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Seattle Times Editor Edits 'Hitler Not Unreasonable' Post

Sun, May 18, 2008 at 2:39:11 pm PST

Seattle Times editorial writer Bruce Ramsey, the mind behind that ludicrous “blog” piece saying, “Hitler’s demands were not unreasonable,” has been doing a little on-the-sly editing: Bush, and His Use of ‘Appeasement’ | Seattle Times Newspaper Blog.

Ramsey got smacked around pretty badly in the comments for his piece, and rarely have I seen someone deserve it more. We saved his original first three paragraphs: Seattle Times Editor: ‘Hitler’s Demands Were Not Unreasonable’.

Democrats are rebuking President Bush for saying in his speech to the Knesset, here, that to “negotiate with terrorists and radicals” is “appeasement.” The Democrats took it as a slap at Barack Obama. What bothers me is the continual reference to Hitler and his National Socialists, particularly the British and French accommodation at the Munich Conference of 1938.

What Hitler was demanding was not unreasonable. He wanted the German-speaking areas of Europe under German authority. He had just annexed Austria, which was German-speaking, without bloodshed. There were two more small pieces of Germanic territory: the free city of Danzig and the Sudetenland, a border area of what is now the Czech Republic.

We live in an era when you do not change national borders for these sorts of reasons. But in 1938 it was different. Germany’s eastern and western borders had been redrawn 19 years before—and not to its benefit. In the democracies there was some sense of guilt with how Germany had been treated after World War I. Certainly there was a memory of the “Great War.” In 2008, we have entirely forgotten World War I, and how utterly unlike any conception of “The Good War” it was. When the British let Hitler have a slice of Czechoslovakia, they were following their historical wisdom: avoid war. War produces results far more horrible than you expected. War is a bad investment. It is not glorious. Don’t give anyone an excuse to start one.

Here’s what it looks like now; guess what ended up in the bit bucket?

Democrats are rebuking President Bush for saying in his speech to the Knesset, here, that to “negotiate with terrorists and radicals” is “appeasement.” The Democrats took it as a slap at Barack Obama. What bothers me is the continual reference to Hitler and his National Socialists, particularly the British and French accommodation at the Munich Conference of 1938.

The narrative we’re given about Munich is entirely in hindsight. We know what kind of man Hitler was, and that he started World War II in Europe. But in 1938 people knew a lot less. What Hitler was demanding at Munich was not unreasonable as a national claim (though he was making it in a last-minute, unreasonable way.) Germany’s claim was that the areas of Europe that spoke German and thought of themselves as German be under German authority. In September 1938 the principal remaining area was the Sudetenland.

So the British and French let him have it. Their thought was: “Now you have your Greater Germany.” They didn’t want a war. They were not superpowers like the United States is now. They remembered the 1914-1918 war and how they almost lost it.

In a few months, in early 1939, Hitler ordered the invasion of what is now the Czech Republic—that is, territory that was not German. Then it was obvious that a deal with him was worthless—and the British and French did not appease Hitler any more. Thus the lesson of Munich: don’t appease Hitlers.

Down the memory hole!

I’m afraid Ramsey may not be cut out for this blogging thing.

(Hat tip: Ace of Spades.)

186 comments

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Hide comments | Jump to bottom

#1 ethanxxx 5/18/08 2:41:24 pm -1

Who gives a S**T about Seattle?

#2 stevieray 5/18/08 2:41:35 pm 0

I think the memory hole must be all filled up... what was once hidden, now spills out into the daylight.

#3 blue_like_jazz 5/18/08 2:41:55 pm 0

gotcha, you POS! no use hiding... the lizard king SEES ALL!

//bwahahahahaha

#4 wolfie 5/18/08 2:42:04 pm 0

Too late, Ramsey.

#5 Oh no...Sand People! 5/18/08 2:42:16 pm 0

Good ol' revisionist history syndrome.

#6 ironbill 5/18/08 2:42:58 pm 0

Even after the edit, his account of the history leading up to WWII is woefully wrong

#7 Sharmuta 5/18/08 2:43:36 pm 0

I love the smell of back peddling in the afternoon.

#8 song_and_dance_man 5/18/08 2:44:23 pm 0

Ramsey already ate and is now picking his teeth.

#9 Ojoe 5/18/08 2:44:26 pm 2
#10 natemannq 5/18/08 2:44:41 pm 0

I guess Ramsey wanted to be the one Bush was talking about..

You're an appeaser, Bruce. Is that what you want to hear?

#11 loup-garou 5/18/08 2:44:49 pm 1

i hope this gets noted in Winston Smith notebook.

#12 Truck Monkey 5/18/08 2:45:04 pm 0

And he was also very good in making the trains run on time.

/

#13 zombie 5/18/08 2:45:12 pm 9

First he gives his stamp of approval to Hitler's policies, now he gives his stamp of approval to Stalin's policies -- i.e disappearing unwanted facts down the "memory hole."

Is there any genocidal tyrant this guy doesn't like?

#14 Slumbering Behemoth 5/18/08 2:45:31 pm 0

re: #1 ethanxxx

Who gives a S**T about Seattle?

Americans.

#15 solomonpanting 5/18/08 2:45:44 pm 3

Well, now in hindsight we can see that appeasement was wrong. If "it was obvious that a deal with him [Hitler] was worthless", isn't the concept still obvious now? Isn't that the lesson Bush is conveying?

#16 Sharmuta 5/18/08 2:45:46 pm 1
Thus the lesson of Munich: don’t appease Hitlers.

Tell that to obama, pal.

#17 stevieray 5/18/08 2:45:59 pm 0

The sad part is, even with his revisions, the piece still doesn't support his intended position -- that appeasement ain't bad and it deserves another chance.

#18 MandyManners 5/18/08 2:46:05 pm 0
#19 ted 5/18/08 2:46:59 pm 0

Ha-ha-ha....

#20 ironbill 5/18/08 2:47:04 pm 4

Ramsey, you're a moron. Churchill was screaming about the menace Hitler was in the early 30s'.

We knew and were fully aware what his intentions were.

Funny thing about the Lefties back in the 30s'. They thought Ribbentrop/Molotov was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Hitler was o.k. till he turned on ole' Joe.

[deleted] 5/18/08 2:47:31 pm 2
#22 shibumi 5/18/08 2:47:33 pm 0
What Hitler was demanding was not unreasonable. He wanted the German-speaking areas of Europe under German authority.

So...does that mean that BushHitler can annex Great Britain, Australia and any other nation in the West that speaks English? If so, I call a Caribbean Island, one of the nice ones.

As for Ramsey, someone should tell him you edit before you publish something not after.

#23 natemannq 5/18/08 2:48:07 pm 2

Anytime you use the word "But" after acknowledging Hitler was a bad guy, you're an appeaser..

Congrats, Bruce... You didn't even take "but" out of your "edited" piece.

#24 Mich-again 5/18/08 2:49:26 pm 0

Take away his blog and give him an Etch a Sketch.

#25 Ojoe 5/18/08 2:49:34 pm 4

By the way Ramsey, Hitler annexed Austria after killing Dolfus.

Go back and revise some more.

#26 natemannq 5/18/08 2:49:41 pm 0

re: #20 ironbill

Quit trying to shatter Brucie's paradigm. As long as he portrays Hitler as someone whose intentions the world did not know, the longer he can replicate that paradigm with the likes of Madmandinejad.

#27 pegcity 5/18/08 2:49:41 pm 0

i can't even bother to read anything from the left anymore, the arguments made would past muster with a 6 year old

#28 wolfie 5/18/08 2:50:02 pm 5

Okay, Ramsey.
You can cut the Neville Chamberlains a little slack by saying they didn't realize Hitler's demands were insatiable. Fine.
What has that got to do with the demands of the Palis? We have a record of Palistinian behavior going back many decades to prove they will not be satisfied until Israel is destroyed. They themselves shout it from the rooftops.
So the upshot is that those who want to appease Hamas are even stupider and more deluded than the Munich boys.
So how does this help Ramsey's side?!

#29 DesertSage 5/18/08 2:50:40 pm 2

So...all we have to do is give the Palestinians the Sudetenland and there will be peace in our time?

Is that what he's trying to say?

#30 Ojoe 5/18/08 2:51:49 pm 0

re: #25 Ojoe

"Dollfuss" is the correct spelling

PIMF

#31 song_and_dance_man 5/18/08 2:52:24 pm 0

A simple "I was wrong" from Ramsey would be appropriate instead of more of the same with different words.

#32 Sharmuta 5/18/08 2:52:26 pm 2
In order to get anywhere, each side has to listen to the other. To continually bring up Hitler, the Nazis, the Munich Conference and “appeasement,” is to try to prolong the stalemate.

So- we shouldn't appease hitlers unless there is a prolonged stalemate?

/Tosses Munich lesson out window.

Basically- we can't call anyone "hitler" anymore- is that his point? Great- can we start with the left not calling President Bush "hitler" anymore? That would be great.

#33 wolfie 5/18/08 2:52:55 pm 0

re: #29 DesertSage

So...all we have to do is give the Palestinians the Sudetenland and there will be peace in our time?

Is that what he's trying to say?

That's what it sounds like to me!

#34 ironbill 5/18/08 2:53:59 pm 2

re: #26 natemannq

I see your point.

Ackma-dinner-jacket never said he would "wipe Israel off the face of the earth."

The Lefty motto should be: If a tree falls in the woods, I can't hear a sixteen year old girl being hung in a public square for being the victim of a rape.

#35 Ojoe 5/18/08 2:54:07 pm 2

re: #31 song_and_dance_man

But he probably does not think he is wrong in his main point at all.

#36 MandyManners 5/18/08 2:55:17 pm 0

Good thinking on keeping that entry, Charles. You musta' known he'd change it.

#37 Abu Boo Boo 5/18/08 2:55:35 pm 0

The whole "we should negotiate" argument is blown apart by the Stalin-Hitler pact.

The Soviets did talk to Hitler. They did negotiate with him. They did reach a "non-aggression" pact.

And then Hitler unleashed a savage attack on the USSR.

The only people fooled by the Stalin-Hitler pact were the Russians.

BTW, the Soviets also helped Hitler come to power by instructing German communists not to form a united front with social democrats against Hitler and the Nazis.

Ramsey is simply ignorant of history.

#38 Ojoe 5/18/08 2:55:39 pm 0

re: #34 ironbill

Or a teenage boy whipped to death for being caught eating during the day during ramadan:

I cannot forget this

#39 song_and_dance_man 5/18/08 2:56:36 pm 0

Read the comments on his blog. He got more than smacked around; he got pummeled.

#40 Ojoe 5/18/08 2:56:41 pm 0

*Spit*

#41 Render 5/18/08 2:57:25 pm 4

Like MSNBC, he never did let my comment out of "moderation."

THE
WORLD
WONDERS,
R

#42 natemannq 5/18/08 2:57:27 pm 0

re: #34 ironbill


What's scary is Brucie's relationship with his own father.. Brucie's father had the opportunity to communicate FIRSTHAND the atrocities hitler committed (I'm assuming Brucie's father was alive then)...

...but he didn't...

Isn't it all clear now? Brucie didn't have a good relationship with his father...

#43 natemannq 5/18/08 2:57:59 pm 0

Brucie doesn't feel loved.

#44 MandyManners 5/18/08 2:58:38 pm 0

re: #41 Render

Like MSNBC, he never did let my comment out of "moderation."

THE
WORLD
WONDERS,
R

What did you write?

#45 natemannq 5/18/08 2:58:55 pm 0

re: #38 Ojoe

What happens if you eat Raman noodles on Ramadan?

#46 Oh no...Sand People! 5/18/08 2:59:10 pm 1

Revisionist history should be closer to a jailable offense over cartoons. However, he still lives in a country where he is free to be an idiot.

#47 jaunte 5/18/08 2:59:23 pm 0

re: #32 Sharmuta

I don't think Bruce Ramsey is listening to much of what the other side has been saying. I'd advise him to do them the respect of taking them seriously, and stop pretending their rhetoric is 'mere' rhetoric.

#48 Killian Bundy 5/18/08 2:59:26 pm 0

re: #36 MandyManners

Good thinking on keeping that entry, Charles. You musta' known he'd change it.

/it was part of an LGF post on Friday, not particularly hard to find

#49 Ojoe 5/18/08 2:59:33 pm 0

"With every mistake we must surely be learning"

— George Harrison

from an appropriate song in this context

#50 ironbill 5/18/08 2:59:49 pm 0

re: #38 Ojoe

Excellent example.

To Ramsey and his ilk this is an example of our cultural chauvinism. We should talk to these people so as we can understand where they're coming from. The reality of the child, a real live viable human with a soul and spirit, never enters into the equation.

Talk is cheap Mr. Ramsey.

#51 Luigi 5/18/08 2:59:57 pm 0

Maybe the people we're dying for in Afghanistan aren't so reasonable either.

[Link: gatewaypundit.blogspot.com...]

#52 song_and_dance_man 5/18/08 3:00:05 pm 0

re: #35 Ojoe

Yeah, you're probably right. He most likely regrets the initial two paragraghs weren't nuanced enough, hence the edit. But it still says the same thing, only in a different way.

What a male organ.

#53 Ojoe 5/18/08 3:00:14 pm 0

re: #45 natemannq

Ding Dong

Rama dama ding dong

You eat a ding dong for dessert

#54 ethanxxx 5/18/08 3:00:27 pm 2

re: #31 song_and_dance_man

A simple "I was wrong" from Ramsey would be appropriate instead of more of the same with different words.

If he was capable of admitting "He was wrong", he wouldn't be a Left wing progressive useful idiot. I've noticed over the years that these children are incapable of admitting error. That's one of the reasons that I keep them as far away from me and my love ones as possible. My father taught me that one of the best things a person can do to improve their life, is to discover and admit that they were wrong.

#55 JHW 5/18/08 3:00:38 pm 0

Ramsey is affiliated with this outfit Liberty Foundation

Looks like he considers himself a Libertarian, here's an article of his on R*N P*ul Ron Pa*l in the Spotlight

#56 MandyManners 5/18/08 3:00:41 pm 0

re: #48 Killian Bundy

/it was part of an LGF post on Friday, not particularly hard to find

Duh. I even posted on that one. Where's my gray matter?

#57 MandyManners 5/18/08 3:01:43 pm 2

re: #55 JHW

Ramsey is affiliated with this outfit Liberty Foundation

Looks like he considers himself a Libertarian, here's an article of his on R*N P*ul Ron Pa*l in the Spotlight

The stupid is strong with that man.

#58 song_and_dance_man 5/18/08 3:03:18 pm 0

re: #54 ethanxxx

My father taught me that one of the best things a person can do to improve their life, is to discover and admit that they were wrong.

Telling the truth is like medicine for our bones.

#59 Ojoe 5/18/08 3:03:22 pm 0

re: #50 ironbill

Our culture is superior.

#60 paxnhymn 5/18/08 3:03:57 pm 0

re: #45 natemannq

What happens if you eat Raman noodles on Ramadan?

well...if you eat em all nite like hadji does during rumamdumb you get gorged enough to "fast" all day, really making it a usurped fast, just like the rest of the religions dogma..

#61 rightymouse 5/18/08 3:04:01 pm 0

re: #38 Ojoe

Or a teenage boy whipped to death for being caught eating during the day during ramadan:

I cannot forget this

One of my dear friends sent me pics of gays being hanged in Iran. My friend, who is gay, is a Dem. Not really liberal in every point, but he hates Hillary and Bush so much, that he only looks through those filters when he sees Obama, who he believes is his only 'choice' in this election. As a consequence, he is on the "negotiating", "what's wrong with talking" meme these days.

#62 pat 5/18/08 3:05:01 pm 0

This twit reiterated every arguement aginst appeasement and thought they bolstered his (non) case. Global Warmist!

/warming causes cooling

#63 ironbill 5/18/08 3:05:09 pm 0

re: #42 natemannq

What's scary is that this fool, an editor at a major daily newspaper, is so frickin stupid about basic 20th century history.

In addition, he then tries to revise his own account, post facto.

After school newspaper club kids are better editors.

#64 Ojoe 5/18/08 3:05:40 pm 0

re: #61 rightymouse

At least the Mullahs are far from your friend, and between them are the US Marines.

#65 song_and_dance_man 5/18/08 3:07:12 pm 0

re: #61 rightymouse

I got a great one liner for that, but I better not.

#66 Ojoe 5/18/08 3:09:04 pm 0

BBL

#67 paxnhymn 5/18/08 3:10:47 pm 0

re: #61 rightymouse

ask him if he's willing to openly procalim his homosexuality on Iranian Tv then ask to "talk" to dinnerjacket...in this case the "harm" in talking is that it will be hard to do with a noose around his neck!

#68 wolfie 5/18/08 3:10:54 pm 0

re: #61 rightymouse

I have given copies of Bruce Bawer's While Europe Slept to 3 different gay friends. One, I know, read it and has moved slightly to the right. He is a die-hard liberal but at least a little worried about Obama now.
We have to do our best to share information, that's all. Usually the seed will not even sprout, but sometimes it will.
What more can we do?

#69 rightymouse 5/18/08 3:11:10 pm 0

re: #64 Ojoe

At least the Mullahs are far from your friend, and between them are the US Marines.

You got that straight.

My friend is not stupid, just misguided in the filters he uses for many of his positions. He watches CNN, for crying out loud. lol!

#70 rightymouse 5/18/08 3:11:49 pm 0

re: #65 song_and_dance_man

I got a great one liner for that, but I better not.


Oh, go ahead.

[deleted] 5/18/08 3:12:18 pm 0
#72 paxnhymn 5/18/08 3:13:18 pm 0

re: #70 rightymouse

Oh, go ahead.

yeas, please. We all need a hearty laugh as Rome(substitute Rome for the Western city of your choice) burns...

#73 ethanxxx 5/18/08 3:13:37 pm 0

re: #38 Ojoe

Or a teenage boy whipped to death for being caught eating during the day during ramadan:

I cannot forget this

People's exhibit 180,438, as to why the abatement of this evil cult should be priority number one of any US president.

#74 Glaucon 5/18/08 3:13:54 pm 5

His argument about the reasonableness of Germany's claim to the Sudetenland is not accurate. If fact, it parrots the Nazi propaganda of the time.

Sudeten Germans were not in any way oppressed, and the fact is that Nazi infiltrators were deliberately instigating trouble and inciting the Sudeten Germans to revolt against the Czechs.

Plus, it was well understood that the transfer of the Sudeten territory was a death-knell for the Republic of Czechoslovakia. The Sudeten territory included all of Czechoslovakia's fortresses and border defenses, as well as much of its long-established arms industries. Once Czech troops were ordered to evacuate the Sudetenland, Czechoslovakia was virtually defenseless. And that explains why they subsequently surrendered without a fight.

The French, if not the British except for Churchill, understood at the time that they had done something shameful at Munich. When a huge crowd gathered at the airport in Paris to greet PM Daladier, he commented to his aides, "Ces gens sont foux," These people are crazy.

Journalists are tiresome know-nothings.

#75 Bob in Breckenridge 5/18/08 3:14:08 pm 1

re: #13 zombie

First he gives his stamp of approval to Hitler's policies, now he gives his stamp of approval to Stalin's policies -- i.e disappearing unwanted facts down the "memory hole."

Is there any genocidal tyrant this guy doesn't like?

/GWB

[deleted] 5/18/08 3:14:56 pm 0
#77 wolfie 5/18/08 3:15:12 pm 0

re: #71 savage_nation

I heard there are no gays in Iran. Is Dinnerjacket right?

Sure! heh

Well, he hopes he can eliminate homosexuality...........
kinda like the way the USSR eliminated Down's Syndrome.

#78 song_and_dance_man 5/18/08 3:16:45 pm 0

re: #61 rightymouse

My friend, who is gay, is a Dem. Not really liberal in every point, but he hates Hillary and Bush...

Don't all gays hate Bush?

#79 The Other Les 5/18/08 3:16:46 pm 0

re: #57 MandyManners

The stupid is strong with that man.

The Farce is with him.

#80 ironbill 5/18/08 3:17:00 pm 0

re: #74 Glaucon

Bravo. Well done.

#81 Bob in Breckenridge 5/18/08 3:17:49 pm 0

re: #24 Mich-again

Take away his blog and give him an Etch a Sketch and a history book.

Fixed.

#82 Desert Dog 5/18/08 3:18:08 pm 0

re: #71 savage_nation

I heard there are no gays in Iran. Is Dinnerjacket right?

I hear there is a surplus of assholes though......if you know what I mean

#83 Bob in Breckenridge 5/18/08 3:18:35 pm 0

re: #76 savage_nation

HI Bob

Hey savage, how ya been?

#84 ethanxxx 5/18/08 3:18:35 pm 0

re: #74 Glaucon

His argument about the reasonableness of Germany's claim to the Sudetenland is not accurate. If fact, it parrots the Nazi propaganda of the time.

Sudeten Germans were not in any way oppressed, and the fact is that Nazi infiltrators were deliberately instigating trouble and inciting the Sudeten Germans to revolt against the Czechs.

Plus, it was well understood that the transfer of the Sudeten territory was a death-knell for the Republic of Czechoslovakia. The Sudeten territory included all of Czechoslovakia's fortresses and border defenses, as well as much of its long-established arms industries. Once Czech troops were ordered to evacuate the Sudetenland, Czechoslovakia was virtually defenseless. And that explains why they subsequently surrendered without a fight.

The French, if not the British except for Churchill, understood at the time that they had done something shameful at Munich. When a huge crowd gathered at the airport in Paris to greet PM Daladier, he commented to his aides, "Ces gens sont foux," These people are crazy.

Journalists are tiresome know-nothings.

Ya'... What he said. Well put my friend.

#85 Billy Hank 5/18/08 3:18:37 pm 4

Lots of people had Hitler pegged from 1932 on. Bothering to read "Mein Kampf" would have given you the road map. Totalitarians generally tell their populace exactly what they are planning to do in order to garner support. Comfortingly, Dinnerjacket sticks to that script. Anyone who has listened knows what he is planning to do. Ignoring that clumps you with Chamberlain and a host of other sad sack chumps.

You can offer Dracula all the carrot juice in the world, but come sundown, there is only one thing he wants.

[deleted] 5/18/08 3:19:11 pm 0
#87 Desert Dog 5/18/08 3:19:17 pm 0

Those darn Nazis weren't too bad, you know. But, GWB, he is El Diablo!

#88 Pater Coop 5/18/08 3:19:20 pm 2

Ramsey conveniently left out the 2 most nefarious goals in Hitler's 3-step plan:

1. Annex all territories inhabited by Germans.
2. Seize western Russia; eradicate/ enslave Slav population; settle Germans in new territory.
3.