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Seattle Jihadi Murderer Gets Mistrial

Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 8:50:06 pm PDT

Enraged by the Lebanon War in 2006, Naveed Haq burst into a Jewish center and started shooting people while screaming “Death to the Jews!”

But that wasn’t enough to satisfy a Seattle jury that he was guilty. Mistrial for man who shot 6 at Jewish center.

SEATTLE, Washington (AP) — A judge declared a mistrial Wednesday in the case of a man who stormed into a Jewish center two years ago and shot six women, killing one, as he ranted against Israel and the Iraq war.

Naveed Haq stormed into a Jewish center two years ago and shot six women, killing one.

Jurors had indicated in questions posed to the judge that they were hopelessly deadlocked and struggling to determine whether Naveed Haq, 32, was not guilty by reason of insanity, as he claimed.

King County Superior Court Judge Paris Kallas ended the jury’s deliberations in their eighth day.

The jurors reached a partial verdict on only one of the 15 counts against Haq, finding him not guilty of attempted first-degree murder of one of the women. But they couldn’t agree on the lesser charge of attempted second-degree murder or any of the other 14 charges, which included murder.

Haq held a teenage girl at gunpoint to force his way into the Jewish Federation of Greater Seattle on July 28, 2006. Once in the second-floor office, he began railing against U.S. policies and opened fire when someone tried to call 911. He shot some people in their cubicles, some in the hall and one, Pamela Waechter, fatally as she fled down a stairwell.

An emergency operator eventually persuaded him to surrender.

Prosecutors quickly announced that they hope to retry Haq this year, and representatives of the Jewish Federation of Greater Seattle expressed their disappointment at the mistrial.

“There is no argument Haq killed Pam. There is no argument he viciously shot five others. There is no argument that he made anti-Israel and anti-Semitic statements. Somehow, all this was not enough,” Jewish Federation President Richard Fruchter said.

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1020 comments

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1 Mars Needs Neocons  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:51:06pm

Scumbag

2 jcm  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:51:24pm

For the first time in my life I'm proud of a Seattle jury.

//////////////

3 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:51:32pm

Injustice!

4 savage_nation[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:51:40pm
5 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:51:46pm

What the hell is wrong with the people in Seattle?

6 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:51:57pm

Then there are the brainless Jurors, who asked that idiotic question to cause a mistrial!

7 Sharmuta  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:52:20pm

He's not insane- he's islamic.

8 Ojoe  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:53:02pm

What madness this is
What lawyers that can twist any yes into a no

9 savage_nation[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:53:09pm
10 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:53:15pm

No one wants to admit to themselves that someone could do things like this in the name of religion...someone always wants to say "it can't happen", but it does. Every century. Apparently we are not studying our history...

11 Inquisitive  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:53:21pm

Okay blood pressure just shot up big time! !

12 Gozer the Carpathian  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:53:44pm

Oi oi... seriously! I want to know the numbers on that one. Was there only one sane person there? 10? You have bloody evidence he shot those people, how do you not find him guilty of SOMETHING?

13 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:53:50pm

This is no surprise with the moonbat jury pool in Seattle. I would be surprised if this case ever results in a conviction. Seattle and San Fran are the safest cities for Jihad.

14 Sharmuta  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:53:58pm

Being a "crazy jihadi" is not an excuse for murder!

15 Ning the Merciless  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:54:02pm

I didn't know they let you smoke crack in Seattle courts.

16 jcm  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:54:03pm

re: #5 DesertSage

What the hell is wrong with the people in Seattle?

They've been electing McDimwitt for years. I live here, and it still baffles me.

17 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:54:15pm

re: #8 Ojoe

What madness this is
What lawyers that can twist any yes into a no

You know...

He probably is entitled to the protections of the Geneva Conventions, too.

18 capitalist piglet  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:54:32pm

My God...I am so ashamed of my neighbors in Seattle. This is sick.

19 6pat6  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:54:38pm

Seattle has such a high percentage of Californicators living there these days. Any surprise that justice was NOT done?

20 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:54:41pm

re: #15 Ning the Merciless

I didn't know they let you smoke crack in Seattle courts.

Drug testing for jurors!

21 OtisMyMan  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:55:03pm

Didn't he know this was a "Gun Free Zone"?

22 6pat6  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:55:29pm

re: #20 brainwizard73

Drug testing for jurors!

A positive test is mandatory to be selected there!

23 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:55:38pm
He burst into a Jewish center and started shooting people while screaming “Death to the Jews!”

/after a few years of an Obama administration, with a Bonkey Congress, probably won't even be a crime anymore

24 nachomamma  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:55:49pm

I knew Naveed in dental school. in this case I think it should be pointed out that something was wrong with Naveed mentally. As a Jew, my knee jerk reaction was anti-semitism, and yes he obviously is an anti-semite based on what he did, and said.... but he was not stable either.

25 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:56:18pm

re: #5 DesertSage

What the hell is wrong with the people in Seattle?

You mean that if the roles were reversed (Jewish guy goes into Islamic community center and opens fire) that the wouldn't have the same problem convicting him?

Where the hell is your faith in humanity?

You are probably one of those bitter people...

26 Inquisitive  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:56:19pm

re: #7 Sharmuta

He's not insane- he's islamic.

Of course he is insane-he is islamic, but not the kind of insane that didn't know what he was doing was wrong. In fact since he is islamic then he beleived what he was doing was right.

27 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:56:29pm

re: #16 jcm

They've been electing McDimwitt for years. I live here, and it still baffles me.

Are they in a competition with San Francisco for the country's dumbest city? I don't get it...and I live in freaking CA.

28 jcm  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:56:29pm

Haq planned this.
He got the weapons. He practiced with them. His computer showed he searched for Jewish locations in Seattle.

His confession was tossed by the judge.

The defense got an OJ jury, which ain't hard in Seattle.

29 mikeinmd  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:56:33pm
King County Superior Court Judge Paris Kallas ended the jury’s deliberations in their eighth day.

It took them 8 FUCKING DAYS ?

AHHHHHHH>

30 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:57:37pm
They noted that Haq planned the shooting for days, drove from his eastern Washington home to Seattle the morning of the shooting and hid in the building's foyer to avoid detection.

He knew what he was doing.

31 Macker  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:58:04pm

re: #24 nachomamma

I knew Naveed in dental school. in this case I think it should be pointed out that something was wrong with Naveed mentally. As a Jew, my knee jerk reaction was anti-semitism, and yes he obviously is an anti-semite based on what he did, and said.... but he was not stable either.

Sorry, but anyone who's a jihadist is mentally unbalanced in my book!

32 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:58:13pm

re: #25 brainwizard73

You are probably one of those bitter people...

I'm getting more bitter everyday too.

33 LoFlyer  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:58:39pm

I guarantee if the attack had taken place at the Seattle Times and left six dead journalists, the verdict would of been different. Its funny how public opinion changes when the media puts their brand of spin on the story. My neice lives in Portland and has the same liberal attitude of Seattle. The "War is not the answer" sign on the front yard of her parents explain a lot of their attitude.

34 unclassifiable  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:58:59pm

I do not understand the legal hair-splitting.

Do you differentiate between sane and insane murderers because one is less of a threat to society than another?

35 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:59:00pm

Well, it looks as if the state of Washington is a jihadist haven, I'm sure the jihadists will be flocking there to perpetuate their islmofascist human butchery.

Once news of this spreads, jihadists from all over the world will be moving to Washington state, why not, as with most criminals in the USA, there is no real punishment for crimes, even 1st degree murder.

jihadis will be passing out candies everywhere, knowing that in the state of Washington, you can murder in the name of allah, and receive no earthly consequences.


We need to get STUCK MOJO's "Open Season" circulating again, I listened to it today, and it's as great as when I first heard it.

36 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:59:05pm
37 jcm  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:59:07pm

Unfortunately this is one of the rare cases where the guns where bought legally, and Haq got a CPL (Concealed Pistol License). WA is a shall issue State and unless there's a felony record, will issue one. Mental health falls under HIPA and can't be referenced.

This case is already being used by the gun grabbers.

38 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:59:13pm

[self deleted comment about certain people and insanity]
Discuss whether I meant Seattle jurors, or people similar to the murderer.

And yes, I think this would become more acceptable under an Obamanation presidency. His connection to the Nation of Islam, for example, will make such anti-Semitism respectable.
If Obama is elected, we'll need Israel more than ever, and he'll sell Israel down the river.

39 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:59:35pm

can there,will there be a retrial?

40 jcm  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:59:41pm

re: #29 mikeinmd

It took them 8 FUCKING DAYS ?

AHHHHHHH>

7 and a half days to agree to where to order coffee from.

41 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 8:59:45pm

re: #24 nachomamma

I knew Naveed in dental school. in this case I think it should be pointed out that something was wrong with Naveed mentally. As a Jew, my knee jerk reaction was anti-semitism, and yes he obviously is an anti-semite based on what he did, and said.... but he was not stable either.

To be fair, "stability" is not the standard for legal insanity. Homeboy might have had some real issues, but from the article, it looks fairly premeditated, looks like there was evidence of intent, and that the guy knew what he was doing was wrong...sounds like a guilty verdict to me, or at least not a hard "is this insanity or not" angst.

42 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:00:04pm

re: #32 DesertSage

I'm getting more bitter everyday too.

Save room on the last chopper for me, please.

43 OtisMyMan  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:00:10pm

If he had done this in a Gay/Lesbian/Bi/Transgender center, perhaps the reporting would have been different, the treatment at trial would have been different and the results would have been different.

44 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:00:17pm

I guarantee that if it had been a Jew, and he walked past a mosque in
a menacing manner, the verdict would be different.

45 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:00:18pm

re: #39 joecitizen

I assume they will retry the case.

46 Mars Needs Neocons  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:00:20pm

re: #35 republic

Well, it looks as if the state of Washington is a jihadist haven, I'm sure the jihadists will be flocking there to perpetuate their islmofascist human butchery.

Once news of this spreads, jihadists from all over the world will be moving to Washington state, why not, as with most criminals in the USA, there is no real punishment for crimes, even 1st degree murder.

jihadis will be passing out candies everywhere, knowing that in the state of Washington, you can murder in the name of allah, and receive no earthly consequences.


We need to get STUCK MOJO's "Open Season" circulating again, I listened to it today, and it's as great as when I first heard it.

Just saw the video the other day. Wow. I liked their music with Fozzy, didn't know they had a "right wing rant".

47 Sharmuta  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:00:26pm

re: #30 MandyManners

He knew what he was doing.

Exactly- that's not insanity- it's premeditation.

48 savage_nation[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:00:30pm
49 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:00:30pm

re: #23 Killian Bundy

/after a few years of an Obama administration, with a Bonkey Congress, probably won't even be a crime anymore

Didn't you here, Obama said today he is going to be the best friend that Israel has ever had in the history of mankind.

/

50 solomonpanting  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:00:44pm
If found guilty, Haq would have been sent to prison for life without the possibility of release. While presenting his insanity defense, Haq's attorneys said he posed a risk to society and should instead be locked in a state mental hospital for the rest of his life.

He should have been prosecuted for a hate crime.
//

51 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:00:54pm

re: #39 joecitizen

can there,will there be a retrial?

One story (not sure if this the one) says prosecutors want to try him again...

Thought: Move the trial to, say, Boise?

52 Sharmuta  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:00:57pm

re: #39 joecitizen

can there,will there be a retrial?

Yes:


Prosecutors quickly announced that they hope to retry Haq this year
53 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:01:05pm

My guess is the piece of shit picked Seattle for a reason. Those liberal freaks do send Jim McDimwitt to congress every year.

54 Mich-again  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:01:32pm

So then, the jury said that Islam = Insanity. Well allrighty then. I'm waiting for the angry missive from CAIR.

55 jcm  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:01:54pm

re: #51 brainwizard73

One story (not sure if this the one) says prosecutors want to try him again...

Thought: Move the trial to, say, Boise?

We have a good prosecutor in King Co. he'll retry.

56 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:02:02pm

re: #48 savage_nation

More than trade will be cut off, to be sure.

57 mikeinmd  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:02:19pm

re: #40 jcm

7 and a half days to agree to where to order coffee from.

There's probably some truth to that.

58 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:02:19pm

re: #53 Bob in Breckenridge

My guess is the piece of shit picked Seattle for a reason. Those liberal freaks do send Jim McDimwitt to congress every year.

Every other year. Whatever.

59 savage_nation[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:02:22pm
60 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:02:32pm

My real thoughts on this matter would get deleted or lead to a ban.

61 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:02:51pm

Anyone know whatever happened to the Jihadi who ran down the crowd of people with his rental car out east?

/the one who thought Islam was numerically perfect (another insanity defense)?

62 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:02:51pm

re: #40 jcm

7 and a half days to agree to where to order coffee from.

They probably had waffles at the Holiday Inn during sequestration.

63 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:02:57pm

re: #46 Mars Needs Neocons

Just saw the video the other day. Wow. I liked their music with Fozzy, didn't know they had a "right wing rant".

I got an autogrphed CD last year.

"I'm an American" is another great tune off the CD.

64 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:03:27pm

re: #55 jcm

We have a good prosecutor in King Co. he'll retry.

How about getting a new juror pool? How easy will it be to find new jurors?

65 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:03:27pm

re: #33 LoFlyer

I guarantee if the attack had taken place at the Seattle Times and left six dead journalists, the verdict would of been different. Its funny how public opinion changes when the media puts their brand of spin on the story. My neice lives in Portland and has the same liberal attitude of Seattle. The "War is not the answer" sign on the front yard of her parents explain a lot of their attitude.

Oh, for heaven's sake.

The problem here rests with a jury that couldn't get its act together, and was regardless charged to not read or watch media reports on the trial.

The endless, limitless blame-the-media mindset is fruitless.

Blame the jury. Blame the prosecutors. Blame the judge. And, of course, blame the killer.

66 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:03:55pm

re: #45 Killgore Trout

I assume they will retry the case.


and,based on geography,this slimefuck will probably walk as a free man again...what's the word I'm lookimg for?..v something..vigilance?..no, that's not it,gimme a second...

67 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:04:02pm

re: #48 savage_nation

Do you think Obama would go so far as to cut off trade with Israel?

Not directly, but he'll pressure Israel to stop building "settlements" (in other words, stop making room for more Jews, and make sure the demographics favors "palestinians"), and make it harder for them to defend themselves.

68 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:04:18pm

re: #50 solomonpanting

He should have been prosecuted for a hate crime.
//

That's only if a activist leftist judge or jury decides if it is a hate crime.

69 savage_nation[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:04:30pm
70 stevieray  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:04:31pm

Gotta find a way to keep moral relativists and multiculti moonbats off of juries. How can they judge guilt or innocence when they believe the highest human value is non-judgmentalism?

71 Inquisitive  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:04:48pm

re: #50 solomonpanting
While presenting his insanity defense, Haq's attorneys said he posed a risk to society and should instead be locked in a state mental hospital for the rest of his life.

He should have been prosecuted for a hate crime.
//


and they didn't even do that!

72 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:04:59pm

re: #60 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

My real thoughts on this matter would get deleted or lead to a ban.

It's happened to the best of us, Kragar. More than once to me specifically.

73 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:05:01pm

re: #5 DesertSage

What the hell is wrong with the people in Seattle?

SeaTac= Berkley with frostbite on the brain.

74 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:05:17pm

re: #69 savage_nation

You are the multi-thread man.

75 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:05:23pm

re: #67 Kosh's Shadow

Not directly, but he'll pressure Israel to stop building "settlements" (in other words, stop making room for more Jews, and make sure the demographics favors "palestinians"), and make it harder for them to defend themselves.

/and not intervene or retaliate if they're seriously attacked

76 6pat6  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:05:23pm

re: #53 Bob in Breckenridge

My guess is the piece of shit picked Seattle for a reason. Those liberal freaks do send Jim McDimwitt to congress every year.

I can pretty mucjh guarantee a like-minded bag of shit like him would not even THINK of doing that in Texas or Oklahoma. We actually EXECUTE murderers! In fact, OK is getting ready to electricute, oops, "put to sleep in a humane method" the first murderer to be put to death in the US since that ridiculous moratorium, while the SC debated that method of execution as not "cruel and unusual"

77 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:05:46pm

re: #69 savage_nation

Death by a thousand cuts?

That's the Arab "peace by pieces" plan.

78 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:05:51pm

re: #70 stevieray

Gotta find a way to keep moral relativists and multiculti moonbats off of juries. How can they judge guilt or innocence when they believe the highest human value is non-judgmentalism?

How does one discriminate between behaivors when one thinks that discrimination is the ultimate evil?

It is the greatest blind spot of modern liberalism.

79 LoFlyer  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:05:56pm

re: #50 solomonpanting

He should have been prosecuted for a hate crime.
//

Hate crimes are dependant upon the status of the victims. Jews are not considered a protected minority. Also the race and culture of the perpertrator must be considered. This guy was not white or Christian. Makes all the difference in the world for our system of justice. Kind of sux for the six dead Jews though!

80 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:06:13pm

re: #73 JeremyR

SeaTac= Berkley with frostbite on the brain.

Ha.

The atmospheric gloominess in Seattle is nice for a few days, but I think it starts to mess with people's minds, after a while...

81 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:06:24pm

re: #65 Cognito

Oh, for heaven's sake.

The problem here rests with a jury that couldn't get its act together, and was regardless charged to not read or watch media reports on the trial.

The endless, limitless blame-the-media mindset is fruitless.

Blame the jury. Blame the prosecutors. Blame the judge. And, of course, blame the killer.


I've heard there are some real "bullies" on certain juries, like most of the jurors were going to rule one way, and the "bully" would brow beat them until they would capitulte, and swing the other way.

82 jcm  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:06:32pm

re: #64 brainwizard73

How about getting a new juror pool? How easy will it be to find new jurors?

I've been in two jury pools, I was first dismissed by the attorney's both times.
Everyone with a job, will get hardship dismissals, they tend to get Oprah juries. Add the leftward leaning looniness of Seattle and viola you've got a jury who will buy the whole victim, insane line.

83 6pat6  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:06:33pm
re: #40 jcm

7 and a half days to agree to where to order coffee from.

Yeah, the Starbucks on one of the four corners of the SAME G-D intersection!

84 Syrah  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:06:41pm

re: #64 brainwizard73

How about getting a new juror pool? How easy will it be to find new jurors?

Thats the rub.

Seattle is run rife with moon-bats.

The surrounding areas aren't that much better.

85 jcm  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:07:00pm

re: #73 JeremyR

SeaTac= Berkley with frostbite on the brain.

ROFL! very true.

86 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:07:36pm

Moral relativism will be the downfall of this country.

87 solomonpanting  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:07:55pm

re: #79 LoFlyer



Kind of sux for the six dead Jews though!

One died, five others wounded.

88 Bacchus's daddy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:08:06pm

re: #7 Sharmuta

He's not insane- he's islamic.

The similarity between the two could be a real fucking thorn in the side of the prosecutors in this country of any future Jihadists.

89 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:08:15pm

I my neighborhood, they are opening a Starbucks .......in a Starbucks.


...Dennis Miller

90 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:08:22pm

re: #86 DesertSage

Moral relativism will be the downfall of this country.

True, true.

91 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:08:24pm

re: #76 6pat6

I can pretty mucjh guarantee a like-minded bag of shit like him would not even THINK of doing that in Texas or Oklahoma. We actually EXECUTE murderers! In fact, OK is getting ready to electricute, oops, "put to sleep in a humane method" the first murderer to be put to death in the US since that ridiculous moratorium, while the SC debated that method of execution as not "cruel and unusual"

Actually, I was going to type liberal fucks...

92 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:08:32pm

re: #80 Cognito

The atmospheric gloominess in Seattle is nice for a few days, but I think it starts to mess with people's minds, after a while...


Direct sunlight causes me physical and psychological pain.

93 jcm  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:08:58pm

Outta here Lizards.
Good night all.

Justice is conscience, not a personal conscience but the conscience of the whole of humanity. Those who clearly recognize the voice of their own conscience usually recognize also the voice of justice.
ALEXANDER SOLZHENITSYN

94 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:09:36pm

re: #81 republic

I've heard there are some real "bullies" on certain juries, like most of the jurors were going to rule one way, and the "bully" would brow beat them until they would capitulte, and swing the other way.

That would be on a jury. How come I NEVER get an invitation?

95 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:09:49pm

re: #24 nachomamma

I knew Naveed in dental school. in this case I think it should be pointed out that something was wrong with Naveed mentally. As a Jew, my knee jerk reaction was anti-semitism, and yes he obviously is an anti-semite based on what he did, and said.... but he was not stable either.

As a non-Jew human being, my knee-jerk reaction also was anti-semitism - you say you knew him in dental school; and from that you have figured out that he was not "stable"?

Even if he wasn't/isn't "stable" - does he know right from wrong? Would he have known that what he did was against the laws of this country?

96 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:09:50pm

re: #92 Killgore Trout

Direct sunlight causes me physical and psychological pain.

It sounds like you're a bat, K Trout.

97 Syrah  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:09:54pm

re: #92 Killgore Trout

Direct sunlight causes me physical and psychological pain.

You would like Seattle then.

It is a very gray city.

Sunny days are a rarity.

98 LoFlyer  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:10:01pm

re: #65 Cognito

Oh, for heaven's sake.

The problem here rests with a jury that couldn't get its act together, and was regardless charged to not read or watch media reports on the trial.

The endless, limitless blame-the-media mindset is fruitless.

Blame the jury. Blame the prosecutors. Blame the judge. And, of course, blame the killer.

Cog, you know damn well if he had killed six journalists at the Seattle Times, he would of been tried and convicted in the "court of public opinion" and found guilty in the trial. Our media provides the framework for public opinion, and they are neither fair or balanced.
/Its just six Jews killed by a Muslim, who cares? (except their families)

99 Noam Sayin'  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:10:43pm

Oh, for crying out loud.

The problem here rests with a a media that couldn't be bothered with digging into the story, and was regardless, oblivious to the story as a whole.

The endless, limitless[,] lack of this kind of coverage is fruitful, perhaps, eventually (for some, but only for a little while).

Heh™

100 Bacchus's daddy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:10:45pm

re: #93 jcm

Outta here Lizards.
Good night all.

Justice is conscience, not a personal conscience but the conscience of the whole of humanity. Those who clearly recognize the voice of their own conscience usually recognize also the voice of justice.
ALEXANDER SOLZHENITSYN

Excellent quote! I love Solzhenitsyn, and I think his First Circle was one of the most underappreciated novels of the last century. IMHO

101 Intrepid  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:10:55pm

Folks, this guy Haq is insane. He is nuttier than a fruitcake.

Yes, he is guilty of killing those people, but he is indeed insane, legally and psychologically.

He is not a Jihadhii.

He is one who is probably picking flies off the wall to eat, he is that crazy.

102 savage_nation[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:11:00pm
103 Dotcoman  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:11:26pm

re: #4 savage_nation

WTF?

Exactly!

What the hell is wrong with Seattle's' jury pool?

Or did CAIR somehow manage to spike the Jury?

I don't think that's the right term for it, but....?

104 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:12:26pm

re: #103 Dotcoman

What the hell is wrong with Seattle's' jury pool?

Too much chlorine.

105 Neo Con since 9-11  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:12:40pm

re: #65 Cognito

Oh, for heaven's sake.

The problem here rests with a jury that couldn't get its act together, and was regardless charged to not read or watch media reports on the trial.

The endless, limitless blame-the-media mindset is fruitless.

Blame the jury. Blame the prosecutors. Blame the judge. And, of course, blame the killer.

The point is that ha d this been anything but a Jewish center attacked by a muslim the jury would have sent him to prison for life in half a day. Had this been a Jew attacking a mosque. If this had been an evangelical Christian attacking a GLBT or abortion clinic. If this had been a racist attacking a NAACP meeting. In all these cases, the guy would never have seen daylight again.

106 Charles  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:12:47pm

re: #101 Intrepid

Folks, this guy Haq is insane. He is nuttier than a fruitcake.

Yes, he is guilty of killing those people, but he is indeed insane, legally and psychologically.

He is not a Jihadhii.

He is one who is probably picking flies off the wall to eat, he is that crazy.

And that makes him different from any other jihadi murderer who slaughters Jews... how, exactly?

107 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:12:49pm

re: #82 jcm

I've been in two jury pools, I was first dismissed by the attorney's both times.
Everyone with a job, will get hardship dismissals, they tend to get Oprah juries. Add the leftward leaning looniness of Seattle and viola you've got a jury who will buy the whole victim, insane line.

Right, it hard to get good juries anyway, but after a mistrial in a high profile case, you have to wonder if a change in venue might not be a potential option.

108 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:12:53pm

re: #101 Intrepid

Folks, this guy Haq is insane. He is nuttier than a fruitcake.

Yes, he is guilty of killing those people, but he is indeed insane, legally and psychologically.

He is not a Jihadhii.

He is one who is probably picking flies off the wall to eat, he is that crazy.

He, or anyone who commits murder needs to have their life taken.

Period.

109 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:12:58pm

re: #81 republic

I've heard there are some real "bullies" on certain juries, like most of the jurors were going to rule one way, and the "bully" would brow beat them until they would capitulte, and swing the other way.

Shit, PIMF- That would be ME on a jury. How come I never get an invitation?

110 solomonpanting  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:13:03pm

re: #94 Bob in Breckenridge

That would be on a jury. How come I NEVER get an invitation?

I've been selected (not elected) for two weeks of Federal Jury service next month.

111 LEGION  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:13:18pm

Stupid in Seattle.

112 Mich-again  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:13:26pm

It is telling how when moonbats have to actually dissect the murderous actions of a full-fledged jihadi they determine that the perp must have been insane. So then it seems the precedent is that religious fundamentalists who commit felonies in the cause of promoting their religion are actually "insane".

I wonder how that line of defense would work for a Christian fundie who assaulted a homosexual or bombed an abortion clinic because that act was aligned with their form of religion.

113 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:13:50pm

re: #106 Charles

Did he plead insanity? Just wondering.

114 LoFlyer  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:13:53pm

Personally I have never understood the insanity defense plea. Doesn't matter to the victims whether you are sane or insane, they are still dead. The perpertrator should receive the same punishment, regardless of sanity.

115 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:14:04pm

re: #101 Intrepid

Folks, this guy Haq is insane. He is nuttier than a fruitcake.

Yes, he is guilty of killing those people, but he is indeed insane, legally and psychologically.

He is not a Jihadhii.

He is one who is probably picking flies off the wall to eat, he is that crazy.

From the article:

They noted that Haq planned the shooting for days, drove from his eastern Washington home to Seattle the morning of the shooting and hid in the building's foyer to avoid detection.

116 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:14:05pm

re: #106 Charles

And that makes him different from any other jihadi murderer who slaughters Jews... how, exactly?

If it's true that he's insane -- literally, clinically, chemically insane -- it does matter.

117 6pat6  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:14:05pm

Seattle is such a depressing place. Lived there for a while, and could not wait to leave. Between the climate and the lunatics that breed there...

118 paradox42  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:14:43pm

If the tables were turned and this POS was a Jew who shot at muslim women, this jury would have sent him to the chair. Deep down in places they refuse to acknowledge, they know that islam is dangerous. They know that muslims don't value human life, and that CAIR would think nothing off offing some jurors who voted wrong.

They also know that Jews don't do that sort of thing. They know that they can get away with anti-semitism because Jews are civilized people. Hell, the entire world knows that, even as they condemn Israel as the worst of the worst.

Sometimes, when I'm really pissed (like now), I wonder if Jews acted like muslims, would people think twice before attacking us. Would fear of Jewish riots make the MSM and the UN more respectful. Would threats of "behead those who insult Judiasm" scare the world into treating us better? Maybe, maybe not, but the point is that it doesn't matter because that isn't the way we do things. The Torah is not the koran. It's message is one of love and life not hatred and death.

119 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:15:01pm

re: #102 savage_nation

Thanks, I needed a good laugh.

120 realwest  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:15:09pm

Huffa puffa, huffa puffa - geez, what's with Charles putting up so many threads so quickly here! An older man, huffa puffa, like me, can't really keep up.
Does anyone know if the prosecutors polled the jury on the on count that they did reach a verdict?
It might prove illuminating as to their deadlock on all the other counts.
This is, after all, a Seattle Jury and for all we know they thought since they did convict on one charge, the others were just not important!

121 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:15:30pm

re: #114 LoFlyer

Personally I have never understood the insanity defense plea. Doesn't matter to the victims whether you are sane or insane, they are still dead. The perpertrator should receive the same punishment, regardless of sanity.

Here here!

I completely agree.

122 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:15:51pm

re: #101 Intrepid

Folks, this guy Haq is insane. He is nuttier than a fruitcake.

Yes, he is guilty of killing those people, but he is indeed insane, legally and psychologically.

He is not a Jihadhii.

He is one who is probably picking flies off the wall to eat, he is that crazy.

First thought: Wonder if it makes his victims and thier families feel any better.

Second thought: I bet he did a great job on his TPS reports.

123 Syrah  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:15:59pm

re: #116 Cognito

If it's true that he's insane -- literally, clinically, chemically insane -- it does matter.

The diagnosis of "Insane" has lost a lot of credibility.

It is becoming more and more difficult to accept it as an excuse.

124 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:16:02pm

re: #97 Syrah

I'm in Portland, like Seattle only worse.

125 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:16:23pm

re: #123 Syrah

The diagnosis of "Insane" has lost a lot of credibility.

It is becoming more and more difficult to accept it as an excuse.

Yes. That's why I said, "if it's true that..."

126 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:16:42pm

re: #110 solomonpanting

I've been selected (not elected) for two weeks of Federal Jury service next month.

HA! So you'll know what it's like to be President Bush!

/Tinfoil hat off.

127 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:16:45pm

re: #101 Intrepid

Folks, this guy Haq is insane. He is nuttier than a fruitcake.

Yes, he is guilty of killing those people, but he is indeed insane, legally and psychologically.

He is not a Jihadhii.

He is one who is probably picking flies off the wall to eat, he is that crazy.

A Palestinian shooting people, with premeditation, while screaming “Death to the Jews!”, wonder how that idea got into his head?

/nope, not a jihadi, nothing to see here, case closed, move along

128 Render  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:17:34pm

Is Naveed Haq currently walking around free in the Seattle area?

Can that jury and judge be investigated for corruption?

Clearly something is very wrong.

NO
EXCUSES,
R

129 savage_nation[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:17:49pm
130 realwest  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:18:02pm

re: #120 realwestPIMF not guilty on one charge.
Anyway, did the prosecutors poll the jury? Anyone know?

131 Sharmuta  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:18:08pm

re: #101 Intrepid

How do you know that?

132 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:18:52pm

re: #116 Cognito

If it's true that he's insane -- literally, clinically, chemically insane -- it does matter.

murder in and of itself,it could be argued,IS an act of insanity...waddaya do now? Slap on the wrist mental incarceration,no civil retribution,no deterrent value in the punishment..fuck'em,you kill you go away to a pen or you die..forgive my harshness,but I live in the real world with real consequences for real actions..

133 Neo Con since 9-11  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:19:15pm

re: #101 Intrepid

Folks, this guy Haq is insane. He is nuttier than a fruitcake.

Yes, he is guilty of killing those people, but he is indeed insane, legally and psychologically.

He is not a Jihadhii.

He is one who is probably picking flies off the wall to eat, he is that crazy.

Banging your head on the floor 5 times a day and listening to hate filled preachers is bound to cause some brain damage but he inflicted that damage on himself so I don't count that as insanity.

134 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:19:33pm

re: #128 Render

Is Naveed Haq currently walking around free in the Seattle area?

No.

135 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:19:54pm

Sometimes, the reasons behind the crime just dont matter. This guy walked in and shot 6 innocent women, killing 1 of them. I could care less whether he was a jihadi or imagined they were beaming evil thoughts into his brain or he was too stupid to realize they could die or whatever BS excuse the defense tried. The bastard deserves to die screaming.

136 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:20:05pm

re: #130 realwest

PIMF not guilty on one charge.
Anyway, did the prosecutors poll the jury? Anyone know?

That's only in capital punishment cases.

137 Intrepid  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:20:12pm

re: #106 Charles

And that makes him different from any other jihadi murderer who slaughters Jews... how, exactly?

Because our system of justice allows for nutbags who are considered "insane", or "of diminished capacity" under law to be considered not guilty (but they should go immediately to a mental health facility!)

Not every killer of Jews is a jihadhii!

Sometimes, they're just nutsos!

138 Mich-again  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:20:28pm

re: #116 Cognito

If it's true that he's insane -- literally, clinically, chemically insane -- it does matter.

To be innocent by reason of insanity for committing a premeditated crime, you have to demonstrate that the perp was insane before the crime was actually committed.

139 Syrah  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:20:30pm

re: #124 Killgore Trout

I'm in Portland, like Seattle only worse.

I would agree.

Portland is worse. Not just because of the climate.

If you want gray cloudy rainy but pleasant, La Push could be a paradise for you.

One of the rainiest places on the planet.

140 Noam Sayin'  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:20:39pm

re: #134 Cognito

No.

Where is he imprisoned?

141 Bacchus's daddy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:20:48pm

re: #116 Cognito

If it's true that he's insane -- literally, clinically, chemically insane -- it does matter.

You're right that it does matter; but the foul proscriptions of Islam can produce many of the same outward signs/ symptoms that chemical-imbalance insanity produces. Also, although I doubt it was the case here, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Al-Qaeda training/ training manuals have recognized this "nuance" of our legal system. You know, another instance of using our compassion for those that are "afflicted" by one thing or another, into a despicable weapon against us.

142 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:20:50pm

re: #136 Bob in Breckenridge

That's only in capital punishment cases.

When the verdict is guilty.

143 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:20:54pm

re: #115 MandyManners

So he was "stable" enough to plan this out over a period of time in a way to avoid detection so that he could carry out his plans. He knew right from wrong; he knew murder is against the law in this country. How insane could he be?

144 Racer X  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:21:09pm

It's just a shame this guy did not meet up with an armed security guard (like in Colorado ) during this crime.

145 Sharmuta  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:21:30pm

re: #137 Intrepid

Sorry- premeditation tells me he's not insane.

146 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:21:32pm

You all realize...now pay attention, dammit [whacks knuckles with ruler]...that's better...

You all realize that this is just one more exhibit in the case against the Clinton doctrine of treating Islamofacist terror like a criminal act and expecting our criminal justice (and even civil justice) system to protect us. Insanity or no, using the criminal courts to protect us from terrorism doesn't work by itself and as a primary policy.

Next thing you know they will start letting terrorists that set bombs free...you know, like those Weather Underground people...

Whadda mean "They're out"?

147 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:21:43pm

re: #116 Cognito

There's some grey area here. Wouldn't any suicide bomber be considered insane by some standards? Jose Padilla and Mohamed Atta were batshit insane. I think the Difference here is the influence of Islam. Sure, people do freak out and say Jesus told them to get naked and attack a meter maid with a samurai sword but how many have attended churches to do that? Islam does attract nutters but I'm not sure it can be used as a blanket excuse for Jihad.

148 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:21:44pm

re: #137 Intrepid

He may be nuts but, HE PLANNED IT AND HE HID OUT IN THE LOBBY TO PREVENT DETECTION. Hiding shows that he knew what he was about to do was wrong.

149 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:22:12pm

re: #132 joecitizen

murder in and of itself,it could be argued,IS an act of insanity...waddaya do now? Slap on the wrist mental incarceration,no civil retribution,no deterrent value in the punishment..fuck'em,you kill you go away to a pen or you die..forgive my harshness,but I live in the real world with real consequences for real actions..

Right-thinking people haven't killed the mentally incapable since the Dark Ages.

That's so... seventh century. Not to put too fine a point on it.

(For posterity, and my fans: I have no idea whether this Seattle fellow actually is insane. We're talking purely hypothetically here.)

150 Carridine  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:22:55pm

re: #10 brainwizard73

No one wants to admit to themselves that someone could do things like this in the name of religion...someone always wants to say "it can't happen", but it does. Every century. Apparently we are not studying our history...

That, Wizard, and:

"I can't BELIEVE it! I just can't BELIEVE it could happen! I just can't BELIEVE he could do that to ordinary people... who happen to be Jews..."
151 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:23:12pm

re: #143 reine.de.tout

So he was "stable" enough to plan this out over a period of time in a way to avoid detection so that he could carry out his plans. He knew right from wrong; he knew murder is against the law in this country. How insane could he be?

Bi-polars with med issues can be flaming loons but, he knew what he was doing.

152 Sharmuta  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:23:13pm

re: #149 Cognito

Right-thinking people haven't killed the mentally incapable since the Dark Ages.

So all the nazis were insane?

153 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:23:37pm

re: #149 Cognito

Right-thinking people haven't killed the mentally incapable since the Dark Ages.

That's so... seventh century. Not to put too fine a point on it.

(For posterity, and my fans: I have no idea whether this Seattle fellow actually is insane. We're talking purely hypothetically here.)


and,of course,that's why I added the caveat of 'going to a pen' or penitentiary..

154 savage_nation[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:23:40pm
155 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:23:42pm

re: #139 Syrah

I'm working on relocating to the southern Oregon coast. Very cool, grey and dreary. I'll love it there.

156 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:23:43pm

re: #148 MandyManners

He may be nuts but, HE PLANNED IT AND HE HID OUT IN THE LOBBY TO PREVENT DETECTION. Hiding shows that he knew what he was about to do was wrong.

Alright, quit using common sense...

/Geez.

157 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:24:16pm

Seattle doesn't have a jury pool, they have a kiddie pool. Of course, even a child can see the islamic freak is a cold-blooded killer.

158 Racer X  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:24:33pm

re: #148 MandyManners

He may be nuts but, HE PLANNED IT AND HE HID OUT IN THE LOBBY TO PREVENT DETECTION. Hiding shows that he knew what he was about to do was wrong.

Bingo!

If he didn't know it was wrong why did he hide?

159 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:24:39pm

re: #156 Bob in Breckenridge

Alright, quit using common sense...

/Geez.

It sneaks up on me at times.

160 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:25:02pm

re: #158 Racer X

Bingo!

If he didn't know it was wrong why did he hide?

That's the key for me.

161 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:25:12pm

re: #128 Render

Is Naveed Haq currently walking around free in the Seattle area?

I sincerely doubt that. I'd guess he'd be rearrested and retried on the mistrial counts.

/he was unbelievably, only acquitted on one count of many

162 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:25:13pm

re: #150 Carridine

I bet there were a few of the jurors that just had to believe that this guy was nuts and that evil in the world only existed in Dick Cheney's mind.

To make the connection...thier heads would have exploded.

163 realwest  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:25:26pm

re: #101 Intrepid
and
re: #116 Cognito

Whether or not he was legally insane is a decision usually made (at least in NYS courts) before the defendant goes to trial, as "legally insane" requires that the person be unable to aid in his own defense.
The judge here declared a mistrial. Apparently he didn't believe that THIS jury could ever reach a verdict on the remaining charges.
That means the prosecutors can in fact bring him back on the charges on which the jury reached no verdict. It's too late for him to declare "legally insane" as a defense to the charges.
Something is VERY SERIOUSLY WRONG with this case; all I can guess at is that the prosecutors felt that they had a slam dunk case (see, e.g., the California criminal trials of O.J. and the LA Cops who beat the crap out of Rodney King) and didn't prepare or present their case well enough, due to that overconfidence.

164 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:25:34pm

re: #152 Sharmuta

So all the nazis were insane?

I'd like to think so.

165 MellyMel  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:25:42pm

Unfortunately, I am not surprised at this. When called for jury duty, I basically had to swear I had no opinion on -- well-- pretty much anything. My ability to be impartial meant nothing.

I spoke with several people who had very strong feelings one way or another and some who could barely speak English.

Honest to God, they were picked and I was sent home. I had the audacity to admit I had HEARD about the case of the woman who burned herself with a McD's coffee but didn't really know anything more about it.

/I lost my faith in the justice system that day. No shit.

166 LoFlyer  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:25:52pm

We had an interesting case at my employer about eight years ago. The new Sheriff-elect, Derwin Brown had announced he was "going to clean house" in the corrupt out-going Sidney Dorsey's Sheriffs department. Sid arranged to have his buddies assassinate Brown just days before he was take office. After six months the police finally figured out what was going on and arrested the perpetrators. The two hit men were exonerated in the local court, seems the jury just could not convict with overwhelming evidence because Dorsey had not been brought to trial. They walked. Meanwhile charges were brought against Dorsey and his lawyers asked the trial be moved from the county because of the publicity. Bad move. My ex-wife was involved in the case, and she explained it to me. "folks down their(south Georgia) don't look at things like we do up here. To them its all black or white, no shades of grey. They found Dorsey guilty of murder and sentenced him to life in prison without parole. If he had been tried in DeKalb County, he would have walked, just like his trigger-men.

167 Charles  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:25:53pm

re: #137 Intrepid

Because our system of justice allows for nutbags who are considered "insane", or "of diminished capacity" under law to be considered not guilty (but they should go immediately to a mental health facility!)

Not every killer of Jews is a jihadhii!

Sometimes, they're just nutsos!

Unless you're a psychiatrist and you examined Naveed Haq, you have no more idea of whether he's actually "insane" than I do. You're accepting what the media have told you, despite the fact that he planned the killings carefully and was very clearly motivated by hatred for Jews and anger over the Lebanon War.

His motivation and method of murder was absolutely identical to countless other jihadi murderers. He was no more insane than any other "holy warrior."

168 Carridine  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:26:00pm

re: #162 brainwizard73
Concur your analysis...

/siiiiigh

169 x-ray  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:26:16pm

Not a lawyer but there is a great difference between the meaning of the word "insane" in common parlance and "legally Insane" used in trials.

The ability to plan and recognize that what you are doing will get you in trouble kicks one out of the Legally insane category IIRC.

The article shows he both planned and recognized the risk of getting caught.

170 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:26:19pm

re: #158 Racer X

Bingo!

If he didn't know it was wrong why did he hide?

He must have been scared by all those Jewish women.

171 Sharmuta  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:26:21pm

re: #164 Bob in Breckenridge

Deluded isn't the same as insane, though.

172 pat  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:26:42pm

The verdict is insanity. When Jews and the Bahai die, he may be mad. if he killed a white person it is understandable. I wonder if the prosecutor pointed out that the victims voted Democrat would result in a conviction.

173 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:26:45pm

re: #159 MandyManners

It sneaks up on me at times.

Next time...DUCK!

/Your average Barack Obama supporter...

174 Mich-again  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:26:52pm

re: #149 Cognito

(For posterity, and my fans: I have no idea whether this Seattle fellow actually is insane. We're talking purely hypothetically here.)

Funny how you always seem to emerge from the depths to defend the indefensible with hypothetical bullshit like that.

175 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:27:01pm

re: #151 MandyManners

Bi-polars with med issues can be flaming loons but, he knew what he was doing.

exactly. And if he knew what he was doing - and knew that it was wrong - then he is not "insane" enough to be able to get away with this.

I thought the test for "not guilty by reason of insanity" wasn't whether or not a person was "stable" or "unstable", but it is whether or not they know right from wrong and are cognizant of the fact that what they are doing is wrong.

This guy planned this out, over a period of time, and figured out how to avoid detection - he knew this was wrong.

176 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:27:24pm

re: #152 Sharmuta

So all the nazis were insane?

Insanity will be the new "I'm going to rehab" excuse. Soon EVERYONE in Hollywood will be doing it...

Can't wait to see how long it takes to lock up Tom Cruise.

177 kynna  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:27:25pm

I can't believe how stupid our justice system has become. If someone goes into an Islamic Center (NOT a suggestion!) and does the same thing they'd get life on top of life. And all of us would suffer the pain of being branded hate criminals just for being Americans.

I guess it's okay to murder as long as you've chosen your victims with political correctness in mind. Sheesh.

178 razorbacker  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:27:47pm

re: #101 Intrepid

Folks, this guy Haq is insane. He is nuttier than a fruitcake.

Yes, he is guilty of killing those people, but he is indeed insane, legally and psychologically.

He is not a Jihadhii.

He is one who is probably picking flies off the wall to eat, he is that crazy.

I read once (probably Heinlien) that a murderer found insane should still be executed.

Because if he ever regained his senses the murderer would be so overcome with guilt that he would logically commit suicide.

But that was in a world of fiction.

179 Racer X  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:28:27pm

re: #160 MandyManners

That is the fatal flaw in liberal arguments for death row inmates. They always cry "well, he didn't know right from wrong". BULLSHIT! If you run, hide, lie about the crime, or try to evade the authorities, you know right from wrong!

180 Syrah  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:28:43pm

re: #155 Killgore Trout

I'm working on relocating to the southern Oregon coast. Very cool, grey and dreary. I'll love it there.

Sounds good.

Isn't that kind of climate a little rough on stringed instruments?

181 Intrepid  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:28:53pm

I'm a trial junkie - I'm used to stuff like this.

Juries are notoriously unpredictable, and often disappointing. But please don't read into it an anti-semitic message.

I watched a good part of the trial, and I don't know if I could have gotten past the whole "insanity" thing. And I'm a solid GUILTY for most perps.

182 Mad Mullah  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:28:59pm

Personally, I believe that all Jihadists are mentally not well in the head. I also believe that this particular Jihadist murderer should fry for his crime.

183 Carridine  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:29:13pm

re: #172 pat

"...if the prosecutor pointed out that the victims voted Democrat would result in a conviction?"


Yeah, y'gotta wonder!

/Thanks, Pat... :)

184 paradox42  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:29:16pm

This sonofabitch was totally sane. People who are truly mentally ill are incapable of planning what to have for dinner, much less mass murder, and I speak from personal experience on that. I'm sick of liberals using mental illness to make excuses for evil. Evil is not a mental illness, its a choice. Someone needs to hammer that into the skulls of these idiots, preferably with a real hammer.

185 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:29:17pm

Do we know if there were any muslims in the jury?

186 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:29:29pm

If this Seattle jury can't decide whether this guy is a cold blooded killer, then this Leftist/moral relativism way of thinking has gotten totally out of control.

These are the same people who faint at the sight of Barack H. Obama.
I'm telling ya...this is the decline of western civilization. Happening right before our eyes.

187 Neo Con since 9-11  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:30:17pm

re: #158 Racer X

Bingo!

If he didn't know it was wrong why did he hide?

For purely tactical reasons. I doubt he does believe he did anything wrong. He hid for the same reason my cat hides right before he jumps on a mouse. Hiding sometimes gives you an advantage when trying to kill more efficiently. I think this guy believes he was doing a good thing.

188 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:30:38pm

re: #174 Mich-again

Funny how you always seem to emerge from the depths to defend the indefensible with hypothetical bullshit like that.

I'm not defending anybody, homefry.

Like I said, I've got no idea whether Naveed Haq is insane. I tend to think not, as the only evidence in favor of that notion -- that I'm aware of -- is expert testimony. If he was well and truly crazy before the act in question, I'd expect plenty of tailings from his insanity.

189 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:31:00pm

There's competing views of how

exactly

legal insanity is defined.

/one of my favorite anecdotes from law school is that the perpetrator thinks the gun is a banana, that's insane

190 Timbre  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:31:11pm

At least 1st Lt. Andrew Grayson is acquitted in the Haditha Marine case. This "Naveed Haq" shoots six Jewish women yelling, "Death to the Jews!," and Seattle liberals feel he is mentally ill. Sometimes I wonder about American justice...

191 Carridine  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:31:17pm

re: #184 paradox42
Concur yr analysis: think Hannibal Lecter: SANE and uber-INTELLIGENT, and SERIOUSLY DANGEROUS!

192 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:31:25pm

re: #186 DesertSage

If this Seattle jury can't decide whether this guy is a cold blooded killer, then this Leftist/moral relativism way of thinking has gotten totally out of control.

These are the same people who faint at the sight of Barack H. Obama.
I'm telling ya...this is the decline of western civilization. Happening right before our eyes.

When reached for comment Michelle Obama had this to say, "You know, for the first time in my adult life, I am proud of a Seattle jury."

193 BignJames  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:31:29pm

I think Jeffrey Dahmer was nuts....but we still locked the sob up.

194 Bacchus's daddy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:31:30pm

Although I've had nothing to do with criminal law since law school, I think the "hiding" should have carried quite a bit of weight (probably more than it did). Implicit in the act of "hiding", if that is what he did, is the mental recognition of a reason to hide. Maybe the Seattle jurors were persuaded that he was playing a game of "hide-and-seek" with his imaginary friend.

195 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:31:49pm

re: #171 Sharmuta

Deluded isn't the same as insane, though.

Good point. Delusional and insane...The former understands but sees no problem, the latter cannot comprehend.

196 LoFlyer  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:32:37pm

Guys, I am checking out on this one, Good to see you Savage, catch y'all on the flip side!

197 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:32:42pm

re: #152 Sharmuta

So all the nazis were insane?

I said 'right-thinking.' And no, the Nazis weren't right-thinking.

Obviously.

198 savage_nation[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:32:43pm
199 Intrepid  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:32:58pm

re: #167 Charles

True, but I read details and watched on what used to be CTV - how else are we to know?

I'm not excusing this man - FAR BE IT FROM ME TO DO THIS!

200 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:33:32pm

Some good news:

From a CBS poll ... Key finding: "Twelve percent of Democrats say they will support McCain in the general election. That's higher than the 8 percent of Democrats who defected to President Bush in 2004. Nearly a quarter of Clinton supporters say they will back McCain instead of Obama in the general election."

(The same poll had McCain down 6% -- 48% Obama to 42%McCain with 6% undecided)

CBS polls usually oversample Dems

201 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:33:47pm

re: #188 Cognito

Homefry?

202 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:34:07pm

re: #201 MandyManners

Homefry?

Yes ma'am?

203 Noam Sayin'  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:34:17pm

re: #189 Killian Bundy

So, if I defend my home with a 9mm, .380 ACP "banana," I stand a better chance with the jury?

/

204 Neo Con since 9-11  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:34:51pm

re: #200 hermeneutics

Some good news:

From a CBS poll ... Key finding: "Twelve percent of Democrats say they will support McCain in the general election. That's higher than the 8 percent of Democrats who defected to President Bush in 2004. Nearly a quarter of Clinton supporters say they will back McCain instead of Obama in the general election."

(The same poll had McCain down 6% -- 48% Obama to 42%McCain with 6% undecided)

CBS polls usually oversample Dems

Because Republicans are normally at work when the pollster calls.

205 realwest  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:35:24pm

As Mark Twain once said (paraphrasing here)"The only problem with the American Criminal Justice system is that it requires a jury of people who never read newspapers, talk to their friends, relatives and neighbors, read books or think."

Today he'd no doubt add in TV, radio and blogs, but the point still remains.
And I STILL don't understand, as a lawyer, how the jury could acquit him on one charge but not reach a verdict on the other charges, if, in fact, they believed he was legally insane on the count on which they acquited him.
Washington State could benefit greatly by New York State's example; the issue of "insanity" is dealt with before a trial commences and is usually NOT left to juries to decide, but rather the judge after both prosecution and defense experts have had their say.

206 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:35:30pm

re: #134 Cognito

No.

He's on bail, and has been for some time. Prove me wrong.

Insanity isn't a valid defense for premeditated murder, but the point here is that the jury didn't find him innocent or guilty or insane.

They deadlocked.

207 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:36:10pm

re: #198 savage_nation

Actually, I'd bet dollars to donuts that the jury was secretly happy that Jews were killed. How else can you come up with a verdict like that?

That might be a little harsh. It is possible for people to be so stupid that they get lost in this stuff--it isn't like dealing with issues of legal insanity is as easy as being a community organizer.

All I am saying is that it is at least possible that the jurors just messed up not due to any clear bias, but just that they weren't that bright and didn't get what was going on.

[ducks behind bullet proof glass]

208 solomonpanting  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:36:12pm

Haq told the forensic psychologist he wanted to "commit suicide by cop", intending to take hostages, wait for the police to show up and go out in a blaze of gunfire.

209 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:36:29pm

re: #204 Neo Con since 9-11

Because Republicans are normally at work when the pollster calls.

Or hung up on if they admit it...

210 Racer X  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:36:34pm

re: #203 Noam Sayin'

LOL!

"I am not sure what happened officer. I started to peel this here banana, when the guy who was breaking into my house just seemed to explode right before my eyes. Weird as hell. I still don't understand it".

211 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:36:42pm

re: #206 really grumpy big dog Johnson

He's on bail, and has been for some time. Prove me wrong.

Insanity isn't a valid defense for premeditated murder, but the point here is that the jury didn't find him innocent or guilty or insane.

They deadlocked.

Welp. They led him from the courtroom in handcuffs. I don't think they do that to free men, as far as I know.

212 paradox42  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:37:04pm

re: #197 Cognito

And no, the Nazis weren't right-thinking.

Oh yes they were. They were sane and perfectly aware of what they were doing. Do you have any idea how much planing went into the Holocaust. They kept a paper trail of everything, they passed laws to allow it. They used their knowledge of engineering and science to build death factories. The Holocaust was architected by intelligent, rational, sane, and utterly evil men. Hitler may have been mad, but Eichman, Himmel, Mengele, Heydrich, and Goering were plenty sane. They knew what they were doing was wrong. They just didn't think they'd get caught.

213 Malleus Dei  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:37:22pm

The penalty for murder by reason of insanity should be death by firing squad.

Why not? We shoot mad dogs for far less reason. Why not insane murderers as well?

214 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:37:31pm

re: #200 hermeneutics

Some good news:

From a CBS poll ... Key finding: "Twelve percent of Democrats say they will support McCain in the general election. That's higher than the 8 percent of Democrats who defected to President Bush in 2004. Nearly a quarter of Clinton supporters say they will back McCain instead of Obama in the general election."

(The same poll had McCain down 6% -- 48% Obama to 42%McCain with 6% undecided)

CBS polls usually oversample Dems

Rumor has it Bill Clinton did/does, too...funny that never came up during the campaign.

215 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:37:31pm

re: #106 Charles

And that makes him different from any other jihadi murderer who slaughters Jews... how, exactly?

He just proves that it is something ya gotta be crazy to do. No sane person would strap on explosives and do what they do. Statistics show that 50% of all people are below average, and voter statistics bear it out.

216 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:37:52pm

re: #186 DesertSage

If this Seattle jury can't decide whether this guy is a cold blooded killer, then this Leftist/moral relativism way of thinking has gotten totally out of control.

These are the same people who faint at the sight of Barack H. Obama.
I'm telling ya...this is the decline of western civilization. Happening right before our eyes.


if so,it's gonna have to decline with my cold,dead fingers clinging to it..

217 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:37:52pm

re: #212 paradox42

Oh yes they were. They were sane and perfectly aware of what they were doing. Do you have any idea how much planing went into the Holocaust. They kept a paper trail of everything, they passed laws to allow it. They used their knowledge of engineering and science to build death factories. The Holocaust was architected by intelligent, rational, sane, and utterly evil men. Hitler may have been mad, but Eichman, Himmel, Mengele, Heydrich, and Goering were plenty sane. They knew what they were doing was wrong. They just didn't think they'd get caught.

Eh?

You're arguing when I say that Nazis weren't right-thinking folks?

Really?

218 savage_nation[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:37:55pm
219 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:38:00pm

re: #180 Syrah

It's not really tough on the instruments but it's tough on tools. Salt air is a bitch on steel.

220 Racer X  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:38:20pm

re: #206 really grumpy big dog Johnson

He's on bail, and has been for some time.


Wait a minute. You're saying this nutjob is walking the streets of Seattle?

221 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:38:50pm

re: #220 Racer X

Wait a minute. You're saying this nutjob is walking the streets of Seattle?

Yeah, I'd like to see proof of that myself, since that seems to be the order of the day.

222 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:39:02pm

re: #213 Malleus Dei

The penalty for murder by reason of insanity should be death by firing squad.

Why not? We shoot mad dogs for far less reason. Why not insane murderers as well?

Because they're humans.

223 nadnerb  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:39:19pm

So does this scumbag wait in jail for a retrial or does he get turned loose to do it again?

224 realwest  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:39:23pm

re: #206 really grumpy big dog Johnson Um, no they did acquit him of one charge: "The jurors reached a partial verdict on only one of the 15 counts against Haq, finding him not guilty of attempted first-degree murder of one of the women."

225 MellyMel  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:39:25pm

The bottom line for me is:

If you are sane enough to watch your own ass (plan it out and/or over up your crime), you have at least enough mentality to care about someone elses. Having compassion is a whole different issue.

226 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:39:30pm

re: #222 MandyManners

Because they're humans.

Bravo.

227 paradox42  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:39:41pm

re: #217 Cognito

I'm saying the Nazi's were sane. Evil beyond belief, but sane. The Holocaust was way too premeditated to be the act of raving lunatics. That is what makes it so sick.

228 Noam Sayin'  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:39:41pm

re: #210 Racer X

Would it be advisable to try to take a bite from the "banana," even though its semi-auto?

229 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:39:49pm

re: #163 realwest

I don't know what definition of legal insanity they use out there but, generally the defendant can't assist in his defense, has little or no grip on reality, and, at the time, didn't know he was committing the crime he was committing.

/sort of like Colin Ferguson

230 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:39:52pm

re: #212 paradox42

Himmler, not Himmel. And they never worried about getting caught because they NEVER thought they'd lose.

231 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:39:57pm

re: #204 Neo Con since 9-11

Because Republicans are normally at work when the pollster calls.

Yes, and because they poll registered, not likely voters.

The breakdown was 40-33-27 (D-I-R). Have the Reps really slipped that far behind?

232 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:40:38pm

re: #227 paradox42

I'm saying the Nazi's were sane. Evil beyond belief, but sane. The Holocaust was way too premeditated to be the act of raving lunatics. That is what makes it so sick.

Yeah. Me too.

I guess we have different definitions for 'right-thinking.'

233 pat  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:40:40pm

NYNana, here?

234 Neo Con since 9-11  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:41:02pm

re: #213 Malleus Dei

The penalty for murder by reason of insanity should be death by firing squad.

Why not? We shoot mad dogs for far less reason. Why not insane murderers as well?

Because we are obligated to treat humans better than other animals. This is the same kind of thinking behind the PETA ads equating the Holocaust with the slaughter of chickens

235 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:41:03pm

re: #213 Malleus Dei

The penalty for murder by reason of insanity should be death by firing squad.

Why not? We shoot mad dogs for far less reason. Why not insane murderers as well?

The verdict should be guilty but insane. After that stick them in a hospital and drive them to suicide.

236 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:41:18pm

re: #205 realwest

As Mark Twain once said (paraphrasing here)"The only problem with the American Criminal Justice system is that it requires a jury of people who never read newspapers, talk to their friends, relatives and neighbors, read books or think."

Today he'd no doubt add in TV, radio and blogs, but the point still remains.
And I STILL don't understand, as a lawyer, how the jury could acquit him on one charge but not reach a verdict on the other charges, if, in fact, they believed he was legally insane on the count on which they acquited him.
Washington State could benefit greatly by New York State's example; the issue of "insanity" is dealt with before a trial commences and is usually NOT left to juries to decide, but rather the judge after both prosecution and defense experts have had their say.

realwest, if the murder victims wouldn't have been Jewish, the jurors would have at least found him guilty, but insane.

Because the murder victims were Jewish, he probbly won't be charged of murder, he'll probably be sent to a country club mental hospital for a few years, he'll tell a "doctor" he's now OK, and he'll be back out on the street.

Oh, Justice will come to him someday, but for now, the families of the murder victims will have to accept that because their murdered loved ones were Jewish, the American justice system isn't equal for them.

Justice is only blind, unless you're a Jew.

237 savage_nation[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:41:29pm
238 BignJames  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:41:53pm

re: #232 Cognito


Right thinking = someone who agrees w/you

239 Racer X  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:41:57pm

re: #228 Noam Sayin'

Would it be advisable to try to take a bite from the "banana," even though its semi-auto?

No, but It would be right neighborly to offer a bite to an unwanted guest in your home.

;-)

240 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:42:05pm

OT:

Have I heard something like this before? ...

Obama sez:

"This isn’t the Tony Rezko I knew."

The media collectively shrug their shoulders and say:

"Gosh, Barack. You're right. This isn't the Tony that we knew, either."

{group hug}


/change this

241 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:42:06pm

re: #218 savage_nation

I just cant wrap my brain around this. The guy wacks a bunch of people and the jury cant find any wrongdoing? shit!

The jury didn't acquit him, they couldn't determine if he was guilty of murder (and likely a whole host of other charges) or whether he was criminally insane (and therefore likely to be confined to a secure mental institution until called up for the Obama cabinet). I would imagine that all the jurors would have likely found that he committed the crimes, but that they couldn't agree on whether his culpability was reduced due to his mental capacity and/or insanity.

I don't like it, but hopefully the retrial will get him.

242 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:42:33pm

re: #237 savage_nation

They turned in their membership card to the human race when they committed murder. Sorry

Like I said, killing the mentally incapable is something that smacks of -- ahem -- seventh century thinking.

243 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:42:50pm

re: #203 Noam Sayin'

So, if I defend my home with a 9mm, .380 ACP "banana," I stand a better chance with the jury?

/you'll also need to fool the psychiatrists for both sides or hire the "better" one for your side

244 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:43:04pm

re: #241 brainwizard73

The jury didn't acquit him, they couldn't determine if he was guilty of murder (and likely a whole host of other charges) or whether he was criminally insane (and therefore likely to be confined to a secure mental institution until called up for the Obama cabinet). I would imagine that all the jurors would have likely found that he committed the crimes, but that they couldn't agree on whether his culpability was reduced due to his mental capacity and/or insanity.

I don't like it, but hopefully the retrial will get him.

Tool alert, quoting myself.

I do see there was one charge in which he got an acquittal. Don't know why...

245 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:43:25pm

re: #216 joecitizen

if so,it's gonna have to decline with my cold,dead fingers clinging to it..

Ah, hell...they'll send you to prison or a re-education camp long before your fingers will be dead and cold.

Repeat after me:
must. think. like. an. Obamatron. to. stay. out. of. prison.

246 Neo Con since 9-11  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:44:28pm

re: #231 hermeneutics

Yes, and because they poll registered, not likely voters.

The breakdown was 40-33-27 (D-I-R). Have the Reps really slipped that far behind?

I think those high registered D's and low registered R numbers could be part of operation chaos

247 razorbacker  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:44:31pm

I wonder what Haq's lawyers are doing right now. After a nonverdict like this, do they go out and celebrate? Shake their heads sadly? Breathe a mighty sigh of relief? Go home, kiss their kids and say 'Guess what Daddy managed to do today?'

I wonder.

248 Inquisitive  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:44:32pm

re: #205 realwest

As Mark Twain once said (paraphrasing here)"The only problem with the American Criminal Justice system is that it requires a jury of people who never read newspapers, talk to their friends, relatives and neighbors, read books or think."

Today he'd no doubt add in TV, radio and blogs, but the point still remains.
And I STILL don't understand, as a lawyer, how the jury could acquit him on one charge but not reach a verdict on the other charges, if, in fact, they believed he was legally insane on the count on which they acquited him.Washington State could benefit greatly by New York State's example; the issue of "insanity" is dealt with before a trial commences and is usually NOT left to juries to decide, but rather the judge after both prosecution and defense experts have had their say.

"In written questions to the judge, the jurors asked for further clarification of the legal definition of insanity. Kallas declined to help them, saying she could not answer beyond what was provided in their instruction"

I don't think they acquitted him due to insanity if they were still asking for a clarification of the legal definition of insanity

249 Intrepid  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:44:33pm

Folks, if you're really pissed, then blame the prosecutors in Seattle for messing up this case.

If Haq is a jihadhi, then why did they go after him as a simple murderer?

He should have been tossed over to the feds!

250 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:44:34pm

re: #240 really grumpy big dog Johnson

OT:

Have I heard something like this before? ...

Obama sez:

{group hug}


/change this

Another blog had this line (paraphrasing):

From exactly which turnip truck did Barack Obama just fall?

251 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:45:00pm

re: #237 savage_nation

They turned in their membership card to the human race when they committed murder. Sorry

savage- Not if they did not understand what they did. Should they ever be free? No.

252 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:45:05pm

re: #218 savage_nation

I just cant wrap my brain around this. The guy wacks a bunch of people and the jury cant find any wrongdoing? shit!

The victims were Jewish.

Show me a moonbat who doesn't support the terror inflicted on Israel on a daily basis.

253 Syrah  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:45:05pm

re: #204 Neo Con since 9-11

Because Republicans are normally at work when the pollster calls.

Political polling is usually done in a very short space of time, usually in a one or two day period.

When the polling is done over a week, or better yet, over a month, it becomes much more reliable.

Polling is becoming more difficult as households abandon landlines for cell-phones. Polling people by calling them on their cell-phone is still in its infancy, but will become more prevalent over time. Cell-phone polls are much more difficult to conduct, the response rates are very low and the results are difficult to weight. They should still be considered experimental.

I would expect there to be a lot of volatility in this election cycles polling numbers with all of the big polling houses.

Keep an eye on the "Margins of Error" that are reported. We can expect to see this number rise over the next couple of years.

254 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:45:11pm

re: #233 pat

NYNana, here?

no,in new york.

255 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:45:51pm

re: #238 BignJames

Right thinking = someone who agrees w/you

In a sense, I suppose. According to one dictionary it's someone who has "acceptably proper or correct convictions, beliefs, etc."

I'd say the Nazis didn't have those.

This has got to be the goofiest LGF tangent I've ever witnessed, honestly.

256 solomonpanting  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:46:07pm

re: #244 brainwizard73

I do see there was one charge in which he got an acquittal. Don't know why...

He was acquitted on the charge of first degree attemped murder for the first woman he shot.

257 Charles  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:46:12pm

re: #247 razorbacker

I wonder what Haq's lawyers are doing right now. After a nonverdict like this, do they go out and celebrate? Shake their heads sadly? Breathe a mighty sigh of relief? Go home, kiss their kids and say 'Guess what Daddy managed to do today?'

I wonder.

From the article:

While presenting his insanity defense, Haq's attorneys said he posed a risk to society and should instead be locked in a state mental hospital for the rest of his life.

Even his own lawyers wanted him locked away for life. But the jury said no.

258 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:46:13pm

re: #240 really grumpy big dog Johnson

OT:

Have I heard something like this before? ...

Obama sez:

{group hug}


/change this


Since Barack doesn't appear to know any of his bobos, may we conclude he has been giving soaring oratory for so long and so loud he never thought to listen to his "friends"?

259 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:46:31pm

re: #237 savage_nation

They turned in their membership card to the human race when they committed murder. Sorry

The penalty for any murder should be death, the only optionshould be the method. for some, crucifiction is too good. Same goes for child rapists.

260 Noam Sayin'  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:46:37pm

re: #243 Killian Bundy

/you'll also need to fool the psychiatrists for both sides or hire the "better" one for your side

/I'm going to need a "bunch" more Walther bananas, and maybe get one of those "banana" hangers they sell at Big, Bang and Beyond.

G'night, folks. Keep Cog's back against the wall.

I recommend staples.

261 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:46:52pm

re: #246 Neo Con since 9-11

I think those high registered D's and low registered R numbers could be part of operation chaos

Oh, that's very interesting. I'm still looking at the poll and I just noticed, too, that the last CBS poll had Obama 11% higher than McCain. Trending McCain!

Now, if we could pin Rezko to Obama's house (which is true), and if the media was responsible enough to show Obama in a true light, his numbers should go down even further.

262 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:46:55pm

re: #237 savage_nation

They turned in their membership card to the human race when they committed murder. Sorry


I agree 100%.

Prison overcrowding would drop 50% immediatly.

263 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:46:56pm

re: #252 republic

The victims were Jewish.

Show me a moonbat who doesn't support the terror inflicted on Israel on a daily basis.

The fact that the victims were Jewish is irrelevant.

264 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:48:05pm

re: #253 Syrah

May 30 through June 3 (five days)
MOE of 3%

265 pat  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:48:13pm

re: #257 Charles

No, I think he should hang at that Lawyers house for a long weekend. Meet the Fam.

266 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:48:34pm

re: #245 DesertSage

Ah, hell...they'll send you to prison or a re-education camp long before your fingers will be dead and cold.

Repeat after me:
must. think. like. an. Obamatron. to. stay. out. of. prison.


or,take to the hills and ride to the sound of the guns? I'm just sayin'...

267 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:48:37pm

re: #247 razorbacker

I wonder what Haq's lawyers are doing right now. After a nonverdict like this, do they go out and celebrate? Shake their heads sadly? Breathe a mighty sigh of relief? Go home, kiss their kids and say 'Guess what Daddy managed to do today?'

I wonder.

I think there's a pretty good chance that they are Israel haters.

268 realwest  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:48:52pm

re: #229 Killian Bundy Yeah, or the Son of Sam (but he got convicted anyway, the judge not finding it "credible" that his dog told him to kill those people).

And that's what perlexes me about this whole case.
If he really was "legally insane" again, at the risk of being redundant, that decision in at least New York State, is usually made before the trial before the jury begins, as IF the defendant WAS legally insane, he would be unable to assist his defense lawyers in any significant way.
How the hell did Washington State reach the brilliant idea that the issue of his legal sanity should be left up to a jury?

269 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:49:11pm

re: #263 Bob in Breckenridge

The fact that the victims were Jewish is irrelevant.

Obviously not.

270 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:49:13pm

Wow.

This has been one fascinating and insightful discussion.

Apparently some of you guys wouldn't mind rolling back at least some laws to the seventh century.

271 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:49:18pm

re: #242 Cognito

Like I said, killing the mentally incapable is something that smacks of -- ahem -- seventh century thinking.

The term 'mentally incapable' means something entirely different today than it did in the seventh century.
Today, with this lefty moral relativism, everyone who commits a crime is "mentally incapable" in one way or another. That's the problem with moral relativism, there's no right and wrong.....everything is relative.

272 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:49:24pm

re: #242 Cognito

Like I said, killing the mentally incapable is something that smacks of -- ahem -- seventh century thinking.

That's what the Nazis did, too.

273 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:49:35pm

re: #211 Cognito

Welp. They led him from the courtroom in handcuffs. I don't think they do that to free men, as far as I know.

And how do you know that? Link? I asked you to prove me wrong, not make a statement to the contrary. You made the original assertion, so back it up.

274 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:49:46pm

re: #269 republic

Obviously not.

Not? Why not?

275 paradox42  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:49:57pm

re: #265 pat

No, I think he should hang at that Lawyers house for a long weekend. Meet the Fam.

As long as he hangs, I'm not picky about location.

276 Racer X  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:50:49pm

I have a real hard time believing that the jury is intent on letting this guy go just because the victims were Jews.

277 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:50:50pm

re: #271 DesertSage

The term 'mentally incapable' means something entirely different today than it did in the seventh century.
Today, with this lefty moral relativism, everyone who commits a crime is "mentally incapable" in one way or another. That's the problem with moral relativism, there's no right and wrong.....everything is relative.

Forget all that. I'm talking about true mental incapacity, in the common sense way.

278 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:50:55pm

OT---

All the articles (like the one in the WaPo) about how the world thinks that Barack Obama's milestone is somehow good for them because we (America/ns) will be more "tolerant" of "people who are different than us.

Let me be clear: You can be different all you want...but when you strap on a vest of explosives and try to kill me, my family or my countrymen, nothing you say or do will make me tolerant of you, your ideology or your supporters.

279 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:50:57pm

re: #270 Cognito

Wow.

This has been one fascinating and insightful discussion.

Apparently some of you guys wouldn't mind rolling back at least some laws to the seventh century.

Cognito, they execute murders often, currently, in many states.

280 Syrah  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:51:10pm

re: #264 hermeneutics

I would guess that they are under reporting their MOE. The whole cell-phone issue is a real problem, especially with younger households.

281 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:51:11pm

re: #269 republic

Obviously not.

I'm specifically talking about if the guy is insane.

282 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:51:42pm

re: #266 joecitizen

or,take to the hills and ride to the sound of the guns? I'm just sayin'...

I'm with you buddy.

283 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:52:47pm

re: #248 Inquisitive

they were still asking for a clarification of the legal definition of insanity

Both sides and the judge agree on the jury instructions before the trial. The judge instructs the jury at the end of the trial.

/the jury has to figure it out from the instructions they were given

284 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:52:49pm

re: #258 brainwizard73

Since Barack doesn't appear to know any of his bobos, may we conclude he has been giving soaring oratory for so long and so loud he never thought to listen to his "friends"?

Rezko swung some sort of sweetheart real estate deal for Obama in 2005, while he was under indictment.

The media will never chase this one down. Screws up the coronation.

285 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:52:59pm

re: #269 republic

Did you read all my previous posts regarding this topic?

286 razorbacker  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:53:01pm

re: #267 republic

I think there's a pretty good chance that they are Israel haters.

I don't know. I've asked my godson if he's every had problems representing someone he believes guilty.

He got quiet. Took another drink of beer. And asked to change the subject.

It's a duty to the law, he says. And sometimes it's hard to do your duty.

287 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:53:04pm

re: #280 Syrah

I don't know about underreporting the MOE ... could be true. I do find the cell phone issues fascinating, though. I was polled a few weeks ago on my cell phone.

CBS has one of the worst records anyway. I watch Rasm. and Survey USA. Lately, Gallup has been dreadful.

288 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:53:25pm

re: #274 Bob in Breckenridge

Not? Why not?

The man is not being punished for killing 6 human beings, his own words say that he planned it, and he said that he killed them because they were Jewish.

Period.

289 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:53:45pm

re: #282 DesertSage

Like I said earlier tonight, save room on the last chopper for me.

290 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:53:46pm

re: #273 really grumpy big dog Johnson

And how do you know that? Link? I asked you to prove me wrong, not make a statement to the contrary. You made the original assertion, so back it up.

Goober. You're the one who made the assertion that he's free on bail. Why don't you back that up?

Or do you just throw out random bits of fiction for fun?

While you think on it, enjoy the first sentence of the third paragraph here, and the last sentence here.

I look forward to your links, in response.

291 NY Nana  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:53:49pm

re: #27 DesertSage

It is bad here...Jewish blood is cheap. There have been a number of heinous hate crimes, and to get them labeled as 'hate'? And for some reason they seem to happen in the blue states.

/Just a coincidence I am sure.

292 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:53:50pm

re: #277 Cognito

Forget all that. I'm talking about true mental incapacity, in the common sense way.

You're going to try and get common sense from a Seattle jury?
Good luck with that.

293 Intrepid  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:54:38pm

And if this man Haq is mentally retarded? What say you?

(not saying he is, but if he is?)

294 realwest  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:54:49pm

re: #269 republic With all due respect, my friend, it is irrelevent if in fact the jury decided on the one count of which he was found not guilty, that he was indeed legally insane.
In theory, that self same jury would find a Jew innocent of going into a mosque or madrassa and killing muslims and screaming death to the Palestinians.
The issue of the legal sanity of a mass murderer should NEVER be left up to a jury to decide, because all they will hear are the Prosecution and Defense lawyers "experts" prattle on and on and on about what is or is not "legally sane".

295 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:54:51pm

re: #281 Bob in Breckenridge

I'm specifically talking about if the guy is insane.

You said the fact that the victims were Jewish was irrelevant, and I said, obviously not, meaning, it was relevant, otherwise he would have been found guilty.

296 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:55:33pm

re: #279 republic

Cognito, they execute murders often, currently, in many states.

I'm not talking about murderers. Obviously. I'm talking about the mentally incapable.

A number of people here have said they deserve capital punishment. Which is an astonishing thing. To the point of being bizarre, and certainly fodder for people who dislike LGF.

297 yenta-fada  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:55:37pm

If this isn't a clear act of domestic terrorism, I don't know what is. Do you really think that Jewish organizations in Seattle feel safe after this rampage? Who is going to pay for all of the extra protection they will require, especially now that people see that you can get away with murder with clueless juries and a biased system that thinks all assholes are victims who cannot be held responsible for their actions?
No Jewish person will be allowed to kill an attacking Muslim, even in self-defense without being pilloried. Jews have no appetite for winning Darwin awards.

298 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:55:41pm

re: #289 brainwizard73

Like I said earlier tonight, save room on the last chopper for me.

Joe and I are riding (I hope he meant motorcycle), but a chopper will work too.

299 razorbacker  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:55:44pm

I'm depressed.

I'm going to bed.

Tomorrow will be another day.

Likely full of the same old sh*t.

300 NY Nana  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:55:50pm

re: #270 Cognito

Wow.

This has been one fascinating and insightful discussion.

Apparently some of you guys wouldn't mind rolling back at least some laws to the seventh century.

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.

301 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:55:52pm

re: #284 really grumpy big dog Johnson

Rezko swung some sort of sweetheart real estate deal for Obama in 2005, while he was under indictment.

The media will never chase this one down. Screws up the coronation.

Right, knew that about the deal. Wouldn't you think that Rezko could make life really hard on Obama since that deal doesn't look good, and with a little more, it really could be a scandal waiting to happen?

Idea: Best story would be if HRC somehow manages to rescue the Dems if/when Obama melts down...That would be story...sell a lot of papers.

302 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:56:30pm

re: #299 razorbacker

Good night, Razor. Maybe we'll get some blockbuster news tomorrow that will make us smile. We can hope!

303 Bacchus's daddy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:56:37pm

re: #263 Bob in Breckenridge

The fact that the victims were Jewish is irrelevant.

I'd like to think that a crime victim being Jewish in a random crime of theft/ violence would be irrelevant, bus this case had some high political charge to it. Perhaps the victims being Jewish was less relevant than the defendant being an "oppressed" Muslim. I simply don't know, but I suspect the group identity of one/ or the other/ or both could have come into play. Our country is so very saturated with identity politics- when an atmosphere pervaded by identity politics empowers jurors of potentially moonbat politics, ugly things can happen.

304 solomonpanting  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:57:20pm

re: #50 solomonpanting

He should have been prosecuted for a hate crime.
//

Haq was charged with one count of aggravated first-degree murder for slaying employee Pamela Waechter; five counts of attempted first-degree murder for shooting five other women; one count of first-degree kidnapping; one count of unlawful imprisonment; one count of first-degree burglary; and six counts of violating the state's hate-crime law.

Link

305 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:57:23pm

re: #262 republic

I agree 100%.

Prison overcrowding would drop 50% immediatly.

Time for my soapbox. I oppose sentences longer then 20 years, and total prison time over 25 years. Anything beyond that is pointless. If the purpose of longer sentences is to protect the public, its pointless. Execute them instead, and guarantee that society is safe.
I would add rapists to the death list, also three peat offenders. They have chosen not to conform to society so society is better off without them.
Make prison harsh. prison food should be lousy tasting but nutricious enough to sustain them. No TV, no books, no pictures or posters. Allow them one religious manuscript, a bible, or the satanic verses, but only a text fromn a recognized religion.
Make them work. No work, no eat.
For minor offences, create work farms or factories. IBP could benefit from having a few lousy pick pockets rather then Messicons.
As far as the death sentence, only allow lethal injection for those who choose immediate execution, within 48 hours of conviction. For the rest, a Texas rope dance or what ever method suits the jury.

306 Syrah  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:57:30pm

re: #287 hermeneutics

I don't know about underreporting the MOE ... could be true. I do find the cell phone issues fascinating, though. I was polled a few weeks ago on my cell phone.

CBS has one of the worst records anyway. I watch Rasm. and Survey USA. Lately, Gallup has been dreadful.

You participated in a cellphone poll?

What was it about?

Do you recall what polling house it was through?

307 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:57:42pm

re: #291 NY Nana

It is bad here...Jewish blood is cheap. There have been a number of heinous hate crimes, and to get them labeled as 'hate'? And for some reason they seem to happen in the blue states.

/Just a coincidence I am sure.

A person throws a tomato against a mosque, and is charged with a hate crime, but a worthless scumbag who only deserves death, with premeditation, murders 6 Jews, and they don't even convict him of murder.

308 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:57:49pm

re: #298 DesertSage

Joe and I are riding (I hope he meant motorcycle), but a chopper will work too.

Aaaahhhh...didn't catch that nuance...yes, got it now...UH-60 me to a place reasonably resembling Valhalla.

309 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:58:23pm

re: #300 NY Nana

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.

I'm not talking about mere eye-for-eye. I'm talking about advocating for the execution of the mentally incapacitated.

That's astonishing.

310 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:58:38pm

re: #298 DesertSage

Joe and I are riding (I hope he meant motorcycle), but a chopper will work too.

chopper,horse,chopper..whatever it takes.

311 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:58:44pm

re: #299 razorbacker

I'm depressed.

I'm going to bed.

Tomorrow will be another day.

Likely full of the same old sh*t.

Maybe if you are really good and say your prayers the Shrew will give you a present tomorrow! Off to bed with you now...

312 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:58:49pm

re: #268 realwest

And that's what perlexes me about this whole case.
If he really was "legally insane" again, at the risk of being redundant, that decision in at least New York State, is usually made before the trial before the jury begins, as IF the defendant WAS legally insane, he would be unable to assist his defense lawyers in any significant way.

How the hell did Washington State reach the brilliant idea that the issue of his legal sanity should be left up to a jury?

Now that you mention it, that's the way it works here too. The judge determines the defendant's legal insanity before the trial and, if judged insane, off the defendant goes to the asylum, indefinitely or until he's adjudged sane enough to be tried, and then the process starts again.

/this must have been some type of temporary insanity defense

313 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:59:10pm

re: #270 Cognito

Wow.

This has been one fascinating and insightful discussion.

Apparently some of you guys wouldn't mind rolling back at least some laws to the seventh century.

Well, gee cog, maybe the seventh century had a few things right. Studies PROVE that the DP deters crime IF it is applied swiftly.

314 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:59:40pm

re: #208 solomonpanting

Haq told the forensic psychologist he wanted to "commit suicide by cop", intending to take hostages, wait for the police to show up and go out in a blaze of gunfire.

Too bad he didn't get his wish.

315 Inquisitive  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 9:59:55pm

re: #283 Killian Bundy

Both sides and the judge agree on the jury instructions before the trial. The judge instructs the jury at the end of the trial.

/the jury has to figure it out from the instructions they were given

okay that is understood--just using this to reference a reply to the other post that ---they could not have acquitted on one charge due to insanity if they were still asking questions for clarification on the legal difinition of insanity.

316 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:00:06pm

re: #313 JeremyR

Well, gee cog, maybe the seventh century had a few things right. Studies PROVE that the DP deters crime IF it is applied swiftly.

You can't deter the mentally incapable with logic, man.

That's what makes them mentally incapable.

This conversation has been a real eye-opener, I've got to tell you.

317 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:00:11pm

re: #306 Syrah

No, I don't recall -- they woke me up and I was still dazed. I lied, Syrah. I said I was a twenty-something Hispanic woman who supported Obama. Then they asked for my zipcode. I couldn't think of any that would fit my profile so I gave the true zipcode. Long silence ensued. Then the lady thanked me for my time.

318 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:01:21pm

re: #309 Cognito

I'm not talking about mere eye-for-eye. I'm talking about advocating for the execution of the mentally incapacitated.

That's astonishing.

Cog, sure some people here wish you would F off and die, but none are advocating killing you.
You don't understand the eye for an eye scripture do you?

319 solomonpanting  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:01:22pm

This is how mentally unstable he was:

Prosecution witnesses also testified that Haq conducted a computer search prior to the shootings to find his intended target.
According to the testimony of a Seattle police computer-forensic specialist, Haq sat down at his laptop the day before the shooting and began entering Internet search terms. He began by Googling the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, a Washington, D.C.-based lobbying group, and soon landed on the Seattle Jewish organization, eventually creating a map and directions for the 227-mile trip from his parents' home in Pasco.

320 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:01:32pm

Grumpy?

Got those links ready?

321 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:01:56pm

re: #318 JeremyR

Cog, sure some people here wish you would F off and die, but none are advocating killing you.
You don't understand the eye for an eye scripture do you?

Applied to the mentally incapable?

No.

322 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:02:43pm

re: #296 Cognito

I'm not talking about murderers. Obviously. I'm talking about the mentally incapable.

A number of people here have said they deserve capital punishment. Which is an astonishing thing. To the point of being bizarre, and certainly fodder for people who dislike LGF.

If someone is so mentally incapable that they commit murder, and it's still murder Cognito, whether they knew it or not, then they should have been at least locked up and taken out of society beforehand.

323 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:03:20pm

Oh, Contentious Cognito (You will be CC from now on) ... How are you today?

324 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:03:28pm

re: #322 republic

If someone is so mentally incapable that they commit murder, and it's still murder Cognito, whether they knew it or not, then they should have been at least locked up and taken out of society beforehand.

Yes, of course.

But then again, that's not what people are talking about. They're talking about the death penalty for the mentally incapable.

325 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:03:52pm

re: #316 Cognito

You can't deter the mentally incapable with logic, man.

That's what makes them mentally incapable.

This conversation has been a real eye-opener, I've got to tell you.

Far morethen half of mental verdicts are pure BS. Since they are based on studies conducted after the crime, it is in the interest of the criminal to sway it especially if they are looking at a death sentence.
I know you have a person stake in this, but come on.

326 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:04:01pm

re: #323 hermeneutics

Oh, Contentious Cognito (You will be CC from now on) ... How are you today?

I am awesome.

As always.

327 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:04:55pm

From RollCall via RS:

Roll Call reports that during a Senate vote today, Sen. Barack Obama “dragged” Sen. Joe Lieberman “by the hand to a far corner of the Senate chamber and engaged in what appeared to reporters in the gallery as an intense, three-minute conversation.”

“While it was unclear what the two were discussing, the body language suggested that Obama was trying to convince Lieberman of something and his stance appeared slightly intimidating.”

“Using forceful, but not angry, hand gestures, Obama literally backed up Lieberman against the wall, leaned in very close at times, and appeared to be trying to dominate the conversation, as the two talked over each other in a few instances.”

“Still, Obama and Lieberman seemed to be trying to keep the back-and-forth congenial as they both patted each other on the back during and after the exchange.”

328 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:05:06pm

re: #326 Cognito

And humble?

329 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:05:29pm

re: #321 Cognito

Cog, if a guy ate too many twinkies would that make him mentally incapable?
Because that's the kind of shit they're using for insanity defenses nowadays.

330 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:05:31pm

re: #325 JeremyR

Far morethen half of mental verdicts are pure BS. Since they are based on studies conducted after the crime, it is in the interest of the criminal to sway it especially if they are looking at a death sentence.
I know you have a person stake in this, but come on.

1) I'm not talking about whatever studies, etc etc etc -- I'm talking about the mentally incapable. People we'd agree are insane to the point of not being able to judge right or wrong. Let's keep it to that.

2) I'm game. What's my personal stake in this?

331 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:05:52pm

re: #328 hermeneutics

And humble?

Jes a little joke.

332 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:06:03pm

re: #321 Cognito

Applied to the mentally incapable?

No.

An eye for an eye was a limitation not a requirement. It barred people from taking a life for the loss of an eye. If you were blinded, the MOST you could demand in retribution was that the perp be blinded. You could not demand their life be taken. Exceptions were made for some crimes, rapists deserve death.

333 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:06:12pm

re: #290 Cognito

Goober. You're the one who made the assertion that he's free on bail. Why don't you back that up?

Or do you just throw out random bits of fiction for fun?

While you think on it, enjoy the first sentence of the third paragraph here, and the last sentence here.

I look forward to your links, in response.

You were the one who said he was in jail. The problem with your links is that none of them say he is currently in jail. Presumptively, that would seem to be the case. But typically after a mistrial, the suspect is led from the courtroom back to the jail. If he is granted bail pending further action, he is released from the jail upon receipt of the proper order to release him. He has to collect his personal property and dress out in civilian clothes, if necessary.

For all I know, he could have been remanded to the custody of a guardian or some other arrangement. I couldn't find any article that indicated that he remains in jail at this time.

334 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:06:26pm

re: #329 DesertSage

Cog, if a guy ate too many twinkies would that make him mentally incapable?
Because that's the kind of shit they're using for insanity defenses nowadays.

Nope. You know what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the truly mentally incapable.

They're out there.

335 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:07:14pm

re: #309 Cognito

I'm not talking about mere eye-for-eye. I'm talking about advocating for the execution of the mentally incapacitated.

That's astonishing.

No Cognito, you are trying to turn this into some believing that mentally ill people should be executed.

This man, with premeditation, quoting the koran, and saying horrible antisemetic things, shot and murdered 6 people, and hasn't been convicted of their murders.

You know, if it would have been, say, a white male, quoting something out of the Holy Bible, who shot 6 people to death, there isn't a jury anywhere in this country, who would have aquitted him of those murders, nor would they have even debated sanity or insanity.

You know it!

336 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:07:14pm

re: #333 really grumpy big dog Johnson

Okeydoke. Where's your link to show he's on bail, as you assert?

337 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:08:09pm

re: #324 Cognito

Yes, of course.

But then again, that's not what people are talking about. They're talking about the death penalty for the mentally incapable.

If anyone commits murder Cognito, they need to lose their life.

Period.

338 Syrah  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:08:17pm

re: #317 hermeneutics

Bummer.

I would like to find out who is using cell-phone polls. I would like to see what kind of results they are getting and see how they are solving some of the weight problems involved with it.

Of course you bring up another interesting problem.

Fibbing to the pollsters.

There is another form of "polling" that is able to completely do away with that problem.

It seems to be very accurate.

The punters may well turn out to be the better predictors as the whole telephone polling business gets up ended into the trash bin.

339 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:08:31pm

re: #330 Cognito

We now civilly commit the worst sex offenders after they've finished their criminal sentences. It's been up and down the court food chain and is still legal.

/are you aware of that?

340 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:08:46pm

Just a reminder, only one woman was murdered, other five were injured, I believe one was pregnant.

341 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:08:54pm

re: #335 republic

No Cognito, you are trying to turn this into some believing that mentally ill people should be executed.

This man, with premeditation, quoting the koran, and saying horrible antisemetic things, shot and murdered 6 people, and hasn't been convicted of their murders.

You know, if it would have been, say, a white male, quoting something out of the Holy Bible, who shot 6 people to death, there isn't a jury anywhere in this country, who would have aquitted him of those murders, nor would they have even debated sanity or insanity.

You know it!

I'm not talking about 'this man.' As I've noted numerous times, I have no idea whether he's insane. I sort of suspect not, but I don't know. And frankly neither do you.

And no, I'm not "trying to turn this into some believing that mentally ill people should be executed."

People have said it outright, no turning required.

342 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:09:09pm

re: #337 republic

If anyone commits murder Cognito, they need to lose their life.

Period.

Even someone who thinks he's killing three-headed aliens?

343 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:09:13pm

re: #330 Cognito

1) I'm not talking about whatever studies, etc etc etc -- I'm talking about the mentally incapable. People we'd agree are insane to the point of not being able to judge right or wrong. Let's keep it to that.

2) I'm game. What's my personal stake in this?

1. Most mentally incapable people are not capable of helping in their defense at all. Judging right from wrong is not a question of sanity but morals.

2. you're nucking futz.

344 Intrepid  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:09:33pm

re: #327 hermeneutics

Heh - Obama-strength!

Marking his territory NOW!

345 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:09:39pm

Something to smile about.

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell made good on his promise of retribution against Democrats for their slow pace in confirming judicial nominees by bringing the Senate to a halt Wednesday.

He forced a clerk to read every word of the 491-page global warming bill.

346 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:09:52pm

re: #332 JeremyR

An eye for an eye was a limitation not a requirement. It barred people from taking a life for the loss of an eye. If you were blinded, the MOST you could demand in retribution was that the perp be blinded. You could not demand their life be taken. Exceptions were made for some crimes, rapists deserve death.

and this,of course,is what would be wrong with a biblically based system of law...death penalty when PROPERLY adjuticated,likewise life imprisonment..but NO skate for claims or proof of insanity..and no halfassed miraculous recoveries to secure freedom at any time...do the time,pay the price..

347 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:09:59pm

re: #337 republic

If anyone commits murder Cognito, they need to lose their life.

Period.

Even if they're mentally incapable?

[I'll remind you of something a wise man said in post 335: "No Cognito, you are trying to turn this into some believing that mentally ill people should be executed."]

348 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:10:01pm

I don't have the energy for a Rezko/Jihadi/jury duty discussion now with the added layer of eugenics.

I will go to bed dreaming of Michelle Obama...putting her feet in her mouth. Both size 19s.

Long live the Shrew!

349 NY Nana  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:10:31pm

re: #307 republic

A person throws a tomato against a mosque, and is charged with a hate crime, but a worthless scumbag who only deserves death, with premeditation, murders 6 Jews, and they don't even convict him of murder.

When I saw this in the spinoffs hours ago, I sat here crying, in sadness and in fury. All I could think of is Buenos Aires, 1994, where the death toll was so much higher, but one is too many.

And because of this vile decision? It could, G-d forbid, happen again....here, anywhere.

BTW, Iran and Hizballah were charged...see the similarity in the 2 cases...

350 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:10:31pm

re: #344 Intrepid

I wish Joe L. would have reached out and decked him.

351 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:10:43pm

re: #334 Cognito

Nope. You know what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the truly mentally incapable.

They're out there.

I do understand that. And I'm not insensitive to the truly incapacitated. I just believe that this guy knew exactly what he was doing, and he's using what is the equivalent of the twinkie defense to get a reduced sentence, like getting sent to a mental hospital.

352 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:10:46pm

re: #335 republic

No Cognito, you are trying to turn this into some believing that mentally ill people should be executed.

This man, with premeditation, quoting the koran, and saying horrible antisemetic things, shot and murdered 6 people, and hasn't been convicted of their murders.

You know, if it would have been, say, a white male, quoting something out of the Holy Bible, who shot 6 people to death, there isn't a jury anywhere in this country, who would have aquitted him of those murders, nor would they have even debated sanity or insanity.

You know it!

That one was in the x ring. Cog won't get it though.

353 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:10:53pm

re: #339 Killian Bundy

We now civilly commit the worst sex offenders after they've finished their criminal sentences. It's been up and down the court food chain and is still legal.

/are you aware of that?

I don't know anything about that. Honestly I'm not sure how it applies here.

Not saying it doesn't, just saying I'm no legal wiz.

354 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:11:12pm

re: #316 Cognito

You can't deter the mentally incapable with logic, man.

That's what makes them mentally incapable.

This conversation has been a real eye-opener, I've got to tell you.

If a person is capable of premeditation and prior deceit and concealment to facilitate a crime, that person is presumptively capable of premeditated murder. It would only be under the most unusual of circumstances that a jury could properly find otherwise.

Anyway, no one need assert that the hung jury was based upon guilt with insanity or innocent because of insanity. A hung jury's reasons for an inability to reach a unanimous verdict are not limited to that particular situation.

The guy was capable of taking care of himself, of planning murder, of concealing in place prior to committing a felony. These are concrete indicators of guilt, regardless of his state of sanity.

355 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:11:24pm

re: #342 MandyManners

Even someone who thinks he's killing three-headed aliens?

Yes.

356 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:12:04pm

re: #343 JeremyR

Most mentally incapable people are not capable of helping in their defense at all. Judging right from wrong is not a question of sanity but morals.

Fascinating. So you're re-writing legal and societal standards, on the fly.

357 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:12:44pm

re: #341 Cognito

I'm not talking about 'this man.' As I've noted numerous times, I have no idea whether he's insane. I sort of suspect not, but I don't know. And frankly neither do you.

And no, I'm not "trying to turn this into some believing that mentally ill people should be executed."

People have said it outright, no turning required.

Well, Cog, the rest of us ARE talking about this NUT. Thats what this thread is about, a jihadi murdering someone and then hiding behind a legal loop hole.

358 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:12:54pm

re: #351 DesertSage

I do understand that. And I'm not insensitive to the truly incapacitated. I just believe that this guy knew exactly what he was doing, and he's using what is the equivalent of the twinkie defense to get a reduced sentence, like getting sent to a mental hospital.

Yes, I suspect the same.

359 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:13:06pm

re: #355 republic

Yes.

I find that very sad. Aren't we supposed to help the sick?

360 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:13:38pm

re: #347 Cognito

Even if they're mentally incapable?

[I'll remind you of something a wise man said in post 335: "No Cognito, you are trying to turn this into some believing that mentally ill people should be executed."]


I should have said "all" in that comment, my mistake.

I will now say, that anyone who commits murder, wether sane or not, needs to have their life taken.

361 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:13:55pm

I'm determine to find good news today, folks. Here's some more.

New Mexico conservatives will be glad to hear that the nicely conservative Pearce won his primary round against RINO Wilson.

And California conservatives will be glad to hear that retiring Congressman Doolittle's seat will be defended by Tom McClintock (the guy who ran against Arnold.)

362 solomonpanting  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:14:23pm

re: #356 Cognito

Most mentally incapable people are not capable of helping in their defense at all. Judging right from wrong is not a question of sanity but morals.

So then a person who is incapable of distinguishing right from wrong can be found not guilty by reason of immorality?

363 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:14:24pm

re: #354 really grumpy big dog Johnson

If a person is capable of premeditation and prior deceit and concealment to facilitate a crime, that person is presumptively capable of premeditated murder. It would only be under the most unusual of circumstances that a jury could properly find otherwise.

Anyway, no one need assert that the hung jury was based upon guilt with insanity or innocent because of insanity. A hung jury's reasons for an inability to reach a unanimous verdict are not limited to that particular situation.

The guy was capable of taking care of himself, of planning murder, of concealing in place prior to committing a felony. These are concrete indicators of guilt, regardless of his state of sanity.

Again.

Again.

I'm not talking about Haq. The conversation long ago moved to whether the mentally incapable should be available for the death penalty. That's what I'm talking about. And that's where people here have really surprised me tonight with a medieval mindset.

364 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:14:36pm

re: #348 brainwizard73

Goodnight, Wizard.

365 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:14:39pm

re: #358 Cognito

Yes, I suspect the same.

Then why are we having this argument?

*puzzled look on my face*

366 NY Nana  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:14:49pm

re: #340 Tarkus289

Just a reminder, only one woman was murdered, other five were injured, I believe one was pregnant.

One is too many, and the bastard claimed mental illness. Big freaking deal.

There was no way they were going to find him guilty.

367 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:15:12pm

re: #357 JeremyR

Well, Cog, the rest of us ARE talking about this NUT. Thats what this thread is about, a jihadi murdering someone and then hiding behind a legal loop hole.

No, the 'rest of us' aren't. People are making decidedly broad statements about killing the mentally incapable.

368 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:16:19pm

re: #362 solomonpanting

So then a person who is incapable of distinguishing right from wrong can be found not guilty by reason of immorality?

I didn't say that. There's something weird in the quote function there.

369 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:16:51pm

re: #333 really grumpy big dog Johnson

Trust me, I'll bet almost anything he's still in custody, or in a secure mental institution as a condition of any "bail". They already said they were going to retry the mistrial counts.

/just a matter of rearrest and recharging

370 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:16:53pm

re: #366 NY Nana

Please understand that I was not trying to minimize the event at all, I was
just pointing it out because I read a lot of posts that said six women were murdered, when in fact, it was only one.

371 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:16:58pm

re: #365 DesertSage

Then why are we having this argument?

*puzzled look on my face*

I dunno. I think we're in agreement.

372 deesine  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:17:13pm

re: #43 OtisMyMan

If he had done this in a Gay/Lesbian/Bi/Transgender center, perhaps the reporting would have been different, the treatment at trial would have been different and the results would have been different.

What's different is that we'd probably never here about it.

373 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:17:45pm

re: #371 Cognito

I dunno. I think we're in agreement.


Kismet!

374 Neo Con since 9-11  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:17:58pm

re: #356 Cognito

Most mentally incapable people are not capable of helping in their defense at all. Judging right from wrong is not a question of sanity but morals.

Fascinating. So you're re-writing legal and societal standards, on the fly.

So do you think Haq believed what he did was right or wrong?
His imam probably told him killing Jews was a good thing and I think Haq thought what he did was right. And, if he believed he was doing the right thing due to his religion should he still be judged insane?

375 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:18:23pm

re: #359 MandyManners

I find that very sad. Aren't we supposed to help the sick?

Everybody is "sick" Mandy, some more than others, and some way more than others yet, but the vast majority, the great majority of people don't murder.

Otherwise, there could be no judgement on murder.

Anyone who murders is very sick.

Look, I'm entitled to my opinion, after all, it is but one mans opinion.

376 Maximu§  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:18:37pm

of a man who stormed into a Jewish center two years ago and shot six women, killing one, as he ranted against Israel and the Iraq war.

No big deal, they we're only Jews right? Hell perhaps Naveed Haq could run for mayor of Seattle.

/s

377 realwest  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:18:43pm

re: #319 solomonpanting

Sigh. Yeah but the defense attorney said that Haq sufferered from "auditory hallucinations and paranoid delusions. [and] A defense expert diagnosed him as having bipolar disorder with psychotic tendencies.
As I've suggested several times now, the issue of legal insanity is too damned important to leave to jurors - experts testify for each side and the judge SHOULD make the decision about legal sanity. To try someone who in fact was legally insane, is insane itself for that person couldn't assist his counsel in defending himself (in this case, the murderer could have had auditory hallucinations and paranoid delusions while discussing the case with his lawyers or - if he took the stand - while testifying.

378 Inquisitive  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:18:44pm

re: #336 Cognito

Okeydoke. Where's your link to show he's on bail, as you assert?


He did not assert that---"he said --But typically after a mistrial, the suspect is led from the courtroom back to the jail. If he is granted bail pending further action, he is released from the jail upon receipt of the proper order to release him--and;
For all I know, he could have been remanded to the custody of a guardian or some other arrangement. I couldn't find any article that indicated that he remains in jail at this time.

379 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:18:50pm

re: #374 Neo Con since 9-11

So do you think Haq believed what he did was right or wrong?
His imam probably told him killing Jews was a good thing and I think Haq thought what he did was right. And, if he believed he was doing the right thing due to his religion should he still be judged insane?

What?

He did a very, very -- profoundly -- wrong thing.

Is that in question?

380 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:18:51pm

re: #295 republic

re: #303 Bacchus's daddy

I've been posting here for a few years. Most know I am NOT sympathetic to anyone who kills another person. If they understood what they did, and knew there was a good probability that someone could die because of their actions, I have no problem if a jury deems the death penalty appropriate. My whole point was regarding if he was insane. BUT...I'm not saying he was insane!

381 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:18:54pm

re: #372 deesine

What's different is that we'd probably never here about it.


no,what's different is that we'd never hear the end of it...

382 Racer X  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:19:22pm

re: #361 hermeneutics

I'm determine to find good news today, folks.


Well, I saved money on my car insurance, and I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night.

383 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:19:23pm

re: #354 really grumpy big dog Johnson

The hung jury was because they couldn't figure out a jury instruction.

/out of stupidity or willfulness, who knows?

384 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:19:32pm

re: #363 Cognito

Again.

Again.

I'm not talking about Haq. The conversation long ago moved to whether the mentally incapable should be available for the death penalty. That's what I'm talking about. And that's where people here have really surprised me tonight with a medieval mindset.

You're not listening to me. I didn't move to the death penalty, I moved to guilt or innocence based upon known facts.

I don't care what trends you are following, If you want to speak to me, speak to what I'm saying, not what you think I should be saying.

Cognito, you could probably be declared insane, but it wouldn't save you from death if you committed a crime.

385 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:19:42pm

re: #367 Cognito

No, the 'rest of us' aren't. People are making decidedly broad statements about killing the mentally incapable.

Well, I'll go on record stating I am in favor of executing anyone who commits murder regardless of whether they were sane, drunk, drugged or as nutty as they get.

386 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:19:55pm

re: #382 Racer X

Well, I saved money on my car insurance, and I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night.

Huh?

387 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:20:09pm

re: #378 Inquisitive

He did not assert that---

Ah, yes. He did:

He's on bail, and has been for some time. Prove me wrong.

388 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:20:43pm

re: #337 republic

If anyone commits murder Cognito, they need to lose their life.

Period.

Ya know, that's about the most stupid thing I've ever read here.

389 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:21:23pm

re: #380 Bob in Breckenridge

re: #303 Bacchus's daddy

I've been posting here for a few years. Most know I am NOT sympathetic to anyone who kills another person. If they understood what they did, and knew there was a good probability that someone could die because of their actions, I have no problem if a jury deems the death penalty appropriate. My whole point was regarding if he was insane. BUT...I'm not saying he was insane!


We're good Bob.

390 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:21:45pm

My, my.

Not a proud moment for LGF.

391 solomonpanting  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:22:21pm

re: #368 Cognito

I didn't say that. There's something weird in the quote function there.


Yes, I see that was JeremyR's comment.

392 zombie  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:22:31pm

Just posted in the spinoff links:

Be afraid -- be very afraid. View this photo to see what we're up against. Crowds of people thronging to simply "lay their hands" on Obama, as if he had Jesus-like powers to heal through touch.

This is not a campaign -- it's a religious tent-revival crusade.

I've never seen anything like it.

393 blutonazi98  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:22:43pm

this is my great state, the white libs here just know he has to be crazy because no sane person would just go in some random office and start killing people like that. they look at me with great doe eyes as i tell them he was not crazy he is Muslim, this was not random he wanted to kill jews.
they do not want to believe that but they will believe any libel on bush, america, republicans etc.
these are the same people that will not believe any negative about obama

394 Neo Con since 9-11  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:22:47pm

re: #379 Cognito

What?

He did a very, very -- profoundly -- wrong thing.

Is that in question?

No, that is not a question in my mind. But most terrorists believe they are doing the right. Should Osama, if we catch him, be judged insane just because he believed killing thousands of Americans was the right and good thing to do? He obviously is incapable of judging right from wrong.

395 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:22:49pm

re: #383 Killian Bundy

The hung jury was because they couldn't figure out a jury instruction.

/out of stupidity or willfulness, who knows?

Sounded to me that they couldn't figure out the intent of the jury instruction, and the judge wouldn't give them additional guidance. Not unusual.

396 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:22:53pm

re: #377 realwest

Hey RW!
The Kos Kiddies have hallucinations and paranoid delusions all the time. Are they all insane?

397 NY Nana  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:23:00pm

re: #106 Charles

And that makes him different from any other jihadi murderer who slaughters Jews... how, exactly?

Thank you, Charles.

398 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:23:01pm

re: #392 zombie

Secular millennialism, Zombie.

399 Inquisitive  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:23:07pm

re: #387 Cognito

was that from a earlier post?

400 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:23:13pm

re: #375 republic

Everybody is "sick" Mandy, some more than others, and some way more than others yet, but the vast majority, the great majority of people don't murder.

Otherwise, there could be no judgement on murder.

Anyone who murders is very sick.

Look, I'm entitled to my opinion, after all, it is but one mans opinion.

Where did I claim you were not entitled to your opinion?

That said, I'm talking about the truly mentally ill people, not some Jew-hating ass who plots to kill Jews and then hides out in their building in order to not get caught before he kills.

401 Racer X  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:24:02pm

re: #386 hermeneutics

Sorry - local TV ad joke I guess.

402 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:24:04pm

re: #394 Neo Con since 9-11

I believe the standard isn't whether someone believes he's doing right, at the moment, but rather whether he has the capacity to grasp the notion of 'right' and 'wrong.'

403 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:24:46pm

re: #385 JeremyR

Well, I'll go on record stating I am in favor of executing anyone who commits murder regardless of whether they were sane, drunk, drugged or as nutty as they get.

You would execute someone who is mentally ill?

What about a 10-year-old who kills?

404 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:24:48pm

re: #399 Inquisitive

was that from a earlier post?

206, I believe

405 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:25:09pm

re: #390 Cognito

My, my.

Not a proud moment for LGF.

The least proud moment for LGF is when you started soiling the waters, Cognito. Your entire existence here is dedicated to disrupting whatever discussion is at hand. You take the contrarian view, every time. Get a real life.

406 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:25:11pm

re: #390 Cognito

My, my.

Not a proud moment for LGF.

[Expletive deleted] off! After you lick yourself.

/go somewhere else, condescending prissy, LGF is catch as catch can and always has been

407 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:25:14pm

re: #390 Cognito

My, my.

Not a proud moment for LGF.


the vast majority of posters on this subject have not been as extreme as the few who are way over the top..that's no reason to slag LGF,cog...

408 Intrepid  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:25:16pm

My late uncle was able to concoct schemes to hurt or embarrass his siblings. He did so often, to my mother's detriment! And he hid when the consequences were forthcoming from my Grandmother.

(He broke the jar of beans and told my Grandmother that my mother had done so, even though he still held the hammer in his hand)

He thought someone else would get the blame, and he laughed!

And he was mentally retarded.

He set up the situation, he carried it through, and he found a fall guy. He also hid when the evidence was called for.

Yet he had the mental capacity of a 2 year old.

409 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:25:21pm

re: #392 zombie

Zombie,
The more I look at that picture, the scarier it seems. Look at their smiles, particularly of the black lady who looks estatic.

What are the yellow bracelets? Do you know?

410 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:25:23pm

re: #400 MandyManners

Where did I claim you were not entitled to your opinion?

That said, I'm talking about the truly mentally ill people, not some Jew-hating ass who plots to kill Jews and then hides out in their building in order to not get caught before he kills.

Mandy, Hitler was a madman. Had we captured him, should he have been spared? The same is true of Saddam.

411 Racer X  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:25:46pm

re: #392 zombie

Yeah, wait until he gets his hands on your wallet.

412 Bacchus's daddy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:25:59pm

re: #380 Bob in Breckenridge

Good here too. I agree that if this guy is insane, apart from Sudden Jihadi Syndrome or a close cousin thereof, he should be treated the same way all other "guilty by reason of insanity" cases are.

413 rustynail  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:26:09pm

re: #203 Noam Sayin'
Yes, but I think a .40 caliber Glock mango or a 45 ACP banana would be better choices.

414 solomonpanting  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:26:12pm

re: #377 realwest


As I've suggested several times now, the issue of legal insanity is too damned important to leave to jurors.

So it would appear, huh?

415 Inquisitive  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:26:15pm

re: #404 Cognito
okay I'll go back and read that post

416 Maximu§  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:26:29pm

re: #402 Cognito

I believe the standard isn't whether someone believes he's doing right, at the moment, but rather whether he has the capacity to grasp the notion of 'right' and 'wrong.'

Yeah, that sounds great until its one of your family members thats gunned down in cold blood.....then you would be singing a different tune.

417 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:26:33pm

re: #405 really grumpy big dog Johnson

The least proud moment for LGF is when you started soiling the waters, Cognito. Your entire existence here is dedicated to disrupting whatever discussion is at hand. You take the contrarian view, every time. Get a real life.

Yeah. I pretty much put words in your mouth, and the mouths of others.

A set of regular wilting flowers, tossed about in the verbal wind.

No.

418 Opilio  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:26:40pm

re: #324 Cognito

Yes, of course.

But then again, that's not what people are talking about. They're talking about the death penalty for the mentally incapable.

I'm late to the party, but I've tried to scan the thread to catch up.

That being said, are you saying that someone up thread is advocating the execution of the "mentally incapable" merely for being mental incapable, without having inflicted grievous harm on someone?

419 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:26:50pm

re: #388 Bob in Breckenridge

Ya know, that's about the most stupid thing I've ever read here.

That's what I've always believed Bob.

If you don't agree, and you comment that you don't agree, I wouldn't say that's about the most stupid thing I've ever read here, I'd just figure that's your personal opinion.

But, you're certainly entitled to state that what I said is about the most stupid thing you've read here.

I'm fine with that.

420 NY Nana  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:27:29pm

re: #370 Tarkus289

Tarkus,

Life is precious, and even that one was murdered in cold blood? The effects on the Jewish community, the people who were injured, the families, name it...their lives are forever changed.

I know that you meant no harm, but I have seen so much of this in my lifetime that I feel numb after seeing this happen time after time...and it seems that very few are convicted...a disproportionate number of Jews who are killed in cold blood? The perp walks, or does time that is a joke.

421 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:27:41pm

re: #403 MandyManners

You would execute someone who is mentally ill?

What about a 10-year-old who kills?

If they commit murder, yes. If it was some freak childish accident, no.

422 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:27:47pm

re: #406 Killian Bundy

[Expletive deleted] off! After you lick yourself.

/go somewhere else, condescending prissy, LGF is catch as catch can and always has been

Hey, man, sorry. People have said some pretty heinous things here tonight.

Not by my standards. By America's standards. We don't kill the mentally incapable. And it's embarrassing to see people argue for something otherwise.

423 LeePro  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:27:47pm

re: #261 hermeneutics

Oh, that's very interesting. I'm still looking at the poll and I just noticed, too, that the last CBS poll had Obama 11% higher than McCain. Trending McCain!

Now, if we could pin Rezko to Obama's house (which is true), and if the media was responsible enough to show Obama in a true light, his numbers should go down even further.

No, wait, wait, wait...

You just put "media" and "responsible" in the same sentence...!

/haddabee a typo!

424 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:28:13pm

re: #390 Cognito

My, my.

Not a proud moment for LGF.

From what I've learned thus far in life, human beings bicker, often.

425 DownRightMeanAmerican  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:28:18pm

Reminds me of some LA trials like the Menendez brothers 1st trial, OJ, Blake, Spector, etc....

So maybe we aren’t just the only fruits and nuts... :)

426 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:29:02pm

re: #407 joecitizen

the vast majority of posters on this subject have not been as extreme as the few who are way over the top..that's no reason to slag LGF,cog...

You're right; I don't mean to slag LGF. I like LGF. But I think the comments section is salted with some pretty jagged people.

427 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:29:06pm

re: #423 LeePro

No, wait, wait, wait...

You just put "media" and "responsible" in the same sentence...!

/haddabee a typo!

It was an if ... then clause! The assumption was the media would not be responsible, but I get your drift.

How are you Lee?

428 realwest  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:29:10pm

re: #396 DesertSage
Hey Sage - I don't know about ALL the koskidz, but just from reading some of their diaries or comments, I'd say they were nucking futz!

429 Neo Con since 9-11  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:29:27pm

re: #402 Cognito

I believe the standard isn't whether someone believes he's doing right, at the moment, but rather whether he has the capacity to grasp the notion of 'right' and 'wrong.'

I hope one of the lawyers here weighs in on this. I had always heard it phrased "knows the difference between 'right' and 'wrong'". Although, phrased as "the capacity to grasp the notion of 'right' and 'wrong'" would clear this up a bit for me.

430 Inquisitive  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:29:35pm

re: #404 Cognito

206, I believe

;o---he did assert that he wa out on bail and had been for long time ;)

431 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:29:52pm

re: #418 Opilio

I'm late to the party, but I've tried to scan the thread to catch up.

That being said, are you saying that someone up thread is advocating the execution of the "mentally incapable" merely for being mental incapable, without having inflicted grievous harm on someone?


'some' have advocated the death penalty for the mentally incapable who committ murder..

432 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:29:54pm

re: #410 JeremyR

Mandy, Hitler was a madman. Had we captured him, should he have been spared? The same is true of Saddam.

They were NOT insane. They were evil, probably narcissists and sociopaths. Personality disorders are not mental illnesses.

433 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:31:47pm

re: #421 JeremyR

If they commit murder, yes. If it was some freak childish accident, no.

Good Lord.

That is despicable.

Children should not be executed. Ever.

Gotta tell you. This is dark stuff, tonight.

434 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:32:05pm

re: #395 really grumpy big dog Johnson

Sounded to me that they couldn't figure out the intent of the jury instruction, and the judge wouldn't give them additional guidance. Not unusual.

Happens all the time.

/if the jury is asking questions about the meaning of the "insanity" jury instruction, there's no way on the face of this earth the defense would ever agree to giving them additional "guidance" , that would be gross legal malpractice

435 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:32:15pm

re: #426 Cognito

You're right; I don't mean to slag LGF. I like LGF. But I think the comments section is salted with some pretty jagged people.

Did it ever occur to you that you could be considered by some, or many at LGF, to be in the "pretty jagged people" category?

436 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:32:26pm

re: #412 Bacchus's daddy

Good here too. I agree that if this guy is insane, apart from Sudden Jihadi Syndrome or a close cousin thereof, he should be treated the same way all other "guilty by reason of insanity" cases are.

Well, in my opinion it should be "Insane, but guilty", so as not to excuse the crime that was committed, and so the perp can't walk after a year or two in a mental hospital.

437 rustynail  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:33:01pm

re: #222 MandyManners

Because they're humans.

Who says they're humans?

438 Opilio  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:33:11pm

re: #383 Killian Bundy

The hung jury was because they couldn't figure out a jury instruction.

/out of stupidity or willfulness, who knows?

All it takes to hang a jury is one person. One stupid person. Or one person with an agenda. Or one person with integrity. It could have been 11-1 to acquit, and juror #12 kept him from walking free. Or it could have been 11-1 to convict. If jury vote was published, I haven't seen it.

439 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:33:36pm

re: #433 Cognito

Good Lord.

That is despicable.

Children should not be executed. Ever.

Gotta tell you. This is dark stuff, tonight.


So are you saying that there are certain instances of murder that are acceptable, and thus should go unpunished?

440 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:33:46pm

re: #422 Cognito

Hey, man, sorry. People have said some pretty heinous things here tonight.

Not by my standards. By America's standards. We don't kill the mentally incapable. And it's embarrassing to see people argue for something otherwise.

Then save us all the lectures.

/report the comments, see what happens

441 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:33:47pm

re: #426 Cognito

You're right; I don't mean to slag LGF. I like LGF. But I think the comments section is salted with some pretty jagged people.


this is true,and I have defended you from time to time in the interests of fairness and a non groupthinky type blog..LGF is not the problem here,though...

442 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:33:49pm

re: #403 MandyManners

You would execute someone who is mentally ill?

What about a 10-year-old who kills?

There was a six year old kid in Tulsa Oklahoma that bludgeoned a four year old girl to death and concealed her body in the crawl space under his home.

He was put in a lockup juvenile facility that only housed the most violently insane children.

He was given extensive mental health treatment for ten years, and while still in state custody at the age of sixteen was given a weekend furlough to his home back in Tulsa. During the furlough, he killed another small girl. He was found guilty of murder while insane, and sentenced to spend the rest of his life in an adult facility for the criminally insane.

443 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:33:57pm

re: #435 republic

Did it ever occur to you that you could be considered by some, or many at LGF, to be in the "pretty jagged people" category?

Sure. But then again I've not called for execution of the mentally ill or, as one person has, children.

444 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:34:01pm

re: #432 MandyManners

They were NOT insane. They were evil, probably narcissists and sociopaths. Personality disorders are not mental illnesses.

A team of sociologists in the 70's studied Hitler and determined he was insane. They deduced he had syphilis and it impaired his mental capacity. Forensic analysis based on his writings and the testimony of those who witnessed his behavior.

445 Maximu§  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:34:21pm

re: #426 Cognito

You're right; I don't mean to slag LGF. I like LGF. But I think the comments section is salted with some pretty jagged people.

Keep in mind there are alot of military vets in here....we who carried and used weapons for a living to protect innocents have a dim view of wanna-be mass murderers.

446 victor_yugo  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:34:29pm

Is it the WNDT yet?

I witnessed an assault this evening. I had to give a statement to the cops. I've given enough statements in my life that I knew exactly how to word it, keep the chronology, stick to observed facts, avoid speculation and surmising, and he didn't have to add anything at all to my statement.

Anyone for a glass of rum?

447 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:34:58pm

re: #420 NY Nana

I have to make you realize, I was only correcting the mis-statements of some of the posts, I was not minimizing at all, I remember being absolutely furious when that event happened, I was throwing things against the wall. I was also very upset at the immediate claim that it was not terror related, just the same way they told us that the El-Al murder was not. Trust me .

448 Racer X  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:35:00pm

Very lively debate. LGF is quite the diverse crowd.

Except when it comes to scum-sucking homicidal muslim extremists out to destroy civilization. There I think we are all in agreement.

We shall never "submit".

449 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:35:12pm

re: #421 JeremyR

If they commit murder, yes. If it was some freak childish accident, no.

You cannot be serious or that stupid. Do you honestly believe a 10 year old has any idea of what he or she is doing? Get a fuckin' clue.

450 Neo Con since 9-11  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:35:25pm

re: #429 Neo Con since 9-11

Wiki describes it as
incapable of distinguishing between right and wrong at the time the offense was committed
Which would describe nearly every terrorist. They almost always believe killing their intended victim was good, right and just. maybe it is time to rewrite the insanity defense.

451 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:35:36pm

re: #439 republic

So are you saying that there are certain instances of murder that are acceptable, and thus should go unpunished?

I'm saying there are instances of murder in which mitigating circumstances mean the death penalty is inapplicable. Like mental incapacity, or -- for the love of all that is good and decent -- childhood.

This is creeping me out.

452 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:35:38pm

re: #433 Cognito

Good Lord.

That is despicable.

Children should not be executed. Ever.

Gotta tell you. This is dark stuff, tonight.

So if you were a soldier on the line in Afghanistan, and were attacked by a bunch of kids firing AK-47s you would not defend your self?

453 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:36:14pm

re: #441 joecitizen

this is true,and I have defended you from time to time in the interests of fairness and a non groupthinky type blog..LGF is not the problem here,though...

You're right. But there is something very strange going on here, this evening.

454 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:36:45pm

re: #442 really grumpy big dog Johnson

Some people just don't get it.

455 victor_yugo  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:37:10pm

re: #452 JeremyR

So if you were a soldier on the line in Afghanistan, and were attacked by a bunch of kids firing AK-47s you would not defend your self?

Straw man.

War is not a jury trial.

456 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:37:17pm

re: #421 JeremyR

Jeremy,

Mandy is rightfully trying to draw a continuum between the really, really insane and the merely disordered. Drawing a line between insantity and mental illness is difficult, but it must be done, at least in courts.

Courts have drawn that line incorrectly so many times that people, like you, are frustrated because not-so-insane people are released by juries/judges. This is plainly wrong.

But Mandy is talking about those who truly are insane -- they are unable to determine right from wrong and cannot help themselves. Those are the people who deserve time in a hospital, not a prison.

It is a silppery line, though. People who are merely ill, but not insane, sometimes go free. Wrongly. But people who are guilty often go free too.

No good answers here, huh?

457 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:37:19pm

re: #452 JeremyR

So if you were a soldier on the line in Afghanistan, and were attacked by a bunch of kids firing AK-47s you would not defend your self?

Please.

That is pitiful. We're not talking about self defense. We're talking about state-executed punishment.

458 freedomplow  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:37:25pm

Radical Islam will be defeated by the unrelenting sunlight of Freedom.

In the darkness of dictators, prison or hell, it will fester.

459 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:37:30pm

re: #442 really grumpy big dog Johnson

There was a six year old kid in Tulsa Oklahoma that bludgeoned a four year old girl to death and concealed her body in the crawl space under his home.

He was put in a lockup juvenile facility that only housed the most violently insane children.

He was given extensive mental health treatment for ten years, and while still in state custody at the age of sixteen was given a weekend furlough to his home back in Tulsa. During the furlough, he killed another small girl. He was found guilty of murder while insane, and sentenced to spend the rest of his life in an adult facility for the criminally insane.

I hope he is never released.

460 Intrepid  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:37:44pm

The issues here is whether or not the Haq trial is about a Jiihadi killing a jew, or a madman killing anyone.

It has been posited that Haq is a jihadii. It has also been posited that he is simply insane.

The jury in his case is deadlocked.

That's where it stands, folks.

461 DownRightMeanAmerican  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:38:05pm

re: #446 victor_yugo

Cheers!

With Vodka and Pepsi, or Pay Every Penny to Say Israel.

462 Annelid[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:38:31pm
463 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:38:34pm

re: #444 JeremyR

A team of sociologists in the 70's studied Hitler and determined he was insane. They deduced he had syphilis and it impaired his mental capacity. Forensic analysis based on his writings and the testimony of those who witnessed his behavior.

He didn't start out insane. He was a narcisst long before he got syphillis.

464 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:38:57pm

re: #449 Bob in Breckenridge

You cannot be serious or that stupid. Do you honestly believe a 10 year old has any idea of what he or she is doing? Get a fuckin' clue.

Bob, I have a clue. Some, not all ten year olds are capable of reason. An accidental death is one thing, a reasoned act is another.

465 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:39:03pm

re: #451 Cognito

I'm saying there are instances of murder in which mitigating circumstances mean the death penalty is inapplicable. Like mental incapacity, or -- for the love of all that is good and decent -- childhood.

This is creeping me out.

I don't usually agree with you cog, but BULLSEYE!

466 realwest  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:39:32pm

re: #433 Cognito I don't know how old you are, but in NYC about 30 years or so ago, drug dealers used to use legal minors to carry their drugs for them, knowing that the minors couldn't be convicted of a felony because of their being "children".
I also recall, around the same time, some folks had "children" shoot other people (I would suppose their competitors in the drug business) knowing that somone who is a legal minor cannot be charged as an adult, even if the crime was murder.
This DID IN FACT HAPPEN. Children as young as 12 or 13 would be given handguns and told to shoot so and so. And, many times, they did.
I'm not saying that children who murder ought necessarily receive the death penalty, but the fact that they are children ought not to, in and of itself, preclude the possiblity that they knew what they were doing (i.e., murdering someone) and ought to at least be tried as adults for that crime.
I know that doesn't go to the question of legally insane, but it does go to the question of punishing children who commit murder.

467 stevieray  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:39:32pm

re: #398 hermeneutics

Secular millennialism, Zombie.

Surrender to Something Big... for the greater good, of course. The beginning of the forth wave of American progressive fascism.

1st -- Wilson
2nd -- FDR
3rd -- Post 60's intellectualism [multi-culti p.c. eco-feminism, etc...]
4th -- Obamination? Cultural marxism replaces the US constitution and two centuries of real progress with the sham of progressivism?

468 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:39:42pm

re: #452 JeremyR

So if you were a soldier on the line in Afghanistan, and were attacked by a bunch of kids firing AK-47s you would not defend your self?

Killing a child in self defense is not the same as the state sentencing a child to to be executed.

469 pat  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:39:45pm

Actually, I have been told that the standard for criminal insanity now differs from State to State. And whereas there were once three predominate legal schools of thought and standards, there are now multitudinous. And many legislatures are attempting to reign in judges that have expanded the concept to ensure that real criminals go free and those seeking to preserve life and liberty are convicted.

470 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:39:52pm

re: #452 JeremyR

So if you were a soldier on the line in Afghanistan, and were attacked by a bunch of kids firing AK-47s you would not defend your self?

Now you're getting totally fucking stupid. Are you drinking?

471 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:39:54pm

re: #452 JeremyR

So if you were a soldier on the line in Afghanistan, and were attacked by a bunch of kids firing AK-47s you would not defend your self?


jeezus man you are really stretching thin here...

472 zombie  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:40:05pm

re: #296 Cognito

I'm not talking about murderers. Obviously. I'm talking about the mentally incapable.

A number of people here have said they deserve capital punishment. Which is an astonishing thing. To the point of being bizarre, and certainly fodder for people who dislike LGF.

One could fairly convincingly argue that anybody who commits a murder must be insane to do such a thing. And in fact there are plenty of criminal defense attorneys (most of the leftists) who do exactly that. They argue that their client is nuts in order to get him off -- regardless of his actual mental state.

The law was originally intended to prevent the exeuction of truly, deeply insane people who have no idea what they're even doing -- tertiary dementia. But it has been twisted and twisted to included every ridiculous shade of abnormality. Henry Lee Lucas's lawyer, if I remember correctly, treid to get him off by claiming he was driven insane by his mother, who as a prostitute had sex with strangers in the same room with the young Henry. Now, I'm sure that turned Henry into a very twisted individual, but -- insane? To see him speak and act, he appears perfectly normal. But deep in his mind he developed a hatred for women, and eventually had no moral code of any kind. Yet he certainly "knew what he was doing" when he murdered those 60 people. He just had a screwed up worldview.

I simply don't believe the law was designed to protect people like Henry Lee Lucas or Naveed Haq who are able to function normally in society and in their personal lives, but who have defective or non-existence moral codes.

Some lawyer bamboozled a jury, and some prosecutor bungled a slam-dunk case.

Naveed Haq most definitely committed this crime. And from his observed behavior (kidnapping the girl to get inside) it means he grasped and predicted other people's emotional reactions, which means he is not a psychopath, and hence not insane.

Were he to be convicted -- and I believe he deserved to be -- he deserves the death penalty in my view, because it is a "special circumstances" murder -- committed during the commission of a hate crime.

Thus, I see nothing wrong with those who are saying "Fry him!" They're basically saying what I just did here, but in shorthand.

473 victor_yugo  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:40:36pm

re: #463 MandyManners

He didn't start out insane. He was a narcisst long before he got syphillis.

A syphilitic narcissist?

A narcissistic syphilitic?

/shades of Sweet Transvestite

474 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:40:46pm


re: #467 stevieray

Surrender to Something Big... for the greater good, of course. The beginning of the forth wave of American progressive fascism.

1st -- Wilson
2nd -- FDR
3rd -- Post 60's intellectualism [multi-culti p.c. eco-feminism, etc...]
4th -- Obamination? Cultural marxism replaces the US constitution and two centuries of real progress with the sham of progressivism?


Wow, Stevie ... I've got to put some thought into this before I respond. Good stuff.

475 Maximu§  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:40:55pm

re: #446 victor_yugo

Anyone for a glass of rum?

With Coke and Ice for Max.

476 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:41:30pm

re: #459 MandyManners

I hope he is never released.

He won't be. There is no out clause of "treated and now sane". I think he killed himself a few years in lockup, while still in his twenties.

In lockup, he had no one else to satisfy his homical urges with.

477 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:42:20pm

re: #471 joecitizen

Wow, sanity prevails!

478 Racer X  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:42:21pm

The question is not about punishment for children or the insane, the question is about Capital punishment.

479 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:42:26pm

re: #472 zombie

Hi, Zombie.

The conversation moved, a while back, from Haq to the general idea of execution of the mentally incapable. I have no idea whether Haq is insane, but from what I can tell -- which is little, not being in the courtroom -- I doubt he was.

480 Bacchus's daddy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:42:40pm

Re: # 414

As I've suggested several times now, the issue of legal insanity is too damned important to leave to jurors.

It's not only leaving it up to the jurors, it's also the different and evolving definitions of "insane" in our jurisprudence, which has been infected by our intelligentsia's search for a "root cause" for every violent act or antisocial behavior, beyond individual culpability. Thus, the definition on "insanity" expands as we seek to understand what "we" have done wrong, rather than the individual criminal.

Again, if this guy truly is insane he should be treated as such, and certainly not executed. I have strong doubts, however, about his "insanity", and fears that political biases may have consciously or subconsciously clouded the case.

481 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:42:46pm

re: #473 victor_yugo

A syphilitic narcissist?

A narcissistic syphilitic?

/shades of Sweet Transvestite

LOL!

482 NY Nana  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:43:04pm

re: #376 Maximu�

of a man who stormed into a Jewish center two years ago and shot six women, killing one, as he ranted against Israel and the Iraq war.

No big deal, they we're only Jews right? Hell perhaps Naveed Haq could run for mayor of Seattle.

/s

Only Jews...and he probably will run for Congress, and win.

/Being a member of the cult of islam is so today.

I fear for my kids and grandkids...

483 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:43:06pm

re: #453 Cognito

You're right. But there is something very strange going on here, this evening.


actually,it kinda surprises me sometimes that with the anonymity of this internet thingy that things aren't this nutso or worse more often...that there have been,by my count,3 or 4 wackadoos advocating the unthinkable is chilling,yet bearable...

484 docremulac  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:43:09pm

Sounds like we should have had tougher gun laws and tougher hate crime laws. (Against the people who enraged this poor muslim)

You know, we should take those same great laws that have so successfully kept drugs off the streets and apply them to guns. Then nobody would be able to buy them just like it's impossible to get illegal drugs.

In other words, let's solve the gun problem the same way we solved the drug problem.

Then we should invite the muslims over to have tea, show them how intellectual they are and they'll love us immediately.

Then we should be willing to compromise with them. If you're Jewish and a muslim wants to kill you, take the high road and offer to let him cut an arm or leg off.

Ok, enough sarcasm.

485 Neo Con since 9-11  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:43:12pm

re: #472 zombie

I think we have a +20 ding post

486 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:43:21pm

re: #476 really grumpy big dog Johnson

He won't be. There is no out clause of "treated and now sane". I think he killed himself a few years in lockup, while still in his twenties.

In lockup, he had no one else to satisfy his homical urges with.

I wonder what made him that way.

487 pat  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:43:30pm

re: #420 NY Nana

Found You. I posted a response NYNana, re WND and Schussel, but many hours later..

I did see that. She and WND have hated each other since she departed WNDs writer's pool. Both WND and Debbie can become irrational at times, particularly when discussing each other. As for the Schlussel claim, I think she is right. I have often had to second source WND, and it is a pain to do so. But Aaron Klein seems to be a concentrated problem, and one that WND may not be responsible for. Anyway, I second source, but they have some good stories, so I was as disturbed as you. And dschlusel , her LGF nic, does have a temper. I might add that I am a poster on her web site, and a frequent referrer.

488 Annelid[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:44:19pm
489 Intrepid  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:44:31pm

re: #445 Maximu�

Keep in mind there are alot of military vets in here....we who carried and used weapons for a living to protect innocents have a dim view of wanna-be mass murderers.

Yes, and some of those military vets have autistic children, and who would be aghast at some of the views expressed here.

My brother - USMC (1979-1983) - included, since it is his two sons who are autistic.

490 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:44:55pm

re: #458 freedomplow

Radical Islam will be defeated by the unrelenting sunlight of Freedom.

In the darkness of dictators, prison or hell, it will fester.


okey dokey.

491 realwest  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:45:15pm

re: #468 DesertSage
Sage, are you suggesting that a 12 or 13 year old "child" is incapable of committing murder? I mean deliberate intentional murder and that said child should be caught, he should not be arrested or if arrested, what would the charges be against him?

492 solomonpanting  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:45:55pm

re: #472 zombie

Were he to be convicted -- and I believe he deserved to be -- he deserves the death penalty in my view, because it is a "special circumstances" murder -- committed during the commission of a hate crime.
Thus, I see nothing wrong with those who are saying "Fry him!" They're basically saying what I just did here, but in shorthand.

Sadly, he is not eligible for the death penalty.

He faced life in prison without the possibility of parole if found guilty of the murder charge. Former King County Prosecutor Norm Maleng decided not to seek the death penalty because of Haq's history of mental problems.

493 Inquisitive  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:47:13pm

re: #451 Cognito

I'm saying there are instances of murder in which mitigating circumstances mean the death penalty is inapplicable. Like mental incapacity, or -- for the love of all that is good and decent -- childhood.

This is creeping me out.

re: #465 Bob in Breckenridge

I don't usually agree with you cog, but BULLSEYE!

I think I am going to have to go along with B in B and Cog on this one. No 10 year old child should be put to death under any circumstances. And there is some people out there with truly sever mental incapacity that should only be hospitalized for life--not put to death. And I am one that does strongly believe in the death penality for the murder and I would like to see it done for anyone that molest any child.

494 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:47:30pm

re: #466 realwest

I don't know how old you are, but in NYC about 30 years or so ago, drug dealers used to use legal minors to carry their drugs for them, knowing that the minors couldn't be convicted of a felony because of their being "children".
I also recall, around the same time, some folks had "children" shoot other people (I would suppose their competitors in the drug business) knowing that somone who is a legal minor cannot be charged as an adult, even if the crime was murder.
This DID IN FACT HAPPEN. Children as young as 12 or 13 would be given handguns and told to shoot so and so. And, many times, they did.
I'm not saying that children who murder ought necessarily receive the death penalty, but the fact that they are children ought not to, in and of itself, preclude the possiblity that they knew what they were doing (i.e., murdering someone) and ought to at least be tried as adults for that crime.
I know that doesn't go to the question of legally insane, but it does go to the question of punishing children who commit murder.


punishing,yes. but executing?

495 rustynail  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:47:35pm

re: #305 JeremyR

What, are you a follower of Sheriff Joe Arpaio? [Link: www.mcso.org...]
Good for you!

496 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:47:58pm

re: #482 NY Nana

Only Jews...and he probably will run for Congress, and win.

/Being a member of the cult of islam is so today.

I fear for my kids and grandkids...

I will defend them, and my kids, to my death...even if they don't understand why.

497 realwest  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:48:43pm

re: #479 Cognito Did you see my #466? If so do you have any comment on it?

498 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:49:02pm

re: #469 pat

Actually, I have been told that the standard for criminal insanity now differs from State to State. And whereas there were once three predominate legal schools of thought and standards, there are now multitudinous. And many legislatures are attempting to reign in judges that have expanded the concept to ensure that real criminals go free and those seeking to preserve life and liberty are convicted.

That's true, not sure about how many. Although if the defendant is claiming to be totally insane, the normal procedure is for the judge to apply whatever standard before trial, because, if insane, the defendant obviously can't understand the proceedings, can't assist in his own defense, and, therefore, can't be tried. He just goes away to a mental institution forever or until he's judged sane enough to stand trial. And then the criminal process starts again.

/some kind of temporary insanity defense is something totally different

499 Annelid[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:49:25pm
500 Opilio  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:49:26pm

re: #431 joecitizen

This is the Cognito post that confused me:

re: #296 Cognito

I'm not talking about murderers. Obviously. I'm talking about the mentally incapable.

A number of people here have said they deserve capital punishment. Which is an astonishing thing. To the point of being bizarre, and certainly fodder for people who dislike LGF.

So he appears to be saying that some people here have said that this non-murdering set of mentally incapable individuals should be executed. If true, I would find that astonishing as well.

If he's saying that the mentally incapable don't have the capacity to form an intent to kill, and therefore aren't murderers even if they kill someone, then he's just playing semantic games.

501 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:50:36pm

re: #483 joecitizen

actually,it kinda surprises me sometimes that with the anonymity of this internet thingy that things aren't this nutso or worse more often...that there have been,by my count,3 or 4 wackadoos advocating the unthinkable is chilling,yet bearable...

Consider the time, NOT the source. I'd guess a lot of it is alcohol-induced stupidity.

502 LeePro  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:50:49pm

re: #427 hermeneutics

It was an if ... then clause! The assumption was the media would not be responsible, but I get your drift.

How are you Lee?

I'm good, and   ;)   I knew what you meant!

How are you?

503 zombie  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:50:54pm

re: #485 Neo Con since 9-11

I think we have a +20 ding post

Only up to +7. Not bad for the middle of the night East Coast time. I'm happy with that.

504 Maximu§  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:50:57pm

re: #493 Inquisitive

If a 10 year old murdered my baby girl and was released at 16...I would be waiting for him with my rifle and scope.

Retribution.

505 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:51:03pm

re: #497 realwest

Did you see my #466? If so do you have any comment on it?

It is entirely foreign to me, this argument that children should be executed. Ever.

The children in your scenario were not rational murderers; they were weapons on two legs. The adults are responsible.

Ever.

506 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:51:57pm

re: #456 hermeneutics

Jeremy,

Mandy is rightfully trying to draw a continuum between the really, really insane and the merely disordered. Drawing a line between insantity and mental illness is difficult, but it must be done, at least in courts.

Courts have drawn that line incorrectly so many times that people, like you, are frustrated because not-so-insane people are released by juries/judges. This is plainly wrong.

But Mandy is talking about those who truly are insane -- they are unable to determine right from wrong and cannot help themselves. Those are the people who deserve time in a hospital, not a prison.

It is a silppery line, though. People who are merely ill, but not insane, sometimes go free. Wrongly. But people who are guilty often go free too.

No good answers here, huh?

I've seen too many people use an insanity cop out when they were by no means insane. In 99% of cases, the determination is made after the crime based on studies after the Crime. A good lawyer who want to use the insanity will coach his client in what to do and say. He will work to get a lenient examiner. I have see nseveral trials in which the person was clearly sane.
As to kids, at some point children learn the diffrence between right and wrong. That is what parents do, teach them. Some times kids who understand what they are doing kill. Several years ago in Wisconcin, several boys killed a girl and buried her body. The oldest boy was eight. The story first broke as a missing girl, then her body was found, and attention turned to several known molesters in the area. In the end, the boys were found out. One had nightmares about it and told his parents who told the police. The boys planned it and carried out the crime in great detail. Police ignored many clues at the scene because the idea of children killing was beyond them.
Some kids kill and have no clue, some kill by accident. There is a diffrence.
Of one thing I am sure, a ten year old who murders will never be a safe menber of society.

507 Annelid[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:52:05pm
508 realwest  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:52:46pm

re: #494 joecitizen Ah, finally somone who is reading comments.
What charges would you file against said child?
Would you charge him/her with murder? Would you sentence him/her to life imprisonment?
What would you suggest?

509 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:52:50pm

re: #500 Opilio

Someone seemed to think that I was arguing against the death penalty for all murderers.

Thus my response was that I'm not talking about murderers, in general. I'm talking about people who are clinically insane, who kill someone.

We don't kill the insane, in America.

510 zombie  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:52:59pm

re: #492 solomonpanting

Sadly, he is not eligible for the death penalty.

He faced life in prison without the possibility of parole if found guilty of the murder charge. Former King County Prosecutor Norm Maleng decided not to seek the death penalty because of Haq's history of mental problems.

He's eligible for the death penalty -- they're just not seeking it.

511 rustynail  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:53:03pm

re: #305 JeremyR


As far as the death sentence, only allow lethal injection for those who choose immediate execution, within 48 hours of conviction. For the rest, a Texas rope dance or what ever method suits the jury.


I'm with you, although, I think the method of execution should match the method of the crime ... stabbing - death by stabbing; gut shot ... death by abdominal wound; etc.!

512 LeePro  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:53:15pm

re: #432 MandyManners

They were NOT insane. They were evil, probably narcissists and sociopaths. Personality disorders are not mental illnesses.

Excellent point, Mandy!
So many do not understand that.

513 Annelid[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:53:27pm
514 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:53:30pm

re: #507 Annelid

Good grief.

515 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:54:26pm

re: #470 Bob in Breckenridge

Now you're getting totally fucking stupid. Are you drinking?

I don't drink. Maybe you should.

516 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:54:33pm

re: #486 MandyManners

I wonder what made him that way.

His brain wiring was wrong. While he intrinsically knew it was wrong to kill people, he couldn't discern the difference between stepping on a spider or strangling a little girl to death. At the age of sixteen, it was clear that he had homicidal urges that he could not control, even though he had the capability of knowing it was wrong.

It was a very sad case, but not all people are alike.

517 Cognito[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:54:37pm
518 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:54:56pm

re: #503 zombie

zombie- I'll email you later today re the DNC convention in Denver.

519 LeePro  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:55:20pm

re: #438 Opilio

All it takes to hang a jury is one person. One stupid person. Or one person with an agenda. Or one person with integrity. It could have been 11-1 to acquit, and juror #12 kept him from walking free. Or it could have been 11-1 to convict. If jury vote was published, I haven't seen it.

IIRC, it was about half-and-half

520 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:55:32pm

re: #502 LeePro

I'm okay, LP. How are you feeling after all the oral surgery? Is it done?

521 BlueCanuck[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:55:51pm
522 Annelid[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:55:54pm
523 realwest  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:55:56pm

re: #505 Cognito I've no doubt at all that "adults" were responsible for arming the child and telling him/her to go shoot someone.
Do you think the child has any responsibility at all for that crime and if so, what?

524 zombie  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:56:20pm

re: #518 Bob in Breckenridge

Okey dokey.

525 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:56:38pm

re: #491 realwest

Sage, are you suggesting that a 12 or 13 year old "child" is incapable of committing murder? I mean deliberate intentional murder and that said child should be caught, he should not be arrested or if arrested, what would the charges be against him?

No, no, no.....that wasn't what I was saying at all. I was responding to Jeremy when he used the murderous Afghani child as an analogy to the question of whether we should have the death penalty for juveniles.

Of course, if a kid walks up to you blazing away with an AK47, you have every right to defend yourself and kill the little bastard if you have to. Killing in self defense is no crime, even if it's a child that you have to kill.

But that's different than a child who commits murder and is tried by the state. I don't believe that we as a society should ever impose the death penalty on a juvenile. Especially not one who's 12 or 13. There's a big difference between a killing in self defense and a state execution.

526 Racer X  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:56:49pm
Comments are open and unmoderated, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Little Green Footballs.


Just thought that needed repeating right about now.

527 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:56:52pm

re: #522 Annelid

You have gone to far.

You and a number of other people.

This is disgusting.

528 Annelid[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:57:17pm
529 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:57:41pm

"Too" far, that is.

530 Inquisitive[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:57:51pm
531 zombie  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:57:52pm

re: #522 Annelid

Unfortunately for you, the Supreme Court has already ruled on such things long ago, and found them unconstitutional. Sorry.

532 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:58:11pm

re: #528 Annelid

Cogs -

Hey you don't like it...don't read it.

Oh. Somehow I get the feeling I won't have to, for long.

533 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:58:13pm

re: #527 Cognito

You have gone to far.

You and a number of other people.

This is disgusting.

Yeah, different people see different disgusting things...

534 NY Nana  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:58:28pm

re: #376 Maximu�

For anyone who wants to read about this POS, Daniel Pipes has an incredible article:

At about 4 p.m. on July 28, on the eve of the Jewish sabbath, a Muslim terrorist of Pakistani origins named Naveed Afzal Haq forced a 14-year-old girl to get him into the Jewish Federation of Greater Seattle building by holding a gun to her back. He then pulled out the two large-caliber semi-automatic pistols he had just purchased and went on a murderous rampage. Mr. Haq killed one woman, Pam Waechter, 58, an assistant director at the federation, and injured five others, one of whom was 17 weeks pregnant.

Eye-witnesses report that Haq announced, "I'm a Muslim American; I'm angry at Israel," and then began shooting; that he "told the police that it was a hostage situation and he wanted us to get our weapons out of Israel" and that he was upset about what was going on in Israel. To a 911 dispatcher, Haq announced: "I want these Jews to get out. ... I'm upset at your foreign policy. These are Jews. I'm tired of getting pushed around, and our people getting pushed around by the situation in the Middle East. ... I'm an American too but I just want our people out of Iraq."

Naveed Haq in police custody.

Some 12 minutes later, Mr. Haq, 30, quietly turned himself in to the police. Jailed without bail, he was charged with aggravated murder in the first degree.

This atrocity prompts several reflections.

First, law enforcement has, as is its wont, ignored what is self-evidently a case of radical Islamic terrorism. David Gomez of the FBI's Seattle office commented: "We believe ... it's a lone individual acting out his antagonism. There's nothing to indicate that it's terrorism-related." As in other cases, if the police cannot connect a terrorist to Al Qaeda or some other group, he is deemed not a terrorist.

Second, Muslim hatred and violence toward Jews points to the golden age of American Jewry coming to an end. Ironically, in April 2002, in the very building where Mr. Haq rampaged, I made this point to an audience of Jewish leaders, who seemed oblivious to my message. The president of the Jewish Federation of Greater Seattle, Robin Boehler, demonstrated how little my warnings penetrated when she said of Mr. Haq's assault, "We didn't believe something like this could happen."

Third, Mr. Haq is not someone who would arouse suspicions of jihad. His parents, Mian and Nahida, arrived in the United States in the 1970s, where Naveed was born. His father worked at the Hanford nuclear site. While in high school, Naveed won a $250 award for finishing second in an essay contest sponsored by the U.S. Institute of Peace. He graduated with honors in biology from Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute and earned a second degree, in electrical engineering, from Washington State University. He also studied at the University of Pennsylvania.

Mr. Haq drank alcohol at a bar alone and joined social-networking websites. His rap sheet consisted of a pending lewd conduct charge for having unzipped his pants in March at a shopping mall and exposed himself to young women. He has been in and out of courts to deal with such matters as traffic violations and unemployment benefits. Most surprising of all, he was baptized into the Word of Faith Church last December, but returned to Islam shortly thereafter.

Fourth, Mr. Haq's actions are a clear instance of "Sudden Jihad Syndrome," whereby normal-appearing Muslims unpredictably become violent. His attack confirms my oft-repeated call for special scrutiny of Muslims. Because the identity of the next homicidal jihadi cannot be anticipated, Muslims generally need to come under heightened observation. I regret writing this as much as you dislike reading it, but it needs to be said and operated upon.[...]

Please read it all, and see what you think now.

535 Annelid[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:58:41pm
536 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:58:44pm

re: #531 zombie

Unfortunately for you, the Supreme Court has already ruled on such things long ago, and found them unconstitutional. Sorry.

Unconstitutionality is the least of it, really.

537 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:58:48pm

re: #515 JeremyR

I don't drink. Maybe you should.

I already am, and I'm make wayyyyy more sense than you ever will. Seriously.

538 Bacchus's daddy[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:58:52pm
539 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:59:17pm

re: #506 JeremyR

I've seen too many people use an insanity cop out when they were by no means insane. In 99% of cases, the determination is made after the crime based on studies after the Crime. A good lawyer who want to use the insanity will coach his client in what to do and say. He will work to get a lenient examiner. I have see nseveral trials in which the person was clearly sane.
As to kids, at some point children learn the diffrence between right and wrong. That is what parents do, teach them. Some times kids who understand what they are doing kill. Several years ago in Wisconcin, several boys killed a girl and buried her body. The oldest boy was eight. The story first broke as a missing girl, then her body was found, and attention turned to several known molesters in the area. In the end, the boys were found out. One had nightmares about it and told his parents who told the police. The boys planned it and carried out the crime in great detail. Police ignored many clues at the scene because the idea of children killing was beyond them.
Some kids kill and have no clue, some kill by accident. There is a diffrence.
Of one thing I am sure, a ten year old who murders will never be a safe menber of society.

That's a good response, Jeremy. We both agree that the insanity plea is abused and that guilty people are too often set free.

And I hear your concern that children who murder or commit heinous crimes may never be safe within society. But don't you think children, particularly the very young, should be given a second chance, at least some of the time? Its just hard to know when children merit rehabilitation and when they should be locked up to protect the rest of us.

540 realwest  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 10:59:36pm

re: #519 LeePro Hi {Lee} how are you doing?
And, um, where did you get the "iirc it was about half and half"? Did the prosecutors poll or question the jurors?

541 Annelid[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:00:01pm
542 victor_yugo  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:00:07pm

re: #509 Cognito

We don't kill the insane, in America.

I think you meant: We don't execute the insane.

However, the insane attack people all the time, and are killed in self-defense.

I'm just making a semantic point.

543 jordash1212  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:00:21pm

A traveshamockery indeed.

544 Maximu§  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:00:24pm

re: #522 Annelid


Cleanup on isle #522.

545 Bob in Breckenridge[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:00:52pm
546 Annelid[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:01:15pm
547 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:01:23pm

re: #542 victor_yugo

I think you meant: We don't execute the insane.

However, the insane attack people all the time, and are killed in self-defense.

I'm just making a semantic point.

Yes, of course.

548 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:01:27pm

re: #511 rustynail

I'm with you, although, I think the method of execution should match the method of the crime ... stabbing - death by stabbing; gut shot ... death by abdominal wound; etc.!

Some juris would not go for that and would acquit for that reason. Therefore I'd let the jury pick the method.

549 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:01:49pm

Stinky, clean-up in aisle #513...

550 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:01:59pm

re: #512 LeePro

Excellent point, Mandy!
So many do not understand that.

I guarantee you that our prisons are filled with sociopaths and narcissists.

551 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:02:09pm

I can't take this anymore. Good night. Perhaps tomorrow will be rational and uplifting.

552 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:02:18pm

re: #546 Annelid

Aww bobby, your mad...

Stop.

553 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:02:51pm

re: #513 Annelid

Has anyone else reported this?

554 victor_yugo  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:02:51pm

All right, y'all, see #545 above?

Charles (or his minion) is watching.

"Conduct yourselves accordingly."

555 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:02:51pm

re: #534 NY Nana

For anyone who wants to read about this POS, Daniel Pipes has an incredible article:


Please read it all, and see what you think now.

I really like the phrase "sudden jihad syndrome". We'll be seeing more of it in the years to come. There is no safe place.

556 Annelid[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:02:54pm
557 Racer X  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:03:30pm

Lots of posts getting deleted. The stick next?

558 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:03:38pm

re: #508 realwest

Ah, finally somone who is reading comments.
What charges would you file against said child?
Would you charge him/her with murder? Would you sentence him/her to life imprisonment?
What would you suggest?

as (thankfully) a non attorney(sorry real!),I can only go by what my heart and mind in combination say to me..and they say that executing a child for committing what could be considered the very adult act of murder is as wrong as executing an obviously mentally impaired person is..it just doesn't square with my sense of how we should be..appropriate punishments,length of sentence,chance for rehab etc I'll have to leave those questions to you cats in the higher pay grade..

559 realwest  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:04:01pm

re: #525 DesertSage
"There's a big difference between a killing in self defense and a state execution."
OK - so a 13 year old murders an elderly woman and steals her jewelery - if an adult he or she would be tried on charges of Murder in the First Degree - intentionally taking the life of another human being.
What do you think the 13 year old should be charged with and what punishment, if any, do you think the child should receive?

560 Opilio  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:04:10pm

re: #509 Cognito

Someone seemed to think that I was arguing against the death penalty for all murderers.

Thus my response was that I'm not talking about murderers, in general. I'm talking about people who are clinically insane, who kill someone.

We don't kill the insane, in America.

OK. I'm caught up now. The phrase "who kill someone" clears my confusion.

561 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:04:17pm

re: #516 really grumpy big dog Johnson

His brain wiring was wrong. While he intrinsically knew it was wrong to kill people, he couldn't discern the difference between stepping on a spider or strangling a little girl to death. At the age of sixteen, it was clear that he had homicidal urges that he could not control, even though he had the capability of knowing it was wrong.

It was a very sad case, but not all people are alike.

Thank goodness people like that are rare.

562 Maximu§  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:05:25pm

Night gang....keep your powder dry.

563 Intrepid  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:05:43pm

re: #541 Annelid

You are just batting 0 tonight. Perhaps it's time to give it a rest?

564 Bob in Breckenridge[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:06:09pm
565 Annelid[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:06:33pm
566 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:06:39pm

re: #553 MandyManners

Has anyone else reported this?

I did, and it was deleted.

567 realwest  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:06:56pm

FUCK, no report function - CHARLES clean up on aisle #513.

568 victor_yugo  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:07:00pm

Charles, if you're watching:

I think I just saw a glitch. Before I posted my #554 above, I did see that comment #545 had been deleted, but the comment's link (to the left of the football) was still visible. After doing a refresh, that comment link disappeared.

I don't know if it's anything worth hunting down.

569 Bacchus's daddy[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:07:01pm
570 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:07:15pm

re: #528 Annelid

Cogs -

Hey you don't like it...don't read it.


were you born fucked up like this or did it kinda grow on you,like fungus?

571 Opilio  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:07:32pm

Man, Stinky B. & Co. are getting a workout all of a sudden

572 victor_yugo  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:07:48pm

As I type this, I can see the comment link for #564.

573 Intrepid  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:07:57pm

re: #553 MandyManners

I did. No place for that trash here.

574 victor_yugo  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:08:07pm

And now the comment link for #564 is gone.

575 Annelid[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:08:17pm
576 Inquisitive  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:08:44pm

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR DELETING MY COMMENT!---GUESS IT IS TIME FOR ME TO LEAVE FOR THE NIGHT----BLOOD IS BOILING--AND NO I AM NOT DRINKING

577 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:08:55pm

re: #575 Annelid

I'm amazed you're still posting here.

578 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:09:06pm

re: #567 realwest

FUCK, no report function - CHARLES clean up on aisle #513.

It's the exclamation mark to the right of the quotation marks.

579 zombie  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:09:16pm

Bob, I think the problem is that you cited or quoted the original deleted comment.

LGF rule #1: if you think a comment should be deleted, DO NOT QUOTE IT, because that just spreads the mess around. Your comment will have to be deleted too, even if you were quoting the original comment only to condemn it. Because your comment contains the "evidence" of the original comment.

That has happened frequently here: one bad comment leads to 20 deletions, because 19 people quoted it.

580 Annelid[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:09:32pm
581 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:09:41pm

re: #566 Bob in Breckenridge

I did, and it was deleted.

I still see it.

582 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:09:45pm

re: #567 realwest

I tried that, realwest, and got deleted.

583 zombie  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:09:53pm

Oops, it just happened again - - I was addressing a comment that was already gone!

Stinky's on the prowl tonight!

584 realwest  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:09:56pm

re: #566 Bob in Breckenridge Huh, it's still on my screen. You however were deleted on your #564.

585 LeePro  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:10:04pm

re: #475 Maximu§

Anyone for a glass of rum?

ONLY A GLASS?
  : : : slaps own mouth : : :

19 years — sometimes I still fergit!

586 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:10:30pm

re: #581 MandyManners

I still see it.

What number, mandy

587 NY Nana  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:10:46pm

re: #555 really grumpy big dog Johnson

I really like the phrase "sudden jihad syndrome". We'll be seeing more of it in the years to come. There is no safe place.

That there is no safe place was a lesson learned so horribly on Sept.11...but people want to forget.

And that is suicidal....

I have to go to sleep. This thread has been quite a learning experience.

G'nite, all.

588 Intrepid  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:11:03pm

re: #565 Annelid

Intrepid -

Why? Because I don't agree with you and your pals?

Hee. You tickle me greatly......

I'm hungry, so I feast on your gamy buttocks.

589 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:11:03pm

It is cool watching the thread shrink as posts get deleted.

590 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:11:21pm

re: #559 realwest

"There's a big difference between a killing in self defense and a state execution."
OK - so a 13 year old murders an elderly woman and steals her jewelery - if an adult he or she would be tried on charges of Murder in the First Degree - intentionally taking the life of another human being.
What do you think the 13 year old should be charged with and what punishment, if any, do you think the child should receive?

Wow, a 13 year old? Same charges - Murder in the First Degree. If found guilty - no death penalty, not for a child that young. But I would incarcerate him until age 25 (at least), maybe 30. Then probation for the next 20 years. If he so much as jaywalks, throw him back in the slammer.

I don't know what you read of mine that gives you the impression that I would be lenient to these kids.

591 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:11:23pm

re: #539 hermeneutics

That's a good response, Jeremy. We both agree that the insanity plea is abused and that guilty people are too often set free.

And I hear your concern that children who murder or commit heinous crimes may never be safe within society. But don't you think children, particularly the very young, should be given a second chance, at least some of the time? Its just hard to know when children merit rehabilitation and when they should be locked up to protect the rest of us.

If what the kid did was a reasoned act, I am inclined to not do so in the case of murder. If a child is so warped as to murder, Ther are serious wiring problems that a few years in juvi won't solve. Look atthe kids in the African thug wars who take up arms and kill. They are far more heinous then anything you could immagine.
Some kids are too young to reason including many ten year olds. They might pick up a gun, and having been out and shot it with daddy or uncle, fire it and kill some one but not reasoning. whereas a kid might do the same thing in cold calculated reason, and that would be murder.
Some here, like Cog fail to understand the diffrence.

592 Opilio  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:11:48pm

re: #581 MandyManners

I still see it.

I see dead comments...

593 Annelid[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:11:52pm
594 Racer X[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:12:09pm
595 zombie  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:12:38pm

I think Charles is trying to tell us something:

Don't discuss that topic!

596 realwest  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:12:50pm

re: #578 MandyManners
Oops, sorry, old habits die hard! Thank you.

597 Annelid[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:12:55pm
598 victor_yugo  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:13:00pm

re: #585 LeePro

ONLY A GLASS?
  : : : slaps own mouth : : :

19 years — sometimes I still fergit!

I still have most of a bottle. If you want some, here ya go.

And some for Stinky B., too.

It's been a helluva night for me.

599 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:13:02pm

re: #586 Bob in Breckenridge

What number, mandy

It's gone.

600 BlueCanuck  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:13:40pm

Okay, I make a comment and boom now it's gone. Guess it didn't pass the sniff test.

601 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:13:47pm

The incredible shrinking thread.

602 Bob in Breckenridge[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:13:48pm
603 Annelid[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:14:47pm
604 Render  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:14:56pm

There's an empty spot in the garage where I park the V-8 Chainsaw.

Has anybody seen it around?

MISSING
PARTS,
R

605 victor_yugo  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:14:59pm

re: #602 Bob in Breckenridge

For that topic, if you wish to make an extended comment, I will create a special entry on my weblog just for you.

606 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:15:27pm

re: #544 Maximu§

Cleanup on isle #522.

/just hit the exclamation button on the comment, aisle cleanup comments are so yesterday

607 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:15:36pm

re: #603 Annelid

Apparently you don't get the 'insane' part.

I am -- still -- amazed you're allowed to continue posting here.

608 Bacchus's daddy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:15:42pm

re: #579 zombie

Sorry, I replied to and quoted a pretty offensive comment- if traced back to it's starting point. What's worse is that I got caught up with it and dignified it with a response. Anyway, ugly notions have cropped up and been nipped. Good night all.

609 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:15:58pm

re: #604 Render

One of your funniest.

610 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:16:20pm

re: #607 Cognito

Apparently you don't get the 'insane' part.

I am -- still -- amazed you're allowed to continue posting here.

Agreed, Cog...

611 Annelid[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:17:11pm
612 NY Nana  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:17:42pm

re: #585 LeePro

AArrgh! Missed reading your posts...too tired to see straight!

G'nite!

613 jenv  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:17:57pm

Since this killing spree was part of a single act or event, how could he possibly be "not guilty" of attempting to murder one of the women without being "not guilty" of attempting to murder the other 4? I know Seattle is a hotbed of moonbattery but this is ridiculous.

614 Intrepid  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:18:31pm

re: #593 Annelid

So glad. I'm still feasting.

And I'm southern, so this could go on for a while!

Num num num...

615 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:18:34pm

re: #611 Annelid

Best to stop now, I suspect.

At the risk of addressing something that's none of my business, I can only assume that one of Charles's deletion helpers is at work here, and while he or she may have the ability to delete, might not have the ability to ban.

616 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:19:09pm

re: #595 zombie

I think Charles is trying to tell us something:

Don't discuss that topic!

Sure, it's not a monitor? Otherwise, you'd think the stick would already be flying.

/damn, Comcast resets my modem and all hell breaks out in the five minutes before I can reload

617 Annelid[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:19:18pm
618 victor_yugo  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:19:20pm

Bob,

Click my nick. Then click the title of the first article. Add your comment, and I will put it into the main body of the posting.

619 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:19:23pm
620 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:19:39pm

re: #613 jenv

Since this killing spree was part of a single act or event, how could he possibly be "not guilty" of attempting to murder one of the women without being "not guilty" of attempting to murder the other 4? I know Seattle is a hotbed of moonbattery but this is ridiculous.

It might've had something to do with the one charge being a higher degree of homicide than the other.

621 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:19:59pm
622 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:20:03pm

re: #611 Annelid

Cogs -

So g0d forbid some loon broke into your house and killed a love one...
and he was declared "mentally challenged".
You'd rather have him locked up or deep fried?

You didn't ask me, but you're a total clueless fucking moron.

623 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:20:17pm

Why does Bob keep getting deleted?

624 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:20:33pm

re: #615 Cognito

Best to stop now, I suspect.

At the risk of addressing something that's none of my business, I can only assume that one of Charles's deletion helpers is at work here, and while he or she may have the ability to delete, might not have the ability to ban.

surely this is the case and this stink will shortly be banned...

625 Annelid[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:20:53pm
626 LeePro  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:21:05pm

re: #472 zombie

Another Zombie WOW!

The same reasoning applies equally to the stupid directive that all accused may only be referred to as "alleged" perpetrator, or the crime, the "alleged" murder (or whatever). EVEN WHEN THE CRIMINAL IS CAUGHT RED-HANDED!

627 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:21:39pm
628 zombie  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:21:45pm

re: #623 DesertSage

Why does Bob keep getting deleted?

I think because he keeps referring to the original comment in order to condemn it.

I think we've discovered a new "off-limits topic."

629 Salem  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:21:46pm

Don't Even Trip!

630 Mike Nargizian  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:21:49pm

Seattle is one of the meccas of left wing political correct thinking".
In that mindset it's understandable if a Muslim Jihadi storms into a Jewish center with a semi automatic and while ranting against Jooos murders people while sitting at their cubby holes (It's not 1rst Degree Murder either) -
You see bcs you have to understand the Israeli war in Lebanon was going on at that time... with Hezbollah of course making up all sorts of stories...

LEST ANYONE - let alone a Jew did the same in a US Mosque! it would be headlined on CNN for weeks.. let alone Al Jazeera the BBC etc... not to mention the Arab World every Imam all over the fucking world, CAIR etc... thered be Muslims violently protesting in NYC and Dearborn like crazy!

Does anyone even remember hearing about this when it happened 2 years ago? outside of LGF that is!

631 Racer X  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:21:49pm

Whatever

632 realwest  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:22:00pm

re: #613 jenv

Ah, late to the thread eh? Well I'll save you the trouble of reading it all - it started as a more or less rational discussion of this case and then, with amazing rapidity, sunk to very low depths indeed.
Just click on one of Cognitos' posts (on his avatar) and read all about it.

633 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:22:12pm

re: #623 DesertSage

Why does Bob keep getting deleted?

Quoting bad things? I have no idea, I was offline when it apparently exploded.

/what the hell started all this?

634 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:22:24pm

re: #623 DesertSage

Why does Bob keep getting deleted?


for addressing the topic of asshole girls many foul posts...

635 Opilio  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:23:12pm

re: #631 Racer X

Whatever

Come on. You could warn a person... That's just nasty.

636 stevieray  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:23:20pm

re: #604 Render

I need one of those! I don't know why... I have no use for it... but I MUST have one!

637 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:23:31pm

re: #628 zombie

I think because he keeps referring to the original comment in order to condemn it.

I think we've discovered a new "off-limits topic."

Ahh, I see. I thought it was something he said.

638 zombie  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:23:40pm

re: #633 Killian Bundy

/what the hell started all this?

To even merely describe it would invite deletion, apparently. Sorry!

639 Bacchus's daddy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:24:07pm

Charles, a heads up.
My response to #541 was deleted, but 541 is till there. I could be mistaken, but I don't think my response was the offensive part.

Good night.

640 paradox42  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:24:35pm

It is getting late and I'm too damn tired to think clearly about what I post so I'll play it safe and say good night everybody.

641 Racer X  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:24:43pm

I'm still wondering why my comment was deleted.

642 abolitionist  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:24:50pm

re: #433 Cognito

Good Lord.

That is despicable.

Children should not be executed. Ever.

Gotta tell you. This is dark stuff, tonight.

I was just reviewing some "Palestinean child abuse pics" on my HD. One has a kid about 8 or 9 in camoflage, on the ground, aiming a real (or pretend) weapon directly at the camera.

I noticed a detail I'd missed before. Kid had his long finger on the trigger, with his index/trigger finger sticking straight out. In my estimation, his index/trigger finger was worn bloody raw.

I too fear very dark days ahead.

643 BlueCanuck  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:24:59pm

re: #631 Racer X

What are those things? Beach balls?

/not going to go further.
//gotta love the London Sun though.

644 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:25:02pm

re: #632 realwest

Ah, late to the thread eh? Well I'll save you the trouble of reading it all - it started as a more or less rational discussion of this case and then, with amazing rapidity, sunk to very low depths indeed.
Just click on one of Cognitos' posts (on his avatar) and read all about it.


in all truth,real,cognito was truly the rational poster on this thread and definately not the problem...

645 realwest  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:25:31pm

Well good night all y'all - it's WAAAAY past my bedtime and I was soo hoping that after we disected this ridiculous case, that we would get into a RATIONAL DISCUSSION of crimes and the appropriate punishment for same, but alas it was not to be.
Have a good night y'all and I hope I see most of you down the road.

646 Bob in Breckenridge[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:26:00pm
647 Opilio  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:26:30pm

re: #639 Bacchus's daddy

Charles, a heads up.
My response to #541 was deleted, but 541 is till there. I could be mistaken, but I don't think my response was the offensive part.

Good night.

No, it's gone. Sometimes you have to refresh to see the current state of things.

648 gop_patriot  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:26:32pm

re: #631 Racer X

Whatever

OMG :X

649 annelid[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:26:53pm
650 inquisitive  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:26:58pm

re: #633 Killian Bundy

Quoting bad things? I have no idea, I was offline when it apparently exploded.

/what the hell started all this?


A post by some stupid moron that has now been thankfully deleted!

651 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:27:09pm

re: #645 realwest

g'nite RW.
Even though you didn't respond to my response :'(

Weet dreams!

652 american jewess in jerusalem  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:27:18pm

If you know anything at all about the Pacific Northwest, then you know that it is Moonbat Central up there.

What a complete waste of the taxpayers' money to have to go through yet another expensive trial for this barbaric animal, all because some Seattle moonbats don't know the difference between right and wrong, and aren't willing to confront evil.

653 BlueCanuck  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:27:19pm

re: #645 realwest

Well good night all y'all - it's WAAAAY past my bedtime and I was soo hoping that after we disected this ridiculous case, that we would get into a RATIONAL DISCUSSION of crimes and the appropriate punishment for same, but alas it was not to be.
Have a good night y'all and I hope I see most of you down the road.

I don't think that such a disussion is even possible. To many viewpoints and opinions on that topic. Even I have several that don't even mesh properly.

654 realwest  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:27:59pm

re: #644 joecitizen
Did I say Cognito was the problem this time? NO, I merely suggested following his comments to see how the thread had degenerated, that's all.
Good night y'all.

655 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:28:27pm

re: #642 abolitionist

I was just reviewing some "Palestinean child abuse pics" on my HD. One has a kid about 8 or 9 in camoflage, on the ground, aiming a real (or pretend) weapon directly at the camera.

I noticed a detail I'd missed before. Kid had his long finger on the trigger, with his index/trigger finger sticking straight out. In my estimation, his index/trigger finger was worn bloody raw.

I too fear very dark days ahead.

Don't know the pics, but its possible his index is too short to propperly fit the trigger. esp on an AK.

656 ggt  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:28:45pm

Good Morning Lizards! It's storming in the Very Far Western Suburbs of Chicagoland and, although I normally sleep thru such happenings, I am not tonite.

How are you-all and whad'I miss?

657 Opilio  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:29:33pm

re: #656 ggt

Good Morning Lizards! It's storming in the Very Far Western Suburbs of Chicagoland and, although I normally sleep thru such happenings, I am not tonite.

How are you-all and whad'I miss?

You really, REALLY don't want to know.

658 Intrepid  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:29:46pm

Annelid is the one who has been putting out the outrageous crap.

He/She has been here since July of 2004, and has about as many posts as I have, and I've been here since early April of this year.

Bring.It.On.

659 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:29:47pm

re: #654 realwest

Did I say Cognito was the problem this time? NO, I merely suggested following his comments to see how the thread had degenerated, that's all.
Good night y'all.

okey dokey.

660 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:30:09pm

re: #656 ggt

Good Morning Lizards! It's storming in the Very Far Western Suburbs of Chicagoland and, although I normally sleep thru such happenings, I am not tonite.

How are you-all and whad'I miss?

You missed a bunch of Pflagerisms from annelid.

661 BlueCanuck  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:30:27pm

re: #656 ggt

How are you-all and whad'I miss?

Don''t ask, got really ugly there for a little while.

I don't think we should even remember having this conversation

662 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:30:39pm

re: #649 annelid

I've never said this before but, maybe it's time for you to go to bed.

663 annelid[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:30:46pm
664 annelid[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:31:04pm
665 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:32:42pm

re: #662 MandyManners

I've never said this before but, maybe it's time for you to go to bed.


or go to hell..

666 Bob in Breckenridge[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:32:52pm
667 inquisitive  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:32:57pm

I was going to leave but my blood is boiling and I am so mad I don't think I will be able to sleep. I was patiently waiting to see if Annelid was going to get banned for the post--I guess not--they were just deleted.

668 victor_yugo  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:32:58pm

Off to the bath. Back in a little while.

669 ggt  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:33:11pm

re: #660 DesertSage


ah! who?

670 Opilio  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:33:20pm

Gee, what do you think would happen if we all put Annelid on GAZE?

671 Intrepid  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:33:22pm

re: #663 annelid

Intrepid -

Because I have a life and don't spend every waking minute on a forum.

Maybe you don't have a mother who has dementia, either. And maybe you don't have the internet as an escape.

And maybe, just maybe, you can't grab your ass with both hands, bitch.

672 realwest  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:33:42pm

re: #651 DesertSage What post? Did you ever respond to my #559?
Ah to hell with it, too many people who want to kill children and too many who want to see children who murder people go scott free. I've had enough.
If you intentionally and with malice aforethought murder another human being you deserve to be punished. Either by execution, life in Jail with no fucking parole or incarceration in an institutuion for the truly insane. Period.

673 Annelid[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:33:49pm
674 zombie  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:34:06pm

Bob in B, PLEASE read comment #628 if you continue to be mystified. Apparently you just keep tracking it around the house. Your comments on that topic only seem to last a few minutes at most. Perhaps it would be wise to cease referring to it.

I don't think Charles is blaming you for bringing up the issue, just that you won't let it die.

675 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:34:12pm

re: #664 annelid

Mandy -

why?
I'm fine.

You're not fine. 90% of agree. You're sick.

676 Alberta Oil Peon  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:34:16pm

re: #268 realwest

Yeah, or the Son of Sam (but he got convicted anyway, the judge not finding it "credible" that his dog told him to kill those people).

And that's what perlexes me about this whole case.
If he really was "legally insane" again, at the risk of being redundant, that decision in at least New York State, is usually made before the trial before the jury begins, as IF the defendant WAS legally insane, he would be unable to assist his defense lawyers in any significant way.
How the hell did Washington State reach the brilliant idea that the issue of his legal sanity should be left up to a jury?

If an accused's defense is "not guilty by reason of insanity", then it pretty well has to be decided by the jury. The question the jury must ponder is: "Was the accused able to appreciate the nature and quality of his act?"

The pre-trial mental examination you describe is for those cases where the perp's actions have been so bizarre that it is necessary to determine if they are even fit to stand trial.

I'd say that clearly Haq was sane when committed these crimes. He knew he was assaulting humans, he knew they were Jews, and he uttered statements of hatred. He planned the crime, and bought a gun with which to carry it out. He was sick in the head, but, IMHO, sane in the strict legal sense.

677 BlueCanuck  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:34:25pm

re: #666 Bob in Breckenridge

I think it's the same reason I was too. We all invoked Godwins Law in one way shape or another. As well as alluding to what was in the original post.

/way I am seeing it now.

678 LeePro  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:34:34pm

re: #520 hermeneutics

I'm okay, LP. How are you feeling after all the oral surgery? Is it done?

Not until mid-July.
Pain a little better — can eat "soft" food.

: /

679 ggt  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:34:52pm

re: #661 BlueCanuck

we had a conversation? ;)

So, did you all hear Rezko went down today!

680 Cognito  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:34:52pm

Whoa, whoa.

I think that if it's possible, we should all step away for a while, and see what happens.

I will.

681 Annelid[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:34:59pm
682 inquisitive  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:34:59pm

I know why mine was deleted--I used the qoute button to reply to his/her comment instead of reply

683 Opilio  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:35:03pm

re: #667 inquisitive

I was going to leave but my blood is boiling and I am so mad I don't think I will be able to sleep. I was patiently waiting to see if Annelid was going to get banned for the post--I guess not--they were just deleted.

Total speculation here, but I don't think the Great Green Lizard is minding the store right now. Deletions right and left, but no banning stick or harshly worded "knock it off you knuckleheads" post.

684 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:35:39pm

re: #666 Bob in Breckenridge

Bob, stop talking about it. Zombie explained it, we all know that you didn't do anything wrong.

Let it go so you won't get banned or anything.

685 Annelid[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:35:53pm
686 Opilio  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:36:06pm

re: #679 ggt

we had a conversation? ;)

So, did you all hear Rezko went down today!

I thought that would be a lively topic here this evening, maybe even worthy of its own thread, but it was not to be.

687 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:36:34pm

re: #673 Annelid

Joey -

You sooo angry.
You,like Bobby, need a relaxing hobby.
May I suggest coloring?


may I suggest you get on your knees and pay homage to a truly superior human being..scumbag troll

688 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:37:22pm

re: #672 realwest

#590

689 Annelid[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:37:28pm
690 Racer X  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:38:04pm

re: #672 realwest

If you intentionally and with malice aforethought murder another human being you deserve to be punished. Either by execution, life in Jail with no fucking parole or incarceration in an institutuion for the truly insane. Period.

Hi RW - I think most agree with this post. The question was should a child be put to death for murder. My vote would be no - lock 'em up for a long time.

With no medical experiments.

691 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:38:38pm

re: #674 zombie

Bob in B, PLEASE read comment #628 if you continue to be mystified. Apparently you just keep tracking it around the house. Your comments on that topic only seem to last a few minutes at most. Perhaps it would be wise to cease referring to it.

I don't think Charles is blaming you for bringing up the issue, just that you won't let it die.

Okay, this is weird, but see my #666.re: #685 Annelid

Bob -

I'm sick because I have a differing opinion?
I'm sorry, I didn't get the memo for all of us to think alike.

Can you NOT read what everyone else is telling you? Or don't you care?

692 ggt  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:38:39pm

re: #686 Opilio

I thought that would be a lively topic here this evening, maybe even worthy of its own thread, but it was not to be.

The first few comments on the page I linked are pretty interesting --seeing that it was from the LATimes.

693 Intrepid  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:38:53pm

re: #681 Annelid

Intrepid -

Sorry about your Mom.
As for the internet as a escape...yikes.
It's like Mos Eisley but the binary version.
Stick to reading a good book.

How about you sticking to trying to discover the difference between your ass and a hole in the ground?!

You have nothing, absolutely nothing, to tell me.

I am fine. You, however, seem to be lacking in several social graces.

694 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:38:58pm
695 Opilio  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:39:01pm

repeat after me, people.

GAZE............

It's the only way to make it stop.

696 Annelid[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:40:02pm
697 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:40:03pm

Okay, something is not right. Anyone else agree?

698 zombie  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:40:17pm

re: #691 Bob in Breckenridge

There ain't no comment #666. That one disappeared so fast I didn't even see it.

699 Annelid[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:40:41pm
700 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:40:47pm

re: #667 inquisitive

I was going to leave but my blood is boiling and I am so mad I don't think I will be able to sleep. I was patiently waiting to see if Annelid was going to get banned for the post--I guess not--they were just deleted.

It's probably a monitor deleting them.

/if so and they're that bad, they're subject to Charles' review and I suspect Stinky's the only one with the stick

701 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:41:04pm

Nighty-night!

702 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:41:21pm
703 Bob in Breckenridge  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:41:25pm

re: #698 zombie

Something isn't right zombie....

704 BlueCanuck  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:41:27pm

re: #695 Opilio

Okay, colour me dumb. What does GAZE stand for again.

/too many acronyms, still trying to catch up.

705 inquisitive  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:41:32pm

re: #697 Bob in Breckenridge

Okay, something is not right. Anyone else agree?

you have got that right!

706 ggt  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:41:33pm

night mandy!

707 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:41:35pm

Can't we just talk about something less controversial, like Obama?

:)

708 Intrepid  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:42:01pm

re: #697 Bob in Breckenridge

Okay, something is not right. Anyone else agree?

I'm with ya, Bob.

709 zombie  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:42:10pm

re: #697 Bob in Breckenridge

Okay, something is not right. Anyone else agree?

Yes, A topic needs to be no longer referred to even to express our outrage over it, or to condemn it.

710 Annelid[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:42:10pm
711 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:42:16pm
712 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:42:44pm
713 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:43:06pm

re: #704 BlueCanuck

Okay, colour me dumb. What does GAZE stand for again.

/too many acronyms, still trying to catch up.

Ignore.

714 inquisitive  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:43:29pm

re: #700 Killian Bundy

It's probably a monitor deleting them.

/if so and they're that bad, they're subject to Charles' review and I suspect Stinky's the only one with the stick

Sorry --- forgot about the monitors, deleting and Charles review. Hope Stinky comes around soon with that big stick.

715 Annelid[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:43:56pm
716 Salem  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:44:03pm

I repeat: Don't Even Trip.

Clearly, it's asking too much for some people to mellow. Don't take yourself too seriously.

717 Opilio  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:44:34pm

re: #704 BlueCanuck

Okay, colour me dumb. What does GAZE stand for again.

/too many acronyms, still trying to catch up.

Link to the LGF Dictionary entry for GAZE

718 Bob in Breckenridge[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:44:35pm
719 realwest  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:44:38pm

re: #676 Alberta Oil Peon Read the whole article in the paper. His lawyer said he had a long history of mental illness, history of delusions, hearing things and the like and his defense expert diagnosed bipolar disorder with psychotic tendencies. IMO, that is something going towards legally insane and should have been handled pre-trial. Click my avatar, go to my comments for the last 7 days and you'll see my comments on this thread arguing that the issue of his legal sanity should NEVER have been left up to a jury. He couldn't help his defense if he was having delusions, hearing things and the like.

720 republic  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:44:44pm

re: #686 Opilio

I thought that would be a lively topic here this evening, maybe even worthy of its own thread, but it was not to be.

The sad thing about it, is that the media will not give it any serious fcetime, regardless of how involved Obama may have been with him.

Truly sad.

721 Neo Con since 9-11  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:44:50pm

BiB-
I like you. You seem smart. Whatever you keep addressing stop it before the stick comes down on you

722 Intrepid  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:46:14pm

re: #696 Annelid

Ploome -

Guten tag!

Intrepid -

Yes, I'm coarse and brash.
Deal with it.

Coarse and brash - hummm. That means you have no respect for the feelings or thoughts of those around you.

Therefore you are worthy of

GAZE

723 zombie  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:46:15pm

re: #714 inquisitive

Sorry --- forgot about the monitors, deleting and Charles review. Hope Stinky comes around soon with that big stick.

I wouldn't be surprised if Charles is asleep in his pajamas already. We probably won't see a banning untill the morrow. (Unless he's watching our every move and just waiting to see how far people will go.)

724 Annelid[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:46:52pm
725 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:47:54pm

re: #685 Annelid

Bob -

I'm sick because I have a differing opinion?
I'm sorry, I didn't get the memo for all of us to think alike.

You have it wrong. It's not that you have a differing opinion, it's that the only valid position belongs to Bob and a certain cadre of others. Therefore that makes you sick.

Understand now?

And yes, Bob, I'm talking about you too.

726 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:47:57pm

Recent Extinctions: Living on Borrowed Time

/a moment of silence for the potentially recently deceased, whatever the [expletive deleted] they might have been talking about

727 zombie  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:48:20pm

Bob, stop referring to the topic, for your own sake. Please.

728 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:48:31pm

re: #721 Neo Con since 9-11

BiB-
I like you. You seem smart. Whatever you keep addressing stop it before the stick comes down on you

I think Bob will be allright..clearly there is a right and a wrong here and I trust Charles will get it right..perhaps the monitor is being a bit overzealous at ANY mention of the topic which,though foolish,may be understandable..

729 inquisitive  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:49:19pm

re: #718 Bob in Breckenridge
B in B I think they are trying to tell you to stop using the words that were used in the post, you are using the same exact words and keep refering to the deleted post.

730 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:49:37pm
731 Annelid[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:50:06pm
732 LeePro  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:50:19pm

re: #540 realwest

Hi {Lee} how are you doing?
And, um, where did you get the "iirc it was about half and half"? Did the prosecutors poll or question the jurors?

Can't remember where I read that... %-/

You know I woulda posted link if I knew!

Sorry...

733 Render  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:50:37pm

Iran, China, Pakistan, and the Sudan are the only nations that execute children for criminal acts.

The suggestion that we should join them in this practice is as abhorrent as the practice itself.

If you find yourself agreeing with the mullahs of Iran, this might not be the place for you.

OTHER
SAWS,
R

734 Racer X  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:50:44pm

re: #716 Salem

Not trippin.

Chillin

735 Alberta Oil Peon  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:50:59pm

re: #316 Cognito

You can't deter the mentally incapable with logic, man.

That's what makes them mentally incapable.

This conversation has been a real eye-opener, I've got to tell you.

The problem we have is that the definition of "mentally incapable" has been twisted and distorted by self-serving lawyers and moral relativists until it has become akin to trying to pick up mercury with a fork.

I believe we should drop the notion of "not guilty by reason of insanity/diminished capacity", and replace it with "guilty with a recommendation for clemency by reason of insanity/diminished capacity."

We should not be sending morons to the gallows; neither should we let evil murderers escape the gallows by feigning insanity.

736 Annelid[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:51:08pm
737 ggt  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:51:23pm

I think that last thread about Obamamessiah comments --parting the watersa and all was pretty creepy. Hopefully more people will get creeped out with every word he says for the next 5 months. He is going to be under the microscope.

738 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:51:39pm

re: #723 zombie

I wouldn't be surprised if Charles is asleep in his pajamas already. We probably won't see a banning untill the morrow. (Unless he's watching our every move and just waiting to see how far people will go.)

Charles has an LGF chip implanted in his head. He knows what we're doing at all times.

Even when we're not online.

739 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:51:45pm

re: #719 realwest

Read the whole article in the paper. His lawyer said he had a long history of mental illness, history of delusions, hearing things and the like and his defense expert diagnosed bipolar disorder with psychotic tendencies. IMO, that is something going towards legally insane and should have been handled pre-trial. Click my avatar, go to my comments for the last 7 days and you'll see my comments on this thread arguing that the issue of his legal sanity should NEVER have been left up to a jury. He couldn't help his defense if he was having delusions, hearing things and the like.

Daniel Pipes' article referred to earlier in this thread gives intimate details of the actions of this fucked up jihadi. Believe me, no matter what his defense said, there's no way that insanity could possibly be mitigator for this crime.

I love how during the trial all kinds of people show up for the defense who have been treating the accused for various periods of time. A guy in intensive care wouldn't have gotten that much attention. I assume CAIR was instrumental in assisting in his defense.

740 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:52:20pm
741 Opilio  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:52:23pm

re: #737 ggt

I think that last thread about Obamamessiah comments --parting the watersa and all was pretty creepy. Hopefully more people will get creeped out with every word he says for the next 5 months. He is going to be under the microscope.

From your lips to God's ear...

742 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:52:46pm

re: #733 Render

Iran, China, Pakistan, and the Sudan are the only nations that execute children for criminal acts.

The suggestion that we should join them in this practice is as abhorrent as the practice itself.

China harvests their organs too.

/Beijing 2008, bring your own oxygen

743 Salem  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:53:00pm

re: #734 Racer X

Not trippin.

Chillin

Oops! That one's road-kill (hung up by traffic).

744 BlueCanuck  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:53:31pm

re: #742 Killian Bundy

China harvests their organs too.

/Beijing 2008, bring your own oxygen

Not to mention filter masks for all the smog and pollution.

745 Intrepid  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:53:53pm

Sometimes the cops need a little help!

746 Student of Objectivism  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:53:58pm

re: #738 DesertSage

Charles has an LGF chip implanted in his head. He knows what we're doing at all times.

Even when we're not online.

Then he knows about all of my illegitimate children....

747 american jewess in jerusalem  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:54:10pm

re: #385 JeremyR

Well, I'll go on record stating I am in favor of executing anyone who commits murder regardless of whether they were sane, drunk, drugged or as nutty as they get.


I agree. I don't care if Cognito thinks I'm medieval. I'm tired of living in fear and I want violent criminals to be eliminated. This insanity defense has been, and continues to be, abused by our legal system, from egotistical lawyers to idiot jurors.

When I worked in a hospital, we had a fair number of "criminally insane" folks brought in from the local nuthouse for treatment. They were terrifying. If I believed in demons, I'd say they were Satan possessed, for sure. They were handcuffed to their beds, but they would still try to hurt the caregivers and were always vigilantly awaiting an opportunity to strike, 24/7. There is no cure for them. Being insane does not make one evil; unfortunately, evil and insanity sometimes co-exist.

Not guilty by reason of insanity should be reserved for families of victims of crime who lash out and kill the perpetrator in a fit of rage and anguish. I'd be willing to make an exception for that, given how rampant crime is in our society and how many families have been destroyed because of it.

748 Opilio  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:54:51pm

Wow, over 6000 comments today and 7000 yesterday. I imagine we'll be seeing some 10,000+ comment days before this election season ends. If it ends.

749 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:55:12pm

re: #690 Racer X

Hi RW - I think most agree with this post. The question was should a child be put to death for murder. My vote would be no - lock 'em up for a long time.

With no medical experiments.

I'm not much in favor of life behind bars. The way our prison system is, there is no reason for them to get their life and mind on track. Some years ago there was an article about a guy in the NY prison system who murdered repeatedly, was jailed and paroled. he got his kicks killing, and just as soon as he was free, he killed. Fact was he killed in jail several times. In the interview he was asked what he would do if the state reinstated the DP. He replied he would only maim.
If some one is so heinous, so depraived that tehre is no way they can ever be let loose on society, we are better off with them dead then caged.
I know it seems very harsh to argue that kids be executed, but drawing the line at 18 is no solution. a kid kills at seventeen years eleven months he gets a lighter sentence? how is there justice in that? There is an age at which children begin to reason, and at that age is where the punishment shift should take place. Gangs capitolize on the age factor all too often. They get fifteen year olds to kill knowing they will only get a slap on the hand when hte fifteen YO understands full well what he is doing.
The question for me is the age of reason, when does the child begin to understand what he has done? Some people are so retarded they could kill and not undestand the person is dead. I know of one instance in Minnesota, Dennis Pitenger killed his mother. Dennis is sixty plus, but does not comprehend that he killed his mom. Not insane, retarded. He suffered a severe head injury as a small child.
Dennis is incapable of living on his own, never has been. by my definition he is an example of some one who should not be executed. He does not understand what he did.
A husband come home roaring drunk, or stoned and is angry that his supper, now five hours past, is cold. He beats his wife in a rage. He did not fully understand what he was doing because of the booze or drugs. He should die.

750 ggt  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:55:17pm

i think a lot of the islamawhackos are brainwashed, or suffer from Stockholm symdrome. Add to that illiterate and inbred.

How does this play out in the legal system? Are there precedents. It seems the moonbats think all of this should play-out under the laws of civil court and not military court.

751 pat  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:55:19pm

So many deletions. What have i missed?

752 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:55:40pm

re: #735 Alberta Oil Peon

The problem we have is that the definition of "mentally incapable" has been twisted and distorted by self-serving lawyers

Hey, leave us out of it.

/I'm unaware that that's a legal term of art

753 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:55:50pm
754 zombie  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:56:43pm

re: #751 pat

So many deletions. What have i missed?

If I told you, I'd get deleted.

755 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:57:17pm
756 ggt  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:57:27pm

re: #754 zombie

LOL

757 stevieray  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:57:36pm

re: #727 zombie

Bob, stop referring to the topic, for your own sake. Please.

If a topic is off limits, then it should be openly declared off-limits. Guessing games are passive-aggressive and strictly low rent. I can't see Charles playing a silly game like that.

I think we have a monitor lizard with a personal vendetta... a soon-to-be ex-monitor lizard perhaps.

758 pat  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:57:57pm

China Olympics=A Gasping Run To The Non-existent Toilet. Bring Imodium for the final sprint. The Runs Off.

759 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:58:23pm
760 pat  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:58:54pm

re: #759 ploome hineni

K

761 Racer X  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:59:09pm

re: #749 JeremyR

Those under 18 can be tried as adults, with the same punishment as adults (including DP).

762 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:59:42pm

re: #757 stevieray

If a topic is off limits, then it should be openly declared off-limits. Guessing games are passive-aggressive and strictly low rent. I can't see Charles playing a silly game like that.

I think we have a monitor lizard with a personal vendetta... a soon-to-be ex-monitor lizard perhaps.

I don't think it's personal..I think mebbe afraid that Charles will think they weren't thorough enough..fear,then,is perhaps the problem..

763 ggt  Wed, Jun 4, 2008 11:59:48pm

Hey rw, you still out there?

How you doin'?

764 zombie  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:00:04am

re: #761 Racer X

Those under 18 can be tried as adults, with the same punishment as adults (including DP).

It varies state by state. Each state has their own level at which kids can be tried as adults.

765 ploome hineni[deleted]  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:00:12am
766 JeremyR  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:01:05am

re: #737 ggt

I think that last thread about Obamamessiah comments --parting the watersa and all was pretty creepy. Hopefully more people will get creeped out with every word he says for the next 5 months. He is going to be under the microscope.

Time to read up on the antichrist. This may be it.

767 LeePro  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:01:10am

re: #598 victor_yugo

I still have most of a bottle. If you want some, here ya go.

And some for Stinky B., too.

It's been a helluva night for me.

Nooooooooooooooooo!

Like I said — 19 years and counting! Can't go back there!

Pass that on to someone who can handle it!

;D

768 pat  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:01:40am

It is the overwrought cop in the UK that prevents Bible distributors from going into Muslim neighborhoods.

769 joecitizen  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:01:52am

re: #765 ploome hineni

:D

we are sending all wackos who murder to Jermey's house

he wants them taken care of forever, and I am not paying for somecriminally insane POS upkeep, if another LLLasshole decides


actually,I think jeremy would kill 'em all..children and the mentally retarded included..

770 zombie  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:02:26am

Here's the link:

Definition of a minor

In the United States as of 1995, minor is legally defined as a person under eighteen. However, not all minors are considered "juveniles" in terms of criminal responsibility. As is frequently the case in the United States, the laws vary widely by state.
In eleven states, including Georgia, Illinois, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Michigan, Missouri, South Carolina, and Texas, a "juvenile" is legally defined as a person under seventeen. In three states, Connecticut, New York, and North Carolina, "juvenile" refers to a person under sixteen.[1] In other states a juvenile is legally defined as a person under eighteen.
Under this distinction, those considered juveniles are usually tried in juvenile court, and they may be afforded other special protections. For example, in some states a parent or guardian must be present during police questioning, or their names may be kept confidential when they are accused of a crime. For many crimes (especially more violent crimes), the age at which a minor may be tried as an adult is variable below the age of 18 or (less often) below 16 [Gaines, Larry K and Roger Leroy Miller. "Criminal Justice in Action" 4th ed., Thompson Wadsworth Publishing, 2007. Pg 495). For example, in Kentucky, the lowest age a juvenile may be tried as an adult, no matter how heinous the crime, is 14.
In most states, juveniles cannot be housed with adult inmates, even if the child is charged as an adult. This is also discouraged by the federal government, which proffers funding only if children and adults are housed in separate facilities. This leads to a lot of subsidiary questions such as whether a juvenile now past their eighteenth birthday can be sentenced to adult jail for a conviction based on behavior that happened before that birthday. As with the adult system, the juvenile justice system has become more and more punitive over time,[citation needed] despite a juvenile's lack of right to a jury in juvenile court, often lower brain development (because of their youth), and evidence that incarceration and even probation lead to a higher incidence of reoffending for juveniles than non-punitive consequences.[citation needed]
The death penalty in the U.S. for those that committed a crime while under the age of 18 was discontinued by the U.S. Supreme Court Case Roper v. Simmons in 2005. The court's 5-4 decision was written by Justice Kennedy and joined by Justices Ginsburg, Stevens, Breyer, and Souter, and cited international law, as well as child developmental science and many other factors in reaching its conclusion.

771 JeremyR  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:02:55am

re: #747 american jewess in jerusalem

Thank you.

772 pat  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:03:01am

This asshole should be simply deported to Somalia. Paradise for Muslims. Without the virgins. All raped.

773 ploome hineni[deleted]  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:03:27am
774 LeePro  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:04:02am

re: #614 Intrepid

So glad. I'm still feasting.

And I'm southern, so this could go on for a while!

Num num num...

ROFLMAO!

775 JeremyR  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:04:07am

re: #761 Racer X

Those under 18 can be tried as adults, with the same punishment as adults (including DP).

The supreme injustices of the court struck down the DP for those under 18, That is why Malvo got life and Muhammed got death.

776 stevieray  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:04:32am

re: #762 joecitizen

I don't think it's personal..I think mebbe afraid that Charles will think they weren't thorough enough..fear,then,is perhaps the problem..

Perhaps... perhaps. Although it is odd to delete comments that are critical of an off-limits subject.

777 joecitizen  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:04:41am

re: #766 JeremyR

Time to read up on the antichrist. This may be it.

Foolish jeremy,EVERYBODY knows that Nero was the antichrist..

778 Bob in Breckenridge  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:04:47am

re: #725 really grumpy big dog Johnson

Read post #731. You think this has anything to do with me? Something is not right.

779 ploome hineni[deleted]  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:05:23am
780 Intrepid  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:05:31am

Here's a fun laugh - God bless Mumbley!

781 joecitizen  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:06:03am

re: #773 ploome hineni

you are thinking tonight?

oy


that's lame even for you,ploome...

782 Killian Bundy  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:07:19am

re: #781 joecitizen

that's lame even for you,ploome...

/now you've done it

783 joecitizen  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:07:36am

re: #782 Killian Bundy

/now you've done it


heh

784 JeremyR  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:08:05am

re: #765 ploome hineni

:D

we are sending all wackos who murder to Jermey's house

he wants them taken care of forever, and I am not paying for somecriminally insane POS upkeep, if another LLLasshole decides

Send ammo then as well. I only have a few hundred rounds on hand, and most of those are .22.
/sarc.

785 pat  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:08:08am

re: #779 ploome hineni

As you know, Malvo will be on the new Mumia. Democratic Party Speaker .

786 ploome hineni[deleted]  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:08:39am
787 zombie  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:09:11am

re: #776 stevieray

Perhaps... perhaps. Although it is odd to delete comments that are critical of an off-limits subject.

That's been the rule around here for years.

Any comment that quotes a deleted comment will itself inevitably get deleted too. And in certain circumstances (such as this one, apparently), any comment which provides enough evidence that the original comment could be reconstructed will also get deleted, if the topic is offensive enough.

DO NOT QUOTE A COMMENT THAT WAS DELETED -- even to condemn it or express your opposition to it.

Charles has said that plenty of times.

LGF-bashers scan EVERY THREAD looking for something to blame Charles for. You can't blame him for this policy.

788 ploome hineni[deleted]  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:09:38am
789 LeePro  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:09:42am

re: #664 annelid

Mandy -

why?
I'm fine.

F.I.N.E.

790 ploome hineni[deleted]  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:10:32am
791 Render  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:10:54am

re: #787 zombie

I think the crux of the problem here is that the original offensive comments are still undeleted.

HOUSTON
WE HAVE
A PROBLEM
HERE,
R

792 JeremyR  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:11:09am

re: #779 ploome hineni

great

you can get to keep Malvo for a long long time

develop a real relationship

The only relationship I want with that type is Pallbearer, and use a 55 gallon garbage can for the pall.

793 zombie  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:11:25am

re: #791 Render

I think the crux of the problem here is that the original offensive comments are still undeleted.

Refresh. They're all gone, long ago.

794 Neo Con since 9-11  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:13:26am

re: #793 zombie

Refresh. They're all gone, long ago.

That almost sounds like a monitor lizard patting themselves on the back for doing a good job.

795 LeePro  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:13:52am

re: #675 Bob in Breckenridge

F.I.N.E.

796 zombie  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:14:29am

re: #794 Neo Con since 9-11

Two of the deleted comments were by me!

I learned my lesson quick.

797 stevieray  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:15:41am

re: #787 zombie

I am well aware of the "don't quote" rule, and I understand and agree when those who quote get deleted as well. But simple saying "I think xxx is wrong", and getting deleted for that is something else entirely.

798 American Soldier  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:15:48am

re: #784 JeremyR

Careful, there. I had a comment deleted the other day (second ever, IIRC), even with a tag. And all I was doing was advocating military self-defense.

799 Neo Con since 9-11  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:16:30am

re: #796 zombie

Two of the deleted comments were by me!

I learned my lesson quick.

I know those were false flag comments by you, I read it was so on Kos.

800 slokat  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:16:37am

I really enjoyed this debate tonight about [deleted], especially the comments from [redacted] & [redacted], and to a lesser extent the comment made by [redacted] that showed a different approach to [deleted].

Post # [removed] was one of the most insightful comments about [deleted] and should make [redacted] be on the top of the list as everyone's favorite lizard.

801 inquisitive  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:16:41am

">#749 JeremyR
a kid kills at seventeen years eleven months he gets a lighter sentence? re: #749 JeremyR
I know they changed the law (I think it was in Florida) several years ago to a lower age, just for that reason. If I remember Right there were two boys that killed a young girl. One of the boys older and the other was 17. The 17 year old took the blame for the murder. The older one did not get any punishment and the other only got few years in juvie.

802 joecitizen  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:17:27am

just for you sweet ploome...recent and sweet I should say..

803 Render  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:17:32am

re: #793 zombie

AH-HA!

So they are...(thanks Z)

This might explain a bit of confusion on some peoples parts.

But not mine. My parts know exactly what they are doing at all times.

PARTS
IS
PARTS,
R

804 Killian Bundy  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:18:03am

re: #796 zombie

Two of the deleted comments were by me!

That's an interesting sentence.

/I don't remember any of your comments being deleted on this thread, or were you just confessing to being a monitor, not that there's anything wrong with that?

805 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:18:07am

re: #791 Render

I think the crux of the problem here is that the original offensive comments are still undeleted.

HOUSTON
WE HAVE
A PROBLEM
HERE,
R

Gosh, since the original offensive comments are still here, you might as well give us the comment numbers. I want to see those "imfamous" seed comments that caused this thread to shrink so much.

806 Roger  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:18:16am

Barry's new 'hate speech' laws will be better enforced and prosecuted with unanimous juries pronouncing guilty verdicts than US civilization-long murder and mass murder laws.

807 zombie  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:19:37am

re: #797 stevieray

I am well aware of the "don't quote" rule, and I understand and agree when those who quote get deleted as well. But simple saying "I think xxx is wrong", and getting deleted for that is something else entirely.

Well, if "xxx" is a paraphrase of the original deleted comment, or an accurate description of it, but sufficient to allow an LGF-basher to reconstruct what is being referred to, then it seems that it qualifies for deletion too.

I suppose it only happens in extreme circumstances, which I guess this is.

808 American Soldier  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:19:52am

re: #800 slokat

I really enjoyed this debate tonight about [deleted], especially the comments from [redacted] & [redacted], and to a lesser extent the comment made by [redacted] that showed a different approach to [deleted].

Post # [removed] was one of the most insightful comments about [deleted] and should make [redacted] be on the top of the list as everyone's favorite lizard.

That was the most [deleted] comment I've ever [removed] and I believe all [redacted] would be proud to [deleted]. Thanks.

809 pat  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:20:16am

Monitor lizards are the most prehistoric of all lizards. They primarily inhabit the South East Pacific. The most famous of the monitors is the Komodo Dragon, a brutish stupid beast that would lose to a dinosaur at drinking water. It is fascinating to bilogist because it's secondary weapon is highly infectious bacteria that it transmits through biting. The Monitor lizard is virtually immune to the two most infectious bacteria on earth.

Over

/hint to budding scientists. if you want a staph vaccine check out this baby's saliva

810 LeePro  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:20:23am

re: #704 BlueCanuck

Okay, colour me dumb. What does GAZE stand for again.

/too many acronyms, still trying to catch up.

GAZE

811 ggt  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:21:09am

re: #806 Roger

Ah, you forget, there will be no hate when Barry is King. We will all magically have everything we need, live forever and join hands daily and sing kumba-yaya.

812 pat  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:21:15am

Aloha

813 victor_yugo  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:21:41am

re: #767 LeePro

Nooooooooooooooooo!

Like I said — 19 years and counting! Can't go back there!

Okay, sorry, I didn't get the allusion.

Like I said, helluva night.

re: #808 American Soldier

That was the most [deleted] comment I've ever [removed] and I believe all [redacted] would be proud to [deleted]. Thanks.

[deleted]'n A!

814 Render  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:22:55am

re: #805 really grumpy big dog Johnson

507 is still there.

CHECKS
WATCH,
R

815 zombie  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:23:34am

re: #799 Neo Con since 9-11

I know those were false flag comments by you, I read it was so on Kos.

Wouldn't it be really freaky if my actual identity was -- Markos Moulitsas?!? I mean, he lives in the Bay Area too, right?

What if "zombie" is my main, true honest identity, and "Markos" is my troll identity, and I've been undermining the Democratic Party from within for 5 years? The ultimate saboteur, the ultimate insider-moby?

Ooops, why did I just reveal that? Stinky -- I beg for deletion!

816 yochanan  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:25:40am

recently i read the book "Masada complex" and with a Obama presidency i fear the book might not be fictional anymore.

Jewish blood has always been cheaper, this verdict does not surprise me at all. sad to say.

817 American Soldier  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:26:24am

re: #815 zombie

Wouldn't it be really freaky if my actual identity was -- Markos Moulitsas?!? I mean, he lives in the Bay Area too, right?

What if "zombie" is my main, true honest identity, and "Markos" is my troll identity, and I've been undermining the Democratic Party from within for 5 years? The ultimate saboteur, the ultimate insider-moby?

Ooops, why did I just reveal that? Stinky -- I beg for deletion!

Damn. That is so twisted, I'm gonna have ta break out the rum.

818 JeremyR  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:27:35am

re: #801 inquisitive

">#749 JeremyR
a kid kills at seventeen years eleven months he gets a lighter sentence?
I know they changed the law (I think it was in Florida) several years ago to a lower age, just for that reason. If I remember Right there were two boys that killed a young girl. One of the boys older and the other was 17. The 17 year old took the blame for the murder. The older one did not get any punishment and the other only got few years in juvie.

I was thinking of Lee Boyd Malvo who escaped justice because he was seventeen.

819 zombie  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:27:48am

re: #804 Killian Bundy

That's an interesting sentence.

/I don't remember any of your comments being deleted on this thread, or were you just confessing to being a monitor, not that there's anything wrong with that?

One disappeared mighty quick, in less than a minute it seemed. And I just went back over the thread and another is gone too, I guess by the after-party cleanup crew.

Check now -- there are an awful lot of deletions up there. Do you remember who made which deleted comment? I certainly don't, and I've read the whole thread too.

820 BignJames  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:28:05am

re: #815 zombie

Wouldn't it be really freaky if my actual identity was -- Markos Moulitsas?!? I mean, he lives in the Bay Area too, right?

What if "zombie" is my main, true honest identity, and "Markos" is my troll identity, and I've been undermining the Democratic Party from within for 5 years? The ultimate saboteur, the ultimate insider-moby?

Ooops, why did I just reveal that? Stinky -- I beg for deletion!

Please try harder.

821 Cognito  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:28:06am

I see one of my posts was deleted. No quotation involved.

Memory hole, indeed.

822 Killian Bundy  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:28:32am

re: #814 Render

507 is still there.

It's an opinion. Where do they learn the behavior and attitudes?

/from the stabbing or frying constituencies

823 Roger  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:29:03am

re: #816 yochanan

recently i read the book "Masada complex" and with a Obama presidency i fear the book might not be fictional anymore.

Jewish blood has always been cheaper, this verdict does not surprise me at all. sad to say.

This mistrial is sending Muslims the all clear sign to shed more Jewish blood with impunity.

824 Spiritualized  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:29:15am

Messiah Barry has annoyed the Fakestinians apparently.

825 victor_yugo  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:29:29am

re: #817 American Soldier

Damn. That is so twisted, I'm gonna have ta break out the rum.

Here ya go, A.S.

/pours

826 joecitizen  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:29:57am

re: #821 Cognito

I see one of my posts was deleted. No quotation involved.

Memory hole, indeed.

do you remember what it was about?heh..

827 American Soldier  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:30:02am

re: #816 yochanan

recently i read the book "Masada complex" and with a Obama presidency i fear the book might not be fictional anymore.

Jewish blood has always been cheaper, this verdict does not surprise me at all. sad to say.

Dude. For thousands of years. Hence the soldiering. Vital skill set for self and community. Even the local Grand Drag-ass or whatever the KKK call him stays out of my path.

828 inquisitive  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:30:04am

Well the cat is patting me on the shoulder which is the sign she thinks it is time for bed and my son just came through and wanted to know why I was still up (2:25--like he is the only one that can stay up all night)--so I guess I can take a hint and say it is time for me to go and lay my head on the pillow for awhile. Good night to all and take good care of yourselves. Hope tomorrow/today is a great day for all.

829 American Soldier  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:31:18am

re: #825 victor_yugo

Here ya go, A.S.

/pours

/ a toast- to absent comrades

830 Roger  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:32:17am

re: #821 Cognito

I see one of my posts was deleted. No quotation involved.

Memory hole, indeed.

I suspect monitor lizards have limited capability to change any mistake they might make. Just wait for Charles to clear it up with his full system capabilities.

831 inquisitive  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:32:34am

re: #818 JeremyR

I was thinking of Lee Boyd Malvo who escaped justice because he was seventeen.


Where was that at? I do a lot of reading, especially true crime, but that is not ringing a bell, but it could be due to the time of night/day it is for me. Guess I will go and check it out on wiki.

832 Killian Bundy  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:32:45am

re: #819 zombie

Check now -- there are an awful lot of deletions up there. Do you remember who made which deleted comment? I certainly don't, and I've read the whole thread too.

Well, I usually click 'em as I read the thread, see who was bad. Might have missed yours.

/approximate comment #'s?

833 joecitizen  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:33:22am

re: #831 inquisitive

Where was that at? I do a lot of reading, especially true crime, but that is not ringing a bell, but it could be due to the time of night/day it is for me. Guess I will go and check it out on wiki.


DC sniper case..

834 zombie  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:34:18am

re: #814 Render

507 is still there.

CHECKS
WATCH,
R

Hmmmm, interesting.

You're right, it's still there.

Why hasn't it been deleted?

I guess that knocks Killian's and Neo Con's theory out of the water! 'Cause if I could I'd delete that sucka.

835 Killian Bundy  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:34:29am

re: #824 Spiritualized

Messiah Barry has annoyed the Fakestinians apparently.

/after all that work they put in on his behalf

836 LeePro  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:34:58am

re: #819 zombie

One disappeared mighty quick, in less than a minute it seemed. And I just went back over the thread and another is gone too, I guess by the after-party cleanup crew.

Check now -- there are an awful lot of deletions up there. Do you remember who made which deleted comment? I certainly don't, and I've read the whole thread too.

The little football remains, even after deletion. You can still click it to see who it was!

Deviously true!

837 BlueCanuck  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:35:05am

re: #819 zombie

First three comments were 513, 521, and 522. The original poster and starter of the delete storm was annelid. A real nasty poser as far as I am concerned.

838 inquisitive  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:35:30am

re: #833 joecitizen

DC sniper case..


Ah yes, how soon I forgot, shame one me--but thank you for saving me the time of looking it up.

839 Neo Con since 9-11  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:35:50am

re: #815 zombie

Wouldn't it be really freaky if my actual identity was -- Markos Moulitsas?!? I mean, he lives in the Bay Area too, right?

What if "zombie" is my main, true honest identity, and "Markos" is my troll identity, and I've been undermining the Democratic Party from within for 5 years? The ultimate saboteur, the ultimate insider-moby?

Ooops, why did I just reveal that? Stinky -- I beg for deletion!

Your shape changing powers are truly awesome. Last night you were Sheehan. Tonight, you are Moulitas.
Unfortunately, the pictures you take (Which I appreciate) seem to be taken from at least 6'2" above the ground. So either you can shape change into Mary Poppins and levitate off the ground or you actually are 5" taller than Moulitas or Sheehan.

840 joecitizen  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:36:23am

re: #838 inquisitive

Ah yes, how soon I forgot, shame one me--but thank you for saving me the time of looking it up.


np.

841 victor_yugo  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:37:27am

re: #829 American Soldier

/ a toast- to absent comrades

*gulp*

842 Cognito  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:39:28am

Why is comment 507 still there?

843 Cognito  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:39:45am

You know what, forget it. I think it's more honest to leave it there.

844 zombie  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:40:25am

re: #832 Killian Bundy

/approximate comment #'s?

Sheesh, it's all a blur. I look back now over the thread and there are even more deletions now than just a short while ago, it seems. I couldn't begin to remember which numbers they were. I do remember what I said in one of them, though, and understand why it was deleted. The other was borderline.

845 yochanan  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:40:27am

re: #785 pat

As you know, Malvo will be on the new Mumia. Democratic Party Speaker .

FRY MUMIA!

846 ggt  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:42:30am

re: #828 inquisitive

You are wise to heed the command of your Cat Overlord. Mine is only concerned that his sleep is not disturbed.

847 inquisitive  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:42:32am

Her Cog this is for you if you are still here


Can juveniles be put to death?
The juvenile death penalty was abolished in 2005 by the U.S. Supreme Court decision Roper v. Simmons (125 S.Ct. 1183), which stated that capital punishment for crimes committed by minors (under age 18) violates the Eight Amendment prohibition of cruel and unusual punishment. The majority reasoned that juveniles lack maturity and may be less culpable than adults who commit crimes.

Brain science has evolved dramatically in the last few years, and scientists have determined that parts of the brain are still developing into the early to mid-twenties; thus, the brains of people who commit murder at a young age are too immature to justify execution. According to recent research, the adolescent brain is fundamentally different than an adult brain. It is not a matter of knowing right from wrong, but more a question of impulse control and judgment.

In three states (Connecticut, New York, and North Carolina), juveniles can be tried as an adult at age 16 and above. In nine states (Georgia, Illinois, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Michigan, New Hampshire, South Carolina, Texas, and Wisconsin), juveniles can be tried as an adult at age 17 and above. In the remaining 38 states, plus the District of Columbia, an adult is considered anyone age 18 and older. Even though a juvenile aged 16 or 17 may be tried as an adult in criminal court in some states, a juvenile cannot be put to death in any state due to the decision in Roper v. Simmons.

The International Justice Project provides an extensive background on the juvenile death penalty, including the constitutionality of the death penalty for juveniles. The Death Penalty Information Center provides a host of resources and statistics on juveniles and the death penalty, including the Roper v. Simmons case, and the American Bar Association provides information on the juvenile death penalty and amicus briefs.

Top

Can the mentally retarded and the mentally insane be put to death?
In Atkins v. Virginia (U.S. 304 2002), the U.S. Supreme Court held that executions of people with mental retardation violates the Eighth Amendment ban on cruel and unusual punishment. While this decision did not clearly define mental retardation, it recommended language endorsed by the American Association of Mental Retardation. Individual states have defined retardation for purposes of the death penalty.

The execution of the insane is a violation of the U.S. Constitution, according to Ford v. Wainwright (1986). This decision left the determination of sanity up to each state. There are few constitutional protections for those with other forms of mental illness.

Three important, recent U.S. Supreme Court cases involve mental illness and the death penalty. Sell v. United States (2002) examines the right of defendants incompetent to stand trial to refuse medication. Clark v. Arizona (2006) examines the scope of psychiatric defenses. Panetti v. Texas (2006) examines the definition of competency to be executed.

848 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:43:01am

re: #818 JeremyR

I was thinking of Lee Boyd Malvo who escaped justice because he was seventeen.

Cross-generational mass murderers are pretty rare, and usually the dominant party is the elder, but not always.

What's really creepy is interfamilial cross-generational serial killers, vanishingly rare. They are usually associated with someone with a really warped religious vision, passed across generation or (most rarely) generations within families.

Interfamilial mass murderers are somewhat more common, and frequently famous. There was a stern and socially isolated family in Kansas quite a long time ago that invited travelers into their home to rob them, using the technique of getting them to a spot at the dinner table where they would be killed by a sledge hammer wielded by someone who was hiding behind a drape. That family killed scores of people before they were finally caught.

849 inquisitive  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:43:17am

re: #847 inquisitive

Sorry PIMF her=here

850 ggt  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:43:48am

re: #843 Cognito

It would be nice if more people down dinged it.

851 Neo Con since 9-11  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:43:51am

re: #843 Cognito

You know what, forget it. I think it's more honest to leave it there.

I agree. A hall of shame would be more appropriate and more humiliating to the poster than a simple deletion.

852 Killian Bundy  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:44:05am

re: #842 Cognito

Why is comment 507 still there?

Well, we could speculate as to who was commenting earlier when the deletions were being made and who is no longer commenting when calls for deletions are still being made.

/but I digress

853 victor_yugo  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:44:16am

re: #842 Cognito

Why is comment 507 still there?

Isn't that the greatest epistemological questions of our age?

Oh, wait...

Let's see...

carrying this out to its logical conclusion...

I am comment #507!

/"I am not a number — I am a free man!"

854 BlueCanuck  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:45:10am

re: #850 ggt

I think they are, last I say it was at -6.

855 zombie  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:46:19am

re: #839 Neo Con since 9-11

Your shape changing powers are truly awesome. Last night you were Sheehan. Tonight, you are Moulitas.
Unfortunately, the pictures you take (Which I appreciate) seem to be taken from at least 6'2" above the ground. So either you can shape change into Mary Poppins and levitate off the ground or you actually are 5" taller than Moulitas or Sheehan.

Actually, I just wear a tall hat and have my hidden camera sewn into the top of it.

856 joecitizen  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:46:33am

re: #850 ggt

It would be nice if more people down dinged it.


I just reported it..I'm sure it already was but what the hell?

857 ggt  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:46:36am

Well, Lizards, the storms seem to have passed and I have a do need to try to sleep before sun-up.

Have a great day all!

858 inquisitive  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:46:51am

This time I really have to go---cat won't leave me alone, can't hardly type. good night!

859 LeePro  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:47:22am

'Nite, {Beloved Lizards} — you know who you are [and aren't]

860 Neo Con since 9-11  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:47:32am

re: #855 zombie

Stop talking pictures of the top of peoples heads. It's a give away

861 victor_yugo  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:48:27am

re: #854 BlueCanuck

I think they are, last I say it was at -6.

Heckuva comment to put right after mine immediately above!

862 uptight  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:49:25am

Would "not guilty by reason of insanity" mean he would walk free?

863 Roger  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:49:29am

re: #842 Cognito

Why is comment 507 still there?

It's late and monitor lizard is fixin' a stiff drink after pounding the delete comment button?

re: #851 Neo Con since 9-11

I agree. A hall of shame would be more appropriate and more humiliating to the poster than a simple deletion.

Or a level in between where the whole comment background goes dark gray to identify it as an example of the really bad and mobyish?

864 joecitizen  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:49:33am

re: #861 victor_yugo

Heckuva comment to put right after mine immediately above!


fame or infamy by proximity is still sumpin' innit?

865 Killian Bundy  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:50:03am

re: #844 zombie

Sheesh, it's all a blur. I look back now over the thread and there are even more deletions now than just a short while ago, it seems. I couldn't begin to remember which numbers they were. I do remember what I said in one of them, though, and understand why it was deleted. The other was borderline.

I don't think it was you, in this instance, and I think I know who it probably was. This one's been discussed, mostly through e-mail. Maybe Charles should reveal the monitors, he wasn't opposed to it before.

/IMO, probably not, keep us guessing

866 Alberta Oil Peon  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:50:59am

re: #626 LeePro

Another Zombie WOW!

The same reasoning applies equally to the stupid directive that all accused may only be referred to as "alleged" perpetrator, or the crime, the "alleged" murder (or whatever). EVEN WHEN THE CRIMINAL IS CAUGHT RED-HANDED!

Lee, that use of "alleged" is a direct consequence of the Constitutional guarantee of being presumed innocent until proven guilty. It cannot be otherwise.

Yes, I know that it can grate on one's common sense to hear a perp caught red-handed being described as an "alleged" criminal, but until that perp has had his day in court, he remains innocent. Suppose the perp in question is in fact profoundly retarded, with a mental age of two years? Suppose that same perp was your own child? Would you want him to be called a "criminal" in the press, simply because he was found in front of broken jewelry-store show window with a Rolex in his hand?

867 zombie  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:51:01am

re: #860 Neo Con since 9-11

Stop talking pictures of the top of peoples heads. It's a give away

No seriously, I often hold the camera up in the air over my head to get a better angle. A lot of my pictures are more likely taken from 6'6" - 7" 0" off the ground, depending on how far my arms are extended.

Look at pictures showing a group of photographers in a crowd trying to snap a celebrity or noteworthy scene. Everyone's trying to get "higher" and above everyone else.

868 joecitizen  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:52:00am

re: #865 Killian Bundy

I don't think it was you, in this instance, and I think I know who it probably was. This one's been discussed, mostly through e-mail. Maybe Charles should reveal the monitors, he wasn't opposed to it before.

/IMO, probably not, keep us guessing


of course, if YOU were the monitor this would be the perfect tack to take,wouldn't it? I'm just sayin'...

869 Killian Bundy  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:52:59am

re: #855 zombie

Actually, I just wear a tall hat and have my hidden camera sewn into the top of it.

Nowdays, men generally don't know how to sew.

/just sayin'

870 yochanan  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:53:27am

re: #472 zombie

One could fairly convincingly argue that anybody who commits a murder must be insane to do such a thing. And in fact there are plenty of criminal defense attorneys (most of the leftists) who do exactly that. They argue that their client is nuts in order to get him off -- regardless of his actual mental state.

The law was originally intended to prevent the exeuction of truly, deeply insane people who have no idea what they're even doing -- tertiary dementia. But it has been twisted and twisted to included every ridiculous shade of abnormality. Henry Lee Lucas's lawyer, if I remember correctly, treid to get him off by claiming he was driven insane by his mother, who as a prostitute had sex with strangers in the same room with the young Henry. Now, I'm sure that turned Henry into a very twisted individual, but -- insane? To see him speak and act, he appears perfectly normal. But deep in his mind he developed a hatred for women, and eventually had no moral code of any kind. Yet he certainly "knew what he was doing" when he murdered those 60 people. He just had a screwed up worldview.

I simply don't believe the law was designed to protect people like Henry Lee Lucas or Naveed Haq who are able to function normally in society and in their personal lives, but who have defective or non-existence moral codes.

Some lawyer bamboozled a jury, and some prosecutor bungled a slam-dunk case.

Naveed Haq most definitely committed this crime. And from his observed behavior (kidnapping the girl to get inside) it means he grasped and predicted other people's emotional reactions, which means he is not a psychopath, and hence not insane.

Were he to be convicted -- and I believe he deserved to be -- he deserves the death penalty in my view, because it is a "special circumstances" murder -- committed during the commission of a hate crime.

Thus, I see nothing wrong with those who are saying "Fry him!" They're basically saying what I just did here, but in shorthand.

THAT IS WHY THERE REALLY SHOULD BE A POSSIBLE VERDECT GUILTY & INSANE. It doesn't matter to me if they are locked in a mental hospital as long as they can't get out.

871 joecitizen  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:53:30am

re: #868 joecitizen

of course, if YOU were the monitor this would be the perfect tack to take,wouldn't it? I'm just sayin'...

or it could just be Mandy..heh

872 zombie  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:54:00am

Well, the delete-storm seems to have died down, in any case, whoever it was. Guess they went to sleep. It's getting late.

873 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:55:16am

re: #862 uptight

Would "not guilty by reason of insanity" mean he would walk free?

Only if it was ruled temporary insanity and no current evidence of insanity could be observed or deduced. These cases are pretty rare, and usually related to outside occurrences, such as accidental ingestion of drugs, temporary mental impairment from injury, and the like.

874 joecitizen  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:55:17am

re: #872 zombie

Well, the delete-storm seems to have died down, in any case, whoever it was. Guess they went to sleep. It's getting late.


SOMEONE'S GOTTA BE IN CHARGE!

875 zombie  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:55:27am

re: #869 Killian Bundy

Nowdays, men generally don't know how to sew.

/just sayin'

Damn, I keep giving myself away!

Killian "Sherlock" Bundy.

I learned a while back to stop mentioning how much I hate sports. Got to add sewing to the list.

876 Killian Bundy  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:55:39am

re: #868 joecitizen

of course, if YOU were the monitor this would be the perfect tack to take,wouldn't it? I'm just sayin'...

Do you really think Charles would ask me to be a monitor?

/maybe you should review my commenting history

877 joecitizen  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:57:04am

re: #876 Killian Bundy

Do you really think Charles would ask me to be a monitor?

/maybe you should review my commenting history

perfect cover,brother Bundy...

878 rawmuse  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:57:48am

Anyone who has ever served on a jury can understand how this happens. Sometimes you have to serve with people who could not find their own ass with a flashlight.

879 LeePro  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:58:48am

re: #866 Alberta Oil Peon

Lee, that use of "alleged" is a direct consequence of the Constitutional guarantee of being presumed innocent until proven guilty. It cannot be otherwise.

Yes, I know that it can grate on one's common sense to hear a perp caught red-handed being described as an "alleged" criminal, but until that perp has had his day in court, he remains innocent. Suppose the perp in question is in fact profoundly retarded, with a mental age of two years? Suppose that same perp was your own child? Would you want him to be called a "criminal" in the press, simply because he was found in front of broken jewelry-store show window with a Rolex in his hand?

Glad I didn't leave right away...

So, cops can watch some asshole pump 9 bullets into another human being and they still have to say "alleged" shooter?? Not in MY book!

Agree, can't "legally" call him a murderer (yet), but he IS the fuckin' shooter, damn it!

/SHEESH ! ! !

good-night! really!

880 slokat  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:59:16am

The don't check to see if the jurors are sane...

881 joecitizen  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:59:24am

re: #878 rawmuse

Anyone who has ever served on a jury can understand how this happens. Sometimes you have to serve with people who could not find their own ass with a flashlight.

let's see how rational you are after you read the rest of the thread..

882 victor_yugo  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:59:28am

re: #878 rawmuse

Anyone who has ever served on a jury can understand how this happens. Sometimes you have to serve with people who could not find their own ass with a flashlight.

Maybe it should be on a juror questionnaire:

"Can you find your own ass with a flashlight?"

Answer YES = rejected!

883 Render  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 12:59:52am

It may very well have been a mere opinion, but it is an opinion shared only with our enemies.

Disclaimer notwithstanding, it is not an opinion I'd want to be associated with if it were my blog and is not an opinion I'm happy about sharing commenting space with.

It is most assuredly an opinion that will find its way to a stalker blog.

David Duke and Louis Farrahkhan have opinions, and in the eyes of the law they are entitled to share those opinions, on their own blogs.

This is Charles house, and while I've been wrong before and no doubt will be again, I have little doubt it is not the kind of comment that Charles will be happy to see tomorrow morning.

LESS OPINION
MORE FACT,
R

884 Cognito  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 1:01:16am

re: #883 Render

Seconded.

885 zombie  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 1:01:18am

re: #878 rawmuse

Anyone who has ever served on a jury can understand how this happens. Sometimes you have to serve with people who could not find their own ass with a flashlight.

That is certainly true.

I was once on a jury where this happened. I won't bore everyone with the details of the case, but it OBVIOUSLY should have been decided one way. I assumed we'd vote once and it would be over in 15 minutes.

But two idiotic bullies incomprehensibly voted the other way, and then browbeat people during the deliberations, and (this being a civil case, not a criminal case) actually bullied enough jurors to vote their way. We returned a ridiculous decision. I was outraged and ashamed.

886 BlueCanuck  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 1:01:33am

re: #875 zombie

Damn, I keep giving myself away!

Killian "Sherlock" Bundy.

I learned a while back to stop mentioning how much I hate sports. Got to add sewing to the list.

Well zombie, that doesn't mean anything to me. I am a man, I once used a sewing machine. I can still use a needle and thread. I also can't stand sports either.

/yeah, I know I am an exception to the rule

887 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 1:01:52am

re: #870 yochanan

THAT IS WHY THERE REALLY SHOULD BE A POSSIBLE VERDECT GUILTY & INSANE. It doesn't matter to me if they are locked in a mental hospital as long as they can't get out.

There is such a verdict, and it depends upon the state. Invariably "guilty and/but insane" prohibits a death penalty, and usually causes some mitigation of the length of punishment. But in some cases, and I outlined one here earlier, even those quite young can be locked up for the rest of their natural lives.

888 Alberta Oil Peon  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 1:04:00am

re: #719 realwest

Read the whole article in the paper. His lawyer said he had a long history of mental illness, history of delusions, hearing things and the like and his defense expert diagnosed bipolar disorder with psychotic tendencies. IMO, that is something going towards legally insane and should have been handled pre-trial. Click my avatar, go to my comments for the last 7 days and you'll see my comments on this thread arguing that the issue of his legal sanity should NEVER have been left up to a jury. He couldn't help his defense if he was having delusions, hearing things and the like.

But if Haq's defense strategy is to cop a plea of insanity, while the prosecution argues that he was in fact in sufficient touch with reality to be considered sane, then it has to be decided by a jury, unless he elects trial by judge alone (one can do that here in Canada, not sure about Washington State).

My guess is that the juror who hung the trial was the one who insisted that Haq was in fact sane.

889 rawmuse  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 1:04:14am

re: #881 joecitizen

let's see how rational you are after you read the rest of the thread..

I take it there was some excitement. I just got in and my eyelids are getting heavy. I will have to check it out tomorrow after the juicy bits are deleted.

890 abolitionist  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 1:05:16am

re: #831 inquisitive

Where was that at? I do a lot of reading, especially true crime, but that is not ringing a bell, but it could be due to the time of night/day it is for me. Guess I will go and check it out on wiki.

Nation of Islam inspired DC snipers aimed at children and pregnant women: Planned to train children 'to finish their mission'
Excerpts:

ROCKVILLE, Md. -- Sniper John Allen Muhammad had grandiose plans to create a community of children in Canada who would be trained in weapons and explosives before being sent to terrorize cities and "shut things down," accomplice Lee Boyd Malvo testified Tuesday.
[snip]

The pair is also suspected of earlier shootings in Maryland, Alabama, Arizona, Georgia, Louisiana and Washington state.

I hope that's not too close to the newly uncovered forbidden topic.

891 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 1:06:24am

re: #885 zombie

That is certainly true.

I was once on a jury where this happened. I won't bore everyone with the details of the case, but it OBVIOUSLY should have been decided one way. I assumed we'd vote once and it would be over in 15 minutes.

But two idiotic bullies incomprehensibly voted the other way, and then browbeat people during the deliberations, and (this being a civil case, not a criminal case) actually bullied enough jurors to vote their way. We returned a ridiculous decision. I was outraged and ashamed.

Zombie, they sure wouldn't have wanted to try that tactic with me. At the very least I'd have taken it to the judge for juror intimidation.

At the worst, we'd have had a rumble, and it would not have been pretty.

Ironically, I'm nearing 60 and have never been called for jury duty in spite of being a registered voter for almost all of my adult years.

892 Killian Bundy  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 1:07:00am

re: #870 yochanan

THAT IS WHY THERE REALLY SHOULD BE A POSSIBLE VERDECT GUILTY & INSANE. It doesn't matter to me if they are locked in a mental hospital as long as they can't get out.

It's called a judge decides whether the defendant is insane before the trial. If so, he goes away to a mental institution forever or until he's certified sane enough to stand trial and then the criminal process starts again. That's the way a plea of total insanity works. We've discussed the standards upthread.

/variants of a temporary insanity defense go to the jury because the defendant has been judged, prior to the trial, to understand the proceedings and the participants and able to assist his attorneys in his defense, temporary insanity is a jury instruction (JIG), agreed upon by both sides and the judge before the trial, and read to the jury at the end of the trial

893 spidly  Thu, Jun 5, 2008 1:07:10am