #355 Killgore Trout

I can't wait for one to pass so CAIR can get equal time in Social Studies, World history, etc.

And you think they already don't? you haven't been paying attention.

The public school system is an indoctrination program.

363 zmdavid  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:09:13am

re: #355 Killgore Trout

The film was timed to coincide with a series of "Academic Freedom" bills in about a half dozen states. I can't wait for one to pass so CAIR can get equal time in Social Studies, World history, etc.

You mean so someone besides CAIR can get equal time?

364 MandyManners  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:09:23am

re: #355 Killgore Trout

The film was timed to coincide with a series of "Academic Freedom" bills in about a half dozen states. I can't wait for one to pass so CAIR can get equal time in Social Studies, World history, etc.

Yep.

365 sojerofgod  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:09:26am

re: #353 Andopolis

gee, did you think up that number or did you read my post first. I don't like coincidences.

I might not like you either.

Not sure yet.

366 right wing zephyr  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:09:29am

"What would the Devil do for company if it weren't for one such as I am?"

John Bunyan

367 Dotcoman  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:09:41am

re: #36 Charles

By the way, there is nothing essentially "Christian" about creationism. The Catholic Church, for example, has specifically renounced creationism (and intelligent design) and stated that Darwin's theory of evolution is not opposed to Christian faith.

There's nothing all that essentially "Christian" about the Catholic Church either.

And Genesis and the creation story are Old Testament and Jewish anyway. And they probably got the story from Zoroasterism.

368 antishock8  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:09:41am

Wow, what a rube.

369 Charles  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:09:57am

re: #259 dominigan

Sorry, untrue. I've been involved in the trying to get ID discussions allowed in classrooms for Ohio curriculum... simply to discuss as an alternative theory, alongside Darwinism. And you would have thought we were trying to get a conservative justice nomination through a Democratic Congress. There IS an active movement to suppress discussion of ID.

This is not a free speech issue. You're free to advocate for belief in intelligent design all you like, and you're free to teach it to your children if you choose. You're running into roadblocks because you're trying to define a religion-based belief as science, and teach it as science right along with legitimate tested scientific theories -- not just to your own children, but to all children. Big surprise: scientists object!

There's no grand conspiracy to silence you.

370 BulgarWheat  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:09:59am

re: #345 MandyManners

Chug it? Heck, I was trying to smoke it in the bong.

Damn, better change the bong water (once again)

371 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:10:04am

re: #325 right wing zephyr

My God, your bark is beautiful. Do you moisturize?

My argument stands, regardless of this man.

WARNING, it is not a pretty picture of an unfortunate man.

372 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:10:04am

Impertinent canker-blossom!

373 MandyManners  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:10:05am

re: #356 right wing zephyr

Loo tate.

Jiis wash oud fer de ossifers ov de lah.

374 right wing zephyr  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:10:14am

re: #365 sojerofgod

gee, did you think up that number or did you read my post first. I don't like coincidences.

...

It's a God thing.

375 jcm  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:10:21am

turtle
TURTLE
TURTLE
turtle
TURTLE
TURTLE

376 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:10:34am

re: #355 Killgore Trout

The film was timed to coincide with a series of "Academic Freedom" bills in about a half dozen states. I can't wait for one to pass so CAIR can get equal time in Social Studies, World history, etc.

I wish they were LIMITED to equal time.

Don't you remember the "Muslim Day" celebrations in CA schools? Where they set up little tents in the gym and practiced being a muslim all day, including clothing and prayers?

Can you IMAGINE someone suggesting the Christian version?

377 Irish Rose  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:10:38am

I have a client to look in on... here's hoping its' still civil when I get back.

If not, at least its' pub night tonight.

Cheers!

378 MandyManners  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:10:49am

re: #358 yma o hyd

True!

Even today one can observe the Yorkshire Terrorist terrorising all the missing links between him and the wolf!

Fiercest little beastie I've ever known.

379 jcm  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:11:21am

re: #368 antishock8

Wow, what a rube.

Finally another Hawk fan. It's been lonely.

380 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:11:34am

re: #367 Dotcoman

There's nothing all that essentially "Christian" about the Catholic Church either.

Catholics are Christians.

Boo on you for trying to stir up that old argument.

Yes, I am a protestant Christian, and I stand up for the Catholic Church.

381 Shug  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:11:42am

re: #371 CyanSnowHawk

what if your balls itched?

382 jorline  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:11:59am

Proof from HuffPo that evolution's a myth...this moron has yet to evolve into anything close to human.

From a thread talking about Jenna Bush's wedding.

lessthanimpressed See Profile I'm a Fan of lessthanimpressed
Oh Man I hope some terrorist group finds out and drives a nuclear powered death trap right into the middle of the whol texas limestone scumbaf setup and kills everyone within a thousand miles

Reply Favorite Flag as abusive Posted 08:04 AM on 05/07/2008

383 MandyManners  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:12:02am

re: #370 BulgarWheat

Chug it? Heck, I was trying to smoke it in the bong.

Damn, better change the bong water (once again)

The bong. How phallic.

*rad*

384 nikis-knight  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:12:03am

re: #36 Charles

By the way, there is nothing essentially "Christian" about creationism. The Catholic Church, for example, has specifically renounced creationism (and intelligent design) and stated that Darwin's theory of evolution is not opposed to Christian faith.

Other than the expelled flyer, there is nothing "creationist" in the picture and zombie's article that can be disbelieved and still be in anyway a "christian." All it says is, God did it. No arguements on how. I thought theistic/guided evolution was still an acceptable belief... or are we required to say, "Random chance created you, God just sort of hung around, but he loves you in a detatched, non-interventionist sort of way anyhow!"?

385 jcm  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:12:25am

re: #359 MandyManners

TTTHHHHHHHHPPPPPPPPPTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT TT.

You're a bad influence on my kids!
ROLF!

386 right wing zephyr  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:12:52am

re: #380 LanceKates

Catholics are Christians.

Boo on you for trying to stir up that old argument.

Yes, I am a protestant Christian, and I stand up for the Catholic Church.

/RWZ frantically passing out the rest of his meds.

387 lawhawk  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:12:56am

re: #192 looking closely

Most creatures may not end up creating fossil records in any event. The situation has to be within a narrow chain of events for fossils to form. re: #347 sojerofgod

I see that you're up on the catechism of the Hitchhiker's Guide.

388 debutaunt  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:13:12am

re: #346 Shug

In 5 seconds I can prove to you that I can waste 5 seconds of your time

But do you have the resolve to prove it over 8 hours?

389 snowcrash  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:13:42am

For me the only important debate is where we present the material. There are philosophy classes and religion classes and Lit classes and art classes and probably other places where ID can freely be debated, just not in science classes.

390 Shug  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:13:51am

All these questions have answers. None of us will ever know them for sure.
Perhaps when we die we will know the answers. Perhaps we won't

If there is no afterlife then we won't know that we don't know.

Either way, it doesn't matter now whether we know or not.


/ carry on fighting about it

391 Dotcoman  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:14:05am

You'd think that if evolution existed man would have evolved by now.

And all women on the planet would naturally blond, Buxom, and Blue eyed, and all the men would be hung like John Holms.

Where are all the beneficial mutations?

392 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:14:36am

re: #362 mama winger

No CAIR has no significant say in schools curriculum, although they do occasionally sneak something in. But we can resist. With an "Academic Freedom" bill in place there will be no recourse if a teacher wants to teach an Islamic version of world history, social studies or science. I even suspect the Islamists would get more mileage out of those "academic freedom" bills than the Christians.

393 Shug  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:14:42am

re: #388 debutaunt

But do you have the resolve to prove it over 8 hours?


Nope.
I'd rather drink beer and watch sports

394 BulgarWheat  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:14:51am

re: #391 Dotcoman

Eh, where do you live? We got all that down here in North Carolina. I thought everyone did.

395 Cap'n DOC  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:15:03am

re: #326 MandyManners

Funny you should mention that. I read a Rolling Stone article in about 1970 whose title was Who Was Is the Man of the Shroud and subtitled Why Does He Have No Navel.

The story was about the (new at that time) study of the Shroud of Turin.

396 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:15:03am

I don't know. When I went to school, I don't remember evolution being taught to the exclusion of all other discussion. Of course, this was before there was fire. so things may have changed.

397 right wing zephyr  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:15:27am

re: #390 Shug

We don't even know what we don't know. HOw could we possibly know what Stein doesn't know?

398 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:15:51am

re: #369 Charles

You are adamant that Creationism and ID are one and the same thing

I do not see it that way
and neither do a ton of people including Antony Flew and many other credentialed academics
scientists
and thinkers
not just Big feral Ots like me

Yes
there are "creationists" and religionists co-opting ID.
No doubt.
However -
This is not the same thing
as creationism and ID being the same thing.
This is sort of analogous to saying Darwinsim and Eugenics are the same thing.

The deception is on all sides, not only one.

Herein lies the stumbling block as far as "debate " is concerned IMO.

399 MandyManners  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:15:58am

re: #391 Dotcoman

You'd think that if evolution existed man would have evolved by now.

And all women on the planet would naturally blond, Buxom, and Blue eyed, and all the men would be hung like John Holms.

Where are all the beneficial mutations?

That's presuming that big-titted, blue-eyed blonde women and men with big dicks are the end-all and be-all.

400 yma o hyd  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:15:58am

re: #375 jcm

turtle
TURTLE
TURTLE
turtle
TURTLE
TURTLE

I do love that story!

401 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:16:15am

re: #392 Killgore Trout

No CAIR has no significant say in schools curriculum, although they do occasionally sneak something in. But we can resist. With an "Academic Freedom" bill in place there will be no recourse if a teacher wants to teach an Islamic version of world history, social studies or science. I even suspect the Islamists would get more mileage out of those "academic freedom" bills than the Christians.

I went to a public school that allowed a witch to talk about being a witch and the joys of witchdom, but did not allow christian youth preachers to help talk with kids after a student died.

Tell me again how Christians are not being discriminated against?

402 MandyManners  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:16:31am

Oh, shit.

403 formercorpsman  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:16:32am

I will only add a small snippet as to the discussion.

Being in a discipline that sees an evolutionary process occur on a daily basis, (fracture healing, etc.) I can say there is an evolutionary process.

However, the ID movement does have a bend to counter puritanical evolutionism, by describing as equal time for theory.

I don't care either way.

Nonetheless, for everyone making an argument that somehow science is irrefutable, moreover, the honesty among purveyors in the field responsible for irrefutably, you are wrong.

The process is irrefutable, no doubt.

But sitting on one side, claiming ID is politicizing what is an otherwise wholesome scientific existence is absurd.

The business of science has become a political animal, just as much as anything else in this country, and to think somehow there are pure professionals in the scientific realm not placing their own ideology above the scientific process is bullshit.

Absolute bullshit.

Global warming.

The problem is, it goes both ways. Just like everything, the possibility of gaining a monopoly limits honest acuity.

404 loppyd  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:16:33am

re: #302 paxnhymn

ahhh...that's mah ssweeeet lil' ol' yankee sistuh!

{loppy}

In all honesty I can't speak intellgiently about the topic - I just don't know enough about it.

405 sojerofgod  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:16:58am

re: #387 lawhawk

Well of course.

Trivia is more important than reality. You can't affect reality, but you can have lots of fun with trivia while waiting for the end!

406 BulgarWheat  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:16:58am

re: #398 BabbaZee

Yep, that nicely sums it up.

Whenever two sides collide, you'll usually find the answer in the wreckage.

407 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:17:02am

re: #392 Killgore Trout

Respectfully, you seem unaware of what is being taught in the public school curriculum.

408 paxnhymn  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:17:11am

re: #380 LanceKates

Catholics are Christians.

Boo on you for trying to stir up that old argument.

Yes, I am a protestant Christian, and I stand up for the Catholic Church.

That's opening up a whole other can o' worms....


Yikes!

409 Pope Insouciance IV  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:17:22am

If you all will promise to be nice to each other for a while, I'll tell you a true story of college shenanigans.

OK? Everybody settled down? Remember, no touching your neighbor. This happened many years ago at Rutgers University, on the main campus in New Brunswick, NJ. The classroom buildings were often used for night classes and remained open, and there were plenty of empty classrooms. An article appeared in the student newspaper soliciting women for a psychology study: fill out a questionnaire and earn five bucks (which was reasonable pay in the 70's). Just show up at such-and-such a room at this time, etc.

A number of young ladies responded. They were met by a young man who handed them the questionnaire. The first thing they noticed was that the questions were of a highly personal nature. They objected. Hey, he says, the questionnaires are all anonymous.
So they start to answer the questions.
All of a sudden the guy starts to disrobe. The ladies ask him what's going on? He says Sorry, this is part of the psychology experiment. I have to do this.
Well, they had plenty of goofy psych experiments at Rutgers, so they go back to the questionnaire.
Then they notice that the guy has started to *ahem* "choke the chicken."
This is to much for the ladies. They give him his questionnaires and demand their five bucks.
He doesn't have any money.
And so they go straight to the Dean, demanding their money and by the way, how could you let a psych experiment go on like that?
And the Dean says (altogether now) What psych experiment?

Turns out he was a freelancing Philosophy major in great need of professional help. Never did find out what happened to him, but he didn't graduate with the rest of us.

410 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:17:25am

re: #397 right wing zephyr

We don't even know what we don't know. HOw could we possibly know what Stein doesn't know?

Don't ask me.
I don't know.

411 Shug  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:17:51am

re: #397 right wing zephyr

We don't even know what we don't know. HOw could we possibly know what Stein doesn't know?

exactly.
Stein can think whatever he wants. It doesn't effect me, not 0.0000001%.
I have my own beliefs. I don't need to know other's feelings about things. None of us can prove anything to anybody else's satisfaction. IF people want to debate it, that's their business.

I'd rather focus on the maniacs who want to cut my throat and not worry so much about whether or not God made a horse or if it evolved from swamp gas.

412 Vergeltung  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:17:55am

re: #391 Dotcoman

unless that was a sad attempt at humor, that was one of the more moronic posts I have seen in my time here so far....

413 snowcrash  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:18:16am

re: #396 mama winger
Mama, your new puppy looks like it should be in a Disney kids movie. Too cute! (might have to invest in those sticky tape lint rollers though)

414 nyc redneck  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:18:27am

well, anyway, on a lighter note i planted spinach, turnips, beets, loose leaf lettuce and arugula this morning. yes, arugula. i put it in it's own special area and now call that part of the garden, the osama section. that is where all elitist greens will be planted.

415 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:18:29am

re: #353 Andopolis

The simple facts of creationism vs evolution

Given the concept of an omnipotent being, it becomes impossible to prove either theory. An omnipotent being could have created life, the universe and everything, exactly as we know it, 42 minutes ago, and all human knowledge and memory of events before then could have been created at the same time... how are we to know otherwise?

We all could have come to be exactly as (insert religion of choice here) says we did, on the other hand the evolutionists could be pretty much right.

It all becomes a matter of faith, whether in some sort of god(s) or science. You pays your money, you takes your choice, but you can't prove that you're right.

I read your whole post in 5 seconds.

416 right wing zephyr  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:18:29am

re: #399 MandyManners

That's presuming that big-titted, blue-eyed blonde women and men with big dicks are the end-all and be-all.

Yes. Before we can evolve to this we have to agree where to evolve to.

It's a big hard, hard and writhing discussion. It's going to take some sampling and time.

417 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:18:35am

re: #396 mama winger

I don't know. When I went to school, I don't remember evolution being taught to the exclusion of all other discussion. Of course, this was before there was fire. so things may have changed.

In high school (lutheran) we discussed both the science of evolution and the science of creation.

We didn't look at it from the Christian Story of Creation, just what evidence exists that things evolved and what evidence exists that suggest that evolution isn't the way it went.

My college, I didn't take biology, just Ecology (yes, a girl was part of my reasoning there.) so I don't know what they taught.

I have NO problem believing in microevolution... macro? eh. no.

418 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:18:35am

re: #382 jorline

Proof from HuffPo that evolution's a myth...this moron has yet to evolve into anything close to human.

From a thread talking about Jenna Bush's wedding.

lessthanimpressed See Profile I'm a Fan of lessthanimpressed
Oh Man I hope some terrorist group finds out and drives a nuclear powered death trap right into the middle of the whol texas limestone scumbaf setup and kills everyone within a thousand miles

Reply Favorite Flag as abusive Posted 08:04 AM on 05/07/2008

Well, there is your example of a failed mutation.

419 sojerofgod  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:18:37am

re: #399 MandyManners

They're not?

420 Vergeltung  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:18:42am

re: #392 Killgore Trout

No CAIR has no significant say in schools curriculum, although they do occasionally sneak something in. But we can resist. With an "Academic Freedom" bill in place there will be no recourse if a teacher wants to teach an Islamic version of world history, social studies or science. I even suspect the Islamists would get more mileage out of those "academic freedom" bills than the Christians.

in that regard, I believe you are correct. (BTW, love the new avatar!)

421 jamsler  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:18:54am

re: #250 BabbaZee

If I carry nothing else out or this thread, at least I'll have a link to that!

422 maninthemiddle  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:19:07am

It's one of those "can't we have both" things.

There are ample examples of evolution - but not complete.

A few years ago (I've got the article stuffed on my computer somewhere) a group of scientists met in Britain. Knowing the difficulty in proving a negative, they sought scientific explanations for getting from A to Now - running the odds of various genome recombinates, etc.

Ultimately, they concluded that some force beyond those known had to lend a helping hand.

Most simply acknowledged "the force" but discarded monotheistic explanations of the mysterious force.

A few (some grudgingly, some less so) pointed to (gasp) you know who...

The point being - as Charles mentioned - one can be very comfortable with God being the force behind creation, and acknowledging evolution as one of the forces that are ongoing.

423 WriterMom  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:19:08am

re: #409 Pope Insouciance IV

What is the point of your story?

424 Ma Sands  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:19:12am

re: #339 opnion

Don't be confused....just don't give up wondering --that's a good starting place..... :)

425 Shug  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:19:37am

re: #375 jcm

turtle
TURTLE
TURTLE
turtle
TURTLE
TURTLE


Turtles indeed!

426 wolfie  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:19:44am

re: #36 Charles

By the way, there is nothing essentially "Christian" about creationism. The Catholic Church, for example, has specifically renounced creationism (and intelligent design) and stated that Darwin's theory of evolution is not opposed to Christian faith.

I'm very late to this thread, so someone has probably said this earlier.
The Catholic Church has said that evolutionary theory should be taken today as scientific fact and it should continue to be taught in Catholic schools as such.
The Catholic Church does not endorse "Creation Science."
The Catholic Church sees no reason at this time to teach ID theories in a science curriculum.
The Catholic Church emphatically and unreservedly believes that God created the universe and that it was the intelligent design of the Creator. When folks continually (sometimes even intentionally) confuse the philosophical or pseudo-scientific theories of Creatonism and ID with the belief in the Creator, they muddy the issue horribly.

Protestants,....Mama!.... please hear me!

427 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:19:52am

re: #406 BulgarWheat

Yep, that nicely sums it up.

Whenever two sides collide, you'll usually find the answer in the wreckage.

I have a saying -
tear it all up
and then divide by 17

428 zmdavid  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:20:03am

re: #398 BabbaZee
Some of the creation scientists might have actually changed there minds (to intelligent design) because of evidence that contradicted their earlier beliefs.

"Scientists" say it is impossible for creationists to change their minds, they are actually practicing deception.

429 OldLineTexan  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:20:13am

re: #402 MandyManners

Oh, shit.

Oops, there go all of our attaboys for one day.

430 yochanan  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:20:21am

G-D wrote the Torah/bible in the lang. people of the time would understand. A lot of it is metaphor and stories to teach us how to behave. An example would be G-D clearly knew we would be able to fly and go to the moon but if he told the people back then i doubt they would have a clue what he was talking about.

how can a finite being understand the infinite? we look at human history and wonder how they believed what they believed only a few hundred years ago wonder if the people a few centuries from now will say the same thing about us?

431 Silhouette  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:20:32am

re: #414 nyc redneck

well, anyway, on a lighter note i planted spinach, turnips, beets, loose leaf lettuce and arugula this morning. yes, arugula. i put it in it's own special area and now call that part of the garden, the osama section. that is where all elitist greens will be planted.

Did you mean obama?

;-)

432 BulgarWheat  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:20:37am

re: #427 BabbaZee

don't make me fetch the calculator, wench!

433 snowcrash  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:20:37am

re: #414 nyc redneck
That is segregation!

434 paxnhymn  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:20:38am

re: #412 Vergeltung

unless that was a sad attempt at humor, that was one of the more moronic posts I have seen in my time here so far....

short though it may be......

435 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:20:43am

re: #413 snowcrash

Mama, your new puppy looks like it should be in a Disney kids movie. Too cute! (might have to invest in those sticky tape lint rollers though)

Yep. got lots of those on hand just in case :)

436 jcm  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:20:44am

re: #408 paxnhymn

That's opening up a whole other can o' worms....


Yikes!

We've had some nasty ones over that.

Which I prefer not to revisit.

437 looking closely  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:21:22am

re: #295 LanceKates

My Science book discusses evolution in every chapter, even those discussing physics.

Yet I am to believe that no one is trying to ignore Creationism or any variation of ID?

The theory of evolution has broad application outside of explaining just the origin of species, including application to economics and design (among others). I'm sure you could apply it to electoral politics, in fact.

So, this *ought* to come up from time to time in non-species settings (though I'd agree not in EVERY chapter).

438 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:21:31am

re: #428 zmdavid

Some of the creation scientists might have actually changed there minds (to intelligent design) because of evidence that contradicted their earlier beliefs.

"Scientists" say it is impossible for creationists to change their minds, they are actually practicing deception.

All sides are practicing deception based on identity politics
and the truth is squeezed between
it is always like this

but you were right before
it is more about power

439 wolfie  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:21:34am

re: #339 opnion

Im confused. This guy was there to influence opinion. Planting seeds amounts to the same thing.
If he wasn't there to influenced opinion he should have just gone to the beach or a movie.

True. But a lot of protesters are there mainly for the attention!

440 paxnhymn  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:21:52am

re: #423 WriterMom

What is the point of your story?


they didn't let the guy "finish the job"......


/ducks


:-D

441 OldLineTexan  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:21:59am

re: #414 nyc redneck

well, anyway, on a lighter note i planted spinach, turnips, beets, loose leaf lettuce and arugula this morning. yes, arugula. i put it in it's own special area and now call that part of the garden, the osama section. that is where all elitist greens will be planted.

You and Kennedy both need to deal with your free association patterns.

/

442 Charles  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:22:05am

re: #398 BabbaZee

You are adamant that Creationism and ID are one and the same thing...

Actually, no, I'm not. They're clearly different in the details.

And that's on purpose, because the intelligent design "movement" was very explicitly designed to supplant the discredited "creationism."

I know there are some (very few) scientists who claim to be doing research into ID. If you can point me at one of these researchers whose work has been peer reviewed without being thoroughly debunked, it will be news to me.

443 right wing zephyr  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:22:16am

re: #426 wolfie

Be gone! Thou frothy fly-bitten ratsbane!

444 paxnhymn  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:22:22am

re: #436 jcm

We've had some nasty ones over that.

Which I prefer not to revisit.


one can see why...from both sides!

445 yma o hyd  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:22:32am

re: #392 Killgore Trout

No CAIR has no significant say in schools curriculum, although they do occasionally sneak something in. But we can resist. With an "Academic Freedom" bill in place there will be no recourse if a teacher wants to teach an Islamic version of world history, social studies or science. I even suspect the Islamists would get more mileage out of those "academic freedom" bills than the Christians.

Thats absolutely frightening - but may well be the consequence, even if unintentional.

Ths whole debate is like two people argueing about which recipe is right for the Sunday Roast - while outside the house is surrounded by blokes with machineguns, ready to attack ...

Sorry - stupid comparison, but you (hopefully) get my drift ...

446 opnion  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:22:32am

re: #367 Dotcoman

There's nothing all that essentially "Christian" about the Catholic Church either.

And Genesis and the creation story are Old Testament and Jewish anyway. And they probably got the story from Zoroasterism.

What? There is nothing all that essentially Christian about the Catholic church?
Why then all of the devotion to Jesus Christ & Crucifixes in Catholic Churches?

447 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:22:37am

re: #421 jamsler

LOL, Thou weedy guts-griping pumpion!

448 sojerofgod  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:22:58am

re: #416 right wing zephyr

Hmmm.

I'd like to 'evolve' about 4 nights a week.

These days it more like 4 a month though.

Filthy Lucre! thou stabbest my love life with thy sword of greed!

449 jcm  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:23:11am
450 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:23:12am

re: #426 wolfie

The Catholic Church emphatically and unreservedly believes that God created the universe and that it was the intelligent design of the Creator. When folks continually (sometimes even intentionally) confuse the philosophical or pseudo-scientific theories of Creatonism and ID with the belief in the Creator, they muddy the issue horribly.

Protestants,....Mama!.... please hear me!

I do. And it is as I expected. The Catholic Church does NOT go back on the doctrinal teaching of the Church, and upholds God as Creator.

Thank you. :)

451 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:23:12am

re: #391 Dotcoman

You'd think that if evolution existed man would have evolved by now.

And all women on the planet would naturally blond, Buxom, and Blue eyed, and all the men would be hung like John Holms.

Where are all the beneficial mutations?

Have you compared us to the other branches of the Hominid line?
All of our women develop permanently inflated breasts and we are all hung like John Holmes, but I prefer brunettes. (Disclaimer: Your mileage may vary.)

452 debutaunt  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:23:28am

re: #389 snowcrash

For me the only important debate is where we present the material. There are philosophy classes and religion classes and Lit classes and art classes and probably other places where ID can freely be debated, just not in science classes.

I learned to think in Lit class. We used a book called Eight Great Tragedies. The final exam gave 50% to the question of what made these particular eight tragedies great. The correct answer was the editor of the book.

453 Kenneth  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:23:48am

re: #335 BabbaZee

96% of the Universe is Missing

So...where is it?

Science!

My theory is that the missing matter consists of socks. Billions and billions of socks which disapear into a black hole hidden inside every dryer in the world. I'm sure somewhere in deep space are entire galaxies made of socks.

454 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:23:54am

re: #437 looking closely

The theory of evolution has broad application outside of explaining just the origin of species, including application to economics and design (among others). I'm sure you could apply it to electoral politics, in fact.

So, this *ought* to come up from time to time in non-species settings (though I'd agree not in EVERY chapter).

But, that it does kind of explains the crankiness that people such as myself express.

It is, also, what is ignored by those wanting to belittle Creationists.

455 paxnhymn  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:23:59am

re: #446 opnion

What? There is nothing all that essentially Christian about the Catholic church?
Why then all of the devotion to Jesus Christ & Crucifixes in Catholic Churches?


whooooa! Whooooa! Let's let that one go folks, on all sides...that's flame war material......Please!

456 Roger  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:24:22am

re: #401 LanceKates

Lance it doesn't matter. Just for a little insight I'm often sitting here laughing my ass off over what I read and noting predictability in it all...

457 skaught  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:24:30am

I'm really confused by a lot of statements made here. It seems like there are varying definitions of what "Intelligent Design" is, and people are arguing/discussing these from different definitions, leading to a lot of misunderstand. Intelligent Design is not the belief that God created the world 6,000 years ago (though some do believe this). It's simply the belief that God had a hand in the creation of the universe. HOW and WHEN that was done is another matter completely. The Theory of Evolution in NO WAY contradicts Intelligent Design.

I don't object to the teaching of evolution. What I object to is the teaching that the universe exists solely through naturalistic (non-super natural) means. This is indeed taught as fact in many places. Since, as many anti-Intelligent Designers will be quick to point out, you can't use the scientific method to prove the supernatural, it's absurd to claim that you can disprove the supernatural with the same. It's a bit ironic that Descartes, the father of the scientific method, was a devout Christian, I think. Personally, I don't see any contradiction with the Biblical account of creation and current scientific understandings (which could change tomorrow, of course). For example, the word used for "day" in Genesis to describe the first several days of creation is "yom", a word that can also be used to describe an indefinite period of time. But that's a discussion for another place.

As for the Catholic church rejecting Intelligent Design? When did it reject that God had a hand in the creation of the universe? Last I understood, they hadn't tossed out the first chapter of the Bible. This statement indicates there is a lot of misunderstanding as to what the term "Intelligent Design" means. Unless you're an atheist, what's the problem with believing God directed the creation of the universe and life in it, through whatever method he chose?

458 realwest  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:24:30am

Well I are impress - conversation out here so far (I've only read up to #369) has been remarkably civil, given the topic.
However, something more immediate comes my way: LUNCH!
See y'all later, I hope!

459 Endangered in MASS  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:24:47am

re: #250 BabbaZee

I go this. ....


Thou spleeny toad-spotted boar-pig!

460 debutaunt  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:25:02am

re: #393 Shug

Nope.
I'd rather drink beer and watch sports

My hero!

461 opnion  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:25:25am

re: #439 wolfie

True. But a lot of protesters are there mainly for the attention!


I take your point, but do you really think that this guy thought that he would inluence thought at Berkley? If he did he should not be out without adult supervision.

462 Chuck Pelto  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:25:43am

TO: Charles Johnson
RE: Slow News Day?

Are these people as dangerous as Code Pink or ANSWER?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. The guy with the sign may have the proof. The problem is whether others will accept it. But that's always been the case.....

463 jcm  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:25:48am

re: #444 paxnhymn

one can see why...from both sides!

I got some nasty swipes for defending Mormons. (My Christian doctrine is so fundamental a lot of mainstream Christians don't like it) heh.

464 Ma Sands  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:25:51am

re: #400 yma o hyd

re: #375 jcm

turtle
TURTLE
TURTLE
turtle
TURTLE
TURTLE

I do love that story!


LI-I-I-INK ! ! !

(Please? :)

465 looking closely  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:26:09am

re: #391 Dotcoman

You'd think that if evolution existed man would have evolved by now.

And all women on the planet would naturally blond, Buxom, and Blue eyed, and all the men would be hung like John Holms.

Where are all the beneficial mutations?


Having blonde hair and blue eyes is a major liability if you have to live in Equatorial Africa. You and your lineage would die out of skin cancer.

Dark skin in that setting *IS* beneficial.

(I'm not even going to get into breast or genital size).

466 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:26:14am

re: #446 opnion

What? There is nothing all that essentially Christian about the Catholic church?
Why then all of the devotion to Jesus Christ & Crucifixes in Catholic Churches?

Shh... Details!

*grin*

I do believe that there is a large number of professing Catholics who are NOT christian, but attend as a part of culture (probably most common in the Central American and African cultures where one calls themselves Catholic but practices voodoo of some sort.).... but that is not an issue with the Catholic Church, just one of people saying they are what they are not.

but to say that the Catholic Church is not Christian? Pfft.

467 paxnhymn  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:27:02am

Me doth think thee fecal excrement may soon ascendeth towards yon fan!

468 missouri boy  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:27:07am

From the book "Politically Incorrect Science" the question is asked,
"Name one thing about the theory of evolution, you know for a fact ,is true?" crickets
Darwin said 150 years ago...that fossils will prove evolution true.
So far, we are still looking for that first fossil. just saying.

469 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:27:24am

re: #456 Roger

Lance it doesn't matter. Just for a little insight I'm often sitting here laughing my ass off over what I read and noting predictability in it all...

I imagine I should do more of that myself.

Just one less place to turn for refuge.

470 MandyManners  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:27:28am

re: #465 looking closely

Having blonde hair and blue eyes is a major liability if you have to live in Equatorial Africa. You and your lineage would die out of skin cancer.

Dark skin in that setting *IS* beneficial.

(I'm not even going to get into breast or genital size).

You're no fun.

471 Carolyn  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:27:48am

re: #77 Pastorius

That's ok with me if you don't believe in God. It's not my fault you're going to hell.

///sarc off

Seinfeld : "It's gonna be rough."

472 Dianna  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:28:16am

re: #442 Charles

I do not see how god is susceptible to experimentation. It's equivalent to treating prayer as magic, or verses from scripture as charms.

Or, more unhappily, accusing people of witchcraft - an impossible crime.

473 MandyManners  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:28:19am

re: #468 missouri boy

From the book "Politically Incorrect Science" the question is asked,
"Name one thing about the theory of evolution, you know for a fact ,is true?" crickets
Darwin said 150 years ago...that fossils will prove evolution true.
So far, we are still looking for that first fossil. just saying.

Fossils aside, what about sickle-cell anemia and malaria?

474 Shug  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:28:38am

Forget evolution.

Let's talk revolution, or rather lack of.

The knuckleball : when it's working. It cannot be hit.

Discuss

475 Golem Akbar  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:28:40am

Charles, are you trying to flush out the neo-nazis with this thread?

476 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:28:45am

re: #391 Dotcoman

You'd think that if evolution existed man would have evolved by now.

And all women on the planet would naturally blond, Buxom, and Blue eyed, and all the men would be hung like John Holms.

Where are all the beneficial mutations?

Evolution tends to work fastest in small isolated populations. With nearly 7Billion humans traveling all over the extent of our habitat, it has pretty much slowed to a crawl, not to mention that our reasoning capacity sometimes stands in direct conflict with adaptation to environment and allows many to continue breeding that would not have survived to maturity in a more difficult time.

477 Roger  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:29:02am

re: #442 Charles

Debunking is overrated.

478 Vergeltung  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:29:15am

re: #423 WriterMom

What is the point of your story?

don't whip it out unless you have the five bucks?

479 nyc redneck  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:29:29am

re: #389 snowcrash

For me the only important debate is where we present the material. There are philosophy classes and religion classes and Lit classes and art classes and probably other places where ID can freely be debated, just not in science classes.

i agree w/ that. i feel that religion and religious values are very important. i think they should be taught in the church and be part of theology studies in education but not part of science.
also it's worth noting, that europe is full of godless people (except for moslems) and islam is making great strides there. when religion falls by the wayside, many people lose their way.

480 sojerofgod  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:29:31am

re: #451 CyanSnowHawk

So now you make snarky remarks about our simian brothers!

It's not their fault they are underendowed in the manhood (monkeyhood?) department. Scientist tell us (Oh, It MUST be true!) that gorillas are monogamous, so they have no need for a display-sized unit.
This implies also that it's all the women's fault. if they weren't such window-shoppers when it came to said units, men would be able to cross their legs in comfort....

481 looking closely  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:29:39am

re: #454 LanceKates

But, that it does kind of explains the crankiness that people such as myself express.

It is, also, what is ignored by those wanting to belittle Creationists.


I've never seen any scientific textbook referring to evolution in every chapter, not even biology ones, and I've read quite a few of them.

482 jcm  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:29:45am
483 Render  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:30:02am

Every time this subject comes up I'm reminded of why I'm glad I don't have a college education.

MUCH
ADO
ABOUT,
R

484 snowcrash  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:30:04am

If breast size is so important than plastic surgery augmentation is corrupting natural selection for the trait. just sayin'

485 Shug  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:30:13am

re: #473 MandyManners

Fossils aside, what about sickle-cell anemia and malaria?


It's less effective than DDT

486 Dianna  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:30:28am

re: #317 CyanSnowHawk

Did you know that Odin had ancestors?

487 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:30:50am

re: #481 looking closely

I've never seen any scientific textbook referring to evolution in every chapter, not even biology ones, and I've read quite a few of them.

Point?

488 opnion  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:30:56am

re: #466 LanceKates

Shh... Details!

*grin*

I do believe that there is a large number of professing Catholics who are NOT christian, but attend as a part of culture (probably most common in the Central American and African cultures where one calls themselves Catholic but practices voodoo of some sort.).... but that is not an issue with the Catholic Church, just one of people saying they are what they are not.

but to say that the Catholic Church is not Christian? Pfft.


Well said

489 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:31:16am

re: #457 skaught

I don't object to the teaching of evolution. What I object to is the teaching that the universe exists solely through naturalistic (non-super natural) means.


Science's sole purpose is to study natural law, supernatural explanations have no place in science and they never will. I think it's surprising that so many people understand so little about about science that they want it altered to accommodate religious beliefs. This is the exact same approach Al-Ghazali used to destroy the Islamic world in the 11th century. The rejection of imperical philosophies and godless blasphemy, and the inclusion of religion into scientific thought. It's a disastrous line of thinking.

490 MandyManners  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:31:16am

re: #485 Shug

It's less effective than DDT

*ouch*

Seriously, from what I recall, the disease is an attempt to withstand malaria.

491 Cap'n DOC  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:31:30am

re: #363 zmdavid

About the time Christianity gets equal time in Saudi Arabia is the time it ought to get it here.

492 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:31:30am

re: #442 Charles

Actually, no, I'm not. They're clearly different in the details.

And that's on purpose, because the intelligent design "movement" was very explicitly designed to supplant the discredited "creationism."

I know there are some (very few) scientists who claim to be doing research into ID. If you can point me at one of these researchers whose work has been peer reviewed without being thoroughly debunked, it will be news to me.

The entire B'or HaTorah project is peer reviewed.
There are other places that I have found that are peer reviewed - and all I keep getting from people is those peers do not qualify some how in their book, anything remotely connected to any name connected to Discovery Institute gets tossed, but meantime I still haven't found definitive corroborated proof that that is a good or necessary reaction to Discovery Institute itself or to all of the scientists publishing there.

I knew a professor 25 years ago who was having a problem in Academia based on this so subject I am a little bit fish eyed when it comes to people saying that Science professionals are not discredited in Academia for their political or religious views.

What he was telling me about 25 years ago seems to have been the nascent stages of what is blowing up here today, although back then I really did not understand the depth of it politically speaking.


Gerald Schroeder (his work is what convinced Antony Flew)

Behe - Darwin's Black Box

493 nyc redneck  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:31:38am

re: #433 snowcrash

That is segregation!

none of the vegetables will go to the hrc. only the gov't could be a problem.

494 Silhouette  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:31:59am

re: #461 opnion

I take your point, but do you really think that this guy thought that he would inluence thought at Berkley? If he did he should not be out without adult supervision.

That he would change the overall Berkeley groupthink? Of course not.

Could he reach one or two people searching for God? Maybe. Many of these young people are looking for meaning in life, and filling up that void with leftism, victimism, Marxism, whining, rebeling against whatever, etc. when perhaps what they are really trying to fill is a God-shaped hole.

495 MandyManners  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:32:18am

bbiab

496 Milk Toast Intolerant  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:32:19am

This is so much fun to read and ponder, but it won't get us anywhere. Alas, work calls and I gotta jet. Play nice, lizards.

497 Cap'n DOC  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:32:38am

re: #399 MandyManners

They ain't? Who knew?

498 wolfie  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:32:44am

And by the way...the tree w/ the forbidden fruit in Genesis was not the "tree of knowledge." It was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I am told that the word for "knowledge" here means knowledge, but also connotes experience.

499 hayseed  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:32:46am

re: #435 mama winger

hey mama winger my daughter went to the Reds Cubs game today

500 Shug  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:32:48am

re: #490 MandyManners

*ouch*

Seriously, from what I recall, the disease is an attempt to withstand malaria.


True, there is some natural immunity to the plasmodium species which cause malaria.


and another side effect is priapism.......which can't hurt your chances with the ladies

501 nyc redneck  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:32:50am

re: #474 Shug

Forget evolution.

Let's talk revolution, or rather lack of.

The knuckleball : when it's working. It cannot be hit.

Discuss

yes, but it's hard to throw, too.

502 Golem Akbar  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:32:51am

re: #484 snowcrash

If breast size is so important than plastic surgery augmentation is corrupting natural selection for the trait. just sayin'


Well, women do use makeup, and men do shave and shower. How's that for natural selection? Or, as some would say, survival of the fittest.

503 looking closely  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:32:54am

re: #473 MandyManners

Fossils aside, what about sickle-cell anemia and malaria?

What about methicillin-resistant staph aureus?

Were those invented de-novo by God right after humans invented second generation antibiotics?

Again, evolution doesn't contradict the idea of a creator, but it *DOES* explain and unify a wide variety of disparate facts.

504 Ma Sands  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:33:10am

re: #482 jcm

Thank you. :)

505 Ben Hur  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:33:18am

The BBC's Birthday Present to Israel

The events leading up to the creation of the modern-day State of Israel exactly 60 years ago have been examined and re-examined by qualified historians. So why was Jeremy Bowen given the responsibility of producing the BBC's one-hour documentary "The Birth of Israel" broadcast on May 4, 2008? (Available to view online only in the UK. This program, may, however, be broadcast internationally at a future date.)

Lies upon lies.

506 captainzot  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:33:31am

I can be an evolutionary biologist... since I understand the principle of the tautology and I have a great imagination I can explain ANYTHING using evolution. And if you question my explanations I'll just call you an ignoramous who doesn't understand science and look around at my fellow superiorly evolved monkeys and snicker. We can compare our possibly drug induced ideas about how such and such thing evolved and comment on how remarkable and insightful that we are. If there is no evidence to contradict our ideas (or even if there is, we can just call it an Anomally) we can come up with great explanations for why these things happened. Then Jesus hating rich guys can shower us with money for coming up with these ingenious fantasies that provide a salve for their conciences and provide them with a way out of ever being judged for the things they've done in secret.


I guess it is too much to ask for the new athiest crowd to have a little humility. That would entail that they had some wisdom.

507 Kenneth  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:33:49am

What is so intelligent about designing a universe that looks like it evolved but didn't?

What is so intelligent about creating a world with layers of fossils of sequential ages which look like the creatures they came from evolved, if they didn't actually evolve?

What is so intelligent about a design that looks like it evolved?

508 zmdavid  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:33:52am

Personal beliefs should not matter in science. But they do.

509 Roger  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:33:55am

re: #492 BabbaZee

Behe has a latest one that is a must read. The Edge of Evolution. Anybody who claims to debunk it without putting in the research and computation is ..well ya know...

510 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:34:03am

re: #401 LanceKates

I went to a public school that allowed a witch to talk about being a witch and the joys of witchdom, but did not allow christian youth preachers to help talk with kids after a student died.

Tell me again how Christians are not being discriminated against?

The Christian was attempting minister to the children after a traumatic event, while the Witch was telling them what being a Witch was. A Christian would (should) have been allowed to describe what being a Christian was and the joys of Christiandom. (Assuming the ACLU didn't get wind of it)

511 Shug  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:34:08am

re: #501 nyc redneck

yes, but it's hard to throw, too.


I watched a masterful performance last night. Tim Wakefield's knuckler was dancing around like a chicken with his head cut off

512 WriterMom  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:34:23am

re: #502 Golem Akbar

Finally! Make up-now there's a topic I could spend 5 seconds on...

514 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:34:44am

re: #498 wolfie

And by the way...the tree w/ the forbidden fruit in Genesis was not the "tree of knowledge." It was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I am told that the word for "knowledge" here means knowledge, but also connotes experience.

It wasn't that they gained the knowledge of Good and Evil that made Adam and Eve sinful.

It is that they were given only ONE instruction and they failed.

The fruit did nothing. However, their inability to follow ONE command gave them the knowledge of what it means to be sinful... by becoming sinful.

Sin isn't a quantity, it is a quality.

515 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:34:45am

re: #509 Roger

Behe has a latest one that is a must read. The Edge of Evolution. Anybody who claims to debunk it without putting in the research and computation is ..well ya know...

Thanks ~

516 looking closely  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:35:17am

re: #487 LanceKates

Point?


The point is, if your "Science" book *does* talk about evolution in every chapter, thats highly unusual to the point of being exceptional.

What is the name of the book and who is its author?

517 opnion  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:35:19am

re: #494 Silhouette

That he would change the overall Berkeley groupthink? Of course not.

Could he reach one or two people searching for God? Maybe. Many of these young people are looking for meaning in life, and filling up that void with leftism, victimism, Marxism, whining, rebeling against whatever, etc. when perhaps what they are really trying to fill is a God-shaped hole.

Rather than reaching anybody searching for God, he was much more likely to look like a nut & hurt Christianity

518 wolfie  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:35:22am

re: #461 opnion

I take your point, but do you really think that this guy thought that he would inluence thought at Berkley? If he did he should not be out without adult supervision.

Good point!

519 WriterMom  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:35:35am

Blessed are the deoderants, indoor plumbing and cosmetics.

520 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:36:11am

re: #480 sojerofgod

So now you make snarky remarks about our simian brothers!

It's not their fault they are underendowed in the manhood (monkeyhood?) department. Scientist tell us (Oh, It MUST be true!) that gorillas are monogamous, so they have no need for a display-sized unit.
This implies also that it's all the women's fault. if they weren't such window-shoppers when it came to said units, men would be able to cross their legs in comfort....

Pointing out their shortcomings is not being snarky about them. Although I wouldn't say the same thing about a Muslim if I thought I could be easily identified.

521 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:36:17am

re: #508 zmdavid

Personal beliefs should not matter in science. But they do.


Human beings
no matter what they call themselves
are prone to human being behavior

;~}

522 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:36:34am

re: #519 WriterMom

Blessed are the deoderants, indoor plumbing and cosmetics.

Odor killers Akbar!

523 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:36:49am

re: #510 CyanSnowHawk

The Christian was attempting minister to the children after a traumatic event, while the Witch was telling them what being a Witch was. A Christian would (should) have been allowed to describe what being a Christian was and the joys of Christiandom. (Assuming the ACLU didn't get wind of it)

No, the Christian youth preacher was called and was requested by the children from his church, but was told that because of 'seperation of church and state' he could not be there.

No such seperation existed when a witch came to evanglize to us.

What should happen and what DOES happen are two different things.

524 bryantms  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:36:53am

Fact: There is evidence for evolution in the form of descent with modification. Undisputed.

Not a fact: There is evidence for life beginning with a primordial ooze or on the backs of crystal.

In the movie Expelled, Dawkins himself admits that we all may have been intelligently designed, though he does remark that "whoever" designed us was created through evolution.

525 paxnhymn  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:37:02am

re: #517 opnion

Rather than reaching anybody searching for God, he was much more likely to look like a nut & hurt Christianity

a point stated earlier up the thread, but a good one, and worth repeating...

526 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:37:06am

re: #506 captainzot


I guess it is too much to ask for the new athiest crowd to have a little humility. That would entail that they had some wisdom.


That's a pretty bold statement from somebody with 6 posts under their belt.

527 Golem Akbar  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:37:07am

re: #513 BabbaZee

I'm a fleabit peanut monkey
all my friends are junkies


oooh oooh ooooh!Makin' sense, once again.

528 snowcrash  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:37:37am

re: #512 WriterMom
Yes, the evolution from Maybelline to Estee Lauder to MAC. Lets discuss./

529 Golem Akbar  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:37:47am

re: #519 WriterMom

Blessed are the deoderants, indoor plumbing and cosmetics.

And that's intelligent design.

530 paxnhymn  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:38:01am

re: #526 Killgore Trout

That's a pretty bold statement from somebody with 6 posts under their belt.

well....5 minutes to respond. I was wondering what kept you...


:-)

531 BulgarWheat  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:38:11am

re: #529 Golem Akbar

at least practical design.

532 loppyd  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:38:25am

re: #505 Ben Hur

Bowen employs the typical BBC stance of moral equivalency in describing the current conflict: "Israel uses airstrikes and ground incursions. Palestinians rocket Israeli border towns. Both sides blame each other." Thus, Palestinian terrorism is equated with Israeli efforts to defend her citizens.

Both sides blame each other? That gives the impression that they are both to blame....

533 nyc redneck  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:38:32am

re: #511 Shug

I watched a masterful performance last night. Tim Wakefield's knuckler was dancing around like a chicken with his head cut off

that's enough to make you believe in the almighty.

534 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:38:32am

re: #516 looking closely

The point is, if your "Science" book *does* talk about evolution in every chapter, thats highly unusual to the point of being exceptional.

What is the name of the book and who is its author?

I'm at work. No clue. The class has 4 textbooks, that is one.

One of them is Biology, 6th or 7th edition... can't remember which.

One is a textbook on how to teach science in school. I don't remember the title of that, or the one in question.

The fourth is called COncepts of Physical Science (I THINK it is the end Edition)

535 lawhawk  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:38:40am

re: #492 BabbaZee

I met Gerald Schroeder when involved with the Jerusalem Fellowships. Definitely provides some thought provoking discussion into the hidden meanings of the Torah and the confluence of science and religion as seen through the eyes of an observant Jew. To me, science and religion are not separate and distinct, but rather two methods of trying to discover meanings in the universe. Both can lead to deeper insight, but to delve into one without recognizing the worth of the other can lead to ethical and moral quandries.

536 yma o hyd  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:38:41am

re: #464 Ma Sands

LI-I-I-INK ! ! !

(Please? :)

Aw - got no link, sorry!
Story goes like this:

Tehre's a conference about evolution, and a brillaint scientist gives the well-attended lecture. at the end, people are allowed to ask questions.
One little old lady gets up and says:
"Thats all very interesting - but what about the turtles?"
"What turtles?" asks the scientist.
"The turtles which ebar the four column on which the World rests." says the little old lady.
The scientist and the audience chuckle, and he says, "But what would the turtles be standing on?"
"Other turtles," says the little old lady.
"And then?" asks the scientist, laughing?
"Well, everybody knows that it is turtles all the way down", says the little old lady.

537 zmdavid  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:38:59am

re: #426 wolfie
Your comment is correct.

I've been trying to figure out why there is such passion on this subject. Part of it is that it has become a proxy argument for the existence of God. The other part is (as BabbaZee suggested) identity politics.

538 WriterMom  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:39:23am

re: #522 BabbaZee

But 'car freshners' GLECHY PUKE VOMITOLLA.

539 yma o hyd  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:39:28am

re: #482 jcm

Aww - and I just repeated that from memory ...
:-(((

540 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:39:32am
541 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:39:38am

re: #376 LanceKates

I wish they were LIMITED to equal time.

Don't you remember the "Muslim Day" celebrations in CA schools? Where they set up little tents in the gym and practiced being a muslim all day, including clothing and prayers?

Can you IMAGINE someone suggesting the Christian version?

Or what would happen if a Jewish child came in on Muslim Day wearing a fake bomb belt.

542 jingoisticirredentist  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:39:39am

It seems to me that now that LGF has grown large enough, Charles seems to think he can get along without the "fundies" and "creationist" throwbacks, why else continue to start threads where the secularists insult those who do believe in God? This is very much the way the Republican party treats Evangelicals, they want our votes, but then shut up and go away. To the believers, we should never have expected any different treatment. Just remember, "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you." a quote from some knuckle dragging creationist about 2000 years ago.

543 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:39:39am

re: #530 paxnhymn

Eating lunch, typing, Om nom nom nom......

544 Ben Hur  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:39:59am
545 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:40:03am

re: #535 lawhawk

I met Gerald Schroeder when involved with the Jerusalem Fellowships. Definitely provides some thought provoking discussion into the hidden meanings of the Torah and the confluence of science and religion as seen through the eyes of an observant Jew. To me, science and religion are not separate and distinct, but rather two methods of trying to discover meanings in the universe. Both can lead to deeper insight, but to delve into one without recognizing the worth of the other can lead to ethical and moral quandries.

100% agree with you
That's how I feel exactly

546 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:40:30am

re: #541 Kosh's Shadow

Or what would happen if a Jewish child came in on Muslim Day wearing a fake bomb belt.

since it was a Jewish child, they would give him a shirt to wear that says "IDF"....

Gotta keep up the pro-islam appearances and all.

547 loppyd  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:40:32am

re: #538 WriterMom

But 'car freshners' GLECHY PUKE VOMITOLLA.

Bounce dryer sheets under the seats are a nice alternative.

548 sattv4u2  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:40:35am

re: #526 Killgore Trout

That's a pretty bold statement from somebody with 6 posts under their belt.

I'm living proof the the QUANTITY of posts (as I approach 5,000) has no corelation with the QUALITY of posts

hey,,, wait a second ,, did I just diss myself ?

549 WriterMom  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:41:25am

re: #535 lawhawk

To me, science and religion are not separate and distinct, but rather two methods of trying to discover meanings in the universe. Both can lead to deeper insight, but to delve into one without recognizing the worth of the other can lead to ethical and moral quandries.

Liking that quote. Agree with you completely.

550 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:42:11am

re: #526 Killgore Trout

That's a pretty bold statement from somebody with 6 posts under their belt.

I have over 50,000 posts. Am I able to call on atheists to have a little more humility when ranting on Creationists?

551 formercorpsman  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:42:14am

re: #542 jingoisticirredentist

Quit the hysterics.

Good lord.

552 Ma Sands  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:42:19am

re: #536 yma o hyd

Got it. Thanks! :)

553 WriterMom  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:42:32am

re: #528 snowcrash

EXACTLY!

That is exactly how evolution works! EGADS!

554 sparrowlake  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:42:49am

re: #519 WriterMom

Blessed are the deoderants, indoor plumbing and cosmetics.

Hedonistic Idolatress!

555 WriterMom  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:42:59am

re: #542 jingoisticirredentist

Relax, Max.

556 Roger  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:43:02am

Note: re: #542 jingoisticirredentist

It seems to me that now that LGF has grown large enough, Charles seems to think he can get along without the "fundies" and "creationist" throwbacks, why else continue to start threads where the secularists insult those who do believe in God? This is very much the way the Republican party treats Evangelicals, they want our votes, but then shut up and go away. To the believers, we should never have expected any different treatment. Just remember, "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you." a quote from some knuckle dragging creationist about 2000 years ago.

I disagree completely. That is not the Charles I know over these many years.

557 NoSubmission  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:43:09am

re: #549 WriterMom

Liking that quote. Agree with you completely.


I agree with that too.

/recovering atheist me

558 Charles  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:43:28am

re: #492 BabbaZee

I'm familiar with Michael Behe, and very unimpressed with his work. In each case where he claims to have found "irreducible complexity," it's been shown to be false. And the fact that he responds (as so many ID advocates do) with claims of being suppressed rather than scientific argument is very telling.

559 the Daily Kos Om Islaam  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:43:37am

re: #36 Charles


Hey Charles,

This is the same Catholic Church that has declared manipulating DNA (even performing PCR to identify, say, a rapist) a mortal sin :

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

As a non-subscriber to intelligent design, Charles, to attempt to use the perceived authority of the Catholic Church in your argument against Christians who do subscribe to intelligent design is not only irrelevant, but rather mealymouthed.

Serious adherents to intelligent design (i.e. members of the scientific community) do not believe as they do because some pope, author (i.e. Dawkins), or book told them to.

That is more than I can say for the general public.

560 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:43:40am

re: #535 lawhawk

I met Gerald Schroeder when involved with the Jerusalem Fellowships. Definitely provides some thought provoking discussion into the hidden meanings of the Torah and the confluence of science and religion as seen through the eyes of an observant Jew. To me, science and religion are not separate and distinct, but rather two methods of trying to discover meanings in the universe. Both can lead to deeper insight, but to delve into one without recognizing the worth of the other can lead to ethical and moral quandries.

There are indeed people who have sunk into and perverted science without morality and they have done very horrible things.

However, it is not the fault of science.... just a case of the immoral attempting to justify themselves.

561 WriterMom  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:44:07am

re: #554 sparrowlake

Heh.

562 nyc redneck  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:44:29am

i went in a church the other day. and sat down in a pew on a burgandy velvet cushion. i was the only one there. i looked around at all the glorious stained glass windows and high cathedral ceiling. i felt god's presence, even if i don't understand it. i like religious people. i'm intrigued by what they feel and know.

563 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:44:32am

re: #542 jingoisticirredentist

Are you paying attention at all?

There is no bigger "bible thumper" on this blog than me.

Have you seen Charles do anything in our conversation on this thread , or ever in our many public interactions, to indicate to you that he despises me with all his spleen and wants me and my merry tribe of God Mouths gone?

If you expect to rep the GOD of Abraham you had better buck up quick and stop speaking fluent Whinese.

564 Cpt. Disco  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:44:52am

It's always interesting to watch LGF when a topic like this comes up. Most of us are on the same page about radical islam, but on the topic of Christianity...

It's one of a handful of topics that divides us.

565 joncelli  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:44:55am

OT: The circus goes on! Clinton says she'll stay in race.

566 lawhawk  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:45:48am

re: #560 LanceKates

There are indeed people who have sunk into and perverted science without morality and they have done very horrible things.

However, it is not the fault of science.... just a case of the immoral attempting to justify themselves.

I agree - it always comes back to the personal responsibility of those who engage in such pursuits.

567 jcm  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:45:59am

re: #539 yma o hyd

Aww - and I just repeated that from memory ...
:-(((

I'll give it too you. In my book memory 5pts, google 1pt.

568 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:46:07am

re: #558 Charles

I'm familiar with Michael Behe, and very unimpressed with his work. In each case where he claims to have found "irreducible complexity," it's been shown to be false. And the fact that he responds (as so many ID advocates do) with claims of being suppressed rather than scientific argument is very telling.

Can you show me where you found his stuff
"proven to be false"

569 WriterMom  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:46:28am

re: #562 nyc redneck

That's beautiful. I also see God's presence in nature, and in the unexplained things in life. I was at the Kotel in Jerusalem last week. I didn't feel the need to pray right by the Wall. I just watched people singing, praying, looking and felt very, very connected to God.

570 sparrowlake  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:46:51am

re: #540 BabbaZee

Dont you know you gonna shock the monkey?

LOL. Everybody's got something to hide.
Take it easy!

571 nyc redneck  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:46:53am

re: #565 joncelli

OT: The circus goes on! Clinton says she'll stay in race.

well, i guess she hasn't heard that rush has authorized all the delegates to go ahead and go for osama.

572 Charles  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:46:57am

re: #542 jingoisticirredentist

It seems to me that now that LGF has grown large enough, Charles seems to think he can get along without the "fundies" and "creationist" throwbacks, why else continue to start threads where the secularists insult those who do believe in God? This is very much the way the Republican party treats Evangelicals, they want our votes, but then shut up and go away. To the believers, we should never have expected any different treatment. Just remember, "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you." a quote from some knuckle dragging creationist about 2000 years ago.

This is completely absurd. It has never been a secret that I do not believe creationism is science.

And I object to you equating creationism/ID with belief in God. They are not the same thing at all.

573 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:47:01am

re: #566 lawhawk

I agree - it always comes back to the personal responsibility of those who engage in such pursuits.

Very much so.

And we have a duty to explain and bring to light EVERY example of perversion of science (or religion) for the sake of trying to justify immorality.

However, when you suggest that any group used science or religion to do evil things, you will ALWAYS find people too insecure to allow you to point it out.

574 OldLineTexan  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:47:19am

More "science".

575 Kenneth  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:47:21am

re: #544 Ben Hur

From that link:

Putting aside the “labeling and name-calling”, leaving a war without winning it is, in fact, surrender. How else would anyone describe it? “Quitting” and “running away” come to mind, but both are synonymous with surrender.* Leaving when the new strategy has made great progress in bolstering the elected government in Iraq is especially egregious, but in any case retreating while engaged with the enemy is surrender by any definition of the term.

* Actually, "quitting and running away", which are precisely what Obama proposes to do, are far less honorable than formal surrender.

576 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:47:50am

re: #570 sparrowlake

Ahaha
I was going there next

577 Golem Akbar  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:47:54am

re: #564 Cpt. Disco

It's always interesting to watch LGF when a topic like this comes up. Most of us are on the same page about radical islam, but on the topic of Christianity...

It's one of a handful of topics that divides us.

It's a big tent. Or, kind of like a big screen with Indiana Jones on it...

578 Ghostbuster  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:48:15am

If we all evolved from monkeys, maybe someone could explain why we don't see some monkeys in transition at the present time ..... or is that what some folks call democrats? Just wondering ....

579 Ben Hur  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:48:50am

re: #532 loppyd

Both sides blame each other? That gives the impression that they are both to blame....

Yes.

580 Iron Fist  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:48:51am

re: #473 MandyManners,

Are people with sickle-cell non-human? Of course not. You've got proof of a benificial adaptation through mutation, not proof of evolution. It's a mixed benifit adaptation at that. People with full blown sickle-cell have all kinds of problems.

581 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:49:00am

re: #550 LanceKates

Am I able to call on atheists to have a little more humility when ranting on Creationists?


Sure, As supreme leader of that that is godless I grant you permission to speak your mind.
/that's a sarc.

He was comment of the "new" crowd of atheists as if he's an old lizard who's detected a trend. I smell sockpuppet.

582 WriterMom  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:49:27am

re: #564 Cpt. Disco

There are many, many topics that divide us actually and for the most part, Charles has asked us to refrain from debating them here on LGF. There are certain trigger topics that over the years have caused a lot of pain. If everyone just stays CIVIL and POLITE, we manage to discuss even the most painful topics-where we totally disagree-in a respectful manner. It's the name calling and huffy defensiveness that usually start the disintegration and deterioration of the thread.

583 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:49:36am

re: #564 Cpt. Disco

It's always interesting to watch LGF when a topic like this comes up. Most of us are on the same page about radical islam, but on the topic of Christianity...

It's one of a handful of topics that divides us.

Well, this isn't exactly an issue of Christianity. It's an issue of creationism and intelligent design. Neither of which is required to be a Christian.

584 Endangered in MASS  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:49:39am

re: #548 sattv4u2

Don't sell yourself short...

You are a tremendous slouch

585 Charles  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:49:53am

re: #568 BabbaZee

Can you show me where you found his stuff
"proven to be false"

For starters, here's a book that discusses Behe, W. A. Dembski, and other ID proponents:

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

586 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:50:07am

re: #581 Killgore Trout

Sure, As supreme leader of that that is godless I grant you permission to speak your mind.
/that's a sarc.

He was comment of the "new" crowd of atheists as if he's an old lizard who's detected a trend. I smell sockpuppet.

Possible, but to suggest that his point should not stand due to the low number of posts is kind of silly.

587 nyc redneck  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:50:12am

re: #569 WriterMom

That's beautiful. I also see God's presence in nature, and in the unexplained things in life. I was at the Kotel in Jerusalem last week. I didn't feel the need to pray right by the Wall. I just watched people singing, praying, looking and felt very, very connected to God.

yes, it's like that. {WriterMom}

588 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:51:08am
589 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:51:28am

re: #585 Charles

For starters, here's a book that discusses Behe, W. A. Dembski, and other ID proponents:

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

thank ye

590 snowcrash  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:51:46am

re: #562 nyc redneck
I saw a Mark Rothko painting once and felt I was viewing the exact moment God created light. Art is that way for me and I can't draw a straight line!

591 WriterMom  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:52:46am

re: #590 snowcrash

Music, too. Some songs, melodies feel totally divinely inspired.

592 wolfie  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:52:48am

re: #514 LanceKates

Indeed. All I wanted to say is that the notion that God considers knowledge itself a sin is ignorant. I have heard this "tree of knowledge"canard so many times!

Oh....and on the difference between the Catholic Church and Catholics:
You are pointing out a key distinction. When, for example, I say that the Episcopal Church is heretical I don't mean that all Episcopalians are heretics. When I say my local Baptist church is orthodox and Christian, I don't mean that everyone going there is. Some are going for purely social reasons. (I personally know a regular church-going Baptist who believes in re-incarnation! Needless to say, his church emphatically does not!)

593 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:53:00am

re: #580 Iron Fist

,

Are people with sickle-cell non-human? Of course not. You've got proof of a benificial adaptation through mutation, not proof of evolution. It's a mixed benifit adaptation at that. People with full blown sickle-cell have all kinds of problems.

Exactly.

Micro and Macro.

Too often people use examples of Microevolution to try and 'prove' Macroevolution.

594 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:53:03am

re: #575 Kenneth

From that link:

* Actually, "quitting and running away", which are precisely what Obama proposes to do, are far less honorable than formal surrender.

What a great line for McCain's October use.

595 Roger  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:54:05am

re: #564 Cpt. Disco

It's always interesting to watch LGF when a topic like this comes up. Most of us are on the same page about radical islam, but on the topic of Christianity...

It's one of a handful of topics that divides us.

Matthew 10:33-33 But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -
36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'

And so it is and will continue to be.

596 Kenneth  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:54:24am

Could anybody on the pro-ID side of the argument please explain this to me:

Why would G-d create a universe that looks like it evolved if it didn't evolve? Why would G-d create plants and animals that look like they evolved, if they did not evolve?

597 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:54:31am

re: #592 wolfie

Indeed. All I wanted to say is that the notion that God considers knowledge itself a sin is ignorant. I have heard this "tree of knowledge"canard so many times!

I find that this idea is mostly pushed by people who want to write off the Christian Church as ignorant. That way any arguments can also be written off. (like, say, the Christians that hold to Creationism?)

Oh....and on the difference between the Catholic Church and Catholics:
You are pointing out a key distinction. When, for example, I say that the Episcopal Church is heretical I don't mean that all Episcopalians are heretics. When I say my local Baptist church is orthodox and Christian, I don't mean that everyone going there is. Some are going for purely social reasons. (I personally know a regular church-going Baptist who believes in re-incarnation! Needless to say, his church emphatically does not!)

People who refuse to see that distinction do so willingly.

598 Charles  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:54:55am

re: #564 Cpt. Disco

It's always interesting to watch LGF when a topic like this comes up. Most of us are on the same page about radical islam, but on the topic of Christianity...

It's one of a handful of topics that divides us.

Intelligent design does not equal Christianity.

599 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:55:00am

re: #590 snowcrash

I saw a Mark Rothko painting once and felt I was viewing the exact moment God created light. Art is that way for me and I can't draw a straight line!

Me too. Just exactly that.

600 BulgarWheat  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:55:04am

re: #595 Roger

It is written

601 snowcrash  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:55:05am

re: #591 WriterMom
And make-up. The names truly are inspired. Nars orgasm, say no more.
///

602 Cameron  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:55:13am

I'm a lurker, so ignore me if the number of posts matters to you.

ID is not creationism--it makes no claim about how long it took, what it looked like, etc. It simply posits the idea of some version of design to better explain the order seen in the natural world.

Most creationists I know (including myself) wholeheartedly agree that microevolution exists--beneficial adaptation is obvious in the modern frame and repeatable. I'd hesitate to include sickle-cell in this category, though.

Macroevolution is where most of us disagree.

603 hayseed  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:55:17am

an atheist friend was joking around with me he said take the female body if it was ID why is the dump next to the playground?
//

604 wanumba  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:55:40am

Proposal for a scientific survey:
How many moonbats are Vegans or vegetarians and exhibiting clinical signs of Vitamin B-12 deficiency? (Over 85% of Vegans suffer from B-12 deficiency, the severity depending on how long they've been on that diet)
B-12 is only found in eggs, meat and milk

Early signs:
irritability
inability to concentrate
More advanced signs:
tingling and then numbness in the extremities : signs of permanent nerve damage
More advanced:
dementia

The moonbats have a certain eerie similarity that goes beyond just group think.

605 Shug  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:55:40am

re: #596 Kenneth

Could anybody on the pro-ID side of the argument please explain this to me:

Why would G-d create a universe that looks like it evolved if it didn't evolve? Why would G-d create plants and animals that look like they evolved, if they did not evolve?


Why did God create Helen Thomas?
Why did God Create the duck billed platypus?

or did they both evolve from a common ancestor?

606 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:55:52am

re: #596 Kenneth

Could anybody on the pro-ID side of the argument please explain this to me:

Why would G-d create a universe that looks like it evolved if it didn't evolve? Why would G-d create plants and animals that look like they evolved, if they did not evolve?

Have you considered that things look like they've evolved because of your perspective?

You and I look at the same human hand. You may see what looks like evolution. I see what looks like Creation.

607 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:56:06am

re: #575 Kenneth

From that link:

* Actually, "quitting and running away", which are precisely what Obama proposes to do, are far less honorable than formal surrender.

Obama's secretary of defense - Sir Robin, from Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
"Brave Sir Robin ran away
Bravely ran away, away
When danger reared its ugly head
He bravely turned his tail and fled
Brave, brave, brave Sir Robin

608 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:56:33am

re: #585 Charles

For starters, here's a book that discusses Behe, W. A. Dembski, and other ID proponents:

OK.

John Brockman is a member of Dawkins' inner circle and occasionally acts as his editor, and Dawkins has one of the most staggeringly huge agendas I have ever seen....

So I'll have to find something else on that one for corroboration. If I were you I would divide what you have learned from him by his agenda.

609 wolfie  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:56:34am

re: #537 zmdavid

Your comment is correct.

I've been trying to figure out why there is such passion on this subject. Part of it is that it has become a proxy argument for the existence of God. The other part is (as BabbaZee suggested) identity politics.

Me too!
In fact, that's the only reason these threads interest me! I'm trying to understand.

610 Cpt. Disco  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:56:51am

re: #582 WriterMom

Agreed.

611 paxnhymn  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:56:57am

re: #586 LanceKates

Possible, but to suggest that his point should not stand due to the low number of posts is kind of silly.

his "point" was pointless and without merit...

612 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:57:02am

It's time to give up another easily debunked talking point. Evolution is not an atheist plot to destroy god......
Breakdown of religion and acceptance of evolution.
It is widely accepted among Jews, Christians, Protestants, Buddhists, Hindus and even a few Muslims.

613 OldLineTexan  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:57:21am

re: #603 hayseed

an atheist friend was joking around with me he said take the female body if it was ID why is the dump next to the playground?
//

God is a civil engineer.

/Only a civil engineer would route a sewer through a recreational area.

//old engineering joke

///if you're going to hate me, I prefer fatwas; that way everything is nice and formal

614 joncelli  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:57:25am

re: #605 Shug

Why did God create Helen Thomas?
Why did God Create the duck billed platypus?

or did they both evolve from a common ancestor?

Hey, that's an insult to duck-billed playtypuses (platypii?).

615 Ben Hur  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:57:26am

How do you explain my 11th toe?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

616 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:57:33am

re: #596 Kenneth

Could anybody on the pro-ID side of the argument please explain this to me:

Why would G-d create a universe that looks like it evolved if it didn't evolve? Why would G-d create plants and animals that look like they evolved, if they did not evolve?

No one who understands ID says evolution is not a mechanism

they say it is NOT a cause

they say it IS an inaccurately and incompletely defined mechanism

617 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:57:42am

re: #596 Kenneth

Could anybody on the pro-ID side of the argument please explain this to me:

Why would G-d create plants and animals that look like they evolved, if they did not evolve?

I can't speak for anyone but myself. I see those examples as ways plants and animals adapted to their environments. I do not see those things as ways plants became animals, or certain animals became other types of animals, or ways certain plants or animals became human beings.

618 kynna  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:57:53am

How dare he question scientific and academic dogma?! LOL.

This thread full of Ben Stein Hate (as well as all the others) proves his point again and again. But then, I doubt many of the people here got his point in the first place.

One thing though ... I'll bet the leftie lurkers have Exploding Head Syndrome when they see this. They couldn't possibly know what to do when they see their most despised enemies rabidly lashing out at their other most despised enemies. Now that's an image I like.

619 BulgarWheat  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:57:56am

re: #612 Killgore Trout

Debunk me you beast, you!

620 lawhawk  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:58:03am

re: #605 Shug

Why did God create Helen Thomas?
Why did God Create the duck billed platypus?

or did they both evolve from a common ancestor?

G-d is not without a sense of humor. Or irony.

621 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:58:08am

re: #611 paxnhymn

his "point" was pointless and without merit...

Then it should have been dealt with on the basis of merit, not by how many posts they have.

622 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:58:09am

re: #602 Cameron

The problem is, there is no such thing as micro vs. macro evolution. It's a cop out by the creation science crowd to explain away genetics. It's adaptation, pure and simple. Given enough adaptations, you have a new species.

623 sparrowlake  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:58:43am

I am reminded.....
As a kid I once had a Jewish School supply teacher who "guaranteed" he could prove God's existence in 5 minutes. He then told us the story of how the Goodyear tire was invented by an accident in the laboratory whereby several chemical vials fell and broke and the resulting mixture dripped into a mold, and - TA DA there must be a God. Naturally we students were not convinced. And he was so insulted at the cynicism that he stomped out of the classroom.
Later the Rabbi came in and apologized to us.

624 conservativeChick  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:58:46am

Look I know their are a lot of people on LGF that have many different views on this subject. As for me I am a Christan and I don't believe that I came from a monkey. However I respect my fellow lizards different views on religion. I know that a lot of lizards believe that God used evolution to lay the foundation for mankind today. I don't shove my views or my religion down peoples throats saying "I'm right and your wrong so agree with me and change your views to my views or die" as thats not the Judeo-Christan way of thinking, thats the Islamic/Liberal Moonbat way of thinking.

625 MandyManners  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:58:51am
626 Ringo the Gringo  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:58:54am

ID (as properly defined) , at this point in the game, is not true science, but rather a new school of philosophy based on the implications of modern scientific knowledge and theories. There is no reason why scientists or professors should be shunned for delving into this new field so long as it is understood to be scientific philosophy and not hard-science.

From my understanding, this is how Anthony Flew felt about ID as well.

I think it is a great to bring science into the philosophy class, but not so much the other way around.

627 Vergeltung  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:59:02am

re: #564 Cpt. Disco

It's always interesting to watch LGF when a topic like this comes up. Most of us are on the same page about radical islam, but on the topic of Christianity...
It's one of a handful of topics that divides us.

in my experience, the anti-radical islam theme is one of the few unifying factors here. on most other important topics, this place is all over the place! :)

628 OldLineTexan  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:59:14am

re: #615 Ben Hur

How do you explain my 11th toe?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

That's not your toe.

/Walk PROUD

629 Charles  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:59:22am

re: #608 BabbaZee

OK.

John Brockman is a member of Dawkins' inner circle and occasionally acts as his editor, and Dawkins has one of the most staggeringly huge agendas I have ever seen....

So I'll have to find something else on that one for corroboration. If I were you I would divide what you have learned from him by his agenda.

On the other hand, the Discovery Institute is an extremist far-right religious group with a formerly secret agenda to erase the line between science and religion, and promote a Christian theocracy in the US:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

630 Just Another Four-letter Word  Wed, May 7, 2008 11:59:28am

re: #388 debutaunt

But do you have the resolve to prove it over 8 hours?

Well, e=mC2 is a pretty elegant equation that takes about 5 seconds to "explain", but it took me 3-1/2 months in Engineering Physics to go through the Michelson-Morley experiments, the Lorents-Fitzgerald Contraction Equations, and then Einstein's "though experiment(s)" to prove the little bastard, and even now it's being torn apart by modern physicists!

JAFLW

(...and then I saw _The Mechanical Universe_ series (on PBS?) where they explained the Time Dilation effects in 5 minutes or less, and my wife was wondering why I was screaming, "Where were YOU when I was studying this mind-twisting crap in Engineering?!?!?!?!" at the T.V.)

631 nyc redneck  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:00:04pm

ok, i'm heading out again. i hope to get the taters and onions in.
also carrots, collards, and swiss chard. the kind w/ the rainbow colored stalk. actually they are more neon colored.
be kind to one another because peace begins in the home.

632 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:00:23pm

re: #629 Charles

that was a silly answer to what I wrote but OK

633 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:00:45pm

re: #486 Dianna

Did you know that Odin had ancestors?

Odin was one of the Sons of the Bor, formed from the ice by the Giant Cow, Auohumla, and the daughter of a frost ogre. Ve and Villi were his siblings.

634 Roger  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:01:00pm

re: #596 Kenneth

Could anybody on the pro-ID side of the argument please explain this to me:

Why would G-d create a universe that looks like it evolved if it didn't evolve? Why would G-d create plants and animals that look like they evolved, if they did not evolve?


It is not observing the same thing to me. I see it more as a built in ability to handle a variety of living conditions. I do not see sharp minima and maxima in complex stability of living systems. I see long faint minima with lots of variety. And much is preference. All the finches with a variety of beaks can breed and indeed have been observed to do so.

635 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:01:08pm

re: #622 Honorary Yooper

The problem is, there is no such thing as micro vs. macro evolution. It's a cop out by the creation science crowd to explain away genetics. It's adaptation, pure and simple. Given enough adaptations, you have a new species.

So, your suggestion is that chromosome count and genetic makeup are due to adaptations to one's environment?

Please point out a case of microevolution that has taken place that changed the chromosome count due to a need to adapt to the environment.

White Gipsy moths turning grey did not change the number of chromosomes or the genetic template... just the arrangement of some bits of already existing dna.

The "It's the same thing, Trust me!" argument doesn't work.

636 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:01:11pm

re: #612 Killgore Trout

It's time to give up another easily debunked talking point. Evolution is not an atheist plot to destroy god......
Breakdown of religion and acceptance of evolution.
It is widely accepted among Jews, Christians, Protestants, Buddhists, Hindus and even a few Muslims.

I actually ran a similar survey to that in a college class. I came up with very similar numbers.

637 debutaunt  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:01:14pm

re: #510 CyanSnowHawk

The Christian was attempting minister to the children after a traumatic event, while the Witch was telling them what being a Witch was. A Christian would (should) have been allowed to describe what being a Christian was and the joys of Christiandom. (Assuming the ACLU didn't get wind of it)

Perhaps the witch was being used as an interesting distraction?

638 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:01:58pm

re: #626 Ringo the Gringo

What makes one scientific philosophy a science and another scientific philosophy a philosophy?

The battle is over who is DEFINING THE TERMS

it always comes down to language

639 Dianna  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:01:58pm

re: #519 WriterMom

Amen!

Particularly unscented deodorants!

640 snowcrash  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:02:24pm

re: #615 Ben Hur
The trait for polydactly is dominant. I don't know why.

641 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:02:34pm

Well that closet isn't going to clean itself, and the new pup needs a long walk. Play nice.

642 Just Another Four-letter Word  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:02:34pm

re: #391 Dotcoman

You'd think that if evolution existed man would have evolved by now.

And all women on the planet would naturally blond, Buxom, and Blue eyed, and all the men would be hung like John Holms.

Where are all the beneficial mutations?

What you think is a "beneficial" mutation might not be beneficial at all.

...although I'd raise my hand for adoption of the above mentioned characteristics in the General Population...

JAFLW

/Okay, I'm a DOM...

643 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:02:44pm

re: #629 Charles

On the other hand, the Discovery Institute is an extremist far-right religious group with a formerly secret agenda to erase the line between science and religion, and promote a Christian theocracy in the US:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Then, for clarity, why distance yourself from the biased agenda of those you disagree with, but hold to the biased agenda of those you agree with?

If the point is to find the unbiased truth, shouldn't biased agendas be avoided, whether we agree with them or not?

644 Ben Hur  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:03:11pm

Why do babies have multiple nipples when born?

Wait, even better, Why do men have nipples?

645 jingoisticirredentist  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:03:26pm

I notice that it is very much like a Kos thread every time there is an ID/Creation thread. Secularists insulting believers. One exception, liberals hate believers and want them to go away, conservative secularists insult believers and then want them to do their bidding anyway, which is worse? Charles, its the secularists here that equate ID/Creationism with belief in God. (after they get done insulting us and stirring up discontent) Perhaps we should stop with the internal strife and stick to the job of exposing the real enemy, socialists, gramscian whores, dupes of the caliphate, and so on.

646 mjwsatx  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:03:46pm

There is nothing that science can tell me now or in the future that would lessen my belief that we and everything in this universe were created by G-d. But I know that we all have very different conceptions of G-d, and we all have very different concepts of "intelligent design."

Does creationism or even intelligent design belong in the science classroom? Absolutely not. But do scientists have any right to teach that their discipline can explain both the how and the why about our existence? That is hubris in the extreme.

But I have no doubt that is the message that most college students get from their science professors.

647 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:03:51pm

The deception is on all sides

648 Ben Hur  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:03:57pm

re: #640 snowcrash

The trait for polydactly is dominant. I don't know why.

Maybe it's evolution adapting to keyboards.

649 bunker buster  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:04:19pm

re: #637 debutaunt

Perhaps the witch was being used as an interesting distraction?

How do you knoooow she's a witch?

650 MandyManners  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:04:26pm

Where did Cain's bride come from?

651 Charles  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:04:27pm

re: #632 BabbaZee

that was a silly answer to what I wrote but OK

No, it's not silly -- you're brushing aside a book full of scientific essays by discounting a few of the authors. I'm pointing out that the Discovery Institute (the main source of ID advocacy) is a much shadier operation than Richard Dawkins.

Dawkins is an aggressive atheist, yes -- but he's also a respected scientist.

652 Ma Sands  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:04:44pm

re: #615 Ben Hur

Do you truly have one, Ben? I read, in one of the Believe It Or Not books, that there is a town, in Europe I think, where every person in the town has 7 fingers on each hand..... :)

653 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:04:47pm

re: #649 bunker buster

How do you knoooow she's a witch?

BUILD A BRIDGE OUT OF HER!

654 yma o hyd  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:04:48pm

re: #598 Charles

Intelligent design does not equal Christianity.

Precisely.
Should be repeated every hundred posts or so ...

655 loppyd  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:04:48pm

re: #644 Ben Hur

Why do babies have multiple nipples when born?

Wait, even better, Why do men have nipples?

Dirk Diggler knows all about your first question.

656 debutaunt  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:04:50pm

re: #523 LanceKates

No, the Christian youth preacher was called and was requested by the children from his church, but was told that because of 'separation of church and state' he could not be there.

No such separation existed when a witch came to evangelize to us.

What should happen and what DOES happen are two different things.

Just a hit and run spellcheck.

657 tiburon  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:04:56pm

re: #558 Charles

Hey Charles...well, y'know - bringing info that "(his work)(Behe's)..is shown to be false", is fair - but you gotta actually bring it, right?
Humbly - if Behe makes you uncomfortable, do read Schroeder.
You must really enjoy these threads - I keep out of them, generally, having spent a good part of a year on the dedicated pro and anti ID threads.
My conclusion is that there isn't any, yet, by any stretch. I'm no 'Young Earther', but apart from infinite string universes (of which we're just one of the lucky - a physics postulate completely unsupported by observation, impossible by definition of course), it's IMHO wild superstition to believe Our Universe is NOT product of ID. Hence I see those vociferously defending "evolution", punctuated or otherwise, (I mean those insisting it's "all just chance and inevitable product of deep time") as sufficient explanation of our Existence, as flat earthers, and a little akin to those still insisting on AWG as a measurable driver of Earth's climate. (perhaps unfair of me).

But Charles, if you DO have to tease us with these threads, can you please break 'em up? I mean - +1000 comments per makes it big slogging to get through. :-)

658 MandyManners  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:04:59pm

re: #644 Ben Hur

Why do babies have multiple nipples when born?

Wait, even better, Why do men have nipples?

What? The Kid didn't have more than the standard two when he was born.

659 sparrowlake  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:05:01pm

re: #576 BabbaZee

Ahaha
I was going there next

Sorry {Babbaleh}, I didn't mean to step on yer toes. LOL

660 Ben Hur  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:05:28pm

re: #652 Ma Sands

Do you truly have one, Ben? I read, in one of the Believe It Or Not books, that there is a town, in Europe I think, where every person in the town has 7 fingers on each hand..... :)

Yes, but it's not on my foot.

661 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:05:31pm

re: #646 mjwsatx

But I have no doubt that is the message that most college students get from their science professors.

Despite the calls from those who favor Evolution that such things do not happen. (Or, perhaps, they just don't mind that it happens?)

662 conservativeChick  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:05:31pm

re: #624 conservativeChick

Look I know their are a lot of people on LGF that have many different views on this subject. As for me I am a Christan and I don't believe that I came from a monkey. However I respect my fellow lizards different views on religion. I know that a lot of lizards believe that God used evolution to lay the foundation for mankind today. I don't shove my views or my religion down peoples throats saying "I'm right and your wrong so agree with me and change your views to my views or die" as thats not the Judeo-Christan way of thinking, thats the Islamic/Liberal Moonbat way of thinking.

Sorry to quote my own post but i just wanted to say that respect my fellow lizards views and I hope that they respect mine.

663 wolfie  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:05:46pm

re: #583 Honorary Yooper

Well, this isn't exactly an issue of Christianity. It's an issue of creationism and intelligent design. Neither of which is required to be a Christian.

I do wish there were some way to distinguish between C and ID as putatively scientific theories and C and ID as theological doctrines. I myself like to capitalize
Creationism and Intelligent Design when speaking of the former.
If you say that you can be a Christian w/o believing an intelligent God created the universe, then the word "Christian" has no meaning whatsoever.

664 joncelli  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:06:06pm

re: #645 jingoisticirredentist

conservative secularists insult believers and then want them to do their bidding anyway, which is worse?

Umm, huh? Can you provide an example of this?

665 Kenneth  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:06:11pm

re: #616 BabbaZee

In other words evolution and natural selection occur, but it's just that God is watching it all? That's ID? That's a dodge, not an explanation.

666 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:06:35pm

re: #523 LanceKates

No, the Christian youth preacher was called and was requested by the children from his church, but was told that because of 'seperation of church and state' he could not be there.

No such seperation existed when a witch came to evanglize to us.

What should happen and what DOES happen are two different things.

My point stands. The Christian youth preacher was called to the school to perform a religious duty for the children that asked it of him. The Witch was not there to "evangelize" but to give information about what it meant to be a Witch. He was not allowed to be there to minister to his flock. There is a significant difference, although you do not seem willing to acknowledge it.

667 Ben Hur  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:07:05pm

re: #658 MandyManners

What? The Kid didn't have more than the standard two when he was born.


No no, every baby is born with more than two.

The two you see are full, the others look like freckles and fade.

668 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:07:07pm

re: #636 Honorary Yooper

I actually ran a similar survey to that in a college class. I came up with very similar numbers.


I'm a little suspicious of their overall total , IIRC the overall acceptance of evolution is a little lower than that in America. But I think the proportion by religion is pretty accurate.

669 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:07:30pm

re: #633 CyanSnowHawk

That should read, Sons of Bor, not Sons of the Bor.

670 jorline  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:07:31pm

Explain the evolution of a platypus...

671 loppyd  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:08:21pm

re: #667 Ben Hur

No no, every baby is born with more than two.

The two you see are full, the others look like freckles and fade.

Did you read that in Mrs. Hur's copy of What to Expect When You're Expecting?

672 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:08:32pm

re: #666 CyanSnowHawk

My point stands. The Christian youth preacher was called to the school to perform a religious duty for the children that asked it of him. The Witch was not there to "evangelize" but to give information about what it meant to be a Witch. He was not allowed to be there to minister to his flock. There is a significant difference, although you do not seem willing to acknowledge it.

Nope, once again, the point does NOT stand.

The preacher was called, by the students, because they wanted to talk to their youth pastor after a student died. He was turned away by the SCHOOL, despite the request of the students in his own youth group, because there can't be anything religious involved in school.

Then, there was a witch who was very much evanglizing (who the hell are you to tell me what I experienced?) in talking about what a witch is, what she does, and how great it is.

673 wolfie  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:08:42pm

re: #596 Kenneth

Could anybody on the pro-ID side of the argument please explain this to me:

Why would G-d create a universe that looks like it evolved if it didn't evolve? Why would G-d create plants and animals that look like they evolved, if they did not evolve?

My understanding of ID is that it posits evolution as part of the design. In other words, ID accepts evolution as an important process in the whole shebang. (But I'm no authority on the subject, to say the least!)

674 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:08:48pm

re: #669 CyanSnowHawk

Sons of the Bor(e).

Al Gore has sons?

675 Shug  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:09:01pm

I will argue right now that if evolution is real, that the human species has peaked and will continue to devolve....at least for the next several hundred to thousand years.

Higher educated people in developed countries are not breeding. Welfare bums in western nations are breeding at alarming rates. The Human gene pool is getting more and more shallow. In some places ( the middle east, Ohio ) the Gene pool looks more like a gene puddle
They are inbreeding and also, infants with previously lethal diseases are being kept alive by modern medical technology, to reproduce.

676 Skaught  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:09:07pm

re: #489 Killgore Trout

Science's sole purpose is to study natural law, supernatural explanations have no place in science and they never will. I think it's surprising that so many people understand so little about about science that they want it altered to accommodate religious beliefs. This is the exact same approach Al-Ghazali used to destroy the Islamic world in the 11th century. The rejection of imperical philosophies and godless blasphemy, and the inclusion of religion into scientific thought. It's a disastrous line of thinking.

You've misunderstood what I said. For those who missed it, my quote was "I don't object to the teaching of evolution. What I object to is the teaching that the universe exists solely through naturalistic (non-super natural) means."

I didn't say science should study the supernatural. I didn' say it shouldn't study natural law. I did't say science should be altered to accomodate religious belief. So why go quote me and then go off in an unrelated direction?

What I saw was it shouldn't be taught in schools that the universes exists EXCLUSIVELY through NATURALISTIC means, and that nothing supernatural was involved. Just as science can't say anything supernatural WAS involved, it shouldn't be teaching that it WASN'T involved, either.

677 bunker buster  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:09:15pm

re: #653 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

But can you not also build a bridge out of stone?

678 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:09:22pm

re: #670 jorline

Explain the evolution of a platypus...

A beaver got drunk and scrogged a duck.

Next!

679 Ben Hur  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:09:27pm

re: #671 loppyd

Did you read that in Mrs. Hur's copy of What to Expect When You're Expecting?

LOL!

No.

But we did have a class on the same subect.

And thank G-d, because they ain't cute and cuddly when they come out.

680 BulgarWheat  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:09:44pm

re: #670 jorline

so a duck and a beaver walk into a bar...........

/just kidding.

681 OldLineTexan  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:09:48pm

re: #671 loppyd

Did you read that in Mrs. Hur's copy of What to Expect When You're Expecting?

No, it's a new book:

The Freaked-Out First-Time Mother's Guide to Finding Horrible Birth Defects on Your Perfect Newborn: Why All the Doctors and Nurses are Lying to You

682 jorline  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:10:44pm

re: #678 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

A beaver got drunk and scrogged a duck.

Next!

ROTFLMAO

683 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:10:46pm

re: #681 OldLineTexan

No, it's a new book:

The Freaked-Out First-Time Mother's Guide to Finding Horrible Birth Defects on Your Perfect Newborn: Why All the Doctors and Nurses are Lying to You

and the companion:

Why your second child is actually NEVER sick, based on what you kind of remember from your first child.

684 Iron Fist  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:10:48pm

re: #596 Kenneth,

I don't grant that things "look" like they evolved. People who want to see evidence of evolution see it whether or not it is there. Take the fossil record on insects. 100 million years ago, dragonflies were bigger, but they were still discernably dragonflies. Trees were trees, dinosaurs roamed the land. They didn't evolve into anything, they went extinct.

99% of all species go extinct. They don't evolve into anything. The 1% that survive look pretty much the way they've always looked. There are slight variations, but these are slight.

One thing I've always wanted to see is a genetic assay of Darwin's Finches. They won't mate across the islands because of differences in their beaks. This amounts to a racial prejudice among birds. Are they genetically different species? If they would mate, could they produce fertile offspring?

I've never seen the answer to that question.

685 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:10:56pm

My $0.02 again.
I think it would be fine to require science teachers to say something like:
The existence of a Creator is not a scientific question. Nothing in this class can prove or disprove whether all this was an accident or guided or controlled by a Creator. To reconcile what we teach here with your religion, discuss this with your parents and religious authorities.

And then stick to the science.

686 WriterMom  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:11:02pm

re: #681 OldLineTexan

Not funny. Not at all.

687 MandyManners  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:11:23pm

re: #675 Shug

I will argue right now that if evolution is real, that the human species has peaked and will continue to devolve....at least for the next several hundred to thousand years.

Higher educated people in developed countries are not breeding. Welfare bums in western nations are breeding at alarming rates. The Human gene pool is getting more and more shallow. In some places ( the middle east, Ohio ) the Gene pool looks more like a gene puddle
They are inbreeding and also, infants with previously lethal diseases are being kept alive by modern medical technology, to reproduce.

Let the babies die?!

688 jorline  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:11:35pm

re: #680 BulgarWheat

so a duck and a beaver walk into a bar...........

/just kidding.


TOO funny...and?

689 loppyd  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:11:41pm

re: #679 Ben Hur

LOL!

No.

But we did have a class on the same subect.

And thank G-d, because they ain't cute and cuddly when they come out.

It all scares the holy hell out of me.

690 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:11:46pm

re: #651 Charles


I say
and have said
since the beginning of this debate here
that there is deception on all sides

The link you gave me to debunk Behe
was written by John Brockman alone

John Brockman is a very biased source, this was quickly evident.

That does not mean there is not truth in his book, and if Behe has his staggering bias that does not mean there is not truth in his book either

what I am saying here is what I am seeing in researching this stuff is a massive amount of identity politics posturing and perversion of information in the name of both agendas from both sides and incredible intolerance for discussion one side to the other.

How you can see how perverting information is in play on one side and not the other eludes me.

Both sides are full of shit in their own ways,
and the truth lies somewhere in between.

691 oronpam  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:11:59pm

Charles.......how about a new open thread before someone pops a vein in their forhead :-)

692 CheatyPantsMcSweatervest  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:12:05pm

Why does it matter how we got here? I never really got why people get all worked up over something that is impossible to be 100% certain about.

693 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:12:23pm

re: #653 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

BUILD A BRIDGE OUT OF HER!

But can you also make bridges out of stone?

694 WriterMom  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:12:27pm

NEW THREAD. YAY.

695 looking closely  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:12:32pm

re: #635 LanceKates


Please point out a case of microevolution that has taken place that changed the chromosome count due to a need to adapt to the environment.


Why?
Such a change is neither necessary nor sufficient to prove evolution, and such a change would be difficult if not impossible to document in any case.

Also the premise of the question is misleading. Evolution doesn't say that changes occur because of a "need" to adapt to the environment. Evolution occurs because environmental conditions exert selective pressures on populations.

Ipso facto, individuals more suited to their particular environment tend to have survival and reproductive advantages, increasing the proportion of the successful genes within their population. The effect can occur under changing environmental conditions, or stable ones.

696 loppyd  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:12:49pm

re: #686 WriterMom

Not funny. Not at all.

I don't want to speak for Old Line, but I think he was making a dig at the book because it freaks pregnant women out so badly.

697 m  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:13:01pm

re: #665 Kenneth

Why? God could have designed it that way.

Charles made a joke on one of the threads about LGF evolving ... but it certainly didn't evolve without any help from a designer.

698 WriterMom  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:13:04pm

re: #683 LanceKates

Also not funny.

699 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:13:29pm

re: #651 Charles

Dawkins is an aggressive atheist, yes -- but he's also a respected scientist.

he is a fellow traveler of Noam Chomsky and an absolute POS

sorry Charles
Dawkins has a STAGGERING agenda

700 paxnhymn  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:13:30pm

re: #629 Charles

On the other hand, the Discovery Institute is an extremist far-right religious group with a formerly secret agenda to erase the line between science and religion, and promote a Christian theocracy in the US:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]


errr...Charles...shouldn't there be a sarc label in there somewhere...I mean....Wikipedia......


:-D

701 WriterMom  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:13:47pm

re: #696 loppyd

I am very sensitive about the topic.

702 Charles  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:14:08pm

re: #690 BabbaZee

The link you gave me to debunk Behe
was written by John Brockman alone

No, it's not. It's a collection of essays by 16 highly distinguished scientists.

703 Charles  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:14:37pm

re: #700 paxnhymn

errr...Charles...shouldn't there be a sarc label in there somewhere...I mean....Wikipedia......


:-D

Everything in that Wikipedia article is accurate.

704 Shug  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:14:52pm

re: #687 MandyManners

Let the babies die?!

No of course not but an unintended consequence of this form of medical care is that infants with complex birth defects, who would have died, are being kept alive to pass on whatever traits would have killed them.

This effect to me is far less important than the fact that the dregs of crapistan are breeding like tribbles while europeans are not having any children at all

705 looking closely  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:14:57pm

re: #672 LanceKates


Then, there was a witch who was very much evanglizing (who the hell are you to tell me what I experienced?) in talking about what a witch is, what she does, and how great it is.


Did you try to burn her?

/Sorry, couldn't resist.

706 WriterMom  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:15:05pm

re: #689 loppyd

Nothing to be scared of. It's miraculous and the best thing ever. Don't be scared.

707 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:15:14pm

re: #663 wolfie

I do wish there were some way to distinguish between C and ID as putatively scientific theories and C and ID as theological doctrines. I myself like to capitalize
Creationism and Intelligent Design when speaking of the former.
If you say that you can be a Christian w/o believing an intelligent God created the universe, then the word "Christian" has no meaning whatsoever.

As I keep saying, if you guys want to know more about the history of both (and I'm talking creationism as in the YEC stuff, not the belief that God created everything), please read the Ronald L. Numbers book: The Creationists. He talks about the connections between YEC and ID in there.

708 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:15:24pm

re: #670 jorline

Explain the evolution of a platypus...

Funny you should bring this up.
Platypus Genome Explains Animal's Peculiar Features; Holds Clues To Evolution Of Mammals


The duck-billed platypus: part bird, part reptile, part mammal — and the genome to prove it.

An international consortium of scientists, led by Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis, has decoded the genome of the platypus, showing that the animal's peculiar mix of features is reflected in its DNA. An analysis of the genome, published today in the journal Nature, can help scientists piece together a more complete picture of the evolution of all mammals, including humans.

709 Kenneth  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:15:40pm

re: #646 mjwsatx

But do scientists have any right to teach that their discipline can explain both the how and the why about our existence?

Science is never about "why"

710 loppyd  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:15:48pm

re: #701 WriterMom

I am very sensitive about the topic.

{WriterMom}

I know you are.

711 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:15:50pm

re: #665 Kenneth

In other words evolution and natural selection occur, but it's just that God is watching it all? That's ID? That's a dodge, not an explanation.

That's not ID
you said they don't believe in evolution and I corrected that

go thou and click all the links I have posted and read up on it
I can't possibly explain something that complex to you in a blog post
no one can

look up irreducible complexity for starters if you are interested in the theories

712 WriterMom  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:15:51pm

re: #704 Shug

I am so uncomfortable with that post.

713 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:16:28pm

re: #702 Charles

No, it's not. It's a collection of essays by 16 highly distinguished scientists.

Ok then

I will look at those names

The link read :

Intelligent Thought: Science versus the Intelligent Design Movement (Kindle Edition)
by John Brockman

714 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:16:48pm

re: #695 looking closely

Why?
Such a change is neither necessary nor sufficient to prove evolution, and such a change would be difficult if not impossible to document in any case.

Also the premise of the question is misleading. Evolution doesn't say that changes occur because of a "need" to adapt to the environment. Evolution occurs because environmental conditions exert selective pressures on populations.

Ipso facto, individuals more suited to their particular environment tend to have survival and reproductive advantages, increasing the proportion of the successful genes within their population. The effect can occur under changing environmental conditions, or stable ones.

The point made was that macroevolution is just a long series of microevolutions..... My question was how a microevolution led to changes in chromosome counts.

Examples are NOT given, but we are expected to just believe it because that's how macroevolution happened.

Then they call my faith in Creation akin to being a Troofer or terrorist.

715 OldLineTexan  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:17:11pm

Evolution of a parent, from personal experience and cribbed sources:

First child: All bottle nipples and bottles are thoroughly boiled after each and every use. They are air-dried indoors under EPA scrutiny and stored in non-Chinese plastic bags with dates inscribed in non-toxic marker.

Second child: All accessories are washed by hand and tossed in the dish drainer, where they sit until used.

Third child: All accessories are wiped off if the dog chewed them or the cat sat on them.

Fourth child: Raised by first child; I have no recall if a bottle was involved.

/

716 Just Another Four-letter Word  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:17:52pm

re: #417 LanceKates

In high school (lutheran) we discussed both the science of evolution and the science of creation.

We didn't look at it from the Christian Story of Creation, just what evidence exists that things evolved and what evidence exists that suggest that evolution isn't the way it went.

My college, I didn't take biology, just Ecology (yes, a girl was part of my reasoning there.) so I don't know what they taught.

I have NO problem believing in microevolution... macro? eh. no.

Lance, you have brought up interesting points, and I agree with you a LOT on this subject. Micro? Yes, absolutely, happens all the time and is easily provable. Macro? Not so much, as the vernacular says glibly.

Anybody take Statistics and Probability in College? Compute me the time it would take for something to evolve from amoeba to Man using the DNA helix. Y'all who have taken this course will immediately know that, at the rate of one mutation per second, and that the mutation is viable(!), will know that the number of seconds to accomplish this is bigger'n the Age of the Universe. And I am not even a Math major, just a thumb-fingered Engineer.

Calling Evolutionary Theory a "Hard Scientific Fact" flies in the face of... hard scientific fact! Too many holes and I-don't-know's in it, okay? It's a theory, fer Pete's sake! Treat it as one, and don't use it as a crutch or a club, okay?

Do the math.

Oh, and for all of you that say that ID is not scientific because it's unproven, what about Evolutionary Theory? It's unproven also. Where's your Science then?

JAFLW

/Does this make me schizoid believing in Creationism *and* Evolution? Heh.

717 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:18:04pm

re: #698 WriterMom

Also not funny.

also taking a poke at the stereotypical behavior of the experienced parents vs the unexperienced parents.

Case in point: my own.

I am my father's third child. My mother's first.

Guess which one was always quick to assume I was horridly sick and needed the emergency room and which one told me to go put a band-aid on it and take an aspirin?

718 jcm  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:18:28pm

re: #542 jingoisticirredentist

It seems to me that now that LGF has grown large enough, Charles seems to think he can get along without the "fundies" and "creationist" throwbacks, why else continue to start threads where the secularists insult those who do believe in God? This is very much the way the Republican party treats Evangelicals, they want our votes, but then shut up and go away. To the believers, we should never have expected any different treatment. Just remember, "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you." a quote from some knuckle dragging creationist about 2000 years ago.

I'm fundy and creationist (clinging to my guns too). I get along just fine. I also have a B.S. in Bio-Chem and work in electronics.

I actually manage to hold the concepts of Science and Religion in my pea brain with out exploding (hellacious headaches though;-).

There is Science, man attempting to describe the physical world through physical means.

There is Metaphysics, Spirituality, Religion, man attempting to ascertain his meaning and place in Life, the Universe and Everything.

The problem there is a break between the two. The tools of one realm don't work well or at all in the other realm. But we try to make them work.

In between the two realms is a huge, vast territory of UNKOWN once marked on maps as HERE BE DRAGONS. We, mankind, don't like dragon country, we've filled it in through out history. Through out history the ideas have competed for the dragon country with the ferocity of people warring over newly discovered lands.

Both sides err by encroaching into parts of dragon country where the have no business, where the tools don't work. In some respects science is better than metaphysics at recognizing where the tools don't work. Conversely science is dismissive of the dragon country doesn't permit the use of science tools.

Knowing the unknown. To guote Don Rumsfeld we have to know what we don't know. We have to accept and recognize dragon country exists, and will always exist and not try to falsely fill it in. To be brave enough to say, I DO NOT KNOW!

Recognizing the break. We must educate ourselves sufficiently not only to be able to see, understand and draw the line between realms, the edges of dragon country. This education requires an understanding of both realms. Both sides fail in this, dismissing the other out of hand many times.

We have to understand the map, the realms of physics and metaphysics and the dragon country in between. We have to under stand the tools of both realms and where and when they apply. Understanding also, that there are tantalizing overlaps and at these points of commonality where it is altogether not permitable to attempt to redraw the map as one whole territory, accept the point as just that a point.

Finally we have to have sufficient respect for both side to respect the territory both side have claimed. Respect when the tools are used responsibly and properly. Respect valid and substantive claims of both parties.

I have things I "know" physically, and things I "know" spiritually. I can no more prove the spiritually things in laboratory, than I can explain quantum mechanics in a spiritual text.

We all two often bias our opinions to one realm or the other, attempt to redraw the map as one whole realm. That is where the wars begin.

719 loppyd  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:18:30pm

re: #706 WriterMom

Nothing to be scared of. It's miraculous and the best thing ever. Don't be scared.


I can't help it....I think it's because I have waited so long.

720 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:18:58pm

re: #705 looking closely

Did you try to burn her?

/Sorry, couldn't resist.

lol... no. She was the teacher's 'friend'....

PC-hippie that she was.

721 wanumba  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:19:06pm

The decline in Science can be gauged by the SCOOBY-DO factor.

THe original SCOOBY-DO series was a classic instructional show to introduce scientific method via a particular world view, the Judeo-Christian Western world view.

Scooby-DO and the Gang stumble into a haunted house. Ghosts chase them around and scare the daylights out of them until they calm themselves down and begin to THINK. (Velma, the smart science type usually starts the return to sanity) First thought is: Is there another possible explanation for all this apart from ghosts and the supernatural? Which is more likely? Ghosts or something more mundane? A thick black glasses geeky application of Occam's Razor. Backtracking over the scene, they begin to notice things they hadn't while they were frightened - while they were reacting emotionally. Bit by bit, they collect clues that lead them to the answer - unmasking a very human culprit, engaging in the very (regrettably) human pursuit of MONEY or WEALTH.
Kids learned via cartoon that they should not be easily frightened and that calming down to figure things out is good. Rewards await - big yummy sandwiches, many thanks from relieved owners, musem directors, and so forth and silly hippy and dog antics.

Fast forward to the New SCOOBY-DO. Out the window goes the sensible factor. Freddie becomes dumber and less useful than Daphne, Velma seems to have picked up Karate lessons, Shaggy is, well Shaggy, but the pursuit of truth ends up with an acceptance of the supernatural, with "good" witches helping to get the usual Liberal LEft bad guys: corporate bad guys. The Old Scooby-Do rejected the supernatural, ghosts were seen as scary and up to no good, but the new one was introducing kids to a idea that there were real ghosts and witches, and they were okay. Going by emotion trumps unemotional investigation.

Rather neatly sums up what's going on in the schools today.

722 MandyManners  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:19:06pm

Gotta' go.

723 WriterMom  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:19:23pm

re: #717 LanceKates

lance, when you are a parent-judge your parents.

724 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:19:40pm

re: #712 WriterMom

I am so uncomfortable with that post.

There is no 'better' child, nor 'lesser' child. Each has value, worth, and inherent dignity. Each has the right to life and joy and fulfillment. Nothing anyone says, purposefully or by accident, can or will ever change that.

725 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:19:47pm

re: #709 Kenneth

Science is never about "why"

but far too often the how is used as though it were the why.

Especially by those with an agenda.

726 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:19:55pm
727 paxnhymn  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:20:25pm

some thin skins in the room today...almost translucent!
Y'all better stop wearing the Burkhas fellow lizards and get some sun!


:-D

728 WriterMom  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:21:08pm

re: #724 mama winger

mama, a friend of my husband's once asked him if we knew something was wrong with our baby, why we didn't 'do anything' about it? It took my breath away.

729 Roger  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:21:11pm

re: #684 Iron Fist

Shattering the Myths of Darwinism by Richard Milton.

They do breed; matter of preference. "Hey babybirdie! I want your booty beak! - boy finch.

730 m  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:21:25pm

re: #719 loppyd

It IS miraculous and the best thing ever~ and scary too! :D It doesn't stop when they are born either ~ Even when mine were sleeping through the night I was getting up multiple times anyway, just to make sure they were ok :)

731 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:21:32pm

re: #719 loppyd

I can't help it....I think it's because I have waited so long.

The ultimate blessing is a child.

732 jcm  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:21:55pm

re: #678 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

A beaver got drunk and scrogged a duck.

Next!

You owe me a keyboard, two monitors, and a back wall of a cube. I was eating lunch!
ROFLMAO!

733 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:22:00pm

re: #727 paxnhymn

loin girding is a lost art around here

LOL

734 OldLineTexan  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:22:01pm

re: #696 loppyd

I don't want to speak for Old Line, but I think he was making a dig at the book because it freaks pregnant women out so badly.

I was, but I feel no compunction to make everyone share my sense of humor.

We have five healthy children, and a grandson with Down's Syndrome, a heart defect called the Tetralogy of Fallot, and had to have his stomach connected to his small intestine the day after he was born. I can laugh and trust in God's wisdom in His gifts to my daughter or I can cry about it, and no one wants to see a grown man cry.

735 tiburon  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:22:06pm

re: #596 Kenneth

That's actually the problem, Kenneth. It DOESN'T look like it 'evolved' at all. From the Cambrian Explosion, through 'fine tuning' of the cosmological constants, through origins of speech and language - Darwinian (and pls note, that Darwin himself postulated a Creator as 'first cause', obscurantist atheistical evolutionists notwithstanding).
Of course 'micro-evolution' is not contested by the sane and rational, it's well supported throughout the sciences and amenable to observation, even in real time. But there's never emerged remote proofs, only highly speculative and unsupported hypotheses, to explain the emergence the basic body types (just for example), and certainly, CERTAINLY, not enough Time, if we accept Einstein and Quantum Mechanics, for such forms to have emerged from inanimate matter. And then there's the whole problem of 'matter/energy" itself, and the FACT that were the cosmological constants altered by infintessimal amounts, we wouldn't exist (as would not, space, time, stars, heavy elements, etc etc).

"I don't know but it couldn't be ID" on the part of scientists in specific disciplines is not acceptable - too many disciplines have 'hit the wall' now, astrophysics, nuclear physics, biology, etc etc for it to be denied that WE NEED A BETTER EXPLANATION.

This really is akin to the AGW debates. If we burn, we did it, if we freeze, we did it, if it rains or doesn't, storms or is balmy, we did it. Meanwhile, that Nuclear Furnace that appears pretty regularly up there each day, is dismissed as having nothing to do with it, simply impossible.

736 WriterMom  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:22:12pm

re: #730 m

m

I hear mine breathe from my bedroom.

{m}

737 bisi  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:22:47pm

hello, i am a christian and therefore i am a creationist, does this thread imply that i am not welcome here, because i do think the hard hit on creationist is painful and uncalled for, if you don't accept it, its ok but don't talk as if we are stupid.i really do think evolution theory is stupid.
Charles i think you should backup abit on us creationist-christians.

738 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:22:50pm

re: #718 jcm

Son of the Most Big Ot!

739 Dianna  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:23:04pm

re: #633 CyanSnowHawk

I'll pull out the monograph someone wrote on Odin's Ancestors tomorrow evening. If you like, I'll scan it and email it to you. I don't feel comfortable trying to summarize something I read several years ago.

But it's interesting!

740 Vergeltung  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:23:12pm

re: #699 BabbaZee

he is a fellow traveler of Noam Chomsky and an absolute POS

sorry Charles
Dawkins has a STAGGERING agenda

agreed, Dawkins is a complete POS.

741 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:23:19pm

re: #723 WriterMom

lance, when you are a parent-judge your parents.

I don't judge them about it at all.

There are times my mother was likely right and there were times my father was likely right.

However, it still fits the pattern that I alluded to.

I apologize to you for offending you, but as my comment was NOT intended to be offensive, nor was it intended to be belitting, it stands.

742 WriterMom  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:23:22pm

re: #734 OldLineTexan

Thanks for posting that. I took your comment too personally. Sorry.

743 Skaught  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:23:30pm

re: #598 Charles

Intelligent design does not equal Christianity.

Again, that depends on your definition of Intelligent Design apparently. It's a key belief of Christianity that God created the universe and all life in it. That's Intelligent Design.

Scott

744 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:24:01pm

re: #615 Ben Hur

How do you explain my 11th toe?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

A plot by the shoemakers to make the next generation require custom shoes.

745 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:24:02pm

re: #724 mama winger

There is no 'better' child, nor 'lesser' child. Each has value, worth, and inherent dignity. Each has the right to life and joy and fulfillment. Nothing anyone says, purposefully or by accident, can or will ever change that.

Exactly.

My point about the treatment difference is not based on the value of the child, but the experience of the parent.

746 WriterMom  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:24:23pm

re: #741 LanceKates

I'm not offended, and you don't need to apologize. We're just here shooting the breeze.

747 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:24:50pm

re: #728 WriterMom

mama, a friend of my husband's once asked him if we knew something was wrong with our baby, why we didn't 'do anything' about it? It took my breath away.

I know. {WriterMom} My brother was born handicapped.

Then 25 years later, my doctor told me to abort Little Winger. Said he would be 'fetal wastage'.


bah

748 looking closely  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:25:24pm

re: #714 LanceKates

The point made was that macroevolution is just a long series of microevolutions..... My question was how a microevolution led to changes in chromosome counts.

Examples are NOT given, but we are expected to just believe it because that's how macroevolution happened.

Then they call my faith in Creation akin to being a Troofer or terrorist.

The distinction between micro- and macro-evolution is somewhat artificial.

If you want a specific example, there is good evidence that shows that humans 23 chromosomes are similar in composition to ape's 24 chromosomes, with human chromosome 2 being a fusion product of two similar ape chromosomes.

That would be a pretty bizarre coincidence (to put it mildly) if humans and apes didn't at least share a common ancestor. And it is a specific example of chromosome count changes due to what might be termed "micro-evolution".

Of course nobody can *EXACTLY* point to the individual/time point when this putative fusion occured, for obvious reasons. We don't have an unbroken DNA record of humanity (or ANY species for that matter) for the last several hundred thousand years.

I would never presume to use logic to argue someone out of a faith-based belief.

For the Nth time, evolution by itself does NOT contradict the concept of a creator.

749 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:25:26pm

re: #737 bisi

hello, i am a christian and therefore i am a creationist, does this thread imply that i am not welcome here, because i do think the hard hit on creationist is painful and uncalled for, if you don't accept it, its ok but don't talk as if we are stupid.i really do think evolution theory is stupid.
Charles i think you should backup abit on us creationist-christians.

Again, as has been said before, one need not be a YEC to be a Christian.

750 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:25:36pm

re: #746 WriterMom

I'm not offended, and you don't need to apologize. We're just here shooting the breeze.

no worries.

751 loppyd  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:25:46pm

re: #734 OldLineTexan

God bless you all, OldLine.

752 jcm  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:25:50pm

re: #738 BabbaZee

Son of the Most Big Ot!

What the heck did I just type?
oy vey!

;-P

753 wanumba  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:25:58pm

re: #612 Killgore Trout

It's time to give up another easily debunked talking point. Evolution is not an atheist plot to destroy god......
Breakdown of religion and acceptance of evolution.
It is widely accepted among Jews, Christians, Protestants, Buddhists, Hindus and even a few Muslims.


Doesn't the nature of Hinduism lend itself somewhat to the concept of evolution?
Popularity of a concept can't be used as proof that it's valid. Global Warming is also widely accepted amongst Jews, Christians, Protestants, Bhuddists, Hindus and even a few Muslims.

Is Protestant a different religion from Christians?

754 yma o hyd  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:25:58pm

re: #718 jcm

That is such an outstanding explanation - if i were a moonbat, I'd say 'right on, mun!'

755 m  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:26:15pm

re: #728 WriterMom

{Writermom}! Oh dear. That is terrible.

756 FoolsMate  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:26:28pm

re: #295 LanceKates

What is the title, publisher and ISBN number of this book?

757 wolfie  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:27:02pm

re: #663 wolfie

I do wish there were some way to distinguish between C and ID as putatively scientific theories and C and ID as theological doctrines. I myself like to capitalize
Creationism and Intelligent Design when speaking of the former.
If you say that you can be a Christian w/o believing an intelligent God created the universe, then the word "Christian" has no meaning whatsoever.

re: #707 Honorary Yooper

As I keep saying, if you guys want to know more about the history of both (and I'm talking creationism as in the YEC stuff, not the belief that God created everything), please read the Ronald L. Numbers book: The Creationists. He talks about the connections between YEC and ID in there.

Except for the fact that you bothered to put in the parenthetical distinction, I don't see what your answer has to do with my comment.

758 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:27:15pm

re: #748 looking closely

I don't claim that it does.

I believe in creation and have no problem if someone wants to believe in evolution.

I disagree with it obviously, but that's fine.

I do take offense when people who believe in evolution feel free to compare creationists to troofers and terrorists and insult us for our belief.

759 Dianna  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:27:19pm

re: #649 bunker buster

She probably called herself a witch. I so wish the Wiccans would stop that; it doesn't contribute much.

760 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:27:34pm
761 looking closely  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:27:38pm

re: #716 Just Another Four-letter Word


Calling Evolutionary Theory a "Hard Scientific Fact" flies in the face of... hard scientific fact! Too many holes and I-don't-know's in it, okay? It's a theory, fer Pete's sake! Treat it as one, and don't use it as a crutch or a club, okay?

Do the math.


Do you subscribe to the theory of gravity?

(The term "theory" in the scientific sense doesn't mean an untested hypothesis, it means a comprehensive explanation that unifies a diverse set of facts. Theories absolutely CAN be proven or disproven, to the extent that anything can be. )

762 mama winger  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:27:49pm

OK - I am really going to clean that closet now.

Nobody talk to me ! lol

763 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:27:50pm

re: #749 Honorary Yooper

Again, as has been said before, one need not be a YEC to be a Christian.

No, but one can be both and ought not be ridiculed by those who are not.

764 guitarguy  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:28:04pm

re: #578 Ghostbuster

If we all evolved from monkeys, maybe someone could explain why we don't see some monkeys in transition at the present time ..... or is that what some folks call democrats? Just wondering ....

We did not evolve from monkeys........
[Link: www.pbs.org...]

765 FoolsMate  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:28:26pm

re: #357 nikis-knight

Here? You get that here? Do you have links?

See #91

766 loppyd  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:28:29pm

re: #730 m

It IS miraculous and the best thing ever~ and scary too! :D It doesn't stop when they are born either ~ Even when mine were sleeping through the night I was getting up multiple times anyway, just to make sure they were ok :)

When I lived at home for that short stint a few years back, my mom started waking in the night to check on me. I was 34. LOL

767 jcm  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:28:38pm

re: #762 mama winger

OK - I am really going to clean that closet now.

Nobody talk to me ! lol

Careful be on the look out for...
MONSTERS!

768 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:29:04pm

re: #756 FoolsMate

What is the title, publisher and ISBN number of this book?

you got me. As I explained to someone else, I'm at work and my books are not.

However, given your already known biased nature against us, I suggest that any 'proof' I provide will be ignored.

So my motivation to help you out is pretty low.

769 Thanos  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:29:08pm

re: #558 Charles

I'm familiar with Michael Behe, and very unimpressed with his work. In each case where he claims to have found "irreducible complexity," it's been shown to be false. And the fact that he responds (as so many ID advocates do) with claims of being suppressed rather than scientific argument is very telling.


And it almost never fails that the examples they give all come from one place:

[Link: www.discovery.org...]

770 Kenneth  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:29:11pm

re: #711 BabbaZee

I have read Behe's ideas about irreducible complexity, and I think he is wrong. He starts from a religious assumption, (which is fine, if he were to stick to theology) and creates an argument to "prove" his assumption. He selects only the evidence that supports his argument, ignores anything contrary, and concludes his assumption is therefore proven correct. He employs clever rhetorical devices to force his arguments instead of rational deductive logic

Behe's approach is the very antitheses of the scientific method. His books are philosophy, not science.

771 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:29:43pm

re: #761 looking closely

Do you subscribe to the theory of gravity?

(The term "theory" in the scientific sense doesn't mean an untested hypothesis, it means a comprehensive explanation that unifies a diverse set of facts. Theories absolutely CAN be proven or disproven, to the extent that anything can be. )

then what is your answer for the rest of the post, except to discuss the use of the word 'theory' ?

772 sparrowlake  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:29:54pm

re: #657 tiburon

it's IMHO wild superstition to believe Our Universe is NOT product of ID. Hence I see those vociferously defending "evolution", punctuated or otherwise, (I mean those insisting it's "all just chance and inevitable product of deep time") as sufficient explanation of our Existence

Two Questions:
1. Is "wild" superstition like when you jump up and down yelling OOGABOOGA?
2. Do scientists really tout evolutionary theory as "sufficient explanation of our Existence"?

773 debutaunt  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:30:11pm

re: #644 Ben Hur

Why do babies have multiple nipples when born?

Wait, even better, Why do men have nipples?

Whatever happened to that nipple-nipple video?

774 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:31:08pm

re: #737 bisi

hello, i am a christian and therefore i am a creationist, does this thread imply that i am not welcome here, because i do think the hard hit on creationist is painful and uncalled for, if you don't accept it, its ok but don't talk as if we are stupid.i really do think evolution theory is stupid.
Charles i think you should backup abit on us creationist-christians.

Having read this entire thread, I do not see ridicule within against creationist-Christians.

775 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:31:11pm

re: #753 wanumba

Doesn't the nature of Hinduism lend itself somewhat to the concept of evolution?


Not really. They have a miraculous creation myth like most religions. I think the key to the Hindu view of evolution is that Indians (especially immigrants to the us) put a very high premium on education. Look at the kids that are winning science fairs, spelling bees, chess tournaments. You'll see a lot of Indian kids there.

Is Protestant a different religion from Christians?

Sorry, meant to say 'Catholics"

776 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:31:17pm

re: #772 sparrowlake

Two Questions:
1. Is "wild" superstition like when you jump up and down yelling OOGABOOGA?
2. Do scientists really tout evolutionary theory as "sufficient explanation of our Existence"?

1. Don't know.

2. Educators do. That is the beef.

777 debutaunt  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:31:24pm

re: #649 bunker buster

How do you knoooow she's a witch?

The real ones float.

778 bunker buster  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:31:32pm

re: #759 Dianna

She probably called herself a witch. I so wish the Wiccans would stop that; it doesn't contribute much.

It was a joke - I was making a reference to Monty Python and the Holy Grail. See Kragar's response at #653

779 OldLineTexan  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:31:49pm

re: #742 WriterMom

Thanks for posting that. I took your comment too personally. Sorry.

You don't owe me an apology. Without loppyd's intercession, I would have just gone on without answering you. Since she gave me such a perfect opportunity to share, I did.

780 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:31:59pm

re: #774 unrealizedviewpoint

Having read this entire thread, I do not see ridicule within against creationist-Christians.

Yeah, there is.

Though it is dishonest to suggest that ONLY this thread can stand as evidence as ridicule against creationists.

781 wanumba  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:32:03pm

re: #743 Skaught

Again, that depends on your definition of Intelligent Design apparently. It's a key belief of Christianity that God created the universe and all life in it. That's Intelligent Design.
Scott

That's intelligent design as an adjective, but it's not Intelligent Design as the specific title of a particular theory. Just as "intelligent design" or "Intelligent Design " are NOT synonyms for the religion of Christianity.

That's one BIG reason these debates get all slopped out - either deliberately or careflessly or ignorantly using terms interchangeably that are not the same terms at all.

782 wolfie  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:32:17pm

re: #726 buzzsawmonkey

The fact that the word "day" could mean an era was known to Christian writers as early as Origen (2nd century.) I honestly don't know, but I will guess that Jewish scholars had pointed it out even earlier. Philo maybe? I dunno.

783 mrsoc  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:32:26pm

re: #69 Kirly

I have noticed that some atheists spend more time thinking about the God they claim doesn't exist than I (who know He exists) do. I think of them as fundamentalist atheists. My sister is one. They are more religious in their way than I could ever hope to be. Ah well, I'd rather be considered mad in this world and be rewarded in the next than the other way around. Besides, I cannot imagine being Godless in a world like this one. It would be the rapids with no boat at all.
Don't let it bother you Kirly-we get small poop from people compared to what some go through for their faith. He watches and knows-you are getting credit for being steadfast, if nothing else. (And polite, very polite.)

784 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:32:33pm

re: #672 LanceKates

Nope, once again, the point does NOT stand.

The preacher was called, by the students, because they wanted to talk to their youth pastor after a student died. He was turned away by the SCHOOL, despite the request of the students in his own youth group, because there can't be anything religious involved in school.

Then, there was a witch who was very much evanglizing (who the hell are you to tell me what I experienced?) in talking about what a witch is, what she does, and how great it is.

Okay, it must have been the Witch conspiracy to recruit impressionable children to come over to their gingerbread houses so that they could be roasted and eaten on Samhain. I'm surprised I missed that connection since it is such a common occurrence.

785 Silhouette  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:32:41pm

re: #748 looking closely

That would be a pretty bizarre coincidence (to put it mildly) if humans and apes didn't at least share a common ancestor.

Or a common designer who used the same design elements in various creations.

The "similarity" argument is evidence for both schools of thought.

786 formercorpsman  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:33:02pm

re: #719 loppyd

I did not know you were expecting.

Congratulations.

As a dad, the moment in time produced so many levels of pondering I never knew.

I am sure you will do great.

787 Thanos  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:33:11pm

Theory of Gravitation - subset of relativity theory
Law of Gravity, support of the theory of Gravitation.

/just heading that discussion off at the pass, we've been there done that a few times already, it's a rabbit trail.

788 paxnhymn  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:33:13pm

re: #734 OldLineTexan


Tetralogy of fallot is fairly easily(well, lemme rephrase that , 'cause ther are more than one surgical procedure required. I'm sorry. My callous former clinician is coming out.) Very treatable now, my friend. And with good results.

789 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:33:23pm

re: #784 CyanSnowHawk

Okay, it must have been the Witch conspiracy to recruit impressionable children to come over to their gingerbread houses so that they could be roasted and eaten on Samhain. I'm surprised I missed that connection since it is such a common occurrence.

Typical.

Easier to insult than admit that you are wrong.

Boo. bad form.

790 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:33:33pm

re: #769 Thanos

And it almost never fails that the examples they give all come from one place:

[Link: www.discovery.org...]

I did not give examples from there at all
Not one

Click my links

791 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:34:35pm

re: #786 formercorpsman

WHAT?

I missed this in all the serious debate.

Loppy ! you on the nest, woman?

792 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:36:32pm

re: #739 Dianna

I'll pull out the monograph someone wrote on Odin's Ancestors tomorrow evening. If you like, I'll scan it and email it to you. I don't feel comfortable trying to summarize something I read several years ago.

But it's interesting!

As part of a Viking reenactment group, I have done some bit of study on the matter. I would be interested in that. I've put my gmail email in the box above, so you should be able to get that to me.

I won't be able to look at it until tonight though.

793 Cpt. Disco  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:36:37pm

re: #761 looking closely

I don't mean to jump in on this, but isn't it the LAW of gravity?

794 mrsoc  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:36:43pm

re: #563 BabbaZee

I thump, too!

795 wolfie  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:36:59pm

re: #743 Skaught

Again, that depends on your definition of Intelligent Design apparently. It's a key belief of Christianity that God created the universe and all life in it. That's Intelligent Design.

Scott

NO. That's intelligent design. The current, specific theories of Intelligent Design may or may not be true. They are interesting, but not now accepted by science. Nor are these specific views are a part of traditional Christian doctrine.

796 loppyd  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:37:07pm

re: #791 BabbaZee

WHAT?

I missed this in all the serious debate.

Loppy ! you on the nest, woman?

No! Getting mentally and physically prepared though....

797 Cygnus  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:37:45pm

re: #41 FoolsMate

You haven't seen snide comments, disregard, and condescension until you've seen the treatment atheists get from evangelists and fundies.

Old-Earth believers get the same treatment also. Dr. Hugh Ross of Reasons to Believe is constantly being called a 'compromiser' and a 'heretic'.

798 loppyd  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:37:51pm

and now I am off to get a lovely iced coffee while I'm still allowed. LOL

BBL maybe

799 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:38:06pm
800 Wendya  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:38:11pm

re: #69 Kirly

yeah. is it?

the more threads like these, the more i see many lizards hate me and hate my faith. never a good reason why though as i have never done them any harm.

Wow... people here on LGF have said they personally hate you and hate your religion? Gee... I'm sorry to hear that. I haven't seen those particular posts so I'll take your word for it.

Do you think it might be possible though that those people don't really hate you or your religion....they're just not giving you and your faith the respect you believe you're entitled to?

Respect....the funny thing about it is we often want our personal opinions and our faith to be respected but the nature of our faith and opinions often precludes us from equally respecting those of others, wouldn't you agree?

801 jcm  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:38:26pm

re: #784 CyanSnowHawk

MMMMMM! Gingerbread!

802 looking closely  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:38:28pm

re: #771 LanceKates

then what is your answer for the rest of the post, except to discuss the use of the word 'theory' ?


If you insist:


Anybody take Statistics and Probability in College? Compute me the time it would take for something to evolve from amoeba to Man using the DNA helix. Y'all who have taken this course will immediately know that, at the rate of one mutation per second, and that the mutation is viable(!), will know that the number of seconds to accomplish this is bigger'n the Age of the Universe. And I am not even a Math major, just a thumb-fingered Engineer.


Its a complete non-sequitur. I suppose its possible to do that calculation, but its largely irrelevant.

Nobody has claimed that man evolved directly from amebas.
And nobody has claimed that any such evolution was directly linear.

Its entirely possible (and in fact quite likely) that there was "parallel processing" going on, which is to say that the human genome (or any modern animals) is ultimately derived from a fusion of genomes of MANY precursor animals that evolved simultaneously or over different time periods. Also, multiple genes are always being selected for at the same time, again meaning a not-entirely linear progression.

There is good molecular evidence for this as well, though I'm not going into it, because again, I'm not going to be able to convince anyone with facts what they have come to believe with their heart.

803 annar  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:39:14pm

re: #97 Honorary Yooper

Exactly, Charles. That's one of the reasons this whole "debate" is nuts.

Folks, only one side of this has ever tried making the teaching of the other illegal. And failing that, they ask for "equal time". It smacks of liberalism if you ask me. How different is asking for equal time for this from the so-called fairness doctrine? How different is it from the politicians and zealots who make anything contradicting global warming/climate change illegal?

Also, to be fair and give due credit, the Catholics were pushing the Christian superstition long before today's revisionist 'born agains', and the creationist/intelligent? design cults were dreamt up.

804 OldLineTexan  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:39:36pm

re: #788 paxnhymn

Tetralogy of fallot is fairly easily(well, lemme rephrase that , 'cause ther are more than one surgical procedure required. I'm sorry. My callous former clinician is coming out.) Very treatable now, my friend. And with good results.

Oh, they give him very good odds. His parents are fattening him up per the doctor's orders, and keeping him basically isolated so he doesn't get sick. They are holding off on the surgery until he is at least six months old, which is approaching rapidly.

805 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:39:42pm

re: #800 Wendya

Respect....the funny thing about it is we often want our personal opinions and our faith to be respected but the nature of our faith and opinions often precludes us from equally respecting those of others, wouldn't you agree?

Are you suggesting that the ridicule of Creationists is the fault of Creationists being Creationists?

806 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:39:48pm

re: #739 Dianna

I'll pull out the monograph someone wrote on Odin's Ancestors tomorrow evening. If you like, I'll scan it and email it to you. I don't feel comfortable trying to summarize something I read several years ago.

But it's interesting!

I'll try again on the email.

807 formercorpsman  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:41:09pm

re: #791 BabbaZee

I tried going back through the thread, and that is what I gleaned form it.

However, I could be wrong, and stirring some shit I never intended.

I guess I'll see.

808 Thanos  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:41:19pm

re: #790 BabbaZee

I did not give examples from there at all
Not one

Click my links


Gosh Babba, I was replying to Charles. Jumped into this late. Didn't read upthread.

As an aetheist however, I'm not going to get in a huffmobile over some idiot with a sign. How do I know he's an idiot? The Expelled poster on the back of his sign, and the fact that he's attacking aetheism rather than promoting his faith.

I've got no beef with you if you want to believe in Intelligent design, I don't presume to think I know enough about how life or the universe started to question anyone else's beliefs (well ok, that world on the back of a giant turtle religion makes me wonder -- what happens if the turtle goes for a swim after all?)

I do have a beef with the Discovery Institute and their stealth attack on evolution, science, aetheism, and the constitution. If they can show us the science, then maybe they can bring it to science class, til then it needs to stay out.

809 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:41:24pm

re: #770 Kenneth

I have read Behe's ideas about irreducible complexity, and I think he is wrong. He starts from a religious assumption, (which is fine, if he were to stick to theology) and creates an argument to "prove" his assumption. He selects only the evidence that supports his argument, ignores anything contrary, and concludes his assumption is therefore proven correct. He employs clever rhetorical devices to force his arguments instead of rational deductive logic

Behe's approach is the very antitheses of the scientific method. His books are philosophy, not science.



We must be reading entirely different books.

I do not see what you are saying to be true at all
this is not religion

And beyond that

you don't address the other links to B'or HaTorah or the other scientists
No one ever addresses Antony Flew
and
I have no desire to prove any theory over another
to you or anyone
religious or scientific

I don't know how many times I have to say that here.

Meantime "theory" becomes science while others remain "theories" based solely on who is in control of the terms and definitions in the debate.

and this is what this bullshit is really all about

many of the same people insisting ID is a theory say global warming is science

There is bullshit on all sides

I know you are
but what am I

again and again and again

dull

there is no reason for

810 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:41:25pm

re: #802 looking closely

so the time it would take has no bearing?

If humans didn't originally come from the 'primordial ooze' through evolution as the first set of proteins crossed path with another set of proteins, then where did we come from?

811 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:42:01pm

re: #794 mrsoc

Excellent!

812 jorline  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:42:04pm

re: #708 Killgore Trout

The fascinating mix of features in the platypus genome provides many clues to the function and evolution of all mammalian genomes," says Richard K. Wilson, Ph.D., director of the The Genome Center at Washington University and the paper's senior author. "By comparing the platypus genome to other mammalian genomes, we'll be able to study genes that have been conserved throughout evolution."


Similar genes are found in animals that rely on a sense of smell, such as rodents and dogs, and the scientists suspect that their addition in the platypus allows the animals to detect odors while foraging underwater.

At roughly 2.2 billion base pairs, the platypus genome is about two-thirds the size of the human genome and contains about 18,500 genes, similar to other vertebrates. The animal has 52 chromosomes, including an unusual number of sex chromosomes: 10. The platypus X chromosome bears resemblance to the sex chromosome of a bird, known as Z.

Sequencing and assembling the platypus genome proved far more daunting than sequencing any other mammalian genome to date. About 50 percent of the genome is composed of repetitive elements of DNA, which makes it a challenge to assemble properly.


Thank you for the link. Scientist still sound stumped and they didn't explain anything about the platypus

813 wolfie  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:42:04pm

re: #781 wanumba

That's intelligent design as an adjective, but it's not Intelligent Design as the specific title of a particular theory. Just as "intelligent design" or "Intelligent Design " are NOT synonyms for the religion of Christianity.

That's one BIG reason these debates get all slopped out - either deliberately or careflessly or ignorantly using terms interchangeably that are not the same terms at all.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.
But I am beginning to wonder why so many don't make those careful distinctions.

814 looking closely  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:42:44pm

re: #785 Silhouette

Or a common designer who used the same design elements in various creations.

The "similarity" argument is evidence for both schools of thought.


I don't buy this.

What possible reason would a (so-called) intelligent designer have in creating a fusion chromosome similar to that in other species?

If you are going to build things from legos, why invent a special arguably defective lego for one house when you could use ready-made ones?

815 Urso1  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:43:10pm

re: #112 Charles

I haven't seen one person call creationists "stupid" in this thread. It would be nice if the discussion could take place without thin-skinned exaggeration.


Actually, the whole antagonist-protagonist thing is quite silly> I'm an evangelical. God created. He may have used evolution as a template. No biggy. I see No reason why God couldn't have put things into motion in a gradual "simmering' fashion. Does that invalidate Genesis. Nope. If God would have told Moses that he came from an evolving mass of DNA ribbon, his response would've been a "Whatchu talkin' bout Willis?" Kinda response. Knowledge is revealed as we progress. as we stretch ourselves out of our zone of comfort. The two are NOT mutually exclusive. It gets tedious listening to the banter.

Bingo! I am Christian and have no trouble in believing in "God created everything" and Evolution. That's why there seems to be set rules for all natural process, HE is a creator, not a micro-manager.

816 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:43:42pm

re: #796 loppyd

No! Getting mentally and physically prepared though....

Ohhh kay

817 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:44:43pm

re: #808 Thanos

I have been researching it all
{Thanos}

The lies are everywhere

818 jcm  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:44:43pm

re: #815 Urso1

HE is a creator, not a micro-manager.

No wonder I never win the lottery!
/ ;-P

819 paxnhymn  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:45:18pm

re: #814 looking closely

I don't buy this.

What possible reason would a (so-called) intelligent designer have in creating a fusion chromosome similar to that in other species?

If you are going to build things from legos, why invent a special arguably defective lego for one house when you could use ready-made ones?


BIG LEGOS IS RIPPIN" US OFF!

820 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:45:56pm

re: #814 looking closely

What possible reason would a (so-called) intelligent designer have in creating a fusion chromosome similar to that in other species?

you have a big bag of legos and you're building airplanes, cars, houses.... are you really all that suprised if there are yellow legos in all three?

821 TheUnrepentantGeek  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:45:59pm

re: #703 Charles

Everything in that Wikipedia article is accurate.

Or it was when you looked at it last anyway ... I guess :P

How's that LGF article doing these days?

822 paxnhymn  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:46:01pm

re: #818 jcm

No wonder I never win the lottery!
/ ;-P

there , there JCM..lemme help you....BUY A DAMN TICKET!


:-D

823 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:46:19pm

re: #792 CyanSnowHawk

part of a Viking reenactment group

Sounds fun
to get to rape and pillage?

LOL

824 wolfie  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:46:20pm

re: #799 buzzsawmonkey

Indeed! And, to me, a very interesting post.
(I didn't means to suggest a Jewish v. Christian thing either, BTW.)

825 3 wood  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:46:29pm

In other news, the Cubs got beat by the Reds 9 - 0. Reds hit 6 homers, 4 off of John Lieber.

Ouch.

826 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:46:53pm

re: #822 paxnhymn

there , there JCM..lemme help you....BUY A DAMN TICKET!


:-D

My track record in powerball is the same with a ticket as it is without.

I lose less money without.

827 BabbaZee  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:46:53pm

Do you get

to rape and pillage

it should have read

828 Thanos  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:47:18pm

Work calls, back later

829 Charles  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:48:07pm

re: #821 TheUnrepentantGeek

Or it was when you looked at it last anyway ... I guess :P

How's that LGF article doing these days?

It's doing fine, because Wikipedia put it on a protected list to prevent vandalism.

It's a little foolish to deny the existence of the Wedge Strategy, by the way - the Discovery Institute has openly admitted that the document is genuine.

830 sparrowlake  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:48:12pm

re: #712 WriterMom

I am so uncomfortable with that post.

Would that possibly have something to do with the fact that it was a fascist, racist, rant?

831 Psaturn  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:48:20pm

re: #36 Charles

By the way, there is nothing essentially "Christian" about creationism. The Catholic Church, for example, has specifically renounced creationism (and intelligent design) and stated that Darwin's theory of evolution is not opposed to Christian faith.

Hi Charles!

I would like to respectfully disagree with you on that one.

The official position of Catholic Church (of which I grew up in, and so I am personally familiar with) is this:

Evolution is not a fact, but a set of theories. Some of the theories are very compelling, such as fossil records and observed micro evolution within species, while many aspects of evolutionary theory have been proved wrong by science itself. The irreducible complexity of each species is something modern science has been unable to explain. A Catholic may interpret the book of Genesis literally or as an allegory. However any theory that is believed by a Catholic must meet the following criteria:

1.God created everything out of nothing ("ex nihlo" in Latin)
2. God created an orderly universe (the universe is not a product of chance)
3. God sustained everything in being (everything depends on God for existence)

Some faithful Catholics believe that the book of Genesis describes word for word what happened when God made creation. They believe it took 168 hours to create the world (7 x 24hrs) In the first 3 days God created the sky, earth and water, in the next 3 days he populated sky, earth and water. Then on the last day he rested. They cite that the Hebrew word “Yom” is always used in the Bible as one literal day and they suggest that if we are asked to rest on the seventh day (as God did) then it is literally “one” day. Other faithful Catholics consider Genesis to be a book of allegory. They say the number 7 in Scripture is often used to represent perfection, and that the 7 days of creation were not to be interpreted literally but rather to signify the perfection of God's creation. They believe "a thousand years in your sight are like yesterday when its past or like a watch in the night" (Ps 90:4). This was St. Augustine's position in the 4th century. In other words, if there was a "Big Bang" and a certain amount of evolution within each species, it was God that made it happen and that the creation of the human being was something very deliberate and a singular event (even if there were a series of steps to get there). Pope John Paul II said that Genesis 1 and 2 are not trying to communicate scientific data to us. However, this is not an infallible statement. The Catechism says:

337 God himself created the visible world in all its richness, diversity and order. Scripture presents the work of the Creator symbolically as a succession of six days of divine "work", concluded by the "rest" of the seventh day. On the subject of creation, the sacred text teaches the truths revealed by God for our salvation, permitting us to "recognize the inner nature, the value and the ordering of the whole of creation to the praise of God."

See also Chapters 282-289 of the Catechism. The International Theological Commission, headed by then Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger now Pope Benedict XVI, statement "Communion and Stewardship: Human Persons Created in the Image of God," plenary sessions held in Rome 2000-2002, published July 2004, weighed in on the side of an old earth. The full publication is here.

It appears the Church is leaning toward a symbolic interpretation of Genesis, although the faithful may hold either position as long as they believe in the three indisputable dogmatic facts (1) that God created everything out of nothing, (2) he created an orderly universe, and (3) that he sustains everything in being.

From this site: [Link: www.davidmacd.com...]

832 jcm  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:48:24pm

re: #814 looking closely

I don't buy this.

What possible reason would a (so-called) intelligent designer have in creating a fusion chromosome similar to that in other species?

If you are going to build things from legos, why invent a special arguably defective lego for one house when you could use ready-made ones?

Speaking form the scriptural / spiritual side. When man sinned, he not only introduced sin into himself but into creation. Sin is corruption, therefore a corrupting element was introduce into creation.

833 looking closely  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:48:26pm

re: #810 LanceKates

so the time it would take has no bearing?

If humans didn't originally come from the 'primordial ooze' through evolution as the first set of proteins crossed path with another set of proteins, then where did we come from?


You miss the point.

If you're counting from one to a million, one per second it will take you two years to get there.

But if ten people are each counting to 100,000, you'll get there in under three months.

The point is, the assumption that a human is the end-stage of a perfectly linear series of mutations, one at a time over a gazillion years, with every intermediate step represented, is not a good explanation for what happened. That's a myth, and nobody who understands evolution really thinks it happened that way.

If you want to go back to the "primordial ooze" so to speak to explain the origin of species, the genomes of advanced organisms are undoubtedly fusion products of the genomes of MANY less well-developed organisms, each one of them evolving either in parallel or separately.

834 Endangered in MASS  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:48:53pm

re: #662 conservativeChick

" I hope that they respect mine."

(channeling Mayor Quimby) That depends on how hot you are.

835 jcm  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:48:55pm

re: #822 paxnhymn

there , there JCM..lemme help you....BUY A DAMN TICKET!


:-D

Shit! I knew there was catch!

836 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:49:55pm

re: #812 jorline

Scientist still sound stumped and they didn't explain anything about the platypus

I think the big thing they learned is that the platypus isn't just an odd evolutionary offshoot but it's a transitional species between reptiles, birds and mammals. It's very exiting.

837 jcm  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:50:23pm

re: #826 LanceKates

My track record in powerball is the same with a ticket as it is without.

I lose less money without.

I bought a Mega millions ticket once when it was around 300 million, I happen to be in line at counter that sold tickets, my change happened to be a buck.

WTH!

838 Psaturn  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:50:25pm

re: #770 Kenneth

I have read Behe's ideas about irreducible complexity, and I think he is wrong. He starts from a religious assumption, (which is fine, if he were to stick to theology) and creates an argument to "prove" his assumption. He selects only the evidence that supports his argument, ignores anything contrary, and concludes his assumption is therefore proven correct. He employs clever rhetorical devices to force his arguments instead of rational deductive logic

Behe's approach is the very antitheses of the scientific method. His books are philosophy, not science.

Kenneth, then you should read the latest paleontology papers...most have started from a certain assumption...that of the evolutionary atheistic assumption. Evolutionary theory is very philosophical in nature. I know....I majored in Biology!

839 TheUnrepentantGeek  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:50:31pm

Oh, and someone made a good point earlier and it's gone largely ignored.

If we posit an omniscient, omnipotent being, how can we say that all of reality was not created 42 minutes ago, mankind's memories included?

At some point, one must make a faith based choice. I resent many atheists for their assertions that I am somehow irrational in believing as I do when the entire basis for the argument hinges on a question no one will ever be able to definitively answer.

Science is incapable of addressing certain cross sections of human experience. Many scientists, rather than accept and acknowledge these epistemiological limitations, have chosen to claim that that which they are incapable of measuring does not exist - a logical fallacy.

840 Kenneth  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:50:32pm

re: #802 looking closely

The earliest evidence of life on earth is some 3.5 billion years old, or 110,376 trillion seconds. That's quite a bit of time for a lot of mutations.

841 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:50:50pm

re: #789 LanceKates

Typical.

Easier to insult than admit that you are wrong.

Boo. bad form.

Why admit I am wrong when I am not? I have continued to argue the single point that the preacher was prevented performing his religious duties on the school grounds, while the Witch was there in a simply informational aspect, which is the very situation that you presented in your first post about the issue. I have not wavered from that, yet you refuse to see the distinct difference that I continued to point out. So I acknowledged that refusal in an over the top manner indicative of the way I felt by your refusal to acknowledge that there is even a difference between ministering to your flock and telling people what your beliefs are about.

I'm off to get some lunch and then have work to quit ignoring and won't be back until late this evening. Good day sir.

842 paxnhymn  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:51:03pm

re: #836 Killgore Trout

that's exciting? Kil, My man, you need to get out more....

843 FoolsMate  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:51:28pm

re: #840 Kenneth

That's impossible! The Earth is only 6000 years old!
/

844 tiburon  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:51:47pm

re: #761 looking closely
Can't say I can work out where you stand in this debate, and when the thread hit's 700 it slows way down, so I"m outta here...
But "theory of gravity"? Gravity IS, and we can see it at work micro and macro, but no one has explained it, at all.

Schroeder had a helpful image we could all profit by - as we sit here typing away at our keyboards and sipping our beverages, bear in mind there are 'others', directly opposite, doing the same, who are NOT standing on their heads.

Someone commented above that one could not garner insight as to science from 'spiritual' texts (read, if you prefer - Mystical Texts).
I'd redirect those who concur to Torah, (in the original Edenic, please) or to various works, such as "The Emptiness of the Unreal" out of ancient China. Nachmanides described the Big Bang precisely, exigent from the Text, 1200 years ago - and this was not for any 'scientific' purpose, (nor 'political'), but rather for "spiritual" insight.
I think we'll soon be seeing insights that aid our understandings of Quantum Mechanics and Unified Field Theory emerging from Scriptural Study (in the original, as above), and from other sources less conflicted than we are today, in acceptance of a Created Universe.
There are more things 'tween Heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy (or to that effect) by the Bard...

And Charles? Your debunking book has an editorial review on Amazon: - "Evolutionary science lies at the heart of a modern understanding of the natural world. Darwin-s theory has withstood 150 years of scientific scrutiny, and today it not only explains the origin and design of living things..."
I won't bother reading it, as quite to the contrary and in fact, 150 years of intense exploration in paleontology has yet to bridge the Gaps. And as to 'explaining the origin and design of living things', well....Hubris. Shades of the AlGore.

845 LanceKates  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:51:56pm

re: #833 looking closely

but, if you have 10 groups mutating in different ways, enough to actually change their genetic makeup so as to not be what they were before, how is it that they can magically come back together after each counting to 100,000?

Last time I checked, a duck wasn't able to successfully mate with a hourse.

To keep with your counting analogy, if, as they counted, their languages changed to where they are STILL counting, but now in different languages, due to generations of seperate living (as is how languages are formed), how it is that they could all come together and say '1 million!' ?

846 JHW  Wed, May 7, 2008 12:53:33pm

re: