LGF

-RetweetWhite Supremacists for Obama

Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 7:11:57 pm PDT

An interesting report on support for Barack Obama in the white supremacist cesspool: President Obama? Many White Supremacists are Celebrating.

With the nomination of Barack Obama as the Democratic presidential candidate clinched, large sections of the white supremacist movement are adopting a surprising attitude: Electing America’s first black president would be a very good thing.

It’s not that the assortment of neo-Nazis, Klansmen, anti-Semites and others who make up this country’s radical right have suddenly discovered that a man should be judged based on the content of his character, not his skin. On the contrary. A growing number of white supremacists, and even some of those who pass for intellectual leaders of their movement, think that a black man in the Oval Office would shock white America, possibly drive millions to their cause, and perhaps even set off a race war that, they hope, would ultimately end in Aryan victory.

“He will make things so bad for white people that hopefully they will finally realize how stupid they were for admiring these jigaboos all these years,” “Darthvader” wrote on the neo-Nazi Vanguard News Network web forum. “I believe in the motto ‘Worse is Better’ and Obama certainly fits that description.” Just last week, Ron Doggett, a Virginian who has been a key activist in the Klan, the paramilitary White People’s Party and the neo-Nazi National Alliance, chimed in with this: “I hope Obama wins because in four years, white people just might be pissed off enough to actually do something. ... White people aren’t going to do a thing until their toys are taken away from them. So things have to be worse for things to be better.”

“Oh man,” enthused “Centimanus” on the white nationalist Stormfront website. “I am gleefully, sadistically looking forward to Obama as president. ... It will be a beautiful day when the masses look at the paper and truly realize they have lost their own country. Added “Fulimnata”: “To the average white man and woman, they could look at Obama and see plain as day that whites are not in control.” Another message, from “TheLastOfMyKind,” agreed: “Could it be that the nomination of Obama finally sparks a sense of unity in white voters? I would propose that this threat of black, muslim [sic] rule may very well be the thing that finally scares some sense back into complacent whites throughout the nation.” “Actually,” said another poster, “if Obama were to win, it would be the best thing that ever happened to the Klan. They would have massive growth.” And “TeutonicLegion” said that “a whole bunch of people will join us and find these boards” if Obama becomes president.

Even David Duke, the neo-Nazi and former Klan boss who is the closest thing the movement has to a real intellectual these days, sees clear advantages in an Obama victory in the fall. “Obama will be a signal, a clear signal for millions of our people,” Duke wrote in an essay entitled “A Black Flag for White America” last week. “Obama is like that new big dark spot on your arm that finally sends you to the doctor for some real medicine. ... Obama is the pain that let’s [sic] your body know that something is dreadfully wrong. Obama will let the American people know that there is a real cancer eating away at the heart of our country and Republican aspirin will not only not cure it, but only masks the pain and makes you think you don’t need radical surgery. ... My bet is that whether Obama wins or loses in November, millions of European Americans will inevitably react with new awareness of their heritage and the need for them to defend and advance it.”

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381 comments

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1 coquimbojoe  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:13:15pm

A match made in heaven. Racists unite!

/

2 Thanos  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:13:36pm

How did I know this was coming?

3 Typicalwhitey  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:13:44pm

I HOPE that if this is on the O's website that they CHANGE it quickly

4 Sharmuta  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:14:02pm
It’s not that the assortment of neo-Nazis, Klansmen, anti-Semites and others who make up this country’s radical right have suddenly discovered that a man should be judged based on the content of his character, not his skin.

The majority of these people are actually leftists.

5 Typicalwhitey  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:14:18pm

re: #1 coquimbojoe

A match made in heaven. Racists unite!

/


They probably have more in common that either side would like to admit

6 Noam Sayin'  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:14:50pm

Was wondering when something like this might surface.

Liberals... those are racists.

7 lawhawk  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:15:24pm

Once you go far enough around the bend, you start finding the same bugs masquerading as features.

8 Typicalwhitey  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:15:54pm

re: #4 Sharmuta

The majority of these people are actually leftists.

You are quite right Sharmuta.
Wade into the kossesspool some time. They are not only racist, they are anti jewish, sexist and homophobes.
They just aim their ire on Republicans and think its ok.

9 offendi  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:15:55pm

Racists for Obama.

Whither, Al Sharpton?

10 seekeroftruth  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:15:58pm

Great. This is going to feed right into the MSM message of if you don't vote for Obama, then you are a racist.

11 joecitizen  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:16:31pm

I would stand astride mountains firing at these bastards if they get their race war..I'm just sayin'

12 Thanos  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:17:07pm
Even David Duke, the neo-Nazi and former Klan boss who is the closest thing the movement has to a real intellectual these days, sees clear advantages in an Obama victory in the fall. “Obama will be a signal, a clear signal for millions of our people,” Duke wrote in an essay entitled “A Black Flag for White America” last week. “Obama is like that new big dark spot on your arm that finally sends you to the doctor for some real medicine.

Ever notice how the marginalized miscreants always think they have "millions" of suppoters when the creeps probably number under a hundred k? Reminds me of the RP Revulsion for some reason...

13 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:17:08pm

Obama has Ron Paul's base?

14 Sharmuta  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:17:18pm

re: #13 NJDhockeyfan

Obama has Ron Paul's base?

He does now.

15 looking closely  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:17:21pm

Good one.

I'll worry about this when there are enough Klansmen voting in a swing state to tip it (ie 5 minutes after hell freezes over).

16 Ringo the Gringo  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:18:50pm

Bad craziness.

17 Typicalwhitey  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:19:59pm

abu boo boo is still at it on the open thread.

Charles...WHY did you explain how to use the spy thing?
It's worse than crack cocaine!

18 Sharmuta  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:20:19pm

re: #12 Thanos

For me- I'm reminded of hagee, who wants to start a war with iran to bring back Jesus, except in this case the racists want the "messiah" so they can start a war. Sick.

Seems like freaks on all sides want to throw America under the bus.

19 nyc redneck  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:20:55pm

most americans won't vote against b.o. because he is black. they will vote against him because he is a commie.
it's that simple.

20 gop_patriot  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:20:56pm

What disgusting, creepy people.

Nope, I won't run towards these guys- no matter who becomes President, ever, ever, ever.

21 LoFlyer  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:21:22pm

The fact that the democrat candidate is black, and his rival was a female, speaks volumes for the gains made in America against racism and discrimination. No other country does as much as America to promote equality between the races and gender. When Obama crashes and burns in November expect our neighbors and the UN to scream racism and demand a role in electing American leadership. Frack 'em!

22 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:22:34pm

re: #19 nyc redneck

most americans won't vote against b.o. because he is black. they will vote against him because he is a commie.
it's that simple.

Or because he is an unqualified empty suit from the Chicago Democratic machine. It's all about the content of his character, or lack thereof.

23 opnion  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:23:05pm

The Obama campaign has kicked a lot of rocks & real creatures have crawled out.

24 nyc redneck  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:23:23pm

the klan and the nazis and rev wright aren't going to get their race war here.

25 pat  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:23:47pm

Ignorant pukes.

26 seekeroftruth  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:23:50pm

re: #23 opnion

The Obama campaign has kicked a lot of rocks & real creatures have crawled out.

It sure has !

27 pat  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:24:57pm

Obama is more ignorant than McCain. That is why McCain may get some votes in the end.

28 opnion  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:26:41pm

re: #27 pat

Obama is more ignorant than McCain. That is why McCain may get some votes in the end.


The sad truth is that McCain is only the default candidate. This election will be a referendum on Obama.

29 LoFlyer  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:27:21pm

re: #27 pat

McCain! The lesser of two weevils!

30 Opinionated  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:27:24pm

Helter Skelter 2008

31 the_flying_pig  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:27:53pm

It is all parts of evil Emperor George Soros' insidious plans!

32 funky chicken  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:28:05pm

re: #13 NJDhockeyfan

Obama has Ron Paul's base?

oh definitely

33 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:28:11pm

re: #23 opnion

The Obama campaign has kicked a lot of rocks & real creatures have crawled out.

He seems to be in perpetual damage control lately.

34 x-ray  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:29:21pm

These sick bastards just like the Kos kids are dreaming of their own special sanitized utopias.
The racists dream of purity of Race and the Kos kids dream of purity of thought.

Never any answers to the real problems just the constant repetition of their sick dreams.

35 opnion  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:30:17pm

re: #33 NJDhockeyfan

He seems to be in perpetual damage control lately.

That is the template for McCain to win. The Messiah of the left is really just a doofus.
Take away his teleprompter & Obama can not hang a coherent sentence together.

36 Opinionated  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:30:37pm

Buchanan, Ron Paul, now Obama, what subliminal odor do they omit that draws in all the crazies?

37 funky chicken  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:31:03pm

Sadly, they sound a bit like the "True Conservative" suicide voters who want Obama to win so the GOP can be reborn.

38 Intrepid  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:31:08pm

There are people who hate America, and they're not easily defined as left or right. They're just America haters.

They would destroy our country, these thugs, just as surely as would the socialists and communists.

For them, America isn't an ideal, it's a place to be ruled with an iron fist, where those who do not agree with their decrees or those who do not look like them are subjects to be used.

And we threw that crap off over a couple centuries ago.

39 Inquisitive  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:31:16pm

My bet is that whether Obama wins or loses in November, millions of European Americans will inevitably react with new awareness of their heritage and the need for them to defend and advance it.”

Win or lose we join in with this racist slime---how about -- NOT EVEN when hell freezes over.

40 nyc redneck  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:31:30pm

these are the same kind of haters as those in the trinity united church of christ.
separatist blame everyone else but themselves miserable bad people.

41 right_wing2  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:32:10pm

Makes me ashamed to be a white male.

42 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:32:11pm

Check out the assh*le with the "Smash Jewish Supremicism" poster.
That would get some high fives over at Kos. Circular.

43 opnion  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:32:29pm

re: #40 nyc redneck

these are the same kind of haters as those in the trinity united church of christ.
separatist blame everyone else but themselves miserable bad people.

44 Skul  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:33:35pm

Good grief! What ever happened to "I don't care for his politics?"

45 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:33:45pm

The Center for Responsive Politics reports that data for February, March and April of this year show Obama has outspent McCain’s campaign two-to-one on office rent, four-and-a-half to one on staff salaries and 25-to-one on broadcast advertising.

[Link: www.opensecrets.org...]

46 mitthrawnurdo  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:35:32pm

re: #45 hermeneutics

Yeah, but he's burning through his money like water. 114%, according to one of LGF's recent posts. And all that to dethrone Hillary, who hasn't even released her delegates yet.

47 lawhawk  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:35:33pm

re: #45 hermeneutics

The Center for Responsive Politics reports that data for February, March and April of this year show Obama has outspent McCain’s campaign two-to-one on office rent, four-and-a-half to one on staff salaries and 25-to-one on broadcast advertising.

[Link: www.opensecrets.org...]

That's easy to explain - Obama had to fight for the nomination, while McCain had things taken care of early. McCain could bank his fundraising, while Obama was busy burning through his fundraising at an incredible rate. And even then, Obama barely made it given Hillary's own prodigious spending.

48 DistantThunder  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:35:56pm

Notice how Obama is tearing the country apart with his own rhetoric

Clinging to his advisors.

49 Dave the.....  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:36:44pm

Recall that when Cindy Sheehan, Crowley (Democrat running for US House from Minnesota) etc when to Crawford Texas to say how much they hate Pres Bush, Stormfront and David Duke marched in solidarity with them.

50 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:36:55pm

Cubs win!

28-8 at home this year. Best record in Wrigley Field history.

51 Drained Brain  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:37:24pm

I don't care about the color of Obama's skin, although I'll admit to being concerned somewhat about the baggage he carries.

The racist troglodytes cited are to me nothing but a distraction from Obama's own deficiencies.

52 offendi  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:37:35pm

re: #34 x-ray

These sick bastards just like the Kos kids are dreaming of their own special sanitized utopias.
The racists dream of purity of Race and the Kos kids dream of purity of thought.

Never any answers to the real problems just the constant repetition of their sick dreams.

Maybe this is synergy for the kossies? Dumb and Dumber sort of thing?

53 Typicalwhitey  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:37:57pm

re: #48 DistantThunder

Notice how Obama is tearing the country apart with his own rhetoric

Clinging to his advisors.

Was there a liberal blogger who called Michelle obama a 'baby mama'?
It was on the scroll on fox news.

54 Dar ul Harb  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:38:01pm

re: #45 hermeneutics

The Center for Responsive Politics reports that data for February, March and April of this year show Obama has outspent McCain’s campaign two-to-one on office rent, four-and-a-half to one on staff salaries and 25-to-one on broadcast advertising.

[Link: www.opensecrets.org...]

Getting practice on expanding the bureaucracy, even before he's inaugurated...

55 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:38:22pm

re: #47 lawhawk

Well, even though Obama burned through money, he stlll has twice that of McCain, according to this source.

McCain has to reach out to new/undecided/Hillary voters. And that takes $$$.

I'm glad he's thrown away so much money on the primary though. Hoping, too, that Hillary voters "feel the warmth" of McCain's campaign.

56 Exdamyankee  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:38:36pm

What a bunch of douchebags... Unreal.

57 goddessoftheclassroom  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:38:42pm

I just read the following email from a friend. Out of respect to Charles and LGF, I'm editing some language, but you'll get the point:

Someone finally said it.
How many are actually paying attention to this?

There are African Americans,
Hispanic Americans,
Cuban Americans,
Mexican Americans,
Asian Americans,
Arab Americans,
Native Americans, etc.
..And then there are just -
Americans.


You pass me on the street
And sneer in my direction.
You Call me 'White boy,'
'Cracker,' 'Honkey,'
'Whitey,' 'Caveman,'
...And that's OK.


But when I call you N*,
K*, T* h*,
S*-ni*, C* J*,
B*r, G*, or C*,
..You call me a racist.


You say that whites commit a lot
Of violence against you,
So why are the ghettos the most
Dangerous places to live?


You have the United Negro College Fund.
You have Hispanic History Month.
You have Martin Luther King Day.
You have Asian History Month.
You h ave Black History Month.
You have Cesar Chavez Day.
You have Ma'uled Al-Nabi.
You have Kawanza.
You have the NAACP.
And you have BET.


If we had WET
(White Entertainment Television)
...We'd be racists.


If we had a White Pride Day
...You would call us racists.


If we had White History Month
...We'd be racists.


If we had any organization for only whites
To 'advance OUR lives,
...We'd be racists.


We have a Hispanic Chamber of Commerce,
A Black Chamber of Commerce,
And then we just have the plain
Chamber of Commerce.
Wonder who pays for that?


If we had a college fund that only gave
White students scholarships
...You know we'd be racists.


There are over 60 openly-proclaimed
Black-only Colleges in the US ,
Yet if there were 'White-only Colleges'
...THAT would be a racist college.


In the Million-Man March,
You believed that you were
Marching for your race and rights.
If we marched for our race and rights,
..You would call us racists.


You are proud to be black,
Brown, yellow and red,
And you're not afraid to announce it.
But when we announce our white pride
...You call us racists.


You rob us,
Carjack us,
And shoot at us.
But, when a white police officer
Shoots a black gang member
Or beats up a black drug-dealer
Who is running from the LAW and
Posing a threat to ALL of society
...You call him a racist.


I am proud.
...But, you call me a racist.


Why is it that only
Whites
Can be racists?

The point not mentioned is that whites, being the majority, are in the position of privilege, power, and authority--and in the past, some, maybe many, abused that position and treated minority groups as less than equals. My point is that past wrong is not repaired by reversing the bigotry but by ending it.

58 tronman  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:39:24pm

WTFO!

I'm gone for a little while and LGF is getting Kudos on the official Barry O campaign website blogs? Did I miss something?

59 mikalm  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:39:44pm

Loathsome as these people are, I'd be suspicious of anything coming out of the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC). Morris Dees has made a career out of lumping advocates of border control and opponents of affirmative action together with Nazis and Klansmen, and deliberately obscuring the differences so as to make the Evil AmeriKKKan Racist Threat seem much bigger than it really is. He's just another rich leftist slimeball, even if many of the targets of his wrath are genuinely bad.

60 mitthrawnurdo  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:39:55pm

re: #48 DistantThunder

I guess for Obama, it's better to cling to your overpriced advisers than guns or religion.

61 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:40:18pm

re: #58 tronman

Yup. You missed a lot. Go back a couple days and review threads. Good stuff!

62 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:41:22pm

Obama is black? Why didn't anyone ever ell me this before?

I thought he was just a crazy leftist.

63 Ojoe  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:41:25pm

This election is a disaster for the Country

& may the Democratic party vanish because of it

& may Dean spend time beyond the portal

inscribed

Lasciate ogne speranva, voi ch'intrate

...

*Sputo*

64 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:42:07pm

re: #62 DesertSage

He's NOT black, he's Arab-American.

65 loflyer  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:42:15pm

re: #50 NJDhockeyfan

Cubs win!

28-8 at home this year. Best record in Wrigley Field history.

Good for your Cubbies! We had the same problem during the eighties with the Braves, just the worst team in baseball. Bobby Cox is my hero!

66 tangonine  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:42:17pm

seriously, charles?

wtf.

67 Ojoe  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:42:51pm

"re: #63 Ojoe

"speranza"

PIMF

68 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:43:23pm

Folks, we're not fighting BHO.

GEORGE SOROS.
[Link: www.ibdeditorials.com...]

[Link: www.frontpagemagazine.com...]

[Link: www.dailytech.com...]

[Link: www.americanthinker.com...]

69 opnion  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:43:46pm

re: #50 NJDhockeyfan

Cubs win!

28-8 at home this year. Best record in Wrigley Field history.


See ya at the cell

70 Ojoe  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:43:49pm

re: #67 Ojoe
All archaic Italian gets little red dots here ...

71 goddessoftheclassroom  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:44:22pm

re: #68 MandyManners

Folks, we're not fighting BHO.

GEORGE SOROS.
[Link: www.ibdeditorials.com...]

[Link: www.frontpagemagazine.com...]

[Link: www.dailytech.com...]

[Link: www.americanthinker.com...]

But we have to cut the puppet's strings to stop him.

72 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:44:45pm

re: #67 Ojoe

The inscription before the gates of hell in Dante?

73 tronman  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:46:40pm

Anyone else wonder why the dems (who seem to get lots of money from Chinese interests) keep blocking us from drilling in the Gulf, while the Chinese have an agreement now with Cuba to drill in the gulf for oil? Hrmmm...
Haven't they ever seen that last scene from There Will Be Blood? You know...the straw and the milkshake...

74 loflyer  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:46:47pm

Good night all! Thanks for the conversation, catch y'all on the flip side!

75 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:47:24pm

re: #64 hermeneutics

He's NOT black, he's Arab-American.

But...the article says that he's black. Now I'm totally confused.

Seriously, I never noticed the color of his skin. It's never been an issue with me.
But I have noticed that he was a whacked out Lefty.

76 EE  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:47:45pm

Obama's candidacy seems to attract all sorts of sick people at the fringes.

77 Dar ul Harb  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:47:45pm

re: #59 mikalm

What he said.

78 Noam Sayin'  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:47:57pm

re: #57 goddessoftheclassroom

My point is that past wrong is not repaired by reversing the bigotry but by ending it.

Nicely put, goddess.

79 goddessoftheclassroom  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:48:34pm

re: #72 hermeneutics

The inscription before the gates of hell in Dante?

But WE'RE not condemned to hell. We will continue to fight for liberty--it's only the sell-outs who have abandoned all hope and who will not get out.

80 pegcity  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:48:47pm

What about Ron Paul?

81 uptight  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:48:48pm

I think Obama should appoint Ron Paul as his VP.

Let's face it. Ron Paul freaks are just over the extremist, nutjob fence from their mutant cousins in Obamaville...just as Jeremiah Wright and Obama's foreign policy advisers aren't a million miles from David Duke.

82 shibumi  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:49:06pm

re: #45 hermeneutics

The Center for Responsive Politics reports that data for February, March and April of this year show Obama has outspent McCain’s campaign two-to-one on office rent, four-and-a-half to one on staff salaries and 25-to-one on broadcast advertising.

[Link: www.opensecrets.org...]

Interestingly enough, I'm in MI, and I have yet to see an Obama campaign ad. They're currently airing a McCain ad in which he talks about war, it's sort of depressing and makes me feel sorry for McCain.

83 gop_patriot  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:49:17pm

re: #66 tangonine

seriously, charles?

wtf.

What do you mean?

84 lawhawk  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:49:58pm

re: #55 hermeneutics

The equalizer is that the RNC has 10x the amount the DNC has on hand, and when put together, would give McCain an edge.

85 unclassifiable  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:50:26pm

Free speech lets these dumbasses expose their BS to the disaffecting sunlight of public opinion.

Speech codes drive it underground and disguise in the forms of charlatans and traitors.

86 talon_262  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:51:10pm

After reading that little snippet Charles put up, I feel very dirty and violently ill wading through that little slice of hate. To the American defenders of Vlaams Belang and the BNP, those wretched, vile people in that little snippet are your fellow travelers and brothers-in-arms.

To you, I say: How's bout dem apples?

/need I say more?

87 Typicalwhitey  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:51:25pm

re: #84 lawhawk

The equalizer is that the RNC has 10x the amount the DNC has on hand, and when put together, would give McCain an edge.

That is true. I have heard they are having a hard time coming up with funding for the convention

88 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:51:57pm

Jiga-what? Who the hell talks like that any more? [rhetorical]

And why bring Black Flag into this?

89 Cognito  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:52:36pm
A growing number of white supremacists ... hope, would ultimately end in Aryan victory...

Even David Duke, the neo-Nazi and former Klan boss who is the closest thing the movement has to a real intellectual these days, sees clear advantages in an Obama victory in the fall...

Good grief. Leftist or not, I'd support [President] Obama all day in the face of these guys.

Hopefully it won't come to that, though.

90 Intrepid  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:53:08pm

"Some Americans need hyphens in their names, because only part of them has come over; but when the whole man has come over, heart and thought and all, the hyphen drops of its own weight out of his name."
Woodrow Wilson

91 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:53:32pm

re: #84 lawhawk

Doesn't the RNC have to divy up the money between the presidential, senatorial and congressional candidates?

92 Sharmuta  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:53:43pm

re: #66 tangonine

seriously, charles?

wtf.

Should we seriously NOT want obama supporters to get a clue? I thought that was one of the points of LGF- waking up moonbats one post at a time.

93 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:54:41pm

re: #82 shibumi

So, how is Michigan coming for the Republicans? Any inside info? Intuitive info?

94 opnion  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:54:52pm

For the first time O'Rielly will be righty when he says, "I'm sure that the Senator does not share their views."

95 lawhawk  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:55:06pm

re: #91 hermeneutics

True, but if the RNC has $40 million+ and the DNC has only $4 million (and change), which is in a better position to help their presidential nominees along with carry the convention, aid the state and local races, etc.

96 shibumi  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:55:15pm

re: #71 goddessoftheclassroom

But we have to cut the puppet's strings to stop him.

That should be Limbaugh's next listener project. Something like "Project Chaos: part II- stop Soros."

But it will never happen.

97 Cognito  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:55:54pm

re: #92 Sharmuta

Should we seriously NOT want obama supporters to get a clue? I thought that was one of the points of LGF- waking up moonbats one post at a time.

What does this have to do with Obama's supporters getting a clue?

Obama is not to blame for this in any way. This is pure racist hatred. These people only want Obama elected because they expect it to kick off their beloved race war.

98 opnion  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:56:36pm

re: #85 unclassifiable

Free speech lets these dumbasses expose their BS to the disaffecting sunlight of public opinion.

Speech codes drive it underground and disguise in the forms of charlatans and traitors.

That is a major reason that free speech is so important. People like this expose themselves.

99 Ojoe  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:56:46pm

re: #72 hermeneutics

On the gate, above the opening, right you are.

"Abandon all hope, ye who enter here."

Dean deserves it.

IMHO

100 really grumpy big dog johnson  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:57:36pm

So am I to guess that "jigaboo" is a racist term?

/pathetic

101 DesertSage  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:58:01pm

re: #95 lawhawk

True, but if the RNC has $40 million+ and the DNC has only $4 million (and change)...

They're really milking that "change" slogan, aren't they?

102 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:58:04pm

re: #79 goddessoftheclassroom

But WE'RE not condemned to hell. We will continue to fight for liberty--it's only the sell-outs who have abandoned all hope and who will not get out.

Strangely, it is the sell-outs who seem most hopeful ... rhetorically. Not us. Though they may be condemned to a metaphoric hell, they sure don't know it.

103 Ojoe  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:58:39pm

re: #90 Intrepid

I heard a man on the radio say that his dad took him to a military cemetery and said, 'Look at these graves son. These men died so you could be an American. Not an Italian.'

104 pegcity  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:58:56pm

sorry to sound clueless but whats a jigaboo?

105 sojerofgod  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:59:04pm

I just don't understand these guys.

No really.

Isn't there enough to do in the world without wasting your energy on hating people? What hole does it fill in your heart to find fault with others based on inherent differences that are neither a choice nor a detriment?


Just doing a little philosophical /wax on /wax off there...

106 itellu3times  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:59:18pm

These guys are so twisted, the swastika is an appropriate emblem.

I can hardly wait until they parade around in full regalia carrying Obama signs.

107 tradewind  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 7:59:58pm

Speaking of dumb asses... Madeline NotAllthatbright has opined that Myanmar wouldn't let humanitarian aid in because the US invaded Iraq...
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

108 seekeroftruth  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:00:16pm

re: #97 Cognito

You were wrong about the WSJ being the first to expose Jim Johnson. It was actually a blog - the Corner.com on June 4, three days before the WSJ. They used the Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight's May 2006 report as their source.
[Link: corner.nationalreview.com...]

109 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:00:32pm

re: #103 Ojoe

Nice. And so true. I hope many others heard that radio program.

110 opnion  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:01:03pm

re: #107 tradewind

Speaking of dumb asses... Madeline NotAllthatbright has opined that Myanmar wouldn't let humanitarian aid in because the US invaded Iraq...
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]


Please tell me that she didn't say that

111 tradewind  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:01:06pm

re: #100 really grumpy big dog johnson
A hundred years ago, maybe...
I'm from the heart of Dixie, and I've never heard it spoken.

112 sojerofgod  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:01:17pm

re: #104 pegcity

Thats a racial slur for a black person (male I think) that goes way back to the 1960's at least. I remember people saying it when I was a kid. My mom taught me better but some of my friends weren't so lucky.

113 Macker  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:01:44pm

re: #104 pegcity

sorry to sound clueless but whats a jigaboo?

The term is as derogatory to blacks as the N word.

114 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:02:20pm

re: #104 pegcity

I just heard this term recently -- a black baby. It is an incredibly rude word. Don't ever use it.

(The person from whom I heard this word was a liberal democrat living in Georgia, by the way. So much for liberal "sensitivity.")

115 Sharmuta  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:03:03pm

re: #97 Cognito

You know- I responded to the wrong person. I meant that comment for #58.

116 DistantThunder  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:03:23pm

11 states will have ant-quote laws on the ballot in November - it passed huge in California, regarding college admissions, same people behind it.

117 DesScorp  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:03:38pm

Uhhh, Charles, you should know better than to post anything from the SPLC. They're nothing but a moneymaker disguised as a civil rights group. Even many of our local black voters in central Alabama think Morris Dees, the founder of the SPLC, is a con artist. The Klan, Stormfront, etc, have been neutered for years; the Klan ceased to be an effective threat years ago, along with other white racist groups because of FBI action and lawsuits. And yet Dees uses their boogeymen to raise millions of dollars a year, telling liberals and black voters than an army of Klansmen is secretly building right now. The guy is a kind of leftist Joe McCarthy with a profit motive. Try to find out how much money the SPLC has, how much they spend, and how much Dees himself makes. Good luck on getting the info from them. Our local paper, the Montgomery Advertiser (a pulitizer prize winning paper) did a series of stories on him years ago that was very critical, and around these parts, the Advertiser is considered a slightly center-left paper, so that's pretty significant. I have no doubt there are some yahoos out there saying some of this stuff, but other than individually, they're no real threat. Please don't get snookered into using info provided by Dees and his staffers.

118 DistantThunder  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:03:52pm

re: #116 DistantThunder

11 states will have ant-quote laws on the ballot in November - it passed huge in California, regarding college admissions, same people behind it.

QUOTA=quote

119 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:04:25pm

re: #116 DistantThunder

... ant-quote laws

Leave those insects alone. And NEVER quote them.

120 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:04:47pm
And “TeutonicLegion” said that “a whole bunch of people will join us and find these boards” if Obama becomes president.

Just because someone flips a rock and finds a bunch of vermin underneath it doesn't mean that person will want to join with said vermin.

I do not want Obama to be president, and that has nothing to do with his skin color. If he does become POTUS, I will still keep great distance between myself and these cretins.

121 shibumi  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:06:05pm

re: #93 hermeneutics

So, how is Michigan coming for the Republicans? Any inside info? Intuitive info?

There is a lot of quiet racism in Michigan. It's hidden, but it's there. Detroit is the most segregated city in the nation, and, strangely enough, everyone is happy with that state of affairs. That racism will play into the election.

The north and west parts of the state are all Republican. Ann Arbor would vote for Hitler if he was on the Democratic ticket. So would Detroit.

The suburbs are up for grabs. My guess is that Wayne County (lower incomes, more minorities, less educated-also includes Detroit ) will go for Obama. I'm also guessing Oakland and Macomb counties (the former is white collar, the latter blue) will end up going for McCain.

I work with many union and non-union Democrats. I only know two who are voting for Obama. The rest are either silent (which I read as a McCain vote they won't admit), say they won't vote, or admit that they will vote for McCain. Generally, I don't think white blue collar men will vote for a woman or a black man. It's just my feeling.

Here's an interesting analysis I found:

McCain Can Win Michigan

122 Cognito  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:08:32pm

re: #108 seekeroftruth

You were wrong about the WSJ being the first to expose Jim Johnson. It was actually a blog - the Corner.com on June 4, three days before the WSJ. They used the Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight's May 2006 report as their source.
[Link: corner.nationalreview.com...]

1) The Wall Street Journal broke the story. It's the story of Johnson's profiteering thanks to Countrywide Financial. Not his compensation at Fannie Mae.

2) Regardless, the site you're referring to is by the National Review. Which ain't exactly just a blog.

123 mikalm  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:08:32pm

re: #117 DesScorp

You said it far better, and with much more detail, than I could in #59.

124 goddessoftheclassroom  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:10:12pm

re: #114 hermeneutics

I just heard this term recently -- a black baby. It is an incredibly rude word. Don't ever use it.

(The person from whom I heard this word was a liberal democrat living in Georgia, by the way. So much for liberal "sensitivity.")

My grandfather was born in 1911 in Chicago, in the Bohemian section. ALL ethnic groups had "nicknames," even them (Bohunks). Over Chrismas dinner in 1985, he told me and my brother fascinating stories of his youth, One detail was that blacks were called "Boobocks" (I'm so sure of the spelling) in the same tone as all the other groups--no disparagement or insult, just description. Of course, those words would be used insultingly in particular situations, but not as the default to indicate inferiority.

Frankly, the habit of calling black men "boy" in the South was horribly insulting, iin my opinion, but ironically the speaker was simply maintaing the second-class status while being, infact, polite.

125 Karagush  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:10:26pm

re: #100 really grumpy big dog johnson

So am I to guess that "jigaboo" is a racist term?

/pathetic

I am afraid it is. Sounds like something one of my very young twin nieces would call the other. I guess in som ways you call it baby-talk. But thats an insult to babies.

126 sojerofgod  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:11:10pm

re: #121 shibumi

You may be right about yankee blue collar men not voting for Obama. I wonder though if it really is "hidden racism" or just that they think he is an elite candy-ass who has about as much in common with them as Boy George. Now, I don't know these guys, and don't get mad or anything, but I tire of racism being both the reason or excuse for behavoir. People are a lot more complicated than that.

127 really grumpy big dog johnson  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:11:57pm

My comment regarding the incredibly offensive word "jigaboo" was in sarcasm and disgust. It's the worst kind of racial hatred, right there summarized in seven letters.

Best thing you can do is put in the memory bank - if you never heard it before - and leave it there under lock and key.

128 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:12:08pm

re: #121 shibumi

There is a lot of quiet racism in Michigan. It's hidden, but it's there. Detroit is the most segregated city in the nation, and, strangely enough, everyone is happy with that state of affairs. That racism will play into the election.

The north and west parts of the state are all Republican. Ann Arbor would vote for Hitler if he was on the Democratic ticket. So would Detroit.

The suburbs are up for grabs. My guess is that Wayne County (lower incomes, more minorities, less educated-also includes Detroit ) will go for Obama. I'm also guessing Oakland and Macomb counties (the former is white collar, the latter blue) will end up going for McCain.

I work with many union and non-union Democrats. I only know two who are voting for Obama. The rest are either silent (which I read as a McCain vote they won't admit), say they won't vote, or admit that they will vote for McCain. Generally, I don't think white blue collar men will vote for a woman or a black man. It's just my feeling.

Here's an interesting analysis I found:

McCain Can Win Michigan

What an excellent summary and link. Thank you!

A couple days ago Rasmussen had Obama up by three. (45-42) Do you think Obama is having a temporary bounce or that more lasting sentiments are trending toward Obama in michigan.

Isn't Levin running for Senate, again? I suppose he's a shoo-in, huh?

129 Intrepid  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:12:52pm

re: #95 lawhawk

True, but if the RNC has $40 million+ and the DNC has only $4 million (and change), which is in a better position to help their presidential nominees along with carry the convention, aid the state and local races, etc.

Heh - it's streamers and crepe paper for the Democrat Convention this year.

Howard Dean is not a real fund raiser, is he?

130 gman  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:14:08pm

Who do Nazis hate most of all? The Jews.
Who is going to throw Israel under the bus? Obama

131 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:15:23pm

It seems us atypical white people can't catch a break, no matter what we do.

If we don't vote for Obama, it's because we're racists.

Now this piece from the SPLC tells us that if we DO vote for Obama, it's because we're racists.

Well, if I am gonna be accused of being a racist either way, I will go with option no. 1.

132 mikalm  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:16:38pm

re: #127 really grumpy big dog johnson

I think Lenny Bruce had the last word on racial slurs in this classic routine. (WARNING: NOT FOR SENSITIVE EARS!)

133 Archimedes  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:17:54pm

sigh, and the good new just keeps pouring in. I'm seeing he decay of America right before my eyes and I can't stop it.

Thank you so much postmodernists. Thanks a hell of a lot.

134 Intrepid  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:18:37pm

re: #116 DistantThunder

11 states will have ant-quote laws on the ballot in November - it passed huge in California, regarding college admissions, same people behind it.

Folks in CA can't quote anyone? Is it that bad there?

Hee.

135 Charles  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:23:10pm

re: #117 DesScorp

Uhhh, Charles, you should know better than to post anything from the SPLC.

I should "know better?"

Please point out something that's inaccurate or wrong in this article.

I do know that the far right works overtime to smear the SPLC, if that's what you're referring to.

136 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:26:27pm

re: #124 goddessoftheclassroom

My grandfather was born in 1911 in Chicago, in the Bohemian section. ALL ethnic groups had "nicknames," even them (Bohunks). Over Chrismas dinner in 1985, he told me and my brother fascinating stories of his youth, One detail was that blacks were called "Boobocks" (I'm so sure of the spelling) in the same tone as all the other groups--no disparagement or insult, just description. Of course, those words would be used insultingly in particular situations, but not as the default to indicate inferiority.

Frankly, the habit of calling black men "boy" in the South was horribly insulting, iin my opinion, but ironically the speaker was simply maintaing the second-class status while being, infact, polite.

Interesting anecdote and background, Goddess. I have never heard of Germans referring to themselves as Bohunks, even in jest.

I grew up in California where race simply wasn't discussed. It wasn't obscured, but rather wasn't an issue -- Reagan called this "race blindness." When I went to NY to visit relatives, however, I had a quick introduction to race and ethnicity. They referred to neighborhoods according to the dominant ethnicity living there: "Polish hill," "Italian zone," "Sven city." Being Scandinavian, they referred to each other as "Sven" as in "he's a real Sven."

I loved the differences between ethnic groups and felt California had diluted differences. This wasn't the same as "celebrating diversity" but rather acknowledging the Americanness in all of us at the same time we shared superficial dissimilarities.

Anyway, too much to say here. Interesting topic, though.

137 Reluctant Democrat  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:27:51pm

I think Obama's race causes a big yawn. His leftist politics--now, that's something else again. Of course, if O loses, the media will call us Racist Nation.

138 cookielady  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:29:39pm

People that think this way literally make me want to throw up. It is purely evil to hate someone for the pigment level of their skin--in either and any direction!

There is only the human race. There are genetic differences and colors and tendencies based upon environment and family descents, but I don't hate all yellow-furred dogs because their fur is yellow. That is beyond stupid. Sheesh.

I would just as soon go to war with these yahoos as the Islamists. Same level of 'don't deserve to be on the planet' in my opinion.

139 mikalm  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:29:45pm

re: #135 Charles

Charles:

Here's a bit on Dees and the SPLC from a source that's been linked to many times on LGF. I wouldn't exactly call David Horowitz and his cohorts "far rightists"...

140 goddessoftheclassroom  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:31:11pm

re: #136 hermeneutics

Small clarification: my grandfather's grandparents emigrated from Bohemia, which is now in the Czech Republic; they really wee Bohemians, not Germans. In fact, census records list their nationality as either Bohemian or Austria/Hungarian, becase Bohemia was part of that empire at the time (late 19th century).

The one truly insulting name was "Roma," "Romany" or "gypsy"; that was a deepseated prejudice,

141 mikalm  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:34:29pm

re: #136 hermeneutics

I loved the differences between ethnic groups and felt California had diluted differences. This wasn't the same as "celebrating diversity" but rather acknowledging the Americanness in all of us at the same time we shared superficial dissimilarities..

As a native Californio and student of my state's history, I believe that one reason that happened was because of how we were settled. The Spanish and Indians created the mixed-race/-culture mestizo, and then when the Gold Rush hit, almost every nation and ethnicity in the world poured in here, and created a wild mingling and mixing of peoples. So although we've had ugly racist incidents in our history (anti-Chinese pogroms, the Zoot Suit riots, etc.), I think there's been much less separation between the groups than you'd find on the East Coast.

142 shibumi  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:35:56pm

re: #126 sojerofgod

You may be right about yankee blue collar men not voting for Obama. I wonder though if it really is "hidden racism" or just that they think he is an elite candy-ass who has about as much in common with them as Boy George. Now, I don't know these guys, and don't get mad or anything, but I tire of racism being both the reason or excuse for behavoir. People are a lot more complicated than that.

When I say 'hidden racism' I mean racism going both ways- something that is never discussed.

I think there are a lot of reasons for blue collar workers not to like Obama besides the color of his skin. He has been brutal to the auto industry, yet the UAW has given him the nod. Go figure.

And I do agree- people are complicated, however, we tend to make snap judgments about people based on their looks- and Obama looks like a slick black liberal politician that doesn't necessarily have a lot in common with the ordinary guy on the factory line.

143 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:36:53pm

So Bohemians are not ethnic Germans? I never knew that. I suppose, then, that Bohemians are more Slavic in their ethnicity.

Where did the word "bohemian" (wild, untraditional, fringe) come from ... do you know, Goddess?

144 jaunte  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:37:06pm

re: #142 shibumi

Bowling a 37 carries a lot more weight than his skin color.

145 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:37:14pm
146 Meremortal  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:39:41pm

Interesting. Same idiotic thinking that some on the far right are espousing. "Obama will be so bad that true conservatism will rise and win again in 4 years"

Sorry, I don't have 4 years to waste while liberals pack the Supreme Court, centralize power toward the Federal Government, raise taxes, continue to impede energy production, appease terrorists, gut the Second Amendment, and generally do that voodoo that they do so well.

147 Mich-again  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:41:03pm

Remember back when these same guys were Paulbots.

148 goddessoftheclassroom  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:41:23pm

re: #143 hermeneutics

So Bohemians are not ethnic Germans? I never knew that. I suppose, then, that Bohemians are more Slavic in their ethnicity.

Where did the word "bohemian" (wild, untraditional, fringe) come from ... do you know, Goddess?

From wiki:

The term bohemian, of French origin, was first used in the English language in the nineteenth century[1] to describe the untraditional lifestyles of marginalized and impoverished artists, writers, musicians, and actors in major European cities. Bohemians were associated with unorthodox or antiestablishment political or social viewpoints, which were often expressed through non-marital sexual relations, frugality, and/or "voluntary poverty".

The term emerged in France in the 1800s when artists and creators began to concentrate in the lower-rent, lower class gypsy neighbourhoods. The term "Bohemian" reflects a belief, widely held in France at the time, that the Gypsies had come from Bohemia.[2]

149 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:45:08pm

re: #148 goddessoftheclassroom

Sorry, I should have looked that up myself.

I'm going to do some research on Gypsies now. Obviously, my European history needs some serious work!

150 Ojoe  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:47:07pm

These white men died to free their black brothers.

Here is the glorious world we live in.

(Mt. Wilson dusk)

Goodnight All.

I cannot fathom the madness I see in this country now.

151 shibumi  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:47:25pm

re: #128 hermeneutics

What an excellent summary and link. Thank you!

A couple days ago Rasmussen had Obama up by three. (45-42) Do you think Obama is having a temporary bounce or that more lasting sentiments are trending toward Obama in michigan.

Isn't Levin running for Senate, again? I suppose he's a shoo-in, huh?

Glad you liked the link. : )

People lie to pollsters. That's just the way it is. And the polls are notoriously inaccurate. They never say how many people were polled, their ages or their location. If you ask 200 people in Traverse City (up north) you're going to get a very different answer than if you ask 200 people in Dearborn.

Levin will drop dead in the Senate. The voters of MI will re-elect his corpse, or perhaps his reanimated head.

Then there's John Dingell. He's been a Congressman for over 50 years. His head will also be re-elected.

152 Ojoe  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:48:35pm

re: #149 hermeneutics

Jan Yoors wrote two excellent books on the gypsies;

"The Gypsies"

and

"Crossing"

153 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:48:53pm

re: #150 Ojoe

Goodnight, Ojoe. Keep your chin up, dear. We need you.

154 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:49:35pm

re: #152 Ojoe

Got it. Will go either to Amazon or to library. Sounds good.

155 Pastorius  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:49:39pm

A few years back, David Duke and Louis Farrakhan came out in support of each others causes. The logic being that both were for separatism.

Obama is to some extent (perhaps, even to a large extent) affiliated with black nationalists like Farrakhan.

Therefore, it is no suprise at all that white nationalists would be happy.

156 mikalm  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:49:45pm

re: #145 ploome hineni

and the fact that the level of acceptable anti Jewish rhetoric in the mainstream is appalling speaks volumes

Again -- if the SPLC was truly concerned about violent anti-Semitic rhetoric and actions in America, who do you think they'd spend most of their time tracking?

A few idiots in bedsheets and homemade Stormtrooper uniforms?

Or the immense, deeply-entrenched, well-organized and well-funded Islamist and "anti-Zionist" Left?

Hint: Which one scares self-hating, stuck-in-the-Sixties rich Liberals more, yet is paradoxically far less likely to retaliate in any meaningful way?

157 goddessoftheclassroom  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:51:11pm

re: #149 hermeneutics.

Sorry, I should have looked that up myself.

I'm going to do some research on Gypsies now. Obviously, my European history needs some serious work!

Gypsies are still persecuted in Romania and, I'd bet, other former Eastern Bloc countries. I think it's a cultural issue because the Romany prefer to stay to themselves and not assimilate into the community. They still tend to be "nomadic" and travel from place to place. Simply put, they're different, and some people cannot tolerate that at all.

158 hermeneutics  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:52:43pm

re: #157 goddessoftheclassroom

.


Gypsies are still persecuted in Romania and, I'd bet, other former Eastern Bloc countries. I think it's a cultural issue because the Romany prefer to stay to themselves and not assimilate into the community. They still tend to be "nomadic" and travel from place to place. Simply put, they're different, and some people cannot tolerate that at all.

Well, then, I'm a Nordic gypsy -- a gypsy by choice, not by blood. I fit your definition perfectly -- I stay to myself, I don't assimilate, I'm nomadic and travel incessantly.

159 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:53:17pm
160 Pastorius  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:53:30pm

#21 LoFlyer,
Some European nations have elected a woman, but none have elected a black man.

I don't know if any have ever had a black person in a high cabinent position either.

161 mikalm  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:54:24pm

re: #157 goddessoftheclassroom

Next to the Jews, the most heavily persecuted and murdered group in the Nazi Holocaust were the Romani. Here's a good piece about the extermination of the Gypsies in WWII.

162 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:56:24pm
163 mikalm  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 8:59:09pm

re: #159 ploome hineni

I never understood that mentality, myself. If I was a member of a group that had nearly been totally exterminated within living memory, while the rest of the world either ignored or cheered on the slaughter, the last emotions I would feel would be guilt or self-hatred. Is a lot of it just secularized tikkun olam perversely turned in upon itself, I wonder...?

164 Pastorius  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 9:01:03pm

#117,

I don't like the SPLC either. They seem like another one of those organizations which has outlived its usefulness, and is still fighting the bogeyman of yesterday. I see there magazine every month. They're always concerned about white supremacists. Rarely do they have a word to say about the greatest racial problem of our time; Arab Muslim hatred of Jews.

Frankly, the SPLC disgusts me.

165 mikalm  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 9:01:49pm

re: #158 hermeneutics

Actually, there are ethnic-Celtic Gypsies -- the Travellers.

166 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 9:06:07pm
167 gman  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 9:07:25pm

re: #156 mikalm

Again -- if the SPLC was truly concerned about violent anti-Semitic rhetoric and actions in America, who do you think they'd spend most of their time tracking?

A few idiots in bedsheets and homemade Stormtrooper uniforms?

Or the immense, deeply-entrenched, well-organized and well-funded Islamist and "anti-Zionist" Left?

Hint: Which one scares self-hating, stuck-in-the-Sixties rich Liberals more, yet is paradoxically far less likely to retaliate in any meaningful way?

Neo-Nazis and Socialists both hate Jews. We're seeing once again a far left-far right convergence to support Obama. We've been over this topic many times before at LGF, especially in light of the Ron Paul campaign.
Don't think Neo-Nazis hate blacks more than Jews. According to Neo-Nazis, Jews are involved in a global conspiracy of domination. If they thought Obama would throw Jews under the bus, they would vote for him in a heartbeat.

168 Outrider  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 9:10:27pm

Sad commentary.

They are correct in one aspect though. If either Senators Obama or Clinton win the Presidential election, the following four years will be such a disaster, the Republicans would be assured the Presidency for the next 8-16 years. Nothing to do with anything except the leftist mentality at work. They should have learned their lesson from President J.E.Carters' administration because Sen Obama is merely a clone of good ole Jimmah.

169 Charles  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 9:14:53pm

re: #139 mikalm

Charles:

Here's a bit on Dees and the SPLC from a source that's been linked to many times on LGF. I wouldn't exactly call David Horowitz and his cohorts "far rightists"...

So the worst crime Morris Dees is guilty of is "self promotion?"

When did that become a crime?

Again, deal with the facts. There are facts in this article, and the SPLC is doing more than anyone else to keep tabs on these neo-Nazi creeps. Why would you attack them for exposing this?

170 Render  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 9:15:02pm

I only saw one line in that piece that I would really quibble about.

"Even David Duke, the neo-Nazi and former Klan boss who is the closest thing the movement has to a real intellectual these days..."

They got a fistful of pseudo intellectuals with fancy degrees these days.

Jamie Kelso, Ian Jobling, Virginia Abernathy, Lawrence Auster, Jared Taylor, Peter Brimelow, Gordon Lee Baum, Marcus Epstein, etcetcetc...

SLPC is actually six months to a year behind the curve.

===

Their numbers have risen from a one time 1990's low of around 20,000 to well over a quarter of a million in separate groups at last estimate. That's just the US based groups.

One neo-nazi is a threat. Every neo-nazi is a threat.

Is that a difficult concept?

EXPECT
NO
MERCY,
R

171 mikalm  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 9:18:14pm

re: #167 gman

All too true. But my point is, who is the bigger danger to Jews? A few thousand (at most) ignorant Nazi/Klan misfits, who are disorganized, nearly universally despised, and thoroughly penetrated by deep-cover informants? Or a few million American Islamists and Leftists, who get away with more anti-Semitic rhetoric and actions in one week than the White-Power crowd wishes it could cobble together in a decade?

172 anotherindyfilmguy  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 9:18:26pm
Obama will be a signal, a clear signal for millions of our people,” Duke wrote in an essay entitled “A Black Flag for White America” last week. “Obama is like that new big dark spot on your arm that finally sends you to the doctor for some real medicine. ... Obama is the pain that let’s [sic] your body know that something is dreadfully wrong. Obama will let the American people know that there is a real cancer eating away at the heart of our country and Republican aspirin will not only not cure it, but only masks the pain and makes you think you don’t need radical surgery. ...


I don't agree with his ideology one bit. However he is dead spot on about this part, although for the wrong reasons and about the wrong audience. Obamamessiah is already making the clinton supporters question "how did we get this empty shirt?" as their candidate... If he manages to get past the clintonistas and any of their hijinx to/through the convention and loses there will be a different sort of civil war in the democratic party...
Still kind of a win of sorts for the rest of the country...

173 pegcity  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 9:21:44pm

What's a European American?

174 TalkinKamel  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 9:22:23pm

re: #171 mikalm

Why quibble about who'se the bigger danger? Both groups are dangerous to Jews.

(I suspect, with the current fashionability of antisemetism, that more and more Nazi types are going to come crawling out of the woodwork; I suspect they've actually been around for years, there are a lot of them, and we're only becoming aware of them because they now feel free to share their hate-filled fantasies with the rest of us, whereas before they kept quiet. Also, there's always the issue that the Neo-Nazis and Islamists might ally with each other; they did in WWII.)

175 TalkinKamel  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 9:23:42pm

And MikalM, get ahold of a copy of the book, "Liberal Facism". The left and the right are a lot closer than you might think.

176 mikalm  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 9:24:30pm

re: #169 Charles

Charles, I'm just saying that I think Dees & Co. have a fundraising-driven tendency to vastly exaggerate the real threat of the White-Power crowd, and that not everybody who criticizes the SPLC's scare-tactic approach is an ultra-rightist or racist.

177 Render  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 9:25:07pm

re: #171 mikalm

Storm front has over 200,000 registered members. That's just the single biggest group. There are over 100 other known groups ranging in size from a few hundred to over 20,000.

Worse, they have deep ties and alliances with the European and Russian neo-nazi groups.

Either you honestly don't know this, or you are lying. I'd prefer the latter, but I'll leave the explanation up to you.

All of that can be found just by searching this blog circa the anti-VB era of last October.

HELP
YOUR
SELF,
R

178 pegcity  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 9:25:11pm

re: #174 TalkinKamel

Wolfgang Droge a notorius Now dead Neo Nazi was invited to Libya on Momar's behalf, so i think thats already happend

179 gman  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 9:25:53pm

re: #171 mikalm

All too true. But my point is, who is the bigger danger to Jews? A few thousand (at most) ignorant Nazi/Klan misfits, who are disorganized, nearly universally despised, and thoroughly penetrated by deep-cover informants? Or a few million American Islamists and Leftists, who get away with more anti-Semitic rhetoric and actions in one week than the White-Power crowd wishes it could cobble together in a decade?

I, for one, am worried about how many extremists are lining up behind Obama.

We saw the same thing with Ron Paul.

180 Charles  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 9:27:05pm

re: #170 Render

I only saw one line in that piece that I would really quibble about.

"Even David Duke, the neo-Nazi and former Klan boss who is the closest thing the movement has to a real intellectual these days..."

They got a fistful of pseudo intellectuals with fancy degrees these days.

Jamie Kelso, Ian Jobling, Virginia Abernathy, Lawrence Auster, Jared Taylor, Peter Brimelow, Gordon Lee Baum, Marcus Epstein, etcetcetc...

SLPC is actually six months to a year behind the curve.

===

Their numbers have risen from a one time 1990's low of around 20,000 to well over a quarter of a million in separate groups at last estimate. That's just the US based groups.

One neo-nazi is a threat. Every neo-nazi is a threat.

Is that a difficult concept?

EXPECT
NO
MERCY,
R

I've learned recently that neo-fascists are much more prominent in conservative circles than I had previously realized. There are other well-known pundits who are sympathetic to the fascists, too -- I've drastically revised my opinion of more than a few people, e.g. Diane West, Richard Miniter, and several others.

181 mikalm  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 9:36:50pm

re: #174 TalkinKamel

That's possible. I've certainly seen a shocking rise in openly anti-Semitic rhetoric in public, although nearly all of it has come from the "anti-Zionist" Left. I suppose its acceptance would encourage the Nazi types to be more public and vocal as well.

And of course, there is the historic alliance between National Socialism and radical Islam, although with the situation in modern Europe, those ties may be a bit strained these days.

182 Egfrow  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 9:40:37pm

Make no mistake! The Left will attempt to tie everything associated with Radical racist Nazi socialist groups to the everything the right stands for. They will do the relentlessly at every opportunity. Nazi, KKK, etc, which are all actually Leftist collective socialist groups, will be tied to everything conservatives stand for. This is unstoppable and unavoidable. LGF is already used to this but other conservative groups have yet to go through this and will take it pretty hard. The MSM juggernaut is completely and 100% in bed with Communist ideologues and full steam ahead with their propaganda storm. This included Fox news who's Rupert Murdoch even believes Obama will be president. Fox helped picked McCaine. Fox is actually less than half conservative. In comparison to the rest of the outlets, They are much better but still mostly liberal. This is how we feel about what Happened with McCaine. Compromise, compromise, compromise. You are either conservative or not. We seem all to willing to compromise our principles in hopes that there is a savior. There is no Reagan II coming.

183 mikalm  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 9:44:43pm

re: #180 Charles

Jamie Kelso is a piece of work. He first came into the public eye in the book What Really Happened to the Class of '65 (co-written by Michael Medved and David Wallechinsky), as one of the Pali High class members interviewed in 1975. He was a Communist in the 60s, an Objectivist in the 70s, and a White nationalist afterwards.

All very predictable, really, if you read the book's chapter about him -- this was a very smart guy who had a desperate need to adhere to an Total System with All the Answers. I read recently about his shenanigans in the National Alliance, where he seemed to be on the outs, and laid odds that he'd either be a fundamentalist Christian or a militant Muslim in the next few years, as he seems to have exhausted all secular absolutist ideologies.

184 Ojoe  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 9:46:02pm

re: #180 Charles

I've learned recently that neo-fascists are much more prominent in conservative circles than I had previously realized

That is scary Charles.

More reason to think of LGF as Centrist, too.

185 Ringo the Gringo  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 9:54:36pm

re: #180 Charles

There's a difference between conservative and right-wing, Patrick Buchanan and his ilk are not conservatives, they're right-wingers.

186 anubis_soundwave  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 9:58:23pm

If the following groups in the US would each purchase an uninhabited island and move there to cteate their ideal world:

Black nationalists(ever consider Madagascar?)

White separatists(go home to Europe! no one's stopping you!)

Yeerking moonbats(seriously. buy an island and enact your desired policies there--but leave the rest of us out of it!)

PETA activists(just feed yourselves to a mountain lion already. your group has done more to cause people to hate animals than any other in history.)

Environmentalists(hop in a volcano for me to feed Gaea, will you? your attitude towards the Earth versus the humans living on it who can do some things to protect it has caused some(like me) to root for the Ecovillains on CAPTAIN PLANET. millions in Africa died of malaria because you in the US had the vapors about DDT. reasonable Americans never wanted the bald eagle to become extinct (too late to change the bird on our money), but to forbid DDT worldwide because of wildlife? when Africa really needed it? good grief.

...then the US--and the world--would be free to move on with their lives, unimpeded by trivialities. These five groups are slowing us down, even more than ISLAM (a whole new beast, this "religion of peace"). With them out of the way, we'd at least be free to fight back.

187 Roger  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 10:10:23pm

This is one of the most depressing links in a long time. To think the authors are living when there is so much opportunity with the knowledge we have...

188 mikalm  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 10:11:35pm

re: #185 Ringo the Gringo

Sort of like how "liberal" and "leftist" used to be distinctly different political ideologies.

189 FQ Kafir  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 10:12:10pm

David Duke and his entourage came into a nightclub that I used to manage.

Two steps behind him was a 21 year-old girl. They spent the evening (until1 AM) together enjoying cocktail after cocktail.

My security guards wanted to make him bleed.

I almost let them.

Duke is just plain bad news.

190 Charles  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 10:12:32pm

re: #187 Roger

This is one of the most depressing links in a long time. To think the authors are living when there is so much opportunity with the knowledge we have...

Are you trying to get banned, or would you like to explain what this is supposed to mean? Do you think the warnings about advocating violence are not serious?

191 mikalm  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 10:12:32pm

re: #186 anubis_soundwave

"Yeerking"?

192 Roger  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 10:14:38pm

re: #189 FQ Kafir

See his face recently? David Duke is bad news unto himself.

193 FQ Kafir  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 10:16:23pm

re: #192 Roger

Once is enough.

194 Roger  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 10:20:06pm

re: #190 Charles

Are you trying to get banned, or would you like to explain what this is supposed to mean? Do you think the warnings about advocating violence are not serious?

What? I'm saying there is every opportunity to know better than the junk Mark Potok is pointing out they[Duke etc.] are espousing.

195 TheMole  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 10:27:15pm

re: #112 sojerofgod

re: #111 tradewind

re: #114 hermeneutics

Not much surprises me, but I am surprised that people have never heard or seen the word jigaboo. I thought it had been immortalized in Spike Lee's 1988 comedy School Daze, which tells the story of two fraternity-sorority-social groups at a black college that call each other the Wannabes and the Jigaboos. It's probably Lee's funniest movie. Here's a link to a YouTube posting of a musical dis-fest between the two:

Good and Bad Hair

196 Charles  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 10:31:12pm

re: #194 Roger

What? I'm saying there is every opportunity to know better than the junk Mark Potok is pointing out they[Duke etc.] are espousing.

I'm still not clear on your point, but I'll take your word you didn't mean what it looked like.

197 Roger  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 10:31:22pm

To write it better:

To think the authors are living at a time when there is so much opportunity with the knowledge we have...
198 Roger  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 10:35:37pm

As in not living in the Dark Ages

199 American Jewess In Jerusalem[deleted]  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 10:36:31pm
200 American Jewess In Jerusalem  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 10:38:41pm

re: #18 Sharmuta


I don't think Pastor Hagee is a freak. Do you know for a fact that he said that?

201 American Jewess In Jerusalem  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 10:43:11pm

re: #42 SasquatchOnSteroids

Check out the assh*le with the "Smash Jewish Supremicism" poster.
That would get some high fives over at Kos. Circular.


The Vanguard folks extol the virtues of the Muslim Arab, by the way. They see them as natural allies in the war against Jews and blacks. Not sure if everyone was aware of that. Just evidence of the ignorance and lack of logic I was referring to earlier. There are even some Muslims who post there.

I wouldn't be surprised if some Koslings lurk over on that site, too. It seems like they have a lot in common on the "Jewish question."

202 American Jewess In Jerusalem  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 10:46:53pm

re: #64 hermeneutics

He's NOT black, he's Arab-American.


His father is a Muslim Kenyan, not a Muslim Arab. I think you meant to say he is a Muslim American, because he is not Arabic.

203 chrisbg99  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 10:50:07pm

Cockroaches like those deserve to be stomped.

204 Tigger2005  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 10:52:38pm

re: #197 Roger

To write it better:

People who want to hate will never be persuaded by facts. They have little in the way of self-confidence, self-respect or identity, so they cling to race and hatred to give some meaning and purpose to their pathetic lives. Without these things they will fall apart.

Unfortunately, many Americans today cannot see the fundamental difference between opposing certain ideas and philosophies regardless of who holds them, and hating and fearing someone because of the color of their skin.

205 American Jewess In Jerusalem  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 10:53:32pm

re: #177 Render

Why would you accuse him of lying? I also thought the KKKers were a small, fringe group these days. I had no idea their membership was so large.

206 Tigger2005  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 11:00:56pm

The Wikipedia article on that crime seems pretty impartial.

re: #199 American Jewess In Jerusalem

When the 5 black thugs tortured and murdered Channon Christian and Christopher Newsome last year, I started doing a Google search on their names. Virtually NO ONE was talking about it, and there was a media blackout on the story, but the one place where you could find info was on Vanguard and the other white supremicist sites. I had never been to those sites before and I was pretty shocked and sickened. Everything comes back to the evil Jew and the Jew Media, by the way, "cause n*****s is too stupid to do this stuff on their own." I had never even read such stuff in my life! They have pictures up of Nazis hanging Jews and of KKKers hanging blacks. I guess I had never seen such ignorance on display in my life, not to mention the evil. Judging from the content of some of the posts, I marveled that such people even knew how to read and write.

I agree that political correctness has gotten us into a terrible position where we ignore black on white crime (as in the Christian and Newsome murders) for fear of stoking racial tensions, but I hadn't realized before how hard the KKKers were taking it.

Unfortunately, or maybe not so unfortunately, I think the Obama candidacy is going to continue to bring racial tensions to a head in our country. I don't know how events will unfold or even if it will all ultimately be very mild in the end. But we can be sure that if he fails, there will be cries of white racism, and if he wins, there will be cries of black racism.

207 Megawatt  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 11:14:42pm

I thought the Democratic Party's primary was over?

208 Render  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 11:14:50pm

re: #205 American Jewess In Jerusalem

Because he was registered here in 2004. He was present here last October and November and still has access to all of the information on the subject that was posted here. Specifically in this case about what Jamie Kelso has been up to since David Duke was released from prison.

Jamie Kelso's name came up numerous times during the VB episode and again during the Ron Paul episode.

Given that his only response was an edited cut and paste from the Wiki on Kelso...

=

You mentioned you'd stumbled upon Vanguard. Do you know how many registered members VNN has and who they are affiliated and/or allied with?

That information can also be found by just searching this website.

I should also point out that VNN's involvement in the Christian/Newsome murder case had much to do with the news blackout that followed.

As Channon Christian's father said to VNN, "It ain't about you."

IT
NEVER
WAS,
R

209 Plumed Basilisk  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 11:16:57pm

I just hope that (God forbid) Osbama is elected, that he chooses a decent VP, because I think one of these a$$holes, or their ilk, will off him.

210 canadianally  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 11:27:39pm

What a truly fascinating, if not disheartening, thread this evening. I was taught from a very young age about the horrors of the Holocaust, and racism in America (where I grew up), and find it appalling that there are still folks who espouse these idealogies or beliefs. Although I am in the Western part of Canada, I see anti-Semitic and anti-black sentiment abounding. Whatever. The paradox is that I am anti-radical Islam (which is filled with hate, i.e. Islamists), and I, yes I, have been called a racist. Even though I have no problem with your average, non-radical Muslim. Some folks around my circle of acquaintences can't even understand that (if I were American) I would not vote for Obama because of his idealogies, not his skin colour. Oh well, I am resigned to know that this is a messed up world. And, equally appalling, I find hate on the far right (Ron Paul and company) and far left (Obama and company). Strange. And then, out of left field, I read a NYT article that basically sides with the HRC in Canada and scrapping freedom of speech in America. What the fuck is going on? It stuck in my gut too to see so much hate proliferating on Obama's website. That is just astounding, in and of itself. And then this website LGF linked to yesterday (or the day before) had posters claiming that LGF is far right. I laughed (or shook my head in bewilderment), and could not believe what I was reading. Since when is being anti-hate a far-right position? Is it because I don't hate Jews? I don't hate blacks? I don't hate Muslims?

Good night, and LGF is the best resource on the internet for news. Period. But, then again, all I have is the CBC but that is another post. LOL/

211 ashan  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 11:27:48pm

If BHO (*spit*) wins, he will come to be known as The Great Divider. Never before has a presidential candidate blathered on and on about "healing" divisiveness as this man who has done more in such a short time to bring unprecedented divisiveness to the nation. He has re-introduced radical racial, cultural and - if he gets in - class friction to levels not seen since the '70s and that could easily spark a civil war. The man has very evil ulterior motives, which should be brought to public attention at every turn.

If the white supremacists want BHO elected to spark a race war, you know he has got to be stopped ASAP, before it's too late.

212 canadianally  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 11:36:51pm

re: #211 ashan

If BHO (*spit*) wins, he will come to be known as The Great Divider. Never before has a presidential candidate blathered on and on about "healing" divisiveness as this man who has done more in such a short time to bring unprecedented divisiveness to the nation. He has re-introduced radical racial, cultural and - if he gets in - class friction to levels not seen since the '70s and that could easily spark a civil war. The man has very evil ulterior motives, which should be brought to public attention at every turn.

If the white supremacists want BHO elected to spark a race war, you know he has got to be stopped ASAP, before it's too late.

Yes, I am still awake. LOL. I agree with you. For what it is worth, I have turned friends from America onto LGF from Pennsylvania, Florida, California and Arkansas. It all hinges on convincing those whom we know about the demerits of an Obama presidency. It doesn't help though that the school system is cranking out brainwashed drones, something I never became, nor endured, going to school in Pennsylvania in the ealy 1980's.

213 lostlakehiker  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 11:44:24pm

I despise these "the worse the better" types. They're wrong, of course. The worse, the worse.

What makes them tick, then? I say it's a sullen hatred of everything and everybody. They say it's for the greater eventual good. Yeah, right. There's never a tangible line from here to there. Be it Communism, or Fascism, or whatever, the real zest of these types is for the storm before the calm-that-never-comes.

214 lostlakehiker  Wed, Jun 11, 2008 11:50:59pm

re: #209 Plumed Basilisk

I just hope that (God forbid) Osbama is elected, that he chooses a decent VP, because I think one of these a$$holes, or their ilk, will off him.

No they won't. They won't, because they can't. They don't have the organization of the New Soviet Union, to slip polonium into a drink. Snipers don't have a chance these days.

He needs to make a good choice for political reasons. He's not stupid about politics, so he will make a choice that improves his chances in the general election.

215 American Jewess In Jerusalem  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 1:14:46am

re: #211 ashan

If BHO (*spit*) wins, he will come to be known as The Great Divider. Never before has a presidential candidate blathered on and on about "healing" divisiveness as this man who has done more in such a short time to bring unprecedented divisiveness to the nation. He has re-introduced radical racial, cultural and - if he gets in - class friction to levels not seen since the '70s and that could easily spark a civil war. The man has very evil ulterior motives, which should be brought to public attention at every turn.

If the white supremacists want BHO elected to spark a race war, you know he has got to be stopped ASAP, before it's too late.

Actually, Ashan, I think the Vanguard ilk would stoke a racial fire over any black president, so their reaction is not anything to change one's vote over.

Imagine if Obama were conservative. The blacks would hate him for being an "oreo," the white leftists would back up the blacks' denunciation of him just because they hate conservatives, and the garden variety racists at all points on the political spectrum would be in up in arms over his race (even though he truly is just about the whitest black man I've ever seen). Obama is charming and has a lot going for him. If he had conservative political views, I'd probably be one of the masses following him everywhere.

216 ashan  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 2:11:18am

re: #215 American Jewess In Jerusalem

Actually, even if BHO were a Republican, he would remain repugnant primarily because of his narcissism and taqiyya-based deception. This is a toxic mixture no matter where on the political spectrum a politician resides - especially in one who is a candidate for the presidency. BHO uses his "blackness" as a facade to cover for his extreme radical views. After all, he is also half white.

You would be a fool to follow someone because he's "charming", even if he had more conservative views. Unfortunately many do follow the tempting siren song of "charm", rather than substance. BHO is a dreadful and dangerous individual.

217 american jewess in jerusalem  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 3:04:03am

re: #216 ashan

Now don't try to bait me, Ashan.

I'm acting on the assumption that if Obama were conservative, perhaps he would have some substance. I don't like his politics or his morals, but I'm not going to take away from him the positive traits he has come by honestly.

218 ashan  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 3:16:52am

Just curious, what traits has he come by honestly?

No baiting. Just pointing out that BHO is what he is on whatever side of the political spectrum he might be. Perhaps as a conservative he would take the shape of a white racist Fascist - as radical as a black supremacist Marxist on the left.

219 Ojoe  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 4:24:06am

re: #216 ashan

BHO would be OK if he just stuck to "charm" and were not running for President, IMHO.

He's probably a nice guy on a personal level.

But look at all the debris he attracts, when he's making a bid for power.

220 ashan  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 4:59:05am

re: #219 Ojoe

I wouldn't be so sure that he's such a nice guy. Anyone that manipulative and deceptive and who associates closely over so many years with so many haters and radicals just doesn't count for nice in my book.

My premise is that if the trash he associates with are what he considers to be his stepping stones to power, then he's far more dangerous than what he appears to be. And it's all spilling out because he can't hide under taqiyya-like deception when put in the bright light of public scrutiny. I like a good-looking candidate, but good looks and charm are simply not qualifications to be president. IMHO, BHO's negative aspects simply outweigh anything positive he might contribute, and I simply can't figure out what that might be.

221 DoubleU  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 5:33:59am

re: #13 NJDhockeyfan

Obama has Ron Paul's base?

They always were the same people.

222 vermicelli  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 6:55:23am

"My bet is that whether Obama wins or loses in November, millions of European Americans will inevitably react with new awareness of their heritage and the need for them to defend and advance it.”

thus the german/euro giddiness over this Obama guy.

223 anubis_soundwave  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 7:16:54am

re: #191 mikalm

Just describing the sound I think a "howling moonbat" would make, modeled on an actual bat howling at the moon:

Ergo, a high-pitched cry that sounds like this: "Yeerk, yeerk, yeerk..."

Annoying, isn't it? Just like political moonbats. And if they and the other four groups on my earlier list in #186 would voluntarily leave to found their own ideal societies, everyone would win!

But no: they want to gripe about America and stay, making everyone miserable. Worse, they want to CHANGE America's way of life.

It's...very annoying.

224 Land Shark  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 7:32:22am

These white supremacists would be pathetic if they weren't such dangerous, racist bastards. Fortunately, they are few (though even a few is too many) and most white people have the good sense to stay away from them.

I do agree with them an Obama presidency would be a very, very bad thing for the country, but that's due to his ideals, not the color of his skin. If they think that's gonna get millions of whites to become racists like them they have another thing coming. Idiots.

225 TalkinKamel  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:27:22am

re: #222 vermicelli

Um, my "European heritage" is a mixture of Irish and Gypsy.

I somehow think this guy would not approve of my rediscovering that.

(As for things like European art, architecture, writers like Dickens, Shakespeare, Chaucer, you don't have to be European to like them, and I suspect this guy doesn't really care for books, or art, or anything that much.)

226 TalkinKamel  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:31:54am

re: #184 Ojoe

More and more, I'm beginning to see our country's current problems as conflict between Left/right (which are, essentially, the same thing) and the centerists.

Maybe we should start calling all the sane center people "Lizards."

227 TalkinKamel  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:32:33am

Left, Right and Lizard!

(Go Lizards! Hey, if the Dems have the donkey, and the Republicans have the elephant, the centerists can have the lizard!)

228 TalkinKamel  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:36:58am

re: #181 mikalm

Yes, I think that's exactly the reason that so many right-wingers are starting to come out of the closet, so to speak; the Left has made anti-semetism respectable again, and these creeps love that!

The ties between Left and Right might be a bit strained in Europe at the moment, but, let them find the right cause: Anti-Israel, anti-America, and they'll be bosom pals again. I think "Left" and "Right" are actually bad terms to use for the sort of militant hate we're seeing these days. ("Right" tends to get equated with "Conservative" which it really isn't.)

229 TalkinKamel  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:40:53am

re: #178 pegcity

Oh. Oh "joy"! (There's some days I just don't like being right! There are some days when really like to be wrong in my predictions!)

I do think a facist/moonbat alliance is all too likely in our future. These guys have more in common than one might think.

Seriously, MikalM, read "Liberal Facism".

230 Joseph K.  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:41:10am

It's not just American neo-Nazis who are watching Obama's campaign. In the UK, the BNP's "legal advisor" had this to say:

"The sickening sight of watching young brainwashed whites voting for Obama because the media told them too simply because he was black, was a sign of a deep sickness both in American society and its white youth."

No prizes either for guessing his preferred candidate:

"But the best news of all is that an Obama victory virtually guarantees a Republican President and John McCain in the Whitehouse [sic] at the next election. Though I would prefer to see Ron Paul elected..."

[Link: www.nonsolonews.net...]

Never mind, Nazi. I'm sure Crazy Uncle Ron will be a shoe-in in 2012...

231 TalkinKamel  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:47:40am

re: #230 Joseph K.

All of those who still say we ought to support Vlaams Belang and BNP, please take note.

232 Ian_the_terrible  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 10:23:30am

Does anyone else see major paralells between the hope of these Nazis and classic Marxist doctrine? Marxists welcomed fascism to the extent that it was supposed to be the last dying breath before a proletariat uprising. In other words, fascism (an extreme form of capitalism, to them) was nescessary for communism to succeed. To the American Nazis, black people in power are necessary for us white folk to see how subhuman they are. Plus, check the name: Vanguard.

233 TalkinKamel  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 10:36:09am

re: #232 Ian_the_terrible

I see lots of paralells between Nazi and Marxist doctrine.

234 Q[deleted]  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 1:12:42pm
235 KevinV[deleted]  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 5:02:58pm
236 Charles  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 5:07:19pm

Lawrence Auster is a lunatic. And he is very much a supporter of Eurofascist groups. He has launched some really ugly attacks against me and against LGF for speaking out against those fascist groups. I'm curious about why you would stick up for someone like that?

And as for the SPLC, there are facts in this article. Deal with them.

237 Charles  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 5:09:04pm

re: #234 Q

You may disagree with their politics or philosophy, but it's ludicrous to call Lawrence Auster or Ian Jobling, of all people, "pro-nazi", let alone "neo-nazi" (unless your definition of a nazi is "someone I deem totally uncool").

Auster is a traditionalist conservative and an outspoken critic of paleocon pathologies. (Also, he's of Jewish ancestry.)

Jobling broke with American Renaissance over their failure to decisively disassociate themselves from the real nazi scum. He's a supporter of Jews and Israel and an opponent of Ron Paul.

SPLC hysterics is a poor guide to the actual state of things.

I am learning exactly what you're about, Q. And I don't like it one bit. Ian Jobling is a flat-out racist.

238 Charles  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 5:17:20pm

After reviewing Q's recent posts, and the links he's been posting, his barely-disguised racism is no longer welcome at LGF.

239 Typicalwhitey  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 5:20:03pm

re: #238 Charles

After reviewing Q's recent posts, and the links he's been posting, his barely-disguised racism is no longer welcome at LGF.


Fast draw McCharles!

240 Josephine  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 5:44:09pm

re: #236 Charles

Lawrence Auster is a lunatic. And he is very much a supporter of Eurofascist groups. He has launched some really ugly attacks against me and against LGF for speaking out against those fascist groups. I'm curious about why you would stick up for someone like that?

And as for the SPLC, there are facts in this article. Deal with them.

I had to do an internet search because I'm not familiar with Lawrence Auster.

It seems that one of his readers has drawn his attention to this thread; it's featured on his blog. Cripes.

241 Charles  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 5:48:05pm

Auster was fired from David Horowitz's FrontPage. That should tell you something.

242 Josephine  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 5:49:49pm

re: #241 Charles

Thanks, it does.

Auster is described on the web as a "traditionalist conservative". Is that a code for something?

243 Charles  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 5:50:58pm

re: #242 Josephine

Thanks, it does.

Auster is described on the web as a "traditionalist conservative". Is that a code for something?

Yes, actually ... it's code for "fascist sympathizing scumbag."

244 Josephine  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 6:02:31pm

re: #243 Charles

LOL, thanks again.

My Google search brought up some praise for him from David Duke and the folks at Stormfront (I won't go to their websites).

I learned some new code words in some of the threads about the VB and their ilk. Of course, I can't remember them all now, but there was some kind of "Christian" group for racists and various paleo-whatevers.

245 Render  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 6:11:55pm

Larry, you dumbass racist wannabe nazi.

I don't need to prove it about you anymore.

You did that yourself when you admitted on Ian Joblings website that you were *still* just a phone call away from Jared Taylor.

Do you think you shit in a vacuum?

NO
MEAN
CITY,
R

246 Charles  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 6:13:30pm

re: #244 Josephine

LOL, thanks again.

My Google search brought up some praise for him from David Duke and the folks at Stormfront (I won't go to their websites).

I learned some new code words in some of the threads about the VB and their ilk. Of course, I can't remember them all now, but there was some kind of "Christian" group for racists and various paleo-whatevers.

There are quite a few people masquerading as "mainstream conservatives" who are crypto-fascists. Pat Buchanan is by far the most visible, but when you dig down you find people like Auster and Jobling and Jared Taylor and Vdare.com and their fellow travelers.

I don't want anything to do with these people. They're not conservatives, they're Neanderthals, no matter how they try to dress it up in deceptive language.

247 SunCat  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 6:16:29pm

Note that "worse is better" is a strategic doctrine for Communists as well. Also somehigh ranking KKK figures turned out to be KGB agents. Sick minds think alike.

248 Josephine  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 6:28:22pm

re: #246 Charles

Agreed. Well said.

I've only read about Pat Buchanan via LGF. I also read an article about Jared Taylor that J.S. linked to in an LGF thread.

I'm now reading Auster's article (on the web) about "race and intelligence". It's sickening. He definitely is a racist. He mentions an interview someone did with Jared Taylor, as if he was a valid source.

He seems to be that new breed of racist that dresses up their ugly ideas with a lot of pseudo-scientific or pseudo-factual verbiage. (Lies and more lies tied up with a blabbing tongue.)

Thanks again for your website, Charles. I learn a lot here. I'm glad you have integrity and will stand up for what is right. We can't use other people's racism or violence as an excuse to indulge in it ourselves.

(I hope it's okay to address you by your first name. I feel a bit awkward doing it because I'm old-fashioned that way.)

249 Fredlike  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 6:58:59pm

re: #232 Ian_the_terrible

Does anyone else see major paralells between the hope of these Nazis and classic Marxist doctrine? Marxists welcomed fascism to the extent that it was supposed to be the last dying breath before a proletariat uprising. In other words, fascism (an extreme form of capitalism, to them) was nescessary for communism to succeed. To the American Nazis, black people in power are necessary for us white folk to see how subhuman they are. Plus, check the name: Vanguard.

Fascism is not an extreme form of capitalism, it is a very much left wing political movement. It is focused on Nationalism as opposed to internationalism like communism. The communist hate the fascist because the teachings are too close and might keep people from being commie.

Read the book LIberal Fascism, for more info.

250 J.S.  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 7:04:20pm

re: #248 Josephine
hi Josephine...
iirc, the article was "How not to handle a genteel racist" by Joseph Brean, published in the National Post, Jan. 27, 2007...I believe that was the article (?) (The article described how Jared Taylor was able to gain all sorts of attention -- thanks to a university invitation to a "debate" which was later revoked...)

251 Josephine  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 7:22:03pm

re: #250 J.S.

Hi, J.S. Yes, that was the article. It was very informative.

252 KevinV[deleted]  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 7:52:33pm
253 Charles  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:03:38pm

re: #252 KevinV

Thanks for making that perfectly clear. You're free to post that kind of fascist-sympathizing garbage at your own site, but not at LGF. Bye.

254 AlphaMu42[deleted]  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:18:21pm
255 snowtravel  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:21:13pm

re: #253 Charles

Not at LGF indeed. Very admirable.

256 Charles  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:25:17pm

Anyone else want to come out of the woodwork?

257 snowtravel  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:25:59pm

re: #232 Ian_the_terrible

Sheez, here we go again. Was everyone asleep during history class? Hitler's whole spiel was anti-socialist. That's why he had no problem attacking Russia. This is revisionism, pure and simple.

258 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:27:09pm

The Obama presidency is going to be tough on us. Conservatism may be ready for a little nap. I the mean time we can all decide what we want to wake up as.

259 Sharmuta  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:27:24pm

That was quick, Stinky. Thanks.

260 Render  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:28:33pm

"traditionalist American (Auster)"

What is that? Segregationist? Jim Crow?

Auster is a White Nationalist, I've never seen him dispute the title in print. I freely admit that I've not read everything that Auster's ever written, (nor Duke, nor Farrakhan for that matter), so it's possible he's issued such a denial.

Given that Auster one of a tiny handful of Jews (or ex-Jews as Auster is reputed to be) to have received praise from storm front for his writings. Given that Auster's peer group seems to include the rest of the White Nationalist "community." Given that Auster has already freely admitted to being just one phone call away from Jared Taylor.

ACTIONS
OVERRULE
WORDS,
R

261 Sharmuta  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:28:45pm

re: #257 snowtravel

He was a socialist- a national socialist. He opposed communism which was an internationalist socialism.

262 Lewis[deleted]  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:29:47pm
263 Charles  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:30:35pm

re: #262 Lewis


KevinV is right. Go away.

264 stormi[deleted]  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:31:52pm
265 snowtravel  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:33:39pm

No re: #261 Sharmuta

No Sharmuta. The Nazis were not socialists, despite the misleading name.

I'm just amazed at the revisionism and ignorance. You ought to be ashamed.

266 swamprat  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:33:53pm

re: #254 AlphaMu42
You miss the point here is the money quote:

At all costs, Islamism must be defeated and the Islamification of our nations must be stopped.


I for one cling to those values of the "American right", that he so willingly dismisses. The value I especially respect is the one where we tell racists to go take a hike! Want to see American right-wing values? Look at the civil war! That was a Republican war. Lincolns' war. He was a republican. And I still admire his ideas, and you can go ...Anyway the phrase "at all costs" is a phrase I categorically reject.

267 swamprat  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:36:35pm

They're like frickin pod people!

268 Syrah  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:37:12pm

re: #267 swamprat

They're like frickin pod people!

Makes you afraid to sleep.

269 Charles  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:37:36pm

I'm glad they're revealing themselves.

Anyone else?

270 Pvt Bin Jammin  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:38:07pm

re: #267 swamprat

They're like frickin pod people!


ROTFLMAO

Indeed. Wonder how many more there are?

271 Render  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:41:22pm

wtf.

And these people are supposed to be educated?

Skinheads, DocMartins, _itler salutes, nazi party trappings, and the like are not "traditional European" anything, you assholes.

The US is not returning to segregation or Jim Crow, no matter how "traditional" you and the rest of your White Nationalist ilk might think it to be.

Did you skip 1945 in history class? Did you miss that whole Civil War-Civil Rights thing?

GOD DAMN
THE
PUSHERMAN,
R

272 Sharmuta  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:41:27pm
Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of rent-slavery.

Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).

We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.

We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.

We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.

The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the State must be striven for by the school [Staatsbuergerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.

The State is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.

This is from the nazi platform. This isn't exactly "right-wing" here. It's socialism.

273 swamprat  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:42:07pm

re: #257 snowtravel
Revisionist is right. The peoples' car. Workers party. Racism, yes, but for the so-called "good" of the "people". He absolutely was a socialist.

274 snowtravel  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:42:48pm

Question: why delete posts like 262, which is reprinted in 263 anyway?

275 MandyManners  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:43:21pm

re: #244 Josephine

LOL, thanks again.

My Google search brought up some praise for him from David Duke and the folks at Stormfront (I won't go to their websites).

I learned some new code words in some of the threads about the VB and their ilk. Of course, I can't remember them all now, but there was some kind of "Christian" group for racists and various paleo-whatevers.

Christian Identity. Vile beyond belief.

276 Charles  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:45:21pm

And now, of course, I'm getting hate mail.

277 snowtravel  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:46:12pm

re: #272 Sharmuta

Sharmuta, Hitler never followed the "platform." He was about pure, unadulterated racism. You just don't get it.

Read Shirer's Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, the seminal and still the single best work on Nazi Germany. Then you'll be in a position to debate.

278 snowtravel  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:47:24pm

re: #276 Charles

And now, of course, I'm getting hate mail.

Do we get to see it?

279 Macker  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:47:36pm

re: #246 Charles

There are quite a few people masquerading as "mainstream conservatives" who are crypto-fascists. Pat Buchanan is by far the most visible, but when you dig down you find people like Auster and Jobling and Jared Taylor and Vdare.com and their fellow travelers.

I don't want anything to do with these people. They're not conservatives, they're Neanderthals, no matter how they try to dress it up in deceptive language.

What pisses me off is how Human Events continues to carry Pat Buchanan!

280 swamprat  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:48:27pm

re: #277 snowtravel
She's in one now! En guarde!

281 snowtravel  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:49:14pm

re: #273 swamprat

You're basing an important political-historical argument on the early Volkswagen?

Boy, are we in trouble here.

282 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:49:40pm

re: #276 Charles


Dear Charles,
You stink.
Warmest regards,
Adolf Von Fascist


/

283 swamprat  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:52:29pm

re: #281 snowtravel

No, the name. Everything was phrased out of the socialists lexicon. He certainly painted himself as a socialist. And those trade unions in germany had real power, not just trappings.

284 stevieray  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:53:50pm

re: #272 Sharmuta

I'd love to get a link to that source. I know a few people in the meatworld that need to see that. Thanks!

285 gman  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:54:02pm

re: #277 snowtravel

Sharmuta, Hitler never followed the "platform." He was about pure, unadulterated racism. You just don't get it.

Read Shirer's Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, the seminal and still the single best work on Nazi Germany. Then you'll be in a position to debate.

His platform was "pure, unadulterated racism." That's a knee- jerk answer without any substance. Care to elaborate?

286 snowtravel  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:54:48pm

re: #283 swamprat

No, the name. Everything was phrased out of the socialists lexicon. He certainly painted himself as a socialist. And those trade unions in germany had real power, not just trappings.

I'm going to be patient.

Hitler abolished the trade unions, just after coming to power. Look it up.

287 swamprat  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:55:58pm

Lefties need love, too.

288 Sharmuta  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 8:58:07pm

re: #284 stevieray

Here's the link from wiki: The 25 point program. I compared this list to the one used by Jonah Goldberg- it's the same.

289 swamprat  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 9:05:47pm

re: #286 snowtravel

Thanks for your patience, red.

290 snowtravel  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 9:09:13pm

re: #285 gman

His platform was "pure, unadulterated racism." That's a knee- jerk answer without any substance. Care to elaborate?

It's a well-considered answer, but sure I'll elaborate. Hitler wasn't well-read or educated, and apart from his malevolent theory of race relations, there really was very little to his "philosophy" (if you can call it that).

Hitler's most important "contribution" to German politics was to absolve Germans of responsibility for the many problems they faced after WWI and the disastrous Versailles treaty. With the worldwide Great Depression in full swing, he placed responsibility for all Germany's ills squarely on the Jews, which he saw as the enemies of all civilization.

As for the substance of his "platform," he forbade any discussion of party policy after about 1925, and he never wrote anything other than Mein Kampf. Many of his "policies" weren't much more than murderous whim: the repeated purges come to mind. Hence it's crazy to cite the pre-Hitler Nazi platform as evidence of his policy or politics.

That's why I dismiss his thinking as pure, unadulterated racism.

291 Sharmuta  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 9:10:24pm

re: #285 gman

His platform was "pure, unadulterated racism." That's a knee- jerk answer without any substance. Care to elaborate?

What I'd like to know is what is the point of this point of contention?

292 swamprat  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 9:13:00pm

re: #286 snowtravel
..Seems you were right about him dissolving the trade unions.

293 Render  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 9:13:51pm

re: #277 snowtravel

I have it in hard copy sitting in front of me.

They were socialists in 1919 when _itler joined the German Workers Party (pg 22).

They were still socialists when they released their 25 point program(pg23), chose the swastika as their emblem (pg25), and changed the party's name to National Socialist German Workers Party in 1920 (pg27).

William L. Shirer said they were socialists. Basil Liddell Hart said they were socialists. Winston Churchill said they were socialists.

They were socialists then, they are socialists now.

REVISE
THIS,
R

294 Sharmuta  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 9:16:27pm

Nevermind that I called the nazis socialists and not hitler...

295 gman  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 9:17:16pm

re: #291 Sharmuta

What I'd like to know is what is the point of this point of contention?

Yeah, what gives Snowtravel? It sounds like you believe Hitler was against statism when it's clear that the Nazi state had its fingers in all segments of society.

296 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 9:17:57pm

re: #293 Render

Go Man Go !

297 snowtravel  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 9:18:05pm

re: #288 Sharmuta

Here's the link from wiki: The 25 point program. I compared this list to the one used by Jonah Goldberg- it's the same.

Apparently your only authority is Goldberg, whose work is controversial at best and revisionist at worst.

Cite an authoritative source—I mean one that's historical, and universally respected like Shirer—that Hitler followed the platform.

Just one.

You might also explain why Hitler abolished trade unions. And banned, jailed and murdered communists and socialists.

298 swamprat  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 9:19:14pm

Socialists are never socialists, anyway. They are power-mad con artists who pretend to give out bread and circuses in order to enslave. And that's the truth.

299 Sharmuta  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 9:19:39pm

re: #297 snowtravel

Goldberg sited Nuremberg. Is that good enough for you?!

300 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 9:19:46pm

re: #297 snowtravel

Jonah Goldberg is revisionist?

You are losing your argument...
Besides the fact that you are a damn fool or think that we are, you are slippin' away...

301 stevieray  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 9:20:57pm

re: #290 snowtravel

The danger in that is it allows people to skim over the history of the rise of the Nazis, and lets them treat it like it was a "one of a kind" event. If people think the Nazis were only about racism, they will miss many of the warning signs.

I think the folks who dismiss Hitler as "crazy" do the same thing. It leaves the common man on guard for a wild-eyed Manson type, but completely open to the sane sounding smooth talker, promising to improve the nation if we'd just surrender a little more power to the state... for the common good, of course.

302 snowtravel  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 9:24:13pm

re: #293 Render

I have it in hard copy sitting in front of me.

They were socialists in 1919 when _itler joined the German Workers Party (pg 22).

They were still socialists when they released their 25 point program(pg23), chose the swastika as their emblem (pg25), and changed the party's name to National Socialist German Workers Party in 1920 (pg27).

William L. Shirer said they were socialists. Basil Liddell Hart said they were socialists. Winston Churchill said they were socialists.

They were socialists then, they are socialists now.

REVISE
THIS,
R

Nonsense. All of that predated Hitler's rise to power. Read on.

Sharmuta, the Nazis before Hitler were irrelevant in Germany (or anywhere for that matter). Hitler took over the party and hence his name is forever associated with "Nazi."

303 Sharmuta  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 9:25:46pm

re: #302 snowtravel

Sick.

304 MajorPribluda  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 9:29:35pm

re: #257 snowtravel

Sheez, here we go again. Was everyone asleep during history class? Hitler's whole spiel was anti-socialist. That's why he had no problem attacking Russia. This is revisionism, pure and simple.

Wrong. Hitler's schpiel was anti-communist. Italian fascism (from Fasci di Combattimento, the origin of the movement, founded by Mussolini on March 23, 1919) included planks such as:

lowering the voting age to 18,
a minimum wage
state guarantee of a workday limited to eight hours
expropriation of uncultivated land
the creation of "rigidly secular" schools for the raising of "the proletariat's moral and cultural condition"
"a large progressive tax on capital that would amount to a one-time partial expropriation of all riches"
seizure of church properties
"sequestration of 85% of all war profits"
and the nationalization of all arms and explosives industries


among many others. (taken from LIBERAL FASCISM, Jonah Goldberg)

Fascism was explicitly socialist. National Socialism was explicitly socialist.

It is you who are revising history.

305 swamprat  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 9:31:09pm

tough crowd

306 Carridine  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 9:32:03pm

re: #305 swamprat
And rightly so, Swampy!

307 snowtravel  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 9:33:07pm

re: #301 stevieray

The danger in that is it allows people to skim over the history of the rise of the Nazis, and lets them treat it like it was a "one of a kind" event. If people think the Nazis were only about racism, they will miss many of the warning signs.

I think the folks who dismiss Hitler as "crazy" do the same thing. It leaves the common man on guard for a wild-eyed Manson type, but completely open to the sane sounding smooth talker, promising to improve the nation if we'd just surrender a little more power to the state... for the common good, of course.

I couldn't agree more, which is why calling Hitler a socialist—and comparing him to today's left—is so dangerous and profoundly ignorant.

Here's the salient point: Hitler skillfully manipulated and lied to his people, his allies, to everyone. That he usurped the Nazi party is one of the great ironies of the time. The National Socialist name wasn't at all descriptive of Hitler's Germany, a fact that's misleading people here today.

Like I said, ironic.

About the only thing Hitler was consistent about was his hatred of the Jews.

308 swamprat  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 9:34:06pm

re: #306 Carridine mornin', carridine!

309 gman  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 9:35:01pm

re: #303 Sharmuta

Sick.

and disturbing.
The facade is dissolving.

310 swamprat  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 9:36:36pm

No popcorn. One cup of tea and off to bed.

311 Carridine  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 9:37:21pm

re: #308 swamprat
Back atcha, Swampy!

1135 in beautiful downtown Bangkok, high atop the ___ building, as I craft financial reports for consumption by and alongside Bloomberg, Reuters and others...

Going home in 10 minutes... catch you as K
arridine :D

312 Syrah  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 9:38:12pm

Hitler used an avowedly and a commonly acknowledged national socialist movement to attain power.

Why is there a need to separate Hitler from the political movement that he used to attain power?

313 snowtravel  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 9:38:35pm

re: #304 MajorPribluda

You are making the same error as Sharmuta. Italian Fascists and Nazis had almost nothing in common. Read, for example, A. James Gregor's "The Fascist Persuasion in Radical Politics." I understand his more recent work is excellent too.

314 snowtravel  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 9:39:11pm

(And yes, Italian Fascists were committed socialists.)

315 swamprat  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 9:46:19pm

It doesn't matter what it's called. It's the same promise of granting power, or ease, or revenge, or whatever the golden wienie happens to be; and all you have to do is give up your rights, your integrity, your land, your love of your country, your self-rule, etc. ..Often the promises are actually kept...but what a cost. Right-wing, or left, the game is always afoot; what is the correct choice. Which road takes the least evil route.

316 swamprat  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 9:47:57pm

re: #311 Carridine

Enjoy your day, Carridine.

317 snowtravel  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 9:52:37pm

re: #315 swamprat

It doesn't matter what it's called. It's the same promise of granting power, or ease, or revenge, or whatever the golden wienie happens to be; and all you have to do is give up your rights, your integrity, your land, your love of your country, your self-rule, etc. ..Often the promises are actually kept...but what a cost. Right-wing, or left, the game is always afoot; what is the correct choice. Which road takes the least evil route.

Precisely. Now we are speaking a common language.

Perhaps what most distinguishes radical movements—right, left, high, low, whatever—is a proclaimed monopoly on truth itself. Hitler did it. Mussolini did it. Stalin did it. Mao did it. The Ayatollah Khomeini did it. (I could go on.) All different politics, but a common "style" in professing certainty.

And that's always a lie.

318 nikis-knight  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 9:53:53pm

re: #241 Charles

Auster was fired from David Horowitz's FrontPage. That should tell you something.

Hmm, is there something I should know about FrontPage mag? I had a vaguely favorable opinion so far, but you phrase it such that it seems you think they are on the fringe?

319 snowtravel  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 9:58:08pm

re: #312 Syrah

Hitler used an avowedly and a commonly acknowledged national socialist movement to attain power.

Why is there a need to separate Hitler from the political movement that he used to attain power?

To be precise, they shouldn't be separated. But it's essential to understand the discontinuity here: the Nazis before Hitler and the Nazis under Hitler were of a very different character. As just one example, the former was socialist, and the latter wasn't. By the same token, the "Fuhrerprincip" (the "leader principle") so essential to Hitler was unheard of before him.

320 swamprat  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 10:02:34pm

re: #317 snowtravel
Not quite. The promise is that the state will take on the burdens of the people and all the people have to do is...that's the bad part. Actually both sections of the "agreement" are bad. When you give someone else your burden you lose something. And then you have to give up something else to get that so-called benefit. But roads need to be built, the wounded healed, the children educated, the garbage collected. It's a twisty road. And Hitler got elected as a socialist.

321 talon_262  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 10:09:23pm

re: #253 Charles

Thanks for making that perfectly clear. You're free to post that kind of fascist-sympathizing garbage at your own site, but not at LGF. Bye.

BAM!

/Emeril mode off ;-)

322 snowtravel  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 10:11:38pm

re: #320 swamprat

I thought I'd found something we agree on, but perhaps not.

Truly, it's very telling that you say Hitler got elected as a socialist—missing entirely the most pertinent feature of his "platform," namely his intense and unwavering racism. (It's like the hatred of the left is so profound in here, people can't even see straight.) I said it before and I'll say it again: it's ironic. Especially in a thread such as this.

323 Pvt Bin Jammin  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 10:20:06pm

re: #320 swamprat
Heh, you got a mention over at the "Distorted Lies" blog. The pod people. LOL

324 Syrah  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 10:24:11pm

re: #319 snowtravel

Your concern for the "discontinuity" seems to me to be the making of a mountain out of a molehill.

Why are you so motivated to disassociate Hitler with the national socialist movement that he used to attain power?

325 swamprat  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 10:28:14pm

re: #322 snowtravel
Leftism is a drug that promises much but delivers much more...Actually it is just the most current tool; any "ism" can be used. Socialism has some good points. Child labor laws, and yes, socialised medicine(if done right), equal rights(but not for fetuses),...While socialism has the potential for good, too often it is just an excuse to run rough shod over the populace while pretending to do them good. But anything can be used in such a manner, this is just the most successful and popular method currently. Ayn Randism shows promise, and I expect environmentalism to break out on its own any day now. Christianity was in vogue for a season,and atheism may yet have a run. It is an interesting world...goodnight

326 swamprat  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 10:29:12pm

re: #323 Pvt Bin Jammin

Thanks

327 Pvt Bin Jammin  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 10:35:12pm

re: #326 swamprat
They do keep multiplying!

328 snowtravel  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 10:53:39pm

re: #324 Syrah

Your concern for the "discontinuity" seems to me to be the making of a mountain out of a molehill.

Why are you so motivated to disassociate Hitler with the national socialist movement that he used to attain power?

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify once again: I'm not one bit "motivated to disassociate Hitler" from Nazis.

Rather, I'm concerned because lizards are wrongly claiming that Hitler was a socialist, based in large part on the Nazi platform before his rise to power. It's an affront to anyone who cares about history or truth.

329 NomadOfNorad  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 10:54:13pm

re: #276 Charles

And now, of course, I'm getting hate mail.

Cherish the hate-mail, Charles. It means you're hitting the target. A lot.

330 Render  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 10:58:03pm

re: #302 snowtravel

Read on the revisionist demands, and so...

We turn to pg 45 (Rebuilding the Party) and we see that in 1928 they were still called the National Socialist Party.

We turn to pg 95 where we see that they were still calling themselves the National Socialist Party in 1938.

Pg 185 (The Invasion of Russia) They stilled called themselves National Socialism in 1941.

Tell ya what I'll just skip to the end...

On page 246 we find a Shirer paraphrased quote from the lunatic corporal himself.

"Now it was ended, he said, and so was National Socialism"
-April 29 1945.

GOTTER
DAMMERUNG
IST
KAPUT,
R

331 Syrah  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 11:05:24pm

re: #328 snowtravel

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify once again: I'm not one bit "motivated to disassociate Hitler" from Nazis.

Rather, I'm concerned because lizards are wrongly claiming that Hitler was a socialist, based in large part on the Nazi platform before his rise to power. It's an affront to anyone who cares about history or truth.

Lizards are not wrongly claiming that Hitler was a socialist. Lizards are making that claim rightly. Hitler, the leader of a national socialist movement was a national socialist.

Why do you need to claim that the leader of a national socialist movement was not a national socialist?

332 Pvt Bin Jammin  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 11:05:29pm

Somehow this blog posted on the Obama thread bothered me a lot, more than some of the euro-nazi threads. We are Americans here. I am as white as they come and I treasure my friends of all cultures and creeds.

Scr_w you nazis and stormfront assholes.

Race war? I will fight with the decent people. We have learned how to get along.

333 gman  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 11:23:54pm

Snowtravel, I suggest you check out Goldberg's and Goldhagen's works. You'll find out that Hitler wasn't acting alone, but that he was the voice for many others. There are facts upon facts to back that up. I wouldn't put all of my eggs in one basket with regards to the journalist Shirer. I read Shirer's book many years ago myself and held your paradigm of Hitler for quite a long time.
Unfortunately, the paradigm doesn't hold up under close scrutiny, especially in light of the numerous evidence given by Goldhagen indicating the hatred for Jews among the German populace.

334 snowtravel  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 11:39:26pm

re: #330 Render

Read on the revisionist demands, and so...

We turn to pg 45 (Rebuilding the Party) and we see that in 1928 they were still called the National Socialist Party.

We turn to pg 95 where we see that they were still calling themselves the National Socialist Party in 1938.

Pg 185 (The Invasion of Russia) They stilled called themselves National Socialism in 1941.

Tell ya what I'll just skip to the end...

On page 246 we find a Shirer paraphrased quote from the lunatic corporal himself.

"Now it was ended, he said, and so was National Socialism"
-April 29 1945.

GOTTER
DAMMERUNG
IST
KAPUT,
R

Your argument boils down to this: if the Nazis called themselves socialists, then they were socialists. Which makes you, my friend, a modern dupe of Nazi dissembling and propaganda: That's truly something I never thought I'd live to see.

Socialists seek to eliminate distinctions based on class; Nazis fostered a society deeply divided into classes (ubermenschen and untermenschen). Socialists value unions and collective bargaining; Nazis eliminated them (in some cases literally). Socialists favor community ownership of property including industry; Nazis fostered private ownership insofar as it served Nazi (i.e., military) ends. Socialists seek collective decision-making (certainly in theory); the Nazis under Hitler hewed rigidly to the Fuhrerprincip. At the national level, socialism has failed virtually everywhere it's been tried; in the years leading up to WWII, Nazi Germany thrived (albeit at the terrible expense of Jews and others). Socialists envision a future devoid of government; Hitler saw the Reich's totalitarian dictatorship lasting a thousand years.

Nazis were murderous, anti-Semitic, totalitarian, cruel, statist, nationalist, expansionist, intolerant, racist and many other things: they were not, however, socialists in any meaningful sense.

335 snowtravel  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 11:52:08pm

re: #333 gman

I've just read one of Goldberg's articles and found it stunningly biased: not an academic work or a history, but rather an argument against "the Left." (Goldhagen I don't know.) Just one of Goldberg's many errors is conflating Nazis with Fascists, a mistake that's repeated here.

You're right about Shirer, but I nevertheless recommend him because his account is personal and reads well. Of course there are better academic works than his, but the ones I've seen aren't as approachable. AFAIK, no one really disputes the substance of Shirer's historical account.

As to the "paradigm," can you clarify? FYI, I am quite familiar with the long history of anti-Semitism, both in pre-war Germany and elsewhere.

336 MigueldowninMexico  Thu, Jun 12, 2008 11:57:16pm

I don't see why it is important to decide if the Nazis were left or right.

I remember Charles once said they were nothing. They were just a bunch of opportunists that would resort to anything that could help them get and keep power.
(Not very different to most Marxists, actually)

337 MigueldowninMexico  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 12:00:54am

Charles
Thanks for the ID #!
Another gentle feature from you :)

338 MigueldowninMexico  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 12:04:25am

re: #332 Pvt Bin Jammin

Somehow this blog posted on the Obama thread bothered me a lot, more than some of the euro-nazi threads. We are Americans here. I am as white as they come and I treasure my friends of all cultures and creeds.

Scr_w you nazis and stormfront assholes.

Race war? I will fight with the decent people. We have learned how to get along.

Is this Popist beaner your friend then? lol

/I know we're meeting someday in Pueblo de Los Angeles ;)

339 snowtravel  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 12:09:22am

re: #336 MigueldowninMexico

I don't see why it is important to decide if the Nazis were left or right.

It's not. I've said many times that the simplistic "left-right" dichotomy is a hindrance to analyzing domestic politics, but it's utterly worthless in the international arena. Shame that it persists.

340 Render  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 12:15:00am

re: #334 snowtravel

The Führerprinzip had a precedent or three. Lenin, Mussolini, and Stalin. All forms of the same socialist evil.

===

A dupe? If so then I'm hardly alone.

As I've already pointed out, every single respected historian of the era called them National Socialists. To the list of historians on the subject that I previously posted you can add Cornelius Ryan, col Albert Seaton and John Erickson.

Encyclopedia Britannica calls them National Socialists.

The Oxford English Dictionary calls them National Socialists.

Even Stalin called the National Socialists.

To this day the lunatics that follow their ideology still call themselves National Socialists.

Because that's what they are.

===

A socialist policy is abhorrent to the British ideas of freedom. Socialism is inseparably interwoven with totalitarianism and the object worship of the state. It will prescribe for every one where they are to work, what they are to work at, where they may go and what they may say. Socialism is an attack on the right to breathe freely. No socialist system can be established without a political police. They would have to fall back on some form of Gestapo, no doubt very humanely directed in the first instance.

Winston Churchill - 1945

===

It is you who are attempting to revise history by insisting that the National Socialists were not one of many forms of socialism to afflict humanity in the 20th century.

CEASE
AND
DESIST,
R

341 Syrah  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 12:20:00am

re: #334 snowtravel

Your avoidance of Occam's razor has you twisting yourself into an impossible contortion.

Nationalism and Socialism are not mutually exclusive.

342 LeePro  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 12:22:48am

Y'all come upstairs — 2 flights!   ⤴

I'm going to bed, but everyone else is there!

'Nite!

343 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 12:40:49am

re: #340 Render

Do a little digging- the nazis were also "simplistic" according to this one.

344 snowtravel  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 12:44:22am

re: #340 Render

The Führerprinzip had a precedent or three. Lenin, Mussolini, and Stalin. All forms of the same socialist evil.

That's false (and of course you provide no citation). While all those you mention were totalitarian (and arguably socialist) dictators, none ever espoused a "leader principle" as Hitler understood it, let alone adopted it as policy.

A dupe? If so then I'm hardly alone.

Not in here you're not.

As I've already pointed out, every single respected historian of the era called them National Socialists. To the list of historians on the subject that I previously posted you can add Cornelius Ryan, col Albert Seaton and John Erickson.

Encyclopedia Britannica calls them National Socialists.

The Oxford English Dictionary calls them National Socialists.

Even Stalin called the National Socialists.

To this day the lunatics that follow their ideology still call themselves National Socialists.

Because that's what they are.

Again you're talking labels not policy; words not deeds. In persisting you're now doing it deliberately. In other words, you're a willing dupe to Nazi lies. Wow.

A socialist policy is abhorrent to the British ideas of freedom. Socialism is inseparably interwoven with totalitarianism and the object worship of the state. It will prescribe for every one where they are to work, what they are to work at, where they may go and what they may say. Socialism is an attack on the right to breathe freely. No socialist system can be established without a political police. They would have to fall back on some form of Gestapo, no doubt very humanely directed in the first instance.

Winston Churchill - 1945

The quote appears to be from a speech during Churchill's election campaign, in which he spoke out against the labor policies of Clement Attlee (the latter won). What has this to do with Hitler being a socialist?

It is you who are attempting to revise history by insisting that the National Socialists were not one of many forms of socialism to afflict humanity in the 20th century.

Q.E.D.

345 snowtravel  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 12:48:45am

re: #343 Sharmuta

"Do a little digging- the nazis were also "simplistic" according to this one."

Correct. And "this one" stands by that position: nothing simpler than hate; and that, Sharmuta, was the centerpiece and defining characteristic of Nazi thought.

346 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 1:09:49am

re: #345 snowtravel

I think you do evil a favor by chalking it up to simplicity.

347 snowtravel  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 1:26:22am

re: #346 Sharmuta

I think you do evil a favor by chalking it up to simplicity.

Quite the contrary: My message, if you'd bother to hear it, is to pause and consider the real human consequences of our politics: to gather evidence; to weigh alternatives; to credit opposing views. All these things are hard to do.

The Nazis quite simply did none of them. Instead they insulted, oppressed and finally murdered their opposition, along with Jews and anyone else deemed unfit to live.

Rather than continue your insinuations and outright insults, Sharmuta, please tell me: precisely what about Nazi "philosophy" seems complicated to you?

(We are not talking the Federalist Papers here folks.)

348 Render  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 1:29:12am

"That's false (and of course you provide no citation). While all those you mention were totalitarian (and arguably socialist) dictators, none ever espoused a "leader principle" as Hitler understood it, let alone adopted it as policy."

R- So in this alternative historical reality of yours the three men who defined the term "cult of personality" were utterly irrelevant to the striking similar Führerprinzip that followed them by less then a decade? There is no arguing. They were all four socialist.

"The quote appears to be from a speech during Churchill's election campaign, in which he spoke out against the labor policies of Clement Attlee (the latter won). What has this to do with Hitler being a socialist?"

R - Correct, you win the Google search award. Now for bonus points why do you think Churchill would have used the Gestapo as an example of socialism in 1945?

R -I really shouldn't need a citation for what is pretty much basic history in the Western World. Perhaps you should show some citation for your bizarre theory that the nazi's were not the National Socialists they've always claimed to be.

LINKIE?,
R

349 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 1:40:37am

re: #347 snowtravel

My message, if you'd bother to hear it, is to pause and consider the real human consequences of our politics

Yeah- because nobody at LGF does that. Give me a break.

outright insults

You've jumped the shark with this one- I haven't insulted anyone- unless you're considering it an insult to national socialists to lumped in with nazis.

350 snowtravel  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 2:08:43am

re: #348 Render

R- So in this alternative historical reality of yours the three men who defined the term "cult of personality" were utterly irrelevant to the striking similar Führerprinzip that followed them by less then a decade? There is no arguing. They were all four socialist.

The point is, none ever espoused or practiced it as Hitler did, and you can't credibly claim otherwise. It's simply not a feature of socialist thought.

R - Correct, you win the Google search award. Now for bonus points why do you think Churchill would have used the Gestapo as an example of socialism in 1945?

Snarky, but it's you who have missed the point: By mentioning the Gestapo, Churchill implied an affinity with his political opponent, tacitly reminding his audience of his own success against the Nazis. (Brilliant rhetoric really.) Churchill's comment simply criticizes Attlee's socialist policies, and provides no evidence that Nazis implemented similar ones.

R -I really shouldn't need a citation for what is pretty much basic history in the Western World. Perhaps you should show some citation for your bizarre theory that the nazi's were not the National Socialists they've always claimed to be.

You can do better than that. I first studied totalitarian regimes many, many years ago, and never saw the Nazis called "socialists" in this sense—let alone "leftists"—until very recently. In fact, traditionally Nazis have always been placed on the far right (as you know, in this context I reject the silly left-right dichotomy). Hence "revisionism."

I've already given you several examples comparing and contrasting socialist and Nazi policies; you haven't addressed even one of them. For instance, do you question whether the Nazis rounded up, imprisoned and murdered socialists? Or that they encouraged private enterprise in highly un-socialistic fashion? Or that they abolished trade unions? How about some facts Render?

I'm hitting the sack and will look for your answer tomorrow. Thanks for the discussion.

351 snowtravel  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 2:14:14am

re: #349 Sharmuta

You've jumped the shark with this one- I haven't insulted anyone- unless you're considering it an insult to national socialists to lumped in with nazis.

In your #303, you responded to my post #302 with "sick." As for the rest, my position is pretty clear.

Goodnight.

352 snowtravel  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 2:15:51am

(Also, you still haven't explained the profound and rich complexity of Nazi thought. I'll look forward to seeing it tomorrow.)

353 Josephine  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 4:53:29am

re: #275 MandyManners

Christian Identity. Vile beyond belief.

That's it, Mandy. Thank you. I agree: it is totally disgusting.

354 gman  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:19:25am

re: #346 Sharmuta

I think you do evil a favor by chalking it up to simplicity.

My thoughts exactly and I don't see how anyone can deny the Nazis had their hands in all aspects of society as they went about creating the ideal "Aryan" nation.

355 kansas  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:18:11am

Action on LGF and I missed it. Crap.

356 J.S.  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 10:10:54am

I also don't think it's particularly helpful to try to shoehorn the nazis into a "left-right" political box. I think Hitler used whatever was available (with the intention of attaining political power). Thus in the early days of the nazi party, a Gregor Strasser (a socialist) who had German citizenship (as opposed to Hitler's Austrian citizenship) could spread the nazi views (make an appeal to lower-middle class Germans) beyond Bavaria (that is, Strasser spread the party ideas to northern Germany)...these were the "leftist" nazis. But Strasser was murdered during the Night of the Long Knives...(Strasser was a threat to the nazi party; Strasser resigned from the party and threatened to break the party up, because Hitler had started to court the right-wing/reactionary elements in Germany). Interestingly, the conservatives thought that they could use Hitler to attain their own ends -- and when Hitler (the "drummer") had outlived his usefulness, Hitler would have been disposed of. Of course, this did not occur -- they underestimated Hitler and Hitler reversed the plans -- Hitler used the conservatives and the reactionaries to attain power, then shafted them.

357 snowtravel  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 10:16:04am

re: #354 gman

Do you not comprehend the vocabulary here gman, or are you deliberately distorting my argument? If you bother to read my posts, I said the Nazis were totalitarian at least twice. Look it up.

As to Nazi simplicity, consider for a moment the exceedingly complex structure and philosophy of our political system with its three branches, checks and balances, and interplay of individual rights, state rights and federal powers. Do you find Nazi politics comparably complex in its philosophy or structure? I mean, how much does it take to explain a racist movement in which there's a single, unquestioned Fuhrer whose every word constitutes a true expression of the national will, and whose policies change, often murderously, at a mere whim?

358 snowtravel  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 10:22:36am

re: #356 J.S.

I also don't think it's particularly helpful to try to shoehorn the nazis into a "left-right" political box. I think Hitler used whatever was available (with the intention of attaining political power). Thus in the early days of the nazi party, a Gregor Strasser (a socialist) who had German citizenship (as opposed to Hitler's Austrian citizenship) could spread the nazi views (make an appeal to lower-middle class Germans) beyond Bavaria (that is, Strasser spread the party ideas to northern Germany)...these were the "leftist" nazis. But Strasser was murdered during the Night of the Long Knives...(Strasser was a threat to the nazi party; Strasser resigned from the party and threatened to break the party up, because Hitler had started to court the right-wing/reactionary elements in Germany). Interestingly, the conservatives thought that they could use Hitler to attain their own ends -- and when Hitler (the "drummer") had outlived his usefulness, Hitler would have been disposed of. Of course, this did not occur -- they underestimated Hitler and Hitler reversed the plans -- Hitler used the conservatives and the reactionaries to attain power, then shafted them.

Bless you, J.S.

(I'd add Roehm, the SA and the socialist factions to the Nazi body count.)

359 gman  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 12:23:40pm

re: #357 snowtravel

Do you not comprehend the vocabulary here gman, or are you deliberately distorting my argument? If you bother to read my posts, I said the Nazis were totalitarian at least twice. Look it up.

As to Nazi simplicity, consider for a moment the exceedingly complex structure and philosophy of our political system with its three branches, checks and balances, and interplay of individual rights, state rights and federal powers. Do you find Nazi politics comparably complex in its philosophy or structure? I mean, how much does it take to explain a racist movement in which there's a single, unquestioned Fuhrer whose every word constitutes a true expression of the national will, and whose policies change, often murderously, at a mere whim?

According to #335, you seem to be needing the vocabulary lesson.

re: #335 snowtravel

As to the "paradigm," can you clarify?

360 snowtravel  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 12:37:59pm

re: #359 gman

Snarky, but both backwards and beside the point. You misused the word "paradigm" and so I politely asked you to clarify your statement. You still haven't done so.

Furthermore you haven't addressed the alleged Nazi "socialism" or "simplicity" that are the main contentions here.

361 gman  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 1:53:27pm

"Paradigm" from Merriam- Websters
see definition 3

broadly : a philosophical or theoretical framework of any kind

"Totalitarianism" from Merriam- Websters
see definition 2

the political concept that the citizen should be totally subject to an absolute state authority

This definition matches this Wikipedia excerpt on totalitarianism:

The term is usually applied to Fascist Italy, Nazi Germany or hard-line communist regimes, such as Stalinist Russia, Democratic Kampuchea or North Korea.

Please also see the article titled "Communism and Fascism" under totalitarianism at Wikipedia. There is a salient quote by Hitler:

"The whole of National Socialism is based on it. Look at the workers' sports clubs, the industrial cells, the mass demonstrations, the propaganda leaflets written specifically for the comprehension of the masses; all these methods of political struggle are essentially Marxist in origin. All I had to do is take over these methods and adopt them for our purpose... National Socialism is what Marxism might have been if it could have broken its absurd and artificial ties with a democratic order".

This thread is dead but I look forward to this conversation again. I hope you're not a one- issue wonder and you show up on other threads. Anyways, I don't hold grudges so no harm intended if I came across rude earlier. I just wasn't sure if you had an agenda or not. I don't think you do.

362 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 4:27:37pm

re: #335 snowtravel

I've just read one of Goldberg's articles and found it stunningly biased: not an academic work or a history, but rather an argument against "the Left." (Goldhagen I don't know.) Just one of Goldberg's many errors is conflating Nazis with Fascists, a mistake that's repeated here.

I guess that all depends on what your definition of fascism is- do you find fascism to be a progressive movement?

re: #339 snowtravel

It's not. I've said many times that the simplistic "left-right" dichotomy is a hindrance to analyzing domestic politics, but it's utterly worthless in the international arena. Shame that it persists.

Ah- yes- I think this is the crux of the problem. I'm beginning to think you're a liberal. Progressives don't like labels unless they can be used to smear their opponents. And ironic you find it a shame to classify political ideologies, when all you've done on this thread is argue about the classification of nazism.

I'd like to elaborate, but it all depends on the answer to my first question.

363 snowtravel  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 5:18:25pm

You haven't understood a single thing I've said Sharmuta; moreover it's clear you're not interested in ideas or information that might challenge your own.

No problem: lots of people are just like that. Best wishes to you.

P.S. No offense taken, gman. See you around.

364 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 6:41:59pm

re: #363 snowtravel

Bullshit- I post at LGF where my ideas have been challenged- quite a bit, actually. Seems to me YOU'RE the one not interested in having YOUR ideas challenged. Instead of answering my question, you'd rather run away. So be it.

365 Render  Sat, Jun 14, 2008 2:16:47am

re: #350 snowtravel

“The point is, none ever espoused or practiced it as Hitler did, and you can't credibly claim otherwise. It's simply not a feature of socialist thought.”

R – Each and every one of the Socialist dictators throughout history has espoused or practiced their brand of Socialism differently – so obviously I wouldn’t bother to waste my time creating the strawman you did. What _itler practiced was National Socialism. Ultimately Soviet Socialism and Maoist Socialism each killed more people than National Socialism did and Mussolini’s Fascist Socialism was relatively benign for its first decade of existence. But they were all forms of Socialism i.e. The Left.

“Snarky, but it's you who have missed the point: By mentioning the Gestapo, Churchill implied an affinity with his political opponent, tacitly reminding his audience of his own success against the Nazis. (Brilliant rhetoric really.) Churchill's comment simply criticizes Attlee's socialist policies, and provides no evidence that Nazis implemented similar ones.”

R – The only thing I find to agree with there is the “Brilliant rhetoric” comment. I don’t see you disagreeing that Winston used the Gestapo as an example of Socialism – in 1945. I find it difficult to conceive of any British subject in 1945 needing to be reminded of Winston Churchill’s success against the nazis. Winston Churchill was criticizing all Socialism in that paragraph by pointing out that it inevitably leads to a police state tyranny. No parsing, no nuance. The old Bulldog himself puts it right in your face.

WC – “Socialism is inseparably interwoven with totalitarianism and the object worship of the state.”

WC – “No socialist system can be established without a political police. They would have to fall back on some form of Gestapo, no doubt very humanely directed in the first instance.”

R – And he does so using the National Socialists own secret police, the Gestapo, as an example of the inevitable consequences of Socialism. History since 1945 and recent events show us that in spite of losing to Atlee, Winston wasn’t just correct, he was prophetic.

“You can do better than that. I first studied totalitarian regimes many, many years ago, and never saw the Nazis called "socialists" in this sense—let alone "leftists"—until very recently. In fact, traditionally Nazis have always been placed on the far right (as you know, in this context I reject the silly left-right dichotomy). Hence "revisionism."

R – Depending on what, where, and when you did this studying. I don’t see anybody else disagreeing with me on this subject. The Third Reich was unquestionably National Socialist for the entire duration of its existence. The tradition you speak of didn’t begin until the mid 1950’s. All of the contemporary history of the 1920’s – 1940’s era, all of the historians, all of the biographers, all of the politicians of the era spoke of the nazis as National Socialists. Spend the next day or two re-reading William L. Shirer’s “Rise and Fall of the Third Reich” and Basil Liddell-Harts “History of the Second World War.” Lemme know when you find either of those historians referring to the National Socialists as extreme right.

VOLLEY
FIRE,
R

366 Render  Sat, Jun 14, 2008 2:17:40am

re: #350 snowtravel

“I've already given you several examples comparing and contrasting socialist and Nazi policies; you haven't addressed even one of them. For instance, do you question whether the Nazis rounded up, imprisoned and murdered socialists? Or that they encouraged private enterprise in highly un-socialistic fashion? Or that they abolished trade unions? How about some facts Render?”

R - You gave me examples comparing different versions of Socialism. I would have thought that was rather self-addressing. Do I wtf?...and you dare to mention my being snarky? What’s that, the 7th or 8th time you’ve accused me of revisionism? I think I’m entitled to however much snarkiness I want at this point.

R - Of fucking course I don’t deny the horrors of the Holocaust you insufferable nitwit. I have no family tree because of it. Do you deny that the Soviet Socialists and the Maoist Socialists rounded up other Socialists, imprisoned them and murdered them – in mass numbers? There are very few Socialist states remaining that do not encourage some form of private enterprise or another. I don’t think the Maoists even knew what a trade union was, but the Cominterin always saw the trade unions as a necessary evil, a tainted stepping stone from the “evils” of Capitalism, and one to be removed sooner, if not later. Arguing against that point is a small part of why Trotsky was expelled from the party.

[Link: www.marx2mao.com...]

R – Why there’s Lenin himself, talking about Trotsky’s Mistake and about abolishing the trade unions, albeit in the time of his grandchildren, but nonetheless. I seem to recall the Lenin’s Soviet grandchildren having trade union issues as well – Solidarity ring a bell?

R- Never mind the all too obvious name, the National Socialists qualify as Socialists just on body count alone. Which brings us back to Winston Churchill circa 1945, why are you disagreeing with Winston Churchill when he uses the Gestapo as an example of the horrors of Socialism?

DING,
R

367 Render  Sat, Jun 14, 2008 2:32:28am

re: #356 J.S.

It seems to me that you just put _itler and the National Socialist party squarely on the left side of the box. If they had already been on the right, they would hardly have had to make those deals with either the extreme right or with the army.

Gregor Strasser, and Ernst Roehm were hardly the only "Socialists" among the National Socialists.

ahem.

Gregor Strasser had been a right-wing Friekorp member and his brother Otto was a Red during the Kapp Putsch. Gregor became a leftist the day he joined the SA.

ANYBODY
ELSE?,
R

368 Lady Redhawk[deleted]  Sat, Jun 14, 2008 8:14:19am
369 snowtravel  Sat, Jun 14, 2008 10:04:03am

re: #364 Sharmuta

Bullshit- I post at LGF where my ideas have been challenged- quite a bit, actually. Seems to me YOU'RE the one not interested in having YOUR ideas challenged. Instead of answering my question, you'd rather run away. So be it.

All you've contributed here Sharmuta are insinuations and insults. In truth, not only do you have no clue about my politics, you've no clue of your own.

I won't run, but the door swings both ways: I've candidly posted my ideas and information about Nazism, a political philosophy that's evil in myriad ways but—as J.S. cogently states—hardly capable of neatly fitting into your contrived and frankly stupid bipolar world-view.

Give me some information to consider and I'll respond as best I can. Otherwise, go pound sand.

370 snowtravel  Sat, Jun 14, 2008 10:50:42am

re: #365 Render

"Each and every one of the Socialist dictators throughout history has espoused or practiced their brand of Socialism differently."

That's a meaningless truism, like saying "we're all different." In fact, many socialist systems share features in common; analyzing them is useful, interesting and (possibly) predictive. The Nazis, for their part, were unique. It's both ignorant and contrary to your own argument to classify them all together on the left.

Regarding Churchill, you're just compounding a failed argument. His election-time rhetoric proves nothing about Hitler's policies vis a vis Lenin's, or Mao's, or Stalin's or anyone else's. Comparing these systems is the essence of this argument, and Churchill clearly didn't do that in the speeches you cited.

As to the Holocaust, I've never suggested that you denied its horrors. Rather, I've suggested the opposite: that the racism that produced it is unique and distinctly non-socialist. Of course this has never been about Shoah, or your own family history or even mine, but while we're on the subject let's face it: you don't know a thing about whose family suffered more under Nazism. That's all beside the point. The question is, are Nazis—a term almost universally used to refer to Nazis under Hitler—socialists or not?

Render, if you can't name a single socialist feature of the "National Socialists" under Hitler other than the name, I'd say that your argument could use a bit more substance. And if the name if all you've got, then demonstrably you're a dupe to half-century old Nazi deception.

Finally, regarding the purges: I've never suggested that Strasser or Roehm died alone. Review my posts and you'll see that in specifically citing "SA and socialist factions," I said exactly the opposite. The revolutionary SA numbered in the many millions when it swept Hitler into power; after the purges, the SA ceased to be a factor and its numbers dwindled through attrition and military inscription into the Reichswehr.

No one knows how many socialist Nazi leaders and others died in the "Night of the long Knives," but the outcome—consolidating Hitler's unquestioned power and silencing all talk of socialist revolution—is abundantly clear in the historical record. To label as "socialists" Hitler and those who murdered and suppressed the Nazi socialists is, once again, both ignorant and self-contradictory.

But hey, what do I know. I'm just a nitwit.

371 DeathtotheSwiss  Sat, Jun 14, 2008 6:49:04pm

re: #370 snowtravel

"Each and every one of the Socialist dictators throughout history has espoused or practiced their brand of Socialism differently."

That's a meaningless truism, like saying "we're all different." In fact, many socialist systems share features in common; analyzing them is useful, interesting and (possibly) predictive. The Nazis, for their part, were unique. It's both ignorant and contrary to your own argument to classify them all together on the left.

Regarding Churchill, you're just compounding a failed argument. His election-time rhetoric proves nothing about Hitler's policies vis a vis Lenin's, or Mao's, or Stalin's or anyone else's. Comparing these systems is the essence of this argument, and Churchill clearly didn't do that in the speeches you cited.

As to the Holocaust, I've never suggested that you denied its horrors. Rather, I've suggested the opposite: that the racism that produced it is unique and distinctly non-socialist. Of course this has never been about Shoah, or your own family history or even mine, but while we're on the subject let's face it: you don't know a thing about whose family suffered more under Nazism. That's all beside the point. The question is, are Nazis—a term almost universally used to refer to Nazis under Hitler—socialists or not?

Render, if you can't name a single socialist feature of the "National Socialists" under Hitler other than the name, I'd say that your argument could use a bit more substance. And if the name if all you've got, then demonstrably you're a dupe to half-century old Nazi deception.

Finally, regarding the purges: I've never suggested that Strasser or Roehm died alone. Review my posts and you'll see that in specifically citing "SA and socialist factions," I said exactly the opposite. The revolutionary SA numbered in the many millions when it swept Hitler into power; after the purges, the SA ceased to be a factor and its numbers dwindled through attrition and military inscription into the Reichswehr.

No one knows how many socialist Nazi leaders and others died in the "Night of the long Knives," but the outcome—consolidating Hitler's unquestioned power and silencing all talk of socialist revolution—is abundantly clear in the historical record. To label as "socialists" Hitler and those who murdered and suppressed the Nazi socialists is, once again, both ignorant and self-contradictory.

But hey, what do I know. I'm just a nitwit.

You're arguing pretty passionately about this...for some reason.

372 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 15, 2008 7:46:11am

What is fascism? mussolini stated:

Anti-individualistic, the Fascist conception of life stresses the importance of the State and accepts the individual only in so far as his interests coincide with those of the State, which stands for the conscience and the universal, will of man as a historic entity. It is opposed to classical liberalism which arose as a reaction to absolutism and exhausted its historical function when the State became the expression of the conscience and will of the people. Liberalism denied the State in the name of the individual; Fascism reasserts the rights of the State as expressing the real essence of the individual. And if liberty is to he [sic] the attribute of living men and not of abstract dummies invented by individualistic liberalism, then Fascism stands for liberty, and for the only liberty worth having, the liberty of the State and of the individual within the State. The Fascist conception of the State is all embracing; outside of it no human or spiritual values can exist, much less have value. Thus understood, Fascism, is totalitarian, and the Fascist State - a synthesis and a unit inclusive of all values - interprets, develops, and potentates the whole life of a people.

[Emphasis added].

No one's going to argue the nazis weren't racist. Clearly they were. However, if viewed with a fascist perspective, it's quite clear that nazism was a form of fascism in that hitler viewed only Germans as people worth having in the state, and that the nazis sought to impose their ideals on the German people through education, health care, eugenics, and genocide. The needs of the state trump the needs of the individual under fascism. Surely the needs of nazi Germany trumped the rights of individual Germans- hence the execution of political opponents and the scapegoating of the Jews as the cancer on the German body politic. Need more?

A nation, as expressed in the State, is a living, ethical entity only in so far as it is progressive. Inactivity is death. Therefore the State is not only Authority which governs and confers legal form and spiritual value on individual wills, but it is also Power which makes its will felt and respected beyond its own frontiers, thus affording practical proof of the universal character of the decisions necessary to ensure its development. This implies organization and expansion, potential if not actual.

[Emphasis added].

Indeed- the nazis sure made their power felt both inside and outside Germany. It surely conferred "legal form and spiritual value on individual wills" with Jews and other undesirables having zero value, and Germans having more value while using power to make it's will felt and respected. Still need more?

Fascism, in short, is not only a law-giver and a founder of institutions, but an educator and a promoter of spiritual life. It aims at refashioning not only the forms of life but their content - man, his character, and his faith. To achieve this propose it enforces discipline and uses authority, entering into the soul and ruling with undisputed sway. Therefore it has chosen as its emblem the Lictor’s rods, the symbol of unity, strength, and justice.

[Emphasis added].

Are you going to deny the nazis tried to "refashion" the German form of life?

Furthermore, as hitler stated:

We have endeavored to depart from the external, the superficial, endeavored to forget social origin, class, profession, fortune, education, capital and everything that separates men, in order to reach that which binds them together.

[Emphasis added].

Hmm- sounds kind of fascist- maybe even socialist. Note the use of "binds", almost as if he were discussing a fascist symbol...like a bundle.

373 MajorPribluda  Sun, Jun 15, 2008 8:08:40am

The Nazi party was founded as the National Socialist German Workers' Party, long before the paper-hanging corporal became, er, aroused by it.
re: #370 snowtravel

No one knows how many socialist Nazi leaders and others died in the "Night of the long Knives," but the outcome—consolidating Hitler's unquestioned power and silencing all talk of socialist revolution—is abundantly clear in the historical record. To label as "socialists" Hitler and those who murdered and suppressed the Nazi socialists is, once again, both ignorant and self-contradictory.

But hey, what do I know. I'm just a nitwit.

First, nobody cares how many socialist Nazi leaders died that night. Good, good, good and good.
Second, those dutiful socialist leaders were killed most likely because, despite their avowed homosexuality, which in the early days of the party was tolerated if sufficiently "private" (as Hitler himself defended Roehm), they were his closest rivals. He consolidated his power this way--it was not the opening of a front against other socialists, but the closing of it.
Third, as "DeathToTheSwiss" said:

You're arguing pretty passionately about this...for some reason.
374 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 15, 2008 12:40:29pm

Oh- well I can tell by the dings that mussolini must not be an authority on fascism.

375 snowtravel  Sun, Jun 15, 2008 1:30:05pm

re: #372 Sharmuta

Sharmuta, you can’t credibly cite Mussolini for Nazi policy: It would be more reasonable to quote Obama to discover McCain or Trotsky to discover Lenin (at least they’re in the same country). More pointedly, do you fail to perceive the different outcomes for mid-century Italy and Germany? If not, then there’s no point in pondering why. Finally, as I’ve said before it’s essential to distinguish propaganda from policy: the former was the very essence of Nazi success. You still haven’t addressed the latter, though I’ve repeatedly cited fanatical racism, trade unions, property ownership, treatment of socialists, and so. Your adherence to superficial slogans makes you just another modern dupe to Nazi lies. It’s unspeakably sad and ironic.

re: #373 MajorPribluda

MajorPribluda: First, if you don’t care about the people who died on Hitler’s path to absolute power, then you must not care about the result. Plainly you and I are cut from different cloth. I care deeply because those murders marked such an important inflection point in Germany’s history: but for these events, tens of millions might have been spared untold agony.

Second, we certainly agree that Hitler murdered his former allies in service to his goals. But you’ve missed entirely the salient point: namely, along with the deaths and suppression of German socialism’s adherents, the final abolition of their policies from the Nazi agenda.

Third, my thanks to you and Deathtotheswiss for the compliment: I’m passionate about truth and memory, and very much opposed to forgetfulness and lies. In this regard, perhaps you’ve heard Santayana’s oft-quoted wisdom. Best heed it.

376 konservo  Sun, Jun 15, 2008 1:41:11pm

re: #370 snowtravel

The Nazis were nationalist socialist, and they can be described as what Lenin calls the Bolsheviks' "twin brothers, the social-chauvinists" (State and Revolution, 14). The socialism of Marxism and Leninism didn't see modern nations as legitimate, under those ideologies the state is a product of class struggle in which a ruling elite oppress the proletariat. Accordingly, the socialist revolution is when "the proletariat seizes state power, and then transforms the means of production into state property" (Engles, The Origin of the Family, Private Property, and the State).

The Nazis gave a more specific name to the elite ruling class, namely, the Jews, and they did what socialist doctrine told them had to be done. They had to "free themselves" from their oppressors (i.e. the Jews) who had been exploiting them. Of course, no such exploitation by a ruling elite of Jews was occurring, this was anti-Semitic propaganda. However, it doesn't negate the fact that the Nazis following socialist guidelines.

There's more, too. Socialists believe that one can plan an economy and a society with scientific precision, that's exactly what the NAZIs thought too.

Also, socialism is totalitarian (I think you were confused about that in a comment above, iirc)

Plus, trade unions are superfluous after a socialist revolution because the proletariat would be supposed to control the means of production anyway.

The fact is no such socialist ideal has ever succeeded and thus whenever socialist-sympathizers try to defend socialism they can claim that such-and-such a regime was not socialist because it's absurd to think that the proletariat controlled production under so-and-so. This is true because true socialism is impossible.

I agree that Goldberg shouldn't be considered an authoritative source. Read Hayek.

377 Syrah  Sun, Jun 15, 2008 1:43:07pm

There are some people who argue that Stalin was not a socialist too.

Just as ludicrous.

378 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 15, 2008 1:51:15pm

re: #375 snowtravel

you can’t credibly cite Mussolini for Nazi policy

That's not what I was trying to do, but thanks for closing your mind to my point.

379 snowtravel  Sun, Jun 15, 2008 4:23:15pm

re: #376 konservo

The Nazis were nationalist socialist, and they can be described as what Lenin calls the Bolsheviks' "twin brothers, the social-chauvinists" (State and Revolution, 14).
[snip]

Lenin’s work predated Hitler by many years. As I’ve previously observed, Hitler confiscated Jewish property, but otherwise fostered private enterprise as long as it served Nazi goals. However, if the point is to say that pre-Hitler Nazis were socialists, of course I agree.

The Nazis gave a more specific name to the elite ruling class, namely, the Jews, and they did what socialist doctrine told them had to be done.
[snip]

No. Classes aren’t races: the former is an economic distinction, the latter (supposedly) genetic. What’s unique in Nazism is its intense and unwavering conviction regarding racial conflict at its core. Hitler both espoused and practiced it, right to the end. There’s simply nothing else like it in history, and it’s just essential. To forget (or to distort) this crucial point is to miss what produced the Holocaust.

There's more, too. Socialists believe that one can plan an economy and a society with scientific precision, that's exactly what the NAZIs thought too.

I’d certainly agree that both socialists and Nazis approached their politics from a classic “materialist” perspective. However, that someone thinks or espouses his theory is “scientific” doesn’t make it so. (I have yet to hear of a 20th century ideology whose proponents claimed was “unscientific.”) To say that "science" backs one’s policy proposal is merely everyday political marketing. Among others, Al Gore comes to mind...

Also, socialism is totalitarian (I think you were confused about that in a comment above, iirc)

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. There are many democratic societies that have implemented socialist policies; ours among them, proving that socialism doesn’t always imply totalitarian control. Furthermore the reverse isn’t always true either: see, for example, Tolman’s Totalitarian Democracies.

Plus, trade unions are superfluous after a socialist revolution because the proletariat would be supposed to control the means of production anyway.

True in theory. However, socialists view trade unions as manifestations of proletarian power and therefore support them, e.g. Fascist Italy. In contrast, Nazis abolished them. Apart from the Nazis, do you know of any “socialist” systems that did likewise?

The fact is no such socialist ideal has ever succeeded and thus whenever socialist-sympathizers try to defend socialism they can claim that such-and-such a regime was not socialist because it's absurd to think that the proletariat controlled production under so-and-so. This is true because true socialism is impossible.

It’s a reasonable observation, and it's important to reflect upon its implications: from a purely economic perspective, pre-WWII Nazi Germany succeeded (as I’ve said, at a colossal and unjustifiable human cost). And it didn’t ultimately fail because of its economics; rather, it committed suicide. But if Nazism were socialist, it couldn’t and shouldn’t have worked at all. In other words, if Nazism succeeded and socialist systems never can, why the difference? If you accept the premise, the logical conclusion necessarily follows.

OT, it’s interesting to consider what would have happened if Hitler hadn’t smashed Germany’s thriving economy against the industrial power of the rest of the western World. WWII might not have happened (at least as we know it), but Nazi Germany might have grown and prospered. Scary.

I agree that Goldberg shouldn't be considered an authoritative source. Read Hayek.

Thanks, I will look for Hayak. Appreciate the thoughtful post.

380 snowtravel  Sun, Jun 15, 2008 4:27:11pm

re: #378 Sharmuta

That's not what I was trying to do, but thanks for closing your mind to my point.

Apparently we agree that Mussolini and Hitler don't equate. Please state what you are trying to do.

381 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 16, 2008 2:21:15am

re: #380 snowtravel

Please state what you are trying to do.

Apparently, I'm talking to a brick wall.


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