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McCain Throws Hagee and Parsley Under The Bus

Thu, May 22, 2008 at 7:51:25 pm PDT

It wasn’t hard to see this coming: McCain rejects pastor’s endorsement.

STOCKTON, Calif. - Republican John McCain on Thursday rejected endorsements from two influential but controversial televangelists, saying there is no place for their incendiary criticisms of other faiths.

McCain rejected the months-old endorsement of Texas preacher John Hagee after an audio recording surfaced in which the preacher said God sent Adolf Hitler to help Jews reach the promised land. McCain called the comment “crazy and unacceptable.”

He later repudiated the support of Rod Parsley, an Ohio preacher who has sharply criticized Islam and called the religion inherently violent.

McCain issued a statement Thursday afternoon announcing his decision about Hagee. “Obviously, I find these remarks and others deeply offensive and indefensible, and I repudiate them. I did not know of them before Reverend Hagee’s endorsement, and I feel I must reject his endorsement as well,” he said.

Later, in Stockton, he told reporters: “I just think that the statement is crazy and unacceptable.”

Then in an interview with The Associated Press, McCain said he rejected Parsley’s support, too. “I believe there is no place for that kind of dialogue in America, and I believe that even though he endorsed me, and I didn’t endorse him, the fact is that I repudiate such talk, and I reject his endorsement,” McCain told the AP.

Barack Obama says Hagee’s comments were “mind-boggling,” a word that apparently never occurred to him during the 20 years he sat listening to Rev. Jeremiah Wright.

Obama, who was campaigning in Florida, said that in national politics it’s easy to find people who have said or done offensive things.

“John McCain has to deal with Hagee, who said something that is mind-boggling. I don’t attribute those statements to John McCain. Nobody thinks McCain believes that stuff,” Obama said.

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622 comments

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1 Adrenalyn  Thu, May 22, 2008 7:52:09pm

well, so what ?

2 Adrenalyn  Thu, May 22, 2008 7:52:34pm

at least 50% of what McCain stands for I can tolerate, versus 0% for the left

3 rawmuse  Thu, May 22, 2008 7:52:41pm

Et tu, McCain?

4 Adrenalyn  Thu, May 22, 2008 7:52:54pm

plus, we need less religion in this world

5 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 22, 2008 7:53:11pm

I'm glad he tossed Hagee. This Parsley guy, I don't know so much about. If all he said was that Islam was violent... well, there does seem to be some evidence to that effect, no?

6 pingjockey  Thu, May 22, 2008 7:53:18pm

Damn roads will be to slick to drive on, what with all the blood from all these folks being tossed under buses.

7 Sharmuta  Thu, May 22, 2008 7:53:37pm
McCain rejected the months-old endorsement of Texas preacher John Hagee after an audio recording surfaced in which the preacher said God sent Adolf Hitler to help Jews reach the promised land. McCain called the comment “crazy and unacceptable.”

Not often do I say this, but John Mccain is 100% correct.

8 Adrenalyn  Thu, May 22, 2008 7:53:45pm

but the MSM will make full political hay of this
they will accuse McCain of Swift-Boating his own pastor

9 Crusader Rabbit  Thu, May 22, 2008 7:54:23pm
Barack Obama says Hagee’s comments were “mind-boggling,” a word that apparently never occurred to him during the 20 years he sat listening to Rev. Jeremiah Wright.

Of course not. Hatred spewed by neo-marxists isn't the least bit mind-boggling.

10 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, May 22, 2008 7:54:42pm

Dear Politicians,

Please do background checks on people who endorse you before you respond to their endorsements with enthusiasm. It's the least you could do, after spending our money.

Thank you,

The People

/awful lot of people getting thrown under buses in this campaign, eh?

11 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, May 22, 2008 7:55:19pm
12 Adrenalyn  Thu, May 22, 2008 7:55:25pm

all McCain has to do now
is just keep his mouth shut

no more campaigning
no Q & A sessions
no debates

Hussein-Obama will never win unless McCain kicks a puppy on live TV

13 freetoken  Thu, May 22, 2008 7:55:35pm

re: #6 pingjockey

Fortunately the body has been raised enough to allow for all the bodies passing underneath.

14 HelloDare  Thu, May 22, 2008 7:55:38pm

No waffling?

15 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, May 22, 2008 7:56:07pm
McCain rejected the months-old endorsement of Texas preacher John Hagee after an audio recording surfaced in which the preacher said God sent Adolf Hitler to help Jews reach the promised land.

This fella better hope I never meet him. I'm ashamed to share territory with him.

16 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 22, 2008 7:57:04pm

(Stray thought; if we press the heart button and then the "!" button, that should send a signal to Lizardoid Central Command that "I NEED CPR IMMEDIATELY".)

Anyway.

Naturally the MSM will continue playing the equivalence game, and hinting that Hagee was "McCain's pastor" in the same way that Wright was Obama's.

17 The Other Les  Thu, May 22, 2008 7:57:12pm

re: #6 pingjockey

Damn roads will be to slick to drive on, what with all the blood from all these folks being tossed under buses.

You just need a big enough bus.

18 jcm  Thu, May 22, 2008 7:57:16pm

I'm sorry to announce the election '08 bus cannot proceed any farther. Too many under the bus, not enough on it.

We'll have to start the '08 process over again.


HUNTER! HUNTER! HUNTER! HUNTER! HUNTER! HUNTER! HUNTER! HUNTER! HUNTER! HUNTER! HUNTER! HUNTER! HUNTER! HUNTER! HUNTER! HUNTER!

19 Sharmuta  Thu, May 22, 2008 7:57:20pm

re: #11 song_and_dance_man

But in hagee's case- he absolutely should.

20 pingjockey  Thu, May 22, 2008 7:57:27pm

Hey, John! I'm fairly computer literate and could use a job! Let me be your Google dude. Don't these candidates have any one who can do even a cursory background check? Obamaramas a special case, he sat in that church and directly heard what the Right Rev. Wrong was spewing.

21 pingjockey  Thu, May 22, 2008 7:58:18pm

re: #13 freetoken
Sweet! Make one helluva good camper.

22 jaunte  Thu, May 22, 2008 7:59:06pm

re: #7 Sharmuta

He forgot the "bull-goose loony" part, though.

23 Adrenalyn  Thu, May 22, 2008 7:59:20pm

this is good news from McCain
let's hope he picks a good running mate
I am not impressed with his rumored initial picks
as being something that will help him
Romney - too religious and the get your own planet thing
Jindal - too young and inexperienced
the other one, Crist is too unknown for me to make a judgement on
but leave it to the MSM to bring up his "religious" name (sort of)
and say that McCain is a god-monger or something sinister
they will stoop that low

24 freetoken  Thu, May 22, 2008 7:59:25pm

re: #17 The Other Les

Or one with enough torque to plow over anything...

25 songbird  Thu, May 22, 2008 7:59:28pm

I think McCain is trying to throw his natural constituency under the bus and is pandering for some leftwing love.

26 MandyManners  Thu, May 22, 2008 7:59:30pm

It's a bus race!

27 Milk Toast Intolerant  Thu, May 22, 2008 7:59:44pm
Barack Obama says Hagee’s comments were “mind-boggling,” a word that apparently never occurred to him during the 20 years he sat listening to Rev. Jeremiah Wright.

Obama = Hypocrite

McCain = too chicken to take a chance with Parsley. I can understand denouncing Hagee for the Hitler comment, but most of what Parsley said was right on the money; that Islam is evil.

28 experiencedtraveller  Thu, May 22, 2008 7:59:45pm

McCain is a fine American and a true patriot.

29 songbird  Thu, May 22, 2008 7:59:59pm

.....not that I'm a Hagee or Parsley fan, mind you.

30 pingjockey  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:00:06pm

re: #17 The Other Les

Merde!

31 MandyManners  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:00:08pm

re: #25 songbird

He should throw Hagee under the bus for his statement. It's despicable.

32 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:00:35pm
33 Killian Bundy  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:00:54pm

Boy, I sure hope there's nothing wrong with McCain.

/this holiday weekend health records dump is making me nervous

34 J.S.  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:00:55pm

Hagee now says he's withdrawing his endorsement of McCain...(much of this strikes me as ridiculous...and as overt political maneuvering...transparent...) The bottom line though is that the "problematic" preachers endorsing McCain come no where near to the utter offensiveness of Rev Wright and his ranting sermons spewing hatred of America and the fact that Obama for decades so no problem with it. The Rev Wright issue (and how it relates to a potential President of the United States) is qualitatively different from the Hagee and Parsley spews (which are a tangent, not integral, to McCain)...

35 songbird  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:01:05pm

re: #31 MandyManners

He should throw Hagee under the bus for his statement. It's despicable.

I totally agree. Very religiously bigoted.

36 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:01:10pm

Pesky preachers.

37 jcm  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:01:13pm

re: #26 MandyManners

It's a bus race!

Death Bus Race 2008

38 Sarge1984  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:02:54pm

re: #36 Killgore Trout

Thanks, Killgore. I was hoping for a good smile out of this thread.

39 The Other Les  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:02:56pm

re: #24 freetoken

Or one with enough torque to plow over anything...

If I recall correctly the eponymous vehicle in The Big Bus was nuclear powered.

40 Mich-again  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:03:21pm

Speaking of buses.

Bus plunges rival terrorist attacks for death toll of civilians. About one mass killing a week. Like this one from Nepal or this story from India or from China

41 livefreeor die  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:03:40pm

re: #26 MandyManners

It's a bus race!

I bet Billy Jeff has some bus throwing left in him.

42 savage_nation[deleted]  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:03:52pm
43 songbird  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:04:15pm

I was so glad to see the yellow buses leave our school today. And tomorrow is my last day! Hurrah!

44 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:04:18pm

re: #36 Killgore Trout

Pesky preachers.

Who will rid me of these meddlesome preachers?

We would have gotten away with it, too, if it hadn't been for those meddling preachers!

--Thomas a Beckett Meets Scooby-Doo (work in progress)

45 jcm  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:05:01pm

re: #24 freetoken

Or one with enough torque to plow over anything...

My boys love that bus, they always want me to pull up videos of that thing.

46 Roger  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:05:55pm

Well McCain you won't have to muster the energy to reject my endorsement/vote.

47 Sharmuta  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:06:01pm

re: #32 song_and_dance_man

Why is that?!

the preacher said God sent Adolf Hitler to help Jews reach the promised land.

Because this comment is disgusting, that's why.

49 Milk Toast Intolerant  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:07:04pm

Anyone has this tape in which Hagee said God used Hitler to help Jews get to the promised land? I would love to hear it, just because I don't trust the media.

50 shortboard surfer  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:08:03pm

moral equivalence.

Brocko is to his pastor as McCain is to his pastor. All pastors are the same. Nothing to see here; move on.

51 MandyManners  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:08:23pm

re: #37 jcm

Reminds me of Santa Fe in Denver.

52 Ojoe  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:08:49pm

re: #4 Adrenalyn

No, I think we need better religion.

The human will always want religion.

53 autoexec  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:08:50pm

I think i can play devil's advocate here and say the statement about Hitler was most probably more bad choice of words than crazy theology. Obama has some nerve to speak out about this. Obama spent freaking 20 years in a Farakkhan worshipping church, the same Farrakhan who said Hitler was a very great man. What a phoney hypocrite.

54 DesertSage  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:08:55pm

Barack H. Obama must be stopped.
I don't want to live in a Marxist country.

55 MandyManners  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:09:08pm

re: #41 livefreeor die

I bet Billy Jeff has some bus throwing left in him.

Whom would he toss?

56 livefreeor die  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:10:03pm

re: #49 Milk Toast Intolerant

Anyone has this tape in which Hagee said God used Hitler to help Jews get to the promised land? I would love to hear it, just because I don't trust the media.

Between this preacher and that Seattle newspaper and some of the moonbats, this week has degenerated into a Celebrate Hitler theme in the media.

57 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:10:17pm
58 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:10:18pm

Hasn't Hagee also made some "Catholic church = whore" remarks, too? Or am I confused?

59 savage_nation[deleted]  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:11:46pm
60 Ojoe  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:11:56pm
61 livefreeor die  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:11:58pm

re: #55 MandyManners

Whom would he toss?

That might be a tough one for him. Of course, he never personally does the tossing. It would be a bus accident or a suicide by bus.

62 harley2002  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:12:13pm

McCain is the reason I will not vote in 28 years. Sorry can't vote for this hypocrite. Let him register some illegals to vote for him

63 Tarkus289  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:12:17pm

Or a third world economy.

64 freetoken  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:12:23pm

re: #58 Occasional Reader

A not uncommon statement to be found among pre-millenial preachers/believers .

65 Charles  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:12:34pm

re: #58 Occasional Reader

Hasn't Hagee also made some "Catholic church = whore" remarks, too? Or am I confused?

No, you're right, that was Hagee. He's an "end times" Christian Zionist.

66 Tarkus289  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:12:44pm

Or a third rate military.

67 Ojoe  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:12:56pm

re: #58 Occasional Reader

That remark has been going around at least since the days of Martin Luther.

68 Sarge1984  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:13:12pm

re: #53 autoexec

No, I don't think it was a bad choice of words, I think it was one individual truthfully voicing his beliefs. And, although I don't condone the Obama's church, it wasn't a "Farrakhan worshiping church," it was a deluded, racist pastor spewing hate and building a congregation on the foundations of racism with a facade of "this is how blacks worship."

69 livefreeor die  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:13:19pm

re: #60 Ojoe

Cats that look like hitler. (destroy with mocking)

The cat at the top is creepy-it has the same sort of jawline and look Hitler has in some of the old war footage.

70 jaunte  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:13:33pm

re: #58 Occasional Reader

Here's a video:
[Link: www.getreligion.org...]

71 Attaboid  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:13:45pm

re: #30 pingjockey

You speak french!

72 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:14:00pm

re: #65 Charles

No, you're right, that was Hagee. He's an "end times" Christian Zionist.

Then McCain should back the bus up over him. Metaphorically speaking, of course.

73 FrogMarch  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:14:11pm

But big homogeneous DNC media has to play gotcha whenever it has the opportunity.

74 Ojoe  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:14:24pm

re: #69 livefreeor die

Maybe some are photoshopped, I think

75 livefreeor die  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:14:32pm

Does Ron Paul throw people under a bus or his blimp?

76 The Other Les  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:14:32pm

re: #58 Occasional Reader

Hasn't Hagee also made some "Catholic church = whore" remarks, too? Or am I confused?

That's Jack T. Chick. The Catholic Church the the Whore of Babylon.

[Link: www.chick.com...]

77 Timbre  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:14:34pm
"I find these remarks and others deeply offensive and indefensible..."


The 'ole Johari window applies quite well here: a comment can be offensive and indefensible; it can be offensive and defensible; it can be unoffensive and indefensible; it can be unoffensive and defensible. And of course, it depends upon whom is being offended and whom have no brains to process facts.

78 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:14:41pm

re: #64 freetoken

A not uncommon statement to be found among pre-millenial preachers/believers .

Doesn't make it any less hateful or nuts.

79 rawmuse  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:14:55pm

re: #24 freetoken

Or one with enough torque to plow over anything...

Ain't America grand?

80 Shortboard Surfer  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:14:59pm

Hagee's comments are irrelevant, because he was not McCain's mentor for 20 years. No moral equivalence here.

81 Milk Toast Intolerant  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:15:02pm

re: #62 harley2002

McCain is the reason I will not vote in 28 years. Sorry can't vote for this hypocrite. Let him register some illegals to vote for him

I would strongly discourage you from not voting. Just about anyone is better than Obama. Couple years ago, I swore I'd never vote for Hillary, but since the emergence of Obama's questionable judgements, relationships with terrorists and hate mongers, I'd say Hillary looks better than him by the day.

82 pegcity  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:15:16pm

ill take the 5 million dollar donation from hagee to israel as a decent apology

83 Tarkus289  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:15:23pm

re: #75 livefreeor die

He would have to throw himself under the bus for some of the stupid things he has said.

84 MandyManners  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:15:40pm

re: #61 livefreeor die

That might be a tough one for him. Of course, he never personally does the tossing. It would be a bus accident or a suicide by bus.

Good points.

85 pingjockey  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:16:17pm

re: #71 Attaboid
Non! Jest about used up all I know!

86 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:16:19pm

re: #75 livefreeor die

Does Ron Paul throw people under a bus or his blimp?

Oh, the humanity!

87 The Other Les  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:16:25pm

re: #75 livefreeor die

Does Ron Paul throw people under a bus or his blimp?

He's ex-Ari Force so I would say out the blimp.

88 joecitizen  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:16:43pm

re: #62 harley2002

McCain is the reason I will not vote in 28 years. Sorry can't vote for this hypocrite. Let him register some illegals to vote for him

welcome to obamanation then...leave your money and safety in His hands..

89 livefreeor die  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:16:44pm

re: #84 MandyManners

Good points.

I think he has two finalists for first under the bus.

90 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:17:20pm

I'm very late to the thread(s). Would someone please say something really really offensive so I can try out the new report bat?

91 Tarkus289  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:17:48pm

re: #90 unrealizedviewpoint

Hike.

92 MandyManners  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:17:53pm

re: #86 Occasional Reader

Oh, the humanity!

Dagnabit. Ya' beat me to it.

93 savage_nation[deleted]  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:18:02pm
94 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:18:16pm

While I do applaud Senator McCain for taking the high road regarding religious extremism, he'll need to back up his words by insisting that Islam reject those elements within their religion as well, the ones that believe that any cost in blood of the infidel is worth the ummah.

This is not radical religious thought, it's simply an accurate assessment of the situation that we face at this moment.

Until Islam is willing to reform, or a large portion of the religion is willing to break away from that theology toward one that respects all of mankind, no matter what McCain says, it's the same old problem.

Only by splintering moderate Islam entirely from those who refuse to conform to the dictates of normative society across the planet will the question not forever remain.

That may be the religious equivalent of "throwing under the bus", but it simply has to be done if we are to eventually achieve peace on this planet.

However, if the splintering results in a large minority or majority rejecting moderation for terror, then at least we will have weaned those who do not wish destruction upon us from those who essentially are saying to us: "Kill us, or you will be killed."

Paraphrasing President Bush's own thoughts (one upon a time...), those who are not with us are the problem.

95 wolfie  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:18:18pm

re: #58 Occasional Reader

Hasn't Hagee also made some "Catholic church = whore" remarks, too? Or am I confused?

A lot of Protestants in the past have identified the "whore of Babylon" in Revelation with Rome. It's an oldie. I would guess that Hagee preached or wrote something about the End Times that gave that view.

96 MandyManners  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:18:31pm

re: #89 livefreeor die

I think he has two finalists for first under the bus.

Who?

97 autoexec  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:18:33pm

re: #68 Sarge1984


No, I don't think it was a bad choice of words, I think it was one individual truthfully voicing his beliefs.

All religious folks believe everything is from God, including Hitler. The problem seems to be people think that he meant Hitler himself was good - which i highly doubt.

And, although I don't condone the Obama's church, it wasn't a "Farrakhan worshiping church," it was a deluded, racist pastor spewing hate and building a congregation on the foundations of racism with a facade of "this is how blacks worship."

Farrakhan the only man featured 4 times in their magazine + Pastor Farrakhan's best friend + holy covenant with Farrakhan = Farrakhan worhipping church in my book.

98 rawmuse  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:18:34pm

re: #90 unrealizedviewpoint

I'm very late to the thread(s). Would someone please say something really really offensive so I can try out the new report bat?

President Barack Obama

99 jaunte  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:18:40pm

Hagee's statement to prnewswire:
[Link: www.prnewswire.com...]

100 pingjockey  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:18:51pm

re: #90 unrealizedviewpoint
Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries.

101 MandyManners  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:18:58pm

re: #90 unrealizedviewpoint

I'm very late to the thread(s). Would someone please say something really really offensive so I can try out the new report bat?

Yo' momma' wears army boots.

102 Alouette  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:19:08pm

re: #90 unrealizedviewpoint

I'm very late to the thread(s). Would someone please say something really really offensive so I can try out the new report bat?

Hillary Clinton is hot!

103 joecitizen  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:19:11pm

re: #90 unrealizedviewpoint

I'm very late to the thread(s). Would someone please say something really really offensive so I can try out the new report bat?


fuck you.

104 Tarkus289  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:19:44pm

re: #98 rawmuse

You win!

105 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:19:45pm
106 pingjockey  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:19:54pm

re: #102 Alouette
You forgot the tag!

107 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:20:03pm

re: #98 rawmuse

President Barack Obama

You are SO reported, mister!

(Just a test run, Charles, promise I will not abuse the function)

108 Ojoe  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:20:08pm

re: #90 unrealizedviewpoint

'Can't eat as much as we want; other countries won't say OK'

109 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:20:11pm

re: #93 savage_nation

Barack Hussein Obama

Thank you savage. I'm reporting you. That offensive remark may bring you the wrath of Stinkys' bat.

110 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:20:41pm

re: #90 unrealizedviewpoint

I'm very late to the thread(s). Would someone please say something really really offensive so I can try out the new report bat?

"Jihad" means "peaceful internal struggle".

111 DesertSage  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:20:45pm

re: #62 harley2002

McCain is the reason I will not vote in 28 years. Sorry can't vote for this hypocrite. Let him register some illegals to vote for him

Don't vote then. Nobody can make you.

Just realize that your non-vote is no different than a vote for Obama.

112 Sharmuta  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:20:52pm

re: #82 pegcity

ill take the 5 million dollar donation from hagee to israel as a decent apology

Don't be fooled by his money.

113 jcm  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:20:58pm

re: #90 unrealizedviewpoint

I'm very late to the thread(s). Would someone please say something really really offensive so I can try out the new report bat?

Evolution!
*whack*
Intelligent Design
*whack*
Evolution!
*whack*
Intelligent Design
*whack*
Evolution!
*whack*
Intelligent Design
*whack*
Evolution!
*whack*
Intelligent Design
*whack*

114 Ojoe  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:21:11pm

I like how everything goes dark when you hit the report button.

115 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:21:16pm

This is now reminding me of the Simpsons ep where they're all electrocuting each other at the family therapist's.

116 pingjockey  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:21:29pm

re: #109 unrealizedviewpoint

Drown manbearpig in ethanol bought with carbon credits.

117 Tarkus289  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:21:34pm

re: #115 Occasional Reader

Classic.

118 Mich-again  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:21:48pm

As a Catholic I never gave much concern to the various fire and brimstone Protestants who talked the anti-Catholic crap. I dealt with that nonsense all through my youth. I once got in a debate with my neighbor buddie's dad who was a fundie preacher ( at the little Church right smack dab in the neighborhood ) about Dinosaur bones. When he said they were just rocks that looked like giant bones I laughed at him. I was like 10 or 12 years old.

119 Ojoe  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:22:49pm

re: #114 Ojoe

In fact, just to go all hall monitor/nurse ratchet, I think there should be a little number next to the report button, to show how many times a comment has been reported.

120 livefreeor die  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:23:13pm

re: #96 MandyManners

Who?

He has to decide if he's racist or sexist. Also, which one most stands in his way of some sweet, sweet intern quality time.

121 Sarge1984  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:23:16pm

re: #97 autoexec

What's the holy covenant with Farrakhan you're talking about?

122 savage_nation[deleted]  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:23:34pm
123 wolfie  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:23:39pm

The MSM is just trying to create moral equivalence where there is none.

124 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:23:45pm

re: #118 Mich-again

As a Catholic I never gave much concern to the various fire and brimstone Protestants who talked the anti-Catholic crap. I dealt with that nonsense all through my youth. I once got in a debate with my neighbor buddie's dad who was a fundie preacher ( at the little Church right smack dab in the neighborhood ) about Dinosaur bones. When he said they were just rocks that looked like giant bones I laughed at him. I was like 10 or 12 years old.

Actually... technically speaking, they ARE rocks that look like dinosaur bones (due to the way fossilization happens). But he was partly right/mostly wrong, anyway.

125 Dr. Shalit  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:24:03pm

re: #23 Adrenalyn

this is good news from McCain
let's hope he picks a good running mate
I am not impressed with his rumored initial picks
as being something that will help him
Romney - too religious and the get your own planet thing
Jindal - too young and inexperienced
the other one, Crist is too unknown for me to make a judgement on
but leave it to the MSM to bring up his "religious" name (sort of)
and say that McCain is a god-monger or something sinister
they will stoop that low

"ad'

just remember this - apart from being a kiss is just a kiss AND a sigh is just a sigh - the fundamental thing is that ROMNEY can write a check for the rest of the campaign, JINDAL - Is the REAL DEAL as far as anyone can see, and Crist just might be able to deliver Florida in a close election. Be Guided Accordingly.

-S-

126 jcm  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:24:23pm

re: #111 DesertSage

Don't vote then. Nobody can make you.

Just realize that your non-vote is no different than a vote for Obama.

FL 2000.
529 votes.

WA 2004 Gov. race.
129 votes.

It doesn't take many.

127 Milk Toast Intolerant  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:24:53pm

Just for the record, I've watch dozens of Hagee's half hour sermons on tv a few years ago, and don't remember him saying anything remotely this controversial.

A question for any Bible scholars/historians here: didn't God used (or "sent" however you want to word it) kings and rulers to punish Israel in the Old Testament era? If yes, can't the same thing be said about Hitler? I think it could be a matter of semantics here, between the words "used" and "sent." I'm curious to hear what Hagee actually said and compare it to what the media reported.

128 savage_nation[deleted]  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:25:20pm
129 livefreeor die  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:25:29pm

re: #126 jcm

FL 2000.
529 votes.

WA 2004 Gov. race.
129 votes.

It doesn't take many.

The biggest motivator for me is the number of Supreme Court vacancies that will likely need to be filled.

130 songbird  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:25:39pm

Regardless of who McCain throws under the bus, I'm disappointed that in all this long terrible protracted election season the best we have to offer is Clinton, McCain and Obama. It's like having a choice of three Democrats!

/frustrated voter mode

131 freetoken  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:27:50pm

re: #127 Milk Toast Intolerant

It's all a variation on the basic "where did evil come from?" question that gets asked in/of religion.

132 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:28:00pm
133 Sharmuta  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:28:46pm

re: #105 song_and_dance_man

OK- how's this for a starter:

In "Jerusalem Countdown: A Prelude To war" Hagee has stated that Jews brought the Holocaust upon themselves by rebelling against God and that the Holocaust was God's way of forcing Jews to move to Israel where, Hagee predicts according to his interpretation of Biblical scripture, they will be mostly killed in the apocalyptic Mideast conflict Hagee's new lobbying group seems to be working to provoke and which John Hagee believes to be a necessary precondition for the "Rapture" that will lift Christians, but not Jews, bodily into Heaven to enjoy physical immortality amidst paradise.

“The United States must join Israel in a pre-emptive military strike against Iran to fulfill God's plan for both Israel and the West... a biblically prophesied end-time confrontation with Iran, which will lead to the Rapture, Tribulation [...] and [the] Second Coming of Christ." .

Sorry, but I think hagee supports Israel just so he can toss them under the bus. Wanting to start a war with iran to bring back Jesus is just as crazy as dinnerjacket wanting war to bring the mahdhi. That's whack.

134 DesertSage  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:29:11pm

After seeing McCain on SNL, I started to like the guy.
I can't stand Lord Obama.

This will be a no-brainer for me in Nov.

135 Sarge1984  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:29:47pm

From the best police blotter publication I've found yet:

9 p.m. A migratory couple in town for the big dopefest, one with stylish dreadlocks, entered a Northtown mini-mart, selected food items and were on their way out when they were reminded of the paying-for-stuff part. They told the clerk they had no money, and left to feed the items to their dog nearby. Police found the two and brokered a settlement, then arrested the woman on a drunkenness charge.

136 The Other Les  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:30:24pm

re: #134 DesertSage

After seeing McCain on SNL, I started to like the guy.
I can't stand Lord Obama.

This will be a no-brainer for me in Nov.

You do understand that you will be quoted out of context by the bad guys. right?

137 Ojoe  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:31:04pm

re: #133 Sharmuta

I say Hagee is nuts, after reading that.

Presuming to know the mind of God.

*Snort*

138 Sarge1984  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:31:08pm

re: #134 DesertSage

"Lord Obama"?

Isn't that like comparing him to Cheney?

/cue Vader theme music

139 Roger  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:31:34pm

re: #127 Milk Toast Intolerant

Hagee didn't say what is being intentionally rephrased and attributed to him. On both counts.

/Never forget the poor men of Lyons.

140 DesertSage  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:31:37pm

re: #136 The Other Les

You do understand that you will be quoted out of context by the bad guys. right?

It'll never stick.

141 Karridine  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:31:51pm

re: #130 songbird
I beg to differ, Songbyrd, this election is like having a Dhimmocrat, a Marxist and a patriotic, but unaligned American to vote for...

They COULD be called 'Democrats' (almost ANYBODY unprincipled is allowed in THAT tent) but they're so much MORE...

142 autoexec  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:31:53pm

re: #133 Sharmuta

OK- how's this for a starter:

Sorry, but I think hagee supports Israel just so he can toss them under the bus. Wanting to start a war with iran to bring back Jesus is just as crazy as dinnerjacket wanting war to bring the mahdhi. That's whack.

In that case i retract my advocacy of him. Are all Evangelical Zionists that way?

143 jcm  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:31:56pm

re: #128 savage_nation

yeah but those 129 votes were from the graveyard, weren't they?

Not too many dead voted in WA, but we had a lot of illegal registrations. 2000 more ballots counted in King Co than voters that voted. As the recounts progressed, ballots where found 9 times. Ballots that where reject by the optical scanners had a higher rate of being accepted and hand counted from predominately (D) precincts, than (R) precincts.

John McKay one of the 8 fed prosecutors fired by GWB that the (D)s made such a fuss over, admitted later he should have investigated.

The genius in charge of King Co. Elections, one Dean Logan moved to LA County the last election in LA as FUBARed.

144 Ojoe  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:32:06pm

re: #136 The Other Les

In what way badly quoted?

What's not to like there?

145 savage_nation[deleted]  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:32:07pm
146 Sharmuta  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:32:12pm
It was the disobedience and rebellion of the Jews, God's chosen people, to their covenantal responsibility to serve only the one true God, Jehovah, that gave rise to the opposition and persecution that they experienced beginning in Canaan and continuing to this very day....

-hagee in Jerusalem Countdown.

I say f*ck this guy.

147 Mich-again  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:32:14pm

re: #124 Occasional Reader

Actually... technically speaking, they ARE rocks that look like dinosaur bones (due to the way fossilization happens). But he was partly right/mostly wrong, anyway.

Good point. But it was part of a discussion about how there were no such things as dinosaurs. They weren't in the Bible. They never happened.

And thinking like that does not make someone a bad person, by any means. We entrusted the care of our three young children a few years back to a fundamentalist woman who was so into it she even claimed the World was really flat because the Bible only mentions the four corners of the Earth and that globe of yours is a big lie!
Ha. But the kids really liked her and she was very responsible and reliable.

148 experiencedtraveller  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:32:14pm

re: #138 Sarge1984

"Lord Obama"?

Isn't that like comparing him to Cheney?

/cue Vader theme music

Cheney is MUCH MORE SINISTER (in a good way) then Obama could ever be....

149 Milk Toast Intolerant  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:32:24pm

re: #130 songbird

Regardless of who McCain throws under the bus, I'm disappointed that in all this long terrible protracted election season the best we have to offer is Clinton, McCain and Obama. It's like having a choice of three Democrats!

/frustrated voter mode

For the life of me, I don't understand how the Republican Party can promote McCain and Huckabee over outstanding candidates like Giuliani and Hunter. I suspect many of those votes were cast by members of other parties, because they believe McCain would be very beatable in the general election.

150 gromster  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:32:25pm

Hagee is very, very strongly pro-Israel. I've seen many, many of his sermons on TV.

I agree with Hagee in supporting Israel as well as on many moral issues, but there are a few areas where I don't agree with him.

I've seen only a few Parsley sermons on TV. I don't like his preaching style, so I usually avoid him.

However, I have watched Parsley speak about Islam before on his TV show, and he's not a ranting, raving mad man about it.

Parsley has even qualified statements by saying things such as, "Of course, there are moderate Muslims, good Muslims who don't do what the radical Muslims do..." etc.

Parsley's views on Islam are much like that of the majority of posters on this blog.

Both Hagee and Parsley are involved with the false teaching of Word of Faith.

I've actually heard Hagee blame poor Christians for being poor. He teaches that there's no reason for a Christian not being wealthy. Well, I'm sorry, but what about Christians that live in 3rd world countries?

Hagee was divorced sometime in the 1970s. (Most Christians are usually surprised to discover that information.)

As for Hagee's commnent about Hitler driving Jewish people to Israel. I've heard him explain this before.

Hagee cites a Bible verse where it says God will drive the Jews back into Israel by (don't recall exact words) hunter or by fisher.

He explains that Hitler was the fulfillment of the "hunter" aspect and the earliest founders of Zionism were the "fishers."

So on the surface the comment may sound questionable, but he did not mean it in a bad way. (That's probably not how I would've chosen to put it, though.)

Hagee is also very critical of Roman Catholicism.

I agree with Hagee that many teachings/ practices of Roman Catholicism are false, but because he is very blunt on how he phrases things, people do find those comments offensive.

151 The Other Les  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:32:30pm

re: #140 DesertSage

It'll never stick.

Oh! The Teflon Voter.

152 pat  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:32:52pm

Hagee was referring to his (rather obnoxious) interpretation of prophecy. This is a liberal contrived nonstory with no factual basis. Hagee is an ardent Zionist. He has supported a Catholic charity for years. McCain again shows that he is too smart to learn anything.
My family has already thrown him under the bus. I really don't know who is going to vote for this man by election day. He sheds voters like a Labrador sheds water.

153 rawmuse  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:33:01pm

OK, I will share this with you all. My app with the local PD was passed over, but here were my results. I am still proud of my somewhat Quixotic attempt.

Physical agility and stamina test
(obstacle course included climbing a 6 ft brick wall, shoving of a 250 pound sled five feet and dragging of a 150 pound dummy 25 feet)
successful appicants need to perform it in 60 seconds
my time was 45.6 seconds
score = 760
minimum to pass = 650
(I was easily the oldest guy in a line of 150 applicants, by 20 years or more)

Written POST test (Police Officer Standard Test)
861
out of a possible 1000 points
with a 100 point deduction for not being a veteran.
(would have been 961 if I had been a vet)

Oral interview
before one officer and one civilian questioner

REJECTED

One of the scenarios was
"You make a traffic stop for running a red light. The driver is of an ethnic background and says you are profiling him/her. They say they will sue the City if you write the citation.
What is your response?"

I answered:

"Press hard, you are making three copies."

I am now disqualified until January 2009, when I may re-apply.

154 Charles  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:33:02pm

Hagee was not misquoted or taken out of context. Here's the recording:

155 savage_nation[deleted]  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:33:05pm
156 wolfie  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:34:09pm

re: #131 freetoken

It's all a variation on the basic "where did evil come from?" question that gets asked in/of religion.

Yeah. I've never heard Hagee preach nor have I read anything he's written, but I suspect he's saying that the evil of the Holocaust was "allowed" as part of some overall divine plan to establish Israel. I dunno.

157 Miss Molly  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:34:18pm

"End of Times" -- that explains so much. McCain has never been in the congregation of either of these people for 20 YEARS. and he didn't give either one over $22,000 this last year as Barak has given the Rev. Wright. He has not used either one for a mentor or for inspiration to write his books.

McCain can throw both of them under a bus, off a cliff or send them into outer space without benefit of a space suit and we will all be the better for it.

158 DesertSage  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:34:26pm

I had a Hagee sandwich for lunch today, and I think there was Parsley on it.

...or was that a Hogee?

159 jcm  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:34:28pm

re: #132 song_and_dance_man

Hagee is wrong about who and what the whore is, and I must say, he just may be part of it.

The Great Harlot is more than just one organization of religious and social entities.

The whore in simplest terms is the Apostate Church(s). The entities that have forgone the Word.

160 jainphx  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:34:32pm

re: #32 song_and_dance_man

Hagee can take care of himself. His comments maybe should be taken in context. I did not hear is whole sermon, but have heard many in the past. He hasn't said anything disparaging to the Jews. He loves the Jews and Israel, that much I know. John McCain has to do what he must do, but lets not drag good people in the mud, just disagree with him and let it go.

161 Mich-again  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:34:40pm

Maybe we should have a Hagee-Wright debate?

162 Sarge1984  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:34:46pm

re: #148 experiencedtraveller

I dunno...I'm way more scared of Obama than I ever was of Cheney.

Then again, I've never been bird hunting with Cheney.

/

163 The Other Les  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:35:16pm

re: #144 Ojoe

In what way badly quoted?

What's not to like there?

I like it. But they (the Donks) are strut about and pretend to be superior when they say that it takes no brains to vote for McCain.

They like to say that they are smart, like Fredo.

164 savage_nation[deleted]  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:35:57pm
165 MisterCookie  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:36:10pm

When are we going to throw the bus under the bus?

166 gunjam  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:36:43pm
A question for any Bible scholars/historians here: didn't God used (or "sent" however you want to word it) kings and rulers to punish Israel in the Old Testament era?

Yes. Hagee is saying nothing out standard Protestant biblical tradition. Some of the "good, glad he dropped Hagee" comments on this thread are from agnostics, who have no familiarity with either the Scriptures or with Hagee.

There exists no stronger non-Jewish US supporter of Israel than John Hagee. Attempts to frame him as anything less do not spring from honest intentions.

167 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:36:45pm

McCain had to do this, otherwise he'd look like a hypocrite.

Hagee's comments about Hitler being G-d's way to restore Israel went too far.

However, I think Parsley had some sage comments. It's about thyme someone said what he did.

168 MilkOfMalfeasance  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:37:01pm

re: #12 Adrenalyn

all McCain has to do now
is just keep his mouth shut

no more campaigning
no Q & A sessions
no debates

Hussein-Obama will never win unless McCain kicks a puppy on live TV

You used the "H" word, HOW DARE YOU!?!?

169 The Other Les  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:37:29pm

re: #157 Miss Molly

McCain can throw both of them under a bus, off a cliff or send them into outer space without benefit of a space suit and we will all be the better for it.

Do you have any idea how much energy it takes to put something in orbit?

I'd suggest tossing them off of a convenient bridge.

170 experiencedtraveller  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:37:57pm

re: #152 pat

The beauty is that on election day 2008 there will be two names on the ballot.

One will be John McCain. A patriot.

The other will be: ?

171 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:38:15pm

re: #162 Sarge1984

Then again, I've never been bird hunting with Cheney.

True, but I would never dream of even handing a loaded gun to Obama. He'd either scream and drop it, or promptly put his finger on the trigger, figuring it must be as harmless as a plate of warm arugula.

172 wolfie  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:38:19pm

re: #133 Sharmuta

If that's what Hagee really believes, I say he's a crackpot.

(I'd use a few other terms if I weren't a mild-mannered lady.)

173 savage_nation[deleted]  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:38:24pm
174 Tarkus289  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:38:31pm

I would rather bird hunt with Cheney than live a day under obama's rule.

175 The Other Les  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:38:31pm

re: #170 experiencedtraveller

Irrelevant.

176 Mich-again  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:38:38pm

re: #154 Charles

Oh there is some weird stuff there..

He goes on: "Theodore Hertzel is the father of Zionism. He was a Jew who at the turn of the 19th century said, this land is our land, God wants us to live there. So he went to the Jews of Europe and said 'I want you to come and join me in the land of Israel.' So few went that Hertzel went into depression. Those who came founded Israel; those who did not went through the hell of the holocaust. [..see, it was their own fault -ed]

"Then god sent a hunter. A hunter is someone with a gun and he forces you. Hitler was a hunter. And the Bible says -- Jeremiah writing -- 'They shall hunt them from every mountain and from every hill and from the holes of the rocks,' meaning there's no place to hide. And that might be offensive to some people but don't let your heart be offended. I didn't write it, Jeremiah wrote it. It was the truth and it is the truth. How did it happen? Because God allowed it to happen. Why did it happen? Because God said my top priority for the Jewish people is to get them to come back to the land of Israel."

Did someone say Jeremiah was Right?

177 J.S.  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:38:41pm

re: #58 Occasional Reader

Yes, Hagee was initially criticized because of his Catholic bashing. (Hagee came under fire from the Catholic League). And, CNN "commentators" immediately picked up on Hagee/McCain (when the Rev Wright controversy bloomed) and used this as a moral equivalence argument -- that is, Hussein has Wright, but McCain has Hagee -- "score is even" -- according to the musings of the Leftists. ( in strictly political terms, I think the McCain camp may be making a tactical error -- if image and perception is everything -- then it gives credence to the moral equivalence argument or that "there's no difference between Barack's relationship with Wright and McCain's relationship with Hagee." And, now, with Parsley -- for the ill-informed, the situation becomes even worse...since now the Hussein camp can make claims that more lunatic preachers gravitate to McCain than to Hussein.)

178 Sharmuta  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:38:59pm
How utterly repulsive, insulting, and heartbreaking to God for His chosen people to credit idols with bringing blessings He had showered upon the chosen people. Their own rebellion had birthed the seed of anti-Semitism that would arise and bring destruction to them for centuries to come.... it rises from the judgment of God uppon his rebellious chosen people."

-hagee in Jerusalem Countdown

Talk about Holocaust revisionism! He blames the Jews!

179 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:39:03pm

re: #167 Kosh's Shadow

McCain had to do this, otherwise he'd look like a hypocrite.

Hagee's comments about Hitler being G-d's way to restore Israel went too far.

However, I think Parsley had some sage comments. It's about thyme someone said what he did.

It's not too late to somehow work Rosemary Clooney into your comment.

180 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:39:14pm

re: #153 rawmuse

I answered:

"Press hard, you are making three copies."

I am now disqualified until January 2009, when I may re-apply.

With that answer you must have a background in sales.

The answer was probably summon a supervisor.

181 Allah al Fubar  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:39:21pm

Make no mistake: This election has been decided by the lame stream media. Any and all criticizism of Barack Hussein (oh I said the name) Obama will be immediately shelved and tossed out as "Racism".

Barack must win. If he does not win, we will see unprecidented riots and civil disturbance previously unknown to and within this country.

Let him win. Let's keep the peace. After all, that's what Wolf Blitzer wants.

/by the way, who really believes that his parents named him "Wolf". Eddie Van Halen named his son Wolgang and that was pretty far out.

Anyway, we're going to have an inexperienced, naive, unpatriotic, black supremacist POTUS, who brings "change".

Resistance is futile.

182 jcm  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:39:28pm

re: #155 savage_nation

So how bad is Gregoire fucking you guys?

Don't get me started.

9 cent gas tax, the Alaska Way Viaduct (the elevated road on the Seattle water front), State Route 520 floating bridge both "emergencies" had to be fixed. She just bailed on a decision on 520 and Alaska Way, and sent the it back to panels.

Department of Corrections supervised felonies killing cops, 3 so far.

Department of Social and Health Service is broken. Dumps tons of money in, but money for kids is cut.

ROSSI for Gov.

Watch for Rossi on the national scene in '16.

183 Maximu§  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:40:30pm

McCain said he rejected Parsley’s support, too.....

McCain rejected the months-old endorsement of Texas preacher John Hagee

~Queen~

Another one bites the Bus
And another one gone, and another one gone
Another one bites the Bus
Hey, it's gonna get you too
Another one bites the Bus

184 experiencedtraveller  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:40:33pm

re: #175 The Other Les

Irrelevant.

Lol.

185 Karridine  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:42:28pm

re: #184 experiencedtraveller

Sick pachyderm? The Donkeys are ill, too...

186 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:43:10pm
187 gop_patriot  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:43:35pm

re: #135 Sarge1984

A good one:

3:39 p.m. A passive traffic vigilante with a white goatee sat in a black pickup truck parked in a traffic lane on Old Arcata Road in an heroic, one-coot effort to get speeders to slow down, forcing vehicles into oncoming traffic. He left before police arrived.

ROFLOL

188 gunjam  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:43:51pm

re: #146 Sharmuta

I say f*ck this guy.

Very good intellectual repartee. /Sarc

Regardless of what you say, Hagee is correct. Have you ever actually READ the Old Testament? There is a good deal in there about God's sending punishments upon Israel. Are you suggesting that the Bible is anti-Semitic?

189 The Other Les  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:44:07pm

re: #185 Karridine

Sick pachyderm? The Donkeys are ill, too...

We need a Lizard Party!

190 Sharmuta  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:44:16pm
In "Jerusalem Countdown" one can find echoes of many of the themes that been at the core of historical antisemitism. IN the book, Hagee repeatedly states that Jews are "spiritually blind" - echoing the age-old charge that Jews are materialistic - and in an a September 18, 2006 WHYY "Fresh Air" interview with Terry Gross, Hagee seemed to blame Jews for the death of Jesus:

Zechariah says in the 14th chapter `and when they, the Jewish people, see him whom they have pierced' -and the word pierced there actually refers to his rib and side-`when they see him whom they have pierced, they will weep as one weeps for his only son for a period of one week.

This guy is no friend to Israel- he is a wolf in sheep's clothing trying to convince people that Israel should be the sacrificial lamb to bring back Jesus. I say he's whack.

191 savage_nation[deleted]  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:44:18pm
192 J.S.  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:44:22pm

re: #178 Sharmuta

There are others (Ahem! read "rabbis") who do precisely the same! (they do, thankfully, constitute a minority)...they use "religious" reasons to condemn the victims...

193 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:44:39pm

re: #158 DesertSage

I had a Hagee sandwich for lunch today, and I think there was Parsley on it.

...or was that a Hogee?

Obama is a wish sandwich.

194 Karridine  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:45:17pm

re: #189 The Other Les

Yee-haw!

195 rawmuse  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:45:22pm

re: #180 unrealizedviewpoint

I have already applied to some other agencies. We see what shakes out.

196 Mich-again  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:45:51pm

re: #178 Sharmuta

Talk about Holocaust revisionism! He blames the Jews!

That seems to be the pattern.

197 DesertSage  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:45:54pm

re: #178 Sharmuta

How utterly repulsive, insulting, and heartbreaking to God for His chosen people to credit idols with bringing blessings He had showered upon the chosen people. Their own rebellion had birthed the seed of anti-Semitism that would arise and bring destruction to them for centuries to come.... it rises from the judgment of God uppon his rebellious chosen people."

-hagee in Jerusalem Countdown

Talk about Holocaust revisionism! He blames the Jews!

I'm not taking sides in this debate, because frankly I don't want to get into any arguments.
Hagee wasn't talking about the Holocaust in that paragraph you just quoted, he was talking about the Exodus.

Just being factually correct here.

198 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:45:54pm
199 Allah al Fubar  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:46:22pm

Oooh song is here..

I just felt a tingle.

200 experiencedtraveller  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:46:55pm

re: #185 Karridine

Wait to the 60 second ads come out around Labor Day.

And BTW, where is uncommitted bitterness getting anybody these days?

201 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:47:01pm
McCain rejected the months-old endorsement of Texas preacher John Hagee after an audio recording surfaced in which the preacher said God sent Adolf Hitler to help Jews reach the promised land. McCain called the comment “crazy and unacceptable.”


Because Darwin is responsible for the holocaust, of course.
/Ben Stein

202 Mich-again  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:47:08pm

re: #198 song_and_dance_man

She is more than just religious.

Splain that?

203 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:47:29pm

Red Meat.

204 The Other Les  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:47:39pm

re: #188 gunjam

Very good intellectual repartee. /Sarc

Regardless of what you say, Hagee is correct. Have you ever actually READ the Old Testament? There is a good deal in there about God's sending punishments upon Israel. Are you suggesting that the Bible is anti-Semitic?

This might suggest that there was a change of management between the Old Testament and the New Testament. Very much like the Monty Python sketch where several individuals, including a Chinese Communist, were claiming to be the Bishop of East Anglia.

205 jainphx  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:48:28pm

re: #188 gunjam

Were swimming up stream here, with so many other things we agree on, fighting about this is divisive.

206 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:48:29pm

re: #188 gunjam

That's an interesting "God" you believe it. The one who - according to you - was the author of Auschwitz. Tell me, how do you distinguish your God from a devil?

207 Milk Toast Intolerant  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:48:29pm

Everyone should check out the youtube video Charles linked to at post 154. It has Hagee's comment on Hitler being sent by God to bring the Jews to Israel and Hagee supported his interpretation with quotes from Jeremiah. This is a topic that many preachers shy away from, but Hagee is not one of those. He knew it would be controversial but said it anyway.

208 Allah al Fubar  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:48:31pm

re: #198 song_and_dance_man

The Harlot is more than just the rejecting assembly of believers. It is the pseudo bride and is married to another. She is more than just religious.

Keep telling it, Brother. You see it, I see it.

Exasperating.

209 DesertSage  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:48:52pm

Give it a break Killgore, Ben Stein is not the enemy. The man has done wonderful things for our troops.

210 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:48:57pm

re: #195 rawmuse

I have already applied to some other agencies. We see what shakes out.

I'm sorry that didn't work for you.
I'm surprised one single question would do you in. Doesn't sound quite right. Good luck on the next!

211 Karridine  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:49:02pm

re: #200 experiencedtraveller

Fortunately, ET, my HEART is in America, but my abode is in Bangkok, so I'll leave those 60-second TV-Trashers on my Must-Miss-List!

212 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:49:04pm

re: #205 jainphx

fighting about this is divisive.


But it's interesting.

213 experiencedtraveller  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:49:11pm

re: #203 Killgore Trout

Red Meat.

Is purple the new red?

214 Allah al Fubar  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:49:16pm

re: #201 Killgore Trout

Hey now, I love ben stein.

WOW.

215 Maximu§  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:49:22pm

Uh-oh...looks like a religious knock-down-drag-out-fight coming on.

216 gunjam  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:49:29pm

re: #154 Charles


Hagee was not misquoted or taken out of context. Here's the recording:

[Link: [Link: www.youtube.com...]...]

Charles, you are coder-cum-geek sans pareil in my book.

Uhmm, how familiar are you with biblical hermeneutics?

Moreover, how familiar are you with Hagee's well-known, well-established, and virtually unequalled support for the State of Israel?

217 Sharmuta  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:49:34pm

re: #188 gunjam

Regardless of what you say, Hagee is correct. Have you ever actually READ the Old Testament? There is a good deal in there about God's sending punishments upon Israel. Are you suggesting that the Bible is anti-Semitic?

No- john hagee is.

218 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:49:49pm

re: #214 Allah al Fubar

Good for you.

219 savage_nation[deleted]  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:50:07pm
220 Roger  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:50:44pm

re: #142 autoexec

In that case i retract my advocacy of him. Are all Evangelical Zionists that way?

That is not Hagee's position. He knows the sand of that hour glass is started [by another set of actors] and cannot be reset, sped up or altered by Christians even with their support of Israel.

221 jaunte  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:50:51pm

Hagee on Hurricane Katrina:

I believe that New Orleans had a level of sin that was offensive to God, and they are--were recipients of the judgment of God for that. The newspaper carried the story in our local area that was not carried nationally that there was to be a homosexual parade on the Monday that the Katrina came, and the promise of that parade was that it was going to reach a level of sexuality never demonstrated before in any of the other Gay Pride parades. So I believe that the judgment of God is a very real thing.
222 experiencedtraveller  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:50:56pm

re: #211 Karridine

Make sure you mail your ballot on-time.

223 DesertSage  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:50:59pm

re: #219 savage_nation

I'm staying out of this....

Me too.

224 Allah al Fubar  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:51:15pm

re: #219 savage_nation

Oh, I'm not going to fight.

Pay no attention to my rock.

225 Maximu§  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:51:28pm

re: #219 savage_nation

I'm staying out of this....

Yeah, its a good time to get a bowl of Capt'n Crunch...

226 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:51:33pm
McCain rejected the months-old endorsement of Texas preacher John Hagee after an audio recording surfaced in which the preacher said God sent Adolf Hitler to help Jews reach the promised land. McCain called the comment “crazy and unacceptable.”

I have to agree with McCain here. Not only is such a statement “crazy and unacceptable”, I also find it to be disgusting, offensive, and flat out ignorant.

If this Hagee character did indeed say such a thing, then he most certainly deserves to be rejected, repudiated, ridiculed and mocked.

227 Sarge1984  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:51:48pm

re: #187 gop_patriot

I found that from a link somebody posted here, and it's the most entertaining blotter report I've found yet!

228 Karridine  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:51:59pm

re: #222 experiencedtraveller

Yup yop! :D

229 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:52:10pm

re: #181 Allah al Fubar

Make no mistake: This election has been decided by the lame stream media. Any and all criticizism of Barack Hussein (oh I said the name) Obama will be immediately shelved and tossed out as "Racism".

This is precisely what makes him as President such a hellish prospect. Imagine not being able to criticise the President under any circumstances, for fear of being called the big R-word? In the so-called marketplace of ideas, that's as bad as being called a pedophile.

Frankly, I'd take the riots of a few whiny, ignorant black people, over having the country suffer, with all his stupid mistakes evaporating into thin air, explained away with pretzel UnLogic, or just dismissed by false accusations of "racism", while cities abroad (and possibly here at home) are battered and burned by Islamic bombs.

230 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:52:12pm

re: #181 Allah al Fubar

We cannot let Obama win. The country won't survive. He has said he wants to disarm the US, and he has no idea how to prevent Iran from getting nukes, if he really wants to stop them, and that isn't clear.

231 Allah al Fubar  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:52:22pm

Crunch Berries or plain?

I have to have the Crunch Berries.

232 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:52:42pm

re: #215 Maximu§

Uh-oh...looks like a religious knock-down-drag-out-fight coming on.

I got my finger on the "report bat button."

233 Mich-again  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:52:48pm

The specter of a four day weekend looms.

Honeydew or I'll kick your arse list is a scroll by now.

234 jainphx  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:53:28pm

re: #212 Killgore Trout

Not when the teaching of Hagee is taken so badly out of context. Isreal has no better friend than Hagee, and to say other wise is just wrong. The Bible quotes that hunters would be sent to regroup all the children of Israel home, that is what was meant by that statement.

235 LeePro  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:53:40pm

re: #150 gromster

Hagee is also very critical of Roman Catholicism.

I agree with Hagee that many teachings/ practices of Roman Catholicism are false...

Excuse me...?

False, as in... what?!?!?

236 Allah al Fubar  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:53:47pm

re: #230 Kosh's Shadow

We cannot let Obama win. The country won't survive. He has said he wants to disarm the US, and he has no idea how to prevent Iran from getting nukes, if he really wants to stop them, and that isn't clear.

Well what are you going to do about it?

237 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:53:49pm

Quisp or Quake?

238 rawmuse  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:53:50pm

re: #210 unrealizedviewpoint

The officer got it and laughed. Broke him up, actually. The civilian sat grim-faced. I figure that he sunk me. Either that or they figured out that I was way out of warranty.

239 Sarge1984  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:54:21pm

re: #219 savage_nation

I'm with you.

240 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:55:04pm

I see banned people.

241 Allah al Fubar  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:55:10pm

re: #237 unrealizedviewpoint

Quisp. Healthier. And the guy on the box was pretty darned Kool!

242 joecitizen  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:55:20pm

re: #235 LeePro

Excuse me...?

False, as in... what?!?!?


here we go!

243 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:55:41pm

re: #4 Adrenalyn

plus, we need less religion in this world

Nine out of ten imams would disagree.

/the tally would have been unanimous, but they couldn't which cave #10 was hiding in at the time of the survey.

244 The Shadow Do  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:55:43pm

There is no defense of crank preachers from either side of this bruhaha. Call it a wash and move on to the issues please. Any gun owners out there that think they have a right to keep them? Who thinks that the Constitution is a relic subject to modern interpretation? Is your property really yours, are is it gifted by your government? Etc. Etc. Etc.

245 Boogberg  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:56:11pm

About Hagee.

I want to like the guy but man, he's got some pretty kooky ideas. He's like the Christian version of an Islamist. He's a very powerful speaker and he can get heads a noddin'. But in the end he's just another kook.

I think BabbaZee and I got into it over this guy a while back.

246 Sharmuta  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:56:21pm
"The United States must join Israel in a pre-emptive military strike against Iran to fulfill God's plan for both Israel and the West... a biblically prophesied end-time confrontation with Iran, which will lead to the Rapture, Tribulation [...] and [the] Second Coming of Christ."

-john hagee

This is hagee's position in a nutshell, folks. He wants war with iran to bring back Jesus.

247 jainphx  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:56:42pm

re: #221 jaunte

And this is wrong how! he's a preacher this is what preachers do. They preach against sin, and regardless of what any one say's he preaches.

248 gunjam  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:56:42pm

re: #206 Occasional Reader

re: #188 gunjam

That's an interesting "God" you believe it. The one who - according to you - was the author of Auschwitz. Tell me, how do you distinguish your God from a devil?

Are you aware that Christ's enemies referred to him as possessed by Satan?

249 yesandno  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:56:46pm

Must be that straight talk express......

On the one hand, what that idiot stated was horrid.

On the other hand, I hate the nit-picky aspect of having to endorse or reject everyone who donates a dollar to your campaign. And just because Obama sits in his holier then thou position stating that he believes McCain doesn't endorse this idiot's thinking, doesn't mean we shouldn't think that Obama believes what his pastor articulates. Hagee was a person who contributed to McCain's campaign. He wasn't McCain's pastor, mentor, or best bud for 20 years, etc. Obama's pastor, mentor and BFF was Wright (and so horribly wrong). Not equivalent....

Nice try, though, Obama...but we aren't buying. But nice tire tracks...

250 Allah al Fubar  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:57:00pm

Oh crap, do we have to talk about religion and islam?

/I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.

I have to change my name but Charles won't let me. Even with bribes.

251 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:57:04pm

re: #236 Allah al Fubar

Well what are you going to do about it?

I've given a donation to McCain; I'm trying to convince everyone I know to vote for McCain, (although little good since they're all in Moonbattachusetts), and if you have any other ideas, please let me know.

I don't see failure being much of an option here.

252 Mich-again  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:57:09pm

Hagee and Jeremiah Wright..

Demonstrating how the far right eventually reaches the far left.

253 J.S.  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:57:20pm

re: #235 LeePro

Nooooooooooo! Nooooooo! Don't please -- let's not start this....It's futile....People have different beliefs, different conceptions...let's just leave it at that!

254 savage_nation[deleted]  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:57:29pm
255 Maximu§  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:57:29pm

I'm taking my family motocross riding in the high desert (Mojave) tomorrow...got the motor home gassed up ($480) and the bikes loaded.

anyone else going camping?

256 itellu3times  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:57:30pm

re: #153 rawmuse

rawmuse, I wonder what you were after? I have a friend who was working as a civilian with the LAPD, and wanted to join the department to investigate white-collar crime. Friend was about 50yo at the time, or about ten years past whatever the limit was. He offered to do a footrace with the chief, but the chief declined. He went to the city council to see if they'd raise the limit and let him do the academy, council declined. He went on to other things - finally did become a sworn officer, elsewhere. Then gave that up, too. Stupid PD won't hire a civ for some jobs, won't swear anyone without putting them through academy and street patrol. I see their point, but it doesn't help them much with white collar stuff. Good luck with whatever you're after.

257 pegcity  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:57:54pm

re: #243 Slumbering Behemoth

we need less islam, i dont mind the other religions

258 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:57:56pm

re: #248 gunjam

Are you aware that Christ's enemies referred to him as possessed by Satan?

What's your point?

259 The Other Les  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:59:00pm

re: #243 Slumbering Behemoth

Nine out of ten imams would disagree.

/the tally would have been unanimous, but they couldn't which cave #10 was hiding in at the time of the survey.

I would think that they would want fewer religions in this world.

260 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:59:06pm

re: #234 jainphx

Not when the teaching of Hagee is taken so badly out of context


See #154

261 Sarge1984  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:59:41pm

re: #254 savage_nation

An irreverent classic.

262 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:59:50pm

re: #240 Occasional Reader

Ha!

263 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 22, 2008 8:59:51pm

re: #238 rawmuse

The officer got it and laughed. Broke him up, actually. The civilian sat grim-faced. I figure that he sunk me. Either that or they figured out that I was way out of warranty.

It sounds like the civilian, not getting the humor at all, leaped to conclusions - how you may handle other situations. No intelligence or aptitude test needed to be a civilian. F 'em.

264 jainphx  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:00:01pm

re: #260 Killgore Trout

See his Sermons and then speak.

265 experiencedtraveller  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:00:07pm

re: #246 Sharmuta

Source that Sharmuta. Come on....

266 realwest  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:00:27pm

re: #233 Mich-again

Hey Mich! Uh, how do y'all get a FOUR day weekend out of this?

267 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:00:35pm

re: #241 Allah al Fubar

Quisp. Healthier. And the guy on the box was pretty darned Kool!

You're old if you remember them.

268 Alexander  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:00:43pm

What little enthusiasm I had for McCain is going down by the minute. Like it or not, religious conservatives constitute an integral part of the Republican Party. Parsley may be eccentric, but he's no cultural idiot.

269 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:00:44pm

I think we need a new topic. This one has all the exciting promise of evolution versus intelligent design.

We can go round and round on the merry go round forever. Biblical interpretations, especially those that claim absolute knowledge about how those verses relate to current events, may or may not be correct.

May or may not be correct.

May or may not be correct.

Bye bye...

270 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:00:47pm

re: #252 Mich-again

Demonstrating how the far right eventually reaches the far left.


The Moronic Convergence.

271 Sarge1984  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:00:49pm

re: #266 realwest

Same way I do: take tomorrow off!

272 Allah al Fubar  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:00:49pm

I am looking at buying a jet ski.. But, I already have a sailboat (a really little one). The rocks off shore are brutal and I worry about the impact on impellars. The dealer says it's "okay, lady buy the ski" but I just cant help but think that if I take the ski offshore I will hit bottom on some coral.

help!

273 rawmuse  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:01:08pm

re: #256 itellu3times

Beat cops are making $100k a year here. Sounds good to me.

274 Allah al Fubar  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:01:33pm

re: #267 unrealizedviewpoint

So what about it? I'm old. Okay. So what?

275 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:01:36pm

re: #264 jainphx

See his Sermons and then speak.


Seen, spoken.

276 reine.de.tout  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:01:37pm

re: #247 jainphx

And this is wrong how! he's a preacher this is what preachers do. They preach against sin, and regardless of what any one say's he preaches.

This is wrong because preaching against sin is an entirely different thing than teaching that God sent Katrina to New Orleans to punish children and old people because the gay folks were going to have a nasty parade.

277 jaunte  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:01:47pm

re: #247 jainphx

He's free to preach all he wants. To suggest that Hurricane Katrina, which hurt bad and good people alike, was a specific judgment against gays, is silly in my opinion. I'm free to point out that his statement is ludicrous.

278 jainphx  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:02:04pm

re: #275 Killgore Trout

No you haven't.

279 DesertSage  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:02:27pm

re: #255 Maximu§

I'm taking my family motocross riding in the high desert (Mojave) tomorrow...got the motor home gassed up ($480) and the bikes loaded.

anyone else going camping?

I would go, but I have other plans :'(

What kind of bike do you ride? We went to Gorman last weekend. It was hotter than hell.

280 The Other Les  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:03:03pm

re: #269 really grumpy big dog Johnson

Sex with Dinosaurs?

281 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:03:25pm

re: #278 jainphx

No you haven't.


Yes, I have.

282 gunjam  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:03:52pm

re: #235 LeePro

I agree with Hagee that many teachings/ practices of Roman Catholicism are false...

Excuse me...?

False, as in... what?!?!?

See the Reformation. See Foxe's Book of Martyrs. See the 39 Articles of Religion. See the Westminster Catechism.

While you may not agree with these Protestant writings, you should be aware that there exists a considerable body of writings that lay out serious biblical disagreements with various tenets of Roman Catholic teaching.

283 jainphx  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:03:52pm

Like I said before swimming up stream. I don't want to alienate all you good people here so I'll refrain.

284 Sharmuta  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:04:13pm

re: #265 experiencedtraveller

Source that Sharmuta. Come on....

But On July 19, 2006, at a CUFI's Washington DC inaugural event, with GOP Party head Ken Mehlman and US GOP Senators Sam Brownback, Rick Santorum, Kay Bailey-Hutchinson and John Cornyn in attendance ( President George W. Bush sent recorded greetings to the event ) , Pastor John Hagee declared :

"The United States must join Israel in a pre-emptive military strike against Iran to fulfill God's plan for both Israel and the West... a biblically prophesied end-time confrontation with Iran, which will lead to the Rapture, Tribulation [...] and [the] Second Coming of Christ."

There you go.

285 Mich-again  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:04:19pm

re: #266 realwest

Hey Mich! Uh, how do y'all get a FOUR day weekend out of this?

6 weeks vacation time plus holidays. But seeing as I get paid to think, time off isn't always a vacation. Ha.

286 The Shadow Do  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:04:29pm

What the hell is this whole phenomena of spiritual leaders immersing themselves and their congregates in politics? Sorry, just don't get it.

287 Allah al Fubar  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:05:00pm

I need a prayer.

For my ... um. dock. It's in bad shape.

Obama can fix my dock.

And everyone will have free gas.

/heh

288 rawmuse  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:05:01pm

re: #282 gunjam

See the Reformation. See Foxe's Book of Martyrs. See the 39 Articles of Religion. See the Westminster Catechism.

While you may not agree with these Protestant writings, you should be aware that there exists a considerable body of writings that lay out serious biblical disagreements with various tenets of Roman Catholic teaching.

They got nailed to the door by M. Luther, as I recall.

289 Mich-again  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:05:21pm

re: #286 The Shadow Do

What the hell is this whole phenomena of spiritual leaders immersing themselves and their congregates in politics? Sorry, just don't get it.

Neither me! If they want ot talk politics, they should lose their tax exempt status.

290 holycrusader  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:05:30pm

I am impressed. This is the totally correct response. Only a political veteran would do this!

Mr. McCain sought to distinguish his ties to Mr. Hagee from Mr. Obama’s with Mr. Wright in his statement, saying: “I have said I do not believe Senator Obama shares Reverend Wright’s extreme views. But let me also be clear, Reverend Hagee was not and is not my pastor or spiritual advisor, and I did not attend his church for twenty years. I have denounced statements he made immediately upon learning of them, as I do again today.

Bring it back to Obama. You sat there for 20 years and didn't find those sermons odd?

291 Maximu§  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:05:34pm

re: #272 Allah al Fubar

I just cant help but think that if I take the ski offshore I will hit bottom on some coral....

Have you seen Jaws? After you see that movie, you'll think twice before riding that little buggy offshore...

292 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:05:48pm

re: #286 The Shadow Do

It does seem to be a new phenomenon. Religion and politics are changing in America.

293 Roger  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:05:49pm

Did too

294 The Shadow Do  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:06:06pm

re: #289 Mich-again

Amen

295 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:06:12pm

re: #293 Roger

Did too

Less filling!

296 MandyManners  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:06:33pm

re: #293 Roger

Did too

Did not.

297 Mich-again  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:06:35pm

re: #293 Roger

Did too

Did not!

uh, what are we taling about?

298 Roger  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:06:35pm

Did not

299 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:06:37pm

re: #68 Sarge1984


No, I don't think it was a bad choice of words, I think it was one individual truthfully voicing his beliefs.

I tend to agree. I would also like to add that, at some point, grown adults must be held accountable for their choice of words, good bad or ugly.

300 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:06:41pm

re: #295 Occasional Reader

Tastes great!

301 DesertSage  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:06:48pm

re: #284 Sharmuta

But On July 19, 2006, at a CUFI's Washington DC inaugural event, with GOP Party head Ken Mehlman and US GOP Senators Sam Brownback, Rick Santorum, Kay Bailey-Hutchinson and John Cornyn in attendance ( President George W. Bush sent recorded greetings to the event ) , Pastor John Hagee declared :

"The United States must join Israel in a pre-emptive military strike against Iran to fulfill God's plan for both Israel and the West... a biblically prophesied end-time confrontation with Iran, which will lead to the Rapture, Tribulation [...] and [the] Second Coming of Christ."

Do you have a link for that? I want to see what he said before and after just so I can get the context.

302 LeePro  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:06:50pm

re: #242 joecitizen

here we go!

Maybe not. I may not want to play with someone that ignorant.

;)

303 slokat  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:06:58pm

re: #250 Allah al Fubar

Oh crap, do we have to talk about religion and islam?

/I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.

I have to change my name but Charles won't let me. Even with bribes.

So next open reg. get a sock & then be the sock!

/simple solutions for complex angsts

304 experiencedtraveller  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:07:01pm

re: #284 Sharmuta

There you go.

Thank you.

305 Mich-again  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:07:09pm

re: #298 Roger

Did not

Did too!

306 reine.de.tout  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:07:30pm

re: #305 Mich-again

First I did, then I did not.

307 Allah al Fubar  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:07:34pm

re: #291 Maximu§

I just cant help but think that if I take the ski offshore I will hit bottom on some coral....

Have you seen Jaws? After you see that movie, you'll think twice before riding that little buggy offshore...

?

I live in Key West.

308 Mich-again  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:07:59pm

Its Duck hunting season I tell ya!

309 jainphx  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:08:07pm

re: #281 Killgore Trout

I only say that a man that is obviously intelligent and you say you've read the Bible and heard Hagee's sermons, you come to the conclusions that you do. Your posts are for me pleasurable to read except when it comes for your dislike for anything that resembles religion.

310 Roger  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:08:09pm

re: #295 Occasional Reader

Less filling!

Half filling! Ya wanna argue punk?

311 Maximu§  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:08:24pm

re: #279 DesertSage

I would go, but I have other plans :'(

What kind of bike do you ride? We went to Gorman last weekend. It was hotter than hell.

OMG, It was too hot last weekend and Gorman is just too crowded. I just bought a Honda 2008 450x...has'nt even touched the dirt yet.

312 joecitizen  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:08:28pm

re: #288 rawmuse

They got nailed to the door by M. Luther, as I recall.

actually,that'nailed to the door thing' probably never happened and is a quaint folk tale,like much of religion..

313 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:08:47pm

I voted for "did" before I voted for "did not".

314 reno911  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:08:50pm

re: #272 Allah al Fubar

There are these things called "charts". If you are considering taking a vessel where there are "rocks", I strongly recommend you consult one of those "chart" things.

/actually I recommend you got nowhere near the water because you will become a statistic. No offense.

315 Sharmuta  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:09:06pm

re: #301 DesertSage

Sorry- I don't have time right now to do all the research, but I'm sure you or some other Lizard could find it.

Hope all the Lizards have a great night!

316 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:09:15pm

re: #309 jainphx

Your posts are for me pleasurable to read except when it comes for your dislike for anything that resembles religion.


Your god stinks.
/How'd you like them apples?

317 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:09:21pm

re: #274 Allah al Fubar

So what about it? I'm old. Okay. So what?

No offense. I might be too, seeing as I'm the one bringing them up.

318 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:09:51pm

re: #310 Roger

Ya wanna argue punk?

Sure. Do you think it was a legitimate musical expression of disenchantment with the direction of rock in the 70s, or was it merely nihilism?

319 jaunte  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:09:58pm

Didjeridoo

320 Mich-again  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:10:19pm

re: #309 jainphx

I only say that a man that is obviously intelligent and you say you've read the Bible and heard Hagee's sermons, you come to the conclusions that you do.

Fjordman is intelligent and he comes to some really idiotic conclusions.

321 realwest  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:10:38pm

re: #245 Boogberg
Ya know that's sora interesting, cause I searched your comments back to May 1 and didn't see any mention of Babba Zee - who isn't out here tonight - are you sure you "got into it" with her?

322 MandyManners  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:10:55pm

re: #298 Roger

Did not

Did too.

323 Ojoe  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:11:06pm
324 Richard Romano  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:11:08pm

The way the MSN paints this is so absurd -- McCain never spent a minute in Hagee's church, while Obama sat in Wright's church for 20 years, married him, baptized his kids, and provided mentorship -- who are we kidding?

325 Milk Toast Intolerant  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:11:24pm

"God sent several conquerors to punish Israel."

Is the above statement anti-Semitic?

326 gop_patriot  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:11:39pm

re: #227 Sarge1984

The main page, OMG this is too good.
From the second link:

2:53 p.m. A man who had been drinking fell asleep in the 100 block of South G Street with his pantaloons at insufficient altitude to forestall indecency. Police consulted with the bare-butted booze-woozed bibulant, who wasn’t drunk enough to arrest and wandered off on his own aromatic steam.

X)

327 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:11:41pm

re: #298 Roger

Did not

Reporting everyone!

328 Allah al Fubar  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:11:43pm

re: #314 reno911

There are these things called "charts". If you are considering taking a vessel where there are "rocks", I strongly recommend you consult one of those "chart" things.

/actually I recommend you got nowhere near the water because you will become a statistic. No offense.

Reno, I rectumend that you stay up in the desert and leave chartering waters to those who know what they are doing.

No offense, but geeze oh petes I'm tempted to whale on you right now. But I shall refrain because your mind surely is clouded with the dust of nevada.

329 Opilio  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:12:01pm

re: #288 rawmuse

They got nailed to the door by M. Luther, as I recall.

That was actually The 95 Theses on the Power of Indulgences

330 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:12:04pm

re: #319 jaunte

Nice. I have a 5 foot didgeridoo and I love playing it. Very meditative

331 joecitizen  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:12:11pm

re: #316 Killgore Trout

Your god stinks.
/How'd you like them apples?


Newton!

332 rawmuse  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:12:14pm

re: #324 Richard Romano

The way the MSN paints this is so absurd -- McCain never spent a minute in Hagee's church, while Obama sat in Wright's church for 20 years, married him, baptized his kids, and provided mentorship -- who are we kidding?

There you go, thinking rationally. Have you learned nothing?

333 MandyManners  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:12:17pm

re: #318 Occasional Reader

Sure. Do you think it was a legitimate musical expression of disenchantment with the direction of rock in the 70s, or was it merely nihilism?

Bad acid.

334 Allah al Fubar  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:12:22pm

re: #317 unrealizedviewpoint

I know, sorry.

335 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:12:47pm

re: #331 joecitizen

Newton was an ass.

336 mikeymom  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:13:01pm

re: #322 MandyManners

no you di'int (did i spell that right?)

337 jaunte  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:13:13pm

re: #330 Killgore Trout

Is this the part where everyone slaps their didjeridoos on the table?

338 Roger  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:13:18pm

I'm sitting here behind a lousy proxy so can only update so fast and now laughing so hard at the flurry over just two words and the way the thread was going:-)

339 slokat  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:13:20pm

re: #312 joecitizen

Actually, it did happen... would you like a text of the ninety five thesis?

340 jainphx  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:13:22pm

re: #316 Killgore Trout

I'm Sorry, I didn't mean to make you upset. There is nothing you can say that will make me not love my fellow man. I'll leave this site if that s what you want. I love G-D and always will.

341 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:13:29pm

re: #325 Milk Toast Intolerant

"God sent several conquerors to punish Israel."

Is the above statement anti-Semitic?

I'd say it was pretty arrogant for someone to claim to know the will of God. Imagine that?

342 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:13:30pm

re: #334 Allah al Fubar

I know, sorry.

Too late. I reported you already.
/

343 DesertSage  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:13:32pm

re: #311 Maximu§

OMG, It was too hot last weekend and Gorman is just too crowded. I just bought a Honda 2008 450x...has'nt even touched the dirt yet.

It wasn't that crowded. My first choice is to go to Dove Springs, but it's too far when it's so hot.

The 450X will be my next bike, right now I ride an XR650.

344 Sarge1984  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:13:55pm

re: #326 gop_patriot

See? Priceless, I tell you. Priceless. I wish the Arizona Daily Star's writing was as entertaining.

345 Allah al Fubar  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:14:30pm

re: #337 jaunte

Is this the part where everyone slaps their didjeridoos on the table?

Huh? hahahaaa

Mandy first

/she doesn't know I'm a woman.

346 jaybird  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:15:00pm

What we have here is the difference between a 20 minute photo op and a 20 year relationship.

347 reno911  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:15:28pm

re: #328 Allah al Fubar

Allah,

I live in Florida. I am a licensed Master Mariner (unlimited tonnage). You want to talk about the sea. I have spent my entire life there. For the record, I have only driven through the desert a couple of times.

348 lostlakehiker  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:15:33pm

Under the bus is right where Hagee belongs. McCain cannot allow that toxic raver to be on his bus.

349 mikeymom  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:15:37pm

re: #337 jaunte

i dont got no diderrooj--one of those things--and if i did i wouldn't slap it-cause that would be didger-umm abuse

350 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:15:41pm

re: #346 jaybird

What we have here is the difference between a 20 minute photo op and a 20 year relationship.

That's the line.
DingDingDing!

351 joecitizen  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:15:49pm

re: #335 Killgore Trout

Newton was an ass.


Fig!(is what I meant)

352 Richard Romano  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:15:59pm

re: #332 rawmuse

I know I know, forgive me :)

353 realwest  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:16:12pm

re: #273 rawmuse Beat cops make $100K a year where you are? Uh, where is that again? A brand spanking new NYC beat cop (not on probation) makes, iirc, $21,000 for six months then gets kicked all the way up to $24,000 a year until he either gets promoted or is on active duty status for two more years.
I think cops and firefighters are probably the two worst paying jobs (given what they give to all of us) around.

354 Syrah  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:16:21pm

Has Obama rejected the endorsement of Hamas?

355 Milk Toast Intolerant  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:16:27pm

re: #341 really grumpy big dog Johnson

I'd say it was pretty arrogant for someone to claim to know the will of God. Imagine that?

Would it be arrogant to say God loves us and wants us to be in good health and be rich?

356 Allah al Fubar  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:16:31pm

re: #340 jainphx

I'm Sorry, I didn't mean to make you upset. There is nothing you can say that will make me not love my fellow man. I'll leave this site if that s what you want. I love G-D and always will.

Yo, Jain:

We all feel the pain. Most of us use this blog to have a bit of relief, a bit of fun and laughter. Lighten up, babe. We're with you. Okay?

Stay with us... laugh a little. You deserve it.

357 Allah al Fubar  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:16:59pm

re: #347 reno911

Well then baby... LET'S GO FISHING!

358 DesertSage  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:17:10pm

re: #340 jainphx

I'm Sorry, I didn't mean to make you upset. There is nothing you can say that will make me not love my fellow man. I'll leave this site if that s what you want. I love G-D and always will.

Don't leave this site. And especially not because of Killgore. He likes to push peoples buttons.
Just push back and he'll start crying like a little girl.

359 LeePro  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:17:15pm

re: #282 gunjam

...serious biblical disagreements with various tenets of Roman Catholic teaching

Like I said... as in what?

360 joecitizen  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:17:33pm

re: #339 slokat

Actually, it did happen... would you like a text of the ninety five thesis?


I realize the theses exist..I was referring specifically to the 'nailing to the church door' part of it..

361 wolfie  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:18:06pm

re: #324 Richard Romano

The way the MSN paints this is so absurd -- McCain never spent a minute in Hagee's church, while Obama sat in Wright's church for 20 years, married him, baptized his kids, and provided mentorship -- who are we kidding?

The MSM and the Obamaniacs (redundant) are trying to draw a moral equivalence here, although as you point out, it is absurd.

362 Roger  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:18:39pm

re: #348 lostlakehiker

Under the bus is right where Hagee belongs. McCain cannot allow that toxic raver to be on his bus [to a forgotten about career and swift retirement] .

Fix that for you.

Most conservatives and their friends will stay home and work for their communities come November.

363 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:18:47pm
364 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:19:04pm

re: #353 realwest

a tad higher

365 gunjam  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:19:06pm

re: #359 LeePro

Like I said... as in what?

I just gave you some resources. Have you referred to any of them, yet?

366 savage_nation[deleted]  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:19:12pm
367 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:19:52pm

re: #319 jaunte

Didjeridoo
[Link: www.youtube.com...]

Didjeridon't!

(this is the disagreement thread, right?)

368 Roger  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:20:12pm

re: #354 Syrah

Has Obama rejected the endorsement of Hamas?

That one's without preconditions

369 rawmuse  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:20:21pm

re: #353 realwest

Starting salary here is about $80k, but since they are so understaffed, with overtime, plus court appearances, everyone I know on the force is making more than $100k and up to $150k.

I live in San Francisco.

I find that figure for NYPD really low!

370 Sarge1984  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:20:28pm

Uncle!

Weet dreams, all.

371 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:20:32pm

re: #355 Milk Toast Intolerant

Would it be arrogant to say God loves us and wants us to be in good health and be rich?

It would be your opinion. Nothing more and nothing less. Putting feelings and desires as part of who God is is a natural humanization type of characterization of that we cannot see.

Proclaiming to understand the actions and will of God is on a slightly different plane. Neither do I assume to be correct or incorrect, but arrogance only implies to the statement to which I first responded.

372 jainphx  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:20:44pm

re: #356 Allah al Fubar

I would sure like to. Look I'm 67 years old lived a life that few have lived. THe only thing that saved me was faith and prayer. I emptied more gin bottles and gambled away a fortune. Now in my old age I see others going down that path and want to stop them.

373 Allah al Fubar  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:21:08pm

re: #360 joecitizen

Oh, I know that part!

Jesus curses the pharisees for shutting out the Kingdom from those who wish to enter.

Still rings true to today... those who want to 'enter' are shut out by the big holy rollers that think that they hold the keys...

old story.. same result. YOU hold the key, YOU walk through the door, whether spiritual or physical.. YOU hold the key.

/.2$

374 experiencedtraveller  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:22:08pm

We challenge Senator McCain because of slight ideological differences.Yet we sit, smug and aware, that the opposing candidate will be a weakened Obama or a despised Clinton.

It is a mistake. We should rally around McCain now.

375 Boogberg  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:22:11pm

re: #321 realwest

Ya know that's sora interesting, cause I searched your comments back to May 1 and didn't see any mention of Babba Zee - who isn't out here tonight - are you sure you "got into it" with her?

I think it was well over a year ago, realwest. Way, WAY back. :D

376 jaunte  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:22:11pm

re: #367 Occasional Reader

No it isn't!

377 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:22:26pm

re: #340 jainphx

. I'll leave this site if that s what you want.


This is not my site. Stay or go, I have nothing to say about it.

378 Allah al Fubar  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:22:30pm

re: #363 song_and_dance_manGood


Good to know, my friend.

Never cast your beautiful pearls amongst the swine. For they willl.....

379 Richard Romano  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:23:06pm

re: #361 wolfie

True true -- but notice how the MSM never points out these basic facts? They just assume the context is the same -- essentially insulting their readership's intelligence by assuming they won't ask questions...and, sadly, most don't! Ergo, Obamamania.

380 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:23:11pm

re: #351 joecitizen

ha!

381 joecitizen  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:23:50pm

re: #378 Allah al Fubar

Good


Good to know, my friend.

Never cast your beautiful pearls amongst the swine. For they willl.....


pawn them and buy beer..

382 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:24:04pm

re: #97 autoexec

All religious folks believe everything is from God, including Hitler. The problem seems to be people think that he meant Hitler himself was good - which i highly doubt.

The statement...

God sent Adolf Hitler to help Jews reach the promised land.


...does not sound to me that Hagee is saying Hitler was a good person, it sounds to me that Hagee is insinuating that Hitler was specifically sent by God to do the despicable things that he did, and that those horrible things eventually benefited the Jewish people.

I would not be surprised in the least to hear that people of the Jewish faith find Hagee's statement to be disgusting and repellent. I find it to be disgusting and repellent.

383 MilkOfMalfeasance  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:24:46pm

re: #253 J.S.

Nooooooooooo! Nooooooo! Don't please -- let's not start this....It's futile....People have different beliefs, different conceptions...let's just leave it at that!

I second that.

384 Allah al Fubar  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:24:46pm

re: #372 jainphx

I would sure like to. Look I'm 67 years old lived a life that few have lived. THe only thing that saved me was faith and prayer. I emptied more gin bottles and gambled away a fortune. Now in my old age I see others going down that path and want to stop them.

I understand completely. But you have to choose the right forum; many here will be receptive, but many of us grow weary and our hearts wax cold from the world that we live in. So, we rely on a bit of humor. Those of us who have faith know in our hearts that time is short, so why not have a bit of fun?

/turns away preachers at me door. I know the Way

385 realwest  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:24:49pm

re: #354 Syrah I think he didn't before he did!

386 slokat  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:25:28pm

re: #360 joecitizen

The posting of bans on the church door was a part of the custom of the day... this one act created such a stir, because of the content of the thesis, that it started the reformation & caused Luther to be a heretic.

Not a myth, plenty of documentation, simple history.

/I think there are even some fossils from the event in the Smithsonian

387 Alexander  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:25:35pm

My only question now is what religious conservative's endorsement would he accept?

McCain must have a lot of disposable friends.

388 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:25:44pm

re: #384 Allah al Fubar

What a wonderful response.

389 Vikingstar  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:25:51pm

Speaking as an "Evangelical Zionist", I see the return of Israel as a pretty direct fulfillment of lots of scriptures. Assuming that this is true, would God gather His people back to Israel in order to allow them to be killed? The same scriptures (Ezekial chapters 36-39, for example) that talk about the Jews returning also predict that God will supernaturally protect them against their enemies. It seems to me that you have to be alive to be protected.

390 Maximu§  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:26:16pm

re: #343 DesertSage

It wasn't that crowded. My first choice is to go to Dove Springs, but it's too far when it's so hot.

The 450X will be my next bike, right now I ride an XR650.

Lol, Dove Springs is exactly where we are going with a large group. I like riding the trail #103 that goes past the hill everyone camps at and then to the #328 and to the #47 and onwards....our rides usually average about 30-50 miles.

I guess your XR650 is street legal too? Thats one big machine...I also have a 2005 250x thats almost perfect, but the dealer offered me only $2000 trade in value for it and I thought I may as well just keep it....now my Garage is really full.

Do you have an RV?

391 Richard Romano  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:26:31pm

re: #372 jainphx

I would sure like to. Look I'm 67 years old lived a life that few have lived. THe only thing that saved me was faith and prayer. I emptied more gin bottles and gambled away a fortune. Now in my old age I see others going down that path and want to stop them.

God bless you Jainphx -- but remember, people need to live their own lives, and come to the same conclusions as you have, God willing. God's light shines in and through us; He'll make the seed grow (1 Cor. 3:7).

392 savage_nation[deleted]  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:26:33pm
393 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:26:33pm

re: #382 Slumbering Behemoth

Hagee is insinuating that Hitler was specifically sent by God to do the despicable things that he did, and that those horrible things eventually benefited the Jewish people.


So the holocaust was good for Jews? I think it's important to separate Biblical interpretation and reality here. The holocaust was in no way beneficial to Jews.

394 abolitionist  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:26:37pm

re: #154 Charles

Hagee was not misquoted or taken out of context. Here's the recording:

[Link: www.youtube.com...]

Yes, that's a pretty effed-up [mis-]interpretation of OT scripture.

Considering that he also seems to have embraced the meme that AIDS is a genocidal tool of the Great Satan (much as Louis Farrakhan, Mahlik Zulu Shabazz, James Cone and Rev Wright have) I have to wonder where he got those ideas.

395 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:26:37pm

I'm going to bed!

(Are not!)

AM, TOO!

Good night.

(BAD night!)

Oh, shut up.

396 Suzette  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:27:05pm

re: #221 jaunte

Hagee on Hurricane Katrina:

By his reasoning it doesn't explain Hurricane Rita which was bad also.
/I know I experienced it.

397 Ringo the Gringo  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:27:44pm

Hagee strikes me as a nut.

I've never heard of Parsley before today, but his comments about Islam seemed fine to me.

The trick with these TV preachers is to just keep your distance. If they offer their endorsement, smile but don't say thanks....and never show up to shake their hand.

398 jainphx  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:27:47pm

re: #391 Richard Romano

THank you!

399 Kepler Sings  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:28:09pm

McCain rejected the months-old endorsement of Texas preacher John Hagee after an audio recording surfaced in which the preacher said God sent Adolf Hitler to help Jews reach the promised land.

So nobody but Hagee has noticed that the Jews would not have had that small window of possibility of becoming a nation again if the horrible Holocaust, that the world ignored while it happened, had never occurred? Not saying God made this happen, don't know Hagee's exact quote, but I detect a hell of a lot of disingenuous outrage place on this statement.

It is nearly a historical fact that the Holocaust is maybe, just maybe, the only thing that could have made it possible for the Jews to regain their homeland, and even then it was barely won, what with the asshole stand of the Brits, and America not much help either.

400 M. Bensson-Levi  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:28:20pm

Howdy all,

Hope that I'm not too late.

Catholics, all Christians, for that matter, break the first commandment, "Thou shalt have no G-d before Me". Jews are extremely exclusive, and damned smug about their "chosen people" nonsense, which is why they are universally despised, and generally of short stature. Hindus are polytheistic idol worshipers, and Shintoists are primitive ancestor worshipers. Buddhists are basically nihilists with a prophet, and an "8 fold path" to nothingness. Animists are the true "tree huggers", and Muslims are satanic psychopaths, as we all know. All the other religions are even worse, including Atheism.

I feel like Eris, after she rolled the Golden Apple into the god's feast. :-) Greek Polytheism is also flawed, and not the "True Way".

Discuss this among yourselves, while I go get a snack.

401 realwest  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:28:31pm

re: #362 Roger Hey Roger, I sure hope you're wrong about that - if most conservatives and their friends stay home on election day, then not only will we wind up with Obama as POTUS (assuming, of course, he does in fact get the nomination) but a helluva lot more Democrat Senators and Congressmen.
McCain was certainly not my first or second or maybe even third choice, but he's a whole HELLUVA LOT BETTER than Obama with a Dem controlled congress.

402 Allah al Fubar  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:29:13pm

re: #381 joecitizen

pawn them and buy beer..

Blasphemy. Okay, off with your head.

/as long as I don't have to see it, like, actually being chopped off or anything.. or stoning you.. or anything like that, or throwing you off a building or anything like that..

OMG Just Kidding

403 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:29:13pm

re: #397 Ringo the Gringo

The trick with these TV preachers is to just keep your distance.

You need experience Dr. Gene Scott
He's outright insane - A laugh a minute.

404 LeePro  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:29:18pm

re: #321 realwest

Ya know that's sora interesting, cause I searched your comments back to May 1 and didn't see any mention of Babba Zee - who isn't out here tonight - are you sure you "got into it" with her?

Good catch!

Hi, {realwest}!

405 Maximu§  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:29:39pm

My wife is watching another one of her stupid "reality" shows...this one concerns the life of a Meter-Maid.

406 realwest  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:30:10pm

re: #364 unrealizedviewpoint Whoa, they sure changed things since I left! Good for 'em too, but even at those salaries I think they are underpaid.

407 The Other Les  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:30:12pm

re: #400 M. Bensson-Levi

Hail Eris!

408 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:30:34pm

re: #101 MandyManners

Yo' momma' wears army boots.

My momma does, and she could stomp a waffle pattern in yer butt so fast that Obama would be finished eating before you had a chance to ask any questions.

/don't know if that makes any sense, but it was meant to be a joke

409 MandyManners  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:31:03pm

re: #400 M. Bensson-Levi

Talk about a holy hand grenade.

410 Ringo the Gringo  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:31:03pm

re: #403 unrealizedviewpoint

You need experience Dr. Gene Scott
He's outright insane - A laugh a minute.

I used to live a few blocks away from his church in Los Angeles.

Great entertainment....a first class nutcase.

411 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:31:03pm

re: #400 M. Bensson-Levi

I wonder what he really thinks?

412 realwest  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:31:30pm

re: #369 rawmuse Well I was wrong - as unrealizedviewpoint pointed out to me in his #364.

413 MandyManners  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:31:39pm

re: #408 Slumbering Behemoth

Oh, I took it as such. I'm smiling.

414 joecitizen  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:31:45pm

re: #386 slokat

The posting of bans on the church door was a part of the custom of the day... this one act created such a stir, because of the content of the thesis, that it started the reformation & caused Luther to be a heretic.

Not a myth, plenty of documentation, simple history.

/I think there are even some fossils from the event in the Smithsonian


actually things kinda rolled out over a fairly long period of time though these theses were obviously crucial..this 'act' did not 'cause' Luther to be a heretic,he had been heretical for quite some time..history is never 'simple'..have never been to this smithsonian of which you speak,wazzit,some kinda museum or sumpin'?/////

415 MilkOfMalfeasance  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:31:49pm

re: #399 Kepler Sings

McCain rejected the months-old endorsement of Texas preacher John Hagee after an audio recording surfaced in which the preacher said God sent Adolf Hitler to help Jews reach the promised land.

So nobody but Hagee has noticed that the Jews would not have had that small window of possibility of becoming a nation again if the horrible Holocaust, that the world ignored while it happened, had never occurred? Not saying God made this happen, don't know Hagee's exact quote, but I detect a hell of a lot of disingenuous outrage place on this statement.

It is nearly a historical fact that the Holocaust is maybe, just maybe, the only thing that could have made it possible for the Jews to regain their homeland, and even then it was barely won, what with the asshole stand of the Brits, and America not much help either.

Thats the first time I have heard that line of thought. Yeesh. I always thought the US and UK sacrificed a lot.

416 savage_nation[deleted]  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:32:46pm
417 realwest  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:32:58pm

re: #375 Boogberg Oh ok, my memory hardly goes back that far these days! Although I do find it hard to believe that she would support him.

418 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:33:01pm

re: #406 realwest

Whoa, they sure changed things since I left! Good for 'em too, but even at those salaries I think they are underpaid.

$35,000 leaves $5000 for food after the rent is paid. :)

419 DesertSage  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:33:04pm

re: #390 Maximu§

Yes, the 650 is street legal. I do a lot of dual-sport rides. LA-B2V last year.
I don't have an RV, but one of the guys that I ride with all the time does, so we just use his.

If you ever want to sell the 250X let me know, my son is looking for one.

420 Allah al Fubar  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:33:08pm

re: #389 Vikingstar

Speaking as an "Evangelical Zionist", I see the return of Israel as a pretty direct fulfillment of lots of scriptures. Assuming that this is true, would God gather His people back to Israel in order to allow them to be killed? The same scriptures (Ezekial chapters 36-39, for example) that talk about the Jews returning also predict that God will supernaturally protect them against their enemies. It seems to me that you have to be alive to be protected.

The key to the Scriptures in in the times. It will be ten more years.

Everything happens in 70 year increments. Ten years.

421 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:33:39pm

re: #405 Maximu§

this one concerns the life of a Meter-Maid.


I find it fascinating that we've become culturally obsessed with people that actually work for a living: Fishermen, loggers, cooks, truckdrivers, etc/. It does not bode well for us as a civilization.

422 rawmuse  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:34:07pm

re: #412 realwest

Well I was wrong - as unrealizedviewpoint pointed out to me in his #364.

check it out for yourself, I did :)

423 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:34:15pm

re: #410 Ringo the Gringo

I used to live a few blocks away from his church in Los Angeles.

Great entertainment....a first class nutcase.

I'm gonna check the TV listings and see if he's still on.

424 NY Nana  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:34:58pm

re: #160 jainphx

He hasn't said anything disparaging to the Jews.

Sorry, but as a Jew I found it as offensive and Jew-hating as anything I have seen. And I sadly know Jew-hate when I see it. It is far, far worse than Ann Coulter's disgusting 'Jews need to be perfected' statement.

We brought on the Holocaust? May G-d forgive him for what he essentially said. I cannot.

Please see Charles' post #154.

I will still vote for McCain, but am not that happy about it after seeing this, but there is just no other option.

The 2 Demonrats are both vile....and dangerous to our country. McCain is neither of those 2 things .

425 reine.de.tout  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:34:58pm

re: #396 Suzette

By his reasoning it doesn't explain Hurricane Rita which was bad also.
/I know I experienced it.

Rita was at least just as destructive as Katrina, only in places nobody ever heard of. I know, here in BR we experienced BOTH of 'em, and Rita was worse on me than Katrina.

426 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:35:03pm

re: #414 joecitizen

actually things kinda rolled out over a fairly long period of time though these theses were obviously crucial..this 'act' did not 'cause' Luther to be a heretic,he had been heretical for quite some time..history is never 'simple'..have never been to this smithsonian of which you speak,wazzit,some kinda museum or sumpin'?/////

What, you never watched the Smithsons?

427 slokat  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:35:16pm

re: #414 joecitizen

So, you've studied Luther? And the reformation...

I have most of his l;etters, sermons & writings and all the books ever written about him at my disposal. In German or English.

428 realwest  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:35:51pm

re: #395 Occasional Reader Less Filling!

429 Milk Toast Intolerant  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:36:11pm

re: #371 really grumpy big dog Johnson

It would be your opinion. Nothing more and nothing less. Putting feelings and desires as part of who God is is a natural humanization type of characterization of that we cannot see.

Proclaiming to understand the actions and will of God is on a slightly different plane. Neither do I assume to be correct or incorrect, but arrogance only implies to the statement to which I first responded.

Fair enough. However, I believe there are some things God do want us to know about, sometimes before and sometimes after they happened. I have a little interest in biblical prophecy, because I am curious to know if and how the world I live in will be impacted by the current religious and political events. Looking back at the parable about the fig tree, the vast majority of bible scholars link that parable to the rebirth of Israel. You might call that arrogance. Looking forward to the future, if the rapture should happen, what then? Will you consider it arrogance or perceptive discernment? In the Bible, God basically said over and over that He would tell us these things so that we wouldn't be surprised when they happen, but He's not going to lay it out in layman's terms for the wicked to see, too.

430 slokat  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:36:19pm

re: #427 slokat

Pimf: a stray ; showed up in that post...

431 joecitizen  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:36:28pm

re: #403 unrealizedviewpoint

You need experience Dr. Gene Scott
He's outright insane - A laugh a minute.


and also very dead with a wacko witch left in his place..fitting,somehow..

432 Adrenalyn  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:36:36pm

re: #52 Ojoe

No, I think we need better religion.

The human will always want religion.

astoundingly well made point

433 realwest  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:37:16pm

re: #404 LeePro Hey there {Lee} must be a full moon out tonight, no?!

434 Roger  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:38:42pm

Why could a fellow like J.R. McKinney's aim be so true and his hand unwavering while being shot at and while shooting back?

/Never forget the poor men of Lyons.

435 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:39:05pm

re: #410 Ringo the Gringo

I used to live a few blocks away from his church in Los Angeles.

Great entertainment....a first class nutcase.

Dr. Gene Scott
24/7 nutcase pre-recorded entertainment

436 Kepler Sings  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:39:10pm

If it has not been pointed out in this thread, Hagee is one of the first major Evangelicals to bring Christians and Jews together and has received death threats for his stand with Jews and Israel, his "Night to Honor Israel," conventions brings millions of dollars to help persecuted Jews reach Israel, and many groups come to those conventions to distribute literature about the evil Christians have done to Jews through history, he encourages Christianity to repent to the Jews for ages of persecution.

I think he can be allowed his viewpoints of God directing human history, even if it is in error, who here would know otherwise? Maybe like Hagee you know God's thinking and planning. The irony of all the intolerance and error broadcast in the name of hating intolerance.

437 Allah al Fubar  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:39:10pm

re: #400 M. Bensson-Levi

Howdy all,

Hope that I'm not too late.

Catholics, all Christians, for that matter, break the first commandment, "Thou shalt have no G-d before Me". Jews are extremely exclusive, and damned smug about their "chosen people" nonsense, which is why they are universally despised, and generally of short stature. Hindus are polytheistic idol worshipers, and Shintoists are primitive ancestor worshipers. Buddhists are basically nihilists with a prophet, and an "8 fold path" to nothingness. Animists are the true "tree huggers", and Muslims are satanic psychopaths, as we all know. All the other religions are even worse, including Atheism.

I feel like Eris, after she rolled the Golden Apple into the god's feast. :-) Greek Polytheism is also flawed, and not the "True Way".

Discuss this among yourselves, while I go get a snack.

Well, let me tell you something mister M. Benson Levi:

We will stand together on the Last Day.

And, this is a fact. Whether you like it or not, you'll have to stand with us dirty scoundrel Christians, Buddhists and others who come to your aid in the worst of times. We are all unwashed. We protect one another in times of need. We will not forsake our brethren. You are not elevated amongst the masses because of the chance of your birth.

Love One Another.

438 LeePro  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:39:57pm

re: #349 mikeymom

i dont got no diderrooj--one of those things--and if i did i wouldn't slap it-cause that would be didger-umm abuse

ROFLMAO

439 Ringo the Gringo  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:40:16pm

re: #423 unrealizedviewpoint

I'm gonna check the TV listings and see if he's still on.

If he is, it'll be a re-run...He died a few years ago.

440 M. Bensson-Levi  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:40:32pm

re: #422 rawmuse

San Fran Cisco! What the hell's the matter with you!

A sharp guy like you, and you couldn't figure out that if you spoke with a light, swishy lithp, and emulated gay mannerisms, you be walkin' that beat right now!

441 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:40:42pm

re: #431 joecitizen

and also very dead with a wacko witch left in his place..fitting,somehow..

I had no idea.

442 joecitizen  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:40:48pm

re: #427 slokat

So, you've studied Luther? And the reformation...

I have most of his l;etters, sermons & writings and all the books ever written about him at my disposal. In German or English.


cool..and yet all of that and 3 bucks'll buy ya a beer..rabble rouser lover..heh

443 The Other Les  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:41:09pm

re: #421 Killgore Trout

I find it fascinating that we've become culturally obsessed with people that actually work for a living: Fishermen, loggers, cooks, truckdrivers, etc/. It does not bode well for us as a civilization.

I don't see how the virtual glorification of the productive would constitute a symptom of societal decay.

But then I like to read Ayn Rand.

444 slokat  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:41:12pm

re: #433 realwest

Intellicast claims that it is "Waning Gibbous"

445 realwest  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:41:22pm

re: #421 Killgore Trout
Hey Killgore - I'm not really so sure we're all that fascinated by them, but they are cheap TV shows to produce and with all the money the MSM is losing for the networks, they hadda come up with some way to make more money than they spend!

Secret confession: I like watching some of those shows cause I really don't know what some of those occupations entail (like Ice Road Truckers, for example).

446 Boogberg  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:41:33pm

re: #417 realwest

Oh ok, my memory hardly goes back that far these days! Although I do find it hard to believe that she would support him.

Hell, Maybe it wasn't her. I don't remember exactly how we got on the subject of Hagee at the time but for some reason her name is lodged in my memory. I guess I should go back and check.

447 rawmuse  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:41:57pm

re: #440 M. Bensson-Levi

Story of my life...

448 Maximu§  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:42:05pm

re: #419 DesertSage

Yes, the 650 is street legal. I do a lot of dual-sport rides. LA-B2V last year.
I don't have an RV, but one of the guys that I ride with all the time does, so we just use his.

If you ever want to sell the 250X let me know, my son is looking for one.

Its perfect, I put a "Hot wheels" sticker kit on it and its never been crashed....well, not seriously.

I heard Honda is doing fuel injection on the 450x next year....so thats what you should wait for. Course I have no patience because I'm sick of getting dusted by all my friends when we drag race down the desert trails.

449 Suzette  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:42:26pm

re: #425 reine.de.tout

Rita was at least just as destructive as Katrina, only in places nobody ever heard of. I know, here in BR we experienced BOTH of 'em, and Rita was worse on me than Katrina.

Hurricane Rita was devesating! It wiped the beach town of Holly Beach completely off the map. It was heatbreaking to see so much damage.
And a very scary storm! Sorry you had to experience both!

450 slokat  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:42:36pm

re: #442 joecitizen

One reason he married his wife (the former nun) was that she brewed the best beer in town...

451 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:43:56pm

I like my pastor. Last night, since my Boss is in town, went out for a coupla beers. My preacher is there with a fella I go to church with (fella's havin' a beer). Pretty girl came in sat half the bar away.

As my pastor was leaving he came up behind me and said smugly "Yield not to temptation, my son." To which I replied, "Well as long as you're here I won't!"

452 joecitizen  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:44:33pm

re: #450 slokat

One reason he married his wife (the former nun) was that she brewed the best beer in town...


smart man that Luther..

453 wolfie  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:44:42pm

re: #400 M. Bensson-Levi

How dare you ignore the Sikhs ! Bigot !

/

454 Adrenalyn  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:45:09pm

re: #168 MilkOfMalfeasance

You used the "H" word, HOW DARE YOU!?!?

sorry, I can be offensive at times
when I merely mean to be insensitive

455 reine.de.tout  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:45:26pm

re: #449 Suzette

Hurricane Rita was devesating! It wiped the beach town of Holly Beach completely off the map. It was heatbreaking to see so much damage.
And a very scary storm! Sorry you had to experience both!

Well, thank ya! We caught the southwest side of Katrina, which is the "good" part of the storm, but we got the northeast corner of Rita, and that's the one that caused the tree to fall on the house. MINIMAL DAMAGE, thank goodness.

456 Maximu§  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:45:30pm

re: #421 Killgore Trout

I find it fascinating that we've become culturally obsessed with people that actually work for a living: Fishermen, loggers, cooks, truckdrivers, etc/. It does not bode well for us as a civilization.

Truck drivers....you just nailed the next reality show. Seriously, I hate these stupid shows...my wife loves them and I want to put my size 11 through the plasma when she watches them.

457 realwest  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:45:47pm

Going to the next thread - can't wait to see how even someone as bright as Charles could pick the Stupiest Politician of the Day!

458 mikeymom  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:46:35pm

re: #446 Boogberg

word to the wise--dont ever say something you are not absolutely sure of regarding other lgf-ers, cause someone will fact-check your ass and hit it with a digeradoo--umm that thing-if you are wrong!

459 M. Bensson-Levi  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:46:52pm

re: #437 Allah al Fubar

Hey! Let me amend my statement. Everyone can discuss this EXCEPT YOU!... :-)

And you'll kindly refrain from that libel about the accident of my birth! My parents tried for a very long time to have me! I was NOT an accident, as some vicious rumor mongers have implied. That's a lie! A LIE!

460 Roger  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:47:36pm

re: #401 realwest

Sorry realwest, but my 2006 predictions were on and I get no other vibe from the conservative peoples for 2008. Though I think by 2010 folks will be royally riled.

461 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:47:47pm

re: #443 The Other Les

I don't see how the virtual glorification of the productive would constitute a symptom of societal decay.


We've become a culture that watches people work on tv because it's an oddity. We only glorify like the 19th century aristocrats idealized pastoral shepherds and milkmaids. They hung paintings on the walls of their mansions and we watch then on tv. It's the same thing.

462 gromster  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:47:56pm

re: #235 LeePro

The usual stuff.

The Roman Catholic Church rejects the teaching that salvation is by faith alone.

In its place the RCC injects unbiblical teachings, such as that the sacraments are necessary for salvation, as well as good deeds; one must be baptized into the RCC, etc.

They also reject sola scriptura. In its place they put the Pope (dogma) and church "Tradition" on the same level of authority as the written Word of God (the Bible).

That in turn has led to all sorts of false teachings, such as, for example, all the stuff about Mary (that she is co-redeemer with Christ, that she was bodily ascended/didn't die, that she was a perpetual virgin, etc.).

To read more about it, please visit:
Roman Catholicism - at A and O Ministries

Roman Catholicism - at CARM

463 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:48:08pm
464 LeePro  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:48:18pm

re: #365 gunjam

I just gave you some resources. Have you referred to any of them, yet?

Sorry, but you are the one who made unfounded statements about my church. And you expect me to look up your proof?

You say that there are "...serious biblical disagreements with various tenets of Roman Catholic teaching."

All I ask is what tenets of the Roman Catholic Church go against the Bible.

If you cannot name them, then I cannot engage.

465 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:49:03pm

re: #445 realwest

I'm guilty of watching the crab fishing show. It's amazing how hard those guys work.

466 Suzette  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:49:37pm

re: #455 reine.de.tout

Reine....it hit just about directly my home town. You could not imagine all the trees down.....the damage. And a huge tree went down in my yard just it went towards the road and not the my house.
We had damage....but it could have been worse!

467 joecitizen  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:50:01pm

re: #463 song_and_dance_man

Whether you like it or not we are the end of this age.

We are near the time of the King of the Ages.

that is just too ridiculous..get a grip,man

468 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:50:21pm

re: #393 Killgore Trout

So the holocaust was good for Jews?

I have no idea what Hagee meant to imply by his statement, but that could be one way to interpret it. When he says that Hitler was sent by God to help the Jews find the promised land, well...

I think it's important to separate Biblical interpretation and reality here. The holocaust was in no way beneficial to Jews.

I don't think any reasonable, thinking person would say it was, however Hagee's statement darn near suggests just that. For someone to say "God sent Adolf Hitler to help Jews reach the promised land" is incredibly ignorant and irresponsible, and that person has no grounds to complain when people criticize such an outrageous statement.

469 reine.de.tout  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:50:23pm

re: #462 gromster


That in turn has led to all sorts of false teachings, such as, for example, all the stuff about Mary (that she is co-redeemer with Christ, that she was bodily ascended/didn't die, that she was a perpetual virgin, etc.).

I don't recall ever learning those things in Catechism class.

470 Roger  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:50:39pm

re: #208 Allah al Fubar

Keep telling it, Brother. You see it, I see it.

Exasperating.

To find the whore, find the john.

471 Adrenalyn  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:51:29pm

re: #287 Allah al Fubar

I need a prayer.

For my ... um. dock. It's in bad shape.

Obama can fix my dock.

And everyone will have free gas.

/heh

somebody looked under a dock
there they saw a rock
it wasn't a rock
it was a rock lobster

472 M. Bensson-Levi  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:51:40pm

re: #453 wolfie

Yeah, and what's with their long hair and knife wielding garbage. Sorry I left them out. They suck too.

473 Kepler Sings  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:52:24pm

re: #415 MilkOfMalfeasance

Thats the first time I have heard that line of thought. Yeesh. I always thought the US and UK sacrificed a lot.

Too tired to research right now, I do remember the Brits actively fought the Israelis. The first Jewish Leaders were actually what was considered terrorists that blew up a Hotel where British officers were staying, the historians here can bear witness to that.

The Americans, if I remember correctly, would not give the Israelis guns, supplies, or any help when they were surrounded by their enemies, the Western powers sucked in all of this, we knew the Jews were being eliminated in Europe during WWII there was some ship filled with Jews that Roosevelt sent back to Germany with most, if not many dying in the death camps. We knew, our elites knew, what was happening, may they burn in Hell for their inaction in those days.

So maybe men like Hagee have a view of history where they try to salvage something worthwhile out of the ashes of the Holocaust, a damn site better than our leaders have done, or are doing even now.

474 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:52:28pm

I was in a hippy's house today.

475 reine.de.tout  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:53:04pm

re: #466 Suzette

Reine....it hit just about directly my home town. You could not imagine all the trees down.....the damage. And a huge tree went down in my yard just it went towards the road and not the my house.
We had damage....but it could have been worse!

Glad you were lucky! I needed to go to Houston a few months after Katrina, and when we passed through Lake Charles, all I could see were blue tarp roofs, trees down everywhere, etc. Hubby was evacuated from an oil rig before Katrina, and I read where that rig has just now finished being repaired.

476 jainphx  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:53:15pm

re: #424 NY Nana

I'm very sorry. It's just that I know he is a devote Lover of the Jewish people and nation. I'm trying now to find the passage he referred to, if and when I find it I'll post it. I myself as a Christian would fight to the death to protect Israel and Israeli's.

477 LeePro  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:54:06pm

re: #384 Allah al Fubar

I understand completely. But you have to choose the right forum; many here will be receptive, but many of us grow weary and our hearts wax cold from the world that we live in. So, we rely on a bit of humor. Those of us who have faith know in our hearts that time is short, so why not have a bit of fun?

/turns away preachers at me door. I know the Way

Beautiful!

478 LeePro  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:55:00pm

re: #396 Suzette

{Suzette}!

Good to see you again!

479 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:55:11pm

re: #474 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Wasn't a happy hippy.

480 Suzette  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:55:48pm

re: #475 reine.de.tout

Around Lake Charles is were I live. My heart just broke at all the damage. But we made it through. :)

481 reine.de.tout  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:57:12pm

re: #480 Suzette

Around Lake Charles is were I live. My heart just broke at all the damage. But we made it through. :)

Suzette -shoot me an e-mail, please, nic is blue.

482 Suzette  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:57:28pm

re: #478 LeePro

{ { Lee } }! How are you doing? Fine I hope. I have been sleeping better...I'm not up as late. New meds. :)

483 BigJohn  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:58:43pm

re: #176 Mich-again


If you will it, it is no dream. ----- John Goodman channeling Theodore Hertzel

484 DesertSage  Thu, May 22, 2008 9:58:56pm

re: #424 NY Nana

Hi Nana, I ♥ you like a mother...you know that.

I am no fan of this paster, or whatever he is. I'm of Jewish heritage as you know. I really try to stay out of the Christian/Evangelical arguments....they just don't interest me. I have no interest in defending this guy and that's not my intention at all.

That being said, I've read his statements in full context and this is what I discern from them:

When he talks about the Exodus, what he's trying to say is that the Jews brought the wrath of Pharaoh upon themselves. He's correct. The Jews could have stayed in Egypt and lived miserable lives, and Pharaoh would have left them alone. They new that by leaving Egypt they would bring the wrath of Pharaoh. They chose to do it. There is nothing wrong with what the Jews did, in fact they made the right choice. But they new that their choice would have consequences....and it did.

The fathers of our country made a choice also. They knew that by declaring independence from England they they would incur the wrath of King George. They were right, it did. Doesn't mean that it was wrong....it wasn't. In fact it was absolutely necessary. And there was consequences.
When Hagee says that the Jews brought upon the wrath of Pharaoh, I think he's saying it in the same context.

The problem he gets into is when he tries to equate Pharaoh to Hitler. When he says that Jews brought on the wrath of Hitler, and that God wanted it that way so the Jews would return to their homeland, that's where he's jumped the shark. That's what has gotten so many people upset.
I don't get upset about it. I know what he was trying to say, he just didn't say it very well. And I just don't agree with his analogy.

485 Roger  Thu, May 22, 2008 10:00:17pm

re: #476 jainphx

Jeremiah 16

486 MilkOfMalfeasance  Thu, May 22, 2008 10:01:05pm

re: #454 Adrenalyn

lol

487 NY Nana  Thu, May 22, 2008 10:01:24pm

re: #473 Kepler Sings

This video is magnificent, and it shows what happened to the Jews on the SS St. Louis...hard to watch.

488 Suzette  Thu, May 22, 2008 10:01:47pm

re: #481 reine.de.tout

Just sent...reine....check your e-mail and let me know if you got it.

489 LeePro  Thu, May 22, 2008 10:03:07pm

re: #433 realwest

Hey there {Lee} must be a full moon out tonight, no?!

Must be...

;)

490 Irenike  Thu, May 22, 2008 10:05:16pm

Hagee was interviewed by Dennis Prager last month. I listened to the whole interview. I thought his views of Hurricane Katrina were nutty, but so what? I've had enviro-whackos tell me Katrina was punishment for not signing the Kyoto protocols. Same kind of irrationality.

I got an email citing HuffPo and Moveon.org's opinion that Hagee is an anti-semite because of his comments about Hitler and the state of Israel. If memory serves me correctly, didn't the Sixth Lubavitcher Rebbe believe that the Holocaust was punishment for Jewish transgressions? I strenuously disagree with this view, but I'm only mentioning it because I don't think that seeing Hitler as punishment (or as a cause of the state of Israel coming into existence) automatically brands one as an anti-semite.

HuffPo and Moveon.org are trying to make a lot of hay with this. I don't blame McCain for throwing him and Parsley over the side. As long as it helps him win the election, so be it.

491 Kepler Sings  Thu, May 22, 2008 10:05:34pm

NY Nana

Thanks for the historical reference. When I heard of that story years ago, I have never forgiven Roosevelt, and I am not Jewish...no excuse for this NONE!

492 reine.de.tout  Thu, May 22, 2008 10:05:43pm

re: #488 Suzette

Just sent...reine....check your e-mail and let me know if you got it.

Got it, sent you one back.

493 LeePro  Thu, May 22, 2008 10:06:38pm

re: #454 Adrenalyn

sorry, I can be offensive at times
when I merely mean to be insensitive

Good for you!

And never EVER change your avatar!

494 NY Nana  Thu, May 22, 2008 10:08:10pm

re: #476 jainphx

I am sure that you would do that...but his words are there for all the world to see.

I am going to get off this thread..it is very upsetting...and too many memories of WW2...I am only a few years older than you..70, and the Holocaust has been with me for nearly all my life.

I cannot forgive nor can I forgive...and if someone's words demean the Jews, I will not be quiet.

At least six million died..probably more. How dare Hagee say what he did?

495 MilkOfMalfeasance  Thu, May 22, 2008 10:08:35pm

re: #473 Kepler Sings

Interesting. I will look into what you are saying. I can honestly say that I have never heard of that series of events. Maybe because of the propaganda machine, or just a failed education. I guess it seems that throughout history, some things that should be simple moral decisions are turned into something vastly more complicated than they should be.

496 Suzette  Thu, May 22, 2008 10:12:12pm

re: #492 reine.de.tout

Just replied! :)

497 LeePro  Thu, May 22, 2008 10:16:09pm

re: #482 Suzette

I'm as good as my dental problems will let me be! LOL.

SO-O-O-O-O-O glad your new meds are working!

498 Irenike  Thu, May 22, 2008 10:17:24pm

#473 Kepler Sings

Martin Gilbert wrote a book called "Auschwitz and the Allies" where he talks about why the US and Great Britain didn't just bomb the train tracks leading to the death camps. He also wrote "Churchill and the Jews," which I am now reading. Churchill argued in favor of a Jewish state long before it was popular to do so, and long before Israel came into existence. So, not all Brits were bad. Churchill was one of the giants of history -- morally astute, politically prescient, an incredible writer and speaker, and unbelieveably brave and tenacious. He is one of my heroes.

499 Suzette  Thu, May 22, 2008 10:17:43pm

re: #497 LeePro

I have dental problems too! Aren't they a b*tch!

500 Boogberg  Thu, May 22, 2008 10:21:34pm

Realwest,

It took a bit of searching, but I found the thread:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I think you can only search two months at a time. That's probably a good thing.

501 Kepler Sings  Thu, May 22, 2008 10:22:54pm

re: #498 Irenike

Churchill was a giant, and they cut him down right after WWII. It was the British Foreign Office, much like our State Dept, filled with Jew-hating Arabists (and ass-kissers for oil) that threw the Jews under the bus whenever possible, just like our worthless State Dept does now, Condi Rice is no prize.

502 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, May 22, 2008 10:26:41pm

re: #221 jaunte

Hagee on Hurricane Katrina:

I believe that New Orleans had a level of sin that was offensive to God, and they are--were recipients of the judgment of God for that. The newspaper carried the story in our local area that was not carried nationally that there was to be a homosexual parade on the Monday that the Katrina came, and the promise of that parade was that it was going to reach a level of sexuality never demonstrated before in any of the other Gay Pride parades. So I believe that the judgment of God is a very real thing.

I've heard similarly puerile proclamations from other t.v. salesmen, and they all ignore the fact that said hurricane wreaked great devastation, death and destruction on many other surrounding states, including Texas.

Someone looking to make a fast buck or push an agenda could just as easily make the juvenile assertion that Katrina's impact on Texas was divine retribution for the policies of the Bush administration.

Not all forms of moonbattery come from leftist sources.

503 Charles the Hammer  Thu, May 22, 2008 10:28:10pm

re: #462 gromster

The usual stuff.

The Roman Catholic Church rejects the teaching that salvation is by faith alone.

In its place the RCC injects unbiblical teachings, such as that the sacraments are necessary for salvation, as well as good deeds; one must be baptized into the RCC, etc.

They also reject sola scriptura. In its place they put the Pope (dogma) and church "Tradition" on the same level of authority as the written Word of God (the Bible).

That in turn has led to all sorts of false teachings, such as, for example, all the stuff about Mary (that she is co-redeemer with Christ, that she was bodily ascended/didn't die, that she was a perpetual virgin, etc.).

First, re: Hagee: He never called the Latin church the "Whore of Babylon." He called the "end church" as the apostate church. This is the usual interpretation of apocalyptic Protestant variants in looking at the Book of Revelation. Hewitt and Medved have gone over these alleged "quotes," and have played the clips repeatedly and completely. That Hagee ever called the Latin church the "Whore of Babylon" is a lie.

Regarding the allegation of saying that Hitler was somehow good (the clear implication of this reporting is that Hagee is an anti-Semite) - this, too, is a lie. Hagee was using the very common idea that the Jewish people have been constantly attacked by worldly leaders to punish them from turning away from God. This is a very common theme in the OT.

I am not a supporter of Hagee, and think his theology is completely wrong. But, regardless, this allegations are completely wrong.

In regards to the post I quoted above:

Salvation is not by faith alone. Nowhere in Scripture, or in the history of the Church did the Faith every include the idea of "sola fide." That, like "sola scriptura," was a novelty created in the 16th century. In fact, the the Apostle tells us in the book of James, we are NOT saved by faith alone. But, I would hazard that this isn't the place for a theological discussion.

Oh, and the Latin church was never the "head" of the Church, only the first in honor. There is a lot of pre-Reformation history that is not known very widely here in the West. Of course, the Latin church doesn't do much to correct this.

the sinner,

Charles

504 Boogberg  Thu, May 22, 2008 10:39:14pm

re: #458 mikeymom

word to the wise--dont ever say something you are not absolutely sure of regarding other lgf-ers, cause someone will fact-check your ass and hit it with a digeradoo--umm that thing-if you are wrong!

I'm hearin' ya. It's weird though how something can get tucked away back in your mind and simply mentioning a name like "Hagee" will bring it back clear as day.

505 average_guy  Thu, May 22, 2008 10:40:52pm

I'm late downthread but my 2 cents:

Hagee is wack with what he said, but Parsley pretty much spoke the truth on this matter.

506 NY Nana  Thu, May 22, 2008 10:46:33pm

re: #491 Kepler Sings

Some things are seared in my memory...and learning after the war that one Jew was too many? My family on both sides lost an untold number who were not fortunate enough to be here, but who on this earth could ever have foreseen the Holocaust?

And I did not realize that FDR was an anti-Semite for quite a few years, as was his wife, Eleanor. But she did try to help...her words are those of a patrician, as she and her husband were both aristocrats.

A lot of time was lost, and the self-hating Jews who owned the NYT were a big part of the problem...back page news hidden in a small blurb. Jews did come here from Europe in the early days of the war to sound the alarm, but people were probably afraid to speak put...Jew hate is something I grew up with, in an era where Jews were restricted, in my native Boston, from living in certain areas..and also there was a Jewish quota at the universities, and in jobs.

Jew hate is yet again rearing it's ugly head world-wide, even here, because of the cult of islam.

As long as there are Righteous Christians in the world, we are not alone. And I do not think that another Holocaust could happen, G-d forbid, because of their love and help. But I would not want to be in Eurabia now...they are allowing this to happen to them.

Here is more on the SS St. Louis.

G'nite, all.

507 NY Nana  Thu, May 22, 2008 10:53:38pm

re: #484 DesertSage

And I ♥ you like a son...and think you, my 3 sons and son in law would be very much alike if you were to get together. Oy! ;)

I am sorry, but I cut no space for what Hagee said.

His is despicable. And it seems that he speaks out of both sides of his mouth.

Got to go to sleep! G'nite, and stay way away from the fires in CA! You and Sgt. Bin Jammin had better be safe.

508 Dark_Falcon  Thu, May 22, 2008 10:57:27pm

Actually, I think Obama was being quite clever. He seemed to me to be offering a deal: lay off my preacher issue and I'll keep away from yours. It's not a good deal of course, and McCain should reject it.

509 Biff  Thu, May 22, 2008 11:36:34pm

TJ formed the US Navy in order to help defeat the mujahadeen who were blocking shipping channels in the Mediteranean and kidnapping Americans for ransom and white slavery. Furthermore, the Western maps of the era depicted Israel as the Holy Land, Terra Sancta, and portrayed its Biblical borders. The Holy Land's occupation by the Caliphate must have been a serious thorn in the side of the Christian west. Furthermore, the American Revolution occured 93 years after the Battle of Vienna (the Ottaman's second attack on the Austrian capital), and it's likely that Islamic conquest was treated as recent history at the time of the Founding Fathers.

510 sissyblue  Thu, May 22, 2008 11:44:42pm

I'm thinking that Hagee is probably being misquoted. He's actually a friend of Israel. I remember seeing Netanyahu speaking at his church once (on TV). He raises tons of money and support for Israel... It just doesn't sound like anything he'd say. He would more likely say something like 'even though the Holocaust was a great evil, God used it to bring Israel into being'... something like that.

511 Sharmuta  Fri, May 23, 2008 12:12:15am

re: #510 sissyblue

re: #154 Charles

Hagee was not misquoted or taken out of context. Here's the recording:

[Link: www.youtube.com...]

512 Psaturn  Fri, May 23, 2008 12:12:59am

Charles and etal

I think this is a very bad idea to throw Hagee and Parsley under the bus.

Why do I think it is a very bad idea?

Throwing Hagee and Parsley under the bus are also throwing thousands and thousands of voters that follow their teachings under the bus.

Without evangelical voters and support, McCain cannot win the Presidency. It is that simple.

I do not necessarily agree with everything Hagee and Parsley said and taught. That is why the Scriptures say to search the Scriptures to see if the teachings are supported by the Scriptures.

About the Rome whore comments, Hagee apologized and Bill Donoghue accepted the apology on behalf of the Roman Catholic Church.

Again, I repeat, without evangelical voters and support, McCain cannot win the Presidency. It is that simple.

Why do I say this?

The Catholic votes are traditionally split between Democrats and Republicans.

The Jewish votes are usually Democratic.

The black churches usually vote Democratic.

The white liberal churches vote Democratic.

The marxists, liberal atheists, seem to vote Democratic.

The gay voters vote Democratic.

The union members vote Democratic.

Small business people usually vote Republican.

Large companies' executives usually vote Republican. Apparently McCain has hurt them in the past so they do not seem to support him presently and are not giving him monetary support. They are giving to Hillary and Obama instead.

Those bitter people that cling to guns and Bibles that Obama was referring to were 'white Democrats' in the Midwest and Pennsyvania and the Apalachias.

So, you are left with conservatives who vote Republican. Usually they are Bible believing folks from the South and America's heartland. They listen to TBN broadcasts with Pat Robertson, John Hagee, Rod Parsley and several others. They are strongly zionists. In fact, Israel acknowledges that as a group, there is no group that consistently support Israel like the Christian Zionists.

Remember Ohio? Apparently Pastor Parsley's church involvement with voters' drive and encouraging voters to vote helped President Bush to get
Ohio and the delegates for the electoral college.

So, who else would vote Republican this year?

Conservative voters who are not affiliated with a religious movement are usually anti illegal immigration. McCain failed them when he tried to push what it amounts to be amnesty to present illegals.

So...I think this is a very bad step McCain took this time.

513 Slumbering Behemoth  Fri, May 23, 2008 12:28:44am

re: #511 Sharmuta

The more I hear that 'sermon', the more I am convinced he thinks that the depredations of the third reich were made so by God. Absolute moonbattery.

514 Sharmuta  Fri, May 23, 2008 12:35:43am

re: #513 Slumbering Behemoth

I'm surprised by the number taken in by this guy. "But, but, but he supports Israel!"

Yeah- so does vlamms belang.

515 Milk Toast Intolerant  Fri, May 23, 2008 12:39:42am

I don't know why Parsley and Hagee announced their support for McCain anyway, seeing as they're both very much the fire-and-brimstone types. Surely, they should have forseen the media and Obama using their past words to play the moral equivalence game in order to get the Rev. Wright stench off of Obama.

I don't know if God sent Hitler to murder the Jews or allowed him to do the same, but Hagee's comment about Hitler was very insensitive to the Jewish people, and if ever there was a group of people whose feelings should be respected even in the midst of all this political correctness, it would be the Jews'. However, had Hagee quoted that Jeremiah verse and cited examples like King Nebucchadnezzar being sent by God to destroy a good portion of the Israelites, I doubt many would call Hagee crazy, because it's right there in the OT in unencrypted text. The difference between then and now is the Bible has been written and the wounds that many Jews have from the Holocaust are still very fresh. It's hard to fathom what Hagee hoped to accomplish with that statement about Hitler.

Even with the ill advised comment about Hitler, I do not believe Hagee to be an anti-Semite. As I've said, I've watched dozens of his sermons years ago, and on numerous occasions, I heard him encourage Christians to pray for the state of Israel, to pray for the peace of Jerusalem. He knows Jews are being persecuted around the world and has done much to help bring them back to the state of Israel. The accusation that he's doing all this to fulfill the end time doomsday prophecies does not agree with his previous sermons in which he's stated that basically we are living on God's timetable, and He doesn't do what we want, when we want. Whatever is going to happen will happen regardless of what we do. For those reasons, I cannot believe for a second that he is anything but a staunch supporter of the Jewish people. He's unabashedly fire and brimstone and he knows he will be ridiculed for what he says, but he doesn't care what the world thinks of him. If actions speak louder than words, than his actions should qualify him as a supporter of Israel and the Jewish people. But he does suffer from some foot-in-mouth disease, though.

As for Parsley, I agree with most of what he said about Islam, except maybe for that one line. He doesn't has a racist bone in his body, unlike the Rev. Jeremiah Wright. His ministry has bought Sudanese Christian slaves from the Muslim slave traders and freed them afterwards. They also run food distribution programs in poverty stricken regions around the world. Basically, a good guy and far less controversial than Hagee.

Regardless, I see this story as advantageous to Obama's strategy to pull the wool over the eyes of the American public. Now, he can point the finger at McCain's campaign and sell it to the moral equivalent voters, of whom there are many.

516 Slumbering Behemoth  Fri, May 23, 2008 12:55:25am

re: #514 Sharmuta

The thing that really burns me about this the most, Sharm, is that any other salesman could use the same fisher/hunter analogy that Hagee applied to Hitler to describe Palestine, Iran, or any other "Hunter of the Israelites" as being "sent by God".

It is a style rhetoric that I find dangerous and deplorable.

/I am The Behemoth, and I DO NOT approve of this (Hagee's) message!

517 Sharmuta  Fri, May 23, 2008 1:09:05am

re: #516 Slumbering Behemoth

Absolutely! And, imo, it's a much more dangerous form of anti-Semitism than what we see from iran. At least iran is honest in what it's seeking, but hagee is hiding his intentions- but not good enough.

518 Milk Toast Intolerant  Fri, May 23, 2008 1:09:47am

re: #516 Slumbering Behemoth

The thing that really burns me about this the most, Sharm, is that any other salesman could use the same fisher/hunter analogy that Hagee applied to Hitler to describe Palestine, Iran, or any other "Hunter of the Israelites" as being "sent by God".

It is a style rhetoric that I find dangerous and deplorable.

/I am The Behemoth, and I DO NOT approve of this (Hagee's) message!

What Hitler did to the Jews took place in a time when they were scattered throughout the world and did not have a government or land of their own. They were incredibly weak. If the Palestinians, Iran, or any other "hunter of the Israelites" tried that today, no Jew will fall over and die. Just give them a piece of land, let them form their own government, and we've witnessed how fast they've grown, and quite prosperous, even.

519 sissyblue  Fri, May 23, 2008 1:14:35am

I watched the video and it seems to be quite a bit more long and detailed, with scriptures for emphasis. I didn't hear him say 'God sent Adolf Hitler to help Jews reach the promised land'. I think it's the conclusion he was letting the hearer draw, based on the Scriptures and the facts on the ground. Is there any reason God would want his 'chosen people' back in their land? Is there any reason they wouldn't want to go? Just curious. At any rate, the land has certainly been blessed by their prescence.

520 Slumbering Behemoth  Fri, May 23, 2008 1:22:54am

re: #517 Sharmuta

Oh, he'll likely apologize (read: backpedal) from this statement as he did from his statement about the catholic church, but as I said before: At some point a grown adult must be held accountable for their choice of words; good, bad, or ugly. To say otherwise would be to foolishly apply the ignorance of childhood upon someone who presumes to lead grown men and women.

521 Sharmuta  Fri, May 23, 2008 1:46:21am

re: #519 sissyblue

So- the Holocaust wasn't so bad because hitler was sent by God to make the Jews go back to the Promised Land....that doesn't strike you as possibly offensive to people? It doesn't smack of Holocaust revisionism to you?

522 Slumbering Behemoth  Fri, May 23, 2008 2:11:58am

re: #517 Sharmuta

As a P.S.: It strikes me as a form of "soft antisemitism", a statement with a convenient escape hatch.

As in "No, I didn't mean to say you brought this upon yourselves, just that, you know, there are biblical verses that say God will set "hunters" upon the Jews, and, well Hitler may have been one of these "hunters" sent by God, you know. Shucks, why are y'all holding me accountable for my words*, like I'm some kinda adult or something"?

*such practice may have fallen out of popular favor during the Clinton presidency, but as far as I am concerned, I will still hold grown adults accountable for what they say.

523 Sharmuta  Fri, May 23, 2008 2:23:10am

re: #522 Slumbering Behemoth

Absolutely. Seems the new anti-Semites come in the form of "friends", who on one hand claim support for Israel, while on the other engage in the same old Jew hate we've always seen. Disgusting.

524 Slumbering Behemoth  Fri, May 23, 2008 2:41:59am

re: #523 Sharmuta

Agreed, agreed, and agreed. And certainly disgusting.

Aside from that, I think we may be creating our very own pocket echo chamber. I submit that we squash it with a little "First Gen" metal.

525 Sharmuta  Fri, May 23, 2008 2:50:15am

re: #524 Slumbering Behemoth

We might be echoing each other's sentiments right now, but I bet the second our back is turned, someone will come in here parroting the hagee line.

Thanks for the tunes!

526 Slumbering Behemoth  Fri, May 23, 2008 3:13:51am

re: #525 Sharmuta

It is a debatable point, but some say that that song was inspired by an altercation between the fellers from Sabbath and a group of brit skin-heads.

We might be echoing each other's sentiments right now, but I bet the second our back is turned, someone will come in here parroting the hagee line.

To be sure; as fools to folly, as dogs to vomit. What is this week's tally for nazi apologia?

527 Sharmuta  Fri, May 23, 2008 3:26:40am

re: #526 Slumbering Behemoth

To be sure; as fools to folly, as dogs to vomit. What is this week's tally for nazi apologia?

Only Stinky knows for sure.

528 bill-tb  Fri, May 23, 2008 4:07:42am

Hey, no big deal, I tossed McAMNESTY under the bus long ago.

529 ethanxxx  Fri, May 23, 2008 5:38:36am

I don't have a problem with McCain tossing Hagee back down the hole, but I was surprised this morning to discover that he did the same to Parsley. In fact, I'm kinda' pissed-off. Hagee's comments were antisemitic and based on nothing but his own warped opinion. Parsley's comments, except maybe the "America was created to destroy Islam" statement, are based on historical fact. Islam is dangerously evil and has no place in this country.

CAIR Calls for McCain to renounce Parsley.

530 capital L  Fri, May 23, 2008 5:44:41am

I don't get all the outrage-- it seems to me that if you interpret the bible literally you can't escape the conclusions Hagee draws.

Of course I don't think the two testaments are even describing the same religion, much less that either of the collected writings are particularly useful (exceptions: 1)the interesting, albeit fairly typical, mythic/historical anecdotes in the old testament; 2) the 10 commandments; 3) the hokey-folky "love your neighbor" parables), so pppbbbbbbbbtttt.

531 Nat-X  Fri, May 23, 2008 6:06:30am

Don't worry folks. Sen. McCain will team up with the dems to get hate-speech legislation passed. That way, preachers like Parsley and Hagee will be thrown in jail. Preachers like Wright (i.e. black) will be exempted at McCains urging in a show of bipartisanship and "coming together."

McCain isn't going to win. I'm writing in my own name, and so is my wife. Yeah! Two votes for Nat-X!

532 Nat-X  Fri, May 23, 2008 6:13:21am

re: #529 ethanxxx

Hagee's comments were antisemitic and based on nothing but his own warped opinion.

The Bible foretold the creation of Israel. Please tell me how the State of Israel would have come about had it not been for Hilter and WWII?

Parsley is on the money.

533 ibmkeyboard  Fri, May 23, 2008 6:13:34am

Stupid, Stupid.

Reject the things he says,
not the man.

Millions of people worship the God that man walks on.

534 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, May 23, 2008 6:27:27am
535 sabra412  Fri, May 23, 2008 6:43:35am

As a Jew I do not find his comments offensive at all. When read in context I do not find anything anti jewish in his words.

When he says
They are physically alive but they're not spiritually alive. Now how is God going to cause the Jewish people to come spiritually alive

I think this is absolutely true. Not offended by it.


A larger excerpt is below...

HAGEE: "Again he said unto me “Prophesy unto these bones, and say unto them, ‘O you dry bones, hear the word of the Lord!' And he spoke to them and they stood and they became an exceeding great army - meaning they physically came to life.

"Now how is God going to bring them back to the land? The answer is fishers and hunters. The answer is given in Jeremiah 16, verse 15 and following.

"God says in Jeremiah 16 - 'Behold I will bring them the Jewish people again unto their land that I gave unto their fathers' - that would be Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - 'behold I will send for many fishers and after will I send for many hunters. And they the hunters shall hunt them' - that will be the Jews - 'from every mountain and from every hill and from out of the holes of the rocks.'

"If that doesn't describe what Hitler did in the Holocaust, you can't see that.

"So think about this - I will send fishers and I will send hunters. A fisher is someone who entices you with a bait. How many of you know who Theodore Herzl was? How many of you don't have a clue who he was? Whooo. Sweet God! Theodore Herzl is the father of Zionism. He was a Jew that at the turn of the 19th century said, 'This land is our land, God wants us to live there.' So he went to the Jews of Europe and said, 'I want you to come and join me in the land of Israel.'

"So few went, Herzl went into depression. Those who came founded Israel; those who did not went through the hell of the Holocaust.

"Then God sent a hunter. A hunter is someone who comes with a gun and he forces you. Hitler was a hunter. And the Bible says - Jeremiah righty? - 'They shall hunt them from every mountain and from every hill and out of the holes of the rocks,' meaning: there's no place to hide. And that will be offensive to some people. Well, dear heart, be offended: I didn't write it. Jeremiah wrote it. It was the truth and it is the truth.

"How did it happen? Because God allowed it to happen. Why did it happen? Because God said, 'my top priority for the Jewish people is to get them to come back to the land of Israel.' Today Israel is back in the land and they are at Ezekiel 37 and 8. They are physically alive but they're not spiritually alive. Now how is God going to cause the Jewish people to come spiritually alive and say, 'the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, He is God'?"

536 CLLRusso  Fri, May 23, 2008 6:49:29am

re: #532 Nat-X

The Bible foretold the creation of Israel. Please tell me how the State of Israel would have come about had it not been for Hitler and WWII?

Parsley is on the money.

Pastor Hagee is anything but anti-Semitic. I read what was meant by his past statement and it is that Hitler's actions were a catalyst for the formation of the State of Israel. He did not agree with those horrible actions!

I am really sick of the deliberate misinterpretation of Christian evangelicals by both liberals and orthodox Jews. Israel has no greater friends. I traveled to Israel in March with 63 of them, not knowing what to expect, and can say these are loving, gracious people that give their loyalty and their dollars to Israel and the preservation of the State and Judaism.

Don't know a thing about Parsley.

McCain should be ashamed of himself. He needs to get his own message in order and stop the knee jerk reactions to liberal criticism. They are trying to make a bigger deal of Hagee to counter their Rev. Wright problem. Of course the media plays right along.

If there was anyone else to vote for........ . But there is not.

537 Roger  Fri, May 23, 2008 6:59:04am

re: #535 sabra412

When he says
They are physically alive but they're not spiritually alive. Now how is God going to cause the Jewish people to come spiritually alive

I think this is absolutely true. Not offended by it.

Yes and also Hagee knows Romans 11 and particularly '30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.'

The reason Christians believe the Bible is because of its honesty concerning the characters and Jewish people being shown as imperfect compared to any other source of spirituality. When the Hagee types are talking about the disobedience of the people he is not referring to it in an antisemitic way but rather applying it as a personnel lesson to whoever listens.

538 Nat-X  Fri, May 23, 2008 7:00:16am

re: #521 Sharmuta

So- the Holocaust wasn't so bad because hitler was sent by God to make the Jews go back to the Promised Land....that doesn't strike you as possibly offensive to people? It doesn't smack of Holocaust revisionism to you?

If anything it kinda points to the god of the Bible being sadistic. I hope our "loving God" doesn't get his jollies by wiping out 6 million of his "chosen people" in hellish fashion, but how else would the modern state of Israel have come into being without Hitler and WWII? The truth is it would not have. So if you try to explain the Bible and its wacky prophecies, that is the logical conclusion one must draw. God used Hilter to establish Israel and get the ball rolling on the "End Times." And if you don't have a "personal relationship" with Jesus Christ, you're going to hell, even if you're one of God's chosen people. Oh, and if you're a child rapist/murderer and you accept Jesus Christ as your "Lord and personal savior" minutes prior to your execution, you get to go straight to heaven with no punishment for your horrendous deeds, which means that God is not a justGod. And homos: God loves you, but you must be stoned to death...sorry... because I haven't come to replace the law...

Oh, but have faith like a child. Don't try to understand it. It's too complicated for your little mind. Just trust that it's true.

Sounds like same logic used by global warming alarmists.

Back on topic: McCain is a jerk-off.

539 Richard Romano  Fri, May 23, 2008 7:00:19am

re: #536 CLLRusso

Pastor Hagee is anything but anti-Semitic

The man has raised millions of dollars for Israel -- he's a wonky theologian who says things that are clearly unbiblical, but goodness me, he is a humanitarian giant when it comes to the great things he's done for Israelis.

I couldn't believe how some people on this thread would place Coulter on par with other clear anti-Semites from Kos and other kooks. Her 'perfected' statement has to do with spiritual matters, not racial -- she is a staunch supporter of Israel.

540 vagabond trader  Fri, May 23, 2008 7:02:29am

Jeesh, always with the Jew obsession. Can't we just eat our potato pancakes?

541 Nat-X  Fri, May 23, 2008 7:03:06am

re: #536 CLLRusso


I agree with you. Israel has no greater friend than evangelical christians.

542 Noam Chumpski  Fri, May 23, 2008 7:07:09am

The media is just oh, so desperate to try to deflect that Wright controversy and this is like watching a wounded animal run in circles.

543 Ojoe  Fri, May 23, 2008 7:11:32am

Good Morning.

Wilson towercam socked in (fog)

Good morning,

Eat all you want™ for breakfast.

544 opinionated  Fri, May 23, 2008 7:15:13am

People who really really believe in God, Fundamentalist Christians, Orthodox Jews, et al, do believe that God's hand is in everything.

Among themselves they sound reasonable but it doesn't translate to the outside world.

If Hagee says that Hitler led to Israel he also believes that WW I and the Civil War and the founding of the US and everything else was God's will leading to the rebirth of Israel.

How is McCain or anyone else surprised with what he said?

545 CowardKerry  Fri, May 23, 2008 7:16:42am

Johnny is so PC.

546 opinionated  Fri, May 23, 2008 7:24:41am

re: #539 Richard Romano

I couldn't believe how some people on this thread would place Coulter on par with other clear anti-Semites from Kos and other kooks. Her 'perfected' statement has to do with spiritual matters, not racial -- she is a staunch supporter of Israel.

Coulter- and this is likely only post 9/11- is pro Israel only in the sense of the enemy (Israel) of my enemy (Islam) is my friend.

She had previously admitted sympathy to the "Palestinian" position.

She should in no way be listed in the "pro Israel" camp.

547 opinionated  Fri, May 23, 2008 7:31:56am

Every Republican candidate runs in a three way race.

He must deal with the Democrat opponent and with the Media opponent.

By disavowing the pastors' endorsement he attempt to insulate himself against a Media attack - and defense of Obama's real despicable associations- every time these pastors open their mouth.

Is it honorable of McCain? Maybe not. But it is a political necessity.

What we need to ask ourselves is whether we prefer a candidate who always makes us proud crashing to defeat resulting in a President Obama.

548 petero  Fri, May 23, 2008 7:36:00am

re: #541 Nat-X

I agree with you. Israel has no greater friend than evangelical christians.

Lets be honest. The common interests shared by Evangelicals and Jews over Israel is a marriage of convenience. About the only thing they share an interest in is Jewish sovereignty over Israel, and even that, is only shared because it is a precondition for the Evangelicals end game, which is the messianic conversion of all Jews when the Messiah returns.

Israel and Jews more generally have long debated this "marriage" and while it serves both parties interests at this time, one should not confuse this with the "greatest friendship". It is, rather, a fortuitous friendship.

549 Roger  Fri, May 23, 2008 7:36:43am

re: #538 Nat-X

Well that was a bunch of garbled blech.

Now Judaism/Christianity show a way to life and exemplify choice while, let's see, what does atheism bring to the table? Certain death/hell for all.

550 Junior  Fri, May 23, 2008 7:38:25am

After reading these comments, I'm just flabbergasted at the complete ignorance of some of you. Claiming to know how God operates? Claiming that all things He will do will be "good" in the eyes of man? Who the heck are you to claim to know the things of God?

God has used, liars, wussies, degenerates, murderers, prostitutes, and various evil people throughout all of history to bring about his Will. Can you not accept this fact? Well, it really doesn't matter if you can or not.

I'm sick and tired of people thinking God is this little huggable teddy bear that we all can just look at and say "awww.. isn't he cute?". Screw that.

God is a ferocious lion who will eat the face of his enemies and at times, discipline harshly those he loves the most. Just because you cannot fathom something taking place for the Will of God doesn' t mean it didn't.

Did he not instruct the Jews to wipe out whole peoples? (what we would call today, genocide). Yet they did not do it. Yes, the God Almighty instructed GENOCIDE! On numerous occasions! How can this be?!?!?!

He is a mysterious God - a jealous God - a fierce and Just God - though through our human eyes we can see it all as mean, petty, unjust.

Humble yourselves people! The Lord God is above all and will always be! You and your thoughts and opinions are but a speck in all of time!

551 Nat-X  Fri, May 23, 2008 7:38:48am

re: #88 joecitizen

welcome to obamanation then...leave your money and safety in His hands..

If you keep rewarding bad behavior, you'll keep getting bad behavior. I want to punish the Republican Party. America deserves some natural consequences in the form of Obama/Hillary in the White House, Maxine Waters in the Majority Whip chair, and Al Frankin as the Senate Majority Leader. God help us, though.

552 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, May 23, 2008 7:40:24am
553 Milk Toast Intolerant  Fri, May 23, 2008 7:42:46am

re: #548 petero

Lets be honest. The common interests shared by Evangelicals and Jews over Israel is a marriage of convenience. About the only thing they share an interest in is Jewish sovereignty over Israel, and even that, is only shared because it is a precondition for the Evangelicals end game, which is the messianic conversion of all Jews when the Messiah returns.

Israel and Jews more generally have long debated this "marriage" and while it serves both parties interests at this time, one should not confuse this with the "greatest friendship". It is, rather, a fortuitous friendship.

Very unfair statement and patently untrue. Consider for a second that millions of Christians are well educated and have grasped a deep understanding of the monumental Jewish contributions to humanity, and as a result are appreciative of their spiritual siblings. Not the least of which is their Christian faith, which also came from the tribe of Judah.

554 Ilan Toren  Fri, May 23, 2008 7:56:21am

Jews believe that there is only one authority in the universe and that all of history is dependent on that authority. We can not understand the whys or the hows, but we are instructed to "do good" and to stay far from evil and we have been given the tools to make those decisions, namely the Torah and the prophets. So while I don't like the wording that Hagee used he didn't say anything earth shattering either. Pharoh was punished for oppressing Bnai Israel even though Abraham was told that we would be enslaved. He didn't have to choose to take on the job nor did he have to do it so cruelly.

Germany could have been the place that gave Jews rights and where they flourished, the place where Einstein came from. Instead Hitler took it down a very different path. We have to say that it was G-d's plan, even though we will never understand why. It could have been different, but sometimes people act evilly (more often than can be imagined).

555 nikis-knight  Fri, May 23, 2008 7:57:09am
McCain rejected the months-old endorsement of Texas preacher John Hagee after an audio recording surfaced in which the preacher said God sent Adolf Hitler to help Jews reach the promised land. McCain called the comment “crazy and unacceptable.”

Part of the despicable-ness of this statement is that it implies Christians love Israel in spite of the Jews, rather than because of them.
Who would be willing to pay millions of deaths to see Israel formed? I've never heard of Hagee before the McCain stuff in the last few months, but he seems like an anti-semitic apocalyptic nut from that comment.

Maybe he could clarify it if he had said instead that God uses the evil men do to bring about good, but if the quote is accurate, I'm infuriated.

556 rorschach  Fri, May 23, 2008 8:03:40am
...an Ohio preacher who has sharply criticized Islam and called the religion inherently violent


islam violent? How could he possibly come to that conclusion?


/Equating a Hitler sympathizer with a realist illustrates McCain's utterly confused view of the world.

557 Roger  Fri, May 23, 2008 8:03:49am

re: #555 nikis-knight

He already said what you said in your last paragraph.

Notice what is attributed is not an actual quote but an antagonist's spin; an Obama supporter spin.

558 Opinionated  Fri, May 23, 2008 8:04:50am

re: #555 nikis-knight

said God sent Adolf Hitler to help Jews reach the promised land.

Whether one gets infuriated depends on how you read what Hagee actually said.

If you read it as Hitler "helped" the Jews, it sounds much more terrible then if your read it that Hitler's action "forced" the Jews to return to Israel.

Hagee never used the word "helped".

559 captainzot  Fri, May 23, 2008 8:05:03am

re: #235 LeePro

I'm sure if you aquaint yourself with the Protestant Reformation then you will see exactly which Roman Catholic doctrines protestants consider false. And it's not a small number. But wait, before you feel some sort of persecution from this, remember that protestant beliefs (and I'm talking about orthodox, confessional protestantism) were explicitly anathematized at the council of Trent. In turn, protestants believe (again confessional ones) that the Roman Catholic church anathematized the Gospel at that council.

Btw... so some don't have to look it up, anathematized means that anyone who teaches/believes such things should be damned.

That is the Roman Catholic church's official position to this day. There are profound differences between RC and Prot theology. But we're able to work and play together just fine in our great country because of shared values. We've just gotten so theologically illiterate that people forget.

560 Richard Romano  Fri, May 23, 2008 8:06:23am

re: #546 opinionated

She should in no way be listed in the "pro Israel" camp.

This is a ridiculous assertion -- read her books and her columns; she was just on Dennis Prager's show showing her support for Israel. Is Prager also a phony supporter of Israel?

561 Junior  Fri, May 23, 2008 8:08:30am

re: #555 nikis-knight

OK - serious question here:
So then if someone told you that God sent the Jews to be enslaved, just so he could prove to them 400 years later of His power in the Exodus to bring His people back to Him, I assume you would call them anti-semetic as well; yes?

Not knowing Hagee all that well, when I read his comment I see it as no different than any other story of redemption in the Old Testament. God swallowed entire tribes with the earth just because one person lied for petesake!

Your statement is just pure ignorance and rather simple minded; to call someone anti-semetic for an opinion on things that have occurred over and over again throughout history; just as the Bible tells them.

Who cares about Hagee - I'm speaking generally. How would you know the things of God? Can you truly grasp them?

562 Nat-X  Fri, May 23, 2008 8:09:11am

re: #549 Roger

Well that was a bunch of garbled blech.

Now Judaism/Christianity show a way to life and exemplify choice while, let's see, what does atheism bring to the table? Certain death/hell for all.

I'm not an atheist or even an agnostic. I was raised Southern Baptist and have attended a Calvary Chapel (which is pretty evangelical) for the past 10 years. Heck, I even played electric guitar in the praise band for a couple years. But if you are intellectually curious, these questions and doubts will certainly arise, unless you're a Kool-Aid drinker.

Are you saying all non-practitioners of Judaism/Christianity are all going to hell? According to Christian doctrine, Jews, too, will go to hell unless they accept Jesus. Even within Christianity, there are myriad divisions regarding how and when one is saved, and for how long. Jesus prayed for the unity of the church as one of his last acts on Earth, yet the Bible is chock full of divisive things.

563 Sharmuta  Fri, May 23, 2008 8:09:32am

re: #555 nikis-knight

Charles linked the clip in #154 and Mich-again quoted it in #176.

564 Opinionated  Fri, May 23, 2008 8:11:11am

re: #560 Richard Romano

Educate me. Even if she has had a recent conversion.

I personally heard her on Bill Mahar's old ABC show, prior to 9/11, express a pro 'Palestinian' position.

Cite for me specific things she has written that manifest a pro-Israel, rather then an anti Islam/Arab, opinion.

Hey, it's possible she's changed and I would congratulate her and welcome her to the side of the angels.

565 Sharmuta  Fri, May 23, 2008 8:11:31am

re: #561 Junior

How would you know the things of God? Can you truly grasp them?

How does hagee know?!

566 Junior  Fri, May 23, 2008 8:15:38am

re: #565 Sharmuta

How does hagee know?!

I never claimed Hagee did know the things of God. But to call someone anti-semetic; when by that same logic you could call the writer of Exodus (Moses to many) anti-semetic as well! Heck, you could call God anti-semetic by that logic! God purposefully enslaved his own people just to show them his power hundreds of years later for the purposes of bringing them back to relationship with him! How anti-semetic!

567 lewisinnyc  Fri, May 23, 2008 8:22:48am

If "nobody thinks McCain believes that stuff" why does McCain need to "deal with Hagee"? Clearly, Hagee was not speaking for McCain.

568 nikis-knight  Fri, May 23, 2008 8:27:10am

re: #557 Roger

re: #558 Opinionated

Okay, thanks. I haven't had the chance to check further or read this thread, that was just my initial reaction (and I wanted to go on record as supporting Israel because the Jewish people there are, by and large, good people and God's people, not because of end-times theories.)

569 captainzot  Fri, May 23, 2008 8:29:03am

re: #312 joecitizen

Talk about historical revisionism. Breathtaking.

570 Sharmuta  Fri, May 23, 2008 8:30:55am

Christian Zionist leader Hagee depicts Jews as Christ killers

John Hagee, the megachurch pastor who is the current face of Christian Zionism in the United States, depicted Jews as Christ killers in a recent interview. Hagee also stated that Muslims have a "mandate" to kill Christians and Jews and that God caused Hurricane Katrina to destroy New Orleans to prevent a scheduled gay parade.

I think there's a difference between "pro-Israel" and being for the Jewish people. He's an Armageddonist. He wants war with iran to bring the Second Coming:

“The United States must join Israel in a pre-emptive military strike against Iran to fulfill God's plan for both Israel and the West... a biblically prophesied end-time confrontation with Iran, which will lead to the Rapture, Tribulation [...] and [the] Second Coming of Christ." .

And you want to scold me on my understanding of the Bible? Frankly- I think this guy is using the Bible to justify his brand of anti-Semitism. This guy thinks he knows God's will, and it's his job to help bring it about. Think about it- that's whack.

571 Sharmuta  Fri, May 23, 2008 8:34:42am

re: #570 Sharmuta

Sorry- this was a response to Junior at #566.

572 Shr_Nfr  Fri, May 23, 2008 8:39:08am

Not particularly relevant. I am everybody's rank heretic in that I find the crock of crap needle fairly pinned when I examine any of the religions very carefully. That said, if you adhere to a faith and it brings meaning to your life and it only effects those around you in a positive manner, who am I to argue? A bit over a week ago, I was on the soup kitchen squad in New Orleans handing out desert where the squad was run out of a Roman Catholic Church, there were two Mormon missionaries on the line slinging hot dogs and the faith of the other folks probably varied all over the map. Its what you do with your religion that really matters. If your religion states that you are to violently take over the world and kill various people, I am opposed to it. In this context I am opposed to most extreme variations of most faiths in existence.

Foxe was written at a time of political stress during the 16th century when both politics and religion were quite intertwined in Europe. Its relevance is next to zero at the present moment. [And yes, I have read it in the original. My copy is the 3 vol. folio from the 1640s, but that is quite close to the first edition.]

573 Shr_Nfr  Fri, May 23, 2008 8:43:53am

Btw, I have not noted any violent demonstrations complete with a rage boy over this: [Link: www.haaretz.com...]

I disagree with it, but that is no reason to do the rage boy act.

574 Junior  Fri, May 23, 2008 8:48:47am

re: #570 Sharmuta

Again, I was not speaking about Hagee directly, only about this topic and calling him anti-semetic. What he has said before was not in the equation I was referring to.

And I wasn't "scolding" you on your understanding of the Bible; but trying to compare calling Hagee anti-semitic for this specific view vs. what has happened throughout all of time sometimes by the hand of God. Far be it from me to judge you.

Fact is God has used the most evil people and actions to bring about his purpose. Not that he intended it to be that way; but it only proves to the Evil One that God is the Almighty because no matter how evil circumstances can and will be, God will use them to bring about his victory.

Satan continues to swim upstream. It's a losing battle.

575 legion  Fri, May 23, 2008 8:49:18am

re: #552 buzzsawmonkey

Obama does the Wright thing,
And so, to clear his name
The media turn on McCain
Saying he's Parsley to blame.

You're a poet, and don't even know it!

576 Junior  Fri, May 23, 2008 8:54:38am

re: #572 Shr_Nfr

I am everybody's rank heretic in that I find the crock of crap needle fairly pinned when I examine any of the religions very carefully.

My advice is to keep searching. I mean truly search with a heart that really wants to find something. Not merely "examining" with your preconceived notions of "crock of crap" because then you'll only find a "crock of crap". In summary: You'll always find what you are looking for.

Knock and the door shall be opened.

577 DownRightMeanAmerican  Fri, May 23, 2008 8:58:20am

re: #221 jaunte

Hagee on Hurricane Katrina:

I believe that New Orleans had a level of sin that was offensive to God, and they are--were recipients of the judgment of God for that. .......

As a layperson it drives my insane when educated pastors spew this own agenda BS crap, while hiding behind God.

Hagee is suggesting that because my airplane landed safely and the other did not, that one must have had the “worst sinners” on board, nowhere does the Bible teach that, matter of fact the Bible teaches against that idea.

Hagee thinks God is punishing New Orleans, yet his church I know for a fact is at least half filled with adulterers and God somehow looks the other way, cause their sin doesn’t rise to the same level, I would ask Hagee why, most gays don’t profess to follow God, you and yours does, so wouldn’t God hold you to the higher standard, first?

This rhetoric from Christian pastors only exposes their lack of understanding and of course makes one question what else they are getting wrong.

Hagee belongs under the bus, its God judgement for him being an asshat and not comprehending Luke 13.

578 nikis-knight  Fri, May 23, 2008 9:02:59am

re: #561 Junior

OK - serious question here:
So then if someone told you that God sent the Jews to be enslaved, just so he could prove to them 400 years later of His power in the Exodus to bring His people back to Him, I assume you would call them anti-semetic as well; yes?

Not knowing Hagee all that well, when I read his comment I see it as no different than any other story of redemption in the Old Testament. God swallowed entire tribes with the earth just because one person lied for petesake!

Your statement is just pure ignorance and rather simple minded; to call someone anti-semetic for an opinion on things that have occurred over and over again throughout history; just as the Bible tells them.

Who cares about Hagee - I'm speaking generally. How would you know the things of God? Can you truly grasp them?


Are they a prophet? I know God used ancient kingdoms to punish the Jews, but to pronounce that current events are the same is hubris unless one is another prophet.

579 wolfie  Fri, May 23, 2008 9:07:31am

re: #521 Sharmuta

Just a dead-thread useless comment here about the misuse of the word revisionism. Technically it is a neutral term designating a revision of the generally accepted view of what happened in the past. For example, it was generally held for quite some time that Columbus was the first European to set foot in the Western Hemisphere. New evidence (both documentary and archaeological) has convinced 99% of historians that the Vikings were here long before Columbus. The process of changing the standard view was revision, and those promoting the change were revisionists.

That is, I admit, a mere technicality. The term in common parlance (which is what we use here, I hope!) is not neutral. It connotes a failure to accept well-documented and well-substantiated views in favor of (generally flimsy) views that accord more with one's own ideology, political opinions, philosophy, or craving for attention. But even in this sense it has to do with disputes over what actually happened. To the extent that it deals with whys at all, it is strictly confined to causation that can be substantiated by accepted research methods.

If I were to say that slavery was not a major cause of the Civil War, my view would be revisionist. If I were to say that the death toll at Cold Harbor has been over-estimated tenfold, I would be revisionist. But if I say God willed (or allowed....whatever) the Civil War to occur, I am not a revisionist. I am making a theological interpretation of accepted history, not denying or falsifying what actually happened. (My statement falls outside the field of history altogether.)

Those who deny that the Holocaust took place, those who say that far fewer than 6 million died, those who say that the war caused the Holocaust, etc. are making revisionist historical propositions, ones that happen to be absurdly contrary to the evidence, as you well know.
To say that the Holocaust occurred under the providence of God, by the whim of Allah, or by inscrutable forces is not "Holocaust revisionism."

580 Sharmuta  Fri, May 23, 2008 9:10:03am

re: #574 Junior

Again, I was not speaking about Hagee directly, only about this topic and calling him anti-semetic. What he has said before was not in the equation I was referring to.

Sorry- I thought the topic was what hagee has said before. Up thread people asked me to give them some fact checking. Well- this is what he's said in the past, and based on past and recent comments, yeah- I question his so called love of Israel. That's the point in calling him anti-Semetic- there's a trail of words.

I'm not sure which "equation" you're working on... Only God knows God's will- you really want to argue that point? Or....do you think I'm trying to argue the Bible is anti-Semitic because hagee uses it to justify his anti-Semitism? Because he's the one using the Bible for anti-Semitism, not me.

581 Junior  Fri, May 23, 2008 9:10:16am

re: #577 DownRightMeanAmerican

Well - I would have to agree and disagree, to an extent with this post.

Hagee professing to know why Katrina happened is not that valid to me - but leaving Hagee out if it - completely dismissing that is why it happened is also not valid. God destroyed many cities throughout history for moral filth - why would that not happen today? Again, not saying what Hagee is saying is true, but I also wouldn't completely dismiss it (and this is not based on his comments at all, but through historical evidence). I would never claim to limit what God can or should do.

You are correct in your comment regarding "worse" sinners vs. those who may be in his church. In fact, Scripture tells us that it is better for someone to never know the Truth to continue in sin rather than someone who knows the Truth to continue in sin. The standard is much higher for those who have the knowledge of Truth. Like a 2-year-old child who is completely ignorant of what lying really is vs. a 5-year-old one who knows exactly what they are doing.

582 Milk Toast Intolerant  Fri, May 23, 2008 9:21:36am

Another reason why I don't believe Hagee is anti-Semitic: one of the things he often preaches about is that the Nation of Israel is the apple of God's eye, and has cited examples of divine judgment against those throughout history who touched the apple of His eye. He has also preached about the covenant God made with Abraham. One of the part of that covenant was that God would bless those who blesses Israel and He would curse those who curses Israel. In other words, God's hand would be against those who would try to harm Israel in any way. Hagee truly believes this as I've heard him preached it a number of times. Now, to suggest that he is anti-Semitic or has some ulterior motives for helping bring the Jews back to the land of Israel contradicts what he often preaches. That implies that he's trying to push the Jews into the belly of the beast (making them easier targets for the Islamic terrorists) just so he could use them as a stepping stone to usher in the end times. This further implies that he wants to see many Jews murdered during the end times. That just makes no sense. He might as well ask God to judge him for wanting to harm Israel.

On the other hand, if Hagee doesn't really believe in what he preaches, then why has he spent so much money and resources to help bring Jews from the four corners of the earth back to Israel, since he doesn't believe in the Abrahamaic covenant in the first place? He must be pretty smart to try to trick God. He does say some stupid things from time to time, like the Katrina comment, for example, but I don't believe he's anti-Semitic.

583 wolfie  Fri, May 23, 2008 9:23:36am

re: #578 nikis-knight

Are they a prophet? I know God used ancient kingdoms to punish the Jews, but to pronounce that current events are the same is hubris unless one is another prophet.

I probably wouldn't have put it that way. I would have taken a long paragraph of babble to get half as far.
Well said!

584 Sharmuta  Fri, May 23, 2008 9:30:33am

re: #582 Milk Toast Intolerant

if Hagee doesn't really believe in what he preaches, then why has he spent so much money and resources to help bring Jews from the four corners of the earth back to Israel

I wonder..... :

"The United States must join Israel in a pre-emptive military strike against Iran to fulfill God's plan for both Israel and the West... a biblically prophesied end-time confrontation with Iran, which will lead to the Rapture, Tribulation [...] and [the] Second Coming of Christ."

Uh- maybe he thinks he can help bring about the Second Coming so Jesus will deal with the Jews....

585 Milk Toast Intolerant  Fri, May 23, 2008 9:34:41am

re: #584 Sharmuta

"The United States must join Israel in a pre-emptive military strike against Iran to fulfill God's plan for both Israel and the West... a biblically prophesied end-time confrontation with Iran, which will lead to the Rapture, Tribulation [...] and [the] Second Coming of Christ."

Can you cite your source for this quote? Sounds like a selling point for one of his books. I doubt he's arrogant enough to think that he can bring in the second coming of anything.

586 Sharmuta  Fri, May 23, 2008 9:37:41am

re: #585 Milk Toast Intolerant

But On July 19, 2006, at a CUFI's Washington DC inaugural event, with GOP Party head Ken Mehlman and US GOP Senators Sam Brownback, Rick Santorum, Kay Bailey-Hutchinson and John Cornyn in attendance ( President George W. Bush sent recorded greetings to the event ) , Pastor John Hagee declared :

"The United States must join Israel in a pre-emptive military strike against Iran to fulfill God's plan for both Israel and the West... a biblically prophesied end-time confrontation with Iran, which will lead to the Rapture, Tribulation [...] and [the] Second Coming of Christ."

587 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, May 23, 2008 9:37:59am
588 Milk Toast Intolerant  Fri, May 23, 2008 9:39:21am

re: #586 Sharmuta

But On July 19, 2006, at a CUFI's Washington DC inaugural event, with GOP Party head Ken Mehlman and US GOP Senators Sam Brownback, Rick Santorum, Kay Bailey-Hutchinson and John Cornyn in attendance ( President George W. Bush sent recorded greetings to the event ) , Pastor John Hagee declared :

"The United States must join Israel in a pre-emptive military strike against Iran to fulfill God's plan for both Israel and the West... a biblically prophesied end-time confrontation with Iran, which will lead to the Rapture, Tribulation [...] and [the] Second Coming of Christ."

Yes, but where did you get that quote? A website url? I notice there's some parts missing in that quote.

589 sissyblue  Fri, May 23, 2008 9:40:59am

#570, quoting the article "John Hagee, the megachurch pastor who is the current face of Christian Zionism in the United States, depicted Jews as Christ killers in a recent interview. Hagee also stated that Muslims have a "mandate" to kill Christians and Jews and that God caused Hurricane Katrina to destroy New Orleans to prevent a scheduled gay parade."

FYI, the only place "Christ Killers" appears in the article is where the author uses it. It's not found in Hagee's wording. Again, Hagee quotes scriptures. The author draws the conclusion. Hagee is well aware that Jesus + disciples were all Jewish.

590 Psaturn  Fri, May 23, 2008 9:58:57am

OK, let's be honest. I do NOT hold the premillenial view and the rapture theology that quite a few preachers espouse. And yet I am considered an evangelical.

I personally know many people in my circle that do not hold the premillenialist theology and the rapture theology and eschatology.

In fact, there is a term we call it jokingly, calling ourselves panmillenialists...everything pans out at the end.

The interesting aspect is the theology of Messianic Judaism. Since being Jews themselves, of course they would have a direct interest in their part of said theology. I have impression that most of them have similar views that I have.

re: #548 petero

Lets be honest. The common interests shared by Evangelicals and Jews over Israel is a marriage of convenience. About the only thing they share an interest in is Jewish sovereignty over Israel, and even that, is only shared because it is a precondition for the Evangelicals end game, which is the messianic conversion of all Jews when the Messiah returns.

Israel and Jews more generally have long debated this "marriage" and while it serves both parties interests at this time, one should not confuse this with the "greatest friendship". It is, rather, a fortuitous friendship.

591 Milk Toast Intolerant  Fri, May 23, 2008 10:01:06am

I got the following from the John Hagee site, but anyone can verify the quote with a quick look at the book when visiting a library or book store:

In his book "In Defense of Israel," Mr. Hagee wrote, "Show me an anti-Semitic Christian, and I'll show you a spiritually dead Christian whose hatred for other human beings has strangled his faith."

592 Sharmuta  Fri, May 23, 2008 10:08:10am

re: #588 Milk Toast Intolerant

I found it at this site, but if you search for it, you'll find it cited frequently. I did not however, find video of this speech. But please note after the quote at that sight, it's followed up by this:

Hagee subsequently wrote, in a Charisma Magazine editorial entitled "The Coming Holy War", that the preemptive attack he advocates should be carried out with nuclear weapons.

It's well known this guy seeks action against iran- why is that? I mean- he wants to nuke the middle east! You think that's reasonable? He'd get deleted posting comments like these here! Then there's this:

His latest book, Jerusalem Countdown: A Warning to the World, interprets the Bible to predict that Russian and Arab armies will invade Israel and be destroyed by God.

This will set up a confrontation over Israel between China and the West, led by the anti-Christ, who will be the head of the European Union, Pastor Hagee writes.

That final battle between East and West - at Armageddon, as the actual Israeli location of Meggido is known in English - will precipitate the second coming of Christ, he concludes.

That is from his book. He thinks war in the middle east will bring back Jesus. Disregard the other quote if you want, but it's backed up by similar things he's written.

As with leftists and islamists- so with others and crypto-fascists- we all do ourselves a grave disservice when we don't take people at their own word.

593 Milk Toast Intolerant  Fri, May 23, 2008 10:22:54am

re: #592 Sharmuta


To be honest, these quotes are unlike anything I've ever heard him say on tv. I have seen numerous articles in which some non-religious reporter would totally distort what some preacher said, so I am kind of leary of that.

That is from his book. He thinks war in the middle east will bring back Jesus. Disregard the other quote if you want, but it's backed up by similar things he's written.

He said Armageddon would precede the second coming, not that it would bring back Jesus. According to Revelation, Jesus will come back to rescue Israel during the end times.

594 Charles the Hammer  Fri, May 23, 2008 10:29:22am

re: #592 Sharmuta

Well, like the wildly out-of-context youtube clip that's been floating around, you don't understand what he's trying to say and how it is being portrayed. Charles, too, seems to be completely missing the boat on this one but, as an ex-Proddy, I guess I'm able to understand his position. I don't agree with his theology, but the implication that he is an anti-Semite, let alone that Jews have "dead souls" as that stupid youtube clip claimed, is completely wrong. And the "Whore of Babylon" thing seems to have disappeared, hasn't it?

Simply put, this was a moronic move by McCain who is still desperate for love from the MSM, and he didn't want the slightest thing to get in his way. If he had been on the ball, and actually vetted Hagee, it would have taken mere moments to rip Stephonopolous a new one and explain why the MSM attempt to paint these comments as anti-Semite or anti-Latin was pathetic, and blindingly obvious, lies.

As far as Hagee's apocalyptic theology - again, I don't agree with his theology, and find it deeply misled, but I don't see how that has anything to do with anything. It certainly isn't anti-Semitic, and it certainly isn't anti-Latin. In addition, there is a big difference between prophesying war and claiming that war in the middle East will bring the end times, and actively cheering for it.

I have no doubt that he'd simply say that he is reading the times, not pushing for war. To make that leap is a pretty poor analysis of what he's saying.

Again, I am not a supporter of Hagee, but I don't think this did anyone any good.

the sinner,

Charles

595 Roger  Fri, May 23, 2008 10:32:57am

re: #562 Nat-X

I'm not an atheist or even an agnostic. I was raised Southern Baptist and have attended a Calvary Chapel (which is pretty evangelical) for the past 10 years. Heck, I even played electric guitar in the praise band for a couple years. But if you are intellectually curious, these questions and doubts will certainly arise, unless you're a Kool-Aid drinker.

Are you saying all non-practitioners of Judaism/Christianity are all going to hell? According to Christian doctrine, Jews, too, will go to hell unless they accept Jesus. Even within Christianity, there are myriad divisions regarding how and when one is saved, and for how long. Jesus prayed for the unity of the church as one of his last acts on Earth, yet the Bible is chock full of divisive things.

I'm saying atheists and Christians agree on the first death(all humans will die) We agree. What we don't agree on is the second death and the choice of life; that the second death was overcome by Christ and people can choose life. Atheists say you're dead, you're dead, finito. Christians say there is another possibility/outcome; the soul need not die(the second death) and the soul has the choice.

596 Roger  Fri, May 23, 2008 10:37:39am

re: #594 Charles the Hammer

McCain's trek down this road will yield the White House to his opponent.

597 DownRightMeanAmerican  Fri, May 23, 2008 10:50:08am

re: #581 Junior

Luke 13:1-5 MKJV
(1) And some were present at the same time reporting to Him of the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices.
(2) And answering, Jesus said to them, Do you suppose that these Galileans were sinners above all the Galileans because they suffered such things?
(3) I tell you, No. But unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
(4) Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were sinners above all men who lived in Jerusalem?
(5) I tell you, No. But unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

Based on Luke chapter 13:1-5, I do dismiss it outright, too do otherwise would make Jesus a lair, In my not so humble opinion.

If we perceive the sufferings of others as Gods righteous punishment for “their sins”, then we consider them to be worse sinners than ourselves and that is just not the case. I am not saying God cant or doesn’t pass judgement, I am saying all sinners deserve the same fate, so to say they got what they deserved while I and a host of others get a free pass, is crazy and to me makes God unjust.

598 Charles  Fri, May 23, 2008 10:50:24am

I disagree completely that this is a bad move for McCain. I'm glad he did this; it's long past time to start marginalizing the extreme right religious hucksters and fanatics.

(Mandatory disclaimer: no, I'm not calling all people of faith "fanatics," or calling all preachers "hucksters." But the words do apply to Hagee and Parsley.)

599 Sharmuta  Fri, May 23, 2008 10:58:06am

Fresh Air transcript of hagee interview in pdf form.

Please read Mr. Gorenberg closely.

600 Roger  Fri, May 23, 2008 10:58:52am

re: #598 Charles

Charles I'm referring not just to these guys but what Charles the Hammer was saying about McCain's need to be liked by the MSM. If they find they can; they'll push him to drop all his potential conservative voters and he'll lose in a landslide. One does not have to agree with all of ones voters; its the total count that counts.

601 xenon23  Fri, May 23, 2008 11:02:15am

Well good...lets throw all the wacky rev's under the bus.

Will Mitt toss something under the bus too if he is the VP.

We could use his help with the FLDS here in Texas since the Judge seem to think nothing is wrong on the Ranch.

602 Roger  Fri, May 23, 2008 11:25:06am

Interesting to look at the actual voter turnout numbers over the years.

[Link: www.infoplease.com...]

603 Sharmuta  Fri, May 23, 2008 11:28:48am

Christian Zionism

Some Christian Zionists also believe that the "ingathering" of Jews in Israel is a prerequisite for the Second Coming of Jesus.

Christian Zionism, as a specifically theological belief, does not necessarily entail sympathy for the Jews as a nation or for Judaism as a religion.

604 Roger  Fri, May 23, 2008 11:55:08am
The Bible commands us to pray for the peace of Jerusalem (Psalm 122:6), to speak out for Zion’s sake (Isaiah 62:1), to be watchmen on the walls of Jerusalem (Isaiah 62:6) and to bless the Jewish people (Genesis 12:3). These and so many other verses of the Bible that have one overriding message-- as Christians we have a Biblical obligation to defend Israel and the Jewish people in their time of need.

Israel’s time of need is now. There is a new Hitler in the Middle East --President Ahmadinejad of Iran -- who has threatened to wipe out Israel and America and is rapidly acquiring the nuclear technology to make good on his threat. If we learned anything from the Holocaust, it is that when a madman threatens genocide we must take him seriously.

During the Holocaust, too many Christians were silent, and we were left to mourn the slaughter of 6 million Jews. Today, Bible-believing Christians must speak up and stand up for Israel. We must act to do whatever we can to protect Israel’s 6 million Jews from the second Holocaust. We must get it right this time. Our faith demands it. The times require it. Silence is not an option.

Anti-Semitic? Fanatical? If so, bad to be this kind of fanatic?

605 Richard Romano  Fri, May 23, 2008 11:55:28am

re: #564 Opinionated

Educate me. Even if she has had a recent conversion.

I personally heard her on Bill Mahar's old ABC show, prior to 9/11, express a pro 'Palestinian' position.

Cite for me specific things she has written that manifest a pro-Israel, rather then an anti Islam/Arab, opinion.

Hey, it's possible she's changed and I would congratulate her and welcome her to the side of the angels.

Just listen to Dennis Prager's show from this week -- on townhall. He interviewed Coulter, and she spoke clearly about her support for Israel. She's also written several articles -- you can check the archives on those, where she clearly shows her support for the State of Israel.

There is some merit for supporting Christian and other innocent Palestinians who have live under terrorist leaders -- there's nothing wrong with providing emotional and spiritual support for them, while repudiating the disgusting majority who oppress them; I mean, the same majority who support the lobbing of rockets into Israel to terrorize more innocence.

606 Richard Romano  Fri, May 23, 2008 11:57:57am

re: #603 Sharmuta

Christian Zionism

Fine, but this is one eschatological view among many -- this is also considered by many theologians as "secondary" in doctrinal importance.

607 FoolsMate  Fri, May 23, 2008 12:02:37pm

Mark me down as pleased to see a Republican finally repudiate, instead of embrace, these kinds of embarrassingly ignorant and inflammatory religious nuts.

608 Roger  Fri, May 23, 2008 12:03:23pm

Throwing stones at John Hagee

Theologically, Mr. Hagee believes that one of the greatest sins a Christian can commit is anti-Semitism — hence the reference in the video to the drinking of the blood of the Jews. He was reminding Christians, as he often does, of the long history of Christian anti-Semitism. Mr. Hagee wastes no opportunity to teach Christians that one of the surest ways for a Christian to become a member of the "apostate church" is to engage in anti-Semitism. ...
609 Roger  Fri, May 23, 2008 12:11:34pm

Learn Christian Zionism

Thirty-five years after the Holocaust, the Israeli air force destroyed an Iraqi nuclear reactor at Osirak, outside of Baghdad. The Israelis had determined that Iraq was using the reactor to develop a nuclear bomb, a weapon this implacable enemy might one day use against them. Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin justified the action to the world by declaring that he would not permit “another Holocaust in the history of the Jewish people.”(8) Israel was universally condemned for the Osirak raid, including by its ally the United States.

In San Antonio, Texas, a pastor named John Hagee was dismayed by the loud outcry against Israel's action. He decided to counter the chorus of criticism with a public show of support. With the help of a fellow pastor and two rabbis, Pastor Hagee organized a “Night to Honor Israel.” The day after he held a press conference to announce the upcoming event, someone phoned Pastor Hagee's church and said, “Tell that preacher he'll be dead by Friday.As the evening of the event drew near, someone shot out the windows of Pastor Hagee's car while it was parked in front of his house.

The Night to Honor Israel went ahead as scheduled. After the speeches, Hagee presented a $10,000 check to the president of the local chapter of Hadassah. Then, at 9:27 p.m., Hagee was handed a note. Someone had phoned the San Antonio Express News threatening to blow up the auditorium at 9:30 p.m. The room was quickly evacuated.

Despite this troubled start, Hagee's Night to Honor Israel became an annual event. Over the years, the size of the crowd grew, and a massive television audience was added. And the checks got bigger. At the 2004 Night to Honor Israel, Pastor Hagee presented checks totaling $2.25 million to two Jewish organizations that fund the immigration of Jews to Israel and one that supports Israeli orphans.

When asked why he so staunchly supports Israel, Pastor John Hagee speaks of a “biblical mandate to bless the Jews” and of a Christian “debt of gratitude” to the Jewish people. Pastor Hagee notes that: The Jewish people gave to us the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The prophets, Elijah, Daniel, Zechariah, etc.-not a Baptist in the bunch. Every word in your Bible was written by Jewish hands. The first family of Christianity, Mary, Joseph, and Jesus, were Jewish. Jesus Christ, a Jewish rabbi from Nazareth, made this statement: “Salvation is of the Jews.” The point is this: If you take away the Jewish contribution to Christianity, there would be no Christianity.
read more...

610 Milk Toast Intolerant  Fri, May 23, 2008 12:19:19pm

re: #599 Sharmuta

Fresh Air transcript of hagee interview in pdf form.

Please read Mr. Gorenberg closely.

I've read what Mr. Gorenberg and Mr. Blumenthal said, many of their comments seem to be their personal interpretation of what Christian Zionists believe.

Mr. GERSHOM GORENBERG: Well, I would say that, in the first place, it's something of a contradiction in terms because the people who promote the idea of Christian Zionism are looking at Israel in mythological terms. They're seeing the Jews as actors in a Christian drama leading toward the end of days.

Actors? This is the first time I've heard anyone describing the Jews as actors in a "Christian drama." I hate to disagree with Mr. Gorenberg, but it's all about the Jews. There is a line of thinking that before God does anything, He first does it through the Jewish people. The Nation of Israel is like a foreshadow. But let's focus on what Hagee actually says, as I find that more interesting.

GROSS: Would you like to convince American Christian groups that Israel should be a more important part of their agenda?

Pastor HAGEE: I would like to convince American Christians that they have Bible mandate to support Israel, to pray for Israel, to speak up for the peace of Israel, to pray for the peace of Jerusalem, and to be a blessing to the Jewish people because that is the biblical mandate that we have. We may have a political difference with the prime minister, and I have made this very clear to Prime Minister Olmert. I wrote him a letter shortly after he was elected and wished him well and told him that he would be in my prayers and my thoughts, and I wished him every success and this was before the war began. But I said in that letter very specifically that `I must disagree with your policy of giving
land away to the terrorists organizations,' and he has a political philosophy that disagrees with the biblical position that we have, and we'll just agree to disagree. But meantime, we're going forward, we're doing everything that we can to benefit the people of Israel, to bless the people of Israel, because they are, in fact, the nation.

In addition to the paragraph above, Hagee's political group opposes land for peace, because we all know how well that has worked for Israel. They also opposed a ceasefire during the Lebanon war last summer, because as predicted by them and many on this blog, the ceasefire would end with more violent clashes started by Hezbollah.

611 mjwsatx  Fri, May 23, 2008 12:21:27pm

The view from the San Antonio Express News. San Antonio is home to Hagee's Cornerstone Church:

Hagee's overtures to Jewish people have drawn widely varying reactions, often depending on which branch of the faith they belong to. Generally, Jewish leaders respect his work to raise awareness of Christian anti-Semitism. He got a big boost a year ago when, speaking to the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, he received rousing applause for his message about Christian support of Israel.

He has a longstanding friendship with Rabbi Aryeh Scheinberg, of San Antonio's Orthodox Rodfei Sholom congregation, who came to his defense Thursday, saying Hagee's words were politicized and taken out of context.

Scheinberg, who represents an Orthodox community, said Hagee's words in question are rooted in Jewish theology that seeks to answer the persistent question of why God allowed the Holocaust to happen.

When Jews in Germany allowed their devotion to erode and didn't observe the Torah fully, God allowed Hitler to commit genocide and then bring about the state of Israel as a remedy, Scheinberg believes.

“It's not that (Jews) caused it but that the way we act in the world — if we cease to be a light to the nations, there's greater evil in the world,” he said. “That's taught in seminary and yeshiva and that's for a philosophy class when one could contemplate such things. It's not for headlines in the newspaper.”

Scheinberg said what's lost in what he considers the knee-jerk reaction to Hagee is how deeply the pastor loves and seeks to protect the Jewish people, noting he observed Hagee once shed tears on a visit to the Israel's official Holocaust museum in Jerusalem.

“Really, his love of the Jewish people is what motivates him to see that the Jewish people are not victimized again in Israel and anywhere else in the world,” Scheinberg said.

In contrast, Rabbi Eric Yoffie, president of the Union for Reform Judaism in New York, which represents the largest branch of U.S. Judaism, was alarmed by Hagee's sermon.

He publicly clashed with Hagee this year and urged Jews not to associate with Hagee's Christians United for Israel, asserting that Hagee lacks respect for other religions and objects to Israel making concessions for land — both claims Hagee denies.

News of Hagee's controversial sermon about the Holocaust prompted Yoffie to ask Hagee about it in a letter Wednesday.

“To blame the victims for the Holocaust and to suggest that they brought it on themselves is a desecration of their name and their memory ...,” he wrote. “I am aware of the work that you have done on behalf of the State of Israel, and for that reason I find your remarks especially troubling.”

San Antonio Rabbi Barry Block, a public critic of Hagee, noted the pastor recently has tempered some of his offensive statements but that his view of the Holocaust shows he has more to correct.

“Nobody should have been surprised that Pastor Hagee has made many hate-filled comments in the past in his books, his sermons and in numerous other venues,” Block said. “The comments about Hitler that have recently come to light may be particularly troubling to Jews, but we should be no less concerned by the hatred that he has spewed toward Muslims, Catholics, homosexuals and others in the past.”

If he corrects his statements sincerely, Block said, Hagee would find “forgiveness from God and humanity.”

The Washington Post and Express-News Staff Writer Abe Levy contributed to this report.

612 Roger  Fri, May 23, 2008 12:31:17pm

Worth while graphics and statistics pointed to by the CUFI.

613 Junior  Fri, May 23, 2008 12:33:05pm

re: #597 DownRightMeanAmerican


Based on Luke chapter 13:1-5, I do dismiss it outright, too do otherwise would make Jesus a lair, In my not so humble opinion.

If we perceive the sufferings of others as Gods righteous punishment for “their sins”, then we consider them to be worse sinners than ourselves and that is just not the case. I am not saying God cant or doesn’t pass judgement, I am saying all sinners deserve the same fate, so to say they got what they deserved while I and a host of others get a free pass, is crazy and to me makes God unjust.

Umm... what? Was this really directed to me? I never said anything even remotely close to that. All I said was anybody who says something like Katrina definately wasn't a punishment from God makes himself to know that for a fact. Do you really know for a fact that Katrina (or any other disaster) is not a punishment or at least a message from God? Really?

I never said anything about anybody deserving punishment over anybody else - to the contrary I even wrote to that directly. The only point I made was to determine whether or not something was or was not from God is claiming to know it in the first place!

614 Junior  Fri, May 23, 2008 12:40:49pm

re: #597 DownRightMeanAmerican

I am not saying God cant or doesn’t pass judgement, I am saying all sinners deserve the same fate, so to say they got what they deserved while I and a host of others get a free pass, is crazy and to me makes God unjust.

One more thing about this part of what you said. While agree we all deserve the same fate I never even implied that "they got what they deserved".

But in conclusion - there are many things that we can look at and say are unjust. Even things that God has done. But what we have to realize is the possibility (shocker!) that what is just in God's eyes will NOT be just in our eyes.

615 DownRightMeanAmerican  Fri, May 23, 2008 1:39:25pm

re: #613 Junior

Hagee professing to know why Katrina happened is not that valid to me - but leaving Hagee out if it - completely dismissing that is why it happened is also not valid.


Sorry if I misunderstood, but the way I read that, the reason is still the same, being their sin is greater.

I was not trying to suggest that you said “they got what they deserved”, but that is what Hagee suggests when he claims this and that happened because of their sin.

I agree, I don’t know if hurricanes are Gods divine punishment, or are not, as with all natural disasters, not excluding earthquakes and that is why Jesus says in Luke 13, “repent or you will likewise perish”, in other words, we all are going to die and your number could be up at any moment, so you better be ready.

I absolutely agree that my idea of justice is not the same as Gods, but at the same time I know His word a little and I don’t believe He violates that word.

In the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, God would not destroy those cities if even 10 people were righteous as Abraham found out, I know God hasn’t changed and I feel pretty confident that at least 10 righteous people existed in New Orleans at the time of Katrina.

616 Just Another Four-letter Word  Fri, May 23, 2008 1:49:18pm

re: #90 unrealizedviewpoint

I'm very late to the thread(s). Would someone please say something really really offensive so I can try out the new report bat?

You suck.

Your mother was a Hamster and your Father smelled of elderberries!

JAFLW

/good enough?

617 Nat-X  Fri, May 23, 2008 3:59:35pm

re: #595 Roger

Roger, Roger.

...what's our vector, Victor?

...what's our clearance, Clarence?

618 CommonCents  Fri, May 23, 2008 4:49:35pm

re: #612 Roger

Nice link but what I find troubling is the headline on that link that "99.5% of U.S. Congress commends Israeli democracy". Whose the 0.5% and what chump was against it.

619 finallyhere  Fri, May 23, 2008 7:26:42pm

This is what Hagee said. If you read Hagee's book "In Defense of Israel" you will see that there is no better friend of Jews and Israel than Hagee.
All religious people struggling to understand why G-d allowed Holocaust to happen.

I am Jew and I am not offended by his words. I do not agree with him. Israel would be established without Holocaust in my opinion.
But on the other hand a million Jews from the former USSR would not come to Israel if not for a rabid Antisemitism there. Some would, but not a million.

620 Charles the Hammer  Sat, May 24, 2008 4:39:21pm

re: #598 Charles

I disagree completely that this is a bad move for McCain. I'm glad he did this; it's long past time to start marginalizing the extreme right religious hucksters and fanatics.

(Mandatory disclaimer: no, I'm not calling all people of faith "fanatics," or calling all preachers "hucksters." But the words do apply to Hagee and Parsley.)

I don't know much about Parsley, but I wouldn't consider Hagee a "huckster." Not in the "the world is going to end so send me millions of dollars" type of Huckster. He is one of thousands upon thousands of misled people who truly believes what he is saying. To call him "extreme right wing" is entirely inaccurate.

the sinner,

Charles

621 opinionated  Sat, May 24, 2008 7:12:51pm

Jews defend Hagee's words

"John Hagee is one of the Jewish people's best friends," Los Angeles talk show host Dennis Prager said on the air yesterday morning. "Identifying John Hagee with anti-Semitism would be like identifying Raoul Wallenberg, the great Swede who saved thousands of Jews in the Holocaust, with anti-Semitism."


Orthodox Rabbi Aryeh Scheinberg, of Congregation Rodfei Sholom in San Antonio, appeared at an afternoon press conference yesterday to say Mr. Hagee's "words were twisted and used to attack him for being anti-Semitic."

[Link: washingtontimes.com...]

622 scooby  Sat, May 24, 2008 11:25:11pm

Charles, don't forget that for every bigoted huckster out there, there are a hundred very decent people. The left has recognized that Wright is a liability to them and as a result they are going after Hagee. Here's a balanced critique, such as this: [Link: tinyurl.com...] . I won't say the guy's a straight shooter, obviously there are some financial questions unanswered, but these soundbites are grossly distorting the truth.

That said, McCain was right to reject the endorsement, as was Hagee to withdraw it. There's no reason for him to continue to be a punching bag for the left.


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