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 RetweetSeattle Times Editor: 'Hitler's Demands Were Not Unreasonable'

Fri, May 16, 2008 at 1:14:14 pm PDT

Seattle Times editorial writer Bruce Ramsey, in an effort to defend Barack Obama against President Bush’s “appeasement” speech, actually ends up defending Nazi Germany, Adolf Hitler, and the Anschluss (the annexation of Austria): Bush, and His Use of ‘Appeasement’.

Democrats are rebuking President Bush for saying in his speech to the Knesset, here, that to “negotiate with terrorists and radicals” is “appeasement.” The Democrats took it as a slap at Barack Obama. What bothers me is the continual reference to Hitler and his National Socialists, particularly the British and French accommodation at the Munich Conference of 1938.

What Hitler was demanding was not unreasonable. He wanted the German-speaking areas of Europe under German authority. He had just annexed Austria, which was German-speaking, without bloodshed. There were two more small pieces of Germanic territory: the free city of Danzig and the Sudetenland, a border area of what is now the Czech Republic.

We live in an era when you do not change national borders for these sorts of reasons. But in 1938 it was different. Germany’s eastern and western borders had been redrawn 19 years before—and not to its benefit. In the democracies there was some sense of guilt with how Germany had been treated after World War I. Certainly there was a memory of the “Great War.” In 2008, we have entirely forgotten World War I, and how utterly unlike any conception of “The Good War” it was. When the British let Hitler have a slice of Czechoslovakia, they were following their historical wisdom: avoid war. War produces results far more horrible than you expected. War is a bad investment. It is not glorious. Don’t give anyone an excuse to start one.

Wow.

(Hat tip: Sound Politics.)

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363 comments

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1 jcm  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:15:14pm

My hometown paper so much to be proud of!

*hurl*

2 Ward Cleaver  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:15:40pm

Charles, we really are in The Twilight Zone.

3 LEGION  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:16:07pm

Of course the city and state are pro- Obama. Deep Sigh.

4 Ward Cleaver  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:16:31pm

Ein Volk! Ein Reich! Ein Obama!

5 Squirrelguy  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:16:39pm

WTF? "We live in an era when you do not change national borders for these sorts of reasons. But in 1938 it was different. Germany’s eastern and western borders had been redrawn 19 years before—and not to its benefit."

You start a war, lose the war, you lose your ass. Lucky for them, they were not disbanded. Spoils of war & all that.

6 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:16:46pm
When the British let Hitler have a slice of Czechoslovakia, they were following their historical wisdom: avoid war.


...and that worked out just fine, eh?
/

7 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:16:52pm
8 Ward Cleaver  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:17:05pm

re: #3 LEGION

Of course the city and state are pro- Obama. Deep Sigh.

At least the blue areas. My brother's awful lonely up there.

9 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:17:29pm
10 EC Marm  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:17:56pm

I hope heil regret those words when the drugs wear off.

11 Dianna  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:17:57pm

Good lord!

One friend of mine has always held that had Hitler stopped with Austria he'd have been rather better thought of.

I have always looked at him rather blankly, thinking that it misses the point.

12 X-ray  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:18:00pm

I guess the writer considers the extermination of all Jews reasonable then.

13 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:18:10pm
14 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:18:22pm

I think the Obama campaign has found a real winner with this whole "rehabilitate appeasement" approach.

Keep it up!

You are the ones I've been waiting for.

15 Diamond Bullet  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:18:28pm

This is where moonbattery leads.

Take a close look.

16 jcm  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:18:36pm

Seattle's own Jim "Baghdad" McDimwitt (superdelegate) tosses support to the Obamessiah.

Seattle a great town...
to be from.

17 LEGION  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:18:50pm

re: #5 Squirrelguy

WTF? "We live in an era when you do not change national borders for these sorts of reasons. But in 1938 it was different. Germany’s eastern and western borders had been redrawn 19 years before—and not to its benefit."

You start a war, lose the war, you lose your ass. Lucky for them, they were not disbanded. Spoils of war & all that.

And the same for Israel! They were attacked, they won territory, they get to KEEP it!

18 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:19:10pm

In that case, I hearby announce my plans to annex Seattle as part of the ancestral lands of Kragaristan.

19 justiceforall  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:19:18pm

Bruce Ramsey is wrong, because he knows well what those demands were leading to.

Many countries believe they should have authority over others for various reasons (economic hegomony, imperialism, and so forth). And much of the time, contrary to what Ramsey is saying, it is unreasonable.

20 littleoldlady  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:19:23pm

Twisted.

/yes, I am being kind

21 sparrowlake  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:20:33pm

With supporters like this Ramsey tool, who needs detractors?

22 formercorpsman  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:20:35pm

It is truly amazing, it really is.

Think about this.

One of the favorite political tactics has been to paint your opponents positions as reclaiming the second coming of Hitler.

The Nazi epithet is more pungent during a democratic campaign than a french whorehouse.

They now have completed the circle.

It has come down to defending Hitler.

23 Cygnus  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:20:39pm

The Nazis wouldn't have stopped anyway. They wanted more lebensraum..
Why do the moonbats here have to embarrass us so often?

24 Ojoe  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:20:46pm

Here is a reasonable man. He was right.

Man, how crazy are we in this country?

Doesn't anyone open a history book anymore?

25 Squirrelguy  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:20:53pm

re: #17 LEGION

And the same for Israel! They were attacked, they won territory, they get to KEEP it!

AMEN! That's the way it was in most of all recorded history.
To the victor goes the spoils.

Not to self: Always remember, Pillage, Plunder, THEN Burn!

26 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:21:14pm
27 justiceforall  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:21:30pm

re: #12 X-ray

Well, he doesn't say that. And he's trying to isolate Hitler's initial demands from what he did after that. But we have history to learn from, so that's why he's pretty wrong to look back and to say it was "not unreasonable."

28 mglazer  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:21:30pm

Welcome to America - logic, common sense and reason not required.

29 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:21:50pm
30 Squirrelguy  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:21:55pm

re: #22 formercorpsman

It is truly amazing, it really is.

Think about this.

One of the favorite political tactics has been to paint your opponents positions as reclaiming the second coming of Hitler.

The Nazi epithet is more pungent during a democratic campaign than a french whorehouse.

Well, at least you can have fun in a fwench whorehouse.

31 American Soldier  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:21:59pm

Unfuckingbelievable.
Oh, wait...
Seattle...
MSM...
Never mind.
Viva Aztlan!

32 galloping granny  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:22:28pm

Notice to the Seattle Times:
Fourteen Day Notice to Quit

Some of my relatives once owned the land on which your newspaper office sits. I demand that it is forthwith returned to the control of my people, along with all the rest of the contiguous 48 states save the sole exception of Manhattan, which you legally paid for.

That is "reasonable" isn't it? Just like Hitler was "only being reasonable."

33 Dianna  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:22:30pm

re: #24 Ojoe

Some of our fellow countrypersons live in fantasy land. Nothing bad has ever happened unless it was the United States' fault.

34 guzziguy  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:22:37pm

"Seattle, where people are just too damn weird for California." Glenn Beck

35 Ojoe  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:22:40pm

re: #29 buzzsawmonkey

They should read "The Gathering Storm".

36 TheTick  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:22:41pm

This idiot is just another of the many reasons I stopped taking the Seattle Times years ago.

Of course, the writer misses the whole point. Bush's point is that appeasement doesn't work. Trying to avoid war at any cost doesn't work. Hitler simply provided another example of that truism. The fact the writer is able to use the Hitler example without recognition of that fact is just further evidence of the willful ignorance of Obama supporters. God help us if the majority of voters share that willful ignorance.

If this sort of foolishness didn't make me laugh so much, I would be crying.

37 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:22:49pm

re: #26 song_and_dance_man

Hmmm... Defending B. Hussein is tantamount to defending Hitler.

Am I reading that right?

As in "I could no sooner disown Adolf Hitler as I could a presidential nominee of my country" ?

38 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:23:33pm
39 yma o hyd  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:23:56pm

Un-effing-believable!
That excuse for a journalist obviously has not the faintest idea of history, except perhaps knowing a few slogans here and there.
To even use 1938s Germany as a comparison for the Palis - oh dear, there is so much wrong with that, I don't know where to start!

40 antishock8  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:23:57pm

The sick thing is these people would rather live on their knees than fight for the right to stand on their feet. They spit in the sacrifice our forebearers made for us by trading away Democracy for "peace". What they don't care to realize is they're slowly placing a noose around their own necks as they cozy up to Islamists. I suppose being Socialists themselves they don't really value liberty, a true democracy, or our Republic in the first place.

What a shame.

41 nyc redneck  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:24:30pm

we are living in some crazy times.
when chamberlain left that meeting w/ the nazi, waving his copy of the agreement to give away the sudetenland, the nazis laughed at how easily he capitulated and they ridiculed him as a foolish old weakling. he retuned to england promising 'peace in our time' still waving the 'surrender papers.'

42 justiceforall  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:24:31pm

re: #38 song_and_dance_man

Did the "left" say this, or was it just this one guy? From Charles' post, it seems to be just this one guy, and I'm not sure he speaks for this "left" that you speak of.

43 galloping granny  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:24:36pm

re: #24 Ojoe

Here is a reasonable man. He was right.

Man, how crazy are we in this country?

Doesn't anyone open a history book anymore?

Perhaps, but they have all been rewritten over the last twenty years of so. I search old book stores to find history books for the kiddo that don't claim inanities lile "the muslims invented the lightbulb."

44 Cygnus  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:24:39pm

The only good thing to come out of that era was the Volkswagen.

45 formercorpsman  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:25:33pm

re: #30 Squirrelguy

Yeah, and free penicillin VK as a bonus.

46 Dad O' Blondes  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:25:42pm

What Hitler was demanding was not unreasonable. He wanted the German-speaking areas of Europe under German authority. He had just annexed Austria, which was German-speaking, without bloodshed.

Oh my.

The editors of most dailies in this country have become ignorant of history.

How could someone, an editor of a major daily paper in the US, actually write and publish this?

.

47 Ward Cleaver  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:25:53pm

re: #24 Ojoe

Here is a reasonable man. He was right.

Man, how crazy are we in this country?

Doesn't anyone open a history book anymore?

Only to see who won last year's American Idol.

48 nikis-knight  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:25:54pm

re: #36 TheTick

This idiot is just another of the many reasons I stopped taking the Seattle Times years ago.

Of course, the writer misses the whole point. Bush's point is that appeasement doesn't work. Trying to avoid war at any cost doesn't work. Hitler simply provided another example of that truism. The fact the writer is able to use the Hitler example without recognition of that fact is just further evidence of the willful ignorance of Obama supporters. God help us if the majority of voters share that willful ignorance.

If this sort of foolishness didn't make me laugh so much, I would be crying.

Yup. Maybe what terrorists want is not unreasonable, in some situations (NOT in the case of Israel, hypothetically here). It is still wrong to give in to bullies, because it encourages them and others to be bullies... or terrorists, etc.

49 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:26:00pm
50 jcm  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:26:18pm

re: #38 song_and_dance_man

First the left says Bush is like Hitler and then they say Hitler was reasonable.

With the left you can have it both ways.

There you go again...
Trying to apply logic to moonbats.

51 kevinmumaw  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:26:30pm

This looks like it was lifted from StormFront!

52 nyc redneck  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:26:42pm

re: #38 song_and_dance_man

First the left says Bush is like Hitler and then they say Hitler was reasonable.

With the left you can have it both ways.

they like to have their waffle and eat it too.

53 Ojoe  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:26:56pm

re: #46 Dad O' Blondes

As I recall nazi thugs did a lot of murder in Austria before it was annexed ...

54 Squirrelguy  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:27:02pm

re: #52 nyc redneck

they like to have their waffle and eat it too.

Waffle, DRINK!

55 LEGION  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:27:16pm

re: #41 nyc redneck

we are living in some crazy times.
when chamberlain left that meeting w/ the nazi, waving his copy of the agreement to give away the sudetenland, the nazis laughed at how easily he capitulated and they ridiculed him as a foolish old weakling. he retuned to england promising 'peace in our time' still waving the 'surrender papers.'

The thing is, Chamberlain later realized he'd been duped and worked hard with Churchill in defeating the Nazi's. Our left is so stupid they still don't realize they have been tricked. That's what spit for brains will do to you.

56 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:27:26pm
57 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:27:40pm
58 wrenchwench  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:27:51pm

Well, they speak a lot of Spanish here in New Mexico, and heck, it has "Mexico" in the name. I guess we should open the border, or move it!

59 jcm  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:27:53pm

re: #52 nyc redneck

they like to have their waffle and eat it too.

they like to have their waffen...

60 experiencedtraveller  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:28:10pm
In 2008, we have entirely forgotten World War I,

I, sir, have NOT forgotten WWI and I'll challenge your knowledge on the subject any day.

61 psaturn  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:28:24pm

I agree Charles...wow

62 Catttt  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:28:28pm

So then - by that logic, are we to assume that if Great Britain decides it wants the USA back, then we should let them have us, to avoid any possibility of war? I think not.

Queue Patrick Henry:

The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, sir, we have no election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged! Their clanking may be heard on the plains of Boston! The war is inevitable -- and let it come! I repeat it, sir, let it come!

It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, "Peace! Peace!" -- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!

Patrick Henry - March 23, 1775

63 Cygnus  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:28:33pm

re: #52 nyc redneck

they like to have their waffle blutwurst and eat it too.

/Deutschland uber alles

64 yodafunk  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:28:35pm

So by this logic, its only a matter of time before Mexico decides it is in their best interest to "annex" the southwestern United States.

65 justiceforall  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:28:36pm

re: #46 Dad O' Blondes

What Hitler was demanding was not unreasonable. He wanted the German-speaking areas of Europe under German authority. He had just annexed Austria, which was German-speaking, without bloodshed.

Oh my.

The editors of most dailies in this country have become ignorant of history.

How could someone, an editor of a major daily paper in the US, actually write and publish this?

.

How could someone write and publish this? Probably to get attention, even if it is negative, most likely.

66 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:28:39pm
67 Shug  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:29:05pm

Men like this are the reason millions ended up as lampshades and bars of soap

68 sparrowlake  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:29:18pm

re: #26 song_and_dance_man

Hmmm... Defending B. Hussein is tantamount to defending Hitler.
Am I reading that right?


Defending Hitler is is this case a failed attempt to defend BHO but ends up being tantamount to sticking a shiv in his back, Arab-style.

69 josephjcox  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:29:24pm

The world would have been better off had Hitler not been appeased.

In fact, the world would have been better off had he been hit by a targeted assassination, Hamas style.

That shouldn't be too hard to grasp.

70 Globular Cluster  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:29:39pm
What Hitler was demanding was not unreasonable. He wanted the German-speaking areas of Europe under German authority. He had just annexed Austria, which was German-speaking, without bloodshed

I want English-speaking areas of the world under American authority.

71 mjwsatx  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:30:01pm

I wonder if Ramsey would be so generous when Israelis "redraw" their borders so that they can reasonably defend their nation. No, he probably wants Israel to return to the same non-defensible border that was granted by the UN in 1948 - before 4 vicious attacks by her good neighbors.

I guess if "war is a bad investment - don't give anyone an excuse to start one" means the very existence of Israel is a bad idea to this guy and cretins like him. Only Adolph Hitler gets cut some slack.

72 lawhawk  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:30:01pm

Seattle's Dumb as a Post Intelligencer? And you're surprised at this?

Really...

73 jcm  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:30:03pm

re: #56 song_and_dance_man

I can imagine the lefty minions nodding their head in approval. Let's see if someone of note on the left criticizes Bruce Ramsey and his cattywompus historical observation.

Empty bobblehead moonbats all over Seattle nodding away.

74 galloping granny  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:30:09pm

re: #62 Cattt

So then - by that logic, are we to assume that if Great Britain decides it wants the USA back, then we should let them have us, to avoid any possibility of war? I think not.

Queue Patrick Henry:

Sorry, my relatives were here first. The Dutch get Manhattan.

75 Sloatsburgh  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:30:13pm

Peace is a state of being,

Not a end-game goal.

76 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:30:19pm
77 formercorpsman  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:30:26pm

Is not Osama asking for a part of Spain?

78 Dianna  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:30:40pm

re: #64 yodafunk

They can try. I would object rather strenuously.

79 yma o hyd  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:30:45pm

re: #41 nyc redneck

we are living in some crazy times.
when chamberlain left that meeting w/ the nazi, waving his copy of the agreement to give away the sudetenland, the nazis laughed at how easily he capitulated and they ridiculed him as a foolish old weakling. he retuned to england promising 'peace in our time' still waving the 'surrender papers.'

What a lot of people even now don't get is that Chamberlain may have acted in 'good faith' - but precisely that good faith was it which enabled Hitler & Co to prepare for war.
You don't just wake up one morning, being the leader of a country, and say, nice day, lets start a war ... there is an enormous amount of preparation for it, taking time.
Chamberlain proved to Hitler's generals that indeed they could prepare for a war which they could win, that there would be no serious opposition, certainly not from Great Britain.

Fools who do not learn from history are forced to repeat it - wouldn't be so bad if it didn't cost so many innocent lives.

80 Shug  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:30:50pm

re: #77 formercorpsman

Is not Osama asking for a part of Spain?


very reasonable of him

/

81 Squirrelguy  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:30:50pm

re: #70 Globular Cluster

I want English-speaking areas of the world under American authority.

Including all airports/contol towers.

82 Catttt  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:30:59pm

re: #74 galloping granny

Sorry, my relatives were here first. The Dutch get Manhattan.

Sorry, but my mom's relatives were here before the Dutch. :D

83 tappin52  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:31:22pm

re: #24 Ojoe

The history books have been "adjusted".

84 bosforus  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:31:26pm

I just don't see how Obama thinks he's coming out on top of this situation. He's so obviously in the wrong here on every aspect.

85 Shug  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:31:30pm

re: #82 Cattt

Sorry, but my mom's relatives were here before the Dutch. :D

Vikings?

86 justiceforall  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:31:41pm

re: #70 Globular Cluster

Are you sure you want the Falklands?

87 Dianna  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:31:49pm

re: #66 buzzsawmonkey

But this time, it's Seattle.

You have no idea how relieved I am by that.

88 Squirrelguy  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:31:51pm

re: #74 galloping granny

Sorry, my relatives were here first. The Dutch get Manhattan.

Amen. And the mexicans still get kicked back south of the Rio Grande.

89 Salem  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:32:03pm

So England should control all English-speaking nations?

90 Squirrelguy  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:32:15pm

re: #82 Cattt

Sorry, but my mom's relatives were here before the Dutch. :D

But the bought it legally.

91 Cygnus  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:32:16pm

re: #70 Globular Cluster

I want English-speaking areas of the world under American authority.

Would that include Engrish-speaking areas?

92 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:32:16pm

Sure just because Austria had always been an independent country before, what could be more reasonable? Why demanding the German speaking regions of Czechoslovakia!

As I recall things went somewhat sour from there...

Oh right! There was a big fricking war, tens of millions of people died including a third of the Jewish people and Europe was in rubble and divided.

What an utter ignoramus! No wonder he is an editor, it is perfect for his core competencies!

93 sparrowlake  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:32:33pm

re: #66 buzzsawmonkey

Having it both ways sounds so very Californian, in light of recent court news.

Can bi-sexuals get married twice?

94 AMER1CAN  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:32:45pm

I left a comment for the paper, but of course it has to go through an "approval" process so it's properly washed and pressed first.

95 quickjustice  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:33:06pm

The appeasers are baaack! They ran Europe for most of the time between WWI and WWII. The British and the French sold out Austria and Eastern Europe, and still couldn't avoid war.

So what countries will Obama and the Democrats sell out to preserve "peace in our time"? Any guesses?

And why, exactly, would the entire Democrat Party assume that Bush was referring to them in referring to an historical American appeaser in Israel?

96 mikalm  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:33:18pm
97 maddogg  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:33:26pm

Excellent! With friends like this, Obama may well be able to lose to Sleepy John, after all.

98 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:33:28pm

re: #74 galloping granny

Sorry, my relatives were here first. The Dutch get Manhattan.

Sorry, most of you are all speaking Romance languages and those lands were once under the Roman Empire. We Italians get it all back with interest.

99 galloping granny  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:33:32pm

re: #82 Cattt

Sorry, but my mom's relatives were here before the Dutch. :D

Yes, but your Mom's relatives legally sold Manhattan for $28 worth of beads and trinkets :)

100 bosforus  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:33:41pm

re: #94 AMER1CAN

I left a comment for the paper, but of course it has to go through an "approval" process so it's properly washed and pressed first.

The way I feel about those approval processes is at least someone reads it.

101 lawhawk  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:33:48pm

Fine. Let's take this idiot's example and apply it to another situation.

It's not unreasonable for Israel to annex and incorporate the West Bank, and Golan and Jerusalem into its country. After all, they share an undeniable historical, political, and Jewish bond that stretches back more than 2000 years. Anything less would be unconscionable.

After all, we live in an era when you do not change national borders for these sorts of reasons, which is exactly what the Palestinians hope to do.

I somehow suspect that this guy wouldn't support that kind of application.

102 yodafunk  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:34:29pm

re: #78 Dianna

I say we make the ultimate sacrifice and give them California.

103 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:34:40pm
104 Dianna  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:34:42pm

re: #86 justiceforall

Why not? That way, we can secure the wool supply.

/

105 Tumulus11  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:34:43pm
'But the Palestinians who fight Israel do have a just claim to territory. We can argue what it is; we can argue about the justness of their military tactics, and so on.'


. An appeaser and an apologist for terrorist mass murder all wrapped up in one Hussein supporter.

106 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:34:52pm

re: #101 lawhawk

Fine. Let's take this idiot's example and apply it to another situation.

It's not unreasonable for Israel to annex and incorporate the West Bank, and Golan and Jerusalem into its country. After all, they share an undeniable historical, political, and Jewish bond that stretches back more than 2000 years. Anything less would be unconscionable.

After all, we live in an era when you do not change national borders for these sorts of reasons, which is exactly what the Palestinians hope to do.

I somehow suspect that this guy wouldn't support that kind of application.

Dont forget Jordan and Syria

107 coquimbojoe  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:35:06pm

Unfortunately this passes for intelligent discussion on the left. But, then again, Hitler was a leftist, so his thinking makes sense to them.

108 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:35:22pm

re: #102 yodafunk

I say we make the ultimate sacrifice and give them California.

As a Californian, piss up a rope.

109 Opinionated  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:35:23pm

Need a new leader to restore
our former glory and get the world to like us
Where, oh, where is he?
Where could that man be?
We looked around and then we found
The man for you and me

Springtime for Obama

Don't be stupid, be a smarty, come and join the change party!

110 yma o hyd  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:35:34pm

re: #89 Salem

So England should control all English-speaking nations?

Definitely!
We did it once, after all: have the experience, see :-))

111 Ringo the Gringo  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:35:36pm

Bad craziness.

112 Daisy  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:35:44pm

re: #22 formercorpsman

"It has come down to defending Hitler."

And logically so .. considering their goals are synchronistic.

113 really grumpy big dog johnson  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:35:55pm

re: #66 buzzsawmonkey

Having it both ways sounds so very Californian, in light of recent court news.

Same sex marriage is the logical precursor to legal polygamy. It's the next step in the slippery slope to adopting the failed traditions of Islam.

114 BGB!  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:35:57pm

I love to have seen these leftists have the balls to protest in Nazi Germany as they do now, with their "No blood for Austria" signs. Besides, if Bush really does equal Hitler then wouldent this guy be in a work camp (if he's lucky).

115 coquimbojoe  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:35:58pm

re: #93 sparrowlake

Can bi-sexuals get married twice?

Why the hell not?

116 Dianna  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:36:00pm

re: #102 yodafunk

I was born in California, and I own property in California.

There is no way I am giving California away.

117 yodafunk  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:36:13pm

re: #108 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Ok, San Fransisco and Berkley then?

118 Mardukhai  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:36:33pm

Sudetenland was part of Austria, not Germany.

And should Germany "return" territory near the Danish border that had a Danish majority? (And should the US give Laredo to Mexico because it now has a Mexican majority?)

And it just wasn't about German-speaking areas. The Sudetenland was a ring of thick mountains, highly defensible against Hitler's new army. Blitzkrieg wouldn't work there.

Once Germany occupied the Sudetenland, the Bohemian plain was open, defenseless, and completely surrounded by German troops. The Czechs had no choice but to surrender.

This guy's an idiot.

119 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:36:34pm
120 El matamoros  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:37:01pm

WHAT A DOUCHE! I love these debased morons who try to spew historical truth when in reality they have not clue one about what they are talking about. SO according to his "wisdom" England should get Ireland becuase they "speak english", oh and Canada, WATCH OUT! You speak English and so does the US, I guess that means we get to annex you. Once we attempt to annex you i fully expect every Euro-liberal to fully defend our demands, which are actually quite reasonable!

But lets get down to the nitty-gritty of history --
#1 Hitler attacked POLAND, he knew it meant war, Britain did NOT attack Germany first.
#2 Poland last time i checked has, um, poles? NOT Germans.
#3 Germany also invaded DENMARK, NORWAY, HOLLAND and Belgium.
NONE of these countries were "allies" of england they were neutral. Hitler just wanted them. But that's OK because Hitler's demands were REASONABLE! LOL!
#4 Germany also invaded Russia! I meniton this becuase unlike those other countries Russia was actually ALLIED with Germany in a non-aggression pact. Though they were not obliged to join forces with Germany if attacked they both carved up Poland and Russia supplied Hitler with millions of tonnes of war material. Yet hitler still attacked them. Why? The German "volk" needed living space. But that's ok becuase Hitlers demands were reasonable!

121 sparrowlake  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:37:08pm

re: #95 quickjustice

The appeasers are baaraaack!
Fixed it.

122 justiceforall  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:37:08pm

re: #101 lawhawk

Were there Jews living in what we now call the West Bank and Gaza before Zionists started settling in what was, I'm pretty sure, was British-controled Palestine? Seriously, do you know?

123 galloping granny  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:37:14pm

re: #92 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

Sure just because Austria had always been an independent country before, what could be more reasonable? Why demanding the German speaking regions of Czechoslovakia!

As I recall things went somewhat sour from there...

Oh right! There was a big fricking war, tens of millions of people died including a third of the Jewish people and Europe was in rubble and divided.

What an utter ignoramus! No wonder he is an editor, it is perfect for his core competencies!

Austria was not an independent country but the heart and soul of the Holy Roman Empire, which included what is today northern Italy, all of Austria, Czechoslavakia and more. Never was part of "Germany," which until the time of WWI or shortly before really was Prussia. Hesse-Darmstadt was independent, as was Bavaria. You've heard of Mad King Ludwig of Bavaria, correct? His castle at Neuschwanstein was the model for the Disney castle logo.

124 Fat Jolly Penguin  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:37:21pm
125 MandyManners  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:37:25pm

re: #117 yodafunk

Love the nic.

126 josephjcox  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:37:56pm

The Palis can have reasonable demands - say a state. But the very nature of the way they are going about securing those ought to make anybody do everything they can not to reward them. Even if they were to stop at a state (of course, the terrorism kinda suggests they'd like to do a little more than just that), we oughtn't to reward them for their behavior.

127 lawhawk  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:38:16pm
When the British let Hitler have a slice of Czechoslovakia, they were following their historical wisdom: avoid war. War produces results far more horrible than you expected. War is a bad investment. It is not glorious. Don’t give anyone an excuse to start one.

And every leftist ever since has thought that they had the magic solution that Chamberlain couldn't come up with to avoid war. And they'll fail miserably every time.

Appeasement leads to war - and a conflict far worse than if you confront the evil you face directly. Of course, there's no easily quantifiable way to prove this, which is why the left will always claim that you have to attempt appeasement first even though history reveals that appeasement results in no fewer conflicts and those that occur end up being far worse.

Appeasement emboldens enemies and perceives this as weakness to be exploited.

We see this time and time again in the ME.

Yet, we're supposed to think that Hitler's demands were not unreasonable?

128 Dripping sarcasm  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:38:24pm

Charlie Brown said it best;

AAAUUUGH!

And Charles Schulz (rest his soul) would know ... as a staff-seargent in the U.S. 20th armored division during WW II, he actually fought against Hitler's "reasonable" war machine.

pack sand, Ramsey.

129 galloping granny  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:38:25pm

re: #98 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Sorry, most of you are all speaking Romance languages and those lands were once under the Roman Empire. We Italians get it all back with interest.

You have no claim at all to North America. Amerigo Vespucci and Columbus were not working for Italy.

130 pegcity  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:38:34pm

any doubt the modern left would have been full hearted nazis

131 Squirrelguy  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:38:42pm

re: #108 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

As a Californian, piss up a rope.

Geez, we're back to Algebra & Physics.

132 just another four-letter word  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:38:54pm

re: #16 jcm

Seattle's own Jim "Baghdad" McDimwitt (superdelegate) tosses support to the Obamessiah.

Seattle a great town...
to be from.

Well, I've got the Cascades between you and me, but unfortunately I'm still a Washingtonian. Just as unfortunately, we have a moonbat Governor and two Senators. Toss "Baghdad Bob" McDermott into the mix, and I want to move to Idaho (tried Oregon, it's only slightly more moonbatty than the Greater Seattle Area).

Unfortunately, it looks like Spokane's going down the tubes as well.

Montana, maybe?

Yeesh!

JAFLW

133 Widow'smight  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:38:58pm

re: #101 lawhawk

Just go back to the Borders during King Solomon's reign.

134 iamspartacus  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:39:04pm

This is analogous to what this man wrote:

Fire is cold. It is used to freeze fish and preserve dairy products. Fire can be used as a natural skin moisturizer. Contacting fire with skin produces a pleasurable tickling feeling. Those aren't bones in the kiln.

135 justiceforall  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:39:06pm

re: #107 coquimbojoe

That's odd. Hitler said a lot of nasty things about leftists, and had a tendency to kill them.

136 ted  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:39:16pm

"
What Hitler was demanding was not unreasonable. He wanted the Jews German-speaking areas of Europe under German authority. He had just annexed Austria, which was Jewish German-speaking, without bloodshed. There were two no more small pieces of Jewish Germanic territory: the free city of Danzig and the Sudetenland, a border area of what is now the Czech Judenfrei Republic.

Fixed.

137 OldLineTexan  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:39:31pm

I have Czech, Bohemian, and Moravian ancestors, and some living relatives who are practically from the Old Country. Lots of these folks in Texas.

The living ones don't have a Nakba, but they do not remember Herr Hitler as "reasonable".

Neither does anyone else in my family who lived through Hitler's war for world domination.

This guy is a fool in the Biblical sense, and yes, I realize I am going to pay for that.

138 Salem  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:39:50pm

re: #130 pegcity

any doubt the modern left would have been full hearted nazis

In brief, I think that about sums it up...

139 psaturn  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:40:05pm

re: #102 yodafunk

I say we make the ultimate sacrifice and give them California.

Then Charles would have to learn Spanish!

140 galloping granny  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:40:08pm

re: #110 yma o hyd

Definitely!
We did it once, after all: have the experience, see :-))

And just look at the mess you made of it the first time around!

141 Dianna  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:40:10pm

re: #117 yodafunk

I work in San Francisco, and The Other Change of Hobbit is in Berkeley.

No.

How about we give away your home?

142 formercorpsman  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:40:12pm

re: #112 Daisy

You know, I have gone back and read this over 3 times.

It is absolutely amazing.

It is astounding.

What a fucking imbecile this prick is.

143 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:40:30pm

re: #129 galloping granny

You have no claim at all to North America. Amerigo Vespucci and Columbus were not working for Italy.

Ah, but they were still speaking a language which had Latin as a basis when they discovered it, so its ours.

144 Squirrelguy  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:40:42pm

re: #129 galloping granny

You have no claim at all to North America. Amerigo Vespucci and Columbus were not working for Italy.

My ancestors came here 10,000 years ago. The Romans weren't even drips down their momma's legs.

145 maddogg  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:40:43pm

Well, now you know what the hippies do for a living now. Peace, love, better red than dead, etc.

As I've said 850,000 times, I don't fear the Islamists, I fear moonbats in positions of irresponsibility.

146 just another four-letter word  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:40:48pm

re: #34 guzziguy

"Seattle, where people are just too damn weird for California." Glenn Beck

AMEN

JAFLW

147 jcm  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:41:21pm

re: #99 galloping granny

Yes, but your Mom's relatives legally sold Manhattan for $28 worth of beads and trinkets :)

Your relative where pretty sharp on the deal too...

The Canarsee didn't yet have a bridge to sell Minuit, so they made do instead with selling the Dutch an island they did not own. The tribe that was really screwed, here, were the Weckquaesgeeks, an Algonquin tribe that hunted the island, but favored the more forested, northern parts.
148 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:41:25pm
149 Cicero05  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:41:25pm
When the British let Hitler have a slice of Czechoslovakia, they were following their historical wisdom: avoid war. War produces results far more horrible than you expected. War is a bad investment. It is not glorious. Don’t give anyone an excuse to start one.

I'm assuming that anything with this level of supendous naivete had a first draft that was written in crayon.

150 really grumpy big dog johnson  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:42:00pm

re: #107 coquimbojoe

Unfortunately this passes for intelligent discussion on the left. But, then again, Hitler was a leftist, so his thinking makes sense to them.

A nazi dictator is anything but a left winger, although the line is getting more obscure all the time. It's almost like when you fall off the left fringe of the left, you turn into a radical right wing totalitarian. The moonbats of both extremes have much in common.

151 OldLineTexan  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:42:10pm

re: #108 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

As a Californian, piss up a rope.

They already have most of the southern end, just like they do here in Texas. And by "they", I mean Mexicans, NOT USAmericans of Mexican descent.

152 lawhawk  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:42:13pm

re: #122 justiceforall

Were there Jews living in what we now call the West Bank and Gaza before Zionists started settling in what was, I'm pretty sure, was British-controled Palestine? Seriously, do you know?

Absolutely. There were kibbutzim in the West Bank that predated 1948.

Jews lived in Hebron (located in the West Bank) continuously pretty much since the Temple period 2000 years ago. That string was broken by the Palestinian massacre in 1929.

153 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:42:13pm
154 formercorpsman  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:42:37pm

re: #135 justiceforall

I forget, but I swear I could remember the word socialist somewhere in there.

155 BingoBunny  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:43:06pm

A few more years of Demorats giving the Nazi's of our age what they want in return for peace.. Whats to worry about?

156 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:43:10pm

re: #151 OldLineTexan

They already have most of the southern end, just like they do here in Texas. And by "they", I mean Mexicans, NOT USAmericans of Mexican descent.

I am in the Southern end. I prefer a stand and fight approach rather than a let them have it approach.

157 KingKenrod  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:43:11pm
When the British let Hitler have a slice of Czechoslovakia, they were following their historical wisdom: avoid war.

I forget - how'd that work out for the British? They avoided the war, right?

158 mikalm  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:43:16pm

re: #141 Dianna

I work in San Francisco, and The Other Change of Hobbit is in Berkeley.

No biggie. Isn't the far superior Dark Carnival in Oakland?

159 yodafunk  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:43:20pm

re: #141 Dianna

Damn, you few conservatives in Cali make it hard to give it away or push it off into the Pacific. My bad.

160 MandyManners  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:43:39pm

re: #122 justiceforall

Were there Jews living in what we now call the West Bank and Gaza before Zionists started settling in what was, I'm pretty sure, was British-controled Palestine? Seriously, do you know?

Nekama's Hammer.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

161 really grumpy big dog johnson  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:43:42pm

re: #115 coquimbojoe

Why the hell not?

But it would have to be two two people of your same sex. Otherwise, it would be polygamy.

/just citing an obvious example of the slippery slope.

162 formercorpsman  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:43:55pm

re: #136 ted

Perhaps a little more affirmation of your aforementioned diagnosis?

163 just another four-letter word  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:44:02pm

re: #42 justiceforall

Did the "left" say this, or was it just this one guy? From Charles' post, it seems to be just this one guy, and I'm not sure he speaks for this "left" that you speak of.

Don't try to weasel the LLL out of this - too many people believe this sort of feldgarb and all of them are flaming moonbats. On the Left. Got it yet?

C'mon, use a little of your "powers of observation" instead of playing suck-up. Hitler was just one guy, too. Look where that led...

JAFLW

164 galloping granny  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:44:10pm

re: #144 Squirrelguy

My ancestors came here 10,000 years ago. The Romans weren't even drips down their momma's legs.

Mine too. Part of them anyway.

165 tommygum  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:44:14pm

re: #11 Dianna

Good lord!

One friend of mine has always held that had Hitler stopped with Austria he'd have been rather better thought of.

I have always looked at him rather blankly, thinking that it misses the point.

re: #24 Ojoe

Dan Akroyd played Jimmy Carter. Dan Akroyd had a moustashe. Neville Chamberlain had a moustache.

Coinsidence? I don't think so...

166 nikis-knight  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:44:24pm

re: #76 song_and_dance_man

Having it both ways sounds so very Californian, in light of recent court news.

It extends to all aspects of the day of their lives.


Let's remember this is from Seattle, not CA.
/half sarc

167 Mars Needs Neocons  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:44:27pm

The thing is Hitler spelled his plans out pretty clearly in advance.

Nothing like that is happening now.

/do I really need to bother

168 yma o hyd  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:44:33pm

re: #140 galloping granny

And just look at the mess you made of it the first time around!

Heh - it only got messy after we left!

(And after the Left got to govern our country ...)

169 Fat Jolly Penguin  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:44:42pm

re: #135 justiceforall

That's odd. Hitler said a lot of nasty things about leftists, and had a tendency to kill them.

Not to toot my own horn, but... re: #124 Fat Jolly Penguin

170 JHW  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:44:44pm

I live in the wilds of Washington and don't look at the Seattle rags, but this Google-fu has me wondering. Is Ramsey a laupnor supporter?

Bruce Ramsey, Bruce Ramsey is a journalist in Seattle and a senior editor of Liberty.

Liberty Foundation

171 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:45:03pm

I wish I subscribed to this paper so I could tell them where to shove it while cancelling it.

The left is showing their stripes.
And the liberal Jews don't see their comrades are going to thrown them under the bus or into the cattle cars as soon as it is convenient.

172 just another four-letter word  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:45:09pm

re: #46 Dad O' Blondes

What Hitler was demanding was not unreasonable. He wanted the German-speaking areas of Europe under German authority. He had just annexed Austria, which was German-speaking, without bloodshed.

Oh my.

The editors of most dailies in this country have become ignorant of history.

How could someone, an editor of a major daily paper in the US, actually write and publish this?

.

You answered your own question. They are ignorant, perhaps willfully so!

JAFLW

173 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:45:12pm
174 Mardukhai  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:45:38pm

re: #70 Globular Cluster

I want English-speaking areas of the world under American authority.

Good one! Let's start with San Francisco!

: - ))

175 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:45:40pm
176 Occasional Reader  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:45:50pm

re: #74 galloping granny

Sorry, my relatives were here first. The Dutch get Manhattan.

Nope, y'all traded it for Suriname. Enjoy.

177 jcm  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:46:05pm

re: #132 just another four-letter word

At least I have fun while on the wet side. My truck still has Bush stickers, I wear my USS Ronald Reagan hat.

I do battle with the moonbats at work. They don't try much any more, I fact 'em right out of arguments.

178 jaunte  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:46:11pm

Bruce Ramsey:
"The step that must be taken now is for the two sides to talk, so that they can make a deal that both will accept, and that each side will enforce against its radical elements."

Ahistorical, unlettered, purblind idjit.

179 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:46:17pm

re: #75 Sloatsburgh

Peace is a state of being,

Not a end-game goal.

The kind of Peace this schmuck and the Palis want for the Jews is a state of non-being.

180 OldLineTexan  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:46:23pm

re: #156 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I am in the Southern end. I prefer a stand and fight approach rather than a let them have it approach.

You don't have to tell me; my bunch was involved in small scrap in 1836 over this kind of question.

HOWEVER...I go down certain streets around these parts that may as well be in Mexico. And I have been in the exact same situation in LA. You tell me what kind of fight is going on.

181 clydejumper  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:46:41pm

What BS. I can't believe my eyes. This is pure lets stick our head in the sand and everyone will get along. Hitler wanted to control the world. You do not APPEASE a lunatic or what ever the PC term is now. People need to wake up and realize that we are not liked by the Muslims (extremist or not) they would rather see us dead. They don't want pretty speeches and flowers from us. They simply want us out of existence.

182 really grumpy big dog johnson  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:46:41pm

McCain's counter to Obama's bitchfest is on Fox News right now. He'll blasting both barrels...

183 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:46:49pm

re: #144 Squirrelguy

My ancestors came here 10,000 years ago. The Romans weren't even drips down their momma's legs.

Ah, but how much is modern society influenced by what they did?

184 Daisy  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:47:11pm

"When the British Chamberlain let Hitler have a slice of Czechoslovakia, they were following their historical wisdom: avoid war."

Churchill had some decidedly different opinions than the appeasing PM, as did many more stalwart then Chamberlain British people.

185 galloping granny  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:47:23pm

re: #168 yma o hyd

Heh - it only got messy after we left!

(And after the Left got to govern our country ...)


Yes, it sure did get messy after you left, didn't it. Sad.

186 Squirrelguy  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:47:24pm

re: #171 Kosh's Shadow

I wish I subscribed to this paper so I could tell them where to shove it while cancelling it.

The left is showing their stripes.
And the liberal Jews don't see their comrades are going to thrown them under the bus or into the cattle cars as soon as it is convenient.

Barry Hussein Obama threw his OWN grandmother under the bus. He threw his pastor of 20 years under the bus.

Why can't they see that he wouldn't hesitate to throw them under the bus?

187 arier_tzvi  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:47:29pm

many of the moonbat lefties back in the days prior to WWII (holocaust Shoah) were huge supporters of Germany and Nazism. Many German immigrants in the U.S. were proud to support the German Cause. All you have to do is look that up in History.

188 J.S.  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:47:51pm

re: #122 justiceforall

"Were there Jews Arabs living in what we now call the West Bank and Gaza before Zionists started settling in what was, I'm pretty sure, was British-controled Palestine?"

There, fixed it for ya.

189 see bs  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:48:05pm

Wow... I just... wow.. what a moron...

"What Hitler was demanding was not unreasonable."

I can't understand how stupid people are...

190 bulwrk  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:48:10pm

re: #135 justiceforall

That's odd. Hitler said a lot of nasty things about leftists, and had a tendency to kill them.


Hitler was a leftest it was the communist that he hated.

191 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:48:52pm

re: #180 OldLineTexan

You don't have to tell me; my bunch was involved in small scrap in 1836 over this kind of question.

HOWEVER...I go down certain streets around these parts that may as well be in Mexico. And I have been in the exact same situation in LA. You tell me what kind of fight is going on.

We should have never given them back the land after 1848.

192 Squirrelguy  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:49:02pm

re: #180 OldLineTexan

You don't have to tell me; my bunch was involved in small scrap in 1836 over this kind of question.

HOWEVER...I go down certain streets around these parts that may as well be in Mexico. And I have been in the exact same situation in LA. You tell me what kind of fight is going on.

I hear people say they will stand & fight. Haven't heard any gunfire yet.

193 MandyManners  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:49:03pm

[Link: seattletimes.nwsource.com...]

Ramsey's bio and contacts.

194 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:49:06pm
195 Daisy  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:49:07pm

re: #161 really grumpy big dog johnson

"But it would have to be two two people of your same sex. Otherwise, it would be polygamy."

What if 6 or 7 gay people wanted to join matrimonial forces .. wouldn't that also constitute polygamy?

196 infidel Alan  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:49:44pm

Ramsey misses the real problem in 1938: the French and British failed to recognize Hitler as a murderous psychopath who could not be trusted to honor any agreement or treaty. Our Democrats have a similar problem recognizing the jihadists for what they are.

197 ronaldusmagnus  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:49:52pm

"He had just annexed Austria...without bloodshed."

Perhaps because Austria surrendered out of fear of bloodshed due to Germany's threats and military superiority?

Any idiot with a crayon...

198 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:49:53pm

re: #187 arier_tzvi

many of the moonbat lefties back in the days prior to WWII (holocaust Shoah) were huge supporters of Germany and Nazism. Many German immigrants in the U.S. were proud to support the German Cause. All you have to do is look that up in History.

The History dept had been scrapped to make room for the Social Justice and Peace Studies Depts.

199 bellamags  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:49:57pm

re: #195 Daisy

Super Friends

200 livefreeor die  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:50:13pm

I'm sure that Ramsey can give historical examples where this kind of approach worked well in the long run. Right?
.
.
.
Crickets

201 chinesearithmetic  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:50:21pm

My mother was a Jewish resident of the Czech region ceded to Nazi Germany. She and my grandmother knew that the German annexation of her region was a death sentence, and they fled to England. My grandfather was a pediatrician who stayed, hoping the Third Reich would be driven out. Before it was, he was murdered in Auschwitz. Thank you for the history lesson, Mr. Ramsey.

202 EE  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:50:22pm

Is Seattle Times editor Bruce Ramsey primarily a supporter of Barack Obama, primarily a supporter of the Nazi demands, or primarily a supporter of appeasement? I think that, from his statements, he is a firm believer in attempting to resort to appeasement of one's enemies.

This confirms the statement made by the President that there are people who believe in appeasement.

President Bush did not mention Obama; he just pointed out that there are those who believe in appeasement of one's enemies, and who do not learn from history. Well Seattle Times editor Bruce Ramsey is one of those.

Those who believe in appeasement of one's enemies as a workable policy have not learned from history. And they are attracted to Barack Obama because they recognize a kindred spirit in Obama.

Since these are believers in appeasement uber alles, and they have not learned from history, they are forced to defend the appeasement of Hitler at Munich -- and that is what Seattle Times editor Bruce Ramsey has done.

Obama's whining and crybaby tactics over the fact that the policy of appeasement is being criticised -- which he takes as a personal rebuke for some reason -- serves to underscore Obama's making his reputation as a wimp. He is acting like a wimp in the political campaign, and as Harry Truman said, if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen. That's why he won't debate Hillary, and that's why he cries about the fact that the policy of appeasement has been criticised. But the most dangerous aspect of his wimpiness is that he is the advocate of a basically wimpy foreign policy toward enemies. That is what the effort at appeasement is: surrendering to enemy demands, in the hope that that will stop the flow of blackmail and extortionary demands. It is basically a wimpish policy that ensures that the blackmail and extortion will continue.

The Seattle Times editor understands that if we want a Wimp-in-Chief, then we need to elect Barack Hussein Obama.

203 justiceforall  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:50:37pm

re: #188 J.S.

I was actually asking if Jews lived there before the Zionist settlement because I didn't know, so as to better understand another poster's question he/she wished to pose to Mr. Ramsey.

204 sparrowlake  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:50:40pm

re: #137 OldLineTexan

This guy is a fool in the Biblical sense, and yes, I realize I am going to pay for that.

I once had an elderly Austrian neighbour who was "forced" to join the Hitler youth. He told me that Hitler was actually very good for "the people" even though he was terrible to the Jews. He fondly recalled that Hitler greatly improved the train service.

205 Peter Verkooijen  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:50:51pm

re: #9 song_and_dance_man

hing = hint

I really should PIMB

Preview Is My...Buddy? Bitch? Benefactor?

206 coquimbojoe  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:50:55pm

re: #135 justiceforall

That's odd. Hitler said a lot of nasty things about leftists, and had a tendency to kill them.

Yes, but he was a socialist. Big centralized government, control the economy, fellow traveller with Mussolini. He didn't like the competition from the communists. Come on read the history.

207 solomonpanting  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:50:58pm

Perhaps President Bush was referring to Jimmy with his appeasement remark?
In regards to the article, that's what happens when one possesses a Seaddled brain.

208 just another four-letter word  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:51:00pm

re: #99 galloping granny

re: #82 Cattt

Sorry, but my mom's relatives were here before the Dutch. :D

Yes, but your Mom's relatives legally sold Manhattan for $28 worth of beads and trinkets :)

Is that adjusted for inflation? :)

JAFLW

209 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:51:45pm
210 yma o hyd  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:51:58pm

re: #178 jaunte

Bruce Ramsey:
"The step that must be taken now is for the two sides to talk, so that they can make a deal that both will accept, and that each side will enforce against its radical elements."

Ahistorical, unlettered, purblind idjit.

The really scary thing here is that these eejits haven't the faintest clue that 'talking to make a deal they can both accept' doesn't work with Hamas or Fatah or any other muslim group or state.
They haven't heard of taqqiya, they have no idea what hudna means, they have no idea what Mo really wants his followers to do to the Jooos - even now, after 1400 years.

They are too stupid to be let out of their bedrooms unsupervised ...

211 just another four-letter word  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:52:12pm

re: #103 taxfreekiller

The AP, CBS, ABC, NBC, PBS, The New York Times, the L.A. Times, the New Republic, the MSMBC Overbite, on and on, they all know Lt. Kerry is a liar and a fraud, they can read, they can repeat the research, they did see the facts, they know they lied about all of it,
yet, still.

They deny the facts, in the face of the truth they know themselves.Now they claim they know another thing, but,
do they produce one fact, one real rebuttal, one real Purple Heart,
one true thing he said to the Senate Committee, no, why.

The level and depth of lies they tell themselves is so deep and so
mind robbing they can see no truth at all, blind to any and all truth,
and it is not just how it happen, they willed it to happen, they lust
for the lies to live, the lies are their lives, without the lies all is dead to them.

so say tfk

So say we all.

JAFLW

212 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:52:27pm
213 formercorpsman  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:52:45pm

re: #195 Daisy

That would Barney Frank's apartment.

214 nikis-knight  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:53:06pm

re: #150 really grumpy big dog johnson

A nazi dictator is anything but a left winger, although the line is getting more obscure all the time. It's almost like when you fall off the left fringe of the left, you turn into a radical right wing totalitarian. The moonbats of both extremes have much in common.

Please proide a single major difference in ideology.

215 coquimbojoe  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:53:40pm

re: #150 really grumpy big dog johnson

A nazi dictator is anything but a left winger, although the line is getting more obscure all the time. It's almost like when you fall off the left fringe of the left, you turn into a radical right wing totalitarian. The moonbats of both extremes have much in common.

Take away the Nazis wicked bloodlust and racism, and you have a party of the left. You do not come up with conservatism. Their economic ideas as well as social are very much akin to todays left, in any country.

216 jcm  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:54:00pm

re: #203 justiceforall

I was actually asking if Jews lived there before the Zionist settlement because I didn't know, so as to better understand another poster's question he/she wished to pose to Mr. Ramsey.

The occupants of the British Mandate where more than willing to sell the land.

By May 1948 Jews acquired approximately two million of Palestine's 26 million dunams. In terms of Palestine's total land area under the Mandate, this was a small percentage. But these two million purchased dunams were among the most cultivable. They were neither in the hill regions of the West Bank/Judea-Samaria regions nor south of Beersheba. Jewish land acquisition focused on the valley and coastal regions of Palestine from 1920 through 1936. Before and after these years land was purchased also in the Galilee and later in the southern portions of Palestine, between Beersheba and Gaza. At the end of the Mandate Egypt controlled the Gaza Strip (320,000 dunams) and the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan annexed the West Bank/Judea-Samaria (6 million dunams).
217 looking closely  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:54:14pm
When the British let Hitler have a slice of Czechoslovakia, they were following their historical wisdom: avoid war. War produces results far more horrible than you expected. War is a bad investment. It is not glorious. Don’t give anyone an excuse to start one.


Funny, I didn't realize that British history was devoid of wars.

And this guy has it topsy turvy.

England didn't start the war, Hitler did. Nothing England could have done would have prevented *A* war.

But by not engaging in it earlier, England ensured that the end result was far bloodier and destructive than had it gotten involved sooner.

There were many opportunities to stop Hitler before he started the second World War. . .all squandered by peaceniks like the one who wrote this article.

218 Last Man  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:54:35pm

...and after Germans were a united they needed purified living space so filthy Slavs were slaughtered and displaced while vermin Jews were exterminated. Now leave Obama(pbuh) alone.

219 HelloDare  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:55:05pm

For a picture and bio of the nitwit go here.

220 really grumpy big dog johnson  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:55:20pm

re: #195 Daisy

"But it would have to be two two people of your same sex. Otherwise, it would be polygamy."

What if 6 or 7 gay people wanted to join matrimonial forces .. wouldn't that also constitute polygamy?

It's polygamy whenever more than two people are married, I happen to think it really goes beyond that, but that's just me. California's Supreme Court giving same sex marriage the green light stretches the boundaries of the definition of marriage in ways that will eventually result in sanctioned marriages with multiple partners, regardless of gender. They are kidding themselves if they think otherwise. They are redefining what is not redefinable.

In short, my previous reply was facetious, but also to illuminate the problem of sanctioning a definition of marriage that has never existed before.

221 solomonpanting  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:55:33pm

re: #209 taxfreekiller

wow, Mandy, if you put a stash on this guys lip, you got old Adolf H. himself

Or this guy.

222 formercorpsman  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:55:38pm

re: #213 formercorpsman

That would "be"

223 sparrowlake  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:55:44pm

re: #143 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Ah, but they were still speaking a language which had Latin as a basis when they discovered it, so its ours.

Sorry to disappoint you but Manhattan rightfully belongs to the Jews. If Moses hadn't made that one wrong turn coming out of Egypt he would've turned west, parted the Atlantic, and walked right up onto the Island. Surely you're not going to hold one little wrong turn against us, are you?

224 Daisy  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:56:03pm

re: #135 justiceforall

That's odd. Hitler said a lot of nasty things about leftists, and had a tendency to kill them.

Hitler's totalitarian goals were employed through a Socialist government sponsored (religion, really) that dictated and enforced every single aspect of social life - this indeed defines a leftist endeavor. The fact that he opposed a competing leftist endeavor (Communism) really ought not confuse the issue.

225 looking closely  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:56:20pm

re: #206 coquimbojoe

Yes, but he was a socialist. Big centralized government, control the economy, fellow traveller with Mussolini. He didn't like the competition from the communists. Come on read the history.


Of course Hitler was a socialist/leftist.

The Nazis weren't the "National Socialist German Worker's Party" for nothing.

226 yma o hyd  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:56:29pm

re: #196 infidel Alan

Ramsey misses the real problem in 1938: the French and British failed to recognize Hitler as a murderous psychopath who could not be trusted to honor any agreement or treaty. Our Democrats have a similar problem recognizing the jihadists for what they are.

Ahem - they should have known that since 1936, when Hitler invaded the Rhineland which was still under French occupation, after WWI.
The French did nothing and moved out - the League of Nations sighed - and Hitler knew he had the big European powers on the run.

227 jcm  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:56:34pm

re: #214 nikis-knight

re: #150 really grumpy big dog johnson

A nazi dictator is anything but a left winger, although the line is getting more obscure all the time. It's almost like when you fall off the left fringe of the left, you turn into a radical right wing totalitarian. The moonbats of both extremes have much in common.

Please proide a single major difference in ideology.

Nazi -- National Socialist.
Soviet -- International Socialist.

228 justiceforall  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:56:52pm

re: #206 coquimbojoe

Mussolini quotes from [Link: thinkexist.com...]

“Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power”

“Socialism is a fraud, a comedy, a phantom, a blackmail.”

229 Honorary Yooper  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:56:55pm

I just came back to LGF after doing some work. All I have to say is this:

Wow is right. This Bruce Ramsey would be more at home on GoV or the BJ. The comparison he made is so strange it..oh hell, what can I say other than wow?

230 Cygnus  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:56:57pm

re: #204 sparrowlake

I once had an elderly Austrian neighbour who was "forced" to join the Hitler youth. He told me that Hitler was actually very good for "the people" even though he was terrible to the Jews. He fondly recalled that Hitler greatly improved the train service.

Oh yes, the 'train service' to Auschwitz was very punctual. And all they needed was a one-way ticket.
///

231 ronaldusmagnus  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:57:16pm

Winston Churchill was roundly criticized for his constant railing against appeasement. He was correct, of course.

Bush is in good company when he speaks in this manner.

232 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:57:18pm
233 nikis-knight  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:57:25pm

re: #190 bulwrk

That's odd. Hitler said a lot of nasty things about leftists, and had a tendency to kill them.


Hitler was a leftest it was the communist that he hated.

Because they were competition. And because he didn't want foreign (Russian) control. Not because they differed on policy.
Fascism= everything for the state
communism = everything for the class
Nazism = everything for the race

methods of extracted "everything" remarkably similar.

234 yenta-fada  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:57:27pm

re: #170 JHW

The guys holding that "Liberty" conference are libertarians. You know, like RON PAUL!

235 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:57:28pm

re: #204 sparrowlake

I once had an elderly Austrian neighbour who was "forced" to join the Hitler youth. He told me that Hitler was actually very good for "the people" even though he was terrible to the Jews. He fondly recalled that Hitler greatly improved the train service.

Yes, he made sure those running to Auschwitz, Birkenau, etc. ran on time.

236 Dad O' Blondes  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:57:57pm

re: #53 Ojoe

As I recall nazi thugs did a lot of murder in Austria before it was annexed ...

This editor must be one of those many people who never watched "The Sound Of Music". The story of the Anschluss is told in this movie; it's a core piece of the plot.

For them, beyond cheesy, hopelessly outdated and naive. Silly and not real.

I sat with the "blondes" and watched this movie recently -- after not seeing it for many years. I was reminded what a remarkable filmic achievement this actually was.

237 coquimbojoe  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:58:30pm

re: #224 Daisy

re: #225 looking closely

Both exactly right. Thanks for the back up.

238 Daisy  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:58:53pm

re: #220 really grumpy big dog johnson

I'm with you.

239 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:59:34pm
240 Honorary Yooper  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:59:43pm

re: #233 nikis-knight

Because they were competition. And because he didn't want foreign (Russian) control. Not because they differed on policy.
Fascism= everything for the state
communism = everything for the class
Nazism = everything for the race

methods of extracted "everything" remarkably similar.

You forgot this one:

Islam = everything for the ummah

241 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:59:45pm
242 brent  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:59:50pm

I was going to write a response to that piece of crap, but I thought it would be wasted in that forum... Here's as far as I got...


Without going into whether or not the Palestinians are victims, terrorists. or somewhere in between, this is an amazing look at history thru a looking glass.

It's one thing to watch Hitler's plans unfold and hope that he was not a monster, but it's something entirely different to look at what he did as reasonable with the knowledge that we should have now.

Ignore the fact that every concession brought a new demand, look at what he was doing during this time. He was building a war machine, with every resource he could muster. He was convincing Germany that Europe was weak. Every concession was just land that didn't cost soldiers and equipment, and every day he didn't fight was another day his factories were turning out tanks, planes, ships unmolested. Weapons banned by the terms of Germany's surrender after WW-I.

Any of this sound familiar? It's applicable to Israel's situation given last year's warm-up war with - you decide who was really fighting them. It's applicable to what's going on in Iran. Talking to Iran, offering them carrots without any real stick - that's all centrifuge building time, missile and radar shopping time. It's convincing your people that they're God's chosen ones, fighting an inferior people time.

Bush said his comment was about Carter, but it could have been said about ElBaradei, the UN, himself (at least after the last knee capping intelligence report).

If you don't think war engines are being put in place now, fine. Just don't look at a scorched country 50 years after a war and say it was the act of a reasonable man. Don't look back at a country that openly pursued nuclear weapons for 10 years, openly called for the destruction of a country; don't you dare call that reasonable. The real question should then be how did we ignore all the signs; how could we willingly be so blind?

Something like that...

243 JHW  Fri, May 16, 2008 1:59:56pm

re: #234 yenta-fada

Yep, I think he's a Paul-bot, check out some of his other writings on just a quick Google, particularly his book reviews.

244 kindadifferent  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:00:21pm

The Left sure likes dictators! Sieg Heil, Obama! Ich habe Angst vor der Zunkunft! Unglaubliches Sheisse! Any left-wing nut (there are lots here in Canada) I meet that says they're gonna vote for Obama is going to get an earful and a smack on the head if they're Jewish.

245 Widow'smight  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:00:38pm

re: #223 sparrowlake

Yeah, but where would have they wandered for 40 years, there's no desert there. Maybe the Ear-o-corn indians would have given them the Manna they needed.

246 just another four-letter word  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:00:51pm

re: #177 jcm

At least I have fun while on the wet side. My truck still has Bush stickers, I wear my USS Ronald Reagan hat.

I do battle with the moonbats at work. They don't try much any more, I fact 'em right out of arguments.

Keep up the good fight, my friend!

JAFLW

247 laneseymour  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:01:02pm

Fascinating!
I just finished the second volume of William Manchester's magnificent biography of Winston Churchill, "The Last Lion" just two weeks ago. It covers the period of Churchill's political "exile" from 1932 to his ascendancy to Prime Minister at Chamberlain's resignation in 1940. I kept thinking how amazingly similar the British anti-war sentiments were to our own today and what scorn was heaped on Churchill for consistently being the lone voice of warning about the dangers of appeasement and lack of preparation. It is a remarkably informative read for anyone who is tempted by the "reasonableness" of smooth talkers like Ramsey. BTW, Ramsey strikingly ill informed of Hitler's true intentions--exactly as the British press was throughout the 30's. Ramsey (70 years later!) actually believes Nazi propaganda from the past! Churchill had read Mein Kampf and saw early on that the agenda Hitler laid out in his manifesto was what he was actually following--in spite of his propaganda. But the propaganda and the understandable British (and French) revulsion to war, lulled them into believing what they wanted to hear. Ramsey misses a far greater point in that strong, clear response to Hitler's early aggressions could have prevented the truly calamitous war which was required to regain freedoms that had been sacrificed on the alter of appeasement. World War II, from Churchill's unique perspective, was "the preventable war".
"War is horrible," Churchill said in an interview in the New Statesman, but slavery is worse, and you may be sure the British people would rather go down fighting than live in servitude."
Sixteen months after that interview, Hitler invaded the low countries and France, Chamberlain resigned in humiliation and the grim fight for liberty was finally engaged.

248 tommygum  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:01:13pm

re: #44 Cygnus

And the MG42.

249 Peter Verkooijen  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:01:22pm

This editorial also shows that American "progressives" have no respect for basic classic liberal democratic principles, in this case the sovereignty of states. There was nothing reasonable about trying to "bring all German-speaking areas of Europe under German authority". That choice should have been up to the sovereign states in question.

But the current "left", like their fascist cousins, despises national borders and love race-based power blocks.

250 mikalm  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:01:43pm

re: #223 sparrowlake

What's the old joke among Israelis? "I blame our troubles on Moses. If he'd turned right instead of left, we would have gotten the oil!"

251 coquimbojoe  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:02:21pm

re: #228 justiceforall

Mussolini quotes from [Link: thinkexist.com...]

“Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power”

“Socialism is a fraud, a comedy, a phantom, a blackmail.”

Yes, the government taking over business and directing them, hmm that sounds verrry conservative. Hitler, Mussolini, the soviets all swam at the left end of the pool. Just because they didn't like each other didn't make them of the right. As with most leftists, they though their brand of ideology was the best (and worth killing those who didn't adhere to their brand of foolishness). Go check out the Democrat Woodrow Wilson to learn about the predecessors of leftist fascism in the last century.

252 Dianna  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:02:25pm

re: #158 mikalm

If you like comics, yes.

253 JHW  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:02:56pm

re: #243 JHW

And also note that outfit he's affiliated with has some of the high mucky-mucks from the Discovery Institute in its ranks.

254 offendi  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:03:21pm

They obviously don't teach history in journalism school.

255 kindadifferent  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:03:39pm

re: #235 Kosh's Shadow

I met a bunch of Austrians who sincerely believe the World Jewish Congress controls the world. They were so f-kin mad the American Jews made a big deal that their Chancellor in 1988 (I forget his name) was a SS Nazi.

256 justiceforall  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:03:54pm

re: #244 kindadifferent

The Left sure likes dictators! Sieg Heil, Obama! Ich habe Angst vor der Zunkunft! Unglaubliches Sheisse! Any left-wing nut (there are lots here in Canada) I meet that says they're gonna vote for Obama is going to get an earful and a smack on the head if they're Jewish.

And "the right" has never liked dicators?

257 Catttt  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:03:54pm

From the article:

The step that must be taken now is for the two sides to talk, so that they can make a deal that both will accept...

Wow, why didn't anyone try that with Hitler? Oh, wait...

and that each side will enforce against its radical elements.

That's like the story of the scientist who includes "and then a miracle occurs" as one of the steps in his formula. It needs work.

258 J'accuzzi  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:05:42pm

Poor old Chamberlain didn't have anything much at the time to slow down Hitler with anyway thanks to a previous prime minister Stanley Baldwin (sort of the 1930's version of President Carter) who had starved the armed forces. The British crash rearmament program was in place and gathering speed but presented no immediate threat to Nazi Germany. The argument that Hitler would have reclaimed the "lost" territories from their new owners and then sat in his chair by the fire and done nothing else if everyone had just been a little "nicer" when dealing with him is bizarre.

259 galloping granny  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:05:43pm

re: #236 Dad O' Blondes

This editor must be one of those many people who never watched "The Sound Of Music". The story of the Anschluss is told in this movie; it's a core piece of the plot.

For them, beyond cheesy, hopelessly outdated and naive. Silly and not real.

I sat with the "blondes" and watched this movie recently -- after not seeing it for many years. I was reminded what a remarkable filmic achievement this actually was.

You should read Maria Von Trapp's book that the Sound of Music was based on. She goes into far more detail.

260 nikis-knight  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:05:45pm

re: #227 jcm

Nazi -- National Socialist.
Soviet -- International Socialist.

very well, that is a difernece (and thanks for ignoring my typo).
But if your poltics stretch all the way from international socialists on the far left, and national socialists on the far right, I'd argue you have less an axis and more a point.

261 Maine's Michael  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:06:24pm

Obama:

"They're

(Bush Admin

) going to have to explain why Hamas now controls Gaza, Hamas that was strengthened because the United States insisted that we should have democratic elections in the Palestinian Authority."

He shoots, he scores!

262 mikalm  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:06:39pm

re: #252 Dianna

I think you're confusing it with that fanboy place on University. DC has SF, Fantasy, Horror, Mystery/Suspense, True Crime, and Paranormal stuff.

263 Dianna  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:07:04pm

re: #192 Squirrelguy

Depends on where in LA you are.

264 N. O'Brain  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:07:30pm

Jonah Goldberg was right.

265 Albigensian  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:08:41pm

His argument seems to boil down to, "Irredentism is not unreasonable."

(irridentist: n. One who advocates the recovery of territory culturally or historically related to one's nation but now subject to a foreign government.)

The essential problem with it is, once it starts it can never stop-- after all, there is no people on earth that can reasonably claim to have inhabited the same piece of ground from the very beginning of time. The plain reality is, every piece of ground occupied today was at one time occupied by someone else.

In the USA, the most prominent irredentist claim appears to be that the Southwest is 'Aztlan,' and rightly belongs to Mexico.

IMHO, it takes a deep ignorance of history to imagine that irredentism- Hitler's, or anyone else's- is a justifiable principle. It is, rather, a principle justifying agression forever and with no possible settlement, as it insists that national borders can never truly be settled.

266 sparrowlake  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:09:11pm

re: #239 buzzsawmonkey

Now you've got it.
Would you like to borrow my worry-beads?

267 coquimbojoe  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:09:35pm

re: #256 justiceforall

And "the right" has never liked dicators?

You have point, but on the other hand, we don't fetishize fools like Castro or Allende. Lee Kwan Yu, Pinochet, we liked 'em more or less. Idiots like Marcos at least kept the communists at bay. The difference is they left their countries in great shape (Well, Marcos screwed to pooch, but at least they're free...). Leftists have only made their countries worse, yet they are worshiped (Hey kids how about a Che birthday cake, nevermind the fact he personally over saw the kill of 17,000 people... Arafat was a good guy, his terrorism was necessary!).

268 Peter Verkooijen  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:10:08pm

re: #228 justiceforall

Mussolini quotes from [Link: thinkexist.com...]
“Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power”
“Socialism is a fraud, a comedy, a phantom, a blackmail.”

Mussolini literally was a socialist, he was editor in chief of the socialist party paper.

Fascism is post-socialism, it was a response to the failures of socialism.

After WWI the democratic socialists (social democrats) had been coopted by liberal democracy. The young Soviet Union was being torn apart by civil war.

Fascism was socialism without class struggle, socialism in national unity. That's what Mussolini is talking about in these quotes.

Corporatism was the official social doctrine of the Vatican in the 1920s and 30s. Labor and capital would work together in "corporations" modelled on medieval guilds.

The goal was still a centrally planned economy. It was still socialism. Hence the German version of the ideology called itself national socialism.

269 sparrowlake  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:10:56pm

re: #245 Widow'smight

Yeah, but where would have they wandered for 40 years, there's no desert there. Maybe the Ear-o-corn indians would have given them the Manna they needed.

Don't you mean their cousins the Shmohawks?

270 coquimbojoe  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:12:03pm

re: #260 nikis-knight

very well, that is a difernece (and thanks for ignoring my typo).
But if your poltics stretch all the way from international socialists on the far left, and national socialists on the far right, I'd argue you have less an axis and more a point.

There is no 'right in the national socialist of the NAZI party go read the platform of their party. To say they are on the right is slander. To put them in the ancestory of the modern day left is appropriate, like it or not. Again read some history. It was the international left (read Democrats here in the US) of the time that slobbered all over Mussolini and Hitler. The republicans of the time did NOT.

271 Pope Insouciance IV  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:12:04pm

This guy loves to watch "The Sound of Music", but turns it off after about 95 minutes.

272 sparrowlake  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:12:43pm

re: #250 mikalm

What's the old joke among Israelis? "I blame our troubles on Moses. If he'd turned right instead of left, we would have gotten the oil!"

Kinda makes ya wander. LOL.

273 DrCruel  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:12:47pm

To be fair, this isn't the first time the Left have championed Hitler. In fact, after the Polish Split, before Hitler turned on his Bolshevik allies, they were rather chummy - it was only after teh start of Operation Barbarossa that the Left became rabidly, almost pathologically anti-Hitler. Given that they simultaneously championed Stalin's human rights record, their change of heart certainly wasn't on moral ground.

Now that Hitler has gained a new popularity amongst Muslim fanatics, I suspect the Left is merely trying to win over their new friends. After all, Hitler was a self-described socialist.

274 Maine's Michael  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:14:05pm

re: #272 sparrowlake

His wife told him to go right.

He wouldn't listen.

"I know this is the right way. I don't have to ask anyone."

275 Ziggy  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:14:25pm
When the British let Hitler have a slice of Czechoslovakia, they were following their historical wisdom: avoid war.


I think he just made Bush's point. I would call that appeasement.

276 Dianna  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:15:47pm

re: #262 mikalm

I think I am wrong, then. I must be crossing it up.

277 sparrowlake  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:16:36pm

re: #274 Maine's Michael

LOLOL.
And who needs the map - put it away!

278 Dianna  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:16:42pm

re: #265 Albigensian

The Basques?

279 conservativeChick  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:17:08pm

Washington is full of moonbats, anarchist and Ron Paul supporters. I know because I sadly live in Ron Paul Capitol of the world and St.Pancake hometown Olympia Washington. Want to read a newspaper worse then the Seattle Times read the Olympian. Its full of anti-American and all conservatives are evil propaganda.

280 Brian Smaller  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:17:13pm

And thus it starts...

I am not a Yank. I am a Kiwi. When American's start defending Hitler's foreign policy I think we are screwed. Please Yanks, don't stuff this election up! For all our sakes.

281 Maine's Michael  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:17:15pm
Seattle Times Editor: 'Hitler's Demands Were Not Unreasonable'

Yeah. I heard he liked dogs as well.

And he was a vegetarian. How bad could he be?

Seriously, this is the slippery slope. If Hitler was reasonable here, he may have been reasonable elsewhere.

And before you know it, they being saying 'Hitler got a bum rap.'

Just like the Arab world does now.

282 solomonpanting  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:17:30pm

re: #274 Maine's Michael

His wife told him to go right.

He wouldn't listen.

"I know this is the right way. I don't have to ask anyone."

That's because there was no road map then.

283 Peter Verkooijen  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:17:33pm

re: #256 justiceforall

And "the right" has never liked dicators?

Define "right".

Real liberals, classic liberals, and real democrats (with a small d), have always been on the right side of history.

284 Daisy  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:18:49pm

re: #142 formercorpsman

You know, I have gone back and read this over 3 times.

It is absolutely amazing.

It is astounding.

What a fucking imbecile this prick is.

I agree - and congratulations on your commitment to bear witness to evil - 3 times! :)

Maybe you're aware that some of the most hardened criminals score off the charts high points in standardized 'self esteem' tests. I have the sense this jerk would also have off the charts scores. Not that these tests/scores have anything to do with reality, mind you .. they are a more reliable measure of smugness as it exists in the morally unfit.

285 Maine's Michael  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:18:55pm
And before you know it, they being saying 'Hitler got a bum rap.'

Uh, I wasn't trying out Ebonics. It was a typo.

286 jcm  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:18:55pm

re: #260 nikis-knight

very well, that is a difernece (and thanks for ignoring my typo).
But if your poltics stretch all the way from international socialists on the far left, and national socialists on the far right, I'd argue you have less an axis and more a point.

Point is they are both LEFT (Socialist) centralized control.
If you right on spectrum you get libertarian to anarchy, except a lot of the anarchists are really lefties also.

It's a canard floated by the left that Nazis are right. Read FJP's link and see how right the platform is.

re: #124 Fat Jolly Penguin

Nazi Party Platform

Then read the Communist Manifesto.

Both are State centric, state centrism is leftist ideology.

287 Widow'smight  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:19:06pm

re: #269 sparrowlake

LOL, I must go get mini-mom. Have yourself a wonderful weekend, hope the suns shines bright on your ole Kentucky home (or wherever you live).

God Bless you and yours like he has mine.

288 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:19:32pm
289 nikis-knight  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:21:03pm

re: #267 coquimbojoe

You have point, but on the other hand, we don't fetishize fools like Castro or Allende. Lee Kwan Yu, Pinochet, we liked 'em more or less. Idiots like Marcos at least kept the communists at bay. The difference is they left their countries in great shape (Well, Marcos screwed to pooch, but at least they're free...). Leftists have only made their countries worse, yet they are worshiped (Hey kids how about a Che birthday cake, nevermind the fact he personally over saw the kill of 17,000 people... Arafat was a good guy, his terrorism was necessary!).

Leftist dictators are totalitarian, and as you point out, often adored by leftists. (Find a college professor who doesn't like Castro or Chavez) Totalitarian means they don't just control the government, but as much of the citizens lives as possible.
Rightist dictators would be Authoritarian, usually only tolerated at best by conservatives as a lesser of two evils. They control the government, without checks, but generally not every aspect of society. Good? No, nor loved by conservatives as I said, but not in the same class as the nazis, communists, islamists, etc.

In current American political terms, calling a cleric conservative would be to say he was in favor of limited role of the theocracy in citizens lives and in favor of individual liberty, of course, the word means something different from the islamist perspective, but don't expect the media to let on.

290 Daisy  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:21:12pm

"When the British let Hitler have a slice of Czechoslovakia, they were following their historical wisdom: avoid war."

Hmmm. Exactly what British history would that be?

291 J.S.  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:21:58pm

re: #203 justiceforall

You have to watch out when you used "loaded" terms such as "Zionist." There was a "Zionist" movement (it was religious movement) prior to Herzl. (It's called the First Aliyah -- two waves, one in 1882, another in 1890-91). This migration to Israel (called "Palestine") was due primarily to the pogroms occurring in Czarist Russia...(they came as a consequence of the persecution in Russia, Romania, and Poland.) Jews (since the exile from Jerusalem in 70 CE) have always dreamt of returning to "the Promised Land."

Herzl then wrote about a secular/political Zionism ("The Jewish State" published in 1896). This marked the first time that efforts were being made at the political level to establish a Jewish state. (then you get the Balfour Declaration, issued in 1917 -- it was indicating that Britain supported the creation of a Jewish national homeland in "Palestine.") by 1914, the Jewish presence had grown to 85,000. It was a huge influx of skilled people -- they cleared out the malarial swamps, established hospitals and educational institutions. As a consequence, it became attractive to Arab immigrants. (While Arab immigration continued unabated, the British in a "White Paper" by 1939 curtailed or capped Jewish immigration to "Palestine," reversing previous policies.) The whole issue of "who was there first" is (as far as I'm concerned) a hugely contentious point. And pretty simplistic... Perhaps the best compromise is to acknowledge that Jews (starting with the religion of Judaism) have seen Israel as a "promised land" -- and they are "indigenous." But, going back to the Ottoman Turk times or perhaps earlier, there has also been an Arab presence. But they've never looked to Israel as a "promised land" or as a "home land" to which they should migrate...

292 Robert Schwartz  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:23:03pm

And you thought Jonah Goldberg was kidding about Liberal Fascism.

293 nikis-knight  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:23:33pm

re: #270 coquimbojoe

very well, that is a diference (and thanks for ignoring my typo).
But if your politics stretch all the way from international socialists on the far left, and national socialists on the far right, I'd argue you have less an axis and more a point.


There is no 'right in the national socialist of the NAZI party go read the platform of their party. To say they are on the right is slander. To put them in the ancestory of the modern day left is appropriate, like it or not. Again read some history. It was the international left (read Democrats here in the US) of the time that slobbered all over Mussolini and Hitler. The republicans of the time did NOT.

You are replying to me for support? I don't disagree, if you thought I did, reread it, what I meant was that if you call socialism left and fascism right, you're calling the same thing by two different names. Maybe I tried to be too glib.

294 nikis-knight  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:24:45pm

re: #286 jcm

We're talking past each other, I think. Sorry for explaining poorly. See my #293.

295 coquimbojoe  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:25:11pm

re: #293 nikis-knight

You are replying to me for support? I don't disagree, if you thought I did, reread it, what I meant was that if you call socialism left and fascism right, you're calling the same thing by two different names. Maybe I tried to be too glib.

I take umbrage with the Nazis being put in the far right column, they are anything but on the 'right'.

296 InklingBooks  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:25:31pm

Here's the comment I tried to make on the Seattle Times, which must have the most dreadfully incompetent captucha checking system on the planet.

***

Bruce needs to study a bit more history. There was a reason the mostly German-speaking Sudetenland was given to the Czechs after WWI. With it, their country was defensible and as a result the Czechs had a line of fortifications to do just that. Examining them after the occupation, Germany's own generals expressed doubt whether they would have be able to win if the Czechs been allowed to fight. Without those fortifications, the rest of the country was easily overrun. Everyone but the apparently clueless Chamberlain knew that..

Even more strangely, Mr. Ramsey seems to assume that Nazi Germany had a "just claim" to any German-speaking territory it wanted, simply because the more loud-mouthed and violent Germans in a region liked Hitler. Again his history is flawed. Before the Nazi occupations, Austrians regularly elected governments that did not want a union with Germany. Going further, could Nazi Germany also have demanded a large slice of Switzerland? Could it have also demanded Alsace-Lorraine again? That was part of the territory taken away after WWI. Or is Mr. Ramsey as ignorant of linguistic geography as Obama, who recently seemed to claim that the Afgans spoke Arabic.

And last but not least, he seems indifferent to just what the German occupation of these regions meant, particularly to the Jewish population of Austria. Apparently his "without bloodshed" didn't include the Jews, who were soon being humiliated, beaten and killed. I suspect he's equally indifferent to Jews being killed today by Arab terrorists. If I were that morally shallow, I'd shut up and not reveal it.

Like Obama, Bruce Ramsay knows little about history and like Obama he would have us repeating the costly mistakes of the past. Chamberlain and Obama have a lot in common, both are self-serving, both lack character, and both are distressingly ignorant of international politics. Finally, both think they can talk dictators into being nice. Not so.

--Michael W. Perry, editor of Chesterton on War: Battling the Ideas and Movements that Led to Nazism and World War II.

297 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:27:03pm
298 JHW  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:27:31pm

It's a measure of how Moonbat Seattle is that an "alternative newspaper" refers to him this way

For once, I agree with the Seattle Times’s crusty conservative. In today’s column, Bruce Ramsey ...


The Stranger

299 justiceforall  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:29:14pm

re: #283 Peter Verkooijen

Your retort proves my point. It is useless to say "the right" as it is to say "the left."

Different left groups oppose each other, just like different right groups do.

300 nikis-knight  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:30:32pm

re: #295 coquimbojoe

I take umbrage with the Nazis being put in the far right column, they are anything but on the 'right'.

Exactly. Calling it right is a ruse and a slander. I was trying to be too clever, I guess.
/I lose at this thread. on to the next!

301 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:31:38pm

re: #255 kindadifferent

I met a bunch of Austrians who sincerely believe the World Jewish Congress controls the world. They were so f-kin mad the American Jews made a big deal that their Chancellor in 1988 (I forget his name) was a SS Nazi.

Kurt Waldheim.

Here is a good Lou Reed song from a few elections ago; currently relevant

302 Peter Verkooijen  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:31:56pm

re: #286 jcm

Then read the Communist Manifesto.

Both are State centric, state centrism is leftist ideology.

The difference between left and right originally was about for or against the French Revolution (and the 1848 revolutions).

Classic pro-capitalist liberalism was leftwing, because it was against the monarchy and clergy and pro-democratic. Socialism was leftwing as well.

Monarchists, Christian groups, conservatives were rightwing, because they were "anti-revolutionary".

Fascists and national-socialists DID call themselves rightwing, because they harked back to romanticized medieval or Roman times.

But they did reject liberal democracy and capitalism and embraced the socialist centrally planned economy.

303 bill in tx  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:32:02pm

Holy Cow. Reading that headline I blinked several times as if my eyes were deceiving me. This wasn't the Hitler Dick Shawn portrayed in "The Producers." He wasn't just a nice guy, and everyone with half a brain knew it. He was re-arming in violation of the Treaty of Versailles. He was training an air force in the Soviet Union. I really enjoyed "Duel of Eagles" ([Link: www.amazon.com...] for a good analysis of European air power between the wars. Churchill knew what was up. If it wasn't for him Britain would've been toast. I read this almost every day:

“If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a small chance of survival. There may even be a worse case: you may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.”
- Winston Churchill

304 Occam's Beard  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:34:29pm
Don’t give anyone an excuse to start one.

What excuse did the Poles give either the Germans or the Soviets?

305 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:36:18pm

re: #123 galloping granny

you are right what I meant to say Austria had never been part of Germany

306 ballantrae  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:36:23pm

re: #129 galloping granny

We should invade France and Italy. The girls are hotter, the weather is cooler, the food is good, and the locals won't hassle us.

-ron

307 quickjustice  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:37:05pm

re: #121 sparrowlake

A belated LOL to you!

308 sparrowlake  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:49:15pm

re: #288 buzzsawmonkey

I thought we got past the verbal hairsplitting over normal-abnormal, and we agreed that we both support the law but with serious reservations about the potential for future disruption of other important societal structures including traditional heterosexual marriage.
But if you insist that we disagree I will take your word for it.
Gut Shabbes.

309 jcm  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:50:19pm

re: #294 nikis-knight

We're talking past each other, I think. Sorry for explaining poorly. See my #293.

I thought we might be...
I get tired of the right being labeled Nazi, and the Nazi albatross being hung around the necks of conservatives. Too often I find folks accepting that Nazi is right and then trying to argue from that false ground.

I think you description as Authoritarian, works better.


re: #302 Peter Verkooijen


The definitions gotten muddied, relabel, and used as clubs for so long it's hard to keep it all straight.

I consider my self a "classic liberal" which today is "conservative / libertarian."

310 stevieray  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:51:29pm

I gotta quit work... all the wacky stories get threads during the day!

I wonder if the Obama campaign is wincing right now... placing pleading phone calls to the Seattle Times, begging, "Please, don't help us anymore!"

Nah. Probably not. The folks running Obama's campaign probably think this is great. They are proving themselves profoundly out of touch with everyday Americans. They seem to have gone from college campii directly to campaign headquarters... do not pass go, do not collect wisdom or common sense.

Psst! Its not a good idea to let anyone compare you to Hitler's Germany, even if they are trying to help.

311 sparrowlake  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:54:53pm

re: #295 coquimbojoe

I take umbrage with the Nazis being put in the far right column, they are anything but on the 'right'.

I had a professor who resolved that issue by teaching us that the political spectrum was actually on the circumference of a circle, so that the extreme left and the extreme right actually came together.

312 nikis-knight  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:56:00pm

re: #309 jcm

I think you description as Authoritarian, works better.

I got it from a Nat. Review piece on (or maybe by) Jeanne Kirkpatrick.

(I miss my subscription...)

313 nikis-knight  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:58:40pm

re: #311 sparrowlake

I had a professor who resolved that issue by teaching us that the political spectrum was actually on the circumference of a circle, so that the extreme left and the extreme right actually came together.

Yes, but the reason people take issue with that is that there is no amount of limited government that gets to you revolution and gulogs/concentration camps. However, if you realize that Nazism and communism are just subtypes of communism, with classical liberalism opposing them, it makes much more sense. (and keep in mind there are plenty of people/movements that are simply inconsistent.)

314 threeCents  Fri, May 16, 2008 2:59:04pm

Under this illogic, I assume that he also thinks it was fine for Iraq to "annex" Kuwait during the first Gulf War.

315 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, May 16, 2008 3:00:01pm
316 nikis-knight  Fri, May 16, 2008 3:00:02pm

re: #313 nikis-knight

However, if you realize that Nazism and communism are just subtypes of communismfascism, with classical liberalism opposing them, it makes much more sense.
I wish we had an edit function :(

317 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, May 16, 2008 3:01:03pm
318 jcm  Fri, May 16, 2008 3:03:40pm

re: #312 nikis-knight

I got it from a Nat. Review piece on (or maybe by) Jeanne Kirkpatrick.

(I miss my subscription...)

Kirkpatrick '08
*sigh*

319 _Felix  Fri, May 16, 2008 3:11:33pm

The quoted part of the editorial claims that by the standards of the time Hitler had a just claim to the territory he invaded. That might be true, by the standards of the time. That is to say, by the standards of not knowing any better. Likewise, Chamberlain didn't know any better than to try appeasement.

It's the next part, about the German invasion of non-German-speaking territory, that's really baffling:

In September 1939, when Germany started the war, it had no just claim to any more territory. But the Palestinians who fight Israel do have a just claim to territory.

Earlier we read "...you do not change national borders for these sorts of reasons. But in 1938 it was different." Hence a just claim by those standards.

Now suddenly "1938 was different" is forgotten and the editorial is applying the standards of 70 years ago to today. (This even immediately follows after the words "1939 is nothing like today.")

The general implication seems to be that naivety not only excuses past mistakes and attitudes, but means they were in fact correct and should be repeated.

320 maninthemiddle  Fri, May 16, 2008 3:11:34pm

Dear Mr. Mathews,
Moronic, delusional, and feckless is not a good way to go through life, son.

If you had even a modicum of historical knowledge, you would understand that the German takeover of Austria was bloodless in the way an armed robber with a gun to a victims head receives his spoils.

In February of 1938, Hitler met with Austrian Chancellor Schuschnigg. Hitler ordered the Prime Minister to allow the Nazis into the government or he would invade.

In early March, because the Austrians were obviously dragging their feet and resisting - implementing Hitler's demands at a virtual snails pace - Hitler ordered that all governmental powers be handed over to the Austrian Nazis or an invasion would commence.

Chancellor Schuschnigg desperately sought help from France and Britain. These bastions of peace and hope did not want to further incite Hitler, so chose to appease him by abiding by his demands not to interfere with an internal Austrian matter.

Unable to justify succumbing to Hitler, and without support for a free Austria from France and Britain, Schuschnigg resigned.

Hitler demanded that his Nazi lackey, Artur Seyss-Inquart, be sworn in as Chancellor. The plan was that Seyss-Inquart would immediately declare a state of emergency due to non-existent riots, and ask for German troops.

Austrian President Wilhelm Miklas refused to appoint a Nazi government. Without a Nazi government, no request for German troops was forthcoming.

What is a psychopathic despot to do? Well, in Hitler's case he ordered an invasion.

After the invasion order was given and troops were already entering Austria, Hitler had a telegram forged - ostensibly from the Austrian government asking for German troops.

To Austria's shame, thousands cheered as the German troops rushed across Austria. There was ample support for the Nazis that spread beyond the mere 13% that actually considered themselves part of a greater German nation.

Austria was quickly under German control, and all regular party Austrian government members were rounded up and arrested.

That violent round ups of Jews and "others" occurred is common knowledge.

From Evan Burr Bukey in "Hitler's Austria":
This horror was a prelude to what would occur in Vienna and in Austria's provincial cities during the Krystallnacht. Statistics for November 9-10, a nightmare period not easily matched in previous European history, include 267 synagogues destroyed, 7500 businesses and homes devastated, 91 Jews murdered, and 26,000 Jews rounded up. True, "Outside [Vienna] so little Jewish property remained to pillage or expropriate that the pogrom was limited by the success of previous purges,"(p. 144). No matter, "local Nazis raped and plundered, tortured and maimed, and in Innsbruck beat or stabbed to death four distinguished Jews,"(p. 144).

Austria did not have a large Jewish population, yet it is estimated that 65,000 Austrian Jews were killed.

20,000,000 people died due to Hitler - and this does not include military deaths.

Bloodless indeed.

321 Olderthandirt  Fri, May 16, 2008 3:22:54pm

Lord HaHa lived and moved the USA Left Coast? Who knew? Yep, this just proves what the Lefties have been saying all along, Winston was a warmonger intent on bullying that nice little Corporal! Well, good luck to the "Can't we all just get along" crowd. BTW: My fallout shelter only holds ripping roaring, red blooded Yankees of the Conservative kind!

322 wong fei hung  Fri, May 16, 2008 3:24:42pm

Dear Bruce:

You are a sick f*ck.

Don't ever have kids. Please. And if you do have kids, I hope they see what a loser you are and hate you endlessly.

Have a nice life, turdcorn.

-WFH

323 29Victor  Fri, May 16, 2008 3:25:34pm

So if the U.S. had annexed all of English speaking North America in 1938, this guy would have been cool with it?

324 Sloatsburgh  Fri, May 16, 2008 3:26:37pm

re: #179 Kosh's Shadow

The kind of Peace this schmuck and the Palis want for the Jews is a state of non-being.


Reagan: you can have peace, just surrender.

Too often people think that peace is the tantamount state and everything else must be offered in it's name.

325 chanticleer  Fri, May 16, 2008 3:27:37pm

I don't know how anyone can think this if they have any knowledge of history.

326 Yankee Division Son  Fri, May 16, 2008 3:28:13pm

This is the most distorted, ridiculous, insane, piece of crap not fit for the bottom of a birdcage, I've read in a long time.

You know, if it wasn't for the whole holocaust thingy, and the silly war, and the whole fascism stuff, Adolph Hitler wasn't such a bad guy.

So there you have it folks, there is nothing the lamestream media won't say or do to help thier guys (D) win elections. Period.

/now if you will excuse me, I have to go PUKE.

327 Polaris  Fri, May 16, 2008 3:31:05pm

I think we just found the rest of Obama's 57 states and then some! Ontario, British Columbia, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Quebec (wait, no, can't invade Quebec, not English)...

328 stevieray  Fri, May 16, 2008 3:32:25pm

re: #325 chanticleer

I don't know how anyone can think this if they have any knowledge of history.

I bet you could find this exact argument in a history book... a history book with the phrase "A marxist reinterpretation of..." in its subtitle.

329 iamduhman  Fri, May 16, 2008 3:32:29pm

What the U.S. wants is not unreasonable, so they all had better give us what we want, they don't want a reason for us to got to war, do they.
Heh,heh.

330 Cans  Fri, May 16, 2008 3:33:22pm

Using this logic it will not be long before Mexico has the right to annex the US, given that we are headed toward being a spanish speaking nation.

331 Saul Goode  Fri, May 16, 2008 3:54:10pm

I made a prediction about a year or so back that if a left-winger was compared to Hitler, that they would find a way to defend him.

I wasn't joking

332 D. Lapin  Fri, May 16, 2008 3:55:29pm

The good news is that he is being reamed in the comments. I read through them quickly and couldn't find a single positive word. There are at least a few sane folk in Seattle.

333 jemima  Fri, May 16, 2008 3:57:08pm

If Germany overrunning Austria was such a good thing, why did the Von Trapps leave?

334 Render  Fri, May 16, 2008 4:25:51pm

re: #122 justiceforall

Were there Jews living in what we now call the West Bank and Gaza before Zionists started settling in what was, I'm pretty sure, was British-controled Palestine? Seriously, do you know?

Yes, there were Jews living in both regions before the first groups of Zionists arrived in the 1880's.

No, it was not the British controlled Mandate at the time. It was part of the Ottoman Empire.

Seriously, you are as historically challenged as Bruce Ramsey, or worse as you both may very well be.

From the early 1880's until 1917 the Zionists BOUGHT the land they settled on.

Do you know where Hebron is? Do you know how many times it has been ethnically cleansed of its entire Jewish population?

Given your posting history here, you do not live up to your nic and you're too stupid to be commenting on things you very obviously know absolutely nothing about.

EDUCATE
YOURSELF,
R

335 average_guy  Fri, May 16, 2008 4:30:04pm

When the British let Hitler have a slice of Czechoslovakia, they were following their historical wisdom: avoid war. War produces results far more horrible than you expected. War is a bad investment. It is not glorious. Don’t give anyone an excuse to start one.

That's a policy that Neville Chamberlain had. Now Winston Churchill, on the other hand...

336 Render  Fri, May 16, 2008 4:40:04pm

A little something for Bruce Ramsey to think about...

The first nazi concentration camps were established in 1934, a year after Himmler became chief of the Bavarian police.

How unreasonable is that?

FUCK
WITS,
R

337 surrounded by moonbats  Fri, May 16, 2008 5:12:38pm

But he was just misunderstood and taken out of context...he's rewritten it.

Posted by Bruce Ramsey 4:19 PM, May 16, 2008

Good grief! What a reaction--and the more vitriolic reactions we have not printed. Most of the readers seem to have read just the one paragraph, out of context--so I have rewritten it and made it more difficult to misinterpret what I was trying to say.

338 martinleaf  Fri, May 16, 2008 5:22:22pm

Hitler admitted that if the allies would have challenged Hitler over the Sudetenland, Hitler would have backed off. Clemenza said the same thing to Michael Corleone.

339 Render  Fri, May 16, 2008 5:36:02pm

Just because I know damn good and well that my comment will never make it through moderation.

===

Ramsey,

You do understand that the first concentration camps for Jews were established in 1934?

Yes, that is unreasonable.

Yes, you are historically challenged.

Yes, your spin attempt has failed miserably.

R

340 rightymouse  Fri, May 16, 2008 6:15:00pm

All this says to me is that Ramsey hates that his beloved Obama may have been compared to Chamberlain - yet what does he do? Justify what Chamberlain did to get Obama off the hook.

I'm tellin' ya. These people are nuts. They really do not have a rational perspective of history.

341 Benschachar  Fri, May 16, 2008 6:20:28pm

So, anyone besides me think he's the reincarnation of Neville Chamberlain.

342 rightymouse  Fri, May 16, 2008 6:23:59pm

re: #341 Benschachar

So, anyone besides me think he's the reincarnation of Neville Chamberlain.

Worse.

343 strandedsf  Fri, May 16, 2008 6:33:07pm

Dear Dumbass:

Appeasing an evil bastard DOES give him a reason to start a war. It announces to him that you are a weak chump who will not defend yourself. He assumes that he will win the war easily. That's exactly what happened in WWII. Every time Hitler took a baby step toward the Final Solution, France and England appeased him, so he assumed they were cool with it.

Hitler didn't just want the Sudetenland and Austria. That was just the appetizer. He wanted the extermination of the Jews and world domination. He announced it to all and sundry, to anyone who would listen, before, during and after he annexed the Sudetenland and Austria. Churchill was listening. Chamberlain was not.

While Europe slept, Hitler built his strength to the point that it required the slaughter of 60 million people to stop him. That's why you have to nip evil in the bud, fool.

Ahmadinejad, too, is announcing his intentions. He is testing us. He is testing us, and Obama is failing the test.

344 rightymouse  Fri, May 16, 2008 6:41:01pm

re: #343 strandedsf

Every time Hitler took a baby step toward the Final Solution, France and England appeased him, so he assumed they were cool with it.

Or would be too chicken to do anything about it. He played them for the fools that they were.

Thank goodness for Churchill. The appeasers/nay-sayers of the time got their panties all wadded up about him too.

345 WayDownSouthInBama  Fri, May 16, 2008 6:47:23pm
War is a bad investment. It is not glorious. Don’t give anyone an excuse to start one.

I'm sure this idiot feels the same way about Al Qaeda and OBL as he does the Nazi's and Hitler. He surely thinks it's America's fault that terrorists attacked on 9/11.

346 kansas  Fri, May 16, 2008 6:55:03pm

re: #341 Benschachar

So, anyone besides me think he's the reincarnation of Neville Chamberlain.

Nobody who supports Obama even knows who the fuck Neville Chamberlain was nor do they give a flying fuck. Its just too damned hard to try to teach history every day to these morons. The only way they will learn is to experience for themselves. So welcome to Obamaland. Change...Yes we can.

347 jainphx  Fri, May 16, 2008 7:19:29pm

re: #187 arier_tzvi

Yes the German American Bunds. They held open meetings that attracted thousands. Herbert Hoover watched very closely.

348 jainphx  Fri, May 16, 2008 8:02:49pm

re: #347 jainphx

Of coarse I meant J, Edgar Hoover. I do have trouble remembering names now a days.

349 Wm T Sherman  Fri, May 16, 2008 8:07:46pm

The author's whiny, clueless "explanation:"

Posted by Bruce Ramsey

4:19 PM, May 16, 2008

Good grief! What a reaction--and the more vitriolic reactions we have not printed. Most of the readers seem to have read just the one paragraph, out of context--so I have rewritten it and made it more difficult to misinterpret what I was trying to say.

I am making an argument against using the story of the Munich Conference of 1938 and the idea of "appeasement" as a touchstone in making foreign policy decisions in the Middle East. I am making two claims about it. The second claim, which most of the respondents did not mention, is that the comparison is not relevant. That is, that the Middle East is so different from Europe in 1938 that the two should not be connected.

It was the other point that set off the fireworks. What I was trying to say was that given the facts at the time, and the history that the people had gone through, especially World War I, the demands made by Hitler at Munich were not outrageous on their face. And that is why Britain and France could agree to them. Immediately after Munich, Hitler broke his word and invaded Bohemia and Moravia, and that wasn't reasonable, and Britain and France couldn't deal with him any more.


Jesus Christ. How can he not be fired after this? Don't lose track of this story. Keep following it.

350 rorschach  Fri, May 16, 2008 8:11:08pm

Hitler was a sweetheart. Really. I have it on good authority. He was a peach of a guy. Yes, he was. Honest to Pete.

And was in fine mental health until the mean old Czechs and Poles provoked him.

351 yesandno  Fri, May 16, 2008 8:16:33pm

Proving without a shadow of a doubt that common sense isn't.

When is somebody just going to say wrong, wrong, wrong instead of trying to twist the lie into the truth, thus making the truth a lie in the eyes of the untruthful?

Just where the heck are we headed?

352 Jim C.  Fri, May 16, 2008 8:56:28pm

There's one hopeful side to this: ALL the comments I read condemned this idiot.

353 lostlakehiker  Fri, May 16, 2008 9:12:37pm

Hitler's demands were reasonable? I can beat this guy in any negotiation where I can hurt him even a little. I threaten him with that harm, and promise to spare him if only he'll give me a nickel.

When I get the nickel, I demand another. And another. Kipling had a poem about this. Once you give danegeld, the Dane never goes away.

Churchill explained it. You can fight, when victory would be all but assured, and the price modest. Or you can fight, when it's desperate. Or you will have to fight when it's hopeless.

354 commanderkai  Fri, May 16, 2008 11:06:24pm

Hey, did anybody notice that the original article has been edited?

355 _Felix  Sat, May 17, 2008 4:18:06am

re: #354 commanderkai

Hey, did anybody notice that the original article has been edited?

He actually did quite a good job of editing it, and now it makes sense. It's still wrong, but it's comprehensible. It's turned into just a straight negation of "to negotiate with terrorists and radicals ... is the false comfort of appeasement"

It now lacks any explanation of why he thinks this isn't so.

356 Marian - CZ  Sat, May 17, 2008 6:02:59am

Wow. Just incredible.
I suggest to the author of this incredible piece the following experiment:

1. Go to the streets of Prague.

2. Proclaim loudly your thoughts on reasonable demands of Hitler.

3. See how long you last.

I am always marvelled by the wilful blindness of the left against clear homicidal maniacs.

357 acacia  Sat, May 17, 2008 6:45:38am

If Hitler were at his tricks today, I wonder how Obama would be with a promise by Hitler that he wouldn't throw gays into the gas chamber any more - "just trust me." Hitler would also probably work out a deal on global warming - just give me all the oil since you won't need it any more now that you're going green - then we'll help you with that warming thing. Obama would like him as being a good pro-Palistinian trying to avenge the horrors of Jewish terror.

358 acacia  Sat, May 17, 2008 6:49:28am

In contrast to Hitler's "not unreasonable" demands, I am sure that Ramsay thinks it entirely unreasonable that we should insist that a country renounce terror and back off its position to "wipe out" a sovereign nation as a precondition to talks.

359 otcconan  Sat, May 17, 2008 7:36:48am
#187 arier_tzvi 5/16/08 1:47:29 pm reply quote report 3

many of the moonbat lefties back in the days prior to WWII (holocaust Shoah) were huge supporters of Germany and Nazism. Many German immigrants in the U.S. were proud to support the German Cause. All you have to do is look that up in History.

Not so fast, mein friend. My grandparents, and every relative in my family (incidentally, one of the largest families in Texas), opposed Germany in both wars. Germans in Texas were famous for their opposition to violence (look up the The Nueces Massacre for the full story).

In point of fact, there was serious talk about interning the Germans the same way the Japanese were. My father was not allowed to tell people he was German until about 10 years after the war. This was not because they were spies, but because they were afraid. But they were always very proud to be Americans.

Actually, let's rewrite your little post like THIS:

Many Japanese immigrants in the U.S. were proud to support the Japanese Cause. All you have to do is look that up in History.

...There. Now you sound just like Michelle Malkin.

I'm not disputing that there were some Germans who supported Naziism, because there was a large movement (Charles Lindbergh being a more notable individual)...but once we were in the war, that was ended very quickly.

360 jtisdel  Sat, May 17, 2008 11:24:58am

re: #258 J'accuzzi

The British definitely didn't have the standing army, but France did. And their 100 divisions were a concern - especially to Goring who was frantically building up the German armed forces with the Office of the Four Year Plan.

Now, the malaise of appeasement saturated the French high command as the events of 1940 showed.

Appeasement is always easier in that it allows you to "focus on what's really important" - at least until the wolf is in the door.

361 jtisdel  Sat, May 17, 2008 11:27:59am

re: #355 _Felix

He actually did quite a good job of editing it, and now it makes sense. It's still wrong, but it's comprehensible. It's turned into just a straight negation of "to negotiate with terrorists and radicals ... is the false comfort of appeasement"

It now lacks any explanation of why he thinks this isn't so.

But his point is still invalid. Apparently all he did was try to "remove the source of his discomfort". Hey, his re-write is an example of appeasement - and you notice that it didn't work in this case either. :-D

362 Jed  Sun, May 18, 2008 5:42:12am
Don’t give anyone an excuse to start one.

It weasn't an excuse, it was a great reason to start WW2, because Hitler felt that the rest of the world was too appeasing to fight back.

363 Shr_Nfr  Tue, May 20, 2008 6:36:16am

Hi to all you readers of the WSJ who was reasonable enough to link to this thread. Please take the time and effort to read your history books before you go vote this fall. It might be a revelation to you. Also read the history of "The Protocols of Zion" which is being presented as truth in many circles in the Middle East. A number of books have been written on the topic, but basically it is a bad crib on "The Dialogue in Hell between Machiavelli and Montesquieu" written by Joly in the mid 19th century. One could go on at length on the topic, but please take the time to turn off your television and visit your town library.


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