I lost my Passport once. It could happen to anyone.

The commenters at Rantburg -- who are a pretty knowledgeable bunch -- theorize that it's not just the nuclear snafu, but also inertia, contract screwups like the tanker debacle, and a general unwillingness to support the other services. Look for more generals to get their retirement early too.

How they could possibly not know that a nuke was not improperly signed out is beyond me. They need to put a corporal in charge of the inventory who will not release one unless all the proper proceedures are followed.

It wasn't just the nuclear flyover..everytime the Army requested a Predator, those effing pinheads in AF command gave a million excuses( I have two brothers deployed and a daughter in the AF, so I have a little background.) as to why it wasn't coming...pisses me off!

These two incidents by themselves should have resulted in personnel changes and changes in policy practice. Taken together, they demanded that Generals with lots of stars fall.

Gates had no choice but to clean house. The SAC had become complacent on security protocols, and hopefully they'll see this through.

In a related note, the B-2 crash in Guam was due to a moisture in a sensor that prevented proper readings. The crash could have been avoided had procedures to purge moisture from the sensor were passed along to all units, and not just by random word of mouth.

And BREAKING - Hillary and Obama are meeting in DC. Oh, to be a fly on that wall.

Here's the Rantburg thread.

Honey! Where did I put the thermonuclear weapons?

The same base that shipped the nukes by mistake to Barksdale, after months of tightening things up, still failed their last inspection.

(looking for the link)

I think it was contract screwups also. Goes too high for the nuke screwup. There is also another thing. The air force has consistently opposed the independent use of drones by the Army and Marines of any drone that flies above 3,500 feet. i hope this is a response to that absurd position. it has been an incredible detriment. And the use of petty power that has killed innumerable men in the field is a nationa disgrace and technologically backward.

re: #8 ratherdashing

The same base that shipped the nukes by mistake to Barksdale, after months of tightening things up, still failed their last inspection.

(looking for the link)

I saw that, but I have a hunch they were gonna fail that inspection not matter what.

re: #5 lawhawk

And BREAKING - Hillary and Obama are meeting in DC. Oh, to be a fly on that wall.

Will he walk out alive?

What the hell ever happened to PRP? It looks like some of the people handling our nuclear weapons shouldn't be trusted to operate a TV remote- how the hell did THAT happen?

re: #11 The Other Les

Will he walk out alive?

Vince Foster didn't have secret service protection remember?

re: #5 lawhawk

In a related note, the B-2 crash in Guam was due to a moisture in a sensor that prevented proper readings. The crash could have been avoided had procedures to purge moisture from the sensor were passed along to all units, and not just by random word of mouth.

And there is something seriously wrong with the oversight of military technology, when a little moisture in one sensor can bring down an aircraft that costs more than a billion dollars.

re: #9 pat

Intraservice rivalry is alive and well, and continues even in wartime. They fight over every dollar spent, every program, every toilet seat and hammer.

It's the Pentagon way. And you're right - lives do get put at risk. Both in the field and back home.

Strategic command has become fat and lazy. Happens to every organization that loses its sense of mission. I applaud Gates for running this comfy cozy couple off.

re: #14 Charles

And there is something seriously wrong with the oversight of military technology, when moisture in a sensor can bring down an aircraft that costs more than a billion dollars.

Or launching a space shuttle in freezing weather?

Found it!
5th Bomb Wing Flunks Nuclear Inspection

Posted : Monday Jun 2, 2008 18:13:28 EDT

The 5th Bomb Wing at Minot Air Force Base, N.D., has failed its much-anticipated defense nuclear surety inspection, according to a Defense Threat Reduction Agency report.

DTRA inspectors gave the wing an “unsatisfactory” grade Sunday after uncovering many crucial mistakes during the weeklong inspection, which began May 17. They attributed the errors primarily to lack of supervision and leadership among security forces.

Inspectors from Air Combat Command also participated, but the Air Force refused to provide specifics on their findings.

Security broke down on multiple levels during simulated attacks across the base, including against nuclear weapons storage areas, according to the DTRA report, a copy of which was obtained by Air Force Times.

Inspectors watched as a security forces airman played video games on his cell phone while standing guard at a “restricted area perimeter,” the DTRA report said. Meanwhile, another airman nearby was “unaware of her duties and responsibilities” during the exercise.

The lapses are baffling, given the high-level focus on Minot since last August, when 5th Bomb Wing airmen mistakenly loaded six nuclear-tipped cruise missiles onto a B-52 Stratofortress and flew them to Barksdale Air Force Base, La., where the plane sat on the flight line, unattended, for hours. That incident not only embarrassed the Air Force, but raised concerns worldwide about the deterioration in U.S. nuclear safety standards.

re: #7 jcm

Honey! Where did I put the thermonuclear weapons?

Next to my....keys ?

Honey !

Sounds like candidates for top positions in the Obama administration to me.

re: #9 pat

I think it was contract screwups also. Goes too high for the nuke screwup. There is also another thing. The air force has consistently opposed the independent use of drones by the Army and Marines of any drone that flies above 3,500 feet. i hope this is a response to that absurd position. it has been an incredible detriment. And the use of petty power that has killed innumerable men in the field is a nationa disgrace and technologically backward.

ohh hell yeah! there was also some brother- in law deals concerning the T-birds...damn shame. The Birds are the best flying group in the world ( I live in Pensacola so all you Blue Angels fans bite me!)

:-D

Change!

Oh, and the tanker contract, which was a mess from A to Z. More Googling...

I remember when SAC was the model for military effectiveness, and respected. Clean house now.

re: #12 CIA Reject

What the hell ever happened to PRP? It looks like some of the people handling our nuclear weapons shouldn't be trusted to operate a TV remote- how the hell did THAT happen?

I never worked with "special weapons" while in the AF, but a buddy I went through basic did. Then (30 years ago) the storage bunker would be guarded by Air Police trained by the USMC "with authorization" in other words a shot first ask questions later policy. No went near a weapon with out a partner, and two watchers. Policy was two people to move, or work on a weapon, and two to watch for safety and security.

I guess things have slipped a bit.

re: #21 offendi

Sounds like candidates for top positions in the Obama administration to me.

Well really doesn't matter. I mean Obama intends to unilaterally do away with our Nuclear Deterrent anyway.

This problem will go away with Obama as president, he'll talk to everyone and get rid of the pesky things.

Change!

/////

They AF reorganized their command structure 10-15? years ago. Apparently with no built-in oversight.

re: #24 joncelli

Here ya go...

re: #18 Nevergiveup

On the West Coast, My father the rocket scientist figured almost immediately the reason for the explosion. Very, very sad. Here in this household we follow all aerospace projects.

re: #13 Nevergiveup

Vince Foster didn't have secret service protection remember?

Oh. Yes.

And the Beast treated the Secret Service with contempt.

And it is kinda scary to think what may be happening with all them nukes over in the Former Soviet Union!

Curtis LeMay may have be an extraordinary ass. But he was an effective SOB.

re: #33 Nevergiveup

And it is kinda scary to think what may be happening with all them nukes over in the Former Soviet Union!

I wouldn't be surprised to learn they are doing a better job than we are.

Gates has been very public about in his criticism of the Air Force's lack of support in Iraq and Afghanistan:

Gates criticises Air Force role
Defence Secretary Robert Gates has strongly criticised the US Air Force's tactics in Iraq and Afghanistan.

He said asking for extra support had been "like pulling teeth" and accused some military leaders of being "stuck in old ways of doing business".

In a speech at Maxwell Air Force Base, Alabama, the Pentagon chief said the US military needed more equipment and drones to collect intelligence.

He praised its overall contribution but called on the service to do more.

He said he wanted the Air Force to deploy more reconnaissance aircraft, like the pilotless Predator drone that provides real-time surveillance footage.

'Not good enough'

"I've been wrestling for months to get more intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance assets into the theatre," Mr Gates told officer students at the Air Force university.

"Because people were stuck in old ways of doing business, it's been like pulling teeth.
[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

re: #14 Charles

Not exactly - there have been several airline crashes (non military) and military crashes (F117s) IIRC that relate to sensors that were clogged, set to the wrong position, that resulted in bad data coming into the computers that made them think that the aircraft was higher/lower than it actually was, and crashed as a result of bad inputs.

Such is the nature of a complex aircraft that still requires external data.

re: #33 Nevergiveup

And it is kinda scary to think what may be happening with all them nukes over in the Former Soviet Union!

That's why I plan on being out of town during the RNC in September.

re: #26 jcm

I never worked with "special weapons" while in the AF, but a buddy I went through basic did. Then (30 years ago) the storage bunker would be guarded by Air Police trained by the USMC "with authorization" in other words a shot first ask questions later policy. No went near a weapon with out a partner, and two watchers. Policy was two people to move, or work on a weapon, and two to watch for safety and security.

I guess things have slipped a bit.

I'll say- some of the finest folks I've ever known are the military people I met who worked in that area. I can't imagine THEM allowing anything even remotely like this to happen!

Top Air Force Officials Resign in Nuclear Snafu

/that's a polite way to put it

Upthread, Charles mentions post-USSR nuclear security...

Explicitly, with more than 30,000 KNOWN nuclear warheads and weapons, if (and this is a BIG IF) if the current security is 99.9% secure, there are ONLY 30 warheads unaccounted for.

THAT's the problem.

re: #34 jcm

Curtis LeMay may have be an extraordinary ass. But he was an effective SOB.

He had a very unique way of getting permission of some of his over flights of the Soviet Union. He just never asked permission. A can do kinda guy.

re: #33 Nevergiveup

And it is kinda scary to think what may be happening with all them nukes over in the Former Soviet Union!

A bunch of nations paid a ton of money through the U.N. iirc, to inventory and secure all the Soviet nuke materials. You don't suppose they did less than a stellar job?

re: #33 Nevergiveup

And it is kinda scary to think what may be happening with all them nukes over in the Former Soviet Union!

The only consolation is they are high maintenance items. If they've been sitting around for a long time they likely won't work. But, they can be repaired, the fissile material recovered the technology copied.

re: #27 Nevergiveup

Well really doesn't matter. I mean Obama intends to unilaterally do away with our Nuclear Deterrent anyway.

Strategic Talking Command?

re: #37 lawhawk

Not exactly - there have been several airline crashes (non military) and military crashes (F117s) IIRC that relate to sensors that were clogged, set to the wrong position, that resulted in bad data coming into the computers that made them think that the aircraft was higher/lower than it actually was, and crashed as a result of bad inputs.

Such is the nature of a complex aircraft that still requires external data.

I'm a lot less forgiving when it comes to something this vital. There should never be a single point of failure this fragile, and especially not when it comes to nuclear weapons.

re: #44 jcm
That's ANOTHER part of the problem, JCM...

Look, what right do we have to keep all these nuclear weapons to ourselves, anyway, when there are other countries that don't have any?

/Vote Obama

re: #34 jcm

Curtis LeMay may have be an extraordinary ass. But he was an effective SOB.

My FIL was in SAC in 1949 when LeMay took over. He always had the greatest respect for the man and for how he "took charge and cleaned up!". I wonder if there's another one like him out there because we sure as hell need him!

The government always does such a great job at managing every it touches. I think we should put them in charge of our health care!

NOT!

I can hear the Left right now blaming Pres. Bush.

re: #42 Nevergiveup

He had a very unique way of getting permission of some of his over flights of the Soviet Union. He just never asked permission. A can do kinda guy.

Frankly I'd put up with personality to have another one. Patton, Rickover too. LeMay designed and implement the safeguards that worked so well for so long, and didn't tolerated any sloppiness.

A Cold War Legacy, A Tribute to Strategic Air Command, 1946-1992

This "labor of love" is a veritable notebook of recollections, data, SAC stories, and vignettes reporting the various stages of SAC's evolution. Lloyd's detailed accounts of the commanders, people, places, weapons systems, and operational concepts are presented in a way to give personal identity and recognition to SAC's people as they went about making history. Everyone who served in the Command will find his or her circumstances reflected in this very complete historical work.

It more of an excycolpedia than history. But an excellent, well document and done historical reference of SAC.

re: #46 Charles

I'm a lot less forgiving when it comes to something this vital. There should never be a single point of failure this fragile, and especially not when it comes to nuclear weapons.

There should be redundancy on all critical systems.

re: #52 jcm

My comment was intended as a complement.

re: #47 Carridine

That's ANOTHER part of the problem, JCM...

Yep, that is the main problem. Just saying you can't pull one out of storage after 15 years and light the fuse.

I'm trying to imagine this without wanting to vomit.

What if the aircraft with the nuke-tipped missles was suddenly called into emergency intervention because Homeland had come into last-minute information about an imminent terror attack within minutes of their target? What if that target was approaching central Houston or Denver or Phoenix with a huge high explosive bomb in a semi?

This was the culmination of a whole lot of things. I've been concerned with the ongoing reports of really abberrant incidents going on in the USAF for some time. The fitness report from Iraq was probably the straw that broke the camel's back completely in two. I'm quite sure that the very first person who would have been informed of their preliminary conclusions would have been the SecDef directly.

He did what he had to do, but it should have been done some time ago.

I was a Security Policeman in the USAF. We did our fair share of goofing off, even in the WSA (nuclear weapon storage area). But we were plenty serious and well armed, as well. After seeing weapons convoys and ALCM's loaded on B-52's and number of people involved and the procedures in place, I can't imagine how you could ship them from Minot to Barksdale by mistake. It's mind boggling!

re: #37 lawhawk

Not exactly - there have been several airline crashes (non military) and military crashes (F117s) IIRC that relate to sensors that were clogged, set to the wrong position, that resulted in bad data coming into the computers that made them think that the aircraft was higher/lower than it actually was, and crashed as a result of bad inputs.

Such is the nature of a complex aircraft that still requires external data.

In at least two of the civilian airliner cases I know of, there was nothing "complex" about the cause of the crash. Boeing 767s, one case in India, one in Peru. In both cases, the cleaning crews had forgotten to remove the tape they place over the pitot tubes when they wash the plane. On the next flight (in both cases, at night), the tubes were therefore relaying bad data in terms of air pressure/altitude; the pilots thought they were maintaining altitude, when in fact they were descending. The result: "Controlled flight into terrain", as they delicately put it. Everybody died.

OT: Obama Throws Jerusalem Under The Bus

re: #54 Nevergiveup

My comment was intended as a complement.

Understood, thanks. ;-) Wasn't arguing. We need warriors! LeMay was a warrior.

re: #41 Carridine

Upthread, Charles mentions post-USSR nuclear security...

Explicitly, with more than 30,000 KNOWN nuclear warheads and weapons, if (and this is a BIG IF) if the current security is 99.9% secure, there are ONLY 30 warheads unaccounted for.

THAT's the problem.

Hey, when in doubt run in circles scream and shout.

Obama will secure all loose nuclear materials in the world within four years. While we work to secure existing stockpiles of nuclear material, Obama will negotiate a verifiable global ban on the production of new nuclear weapons material. This will deny terrorists the ability to steal or buy loose nuclear materials.

/so relax

In my estimation, it's only a matter of time before one of those blasted things goes off "by accident" somewhere in the world. The fallibility of man, Murphy's Law and such make it almost certain.

Nightmare scenario, the nukes fall into the wrong hands-

" This is Hillary Clinton, and I demand to be made President !"

re: #55 jcm

Yep, that is the main problem. Just saying you can't pull one out of storage after 15 years and light the fuse.

Tell that to our congress...

re: #58 Occasional Reader

In at least two of the civilian airliner cases I know of, there was nothing "complex" about the cause of the crash. Boeing 767s, one case in India, one in Peru. In both cases, the cleaning crews had forgotten to remove the tape they place over the pitot tubes when they wash the plane. On the next flight (in both cases, at night), the tubes were therefore relaying bad data in terms of air pressure/altitude; the pilots thought they were maintaining altitude, when in fact they were descending. The result: "Controlled flight into terrain", as they delicately put it. Everybody died.

I remember the Peru one.

Aug. 27 1992 Test flight of a DH4 Caribou. Gust locks were not removed from the elevators. They keep winds from banging the elevators around.

With this result.

re: #46 Charles

I'm a lot less forgiving when it comes to something this vital. There should never be a single point of failure this fragile, and especially not when it comes to nuclear weapons.

That's the truth. This isn't like, 'Open up bag..."AAGH! This is the third time I asked for no ONION's!"....begin picking out onion chunks one by one'.

re: #61 Killian Bundy

Obama will negotiate a verifiable global ban on the production of new nuclear weapons material. This will deny terrorists the ability to steal or buy loose nuclear materials.

Yeah, unless someone breaks the rules or something.

I guess his inspiration came from the resounding success of the DC handgun ban...

re: #64 CIA Reject

Tell that to our congress...

The Majority in Congress doesn't think missile defense works either.

*spit*

re: #46 Charles

I'm a lot less forgiving when it comes to something this vital. There should never be a single point of failure this fragile, and especially not when it comes to nuclear weapons.

Not to mention the B-2 is a fly-by-wire aircraft, meaning that if the pilots had to fly it by the seat fo the pants, it would fall out of the sky like a shotgunned duck.

Any sensor critical to flight operations should have at least double-redundancy, and the software handling guidance should have clear go/no-go procedures for overriding faulty sensor conditions. But maintenance by word of mouth is utter insanity in today's Air Force. Every kind of maintenance should be standard procedure or by some sort of prioritized maintenance bulletin disseminated simultaneosly to all in possession of the affected aircraft.

My Mom went to Barksdale and all she brought me was this nuclear tipped missile :-)

re: #61 Killian Bundy

/so relax

Meanwhile the Iranian centrifuges spin.....

Something changed and it's not good. Playing a video game on a cell phone while on guard duty? If I caught one of my guards playing on a damn cell phone, I would have him removed from duty, confined to quarters, on bread and water rations, and pulling butts on a rifle range for 3 months.

re: #65 jcm

I remember the Peru one.

Aug. 27 1992 Test flight of a DH4 Caribou. Gust locks were not removed from the elevators. They keep winds from banging the elevators around.

With this result.

Okay, but that Caribou is not the Peru one I'm thinking of... don't know if that's what you meant to say. It was an AeroPeru 767, in 1996 or '97.

re: #69 really grumpy big dog Johnson

Every kind of maintenance should be standard procedure or by some sort of prioritized maintenance bulletin disseminated simultaneosly to all in possession of the affected aircraft.

You wouldn't think that would be a big issue in this case, given that every B-2 ever built is based at the same place...

Like we used to say: you can't spell stupid without SP. . . .

Sounds like Dr. Strangelove has managed to fire General Ripper

Not very many positives here, except for one very important one: This will lead to improvements. This is an advantage a free society with a military subject to civilian oversight holds over dictatorships and the like. Saddam probably knew next to nothing about what was really going on in his military.

re: #4 paxnhymn

It wasn't just the nuclear flyover..everytime the Army requested a Predator, those effing pinheads in AF command gave a million excuses( I have two brothers deployed and a daughter in the AF, so I have a little background.) as to why it wasn't coming...pisses me off!

Unless something has drastically changed, the way those exercises is run is pure incompetence. Command finds out about an upcoming inspection and exercises over and over until apathy sets in. Many times the people posted during inspections are night shift or swing shift that have either just gotten off duty or are going on. Days off are forgone and no one in charge pays attention to trying to balance the training amongst all shifts. It becomes a reoccurring nightmare. I don't mean to sound like AF are whiners, but after a while it gets ridiculous. We got hit with a nuke fallback mission right before I moved back to the US and it was a nightmare.

re: #68 jcm

The Majority in Congress doesn't think missile defense works either.

*spit*

You know, if stupid were a valuable commodity congress could pay the national debt in about fifteen minutes. Of all the nuclear powers the US is the only one that DOESN'T have some kind of weapons modernization program. If those idiots don't wake up REAL SOON and realize what that means then someday the rest of us are going to wake up in a country that is a SECOND RATE nuclear power. Not a position I want to be in!

re: #73 Occasional Reader

Okay, but that Caribou is not the Peru one I'm thinking of... don't know if that's what you meant to say. It was an AeroPeru 767, in 1996 or '97.

No, no the Peru was the one your thinking of.

The Caribou is another instance of not checking the bird out. Both ground crew and flight crew should have checked the elevators. Then the flight crew at the taxiway just before pulling onto the active should have "stirred the stick" operated the controls in all axis to insure they worked.

re: #57 ratherdashing

Same here, I was in SAC at Carswell AFB, Ft Worth and I guarded the nuclear weapons storage area and the alert area. I am proud to say we had very very tight security, nothing moved without tons of authorization from all kinds of people.
we were in fear of the dreaded ORI that could happen at any time. things must have gotten extremely lax.
Heads must roll.

re: #39 CIA Reject

I'll say- some of the finest folks I've ever known are the military people I met who worked in that area. I can't imagine THEM allowing anything even remotely like this to happen!

It was still about that in the 90s. We also got a lot of conflicting mission parameters. But, consider who was in overall command.

Inspectors watched as a security forces airman played video games on his cell phone while standing guard at a “restricted area perimeter,” the DTRA report said. Meanwhile, another airman nearby was “unaware of her duties and responsibilities” during the exercise.

Here are a couple of young Airmen that would be doing the shittiest details possible; 21 hours a day, seven days a week for three months, plus lose a couple of stripes, if this was my base and I had anything to say about their punishments! Their supervisors need to lose a stripe or two each, as well! Accountability and responsibility. Where the hell was it in this exercise/inspection on the part of the base? The base commander and the wing commander are probably toast by now, I'd bet $$$.

Don't fu*k with nukes!

re: #75 usaf_1980_2004

Like we used to say: you can't spell stupid without SP. . . .

Not real thrilled with that perception. I was qualified for nearly anything I could have chosen, but took SP because I had an interest in police work.

re: #80 jcm

Yet another f***-up with the AeroPeru crash; the pilot knew he was in trouble, and kept asking the Lima control tower to verify his altitude. They kept assuring him that he was at umpty-ump thousand feet. The thing was... the radar at the Lima tower at that time was UNABLE to accurately read altitude, and the system in fact just was taking the signal from the plane's own transponder and giving it to the tower staff. So they were reassuring the pilot with the same garbage info he was getting from his own computer. Really tragic. A couple hundred people died.

re: #25 The Shadow Do

I remember when SAC was the model for military effectiveness, and respected. Clean house now.

Scheduled Air Crashes.

re: #75 usaf_1980_2004

Like we used to say: you can't spell stupid without SP. . . .

And you can't spell wimp with out an MP.

re: #84 Mars Needs Neocons

re: #81 cybermonk

too cool. Three former SP's at LGF.

re: #82 Mars Needs Neocons

It was still about that in the 90s. We also got a lot of conflicting mission parameters. But, consider who was in overall command.

As Shakespeare said in Julius Caesar: "The evil that men do lives after them..."

/I guess the stupid as well...

re: #58 Occasional Reader

In at least two of the civilian airliner cases I know of, there was nothing "complex" about the cause of the crash. Boeing 767s, one case in India, one in Peru. In both cases, the cleaning crews had forgotten to remove the tape they place over the pitot tubes when they wash the plane. On the next flight (in both cases, at night), the tubes were therefore relaying bad data in terms of air pressure/altitude; the pilots thought they were maintaining altitude, when in fact they were descending. The result: "Controlled flight into terrain", as they delicately put it. Everybody died.

That's an example of an entirely avoidable situation with proper procedures. Since I already suspect that commercial airline pilots may not do pre-flight visual inspections by walking around the aircraft, then the responsibity must be appropriated to someone to go through a post-maintenance procedure certifying the flight worthiness of the aircraft after that maintenance.

In this case the blame will fall upon whoever left the pitot tubes covered, but anyone knows that proper safety of commercial passenger carrier operations has to be backed by redundancy of procedures. Any one person can make a mistake sooner or later, and just one could be fatal. The chance of two people (both in positions of critical responsibility) making the exact same mistake with carefully crafted procedures is vanishgly small.

In the case of the pitot tubes a very easy fix could have been available: rather than taping the pitot tubes, part of the maintenance procedure should be using soft rubber plugs to block them, with the plugs themselves securely attached to a strong light cable. At the other end of the cable should be large fluorescent orange plastic tags, so that it would be almost impossible to overlook this mistake.

re: #84 Mars Needs Neocons

Not real thrilled with that perception. I was qualified for nearly anything I could have chosen, but took SP because I had an interest in police work.

It was an SP who told me that joke.

re: #88 ratherdashing

re: #81 cybermonk

too cool. Three former SP's at LGF.

Now all we need is Chuck Norris, George Carlin, and Sinbad.

Actually only one of those is even vaguely conservative now I think, not a good average. Forget I mentioned it.

re: #25 The Shadow Do

I remember when SAC was the model for military effectiveness, and respected. Clean house now.

Sac hasn't been SAC since the reshaping of all AF commands in the early '90s. SAC and TAC became a unified Air Combat Command, or ACC. This was during Gen Merrill "Skeletor" McPeak's reign of stupidity as AF CoS, IIRC. I+Oh, and he is now Obama's campaign manage, and likely to be the SecDef in an Obama regime! NOOOO!

Stand by for the Air Force to start whinging about how they are stretched too thin supporting conventioal ops, and how they never much liked the Close Air Support mission anyway. Fighter-to-fighter and Nukes are their chosen hobbies, while AMC is how they pay the bills. Supporting ground troops has always been an albatross to them, because that means they have to cooperate.
See the USAF/Army/Congress debacle over the A-10 for details.

re: #89 CIA Reject

As Shakespeare said in Julius Caesar: "The evil that men do lives after them..."

/I guess the stupid as well...

The incompetent pres and his personal appointees did everything they could to destroy the AF and I'm sure the rest of the military as well.

re: #87 JeremyR

And you can't spell wimp with out an MP.

Wow I'm going to have to tell that to a couple Marine buds of mine that were MP's each over 6'5" and over 230 lbs. I'm going to stand back first seeing as I am 5'8" and only 154 lbs.

re: #91 usaf_1980_2004

It was an SP who told me that joke.

I know, I had the same joke told. Just hated the generalization.

re: #93 6pat6

Sac hasn't been SAC since the reshaping of all AF commands in the early '90s. SAC and TAC became a unified Air Combat Command, or ACC. This was during Gen Merrill "Skeletor" McPeak's reign of stupidity as AF CoS, IIRC. I+Oh, and he is now Obama's campaign manage, and likely to be the SecDef in an Obama regime! NOOOO!

McFreak was Clintons weapon of mass destruction.

re: #96 BBev

Wow I'm going to have to tell that to a couple Marine buds of mine that were MP's each over 6'5" and over 230 lbs. I'm going to stand back first seeing as I am 5'8" and only 154 lbs.

Just take Stephen Wright's advice: "Before you insult somebody just take the time to walk a mile in his shoes. That way when you do insult him you'll be a mile away, and you'll have his shoes."

re: #99 CIA Reject

Just take Stephen Wright's advice: "Before you insult somebody just take the time to walk a mile in his shoes. That way when you do insult him you'll be a mile away, and you'll have his shoes."

That is very good advice. and funny

re: #99 CIA Reject

Wife and I saw him last week at the Orleans in Vegas.

Great show.

Lousy casino. Horrible parking.

/not holding it against Wright

re: #100 BBev

That is very good advice. and funny

Yes, I've always enjoyed Mr. Wright's slightly skewed view of the world- it comes in handy at times!

re: #101 lobo91

Wife and I saw him last week at the Orleans in Vegas.

Great show.

Lousy casino. Horrible parking.

/not holding it against Wright

In Vegas you say? Now THAT must've been a show!

re: #103 CIA Reject

We spent 5 nights there. Gazillions of Hilton points are one good thing about being TDY most of the time.

Saw Steven Wright Friday night...Phantom and Spamalot both on Saturday night...Wayne Brady Sunday night.

Oh, and did the Richard Petty Driving Experience at the Speedway Sunday afternoon.

/need another vacation to rest

Do we really need an Air Force?

Get rid of them. Their duties can easily be taken over by the other existing branches of the armed services.

The 5th Bomb Wing at Minot Air Force Base, N.D., has failed its much-anticipated defense nuclear surety inspection, according to a Defense Threat Reduction Agency report.

When I was on active duty in ballistic missile submarines we went through many DNSI's. It was the easiest of the nuclear inspections that we had to do.

How the hell do you fail a DNSI?

Obvious incompetence.

+Photi

As for Gen. McPeak

...over the years he has criticized Israel for failing to withdraw to the 1967 borders and charged American Jews were preventing American pressure that would lead to a Mideast peace agreement.

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

re: #88 ratherdashing

I was at Carswell, 1969-70

I'm not surprised the AF has sunk this low....we have too many CEO's that are wearing AF uniforms. What the AF needs is cigar-chewing, whisky-drinking SOB like Lt. General Curtis LeMay.

the entire US military needs revamping

rules of engagement ?
WTF ?

see a threat, shoot
take fire, shoot

how hard can that be

why must servicemen ask for authority
don't we train them enough to make that decision all on their own ?

no, we train them in sensitivity, sexual harrassment, proper koran treatment
not killing, like we should be
that's what they are for

I even wonder why we call it the Air Force
why not the air delivery service
or something pussified

and Army ?
why don't we call them the Green-clothing branch
Navy can be called the blue-clothing branch

why must the names sound so....militaristic
why, we've outlawed Indian mascot names
why not outlaw offensive names in our military

call them "the service branches" from now on
and the "Pentagon"
eeewww, sounds too much like the Octagon used in cage fighting and how brutal and un-pc is that ?

let's call "the Pentagon"......"the building of peace strategy"

Strategic Air Command never had such problems.

I'm with Maximu§, bring back Curtis LeMay.

The Strategic Air Command motto was

Peace Is Our Profession
(bombing is just a hobby)

re: #109 Maximu§

I'm not surprised the AF has sunk this low....we have too many CEO's that are wearing AF uniforms. What the AF needs is cigar-chewing, whisky-drinking SOB like Lt. General Curtis LeMay.

LeMay was a General (four star), not a Lt. General (three star). He was however still an SOB and we could sure use more like him.

re: #109 Maximu§

I'm not surprised the AF has sunk this low....we have too many CEO's that are wearing AF uniforms. What the AF needs is cigar-chewing, whisky-drinking SOB like Lt. General Curtis LeMay.

How right you are! Of course, in today's AF, LeMay would be sent to counseling for his drinking and anger management problems.

I do not think it is irrelevant that -- since President Clinton opened all cockpit jobs to females (something GWB never had the cojones to repeal) -- the USAF has easily become the most feminized branch of the military.

Here in San Antonio, Randolph AFB has two female general commanders and one female colonel flying wing commander -- and not a single one of them chews on cigars, I can assure you! ;-)

There is no great military power in history (go back as far as you want to go) that had female commanders.

For that matter, get women out of the barracks, off of our aircraft carriers, and other combat ships and out of our military academies, as well.

Today, our military is obsessed with sexual harassment prevention. There is an old fashioned way to fix that problem: get the females their own barracks and get them off the combat ships and out of the combat aircrews.

From reading these comments I see that some here think SAC is still in business.

The Air Force was reorganized right after the first Gulf War and SAC, TAC, and MAC were all obliterated. The B-52s belong to Air Combat Command.

"In my estimation, it's only a matter of time before one of those blasted things goes off "by accident" somewhere in the world. The fallibility of man, Murphy's Law and such make it almost certain."

Well, realistically that would be like "accidentally" bench-pressing 300 pounds. Not many can do it, and those who can pretty much just don't do it by accident. Security may have gotten lax, but there's still elaborate, built-in protocols that have to be followed in order to detonate one of those things. Well, the ones our military builds, anyway. Hey, it wouldn't be a product of government if it wasn't elaborate, complicated and hard to do, right?

re: #111 Adrenalyn

Branches? No...let's call them "teams". You know, the blue team is sort of like the rowing team, while the green team is sort of the target-shooting team. They can have contests against other countries' teams to see who wins and stuff. "Contest" sounds ever so much more kindly than "war".

gunjam, your ideas of women in the military prove that you are a relic from the past.

19.6 percent of the Air Force is female and the service could not function without them.

Thank you, Secretary Gates.

re: #115 gunjam

There is no great military power in history (go back as far as you want to go) that had female commanders.

Boudica would probably argue that point before she emasculated you and put your head on a pike.

re: #116 1dogfoodzip9

From reading these comments I see that some here think SAC is still in business.

The Air Force was reorganized right after the first Gulf War and SAC, TAC, and MAC were all obliterated. The B-52s belong to Air Combat Command.

Thank you! Your clarification was much needed.

I have to believe that the primary reason that the AF became lax about nukes is because they are no longer under the control of SAC.

Gates didn't suffer slackers in high places back when he was president of Texas A&M, either. It was a harbinger of things to come.

One may speculate that he didn't have much use for the breed when he headed the CIA, but of course we don't get to read about that part in the papers.

Most criticisms of Bush have been off the mark, but he has flinched, too often, from making hard decisions about when it's time for a loyal incompetent to go rack up some quality time with their family. Rumsfeld's departure was late in the day.

Incompetence is relative. A good man may be grossly inadequate when he's two levels above his Peter Principle ceiling. It's hard to can good men who are doing bad jobs. But the president has to rise to the occasion.

re: #119 1dogfoodzip9

gunjam, your ideas of women in the military prove that you are a relic from the past.

19.6 percent of the Air Force is female and the service could not function without them.

Re-read my post: I didn't say females had NO role in the military. However, if you think we are better off in our current situation, where they are 20% of the active duty force, I'd like to hear you explain it.

I am fairly sure that the Chinese -- our next most likely adversary -- has a much more male-dominated military than we do.

Call me a relic, if you prefer: four thousand years of military history is on my side.

re: #117 dan

The problem is that some fine day, one of those planes carrying nukes they don't even know about will have another bit of bad luck, and go down over terrain that the good guys don't get to first.

You absolutely do not take chances with this stuff. Don't let the chain of mishaps get started, and it won't mushroom on you.

So to speak.

re: #124 gunjam

I am fairly sure that the Chinese -- our next most likely adversary -- has a much more male-dominated military than we do.

Good bet, as they have so few women.

As to the proper role of women in the military ... never having served, I dunno, but certainly Bubba went waaay too far, probably with the idea of destroying the military anyway.

re: #121 Wendya

Boudica would probably argue that point before she emasculated you and put your head on a pike.

A. She was a sovereign (queen), not a commander who came up through the ranks, and

B. She is so exceptional as to prove my point.

re: #126 itellu3times

Good bet, as they have so few women.

True, but, also a good bet they also have studied military history.

... but certainly Bubba went waaay too far, probably with the idea of destroying the military anyway.

You are an honest man.

Strategic Air Command had the drill down pat. With the aircraft constantly going on and coming off alert the handling of nuclear weapons was routine, yet was still taken very seriously. Check lists were everywhere and everyone had them memorized, even so you still had to have your checklist. Inspections were no notice and were an absolute bitch with every bit of paperwork checked.

Now we don't have bombers standing alert with nuclear weapons and we no longer have hundreds of bombers lining our ramps. Everything's changed from the old days and the system for handling the nukes is evidently broken. Now it looks like the handling of nuclear weapons is so rare that no one knows what to do when it is called for.

Under the old Strategic Air Command systems these recent incidents never could have happened.

Anybody seriously want to challenge my position that the AF is the most feminized branch?

Anybody want to make the case that our country is BETTER off because our AF is 20% female?

This is why the Air Force has:

- "fitness centers," and not gyms,

-"dining halls," and not chow halls, and

-co-ed "dorms," and not (sexually segregated) barracks

This is why Air Force basic training is (physically) only a shadow of what it was 30 years ago.

This is why men, like my son, who value a male military culture, go into the Army Infantry (or, the SEALs, or Special Forces, etc.)

Anyone notice that the ELITE combat units are all male?

Explain to me why no one wants women playing in the NFL, but we want women in combat?

Michael Savage has well said: Liberalism is a mental disorder.

As the heads of the FBI and CIA and NSA should have been sacked on 9/12/2001.

Unless there is fear for the career inertia will steer.

re: #129 1dogfoodzip9

Strategic Air Command had the drill down pat. With the aircraft constantly going on and coming off alert the handling of nuclear weapons was routine, yet was still taken very seriously. Check lists were everywhere and everyone had them memorized, even so you still had to have your checklist. Inspections were no notice and were an absolute bitch with every bit of paperwork checked.

Now we don't have bombers standing alert with nuclear weapons and we no longer have hundreds of bombers lining our ramps. Everything's changed from the old days and the system for handling the nukes is evidently broken. Now it looks like the handling of nuclear weapons is so rare that no one knows what to do when it is called for.

Under the old Strategic Air Command systems these recent incidents never could have happened.

Bingo!

re: #131 profitsbeard

As the heads of the FBI and CIA and NSA should have been sacked on 9/12/2001.

Amen -- as well as the Air Force Chief of Staff, in my view.

In my experience in the Air Force the ratio of incompetent females when compared to incompetent males is probably lower. In other words there are far less complete screw-ups that are female.

I have no tolerance for people that are incompetent but I do not base it on race, gender, or religion. Just fill the slots with qualified people so that the mission gets done.

Gunjam,

You know nothing of Air Force basic training today. The physical requirements to graduate are now the same as the Army. Additionally Air Force recruits are required to carry M-16s all during basic training.

I'm going nite nite now in my Air Force jammies with the feet in them.

re: #133 ploome hineni

..when does Gates tackle State?

about time some of those people got fired

Gates is Defense Department.

I think this is old news. I suspect it just Anti-war politics designed to help Obama.

The MSM covered the incident to a year ago and now that the danger has passed there will be more investigations into all aspects of our military arsenals...

All to the delight of Anti-war Obama.

Here is what John, The Armorer at Castle Argghhh! said:

Again, emphasis mine. Now the initial reporting was histrionic. We spent *decades* with aircraft overhead carrying nukes. That wasn't the story - though that seemed how it got spun. The story is that weapons were loaded that weren't supposed to be - and that no one noticed (or at least reported that they noticed) for over a day.

That is simply mind-boggling if you grew up in the nuke business when I did. There is a *serious* service culture problem represented in this story. One I'm sure the Air Force is working feverishly to fix. Keep you eyes on the ball, gents. Or in this case - the bombs.

Simply amazing. -the Armorer

See: Castle Argghhh's comments

Here's some interesting info related to nuclear waste, etc:

WMD disarmament facts & figures:
[Link: www.sgpproject.org...]

Since 1948, the USSR has manufactured in excess of 600 metric tons of weapons-grade plutonium and highly-enriched uranium.

Copy the following Lat/Lon coordinates into Google Earth:
55.713022, 60.847900

You're now looking down at a portion of Mayak, the USSR's main producer of plutonium. It is reputed to be the most contaminated location on Earth.

Mayak's history is described here: [Link: www.globalsecurity.org...]
[Link: www.senate.gov...]

At the end of the Cold War, Russia didn't have the money to dismantle and store their own radioactive materials removed from the thousands upon thousands of tactical nuclear weapons that they had placed in hundreds of locations throughout their country.

Therefore this recently-built storage complex (since 1999) located at Mayak was mainly financed with close to $100 million from the US Department of Defense, as part of its Cooperative Threat Reduction (CTR) Program.

This particular complex at Mayak was designed as a permanent storage area for the radioactive materials from 6,250 dismantled tactical nuclear warheads, with future expansion capabilities in the planning stage to double that capacity.

More, on Mayak's history:

Mayak, also known as Chelyabinsk-40 or the Kyshtym complex, is best known to the outside world as the site of a disastrous explosion in 1957, only recently acknowledged by Soviet/Russian officialdom.The tanks were entirely immersed in, and cooled by, water, but the monitoring system was defective.The system failed in one of the tanks and the waste began to dry out. On September 29, 1957, that tank exploded with a force equivalent to 70-100 tons of TNT. 70 or 80 metric tons of waste containing some 20 million curies of radioactivity was ejected -- about one-fourth the amount released in the 1986 Chernobyl accident.

About 90 percent of the radioactivity fell out immediately around the vessel.The rest formed a kilometer-high radioactive cloud that was carried through Chelyabinsk, Sverdlovsk, and Tumen provinces.

There were 217 towns and villages with a combined population of 270,000 people in the area, that was contaminated to greater than 0.1 curies of strontium 90 per square kilometer.By comparison, the total strontium 90 fallout at this latitude from past atmospheric tests is 0.08 curies per square kilometer.Virtually all water supply sources in the area were contaminated.

Evacuation of the most highly contaminated areas, where 1,100 people lived, was not completed until 10 days after the accident. Other areas were evacuated a year later, after the population had consumed radioactive food. In the years following the accident, 515 square miles of land was plowed under or removed from agricultural use; all except 80 square kilometers was returned to use by 1978.

About 10,000 people lived in the 1,000-square-kilometer area contaminated with more than two curies of strontium 90 per square kilometer.One-fifth of these people eventually showed a reduction of leukocytes in their blood. There are no records of deaths caused by the accident.

This accident is only part of Chelyabinsk-40's deadly legacy, because there was no management of radioactive waste at all before September 1951: for years the high-level nuclear waste was simply discharged directly into the Techa River.And over the years, workers at the complex have been exposed to astonishing levels of radiation.

During 1949, the first full year of operation, workers at A Reactor received an average dose of 93.6 rem -- three times the standards then set by the ministry, where were too high to begin with: about 30 rem per year. (Standards for nuclear workers in Russia, as in the United States, are now about 5 rem per year, although they are about the be lowered in the United States to 2 rem.)Workers were exposed to an average of 113.3 rem in 1951, and a small percentage received more than 400 rem annually during this early period.

In 1951, radioactivity carried by the Techa River from Chelyabinsk-40 was found in the Arctic Ocean -- although 99 percent of the radioactive material was deposited within the first 35 kilometers downstream.This discovery prompted a change in dumping policy: The Techa and its floodlands were excluded from human use, some inhabitants were evacuated, and others were supplied with water from other sources.

Reservoirs were created to keep water from flowing out of the most contaminated areas, and plant wastes were discharged into Karachay Lake, which has no outlet, instead of into the river.The lake, actually a bog, eventually accumulated 120 million curies of the long-lived radionuclides cesium 137 and strontium 90.By comparison, the Chernobyl accident released one million curies of cesium 137 and 220,000 curies of strontium 90.

In 1967, wind dispersed radioactivity from the lake, contaminating about 1,8000 square kilometers.Today, radioactivity in the ground water has migrated two to three kilometers from the lake.A person standing on the lake shore near the area where wastes are discharged from the plant would receive about 600 roentgens of radiation, a lethal dose, in just one hour.

It seems nothing short of miraculous that there has not yet been an unintended nuclear weapon detonation incident.

Nukes are so dangerous, so powerful that development, maintenance, enforcement and continuous audit of systems for their control, tracking and handling should be on the agenda of the top leaders of every military branch.

BRING BACK SAC!

*Strategic Air Command

Gates is doing the right thing. People are not drafted to serve as AFCoS or SecAF, they volunteer for it, lust for it, in fact. It is well-understood, part of the deal, that if someone picked for one of these jobs should happen to drop the ball, heads must roll. And there is no doubt at all that someone has dropped the ball for a long time in this case.

This is a system-wide problem, many years in the making, but real leadership could have arrested the trend at any time.

If a general could not get support from higher-ups for a crackdown on nuclear security, a few judicious leaks to the media and congress would build a big enough fire under them to get results from the most complacent bureacrat. What reporter or congresscritter wouldn't sell his grandmother for the chance to tell the public that nuclear security was going down the crapper?

re: #50 secsailor

The government always does such a great job at managing every it touches. I think we should put them in charge of our health care!

NOT!

I forget who said it (brain fart!), but put the word "public" in front of a word and see if it improves it at all:
Public toilets - NO
Public schools - NO
Public housing - NO
Public health care - care to make a wager?

(Substitute "government" for "public" if you wish; the results are the same. And before some wag comes along and says "public nudity" is a positive, go to zombies' (all hail the undead that walks amongst the moonbats so you don't have to!) site, look around and get back to me.)

re: #74 lobo91

I used to be a 462X0 (aircraft armament). Also a TODO (tech order distribution officer). Manuals were checked against a list of required manuals and supplements. Not having all current and required data was a big writeup and could get you failed on an inspection. Non-use of checklists was a big no-no. Cause for decertification and retraining of munition load teams.

Two man policy was very well enforced when I was in SAC. Of course, I did retire late 80's.

re: #81 cybermonk

I was 28 MMS at Carswell in 66.

This is what happens when fighter jocks take command of strategic forces. I spent most of my 12 years in SAC (80 to 93) and loved every day I spent around the B-52 and KC-135. As a firefighter, I had access to anywhere I wanted/needed to go and the WSA was no exception. Under SAC, everything was tight and there were only a couple of screw ups on the security side (I participated in one, but that's a war story for another thread).

When SAC changed to ACC, I refused to change my command patch on my fatigues. I knew I was leaving soon. What could they do; kick me out? :) Those were the saddest days of my time in.