Look at that picture, how the people are just laughing at him.

Amen.

Now I've got the lyrics "One is the loneliest number that you'll ever do..." stuck in my head.

Meet your maker in under 5 seconds. Does he have gun?

I wonder how long the 5 seconds guy stood out there. Hours?

Well, he's in good company at UC Berkley with all the 9-11 Troofers and global warming fearmongers there.

Oh, those wacky Creationists. Don't they know science and reason has already solved everything? They should go back to their holes!

/Creationist

At least he's not bitter or clinging.
And his sign is grammatically correct and neat and articulate, which is more than I can say for other people's signs.

Hardly surprising. There's lunacy, and to spare, at U.C. Berkley.

re: #6 Honorary Yooper

Well, he's in good company at UC Berkley with all the 9-11 Troofers and global warming fearmongers there.

Well then, I suppose I would be in good company with them too. :)

Altho I have to say it would be rather odd. ...... lol

Zombie, if you are reading this, know that I responded to your email. I hope you can find it in the big stack you got.

The story behind my presence on the U.C. campus adds another bizarre dimension to the scene. I had gotten a tip that the group “Students for Justice in Palestine” was going to set up a “checkpoint” near Sproul Plaza to force passing students to experience what life is purportedly like in the West Bank — as SJP’s way of marking the “Nakba,” the Arabic word for “catastrophe” that is used in Palestine to describe the founding of Israel. But when I showed up, no faux-checkpoints were to be found — only this table for the Muslim Students Association. I guess I either missed the action, or the whole event had been cancelled.

They wouldn't know what to do because none of them have ever been there.

(and I have manned check points)

Are those 5 seconds measured by man or by God?

It's also worth noting, he's not advocating for science or proving a theory. He's protesting against atheists.

He's making three statements here:

1. That he can offer proof in 5 seconds. I doubt that one.

2. That God made the heavens and the earth. No argument there.

3. That Jesus can provide restoration and healing to a soul. Again, no argument from me.

so two out of three IMO

On the postive side, I'm fairly sure he was screaming obscenities and smelled a lot better than the average Berkeley protestor

The story behind my presence on the U.C. campus adds another bizarre dimension to the scene. I had gotten a tip that the group “Students for Justice in Palestine” was going to set up a “checkpoint” near Sproul Plaza to force passing students to experience what life is purportedly like in the West Bank — as SJP’s way of marking the “Nakba,” the Arabic word for “catastrophe” that is used in Palestine to describe the founding of Israel. But when I showed up, no faux-checkpoints were to be found — only this table for the Muslim Students Association. I guess I either missed the action, or the whole event had been cancelled.

A good metaphor for the "catasprophe" suffered by the Palestinians.

Usually the 5 second argument is "you are here, therefore god made you". (or some variation of the first cause argument.)

Nutty Lone Christian Giving Speeches At University

Breaking: Dog Bites Man

Here it comes. Time to beat up on the zealot.
But....
If you disagree with him he's not going to behead you.

Activate your IFF, folks!

Land of the moonbats

re: #18 buzzsawmonkey

Mama! Glad to see you back! I was worried about you.

PS: No more dog poems, unless you ask for them.

Hi Buzz! I loved your dog poems! I've been busy starting to train my new pup, Cubbie - whom I officially adopted yesterday. Also I've been having a lot of trouble with my hands the last few days - my left hand is totally useless. ack - hard to type :(

How are you doing, my friend ?

where's the fossil record of the failed instances of genetic mutations along the way. must be some, no?

(that ought to kick start this thread. mu-wahahah!) :)

re: #15 mama winger

He's making three statements here:

1. That he can offer proof in 5 seconds. I doubt that one.

2. That God made the heavens and the earth. No argument there.

3. That Jesus can provide restoration and healing to a soul. Again, no argument from me.

so two out of three IMO

His top line request: "give me just five seconds" probably worked well to grab some attention.

"Frank Says" is actually on subject for once:

frank says:

The essence of Christianity is told us in the Garden of Eden history. The fruit that was forbidden was on the tree of knowledge. The subtext is, All the suffering you have is because you wanted to find out what was going on. You could be in the Garden of Eden if you had just kept your mouth shut and hadn't asked any questions. -- Playboy Interview, April 1993

re: #26 Pastorius

The essence of Christianity is told us in the Garden of Eden history. The fruit that was forbidden was on the tree of knowledge. The subtext is, All the suffering you have is because you wanted to find out what was going on. You could be in the Garden of Eden if you had just kept your mouth shut and hadn't asked any questions.

Way off target. But that's a whole nuther kettle of fish, eh ? :)

Five seconds. Impressive.

Is this really going to be another "Creationists are knuckledraggers" thread?

re: #27 mama winger

How are you Mama? Another day, another kick in the teeth.

We were told this was coming.

Oh well. God Bless you!

He's 0 for 3. In baseball we call that a strikeout.

re: #26 Pastorius

Wow, yes, that is definitely the very soul of Christianity.

Deep, very deep.

Sometimes I wonder how much separates some conservatives from liberals, because they seem to share they same snide comments and disregard for people of faith... I guess it's the guns, money, and government involvement.

re: #29 LanceKates

Is this really going to be another "Creationists are knuckledraggers" thread?

No worries. I have nothing to prove.

re: #33 mama winger

Oh, nor do I. It is just sad to see it coming from all sides.

re: #33 mama winger

Me either. I'm with you.

By the way, there is nothing essentially "Christian" about creationism. The Catholic Church, for example, has specifically renounced creationism (and intelligent design) and stated that Darwin's theory of evolution is not opposed to Christian faith.

re: #30 BulgarWheat

How are you Mama? Another day, another kick in the teeth.

We were told this was coming.

Oh well. God Bless you!

Hi Bulgar! I am hating my lupus lately - it is robbing me of the use of my hands. Damn that Fall ! :) hehe

re: #23 mama winger

Oh, mama.....I wish I could give you mine --and all my health, too.....

re: #29 LanceKates

Is this really going to be another "Creationists are knuckledraggers" thread?

dude that's why I threw out my post above re the fossil record), as some bait. let's see where it goes...

re: #36 Charles

By the way, there is nothing essentially "Christian" about creationism. The Catholic Church, for example, has specifically renounced creationism (and intelligent design) and stated that Darwin's theory of evolution is not opposed to Christian faith.

Good for them.

I'll believe as I like.

re: #32 Living4Him5534

You haven't seen snide comments, disregard, and condescension until you've seen the treatment atheists get from evangelists and fundies.

re: #37 mama winger

I hope you're feeling better soon! That sucks! I'll include you into the Wheat household prayers for you and your wonderful son tonight!

re: #38 Ma Sands

Oh, mama.....I wish I could give you mine --and all my health, too.....

{Ma}

I welcome the suffering. It keeps me humble and dependent.

#27 Mama Winger,

Yeah, I'm not saying I agree with Frank. I'm just saying he's on subject.

For the record, it doesn't matter to me whether a person believes in God or not. I'm with Dennis Prager; there are only two types of people, the decent and the indecent.

re: #41 FoolsMate

such a heavy burden to bear for not believing anything.

re: #42 BulgarWheat

I hope you're feeling better soon! That sucks! I'll include you into the Wheat household prayers for you and your wonderful son tonight!

Thank you so much - He and I do appreciate it.

re: #41 FoolsMate

You haven't seen snide comments, disregard, and condescension until you've seen the treatment atheists get from evangelists and fundies.

Wholly disagree.

re: #29 LanceKates

Only if you want it to be.

#32,
That's Frank Zappa's opinion, not mind.

re: #39 Vergeltung

God doesn't wear a Rolex. Just like time zones, he MAY be on an entirely different time zone. Just a thought....

6 Mississippi! 7 Mississippi!

People of faith should not be mocked & disrespected.
However noone should shove their faith into others faces.

Look, you can't blame the guy for trying!

And, somebody please tell me why he's a "crackpot"...

JAFLW

re: #44 Pastorius

#27 Mama Winger,

I'm with Dennis Prager; there are only two types of people, the decent and the indecent.

Yes.

My son, interestingly enough, is reading a book by Dennis Prager now on anti-semitism for a research paper on anti-semitism and the Lutheran Church. Should be a toe-tapper, as he goes to a Lutheran college/seminary.

STFU you big Ots or I will kill you all with my Science!

re: #43 mama winger

Yeah.....in some ways, I guess it might be easier than internal, too.....

re: #14 Killgore Trout

It's also worth noting, he's not advocating for science or proving a theory. He's protesting against atheists.

no. Actually, That's NOt worth noting...

:-D

re: #41 FoolsMate

You've obviously missed some of the earlier threads. It's cool. Not tossing any bombs today or previously.

I'm not going to change anyone's mind today and I understand that.

Have a good day!

re: #48 irish rose

Only if you want it to be.

And this is my fault... how?

Are you suggesting that by believing in Creationism, I'm somehow responsible for the inability of people who believe in evolution to insult, degrade and berate me?

It is like dealing with someone who is anti-smoking. They can't stand by and let you do as you wish, they HAVE to tell you why you're wrong and stupid and evil.

re: #41 FoolsMate

Yes, every conversation I had in the Marines where I was mocked for my faith I made sure to shed a tear for all the times I saw atheists getting browbeaten... oh wait...

And Charles, just because the Catholic Church does it, doesn't mean that it's A.) good B.) right or C.) in the Bible.

re: #59 BulgarWheat

Big freaking Ot.
Lay under this bus, NOW

lolololol

re: #55 BabbaZee

Babba! I've missed you today! Damn BIG BUSINESS has been stealing all my LGF time.

WE"RE BEING RIPPED OFF BY BIG BUSINESS!

Heil five!

re: #52 opnion

People of faith should not be mocked & disrespected.
However noone should shove their faith into others faces.

Can we chat about it though? I promise not to ring your bell.

#54 Mama Winger,

I've read Prager on the origin of anti-Semitism. Interestinly enough, that's one subject I do NOT agree with him on.

re: #64 BulgarWheat

Heil Five!
I'm being ripped off by big tiredness. LOL

re: #50 BulgarWheat

God doesn't wear a Rolex. Just like time zones, he MAY be on an entirely different time zone. Just a thought....

eh? you lost me on that one.... :)

re: #29 LanceKates

Is this really going to be another "Creationists are knuckledraggers" thread?

yeah. is it?

the more threads like these, the more i see many lizards hate me and hate my faith. never a good reason why though as i have never done them any harm.

i guess i'm just sick of those evangelical atheists (thanks to Crusader Rabbit for the term).

whatever. have at it. make fun of the people who believe in God and that He is so onmipotent that He could create everything you percieve and more in the blink of His eye. i'll check in later to see who has decided i'm an idiot/fool/whatever term you prefer for the day.

Just know one thing you nonbelievers... if i'm right, you'll be alone for eternity and i'll be in Heaven with God. if i'm wrong, then i've lived a good life and not harmed you in any way. Make your choice.

re: #57 buzzsawmonkey

Congratulations on the new pup; what kind is s/he? "Custom blend," or something identifiable?

A mixed bag of lovable floof. I am going to have a DNA rest run on him next week probably. Just to see what I'm up against :)

re: #60 LanceKates

And this is my fault... how?

Are you suggesting that by believing in Creationism, I'm somehow responsible for the inability of people who believe in evolution to insult, degrade and berate me?

It is like dealing with someone who is anti-smoking. They can't stand by and let you do as you wish, they HAVE to tell you why you're wrong and stupid and evil.

I didn't suggest anything.
Have a nice day.

re: #41 FoolsMate

Do the evangelists and fundies behead them?

Saying God created the heavens and the earth is not automatically creationsm; it is simple a quote.

re: #68 Vergeltung

carbon dating, freaking carbon dating.

just sayin'

re: #12 Ben Hur

They wouldn't know what to do because none of them have ever been there.

(and I have manned check points)

Will "faux rocket" be falling on the dorms, too?

That's ok with me if you don't believe in God. It's not my fault you're going to hell.

///sarc off

"Five seconds."

Got to admit I'm curious what the fellow has to say.

re: #67 BabbaZee

Tiredness sucks. Big OT Tiredness sucks largely!

re: #73 Roger

Go ten utterances!

re: #69 Kirly

leaving the eternity question out of it, I'm just annoyed that people who believe in Creation (not all christians do) are belittled by people who do not....

I don't walk up to people who believe in Evolution and say "What a stupid person you are. You're no different than A Troofer or the Terrorists."

And yet, I've had people say that of me. For believing that God Created.

Instead, I am told how stupid I am and how Creationists are always ranting against the good and innocent Evolutionists.

It reminds me of the liberals calling the conservatives racist for not supporting Obama.

re: #75 buzzsawmonkey

That is too cute for words.

Yeah. I think he was counting on that in order to FORCE me to adopt him. ha

Oh dear, I've got to miss my own thread! I'm leaving in a few minutes. Sorry if anyone has asked me a question -- I'll have to read the comments later!

This week on

"I know you are, but what am I..."

re: #71 irish rose

I didn't suggest anything.
Have a nice day.

No, you did.

You said that it was going to be that kind of thread only if I wanted it to be.

You are suggesting something. Are you going to explain it?

When I lived in Berkeley there used to be a self-appointed preacher on the campus there called Holy Hubert. It was a tossup whether he was full of the Holy Spirit or just plain crazy. He was there all day in Sproul Plaza yelling about sin and salvation. One day a guy on the roof of a nearby building yells down in a gruff voice, "Hubert! This is your God!" Without missing a beat Hubert yells back, "That's as close to heaven as you're ever gonna get, Sinner!"

re: #5 Killgore Trout

I wonder how long the 5 seconds guy stood out there. Hours?

All day.

re: #70 mama winger

A mixed bag of lovable floof. I am going to have a DNA rest run on him next week probably. Just to see what I'm up against :)

I'd guess there is Wheaten Terrier and Bearded Collie in him.
Would be very interested to hear that DNA test result.

Did I say he looks absolutely adorable and cuddlesom?

re: #80 buzzsawmonkey

And if they put a "Carbon Dating Game" on TV, I vow that I will not watch it.

I might watch Naked Carbon Dating.

re: #59 BulgarWheat

I am speaking in general, not necessarily about LGF.

re: #80 buzzsawmonkey

outstanding! heh and a double heh!

Creationists - being unintentionally funny since year zero.

re: #65 unrealizedviewpoint

Can we chat about it though? I promise not to ring your bell.

Of course. What bI am saying is that holding up mreligious signs generally makes one look like a crackpot.'
Pursuing a religious conversation on an unwilling person is palinly rude & demanded by no god.

Note: The guy can make a sign!

re: #89 yma o hyd

I'd guess there is Wheaten Terrier and Bearded Collie in him.
Would be very interested to hear that DNA test result.

Did I say he looks absolutely adorable and cuddlesom?

WOW - That's exactluy what I thought too - Wheaten Terrier mix!

re: #36 Charles

By the way, there is nothing essentially "Christian" about creationism. The Catholic Church, for example, has specifically renounced creationism (and intelligent design) and stated that Darwin's theory of evolution is not opposed to Christian faith.

Exactly, Charles. That's one of the reasons this whole "debate" is nuts.

Folks, only one side of this has ever tried making the teaching of the other illegal. And failing that, they ask for "equal time". It smacks of liberalism if you ask me. How different is asking for equal time for this from the so-called fairness doctrine? How different is it from the politicians and zealots who make anything contradicting global warming/climate change illegal?

re: #91 FoolsMate

Ok, fair enough.

re: #85 BabbaZee

This week on

"I know you are, but what am I..."

Hey Babba!

re: #87 Phocid

When I lived in Berkeley there used to be a self-appointed preacher on the campus there called Holy Hubert. It was a tossup whether he was full of the Holy Spirit or just plain crazy. He was there all day in Sproul Plaza yelling about sin and salvation. One day a guy on the roof of a nearby building yells down in a gruff voice, "Hubert! This is your God!" Without missing a beat Hubert yells back, "That's as close to heaven as you're ever gonna get, Sinner!"

my scale for folks (town cryers) like that are to weigh who they've saved against who they've driven farther away from the faith. They results are always negative...it doesn't work.

re: #86 LanceKates

I think you're spoiling for a fight, big time.
I'm not interested.

re: #6 Honorary Yooper

Well, he's in good company at UC Berkley with all the 9-11 Troofers and global warming fearmongers there.

Great point!

Like I said at the bottom of the report,

There are many aspects of the left-wing bias in Berkeley’s liberal arts departments that merit criticism — but insisting that the school’s world-class science departments abandon their fundamental principles is the wrong way to confront the problem.

I don't mind their Global Warming hysteria because it's inspiring the scientists at Lawrence Berkeley Lab to develop alternative energy sources that will wean us off of Saudi Oil. A good side effect of a demented popular delusion!

re: #95 Roger

Note: The guy can make a sign!

re: #99 mama winger

Hey!

re: #85 BabbaZee

This week on

"I know you are, but what am I..."

LOL!

re: #88 zombie

All day.

I'm fairly certain he had no other appointments LOL

re: #11 medaura18586

Zombie, if you are reading this, know that I responded to your email. I hope you can find it in the big stack you got.

I got it! Expect a reply within a month at the most! (Only 1,500 emails in line ahead of you!)

re: #104 BabbaZee

Hey!

I am hand impaired. How are you ?

re: #97 Honorary Yooper

It smacks of liberalism if you ask me. How different is asking for equal time for this from the so-called fairness doctrine?

Exactly, that's why Ben Stein is such an unlikely spokesman. Socialism has no place in the free market of ideas.

re: #101 irish rose

I think you're spoiling for a fight, big time.
I'm not interested.

Nope. Just asking what you meant.

What was it you meant?

re: #12 Ben Hur

(and I have manned check points)

You sexist pig! What about the female soldiers? Do they woman checkpoints? You should have said that you personed checkpoints.

/feminist moonbat

re: #82 LanceKates

leaving the eternity question out of it, I'm just annoyed that people who believe in Creation (not all christians do) are belittled by people who do not....

I don't walk up to people who believe in Evolution and say "What a stupid person you are. You're no different than A Troofer or the Terrorists."

And yet, I've had people say that of me. For believing that God Created.

Instead, I am told how stupid I am and how Creationists are always ranting against the good and innocent Evolutionists.

It reminds me of the liberals calling the conservatives racist for not supporting Obama.

I haven't seen one person call creationists "stupid" in this thread. It would be nice if the discussion could take place without thin-skinned exaggeration.

re: #74 BulgarWheat

carbon dating, freaking carbon dating.
just sayin'

oh, heh. No, I'm not a creationist. I just find the current discussion about ID/Evolution to parrallel the discussion re Gorebull Wormening; that the "discussion is over" and that the "science is settled" when, clearly, it is not.

one of the mjor flaws of Darwinism is it's inability to explain the infintessimal odds of developing complex organs (a bee's eye, etc) by random chance mutation. further, as I asked above, where is the fossil record of the failed mutations, and the specimems/species that died out due to faield mutations. why is there only a progressive fossil record. I've simplified it here for the sake of brevity and space, but I think you know what I mean. :)

Creationist: I can prove that God created the heavens and the earth in five seconds.

Me: Fine. On your mark, get set, go.

Creationist: Wow! Check out that chick's rack.

Me: Holy Christ!

Creationist: There you go.

re: #109 Killgore Trout

Socialism has no place in the free market of ideas.

Huh ? that doesn't make sense.

How is it a 'free market of ideas' if something can't be discussed?

re: #72 jamsler

Do the evangelists and fundies behead them?

In the good ole days.

re: #96 mama winger

WOW - That's exactluy what I thought too - Wheaten Terrier mix!

GMTA!

re: #108 mama winger

I am hand impaired. How are you ?

lololololol
It is easier to list what it not impaired
and I plan on working on that
commencing now

LOL

SMOKE!

re: #112 Charles

I haven't seen one person call creationists "stupid" in this thread. It would be nice if the discussion could take place without thin-skinned exaggeration.

You did read the Ben Stein thread, so I know that you are aware of what I am talking about.

But, if you want to limit it to this thread, there is this comment:

re: #6 Honorary Yooper

Well, he's in good company at UC Berkley with all the 9-11 Troofers and global warming fearmongers there.

Offense at being compared to Troofers is a thin-skinned exaggeration? (Keeping in mind that we've also, in the Lizard Lounge, been compared to islamic terrorists.)

What a ridiculous comment on that sign. Scientists--cosmologists and physicists in particular--think about where everything came from all the time, as this guy would know if he bothered to learn anything about science. They have several hypotheses that they are working on.

I might respond, "It's easy to be a believer if you don't think about where God came from." Of course, I would then be told that God has always existed, that God didn't "come from" anything. And if I asked for an explanation, I wouldn't get one. "It's about faith and belief," I would be told. But scientists don't get this out when it comes to explaining where the universe came from, nor do they want it. They're curious and will keep working the problem.

Even so, thousands of scientists still believe in God, and will continue to believe even if physicists demonstrate how "something" can come out of "nothing" naturally and spontaneously. Because scientists still would not have demonstrated whether or not God exists. That's a task that's beyond the scope of science.

re: #80 buzzsawmonkey

Look, I may have to deal with the "carbon credit" BS, but I bloody well draw the line at carbon dating.

And if they put a "Carbon Dating Game" on TV, I vow that I will not watch it.

Diamonds are a girl's best friend?

re: #24 Vergeltung

where's the fossil record of the failed instances of genetic mutations along the way. must be some, no?

Every species is a "transitional" species.

Including us.

There is no "end point," no "perfect" animal that stops evolving.

Thus every fossil ever found fits your requirements.

re: #107 zombie

I got it! Expect a reply within a month at the most! (Only 1,500 emails in line ahead of you!)

Zombie? You may want to set up some email filters to sort all that out. Have multiple named inboxes with people filling into them the way you prefer. I usually use the original inbox as the junk one.

re: #111 Alouette

You sexist pig! What about the female soldiers? Do they woman checkpoints? You should have said that you personed checkpoints.

/feminist moonbat

No, they decorate checkpoints, and frankly, doilies are just a little impractical on lift gates.

/Ducks and dives for cover.

re: #36 Charles

By the way, there is nothing essentially "Christian" about creationism. The Catholic Church, for example, has specifically renounced creationism (and intelligent design) and stated that Darwin's theory of evolution is not opposed to Christian faith.

Indeed.

Many (if not most) other religions have their own form of Creationism.

Also, there is absolutely NO contradiction between the theory of evolution (in general, see below) and the idea of a "Creator" that started the ball rolling, so to speak.

To repeat, the theory of evolution says, in a nutshell, that environmental pressures can cause heritable changes in POPULATIONS. It says nothing specifically about the origin of man, which is the hangup that causes most angst between nominal creationists and evolutionists.

Popcorn, popcorn....

re: #113 Vergeltung

one of the mjor flaws of Darwinism is it's inability to explain the infintessimal odds of developing complex organs (a bee's eye, etc) by random chance mutation

Evolution is not random. You guys need to update your talking points. They are too easily debunked.

re: #113 Vergeltung

Thanks. That's a nice summation and I actually respect where you come from.

All good with me.

I got my path, you've got yours.

All's well that ends well.

re: #112 Charles

I haven't seen one person call creationists "stupid" in this thread. It would be nice if the discussion could take place without thin-skinned exaggeration.

But creationists were put on the same level as 9-11 troofers.

re: #127 Killgore Trout

Gets embarrassing doesn't it:-)

re: #119 LanceKates

Offense at being compared to Troofers is a thin-skinned exaggeration? (Keeping in mind that we've also, in the Lizard Lounge, been compared to islamic terrorists.)

So, to be clear, you're asking for special hands-off treatment?

Good luck with that approach at LGF.

Not too long ago, many scientific minds believed the Earth was flat. Science changes all the time, so I think it's too soon to say that evolution is right and creationism is wrong.

re: #115 mama winger

Huh ? that doesn't make sense.

How is it a 'free market of ideas' if something can't be discussed?

The reason why ID isn't discussed seriously in scientific circles is that there is no evidence for it. If you bring supernatural explanations into scientific inquiry, then it ceases to be scientific inquiry.

re: #122 zombie

Every species is a "transitional" species.

Including us.

There is no "end point," no "perfect" animal that stops evolving.

Thus every fossil ever found fits your requirements.

The overwhelming majority of organisms don't leave a fossil record, so lack of a particular one doesn't really constitute proof or disproof of anything.

eg: Just because nobody can show you the grave of my great-great-great-great-grandfather, doesn't mean I don't have one.

OK, I read up through comment #24. Now I'm late!

Please keep the fisticuffs to a reasonable level.

Gotta run.

re: #109 Killgore Trout

Exactly, that's why Ben Stein is such an unlikely spokesman. Socialism has no place in the free market of ideas.

it's not a free market in education. in modern liberal-arts education in the US, it's indocrination, not education. all sides are not presented. usually, only one side is presented by a moonbat professor/teacher.

re: #129 mama winger

And stupid & much more, was in more than one, more than two, etc., other threads on the subject..... :)

re: #133 Honorary Yooper

The reason why ID isn't discussed seriously in scientific circles is that there is no evidence for it. If you bring supernatural explanations into scientific inquiry, then it ceases to be scientific inquiry.

I understand that point. I do - I may not agree with it but I understand it. What I was referring to was Killgore's statement that Socialism has no place in the free market of ideas.

re: #131 Charles

So, to be clear, you're asking for special hands-off treatment?

Good luck with that approach at LGF.

I'm not asking for anything. Just clarifying your statement about insults directed at Creationists existing, even within this thread.

I don't care if they rip on creationists, but it ought to be fair game to point out and address such insults.

Especially when others are making a strong point about the creationists (calling them 'fundies') being the degrading ones.

re: #113 Vergeltung

oh, heh. No, I'm not a creationist. I just find the current discussion about ID/Evolution to parrallel the discussion re Gorebull Wormening; that the "discussion is over" and that the "science is settled" when, clearly, it is not.

one of the mjor flaws of Darwinism is it's inability to explain the infintessimal odds of developing complex organs (a bee's eye, etc) by random chance mutation. further, as I asked above, where is the fossil record of the failed mutations, and the specimems/species that died out due to faield mutations. why is there only a progressive fossil record. I've simplified it here for the sake of brevity and space, but I think you know what I mean. :)

As far as the fossil record goes, I would venture it comes down to the law of averages. The stable species would be more numerous while the failed mutations would have significantly smaller chance of being present. Now add to this the percentage of the creatures which actually became fossilized and it lowers the likelihood of finding a so called failed mutation to begin with. On the flip side, given the rarity of some fossil species, how can we be sure they weren't failed and we are making false assumptions of their viability.

re: #112 Charles

I haven't seen one person call creationists "stupid" in this thread. It would be nice if the discussion could take place without thin-skinned exaggeration.

Actually, the whole antagonist-protagonist thing is quite silly> I'm an evangelical. God created. He may have used evolution as a template. No biggy. I see No reason why God couldn't have put things into motion in a gradual "simmering' fashion. Does that invalidate Genesis. Nope. If God would have told Moses that he came from an evolving mass of DNA ribbon, his response would've been a "Whatchu talkin' bout Willis?" Kinda response. Knowledge is revealed as we progress. as we stretch ourselves out of our zone of comfort. The two are NOT mutually exclusive. It gets tedious listening to the banter.

Stupids!
I will keeeeeeeeeeel you all
with my White Creationist Theological Darkwinian Golemic Science!

I'm invoking my Dr. Pepper rule.

BBIAB.

re: #115 mama winger

How is it a 'free market of ideas' if something can't be discussed?

To follow the analogy; Creation science is a failed business. It went bankrupt generations ago. Why should it be propped up by subsidies and allowed to operate like a Fortune 500 company? They can start from scratch anytime (like they tried with ID) and compete on a level playing field. Despite what Stein tells us, the playing field is level and fair. Ideas should be allowed to succeed or fail in a free market. Failed ideas should be discarded, it does us no good to keep them around.

re: #131 Charles

So, to be clear, you're asking for special hands-off treatment?

Good luck with that approach at LGF.

I didn't read it that way, Charles. I think he's asking for mere fairness.

Everybody deserves skepticism; comparisons to low-lifes are a bit harder to take.

re: #100 paxnhymn

my scale for folks (town cryers) like that are to weigh who they've saved against who they've driven farther away from the faith. They results are always negative...it doesn't work.

I credit the inimitable "Brother Jed" Smock, as well as the hatemonger Jack Chick, with turning me off to the Good News until I was in my mid-30s. Confrontational evangelism seems to only reach the people who themselves want to be noisy, self-righteous bullies in the name of faith.

If you'd rather complain about insults than contribute to the discussion, that's your choice.

re: #130 Roger

I think it's slowly getting better, but it is frustrating.

re: #149 Charles

If you'd rather complain about insults than contribute to the discussion, that's your choice.

What kind of contribution on a thread about a Creationist protestor is there to be made?

re: #132 Milk Toast Intolerant

Not too long ago, many scientific minds believed the Earth was flat. Science changes all the time, so I think it's too soon to say that evolution is right and creationism is wrong.

Shot & A goal! One can look at the same facts & data and draw either conclusion.
It is not unreasonable to believe in Darwinism & still have a faith in a Supreme Being or at least hold out the possibility.

re: #148 buzzsawmonkey

Creationism? Right now I'm thinking about procreationism.

/mind in the gutter, as usual.

Well heck. This whole time I thought my wife was chastising me for procrastination.

re: #127 Killgore Trout

Debunk me you savage beast!

heh!

re: #145 Killgore Trout

I must have misunderstood your original comment. I thought you were referring to socialism when you said socialism had no place in the free market of ideas.

Are you referring to creationism as socialism ? I'm all mixed up now. Not an unusual occurence :)

It seems to me Comment #6 was a comment aimed at the idiocy of the guy with the sign (claiming he could prove God's existence in five seconds,when Spinoza, St. Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, etc all used more time and didn't accomplish much) not at Christians in general.

re: #145 Killgore Trout

It depends on the meaning of the word "failed"......and, likewise, who uses it. :)

re: #148 buzzsawmonkey

Creationism? Right now I'm thinking about procreationism.

/mind in the gutter, as usual.

I thought you were neutered.

Me, I'd rather mock than have this pointless "discussion" again or speak Whinese.

Scientists can create and destroy whole planets!
see : Pluto

/I'm only here as a referee

LOL

Obama is Prolier than Thou, Knuckledraggers!

re: #154 BulgarWheat

Debunk me you savage beast!

That would rotate nicely IMO

I think it's great that the guy with the sign had the time and the interest to express himself at Berzerkely. I don't understand what people are getting so upset about.

re: #156 Pastorius

It seems to me Comment #6 was a comment aimed at the idiocy of the guy with the sign (claiming he could prove God's existence in five seconds,when Spinoza, St. Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, etc all used more time and didn't accomplish much) not at Christians in general.

That was very much my point.

If your faith is real...wear the name calling as a badge of honor.

I think this guy with the sign is doing the best he can. Good intentions and all that. And by George, the Berkeley market does seem to respect a person waving a sign; he might have better luck if he dressed up in a bunny suit or painted himself silver, though.

I tend to agree with Kierkegaard, who said something to the effect that the moment religion begins to lean on or against science, it sets itself up for embarrassment. Faith is always about what lies on the other side of science.

re: #161 BabbaZee

geez. I hope not. I had hoped that would have gone unnoticed.

heh

re: #161 BabbaZee

Agreed.

re: #122 zombie

Every species is a "transitional" species.
Including us.
There is no "end point," no "perfect" animal that stops evolving.
Thus every fossil ever found fits your requirements.

totally scooting around the point. take opposing digits for example, a key evolutionary factor in human development. it justy appears out of nowhere. this is all hard to discuss in a short post, think-as-you-type format, but I think you know where I am going with it.

simply stated, where are the fossils of the fish with threee dorsal fins, the human anscestor with mutations that were failures, that did not help adaptation to environments? it's a huge simplification, but, that's all I can do in this format.

just read about the 747 postulation; that there's not much more chance of a hurricane blasting through an airplane junkyard and creating a 747, as there is of life being created and perfected from random particles and protons, through random chance mutations.

re: #164 storagemanager

Or rather, let it roll off as water does on a duck's back......keeping the goal in mind..... :)

re: #113 Vergeltung

one of the mjor flaws of Darwinism is it's inability to explain the infintessimal odds of developing complex organs (a bee's eye, etc) by random chance mutation.

The theory of evolution actually explains things like that quite well.

Its not one random chance mutation that causes the bee's eye, but rather a series of thousands of them over tens of thousands of years, coupled with environmental pressure to ensure that the "good" mutations stick around.

Its like saying no human is smart enough to invent a modern PC, therefore they must have been placed on the Earth by supernatural beings.

The first part is true. . .the PC was invented by hundreds or thousands of people, with tens to hundreds of thousands of man-hours of work, representing decades of cumulative design experience. Its the second part that's untrue.

re: #126 WriterMom

Popcorn, popcorn....

I've been away for a while, come back, saw this thread, and thought: oh my. And your comment. Oh yeah. [I would rather discuss the finer points of single-malt scotch].

re: #162 WriterMom

I think it's great that the guy with the sign had the time and the interest to express himself at Berzerkely. I don't understand what people are getting so upset about.

Because, he looks like a loon & actually does religion a disservice.

re: #1 SemperHunden

Look at that picture, how the people are just laughing at him.

They said the same thing about Moses.

re: #162 WriterMom

I think it's great that the guy with the sign had the time and the interest to express himself at Berzerkely. I don't understand what people are getting so upset about.

Yep. We all get to make our voices heard. That's why they call it America. :)

OT question:

Why do some web sites 'trap' you in their site, and not let you click back to get out of it? I find that so frustrating.

re: #174 Lively

They said the same thing about Moses.

I mean Noah....LOL!

re: #155 mama winger
Science is a free market system. Anyone can play, if you have proof and solid science your idea will succeed. If you fail to prove you idea it will fail. Creationism as science failed long ago, what Ben is asking for is interference in the free market system to allow a failed (bankrupt) idea to be presented on equal footing with a succeeding (prosperous) idea. It doesn't make sense to alter the market place in this way.

re: #37 mama winger

I had no idea you have lupus. I do, too, although I'm pretty much asymptomatic as long as I take my meds. Sure hope you're feeling better soon!

One describes the physical in the terms of the secular.
One describes the spiritual in the terms of the biblical.

SO?

re: #127 Killgore Trout

Evolution is not random. You guys need to update your talking points. They are too easily debunked.

how does the first change happen? the first dingo with longer ears for the desert? the first giraffe with a longer neck for higher feeding? how and when does that first change occur?

and, there is no reason to insult me referring to "you guys" and talking points. I am trying to engage in an intelligent discussion with you guys. if that's not possible, I won't bother. :)

re: #5 Killgore Trout

I wonder how long the 5 seconds guy stood out there. Hours?

I'm arriving late but....this is funny.

re: #172 Golem Akbar

[I would rather discuss the finer points of single-malt scotch].

Oh me too! What's your favorite?

re: #177 Lively

I mean Noah....LOL!

one 'a those bearded guys , hunh?!

:-D

re: #173 opnion

You're upset because he looks weird? How does he hamper "religion"...he's just speaking for himself?

re: #173 opnion

Because, he looks like a loon & actually does religion a disservice.

Hey, at least he isn't screaming out imagined sexual scenarios to 'condemn' the students with like some street performer types are want to do.

I look weird. Don't be upset.

re: #128 BulgarWheat

Thanks. That's a nice summation and I actually respect where you come from.
All good with me.
I got my path, you've got yours.
All's well that ends well.

thanks dude. I am falling behind on the thread quickly. that's what happens when you write long posts I guess! ;)

re: #176 WriterMom

OT question:

Why do some web sites 'trap' you in their site, and not let you click back to get out of it? I find that so frustrating.

In some cases, its a kind of adware which introduces a hidden page between the first page and what you were reading. When you click back, it takes you back once to the hidden page which forwards you to what you just read again.

re: #180 doppelganglander

I had no idea you have lupus. I do, too, although I'm pretty much asymptomatic as long as I take my meds. Sure hope you're feeling better soon!

Oh dear! another Lupoid !?

I'm sorry - but glad you seem to have it under control. I wish you continued health and wellness.

re: #140 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

As far as the fossil record goes, I would venture it comes down to the law of averages. The stable species would be more numerous while the failed mutations would have significantly smaller chance of being present. Now add to this the percentage of the creatures which actually became fossilized and it lowers the likelihood of finding a so called failed mutation to begin with. On the flip side, given the rarity of some fossil species, how can we be sure they weren't failed and we are making false assumptions of their viability.

Most mutations won't create a fossil record anyway.

Where is the fossil record of albino dinosaurs for example?

Should we presume that they didn't exist because we have no record of them (even though there are plenty of modern albino birds, reptiles, and mammals)?

re: #174 Lively

They said the same thing about Moses.

what

Those are great pictures Zombie, thanks.

Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water....

It's been very sad to see LGF coming down on the side of those who would crush the discussion about ID in college classrooms (or anywhere else.)

So much for standing up for academic freedom. I never would've dreamed to see this here.

At least he is not wearing a bomb...Islam is the enemy.

re: #148 buzzsawmonkey

Creationism? Right now I'm thinking about procreationism.

/mind in the gutter, as usual.

Hardly in the gutter. Procreation is the imperative of all life. Everything that we do towards that aim should be considered good, even supporting the efforts of others to do that. I'm not entirely sure, but I think I just came up with a justification for pr0n that inspires lascivious thought.

Also, getting as much practice at it as we can must then be considered a good thing.

re: #196 Mo86

It's been very sad to see LGF coming down on the side of those who would crush the discussion about ID in college classrooms (or anywhere else.)

So much for standing up for academic freedom. I never would've dreamed to see this here.

I am entirely for teaching ID if that helps you any

re: #165 Cognito

I think this guy with the sign is doing the best he can. Good intentions and all that. And by George, the Berkeley market does seem to respect a person waving a sign; he might have better luck if he dressed up in a bunny suit or painted himself silver, though.

I tend to agree with Kierkegaard, who said something to the effect that the moment religion begins to lean on or against science, it sets itself up for embarrassment. Faith is always about what lies on the other side of science.

Yep - precisely so!
Pity then, that so many atheists rely on the latest scientific discoveries to proclaim that God doesn't exist, because they haven't found/measured/observed him in their laboratories ...

re: #140 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

excellent point. well taken..

I wish they would restrict evolution to science and leave it out of Constitutional law.

re: #172 Golem Akbar

I would rather discuss how totally thrilled I am that the annual Nakba Seetheopolooza has started.

Charles-I don't know if you saw this article, but it's kind of whack.

Israel's Original Sin

re: #193 SpaceJesus

what

I meant Noah.

/I can't believe I typed Moses....sorry all. Including Moses if he reads English.

I just joined in here, so if i get this right, If I am one of those cynics who think that the chance that all you and i see and experience, the vast wonderful universe et al, all came into existence and spread, flourished and grew simply by random chance over who-cares-how-many years, are so close to zero as to be statistically indescribable, that makes me a creationist?

They laughed at Moses too

re: #203 WriterMom

I would rather discuss how totally thrilled I am that the annual Nakba Seetheopolooza has started.

Charles-I don't know if you saw this article, but it's kind of whack.

Israel's Original Sin

I know what that means now!

Thank you....

re: #182 Vergeltung

how does the first change happen? the first dingo with longer ears for the desert? the first giraffe with a longer neck for higher feeding? how and when does that first change occur?

and, there is no reason to insult me referring to "you guys" and talking points. I am trying to engage in an intelligent discussion with you guys. if that's not possible, I won't bother. :)

how could you be old enough to surf the web and not know the answer to this? lemme guess, you were schooled at home?

re: #196 Mo86

It's been very sad to see LGF coming down on the side of those who would crush the discussion about ID in college classrooms (or anywhere else.)

So much for standing up for academic freedom. I never would've dreamed to see this here.

Huh? There very much is a free-market in ideas. However, one should not prop up ideas that have failed in that marketplace. It smacks of liberalism, and I find it very troubling that some here espouse socialism in the realm of ideas when an idea they like fails.

re: #193 SpaceJesus

What is the signification of your nic, if I may ask? :)

..... and, operative funk machine..... --I've a question for you, if you would be so kind as to appear..... :)

re: #178 buzzsawmonkey

The finest point of any single-malt Scotch is proximity.

I'll drink to that.

re: #199 BabbaZee

I am entirely for teaching ID if that helps you any

Me too.

re: #26 Pastorius

Wrong. The fruit was from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. There is truly a world of difference here. Knowledge is certainly not discouraged. However, exploring all the different ways to commit evil... that is!

re: #206 BabbaZee

They laughed at Moses too

and they laughed at hitler at first too. your point?

re: #196 Mo86

It's been very sad to see LGF coming down on the side of those who would crush the discussion about ID in college classrooms (or anywhere else.)

So much for standing up for academic freedom. I never would've dreamed to see this here.

Don't be ridiculous. No one is on the side of crushing free speech here.

And the claims made by Ben Stein's movie about suppression of ID believers are almost entirely made up.

On second thought, I'll call it NakbaPolooza.

I like that better.

re: #102 zombie

I don't mind their Global Warming hysteria because it's inspiring the scientists at Lawrence Berkeley Lab to develop alternative energy sources that will wean us off of Saudi Oil. A good side effect of a demented popular delusion!

Actually I mind it. All of this carbon cap and trade BS has just got a bill in my state sent to the Governor for signature that will increase my electricity rates by at least 10 cents per KWH. Granted, not a huge increase, but it is just the beginning.

I am hoping Gov. Rell can see through the BS and veto the bill. My electric rate is high enough as it is.

re: #175 mama winger

Yep. We all get to make our voices heard. That's why they call it America. :)

Only in America could somebody nic/named 'SpaceJesus' ding you down.

re: #214 SpaceJesus

and they laughed at hitler at first too. your point?

I have to have a point?

Lighten up

re: #182 Vergeltung

how does the first change happen? the first dingo with longer ears for the desert? the first giraffe with a longer neck for higher feeding? how and when does that first change occur?

Since nobody was standing there observing the phenomenon you mention, you can't have a conclusive answer, but the way it works is as follows:

In any population of dingoes, some of them are going to have longer ears, some shorter. The ones with the longer ears will hear slightly better, translating into a small survival and reproductive advantage. Over many many generations those advantages will ensure that the population of dingoes all have longer ears than their predecessors.

Even in the population of long-eared dingoes, there will still be some with longer and some with smaller ears.

But the selective pressure of having better hearing will, over time, "perfect" the ears of the dingo population to their environment, within genetic limitations.

re: #116 FoolsMate

Some hundreds of years ago. I remember it like it was yesteryear.

What this guy is doing, standing in Berkley with a sign like that, subject to constant ridicule is a labor of love for him. It takes more cajones than I have. I may or may not agree with him but this I know:

He isn't the enemy.

Only one group of zealots today will behead you for not subscribing to their zany beliefs. It's them I'm worried about.

Waste your ammo on sitting ducks if you want, I'm keeping my gunsights on the enemy.

re: #170 buzzsawmonkey

neutralized?

Isn't that like taking an alka-seltzer?

re: #214 SpaceJesus

Yo-did you OD on senstivity pills today?

What's with the Itlerhay reference?

re: #215 Charles

DINGO!

re: #219 BabbaZee

JEWLEPATHY!

re: #196 Mo86

It's been very sad to see LGF coming down on the side of those who would crush the discussion about ID in college classrooms (or anywhere else.)

So much for standing up for academic freedom. I never would've dreamed to see this here.

as I have (wearily) said time and time again...I see NO evidence of the above on LGF...Oh, we have the ocassional emo on both sides who gets their feelings hurt or throws a slur, but all in all there have been a healthy (and quite respectful) airing of ideas>

I wonder, as an evangelical and a proponent of ID, if we have become too thin skinned, or silly enough to think our God is not big enough to overcome obstacles without our help....

re: #218 ec marm

Only in America could somebody nic/named 'SpaceJesus' ding you down.

Hahahahaha ! :)

Wow... here we go again.

Has this site been taken over by Jerry Springer? Every few days now there seems to be a topic that's thrown up just to instigate arguments and hard feelings...

Man,these threads move fast!

re: #207 loppyd

I know what that means now!

Thank you....

/And the world is flat!

re: #215 Charles

And the claims made by Ben Stein's movie about suppression of ID believers are almost entirely made up.

How do you know it? What makes you say it?
I'd like to read whatever you have on it.

re: #183 Lively

Update: zombie says he was there all day

re: #226 WriterMom

I mean....... really.

re: #186 WriterMom

You're upset because he looks weird? How does he hamper "religion"...he's just speaking for himself?

Ok, so if the guy was holding a sign that said something like, oh I don't know "behead those who insult Islam", we would all think it was weird.
I don't think religion is appropriate for a protest type sign. Also could anybody in pocession of their faculties think that this would fly at Berkley?

re: #206 BabbaZee

And Elisha..

/Elijah? Enoch? How far are you both from Jerusalem?

re: #218 ec marm

Only in America could somebody nic/named 'SpaceJesus' ding you down.

Oh my gosh! He really did down-ding me for celebrating America!

I gotta say - that's a first LOL

re: #171 looking closely

Actually statistics, and simple observations show that unneeded genetic mutations are weeded out, not prolonged. After all, according to natural selection, who wants to mate with a cripple? (Disclaimer... not a moral implication, just a logical application of natural selection which ends up disproving itself.)

re: #229 brothertrav

Dude, with all due respect, this is Charles' blog. Whatever he wants to post-he posts.

re: #231 Golem Akbar

/And the world is flat!

who said anything to the contrary?

:~)

re: #132 Milk Toast Intolerant

Science does have a history of establishing flawed paradigms and of shouting down scientific dissenters. It also has a history of destroying and replacing such paradigms in the face of evidence, although sometimes that process can take years or decades or longer. It's possible you are correct, but what are the chances? The theory of evolution, since Darwin, is not only still standing after 150 years, but the supporting evidence continues to grow stronger, and there are no credible scientific challenges to it at this time.

re: #192 looking closely

Most mutations won't create a fossil record anyway.

Where is the fossil record of albino dinosaurs for example?

Should we presume that they didn't exist because we have no record of them (even though there are plenty of modern albino birds, reptiles, and mammals)?

Exactly.

Personally, I dont see the point of the debate here.

The theory of evolution is just that, a theory on how species have adapted over time. Intelligent Design is a theory that an outside force created life and set it on its course. I dont see why people think the two have to be mutually exclusive. I believe in God and that he created the universe according to his plan. To fulfill his plan, God created life and uses evolution as a mechanism to enact his will.

re: #236 Roger

And Elisha..

/Elijah? Enoch? How far are you both from Jerusalem?

And.....well, pretty much everyone.

I took my meds. Can I participate?

re: #230 jamsler

Man,these threads move fast!

It's a slow news day, maybe, you heathen.

re: #235 opnion

. Also could anybody in pocession of their faculties think that this would fly at Berkley?

That's what makes it glorious. :)

I’ve posted my own 2 cents regarding this debate on other websites, and having learned my lesson* have chosen to provide this link, as it pretty much says it nicely:

If you enjoy a good laugh, you’ll love this:

........and these are just downright scary:
[Link: www.youtube.com...]

*The reactions I’d received pretty much implied that I must be a left-leaning advocate of teaching young children about sex education and homosexual marriages while leading a lawless amoral lifestyle.
No, I’m not joking.

re: #244 right wing zephyr

I took my meds. Can I participate?

No. Only people OFF their meds can post.

re: #217 JohnnyReb
Sorry Zom, but i gotta go with Johnnyreb on that one.
I just want to be left alone.
I just want to be left alone so bad i'm ready to climb the nearest belltower and scream i just want to be left alone at the top of my lungs. With a megaphone.

They used to call people who wanted to tell you what to do busybodies. Now we call them politicians.
And that goes for all of the cankerous lot, too.

re: #244 right wing zephyr

I think it's time to whip out the Shakespearean Insultomatic again

There's so much right about that picture it's hard to know where to begin.
He's a guy with an opinion on a college campus.
No one is stopping him from speaking.
From the looks of it, no one is threatening him.
No ugliness.
He's not bothering anyone, just getting his message out.
No college administrator is hustling him off campus because of a "speech code".
This is exactly what colleges should be doing. The vaunted "marketplace of ideas". Some ideas are dumb, some are sublime. Quite a lot in between. But it's a free exchange of opinions.

God Bless Freedom Of Speech!

re: #232 BabbaZee

re: #215 Charles

How do you know it? What makes you say it?
I'd like to read whatever you have on it.

I know because I saw the movie, then read many statements from people whose opinions were either 1) distorted, or 2) completely misrepresented.

And the claims about suppression are very well debunked, with facts, names, and dates, at this site:

[Link: www.expelledexposed.com...]

It's a dishonest film. And I'm saying this as a (former) fan of Ben Stein.

re: #205 sojerofgod

I just joined in here, so if i get this right, If I am one of those cynics who think that the chance that all you and i see and experience, the vast wonderful universe et al, all came into existence and spread, flourished and grew simply by random chance over who-cares-how-many years, are so close to zero as to be statistically indescribable, that makes me a creationist?

No, it makes you somebody looking at data & drawing a rational conclusion.

re: #235 opnion

First of all, there is a big difference between those messages. There is nothing violent in this guy's sign. Secondly, who cares if the message flies or not. This guy got some paper a big black marker and has the time and the interest in hanging out on campus. What's the big deal?

re: #208 SpaceJesus

how could you be old enough to surf the web and not know the answer to this? lemme guess, you were schooled at home?

yes, that certainly is the summa of all education, "surfing the web". should I cite wikipedia perhaps? your insults hardly add to the discussion. thanks for the feedback.

re: #229 brothertrav

Wow... here we go again.

Has this site been taken over by Jerry Springer? Every few days now there seems to be a topic that's thrown up just to instigate arguments and hard feelings...

Only if you want them to.

Civility is a choice.

re: #250 BabbaZee

So true thou vile swine! Out of my sight! Thou dost infect my eyes.

re: #182 Vergeltung

how does the first change happen? the first dingo with longer ears for the desert? the first giraffe with a longer neck for higher feeding? how and when does that first change occur?

The answers are very easy to learn. You should read up on what evolutionary biologists think, not what creationists tell you about what biologists think. It's a strawman argument. I won't provide links anymore because it doesn't seem to help any.

re: #215 Charles

Sorry, untrue. I've been involved in the trying to get ID discussions allowed in classrooms for Ohio curriculum... simply to discuss as an alternative theory, alongside Darwinism. And you would have thought we were trying to get a conservative justice nomination through a Democratic Congress. There IS an active movement to suppress discussion of ID.

Ahmadinejad Says End Of The World Near - Messianic “Hidden” Imam Al Mahdi Is Now Running The Show

Yeah...the guy with the sign is the nut...ok. [Link: patdollard.com...]

re: #209 Honorary Yooper

a product has to get to market before it can fail.

re: #248 mama winger

No. Only people OFF their meds can post.

What about those of us who don't take any meds?

re: #252 Charles
Thanks
I have seen the expelled exposed site
What I was looking for
was corroborating stuff from other places
if you find any along the way please post

Here's a cool science fact. Apparently the cavity in our bodies (under the vital organs? I was never good at Biology) is lined with many, many little open capillaries. When internal bleeding occurs, the blood drains into this cavity, where it is somehow kept fresh and oxygenated, and eventually absorbed back into the bloodstream. The Dr. who told me this said that you can even receive a slow-acting blood transfusion by injecting blood into the cavity. Thank you, God, for allowing us to evolve in such a wondrous manner!

re: #251 Pope Insouciance IV

CHEERS

re: #174 Lively

They said the same thing about Moses.

Who did?

re: #257 right wing zephyr

If only thy were clean enough for me to spit upon.