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Mutilating Female Children in Norway

Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 8:32:02 pm PDT

Sheer evil surfaces in Norway—but to Reuters it might be just a “rite of passage.”

After all, who are we to judge?

OSLO (Reuters) - Police in Norway have arrested a Gambian-born man and charged him and his wife with subjecting five of their six daughters to genital mutilation, officials said on Friday.

The practice, also known as female circumcision, is outlawed in Norway and arouses horror among many people in the West but is a rite of passage for young women in many countries, predominantly in Africa.

The youngest of the five mutilated girls, all born in Norway, is five years old, police officials said. The others are aged seven, 10, 13 and 14 and live in Gambia, national broadcaster NRK reported.

Police officer Hanne Kristin Rohde, head of the violent crime and vice section of the Oslo police, said on Norwegian commercial television TV 2 that the father — a naturalized Norwegian citizen along with his wife — was taken into custody on Friday.

“Norwegian police have charged this couple of Gambian background for breaking the Norwegian law on genital mutilation — five of their six daughters are circumcised,” Rohde said.

The mother is pregnant with a seventh child and was deemed unfit to be held in jail. ...

U.N. agencies say an estimated 100 to 140 million women and girls worldwide have undergone genital mutilation, whose proponents say it promotes chastity before marriage and fidelity afterwards by reducing female sexual desire. Around 3 million a year are believed to be subjected to it.

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549 comments

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1 psyop  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:32:51pm

It was only a matter of time....

2 pat  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:33:07pm

Well, the Reuters males already had their dicks cut off. ....so?

3 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:34:45pm

re: #2 pat

Well, the Reuters males already had their dicks cut off. ....so?

Oh, no, you didn't!

4 pat  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:34:48pm

Asshole from Ethiopia did this in America a couple years ago. Got about 7 years. Not enough.

5 jaunte  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:35:10pm

Rite of passage for a five year old? WTF!
What kind of a diseased mind can create that thought?
John Archer, you are lower than pondscum.

6 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:35:14pm
The mother is pregnant with a seventh child and was deemed unfit to be held in jail.

I hope she's deemed unfit to keep this child if it's a girl.

7 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:35:31pm

I can't think of a more vile treatment to subject girls to. It's disgusting, and the most misogynistic practice ever conceived of by humans.

8 Sarge1984  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:35:59pm

"The mother is pregnant with a seventh child and was deemed unfit to be held in jail."

She should be deemed unfit to be a parent.

9 pat  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:36:02pm

re: #3 MandyManners

Oh, no, you didn't!

So....they meekly bow to their new Masters. But you knew that.

10 Bob in Breckenridge  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:36:03pm

Last sentence of the story is now edited correctly-

"The mother is pregnant with a seventh child and was deemed unfit to be held in jail a loving parent.

11 shoeless  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:36:04pm

did I miss something? Where did Reuters indicate that or infer that it was a rite of passage?

12 psyop  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:36:31pm

What will the reaction be when this comes the the U.S.?

Will we sit back and let our nations children be mutilated by their parents?

What would you do if you found out your neighbor did this to his 12 year old daughter? This is some sick shit. If you don't know what it entails, do a little research and ask yourself if this is okay in America....

13 US Navy Wife  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:36:45pm
Their youngest, age three, has not been subjected to the procedure


I guess her genitals aren't mature enough to be mutilated yet.

SICK, SICK practice.

14 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:36:59pm

re: #12 psyop

What will the reaction be when this comes the the U.S.?

Don't kid yourself- it's already here.

15 pat  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:37:06pm

Cut off his dick.

16 jaunte  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:37:14pm

re: #11 shoeless

Second sentence. It's just a cultural thing, and who is Reuters to judge.
////

17 The Other Les  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:37:17pm

And where was the vaunted Scandinavian welfare state (that the Donks want to replicate here) when the previous mutilations were happening?

18 razorbacker  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:37:17pm
When They Circumcised Boys, They Only Took Tips
"Norway Couple Charged for Circumcising Girls"--headline, Reuters, June 6

[Link: online.wsj.com...]

19 Sarge1984  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:37:25pm

re: #11 shoeless

Second paragraph...

20 joecitizen  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:37:47pm

re: #11 shoeless

did I miss something? Where did Reuters indicate that or infer that it was a rite of passage?

IN THE FREAKING ARTICLE FER CRISSAKES!

21 US Navy Wife  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:37:48pm

re: #11 shoeless

The practice, also known as female circumcision, is outlawed in Norway and arouses horror among many people in the West but is a rite of passage for young women in many countries, predominantly in Africa.

22 wolfie  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:38:14pm

re: #11 shoeless

did I miss something? Where did Reuters indicate that or infer that it was a rite of passage?

2nd paragraph

23 Bob in Breckenridge  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:38:17pm

re: #13 US Navy Wife

I guess her genitals aren't mature enough to be mutilated yet.

SICK, SICK practice SAVAGES.

Fixed another one.

/I need a raise!

24 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:38:43pm

So much for the enlightened ways of Europe...was this what Barack was talking about when he said I couldn't drive my SUV, couldn't eat bratwurst and keep my house at 72 degrees?

25 Mars Needs Neocons  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:38:57pm

re: #11 shoeless

did I miss something? Where did Reuters indicate that or infer that it was a rite of passage?

They didn't, Charles was merely making a sarcastic observation. Or did you know that already?

26 shoeless  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:39:02pm

re: #16 jaunte

I think that stating that Reuters endorses it a a Rite of Passage is a bit of a stretch...

27 US Navy Wife  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:39:24pm

re: #23 Bob in Breckenridge

Here's a quarter.

28 Karridine  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:39:32pm
"WHAT? Cruelty? You think ME using THIS RAZORBLADE is CRUELTY? ... YOU are the ignorant one! Off with you, leave our family to our personal business, ignore her screams!"
29 The Other Les  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:39:35pm

re: #12 psyop

What will the reaction be when this comes the the U.S.?

Will we sit back and let our nations children be mutilated by their parents?

What would you do if you found out your neighbor did this to his 12 year old daughter? This is some sick shit. If you don't know what it entails, do a little research and ask yourself if this is okay in America....

Call the police or county sheriff's office.

30 pat  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:39:44pm

re: #12 psyop

What will the reaction be when this comes the the U.S.?

Will we sit back and let our nations children be mutilated by their parents?

What would you do if you found out your neighbor did this to his 12 year old daughter? This is some sick shit. If you don't know what it entails, do a little research and ask yourself if this is okay in America....

See my post above. And there is fear that FGM and arranged marriages are practiced in Michigan, even tho the Shiite normally do not engage in FGM. Why? Because Muslims all over the world seem determined to force host countries in to abandoning civilized law.

31 Mars Needs Neocons  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:39:54pm

re: #16 jaunte

Second sentence. It's just a cultural thing, and who is Reuters to judge.
////

Oops, missed the actual quote the first time through.

32 psyop  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:40:10pm

re: #14 Sharmuta

Don't kid yourself- it's already here.

I would not be surprised at all. There are already honor killing and such. It makes me sad to think that the general public is either wholly uniformed or criminally apathetic.

If I walked by someones house, and I saw that through the window, I would call the police for child abuse, torture, sexual abuse.... the list goes on...

Despicable.... I look at my own daughter and cannot even imagine the vile state of mind you must posses to think that this kind of thing is okay.

33 Bob in Breckenridge  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:40:18pm

re: #27 US Navy Wife

Here's a quarter.

Excellent! Doubled my salary! Thanks!

34 wolfie  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:40:28pm

re: #26 shoeless

I think that stating that Reuters endorses it a a Rite of Passage is a bit of a stretch...

2nd paragraph...READ IT

35 Slumbering Behemoth  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:40:38pm

re: #11 shoeless

did I miss something? Where did Reuters indicate that or infer that it was a rite of passage?

Here:

The practice, also known as female circumcision, is outlawed in Norway and arouses horror among many people in the West but is a rite of passage for young women in many countries, predominantly in Africa.

RIF

36 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:40:46pm

FGM is the most misogynistic practice in the world. You have to truly hate women to want to deny them pleasure. And to gain your own pleasure while denying your partner is about as selfish as it can get. It's hateful, deprived, cruel... truly sick on all counts.

37 jaunte  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:41:01pm

re: #26 shoeless

I think Reuters deserves criticism for remaining completely neutral in the face of an abominable act, and even offering the excuse, to those looking for one, that it's accepted cultural practice in some places.

38 Roentgen  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:41:03pm

subjecting five of their six daughters to genital mutilation, officials said on Friday.

How would the Lame Stream Media handle it if these terrible things had been committed by someone who had attributes that might be handily classified as WASP?

39 shoeless  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:42:12pm

re: #34 wolfie

I did read it, and I don't think that Reuters is stating it as an opinion... they didn't explicitly condemn it, which they should have... but they didn't endorse it.

40 Bob in Breckenridge  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:42:19pm

re: #36 Sharmuta

FGM is the most misogynistic practice in the world. You have to truly hate women to want to deny them pleasure. And to gain your own pleasure while denying your partner is about as selfish as it can get. It's hateful, deprived, cruel... truly sick on all counts.

That's Islam in a nutshell.

41 joecitizen  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:42:19pm

re: #36 Sharmuta

FGM is the most misogynistic practice in the world. You have to truly hate women to want to deny them pleasure. And to gain your own pleasure while denying your partner is about as selfish as it can get. It's hateful, deprived, cruel... truly sick on all counts.

wish I coulda dinged ya all night long for that one Shar...

42 pat  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:42:27pm

Mothers are the problem. Beaten wimps, that have no sense. This must stop with mom. But she has never known sex to be anything but torture.

43 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:42:46pm

Let's try some examples to illustrate the point...pay attention:

In America, we seize 400 kids when we have reason to believe that perhaps less than 7 underage girls are having sex with men in a community, as well we should...but we took all the kids just to be sure/safe.

In Norway, they allow people to chop up women and young girls like they are livestock and can't bring their neutered, cowardly sorry selves to admit that what is going on is wrong.

Sure, let's all live the the Norwegians.

44 shoeless  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:42:48pm

re: #37 jaunte

I won't disagree with that.

45 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:43:16pm

Now Reuters, isn't using the term "mutilation" a tad judgmental?

/switching moral relativism to "ludicrous" mode

46 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:43:17pm

Reuters...you had me at 'but'. Worthless.

47 shoeless  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:44:12pm

re: #45 Dar ul Harb

That's a good point too... someone endorsing the practice would hardly call it mutilation...

48 Charles  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:44:15pm

re: #39 shoeless

I did read it, and I don't think that Reuters is stating it as an opinion... they didn't explicitly condemn it, which they should have... but they didn't endorse it.

And I didn't say they endorsed it. For Pete's sake.

49 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:44:17pm

So is it OUTLAWED in Norway, or is it *wink wink* outlawed in Norway?

50 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:44:20pm

If one stops to think of the horrors going on right this minute in every nation, every community, it is devastating. There are a lot of sick bastards out there who rape, torture, mutilate, and kill children on a daily basis. Either for kicks or religion. Whenever I hear something like this, it makes me think of the kids out there now, that none of us can get to to save, but will hear about on the news. Its about the most depressing and horrific thing you can realize.
I know we don't promote violence here, (and I can fantasize quietly about a TRULY just punishment) but, I do think the death penalty should be meted out to all who are guilty of things like this, with children.

51 The Other Les  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:44:24pm

Zed's home.

[Link: www.daybydaycartoon.com...]

52 Charles  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:45:19pm

re: #11 shoeless

did I miss something? Where did Reuters indicate that or infer that it was a rite of passage?

Yes, you missed something. For example, the words in the article.

53 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:45:23pm

So, would Barack Obama meet without precondition with these sick bastards?

Anyone want to put odds on that?

54 Purple Prose  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:45:29pm

Europe sure does assimilation well!

55 pegcity  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:45:41pm

Evil is not so bad, you just need to give it a chance.

56 Roentgen  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:45:52pm

re: #36 Sharmuta

FGM is the most misogynistic practice in the world. You have to truly hate women to want to deny them pleasure. And to gain your own pleasure while denying your partner is about as selfish as it can get. It's hateful, deprived, cruel... truly sick on all counts.


Sharmuta, as usual, is right. There is no reasonable social, religious, or cultural excuse for this cruelty.

57 Karridine  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:46:02pm

re: #39 shoeless

Shoeless, that 'endorsement' is implicit when Reuters states, without clarification or condemnation, "...but is a rite of passage for young women in many countries, predominantly in Africa..." without qualifying that it SOME FEW women, often FORCIBLY CAUGHT and CUT...

As is, the average reader accepts it as some kind of normative, normal, usual ordinary circumcision-rite-of-passage in Africa... hence the implicit endorsement.

58 shoeless  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:46:21pm

re: #48 Charles

Yikes! drew the wrath of the big man... :) Didn't mean to insult... just maybe didn't pick up on the sarcasm...

59 wolfie  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:46:35pm

re: #45 Dar ul Harb

Now Reuters, isn't using the term "mutilation" a tad judgmental?

/switching moral relativism to "ludicrous" mode

Yes. Glad to see they used that word.
I don't like the term "female circumcison," which implies that it's no different from male circumcision.

60 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:46:53pm

re: #53 brainwizard73

So, would Barack Obama meet without precondition with these sick bastards?

Anyone want to put odds on that?

Oh, oh, I will. I'll bet he'll meet them, preconditions aside.

/What do I win?

61 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:47:51pm

re: #42 pat

Mothers are the problem. Beaten wimps, that have no sense. This must stop with mom. But she has never known sex to be anything but torture.

The Koran is the problem. Mix that with a culture embedded of patriarchal savagery that forces it upon the women. I will give MANY women a pass in that messed up system. Those 'men'? are in for one hell of a judgement.

62 formercorpsman  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:47:52pm

re: #7 Sharmuta

Sharmuta, actually in some African countries, it is the female elders who actually promote the practice, and do the job.

But we can agree without any doubt whatsoever.

This is absolutely barbaric. It serves absolutely no purpose.

Barbaric to the core.

63 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:48:02pm

re: #58 shoeless

Yikes! drew the wrath of the big man... :) Didn't mean to insult... just maybe didn't pick up on the sarcasm...

Use caution, young padawan. Sarcasm is a way of life around here at times.

64 Bob in Breckenridge  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:48:12pm

re: #60 Honorary Yooper

Did you read my #63 on the previous thread?

65 psyop  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:48:47pm

re: #43 brainwizard73

Let's try some examples to illustrate the point...pay attention:

In America, we seize 400 kids when we have reason to believe that perhaps less than 7 underage girls are having sex with men in a community, as well we should...but we took all the kids just to be sure/safe.

In Norway, they allow people to chop up women and young girls like they are livestock and can't bring their neutered, cowardly sorry selves to admit that what is going on is wrong.

Sure, let's all live the the Norwegians.

That is only because the FLDS nominally resembles christianity. Of course society must be protected from all the horrible christians (/sarc). If someone were to do that to muslims, jews, sihks, or bhuddists, it would be considered a hate crime.

Sad, but true.

66 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:48:51pm

re: #64 Bob in Breckenridge

Did you read my #63 on the previous thread?

Yes, and I think I'll try for tickets. :-)

67 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:49:12pm
68 Purple Prose  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:49:42pm

It could be worse, though...

[Link: article.nationalreview.com...]

69 funky chicken  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:49:43pm

re: #42 pat

Mothers are the problem. Beaten wimps, that have no sense. This must stop with mom. But she has never known sex to be anything but torture.

And is pregnant with the 7th child. beyond horrifying

70 joecitizen  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:50:04pm

re: #67 MandyManners

[Link: www.reproductiverights.org...]

ty Mandy..

71 pat  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:50:15pm

BTW, the worst offenders are from black Muslim countries and Egypt. In Egypt it was recently re-legalized after 1000 years or so. Egypt also made it illegal to report on a neighbor who beats a child or wife.
/too much bother.

72 Cognito  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:50:32pm

I'm sure I'll get a great big LGF group hug for this, but here goes anyway:

To me the measure of the Reuters story is simply whether it's true. Is genital mutilation -- which is how the story describes the act -- mutilation indeed? I think so. Is it regarded with horror in the West? Pretty much universally. Is it regarded as a rite of passage in many countries in many countries, predominantly in Africa? I believe it is. Horrific as that may be.

That doesn't make it right, of course. It only makes it true.

Now everybody get in here close. Big family squeeze.

73 JeremyR  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:50:51pm

The mother is pregnant with a seventh child and was deemed unfit to be held in jail.

Too bad this wasn't in Texas. They'd have a true don blue case of potential child abuse if the baby was to be allowed to remain in the custody of the mother.

74 Bob in Breckenridge  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:50:57pm

re: #66 Honorary Yooper

Yes, and I think I'll try for tickets. :-)

I wonder if the rooftop seats across Waveland and Sheffield Avenues will be for sale.

75 Mars Needs Neocons  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:51:06pm

re: #65 psyop

That is only because the FLDS nominally resembles christianity. Of course society must be protected from all the horrible christians (/sarc). If someone were to do that to muslims, jews, sihks, or bhuddists, it would be considered a hate crime.

Sad, but true.

Unless you are LDS, then you view them as primitive, disgusting, throwbacks incapable of evolving to survive the modern world.

76 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:51:24pm

re: #62 formercorpsman

Sharmuta, actually in some African countries, it is the female elders who actually promote the practice, and do the job.

But we can agree without any doubt whatsoever.

This is absolutely barbaric. It serves absolutely no purpose.

Barbaric to the core.

I would bet they learned this 'rite of passage' at the tip of a sword, wielded by a brute savage patriarchal 'male'.

This could be almost a chicken or the egg argument, but I have a feeling that it began with the men who forced the women to do it. Then it became ingrained out of sick fear until it became 'accepted'.

77 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:51:59pm

re: #74 Bob in Breckenridge

I wonder if the rooftop seats across Waveland and Sheffield Avenues will be for sale.

Most likely. They can see the field from there.

78 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:52:04pm

re: #62 formercorpsman

I know it. But to think that misogyny is exclusively in the realm of men is to misunderstand misogyny. Women hate women too, and often times women want their fellow woman to be just as miserable as them. Some women have a hard time when I mention this, but it's true, and until women treat each other with respect, no matter how much respect we gain from men, misogyny will continue to be a burden on all women.

79 joecitizen  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:52:13pm

re: #72 Cognito

I'm sure I'll get a great big LGF group hug for this, but here goes anyway:

To me the measure of the Reuters story is simply whether it's true. Is genital mutilation -- which is how the story describes the act -- mutilation indeed? I think so. Is it regarded with horror in the West? Pretty much universally. Is it regarded as a rite of passage in many countries in many countries, predominantly in Africa? I believe it is. Horrific as that may be.

That doesn't make it right, of course. It only makes it true.

Now everybody get in here close. Big family squeeze.


tone is everything,cog...

80 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:52:18pm

re: #72 Cognito

I'm sure I'll get a great big LGF group hug for this, but here goes anyway:

To me the measure of the Reuters story is simply whether it's true. Is genital mutilation -- which is how the story describes the act -- mutilation indeed? I think so. Is it regarded with horror in the West? Pretty much universally. Is it regarded as a rite of passage in many countries in many countries, predominantly in Africa? I believe it is. Horrific as that may be.

That doesn't make it right, of course. It only makes it true.

Now everybody get in here close. Big family squeeze.

It is done as early as infancy in some cases. That is NOT a rite of passage. The reporter needs to do a bit of research.

81 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:52:27pm

re: #60 Honorary Yooper

Oh, oh, I will. I'll bet he'll meet them, preconditions aside.

/What do I win?

You have won the better of the two showcases!

First you'll get a trip to the President Obama Re-education camp in Sunny Gitmo...they've emptied out the jihadists and sent them home, and now you can stay there as long as you like until you figure out that President Obama really is your friend...

And you'll want something to read in your cell...um, room and during exercise time...that's right, you'll get a copy of "It Takes a Village" and "The Audacity of Hope". When you can recite them verbaitim, you will get extra waffles at lunch.

All this is yours because the Price was Too High.

82 Mars Needs Neocons  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:52:29pm

re: #65 psyop

That is only because the FLDS nominally resembles christianity. Of course society must be protected from all the horrible christians (/sarc). If someone were to do that to muslims, jews, sihks, or bhuddists, it would be considered a hate crime.

Sad, but true.

Oh wait I'm agreeing with you.

/just kidding, already knew that, just wanted to add on.

83 avspatti  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:52:29pm

re: #11 shoeless

See paragraph two.

84 psyop  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:52:35pm

re: #50 CapeCoddah


I know we don't promote violence here, (and I can fantasize quietly about a TRULY just punishment) but, I do think the death penalty should be meted out to all who are guilty of things like this, with children.

I would say that death would be an appropriate punishment.

Just because we are a free society does not mean you have the freedom to do whatever you want with no consequences. We have laws for a reason, and if you do not like the fact that MUTILATING your CHILDREN is against the law, please, ferschrissakes, do not move to this country.

85 wolfie  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:52:49pm

re: #65 psyop

That is only because the FLDS nominally resembles christianity. Of course society must be protected from all the horrible christians (/sarc). If someone were to do that to muslims, jews, sihks, or bhuddists, it would be considered a hate crime.

Sad, but true.

You're probably right, except I don't think they'd give Jews a pass at all.

86 Charles  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:53:26pm

re: #72 Cognito

I'm sure I'll get a great big LGF group hug for this, but here goes anyway:

To me the measure of the Reuters story is simply whether it's true. Is genital mutilation -- which is how the story describes the act -- mutilation indeed? I think so. Is it regarded with horror in the West? Pretty much universally. Is it regarded as a rite of passage in many countries in many countries, predominantly in Africa? I believe it is. Horrific as that may be.

That doesn't make it right, of course. It only makes it true.

Now everybody get in here close. Big family squeeze.

Right. Lovely. And while Reuters is blamelessly reporting the truth, little girls are being horribly mutilated.

But let's just dispassionately report "the truth," devoid of right or wrong, or even concern for the rights of children.

87 Mars Needs Neocons  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:53:46pm

re: #75 Mars Needs Neocons

Unless you are LDS, then you view them as primitive, disgusting, throwbacks incapable of evolving to survive the modern world.

Also a difference between christian/western religion and Islam. We disdain throwbacks and primitives in our society. They embrace and advance them.

88 Cognito  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:53:55pm

re: #79 joecitizen

Eh. I goes with what strikes meh.

89 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:54:02pm

I'm wondering if anyone might be able to tell me if the words, "bicker" and "squabble" are objective...

90 Bob in Breckenridge  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:54:20pm

re: #77 Honorary Yooper

Most likely. They can see the field from there.

Yeah, I know that. But I'm thinking this isn't baseball in the summer. This is Chicago just off the lake in the middle of winter- snow, ice, and drunks on roofs aren't a good combo.

91 shoeless  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:54:34pm

re: #72 Cognito

That is all i was trying to get across... they could have condemned it... that would have been better, but they weren't friendly to the practice either.

92 psyop  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:54:44pm

re: #75 Mars Needs Neocons

Yes, indeed. I wouldn't want to throw the good folks of your average LDS church under the bus by intimating they are of a mind with the FLDS.

93 formercorpsman  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:54:56pm

re: #76 Oh no...Sand People!

At the origin, we agree.

My only point, (no pun of course) is that females carry this on in their own culture.

Don't get me wrong.

This is wrong. It should not be tolerated, it is child abuse.

94 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:55:16pm

re: #84 psyop

Oh, I know death is adequate, believe me, Its the VIOLENT death I wont advocate, even though beating them to death barehanded comes to mind first.

95 formercorpsman  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:55:25pm

re: #78 Sharmuta

You made my point better than I could.

96 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:55:29pm

re: #84 psyop

I would say that death would be an appropriate punishment.

Just because we are a free society does not mean you have the freedom to do whatever you want with no consequences. We have laws for a reason, and if you do not like the fact that MUTILATING your CHILDREN is against the law, please, ferschrissakes, do not move to this country.

Death is too good for these people. I can name some things I'd like to see done to them, but they aren't exactly condoned by most people.

97 realwest  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:55:47pm

re: #48 Charles
and
re: #52 Charles

With all the spare time you have, do you think you could like, impose a literacy requirement on any newbies who want to register? I mean, I know shoeless isn't technically a newbie, but he/she is certainly acting like it: not reading your link and not reading what YOU said.
Just a suggestion!

98 psyop  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:56:09pm

re: #82 Mars Needs Neocons

Oh wait I'm agreeing with you.

/just kidding, already knew that, just wanted to add on.

LOL...

I figured as much... but it is good to have confirmation.

99 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:56:15pm

The truth of the matter is disturbing. People with this culture and system of values have no place in Western Society. This is how it's done in Somalia:

"The child, completely naked, is made to sit on a low stool. Several women take hold of her and open her legs wide. After separating her outer and inner lips, the operator, usually a woman experienced in this procedure, sits down facing the child. With her kitchen knife the operator first pierces and slices open the hood of the clitoris. Then she begins to cut it out. While another woman wipes off the blood with a rag, the operator digs with her sharp fingernail a hole the length of the clitoris to detach and pull out the organ. The little girl, held down by the women helpers, screams in extreme pain; but no one pays the slightest attention.The operator finishes this job by entirely pulling out the clitoris, cutting it to the bone with her knife. Her helpers again wipe off the spurting blood with a rag. The operator then removes the remaining flesh, digging with her finger to remove any remnant of the clitoris among the flowing blood. The neighbor women are then invited to plunge their fingers into the bloody hole to verify that every piece of the clitoris is removed."

[Link: www.middle-east-info.org...]

100 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:56:20pm

re: #65 psyop

I won't carry the water for the LDSers if they are doing what some have accused them of...if there are men having sex with underage girls they ought to be in jail. I do think it is interesting that from time to time we Americans will actually swoop in and grab kids we think are in danger, and many are in danger, so that often is a good thing.

What is incomprensible is that in Norway and other western European nations, there seems to be a "live and let live" attitude that ends up with bombs going off in trains, "youths" rioting, honor killings and girls having thier private parts mutilated.

To quote Timon in the Lion King "...and everyone is OK with this? Did I miss something here?"

101 razorbacker  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:56:20pm

The Muslim lady in such trouble in the Netherlands (I know, narrow it down), the one that acted in the movie that got the director/producer stabbed to death (I know, narrow it down) tells a chilling story about her FGM.

One of the reasons she's not so much pro-Islam anymore.

102 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:56:34pm

re: #96 Honorary Yooper

Thats EXACTLY what I mean!

103 Charles  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:56:41pm

Make no mistake -- this empty-headed moral vacuum is one big reason why this disgusting practice is now prevalent in countries like Norway.

104 Cognito  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:56:49pm

re: #86 Charles

Right. Lovely. And while Reuters is blamelessly reporting the truth, little girls are being horribly mutilated.

But let's just dispassionately report "the truth," devoid of right or wrong, or even concern for the rights of children.

There's nothing wrong with dispassion, I think, in a straight news story. And the truth is no mean goal. The story clearly calls the act 'genital mutilation,' which I believe is the truth.

105 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:56:54pm

re: #90 Bob in Breckenridge

Yeah, I know that. But I'm thinking this isn't baseball in the summer. This is Chicago just off the lake in the middle of winter- snow, ice, and drunks on roofs aren't a good combo.

I'd guess it would depend on the day. This will be on New Year's Day, so the chances of ice and snow on the ground are about 30% or so.

106 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:56:57pm

re: #75 Mars Needs Neocons

Unless you are LDS, then you view them as primitive, disgusting, throwbacks incapable of evolving to survive the modern world.

I must be reading you wrong. Right?

107 shoeless  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:57:18pm

re: #97 realwest


I read the link, I read what HE said, I just didn't see quite the same. Or do we need to be in lock-step when it comes to thought?

108 Mars Needs Neocons  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:57:22pm

re: #79 joecitizen

tone is everything,cog...

Don't totally agree with his statement, but appreciate the way he stated it. The rite of passage line is a throwaway to make something sound more acceptable than it is. It was established some time ago. I know when the lefties used to talk about it in the 80's and 90's when they wanted the US to intervene it was commonly called Genital Mutilation-not circumcision. There was a big difference between the way things were written about Islam then, compared to now. There were also usually graphic details and explanations about the lifelong scars and the accidents that frequently occurred.

So do I believe that "rite of passage" is accurate? I think it is at the least misleading.

109 joecitizen  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:57:52pm

re: #97 realwest

and
re: #52 Charles

With all the spare time you have, do you think you could like, impose a literacy requirement on any newbies who want to register? I mean, I know shoeless isn't technically a newbie, but he/she is certainly acting like it: not reading your link and not reading what YOU said.
Just a suggestion!


heh..next you'll be wanting a literacy requirement for voters...wait a minute,that's not a half bad idea...hmmm..

110 psyop  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:57:58pm

re: #85 wolfie

You're probably right, except I don't think they'd give Jews a pass at all.

You could probably make a reasonable case for that argument.

Jews get the shaft, no matter the country, no matter the generation, no matter the era in history.

God bless 'em.

111 Charles  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:58:42pm

This 'rite of passage' garbage is insulting to anyone who isn't living in the Dark Ages. Reuters should be ashamed of that kind of crap. It's sickening.

112 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:58:45pm
U.N. agencies say an estimated 100 to 140 million women and girls worldwide have undergone genital mutilation, whose proponents say it promotes chastity before marriage and fidelity afterwards by reducing female sexual desire. Around 3 million a year are believed to be subjected to it.

Yeah- way to go reuters! Instead of toeing the muslim misogynistic line, why not educate the readers on what FGM really is?! Why not research what this practice really does to women, such as the horrible medical side effects before and after birth, how it can lead to infant mortality, and how many girls DIE from this "rite". Yeah- real nuanced reporting. I think I'm going to be sick.

113 pat  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:58:52pm

BTW, in Egypt some Copts also practice this. Altho it is quickly disappearing from Coptic practice. Another factoit. Almost 50% 0f Egyptian parents report they have had their daughters treated. But only about half that number of girls say they have been.(school survey of 18 year olds) When allowed without that creepy imam, the women will cheat. Which is why the Government finds it necessary to further the practice.
Mohamed did NOT say to do this . He said a symbolic nick would suffice, to equate with the removal of the foreskin.

114 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:58:53pm

re: #99 Kreuzueber Halbmond

Barbaric is too nice a word to describe that.

115 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:58:57pm

re: #93 formercorpsman

We are on the same page. I know that a lot of the women carry this on, but out of curiosity I would love to know if it truly was the womans idea or the man's. I am leaning toward the man.

116 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:58:58pm

re: #99 Kreuzueber Halbmond

Geez, it is really going to be hard to hammer on petty politics on this thread.

Stuff like this makes me want to send Marine Force Recon to protect these girls.

117 Bob in Breckenridge  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:59:16pm

re: #99 Kreuzueber Halbmond

The truth of the matter is disturbing. People with this culture and system of values have no place in Western Society. This is how it's done in Somalia:

"The child, completely naked, is made to sit on a low stool. Several women take hold of her and open her legs wide. After separating her outer and inner lips, the operator, usually a woman experienced in this procedure, sits down facing the child. With her kitchen knife the operator first pierces and slices open the hood of the clitoris. Then she begins to cut it out. While another woman wipes off the blood with a rag, the operator digs with her sharp fingernail a hole the length of the clitoris to detach and pull out the organ. The little girl, held down by the women helpers, screams in extreme pain; but no one pays the slightest attention.The operator finishes this job by entirely pulling out the clitoris, cutting it to the bone with her knife. Her helpers again wipe off the spurting blood with a rag. The operator then removes the remaining flesh, digging with her finger to remove any remnant of the clitoris among the flowing blood. The neighbor women are then invited to plunge their fingers into the bloody hole to verify that every piece of the clitoris is removed."

[Link: www.middle-east-info.org...]

lIke I said- SAVAGES!

118 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:59:22pm

re: #84 psyop

We have laws for a reason, and if you do not like the fact that MUTILATING your CHILDREN is against the law, please, ferschrissakes, do not move to this country.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."

--attributed to Gen. Sir Charles Napier, British Commander-in Chief of India, on sati

119 swamprat  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:59:25pm

Cognito and Reuters sittin' inna tree.......

120 Mars Needs Neocons  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:59:29pm

re: #92 psyop

Yes, indeed. I wouldn't want to throw the good folks of your average LDS church under the bus by intimating they are of a mind with the FLDS.

Exactly, there is a lot of evolution in western religion. Islam - not so much.

121 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:59:35pm

re: #109 joecitizen

heh..next you'll be wanting a literacy requirement for voters...wait a minute,that's not a half bad idea...hmmm..

All I want is a requirement that the voters simply be with the living.

122 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:59:47pm

re: #104 Cognito

There's nothing wrong with dispassion, I think, in a straight news story.

Unless, of course, if it's something about Evil American Imperialism...

123 joecitizen  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 8:59:59pm

re: #104 Cognito

There's nothing wrong with dispassion, I think, in a straight news story. And the truth is no mean goal. The story clearly calls the act 'genital mutilation,' which I believe is the truth.


I think there is everything wrong with dispassion...always

124 Mars Needs Neocons  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:00:37pm

re: #106 Oh no...Sand People!

I must be reading you wrong. Right?

My phrasing was a little off. LOL. Yes we LDS respect the hell out of them.

/sarc sarc sarc

(I think I forgot the comma, sorry)

125 jaunte  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:00:45pm

re: #115 Oh no...Sand People!

We are on the same page. I know that a lot of the women carry this on, but out of curiosity I would love to know if it truly was the womans idea or the man's. I am leaning toward the man.

It's the 'man's' idea, roughly analogous to hobbling cattle so they can't run away. But the big boss doesn't deign to handle the cattle himself.

126 formercorpsman  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:00:48pm

re: #113 pat

Is this traced to the beginning of islam?

For some reason, I thought pre-dated that, but I have probably learned 2-3 new things today, so I always keep my eyes/ears open.

127 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:00:49pm

re: #86 Charles

Right. Lovely. And while Reuters is blamelessly reporting the truth, little girls are being horribly mutilated.

But let's just dispassionately report "the truth," devoid of right or wrong, or even concern for the rights of children.

Hey, it's their culture, what's wrong with that?

/diversity!

128 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:00:55pm

re: #111 Charles

This 'rite of passage' garbage is insulting to anyone who isn't living in the Dark Ages. Reuters should be ashamed of that kind of crap. It's sickening.

Even more so since so many NGOs (and even the U.N.) can agree the practice is barbaric.

I mean, really, how bad does it have to be to get the U.N. to condemn something like this?

129 Cognito  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:01:01pm

re: #111 Charles

This 'rite of passage' garbage is insulting to anyone who isn't living in the Dark Ages. Reuters should be ashamed of that kind of crap. It's sickening.

To me the question is whether many Africans regard it as a rite of passage, not Reuters. Many Africans also believe in witchcraft -- including by 'evil' children -- and act accordingly. Western agencies should report that mentality, I believe, and reporting it isn't endorsing it.

130 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:01:25pm

re: #111 Charles

This 'rite of passage' garbage is insulting to anyone who isn't living in the Dark Ages. Reuters should be ashamed of that kind of crap. It's sickening.

They could have at least used scare quotes around the term.

131 hermeneutics  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:01:40pm

re: #99 Kreuzueber Halbmond

Oh my God.

132 shoeless  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:01:57pm

re: #111 Charles

I totally agree, but I to the point that some in Africa do consider it a Rite of Passage, however sick that may be, it's true. I'm not saying you're wrong for being discusted or even being ticked that Reuters gave it a comparison i.e. genital mutilation and rite of passage. I just saw the comments and immediately though off the diggbats... not that that bother you though :)

133 Charles  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:01:58pm

re: #129 Cognito

To me the question is whether many Africans regard it as a rite of passage, not Reuters. Many Africans also believe in witchcraft -- including by 'evil' children -- and act accordingly. Western agencies should report that mentality, I believe, and reporting it isn't endorsing it.

And making excuses for Reuters' appalling malfeasance is what you do.

134 Ringo the Gringo  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:02:27pm

Gambia's president recently gave all homosexuals in the country 24 hours to leave Gambia or they would be beheaded.

Of course, I suppose you could call beheading homosexuals a right of passage as well....if you wanted to be culturally sensitive.

135 Mars Needs Neocons  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:02:27pm

re: #100 brainwizard73

I won't carry the water for the LDSers if they are doing what some have accused them of...if there are men having sex with underage girls they ought to be in jail. I do think it is interesting that from time to time we Americans will actually swoop in and grab kids we think are in danger, and many are in danger, so that often is a good thing.

What is incomprensible is that in Norway and other western European nations, there seems to be a "live and let live" attitude that ends up with bombs going off in trains, "youths" rioting, honor killings and girls having thier private parts mutilated.

To quote Timon in the Lion King "...and everyone is OK with this? Did I miss something here?"

FLDS not LDS. This is a degenerate cult that left the LDS stable a very long time ago.

136 realwest  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:02:35pm

re: #107 shoeless No, but it would be nice if we were in "lock step" when it comes to reading comprehension.
First you didn't read the link - it's kinda hard to miss that second sentence in which FGM is mentioned.
Secondly, no where in his intro to this thread did Charles say they endorsed it.
Actually I think you tried to move the goalposts when you were called out on not reading the article, to insinuating that Charles said they endorsed it.

137 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:02:39pm

re: #129 Cognito

Damnit, Cog. At the end of the piece they spout off what the proponents say this is for. How f*cking "dispassionate" is that? What not report both sides? Where's the stats on how many girls die from this "rite"?

138 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:03:25pm

re: #133 Charles

And making excuses for Reuters' appalling malfeasance is what you do.

Time, and time, and time, and time, and time, and time, and time, and time, and time, and time...

139 jaunte  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:03:43pm

There is an immense space between endorsing evil and accurately reporting on it. This article leans to the inaccurate side by what it leaves out.

140 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:03:49pm

re: #114 Honorary Yooper

Barbaric is too nice a word to describe that.

Ask Reuters. Barbarism in their morally bankrupt world is what happens to prisoners at Gitmo.

141 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:03:55pm

Nations which have outlawed it, and the dates:

African Nations:
Benin (2003)
Burkina Faso (1996)
Central African Republic (1966)
Chad (2003)
Côte d'Ivoire (1998)
Djibouti (1994)
Eritrea (2007)
Egypt (Ministerial Decree, 1996, 2007)
Ethiopia (2004)
Ghana (1994)
Guinea (1965, 2000)
Kenya (2001)
Niger (2003)
Senegal (1999)
South Africa (2005)
Tanzania (1998)
Togo (1998)


Nigeria (multiple states, 1999-2002)


Industrialized Nations:
Australia (6 of 8 states, 1994-97)
Belgium (2000)
Canada (1997)
Cyprus (2003)
Denmark (2003)
Italy (2005)
New Zealand (1995)
Norway (1995)
Spain (2003)
Sweden (1982, 1998)
United Kingdom (1985)
United States (Federal law, 1996; 17 of 50 states, 1994-2006)

142 formercorpsman  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:03:55pm

re: #115 Oh no...Sand People!

Me too.

It is just amazing to think that something like this would not be instinctive in say, a mother watching her own daughter, or worse, participating in it, from wanting to stop it generational if she had the chance.

143 Roentgen  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:03:56pm

re: #72 Cognito

I'm sure I'll get a great big LGF group hug for this, but here goes anyway:

To me the measure of the Reuters story is simply whether it's true. Is genital mutilation -- which is how the story describes the act -- mutilation indeed? I think so. Is it regarded with horror in the West? Pretty much universally. Is it regarded as a rite of passage in many countries in many countries, predominantly in Africa? I believe it is. Horrific as that may be.

That doesn't make it right, of course. It only makes it true.

Now everybody get in here close. Big family squeeze.

Compass...compass...*scratches head*... I came into this place with it...must be here somewhere...

144 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:04:19pm

This is the problem paragraph:

U.N. agencies say an estimated 100 to 140 million women and girls worldwide have undergone genital mutilation, whose proponents say it promotes chastity before marriage and fidelity afterwards by reducing female sexual desire. Around 3 million a year are believed to be subjected to it.

145 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:04:22pm

re: #141 MandyManners

Have the other 33 states outlawed it yet?

146 Charles  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:04:39pm

re: #132 shoeless

I totally agree, but I to the point that some in Africa do consider it a Rite of Passage, however sick that may be, it's true. I'm not saying you're wrong for being discusted or even being ticked that Reuters gave it a comparison i.e. genital mutilation and rite of passage. I just saw the comments and immediately though off the diggbats... not that that bother you though :)

Would you please read the article before spouting off? You have no idea what you're talking about.

147 The Other Les  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:04:47pm

re: #134 Ringo the Gringo

Gambia's president recently gave all homosexuals in the country 24 hours to leave Gambia or they would be beheaded.

Of course, I suppose you could call beheading homosexuals a right of passage as well....if you wanted to be culturally sensitive.

How can they tell? Anyone can accuse anybody. They could kill anyone at will.

148 shoeless  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:04:58pm

re: #146 Charles


I read it.

149 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:05:24pm

re: #129 Cognito

To me the question is whether many Africans regard it as a rite of passage, not Reuters. Many Africans also believe in witchcraft -- including by 'evil' children -- and act accordingly. Western agencies should report that mentality, I believe, and reporting it isn't endorsing it.

Alright, if that is cool then were is the immediate follow up sentance that indicates that the UN, Save the Children, and about 68 other NGOs and a ton of governments have slammed the practice? I don't see that really coming out of the article.

Check this out from the full article:

U.N. agencies say an estimated 100 to 140 million women and girls worldwide have undergone genital mutilation, whose proponents say it promotes chastity before marriage and fidelity afterwards by reducing female sexual desire. Around 3 million a year are believed to be subjected to it.

Again, where is the wider discussion of the condemnation? Is this just "dispassionate" reporting, too?

150 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:06:00pm

re: #130 Ward Cleaver

They could have at least used scare quotes around the term.


They should have loudly decried it. Not been dispassionate about it. Sometimes, outrage is needed. It goes right back to the live and let live idiocy at the top of Reuters. They HAD to report the story, but outrage never even occurred to them.
Now, had it been a Christian or Jewish custom, it would have been reported in an entirely different manner. You cannot deny that.

151 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:06:04pm

re: #145 MandyManners

Have the other 33 states outlawed it yet?

Doesn't matter. It's illegal on a federal level.

152 Bob in Breckenridge  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:06:24pm

re: #137 Sharmuta

Damnit, Cog. At the end of the piece they spout off what the proponents say this is for. How f*cking "dispassionate" is that? What not report both sides? Where's the stats on how many girls die from this "rite"?

Cmon, that would be judgmental, so they can't do that.

/Unless it was Abu Graib and something really terrible like making terrorists walk around with underwear on their heads.

153 JeremyR  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:06:41pm

re: #72 Cognito

I'm sure I'll get a great big LGF group hug for this, but here goes anyway:

To me the measure of the Reuters story is simply whether it's true. Is genital mutilation -- which is how the story describes the act -- mutilation indeed? I think so. Is it regarded with horror in the West? Pretty much universally. Is it regarded as a rite of passage in many countries in many countries, predominantly in Africa? I believe it is. Horrific as that may be.

That doesn't make it right, of course. It only makes it true.

Now everybody get in here close. Big family squeeze.

A fellow from Israel was touring the Bronx Zoo when, as he approached the lion cage, he saw a small child cross the chains, and stick its hand into the cage. A large lion in the cage grabbed the child's arm in its powerful jaws and began to bite down.
The Israeli, without hesitation jumped the barrier, and reaching through the bars struck the lion a hard blow and then pulled the child to safety and returned the screaming toddler to his parents.
A man in the crowd rushed up, and identifying himself as a reporter for Reuters, told the Israeli that he would report the story and make sure the entire town knew of his selfless heroism.
So, quizzed the reporter, are you from the Bronx?
Oh, no, replied the Israeli, I'm from Israel and just here visiting.
The reporter made a few quick notes and departed. The next morning, the headlines read, Jewish tourist assaults African immigrant and steals his lunch in brazen broad daylight attack.

154 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:06:42pm

re: #124 Mars Needs Neocons

I was just waiting for the whole, 'You all got horns on your head, still have 3 wives and 30 concubines, what's the secret password, blah blah blah'. But now I got your context.

/you know the drill

155 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:06:51pm

re: #135 Mars Needs Neocons

Correct, sorry for the mistake...no eccelesaitical offense intended.

mea culpa

156 Cognito  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:06:58pm

re: #133 Charles

And making excuses for Reuters' appalling malfeasance is what you do.

Which appalling malfeasance?

Let's say you're standing in an African village. The people there are all, strangely, wearing diapers on their heads. It is, they say, a rite of passage.

So you report, "Western societies would regard diaper hats as bizarre. But in XYZ village, they are regarded as a rite of passage."

That's not malfeasance. It's just the truth.

157 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:07:14pm

re: #155 brainwizard73

Correct, sorry for the mistake...no eccelesaitical offense intended.

mea culpa

No if only I can work the damn spell check...grrr.

158 Opilio  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:07:35pm

re: #113 pat

Another factoit. Almost 50% 0f Egyptian parents report they have had their daughters treated.

Treated? You need to expand your vocabulary if you thought treated fit in that context.

159 Desert Dog  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:07:40pm

Read Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali....goes into some pretty nasty details about this "rite of passage"....is this so-called ritual mentioned in the Koran?

160 abolitionist  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:07:44pm

Not.safe.for.work; sound warning - LOUD scream near near the end.
Thank God for my Clitoris! (video)

161 Charles  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:07:45pm

re: #149 brainwizard73

Alright, if that is cool then were is the immediate follow up sentance that indicates that the UN, Save the Children, and about 68 other NGOs and a ton of governments have slammed the practice? I don't see that really coming out of the article.

Check this out from the full article:

U.N. agencies say an estimated 100 to 140 million women and girls worldwide have undergone genital mutilation, whose proponents say it promotes chastity before marriage and fidelity afterwards by reducing female sexual desire. Around 3 million a year are believed to be subjected to it.

Again, where is the wider discussion of the condemnation? Is this just "dispassionate" reporting, too?

This is the Reuters style. They have a large number of reporters who see nothing wrong with this evil practice, and the attitude is very obviously reflected in their reporting.

162 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:07:50pm

re: #156 Cognito

Thats a boneheaded comparison, and you should know better than that.

163 seekeroftruth  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:07:59pm

re: #129 Cognito


When the reuter is calling is "rite of passage", it is minimizing the actual act. This barbaric act - see #99 post - is cruel, illegal, and Reuters should report it straight - a crime. And the country Reuters is writing about is Norway - not Africa.

164 Slumbering Behemoth  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:08:12pm

re: #129 Cognito

Would that they included a single word in the following, I might be inclined to agree. The word in bold is my addition:

The practice, also known as female circumcision, is outlawed in Norway and arouses horror among many people in the West but is considered a rite of passage for young women in many countries, predominantly in Africa.

165 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:08:16pm

re: #159 Desert Dog

Read Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali....goes into some pretty nasty details about this "rite of passage"....is this so-called ritual mentioned in the Koran?

No- it's hadith.

166 JeremyR  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:08:35pm

re: #80 MandyManners

It is done as early as infancy in some cases. That is NOT a rite of passage. The reporter needs to do a bit of research.

Way to hand him his ass, now go disinfect your hands.

167 formercorpsman  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:09:15pm

re: #129 Cognito

Congnito, where you are losing this argument is that Reuters has time and again been shown to be partisan in it's reporting.

For something like this, just up until years ago, the western media could report it for what it is, a barbaric act.

That would be without trying to equalize the act by washing away the brutality with clever wording and nuance.

When they report it this way, they are white-washing facts. Some lost tribes still practice human sacrifice.

Will they nuance that as well?

168 Charles  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:09:33pm

re: #156 Cognito

Which appalling malfeasance?

Let's say you're standing in an African village. The people there are all, strangely, wearing diapers on their heads. It is, they say, a rite of passage.

So you report, "Western societies would regard diaper hats as bizarre. But in XYZ village, they are regarded as a rite of passage."

That's not malfeasance. It's just the truth.

That's really weak, even for you.

169 Desert Dog  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:09:34pm

re: #156 Cognito

Apples and oranges.......wearing a diaper on your head is one thing....mutilating a child is quite another.....who are we to judge? People with a brain and two eyes, that is all it takes to see this is wrong, wrong, wrong

170 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:09:37pm

re: #156 Cognito

You see, everyone. It's nuance - something us knuckle-draggin, right-wing, gun-toting, yokels don't unnerstan...

171 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:09:38pm

re: #151 Honorary Yooper

Doesn't matter. It's illegal on a federal level.

That's not enough. Each state should outlaw it. By not doing so, isn't a state giving it a pass?

172 wolfie  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:09:42pm

re: #149 brainwizard73

....whose proponents say....

Okay. We got what the proponents say. HOW ABOUT ADDING WHAT DETRACTORS SAY about the procedure!
Whoa.

That IS the nasty paragraph.

173 Cognito  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:09:53pm

re: #137 Sharmuta

Damnit, Cog. At the end of the piece they spout off what the proponents say this is for. How f*cking "dispassionate" is that? What not report both sides? Where's the stats on how many girls die from this "rite"?

It seems to me the article's default position is that so-called female circumcision is mutilation, so they offer the (however strange) proponent view at the end.

After all, the story does call it mutilation outright. And it says the proponents 'subject' the girls to the act.

That's just my reading, of course. Looking through the story, I don't get a pro-mutilation vibe at any point.

174 realwest  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:10:31pm

re: #146 Charles
and
re: #148 shoeless

As I suggested - sorta tongue in cheek - earlier, maybe you should institute some sort of literacy test for registration here. Nothing in the article was convulted or difficult to understand but shoeless apparently did have trouble comprehending it.

175 funky chicken  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:10:32pm

re: #99 Kreuzueber Halbmond

The truth of the matter is disturbing. People with this culture and system of values have no place in Western Society. This is how it's done in Somalia:

"The child, completely naked, is made to sit on a low stool. Several women take hold of her and open her legs wide. After separating her outer and inner lips, the operator, usually a woman experienced in this procedure, sits down facing the child. With her kitchen knife the operator first pierces and slices open the hood of the clitoris. Then she begins to cut it out. While another woman wipes off the blood with a rag, the operator digs with her sharp fingernail a hole the length of the clitoris to detach and pull out the organ. The little girl, held down by the women helpers, screams in extreme pain; but no one pays the slightest attention.The operator finishes this job by entirely pulling out the clitoris, cutting it to the bone with her knife. Her helpers again wipe off the spurting blood with a rag. The operator then removes the remaining flesh, digging with her finger to remove any remnant of the clitoris among the flowing blood. The neighbor women are then invited to plunge their fingers into the bloody hole to verify that every piece of the clitoris is removed."

[Link: www.middle-east-info.org...]

Bloodthirsty, bloodlust savages.

176 The Other Les  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:10:34pm

re: #156 Cognito

That's not malfeasance. It's just the truth.

The example you cite doesn't involve the mutilation of helpless children.

177 Mars Needs Neocons  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:10:50pm

re: #154 Oh no...Sand People!

I was just waiting for the whole, 'You all got horns on your head, still have 3 wives and 30 concubines, what's the secret password, blah blah blah'. But now I got your context.

/you know the drill

Been there heard that, laughed at the idiot saying it.

178 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:11:01pm

re: #156 Cognito

Oh, for fuck's sake. That is the lamest analogy I've ever heard of in my life.

179 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:11:15pm

re: #161 Charles

If it happened in Dallas or Chicago, I wonder if Reuters would be as blase.

180 Mars Needs Neocons  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:11:17pm

re: #155 brainwizard73

Correct, sorry for the mistake...no eccelesaitical offense intended.

mea culpa

I figured, just helping a fellow lizard.

181 shoeless  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:11:27pm

re: #174 realwest

No, I comprehend... I just don't think that they were pro-genital mutilation.

182 Charles  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:11:30pm

re: #173 Cognito

It seems to me the article's default position is that so-called female circumcision is mutilation, so they offer the (however strange) proponent view at the end.

After all, the story does call it mutilation outright. And it says the proponents 'subject' the girls to the act.

That's just my reading, of course. Looking through the story, I don't get a pro-mutilation vibe at any point.

Who said anything about a "pro-mutilation vibe?"

What's going on here is worse than that. It's a moral emptiness that pervades Reuters' reporting on almost every level.

183 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:11:50pm

re: #171 MandyManners

I agree Mandy- there's no reason states can't pass additional laws, and I'd ask all Lizards to contact their local legislators about this issue.

184 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:12:00pm

re: #173 Cognito

The pro mutilation vibe is the lack of condemnation. When Dick Cheney had his "hunting accident", they reported on it with a lot more derision and disapproval than they did here.

185 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:12:19pm

Cognito, I'm curious. Do you post on other blogs?

186 Bob in Breckenridge  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:12:29pm

re: #170 Noam Sayin'

You see, everyone. It's nuance - something us knuckle-draggin, right-wing, gun-toting, yokels don't unnerstan...

How dare you call me a yokel. Everyone knows I said John Lennon shouldn't have married her.

187 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:12:31pm

re: #171 MandyManners

That's not enough. Each state should outlaw it. By not doing so, isn't a state giving it a pass?

Yes and no. Since it is a crime at the federal level, it can be prosecuted in all 50 states, Puerto Rico, and the territories. It allows the FBI to investigate it anywhere in the US, regardless of local or state law.

188 formercorpsman  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:12:32pm

re: #156 Cognito

But Cognito, it is not about diapers on heads.

As well, they are not standing in an African village, but a Western Nation.

189 Mars Needs Neocons  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:12:59pm

re: #156 Cognito

Which appalling malfeasance?

Let's say you're standing in an African village. The people there are all, strangely, wearing diapers on their heads. It is, they say, a rite of passage.

So you report, "Western societies would regard diaper hats as bizarre. But in XYZ village, they are regarded as a rite of passage."

That's not malfeasance. It's just the truth.

Ok, let me try. At age 18 the boys are to track down tourists and cut off their dicks in a rite of passage.


/Oh, yeah I see how dispassionate works.

190 The Other Les  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:13:09pm

re: #158 Opilio

Treated? You need to expand your vocabulary if you thought treated fit in that context.

The Soviets used to have a treatment for Aversion to Socialism called the Lubyanka Breakfast. It was one cigarette and a pistol round to the back of the head.

In civilized nations it is properly called murder and is condemned as such.

191 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:13:13pm

re: #179 brainwizard73

If it happened in Dallas or Chicago, I wonder if Reuters would be as blase.

Yes. It's Rueters.

192 seekeroftruth  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:13:16pm

re: #173 Cognito

"so they offer the (however strange) proponent view at the end."
It's not journalism to offer a proponent view.

193 Slumbering Behemoth  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:13:21pm

re: #156 Cognito

Again, the operative term in the article is not regarded as (which isn't present there), but is.

194 funky chicken  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:13:27pm

re: #159 Desert Dog

Read Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali....goes into some pretty nasty details about this "rite of passage"....is this so-called ritual mentioned in the Koran?

apparently not....it's just a "cultural thing" which is why some Western "feminists" don't oppose it

195 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:13:56pm

re: #173 Cognito

You didn't even address my point. Where's the "dispassioate" view on the remaining facts? How many girls does the UN say DIE from this? Or do they not need to report both sides?

196 psyop  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:13:58pm

re: #100 brainwizard73

I won't carry the water for the LDSers if they are doing what some have accused them of...if there are men having sex with underage girls they ought to be in jail. "

Do not mistake the LDS: Latter Day Saints (mormon church) with the splinter group and wholly unrecognized FLDS: Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints (wacko church).

Please do a little research and arm yourself with knowledge. It makes debate easier and more fun.

197 shoeless  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:13:59pm

re: #182 Charles

You'll probably slam me again, or tell me to stop spouting off, but if you would have noted the moral emptiness of the article rather than implying that they endorsed the practice, I think that would have been more accurate.

198 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:14:07pm

re: #172 wolfie

....whose proponents say....

Okay. We got what the proponents say. HOW ABOUT ADDING WHAT DETRACTORS SAY about the procedure!
Whoa.

That IS the nasty paragraph.

How much you want to bet that these "proponents" would be about 10 times more likely to support terrorism than your average member of that society...wherever it is?

Second thought, how absolutely screwed up do you have to be to let someone do this to your child? Seriously?

199 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:14:20pm

re: #195 Sharmuta

Grr- I'm so pissed about this I'm PIMFing.

200 Desert Dog  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:14:25pm

re: #182 Charles

Who said anything about a "pro-mutilation vibe?"

What's going on here is worse than that. It's a moral emptiness that pervades Reuters' reporting on almost every level.

They are "non-judgmental and non-biased" journalists.....when it suits them....if this was some crazy "Christian cult" doing this, they would cover the story very differently.....just when you think Reuters cannot sink any lower, they always manage to drop down one more notch.

201 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:14:47pm

re: #149 brainwizard73

Alright, if that is cool then were is the immediate follow up sentance that indicates that the UN, Save the Children, and about 68 other NGOs and a ton of governments have slammed the practice? I don't see that really coming out of the article.

Check this out from the full article:

U.N. agencies say an estimated 100 to 140 million women and girls worldwide have undergone genital mutilation, whose proponents say it promotes chastity before marriage and fidelity afterwards by reducing female sexual desire. Around 3 million a year are believed to be subjected to it.

Again, where is the wider discussion of the condemnation? Is this just "dispassionate" reporting, too?

Kee-ripes. Someone needs to ask these subhuman 'proponents' how can these women be chaste when even a gunny sack/burka can't keep the men from raping them. I hope my PC can survive this thread...I am seriously fuming.

202 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:15:07pm

re: #197 shoeless
Dead issue, move on.

203 jaunte  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:15:10pm

re: #197 shoeless

Think of it as a test.

204 wolfie  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:15:19pm

re: #171 MandyManners

That's not enough. Each state should outlaw it. By not doing so, isn't a state giving it a pass?

Not really. They just don't have statutes on the books because there haven't been any such crimes committed there ...........yet.
I mean, who needed such a law in 1970?

205 shoeless  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:15:44pm

re: #202 CapeCoddah

I see, the conversation has officially been closed... OK.

206 Cognito  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:16:02pm

re: #168 Charles

That's really weak, even for you.

You keep coming after me, instead of the argument.

Regardless: It's an evil act. And I think it's important that the world know that -- every little horrific detail -- so that its proponents are shouted out of existence. We just disagree on this particular news story.

207 jaunte  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:16:23pm

re: #204 wolfie

I think it's likely covered under 'assault on a child.'

208 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:16:29pm

re: #205 shoeless

NO, you did not read it properly, and you are making an ass of yourself. There, I said it.

209 realwest  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:16:33pm

re: #171 MandyManners
Mandy - "That's not enough. Each state should outlaw it. By not doing so, isn't a state giving it a pass?"
I don't know the federal legislation to which Honorary Yooper is referring, but it could very well be that the federal legislations applies to everyone in the US, making state laws unnecessary. However, even if this is the case, I could certainly support state's specifically outlawing it if only for the symbolic nature of the state action.

210 Charles  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:16:36pm

re: #197 shoeless

You'll probably slam me again, or tell me to stop spouting off, but if you would have noted the moral emptiness of the article rather than implying that they endorsed the practice, I think that would have been more accurate.

You're right, I'll slam you again. You're attributing words and opinions to me that I did not write, in an attempt to excuse your lack of understanding of my point.

211 shoeless  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:17:10pm

re: #208 CapeCoddah

Nah, I'm pretty sure I read it correctly.

212 winston06  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:17:31pm

Eurabia = Lost Cause

213 psyop  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:17:41pm

re: #106 Oh no...Sand People!

I must be reading you wrong. Right?

re: #118 Dar ul Harb

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."

--attributed to Gen. Sir Charles Napier, British Commander-in Chief of India, on sati

A-effing-men!

214 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:17:48pm

re: #187 Honorary Yooper

Yes and no. Since it is a crime at the federal level, it can be prosecuted in all 50 states, Puerto Rico, and the territories. It allows the FBI to investigate it anywhere in the US, regardless of local or state law.

But given that federal law enforcement has a lot on its plate, it would be a good idea to have it on state "books", too. Then it can be used as an-add on charge to child abuse/endangerment and might even be a good way to keep tabs on some people that might have other agendas, you know, like establishing a world caliphate.

215 seekeroftruth  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:17:52pm

When we stop distinguishing between right and wrong, good and evil, we will be in big trouble. In healthy societies, the children are protected.
This act on little girls is wrong, evil and downright cruel.

216 Mars Needs Neocons  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:17:56pm

re: #197 shoeless

You'll probably slam me again, or tell me to stop spouting off, but if you would have noted the moral emptiness of the article rather than implying that they endorsed the practice, I think that would have been more accurate.

How freaking hard is it to understand SARCASM. This kind of stupidity has to be intentional.

217 Cognito  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:18:02pm

re: #192 seekeroftruth

"so they offer the (however strange) proponent view at the end."
It's not journalism to offer a proponent view.

Yes, it is. You owe the reader some sense of why anyone would undertake such a horrific practice.

It's not journalism to push the proponent view. And I don't believe this story does.

218 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:18:23pm

Shoeless, I'd back away from the thin ice if I were you.

219 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:18:28pm

Bride lied about virginity; annulment draws outrage

The bride said she was a virgin. When her new husband discovered she lied, he went to court to annul the marriage — and a French judge agreed.

The ruling ending the Muslim couple's union has stunned France and raised concerns the country's much-cherished secular values are losing ground to cultural traditions from its fast-growing immigrant communities.

The decision also exposed the silent shame borne by some Muslim women who transgress long-held customs demanding proof of virginity on the wedding night.

In its ruling, the court concluded the woman had misrepresented herself as a virgin, which was a prerequisite in this marriage.

In treating the case as a breach of contract, the ruling was decried as undermining decades of progress in women's rights. Marriage, they said, was reduced to the status of a commercial transaction in which women could be discarded by husbands claiming to have discovered hidden defects.

The outcry has been unrelenting since word of the April 1 decision in the closed-door trial in Lille was made public last week by the daily newspaper Liberation. In its judgment, the tribunal said the 2006 marriage had been ended based on "an error in the essential qualities" of the bride, "who had presented herself as single and chaste."

/Islam, what's love got to do with it?

220 wolfie  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:18:34pm

re: #197 shoeless

He didn't say they endorsed the practice.
grrrrrrr

221 swamprat  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:18:44pm

re: #115 Oh no...Sand People!

We are on the same page. I know that a lot of the women carry this on, but out of curiosity I would love to know if it truly was the womans idea or the man's. I am leaning toward the man.


I read this book. It seemed to be eagerly sought by women in the Congo as a ceremony that let them rise to adult status. However, the "operation" varied from tribe to tribe with some tribes removing only the outer hood of the clitoris. These tribes were not muslim but worshiped various gods. This should not be a true muslim tradition as the prophet said "not to over do it" (! ?) The guy in the book was a Belgium civil servant of some sort. I read this in the 5th grade. Muslims seem to like this tradition, but unlike stoning, and wife beating, and beheading, and lying to gain military advantage, and keeping slaves, and having more than one wife; it(complete removal of the clitoris), does not seem to be supported by text.

222 Intrepid  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:18:51pm

The "Religion of Peace" and its honor of women:

- forces women to wear cloth to hide themselves in order to not excite men
- disallows women to go out by themselves, only with a male relative
- mutilates the genitalia of young girls and calls it "circumcision"
- kills them if they are either raped OR have any kind of relationship with a non-muslim
- has a pedophile as its Prophet

Yes, Islam sure does honor women, yes indeedy do!

223 Charles  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:18:54pm

re: #206 Cognito

You keep coming after me, instead of the argument.

Regardless: It's an evil act. And I think it's important that the world know that -- every little horrific detail -- so that its proponents are shouted out of existence. We just disagree on this particular news story.

You have no argument. You just attempted to equate a hypothetical tribe wearing underpants on their heads to the very real torture and mutilation of young girls.

224 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:19:00pm

re: #214 brainwizard73

But given that federal law enforcement has a lot on its plate, it would be a good idea to have it on state "books", too. Then it can be used as an-add on charge to child abuse/endangerment and might even be a good way to keep tabs on some people that might have other agendas, you know, like establishing a world caliphate.

Very true. It'd allow each state to prosecute it as well.

225 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:19:08pm

re: #211 shoeless

whatever you say.

226 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:19:19pm

re: #206 Cognito

Regardless: It's an evil act. And I think it's important that the world know that -- every little horrific detail -- so that its proponents are shouted out of existence. We just disagree on this particular news story.

Then why didn't reuters report on the facts against this instead of just spouting the "proponent's" line? You want to talk about dispassionate reporting- well- they didn't do that. They had an opportunity to educate, and instead, they just chalked it up to a "rite of passage".

227 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:19:43pm

re: #196 psyop

Do not mistake the LDS: Latter Day Saints (mormon church) with the splinter group and wholly unrecognized FLDS: Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints (wacko church).

Please do a little research and arm yourself with knowledge. It makes debate easier and more fun.

See the thread above, I was already slammed for my clear and totally brain-dead mistake...

mea culpa part deux

228 doriangrey  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:19:48pm

re: #182 Charles

Who said anything about a "pro-mutilation vibe?"

What's going on here is worse than that. It's a moral emptiness that pervades Reuters' reporting on almost every level.

Charles, I say this with all due respect and more than a considerable amount of fear and trembling... This is your house, yours to clean when ever it becomes necessary.

229 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:19:59pm

My BP can't take this tonight. I'm gonna' don my jammies, curl up in bed with a book and watch Murder She Wrote until I drift off to sleep.

Good night, Lizards.

230 shoeless  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:20:10pm

re: #210 Charles


You're right, I clearly did misunderstand your point. So you tell me that I'm spouting off? I agree with your point that they completely miss the opportunity to denounce, decry, condemn the practice, but I think it would have been clearer if you pointed that out directly.

231 wolfie  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:20:22pm

re: #207 jaunte

I think it's likely covered under 'assault on a child.'

I'll bet you're right.

232 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:20:22pm

If we tolerantly ignored all horiffic ignorance, and instead just let our heads loll around like bobble-head dolls, then it would make zero difference to Cognito.

Cognito attacks not because of what we say, but because attacking is a drug that makes a high.

Not worth a direct reply, therefore the GAZE tag applies.

233 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:20:52pm

re: #229 MandyManners

I understand- believe me. God love you, Honey.

234 Desert Dog  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:20:54pm

The W.H.O. on FGM

They seem to tippy-toe around the Islamic connection to this....

235 shoeless  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:20:58pm

re: #218 Honorary Yooper


I see, so if I disagree, I'm on thin Ice?

236 Charles  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:20:59pm

re: #226 Sharmuta

Then why didn't reuters report on the facts against this instead of just spouting the "proponent's" line? You want to talk about dispassionate reporting- well- they didn't do that. They had an opportunity to educate, and instead, they just chalked it up to a "rite of passage".

And in my opinion, it's no accident. After observing the infiltration of Reuters by Islamists for several years, this kind of sly promotion of barbarism is completely to be expected.

237 jaunte  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:21:16pm

re: #229 MandyManners

Goodnight, Mandy.

238 Cognito  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:21:23pm

re: #223 Charles

You have no argument. You just attempted to equate a hypothetical tribe wearing underpants on their heads to the very real torture and mutilation of young girls.

No, obviously I'm not equating the two acts. It was just a poor metaphor.

I hope you don't really, truly think I consider the two things equal. If you do, just say the word.

239 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:21:26pm

re: #230 shoeless

Well, we all got it, without the instructions....

240 RedPepper  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:21:54pm

Good thing we can all take comfort in the moral superiority of Western Culture, which refuses to be "judgmental" about the cultural norms of other peoples ...

/gagging on an overdose of PC ...

241 Mars Needs Neocons  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:22:06pm

re: #227 brainwizard73

See the thread above, I was already slammed for my clear and totally brain-dead mistake...

mea culpa part deux

Not slammed, gentle nudge. I like you. ....now shoeless on the other hand is starting to piss me off.

242 shoeless  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:22:11pm

re: #239 CapeCoddah


I'm clearly not as in tune with Charles as everyone else...

243 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:22:11pm

re: #238 Cognito

You're such a dink.

244 Boondock St. Bender  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:22:15pm

re: #11 shoeless

the end of the second paraghaph

245 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:22:40pm

re: #235 shoeless

I see, so if I disagree, I'm on thin Ice?

No, the lack of understanding of sarcasm.

246 seekeroftruth  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:23:07pm

re: #217 Cognito

Yes, it is. You owe the reader some sense of why anyone would undertake such a horrific practice.

It's not journalism to push the proponent view. And I don't believe this story does.

No you don't owe the reader some sense of why anyone would do this as a journalist. Just report the facts - who, what, when, where and how. Period.

247 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:23:12pm

re: #221 swamprat

I read this book. It seemed to be eagerly sought by women in the Congo as a ceremony that let them rise to adult status. However, the "operation" varied from tribe to tribe with some tribes removing only the outer hood of the clitoris. These tribes were not muslim but worshiped various gods. This should not be a true muslim tradition as the prophet said "not to over do it" (! ?) The guy in the book was a Belgium civil servant of some sort. I read this in the 5th grade. Muslims seem to like this tradition, but unlike stoning, and wife beating, and beheading, and lying to gain military advantage, and keeping slaves, and having more than one wife; it(complete removal of the clitoris), does not seem to be supported by text.

I think I typed too soon earlier. Since everything you mentioned aside from the FGM is virtually promoted in the Koran, I didn't think it a very large stretch to throw this in to boot. I swore I came across it in the Koran, but amongst the jumbled mess of a book that is, I could have just misread.
Sad this practice may have been going on for millenia.

248 Mars Needs Neocons  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:23:19pm

re: #230 shoeless

You're right, I clearly did misunderstand your point. So you tell me that I'm spouting off? I agree with your point that they completely miss the opportunity to denounce, decry, condemn the practice, but I think it would have been clearer if you pointed that out directly.

Then how the hell did EVERYONE except you and cog get it? This is not honest.

249 realwest  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:23:28pm

re: #187 Honorary Yooper I agree with what you said, but please see my #209 above. There is, I believe a perfectly valid argument for saying States should have separate laws (even if they just parrot the federal law) for the symbolic value if nothing else.

250 Cognito  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:23:30pm

re: #226 Sharmuta

Then why didn't reuters report on the facts against this instead of just spouting the "proponent's" line? You want to talk about dispassionate reporting- well- they didn't do that. They had an opportunity to educate, and instead, they just chalked it up to a "rite of passage".

I don't believe they did. They spent just as much space calling it genital mutilation, which is "outlawed in Norway and arouses horror among many people in the West..."

So following your argument, they "chalked it up" to being a horror.

Which it is.

251 formercorpsman  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:23:34pm

This Michelob Lime Cactus stuff ain't too bad though.

252 Slumbering Behemoth  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:23:36pm

re: #197 shoeless

From Charles:

Sheer evil surfaces in Norway—but to Reuters it might be just a “rite of passage.”

From Reuters:

The practice, also known as female circumcision, is outlawed in Norway and arouses horror among many people in the West but is a rite of passage for young women in many countries, predominantly in Africa.

I do not think that Charles was implying an endorsement on their part, but simply pointing at their unwillingness to condemn such barbaric acts.

What you choose to infer from that is completely up to you.

253 Bob in Breckenridge  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:23:39pm

re: #219 Killian Bundy

The ruling ending the Muslim couple's union has stunned France and raised concerns the country's much-cherished secular values are losing ground to cultural traditions from its fast-growing immigrant communities.

You know, the Muslim, Polish, Amish, Mennonite, and other assorted "immigrant communities".

254 pat  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:23:41pm

re: #126 formercorpsman

Sorry. i have been gone.FGM is an Egyptian thing. PreChristian, PreIslam. It has been rejected by all Churches in the world save Islam and the Coptics. And it is losing favor with the latter. The Coptics are the original inhabitants of Egypt. Muslims are Arab conquerors. That manage to embrace every bad practice they can. Cleopatra is thot to have been had a total FGM.

255 pat  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:24:15pm

re: #229 MandyManners

Nite Mandy.

256 psyop  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:24:25pm

re: #227 brainwizard73

See the thread above, I was already slammed for my clear and totally brain-dead mistake...

mea culpa part deux

I apologize, I was backed up in my reading of posts due to the bedtime of my daughter.

Diaper change and bedtime stories took precedence over correct post timelines....

No offense meant, none taken.

257 Cognito  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:24:26pm

re: #246 seekeroftruth

No you don't owe the reader some sense of why anyone would do this as a journalist. Just report the facts - who, what, when, where and how. Period.

You forgot "why."

258 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:24:38pm

re: #242 shoeless

I haven't been here long, but, I have never had a problem understanding just what he is getting at. All you have to do is pay attention. We are grownups here, none of us need spoon feeding. Keep up.

259 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:24:41pm

re: #249 realwest

I agree with what you said, but please see my #209 above. There is, I believe a perfectly valid argument for saying States should have separate laws (even if they just parrot the federal law) for the symbolic value if nothing else.

Yep, see my #224 as well. I agree.

260 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:24:55pm

re: #222 Intrepid

The "Religion of Peace" and its honor of women:

- forces women to wear cloth to hide themselves in order to not excite men
- disallows women to go out by themselves, only with a male relative
- mutilates the genitalia of young girls and calls it "circumcision"
- kills them if they are either raped OR have any kind of relationship with a non-muslim
- has a pedophile as its Prophet

Yes, Islam sure does honor women, yes indeedy do!

Have you ever seen Muslim women in panel discussions when the women mention that Islam (and Shira) is really good for women because they don't have to worry about men hitting on them or ogling them?

Anyone have stats on how many Christian, Jewish, Bhuddist or Hindu girls get chopped up by FGM?

Anyone?

Anyone?

Hmmmm.

261 shoeless  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:25:07pm

re: #248 Mars Needs Neocons

How am I being dishonest. I took the sentence too literally. Charles has detailed his point and I agree with him completely.

262 Charles  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:25:11pm

re: #246 seekeroftruth

No you don't owe the reader some sense of why anyone would do this as a journalist. Just report the facts - who, what, when, where and how. Period.

I'll go farther. I think Western wire services have a duty to express the horror of this kind of mutilation. But Reuters is more concerned with not angering their Islamic readers, so they bend over backwards to look "fair" -- and end up making excuses for Dark Ages barbarism.

This is the mainstream media's sickness in a microcosm.

263 pat  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:25:12pm

re: #236 Charles

Ditto.

264 formercorpsman  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:25:56pm

re: #254 pat

No problem. Like I said, this site is a wealth of opinion & information.

Thanks for the response.

265 Intrepid  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:26:06pm

Even the United Nations condemns Female Genital Mutilation!

Europe loves the UN - as does, apparently the whole Moonbat world - and so why does Reuters NOT CARE?

UN Document of Feb 2008

266 The Other Les  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:26:13pm

re: #254 pat

So Clio was just spreading the legs and thinking of Egypt?

I don't think I'll buy that.

267 swamprat  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:26:13pm

re: #156 Cognito

Which appalling malfeasance?

Let's say you're standing in an African village. The people there are all, strangely, wearing diapers on their heads. It is, they say, a rite of passage.

So you report, "Western societies would regard diaper hats as bizarre. But in XYZ village, they are regarded as a rite of passage."

That's not malfeasance. It's just the truth.


C'mon. You can do better than this. I expect college-level sophistry from you. This ain't even close.

268 psyop  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:26:17pm

re: #213 psyop

Disregard the first regard on that post....

meh....

269 seekeroftruth  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:26:24pm

re: #257 Cognito

Why belongs on the editorial page - you should know that.

270 shoeless  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:26:26pm

re: #252 Slumbering Behemoth

You're absolutly correct. I inferred incorrectly, and the point was clarified. I meant to malice...

271 Bob in Breckenridge  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:26:52pm

re: #229 MandyManners

My BP can't take this tonight. I'm gonna' don my jammies, curl up in bed with a book and watch Murder She Wrote until I drift off to sleep.

Good night, Lizards.

"Murder, She Wrote"? I thought you had to at least 60 to watch that. J/K!

272 wolfie  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:26:53pm

re: #250 Cognito

I don't believe they did. They spent just as much space calling it genital mutilation, which is "outlawed in Norway and arouses horror among many people in the West..."

So following your argument, they "chalked it up" to being a horror.

Which it is.

Saying that something "arouses horror" in the West is not calling it a horror, BTW.

273 doriangrey  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:26:53pm

re: #257 Cognito

You forgot "why."

Sorry asshole, the why in journalism is never supposed to be an objectified or rationalized why.

274 Desert Dog  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:27:01pm

re: #240 RedPepper

Good thing we can all take comfort in the moral superiority of Western Culture, which refuses to be "judgmental" about the cultural norms of other peoples ...

/gagging on an overdose of PC ...

Moral equivalences means you never have to say your sorry....we are all the same and equal....a culture that wears diapers on their heads (Cognito) and mutilates it's little girls is just as good as our culture......yep, different, but not better or worse...ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

275 shoeless  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:27:08pm

correctre: #270 shoeless

You're absolutly correct. I inferred incorrectly, and the point was clarified. I meant to malice...


Oops, NO Malice...

276 seekeroftruth  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:27:20pm

re: #262 Charles

Thank Charles - well said.

277 Cognito  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:27:40pm

re: #269 seekeroftruth

Why belongs on the editorial page - you should know that.

No, sorry. You're wrong.

278 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:28:15pm

re: #250 Cognito

No where in that article do they mention the horrible side effects of FGM or how many innocent girls die from this barbarity. That you continue to try to make excuses for the lack of full reporting on this travesty is disgusting, Cog. Please- stop now.

279 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:28:21pm

re: #241 Mars Needs Neocons

True enough; you didn't slam me...I just feel like an idiot for making a stupid mistake...just trying to be hard on myself.

Where is my Babs Streisand? I could use a little more pain.

280 formercorpsman  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:28:59pm

re: #262 Charles

In the vein of one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

You summed it up excellent.

281 realwest  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:29:00pm

re: #214 brainwizard73
Well if you want to keep tabs on folks with an agenda like a world wide Caliphate, the federal law is the way to go. Moreover, I don't know that the State law could be in addition to the federal law in practice (in other words, if you were convicted in Federal court you couldn't be tried again for the same crime in a State court and vice-versa). But you are correct that the Fed's have a lot on their plate and that being able to prosecute someone on the state level might be faster and easier to accomplish.

282 Cognito  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:29:30pm

re: #273 doriangrey

Sorry asshole, the why in journalism is never supposed to be an objectified or rationalized why.

Forgive me if I hesitate to take lessons on objective reporting from someone who begins a note, "Sorry, asshole..."

Thank you anyway.

283 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:29:40pm

re: #256 psyop

I apologize, I was backed up in my reading of posts due to the bedtime of my daughter.

Diaper change and bedtime stories took precedence over correct post timelines....

No offense meant, none taken.

Diaper change and bedtime stories LOTS more important than this foolishness. Great time of day...especially if they stay down.

284 doriangrey  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:30:00pm

re: #277 Cognito

No, sorry. You're wrong.

Cog, you have no morals or ethics, and quite frankly are both evil and an imbecile.

285 pat  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:30:11pm

re: #266 The Other Les

Buy it.

286 swamprat  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:30:19pm

re: #247 Oh no...Sand People! Mo met a person(female, I think), who "neutered" as it were, women slaves. He told her not to "overdo it", as it "leaves a smile", or something like that. This is from memory of a previous thread.

287 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:30:41pm

re: #278 Sharmuta

No where in that article do they mention the horrible side effects of FGM or how many innocent girls die from this barbarity. That you continue to try to make excuses for the lack of full reporting on this travesty is disgusting, Cog. Please- stop now.

Yes, please, Cog. I think you've gone a bit too far here. The writer for Reuters here is not disgusted with it, IMHO.

I've defended you from some of the others here. However, this article has little excuse.

288 Cognito  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:30:55pm

re: #274 Desert Dog

Moral equivalences means you never have to say your sorry....we are all the same and equal....a culture that wears diapers on their heads (Cognito) and mutilates it's little girls is just as good as our culture......yep, different, but not better or worse...ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Please quote.

289 Bob in Breckenridge  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:31:06pm

re: #262 Charles

I'll go farther. I think Western wire services have a duty to express the horror of this kind of mutilation. But Reuters is more concerned with not angering their Islamic readers, so they bend over backwards to look "fair" -- and end up making excuses for Dark Ages barbarism.

This is the mainstream media's sickness in a microcosm.

Exactly. Insult 90% so as not to insult the other 10%.

290 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:31:21pm

I got to sign out and go give my brightest lights in the world the biggest hugs they have ever had. I am even going to wake them up to do it.

Regardless how the RoP treats their own, I will continue treating my wife and daughter like the Princess and Queen I pretend them to be and in my eyes they are.

Night all.

291 doriangrey  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:31:27pm

re: #282 Cognito

Forgive me if I hesitate to take lessons on objective reporting from someone who begins a note, "Sorry, asshole..."

Thank you anyway.

You couldnt take a lesson from anyone, even someone like me, even if it were to save your pathetic life.

292 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:31:38pm

re: #282 Cognito

Forgive me if I hesitate to take lessons on objective reporting from someone who begins a note, "Sorry, asshole..."

Thank you anyway.

In his defense, you are an asshole.

293 Mars Needs Neocons  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:31:53pm

re: #279 brainwizard73

True enough; you didn't slam me...I just feel like an idiot for making a stupid mistake...just trying to be hard on myself.

Where is my Babs Streisand? I could use a little more pain.

Don't torture yourself, just read cog and shoeless for a while and that should do it.

294 Cognito  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:32:33pm

re: #278 Sharmuta

No where in that article do they mention the horrible side effects of FGM or how many innocent girls die from this barbarity. That you continue to try to make excuses for the lack of full reporting on this travesty is disgusting, Cog. Please- stop now.

Yes, I'd like to see a full accounting of the horror of genital mutilation in every story that addresses it. But I know full well that this story is about a family of Gambian immigrants arrested for the act, written on deadline.

295 pat  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:33:02pm

Has anyone noticed that George Galloway has affected an Arabic accent. Like Hillary, he go wid the flo.

296 Desert Dog  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:33:14pm

re: #282 Cognito

Forgive me if I hesitate to take lessons on objective reporting from someone who begins a note, "Sorry, asshole..."

Thank you anyway.

Let's say a Reuters reporter is on scene in Africa, gathering info on a tribe that not only wears diapers on their head, but also likes to roast up every third baby born and have a little snack? In your little world, they should coldly and without emotion and without a sense of right or wrong just report on this like it is normal and not make any kind of judgment on this practice?

297 slokat  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:33:15pm

re: #156 Cognito

A right of passage is chosen by the person wanting to make the passage....

298 seekeroftruth  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:33:22pm

re: #277 Cognito

It's not hard to look it up and see proper writing style for journalist, Cog.
So in your own words " Please quote "

299 doriangrey  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:33:26pm

re: #294 Cognito

Yes, I'd like to see a full accounting of the horror of genital mutilation in every story that addresses it. But I know full well that this story is about a family of Gambian immigrants arrested for the act, written on deadline.

Just another bullshit rationalization, nothing more, nothing less.

300 Cognito  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:33:29pm

re: #284 doriangrey

Cog, you have no morals or ethics, and quite frankly are both evil and an imbecile.

Thank you for your discernment.

301 brickthruplateglasswindow  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:34:46pm

re: #289 Bob in Breckenridge

Exactly. Insult 90% so as not to insult the other 10%.

Yes, but when the 10% will likely cut your head off, or car-b-q your ride, truth gives way to....sensibility.

302 Dustyvet  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:34:47pm

A right of passage?

303 pat  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:34:48pm

Sheeesh. Leave Cog alone. He argues as he sees it.

304 Cognito  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:35:16pm

re: #287 Honorary Yooper

Yes, please, Cog. I think you've gone a bit too far here. The writer for Reuters here is not disgusted with it, IMHO.

I've defended you from some of the others here. However, this article has little excuse.

I don't need to know whether a straight-news writer is disgusted. About this, about war, about finances, about baseball, about Republicans, about my local city council, about a kitten in a tree.

I need facts. I'll decide when to be disgusted.

305 Intrepid  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:35:29pm

re: #260 brainwizard73

Yes, I've read stories of muslim women who say they love wearing their headgear because then they aren't "molested" by other men. But why would real men think that a woman who shows her hair is ripe for the pickins?

Should not the men control themselves? Why demean a woman's beauty by forcing her to hide it in order to not "excite" a man?

What they're really saying is that men are pigs and cannot control themselves when they get a glimpse of HAIR!

This issue I've stewed over quite a lot. And the intellectual/spiritual dishonesty to me is astounding.

You say that a woman must cover herself in order to not excite other men, yet you kill a woman who has been raped - forced to have sex against her will? It wasn't her fault, yet you condemn her and not the man who raped her?

Islam is of the devil, and not of a good and loving God.

306 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:35:33pm

re: #294 Cognito

Yes, I'd like to see a full accounting of the horror of genital mutilation in every story that addresses it. But I know full well that this story is about a family of Gambian immigrants arrested for the act, written on deadline.

With a nice final paragraph stating the line of the proponents! They had time to look that bullshit up, why not the real facts? Or do they not matter so long as they gave equal time to the Norwegian law as they did the barbarians?

307 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:35:40pm

re: #289 Bob in Breckenridge

Exactly. Insult 90% so as not to insult the other 10%.

Well, it's the 10% that's going to kill you. Makes a big difference.

308 Mars Needs Neocons  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:35:55pm

re: #297 slokat

A right of passage is chosen by the person wanting to make the passage....

And there it is. The one thing that keeps getting forgotten. A rite of passage has always been voluntary.

I've read articles on the castrati and strangely enough, not once is it called a rite of passage. This is similar.

309 doriangrey  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:35:57pm

re: #300 Cognito

Thank you for your discernment.

Hey, no problem, it's not like it took any enormous effort, what with your words right there for everyone to see and all.

310 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:36:07pm

re: #303 pat

Sheeesh. Leave Cog alone. He argues as he sees it.

He's a bullshit artist, and needs to be called out.

311 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:36:14pm

re: #281 realwest

Well if you want to keep tabs on folks with an agenda like a world wide Caliphate, the federal law is the way to go. Moreover, I don't know that the State law could be in addition to the federal law in practice (in other words, if you were convicted in Federal court you couldn't be tried again for the same crime in a State court and vice-versa). But you are correct that the Fed's have a lot on their plate and that being able to prosecute someone on the state level might be faster and easier to accomplish.

I could see local law enforcement start a FGM mutilation type task force if it were a major problem in a particular geographical area or amongst a particular immigrant or national group that could always yield good intelligence on the people in that group. I don't think that Federal preemption would apply to state criminal statutes given that states are the primary holders of police powers and that Federal criminal statutes are (supposed) to be related to the enumerated powers, like the regulation of interstate commerce.

I'm sure we would agree that to pile on charges here could never be a bad thing. If I were a prosecutor, I would want as much in my ammo can as possible. I bet we all would.

312 Roentgen  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:36:21pm

This horrific practice is carried out by some who claim they are doing it with their child's interest at heart. The hope is that mutilating the girl's genitalia will decrease libido (from pain, negative psychological reinforcement?), and leave the person less interested in sex and whatever social ramificatons might follow, and more likely to submit to the will of their male masters. While it follows that decreased libido might result in an overall decrease in sexually transmitted disease, this bullshit is handed down without any speck of anything that could be considered proof of an improvement in the life of any female in question, or society as a whole.
And while cruel and perverse, it is also completely irreversible.

313 Slumbering Behemoth  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:36:40pm

re: #275 shoeless

PIYF. Still, the typo made me laugh quite a bit.

314 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:36:47pm

re: #293 Mars Needs Neocons

Don't torture yourself, just read cog and shoeless for a while and that should do it.

I think I would rather rub Babs' bunions...

315 Cognito  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:37:12pm

re: #296 Desert Dog

Let's say a Reuters reporter is on scene in Africa, gathering info on a tribe that not only wears diapers on their head, but also likes to roast up every third baby born and have a little snack? In your little world, they should coldly and without emotion and without a sense of right or wrong just report on this like it is normal and not make any kind of judgment on this practice?

They should report the horrible practice. Absolutely. And describe whether it's regarded as normal in this hellish village, so the rest of us can pass judgment right away.

316 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:37:12pm

re: #301 brickthruplateglasswindow

Got to the point first, I see.

317 Inquisitive  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:37:32pm

Well I typed one long comment and deleted it and couple short ones and deleted them so I wouldn't get deleted, so I guess I will just say
"deleted you deleted people and your deleted rite of passage and deleted you deleted for the way you deleted reported on it"
How about some words thrown into this report like despicable, horrendous, monstrous, vile

318 JeremyR  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:37:36pm

re: #257 Cognito

You forgot "why."

IN many cases the WHY is not knowable. For instance, why would a man want his wife to not enjoy sex? A woman who enjoys it will seek it with her husband, a woman who does not will most often have to be coerced, or forced into it. Muzzi men must enjoy forcing women, wehat other why is there? And that is news not necessarily fit to print.

319 Cognito  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:37:43pm

re: #298 seekeroftruth

It's not hard to look it up and see proper writing style for journalist, Cog.
So in your own words " Please quote "

Quote what, exactly?

320 Mars Needs Neocons  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:37:45pm

re: #304 Cognito

I don't need to know whether a straight-news writer is disgusted. About this, about war, about finances, about baseball, about Republicans, about my local city council, about a kitten in a tree.

I need facts. I'll decide when to be disgusted.

You are incapable of reading the tone of an article? How the hell did you get through journalism school. I only had one journalism related course and it had a whole section on tone. (Especially how to get you point across without making it seem to be your personal belief)

321 Bob in Breckenridge  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:37:47pm

re: #294 Cognito

Yes, I'd like to see a full accounting of the horror of genital mutilation in every story that addresses it. But I know full well that this story is about a family of Gambian immigrants arrested for the act, written on deadline.

Now how in God's name do you know that it was written on deadline, which is implying no one had time to proofread it?

322 Charles  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:37:53pm

re: #312 Roentgen

This horrific practice is carried out by some who claim they are doing it with their child's interest at heart. The hope is that mutilating the girl's genitalia will decrease libido (from pain, negative psychological reinforcement?), and leave the person less interested in sex and whatever social ramificatons might follow, and more likely to submit to the will of their male masters. While it follows that decreased libido might result in an overall decrease in sexually transmitted disease, this bullshit is handed down without any speck of anything that could be considered proof of an improvement in the life of any female in question, or society as a whole.
And while cruel and perverse, it is also completely irreversible.

It's absolutely monstrous. And when Reuters publishes articles suggesting it might just be a "rite of passage,' or a good way to enforce abstinence, they are equally monstrous.

323 Mich-again  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:38:04pm

re: #294 Cognito

written on deadline.

Do you really think if the writer had a month to pull the story together it would have been much different? The writer left out the gory details because he was rushed by a deadline. HAHAHAHA. Yer killing me! Who writes your jokes?

324 NY Nana  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:38:25pm

re: #295 pat

I would rather not notice Galloway.

Ah, Shrill's accents...but the cackle? /Priceless!

325 Edouard  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:38:29pm

The attempt to neutralize moral judgment as philistine or provincial is a hallmark of leftist journalism, commonly emerging in ridiculous equivalence exercises such as this pro vs con formulation on the subject of female genital mutilation.

Let's be frank: it should go without saying that FGM is a sick, archaic practice. The sections in this article on "rite of passage" and proponents' arguments deserve nothing but contempt, as their only use is to water down moral judgment in the interest of comprehending different cultural practices.

Anyone reading this article already has at least a modicum of awareness of this cultural practice, though. The pro-FGM passages are thus superfluous. What remains is simply to report a repeat offense of a brutal, inhumane crime, prosecuted (rightly) as such by Norwegian authorities. FGM's "proponents" can go to hell.

326 kingkenrod  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:38:50pm

The phrase "rite of passage" is not accurrate. It's a feel-good Western contrivance of cultural equivalence.

The tribal cultures who practice FGM do not consider it a "rite of passage" they consider it a necessary practice to preserve their culture. And if you define their culture it is backwards, suspicious, ignorant, racist, violent, misogynist, and self-righteous.

But Reuters won't "go there" and report what they are because they continue to spread the lie that all cultures are equal.

327 Roentgen  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:38:55pm

re: #262 Charles

I'll go farther. I think Western wire services have a duty to express the horror of this kind of mutilation. But Reuters is more concerned with not angering their Islamic readers, so they bend over backwards to look "fair" -- and end up making excuses for Dark Ages barbarism.

This is the mainstream media's sickness in a microcosm.

This is why we gather here.

328 formercorpsman  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:39:08pm

re: #303 pat

Its not that.

Charles & Sharmuta have made in their own words, the best argument.

This is a brutal practice making inroads with civilized society, and it has no place in civil society.

The trend with international news has been to normalize this kind of stuff when reporting, by nuancing it.

By parsing the argument, especially for something that is illegal in that country, with noting how it is a right of passage, implies that just because it is illegal does not infer total abnormality, as other societies don't see it that way.

This has been going on a while now.

329 doriangrey  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:39:30pm

re: #304 Cognito

I don't need to know whether a straight-news writer is disgusted. About this, about war, about finances, about baseball, about Republicans, about my local city council, about a kitten in a tree.

I need facts. I'll decide when to be disgusted.

I honestly dont think you are capable of being disgusted, at least not by anything vile or evil, now good things, I'm sure good wholesome things turn your stomach every time you are forced to endure them. Hell, I bet the very notion of a Christian helping out a poor suffering soul makes your blood boil.

330 Mich-again  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:40:16pm

And by the way, it is idiotic and disingenuous to describe FGM as a female form of circumcision. That alone shows their asinine bias.

331 seekeroftruth  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:40:26pm

re: #319 Cognito

We've gotten off the topic Cog. Bottom line - Charles said it better than I can :

I'll go farther. I think Western wire services have a duty to express the horror of this kind of mutilation. But Reuters is more concerned with not angering their Islamic readers, so they bend over backwards to look "fair" -- and end up making excuses for Dark Ages barbarism.

This is the mainstream media's sickness in a microcosm.

I agree with his statement 100%.

332 Bob in Breckenridge  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:40:52pm

re: #307 Dar ul Harb

Well, it's the 10% that's going to kill you. Makes a big difference.

I know that. My point was that the MSM will insult 90% of their readers so as not insult the other 10% due to political correctness.

333 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:40:56pm

Female Genital Mutilation:

Physical Side Effects
Psychological Side Effects
Female Circumcision as a Human Rights Violation

Why don't you go ahead and email this link to the authors of this "dispassionate" article yourself, Cog. Perhaps in the future they'll know better than to spout more than just the islamic line.

334 Cognito  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:41:45pm

re: #329 doriangrey

I honestly dont think you are capable of being disgusted, at least not by anything vile or evil, now good things, I'm sure good wholesome things turn your stomach every time you are forced to endure them. Hell, I bet the very notion of a Christian helping out a poor suffering soul makes your blood boil.

You're wrong to an astonishing degree.

Which is why it's better, again, to deal in facts.

335 JeremyR  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:41:46pm

re: #292 Noam Sayin'

In his defense, you are an asshole.

Naw, he's just a hemorrhoid. The lowly part of an asshole that is downright irritating.

336 Mich-again  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:41:58pm

When a Saudi criminal has his arm cut off for petty theft, I guess its just a manicure gone awry.

337 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:42:05pm

re: #305 Intrepid

I don't pretend to understand these women, but many of them may think it is OK to do FGM, too.

I begin to wonder if there are not truly differneces in how people in the Occidental world view the world as opposed to people from an Oriental world view.

338 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:42:23pm

Hell- I'll make it even easier for you Cog, and I'll add this information to the spinoff links.

339 realwest  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:42:27pm

re: #228 doriangrey
"Charles, I say this with all due respect and more than a considerable amount of fear and trembling... This is your house, yours to clean when ever it becomes necessary." Um, what?
What have you said that would induce fear and trembling?
I mean, Charles isn't gonna ban someone simply because they disagree with what Charles says (assuming they aren't stupid enough to engage in a personal attack). I mean, hell, Cognito hasn't been banned has he?

340 Catttt  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:42:31pm

re: #294 Cognito

Yes, I'd like to see a full accounting of the horror of genital mutilation in every story that addresses it. But I know full well that this story is about a family of Gambian immigrants arrested for the act, written on deadline.



It's not what was left out that Charles is pointing out, so deadlines have zip to do with it. It's what was included - cultural relativism
- the paragraph that includes this: "...but is a rite of passage for young women in many countries, predominantly in Africa."

That is - horror in the west, but a nice little "you're a woman now, toots, aren't you a lucky girl?" in other parts of the world.

Having grandma cut off your clit with a rusty kitchen knife, while you scream and fight - cutting off a sexually vital bunch of nerves - making you feel less than a full woman - is NOT a bleeping right of passage. It's assault in Norway legally, and it's assault morally everywhere.

341 jaunte  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:42:39pm

Who loves a group hug, then?

342 Mich-again  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:44:28pm

re: #339 realwest

I mean, Charles isn't gonna ban someone simply because they disagree with what Charles says

So true. Look how long the nodroG got kicked around here. And FWIW, I am not sure he/she/they were ever banned.

343 Mars Needs Neocons  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:44:40pm

re: #268 psyop

Disregard the first regard on that post....

meh....

If your still here you might want to look at this.

I'm so pissed, blood is about to shoot out of my eyes. I'm not sure what I can say that isn't going to get me banned. I hate this kind of ignorant prejudice. We have a true enemy here and people want to brutally attack others in the same foxhole. GOD. (I am not even practicing religion in my life and this pisses me off.)

344 shoeless  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:44:46pm

Well, I tell ya what, I'm gonna do my best never to misinterpret Charles' commentary again... While I know he doesn't have all the time in the world, a sentence that read more like like this would have been good: "It should surprise no one that Reuters passed on the opportunity to condemn a barbaric act by throwing is supporters a bone by calling it a Rite of Passage."

345 formercorpsman  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:44:52pm

re: #340 Catttt

In addition, there are many folks who still look no farther that a newspaper to get their information.

If they have no knowledge of the subject, the article just put the score at a 1 to 1 match up between right and wrong.

346 seekeroftruth  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:46:07pm

re: #345 formercorpsman

Exactly. And the MSM is doing on this over and over again.

347 JeremyR  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:46:22pm

re: #341 jaunte

Who loves a group hug, then?

Everyone, give Cog a hand.

Smack (Ouch)

smack (ouch)

SMACK (OUCH)

Slap (oweee)

SMACK (mommy.....)

348 Intrepid  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:46:32pm

re: #277 Cognito

No, sorry. You're wrong.

So change it. Here is the story:

"In Great Britain today, amongst immigrants from the province of Ratagoonia, it was discovered that the young males of their community - all age 8-12 - went through the ancient Ratagoonian rite of "Yowsa".

Yowsa is the practice of cutting off one of the testicles of each young boy, without anesthesia. While considered by many to be barbaric, it is a rite of passage in their culture."

Why wouldn't this be worthy of condemnation by the reporting agency? Just because it is considered to be their own cultural practice, it is indeed cruel and barbaric to all thinking and feeling peoples. And even to the United Nations.

So why couldn't Reuters condemn the FGM instance as being against the UN stated policy on FGM?

349 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:47:04pm

re: #347 JeremyR

Everyone, give Cog a hand.

Smack (Ouch)

smack (ouch)

SMACK (OUCH)

Slap (oweee)

SMACK (mommy.....)

Kind of like Stalag 17 when they all go after William Holden?

350 razorbacker  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:47:46pm

Let's not be too hard on Reuters.

If there were a hygenic, realistic, logical, physical, medical reason for FGM, Reuters would have given it.

There's not.

So it's 'a rite of passage'.

351 Mich-again  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:48:25pm

re: #345 formercorpsman

In addition, there are many folks who still look no farther that a newspaper to get their information.

I have found they are the very best targets for reeducation. Especially the ones who read the papers every day thinking they are informed about things. When you get to explain some very basic things about what they are missing by just reading the papers, the reaction is usually, disbelief, then shock, then anger.

352 Slumbering Behemoth  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:48:41pm

re: #317 Inquisitive

I have typed many comments, and responses to comments, that upon reflection I simply "backspaced" and wiped clean out of deference to our host or the Lizard I was replying to.

Sometimes not saying something is the best bet, discretion being the better part of valor and all.

353 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:49:04pm

re: #348 Intrepid

True.

Honest reporting screams out that the additional facts of world condemnation need to be included in the story. If not, there isn't anything neutral about the story...it ignores the full issue.

354 Racer X  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:49:57pm

"We report, you decide".

355 doriangrey  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:50:39pm

re: #334 Cognito

You're wrong to an astonishing degree.

Which is why it's better, again, to deal in facts.

Only in your sick imagination cog, only in your sick twisted imagination.

356 pat  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:51:01pm

re: #328 formercorpsman

Oh, I agree. And you make an excellent point.

357 formercorpsman  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:52:22pm

re: #351 Mich-again

Hopefully there are many of them out there.

358 brickthruplateglasswindow  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:52:38pm

re: #316 Dar ul Harb

Got to the point first, I see.

GMTA. Or in my case...even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and then. :)

359 formercorpsman  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:54:42pm

Take it easy folks.

One beer and my head is spinning.

360 Charles  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:54:42pm

re: #344 shoeless

Well, I tell ya what, I'm gonna do my best never to misinterpret Charles' commentary again... While I know he doesn't have all the time in the world, a sentence that read more like like this would have been good: "It should surprise no one that Reuters passed on the opportunity to condemn a barbaric act by throwing is supporters a bone by calling it a Rite of Passage."

And if I ever write a sentence that bad, I hope someone will just kill me.

361 JeremyR  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:54:53pm

re: #349 brainwizard73

Kind of like Stalag 17 when they all go after William Holden?

No, Holden was an ass, but in the end he was right. Cog is wrong.

362 Inquisitive  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:55:35pm

rite of passage
Date: 1909
: a ritual associated with a crisis or a change of status (as marriage, illness, or death) for an individual

IF This was truly a "rite of passage" then it would be being done to girls
all of the same age----these little girls were all of different ages and are way to young for this "rite of passage" that these viscous, monstrous, vile people use it for. They would have been older, closer to puberty.

363 Catttt  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:56:03pm

re: #345 formercorpsman

In addition, there are many folks who still look no farther that a newspaper to get their information.

If they have no knowledge of the subject, the article just put the score at a 1 to 1 match up between right and wrong.

Excellent point. And something articles like this almost never mention - these assaults on young girls are usually carried out in nonsanitary conditions by female family members and are prone to infection.

Also - it's not just the lack of nerves in that area going forward - as we I think are all aware, it also involves deep, horrific trauma for the girl - and most of them are from nine to 12 years of age when this is done.

364 NY Nana  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:56:59pm

re: #338 Sharmuta

Hell- I'll make it even easier for you Cog, and I'll add this information to the spinoff links.

/Are they in words of no more than 3 letters?

I cannot even describe what I think of genital mutilation and the effect that it has on the women who undergo it, both physical and especially mental. Self-esteem? May G-d help them, and to see Norway encourage it? Norway? So the Scandinavian countries are now officially a part of Eurabia.

Striving for perfection, the cult of islam should also have a male mutilation. If women are allowed to be homicide bombers, just like males, then why not have a mutilation party for them...ulululating, sweetmeats, rifles being shot in joy?

365 Catttt  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:57:18pm

re: #360 Charles

Heh.

366 yesandno  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:57:59pm

Every once and a while someone shows up on the scene and is dumber then a box of rocks. In this case, it was Mo showing up and saying a "nick in time would be fine".

Hell, when they can't tell the difference between the "swirl" on the top of the ice cream cup and a religious name you are going end up with a lot of misinterpretations of just what a "nick" means.

We have reached this point in time because we refuse to accept that equality of opputunity does not mean equality in all things. Some civilizations are better then others. That is why we condemn the Mayans for trotting their captives to the top of the pyramid, putting them on the stone slab, cutting out their beating heart, and letting their heartless carcass fall back down the stairs. We thought that was less then civilized and it is no longer practices by large groups of people.

Time to tell everyone wanting to come here that we are superior, and if you want to be superior as well, you had better develop some manners, stop acting like barbarians, and begin to cherish life not death. And stop abusing your females, whatever the age. Otherwise, we are going to send you back where you and your sorry ass came from....

367 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:58:22pm

re: #361 JeremyR

The methods, not the players...

368 shoeless  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:58:27pm

re: #360 Charles

Wow... I never would have thought that you'd be quite as negative and aggressive as you seem right now.

369 Mars Needs Neocons  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 9:59:33pm

re: #368 shoeless

Wow... I never would have thought that you'd be quite as negative and aggressive as you seem right now.

And now he may have done it

370 Cognito  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:00:48pm

re: #368 shoeless

No need for that. He's just arguing his point. It's the who raison, as they say, for the site.

371 Intrepid  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:01:11pm

re: #337 brainwizard73

Yes indeed. I think you're right about that. It astounded me when I lived in Thailand how many young college students (with whom I worked) had been given over to other relatives for them to raise. For some reason, it seemed to be acceptable for the aunties and uncles to raise them for a while, instead of their own parents to do so.

That's not as extreme an example as FGM, but it does show that there is a real divide in Western/Eastern views of child raising.

And it shows that we have to work to understand them, and help them understand us.

It's just - WHERE DO WE DRAW THE LINE?

372 razorbacker  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:01:34pm

re: #368 shoeless

Wow... I never would have thought that you'd be quite as negative and aggressive as you seem right now.

Now there's someone looking to get the heave-ho so he can get some street cred with the Kossies.

373 Cognito  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:01:50pm

Whole raison, that is.

Raison, raison, raison.

374 realwest  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:02:26pm

re: #368 shoeless Well I don't know that Charles is being negative or aggressive out of proportion to the motivation for same.
I'm actually sort of surprised that Charles has shown as much restraint as he has.

375 doriangrey  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:03:11pm

re: #339 realwest

"Charles, I say this with all due respect and more than a considerable amount of fear and trembling... This is your house, yours to clean when ever it becomes necessary." Um, what?
What have you said that would induce fear and trembling?
I mean, Charles isn't gonna ban someone simply because they disagree with what Charles says (assuming they aren't stupid enough to engage in a personal attack). I mean, hell, Cognito hasn't been banned has he?

realwest, I understand and fully accept that my privilege to post here is solely upon Charles discretion, and I have at least on one occasion posted things which were totally inappropriate. Thus consanguinity reminding Charles that this is his house to clean as he sees fit carries with it the potential of reminding Charles that I have not always been the perfect house guest.

As for cognito being banned, well not yet to my knowledge, but that isnt my decision. Cognito has not only in this thread but a large number of other threads advocated this same brand of moral relativism that is truly repugnant. It is the very essences of the cancer that plagues the MSM and is rotting away the moral and ethical fiber not just of America, but the entire western world.

The bullshit cognito peddles is no different then the crap Goebbels peddled.

376 shoeless  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:04:36pm

re: #372 razorbacker

No, really I'm not... This all stems from me misunderstanding his commentary. He's since detailed his thoughts, and I agree with him completely and now understand what the commentary means. I merely made a suggestion, constructive criticism, maybe, and he wishes death upon himself if he were to ever write a sentence as poorly as the one that I wrote. Wow.

377 joecitizen  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:04:50pm

re: #329 doriangrey

I honestly dont think you are capable of being disgusted, at least not by anything vile or evil, now good things, I'm sure good wholesome things turn your stomach every time you are forced to endure them. Hell, I bet the very notion of a Christian helping out a poor suffering soul makes your blood boil.


that,sir,is idiotic and VERY unchristianlike...

378 realwest  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:05:43pm

re: #372 razorbacker
Yep.

379 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:05:44pm

re: #364 NY Nana

{Nana}- nothing about islam gets me more worked up than this barbarity. I likewise cannot fully express myself on this issue- although I think I fake it fairly well. I can't bring myself to discuss it more fully than I have tonight- it's too emotionally charged and causes me to become physically ill.

380 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:05:50pm

re: #371 Intrepid

Other than for purposes of cultural literacy, I don't know that I need to understand them or have them understand "me". I am prepared to accept a bit of cultural imperialism on this issue-if that is what it is.

381 doriangrey  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:07:01pm

re: #377 joecitizen

that,sir,is idiotic and VERY unchristianlike...

On the contrary, to quote Jesus Christ, you shall know them by their fruits....You sir, obviously dont know anything about what constituents Christian behavior or theology.

382 Charles  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:07:15pm

re: #368 shoeless

Negative? You have no idea.

This kind of story makes every nerve in my body scream out in horror. It's disgusting beyond belief what these poor children are being put through. They're maimed and damaged for life.

Then Reuters compounds the horror by making excuses for it, out of some crack-headed idea of "fairness."

And then people show up actually defending Reuters for this evil moral equivalence.

If I were really negative and aggressive, you would be banned right now for attempting to defend the indefensible.

383 Catttt  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:08:23pm

I know this is widespread and horrible. Keep in mind, however, that not all Muslims condone it. Also, it is often the women in the families who insist on the practice. I remember Ayaan Hirsi Ali indicating that her father did not want it done, but her - iirc - grandmother did it when she went back to Somalia (and when her father was not there).

Female genital mutilation is a common and popular practice throughout Egypt where every day thousands of young girls are subjected to this torture and mutilation. Religious institutions and ancient social customs are primarily responsible for the genital mutilation of female children. The full social and psychological consequences of mutilating the genitals of female children have yet to be evaluated. Preliminary evidence, however, suggest that the psychological consequences of female genital mutilation is very similar to that of rape victims.

What can be done to bring an end to female genital mutilation in Egypt and other countries? The use of force would only drive it underground and increase the resistance to cultural change. Educational programs that are directed to Egyptian families; the agents that perform the genital mutilations (midwives, doctors, barbers); and the social-political and religious leaders on the harmful and devastating effects that these procedures have upon women will contribute significantly to the elimination of female genital mutilations. Specific attention must be given to the effects of genital mutilations upon reproductive processes, the birth of the child and the marital sexual relationships. Men need to understand that their marital sexual relationships and happiness will be significantly enhanced when the female genitals are not mutilated. Finally, the education of women must be accelerated if these objects are to be realized.

Mohammed Badawi, MD, 1989

Source: [Link: www.nocirc.org...]

Also:

Sixteen countries—Benin, Burkina Faso, Central African Republic, Chad, Côte d’Ivoire, Djibouti, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Ghana, Guinea, Kenya, Niger, Senegal, South Africa, Tanzania, and Togo—have enacted laws criminalizing FGM. The penalties range from a minimum of six months to a maximum of life in prison. Several countries also impose monetary fines. In Egypt, the Ministry of Health issued a decree declaring FGM unlawful and punishable under the Penal Code.

There have been reports of prosecutions or arrests in cases involving FGM in several African countries, including Burkina Faso, Egypt, Ghana, Senegal, and Sierra Leone.

Source: [Link: www.reproductiverights.org...]

384 Catttt  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:09:07pm

re: #368 shoeless

Wow... I never would have thought that you'd be quite as negative and aggressive as you seem right now.

It's a tough room, kid.

385 doriangrey  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:09:14pm

re: #382 Charles

Negative? You have no idea.

This kind of story makes every nerve in my body scream out in horror. It's disgusting beyond belief what these poor children are being put through. They're maimed and damaged for life.

Then Reuters compounds the horror by making excuses for it, out of some crack-headed idea of "fairness."

And then people show up actually defending Reuters for this evil moral equivalence.

If I were really negative and aggressive, you would be banned right now for attempting to defend the indefensible.

And quite honestly sometimes you are way to compassionate and understanding. (Sometimes that is)...

386 psyop  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:09:24pm

re: #343 Mars Needs Neocons

If your still here you might want to look at this.

I'm so pissed, blood is about to shoot out of my eyes. I'm not sure what I can say that isn't going to get me banned. I hate this kind of ignorant prejudice. We have a true enemy here and people want to brutally attack others in the same foxhole. GOD. (I am not even practicing religion in my life and this pisses me off.)

Speaking of Glenn Beck.... (see bold text)

Now on the the referenced post...
Yeah, anytime it is possible to totally misunderstand something (especially religion), there will be vast multitudes waiting to be part of the ignorance...

387 shoeless  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:09:30pm

re: #382 Charles

Now wait! I never tried to defend anything. This all started because I misunderstood your commentary and that was all that I said. I don't think that you're being fair by saying that I was trying to defend such an act.

388 doriangrey  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:10:38pm

re: #387 shoeless

Now wait! I never tried to defend anything. This all started because I misunderstood your commentary and that was all that I said. I don't think that you're being fair by saying that I was trying to defend such an act.

Sometimes the very best thing you can do is admit you made a mistake and then STFD and STFU....

389 Cognito  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:10:38pm

re: #375 doriangrey


As for cognito being banned, well not yet to my knowledge, but that isnt my decision. Cognito has not only in this thread but a large number of other threads advocated this same brand of moral relativism that is truly repugnant. It is the very essences of the cancer that plagues the MSM and is rotting away the moral and ethical fiber not just of America, but the entire western world.

The bullshit cognito peddles is no different then the crap Goebbels peddled.

That's really quite a collection of assertions.

I'll respond by saying I don't believe in moral relativism for a moment, and if you think that was my point on this thread -- that somehow genital mutilation is all right in Africa -- you're mistaken.

The other business requires no response.

390 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:11:13pm

The first rule of hole digging is to know when to stop.

391 shoeless  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:11:29pm

re: #388 doriangrey

I did admit that I misunderstood his commentary, did I not?

392 joecitizen  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:11:34pm

re: #361 JeremyR

No, Holden was an ass, but in the end he was right. Cog is wrong.


cog is wrong so let's slap him around? punk.

393 Mars Needs Neocons  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:11:41pm

re: #386 psyop

Speaking of Glenn Beck.... (see bold text)

Now on the the referenced post...
Yeah, anytime it is possible to totally misunderstand something (especially religion), there will be vast multitudes waiting to be part of the ignorance...

Yeah, I noticed I've been doing that a lot.

394 doriangrey  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:11:48pm

re: #389 Cognito

Bla bla bla bullshit.


Ya..............right............................. .................

395 simonml  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:12:23pm

I didn't read the whole thread b/c I came in late, but my two cents.

Female circumcision is a euphemism for physical mutilation. In my experience it usually involves excision of the clitoris and infibulation. This practice ensures that a female will "never stray from her husband" because she is prohibited from enjoying sexual activity. It is among the most base misogynistic practices in the entire world. Disgusting does not even begin to describe this.

396 doriangrey  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:12:48pm

re: #391 shoeless

I did admit that I misunderstood his commentary, did I not?

But ya missed the whole, sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up part...

397 bebe's boobs destroy  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:12:49pm

Wow. Is that Stinky over there in the on deck circle?

398 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:13:39pm

re: #387 shoeless

You then went on to suggest to Charles, several times, how he should phrase his commentary. YOU misunderstood, and thought that was somehow Charles' fault. YOU need to be able to keep up, and stop whining and blaming others because your reading comprehension skills need work. Not Charles's or any one else's problem.

399 doriangrey  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:14:15pm

re: #397 bebe's boobs destroy

Wow. Is that Stinky over there in the on deck circle?

Sure looks like it to me... which is of course my que to........Sit the fuck down and Shut the Fuck up..........

400 Slumbering Behemoth  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:14:19pm

re: #329 doriangrey

I honestly dont think you are capable of being disgusted, at least not by anything vile or evil, now good things, I'm sure good wholesome things turn your stomach every time you are forced to endure them. Hell, I bet the very notion of a Christian helping out a poor suffering soul makes your blood boil.

Ya know, Dorian, it is entirely possible to disagree with/debate against Cognito without having to resort to such ridiculous, unsubstantiated ad hominem attacks.

I do not agree with Cog on many things, but no where have I seen Cog express the kinds of sentiments you accuse him/her of having.

401 Catttt  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:14:39pm

re: #388 doriangrey

Sometimes the very best thing you can do is admit you made a mistake and then STFD and STFU....

When my cousin Weezy (for Louise) came home from her first day in school and was asked "what did you learn?" she said "to sit down and be kiat (she had a cute lisp then)."

402 joecitizen  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:15:49pm

re: #375 doriangrey

realwest, I understand and fully accept that my privilege to post here is solely upon Charles discretion, and I have at least on one occasion posted things which were totally inappropriate. Thus consanguinity reminding Charles that this is his house to clean as he sees fit carries with it the potential of reminding Charles that I have not always been the perfect house guest.

As for cognito being banned, well not yet to my knowledge, but that isnt my decision. Cognito has not only in this thread but a large number of other threads advocated this same brand of moral relativism that is truly repugnant. It is the very essences of the cancer that plagues the MSM and is rotting away the moral and ethical fiber not just of America, but the entire western world.

The bullshit cognito peddles is no different then the crap Goebbels peddled.


comparing a fellow Lizard,even a contrary one,to goebbels should,in my opinion,be a banning offense...

403 shoeless  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:15:51pm

re: #398 CapeCoddah

I never said that it was anyone's problem and I didn't blame Charles for anything.

404 Intrepid  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:16:42pm

re: #380 brainwizard73

I think there are things we can learn from them - concepts of taking care of one's parents when they are older, for example - that will enhance us.

But there are a great deal of things they can learn from us! Personal liberty, individuality, keeping our "leaders" accountable, for example.

The divide is great, but it can be breached.

405 razorbacker  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:16:55pm

re: #395 simonml

I didn't read the whole thread b/c I came in late, but my two cents.

Female circumcision is a euphemism for physical mutilation. In my experience it usually involves excision of the clitoris and infibulation. This practice ensures that a female will "never stray from her husband" because she is prohibited from enjoying sexual activity. It is among the most base misogynistic practices in the entire world. Disgusting does not even begin to describe this.

Sorry, I'm slow tonight. I don't get it. There are no other reasons to leave a husband than sexual pleasure?

406 Catttt  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:17:35pm

re: #403 shoeless

I never said that it was anyone's problem and I didn't blame Charles for anything.

Ok. Let it go now.

407 simonml  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:18:18pm

re: #405 razorbacker

Sorry, I'm slow tonight. I don't get it. There are no other reasons to leave a husband than sexual pleasure?

So goes their reasoning.

I meant my comment to show that the entire process was flawed. Theory, practice, results, etc.

408 bebe's boobs destroy  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:18:21pm

re: #405 razorbacker

No, its ostensibly so the woman won't cheat.

409 joecitizen  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:19:17pm

re: #381 doriangrey

On the contrary, to quote Jesus Christ, you shall know them by their fruits....You sir, obviously dont know anything about what constituents Christian behavior or theology.

when you learn to spell,perhaps we'll speak on this at length..

410 Cognito  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:19:54pm

re: #405 razorbacker

Sorry, I'm slow tonight. I don't get it. There are no other reasons to leave a husband than sexual pleasure?

It's an inherently insecure practice. It's driven by fear that your new bride would of course find greater pleasure with other men.

411 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:20:15pm

re: #403 shoeless

Not in those exact words, no. But, Suggesting alternate phrasing, and your continual whining, right up to this second, make me grind my teeth. Your arguments are childish and annoying, and you are quickly becoming a frustrating pain in the ass. Grow up, or, may I suggest a link more suited to your cognitive level?
[Link: home.disney.go.com...]

412 realwest  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:20:33pm

re: #375 doriangrey Dorian, my friend, I stand by what I said. I've disagreed on issues with Charles out here - respectfully disagreed - and he hasn't banned me. Just don't say truly stupid or hateful things, attack Charles personally, don't call for genocide and don't talk about abortion (or maybe religion in general) and I think you'll be fine.
BUT, having said all that, I have to say that:
"The bullshit cognito peddles is no different then the crap Goebbels peddled." is wrong and intemperate. To say the least.
Cognito and I have "crossed swords" on occasion and there have been times when I've been pissed off because sometimes otherwise worthwhile and informative threads become all about Cognito (and not always his fault, either) but comparing what Congito "peddles" with what Goebbels peddled is just totally wrong.
I think you have let your anger get in the way of your good judgement and wish you would retract that statement.

413 Catttt  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:21:55pm

re: #405 razorbacker

Sorry, I'm slow tonight. I don't get it. There are no other reasons to leave a husband than sexual pleasure?

According to the FGM mindset on this issue, and I have read this type of thing mainly in commentaries by imams. women are weak vessels. They will be lusty and untrue if they get to have a clit. If the clit is gone, they won't care about sex so won't be unfaithful or leave. It is, indeed, idiotic, but that is the mindset.

414 razorbacker  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:22:23pm

re: #408 bebe's boobs destroy

No, its ostensibly so the woman won't cheat.

The number of women who will 'sleep with' a man just because he'll talk nicely to them, or pay them some small attention, or just freaking notice them is astonishing. Many of these women don't do it for sexual pleasure, they do it for other reasons.

Well, that's what I've heard, anyway.

415 shoeless  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:24:10pm

re: #411 CapeCoddah

Not in those exact words, no. But, Suggesting alternate phrasing, and your continual whining, right up to this second, make me grind my teeth. Your arguments are childish and annoying, and you are quickly becoming a frustrating pain in the ass. Grow up, or, may I suggest a link more suited to your cognitive level?
[Link: home.disney.go.com...]

Your comment is interesting. You call me childish, but your the one resorting to name calling. OK. I'll be sure not to participate on this site again. I'd hate to make you grind your teeth and uncomfortable.

416 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:24:16pm

re: #404 Intrepid

True enough. Never a bad thing to learn. Just as long as we don't lose our ability to evaluate, discern and discriminate amongst what is good/healthy and bad/unhealthy.

Alright, after this threat I need a "Barack Obama managed to wipe his behind with one sheet of toilet paper" thread...I need to lighten the mood.

417 Catttt  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:24:20pm

re: #412 realwest

I agree. I often disagree with Cognito, but I believe he is honorable, that he believes certain things and states them in a civil manner (at least always, to me, he has been quite the gentleman, even though he may totally disagree with me on something).

418 Cognito  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:24:45pm

re: #413 Catttt

According to the FGM mindset on this issue, and I have read this type of thing mainly in commentaries by imams. women are weak vessels. They will be lusty and untrue if they get to have a clit. If the clit is gone, they won't care about sex so won't be unfaithful or leave. It is, indeed, idiotic, but that is the mindset.

I've always been completely boggled that the women in these places are often the people who perpetuate the practice. Not only of genital mutilation, but of any number of oppressive traditions.

I don't get that, at all.

But: It does provide a ray of hope, I think. The hope that one day women in these places will shrug off their oppressors and move into the light of modern civilization.

419 yesandno  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:25:11pm

In a culture where women are chattel, FGM is regarded no differently then branding of cattle to some. Women accept the practice because where it has been so ingrained over the generations, they cannot marry well if they have not been victims to the practice. There is constant cultural reinforcement at all levels. A women left unmarried probably faces more then shame...she remains a burden to her parents, remains unmarried without children....she sacrifices her nature if the unnatural act is not performed.

There are cultural practices that don't make sense to a lot of us....

there is no logical reason on heaven or earth, however, for this practice.

It should be outlawed. Everywhere. Now. No Vacilation...period.

420 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:25:29pm

re: #415 shoeless

This one is starting to smell...the "name calling" accusation is a dead giveaway.

421 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:25:48pm

re: #416 brainwizard73

I meant "thread" in the first sentance of the second paragraph..."thread" not "threat"...geez I am batting about .185 tonight on this stuff.

422 razorbacker  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:26:25pm

re: #415 shoeless

Your comment is interesting. You call me childish, but your the one resorting to name calling. OK. I'll be sure not to participate on this site again. I'd hate to make you grind your teeth and uncomfortable.

Come on, a shoeless person should have developed tougher callous than that.

423 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:26:36pm

re: #415 shoeless

What name did I call you?

424 shoeless  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:26:54pm

re: #420 CapeCoddah


Smell? You called me a frustrating pain in the ass... where am I wrong?

425 Cognito  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:27:03pm

re: #418 Cognito

And just to be clear, 'shrug off' isn't meant to minimize the difficulty of the act. These women live under heavy-handed rule that offers almost no chance for escape.

426 realwest  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:28:02pm

re: #372 razorbacker
How's about this old trick: "I'll be sure not to participate on this site again." [#415]?

427 NY Nana  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:28:07pm

re: #379 Sharmuta

Sharm,

As a mother of a daughter, and the grandmother of 2 little girls, and the mother in law of 2 daughters in law?

I am a retired RN, and it really takes a lot to make me feel sick to my stomach...but just the thought of this kind of barbarity, and females who feel so inferior already, allowing it to be done, and assisting in it, for their daughters?

I shudder, and feel little hope for them ever being liberated. They are too subjugated, and too used to not only being second-class citizens at best, and brainwashed zombies at the worst.

I do not think that giving birth can be an easy experience.

And look what happens to the Ayaan Hirsis and Dr. Wafa Sultans that dare to become enlightened..

{Sharm}

Off to sleep....g'nite all. Sweet dreams.

428 Catttt  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:28:26pm

re: #418 Cognito

I've always been completely boggled that the women in these places are often the people who perpetuate the practice. Not only of genital mutilation, but of any number of oppressive traditions.

I don't get that, at all.

But: It does provide a ray of hope, I think. The hope that one day women in these places will shrug off their oppressors and move into the light of modern civilization.

Yes. I feel - but don't know - that some of this is driven by an "it happened to me - you are not going to escape it" thing. I think the trauma is internalized and then passed on via the practice, much as other forms of child abuse are passed on in each generation.

429 shoeless  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:29:01pm

re: #426 realwest

Hmm, you missed the sarcasm... hate when that happens...

430 razorbacker  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:30:22pm

re: #426 realwest

They came in the same old way. And they died in the same old way.

431 Slumbering Behemoth  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:30:56pm

re: #374 realwest

Well I don't know that Charles is being negative or aggressive out of proportion to the motivation for same.
I'm actually sort of surprised that Charles has shown as much restraint as he has.

One of the many reasons I admire and respect our host. He shows a great deal of reason and restraint in his commentary and moderation of this forum.

Where I in his shoes I would likely wield the ban-stick like a bludgeon, with one blind eye and an overly heavy fist.

432 Catttt  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:31:49pm

re: #431 Slumbering Behemoth

One of the many reasons I admire and respect our host. He shows a great deal of reason and restraint in his commentary and moderation of this forum.

Where I in his shoes I would likely wield the ban-stick like a bludgeon, with one blind eye and an overly heavy fist.

If you were the head honcho, I'd hide. :D Heh.

433 Mars Needs Neocons  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:31:50pm

re: #429 shoeless

Hmm, you missed the sarcasm... hate when that happens...

Next time /
Only the king lizard can be understood without it.

434 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:32:03pm

re: #424 shoeless

"Smell"/ "What's that smell" is another thing you don't "get". Figure it out, the answers are before your eyes.
As for the "frustrating pain in the ass", again, back to cognitive skills,that is an observation, not name calling when it is true, and backed by the majority of relevant opinion.
Grow up, then come on back.

435 razorbacker  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:32:25pm

re: #429 shoeless

Hmm, you missed the sarcasm... hate when that happens...

I don't use the tag myself, either. It's caused no end of hard feelings.

But there is always 'Either I'm not smart enough to do this right, or you're not smart enough to understand.'

436 Racer X  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:32:49pm

re: #426 realwest

How's about this old trick: "I'll be sure not to participate on this site again." [#415]?

Disingenuous to boot.

437 realwest  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:33:16pm

re: #429 shoeless Yeah, ya know lots of folks miss sarcasm especially when it's so cleverly disguised.
That's why we use the "/" after a statement so folks will know we are being sarcastic.
Sorta like "It's obviouls that shoeless has read LGF for quite a while and knows the various protocols set out in the LGF FAQ's and in Charles "notice" before each thread.
/

438 Intrepid  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:33:29pm

re: #420 CapeCoddah

This one is starting to smell...the "name calling" accusation is a dead giveaway.

I'd note that he/she has been registered for over a year and has a total of 172 posts, at least 15-20 of which were made tonight.

Hmmmm...

439 bebe's boobs destroy  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:33:29pm

re: #436 Racer X

Don't ya just hate empty promises?!

440 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:34:43pm

re: #436 Racer X

/I'm taking my toys and going home, you are mean! Sniffle.

441 realwest  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:35:18pm

re: #437 realwest
PIMF obvious.
Sigh.
Listen all y'all it's been grand tonight as usual but I do have to get to bed now!
I hope you all have a GREAT EVENING/EARLY MORNING and that I get the chance to see you down the road.

Goodnight, all.

442 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:35:21pm

re: #438 Intrepid

Ding!

443 Intrepid  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:35:22pm

re: #421 brainwizard73

I meant "thread" in the first sentance of the second paragraph..."thread" not "threat"...geez I am batting about .185 tonight on this stuff.

Hey - just keep watching the ball, and you'll soon be up like Chipper Jones, who is currently batting over .400 for Atlanta.

Woot! Go BRAVES!

444 wolfie  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:36:18pm

re: #441 realwest

Goodnight, RW ! Sleep well!

445 shoeless  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:36:39pm

re: #434 CapeCoddah

I see so your ass is literally in pain right now? And honestly, I don't really understand how you got involved. I had a conversation (well maybe not as plesant as a conversation) with Charles. He's clearly done with that. But here you are, acting as if he needs someone to stick up for him.

446 wolfie  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:37:40pm

re: #443 Intrepid

Hey - just keep watching the ball, and you'll soon be up like Chipper Jones, who is currently batting over .400 for Atlanta.

Woot! Go BRAVES!

Can you believe the season he is having so far?!
I'm very pleased for him.

447 joecitizen  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:38:48pm

re: #445 shoeless

I see so your ass is literally in pain right now? And honestly, I don't really understand how you got involved. I had a conversation (well maybe not as plesant as a conversation) with Charles. He's clearly done with that. But here you are, acting as if he needs someone to stick up for him.

there are no private conversations on LGF..get with it..

448 NY Nana  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:39:25pm

re: #375 doriangrey

How dare you compare anyone to a monster like Goebbels? Do you even know who he is and what he said and did?

Damn it, that is one of the most ignorant sentences I have seen here in the 4 or 5 years I have had the privilege of posting here.

As a Jew, I shudder at what you said.

449 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:40:22pm

re: #446 wolfie

Can you believe the season he is having so far?!
I'm very pleased for him.

My wife has a major crush on this guy...so the fact that he is on SportsCenter an average of 3 times an hour means even more eye candy for her.

[jealous rage simmers]

Would be great to see a .400 hitter in this half century.

450 shoeless  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:40:52pm

re: #438 Intrepid

I get it, you assume that links to this thread will end up referenced on a moonbat blog. No, don't worry about that... I just don't usualy post. The only reason that I did was because what I interpreted seemed so uncharacteristic of Charles... To be clear I'm am now completely clear on what he meant. I don't disagree with him in the least.

451 LeePro  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:41:07pm

re: #431 Slumbering Behemoth

One of the many reasons I admire and respect our host. He shows a great deal of reason and restraint in his commentary and moderation of this forum.

Where I in his shoes I would likely wield the ban-stick like a bludgeon, with one blind eye and an overly heavy fist.

As would I, when you look back at the last, say, three or four nights...

And then there was that lovely episode coupla' weeks (?) ago...

    : : : still licking cuts and bruises : : :

452 joecitizen  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:41:14pm

re: #448 NY Nana

How dare you compare anyone to a monster like Goebbels? Do you even know who he is and what he said and did?

Damn it, that is one of the most ignorant sentences I have seen here in the 4 or 5 years I have had the privilege of posting here.

As a Jew, I shudder at what you said.

I got dinged down for suggesting it was a banning offence..in hindsight,I'll stand by those words..

453 bebe's boobs destroy  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:41:32pm

re: #449 brainwizard73

Hey, at least there is something on it to interest her while you watch it for hours straight. men.....

454 Racer X  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:41:47pm

Dogpile!

455 abolitionist  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:42:12pm

re: #447 joecitizen

there are no private conversations on LGF..get with it..

Actually, there are. But that involves some measure of advanced lizard-fu.

456 LeePro  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:42:31pm

re: #434 CapeCoddah

"Smell"/ "What's that smell" is another thing you don't "get". Figure it out, the answers are before your eyes.
As for the "frustrating pain in the ass", again, back to cognitive skills,that is an observation, not name calling when it is true, and backed by the majority of relevant opinion.
Grow up, then come on back.

Grill's up.

Coals're just about ready...

457 Roentgen  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:42:32pm

re: #435 razorbacker

I don't use the tag myself, either. It's caused no end of hard feelings.

But there is always 'Either I'm not smart enough to do this right, or you're not smart enough to understand.'

I salute you for being out there without the "/", as I'm the same way. There is some risk involved, but most of the folks posting here are very, very smart, and will see what you mean.

458 shoeless  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:42:52pm

re: #438 Intrepid

Ive really made 172 posts on this site?

459 wolfie  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:44:34pm

re: #449 brainwizard73

LOL !
Well, he's one of those special guys in baseball.
I'd love to see him pull the .400 feat!
(As long as he doesn't hit against the Cubs!)

Didn't he just pass some milestone for switch-hitter homeruns? 400?

460 Roentgen  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:44:36pm

re: #443 Intrepid

Hey - just keep watching the ball, and you'll soon be up like Chipper Jones, who is currently batting over .400 for Atlanta.

Woot! Go BRAVES!

He got walked tonight. I talked to someone who was at the game, and they said that the Braves fans had something to say about this.

461 NY Nana  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:44:52pm

re: #452 joecitizen

I got dinged down for suggesting it was a banning offence..in hindsight,I'll stand by those words..

You were right, and I purposely will not use what he said in a quote.

Even after over 60 years, the pain is still with me...I was born in 1938, and remember more than I would like to. But we cannot afford to forget. I was blessed to be born here...

And people are already forgetting 9/11....

462 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:45:20pm

re: #445 shoeless

LOL, Charles hardly needs me or anyone else to speak for him.
Certainly not your editing suggestions. Again, the most appropriate response seems to be simply, Grow Up!You really need to work on your debating skills, along with your reading comprehension, and attitude. Attitude is everything!

463 Slumbering Behemoth  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:45:25pm

re: #379 Sharmuta

Sharm, I think you've expressed yourself and your opinions quite well on this thread. In fact, I might even go so far as to say that you've "pwned" it.

Your commentary has been intelligent, reasoned, succinct, and respectful, and (as a "dood") I appreciate you sharing your perspective on this topic.

464 swamprat  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:46:20pm

Terrible. No debating skills. No argument. Very bad imitation of a misunderstood poster. I can't believe what passes for a troll nowadays. No links, no logic strings, no rhetoric, no facts, no claims............hardly a troll at all......barely an imp, I'd say. Minigun, Gordon, that "republican-like-me" idiot, those were trolls! But this? PAUGH! YUCK!....No meat. No soul. Little snide crosswise half snipes. I've seen Charles ban good trolls, right when we were harvesting their haunches. This one is not worth the effort. Too small. Throw it back!

465 Mars Needs Neocons  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:46:38pm

re: #458 shoeless

Ive really made 172 posts on this site?

Kinda catches you by surprise.

Just watch how you say things a bit more and you might be around for a lot more posts.

466 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:47:08pm

re: #453 bebe's boobs destroy

Easy now. This isn't a theocratic state where the woman has to watch what I watch...she is free to do whatever she wants. I can even handle the drooling and panting...

...as long as I get to hold the remote.

467 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:47:22pm

re: #456 LeePro

LOL, filleting the steaks right now, fresh meat.

468 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:47:40pm

re: #463 Slumbering Behemoth

Thanks, {Sleepy B}. And you're right- Charles is a most gracious host. Too bad all of his guest can't be likewise as gracious and polite.

469 Mars Needs Neocons  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:48:29pm

re: #464 swamprat

Terrible. No debating skills. No argument. Very bad imitation of a misunderstood poster. I can't believe what passes for a troll nowadays. No links, no logic strings, no rhetoric, no facts, no claims............hardly a troll at all......barely an imp, I'd say. Minigun, Gordon, that "republican-like-me" idiot, those were trolls! But this? PAUGH! YUCK!....No meat. No soul. Little snide crosswise half snipes. I've seen Charles ban good trolls, right when we were harvesting their haunches. This one is not worth the effort. Too small. Throw it back!

Give him a chance to grow, he may have some potential.

470 swamprat  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:49:48pm

re: #469 Mars Needs Neocons
OK. No harm there.

471 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:49:59pm

re: #459 wolfie

LOL !
Well, he's one of those special guys in baseball.
I'd love to see him pull the .400 feat!
(As long as he doesn't hit against the Cubs!)

Didn't he just pass some milestone for switch-hitter homeruns? 400?

Can't say I know about the home run stat.

My interest would be keen if there were a ".400" race like we saw with Sosa/McGuire. Imagine, say Chipper Jones and, say, Joe Mauer hitting .400 at about the same time...wouldn't that be fun to watch? You would need someone from each league, but it would be great drama.

472 Ma Sands  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:50:44pm

re: #382 Charles

Charles, you are a wonderful man, to see with such clarity, and have your heart moved, and put it into words, that which dishonors women, no matter their age. And then to provide this place for those of like mind to broadcast that truth throughout the world, to educate the blind or uncaring, and to give warning to those who perpetrate such that it will forever be unacceptable. At the very least.

I salute you.

473 razorbacker  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:50:55pm

re: #457 Roentgen

It doesn't always work. And I have, on a very few occasions used the slash when the sarcasm seemed a trifle thin even by my low standards.

The trick is to set your standards low enough.

474 Neo Con since 9-11  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:51:18pm

re: #458 shoeless

Ive really made 172 posts on this site?

Click on the green football next to your name and it tells you how many posts you're made.

475 Mars Needs Neocons  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:51:32pm

re: #473 razorbacker

It doesn't always work. And I have, on a very few occasions used the slash when the sarcasm seemed a trifle thin even by my low standards.

The trick is to set your standards low enough.

and that would be why / is my friend. I fear my sarcasm comes across dry.

476 shoeless  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:52:46pm

re: #465 Mars Needs Neocons

Probably not that many more, I usually just read. I really do like Charles' commentary. I also like the attacks that my intelligence has be subjected to because I simply didn't catch Charles' message in a one sentence comment. But hey, I guess the faithful lizards feel it their duty to demoralize those that may not read sarcasm exactly as expected by the group. I'm going to see about growing up now... I'll see what I can do between now and tomorrow.

477 NY Nana  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:53:00pm

G'nite for real..it will not be easy to fall asleep with these visions in my mind...

478 pat  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:53:22pm

OK. i have degreased the roast. Now who is steaming?

479 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:54:03pm

re: #478 pat

Leepro

480 pat  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:54:16pm

NYNana, Aloha and Hiamoimoi. Sleep well.

481 joecitizen  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:55:16pm

peace,sweet Nana...

482 pat  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:57:01pm

FMG is an extraordinarily important topic. Every High School that is taught the wonders reality of Islam should explain in detail the subject to 12 year old girls.

483 Mars Needs Neocons  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:57:30pm

re: #476 shoeless

Probably not that many more, I usually just read. I really do like Charles' commentary. I also like the attacks that my intelligence has be subjected to because I simply didn't catch Charles' message in a one sentence comment. But hey, I guess the faithful lizards feel it their duty to demoralize those that may not read sarcasm exactly as expected by the group. I'm going to see about growing up now... I'll see what I can do between now and tomorrow.

The thing is that your phrasing was remarkably troll-like. If they weren't banned I'd recommend you read Nodrog's greatest hits, I think you'd see why you came across as a troll. I've looked at your past posts and can't really conclusively say one way or another. But, I will tell you to not take things so harshly. Your responses provoked the responses you got. There are many ways to put things and not all of them have to be offensive.

Cog is a good example, you'll find that people tend to get most annoyed with him when he changes the thread to be all about him. He starts parsing meaning with a razor and getting technical to a ridiculous point. People then start getting pissed. He takes his defense of the MSM to a ridiculous level too.

Be yourself, control your temper, try to understand a lot of sarcasm passes here. I think you could have a lot to say, don't dissapoint.

484 razorbacker  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:57:31pm

I've been facinated by this Styen/MacLeans case up in BC, Canada.

Can you just imagine the case load of a 'HCR' that monitored LGF?

I mean, if you can't get your 'feelings' hurt here, you obviously aren't paying attention.

485 Mars Needs Neocons  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:58:23pm

Ok, that's my epic post for the night. Now I really have to go to bed.

486 LeePro  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:58:58pm

re: #467 CapeCoddah

LOL, filleting the steaks right now, fresh meat.

Well....... (slurp..........drool)

Looks like others think differently:

re: #464 swamprat

[snip]
PAUGH! YUCK!....No meat. No soul. Little snide crosswise half snipes. I've seen Charles ban good trolls, right when we were harvesting their haunches. This one is not worth the effort. Too small. Throw it back!

Looks like a judgment call!

487 razorbacker  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:59:14pm

re: #484 razorbacker

facinated-crap. If only someone would invent some simple way of checking spelling before posting.

They could call it something simple...spellcheck, maybe.

488 Slumbering Behemoth  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 10:59:21pm

re: #432 Catttt

He he he. If I were the head honcho, I would make excuses to sneak off with the Lizardettes to somewhere more private.

/imapig

489 shoeless  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 11:02:33pm

re: #483 Mars Needs Neocons

I honestly think my temper is in check. I really did just post because of the commentary. I was simply disagreeing with that, at the time and with my current understanding. You can't just blame the reader when something that you wrote was not correctly understood by everyone that reads it, as I have been accused of being a simpleton for not understanding Charles' commentary. I suppose it would be fine to say that if the site were only meant to spread a message to regular visitors. I'm guessing that given the sites notoriety, a clear message to all would be desired.

I'm not sure what constitutes a troll posting, however.

490 LeePro  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 11:03:27pm

re: #478 pat

OK. i have degreased the roast. Now who is steaming?

#456

; D

491 Slumbering Behemoth  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 11:05:16pm

re: #451 LeePro

What happened a couple of weeks ago?

492 Cognito  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 11:08:29pm

re: #489 shoeless

Be cool.

When disagreeing among friends, I've found that sometimes it's best to make your point, make your case, and then make your exit.

493 pat  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 11:09:18pm

Cut to the chase here. Which one feels that any girl should have her clitoris, labia, and upper vaginal track cut out, and then have the vagina sewed closed by a strange chuckling man dressed in filthy rags who says he is doing it for Allah?

494 seekeroftruth  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 11:10:46pm

re: #489 shoeless

You would do well to follow Mars Needs Neocons very wise advice. I'll one piece of my own: When you are visiting a blog, do not tell the blogger how to write his posts. It is considered to be rude.
I see Cog is also offering you good advice as well. Take everyone's advice and you'll do fine.

495 shoeless  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 11:11:40pm

re: #494 seekeroftruth

Right, fall in...

Gotcha.

496 shoeless  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 11:12:14pm

re: #494 seekeroftruth

I didn't tell anyone to do anything. I made a suggestion.

497 seekeroftruth  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 11:12:34pm

re: #495 shoeless

Exactly - good start ; - )

498 shoeless  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 11:13:35pm

re: #497 seekeroftruth

Nothing like being in lock-step when it comes to thought.

499 razorbacker  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 11:13:39pm

re: #495 shoeless

Right, fall in...

Gotcha.

I say this more in sorrow than anger, but you're starting to remind me of my dog. He can't help going back to smell his own crap either.

500 seekeroftruth  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 11:14:29pm

re: #496 shoeless

Don't do that anymore. Like I said, on any blog, don't suggest how someone should phrase their posts. It's considered rude.

501 seekeroftruth  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 11:15:17pm

re: #498 shoeless

I tried. That's not what I said to you. So good luck.

502 lurking faith  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 11:19:51pm

re: #197 shoeless

You'll probably slam me again, or tell me to stop spouting off, but if you would have noted the moral emptiness of the article rather than implying that they endorsed the practice, I think that would have been more accurate.


I'm sure I'm late to the party with my response to this, but... If you think that Charles's characterization of the Reuters attitude as "After all, who are we to judge?" suggests Reuters is endorsing the practice, then you really do have a comprehension issue.

"Who are we to judge?" is a refusal to condemn evil.

503 LeePro  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 11:21:33pm

re: #491 Slumbering Behemoth

What happened a couple of weeks ago?

This thread.

Started around comment #161 which has subsequently been [deleted]. You'll not get details from me — not here, anyway.

504 zombie  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 11:23:22pm

Here in the West we reserve the greatest hatred and revulsion for child molesters.

Yet the people who do "female circumcision" to little girls are committing a moral crime that FAR exceeds mere molestation.

Imagine it this way:

Say, for example, a modern-day pedophiliac Jack the Ripper emerged and began snatching little girls off the street and horribly mutilating their genitals. Then he gets caught, and confesses. He says, "I just felt like doing it."

However, in the very same city, an African/Muslim "elder" does the EXACT SAME THING to the little girls of the African immigrant community in the area. He gets arrested, and confesses. But he says, "It's simply a custom in our culture. I meant no harm."

Are we to let the second man go?

This exposes the core flaw in multiculturalism, because many multiculturalists would say, "Yes indeed, the second man is innocent of wrongdoing, because we are imposing our Western values on his Noble Savage culture."

The people who enable this -- the muolticulturalists, including Reuters -- share in the culpability of the crime.

Let me say this clearly: WESTERN CULTURE IS SUPERIOR TO TRIBAL AND THIRD-WORLD CULTURES in most regards. Period. It's so self-evident that it does not even merit discussion. And the proof is in the pudding: We rule the planet due to the very reason that we have the best culture.

505 abolitionist  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 11:23:33pm

re: #498 shoeless

Nothing like being in lock-step when it comes to thought.

We're not in lockstep here, so we share a certain quality -- we can cross over bridges without destroying them. Can you? Please get over yourself.

506 Intrepid  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 11:23:52pm

re: #446 wolfie

Yep - if we could just get the pitchers well and in a good rotation, all would be fine.

Just love Chippuh, though. He's got the eye and the bat to bring the Braves into the post season, if he'll stay healthy!

507 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 11:31:13pm

As Reuters should have written it:
"The practice, also known as female circumcision, is outlawed in Norway and arouses horror among many people in the West but is regarded as a rite of passage for young women in many primitive countries, predominantly in Africa.

(snip)

The mother is pregnant with a seventh child and was deemed unfit to be held in jail. ...

U.N. agencies say an estimated 100 to 140 million women and girls worldwide have undergone genital mutilation, whose apologists say promotes chastity before marriage and fidelity afterwards by reducing female sexual desire. Around 3 million a year are believed to be forcibly subjected to it, and of these 3 million victims, many die of infections caused by the use of crude, unsanitized implements, and many more have life-long pain and crippling deformity."

508 razorbacker  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 11:32:07pm

Know the best thing about LGF Spy?

Now you can tell when the whole blog is dead.

One drink, a soak in the spa, and to bed.

509 Intrepid  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 11:32:24pm

re: #450 shoeless

No, I really didn't assume anything like that. What I observed is that you have been a member here since May of last year, but have posted fewer than 200 posts. That says to me that you are either a) very, very shy about posting on a site that you're registered at b) so very busy that you can find little time to post here, but have no qualms at questioning the host, or c) have been lying in wait to show your true colors.

Which is it?

510 Slumbering Behemoth  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 11:34:43pm

Shoeless:

Tighten up and thicken your skin scales. There is nothing wrong with disagreement here, but this is not a place of kid gloves; do not expect to have your statements accepted without being challenged. That is just not how Lizards work.

If you are gonna come with a contrary stance to someone/something, you better come correct. Reason, facts, and evidence are the watch words here. If you come here posting something you can't verify, expect to have your ass "fact checked" real quick. This is something that applies to all of us, not just you, not just newbies.

Yes, there are some here who will counter with invectives and foul language, but they are not at all representative of the whole. You are free to ignore them, if you wish.

511 jenv  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 11:39:09pm

Is being pregnant a get out of jail card if you're convicted? Nothing like holding women to a manifestly different standard.

512 shoeless  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 11:46:42pm

re: #509 Intrepid

It would be B. And the question was for clarification, and I got it.

513 Dustyvet  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 11:46:47pm

re: #462 CapeCoddah

LOL, Charles hardly needs me or anyone else to speak for him.
Certainly not your editing suggestions. Again, the most appropriate response seems to be simply, Grow Up!You really need to work on your debating skills, along with your reading comprehension, and attitude. Attitude is everything!

Umm, I've been following a trail of Beanie Babies for the past half hour.

514 shoeless  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 11:48:37pm

re: #510 Slumbering Behemoth

See that is just the thing, I didn't have a contrary stance. I merely misunderstood the commentary. I completely agree with the collective opinion that the lizards have of the article.

515 norar  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 11:48:41pm
U.N. agencies say an estimated 100 to 140 million women and girls worldwide have undergone genital mutilation

Really, Charles, let's talk of important things, like those poor Muslim males at Guantanamo, that have to suffer such Islamophobic thing like flushing toilets.

516 Slumbering Behemoth  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 11:49:41pm

re: #504 zombie

Let me say this clearly: WESTERN CULTURE IS SUPERIOR TO TRIBAL AND THIRD-WORLD CULTURES in most regards. Period. It's so self-evident that it does not even merit discussion. And the proof is in the pudding: We rule the planet due to the very reason that we have the best culture.

Phukit! I was backing Chtulhu in this election cycle, but I am now throwing all support behind Zombie.

Zombie '08!
/

All sarcasm aside, that was excellent.

517 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 11:49:52pm

re: #364 NY Nana

NY Nana, Norway is not encouraging it. There is a law against it, and the parents have been arrested, and the youngest girls placed in protective custody.

518 Intrepid  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 11:52:31pm

re: #458 shoeless

Ive really made 172 posts on this site?

Yep - check your own stats if you want to know. We can all see how many posts each of us have by clicking the avatars.

Why - are you surprised?

519 lurking faith  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 11:55:21pm

re: #368 shoeless

Wow... I never would have thought that you'd be quite as negative and aggressive as you seem right now.

Dude, first you tried to insist that he said something he didn't.

Then you blamed him for your failure to read carefully.

Then you proposed an "improvement" to his thread-heading commentary, and your suggested sentence was:
1. Dull
2. Wordy
3. Ambiguous due to poor construction.

Do you really not realize how insulting you've been here?

520 Intrepid  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 11:56:43pm

re: #461 NY Nana

Oh NY Nana - we'll never forget! We won't forget the ravaging mindlessness of Europe in the late 30's and early 40's, and we won't forget 9/11!

WE WILL NOT FORGET!

NEVER AGAIN!

521 kiwiviv  Fri, Jun 6, 2008 11:58:22pm

I am in Oslo right now - just watched the morning news - nothing about this story here! Typical

There was plenty of one-sided slant on Presidential race, however - total bashing of the Republican candidate. It never ends!

522 Intrepid  Sat, Jun 7, 2008 12:12:41am

re: #512 shoeless

Ok, then I'd encourage you to learn how to pose your questions without accusation.

I've read your posts, and you seem to be unwilling to take correction when you are wrong.

When older, more seasoned posters question you or urge you to change your tone, you have shrugged it off.

From experience, I urge you to not do that. To learn from the long-term lizards here. If you want to stay.

Just my $.02.

523 tarheelkate  Sat, Jun 7, 2008 12:46:22am

re: #254 pat

Both the Islamic authorities at al Azhar and the Coptic Pope have issued statements denouncing FGM and urging their people not to do this to their daughters.

FGM is illegal in Egypt, although widely practiced; it's usually done secretly and so is hard to eradicate. The wife of the President (who is harshly criticized by Islamists because she doesn't wear a headscarf) is leading a public campaign against FGM.

FGM is ancient in Egypt and apparently also in sub-Saharan Africa. It is not in the Qur'an but an agnostic Muslim friend of mine informs me that Islamists have "found" a hadith to support the practice.

524 Tamron  Sat, Jun 7, 2008 1:29:05am

Good people, half of this thread consists of off-topic petty squabbling. Considering the broad reach and impact of this blog, we have bigger fish to fry than who said exactly what, 20 messages ago. Leave it be.

The major subject of the thread -- an ongoing massive violation of human rights and dignity -- must not be ignored. Most certainly, Reuters screwed up with their biased agenda, but that's only smoke which is obscuring the central issue.

Here are some fascinating MidEast video links showing diverse viewpoints, pro/con FGM. (Watch 'em all -- this is a fascinating glimpse into a very different culture than what most of us grew up in. A minority of these folks are compassionate, while others speak from an ancient place and time, to the point of being genuinely barbaric.)

Female Circumcision - Testimonials

Debate Pro/Con Female Circumcision #1

(Note: The woman in black being interviewed in #2, is a doctor who is against FGM. Don't let her initial appearance throw you off.)
Debate Pro/Con Female Circumcision #2

Debate Pro/Con Female Circumcision #3

Debate Pro/Con Female Circumcision #4

Islamic Women's Rights: Female Circumcision

FGM Stats Across the World

Cleric Praising Female Mutilation


The next two links give insight into how women 'should' be treated:

Saudi Doctor Explains Wife Beating & Subservience in Islam

Saudi Lawyer Defends Wife Beating as Instructed in Koran

525 Cognito  Sat, Jun 7, 2008 1:34:27am

re: #524 Tamron

Very interesting. Thank you.

526 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, Jun 7, 2008 3:35:10am
527 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, Jun 7, 2008 3:53:22am
528 Annar  Sat, Jun 7, 2008 4:42:35am

Any male participating in such a process should immediately be force recruited, processed and, after the removal, be granted full membership in the local castrati choir. For his initiation he should take singing lessons while servicing prisoners at a state facility.

529 CrankyMcGuy  Sat, Jun 7, 2008 5:03:12am
530 RobCon  Sat, Jun 7, 2008 5:16:19am

Finally Reuters giver both sides of the story. I guess they don't want to unleash any fury like the Danes did.

531 antishock8  Sat, Jun 7, 2008 6:38:33am

Outlaw it now.

532 eaglewingz08  Sat, Jun 7, 2008 6:51:43am

FGM is a crime against humanity and should be outlawed. If muslim men want chastity the men should have their penises castrated and do everything through a tube, for equality sake. As for driving the practice underground, as a basis for not outlawing it. Hey, make it a criminal penalty for doctors not to report it, loss of liberty for fifteen years for each offense, or require physical exams of girls every year by gov't appointed agency, and then imprison parents for years for this barbarism, and it might soon get through to the culture. you can't hide the fact, it's not like smoking in the bedroom when the parents are downstairs. Of course it might lead to alot of whine and seethe sessions, but insane people tend to behave that way anyway, and it it were not this, it might be about something even more horrific, oh, like cartoons. Given the choice between whine and seething about outlawing this or publication of cartoons, outlawing and prosecuting FGM to the fullest extent of the law is a no brainer. And the fact that Reuters can't condemn the practice and calls it a rite of passage is the banality of its evil mindset. You could be sure if only republicans or jews practiced this ritual, Reuters might have strongly condemned in no uncertain terms, I wonder why that might be. I'll leave it for libnuts to try to figure that one out.

533 nyc redneck  Sat, Jun 7, 2008 6:53:35am

this 'rite of passage' is a cruel and brutal way to control women.
it serves no purpose but to perpetuate the male dominated evil that is islam.
stunning how these crude savages cling to this barbaric practice in the civilized world. certainly shows that our gifts of culture and positive traditions are lost on these fckers. they bow to allah, where they are.
imagine if lutherans or catholics decided to follow the crime of female genital mutilation. we would see life sentences for this hideous perverse act of abuse?
let's protect children. let's sentence these psychotic monsters to maximum. and not give them lenience because they say it is their 'custom'. we can not go easy on these sadists.

534 Cognito  Sat, Jun 7, 2008 7:27:38am

To you guys calling for the outlawing of genital mutilation:

It is outlawed.

The story is about people arrested and charged with it.

535 Attila the Hen  Sat, Jun 7, 2008 7:38:25am

This is nothing more than sexual obsession brought about by a sick, oppressed culture that screams chastity, but by its very nature proves otherwise. If Islamic men were confident of their masculinity, they wouldn't resort to the disgraceful, despicable mutilation of women to assure their fidelity or look to Sharia Law to enforce their oppressive, insane laws. What a wonderful culture where men take no responsibility for their unbridled lust and heinous crimes against women.

Since slavery is also a custom in the Islamic culture, I wonder, does Reuters consider that a 'rite of passage' or is that not condoned, because males are also taken as slaves?

536 cartoonboy  Sat, Jun 7, 2008 8:08:41am

opps-meant to hit + but hit - on #133.

537 Josephine  Sat, Jun 7, 2008 8:20:18am

Getting your ears pierced, buying your first tube of lipstick, being allowed to wear red nail polish: these are "rites of passage". Adults savagely mutilating little girls' genitals is brutal child abuse.

Muslims' obsessive focus on the female body is so stupid. You can chop off a girl's clitoris but she can still rebel in her mind and spirit.

I was in a shopping mall last night, seated in front of a women's clothing store. I thought most of the mannequins were dressed like hookers (including the shoes on display). A young Muslim woman wearing a hijab, with a young daughter and son in tow, went into the store to browse. What!? I was shocked; I would never have taken my young daughter in there because of the message it would be sending her about females. Yet this "modest" Muslim saw nothing wrong with shopping in the slutty store. Give me a break.

(Okay, really, more power to her. Maybe it's the first step towards freeing her hair and her mind.)

I never covered my hair but my father wouldn't let me wear slingback shoes, I had to negotiate (and pay for it myself) to be allowed to pierce my ears at 13, and eye shadow? Forgetaboutit!

538 Karagush  Sat, Jun 7, 2008 8:47:17am

Ok whats weird is that this is so totally not a wholly islamic custom. (I am just being fair.) Mostly its african, and has taken hold in Islamic culture, cause it goes with some of their Attitudes. Christians and animists do this as well. Women impose it on their daughters because they are devalued if they do not do it.

Inroads into banning the custom in Africa have been made by tying the practice to infertility, infant mortality and death of women giving birth either at parturation, or after. If a WHOLE village is educated at the same time, they seem to have better luck. So NGOs actually focus on educating the elder women of a region, rather than one person at a time. Convince the mother in laws, and you will get families buying brides that are uncastrated. (Yes, I consider this castration.) So If the mother-in-laws think the woman will be more fertile, bear healthier sons, the program seems to get a better result in turning of the cultural tide of FGM.

The problems with incontinence, infertility, Mortality, and horrible disgusting fistulas due to infibulation which result in women being OUTCAST cannot be understated. Many NGOs now focus on sending doctors to these regions where the type 3 (The most Horrendous and complete FGM) are common, to correct fistulas and reconstruct womens uninary tracts so they can once again rejoin their families, and no longer be outcast because of these side effects of the Type 3 FGM after childbearing.

What is most henious about this, is youre shunned if you dont, and also then youre shunned if you do, and have a child, get ripped up, and then heal badly as a result. I cannot express deeply enough how i respect the Drs who donate their time, going to African countries to reconstuct the women who undergo this torture.

Hopefully the increased awareness that infibulation leads to the feared and undesirable fistulas is going to continue. This has been the most effective aspect of the educating African communities away from the practice of this Barbaric Custom.

Footnote: some of the communities that do this, cut a slit in boys abdomans, and pull a loop of intestine out, as a manhood ceremony. They poke it back in, and stitch it shut.

PPS: also some similiar animist communities have a Concept of "Minghi" If something has Minghi, including a child, it gets thrown in the river.

And no I am not botherin with spellcheck this early in the day.

539 Ma Sands  Sat, Jun 7, 2008 9:19:01am

re: #538 Karagush

Thank you Karagush. That was a good piece of writing. Mind if I ask if you've got any online sources? Thanks. :)

540 paradox42  Sat, Jun 7, 2008 9:21:31am

I'm normally not a fan of mandatory minimum sentencing, but in this case I'll make an exception. If someone pulls this s**t, they should be locked in a 8X10 closet with a steel bed and a toilet that only flushes once a day for the rest of their lives. I don't care what you're culture says, I don't care what you're religion says, anyone who does this is lower than a cockroach and should be treated as the garbage they are.

541 Amy  Sat, Jun 7, 2008 9:36:53am

It's really quite simple. These people were arrested for violating Norwegian law. Whether or not this practice is considered "a rite of passage" in Gambia is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. Therefore, the reporters' mentioning that "fact" was TOTALLY GRATUITOUS.

Since the statement was both irrelevant and gratuitous, one can only infer that the reporters threw it in there in an attempt to introduce "the other side of the story." The problem is, there ISN'T any "other side of the story." No matter how the practice is explained, put in "context" culturally or whatever, it is still cruel, barbaric and indefensible by any member of a civilized nation.

As an imperfect analogy (but the first one that occurs to me), what if, when some member of the Sicilian Mafia was arrested for murder in the USA, the person reporting the story stated that back in Sicily, committing a murder to become a "made man" in the Cosa Nostra was considered a "rite of passage." Would that have any relevance to the fact that murder was committed here or to the need to punish the criminal?

542 Karagush  Sat, Jun 7, 2008 11:13:27am

Ma sands I am loosely quoting to UN reports and much I have gleaned from FGM reseources linked to by posters at this site as well as UN sources YES!

To be fair I do anthopological studies too and so i have a great deal of reading i have done over the years and text books that are remembered but returned.
All of this info is available online
If you look into the subject of fistulas being corrected in Africa, by NGOs, it will lead you directly into discussion of this horribly indelicate problem. Try googling FGM and Fistulas and African Women

543 Karagush  Sat, Jun 7, 2008 11:19:38am

whoops I just dinged myself trying to see who dinged me! I will do some research and see if i can find some good links. I will admit I am bad at that and so very shy about commenting on the board, remaining a lounge lizard instead.

Thanks Ma sands! for you and those who dinged me i will try to find the good articles to which i refer

544 Karagush  Sat, Jun 7, 2008 11:32:40am

[Link: www.fistulafoundation.org...]

says FGM is not responsible
too young women having babies without help, for too long, such as a 13 yo in labor for 6 days.

here is a page of links on FGM and Fistula, Most useful LOTS AND LOTS OF LINKS:
[Link: www.forwarduk.org.uk...]

lemme know how this works. Warning: you will be saddened and sickened

545 Ma Sands  Sat, Jun 7, 2008 1:03:08pm

re: #542 Karagush

I do anthopological studies too and so i have a great deal of reading i have done over the years and text books that are remembered but returned.


That is what I was fishing for, actually! Your words sounded exactly as if you had been steeped in the subject like that...........thank you so much! :)

And thank you for digging so I can study, also.....

546 Is it me?  Sat, Jun 7, 2008 1:51:13pm

I can't look at any of this FGM stuff with anything other than rage.
Thanks for the links (Kreuser? and Tamron) as I have been trying to get some links, esp web sites to do with charities for ages.
It's been most helpful
I am hopeful that more and more women from subsaharan Africa will start to work to eradicate this cruel torturing of young girls and even infants. It is the only way to undermine the centuries old traditions that have such a strong hold over the ignorant.

Having been restrained, let me state that I am behind all women in Islamic countries who wish to get rid of this barbarity.
In fact, if you want to get rid of FGM you turn it into MGM and do the same to men. I guarantee it would stop being a tradition or some sort of relgious right in about 5 minutes flat!
AAAARRRGGGG!

547 Tamron  Sat, Jun 7, 2008 1:58:10pm

One cannot help but be stunned by the double-standard imposed on these subjugated women, by males who obviously think the subject of FGM to be somehow frivolous and even humorous.

For example, in one of the videos linked in my post #524, one of the male 'authorities' being interviewed, in all sincerity, stated that a woman who became aroused (allegedly because of the pants she was wearing) should have her clitoris cut off (because it obviously was too large), and that would 'solve' her problem.

How fast would that chauvinistic barbarian back-pedal, if someone in a legitimate position of authority were to seriously suggest that he have his penis whacked-off (because it obviously was too large), based on the fact that he might become aroused due to the clothing HE was wearing?

So WHAT if he thereafter couldn't father a child the 'normal' way. There are methods of harvesting his sperm so that his genetic line would still continue, no problem. And most importantly, he would thereafter not be bothered by the embarrassment of becoming sexually aroused by that evil source of sensation 'down there'.

Size DOES matter: Male or female, if it's too large, snip it off.

Perfect logic. A true win-win situation.
.

548 Josephine  Sat, Jun 7, 2008 2:17:13pm

re: #344 shoeless

Well, I tell ya what, I'm gonna do my best never to misinterpret Charles' commentary again... While I know he doesn't have all the time in the world, a sentence that read more like like this would have been good: "It should surprise no one that Reuters passed on the opportunity to condemn a barbaric act by throwing is supporters a bone by calling it a Rite of Passage."

Christine, is that you?

549 traumakitty  Sat, Jun 7, 2008 6:06:04pm

I had a tour of the "new, modern" Hamad hospital in Qatar led by a 30-something Kuwaiti MD with a British accent, educated in the West. We were touring the Outpatient Surgery center "brand new,and totally modernized" when he proceeded to tell us how much better it would be for young girls now, to come here and have their "surgeries" in a clean, safe environment". A female Radiologist from New Zealand asked him point-blank if he meant circumcision. He said "yes". He went on to tell us that he and his medical colleagues recommended the "procedure" be performed on all "females" by the age of 7. She and I both left the tour at that point. There are no adequate words to describe how horrible this truly is. To perpetrate this on a child.


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