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Science: Bacterial Evolution Observed in Laboratory

Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 3:42:47 pm PDT

In an experiment that has been underway for 20 years at Michigan State University, biologist Richard Lenski has actually observed evolution at work in E. Coli bacteria.

A major evolutionary innovation has unfurled right in front of researchers’ eyes. It’s the first time evolution has been caught in the act of making such a rare and complex new trait.

And because the species in question is a bacterium, scientists have been able to replay history to show how this evolutionary novelty grew from the accumulation of unpredictable, chance events.

Twenty years ago, evolutionary biologist Richard Lenski of Michigan State University in East Lansing, US, took a single Escherichia coli bacterium and used its descendants to found 12 laboratory populations. The 12 have been growing ever since, gradually accumulating mutations and evolving for more than 44,000 generations, while Lenski watches what happens.

Mostly, the patterns Lenski saw were similar in each separate population. All 12 evolved larger cells, for example, as well as faster growth rates on the glucose they were fed, and lower peak population densities.

But sometime around the 31,500th generation, something dramatic happened in just one of the populations – the bacteria suddenly acquired the ability to metabolise citrate, a second nutrient in their culture medium that E. coli normally cannot use.

Indeed, the inability to use citrate is one of the traits by which bacteriologists distinguish E. coli from other species. The citrate-using mutants increased in population size and diversity.

“It’s the most profound change we have seen during the experiment. This was clearly something quite different for them, and it’s outside what was normally considered the bounds of E. coli as a species, which makes it especially interesting,” says Lenski.

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1750 comments

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1 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:44:48pm

This again?

bee in someones bonnet?

2 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:45:19pm
3 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:45:34pm
it’s outside what was normally considered the bounds of E. coli as a species, which makes it especially interesting

you should get out more often

4 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:45:53pm

re: #1 WrathofG-d

This again?

bee in someones bonnet?

Uh no. It's an article on a scientific subject that I happen to be interested in.

5 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:46:01pm
The citrate-using mutants increased in population size and diversity.

change !

6 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:46:33pm

it stands to reason that in 32,500 generations, humans will loose the need for toes.

7 GregInSeattle  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:46:40pm

Yes, God uses evolution.

8 frodolives  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:46:55pm

a topic of interest, shall we say.

mutants are not new, yes exciting to see it happen, but doesn't really change the discussion. ie, it doesn't disprove ID

9 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:46:58pm
10 Ash_  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:47:28pm

Bugs are getting better and better. The bugs that can create crude oil are pretty awesome.

11 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:47:36pm

re: #4 Charles

As I have always said....its your site....you can do with it what you want.

I do fear however that you might chase off some of your wonderful Creationist "lizardoids" however, as these types of threads seem to be a bit aggressive against them.

Just looking out for a site I enjoy.

12 godfrey  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:47:37pm

Cool.

13 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:47:39pm

re: #8 frodolives

a topic of interest, shall we say.

mutants are not new, yes exciting to see it happen, but doesn't really change the discussion. ie, it doesn't disprove ID


but aren't random mutations are the heart of the discussion ?

14 pat  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:47:42pm

Now if only liberals could evolve.

15 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:47:48pm

re: #2 buzzsawmonkey

But because they have not yet evolved exoskeletons, the ID crowd will reject these findings.

I accept the findings and wonder where the human race will be in 31,000 generations.

16 opnion  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:47:51pm

re: #6 Eowyn2

it stands to reason that in 32,500 generations, humans will loose the need for toes.


Wait a minute! How do you think that we will count then we finish with our fingers?

17 BignJames  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:47:55pm

re: #6 Eowyn2

it stands to reason that in 32,500 generations, humans will loose the need for toes.


Not my little piggies!?! Say it ain't so!

18 dave fitz  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:48:07pm

*nod@Wrath*
I was going to say, I really don't think the "intelligent design vs. evolution vs. basically everybody" argument does any good for anyone.

I'll care a lot more about the cranks on either side when they're actually talking someone out of money or planting bombs in biolabs. In the meantime, it's refereeing a skunk fight to bring it up.

Dave

19 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:49:06pm
20 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:49:12pm

re: #8 frodolives

a topic of interest, shall we say.

mutants are not new, yes exciting to see it happen, but doesn't really change the discussion. ie, it doesn't disprove ID

You cannot disprove ID, because it's not falsifiable. This, by the way, also shows that it is not science.

21 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:49:31pm

re: #9 buzzsawmonkey

No mean feet, that.


less stinky feet
eliminates sock lint and sweat between the toes

22 frodolives  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:49:43pm

re: #13 Shug

but aren't random mutations are the heart of the discussion ?

ah, but how do you know it's random?

23 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:50:27pm

re: #22 frodolives

How do I know something is random ?

because it's random

24 opnion  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:51:46pm

re: #19 buzzsawmonkey

In the Year 2525

BTW, one of the worst songs ever.


Zager & Evans . It is profoundly bad.
It may be eclipsed by "Reach out in the Darkness" by Friend & Lover, about the same time. Truly painful.

25 BignJames  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:51:46pm

re: #23 Shug


random pattern

26 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:52:13pm

re: #11 WrathofG-d

As I have always said....its your site....you can do with it what you want.

I do fear however that you might chase off some of your wonderful Creationist "lizardoids" however, as these types of threads seem to be a bit aggressive against them.

Just looking out for a site I enjoy.

I don't know why it should chase anyone off if I link to articles about valid scientific experiments.

27 JKWEST  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:53:13pm

re: #7 GregInSeattle

Yes, God uses evolution.

Amazing innit?

28 Mich-again  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:53:18pm

This isn't just a random mutation, but evolution because the new bacteria is better equipped to survive than the original one. Pretty cool that it all happened in a lab. It would be interesting to see if the same thing happens to the other 11 sets or if something totally different happens.

29 Anthony (Los Angeles)  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:53:43pm
A major evolutionary innovation has unfurled right in front of researchers’ eyes.

But how does this discussion help Michelle Obama's daughters?

30 ryannon  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:53:49pm

Change We Can Believe In.

31 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:54:10pm

re: #20 Charles

You cannot disprove ID, because it's not falsifiable. This, by the way, also shows that it is not science.

But the same goes for evolution. We can only go so far to prove it and so far to disprove it.

I am a creationist, I do not think that ID should be taught in the classrooms but I think that evolution should be taught as a theory rather than a proven scientific truth. I like the exactness of math and physics.

32 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:54:21pm

re: #26 Charles

Non computer people could say the same thing about your code threads. they don't interest me, but really I just don't understand it. Likewise I don't usually get into these ID discussions. same reason

the best thing about your forum is the wide variety of topics and discussions occurring simultaneously.

I don't understand how somebody can claim that any particular topic(s) is going to drive people away.

SCIENCE!

/dolby out

33 Buster Bunny  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:54:24pm

And if you look deep in the bacterial mix you can see relatives of Ben Stein!

/Bacterium Bunny

34 godfrey  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:54:58pm

Reza is offended.

35 Wookieelips  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:55:14pm

E. coli smells like dirty wet dog.

36 Mich-again  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:55:29pm

These aren't the same bacteria I knew.

37 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:55:30pm

re: #31 Eowyn2

But the same goes for evolution. We can only go so far to prove it and so far to disprove it.

I am a creationist, I do not think that ID should be taught in the classrooms but I think that evolution should be taught as a theory rather than a proven scientific truth. I like the exactness of math and physics.

No, it's not even remotely comparable, sorry. There are many parts to the theory of evolution that are falsifiable; people have been trying to do it for many years. And the theory has only survived and gotten stronger.

Like these bacteria.

38 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:55:35pm

re: #16 opnion

Wait a minute! How do you think that we will count then we finish with our fingers?


hair folicles?

39 calvin coolidge  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:55:54pm

Wake me up when the Spartans actually win a football game against Meeechigan.

40 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:56:10pm

re: #39 calvin coolidge

Wake me up when the Spartans actually win a football game against Meeechigan.

OK Mr van Winkle

41 Thanos  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:56:49pm

The bacteria can't have my OJ! Not now, not ever!

:)

This is highly interesting, thanks.

42 Pshawalaw  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:57:06pm

My interest will really peak when they figure out how evolution led to consciousness.

43 Buster Bunny  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:57:20pm

I know that i've evolved from somewhere.

Stick a monkey in an armchair, give him a remote control and some peanuts or chips and ask him to pick the channel.

Who knows? you may find the monkey has better taste in TV viewing than any spouse, partner or extra being you've ever met !

/Broadband Bunny

44 frodolives  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:57:22pm

re: #23 Shug

But you don't know all the factors involved. That's why the scientist is going back to see what "laid the groundwork" for the later mutation

The replays showed that even when he looked at trillions of cells, only the original population re-evolved Cit+ – and only when he started the replay from generation 20,000 or greater. Something, he concluded, must have happened around generation 20,000 that laid the groundwork for Cit+ to later evolve.
Lenski and his colleagues are now working to identify just what that earlier change was, and how it made the Cit+ mutation possible more than 10,000 generations later.

45 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:57:48pm

re: #26 Charles

its the inevitable "anyone that belives in G-d, or anything other than straight evolution from monkeys is a myth loving idiot, with not enough brain power to not believe in cloud people" comments that would upset people.

Overall my 2c was stated, and concern expressed. I appologize for repeating myself but it is your site and you should, and will do what you would like.

I know what I know and believe what I believe, and luckily for me it doesn't require others to agree.

46 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:58:05pm

re: #32 Shug

Non computer people could say the same thing about your code threads. they don't interest me, but really I just don't understand it. Likewise I don't usually get into these ID discussions. same reason

the best thing about your forum is the wide variety of topics and discussions occurring simultaneously.

I don't understand how somebody can claim that any particular topic(s) is going to drive people away.

SCIENCE!
/dolby out

I will have to be deleted by the infamous stinky before I will allow myself to be driven off because of a topic. Unless of course, someone is really really mean, and makes me really really sad, and like, hurts my feelings.

47 frodolives  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:58:13pm

re: #20 Charles

how do you figure it shows that it's not science?

48 Antilles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:58:19pm

Bravo Charles!

Keep up the good fight!

49 bellamags  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:58:27pm

re: #35 Wookieelips

Does it really? and also, how did you find out?

50 frodolives  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:59:13pm

re: #44 frodolives

oops. sorry about the bold.

51 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:59:35pm

re: #47 frodolives

how do you figure it shows that it's not science?

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

52 Pshawalaw  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:59:39pm

When it comes to e coli, I don't believe it until /www.med.umich.edu/microbio/bio/mobley.htm">Ha rry says it is so.

53 Dar ul Harb  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:59:41pm

Here's the abstract from Proceedings Of The National Academy of Sciences.

54 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:59:57pm

re: #44 frodolives

I've always subscribed to the Chariots of the Gods scenario, combined with evolution and the existence of a higher power.

In short, I enjoy looking at a tree and a sunset. I don't worry so much about who made the tree, or who made the eyeball that allows me to see the sunset. I just enjoy it

It's all so amazing that I think it's like that Box guy in Star Trek.

If you look at it you will go insane.

So I don't but I don't bother about people that want to know or not know but have faith.

55 Dar ul Harb  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:01:45pm

re: #35 Wookieelips

E. coli smells like dirty wet dog.

Smells like poo.

Not to be confused with Obama's national security adviser.

56 Buster Bunny  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:01:49pm

Charles

I think the clincher to the whole deal is an experiment the Russians did a while back with foxes. They stuck foxes in cages and tried to domesticate them. After about 16-20 generations .. the foxes were 'pseudo' domestic. But the remarkable thing was .. after that .. they started to change their COATS from the pure black they had been before.

Google it .. it was about 8 years ago since i heard the story. But its well worth finding out more about. Its basically along the same lines.

/Breeder Bunny

57 Pshawalaw  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:02:01pm

Harry

Try this link thing again, I will.

58 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:02:10pm
59 see bs  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:02:40pm

Did one of the bacteria develop the ability to turn into ice, shoot lasers from its eyes, have psychic abilities, have wings, have "beast" like hands or have a mentor that was confined to a wheel chair?

Maybe control magnetism or become immovable?

Pop 3 claws from its hands? Control the weather? Have a steel skin? Teleport?

60 Agahnim  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:03:13pm

I remember when we worked with plasmids in lab to give E. Coli the glow in the dark properties of jellyfish. That was pretty freakin' sweet.

61 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:03:17pm

re: #4 Charles

Uh no. It's an article on a scientific subject that I happen to be interested in.

Ah Ha.

62 Cicero05  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:03:30pm

I use citrate myself. So what's the big deal?

63 Buster Bunny  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:04:31pm

re: #59 see bs

Did one of the bacteria develop the ability to turn into ice, shoot lasers from its eyes, have psychic abilities, have wings, have "beast" like hands or have a mentor that was confined to a wheel chair?

Maybe control magnetism or become immovable?

Pop 3 claws from its hands? Control the weather? Have a steel skin? Teleport?

Sure they did. I saw a movie from the 50s where all that happened.

And it was REAL too .. i tells ya.

/B & W Bunny

64 brickthruplateglasswindow  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:04:32pm

Replicate and repeat, then it's scientific.

65 JohnH  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:05:09pm

I do not know a single creationist who would have any problems with what occurred.

I will observe that if it took 31,500 generations for what appears to be one change to occur in a protected environment, extrapolating this to humans and assuming a generation averages 20 years, this one change would take 630,000 years.

'Jes sayin'......

66 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:05:17pm

re: #37 Charles

No, it's not even remotely comparable, sorry. There are many parts to the theory of evolution that are falsifiable; people have been trying to do it for many years. And the theory has only survived and gotten stronger.

Like these bacteria.

I firmly believe that man has evolved. Else we would still be worshipping black moon rocks ... oh wait we are. well some humans are. Currently public schools are not teaching that evolution is a theory that has had some parts proven. We all know that animals adapt to diffent conditions. Rather than teach kids to search out questions and answers about evolution, they teach kids that there are no questions left unanswered. I firmly object to that.

I do not, however, object discussing super germs or super bacteria.

67 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:05:26pm
68 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:05:41pm
69 WhiteRasta  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:06:57pm

re: #11 WrathofG-d

It's interesting to have an intelligent debate.........

70 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:07:04pm

re: #44 frodolives

But you don't know all the factors involved. That's why the scientist is going back to see what "laid the groundwork" for the later mutation

The replays showed that even when he looked at trillions of cells, only the original population re-evolved Cit+ – and only when he started the replay from generation 20,000 or greater. Something, he concluded, must have happened around generation 20,000 that laid the groundwork for Cit+ to later evolve.
Lenski and his colleagues are now working to identify just what that earlier change was, and how it made the Cit+ mutation possible more than 10,000 generations later.

I think it was the dogs and cats living together.

71 Dar ul Harb  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:07:18pm

This just in:
E. coli more evolved than Islamic terrorists

Biofilm at 11.

72 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:07:31pm
73 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:07:35pm

re: #66 Eowyn2

Rather than teach kids to search out questions and answers about evolution, they teach kids that there are no questions left unanswered. I firmly object to that.

You're going to have to prove that, because it's certainly not what I was taught in science class.

74 Cicero05  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:08:08pm

re: #65 JohnH

I do not know a single creationist who would have any problems with what occurred.

<blockquote>I will observe that if it took 31,500 generations for what appears to be one change to occur in a protected environment, extrapolating this to humans and assuming a generation averages 20 years, this one change would take 630,000 years.</blockquote>

'Jes sayin'......

Your logic is sooo misguided I hardly know where to start.

75 Agahnim  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:08:18pm

I'm really, really interested in seeing the different pathways that allowed this to occur, and the implications of the mutation in the E. Coli strain compared to other features. Very interesting. I love science.

76 Buster Bunny  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:08:26pm

re: #65 JohnH

I do not know a single creationist who would have any problems with what occurred.

I will observe that if it took 31,500 generations for what appears to be one change to occur in a protected environment, extrapolating this to humans and assuming a generation averages 20 years, this one change would take 630,000 years.

'Jes sayin'......

Actually change will take place in a relevant stream within a single generation if the circumstances are far removed from the known previous parameters.

Think of those lizards in Crete who changed and adapted within 20 years. All that was necessary there is a total upheaval of their known environment.

/Blatent Bunny

77 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:09:01pm
78 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:09:10pm

re: #75 Agahnim

I'm really, really interested in seeing the different pathways that allowed this to occur, and the implications of the mutation in the E. Coli strain compared to other features. Very interesting. I love science.

Really? Then why are you dinging down all the pro-evolution comments?

79 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:09:15pm

Alright.

It is E. Coli. It is evolution as opposed to intelligent design.

Only one comment is appropriate: Holy Shit.

80 Cicero05  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:10:03pm

re: #77 ploome hineni

you a germ?

I've been called worse.

81 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:11:03pm

re: #56 Buster Bunny

Charles

I think the clincher to the whole deal is an experiment the Russians did a while back with foxes. They stuck foxes in cages and tried to domesticate them. After about 16-20 generations .. the foxes were 'pseudo' domestic. But the remarkable thing was .. after that .. they started to change their COATS from the pure black they had been before.

Google it .. it was about 8 years ago since i heard the story. But its well worth finding out more about. Its basically along the same lines.

/Breeder Bunny


could it have been a result of inbreeding?

82 Agahnim  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:11:03pm

re: #73 Charles

You're going to have to prove that, because it's certainly not what I was taught in science class.

That's actually how I was taught in my Zoology class the first day. Everything had been proven, it was a fact, and if anyone had any questions about it they could leave the class. He was a great teacher though, and actually believed in some latent psychic abilities.

I miss him. =(

83 vapig  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:11:20pm

Sorry - not as exciting to me as the oil pooping bugs.....

84 Pyroskank  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:11:24pm

This whole idea of teaching "ID" in schools seems so ridiculous to me. It's all supposition and honestly has NOTHING to do with the theory of evolution. Science does not, and never has, claimed to explain the philosophical reasons for WHY the world behaves as it does. It simply tries to describe, in the most accurate way possible, HOW it happens. Religion supplies the "why" and rarely provides the "how".

As a brief example, the bible tells us that G-d created light. He said "let there be light" and there was light. How? The bible doesn't say. And honestly, it doesn't matter in a religious sense. It just happened.

The bible tells us why G-d created humans. Darwinism tells us how human beings came to be as they are today. These concepts cannot, by definition, contradict one another. This is why any idea like "ID" that attempts to explain "why" rather than "how" is not science, and has no place in a public classroom.

What is so hard to understand about this?

85 right wing zephyr  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:11:39pm

re: #69 WhiteRasta

It's interesting to have an intelligent debate.........

Yeah. Let me know when you see one.

86 schneidballs  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:11:48pm

My question would be, did the mutation result from an increase of DNA information (required for evolution) or a re-shuffling of what was already there, or removing information a that was there previously.

If it was an actual increase in DNA information, then I would be inclined to call it evolution (from less DNA information to more DNA information), if shifting of current DNA or removal of DNA then it is devolution, heading in the wrong direction to support Darwin's theory.

ID does not say changes will not happen, but mutations to date (that I am aware of) have all been moving around existing DNA or removing parts of existing DNA, not adding information to the DNA. You need to add volumes of information to go from "goo in a pond" to humans...so claiming things change without showing it adds information does not help disprove anything.

There have been many headlines saying "look at the evolution" but after the headlines they show themselves to be using information that was already there...time will tell on this one.

87 Pshawalaw  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:11:54pm

Tell me, isn't ID different from just believing there is a Creator?

88 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:11:55pm

re: #69 WhiteRasta

Please do not misunderstand my statement. I am in no way against deate on this, or any other issue. I am not saying that this should not be brought up on LGF. (for many reasons, including the biggest which is that it isn't up to me) I was only wondering if bringing this contentious issue up so often in the last couple days, when everyone involved (with an "i" not "e" ;) ) will have noticed that some are not as open to a difference of opinion as others, and instead choose to mock and degrade those who believe in Creation. I am never bothered by anything anyone here says about any topic, but came very close to it because of the manner of which some people disagreed with Creationism.

Again, I'll repeat that overall it doesn't matter what I think on this subject as its no my site, and I have no, to very very little say over what happens on this site. I just wished to get my 2c out. Which thanks to LGF was I able to.

89 Buster Bunny  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:12:24pm

Ire: #68 ploome hineni

[Link: findarticles.com...]

Thanks for that ploome .. i knew it was out there.

Charles .. there u go .. another prime example of that evo-looting stuff happening in the real world.

Hey you know .. you could make that into a whole topic !

/Bolshoi Bunny

90 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:12:48pm

So how about them Knicks?

91 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:13:31pm
92 Buster Bunny  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:13:46pm

re: #90 Nevergiveup

So how about them Knicks?

The Knicks evolved?

93 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:13:55pm

re: #86 schneidballs

My question would be, did the mutation result from an increase of DNA information (required for evolution)...

This is a Discovery Institute talking point, and it is simply not true.

94 Agahnim  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:14:48pm

re: #78 Charles

Really? Then why are you dinging down all the pro-evolution comments?

First thread I looked at there was a -9 ding on a guy who stated his opinion for ID, and didn't deserve any dings. I've since dinged down jerky comments, and up-dinged things I happen to agree with or good points made.

95 gibsonz  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:14:48pm

I have personally witnessed` 50 years of reverse evolution - it is called the democratic party!

96 schneidballs  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:15:12pm

By the way, that was my first post after reading for years...love the site Charles!

Go E. Coli!

97 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:15:22pm
98 Wookieelips  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:15:26pm

re: #49 bellamags

Does it really? and also, how did you find out?


Microbiology course.

The lab always smelled like. Had to smell it 4 mornings a week.

*barf*

100 Ringo the Gringo  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:15:38pm

I have no problem with ID being taught in the classroom, so long as it is in a philosophy class and not a science class.


Science should inform philosophy, but not the other way around.

101 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:15:51pm

There is nothing new, here, given that the influenza virus mutates/evolves/changes from year to year. All part of God's creation.

102 schneidballs  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:16:20pm
This is a Discovery Institute talking point, and it is simply not true.

Why is it not true? It seems reasonable to me that you need more DNA to evolve...

103 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:16:22pm

re: #97 ploome hineni

OT

Drudge could not find an uglier picture?

Well at least she is wearing a USMC pin.

104 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:16:27pm
105 Buster Bunny  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:16:39pm

re: #94 Agahnim

First thread I looked at there was a -9 ding on a guy who stated his opinion for ID, and didn't deserve any dings. I've since dinged down jerky comments, and up-dinged things I happen to agree with or good points made.

I'm anti-dingian in my beliefs. I believe that to ding you must ding for a reason. Note : the Buddhists also believe in this.

/Bong on Bunny

106 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:16:58pm

re: #67 buzzsawmonkey

Depends on what your definition of science is.

Physics is a provable science - gravity exists, acceleration exists (deceleration is only negative acceleration) torque exists. It took some pretty brilliant minds to see that and prove it.

Mathmatics is provable 1 plus 1 = 2 in any language. Imaginary numbers are a bit freaky.

107 Gordon Marock  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:17:42pm

Let's see, scientists use years of research, mapping of DNA, and studies of observable mutations of simple organisms to create bacteira that produce, among other things, oil, human hormones, etc, and the ID people still want to debunk the theory of evolution? What a bunch of dunces.

108 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:18:05pm

re: #99 WrathofG-d

Proof of Evolution....ha! take that Creationists!


What happened to poor old Moe?

109 gameover  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:18:10pm

Nano-evolution rules!

110 jelo  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:18:34pm

Just wait, believe what you want ...upon death you will all know the answer.

Just make sure you made the right choice!

111 NonNativeTexan  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:18:35pm

Should have also done Antibiotics in parallel, then we could have
mixed them and let em "duke it out"

112 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:18:54pm

re: #110 jelo

Just wait, believe what you want ...upon death you will all know the answer.

Just make sure you made the right choice!


We have a winner!

113 Agahnim  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:18:59pm

re: #105 Buster Bunny

I'm anti-dingian in my beliefs. I believe that to ding you must ding for a reason. Note : the Buddhists also believe in this.

/Bong on Bunny

I was searching the world for the ding, but the ding was inside me the whole time?

114 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:19:00pm

re: #102 schneidballs

Why is it not true? It seems reasonable to me that you need more DNA to evolve...

Uh, it may "sound reasonable" but it is not true. You don't need "extra DNA" for species to evolve. In fact, sometimes, mutations involve the LOSS of DNA.

115 VegasRick  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:19:28pm

re: #107 Gordon Marock

Let's see, scientists use years of research, mapping of DNA, and studies of observable mutations of simple organisms to create bacteira that produce, among other things, oil, human hormones, etc, and the ID people still want to debunk the theory of evolution? What a bunch of dunces.

Nice.

116 Pshawalaw  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:19:52pm

I'm not ready to give up on the possibility that a supreme being could have brought all of this into existence, including evolution; I don't see a conflict between the two ideas. Both could be true.

117 Boogberg  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:19:55pm

re: #78 Charles

Really? Then why are you dinging down all the pro-evolution comments?

Aaaahahahaha! Busted! :D

118 brickthruplateglasswindow  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:20:01pm

Evolution- syn. Change

Obama is the Evolution candidate. Just sayin'.

119 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:20:09pm

re: #108 A Kiwi Infidel

reintigrative progression?

120 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:20:16pm

re: #110 jelo

Just wait, believe what you want ...upon death you will all know the answer.

Just make sure you made the right choice!

Well that's why as a Jew, I never charge any of the Priests I treat. As far as for Imams, their on their own.

121 FamHistoryGuy  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:20:21pm

re: #6 Eowyn2


Maybe not that long.

122 stevedecatur  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:20:25pm

Science is wrong, they'll never find the missing link between humans and monkeys... but the creationists are wrong too.

http://www.last.fm/music/Dan+Bern/_/No+Missing+Lin k has a NSFW expletive

123 Buster Bunny  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:20:33pm

I conducted the most deep and meaningful experiment with E Coli in a restricted environment.

It involved a 3 week old piece of chicken, my refrigerator, and a nite on the tiles with a bucket at hand after realising that after 3 weeks .. dat chicken aint what he used to be.

My further experiment with chicken will be left to the experts in the lab.

/Bad Chicken Bunny

124 SuaSponte  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:21:04pm

Wow, maybe in another 15 years it will sprout a toe!

Did the number of base pairs in its genome increase? If so, then, statistically it should become human in about 12,000 years! It will probably become a liberal democrat a lot sooner. That could be a problem for the rest of us.

125 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:21:28pm

re: #116 Pshawalaw

I'm not ready to give up on the possibility that a supreme being could have brought all of this into existence, including evolution; I don't see a conflict between the two ideas. Both could be true.

Who said anything about giving up on religion?

126 Wookieelips  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:21:29pm

re: #107 Gordon Marock

Let's see, scientists use years of research, mapping of DNA, and studies of observable mutations of simple organisms to create bacteira that produce, among other things, oil, human hormones, etc, and the ID people still want to debunk the theory of evolution? What a bunch of dunces.


I was under the impression for like, forever, that ID wasn't about debunking evolution, but about believing that God made it possible.

Meh, I don't care.

127 angst  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:21:52pm

re: #3 Shug

you should get out more often

My thoughts exactly. This is how we get drug resistance.


re: #19 buzzsawmonkey

In the Year 2525

BTW, one of the worst songs ever.

My earth sciences teacher made us listen to that. I blame him for making me end up with dual majors in biology and philosophy- because the best way to ruin a good science education is to sit around and ask: But Why?

128 Gordon Marock  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:21:59pm

It is clear from the lack of posts quoting my previous posts that some here are utterly afraid of confronting the one thing that makes many insist on pushing ID, i.e., they are too afraid to confront the intellectual possibility that the human mind, includding their inner selves, is terminated irrevocably upon physical death. Science must always be free to ask the hardest questions in life, and scardey cats have no business in a laboratory.

129 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:22:05pm

re: #124 SuaSponte

Did the number of base pairs in its genome increase?

This is a non sequitur.

130 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:22:20pm

re: #73 Charles

You're going to have to prove that, because it's certainly not what I was taught in science class.

No offense, but I think you're a little older than my kids. I wasnt taught that in my biology or advanced biology in high school. My kids graduated in 99, 2000 and 2001. Reading their science books, there was rarely any mention of the word "theory" whereas it was all over in my 74 and 76 biology books.

131 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:23:13pm

re: #119 WrathofG-d

reintigrative progression?


I guess thats what happens when you spend too much time in the bar

132 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:23:45pm
#114 Charles
re: #102 schneidballs

Why is it not true? It seems reasonable to me that you need more DNA to evolve...

Uh, it may "sound reasonable" but it is not true. You don't need "extra DNA" for species to evolve. In fact, sometimes, mutations involve the LOSS of DNA.

schneidballs, people have been studying this exact topic for decades and decades. Charles is correct, it has nothing to do with the "amount" of DNA. There's enough information floating around in any species' DNA to do a whole lotta evolving. The mere fact that you personally connot visualize how it works doesn't mean it can't work.

it works all the time.

133 nbenhaim  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:23:56pm

I don't get it. Why does Charles keep posting ID/Evolution topics. Who cares if frikkin E Coli bacteria evolves? Is this something new? Nobody denies that evolution has been occurring for millions of years. Not even Ben Stein!

-Nadav

134 Purple Prose  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:23:58pm

Can science come up with a way to get Islam to evolve? Reformation? Rejection of literalism, supremacism and tribal Bedouin aspects of the ideology? Tolerance for other belief systems? Renunciation of sharia, jihad, coercive dawa and deception to attain the goal of global Islamic domination? Respect for truth and individual responsibility?

Now that would be something!

135 Gordon Marock  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:23:59pm

Correction:

It is clear from the lack of posts quoting my previous posts that some here are utterly afraid of confronting the one thing that makes many insist on pushing ID, i.e., they are too afraid to confront the intellectual possibility that the human mind, includding their inner selves, is terminated irrevocably upon physical death. Science must always be free to ask the hardest questions in life, and scardey cats have no business in a laboratory.

136 VegasRick  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:24:08pm

re: #118 brickthruplateglasswindow

Evolution- syn. Change

Obama is the Evolution candidate. Just sayin'.

From an earlier post that nobody commented on.
[Link: thestoneoftear.blogspot.com...]

137 Pshawalaw  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:24:18pm

re: #125 Charles

Who said anything about giving up on religion?

Well, that is why I asked a few comments back about ID being distinct from believing in a creator. I get the sense that some here think ID is the only way in which the creation story can be stated.

138 Pyroskank  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:24:51pm

re: #116 Pshawalaw

I'm not ready to give up on the possibility that a supreme being could have brought all of this into existence, including evolution; I don't see a conflict between the two ideas. Both could be true.

This is what I'm saying. There IS no conflict.

And while "ID" is an intriguing philosophical theory, it has no place in any science classroom, because as Charles pointed out, it is not falsifiable, and therefore, not science. No bacteria necessary to prove that one.

139 rightwinger3  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:24:52pm

re: #107 Gordon Marock

Let's see, scientists use years of research, mapping of DNA, and studies of observable mutations of simple organisms to create bacteira that produce, among other things, oil, human hormones, etc, and the ID people still want to debunk the theory of evolution? What a bunch of dunces.

I guess I just want to debunk the common ancestor crap. I don't think we were amoebas evolved over billions of years. Evolution occurs as evidenced by what Charles posted above. Scientifically observed, I have no reason to doubt E Coli uses citrate when it could not before. Even the finches on Galapagos evolved into new finch species. That kind of stuff, to me, doesn't prove we all evolved from the first 2 cells ever and have a common ancestor.

140 angst  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:25:01pm

re: #132 zombie

schneidballs, people have been studying this exact topic for decades and decades. Charles is correct, it has nothing to do with the "amount" of DNA. There's enough information floating around in any species' DNA to do a whole lotta evolving. The mere fact that you personally connot visualize how it works doesn't mean it can't work.

it works all the time.

Did you know there are only 9 genes in HIV? Prions have even less and they are the deadliest things of all because you can't kill 'em.

141 schneidballs  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:25:16pm
Uh, it may "sound reasonable" but it is not true. You don't need "extra DNA" for species to evolve. In fact, sometimes, mutations involve the LOSS of DNA.

So how did all the information get there in the first place? That's what the whole debate is over isn't it? Showing going backward or sideways doesn't help diffuse the argument.

142 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:25:19pm

re: #133 nbenhaim

I don't get it. Why does Charles keep posting ID/Evolution topics. Who cares if frikkin E Coli bacteria evolves? Is this something new? Nobody denies that evolution has been occurring for millions of years. Not even Ben Stein!

-Nadav

The only reason ID came up is because commenters brought it up. The article has nothing to do with ID.

It's an interesting article on a fascinating scientific experiment.

143 frodolives  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:25:32pm

re: #20 Charles

According to the wiki article you cited, falsifiable (besides being a #$%^&*! mouthful) is able to be criticized by observational reports. Reminds me so much of the old question, "If a tree falls in the forest and no one is near it, does it still make a sound?"

That others didn't hear the sound doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Besides, I think an argument can be made about the what exactly counts as observational. But not at the moment. Too long of a day and too much still to do.

144 Buster Bunny  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:25:52pm

re: #124 SuaSponte

Wow, maybe in another 15 years it will sprout a toe!

Did the number of base pairs in its genome increase? If so, then, statistically it should become human in about 12,000 years! It will probably become a liberal democrat a lot sooner. That could be a problem for the rest of us.

The chances of any sequence resembling any previous sequence is placed at odds that would scare any on-course bookie. So why assume that from a non-common derivative you can achieve similar results?

/Betting Bunny

145 Cicero05  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:26:02pm

re: #133 nbenhaim

I don't get it. Why does Charles keep posting ID/Evolution topics. Who cares if frikkin E Coli bacteria evolves? Is this something new? Nobody denies that evolution has been occurring for millions of years. Not even Ben Stein!

-Nadav

You should care. That frickin' bacteria is going to have your job in 15 years.

146 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:26:15pm

Let's talk about the Evolution of a BAD Idea:

"Final stage of Gaza truce may include multinational Arab force"

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

Am I the only one who sees a problem with this?

147 Ringo the Gringo  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:26:20pm

re: #132 zombie

zombie,

Someone has posted about a buch of links to porn-sites in your Israel in the Garden thread at zomblog.

148 SusanL  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:26:22pm

re: #88 WrathofG-d

I agree Wrath. At the first mocking comment, I just stop reading.

I understand that evolution exists, I also understand that we have been taught the creation story our whole lives (if you were raised a Christian).

What bothers me is the "you have to be stupid to believe that" comments.

Those just sound like the way libs talk about all of us.

149 right_on_target  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:26:34pm

re: #6 Eowyn2

it stands to reason that in 32,500 generations, humans will loose the need for toes.

Then the human race will really be pushovers!

150 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:26:46pm
151 Dar ul Harb  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:26:47pm

re: #102 schneidballs

Why is it not true? It seems reasonable to me that you need more DNA to evolve...

Well, among animals characterized so far, the South American lungfish Lepidosiren paradoxa has the most DNA, at 80 picograms per genome.

Among mammals, the Red viscacha rat, Tympanoctomys barrerae, has the most, with 8.4 picograms per genome.

The human genome is 3.5 picograms.

Source: genomesize.com

152 astronmr20  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:27:04pm

The question is, though, what is the mechanism of this evolution?

153 SusanL  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:27:14pm

re: #97 ploome hineni

OT

Drudge could not find an uglier picture?

They do it on purpose.

154 frodolives  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:27:19pm

re: #136 VegasRick


earliest stage?

155 Buster Bunny  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:27:22pm

re: #147 Ringo the Gringo

zombie,

Someone has posted about a buch of links to porn-sites in your Israel in the Garden thread at zomblog.

GOOD porn sites?

156 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:27:26pm

re: #146 Nevergiveup

Let's talk about the Evolution of a BAD Idea:

"Final stage of Gaza truce may include multinational Arab force"

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

Am I the only one who sees a problem with this?


Ah, no, ergo; elBaradei as nuke inspector of Iran

157 Fritz_Katz  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:27:35pm

re: #51 Charles

re: #47 frodolives
how do you figure it shows that it's not science?


[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]


Not everyone agrees with 'Falsifiability'. FTA:

In their book Fashionable Nonsense ... the physicists Alan Sokal and Jean Bricmont criticized falsifiability on the grounds that it does not accurately describe the way science really works. They argue that theories are used because of their successes, not because of the failures of other theories. ... They further argue that falsifiability cannot distinguish between astrology and astronomy, as both make technical predictions that are sometimes incorrect.

IMHO, Science is what works and even more important -- what gets funded. Therefore theories of evolution and 'man-made global warming' must be correct -- and the theories or creationism and 'natural climate change' must be false.

158 astronmr20  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:27:42pm

re: #146 Nevergiveup

Let's talk about the Evolution of a BAD Idea:

"Final stage of Gaza truce may include multinational Arab force"

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

Am I the only one who sees a problem with this?

Holy shit!

Arab soldiers at Israel's door again. baaaaaad move.

159 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:27:42pm
160 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:27:45pm

Introns and Extrons
that's what it's all about
Promoters are important too
but base pairs have the clout

161 right wing zephyr  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:27:54pm

re: #139 rightwinger3

...That kind of stuff, to me, doesn't prove we all evolved from the first 2 cells ever and have a common ancestor.

Because that would be absurd.

Of course that should not be taught in our schools. Right?

162 csa945  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:27:59pm

re: #26 Charles

I don't know why it should chase anyone off if I link to articles about valid scientific experiments.

It would be as if you tuned into ESPN to watch football, but they ended up showing opera or ballet instead.

I concur with WrathofG-d: It's your blog; do with it as you want, but most people who come here do so out of an interest in combatting/increasing awareness of Islamofascism and politics as it relates to that subject.

If you start to devote more attention to evolution/creationism/intelligent design issues, I would suspect that many people, even some who are sympathetic to your point of view, will lose interest. Just speaking for myself: I've been a regular visitor since I found out about LGF back in 2003, and I'm largely ambivalent on the whole evolution/ID thing, so the more attention you devote to it, the more I lose interest in the blog. I realize I can't speak for anyone else, but I wouldn't be surprised if others shared my sentiments.

163 protestshooter  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:27:59pm

re: #133 nbenhaim

I don't get it. Why does Charles keep posting ID/Evolution topics. Who cares if frikkin E Coli bacteria evolves? Is this something new? Nobody denies that evolution has been occurring for millions of years. Not even Ben Stein!

-Nadav


I thought it was interesting.

164 Ringo the Gringo  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:28:01pm

re: #155 Buster Bunny

GOOD porn sites?

I don't think so.

165 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:28:03pm
166 FamHistoryGuy  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:28:05pm

re: #55 Dar ul Harb

Nor the UN investigator of discrimination in the US presidential campaign.

167 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:28:13pm

PIMF

exons

168 Gordon Marock  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:28:38pm

re: #142 Charles

Indeed, Charles. However, the need for the ID people to make others believe is grounded in the fear that if other rational people don't believe as they do, that they might be wrong and, if so, I sshudder to consider the possibilities.

169 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:28:39pm
170 angst  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:28:42pm

re: #152 astronmr20

The question is, though, what is the mechanism of this evolution?

What the E. coli did, only a couple of orders of magnitude greater.

171 Dar ul Harb  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:28:52pm

re: #151 Dar ul Harb

Hope we don't feel inadequate.

172 Pshawalaw  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:28:58pm

re: #138 Pyroskank

This is what I'm saying. There IS no conflict.

And while "ID" is an intriguing philosophical theory, it has no place in any science classroom, because as Charles pointed out, it is not falsifiable, and therefore, not science. No bacteria necessary to prove that one.

I'm not sure that we are all talking about the same thing when we cite ID, I believe that it is a distinct interpretation of how a supreme being is involved which we may not all agree with. I'm not sure how else to say it. ID may not be what you think it is.

173 right wing zephyr  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:28:58pm

re: #142 Charles

The only reason ID came up is because commenters brought it up. The article has nothing to do with ID.

It's an interesting article on a fascinating scientific experiment.

lol, good one.

174 Charles the Hammer  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:29:20pm

Can I ask whether or not this new E. Coli is now a new species? If not, this proves nothing. Again, this only "proves" Darwin's theory if you interpret the information this way. Even the article says that the trait "developed" is not "normally" considered a trait of E. Coli. Do we know that E. Coli, from the beginning, was genetically unable to make this adjustment, as a species? That is, the idea that species can change within limitations (a range of different traits that they can employ) but that doesn't necessarily lead to new species.

Of course, even questioning this probably means I'm some "lunatic creationist" to some.

the sinner,

Charles

175 Ringo the Gringo  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:29:34pm

re: #169 ploome hineni

well, check it out

and report back

:D

I would have, but I'm at work.

176 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:29:54pm
177 bulwrk  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:30:00pm

I've conducted similar experiments with left over pizza in my refrigerator before.

178 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:30:12pm

re: #157 Fritz_Katz

In their book Fashionable Nonsense ... the physicists Alan Sokal and Jean Bricmont criticized falsifiability on the grounds that it does not accurately describe the way science really works. They argue that theories are used because of their successes, not because of the failures of other theories. ... They further argue that falsifiability cannot distinguish between astrology and astronomy, as both make technical predictions that are sometimes incorrect.

The Sokal Affair.

179 right wing zephyr  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:30:23pm

re: #168 Gordon Marock

Indeed, Charles. However, the need for the ID people to make others believe is grounded in the fear that if other rational people don't believe as they do, that they might be wrong ...

In my experience that is f'ing ridiculous.

180 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:30:23pm

re: #89 Buster Bunny

Heck, the Native Americans were taming wolf cubs long before this.

Papa wolf: Okay kid, that guy is gonna throw us a bone, dont eat his hand or we get thrown out into the forty below weather. got that, good. now look cute and maybe we can get the elk snout

181 GGMac  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:30:38pm

Evolution?

Change!

182 jelo  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:30:44pm

re: #110 jelo

hey..... somebody out there gave me a (-1)..what's up with that?

183 goddessoftheclassroom  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:30:45pm

re: #148 SusanL

I agree Wrath. At the first mocking comment, I just stop reading.

I understand that evolution exists, I also understand that we have been taught the creation story our whole lives (if you were raised a Christian).

What bothers me is the "you have to be stupid to believe that" comments.

Those just sound like the way libs talk about all of us.

Exactly.

The other thing that bothers me is the idea that some teach that the theory of evolution PROVES that God did not create the universe. [NB: Charles, I know that is not your point at all.]

The bottom line, though: in terms of what is taught in the science curriculum of public schools, the origins of the universe, including life on earth, is a very small part indeed.

184 astronmr20  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:30:48pm

re: #170 angst

What the E. coli did, only a couple of orders of magnitude greater.

Huh?


I am asking what causes it. How can molecules, or DNA, have "will"? What makes it want to survive better?

This experiment is fascinating and perhaps groundbreaking.

But what is the mechanism?

185 rightwinger3  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:31:08pm

re: #161 right wing zephyr

Because that would be absurd.

Of course that should not be taught in our schools. Right?

Of course it should, don't be an ass.

186 Three Hundred  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:31:21pm

It has been shown that chickens can grow teeth by tweaking existing genetic information, not requireing the addition of dna.
chicken could grow teeth

187 Wookieelips  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:31:33pm

re: #134 Purple Prose

Can science come up with a way to get Islam to evolve? Reformation? Rejection of literalism, supremacism and tribal Bedouin aspects of the ideology? Tolerance for other belief systems? Renunciation of sharia, jihad, coercive dawa and deception to attain the goal of global Islamic domination? Respect for truth and individual responsibility?

Now that would be something!


Now, now. We all know science has only come so far...

188 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:31:40pm

re: #156 A Kiwi Infidel

I guess Olmert never read about the Trojan horse.

189 Kenneth  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:31:51pm

re: #8 frodolives

...mutants are not new, yes exciting to see it happen, but doesn't really change the discussion. ie, it doesn't disprove ID

Right. The Designer was so Intelligent he decided to change the design after 31,500 iterations.

190 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:31:55pm

re: #182 jelo

hey..... somebody out there gave me a (-1)..what's up with that?


Nice folks always get dinged down, sorry.

191 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:32:14pm

I will dismantle both camps with one question for each group

Creation people :explain the duck billed platypus

Evolution people: explain Flava Flav

192 right wing zephyr  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:32:25pm

re: #185 rightwinger3

excuse me?

193 VegasRick  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:32:31pm

re: #154 frodolives

earliest stage?

Of what?

194 brickthruplateglasswindow  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:32:33pm

re: #136 VegasRick

From an earlier post that nobody commented on.
[Link: thestoneoftear.blogspot.com...]

Missed that.
Thanks for the link. :)

195 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:32:48pm

re: #177 bulwrk

I've conducted similar experiments with left over pizza in my refrigerator before.

I find enough microwave heat either kills or inactivates most harmful bacteria. but it does leave the pizza a tad crisp?

196 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:32:54pm

re: #86 schneidballs

My question would be, did the mutation result from an increase of DNA information (required for evolution) or a re-shuffling of what was already there, or removing information a that was there previously.


That's another dead end creationist talking point. Evolution does not require an "increase" in "genetic information". It's a nonsensical talking point.

197 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:33:03pm

re: #188 WrathofG-d

I guess Olmert never read about the Trojan horse.


Olmert is a desperate tool, and a more desperate tool as each day passes toward his demise.

198 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:33:13pm
199 Buster Bunny  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:33:14pm

re: #188 WrathofG-d

I guess Olmert never read about the Trojan horse.

Olmert couldnt care less. He's there for what he can get out of it. Anything that happened before or after his reign is someone else's problem.

/Bolitical Bunny

200 astronmr20  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:33:26pm

re: #191 Shug

I will dismantle both camps with one question for each group

Creation people :explain the duck billed platypus

Evolution people: explain Flava Flav

"Yeaaaaaahhh boyeeeeeee!"

That is the only explanation needed. Carry on.

201 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:33:38pm

re: #127 angst

could explain the angst.

202 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:33:40pm
#133 nbenhaim 6/18/08 4:23:56 pm reply quote 0
I don't get it. Why does Charles keep posting ID/Evolution topics. Who cares if frikkin E Coli bacteria evolves? Is this something new? Nobody denies that evolution has been occurring for millions of years. Not even Ben Stein!

Yes, they certainly do deny that evolution has been happening. Most creationists, with very few exceptions, believe that each species on earth was created by God -- and thus did not evolve. Or at the most forgiving, they believe that God "directed" the evolution of each species, which just as egregiously denies and rejects the mechanism of "evolution through natural selection."

That's why Charles keeps posting these threads. Because many many people still do deny evolution, and those people seek to ruin any chance McCain has of getting elected, by making conservatives as a group look like buffoons.

203 unclassifiable  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:33:41pm

re: #14 pat

Into E. Coli bacteria?

Change!

204 angst  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:34:10pm

re: #157 Fritz_Katz

IMHO, Science is what works and even more important -- what gets funded. Therefore theories of evolution and 'man-made global warming' must be correct -- and the theories or creationism and 'natural climate change' must be false.

The ability for a theory to "work," i.e. predict future results or effect a predictable change is another way to verify a theory, especially if one can't set up an experiment to falsify it. I would guess that physicists are very much in favor of verifying theories that way since sometimes one can't manipulate the variables- especially at the extremes of astrophysics or quantum physics. To wait for evidence to rule out one's theory might take a lifetime.

205 right wing zephyr  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:34:15pm

re: #185 rightwinger3

Of course it should, don't be an ass.

You think we should teach kids in schools that humans came from 2 cells originally?

206 SusanL  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:34:26pm

re: #191 Shug

Thats easy, the platapus is made from the left over parts. :)

I don't know what a Flav a flav is, so I can't offer any suggestions.

S

207 protestshooter  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:34:26pm

re: #174 Charles the Hammer

Can I ask whether or not this new E. Coli is now a new species? If not, this proves nothing. Again, this only "proves" Darwin's theory if you interpret the information this way. Even the article says that the trait "developed" is not "normally" considered a trait of E. Coli. Do we know that E. Coli, from the beginning, was genetically unable to make this adjustment, as a species? That is, the idea that species can change within limitations (a range of different traits that they can employ) but that doesn't necessarily lead to new species.

Of course, even questioning this probably means I'm some "lunatic creationist" to some.

the sinner,

Charles

Your statement doesn't even really parse. The line between two groups that have genetically drifted apart - are they a different species or not - is fairly arbitrary. This is arguably a new species because the inability to use these goodies is one of the defining aspects of the species. But it's a constant debate in biology to split and combine species (on paper).

208 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:34:49pm

re: #188 WrathofG-d

I guess Olmert never read about the Trojan horse.

I wish Olmert's father had used a Trojan.

209 jc59  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:34:51pm

The article wouldn't be complete without the obligatory parting shot:

The thing I like most is it says you can get these complex traits evolving by a combination of unlikely events," he says. "That's just what creationists say can't happen."

210 experiencedtraveller  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:34:52pm

re: #145 Cicero05

You should care. That frickin' bacteria is going to have your job in 15 years.

Yeah but the democrats will unionize them and they'll get fat and lazy on government subsidies and then THE MAN will fire the bacteria and hire a low paying human.

211 brickthruplateglasswindow  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:35:08pm

re: #151 Dar ul Harb

Well, among animals characterized so far, the South American lungfish Lepidosiren paradoxa has the most DNA, at 80 picograms per genome.

Among mammals, the Red viscacha rat, Tympanoctomys barrerae, has the most, with 8.4 picograms per genome.

The human genome is 3.5 picograms.

Source: genomesize.com

It's official then. Size doesn't matter.

212 astronmr20  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:35:09pm

re: #206 SusanL

Thats easy, the platapus is made from the left over parts. :)

I don't know what a Flav a flav is, so I can't offer any suggestions.

S

Google.

213 rightwinger3  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:35:23pm

re: #192 right wing zephyr

excuse me?

Read your statement/question to me again and tell me you weren't being condescending. If I misconstrued your intent, sorry.

214 saberry0530  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:35:45pm

re: #4 Charles

Charles,
You read about the Lab grown and engineered bacteria that eat garbage and poop highly refined crude oil? That's a bacteria to love and appreciate. I'll see if I can find the article.

215 SusanL  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:35:46pm

re: #205 right wing zephyr

RWZ, we do come from two cells, a sperm cell and an egg cell.

216 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:35:56pm
217 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:36:04pm

re: #162 csa945

Ah, there you are. We've been watching you obsessively downrating evolution comments and links. We were wondering if you ever commented here.

218 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:36:07pm

re: #209 jc59

The article wouldn't be complete without the obligatory parting shot:

The thing I like most is it says you can get these complex traits evolving by a combination of unlikely events," he says. "That's just what creationists say can't happen."

Is there something untrue about that?

219 looking closely  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:36:24pm

No amount of experiments will ever convince anyone who is a fundamentalist.

You can't convince by logic someone out of a position they didn't enter by logic.

220 right wing zephyr  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:36:30pm

re: #213 rightwinger3

I've had a rough day. Sorry I think I didn't make any sense. I'm out.

221 GreenDroll  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:36:30pm

Evolution called by another name would be 'best practices.' Anyone with business or combat experience realizes that the inability to identify and quickly adopt whatever works best equals failure. Intelligent design only works if you are God (being all knowing, God allowed for adaptive change); generals and executives usually get it wrong and are painfully loathe to admit it.

222 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:36:40pm
223 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:36:48pm

re: #174 Charles the Hammer

Can I ask whether or not this new E. Coli is now a new species? If not, this proves nothing. Again, this only "proves" Darwin's theory if you interpret the information this way. Even the article says that the trait "developed" is not "normally" considered a trait of E. Coli. Do we know that E. Coli, from the beginning, was genetically unable to make this adjustment, as a species? That is, the idea that species can change within limitations (a range of different traits that they can employ) but that doesn't necessarily lead to new species.

Of course, even questioning this probably means I'm some "lunatic creationist" to some.

What alternate explanation do you have for the development of the millions of species, genera, phyli, families, etc. of plants and animals on this planet? Where did they come from if not through evolution?

I'd be willing to entertain any reasonable theory. Problem is, for the last two hundred years, there has but no alternate theory at all. Just a denial of the self-evident data.

224 eastvillageinfidel  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:37:00pm

re: #56 Buster Bunny

I saw something about this on some nature channel awhile back too. The Russians wanted to make the foxes friendlier so the people who worked in the kennels wouldn't get bitten so much. It seemed the friendlier they became , the more physically diverse they became - spotted coats, floppy ears etc.

225 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:37:27pm

re: #199 Buster Bunny

Olmert and anyone that allows multinational Arab forces into Gaza (or Judea/Samaria) is a major idiot. If under that arrangement, the Terrorists continue to be Terrorists, Israel will not be able to respond, and will be forced to complain to some International body while her citizens are being murdered. If however Israel does respond to the (inevitable) Terrorist attacks, it will undoubtely injure an "international Arab", and thus spark either (a) and international propaganda coup against Israel, or (b) a regional war.

If it is the latter then I can only hope that Israel wins and takes that opportunity to finish the unintended consequences of 1967.

226 NoSubmission  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:37:40pm
227 right wing zephyr  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:37:46pm

re: #215 SusanL

RWZ, we do come from two cells, a sperm cell and an egg cell.

Uhm. I don't think so. Where did you learn that nonsense?

228 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:37:50pm
229 astronmr20  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:37:54pm

Again,

What is the mechanism of this evolution? What causes it?

WHY do things evolve?


Why is survival necessary in these e.coli?

How can base molecules organize for "purpose?"

230 astronmr20  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:38:10pm
231 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:38:15pm

re: #147 Ringo the Gringo

zombie,

Someone has posted about a buch of links to porn-sites in your Israel in the Garden thread at zomblog.

Yeah, I know, I know, periodically I have to go through the whole site and delete spam comments.

Akismet spam-blocker ain't working too well for me.

232 jc59  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:38:18pm

"That's just what creationists say can't happen."

Really? I suppose this is a true statement since which creationists he doesn't specify. Do ID scientists claim that a mutation cannot create a new trait? No.

233 Cicero05  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:38:23pm

I met a girl while dating once who told me that she was absolutely certain that evolution was wrong. The reason she was so sure was that if people really evolved from apes, she said, then today we would see chimpanzees occasionally giving birth to human babies. "And that's never happened."

That was our last date.

234 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:38:41pm
235 protestshooter  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:38:41pm

re: #226 NoSubmission

More Obama Street Art spotted in Brooklyn.

hat tip/ buzzsawmonkey!

That's pretty cool, actually. Here we just have a bunch of screeching hippies bitching about UC changing its landscaping.

236 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:38:44pm

re: #216 Shug

OT
Haditha marine preparing to sue traitor Murtha

Any lawyers here want to comment on his chances?

237 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:38:51pm

re: #191 Shug

I will dismantle both camps with one question for each group

Creation people :explain the duck billed platypus

Evolution people: explain Flava Flav

God has a sense of humor:)

238 astronmr20  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:39:12pm

re: #225 WrathofG-d

Olmert and anyone that allows multinational Arab forces into Gaza (or Judea/Samaria) is a major idiot. If under that arrangement, the Terrorists continue to be Terrorists, Israel will not be able to respond, and will be forced to complain to some International body while her citizens are being murdered. If however Israel does respond to the (inevitable) Terrorist attacks, it will undoubtely injure an "international Arab", and thus spark either (a) and international propaganda coup against Israel, or (b) a regional war.

If it is the latter then I can only hope that Israel wins and takes that opportunity to finish the unintended consequences of 1967.

+10.

239 NoSubmission  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:39:58pm

re: #234 buzzsawmonkey

Creepy on several levels, ain't it?


It is! Definitely a home made one. Not by an 'artist' or anything. I know the street very well.. I haven't been down there in a while. It is totally gentrified.

240 VegasRick  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:40:01pm

re: #194 brickthruplateglasswindow

Missed that.
Thanks for the link. :)

re: #216 Shug

OT
Haditha marine preparing to sue traitor Murtha

Your welcome. I also stated that the evolutionists share this belief with the messiah so they have that going for them, which is nice.

241 NonNativeTexan  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:40:02pm

ID is just one theory of explaining the giant leaps in evolution
that take place in a short amount of time. This shows up in the
holes in the fossil records. The "I" makes the stew on the stove.
The "I" lets it cook a few million years. Every now and then
when the time is right the "I" adds a new ingredient and stirs.
Lets it cook for a few million more years and then adds
another ingredient, stirs, etc.


By the way:
The Science of God: The Convergence of Scientific and Biblical Wisdom - By Gerald Schroeder is a good read

242 Buster Bunny  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:40:02pm

re: #233 Cicero05

I met a girl while dating once who told me that she was absolutely certain that evolution was wrong. The reason she was so sure was that if people really evolved from apes, she said, then today we would see chimpanzees occasionally giving birth to human babies. "And that's never happened."

That was our last date.

Whats her phonenumber? Anyone that daft has to be worthy breeding material .....

243 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:40:11pm

re: #228 ploome hineni

the must have thought the comment was dumB


The...the....the...the....spit it out ploome...THEY, dayamit

244 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:40:19pm

re: #226 NoSubmission

Yo little homey, chiggy check dis out yo! oBOMBa!

245 NoSubmission  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:40:21pm

re: #235 protestshooter

That's pretty cool, actually. Here we just have a bunch of screeching hippies bitching about UC changing its landscaping.


I'm dying to take a pic of me in my McCain 08 tshirt in front of it!

246 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:40:27pm

re: #231 zombie

Yeah, I know, I know, periodically I have to go through the whole site and delete spam comments.

Akismet spam-blocker ain't working too well for me.

Why don't you just turn on the Wordpress registration feature?

247 unclassifiable  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:40:37pm

re: #191 Shug

Evolution people: explain Flava Flav

De-evolution.

It could happen.

248 looking closely  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:40:38pm

re: #233 Cicero05

I met a girl while dating once who told me that she was absolutely certain that evolution was wrong. The reason she was so sure was that if people really evolved from apes, she said, then today we would see chimpanzees occasionally giving birth to human babies. "And that's never happened."

That was our last date.

Who ever said humans were the most intelligent species anyway?

249 angst  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:40:41pm

re: #184 astronmr20

Huh?


I am asking what causes it. How can molecules, or DNA, have "will"? What makes it want to survive better?

This experiment is fascinating and perhaps groundbreaking.

But what is the mechanism?

It doesn't need will. The ones that survive better get to reproduce, it's that simple. The E. coli that happened to have a random mutation to metabolize citrate dramatically expanded their population because they was a new energy source to exploit, and there was no competition for it.

Do this in reverse, say with penicillin, and the ones that survive the drug will all have the DNA for penicillinase, an enzyme that destroys penicillin. Then their population will explode because the germs without penicillinase will have perished, reducing the competition.

The mechanism is natural selection.

250 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:40:46pm

re: #233 Cicero05

I met a girl while dating once who told me that she was absolutely certain that evolution was wrong. The reason she was so sure was that if people really evolved from apes, she said, then today we would see chimpanzees occasionally giving birth to human babies. "And that's never happened."

How do you explain me, then? I visit my mom at the zoo at least twice a week.

251 jelo  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:40:47pm

re: #190 A Kiwi Infidel

Ya I know the truth hurts,

And Charles, it's more than just "religion"...cause ya got guys and gals out there that think religious suicide/homicide bombings are a sole/soul sacrament.

252 GGMac  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:40:49pm

e. coli bacteria?

Just poop!

253 Agahnim  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:40:57pm

re: #114 Charles

Uh, it may "sound reasonable" but it is not true. You don't need "extra DNA" for species to evolve. In fact, sometimes, mutations involve the LOSS of DNA.

There is a substantial amount of DNA that is not normally used in replication (trash dna that works as a buffer around the regular code), but can be used through mutation. Most mutations result in the death of the cell, except for the occasional substitution mutation which codes for an unobtrusive protein.

Which means that this cell likely went through a heck of a lot of substitution mutations to create the enzyme that allows it to metabolize citrate.

E. Coli has the ability to metabolise lactose in environments with limited glucose (this is the environment the mutation occured in) so perhaps a mutation occured in this pathway?

254 NoSubmission  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:40:58pm

re: #244 WrathofG-d

Yo little homey, chiggy check dis out yo! oBOMBa!


Gah!

255 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:40:58pm

re: #229 astronmr20

How can base molecules organize for "purpose?"

Because the ones that adapt to changes in the environment are the ones that reproduce and survive to spawn future generations. The ones that don't tend to die out.

256 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:41:20pm

What about space aliens doing it with apes ?

257 GreenDroll  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:41:22pm

re: #191 Shug

Too easy;
Civilization suspends evolutionary pressure the same way isolation does. Don't knock on Flav though unless your paycheck > than his.

258 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:41:40pm

re: #202 zombie

Yes, they certainly do deny that evolution has been happening. Most creationists, with very few exceptions, believe that each species on earth was created by God -- and thus did not evolve. Or at the most forgiving, they believe that God "directed" the evolution of each species, which just as egregiously denies and rejects the mechanism of "evolution through natural selection."

That's why Charles keeps posting these threads. Because many many people still do deny evolution, and those people seek to ruin any chance McCain has of getting elected, by making conservatives as a group look like buffoons.

That wasnt very nice. There are people who deny evolution but the only people who are out there trying to tie every conservative into the 'right wing Judeo-Christian conservative nazi' camp are generally members of the left wing commie anarchist camp:)

259 protestshooter  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:41:41pm

re: #245 NoSubmission

I'm dying to take a pic of me in my McCain 08 tshirt in front of it!

You know, I don't know that I've ever seen a McCain t-shirt.

260 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:41:42pm
261 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:42:14pm
262 astronmr20  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:42:25pm

I love the Chi-com obama poster:

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

263 looking closely  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:42:26pm

re: #247 unclassifiable

De-evolution.

It could happen.

Indeed.

264 Agahnim  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:42:36pm

re: #140 angst

Did you know there are only 9 genes in HIV? Prions have even less and they are the deadliest things of all because you can't kill 'em.

I think of Prions as zombie proteins, personally. =P

265 NoSubmission  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:42:46pm

re: #259 protestshooter

You know, I don't know that I've ever seen a McCain t-shirt.


This is the one I want!

266 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:42:48pm

re: #256 Shug

What about space aliens doing it with apes ?


I guess the aliens arent fussy.

267 Wookieelips  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:42:49pm

re: #247 unclassifiable

De-evolution.

It could happen.


We've found too many to cheat nature. It's easy for stupid people to survive in America now. Just look at all the libfreaks.

You take the good with the bad, I guess.

268 nyc redneck  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:42:55pm

it's a very fascinating topic. it would seem that microbes mutate and evolve easily.
i read a book by ken albeck (?) abt. scientists in russia weaponizing certain diseases to make them more lethal.
ie. regular run of the mill small pox w/ a 40% mortality rate has been turned into black pox which kills nearly 98% of it's victims.
also anthrax has been turned into a monster disease compared to the mild strain often found on the farm.
not to mention the common cold virus that mutates and infects you next yr.
what is really dangerous is when a bacteria doesn't just "decide" to go for citrate but decides to jump to a new species and make a living there. that creates real hell for a the new host.
that's the theory on small pox. it is a large (in size) virus w/ of all things a mouse gene. which shows it could have infected people from a rodent.

269 Ojoe  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:43:06pm

Now instead of displaying bad posture at the dinner table, the E.coli will citrate.

270 saberry0530  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:43:16pm

Here's the link for the company that is making garbage eating, oil pooping bacteria.

CAN YA SPARE A FEW BUCKS FOR AN IPO, MISTA?

271 Yankee Division Son  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:43:17pm

re: #216 Shug

OT
Haditha marine preparing to sue traitor Murtha

Good for him.

272 protestshooter  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:43:30pm

re: #265 NoSubmission

This is the one I want!

I like it!

273 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:43:31pm

re: #229 astronmr20

Again,

What is the mechanism of this evolution? What causes it?

WHY do things evolve?


Why is survival necessary in these e.coli?

How can base molecules organize for "purpose?"

I suggest a basic biology course to answer your questions.

If you don't already know the answer, then you apparently don't even know what this debate is about.

Darwin answered those questions 150 years ago.

274 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:43:48pm

re: #261 ploome hineni

I m not now, nor have ever been a typPISSEd

:)

I am a thinkerdrinker

Your typing exposes you.

275 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:43:51pm
276 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:44:03pm

re: #256 Shug

What about space aliens doing it with apes ?

Is that a shot at my In-Laws?

277 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:44:08pm

re: #233 Cicero05

I met a girl while dating once who told me that she was absolutely certain that evolution was wrong. The reason she was so sure was that if people really evolved from apes, she said, then today we would see chimpanzees occasionally giving birth to human babies. "And that's never happened."

That was our last date.

Did you ask her out because she was intelligent or because she had big tatas?

278 Pyroskank  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:44:33pm

re: #172 Pshawalaw

I'm not sure that we are all talking about the same thing when we cite ID, I believe that it is a distinct interpretation of how a supreme being is involved which we may not all agree with. I'm not sure how else to say it. ID may not be what you think it is.

ID, as I understand it, is the theory that life on Earth is so complex and varied that it suggests that its progress was directed by some intelligent force. Which is all well and good, and an interesting discussion to be sure.

But it's hardly scientific. It is based purely on intuition and common sense, and is utterly untestable.

279 angst  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:44:42pm

re: #264 Agahnim

I think of Prions as zombie proteins, personally. =P

Do you mean zombie zombie or generic TV zombies?

280 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:45:10pm

re: #276 Nevergiveup

Is that a shot at my In-Laws?


So, what do the rings of Saturn look like close up? Got fotos from the last visit?

281 Cicero05  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:45:33pm

re: #277 Eowyn2

Did you ask her out because she was intelligent or because she had big tatas?

I'll just say she had a very intelligent "design."

282 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:45:37pm

re: #254 NoSubmission

As a fan of Street Art...do I have to do everything?

283 astronmr20  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:45:39pm

re: #270 saberry0530

Here's the link for the company that is making garbage eating, oil pooping bacteria.

CAN YA SPARE A FEW BUCKS FOR AN IPO, MISTA?

Bad idea, says me. Read "andromeda strain."

284 lostlakehiker  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:46:08pm

re: #8 frodolives

But it disconfirms ID. After all, what we see is that a new species has evolved. Just like that.

By any standard that would have been enunciated ahead of time, the bacteria that metabolize citrate are not e. coli.

285 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:46:34pm

re: #246 Charles

Why don't you just turn on the Wordpress registration feature?

To encourage more comments from random web surfers!

It only takes about 5 minutes every day or two to delete spam comments. The payoff is I get more real comments and more interactivity.

If it becomes too burdensome, I will indeed require Wordpress registration. For now, I'll give the "free market" a chance.

286 NoSubmission  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:46:40pm

re: #260 buzzsawmonkey
Thanks for the tip, btw. I'd been looking for something to shoot. Street art is so much easier than live moonbats in action.

287 FamHistoryGuy  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:46:50pm

re: #144 Buster Bunny

How old is the Earth? Something along the lines of 4 bil years? Lots of time for stuff to happen over and over and over. Plus galactic contamination.

288 Meremortal  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:47:03pm

re: #216 Shug

OT
Haditha marine preparing to sue traitor Murtha

Where do I send my donation for his legal fund? I hope this case "evolves" into a biggie.

See, not OT after all!

289 protestshooter  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:47:11pm

You guys do know that natural selection and evolution doesn't address biogenesis, right? Can't we all just be friends?

290 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:47:14pm

re: #287 FamHistoryGuy

How old is the Earth? Something along the lines of 4 bil years? Lots of time for stuff to happen over and over and over. Plus galactic contamination.

galactic contamination

291 Alouette  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:47:19pm

re: #233 Cicero05

I met a girl while dating once who told me that she was absolutely certain that evolution was wrong. The reason she was so sure was that if people really evolved from apes, she said, then today we would see chimpanzees occasionally giving birth to human babies. "And that's never happened."

That was our last date.

But occasionally you do see humans give birth to chimpanzees (who then go on to be elected to public office!)

/going to hide now

292 NoSubmission  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:47:34pm

re: #282 WrathofG-d

As a fan of Street Art...do I have to do everything?


I guess there's not Hillary street art. No towering offward glances.

293 protestshooter  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:47:42pm

re: #285 zombie

To encourage more comments from random web surfers!

It only takes about 5 minutes every day or two to delete spam comments. The payoff is I get more real comments and more interactivity.

If it becomes too burdensome, I will indeed require Wordpress registration. For now, I'll give the "free market" a chance.

Wait until you see what happens when you go on vacation!

294 nyc redneck  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:47:45pm

re: #261 ploome hineni

i'm not much of a typist either.
lol

295 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:48:09pm

re: #249 angst

It doesn't need will. The ones that survive better get to reproduce, it's that simple. The E. coli that happened to have a random mutation to metabolize citrate dramatically expanded their population because they was a new energy source to exploit, and there was no competition for it.

Do this in reverse, say with penicillin, and the ones that survive the drug will all have the DNA for penicillinase, an enzyme that destroys penicillin. Then their population will explode because the germs without penicillinase will have perished, reducing the competition.

The mechanism is natural selection.

Can I have your test-tube baby? Let's make monkeys together!

Seriously: Thanks for laying it out so clearly.

296 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:48:41pm

re: #291 Alouette

But occasionally you do see humans give birth to chimpanzees (who then go on to be elected to public office!)

/going to hide now

I believe you have mistaken chimps for horse's asses.

297 jc59  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:48:48pm

It's interesting what constitutes a new "species" in the context of evolution. Minute differences in the ability to metabolize some nutrients means different species, huh?

It turns out that there are differences between human races in the ability to metabolize alcohol. Does this mean Orientals and Caucasians are a different species? Of course not, silly.

"Most biochemical investigations of the flushing phenomenon have focused on aspects of alcohol metabolism. Based on recent findings, a convincing mechanism is the higher accumulation of acetaldehyde in flushing subjects because they have an unusual, less-active liver aldehyde dehydrogenase isozyme (ALDHI). The possibility that an ‘atypical’ alcohol dehydrogenase, which is present in 85–90% of Oriental subjects, can contribute to increased blood acetaldehyde levels in flushing subjects cannot be ruled out"

[Link: alcalc.oxfordjournals.org...]

298 Pshawalaw  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:48:54pm

This discussion continues to get bogged down because the distinction between creationism and intelligent design is blurred. Creationism is not the same as intelligent design.

Unlike creationism, the scientific theory of intelligent design does not claim that modern biology can identify whether the intelligent cause detected through science is supernatural.

Honest critics of intelligent design acknowledge the difference between intelligent design and creationism. University of Wisconsin historian of science Ronald Numbers is critical of intelligent design, yet according to the Associated Press, he "agrees the creationist label is inaccurate when it comes to the ID [intelligent design] movement.

Talk about an afterlife, or the origin of the universe, or any other "supernatural" aspects do not apply. There are three ideas being talked, and only two of them, evolution and intelligent design, are scientifically aligned. Creationism is not scientifically testable. The question isn't whether evolution is real, we have plenty of data to say it is, the question is whether intelligent design is a legitimate scientific pursuit or just another rhetorical alchemy, (i.e., BS).

299 HelloDare  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:49:07pm

Bacterial evolution is not news to me.

The E. Coli in my gut have organized and formed a union.

300 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:49:10pm

Off to lunch.

Bye for now

301 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:49:12pm
302 saberry0530  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:49:21pm

re: #283 astronmr20

Bad idea, says me. Read "andromeda strain."

WHatCHA got against new found areas for oil? You part DEMO?

/(DRIPPING WITH SARC)

303 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:49:22pm

re: #281 Cicero05

I'll just say she had a very intelligent "design."


So either she was intelligently designed in order to attract a mate or her antecedents evolved enough to get her past the introduction. Another 10,000 years and who knows, her descendants might make it to the first date:)

304 Pshawalaw  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:49:29pm

re: #230 astronmr20

YES!

WooHoo!

305 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:49:59pm

re: #292 NoSubmission


not necessarily true.

306 astronmr20  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:50:05pm

re: #302 saberry0530

WHatCHA got against new found areas for oil? You part DEMO?

/(DRIPPING WITH SARC)

You want plastic-eating microbes loose in the world?

307 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:50:28pm

re: #291 Alouette

But occasionally you do see humans give birth to chimpanzees (who then go on to be elected to public office!)

/going to hide now


It happens

308 Pshawalaw  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:50:41pm

re: #278 Pyroskank

Thanks, that is the clarity I was looking for.

309 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:50:52pm

re: #297 jc59

Dude, you should learn what a species is. It has a very clear definition that you should have learned in about 7th or 8th grade.

310 Luigi  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:51:02pm

Well done, Charles.

311 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:51:10pm
312 eastvillageinfidel  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:51:30pm

re: #306 astronmr20

Ooh, that sounds like it would make a great movie! :)

313 NoSubmission  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:51:31pm

re: #305 WrathofG-d


not necessarily true.


That's actually pretty cool!

314 Buster Bunny  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:51:48pm

re: #287 FamHistoryGuy

How old is the Earth? Something along the lines of 4 bil years? Lots of time for stuff to happen over and over and over. Plus galactic contamination.

Yup .. and thats the remarkable bit. The chances of running the same genetic program twice and coming up with a duplicate result are 10^300 in magnitude. Heck that makes the cipher that Microsoft used for identifying ActiveX components look primitive in comparison.

P.S. thats 10 with 300 zeros behind it .. a million is only 10^6

/Big Numbered Bunny

315 Pyroskank  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:51:57pm

re: #298 Pshawalaw

This discussion continues to get bogged down because the distinction between creationism and intelligent design is blurred. Creationism is not the same as intelligent design.

Talk about an afterlife, or the origin of the universe, or any other "supernatural" aspects do not apply. There are three ideas being talked, and only two of them, evolution and intelligent design, are scientifically aligned. Creationism is not scientifically testable. The question isn't whether evolution is real, we have plenty of data to say it is, the question is whether intelligent design is a legitimate scientific pursuit or just another rhetorical alchemy, (i.e., BS).

That's a partial definition of what ID isn't, but says very little about what it IS. Was my interpretation of ID's main thesis inaccurate in some way?

316 Pyroskank  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:52:32pm

Oops, nevermind. You guys is fast.

317 astronmr20  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:52:33pm

re: #312 eastvillageinfidel

They made one. Out of the book. Go rent Andromeda Strain.

Unless you are joking...

318 protestshooter  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:52:36pm

re: #297 jc59

It's interesting what constitutes a new "species" in the context of evolution. Minute differences in the ability to metabolize some nutrients means different species, huh?

It turns out that there are differences between human races in the ability to metabolize alcohol. Does this mean Orientals and Caucasians are a different species? Of course not, silly.

Do you seriously think this is a chain of logic to be taken seriously?

Bacteria like e. coli have zillions of "strains" and the difference between different "strains" and different "species" is fairly arbitrary. Perhaps now that these new ones have come along they'll change the definition. In the meantime it was a convenient heuristic.

The fact that they split fish into a zillion strains that are perfectly capable of hybridizing (they just don't get a chance because they're in a pond 10 feet over) but yet dogs are all one species shows how arbitrary this whole business is. If you want to have a meaningful debate about evolution you're going to have to stop fixating on the term.

319 angst  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:52:54pm

re: #273 zombie

I think Darwin posed the questions.
Mendel, Benzer, Leakey et al. came up with the answers.

320 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:53:06pm

re: #313 NoSubmission

yea, you will probably like Woostercollective.com, Banksy, Dan Witz, Fafi, Swoon, Shepard Farley, etc.

On that note....I'm out of LGF for a while.

321 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:54:00pm

re: #303 Eowyn2

So either she was intelligently designed in order to attract a mate or her antecedents evolved enough to get her past the introduction. Another 10,000 years and who knows, her descendants might make it to the first date:)

PIMF - PAST the first date

322 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:54:35pm

re: #258 Eowyn2

That wasnt very nice. There are people who deny evolution but the only people who are out there trying to tie every conservative into the 'right wing Judeo-Christian conservative nazi' camp are generally members of the left wing commie anarchist camp:)

Exactly. And, whether we like it or not, the "left wing commie anarchist camp" controls academia, the media, and social discourse in general. They have and will tar ALL conservatives and ALL Republicans with the "anti-science" sobriquet. And they will make sure it sticks.

Creationists are free to believe whatever they want to believe -- I have no dispute with freedom of thought or freedom of religion. But as a purely strategic maneuver, they need to realize that they are becoming a major embarrassment for the Republican Party, and they should stop pressing forward with this issue, because it will bring us all down. We have to spend WAY to much energy trying to get our act together, when we should be concentrating on battling the moonbats.

323 grumpy old codger  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:54:41pm

Wow! There is no real difficulty with working ID into the
Christian mind set. But, is the Big Liz disappointed?

324 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:54:48pm

Just who the hell is in charge over there?

"Top Defense Ministry official: If Shalit is not released, Rafah stays closed
Hours before ceasefire kicks in, Amos Gilad grants Ynet interview in which he stresses kidnapped soldier definitely part of truce agreement with Hamas. 'Ceasefire only way to bring about Shalit's release,' Gilad says"

325 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:54:49pm

re: #313 NoSubmission

did you get the car wash email?
natural selection at work

326 MellyMel  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:55:00pm

This topic always reminds me of a cartoon I saw a while back:

One black squirrel is talking to another. Both are looking at blacktop road with a yellow line down the middle and the first one says to the other "Geez, what's next, a yellow line?"

327 angst  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:55:22pm

re: #295 zombie

Can I have your test-tube baby? Let's make monkeys together!

Seriously: Thanks for laying it out so clearly.

If you knew my monkeys, you'd rescind your offer! But, thanks, seriously.

328 eastvillageinfidel  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:55:35pm

re: #317 astronmr20

I wasn't joking. And i did see see the Andromeda Strain a long time ago. I guess I forgot the plastic eating bit.

329 Buster Bunny  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:55:39pm

ok .. well .. after a heaped discussion .. i'm evolving back to the primordial economic soup that pays my bills.

Time to get back on the horse.

Lovely chat guys

/Byebye Bunny

330 A.W.  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:55:58pm

I think there is no denhing that evolution is occuring now. Whether it is an origin or not is just a logical surmise. if you have faith, of course you can deny it, but that is not science.

That said, while i don't think the case has yet been made for ID, i say in the universities we should be open to any idea.

Finally, I will say this at the same time. There is equally no doubt that darwinism contributed to eugenics. Which is not an argument against evolution, btw. It is merely a warning from history not to be fool enough to think you can give evolution a hand. Eugenics is a misapplication of darwinian thought, and thus the result of evolution as much as the crusades were the result of christianity, even as first crusaders violated every principle of christianity. And if islamofascism is a misapplication of islam, then you can't deny that islam is an essential element of it.

331 NoSubmission  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:56:00pm

re: #325 Eowyn2

did you get the car wash email?
natural selection at work


Oh YEA!

332 protestshooter  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:56:53pm

re: #322 zombie

But as a purely strategic maneuver, they need to realize that they are becoming a major embarrassment for the Republican Party, and they should stop pressing forward with this issue, because it will bring us all down. We have to spend WAY to much energy trying to get our act together, when we should be concentrating on battling the moonbats.

This kind of thing is one of the things that greatly slowed me down from switching camps. There's a lot of really scary fuzzy thinking with the religious right.

333 brickthruplateglasswindow  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:57:07pm

re: #306 astronmr20

You want plastic-eating microbes loose in the world?

Maybe they can design some pill bottle child safety top only bacteria?

334 astronmr20  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:58:22pm

re: #328 eastvillageinfidel

Ahhh sorrie. (:

Yes.. it started mutating rapidly and one of the strains eats plastic. Was bad news for a jet pilot...

335 Pshawalaw  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:58:25pm

re: #315 Pyroskank

That's a partial definition of what ID isn't, but says very little about what it IS. Was my interpretation of ID's main thesis inaccurate in some way?

I'm no expert on ID, just getting a grip on this new idea,, that is why I asked if it isn't different from creationism. And, my education on what ID is and isn't is really confined to the first page I linked, they seem to be attempting to create a new science.

336 theparson  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:58:37pm

If you could prove beyond any doubt that ID is exactly how the universe came into being there would be many who would not believe.

And,

If you could prove beyond any doubt that Evolution is how the universe came into being there would be many who would not believe.

I passionately believe what I believe about the origins of all things. But, I do not insist that you believe as I believe.

Goodnight, and have a pleasant tomorrow!

337 Agahnim  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:58:45pm

re: #279 angst

Do you mean zombie zombie or generic TV zombies?

Generic TV zombies. From what I've been taught, they have a huge denaturation point so you can't burn them like normal proteins, and they infect the regular proteins to become like them (zombie immortality and zombie bites!)

338 jc59  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:59:03pm

re: #309 Killgore Trout

Maybe if you had gone beyond the 8th grade you would know what I was talking about.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

339 NoSubmission  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:59:15pm

Gotta run. Gn'ite lizards! Play nice.

340 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:59:48pm
341 beachkatie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:59:52pm

re: #123 Buster Bunny

Remember G_d took rib from adam to make Eve!

342 protestshooter  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:00:26pm

re: #339 NoSubmission

Gotta run. Gn'ite lizards! Play nice.

g'night!

343 mean Gene  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:00:57pm

I am not going to play unless we all stipulate to the exact same definitions of all the various terms:

Evolution
Intelligent design
(others?)

Both those terms mean so many different things to posters here.
How can we have a real conversation, much less an honest debate when we don't agree on definitions.
(It's not like we don't have an "LGF Dictionary" you know?)

344 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:01:07pm

re: #322 zombie

I agree, to a point. We dont need to be anti-science but I cannot hide my beliefs behind closed doors. Sadly, the extreme left holds events strictly to bring out a response from average Christians and Jews. Like Fulsom street fair you attended not too long ago (what kind of body soap do you use after something like that and does it work?)

Well gotta go to work.

345 Pshawalaw  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:01:13pm

re: #336 theparson

ID is a third choice from the two ideas you present; it isn't creationism, nor is it evolution. It is a new formulation.

346 right_on_target  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:02:05pm

re: #188 WrathofG-d

I guess Olmert never read about the Trojan horse.

Trojan Horse? They'll bring in the WHOLE herd.

347 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:02:14pm

re: #330 A.W.

That said, while i don't think the case has yet been made for ID, i say in the universities we should be open to any idea.

You do? OK, would you support teaching in a Fluid Dynamics class that heat is a substance call "caloric" that has negative weight? Should we teach that fire is caused by phlogiston? How about Ptolemaic cycloids as the explantion for the orbits of the planets?

Good plan. Let's just open up the universities to any idea.

I'm signing my kid up for "1+1=3: Deconstructing Math Through Postmodern Critical Thinking."

348 jc59  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:02:43pm

re: #340 buzzsawmonkey

349 angst  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:02:44pm

re: #317 astronmr20

They made one. Out of the book. Go rent Andromeda Strain.

Unless you are joking...

I was just going to recommend that book! That's a perfect example of an organism that acquires a helpful mutation and then explodes to fill an empty niche. Notice also how it has to "balance" its deadliness with survival. Bacteria are much more successful if they don't kill off their hosts.

Very deadly germs are very unsuccessful, evolutionarily speaking. Successful germs like Lactobacillus acidophilus are everywhere because they don't make us sick, thus we spread them around and don't try to kill them off.

350 experiencedtraveller  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:02:45pm

It would be interesting to know the statistics for this 'type' of thread.

Does LGF get more visits or less? More comments or less?

If the goal is to attract debate it would seem to be a very successful subject.

351 Pshawalaw  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:02:55pm

re: #343 mean Gene

I am not going to play unless we all stipulate to the exact same definitions of all the various terms:

Evolution
Intelligent design
(others?)

Both those terms mean so many different things to posters here.
How can we have a real conversation, much less an honest debate when we don't agree on definitions.
(It's not like we don't have an "LGF Dictionary" you know?)

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! My position exactly.

352 JCM  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:03:23pm
353 angst  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:04:25pm

re: #337 Agahnim

Generic TV zombies. From what I've been taught, they have a huge denaturation point so you can't burn them like normal proteins, and they infect the regular proteins to become like them (zombie immortality and zombie bites!)

Then prions are excellent zombies. In fact, just like zombies they are the borderline between living things and non-living things.

354 Yankee Division Son  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:04:36pm

re: #347 zombie

Good plan. Let's just open up the universities to any idea.

I'm signing my kid up for "1+1=3: Deconstructing Math Through Postmodern Critical Thinking."

So that's where Obama learned about the 57 United States

355 Pshawalaw  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:04:40pm

re: #352 JCM

Where do you people find these things, roflmao.

356 lostlakehiker  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:04:50pm

re: #86 schneidballs

You turn the meaning of the word `evolution' on its head, and offer a new and different definition. No fair. No fair redefining a word, so as to confuse the debate.

Evolution, as a word, refers to changes in a population genome that have consequences for the population phenotype, and that are adaptive.

That is just what happened here. The new species, e. coli-citrateeatingii, say, has a different genome. The different genes code up a different bug with different biochemistry, and the new bug can eat citrate.

Now whether that happened as a result of introducing new genes so that the new species has more DNA than the old, or as the result of swapping around some of the code that was already there, or even as a result of deleting some genes that had had the effect of interfering with citrate metabolism, is beside the point. Quite possibly, e-coli-eatii is less well adapted to the human gut than e-coli-control-natural. But it's better adapted to the lab environment it's been living in. It has evolved.

Take an analogy. Suppose I tear out some pages of a book on chess openings having to do with opening Pawn to King Knight 4. I replace it with the simple instruction to not make this move; it loses.

My book is shorter. It's also better. Persons following the book will win more often following my new book than they did following my old book.

If chess books were like evolution, nobody would write them. We'd just have computers using opening books and playing, and the losers would be erased and the winners duplicated, together with their opening books. And then we'd "mutate" their opening books a little by occasionally adding instructions at random, or deleting a few. This oversimplifies, because there's also sex and gene swapping and all that. But still. Doesn't it stand to reason that the chess books would improve over time, and the chess programs? The random mutations in their opening books are random. But which random mutations survive is NOT random. Mutations that instruct the chess robot to start out with P-KN4 and follow with P-KB3 DIE, because the opposing computer will checkmate them on move 2. That's not random. Bad moves die, good moves live. The intelligent designer is either this reality, or the clever programmer who found a way to get the programs to improve themselves over time. Nobody is directly writing the opening books, using intelligence and forethought to put in good moves. Not in this scenario.

357 Pshawalaw  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:05:33pm

gonna run, Bill O' is on. goodnite lizards

358 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:06:00pm

re: #332 protestshooter

This kind of thing is one of the things that greatly slowed me down from switching camps. There's a lot of really scary fuzzy thinking with the religious right.

EXACTLY! And there are 10 million, 20 million other voters exactly like you who simply have been scared away from switching by creationists and other extremists demanding a place at the table in the conservative camp.

If we could get them to switch, we could break the political back of moonbattism forever. And the only way we're going to get them to switch is to make "neo-conservatism" appear to be free from the trappings of 19th century thought.

359 nyc redneck  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:07:43pm

re: #340 buzzsawmonkey

It appears that ID advocates will reject evolution as "not proven" on the grounds that evolution "cannot be shown to occur under laboratory conditions"--thereby attempting to use scientific criteria in an effort to subvert science, in much the same way as CAIR uses the commitment to free speech to subvert free speech.

When, however, as here, evolution is demonstrated under laboratory conditions, ID advocates will move the goalposts on the grounds that the evolutionary activity shown is done with microcellular organisms instead of complex vertebrates.

are you channeling michelle o.?
she always complains abt. how "they always raise the bar. . . "

360 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:08:39pm

Did I say Evolution?

Transgender activists remove clothing in public
'We're going to see this all over the nation. This was a trial balloon'

[Link: worldnetdaily.com...]

361 rawmuse  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:09:33pm

re: #332 protestshooter

This kind of thing is one of the things that greatly slowed me down from switching camps. There's a lot of really scary fuzzy thinking with the religious right.

True, but no party has a monopoly on fuzzy thinking, trust me on that one.

362 aidos  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:10:12pm

Wake me when the coli starts crawling out of the petri dish, eating bananas, and swinging around the rafters of the lab.

363 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:10:49pm
364 JCM  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:11:02pm

re: #355 Pshawalaw

Where do you people find these things, roflmao.

They have the best theory on Global Warming too.

365 protestshooter  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:11:07pm

re: #358 zombie

EXACTLY! And there are 10 million, 20 million other voters exactly like you who simply have been scared away from switching by creationists and other extremists demanding a place at the table in the conservative camp.

I suspect you're right. And I'll go so far as to say that if the dems convince me they're not going to get us all killed I'll probably go back to voting democrat in most elections. (I'm pretty much a 9/11 Republican although if the right showed some fiscal conservatism that would help too).

Oh - good luck with the oaks thing if you make it back there again. They were getting very, very wild today. Frankly I think RunningWolf was drunk - he was swearing up a storm at the police. I don't think I'll be able to drop by again tomorrow but we'll see.

(today's pictures/video [Link: www.protestshooter.com...] )

366 protestshooter  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:11:55pm

re: #361 rawmuse

True, but no party has a monopoly on fuzzy thinking, trust me on that one.

I'm going to assume here you've never seen my website. I might have seen a moonbat or two in my time.

367 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:11:59pm

re: #360 Nevergiveup

Did I say Evolution?

Transgender activists remove clothing in public
'We're going to see this all over the nation. This was a trial balloon'

[Link: worldnetdaily.com...]

That's been going on in San Francisco for years already. Apparently you missed my report on the Trans March 2007.

Topless transsexuals and a whole lot more.

368 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:12:43pm

re: #362 aidos

Wake me when the coli starts crawling out of the petri dish, eating bananas, and swinging around the rafters of the lab.

That already happened. It's called "life on earth."

369 Dar ul Harb  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:13:19pm

re: #253 Agahnim

[T]his cell likely went through a heck of a lot of substitution mutations to create the enzyme that allows it to metabolize citrate.

E. Coli has the ability to metabolise lactose in environments with limited glucose (this is the environment the mutation occured in) so perhaps a mutation occured in this pathway?

Right, it'd be interesting to know what existing enzymes were adapted for the citrate pathway. From the standpoint of bacterial evolution, the enzymes that produced the citrate-metabolizing pathways were likely already being used for something else. Under the pressure of mutation, useless structures or functions tend not to be conserved (think about the blind fish in the cave), because there's no selective advantage in preserving them, and a resource penalty for maintaining them.

370 theatheistjew  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:13:21pm

Kudos to LGF for posting this. I'm kind of surprised because LGF probably has a lot of Young Earth Creationists who are regulars here.
Secondly, I'm surprised that most of the comments are done by those who accept evolution and all the overwhelming evidence for it.
Thirdly, I thought this story would show up on my blog before LGF showed it.

It is good to see the rational right emerging.

371 Render  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:13:55pm

You’re disgusted with the GOP for giving us such a “crappy” candidate?

You think that your little political issues are more important than winning this war?

So you’re going to send the GOP a “message” by not voting in this election?

Your null vote is a vote for Obama and the DNC.

The same Obama that said this...

"I'm the only major candidate who opposed this war from the beginning; and as president, I will end it.

"Second, I will cut tens of billions of dollars in wasteful spending. I will cut investments in unproven missile defense systems. I will not weaponize space. I will slow our development of future combat systems.

"I will institute an independent defense priorities board to ensure that the Quadrennial Review is not used to justify unnecessary defense spending.

"Third, I will set a goal for a world without nuclear weapons. To seek that goal, I will not develop nuclear weapons; I will seek a global ban on the production of fissile material; and I will negotiate with Russia to take our ICBMs off hair-trigger alert, and to achieve deep cuts in our nuclear arsenal."

[Link: www.ibdeditorials.com...]

Obama did not say “win” this war he clearly said “end it.”

In war the only opposite of the word “win” is “lose” because a draw is only a postponement.

An Obama who has said this repeatedly...

“Bringing Our Troops Home

Obama will immediately begin to remove our troops from Iraq. He will remove one to two combat brigades each month, and have all of our combat brigades out of Iraq within 16 months. Obama will make it clear that we will not build any permanent bases in Iraq. He will keep some troops in Iraq to protect our embassy and diplomats; if al Qaeda attempts to build a base within Iraq, he will keep troops in Iraq or elsewhere in the region to carry out targeted strikes on al Qaeda.”

[Link: www.barackobama.com...]

As if a crushed and rapidly dissolving al Qaeda in Iraq was Iraq’s only problem in the post Saddam world. What message does this send to those nations, (Turkey, Qatar, and Djibouti), in that region that already have large US bases? What happens 15 months later to the last one or two US brigades in Iraq as the resurgent Iranian trained, supplied, and led Shia militias close down Iraq’s only ports of access to the sea? What happens to the US allied Iraqi military when they are cut off from their American sources of supply?

What message has Obama sent to the enemy by revealing his timetable like this? Not just to the enemy who now knows that if Obama is elected they only have to wait 16 months to retake all that they have lost over the last eight years. Not just to those nations in the region still sitting on the fence, what has Obama’s 16 months until enemy victory message sent to to our tenuous allies in the region?

And you think you’re sending a message to the GOP by not pulling the right lever?

[Link: www.ford.utexas.edu...]

I can’t hear your message, it’s drowned out by other messages.

THAT’S
THE
WAY,
R

372 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:14:35pm

re: #367 zombie

That's been going on in San Francisco for years already. Apparently you missed my report on the Trans March 2007.

Topless transsexuals and a whole lot more.

I may have subconsciously blocked it out for reasons of sanity!

373 protestshooter  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:14:47pm

re: #370 theatheistjew

Kudos to LGF for posting this. I'm kind of surprised because LGF probably has a lot of Young Earth Creationists who are regulars here.

One of the things I like about LGF is the crowd in the comments isn't what you would assume. I wish I had more time to spend here.

Speaking of which - gotta go - have fun everybody!

374 Ojoe  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:15:12pm
375 EC Marm  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:15:37pm

re: #322 zombie

But as a purely strategic maneuver, they need to realize that they are becoming a major embarrassment for the Republican Party, and they should stop pressing forward with this issue, because it will bring us all down. We have to spend WAY to much energy trying to get our act together, when we should be concentrating on battling the moonbats.


I spent a couple of days the past weekend speaking with a moonbat (relative by marriage). There really is no need to attempt to change the point of view of those folks. It won't happen, no matter how much logic is used against them. The use no reason to settle on their thought processes and no amount of reason will change their point of view. From the history of Israel to the Holocaust, to Ron Paul, to Barack Obama, to exploring and exploiting this countries own energy resources, they are totally dependent on others to formulate their opinions for them. It is truly sad and disheartening, but true. It is a battle which can not be won.
Signed,
Dis &hearts ened

376 loflyer  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:16:00pm

re: #362 aidos

Wake me when the coli starts crawling out of the petri dish, eating bananas, and swinging around the rafters of the lab.

Exactly, when scientists have microbes turning our sewage into oil, then you might perk my interest. Watching 40,000 generations X 12 microbes has got to have sidelined a promising undergraduate or two...

377 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:16:08pm

re: #65 JohnH

I do not know a single creationist who would have any problems with what occurred.

I will observe that if it took 31,500 generations for what appears to be one change to occur in a protected environment, extrapolating this to humans and assuming a generation averages 20 years, this one change would take 630,000 years.

'Jes sayin'......

A mere blink in the geologic eye. 630,000 years is the time between Yellowstone eruptions, barely enough time to be recorded into stone.

378 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:16:16pm

re: #365 protestshooter

I won't be able to make it today.

Truth is, I don't care fiddle, I don't care a fig about this stupid oak tree protest. I only cover it because everyone else is interested!

379 ornery elephant  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:16:17pm

re: #358 zombie

EXACTLY! And there are 10 million, 20 million other voters exactly like you who simply have been scared away from switching by creationists and other extremists demanding a place at the table in the conservative camp.

If we could get them to switch, we could break the political back of moonbattism forever. And the only way we're going to get them to switch is to make "neo-conservatism" appear to be free from the trappings of 19th century thought.

zombie, are you actually calling creationists "extremists"? Did I misunderstand that?

Also, I think the place mats at the table of the conservative camp still have placemats that read "One Nation Under G_d"

380 rawmuse  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:16:22pm

re: #366 protestshooter

Yes, I am very familiar with your work, and have heard you interviewed on KSFO. Good on ya!

381 Geepers  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:16:37pm

theatheistjew says:

I'm kind of surprised because LGF probably has a lot of Young Earth Creationists who are regulars here.

And you would know this how?

382 Ojoe  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:16:49pm

re: #371 Render

With Obama's approach our enemies will eventually become our overlords.

383 VegasRick  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:16:59pm

re: #367 zombie

That's been going on in San Francisco for years already. Apparently you missed my report on the Trans March 2007.

Topless transsexuals and a whole lot more.

What is it with these lunatics that they never spell the word "Too" properly?

384 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:18:09pm

re: #371 Render

I think you might have posted this in the wrong thread, but I'm dinging you up anyway.

385 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:20:30pm

re: #384 Charles

I think you might have posted this in the wrong thread, but I'm dinging you up anyway.

That posting can never be wrong!

386 JCM  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:20:41pm

re: #371 Render

Damn the one d+ng limit!

Peta-d+ngs!

387 Render  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:20:43pm

re: #384 Charles

I couldn't figure out which thread to post it in, there's so many...

THANK
YOU,
R

388 Dan G.  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:21:07pm

re: #140 angst

Iodine (betadine) will deactive prions.

389 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:21:37pm

Heh. I'm just watching the spy, and noticing how much more rating is going on these days.

More than a few people really hated this idea, and bashed me quite severely for adding it to LGF. But it seems to be getting quite popular.

I must have ... wait for it ... designed it intelligently.

Ba da bump.

390 Ringo the Gringo  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:21:37pm

I'm curious: Is there anyone here that believes in literal, biblical creationism?....(7 days, "let there be light", 4000 year old earth, etc)

391 JCM  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:22:17pm

re: #388 Dan G.

Iodine (betadine) will deactive prions.

Are you advocating prionicide?
Is that legal in all 57 States?
/

392 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:22:19pm

re: #387 Render

I couldn't figure out which thread to post it in, there's so many...

THANK
YOU,
R

Just keep posting it in every thread between now and November 4th. And twice on Sundays.

393 angst  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:22:22pm

re: #201 Eowyn2

could explain the angst.

Yes, it certainly could.

394 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:22:27pm

re: #379 ornery elephant

zombie, are you actually calling creationists "extremists"? Did I misunderstand that?

No, you didn't misunderstand. I wasn't aware that was a controversial opinion.

Also, I think the place mats at the table of the conservative camp still have placemats that read "One Nation Under G_d"

And your point is...?

You aren't one of those people who thinks that by accepting scientific reality you must then necessarily deny the existence of God, are you?

395 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:22:52pm

re: #390 Ringo the Gringo

I'm curious: Is there anyone here that believes in literal, biblical creationism?....(7 days, "let there be light", 4000 year old earth, etc)

Yes, there are absolutely a few of those around. They've been posting in the ID threads.

396 unclassifiable  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:23:07pm

re: #389 Charles

I think it evolved from the original banishment stick.

397 kenneth  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:23:45pm

re: #178 Charles

One of my favorite cultural events ever. The Sokal Affair is a watershed event that exposed the idiocy & fraus at the heart of post-modern philosophy.

The Sokal affair (also Sokal's hoax) was a hoax by physicist Alan Sokal perpetrated on the editorial staff and readership of the postmodern cultural studies journal Social Text (published by Duke University). In 1996, Sokal, a professor of physics at New York University, submitted a paper of nonsense camouflaged in jargon for publication in Social Text, as an experiment to see if a journal in that field would, in Sokal's words: "publish an article liberally salted with nonsense if (a) it sounded good and (b) it flattered the editors' ideological preconceptions."[1]

The paper, titled "Transgressing the Boundaries: Towards a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity"[2], was published in the Spring/Summer 1996 "Science Wars" issue of Social Text, which at that time had no peer review process, and so did not submit it for outside review. On the day of its publication, Sokal announced in another publication, Lingua Franca, that the article was a hoax, calling his paper "a pastiche of left-wing cant, fawning references, grandiose quotations, and outright nonsense", which was "structured around the silliest quotations I could find about mathematics and physics" made by postmodernist academics.


I have wondered if a similar hoax can be perpetrated on Global Warming...hmmmm...

398 tokyobk  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:23:57pm

re: #382 Ojoe

With Obama's approach our enemies will eventually become our overlords.

Hi Ojoe, did you catch Obama`s father`s day speech? I was once talking to you about his "Cosby" speeches to black audiences. That`s what I meant and its not suprising he is rolling that out for a larger audience in a move right for the general election.

399 mean Gene  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:24:05pm

re: #388 Dan G.

Iodine (betadine) will deactive prions.

Doesn't that really taint the flavor of the beef/venison/lamb though?
;)

400 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:24:26pm

re: #332 protestshooter

This kind of thing is one of the things that greatly slowed me down from switching camps. There's a lot of really scary fuzzy thinking with the religious right.

Between this and the really scary fuzzy thinking of the left, I've usually stayed away from both camps. Not fond of the YECs who want ID or whatever they brand Biblical 6-Day creationism as in the schools, and not fond of the wacky left for too many reasons to list here. (Believe me, Charles has not the characters in this box to list my reasons for why I don't like the wacky left.)

Oddly, I find the thinking of both camps (YEC and the left) to be similar, having experienced the blunt end of both.

BTW, I just found out today I passed my professional engineering exam. Now I am a lisenced professional engineer in my state.
Honorary Yooper, PE :-)

401 theatheistjew  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:24:36pm

Geepers, I guess I'm assuming. This is a right wing blog, and many right wingers do not accept evolution.
45% of Americans believe the earth is less than 10,000 years old and reject evolution. A higher percentage of Repubs are in that camp by a mile, while Democrats tend to accept real science more readily.

402 Wookieelips  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:24:57pm

re: #371 Render


Thank you for that.

The people in danger over there after Obama's would-be disastrous withdrawel would be my friends and the man I love.

I'd much rather have him over there with a strong military presence that would make everyone more secure than have him sent on some "targeted strike" where our guys could be ambushed or shot down.

I appreciate you pointing these things out to those who are thinking of sitting this election out.

403 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:24:58pm

I believe in coyotes and time as an abstract

404 angst  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:25:55pm

re: #388 Dan G.

Iodine (betadine) will deactive prions.

That is good to know. I wish there were a way to turn that knowledge into something practical to control prion disease in wild animals. I don't like to eat game anymore because of it. I certainly would never eat "wild" game off of a restaurant menu, since game farms are the epicenter of prion disease (in the US, that is).

405 experiencedtraveller  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:26:30pm

re: #401 theatheistjew

Geepers, I guess I'm assuming. This is a right wing blog, and many right wingers do not accept evolution.
45% of Americans believe the earth is less than 10,000 years old and reject evolution. A higher percentage of Repubs are in that camp by a mile, while Democrats tend to accept real science more readily.

Linky?

406 unclassifiable  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:26:35pm

re: #400 Honorary Yooper

Congratulations!

407 goddessoftheclassroom  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:26:36pm

re: #400 Honorary Yooper

Congratulations!

408 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:27:07pm

re: #401 theatheistjew

Geepers, I guess I'm assuming. This is a right wing blog, and many right wingers do not accept evolution.
45% of Americans believe the earth is less than 10,000 years old and reject evolution. A higher percentage of Repubs are in that camp by a mile, while Democrats tend to accept real science more readily.

I'd wager that 70% of Americans don't know the first thing about science or history and only believe what the media indoctrinates them to believe.

409 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:27:13pm

re: #390 Ringo the Gringo

I'm curious: Is there anyone here that believes in literal, biblical creationism?....(7 days, "let there be light", 4000 year old earth, etc)

In fact, they've been dinging down this very thread.

410 Hanoch  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:27:15pm

Charles:

I have to take issue with your post at #37--I think you are missing the point.

The primary bone of contention in all of this is the proposition that human beings evolved from a lower life form. This theory is not provable using the scientific method, i.e., you cannot go into a lab, control for certain variables, and test the theory by turning a chimp into a human being (if you want to try, be my guest). Undoubtedly, you can look at bits of physical evidence (such as your bacteria) and draw certain inferences, but that is a far cry from saying the theory of evolution can be falsified by testing it. The theory of ID is conceptually no different from the theory of evolution: it looks at evidence and, using logical precepts (e.g., that something does not arise from nothing), posits that the world must have had an original source, i.e., a creator. (And, by the way, the two theories are not necessarily inconsistent--there is, in principle, no reason why a creator could not have employed a process of evolution.)

The problem I have with the evolution proponents is that they attempt to elevate the evolution theory over the ID theory on the basis that the evolution theory is qualitatively different, which it is not. For reasons that are not clear to me, they seem to dogmatically accept the theory of evolution as if it were fact. Yet there are innumerable other theories based on incomplete evidence which we do not rush to label as fact. For example, there are those who contend that the dinosaurs were killed by a meteor collision with earth. There is evidence for that, but it is still a theory because it cannot be proven.

411 tokyobk  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:27:45pm

re: #401 theatheistjew

Geepers, I guess I'm assuming. This is a right wing blog, and many right wingers do not accept evolution.

I think of LGF as a safe haven for talking about the real news without MSM spin, not so much "right wing."

412 jc59  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:27:54pm

ID and creationism are not synonymous. In its "weakest" form, ID does not even deny evolution.

413 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:28:15pm

re: #397 kenneth

I found this the other day: Chicken chicken chicken

Be sure to follow along with the charts and graphs here

414 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:28:15pm
415 Dan G.  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:28:21pm

re: #229 astronmr20

Look up aptamers.

416 ornery elephant  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:28:25pm

re: #394 zombie

And your point is...?

My point? Not really a point, just an observation that I'm not sure you and me are looking at the same conservative camp.

And I'm just one of those people that doesn't view a person who believes in Creationism as an extremist.

417 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:28:25pm

re: #406 unclassifiable

re: #407 goddessoftheclassroom

Yeah, now I need new business cards. :-D

418 unclassifiable  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:28:40pm

re: #401 theatheistjew

You are going to get a real shock if you ever step into the lounge.

Maybe you need to rethink where the real diversity is.

419 theatheistjew  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:28:41pm

Anyone who really doesn't understand science, the age of the earth, abiogenesis, and evolution need to watch Potholer54's videos on Youtube with an open mind.
He has a bit of a sense of humour too. And he explains things so that a 10 year old could understand.

420 eastvillageinfidel  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:28:48pm

re: #401 theatheistjew

45% ? That sounds off.

421 loflyer  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:28:52pm

re: #407 goddessoftheclassroom

Congratulations!

Congrats Yooper, what is your field?

422 NonNativeTexan  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:29:18pm

#390 Ringo
Not I

423 Geepers  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:29:40pm

theatheistjew says:

45% of Americans believe the earth is less than 10,000 years old and reject evolution. A higher percentage of Repubs are in that camp by a mile, while Democrats tend to accept real science more readily.

I know you've got links to back up all those contentions, right?

424 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:29:54pm

re: #404 angst

That is good to know. I wish there were a way to turn that knowledge into something practical to control prion disease in wild animals. I don't like to eat game anymore because of it. I certainly would never eat "wild" game off of a restaurant menu, since game farms are the epicenter of prion disease (in the US, that is).

I was in England during the first outbreak of Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, in the early '90s. Scary as hell. That's one of the things that convinced me to stay a vegetarian forever. (I was merely a fledgling vegetarian back then.)

Them prions is nasty business.

425 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:30:00pm

re: #400 Honorary Yooper

BTW, I just found out today I passed my professional engineering exam. Now I am a lisenced professional engineer in my state.
Honorary Yooper, PE :-)

Congratulations.

Governor Granholm says in 5 years we're gonna be blown away. make it happen

426 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:30:06pm

re: #421 loflyer

Congrats Yooper, what is your field?

Environmental engineering. I got my degree in geological engineering.

427 goddessoftheclassroom  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:30:24pm

re: #408 zombie

I'd wager that 70% of Americans don't know the first thing about science or history and only believe what the media indoctrinates them to believe.

I think you're correct.

When one of my junior high students parrots something I know to be slanted, I ask, "How do you know that? Cite your source."

The saddest part of all is that I'd better even more than 70% care about learning at all. Comfort, entertainment, and instant gratification diminish intellectual curiosity in many.

428 theparson  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:30:26pm

re: #390 Ringo the Gringo

Interesting question. It is my understanding, though I'm no scholar on the Hebrew language, that the original word for "day" means a period of time, not necessarily as we understand the 24 hour period. Any language scholars here?

429 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:31:10pm

re: #425 Shug

Congratulations.

Governor Granholm says in 5 years we're gonna be blown away. make it happen

Well, if I'm ever lucky enough to return, I hope she's blown out of office long before then.

Thanks.

430 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:31:18pm

re: #410 Hanoch

Bishop Wilberforce, is that you?

431 JCM  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:31:29pm

re: #413 Killgore Trout

I found this the other day: Chicken chicken chicken

Be sure to follow along with the charts and graphs here

Fried?

432 Three Hundred  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:31:33pm

re: #384 Charles
RE: #371 Render

I think you might have posted this in the wrong thread, but I'm dinging you up anyway.

That would be the Render Hammer Thread.

433 EC Marm  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:31:37pm

re: #347 zombie

I'm signing my kid up for "1+1=3: Deconstructing Math Through Postmodern Critical Thinking."


Many, many years ago I wrote a compiled Cobol program for my son to use. Very professional looking calculator program. However, in the code that was invisible to him, I had intentionally added (+1) to the results of every addition problem. So 1 + 1 actually did return three. I'm pretty sure he got the point, as he is just a few tad credits short of a doctorate in computer science (or EE) now.

434 freetoken  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:31:49pm

re: #390 Ringo the Gringo

I'm curious: Is there anyone here that believes in literal, biblical creationism?....(7 days, "let there be light", 4000 year old earth, etc)

Technically speaking, the Ussherites believe the Earth to be circa 6012 years old (created in 4004 BC).

435 Boogberg  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:31:49pm

re: #350 experiencedtraveller