LGF

more options

  

Advertisement

Seattle Jihadi Murderer Gets Mistrial

Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 8:50:06 pm PDT

Enraged by the Lebanon War in 2006, Naveed Haq burst into a Jewish center and started shooting people while screaming “Death to the Jews!”

But that wasn’t enough to satisfy a Seattle jury that he was guilty. Mistrial for man who shot 6 at Jewish center.

SEATTLE, Washington (AP) — A judge declared a mistrial Wednesday in the case of a man who stormed into a Jewish center two years ago and shot six women, killing one, as he ranted against Israel and the Iraq war.

Naveed Haq stormed into a Jewish center two years ago and shot six women, killing one.

Jurors had indicated in questions posed to the judge that they were hopelessly deadlocked and struggling to determine whether Naveed Haq, 32, was not guilty by reason of insanity, as he claimed.

King County Superior Court Judge Paris Kallas ended the jury’s deliberations in their eighth day.

The jurors reached a partial verdict on only one of the 15 counts against Haq, finding him not guilty of attempted first-degree murder of one of the women. But they couldn’t agree on the lesser charge of attempted second-degree murder or any of the other 14 charges, which included murder.

Haq held a teenage girl at gunpoint to force his way into the Jewish Federation of Greater Seattle on July 28, 2006. Once in the second-floor office, he began railing against U.S. policies and opened fire when someone tried to call 911. He shot some people in their cubicles, some in the hall and one, Pamela Waechter, fatally as she fled down a stairwell.

An emergency operator eventually persuaded him to surrender.

Prosecutors quickly announced that they hope to retry Haq this year, and representatives of the Jewish Federation of Greater Seattle expressed their disappointment at the mistrial.

“There is no argument Haq killed Pam. There is no argument he viciously shot five others. There is no argument that he made anti-Israel and anti-Semitic statements. Somehow, all this was not enough,” Jewish Federation President Richard Fruchter said.

Advertisement

1020 comments

  • Comments are open and unmoderated, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Little Green Footballs.
  • Obscene, abusive, silly, or annoying remarks may be deleted, but the fact that particular comments remain on the site in no way constitutes an endorsement of their views by Little Green Footballs.
  • Posts that contain phone numbers, street addresses, email addresses or other personal information will also be deleted, as will posts that consist only of a variation on the word, "First!"
  • Comments that advocate violence will be cause for immediate banning with no appeal.
  • Disagreement and debate are welcome, but insults and abuse are not, and may cause your account to be blocked.
  • REMEMBER: posting comments at LGF is a privilege, not a right. Abuse that privilege, and your account will be blocked.

Hide comments | Jump to bottom

1 Mars Needs Neocons  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:51:06pm

Scumbag

2 jcm  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:51:24pm

For the first time in my life I'm proud of a Seattle jury.

//////////////

3 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:51:32pm

Injustice!

4 savage_nation[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:51:40pm
5 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:51:46pm

What the hell is wrong with the people in Seattle?

6 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:51:57pm

Then there are the brainless Jurors, who asked that idiotic question to cause a mistrial!

7 Sharmuta  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:52:20pm

He's not insane- he's islamic.

8 Ojoe  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:53:02pm

What madness this is
What lawyers that can twist any yes into a no

9 savage_nation[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:53:09pm
10 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:53:15pm

No one wants to admit to themselves that someone could do things like this in the name of religion...someone always wants to say "it can't happen", but it does. Every century. Apparently we are not studying our history...

11 Inquisitive  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:53:21pm

Okay blood pressure just shot up big time! !

12 Gozer the Carpathian  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:53:44pm

Oi oi... seriously! I want to know the numbers on that one. Was there only one sane person there? 10? You have bloody evidence he shot those people, how do you not find him guilty of SOMETHING?

13 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:53:50pm

This is no surprise with the moonbat jury pool in Seattle. I would be surprised if this case ever results in a conviction. Seattle and San Fran are the safest cities for Jihad.

14 Sharmuta  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:53:58pm

Being a "crazy jihadi" is not an excuse for murder!

15 Ning the Merciless  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:54:02pm

I didn't know they let you smoke crack in Seattle courts.

16 jcm  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:54:03pm

re: #5 DesertSage

What the hell is wrong with the people in Seattle?

They've been electing McDimwitt for years. I live here, and it still baffles me.

17 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:54:15pm

re: #8 Ojoe

What madness this is
What lawyers that can twist any yes into a no

You know...

He probably is entitled to the protections of the Geneva Conventions, too.

18 capitalist piglet  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:54:32pm

My God...I am so ashamed of my neighbors in Seattle. This is sick.

19 6pat6  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:54:38pm

Seattle has such a high percentage of Californicators living there these days. Any surprise that justice was NOT done?

20 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:54:41pm

re: #15 Ning the Merciless

I didn't know they let you smoke crack in Seattle courts.

Drug testing for jurors!

21 OtisMyMan  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:55:03pm

Didn't he know this was a "Gun Free Zone"?

22 6pat6  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:55:29pm

re: #20 brainwizard73

Drug testing for jurors!

A positive test is mandatory to be selected there!

23 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:55:38pm
He burst into a Jewish center and started shooting people while screaming “Death to the Jews!”

/after a few years of an Obama administration, with a Bonkey Congress, probably won't even be a crime anymore

24 nachomamma  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:55:49pm

I knew Naveed in dental school. in this case I think it should be pointed out that something was wrong with Naveed mentally. As a Jew, my knee jerk reaction was anti-semitism, and yes he obviously is an anti-semite based on what he did, and said.... but he was not stable either.

25 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:56:18pm

re: #5 DesertSage

What the hell is wrong with the people in Seattle?

You mean that if the roles were reversed (Jewish guy goes into Islamic community center and opens fire) that the wouldn't have the same problem convicting him?

Where the hell is your faith in humanity?

You are probably one of those bitter people...

26 Inquisitive  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:56:19pm

re: #7 Sharmuta

He's not insane- he's islamic.

Of course he is insane-he is islamic, but not the kind of insane that didn't know what he was doing was wrong. In fact since he is islamic then he beleived what he was doing was right.

27 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:56:29pm

re: #16 jcm

They've been electing McDimwitt for years. I live here, and it still baffles me.

Are they in a competition with San Francisco for the country's dumbest city? I don't get it...and I live in freaking CA.

28 jcm  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:56:29pm

Haq planned this.
He got the weapons. He practiced with them. His computer showed he searched for Jewish locations in Seattle.

His confession was tossed by the judge.

The defense got an OJ jury, which ain't hard in Seattle.

29 mikeinmd  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:56:33pm
King County Superior Court Judge Paris Kallas ended the jury’s deliberations in their eighth day.

It took them 8 FUCKING DAYS ?

AHHHHHHH>

30 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:57:37pm
They noted that Haq planned the shooting for days, drove from his eastern Washington home to Seattle the morning of the shooting and hid in the building's foyer to avoid detection.

He knew what he was doing.

31 Macker  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:58:04pm

re: #24 nachomamma

I knew Naveed in dental school. in this case I think it should be pointed out that something was wrong with Naveed mentally. As a Jew, my knee jerk reaction was anti-semitism, and yes he obviously is an anti-semite based on what he did, and said.... but he was not stable either.

Sorry, but anyone who's a jihadist is mentally unbalanced in my book!

32 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:58:13pm

re: #25 brainwizard73

You are probably one of those bitter people...

I'm getting more bitter everyday too.

33 LoFlyer  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:58:39pm

I guarantee if the attack had taken place at the Seattle Times and left six dead journalists, the verdict would of been different. Its funny how public opinion changes when the media puts their brand of spin on the story. My neice lives in Portland and has the same liberal attitude of Seattle. The "War is not the answer" sign on the front yard of her parents explain a lot of their attitude.

34 unclassifiable  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:58:59pm

I do not understand the legal hair-splitting.

Do you differentiate between sane and insane murderers because one is less of a threat to society than another?

35 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:59:00pm

Well, it looks as if the state of Washington is a jihadist haven, I'm sure the jihadists will be flocking there to perpetuate their islmofascist human butchery.

Once news of this spreads, jihadists from all over the world will be moving to Washington state, why not, as with most criminals in the USA, there is no real punishment for crimes, even 1st degree murder.

jihadis will be passing out candies everywhere, knowing that in the state of Washington, you can murder in the name of allah, and receive no earthly consequences.


We need to get STUCK MOJO's "Open Season" circulating again, I listened to it today, and it's as great as when I first heard it.

36 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:59:05pm
37 jcm  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:59:07pm

Unfortunately this is one of the rare cases where the guns where bought legally, and Haq got a CPL (Concealed Pistol License). WA is a shall issue State and unless there's a felony record, will issue one. Mental health falls under HIPA and can't be referenced.

This case is already being used by the gun grabbers.

38 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:59:13pm

[self deleted comment about certain people and insanity]
Discuss whether I meant Seattle jurors, or people similar to the murderer.

And yes, I think this would become more acceptable under an Obamanation presidency. His connection to the Nation of Islam, for example, will make such anti-Semitism respectable.
If Obama is elected, we'll need Israel more than ever, and he'll sell Israel down the river.

39 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:59:35pm

can there,will there be a retrial?

40 jcm  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:59:41pm

re: #29 mikeinmd

It took them 8 FUCKING DAYS ?

AHHHHHHH>

7 and a half days to agree to where to order coffee from.

41 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:59:45pm

re: #24 nachomamma

I knew Naveed in dental school. in this case I think it should be pointed out that something was wrong with Naveed mentally. As a Jew, my knee jerk reaction was anti-semitism, and yes he obviously is an anti-semite based on what he did, and said.... but he was not stable either.

To be fair, "stability" is not the standard for legal insanity. Homeboy might have had some real issues, but from the article, it looks fairly premeditated, looks like there was evidence of intent, and that the guy knew what he was doing was wrong...sounds like a guilty verdict to me, or at least not a hard "is this insanity or not" angst.

42 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:00:04pm

re: #32 DesertSage

I'm getting more bitter everyday too.

Save room on the last chopper for me, please.

43 OtisMyMan  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:00:10pm

If he had done this in a Gay/Lesbian/Bi/Transgender center, perhaps the reporting would have been different, the treatment at trial would have been different and the results would have been different.

44 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:00:17pm

I guarantee that if it had been a Jew, and he walked past a mosque in
a menacing manner, the verdict would be different.

45 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:00:18pm

re: #39 joecitizen

I assume they will retry the case.

46 Mars Needs Neocons  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:00:20pm

re: #35 republic

Well, it looks as if the state of Washington is a jihadist haven, I'm sure the jihadists will be flocking there to perpetuate their islmofascist human butchery.

Once news of this spreads, jihadists from all over the world will be moving to Washington state, why not, as with most criminals in the USA, there is no real punishment for crimes, even 1st degree murder.

jihadis will be passing out candies everywhere, knowing that in the state of Washington, you can murder in the name of allah, and receive no earthly consequences.


We need to get STUCK MOJO's "Open Season" circulating again, I listened to it today, and it's as great as when I first heard it.

Just saw the video the other day. Wow. I liked their music with Fozzy, didn't know they had a "right wing rant".

47 Sharmuta  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:00:26pm

re: #30 MandyManners

He knew what he was doing.

Exactly- that's not insanity- it's premeditation.

48 savage_nation[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:00:30pm
49 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:00:30pm

re: #23 Killian Bundy

/after a few years of an Obama administration, with a Bonkey Congress, probably won't even be a crime anymore

Didn't you here, Obama said today he is going to be the best friend that Israel has ever had in the history of mankind.

/

50 solomonpanting  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:00:44pm
If found guilty, Haq would have been sent to prison for life without the possibility of release. While presenting his insanity defense, Haq's attorneys said he posed a risk to society and should instead be locked in a state mental hospital for the rest of his life.

He should have been prosecuted for a hate crime.
//

51 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:00:54pm

re: #39 joecitizen

can there,will there be a retrial?

One story (not sure if this the one) says prosecutors want to try him again...

Thought: Move the trial to, say, Boise?

52 Sharmuta  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:00:57pm

re: #39 joecitizen

can there,will there be a retrial?

Yes:


Prosecutors quickly announced that they hope to retry Haq this year
53 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:01:05pm

My guess is the piece of shit picked Seattle for a reason. Those liberal freaks do send Jim McDimwitt to congress every year.

54 Mich-again  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:01:32pm

So then, the jury said that Islam = Insanity. Well allrighty then. I'm waiting for the angry missive from CAIR.

55 jcm  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:01:54pm

re: #51 brainwizard73

One story (not sure if this the one) says prosecutors want to try him again...

Thought: Move the trial to, say, Boise?

We have a good prosecutor in King Co. he'll retry.

56 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:02:02pm

re: #48 savage_nation

More than trade will be cut off, to be sure.

57 mikeinmd  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:02:19pm

re: #40 jcm

7 and a half days to agree to where to order coffee from.

There's probably some truth to that.

58 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:02:19pm

re: #53 Bob in Breckenridge

My guess is the piece of shit picked Seattle for a reason. Those liberal freaks do send Jim McDimwitt to congress every year.

Every other year. Whatever.

59 savage_nation[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:02:22pm
60 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:02:32pm

My real thoughts on this matter would get deleted or lead to a ban.

61 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:02:51pm

Anyone know whatever happened to the Jihadi who ran down the crowd of people with his rental car out east?

/the one who thought Islam was numerically perfect (another insanity defense)?

62 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:02:51pm

re: #40 jcm

7 and a half days to agree to where to order coffee from.

They probably had waffles at the Holiday Inn during sequestration.

63 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:02:57pm

re: #46 Mars Needs Neocons

Just saw the video the other day. Wow. I liked their music with Fozzy, didn't know they had a "right wing rant".

I got an autogrphed CD last year.

"I'm an American" is another great tune off the CD.

64 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:03:27pm

re: #55 jcm

We have a good prosecutor in King Co. he'll retry.

How about getting a new juror pool? How easy will it be to find new jurors?

65 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:03:27pm

re: #33 LoFlyer

I guarantee if the attack had taken place at the Seattle Times and left six dead journalists, the verdict would of been different. Its funny how public opinion changes when the media puts their brand of spin on the story. My neice lives in Portland and has the same liberal attitude of Seattle. The "War is not the answer" sign on the front yard of her parents explain a lot of their attitude.

Oh, for heaven's sake.

The problem here rests with a jury that couldn't get its act together, and was regardless charged to not read or watch media reports on the trial.

The endless, limitless blame-the-media mindset is fruitless.

Blame the jury. Blame the prosecutors. Blame the judge. And, of course, blame the killer.

66 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:03:55pm

re: #45 Killgore Trout

I assume they will retry the case.


and,based on geography,this slimefuck will probably walk as a free man again...what's the word I'm lookimg for?..v something..vigilance?..no, that's not it,gimme a second...

67 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:04:02pm

re: #48 savage_nation

Do you think Obama would go so far as to cut off trade with Israel?

Not directly, but he'll pressure Israel to stop building "settlements" (in other words, stop making room for more Jews, and make sure the demographics favors "palestinians"), and make it harder for them to defend themselves.

68 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:04:18pm

re: #50 solomonpanting

He should have been prosecuted for a hate crime.
//

That's only if a activist leftist judge or jury decides if it is a hate crime.

69 savage_nation[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:04:30pm
70 stevieray  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:04:31pm

Gotta find a way to keep moral relativists and multiculti moonbats off of juries. How can they judge guilt or innocence when they believe the highest human value is non-judgmentalism?

71 Inquisitive  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:04:48pm

re: #50 solomonpanting
While presenting his insanity defense, Haq's attorneys said he posed a risk to society and should instead be locked in a state mental hospital for the rest of his life.

He should have been prosecuted for a hate crime.
//


and they didn't even do that!

72 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:04:59pm

re: #60 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

My real thoughts on this matter would get deleted or lead to a ban.

It's happened to the best of us, Kragar. More than once to me specifically.

73 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:05:01pm

re: #5 DesertSage

What the hell is wrong with the people in Seattle?

SeaTac= Berkley with frostbite on the brain.

74 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:05:17pm

re: #69 savage_nation

You are the multi-thread man.

75 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:05:23pm

re: #67 Kosh's Shadow

Not directly, but he'll pressure Israel to stop building "settlements" (in other words, stop making room for more Jews, and make sure the demographics favors "palestinians"), and make it harder for them to defend themselves.

/and not intervene or retaliate if they're seriously attacked

76 6pat6  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:05:23pm

re: #53 Bob in Breckenridge

My guess is the piece of shit picked Seattle for a reason. Those liberal freaks do send Jim McDimwitt to congress every year.

I can pretty mucjh guarantee a like-minded bag of shit like him would not even THINK of doing that in Texas or Oklahoma. We actually EXECUTE murderers! In fact, OK is getting ready to electricute, oops, "put to sleep in a humane method" the first murderer to be put to death in the US since that ridiculous moratorium, while the SC debated that method of execution as not "cruel and unusual"

77 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:05:46pm

re: #69 savage_nation

Death by a thousand cuts?

That's the Arab "peace by pieces" plan.

78 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:05:51pm

re: #70 stevieray

Gotta find a way to keep moral relativists and multiculti moonbats off of juries. How can they judge guilt or innocence when they believe the highest human value is non-judgmentalism?

How does one discriminate between behaivors when one thinks that discrimination is the ultimate evil?

It is the greatest blind spot of modern liberalism.

79 LoFlyer  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:05:56pm

re: #50 solomonpanting

He should have been prosecuted for a hate crime.
//

Hate crimes are dependant upon the status of the victims. Jews are not considered a protected minority. Also the race and culture of the perpertrator must be considered. This guy was not white or Christian. Makes all the difference in the world for our system of justice. Kind of sux for the six dead Jews though!

80 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:06:13pm

re: #73 JeremyR

SeaTac= Berkley with frostbite on the brain.

Ha.

The atmospheric gloominess in Seattle is nice for a few days, but I think it starts to mess with people's minds, after a while...

81 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:06:24pm

re: #65 Cognito

Oh, for heaven's sake.

The problem here rests with a jury that couldn't get its act together, and was regardless charged to not read or watch media reports on the trial.

The endless, limitless blame-the-media mindset is fruitless.

Blame the jury. Blame the prosecutors. Blame the judge. And, of course, blame the killer.


I've heard there are some real "bullies" on certain juries, like most of the jurors were going to rule one way, and the "bully" would brow beat them until they would capitulte, and swing the other way.

82 jcm  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:06:32pm

re: #64 brainwizard73

How about getting a new juror pool? How easy will it be to find new jurors?

I've been in two jury pools, I was first dismissed by the attorney's both times.
Everyone with a job, will get hardship dismissals, they tend to get Oprah juries. Add the leftward leaning looniness of Seattle and viola you've got a jury who will buy the whole victim, insane line.

83 6pat6  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:06:33pm
re: #40 jcm

7 and a half days to agree to where to order coffee from.

Yeah, the Starbucks on one of the four corners of the SAME G-D intersection!

84 Syrah  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:06:41pm

re: #64 brainwizard73

How about getting a new juror pool? How easy will it be to find new jurors?

Thats the rub.

Seattle is run rife with moon-bats.

The surrounding areas aren't that much better.

85 jcm  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:07:00pm

re: #73 JeremyR

SeaTac= Berkley with frostbite on the brain.

ROFL! very true.

86 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:07:36pm

Moral relativism will be the downfall of this country.

87 solomonpanting  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:07:55pm

re: #79 LoFlyer



Kind of sux for the six dead Jews though!

One died, five others wounded.

88 Bacchus's daddy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:08:06pm

re: #7 Sharmuta

He's not insane- he's islamic.

The similarity between the two could be a real fucking thorn in the side of the prosecutors in this country of any future Jihadists.

89 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:08:15pm

I my neighborhood, they are opening a Starbucks .......in a Starbucks.


...Dennis Miller

90 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:08:22pm

re: #86 DesertSage

Moral relativism will be the downfall of this country.

True, true.

91 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:08:24pm

re: #76 6pat6

I can pretty mucjh guarantee a like-minded bag of shit like him would not even THINK of doing that in Texas or Oklahoma. We actually EXECUTE murderers! In fact, OK is getting ready to electricute, oops, "put to sleep in a humane method" the first murderer to be put to death in the US since that ridiculous moratorium, while the SC debated that method of execution as not "cruel and unusual"

Actually, I was going to type liberal fucks...

92 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:08:32pm

re: #80 Cognito

The atmospheric gloominess in Seattle is nice for a few days, but I think it starts to mess with people's minds, after a while...


Direct sunlight causes me physical and psychological pain.

93 jcm  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:08:58pm

Outta here Lizards.
Good night all.

Justice is conscience, not a personal conscience but the conscience of the whole of humanity. Those who clearly recognize the voice of their own conscience usually recognize also the voice of justice.
ALEXANDER SOLZHENITSYN

94 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:09:36pm

re: #81 republic

I've heard there are some real "bullies" on certain juries, like most of the jurors were going to rule one way, and the "bully" would brow beat them until they would capitulte, and swing the other way.

That would be on a jury. How come I NEVER get an invitation?

95 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:09:49pm

re: #24 nachomamma

I knew Naveed in dental school. in this case I think it should be pointed out that something was wrong with Naveed mentally. As a Jew, my knee jerk reaction was anti-semitism, and yes he obviously is an anti-semite based on what he did, and said.... but he was not stable either.

As a non-Jew human being, my knee-jerk reaction also was anti-semitism - you say you knew him in dental school; and from that you have figured out that he was not "stable"?

Even if he wasn't/isn't "stable" - does he know right from wrong? Would he have known that what he did was against the laws of this country?

96 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:09:50pm

re: #92 Killgore Trout

Direct sunlight causes me physical and psychological pain.

It sounds like you're a bat, K Trout.

97 Syrah  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:09:54pm

re: #92 Killgore Trout

Direct sunlight causes me physical and psychological pain.

You would like Seattle then.

It is a very gray city.

Sunny days are a rarity.

98 LoFlyer  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:10:01pm

re: #65 Cognito

Oh, for heaven's sake.

The problem here rests with a jury that couldn't get its act together, and was regardless charged to not read or watch media reports on the trial.

The endless, limitless blame-the-media mindset is fruitless.

Blame the jury. Blame the prosecutors. Blame the judge. And, of course, blame the killer.

Cog, you know damn well if he had killed six journalists at the Seattle Times, he would of been tried and convicted in the "court of public opinion" and found guilty in the trial. Our media provides the framework for public opinion, and they are neither fair or balanced.
/Its just six Jews killed by a Muslim, who cares? (except their families)

99 Noam Sayin'  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:10:43pm

Oh, for crying out loud.

The problem here rests with a a media that couldn't be bothered with digging into the story, and was regardless, oblivious to the story as a whole.

The endless, limitless[,] lack of this kind of coverage is fruitful, perhaps, eventually (for some, but only for a little while).

Heh™

100 Bacchus's daddy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:10:45pm

re: #93 jcm

Outta here Lizards.
Good night all.

Justice is conscience, not a personal conscience but the conscience of the whole of humanity. Those who clearly recognize the voice of their own conscience usually recognize also the voice of justice.
ALEXANDER SOLZHENITSYN

Excellent quote! I love Solzhenitsyn, and I think his First Circle was one of the most underappreciated novels of the last century. IMHO

101 Intrepid  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:10:55pm

Folks, this guy Haq is insane. He is nuttier than a fruitcake.

Yes, he is guilty of killing those people, but he is indeed insane, legally and psychologically.

He is not a Jihadhii.

He is one who is probably picking flies off the wall to eat, he is that crazy.

102 savage_nation[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:11:00pm
103 Dotcoman  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:11:26pm

re: #4 savage_nation

WTF?

Exactly!

What the hell is wrong with Seattle's' jury pool?

Or did CAIR somehow manage to spike the Jury?

I don't think that's the right term for it, but....?

104 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:12:26pm

re: #103 Dotcoman

What the hell is wrong with Seattle's' jury pool?

Too much chlorine.

105 Neo Con since 9-11  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:12:40pm

re: #65 Cognito

Oh, for heaven's sake.

The problem here rests with a jury that couldn't get its act together, and was regardless charged to not read or watch media reports on the trial.

The endless, limitless blame-the-media mindset is fruitless.

Blame the jury. Blame the prosecutors. Blame the judge. And, of course, blame the killer.

The point is that ha d this been anything but a Jewish center attacked by a muslim the jury would have sent him to prison for life in half a day. Had this been a Jew attacking a mosque. If this had been an evangelical Christian attacking a GLBT or abortion clinic. If this had been a racist attacking a NAACP meeting. In all these cases, the guy would never have seen daylight again.

106 Charles  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:12:47pm

re: #101 Intrepid

Folks, this guy Haq is insane. He is nuttier than a fruitcake.

Yes, he is guilty of killing those people, but he is indeed insane, legally and psychologically.

He is not a Jihadhii.

He is one who is probably picking flies off the wall to eat, he is that crazy.

And that makes him different from any other jihadi murderer who slaughters Jews... how, exactly?

107 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:12:49pm

re: #82 jcm

I've been in two jury pools, I was first dismissed by the attorney's both times.
Everyone with a job, will get hardship dismissals, they tend to get Oprah juries. Add the leftward leaning looniness of Seattle and viola you've got a jury who will buy the whole victim, insane line.

Right, it hard to get good juries anyway, but after a mistrial in a high profile case, you have to wonder if a change in venue might not be a potential option.

108 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:12:53pm

re: #101 Intrepid

Folks, this guy Haq is insane. He is nuttier than a fruitcake.

Yes, he is guilty of killing those people, but he is indeed insane, legally and psychologically.

He is not a Jihadhii.

He is one who is probably picking flies off the wall to eat, he is that crazy.

He, or anyone who commits murder needs to have their life taken.

Period.

109 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:12:58pm

re: #81 republic

I've heard there are some real "bullies" on certain juries, like most of the jurors were going to rule one way, and the "bully" would brow beat them until they would capitulte, and swing the other way.

Shit, PIMF- That would be ME on a jury. How come I never get an invitation?

110 solomonpanting  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:13:03pm

re: #94 Bob in Breckenridge

That would be on a jury. How come I NEVER get an invitation?

I've been selected (not elected) for two weeks of Federal Jury service next month.

111 LEGION  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:13:18pm

Stupid in Seattle.

112 Mich-again  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:13:26pm

It is telling how when moonbats have to actually dissect the murderous actions of a full-fledged jihadi they determine that the perp must have been insane. So then it seems the precedent is that religious fundamentalists who commit felonies in the cause of promoting their religion are actually "insane".

I wonder how that line of defense would work for a Christian fundie who assaulted a homosexual or bombed an abortion clinic because that act was aligned with their form of religion.

113 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:13:50pm

re: #106 Charles

Did he plead insanity? Just wondering.

114 LoFlyer  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:13:53pm

Personally I have never understood the insanity defense plea. Doesn't matter to the victims whether you are sane or insane, they are still dead. The perpertrator should receive the same punishment, regardless of sanity.

115 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:14:04pm

re: #101 Intrepid

Folks, this guy Haq is insane. He is nuttier than a fruitcake.

Yes, he is guilty of killing those people, but he is indeed insane, legally and psychologically.

He is not a Jihadhii.

He is one who is probably picking flies off the wall to eat, he is that crazy.

From the article:

They noted that Haq planned the shooting for days, drove from his eastern Washington home to Seattle the morning of the shooting and hid in the building's foyer to avoid detection.

116 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:14:05pm

re: #106 Charles

And that makes him different from any other jihadi murderer who slaughters Jews... how, exactly?

If it's true that he's insane -- literally, clinically, chemically insane -- it does matter.

117 6pat6  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:14:05pm

Seattle is such a depressing place. Lived there for a while, and could not wait to leave. Between the climate and the lunatics that breed there...

118 paradox42  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:14:43pm

If the tables were turned and this POS was a Jew who shot at muslim women, this jury would have sent him to the chair. Deep down in places they refuse to acknowledge, they know that islam is dangerous. They know that muslims don't value human life, and that CAIR would think nothing off offing some jurors who voted wrong.

They also know that Jews don't do that sort of thing. They know that they can get away with anti-semitism because Jews are civilized people. Hell, the entire world knows that, even as they condemn Israel as the worst of the worst.

Sometimes, when I'm really pissed (like now), I wonder if Jews acted like muslims, would people think twice before attacking us. Would fear of Jewish riots make the MSM and the UN more respectful. Would threats of "behead those who insult Judiasm" scare the world into treating us better? Maybe, maybe not, but the point is that it doesn't matter because that isn't the way we do things. The Torah is not the koran. It's message is one of love and life not hatred and death.

119 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:15:01pm

re: #102 savage_nation

Thanks, I needed a good laugh.

120 realwest  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:15:09pm

Huffa puffa, huffa puffa - geez, what's with Charles putting up so many threads so quickly here! An older man, huffa puffa, like me, can't really keep up.
Does anyone know if the prosecutors polled the jury on the on count that they did reach a verdict?
It might prove illuminating as to their deadlock on all the other counts.
This is, after all, a Seattle Jury and for all we know they thought since they did convict on one charge, the others were just not important!

121 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:15:30pm

re: #114 LoFlyer

Personally I have never understood the insanity defense plea. Doesn't matter to the victims whether you are sane or insane, they are still dead. The perpertrator should receive the same punishment, regardless of sanity.

Here here!

I completely agree.

122 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:15:51pm

re: #101 Intrepid

Folks, this guy Haq is insane. He is nuttier than a fruitcake.

Yes, he is guilty of killing those people, but he is indeed insane, legally and psychologically.

He is not a Jihadhii.

He is one who is probably picking flies off the wall to eat, he is that crazy.

First thought: Wonder if it makes his victims and thier families feel any better.

Second thought: I bet he did a great job on his TPS reports.

123 Syrah  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:15:59pm

re: #116 Cognito

If it's true that he's insane -- literally, clinically, chemically insane -- it does matter.

The diagnosis of "Insane" has lost a lot of credibility.

It is becoming more and more difficult to accept it as an excuse.

124 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:16:02pm

re: #97 Syrah

I'm in Portland, like Seattle only worse.

125 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:16:23pm

re: #123 Syrah

The diagnosis of "Insane" has lost a lot of credibility.

It is becoming more and more difficult to accept it as an excuse.

Yes. That's why I said, "if it's true that..."

126 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:16:42pm

re: #110 solomonpanting

I've been selected (not elected) for two weeks of Federal Jury service next month.

HA! So you'll know what it's like to be President Bush!

/Tinfoil hat off.

127 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:16:45pm

re: #101 Intrepid

Folks, this guy Haq is insane. He is nuttier than a fruitcake.

Yes, he is guilty of killing those people, but he is indeed insane, legally and psychologically.

He is not a Jihadhii.

He is one who is probably picking flies off the wall to eat, he is that crazy.

A Palestinian shooting people, with premeditation, while screaming “Death to the Jews!”, wonder how that idea got into his head?

/nope, not a jihadi, nothing to see here, case closed, move along

128 Render  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:17:34pm

Is Naveed Haq currently walking around free in the Seattle area?

Can that jury and judge be investigated for corruption?

Clearly something is very wrong.

NO
EXCUSES,
R

129 savage_nation[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:17:49pm
130 realwest  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:18:02pm

re: #120 realwestPIMF not guilty on one charge.
Anyway, did the prosecutors poll the jury? Anyone know?

131 Sharmuta  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:18:08pm

re: #101 Intrepid

How do you know that?

132 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:18:52pm

re: #116 Cognito

If it's true that he's insane -- literally, clinically, chemically insane -- it does matter.

murder in and of itself,it could be argued,IS an act of insanity...waddaya do now? Slap on the wrist mental incarceration,no civil retribution,no deterrent value in the punishment..fuck'em,you kill you go away to a pen or you die..forgive my harshness,but I live in the real world with real consequences for real actions..

133 Neo Con since 9-11  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:19:15pm

re: #101 Intrepid

Folks, this guy Haq is insane. He is nuttier than a fruitcake.

Yes, he is guilty of killing those people, but he is indeed insane, legally and psychologically.

He is not a Jihadhii.

He is one who is probably picking flies off the wall to eat, he is that crazy.

Banging your head on the floor 5 times a day and listening to hate filled preachers is bound to cause some brain damage but he inflicted that damage on himself so I don't count that as insanity.

134 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:19:33pm

re: #128 Render

Is Naveed Haq currently walking around free in the Seattle area?

No.

135 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:19:54pm

Sometimes, the reasons behind the crime just dont matter. This guy walked in and shot 6 innocent women, killing 1 of them. I could care less whether he was a jihadi or imagined they were beaming evil thoughts into his brain or he was too stupid to realize they could die or whatever BS excuse the defense tried. The bastard deserves to die screaming.

136 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:20:05pm

re: #130 realwest

PIMF not guilty on one charge.
Anyway, did the prosecutors poll the jury? Anyone know?

That's only in capital punishment cases.

137 Intrepid  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:20:12pm

re: #106 Charles

And that makes him different from any other jihadi murderer who slaughters Jews... how, exactly?

Because our system of justice allows for nutbags who are considered "insane", or "of diminished capacity" under law to be considered not guilty (but they should go immediately to a mental health facility!)

Not every killer of Jews is a jihadhii!

Sometimes, they're just nutsos!

138 Mich-again  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:20:28pm

re: #116 Cognito

If it's true that he's insane -- literally, clinically, chemically insane -- it does matter.

To be innocent by reason of insanity for committing a premeditated crime, you have to demonstrate that the perp was insane before the crime was actually committed.

139 Syrah  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:20:30pm

re: #124 Killgore Trout

I'm in Portland, like Seattle only worse.

I would agree.

Portland is worse. Not just because of the climate.

If you want gray cloudy rainy but pleasant, La Push could be a paradise for you.

One of the rainiest places on the planet.

140 Noam Sayin'  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:20:39pm

re: #134 Cognito

No.

Where is he imprisoned?

141 Bacchus's daddy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:20:48pm

re: #116 Cognito

If it's true that he's insane -- literally, clinically, chemically insane -- it does matter.

You're right that it does matter; but the foul proscriptions of Islam can produce many of the same outward signs/ symptoms that chemical-imbalance insanity produces. Also, although I doubt it was the case here, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Al-Qaeda training/ training manuals have recognized this "nuance" of our legal system. You know, another instance of using our compassion for those that are "afflicted" by one thing or another, into a despicable weapon against us.

142 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:20:50pm

re: #136 Bob in Breckenridge

That's only in capital punishment cases.

When the verdict is guilty.

143 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:20:54pm

re: #115 MandyManners

So he was "stable" enough to plan this out over a period of time in a way to avoid detection so that he could carry out his plans. He knew right from wrong; he knew murder is against the law in this country. How insane could he be?

144 Racer X  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:21:09pm

It's just a shame this guy did not meet up with an armed security guard (like in Colorado ) during this crime.

145 Sharmuta  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:21:30pm

re: #137 Intrepid

Sorry- premeditation tells me he's not insane.

146 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:21:32pm

You all realize...now pay attention, dammit [whacks knuckles with ruler]...that's better...

You all realize that this is just one more exhibit in the case against the Clinton doctrine of treating Islamofacist terror like a criminal act and expecting our criminal justice (and even civil justice) system to protect us. Insanity or no, using the criminal courts to protect us from terrorism doesn't work by itself and as a primary policy.

Next thing you know they will start letting terrorists that set bombs free...you know, like those Weather Underground people...

Whadda mean "They're out"?

147 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:21:43pm

re: #116 Cognito

There's some grey area here. Wouldn't any suicide bomber be considered insane by some standards? Jose Padilla and Mohamed Atta were batshit insane. I think the Difference here is the influence of Islam. Sure, people do freak out and say Jesus told them to get naked and attack a meter maid with a samurai sword but how many have attended churches to do that? Islam does attract nutters but I'm not sure it can be used as a blanket excuse for Jihad.

148 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:21:44pm

re: #137 Intrepid

He may be nuts but, HE PLANNED IT AND HE HID OUT IN THE LOBBY TO PREVENT DETECTION. Hiding shows that he knew what he was about to do was wrong.

149 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:22:12pm

re: #132 joecitizen

murder in and of itself,it could be argued,IS an act of insanity...waddaya do now? Slap on the wrist mental incarceration,no civil retribution,no deterrent value in the punishment..fuck'em,you kill you go away to a pen or you die..forgive my harshness,but I live in the real world with real consequences for real actions..

Right-thinking people haven't killed the mentally incapable since the Dark Ages.

That's so... seventh century. Not to put too fine a point on it.

(For posterity, and my fans: I have no idea whether this Seattle fellow actually is insane. We're talking purely hypothetically here.)

150 Carridine  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:22:55pm

re: #10 brainwizard73

No one wants to admit to themselves that someone could do things like this in the name of religion...someone always wants to say "it can't happen", but it does. Every century. Apparently we are not studying our history...

That, Wizard, and:

"I can't BELIEVE it! I just can't BELIEVE it could happen! I just can't BELIEVE he could do that to ordinary people... who happen to be Jews..."
151 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:23:12pm

re: #143 reine.de.tout

So he was "stable" enough to plan this out over a period of time in a way to avoid detection so that he could carry out his plans. He knew right from wrong; he knew murder is against the law in this country. How insane could he be?

Bi-polars with med issues can be flaming loons but, he knew what he was doing.

152 Sharmuta  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:23:13pm

re: #149 Cognito

Right-thinking people haven't killed the mentally incapable since the Dark Ages.

So all the nazis were insane?

153 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:23:37pm

re: #149 Cognito

Right-thinking people haven't killed the mentally incapable since the Dark Ages.

That's so... seventh century. Not to put too fine a point on it.

(For posterity, and my fans: I have no idea whether this Seattle fellow actually is insane. We're talking purely hypothetically here.)


and,of course,that's why I added the caveat of 'going to a pen' or penitentiary..

154 savage_nation[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:23:40pm
155 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:23:42pm

re: #139 Syrah

I'm working on relocating to the southern Oregon coast. Very cool, grey and dreary. I'll love it there.

156 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:23:43pm

re: #148 MandyManners

He may be nuts but, HE PLANNED IT AND HE HID OUT IN THE LOBBY TO PREVENT DETECTION. Hiding shows that he knew what he was about to do was wrong.

Alright, quit using common sense...

/Geez.

157 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:24:16pm

Seattle doesn't have a jury pool, they have a kiddie pool. Of course, even a child can see the islamic freak is a cold-blooded killer.

158 Racer X  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:24:33pm

re: #148 MandyManners

He may be nuts but, HE PLANNED IT AND HE HID OUT IN THE LOBBY TO PREVENT DETECTION. Hiding shows that he knew what he was about to do was wrong.

Bingo!

If he didn't know it was wrong why did he hide?

159 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:24:39pm

re: #156 Bob in Breckenridge

Alright, quit using common sense...

/Geez.

It sneaks up on me at times.

160 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:25:02pm

re: #158 Racer X

Bingo!

If he didn't know it was wrong why did he hide?

That's the key for me.

161 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:25:12pm

re: #128 Render

Is Naveed Haq currently walking around free in the Seattle area?

I sincerely doubt that. I'd guess he'd be rearrested and retried on the mistrial counts.

/he was unbelievably, only acquitted on one count of many

162 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:25:13pm

re: #150 Carridine

I bet there were a few of the jurors that just had to believe that this guy was nuts and that evil in the world only existed in Dick Cheney's mind.

To make the connection...thier heads would have exploded.

163 realwest  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:25:26pm

re: #101 Intrepid
and
re: #116 Cognito

Whether or not he was legally insane is a decision usually made (at least in NYS courts) before the defendant goes to trial, as "legally insane" requires that the person be unable to aid in his own defense.
The judge here declared a mistrial. Apparently he didn't believe that THIS jury could ever reach a verdict on the remaining charges.
That means the prosecutors can in fact bring him back on the charges on which the jury reached no verdict. It's too late for him to declare "legally insane" as a defense to the charges.
Something is VERY SERIOUSLY WRONG with this case; all I can guess at is that the prosecutors felt that they had a slam dunk case (see, e.g., the California criminal trials of O.J. and the LA Cops who beat the crap out of Rodney King) and didn't prepare or present their case well enough, due to that overconfidence.

164 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:25:34pm

re: #152 Sharmuta

So all the nazis were insane?

I'd like to think so.

165 MellyMel  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:25:42pm

Unfortunately, I am not surprised at this. When called for jury duty, I basically had to swear I had no opinion on -- well-- pretty much anything. My ability to be impartial meant nothing.

I spoke with several people who had very strong feelings one way or another and some who could barely speak English.

Honest to God, they were picked and I was sent home. I had the audacity to admit I had HEARD about the case of the woman who burned herself with a McD's coffee but didn't really know anything more about it.

/I lost my faith in the justice system that day. No shit.

166 LoFlyer  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:25:52pm

We had an interesting case at my employer about eight years ago. The new Sheriff-elect, Derwin Brown had announced he was "going to clean house" in the corrupt out-going Sidney Dorsey's Sheriffs department. Sid arranged to have his buddies assassinate Brown just days before he was take office. After six months the police finally figured out what was going on and arrested the perpetrators. The two hit men were exonerated in the local court, seems the jury just could not convict with overwhelming evidence because Dorsey had not been brought to trial. They walked. Meanwhile charges were brought against Dorsey and his lawyers asked the trial be moved from the county because of the publicity. Bad move. My ex-wife was involved in the case, and she explained it to me. "folks down their(south Georgia) don't look at things like we do up here. To them its all black or white, no shades of grey. They found Dorsey guilty of murder and sentenced him to life in prison without parole. If he had been tried in DeKalb County, he would have walked, just like his trigger-men.

167 Charles  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:25:53pm

re: #137 Intrepid

Because our system of justice allows for nutbags who are considered "insane", or "of diminished capacity" under law to be considered not guilty (but they should go immediately to a mental health facility!)

Not every killer of Jews is a jihadhii!

Sometimes, they're just nutsos!

Unless you're a psychiatrist and you examined Naveed Haq, you have no more idea of whether he's actually "insane" than I do. You're accepting what the media have told you, despite the fact that he planned the killings carefully and was very clearly motivated by hatred for Jews and anger over the Lebanon War.

His motivation and method of murder was absolutely identical to countless other jihadi murderers. He was no more insane than any other "holy warrior."

168 Carridine  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:26:00pm

re: #162 brainwizard73
Concur your analysis...

/siiiiigh

169 x-ray  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:26:16pm

Not a lawyer but there is a great difference between the meaning of the word "insane" in common parlance and "legally Insane" used in trials.

The ability to plan and recognize that what you are doing will get you in trouble kicks one out of the Legally insane category IIRC.

The article shows he both planned and recognized the risk of getting caught.

170 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:26:19pm

re: #158 Racer X

Bingo!

If he didn't know it was wrong why did he hide?

He must have been scared by all those Jewish women.

171 Sharmuta  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:26:21pm

re: #164 Bob in Breckenridge

Deluded isn't the same as insane, though.

172 pat  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:26:42pm

The verdict is insanity. When Jews and the Bahai die, he may be mad. if he killed a white person it is understandable. I wonder if the prosecutor pointed out that the victims voted Democrat would result in a conviction.

173 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:26:45pm

re: #159 MandyManners

It sneaks up on me at times.

Next time...DUCK!

/Your average Barack Obama supporter...

174 Mich-again  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:26:52pm

re: #149 Cognito

(For posterity, and my fans: I have no idea whether this Seattle fellow actually is insane. We're talking purely hypothetically here.)

Funny how you always seem to emerge from the depths to defend the indefensible with hypothetical bullshit like that.

175 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:27:01pm

re: #151 MandyManners

Bi-polars with med issues can be flaming loons but, he knew what he was doing.

exactly. And if he knew what he was doing - and knew that it was wrong - then he is not "insane" enough to be able to get away with this.

I thought the test for "not guilty by reason of insanity" wasn't whether or not a person was "stable" or "unstable", but it is whether or not they know right from wrong and are cognizant of the fact that what they are doing is wrong.

This guy planned this out, over a period of time, and figured out how to avoid detection - he knew this was wrong.

176 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:27:24pm

re: #152 Sharmuta

So all the nazis were insane?

Insanity will be the new "I'm going to rehab" excuse. Soon EVERYONE in Hollywood will be doing it...

Can't wait to see how long it takes to lock up Tom Cruise.

177 kynna  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:27:25pm

I can't believe how stupid our justice system has become. If someone goes into an Islamic Center (NOT a suggestion!) and does the same thing they'd get life on top of life. And all of us would suffer the pain of being branded hate criminals just for being Americans.

I guess it's okay to murder as long as you've chosen your victims with political correctness in mind. Sheesh.

178 razorbacker  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:27:47pm

re: #101 Intrepid

Folks, this guy Haq is insane. He is nuttier than a fruitcake.

Yes, he is guilty of killing those people, but he is indeed insane, legally and psychologically.

He is not a Jihadhii.

He is one who is probably picking flies off the wall to eat, he is that crazy.

I read once (probably Heinlien) that a murderer found insane should still be executed.

Because if he ever regained his senses the murderer would be so overcome with guilt that he would logically commit suicide.

But that was in a world of fiction.

179 Racer X  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:28:27pm

re: #160 MandyManners

That is the fatal flaw in liberal arguments for death row inmates. They always cry "well, he didn't know right from wrong". BULLSHIT! If you run, hide, lie about the crime, or try to evade the authorities, you know right from wrong!

180 Syrah  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:28:43pm

re: #155 Killgore Trout

I'm working on relocating to the southern Oregon coast. Very cool, grey and dreary. I'll love it there.

Sounds good.

Isn't that kind of climate a little rough on stringed instruments?

181 Intrepid  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:28:53pm

I'm a trial junkie - I'm used to stuff like this.

Juries are notoriously unpredictable, and often disappointing. But please don't read into it an anti-semitic message.

I watched a good part of the trial, and I don't know if I could have gotten past the whole "insanity" thing. And I'm a solid GUILTY for most perps.

182 Mad Mullah  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:28:59pm

Personally, I believe that all Jihadists are mentally not well in the head. I also believe that this particular Jihadist murderer should fry for his crime.

183 Carridine  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:29:13pm

re: #172 pat

"...if the prosecutor pointed out that the victims voted Democrat would result in a conviction?"


Yeah, y'gotta wonder!

/Thanks, Pat... :)

184 paradox42  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:29:16pm

This sonofabitch was totally sane. People who are truly mentally ill are incapable of planning what to have for dinner, much less mass murder, and I speak from personal experience on that. I'm sick of liberals using mental illness to make excuses for evil. Evil is not a mental illness, its a choice. Someone needs to hammer that into the skulls of these idiots, preferably with a real hammer.

185 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:29:17pm

Do we know if there were any muslims in the jury?

186 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:29:29pm

If this Seattle jury can't decide whether this guy is a cold blooded killer, then this Leftist/moral relativism way of thinking has gotten totally out of control.

These are the same people who faint at the sight of Barack H. Obama.
I'm telling ya...this is the decline of western civilization. Happening right before our eyes.

187 Neo Con since 9-11  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:30:17pm

re: #158 Racer X

Bingo!

If he didn't know it was wrong why did he hide?

For purely tactical reasons. I doubt he does believe he did anything wrong. He hid for the same reason my cat hides right before he jumps on a mouse. Hiding sometimes gives you an advantage when trying to kill more efficiently. I think this guy believes he was doing a good thing.

188 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:30:38pm

re: #174 Mich-again

Funny how you always seem to emerge from the depths to defend the indefensible with hypothetical bullshit like that.

I'm not defending anybody, homefry.

Like I said, I've got no idea whether Naveed Haq is insane. I tend to think not, as the only evidence in favor of that notion -- that I'm aware of -- is expert testimony. If he was well and truly crazy before the act in question, I'd expect plenty of tailings from his insanity.

189 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:31:00pm

There's competing views of how

exactly

legal insanity is defined.

/one of my favorite anecdotes from law school is that the perpetrator thinks the gun is a banana, that's insane

190 Timbre  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:31:11pm

At least 1st Lt. Andrew Grayson is acquitted in the Haditha Marine case. This "Naveed Haq" shoots six Jewish women yelling, "Death to the Jews!," and Seattle liberals feel he is mentally ill. Sometimes I wonder about American justice...

191 Carridine  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:31:17pm

re: #184 paradox42
Concur yr analysis: think Hannibal Lecter: SANE and uber-INTELLIGENT, and SERIOUSLY DANGEROUS!

192 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:31:25pm

re: #186 DesertSage

If this Seattle jury can't decide whether this guy is a cold blooded killer, then this Leftist/moral relativism way of thinking has gotten totally out of control.

These are the same people who faint at the sight of Barack H. Obama.
I'm telling ya...this is the decline of western civilization. Happening right before our eyes.

When reached for comment Michelle Obama had this to say, "You know, for the first time in my adult life, I am proud of a Seattle jury."

193 BignJames  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:31:29pm

I think Jeffrey Dahmer was nuts....but we still locked the sob up.

194 Bacchus's daddy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:31:30pm

Although I've had nothing to do with criminal law since law school, I think the "hiding" should have carried quite a bit of weight (probably more than it did). Implicit in the act of "hiding", if that is what he did, is the mental recognition of a reason to hide. Maybe the Seattle jurors were persuaded that he was playing a game of "hide-and-seek" with his imaginary friend.

195 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:31:49pm

re: #171 Sharmuta

Deluded isn't the same as insane, though.

Good point. Delusional and insane...The former understands but sees no problem, the latter cannot comprehend.

196 LoFlyer  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:32:37pm

Guys, I am checking out on this one, Good to see you Savage, catch y'all on the flip side!

197 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:32:42pm

re: #152 Sharmuta

So all the nazis were insane?

I said 'right-thinking.' And no, the Nazis weren't right-thinking.

Obviously.

198 savage_nation[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:32:43pm
199 Intrepid  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:32:58pm

re: #167 Charles

True, but I read details and watched on what used to be CTV - how else are we to know?

I'm not excusing this man - FAR BE IT FROM ME TO DO THIS!

200 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:33:32pm

Some good news:

From a CBS poll ... Key finding: "Twelve percent of Democrats say they will support McCain in the general election. That's higher than the 8 percent of Democrats who defected to President Bush in 2004. Nearly a quarter of Clinton supporters say they will back McCain instead of Obama in the general election."

(The same poll had McCain down 6% -- 48% Obama to 42%McCain with 6% undecided)

CBS polls usually oversample Dems

201 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:33:47pm

re: #188 Cognito

Homefry?

202 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:34:07pm

re: #201 MandyManners

Homefry?

Yes ma'am?

203 Noam Sayin'  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:34:17pm

re: #189 Killian Bundy

So, if I defend my home with a 9mm, .380 ACP "banana," I stand a better chance with the jury?

/

204 Neo Con since 9-11  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:34:51pm

re: #200 hermeneutics

Some good news:

From a CBS poll ... Key finding: "Twelve percent of Democrats say they will support McCain in the general election. That's higher than the 8 percent of Democrats who defected to President Bush in 2004. Nearly a quarter of Clinton supporters say they will back McCain instead of Obama in the general election."

(The same poll had McCain down 6% -- 48% Obama to 42%McCain with 6% undecided)

CBS polls usually oversample Dems

Because Republicans are normally at work when the pollster calls.

205 realwest  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:35:24pm

As Mark Twain once said (paraphrasing here)"The only problem with the American Criminal Justice system is that it requires a jury of people who never read newspapers, talk to their friends, relatives and neighbors, read books or think."

Today he'd no doubt add in TV, radio and blogs, but the point still remains.
And I STILL don't understand, as a lawyer, how the jury could acquit him on one charge but not reach a verdict on the other charges, if, in fact, they believed he was legally insane on the count on which they acquited him.
Washington State could benefit greatly by New York State's example; the issue of "insanity" is dealt with before a trial commences and is usually NOT left to juries to decide, but rather the judge after both prosecution and defense experts have had their say.

206 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:35:30pm

re: #134 Cognito

No.

He's on bail, and has been for some time. Prove me wrong.

Insanity isn't a valid defense for premeditated murder, but the point here is that the jury didn't find him innocent or guilty or insane.

They deadlocked.

207 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:36:10pm

re: #198 savage_nation

Actually, I'd bet dollars to donuts that the jury was secretly happy that Jews were killed. How else can you come up with a verdict like that?

That might be a little harsh. It is possible for people to be so stupid that they get lost in this stuff--it isn't like dealing with issues of legal insanity is as easy as being a community organizer.

All I am saying is that it is at least possible that the jurors just messed up not due to any clear bias, but just that they weren't that bright and didn't get what was going on.

[ducks behind bullet proof glass]

208 solomonpanting  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:36:12pm

Haq told the forensic psychologist he wanted to "commit suicide by cop", intending to take hostages, wait for the police to show up and go out in a blaze of gunfire.

209 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:36:29pm

re: #204 Neo Con since 9-11

Because Republicans are normally at work when the pollster calls.

Or hung up on if they admit it...

210 Racer X  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:36:34pm

re: #203 Noam Sayin'

LOL!

"I am not sure what happened officer. I started to peel this here banana, when the guy who was breaking into my house just seemed to explode right before my eyes. Weird as hell. I still don't understand it".

211 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:36:42pm

re: #206 really grumpy big dog Johnson

He's on bail, and has been for some time. Prove me wrong.

Insanity isn't a valid defense for premeditated murder, but the point here is that the jury didn't find him innocent or guilty or insane.

They deadlocked.

Welp. They led him from the courtroom in handcuffs. I don't think they do that to free men, as far as I know.

212 paradox42  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:37:04pm

re: #197 Cognito

And no, the Nazis weren't right-thinking.

Oh yes they were. They were sane and perfectly aware of what they were doing. Do you have any idea how much planing went into the Holocaust. They kept a paper trail of everything, they passed laws to allow it. They used their knowledge of engineering and science to build death factories. The Holocaust was architected by intelligent, rational, sane, and utterly evil men. Hitler may have been mad, but Eichman, Himmel, Mengele, Heydrich, and Goering were plenty sane. They knew what they were doing was wrong. They just didn't think they'd get caught.

213 Malleus Dei  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:37:22pm

The penalty for murder by reason of insanity should be death by firing squad.

Why not? We shoot mad dogs for far less reason. Why not insane murderers as well?

214 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:37:31pm

re: #200 hermeneutics

Some good news:

From a CBS poll ... Key finding: "Twelve percent of Democrats say they will support McCain in the general election. That's higher than the 8 percent of Democrats who defected to President Bush in 2004. Nearly a quarter of Clinton supporters say they will back McCain instead of Obama in the general election."

(The same poll had McCain down 6% -- 48% Obama to 42%McCain with 6% undecided)

CBS polls usually oversample Dems

Rumor has it Bill Clinton did/does, too...funny that never came up during the campaign.

215 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:37:31pm

re: #106 Charles

And that makes him different from any other jihadi murderer who slaughters Jews... how, exactly?

He just proves that it is something ya gotta be crazy to do. No sane person would strap on explosives and do what they do. Statistics show that 50% of all people are below average, and voter statistics bear it out.

216 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:37:52pm

re: #186 DesertSage

If this Seattle jury can't decide whether this guy is a cold blooded killer, then this Leftist/moral relativism way of thinking has gotten totally out of control.

These are the same people who faint at the sight of Barack H. Obama.
I'm telling ya...this is the decline of western civilization. Happening right before our eyes.


if so,it's gonna have to decline with my cold,dead fingers clinging to it..

217 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:37:52pm

re: #212 paradox42

Oh yes they were. They were sane and perfectly aware of what they were doing. Do you have any idea how much planing went into the Holocaust. They kept a paper trail of everything, they passed laws to allow it. They used their knowledge of engineering and science to build death factories. The Holocaust was architected by intelligent, rational, sane, and utterly evil men. Hitler may have been mad, but Eichman, Himmel, Mengele, Heydrich, and Goering were plenty sane. They knew what they were doing was wrong. They just didn't think they'd get caught.

Eh?

You're arguing when I say that Nazis weren't right-thinking folks?

Really?

218 savage_nation[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:37:55pm
219 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:38:00pm

re: #180 Syrah

It's not really tough on the instruments but it's tough on tools. Salt air is a bitch on steel.

220 Racer X  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:38:20pm

re: #206 really grumpy big dog Johnson

He's on bail, and has been for some time.


Wait a minute. You're saying this nutjob is walking the streets of Seattle?

221 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:38:50pm

re: #220 Racer X

Wait a minute. You're saying this nutjob is walking the streets of Seattle?

Yeah, I'd like to see proof of that myself, since that seems to be the order of the day.

222 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:39:02pm

re: #213 Malleus Dei

The penalty for murder by reason of insanity should be death by firing squad.

Why not? We shoot mad dogs for far less reason. Why not insane murderers as well?

Because they're humans.

223 nadnerb  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:39:19pm

So does this scumbag wait in jail for a retrial or does he get turned loose to do it again?

224 realwest  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:39:23pm

re: #206 really grumpy big dog Johnson Um, no they did acquit him of one charge: "The jurors reached a partial verdict on only one of the 15 counts against Haq, finding him not guilty of attempted first-degree murder of one of the women."

225 MellyMel  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:39:25pm

The bottom line for me is:

If you are sane enough to watch your own ass (plan it out and/or over up your crime), you have at least enough mentality to care about someone elses. Having compassion is a whole different issue.

226 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:39:30pm

re: #222 MandyManners

Because they're humans.

Bravo.

227 paradox42  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:39:41pm

re: #217 Cognito

I'm saying the Nazi's were sane. Evil beyond belief, but sane. The Holocaust was way too premeditated to be the act of raving lunatics. That is what makes it so sick.

228 Noam Sayin'  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:39:41pm

re: #210 Racer X

Would it be advisable to try to take a bite from the "banana," even though its semi-auto?

229 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:39:49pm

re: #163 realwest

I don't know what definition of legal insanity they use out there but, generally the defendant can't assist in his defense, has little or no grip on reality, and, at the time, didn't know he was committing the crime he was committing.

/sort of like Colin Ferguson

230 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:39:52pm

re: #212 paradox42

Himmler, not Himmel. And they never worried about getting caught because they NEVER thought they'd lose.

231 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:39:57pm

re: #204 Neo Con since 9-11

Because Republicans are normally at work when the pollster calls.

Yes, and because they poll registered, not likely voters.

The breakdown was 40-33-27 (D-I-R). Have the Reps really slipped that far behind?

232 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:40:38pm

re: #227 paradox42

I'm saying the Nazi's were sane. Evil beyond belief, but sane. The Holocaust was way too premeditated to be the act of raving lunatics. That is what makes it so sick.

Yeah. Me too.

I guess we have different definitions for 'right-thinking.'

233 pat  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:40:40pm

NYNana, here?

234 Neo Con since 9-11  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:41:02pm

re: #213 Malleus Dei

The penalty for murder by reason of insanity should be death by firing squad.

Why not? We shoot mad dogs for far less reason. Why not insane murderers as well?

Because we are obligated to treat humans better than other animals. This is the same kind of thinking behind the PETA ads equating the Holocaust with the slaughter of chickens

235 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:41:03pm

re: #213 Malleus Dei

The penalty for murder by reason of insanity should be death by firing squad.

Why not? We shoot mad dogs for far less reason. Why not insane murderers as well?

The verdict should be guilty but insane. After that stick them in a hospital and drive them to suicide.

236 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:41:18pm

re: #205 realwest

As Mark Twain once said (paraphrasing here)"The only problem with the American Criminal Justice system is that it requires a jury of people who never read newspapers, talk to their friends, relatives and neighbors, read books or think."

Today he'd no doubt add in TV, radio and blogs, but the point still remains.
And I STILL don't understand, as a lawyer, how the jury could acquit him on one charge but not reach a verdict on the other charges, if, in fact, they believed he was legally insane on the count on which they acquited him.
Washington State could benefit greatly by New York State's example; the issue of "insanity" is dealt with before a trial commences and is usually NOT left to juries to decide, but rather the judge after both prosecution and defense experts have had their say.

realwest, if the murder victims wouldn't have been Jewish, the jurors would have at least found him guilty, but insane.

Because the murder victims were Jewish, he probbly won't be charged of murder, he'll probably be sent to a country club mental hospital for a few years, he'll tell a "doctor" he's now OK, and he'll be back out on the street.

Oh, Justice will come to him someday, but for now, the families of the murder victims will have to accept that because their murdered loved ones were Jewish, the American justice system isn't equal for them.

Justice is only blind, unless you're a Jew.

237 savage_nation[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:41:29pm
238 BignJames  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:41:53pm

re: #232 Cognito


Right thinking = someone who agrees w/you

239 Racer X  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:41:57pm

re: #228 Noam Sayin'

Would it be advisable to try to take a bite from the "banana," even though its semi-auto?

No, but It would be right neighborly to offer a bite to an unwanted guest in your home.

;-)

240 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:42:05pm

OT:

Have I heard something like this before? ...

Obama sez:

"This isn’t the Tony Rezko I knew."

The media collectively shrug their shoulders and say:

"Gosh, Barack. You're right. This isn't the Tony that we knew, either."

{group hug}


/change this

241 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:42:06pm

re: #218 savage_nation

I just cant wrap my brain around this. The guy wacks a bunch of people and the jury cant find any wrongdoing? shit!

The jury didn't acquit him, they couldn't determine if he was guilty of murder (and likely a whole host of other charges) or whether he was criminally insane (and therefore likely to be confined to a secure mental institution until called up for the Obama cabinet). I would imagine that all the jurors would have likely found that he committed the crimes, but that they couldn't agree on whether his culpability was reduced due to his mental capacity and/or insanity.

I don't like it, but hopefully the retrial will get him.

242 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:42:33pm

re: #237 savage_nation

They turned in their membership card to the human race when they committed murder. Sorry

Like I said, killing the mentally incapable is something that smacks of -- ahem -- seventh century thinking.

243 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:42:50pm

re: #203 Noam Sayin'

So, if I defend my home with a 9mm, .380 ACP "banana," I stand a better chance with the jury?

/you'll also need to fool the psychiatrists for both sides or hire the "better" one for your side

244 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:43:04pm

re: #241 brainwizard73

The jury didn't acquit him, they couldn't determine if he was guilty of murder (and likely a whole host of other charges) or whether he was criminally insane (and therefore likely to be confined to a secure mental institution until called up for the Obama cabinet). I would imagine that all the jurors would have likely found that he committed the crimes, but that they couldn't agree on whether his culpability was reduced due to his mental capacity and/or insanity.

I don't like it, but hopefully the retrial will get him.

Tool alert, quoting myself.

I do see there was one charge in which he got an acquittal. Don't know why...

245 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:43:25pm

re: #216 joecitizen

if so,it's gonna have to decline with my cold,dead fingers clinging to it..

Ah, hell...they'll send you to prison or a re-education camp long before your fingers will be dead and cold.

Repeat after me:
must. think. like. an. Obamatron. to. stay. out. of. prison.

246 Neo Con since 9-11  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:44:28pm

re: #231 hermeneutics

Yes, and because they poll registered, not likely voters.

The breakdown was 40-33-27 (D-I-R). Have the Reps really slipped that far behind?

I think those high registered D's and low registered R numbers could be part of operation chaos

247 razorbacker  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:44:31pm

I wonder what Haq's lawyers are doing right now. After a nonverdict like this, do they go out and celebrate? Shake their heads sadly? Breathe a mighty sigh of relief? Go home, kiss their kids and say 'Guess what Daddy managed to do today?'

I wonder.

248 Inquisitive  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:44:32pm

re: #205 realwest

As Mark Twain once said (paraphrasing here)"The only problem with the American Criminal Justice system is that it requires a jury of people who never read newspapers, talk to their friends, relatives and neighbors, read books or think."

Today he'd no doubt add in TV, radio and blogs, but the point still remains.
And I STILL don't understand, as a lawyer, how the jury could acquit him on one charge but not reach a verdict on the other charges, if, in fact, they believed he was legally insane on the count on which they acquited him.Washington State could benefit greatly by New York State's example; the issue of "insanity" is dealt with before a trial commences and is usually NOT left to juries to decide, but rather the judge after both prosecution and defense experts have had their say.

"In written questions to the judge, the jurors asked for further clarification of the legal definition of insanity. Kallas declined to help them, saying she could not answer beyond what was provided in their instruction"

I don't think they acquitted him due to insanity if they were still asking for a clarification of the legal definition of insanity

249 Intrepid  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:44:33pm

Folks, if you're really pissed, then blame the prosecutors in Seattle for messing up this case.

If Haq is a jihadhi, then why did they go after him as a simple murderer?

He should have been tossed over to the feds!

250 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:44:34pm

re: #240 really grumpy big dog Johnson

OT:

Have I heard something like this before? ...

Obama sez:

{group hug}


/change this

Another blog had this line (paraphrasing):

From exactly which turnip truck did Barack Obama just fall?

251 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:45:00pm

re: #237 savage_nation

They turned in their membership card to the human race when they committed murder. Sorry

savage- Not if they did not understand what they did. Should they ever be free? No.

252 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:45:05pm

re: #218 savage_nation

I just cant wrap my brain around this. The guy wacks a bunch of people and the jury cant find any wrongdoing? shit!

The victims were Jewish.

Show me a moonbat who doesn't support the terror inflicted on Israel on a daily basis.

253 Syrah  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:45:05pm

re: #204 Neo Con since 9-11

Because Republicans are normally at work when the pollster calls.

Political polling is usually done in a very short space of time, usually in a one or two day period.

When the polling is done over a week, or better yet, over a month, it becomes much more reliable.

Polling is becoming more difficult as households abandon landlines for cell-phones. Polling people by calling them on their cell-phone is still in its infancy, but will become more prevalent over time. Cell-phone polls are much more difficult to conduct, the response rates are very low and the results are difficult to weight. They should still be considered experimental.

I would expect there to be a lot of volatility in this election cycles polling numbers with all of the big polling houses.

Keep an eye on the "Margins of Error" that are reported. We can expect to see this number rise over the next couple of years.

254 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:45:11pm

re: #233 pat

NYNana, here?

no,in new york.

255 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:45:51pm

re: #238 BignJames

Right thinking = someone who agrees w/you

In a sense, I suppose. According to one dictionary it's someone who has "acceptably proper or correct convictions, beliefs, etc."

I'd say the Nazis didn't have those.

This has got to be the goofiest LGF tangent I've ever witnessed, honestly.

256 solomonpanting  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:46:07pm

re: #244 brainwizard73

I do see there was one charge in which he got an acquittal. Don't know why...

He was acquitted on the charge of first degree attemped murder for the first woman he shot.

257 Charles  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:46:12pm

re: #247 razorbacker

I wonder what Haq's lawyers are doing right now. After a nonverdict like this, do they go out and celebrate? Shake their heads sadly? Breathe a mighty sigh of relief? Go home, kiss their kids and say 'Guess what Daddy managed to do today?'

I wonder.

From the article:

While presenting his insanity defense, Haq's attorneys said he posed a risk to society and should instead be locked in a state mental hospital for the rest of his life.

Even his own lawyers wanted him locked away for life. But the jury said no.

258 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:46:13pm

re: #240 really grumpy big dog Johnson

OT:

Have I heard something like this before? ...

Obama sez:

{group hug}


/change this


Since Barack doesn't appear to know any of his bobos, may we conclude he has been giving soaring oratory for so long and so loud he never thought to listen to his "friends"?

259 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:46:31pm

re: #237 savage_nation

They turned in their membership card to the human race when they committed murder. Sorry

The penalty for any murder should be death, the only optionshould be the method. for some, crucifiction is too good. Same goes for child rapists.

260 Noam Sayin'  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:46:37pm

re: #243 Killian Bundy

/you'll also need to fool the psychiatrists for both sides or hire the "better" one for your side

/I'm going to need a "bunch" more Walther bananas, and maybe get one of those "banana" hangers they sell at Big, Bang and Beyond.

G'night, folks. Keep Cog's back against the wall.

I recommend staples.

261 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:46:52pm

re: #246 Neo Con since 9-11

I think those high registered D's and low registered R numbers could be part of operation chaos

Oh, that's very interesting. I'm still looking at the poll and I just noticed, too, that the last CBS poll had Obama 11% higher than McCain. Trending McCain!

Now, if we could pin Rezko to Obama's house (which is true), and if the media was responsible enough to show Obama in a true light, his numbers should go down even further.

262 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:46:55pm

re: #237 savage_nation

They turned in their membership card to the human race when they committed murder. Sorry


I agree 100%.

Prison overcrowding would drop 50% immediatly.

263 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:46:56pm

re: #252 republic

The victims were Jewish.

Show me a moonbat who doesn't support the terror inflicted on Israel on a daily basis.

The fact that the victims were Jewish is irrelevant.

264 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:48:05pm

re: #253 Syrah

May 30 through June 3 (five days)
MOE of 3%

265 pat  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:48:13pm

re: #257 Charles

No, I think he should hang at that Lawyers house for a long weekend. Meet the Fam.

266 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:48:34pm

re: #245 DesertSage

Ah, hell...they'll send you to prison or a re-education camp long before your fingers will be dead and cold.

Repeat after me:
must. think. like. an. Obamatron. to. stay. out. of. prison.


or,take to the hills and ride to the sound of the guns? I'm just sayin'...

267 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:48:37pm

re: #247 razorbacker

I wonder what Haq's lawyers are doing right now. After a nonverdict like this, do they go out and celebrate? Shake their heads sadly? Breathe a mighty sigh of relief? Go home, kiss their kids and say 'Guess what Daddy managed to do today?'

I wonder.

I think there's a pretty good chance that they are Israel haters.

268 realwest  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:48:52pm

re: #229 Killian Bundy Yeah, or the Son of Sam (but he got convicted anyway, the judge not finding it "credible" that his dog told him to kill those people).

And that's what perlexes me about this whole case.
If he really was "legally insane" again, at the risk of being redundant, that decision in at least New York State, is usually made before the trial before the jury begins, as IF the defendant WAS legally insane, he would be unable to assist his defense lawyers in any significant way.
How the hell did Washington State reach the brilliant idea that the issue of his legal sanity should be left up to a jury?

269 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:49:11pm

re: #263 Bob in Breckenridge

The fact that the victims were Jewish is irrelevant.

Obviously not.

270 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:49:13pm

Wow.

This has been one fascinating and insightful discussion.

Apparently some of you guys wouldn't mind rolling back at least some laws to the seventh century.

271 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:49:18pm

re: #242 Cognito

Like I said, killing the mentally incapable is something that smacks of -- ahem -- seventh century thinking.

The term 'mentally incapable' means something entirely different today than it did in the seventh century.
Today, with this lefty moral relativism, everyone who commits a crime is "mentally incapable" in one way or another. That's the problem with moral relativism, there's no right and wrong.....everything is relative.

272 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:49:24pm

re: #242 Cognito

Like I said, killing the mentally incapable is something that smacks of -- ahem -- seventh century thinking.

That's what the Nazis did, too.

273 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:49:35pm

re: #211 Cognito

Welp. They led him from the courtroom in handcuffs. I don't think they do that to free men, as far as I know.

And how do you know that? Link? I asked you to prove me wrong, not make a statement to the contrary. You made the original assertion, so back it up.

274 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:49:46pm

re: #269 republic

Obviously not.

Not? Why not?

275 paradox42  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:49:57pm

re: #265 pat

No, I think he should hang at that Lawyers house for a long weekend. Meet the Fam.

As long as he hangs, I'm not picky about location.

276 Racer X  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:50:49pm

I have a real hard time believing that the jury is intent on letting this guy go just because the victims were Jews.

277 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:50:50pm

re: #271 DesertSage

The term 'mentally incapable' means something entirely different today than it did in the seventh century.
Today, with this lefty moral relativism, everyone who commits a crime is "mentally incapable" in one way or another. That's the problem with moral relativism, there's no right and wrong.....everything is relative.

Forget all that. I'm talking about true mental incapacity, in the common sense way.

278 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:50:55pm

OT---

All the articles (like the one in the WaPo) about how the world thinks that Barack Obama's milestone is somehow good for them because we (America/ns) will be more "tolerant" of "people who are different than us.

Let me be clear: You can be different all you want...but when you strap on a vest of explosives and try to kill me, my family or my countrymen, nothing you say or do will make me tolerant of you, your ideology or your supporters.

279 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:50:57pm

re: #270 Cognito

Wow.

This has been one fascinating and insightful discussion.

Apparently some of you guys wouldn't mind rolling back at least some laws to the seventh century.

Cognito, they execute murders often, currently, in many states.

280 Syrah  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:51:10pm

re: #264 hermeneutics

I would guess that they are under reporting their MOE. The whole cell-phone issue is a real problem, especially with younger households.

281 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:51:11pm

re: #269 republic

Obviously not.

I'm specifically talking about if the guy is insane.

282 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:51:42pm

re: #266 joecitizen

or,take to the hills and ride to the sound of the guns? I'm just sayin'...

I'm with you buddy.

283 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:52:47pm

re: #248 Inquisitive

they were still asking for a clarification of the legal definition of insanity

Both sides and the judge agree on the jury instructions before the trial. The judge instructs the jury at the end of the trial.

/the jury has to figure it out from the instructions they were given

284 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:52:49pm

re: #258 brainwizard73

Since Barack doesn't appear to know any of his bobos, may we conclude he has been giving soaring oratory for so long and so loud he never thought to listen to his "friends"?

Rezko swung some sort of sweetheart real estate deal for Obama in 2005, while he was under indictment.

The media will never chase this one down. Screws up the coronation.

285 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:52:59pm

re: #269 republic

Did you read all my previous posts regarding this topic?

286 razorbacker  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:53:01pm

re: #267 republic

I think there's a pretty good chance that they are Israel haters.

I don't know. I've asked my godson if he's every had problems representing someone he believes guilty.

He got quiet. Took another drink of beer. And asked to change the subject.

It's a duty to the law, he says. And sometimes it's hard to do your duty.

287 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:53:04pm

re: #280 Syrah

I don't know about underreporting the MOE ... could be true. I do find the cell phone issues fascinating, though. I was polled a few weeks ago on my cell phone.

CBS has one of the worst records anyway. I watch Rasm. and Survey USA. Lately, Gallup has been dreadful.

288 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:53:25pm

re: #274 Bob in Breckenridge

Not? Why not?

The man is not being punished for killing 6 human beings, his own words say that he planned it, and he said that he killed them because they were Jewish.

Period.

289 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:53:45pm

re: #282 DesertSage

Like I said earlier tonight, save room on the last chopper for me.

290 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:53:46pm

re: #273 really grumpy big dog Johnson

And how do you know that? Link? I asked you to prove me wrong, not make a statement to the contrary. You made the original assertion, so back it up.

Goober. You're the one who made the assertion that he's free on bail. Why don't you back that up?

Or do you just throw out random bits of fiction for fun?

While you think on it, enjoy the first sentence of the third paragraph here, and the last sentence here.

I look forward to your links, in response.

291 NY Nana  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:53:49pm

re: #27 DesertSage

It is bad here...Jewish blood is cheap. There have been a number of heinous hate crimes, and to get them labeled as 'hate'? And for some reason they seem to happen in the blue states.

/Just a coincidence I am sure.

292 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:53:50pm

re: #277 Cognito

Forget all that. I'm talking about true mental incapacity, in the common sense way.

You're going to try and get common sense from a Seattle jury?
Good luck with that.

293 Intrepid  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:54:38pm

And if this man Haq is mentally retarded? What say you?

(not saying he is, but if he is?)

294 realwest  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:54:49pm

re: #269 republic With all due respect, my friend, it is irrelevent if in fact the jury decided on the one count of which he was found not guilty, that he was indeed legally insane.
In theory, that self same jury would find a Jew innocent of going into a mosque or madrassa and killing muslims and screaming death to the Palestinians.
The issue of the legal sanity of a mass murderer should NEVER be left up to a jury to decide, because all they will hear are the Prosecution and Defense lawyers "experts" prattle on and on and on about what is or is not "legally sane".

295 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:54:51pm

re: #281 Bob in Breckenridge

I'm specifically talking about if the guy is insane.

You said the fact that the victims were Jewish was irrelevant, and I said, obviously not, meaning, it was relevant, otherwise he would have been found guilty.

296 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:55:33pm

re: #279 republic

Cognito, they execute murders often, currently, in many states.

I'm not talking about murderers. Obviously. I'm talking about the mentally incapable.

A number of people here have said they deserve capital punishment. Which is an astonishing thing. To the point of being bizarre, and certainly fodder for people who dislike LGF.

297 yenta-fada  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:55:37pm

If this isn't a clear act of domestic terrorism, I don't know what is. Do you really think that Jewish organizations in Seattle feel safe after this rampage? Who is going to pay for all of the extra protection they will require, especially now that people see that you can get away with murder with clueless juries and a biased system that thinks all assholes are victims who cannot be held responsible for their actions?
No Jewish person will be allowed to kill an attacking Muslim, even in self-defense without being pilloried. Jews have no appetite for winning Darwin awards.

298 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:55:41pm

re: #289 brainwizard73

Like I said earlier tonight, save room on the last chopper for me.

Joe and I are riding (I hope he meant motorcycle), but a chopper will work too.

299 razorbacker  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:55:44pm

I'm depressed.

I'm going to bed.

Tomorrow will be another day.

Likely full of the same old sh*t.

300 NY Nana  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:55:50pm

re: #270 Cognito

Wow.

This has been one fascinating and insightful discussion.

Apparently some of you guys wouldn't mind rolling back at least some laws to the seventh century.

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.

301 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:55:52pm

re: #284 really grumpy big dog Johnson

Rezko swung some sort of sweetheart real estate deal for Obama in 2005, while he was under indictment.

The media will never chase this one down. Screws up the coronation.

Right, knew that about the deal. Wouldn't you think that Rezko could make life really hard on Obama since that deal doesn't look good, and with a little more, it really could be a scandal waiting to happen?

Idea: Best story would be if HRC somehow manages to rescue the Dems if/when Obama melts down...That would be story...sell a lot of papers.

302 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:56:30pm

re: #299 razorbacker

Good night, Razor. Maybe we'll get some blockbuster news tomorrow that will make us smile. We can hope!

303 Bacchus's daddy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:56:37pm

re: #263 Bob in Breckenridge

The fact that the victims were Jewish is irrelevant.

I'd like to think that a crime victim being Jewish in a random crime of theft/ violence would be irrelevant, bus this case had some high political charge to it. Perhaps the victims being Jewish was less relevant than the defendant being an "oppressed" Muslim. I simply don't know, but I suspect the group identity of one/ or the other/ or both could have come into play. Our country is so very saturated with identity politics- when an atmosphere pervaded by identity politics empowers jurors of potentially moonbat politics, ugly things can happen.

304 solomonpanting  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:57:20pm

re: #50 solomonpanting

He should have been prosecuted for a hate crime.
//

Haq was charged with one count of aggravated first-degree murder for slaying employee Pamela Waechter; five counts of attempted first-degree murder for shooting five other women; one count of first-degree kidnapping; one count of unlawful imprisonment; one count of first-degree burglary; and six counts of violating the state's hate-crime law.

Link

305 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:57:23pm

re: #262 republic

I agree 100%.

Prison overcrowding would drop 50% immediatly.

Time for my soapbox. I oppose sentences longer then 20 years, and total prison time over 25 years. Anything beyond that is pointless. If the purpose of longer sentences is to protect the public, its pointless. Execute them instead, and guarantee that society is safe.
I would add rapists to the death list, also three peat offenders. They have chosen not to conform to society so society is better off without them.
Make prison harsh. prison food should be lousy tasting but nutricious enough to sustain them. No TV, no books, no pictures or posters. Allow them one religious manuscript, a bible, or the satanic verses, but only a text fromn a recognized religion.
Make them work. No work, no eat.
For minor offences, create work farms or factories. IBP could benefit from having a few lousy pick pockets rather then Messicons.
As far as the death sentence, only allow lethal injection for those who choose immediate execution, within 48 hours of conviction. For the rest, a Texas rope dance or what ever method suits the jury.

306 Syrah  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:57:30pm

re: #287 hermeneutics

I don't know about underreporting the MOE ... could be true. I do find the cell phone issues fascinating, though. I was polled a few weeks ago on my cell phone.

CBS has one of the worst records anyway. I watch Rasm. and Survey USA. Lately, Gallup has been dreadful.

You participated in a cellphone poll?

What was it about?

Do you recall what polling house it was through?

307 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:57:42pm

re: #291 NY Nana

It is bad here...Jewish blood is cheap. There have been a number of heinous hate crimes, and to get them labeled as 'hate'? And for some reason they seem to happen in the blue states.

/Just a coincidence I am sure.

A person throws a tomato against a mosque, and is charged with a hate crime, but a worthless scumbag who only deserves death, with premeditation, murders 6 Jews, and they don't even convict him of murder.

308 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:57:49pm

re: #298 DesertSage

Joe and I are riding (I hope he meant motorcycle), but a chopper will work too.

Aaaahhhh...didn't catch that nuance...yes, got it now...UH-60 me to a place reasonably resembling Valhalla.

309 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:58:23pm

re: #300 NY Nana

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.

I'm not talking about mere eye-for-eye. I'm talking about advocating for the execution of the mentally incapacitated.

That's astonishing.

310 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:58:38pm

re: #298 DesertSage

Joe and I are riding (I hope he meant motorcycle), but a chopper will work too.

chopper,horse,chopper..whatever it takes.

311 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:58:44pm

re: #299 razorbacker

I'm depressed.

I'm going to bed.

Tomorrow will be another day.

Likely full of the same old sh*t.

Maybe if you are really good and say your prayers the Shrew will give you a present tomorrow! Off to bed with you now...

312 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:58:49pm

re: #268 realwest

And that's what perlexes me about this whole case.
If he really was "legally insane" again, at the risk of being redundant, that decision in at least New York State, is usually made before the trial before the jury begins, as IF the defendant WAS legally insane, he would be unable to assist his defense lawyers in any significant way.

How the hell did Washington State reach the brilliant idea that the issue of his legal sanity should be left up to a jury?

Now that you mention it, that's the way it works here too. The judge determines the defendant's legal insanity before the trial and, if judged insane, off the defendant goes to the asylum, indefinitely or until he's adjudged sane enough to be tried, and then the process starts again.

/this must have been some type of temporary insanity defense

313 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:59:10pm

re: #270 Cognito

Wow.

This has been one fascinating and insightful discussion.

Apparently some of you guys wouldn't mind rolling back at least some laws to the seventh century.

Well, gee cog, maybe the seventh century had a few things right. Studies PROVE that the DP deters crime IF it is applied swiftly.

314 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:59:40pm

re: #208 solomonpanting

Haq told the forensic psychologist he wanted to "commit suicide by cop", intending to take hostages, wait for the police to show up and go out in a blaze of gunfire.

Too bad he didn't get his wish.

315 Inquisitive  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:59:55pm

re: #283 Killian Bundy

Both sides and the judge agree on the jury instructions before the trial. The judge instructs the jury at the end of the trial.

/the jury has to figure it out from the instructions they were given

okay that is understood--just using this to reference a reply to the other post that ---they could not have acquitted on one charge due to insanity if they were still asking questions for clarification on the legal difinition of insanity.

316 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:00:06pm

re: #313 JeremyR

Well, gee cog, maybe the seventh century had a few things right. Studies PROVE that the DP deters crime IF it is applied swiftly.

You can't deter the mentally incapable with logic, man.

That's what makes them mentally incapable.

This conversation has been a real eye-opener, I've got to tell you.

317 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:00:11pm

re: #306 Syrah

No, I don't recall -- they woke me up and I was still dazed. I lied, Syrah. I said I was a twenty-something Hispanic woman who supported Obama. Then they asked for my zipcode. I couldn't think of any that would fit my profile so I gave the true zipcode. Long silence ensued. Then the lady thanked me for my time.

318 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:01:21pm

re: #309 Cognito

I'm not talking about mere eye-for-eye. I'm talking about advocating for the execution of the mentally incapacitated.

That's astonishing.

Cog, sure some people here wish you would F off and die, but none are advocating killing you.
You don't understand the eye for an eye scripture do you?

319 solomonpanting  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:01:22pm

This is how mentally unstable he was:

Prosecution witnesses also testified that Haq conducted a computer search prior to the shootings to find his intended target.
According to the testimony of a Seattle police computer-forensic specialist, Haq sat down at his laptop the day before the shooting and began entering Internet search terms. He began by Googling the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, a Washington, D.C.-based lobbying group, and soon landed on the Seattle Jewish organization, eventually creating a map and directions for the 227-mile trip from his parents' home in Pasco.

320 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:01:32pm

Grumpy?

Got those links ready?

321 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:01:56pm

re: #318 JeremyR

Cog, sure some people here wish you would F off and die, but none are advocating killing you.
You don't understand the eye for an eye scripture do you?

Applied to the mentally incapable?

No.

322 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:02:43pm

re: #296 Cognito

I'm not talking about murderers. Obviously. I'm talking about the mentally incapable.

A number of people here have said they deserve capital punishment. Which is an astonishing thing. To the point of being bizarre, and certainly fodder for people who dislike LGF.

If someone is so mentally incapable that they commit murder, and it's still murder Cognito, whether they knew it or not, then they should have been at least locked up and taken out of society beforehand.

323 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:03:20pm

Oh, Contentious Cognito (You will be CC from now on) ... How are you today?

324 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:03:28pm

re: #322 republic

If someone is so mentally incapable that they commit murder, and it's still murder Cognito, whether they knew it or not, then they should have been at least locked up and taken out of society beforehand.

Yes, of course.

But then again, that's not what people are talking about. They're talking about the death penalty for the mentally incapable.

325 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:03:52pm

re: #316 Cognito

You can't deter the mentally incapable with logic, man.

That's what makes them mentally incapable.

This conversation has been a real eye-opener, I've got to tell you.

Far morethen half of mental verdicts are pure BS. Since they are based on studies conducted after the crime, it is in the interest of the criminal to sway it especially if they are looking at a death sentence.
I know you have a person stake in this, but come on.

326 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:04:01pm

re: #323 hermeneutics

Oh, Contentious Cognito (You will be CC from now on) ... How are you today?

I am awesome.

As always.

327 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:04:55pm

From RollCall via RS:

Roll Call reports that during a Senate vote today, Sen. Barack Obama “dragged” Sen. Joe Lieberman “by the hand to a far corner of the Senate chamber and engaged in what appeared to reporters in the gallery as an intense, three-minute conversation.”

“While it was unclear what the two were discussing, the body language suggested that Obama was trying to convince Lieberman of something and his stance appeared slightly intimidating.”

“Using forceful, but not angry, hand gestures, Obama literally backed up Lieberman against the wall, leaned in very close at times, and appeared to be trying to dominate the conversation, as the two talked over each other in a few instances.”

“Still, Obama and Lieberman seemed to be trying to keep the back-and-forth congenial as they both patted each other on the back during and after the exchange.”

328 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:05:06pm

re: #326 Cognito

And humble?

329 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:05:29pm

re: #321 Cognito

Cog, if a guy ate too many twinkies would that make him mentally incapable?
Because that's the kind of shit they're using for insanity defenses nowadays.

330 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:05:31pm

re: #325 JeremyR

Far morethen half of mental verdicts are pure BS. Since they are based on studies conducted after the crime, it is in the interest of the criminal to sway it especially if they are looking at a death sentence.
I know you have a person stake in this, but come on.

1) I'm not talking about whatever studies, etc etc etc -- I'm talking about the mentally incapable. People we'd agree are insane to the point of not being able to judge right or wrong. Let's keep it to that.

2) I'm game. What's my personal stake in this?

331 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:05:52pm

re: #328 hermeneutics

And humble?

Jes a little joke.

332 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:06:03pm

re: #321 Cognito

Applied to the mentally incapable?

No.

An eye for an eye was a limitation not a requirement. It barred people from taking a life for the loss of an eye. If you were blinded, the MOST you could demand in retribution was that the perp be blinded. You could not demand their life be taken. Exceptions were made for some crimes, rapists deserve death.

333 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:06:12pm

re: #290 Cognito

Goober. You're the one who made the assertion that he's free on bail. Why don't you back that up?

Or do you just throw out random bits of fiction for fun?

While you think on it, enjoy the first sentence of the third paragraph here, and the last sentence here.

I look forward to your links, in response.

You were the one who said he was in jail. The problem with your links is that none of them say he is currently in jail. Presumptively, that would seem to be the case. But typically after a mistrial, the suspect is led from the courtroom back to the jail. If he is granted bail pending further action, he is released from the jail upon receipt of the proper order to release him. He has to collect his personal property and dress out in civilian clothes, if necessary.

For all I know, he could have been remanded to the custody of a guardian or some other arrangement. I couldn't find any article that indicated that he remains in jail at this time.

334 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:06:26pm

re: #329 DesertSage

Cog, if a guy ate too many twinkies would that make him mentally incapable?
Because that's the kind of shit they're using for insanity defenses nowadays.

Nope. You know what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the truly mentally incapable.

They're out there.

335 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:07:14pm

re: #309 Cognito

I'm not talking about mere eye-for-eye. I'm talking about advocating for the execution of the mentally incapacitated.

That's astonishing.

No Cognito, you are trying to turn this into some believing that mentally ill people should be executed.

This man, with premeditation, quoting the koran, and saying horrible antisemetic things, shot and murdered 6 people, and hasn't been convicted of their murders.

You know, if it would have been, say, a white male, quoting something out of the Holy Bible, who shot 6 people to death, there isn't a jury anywhere in this country, who would have aquitted him of those murders, nor would they have even debated sanity or insanity.

You know it!

336 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:07:14pm

re: #333 really grumpy big dog Johnson

Okeydoke. Where's your link to show he's on bail, as you assert?

337 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:08:09pm

re: #324 Cognito

Yes, of course.

But then again, that's not what people are talking about. They're talking about the death penalty for the mentally incapable.

If anyone commits murder Cognito, they need to lose their life.

Period.

338 Syrah  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:08:17pm

re: #317 hermeneutics

Bummer.

I would like to find out who is using cell-phone polls. I would like to see what kind of results they are getting and see how they are solving some of the weight problems involved with it.

Of course you bring up another interesting problem.

Fibbing to the pollsters.

There is another form of "polling" that is able to completely do away with that problem.

It seems to be very accurate.

The punters may well turn out to be the better predictors as the whole telephone polling business gets up ended into the trash bin.

339 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:08:31pm

re: #330 Cognito

We now civilly commit the worst sex offenders after they've finished their criminal sentences. It's been up and down the court food chain and is still legal.

/are you aware of that?

340 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:08:46pm

Just a reminder, only one woman was murdered, other five were injured, I believe one was pregnant.

341 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:08:54pm

re: #335 republic

No Cognito, you are trying to turn this into some believing that mentally ill people should be executed.

This man, with premeditation, quoting the koran, and saying horrible antisemetic things, shot and murdered 6 people, and hasn't been convicted of their murders.

You know, if it would have been, say, a white male, quoting something out of the Holy Bible, who shot 6 people to death, there isn't a jury anywhere in this country, who would have aquitted him of those murders, nor would they have even debated sanity or insanity.

You know it!

I'm not talking about 'this man.' As I've noted numerous times, I have no idea whether he's insane. I sort of suspect not, but I don't know. And frankly neither do you.

And no, I'm not "trying to turn this into some believing that mentally ill people should be executed."

People have said it outright, no turning required.

342 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:09:09pm

re: #337 republic

If anyone commits murder Cognito, they need to lose their life.

Period.

Even someone who thinks he's killing three-headed aliens?

343 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:09:13pm

re: #330 Cognito

1) I'm not talking about whatever studies, etc etc etc -- I'm talking about the mentally incapable. People we'd agree are insane to the point of not being able to judge right or wrong. Let's keep it to that.

2) I'm game. What's my personal stake in this?

1. Most mentally incapable people are not capable of helping in their defense at all. Judging right from wrong is not a question of sanity but morals.

2. you're nucking futz.

344 Intrepid  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:09:33pm

re: #327 hermeneutics

Heh - Obama-strength!

Marking his territory NOW!

345 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:09:39pm

Something to smile about.

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell made good on his promise of retribution against Democrats for their slow pace in confirming judicial nominees by bringing the Senate to a halt Wednesday.

He forced a clerk to read every word of the 491-page global warming bill.

346 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:09:52pm

re: #332 JeremyR

An eye for an eye was a limitation not a requirement. It barred people from taking a life for the loss of an eye. If you were blinded, the MOST you could demand in retribution was that the perp be blinded. You could not demand their life be taken. Exceptions were made for some crimes, rapists deserve death.

and this,of course,is what would be wrong with a biblically based system of law...death penalty when PROPERLY adjuticated,likewise life imprisonment..but NO skate for claims or proof of insanity..and no halfassed miraculous recoveries to secure freedom at any time...do the time,pay the price..

347 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:09:59pm

re: #337 republic

If anyone commits murder Cognito, they need to lose their life.

Period.

Even if they're mentally incapable?

[I'll remind you of something a wise man said in post 335: "No Cognito, you are trying to turn this into some believing that mentally ill people should be executed."]

348 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:10:01pm

I don't have the energy for a Rezko/Jihadi/jury duty discussion now with the added layer of eugenics.

I will go to bed dreaming of Michelle Obama...putting her feet in her mouth. Both size 19s.

Long live the Shrew!

349 NY Nana  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:10:31pm

re: #307 republic

A person throws a tomato against a mosque, and is charged with a hate crime, but a worthless scumbag who only deserves death, with premeditation, murders 6 Jews, and they don't even convict him of murder.

When I saw this in the spinoffs hours ago, I sat here crying, in sadness and in fury. All I could think of is Buenos Aires, 1994, where the death toll was so much higher, but one is too many.

And because of this vile decision? It could, G-d forbid, happen again....here, anywhere.

BTW, Iran and Hizballah were charged...see the similarity in the 2 cases...

350 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:10:31pm

re: #344 Intrepid

I wish Joe L. would have reached out and decked him.

351 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:10:43pm

re: #334 Cognito

Nope. You know what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the truly mentally incapable.

They're out there.

I do understand that. And I'm not insensitive to the truly incapacitated. I just believe that this guy knew exactly what he was doing, and he's using what is the equivalent of the twinkie defense to get a reduced sentence, like getting sent to a mental hospital.

352 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:10:46pm

re: #335 republic

No Cognito, you are trying to turn this into some believing that mentally ill people should be executed.

This man, with premeditation, quoting the koran, and saying horrible antisemetic things, shot and murdered 6 people, and hasn't been convicted of their murders.

You know, if it would have been, say, a white male, quoting something out of the Holy Bible, who shot 6 people to death, there isn't a jury anywhere in this country, who would have aquitted him of those murders, nor would they have even debated sanity or insanity.

You know it!

That one was in the x ring. Cog won't get it though.

353 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:10:53pm

re: #339 Killian Bundy

We now civilly commit the worst sex offenders after they've finished their criminal sentences. It's been up and down the court food chain and is still legal.

/are you aware of that?

I don't know anything about that. Honestly I'm not sure how it applies here.

Not saying it doesn't, just saying I'm no legal wiz.

354 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:11:12pm

re: #316 Cognito

You can't deter the mentally incapable with logic, man.

That's what makes them mentally incapable.

This conversation has been a real eye-opener, I've got to tell you.

If a person is capable of premeditation and prior deceit and concealment to facilitate a crime, that person is presumptively capable of premeditated murder. It would only be under the most unusual of circumstances that a jury could properly find otherwise.

Anyway, no one need assert that the hung jury was based upon guilt with insanity or innocent because of insanity. A hung jury's reasons for an inability to reach a unanimous verdict are not limited to that particular situation.

The guy was capable of taking care of himself, of planning murder, of concealing in place prior to committing a felony. These are concrete indicators of guilt, regardless of his state of sanity.

355 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:11:24pm

re: #342 MandyManners

Even someone who thinks he's killing three-headed aliens?

Yes.

356 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:12:04pm

re: #343 JeremyR

Most mentally incapable people are not capable of helping in their defense at all. Judging right from wrong is not a question of sanity but morals.

Fascinating. So you're re-writing legal and societal standards, on the fly.

357 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:12:44pm

re: #341 Cognito

I'm not talking about 'this man.' As I've noted numerous times, I have no idea whether he's insane. I sort of suspect not, but I don't know. And frankly neither do you.

And no, I'm not "trying to turn this into some believing that mentally ill people should be executed."

People have said it outright, no turning required.

Well, Cog, the rest of us ARE talking about this NUT. Thats what this thread is about, a jihadi murdering someone and then hiding behind a legal loop hole.

358 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:12:54pm

re: #351 DesertSage

I do understand that. And I'm not insensitive to the truly incapacitated. I just believe that this guy knew exactly what he was doing, and he's using what is the equivalent of the twinkie defense to get a reduced sentence, like getting sent to a mental hospital.

Yes, I suspect the same.

359 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:13:06pm

re: #355 republic

Yes.

I find that very sad. Aren't we supposed to help the sick?

360 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:13:38pm

re: #347 Cognito

Even if they're mentally incapable?

[I'll remind you of something a wise man said in post 335: "No Cognito, you are trying to turn this into some believing that mentally ill people should be executed."]


I should have said "all" in that comment, my mistake.

I will now say, that anyone who commits murder, wether sane or not, needs to have their life taken.

361 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:13:55pm

I'm determine to find good news today, folks. Here's some more.

New Mexico conservatives will be glad to hear that the nicely conservative Pearce won his primary round against RINO Wilson.

And California conservatives will be glad to hear that retiring Congressman Doolittle's seat will be defended by Tom McClintock (the guy who ran against Arnold.)

362 solomonpanting  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:14:23pm

re: #356 Cognito

Most mentally incapable people are not capable of helping in their defense at all. Judging right from wrong is not a question of sanity but morals.

So then a person who is incapable of distinguishing right from wrong can be found not guilty by reason of immorality?

363 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:14:24pm

re: #354 really grumpy big dog Johnson

If a person is capable of premeditation and prior deceit and concealment to facilitate a crime, that person is presumptively capable of premeditated murder. It would only be under the most unusual of circumstances that a jury could properly find otherwise.

Anyway, no one need assert that the hung jury was based upon guilt with insanity or innocent because of insanity. A hung jury's reasons for an inability to reach a unanimous verdict are not limited to that particular situation.

The guy was capable of taking care of himself, of planning murder, of concealing in place prior to committing a felony. These are concrete indicators of guilt, regardless of his state of sanity.

Again.

Again.

I'm not talking about Haq. The conversation long ago moved to whether the mentally incapable should be available for the death penalty. That's what I'm talking about. And that's where people here have really surprised me tonight with a medieval mindset.

364 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:14:36pm

re: #348 brainwizard73

Goodnight, Wizard.

365 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:14:39pm

re: #358 Cognito

Yes, I suspect the same.

Then why are we having this argument?

*puzzled look on my face*

366 NY Nana  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:14:49pm

re: #340 Tarkus289

Just a reminder, only one woman was murdered, other five were injured, I believe one was pregnant.

One is too many, and the bastard claimed mental illness. Big freaking deal.

There was no way they were going to find him guilty.

367 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:15:12pm

re: #357 JeremyR

Well, Cog, the rest of us ARE talking about this NUT. Thats what this thread is about, a jihadi murdering someone and then hiding behind a legal loop hole.

No, the 'rest of us' aren't. People are making decidedly broad statements about killing the mentally incapable.

368 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:16:19pm

re: #362 solomonpanting

So then a person who is incapable of distinguishing right from wrong can be found not guilty by reason of immorality?

I didn't say that. There's something weird in the quote function there.

369 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:16:51pm

re: #333 really grumpy big dog Johnson

Trust me, I'll bet almost anything he's still in custody, or in a secure mental institution as a condition of any "bail". They already said they were going to retry the mistrial counts.

/just a matter of rearrest and recharging

370 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:16:53pm

re: #366 NY Nana

Please understand that I was not trying to minimize the event at all, I was
just pointing it out because I read a lot of posts that said six women were murdered, when in fact, it was only one.

371 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:16:58pm

re: #365 DesertSage

Then why are we having this argument?

*puzzled look on my face*

I dunno. I think we're in agreement.

372 deesine  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:17:13pm

re: #43 OtisMyMan

If he had done this in a Gay/Lesbian/Bi/Transgender center, perhaps the reporting would have been different, the treatment at trial would have been different and the results would have been different.

What's different is that we'd probably never here about it.

373 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:17:45pm

re: #371 Cognito

I dunno. I think we're in agreement.


Kismet!

374 Neo Con since 9-11  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:17:58pm

re: #356 Cognito

Most mentally incapable people are not capable of helping in their defense at all. Judging right from wrong is not a question of sanity but morals.

Fascinating. So you're re-writing legal and societal standards, on the fly.

So do you think Haq believed what he did was right or wrong?
His imam probably told him killing Jews was a good thing and I think Haq thought what he did was right. And, if he believed he was doing the right thing due to his religion should he still be judged insane?

375 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:18:23pm

re: #359 MandyManners

I find that very sad. Aren't we supposed to help the sick?

Everybody is "sick" Mandy, some more than others, and some way more than others yet, but the vast majority, the great majority of people don't murder.

Otherwise, there could be no judgement on murder.

Anyone who murders is very sick.

Look, I'm entitled to my opinion, after all, it is but one mans opinion.

376 Maximu§  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:18:37pm

of a man who stormed into a Jewish center two years ago and shot six women, killing one, as he ranted against Israel and the Iraq war.

No big deal, they we're only Jews right? Hell perhaps Naveed Haq could run for mayor of Seattle.

/s

377 realwest  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:18:43pm

re: #319 solomonpanting

Sigh. Yeah but the defense attorney said that Haq sufferered from "auditory hallucinations and paranoid delusions. [and] A defense expert diagnosed him as having bipolar disorder with psychotic tendencies.
As I've suggested several times now, the issue of legal insanity is too damned important to leave to jurors - experts testify for each side and the judge SHOULD make the decision about legal sanity. To try someone who in fact was legally insane, is insane itself for that person couldn't assist his counsel in defending himself (in this case, the murderer could have had auditory hallucinations and paranoid delusions while discussing the case with his lawyers or - if he took the stand - while testifying.

378 Inquisitive  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:18:44pm

re: #336 Cognito

Okeydoke. Where's your link to show he's on bail, as you assert?


He did not assert that---"he said --But typically after a mistrial, the suspect is led from the courtroom back to the jail. If he is granted bail pending further action, he is released from the jail upon receipt of the proper order to release him--and;
For all I know, he could have been remanded to the custody of a guardian or some other arrangement. I couldn't find any article that indicated that he remains in jail at this time.

379 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:18:50pm

re: #374 Neo Con since 9-11

So do you think Haq believed what he did was right or wrong?
His imam probably told him killing Jews was a good thing and I think Haq thought what he did was right. And, if he believed he was doing the right thing due to his religion should he still be judged insane?

What?

He did a very, very -- profoundly -- wrong thing.

Is that in question?

380 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:18:51pm

re: #295 republic

re: #303 Bacchus's daddy

I've been posting here for a few years. Most know I am NOT sympathetic to anyone who kills another person. If they understood what they did, and knew there was a good probability that someone could die because of their actions, I have no problem if a jury deems the death penalty appropriate. My whole point was regarding if he was insane. BUT...I'm not saying he was insane!

381 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:18:54pm

re: #372 deesine

What's different is that we'd probably never here about it.


no,what's different is that we'd never hear the end of it...

382 Racer X  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:19:22pm

re: #361 hermeneutics

I'm determine to find good news today, folks.


Well, I saved money on my car insurance, and I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night.

383 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:19:23pm

re: #354 really grumpy big dog Johnson

The hung jury was because they couldn't figure out a jury instruction.

/out of stupidity or willfulness, who knows?

384 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:19:32pm

re: #363 Cognito

Again.

Again.

I'm not talking about Haq. The conversation long ago moved to whether the mentally incapable should be available for the death penalty. That's what I'm talking about. And that's where people here have really surprised me tonight with a medieval mindset.

You're not listening to me. I didn't move to the death penalty, I moved to guilt or innocence based upon known facts.

I don't care what trends you are following, If you want to speak to me, speak to what I'm saying, not what you think I should be saying.

Cognito, you could probably be declared insane, but it wouldn't save you from death if you committed a crime.

385 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:19:42pm

re: #367 Cognito

No, the 'rest of us' aren't. People are making decidedly broad statements about killing the mentally incapable.

Well, I'll go on record stating I am in favor of executing anyone who commits murder regardless of whether they were sane, drunk, drugged or as nutty as they get.

386 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:19:55pm

re: #382 Racer X

Well, I saved money on my car insurance, and I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night.

Huh?

387 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:20:09pm

re: #378 Inquisitive

He did not assert that---

Ah, yes. He did:

He's on bail, and has been for some time. Prove me wrong.

388 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:20:43pm

re: #337 republic

If anyone commits murder Cognito, they need to lose their life.

Period.

Ya know, that's about the most stupid thing I've ever read here.

389 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:21:23pm

re: #380 Bob in Breckenridge

re: #303 Bacchus's daddy

I've been posting here for a few years. Most know I am NOT sympathetic to anyone who kills another person. If they understood what they did, and knew there was a good probability that someone could die because of their actions, I have no problem if a jury deems the death penalty appropriate. My whole point was regarding if he was insane. BUT...I'm not saying he was insane!


We're good Bob.

390 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:21:45pm

My, my.

Not a proud moment for LGF.

391 solomonpanting  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:22:21pm

re: #368 Cognito

I didn't say that. There's something weird in the quote function there.


Yes, I see that was JeremyR's comment.

392 zombie  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:22:31pm

Just posted in the spinoff links:

Be afraid -- be very afraid. View this photo to see what we're up against. Crowds of people thronging to simply "lay their hands" on Obama, as if he had Jesus-like powers to heal through touch.

This is not a campaign -- it's a religious tent-revival crusade.

I've never seen anything like it.

393 blutonazi98  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:22:43pm

this is my great state, the white libs here just know he has to be crazy because no sane person would just go in some random office and start killing people like that. they look at me with great doe eyes as i tell them he was not crazy he is Muslim, this was not random he wanted to kill jews.
they do not want to believe that but they will believe any libel on bush, america, republicans etc.
these are the same people that will not believe any negative about obama

394 Neo Con since 9-11  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:22:47pm

re: #379 Cognito

What?

He did a very, very -- profoundly -- wrong thing.

Is that in question?

No, that is not a question in my mind. But most terrorists believe they are doing the right. Should Osama, if we catch him, be judged insane just because he believed killing thousands of Americans was the right and good thing to do? He obviously is incapable of judging right from wrong.

395 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:22:49pm

re: #383 Killian Bundy

The hung jury was because they couldn't figure out a jury instruction.

/out of stupidity or willfulness, who knows?

Sounded to me that they couldn't figure out the intent of the jury instruction, and the judge wouldn't give them additional guidance. Not unusual.

396 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:22:53pm

re: #377 realwest

Hey RW!
The Kos Kiddies have hallucinations and paranoid delusions all the time. Are they all insane?

397 NY Nana  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:23:00pm

re: #106 Charles

And that makes him different from any other jihadi murderer who slaughters Jews... how, exactly?

Thank you, Charles.

398 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:23:01pm

re: #392 zombie

Secular millennialism, Zombie.

399 Inquisitive  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:23:07pm

re: #387 Cognito

was that from a earlier post?

400 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:23:13pm

re: #375 republic

Everybody is "sick" Mandy, some more than others, and some way more than others yet, but the vast majority, the great majority of people don't murder.

Otherwise, there could be no judgement on murder.

Anyone who murders is very sick.

Look, I'm entitled to my opinion, after all, it is but one mans opinion.

Where did I claim you were not entitled to your opinion?

That said, I'm talking about the truly mentally ill people, not some Jew-hating ass who plots to kill Jews and then hides out in their building in order to not get caught before he kills.

401 Racer X  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:24:02pm

re: #386 hermeneutics

Sorry - local TV ad joke I guess.

402 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:24:04pm

re: #394 Neo Con since 9-11

I believe the standard isn't whether someone believes he's doing right, at the moment, but rather whether he has the capacity to grasp the notion of 'right' and 'wrong.'

403 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:24:46pm

re: #385 JeremyR

Well, I'll go on record stating I am in favor of executing anyone who commits murder regardless of whether they were sane, drunk, drugged or as nutty as they get.

You would execute someone who is mentally ill?

What about a 10-year-old who kills?

404 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:24:48pm

re: #399 Inquisitive

was that from a earlier post?

206, I believe

405 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:25:09pm

re: #390 Cognito

My, my.

Not a proud moment for LGF.

The least proud moment for LGF is when you started soiling the waters, Cognito. Your entire existence here is dedicated to disrupting whatever discussion is at hand. You take the contrarian view, every time. Get a real life.

406 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:25:11pm

re: #390 Cognito

My, my.

Not a proud moment for LGF.

[Expletive deleted] off! After you lick yourself.

/go somewhere else, condescending prissy, LGF is catch as catch can and always has been

407 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:25:14pm

re: #390 Cognito

My, my.

Not a proud moment for LGF.


the vast majority of posters on this subject have not been as extreme as the few who are way over the top..that's no reason to slag LGF,cog...

408 Intrepid  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:25:16pm

My late uncle was able to concoct schemes to hurt or embarrass his siblings. He did so often, to my mother's detriment! And he hid when the consequences were forthcoming from my Grandmother.

(He broke the jar of beans and told my Grandmother that my mother had done so, even though he still held the hammer in his hand)

He thought someone else would get the blame, and he laughed!

And he was mentally retarded.

He set up the situation, he carried it through, and he found a fall guy. He also hid when the evidence was called for.

Yet he had the mental capacity of a 2 year old.

409 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:25:21pm

re: #392 zombie

Zombie,
The more I look at that picture, the scarier it seems. Look at their smiles, particularly of the black lady who looks estatic.

What are the yellow bracelets? Do you know?

410 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:25:23pm

re: #400 MandyManners

Where did I claim you were not entitled to your opinion?

That said, I'm talking about the truly mentally ill people, not some Jew-hating ass who plots to kill Jews and then hides out in their building in order to not get caught before he kills.

Mandy, Hitler was a madman. Had we captured him, should he have been spared? The same is true of Saddam.

411 Racer X  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:25:46pm

re: #392 zombie

Yeah, wait until he gets his hands on your wallet.

412 Bacchus's daddy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:25:59pm

re: #380 Bob in Breckenridge

Good here too. I agree that if this guy is insane, apart from Sudden Jihadi Syndrome or a close cousin thereof, he should be treated the same way all other "guilty by reason of insanity" cases are.

413 rustynail  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:26:09pm

re: #203 Noam Sayin'
Yes, but I think a .40 caliber Glock mango or a 45 ACP banana would be better choices.

414 solomonpanting  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:26:12pm

re: #377 realwest


As I've suggested several times now, the issue of legal insanity is too damned important to leave to jurors.

So it would appear, huh?

415 Inquisitive  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:26:15pm

re: #404 Cognito
okay I'll go back and read that post

416 Maximu§  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:26:29pm

re: #402 Cognito

I believe the standard isn't whether someone believes he's doing right, at the moment, but rather whether he has the capacity to grasp the notion of 'right' and 'wrong.'

Yeah, that sounds great until its one of your family members thats gunned down in cold blood.....then you would be singing a different tune.

417 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:26:33pm

re: #405 really grumpy big dog Johnson

The least proud moment for LGF is when you started soiling the waters, Cognito. Your entire existence here is dedicated to disrupting whatever discussion is at hand. You take the contrarian view, every time. Get a real life.

Yeah. I pretty much put words in your mouth, and the mouths of others.

A set of regular wilting flowers, tossed about in the verbal wind.

No.

418 Opilio  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:26:40pm

re: #324 Cognito

Yes, of course.

But then again, that's not what people are talking about. They're talking about the death penalty for the mentally incapable.

I'm late to the party, but I've tried to scan the thread to catch up.

That being said, are you saying that someone up thread is advocating the execution of the "mentally incapable" merely for being mental incapable, without having inflicted grievous harm on someone?

419 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:26:50pm

re: #388 Bob in Breckenridge

Ya know, that's about the most stupid thing I've ever read here.

That's what I've always believed Bob.

If you don't agree, and you comment that you don't agree, I wouldn't say that's about the most stupid thing I've ever read here, I'd just figure that's your personal opinion.

But, you're certainly entitled to state that what I said is about the most stupid thing you've read here.

I'm fine with that.

420 NY Nana  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:27:29pm

re: #370 Tarkus289

Tarkus,

Life is precious, and even that one was murdered in cold blood? The effects on the Jewish community, the people who were injured, the families, name it...their lives are forever changed.

I know that you meant no harm, but I have seen so much of this in my lifetime that I feel numb after seeing this happen time after time...and it seems that very few are convicted...a disproportionate number of Jews who are killed in cold blood? The perp walks, or does time that is a joke.

421 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:27:41pm

re: #403 MandyManners

You would execute someone who is mentally ill?

What about a 10-year-old who kills?

If they commit murder, yes. If it was some freak childish accident, no.

422 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:27:47pm

re: #406 Killian Bundy

[Expletive deleted] off! After you lick yourself.

/go somewhere else, condescending prissy, LGF is catch as catch can and always has been

Hey, man, sorry. People have said some pretty heinous things here tonight.

Not by my standards. By America's standards. We don't kill the mentally incapable. And it's embarrassing to see people argue for something otherwise.

423 LeePro  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:27:47pm

re: #261 hermeneutics

Oh, that's very interesting. I'm still looking at the poll and I just noticed, too, that the last CBS poll had Obama 11% higher than McCain. Trending McCain!

Now, if we could pin Rezko to Obama's house (which is true), and if the media was responsible enough to show Obama in a true light, his numbers should go down even further.

No, wait, wait, wait...

You just put "media" and "responsible" in the same sentence...!

/haddabee a typo!

424 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:28:13pm

re: #390 Cognito

My, my.

Not a proud moment for LGF.

From what I've learned thus far in life, human beings bicker, often.

425 DownRightMeanAmerican  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:28:18pm

Reminds me of some LA trials like the Menendez brothers 1st trial, OJ, Blake, Spector, etc....

So maybe we aren’t just the only fruits and nuts... :)

426 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:29:02pm

re: #407 joecitizen

the vast majority of posters on this subject have not been as extreme as the few who are way over the top..that's no reason to slag LGF,cog...

You're right; I don't mean to slag LGF. I like LGF. But I think the comments section is salted with some pretty jagged people.

427 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:29:06pm

re: #423 LeePro

No, wait, wait, wait...

You just put "media" and "responsible" in the same sentence...!

/haddabee a typo!

It was an if ... then clause! The assumption was the media would not be responsible, but I get your drift.

How are you Lee?

428 realwest  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:29:10pm

re: #396 DesertSage
Hey Sage - I don't know about ALL the koskidz, but just from reading some of their diaries or comments, I'd say they were nucking futz!

429 Neo Con since 9-11  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:29:27pm

re: #402 Cognito

I believe the standard isn't whether someone believes he's doing right, at the moment, but rather whether he has the capacity to grasp the notion of 'right' and 'wrong.'

I hope one of the lawyers here weighs in on this. I had always heard it phrased "knows the difference between 'right' and 'wrong'". Although, phrased as "the capacity to grasp the notion of 'right' and 'wrong'" would clear this up a bit for me.

430 Inquisitive  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:29:35pm

re: #404 Cognito

206, I believe

;o---he did assert that he wa out on bail and had been for long time ;)

431 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:29:52pm

re: #418 Opilio

I'm late to the party, but I've tried to scan the thread to catch up.

That being said, are you saying that someone up thread is advocating the execution of the "mentally incapable" merely for being mental incapable, without having inflicted grievous harm on someone?


'some' have advocated the death penalty for the mentally incapable who committ murder..

432 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:29:54pm

re: #410 JeremyR

Mandy, Hitler was a madman. Had we captured him, should he have been spared? The same is true of Saddam.

They were NOT insane. They were evil, probably narcissists and sociopaths. Personality disorders are not mental illnesses.

433 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:31:47pm