Remove him from office now

Old news in new packaging. Nothing to get excited over.

Muslim turkey used to have good ties with Israel.....before it went from secular to Islamist.

Syria. They seem trustworthy.

That's not peace, it's concession.

re: #3 mean Gene

Muslim turkey used to have good ties with Israel.....before it went from secular to Islamist.

The Turkish Military still has ties to Israel.

Repeat after me:
"Spoils of war, spoils of war, spoils of war."

/Now - think again

Peace with Syria would require Israel to withdraw from the Golan Heights

... and for every existing and future construction in Israel to have a great big bullseye painted on it.

Our Israeli friends had best be sprucing up their lifeboats. Omert is going to sell them right straight down the highway to hell before they manage to get rid of him.

Olmert can and will write checks his successor will have to honor.

The selfishness of Israeli politicians is beyond belief. Until there is electoral reform, making politicians directly responsible to constituents who can boot them from office if they go against their wishes, or lie, or steal, we will continue to see them running roughshod over the principles of representative government - to Israel's danger.

/comment left at the JPOST

israel should not give up even one more grain of sand.

I like Turkey - every November we cook up a big one with stuffing, mashed 'taters and gravy, and a lot of yummy veggies.

Then we watch the heck out of football...

So, let's review the proposed deal:

Syria gets an incredibly valuable strategic piece of land, which it lost the last time it tried to wipe Israel off the map.

Israel gets a piece of paper, grudgingly acknowledging its "right to exist".

What a bargain.

OT (totally) but funny....

Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer was egged by a protester during a speech he gave at a Hungarian University. As this video shows, the protester rose to his feet to challenge Microsoft for stealing billions in Hungarian taxpayer money, then started hurling eggs at Ballmer, who was forced to take cover behind a desk.

re: #13 Occasional Reader

So, let's review the proposed deal:

Syria gets an incredibly valuable strategic piece of land, which it lost the last time it tried to wipe Israel off the map.

Israel gets a piece of paper, grudgingly acknowledging its "right to exist".

What a bargain.

It worked so well with Egypt, after all.

re: #9 galloping granny

Our Israeli friends had best be sprucing up their lifeboats. Omert is going to sell them right straight down the highway to hell before they manage to get rid of him.

Everybody calm down. Nothing new here. The only people who should be upset are the environmentalists. It's such a waste of paper and ink.

Utter, raving insanity. I was just there in December. The Golan is historically Jewish territory, filled with the ruins of Talmudic villages. It is also possible to view all of Northern Israel from there. The Syrians and their friends can just go back to shooting Israelis in the Jordan valley as they did before 1967, but now with higher tech and more precision. In return for WHAT? Assad's promises on a piece of paper?

re: #13 Occasional Reader

So, let's review the proposed deal:

Syria gets an incredibly valuable strategic piece of land, which it lost the last time it tried to wipe Israel off the map.

Israel gets a piece of paper, grudgingly acknowledging its "right to exist".

What a bargain.

Will the paper promise "Peace In Out Time"?

/Neville?

I'm sure obama will see this as a sign he can be more nuanced with syria now too.

re: #13 Occasional Reader

So, let's review the proposed deal:

Syria gets an incredibly valuable strategic piece of land, which it lost the last time it tried to wipe Israel off the map.

Israel gets a piece of paper, grudgingly acknowledging its "right to exist".

What a bargain.

And all the small print isn't worth scrutinizing.

re: #14 Yankee Division Son

OT (totally) but funny....

Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer was egged by a protester during a speech he gave at a Hungarian University. As this video shows, the protester rose to his feet to challenge Microsoft for stealing billions in Hungarian taxpayer money, then started hurling eggs at Ballmer, who was forced to take cover behind a desk.

Usually they wait until this part of a Ballmer speech to throw the eggs.

That just doesn't sit right with me...

But on a side note, that tagline conjured up the most bizarre image in my head, reminiscient of the "Cone of Silence" from "Get Smart", instead having two people with turkeys on their heads.

Too much scotch.

Of note:

Some high official of the U.S.A. just went there, and he said,

"I want this".

the U.S.A. is now ruled by an evil chicken shit two party evil money cult that will sell out "We the People" and the Jews.

"delete" the sign off part.

re: #18 CIA Reject

OUR Time

PIMF!

Turkey did not let the might US Military crush Iraq from the north, when we could have used their help.

Turkey, get stuffed.

Plus Turkey keeps attacking northern Iraq, causing the US problems.

Lousy ally, Turkey--tofu in my book.

Forgive me if, in view of what just happened in Lebanon, I find these talks hugely dispiriting.
It will not lead to peace, it will be the introduction to the Final Act for Israel.

Unless ...
Unless this is an elaborate smokescreen, behind which other preparations are pursued with all vigour.
I'd love to think so, but ...

Oh - and top of the morning/afternoon to the Lizard Nation!

Peace with Syria would require Israel to withdraw from the Golan Heights

Israel already has peace with Syria, just not on a piece of paper.

I have a very bad feeling about this. Hopefully, Olmert will get nailed in the corruption scandal and deposed before he can do more damage. What a fuckhead.

Perhaps Olmert can insist on Hizballah monitoring the agreement. I mean, why the hell not? Makes as much sense as anything else he's been doing.

re: #28 Globular Cluster

I have a very bad feeling about this. Hopefully, Olmert will get nailed in the corruption scandal and deposed before he can do more damage. What a fuckhead.

I admit I've not kept up with that so pardon my ignorance but, how soon could he be ousted over this?

This deal has been on the table for decades.
And for decades it was rejected by Syria.
The minority Alawite Assad regime needs Israel. It provides the pre-text, the legitimacy, for it to remain in power.

re: #13 Occasional Reader

So, let's review the proposed deal:

Syria gets an incredibly valuable strategic piece of land, which it lost the last time it tried to wipe Israel off the map.

Israel gets a piece of paper, grudgingly acknowledging its "right to exist".

What a bargain.

Fact quibble:

Israel captured the Golan in 1967, when Syria tried to wipe it from the map.

Syria tried again to wipe Israel from the map in 1973 - attacking Israel on the holiest day in the Jewish calendar - Yom Kippur. By the end of that war, Israel could have taken Damascus, but chose only to buzz the capital instead.

As for the rest, Israel would be getting promises by Syria not to support Hamas, Hizbullah, and not engage in terrorism against Israel.

Yeah, I'm sure I'll buy into that. /

I always and instantly thought that Bush's appeasement comments were about Olmert, not Obama.

re: #25 alegrias

Turkey did not let the might US Military crush Iraq from the north, when we could have used their help.

Turkey, get stuffed.

Plus Turkey keeps attacking northern Iraq, causing the US problems.

Lousy ally, Turkey--tofu in my book.

Some of the recent actions of Turkey have certainly been troubling. A SECULAR Turkey has always been a bulwark between the Muslim Middle East and Europe. The rise of a NON-SECULAR Government in Turkey is an ominous development. One way beyond the grasp of a neophyte like Obama.

How do the majority of Israelis feel about this?

In my experience people in Israel are often less alarmed by these moves than people outside Israel. That said, I don't know what the radio trottoir has to say about the Golan Heights in particular.

Anyone know?

re: #33 dm60462

I always and instantly thought that Bush's appeasement comments were about Olmert, not Obama.

They applied to anyone who appeases, regardless of what country they claim to represent. That means it was just as applicable to Carter as it was Olmert or Obama.

re: #32 lawhawk

Fact quibble:

I was being nuanced. You're too bitter to appreciate my evolving position on the facts.

Can anyone suggest a good, concise, history book about Israel?
(I already have a Bible)
:)

re: #35 Cognito

radio trottoir?

re: #35 Cognito

The last time that this issue got serious (back in Summer of 1993 when I visited), the country had banners flying throughout the country saying I am with the Golan. (Ha'am al ha Golan). The closer you got to the Golan, the more signs.

I think Carl or some of the other Israelis could report on this.

re: #37 Occasional Reader

I was being nuanced. You're too bitter to appreciate my evolving position on the facts.

Lemme get back to eating my arugula and clinging to my 57 flavors of waffles.

Interestingly enough I just finished reading an article on the 1973 war. It was complete with maps and I am looking at one now. If they give this back, Israel will never have any kind of peace in our time. The Golan heights are just one big downhill run for Syria (or anyone else) to attack Israel in the north. Israel would have to pull everything back behind the Sea of Galilee, giving up huge amounts of indefensible territory.

Big time mistake.

I have a real bad feeling about this /obi wan lawhawk

re: #40 lawhawk

The last time that this issue got serious (back in Summer of 1993 when I visited), the country had banners flying throughout the country saying I am with the Golan. (Ha'am al ha Golan). The closer you got to the Golan, the more signs.

I think Carl or some of the other Israelis could report on this.

Interesting. I hope some of our friends there sign on and add their thoughts on the developments. (Or rumors of, at least.)

re: #27 Alouette

Israel already has peace with Syria, just not on a piece of paper.

The absence of open warfare does not mean peace. I doubt giving back the Golan Heights will make Syria quit supporting Hamas and Hezballah. I know this is one of those recurring issues that crops up every few months, but it is still a bad idea every time.

re: #29 Occasional Reader

Perhaps Olmert can insist on Jimmy "Hizballah" Carter monitoring the agreement. I mean, why the hell not? Makes as much sense as anything else he's been doing.

edited

Naturally Syria wants the Golan heights back. France wanted Alsatz und Lothregen back. Then, Germany wanted Alsace and Lorraine back. And back and forth those border provinces went.

Peace requires not that the side with the better claim to the land get it, but that both sides value peace more than the province.

Here's an interesting thought. Suppose Israel were to lease the Golan heights for 100 years, with a promise to return it at the end of that time?
China bided her time and got Hong Kong as per agreement. Panama got the Canal Zone back. These sorts of deals have worked before.

Syria would have its diplomatic victory. Israel would have the defensive use of the terrain for a century.

After 100 years, advancing military technology will have made this sort of "high ground" less relevant. Warfare is already deadly enough that advanced nations dare not fight all-out. A century from now, that state of affairs will have settled over the Middle East too.

(Assuming Jerusalem, Damascus, Tehran, Tel Aviv, and Mecca still stand.)

OT

If the "crab cake" unSenators H-2B visa deal stays in the Iraq war bill and it passes,

by 2011,,,, they will allow in 400,000 per year, then those get to let in family,,, 2,000,000

They sell you out behind your backs.

[Link: www.numbersusa.com...]

re: #30 MandyManners

I admit I've not kept up with that so pardon my ignorance but, how soon could he be ousted over this?

1-2 months is what I've heard. 50% chance of conviction. All speculation.

re: #44 Cognito

Interesting. I hope some of our friends there sign on and add their thoughts on the developments. (Or rumors of, at least.)

This is nothing more than old news being given another run around the block. It is nothing to get excited about. Sentiment in Israel is usually 50-50 on this issue, but it has not really ever gotten specific enough to be accurately recorded.

re: #20 debutaunt

And all the small print isn't worth scrutinizing.

"It's our standard agreement."

It amazes me that just as Bush gives a speech in the Knesset saying we should not negotiate with terrorists and rogue regimes, Olmert blithely ignores Bush and negotiates with Syria. Now Obama can claim that even Israel negotiates and meets with dictators.

Olmert is the biggest tone-deaf fucktard that ever lived in Israel. Bush practically gave him the green light not to appease Syria. He is under no pressure to negotiate. And here we are.

Chalk one up for Obama.

re: #40 lawhawk

Here's Carl's insight listed under 'breaking news':

[Link: israelmatzav.blogspot.com...]

re: #52 Globular Cluster

It amazes me that just as Bush gives a speech in the Knesset saying we should not negotiate with terrorists and rogue regimes, Olmert blithely ignores Bush and negotiates with Syria. Now Obama can claim that even Israel negotiates and meets with dictators.

Olmert is the biggest tone-deaf fucktard that ever lived in Israel. Bush practically gave him the green light not to appease Syria. He is under no pressure to negotiate. And here we are.

Chalk one up for Obama.

His days are numbered.

After all, withdrawal worked so well in Gaza. Why not pull out of the Golan too?

re: #38 bosforus
I would be interested in that too. I don't have the time to study what a thorough history would require, but one good book I could handle.

Only in the world left wing diplomacy does leaving the natural invasion route into your country wide open guarantee peace, any freshly minted 2nd lieutenant knows what a f**king dumb idea that is.

re: #55 Iron Fist

After all, withdrawal worked so well in Gaza. Why not pull out of the Golan too?

Yes, let's just forget about

1) The strategic value of Mt. Hermon
2) The strategic value of the Golan Heights
3) The strategic value of the buffer zone
4) The vineyards
5) The ski slopes

What happened to Olmert promising to resign if he was indicted for fraud? Can't that indictment come soon enough !?! It is time for him to go-- The Golan issue is a diversion for Olmert, like the Balkan issue was for Clinton during the Lewinsky era.

Is Nancy Pelosi the Turkey?

re: #49 Globular Cluster

1-2 months is what I've heard. 50% chance of conviction. All speculation.

Before trial he'd be booted out, so the 50/50 chance of conviction is not the serious issue. Right?

re: #56 UFO TOFU

I would be interested in that too. I don't have the time to study what a thorough history would require, but one good book I could handle.

And I'm getting quite tired of looking for reliable information on the internet.

re: #58 buzzsawmonkey

Yes, let's just forget about

1) The strategic value of Mt. Hermon
2) The strategic value of the Golan Heights
3) The strategic value of the buffer zone
4) The vineyards
5) The ski slopes

And the vineyards. And the winery tour. It's worthy to be listed twice.

re: #61 MandyManners

I want 100 % conviction for Olmert and 20 years imprisonment for all the awful things he's done to his country.

Good Morning Lizards! It's rather nice in the Very Far Western Suburbs of Chicagoland this day.

How are all of you and what are we talking about (assuming we are somewhat OT by now).

re: #38 bosforus

Can anyone suggest a good, concise, history book about Israel?
(I already have a Bible)
:)

I don't know how much more concise you can get than that...

re: #62 bosforus

And I'm getting quite tired of looking for reliable information on the internet.

I will look thru my collection and get back to you on that one.

The Golan is too beautiful to be exchanged for peace on a piece of toilet paper.

re: #52 Globular Cluster

It's naive and reckless to engage an enemy in talks when the enemies only major position is to seek a way to painlessly weaken or eliminate your ability to fight.

Countries like Syria and Iran know that they cannot win overt conflicts to gain their goals. However, they also know that with the open assistance of the hard left, the side of appeasement, they can promise the world, deliver nothing, and gain their goals at a far less cost in their treasure.

re: #38 bosforus

Can anyone suggest a good, concise, history book about Israel?
(I already have a Bible)
:)

The Case for Israel

re: #64 loggiedog

I want 100 % conviction for Olmert and 20 years imprisonment for all the awful things he's done to his country.

To me, the important thing is to get him out of office.

re: #52 Globular Cluster

It amazes me that just as Bush gives a speech in the Knesset saying we should not negotiate with terrorists and rogue regimes, Olmert blithely ignores Bush and negotiates with Syria. Now Obama can claim that even Israel negotiates and meets with dictators.

Olmert is the biggest tone-deaf fucktard that ever lived in Israel. Bush practically gave him the green light not to appease Syria. He is under no pressure to negotiate. And here we are.

Chalk one up for Obama.

Olmert had been negotiating with Syria for months before Bush made that statement - they only went public today.

Obama can claim that Israel negotiates and meets with dictators, but what choice do they have when all their neighbors with whom they do not have a peace deal are dictatorships or regimes ripe for takeover by same? And sitting down with dictators and engaging in talks with conditions set out ahead of time - like demanding end of support for Hamas and Hizbullah - are the kinds of preconditions that Obama wouldn't even consider.

Israel should just wait for Syria to implode, and then make peace--maybe--with the successor regime.

Oops. Work called. Later, Lizards!

One could only hope that this is a ruse to get the U.N. 'peace-keepers' out of the way. But that would be too strategic of a move for Olmert. If B. Netanyahu were in charge it would make sense. The last thing Israel needs is to run over some Elbonian regular on it's way to Damascus.

Sidenote: I really love when I google map Golan Heights it comes back with Golan Heights, SYRIA. Apparently they've already held their negotiations. /sarc

re: #58 buzzsawmonkey

Yes, let's just forget about

1) The strategic value of Mt. Hermon
2) The strategic value of the Golan Heights
3) The strategic value of the buffer zone
4) The vineyards
5) The ski slopes

And most importantly - the water.

The Golan is the headwaters to the Kinneret and Jordan River. Much of Israel depends on that water for its drinking supply and agriculture.

re: #68 loggiedog

The Golan is too beautiful to be exchanged for peace on a piece of toilet paper.

I spent 3-4 months as a volunteer on a Kibbutz way up north just below the Golan. AH the memories!

re: #38 bosforus

Can anyone suggest a good, concise, history book about Israel?
(I already have a Bible)
:)

Descriptive Geography and Brief Historical Sketch of Palestine

Israel History Books

re: #38 bosforus

Can anyone suggest a good, concise, history book about Israel?
(I already have a Bible)
:)

That's just about all you need. Josephus is pretty good too.

If Olmert really go through this unthinkable action...he will find that it will not help Israel at all soon enough but makes the situation much worse...

re: #47 lostlakehiker

After 100 years, advancing military technology will have made this sort of "high ground" less relevant. Warfare is already deadly enough that advanced nations dare not fight all-out. A century from now, that state of affairs will have settled over the Middle East too.
why would you be so bold to think a hundred years would make any difference when things have been the same way in the ME (predating Israel, they just used to hate each other) for thousands of years?

That's what the tribal mindset is all about...

re: #70 Neo Con since 9-11
That site lists a book The Case Against Israel. Have you read that?

re: #35 Cognito

How do the majority of Israelis feel about this?

In my experience people in Israel are often less alarmed by these moves than people outside Israel. That said, I don't know what the radio trottoir has to say about the Golan Heights in particular.

Anyone know?

I can ask my friends in Jerusalem.

There is no doubt, this has nothing to do with peace.

Obviously.

This is meant as nothing more than a validation of the Obama declaration of talks.

The only thing Iran needs is time. They have players in the U.N. who never get serious enough for sanctions that will force a secular internal revolution.

Syria, by dragging their feet, will play right into the mindset for many Americans who think somehow, gentleman's diplomacy will somehow save the day.

Appearances are everything.

Our speaker met with a regime who has openly assassinated freely elected leaders in Lebanon, ergo, the Democrats as a party throwing the Lebanese yearning for what have under the bus.

Right now, we are in the 4th quarter.

There are no time-outs left. We're at the 2 minute mark. We are down by 4.

It's 4th down, ball is on the 12, and we can either throw to the sideline at the 2, stop the clock, hope for another set of downs, and have 4 more chances at a touch-down. We can try for 6, and have the game in the bag, or game over.

Nonetheless, no good plays are left, moreover, the clock is running out.

re: #70 Neo Con since 9-11

Speaking on books about Israel. Anyone have an opinion on the fiction of Herman Wouk --specifically The Hope and The Glory?

I read The Hope and thoroughly enjoyed it, but have no clue as to it's historical accuracy.

re: #83 psaturn

I can ask my friends in Jerusalem.

My friends in the Golan have been concerned for some time- this would be giving up their home.

re: #38 bosforus

This isn't a general history, but if you want to read specifically about the Yom Kippur war of 1973, check out:

No Victor, No Vanquished : the Yom Kippur War by Edgar O'Ballance

re: #85 ggt

Speaking on books about Israel. Anyone have an opinion on the fiction of Herman Wouk --specifically The Hope and The Glory?

I read The Hope and thoroughly enjoyed it, but have no clue as to it's historical accuracy.

It's not gospel but Wouk always seemed to have a pretty good grasp of history and respect for it also.

Totally OT: LOL Politicians from Punditkitchen!

Enjoy.

re: #76 lawhawk

And most importantly - the water.

The Golan is the headwaters to the Kinneret and Jordan River. Much of Israel depends on that water for its drinking supply and agriculture.

I did not know that.

If true, this is really bad.

Lizards, put those books in the spin-off links --easier to refer to later when we need to!

going upstairs?

re: #88 Nevergiveup

Thanks!

re: #76 lawhawk

And most importantly - the water.

The Golan is the headwaters to the Kinneret and Jordan River. Much of Israel depends on that water for its drinking supply and agriculture.

Good point, which I should have mentioned.

re: #90 loppyd

I did not know that.

If true, this is really bad.

One of the reasons for the 1967 war was Syria fucking with headwaters of the Jordan.

re: #33 dm60462

I always and instantly thought that Bush's appeasement comments were about Olmert, not Obama.

I read somewhere they were aimed at Carter, and his visit to Hamas.
But from Obama's reaction, we know quite a bit about his plans.

re: #67 Nevergiveup

re: #70 Neo Con since 9-11

re: #78 Alouette

re: #87 chicagodudewhotrades

Thanks for the suggestions! I'll write them down and look into them when I've got some time.

A committee representing Israeli settlers on the Golan said Olmert’s move “put the State of Israel’s survival at risk.

News Flash - The status quo has already placed Israel's survival at risk. The strategic value of the Golan is huge, but so would a peace treaty with Syria which could effectively drive a wedge between Iran and Hezbollah/Hamas. IIRC the Israeli position has always reserved a strip around Yam Kinneret and also some protective security measures on the Heights themselves. And of course any agreement would have to be approved by the Knesset. Certainly no harm in talking.

I had a little kidnapping incident in Turkey once. Not a place I would call friendly.

DebkaFile has another "top secret exclusive":

Our sources report that, behind the protestations of undying American friendship and camaraderie shown in public by the US president, prime minister and Shimon Peres, Bush and his senior aides bitterly reprimanded Israel for its passivity in taking up the military challenge and crushing an avowed enemy in Lebanon.

While the president was busy with ceremonies and speeches, secretary of state Condoleezza Rice and national security adviser Stephen Hadley took Israeli officials to task. Hadley in particular bluntly blamed Israel for the downfall of the pro-Western government bloc in Beirut and its surrender to the pro-Iranian, Pro-Syrian Hizballah. If Israeli forces had struck Hizballah gunmen wile on the move, he said, Hassan Nasrallah would not have seized Beirut and brought the pro-government militias to their knees.

One US official said straight out to Olmert and Barak: For two years, you didn’t raise a finger when Hizballah took delivery of quantities of weapons, including missiles, from Iran and Syria. You did not interfere with Hizballah’s military buildup in southern Lebanon then or its capture of Beirut now.

IDF generals who were present at these conversations reported they have never seen American officials so angry or outspoken. Israel’s original blunder, they said, was its intelligence misreading of Hizballah’s first belligerent moves on May 4. At that point, Israel’s government military heads decided not to interfere, after judging those moves to be unthreatening.

I'm unconvinced of this.

re: #95 Kosh's Shadow

I read somewhere they were aimed at Carter, and his visit to Hamas.
But from Obama's reaction, we know quite a bit about his plans.

Just as you know that someone is lying when they respond to a question that has not been asked, you know that someone is inadvertently revealing the truth when they respond to an accusation not directed at them.

re: #95 Kosh's Shadow

I thought the comments were about the UN and current "accepted wisdom" not any specific person.

Here is the Israeli Ha aretz side of it.
[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

re: #95 Kosh's Shadow

I read somewhere they were aimed at Carter, and his visit to Hamas.
But from Obama's reaction, we know quite a bit about his plans.

* * *
James Djhimmi "Hurl" Carter has been on Team Axis so long, his own administration staff are expiring this Earth, yet his unholy influence lingers on, in Carter II's hope for yet more pro-Axis changes.

re: #94 Nevergiveup

One of the reasons for the 1967 war was Syria fucking with headwaters of the Jordan.

I did not know that, either.

I guess it's useless to ask, but why the hell would Olmert ever cede this to the Palis?

re: #82 UFO TOFU

No, I wouldn't waste the $10.20 on it. I don't know how such anti-semitic trash like that and Carter's "Peace" book ended up on the "Customers Who Bought This Item Also Bought" list. Is someone at Amazon actively anti Israel?