happy mudder's day to all the mudder's out there.

I'll be posting test comments and deleting them, so don't y'all be speculatin'.

Ha! Looks to be a fun thread. :)

did ya hear about Charles #3

///

A pop quiz? I cannot speak for everyone else, but I have not studied, hope I do not get an F-

Postcards From Yo Mamma

Made me smile, I hope they make you smile too.

And I'm test driving a new mouse- the old one was absolutely making me crazy. Would double click on it's own. Maddening!

Is anybody blogging from Lebannon that we know of?

If it's a filter for foul language we could help. hahaha

Catholic-Muslim conference concludes

The meeting, which was convened by the Islamic Circle of North America (ICNA) and Catholic representatives of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops’ (USCCB) Committee on Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs, explored teaching about different religions in private and public institutions.
....
From a pedagogical perspective participants looked at effective ways to educate about other religions, and said the most effective approach should not only provide basic information but also draw attention to the spiritual values of a religion. They said maintaining a positive tone in curriculum content can help correct a bias against religion that exists in some educational and political environments.

Participants also agreed that to develop critical thinking skills students need to know the story of religions in a balanced way, neither emphasizing negative features nor promoting the religion in a devotional style more appropriate to a mosque or church setting.

Ugh.

re: #11 The Albatross

Lebanese Political Journal

re: #13 Killgore Trout

Catholic-Muslim conference concludes

Ugh.

Yes, the Grand Imperial All Powerful Mufti said afterwards that Muslims and Catholics can get along just fine. Fine and Dandy, providing the infidels either convert, subjugate themselves or die....and, some people actually say Muslims are not tolerant!?!?!?!

re: #13 Killgore Trout

Ugh.

I'll second that.

re: #14 Killgore Trout

Thanks Kilgore

Just another test...

re: #13 Killgore Trout

USCCB sounds like they've lost their bearings.

/must be old age.

Stinky deletes Charles. Lebanon!

Wow. Rough thread! What in heaven's name is Charles saying?!

/ :)

re: #2 Charles

I'll be posting test comments and deleting them, so don't y'all be speculatin'.

Murmur. Murmur. Hubbub. Hubbub. Speculatin'. Speculatin'. Whisper. Whisper. Hubbub.

Those deleted posts could be holes that hatchlings fell through...wonder where those holes come out at?

re: #23 Ma Sands

lots and lots of flowery adjectives, no doubt

I'm testing edge cases ... where the last comment is deleted, for example, and you hit 'new comments'. Previously a bug would reset the comment counter; it's fixed now.

re: #26 Desert Dog

:)

Also, clicking on the icon for usernames like 'Lizardoid Minion #32757' will now work correctly and bring up their profile page.

Here's my photo tribute to my Mother I wanted you all to see, please don't delete me..

re: #18 Charles

Charles, looks like you missed and hit #19. :-)

re: #16 EC Marm

I know I'm tough on the Church sometimes but do they really have to do this? Why can't they strive to be a counterbalance to the influence of Islam in the West? There's a niche market there that they're completely ignoring. I get worried sometimes that they see secularism as the real enemy and that the Islamists are their allies. The ICNA is a pretty shay organization. There's a list of participants that I haven't googled yet but I'll bet that there were supporters of terrorism at that convention.

re: #30 Charles

Oh! So there really ARE such Lizards! I always thought I was in the Twilight Zone, or something.....

So salient to our time...

TURNING and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

-William Butler Yeats

What kind of bugs are in the engine? Their not roaches, are they? Ewwww

*stomp*

re: #32 NoSubmission

Nice.

re: #32 NoSubmission

Beautiful!

Like mother, like daughter...

re: #32 NoSubmission

Wonderful! What a beautiful and talented woman, you were blessed! :)

re: #32 NoSubmission

Please do not be offended. DUDE(tte)! Your Mom is HOT!

OK.

I'm not going to get upset the next time someone messes up they're and their.

But boarders for borders are still right out!

*self important huff*

re: #34 Killgore Trout

Seeping political correctness has infiltrated even the RC Church....I seem to remember reading a few stories about that same church standing up to, defeating and pushing back Islam....now, they want to hold hands with them and skip through the daisies in the park? It's hard to make nice when one side thinks you are scum and wants to kill you or make you a second class citizen after you "submit".

re: #41 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Please do not be offended. DUDE(tte)! Your Mom is HOT!

My son's friends used to drive him crazy about his mommy. Heh.

re: #42 Shay4l

LOL!

re: #39 gettinby

Beautiful!
Like mother, like daughter...

Thank you.

#40 gop_patriot
Thanks too. I am very lucky indeed.

re: #32 NoSubmission

Hope she saved some of those original cels

:)

re: #41 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Please do not be offended. DUDE(tte)! Your Mom is HOT!

I'm a dudette. LOL.
Thank you. My mother was the best mother for miles.

re: #34 Killgore Trout

I know I'm tough on the Church sometimes but do they really have to do this? Why can't they strive to be a counterbalance to the influence of Islam in the West? There's a niche market there that they're completely ignoring. I get worried sometimes that they see secularism as the real enemy and that the Islamists are their allies. The ICNA is a pretty shay organization. There's a list of participants that I haven't googled yet but I'll bet that there were supporters of terrorism at that convention.

The only reason I could see the Catholic Church and/or Catholic high schools and colleges doing this is monetary based. In this section:

Participants also agreed that to develop critical thinking skills students need to know the story of religions in a balanced way, neither emphasizing negative features nor promoting the religion in a devotional style more appropriate to a mosque or church setting.

Sounds so much like higher education administrators helping teachers to write lesson plans. I mean, IF you HAVE to teach it, that would have to be the approach.
I prefer the approach that the Pope is taking to Islam, fix your system-allow other religions, then we'll talk. But this is the U.S. Bishops.

re: #47 Shay4l

Hope she saved some of those original cels
:)

Nope. All went into the dumpster. Sad. I know. Each and every one was hand inked and hand painted.

re: #34 Killgore Trout

Killgore, I wouldn't take this as representative of the catholic church so much as a bunch of ecumenical zealots professing to be catholics. In the ecumenical belief system, it doesn't matter what you believe, all faiths are equally valid. This leads to severe issues when attempting to embrace the raging beast that is radical islam. This same bunch would (and does) just as eagerly embrace secularism as well. They have set aside the scriptures that they don't believe are relevant anymore and have substituted "thou art god" in its place. They see the future as actively embracing and melting all faiths into one unified spiritualism with peace, prosperity, and unity of humankind resulting.

/No, I'm not catholic, I'm Lutheran -- but we have elements in lutheranism (most notably in the ELCA) who also embrace this ecumenism.

re: #51 AZfederalist

Interesting.

There you are guys! Open thread !

9/11 Truther Fanboy decides to quote "The Constitution" against a Secret Service agent. Hilarity ensues

re: #54 Psaturn

So- after a brief review of the di's analysis, it would appear that the "copy/paste" their claiming is due to citing the opinions of expert witnesses. Almost everything that is verbatim is previously cited testimony, such as depositions and other material. You're going to find that in any law case.

One the main page, the mouseover text box no longer pops up for the thread's most recent comment links.

/IE7

Lanny vs Anderson Cooper and Communist News Network

re: #34 Killgore Trout

I know I'm tough on the Church sometimes but do they really have to do this? Why can't they strive to be a counterbalance to the influence of Islam in the West? There's a niche market there that they're completely ignoring. I get worried sometimes that they see secularism as the real enemy and that the Islamists are their allies. The ICNA is a pretty shay organization. There's a list of participants that I haven't googled yet but I'll bet that there were supporters of terrorism at that convention.

Kiillgore

There is a counterbalance in the West...the Evangelicals do see the danger of Islam in the West. I have several friends who are from Africa and South America and pastors church in Germany and are doing their thing to fight Islamism. They have even gone to Turkey and help convert several Muslims to Christianity!

Locally, we have a local chapter for Act! for America, a group that attempts to inform people about the dangers of Islam and everyone in the core leadership are of the Evangelical Christian persuasion. I have attempted to have atheists and non religious people to participate in the local chapter meetings and they are not interested. Act! Up for America does not seek to be a Christian organization but rather a neutral organization that seeks to inform the danger of Islamization of the West and the Sharia establishment against the freedom that we enjoy in the West.

re: #56 Sharmuta

Even misstating a fact? The fact that there were no peer reviewed journals published but there were peer reviewed journals that were actually published in the name of ID. I don't think they were retracted, yet..

re: #37 Shay4l

What kind of bugs are in the engine? Their not roaches, are they? Ewwww

*stomp*

Nope. They're Replicators.

/and Charles is searching for the shutdown code

And Psaturn- I will be going over it again more thoroughly to confirm my finding, and if I'm wrong, I'll get back to you and honestly tell you I was wrong. But again- so far it seems the matching text is due to the quoting of depositions.

re: #34 Killgore Trout
Add'l
As far as I know there is not yet an "Islamic" college in the U.S. Yet I suspect there are hundreds of U.S. Catholic colleges and University's which have courses on Islam. It seems, reading between the lines, that perhaps this might have been initiated by the Catholic administrators in order to keep the moaning, groaning, and offended Muslims at bay. Just my guess.

For anyone interested, TNT has Saving Private Ryan on.

re: #42 Shay4l

OK.

I'm not going to get upset the next time someone messes up they're and their.

But boarders for borders are still right out!

*self important huff*

Imma stickler fur that kinda stuff too

re: #60 Psaturn

Two people quoting the same source (in this case- a deposition) are going to have the same quotes. I don't know what is difficult to understand about that.

re: #64 Empire1

For anyone interested, TNT has Saving Private Ryan on.

Actually, perfect for Mother's Day!

re: #55 Killgore Trout

They are such tools! They provoke the SS and cause a disturbance around the First Family, then everything that happens afterwards is the result of "provocateurs", and, of course, they are completely innocent.

It's too much to hope for that they'll fall down a loose sewer grate....

re: #66 Sharmuta

Sometimes lawyers confuse me and I get lost ! LOL

There is a new thread by the way!

re: #37 Shay4l

What kind of bugs are in the engine? Their not roaches, are they? Ewwww

*stomp*

They are Madagascar hissing cockroaches

re: #64 Empire1

I saw it once. Enough. ): My father, before he got married, was there, in the Invasion of Normandy.....he went out from the Great Lakes in a fleet of 80 wooden Navy tugs --only five made it back.....

re: #70 Psaturn

There is a new thread by the way!

Yeah, but I know more about self-deleting open threads than Finkelstein. Read the lead on the thread, and don't want to know more about the Fink.

re: #13 Killgore Trout

From a pedagogical perspective participants looked at effective ways to educate about other religions, and said the most effective approach should not only provide basic information but also draw attention to the spiritual values of a religion. They said maintaining a positive tone in curriculum content can help correct a bias against religion that exists in some educational and political environments.

pedagogical perspective participants

Say that 3 times fast.

re: #34 Killgore Trout

I know I'm tough on the Church sometimes but do they really have to do this? Why can't they strive to be a counterbalance to the influence of Islam in the West? There's a niche market there that they're completely ignoring. I get worried sometimes that they see secularism as the real enemy and that the Islamists are their allies. The ICNA is a pretty shay organization. There's a list of participants that I haven't googled yet but I'll bet that there were supporters of terrorism at that convention.

I don't think they're necessarily doing something disadvantageous in the long run: merely escalating European Christiandom's inevitable descent into irrelevance.

It would be more effective to euthanize this crippled institution and erect new assertive ones at the vanguard of the cultural necessities of our times, then try to rehabilitate it as an ally in the fight against Islamification.

I sure hope the Church sees the secularists as the true enemy: I want all mystics of all stripes polarized and extracted from the political scene.

re: #69 Psaturn

Sometimes lawyers confuse me and I get lost ! LOL

I understand. I might not have caught it myself were it not for the numerous depositions I've looked at myself. Halfway through my second review, and indeed- the judge is citing deposition testimony just as the aclu did in their finding of fact.

Sharmuta,

I was trying to think why would secular Jews and religious Jews be part of Discovery Institute if the primary goal of organization was to "bring people to Christ" as the Wedge Document seem to indicate?

I thought that was curious.

re: #75 medaura18586

I don't think they're necessarily doing something disadvantageous in the long run: merely escalating European Christiandom's inevitable descent into irrelevance.

It would be more effective to euthanize this crippled institution and erect new assertive ones at the vanguard of the cultural necessities of our times, then try to rehabilitate it as an ally in the fight against Islamification.

I sure hope the Church sees the secularists as the true enemy: I want all mystics of all stripes polarized and extracted from the political scene.

What do you mean?

I meant this part

I sure hope the Church sees the secularists as the true enemy: I want all mystics of all stripes polarized and extracted from the political scene.

What do you mean?

Psaturn- why would secular Jews and religious Jews be willing to negotiate with the palestinians?

I think that's beyond curious.

Psaturn-

Here's some reading for you on Phillip Johnson, father of the intelligent design movement, and I guess and AIDS denialist.

re: #72 Ma Sands

I must confess I've never seen it myself -- I really don't care for war movies -- but I've seen quite a bit of talk about it here, so I thought some folks might like to know it was on. :)

I'm very glad your father was one of the survivors!

-- Ann

USS Cole Heads Back to Lebannon

This is a test of the emergency LGF system, it is only a test. If it was an actual emergency- we ask you to walk, not run to the nearest exit. (Although we know you will all run like scared rabbits climbing over each other to get to the nearest exit!)

re: #82 Empire1

I must confess I've never seen it myself -- I really don't care for war movies -- but I've seen quite a bit of talk about it here, so I thought some folks might like to know it was on. :)

I'm very glad your father was one of the survivors!

-- Ann

I've got it on DVD and CD..... sound effects on the opening and closing scenes are outstanding on the BOSE home theater system!

So are Garth Brooks concert CDs... :>)

Interesting, a leftist Biologist, trying to use Biology to get US out of Iraq

Robert Trivers
Professor of Anthropology and Biological Sciences
Rutgers University
Somerset, N.J.

His juvenile boasting about getting a biology prize aside, Trivers is not best known for his biological writings at all but rather for his long collaboration with Huey Newton and the Black Panthers. Perhaps it is not surprising that someone who cheers Hizbollah terrorism and thinks Israel practices "butchery" when it retaliates against the Hizbollah should also have long served as an apologist for Afrofascist racism and American domestic terrorists.

Trivers started his academic career at Harvard. As a Harvard undergraduate he had a nervous breakdown and was denied admissions into the University's Law program. Instead, he moved into biology in 1967 to study lizards. After getting his PhD, he taught at Harvard for a while but got turned down for tenure. In embittered response, he stopped academic work altogether for many years. The Guardian (UK) on August 27, 2005 wrote, "Robert Trivers could have been one of the great romantic heroes of 20th-century science if he'd died in the '70s, as some people supposed he would." Early on, he proposed a theory about the effects on the gender of offspring in animals that was later largely debunked.

From Harvard he moved to the University of California at Santa Cruz, long a hotbed of political radicalism. (UCSC employed Angela Davis gave the Black Panthers' Huey Newton a "PhD".) Trivers later described the move to UCSC thus: "It was a once-in-a-lifetime mistake, in the sense that I can't afford to make another one like that. I survived, and I helped raise my children for a while; but that was all."

Biological research having lost its attraction for him at the time, he devoted his energies to the Black Panthers. According to John Brockman as cited in the Boston Globe, "Over the years there were rumors about a series of breakdowns; he was in Jamaica; in jail. He fell off the map."

He established contact with Huey Newton while the latter was in prison. Newton liked Trivers' theories about "self-deception." They became close chums. Trivers officially joined the Panthers in 1979. He turned out articles for them claiming that IQ tests were being used to oppress black folks. Newton and his co-terrorists were willing to forgive Trivers the fact that he is white. Trivers had grown up in Jamaica; his father was a Jewish refugee from Lithuania. (Burney Le Boeufas calls him "the blackest white man I know.")

Trivers published "research" together with Newton, including an analysis of the role of self-deception by the flight crew in the crash of Air Florida Flight 90 (Trivers, R.L. & Newton, H.P. Science Digest 'The crash of flight 90: doomed by self-deception?' November 1982). Newton was godfather to Trivers' youngest daughter. Trivers still features large in the "Dr. Huey Newton" collection at Stanford University.

Trivers has never abandoned his leftist extremism and PC wackiness. Trivers' career includes ten days in a police lock-up over a disputed hotel bill. According to the Guardian, " His language matches the macho clothes: for an Ivy League professor, he says 'fuck' a lot."

Trivers thinks population growth and "reproductive success" (which drives evolution) are more dangerous than nuclear war and endorses zero-population growth. At Rutgers he has been involved in "Palestinian solidarity" activities and efforts to "divest" from Israel. As the Wall Street Journal letter shows, Trivers thinks Israel defending itself from terrorist aggression is "butchery", and we can just imagine what he thinks of the unjustified American "aggression" against Iwo Jima in World War II.

continued

Here's a jewel from Agence France-Presse: McCain faces doubts among Republican conservatives.

Some vote for libertarian Texan Ron Paul, who has refused to quit the race and has racked up more than one million votes, according to his campaign.

Other Republicans keep voting for former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney, and former governor Mike Huckabee of Arkansas -- both markedly more conservative than McCain -- although both have long since dropped out of the race and endorsed him.

As many as 25 percent of Republican voters want a different candidate to represent their party in the November 4 presidential election. In Pennsylvania, 27 percent opted for Huckabee or Paul; in North Carolina and Indiana on May 6, McCain opponents earned 23 percent of the vote.

The Washington Times, a conservative newspaper, calculated that McCain had garnered no more than 45 percent of the Republican vote since January.

McCain's reputation as a party maverick and a compromising moderate has left the party's most conservative and ideological members disgruntled.

He focused this week on winning their backing, delivering a major speech on legal issues and promising to nominate conservative justices to any possible new Supreme Court vacancies, as President George W. Bush has done.

And now I'm leaving for a bit -- Mother's Day festivities and all that. BBIAW!

continued

Trivers has tried to deploy his biological theories on "self-deception" as ammunition for the Left's attempt to force an American capitulation in Iraq. He says: "Then the 1990s, the era of Clinton and feel-goodism: when he lied, nobody died. Well, half a million Iraqis died in the 1990s, and that's just counting children, .... I fear that we'll spend our lives always describing in retrospect what deceit and self-deception just did to us and not getting to the point where we can try to prevent some of the bullshit ahead of time."

So much for his scientific discourse and accuracy.

[Link: 64.233.167.104...]

re: #84 LEGION

This is a test of the emergency LGF system, it is only a test. If it was an actual emergency- we ask you to walk, not run to the nearest exit. (Although we know you will all run like scared rabbits climbing over each other to get to the nearest exit!)

If it was an actual emergency, you would be instructed to bend over, put your head between your legs and kiss your a** goodbye..... (Especially if Hussein gets elected) Hillary gloats she would 'obliterate' someone. (Don't bet on that either)

re: #86 Psaturn

A Rutgers University prof, eh?

He's gotta be from Livingston College. They'll take just about anyone with money and a pulse.

/Rutgers alumnus

re: #79 Psaturn

I meant this part

What do you mean?

I mean that I think the Church (of all denominations, mostly Catholic and Protestant) is a corrupt dinosaur institution in Europe. Its influence among Europeans is shrinking by the minute and there are no foreseeable prospects for regeneration. I would personally prefer, for Europe's sake, that the Church jumps the shark and aligns itself (either by action or by inaction) with the Islamists. That way, when a coherent secular movement emerges (hopefully soon), it can kick both the Ummah and the Church to the curb (two birds with one stone).

I don't see the future of the defense of Western values to come from the old religions (Judaism or Christianity). The sooner those religions are dislodged as authoritative sources of cultural identity, the sooner a viable alternative can emerge.

Medaura- congratulations on the nuptials. Good luck to both of you. :)

re: #81 Sharmuta

Psaturn-

Here's some reading for you on Phillip Johnson, father of the intelligent design movement, and I guess and AIDS denialist.

I know about him!

In fact I was at Berkeley when he was professor of law at Boalt Law School!

Have you heard of Dr Peter Duesberg? He is Professor of Molecular Cell Biology and Virologist. He is the main proponent of HIV was not the sole cause of AIDS.

Interesting that this wikipedia article would try to use the AIDS thing to impugn Dr Phil Johnson.

It is like the discussion of Global Warming, is the Carbon Dioxide the SOLE culprit of climatic change?

re: #79 Psaturn

What do you mean?

I think Dictionary dot com could help you with that answer:

inane –adjective
1. lacking sense, significance, or ideas; silly: inane questions.
2. empty; void.–noun
3. something that is empty or void, esp. the void of infinite space. [Link: dictionary.reference.com...]

It was an inane statement. Reminds me of many years ago when I installed a software program, "KidWriter" in an early ed classroom. Six and seven year old children could pick random phrases and create a paragraph. It never made much sense, but the kids had fun. Coming from a religious anarchist.

re: #90 Shay4l

A Rutgers University prof, eh?

He's gotta be from Livingston College. They'll take just about anyone with money and a pulse.

/Rutgers alumnus

Ah! I know someone who is a Plant Biologist graduate researcher at Rutger's..

I am wondering if he is still a creationist...LOL

re: #96 ploome hineni

she's baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack

*shaking head*
Yup, like 1.5 billion Catholics and 1.5 billion Muslims, which together equal half the population of this planet, are going to overnight give up their beliefs, based on her opinion of what they should do.

re: #94 EC Marm

It was an inane statement. Reminds me of many years ago when I installed a software program, "KidWriter" in an early ed classroom. Six and seven year old children could pick random phrases and create a paragraph. It never made much sense, but the kids had fun. Coming from a religious anarchist.

Now someone who can wrap me up real nice... How insightful!

The Mister to whom you extended your deepest "sympathizes" has something to say

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

happy seething!

re: #92 Sharmuta

Medaura- congratulations on the nuptials. Good luck to both of you. :)

Thanks Shar! Though the actual wedding is in a week. I'll send you pictures, I know I told you it would be low key, but wait til you see ;)

re: #100 medaura18586

Congrats Medaura on this happy occassion! May you have many children! Unless you don't want to!

re: #99 medaura18586

happy seething!

Sorry, I don't seethe. Nor do I pretend to be something I'm not.

Hope you have a wonderful wedding.... love, life, laughter and I wish you a "happily ever after".

re: #91 medaura18586

I don't see the future of the defense of Western values to come from the old religions (Judaism or Christianity). The sooner those religions are dislodged as authoritative sources of cultural identity, the sooner a viable alternative can emerge.

Who would you consider a viable alternative, after the Christians and Jews are gone?

re: #106 gop_patriot

Who get's to decide which viable alternative is chosen?

re: #104 ploome hineni
Apparently, this statement:

oooops, that was me, logged in under my husband's nic by mistake.

Was untrue. I'm shocked!

re: #102 Psaturn

Thanks! I'm pretty young now but they're definitely in store. It will be nice to trade my freshman 15 for the new-mom chub.... someday... ah, one can only hope!

re: #107 ggt

Who get's to decide which viable alternative is chosen?

Apparently, the Christians or the Jews don't get a say in the matter, according to some.

re: #111 ploome hineni

who knows or cares

Should we make a list of all of the lgfers she has attacked since her triumphal entrance in November? Anyone not on the list? On second thought, who gives a f.

re: #107 ggt

re: #106 gop_patriot

Who get's to decide which viable alternative is chosen?

I'll do it.
I'm enough of a grouchy SOB that whatever I pick should piss everybody off.
// {;-)™

re: #110 gop_patriot

Yeah, I guess the individuals who are who live in a free society and who chose their faith of their own free will are just patsys of a corrupt instituion.

/

re: #106 gop_patriot

Who would you consider a viable alternative, after the Christians and Jews are gone?

Please read more attentively: I did not advocate for "the Christians and Jews to be gone". There is a big difference between a down to Earth community of believers of any faith (even some moderate community of Muslims, and yes, they DO exist) on the one hand, and the political leadership of any religion (the Catholic Church, Archbishop of Canteburry, and the average imam in the average UK mosque on the other.

Religion is fine amongst civil observers, but its touting as the moral/philosophical/political foundation of Western civilization is NOT fine. America is still more religious than Europe: over there 95% of Christians (don't know about the Jews, but they probably converge in the same trend) are religious in nominal terms only. They won't get excited over religious fervor, and the head of their Churches will not be able to motivate them to assert the values of their culture or shake off apathy in the face of the islamist threat.

What's needed is a philosophical movement that is universal and non-religious. Something everyone can identify with, even the ever growing numbers of apostates from the organized great religions. Existing Chrisnians/Jews can also be part of this and not as "second class" subscribers either. A universal humanist philosophical movement that accepts various religions but does not put them at its conceptual core...

re: #110 gop_patriot

Apparently, the Christians or the Jews don't get a say in the matter, according to some.

Yup. We should bow before our betters, who escaped the hell holes of the world. Especially the 21 year olds of the world that know it all. G-d help us.

Yes, what we need is another political movement.

"A universal humanist philosophical movement "

I think it needs more words to really be a viable option.

Wake-up, what you are talking about already has a name. It's called "Christianity." You may not like the way it's practiced, and guess what, your version won't be practiced as well as anyone would like either --humans will be involved.

re: #114 Da_Beerfreak

LOL!

re: #115 ggt

Yeah, I guess the individuals who are who live in a free society and who chose their faith of their own free will are just patsys of a corrupt instituion.

/

Maybe we should just outlaw religion! Then everything would be better.
OH WAIT, they already tried that.

re: #110 gop_patriot

Apparently, the Christians or the Jews don't get a say in the matter, according to some.

They get plenty of say, as rational individuals who value a template of society along the line of the US founding fathers (the US constitution is not an American document in the culturally provincial sense of the word, it contains universal ethical truths applied to political philosophy), but not as Christians, Jews, or Muslims per say (i.e it makes no sense for them to explicitly insinuate parts of their religion in the movement).

Zombie was proposing something close to this a few weeks ago, and was intentionally misinterpreted. She didn't hint at people of faith being purged out of the future of any political/cultural movement in defense of the West, but rather that no one's religion can be the FOUNDATION of such a movement: there needs to be a lowest non-conflictive common cultural/ethical denominator to delineate the boundaries of the battle of ideas to preserve our civilization.

Putting any particular religion at the forefront will not do.

What's needed is a philosophical movement that is universal and non-religious. Something everyone can identify with, even the ever growing numbers of apostates from the organized great religions

Shoot! I can't get 500 residents to completely agree on whether or not they want speedbumps in their community.

/out of my element here, but couldn't pass on the "everyone" statement.

re: #119 buzzsawmonkey

The notion that Wisdom reposes in teenagers and early-twenty-somethings, a post-WWII delusion, will be the death of Western society.

Can you trace for me the beginning of that thought delusion? Dr. Spock, perhaps? I never subscribed to it for one minute.

re: #121 medaura18586

zombie is a she? I did not know that!

re: #121 medaura18586

there needs to be a lowest non-conflictive common cultural/ethical denominator to delineate the boundaries of the battle of ideas to preserve our civilization

Could you please define "our civilization"?

re: #115 ggt

Yeah, I guess the individuals who are who live in a free society and who chose their faith of their own free will are just patsys of a corrupt instituion.

/

Take offense all you want, though none is meant. I am not sure that you have enough appreciation for the philosophical bankruptcy of European religious institutions. The US is different in that at least religion here is a bit more innocent and believes more in itself. In Europe it's all been about power for two millennia, and Europeans know it. They don't care about their own religion and it means very little (statistically at least, of course I cannot speak for everyone) to people. It is rotting and it needs to be allowed to die. Do not resuscitate...

re: #121 medaura18586

I do understand what you are saying...would Republican party do? After all, they have secularists, gays (log cabin Republicans), Christians, Catholics, Jews , agnostics ... are part of it...

re: #126 medaura18586

Medaura, the largest churches in Europe in terms of congregational membership are Evangelicals...

re: #125 Pater Coop

there needs to be a lowest non-conflictive common cultural/ethical denominator to delineate the boundaries of the battle of ideas to preserve our civilization

Could you please define "our civilization"?

Western civilization... guided and inspired by western philosophy, a cultural respect for reason, human life and consciousness, scientific inquiry, free enterprise, negative rights, limited government... ya get the drift? These are areligious virtues of a society. They do not necessarily conflict with religion, but religion is not at their core (hence the founders' decision to separate religion from state has served posterity so well).

Excuse me if I choose to refuse to accept a twenty-one year olds, refugee from a third world hell hole, English as second language, not living in the United States, interpretation of what zombie said. I doubt if it was possible to get it any more wrong.

re: #129 buzzsawmonkey

Mr. Spock would never say that. Not logical!

So we get rid of religion and believe in people? We have Mother Teresa, Pope John Paul II, Martin Luther King. The other side has Stalin, Mao, Charlie Manson. What part of humanity do you intend to appeal to? Humans better natures? That has worked real well for Israel .

re: #130 medaura18586

Are you saying that pre-Christian philosophers--take Aristotle, for example--were not religious?

re: #93 Psaturn

Interesting that this wikipedia article would try to use the AIDS thing to impugn Dr Phil Johnson.

I don't see how they're "impugning" him. The wiki article on AIDS denialism has one of his quotes with citation.

For anyone interested...

valentine81 (from Beirut?) just posted an update on the goings-on there in the Arab League 'Condemns' Hizballah thread.

re: #134 buzzsawmonkey

Oh, did I forget my / ? Pardon me!

re: #116 medaura18586

Please read more attentively: I did not advocate for "the Christians and Jews to be gone". There is a big difference between a down to Earth community of believers of any faith (even some moderate community of Muslims, and yes, they DO exist) on the one hand, and the political leadership of any religion (the Catholic Church, Archbishop of Canteburry, and the average imam in the average UK mosque on the other.

I understood, I know you didn't mean for their deaths, or to have them removed. I was talking about in the political sense, also. Sorry if that wasn't clear. Perhaps, "bound and gagged by anti-religion laws" would have worked better. But let me understand this then, bolded above- you are suggesting that it's "fine" for us to have beliefs, as long as we don't come out of our place and get involved in politics and political life? The head of a huge community of believers (no matter what the faith) cannot represent said believers to the heads of state? Are you kidding me? Why stop with religions (except that is apparently your particular bee in the bonnet), why not insist that no large groups can be represented by their elected/appointed leaders when dealing with law and policies that will effect the members of their particular group?

A problem is this, whether or not you believe that religion as an institution is a positive or negative force, or a failing or benign force in Europe, you come across as very anti- everyone who isn't a secularist.

And this:

Religion is fine amongst civil observers, but its touting as the moral/philosophical/political foundation of Western civilization is NOT fine.

Well, I hate to break it to you, but it absolutely is a large part of the foundation of Western civilization.

re: #122 gettinby

Shoot! I can't get 500 residents to completely agree on whether or not they want speedbumps in their community.

/out of my element here, but couldn't pass on the "everyone" statement.

You got a point!

re: #137 gettinby

Very interesting! Thanks for the link.

re: #140 Psaturn

Friend of mine had a cat named speedbump.

re: #140 Psaturn

It's a very totalitarian holistic idea.

re: #123 EC Marm

Rouseau's noble savage idea might be a starting point.

You know- the ad hominem is very unbecoming.

re: #142 Ojoe

was he a people's cat

re: #146 ggt

Well he lived in a hippy town.

re: #145 Sharmuta

But as a prepositional phrase, it is rather fetching! (Sorry--I'm a Latin teacher. I couldn't resist!)

re: #137 gettinby

For anyone interested...

valentine81 (from Beirut?) just posted an update on the goings-on there in the Arab League 'Condemns' Hizballah thread.

Wow! Thanks, gettinby, for the link.
Prayers for valentine81 and all those caught up in this madness.

re: #140 Psaturn

You got a point!

/a good one? LOL

It's just very loose thinking for anyone to believe that everyone can 'become as one' in our not-so-perfect world (imho, of course).

To envision that this could be so takes an act of faith, maybe?!

THE FINAL
INSPECTION

The Marine stood and faced God,

Which must always come to pass.
He hoped his shoes were shining,
Just as brightly as his brass.
'Step forward now, Marine,

How shall I deal with you?
Have you always turned the other cheek?
To My Church have you been true?'
The soldier squared his shoulders and said,
'No, Lord, I guess I ain't.
Because those of us who carry guns,
Can't always be a saint.
I've had to work most Sundays,
And at times my talk was tough.
And sometimes I've been violent,
Because the world is awfully rough.

But, I never took a penny,
That wasn't mine to keep...
Though I worked a lot of overtime,
When the bills got just too steep.
And I never passed a cry for help,

Though at times I shook with fear.
And sometimes, God, forgive me,
I've wept unmanly tears.

I know I don't deserve a place,
Among the people here.
They never wanted me around,
Except to calm their fears
If you've a place for me here, Lord,
It needn't be so grand.
I never expected or had too much,
But if you don't, I'll understand.

There was a silence all around the throne,
Where the saints had often trod.
As the Marine waited quietly,
For the judgment of his God.
'Step forward now, you Marine,
You've borne your burdens well.
Walk peacefully on Heaven's streets,
You've done your time in Hell.'
~Author Unknown~

re: #139 gop_patriotWell, I hate to break it

"to you, but it absolutely is a large part of the foundation of Western civilization."

And a very large part of our Constitution. "We are endowed by our Creator." Not a tree, a mythical hero, a human, or an idealogy.

When the founders approved these words, they believed them to be true for all men. In our national experiment we have tried to make those words applicable to all.

If Europe or any other country has lost their collective respect for faith in "that than which nothing greater can be conceived" they are indeed doomed. No new idealogy will suffice.

re: #144 Ojoe

Rouseau's noble savage idea might be a starting point.

Which then was somewhat incorporated into Aldous Huxleys "Brave New World" (1932). Interesting.

re: #124 Psaturn

I don't know that she is a SHE for sure, but that's what I figured out from tidbits of info here and there. But please don't take at face value the interpretation of Zombie's gender by a 21-year old, English-as-a-second-language, originating from a shit-hole third world of a country.

;)
re: #127 Psaturn

Republicans WOULD do, if only they knew what they stood for. Here I articulate my thoughts better on this subject. The problem is that they don't seem to know what they stand for, and even Conservative is a label reinvented every time off the lips of the latest self-proclaimed specimen. We need to define a common platform, and of course it's no piece of cake... each can use their personal philosophy/religion as a roadmap to a common template, but the end product must transcend the particularities of any one's particular theistic or pet-issue stances if it will ever be viable.

re: #130 medaura18586

Western civilization... guided and inspired by western philosophy, a cultural respect for reason, human life and consciousness, scientific inquiry, free enterprise, negative rights, limited government... ya get the drift? These are areligious virtues of a society. They do not necessarily conflict with religion, but religion is not at their core (hence the founders' decision to separate religion from state has served posterity so well).

Medaura

Religious training and teaching (indoctrination to others) do impart values and worldview.

Europe has lost much of the religious teachings in the mainline churches and therefore its values have become much more secular. Spain is almost 90% secular by the fact that her churches are nearly empty and the Spanish birthrate has plummeted. It is interesting that Spain has voted socialists again in Zapatero. At least Zapatero spoke for Aznar when dealing with Chavez and defended that Aznar was elected by Spain and he was not faascist.

The challenge with a secular value is that it would ascribe religion as a different category and categorize all as 'same' when it is not.

It was interesting to observe during the discussion of evolution versus creation how many folks here are theists...and actually do follow their religious persuasion versus the agnostics and atheists.

I did observe on Zombie who exclaimed that sex change on children amounts to equal to murder to be quite interesting.

Where do right and wrong come from?

Who will decide who is right and who is wrong?

Should we decide democratically?

Even the American founders did not trust the American people wholly and so created a Republic as opposed to a directly democratically elected government...using the Electoral College.

re: #153 ggt

Excellent post.

re: #154 EC Marm

Some of them took the soma tablet seriously as well. Pearl Buck wrote about it first, I think, in the Good Earth. Using drugs to placate large groups of the population -- sad concept.

re: #157 Ojoe

Thank you.

re: #155 medaura18586

I don't know that she is a SHE for sure, but that's what I figured out from tidbits of info here and there. But please don't take at face value the interpretation of Zombie's gender by a 21-year old, English-as-a-second-language, originating from a shit-hole third world of a country.

;

Well...English was my fourth language...

I came from Spain...not too far from being a third world country either!

And I was not native to Spain either! I was what they call an immigrant...I think I was legal...

re: #160 buzzsawmonkey

Not to cavil, but "endowed by their Creator (with certain inalienable rights)" is from the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution.

Yeah we get those two mixed up all the time!

re: #160 buzzsawmonkey

eh, you got the idea. You are, of course, correct. I should have said "our founding documents."

re: #135 Pater Coop

Are you saying that pre-Christian philosophers--take Aristotle, for example--were not religious?

I did not say that at all, but most of them indeed were non religious. Even if they were religious, they had ways of abstracting from the particularities of their respective religions in order to reach transcendental great ideas that are of timeless value to humankind. They were relevant then, as they are relevant now, 2000 years after.

I am not saying religion should be purged at all. I am socially liberal and fiscally conservative, but I lead such a socially conservative life, that the traditional insinuations of Christianity with private life don't even bother me personally all that much if at all. But they do bug a whole lot of people, and whether I or you or anyone here likes it or not, religion is dying in the West. I am not advocating for it to happen (not that I necessarily have anything against it) but it's the state of affairs, and this is the demographic tide of events.

We mustn't swim against it or all will be lost. We must adapt in the new environment, because the future is unavoidably increasingly secular. What modern prepositions can we develop to entice the swelling numbers of secularists of the new generations?

These apostates of Christianity/Judaism must not be lost to moral/cultural relativism or to the Left. The Left claims itself secular and scientific. The Right is moronic to come off as a religious flamer and grant legitimacy by contrast to these precious labels the Left is claiming for itself.

Conservatives/anti-idiotarians/the Right/Republicans/whatever, must welcome and not alienate secularists.

You may not agree that religion is the opiate of the masses if you hold religion dear to your own heart, but you must agree that "secular" Leftism is the crack cocaine of the ideologically vulnerable apostates of organized religion.

People of faith must find common ground with secularists/atheists/scientists and unite with them as precious allies in the future battle of ideas.

This is what I am interested in.

re: #160 buzzsawmonkey

Not to cavil,

Too late! ;) jk

/goes to look up "cavil", sheesh
"Cav"il, n. A captious or frivolous objection."
//feels smarter now lol

Well, I'm off to enjoy Mother's Day.

Enjoy the day all!

re: #166 buzzsawmonkey

I see that the cavilry has arrived.

LOL! You, my dear, have been on a roll lately. :)

re: #97 Psaturn
Well, Plant Biologist is probably Busch instead of Livingston. Busch required a transcript to enroll

re: #152 Eyes of Blue

A humble Amen.

re: #156 Psaturn

Re your post, some quoted from Pope Benedict:

Before we knew him as Benedict, while he was still Joseph Ratzinger, he was telling us what he knew, but between his “rottweiller” caricature and all the religious wrappings, we missed it:
“...the population of an entirely planned and controlled world are going to be inexpressibly lonely ... and they will then discover the little community of believers as something quite new. As a hope that is there for them, as the answer they have secretly always been asking for.” [emphasis mine - admin] — (from God and the World)
He knows. Listen to this 20th century man who sees what comes ahead because he vividly remembers all that came before - all that we want to believe we’ve left behind. He recognizes the tyrant because he has seen it, has felt its breath on his very neck. And in that statement, he acknowledges for us that the tyrant this time will eat up liberty so thoroughly that only in the spirit will freedom be found, nourished and strengthened. A totalitarian world without a spiritual defense will be unsurvivable.

Link: The Anchoress. Scroll down to April 21

re: #153 ggt

If Europe or any other country has lost their collective respect for faith in "that than which nothing greater can be conceived" they are indeed doomed. No new idealogy will suffice.

In the ashes of WWII when the realization that six million Jews, a couple of million Catholics, and untold other groups were annihilated in Germany, that is the moment when Church attendance in Europe began its slide.
I do not believe that "the America's" have seen a decline. We did the right thing, the brave thing, at a cost of millions of our own lives. Based on an abiding faith in G-d and love of country.

re: #161 Psaturn

Well...English was my fourth language...

I came from Spain...not too far from being a third world country either!

And I was not native to Spain either! I was what they call an immigrant...I think I was legal...

that was just re: #156 Psaturn

Europe has lost much of the religious teachings in the mainline churches and therefore its values have become much more secular. Spain is almost 90% secular by the fact that her churches are nearly empty and the Spanish birthrate has plummeted. It is interesting that Spain has voted socialists again in Zapatero. At least Zapatero spoke for Aznar when dealing with Chavez and defended that Aznar was elected by Spain and he was not faascist.

It was interesting to observe during the discussion of evolution versus creation how many folks here are theists...and actually do follow their religious persuasion versus the agnostics and atheists.

I did observe on Zombie who exclaimed that sex change on children amounts to equal to murder to be quite interesting.

Where do right and wrong come from?

Who will decide who is right and who is wrong?

Should we decide democratically?

Even the American founders did not trust the American people wholly and so created a Republic as opposed to a directly democratically elected government...using the Electoral College.

a second-hand bone thrown to the bigoted EC Smarm.

Those are very interesting and challenging points. I for one believe Democracy to be highly overrated, and it has been enjoying a surge in popularity lately because our cultural landscape is painted with a lot of vivid COLLECTIVIST leftist colors.

Democracy is nothing but tyranny of a mob, expect for when imposed on decision making structures involving issues that a free market cannot take care of all by itself (and there aren't many such issues out there).

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" --Benjamin Franklin

I do not trust "the people" at all, and the founders were smart not to either. However, we must build enough trust in our citizenry to make sure that the mobs will not destroy our liberal institutions through their voting powers. We must make sure that the citizenry respects the US constitutions and the principles for which it stands. Without that minimal agreement, our institutions will be corroded/subverted until they are just a pathetic clown of what they were meant to be (the process has already dreadfully started).

All I care for is freedom. The founders had their own complicated ethical ideas to corroborate their political philosophy, but opted for the then greater common moral denominator (the Creator endowed us with thse unalienable rights).

But they left it vague like that for a reason: the theological nature of the Creator, whether he is the God of Israel, the father of Christ, Zeus, a pantheistic Hindu God, or just the Big Banger who blasted the Big Bang and left the universe to go its own merry way from there (which is actually what the most distinguished founders happened to believe; they were Deists) is IRRELEVANT: what's important is the kind of rights we are endowed with, and why they are universal and indisputable.

Any civilized atheist/heathen can understand, if properly explained to, that being left alone and being allowed maximum freedom is in his/her interest.

We needn't speculate on the nature of the Creator, because useless divergence that way lies.

Natural Law as a branch of western philosophy is concerned with determining what is right and wrong on a political level. We must draw from this rich tradition and formulate/emphasize the parts of it that require the least leaps of faith to agree with because it's easier to convince anyone of the merits of an idea that doesn't require a personal non-standardizable theistic/metaphysical speculation.

re: #173 medaura18586

Natural Law as a branch of western philosophy is concerned with determining what is right and wrong on a political level. We must draw from this rich tradition and formulate/emphasize the parts of it that require the least leaps of faith to agree with because it's easier to convince anyone of the merits of an idea that doesn't require a personal non-standardizable theistic/metaphysical speculation.

The problem is...will the people accept it?

For example, the European Union tried to adopt a Constitution that tried to avoid G-d and Christianity altogether and Poland, with an Atheist President in helm at that time, said they should include and credit Christianity and Judeo Christian values for the Western ideas. It was apparent a certain group of people tried to pass something similar to what you were proposing and it seems to me it is not going well with the general European voters...

I see that "MPH" is going around dinging down posters.

/ enough of this bullshit

re: #131 EC Marm

Excuse me if I choose to refuse to accept a twenty-one year olds, refugee from a third world hell hole, English as second language, not living in the United States, interpretation of what zombie said. I doubt if it was possible to get it any more wrong.

-She is not a "refugee."

-Albania is poor and quite corrupt, but it is not a "hell-hole." In fact, I've never seen a more pro-american place in any of my travels. I am certain it will rise will in the same way Poland and the Czech Republic (and Ireland, too) currently are. Remember the heat Don Rumsfeld took for the "old europe" remark? He understood that the new europe lies to the east.

-I believe Kejda's English SATs were in the high 600s after only one year of speaking the language (she also speaks italian perfectly, and she is learning french and spanish). If I may boast for her, she is a genius with languages and she has no problems communicating on paper or in person. I never interfere with the fun she has on LGF -- and while I may not agree completely with all her methods, I do agree with her aims.

-What Zombie was advocating was quite clear. She too desires a secular basis for human freedom and dignity. There is nothing evil in advocating or desiring a strong moral basis for freedom...nor is the secular argument very complicated. Many variants have been presented many times before -- John Locke, Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, John Stewart Mill, Frederic Bastiat, Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman and many more... We are lucky to have such a powerful foundation of ideas on which to help focus our ideal of freedom for the future of mankind.

re: #175 ec marm

I see that "MPH" is going around dinging down posters.

/ enough of this bullshit

I agree...I was dinged down for a post that I thought it was objective...and relevant to the discussion...but apparently it was not liked and so it was dinged down...and no response to that post either...just a ding down...

Oh well...

re: #177 Psaturn

GIMF.............Gaze is my friend.

re: #177 Psaturn

I agree...I was dinged down for a post that I thought it was objective...and relevant to the discussion...but apparently it was not liked and so it was dinged down...and no response to that post either...just a ding down...

Oh well...

Please point me to the post and I'll offer an explanation (sorry, I dont remember dinging you down). In my opinion, EC Marm's posts today deserve -1. I thought that is what the +/- was for.

re: #177 Psaturn

Down dings are a badge of honor when applied by those who have nothing to say, but don't realize they are speaking volumes.

Ding ding ding ding
Here comes my trolley
My trolley
To take me back
To the funny factory

re: #164 medaura18586

These transcendental great ideas of which you speak--would you care to enumerate them? Let's see how many of them correlate to Christian values!

My point is that you cannot separate Western civilization from its Christian underpinnings. If you were to eradicate all instances of Christian philosophy from Western civilization, I cannot imagine that you would recognize it anymore!

IMO, no true Christian will ever seek to alienate another. Neither, on the other hand, will they tolerate evil.

re: #182 Pater Coop

We had to not tolerate evil by using armies in WW2.

re: #86 Psaturn

As a Harvard undergraduate he had a nervous breakdown and was denied admissions into the University's Law program. Instead, he moved into biology in 1967 to study lizards. After getting his PhD, he taught at Harvard for a while but got turned down for tenure.

Did you guys notice that?

I wonder if he studied the new lizardoids species at LGF !

BBL

re: #179 MPH

It was not you!

re: #139 gop_patriot

Well, I hate to break it to you, but it absolutely is a large part of the foundation of Western civilization.

Ok, to your reframed question, the answer is: NO, I do not even mean for religious communities to be BANNED from having political representation! That is ridiculous and not at all what I am talking about.

But subscribers to any religion cannot claim any special rights/privileges in the political scene merely through their large numbers. That's what separation of Church and State was meant for in the US.

Of course churches are still important politically in the US as their leadership influences votes on certain issues. Am I advocating that religious figureheads be banned from trying to influence their fellow church-members? Duh, not one bit.

So not from a legalistic perspective, but from a purely strategic point of view, moonbats/self-loathing Leftists/rabid Islamists cannot be combated effectively from the religious pulpit. A more universal strategy accommodating to atheists/secularists is needed.

Religion is part of Western Civilization mostly in so far as it is part of our history and consciousness. No one can deny it. By analogy, one cannot fully appreciate the feeling of falling in love unless one has read classic literature on the topic or watched great movies, heard great love songs. These cultural blueprints implicitly influence the way we digest our own feelings/thoughts on a topic.

Likewise, Christianity is part of our heritage. Great literature essential to the West is sprinkled with it all over. Our symbolism, framework for many ethical issues, is undeniably contaminated by Christian hues, and no sane atheist/secularist (probably coming from religion parents) can deny this.

But Christianity is not part of the "political functional" part of Western Thought, at least not of its best parts. You and I need not agree on the nature or existence of a creator to agree that limited government is good, human life is precious, a liberal society is a great culture to live in, and particularly, that the US is a great country and we are proud to live in it. Don't you respect the notion that I should not be burned as a witch for disagreeing with you or any source of authority on any issue?

That's our common ground, basic individual rights, limited government, a respect for liberty and entrepreneurship.... and that's what the Islamists will try to ultimately subvert (as they are doing in Canada with the human rights commissions jokes).

Those are the basic things we need to agree on in order to live civilly and it's the virtues of these tents that we need to articulate in unison.

re: #174 Psaturn

The problem is...will the people accept it?

For example, the European Union tried to adopt a Constitution that tried to avoid G-d and Christianity altogether and Poland, with an Atheist President in helm at that time, said they should include and credit Christianity and Judeo Christian values for the Western ideas. It was apparent a certain group of people tried to pass something similar to what you were proposing and it seems to me it is not going well with the general European voters...

Well it's easy to agree on the basic features of a pro-Western non-relgions (or supra religion) ideological movement... But it's hard to agree on the specifics. The EU is a joke and their constitution was a despicable leftist rag in all its stages of conception. They would do better to just copy paste the US conctitution.

re: #179 MPH

I did see what you did...you are right...it is not called for to make that kind of remarks...

The religious stuff on this thread is a tad heavy for me today. So--

May I offer my imagined take on what goes on on a Sunday afternoon in the Obama household?

Michelle: B-A-R-R-A-C-K ! Now you go and practice your bowling, you know we have to appeal to those poor white voters. Remember you order a "beer" not Sauternes when you are in a bar, and don't tell them you want goat cheese when you get processed American cheese in your sandwich. And stay away from that Teddy Kennedy, I think he is a bad influence on you.... "

Barrack (glum): Yes dear.

re: #82 Empire1

Thank you. Me too! --and I'm sure my children and grandchildren are, too. :)

re: #175 ec marm

That's what the ding button is for, toots.

...so mind-boggling.

re: #186 Psaturn

It was not you!

Ok -- thanks. Why did you think it was me?

re: #180 BulgarWheat

Down dings are a badge of honor when applied by those who have nothing to say, but don't realize they are speaking volumes.

Maybe it helps to grow a thicker skin? Thicker scales rather?

re: #192 MPH

Ok -- thanks. Why did you think it was me?

I did not say it was you ! I was replying to whoever it was...that Dinging was getting ridiculous...

re: #187 medaura18586

"That's what separation of Church and State was meant for in the US."

I'm still fascinated how people can reference "Separation of Church and State" when it does not appear in the U.S. Constitution or Declaration of Independence.

Please kindly tell me where I over looked it.

/crickets for days..............

re: #195 BulgarWheat

"That's what separation of Church and State was meant for in the US."

I'm still fascinated how people can reference "Separation of Church and State" when it does not appear in the U.S. Constitution or Declaration of Independence.

Please kindly tell me where I over looked it.

/crickets for days..............

It is a modern interpretation of what the framers was saying...

OK, my wife has caught on to the fact that I am not grading papers. So long everybody and thanks for the discussion.

BTW, do you have to refresh the page to get an update on +/- dings? I do not see new tallies until I click the ding number or click on new comments.

re: #197 Pater Coop

OK, my wife has caught on to the fact that I am not grading papers. So long everybody and thanks for the discussion.

BTW, do you have to refresh the page to get an update on +/- dings? I do not see new tallies until I click the ding number or click on new comments.

Go back to work or else I shall ding you down!

/just kidding!

re: #196 Psaturn

A modern interpretation.............. I call that bullshit. Period. They knew what they were saying and they said it quite clearly. Case closed!

re: #195 BulgarWheat

"That's what separation of Church and State was meant for in the US."

I'm still fascinated how people can reference "Separation of Church and State" when it does not appear in the U.S. Constitution or Declaration of Independence.

Please kindly tell me where I over looked it.

/crickets for days..............

If you are that deep in the LaLa woods and need clarification with regard to this, I don't know if it would be worth my time to educate you.

Plus, I am already writing volumes with no meaning as it is, right? Why add to the vacuous voluminosity?

re: #200 medaura18586

As I said.....................

Crickets for days, nay weeks, nay months.....................

GAZE

re: #200 medaura18586

Medaura, read the First Amendment carefully...

re: #201 BulgarWheat

What does GAZE mean again?

re: #196 Psaturn

It is a modern interpretation of what the framers was saying...

It's not that modern. It was pretty clear back then what they were saying. Especially when the personal letters/quotes/speeches of the main framers are considered, the context could not be any clearer.

I didn't think church-state separation was considered a controversial interpretation of the Constitution.

re: #203 Psaturn

It means that I freaking ignore them no matter what they say or post. If they can't engage in a conversation or answer a question, they are no longer worth the time.

selah!

re: #204 medaura18586

It's not that modern. It was pretty clear back then what they were saying. Especially when the personal letters/quotes/speeches of the main framers are considered, the context could not be any clearer.

I didn't think church-state separation was considered a controversial interpretation of the Constitution.

Medaura, it is now being used to push FREEDOM from religion and religious ideas...I do not think that was the intent of the framers of the Constitution.

re: #182 Pater Coop

These transcendental great ideas of which you speak--would you care to enumerate them? Let's see how many of them correlate to Christian values!

My point is that you cannot separate Western civilization from its Christian underpinnings. If you were to eradicate all instances of Christian philosophy from Western civilization, I cannot imagine that you would recognize it anymore!

IMO, no true Christian will ever seek to alienate another. Neither, on the other hand, will they tolerate evil.

[Link: kejda.net...]

that's my personal enumeration. Classically Liberal values may overlap with parts of Christianity/Judaism but they definitely do not derive from it. Slavery was off-handedly condoned by God. A slave was to be circumcised, not to be freed.

Women are not equals to men either.

God gave man monarchy (the Jewish kings), not a clasically liberal republic.

etc, etc....

Testing.

re: #205 BulgarWheat

It means that I freaking ignore them no matter what they say or post. If they can't engage in a conversation or answer a question, they are no longer worth the time.

selah!

What you said does not make sense BulgarWheat. You said you will ignore them no matter what they say and then add if they cannot engage in a conversation or answer question..

Well if they answer your question, then you ignore no matter what, then why should they answer you...? Right?

Happy Mother's Day to all Moms!

This thread will close temporarily...

re: #206 Psaturn

Medaura, it is now being used to push FREEDOM from religion and religious ideas...I do not think that was the intent of the framers of the Constitution.

Freedom from the political meddling of any religion or religious idea: that's what its intent was. Freedom of rabid atheists to get rid of religious ideas all together, that's not what's meant to be. I am not sure its intent is being twisted much in this direction anyway, do you know of any relevant cases?

That's not what the much enlightened BulgarWheat was talking about though.

Testing...

re: #209 Psaturn

I asked a question, it was not answered or even addressed. I'll try once, but I give up after that.

Life is too short. I'll let other wiser people than me address that.

Hell, I'm just a court jester here. I'm not the authority by any means.

I just get to decide where I do and don't waste my time.

One of life's great pleasures.

re: #207 medaura18586

[Link: kejda.net...]

that's my personal enumeration. Classically Liberal values may overlap with parts of Christianity/Judaism but they definitely do not derive from it. Slavery was off-handedly condoned by God. A slave was to be circumcised, not to be freed.

Women are not equals to men either.

God gave man monarchy (the Jewish kings), not a clasically liberal republic.

etc, etc....

G-d did NOT give monarchy...the Jewish people demanded kings like the gentile nations had...

Before that, Israel was ruled by the Judges.

About slavery...it is another subject...but we do have modern version of slavery...we call them employees...they are at mercy of their bosses...of course with certain limitation by the Law...(such as employers cannot use sexual harrassment in workplace, cannot abuse employees...etc...laws were passed simply because they were committed and done by the employers and bosses !).

If you read carefully how people fell into slavery (usually due to debt)..you would understand that when you are in debt to someone, you are slave to hat person !

Excellent. No more loopholes where you can keep posting comments even if a thread is closed or expired, by having a window open to the thread.

If a thread is closed, or becomes older than 7 days, it's finito. Kaput. Pau.

re: #204 medaura18586

It's not that modern. It was pretty clear back then what they were saying. Especially when the personal letters/quotes/speeches of the main framers are considered, the context could not be any clearer.

I didn't think church-state separation was considered a controversial interpretation of the Constitution.

/are you a lawyer?

re: #211 Charles

This thread will close temporarily...

Really ? Oops !

re: #216 Charles

Excellent. No more loopholes where you can keep posting comments even if a thread is closed or expired, by having a window open to the thread.

If a thread is closed, or becomes older than 7 days, it's finito. Kaput. Pau.

Oh..that means if a thread is older than 7 days no one can post to it ?

re: #187 medaura18586

Ok, to your reframed question, the answer is: NO, I do not even mean for religious communities to be BANNED from having political representation! That is ridiculous and not at all what I am talking about.

Well, you said:

I don't see the future of the defense of Western values to come from the old religions (Judaism or Christianity). The sooner those religions are dislodged as authoritative sources of cultural identity, the sooner a viable alternative can emerge.

Which looks to me like you're saying that the "old religions" of Judaism and Christianity having a part in the defense of Western values, isn't acceptable, and that you were looking forward to them being "dislodged" from public discourse as "authoritative" representatives of "cultural identity" (which they are, by definition), so another, more "viable alternative" can take their place. Which makes my observation not "ridiculous". But if you're saying now that that is NOT what you're saying, cool.

But subscribers to any religion cannot claim any special rights/privileges in the political scene merely through their large numbers. That's what separation of Church and State was meant for in the US.

There is no official separation of Church and State in the constitution, or any other founding document. The phrase is mentioned only in a letter from Jefferson to a church, and was in reference to the State not having authority over the Church, like it did in Merry Olde England. I don't mind the debating about it, though. :)

Of course churches are still important politically in the US as their leadership influences votes on certain issues. Am I advocating that religious figureheads be banned from trying to influence their fellow church-members? Duh, not one bit.

I wouldn't say "duh, not one bit", because it sounded an awful lot like that's what you were saying, if not outright, by insinuation (comment #91).

...continued in next post, sheesh LOL I got to zero characters remaining. ;)

re: #220 gop_patriot

Out freaking standing 1st post on this. I look for the follow on!

re: #221 BulgarWheat

Out freaking standing 1st post on this. I look for the follow on!

Then maybe we can talk about the much vaunted "right to privacy".

/'cause that ain't in the Constitution either

re: #222 Killian Bundy

The Fourth Amendment (Amendment IV) to the United States Constitution is one of the provisions included in the Bill of Rights. The Fourth Amendment guards against unreasonable searches and seizures, and was designed as a response to the controversial writs of assistance (a type of general search warrant), which were a significant factor behind the American Revolution.[citation needed] Toward that end, the amendment specifies that judicially sanctioned search and arrest warrants must be supported by probable cause and be limited in scope according to specific information supplied by a person (usually a peace officer) who has sworn by it and is therefore accountable to the issuing court.

The Supreme Court has ruled that the Fourth Amendment is applicable to the state governments by operation of the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, and that the Fourteenth Amendment is applicable to the state governments because it is part of the Constitution of the United States.[1] The Supreme Court has said that some searches and seizures may violate the Fourth Amendment's reasonableness requirement even if a warrant is supported by probable cause and is limited in scope.[citation needed] Conversely, California courts have found that routine warrantless seizures are warranted where an "officer has probable cause to believe that the person to be arrested has committed a felony, whether or not a felony, in fact, has been committed." [2]

Never saw anything about separation of church and state.

re: #215 Psaturn

G-d did NOT give monarchy...the Jewish people demanded kings like the gentile nations had...

Before that, Israel was ruled by the Judges.

About slavery...it is another subject...but we do have modern version of slavery...we call them employees...they are at mercy of their bosses...of course with certain limitation by the Law...(such as employers cannot use sexual harrassment in workplace, cannot abuse employees...etc...laws were passed simply because they were committed and done by the employers and bosses !).

If you read carefully how people fell into slavery (usually due to debt)..you would understand that when you are in debt to someone, you are slave to hat person !

Sorry but you lost me there:

If God knows best, He would have given the Jewish people something better than what they had actually asked for. He would have given them something close to the US government. He is God Almighty he could have perfectly told them "look, there's a better way to rule yourselves and I will teach it to you"... The former rule by Judges was not that great either, and it would be considered religious autocracy by today's standards.

As for slavery, that answer was not satisfactory:

Again, God Almighty could have proclaimed to His people that freedom/individual-autonomy is a sacrosanct inalienable right which can not be traded away through debt.

What about the inherited status of slavery? Why should the children of a debtor inherit the parent's burden? But God seems to punish the children for the sins of the fathers (according to Scripture) so I guess that would be a consistent, however unethical (by modern standards) position.

The vast majority of slaves were made through wars anyway, not through debt, and especially in more recent times (African Slaves). The Bible did not address such savagery.

How about polygamy in Biblical times? Abraham the greatest of Jews had quite a harem.

Those are not Western values; they are culturally closer to a semitic, even Islamic culture.

Western Civilization owes much more to Athens and Rome than to Jerusalem.

Also, in that rant about employers as slave owners, I could not disagree in stronger terms. I hope you are not aware of it, but that's leftist strife. You are free to quit any job in which you feel exploited. Slaves were not even allowed to hold jobs and earn wages to themselves.

re: #222 Killian Bundy

IVth Amendment mentions the right of the people to be secure against unreasonable searches and seizures.

So it's there IMHO.

re: #220 gop_patriot

I wouldn't say "duh, not one bit", because it sounded an awful lot like that's what you were saying, if not outright, by insinuation (comment #91).

...continued in next post, sheesh LOL I got to zero characters remaining. ;)

Well do you think the Church should have authority over the state then?

The separation of church and state is a legal and political principle derived from the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, which reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ." The phrase "separation of church and state", which does not appear in the Constitution itself, is generally traced to an 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists, where Jefferson spoke of the combined effect of the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment. It has since been quoted in several opinions handed down by the United States Supreme Court.[1]

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ." is a sufficiently explicit proclamation in the Constitution for anyone with any basic reading comprehension skills.

I won't regurgitate what I meant with respect to the previous posts, because I think I have made my position clear enough and any further attempt of making my words plainer could only further confuse: they couldn't be any clearer as it is. So make of them what you will.

re: #223 BulgarWheat

Protection against against unreasonable searches and seizures doesn't translate into a right to privacy.

/from which the liberals then tortuously pulled the right to an abortion out of their penumbras

re: #227 Killian Bundy

Protection against against unreasonable searches and seizures doesn't translate into a right to privacy.

/from which the liberals then tortuously pulled the right to an abortion out of their penumbras

Nowhere does the Constitution address the issue of abortion, and by the tenth amendment the people/states have a default right to it. That's where they "pull a right to abortion" from, not the 4th amendment.

re: #217 Killian Bundy

/are you a lawyer?

Are you?

re: #226 medaura18586

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ." is a sufficiently explicit proclamation in the Constitution for anyone with any basic reading comprehension skills.

I won't regurgitate what I meant with respect to the previous posts, because I think I have made my position clear enough and any further attempt of making my words plainer could only further confuse: they couldn't be any clearer as it is. So make of them what you will.

That was BulgarWheat's point...

Congress shall not make no law regarding an establishing a religion...meaning it will not call for an official church.

Prohibiting the free exercise...well...that can be argued that there is more and more restriction...

re: #229 psaturn

That was BulgarWheat's point...

Congress shall not make no law regarding an establishing a religion...meaning it will not call for an official church.

Prohibiting the free exercise...well...that can be argued that there is more and more restriction...

Well what does "separation of church and state" imply at face value? It's a two fold separation. re: #195 BulgarWheat

"That's what separation of Church and State was meant for in the US."

I'm still fascinated how people can reference "Separation of Church and State" when it does not appear in the U.S. Constitution or Declaration of Independence.

Please kindly tell me where I over looked it.

/crickets for days..............

It doesn't sound like that's what he meant.

Oh sweet Jebus, has anyone read Obama's press release on the situation in Lebanon?

Hezbollah's power grab in Beirut has once more plunged that city into violence and chaos. This effort to undermine Lebanon's elected government needs to stop, and all those who have influence with Hezbollah must press them to stand down immediately. It's time to engage in diplomatic efforts to help build a new Lebanese consensus that focuses on electoral reform, an end to the current corrupt patronage system, and the development of the economy that provides for a fair distribution of services, opportunities and employment. We must support the implementation of UN Security Council Resolutions that reinforce Lebanon's sovereignty, especially resolution 1701 banning the provision of arms to Hezbollah, which is violated by Iran and Syria. As we push for this national consensus, we should continue to support the democratically elected government of Prime Minister Siniora, strengthen the Lebanese army, and insist on the disarming of Hezbollah before it drags Lebanon into another unnecessary war. As we do this, it is vital that the United States continues to work with the international community and the private sector to rebuild Lebanon and get its economy back on its feet.

Emphasis mine.

re: #228 medaura18586

Nowhere does the Constitution address the issue of abortion, and by the tenth amendment the people/states have a default right to it. That's where they "pull a right to abortion" from, not the 4th amendment.

Um, no. Stop now, because you're in over your head in Constitutional law.

Are you?

Yes.

/licensed and everything

re: #232 Killian Bundy

Yes.

/licensed and everything

Good for you.

So is Obama, Hillary, Bill, John Edwards, John Kerry, et al. They don't know a dick from a thumb with respect to the Constitution.

Just because you are "licensed and everything" it doesn't make you a source of authority.

re: #230 medaura18586

Well what does "separation of church and state" imply at face value?

Constitutionally, nothing.

/because it's not there, that's not what the First Amendment says or means, if you'd bother reading it carefully

re: #195 BulgarWheat

I'm still fascinated how people can reference "Separation of Church and State" when it does not appear in the U.S. Constitution or Declaration of Independence.

Please kindly tell me where I over looked it.

/crickets for days..............

re: #199 BulgarWheat

A modern interpretation.............. I call that bullshit. Period. They knew what they were saying and they said it quite clearly. Case closed!

The phrase separation of church and state is generally traced to a letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 to the Danbury Baptists, in which he referred to the First Amendment of the United States Constitution as creating a "wall of separation" between church and state. --wikipedia

Of course, it was mostly by his hand that the Constitution (and the 1776 document) were written. He was US president from 1801-1909. So it would be wrong to claim it's an entirely modern interpretation.

re: #233 medaura18586

Just because you are "licensed and everything" it doesn't make you a source of authority.

Fine, why don't you just go right ahead a post some more ignorant nonsense. It's obvious you don't have a clue about Constitutional law.

/it's kind of funny to watch actually

re: #234 Killian Bundy

Constitutionally, nothing.

/because it's not there, that's not what the First Amendment says or means, if you'd bother reading it carefully

Do these words ring any bells?
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ."

Because that's what most people, including myself, use "separation of church and state" as a proxy for.

I made that very clear.

Any more hairs to split?

re: #236 Killian Bundy

Fine, why don't you just go right ahead a post some more ignorant nonsense. It's obvious you don't have a clue about Constitutional law.

/it's kind of funny to watch actually

I'm glad to provide a show... so long as EC Smarm is also laughing his fat bigoted paranoid ass off.

Onward! :)
re: 187

So not from a legalistic perspective, but from a purely strategic point of view, moonbats/self-loathing Leftists/rabid Islamists cannot be combated effectively from the religious pulpit. A more universal strategy accommodating to atheists/secularists is needed.

Perhaps, not combated legally, but they can be combated socially. Which I believe (could be wrong of course) that's what you're saying...
In atheist/secular nations, Jews and Christians, along with other religious peoples have been (USSR) and are still today (China), persecuted ruthlessly; but in those nations whose foundations were based upon Judaism and Christianity (England, USA, Canada, Israel), secularists and atheists are free to believe, live, and participate in government at their leisure, and with no fear of losing life or limb (Saudi Arabia, ick). So I'd say that atheists and secularists are pretty darn well accommodated in the west, and largely because of Judeo-Christian thought and application thereof. Mao and Stalin, on the other hand, were quick to kill anyone who disagreed with them.

Religion is part of Western Civilization mostly in so far as it is part of our history and consciousness. No one can deny it. By analogy, one cannot fully appreciate the feeling of falling in love unless one has read classic literature on the topic or watched great movies, heard great love songs. These cultural blueprints implicitly influence the way we digest our own feelings/thoughts on a topic.

Likewise, Christianity is part of our heritage. Great literature essential to the West is sprinkled with it all over. Our symbolism, framework for many ethical issues, is undeniably contaminated by Christian hues, and no sane atheist/secularist (probably coming from religion parents) can deny this.

I certainly agree with you on this. Sadly, reference to many Christian things are being taken out, literally, of books (for example, within the last year or two I have looked at two copies of "Heidi", one printed many years ago and a new copy; the new copy does not contain the hymn which references Christ) and schools.

But Christianity is not part of the "political functional" part of Western Thought, at least not of its best parts. You and I need not agree on the nature or existence of a creator to agree that limited government is good, human life is precious, a liberal society is a great culture to live in, and particularly, that the US is a great country and we are proud to live in it. Don't you respect the notion that I should not be burned as a witch for disagreeing with you or any source of authority on any issue?

Well, we don't have to agree, especially on whether or not Christianity is one of the best parts of the political functions in Western Thought. :) I believe that it is. I do agree with your other statements, although I think the witch burning comment is a little over the top. But whatever.

That's our common ground, basic individual rights, limited government, a respect for liberty and entrepreneurship.... and that's what the Islamists will try to ultimately subvert (as they are doing in Canada with the human rights commissions jokes).

Those are the basic things we need to agree on in order to live civilly and it's the virtues of these tents that we need to articulate in unison.

I agree, and many of those concepts come from the Torah and the Bible. Just sayin'. ;)

re: #235 abolitionist

To keep the State from establishing a State religion, like there was in England. Secular government. That's all it means.

/now it's being used by the liberals to attack the second clause, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

re: #240 Killian Bundy

Amen, and amen!

re: #237 medaura18586

Do these words ring any bells?
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ."

Because that's what most people, including myself, use "separation of church and state" as a proxy for.

I made that very clear.

Any more hairs to split?

Er, what it says is that Congress (ie; the government) is not allowed to make a law establishing an official religion, and can't do a darned thing about anyone wanting to freely exercise any religion they want. Nothing in there whatsoever about a formal separation, and nothing saying that religion can't have a say or representatives within the government itself.

re: #240 Killian Bundy

To keep the State from establishing a State religion, like there was in England. Secular government. That's all it means.

/now it's being used by the liberals to attack the second clause, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

Like, preventing prayers in school, is that prohibiting the free exercise thereof..?

Is prayers in public school like establishing a religion?

It can go on and on !

re: #241 BulgarWheat

Amen, and amen!

Wow! I haven't seen you this excited in a while !

re: #242 gop_patriot

That might be the best argument against the Global Warming crowd. When you find a sword, wield it.

re: #244 psaturn

I had desert after supper. Must be the blood suger.

Heh!

I'm so glad this is a snarky thread. Time to roll out Mr. Holland's Opus! It's just starting on AMC. Mr. Holland just made 2 coeds get on their knees to demonstrate that their skirts were too short and sent them to the pricipal's office. He'd have a stroke today.

Sadly, it's sbout the most entertaining thing I remember watching recently. Of course, I don't remember a lot, since I'm recuperating from spine surgery on Wednesday and the hospital was limited in their channel lineup.

At least I had a private room.

re: #240 Killian Bundy

/now it's being used by the liberals to attack the second clause, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

There is a big difference between keeping religion out of the State apparatus/laws and blocking the exercise of religion within that State..

Is it not true that the word God was only inserted into the Pledge of Allegience in the 20th century?

re: #247 mommydoc
I hope you get well soon and Happy Mothers Day if it applies.

re: #235 abolitionist

Of course, it was mostly by his hand that the Constitution (and the 1776 document) were written. He was US president from 1801-1909. So it would be wrong to claim it's an entirely modern interpretation.

Damn! I memorized all those other presidents for nothing?

re: #226 medaura18586

Well do you think the Church should have authority over the state then?

I can only assume that you mean "the Church" as in "The Catholic Church?
No, and I don't know anyone who does.

/not Catholic, btw. Just so you know where I'm coming from

re: #250 mommydoc

Damn! I memorized all those other presidents for nothing?

LOL ! You got a point there!

How could one be president for over 100 yrs ?

re: #250 mommydoc

must be. we're getting educated by a Canadian immigrant after all.

Gotta get that re-education anywhere you can find it these days.

Thank you, snowcrash, both for the get well wish and for Mother's Day. I have a god daughter. Her mother and I are amazed at how exactly she takes after me, and not as much her mother. I get to enjoy her successes, support her when she screws up (as she did, recently) and still keep my figure.

re: #238 medaura18586

I'm glad to provide a show... so long as EC Smarm is also laughing his fat bigoted paranoid ass off.

I've never been called fat my entire life. But I am laughing my ass off watching you make an enormous fool out of yourself. Please don't stop.

re: #247 mommydoc

OUCH! (((mommydoc)))

Hope you're feeling better. Glad you're back with us, keep us updated!

re: #255 ec marm

ec. the Big OT was brought out. I thought that was exclusively a BabbaZee thing. I just can't keep it straight anymore.

re: #248 MPH

keeping religion out of the State apparatus/laws

Try reading it slowly, that's not what the First Amendment says:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

That only means that the State can't establish a State religion.

/not that religion has to be separated from the State

re: #257 BulgarWheat

ec. the Big OT was brought out. I thought that was exclusively a BabbaZee thing. I just can't keep it straight anymore.

Yup! I'm in the same club with BabbaZee! I am so proud.
Actually, doubly proud, since it is medaura AND MPH against little old skinny me.

re: #259 ec marm

A virtual high five my skinny Big OT friend.

re: #240 Killian Bundy

I agree. Also relevent to your point about the First Ammendment being (ab)used by some against religious freedom, another part of Jeffferson's legacy:
The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom was written in 1779 by Thomas Jefferson and James Madison.

re: #250 mommydoc
Oops, typo. Should be 1801-1809.

re: #239 gop_patriot