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Pat Buchanan Defends Hitler's Invasion of Poland

Wed, May 21, 2008 at 10:29:41 am PDT

Last week we noted the bizarre arguments of Seattle Times editorial writer Bruce Ramsey, who tried so hard to defend Barack Obama against President Bush’s “appeasement” speech that he actually ended up defending Hitler for annexing Austria. His exact words were: “What Hitler was demanding was not unreasonable.”

If you think that’s an ahistorical pretzel of monumental proportions, though, you ain’t seen nothin’ — because here comes Pat Buchanan. According to old Pat, not only was the Anschluss not a problem, Hitler’s invasion of Poland was also perfectly understandable, given the Poles’ refusal to negotiate.

Those darned stubborn Poles were responsible for starting World War II, according to Pat: Bush Plays the Hitler Card.

German tanks, however, did not roll into Poland until a year later, Sept. 1, 1939. Why did the tanks roll? Because Poland refused to negotiate over Danzig, a Baltic port of 350,000 that was 95 percent German and had been taken from Germany at the Paris peace conference of 1919, in violation of Wilson’s 14 Points and his principle of self-determination.

Hitler had not wanted war with Poland. He had wanted an alliance with Poland in his anti-Comintern pact against Joseph Stalin.

But the Poles refused to negotiate. Why? Because they were a proud, defiant, heroic people and because Neville Chamberlain had insanely given an unsolicited war guarantee to Poland. If Hitler invaded, Chamberlain told the Poles, Britain would declare war on Germany.

From March to August 1939, Hitler tried to negotiate Danzig. But the Poles, confident in their British war guarantee, refused. So, Hitler cut his deal with Stalin, and the two invaded and divided Poland.

The cost of the war that came of a refusal to negotiate Danzig was millions of Polish dead, the Katyn massacre, Treblinka, Sobibor, Auschwitz, the annihilation of the Home Army in the Warsaw uprising of 1944, and 50 years of Nazi and Stalinist occupation, barbarism and terror.

(Hat tip: James Taranto.)

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722 comments

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1 Bill Dalasio  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:32:18am

Wow! First we have Michael Savage. Now Buchanan. What is this? National Prove Conservatives Can be Douches Too Day?

2 Bill Dalasio  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:33:00am

By the way, obviously I'm talking about Savage and Buchanan - NOT Charles.

3 Penfold  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:33:09am

What is this, revisionist history month! Does no one read books anymore and just dream up how they think history should be.

4 Alouette  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:33:17am

re: #1 Bill Dalasio

Wow! First we have Michael Savage. Now Buchanan. What is this? National Prove Conservatives Can be Douches Too Day?

Puke-cannon is not a "Conservative," he is a Jew-hating fascist moonbat.

5 HugoChavez  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:33:22am

Nice to see Pat continues to be one of my useful idiots.

And you think he was serious in threatening to assassinate me?

It's all part of the Uber-Moonbat World Domnating Socialist Plan!

6 Rogue198  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:33:31am

I know I should be shocked, but given that it's Buchanan...I'm not.

7 bubblehead II  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:33:34am

Far left meet far Right. And both are dead wrong.

8 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:33:37am
9 David Simon  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:33:42am

Buchanan unwittingly proves his own thesis statement:

A little learning is a dangerous thing

10 Freddybear  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:33:50am

Buchanan has been a douche for a long time.

11 Maine's Michael  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:34:17am
The cost of the war that came of a refusal to negotiate Danzig was millions of Polish dead, the Katyn massacre, Treblinka, Sobibor, Auschwitz, the annihilation of the Home Army in the Warsaw uprising of 1944, and 50 years of Nazi and Stalinist occupation, barbarism and terror.

So Polish stubborness was to blame for WW2 and the Holocaust. You learn something new every day!

12 bosforus  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:34:19am

No wonder the Nazis have such a bad rep, they were practically forced to be who they were by the Polish!
/

13 coquimbojoe  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:35:21am

re: #1 Bill Dalasio

Wow! First we have Michael Savage. Now Buchanan. What is this? National Prove Conservatives Can be Douches Too Day?

Are those two conservative?

14 mean Gene  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:35:47am

So, when murderous leaders make demands of us, in violation of internationally set treaty, we should immediately capitulate.....so we can have ''peace.''
Have I got that right, Pat?

15 Maine's Michael  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:35:59am

Of course, this all makes sense.

The Poles were guilty of causing WW2 just as the Jews are repsonsible for the mid east turmoil today.

By refusing to roll over for bullies, they bring it on themselves.

/This is the logic I would expect from a bullying isolationist like Buchanan.

16 Colonel Panik  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:36:06am

What a maroon. Next thing you know he will be defending the Blitz.

Has he been hanging around with David Irving lately?

17 paxnhymn  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:36:14am

re: #7 bubblehead II

Far left meet far Right. And both are dead wrong.


nahh. He's gotten a lot crazier lately. Maybe he's the one who had the damn stroke!

18 Maximu§  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:36:18am

I thought Pat Buchanan was one of us......silly me.

19 Bill Dalasio  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:36:30am

re: #4 Alouette

Whether he is or isn't, he claims to be. After all, he is publisher of American Conservative magazine. But, yeah no disagreement from me on your point.

20 Alouette  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:36:36am

Let's not be too hard on Pat, he lost a loved one at Auschwitz.

His uncle fell out of a guard tower.

21 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:36:41am

I really think there's a serious coordinated effort in some right wing circles to change the history of WWII. Ben Stein and Pat Buchanan's ideas are getting some traction. I really hope they don't take root.

22 littleben  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:36:50am

Pat buchanon never met a neo-Nazi he didnt like.
Had to correct his old logo.

23 David Simon  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:37:03am

The lesson to be learned - if you're not a bigoted, xenophobic douchebag like Buchanan - is that you take out dictatorial madmen before they become too poweful.

24 paxnhymn  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:37:06am

re: #13 coquimbojoe

Are those two conservative?


I stopped listening to Savage. He and Buchanan are now the lunatic fringe...

25 bulwrk  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:37:09am

Because Poland refused to negotiate over Danzig, a Baltic port of 350,000 that was 95 percent German and had been taken from Germany at the Paris peace conference of 1919, in violation of Wilson’s 14 Points and his principle of self-determination.

So by his reckoning a Mexican invasion of the American Southwest would be justified.

26 Armigerous  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:37:10am

Geez....while he was at it,why didn't Buchanan mention that Mussolini made the trains run on time as well?

27 Bill Dalasio  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:37:13am

re: #13 coquimbojoe

As I said, both claim to be.

28 Maine's Michael  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:37:48am
The cost of the war that came of a refusal to negotiate Danzig was millions of Polish dead, the Katyn massacre, Treblinka, Sobibor, Auschwitz, the annihilation of the Home Army in the Warsaw uprising of 1944, and 50 years of Nazi and Stalinist occupation, barbarism and terror.

I think it sounds better in the original German.

/badump dump

29 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:37:48am
30 Alouette  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:38:01am

re: #19 Bill Dalasio

Whether he is or isn't, he claims to be. After all, he is publisher of American Conservative magazine. But, yeah no disagreement from me on your point.

Yeah, so? Norman Finklestein and Noam Chomsky say they are Jews.

31 Land Shark  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:38:01am

What a crock! Hitler just used Danzing as an excuse. Had the Poles accepted Hitler's demands, he would have still invaded. The elimination of Poland was something Hitler considered necessary, and there were many Germans who agreed with that. Even in the early days of the Weimar Republic, the German military considered Poland's existence unacceptable.

Read the history, Pat!

32 thedopefishlives  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:38:09am

And people wonder why I don't like the man.

No, seriously. I have people actually ask me why I dislike Pat Buchanan. "Isn't he one of you?" They inevitably ask. And my inevitable reply is, "Not on your life."

33 P. Aaron  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:38:11am

If you're screwed up like Obama or Buchanan, anything that gets you through the next news cycle could be construed as "reasonable".

What absolute idiots. The end justifies the means?

It's a common liberal tactic as well.

34 Sabra412  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:38:25am

If you would have told me last week that I would respect Ted Kennedy more than Pat Buchanan...

35 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:38:38am

re: #18 Maximu§

I thought Pat Buchanan was one of us......silly me.

He never really was. Buchanan is, and was always, a populist. I find it most interesting that Jonah Goldberg devotes a chapter to Buchana in his book Liberal Fascism.

36 rabidsquirrel  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:38:50am
The cost of the war that came of a refusal to negotiate Danzig was millions of Polish dead, the Katyn massacre, Treblinka, Sobibor, Auschwitz, the annihilation of the Home Army in the Warsaw uprising of 1944, and 50 years of Nazi and Stalinist occupation, barbarism and terror.

Oh, I get it; appeasement works. Europe just didn't appease the Nazis hard enough. If only they'd ceded Danzig, then the rest of Poland, Belgium, France, England, etc., war could have been easily avoided.

Why didn't they think of that?

/Must I? Must I really?

37 loppyd  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:39:03am

No wonder he gets along so well with Mika Brzezinski on MSNBC!

38 Bill Dalasio  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:39:09am

re: #21 Killgore Trout

...Ben Stein and Pat Buchanan's ideas are getting some traction. I really hope they don't take root.

Well, let's not confuse silly with sh*theel.

39 faraway  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:39:12am
Hitler had not wanted war with Poland.

Quote of the year.

No, Hitler just wanted Poland via any means at all.

40 realwest  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:39:36am

Hey come on y'all - Mr. Buchanan is just trying to get a little press and stay become relevant.
/do I really need this?

41 Athos  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:39:41am

re: #1 Bill Dalasio

Pat isn't a conservative. He's nothing more than a right wing fascist who isn't all that far apart politically from the left wing fascists. (Politics is circular.)

Let's take another look at the meme advanced by Herr Buchannan, since Poland would not appease Hitler regarding restoring access to Danzig, they were rightfully attacked and the Poles are to blame for being butchered and partitioned by the Nazi's and Soviets?

Fuck you, Pat.

42 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:39:54am

Peter Hitchens: Was World War Two just as pointless and self-defeating as Iraq, asks Peter Hitchens

This is a very dangerous line of thinking.

43 Maine's Michael  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:39:55am

re: #36 rabidsquirrel

Oh, I get it; appeasement works. Europe just didn't appease the Nazis hard enough. If only they'd ceded Danzig, then the rest of Poland, Belgium, France, England, etc., war could have been easily avoided.

Why didn't they think of that?

Kneepads weren't invented yet. The French gave it a hell of an effort though.

44 WriterMom  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:40:26am

Wow. What a major turd.

"Damn those uppity Jews for not dying in the gas chambers, and now-not in Israel either."

45 samson01  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:40:26am

Pat...Sit down and shut up!

46 Armigerous  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:40:48am

This is kinda like some muslim whackjob claiming that he tried to persuade the woman not to wear such revealing clothing but she refused so he was forced to rape her.

47 Maine's Michael  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:41:50am

re: #44 WriterMom

Howarrya?

48 paxnhymn  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:42:18am

re: #33 P. Aaron

If you're screwed up like Obama or Buchanan, anything that gets you through the next news cycle could be construed as "reasonable".

What absolute idiots. The end justifies the means?

It's a common liberal tactic as well.


You may be more right than you know, and we never talk about this. A lot of this postering is pure face time...pure and simple. Face time get's him PAYING interviews and speaking engagements. Gotta keep that face up there ya know. Look at An Coulter's anti-semetic comments outta knowhwere..she just happen to be promoting a book. ANd I know some of you are gonna hate me for this (Like I care) but McCain was pulling some of the same stunts during his "maverick" days and it looks like it paid great dividends for him...most of these people are media whores...

49 bosforus  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:42:19am

Bill Dalasio - any particular reason why you dinged my down on my #12? Not that I'm upset or offended or anything, just wondering.

50 pat  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:42:30am

There are times when obscure historical theoretics are overwhelmed by reality.

51 David Simon  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:42:45am

re: #31 Land Shark

What a crock! Hitler just used Danzing as an excuse. Had the Poles accepted Hitler's demands, he would have still invaded. The elimination of Poland was something Hitler considered necessary, and there were many Germans who agreed with that. Even in the early days of the Weimar Republic, the German military considered Poland's existence unacceptable.

Read the history, Pat!

Or at least the part about Operation Himmler.

52 nyc redneck  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:42:54am

so any country can invade another country, if it doesn't willingly negotiate away it's land?
we are living in a time, literally when anything goes.
logic, common sense, truth, out the window.
disgusting.

53 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:43:03am

See, if we just gave in to every demand anyone ever asks of us, we can avoid all war and conflict forever! Doesnt it just make so much sense?

Hey Pat, I want to burn down your house and take all your money? Huh, you dont want to? Maybe can we negotiate where you just give me half of your money? Still no? If anything bad happens, it must be your fault.

54 wolfie  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:43:27am

He totally contradicts himself just in that short passage. He first states that Hitler's real goal was to fight Stalin, which is why der Fuhrer wanted an "alliance" with Poland in the first place. So, when the Poles wouldn't cooperate in this lovely "alliance," Hitler made a deal w/ Stalin to split Poland.
WHAT? This serves the goal of confronting Communism?!

55 mfarmer1  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:43:32am

This surprises anyone? The Paulians will certainly nod in approval.

56 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:43:34am

Maybe Buchanan forgot the PIMF rule?

/nope

57 Son of the Black Dog  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:44:02am

Calling Pat Buchanan pond scum would be an insult to ponds.

58 Bill Dalasio  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:44:19am

re: #49 bosforus

Only an error on writing. I apologize.

59 Armigerous  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:44:30am

re: #57 Son of the Black Dog

.....and to the scum thereon

60 WriterMom  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:44:35am

re: #47 Maine's Michael

Baruch Hashem, yom yom.

{Michael}

Did I tell you I hung out with zulubaby in Tel Aviv, on the beach. Was that ever fun.

61 coquimbojoe  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:44:42am

re: #24 paxnhymn

I stopped listening to Savage. He and Buchanan are now the lunatic fringe...

That sums it up for me. I applaud Savage's fearless attitude standing up against some bad craziness, but he lost me a long time ago as a listener. Buchanan has always given me gas...

62 coquimbojoe  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:44:58am

re: #57 Son of the Black Dog

Calling Pat Buchanan pond scum would be an insult to ponds.

And scum.

63 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:45:00am

re: #57 Son of the Black Dog

Calling Pat Buchanan pond scum would be an insult to ponds.

And scum.

64 OrzBorz  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:45:04am

"But the Poles refused to negotiate. Why? Because they were a proud, defiant, heroic people and because Neville Chamberlain had insanely given an unsolicited war guarantee to Poland"

Well looks like Mr. Chamberlain caused it to me by reading that part of if.
/


Looks like someone missed their nap time.

65 JammieWearingFool  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:45:05am

I read this drivel yesterday and simply shook my head.

When you have Paulians and lefties quoting you more than Republicans, you know it's time to retire.

To Argentina.

66 bosforus  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:45:10am

re: #58 Bill Dalasio

Only an error on writing. I apologize.

No worries. Just thought maybe I unwittingly hit a nerve or something.

67 Opinionated  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:45:18am

MSNBC and other media outlets give Buchanan air time so that he be negatively associated with Republicans.

Plenty of people still believe Buchanan is a mainstream Republican and speaks for the party's views.

He is among the reasons that in some places Republican is a dirty word.

68 anotherindyfilmguy  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:45:37am

Are we living in a big play called "Twitus Androidicus" were all the world 'tis a stage and the players positronics are short circuiting?

69 Dan G.  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:45:42am

re: #20 Alouette

Let's not be too hard on Pat, he lost a loved one at Auschwitz.

His uncle fell out of a guard tower.

HA! That's funny... in a sick ass way.

70 coquimbojoe  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:45:47am

re: #63 Honorary Yooper

And scum.

GMTA

71 WriterMom  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:45:51am

re: #50 pat


overwhelmed by reality

You make an excellent point-true of most of the world. Too exhausted to deal wtih reality, postponing it, hitting the snooze button. In the end-it just bites you in the ass.

72 Athos  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:45:58am

re: #42 Killgore Trout

This is a very dangerous line of thinking.

Revisionist history in the making.

73 coquimbojoe  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:46:19am

re: #65 JammieWearingFool

I read this drivel yesterday and simply shook my head.

When you have Paulians and lefties quoting you more than Republicans, you know it's time to retire.

To Argentina.

What'd Argentina do wrong to deserve that?

74 David Simon  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:46:22am

re: #64 OrzBorz

"But the Poles refused to negotiate. Why? Because they were a proud, defiant, heroic people and because Neville Chamberlain had insanely given an unsolicited war guarantee to Poland"

Well looks like Mr. Chamberlain caused it to me by reading that part of if.
/


Looks like someone missed their nap time.

Neville Chamberlain was a warmonger. That could only come from the pen of a cretin like Buchanan.

75 Son of the Black Dog  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:46:42am

re: #18 Maximu§

I thought Pat Buchanan was one of us......silly me.

I haven't thought that Pat Buchanan was one of us for a long, long time.

76 CIA Reject  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:47:08am

"From March to August 1939, Hitler tried to negotiate Danzig. But the Poles, confident in their British war guarantee, refused. So, Hitler cut his deal with Stalin, and the two invaded and divided Poland."

Stuff like this worries me- it's bullshit, but it's well though out bullshit. In reality Hitler's "negotiations" with the Poles were nothing more than stalling for time for him to complete the non-aggression pact with Stalin. As soon as THAT was done Poland's goose was cooked. This subtle misrepresentation is quite believable- I think Dr. Goebbels would have given the author a B+ if it were an assignment in propaganda school.

77 vagabond trader  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:47:14am

Bitter old Jew hater. Yeah, Hitler was sooo damned reasonable that an estimated 48 million human beings died as a result of his reason.

78 Dahveed  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:47:29am

Nice revisionist history Pat. Have you read Mein Kampf? All those parts about "living space" for Germans? All that would be consider the rantings of a madman except for the fact that he actually tried and nearly succeeded in taking over all of Europe.

Pat Buchanan - History that only Ron Paul followers believe in.

79 WriterMom  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:47:44am

Hitler tried, tried so hard to negotiate...he didn't get anywhere in the negotiations so he HAD TO INVADE!

/insane

80 opnion  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:48:40am

And just what kind of negotiations does Bucahanon think that the Poles could have had with Hitler? A little give & take?
Not likely. Hitler didn't ask

81 wolfie  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:48:52am

re: #21 Killgore Trout

Ben Stein and Pat Buchanan are on completely different tracks here
. Lumping them together in this context is intellectually irresponsible and slanderous.

82 Dan G.  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:48:56am

A question to some of you out there, in particular the ones who thought Buchanan was "on our side". Do you think he is an ally just because he self identifies as a Christian?

83 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:49:00am

re: #57 Son of the Black Dog

Calling Pat Buchanan pond scum would be an insult to ponds scum.

fixed

84 chinesearithmetic  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:49:02am

The cost of the war that came of a refusal to negotiate Danzig

Stalin negotiated a non-aggression pact with Hitler. Hitler aggressed. Pat Buchanan is a fool.

85 Ron(Ron)  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:49:12am

At least Pat acknowledges Auschwitz.

86 paxnhymn  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:49:29am

re: #76 CIA Reject

Stuff like this worries me- it's bullshit, but it's well though out bullshit. In reality Hitler's "negotiations" with the Poles were nothing more than stalling for time for him to complete the non-aggression pact with Stalin. As soon as THAT was done Poland's goose was cooked. This subtle misrepresentation is quite believable- I think Dr. Goebbels would have given the author a B+ if it were an assignment in propaganda school.

yeah, over the last couple of years there's been a lot of dumbing down of the history of Nazi germany....it'll get worse as the Holocaust survivors and WWII vets die off and there's no one left to carry on the fight...scares the livin' shit outta me..

87 lawhawk  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:49:31am

re: #72 Athos

Revisionist history in the making.

Fixed that for tense.

88 loppyd  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:49:45am

re: #65 JammieWearingFool

I read this drivel yesterday and simply shook my head.

When you have Paulians and lefties quoting you more than Republicans, you know it's time to retire.

To Argentina.

There is a reason he is on the tv version of Siberia - AKA MSNBC.

89 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:49:50am

re: #82 Dan G.

A question to some of you out there, in particular the ones who thought Buchanan was "on our side". Do you think he is an ally just because he self identifies as a Christian?

I venture to opine most here figured him out many many years ago.

90 Opinionated  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:49:52am

Hiter was just for "change we can believe in".

Buchanan still believes.

91 David Simon  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:49:55am

re: #73 coquimbojoe

What'd Argentina do wrong to deserve that?

[Link: www.jewishsf.com...]

92 reine.de.tout  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:50:02am

In this statement, is Pat giving credence to and endorsing Obama's stated desire to engage in diplomacy, engage in "talks" to solve mideast difficulties? How in the world is Buchanan considered to be a conservative?

93 see bs  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:50:12am

Gee Pat, My family lived through the Nazi's invading (and Stalins Russia).
I guess my family should have made way for the "lebensraum" and given all their possessions voluntarily to the jack booted thugs, instead of having the Nazi's "liberate" their property and possessions and force them into labor camps.

Maybe you should take your head out of your ass before speaking, better yet, why don't you never speak again.

94 thedopefishlives  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:50:18am

re: #79 WriterMom

Hitler tried, tried so hard to negotiate...he didn't get anywhere in the negotiations so he HAD TO INVADE!

/insane

That just gave me a "brilliant" inspiration. If Bush == Hitler, and Hitler was legitimate in invading Poland because he couldn't negotiate with the "stubborn" and "proud" people there, then... wouldn't the invasion of Iraq be legitimate because our modern-day Hitler couldn't negotiate for oil with the stubborn, proud Baathist regime?

/Okay, I obviously need more sleep...

95 loppyd  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:50:30am

re: #86 paxnhymn

yeah, over the last couple of years there's been a lot of dumbing down of the history of Nazi germany....it'll get worse as the Holocaust survivors and WWII vets die off and there's no one left to carry on the fight...scares the livin' shit outta me..

We must be vigilant in keeping the truth alive and vowing NEVER AGAIN!

96 Armigerous  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:50:35am

re: #85 Ron(Ron)

At least Pat acknowledges Auschwitz.

Let us not forget that the real purpose of Auschwitz was to provide slave labor for IG Farben's advanced nuclear research

97 paxnhymn  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:50:42am

re: #82 Dan G.

A question to some of you out there, in particular the ones who thought Buchanan was "on our side". Do you think he is an ally just because he self identifies as a Christian?


I never thought that. So did his pal Adolf...

98 Dan G.  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:50:53am

re: #81 wolfie

re: #89 unrealizedviewpoint

Most, maybe. But I'm curious about those who either haven't figured it out or only just recently.

99 Former SSG  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:50:56am

re: #94 thedopefishlives

I like the logic. It's the premise that stinks, there!

100 WrathofG-d  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:51:30am

This is exactly why Eisenhower forced the American's to take pictures and the German's to bury the dead.

101 Dan G.  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:51:51am

Oops nix the re: #81...

102 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:51:58am
103 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:52:05am

re: #81 wolfie

Ben Stein and Pat Buchanan are on completely different tracks here
. Lumping them together in this context is intellectually irresponsible and slanderous.

Not really. They both share the goal of changing the history of WWII.

104 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:52:21am

re: #79 WriterMom

Hitler tried, tried so hard to negotiate...he didn't get anywhere in the negotiations so he HAD TO INVADE!

/insane


..just wanted to see these words in cyberprint again.

105 Charles  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:52:44am

This is a deliberate attempt to rehabilitate and redefine the concept of "appeasement."

106 WrathofG-d  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:52:44am

re: #100 WrathofG-d PIMF

This is exactly why Eisenhower forced the Americans to take pictures of the Nazi atrocities, and the Germans to bury the dead.

107 littleoldlady  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:52:56am

Anybody have contact info for the Polish Embassy? I'd like to forward this and see what they think.

108 paxnhymn  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:53:22am

re: #105 Charles

This is a deliberate attempt to rehabilitate and redefine the concept of "appeasement."

but concerning Buchanan, to what end, other that overt face time?

109 Son of the Black Dog  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:53:31am

re: #63 Honorary Yooper

And scum.

Sometimes my typing overruns my brain function.

110 Armigerous[deleted]  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:53:49am
111 chinesearithmetic  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:53:55am

ANd I know some of you are gonna hate me for this (Like I care)

Well, up yours too, I guess...

112 coquimbojoe  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:53:57am

re: #91 David Simon

[Link: www.jewishsf.com...]

Yeah, I know, I lived in Chile and used to see one at the Post Office in Coquimbo all the time, but, really his brand of foolishness needs to go somewhere else, less fun, with lousy cuts of steak, ugly women, and crappy scenery.

113 CIA Reject  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:53:59am

re: #86 paxnhymn

yeah, over the last couple of years there's been a lot of dumbing down of the history of Nazi germany....it'll get worse as the Holocaust survivors and WWII vets die off and there's no one left to carry on the fight...scares the livin' shit outta me..

Yes, but if you only need $7.14 to get the real scoop on what happened.

/If you're short on cash a library card will do...

114 WriterMom  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:54:19am

re: #107 littleoldlady

VOILA!

115 thedopefishlives  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:54:25am

re: #105 Charles

Appeasement has been making a big comeback in recent years. This scares me. Isn't one Holocaust enough of a price to pay to realize that you cannot compromise with someone whose sole demand is your death?

116 Bill Dalasio  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:54:38am

You know, now that I think about it maybe Buchanan's earlier likening of Giuliani to a Nazi was intended as an endorsement.

117 paxnhymn  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:54:41am

re: #110 Armigerous

I see the [] hammer comin' down on that one...

118 coquimbojoe  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:54:49am

re: #105 Charles

This is a deliberate attempt to rehabilitate and redefine the concept of "appeasement."

I agree, but to what end?

119 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:54:53am

re: #105 Charles

This is a deliberate attempt to rehabilitate and redefine the concept of "appeasement."

Appeasement seems to be popular with the populists right now. Both Buchanan and Obama are gunning for it.

120 chinesearithmetic  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:55:01am

#110 Get out and don't come back.

121 loppyd  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:55:15am

110

WTF?

122 SaneInMN  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:55:36am

Pat Buchanan was rightly called out by William F. Buckley over a decade ago (I believe 1991), so this latest revelation shouldn't surprise anyone who has been paying attention. Despite that, this disgrace is a regular guest on the Laura Ingraham show, and used to make regular appearances with Hannity (maybe he still does, I have not listened to Hannity in quite some time). Oh, btw, the openly anti-war, racist, xenophobic Buchanan is a favorite "conservative" of the left. See below...

From [Link: michellemalkin.com...]

A long piece by George Packer about the death of conservatism graces this week’s New Yorker. You can tell it’s hard-hitting because he interviews such movement luminaries as pro-choicer David Frum, NY Times columnist David Brooks, and paleocon dissident Pat Buchanan. Imagine my surprise to learn these fellows didn’t have much nice to say about the way the movement is going.

123 chicagodudewhotrades  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:55:46am

So i guess all that stuff in Mein kampf where Adolf talks about wanting "lebenstrum' (spelling?) Living space in the east and his writing about all Slavs being sub-human doesn't factor into Pat's thinking?

124 Armigerous  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:55:48am

re: #120 chinesearithmetic

Geez.....that joke is so old,the first time I heard it I kicked the slats out of my cradle...lighten up

125 WriterMom  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:56:02am

re: #100 WrathofG-d

This is exactly why everyone in lizardia has to make a point of listening to Holocaust survivors and veterans before they are all gone.

126 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:56:10am

re: #110 Armigerous

Not funny.

127 WrathofG-d  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:56:22am

re: #110 Armigerous

Not sure if you meant for that to be funny, but I find that language to be extremely offensive. If you have a problem with Jews I suggest you just admit so here and now.

128 Former SSG  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:56:24am

re: #110 Armigerous

That's not nice.

129 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:56:26am

re: #110 Armigerous

I didn't read that, did I?

130 WriterMom  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:56:35am

I sense Stinky....

131 coquimbojoe  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:56:44am

re: #117 paxnhymn

I see the [] hammer comin' down on that one...

Yeah, that was pretty horrible , and slandering the Poles....

132 paxnhymn  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:57:02am

re: #111 chinesearithmetic

ANd I know some of you are gonna hate me for this (Like I care)

Well, up yours too, I guess...


"well don't just guess there son! If you're gonna be an asshole, poke out your chest and be a man about it...are ya listenin' son!?"

/chanelling Foghorn

133 WriterMom[deleted]  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:57:13am
134 Ziggy  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:57:21am

What a brown shirted putz.

135 Armigerous  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:57:25am

OK...bad joke...sorry....just trying to take another approach to Buchanan's obvious lack of sympathy for what happened to the Jews during WW2...no offense intended

136 coquimbojoe  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:57:29am

re: #124 Armigerous

Geez.....that joke is so old,the first time I heard it I kicked the slats out of my cradle...lighten up

It wasn't funny then...

137 Maximu§[deleted]  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:57:33am
138 Athos  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:57:48am

#110 - I guess you like blaming the victim too?

139 vagabond trader  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:57:52am

Buchanan is an anti Zionist. Perhaps he's sniffing around for a speechwriting gig with the anti Zionist candidate.

140 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:57:58am

re: #124 Armigerous

Geez.....that joke is so old,the first time I heard it I kicked the slats out of my cradle...lighten up

Still not funny.

141 Ziggy[deleted]  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:58:09am
142 chinesearithmetic  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:58:12am

.that joke is so old,the first time I heard it I kicked the slats out of my cradle..

And you still shit yourself?

143 Maine's Michael  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:58:15am

re: #60 WriterMom

Glad you had a great time. I envy you!

My step mom was on the March of the Living (as a survivor) and just got back from Israel.

Re Zulu, how's she look in a bikini?

Send me some pics!

Email me.

144 antishock8  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:58:19am

Gegh. Why is this clown in the national discussion any more? What a shame he has Conservative street credentials. Hitler was vile, and making a deal with the Devil in order to avoid Communism wouldn't make the Poles moral or intelligent. They had a right to national autonomy, and they suffered enough without men like Pat Buchanan using their misfortune to pile on the Soviets.

145 Armigerous  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:58:41am

re: #141 Ziggy

......see my post #135

146 Former SSG  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:58:43am

Pleas edon't quote him - it makes a bigger mess if Charles decides to clean up behind him.

147 thedopefishlives  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:58:47am

re: #144 antishock8

He's in the "national discussion" because the liberals actually LIKE him. He makes us look bad.

148 daddycrack  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:58:47am

I think this is typical of Buchanan. I wonder why he isn't going to be invited to speak at the Republican Convention.

149 The Other Les  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:58:49am

Okay Pat, what part of "appeasing the bad guys makes them stronger" did you not understand?

I expect this nonsense from the narcissistic pacifist trash on the Left. For it to be emitted from one who claims to be a conservative is simply inexcusable.

150 Dahveed  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:58:50am

re: #105 Charles

This is a deliberate attempt to rehabilitate and redefine the concept of "appeasement."

What's worse is the redefining of the motives of the Nazis. We see it now when people are trying to understand the motives of the Islamofascists.

151 GrepSedAwk  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:59:17am

British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain gave this speech to the House of Commons on September 1, 1939, just hours after Hitler's troops had invaded Poland.

Chamberlain and others had spent years negotiating with Hitler in order to prevent another war in Europe, two decades after the Great War in which an entire generation of young men had been wiped out.

Negotiations with Hitler had included surrendering the sovereign rights of Czechoslovakia and standing by as Hitler's troops took Austria. By 1939, Hitler desired war and any further attempts to negotiate peace were doomed to failure. The Nazis then staged a fake attack on a German radio outpost along the German-Polish border and used that as an excuse for invasion. Link: Here

152 Liechtentrager  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:59:32am

re: #78 Dahveed

Nice revisionist history Pat. Have you read Mein Kampf?

Is that a rhetorical question?

153 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:59:37am

re: #141 Ziggy

Please don't repeat the comment by using the quote buttong. Use the reply button instead. It's less work for Stinky.

154 WriterMom  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:59:38am

re: #143 Maine's Michael

I'll e-mail you-of course and I have nice pictures.

155 formercorpsman  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:59:39am

As Killgore alluded to earlier, I think we are seeing the left/right convergence.

While he may have some correct time lines, and other facts that are only minuscule when compared to the big picture, when people like Buchanan makes such broad assertions, it requires a divorce from reality.

He, and others like him, are rewriting history. Both sides are now doing this.

Somehow, in retrospect, by just giving in to this minor demand, the war could have been avoided. Forget the war machine, the evil motivation for the final solution, etc.

This argument is on par with the concept of fighting terrorism just creates more terrorists.

Applied in theory, the world should have let Saddam keep Kuwait.

I agree, let them speak. What righteous people of the world need to do, is refute them.

Point by point. Make them illegitimate.

156 paxnhymn  Wed, May 21, 2008 10:59:40am

re: #135 Armigerous

OK...bad joke...sorry....just trying to take another approach to Buchanan's obvious lack of sympathy for what happened to the Jews during WW2...no offense intended

really bad "approach"...but most here have a lotta forgiveness if your stupid lobe in your brain doesn't accidentally engage again...

157 The Other Les  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:00:01am

re: #115 thedopefishlives

Appeasement has been making a big comeback in recent years. This scares me. Isn't one Holocaust enough of a price to pay to realize that you cannot compromise with someone whose sole demand is your death?

Apparently not.

158 Armigerous  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:00:30am

The point I was trying to make...and made it badly...was that the joke was an example of the kind of result you can expect from the kind of appeasement that Buchanan seems to think would have worked with Hitler

159 Opinionated  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:00:30am

re: #139 vagabond trader

Buchanan is an anti Zionist. Perhaps he's sniffing around for a speechwriting gig with the anti Zionist candidate.

Buchanan is an anti Semite. Supporting Nazi war criminals, for one example, is more then anti Zionism.

160 zombie  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:00:32am

re: #32 thedopefishlives

And people wonder why I don't like the man.

No, seriously. I have people actually ask me why I dislike Pat Buchanan. "Isn't he one of you?" They inevitably ask. And my inevitable reply is, "Not on your life."

This is why I resist the label "conservative." I am the polar opposite of Pat Buchanan, and yet he and I (and all of us) are lumped together in the same political category. Whether we like it or not.

Charles is doing a brilliant job of distancing himself (and us his readers) from the Pat Buchanans and the Ben Steins and the Filip DeWinters and the David Dukes and the Ron Pauls -- but the problem is there's still no name for what our political orientation actually is. I'm tired of using "neo-con." And "anti-idiotarian" just hasn't caught on in the mainstream.

What are we?

161 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:00:37am

re: #137 Maximu§

Suggestion for Charles:
When moving the ding +/- apart as some have suggested, maybe you need move the quote and reply too . :)

162 Dan G.  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:00:56am

re: #155 formercorpsman

Spot on.

163 Ziggy  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:00:56am

re: #145 Armigerous

......see my post #135


Got it.

164 WrathofG-d  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:01:25am

re: #125 WriterMom

Yes we definately have to listen to their stories (which is why Speilberg's Shoah Project is so important) but even more than listening, we need to learn from them.

I'm afraid however that today everything is so "nuanced" and "gray area'd" that even knowing the history will not help us. When teachers failing a kid are "nazis", and the building of homes is "aushwitz", just knowing the history is not enough.

165 Son of the Black Dog  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:01:25am

re: #117 paxnhymn

I see the [] hammer comin' down on that one...

And quickly, I hope.

166 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:01:25am

re: #145 Armigerous

Still not funny.

Think before posting.

167 lurking faith  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:01:30am

So, does Pea Brain, er... Pat Buchanan also think that the USA should have stepped back and let the stubborn, proud Japanese take or retake all those Pacific islands? After all, Japan only attacked us because they wanted what they felt was rightfully theirs, and we wouldn't give it to them.
/

168 Dan G.  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:02:16am

re: #160 zombie

This is why I resist the label "conservative." I am the polar opposite of Pat Buchanan, and yet he and I (and all of us) are lumped together in the same political category. Whether we like it or not.

Charles is doing a brilliant job of distancing himself (and us his readers) from the Pat Buchanans and the Ben Steins and the Filip DeWinters and the David Dukes and the Ron Pauls -- but the problem is there's still no name for what our political orientation actually is. I'm tired of using "neo-con." And "anti-idiotarian" just hasn't caught on in the mainstream.

What are we?

We, I posit, are the true liberals. Leftists aren't "freedom lovers" and therefore don't deserve the term.

169 Maine's Michael  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:02:20am

I would turf armigerous.

That joke is terrible, on so many levels.

Its all about judgment, and he has none, it seems.

170 littleoldlady  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:02:30am

re: #114 WriterMom

Sent!

Heh™

171 Athos  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:02:52am

re: #160 zombie

What are we?

Right.
As in correct.

172 wolfie  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:03:24am

re: #42 Killgore Trout

Peter Hitchens: Was World War Two just as pointless and self-defeating as Iraq, asks Peter Hitchens

This is a very dangerous line of thinking.

Extremely dangerous. This spiel may not fly with people over fifty, but you can easily sell it to the young. (They know very little about American history and virtually nothing about Europe.)
I have already seen hints of this revisionism in academe.
I fear it.

173 Ojoe  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:03:34am

Buchanan should read Winston Churchill's "The Gathering Storm".

Meanwhile he is an idiot, and probably after he reads that book, he will still be an idiot.

174 faraway  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:03:49am

Mein Kampf (Volumes 1 and 2)
Autobiography outlining Hitler's National Socialist political ideology

Dreams of My Father/ Audacity of Hoax
Autobiography outlining Hussein Obama's Black Liberation political Theology

Are there other similarities?

175 Vergeltung  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:04:47am

I wonder if there is any historical record for the pre-war negotiations he speaks of regarding Danzig. I had never heard of that before. If Danzig was indeed 95% German pre-war, I can certainly see that as a problem. most historians agree that the seeds of WWII were sown in the surrender "terms" of WWI.

176 paxnhymn  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:04:52am

re: #169 Maine's Michael

I would turf armigerous.

That joke is terrible, on so many levels.

Its all about judgment, and he has none, it seems.


ahh..give it a break. It was horrible, but I think that's it's first effup. If it's a true skidmark it won't take long...

177 Dan G.  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:04:55am

re: #173 Ojoe

Won't do any good. Those impervious to facts won't be made less so by the application of more facts.

178 WriterMom  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:04:58am

re: #161 unrealizedviewpoint

Charles-I agree, a little more space between the - and + buttons would be great, or even the counter between the - and the + .

Also-the 'quote' function is still obviously an issue...have you considered disabling the ability to quote an entire post? People should have to actually quote the particular passage that they are refering to, not waste space with repeating entire posts and this would cut out the risk of people repeating offensive things that get deleted.

179 Athos  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:05:17am

re: #173 Ojoe

I agree he'll still be an idiot. He will only see what he wants to believe....and then rationalize everything else into either fitting that view or being wrong.

180 vagabond trader  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:05:25am

re: #159 Opinionated

Anti Zionism is his "acceptable" public stance, just as it is with all the other PC anti semites.I know what I'm looking at here.

181 itellu3times  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:05:36am

But Krystalnacht was November 1938 (a few weeks after "Munich"), and the Jews had been persecuted openly by the government for at least five years by then, so why would anybody give the Nazis a matchstick? If Buchanan's theory was any good, wouldn't Chamberlain have also handed over Danzig?

And if Pat has a point what is it, that he's suddenly a big supporter of Wilson and self-determination?

Pat, you just soiled yourself in public, yet again.

Dang, I try really hard to like Buchanan, but he gets these fits.

182 Ojoe  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:05:53am

re: #175 Vergeltung

Read "The Gathering Storm" Winston Churchill lays it all out in that book.

183 marjoriemoon  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:06:15am

Clean up on aisle 110.

184 loppyd  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:06:34am

re: #125 WriterMom

This is exactly why everyone in lizardia has to make a point of listening to Holocaust survivors and veterans before they are all gone.

In 8th grade, Holocaust surviver Sonia Weitz came and spoke to our history class. I will never forget it.

185 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:07:20am
186 Ojoe  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:07:25am

re: #183 marjoriemoon

Meant to hit the minus on that, ignore my plus

187 Vergeltung  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:07:32am

re: #182 Ojoe

Read "The Gathering Storm" Winston Churchill lays it all out in that book.

gotcha. thanks for the tip. my reading list is freakin' long as it is. but I can always add another! :)

188 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:07:42am
189 vagabond trader  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:08:03am

re: #184 loppyd

If the left has its way we'll be having Nakba sensitivity training in schools. Sooner than later.

190 WrathofG-d  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:08:04am

re: #175 Vergeltung

That is nonsense. Are we to have no loss in losing a war? If, like the Arabs are today, one gets to go back to square one after losing a war..then why not give it a go? At best you get what you want, at worst you go back to where you started and the world pays to fix you up right.

191 Ojoe  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:08:16am

re: #187 Vergeltung

That's an important book these days.

192 WriterMom  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:08:27am

re: #185 buzzsawmonkey

Mein Kampftown crazies...LOLOL

Good one, buzz. HAHAHAHA

193 antishock8  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:08:28am

re: #110 Armigerous

As has been observed before, the Kos Kids are vile. Man...

194 Stinky Beaumont  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:09:01am

That was not the first offense, and I'm tired of cleaning up that guy's messes. Banned.

195 WriterMom  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:09:16am

re: #181 itellu3times

Don't forget about the Nuremberg laws...1935.

196 calcajun  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:09:58am

First, I am in no way an apologist for the Germans and the Nazi Party for WWII.

But, if you remove the odious aspects of the Nazi and look at the demands made by Germany in the 1930's (it's hard, given the prism of history), you'll see a country trying to put itself back together after having been carved up in 1918 at Versailles. "Poland" had been party of Imperial Russia, as had the Baltic States before WWI. All of that had been territory won by Germany in its treaty with the Russians at Brest-Litovsk (yes - a treaty as harsh as Versailles--but it had been the Russians who had capitulated). Germany, in a sense, was trying to regain the territory which had been its own as well as jump-start its economy, which had been weakened by the terms of Versailles. Hitler and the Nazis played on the high level of German resentment and promised to restore German self-esteem.

I suppose there is something of a paradox here in that we learned, from the 1930's, that appeasement--in the long run-- does not work. But another lesson is that harsh treaty terms will breed resentment in a people--especially if the terms are rammed down their throat. There is always going to be a wily politician who will parlay that resentment into power.

Buchanan's analogy is not a particularly good one. He is correct in that Danzig was historically German. But, he ignores the fact that had there been "negotiation" (aka; capitulation) by the Poles, French and British, then none of the Western European powers would have had any credibility when Hitler made his next demand.

One thing people in the west lose sight of; Hitler was true to his vision in Mein Kampf. All you had to do was read it and you knew his world view and you could anticipate what he would do. Our generation has a similar bit of intelligence--and like our ancestors from the 1930's, no one seems to take it seriously. It's called the Koran.

197 Vergeltung  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:10:29am

re: #190 WrathofG-d

That is nonsense. Are we to have no loss in losing a war? If, like the Arabs are today, one gets to go back to square one after losing a war..then why not give it a go? At best you get what you want, at worst you go back to where you started and the world pays to fix you up right.

well, what you are then saying is that the consensus amongst the majority of historians is wrong. that's fine. you can take that position. however, a keen student of history understands that blaming only Germany for WWI is not supported by the available facts.

198 itellu3times  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:10:52am

And when did FDR give his speech, "We remain a neutral nation, but I cannot ask all citizens to be neutral", ...

199 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:11:11am

re: #178 WriterMom


Also-the 'quote' function is still obviously an issue...have you considered disabling the ability to quote an entire post? People should have to actually quote the particular passage that they are refering to, not waste space with repeating entire posts

Why is everybody so darned concerned with saving space? If one wants only to quote a portion of a comment, one need only highlight and delete the undesiderd portion.

...this would cut out the risk of people repeating offensive things that get deleted.

Yes but it would also slow the conversation.

200 paxnhymn  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:11:17am

re: #194 Stinky Beaumont

That was not the first offense, and I'm tired of cleaning up that guy's messes. Banned.


ok..so it IS a repeat offender! there's the verdict...and the Mighty Troll Hammer creates yet another green skidmark...


:-D

201 WrathofG-d  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:11:19am

re: #196 calcajun

Yawn. Look when you start a world war and lose, you LOSE. Not only the war but other things along with it, such as prestige, land, and money.

There are no "give backs" after taking on the world.

202 marjoriemoon  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:11:36am

re: #139 vagabond trader

Buchanan is an anti Zionist. Perhaps he's sniffing around for a speechwriting gig with the anti Zionist candidate.

He's an anti-Semite. You want to explain the difference?

203 Iron Fist  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:11:45am

One of the interesting side-effects of a long war in Iraq is that it seems that the fascists among us have become less and less afraid to take off their masks and reveal their true selves to the rest of the world. How long is it before Hitler is totally rehabilitated and even pittied for the awful allies interfering with his plans for a thousand year reich?

It is really not a far step from where we are now, especially when you look at the way the Left have treated the question of Saddam Hussein Obama and their bold antipathy to all things Israel.

204 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:11:51am

Now I understand why all the kooks say Bush is worse than Hitler - they don't think that Hitler was all that bad!

205 marjoriemoon  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:12:06am

re: #186 Ojoe

Meant to hit the minus on that, ignore my plus

I think s/he got so many minuses it probably doesn't matter at this point lol

206 IPLaw  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:13:09am

Wow.

Does Pat realize that, according to his logic, Mexico should send tanks into Texas, and that there would be peace in the middle east but for our support of Israel?

207 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:13:10am

re: #118 coquimbojoe

I agree, but to what end?

That's the real question here. I suspect that it's because WWII had so much influence on the world we live in today. I think many on the right see Western civilization in decline an by changing the history of what happened and why they hope to advance "right wing" ideology as the cure. They are making progress in changing the history. Look at how many people here believe that evolutionary science led to the holocaust. These ideas are gaining traction.

208 anotherindyfilmguy  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:13:24am

OT:
Shrillary is on tv (we're missing flipper!) and it looks like she's going to sue the DNC for Florida and Michigans votes!
Woo-Hoo!
Let the day in court of the lonmg knives begin!

209 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:13:28am

re: #194 Stinky Beaumont

That was not the first offense, and I'm tired of cleaning up that guy's messes. Banned.

Stinky went and checked his records. :)

210 Maine's Michael  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:13:32am

re: #181 itellu3times

For Buchanan, the travials of the Jews prior (and during, probabaly) are mere historical curiosities that should not impact on the analysis of the 'larger' sweep of hisotry (as he sees it).

The man is an out and out venomous prick.


I cannot believe he is still on Fox as a commentator, occasionally.

211 Alouette  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:13:46am

re: #196 calcajun

But, if you remove the odious aspects of the Nazi and look at the demands made by Germany in the 1930's (it's hard, given the prism of history), you'll see a country trying to put itself back together after having been carved up in 1918 at Versailles. "Poland" had been party of Imperial Russia, as had the Baltic States before WWI. All of that had been territory won by Germany in its treaty with the Russians at Brest-Litovsk (yes - a treaty as harsh as Versailles--but it had been the Russians who had capitulated). Germany, in a sense, was trying to regain the territory which had been its own as well as jump-start its economy, which had been weakened by the terms of Versailles. Hitler and the Nazis played on the high level of German resentment and promised to restore German self-esteem.

So you are saying there should be no consequences to losing a war you started?

212 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:13:46am

re: #160 zombie

This is why I resist the label "conservative." I am the polar opposite of Pat Buchanan, and yet he and I (and all of us) are lumped together in the same political category. Whether we like it or not.

Charles is doing a brilliant job of distancing himself (and us his readers) from the Pat Buchanans and the Ben Steins and the Filip DeWinters and the David Dukes and the Ron Pauls -- but the problem is there's still no name for what our political orientation actually is. I'm tired of using "neo-con." And "anti-idiotarian" just hasn't caught on in the mainstream.

What are we?

That's a jolly good question. What are we exactly? LGF has a bunch of people who can be called both conservative and liberal. People who believe in a variety of religions, and those who don't believe at all. People who seem to value human life very highly; people who are very informed about history. People who are not PC, but do not take insults (as seen in #110) very lightly either. We seem to value freedom and equal opportunity very highly as well.

What are we?

Well, the whole political spectrum is way out of date, and maybe was never really accurate to begin with. It was, after all, based on where people sat in the assembly during the French Revolution.

I would propose that there are several types of totalitarians and collectivists in the world. There are the Buchananites: DeWinter, GoV, et.al. (fascist type I). There are the Obamamaniacs: Rich Daley, et.al. (fascist type II). There are the plain socialists like Hillary Clinton (communist), and there are the Islamists and Jihadis (fascist type III).

We, my lizardoid friends, fit in a very different category. We are individualists. We recognize that the collective is not out there for any good but that of the few, and that the individual is more important than the collective.

We are Individualists fighting against the Collectivists. Neither Right nor Left, Conservative nor Liberal.

That is who we are.

213 loppyd  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:13:52am

re: #206 IPLaw

Wow.

Does Pat realize that, according to his logic, Mexico should send tanks into Texas, and that there would be peace in the middle east but for our support of Israel?

I think he agrees with one of your points.

214 jaunte  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:15:06am

Any of you out there homeschooling might be interested in getting this miniseries on dvd for your kids, to give them an overview of the forces leading up to WW1:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

215 Athos  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:15:22am

re: #210 Maine's Michael

I believe he's primarily on MSNBC, but for some strange reason, Hannity keeps interviewing the guy (on radio - don't know about on Hannity & Cryptmaster) and providing him with legitimacy.

216 joncelli  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:15:26am

re: #108 paxnhymn

Buchanan is a frank isolationist. He wants America out of the international arena and he wants our friends -- particularly Israel -- to be abandoned. Mostly because Buchanan is an anti-semitic blood-and-soil cryptofascist.

217 loppyd  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:15:27am

re: #208 anotherindyfilmguy

OT:
Shrillary is on tv (we're missing flipper!) and it looks like she's going to sue the DNC for Florida and Michigans votes!
Woo-Hoo!
Let the day in court of the lonmg knives begin!

Has Lanny Davis been deployed to the Sunshine State yet?

218 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:15:49am

re: #208 anotherindyfilmguy

OT:
Shrillary is on tv (we're missing flipper!) and it looks like she's going to sue the DNC for Florida and Michigans votes!
Woo-Hoo!
Let the day in court of the lonmg knives begin!

Ya know, I think FL is having a state primary election on 8/26 and MI on 8/8. Maybe they'll have a redo? ?

219 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:16:15am

This shit bothers me. It's the camel's nose in the tent. We're seeing articles saying that Hitler was justified in a few things. Then, his ideas become more acceptable. It won't be too long before we see articles saying that maybe Hitler went too far, but he was justified in taking action against the Jews.
Should I get a yellow star now and avoid the rush?

220 anotherindyfilmguy  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:16:32am

re: #218 unrealizedviewpoint

Something is coming out of this speech if she ever gets to the point...

221 itellu3times  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:16:34am

re: #196 calcajun

Yes but something else we have trouble understanding today is the nationalism of the time. Today, the idea is to trade across boundaries, the multinational corporations are our new models. Plenty of problems with that, but table that for now. Nationalism back then meant getting more land and power for a nation. This still has the Euros traumatized today, nationalism as tribalism (why the Islamic micro-tribalism does not scare them, is another question). Who really cared what nation Danzig was a part of? Maybe not even Hitler, and Pat's theory is even more bogus the more you look at it, but insofar as Hitler cared, it was as part of an aggressive nationalism, much more than any reconciliation and repair after Versailles - which you might say was nationalist in punishing a nation. We're just so much more Kumbaya today, even (especially!?) the multinational right wing capitalists.

222 Athos  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:17:09am

re: #219 Kosh's Shadow

Forget the star. Lock and load. Never again.

223 Dan G.  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:17:30am

re: #222 Athos

Echo.

224 calcajun  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:17:46am

re: #201 WrathofG-d

They did not lose WWI - they failed to win. Seriously - that's their view to this day. No Allied soldier set foot on German soil in WWI. To have the country carved up, their navy taken and interned, being forced to take the blame for the whole war (when it was the disastrous bungling of the diplomats on all sides) and territory surrendered without conquest was the seedbed of the resentment later nurtured by the Nazi Party.

225 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:18:13am

re: #204 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Now I understand why all the kooks say Bush is worse than Hitler - they don't think that Hitler was all that bad!

I believe there's much truth in this statement. They really don't know history. Anything before 1980 is ancient and unnecessary filler.

226 anotherindyfilmguy  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:18:15am

Had to switch to commie news network 'cause fox cut out on her...

227 jaunte  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:18:26am

re: #212 Honorary Yooper

One added thought: most of the categories you cite can be explained in economic terms. The jihadis are in a different category. they don't want to adjust the world that exists to suit their economic sense, they want to destroy it and rebuild it to suit their religion.

228 opnion  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:18:33am

re: #155 formercorpsman

As Killgore alluded to earlier, I think we are seeing the left/right convergence.

While he may have some correct time lines, and other facts that are only minuscule when compared to the big picture, when people like Buchanan makes such broad assertions, it requires a divorce from reality.

He, and others like him, are rewriting history. Both sides are now doing this.

Somehow, in retrospect, by just giving in to this minor demand, the war could have been avoided. Forget the war machine, the evil motivation for the final solution, etc.

This argument is on par with the concept of fighting terrorism just creates more terrorists.

Applied in theory, the world should have let Saddam keep Kuwait.

I agree, let them speak. What righteous people of the world need to do, is refute them.

Point by point. Make them illegitimate.


In spite of the risk of being boring, I would point out that on the Hegelian curve the far right & far left ultimately converge & become indistinguishable That is why so many on the left sound like Nazis

229 Occasional Reader  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:18:46am

re: #5 HugoChavez

Nice to see Pat continues to be one of my useful idiots.

And you think he was serious in threatening to assassinate me?

Jefe, those arepas with the "extra special" ingredient are going to your head. That was a different Pat. (Robertson, not Buchanan.)

230 madisonsfriend  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:19:00am

re: #48 paxnhymn

231 Vergeltung  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:19:04am

re: #224 calcajun

They did not lose WWI - they failed to win. Seriously - that's their view to this day. No Allied soldier set foot on German soil in WWI. To have the country carved up, their navy taken and interned, being forced to take the blame for the whole war (when it was the disastrous bungling of the diplomats on all sides) and territory surrendered without conquest was the seedbed of the resentment later nurtured by the Nazi Party.

very well said, I think quite a few posters need to read a bit more before asserting some things here. :)

232 Red Ruffansore  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:19:06am

As moronic as Pat can be for defending der Fueher don't think Pat can't be outdone. Here in Redstate Nebraska we have our very own Chuck Bagel capitulating to our enemies in the name of peace and rubbing up against Obama's leg like a horny cat since he has used up all of his carbon credits here. He is a political dead man walking in our state, dog catcher would be a reach and require a serious cash outlay to pull that high office deal off. The Bagel squared off against his former pen mate "THE MAVERICK" and jibbered this nonsense : Hagel, speaking to a small gathering at the residence of the Italian ambassador, took umbrage with several positions taken by the McCain campaign, including the Arizona Senator's criticism of Obama for pledging to engage with Iran. Engagement is not, and should not be confused for, capitulation, he argued.
"I never understand how anyone in any realm of civilized discourse could sort through the big issues and challenges and threats and figure out how to deal with those without engaging in some way...." WTF? Well apparently the seat Neville Chamberlain occupies in hell is a love seat. Hurry Chuckie before someone takes your spot. Unfortunately we are a one newspaper town and they lick Chuckies shoes so clean that he hasn't bought a new pair in years so nothing critical of the BAGEL ever reaches print. Don't doubt for a minute that Barry isn't thinking of using this media tool/whore for his advancement and Chuck is just the boy to do it. He sold us out every time he had a chance.

233 itellu3times  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:19:06am

re: #216 joncelli

Buchanan is a frank isolationist. He wants America out of the international arena and he wants our friends -- particularly Israel -- to be abandoned. Mostly because Buchanan is an anti-semitic blood-and-soil cryptofascist.

I think in large part he's an isolationist because of his twisted anti-semitism.

I like Buchanan's intelligence, and wit, and populism - except it seems not to include Jews or blacks, among others. He sometimes tries to be more inclusive, but then backslides. Needs a good twelve-step program, I think.

234 vagabond trader  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:19:07am

re: #202 marjoriemoon

see 189. Educated anti semites, especially well known ones, almost universally trumpet anti Zionism in their public dialogue, since coming out of the Jew hating closet still remains publically unacceptable.Some folks need to settle down a wee bit.

235 CIA Reject  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:19:15am

re: #219 Kosh's Shadow

This shit bothers me. It's the camel's nose in the tent. We're seeing articles saying that Hitler was justified in a few things. Then, his ideas become more acceptable. It won't be too long before we see articles saying that maybe Hitler went too far, but he was justified in taking action against the Jews...

Yeah, and he was a vegetarian, a tea-totler, and he loved dogs!

/*SPIT*

236 Charles  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:20:04am

re: #216 joncelli

Buchanan is a frank isolationist. He wants America out of the international arena and he wants our friends -- particularly Israel -- to be abandoned. Mostly because Buchanan is an anti-semitic blood-and-soil cryptofascist.

He's also an associate of the Eurofascists -- the British National Party and the Vlaams Belang, and probably the French National Front too.

237 lawhawk  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:20:06am

re: #228 opnion

It also helps when you remember that the Nazi party is an acronym for the National Socialist Workers Party.

238 madisonsfriend  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:20:39am

re: #230 madisonsfriend

My message disappeared! I agreed with the media whore statement- I said left or right, TV or radio- it is all about the money

239 anotherindyfilmguy  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:21:00am

Crap... she's not suing... yet... just a big pander to get people to sign a petition for their votes to be counted... twiticus... she should be suing them right now...

240 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:22:05am

re: #227 jaunte

One added thought: most of the categories you cite can be explained in economic terms. The jihadis are in a different category. they don't want to adjust the world that exists to suit their economic sense, they want to destroy it and rebuild it to suit their religion.

True, but all of these collectivists want to remake the world in their image and make, for themselves, a paradise on Earth. Many are economic, yes, but the jihadis are collectivist as well.

Everything In Islam
Nothing Outside of Islam
Nothing Against Islam

241 cicero05  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:22:21am

So let me get this straight. The Poles had a choice in dealing with Hitler. Permit the dismemberment of their state voluntarily (or as Buchanan prettily puts it, "negotiate Danzig") or give it up through blitzkrieg. Why, if only those stupid Poles would have capitulated through negotiation, they could have avoided a war!

Applied to Middle East, this means that Israel too should try to appease its enemies by negotiating away its territory to avoid a war. But somehow, it seems like a bad idea for Israel to take the advice of a guy who is so ready to find justification in Nazi aggression. Buchanan just may not have the best interests of the Jewish state at heart.

242 rabidsquirrel  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:22:23am

re: #160 zombie

This is why I resist the label "conservative." I am the polar opposite of Pat Buchanan, and yet he and I (and all of us) are lumped together in the same political category. Whether we like it or not.

Charles is doing a brilliant job of distancing himself (and us his readers) from the Pat Buchanans and the Ben Steins and the Filip DeWinters and the David Dukes and the Ron Pauls -- but the problem is there's still no name for what our political orientation actually is. I'm tired of using "neo-con." And "anti-idiotarian" just hasn't caught on in the mainstream.

What are we?

We are Lizards.

243 JHW  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:22:28am

I think there is a bit of confusion regarding Danzig and Buchanan muddies the water on its status, giving the impression that it was under the control of Poland. Not so, it was a so-called free city, but already under Nazi influence. The Nazis wanted a corridor of Polish land to connect it with Germany and that was just the first bite of Poland the Nazi alligator wanted.

When Poland regained its independence after World War I with access to the sea as promised by the Allies on the basis of Woodrow Wilson's "Fourteen Points", the Poles hoped the city's harbour would also become part of Poland. However, since a 1919 census determined that the city's population was 98% German,[13] it was not placed under Polish sovereignty, but, according to the terms of the Versailles Treaty, became the Free City of Danzig, an independent quasi-state under the auspices of the League of Nations with its external affairs largely under Polish control. This led to a large degree of tension between the city and the surrounding Republic of Poland. The Free City had its own constitution, national anthem, parliament (Volkstag), and government (Senat). It issued its own stamps as well as currency.

The majority of the Free City of Danzig's population favored reincorporation into Germany. In the early 1930s the local Nazi Party capitalized on these pro-German sentiments and in 1933 garnered 38% of vote in the parliament. Thereafter, the Nazis under Gauleiter Albert Forster achieved dominance in the city government, which was still nominally overseen by the League of Nations' High Commissioner. The Nazis demanded the return of Danzig to Germany along with an exterritorial highway for land-based access to the Third Reich through the area of the Polish Corridor.[14] However, when the German Nazi Government secured Soviet approval for aggression against Poland, a decision was made to launch a full-out offensive regardless of any Polish willingness to negotiate successions.[15] On September 1, 1939, Nazi Germany attacked Poland, triggering the outbreak of World War II.

Danzig-Gdansk Wiki article

244 loppyd  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:23:56am

re: #239 anotherindyfilmguy

Crap... she's not suing... yet... just a big pander to get people to sign a petition for their votes to be counted... twiticus... she should be suing them right now...

The Complaints have been drafted and ready to be filed if the rules committee
does not work something out with FL and MI on 5/31.

245 The Pulchritudinous Patriot  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:24:26am

Ironically, the appeasers are using the same Chamberlainesque arguments regarding the invasion of Islam in Europe... "they" really just want to live in peace, after all.


(after all, Spain really did belong to the Muslims before the wicked infidels wrested it back during the Crusades, which were really all about whitey Christians oppressing people who didn't look or think like them.)/

246 nikis-knight  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:24:42am

re: #21 Killgore Trout

I really think there's a serious coordinated effort in some right wing circles to change the history of WWII. Ben Stein and Pat Buchanan's ideas are getting some traction. I really hope they don't take root.

I really don't think Stein and buchanan have the same ideas here, and I really don't think they have any coordination.
Stein was trying to explain Hitler's ideology, agree or disagree.
Pat Buchanan seems to be trying to justify Hitler's actions, in order to attack Bush. What corelation is there?

247 JohnnyReb  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:24:59am

There is a reason that this stuff is starting to trickle out now. I don't think we can pin it just on the MSM's love for Obama either.

Someone said something about the 50+ crowd above that started me thinking. We of the age 50 crowd have a reasonable chance of living another 30 years. We vote in huge numbers, but our numbers dwindle each and every year and we are not going to get replacements in the numbers we need to even attempt to keep anything in check by voting.

Some people/groups are trying to re-write history and they are aiming it at the younger generation. I am not sure of their motive or goals, but this stuff is not aimed at conservatives or the over 50 crowd because we know it is nonsense.

I suspect next that someone will blame Pearl Harbor on the US for cutting off Japan from scrap metal and oil, if we had only kept giving it to them while they raped China and the rest of Asia, everything would have been OK.

And I am truly frightened by this.

248 The Pulchritudinous Patriot  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:25:07am

re: #235 CIA Reject

Yeah, and he was a vegetarian, a tea-totler, and he loved dogs!

/*SPIT*


Don't forget, he only had one ball. (or is that an urban legend?)

249 marjoriemoon  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:25:17am

re: #160 zombie

This is why I resist the label "conservative." I am the polar opposite of Pat Buchanan, and yet he and I (and all of us) are lumped together in the same political category. Whether we like it or not.

Charles is doing a brilliant job of distancing himself (and us his readers) from the Pat Buchanans and the Ben Steins and the Filip DeWinters and the David Dukes and the Ron Pauls -- but the problem is there's still no name for what our political orientation actually is. I'm tired of using "neo-con." And "anti-idiotarian" just hasn't caught on in the mainstream.

What are we?

The problem: You all make distinctions between your outsiders, those on the far right and the rest of you, but you make no distinctions between the far left and the rest us. All liberals suck, we can't think for ourselves, we all hate Israel, we're all hypocrites, yada yada. We are all One thing, but only you share many complicated thoughts.

So some wacka-do like Buchanan spews his anti-Semitism all over the place and you're quick to disassociate yourself from him, but let me try to do that? Forgettaboutit.

Let me give you some advice. You are conservatives. Embrace it. It's who you are. I'm a liberal. I'll always be a liberal, but that doesn't mean I buy the Far Left view anymore than you buy the Far Right view. We are all complicated people.

250 Occasional Reader  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:25:34am

Next, Buchanan is going to explain the "self-defense measures" Hitler took against the Joos.

251 Spiny Norman  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:25:36am

re: #211 Alouette

So you are saying there should be no consequences to losing a war you started?

Except that Germany didn't start WWI, the Austrian Emperor did. Kaiser Bill was happy to join in though, convinced that it would be a lark and Over By Christmas™.

252 lurking faith  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:25:40am

re: #175 Vergeltung

Danzig, and some other parts of then-Poland, had a significant Germanic population. So what? Country borders had been fluctuating all around Europe for centuries, and people migrated to safer or more fertile locations, and the borders never 100 percent matched the ethnicity of the population.

Plus, Danzig was not a border city, AND was an important port, so expecting Poland to just give it up was ridiculous. Hitler knew that, and so did the English.

253 The Pulchritudinous Patriot  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:26:13am

re: #239 anotherindyfilmguy

Crap... she's not suing... yet... just a big pander to get people to sign a petition for their votes to be counted... twiticus... she should be suing them right now...

She's like luggage....hard to get rid of.

254 offendi  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:26:25am

Every time I see old Patty on the TV I change the channel immediately. His brand of "conservatism" is like mother's milk to intellectually challenged leftists who employ all his frothings as examples of "real" conservative thought

At this point Patty should go on the road with Jeremiah Wright and debate each other at different colleges. " The two loonies" tour. Except I believe these two will be in complete agreement about Israel and the Jews.

255 sparrowlake  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:26:37am

How dare Buchanan blame England and Poland for starting WWII?
He is obviously just covering for the Jews.

256 indythinker  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:27:15am

I haven't paid close attention to Pat Buchanan's career.

If he hadn't jumped the shark before, he has now hurdled the shark, whale, and giant squid all in one leap.

257 calcajun  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:27:34am

re: #211 Alouette

Again, look at the history. The Germans did not start WWI. It was wrong for the Great Powers to have forced Germany to acknowledge blame for it, when everyone had a hand in creating the environment--the powder keg-- that blew up when Franz-Ferdinand was assassinated.

Austria declared war on Serbia on July 28, 1914, and all the alliances pulled Europe into the fray. Germany declared war on France and Serbia on August 3 - in honor of its agreements. France declared war the same day. The UK declared war the next day.

Also, keep in mind the early 20th century of MAD. The country which was able to mobilize its military first or fastest had the advantage. Once the mobilization orders were give (like launching ICBM's) they could not call it off. It was a disaster waiting to happen and no one had thought of a way to create a "fail safe". The fault for WWI was not Germany's alone and it should not have been made to take the rap at Versailles.

258 The Pulchritudinous Patriot  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:27:37am

re: #256 indythinker

I haven't paid close attention to Pat Buchanan's career.

If he hadn't jumped the shark before, he has now hurdled the shark, whale, and giant squid all in one leap.


More like pogo sticked over Moby Dick.

259 alegrias  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:27:45am

Buchanan's now an inside the Beltway captive & attention-starved wannabe who's presidential aspirations in 1996 enlarge his ego.

His divisive bitter speech at the 1992 Republican convention was a major turn-off.

That's why I hate when lizards froth at the mouth on Charles' website--frothing rage is never flattering, and it stays forever on people's minds.

Buchanan's so tone-deaf he or his wife drove up in a big Mercedes Benz to speak to United Auto Workers in Michigan during a primary!

He's just padding his pockets playing the frothing clown on leftist media

260 Maine's Michael  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:28:00am

re: #215 Athos

Yes, MSNBC. Of course.

261 WrathofG-d  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:28:24am

re: #224 calcajun


Oy. that first statement is a doozy! "they didn't lose, they failed to win". No, that is called losing! Furthermore, when other countries can come in and "carve up your country, dismantle your navy..." those are also signs that you have LOST.

personally, I believe you are excusing the Nazis. At best your are correctly pointing out excuses for why the Nazis would start ww2, but in the end that is all they are..EXCUSES!

Germany started WW1 lost, and suffered the consequences.

262 joncelli  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:28:42am

re: #160 zombie

What are we?

The true anti-fascist coalition -- opposed to right fascism, left fascism, and islamofascism.

263 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:29:46am

re: #257 calcajun

Very true. There was no red telephone in those days with a direct line to the other side to stop the disaster.

However, IIRC, the UK did not commit troops until Germany entered Belgium.

264 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:30:07am

re: #251 Spiny Norman

Except that Germany didn't start WWI, the Austrian Emperor did. Kaiser Bill was happy to join in though, convinced that it would be a lark and Over By Christmas™.

That was actually the prevailing sentiment of the day. Many on both sides were convinced the war would be over in a matter of weeks.

265 Maine's Michael  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:30:29am

re: #219 Kosh's Shadow

Hold out a little longer.

See if McCain comes in.

Though it's not looking good.

We've got a perfect storm if historically illiterate young people, guilty elites, and a republican President who has torpedoed his own base and party.

You may want to pick one up now, now that I think it thru.

266 Dad O' Blondes  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:30:33am

re: #160 zombie

What are we?

Devo?

.

267 Alouette  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:31:18am

re: #257 calcajun

Again, look at the history. The Germans did not start WWI. It was wrong for the Great Powers to have forced Germany to acknowledge blame for it, when everyone had a hand in creating the environment--the powder keg-- that blew up when Franz-Ferdinand was assassinated.

There is a school of thought which considers WWI and WWII one long war with a lull in the middle.

268 Occasional Reader  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:31:38am

re: #257 calcajun

that blew up when Franz-Ferdinand was assassinated

Which was little more than a pretext. If Austria had not picked that excuse to make its grab for Serbia, it would have picked something else.

269 wolfie  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:31:46am

re: #219 Kosh's Shadow

This shit bothers me. It's the camel's nose in the tent. We're seeing articles saying that Hitler was justified in a few things. Then, his ideas become more acceptable. It won't be too long before we see articles saying that maybe Hitler went too far, but he was justified in taking action against the Jews.
Should I get a yellow star now and avoid the rush?

One of the key elements in leftist WWII revisionism is that the war caused the Holocaust. It is interesting, though predictable IMO, to see Buchanan pick up the cry.
This is the camel's nose....no, the head....in the tent. Sure, Hitler was anti-semitic and would have been rather naughty to the Jews no matter what. But the extermination camps were merely a response to wartime conditions.
If we had understood him & Germany better, if we had negotiated, if we had accepted Nazi Germany as a full partner in world affairs, Hitler wouldn't have gone off the deep end. He would have had to maintain public respect and would stayed semi-civilized. By isolating him and, worst of all, attacking him, we set loose the whackos. The Holocaust is our fault.

Saddam gassing the Kurds was also our fault. The Killing Fields of Cambodia were our faulkt. It's all our fault.
And our fault is that we do not negotiate. We act like cowboys.

This is already standard fare on the left. With the help of slime like Buchanan, expect academia to work WWII into the scheme.
It's already starting.

270 DeafDog  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:31:49am

In his defense, at least Bucannan didn't blame:

1. George Bush
2. Halliburton
3. Tax Cuts for the rich

271 The Other Les  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:31:56am

re: #222 Athos

Ditto.

272 bolivar  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:32:07am

re: #160 zombie

This is why I resist the label "conservative." I am the polar opposite of Pat Buchanan, and yet he and I (and all of us) are lumped together in the same political category. Whether we like it or not.

Charles is doing a brilliant job of distancing himself (and us his readers) from the Pat Buchanans and the Ben Steins and the Filip DeWinters and the David Dukes and the Ron Pauls -- but the problem is there's still no name for what our political orientation actually is. I'm tired of using "neo-con." And "anti-idiotarian" just hasn't caught on in the mainstream.

What are we?


Zombie, we are American Citizens who actually give a shit. They are getting fewer and fewer. The more WWII Veterans that leave us the more we are distanced from the truth. I hate the leftists for trying to rewrite history.

273 alegrias  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:32:08am

re: #232 Red Ruffansore

* * *
True dat, Chuck Hagel held parties at his McLean, Virginia house for JOhn McCain, and was up in New Hampshire in 2000 when "Maverick" beat Mr. Bush by 19 points.

Then Hagel flipped to Pres. Bush's side & urged McCain to be a team player.

Then Hagel flopped to Cindy Sheehan's position.

274 godfrey  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:33:17am

re: #262 joncelli

That is to say, something like classical liberalism, nineteenth-century liberalism.

275 Maine's Michael  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:33:19am

re: #233 itellu3times

He also has a phenomenally high pitched voice. It's actually quite funny, till you realize what it is he's saying.

276 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:33:23am
277 alegrias  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:33:37am

re: #247 JohnnyReb

* * *
Don't lets give in to fear & trembling please.

We are made of stronger stuff and the times demand strength, not trembling. Trembling comes before appeasement!

278 Endangered in Mass  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:34:04am

re: #250 Occasional Reader

They had to. The Germans were peacable baking bread for the peasant volk when the pesky devils flung themselves in the ovens.

279 Bill Dalasio  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:35:05am

Well, I'm inclined to wonder, would Buchanan support the "right" of MSFT or GE stockholders to mug him? After all, the have about as much right to money he gets paid as Germany had to Danzig/Gdansk. And well, if Pat, refuses to negotiate paying them back his salary, well, it's only because he's proud and defiant. And at that point, well, whatever they opt to do to old "Pitchfork Pat" to get their money back is on him.

280 itsspideyman  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:35:05am

I don't know where to go with this. Like one of the commenter's said, does anyone read history more or do they make it up?

OK, back to the beginning. Hitler was always going to attack Poland because it was always part of his plan to push through and attack Russia. The main attack corridor is through Poland. Austria, Checkslovakia, Poland were all destined to be subjugated by Germany as Hitler pushed west to grab more territory. The excuse that was always used was that there were Germans in each area that desired their connection with their German heritage. Brownshirts were sent in to stirr insurrection, they would shout for help from Germany, and Germany would be "justified" in their action to invade to "protect" the rights of the Germanic citizens in the invaded country.

Read Mien Kamph and The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William Shirer (the definitive book on Germany in World War II) and find out for yourselves.

281 jaunte  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:35:24am

Two other good WW1 background books, focused on the international arms race.
"The Arms of Krupp"
[Link: www.amazon.com...]
and "Dreadnought"
[Link: www.amazon.com...]

282 Maine's Michael  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:35:50am

re: #176 paxnhymn

This isn't life. Its a blog.

The guy just insulted 25% of the posters here in the cruellest way possible, and offended many more.

283 wolfie  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:36:06am

re: #247 JohnnyReb

I am over fifty and have been teaching history in college for over 20 years.
You have every reason to be frightened.

284 Mardukhai  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:36:15am

re: #4 Alouette

Puke-cannon is not a "Conservative," he is a Jew-hating fascist moonbat.

Actually, he's a reactionary.

A reactionary is a nutcase who wants to restore a perhaps mythical past. Franco was a reactionary, not a true fascist. He wanted to restore an absolute monarchy and Roman Catholicism as a state religion. He was generally uninterested in fascist governing principles.

As Bill Buckley wrote, a conservative is someone who simply wants to stand on railroad tracks and order the train of history to stop.

A liberal is simply an idiot.

But all ideologies tend to fall apart when examined closely. The real world rarely responds to ideas taken from an old book.

285 nikis-knight  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:36:19am

re: #207 Killgore Trout

That's the real question here. I suspect that it's because WWII had so much influence on the world we live in today. I think many on the right see Western civilization in decline an by changing the history of what happened and why they hope to advance "right wing" ideology as the cure. They are making progress in changing the history. Look at how many people here believe that evolutionary science led to the holocaust. These ideas are gaining traction.

I don't think anyone here believes that. However, I think there are those that would agree to "Evolutionary science, misapplied to social theory, contributed to Hitler's ideas."

286 Render  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:37:00am

re: #160 zombie

We are violently neutral.

Right down the middle, ready and willing to fight for our right to stay right here. By any means necessary...

===

Charles: Do we still have access to the photos of the Buchanan sit down meeting with DeWinter and Van Hecke from last year? They seem to have disappeared from the web...

===

TRAILING
OFF,
R

287 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:37:01am
288 Athos  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:37:08am

re: #264 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

They were looking at the Franco-Prussian War and fighting the last war as opposed to learning some lessons from the Japanese-Russian War or changing their thinking and tactics to match the greater lethality of the weapons of the day.

289 JohnnyReb  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:37:23am

re: #277 alegrias

* * *
Don't lets give in to fear & trembling please.

We are made of stronger stuff and the times demand strength, not trembling. Trembling comes before appeasement!

Oh not afraid for me, its my son I am truly worried about. I will be long gone and can't help him when I suspect this stuff is going to come to a boil.

290 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:37:32am

re: #246 nikis-knight

Stein was trying to explain Hitler's ideology, agree or disagree.
Pat Buchanan seems to be trying to justify Hitler's actions, in order to attack Bush. What corelation is there?


ben stein interview

I don't have the exact time (I think it's about 18-20 minutes in) but Ben claims in this interview that if Darwinian evolution is true then Hitler was justified in the Holocaust. Also Ben is just the spokesman. The movie was put together by the Discovery Institute (a right wing Christian think tank). Notice this historical revisionism of WWII is only coming from the far right. I really think it's because their world view doesn't work and they need to change history until it does. The Lefties (and assorted paleocons) are trying the same thing with 9-11.

291 incanus  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:37:40am

re: #160 zombie

This is why I resist the label "conservative." I am the polar opposite of Pat Buchanan, and yet he and I (and all of us) are lumped together in the same political category. Whether we like it or not.

Charles is doing a brilliant job of distancing himself (and us his readers) from the Pat Buchanans and the Ben Steins and the Filip DeWinters and the David Dukes and the Ron Pauls -- but the problem is there's still no name for what our political orientation actually is. I'm tired of using "neo-con." And "anti-idiotarian" just hasn't caught on in the mainstream.

What are we?

Ben Stein is a white supremacist who is trying to redefine WWII? He's a nutjob isolationist who wants to move us back to the gold standard? He's a Jew hater? He's a former member of the Klan?

What the fuck is going on here?

292 godfrey  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:38:06am

re: #287 taxfreekiller

That's seeing the twisted thing straight, that is.

293 calcajun  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:38:44am

re: #261 WrathofG-d

(Sigh) Read the plain meaning of my words. First, I'm not an apologist for the Nazis. Second, "failing to win" is their view, not mine. Understanding someone's perspective does not mean you agree with it.

294 alegrias  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:39:17am

Ollie North's "War Stories" on Fox News Cable are wonderful for those who don't want to or can't read long books about wars the US has fought.

295 Charles  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:39:28am

re: #286 Render

Charles: Do we still have access to the photos of the Buchanan sit down meeting with DeWinter and Van Hecke from last year? They seem to have disappeared from the web...

Right here:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

296 zombie  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:39:49am

re: #249 marjoriemoon

Let me give you some advice. You are conservatives. Embrace it. It's who you are.

See? You just did it. Slapped the "conservative" label on me. Whether I like it or not.

I'm a vegetarian environmentalist agnostic in favor of gay rights, I'm "pro-choice," I loathe creationism and school prayers or any religion in public education, I'm anti-racism, anti-fascism, I embrace "world cultures," I've never fired or even touched a gun, I refuse to shop in chain stores or eat in fast food restaurants and I try to never watch TV. The vast majority of conservatives in this country would take one look at that list and deem me a commie pinko hippie. And yet according to you I am a "conservative"? Hell in the 2000 election, I voted for Nader. If I'm a conservative, the term has no meaning.

297 calcajun  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:39:51am

re: #268 Occasional Reader

Remember, there had been a Balkans War only a few years earlier and the Austrians had been looking for a chance to spank Serbia.

298 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:39:56am
299 DoesNotMatter  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:40:11am

What a load of bullshit.

Words fail to describe my loathing for this maggot properly.

This is one of those special person for whom I hope the fundies are right and hell exists.
May he spend an eternity showering. Knowing that he will wake up and shower again.

Whatever deity willing to touch these vermin with human masks: Damn them for their apologizing the most hideous crimes commited* earth yet.

*While there are probably contenders for that title, I'm german.

300 autoexec  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:40:31am

Pat has definitively lost his marbles and common sence he should be institutionalized - but instead he gets to make "commentary" on MSNBC. I can't believe he had an orthodox Jewish campaign manager.

301 alegrias  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:41:19am

Both Ben Stein and Pat Buchanan were speechwriters in Nixon's White House. Since then they've both cashed in on their notoriety.

Just because one has served an administration does not make one forever knowledgeable or expert.

302 WriterMom  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:41:44am

re: #296 zombie

AAAACK zombie DATA DUMP.

TMI

/just kidding

303 Occasional Reader  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:42:33am

re: #296 zombie


I embrace "world cultures,"

Out of curiosity: Please define (as you're using the term).

I've never fired or even touched a gun

Try it, you might like it. Really.

I refuse to shop in chain stores

Then where do you buy your chains?

Anyway, to answer your question, I'd say the center of political gravity at LGF is that we're most of us liberals... in the classic sense of the word.

304 incanus  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:42:44am

re: #201 WrathofG-d

Yawn. Look when you start a world war and lose, you LOSE. Not only the war but other things along with it, such as prestige, land, and money.

There are no "give backs" after taking on the world.

That's perfectly true of WWII. Note how long Germany was occupied afterwards.

However, it's difficult to lay all the blame for WWI at the feet of the Germans. All the great powers of Europe were culpable.

Irrespective of this semantics argument, Buchanan is an idiot. The Poles were clearly not to blame for starting WWII.

305 Render  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:42:51am

re: #296 zombie

We're gonna have to fix that gun thing one of these days.

If you can't shoot, learn to load.

FASTLY,
R

306 Occasional Reader  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:43:27am

re: #297 calcajun

Remember, there had been a Balkans War only a few years earlier and the Austrians had been looking for a chance to spank Serbia.

Yes, exactly. It just irks me when people say that the assassination of the Archduke "caused" WWI; balderdash.

307 calcajun  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:43:29am

re: #267 Alouette

True. Back in the 17th century, no called it the "Thirty-Years War" either until about a century later.

I am beginning to understand a principle in historical studies; you cannot put an event into accurate historical context until the passage of about 100 years.

308 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:43:34am

re: #244 loppyd

The Complaints have been drafted and ready to be filed if the rules committee
does not work something out with FL and MI on 5/31.

She should split from the Democratic Party and run as an independent.
Think McCain would approve of the "extra" competition?

309 Mardukhai  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:44:04am

re: #257 calcajun

You are right. Germany did NOT start WWI.

The Kaiser was on vacation in Norway, sailing the fjords, when the war broke out. (Perhaps he was pining for Norwegian blue parrots.)

The war broke out because the Austrian foreign minister demanded that Serbia pay for murdering his best friend, Archduke Franz Ferdinand, who was one heck of a great guy.

Germany wasn't in on the decision. Russia was behind the Serbian Black Hand assassins, most likely with French support.

The one part of that whole cascade of disaster that was Germany's fault, for real, was its stupid desire to build a high seas fleet, which it didn't need, simply to show up Britain. It badly antagonized the British.

310 autoexec  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:44:14am

re: #301 alegrias

Both Ben Stein and Pat Buchanan were speechwriters in Nixon's White House. Since then they've both cashed in on their notoriety.

Just because one has served an administration does not make one forever knowledgeable or expert.

That is one of the most stupid analogies i've ever heard.

311 JHW  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:44:27am

Some commenters have mentioned the responsibility for WW1. This book places the responsibility squarely on Germany, long planning and looking for an excuse for war long before the assassination at Sarajevo.
Europe's Last Summer

Fromkin's answer to the question posed in his subtitle is succinct: Helmuth von Moltke, imperial Germany's army chief in 1914. In his clearly delineated argument, Fromkin addresses alternative theories about the cause of World War I, but he returns to the decision chain of a small number of officials in Berlin and Vienna. Their destruction of key evidence hampers the precise reconstruction of their actions as does, Fromkin maintains, historians' confusion about what the Germans were licensing in agreeing to whatever chastisement Vienna decided to deliver upon Serbia, on the pretext of avenging the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand. In contrast to theorists of rigid alliances, to whom the notorious "blank check" initiated events almost beyond human control, Fromkin arraigns the actions of Moltke and his colleagues, especially in late July 1914, when the procrastinating Austrians had yet to crush Serbia in war, as Moltke expected. Hijacking the bollixed-up situation, he overrode Kaiser Wilhelm II's resistance, Fromkin concludes, to a deliberate instigation of a second war against Russia and France. The boldness of Fromkin's argument is enough to warrant attention, but his fluidity of expression guarantees a large audience for this book
312 blueboy  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:45:07am

For a man who 'did not want war', Hitler got really fkin good at it didn't he?
Will this gentleman now explain how Holland, Belgium, Denmark and Norway came to be invaded and occupied in spring 1940? What was the beef with Yugoslavia?

313 Czarny_Smok  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:46:49am

re: #93 see bs

Gee Pat, My family lived through the Nazi's invading (and Stalins Russia).
I guess my family should have made way for the "lebensraum" and given all their possessions voluntarily to the jack booted thugs, instead of having the Nazi's "liberate" their property and possessions and force them into labor camps.

Maybe you should take your head out of your ass before speaking, better yet, why don't you never speak again.

Yes, Pat, the Poles failed to negotiate away the land that Germany wanted back, which the Germans had originally taken from the Poles - my, this makes a modicum of sense - if you're tilted heavily towards the left. My family barely survived Hitler’s invasion, my Mother and brother survived the Soviet concentration camps in Arkangelsk, Dad was a Polish officer that managed to escape the Soviets just prior to Katyn, and learned many years later how many of his friends and compatriots were murdered – and he then went back to continue the fight against both the Germans and the Russians. Yes us Poles are a proud and defiant people, we are also compassionate in the extreme, and love freedom – what do you love Pat?

314 JohnnyReb  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:47:02am

re: #312 blueboy

For a man who 'did not want war', Hitler got really fkin good at it didn't he?
Will this gentleman now explain how Holland, Belgium, Denmark and Norway came to be invaded and occupied in spring 1940? What was the beef with Yugoslavia?

How about Greece? Oh wait, he had to invade their cause Mussolini was getting his butt kicked when he tried to conquer them.

315 calcajun  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:47:04am

re: #306 Occasional Reader

It really was the spark that lit the fuse, though. John Keegan wrote a good book on WWI which went into detail over the diplomatic fumbling that followed in the days after the murder. Ironically, Keegan concluded that the telephone, which was meant to have avoided mis-communications, actually exacerbated the situation - people spoke without thinking things through as they would normally do in formal diplomatic communiques.

316 Occasional Reader  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:47:34am

re: #309 Mardukhai

The war broke out because the Austrian foreign minister demanded that Serbia pay for murdering his best friend

Uh, no.

First of all, Serbia didn't murder him.

Secondly, it was just the pretext Austria had been waiting for.

An analogy; imagine if, while on a state visit to Canada, the VP of the US were gunned down by a crazed Canadian moonbat.

The US then demands that the Canadian government take full responsibility for the murder; apologize for it; and... oh yeah, hand over Alberta to us as compensation.

317 littleben  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:47:35am

When Pat worked as a speechwriter for Nixon in the White House together with Safire, he was actually a staunch supporter of Israel and had no record (at least a public record) of anti- Jewish bias.

Then something happened that unleashed this base and vile hatred of Jews. Safire was once interviewed and acknowledged this change in Buchanan's views, but refused to speculate as to the reason, although he gave the impression that he knew of something.

My guess is that he had a personal conflict with someone who was Jewish in the Nixon White House, and he has been looking for revenge since.

On Msnbc, he tries to tie in the "Jewish vote" to every story, most recently with the Bush/Obama appeasement clash. He was foaming
at the mouth about the Jews in West Palm Beach, Miami, Boca etc.
How Msnbc rehabilitated him is a reflection on their alleged "liberalism".

318 The_Vig  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:47:59am

re: #160 zombie

The Whig Party is open I think, what did they stand for again?

319 incanus  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:48:06am

re: #261 WrathofG-d

Germany started WW1 lost, and suffered the consequences.

I'm sorry, but that statement does not stand.

320 offendi  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:48:18am

Wondering if Pat is going to be on next season's "Dancing With The Stars"? There is precedent since they already had Jerry Springer on as a contestant.

Agree with posters here on Buchanan's insatiable thirst for attention. The Jimmy Carter of the Extreme Right.

321 calcajun  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:48:59am

re: #309 Mardukhai

Gee, doesn't that sound like (wait for it) state-sponsored terrorism? There really is nothing new under the sun.

322 Mardukhai  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:49:33am

re: #304 incanus

The Poles were clearly not to blame for starting WWII.

You are right.

And Buchanan is a liar. The Poles did NOT occupy Danzig. It was a Free City, the way it was for centuries. The real argument was over the Polish Corridor between Pomerania and East Prussia. It was largely populated by Germans and was German territory before WWI.

The Polish Corridor was just an excuse. Hitler wanted Poland for two reasons. To acquire land for Greater Germany, and to kill more Jews.

323 godfrey  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:50:50am

re: #321 calcajun

There really is nothing new under the sun

You say it like it's a bad thing.

324 incanus  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:50:53am

re: #290 Killgore Trout

ben stein interview

I don't have the exact time (I think it's about 18-20 minutes in) but Ben claims in this interview that if Darwinian evolution is true then Hitler was justified in the Holocaust. Also Ben is just the spokesman. The movie was put together by the Discovery Institute (a right wing Christian think tank). Notice this historical revisionism of WWII is only coming from the far right. I really think it's because their world view doesn't work and they need to change history until it does. The Lefties (and assorted paleocons) are trying the same thing with 9-11.

So now Christians are re-writing WWII history to serve their plans (what are they?) That's not blood libel?

What the fuck is going on here?

325 BuddyG  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:51:00am

One Nut

"...In 1955 the Russians released several German prisoners who had been present during Hitler's last days, one of whom told of burying Hitler's remains in a bomb crater. Trevor-Roper interviewed the men, and on the basis of their comments deduced that the Russians had exhumed the bodies and examined them in May, 1945. This was confirmed to his satisfaction in the 1960s, when Russian journalists published accounts of the search for Hitler.

One such book published in 1968 was particularly interesting, and it's here we get back to the question of Hitler's missing organs. The book included the report of the autopsy performed on Hitler's bod by Russian pathologists. This contained the startling news that Hitler's "left testicle could not be found either in the scrotum or on the spermatic cord inside the inguinal canal, or in the small pelvis. . . ."

This revelation struck many as suspicious. None of Hitler's doctors or attendants had ever mentioned anything about a missing testicle, and his medical records were silent on the subject. A woman who claimed to have been his lover said he was normally equipped. Moreover, the autopsy report said Hitler's body showed no external wounds, even though all the German witnesses mentioned a shot through the head.

Hitler's World War I company commander, however, offered some support for the Russian finding. He said he'd discovered Hitler's missing testicle as a result of a wartime VD exam.

Questions about the authenticity of the Russian autopsy records were more or less resolved in 1972. Dr. Reidar Sognnaes, a dental expert at the University of California at Los Angeles, compared the Russky data with previous X-rays of Hitler's skull and pronounced the former genuine. (Sognnaes used similar methods to confirm that a body dug up in Berlin was that of Hitler's secretary, Martin Bormann.) So I guess we have to conclude that in some departments, at least, Hitler really wasn't all there..."

326 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:51:19am
327 zombie  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:51:57am
#303 Occasional Reader
re: #296 zombie
I embrace "world cultures,"


Out of curiosity: Please define (as you're using the term).

I just mean that most of the music I listen to and food that I eat and decorations that I fill my home with and places that I visit and books that i read are from or by or about "other countries and cultures" that are not the USA. (E.g. I listen to African music, eat Thai food, etc.) Not as a conscious choice -- things just turned out that way.

I've never fired or even touched a gun


Try it, you might like it. Really.

Doubtful.


I refuse to shop in chain stores


Then where do you buy your chains?

At the Zombie Discount Outlet, of course!

328 Athos  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:52:08am

re: #296 zombie

The true classification goes beyond a simple attempt to fit into a political label. I really think that it comes down to a fundamental level of morality and ethics. We do not all have to agree in all of our moral judgments, but there is a fundamental embracing of individuality, freedom, and liberty around those morals and ethics. We can accept a degree of individual relativism as long as the core comes to the ethics of individuality, freedom, and liberty.

I believe most of us, in our core and despite differences in opinions on some issues, embrace the root and core values of the United States as expressed in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. We see the values of this country as fundamentally good because they are based on individuality, freedom, and liberty.

329 vagabond trader  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:52:09am

re: #290 Killgore Trout

ummm, the left uses their own brand of revising WWII. "Bush is a Nazi," our military are no different than Nazi's,Israel has morphed into Nazi Germany, and all the other idiotic parallels they invent.

330 jamsler  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:53:00am

I sure wish Pat would STFU.

331 Yankee Division Son  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:53:34am

I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but help me out. Since when did Pat Buchanan start smoking crack?

332 Bill Dalasio  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:53:42am

re: #309 Mardukhai

If I'm remembering my history correctly, wasn't there an unconditional guarantee of support from Germany to Austria for any demands they opted to place on Serbia? From what I remember learning (granted this was years ago), it was highly unlikely Austria would have issued the July Ultimatum to Serbia had it not had that blank check for Germany.

333 itsspideyman  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:54:07am

re: #247 JohnnyReb

Johnny Reb, I'm with you. Part of me feels, and I've heard this garbage before by BHO in the campaign, is that the MSM feels there is no justification for going to war with your neighbor. What the historican rewriters have been trying to do, and I've seen another book come out by a British writer, is that the Allies were morally equivilant to the Axis, that our motives were no better than theirs.

This revision in history has been going on for 40 years, from the invasion of bombing of Dresden to the bombing of Hiroshima.

Stripped away from all the rhetoric is one salient question; is there a moral defense for a moral defense? Is it moral for one man to kill another who is bent on the distruction of your life?

While the pointy heads are debating this however, those with no compunctions are strapping bombs to their childrens and scattering lives in their blast.

Make no mistake; all of humanity was at risk in World War II. Not only the right for nations to exist, but people's as well. After the Jews would have been the French, the English, and all the other Allied peoples. Our parents went away and saved the world, and their ungrateful grandchildren are talking moral nonsense.

Thank God for the WWII generation. Thank you FDR, Truman, Patton, McArthur, Nimitz, Eisenhower, Churchill, Halsey, Bradley and all the brave people who died in places far away. We will never repay you for the freedom you secured for us.

334 arier_tzvi  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:54:15am

with the above being said. thankfully the poles didnt give up that area. If they did the shoah could have been much much worse.

335 Render  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:55:28am

Captain B.H. Liddell Hart explained the "causes" of WW1 in the first 33 pages (aka the first chapter) of his book...

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

...The Real War 1914-1918 (c) 1930

Also on the most read before commenting about list for WW1 is Barbara Tuchmans Guns of August.

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

===

JUST
SAYIN,
R

336 itsspideyman  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:55:45am

re: #301 alegrias
Nixon was many things but above all he was a Patriot. Listening to his former speechwriters slinging this hash must have him spinning in his grave.

337 Occasional Reader  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:55:55am

re: #327 zombie

Try it, you might like it. Really.

Doubtful.

Ha. We'll see about that.

I heard a story from a Green Beret once. He and his buddies were somewhere in Central America, training the local troops. They had a live fire range near a beach that was popular with "rich hippie"-type tourists from the US and Europe. The rich hippies started to raise a stink about those horrible guns marring their idyllic paradise. The Green Berets, being think-outside-the-box types, came up with a brilliant idea; they invited the rich hippies over to let them do some shooting. After that, their biggest problem was keeping the rich hippies AWAY from the shooting range!

338 Joel  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:58:07am

Buchanan is a vicious jowly Jew hating turd.

339 Mardukhai  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:58:27am

re: #316 Occasional Reader

First of all, Serbia didn't murder him.

Wrong, the Servian (or Serbian) secret service under the control of the notorious "Col. Apis" did the deed, although neither the Serbian prime minister nor the Serbian king were involved.

Three years later, in Salonika, the Serbs got around to punishing Apis, but he was officially executed on trumped up charges of treason. The Serbian government never admitted his role in the war -- it wanted a free hand to conquer Croatia and Montenegro and re-occupy Macedonia.

340 itsspideyman  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:59:02am

re: #313 Czarny_Smok

Thank God for the Poles, and thank God they are liberated now.

341 sparrowlake  Wed, May 21, 2008 11:59:47am

re: #160 zombie

This is why I resist the label "conservative." I am the polar opposite of Pat Buchanan, and yet he and I (and all of us) are lumped together in the same political category. Whether we like it or not.
I'm tired of using "neo-con." And "anti-idiotarian" just hasn't caught on in the mainstream.
What are we?

I have seen here an essentially anti-Islamofascist coalition of virtually the entire political spectrum save and except for the far-ultra-right and the far-ultra-left. That is what I love about this place.

342 wolfie  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:00:18pm

re: #290 Killgore Trout

There is nothing the least bit "revisionist" about the argument that evolutionary theories influenced Hitler. That is standard and it is undeniable. If you want to pretend that there is no connection, you are the revisionist....and the ignoramus. The fact is that all ideologies of the 19th century sought to call themselves "scientific" and incorporated pop versions of current scientiufic thinking.

Nevertheless:
Influence is NOT causation.
Evolutionary science influenced evolutionary, "progressive" philosophies, and the latter influenced Hitler. (The influence was indirect.)
There is no evidence that Hitler ever read Charles Darwin himself.
The chief guru of racialist "social Darwinism" was Joseph Gobineau, whose theories ante-date The Origin of the Species. Other forms of "social Darwinism" also ante-date Darwin.

You may detest Ben Stein all you like and fight him tooth and nail. That's fine.
You may even decide he is more evil than all the Buchanan and David Dukes in the world. That's fine.
But when you lump him in with the neo-fascists and Hitler apologists you are making a categorical intellectual error.
Not all of your enemies are alike. Not all of them are coming from the same place or even heading in the same direction.

343 godfrey  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:00:33pm

Keep your eye on the ball, not your navel.

344 Athos  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:02:53pm

re: #333 itsspideyman

We will never repay you for the freedom you secured for us.

Perhaps. But by abandoning that freedom and surrendering it away to modern fascists sure is not a way to thank them either. The best we can do to repay them is to fight the same fight today so that we can pass onto our grandchildren the freedom our fathers and grandfathers passed to us.

345 incanus  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:03:56pm

re: #327 zombie

I've never fired or even touched a gun

I'm baffled as to why this is a left/right liberal/conservative issue. Do you believe that guns cause crime?

346 itsspideyman  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:04:07pm

re: #344 Athos

Well said!

347 Mardukhai  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:04:11pm

By the way, my area of expertise is the 1912-1913 Balkan Wars, now largely forgotten, that were really the opening battles of WWI.

If you want to talk about the Races to Salonika and Monastir, and the reasons for the Ottomans' collapse, I'm your man.

(And the lizards are scratching their heads, "Huh?")

348 godfrey  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:04:25pm

re: #344 Athos

It's good to acknowledge the debt, but I think they're not looking for repayment. They're looking for vigilance.

349 Joel  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:04:28pm

The Sudetenland was never a part of Germany either.

350 KSK  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:05:02pm

We may not know a lot of things.

But what Hitler wanted we DO know.
I'm not recommending the read bit it's all there in Mein Kampf.
Everything.

Some people may argue that there's another book which details everything some other people want but you may not shoot the book since that's a... umm crime

351 godfrey  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:05:19pm

re: #347 Mardukhai

Ah, the Ottomans. Have you read anything by Orhan Pamuk?

352 Spiny Norman  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:08:05pm

re: #316 Occasional Reader

Uh, no.

First of all, Serbia didn't murder him.

Secondly, it was just the pretext Austria had been waiting for.

An analogy; imagine if, while on a state visit to Canada, the VP of the US were gunned down by a crazed Canadian moonbat.

The US then demands that the Canadian government take full responsibility for the murder; apologize for it; and... oh yeah, hand over Alberta to us as compensation.

Québécois separatists! I knew it!

Actually, the Serbian Military Intelligence chief and Serbian army officers directly organized the assassination plot, with the backing of Imperial Russia, but did so without the Serbian goverment's approval or knowledge. They felt the Serbian government was weak and subservient puppets of the Austrians. Bosnian Serb separatists carried it out. "Plausible Deniability", you see?

353 Render  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:08:26pm

re: #339 Mardukhai

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

DON'T
FORGET,
R

354 Joel  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:08:40pm

re: #319 incanus

I'm sorry, but that statement does not stand.

yes it does. Germany's rapacious appetite to dominate Europe was the main cause of World War I. Germany;s brutal peace terms to France in 1871, Romania in 1916 and Russia in 1918 showed how vicious Hohenzollern Germany as. I feel Germany got what it deserved at Versailles. Germany was also responsible for importing Lenin into Russia.

355 nikis-knight  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:08:41pm

re: #296 zombie

See? You just did it. Slapped the "conservative" label on me. Whether I like it or not.

I'm a vegetarian environmentalist agnostic in favor of gay rights, I'm "pro-choice," I loathe creationism and school prayers or any religion in public education, I'm anti-racism, anti-fascism, I embrace "world cultures," I've never fired or even touched a gun, I refuse to shop in chain stores or eat in fast food restaurants and I try to never watch TV. The vast majority of conservatives in this country would take one look at that list and deem me a commie pinko hippie. And yet according to you I am a "conservative"? Hell in the 2000 election, I voted for Nader. If I'm a conservative, the term has no meaning.


True you probably aren't. You're a Liberman, a slightly socialist (though not communist) who is deeply patriotic and realizes that the principles of freedom that America was founded on are the best ever devised.
These days, the Democrat party and progressive movement has sacrificed those ideas that are the most important to you (defending America & freedom, standing up to tyrants) in order to gain power to enact some of the other policies that you might prefer.
But only the Republicans, and only some, and conservatives (NOT populists or isolationists) are standing up for those things that are most important. You can ally with the conservatives, and engage in heated debate about those things you listed, and save the country, or join the progressives and rush over the cliff.

I'd agree that Buchannon is not a great example of a conservative (despite often being make a spokesperson of it by the media). But then again, you can never define your label in such a way as to exclude all the nuts.
Because many will take a label, and twist it around their own biases that otherwise don't fit under it, and try to sell that. Like Buchannon and his anti-semitism, or Ron Paul's radical isolationism.
Still, we have to condemn him from his flank (who is to the right or left is a bit silly to try to discern when dealing with non-political lunacy like this stuff) in order to prevent them from attracted like minds and truly changing what the words mean.
Like what has sadly happened to Liberal, Democrat, etc.

356 wolfie  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:09:07pm

re: #303 Occasional Reader

Then where do you buy your chains?

Anyway, to answer your question, I'd say the center of political gravity at LGF is that we're most of us liberals... in the classic sense of the word.

Unfortunately that name has been hijacked, and now it's substitute, "libertarian," has been hijacked by the Libertarian Party.
Many would say that we are conservatives, because the traditional, founding philosophy of this country was liberalism. (To be an American conservative and to be a European one are rather different things.)
We could be reactionaries because we react negatively to leftist "progressivism," but that term has been hijacked to mean "extreme rightist."
I like "traditionalist," particularly when I'm fighting moonbats in education, and "constitutionalist" otherwise. But then no knows what the hell I mean.
At some point I decided that labels are too tricky.

If we are hard to label, it may be because we resist being shoved into an ideological strait jacket.

357 jamsler  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:10:02pm

re: #296 zombie

Zombie, I think that the label that you're looking for is "sane".

That is, it appears to me you don't subscribe blindly to group think. Rationality is your friend. There used to be many like you but not so many now, it seems. A multi-faceted person in a bipolar world. A person who realizes that this is an analog world where digital rules never fully work.

358 Spiny Norman  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:11:04pm

re: #349 Joel

The Sudetenland was never a part of Germany either.

In reality, before Bismarck, there was never any "Germany" as such, but a varied collection of German-speaking Duchies, Principalities and little Kingdoms under the control of various other powers (minor and major).

359 WriterMom  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:11:20pm

re: #338 Joel

Hey Joel. How goes.

360 The_Vig  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:11:34pm

Zombie I am ready to follow you in the new Zombieist party. Or maybe Zombiecrats.

361 Mardukhai  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:11:48pm

No. But I've read a lot of contemporary journalism -- some of the best was by Trotsky, oddly.

I feel kinda sorry for them during this war. Although they should have been kicked out of Europe, the results of the war were far worse than their continued misrule.

The Greeks and the Serbs behaved terribly.

My personal villain was the Greek Prime Minister Venizelos, a brutal murderous fascist with a neat goatee -- and a Liberal!

In 1916, under his rule, the Jewish city of Salonika was burned to the ground. I don't buy his protestations of innocence for a second.

It was an utterly marvelous place, and now the Greeks prefer that it never existed. Few citizens of of contemporary "Thessaloniki" have ever heard of Salonika, and those who have, explode in rage when it is mentioned.

May that city rest in peace.

362 itsspideyman  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:11:54pm

re: #347 Mardukhai

Let er fly! Perhaps the Lizard King himself will set up a different thread? :)

363 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:12:06pm

re: #342 wolfie

That is standard and it is undeniable.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. These ideas have become accepted by many on the right to the point that others with traditional concepts of WWII are now considered revisionist. You've proven my point.

364 The_Vig  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:12:19pm

re: #358 Spiny Norman

It used to be called the Holy Roman Empire. Not very Holy, Not very Roman, and not much of an empire.

365 Mardukhai  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:12:47pm

re: #352 Spiny Norman

Precisely.

366 Joel  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:13:37pm

re: #224 calcajun

They did not lose WWI - they failed to win. Seriously - that's their view to this day. No Allied soldier set foot on German soil in WWI. To have the country carved up, their navy taken and interned, being forced to take the blame for the whole war (when it was the disastrous bungling of the diplomats on all sides) and territory surrendered without conquest was the seedbed of the resentment later nurtured by the Nazi Party.

Really? So I Guess it was Britain, the United States, and France that signed the armistice hat in hand at Compiegne on Nov. 11, 1918. By the way what did you think of the French taking back Alsace-Lorrain from Germany? The Allies were preparing a campaing against Germany in 1919 based on 100 American divisions. Germany saw the writign on the wall, got rid of the oafish Ludendorff and the clownish Kaiser and signed the armistice to prevent total collapse and the Bolshevisation of the Fatherland.

367 markx  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:13:37pm

re: #296 zombie

Cool, to each their own.

But...

...I've never fired or even touched a gun...

?

It won't kill you to fire a gun, in fact, it might save your life someday. Free advice -get a gun.

/constitutional right

368 Former SSG  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:14:19pm

I don't know much about Ottomans... footstools, yes; Ottomans, no.

369 zombie  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:14:21pm

re: #345 incanus

I'm baffled as to why this is a left/right liberal/conservative issue. Do you believe that guns cause crime?

No, I don't believe that guns cause crime. I just never came from a gun-owning family, or lived in a gun culture, and never saw a need for guns in my life, and never felt the slightest attraction to them. I've never had a need for one, so I never got one. Simple as that.

But yes, it is perceived as a liberal/conservative issue. Most moonbats/liberals do think guns are inherently evil, and would like to ban guns entirely, if possible. And this is not for the reason that most NRA-members assume -- to disarm the populace so the government can institute a socialist police state without any opposition -- but rather because most moonbats live in urban environments and in the Big City and the only time one sees guns being used is by criminals robbing or killing victims. So it seems logical to the big-city moonbat that to cut down on the number of guns would cut down on the amount of crime.

I'm not defendeing this belief -- just describing it. Quite common.

370 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:14:37pm
371 markx  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:14:42pm

re: #305 Render

We're gonna have to fix that gun thing one of these days.

If you can't shoot, learn to load.

FASTLY,
R


LOL.

I like your thinking.

372 Joel  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:15:03pm

re: #359 WriterMom

Hey Joel. How goes.

I am well. How are you? When is Olmert going to jail? I hope your Dad is well.

373 sparrowlake  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:15:39pm

re: #345 incanus

I'm baffled as to why this is a left/right liberal/conservative issue. Do you believe that guns cause crime?

Gun control legislation, and the constitutionality thereof, is certainly a left/right liberal/conservative issue. Asking whether guns cause crime is IMO a way of avoiding the real issue.

374 Mardukhai  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:16:27pm

re: #369 zombie

Actually, I kinda agree with you.

375 Joel  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:16:55pm

re: #368 Former SSG

I don't know much about Ottomans... footstools, yes; Ottomans, no.

Jerry Seinfeld
"What's with the Ottoman Empire - an Empire base on putting your feet up on a stool?"

376 itsspideyman  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:17:04pm

re: #361 Mardukhai

Trotsky did one of the definitive books on the Russian Revolution, sprinkled with Communist dogma and plots and subplots of all kinds. Herman Wouk the book mentioned it in
War and Rememberance which is a great novel about WWII.

"Salonika". Where was it located? Just so there will be one more person who will not forget it.

377 alegrias  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:17:54pm

re: #336 itsspideyman

Nixon was many things but above all he was a Patriot. Listening to his former speechwriters slinging this hash must have him spinning in his grave.

* * *
Thank you, yes, Nixon supported Israel in the 1973 war, and the Shah of Iran against Axis of evil aggresors.

Buchanan should retire from public life, he's pathetic now.

378 Former SSG  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:18:04pm

re: #375 Joel

I forgot that one! Thanks for the smile.

379 zombie  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:18:44pm

re: #347 Mardukhai

By the way, my area of expertise is the 1912-1913 Balkan Wars, now largely forgotten, that were really the opening battles of WWI.

If you want to talk about the Races to Salonika and Monastir, and the reasons for the Ottomans' collapse, I'm your man.

(And the lizards are scratching their heads, "Huh?")

Did you ever see the film Pascali's Island? GREAT film about that period of time. Ben Kingsley is unforgettable at an Ottoman spy in Greece just prior to WWI. He keeps sending in his reports to the Sultanate -- and nobody reads them! Highly recommend for pre-WWI Balkans scholars.

380 RickZ  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:19:07pm

And this guy gets face time on tv. Sheesh.

381 nikis-knight  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:19:27pm

re: #355 nikis-knight

Actually, though, I don't know if "slightly socialist" applies in your case, perhaps you prefer "strongly libertarian or such." No offense meant.

382 hazzyday  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:19:58pm

I used to like him on Crossfire. But if there was ever a person who had his head up his behind it would be Pat Buchanan. He has no relevance. I think he is acutally hiding what he really thinks. The crazy stuff he says is just a smoke screen for the crazier stuff he thinks.

383 Joel  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:19:58pm

re: #358 Spiny Norman

In reality, before Bismarck, there was never any "Germany" as such, but a varied collection of German-speaking Duchies, Principalities and little Kingdoms under the control of various other powers (minor and major).

The Czechs after WWII did what the Israelis should have done - they expelled all the Sudeten Germans (unless they could prove anti Fascist sympathies). The Israelis should have doen the same to the Muslim Palestinians.

The Czechs had a terrific army of 35 well trained divisions, they had the Skoda aramemnts factories, they had mountain passes for defense, and they were motivated to fight.

384 incanus  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:20:21pm

re: #354 Joel

yes it does. Germany's rapacious appetite to dominate Europe was the main cause of World War I. Germany;s brutal peace terms to France in 1871, Romania in 1916 and Russia in 1918 showed how vicious Hohenzollern Germany as. I feel Germany got what it deserved at Versailles. Germany was also responsible for importing Lenin into Russia.

I never said the Germans weren't world class pricks; they were. It's disingenuous to lay the blame for THE ENTIRE WAR at their feet as you are doing, however. The Treaty of Versailles was a joke. ALL the powers of Europe deserve blame. Germany "getting what it deserved" started a larger, more terrible war.

Why did Romania sue for terms? They jumped in wanting a piece of the Austria-Hungarian empire (another tottering relic) and got spanked.

The treaty of Brest-Litovsk occurred after the abdication of the Tsar (at least that's my recollection, please correct me if I am mistaken). Russia was another tottering relic that was going down in flames long before WWI started; the Tsar viewed war with Austria as a way to prop up his regime.

We haven't evened mentioned that pinnacle of civilization, the Ottoman Empire.

It's not useful to oversimplify historical events. Nothing good came from WWI and the events preceding it. There's nothing wrong with beating the living piss out of your enemy until he has no will to fight; there is something inhumane about placing your foot on his neck and keeping him there. That is what the Treaty of Versailles did.

385 RickZ  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:21:15pm

re: #105 Charles

This is a deliberate attempt to rehabilitate and redefine the concept of "appeasement."

Carrying water for Obama is hard work.

386 WriterMom  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:21:16pm

re: #372 Joel

Joel, inshallah-it will be soon. That creep is dirty, dirty, dirty. Such a sickening family-such a revolting leader. My Dad is doing great...whachoo reading lately?

387 Biff  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:21:22pm

Regarding Hitler’s demand for the Poles to relinquish Danzig, Buchanan is using what has become the Palestinian definition of “negotiate”, i.e. “give me what I want, or else.”

388 Joel  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:22:52pm

re: #382 hazzyday

Buchanan is following in the footsteps of his father who was an isolationist, anti British, probably anti Semitic, and pro German man. A "Lindberghian".

389 itsspideyman  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:22:58pm

re: #369 zombie

And yet in those areas where it is legal to carry weapons they have the lowest violent rates.

Works worldwide to. In Mexico City where it's a national offense to have a weapon there is the highest gun violence in the world, yet the lowest is in Switzerland, where you are required by law to own a gun (because everyone is required to do some service). I know, different cultures and unfair to compare. Yet here they are as examples.

390 zombie  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:23:15pm

re: #360 The_Vig

Zombie I am ready to follow you in the new Zombieist party. Or maybe Zombiecrats.

The revolution has begun! I have a follower!

391 alegrias  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:24:36pm

re: #382 hazzyday

I used to like him on Crossfire. But if there was ever a person who had his head up his behind it would be Pat Buchanan. He has no relevance. I think he is acutally hiding what he really thinks. The crazy stuff he says is just a smoke screen for the crazier stuff he thinks.

* * *
Georgetown University's got folks like Buchanan teaching & taking money from the middle east to set up chairs & departments & lectures to spout this kind of stuff.

They we wonder why our State Department which is full of Georgetown Foreign Service school people, is so rotten and anti-US and anti-our allies.

Pope Benedict should cut off their funds for fraternizing with the enemy.

392 incanus  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:24:50pm

re: #369 zombie

No, I don't believe that guns cause crime. I just never came from a gun-owning family, or lived in a gun culture, and never saw a need for guns in my life, and never felt the slightest attraction to them. I've never had a need for one, so I never got one. Simple as that.

But yes, it is perceived as a liberal/conservative issue. Most moonbats/liberals do think guns are inherently evil, and would like to ban guns entirely, if possible. And this is not for the reason that most NRA-members assume -- to disarm the populace so the government can institute a socialist police state without any opposition -- but rather because most moonbats live in urban environments and in the Big City and the only time one sees guns being used is by criminals robbing or killing victims. So it seems logical to the big-city moonbat that to cut down on the number of guns would cut down on the amount of crime.

I'm not defendeing this belief -- just describing it. Quite common.

For what it's worth, I fully support your decision to not own a gun, just as I support the decisions of others to own them. I don't own guns; wish I did but there are more important things to spend money on at the moment.

Thanks for replying; it's always interesting to get some insight into why things are said.

Not going to comment on your bolded statement other than to say, it's not logical to assume that gun laws prevent crime because criminals tend to not obey laws.

393 Joel  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:25:04pm

re: #386 WriterMom

Joel, inshallah-it will be soon. That creep is dirty, dirty, dirty. Such a sickening family-such a revolting leader. My Dad is doing great...whachoo reading lately?

Reading a ffew books
"Retribution" - the final year of the War against Japan by Max Hastings, and I started reading Kafka since I might go to Prague in November so I picked up the Metamorphosis and The Trial. I hope things are well with you and that the creep Olmerde spends time in prison with his lunatic family. I hope that Haim Ramon also goes away forever.

394 WriterMom  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:25:24pm

re: #384 incanus

there is something inhumane about placing your foot on his neck and keeping him there. That is what the Treaty of Versailles did

That's a strange way of looking at it.

395 calcajun  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:25:24pm

re: #366 Joel

As I said --it's theirview; not mine. You're right in that the bean counters in Berlin saw that there was no hope of winning (as they defined it). Their economy was in the crapper; the people were starving (remember, the UK blockaded them, too) social unrest was growing. The smartest move was to seek and armistice (which is not synonymous with surrender) and try for the best deal at the peace conference. After all, they counted on Wilson and his Fourteen Points in insuring they would get a fair deal. Little did they know how screwed they would be (face it--they were).

This is a fact that people ignore in WWII studies. The Germans knew the war was lost as early as 1943, yet they fought on, primarily because Hitler was at the helm. But, a lesser known fact is that what happened at Versailles acted as something of a disincentive in WWII among the German General Staff. Even if the July 20th plot worked, there is some question as to whether the war would have ended at that point.

396 alegrias  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:26:51pm

re: #383 Joel

The Czechs after WWII did what the Israelis should have done - they expelled all the Sudeten Germans (unless they could prove anti Fascist sympathies). The Israelis should have doen the same to the Muslim Palestinians.

The Czechs had a terrific army of 35 well trained divisions, they had the Skoda aramemnts factories, they had mountain passes for defense, and they were motivated to fight.

* * *
Ok, but where were these great divisions when the Soviets rolled in in 1968? So much for Dubcek's Prague Spring. Was Dubcek talking hope & change? Cause Czechs sure rolled over for the USSR.

397 wolfie  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:27:01pm

re: #296 zombie

See? You just did it. Slapped the "conservative" label on me. Whether I like it or not.

I'm a vegetarian environmentalist agnostic in favor of gay rights, I'm "pro-choice," I loathe creationism and school prayers or any religion in public education, I'm anti-racism, anti-fascism, I embrace "world cultures," I've never fired or even touched a gun, I refuse to shop in chain stores or eat in fast food restaurants and I try to never watch TV. The vast majority of conservatives in this country would take one look at that list and deem me a commie pinko hippie. And yet according to you I am a "conservative"? Hell in the 2000 election, I voted for Nader. If I'm a conservative, the term has no meaning.

Well, maybe it does....in the specifically American tradition!
Last July 4th my family just happened to be in Ephrata, PA, the site of a weird anabaptist commune. (An interesting place for music lovers, BTW, because the first music published in America was from there!) After touring the cloister, we went to a noon mass and had a fancy lunch.....something my Bolivian mother does every year to celebrate her naturalization. Next door to the restaurant on one side was a clingy gun and hunting store; on the other side there was the Dancing Crane Oriental Medicine office.
Only in America! It was perhaps the most moving July 4th I've ever experienced.
If you want a label, try classical or "old-fashioned" liberal...or just use liberal and then point out the word has been stolen by leftists.

And BTW, one of things that makes you a liberal (I think) is that you don't own a gun, but don't spit on people who do; you don't shop in chain stores, but you don't sneer at the riff raff who do or must; you are a vegetarian, but I'll bet you won't even think of throwing blood on me if I eat a Big Mac.

398 Charles  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:27:36pm

News about Pat's European associates:

[Link: lancasteruaf.blogspot.com...]

399 WriterMom  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:27:40pm

re: #393 Joel

Prague is lovely. I was there a couple of years ago. However, be prepared to see ghosts. I mean it. It freaked me out actually...the Jewish cemetary and quarter a tourist attraction, and a concentration camp a hop skip and a jump away from downtown...the city is beautiful. We paid a taxi driver to drive us around for the day to all the hot spots, it was not very expensive.

400 Occasional Reader  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:28:10pm

zombie, I am certainly not demanding you own a gun if you don't want to; but I offer my friendly suggestion that you learn the basics of safely firing one. Think of it as a "life skill". You'll probably never need to know it; but it you ever do, BOY will you be glad you learned.

(BTW, I did not come from a gun-owning family or "gun culture", either... you might be surprised how fun it is once you try it.)

401 incanus  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:28:41pm

re: #373 sparrowlake

Gun control legislation, and the constitutionality thereof, is certainly a left/right liberal/conservative issue. Asking whether guns cause crime is IMO a way of avoiding the real issue.

I'm trying to discover why zombie has the views she does, and discuss them. I'm certainly not attacking zombie (please see my reply).

What is the real issue for you? What's your position on gun control?

402 wolfie  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:28:45pm

re: #347 Mardukhai

By the way, my area of expertise is the 1912-1913 Balkan Wars, now largely forgotten, that were really the opening battles of WWI.

If you want to talk about the Races to Salonika and Monastir, and the reasons for the Ottomans' collapse, I'm your man.

(And the lizards are scratching their heads, "Huh?")

COOL !

403 kansas  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:29:16pm

Hitler’s invasion of Poland was also perfectly understandable, predictable given the Poles’ refusal to negotiate. surrender.

404 incanus  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:30:20pm

re: #394 WriterMom

That's a strange way of looking at it.

It is? We should have kept Germany and Japan rubble-strewn cesspools after WWII?

405 Occasional Reader  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:30:57pm

re: #399 WriterMom

Prague is lovely.

Indeed. Reasonably-priced, too (although my info might be a little outdated on that). The city's like a living museum. And of course, I found the US$18/hour Thai massage place (not hard to do, they had flyers up all over)... fantastic! I hasten to add, this was perfectly respectable massage therapy, not "massage" [wink-wink].

406 nikis-knight  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:31:00pm

re: #403 kansas

Hitler’s invasion of Poland was also perfectly understandable, predictable given the Poles’ refusal to negotiate. surrender.

In the same way that Hitler never wanted war. He just wanted people to surrender to him. When they didn't, he happy to send in the tanks though.

407 Joel  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:31:09pm

re: #384 incanus

I
It's not useful to oversimplify historical events. Nothing good came from WWI and the events preceding it. There's nothing wrong with beating the living piss out of your enemy until he has no will to fight; there is something inhumane about placing your foot on his neck and keeping him there. That is what the Treaty of Versailles did.


I would like to ask the French in 1871 (Germany took Alscae-Lorraine) and the Danes in 1864 (Germany took Schleswig-Hosltein from them) about that. Germany was a war like nation ever since the defeat of Napoleon. The biggest mistake the Allies made was not making the General Staff sign the armistice terms at Compiegne- they made a civilian government do that thus leading to the "stabbed in the back" nonsense that the Nazis used. Notice that in 1945 they made Field Marshals Keitel and Jodl sign the capitulation.

"The Hun is always at your throat or at your feet"

Winston Churchill

408 WriterMom  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:31:30pm

re: #404 incanus

How does rebuilding Germany and Japan equal rubbing their noses in it and stomping them on the neck? I may have misunderstood you. I thought you meant that the way Germany was treated at Versaille was keeping a foot stomped on their neck.

409 incanus  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:31:38pm

re: #396 alegrias

* * *
Ok, but where were these great divisions when the Soviets rolled in in 1968? So much for Dubcek's Prague Spring. Was Dubcek talking hope & change? Cause Czechs sure rolled over for the USSR.

1937 != 1968

410 yma o hyd  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:32:39pm

re: #311 JHW

Two thigns to add to this;
* it was Nicholas, tsar of all Russia, who mobilised his troups first, not Kaiser Willy;
* the British were thoroughly engaged with the - perennial - 'Irish question' and had taken their eyes thoroughly off the ball in regard to what happened in Europe. The murder of archduke Franz Ferdinand and his wife hardly impinged on the minds of the FOreign Office.

Oh - and lets not forget that France and Russia had a secret treaty, for years, for mutual support against the German Empire. This was worked out after Bismarck was booted out by young Kaiser Willy ... who at the start of the war was, for all his bluster and posing, firmly under the control of the Generalstab, our good friends, Generals Hindenburg and Ludendorff.
The one became president of the Weiamr Republic, right at the end - his death gave Hitler the final push to grab all remaining power, and Ludendorff was involved in the right-wing power struggle in the 1920, also on the side of the then small Nazi party ...

Aint history fascinating ...

411 WriterMom  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:33:01pm

re: #405 Occasional Reader

I also felt the remnants of communism everywhere. Dark, block like buildings. The people in the suburbs were a bit dour-in the city, quite nice.

412 calcajun  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:33:15pm

re: #404 incanus

The reason why we did not (there were calls to completely dismantle all German industries and make it an agrarian nation) was we knew what lurked in the east and we needed to make Germany and Japan into what the west always wanted them to be --bulwarks against the communists.

413 WriterMom  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:34:23pm

This is the history slut thread!

414 WriterMom  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:34:34pm

I mean that in a good way obviously.

415 Occasional Reader  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:34:34pm

re: #406 nikis-knight

In the same way that Hitler never wanted war. He just wanted people to surrender to him.

And then march peacefully into the gas chambers... don't forget that part. The man was all about peaceful conflict resolution.

/

416 Render  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:34:35pm

re: #376 itsspideyman

Greece.

[Link: www.ushmm.org...]

[Link: www.edwardvictor.com...]

[Link: memorabilia.homestead.com...]

[Link: www.britannica.com...]

FAMOUS
UNKNOWNS,
R

417 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:35:33pm

re: #342 wolfie
Ah, here's the link I was looking for...
Lists of Banned Books, 1932-1939


6. Writings of a philosophical and social nature whose content deals with the false scientific enlightenment of primitive Darwinism and Monism


The Nazis banned Darwin's books and burned them. Stein's Holocaust theory is popular in some circles but it's still nonsense.

418 incanus  Wed, May 21, 2008 12:35:51pm

re: #408 WriterMom

How does rebuilding Germany and Japan equal rubbing their noses in it and stomping them on the neck? I may have misunderstood you. I thought you meant that the way Germany was treated at Versaille was keeping a foot stomped on their neck.

The Treaty of Versailles demanded reparations of Germany for starting WWI.. This kept the country poor and in a state of turmoil, which led to the uprise of Communist cells and later, the Nazi party. The treaty most certainly was a foot on Germany's neck, held th