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Another 3600 Words from Fjordman

Sun, May 11, 2008 at 5:46:27 pm PDT

If you’d like to read another incredibly verbose attack by Fjordman that never deals with the basic issues we have with each other, here you go: To the Readers of Little Green Footballs.

(He’s “going over my head,” making a direct appeal to the lizard army, in a futile attempt to overcome my fearsome brainwashing abilities.)

My answer can be summed up in those three legendary words, “Where’s the beef?”

Despite the usual attacks on the people and organizations who’ve brought facts to light about European fascist groups and their relatively slick modern incarnations (without ever disputing the truth of those facts), all of the points Fjordman makes in this essay are peripheral to the very simple, very direct question that I’ve articulated over and over: is it morally right—or wise—to make alliances with European groups who have fascist backgrounds and (in the case of the Vlaams Belang) continuing fascist connections?

To me the answer is obvious: no.

Fjordman has taken a different path.

Follow the link in the left sidebar at Brussels Journal, right next to Fjordman’s article, titled ‘British Nationalist Forum’, to see what kind of people he’s hanging out with these days. Here’s a good place to start: rivers of blood - British Nationalist Forums.

UPDATE at 5/12/08 12:55:20 pm:

Øyvind Strømmen also replies to the latest volley of verbiage: eurofascism.info - To the readers of 3600 words too many.

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734 comments

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1 Zach_the_Lizard  Sun, May 11, 2008 5:47:27pm

Interesting.

2 Noam Sayin'  Sun, May 11, 2008 5:48:32pm

For the last time, Fjordman. Trim the posts down.

/didn't actually read it.

3 blue_like_jazz  Sun, May 11, 2008 5:48:42pm

ah, fjordman... we hardly knew ye.

i'm afraid that you will be found on the losing end of this issue.

4 Thanos  Sun, May 11, 2008 5:49:00pm

Belien's running ads for the same forums in his sidebar, or he was a while back. Now that they are outted, I don't think they care anymore.

5 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 5:49:05pm
6 Slumbering Behemoth  Sun, May 11, 2008 5:49:27pm

Must. Obey. Lizard. King.
/

And again, Happy Mother's Day to all you Lizard moms out there.

7 Thanos  Sun, May 11, 2008 5:49:42pm

doh, the essay is at Belien's place.

8 Zach_the_Lizard  Sun, May 11, 2008 5:50:21pm

I think Fjordman's waters were polluted when the Nazis invaded, and the pollution never floated away.

9 the_vig  Sun, May 11, 2008 5:50:39pm

Ha ha, this "fjordman" guy believes we are different races. Isn't that quaint.

10 freedombilly  Sun, May 11, 2008 5:50:48pm

I disagree with Fjordman. I think. I can't remember.

Charles, please tell me if I disagree with him.

My thoughts are in your hands...

11 Slumbering Behemoth  Sun, May 11, 2008 5:51:37pm

re: #5 taxfreekiller

Water, you say.

I was thinking it was something else...

12 experiencedtraveller  Sun, May 11, 2008 5:52:25pm

Fjordman overreacts.

13 Alouette  Sun, May 11, 2008 5:53:57pm

I think he's pining for the fjords.

14 Slumbering Behemoth  Sun, May 11, 2008 5:54:03pm

Experiencedtraveller understates.

15 Attaboid  Sun, May 11, 2008 5:54:37pm

Bah, humbug.

16 NY Nana  Sun, May 11, 2008 5:55:45pm

re: #12 experiencedtraveller

A regular drama queen...but so is my 8 year old granddaughter. She is hilarious..he is not.

He has gone over to the dark side.

17 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 11, 2008 5:56:38pm

Kinda odd that he waited all this time to say nothing again.

18 Globular Cluster  Sun, May 11, 2008 5:56:58pm

Despite Fjordman's pro-Israel stance, he consistently fails to disavow and terminate his relationship with BNP and other neo-Nazi groups. Those who wish to fight Jihad cannot ally themselves with the groups that only 60 years ago were exterminating Jews, Gays, Catholics, Russians and others. It must be remembered that the Nazis killed more Jews in a decade than Islam has during its entire history. Now they fear the Islamization of Europe, but these are allies we must avoid.

I honestly don't see why Fjordman and Atlas can't acknowledge the basic truth of Vlaams, the BNP, Le Pen, and simply denounce them. What is the problem?

19 Charles  Sun, May 11, 2008 5:57:19pm

re: #17 Killgore Trout

Kinda odd that he waited all this time to say nothing again.

I think he's had this one in his hard drive for a long time.

20 wahabicorridor  Sun, May 11, 2008 5:57:19pm

Fjordman, I've just finished reading your piece (saw it in the spinoff links before Charles posted).

I'm sorry. Honestly, I am. Some of the work you do is superb.

But you should change your nic to 'Faust'.

21 Killian Bundy  Sun, May 11, 2008 5:57:45pm
Johnson has continued posting negative remarks about the website Atlas Shrugs.

Since when?

/and that's only the first paragraph

22 fsjonesy  Sun, May 11, 2008 5:58:16pm

Look Who's Off His Meds Again!

23 WhiteRasta  Sun, May 11, 2008 5:58:22pm

I really can't be arsed to bother with him, anymore.

When you sup with the Devil, you better have a long spoon.

24 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 5:58:30pm
25 debutaunt  Sun, May 11, 2008 5:58:39pm

Again, I'm going to fjart in his general direction.

26 Idle Drifter  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:00:25pm

re: #17 Killgore Trout

Fjordman made his choices and we, the LGF Lizards, made ours. What is there left to discuss?

27 WhiteRasta  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:00:47pm

re: #25 debutaunt

SNORT, SNORT!

28 Lively  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:01:26pm

Didn't want to give him traffic.

29 MandyManners  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:02:29pm

That's one click I won't make.

30 nyc redneck  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:02:33pm

i remember when i used to see a post here from fjordman and i was so excited.

31 NY Nana  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:02:36pm

re: #18 Globular Cluster

Atlas never had the decency to even apologize to Charles, nor was she banned by the mensch she called her 'blog daddy' . Did you see it all unfold last October?

As a proud Jew and Zionist, she was the biggest shock of all.

32 Charles  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:02:51pm

The past seven months have been a real eye-opener for me.

33 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:03:12pm
34 Jimmah  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:03:20pm

I see a lot of typing up there Fjordman...

35 darkster2400  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:04:02pm

wasn't he one of the good guys?

36 BulgarWheat  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:04:49pm

re: #35 darkster2400

once upon a time. once upon a time.

37 winston06  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:04:53pm

The future of Europe is very dark as I see it

38 Pastorius  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:05:17pm

I've asked these people, repeatedly, to define their terms.

I am most interested in hearing how they define the following words:

Race

Ethnicity

Culture.

They're pretty squishy, especially on the word "ethnicity."

39 Charles  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:05:59pm

re: #38 Pastorius

I've asked these people, repeatedly, to define their terms.

I am most interested in hearing how they define the following words:

Race

Ethnicity

Culture.

They're pretty squishy, especially on the word "ethnicity."

Life's too short to wait for that.

40 Psaturn  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:06:16pm

Interesting that the Fjordman had to mention he was writing a review of a ook about anti semitic Islam and then anti semitic Christian book...

what does that mean?

41 madmax517  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:06:17pm

Does he have any peripheral sympathies with the retard white power friends of luap nor or the paultard army? I know the only man who can save america often was one a white supremacy radio show.

Can't we all just get along? Hope! Change! and Evan Almighty is on HBO right now.

42 Thanos  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:06:52pm

re: #19 Charles

I think he's had this one in his hard drive for a long time.

Fjordman's all ego and steam. Count the "I"s in his essays. To willfully discount facts because the fact originated with someone you dislike is the height of foolishness. Because "x" is a commie, we can't trust what facts they have posted, even though those facts can be independently researched and verified. Even though those facts are available at other sources.

By his logic we should have ignored MEK when they told us about Quds force supplying arms and training to the Mahdis, and the groups that told us of the Syrian reactor. After all they can't be real because the information originated at a tainted source.

43 Killian Bundy  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:07:24pm
The irony is that at the same time as I was declared persona non grata at LGF and publicly compared to a well-known Nazi apologist by the blog owner, the German writer Udo Ulfkotte suggested that I am actually "an artificial figure (a team) created by the US Secret Service." Since I have such a colorful and diverse list of critics, I am considering putting up a hotline for all those who don't like me: "If you believe Fjordman is a closet Nazi, press 1. If you believe Fjordman is working for the CIA, press 2. If you're a radical Feminist and think Fjordman is a male chauvinist pig who is just as bad as the Taliban, press 3. If you're a Muslim and think Fjordman is an infidel Zionist pig and want to cut off his head, leave the death threats after the beep."

How about, if you want Fjordman to get to the [expletive deleted] point, press four?

/I can't figure what the hell he's trying to get at

44 lawhawk  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:07:51pm

Well, that's time I'm never going to get back.

45 Globular Cluster  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:07:53pm

re: #31 NY Nana

Atlas never had the decency to even apologize to Charles, nor was she banned by the mensch she called her 'blog daddy' . Did you see it all unfold last October?

As a proud Jew and Zionist, she was the biggest shock of all.

It really is a shame she can't admit her mistakes and patch things up. She lost relatives in the Shoah and now accepts the allegiance of neo-Nazi groups. A very serious loss of perspective that is disturbing and depressing.

46 Yankee Division Son  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:08:10pm

Sorry Fjordman, my answer is .. "Nein!"

47 NY Nana  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:08:33pm

re: #37 winston06

Sadly, Eurabia has already arrived.

48 christheprofessor  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:08:44pm

Way too much verbosity...

Not gunn' read it. Wouldn't be proodent at this juncture...

49 William_Ryan  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:09:36pm

Sheesh Charles - please, whatever you need to do, let this end. Not b/c I think you're wrong (on the contrary, you're 100% right on this) but b/c for some weird reason, I feel compelled to read each of his responses. Reading a fraction as much as his posts got me through my Master's curriculum with flying colors. So please, for the love of god, find less verbose adversaries.

On a serious note though, it's telling that with all that prose, he says so little. Basically, from what I read, he just throws out a whole lot of stuff that's indirectly related and lets that suffice as his 'argument' or response. Whatever. You've pwned him every way that one can pwn someone yet he keeps coming back for more. What a masochist. If he didn't score a point by now he's not going to. But I don't think this will be the end of it.

50 wahabicorridor  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:09:44pm

re: #48 christheprofessor

Hi ya! How's the pooch?

51 Killian Bundy  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:10:08pm

re: #35 darkster2400

wasn't he one of the good guys?

/he lost me when adamantly insisted, from the other side of the Atlantic, that the U.S. was on the verge of a full blown race war

52 christheprofessor  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:11:03pm

re: #50 wahabicorridor

howdy! beautiful and asleep on the couch... howzabout you?

53 jjdaniels[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:11:14pm
54 Killian Bundy  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:11:57pm
I intend to write about the causes of Christian anti-Semitism. I will publish the full essay about this at Atlas Shrugs, the website of the courageous Pamela Geller, but before I do that I will arrange a preliminary debate at the Gates of Vienna, most likely on Wednesday this week. You are welcome to join in.

/oh boy, doesn't that sound like fun?

55 The_Vig  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:13:09pm

The real question is where does Fjordman fall on the evolution vs. Intelligent design debats?

56 Charles  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:13:19pm

re: #54 Killian Bundy

/oh boy, doesn't that sound like fun?

A real gas.

57 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:13:58pm
58 Thanos  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:14:04pm

They're heeeeeeeeeeeerrrrre....

59 jjdaniels[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:14:19pm
60 NY Nana  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:14:45pm

re: #45 Globular Cluster

It really is a shame she can't admit her mistakes and patch things up. She lost relatives in the Shoah and now accepts the allegiance of neo-Nazi groups. A very serious loss of perspective that is disturbing and depressing.

Spot on. I cannot understand how anyone who like too many of us, who lost family in the Shoah could possibly even for a nano-second, ally themselves with the neo-nazis of the 21st Century.

BTW, after a number of lizards went after her, she then came in with her comment re her family who were lost in the ovens. It seemed like an excuse, to be honest. There just is not any 'excuse'.

And as we type, we are losing more survivors who can bear witness...

If we can contact Charles by email, she certainly could have.

61 christheprofessor  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:15:35pm

re: #53 jjdaniels

Is there not a difference between race and ethnicity?

62 nyc redneck  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:15:45pm

re: #47 NY Nana

Sadly, Eurabia has already arrived.

well actually that's why fjordman is acting the way he is. he believes that.
i don't think it's such a grave situation over there that they need to go all 'nazi'. in england the enemy is only 2.7 % of the population and tho france is 8% that is hardly numbers for hysteria. my concern w/ these people is that they seem too eager to throw in w/ such distasteful groups who have more than shown their true colors in the past. it is too soon to get that desperate.

63 Josephine  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:16:06pm

Summary:

While he was making really good suggestions, he was unfairly declared persona non grata at LGF. Oh, the irony.

/

64 Macker  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:16:10pm

It (Fjordman) calls us leftists and Trotskyites. 'Scuse me while I laugh my ass off!

65 stevieray  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:16:15pm

As much as it pains me to say this, he is quite correct about the condition of Sweden. I have family over there, and they are looking forward to the time when they can move back to the States.

66 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:17:08pm

The PNB website is a real treat.

67 Charles  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:17:10pm

The four previous usernames of the now-banned 'jjdaniels':

Andrew_KJ
jasonkct
senor_lewie
jaxon

68 Macker  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:17:28pm

re: #56 Charles

How's about a Classical Gas?

69 Killian Bundy  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:17:28pm
The state-sponsored organization Expo has been treated as a credible source of information by LGF regarding Swedish politics, and was on at least one occasion linked to approvingly.

/got a linky for that?

70 Thanos  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:17:32pm

Note how the teacup racialist sets up the strawman in advance that if you don't agree then you must be a marxist....

71 snowcrash  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:17:33pm

Sorry fjordie. I do remember the recent dust up with GoV over genocide and that was more than enough to persuade me that LGF was on the right side of the issue. If your reputation is so tied up in the philosophy of these sites that our criticism of them insults you too, so be it. Wouldn't want to be aligned you.

72 wahabicorridor  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:17:52pm

re: #52 christheprofessor

howdy! beautiful and asleep on the couch... howzabout you?


We're very well, thanks. Off to finish my book.

Take care everyone. Charles, try not to pull your hair out, m'kay?

73 Idle Drifter  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:17:59pm

re: #64 Macker

I've always seen myself as an American Capitalist.

74 Charles  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:18:27pm

These threads have a way of pulling them out of the woodwork.

75 Pater Coop  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:20:05pm

Wow. I do not have time to wade through that essay. Could someone please summarize Fjordman's position in 25 words or less?

76 WriterMom  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:20:12pm

These threads are whacko flypaper...every nutter in Europe is going to be trying to get in.

77 WriterMom  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:20:41pm

re: #74 Charles

GAAAAAAAAAAAA you are in my brain.

Usually, that's BabbaZee's thing.

78 Noam Sayin'  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:21:12pm

re: #67 Charles

The four previous usernames of the now-banned 'jjdaniels':

Andrew_KJ
jasonkct
senor_lewie
jaxon

Dammit. And I just scrolled over him.

Now I'm dying to know what he said.

79 Globular Cluster  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:21:24pm

re: #53 jjdaniels

...
Europe, though, is a more thorny issue, since European borders were (mostly) based around ethnic lines. We Americans can easily claim to be "American" without throwing race into the mix. But in Europe, race and culture are more tied in their mindset (Only a leftist-Marxist would deny that) So the question to ask then is this: Can Europe make political parties where they feel they need to keep a national identity without falling into the trap of killing off minorities in their borders? Can they avoid National Socialism yet keep an identity they feel they deserve to keep?

But it's a totally false mindset. Europeans are no more racially pure than the most Heinz 57 of Americans. The Franks were originally a Germanic tribe that were forced into the area we now call France as a result of nomadic invaders from steppes. The Vandals started out in Germany, made their way across the European plain into France, then resided in Spain, then decided to cross Gibraltar and camp in North Africa, where they made their way to Tunis, then crossed into Sardinia, then crossed into Italy and sacked Rome.

Russia was founded by Norseman who settled in the are a of Kiev (a fact Russians strive with all their might to suppress). The Magyars made their way into Hungaria and had sex with all the existing residents, who then dispersed elsewhere. Most modern Greeks have nothing racially in common with Classical Greece -- the Slavs settled most of Greece and slavicized 90% of the population. A good portion of Germany is actually Polish by descent, or Prussian, a mix of Scandinavian and Slav. Speaking of Scandinavian, The Finnish language is most closely related to Turkish, because Finland was populated by Samoyed Reindeer pastoralists who originated in the northern Turkic steppe.

The idea of racial purity in any way shape of form in relation to Europe is ludicrous. It is a melting pot, it's just that the melting happened nearly 1-2000 years ago instead of in 2-300, as it did in America.

80 MandyManners  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:21:49pm

How about an open registration? My clue-bat is so ronery.

81 JeremyR  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:22:12pm

While I agree that we must be careful whom we choose for friends, if someone is willing to fight for our cause, even if they have questionable motives, I say by all means go ahead and fight.
I on the other hand will not support your cause simply because you fought for mine. After all, canon fodder is canon fodder, and I'd rather see the jack booted thugs die first.
On 9-12-01 even the most liberal of the dems in congress came together with patriots to denounce the acts of islamic terrorists. Glad they joined us, too bad they couldn't stay longer, but the smell oftheir politics was getting pretty steep.

82 Macker  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:22:15pm

re: #76 WriterMom

These threads are whacko flypaper...every nutter in Europe is going to be trying to get in.

Good, as long as registration isn't open we can sit back and watch. Please pass the popcorn please.

83 WhiteRasta  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:22:33pm

Good night and G-d Bless.

84 Idle Drifter  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:22:56pm

re: #77 WriterMom

GAAAAAAAAAAAA you are in my brain.

Usually, that's BabbaZee's thing.

Charles is the Master of Puppets!

85 Luigi  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:22:59pm

LGF is a centrist movement. Those who value democracy are centrists. Those who wish western civilization to survive are centrists.

86 Josephine  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:23:05pm

re: #75 Pater Coop

Wow. I do not have time to wade through that essay. Could someone please summarize Fjordman's position in 25 words or less?

My take on it is in #63.

87 Killian Bundy  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:23:16pm
The Norwegian blogger Øyvind Strømmen, a third-rate Islam apologist in the tradition of Karen Armstrong, has been repeatedly and enthusiastically linked to by LGF.

Again, got a linky for that?

/because you went off on another half dozen stream of consciousness gibberish filled paragraphs based on that original statement

88 Globular Cluster  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:23:25pm

re: #67 Charles

The four previous usernames of the now-banned 'jjdaniels':

Andrew_KJ
jasonkct
senor_lewie
jaxon

Yeah, I shoulda known by the vague odor in his post.

89 lawhawk  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:23:43pm

re: #74 Charles

These threads have a way of pulling them out of the woodwork.

Heh, go for the trifecta - throw together a posting that combined ID/evolution, abortion, and the VB gang. We could probably solve the planetary energy crisis with the amount of spontaneous combustion resulting. Of course, no one could probably approach that posting without asbestos gloves given the volatility as well.

On a more serious note, the fact that fjordman continues rambling on for 3600 words makes me wonder whether he's actually been paying attention to what you've been writing about of late or whether he was so busy writing that he couldn't be bothered. I sense that he simply had to vent about the latest perceived sleights, rather that address more substantive issues. Sad really.

90 Lively  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:24:19pm

re: #41 madmax517

Can't we all just get along? Hope! Change! and Evan Almighty is on HBO right now.

Did you mean BHO as in Barry?

91 JeremyR  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:24:56pm

re: #67 Charles

The four previous usernames of the now-banned 'jjdaniels':

Andrew_KJ
jasonkct
senor_lewie
jaxon

How did he get back in?

92 madisonsfriend  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:25:25pm

Saw a Ron Paul sign - a big one - braced on a truck along I-40 in Aberdeen, MD. I'm not drinking the water next time I go through there.

93 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:25:26pm
94 JeremyR  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:26:58pm

re: #75 Pater Coop

Wow. I do not have time to wade through that essay. Could someone please summarize Fjordman's position in 25 words or less?

Racism is ok by him as long as you hate Muslims. Its OK by him to hate Jews, Christians and anyone else as long as you also hate muslims.

95 christheprofessor  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:27:46pm

re: #92 madisonsfriend

Saw a Ron Paul sign - a big one - braced on a truck along I-40 in Aberdeen, MD. I'm not drinking the water next time I go through there.

It tastes like....kool aid.

96 gman  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:28:14pm
The state-sponsored organization Expo has been treated as a credible source of information by LGF regarding Swedish politics, and was on at least one occasion linked to approvingly.

Wtf?

LGF also linked to articles from all over the moonbatosphere, but the reason for linking is clear from the content of the post. I've read Fjordman's work in its full context and I have no doubt he's all about protecting the purity of the white race.

97 mikeinmd  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:28:24pm

re: #92 madisonsfriend

Saw a Ron Paul sign - a big one - braced on a truck along I-40 in Aberdeen, MD. I'm not drinking the water next time I go through there.

My SIL lives up there. I take my own air....

98 David IV of Georgia  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:28:38pm

I read the first couple of sentences before my conditioning set in...

I'm glad he's anti-jihad.
I'm glad he want to keep to the standards of European culture known to my ancestors.
White does not make it right, however.
Aryan blood does not make me an ubermensch.

99 PSGInfinity  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:29:43pm

re: #3 blue_like_jazz

ah, fjordman... we hardly knew ye.

i'm afraid that you will be found on the losing end of this issue.

Unless he's on the winning side, due to continued Europeon deterioration. :(

100 jaunte  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:30:12pm

Other than 'no jihadists,' what is the Fjordman vision for Europe?

Allan Bloom on Europe:

..."There the greatest events and the greatest men speak for monarchy and aristocracy as well as for democracy, for established religion as well as for tolerance, for patriotism that takes primacy over liberty, for privilege that takes primacy over equality of right. Belonging to one of those peoples may be explained as a sentiment, an attachment to one's own, akin to the attachment of father and mother, but Frenchness, Englishness, Germanness remain, nonetheless, ineffable.


[How much more so, this new corporate Europeanness. So is racial purity the only fallback position available because of a failure of imagination?]

Everybody can, however, articulate what Americanness is. and that Americanness generated a race of heroes-- Franklin, Washington, Hamilton, Jefferson, Lincoln and so on-- all of whom contributed to equality. Our imagination is not turned toward a Joan of Arc, a Louis XIV or a Napoleon who counterbalance our equivalent of 1789. Our heroes and the language of the Declaration contribute to a national reverence for our Constitution, also a unique phenomenon. all this is material for self consciousness and provides a superior moral significance to humdrum lives as well as something to study."

101 Killian Bundy  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:30:48pm

So, in a nutshell, Fjordmam and his pals are being bullied and Charles linked to two, count 'em two sources (no LGF links for this proposition provided) that Fjordmam considers to be from the dark side, you know his side. And then he babbles incoherently about it for a dozen or so paragraphs.

That's it.

/oh, and he invites all LGFers over to GOV next Wednesday for some good old fashioned Christian bashing

102 irish rose  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:31:53pm

*yawn*

103 Mich-again  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:32:33pm

The problem with writing essays that have no point is you can't tell when you're done.

104 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:33:44pm
105 nyc redneck  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:34:32pm

what does he want for europe and why does he think aligning w/ 'nazi' groups is the only way to achieve it?

106 David IV of Georgia  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:34:45pm

re: #103 Mich-again

The problem with writing essays that have no point is you can't tell when you're done.

You're done when the prof decides you get an A.

-former BS shoveler.

107 Alouette  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:35:19pm

re: #43 Killian Bundy

How about, if you want Fjordman to get to the [expletive deleted] point, press four?

/I can't figure what the hell he's trying to get at

Point? There's a point to get to? Enjoy the magnificent verbiage all around you!

He thinks he's Marcel Proust or somebody.

108 jaunte  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:38:11pm

re: #107 Alouette

Well that's some tjemps perdu I'm not going to get back.

109 gman  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:38:11pm

Here's a typical Fjordman rant about protecting the white race.

110 NY Nana  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:40:39pm

re: #62 nyc redneck

Re Eurabia? This was mentioned in a UK paper last week, IIRC, but I could not find it. I did find this, from last year. It is already happening. I fear that they waited to try and close the barn door long after the camels horses had escaped.

Between the EU and the Chunnel? I can remember when the UK put dogs in quarantine if they were brought from abroad, to prevent the entry of rabies into the island nation...now? I would love to see the Chunnel destroyed, and the UK out of the EU. Too damned late.

111 Lynn B.  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:40:42pm

Fjordman: it's all about him.

112 Opilio  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:40:45pm

It got dizzy by paragraph 9. It seemed like a verbal tilt-a-whirl, spinning in multiple directions at once and never getting anywhere.

113 Alouette  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:40:47pm

re: #108 jaunte

Well that's some tjemps perdu I'm not going to get back.

Why doesn't he just forget this blogging stuff and finish his novel? (It must be at 2500 pages and counting)

114 jaunte  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:43:13pm

re: #109 gman

From your link:

"I’m sure the British are told that they are swamped by immigration because they used to be a colonial power. But mass immigration to countries such as Norway, Sweden or Switzerland proves that this is not related to past colonial history, since we don’t have any. It is related to one, and only one thing: We are born white."


On the contrary, you live in a rich society that is welcoming immigrants with a social safety net, medical care, old age pensions, the dole, all free for non-workers. It's a no-brainer, and nothing to do with skin color.

115 David IV of Georgia  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:43:55pm

re: #113 Alouette

Why doesn't he just forget this blogging stuff and finish his novel? (It must be at 2500 pages and counting)

You make me want to link to this.

116 herekittykitty  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:43:56pm

It's like trying to get a bunch of kindergarteners to read and understand the Constitution. You people are hopeless.

117 Psaturn  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:44:07pm

re: #79 Globular Cluster

That was interesting Globular Cluster!

118 PSGInfinity  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:45:17pm

re: #3 blue_like_jazz

ah, fjordman... we hardly knew ye.

i'm afraid that you will be found on the losing end of this issue.

Unless he's on the winning side, due to continued Europeon deterioration. :(

It'd be a shame to have to make an alliance of necessity with the nasties. I watched the Sturm und Drang without commenting. My only coherent thought is that Europe didn't really work out the whole fascist/nationalist/patriotic thing after The War. It seems they opted to sweep the whole thing into a closet. And then they locked the closet and tried to forget.

But there is no true forgetting, not of tribal identity. We're all born tribalists. We formed a super-tribe called America, for example. Complete with shadowy sub-tribes: Methodists, technicians, Bostonians, etc. Under duress, European Tribal Identities will resurface. Many questions will arise, and be answered.

The ones that interest me:

Who defines the tribe?
Where do they stand on the 'Patriotic Continuum' (to coin a phrase)?
119 Killian Bundy  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:46:27pm

What's that smell?

/*sniff sniff*

120 gman  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:46:54pm

Here's another Fjordman article for those who don't already know about this moron.

121 EC Marm  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:46:56pm

re: #116 herekittykitty

It's like trying to get a bunch of kindergarteners to read and understand the Constitution. You people are hopeless.


Since you're new, I have to ask the question, which people?

122 susanl  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:46:57pm

If they can't figure out that it isn't about race, then there is no hope for them.

As far as I can tell, the conflict of out times is about freedom and the willingness to fight for it. Freedom for EVERYONE, not just the ones in your "group".

S

123 Opilio  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:47:04pm

re: #116 herekittykitty

You people are hopeless.

To whom do you refer?

124 NY Nana  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:47:08pm

re: #104 buzzsawmonkey

It would appear that Fjordman is kind of a Henry Fjord man when given the chance.

Great one, Buzz.

125 nyc redneck  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:47:25pm

re: #116 herekittykitty

It's like trying to get a bunch of kindergarteners to read and understand the Constitution. You people are hopeless.

who's hopeless?

126 Geepers  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:47:39pm
You people are hopeless.

Ah yes, the weary dismissal of the self-styled intellectual incapable of making a cogent argument to prove their point.

127 JeremyR  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:48:07pm

re: #116 herekittykitty

It's like trying to get a bunch of kindergarteners to read and understand the Constitution. You people are hopeless.

WHICH people?

128 jaunte  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:48:38pm

re: #116 herekittykitty

It's like trying to get a bunch of kindergarteners to read and understand the Constitution L. Ron Hubbard's "Battlefield Earth.". You people are hopeless.

129 nyc redneck  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:49:18pm

fjordman is hopeless to throw in w/ nazi's. he is with out hope.

130 formercorpsman  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:49:55pm

re: #92 madisonsfriend

Hey, your talking about Harford county, right?

131 Idle Drifter  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:50:00pm

re: #109 gman

Here's a typical Fjordman rant about protecting the white race.

Hork! Since when is that ever going to happen? Even if the gene was suppressed through genocide, breeding and gene therapy, it was a mutation that has a chance to occur again and again for the rest of humanity's time on this Earth.

132 gman  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:50:09pm

re: #116 herekittykitty

It's like trying to get a bunch of kindergarteners to read and understand the Constitution. You people are hopeless.

bad kitty, you get dry food tonight.

133 MandyManners  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:50:30pm

re: #116 herekittykitty

It's like trying to get a bunch of kindergarteners to read and understand the Constitution. You people are hopeless.

Exqueeze me?

134 christheprofessor  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:50:43pm

re: #132 gman

bad kitty, you get dry food tonight.

Is that what they call kitty litter now?

135 Globular Cluster  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:50:46pm

re: #117 Psaturn

That was interesting Globular Cluster!

Thanks. If you are interested in this kind of stuff, check out "Europe: A History" by Norman Davies.

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

Anyway, I'm off to Wendy's to get a hamburger.

136 PSGInfinity  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:51:01pm

re: #116 herekittykitty

It's like trying to get a bunch of kindergarteners to read and understand the Constitution. You people are hopeless.

?

137 WriterMom  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:51:11pm

SNEEEEF SNEEEEF

138 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:51:15pm

Dear Fjordman,

We have exchanged comments over the year. I think that you know quite well where I come from and that we have agreed on many things in the past and still agree on a lot.

If you will, permit me to be an honest broker here. The daughters of Europe are being raped on the streets of her cities. This inexcusable fact is the result of multi-kulti immigration that never required new immigrants to adhere to a social contract requiring immigrants to accept the organizing principles of their host society's rule of law.

We at LGF are no less outraged and concerned than you are about the direction Europe is going. I do not think you are a fascist and I do not think you want to live in anything other than a democracy. But the fact is there is a nebulous zone in the Euro anti-immigration movement which demonstrate all of the tendencies of protofascist anti democratic, even Nazi tendencies. It is not enough to be anti immigration. Most LGFers are pro-immigration, even pro Muslim immigration provided the immigrant comes with a loyalty to the host society and a genuine desire to live under the rule of law of their new home. Offering the benefits of citizenship to those who truly want to be part of building up their new homeland make economic and demographic sense.

It follows that Europe's leaders have completely screwed up by socially experimenting away the cultures and traditions that have made Europe a desirable place to live. It is also clear that the burden of immigration across Europe is at or near the point where things cannot continue. The leaders may not get it but the people do.

The current levels of immigration are not sustainable, legal or otherwise. So everything boils down to how will Europe handle this political crisis and that in turn focuses on WHO will handle it. Far right parties, openly fascist and otherwise seek to exploit voter anger for their own political gains. We at LGF see them as no less a threat to human liberty as the Islamists they seek to deport. There is good reason for this. Hitler was very much the product of a Thermidorian reaction to the communist; he exploited people's fear as the door to power. Hitler's intellectual and moral heirs, the BNP and their ilk seek to use Muslims as their passport to power.

As a Jew, I an not concerned about Europe's Jews, Israel and the world Jewish community can get our people out but we see these fascists exploiting fear and know these folks are no friends of ours. But we will no more stand aside and let Muslims be genocided than ourselves. As the first major victims of the worst the modern age can do, we have a moral obligation to prevent that from happening to others.

Europe is in danger. But the answer is democracy. There is a battle to be fought but it must be fought the right way with the right allies. If you really believe in Charles and the LGF community, this is the road. We will not break away from it. Trusting the crocodiles of the Euro-neonazis to eat us last is foolish and we won't do it. The answer lies getting existing Democratic right and centrist to take on the immigration issue. If you cannot subscribe to this, the most reasonable and safest course of action, go away and do not darken our door again. If you do adopt this as our common ground, you need only deal with the doubts you have created by your trying to get us to give up on our principles. We are not asking you to give up what you believe- only who your proposed partners.

The choice is simple, you can have the BNP and Vlaams or us. But you must make a clean break. Go with them or go with us; you cannot have it both ways.

Fascism in Europe has quietly smoldered for decades in post-war Europe. Hitler always did have an organic following. Today, his heirs see a chance to come back. We must and will prevent that from ever happening; the way to do so is keep them marginalized and at the periphery of European society.

Its up to you Fjordman. If Bush and McCain read one blog it is LGF. Are you with us or not?

139 Killian Bundy  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:51:27pm

Here kitty Kitty!

/*holding nail scissors behind back*

140 Sparkizzy  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:52:38pm

Sorry to go OT here, but can someone suggest a good book on JavaScript for beginners?

141 Alouette  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:52:42pm

re: #116 herekittykitty

I smell ozone!

142 PSGInfinity  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:52:48pm

re: #133 MandyManners

Exqueeze me?

OK (gives Mandy a naughty squeeze)
...But seriously, is that cluebat warmed up? I have a funny feeling it might get a workout tonight.

143 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:53:08pm

re: #2 Noam Sayin'

For the last time, Fjordman. Trim the posts down.

/didn't actually read it.

Hey, can someone trim it down to, oh, 50 words or so so I can read it? Spot read it, but couldn't get to the point so I stopped.

Does that make me A.D.D.?

144 Noam Sayin'  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:53:14pm

Shall I make popcorn?

Who's got a beer for your ol' pal, Noam? I've been on the road.

145 Alouette  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:53:16pm

re: #140 Sparkizzy

Sorry to go OT here, but can someone suggest a good book on JavaScript for beginners?

O'Reilly series.

146 FrogMarch  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:53:23pm
European fascist groups and their relatively slick modern incarnations


can you say: Modern American Progressive?

147 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:53:52pm

re: #100 jaunte

you understand the issue exactly

148 Sparkizzy  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:53:55pm

re: #138 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

Excellent post.

149 WriterMom  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:54:28pm

re: #144 Noam Sayin'

Shalom Noam.

150 Sour Grapes  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:54:59pm

Who is this Fjordman person? And why should I care about him?

151 Noam Sayin'  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:55:05pm

re: #143 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I suggested to him in a post long ago that he should look for someone who could edit his stuff.

Didn't realize at the time he was editing out the nationalist bile.

152 Josephine  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:55:29pm

Psycho Typer, qu'est-ce que c'est?

"You start a conversation you can't even finish it
You're talking a lot, but you're not saying anything
When I have nothing to say, my lips are sealed
Say something once, why say it again?"

153 BlueCanuck  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:56:00pm

re: #143 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Nah, that just means your bullshit filter was working over time.

154 Sparkizzy  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:57:05pm

re: #145 Alouette

O'Reilly series.

Well, the reviews for this book say it's not quite beginners material.

155 WriterMom  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:57:09pm

re: #152 Josephine

Psycho Typer, qu'est-ce que c'est?

fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa
ya better run run run oh run run run run awaaaaaaaaaaaaaay
oh oh oh ooooooooh
ayyyay yayayayayaaaaaay

156 Noam Sayin'  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:57:17pm

re: #149 WriterMom

Shalom Noam.

Shalom, Writermom.

157 christheprofessor  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:57:19pm

re: #138 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

Stellar post #1,726,987,736,729,623,190 in a row, it seems....

158 Opilio  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:58:21pm

If Charles is watching and inclined to answer...

Why does clicking on herekittykitty's user profile show 22 comments posted, but this LGF search for herekittykitty's comments only yields one.

/I have only come here seeking knowledge

159 experiencedtraveller  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:59:25pm

re: #150 Sour Grapes

Who is this Fjordman person? And why should I care about him?

Do your homework although you may find the required reading a tad verbose.

;)

160 PSGInfinity  Sun, May 11, 2008 6:59:44pm

re: #150 Sour Grapes

Who is this Fjordman person? And why should I care about him?

A loquacious fellow traveler who's made a fateful choice.

You may notice I'm not piling on; I think LGF's done a fine job of that already. I'm just wondering if blow torching tailfeathers is such a good idea, this early in the game. We may need to make a disturbing accommodation with Fjordman and his ilk before this is over.

This is a bad situation, and it'll get worse before it gets better.

161 Charles  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:00:47pm

Just received from the forum manager at British Nationalist Forum, who's apparently watching his referrer logs closely:

Just to clarify? Fjorman has nothing to do with the British Nationalist Forum microbanner in the Brussel's Journal sidebar. It is an automated blogad, much like Google Adsense. I think the writer owes Fjordman a public apology. Also, though a pro-Nationalist message board; we are actually officially proscribed and shunned by the BNP and its loyalist faction, because we allow free and unfettered debate even when the conversation may be unflattering to Mr. Griffin himself. Also, we have Jewish members, and are far too restrictive for the tastes of the average racist and nutzo. Come on over. We'd be happy to debate you leftsts anytime.

Some of their best friends are Jews! Come on over!

162 DesertSage  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:01:18pm

re: #158 Opilio

If Charles is watching and inclined to answer...

Why does clicking on herekittykitty's user profile show 22 comments posted, but this LGF search for herekittykitty's comments only yields one.

/I have only come here seeking knowledge

That's because the "search range" for the LGF search is limited. You need to expand the search range to encompass LGF in its entirety to find all 22 comments.

163 theparson  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:01:37pm

I don't know who this Fjordman guy is but I don't trust anybody who's name starts with two consonants. My spell checker doesn't like it either.

164 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:02:29pm
165 jaunte  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:02:48pm

re: #161 Charles

Leftists?

166 experiencedtraveller  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:03:10pm

What the hell is a leftsts?

167 BlueCanuck  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:03:20pm

re: #161 Charles

We're leftists? WTF, and I just had my apartment redone in NRA styling too.

/going to have to check their dictionary definition.

168 DesertSage  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:03:46pm

re: #164 savage_nation

Leftists?

169 PSGInfinity  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:03:48pm

re: #163 theparson

I don't know who this Fjordman guy is but I don't trust anybody who's name starts with two consonants. My spell checker doesn't like it either.

Current spell checker's don't learn heuristically; you can usually add a word to a custom dictionary the app stores...

170 Killian Bundy  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:04:10pm

re: #166 experiencedtraveller

What the hell is a leftsts?

/anyone to the right of Himmler

171 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:04:10pm

re: #138 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

Thanks. Please do not seek an editor. I make a point to read every word you write (with the exception of things that you write that I do not see).

You make me smarter. Thanks again.

172 Alouette  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:04:21pm

re: #154 Sparkizzy

Well, the reviews for this book say it's not quite beginners material.

OMG, that book is the BEST! But what can I say, I've been javascripting professionally for 10 years. There are websites that have code tutorials for beginners.

173 Geepers  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:04:21pm

Did we just get called "leftists"?

174 MandyManners  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:04:35pm

re: #161 Charles

We'd be happy to debate you leftsts anytime.

*WHACK*

175 Killian Bundy  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:04:48pm

re: #170 Killian Bundy

/anyone to the right of Himmler

/left

176 WriterMom  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:05:05pm

re: #161 Charles

we have Jewish members

OY VEY

177 MandyManners  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:05:07pm

re: #173 Geepers

Did we just get called "leftists"?

No. "Leftsts."

178 Zach_the_Lizard  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:05:14pm

re: #173 Geepers

Did we just get called "leftists"?

Oh yes we did.

Hoist the red flag, comrade, let's get collective!

179 MandyManners  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:05:21pm

I'd like to buy a vowel!

180 DesertSage  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:05:34pm

re: #170 Killian Bundy

/anyone to the right of Himmler

Actually, Himmler and the rest of those Nazis started out as good little Leftists.

181 jaunte  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:05:35pm

re: #177 MandyManners

Tjrotskyites!

182 Geepers  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:05:46pm

Fat Bastard Vegetarian (#171),

You should hang out drinking with him all night, it's a trip.

183 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:05:57pm
184 MandyManners  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:05:59pm

re: #181 jaunte

Tjrotskyites!

LOL!

185 WriterMom  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:06:03pm

re: #179 MandyManners

Left testes?

186 nyc redneck  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:06:09pm

re: #138 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

i hope you teach at a university. gosh, they need you.

187 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:06:29pm

re: #168 DesertSage

Leftists?

Left side of the Atlantic facing north?

188 christheprofessor  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:06:32pm

I'm so far left, I'm right...

/well, y'all know what I mean...

189 DesertSage  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:06:37pm

Lefty Just Wants Free Stuff!

190 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:06:40pm
191 theparson  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:06:45pm

OH, crap! Mr. Holland's Opus is on and I'm missing it! Dang it! And it's such a heart warming story.

192 Albertanator  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:06:46pm

Friends on all sides...please Charles and Fjord I think we all need to do some compromising...we have a horrific foe.......Islam....

Let's humble ourselves a bit on both sides.....A house divided is never a good thing!

193 Geepers  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:06:51pm

Zach_the_Lizard (#178),

Hoist the red flag, comrade, let's get collective!

LOL.

194 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:06:53pm
195 BlueCanuck  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:07:01pm

re: #185 WriterMom

Don't go there, we had enough of that type of thread weeks ago. :)

196 formercorpsman  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:07:11pm

re: #173 Geepers

Oh yeah, we'll who could blame him?

Left is right, up is down, black is white.

News to you Geep.

197 MandyManners  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:07:35pm

re: #185 WriterMom

Left testes?

He ain't got none.

198 NY Nana  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:07:36pm

re: #161 Charles

Just received from the forum manager at British Nationalist Forum, who's apparently watching his referrer logs closely:


Some of their best friends are Jews! Come on over!

/Don't look at me! I am Jewish, and wouldn't touch them with a barge pole. Some of their best friends....hmmm, NK, Norman Finkelstein, Noam Chumpsky..I know I am leaving some names out...any suggestions, lizards?

199 Jimmah  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:07:37pm

re: #160 PSGInfinity

We may need to make a disturbing accommodation with Fjordman and his ilk before this is over.

I can't see any scenario in which skinhead power would be needed to save the day. I can imagine many in which the kind of 'accomodation' you refer to could be absolutely ruinous.

200 PSGInfinity  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:07:47pm

re: #173 Geepers

Did we just get called "leftists"?

By whom? Fjordman? Fred Thompson? John McCain? Hillary Clinton? Michael Moore?

201 formercorpsman  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:07:53pm

re: #179 MandyManners

Mandy, that was good.

202 BlueCanuck  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:08:53pm

re: #192 Albertanator

Yeah but you don't invite the non house trained dog up on the furniture. Some of those WN wingnuts are not even a proper ally for anybody. A thug is a thug is a thug.

203 Psaturn  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:09:01pm

Since Nazism is de rigeur in discussion...I was reading an interesting article on the religion of Nazism (a somewhat old Pagan, and yet modern version of Paganism...

[Link: koenraadelst.bharatvani.org...]

204 PSGInfinity  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:09:02pm

re: #199 Jimmah

I can't see any scenario in which skinhead power would be needed to save the day. I can imagine many in which the kind of 'accomodation' you refer to could be absolutely ruinous.

So can't I and can I ... now. Ten - fifteen years from now...

205 Geepers  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:09:05pm

PSGInfinity (#200)

See #161.

206 David IV of Georgia  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:09:05pm

I'm so conservative I get annoyed that the Gauls, Vandals, and Visigoths disturbed the Pax Romana. Left? Did I leave something?

207 Opilio  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:09:21pm

re: #162 DesertSage

That's because the "search range" for the LGF search is limited. You need to expand the search range to encompass LGF in its entirety to find all 22 comments.

The search I used had the date range set to April 10, 2007 - May 11, 2008.   herekittykitty didn't register until April 14, 2007.

I remain perplexed.

208 stevieray  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:09:23pm

re: #138 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

The so-called intellectuals of Europe have run the continent for two generations now, and have destroyed the cultural underpinnings of their societies -- the better to replace them with something enlightened and egalitarian -- and the odds of the common folk reclaiming their heritages is slim.

Europe is probably beyond hope. It is dying, and its corpse will serve as a host organism for dozens of different socio-political pathogens... diseases our own "intellectuals" will slavishly adore and emulate in the coming decades.

Fjordman is wrong in his allies, but he is right in his rage. The establishment lies are thick and deep, and most of the elites cannot be considered friendly to the natives anymore. I hope he realizes the errors he made in joining forces with the neo-Fascists, and rejoins the good guys. Properly channeled, he could do alot of good.

209 theparson  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:09:55pm

Anybody else getting weird stuff on their Firefox? I had to switch back to Safari.

210 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:10:08pm

re: #182 Geepers

Fat Bastard Vegetarian (#171),

You should hang out drinking with him all night, it's a trip.

It would be fun, but he would get as much stimulation talking to Rainman as me. But I do know some funny jokes.

211 MandyManners  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:10:26pm

re: #190 ploome hineni

re: #201 formercorpsman

8-)

212 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:10:36pm
213 theparson  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:11:34pm

re: #212 savage_nation

What weird stuff? I use FF and my browser is fine.

Showing the same number comment two or three times and boxes are collapsed.

214 Zach_the_Lizard  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:11:53pm

re: #209 theparson

Anybody else getting weird stuff on their Firefox? I had to switch back to Safari.

I report no strange-ness here, and I am using the latest nightly build of Firefox 3.

215 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:12:22pm
216 Opilio  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:12:32pm

re: #163 theparson

I don't know who this Fjordman guy is but I don't trust anybody who's name starts with two consonants. My spell checker doesn't like it either.

Um. Mr. Parson, sir,...   your name starts with two consonants. Nevertheless, you must learn to trust yourself.

217 PSGInfinity  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:12:51pm

re: #205 Geepers

PSGInfinity (#200)

See #161.

Thanks, Geepers, I suspected that was it. I saw it as Standard Self-Defending Denunciation (SSDD)...

218 jainphx  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:13:13pm

The enemy of my enemy doesn't always apply, especially when you have to be allied with a racists. When the fighting is done you just have to turn and fight in the other direction, better to fight alone.

219 Jimmah  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:13:48pm

re: #204 PSGInfinity

So can't I and can I ... now. Ten - fifteen years from now...

Might as well say the same thing about the Islamists, no?

Fuck 'em.

220 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:13:48pm

BTW...Happy Mother's Day Mandy. (i remember how well you enjoyed all the hubbub about your (55th?) birthday this week).

221 DesertSage  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:13:49pm

re: #207 Opilio

The search I used had the date range set to April 10, 2007 - May 11, 2008. %u2002 herekittykitty didn't register until April 14, 2007.

I remain perplexed.

From what I can gather, the LGF search engine will only let you search in one month increments.
If that's incorrect, then I must differ to a higher power.

222 theparson  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:14:09pm

Firefox version 2.0.0.14 for Mac

223 Arbalest  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:14:09pm

I tried reading Fjordman’s stuff . . .

Fjordman, if you’re reading this thread, #138 Ayatollah Ghilmeini has it right. Heed his words.

Rather than continuing to attack LGF, you need to get the message: you and your compatriots need to get certain bloggers and blogs, and the various European political parties to lose (and be seen to publicly lose) all connections to the various neo-Nazi, fascist, extremist groups.

This has to be a real purge, not some publicity stunt.

The neo-Nazis, fascist, and similar groups do not share all Western values, and will eventually stab Europe in the back, figuratively if not literally.

A lot of non-Western cultures are buying off on certain Western values, like “all men are created equal”, “racism (judging others by skin color, etc.) is wrong”, “slavery is illegal and immoral”, and a few others.

At a minimum these values have made the world a very much better and safer place. Why go back to the way things had been? Why allow anyone to screw up a good thing?


Politics is frequently described as a pendulum. It looks like Europe is waking up to a few threats.

Keep the neo-Nazis, and Europe will see a problem it’s already seen; it was the wrong direction 70 years ago, no need to make this mistake again. The pendulum will likely complete its swing and start back the other way. Europe will likely re-live a previous nightmare or two.

Lose the neo-Nazis, and the pendulum might swing far enough to clean up the welfare disaster that plagues Europe. Tired of able-bodied men on the dole? The claim that workers need to be imported to jobs that Europeans (or Americans) won’t do is a myth. Now is the chance to cleanup various legal loop-holes.

Lose the neo-Nazis and other problems, and it’s likely that very many moderate Europeans will support you and your political party / parties. The talk about genocide and other such nonsense can then be sent back to the writers of alternate-reality comic books, for use as the next plot line for sullen teenaged Cheeto-heads.


You and your compatriots can waste more of your time and energy trying to undermine others who oppose the same threat you oppose, and damaging yourself and others in the process, or you can clean your house, and then get back to solving real problems and fighting real threats.

The ball is in your court; the move is yours.

224 theparson  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:16:25pm

re: #216 Opilio

Um. Mr. Parson, sir,... %u2002 your name starts with two consonants. Nevertheless, you must learn to trust yourself.

As we say in Texas, awe contraire (little Texan lingo for ya), my nom de plume starts with two consonants. My name has a consonant followed by a vowel (David). My spell checker likes my name!

225 Mich-again  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:17:03pm

re: #114 jaunte

On the contrary, you live in a rich society that is welcoming immigrants with a social safety net, medical care, old age pensions, the dole, all free for non-workers. It's a no-brainer, and nothing to do with skin color.

You always get more of whatever you subsidize.

226 PSGInfinity  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:18:05pm

re: #218 jainphx

The enemy of my enemy doesn't always apply, especially when you have to be allied with a racists. When the fighting is done you just have to turn and fight in the other direction, better to fight alone.

We can believe that, with all our hearts, now. My point is that if we irreparably breach our relationships now, we'll not be able to repair them if we really need them later.

227 Mich-again  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:18:34pm

re: #220 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

BTW...Happy Mother's Day Mandy. (i remember how well you enjoyed all the hubbub about your (55th?) birthday this week).

Oh you're liable to get a chair thrown at you for that one! Never guess a woman's age.

228 Quilly Mammoth  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:19:33pm

Actually Fjordman and the other frogs have fallen for the reasoning of the scorpion. "Why would I sting you?".

In the older version of the parable the scorpion stings the frog just as journey ends and the scorpion can scurry to shore. When they find their rights taken by the latest infestation of European Fascism what will they say then? "At least we beat the Islamo-nazis"?

Sore solace, that.

229 jaunte  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:19:35pm

re: #225 Mich-again

From Houston, I must say, si, you are correcto.

230 Killian Bundy  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:19:55pm

Damn troll commented and ran.

/now what?

231 MandyManners  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:20:29pm

re: #220 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

BTW...Happy Mother's Day Mandy. (i remember how well you enjoyed all the hubbub about your (55th?) birthday this week).

TTTHHHHPPPPPPPPPPPPPTTTTTTTTTTTTTT.

(It was my 40,000th brithday.)

232 beachkatie  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:20:31pm

Were is kitty,kitty?You guys done wacked it?

233 JeremyR  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:21:31pm

re: #192 Albertanator

Friends on all sides...please Charles and Fjord I think we all need to do some compromising...we have a horrific foe.......Islam....

Let's humble ourselves a bit on both sides.....A house divided is never a good thing!

That sort of council was given to Chang Ki Chek in China in the 1930's. Look what happened to him and China.
Bad alliances also fail among the opressive types. Look how Russia fared when they tried to be friends with Hitler.

234 Jimmah  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:21:33pm

re: #226 PSGInfinity

I guess by a similar token we should also be nice to the Islamists today in case we ever need them against the extreme right in some future as yet unforseen scenario?

235 Noam Sayin'  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:22:30pm

re: #230 Killian Bundy

Damn troll commented and ran.

/now what?

If someone is an asshole, let it be free.

If it comes back, smack it with a clue bat.

236 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:23:04pm
237 PSGInfinity  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:23:13pm

re: #219 Jimmah

Might as well say the same thing about the Islamists, no?

Fuck 'em.

Aye, Jimmah, there's the rub: are fascistic Euro's really equal to, or even worse than, Islamic barbarians? Right now, the answer seems to be either A) Yes or B) We don't want to take the chance.
Q: What if the answer is C) No?

238 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:23:21pm

re: #161 Charles

It is an automated blogad, much like Google Adsense.


Uh, not really that ad has been on Brussels Journal for months. It's not a random rotating ad. It's always the same and never changes. It's an intentionally placed ad.

239 JeremyR  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:23:22pm

re: #220 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

BTW...Happy Mother's Day Mandy. (i remember how well you enjoyed all the hubbub about your (55th?) birthday this week).

Thats mean. Even I wouldn't stoop to that level.

Ducks under desk.....

240 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:23:36pm

re: #231 MandyManners

TTTHHHHPPPPPPPPPPPPPTTTTTTTTTTTTTT.

(It was my 40,000th brithday.)

Quack......TeeHee...Diarrhea
Ducks......Giggles......Runs.

241 Mich-again  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:23:56pm

re: #226 PSGInfinity

My point is that if we irreparably breach our relationships now, we'll not be able to repair them if we really need them later.

I disagree. Its like trying to tread water holding onto a cinder block in case you need it later.

242 Opilio  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:24:36pm

re: #224 theparson

As we say in Texas, awe contraire (little Texan lingo for ya), my nom de plume starts with two consonants. My name has a consonant followed by a vowel (David). My spell checker likes my name!

Ah. I had assumed we were talking noms de guerre, since that what I believe fjordman is (the name, not the individual).

/BTW, that is an exceptionally fine name you got there. Truly outstanding, second to none.

243 MrArchieBunker  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:25:15pm

European center/rightists desperately need a Wm. F. Buckley type figure who can purge fringe elements and build a successful modern conservative movement (emphasis on modern).

244 jainphx  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:25:56pm

re: #226 PSGInfinity

You have to remember what happened after the fighting stopped in Europe, Russia became our worst enemy even after we gave them all the arms to defeat the Nazi's. Look at where were at to this day.

245 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:26:28pm

re: #243 MrArchieBunker

Buckley's work is coming undone.

246 nyc redneck  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:26:40pm

re: #192 Albertanator

Friends on all sides...please Charles and Fjord I think we all need to do some compromising...we have a horrific foe.......Islam....

Let's humble ourselves a bit on both sides.....A house divided is never a good thing!

how do you suggest we compromise? i'd like to know. i do agree we have a horrific foe. . . islam.

247 JeremyR  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:26:42pm

re: #231 MandyManners

(It was my 40,000th brithday.)

So, tells us about the epic battle between Cromagnon and Neanderthals.

LOL

248 MrArchieBunker  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:27:27pm

re: #245 Killgore Trout

It sure is, and at lightning speed...

249 gman  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:28:08pm

re: #237 PSGInfinity

Aye, Jimmah, there's the rub: are fascistic Euro's really equal to, or even worse than, Islamic barbarians? Right now, the answer seems to be either A) Yes or B) We don't want to take the chance.
Q: What if the answer is C) No?

both bad and I don't want to take out a ruler to measure which one is more bad than the other.

We don't need either of them.

250 jainphx  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:28:16pm

re: #231 MandyManners

I'd be willing to bet your---lets see---27.

251 theparson  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:28:27pm

re: #242 Opilio

"theparson" tis my pen name (nom de plume). David is my nom de my momma (as, I assume, yours to be).

252 christheprofessor  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:28:50pm

re: #244 jainphx

We gave them a lot, no doubt, but their production was tremendous as well. We didn't give them the T-34s, nor did we give them the majority of their airpower...

253 OldLineTexan  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:28:54pm

re: #250 jainphx

I'd be willing to bet your---lets see---27.

suck-up

254 Jimmah  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:29:06pm

re: #237 PSGInfinity

Aye, Jimmah, there's the rub: are fascistic Euro's really equal to, or even worse than, Islamic barbarians? Right now, the answer seems to be either A) Yes or B) We don't want to take the chance.
Q: What if the answer is C) No?

The answer, is A. See WW2 for details.

255 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:29:21pm
256 rawmuse  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:29:26pm

OK, I read it. Now, what? Total waste of brain power.

257 BlueCanuck  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:29:28pm

re: #250 jainphx

I'd be willing to bet your---lets see---27.

Nope I have it on good authority that Mandy is 32. . . . . and holding.


/what my mom always says.

258 3 wood  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:29:31pm

Hey Fjordman, I read your nearly endless essay. You took all that space to say that you really don't mind collaborating with neo-nazis.

Guess what? We already knew that.

Next time, just get to the point already.

259 rawmuse  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:29:50pm

re: #245 Killgore Trout

Buckley's work is coming undone.

By whom?

260 PSGInfinity  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:30:08pm

re: #234 Jimmah

I guess by a similar token we should also be nice to the Islamists today in case we ever need them against the extreme right in some future as yet unforseen scenario?

We've seen that line of reasoning from the Left. As for the Right, it comes down to both the question I asked in #237, and
D) Whether we can persuade the errant to adopt our assertive, nationalistic, democratic ideals?

261 Opilio  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:31:39pm

re: #251 theparson

"theparson" tis my pen name (nom de plume). David is my nom de my momma (as, I assume, yours to be).

Indeed. A fine name, that. And one which peaked in popularity in the 50's and 60's.

262 Globular Cluster  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:31:46pm

Nazism was actually Leftist, not Rightist.

Discuss.

263 MrArchieBunker  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:32:00pm

re: #259 rawmuse

Well, by men like Tom Delay, Dennis Hastert and Jack Abramoff for starters

264 PSGInfinity  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:33:10pm

re: #244 jainphx

You have to remember what happened after the fighting stopped in Europe, Russia became our worst enemy even after we gave them all the arms to defeat the Nazi's. Look at where were at to this day.

A freed Eastern Europe without a major hot war with the Russkies sounds better than a psycho Hitler to me. We made a deal with a demon to beat a worse demon.
Welcome to the big leagues.

265 theparson  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:33:19pm

re: #261 Opilio

And now you try to date me? I mean date me not... you know... date me.

266 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:33:25pm

re: #261 Opilio

Indeed. A fine name, that. And one which peaked in popularity in the 50's and 60's.

Emily and Jacob the most popular name in the past ten years. (Heard that somewhere on the news yesterday, don't know why I recall it.)

267 rawmuse  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:33:32pm

re: #263 MrArchieBunker

Well, by men like Tom Delay, Dennis Hastert and Jack Abramoff for starters

They are scarcely adherents of the creed of Mr. Buckley, you must admit.

268 David IV of Georgia  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:33:44pm

re: #224 theparson

Um. Mr. Parson, sir,... %u2002 your name starts with two consonants. Nevertheless, you must learn to trust yourself.
As we say in Texas, awe contraire (little Texan lingo for ya), my nom de plume starts with two consonants. My name has a consonant followed by a vowel (David). My spell checker likes my name!

Saul killed his thousands, and David killed his ten thousands.

269 Noam Sayin'  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:33:53pm

What's the over/under on Mandy's age?

I'm thinking mid-30s, with dynamite legs and a smokin' bod. She's just got that kind of sexy going on.

Was that out loud?

270 DesertSage  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:34:20pm

re: #262 Globular Cluster

Nazism was actually Leftist, not Rightist.

Discuss.

I think that's been pretty well established, GC.

271 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:34:21pm

Socialism > Oppression > Fascism > Hate > Genocide > Misery

Freedom/Liberty > Equality > Respect > Prosperity

/get a clue, Fjordman

272 gman  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:34:52pm

re: #258 3 wood

Hey Fjordman, I read your nearly endless essay. You took all that space to say that you really don't mind collaborating with neo-nazis.

Guess what? We already knew that.

Next time, just get to the point already.

ethno- nationalists aka racialists aka racists write some of the most long- winded essays I have ever seen. I'm not a psychologist but I do believe there is a little self- guilt going on behind the scenes. It could also be the equivalent of Islamic Dawah. The racist is trying to sweet talk you to their point of view.

273 theparson  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:34:52pm

re: #262 Globular Cluster

Nazism was actually Leftist, not Rightist.

Discuss.

Possibly

274 jainphx  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:35:04pm

re: #252 christheprofessor

Your right, but how many Merchant Marines and ships were lost on the Murmansk runs. we did as much or more for them than we did for Britain. The racists will always turn on you .

275 PSGInfinity  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:35:14pm

re: #249 gman

both bad and I don't want to take out a ruler to measure which one is more bad than the other.

We don't need either of them.

That's fine, for now. We could well face a forced choice in 10-15 years, however...

276 rawmuse  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:35:16pm

re: #262 Globular Cluster

Nazism was actually Leftist, not Rightist.

Discuss.

Overall, it was Authoritarian, and that is a place you can arrive at from either direction.

277 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:35:29pm

re: #267 rawmuse

They are scarcely adherents of the creed of Mr. Buckley, you must admit.

Hey Raw, when I read your comments, I hear them in my brain with Pierce Brosnan's voice. Just noticed.

278 jainphx  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:36:29pm

re: #264 PSGInfinity

Yes , but you will end up fighting them when they turn on you, and they always will.

279 rawmuse  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:36:33pm

re: #277 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You're welcome!

280 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:36:37pm

re: #269 Noam Sayin'

Yep.

281 Mich-again  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:37:33pm

re: #262 Globular Cluster

Nazism was actually Leftist, not Rightist.

If you take it far enough the radical left coincides with the radical right.

282 DesertSage  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:37:34pm

re: #277 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hey Raw, when I read your comments, I hear them in my brain with Pierce Brosnan's voice. Just noticed.

Hey, that's pretty good. Who's voice do you hear when Noam comments?

283 MrArchieBunker  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:37:44pm

re: #267 rawmuse

A fair point to be sure, but these men (and others) have all but destroyed the Republican brand if you will. A brand that Mr. Buckley successfully resuscitated.

284 jaunte  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:37:52pm

re: #262 Globular Cluster

Leftist identifiers:
-Nazism was a popular movement that crossed over all the class and regional lines.
-The Nazis portrayed themselves as the party of national pride, and claimed to stand up for the 'little guy', especially the worker.
-Many of them endorsed a cultural relativism that identified truth or falsehood, right or wrong, as depending on one's ethnic origin.

285 theparson  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:37:52pm

re: #262 Globular Cluster

Nazism was actually Leftist, not Rightist.

Discuss.

Maybe not

286 jainphx  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:38:08pm

re: #255 savage_nation

Now thats what I call a friend.

287 ggt  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:38:29pm

Good Evening all!

I'm tired of Fjordman. I"m also tired of Jimmah.

It sucks that they keep asserting themselves and have to be dealt with.

288 OldLineTexan  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:38:37pm

re: #281 Mich-again

If you take it far enough the radical left coincides with the radical right.

It's a Circle of Government kind of thing.

289 christheprofessor  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:38:54pm

re: #274 jainphx

Your right, but how many Merchant Marines and ships were lost on the Murmansk runs. we did as much or more for them than we did for Britain. The racists will always turn on you .

The Russians were fascists, just as the Nazis. Race was secondary.

Hence the unwillingness to make the deal with the devil today...

290 PSGInfinity  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:39:07pm

re: #254 Jimmah

The answer, is A. See WW2 for details.

That generation was decimated in the war. Subsequent generations have shown nothing like the same fiery nature, or ruthlessness. Jimmah, you're correct in pointing out the Euros of the past were the nastiest MoFo's on the planet. My counterpoint is that I no longer believe that's the case.

291 Globular Cluster  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:39:13pm

re: #270 DesertSage

I think that's been pretty well established, GC.

The British Nationalists just called LGF readers "Leftist". Apparently they don't think it's been well established....

292 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:39:54pm
293 rawmuse  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:40:12pm

re: #283 MrArchieBunker

True, it is a setback. Things will have to get worse before they can get better, methinks. Still, I do not consider Mr. Buckley's work to be the less on account of the small men who borrowed his pajamas for a bit.

294 nyc redneck  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:40:54pm

i resent being called a leftist. how absurd,

295 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:41:02pm

re: #282 DesertSage

It's because of the avatar that I hear PB for Raw.

So, you guessed it. Noam sounds like a cartoon rodent (think chipmonk, etc.).

Mandy? You guessed it. Sam Kinison.

296 jainphx  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:41:31pm

re: #289 christheprofessor

There I agree.

297 PSGInfinity  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:41:36pm

re: #278 jainphx

Yes , but you will end up fighting them when they turn on you, and they always will.

I understand your point, but that sounds a bit like worrying about the second or third team you'll play in the playoffs, taking your eye off the current opponent...

298 Slumbering Behemoth  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:41:47pm

:sigh: Fine, fine. Go ahead and side with the fascists in the struggle against, well, um, other fascists. Just don't expect me to come along for that love fest.

Also, please keep in mind that when the inevitable happens, and you come limping back, don't be surprised if you find that the mat beneath my front door reads: Fuck Off!

299 jaunte  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:42:01pm

In 1926, Stalin and Bukharin began a campaign against "Trotskyism."
Trotsky was a leftist. I suppose this makes Fjordman a Stalinist.

300 DesertSage  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:42:03pm

re: #285 theparson

You're relying on Wikipedia to give you the answer?

Nazism was a Leftist/totalitarian ideology. It was an offshoot of Marxism, originally known as a "Third Way" ideology....much the same as Fascism was a Third Way ideology.

301 Mich-again  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:42:40pm

re: #288 OldLineTexan

Is there much difference in the message from Ron Paul and Dennis Kuchinich?

302 MandyManners  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:43:29pm

re: #298 Slumbering Behemoth

:sigh: Fine, fine. Go ahead and side with the fascists in the struggle against, well, um, other fascists. Just don't expect me to come along for that love fest.

Also, please keep in mind that when the inevitable happens, and you come limping back, don't be surprised if you find that the mat beneath my front door reads: Fuck Off!

I don't think he will be back.

303 rawmuse  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:43:37pm

re: #301 Mich-again

On all things yes, except the current war.

304 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:43:41pm

re: #299 jaunte

Embrace Fjordmanism!

305 JeremyR  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:43:51pm

re: #285 theparson

Maybe not

You can arrive at it either way. Nazi stands for nationalist Socialist. Democrats are Socialist but not nationalist. Republicans are Nationalist but not socialist. So what it takes is for a democrat to sprout balls, or a republican to lose his brains.

306 Opilio  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:44:17pm

re: #265 theparson

And now you try to date me? I mean date me not... you know... date me.

Not at all. I freely admit that I was born in the waning days of the Eisenhower presidency. In the year of my birth, the top ten U.S. baby names were:

Michael   Mary
David    Susan
James   Linda
John     Karen
Robert   Donna

In 2007:

Jacob    Emily
Michael   Isabella
Ethan    Emma
Joshua   Ava
Daniel    Madison

307 jaunte  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:44:26pm

re: #304 Kreuzueber Halbmond

Djrink!

308 jainphx  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:44:35pm

re: #297 PSGInfinity

There is some truth in that, but I'm still not up to making someone that I know is just using me, a friend.

309 DesertSage  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:44:36pm

re: #301 Mich-again

Is there much difference in the message from Ron Paul and Dennis Kuchinich?

The biggest difference is that Kucinich wants to give people free stuff and RP doesn't.

310 MrArchieBunker  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:44:36pm

re: #293 rawmuse

"Still, I do not consider Mr. Buckley's work to be the less on account of the small men who borrowed his pajamas for a bit." Great turn of a phrase! Re. Fjordman, I tuned him out a long time ago. I have a genetic prejudice toward people who talk or write a lot and say little or nothing.

311 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:45:42pm

Cripes on a freakin' crutch!

OK, so on Yahoo's main news page, here's the Headline

"Young Evangelicals are leaving the GOP".

Okay, got it.

Source.

H.U.F.F.I.N.G.T.O.N P.O.S.T.

312 A Kiwi Infidel  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:45:57pm

re: #287 ggt

Good Evening all!

I'm tired of Fjordman. I"m also tired of Jimmah.

It sucks that they keep asserting themselves and have to be dealt with.

Now, aint that the twoof?

313 guftafs  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:45:57pm

It is well-known in Sweden that Hübinette referred to by Fjordman is seriously disturbed person. The claim that he co-founded the magazine Expo and was its chief editor is, according to former top member of Sverigedemokraterna, Tommy Funebo, Hübinette's own CV. This has also, according to Funebo, been denied several times by Expo. Question is how much credibility you should lend a man with serious psychological problems.

Fjordman's mantra that Expo is a state-sponsored organization is true, sort of. Also according to Funebo, Expo received 175,000 SEK this year from the State's Cultural Board (Statens kulturråd). In that sense, you could also claim that Sverigedemokraterna, who for the period 2006-2010 will receive 50,000,000 SEK in grants at the state and municipal level, to be state-sponsored. In fact, most things are state-sponsored in Sweden.

314 rawmuse  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:46:02pm

I was once asked to describe myself in 25 words or less. My response:
"Concise".

315 PSGInfinity  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:46:10pm

re: #241 Mich-again

I disagree. Its like trying to tread water holding onto a cinder block in case you need it later.

Ah, that's the essential point, my friend: How do we keep them at arm's length, show them the errors of their ways, rehabilitate them so that we CAN embrace them when the chips are down?

316 ggt  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:46:23pm

re: #300 DesertSage

I think this was all discussed on the Liberal Fascism by Jonah Goldberg threads of weeks ago. Progressive ideologies are movements of the left. Another great book I would not have read if not for LGF.

317 OldLineTexan  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:46:26pm

re: #301 Mich-again

Is there much difference in the message from Ron Paul and Dennis Kuchinich?

You have to understand that I completely believe that the "political spectrum" is a serpent with its tails in its mouth.

Meanwhile, Kookcinich and Luap Nor differ IMO only in the degree of insanity. But I do not get further than their Surrender Now policies before I cease listening.

/as a resident of the Houston area, I am all-too familiar with Luap Nor

318 JeremyR  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:46:41pm

re: #305 JeremyR

You can arrive at it either way. Nazi stands for nationalist Socialist. Democrats are Socialist but not nationalist. Republicans are Nationalist but not socialist. So what it takes is for a democrat to sprout balls, or a republican to lose his brains.

Lets make that a spine instead of balls.

319 DesertSage  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:46:48pm

re: #311 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

It's in the spinoff links.

320 mitthrawnurdo  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:46:49pm

re: #311 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You doubt the validity of HuffPo? Hersey!

321 theparson  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:47:16pm

re: #300 DesertSage

You're relying on Wikipedia to give you the answer?

Nazism was a Leftist/totalitarian ideology. It was an offshoot of Marxism, originally known as a "Third Way" ideology....much the same as Fascism was a Third Way ideology.

I am not seeking the answer. Neither am I relying on Wikipedia, I am referencing Wikipedia as a source of information for discussion.

322 Globular Cluster  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:47:36pm

re: #300 DesertSage

You're relying on Wikipedia to give you the answer?

Nazism was a Leftist/totalitarian ideology. It was an offshoot of Marxism, originally known as a "Third Way" ideology....much the same as Fascism was a Third Way ideology.

They were socialist. Check. They believed in large central government. Check. Like Margaret Sanger and other progressives, they believed in Eugenics. Check. They hated Jews, like today's Leftists. Check. They espoused populist wealth distribution (a "Volkswagen in every garage"). Check.

The only reason that Nazis are called right wing is because they stood in opposition to the Communists (and because the liberal MSM loves to associate today's conservatives with Nazis). But it is more accurate to see the conflict in the Wiemar as a battle between two Left wing groups vying for supremacy. I think, at least.

323 christheprofessor  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:47:39pm

re: #314 rawmuse

I was once asked to describe myself in 25 words or less. My response:
"Concise".

I'd have gone with "levity"... ;)

324 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:48:03pm

re: #319 DesertSage

I never go there. But, does it refer to the fact it is on YAHOO's freaking main page like it is a real article?

325 PSGInfinity  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:48:07pm

re: #308 jainphx

There is some truth in that, but I'm still not up to making someone that I know is just using me, a friend.

Like I just replied to Mich-again:

Q: How do we keep them at arm's length yet show them the errors of their ways then rehabilitate them so that we CAN embrace them when the chips are down?

326 JeremyR  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:48:21pm

re: #306 Opilio

Not at all. I freely admit that I was born in the waning days of the Eisenhower presidency. In the year of my birth, the top ten U.S. baby names were:

Michael %u2002 Mary
David %u2002 %u2002Susan
James %u2002%u2002Linda
John %u2002 %u2002 Karen
Robert %u2002 Donna

In 2007:

Jacob %u2002 %u2002Emily
Michael %u2002 Isabella
Ethan %u2002 %u2002Emma
Joshua %u2002%u2002Ava
Daniel %u2002 %u2002Madison

Well, if Mandy told the truth, when she was born Grog Ugg and Err were the top three names.

327 mitthrawnurdo  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:48:59pm

re: #269 Noam Sayin'

I agree with your assessment.

/Also, with enough moxie to completely devastate any offenders.

328 OldLineTexan  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:49:01pm

re: #320 mitthrawnurdo

You doubt the validity of HuffPo? Hersey!

Nestle!

/No, seriously, I go to HuffPoo for all the latest in Christian voting gossip n' facts.

329 rawmuse  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:49:20pm

The best analysis of 20th century governance, in all their myriad, tyrannical forms is in Jonah Goldberg's book "Liberal Fascism". If you have not read it, get it. I would give you my copies but I already gave them away.

330 A Kiwi Infidel  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:49:32pm

re: #314 rawmuse

I was once asked to describe myself in 25 words or less. My response:
"Concise".


Thats cheatin', refering to yourself as a dictionary, you cover all bases.

Mind you, quite clever.

331 Mich-again  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:49:33pm

re: #315 PSGInfinity

How do we keep them at arm's length, show them the errors of their ways, rehabilitate them so that we CAN embrace them when the chips are down?

I have no answers as to how to rehabilitate neo-nazis. Good luck with that.

332 MandyManners  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:49:55pm

re: #326 JeremyR

Well, if Mandy told the truth, when she was born Grog Ugg and Err were the top three names.

You're forgetting "Ornk."

333 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:50:23pm
334 mitthrawnurdo  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:50:37pm

Is Fjordman an academic?

Those sort have mastered the art of saying nothing using millions or words.

/No, I don't think all academics are like that, but enough are.

335 Purple Prose  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:51:02pm

re: #79 Globular Cluster

Speaking of Scandinavian, The Finnish language is most closely related to Turkish, because Finland was populated by Samoyed Reindeer pastoralists who originated in the northern Turkic steppe.

Actually, Finnish is a Finno-Ugric language most related to Hungarian and Estonian. Only a minority of scholars think that this language family is related to Turkish, so this is not a settled question.

At any rate, language is very different from heredity. Languages are often transmitted ultra-genetically, by conquest or adoption.

Only DNA analysis can establish relationships.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

[Link: eeuropeanhistory.suite101.com...]

336 JeremyR  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:52:00pm

re: #332 MandyManners

You're forgetting "Ornk."

SORRY 8-( I thought that one wa stops the year before. My bad.

337 ggt  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:52:16pm

re: #329 rawmuse

GMTA!

338 Render  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:52:23pm

No Fjordman, for the 10 billionth time, no.

STUFF
IT,
R

339 christheprofessor  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:52:27pm

re: #334 mitthrawnurdo

Is Fjordman an academic?

Those sort have mastered the art of saying nothing using millions or words.

/No, I don't think all academics are like that, but enough are.

For the record, I can say absolutely nothing in no words!

/top that!

340 Tom Kratman  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:52:35pm

I don't know a great bloody deal about Vlaams Belang, frankly. Just out of curiosity, what in their platform are we identifying as "fascist?" Alternatively, are we seeing a large number of its members who are fascist, whatever the official platform may be? In the latter case, whose definition of fascism are we using, beyond the standard left wing, "fascism is all that of which I disapprove that ls to the right of Lenin?"

341 3 wood  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:52:35pm

re: #272 gman

ethno- nationalists aka racialists aka racists write some of the most long- winded essays I have ever seen. I'm not a psychologist but I do believe there is a little self- guilt going on behind the scenes. It could also be the equivalent of Islamic Dawah. The racist is trying to sweet talk you to their point of view.

Could be. It reminds me of when one of my students writes an endless essay that actually says very little. They are trying to hide their lack of intellectual insight with volume of words. And the less real material they have to say, the more space they take up saying it.

I mean really, it all boils down to Fjordman trying to justify collaborating with some very evil people.

Hey Fjordman! Here's a clear thought from me to you - jam it sideways.

342 JeremyR  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:53:27pm

re: #333 savage_nation

LOL!

Well, she said 40,000 years old. And all this time I thought I was the last surviving link.
What pisses me is that they turned me down for the GEICO comercials, too scary.

343 PSGInfinity  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:53:50pm

re: #331 Mich-again

I have no answers as to how to rehabilitate neo-nazis. Good luck with that.

Me neither. I've noticed that discussions tend to generate heat, or light. I don't have the light, anymore than anyone else it seems. It's literally all I can do to try to tamp down the heat. Sigh.

344 3 wood  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:53:55pm

re: #315 PSGInfinity

How do we keep them at arm's length, show them the errors of their ways, rehabilitate them so that we CAN embrace them when the chips are down?

You can't. If the penny does not drop for them on their own, we sure can't do it for them.

345 ggt  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:53:57pm

re: #332 MandyManners


Err?

Actually, there are many jokes in that, but I'm not qualified to find them.

346 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:54:02pm
347 Render  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:54:51pm

re: #340 Tom Kratman

VB is a neo-nazi political party and has been since the day it was founded, by self-admitted neo-nazi's.

SIR,
R

348 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:55:36pm

re: #341 3 wood

Evenin' Wood.


Just doesn't stand up the same. So, just "Hi Wood!"

349 3 wood  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:56:42pm

re: #348 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Wood words in the evening too, my friend :)

Hi veg

350 ggt  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:56:44pm

re: #341 3 wood

My Dear Ole Dad stops reading when he gets to the 3 or 4th archaic big word. He figures they are used as a smoke screen --to cover-up
the author's incompetence.

351 theparson  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:57:20pm

I, too was born in the last few years of D David E's administration (a fellow Texan, I might add).

352 Tom Kratman  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:57:26pm

re: #228 Quilly Mammoth

Actually Fjordman and the other frogs have fallen for the reasoning of the scorpion. "Why would I sting you?".

In the older version of the parable the scorpion stings the frog just as journey ends and the scorpion can scurry to shore. When they find their rights taken by the latest infestation of European Fascism what will they say then? "At least we beat the Islamo-nazis"?

Sore solace, that.

Yeah...not a lot of solace. Moreover, a truly fascist regime in Europe wouldn't help their demographics much, if at all, as that would be as uncomfortable and strange as the Islamic variety. This would cause about as many young, fertile Euros (especially and critically, women) to flee.

They're almost certainly just screwed.

353 PSGInfinity  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:57:36pm

re: #344 3 wood

You can't. If the penny does not drop for them on their own, we sure can't do it for them.

That's a big chunk of why I stayed out of the fray, the first time. I'd've stayed out of this one, too. But I decided to wade in, and had a pretty good run, I think. Tamped down the heat a bit. A good night, I believe...

354 ggt  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:57:48pm

re: #344 3 wood

You can lead a horse to water . . . .

355 stevieray  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:57:50pm

re: #322 Globular Cluster


The only reason that Nazis are called right wing is because they stood in opposition to the Communists (and because the liberal MSM loves to associate today's conservatives with Nazis). But it is more accurate to see the conflict in the Wiemar as a battle between two Left wing groups vying for supremacy. I think, at least.

Yep. They were enemies because they were bitter rivals fighting over the loyalty of the same potential followers -- the angry young man/woman, and the bitter/resentful/left behind middle aged. The prescriptions offered for society differed only in the details... both demanded complete surrender to an all powerful and wise central state.

356 Thanos  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:58:43pm

re: #315 PSGInfinity

Ah, that's the essential point, my friend: How do we keep them at arm's length, show them the errors of their ways, rehabilitate them so that we CAN embrace them when the chips are down?

We've shown them the errors of their ways and they aren't rehabilitatable. (is that a word?) When you subsume your intellect and individuality to tribal nationalism you become a lost cause because after several years of that there isn't an individual left to rehabilitate.

357 JeremyR  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:58:59pm

re: #346 savage_nation

haha.

How did the sewer job go?

Only half covered in the good stuff. Tree roots, gotta love em. Old clay pipes suck, but I'm not gonna dig up the entire building to repipe it. We will flush copper sulfate down about once a month all summer to keep the roots down.
Felt sorry for the gal who called. She is nine months BIG and ready to pop. She was dating a guy while TDY and didn't learn he was married until after she was knocked up. She's a sweet heart.

358 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:59:07pm

Gotta go to bed. G'night all. G'night Jim Bob!

See ya in the Mornin' Wood! Heh!

359 3 wood  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:59:45pm

re: #353 PSGInfinity

I stay out of it too, other than to tell Fjordman to stick it where the sun don't shine.

360 Thanos  Sun, May 11, 2008 7:59:58pm

re: #322 Globular Cluster

They were socialist. Check. They believed in large central government. Check. Like Margaret Sanger and other progressives, they believed in Eugenics. Check. They hated Jews, like today's Leftists. Check. They espoused populist wealth distribution (a "Volkswagen in every garage"). Check.

The only reason that Nazis are called right wing is because they stood in opposition to the Communists (and because the liberal MSM loves to associate today's conservatives with Nazis). But it is more accurate to see the conflict in the Wiemar as a battle between two Left wing groups vying for supremacy. I think, at least.

You've got that right, it was the war of the black and the red.

361 guftafs  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:00:14pm

re: #334 mitthrawnurdo

Think I read somewhere he's working as a civil servant, so no.

362 ggt  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:00:15pm
363 JeremyR  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:00:58pm

re: #350 ggt

My Dear Ole Dad stops reading when he gets to the 3 or 4th archaic big word. He figures they are used as a smoke screen --to cover-up
the author's incompetence.

When I took the judges exam, the scorer told us that if he didn't feel we knew the material by the fifth sentence, he wasn't gonna read the sixth one. Fake it till ya make it doesn't always fly.
In Fjordmans case its fake it till they yawn.

364 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:01:46pm
365 PSGInfinity  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:01:48pm

re: #356 Thanos

We've shown them the errors of their ways and they aren't rehabilitatable. (is that a word?) When you subsume your intellect and individuality to tribal nationalism you become a lost cause because after several years of that there isn't an individual left to rehabilitate.

I'm sorry, I meant that as, largely, a rhetorical question. As I admitted upthread, I can ask the questions. I don't have the answers...

366 Karridine  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:01:55pm

Fjordman relegated to back burner, this OT:
"On Sunday, Myanmar's state television said the death toll from Cyclone Nargis had gone up by about 5,000 to 28,458 — with another 33,416 missing — though some experts said it could be 15 times that if people do not get clean water and sanitation soon.

"A natural disaster is turning into a humanitarian catastrophe of genuinely epic proportions in significant part because of the malign neglect of the regime," said British Foreign Secretary David Miliband.

"I would be amazed if there hadn't been about 100,000 who had died already ... what's more, hundreds of thousands more are at risk," he told British Broadcasting Corp. television.

Meanwhile, aid was piling up in foreign countries, awaiting approval from the junta."

EIGHTEEN Paragraphs down in a Yahoo report...

How can we (at LGF) apply persuasive energy to GET AID FLOWING?

367 3 wood  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:01:57pm

re: #358 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Got to hit the hay too.

Knowing that an ego maniac like Fjordman will read this, my middle finger is extended to you Fjordman. Now, go huddle up with your neo-nazi friends and suck your thumb.

368 ggt  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:02:43pm

All we can do is raise our children to value what we value; Continue to involve ourselves in the political process to limit government power and keep ourselves in a place where we are not part of the problem.

369 JeremyR  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:03:02pm

re: #354 ggt

You can lead a horse to water . . . .

But you can't make him drink? Sure you can, feed him salt! Jesus told us to be salt and light. Some say salt is a preservative, but it truth it makes you thirsty.

370 jainphx  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:03:19pm

re: #365 PSGInfinity

Don't be sorry. You argued your point as a gentleman.

371 TalkinKamel  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:04:24pm

I really don't like the sound of that upcoming debate (debate? What's to debate?) about the origins of Christian anti-semetism. And I thought Fjordman, GoV and Pamela were all fearless anti-jihad fighters; so why would they go so far off-track as to have a group discussion about something so completely off topic from the WoT?

I really, really, don't like the sound of this. . .

372 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:04:43pm

re: #369 JeremyR

"These pretzels are making me thirsty."

Kramer, before the fall.

373 experiencedtraveller  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:04:46pm

re: #340 Tom Kratman

I don't know a great bloody deal about Vlaams Belang, frankly. Just out of curiosity, what in their platform are we identifying as "fascist?" Alternatively, are we seeing a large number of its members who are fascist, whatever the official platform may be? In the latter case, whose definition of fascism are we using, beyond the standard left wing, "fascism is all that of which I disapprove that ls to the right of Lenin?"

I am using Charles' opinion on fascism and wanna-be-fascists. Seems to be working just fine...

374 bosforus  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:05:32pm

savage, this might freak you out a little bit but hopefully you get a kick out of it...
I had a dream last night that you and I passed each other on the I-15. We were communicating on laptops through lgf while driving. You were driving a UPS truck. You were a woman.
:)

375 JeremyR  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:05:42pm

re: #362 ggt

In the year I was born . . .

I checked my birth year, and its full of idiots so why add one more name to THAT long list.

376 ggt  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:05:58pm

re: #357 JeremyR

Where I used to live (in a Far Western Suburb of Chicagoland), clay pipes were code. We had to have our's routed every year, just part of the annual budget.

377 ggt  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:07:01pm

re: #369 JeremyR

Good Point.

378 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:07:02pm
379 nyc redneck  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:07:51pm

re: #378 savage_nation

wow! was I hot or a big Jabba the Hutt wannabe?

LOL

380 jainphx  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:08:01pm

re: #375 JeremyR

I can't remember that far back, I know Adolph wasn't given to many at the time.

381 Purple Prose  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:08:02pm

I can't help but think that responding is in fact what Fjordman wanted. It drove up the numbers of people reading his post at least tenfold, both those who disagree and agree with him. Better to ignore those you part company with, no?

382 theparson  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:08:34pm

NASA and I were born the same year.

383 bosforus  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:08:47pm

re: #378 savage_nation

wow! was I hot or a big Jabba the Hutt wannabe?

i wouldn't say you were "hot", but you were pretty cute. you had a nice smile. you probably would've looked hotter if i had been able to see you walk a package up to a house in that ups outfit.

384 PSGInfinity  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:10:51pm

re: #370 jainphx

Don't be sorry. You argued your point as a gentleman.

Thank you! And same to you!
One or three more posts, and it's a night for me...

385 theparson  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:12:39pm

Later, Lizards, gotta go to bed.
Courage.
Change.

Good night Mrs. Callabash... wherever you are.

386 JeremyR  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:13:04pm

re: #378 savage_nation

wow! was I hot or a big Jabba the Hutt wannabe?

Well, if you was a Jabba the Hutt wannabe, you'd have been HOT for real. Those UPS trucks have zilch for A/Cs, especially with the doors open.

387 Tom Kratman  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:13:08pm

re: #347 Render

VB is a neo-nazi political party and has been since the day it was founded, by self-admitted neo-nazi's.

SIR,
R

That doesn't help a lot. Who founded it? Their neo-nazi "credentials," if that's the word? The nazi attributes in their platform? Is fascism or nazism central to that platform or only central to some nut cases who attached themselves? Do they trace their ancestry to some Waffen SS regiment and/or Quislingesque movement? (Those seem possible.)

See, I get accused of being a fascist all the time. I'm not, of course, except by that tacit leftist definition I gave. (For one thing, to be a fascist you have to love government...and I don't.) I'm to the right (okay, way, _way_ to the right) of Lenin and they don't like my books...or me. Apparently, that's enough. I also get accused of racism with some regularity. I sometimes tell people to take that up with my wife who would be terribly surprised by the accusation. Those are, in any case, words that have become so overused, loosely used, and wrongly used that they've lost nearly all meaning.

So my question still stands.

388 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:13:33pm

re: #371 TalkinKamel

It is curious. I was thinking maybe they'll blame it on Reason and science but they souldn't do something that ridiculous, would they? But why would they go out of their way to criticise Christianity? I wonder what their gimmick is going to be.

389 Opilio  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:13:50pm

re: #350 ggt

My Dear Ole Dad stops reading when he gets to the 3 or 4th archaic big word. He figures they are used as a smoke screen --to cover-up
the author's incompetence.

No patience for tedious loquacity, prolixity, and bloviation. A wise man.

390 Globular Cluster  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:13:57pm

re: #335 Purple Prose

Actually, Finnish is a Finno-Ugric language most related to Hungarian and Estonian. Only a minority of scholars think that this language family is related to Turkish, so this is not a settled question.

At any rate, language is very different from heredity. Languages are often transmitted ultra-genetically, by conquest or adoption.

Only DNA analysis can establish relationships.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

[Link: eeuropeanhistory.suite101.com...]

Of course, language doesn't determine race. But it is used, in conjunction with other data (e.g. archeological, genetic) to determine the migrations and relationships among certain populations. Obviously, it can't be used everywhere (American blacks speak English).

Finnish, then, according to my chart, is related to Mongolic, which is listed under Finno-Ugrian. According to Wikipedia, Mongolic is a member of the Altaic language branch, which includes Turkish. So my chart is probably wrong or Wiki is wrong, or maybe the Altaic and Finno-Ugric languages are related. In any event, it seems fairly clear that the Finns are rooted in the Samoyed tradition, and their language is not Indo-European, like most European languages. Thanks for the heads-up -- I didn't realize this was controversial.

391 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:14:15pm

re: #387 Tom Kratman

Search LGF for Vlaam Belang and you'll get a complete history.

392 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:14:37pm
393 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:14:53pm
394 Thanos  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:15:12pm

re: #371 TalkinKamel

I really don't like the sound of that upcoming debate (debate? What's to debate?) about the origins of Christian anti-semetism. And I thought Fjordman, GoV and Pamela were all fearless anti-jihad fighters; so why would they go so far off-track as to have a group discussion about something so completely off topic from the WoT?

I really, really, don't like the sound of this. . .

What I really suspect is that they are seeing the debate over here on ID, and trying to pry a few folks who might be upset about it out of the fold. We'll probably get called eugnicists again. There's a neo-luddite/populist streak to them if you haven't noted it before, it's one of the reasons most of the posters take the names of famous people in history.

395 jainphx  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:15:39pm

re: #385 theparson

Some say that was for Jimmy Durante's wife. He was an entertainer that I enjoyed.

396 JeremyR  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:16:14pm

re: #382 theparson

NASA and I were born the same year.

When I was in first grade, mom announced her birthday by proclaiming she was a hundred (she probably felt it that morning) and I, being gullible went and told that to the teacher.

397 bosforus  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:17:07pm

re: #393 savage_nation

/blushing

LOL
You look good as blonde.
Alright, that's all I stopped in for. Felt like the kind of thing I had to get off my chest before I could comfortably move on with my life.

398 Purple Prose  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:17:24pm
399 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:18:06pm
400 JeremyR  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:18:23pm

re: #392 savage_nation

Maybe the A/C is crap, but they make some good money for what they do.

And stay in shape as well. Sprinting packages to houses and businesses all day long keeps the fat off.

401 PSGInfinity  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:19:07pm

re: #371 TalkinKamel

I really don't like the sound of that upcoming debate (debate? What's to debate?) about the origins of Christian [Antisemitism]. And I thought Fjordman, GoV and Pamela were all fearless anti-jihad fighters; so why would they go so far off-track as to have a group discussion about something so completely off topic from the WoT?

I really, really, don't like the sound of this. . .

Europeans tried to bury their twin demons of hypernationalism and bigotry, of which Anti-Semitism was justly judged the worst. In retrospect, they should have confronted and worked through them, not suppressed them. Because, as we see, they're back, aggravated by an existential threat. And with the Utopians convinced that any non-Utopian is a caveman unfit for even for employment, the pressure will accelerate dramatically.

And people under pressure make many mistakes.

402 madmax517  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:20:06pm

re: #90 Lively

I suppose the Congressman played by Steve Carrell and obamanation have something in common by seeking change! Kind of funny the flick deals with corruption in Congress and barry O comes from corrupt Chicago politics. He might condemn lobbyists in DC, but says nothing about the evil of Mayor Dailey, Rezno et al.

403 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:21:03pm
404 PSGInfinity  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:21:30pm

re: #389 Opilio

No patience for tedious loquacity, prolixity, and bloviation. A wise man.

Yeah, what you's said!

405 Thanos  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:21:34pm

re: #387 Tom Kratman

Karel Dillen. You can get his newly revised biography from VB's store. It's titled from a Wies Moens poem. (Who is Wies Moens? Translate the third link down here.)

you can see more here and here.

406 TalkinKamel  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:22:33pm

re: #388 Killgore Trout

It is curious. I was thinking maybe they'll blame it on Reason and science but they souldn't do something that ridiculous, would they? But why would they go out of their way to criticise Christianity? I wonder what their gimmick is going to be.

Kilgore, I'm honestly not sure. Knowing what a militant uber-Catholic Dymphna is, I'd be surprised they're going after Christianity; I'm afraid they might be trying to find some way to blame anti-semetism on the Jews themselves. You know, they unbalanced rinso-white European culture long before Islam, blah, blah, blah.

Maybe they're going to play the, "We want a pure Christian religion, with no non-European elements," or, "We want a more naturalistic, Christian religion." (The Nazis, remember, were very big on nature, and ancient pagan religions. Played right, you really could get ninnies like Dymphna go along with this, I think.)

Or, they really might blame reason and science! I agree, it's pretty ridiculous---but they are pretty ridiculous at this point.

The only thing I'm sure of is that, whatever their gimmick, I'm not going to like it.

407 Purple Prose  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:23:21pm

re: #390 Globular Cluster

Of course, language doesn't determine race. But it is used, in conjunction with other data (e.g. archeological, genetic) to determine the migrations and relationships among certain populations. Obviously, it can't be used everywhere (American blacks speak English).

Finnish, then, according to my chart, is related to Mongolic, which is listed under Finno-Ugrian. According to Wikipedia, Mongolic is a member of the Altaic language branch, which includes Turkish. So my chart is probably wrong or Wiki is wrong, or maybe the Altaic and Finno-Ugric languages are related. In any event, it seems fairly clear that the Finns are rooted in the Samoyed tradition, and their language is not Indo-European, like most European languages. Thanks for the heads-up -- I didn't realize this was controversial.

Actually, in direct DNA-based support of your argument, the modern Finnish are genetically very closely related to other Scandinavian populations, while Hungarians have been, not unexpectedly, considerably mixed with German and Slavic populations. So the mixing is there. The idea of a pure race is bogus.

However, language is something else, and one has to be careful inferring anything from language. That's my point, not questioning your main argument that Europeans and every other human group are mixed genetically. You are right there, and the DNA bears it out. I have just learned that languages are a very poor predictor of relationships, so you have to look at DNA.

408 JeremyR  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:24:20pm
409 average_guy  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:24:26pm

Savage_Nation:

I passed the story you shared yesterday along to my mom today. It made her smile.

I gave you props after I shared it with her. Thanks.

410 TalkinKamel  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:25:02pm

re: #394 Thanos

Hoo-ha! Thanos, you might be onto something! (Kilgore, take note!)

I had noticed the Luddite tendencies among them; the Nazis were heavily into anti-luddite, let's-get-back-to-nature, blood and soil stuff. It didn't keep them from being eugenicists.

411 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:25:02pm

re: #406 TalkinKamel


Maybe they're going to play the, "We want a pure Christian religion, with no non-European elements," or, "We want a more naturalistic, Christian religion." (The Nazis, remember, were very big on nature, and ancient pagan religions. Played right, you really could get ninnies like Dymphna go along with this, I think.)


I like that option. It's the only one that even remotely makes sense.

412 ggt  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:25:05pm

re: #398 Purple Prose

H@ll of a year!

413 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:25:45pm
414 Killian Bundy  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:25:48pm

re: #311 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Source.

H.U.F.F.I.N.G.T.O.N P.O.S.T.

Arianna Huffington huffs and puffs and blogs them all down

America’s top blogger tells why she has whipped up a storm with revelations about presidential hopeful John McCain

/better than ipecac

415 guftafs  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:26:09pm

re: #388 Killgore Trout

It is curious. I was thinking maybe they'll blame it on Reason and science but they souldn't do something that ridiculous, would they? But why would they go out of their way to criticise Christianity? I wonder what their gimmick is going to be.

Could be in the hope to establish a common base of agreement to find new supporters for their point of view. Not a very controversial topic, is it?

416 JeremyR  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:26:17pm

re: #403 savage_nation

I remember when I did LTL, I never had a ounce of extra weight on me.

Know what you mean. I've got a friend who drives long haul for Frito Lay. I have yet to figure out how come he is fat, stocking bins and stores all day.

417 Koby77  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:26:41pm

I took a look at Fjordman's article by immediately clicking on the link, and prior to reading the part, "My answer can be summed up in those three legendary words, “Where’s the beef?”". The article indeed does attack the media for misrepresenting him, and also notes some Islamofascist statements printed by those media sources. But the author never really says what it is he believes, or directly refutes the claims of his own fascism. Again, "Where's the beef?"

Sorry, Fjordman. Your direct appeal to me doesn't change my mind.

418 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:27:22pm
419 JeremyR  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:27:49pm

re: #413 savage_nation

LOL! I thought you were gonna go all the way back with that post.

Well, if she's as old as she claimed, the big bang was her first night with Adam.

420 Tom Kratman  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:27:57pm

re: #391 Killgore Trout

Search LGF for Vlaam Belang and you'll get a complete history.

First thing I did before posting. I see three references to "Nazi," and those are two accusations from political enemies, and one platform demand for an amnesty similar to what other Euro countries have declared. That's a thin case. I see one accusation from Pym Fortuyn that they were fascist. That doesn't make the case a lot better.

421 JeremyR  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:29:18pm

re: #418 savage_nation

Look at what he delivers!

True. I've got that problem too.

422 TalkinKamel  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:29:25pm

re: #411 Killgore Trout

Yes, I'm beginning to think it's the most likely option.

(Whatever the gimmick is, I'm pretty sure we're not going to like it.)

423 TalkinKamel  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:30:08pm

re: #420 Tom Kratman

If you don't see, after reading all the entries (if you have read them), it's because you don't want to see.

424 rawmuse  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:30:40pm

Is there anyone here besides me who has been called a "Nazi" and has subsequently punched said insult flinger in the nose? I have done it, even recently.

425 infidelia  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:30:47pm

re: #340 Tom Kratman

I don't know a great bloody deal about Vlaams Belang, frankly. Just out of curiosity, what in their platform are we identifying as "fascist?" Alternatively, are we seeing a large number of its members who are fascist, whatever the official platform may be? In the latter case, whose definition of fascism are we using, beyond the standard left wing, "fascism is all that of which I disapprove that ls to the right of Lenin?"

Tom, this is a bit OT, but have you run into resistance from bookstore chains over The Caliphate? I ask because I work for that bastion of free speech (where's the sarc button), B****rs (and I'm paranoid), and the book has been listed as in-transit-gee-we-don't-know-where-the-hell-it-is for about a month now. The also appear to have no plans to stock Willful Blindness or Defending the West, and The Legacy of Islamic Anti-Semitism may be a no-show as well.

426 stevieray  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:31:17pm

re: #407 Purple Prose

If I recall my history correctly, the ethnically "pure" nations of today's Europe are post-WWI creations. When the empires broke down after the First World War, many of the new states were partitioned ethnically, and the remaining mixed states were further divided after WWII.

427 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:31:20pm
428 Roger  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:31:34pm

re: #371 TalkinKamel

I really don't like the sound of that upcoming debate (debate? What's to debate?) about the origins of Christian anti-semetism. And I thought Fjordman, GoV and Pamela were all fearless anti-jihad fighters; so why would they go so far off-track as to have a group discussion about something so completely off topic from the WoT?

I really, really, don't like the sound of this. . .

Yes, I know. Been expecting it for the last week...

429 rawmuse  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:32:41pm

Tom Cruise's Hitler film shelved.

430 JeremyR  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:33:15pm

re: #427 savage_nation

oh, kinky!

Suprised she hasn't commented. She must be searching Kansas by now and zeroing in. If I hear whistling, I'm gonna run.

431 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:33:56pm
432 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:34:05pm

re: #420 Tom Kratman

First thing I did before posting. I see three references to "Nazi,"


I didn't day to search "Nazi". If you search LGF for "Vlaams Belang" you will get all the background information you need. Again the term to search on lgf is Vlaams Belang.

433 Tom Kratman  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:34:10pm

re: #405 Thanos

Karel Dillen. You can get his newly revised biography from VB's store. It's titled from a Wies Moens poem. (Who is Wies Moens? Translate the third link down here.)

you can see more here and here.


Yep, that's more evidence...some pretty good evidence as a matter of fact.

434 JeremyR  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:34:33pm

re: #429 rawmuse

Tom Cruise's Hitler film shelved.

Dang! They shoulda shelved Cruise instead, and thrown the film in the trash.

435 rawmuse  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:36:05pm

re: #431 savage_nation

Good on ya. If more people did that, these little flippant sh*ts would not fling that particular insult around so freely. My Dad fought Nazis, the real ones.

436 TalkinKamel  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:36:25pm

re: #422 TalkinKamel

As I recall, the Nazis didn't much like old-fashioned Christianity, and wanted a faith that was more representative of the German people, and celebrated blood and soil, blah, blah, the whole dreary schtick. They wanted to cleanse Christianity of its Jewish/Middle-Eastern elements.

I can't help but wonder if Fjordman/GoV, etc., aren't going to try pushing the same thing; what theologian C.S. Lewis would have called, "Christianity AND!" i.e., "Christianity and Social justice," "Christianity and the Aryan race," "Christianity and Marx", so on and so forth. They might be getting ready to push "Christianity AND European purity!" "Christianity AND the Left is being mean to white people."

(I don't think they'll do "Christianity AND America; they don't seem that interested in the US anymore. And, whatever the gimmick is, I don't think we're gonna like it!)

437 Sharmuta  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:36:31pm

fjordy-

I find it rather pathetic that you'd need to beg for posters for your friends at gov. And you do it using a blog that is incapable of retracting it's trash on not just Charles, but on Bruce Bawer, too. That's quite shameless on the part of "the desk". What's more- I wouldn't join any debate at gov, invited or otherwise for the simple fact that I have better things to do with my time than convince people who have no issue with promoting racists and genocidal fantasizers. They haven't figured it out now, they're not likely to by anything I have to say, nor by anything any of the decent folks here at LGF have to say either. In short- it would be a cold day in hell before I joined you at gov.

438 Opilio  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:36:52pm

re: #417 Koby77

It took you 7 months to push your way out of your shell?!? Charles needs to lighten up on the calcium supplements.

439 Charles  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:36:55pm

re: #433 Tom Kratman

Yep, that's more evidence...some pretty good evidence as a matter of fact.

Some more Vlaams Belang Nazi links:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

440 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:37:05pm
441 TalkinKamel  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:38:26pm

re: #428 Roger

You have? What did you hear? They've been talking about this delightful (?) debate for a week now?

442 JeremyR  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:38:50pm

re: #424 rawmuse

Is there anyone here besides me who has been called a "Nazi" and has subsequently punched said insult flinger in the nose? I have done it, even recently.

Never been called a nazi to my face. Had a few lesser insults earn guys a trip to the ER though.

443 mudhen  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:39:09pm

One point that may not have been made yet, is to answer Fjordman's frustration when Charles continues to post about GoV. The simple answer is that *not everyone who should know about GoV, VB, etc. are up to speed*. Many people are just beginning to pay attention to the European situation. Just because most of us on LGF were there when the blow up happened, there are more people who daily join or read LGF and need to understand what both sides are all about.

I rarely post, but was an avid reader of GoV in the days when their racism was more carefully hidden. They are articulate and persuasive. They appeal to the survivalist/protectionist that lives within us... the little voice that we listen to when threatened. We all feel threatened by the Muslim immigration issues, it is going to be the biggest threat of our lifetimes. So, GoV's posts and points of view were fitting into a certain worldview that many of us share.

However, it became apparent through Charles' diligent digging, that the hidden racism was there all along, was insidious and was going to be a much larger problem. I'm not going to post to it again, since I no longer have GoV on the favorites list, but upon reading one post that proposed, among other things, that countries in Europe make it illegal for Muslims to marry Muslims, and to build mosques, and proposed mass deportations of Muslims (whether legal or not, and whether they were culturally assimilated or not), I decided that I could not side with people who would take such tactics seriously. Turn the words inside out... substitute any race or religion... and it cannot be abided. We can't make laws AGAINST one religion or race, just to single them out for squelching... because the precedent would be set. This decade it would be Muslims. Next decade, perhaps, Hindus. Then Fundamentalists. Jews, of course... You just can't side with people like that. There is a better way, and we have to stay with our principles.

444 Sharmuta  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:39:15pm

Tom Kratman- use the tag storm and look up, vlaams belang, vlaams blok, fascist and neo-nazi. Hope that helps.

445 rawmuse  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:39:47pm

OK, kids, it has been a long weekend, and I am turning in.
As usual, the experience has been satisfactory, in the extreme.

446 MandyManners  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:41:17pm

re: #429 rawmuse

Tom Cruise's Hitler film shelved.

He's gonna' jump on somebody's couch.

447 Tom Kratman  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:41:56pm

re: #425 infidelia

Tom, this is a bit OT, but have you run into resistance from bookstore chains over The Caliphate? I ask because I work for that bastion of free speech (where's the sarc button), B****rs (and I'm paranoid), and the book has been listed as in-transit-gee-we-don't-know-where-the-h ell-it-is for about a month now. The also appear to have no plans to stock Willful Blindness or Defending the West, and The Legacy of Islamic Anti-Semitism may be a no-show as well.

Not that I've found. Remember, I'm bloody new. While my first book came out in Dec 03, and my second in Aug 05, I've only been writing full time for two years; since I retired from the Army. Thus, I don't have a track record to drive major purchases from the brick and mortar stores. Those appear, however, to have been going up for the last three books. I know that, for Carnifex specifically, relatively few were ordered, initially, then the thing literally sold out (There were NO copies in the world outside of a small box under my desk) and used copies were going for 140 bucks in Europe) and had to be reprinted and redistributed. Right now I've got a fan base (I'm guessing) of about 20k readers...give or take. That's not going to go up appreciably until the _cheap_ paperbacks for the last four (Yellow Eyes, A Desert Called Peace, Carnifex, Caliphate) come out. Those the bookstores will probably stock well, which should drive up the base.

On the other hand, you're perfectly welcome to nag the system. ;)

448 Racer X  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:42:02pm
449 TalkinKamel  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:42:06pm

re: #443 mudhen

I liked GoV way back when too; as I've said before, I liked the Baron's expose work on the Jamat al Furga group.

I disliked the increasingly strident, racist note, however, and I finally stopped reading it completely when Dymphna stated that it would be wrong to support Hirsi Ali, because she was a horrible, unchristian atheist.

450 Sharmuta  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:42:20pm

Killgore-

I was searching vlaams belang in the comments a while back and it seems you were one of the first people to point out they had fascist ties. Good job!

451 MandyManners  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:43:27pm

re: #449 TalkinKamel

I liked GoV way back when too; as I've said before, I liked the Baron's expose work on the Jamat al Furga group.

I disliked the increasingly strident, racist note, however, and I finally stopped reading it completely when Dymphna stated that it would be wrong to support Hirsi Ali, because she was a horrible, unchristian atheist.

She'd toss her to the Muslims if given the chance?

452 ggt  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:43:52pm

re: #425 infidelia

Try getting any book about the 2nd Amendment. Amazon is my bookstore.

453 The Other Les  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:44:33pm

Think of it as barbarism in action:

Looks like there's going to be another million dead because of a Socialist regime. In Burma this time.

The average daily death toll inflicted on Human Beings since Lenin's coup d'etat in November of 1917 is a bit over 3000 a day. In contrast the military administration of Chile under General Pinochet killed fewer than 3000 Marxists altogether.

What are your questions on this block of instruction?
_

454 Tom Kratman  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:44:58pm

re: #432 Killgore Trout

I didn't day to search "Nazi". If you search LGF for "Vlaams Belang" you will get all the background information you need. Again the term to search on lgf is Vlaams Belang.

For some prematurely senile reason, I read what you wrote as "search wiki," not "search LGF." That's where i found such a thin case. Fear not, some of the references some of the folks gave are sufficient to support the charge.

455 Racer X  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:45:24pm

I just took a peek over at Huffpo and read crap regarding McCain that was so extremely vile I had to close the window.

Those people are seriously deranged. No sense of humor at all. Completely filled with hate.

456 infidelia  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:46:03pm

re: #447 Tom Kratman

Not that I've found. Remember, I'm bloody new. While my first book came out in Dec 03, and my second in Aug 05, I've only been writing full time for two years; since I retired from the Army. Thus, I don't have a track record to drive major purchases from the brick and mortar stores. Those appear, however, to have been going up for the last three books. I know that, for Carnifex specifically, relatively few were ordered, initially, then the thing literally sold out (There were NO copies in the world outside of a small box under my desk) and used copies were going for 140 bucks in Europe) and had to be reprinted and redistributed. Right now I've got a fan base (I'm guessing) of about 20k readers...give or take. That's not going to go up appreciably until the _cheap_ paperbacks for the last four (Yellow Eyes, A Desert Called Peace, Carnifex, Caliphate) come out. Those the bookstores will probably stock well, which should drive up the base.

On the other hand, you're perfectly welcome to nag the system. ;)

Thanks Tom. I'll keep my eyes out for Caliphate.

457 Steffan  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:46:15pm

If you haven't already read it, I recommend Jonah Goldberg's book Liberal Fascism quite highly.

It explains in detail the fascist roots of modern Progressivism.

It makes what passes for the philosophy of Hillary, Obama, Kos, and Al Gore much more understandable.

458 Sharmuta  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:46:28pm

re: #451 MandyManners

She'd toss her to the Muslims if given the chance?

Mandy- we're talking about a woman who's response to the two girls' honor killings in Texas was "so what"? and to equate it to Christians killing women too. She's a sick, demented hater.

459 JeremyR  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:46:39pm

Gonna call it a night. Good night Savage, Mandy and all you other fine lizard friends.

460 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:46:43pm

re: #450 Sharmuta

I think I was early on the scene but only because other people were there first.

461 Tom Kratman  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:47:38pm

re: #426 stevieray

If I recall my history correctly, the ethnically "pure" nations of today's Europe are post-WWI creations. When the empires broke down after the First World War, many of the new states were partitioned ethnically, and the remaining mixed states were further divided after WWII.

In Niall Ferguson's "The War of the World," he credits that ethnic cleansing as being more responsible for the subsequent peace in Europe than NATO, the Warsaw Pact, or the post-war exhaustion.

He's got a point, unsavory though it be.

462 realwest  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:47:43pm

Uh, sorry to go back OT but I could only get this far:
" Yet recently LGF again publicly attacked Gates of Vienna and The Brussels Journal, and Johnson has continued posting negative remarks about the website Atlas Shrugs."
Now I confess that I can't get on LGF as often nor for as long as I used to but I don't think there's been very many days when I haven't been on early in the morning and - for me, at least - late and night and I always check the sidebar or front page to see what Charles has put up as threads for the day.
And I have to confess that not only do I not recall Charles publishing any attacks on the GOV or the BJ, but I'm very sure he has not posted negative remarks about Atlas Shrugs.
The reason I'm so sure of Atlas Shrugs is because that is the one blog, one person, actually, to whom I think Charles has been overly courteous and patient. I can never forget her remarks about Charles being aligned with CAIR, nor the vicious personal attacks on Charles which she allowed against Charles in her comments (her comments are- or at least used to be - moderated, which means she has to read and approve any and all comments on her blog).
Charles - up until that fateful day, had been her self-professed Blogfather - had helped her in innumerable ways in setting up her blog and in helping it keep motoring along. Indeed I even helped her because when her blog first came out it had her full name, her telephone number and the fact that she has more than one child. I called her, introduced myself to her and explained why she should post haste remove the phone number, at least. She was gracious and grateful for the tip.
Then, years later she attacked Charles and I've always felt that Charles was much too gentlemanly in his response/dealings with her (sorry Charles but that's how I feel). That she would also state words to the effect that everyone who was in Occupied Nazi Europe was a collaborator was not only historically wrong but histrionic at the expense of good people - some of them LGFer's who had had their relatives murdered by the Nazi's in Occupied Europe as they fought the Nazi's as part of the Resistance Movements.
So I do believe I would know if Charles had posted negative remarks about Atlass Shrugs and he has not.
After reading that introduction, I refuse to read any further into Fjordman's article. He started out with a lie and I needed to read no further to know he'd add a passel full of them throughout the rest of the article.

463 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:47:54pm

re: #454 Tom Kratman

Sorry if I was a bit short earlier. We've had very tense debate about this in the past with people who've refused to acknowledge the evidence. No worries.

464 MandyManners  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:49:03pm

re: #458 Sharmuta

Mandy- we're talking about a woman who's response to the two girls' honor killings in Texas was "so what"? and to equate it to Christians killing women too. She's a sick, demented hater.

Oh, no. She calls herself a Christian?

465 Purple Prose  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:49:17pm

re: #426 stevieray

If I recall my history correctly, the ethnically "pure" nations of today's Europe are post-WWI creations. When the empires broke down after the First World War, many of the new states were partitioned ethnically, and the remaining mixed states were further divided after WWII.

The mixing goes back much farther than that. Just look at the history of conquests and migrations. Europe is among the mixed of all human populations on Earth. There are African populations that are far more distant from one another than any European group, which is actually another argument that we all originated from Africa.

Basically, if you look at DNA, Homo sapiens is a very young species, all of us going back about 100,000 years to an original group in Africa.

So it is completely legitimate to say that culturally we are in a state of immediate danger from Islamists, but in terms of genetic identity, we are pretty much distant cousins of every other human on the planet.

You can take a squirrel from North America and from Europe and find far more divergence genetically than between an Eskimo and a Zulu.

That said, we need to focus on cultural differences, and maybe that is Charles' point. I don't know I am not in Charles' head, even though he is my cousin and your cousin. :)

There are far more cultural differences between people than genetic differences. These cultural differences are obviously very recent, but hard fought and of great importance if we are to progress beyond the state of war, discord and oppression.

Islamists want war, discord and oppression. They are simply at a much more primitive state of cultural evolution, if you will, than the West. However, the irony is that the West, in evolving culturally, has come up with the notion of multiculturalism. This notion may well be the death of the West, unless we can stand up and say: we are not racist, the human species is too young to have clear and defined races, but we have cultural differences, and we don't want Islamic totalitarianism as our culture.

466 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:49:41pm
467 Roger  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:50:17pm

re: #441 TalkinKamel

Didn't hear anything and haven't read enough to know their timeline. Just sometimes I sit and think what would I do if I were so and so etc. And then seeing those combination of words you are referring to, they are as expected along with the invite thing.

468 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:50:29pm
469 infidelia  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:50:38pm

re: #457 Steffan

If you haven't already read it, I recommend Jonah Goldberg's book Liberal Fascism quite highly.

It explains in detail the fascist roots of modern Progressivism.

It makes what passes for the philosophy of Hillary, Obama, Kos, and Al Gore much more understandable.

All that plus a great, great dust jacket you can use to drive leftard acquaintences into amusing hissy fits of indignation.

470 Sharmuta  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:51:39pm

re: #462 realwest

I noticed that lie as well. But then- why should we be surprised he's being dishonest now? Seems to me he and his side have been engaged in dishonesty this entire time.

471 Tom Kratman  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:51:57pm

re: #444 Sharmuta

Tom Kratman- use the tag storm and look up, vlaams belang, vlaams blok, fascist and neo-nazi. Hope that helps.

Your nickname just rips me up. ;)

Yeah, I saw. Does it pop up Stormfront? They probably think I'm on their side.

One of the things I'll never quite forgive the Nazis for is giving nationalism a bad name.

472 Sharmuta  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:52:42pm

re: #468 savage_nation

I didn't. storagemanager was the first to bring it over,and it was one of the most disgusting things I've ever read.

473 ggt  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:52:54pm

re: #458 Sharmuta

Phyllis Chessler on PJM has been doing a fantastic job keeping this story alive. I listened to her podcast with the family members of the "mother".

Dympha is not a Christian.

474 Thanos  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:52:59pm

Tom, your book does look interesting, I'll put it in the stack of stuff to read.

475 Globular Cluster  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:54:42pm

re: #407 Purple Prose

Actually, in direct DNA-based support of your argument, the modern Finnish are genetically very closely related to other Scandinavian populations, while Hungarians have been, not unexpectedly, considerably mixed with German and Slavic populations. So the mixing is there. The idea of a pure race is bogus.

However, language is something else, and one has to be careful inferring anything from language. That's my point, not questioning your main argument that Europeans and every other human group are mixed genetically. You are right there, and the DNA bears it out. I have just learned that languages are a very poor predictor of relationships, so you have to look at DNA.

I agree with you, and well know that language is a poor determinant of race. I believe that Finns are closely related genetically to other Scandinavians. Still, Slavic languages are Indo-European, and Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, and Icelandic are Indo-European, but Finnish is Finno-Ugric, and the Sami of Finland have a different genome than the Finns. Also, I wonder whether Sami and Saamid (Samoyed) (now known as the Nenets) are related words, and both groups have traditionally herded reindeer, and the Samoyed language is Finno-Ugric.

I am not a linguist or biologist, but the point is something is very interesting and bizarre here -- and potentially meaningful in terms of migrations. Whether anything can be positively deduced from it is another question.

476 Thanos  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:54:59pm

Talks resume with Baitullah even though he's still attacking. I have little hope for the gov't of Pakistan.

[Link: www.nawaiwaqtgroup.com...]

477 realwest  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:55:18pm

re: #463 Killgore Trout Indeed there have been "tense" debates about the Fascists in Europe out here. Indeed, iirc, Babba Zee did SO much research on the Matter ("The DeWinter of Our Discontent" sticks out in my mind) that Charles actually "made" (or at least called her) and LGF "Operative".
Charles has published SO MUCH evidence about these fascistic assholes, NONE OF WHICH THEY HAVE TRIED TO REFUTE, that Fjordman could still "side" with them leads me to the almost inescapable conclusion that he is one of them.

478 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:55:28pm
479 Racer X  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:56:39pm

Saw Speed Racer today.

I though it was awesome!

480 Thanos  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:57:22pm

re: #475 Globular Cluster

I agree with you, and well know that language is a poor determinant of race. I believe that Finns are closely related genetically to other Scandinavians. Still, Slavic languages are Indo-European, and Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, and Icelandic are Indo-European, but Finnish is Finno-Ugric, and the Sami of Finland have a different genome than the Finns. Also, I wonder whether Sami and Saamid (Samoyed) (now known as the Nenets) are related words, and both groups have traditionally herded reindeer, and the Samoyed language is Finno-Ugric.

I am not a linguist or biologist, but the point is something is very interesting and bizarre here -- and potentially meaningful in terms of migrations. Whether anything can be positively deduced from it is another question.

I remember reading somewhere that there's a pocket of Ugric and even some Balto equivalents in the high passes of some Valleys north of the Kashmir. I found that passing strange.

481 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:57:31pm
482 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:57:31pm

re: #477 realwest

Babba did some great research on the topic.

483 Sharmuta  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:58:08pm

re: #473 ggt

Dr. Chesler is a hero of mine. I've learned much from her and couldn't be more proud to hear she's working tirelessly on that story.

484 Thanos  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:58:57pm

ack! It's late; time for some sleeps. See you all on the morrow friends.

485 stevieray  Sun, May 11, 2008 8:59:33pm

re: #461 Tom Kratman

In Niall Ferguson's "The War of the World," he credits that ethnic cleansing as being more responsible for the subsequent peace in Europe than NATO, the Warsaw Pact, or the post-war exhaustion.

He's got a point, unsavory though it be.

Just googled that book and read a few reviews. I'm gonna have to read it.

486 neocon hippie  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:00:12pm

I'll echo the praise for Liberal Fascism. It's a well-researched and -written book that ties a lot of threads together. One point that comes to mind at the moment is how during the 1920's-30's that Mussolini was highly praised by folks in the "Progressive" movement, and that Italian Fascism was seen as a variation of the "experiment" happening in Soviet Russia. Goldberg gives a lot of examples of this praise.

487 Render  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:00:19pm

re: #387 Tom Kratman

VB was founded by holocaust deniers Karel Dillen (convicted thereof) and Roland Raes (trials still pending).

Karel Dillen maintained a lifelong friendship and political alliance with exiled former Rexist and Belgian Waffen SS leader Leon DeGrelle. This in addition to his known alliances with other, better known, European fascist parties like FN and BNP. This in addition to his other lesser known alliances to American fascist groups and leaders, such as David Duke, Don Black

[Link: www.tau.ac.il...]

The current leadership of VB was handpicked by Dillen and Raes and while it takes pains to conceal its back round and history, it only does so under threat of Belgian law.

VB (like BNP) members currently (still) have their very own section at the David Duke/Don Black run Stormfront website.

===

Tom it just goes on and on. The evidence condemning VB would fill a rather sizable book, even without known leftist sources. If we added in the known leftist sources, it would be a series.

We too (here at LGF) have been accused of being fascists. We've also been called Leftists.

We're neither and never were.

RIGHT DOWN
THE MIDDLE,
R

488 Tom Kratman  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:01:14pm

re: #474 Thanos

Tom, your book does look interesting, I'll put it in the stack of stuff to read.

Warning! Warning!

It's (Hell, any of them are) pretty disturbing, Thanos.

489 Kosh's Shadow  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:02:40pm

re: #457 Steffan

If you haven't already read it, I recommend Jonah Goldberg's book Liberal Fascism quite highly.

It explains in detail the fascist roots of modern Progressivism.

It makes what passes for the philosophy of Hillary, Obama, Kos, and Al Gore much more understandable.

I read David Horowtz's "Unholy Alliance". Also good.

490 Sharmuta  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:02:57pm

I found storagemanager's post on the Texas honor killings from dymphna.

It's a disgusting display of racist relativism that she ends by saying we don't have much room to judge. Vile.

491 realwest  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:02:59pm

re: #470 Sharmuta Hi Sharm - yes, I know, but there are LGFer's out here who are so new they weren't around for those confrontations and I did want to give them some context before I posted my #477.

492 Purple Prose  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:05:48pm

re: #475 Globular Cluster

I agree with you, and well know that language is a poor determinant of race. I believe that Finns are closely related genetically to other Scandinavians. Still, Slavic languages are Indo-European, and Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, and Icelandic are Indo-European, but Finnish is Finno-Ugric, and the Sami of Finland have a different genome than the Finns. Also, I wonder whether Sami and Saamid (Samoyed) (now known as the Nenets) are related words, and both groups have traditionally herded reindeer, and the Samoyed language is Finno-Ugric.

I am not a linguist or biologist, but the point is something is very interesting and bizarre here -- and potentially meaningful in terms of migrations. Whether anything can be positively deduced from it is another question.

Well, if we take the case at hand, it means that those who brought the language to the Finns, Estonians and Hungarians came from one group, but that they did so with varying degrees of conquest, colonization, co-option, etc. Look at the Romans. They brought their language to large parts of Europe, but were never anything like a genetic majority amongst the populace.

The interesting thing is that both Finns and Hungarians share a related non-Indo-European language of the Finno-Ugric family, but that genetically you could not determine any more relationship between them than you could between Basques and Slovenians. Language like culture transmits beyond kinship groups and can remain even after groups have mixed with different populations as to be completely unrelated to whatever small founder group might have brought the language in the first place.

493 JHW  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:06:42pm

re: #471 Tom Kratman

BabbaZee did a lot of great research on this also, lots and lots of material.

Lebensborn to Make a Reich

In particular the entries for Nov. 8 and Dec. 3. She also provides many additional links.

494 Globular Cluster  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:07:35pm

re: #465 Purple Prose

...

Islamists want war, discord and oppression. They are simply at a much more primitive state of cultural evolution, if you will, than the West. However, the irony is that the West, in evolving culturally, has come up with the notion of multiculturalism. This notion may well be the death of the West, unless we can stand up and say: we are not racist, the human species is too young to have clear and defined races, but we have cultural differences, and we don't want Islamic totalitarianism as our culture.

Excellent post. ;-)

My only quibble is that the "West" (I hate the word in this context) has been less barbaric than Islam only in the last 60 years or so. How many innocent people were killed by the Nazis, by Stalin (if you count Russia west of the Urals as European)? Far, far more than Islam ever murdered.

We certainly do need to combat Islamism with all our resources, but I have a hole in my heart when I think of Europe. It wasn't long ago that we had the Holocaust and two world wars. How long will this modern, tolerant West last for us? In more depressed moments, one wonders, even without Islam, if the current liberalism of the West is just a blip on the radar screen that shows a larger landscape of unthinkable brutality.

495 realwest  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:08:26pm

re: #482 Killgore Trout
Indeed she did, as did Charles and some other LGFer's.
It was all so strange - to read Charles caution - and that's all it was, really- to the good guy contra-Jihadists in Brussels about allowing themselves to be used by the WN's and Neo-Nazi's, and then read Atlas's extraordinarily harsh attack on Charles for issuing that caution was almost surreal, you know?

496 Zimriel  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:09:58pm

Fjordman's argument seems to boil down to, "well, Expo has fascists too!" which is true (in the Wilsonian or Leninist sense).

He must have us confused with the Little Green Expo blog, which I'm sure is a major web sensation in some parallel universe. But whenever I read this blog's mention of Expo, it generally cites it for its facts and doesn't bother with its editorial opinion. That Expo's facts about the SD etc are correct is, ironically, supported by Fjordman himself who doesn't once tell us a fact which Expo got wrong.

(And Fjordman's comments have already attracted a few Jew-baiting nuts who say that we oppose European Christians ... the Jews I know are fine with European Christians, they just don't approve of neo-pagan fascists, for some weird reason)

497 MandyManners  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:09:59pm

re: #494 Globular Cluster

((((((GC))))))

498 infidelia  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:10:51pm

re: #490 Sharmuta

I found storagemanager's post on the Texas honor killings from dymphna.

It's a disgusting display of racist relativism that she ends by saying we don't have much room to judge. Vile.

Meanwhile, Islam Said, brother of the murdered girls, still idolizes his father and sends vicious obscenity-laden screaming hate messages his cow of a mother's relatives who are trying to see to it that his monster of a "dad" is brought to justice. Text case of your "home-grown" little potential jihadist right down to the borderline personality issues.

499 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:10:58pm
500 Racer X  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:11:08pm

re: #481 savage_nation

Did Chim-chim behave himself?

No. Haha. The movie was, imo, just like the old cartoons. But with awesome special effects. Christina Ricci was nice too.

501 Tom Kratman  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:11:10pm

re: #487 Render

VB was founded by holocaust deniers Karel Dillen (convicted thereof) and Roland Raes (trials still pending).

Karel Dillen maintained a lifelong friendship and political alliance with exiled former Rexist and Belgian Waffen SS leader Leon DeGrelle. This in addition to his known alliances with other, better known, European fascist parties like FN and BNP. This in addition to his other lesser known alliances to American fascist groups and leaders, such as David Duke, Don Black

[Link: www.tau.ac.il...]

The current leadership of VB was handpicked by Dillen and Raes and while it takes pains to conceal its back round and history, it only does so under threat of Belgian law.

VB (like BNP) members currently (still) have their very own section at the David Duke/Don Black run Stormfront website.

===

Tom it just goes on and on. The evidence condemning VB would fill a rather sizable book, even without known leftist sources. If we added in the known leftist sources, it would be a series.

We too (here at LGF) have been accused of being fascists. We've also been called Leftists.

We're neither and never were.

RIGHT DOWN
THE MIDDLE,
R

I looked at some of the other evidence. Yep, looks like a duck in a brown uniform, goosesteps like a duck, quacks out Die Fahne Hoch like a duck...and raises one wing in a Hitler salute...it's a Nazi, all righty.

Which leads to another observation. If you're a center right (which in American terms is somewhat left of center) Euro, and you're scared to death at your coming cultural extinction, and no one, but no one, is doing anything to head that extinction off...except for the nut cases...where do you go?

502 Sharmuta  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:12:18pm

re: #491 realwest

Hi Sharm - yes, I know, but there are LGFer's out here who are so new they weren't around for those confrontations and I did want to give them some context before I posted my #477.

I can understand that. But my point was more to fjordy being dishonest- that's one leopard we can be sure is not likely to change his spots.

503 Render  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:12:18pm

man...

I wish I could type as fast as some of you people...

STARING DOWN
THE KEYBOARD,
R

504 realwest  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:12:27pm

re: #487 Render Excellent Post my friend.
Thanks!

505 Zimriel  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:13:19pm

re: #371 TalkinKamel

I really don't like the sound of that upcoming debate (debate? What's to debate?) about the origins of Christian anti-semetism. And I thought Fjordman, GoV and Pamela were all fearless anti-jihad fighters; so why would they go so far off-track as to have a group discussion about something so completely off topic from the WoT?

I really, really, don't like the sound of this. . .

I suspect we're going to hear a lot about Solzhenitsyn's "Dvesti let vmeste". To be forewarned...

506 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:13:22pm
507 ggt  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:14:33pm

re: #495 realwest

I remember it well. I quit Atlas that day. Unsubscribed from her digest and haven't been back since.

508 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:16:08pm
509 ggt  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:16:18pm

re: #498 infidelia

The mother is with the father and her son --purposely evading her family.

510 MandyManners  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:19:37pm

re: #509 ggt

The mother is with the father and her son --purposely evading her family.

She's siding with the man who killed her daughters? I'd be divorcing him.

511 ggt  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:21:25pm

Texas Honor Killings --Phyllis Chesler.

512 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:21:42pm
513 infidelia  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:21:56pm

re: #501 Tom Kratman

I looked at some of the other evidence. Yep, looks like a duck in a brown uniform, goosesteps like a duck, quacks out Die Fahne Hoch like a duck...and raises one wing in a Hitler salute...it's a Nazi, all righty.

Which leads to another observation. If you're a center right (which in American terms is somewhat left of center) Euro, and you're scared to death at your coming cultural extinction, and no one, but no one, is doing anything to head that extinction off...except for the nut cases...where do you go?

We are not that far gone, but the Obama phenomenon has shaken me to the core. I haven't seen behavior like this since I "retired" from investingating cults about 10 years ago. If you ever see that man with a pitcher of kool-aid, run for your lives.

514 Roger  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:22:45pm

re: #501 Tom Kratman

You make an effort at mind renewing. It takes putting minds on good material for some weeks but the modern world of communication and info can sure drown this out. And too many who should know better are all caught up in the multi-kulti thing to make themselves useful and other people don't have ears that hear anything. Jonah wouldn't be welcome.

515 Pawn of the Oppressor  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:24:00pm

Fjordman needs an editor. He's become the Robert Jordan of closeted Nazi wannabes.

I like how reactionary freakshows, intellectually descended from National Socialists, now accuse a centrist blog of being left-wing for reacting against leftists who are mislabeled as rightists by other leftists in the first place.

Or something.

Wait, what?

516 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:24:13pm

re: #501 Tom Kratman

If you're a center right (which in American terms is somewhat left of center) Euro, and you're scared to death at your coming cultural extinction, and no one, but no one, is doing anything to head that extinction off...except for the nut cases...where do you go?

That's been another hot topic too. There aren't many parties for the good Euros to gravitate too. But there are some. Geert Wilders does a damn fine job of criticizing Islam without neo-Nazi ties. Also Boris, the new mayor of London, has criticized Islam without any connection to the BNP. Politics is a matter of supply and demand. If people want to oppose radical Islamists without neo-nazi baggage parties will become available.

517 BlueCanuck  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:24:49pm

re: #492 Purple Prose

I read a book about a year ago called "The Lost History of the Druids". Fascinating and in depth analysis of what we currently know of that part of celtic tradition. He pieced together parts of tradition and history that have survived to this day, despite the persecution from the Roman Empire. One curious fact that kept popping up was how close some styles of music and poetry were related to Indian veddas. Migrations have been going on for a long time. And mankind keeps finding himself in strange places.

518 Render  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:26:11pm

re: #501 Tom Kratman

I speak daily* with Europeans who have the same question. The general consensus seems to be that they should form entirely new parties.

In the words of one of my Brit friends - "Isn't it time we had a center-center party?"

*via the Teamspeak and Ventrillo VOIP programs used by the adult on-line gaming community.

HOLD
THE
LINE,
R

519 Frank_Mtl  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:26:39pm

re: #340 Tom Kratman
Vlaams Belang's Ugly Face

520 BlueCanuck  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:26:39pm

re: #515 Pawn of the Oppressor

Many updings. Good analogy with Robert Jordan. Two people that don't know how to come to good conclusion and ending.

521 RememberSekhmet?  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:27:03pm

re: #466 savage_nation

Good night.

Weet dreams

522 realwest  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:28:31pm

re: #501 Tom Kratman
" you're scared to death at your coming cultural extinction, and no one, but no one, is doing anything to head that extinction off...except for the nut cases...where do you go?"
Oddly enough, that was one of the arguments that GoV, BJ and others used to justify fascism in European - the New Fascism, I mean and the answers, which admittedly may not be palatable to many are: you stand up for yourself; you find political leaders who share your concerns (but are not fascists) or you find other like minded individuals and create your own movement, parties whatever - you simply can't allow the Fascists into your foxhole, even if you are afraid of the Islamic hordes, to rationalize any alliance with them.
Now I know I'm an American and have been told many times that I miss the "nuances" of European politics, but even so, those still seem to me to be the correct answers.

523 infidelia  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:28:35pm

re: #520 BlueCanuck

Many updings. Good analogy with Robert Jordan. Two people that don't know how to come to good conclusion and ending.

I'll second that and nominate JK Rowling for the third slot.

524 Render  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:29:17pm

re: #519 Frank_Mtl

Gambini rules!

Now would somebody donate the $20 to him so he can clean that video up?

HEH,
R

525 realwest  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:30:26pm

re: #503 Render ROTFLMAO! Welcome to MY world my friend! I can't think fast enough nor type fast enough to keep up out here most days!

526 infidelia  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:30:54pm

re: #522 realwest

" you're scared to death at your coming cultural extinction, and no one, but no one, is doing anything to head that extinction off...except for the nut cases...where do you go?"
Oddly enough, that was one of the arguments that GoV, BJ and others used to justify fascism in European - the New Fascism, I mean and the answers, which admittedly may not be palatable to many are: you stand up for yourself; you find political leaders who share your concerns (but are not fascists) or you find other like minded individuals and create your own movement, parties whatever - you simply can't allow the Fascists into your foxhole, even if you are afraid of the Islamic hordes, to rationalize any alliance with them.
Now I know I'm an American and have been told many times that I miss the "nuances" of European politics, but even so, those still seem to me to be the correct answers.

527 Yankee Division Son  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:30:54pm

Vas ist das Nuts?

528 ggt  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:30:59pm

My wonderful family gave me a box of chocolate for Mother's Day. I have to tell you:

Fannie Mae Turtles must be added to the list of basic food groups--after Chocolate, Garlic, and Fresh Coffee.

529 BlueCanuck  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:32:15pm

re: #525 realwest

ROTFLMAO! Welcome to MY world my friend! I can't think fast enough nor type fast enough to keep up out here most days!

As one of the fortunate few that can type fast, my condolences. I got started in High school on electrics. Fine tuned on an old cast iron frame Underwood. Now with modern computers the words just fly off the tips of my fingers.

/now if only I had something worthwile to say more often. ;)

530 infidelia  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:32:32pm

re: #526 infidelia

OK, when I post the quote and forget the comment it's time to go beddie-bye. Nitall!

531 BlueCanuck  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:33:04pm

re: #528 ggt

Hmmm, would you be interested in a dark chocolate with garlic coffee flavour? :D

532 RememberSekhmet?  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:33:12pm

On a happier note, look what I found on YouTube

AfroCelt SoundSystem---the beginning

and

Part 2

533 ggt  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:33:48pm

re: #518 Render

"The general consensus seems to be that they should form entirely new parties"

Major blunder. A consensus is general.

/grammar police out

534 itellu3times  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:34:17pm

re: #500 Racer X

No. Haha. The movie was, imo, just like the old cartoons. But with awesome special effects. Christina Ricci was nice too.

The images looked waaaay too busy to me (just on the trailers and such, haven't seen the flick), and I guess that's the criticism of the plot, too. Too much like a videogame, ... OK, they did that on purpose, but it loses me.

And apparently the weekend BO is awful.

535 ggt  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:36:22pm

re: #531 BlueCanuck

I've never had garlic flavored coffee --but the chocolate kind is yummy!

536 realwest  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:36:44pm

re: #507 ggt Hi ggt! Yes I imagine most all of us who were around that day - and in the succeeding days, remember that quite clearly. Even though my first reaction was shock that Pamela (Atlas) would attack Charles that way, I knew immediately when she said Charles had aligned himself with CAIR that she'd gone off the rails, but couldn't understand why. And, quite frankly, other than perhaps her perception that Charles had "rained on her parade" (don't go look, but take my word for it: she had plenty of photos and I dare anyone to find a photo that didn't have Pamela in it!) I still don't understand her, but am past the point of caring about her.

537 Tom Kratman  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:36:52pm

re: #514 Roger

You make an effort at mind renewing. It takes putting minds on good material for some weeks but the modern world of communication and info can sure drown this out. And too many who should know better are all caught up in the multi-kulti thing to make themselves useful and other people don't have ears that hear anything. Jonah wouldn't be welcome.

I don't think that saves you. You feel too alone. And when you feel that way, you gravitate to whatever aid and comfort there may be.

I'm kind of with Steyn on this: Europe may well go fascist...and lose anyway.

538 itellu3times  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:37:34pm

fjordman - we get it, we reject it, stop whining.

539 ggt  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:37:39pm

I didn't like the original Speed Racer --it was just something to watch until Gilligan's Island started on the independent station after school.

540 DesertSage  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:39:07pm

Is this the evolution thread?

541 itellu3times  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:39:24pm

re: #54 Killian Bundy

(fjordman) intend to write about the causes of Christian anti-Semitism.

He has, like, something new to say about it?

542 ggt  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:39:29pm

re: #540 DesertSage

groan --don't start! ;)

543 BlueCanuck  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:39:45pm

re: #540 DesertSage

Is this the evolution thread?

Back in your hole foul troll, your kind have no power here.

/just kidding. :)

544 Render  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:39:51pm

re: #533 ggt

I suppose thats what I get for paraphrasing an Englishman who was paraphrasing a Frenchman who was arguing with a Spaniard and a Pole.

COMPFUSED,
R

545 DesertSage  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:40:01pm

re: #542 ggt

groan --don't start! ;)

oops...:')

546 itellu3times  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:40:03pm

re: #540 DesertSage

Is this the evolution thread?

It will be in a billion years or so.

547 DesertSage  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:41:18pm

So I guess we're still talking about this Fjordman character?

548 MandyManners  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:41:24pm

re: #540 DesertSage

Is this the evolution thread?

*whack*

549 realwest  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:42:04pm

re: #530 infidelia Good night and thank for that post #530 - I thought there was something odd about your quoting me and that's all!

550 Render  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:42:20pm

re: #547 DesertSage

OFFICER
ON
DECK,
R

551 realwest  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:44:02pm

re: #528 ggt Uh, certainly no disrpect intended to you, or the turtles, but honestly garlic and Pizza are two of the Five Basic Food Groups! LOL!

552 NY Nana  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:44:03pm

re: #540 DesertSage

Is this the evolution thread?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRGHHHHHHHHHH!

553 slokat  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:44:06pm

re: #540 DesertSage

if only it would evolve into being about sentient life...

554 DesertSage  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:45:33pm

re: #552 NY Nana

Nana! Did you have a nice Mothers Day?

555 slokat  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:46:35pm

I'd like to climb out of this thread into the next... but it hasn't occurred yet.

556 realwest  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:46:38pm

re: #548 MandyManners
Good one Mandy! He was asking for it!

557 The Other Les  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:47:00pm

The Heights Theater is running the 70 mm print of 2001 : A Space Odyssey this week.

The program for the 7:10 pm showing on Saturday started with a three minutes of an interview Keir Dullea gave to a local television personality in 1965 (Mel Jass of WTCN-11). It was a bit silly. After the feature they showed a print of the sequel, 2010. They also have free refills on soda pop.

All in all it was a good night.

558 Zimriel  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:47:02pm

There's talk that the new Indy is re: #425 infidelia

Tom, this is a bit OT, but have you run into resistance from bookstore chains over The Caliphate? I ask because I work for that bastion of free speech (where's the sarc button), B****rs (and I'm paranoid), and the book has been listed as in-transit-gee-we-don't-know-where-the-h ell-it-is for about a month now. The also appear to have no plans to stock Willful Blindness or Defending the West, and The Legacy of Islamic Anti-Semitism may be a no-show as well.

Possible some of those are being held up by the publisher or back for re-editing. I've been awaiting Ibn Warraq's "Which Koran?" for years now. Just like, back when "What the Koran Really Says" was first announced in early 2002 or so, it took 'til 2003 for me to get a copy. Prometheus Books need to open the windows to their offices, too much damn vapour...

559 ggt  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:47:05pm

re: #544 Render

I come from a family of teachers --such things could result in a lecture. We kids learned to avoid English Lectures.

560 Zimriel  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:48:01pm

There's talk that the new Indy is going to suck. I must admit I've not been impressed with the trailers...

561 ggt  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:48:07pm

re: #551 realwest

depends on the Pizza. Being from Chicagoland, I am picky.

562 ggt  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:48:26pm

How ya' doin' tonite, rw?

563 Tom Kratman  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:49:23pm

re: #522 realwest

" you're scared to death at your coming cultural extinction, and no one, but no one, is doing anything to head that extinction off...except for the nut cases...where do you go?"
Oddly enough, that was one of the arguments that GoV, BJ and others used to justify fascism in European - the New Fascism, I mean and the answers, which admittedly may not be palatable to many are: you stand up for yourself; you find political leaders who share your concerns (but are not fascists) or you find other like minded individuals and create your own movement, parties whatever - you simply can't allow the Fascists into your foxhole, even if you are afraid of the Islamic hordes, to rationalize any alliance with them.
Now I know I'm an American and have been told many times that I miss the "nuances" of European politics, but even so, those still seem to me to be the correct answers.

What's missing in that is a) "if you can" and b) "if they're there to be found."

I'm not sure that b) they are...or a) they can.

It's a little interesting. One would think, from a purely propaganda cum semiotics viewpoint, that those folks would have come up with some different symbols for themselves. Alternatively, some centrist - but vehemently centrist - group would need a symbol. Could be a cross/crucifix, I suppose, but the bulk of Europe, Western Europe, anyway, wants little or nothing to do with Christianity. Something a little simpler and more moving than a donkey or elephant.

Has anyone coopted the Lambda (upside down V) of Lakedaemonia (Sparta) yet? Most of the useful Roman symbols have been used, overused, and abused.

564 Purple Prose  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:49:42pm

re: #494 Globular Cluster

Excellent post. ;-)

My only quibble is that the "West" (I hate the word in this context) has been less barbaric than Islam only in the last 60 years or so. How many innocent people were killed by the Nazis, by Stalin (if you count Russia west of the Urals as European)? Far, far more than Islam ever murdered.

We certainly do need to combat Islamism with all our resources, but I have a hole in my heart when I think of Europe. It wasn't long ago that we had the Holocaust and two world wars. How long will this modern, tolerant West last for us? In more depressed moments, one wonders, even without Islam, if the current liberalism of the West is just a blip on the radar screen that shows a larger landscape of unthinkable brutality.

From the standpoint of their treatment of Jews, you are right. The Muslim world has always practiced dhimmitude, but Europe has practiced more aggressive anti-Semitism since the middle ages, obviously culminating in the Holocaust.

However, Europe has also produced most of the advances in science, art and culture that make the modern world. Europe is a paradox. It reminds me of the quote from "The Third Man," which is kind of famous:

[I]n Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.

Both European countries, but there's a point. Anyway, there's something special about Europe - violent, unstable, changing Europe, but also practical, forward-thinking, questioning Europe - that allowed it to produce the world we live in. However, yes, there is always the possibility of violence and war.

Still, if Europe becomes Islamicized, it's all lost. The greatness will be gone. There will be erasures of history that will make the Taliban blowing up ancient gigantic Buddha statues seem like child's play.

565 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:50:26pm

re: #532 RememberSekhmet?

Nice!

566 ggt  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:51:20pm

I am a little confused on the "cultural extinction" concept. If one is out there spending one's money and is involved in the political process, how can the cultlure become extinct.

If everyone is buying bikinis and not burkhinis seems to me the culture is surviving rather well.

help

567 Psaturn  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:51:59pm

re: #561 ggt

depends on the Pizza. Being from Chicagoland, I am picky.

ggt, I know what you mean! Who could top Connie's, Gino's, Giovanni's, Home Run Inn...

But I found a Chicago style pizzeria that topped them all...and it is not in Chicago...it is in Oakland, California...

Called Zachary's Pizza...maybe we could have Zombie send a picture over this way...probably Zombie tried it...

568 blue_like_jazz  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:52:25pm

re: #449 TalkinKamel


I disliked the increasingly strident, racist note, however, and I finally stopped reading it completely when Dymphna stated that it would be wrong to support Hirsi Ali, because she was a horrible, unchristian atheist.

Talk about hypocritical!

It's wrong to side with Hirsi Ali, one of the most articulate antiterrorists around because she doesn't believe in Jesus, but it's okay to associate with anti- Muslims who hate Jews?

Talk about cognitive dissonance. Get your theology straight, dumbass.

569 realwest  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:52:36pm

re: #561 ggt Oh. Dear.
and Sigh.
Chicago Pizza isn't PIZZA - it's a deep dish of what ingredients usually go on a pizza, but real pizza is extra think cut, NY syle pizza: 1/4" crust, fresh tomato sauce, garlic, oregeno, mozarella cheese and about a 1/2 cup of double extra virgin olive oil dripping off of it. Plus, of course, toppings like pepperoni, sausage, eggplant, onions and what not (but NOT pineapple)!

570 realwest  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:53:20pm

PIMF: thin not think.

571 RememberSekhmet?  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:54:10pm

re: #540 DesertSage

Is this the evolution thread?

Don't make me get my flying monkeys.

572 ggt  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:54:10pm

re: #569 realwest

extra thin crust! You mean that thing that is a basically a few toppings on a cracker is called a pizza?

573 BlueCanuck  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:54:20pm

re: #567 Psaturn

Doesn't seem like the kind of thing that zombie would dine on. Seriously. From what I gather zombie is into natural and holistic style foods. I know there have been discussions about this on a few dead threads.

574 The Other Les  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:54:38pm

re: #569 realwest

I could never understand why anyone would put pineapple on a pizza.

575 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:54:49pm
576 ggt  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:55:11pm

re: #569 realwest

It's a pizza PIE, real!

geesh

577 ggt  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:55:45pm

re: #574 The Other Les

My son loves it --Hawaiian Pizza. Canadian Bacon and Pineapple.

I don't understand either.

578 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:55:46pm

I'm in for a long night of peeling wallpaper and packing up the kitchen. tear out for the remodel start early tomorrow. I'm going to be hung over and sleep deprived followed by a day of banging and hammering.

579 RememberSekhmet?  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:55:54pm

re: #565 Killgore Trout

Nice!

My favorite by the real AfroCelt Sound System

WARNING: may cause involuntary toe tapping

580 The Other Les  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:55:58pm

re: #572 ggt

extra thin crust! You mean that thing that is a basically a few toppings on a cracker is called a pizza?

I haven't had a proper deep dish pizza in well over a decade.

I should do something about that.

581 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:56:25pm
582 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:56:38pm

re: #579 RememberSekhmet?

That's cool!

583 Tom Kratman  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:56:51pm

re: #463 Killgore Trout

Sorry if I was a bit short earlier. We've had very tense debate about this in the past with people who've refused to acknowledge the evidence. No worries.


No sweat. As I wrote, I hadn't then seen the evidence and have gotten jaded these last five decades over charges of "fascism."

584 BlueCanuck  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:57:01pm

re: #572 ggt

Don't knock the thin crust pizza. We have a chain of Italian restaraunts here in Toronto called Il Fornello. Make amazing thin crust wood fired oven pizzas. Even build your own toppings.

/first $50 personal pizza I ever saw.
//worked in one of them

585 realwest  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:57:03pm

Indeed, I'm really tired from a very long day today and a necessarily early start tomorrow, so I'm going to say to all y'all GOODNIGHT/GOOD MORNING and that I get to see you down the road.

Good night, All.

586 DesertSage  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:57:34pm

re: #574 The Other Les

I could never understand why anyone would put pineapple on a pizza.

I never order a pizza without pineapple.

587 RememberSekhmet?  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:57:34pm

re: #578 Killgore Trout

I'm in for a long night of peeling wallpaper and packing up the kitchen. tear out for the remodel start early tomorrow. I'm going to be hung over and sleep deprived followed by a day of banging and hammering.

Okay so when are you and the spouse gonna stop that and get to work?

*runs and ducks*

588 ggt  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:58:02pm

Liberal Fascism is already the top rated BOOK link. I looked and was suprised to find no one had posted it --so I did. We had so many discussions on it a few weeks back, I thought it was LGF required reading.

589 RememberSekhmet?  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:58:21pm

re: #582 Killgore Trout

That's cool!

Bellydance teacher introduced me. I miss bellydance. Haven't done it since the Little Blonde Guy was born

590 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:58:25pm

re: #583 Tom Kratman

We've all had that charge leveled against us and it's easy for the term to lose its meaning. Actually, the new fascists use this to their advantage.

591 DesertSage  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:58:31pm

re: #588 ggt

I read it.

592 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:58:38pm
593 slokat  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:58:48pm

canadian bacon & pineapple!

Have had a real good white garlic sauce with reindeer sausage pizza, too...

/heretic

594 RememberSekhmet?  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:59:03pm

re: #585 realwest

Indeed, I'm really tired from a very long day today and a necessarily early start tomorrow, so I'm going to say to all y'all GOODNIGHT/GOOD MORNING and that I get to see you down the road.

Good night, All.

Weet dreams, Realwest!

595 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 11, 2008 9:59:46pm

re: #589 RememberSekhmet?

It is interesting that African-Celtic fusion ends up sounding north African. Good belly dancing music.

596 Render  Sun, May 11, 2008 10:00:41pm

Fair warning y'all...

The Colonel is Airborne.

That means he's got a habit of jumping into the middle of the worst and swinging in all directions.

===

Mom used to wake my Dad up with a broomstick, so she could be out of range of the first two or three swings...

HIDE
N
SEEK,
R

597 MandyManners  Sun, May 11, 2008 10:01:05pm

re: #588 ggt

I'm still reading Oren's Power, Faith and Fantasy. I'd forgotten how the Brits and the U.S. screwed the Jews in the years following WWI with the restricted immigration while at the same time the Brits kept them out of Palestine.

598 BlueCanuck  Sun, May 11, 2008 10:01:15pm

re: #592 savage_nation

Holy crap, is that thing 3 feet across?

LOL, no. It's all in what you put on the sucker. High end ingredients, different cheeses. It was crazy, only reason I knew that was that someone screwed up and I got a slice of the result. Mmmmm gorgonzola.

/joys of being a dishwasher in a good diner.

599 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 10:01:31pm
600 neocon hippie  Sun, May 11, 2008 10:01:47pm

re: #567 Psaturn

ggt, I know what you mean! Who could top Connie's, Gino's, Giovanni's, Home Run Inn...

But I found a Chicago style pizzeria that topped them all...and it is not in Chicago...it is in Oakland, California...

Called Zachary's Pizza...maybe we could have Zombie send a picture over this way...probably Zombie tried it...

I live pretty close to Zachary's. It's not a place that I go to often but it is always mobbed, every day, all day.

601 realwest  Sun, May 11, 2008 10:02:22pm

re: #586 DesertSage
Ah geez, I just hadda come back for one last look and your post is what I see?
Well, each to his or her own, but I'm not surprised at you loving pineapple on (or, God Forbid in) your pizza; you are, after all, from La-La land!

;')

NOW I'M OUTTA HERE!

602 Tom Kratman  Sun, May 11, 2008 10:02:42pm

re: #564 Purple Prose

You know that quote from The Third Man is a fraud. Switzerland had no particular brotherly love at the time. They had masses of citizen-soldiers, available from their cantons for hire as mercenaries, noted for the most appalling butchery of prisoners and sheer belligerant guts and pugnacity. And what they got out of it wasn't the cuckoo clock, but the money from mercenary wages to begin the Swiss banking system.

603 RememberSekhmet?  Sun, May 11, 2008 10:03:08pm

We have a take-and-bake place called Papa Murphy's out our way. They make some good, if greasy, pizza.

604 ggt  Sun, May 11, 2008 10:03:51pm

re: #597 MandyManners

Put it up in the Book Link. We read and discuss so many books here, it's nice to have the reference to see what Lizards are reading.

605 NY Nana  Sun, May 11, 2008 10:04:33pm

re: #554 DesertSage

NY Grampa likes to share. He came down with a bug on Wed., his birthday, and I woke up with it. We had to cancel having the family over.

And since I have laryngitis, when the 2 granddaughters called? They said 'Hi, Grampa!'. And they were serious...and 1 lives in NJ, the other on LI. I will never live that one down!

First time in my life that we had to cancel Mother's Day...bummer. Everyone will be here next Sunday...

So, how's by you? ;)

606 DesertSage  Sun, May 11, 2008 10:05:23pm

re: #601 realwest

Well, each to his or her own, but I'm not surprised at you loving pineapple on (or, God Forbid in) your pizza; you are, after all, from La-La land!

That's usually my catch all excuse for all my eccentric behavior. :')

g'nite RW. Weet dreams.

607 Fat Jolly Penguin  Sun, May 11, 2008 10:05:30pm

re: #591 DesertSage

I read it.

So did I. My moonbat sister about popped a blood vessel when she saw I was reading it.

Good night everyone, and Happy Mother's Day!

608 ggt  Sun, May 11, 2008 10:05:47pm

re: #605 NY Nana

Happy Mom's Day nana! so sorry to hear you are gravelly.

609 savage_nation[deleted]  Sun, May 11, 2008 10:08:29pm
610 BlueCanuck  Sun, May 11, 2008 10:10:04pm

re: #609 savage_nation
I don't have strange tastes. I have interesting tastes. :)

/have tried many things.

611 NY Nana  Sun, May 11, 2008 10:17:24pm

re: #608 ggt

Happy Mom's Day nana! so sorry to hear you are gravelly.

Thanks! Not only am I gravelly, but damned snotty, too. Alas, it is after 1AM here...Mother's Day is over. I am still laughing when I remember the 5 and 8 year olds when they realized it was really me and not my husband.

Now there are 6 more days till we celebrate NY Grampa's birthday, and the now 8 year old's birthday, and our daughter and son in law's 4th wedding anniversary and a belated Mother's day!

The 8 year old got the giggles when she realized it really was me.

I just had the umpteenth cup of hot tea, and am going to try to be in bed by 2 AM NY time, like that will ever happen.

How was your day, BTW?

/Why is NY Grampa smirking when I try to talk?

612 Colonel Panik  Sun, May 11, 2008 10:18:27pm

re: #563 Tom Kratman


Has anyone coopted the Lambda (upside down V) of Lakedaemonia (Sparta) yet? Most of the useful Roman symbols have been used, overused, and abused.

Right To Keep and Bear Arms activists have adopted the phrase "Molon Labe" since the late 1990's and now DSA is making AR-15 lowers with that phrase and the Spartan Lambda symbol engraved on them but I have not yet seen it used in the context of a political party.

613 Edouard  Sun, May 11, 2008 10:30:42pm

Surely the Gore-bull warming effect from that blast of cattle methane emanating from Fjordman's screed will be enough to melt at least a minor Antarctic iceberg.

614 NY Nana  Sun, May 11, 2008 10:34:29pm

G'nite, all.

The winds from a storm we might get are coming in now, and as we are on the coast, on LI Sound, I am going to shut the computer down, just in case.

Sweet dreams! (I am a traditionalist!)

615 Tom Kratman  Sun, May 11, 2008 10:36:40pm

re: #612 Colonel Panik

Right To Keep and Bear Arms activists have adopted the phrase "Molon Labe" since the late 1990's and now DSA is making AR-15 lowers with that phrase and the Spartan Lambda symbol engraved on them but I have not yet seen it used in the context of a political party.

Yep. Forgot about those. 'Course, since the Euros are mostly disarmed, it wouldn't have a necessary ID as a gun rights symbol. Might work, then.

616 Render  Sun, May 11, 2008 10:37:21pm

re: #563 Tom Kratman

Yes.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

GORDON
FREEMAN,
R

617 Tom Kratman  Sun, May 11, 2008 11:10:39pm

re: #616 Render

Game covers don't count. ;)

Interestingly, I just went and looked at the BNP summary manifesto. Yep. Racist bastards.

It's interesting, because about 75-80% of that manifesto is fairly unobjectionable: secede from the EU (_I'd_ give money to support that), privatize, deport criminals without UK citizenship, etc. It's when you get into the "let's get rid of everybody who isn't white...oh, and the Eastern Europeans, too" parts that one gets...a little...peevish. Hell, even Vlaams Belang allows for assimilation.

I wonder about that. Is it because the Euros, not merely the multiculturalists, but Euros generally, don't have the first clue about how to assimilate? Haven't the cultural ability to assimilate? We can't expect them to do what they just can't do, I suppose.

618 Sharmuta  Sun, May 11, 2008 11:29:22pm

re: #583 Tom Kratman

No sweat. As I wrote, I hadn't then seen the evidence and have gotten jaded these last five decades over charges of "fascism."

I hope you'll forgive me for my earlier remark weeks ago, but I likewise am jaded over the fascists- mainly due to the treatment Charles and LGF have received because we're NOT interested in them.

619 Render  Sun, May 11, 2008 11:47:40pm

re: #617 Tom Kratman

Unfortunately, the Lambda symbol is trademarked by Valve Corp.

I played the WW2 mod of that game for almost a decade. Good stuff for teaching team (small unit combat) tactics, cheaply.

Switched to Call of Duty 4 just recently.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_of_Duty_4:_Moder n_Warfare

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JC3UMJ2It4

===

It's the same old bait-and-switch they've been running since the early 1930's. They promise to make the trains run on time, but they never tell anybody where those trains are going. Until its too late.

===

A3 - Woke up This Mornin

CHOSEN
ONES,
R

620 Render  Sun, May 11, 2008 11:49:43pm

re: #619 Render

wow...that weirded out some of the links.

PIECES
FALLING
OFF,
R

621 Tom Kratman  Sun, May 11, 2008 11:55:25pm

re: #618 Sharmuta

I hope you'll forgive me for my earlier remark weeks ago, but I likewise am jaded over the fascists- mainly due to the treatment Charles and LGF have received because we're NOT interested in them.

No big deal, provided that you _do_ go read up on the Siege of Vicksburg. Or US v. Ritter von Leeb. Or preferably both.

;)

I'm jaded with the use of the word, mostly. For actual fascists...interest is good to keep up. They bear watching. Curiously, I'm still not convinced those movements are precisely fascist, whatever fascist may be. Nazi? Yeah....maybe Nazi fits better. That word's overused, too, but it has a more precise definition and much the same set of symbols.

622 Syrah  Sun, May 11, 2008 11:57:15pm

re: #617 Tom Kratman

I wonder about that. Is it because the Euros, not merely the multiculturalists, but Euros generally, don't have the first clue about how to assimilate? Haven't the cultural ability to assimilate? We can't expect them to do what they just can't do, I suppose.

We can't afford to allow them that easy cop-out. Europeans have very little experience with assimilation, but without it, they will not survive. They will devolve in to warring feudal ethnically defined states, much as they have done throughout history.

If Europeans cannot look past their ethnic differences, they will never be able to unite in opposition to the true existential threat that they face from Islam.

623 Tom Kratman  Sun, May 11, 2008 11:58:31pm

re: #619 Render

Intellectual property law was never my specialty, but I'll betcha that the most they can own is that particular stylization of a lambda. The straight upside down V? I think the Greeks own it, in a non-copyrightable sense.

Unfortunately, the Lambda symbol is trademarked by Valve Corp.

I played the WW2 mod of that game for almost a decade. Good stuff for teaching team (small unit combat) tactics, cheaply.

Switched to Call of Duty 4 just recently.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...] y_4:_Modern_Warfare

t4

===

It's the same old bait-and-switch they've been running since the early 1930's. They promise to make the trains run on time, but they never tell anybody where those trains are going. Until its too late.

===

A3 - Woke up This Mornin

CHOSEN
ONES,
R

624 pat  Mon, May 12, 2008 12:03:04am

re: #620 Render

wow...that weirded out some of the links.

PIECES
FALLING
OFF,
R

WHEELS
LEAVING
TRACKS.

LOL

625 Sharmuta  Mon, May 12, 2008 12:05:23am

re: #621 Tom Kratman

No big deal, provided that you _do_ go read up on the Siege of Vicksburg. Or US v. Ritter von Leeb. Or preferably both.

;)

I'm jaded with the use of the word, mostly. For actual fascists...interest is good to keep up. They bear watching. Curiously, I'm still not convinced those movements are precisely fascist, whatever fascist may be. Nazi? Yeah....maybe Nazi fits better. That word's overused, too, but it has a more precise definition and much the same set of symbols.

Sir- I'm quite behind on my reading so it will take me awhile to get to it, but I do find history a fascinating subject, so I will add it to my list.

As for your second point- "what do we call actual fascists" has been a question of mine since this entire episode came up last fall. Still waiting for an answer, too. Imagine that. Still getting *crickets* from fjordy.

626 Tom Kratman  Mon, May 12, 2008 12:07:22am

re: #622 Syrah

I'm not sure how whether we "allow" it or not would make the slightest difference. We don't have to encourage it, of course, or approve of it, or applaud it, but it will happen or not quite without reference to what we allow, approve of, or applaud. Similarly with the warring, feudal (that's really not the right word), ethnic states.

Europe's different from us. A state there, with a couple of multicultural (sorta) exceptions (the UK, Switzerland, Belgium...and you see what's happening in Belgium), _is_ defined by ethnicity, the exclusionary ethnicity largely created by many centuries of killing each other. It's one of the big reasons, maybe _the_ big reason, why they will probably never be able to assimiliate the way we can. Their states _are_ ethnic at core.

627 Syrah  Mon, May 12, 2008 12:11:13am

re: #626 Tom Kratman

I think we are in agreement.

By "allow" I meant condone.

I don't have much hope for Europe for the very reason that you state.

628 gkong3  Mon, May 12, 2008 12:11:54am

Just out of curiosity - I know King (of All Lizardoids) Charles Johnson the First (and Only) has made his stance on white supremacy groups quite clear (and not being myself white, I applaud this), so this is more towards the rest of the Army...

At which point does the principle 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' terminate and 'with you for a friend, who needs enemies?' begin?

Because it seems to me that politics does make for strange bedfellows, and the USA and the USSR were allies in WW2 before they were antagonists in the Cold War.

From: A dimwitted Private who shouldn't be questioning orders from his Superior (and Higher Ranking) Officer

629 Syrah  Mon, May 12, 2008 12:18:14am

I don't understand why Fjordman feels it is necessary to keep referring back to LGF.

If he is so confident in his prescription of accommodating European Ethnic Nationalist into the European anti-Jihad movement, why would he feel a need to even acknowledge LGF's existence?

If we here are as wrong and as irrelevant as he and his supporters argue, why do they pay any attention to us at all?

630 Abu Lahab  Mon, May 12, 2008 12:18:54am

This time-wasting message of you, fjordman, is yet another proof that you will never answer honestly the fundamental accusations against your allies - the Eurofascists - or explain in blain words what your "ideology" is!
Keep writing "directly" to the readers of LGF empty pieces like this one; that will make them only stick more to reading this blog because it makes sense and because its author's stand on everything is CLEAR as the day light.
Though it's a virtual internet world, honesty is never virtual on this blog; it does exist.

631 Tom Kratman  Mon, May 12, 2008 12:19:33am

re: #625 Sharmuta

Somewhere on Jerry Pournelle's site I think he tried to address what fascism really is and isn't. If I get ambition later (it's late) I'll look for a link.

Ah, what the hell...gimme a minute...

(play theme from Jeopardy here)

[Link: www.jerrypournelle.com...]

search for the word, "fascist."

632 Render  Mon, May 12, 2008 12:23:06am

re: #623 Tom Kratman

Good point about the Lambda.

=

I suppose the correct terminology would something along the lines of "neo-fascists."

But I suspect that for the majority of their "leadership" it's just a scam to keep them from actually having to work for a living.

...of course there are an awful lot of clergy and politicians for whom that suspicion would be equally true...

NO
MEAN
CITY,
R

633 Sharmuta  Mon, May 12, 2008 12:25:03am

re: #629 Syrah

I don't understand why Fjordman feels it is necessary to keep referring back to LGF.

If he is so confident in his prescription of accommodating European Ethnic Nationalist into the European anti-Jihad movement, why would he feel a need to even acknowledge LGF's existence?

If we here are as wrong and as irrelevant as he and his supporters argue, why do they pay any attention to us at all?

Because LGF isn't irrelevant, no matter how frequently they chant that mantra. They know they screwed up in alienating Charles and the Lizards. They are now the irrelevant ones, desperate to be paid attention to, begging on the side streets of the blogosphere for readers. It's pretty sad, really. Just like with real life beggars, I think it's best not to give them any spare change- they'll spend it in inappropriate ways to satiate their undesirable fixations.

634 Tom Kratman  Mon, May 12, 2008 12:25:52am

re: #628 gkong3

Who, me? Hey, I'm retired and a lizzard of no particular standing.

I used this line in an afterword, but I'll use it again. In all of the episodes of Star Trek, all the spinoff series, there were exactly _two_ profound lines. One was, "Having is not, after all, so pleasing as wanting."

The other - and better - was, "Survival cancels out programming."

I think that's right, by the way. When it's existential, you can do pretty much anything. Be wary, though, of seeing an existential threat that isn't there.

635 Sharmuta  Mon, May 12, 2008 12:26:46am

re: #631 Tom Kratman

Thanks, Tom. Likewise- it's late and I'll have to read it later, but I will. Personally, I've been going with mussolini's own manifesto for a definition.

636 Syrah  Mon, May 12, 2008 12:29:08am

re: #625 Sharmuta

I have tried to avoid the term Fascist in theses debates and refer instead to Ethnic Nationalist.

Fascism, as it was promoted by Mussolini, was a holistic and spiritually (god-state) based socialism. While the Nazi's shared many of the same philosophical underpinnings of the Italian Fascist movement, German National Socialist were much more focused on Race and Ethnicity then the Italian fascist were.

If you haven't yet read it, I would strongly recommend Jonah Goldberg's Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left, From Mussolini to the Politics of Meaning

637 Athos  Mon, May 12, 2008 12:31:04am

re: #628 gkong3

Speaking for myself, this is not a case of 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' but a simple, basic moral question.

Am I willing to provide groups like these, which stand for beliefs and actions that are anti-ethical to me, legitimization because they profess to combat the same threat? The answer to this is a clear no.

I remain convinced and confident that we can defeat our enemies without their assistance or partnering with them. I consider them, not only odious in their beliefs, but that they inflate their own ability and importance in this conflict. I can not accept selling out my values and providing them with any level of legitimization or raising them from the fringe that they rightfully find themselves. They need us far more than we need them.

638 Sharmuta  Mon, May 12, 2008 12:31:58am

re: #636 Syrah

That's up shortly on the reading list, sadly gathering a bit of dust on my bookshelf. As soon as I finish Bawer, I'm reading it.

639 Sharmuta  Mon, May 12, 2008 12:32:35am

re: #637 Athos

Well said.

640 Tom Kratman  Mon, May 12, 2008 12:34:22am

re: #633 Sharmuta

No, it's not irrelevant. (After all, I'm here rather than drooling over a pic of Pam Geller's chest, right?) It has influence.

That influence is perhaps less than it could be, because LGF is also a social site, which dilutes the core messages. Then again, were it not also a social site, it probably wouldn't generate as much on the core messages.

Can't expect the impossible.

641 Athos  Mon, May 12, 2008 12:34:37am

re: #629 Syrah

I don't understand why Fjordman feels it is necessary to keep referring back to LGF.

If he is so confident in his prescription of accommodating European Ethnic Nationalist into the European anti-Jihad movement, why would he feel a need to even acknowledge LGF's existence?

If we here are as wrong and as irrelevant as he and his supporters argue, why do they pay any attention to us at all?

Because they need us for legitimization. They cannot move from the fringe without our willingness to overlook their odious policies and approaches.

You do touch on an interesting point - if they were so focused on fighting the same threat, then why don't they abandon their supremacist positions clearly and without hedging and embrace our values as opposed to demanding that we abandon our values?

642 Tom Kratman  Mon, May 12, 2008 12:38:27am

re: #636 Syrah

Yeah, but an "ethnic" nationalist could be anything, depending on how you want to define ethnicity. Are Americans an ethnicity? Are they after being here for five generations? I think so. Whenever I visited (or lived in) a European country I was daily faced with how much alike we are and how different from them. And we're generally nationalist. Yet to lump us in with BNP would be simply wrong.

643 Tom Kratman  Mon, May 12, 2008 12:40:13am

re: #637 Athos

Yes, but it's not existential for us yet. If it were, if it really came down to, "our principles or our children and grandchildren," we don't know what we'd do. But we'd probably side with our kids.

644 Sharmuta  Mon, May 12, 2008 12:47:47am

re: #642 Tom Kratman

The difference with American nationalism and european nationalism is that as Americans, we're not a singular ethnicity. Our nationalism is based on ideals like Liberty, Equality, Justice-- the Constitution; whereas in europe it is based on their ethnic make-up. To be Swedish, you have to be a Swede, etc. To be an American, you can come from anywhere- all we ask you accept the American system, abide by the Constitution. We are a melting pot. Europe is...still rather tribal.

645 Athos  Mon, May 12, 2008 12:57:47am

re: #643 Tom Kratman

Yes, but it's not existential for us yet. If it were, if it really came down to, "our principles or our children and grandchildren," we don't know what we'd do. But we'd probably side with our kids.

Perhaps. But perhaps not. That is the fundamental ethical question - is it worth becoming what we hate, dispise, and know is ethically wrong?

There is a difference between fighting without quarter to win in a fight against evil and embracing / promoting a slightly lessor evil than we face when it is not existential. If I cannot stand to my values and principles even when faced with an existential threat, then what does that say about my values? How can they be core to me if I will toss them aside?

What message will that send to those kids and grandkids - or my enemies?

646 gkong3  Mon, May 12, 2008 1:00:04am

Tom Kratman and Athos: Thank you. Two viewpoints for me to chew over.

You know, I seem to recall a Tom Kratman who is a co-author with Dave Ringo (or was thar Freer) in Baen Books...let me just do a quick lookup...and BLAM! Lots of books under that name...so, any relation, or just a socky, or can I tell my grandkids I was on a blog with a Baen Books author? :) Cuz I seriously enjoy Baen titles for the most part, and rehabilitating former Nazis sounds very much like something that might fit into the tone of this particular blogpost ;)

647 Render  Mon, May 12, 2008 1:02:58am

re: #628 gkong3

"At which point does the principle 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' terminate and 'with you for a friend, who needs enemies?' begin?"

R - Everything is relative. In the case of the (ahem) "neo-fascists" they don't get to switch sides - again. There is simply no excuse for allowing them to get anywhere near legitimacy ever again. In the case of the current prime enemy the vast majority will be not only allowed to switch sides, but will be actively encouraged to do so. The idea being to drag them, kicking and screaming if necessary, into the 21st century. The "Kill 'em all" plan is advocated by our enemies and the pitiful remnants of a thousand year Reich that didn't last ten years. We don't do genocide, they do.

"Because it seems to me that politics does make for strange bedfellows, and the USA and the USSR were allies in WW2 before they were antagonists in the Cold War."

R - We were most assuredly NOT allies with the USSR for the entirety of WW2. The USSR was allied with the Third Reich in the 1939 dismemberment of Poland and was also responsible for much of the early training of Hans Von Seeckt's "secret German army" of the Versailles Treaty period, that training included the early Luftwaffe, panzer's, and combined arms warfare then known as "Blitzkrieg," all done inside Soviet Russia. The US was "allied" with the USSR from December 1941 until August 1945 and no longer. That alliance was notoriously one-sided and strictly a matter of convenience. It does not stand as a historical comparative.

"We" will not be allying with the likes of neo-fascism. Not now, not ever. This Jew says...

COUNT
ON
IT,
R

648 Syrah  Mon, May 12, 2008 1:05:00am

re: #642 Tom Kratman

I can only really echo Sharmuta's reply.

649 Render  Mon, May 12, 2008 1:16:33am

re: #646 gkong3

Yup.

GOOD
EYE,
R

650 gkong3  Mon, May 12, 2008 1:52:02am

Render: I hope I did not ever say that the USA and USSR were allies for the whole war, just that they were, so to speak. And I do take your point about ensuring that our bedfellows aren't strange. I was just wondering where the line was, is all. I do further hope it is possible for the Prime Enemy to be dragged, without their load of Semtex jackets and Dupont trousers.

And thank you for your Yup. Not sure which scenario it was to, but I'll assume Tom Kratman is, indeed, the Tom Kratman, and stop downloading his books off eMule ;)

Tom: If you still reading, not that I actually ever eMuled your books, mind you - I download the Baen CDs and read them that way. Well, it. The one you co-wrote. My local Borders doesn't stock your titles, for some reason. Dave Ringo, sure. Freer? No problem. Weber? Take your pick. Drake? Can do. Tom Kratman? Who's he? Hmm. Maybe they've got a hardon for Davids.

651 Purre  Mon, May 12, 2008 3:08:25am

re: #617 Tom Kratman

I wonder about that. Is it because the Euros, not merely the multiculturalists, but Euros generally, don't have the first clue about how to assimilate? Haven't the cultural ability to assimilate? We can't expect them to do what they just can't do, I suppose.

Several things... first, "Europe" is merely geographical area. There is no "European culture" and has never been. Europe is multicultural area in itself, as there are both majority and minority cultures - defined by how large population of the given country belong to the culture. But none of those cultures have name "European" and never will. Some EU fanatics do fantasize about that, but it is never going to be there. EU is not European version of United States of America and never will be. This and many other things make the typical posts about "Euro" this and "Euro" that somewhat absurd. They talk of something that is mostly in their own mind only. Label that is not real.

Earlier you asked what would center-right European do. This Finn here (political right, but I guess I fit well enough to your question) votes political right and does not back down from political discussions. More could be done - contacting politicians and their aides more frequently, writing opinion pieces in newspapers and so forth. Normal, peaceful and traditional democratic ways. And that is how it should be. Allying with racist groups is not the answer and never will be. That is also why I was glad when Charles outed Vlaams Belang and such. Integrity matters. I had other reason as well for being glad and it is that one part of my family tree was wiped out during siege of Leningrad (yes, I am Finn who has roots in former Russian Empire) and to ally with people who idolize the movement that killed so many of my relatives would be anathema to me (and for same reason I feel the same for communism). Not that those are the only reasons, but I feel I have blabbed a bit too much about myself ;).

So, yeah, my points are: 1) Europe is full of countries that cannot be simplified under one term honestly and 2) person who loves his own culture/society should steer clear of groups like Vlaams Belang and stay with normal political parties. And maybe get into politics if one has the necessary qualities.

Just my 0.02 €.

652 haakondahl  Mon, May 12, 2008 3:40:33am

re: #642 Tom Kratman

Yeah, but an "ethnic" nationalist could be anything, depending on how you want to define ethnicity. Are Americans an ethnicity? Are they after being here for five generations? I think so. Whenever I visited (or lived in) a European country I was daily faced with how much alike we are and how different from them. And we're generally nationalist. Yet to lump us in with BNP would be simply wrong.

I'm joining in late, so please pardon anything I have missed--Americans share a culture, not an ethnicity per se. My own working definition of ethnicity is that it exists in the intersection between race and culture, but that's about all I can say. To me, what an American is, without looking at legal status, concerns culture very much, ethnicity perhaps, and race not at all.

653 haakondahl  Mon, May 12, 2008 3:57:53am

re: #633 Sharmuta

Because LGF isn't irrelevant, no matter how frequently they chant that mantra. They know they screwed up in alienating Charles and the Lizards. They are now the irrelevant ones, desperate to be paid attention to, begging on the side streets of the blogosphere for readers. It's pretty sad, really. Just like with real life beggars, I think it's best not to give them any spare change- they'll spend it in inappropriate ways to satiate their undesirable fixations.

I agree, but I also feel that they are gaining currency in Europe, which is awful. It is important to stress that what is happening here is not a debate, or a falling out. There was a debate and it is finished. There was a falling out, and it is the fascists who fell. What there exists now is a vibrant, tumultuous online community with its ankles being assaulted by the bitter fallen. BJ-man and his ilk have earned the cold shoulder, and I am only too happy to serve it up. If they were more popular, they would deserve more active opposition. But they're not.
I have read his little screed. All of the sentences were well-formed, with some decent vocabulary. But that's about as far up the semantic chain as the goodness goes.

654 dustyvet  Mon, May 12, 2008 5:02:16am

"Allah hath promised such of you as believe and do good work that He will surely make them to succeed (the present rulers) in the earth..."


I'm so impressed....NOT!

655 SuprKufr  Mon, May 12, 2008 5:44:22am

I hope the Euro-fascists and the Islamo-fascists kill each other.

That is the maximum extent of my "friendship" with Neo-Nazi Eurotrash when it comes to resisting Islam. And Islam is the worst religion.

656 tika  Mon, May 12, 2008 6:19:18am
my fearsome brainwashing abilities

Resistance is futile.

OBEY! SUBMIT!

657 Tom Kratman  Mon, May 12, 2008 6:54:06am

re: #645 Athos

Perhaps. But perhaps not. That is the fundamental ethical question - is it worth becoming what we hate, dispise, and know is ethically wrong?

There is a difference between fighting without quarter to win in a fight against evil and embracing / promoting a slightly lessor evil than we face when it is not existential. If I cannot stand to my values and principles even when faced with an existential threat, then what does that say about my values? How can they be core to me if I will toss them aside?

What message will that send to those kids and grandkids - or my enemies?

That you value survival, or your progeny's survival, or the survival of the most core values of your society, over lesser ones.

You're not going to have any values, and neither are they, once you're all dead.

658 Tom Kratman  Mon, May 12, 2008 6:56:02am

re: #646 gkong3

I didn't rehabilitate a single former Nazi. The one that was there, who was still a Nazi, was shot down like a dog the moment his usefulness had ended.

659 Tom Kratman  Mon, May 12, 2008 6:58:22am

re: #650 gkong3

Yes, it's me.

_John_ Ringo, not Dave. He and I have two books out together. Those are widely carried. My own? See above. Some BNs and Borders carry; others don't. The percentages have been going up but it's not even a majority yet.

660 Tom Kratman  Mon, May 12, 2008 7:06:08am

re: #651 Purre

Well, is there a single European country that assimilates universally well? The French probably come closest and they've failed to assimilate most Moslems. If it's a common failing of _all_ your subcultures, I don't feel too very off in claiming that you all have a cultural failing.

As for a common European culture, you've mostly the same intellectual and historical roots. We have them, too. Are there differences? Clearly. But there are also enough commonalities - political, military, literary, philosophical - to claim a common European culture rather than widely divergent cultures with points of commonality.

You've mostly got the same problems, too, with some exceptions. (Yes, I know from talking with your Parliamentary defense committee in 2004 that Finland had not, and didn't intend to, take in any appreciable number of immigrants.)

661 Tom Kratman  Mon, May 12, 2008 7:10:49am

re: #652 haakondahl

I'm joining in late, so please pardon anything I have missed--Americans share a culture, not an ethnicity per se. My own working definition of ethnicity is that it exists in the intersection between race and culture, but that's about all I can say. To me, what an American is, without looking at legal status, concerns culture very much, ethnicity perhaps, and race not at all.

See, I'm inclined to think that ethnicity is as ethnicity feels, quite apart from genetic heritage. And Americans, especially if surrounded by foreigners, _feel_ they're a single people. We're also quite heavily interbred. I, for example, am an eclectic mix of Irish, German, Russian, Pole, Austrian, Hungarian, Jew, Gypsy, and a little Scot by way of Australia. I am as much ethnically American as those Celtic, Roman, Saxon mutts sitting on their island are the English.

662 TalkinKamel  Mon, May 12, 2008 8:23:26am

re: #657 Tom Kratman

Well, considering that any white power, neo-Nazi group that comes to power would probably want to send me, my family and most of my friends to a concentration camp, and create a tyranny as hateful as anything devised by Islam, I consider it a matter of survival not to go along with them, ever, no matter how much they, and others, try to convince me they're really, really on my side, they just want to fight those bad old Moslems. The enemy of my enemy might be my enemy too.

663 Tom Kratman  Mon, May 12, 2008 8:33:44am

re: #662 TalkinKamel

Sure might. The enemy of one's enemy can still be an enemy.

Here's an example nobody here has used, that I've seen. We and Stalin had the same enemy. So we, in substantial part, treated Stalin as a friend. And one result of that was that, once the common enemy had gone, we had a new enemy, who had _never_ been our friend, who was now in a much better position to damage us by the favorable position / infiltration he'd obtained when we were so foolish as to think him a friend.

664 Tom Kratman  Mon, May 12, 2008 8:42:09am

re: #663 Tom Kratman

And, as long as I'm on the subject, here's another objection to the neo-fascists that folks here may have missed. They may very well drive a majority of Europeans _away_ from resistance to radical Islam because they're so unsavory themselves.

665 Dianna  Mon, May 12, 2008 8:59:58am

re: #664 Tom Kratman

That point's been discussed and debated, actually. It's a good one, but a lot of the folks we lost felt that some of those same unsavory types were the only ones fighting.

Charles, sensibly, pointed to the diminishing support for Le Pen in France as the best sign that this was a poor argument.

666 Tom Kratman  Mon, May 12, 2008 9:05:43am

re: #665 Dianna

That point's been discussed and debated, actually. It's a good one, but a lot of the folks we lost felt that some of those same unsavory types were the only ones fighting.

Charles, sensibly, pointed to the diminishing support for Le Pen in France as the best sign that this was a poor argument.

Well....couple of variables: the neo-fascists could drive the more reasonable people to form their own movement, or they could well drive people to pure apathy. With Europe, I'd bet on apathy.

667 Charles  Mon, May 12, 2008 9:06:13am

re: #664 Tom Kratman

And, as long as I'm on the subject, here's another objection to the neo-fascists that folks here may have missed. They may very well drive a majority of Europeans _away_ from resistance to radical Islam because they're so unsavory themselves.

Actually, that is one of my main points in this whole debate. Not only would it drive away centrist Europeans, it would also alienate the majority of Americans if the anti-jihad side embraced thugs and neo-Nazis.

Not to mention handing groups like CAIR a perfect weapon to discredit the whole movement, wrapped up and tied with a neat little bow.

668 Dianna  Mon, May 12, 2008 9:09:24am

re: #666 Tom Kratman

With Europe, I'd bet on apathy.

There are days when I agree, but I don't really want to. Not that I see much cause for cheer, but I do see some signs of a turnaround. The election of Sarkozy and Merkel, for instance, show that at least some states in Europe will vote for the marginally saner candidate.

It's like living in the Bay Area; you cling to the small flickers of light and encourage them.

669 Dianna  Mon, May 12, 2008 9:10:05am

re: #667 Charles

Charles, does nothing escape your unblinking eye?

670 Tom Kratman  Mon, May 12, 2008 9:13:23am

re: #667 Charles

Might be an interesting little intellectual exercise to _unsentimentally_ lay out the parameters of a European political movement that was neither neo-fascist nor neo-Nazi, that could still save Europe from Islamic domination.

Not that I have any great faith it's possible, mind you. But, what the Hell; it couldn't hurt to think about or discuss.

671 Dianna  Mon, May 12, 2008 9:15:06am

re: #670 Tom Kratman

Enforce equality before the law would be a very good start.

672 Tom Kratman  Mon, May 12, 2008 9:15:19am

re: #668 Dianna

Sarkozy and Merkel may be fully sane...but they can still do no more than the overall political realities permit.

673 Tom Kratman  Mon, May 12, 2008 9:16:01am

re: #671 Dianna

That takes will. Do you see much sign of will over there?

674 Dianna  Mon, May 12, 2008 9:17:16am

re: #672 Tom Kratman

Yes. However, both have been willing to stand up and say, "Things have gotten out of hand." Better yet, the response to that has been positive, which I would never have laid a bet on.

Frankly, if Ireland could turn around, pretty much anyplace can.

675 Dianna  Mon, May 12, 2008 9:20:34am

re: #673 Tom Kratman

I think I responded too soon; I was thinking of Ireland as an example of a turnaround. From the most socialist and unemployed (and unemployable, it sometimes seemed) country in Europe to now, in just under twenty years? From heroin addicts measured in how many per square yard in Dublin to having about the same average as most big cities in about the same time? That's remarkable.

There seems to be some life in Europe, yet.

676 Dianna  Mon, May 12, 2008 9:21:57am

My computer is synchronizing to its storage files. I will be back in a couple minutes.

677 Tom Kratman  Mon, May 12, 2008 9:23:40am

re: #674 Dianna

Ireland and India (though that's not European, of course). I suspect that what was operating in both cases was the fall of the Soviet Union and Marxist-Leninism, generally. See, the Republic of Ireland had very strong socialist leanings ab initio. (Everbody, sing along: "And they sang, those working Paddies, and they shared their dreams with me, of a hero, a workers' hero, by the name of James Connolly..."). The IRA was loaded with them. (How do I know this? Let's just say I've some family connections with Sinn Fein.) Destroy the Soviet Union, discredit socialism, get bright people to thinking and questioning again...

678 Dianna  Mon, May 12, 2008 9:30:05am

re: #677 Tom Kratman

It was coming before that, but the end of the Soviet Union helped immensely.

The initial proclamation for the Rising of 1916 was specifically socialist, and one of the hardest divisions between the old IRA and the Provos was that the Provisionals were openly communist. Sean McStiofan (sp?) was a screaming red, of course.

The main thing the Irish noted, of course, was that socialism didn't work. The options were: stay in the same job for 40 years, and pray they didn't confiscate your means to stay employed; get married and go on the dole; or head for the States and work in the trades. It was bound to end in tears if they stayed with that system.

679 Sharmuta  Mon, May 12, 2008 9:35:02am

re: #670 Tom Kratman

Tom- many of us have been discussing it for months, as Charles and Lizards have been getting pounded for months by the crypto-fascist enablers questions of "what would you have us/them do?" For many of us, the overwhelming answer has been for the europeans to enforce their laws, as a start.

But it's not the end all be all of the problem. I think it's a much deeper issue, in that the europeans are still very much in the mind set that to be a member of whichever european society, you have to be ethnically of that country. They need to evolve to a more American ideal, where to be a Swede, or a German, or Dutchman means you embrace the values of that country. When you have native born third generation children of immigrants still being called "immigrants", you have a fundamental problem. And for them to embrace an American ideal might be difficult, in that anti-Americanism is so prevalent to european societies.

Perhaps it would have been better for them to not have allowed immigration at all. Perhaps it would be better to let them figure out what it means to fight for their own Liberty instead of others fighting for it for them. Perhaps apathy is their fate. But I think until they confront the nasty little truths of the damage done by socialism and mulitculturalism, it's going to be a long, tough haul for europe.

680 Tom Kratman  Mon, May 12, 2008 9:36:12am

re: #678 Dianna


Kind of like Europe as a whole is bound to end in tears? Sadly for old Europe, there are no more easy, bloodless shocks to the system available, at least that I can see. I mentioned above to Charles that I saw little reason for belief that anything can save Europe.

681 Dianna  Mon, May 12, 2008 9:41:03am

re: #680 Tom Kratman

You may be right, but it can be turned around if enough Europeans do what the Irish did, and say, "This isn't working, and it is only going to get worse."

It's easy to dismiss them as not having the will, but I never would have expected the Irish to do it. I thought too many of their people with gumption had left for too many generations, and Ireland was doomed to being some combination of a twee tourist attraction and a bloody mess.

They may yet tighten their belts, roll up their sleeves and get over the five-week vacation bit.

682 Dianna  Mon, May 12, 2008 9:47:15am

Though, re-reading what I've said, I admit that my determined hope is more trying to withstand my natural pessimism. The problem is that I get weary of the "Waily! Waily! We're doomed!" chorus and feel a definite desire to kick it into forward motion.

683 Dianna  Mon, May 12, 2008 9:52:54am

I'm alone on a dead thread. Oh, well.

I should be working, anyway.

684 Tom Kratman  Mon, May 12, 2008 9:56:25am

re: #679 Sharmuta

To say they need to is to beg the question of whether they can, or whether they can in time for it to matter. I frankly doubt that it's possible.

685 Tom Kratman  Mon, May 12, 2008 9:58:11am

re: #683 Dianna

Not alone. But wifey came down to my office for morning coffee and she's ever so much more attractive than my computer is.

686 Dianna  Mon, May 12, 2008 10:00:39am

re: #685 Tom Kratman

Lucky man; my Male (who would convey his greetings if he knew we were chatting) dropped me at the train station at 6:45. No one has brought me coffee, because my boss isn't in yet.

687 Sharmuta  Mon, May 12, 2008 10:00:58am

re: #684 Tom Kratman

Well- then there's the apathy angle you raised. Do they even care to?

688 Charles  Mon, May 12, 2008 10:04:04am

re: #680 Tom Kratman

Kind of like Europe as a whole is bound to end in tears? Sadly for old Europe, there are no more easy, bloodless shocks to the system available, at least that I can see. I mentioned above to Charles that I saw little reason for belief that anything can save Europe.

I think the greatest threat to Europe isn't the Muslim immigrants, or the crypto-fascist groups -- it's their own stubborn leftist, socialist ideology. It's corrupted every institution in Europe and created the nanny state monstrosity of the European Union, and unleashed a plague of political correctness and passivity.

Pulling out of this downward spiral would take a pretty massive sea change in public opinion. I agree that it's difficult to see how that could happen -- but then again, I don't think anyone could possibly have predicted the fall of the Berlin Wall even one year before it happened.

689 Dianna  Mon, May 12, 2008 10:08:00am

re: #688 Charles

No one did. Everyone was talking about how Gorbachev was revitalizing the Eastern Bloc, blah, blah, blah.

690 Tom Kratman  Mon, May 12, 2008 10:10:11am

re: #688 Charles

They're not really analagous, though, Charles. The Sovs fell and the wall came down because of collapse. Europe as a whole can't collapse into political, social, fiscal and moral health. It's the difference between positive and negative.

691 Tom Kratman  Mon, May 12, 2008 10:10:59am

Guys, must go for a while to get tired changed and then (yay!) pick up new gun.

692 Dianna  Mon, May 12, 2008 10:11:53am

re: #691 Tom Kratman

Have a good day!

693 Wishbone  Mon, May 12, 2008 11:19:39am

re: #661 Tom Kratman

"........those Celtic, Roman, Saxon mutts sitting on their island...."

Oi! ...... I resemble that comment.

Seriously though Tom, I've enjoyed following your comments in this thread, but that one above is a heart warmer. I rather enjoy the recognition of that mutt status I so wholeheartedly embrace.

694 marjoriemoon  Mon, May 12, 2008 11:42:15am

re: #371 TalkinKamel

I really don't like the sound of that upcoming debate (debate? What's to debate?) about the origins of Christian anti-semetism. And I thought Fjordman, GoV and Pamela were all fearless anti-jihad fighters; so why would they go so far off-track as to have a group discussion about something so completely off topic from the WoT?

I really, really, don't like the sound of this. . .

Fjordman didn't say the ORIGINS of Christian anti-Semitism. That is something quite obvious. He said the CAUSES of Christian anti-Semitism, which to me implies anti-Semitism against Christians, which makes no sense whatsoever. A few other posters here seemed to be confused by it also.

695 TalkinKamel  Mon, May 12, 2008 11:55:15am

re: #694 marjoriemoon

Well, usually when you explain the "cause" of something, you're explaining its origins as well. So I don't really see much difference between cause/origin here.

I suspect what Fjordman is saying is that they're going to debate what caused Christians to become anti-semetic. I don't think he's talking about Jews being anti-semetic about Christians (that's too weird, even for Fjordman!). I'm afraid he's insinuating that Christian anti-semetism grew out of something other than bigotry, and prejudice; that there was some rational reason for Christians to hate Jews, and that he, and his fellow debaters, are now going to edify the world by discussing what those real reasons were, and opening our poor, ignorant eyes to the real causes/origins (whatever) of Christian anti-semetism.

I might be wrong, but that what it sounds like to me. I'm afraid he's going to drag up more blah about Medieval Jewish moneylenders, vague political conflicts, Europeans' allegedly justified fears about being taken over by some foreign other, the fact that Jews refused to assimilate. . . all the usual stuff brought up when people want to excuse or try to explain away anti-semetism. You know, all those pogroms weren't really Europe's fault! Those danged Jews just wouldn't assimilate, and they loaned money at interest, too.

As I said, I might be wrong, but that's what it sounds like to me at this point. Fjordman might say something quite different when the debate (debate? What is there to debate?) actually starts, but, considering this latest screed, who knows what he's going to say?

696 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, May 12, 2008 11:57:31am
697 Sand Panda  Mon, May 12, 2008 12:03:16pm

Since Fjordman has been kind enough to send us Lizards 3600 words, I suggest we reciprocate with an equal amount of (four letter) words.

/There are quite a lot of us, and I'm sure that if every Lizard contributed at least a few, we'd manage (unlike Fjordman) to come up with something rather innovative and amusing.

698 marjoriemoon  Mon, May 12, 2008 12:14:21pm

re: #695 TalkinKamel

Well, usually when you explain the "cause" of something, you're explaining its origins as well. So I don't really see much difference between cause/origin here.

I suspect what Fjordman is saying is that they're going to debate what caused Christians to become anti-semetic. I don't think he's talking about Jews being anti-semetic about Christians (that's too weird, even for Fjordman!). I'm afraid he's insinuating that Christian anti-semetism grew out of something other than bigotry, and prejudice; that there was some rational reason for Christians to hate Jews, and that he, and his fellow debaters, are now going to edify the world by discussing what those real reasons were, and opening our poor, ignorant eyes to the real causes/origins (whatever) of Christian anti-semetism.

I might be wrong, but that what it sounds like to me. I'm afraid he's going to drag up more blah about Medieval Jewish moneylenders, vague political conflicts, Europeans' allegedly justified fears about being taken over by some foreign other, the fact that Jews refused to assimilate. . . all the usual stuff brought up when people want to excuse or try to explain away anti-semetism. You know, all those pogroms weren't really Europe's fault! Those danged Jews just wouldn't assimilate, and they loaned money at interest, too.

As I said, I might be wrong, but that's what it sounds like to me at this point. Fjordman might say something quite different when the debate (debate? What is there to debate?) actually starts, but, considering this latest screed, who knows what he's going to say?

Ah ok gotcha. It sounded so foreign to my ear, I couldn't understand what he was driving at.

I think I first heard the term "Islamic Anti-Semitism" out of Ward Churchill's trap. Nevermind the word has always been used to describe prejudice against Jews exclusively. But hey, we used to be called Palestinians, too, so..... nothing really surprises me anymore.

Anyway, I hope you are way off base! If Fjordman wants to up the ante between blogs, than he can certainly start with trying to justify racism against Jews, if that is, indeed, what he's implying.

Eep, I'm feeling like I need a shower now.

699 USS Ben  Mon, May 12, 2008 1:40:17pm

re: #192 Albertanator

Friends on all sides...please Charles and Fjord I think we all need to do some compromising...we have a horrific foe.......Islam....

Let's humble ourselves a bit on both sides.....A house divided is never a good thing!

Nazi's, neo-nazi's, white supremecists and racists are also horrific foes, which is why I'll never compromise with them.
They are as much an enemy of Liberty as the Islamofascists and they are never gonna be my friends.
Since they are your friends...don't consider me your friend.

700 Tom Kratman  Mon, May 12, 2008 1:55:22pm

re: #693 Wishbone

"...And then came the English, who declared themselves a 'self-made people,' thereby demonstrating the horrors of unskilled labor and relieving the Almighty of a _dreadful_ responsibility." ;)

701 Tom Kratman  Mon, May 12, 2008 1:58:11pm

re: #697 Sand Panda

"What is there to debate?"

Hmmm. You don't really debate for a what, but for a whom, the whom being the person you're debating with or some audience, the intent being to sway them.

There might be some benefit in laying out the case for the various neo-fascist or neo-nazi groups being a dead end as well as in laying out a case for some other way.

702 BabbaZee  Mon, May 12, 2008 3:04:24pm

Oy's article is great


But here’s the thing: It does not matter.

I could be a Bolshevist, an Islamist, a Fascist or perhaps merely a lifelong supporter of Idi bloody Amin, heck; I could even be Idi Amin myself, and it still would not matter. The information that I have provided in a series of articles on this web site (for instance here, here, here and also here) can still be fact-checked by anyone who feels like doing it. It’s not difficult to do. If it’s all bullshit, it could just as easily be refuted. Fjordman has not refuted it. He’s only written a whole lot of blah-blah-blah about other stuff. Over and over again.

To which I add
Uff Da,
Me too!

703 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, May 12, 2008 4:38:32pm
704 TalkinKamel  Mon, May 12, 2008 5:37:13pm

re: #698 marjoriemoon

I'm hoping I'm off base on this too.

There are many times when I really don't want to be right.

705 TalkinKamel  Mon, May 12, 2008 5:40:55pm

re: #701 Tom Kratman

Or, on the other hand, it might just be a great big load of BS.

I'm not sure what debating Christian anti-semetism would really accomplish at this point in history. You'd think the dead-endedness of the Nazis, and white supremecist thinking, would have been amply demonstrated by the collapse of the Nazi government in WWII.

Frankly, if that didn't convince any neo-nazi wannabees of the wrong-headedness of such thinking, nothing will. And, of course, we dont' know that Fjordman actually wants to prove it wrong, at this point.

706 TalkinKamel  Mon, May 12, 2008 5:41:57pm

re: #701 Tom Kratman

And you can't debate with somebody whose beliefs are based on an irrational assumption.

707 gkong3  Mon, May 12, 2008 5:59:49pm

re: #659 Tom Kratman

Ack. Yes, John Ringo. IIRC, the same guy who wrote what seemed to be pretty hardcore BDSM erotica in a sorta-kinda SF setting, if 'Ghost' was anything to compare with. Oops. Maybe I'm the one with a hardon for Davids. :P Brain malfunction, sorry.

Cool. I got something to tell my grandkids. :)

Also, my bad. You're right, of course. I was lumping all the German troops together under the label Nazi. Mental shortcut, and not a particularly good one.

WRT to a non-bad anti-dhimmi force in Europe, well, it couldn't hurt to start out with a multiracial (note: not necessarily multi-culti) note. It would be ever so much better to have people in Orange, Brown, Beige, Black, White and some Rainbow types all saying the same thing in Swedish "We are the Bjorg. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile." Something to that effect would help tremendously, I think.

PS: Does Cally ever reunite with her Dad? That would give me even more reason to order that series in...

708 boofar  Mon, May 12, 2008 6:32:38pm

I think Brussels Journal is down. When you click on it, all you see is a blank page.

709 boofar  Mon, May 12, 2008 6:35:50pm

re: #688 Charles

Yup. The immigrants can be easily integrated and there's no reason to believe that they can't adopt very well to the new society. The Nazis can be rendered useless by a strong show of force (as in, condemnation of them and their actions). The problem lies, as you've said, with the weak-willed officials in the EU capitols who are simply too cowardly for controversy, much less real leadership.

710 Tom Kratman  Mon, May 12, 2008 6:52:17pm

re: #705 TalkinKamel


Ummm...no. The Soviet government "collapsed." The Nazi and Fascist governments were militarily crushed by overwhelming force. These are very different things. That the latter were crushed doesn't necessarily discredit them in the eyes of such as BNP and VB, for the purposes to which BNP and VB would like to put such a government.

That said, Orwell had a point: "You can argue with an opinion but a conviction can only be shot."

711 Tom Kratman  Mon, May 12, 2008 7:03:49pm

re: #709 boofar

I can't think of a single reason to believe the Muslim immigrants in Europe can be integrated at all, en masse, let alone easily, nor did Charles say so. He correctly identified the core problem, but that's not at all the same thing.

712 Tom Kratman  Mon, May 12, 2008 7:06:19pm

re: #707 gkong3

Yes, Ghost sells pretty well, which John finds terribly disturbing at some levels.

Cally? It would be wrong for me to snerk someone else's books. Except perhaps to say that the answer is out there.

713 Tom Kratman  Mon, May 12, 2008 7:25:48pm

re: #694 marjoriemoon

Origins and causes? Hmmm. Last month I finally finished Paul Johnson's book, The Jews. Interesting little sidebar in there, the anti-Jewish activism / pogroms/ just all around assholism seems to have a strong delta population density component to it. I.e. town X has Y many Jews. They get the anti-semitic boot and move on to towns A, B, and C. This suddenly and radically increases the Jewish population of those towns which is invariably followed by more anti-Jewish activism / pograms / all around assholism even where A, B and C had no prior record of notable anti-semitism.

Now translate that from Jews to Moslems and picture one country in Europe driving out their Moslems and starting an anti-Moslem chain reaction in all the others. And, interestingly, it might not take a major country driving out their Moslems to start it. Belgium just might do. Flanders alone might do.

714 Cutting Edge  Mon, May 12, 2008 7:56:48pm

re: #216 Opilio

Um. Mr. Parson, sir,... %u2002 your name starts with two consonants. Nevertheless, you must learn to trust yourself.

LGF, the place that fact-checks your ass and has fun doing it !1

715 TalkinKamel  Mon, May 12, 2008 8:43:42pm

re: #710 Tom Kratman

Ummm...no. The Soviet government "collapsed." The Nazi and Fascist governments were militarily crushed by overwhelming force. These are very different things. That the latter were crushed doesn't necessarily discredit them in the eyes of such as BNP and VB, for the purposes to which BNP and VB would like to put such a government.

That said, Orwell had a point: "You can argue with an opinion but a conviction can only be shot."

Well, that was my point; that all the debate in the world isn't going to dissuade an irrational thug from his point of view. I've debated Neo-Nazi types on other blogs. Waste of time.

And that the defeat of the Nazis doesn't discredit them in the eyes of such as the BNP, and VB (not to mention their jolly little atrocities) is simply further proof of their irrationality. It also shows that the purposes they'd like to use such governments for are not necessarily saving Western civilization, their own fellow countrymen or even fighting Islam. Hitler was quite friendly with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, who was his steadfast supporter.

716 TalkinKamel  Mon, May 12, 2008 8:49:46pm

re: #701 Tom Kratman

So, no, I don't think there's any real benefit, at this point, in laying out a debate for facism being a dead end----at least not to the facists themselves. They're beyond debate. They'll never be convinced.

Ever since this Vlaams Belang/BNP thing blew up, a number of LGF'ers have actually laid out some very good arguments as to why Facism is a dead end (as if the history of the 20the Century wasn't proof enough of that), and why freedom really was the best choice. Such arguments were usually just brushed off by VB/BNP supporters.

717 TalkinKamel  Mon, May 12, 2008 8:51:54pm

I also don't really see how Christian anti-semetism, or debating its causes and or origins, is really going to convince anybody of anything; anti-semetism these days springs more from the unbelieving Left and the neo-pagan facist right than it does from, say, your average Baptists, or Lutheran.

718 Tom Kratman  Mon, May 12, 2008 9:18:55pm

re: #715 TalkinKamel

Although I considered it possible to persuade, say, Fjordman, note that I also mentioned the audience, possibly wavering or neutral. Would it? Don't know, and neither do you. Worth the effort? Not worth _my_ effort, no. I'm not up enough on the neo-nazis, nor do I have time to get up enough, to debate it to my satisfaction.

719 Tom Kratman  Mon, May 12, 2008 9:22:29pm

re: #716 TalkinKamel

If we haven't convinced the reds, and we haven't, that communism/socialism/Marxist-Leninism, pick your --ism, is a dead end, no there's not a lot of hope with the neos. That said, they've got a somewhat better argument than the reds do, since the reds were defeated through mostly peaceful means, while it took the greatest armies in history to get rid of Nazism.

But, in any case, there may be some waverers out there. Probably are, in fact.

720 TalkinKamel  Mon, May 12, 2008 9:34:16pm

re: #713 Tom Kratman

Leaving aside all moral and ethical issues involved in "driving out" their Moslem population using the same quaint asshole methods used against the Jews----uh, Europe and what army are going to accomplish this? T

he Euros seem unable to to stand up to their own bureaucrats, face revamping their debilitating welfare system or even enforcing their own laws. So how are they going to start fomenting "pogroms" against the Islamic population? Call the UN? Get the USA to come bail them out once again? A Moslem population that, unlike the far more peaceable, unarmed Jewish populations of yesteryear, is armed, dangerous and pretty capable of assholism itself?

Yeah. Right.

Also, it's pretty obvious that the Europeans simply do not hate Islam as much as they do the Jews. Look how Europe steadfastly supports the Palestinians, and demonizes Israel. And look at the statistics. There haven't been that many anti-Islamic incidents since 9/11, but there's been a shocking rise in anti-semetic incidents worldwide. Assholes are assholes. They like soft targets. They will never go after Islam (or whoever their real enemy is at the moment). They'll always pick on the Jews, Gypsies, or any other group that doesn't pose a real threat.

721 TalkinKamel  Mon, May 12, 2008 9:35:47pm

re: #719 Tom Kratman

There are always waverers. I tend to think a lot of them (not all of them, to be sure) waver not because they don't have all the facts, or haven't been exposed to both sides of an argument, but because it's simply their nature not to take sides, or make up their minds.

This sort of waverer is as hopeless as the gibbering idiot facist.

722 Tom Kratman  Mon, May 12, 2008 9:46:33pm

re: #720 TalkinKamel

Well of _course_ the moral and ethical issues are ignored. If someone's going to do it, they're going to do it. Your morals, or mine, have zero effectiveness on people who are determined to get rid of "the other."

Can they drive out the Moslems? They could right now, as a mere physical matter, if they had the political will. They'd probably have to be pretty unethically (not necessarily illegally) brutal about it but they could do it. Now. Ten or twenty years? Maybe, maybe not. Thirty years. I don't think so, no.

As to whether the Euros hate Islam more than they do Jews, I think we're talking two different populations. At this point, the Tranzis who run Europe hate Jews - especially Israelis - more, indeed infinitely more. The average German or Brit or Frenchman (or woman) suffering the bombings, seeing the riots and seeing their cities being taken over? I'm inclined to doubt. (As I'm inclined to doubt polls on the subject.)

723 Tom Kratman  Mon, May 12, 2008 9:56:25pm

re: #720 TalkinKamel

And for the specific question of Europe and what army _could_ do it? The French, the British, the Spanish, the Italian, The Portuguese, the German... You get the idea. Between them they've more than we have, much more. They wouldn't even really have to fight. Barbed wire and starvation work.

I don't see it happening, but it's just silly to say, "and what army?" when they have so many. Flanders has a population (with the Flemish around Brussels) of about seven million, many of them trained to arms from the cold war. (Getting older? yes, but how young do you have to be to watch barbed wire?) Against this, maybe a couple of hundred thousand Moslems, an comparatively large percentage of them, at this point, children.

All that said, even with the neos in charge I don't see the political will to do anything like that.

724 Mr. Beamish  Mon, May 12, 2008 10:21:51pm

re: #515 Pawn of the Oppressor

I like how reactionary freakshows, intellectually descended from National Socialists, now accuse a centrist blog of being left-wing for reacting against leftists who are mislabeled as rightists by other leftists in the first place.

Or something.

Wait, what?

Bullseye.

725 USS Ben  Tue, May 13, 2008 12:20:27am

re: #663 Tom Kratman

Sure might. The enemy of one's enemy can still be an enemy.

Here's an example nobody here has used, that I've seen. We and Stalin had the same enemy. So we, in substantial part, treated Stalin as a friend. And one result of that was that, once the common enemy had gone, we had a new enemy, who had _never_ been our friend, who was now in a much better position to damage us by the favorable position / infiltration he'd obtained when we were so foolish as to think him a friend.

If General Patton had gotten his way, there wouldn't have been much of a Soviet threat, because Patton would've denied them east Berlin (and all the German scientists they captured, leading to their own nuclear bomb which escalated the cold war, and still make them quite dangerous).
Patton saw the threat clearly, but FDR and Truman would not listen to him.

Patton knew where communism would lead, and he knew the Soviets were not trustworthy nor honorable, particularly after the Nazi's were defeated.
It's a pity those Presidents disregarded his wise advice, but they were Democrats afterall, and they put their faith in diplomacy.
Of course, the Soviets murdered more people than the Nazi's, and diplomacy didn't do a damn thing to stop it.

726 USS Ben  Tue, May 13, 2008 12:49:42am

re: #672 Tom Kratman

Sarkozy and Merkel may be fully sane...but they can still do no more than the overall political realities permit.

Well, unfortunately, Sarkozy talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk, as the Dissident Frogman has demonstrated so clearly.
And Merkel seems to be about the same.

I do hope the start walking the walk, but I'm not holding my breath.

The recent elections in Great Britain however are a good sign, and a good start (at least in GB).

727 USS Ben  Tue, May 13, 2008 12:52:24am

re: #726 USS Ben

Sorry, that was in reply to Diana, #668.

728 USS Ben  Tue, May 13, 2008 12:55:19am

re: #679 Sharmuta

Tom- many of us have been discussing it for months, as Charles and Lizards have been getting pounded for months by the crypto-fascist enablers questions of "what would you have us/them do?" For many of us, the overwhelming answer has been for the europeans to enforce their laws, as a start.

But it's not the end all be all of the problem. I think it's a much deeper issue, in that the europeans are still very much in the mind set that to be a member of whichever european society, you have to be ethnically of that country. They need to evolve to a more American ideal, where to be a Swede, or a German, or Dutchman means you embrace the values of that country. When you have native born third generation children of immigrants still being called "immigrants", you have a fundamental problem. And for them to embrace an American ideal might be difficult, in that anti-Americanism is so prevalent to european societies.

Perhaps it would have been better for them to not have allowed immigration at all. Perhaps it would be better to let them figure out what it means to fight for their own Liberty instead of others fighting for it for them. Perhaps apathy is their fate. But I think until they confront the nasty little truths of the damage done by socialism and mulitculturalism, it's going to be a long, tough haul for europe.

Good points. Every country in Europe needs to embrace liberty rather than mere democracy. That is the best start!

729 TalkinKamel  Tue, May 13, 2008 6:43:54am

re: #723 Tom Kratman

"Barbed wire and starvation work"----lovely. (Ugh!)

I seriously doubt the many European nations are going to work together to form themselves into one great and glorious army to defend their freedom, blah, blah, blah. They dislike, and distrust, each other, almost as much as they do the US. And they've lost their fighting spirit. And, Tom m'boy, they are indeed going to need an army, because millions of Moslems are not just going to wait passively and allow themselves to be forced behind barbed wire, and denied food----at this point, they're torching cars in Paris, remember?

I know you're really enjoying visions of genocide, but it's not gonna work. Barbed wire can be torn down. The Euros just don't have it together enough to mount a concentrated campaign at this point. And, frankly, if it's going to be genocide in Europe again, the second time in less than a 100 years, I'm not sure Europe's worth saving.

730 TalkinKamel  Tue, May 13, 2008 6:55:04am

re: #723 Tom Kratman

And when was the last time any of these European armies: Portuguese, Flanders, etc. fought in an actual war? I don't mean "trained in a cold war"---a war which stayed cold, because the US did the hard work of outfoxing the Soviets, or a "police action", where French soldiers got to abuse some Congolese; I mean an honest to G-d, all out, boots on the ground war?

Also, whatever armies the Europeans have, are increasingly manned, as you pointed out, by older and older men. The Moslems have a much younger population. Guess who'se gonna win in an actual fight? European facists doubtless dream of the good old days, when the Jews---a highly moral, civilized, and assimilated minority, proud of their membership in their home countries---could be pushed into cattle cars and stuck behind barbed wire (and even the Jews fought back much harder, and more effectively, than the Euros want to admit), but their restive Islamic "youths" are going to be a much tougher proposition----partly, because the Euros themselves have pampered and enabled them so.

731 Tom Kratman  Tue, May 13, 2008 10:29:47am

re: #725 USS Ben

I'm inclined to disagree about the ease of taking on the Soviets in 45 or 46. By that time most of their idiots were dead; they had skilled commanders and troops, at all levels, some excellent equipment (in important particulars not just better but much better than ours), and outnumbered the bejesus out of us in combat formations.

732 Tom Kratman  Tue, May 13, 2008 10:33:30am

re: #729 TalkinKamel

Talkin, please stop being an asshole. Really. It's beginning to get annoying. Nobody's said word one about enjoying visions of genocide. Moreover, your objections to the physical possibility are simply childish, the kind of thing one expects from someone who knows absolutely nothing about the subject of force and violence.

733 Tom Kratman  Tue, May 13, 2008 10:38:50am

re: #730 TalkinKamel

Portugal? Mid 70s. So? We didn't fight in any substanatial way between 72 and 91. (No,the Mayaguez incident, Grenada and Panama hardly count) and then not again until 03. Would they be better for having fought more recently? Probably. But training counts for much, to include, most especially, the training you get more or less with mother's milk.

Also, do try to read and then think more precisely.

734 Tom Kratman  Tue, May 13, 2008 11:01:12am

re: #730 TalkinKamel

"Also, whatever armies the Europeans have, are increasingly manned, as you pointed out, by older and older men. The Moslems have a much younger population. Guess who'se gonna win in an actual fight? European facists doubtless dream of the good old days, when the Jews---a highly moral, civilized, and assimilated minority, proud of their membership in their home countries---could be pushed into cattle cars and stuck behind barbed wire (and even the Jews fought back much harder, and more effectively, than the Euros want to admit), but their restive Islamic "youths" are going to be a much tougher proposition----partly, because the Euros themselves have pampered and enabled them so."

No, that's not what I said. What I said was previously trained older men could be used to guard the barbed wire. Barbed wire, covered by direct fire, cannot be just torn down. See, e.g., WW I, for example.

But you're still fixating on bewailing the morality of an immoral action. That's not the point. The points are a) whether it could be done if some loonies like VB took power in Flanders (or BNP in the UK, I suppose, though that's much less likely), took it out of Belgium, and out of the EU, and b) whether this (the driving out of Moslems) might start a chain reaction elsewhere as there's a sudden rise in the number of Moslems. For b), the historical precedent says "quite possibly." For a)...well, the thing about VB is they're practically a majority party. BNP is tiny and not at the moment too dangerous. One can't say the same for VB; they really are dangerous.


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