But a bible in urine is A OK?

Maybe he was tired of seeing his friends get riddled with bullets. By people who follow the directions in the Koran.

Don't suicide bombers usually carry a Koran on them when they blow themselves up?

Seems like that would cause more damage than a few bullet holes.

re: #1 pegcity

But a bible in urine is A OK?

Offending Christians is always okay. Happens everywhere nowadays. It's 'progressive' and 'hip' to look down on them.

Hard for the rest of the muslim community to get upset if reuters doesn't promote this story.

Hey give the guy some slack, he probably actually read the thing and got pissed when he did.

“I was feeling bitterness, but as long as they apologized we are OK with them. Our anger has cooled,”

You know, I can understand being mad. If I found a Bible that someone had used for target practice, I would be upset. But that's it. I wouldn't seethe, or riot- and this guy Zubaie seems pretty level headed about the whole thing, and is ready to let it go. But Reuters and it's writers are not letting it go, they're trying to get something started, as the saying goes.

I would much rather we all riddle the Koran with questions.

re: #5 Sharmuta

Exactly!

Hide the women, children, and KFCs, the Saracens are about to riot.

Meanwhile, Christian churches are burned, parishoners assaulted and all I hear from al reuters is.....crickets.

re: #8 jaunte

I would much rather we all riddle the Koran with questions.

Here's a whole page from which to start- Contradictions in the koran.

And how many Qurans went up in smoke when various islamic shrines and mosques were blown up by AQ and other 'insurgents'? Yet that was never the front page item reported by Al Reuters. I bet if a soldier read the Quran while eating a BLT, the caliphs at AlReuters would also have a royal meltdown.

Some parts of the Koran do need to be removed IMHO but that's just my humble opinion

Of course I'm not allowed to think that by some people

They'd riddle me if they could

re: #10 Mister Ghost

Hide the women, children, and KFCs, the Saracens are about to riot.

KFC? You mean Kentucky Fried Chicken? Haven't they already gone halal?

re: #7 gop_patriot

You know, I can understand being mad. If I found a Bible that someone had used for target practice, I would be upset. But that's it. I wouldn't seethe, or riot- and this guy Zubaie seems pretty level headed about the whole thing, and is ready to let it go. But Reuters and it's writers are not letting it go, they're trying to get something started, as the saying goes.

And when US troops or other muslim are injured or killed by any riots or other actions- I'll be sure to look to reuters.

re: #7 gop_patriot

And as everyone here knows, Christians don't revere or worship the book itself, but it's contents. It's just paper and ink. So if it falls apart, drops into a mud puddle, or gets lost, fine, go buy another one.

re: #10 Mister Ghost

Hide the women, children, and KFCs, the Saracens are about to riot.

That is the plan, especially now that weather in Europe is warm enough to sustain one.

re: #15 galloping granny

KFC was not in the time of the profit!,....er prohet.

Paging Rage Boy, paging Rage Boy...

It looks like quick action by our military to deal with the situation has Reuters wondering what it takes to stir up trouble against the US military where there is none. It's a shame our soldiers have to fight the terrorist enabling MSM as well as the terrorists themselves.

the commander in that story dhimmied like a good lil dhimmy

First Amendment says I can shoot holes through this book anytime I please. I mean it doesn't seem to bother people when the First Amendment is shot.

/McCain-Feingold

re: #8 jaunte

I would much rather we all riddle the Koran with questions.

True. Anyway, a bullet can't hurt ideas. It is a book guys, relax.

Spend more time defending the book's ideas.

LOL, the next Obama tape, I mean Osama tape, will cover this incident.

One can do more damage to the enemy by reading the Qur'an, taking note of its inimical verses -- 3:28, 3:118, 4:138-139, 5:51, 9:5, 9:29, 9:123, 48:29, 60:1, 60:4, et al. -- and informing other infidels of them than by shooting at it.

For practice of the latter sort, use an IPSC target or a B-27, and make sure you can hit the bridge as quickly as you can the boiler room.

OK, class, in a 100 word essay, compare and contrast the mainstream media portrayal of the following events:
(1) the criticism of the NEA's funding of Andres Serrano's "Piss Christ";
(2) Rudy Giuilani's criticism of Chris Offili's "The Holy Virgin Mary"; and
(3) a bullet ridden Koran.

"Our anger has cooled,” said Zubaie,

Is it me, or do Muslims seem to get angry easily and often? Perhaps if we just become submissive to them, all will become as Paradise.

/dhimmi stupid suggestion

I'd rather see "infidels riddle splodey dopes with bullets".

there's just something not right abt. this bizarre effort to make nice w/ these people and a book. it's so pc and over the top w/ the kissing of the koran. it's a war screed. i bet the islamists, themselves, are confused at our absurd posturing and fawning. is this a clever rouse to throw them off track, keep them wondering if we are really fighting a war. or are they out right laughing at us. this kind of bending over backwards just seems counterproductive.

Dang, don't that just beat all!
On the one hand, the US military is told to never even touch a Koran because if a Khaffir touches it, it is desecrated, and then on the other hand, they are told to kiss it!

What about the fellows who took over the 'Church of the Nativity' some years ago, and used the Bible to wipe their a$$?

I really don't know if we're ever going to get anywhere acting like this. Sure the guy was stupid doing such a thing....but now any soldier who wants out of Iraq knows what to do.... maybe the fellow on yesterdays' post who refuses to fight an 'illegal war' will just give up and go to Iraq and as soon as he has NATO rounds, loose a few into a Koran. I mean really now, how much punishment can you get for shooting a book? Like we used to say in the Army, "what are they gonna do, send me back to The World"? LOL

All grist to the mill.

We should be beaming a 24hr koran dececration, prophet defamation tv channel across the middle east. Just to try and desensitize them

re: #31 russiankulak

Dang, don't that just beat all!
On the one hand, the US military is told to never even touch a Koran because if a Khaffir touches it, it is desecrated, and then on the other hand, they are told to kiss it!

What about the fellows who took over the 'Church of the Nativity' some years ago, and used the Bible to wipe their a$$?

I really don't know if we're ever going to get anywhere acting like this. Sure the guy was stupid doing such a thing....but now any soldier who wants out of Iraq knows what to do.... maybe the fellow on yesterdays' post who refuses to fight an 'illegal war' will just give up and go to Iraq and as soon as he has NATO rounds, loose a few into a Koran. I mean really now, how much punishment can you get for shooting a book? Like we used to say in the Army, "what are they gonna do, send me back to The World"? LOL

Yup. And I really object to ANY officer in the United Stated Military kissing the koran or any other book.

re: #25 Mister Ghost

LOL, the next Obama tape, I mean Osama tape, will cover this incident.

The Al-Qaida Rich Little will do his best to get some new info into his new speech.

re: #31 russiankulak

Dang, don't that just beat all!
On the one hand, the US military is told to never even touch a Koran because if a Khaffir touches it, it is desecrated, and then on the other hand, they are told to kiss it!

What about the fellows who took over the 'Church of the Nativity' some years ago, and used the Bible to wipe their a$$?

I really don't know if we're ever going to get anywhere acting like this. Sure the guy was stupid doing such a thing....but now any soldier who wants out of Iraq knows what to do.... maybe the fellow on yesterdays' post who refuses to fight an 'illegal war' will just give up and go to Iraq and as soon as he has NATO rounds, loose a few into a Koran. I mean really now, how much punishment can you get for shooting a book? Like we used to say in the Army, "what are they gonna do, send me back to The World"? LOL

That's not fair. The act of desicration you refer to was against Christians and you should know that that is fair game. Come on, what's wrong with you?

re: #11 pingjockey

Meanwhile, Christian churches are burned, parishoners assaulted and all I hear from al reuters is.....crickets.

Yep!

I just found out yesterday about the Assyrian genocide...by the Ottomans as encouraged by Germany during WWI.

And no one even mentioned it!

It was I think the first usage of Jihad in modern times...

If you want a linkie I can look for it again...someone here linked to it in the linkviewer yesterday.

re: #4 ec marm

Offending Christians is always okay. Happens everywhere nowadays. It's 'progressive' and 'hip' to look down on them.

And nobody complains when Jews are called "sons of pigs and monkeys"; there is no worldwide seething when synagogues are defaced or destroyed, but leave a pig's head on a mosque doorstep and it is a huge crime.
(I'm not saying we should leave a pig's head on a mosque doorstep, though)

IMHO, Reuters is puffing this stoiry in hopes that the Islamicists will go on a rampage, preferably in Iraq and w/American targets. This would confirm their belief that Islamic Rage is caused by Western insensitivity and is really our fault.
The story also can easily be spun to "prove" that our military is, indeed, composed of idiotic Neanderthals. Our presence in Iraq is thus rightly opposed by the ever-valiant "insurgents."

/Not that I'm questioning their patriotism.

re: #16 Sharmuta

Khalid Al-Ansary is Iraqi, from Baghdad it seems.

I see that Reuters is not checking us much lately...

Well now, lookee here -

Web Site Sympathetic to Terrorists Blasts FOX News for Profile

An English-language Web site that unabashedly promotes the work of Islamic terrorists has responded to a FOXNews.com profile of the site by assailing "the Kuffaar behind FOX News." Kuffaar, roughly translated, means "unbelievers."

After quoting FOX News.com's Friday story and citing verses from the Koran, the Revolution.Muslimpad.com blog affirms the belief that jihad is "an Islaamic obligation" rooted in Muslim texts.

"So in reality, you are calling my Prophet, Muhammad — peace be upon him — a terrorist," the blog post continues. "But of course, you guys won’t say that directly because you fear the wrath of the Muslims."

I guess if the shoe fits . . . . .

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

The Qur'an already has so many holes in it that a few more would not matter. In any case the punctured product could be marketed as the Swiss version and no sales would be lost.

re: #22 allbusiness

the commander in that story dhimmied like a good lil dhimmy

I disagree 110%. As I've explained in a previous post,we have to look at the Big Picture. The lives of American Soldiers,as well as Iraqi's, is on the line and any intel that can be gathered from the locals is crucial to the safety of our Soldiers. We want that river of intel to keep flowing,not dry up because some moron did something stupid. If you believe the Koran is just a book when it is shot full of holes,then it is still just a book for this Commander. The Commander is to be commended for quick action that very damn well may have saved us from seeing the flow of intel to our people in the field cut off. I said that before and I believe this article proves I was right. Like I said before,that's a small price to pay to save American lives and help kill the bad guys.

I would imagine that during this presidential race,our enemies (both combatants and media sympathizers) will do their best to ratchet up the violence to help their Democrat brothers win the White House.

re: #37 Psaturn

Yep!

I just found out yesterday about the Assyrian genocide...by the Ottomans as encouraged by Germany during WWI.

And no one even mentioned it!

It was I think the first usage of Jihad in modern times...

If you want a linkie I can look for it again...someone here linked to it in the linkviewer yesterday.

That would be good.

Speaking of the Ottomans, you know the entire claim of Arab ownership of "palestine" is so much hokum, as the area that is today Israel, Syria, Jordan and more was until 1918 part of the Ottoman Empire (Turkey today).

I get more upset when people get riddled with bullets.

I'm unconcerned about desecrating the koran, since it's essentially a manifesto of hate. In fact, I'd not be adverse to doing a bit of target practice myself. I can do that. I'm a civilian.

But that's not the issue here. Our military doesn't recruit morons, so the soldier in question should have known better.
When I was in the military, we were subjected to endless lectures on how to avoid offending the sensibilities of our host nationals. A military person is an ambassador to the locals, they would say, ad-nausium. I can't believe that the same doesn't hold true today, also.
This soldier needs to be disciplined under the UCMJ and re-assigned to Afghanistan. Otherwise, malcontent soldiers might get the idea that such behavior could be their ticket out. It was a stupid thing to do that has the potential of adversely affecting our progress in the GWOT.

re: #34 galloping granny

Yup. And I really object to ANY officer in the United Stated Military kissing the koran or any other book.

i agree. it's not the right approach. it's not going to win hearts and minds. it is irrational behavior and does not inspire confidence.

Really bullet riddled

Must be a slow 'news' day for Reuters.

I'm supposed to feel shock and horror because a US soldier did something stupid, was punished and the military took appropriate action.

Okay, I guess.

Too bad Reuters doesn't show this same kind of concern when Islamic terrorists riddle a bunch of civilians with shrapnel, bullets, and bombs when they target shopping centers, markets, and restaurants.

And I'm talking Muslims on Muslim violence, to say nothing of the terrorism against Israel, that occurs on a daily basis.

re: #44 WayDownSouthInBama

Your argument is a very good one.
(I still think kissing the Koran goes too far, but .........)

re: #40 gop_patriot

Khalid Al-Ansary is Iraqi, from Baghdad it seems.

I hope they're not paying him much for that kind of dear-diary navel-gazing.

re: #40 gop_patriot

Khalid Al-Ansary is Iraqi, from Baghdad it seems.

Now, after four years of working with the BBC, Reuters, Guardian, Sky News and The New York Times, I feel that I like this craft and it has become part of me. My whole life has changed; I am now a reporter and can’t fit anywhere else but journalism.

I guess that means we can expect more of his objective reporting in the future.

I think the commanders did the right thing. It's a simple reality that they have to deal with over there; and only senior military commanders will get the necessary tribal respect to cool it down.

It's still absurd though.

re: #55 Sharmuta

I guess that means we can expect more of his objective reporting in the future.

I can think of a few places he would fit.

re: #54 jaunte

It is kind of sappy, isn't it?

I suppose Geoff Millard of the IVAW will wave this like a bloody shirt to prove what he preaches about our troops being racists.

re: #58 gop_patriot

This in particulra:
"When you come from an Eastern society, it is a bit hard to be rejected when you ask for something..."
So everyone there gets what they want? This is just silly.

(Particular)

i feel abt. this koran kissing and coddling like i did when i saw pres. bush holding hands w/ the saudi king and shuffling w/ that sword blade so close to his neck. an uneasiness in my gut.

re: #44 WayDownSouthInBama

I disagree 110%. As I've explained in a previous post,we have to look at the Big Picture. The lives of American Soldiers,as well as Iraqi's, is on the line and any intel that can be gathered from the locals is crucial to the safety of our Soldiers. We want that river of intel to keep flowing,not dry up because some moron did something stupid. If you believe the Koran is just a book when it is shot full of holes,then it is still just a book for this Commander. The Commander is to be commended for quick action that very damn well may have saved us from seeing the flow of intel to our people in the field cut off. I said that before and I believe this article proves I was right. Like I said before,that's a small price to pay to save American lives and help kill the bad guys.

Did you see the video of the commander (I posted it in the spinoff links - Charles, I emailed you a link too). I felt sorry for the commander. He practically got down on his knees and begged forgiveness. Kind of absurd.

Screw you Reuters! Your nothing but wasted internet space like Huffpo and Kos.

re: #49 nyc redneck

i agree. it's not the right approach. it's not going to win hearts and minds. it is irrational behavior and does not inspire confidence.

I have no problem with someone kissing a copy of Tulio Levi-Cita's "The Absolute Differential Calculus" and neither would Einstein, he used it. As for "holy" books, there's no explaining poor taste in literature.

Meh. I just hope the grouping was tight.

Sounds to me like everyone in the story acted pretty well grown up.

Soldier shoots up a Koran, which isn't the end of the world but isn't brilliant.

Army says, 'We're sorry about that.'

Local Muslim community says, 'Cool' and doesn't burn anything down.

A rare exchange, I'd say.

re: #38 Kosh's Shadow

And nobody complains when Jews are called "sons of pigs and monkeys"; there is no worldwide seething when synagogues are defaced or destroyed, but leave a pig's head on a mosque doorstep and it is a huge crime.
(I'm not saying we should leave a pig's head on a mosque doorstep, though)

In the past year in this country we've seen a shooter go into a Jewish organization and a Christian Church and shoot and kill people in both. But yet the press feels that Muslims are the 'oppressed'. Has the equivalent occurred in a mosque in this country?

re: #48 jamsler

I'm unconcerned about desecrating the koran, since it's essentially a manifesto of hate. In fact, I'd not be adverse to doing a bit of target practice myself. I can do that. I'm a civilian.

But that's not the issue here. Our military doesn't recruit morons, so the soldier in question should have known better.
When I was in the military, we were subjected to endless lectures on how to avoid offending the sensibilities of our host nationals. A military person is an ambassador to the locals, they would say, ad-nausium. I can't believe that the same doesn't hold true today, also.
This soldier needs to be disciplined under the UCMJ and re-assigned to Afghanistan. Otherwise, malcontent soldiers might get the idea that such behavior could be their ticket out. It was a stupid thing to do that has the potential of adversely affecting our progress in the GWOT.

You made the point I was about to write. It seems to me that the soldier disobeyed orders

About the Koran-kissing: was the officer a Muslim? That would sort of make sense.

If not, as WayDownSouthInBama's (#44) point is well taken. No one had to convert to Islam or denounce their own religion.

This is also a terrific example showing that we are NOT an occupying power but an ally helping to establish and maintain sovereignty.

re: #59 Jonn Lilyea

I suppose Geoff Millard of the IVAW will wave this like a bloody shirt to prove what he preaches about our troops being racists.

Islam is not a race, it is a religion. Sometimes people forget that little detail. I try that out on lefty's all the time, and they can't get their heads around it and change the subject then.

re: #46 galloping granny

That would be good.

Speaking of the Ottomans, you know the entire claim of Arab ownership of "palestine" is so much hokum, as the area that is today Israel, Syria, Jordan and more was until 1918 part of the Ottoman Empire (Turkey today).

And divided by Britain and France in the aftermath of World War II. In fact, the term 'naqba' originally referred to Bedouin tribesmen now known as 'Palestinians' being cut off from Syria in 1920.

re: #56 Charles

I think the commanders did the right thing. It's a simple reality that they have to deal with over there; and only senior military commanders will get the necessary tribal respect to cool it down.

It's still absurd though.

I do not object to the apology. If a member of the US military did indeed use the koran for target practice, he did so knowing full well exactly what would happen. Our military gets an extremely thorough training in local expectations before they are sent overseas to a muslim country. Or elsewhere for that matter. In areas where military can take their spouses overseas, even the family members are given this training.

I do, however, object to a United States mililtary officer actually kissing the koran.

re: #71 Carl in Jerusalem

And divided by Britain and France in the aftermath of World War II. In fact, the term 'naqba' originally referred to Bedouin tribesmen now known as 'Palestinians' being cut off from Syria in 1920.

Sorry. Make that World War I.

What cranks my gears is the humiliation endured by the Major who had to deliver (and kiss! a copy of the koran and , with hat in hand, apologize (grovel?) for someone elses actions.
It will be a shame if "rooters' trys to make this another Abu Grav (forgive the mispelling)!

re: #72 galloping granny

Agreed, all the way around.

If an Iraqi soldier used a Bible for target practice, I certainly wouldn't riot or burn anything or kill anyone. But it would irritate me, and an apology would go a long way toward making amends.

re: #74 Shaky Louie

The Major may want to keep that soldier close by where he can keep an eye on him.

re: #56 Charles

It's still absurd though.

Especially the kissing part. Ugh.

re: #71 Carl in Jerusalem

And divided by Britain and France in the aftermath of World War II. In fact, the term 'naqba' originally referred to Bedouin tribesmen now known as 'Palestinians' being cut off from Syria in 1920.

Carl, somebody posted a link a couple of days ago to an archive I had never seen of pictures of Israel through about 1930. You should take a look at it.

One of the things that really struck me was that they had pictures of a number of Arab villages that are in what is now Israel. Mud huts with thatch roofs. They sure as heck did not have any keys to the doors.

You should find it fairly easily by finding my comment about an archive the PA used to have on their website and following the comments down a little bit.

re: #76 jaunte

The Major may want to keep that soldier close by where he can keep an eye on him.

he has already been disciplined and ordered out of iraq. (according to the story)

Who doesn't riddle Koran's with bullets? Usual its in someones hand though.

re: #79 nyc redneck

Just thinking that may have been what he was after.

re: #74 Shaky Louie

What cranks my gears is the humiliation endured by the Major who had to deliver (and kiss! a copy of the koran and , with hat in hand, apologize (grovel?) for someone elses actions.
It will be a shame if "rooters' trys to make this another Abu Grav (forgive the mispelling)!

The major did it because if they had followed the same practice followed by every mother of a five year old who steals a candy bar and made the troop do it himself the mob would have torn him to pieces.

re: #80 U.S.S. Nixon

Right. I'm sure you've done a great deal of that.

The point here is that if a US soldier did this then that soldier should be removed from the theater of operations. We have no time to do damage control. And Reuters can help by shitcanning this story.

They should have shot up a copy of the Bible or the Torah.....I am certain Rueters would have reported this incident as well......right?....right? Well, maybe not, but at least the tribal leaders that were so offended about the Koran being shot up would not appreciate another holy book being desecrated either....right?......right? Oh yeah, I forget, only Muslims are allowed to have thin skin and over-react to every little provocation.

That being said, shooting up that damn book is not a good idea when you are trying to win "hearts and minds".

re: #83 Cognito

Right. I'm sure you've done a great deal of that.

I think he forgot his sarc tag.

re: #84 Point Blank

The point here is that if a US soldier did this then that soldier should be removed from the theater of operations. We have no time to do damage control. And Reuters can help by shitcanning this story.

Reuters has no interest in helping to bring order out of chaos in the mideast. Order is not newsworthy. Chaos is.

Once more lopsided dhimmitudinal coverage by the liberal media. I suppose Keith Olberman will play this incident up alongside his Cold Blooded Killers comment referring to our troops. Afterall... to the liberal mind, the U.S. is the root of all evil in the world.
_______________________________________
ZZ Bachman - ZardozZ News & Satire RSS

re: #81 jaunte

Just thinking that may have been what he was after.

that crossed my mind too.

re: #5 Sharmuta

Hard for the rest of the muslim community to get upset if reuters doesn't promote this story.

Islamic Rage Boy to begin seething in 3...2...1...

re: #63 Carl in Jerusalem

No,I'm on dial-up so I'm lucky to even see still photos much less moving pictures. I understand everyone being upset over the Koran kissing thing,but let me just repost what I posted back in another thread:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

If everyone would just think for a little bit,and place themselves in the shoes of that Commander. You rely on local intel to save the lives of your men. You need that intel and now you face a situation where that intel is going to stop. You KNOW good soldiers are going to die if it stops and you are the only one that has a chance to keep that intel flowing. Would you kiss a Koran if you knew it would keep intel flowing and that would save the lives of your men,or would you refuse to do it and watch them die knowing you could have stopped it?

Don't know about you guys,but I'd have kissed it ...twice...if I knew it would save American lives. It's just a book,remember?

re: #81 jaunte

Just thinking that may have been what he was after.

Why didn't Matthis Chiroux think of that?!

I wish I could go through history and see exactly how many dominant societies (Romans, Greeks, Chaldeans, etc.) actually apologized for the desecration of something that the dominated society held dear> I really don't give a rat's butt about PC but it sure as hell sends a maessage of weakness to the oposition.

(sigh) Once again, we are defeating ourselves.

"Newsflash! Muslim shoots Bible in act of defiance. Christian mobs seethe and riot, burn mosques and set off bombs!"

I mean, it could happen, no?

I think an apology and an acceptance that it was stupid and puerile would have been good enough. Sucking up and kissing ass would be bad.

This is also a thread at Jihadwatch.org

Hugh Fitzgerald suggested in the comments that the American military has lost 15,000 Captains because of the unpopular Iraqi war.

I am now about to catch hell because I say its just not true and back it up with facts.

re: #92 Sharmuta

Matthis is thinking of his political future; he wouldn't want to jeopardize those votes!

I'll bet there's not a commander in the military who wouldn't prefer kissing a Koran to trying to control rioting mobs of enraged fanatics.

I get upset when I see any book being destroyed.
Even though I don't believe the Bible is the absolute "Word of God", I am offended when I see anyone destroy or debase it.
How does the average Muslim feel when a soldier of the United States of America uses a Koran as a target?
I'll ask some of my Muslim friends when I'm in Indonesia in a couple of weeks. I'm sure they won't be seething, but maybe just a little offended.

But for the MSM to try to whip this incident up is really despicable.

re: #91 WayDownSouthInBama

No,I'm on dial-up so I'm lucky to even see still photos much less moving pictures. I understand everyone being upset over the Koran kissing thing,but let me just repost what I posted back in another thread:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

If everyone would just think for a little bit,and place themselves in the shoes of that Commander. You rely on local intel to save the lives of your men. You need that intel and now you face a situation where that intel is going to stop. You KNOW good soldiers are going to die if it stops and you are the only one that has a chance to keep that intel flowing. Would you kiss a Koran if you knew it would keep intel flowing and that would save the lives of your men,or would you refuse to do it and watch them die knowing you could have stopped it?

Don't know about you guys,but I'd have kissed it ...twice...if I knew it would save American lives. It's just a book,remember?

I wasn't talking about kissing the book. Big deal. I was talking about the way the officer had to humiliate himself. According to CNN, this guy is the commander of all US forces in Iraq. And he BEGS them for forgiveness.... Literally.

re: #87 galloping granny

Yes, you're right. I am wasting my breath when I criticize MSM.

re: #97 Charles

I'll bet there's not a commander in the military who wouldn't prefer kissing a Koran to trying to control rioting mobs of enraged fanatics.

In today's climate you are probably correct. Patton surely would not have agreed.

re: #97 Charles

I'll bet there's not a commander in the military who wouldn't prefer kissing a Koran to trying to control rioting mobs of enraged fanatics.

probably, so. you're right, but it's a lose-lose situation; don't grovel-insight a riot. grovel-embolden the enemy.....

re: #60 jaunte

This in particulra:
"When you come from an Eastern society, it is a bit hard to be rejected when you ask for something..."

So everyone there gets what they want? This is just silly.

It shows me that this reporter might have a hard time seeing any other perspective than his own, since he obviously has no idea that other people in the world don't like being rejected and not getting their way, either. LOL

We, in the West, do not approve of official government-sanctioned burning of books. A member of the military is a government functionary of a sort.

If our military does not apologize for such actions, then they are consenting to a behavior which the Western tradition finds to be abhorrent.

re: #101 galloping granny

In today's climate you are probably correct. Patton surely would not have agreed.

Then again Patton never fought what people now call 'asymmetrical war,' or manage a hostile occupation, as far as I know.

re: #97 Charles

There might be a few, at least.

Depends what you mean by "commander" and "prefer", and under just what circumstances you ask.

re: #104 Pastorius

We, in the West, do not approve of official government-sanctioned burning of books. A member of the military is a government functionary of a sort.

If our military does not apologize for such actions, then they are consenting to a behavior which the Western tradition finds to be abhorrent.

I call BS! who was burning? And have you ever seen what the whabists do to confiscated Bibles!?

re: #101 galloping granny

In today's climate you are probably correct. Patton surely would not have agreed.

patton would not kiss a koran.

re: #96 jaunte

Matthis is thinking of his political future; he wouldn't want to jeopardize those votes!

I think you're right about that guy. I think he got the whole idea from hanging around the university moonbats. He could be a bigger "hero" and get more attention by going the Cindy Sheehan or (better yet) John Kerry route. He also gets the usual lefty benefit of feeling he is part of a superior, holier elite.

re: #107 paxnhymn

I call BS! who was burning? And have you ever seen what the whabists do to confiscated Bibles!?

1) Shooting, burning. Whatever.

2) I don't think we should start looking to Wahhabists for our standards.

re: #102 paxnhymn

No, the point is restraint emboldens our friends. It also keeps our soldiers alive longer. We are going to need them to fight real battles.

I also think that as a guest in someone's house, you don't piss on the carpet. And if you do get caught, you apologize profusely.

re: #108 nyc redneck

patton would not kiss a koran.

Among a goodly number of other things he would not kiss - including ass.

Sure, Patton wouldn't kiss a Koran, but this isn't total war against a mechanized army, either.

Q: How many Korans are harmed when Islamic fascists target their own people in markets, mosques and homes with VBIED's and suicide bombings?

re: #97 Charles

I'll bet there's not a commander in the military who wouldn't prefer kissing a Koran to trying to control rioting mobs of enraged fanatics.

Well, true, I can imagine that he's thinking of all the lives he is saving by not letting it get out of hand; just nipping it in the bud maybe. Glad I didn't have to do it, though.

So to be clear then we use 7.62 NATO or 5.56 NATO for the Koran and 7.62 X 39 for the Bible or the Torah. Any thoughts on pistol calibers? I am at a loss as to what to use for the Book of Mormon? What ever happened to shooting at paper targets and -- well -- each other?

re: #109 wolfie

Definitely a Kerry(lite) wannabe.

re: #114 Shug

Thats not the point. We do not need to give them the ammunition with which to hate us. We do that well enough just sucking air.

re: #112 galloping granny

Among a goodly number of other things he would not kiss - including ass.

LOL,
he'd resign first.

An American soldier has been disciplined and ordered from Iraq

beats shooting yourself in the foot

re: #82 galloping granny

The major did it because if they had followed the same practice followed by every mother of a five year old who steals a candy bar and made the troop do it himself the mob would have torn him to pieces.

I wouldn't want that to happen either.
Maybe the offending troop should have, at least, gone with the Major and been made to personally apologize. Then ship his dumb ass out of there!

Saw this story earlier, not a smart thing to do when disrespect to a book can lead to the removal of your head.

re: #115 gop_patriot

Well, true, I can imagine that he's thinking of all the lives he is saving by not letting it get out of hand; just nipping it in the bud maybe. Glad I didn't have to do it, though.

Kiss a book or watch men, women children and your own soldiers in peril. It might not be pretty, but it's better than sending flag draped coffins back to the States.

Proof positive that the Koran is not "faster then a speeding bullets".

It also can't leap tall buildings in a single bound. It- however- can cause tall buildings to be attacked and innocents to be murdered.

re: #118 Point Blank

I am not excusing book abuse.
I am pointing out that there is a double standard.
These people blow up their own korans all the time, along with men women and children and nobody at reuters or anywhere else gives a shit.

It's not about the koran. This is just an excuse for them to seethe.

but I do agree that we should not give them Free Seething opportunities

re: #92 Sharmuta

I'm reminded of the sailor on the pbs show "Carrier" who gamed the system by claiming that he was a racist, to get a discharge.

Kos Kidz: "F*** yeah": Worse Than Abu Ghraib

So when an American soldier desecrates a Koran and riddles it with bullets, the message is clear: it does not need any translation. This isn't the "cartoon controversy" where a bunch of radical Islamists thumped their chests in response. This will hit home with the moderate Muslims around the world. Moderate Muslims are not going to go out on the streets and march in protest. But they will understand the message coming from America.
...
Already I am confronted with Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay when I speak out against human rights violations in the Muslim world. At least in those cases I can make the admittedly weak case that those abuses were carried out in the overzealous response to terrorists acts - that those acts were targetted at who the United States thought posed a security threat to itself. In this case, however, there is no getting around the fact that the target is the over one billion Muslims around the world.

re: #121 Shaky Louie

I just hope it wasn't my nephew. I'd love to see him come home in one piece. But if he comes home like this, I'm gonna swat him upside the head.

re: #99 Carl in Jerusalem

I understand. I bet the Iraqi's were just as shocked at his actions as many Americans are. And that,my friend,is EXACTLY what was needed to keep these people on our side. It took a drastic measure that goes beyond what the offended party was expecting. Yes,it is certainly not what are used to seeing from our Commanders in a war. But this war is a different type war than all of the other wars our nation,and the world,has ever fought. I believe the Commander did what he felt was necessary to diffuse what was looking like a very nasty situation. I know one thing for sure,that idiot that did the shooting had better hope he NEVER runs into this Commander in the States.

re: #121 Shaky Louie

I wouldn't want that to happen either.
Maybe the offending troop should have, at least, gone with the Major and been made to personally apologize. Then ship his dumb ass out of there!

Nope - then they would have torn both the troop and the Major to bits. Or demanded that the soldier be tried under shariah law. Shipping him home on the first available transport, even by rowboat if need be, was the smartest thing they could have done.

The key element of why the media makes this a big story is the intended , maybe subliminal message-- we need someone who " gets" it in charge and running the country, i.e. a PC President, like... Barack Obama. Instead we have warmongering, internationally unsophisticated yahoos like Bush and Cheney in charge, so of course
an individual soldier will commit such an egregious crime.

So who is going to apologize for the Christian churches that have been burned down and destroyed in muslim countries. A bit more than a book I would say.

re: #125 Shug

Yes, your point is well taken. The double standard exists and is documented. But that is beyond our control. What this soldier did is not.

Dear Lizards, you're all making excellent, logical points about the absurd form of the apology.

But our enemy is neither excellent (as in worthy of grudging respect, as, to my mind, the Soviets were) nor logical.

In an effort to do the least amount of damage, we are not pursuing a scorched earth policy; neither are we trying to completely subjugate the population. In fact, our approach and its inherent risks to our own interest are unprecedented, but that is what makes us better than our enemies (and even some of our allies).

Henry IV of France, when told he could have the throne if he converted to Catholicism, is supposed to have said, "Paris is worth a mass." I think continued progress towards stability in Iraq is worth a book-kissing (although I too cringe at the thought.)

re: #105 Cognito

Then again Patton never fought what people now call 'asymmetrical war,' or manage a hostile occupation, as far as I know.

He would have blown up every town and killed them all until the citizen's will to fight back was gone......we do not have to do that in this situation. However, If we would have presented a unified front from the start, from the government to the media to the general populous, our position in Iraq would be better than it is. Instead, there has been a concerted effort by not only the MSM, but by a good portion of the Democratic party to undermine every aspect of this war.....and, if Sen. Obama gets elected, he will insure our defeat by withdrawing before we are done.....He will feel very good about this action, as will most of the left in the USA. However, none of them will feel the slightest bit of shame or guilt when the ensuing bloodbath engulfs the entire region. Nope, they will pin that on Bush as well....

Well, the soldier can't claim self defense, because this particular Quran was not armed with a fervent adherent.

re: #127 Killgore Trout

In this case, however, there is no getting around the fact that the target is the over one billion Muslims around the world.

Oh for heaven's sake. Talk about trying to start something.

re: #127 Killgore Trout

This isn't the "cartoon controversy" where a bunch of radical Islamists thumped their chests in response.

Hey kosling dipsh*t- people DIED over those cartoons.

Already I am confronted with Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay when I speak out against human rights violations in the Muslim world.

Uh- this one hasn't heard of FGM or the treatment of homosexuals yet, has it?

re: #134 Desert Dog

I'm not sure what all that's got to do with Patton, exactly...

Here's the deal. Patton fought conventional war. We're now fighting an unconventional war, and Patton -- unless he adapted, which he just might -- would have a hard time winning.

And one of the necessary adaptations would be showing respect to a culture that you don't necessarily naturally respect.

re: #56 Charles

It is beyond absurd. If the Koran were newly written today it would not even find a publisher & Martha Stewart's latest book on Cheese Balls would outsell it.

re: #132 Point Blank

agree completely. It's amazing sometimes the most basic things that get messed up.

I am sure the commanders in the field by this point have all hammered into their people 1 solid rule : Don't do anything stupid to piss off the Locals and generate bad PR to negate all the great things we are doing.
Shooting up a koran certainly equals something to definately piss off the locals.

re: #118 Point Blank

Thats not the point. We do not need to give them the ammunition with which to hate us. We do that well enough just sucking air.

history is written by the victors. Who will be writing our history in 100 years? I can bet it won't be apologists..

re: #127 Killgore Trout

Kos Kidz: "F*** yeah": Worse Than Abu Ghraib

From one of the posters there:

The Quraan is holiness in carnet.

I'm sooooooooo using that one.

"He who takes offense when no offense was intended is a fool: he who takes offense when offense was intended is a a bigger fool"

- Brigham Young

re: #127 Killgore Trout

There may be some eyes opened on that Kos thread re: the relative importance to muslims of the quran vs. human life.

re: #105 Cognito

Excessive ambivalence and overreaching standards of moral conduct never won any war.

re: #141 paxnhymn

history is written by the victors. Who will be writing our history in 100 years? I can bet it won't be apologists..

What's your point?

The Quraan is holiness in carnet.

Too bad that cannot be a rotating title, but

ROTFLMAO

re: #142 rightymouse

I'm sooooooooo using that one.

"in carnet"? What the heck is "carnet"?

re: #144 jaunte

Yes, I was just noticing that.

re: #148 galloping granny

carnets are those little burgundy colored stones

re: #146 Point Blank

What's your point?

I think his point is lets fight this war like we really mean it and WIN.

Does this mean that if you are serving in Iraq and want to leave, all you have to do is shoot a Koran?

-ron

re: #150 Ojoe

carnets are those little burgundy colored stones

No, no no - those are "garnets" Tough a koran in garnet might be interesting.

re: #150 Ojoe

carnets are those little burgundy colored stones

I thought that was a garnet?

re: #123 Sharmuta

Kiss a book or watch men, women children and your own soldiers in peril. It might not be pretty, but it's better than sending flag draped coffins back to the States.

i agree that is the most important concern, the safety of our troops. i'm just not convinced that kissing the koran is anything but a show of weakness to the enemy. and could actually inspire them and embolden them. also why would the locals give up information to us if we are perceived as grovelers?
it is a gesture that does not seem to come from strength. and the islamic world is all abt. respecting strength and looking for weakness.

re: #152 ballantrae

Does this mean that if you are serving in Iraq and want to leave, all you have to do is shoot a Koran?

-ron

Sure seems alot easier than shooting yourself in the foot I guess.

re: #152 ballantrae

Does this mean that if you are serving in Iraq and want to leave, all you have to do is shoot a Koran?

-ron

That is exactly what it means. I suspect not too many will try it though. The kid might have got his ass sent stateside but he WILL pay.

What does it mean to turn the other cheek (Matthew 5:39)?

A: Jesus' complete statement is "If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." Of course, any striking is a painful blow, but the striking in this case is meant as a gross insult (cf. 2 Corinthians 11:20). If a right-handed person strikes someone's right cheek, presumably it is a slap by the back of the hand. A fist striking you would be on the left cheek. So this teaching by Jesus is not about self-defense, but about an attack on your dignity.

In the eastern culture slapping someone is considered an insult of the highest order. But Jesus says that His disciples should gladly be willing to endure the insult again.

Maybe Muslims can learn that if they don't respond to intentional insults - people will stop doing them. I try to teach this to my little boys every day - sometimes they get it - sometimes they don't.

In the West, words alone suffice for an apology. In Iraq it may well be that pageantry and body language are necessary.
You may be sure that the commander was not actually begging for forgiveness at the time the pictures were taken. I would assume it was a public ceremony set up w/ the advice and cooperation of our Iraqi allies.
I don't think Patton would have done it, but I think Douglas MacArthur would have.
He was the master of occupation and conversion. He managed to tear down the dangerous, negative elements in Japanese culture without spitting on the entire heritage of the Japanese people.

re: #147 Ojoe

Too bad that cannot be a rotating title, but

ROTFLMAO

I still have tears pouring out of my eyes from that comment. HAHAHAHA!

re: #130 galloping granny

Nope - then they would have torn both the troop and the Major to bits. Or demanded that the soldier be tried under shariah law. Shipping him home on the first available transport, even by rowboat if need be, was the smartest thing they could have done.

Still, it jacks my jaw that we have to bend over backward to mollify people in this manner. But if I thought about it, if a little book(ass)-kissing will help to "win the hearts and minds" of the Iraqis and help keep our troops safe and intel flowing I'll just have to suck it up. I don't have to like it, though.

re: #138 Cognito

Of course it is a good idea to respect the traditions and culture of Iraq. It is not wise to piss off the very people we want to influence. We want a stable, democratic and friendly Iraq.

And, of course, The best way to get that is constantly criticize, undermine and do your best to de-legitimatize every effort of the US Military and George Bush. I think having a hostile MSM is also a good way to achieve victory. And, if you cannot get victory or stability that way, you should put your tail between your legs and run away from the fight...leaving it to the locals to sort out amongst themselves.....right?

re: #147 Ojoe

Too bad that cannot be a rotating title, but

ROTFLMAO

I thought at first it said "In carmel."

re: #153 galloping granny

re: #154 JohnnyReb

I am trying to be funny.

LOL

re: #148 galloping granny

"in carnet"? What the heck is "carnet"?

I'm sure the poor soul meant 'incarnate'...but dang...it's so funny, am still laughing my head off.

re: #162 Desert Dog

Again -- I'm not sure what any of that has to do with Patton.

Is it merely a ''you did it too," fallacy to point out how al aqsa martyrs' brigade used an illuminated ancient Bible for toilet paper when they took over the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem?

re: #149 Killgore Trout

Here's a funny tag from that thread:
"I'm not a Limousine Liberal; I am a Prius Progressive"
/Don't label me!

My new product, Kevlar dust jackets in green.

re: #148 galloping granny

A carnet is an instrument used to move products through several different countries and then return to the origin country. Usually trade show booths, sample products and other materials that a business wishes to display for the purposes of gaining new markets. These items are not for sale.

re: #155 nyc redneck

i agree that is the most important concern, the safety of our troops. i'm just not convinced that kissing the koran is anything but a show of weakness to the enemy. and could actually inspire them and embolden them. also why would the locals give up information to us if we are perceived as grovelers?
it is a gesture that does not seem to come from strength. and the islamic world is all abt. respecting strength and looking for weakness.

The safety of our troops is not and never has been the paramount concern of the military. While the lives of our military are not to be thrown away willy-nilly, the mission is more important than the man, as anyone who has ever been near the military will tell you. You don't win a war sitting on your behind keeping people "safe."

The Quraan is holiness in carnet.

In that case the bullet holes are merely flesh wounds.

re: #133 goddessoftheclassroom

Henry IV of France, when told he could have the throne if he converted to Catholicism, is supposed to have said, "Paris is worth a mass." I think continued progress towards stability in Iraq is worth a book-kissing (although I too cringe at the thought.)

But dueling cliches: A man will be foresworn for a kingdom.

Already I am confronted with Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay when I speak out against human rights violations in the Muslim world.

Obviously, there were no human rights violations pre-Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay. Also, obviously, these cited violations stand infintely taller than anything Saddam & Sons carried out.

re: #169 Gordon Marock

My new product, Kevlar dust jackets in green.

Even better, all Korans should be kept in lockboxes.

re: #68 ec marm

In the past year in this country we've seen a shooter go into a Jewish organization and a Christian Church and shoot and kill people in both. But yet the press feels that Muslims are the 'oppressed'. Has the equivalent occurred in a mosque in this country?

No, there was more outcry over the pig's head being left on a mosque - about the worst thing done to a mosque in this country - than the shootings. The shooting in Seattle isn't even being considered a hate crime, but the work of an insane individual.
I leave it as an exercise to the reader to determine whether that description applies to more people than just the shooter.

And what about the fautography expert, Adnan Hajj, who arrived hours after a bombing in Lebanon yet somehow managed to create a scene-for-fauxto-purposes of a koran on fire?
REUTER scrubbed this image but [Link: www.rightwinged.com...]
has it about 1/2 way down the page.

re: #146 Point Blank

What's your point?

time for us to toughen up. In wars things get broken..bad things happen...attrocities, etc. That will never stop. They hate us already. An aplogy was all that was in order. Removing the soldier was in order. Groveling and kissing that foul book was not. Way over the top. once again, I ask what of the historical great societies would we have read about if they showed this kind of weakness? Probably,none because they would have crumbled within from lack of morale and from their enemies being emboldened...

re: #151 Nevergiveup

I think his point is lets fight this war like we really mean it and WIN.

When I read a story like this, I assume that rank and file Iraqis are insulted. Whether you like it or not, a lot of these are friends that we have cultivated at extreme costs. These are the "South Vietnamese" we came to help.

re: #165 rightymouse

I'm sure the poor soul meant 'incarnate'...but dang...it's so funny, am still laughing my head off.

I am quite sure the poor soul did mean incarnate. Just goes to highlight the point that you should not use words that you do not know.

re: #176 Kosh's Shadow

No, there was more outcry over the pig's head being left on a mosque - about the worst thing done to a mosque in this country - than the shootings. The shooting in Seattle isn't even being considered a hate crime, but the work of an insane individual.
I leave it as an exercise to the reader to determine whether that description applies to more people than just the shooter.

That is the crux of our culture clash with Islam: they value symbols over life.

re: #148 galloping granny

"in carnet"? What the heck is "carnet"?

Your question should be: Where is carnet?
I know the answer to that one. It's a small town in New Jersey. They pronounce it as Carteret.
/

re: #178 paxnhymn

time for us to toughen up. In wars things get broken..bad things happen...attrocities, etc. That will never stop. They hate us already. An aplogy was all that was in order. Removing the soldier was in order. Groveling and kissing that foul book was not. Way over the top. once again, I ask what of the historical great societies would we have read about if they showed this kind of weakness? Probably,none because they would have crumbled within from lack of morale and from their enemies being emboldened...

I only disagree about the degree of "weakness" this may or may not show.

re: #71 Carl in Jerusalem

ottomans were turks not arabs kind of weak for them to use turks as an argument for arab control

re: #166 Cognito

Again -- I'm not sure what any of that has to do with Patton.

I am sorry, Cognito, I did not know you are a historian, specializing in Second World War generals...Please enlighten me on your theory of how General Patton would handle today's war? My theory is he would not do too good as he would be well over 100 years old (and in a coffin to boot!). However, I think he would not favor kissing ass and would quickly be re-assigned to a desk job or offered retirement before he laid waste to the land between the rivers.

re: #179 Point Blank

When I read a story like this, I assume that rank and file Iraqis are insulted. Whether you like it or not, a lot of these are friends that we have cultivated at extreme costs. These are the "South Vietnamese" we came to help.

I don't necessarily disagree with your point, but don't bring the Vietnam War into this. It kinda muddies the water.

Extra value is what you get, when you buy in carnet

/rosemary clooney

re: #165 rightymouse

I'm sure the poor soul meant 'incarnate'...but dang...it's so funny, am still laughing my head off.

Now that's funny, I didn't catch that! On the other hand, it's truly scary that they think the koran is "holiness incarnate". Everything that's holy, made into that book? Each Koran? How can you possibly have a rational discussion with someone who believes a book, not just their god, is "holiness incarnate"?

re: #155 nyc redneck

i'm just not convinced that kissing the koran is anything but a show of weakness to the enemy. and could actually inspire them and embolden them.

I agree. I don't see how the public display of grovelling will do anything but display weakness. It's the whole purpose of Islamic seething; to induce grovelling apologies from infidels. They're ajust about as outraged as they're going to get, they still hate us and will kill us if given the chance. They'll be outraged over something new next week and all the apologies in the world aren't going to change that. Also, these people have become our allies because it's in their best interest not because they like us. They need us much more than we need them.

Quick! Put korans on all remaining Buddha statues that haven't been blown up by the Taliban (yet).

"Such an act of desecration of the Muslim holy book could inflame anger against the U.S. military presence in Iraq..."

al reuters reported breathlessly....

re: #162 Desert Dog

We want a stable, democratic and friendly Iraq.

I think that's a mistake as well. THEY don't even want a democratic Iraq. An ally maybe, but these people really don't want democracy and they never have...

BBL

re: #70 JohnnyReb

Yeah, well try telling that to bubblehead Millard. He claims that our troops calling Iraqis "hadjis" is proof of their racism. I'm with you, but these goobers have their teeth into something that the media likes.

re: #186 Nevergiveup

I don't necessarily disagree with your point, but don't bring the Vietnam War into this. It kinda muddies the water.

Oh good Lord, its just an illustration, a reference point.

did they rename this particular book a "holey" Koran?

re: #180 galloping granny

I am quite sure the poor soul did mean incarnate. Just goes to highlight the point that you should not use words that you do not know.

True. But where would we get our giggles from if we didn't have the KosKids torturing the English language? lol!

is it holeyness in carnet?

re: #151 Nevergiveup

I think his point is lets fight this war like we really mean it and WIN.

That's it. We can be touchy feely later.

re: #167 mean Gene

Is it merely a ''you did it too," fallacy to point out how al aqsa martyrs' brigade used an illuminated ancient Bible for toilet paper when they took over the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem?

I don't think it's a "You did it too" scenario. I think it's a matter of saying "You did it too" but we didn't burn down the entire city because we were outraged.

re: #195 Shug

did they rename this particular book a "holey" Koran?

Holey Moley

re: #191 paxnhymn

I think that's a mistake as well. THEY don't even want a democratic Iraq. An ally maybe, but these people really don't want democracy and they never have...

It is not that the Arab nations do not "want" democracy, it is that they still exist in a highly feudal, tribal culture and are not capable of understanding the concepts on which democracy is based. Democracy is, after all, far more than going down and voting.

re: #127 Killgore Trout

That Kosling would piss on a Bible to provoke the "Xtians", the "Religious Right" and the "Jesuslanders"... and laugh while he did it.

Bet on it.

re: #189 Killgore Trout

I agree. I don't see how the public display of grovelling will do anything but display weakness. It's the whole purpose of Islamic seething; to induce grovelling apologies from infidels. They're ajust about as outraged as they're going to get, they still hate us and will kill us if given the chance. They'll be outraged over something new next week and all the apologies in the world aren't going to change that. Also, these people have become our allies because it's in their best interest not because they like us. They need us much more than we need them.

Yeah, well, there is that. But don't forget - these people have also seen what the US military can do when it's pissed off, up close.

re: #194 Point Blank

Oh good Lord, its just an illustration, a reference point.

Well I don't think it is a good reference point either.

as a civilian he can do what ever he wants in America In Iraq for a GI to do it is just plain dumb. esp on the P.R. FRONT.

re: #171 galloping granny

The safety of our troops is not and never has been the paramount concern of the military. While the lives of our military are not to be thrown away willy-nilly, the mission is more important than the man, as anyone who has ever been near the military will tell you. You don't win a war sitting on your behind keeping people "safe."

i think in this situation, the well being of the troops was a definitely a consideration for this type of amends making. it was the soldiers who shot up the koran. my point is i'm not convinced, kissisg the koran, was a good pr stunt to improve their image w/ the locals. a simple clean apology would have been sufficient.

re: #196 rightymouse

True. But where would we get our giggles from if we didn't have the KosKids torturing the English language? lol!

The fargin' bastiges.

re: #205 yochanan

as a civilian he can do what ever he wants in America In Iraq for a GI to do it is just plain dumb. esp on the P.R. FRONT.

The GI - and I assume he has confessed - did this entirely on purpose. Whether his intent was simply to get out of Iraq or to deliberately stir up trouble with the locals, he did it on purpose.

I haven't read the whole thread, and apologize if I am repeating someone else's observation.

I can understand Charles's needing to include a caveat against criticizing American commanders - who, he points out, are constrained to take some sorts of seemingly innocuous action to assure our allies of our respect - for apologizing for the "desecration".

But - come on - are these people going to live in the 21st Century, and practice religious tolerance toward people who are there to help them? A basic principle of tolerance is that not everyone is going to adhere to your beliefs about the holy books. Religion of peace - but intolerance is OK?

re: #205 yochanan

as a civilian he can do what ever he wants in America In Iraq for a GI to do it is just plain dumb. esp on the P.R. FRONT.

I'll agree with that.

re: #204 Nevergiveup

Well I don't think it is a good reference point either.

Fine. Objection noted. Next?

Looks like another slow news day.

re: #201 galloping granny

Democracy is, after all, far more than going down and voting.

A point that is lost upon war and critics. "Hey, they voted and there's still violence. I guess democracy didn't work out so well."

re: #208 Spiny Norman

The fargin' bastiges.

Heh...

re: #206 nyc redneck

i think in this situation, the well being of the troops was a definitely a consideration for this type of amends making. it was the soldiers who shot up the koran. my point is i'm not convinced, kissisg the koran, was a good pr stunt to improve their image w/ the locals. a simple clean apology would have been sufficient.

If kissing the Koran will save Americans loosing their lives uselessly, then I am OK with it. But shoot the Reuter's News guy who reported by it all means. Just kidding ( kinda ).

re: #191 paxnhymn

Well, one can engage in wishful thinking, yes? Their history is hardly one filled with the same experiences as the USA and the western world in general. However, Japan did not have any history of democracy until 1945.....South Korea did not have any history of it either. It is naive to think that Iraq will produce a working and functioning democratic system in a few years. But, I do not think it is impossible for these people to achieve some kind of democratic rule and get some kind of stability in their society. If it is not possible, why are we there? Let's just "pull an Obama" and leave?

re: #134 Desert Dog
and when they sneak a dirty bomb through the southern border and lay waste to L.A., the left will still blame Bush.

re: #201 galloping granny

It is not that the Arab nations do not "want" democracy, it is that they still exist in a highly feudal, tribal culture and are not capable of understanding the concepts on which democracy is based. Democracy is, after all, far more than going down and voting.

no. I've been there. There are many who understand it and think it is the antithesis of islamic tradition.

It would be counter-productive to do anything else, when a simple statement can defuse a lot of irrational popular anger,

Hat tip Pope Benedict XVI?

As a Jew when the torah comes close to me i offen give it a kiss as a sign of love and respect. So if a muslim would do that to the koran i understand it, given the content of the koran i would never kiss it or give it that kind of respect, But if I was a GI in a war zone in a muslim country i would not shoot at it eather unless i wanted upset muslims.

re: #185 Desert Dog

I am sorry, Cognito, I did not know you are a historian, specializing in Second World War generals...Please enlighten me on your theory of how General Patton would handle today's war? My theory is he would not do too good as he would be well over 100 years old (and in a coffin to boot!). However, I think he would not favor kissing ass and would quickly be re-assigned to a desk job or offered retirement before he laid waste to the land between the rivers.

It's got to do with the style of war. Patton fought direct, conventional war. This is counterinsurgency. It's unconventional.

Nothing to do with kissing ass or not, or desk jobs and laying waste to land between river, etc etc etc etc etc. It's to do with winning.

re: #203 Charles

My problem is the over top public spectacle. I think they should have met privately and told the clerics the soldier has been disciplined. Making such a public display of weakness is only going to make things worse in the long run. I'm sure they are delighted that they can make our officers dance in public any time they want. I think only encourages seething.

For shame. The military should have the utmost respect for the book that inspires their enemies to strap on bombs and plant IEDs. Doncha think?

A Kos commenter has transformed the 'soldier' in the Reuters story into 'soldiers.' Individual misbehavior becomes group misbehavior...

re: #150 Ojoe

carnets are those little burgundy colored stones

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAA

re: #223 Killgore Trout

My problem is the over top public spectacle. I think they should have met privately and told the clerics the soldier has been disciplined. Making such a public display of weakness is only going to make things worse in the long run. I'm sure they are delighted that they can make our officers dance in public any time they want. I think only encourages seething.

Well said my atheistic cichlid friend.

I think it would be well to keep in mind that in the last 20 years I am pretty sure that a whole lot more Korans were destroyed by fellow Muslims than all the infidels combined. Kinda like the pot calling the kettle black.

re: #226 debutaunt

that would be GARNETS

re: #203 Charles

Yeah, well, there is that. But don't forget - these people have also seen what the US military can do when it's pissed off, up close.

So true,and that's why this will not be seen as a sign of weakness. They KNOW the American troops aren't a bunch of grovelling wimps. An apology from a coward may not mean a whole lot but an apology from someone you know can kick your a$$ leaves an impression of respect.

re: #181 goddessoftheclassroom

Actually, I was pointing out that the MSM made a bigger stink about the pig's head on a mosque doorstep than the shootings in Seattle.
Says where their sympathies are, doesn't it?

re: #207 buzzsawmonkey

I see your point, but from a "global" perspective "global citizens" all have equivalent "global rights" which are subjected to "global standards".*

*unless such perceived rights are violated by anyone under the auspices of the US or Israel.

re: #219 paxnhymn

no. I've been there. There are many who understand it and think it is the antithesis of islamic tradition.

Exactly!

re: #228 Nevergiveup

I think it would be well to keep in mind that in the last 20 years I am pretty sure that a whole lot more Korans were destroyed by fellow Muslims than all the infidels combined. Kinda like the pot calling the kettle black.

well..you gotta point. In Darfur alone, black moslems are being killed by arabs, and I would imagine those black moslems are not worshipping a Betty Crocker cookbook! and that's only one incidence..

OT, but interesting: Neville Chamberlain is currently listed in Yahoo's "Today's Top Searches"...# 10, but he made the list!

Is he appeasement in carnet?

re: #222 Cognito

I am learning more and more today! You mean Iraq of 2008 is not the same as North Africa and Sicily in 1943 or France in in 1944? All kidding aside, this entire Patton thing is moot. What really matters is what Attila the Hun would do today!

re: #225 jaunte

A Kos commenter has transformed the 'soldier' in the Reuters story into 'soldiers.' Individual misbehavior becomes group misbehavior...

Group misbehavior will very soon become institutional misbehavior. Just watch.

Will they reach "Blame Bush! Impeach!" before the end of the day, or will it be tomorrow?

re: #230 WayDownSouthInBama

An apology from a coward may not mean a whole lot but an apology from someone you know can kick your a$$ leaves an impression of respect.

in WESTERN society...yes, my freind. But not necessarily so in other cultures.

re: #236 Desert Dog

I am learning more and more today! You mean Iraq of 2008 is not the same as North Africa and Sicily in 1943 or France in in 1944? All kidding aside, this entire Patton thing is moot. What really matters is what Attila the Hun would do today!

Since most kids get their history from the movies today, I assume you mean Attila the Hun Hun.

re: #221 yochanan

As a Jew when the torah comes close to me i offen give it a kiss as a sign of love and respect. So if a muslim would do that to the koran i understand it, given the content of the koran i would never kiss it or give it that kind of respect, But if I was a GI in a war zone in a muslim country i would not shoot at it eather unless i wanted upset muslims.

And you can bet your last red cent that the soldier in question knew that before he ever got on off the plane.

re: #223 Killgore Trout

My problem is the over top public spectacle. I think they should have met privately and told the clerics the soldier has been disciplined. Making such a public display of weakness is only going to make things worse in the long run. I'm sure they are delighted that they can make our officers dance in public any time they want. I think only encourages seething.

it was a power play, plain and simple, and we gave up way
more than we should have or needed to.

re: #235 SlartyBartfast

OT, but interesting: Neville Chamberlain is currently listed in Yahoo's "Today's Top Searches"...# 10, but he made the list!

Is he appeasement in carnet?

Bwahahahahahahahahaha!

re: #235 SlartyBartfast

OT, but interesting: Neville Chamberlain is currently listed in Yahoo's "Today's Top Searches"...# 10, but he made the list!

Is he appeasement in carnet?

HEY THERE Slarty, that is a viscous attack on the character of Barack Obama and totally uncalled for! You cannot mention this subject again. Please file it away with certain middle names, certain racist looney ministers and the 57 States! How dare you say those words!

re: #240 Nevergiveup

Since most kids get their history from the movies today, I assume you mean Attila the Hun Hun.

Attila the Carnet

re: #238 Spiny Norman

Will they reach "Blame Bush! Impeach!" before the end of the day, or will it be tomorrow?

"Sura 109" at Kos is already there:
"...people who follow the directions of george w. bush."
"Osama has killed his thousands, and Bush his tens of thousands."

re: #244 Desert Dog

HEY THERE Slarty, that is a viscous attack on the character of Barack Obama and totally uncalled for! You cannot mention this subject again. Please file it away with certain middle names, certain racist looney ministers and the 5759 States! How dare you say those words!

Fixed. Remember, he was not allowed to go to Hawai'i or Alaska!

re: #223 Killgore Trout

Making such a public display of weakness is only going to make things worse in the long run. I'm sure they are delighted that they can make our officers dance in public any time they want. I think only encourages seething

Though I don't agree with you on many other things, I have to agree with you here. (I even went so far as to ding you up on that!)

/Tolerance!

re: #207 buzzsawmonkey

There is no individual liberty in Muslim nations; there is no safeguarding of civil rights. Iraq may come to be a nation which protects civil rights, and thus individual liberty, but if it is the closest Muslim nation to achieving this, it is not there yet.

I agree- they have a long ways to go yet- that is clear. That being said, to think they could modernize in a few short years is expecting too much, in my opinion. It's like expecting a baby who can barely crawl to stand up and run. In the meantime- we must continue to guide them, for if individual liberty is not the answer to islamism, what is?

re: #247 galloping granny

Fixed. Remember, he was not allowed to go to Hawai'i or Alaska!

But he had one more to go so that's 60 states.

re: #247 galloping granny

Fixed. Remember, he was not allowed to go to Hawai'i or Alaska!

or Michigan or Florida

re: #249 buzzsawmonkey

I should have included the sarc tag to my #232.

OT: I saw America perform last night in Richardson, TX. If you ever get a chance to see them, it's a good show. Apparently they never went into retirement and have stayed at it since they initially got together - well 2 out of 3 of them.

I've always wondered about this.

Do we actually know where all of the Qur'ans are printed in this world? Would it be bothersome to the muslims to know that the Qur'an might just be coming off of an infidel's printing press?

re: #246 jaunte

"Sura 109" at Kos is already there:
"...people who follow the directions of george w. bush."
"Osama has killed his thousands, and Bush his tens of thousands."

GAH!
My Gosh, what lunacy.

re: #255 ornery elephant

I've always wondered about this.

Do we actually know where all of the Qur'ans are printed in this world? Would it be bothersome to the muslims to know that the Qur'an might just be coming off of an infidel's printing press?

Probably owned by jews also?

re: #247 galloping granny

Fixed. Remember, he was not allowed to go to Hawai'i or Alaska!

Presidential debates should include geography quizzes.

re: #254 rwmofo

I saw them a few years ago, OK it was back in the 80s. LOL Great concert, Three Dog Night performed also. =)

re: #249 buzzsawmonkey

What are these "global rights?" They do not exist. Certainly the UN, the closest thing to a global government, does not protect them.

Complaints that UN member states are "violating human rights" are attempts to redress, on a piecemeal, individual, unsatisfactory basis, the most blatant violations of individual liberty without addressing the fundamentally despotic nature of the regime which is violating that liberty. It is a euphemistic dodge which allows those engaging in it to feel morally righteous without in any way acknowledging, let alone addressing, the fundamental violation of human dignity by the particular regime.

Here a list of the Keepers of Human Rights. I feel very safe and confident that basic human rights will be delivered by this bunch, don't you?

re: #260 buzzsawmonkey

The Iraqis have made, and continue to make, great progress. I do not in any way mean to belittle that.

I am merely pointing out that basing any goals or progress on the achievement of "human rights" is doomed to failure; the way to success is the recognition that liberty is achieved by safeguarding civil rights, i.e., the administration of an impartial law.

I challenge anyone to name even a single instance where "human rights" are in any way a valid concept if civil rights are truly extant and enforced--or, conversely, anywhere that "human rights" have any meaning in any place where civil rights do not exist.

The UN!

Does Saudi Arabian government own al-Reuters? Or may be Hamas or the mullahs of Iran run al-Reuters... I'd like to know that

re: #245 Desert Dog

Attila the Carnet

Well, he wouldn't have been Attila the Cornet....

re: #258 debutaunt

Presidential debates should include geography quizzes.

I agree. He also apparently does not know that Kansas shares a border with his home state of Illinois and is part of the Chicago media market. He claims that Hillary is better known in Kansas than he is because her home state is Arkansas - two states away.

re: #256 gop_patriot

GAH!
My Gosh, what lunacy.

Obviously Keith Olberman's sock puppet...

BTW, Sura 109 is AL-KAFIROON (THE DISBELIEVERS, ATHEISTS). It's only 6 verses. The commentator probably has it memorized.

re: #263 winston06

Does Saudi Arabian government own al-Reuters? Or may be Hamas or the mullahs of Iran run al-Reuters... I'd like to know that

Reuters was originally founded to get information from Indonesia back to the Netherlands rapidly. (Factoid from book about explosion of Krakatoa.) Who owns it today I do not know, but obviously they have a long history in muslim lands.

re: #250 Sharmuta

I agree- they have a long ways to go yet- that is clear. That being said, to think they could modernize in a few short years is expecting too much, in my opinion. It's like expecting a baby who can barely crawl to stand up and run. In the meantime- we must continue to guide them, for if individual liberty is not the answer to islamism, what is?

Do you ever find yourself really addressing the answer to this question, and then, not liking what your head is saying, just let it go and conclude...

Individual liberty MUST/HAS to be the answer.

/Do we have a Plan B just in case?

re: #259 gop_patriot

I saw them a few years ago, OK it was back in the 80s. LOL Great concert, Three Dog Night performed also. =)