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Top Air Force Officials Resign in Nuclear Snafu

Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 6:35:08 pm PDT

It’s about time, and it’s beyond frightening that the people charged with guarding our nuclear arsenal have become this lax: Gates ousts Air Force leaders in historic shake-up.

And if you really want to be scared, imagine what nuclear security is like in the former Soviet Union.

WASHINGTON - Defense Secretary Robert Gates ousted the Air Force’s top military and civilian leaders Thursday, holding them to account in a historic Pentagon shake-up after embarrassing nuclear mix-ups.

Gates announced at a news conference that he had accepted the resignations of Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Michael Moseley and Air Force Secretary Michael Wynne — a highly unusual double firing.

Gates said his decision was based mainly on the damning conclusions of an internal report on the mistaken shipment to Taiwan of four Air Force electrical fuses for ballistic missile warheads. And he linked the underlying causes of that slip-up to another startling incident: the flight last August of a B-52 bomber that was mistakenly armed with six nuclear-tipped cruise missiles.

The report drew the stunning conclusion that the Air Force’s nuclear standards have been in a long decline, a “problem that has been identified but not effectively addressed for over a decade.”

Gates said an internal investigation found a common theme in the B-52 and Taiwan incidents: “a decline in the Air Force’s nuclear mission focus and performance” and a failure by Air Force leaders to respond effectively.

In a reflection of his concern about the state of nuclear security, Gates said he had asked a former defense secretary, James Schlesinger, to lead a task force that will recommend ways to ensure that the highest levels of accountability and control are maintained in Air Force handling of nuclear weapons.

UPDATE at 6/5/08 6:47:52 pm:

And it gets worse: 5th Bomb Wing flunks nuclear inspection - Air Force News, news from Iraq - Air Force Times.

The 5th Bomb Wing at Minot Air Force Base, N.D., has failed its much-anticipated defense nuclear surety inspection, according to a Defense Threat Reduction Agency report.

DTRA inspectors gave the wing an “unsatisfactory” grade Sunday after uncovering many crucial mistakes during the weeklong inspection, which began May 17. They attributed the errors primarily to lack of supervision and leadership among security forces.

Inspectors from Air Combat Command also participated, but the Air Force refused to provide specifics on their findings.

Security broke down on multiple levels during simulated attacks across the base, including against nuclear weapons storage areas, according to the DTRA report, a copy of which was obtained by Air Force Times.

Inspectors watched as a security forces airman played video games on his cell phone while standing guard at a “restricted area perimeter,” the DTRA report said. Meanwhile, another airman nearby was “unaware of her duties and responsibilities” during the exercise.

(Hat tip: ratherdashing.)

148 comments

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1 Nevergiveup  6/05/08 6:36:00 pm reply quote

I lost my Passport once. It could happen to anyone.

2 joncelli  6/05/08 6:37:06 pm reply quote

The commenters at Rantburg -- who are a pretty knowledgeable bunch -- theorize that it's not just the nuclear snafu, but also inertia, contract screwups like the tanker debacle, and a general unwillingness to support the other services. Look for more generals to get their retirement early too.

3 rusty_armor  6/05/08 6:38:16 pm reply quote

How they could possibly not know that a nuke was not improperly signed out is beyond me. They need to put a corporal in charge of the inventory who will not release one unless all the proper proceedures are followed.

4 paxnhymn  6/05/08 6:39:32 pm reply quote

It wasn't just the nuclear flyover..everytime the Army requested a Predator, those effing pinheads in AF command gave a million excuses( I have two brothers deployed and a daughter in the AF, so I have a little background.) as to why it wasn't coming...pisses me off!

5 lawhawk  6/05/08 6:40:04 pm reply quote

These two incidents by themselves should have resulted in personnel changes and changes in policy practice. Taken together, they demanded that Generals with lots of stars fall.

Gates had no choice but to clean house. The SAC had become complacent on security protocols, and hopefully they'll see this through.

In a related note, the B-2 crash in Guam was due to a moisture in a sensor that prevented proper readings. The crash could have been avoided had procedures to purge moisture from the sensor were passed along to all units, and not just by random word of mouth.

And BREAKING - Hillary and Obama are meeting in DC. Oh, to be a fly on that wall.

7 jcm  6/05/08 6:40:59 pm reply quote

Honey! Where did I put the thermonuclear weapons?

8 ratherdashing  6/05/08 6:41:58 pm reply quote

The same base that shipped the nukes by mistake to Barksdale, after months of tightening things up, still failed their last inspection.

(looking for the link)

9 pat  6/05/08 6:42:15 pm reply quote

I think it was contract screwups also. Goes too high for the nuke screwup. There is also another thing. The air force has consistently opposed the independent use of drones by the Army and Marines of any drone that flies above 3,500 feet. i hope this is a response to that absurd position. it has been an incredible detriment. And the use of petty power that has killed innumerable men in the field is a nationa disgrace and technologically backward.

10 Nevergiveup  6/05/08 6:42:59 pm reply quote

re: #8 ratherdashing

The same base that shipped the nukes by mistake to Barksdale, after months of tightening things up, still failed their last inspection.

(looking for the link)

I saw that, but I have a hunch they were gonna fail that inspection not matter what.

11 The Other Les  6/05/08 6:43:08 pm reply quote

re: #5 lawhawk

And BREAKING - Hillary and Obama are meeting in DC. Oh, to be a fly on that wall.

Will he walk out alive?

12 CIA Reject  6/05/08 6:43:35 pm reply quote

What the hell ever happened to PRP? It looks like some of the people handling our nuclear weapons shouldn't be trusted to operate a TV remote- how the hell did THAT happen?

13 Nevergiveup  6/05/08 6:43:53 pm reply quote

re: #11 The Other Les

Will he walk out alive?

Vince Foster didn't have secret service protection remember?

14 Charles  6/05/08 6:44:00 pm reply quote

re: #5 lawhawk

In a related note, the B-2 crash in Guam was due to a moisture in a sensor that prevented proper readings. The crash could have been avoided had procedures to purge moisture from the sensor were passed along to all units, and not just by random word of mouth.

And there is something seriously wrong with the oversight of military technology, when a little moisture in one sensor can bring down an aircraft that costs more than a billion dollars.

15 lawhawk  6/05/08 6:44:32 pm reply quote

re: #9 pat

Intraservice rivalry is alive and well, and continues even in wartime. They fight over every dollar spent, every program, every toilet seat and hammer.

It's the Pentagon way. And you're right - lives do get put at risk. Both in the field and back home.

16 The Shadow Do  6/05/08 6:44:34 pm reply quote

Strategic command has become fat and lazy. Happens to every organization that loses its sense of mission. I applaud Gates for running this comfy cozy couple off.

17 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  6/05/08 6:44:56 pm
18 Nevergiveup  6/05/08 6:45:24 pm reply quote

re: #14 Charles

And there is something seriously wrong with the oversight of military technology, when moisture in a sensor can bring down an aircraft that costs more than a billion dollars.

Or launching a space shuttle in freezing weather?

19 ratherdashing  6/05/08 6:45:44 pm reply quote

Found it!
5th Bomb Wing Flunks Nuclear Inspection


Posted : Monday Jun 2, 2008 18:13:28 EDT

The 5th Bomb Wing at Minot Air Force Base, N.D., has failed its much-anticipated defense nuclear surety inspection, according to a Defense Threat Reduction Agency report.

DTRA inspectors gave the wing an “unsatisfactory” grade Sunday after uncovering many crucial mistakes during the weeklong inspection, which began May 17. They attributed the errors primarily to lack of supervision and leadership among security forces.

Inspectors from Air Combat Command also participated, but the Air Force refused to provide specifics on their findings.

Security broke down on multiple levels during simulated attacks across the base, including against nuclear weapons storage areas, according to the DTRA report, a copy of which was obtained by Air Force Times.

Inspectors watched as a security forces airman played video games on his cell phone while standing guard at a “restricted area perimeter,” the DTRA report said. Meanwhile, another airman nearby was “unaware of her duties and responsibilities” during the exercise.

The lapses are baffling, given the high-level focus on Minot since last August, when 5th Bomb Wing airmen mistakenly loaded six nuclear-tipped cruise missiles onto a B-52 Stratofortress and flew them to Barksdale Air Force Base, La., where the plane sat on the flight line, unattended, for hours. That incident not only embarrassed the Air Force, but raised concerns worldwide about the deterioration in U.S. nuclear safety standards.

20 mikeinmd  6/05/08 6:46:08 pm reply quote

re: #7 jcm

Honey! Where did I put the thermonuclear weapons?

Next to my....keys ?

Honey !

21 offendi  6/05/08 6:46:36 pm reply quote

Sounds like candidates for top positions in the Obama administration to me.

22 paxnhymn  6/05/08 6:46:45 pm reply quote

re: #9 pat

I think it was contract screwups also. Goes too high for the nuke screwup. There is also another thing. The air force has consistently opposed the independent use of drones by the Army and Marines of any drone that flies above 3,500 feet. i hope this is a response to that absurd position. it has been an incredible detriment. And the use of petty power that has killed innumerable men in the field is a nationa disgrace and technologically backward.

ohh hell yeah! there was also some brother- in law deals concerning the T-birds...damn shame. The Birds are the best flying group in the world ( I live in Pensacola so all you Blue Angels fans bite me!)

:-D

23 Lively  6/05/08 6:47:10 pm reply quote

Change!

24 joncelli  6/05/08 6:47:47 pm reply quote

Oh, and the tanker contract, which was a mess from A to Z. More Googling...

25 The Shadow Do  6/05/08 6:47:52 pm reply quote

I remember when SAC was the model for military effectiveness, and respected. Clean house now.

26 jcm  6/05/08 6:47:52 pm reply quote

re: #12 CIA Reject

What the hell ever happened to PRP? It looks like some of the people handling our nuclear weapons shouldn't be trusted to operate a TV remote- how the hell did THAT happen?

I never worked with "special weapons" while in the AF, but a buddy I went through basic did. Then (30 years ago) the storage bunker would be guarded by Air Police trained by the USMC "with authorization" in other words a shot first ask questions later policy. No went near a weapon with out a partner, and two watchers. Policy was two people to move, or work on a weapon, and two to watch for safety and security.

I guess things have slipped a bit.

27 Nevergiveup  6/05/08 6:48:05 pm reply quote

re: #21 offendi

Sounds like candidates for top positions in the Obama administration to me.

Well really doesn't matter. I mean Obama intends to unilaterally do away with our Nuclear Deterrent anyway.

28 jcm  6/05/08 6:49:02 pm reply quote

This problem will go away with Obama as president, he'll talk to everyone and get rid of the pesky things.

Change!

/////

29 BignJames  6/05/08 6:49:06 pm reply quote

They AF reorganized their command structure 10-15? years ago. Apparently with no built-in oversight.

30 joncelli  6/05/08 6:49:29 pm reply quote

re: #24 joncelli

Here ya go...

31 greenpine  6/05/08 6:50:10 pm reply quote

re: #18 Nevergiveup

On the West Coast, My father the rocket scientist figured almost immediately the reason for the explosion. Very, very sad. Here in this household we follow all aerospace projects.

32 The Other Les  6/05/08 6:50:38 pm reply quote

re: #13 Nevergiveup

Vince Foster didn't have secret service protection remember?

Oh. Yes.

And the Beast treated the Secret Service with contempt.

33 Nevergiveup  6/05/08 6:50:59 pm reply quote

And it is kinda scary to think what may be happening with all them nukes over in the Former Soviet Union!

34 jcm  6/05/08 6:52:06 pm reply quote

Curtis LeMay may have be an extraordinary ass. But he was an effective SOB.

35 The Shadow Do  6/05/08 6:52:15 pm reply quote

re: #33 Nevergiveup

And it is kinda scary to think what may be happening with all them nukes over in the Former Soviet Union!

I wouldn't be surprised to learn they are doing a better job than we are.

36 MJ  6/05/08 6:52:21 pm reply quote

Gates has been very public about in his criticism of the Air Force's lack of support in Iraq and Afghanistan:


Gates criticises Air Force role
Defence Secretary Robert Gates has strongly criticised the US Air Force's tactics in Iraq and Afghanistan.

He said asking for extra support had been "like pulling teeth" and accused some military leaders of being "stuck in old ways of doing business".

In a speech at Maxwell Air Force Base, Alabama, the Pentagon chief said the US military needed more equipment and drones to collect intelligence.

He praised its overall contribution but called on the service to do more.

He said he wanted the Air Force to deploy more reconnaissance aircraft, like the pilotless Predator drone that provides real-time surveillance footage.

'Not good enough'

"I've been wrestling for months to get more intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance assets into the theatre," Mr Gates told officer students at the Air Force university.

"Because people were stuck in old ways of doing business, it's been like pulling teeth.
[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

37 lawhawk  6/05/08 6:52:32 pm reply quote

re: #14 Charles

Not exactly - there have been several airline crashes (non military) and military crashes (F117s) IIRC that relate to sensors that were clogged, set to the wrong position, that resulted in bad data coming into the computers that made them think that the aircraft was higher/lower than it actually was, and crashed as a result of bad inputs.

Such is the nature of a complex aircraft that still requires external data.

38 The Other Les  6/05/08 6:52:35 pm reply quote

re: #33 Nevergiveup

And it is kinda scary to think what may be happening with all them nukes over in the Former Soviet Union!

That's why I plan on being out of town during the RNC in September.

39 CIA Reject  6/05/08 6:52:40 pm reply quote

re: #26 jcm

I never worked with "special weapons" while in the AF, but a buddy I went through basic did. Then (30 years ago) the storage bunker would be guarded by Air Police trained by the USMC "with authorization" in other words a shot first ask questions later policy. No went near a weapon with out a partner, and two watchers. Policy was two people to move, or work on a weapon, and two to watch for safety and security.

I guess things have slipped a bit.

I'll say- some of the finest folks I've ever known are the military people I met who worked in that area. I can't imagine THEM allowing anything even remotely like this to happen!

40 Killian Bundy  6/05/08 6:52:50 pm reply quote
Top Air Force Officials Resign in Nuclear Snafu

/that's a polite way to put it

41 Carridine  6/05/08 6:53:39 pm reply quote

Upthread, Charles mentions post-USSR nuclear security...

Explicitly, with more than 30,000 KNOWN nuclear warheads and weapons, if (and this is a BIG IF) if the current security is 99.9% secure, there are ONLY 30 warheads unaccounted for.

THAT's the problem.

42 Nevergiveup  6/05/08 6:53:43 pm reply quote

re: #34 jcm

Curtis LeMay may have be an extraordinary ass. But he was an effective SOB.

He had a very unique way of getting permission of some of his over flights of the Soviet Union. He just never asked permission. A can do kinda guy.

43 ec marm  6/05/08 6:53:58 pm reply quote

re: #33 Nevergiveup

And it is kinda scary to think what may be happening with all them nukes over in the Former Soviet Union!


A bunch of nations paid a ton of money through the U.N. iirc, to inventory and secure all the Soviet nuke materials. You don't suppose they did less than a stellar job?

44 jcm  6/05/08 6:54:22 pm reply quote

re: #33 Nevergiveup

And it is kinda scary to think what may be happening with all them nukes over in the Former Soviet Union!

The only consolation is they are high maintenance items. If they've been sitting around for a long time they likely won't work. But, they can be repaired, the fissile material recovered the technology copied.

45 offendi  6/05/08 6:54:44 pm reply quote

re: #27 Nevergiveup

Well really doesn't matter. I mean Obama intends to unilaterally do away with our Nuclear Deterrent anyway.

Strategic Talking Command?

46 Charles  6/05/08 6:55:40 pm reply quote

re: #37 lawhawk

Not exactly - there have been several airline crashes (non military) and military crashes (F117s) IIRC that relate to sensors that were clogged, set to the wrong position, that resulted in bad data coming into the computers that made them think that the aircraft was higher/lower than it actually was, and crashed as a result of bad inputs.

Such is the nature of a complex aircraft that still requires external data.

I'm a lot less forgiving when it comes to something this vital. There should never be a single point of failure this fragile, and especially not when it comes to nuclear weapons.

47 Carridine  6/05/08 6:55:44 pm reply quote

re: #44 jcm
That's ANOTHER part of the problem, JCM...

48 Occasional Reader  6/05/08 6:56:06 pm reply quote

Look, what right do we have to keep all these nuclear weapons to ourselves, anyway, when there are other countries that don't have any?

/Vote Obama

49 CIA Reject  6/05/08 6:56:42 pm reply quote

re: #34 jcm

Curtis LeMay may have be an extraordinary ass. But he was an effective SOB.

My FIL was in SAC in 1949 when LeMay took over. He always had the greatest respect for the man and for how he "took charge and cleaned up!". I wonder if there's another one like him out there because we sure as hell need him!

50 secsailor  6/05/08 6:57:55 pm reply quote

The government always does such a great job at managing every it touches. I think we should put them in charge of our health care!


NOT!

51 MandyManners  6/05/08 6:58:24 pm reply quote

I can hear the Left right now blaming Pres. Bush.

52 jcm  6/05/08 6:58:51 pm reply quote

re: #42 Nevergiveup

He had a very unique way of getting permission of some of his over flights of the Soviet Union. He just never asked permission. A can do kinda guy.

Frankly I'd put up with personality to have another one. Patton, Rickover too. LeMay designed and implement the safeguards that worked so well for so long, and didn't tolerated any sloppiness.

A Cold War Legacy, A Tribute to Strategic Air Command, 1946-1992

This "labor of love" is a veritable notebook of recollections, data, SAC stories, and vignettes reporting the various stages of SAC's evolution. Lloyd's detailed accounts of the commanders, people, places, weapons systems, and operational concepts are presented in a way to give personal identity and recognition to SAC's people as they went about making history. Everyone who served in the Command will find his or her circumstances reflected in this very complete historical work.

It more of an excycolpedia than history. But an excellent, well document and done historical reference of SAC.

53 BignJames  6/05/08 6:59:35 pm reply quote

re: #46 Charles

I'm a lot less forgiving when it comes to something this vital. There should never be a single point of failure this fragile, and especially not when it comes to nuclear weapons.

There should be redundancy on all critical systems.

54 Nevergiveup  6/05/08 6:59:50 pm reply quote

re: #52 jcm

My comment was intended as a complement.

55 jcm  6/05/08 7:00:11 pm reply quote

re: #47 Carridine

That's ANOTHER part of the problem, JCM...

Yep, that is the main problem. Just saying you can't pull one out of storage after 15 years and light the fuse.

56 really grumpy big dog Johnson  6/05/08 7:00:32 pm reply quote

I'm trying to imagine this without wanting to vomit.

What if the aircraft with the nuke-tipped missles was suddenly called into emergency intervention because Homeland had come into last-minute information about an imminent terror attack within minutes of their target? What if that target was approaching central Houston or Denver or Phoenix with a huge high explosive bomb in a semi?

This was the culmination of a whole lot of things. I've been concerned with the ongoing reports of really abberrant incidents going on in the USAF for some time. The fitness report from Iraq was probably the straw that broke the camel's back completely in two. I'm quite sure that the very first person who would have been informed of their preliminary conclusions would have been the SecDef directly.

He did what he had to do, but it should have been done some time ago.

57 ratherdashing  6/05/08 7:01:00 pm reply quote

I was a Security Policeman in the USAF. We did our fair share of goofing off, even in the WSA (nuclear weapon storage area). But we were plenty serious and well armed, as well. After seeing weapons convoys and ALCM's loaded on B-52's and number of people involved and the procedures in place, I can't imagine how you could ship them from Minot to Barksdale by mistake. It's mind boggling!

58 Occasional Reader  6/05/08 7:01:01 pm reply quote

re: #37 lawhawk

Not exactly - there have been several airline crashes (non military) and military crashes (F117s) IIRC that relate to sensors that were clogged, set to the wrong position, that resulted in bad data coming into the computers that made them think that the aircraft was higher/lower than it actually was, and crashed as a result of bad inputs.

Such is the nature of a complex aircraft that still requires external data.

In at least two of the civilian airliner cases I know of, there was nothing "complex" about the cause of the crash. Boeing 767s, one case in India, one in Peru. In both cases, the cleaning crews had forgotten to remove the tape they place over the pitot tubes when they wash the plane. On the next flight (in both cases, at night), the tubes were therefore relaying bad data in terms of air pressure/altitude; the pilots thought they were maintaining altitude, when in fact they were descending. The result: "Controlled flight into terrain", as they delicately put it. Everybody died.

59 WriterMom  6/05/08 7:01:17 pm reply quote
60 jcm  6/05/08 7:01:58 pm reply quote

re: #54 Nevergiveup

My comment was intended as a complement.

Understood, thanks. ;-) Wasn't arguing. We need warriors! LeMay was a warrior.

61 Killian Bundy  6/05/08 7:02:10 pm reply quote

re: #41 Carridine

Upthread, Charles mentions post-USSR nuclear security...

Explicitly, with more than 30,000 KNOWN nuclear warheads and weapons, if (and this is a BIG IF) if the current security is 99.9% secure, there are ONLY 30 warheads unaccounted for.

THAT's the problem.

Hey, when in doubt run in circles scream and shout.

Obama will secure all loose nuclear materials in the world within four years. While we work to secure existing stockpiles of nuclear material, Obama will negotiate a verifiable global ban on the production of new nuclear weapons material. This will deny terrorists the ability to steal or buy loose nuclear materials.

/so relax

62 Kreuzueber Halbmond  6/05/08 7:02:11 pm reply quote

In my estimation, it's only a matter of time before one of those blasted things goes off "by accident" somewhere in the world. The fallibility of man, Murphy's Law and such make it almost certain.

63 offendi  6/05/08 7:03:21 pm reply quote

Nightmare scenario, the nukes fall into the wrong hands-

" This is Hillary Clinton, and I demand to be made President !"

64 CIA Reject  6/05/08 7:03:42 pm reply quote

re: #55 jcm

Yep, that is the main problem. Just saying you can't pull one out of storage after 15 years and light the fuse.

Tell that to our congress...

65 jcm  6/05/08 7:06:12 pm reply quote

re: #58 Occasional Reader

In at least two of the civilian airliner cases I know of, there was nothing "complex" about the cause of the crash. Boeing 767s, one case in India, one in Peru. In both cases, the cleaning crews had forgotten to remove the tape they place over the pitot tubes when they wash the plane. On the next flight (in both cases, at night), the tubes were therefore relaying bad data in terms of air pressure/altitude; the pilots thought they were maintaining altitude, when in fact they were descending. The result: "Controlled flight into terrain", as they delicately put it. Everybody died.

I remember the Peru one.

Aug. 27 1992 Test flight of a DH4 Caribou. Gust locks were not removed from the elevators. They keep winds from banging the elevators around.

With this result.

66 Oh no...Sand People!  6/05/08 7:06:31 pm reply quote

re: #46 Charles

I'm a lot less forgiving when it comes to something this vital. There should never be a single point of failure this fragile, and especially not when it comes to nuclear weapons.

That's the truth. This isn't like, 'Open up bag..."AAGH! This is the third time I asked for no ONION's!"....begin picking out onion chunks one by one'.

67 lobo91  6/05/08 7:06:56 pm reply quote

re: #61 Killian Bundy

Obama will negotiate a verifiable global ban on the production of new nuclear weapons material. This will deny terrorists the ability to steal or buy loose nuclear materials.

Yeah, unless someone breaks the rules or something.

I guess his inspiration came from the resounding success of the DC handgun ban...

68 jcm  6/05/08 7:07:34 pm reply quote

re: #64 CIA Reject

Tell that to our congress...

The Majority in Congress doesn't think missile defense works either.

*spit*

69 really grumpy big dog Johnson  6/05/08 7:07:42 pm reply quote

re: #46 Charles

I'm a lot less forgiving when it comes to something this vital. There should never be a single point of failure this fragile, and especially not when it comes to nuclear weapons.

Not to mention the B-2 is a fly-by-wire aircraft, meaning that if the pilots had to fly it by the seat fo the pants, it would fall out of the sky like a shotgunned duck.

Any sensor critical to flight operations should have at least double-redundancy, and the software handling guidance should have clear go/no-go procedures for overriding faulty sensor conditions. But maintenance by word of mouth is utter insanity in today's Air Force. Every kind of maintenance should be standard procedure or by some sort of prioritized maintenance bulletin disseminated simultaneosly to all in possession of the affected aircraft.

70 BBev  6/05/08 7:08:05 pm reply quote

My Mom went to Barksdale and all she brought me was this nuclear tipped missile :-)

71 jcm  6/05/08 7:08:41 pm reply quote

re: #61 Killian Bundy

/so relax

Meanwhile the Iranian centrifuges spin.....

72 startxjeff  6/05/08 7:08:50 pm reply quote

Something changed and it's not good. Playing a video game on a cell phone while on guard duty? If I caught one of my guards playing on a damn cell phone, I would have him removed from duty, confined to quarters, on bread and water rations, and pulling butts on a rifle range for 3 months.

73 Occasional Reader  6/05/08 7:11:04 pm reply quote

re: #65 jcm

I remember the Peru one.

Aug. 27 1992 Test flight of a DH4 Caribou. Gust locks were not removed from the elevators. They keep winds from banging the elevators around.

With this result.

Okay, but that Caribou is not the Peru one I'm thinking of... don't know if that's what you meant to say. It was an AeroPeru 767, in 1996 or '97.

74 lobo91  6/05/08 7:11:13 pm reply quote

re: #69 really grumpy big dog Johnson

Every kind of maintenance should be standard procedure or by some sort of prioritized maintenance bulletin disseminated simultaneosly to all in possession of the affected aircraft.

You wouldn't think that would be a big issue in this case, given that every B-2 ever built is based at the same place...

75 usaf_1980_2004  6/05/08 7:11:41 pm reply quote

Like we used to say: you can't spell stupid without SP. . . .

76 calcajun  6/05/08 7:12:58 pm reply quote

Sounds like Dr. Strangelove has managed to fire General Ripper

77 Tigger2005  6/05/08 7:13:07 pm reply quote

Not very many positives here, except for one very important one: This will lead to improvements. This is an advantage a free society with a military subject to civilian oversight holds over dictatorships and the like. Saddam probably knew next to nothing about what was really going on in his military.

78 Mars Needs Neocons  6/05/08 7:13:17 pm reply quote

re: #4 paxnhymn

It wasn't just the nuclear flyover..everytime the Army requested a Predator, those effing pinheads in AF command gave a million excuses( I have two brothers deployed and a daughter in the AF, so I have a little background.) as to why it wasn't coming...pisses me off!

Unless something has drastically changed, the way those exercises is run is pure incompetence. Command finds out about an upcoming inspection and exercises over and over until apathy sets in. Many times the people posted during inspections are night shift or swing shift that have either just gotten off duty or are going on. Days off are forgone and no one in charge pays attention to trying to balance the training amongst all shifts. It becomes a reoccurring nightmare. I don't mean to sound like AF are whiners, but after a while it gets ridiculous. We got hit with a nuke fallback mission right before I moved back to the US and it was a nightmare.

79 CIA Reject  6/05/08 7:14:10 pm reply quote

re: #68 jcm

The Majority in Congress doesn't think missile defense works either.

*spit*

You know, if stupid were a valuable commodity congress could pay the national debt in about fifteen minutes. Of all the nuclear powers the US is the only one that DOESN'T have some kind of weapons modernization program. If those idiots don't wake up REAL SOON and realize what that means then someday the rest of us are going to wake up in a country that is a SECOND RATE nuclear power. Not a position I want to be in!

80 jcm  6/05/08 7:14:12 pm reply quote

re: #73 Occasional Reader

Okay, but that Caribou is not the Peru one I'm thinking of... don't know if that's what you meant to say. It was an AeroPeru 767, in 1996 or '97.

No, no the Peru was the one your thinking of.

The Caribou is another instance of not checking the bird out. Both ground crew and flight crew should have checked the elevators. Then the flight crew at the taxiway just before pulling onto the active should have "stirred the stick" operated the controls in all axis to insure they worked.

81 cybermonk  6/05/08 7:14:35 pm reply quote

re: #57 ratherdashing

Same here, I was in SAC at Carswell AFB, Ft Worth and I guarded the nuclear weapons storage area and the alert area. I am proud to say we had very very tight security, nothing moved without tons of authorization from all kinds of people.
we were in fear of the dreaded ORI that could happen at any time. things must have gotten extremely lax.
Heads must roll.

82 Mars Needs Neocons  6/05/08 7:15:42 pm reply quote

re: #39 CIA Reject

I'll say- some of the finest folks I've ever known are the military people I met who worked in that area. I can't imagine THEM allowing anything even remotely like this to happen!

It was still about that in the 90s. We also got a lot of conflicting mission parameters. But, consider who was in overall command.

83 6pat6  6/05/08 7:16:05 pm reply quote
Inspectors watched as a security forces airman played video games on his cell phone while standing guard at a “restricted area perimeter,” the DTRA report said. Meanwhile, another airman nearby was “unaware of her duties and responsibilities” during the exercise.

Here are a couple of young Airmen that would be doing the shittiest details possible; 21 hours a day, seven days a week for three months, plus lose a couple of stripes, if this was my base and I had anything to say about their punishments! Their supervisors need to lose a stripe or two each, as well! Accountability and responsibility. Where the hell was it in this exercise/inspection on the part of the base? The base commander and the wing commander are probably toast by now, I'd bet $$$.

Don't fu*k with nukes!

84 Mars Needs Neocons  6/05/08 7:16:40 pm reply quote

re: #75 usaf_1980_2004

Like we used to say: you can't spell stupid without SP. . . .

Not real thrilled with that perception. I was qualified for nearly anything I could have chosen, but took SP because I had an interest in police work.

85 Occasional Reader  6/05/08 7:17:39 pm reply quote

re: #80 jcm

Yet another f***-up with the AeroPeru crash; the pilot knew he was in trouble, and kept asking the Lima control tower to verify his altitude. They kept assuring him that he was at umpty-ump thousand feet. The thing was... the radar at the Lima tower at that time was UNABLE to accurately read altitude, and the system in fact just was taking the signal from the plane's own transponder and giving it to the tower staff. So they were reassuring the pilot with the same garbage info he was getting from his own computer. Really tragic. A couple hundred people died.

86 JeremyR  6/05/08 7:17:42 pm reply quote

re: #25 The Shadow Do

I remember when SAC was the model for military effectiveness, and respected. Clean house now.

Scheduled Air Crashes.

87 JeremyR  6/05/08 7:18:34 pm reply quote

re: #75 usaf_1980_2004

Like we used to say: you can't spell stupid without SP. . . .

And you can't spell wimp with out an MP.

88 ratherdashing  6/05/08 7:19:01 pm reply quote

re: #84 Mars Needs Neocons

re: #81 cybermonk

too cool. Three former SP's at LGF.

89 CIA Reject  6/05/08 7:19:53 pm reply quote

re: #82 Mars Needs Neocons

It was still about that in the 90s. We also got a lot of conflicting mission parameters. But, consider who was in overall command.

As Shakespeare said in Julius Caesar: "The evil that men do lives after them..."

/I guess the stupid as well...

90 really grumpy big dog Johnson  6/05/08 7:20:05 pm reply quote

re: #58 Occasional Reader

In at least two of the civilian airliner cases I know of, there was nothing "complex" about the cause of the crash. Boeing 767s, one case in India, one in Peru. In both cases, the cleaning crews had forgotten to remove the tape they place over the pitot tubes when they wash the plane. On the next flight (in both cases, at night), the tubes were therefore relaying bad data in terms of air pressure/altitude; the pilots thought they were maintaining altitude, when in fact they were descending. The result: "Controlled flight into terrain", as they delicately put it. Everybody died.

That's an example of an entirely avoidable situation with proper procedures. Since I already suspect that commercial airline pilots may not do pre-flight visual inspections by walking around the aircraft, then the responsibity must be appropriated to someone to go through a post-maintenance procedure certifying the flight worthiness of the aircraft after that maintenance.

In this case the blame will fall upon whoever left the pitot tubes covered, but anyone knows that proper safety of commercial passenger carrier operations has to be backed by redundancy of procedures. Any one person can make a mistake sooner or later, and just one could be fatal. The chance of two people (both in positions of critical responsibility) making the exact same mistake with carefully crafted procedures is vanishgly small.

In the case of the pitot tubes a very easy fix could have been available: rather than taping the pitot tubes, part of the maintenance procedure should be using soft rubber plugs to block them, with the plugs themselves securely attached to a strong light cable. At the other end of the cable should be large fluorescent orange plastic tags, so that it would be almost impossible to overlook this mistake.

91 usaf_1980_2004  6/05/08 7:20:39 pm reply quote

re: #84 Mars Needs Neocons

Not real thrilled with that perception. I was qualified for nearly anything I could have chosen, but took SP because I had an interest in police work.

It was an SP who told me that joke.

92 Mars Needs Neocons  6/05/08 7:20:46 pm reply quote

re: #88 ratherdashing

re: #81 cybermonk

too cool. Three former SP's at LGF.

Now all we need is Chuck Norris, George Carlin, and Sinbad.

Actually only one of those is even vaguely conservative now I think, not a good average. Forget I mentioned it.

93 6pat6  6/05/08 7:21:24 pm reply quote

re: #25 The Shadow Do

I remember when SAC was the model for military effectiveness, and respected. Clean house now.

Sac hasn't been SAC since the reshaping of all AF commands in the early '90s. SAC and TAC became a unified Air Combat Command, or ACC. This was during Gen Merrill "Skeletor" McPeak's reign of stupidity as AF CoS, IIRC. I+Oh, and he is now Obama's campaign manage, and likely to be the SecDef in an Obama regime! NOOOO!

94 haakondahl  6/05/08 7:21:31 pm reply quote

Stand by for the Air Force to start whinging about how they are stretched too thin supporting conventioal ops, and how they never much liked the Close Air Support mission anyway. Fighter-to-fighter and Nukes are their chosen hobbies, while AMC is how they pay the bills. Supporting ground troops has always been an albatross to them, because that means they have to cooperate.
See the USAF/Army/Congress debacle over the A-10 for details.

95 Mars Needs Neocons  6/05/08 7:21:52 pm reply quote

re: #89 CIA Reject

As Shakespeare said in Julius Caesar: "The evil that men do lives after them..."

/I guess the stupid as well...

The incompetent pres and his personal appointees did everything they could to destroy the AF and I'm sure the rest of the military as well.

96 BBev  6/05/08 7:22:56 pm reply quote

re: #87 JeremyR

And you can't spell wimp with out an MP.

Wow I'm going to have to tell that to a couple Marine buds of mine that were MP's each over 6'5" and over 230 lbs. I'm going to stand back first seeing as I am 5'8" and only 154 lbs.

97 Mars Needs Neocons  6/05/08 7:23:27 pm reply quote

re: #91 usaf_1980_2004

It was an SP who told me that joke.

I know, I had the same joke told. Just hated the generalization.

98 Mars Needs Neocons  6/05/08 7:24:21 pm reply