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Science: Bacterial Evolution Observed in Laboratory

Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 3:42:47 pm PDT

In an experiment that has been underway for 20 years at Michigan State University, biologist Richard Lenski has actually observed evolution at work in E. Coli bacteria.

A major evolutionary innovation has unfurled right in front of researchers’ eyes. It’s the first time evolution has been caught in the act of making such a rare and complex new trait.

And because the species in question is a bacterium, scientists have been able to replay history to show how this evolutionary novelty grew from the accumulation of unpredictable, chance events.

Twenty years ago, evolutionary biologist Richard Lenski of Michigan State University in East Lansing, US, took a single Escherichia coli bacterium and used its descendants to found 12 laboratory populations. The 12 have been growing ever since, gradually accumulating mutations and evolving for more than 44,000 generations, while Lenski watches what happens.

Mostly, the patterns Lenski saw were similar in each separate population. All 12 evolved larger cells, for example, as well as faster growth rates on the glucose they were fed, and lower peak population densities.

But sometime around the 31,500th generation, something dramatic happened in just one of the populations – the bacteria suddenly acquired the ability to metabolise citrate, a second nutrient in their culture medium that E. coli normally cannot use.

Indeed, the inability to use citrate is one of the traits by which bacteriologists distinguish E. coli from other species. The citrate-using mutants increased in population size and diversity.

“It’s the most profound change we have seen during the experiment. This was clearly something quite different for them, and it’s outside what was normally considered the bounds of E. coli as a species, which makes it especially interesting,” says Lenski.

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1750 comments

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1 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:44:48pm

This again?

bee in someones bonnet?

2 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:45:19pm
3 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:45:34pm
it’s outside what was normally considered the bounds of E. coli as a species, which makes it especially interesting

you should get out more often

4 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:45:53pm

re: #1 WrathofG-d

This again?

bee in someones bonnet?

Uh no. It's an article on a scientific subject that I happen to be interested in.

5 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:46:01pm
The citrate-using mutants increased in population size and diversity.

change !

6 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:46:33pm

it stands to reason that in 32,500 generations, humans will loose the need for toes.

7 GregInSeattle  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:46:40pm

Yes, God uses evolution.

8 frodolives  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:46:55pm

a topic of interest, shall we say.

mutants are not new, yes exciting to see it happen, but doesn't really change the discussion. ie, it doesn't disprove ID

9 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:46:58pm
10 Ash_  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:47:28pm

Bugs are getting better and better. The bugs that can create crude oil are pretty awesome.

11 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:47:36pm

re: #4 Charles

As I have always said....its your site....you can do with it what you want.

I do fear however that you might chase off some of your wonderful Creationist "lizardoids" however, as these types of threads seem to be a bit aggressive against them.

Just looking out for a site I enjoy.

12 godfrey  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:47:37pm

Cool.

13 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:47:39pm

re: #8 frodolives

a topic of interest, shall we say.

mutants are not new, yes exciting to see it happen, but doesn't really change the discussion. ie, it doesn't disprove ID


but aren't random mutations are the heart of the discussion ?

14 pat  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:47:42pm

Now if only liberals could evolve.

15 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:47:48pm

re: #2 buzzsawmonkey

But because they have not yet evolved exoskeletons, the ID crowd will reject these findings.

I accept the findings and wonder where the human race will be in 31,000 generations.

16 opnion  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:47:51pm

re: #6 Eowyn2

it stands to reason that in 32,500 generations, humans will loose the need for toes.


Wait a minute! How do you think that we will count then we finish with our fingers?

17 BignJames  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:47:55pm

re: #6 Eowyn2

it stands to reason that in 32,500 generations, humans will loose the need for toes.


Not my little piggies!?! Say it ain't so!

18 dave fitz  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:48:07pm

*nod@Wrath*
I was going to say, I really don't think the "intelligent design vs. evolution vs. basically everybody" argument does any good for anyone.

I'll care a lot more about the cranks on either side when they're actually talking someone out of money or planting bombs in biolabs. In the meantime, it's refereeing a skunk fight to bring it up.

Dave

19 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:49:06pm
20 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:49:12pm

re: #8 frodolives

a topic of interest, shall we say.

mutants are not new, yes exciting to see it happen, but doesn't really change the discussion. ie, it doesn't disprove ID

You cannot disprove ID, because it's not falsifiable. This, by the way, also shows that it is not science.

21 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:49:31pm

re: #9 buzzsawmonkey

No mean feet, that.


less stinky feet
eliminates sock lint and sweat between the toes

22 frodolives  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:49:43pm

re: #13 Shug

but aren't random mutations are the heart of the discussion ?

ah, but how do you know it's random?

23 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:50:27pm

re: #22 frodolives

How do I know something is random ?

because it's random

24 opnion  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:51:46pm

re: #19 buzzsawmonkey

In the Year 2525

BTW, one of the worst songs ever.


Zager & Evans . It is profoundly bad.
It may be eclipsed by "Reach out in the Darkness" by Friend & Lover, about the same time. Truly painful.

25 BignJames  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:51:46pm

re: #23 Shug


random pattern

26 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:52:13pm

re: #11 WrathofG-d

As I have always said....its your site....you can do with it what you want.

I do fear however that you might chase off some of your wonderful Creationist "lizardoids" however, as these types of threads seem to be a bit aggressive against them.

Just looking out for a site I enjoy.

I don't know why it should chase anyone off if I link to articles about valid scientific experiments.

27 JKWEST  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:53:13pm

re: #7 GregInSeattle

Yes, God uses evolution.

Amazing innit?

28 Mich-again  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:53:18pm

This isn't just a random mutation, but evolution because the new bacteria is better equipped to survive than the original one. Pretty cool that it all happened in a lab. It would be interesting to see if the same thing happens to the other 11 sets or if something totally different happens.

29 Anthony (Los Angeles)  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:53:43pm
A major evolutionary innovation has unfurled right in front of researchers’ eyes.

But how does this discussion help Michelle Obama's daughters?

30 ryannon  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:53:49pm

Change We Can Believe In.

31 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:54:10pm

re: #20 Charles

You cannot disprove ID, because it's not falsifiable. This, by the way, also shows that it is not science.

But the same goes for evolution. We can only go so far to prove it and so far to disprove it.

I am a creationist, I do not think that ID should be taught in the classrooms but I think that evolution should be taught as a theory rather than a proven scientific truth. I like the exactness of math and physics.

32 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:54:21pm

re: #26 Charles

Non computer people could say the same thing about your code threads. they don't interest me, but really I just don't understand it. Likewise I don't usually get into these ID discussions. same reason

the best thing about your forum is the wide variety of topics and discussions occurring simultaneously.

I don't understand how somebody can claim that any particular topic(s) is going to drive people away.

SCIENCE!

/dolby out

33 Buster Bunny  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:54:24pm

And if you look deep in the bacterial mix you can see relatives of Ben Stein!

/Bacterium Bunny

34 godfrey  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:54:58pm

Reza is offended.

35 Wookieelips  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:55:14pm

E. coli smells like dirty wet dog.

36 Mich-again  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:55:29pm

These aren't the same bacteria I knew.

37 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:55:30pm

re: #31 Eowyn2

But the same goes for evolution. We can only go so far to prove it and so far to disprove it.

I am a creationist, I do not think that ID should be taught in the classrooms but I think that evolution should be taught as a theory rather than a proven scientific truth. I like the exactness of math and physics.

No, it's not even remotely comparable, sorry. There are many parts to the theory of evolution that are falsifiable; people have been trying to do it for many years. And the theory has only survived and gotten stronger.

Like these bacteria.

38 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:55:35pm

re: #16 opnion

Wait a minute! How do you think that we will count then we finish with our fingers?


hair folicles?

39 calvin coolidge  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:55:54pm

Wake me up when the Spartans actually win a football game against Meeechigan.

40 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:56:10pm

re: #39 calvin coolidge

Wake me up when the Spartans actually win a football game against Meeechigan.

OK Mr van Winkle

41 Thanos  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:56:49pm

The bacteria can't have my OJ! Not now, not ever!

:)

This is highly interesting, thanks.

42 Pshawalaw  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:57:06pm

My interest will really peak when they figure out how evolution led to consciousness.

43 Buster Bunny  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:57:20pm

I know that i've evolved from somewhere.

Stick a monkey in an armchair, give him a remote control and some peanuts or chips and ask him to pick the channel.

Who knows? you may find the monkey has better taste in TV viewing than any spouse, partner or extra being you've ever met !

/Broadband Bunny

44 frodolives  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:57:22pm

re: #23 Shug

But you don't know all the factors involved. That's why the scientist is going back to see what "laid the groundwork" for the later mutation

The replays showed that even when he looked at trillions of cells, only the original population re-evolved Cit+ – and only when he started the replay from generation 20,000 or greater. Something, he concluded, must have happened around generation 20,000 that laid the groundwork for Cit+ to later evolve.
Lenski and his colleagues are now working to identify just what that earlier change was, and how it made the Cit+ mutation possible more than 10,000 generations later.

45 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:57:48pm

re: #26 Charles

its the inevitable "anyone that belives in G-d, or anything other than straight evolution from monkeys is a myth loving idiot, with not enough brain power to not believe in cloud people" comments that would upset people.

Overall my 2c was stated, and concern expressed. I appologize for repeating myself but it is your site and you should, and will do what you would like.

I know what I know and believe what I believe, and luckily for me it doesn't require others to agree.

46 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:58:05pm

re: #32 Shug

Non computer people could say the same thing about your code threads. they don't interest me, but really I just don't understand it. Likewise I don't usually get into these ID discussions. same reason

the best thing about your forum is the wide variety of topics and discussions occurring simultaneously.

I don't understand how somebody can claim that any particular topic(s) is going to drive people away.

SCIENCE!
/dolby out

I will have to be deleted by the infamous stinky before I will allow myself to be driven off because of a topic. Unless of course, someone is really really mean, and makes me really really sad, and like, hurts my feelings.

47 frodolives  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:58:13pm

re: #20 Charles

how do you figure it shows that it's not science?

48 Antilles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:58:19pm

Bravo Charles!

Keep up the good fight!

49 bellamags  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:58:27pm

re: #35 Wookieelips

Does it really? and also, how did you find out?

50 frodolives  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:59:13pm

re: #44 frodolives

oops. sorry about the bold.

51 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:59:35pm

re: #47 frodolives

how do you figure it shows that it's not science?

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

52 Pshawalaw  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:59:39pm

When it comes to e coli, I don't believe it until /www.med.umich.edu/microbio/bio/mobley.htm">Ha rry says it is so.

53 Dar ul Harb  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:59:41pm

Here's the abstract from Proceedings Of The National Academy of Sciences.

54 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 3:59:57pm

re: #44 frodolives

I've always subscribed to the Chariots of the Gods scenario, combined with evolution and the existence of a higher power.

In short, I enjoy looking at a tree and a sunset. I don't worry so much about who made the tree, or who made the eyeball that allows me to see the sunset. I just enjoy it

It's all so amazing that I think it's like that Box guy in Star Trek.

If you look at it you will go insane.

So I don't but I don't bother about people that want to know or not know but have faith.

55 Dar ul Harb  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:01:45pm

re: #35 Wookieelips

E. coli smells like dirty wet dog.

Smells like poo.

Not to be confused with Obama's national security adviser.

56 Buster Bunny  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:01:49pm

Charles

I think the clincher to the whole deal is an experiment the Russians did a while back with foxes. They stuck foxes in cages and tried to domesticate them. After about 16-20 generations .. the foxes were 'pseudo' domestic. But the remarkable thing was .. after that .. they started to change their COATS from the pure black they had been before.

Google it .. it was about 8 years ago since i heard the story. But its well worth finding out more about. Its basically along the same lines.

/Breeder Bunny

57 Pshawalaw  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:02:01pm

Harry

Try this link thing again, I will.

58 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:02:10pm
59 see bs  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:02:40pm

Did one of the bacteria develop the ability to turn into ice, shoot lasers from its eyes, have psychic abilities, have wings, have "beast" like hands or have a mentor that was confined to a wheel chair?

Maybe control magnetism or become immovable?

Pop 3 claws from its hands? Control the weather? Have a steel skin? Teleport?

60 Agahnim  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:03:13pm

I remember when we worked with plasmids in lab to give E. Coli the glow in the dark properties of jellyfish. That was pretty freakin' sweet.

61 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:03:17pm

re: #4 Charles

Uh no. It's an article on a scientific subject that I happen to be interested in.

Ah Ha.

62 Cicero05  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:03:30pm

I use citrate myself. So what's the big deal?

63 Buster Bunny  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:04:31pm

re: #59 see bs

Did one of the bacteria develop the ability to turn into ice, shoot lasers from its eyes, have psychic abilities, have wings, have "beast" like hands or have a mentor that was confined to a wheel chair?

Maybe control magnetism or become immovable?

Pop 3 claws from its hands? Control the weather? Have a steel skin? Teleport?

Sure they did. I saw a movie from the 50s where all that happened.

And it was REAL too .. i tells ya.

/B & W Bunny

64 brickthruplateglasswindow  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:04:32pm

Replicate and repeat, then it's scientific.

65 JohnH  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:05:09pm

I do not know a single creationist who would have any problems with what occurred.

I will observe that if it took 31,500 generations for what appears to be one change to occur in a protected environment, extrapolating this to humans and assuming a generation averages 20 years, this one change would take 630,000 years.

'Jes sayin'......

66 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:05:17pm

re: #37 Charles

No, it's not even remotely comparable, sorry. There are many parts to the theory of evolution that are falsifiable; people have been trying to do it for many years. And the theory has only survived and gotten stronger.

Like these bacteria.

I firmly believe that man has evolved. Else we would still be worshipping black moon rocks ... oh wait we are. well some humans are. Currently public schools are not teaching that evolution is a theory that has had some parts proven. We all know that animals adapt to diffent conditions. Rather than teach kids to search out questions and answers about evolution, they teach kids that there are no questions left unanswered. I firmly object to that.

I do not, however, object discussing super germs or super bacteria.

67 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:05:26pm
68 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:05:41pm
69 WhiteRasta  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:06:57pm

re: #11 WrathofG-d

It's interesting to have an intelligent debate.........

70 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:07:04pm

re: #44 frodolives

But you don't know all the factors involved. That's why the scientist is going back to see what "laid the groundwork" for the later mutation

The replays showed that even when he looked at trillions of cells, only the original population re-evolved Cit+ – and only when he started the replay from generation 20,000 or greater. Something, he concluded, must have happened around generation 20,000 that laid the groundwork for Cit+ to later evolve.
Lenski and his colleagues are now working to identify just what that earlier change was, and how it made the Cit+ mutation possible more than 10,000 generations later.

I think it was the dogs and cats living together.

71 Dar ul Harb  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:07:18pm

This just in:
E. coli more evolved than Islamic terrorists

Biofilm at 11.

72 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:07:31pm
73 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:07:35pm

re: #66 Eowyn2

Rather than teach kids to search out questions and answers about evolution, they teach kids that there are no questions left unanswered. I firmly object to that.

You're going to have to prove that, because it's certainly not what I was taught in science class.

74 Cicero05  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:08:08pm

re: #65 JohnH

I do not know a single creationist who would have any problems with what occurred.

<blockquote>I will observe that if it took 31,500 generations for what appears to be one change to occur in a protected environment, extrapolating this to humans and assuming a generation averages 20 years, this one change would take 630,000 years.</blockquote>

'Jes sayin'......

Your logic is sooo misguided I hardly know where to start.

75 Agahnim  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:08:18pm

I'm really, really interested in seeing the different pathways that allowed this to occur, and the implications of the mutation in the E. Coli strain compared to other features. Very interesting. I love science.

76 Buster Bunny  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:08:26pm

re: #65 JohnH

I do not know a single creationist who would have any problems with what occurred.

I will observe that if it took 31,500 generations for what appears to be one change to occur in a protected environment, extrapolating this to humans and assuming a generation averages 20 years, this one change would take 630,000 years.

'Jes sayin'......

Actually change will take place in a relevant stream within a single generation if the circumstances are far removed from the known previous parameters.

Think of those lizards in Crete who changed and adapted within 20 years. All that was necessary there is a total upheaval of their known environment.

/Blatent Bunny

77 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:09:01pm
78 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:09:10pm

re: #75 Agahnim

I'm really, really interested in seeing the different pathways that allowed this to occur, and the implications of the mutation in the E. Coli strain compared to other features. Very interesting. I love science.

Really? Then why are you dinging down all the pro-evolution comments?

79 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:09:15pm

Alright.

It is E. Coli. It is evolution as opposed to intelligent design.

Only one comment is appropriate: Holy Shit.

80 Cicero05  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:10:03pm

re: #77 ploome hineni

you a germ?

I've been called worse.

81 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:11:03pm

re: #56 Buster Bunny

Charles

I think the clincher to the whole deal is an experiment the Russians did a while back with foxes. They stuck foxes in cages and tried to domesticate them. After about 16-20 generations .. the foxes were 'pseudo' domestic. But the remarkable thing was .. after that .. they started to change their COATS from the pure black they had been before.

Google it .. it was about 8 years ago since i heard the story. But its well worth finding out more about. Its basically along the same lines.

/Breeder Bunny


could it have been a result of inbreeding?

82 Agahnim  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:11:03pm

re: #73 Charles

You're going to have to prove that, because it's certainly not what I was taught in science class.

That's actually how I was taught in my Zoology class the first day. Everything had been proven, it was a fact, and if anyone had any questions about it they could leave the class. He was a great teacher though, and actually believed in some latent psychic abilities.

I miss him. =(

83 vapig  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:11:20pm

Sorry - not as exciting to me as the oil pooping bugs.....

84 Pyroskank  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:11:24pm

This whole idea of teaching "ID" in schools seems so ridiculous to me. It's all supposition and honestly has NOTHING to do with the theory of evolution. Science does not, and never has, claimed to explain the philosophical reasons for WHY the world behaves as it does. It simply tries to describe, in the most accurate way possible, HOW it happens. Religion supplies the "why" and rarely provides the "how".

As a brief example, the bible tells us that G-d created light. He said "let there be light" and there was light. How? The bible doesn't say. And honestly, it doesn't matter in a religious sense. It just happened.

The bible tells us why G-d created humans. Darwinism tells us how human beings came to be as they are today. These concepts cannot, by definition, contradict one another. This is why any idea like "ID" that attempts to explain "why" rather than "how" is not science, and has no place in a public classroom.

What is so hard to understand about this?

85 right wing zephyr  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:11:39pm

re: #69 WhiteRasta

It's interesting to have an intelligent debate.........

Yeah. Let me know when you see one.

86 schneidballs  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:11:48pm

My question would be, did the mutation result from an increase of DNA information (required for evolution) or a re-shuffling of what was already there, or removing information a that was there previously.

If it was an actual increase in DNA information, then I would be inclined to call it evolution (from less DNA information to more DNA information), if shifting of current DNA or removal of DNA then it is devolution, heading in the wrong direction to support Darwin's theory.

ID does not say changes will not happen, but mutations to date (that I am aware of) have all been moving around existing DNA or removing parts of existing DNA, not adding information to the DNA. You need to add volumes of information to go from "goo in a pond" to humans...so claiming things change without showing it adds information does not help disprove anything.

There have been many headlines saying "look at the evolution" but after the headlines they show themselves to be using information that was already there...time will tell on this one.

87 Pshawalaw  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:11:54pm

Tell me, isn't ID different from just believing there is a Creator?

88 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:11:55pm

re: #69 WhiteRasta

Please do not misunderstand my statement. I am in no way against deate on this, or any other issue. I am not saying that this should not be brought up on LGF. (for many reasons, including the biggest which is that it isn't up to me) I was only wondering if bringing this contentious issue up so often in the last couple days, when everyone involved (with an "i" not "e" ;) ) will have noticed that some are not as open to a difference of opinion as others, and instead choose to mock and degrade those who believe in Creation. I am never bothered by anything anyone here says about any topic, but came very close to it because of the manner of which some people disagreed with Creationism.

Again, I'll repeat that overall it doesn't matter what I think on this subject as its no my site, and I have no, to very very little say over what happens on this site. I just wished to get my 2c out. Which thanks to LGF was I able to.

89 Buster Bunny  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:12:24pm

Ire: #68 ploome hineni

[Link: findarticles.com...]

Thanks for that ploome .. i knew it was out there.

Charles .. there u go .. another prime example of that evo-looting stuff happening in the real world.

Hey you know .. you could make that into a whole topic !

/Bolshoi Bunny

90 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:12:48pm

So how about them Knicks?

91 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:13:31pm
92 Buster Bunny  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:13:46pm

re: #90 Nevergiveup

So how about them Knicks?

The Knicks evolved?

93 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:13:55pm

re: #86 schneidballs

My question would be, did the mutation result from an increase of DNA information (required for evolution)...

This is a Discovery Institute talking point, and it is simply not true.

94 Agahnim  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:14:48pm

re: #78 Charles

Really? Then why are you dinging down all the pro-evolution comments?

First thread I looked at there was a -9 ding on a guy who stated his opinion for ID, and didn't deserve any dings. I've since dinged down jerky comments, and up-dinged things I happen to agree with or good points made.

95 gibsonz  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:14:48pm

I have personally witnessed` 50 years of reverse evolution - it is called the democratic party!

96 schneidballs  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:15:12pm

By the way, that was my first post after reading for years...love the site Charles!

Go E. Coli!

97 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:15:22pm
98 Wookieelips  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:15:26pm

re: #49 bellamags

Does it really? and also, how did you find out?


Microbiology course.

The lab always smelled like. Had to smell it 4 mornings a week.

*barf*

100 Ringo the Gringo  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:15:38pm

I have no problem with ID being taught in the classroom, so long as it is in a philosophy class and not a science class.


Science should inform philosophy, but not the other way around.

101 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:15:51pm

There is nothing new, here, given that the influenza virus mutates/evolves/changes from year to year. All part of God's creation.

102 schneidballs  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:16:20pm
This is a Discovery Institute talking point, and it is simply not true.

Why is it not true? It seems reasonable to me that you need more DNA to evolve...

103 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:16:22pm

re: #97 ploome hineni

OT

Drudge could not find an uglier picture?

Well at least she is wearing a USMC pin.

104 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:16:27pm
105 Buster Bunny  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:16:39pm

re: #94 Agahnim

First thread I looked at there was a -9 ding on a guy who stated his opinion for ID, and didn't deserve any dings. I've since dinged down jerky comments, and up-dinged things I happen to agree with or good points made.

I'm anti-dingian in my beliefs. I believe that to ding you must ding for a reason. Note : the Buddhists also believe in this.

/Bong on Bunny

106 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:16:58pm

re: #67 buzzsawmonkey

Depends on what your definition of science is.

Physics is a provable science - gravity exists, acceleration exists (deceleration is only negative acceleration) torque exists. It took some pretty brilliant minds to see that and prove it.

Mathmatics is provable 1 plus 1 = 2 in any language. Imaginary numbers are a bit freaky.

107 Gordon Marock  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:17:42pm

Let's see, scientists use years of research, mapping of DNA, and studies of observable mutations of simple organisms to create bacteira that produce, among other things, oil, human hormones, etc, and the ID people still want to debunk the theory of evolution? What a bunch of dunces.

108 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:18:05pm

re: #99 WrathofG-d

Proof of Evolution....ha! take that Creationists!


What happened to poor old Moe?

109 gameover  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:18:10pm

Nano-evolution rules!

110 jelo  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:18:34pm

Just wait, believe what you want ...upon death you will all know the answer.

Just make sure you made the right choice!

111 NonNativeTexan  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:18:35pm

Should have also done Antibiotics in parallel, then we could have
mixed them and let em "duke it out"

112 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:18:54pm

re: #110 jelo

Just wait, believe what you want ...upon death you will all know the answer.

Just make sure you made the right choice!


We have a winner!

113 Agahnim  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:18:59pm

re: #105 Buster Bunny

I'm anti-dingian in my beliefs. I believe that to ding you must ding for a reason. Note : the Buddhists also believe in this.

/Bong on Bunny

I was searching the world for the ding, but the ding was inside me the whole time?

114 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:19:00pm

re: #102 schneidballs

Why is it not true? It seems reasonable to me that you need more DNA to evolve...

Uh, it may "sound reasonable" but it is not true. You don't need "extra DNA" for species to evolve. In fact, sometimes, mutations involve the LOSS of DNA.

115 VegasRick  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:19:28pm

re: #107 Gordon Marock

Let's see, scientists use years of research, mapping of DNA, and studies of observable mutations of simple organisms to create bacteira that produce, among other things, oil, human hormones, etc, and the ID people still want to debunk the theory of evolution? What a bunch of dunces.

Nice.

116 Pshawalaw  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:19:52pm

I'm not ready to give up on the possibility that a supreme being could have brought all of this into existence, including evolution; I don't see a conflict between the two ideas. Both could be true.

117 Boogberg  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:19:55pm

re: #78 Charles

Really? Then why are you dinging down all the pro-evolution comments?

Aaaahahahaha! Busted! :D

118 brickthruplateglasswindow  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:20:01pm

Evolution- syn. Change

Obama is the Evolution candidate. Just sayin'.

119 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:20:09pm

re: #108 A Kiwi Infidel

reintigrative progression?

120 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:20:16pm

re: #110 jelo

Just wait, believe what you want ...upon death you will all know the answer.

Just make sure you made the right choice!

Well that's why as a Jew, I never charge any of the Priests I treat. As far as for Imams, their on their own.

121 FamHistoryGuy  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:20:21pm

re: #6 Eowyn2


Maybe not that long.

122 stevedecatur  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:20:25pm

Science is wrong, they'll never find the missing link between humans and monkeys... but the creationists are wrong too.

http://www.last.fm/music/Dan+Bern/_/No+Missing+Lin k has a NSFW expletive

123 Buster Bunny  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:20:33pm

I conducted the most deep and meaningful experiment with E Coli in a restricted environment.

It involved a 3 week old piece of chicken, my refrigerator, and a nite on the tiles with a bucket at hand after realising that after 3 weeks .. dat chicken aint what he used to be.

My further experiment with chicken will be left to the experts in the lab.

/Bad Chicken Bunny

124 SuaSponte  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:21:04pm

Wow, maybe in another 15 years it will sprout a toe!

Did the number of base pairs in its genome increase? If so, then, statistically it should become human in about 12,000 years! It will probably become a liberal democrat a lot sooner. That could be a problem for the rest of us.

125 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:21:28pm

re: #116 Pshawalaw

I'm not ready to give up on the possibility that a supreme being could have brought all of this into existence, including evolution; I don't see a conflict between the two ideas. Both could be true.

Who said anything about giving up on religion?

126 Wookieelips  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:21:29pm

re: #107 Gordon Marock

Let's see, scientists use years of research, mapping of DNA, and studies of observable mutations of simple organisms to create bacteira that produce, among other things, oil, human hormones, etc, and the ID people still want to debunk the theory of evolution? What a bunch of dunces.


I was under the impression for like, forever, that ID wasn't about debunking evolution, but about believing that God made it possible.

Meh, I don't care.

127 angst  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:21:52pm

re: #3 Shug

you should get out more often

My thoughts exactly. This is how we get drug resistance.


re: #19 buzzsawmonkey

In the Year 2525

BTW, one of the worst songs ever.

My earth sciences teacher made us listen to that. I blame him for making me end up with dual majors in biology and philosophy- because the best way to ruin a good science education is to sit around and ask: But Why?

128 Gordon Marock  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:21:59pm

It is clear from the lack of posts quoting my previous posts that some here are utterly afraid of confronting the one thing that makes many insist on pushing ID, i.e., they are too afraid to confront the intellectual possibility that the human mind, includding their inner selves, is terminated irrevocably upon physical death. Science must always be free to ask the hardest questions in life, and scardey cats have no business in a laboratory.

129 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:22:05pm

re: #124 SuaSponte

Did the number of base pairs in its genome increase?

This is a non sequitur.

130 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:22:20pm

re: #73 Charles

You're going to have to prove that, because it's certainly not what I was taught in science class.

No offense, but I think you're a little older than my kids. I wasnt taught that in my biology or advanced biology in high school. My kids graduated in 99, 2000 and 2001. Reading their science books, there was rarely any mention of the word "theory" whereas it was all over in my 74 and 76 biology books.

131 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:23:13pm

re: #119 WrathofG-d

reintigrative progression?


I guess thats what happens when you spend too much time in the bar

132 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:23:45pm
#114 Charles
re: #102 schneidballs

Why is it not true? It seems reasonable to me that you need more DNA to evolve...

Uh, it may "sound reasonable" but it is not true. You don't need "extra DNA" for species to evolve. In fact, sometimes, mutations involve the LOSS of DNA.

schneidballs, people have been studying this exact topic for decades and decades. Charles is correct, it has nothing to do with the "amount" of DNA. There's enough information floating around in any species' DNA to do a whole lotta evolving. The mere fact that you personally connot visualize how it works doesn't mean it can't work.

it works all the time.

133 nbenhaim  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:23:56pm

I don't get it. Why does Charles keep posting ID/Evolution topics. Who cares if frikkin E Coli bacteria evolves? Is this something new? Nobody denies that evolution has been occurring for millions of years. Not even Ben Stein!

-Nadav

134 Purple Prose  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:23:58pm

Can science come up with a way to get Islam to evolve? Reformation? Rejection of literalism, supremacism and tribal Bedouin aspects of the ideology? Tolerance for other belief systems? Renunciation of sharia, jihad, coercive dawa and deception to attain the goal of global Islamic domination? Respect for truth and individual responsibility?

Now that would be something!

135 Gordon Marock  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:23:59pm

Correction:

It is clear from the lack of posts quoting my previous posts that some here are utterly afraid of confronting the one thing that makes many insist on pushing ID, i.e., they are too afraid to confront the intellectual possibility that the human mind, includding their inner selves, is terminated irrevocably upon physical death. Science must always be free to ask the hardest questions in life, and scardey cats have no business in a laboratory.

136 VegasRick  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:24:08pm

re: #118 brickthruplateglasswindow

Evolution- syn. Change

Obama is the Evolution candidate. Just sayin'.

From an earlier post that nobody commented on.
[Link: thestoneoftear.blogspot.com...]

137 Pshawalaw  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:24:18pm

re: #125 Charles

Who said anything about giving up on religion?

Well, that is why I asked a few comments back about ID being distinct from believing in a creator. I get the sense that some here think ID is the only way in which the creation story can be stated.

138 Pyroskank  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:24:51pm

re: #116 Pshawalaw

I'm not ready to give up on the possibility that a supreme being could have brought all of this into existence, including evolution; I don't see a conflict between the two ideas. Both could be true.

This is what I'm saying. There IS no conflict.

And while "ID" is an intriguing philosophical theory, it has no place in any science classroom, because as Charles pointed out, it is not falsifiable, and therefore, not science. No bacteria necessary to prove that one.

139 rightwinger3  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:24:52pm

re: #107 Gordon Marock

Let's see, scientists use years of research, mapping of DNA, and studies of observable mutations of simple organisms to create bacteira that produce, among other things, oil, human hormones, etc, and the ID people still want to debunk the theory of evolution? What a bunch of dunces.

I guess I just want to debunk the common ancestor crap. I don't think we were amoebas evolved over billions of years. Evolution occurs as evidenced by what Charles posted above. Scientifically observed, I have no reason to doubt E Coli uses citrate when it could not before. Even the finches on Galapagos evolved into new finch species. That kind of stuff, to me, doesn't prove we all evolved from the first 2 cells ever and have a common ancestor.

140 angst  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:25:01pm

re: #132 zombie

schneidballs, people have been studying this exact topic for decades and decades. Charles is correct, it has nothing to do with the "amount" of DNA. There's enough information floating around in any species' DNA to do a whole lotta evolving. The mere fact that you personally connot visualize how it works doesn't mean it can't work.

it works all the time.

Did you know there are only 9 genes in HIV? Prions have even less and they are the deadliest things of all because you can't kill 'em.

141 schneidballs  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:25:16pm
Uh, it may "sound reasonable" but it is not true. You don't need "extra DNA" for species to evolve. In fact, sometimes, mutations involve the LOSS of DNA.

So how did all the information get there in the first place? That's what the whole debate is over isn't it? Showing going backward or sideways doesn't help diffuse the argument.

142 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:25:19pm

re: #133 nbenhaim

I don't get it. Why does Charles keep posting ID/Evolution topics. Who cares if frikkin E Coli bacteria evolves? Is this something new? Nobody denies that evolution has been occurring for millions of years. Not even Ben Stein!

-Nadav

The only reason ID came up is because commenters brought it up. The article has nothing to do with ID.

It's an interesting article on a fascinating scientific experiment.

143 frodolives  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:25:32pm

re: #20 Charles

According to the wiki article you cited, falsifiable (besides being a #$%^&*! mouthful) is able to be criticized by observational reports. Reminds me so much of the old question, "If a tree falls in the forest and no one is near it, does it still make a sound?"

That others didn't hear the sound doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Besides, I think an argument can be made about the what exactly counts as observational. But not at the moment. Too long of a day and too much still to do.

144 Buster Bunny  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:25:52pm

re: #124 SuaSponte

Wow, maybe in another 15 years it will sprout a toe!

Did the number of base pairs in its genome increase? If so, then, statistically it should become human in about 12,000 years! It will probably become a liberal democrat a lot sooner. That could be a problem for the rest of us.

The chances of any sequence resembling any previous sequence is placed at odds that would scare any on-course bookie. So why assume that from a non-common derivative you can achieve similar results?

/Betting Bunny

145 Cicero05  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:26:02pm

re: #133 nbenhaim

I don't get it. Why does Charles keep posting ID/Evolution topics. Who cares if frikkin E Coli bacteria evolves? Is this something new? Nobody denies that evolution has been occurring for millions of years. Not even Ben Stein!

-Nadav

You should care. That frickin' bacteria is going to have your job in 15 years.

146 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:26:15pm

Let's talk about the Evolution of a BAD Idea:

"Final stage of Gaza truce may include multinational Arab force"

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

Am I the only one who sees a problem with this?

147 Ringo the Gringo  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:26:20pm

re: #132 zombie

zombie,

Someone has posted about a buch of links to porn-sites in your Israel in the Garden thread at zomblog.

148 SusanL  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:26:22pm

re: #88 WrathofG-d

I agree Wrath. At the first mocking comment, I just stop reading.

I understand that evolution exists, I also understand that we have been taught the creation story our whole lives (if you were raised a Christian).

What bothers me is the "you have to be stupid to believe that" comments.

Those just sound like the way libs talk about all of us.

149 right_on_target  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:26:34pm

re: #6 Eowyn2

it stands to reason that in 32,500 generations, humans will loose the need for toes.

Then the human race will really be pushovers!

150 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:26:46pm
151 Dar ul Harb  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:26:47pm

re: #102 schneidballs

Why is it not true? It seems reasonable to me that you need more DNA to evolve...

Well, among animals characterized so far, the South American lungfish Lepidosiren paradoxa has the most DNA, at 80 picograms per genome.

Among mammals, the Red viscacha rat, Tympanoctomys barrerae, has the most, with 8.4 picograms per genome.

The human genome is 3.5 picograms.

Source: genomesize.com

152 astronmr20  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:27:04pm

The question is, though, what is the mechanism of this evolution?

153 SusanL  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:27:14pm

re: #97 ploome hineni

OT

Drudge could not find an uglier picture?

They do it on purpose.

154 frodolives  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:27:19pm

re: #136 VegasRick


earliest stage?

155 Buster Bunny  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:27:22pm

re: #147 Ringo the Gringo

zombie,

Someone has posted about a buch of links to porn-sites in your Israel in the Garden thread at zomblog.

GOOD porn sites?

156 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:27:26pm

re: #146 Nevergiveup

Let's talk about the Evolution of a BAD Idea:

"Final stage of Gaza truce may include multinational Arab force"

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

Am I the only one who sees a problem with this?


Ah, no, ergo; elBaradei as nuke inspector of Iran

157 Fritz_Katz  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:27:35pm

re: #51 Charles

re: #47 frodolives
how do you figure it shows that it's not science?


[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]


Not everyone agrees with 'Falsifiability'. FTA:

In their book Fashionable Nonsense ... the physicists Alan Sokal and Jean Bricmont criticized falsifiability on the grounds that it does not accurately describe the way science really works. They argue that theories are used because of their successes, not because of the failures of other theories. ... They further argue that falsifiability cannot distinguish between astrology and astronomy, as both make technical predictions that are sometimes incorrect.

IMHO, Science is what works and even more important -- what gets funded. Therefore theories of evolution and 'man-made global warming' must be correct -- and the theories or creationism and 'natural climate change' must be false.

158 astronmr20  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:27:42pm

re: #146 Nevergiveup

Let's talk about the Evolution of a BAD Idea:

"Final stage of Gaza truce may include multinational Arab force"

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

Am I the only one who sees a problem with this?

Holy shit!

Arab soldiers at Israel's door again. baaaaaad move.

159 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:27:42pm
160 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:27:45pm

Introns and Extrons
that's what it's all about
Promoters are important too
but base pairs have the clout

161 right wing zephyr  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:27:54pm

re: #139 rightwinger3

...That kind of stuff, to me, doesn't prove we all evolved from the first 2 cells ever and have a common ancestor.

Because that would be absurd.

Of course that should not be taught in our schools. Right?

162 csa945  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:27:59pm

re: #26 Charles

I don't know why it should chase anyone off if I link to articles about valid scientific experiments.

It would be as if you tuned into ESPN to watch football, but they ended up showing opera or ballet instead.

I concur with WrathofG-d: It's your blog; do with it as you want, but most people who come here do so out of an interest in combatting/increasing awareness of Islamofascism and politics as it relates to that subject.

If you start to devote more attention to evolution/creationism/intelligent design issues, I would suspect that many people, even some who are sympathetic to your point of view, will lose interest. Just speaking for myself: I've been a regular visitor since I found out about LGF back in 2003, and I'm largely ambivalent on the whole evolution/ID thing, so the more attention you devote to it, the more I lose interest in the blog. I realize I can't speak for anyone else, but I wouldn't be surprised if others shared my sentiments.

163 protestshooter  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:27:59pm

re: #133 nbenhaim

I don't get it. Why does Charles keep posting ID/Evolution topics. Who cares if frikkin E Coli bacteria evolves? Is this something new? Nobody denies that evolution has been occurring for millions of years. Not even Ben Stein!

-Nadav


I thought it was interesting.

164 Ringo the Gringo  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:28:01pm

re: #155 Buster Bunny

GOOD porn sites?

I don't think so.

165 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:28:03pm
166 FamHistoryGuy  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:28:05pm

re: #55 Dar ul Harb

Nor the UN investigator of discrimination in the US presidential campaign.

167 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:28:13pm

PIMF

exons

168 Gordon Marock  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:28:38pm

re: #142 Charles

Indeed, Charles. However, the need for the ID people to make others believe is grounded in the fear that if other rational people don't believe as they do, that they might be wrong and, if so, I sshudder to consider the possibilities.

169 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:28:39pm
170 angst  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:28:42pm

re: #152 astronmr20

The question is, though, what is the mechanism of this evolution?

What the E. coli did, only a couple of orders of magnitude greater.

171 Dar ul Harb  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:28:52pm

re: #151 Dar ul Harb

Hope we don't feel inadequate.

172 Pshawalaw  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:28:58pm

re: #138 Pyroskank

This is what I'm saying. There IS no conflict.

And while "ID" is an intriguing philosophical theory, it has no place in any science classroom, because as Charles pointed out, it is not falsifiable, and therefore, not science. No bacteria necessary to prove that one.

I'm not sure that we are all talking about the same thing when we cite ID, I believe that it is a distinct interpretation of how a supreme being is involved which we may not all agree with. I'm not sure how else to say it. ID may not be what you think it is.

173 right wing zephyr  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:28:58pm

re: #142 Charles

The only reason ID came up is because commenters brought it up. The article has nothing to do with ID.

It's an interesting article on a fascinating scientific experiment.

lol, good one.

174 Charles the Hammer  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:29:20pm

Can I ask whether or not this new E. Coli is now a new species? If not, this proves nothing. Again, this only "proves" Darwin's theory if you interpret the information this way. Even the article says that the trait "developed" is not "normally" considered a trait of E. Coli. Do we know that E. Coli, from the beginning, was genetically unable to make this adjustment, as a species? That is, the idea that species can change within limitations (a range of different traits that they can employ) but that doesn't necessarily lead to new species.

Of course, even questioning this probably means I'm some "lunatic creationist" to some.

the sinner,

Charles

175 Ringo the Gringo  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:29:34pm

re: #169 ploome hineni

well, check it out

and report back

:D

I would have, but I'm at work.

176 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:29:54pm
177 bulwrk  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:30:00pm

I've conducted similar experiments with left over pizza in my refrigerator before.

178 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:30:12pm

re: #157 Fritz_Katz

In their book Fashionable Nonsense ... the physicists Alan Sokal and Jean Bricmont criticized falsifiability on the grounds that it does not accurately describe the way science really works. They argue that theories are used because of their successes, not because of the failures of other theories. ... They further argue that falsifiability cannot distinguish between astrology and astronomy, as both make technical predictions that are sometimes incorrect.

The Sokal Affair.

179 right wing zephyr  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:30:23pm

re: #168 Gordon Marock

Indeed, Charles. However, the need for the ID people to make others believe is grounded in the fear that if other rational people don't believe as they do, that they might be wrong ...

In my experience that is f'ing ridiculous.

180 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:30:23pm

re: #89 Buster Bunny

Heck, the Native Americans were taming wolf cubs long before this.

Papa wolf: Okay kid, that guy is gonna throw us a bone, dont eat his hand or we get thrown out into the forty below weather. got that, good. now look cute and maybe we can get the elk snout

181 GGMac  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:30:38pm

Evolution?

Change!

182 jelo  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:30:44pm

re: #110 jelo

hey..... somebody out there gave me a (-1)..what's up with that?

183 goddessoftheclassroom  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:30:45pm

re: #148 SusanL

I agree Wrath. At the first mocking comment, I just stop reading.

I understand that evolution exists, I also understand that we have been taught the creation story our whole lives (if you were raised a Christian).

What bothers me is the "you have to be stupid to believe that" comments.

Those just sound like the way libs talk about all of us.

Exactly.

The other thing that bothers me is the idea that some teach that the theory of evolution PROVES that God did not create the universe. [NB: Charles, I know that is not your point at all.]

The bottom line, though: in terms of what is taught in the science curriculum of public schools, the origins of the universe, including life on earth, is a very small part indeed.

184 astronmr20  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:30:48pm

re: #170 angst

What the E. coli did, only a couple of orders of magnitude greater.

Huh?


I am asking what causes it. How can molecules, or DNA, have "will"? What makes it want to survive better?

This experiment is fascinating and perhaps groundbreaking.

But what is the mechanism?

185 rightwinger3  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:31:08pm

re: #161 right wing zephyr

Because that would be absurd.

Of course that should not be taught in our schools. Right?

Of course it should, don't be an ass.

186 Three Hundred  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:31:21pm

It has been shown that chickens can grow teeth by tweaking existing genetic information, not requireing the addition of dna.
chicken could grow teeth

187 Wookieelips  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:31:33pm

re: #134 Purple Prose

Can science come up with a way to get Islam to evolve? Reformation? Rejection of literalism, supremacism and tribal Bedouin aspects of the ideology? Tolerance for other belief systems? Renunciation of sharia, jihad, coercive dawa and deception to attain the goal of global Islamic domination? Respect for truth and individual responsibility?

Now that would be something!


Now, now. We all know science has only come so far...

188 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:31:40pm

re: #156 A Kiwi Infidel

I guess Olmert never read about the Trojan horse.

189 Kenneth  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:31:51pm

re: #8 frodolives

...mutants are not new, yes exciting to see it happen, but doesn't really change the discussion. ie, it doesn't disprove ID

Right. The Designer was so Intelligent he decided to change the design after 31,500 iterations.

190 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:31:55pm

re: #182 jelo

hey..... somebody out there gave me a (-1)..what's up with that?


Nice folks always get dinged down, sorry.

191 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:32:14pm

I will dismantle both camps with one question for each group

Creation people :explain the duck billed platypus

Evolution people: explain Flava Flav

192 right wing zephyr  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:32:25pm

re: #185 rightwinger3

excuse me?

193 VegasRick  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:32:31pm

re: #154 frodolives

earliest stage?

Of what?

194 brickthruplateglasswindow  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:32:33pm

re: #136 VegasRick

From an earlier post that nobody commented on.
[Link: thestoneoftear.blogspot.com...]

Missed that.
Thanks for the link. :)

195 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:32:48pm

re: #177 bulwrk

I've conducted similar experiments with left over pizza in my refrigerator before.

I find enough microwave heat either kills or inactivates most harmful bacteria. but it does leave the pizza a tad crisp?

196 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:32:54pm

re: #86 schneidballs

My question would be, did the mutation result from an increase of DNA information (required for evolution) or a re-shuffling of what was already there, or removing information a that was there previously.


That's another dead end creationist talking point. Evolution does not require an "increase" in "genetic information". It's a nonsensical talking point.

197 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:33:03pm

re: #188 WrathofG-d

I guess Olmert never read about the Trojan horse.


Olmert is a desperate tool, and a more desperate tool as each day passes toward his demise.

198 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:33:13pm
199 Buster Bunny  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:33:14pm

re: #188 WrathofG-d

I guess Olmert never read about the Trojan horse.

Olmert couldnt care less. He's there for what he can get out of it. Anything that happened before or after his reign is someone else's problem.

/Bolitical Bunny

200 astronmr20  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:33:26pm

re: #191 Shug

I will dismantle both camps with one question for each group

Creation people :explain the duck billed platypus

Evolution people: explain Flava Flav

"Yeaaaaaahhh boyeeeeeee!"

That is the only explanation needed. Carry on.

201 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:33:38pm

re: #127 angst

could explain the angst.

202 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:33:40pm
#133 nbenhaim 6/18/08 4:23:56 pm reply quote 0
I don't get it. Why does Charles keep posting ID/Evolution topics. Who cares if frikkin E Coli bacteria evolves? Is this something new? Nobody denies that evolution has been occurring for millions of years. Not even Ben Stein!

Yes, they certainly do deny that evolution has been happening. Most creationists, with very few exceptions, believe that each species on earth was created by God -- and thus did not evolve. Or at the most forgiving, they believe that God "directed" the evolution of each species, which just as egregiously denies and rejects the mechanism of "evolution through natural selection."

That's why Charles keeps posting these threads. Because many many people still do deny evolution, and those people seek to ruin any chance McCain has of getting elected, by making conservatives as a group look like buffoons.

203 unclassifiable  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:33:41pm

re: #14 pat

Into E. Coli bacteria?

Change!

204 angst  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:34:10pm

re: #157 Fritz_Katz

IMHO, Science is what works and even more important -- what gets funded. Therefore theories of evolution and 'man-made global warming' must be correct -- and the theories or creationism and 'natural climate change' must be false.

The ability for a theory to "work," i.e. predict future results or effect a predictable change is another way to verify a theory, especially if one can't set up an experiment to falsify it. I would guess that physicists are very much in favor of verifying theories that way since sometimes one can't manipulate the variables- especially at the extremes of astrophysics or quantum physics. To wait for evidence to rule out one's theory might take a lifetime.

205 right wing zephyr  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:34:15pm

re: #185 rightwinger3

Of course it should, don't be an ass.

You think we should teach kids in schools that humans came from 2 cells originally?

206 SusanL  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:34:26pm

re: #191 Shug

Thats easy, the platapus is made from the left over parts. :)

I don't know what a Flav a flav is, so I can't offer any suggestions.

S

207 protestshooter  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:34:26pm

re: #174 Charles the Hammer

Can I ask whether or not this new E. Coli is now a new species? If not, this proves nothing. Again, this only "proves" Darwin's theory if you interpret the information this way. Even the article says that the trait "developed" is not "normally" considered a trait of E. Coli. Do we know that E. Coli, from the beginning, was genetically unable to make this adjustment, as a species? That is, the idea that species can change within limitations (a range of different traits that they can employ) but that doesn't necessarily lead to new species.

Of course, even questioning this probably means I'm some "lunatic creationist" to some.

the sinner,

Charles

Your statement doesn't even really parse. The line between two groups that have genetically drifted apart - are they a different species or not - is fairly arbitrary. This is arguably a new species because the inability to use these goodies is one of the defining aspects of the species. But it's a constant debate in biology to split and combine species (on paper).

208 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:34:49pm

re: #188 WrathofG-d

I guess Olmert never read about the Trojan horse.

I wish Olmert's father had used a Trojan.

209 jc59  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:34:51pm

The article wouldn't be complete without the obligatory parting shot:

The thing I like most is it says you can get these complex traits evolving by a combination of unlikely events," he says. "That's just what creationists say can't happen."

210 experiencedtraveller  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:34:52pm

re: #145 Cicero05

You should care. That frickin' bacteria is going to have your job in 15 years.

Yeah but the democrats will unionize them and they'll get fat and lazy on government subsidies and then THE MAN will fire the bacteria and hire a low paying human.

211 brickthruplateglasswindow  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:35:08pm

re: #151 Dar ul Harb

Well, among animals characterized so far, the South American lungfish Lepidosiren paradoxa has the most DNA, at 80 picograms per genome.

Among mammals, the Red viscacha rat, Tympanoctomys barrerae, has the most, with 8.4 picograms per genome.

The human genome is 3.5 picograms.

Source: genomesize.com

It's official then. Size doesn't matter.

212 astronmr20  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:35:09pm

re: #206 SusanL

Thats easy, the platapus is made from the left over parts. :)

I don't know what a Flav a flav is, so I can't offer any suggestions.

S

Google.

213 rightwinger3  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:35:23pm

re: #192 right wing zephyr

excuse me?

Read your statement/question to me again and tell me you weren't being condescending. If I misconstrued your intent, sorry.

214 saberry0530  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:35:45pm

re: #4 Charles

Charles,
You read about the Lab grown and engineered bacteria that eat garbage and poop highly refined crude oil? That's a bacteria to love and appreciate. I'll see if I can find the article.

215 SusanL  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:35:46pm

re: #205 right wing zephyr

RWZ, we do come from two cells, a sperm cell and an egg cell.

216 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:35:56pm
217 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:36:04pm

re: #162 csa945

Ah, there you are. We've been watching you obsessively downrating evolution comments and links. We were wondering if you ever commented here.

218 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:36:07pm

re: #209 jc59

The article wouldn't be complete without the obligatory parting shot:

The thing I like most is it says you can get these complex traits evolving by a combination of unlikely events," he says. "That's just what creationists say can't happen."

Is there something untrue about that?

219 looking closely  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:36:24pm

No amount of experiments will ever convince anyone who is a fundamentalist.

You can't convince by logic someone out of a position they didn't enter by logic.

220 right wing zephyr  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:36:30pm

re: #213 rightwinger3

I've had a rough day. Sorry I think I didn't make any sense. I'm out.

221 GreenDroll  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:36:30pm

Evolution called by another name would be 'best practices.' Anyone with business or combat experience realizes that the inability to identify and quickly adopt whatever works best equals failure. Intelligent design only works if you are God (being all knowing, God allowed for adaptive change); generals and executives usually get it wrong and are painfully loathe to admit it.

222 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:36:40pm
223 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:36:48pm

re: #174 Charles the Hammer

Can I ask whether or not this new E. Coli is now a new species? If not, this proves nothing. Again, this only "proves" Darwin's theory if you interpret the information this way. Even the article says that the trait "developed" is not "normally" considered a trait of E. Coli. Do we know that E. Coli, from the beginning, was genetically unable to make this adjustment, as a species? That is, the idea that species can change within limitations (a range of different traits that they can employ) but that doesn't necessarily lead to new species.

Of course, even questioning this probably means I'm some "lunatic creationist" to some.

What alternate explanation do you have for the development of the millions of species, genera, phyli, families, etc. of plants and animals on this planet? Where did they come from if not through evolution?

I'd be willing to entertain any reasonable theory. Problem is, for the last two hundred years, there has but no alternate theory at all. Just a denial of the self-evident data.

224 eastvillageinfidel  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:37:00pm

re: #56 Buster Bunny

I saw something about this on some nature channel awhile back too. The Russians wanted to make the foxes friendlier so the people who worked in the kennels wouldn't get bitten so much. It seemed the friendlier they became , the more physically diverse they became - spotted coats, floppy ears etc.

225 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:37:27pm

re: #199 Buster Bunny

Olmert and anyone that allows multinational Arab forces into Gaza (or Judea/Samaria) is a major idiot. If under that arrangement, the Terrorists continue to be Terrorists, Israel will not be able to respond, and will be forced to complain to some International body while her citizens are being murdered. If however Israel does respond to the (inevitable) Terrorist attacks, it will undoubtely injure an "international Arab", and thus spark either (a) and international propaganda coup against Israel, or (b) a regional war.

If it is the latter then I can only hope that Israel wins and takes that opportunity to finish the unintended consequences of 1967.

226 NoSubmission  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:37:40pm
227 right wing zephyr  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:37:46pm

re: #215 SusanL

RWZ, we do come from two cells, a sperm cell and an egg cell.

Uhm. I don't think so. Where did you learn that nonsense?

228 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:37:50pm
229 astronmr20  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:37:54pm

Again,

What is the mechanism of this evolution? What causes it?

WHY do things evolve?


Why is survival necessary in these e.coli?

How can base molecules organize for "purpose?"

230 astronmr20  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:38:10pm
231 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:38:15pm

re: #147 Ringo the Gringo

zombie,

Someone has posted about a buch of links to porn-sites in your Israel in the Garden thread at zomblog.

Yeah, I know, I know, periodically I have to go through the whole site and delete spam comments.

Akismet spam-blocker ain't working too well for me.

232 jc59  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:38:18pm

"That's just what creationists say can't happen."

Really? I suppose this is a true statement since which creationists he doesn't specify. Do ID scientists claim that a mutation cannot create a new trait? No.

233 Cicero05  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:38:23pm

I met a girl while dating once who told me that she was absolutely certain that evolution was wrong. The reason she was so sure was that if people really evolved from apes, she said, then today we would see chimpanzees occasionally giving birth to human babies. "And that's never happened."

That was our last date.

234 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:38:41pm
235 protestshooter  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:38:41pm

re: #226 NoSubmission

More Obama Street Art spotted in Brooklyn.

hat tip/ buzzsawmonkey!

That's pretty cool, actually. Here we just have a bunch of screeching hippies bitching about UC changing its landscaping.

236 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:38:44pm

re: #216 Shug

OT
Haditha marine preparing to sue traitor Murtha

Any lawyers here want to comment on his chances?

237 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:38:51pm

re: #191 Shug

I will dismantle both camps with one question for each group

Creation people :explain the duck billed platypus

Evolution people: explain Flava Flav

God has a sense of humor:)

238 astronmr20  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:39:12pm

re: #225 WrathofG-d

Olmert and anyone that allows multinational Arab forces into Gaza (or Judea/Samaria) is a major idiot. If under that arrangement, the Terrorists continue to be Terrorists, Israel will not be able to respond, and will be forced to complain to some International body while her citizens are being murdered. If however Israel does respond to the (inevitable) Terrorist attacks, it will undoubtely injure an "international Arab", and thus spark either (a) and international propaganda coup against Israel, or (b) a regional war.

If it is the latter then I can only hope that Israel wins and takes that opportunity to finish the unintended consequences of 1967.

+10.

239 NoSubmission  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:39:58pm

re: #234 buzzsawmonkey

Creepy on several levels, ain't it?


It is! Definitely a home made one. Not by an 'artist' or anything. I know the street very well.. I haven't been down there in a while. It is totally gentrified.

240 VegasRick  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:40:01pm

re: #194 brickthruplateglasswindow

Missed that.
Thanks for the link. :)

re: #216 Shug

OT
Haditha marine preparing to sue traitor Murtha

Your welcome. I also stated that the evolutionists share this belief with the messiah so they have that going for them, which is nice.

241 NonNativeTexan  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:40:02pm

ID is just one theory of explaining the giant leaps in evolution
that take place in a short amount of time. This shows up in the
holes in the fossil records. The "I" makes the stew on the stove.
The "I" lets it cook a few million years. Every now and then
when the time is right the "I" adds a new ingredient and stirs.
Lets it cook for a few million more years and then adds
another ingredient, stirs, etc.


By the way:
The Science of God: The Convergence of Scientific and Biblical Wisdom - By Gerald Schroeder is a good read

242 Buster Bunny  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:40:02pm

re: #233 Cicero05

I met a girl while dating once who told me that she was absolutely certain that evolution was wrong. The reason she was so sure was that if people really evolved from apes, she said, then today we would see chimpanzees occasionally giving birth to human babies. "And that's never happened."

That was our last date.

Whats her phonenumber? Anyone that daft has to be worthy breeding material .....

243 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:40:11pm

re: #228 ploome hineni

the must have thought the comment was dumB


The...the....the...the....spit it out ploome...THEY, dayamit

244 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:40:19pm

re: #226 NoSubmission

Yo little homey, chiggy check dis out yo! oBOMBa!

245 NoSubmission  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:40:21pm

re: #235 protestshooter

That's pretty cool, actually. Here we just have a bunch of screeching hippies bitching about UC changing its landscaping.


I'm dying to take a pic of me in my McCain 08 tshirt in front of it!

246 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:40:27pm

re: #231 zombie

Yeah, I know, I know, periodically I have to go through the whole site and delete spam comments.

Akismet spam-blocker ain't working too well for me.

Why don't you just turn on the Wordpress registration feature?

247 unclassifiable  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:40:37pm

re: #191 Shug

Evolution people: explain Flava Flav

De-evolution.

It could happen.

248 looking closely  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:40:38pm

re: #233 Cicero05

I met a girl while dating once who told me that she was absolutely certain that evolution was wrong. The reason she was so sure was that if people really evolved from apes, she said, then today we would see chimpanzees occasionally giving birth to human babies. "And that's never happened."

That was our last date.

Who ever said humans were the most intelligent species anyway?

249 angst  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:40:41pm

re: #184 astronmr20

Huh?


I am asking what causes it. How can molecules, or DNA, have "will"? What makes it want to survive better?

This experiment is fascinating and perhaps groundbreaking.

But what is the mechanism?

It doesn't need will. The ones that survive better get to reproduce, it's that simple. The E. coli that happened to have a random mutation to metabolize citrate dramatically expanded their population because they was a new energy source to exploit, and there was no competition for it.

Do this in reverse, say with penicillin, and the ones that survive the drug will all have the DNA for penicillinase, an enzyme that destroys penicillin. Then their population will explode because the germs without penicillinase will have perished, reducing the competition.

The mechanism is natural selection.

250 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:40:46pm

re: #233 Cicero05

I met a girl while dating once who told me that she was absolutely certain that evolution was wrong. The reason she was so sure was that if people really evolved from apes, she said, then today we would see chimpanzees occasionally giving birth to human babies. "And that's never happened."

How do you explain me, then? I visit my mom at the zoo at least twice a week.

251 jelo  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:40:47pm

re: #190 A Kiwi Infidel

Ya I know the truth hurts,

And Charles, it's more than just "religion"...cause ya got guys and gals out there that think religious suicide/homicide bombings are a sole/soul sacrament.

252 GGMac  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:40:49pm

e. coli bacteria?

Just poop!

253 Agahnim  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:40:57pm

re: #114 Charles

Uh, it may "sound reasonable" but it is not true. You don't need "extra DNA" for species to evolve. In fact, sometimes, mutations involve the LOSS of DNA.

There is a substantial amount of DNA that is not normally used in replication (trash dna that works as a buffer around the regular code), but can be used through mutation. Most mutations result in the death of the cell, except for the occasional substitution mutation which codes for an unobtrusive protein.

Which means that this cell likely went through a heck of a lot of substitution mutations to create the enzyme that allows it to metabolize citrate.

E. Coli has the ability to metabolise lactose in environments with limited glucose (this is the environment the mutation occured in) so perhaps a mutation occured in this pathway?

254 NoSubmission  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:40:58pm

re: #244 WrathofG-d

Yo little homey, chiggy check dis out yo! oBOMBa!


Gah!

255 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:40:58pm

re: #229 astronmr20

How can base molecules organize for "purpose?"

Because the ones that adapt to changes in the environment are the ones that reproduce and survive to spawn future generations. The ones that don't tend to die out.

256 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:41:20pm

What about space aliens doing it with apes ?

257 GreenDroll  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:41:22pm

re: #191 Shug

Too easy;
Civilization suspends evolutionary pressure the same way isolation does. Don't knock on Flav though unless your paycheck > than his.

258 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:41:40pm

re: #202 zombie

Yes, they certainly do deny that evolution has been happening. Most creationists, with very few exceptions, believe that each species on earth was created by God -- and thus did not evolve. Or at the most forgiving, they believe that God "directed" the evolution of each species, which just as egregiously denies and rejects the mechanism of "evolution through natural selection."

That's why Charles keeps posting these threads. Because many many people still do deny evolution, and those people seek to ruin any chance McCain has of getting elected, by making conservatives as a group look like buffoons.

That wasnt very nice. There are people who deny evolution but the only people who are out there trying to tie every conservative into the 'right wing Judeo-Christian conservative nazi' camp are generally members of the left wing commie anarchist camp:)

259 protestshooter  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:41:41pm

re: #245 NoSubmission

I'm dying to take a pic of me in my McCain 08 tshirt in front of it!

You know, I don't know that I've ever seen a McCain t-shirt.

260 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:41:42pm
261 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:42:14pm
262 astronmr20  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:42:25pm

I love the Chi-com obama poster:

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

263 looking closely  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:42:26pm

re: #247 unclassifiable

De-evolution.

It could happen.

Indeed.

264 Agahnim  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:42:36pm

re: #140 angst

Did you know there are only 9 genes in HIV? Prions have even less and they are the deadliest things of all because you can't kill 'em.

I think of Prions as zombie proteins, personally. =P

265 NoSubmission  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:42:46pm

re: #259 protestshooter

You know, I don't know that I've ever seen a McCain t-shirt.


This is the one I want!

266 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:42:48pm

re: #256 Shug

What about space aliens doing it with apes ?


I guess the aliens arent fussy.

267 Wookieelips  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:42:49pm

re: #247 unclassifiable

De-evolution.

It could happen.


We've found too many to cheat nature. It's easy for stupid people to survive in America now. Just look at all the libfreaks.

You take the good with the bad, I guess.

268 nyc redneck  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:42:55pm

it's a very fascinating topic. it would seem that microbes mutate and evolve easily.
i read a book by ken albeck (?) abt. scientists in russia weaponizing certain diseases to make them more lethal.
ie. regular run of the mill small pox w/ a 40% mortality rate has been turned into black pox which kills nearly 98% of it's victims.
also anthrax has been turned into a monster disease compared to the mild strain often found on the farm.
not to mention the common cold virus that mutates and infects you next yr.
what is really dangerous is when a bacteria doesn't just "decide" to go for citrate but decides to jump to a new species and make a living there. that creates real hell for a the new host.
that's the theory on small pox. it is a large (in size) virus w/ of all things a mouse gene. which shows it could have infected people from a rodent.

269 Ojoe  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:43:06pm

Now instead of displaying bad posture at the dinner table, the E.coli will citrate.

270 saberry0530  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:43:16pm

Here's the link for the company that is making garbage eating, oil pooping bacteria.

CAN YA SPARE A FEW BUCKS FOR AN IPO, MISTA?

271 Yankee Division Son  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:43:17pm

re: #216 Shug

OT
Haditha marine preparing to sue traitor Murtha

Good for him.

272 protestshooter  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:43:30pm

re: #265 NoSubmission

This is the one I want!

I like it!

273 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:43:31pm

re: #229 astronmr20

Again,

What is the mechanism of this evolution? What causes it?

WHY do things evolve?


Why is survival necessary in these e.coli?

How can base molecules organize for "purpose?"

I suggest a basic biology course to answer your questions.

If you don't already know the answer, then you apparently don't even know what this debate is about.

Darwin answered those questions 150 years ago.

274 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:43:48pm

re: #261 ploome hineni

I m not now, nor have ever been a typPISSEd

:)

I am a thinkerdrinker

Your typing exposes you.

275 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:43:51pm
276 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:44:03pm

re: #256 Shug

What about space aliens doing it with apes ?

Is that a shot at my In-Laws?

277 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:44:08pm

re: #233 Cicero05

I met a girl while dating once who told me that she was absolutely certain that evolution was wrong. The reason she was so sure was that if people really evolved from apes, she said, then today we would see chimpanzees occasionally giving birth to human babies. "And that's never happened."

That was our last date.

Did you ask her out because she was intelligent or because she had big tatas?

278 Pyroskank  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:44:33pm

re: #172 Pshawalaw

I'm not sure that we are all talking about the same thing when we cite ID, I believe that it is a distinct interpretation of how a supreme being is involved which we may not all agree with. I'm not sure how else to say it. ID may not be what you think it is.

ID, as I understand it, is the theory that life on Earth is so complex and varied that it suggests that its progress was directed by some intelligent force. Which is all well and good, and an interesting discussion to be sure.

But it's hardly scientific. It is based purely on intuition and common sense, and is utterly untestable.

279 angst  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:44:42pm

re: #264 Agahnim

I think of Prions as zombie proteins, personally. =P

Do you mean zombie zombie or generic TV zombies?

280 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:45:10pm

re: #276 Nevergiveup

Is that a shot at my In-Laws?


So, what do the rings of Saturn look like close up? Got fotos from the last visit?

281 Cicero05  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:45:33pm

re: #277 Eowyn2

Did you ask her out because she was intelligent or because she had big tatas?

I'll just say she had a very intelligent "design."

282 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:45:37pm

re: #254 NoSubmission

As a fan of Street Art...do I have to do everything?

283 astronmr20  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:45:39pm

re: #270 saberry0530

Here's the link for the company that is making garbage eating, oil pooping bacteria.

CAN YA SPARE A FEW BUCKS FOR AN IPO, MISTA?

Bad idea, says me. Read "andromeda strain."

284 lostlakehiker  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:46:08pm

re: #8 frodolives

But it disconfirms ID. After all, what we see is that a new species has evolved. Just like that.

By any standard that would have been enunciated ahead of time, the bacteria that metabolize citrate are not e. coli.

285 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:46:34pm

re: #246 Charles

Why don't you just turn on the Wordpress registration feature?

To encourage more comments from random web surfers!

It only takes about 5 minutes every day or two to delete spam comments. The payoff is I get more real comments and more interactivity.

If it becomes too burdensome, I will indeed require Wordpress registration. For now, I'll give the "free market" a chance.

286 NoSubmission  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:46:40pm

re: #260 buzzsawmonkey
Thanks for the tip, btw. I'd been looking for something to shoot. Street art is so much easier than live moonbats in action.

287 FamHistoryGuy  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:46:50pm

re: #144 Buster Bunny

How old is the Earth? Something along the lines of 4 bil years? Lots of time for stuff to happen over and over and over. Plus galactic contamination.

288 Meremortal  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:47:03pm

re: #216 Shug

OT
Haditha marine preparing to sue traitor Murtha

Where do I send my donation for his legal fund? I hope this case "evolves" into a biggie.

See, not OT after all!

289 protestshooter  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:47:11pm

You guys do know that natural selection and evolution doesn't address biogenesis, right? Can't we all just be friends?

290 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:47:14pm

re: #287 FamHistoryGuy

How old is the Earth? Something along the lines of 4 bil years? Lots of time for stuff to happen over and over and over. Plus galactic contamination.

galactic contamination

291 Alouette  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:47:19pm

re: #233 Cicero05

I met a girl while dating once who told me that she was absolutely certain that evolution was wrong. The reason she was so sure was that if people really evolved from apes, she said, then today we would see chimpanzees occasionally giving birth to human babies. "And that's never happened."

That was our last date.

But occasionally you do see humans give birth to chimpanzees (who then go on to be elected to public office!)

/going to hide now

292 NoSubmission  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:47:34pm

re: #282 WrathofG-d

As a fan of Street Art...do I have to do everything?


I guess there's not Hillary street art. No towering offward glances.

293 protestshooter  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:47:42pm

re: #285 zombie

To encourage more comments from random web surfers!

It only takes about 5 minutes every day or two to delete spam comments. The payoff is I get more real comments and more interactivity.

If it becomes too burdensome, I will indeed require Wordpress registration. For now, I'll give the "free market" a chance.

Wait until you see what happens when you go on vacation!

294 nyc redneck  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:47:45pm

re: #261 ploome hineni

i'm not much of a typist either.
lol

295 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:48:09pm

re: #249 angst

It doesn't need will. The ones that survive better get to reproduce, it's that simple. The E. coli that happened to have a random mutation to metabolize citrate dramatically expanded their population because they was a new energy source to exploit, and there was no competition for it.

Do this in reverse, say with penicillin, and the ones that survive the drug will all have the DNA for penicillinase, an enzyme that destroys penicillin. Then their population will explode because the germs without penicillinase will have perished, reducing the competition.

The mechanism is natural selection.

Can I have your test-tube baby? Let's make monkeys together!

Seriously: Thanks for laying it out so clearly.

296 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:48:41pm

re: #291 Alouette

But occasionally you do see humans give birth to chimpanzees (who then go on to be elected to public office!)

/going to hide now

I believe you have mistaken chimps for horse's asses.

297 jc59  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:48:48pm

It's interesting what constitutes a new "species" in the context of evolution. Minute differences in the ability to metabolize some nutrients means different species, huh?

It turns out that there are differences between human races in the ability to metabolize alcohol. Does this mean Orientals and Caucasians are a different species? Of course not, silly.

"Most biochemical investigations of the flushing phenomenon have focused on aspects of alcohol metabolism. Based on recent findings, a convincing mechanism is the higher accumulation of acetaldehyde in flushing subjects because they have an unusual, less-active liver aldehyde dehydrogenase isozyme (ALDHI). The possibility that an ‘atypical’ alcohol dehydrogenase, which is present in 85–90% of Oriental subjects, can contribute to increased blood acetaldehyde levels in flushing subjects cannot be ruled out"

[Link: alcalc.oxfordjournals.org...]

298 Pshawalaw  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:48:54pm

This discussion continues to get bogged down because the distinction between creationism and intelligent design is blurred. Creationism is not the same as intelligent design.

Unlike creationism, the scientific theory of intelligent design does not claim that modern biology can identify whether the intelligent cause detected through science is supernatural.

Honest critics of intelligent design acknowledge the difference between intelligent design and creationism. University of Wisconsin historian of science Ronald Numbers is critical of intelligent design, yet according to the Associated Press, he "agrees the creationist label is inaccurate when it comes to the ID [intelligent design] movement.

Talk about an afterlife, or the origin of the universe, or any other "supernatural" aspects do not apply. There are three ideas being talked, and only two of them, evolution and intelligent design, are scientifically aligned. Creationism is not scientifically testable. The question isn't whether evolution is real, we have plenty of data to say it is, the question is whether intelligent design is a legitimate scientific pursuit or just another rhetorical alchemy, (i.e., BS).

299 HelloDare  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:49:07pm

Bacterial evolution is not news to me.

The E. Coli in my gut have organized and formed a union.

300 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:49:10pm

Off to lunch.

Bye for now

301 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:49:12pm
302 saberry0530  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:49:21pm

re: #283 astronmr20

Bad idea, says me. Read "andromeda strain."

WHatCHA got against new found areas for oil? You part DEMO?

/(DRIPPING WITH SARC)

303 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:49:22pm

re: #281 Cicero05

I'll just say she had a very intelligent "design."


So either she was intelligently designed in order to attract a mate or her antecedents evolved enough to get her past the introduction. Another 10,000 years and who knows, her descendants might make it to the first date:)

304 Pshawalaw  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:49:29pm

re: #230 astronmr20

YES!

WooHoo!

305 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:49:59pm

re: #292 NoSubmission


not necessarily true.

306 astronmr20  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:50:05pm

re: #302 saberry0530

WHatCHA got against new found areas for oil? You part DEMO?

/(DRIPPING WITH SARC)

You want plastic-eating microbes loose in the world?

307 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:50:28pm

re: #291 Alouette

But occasionally you do see humans give birth to chimpanzees (who then go on to be elected to public office!)

/going to hide now


It happens

308 Pshawalaw  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:50:41pm

re: #278 Pyroskank

Thanks, that is the clarity I was looking for.

309 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:50:52pm

re: #297 jc59

Dude, you should learn what a species is. It has a very clear definition that you should have learned in about 7th or 8th grade.

310 Luigi  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:51:02pm

Well done, Charles.

311 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:51:10pm
312 eastvillageinfidel  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:51:30pm

re: #306 astronmr20

Ooh, that sounds like it would make a great movie! :)

313 NoSubmission  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:51:31pm

re: #305 WrathofG-d


not necessarily true.


That's actually pretty cool!

314 Buster Bunny  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:51:48pm

re: #287 FamHistoryGuy

How old is the Earth? Something along the lines of 4 bil years? Lots of time for stuff to happen over and over and over. Plus galactic contamination.

Yup .. and thats the remarkable bit. The chances of running the same genetic program twice and coming up with a duplicate result are 10^300 in magnitude. Heck that makes the cipher that Microsoft used for identifying ActiveX components look primitive in comparison.

P.S. thats 10 with 300 zeros behind it .. a million is only 10^6

/Big Numbered Bunny

315 Pyroskank  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:51:57pm

re: #298 Pshawalaw

This discussion continues to get bogged down because the distinction between creationism and intelligent design is blurred. Creationism is not the same as intelligent design.

Talk about an afterlife, or the origin of the universe, or any other "supernatural" aspects do not apply. There are three ideas being talked, and only two of them, evolution and intelligent design, are scientifically aligned. Creationism is not scientifically testable. The question isn't whether evolution is real, we have plenty of data to say it is, the question is whether intelligent design is a legitimate scientific pursuit or just another rhetorical alchemy, (i.e., BS).

That's a partial definition of what ID isn't, but says very little about what it IS. Was my interpretation of ID's main thesis inaccurate in some way?

316 Pyroskank  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:52:32pm

Oops, nevermind. You guys is fast.

317 astronmr20  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:52:33pm

re: #312 eastvillageinfidel

They made one. Out of the book. Go rent Andromeda Strain.

Unless you are joking...

318 protestshooter  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:52:36pm

re: #297 jc59

It's interesting what constitutes a new "species" in the context of evolution. Minute differences in the ability to metabolize some nutrients means different species, huh?

It turns out that there are differences between human races in the ability to metabolize alcohol. Does this mean Orientals and Caucasians are a different species? Of course not, silly.

Do you seriously think this is a chain of logic to be taken seriously?

Bacteria like e. coli have zillions of "strains" and the difference between different "strains" and different "species" is fairly arbitrary. Perhaps now that these new ones have come along they'll change the definition. In the meantime it was a convenient heuristic.

The fact that they split fish into a zillion strains that are perfectly capable of hybridizing (they just don't get a chance because they're in a pond 10 feet over) but yet dogs are all one species shows how arbitrary this whole business is. If you want to have a meaningful debate about evolution you're going to have to stop fixating on the term.

319 angst  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:52:54pm

re: #273 zombie

I think Darwin posed the questions.
Mendel, Benzer, Leakey et al. came up with the answers.

320 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:53:06pm

re: #313 NoSubmission

yea, you will probably like Woostercollective.com, Banksy, Dan Witz, Fafi, Swoon, Shepard Farley, etc.

On that note....I'm out of LGF for a while.

321 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:54:00pm

re: #303 Eowyn2

So either she was intelligently designed in order to attract a mate or her antecedents evolved enough to get her past the introduction. Another 10,000 years and who knows, her descendants might make it to the first date:)

PIMF - PAST the first date

322 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:54:35pm

re: #258 Eowyn2

That wasnt very nice. There are people who deny evolution but the only people who are out there trying to tie every conservative into the 'right wing Judeo-Christian conservative nazi' camp are generally members of the left wing commie anarchist camp:)

Exactly. And, whether we like it or not, the "left wing commie anarchist camp" controls academia, the media, and social discourse in general. They have and will tar ALL conservatives and ALL Republicans with the "anti-science" sobriquet. And they will make sure it sticks.

Creationists are free to believe whatever they want to believe -- I have no dispute with freedom of thought or freedom of religion. But as a purely strategic maneuver, they need to realize that they are becoming a major embarrassment for the Republican Party, and they should stop pressing forward with this issue, because it will bring us all down. We have to spend WAY to much energy trying to get our act together, when we should be concentrating on battling the moonbats.

323 grumpy old codger  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:54:41pm

Wow! There is no real difficulty with working ID into the
Christian mind set. But, is the Big Liz disappointed?

324 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:54:48pm

Just who the hell is in charge over there?

"Top Defense Ministry official: If Shalit is not released, Rafah stays closed
Hours before ceasefire kicks in, Amos Gilad grants Ynet interview in which he stresses kidnapped soldier definitely part of truce agreement with Hamas. 'Ceasefire only way to bring about Shalit's release,' Gilad says"

325 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:54:49pm

re: #313 NoSubmission

did you get the car wash email?
natural selection at work

326 MellyMel  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:55:00pm

This topic always reminds me of a cartoon I saw a while back:

One black squirrel is talking to another. Both are looking at blacktop road with a yellow line down the middle and the first one says to the other "Geez, what's next, a yellow line?"

327 angst  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:55:22pm

re: #295 zombie

Can I have your test-tube baby? Let's make monkeys together!

Seriously: Thanks for laying it out so clearly.

If you knew my monkeys, you'd rescind your offer! But, thanks, seriously.

328 eastvillageinfidel  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:55:35pm

re: #317 astronmr20

I wasn't joking. And i did see see the Andromeda Strain a long time ago. I guess I forgot the plastic eating bit.

329 Buster Bunny  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:55:39pm

ok .. well .. after a heaped discussion .. i'm evolving back to the primordial economic soup that pays my bills.

Time to get back on the horse.

Lovely chat guys

/Byebye Bunny

330 A.W.  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:55:58pm

I think there is no denhing that evolution is occuring now. Whether it is an origin or not is just a logical surmise. if you have faith, of course you can deny it, but that is not science.

That said, while i don't think the case has yet been made for ID, i say in the universities we should be open to any idea.

Finally, I will say this at the same time. There is equally no doubt that darwinism contributed to eugenics. Which is not an argument against evolution, btw. It is merely a warning from history not to be fool enough to think you can give evolution a hand. Eugenics is a misapplication of darwinian thought, and thus the result of evolution as much as the crusades were the result of christianity, even as first crusaders violated every principle of christianity. And if islamofascism is a misapplication of islam, then you can't deny that islam is an essential element of it.

331 NoSubmission  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:56:00pm

re: #325 Eowyn2

did you get the car wash email?
natural selection at work


Oh YEA!

332 protestshooter  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:56:53pm

re: #322 zombie

But as a purely strategic maneuver, they need to realize that they are becoming a major embarrassment for the Republican Party, and they should stop pressing forward with this issue, because it will bring us all down. We have to spend WAY to much energy trying to get our act together, when we should be concentrating on battling the moonbats.

This kind of thing is one of the things that greatly slowed me down from switching camps. There's a lot of really scary fuzzy thinking with the religious right.

333 brickthruplateglasswindow  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:57:07pm

re: #306 astronmr20

You want plastic-eating microbes loose in the world?

Maybe they can design some pill bottle child safety top only bacteria?

334 astronmr20  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:58:22pm

re: #328 eastvillageinfidel

Ahhh sorrie. (:

Yes.. it started mutating rapidly and one of the strains eats plastic. Was bad news for a jet pilot...

335 Pshawalaw  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:58:25pm

re: #315 Pyroskank

That's a partial definition of what ID isn't, but says very little about what it IS. Was my interpretation of ID's main thesis inaccurate in some way?

I'm no expert on ID, just getting a grip on this new idea,, that is why I asked if it isn't different from creationism. And, my education on what ID is and isn't is really confined to the first page I linked, they seem to be attempting to create a new science.

336 theparson  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:58:37pm

If you could prove beyond any doubt that ID is exactly how the universe came into being there would be many who would not believe.

And,

If you could prove beyond any doubt that Evolution is how the universe came into being there would be many who would not believe.

I passionately believe what I believe about the origins of all things. But, I do not insist that you believe as I believe.

Goodnight, and have a pleasant tomorrow!

337 Agahnim  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:58:45pm

re: #279 angst

Do you mean zombie zombie or generic TV zombies?

Generic TV zombies. From what I've been taught, they have a huge denaturation point so you can't burn them like normal proteins, and they infect the regular proteins to become like them (zombie immortality and zombie bites!)

338 jc59  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:59:03pm

re: #309 Killgore Trout

Maybe if you had gone beyond the 8th grade you would know what I was talking about.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

339 NoSubmission  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:59:15pm

Gotta run. Gn'ite lizards! Play nice.

340 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:59:48pm
341 beachkatie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 4:59:52pm

re: #123 Buster Bunny

Remember G_d took rib from adam to make Eve!

342 protestshooter  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:00:26pm

re: #339 NoSubmission

Gotta run. Gn'ite lizards! Play nice.

g'night!

343 mean Gene  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:00:57pm

I am not going to play unless we all stipulate to the exact same definitions of all the various terms:

Evolution
Intelligent design
(others?)

Both those terms mean so many different things to posters here.
How can we have a real conversation, much less an honest debate when we don't agree on definitions.
(It's not like we don't have an "LGF Dictionary" you know?)

344 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:01:07pm

re: #322 zombie

I agree, to a point. We dont need to be anti-science but I cannot hide my beliefs behind closed doors. Sadly, the extreme left holds events strictly to bring out a response from average Christians and Jews. Like Fulsom street fair you attended not too long ago (what kind of body soap do you use after something like that and does it work?)

Well gotta go to work.

345 Pshawalaw  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:01:13pm

re: #336 theparson

ID is a third choice from the two ideas you present; it isn't creationism, nor is it evolution. It is a new formulation.

346 right_on_target  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:02:05pm

re: #188 WrathofG-d

I guess Olmert never read about the Trojan horse.

Trojan Horse? They'll bring in the WHOLE herd.

347 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:02:14pm

re: #330 A.W.

That said, while i don't think the case has yet been made for ID, i say in the universities we should be open to any idea.

You do? OK, would you support teaching in a Fluid Dynamics class that heat is a substance call "caloric" that has negative weight? Should we teach that fire is caused by phlogiston? How about Ptolemaic cycloids as the explantion for the orbits of the planets?

Good plan. Let's just open up the universities to any idea.

I'm signing my kid up for "1+1=3: Deconstructing Math Through Postmodern Critical Thinking."

348 jc59  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:02:43pm

re: #340 buzzsawmonkey

349 angst  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:02:44pm

re: #317 astronmr20

They made one. Out of the book. Go rent Andromeda Strain.

Unless you are joking...

I was just going to recommend that book! That's a perfect example of an organism that acquires a helpful mutation and then explodes to fill an empty niche. Notice also how it has to "balance" its deadliness with survival. Bacteria are much more successful if they don't kill off their hosts.

Very deadly germs are very unsuccessful, evolutionarily speaking. Successful germs like Lactobacillus acidophilus are everywhere because they don't make us sick, thus we spread them around and don't try to kill them off.

350 experiencedtraveller  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:02:45pm

It would be interesting to know the statistics for this 'type' of thread.

Does LGF get more visits or less? More comments or less?

If the goal is to attract debate it would seem to be a very successful subject.

351 Pshawalaw  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:02:55pm

re: #343 mean Gene

I am not going to play unless we all stipulate to the exact same definitions of all the various terms:

Evolution
Intelligent design
(others?)

Both those terms mean so many different things to posters here.
How can we have a real conversation, much less an honest debate when we don't agree on definitions.
(It's not like we don't have an "LGF Dictionary" you know?)

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! My position exactly.

352 JCM  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:03:23pm
353 angst  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:04:25pm

re: #337 Agahnim

Generic TV zombies. From what I've been taught, they have a huge denaturation point so you can't burn them like normal proteins, and they infect the regular proteins to become like them (zombie immortality and zombie bites!)

Then prions are excellent zombies. In fact, just like zombies they are the borderline between living things and non-living things.

354 Yankee Division Son  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:04:36pm

re: #347 zombie

Good plan. Let's just open up the universities to any idea.

I'm signing my kid up for "1+1=3: Deconstructing Math Through Postmodern Critical Thinking."

So that's where Obama learned about the 57 United States

355 Pshawalaw  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:04:40pm

re: #352 JCM

Where do you people find these things, roflmao.

356 lostlakehiker  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:04:50pm

re: #86 schneidballs

You turn the meaning of the word `evolution' on its head, and offer a new and different definition. No fair. No fair redefining a word, so as to confuse the debate.

Evolution, as a word, refers to changes in a population genome that have consequences for the population phenotype, and that are adaptive.

That is just what happened here. The new species, e. coli-citrateeatingii, say, has a different genome. The different genes code up a different bug with different biochemistry, and the new bug can eat citrate.

Now whether that happened as a result of introducing new genes so that the new species has more DNA than the old, or as the result of swapping around some of the code that was already there, or even as a result of deleting some genes that had had the effect of interfering with citrate metabolism, is beside the point. Quite possibly, e-coli-eatii is less well adapted to the human gut than e-coli-control-natural. But it's better adapted to the lab environment it's been living in. It has evolved.

Take an analogy. Suppose I tear out some pages of a book on chess openings having to do with opening Pawn to King Knight 4. I replace it with the simple instruction to not make this move; it loses.

My book is shorter. It's also better. Persons following the book will win more often following my new book than they did following my old book.

If chess books were like evolution, nobody would write them. We'd just have computers using opening books and playing, and the losers would be erased and the winners duplicated, together with their opening books. And then we'd "mutate" their opening books a little by occasionally adding instructions at random, or deleting a few. This oversimplifies, because there's also sex and gene swapping and all that. But still. Doesn't it stand to reason that the chess books would improve over time, and the chess programs? The random mutations in their opening books are random. But which random mutations survive is NOT random. Mutations that instruct the chess robot to start out with P-KN4 and follow with P-KB3 DIE, because the opposing computer will checkmate them on move 2. That's not random. Bad moves die, good moves live. The intelligent designer is either this reality, or the clever programmer who found a way to get the programs to improve themselves over time. Nobody is directly writing the opening books, using intelligence and forethought to put in good moves. Not in this scenario.

357 Pshawalaw  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:05:33pm

gonna run, Bill O' is on. goodnite lizards

358 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:06:00pm

re: #332 protestshooter

This kind of thing is one of the things that greatly slowed me down from switching camps. There's a lot of really scary fuzzy thinking with the religious right.

EXACTLY! And there are 10 million, 20 million other voters exactly like you who simply have been scared away from switching by creationists and other extremists demanding a place at the table in the conservative camp.

If we could get them to switch, we could break the political back of moonbattism forever. And the only way we're going to get them to switch is to make "neo-conservatism" appear to be free from the trappings of 19th century thought.

359 nyc redneck  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:07:43pm

re: #340 buzzsawmonkey

It appears that ID advocates will reject evolution as "not proven" on the grounds that evolution "cannot be shown to occur under laboratory conditions"--thereby attempting to use scientific criteria in an effort to subvert science, in much the same way as CAIR uses the commitment to free speech to subvert free speech.

When, however, as here, evolution is demonstrated under laboratory conditions, ID advocates will move the goalposts on the grounds that the evolutionary activity shown is done with microcellular organisms instead of complex vertebrates.

are you channeling michelle o.?
she always complains abt. how "they always raise the bar. . . "

360 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:08:39pm

Did I say Evolution?

Transgender activists remove clothing in public
'We're going to see this all over the nation. This was a trial balloon'

[Link: worldnetdaily.com...]

361 rawmuse  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:09:33pm

re: #332 protestshooter

This kind of thing is one of the things that greatly slowed me down from switching camps. There's a lot of really scary fuzzy thinking with the religious right.

True, but no party has a monopoly on fuzzy thinking, trust me on that one.

362 aidos  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:10:12pm

Wake me when the coli starts crawling out of the petri dish, eating bananas, and swinging around the rafters of the lab.

363 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:10:49pm
364 JCM  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:11:02pm

re: #355 Pshawalaw

Where do you people find these things, roflmao.

They have the best theory on Global Warming too.

365 protestshooter  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:11:07pm

re: #358 zombie

EXACTLY! And there are 10 million, 20 million other voters exactly like you who simply have been scared away from switching by creationists and other extremists demanding a place at the table in the conservative camp.

I suspect you're right. And I'll go so far as to say that if the dems convince me they're not going to get us all killed I'll probably go back to voting democrat in most elections. (I'm pretty much a 9/11 Republican although if the right showed some fiscal conservatism that would help too).

Oh - good luck with the oaks thing if you make it back there again. They were getting very, very wild today. Frankly I think RunningWolf was drunk - he was swearing up a storm at the police. I don't think I'll be able to drop by again tomorrow but we'll see.

(today's pictures/video [Link: www.protestshooter.com...] )

366 protestshooter  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:11:55pm

re: #361 rawmuse

True, but no party has a monopoly on fuzzy thinking, trust me on that one.

I'm going to assume here you've never seen my website. I might have seen a moonbat or two in my time.

367 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:11:59pm

re: #360 Nevergiveup

Did I say Evolution?

Transgender activists remove clothing in public
'We're going to see this all over the nation. This was a trial balloon'

[Link: worldnetdaily.com...]

That's been going on in San Francisco for years already. Apparently you missed my report on the Trans March 2007.

Topless transsexuals and a whole lot more.

368 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:12:43pm

re: #362 aidos

Wake me when the coli starts crawling out of the petri dish, eating bananas, and swinging around the rafters of the lab.

That already happened. It's called "life on earth."

369 Dar ul Harb  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:13:19pm

re: #253 Agahnim

[T]his cell likely went through a heck of a lot of substitution mutations to create the enzyme that allows it to metabolize citrate.

E. Coli has the ability to metabolise lactose in environments with limited glucose (this is the environment the mutation occured in) so perhaps a mutation occured in this pathway?

Right, it'd be interesting to know what existing enzymes were adapted for the citrate pathway. From the standpoint of bacterial evolution, the enzymes that produced the citrate-metabolizing pathways were likely already being used for something else. Under the pressure of mutation, useless structures or functions tend not to be conserved (think about the blind fish in the cave), because there's no selective advantage in preserving them, and a resource penalty for maintaining them.

370 theatheistjew  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:13:21pm

Kudos to LGF for posting this. I'm kind of surprised because LGF probably has a lot of Young Earth Creationists who are regulars here.
Secondly, I'm surprised that most of the comments are done by those who accept evolution and all the overwhelming evidence for it.
Thirdly, I thought this story would show up on my blog before LGF showed it.

It is good to see the rational right emerging.

371 Render  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:13:55pm

You’re disgusted with the GOP for giving us such a “crappy” candidate?

You think that your little political issues are more important than winning this war?

So you’re going to send the GOP a “message” by not voting in this election?

Your null vote is a vote for Obama and the DNC.

The same Obama that said this...

"I'm the only major candidate who opposed this war from the beginning; and as president, I will end it.

"Second, I will cut tens of billions of dollars in wasteful spending. I will cut investments in unproven missile defense systems. I will not weaponize space. I will slow our development of future combat systems.

"I will institute an independent defense priorities board to ensure that the Quadrennial Review is not used to justify unnecessary defense spending.

"Third, I will set a goal for a world without nuclear weapons. To seek that goal, I will not develop nuclear weapons; I will seek a global ban on the production of fissile material; and I will negotiate with Russia to take our ICBMs off hair-trigger alert, and to achieve deep cuts in our nuclear arsenal."

[Link: www.ibdeditorials.com...]

Obama did not say “win” this war he clearly said “end it.”

In war the only opposite of the word “win” is “lose” because a draw is only a postponement.

An Obama who has said this repeatedly...

“Bringing Our Troops Home

Obama will immediately begin to remove our troops from Iraq. He will remove one to two combat brigades each month, and have all of our combat brigades out of Iraq within 16 months. Obama will make it clear that we will not build any permanent bases in Iraq. He will keep some troops in Iraq to protect our embassy and diplomats; if al Qaeda attempts to build a base within Iraq, he will keep troops in Iraq or elsewhere in the region to carry out targeted strikes on al Qaeda.”

[Link: www.barackobama.com...]

As if a crushed and rapidly dissolving al Qaeda in Iraq was Iraq’s only problem in the post Saddam world. What message does this send to those nations, (Turkey, Qatar, and Djibouti), in that region that already have large US bases? What happens 15 months later to the last one or two US brigades in Iraq as the resurgent Iranian trained, supplied, and led Shia militias close down Iraq’s only ports of access to the sea? What happens to the US allied Iraqi military when they are cut off from their American sources of supply?

What message has Obama sent to the enemy by revealing his timetable like this? Not just to the enemy who now knows that if Obama is elected they only have to wait 16 months to retake all that they have lost over the last eight years. Not just to those nations in the region still sitting on the fence, what has Obama’s 16 months until enemy victory message sent to to our tenuous allies in the region?

And you think you’re sending a message to the GOP by not pulling the right lever?

[Link: www.ford.utexas.edu...]

I can’t hear your message, it’s drowned out by other messages.

THAT’S
THE
WAY,
R

372 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:14:35pm

re: #367 zombie

That's been going on in San Francisco for years already. Apparently you missed my report on the Trans March 2007.

Topless transsexuals and a whole lot more.

I may have subconsciously blocked it out for reasons of sanity!

373 protestshooter  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:14:47pm

re: #370 theatheistjew

Kudos to LGF for posting this. I'm kind of surprised because LGF probably has a lot of Young Earth Creationists who are regulars here.

One of the things I like about LGF is the crowd in the comments isn't what you would assume. I wish I had more time to spend here.

Speaking of which - gotta go - have fun everybody!

374 Ojoe  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:15:12pm
375 EC Marm  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:15:37pm

re: #322 zombie

But as a purely strategic maneuver, they need to realize that they are becoming a major embarrassment for the Republican Party, and they should stop pressing forward with this issue, because it will bring us all down. We have to spend WAY to much energy trying to get our act together, when we should be concentrating on battling the moonbats.


I spent a couple of days the past weekend speaking with a moonbat (relative by marriage). There really is no need to attempt to change the point of view of those folks. It won't happen, no matter how much logic is used against them. The use no reason to settle on their thought processes and no amount of reason will change their point of view. From the history of Israel to the Holocaust, to Ron Paul, to Barack Obama, to exploring and exploiting this countries own energy resources, they are totally dependent on others to formulate their opinions for them. It is truly sad and disheartening, but true. It is a battle which can not be won.
Signed,
Dis &hearts ened

376 loflyer  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:16:00pm

re: #362 aidos

Wake me when the coli starts crawling out of the petri dish, eating bananas, and swinging around the rafters of the lab.

Exactly, when scientists have microbes turning our sewage into oil, then you might perk my interest. Watching 40,000 generations X 12 microbes has got to have sidelined a promising undergraduate or two...

377 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:16:08pm

re: #65 JohnH

I do not know a single creationist who would have any problems with what occurred.

I will observe that if it took 31,500 generations for what appears to be one change to occur in a protected environment, extrapolating this to humans and assuming a generation averages 20 years, this one change would take 630,000 years.

'Jes sayin'......

A mere blink in the geologic eye. 630,000 years is the time between Yellowstone eruptions, barely enough time to be recorded into stone.

378 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:16:16pm

re: #365 protestshooter

I won't be able to make it today.

Truth is, I don't care fiddle, I don't care a fig about this stupid oak tree protest. I only cover it because everyone else is interested!

379 ornery elephant  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:16:17pm

re: #358 zombie

EXACTLY! And there are 10 million, 20 million other voters exactly like you who simply have been scared away from switching by creationists and other extremists demanding a place at the table in the conservative camp.

If we could get them to switch, we could break the political back of moonbattism forever. And the only way we're going to get them to switch is to make "neo-conservatism" appear to be free from the trappings of 19th century thought.

zombie, are you actually calling creationists "extremists"? Did I misunderstand that?

Also, I think the place mats at the table of the conservative camp still have placemats that read "One Nation Under G_d"

380 rawmuse  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:16:22pm

re: #366 protestshooter

Yes, I am very familiar with your work, and have heard you interviewed on KSFO. Good on ya!

381 Geepers  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:16:37pm

theatheistjew says:

I'm kind of surprised because LGF probably has a lot of Young Earth Creationists who are regulars here.

And you would know this how?

382 Ojoe  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:16:49pm

re: #371 Render

With Obama's approach our enemies will eventually become our overlords.

383 VegasRick  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:16:59pm

re: #367 zombie

That's been going on in San Francisco for years already. Apparently you missed my report on the Trans March 2007.

Topless transsexuals and a whole lot more.

What is it with these lunatics that they never spell the word "Too" properly?

384 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:18:09pm

re: #371 Render

I think you might have posted this in the wrong thread, but I'm dinging you up anyway.

385 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:20:30pm

re: #384 Charles

I think you might have posted this in the wrong thread, but I'm dinging you up anyway.

That posting can never be wrong!

386 JCM  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:20:41pm

re: #371 Render

Damn the one d+ng limit!

Peta-d+ngs!

387 Render  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:20:43pm

re: #384 Charles

I couldn't figure out which thread to post it in, there's so many...

THANK
YOU,
R

388 Dan G.  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:21:07pm

re: #140 angst

Iodine (betadine) will deactive prions.

389 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:21:37pm

Heh. I'm just watching the spy, and noticing how much more rating is going on these days.

More than a few people really hated this idea, and bashed me quite severely for adding it to LGF. But it seems to be getting quite popular.

I must have ... wait for it ... designed it intelligently.

Ba da bump.

390 Ringo the Gringo  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:21:37pm

I'm curious: Is there anyone here that believes in literal, biblical creationism?....(7 days, "let there be light", 4000 year old earth, etc)

391 JCM  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:22:17pm

re: #388 Dan G.

Iodine (betadine) will deactive prions.

Are you advocating prionicide?
Is that legal in all 57 States?
/

392 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:22:19pm

re: #387 Render

I couldn't figure out which thread to post it in, there's so many...

THANK
YOU,
R

Just keep posting it in every thread between now and November 4th. And twice on Sundays.

393 angst  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:22:22pm

re: #201 Eowyn2

could explain the angst.

Yes, it certainly could.

394 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:22:27pm

re: #379 ornery elephant

zombie, are you actually calling creationists "extremists"? Did I misunderstand that?

No, you didn't misunderstand. I wasn't aware that was a controversial opinion.

Also, I think the place mats at the table of the conservative camp still have placemats that read "One Nation Under G_d"

And your point is...?

You aren't one of those people who thinks that by accepting scientific reality you must then necessarily deny the existence of God, are you?

395 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:22:52pm

re: #390 Ringo the Gringo

I'm curious: Is there anyone here that believes in literal, biblical creationism?....(7 days, "let there be light", 4000 year old earth, etc)

Yes, there are absolutely a few of those around. They've been posting in the ID threads.

396 unclassifiable  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:23:07pm

re: #389 Charles

I think it evolved from the original banishment stick.

397 kenneth  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:23:45pm

re: #178 Charles

One of my favorite cultural events ever. The Sokal Affair is a watershed event that exposed the idiocy & fraus at the heart of post-modern philosophy.

The Sokal affair (also Sokal's hoax) was a hoax by physicist Alan Sokal perpetrated on the editorial staff and readership of the postmodern cultural studies journal Social Text (published by Duke University). In 1996, Sokal, a professor of physics at New York University, submitted a paper of nonsense camouflaged in jargon for publication in Social Text, as an experiment to see if a journal in that field would, in Sokal's words: "publish an article liberally salted with nonsense if (a) it sounded good and (b) it flattered the editors' ideological preconceptions."[1]

The paper, titled "Transgressing the Boundaries: Towards a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity"[2], was published in the Spring/Summer 1996 "Science Wars" issue of Social Text, which at that time had no peer review process, and so did not submit it for outside review. On the day of its publication, Sokal announced in another publication, Lingua Franca, that the article was a hoax, calling his paper "a pastiche of left-wing cant, fawning references, grandiose quotations, and outright nonsense", which was "structured around the silliest quotations I could find about mathematics and physics" made by postmodernist academics.


I have wondered if a similar hoax can be perpetrated on Global Warming...hmmmm...

398 tokyobk  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:23:57pm

re: #382 Ojoe

With Obama's approach our enemies will eventually become our overlords.

Hi Ojoe, did you catch Obama`s father`s day speech? I was once talking to you about his "Cosby" speeches to black audiences. That`s what I meant and its not suprising he is rolling that out for a larger audience in a move right for the general election.

399 mean Gene  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:24:05pm

re: #388 Dan G.

Iodine (betadine) will deactive prions.

Doesn't that really taint the flavor of the beef/venison/lamb though?
;)

400 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:24:26pm

re: #332 protestshooter

This kind of thing is one of the things that greatly slowed me down from switching camps. There's a lot of really scary fuzzy thinking with the religious right.

Between this and the really scary fuzzy thinking of the left, I've usually stayed away from both camps. Not fond of the YECs who want ID or whatever they brand Biblical 6-Day creationism as in the schools, and not fond of the wacky left for too many reasons to list here. (Believe me, Charles has not the characters in this box to list my reasons for why I don't like the wacky left.)

Oddly, I find the thinking of both camps (YEC and the left) to be similar, having experienced the blunt end of both.

BTW, I just found out today I passed my professional engineering exam. Now I am a lisenced professional engineer in my state.
Honorary Yooper, PE :-)

401 theatheistjew  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:24:36pm

Geepers, I guess I'm assuming. This is a right wing blog, and many right wingers do not accept evolution.
45% of Americans believe the earth is less than 10,000 years old and reject evolution. A higher percentage of Repubs are in that camp by a mile, while Democrats tend to accept real science more readily.

402 Wookieelips  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:24:57pm

re: #371 Render


Thank you for that.

The people in danger over there after Obama's would-be disastrous withdrawel would be my friends and the man I love.

I'd much rather have him over there with a strong military presence that would make everyone more secure than have him sent on some "targeted strike" where our guys could be ambushed or shot down.

I appreciate you pointing these things out to those who are thinking of sitting this election out.

403 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:24:58pm

I believe in coyotes and time as an abstract

404 angst  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:25:55pm

re: #388 Dan G.

Iodine (betadine) will deactive prions.

That is good to know. I wish there were a way to turn that knowledge into something practical to control prion disease in wild animals. I don't like to eat game anymore because of it. I certainly would never eat "wild" game off of a restaurant menu, since game farms are the epicenter of prion disease (in the US, that is).

405 experiencedtraveller  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:26:30pm

re: #401 theatheistjew

Geepers, I guess I'm assuming. This is a right wing blog, and many right wingers do not accept evolution.
45% of Americans believe the earth is less than 10,000 years old and reject evolution. A higher percentage of Repubs are in that camp by a mile, while Democrats tend to accept real science more readily.

Linky?

406 unclassifiable  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:26:35pm

re: #400 Honorary Yooper

Congratulations!

407 goddessoftheclassroom  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:26:36pm

re: #400 Honorary Yooper

Congratulations!

408 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:27:07pm

re: #401 theatheistjew

Geepers, I guess I'm assuming. This is a right wing blog, and many right wingers do not accept evolution.
45% of Americans believe the earth is less than 10,000 years old and reject evolution. A higher percentage of Repubs are in that camp by a mile, while Democrats tend to accept real science more readily.

I'd wager that 70% of Americans don't know the first thing about science or history and only believe what the media indoctrinates them to believe.

409 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:27:13pm

re: #390 Ringo the Gringo

I'm curious: Is there anyone here that believes in literal, biblical creationism?....(7 days, "let there be light", 4000 year old earth, etc)

In fact, they've been dinging down this very thread.

410 Hanoch  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:27:15pm

Charles:

I have to take issue with your post at #37--I think you are missing the point.

The primary bone of contention in all of this is the proposition that human beings evolved from a lower life form. This theory is not provable using the scientific method, i.e., you cannot go into a lab, control for certain variables, and test the theory by turning a chimp into a human being (if you want to try, be my guest). Undoubtedly, you can look at bits of physical evidence (such as your bacteria) and draw certain inferences, but that is a far cry from saying the theory of evolution can be falsified by testing it. The theory of ID is conceptually no different from the theory of evolution: it looks at evidence and, using logical precepts (e.g., that something does not arise from nothing), posits that the world must have had an original source, i.e., a creator. (And, by the way, the two theories are not necessarily inconsistent--there is, in principle, no reason why a creator could not have employed a process of evolution.)

The problem I have with the evolution proponents is that they attempt to elevate the evolution theory over the ID theory on the basis that the evolution theory is qualitatively different, which it is not. For reasons that are not clear to me, they seem to dogmatically accept the theory of evolution as if it were fact. Yet there are innumerable other theories based on incomplete evidence which we do not rush to label as fact. For example, there are those who contend that the dinosaurs were killed by a meteor collision with earth. There is evidence for that, but it is still a theory because it cannot be proven.

411 tokyobk  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:27:45pm

re: #401 theatheistjew

Geepers, I guess I'm assuming. This is a right wing blog, and many right wingers do not accept evolution.

I think of LGF as a safe haven for talking about the real news without MSM spin, not so much "right wing."

412 jc59  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:27:54pm

ID and creationism are not synonymous. In its "weakest" form, ID does not even deny evolution.

413 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:28:15pm

re: #397 kenneth

I found this the other day: Chicken chicken chicken

Be sure to follow along with the charts and graphs here

414 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:28:15pm
415 Dan G.  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:28:21pm

re: #229 astronmr20

Look up aptamers.

416 ornery elephant  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:28:25pm

re: #394 zombie

And your point is...?

My point? Not really a point, just an observation that I'm not sure you and me are looking at the same conservative camp.

And I'm just one of those people that doesn't view a person who believes in Creationism as an extremist.

417 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:28:25pm

re: #406 unclassifiable

re: #407 goddessoftheclassroom

Yeah, now I need new business cards. :-D

418 unclassifiable  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:28:40pm

re: #401 theatheistjew

You are going to get a real shock if you ever step into the lounge.

Maybe you need to rethink where the real diversity is.

419 theatheistjew  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:28:41pm

Anyone who really doesn't understand science, the age of the earth, abiogenesis, and evolution need to watch Potholer54's videos on Youtube with an open mind.
He has a bit of a sense of humour too. And he explains things so that a 10 year old could understand.

420 eastvillageinfidel  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:28:48pm

re: #401 theatheistjew

45% ? That sounds off.

421 loflyer  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:28:52pm

re: #407 goddessoftheclassroom

Congratulations!

Congrats Yooper, what is your field?

422 NonNativeTexan  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:29:18pm

#390 Ringo
Not I

423 Geepers  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:29:40pm

theatheistjew says:

45% of Americans believe the earth is less than 10,000 years old and reject evolution. A higher percentage of Repubs are in that camp by a mile, while Democrats tend to accept real science more readily.

I know you've got links to back up all those contentions, right?

424 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:29:54pm

re: #404 angst

That is good to know. I wish there were a way to turn that knowledge into something practical to control prion disease in wild animals. I don't like to eat game anymore because of it. I certainly would never eat "wild" game off of a restaurant menu, since game farms are the epicenter of prion disease (in the US, that is).

I was in England during the first outbreak of Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, in the early '90s. Scary as hell. That's one of the things that convinced me to stay a vegetarian forever. (I was merely a fledgling vegetarian back then.)

Them prions is nasty business.

425 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:30:00pm

re: #400 Honorary Yooper

BTW, I just found out today I passed my professional engineering exam. Now I am a lisenced professional engineer in my state.
Honorary Yooper, PE :-)

Congratulations.

Governor Granholm says in 5 years we're gonna be blown away. make it happen

426 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:30:06pm

re: #421 loflyer

Congrats Yooper, what is your field?

Environmental engineering. I got my degree in geological engineering.

427 goddessoftheclassroom  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:30:24pm

re: #408 zombie

I'd wager that 70% of Americans don't know the first thing about science or history and only believe what the media indoctrinates them to believe.

I think you're correct.

When one of my junior high students parrots something I know to be slanted, I ask, "How do you know that? Cite your source."

The saddest part of all is that I'd better even more than 70% care about learning at all. Comfort, entertainment, and instant gratification diminish intellectual curiosity in many.

428 theparson  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:30:26pm

re: #390 Ringo the Gringo

Interesting question. It is my understanding, though I'm no scholar on the Hebrew language, that the original word for "day" means a period of time, not necessarily as we understand the 24 hour period. Any language scholars here?

429 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:31:10pm

re: #425 Shug

Congratulations.

Governor Granholm says in 5 years we're gonna be blown away. make it happen

Well, if I'm ever lucky enough to return, I hope she's blown out of office long before then.

Thanks.

430 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:31:18pm

re: #410 Hanoch

Bishop Wilberforce, is that you?

431 JCM  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:31:29pm

re: #413 Killgore Trout

I found this the other day: Chicken chicken chicken

Be sure to follow along with the charts and graphs here

Fried?

432 Three Hundred  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:31:33pm

re: #384 Charles
RE: #371 Render

I think you might have posted this in the wrong thread, but I'm dinging you up anyway.

That would be the Render Hammer Thread.

433 EC Marm  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:31:37pm

re: #347 zombie

I'm signing my kid up for "1+1=3: Deconstructing Math Through Postmodern Critical Thinking."


Many, many years ago I wrote a compiled Cobol program for my son to use. Very professional looking calculator program. However, in the code that was invisible to him, I had intentionally added (+1) to the results of every addition problem. So 1 + 1 actually did return three. I'm pretty sure he got the point, as he is just a few tad credits short of a doctorate in computer science (or EE) now.

434 freetoken  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:31:49pm

re: #390 Ringo the Gringo

I'm curious: Is there anyone here that believes in literal, biblical creationism?....(7 days, "let there be light", 4000 year old earth, etc)

Technically speaking, the Ussherites believe the Earth to be circa 6012 years old (created in 4004 BC).

435 Boogberg  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:31:49pm

re: #350 experiencedtraveller

It would be interesting to know the statistics for this 'type' of thread.

Does LGF get more visits or less? More comments or less?

If the goal is to attract debate it would seem to be a very successful subject.

Well I'm glad to see some debate (disagreement) here. It helps to dispel the notion that LGF is some kind of "echo chamber".

436 Maximu§  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:31:58pm

Well, well another Christian-Bashing thread.......how nice. I would sure hope this isn't being done to drive us Christians away.

437 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:32:01pm

re: #410 Hanoch

so are you saying God Killed the dinosaurs?

438 theatheistjew  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:32:14pm

re: #405 experiencedtraveller

Here is one linky.
And here is another linky.

439 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:32:24pm

re: #390 Ringo the Gringo

I'm curious: Is there anyone here that believes in literal, biblical creationism?....(7 days, "let there be light", 4000 year old earth, etc)

By the way, if you open up an LGF Spy window, you can see them going through the ID-related threads and dinging down every post that supports evolution.

I've been watching it on and off all week.

440 Dan G.  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:32:46pm

re: #391 JCM

Legal and encouraged.

441 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:33:21pm

re: #436 Maximu§

Well, well another Christian-Bashing thread.......how nice. I would sure hope this isn't being done to drive us Christians away.

Excuse me? Where did I "bash Christians?"

442 kenneth  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:33:28pm

re: #371 Render

Significantly, Obama did support the Iraq War from April 2004 to November 2006, a period which coincides to within days the involvement of his friends Tony Rezko, Nadhmi Auchi & Aiham Alsammarae in the Iraqi Chumchumal hydroelectric damn project.

Follow the money.

Obama’s Shifting Positions on Iraq: A Rezko Connection?Obama’s Shifting Positions on Iraq: A Rezko Connection?

443 angst  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:33:53pm

re: #401 theatheistjew

Geepers, I guess I'm assuming. This is a right wing blog, and many right wingers do not accept evolution.
45% of Americans believe the earth is less than 10,000 years old and reject evolution. A higher percentage of Repubs are in that camp by a mile, while Democrats tend to accept real science more readily.

I don't believe that at all. Everyone believes the science that fits their agenda.
The Dems swallowed global warming hook, line and sinker because it plays to all their greatest fears and demonizes their mortal enemies. I think there is a general science illiteracy that cuts across all sociopolitical groups. Look how easily the media uses statistics to manipulate issues, because they know people don't understand statistics very well. I see this all the time in the medical sciences. Every single day.

444 Dan G.  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:34:10pm

re: #399 mean Gene


;) I'd imagine so... The only context I've seen the iodine used in was to treat plasma for transplant, I think (the iodine was then dialyzed out).

445 kalvinb  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:35:04pm

Nobody has an issue with things changing. It's the diverging lines far into the past that people question.

Imagine every creature on the planet is a line going some direction. Evolution argues that all the lines converge to a single point.

Creationism says that some of the lines may converge at some point in the past but not all of them.

Neither of those ideas is scientifically testable, much less provable.

446 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:35:09pm
447 Dan G.  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:35:17pm

re: #404 angst

The best bet for an "in vivo" antiprion drug would be either a neutralizing antibody or an aptamer.

448 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:36:09pm

OT

Per Michael savage show ( live)

Lt. Col. Jeffrey Chessani to be retried in Haditha case

is there no double jeopardy in the military?

449 theatheistjew  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:36:12pm

re: #436 Maximu§

You can be Christian and also accept reality too.
Here is a Christian who accepts evolution.

You can also check out Dr. Ken Miller, a devout Catholic (it is my understanding that many Baptists have a problem accepting Catholics as Christians lol). He was one of the key people who exposed ID for the fraud that it is.

450 Dekar  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:36:14pm

re: #191 Shug

Evolution people: explain Flava Flav

R O F L

451 loflyer  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:36:38pm

re: #426 Honorary Yooper

Environmental engineering. I got my degree in geological engineering.

Cool! Know anything about hardening structures against against earthquakes or tornados?

452 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:36:43pm
453 mean Gene  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:36:46pm

re: #444 Dan G.

;) I'd imagine so... The only context I've seen the iodine used in was to treat plasma for transplant, I think (the iodine was then dialyzed out).

They use bleach in an autoclave to sterilize instruments which must be reused..
As a hunter I was also taught to use bleach to clean knives after cleaning a cervid if the spinal cord is cut.

454 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:37:14pm

An interesting note: I'm beginning to get a lot of emails trying to get me to link to the post at Townhall that claims the Obama birth certification posted at Daily Kos is a fake.

No, it's not a fake. It's genuine. It's been settled.

455 theparson  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:37:23pm

re: #436 Maximu§

As a Christian (one might even say "fundamentalist") I don't see this as Christian bashing. I'm sure there are some who don't like Christians but, I don't like liver and onions. Surely our beliefs are not so fragile that we can't listen to/read dissenting views.

456 tgibson1962  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:37:26pm

re: #168 Gordon Marock

"...is grounded in the fear that if other rational people don't believe as they do, that they might be wrong."

Since mind-reading is apparently your forte, how about giving me the score of the Braves-Rangers gave in time to place a bet?

457 mean Gene  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:37:26pm

re: #448 Shug

OT

Per Michael savage show ( live)

Lt. Col. Jeffrey Chessani to be retried in Haditha case

is there no double jeopardy in the military?

Sad news.
I was really hoping he could move on with his life.

458 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:37:40pm

re: #448 Shug

OT

Per Michael savage show ( live)

Lt. Col. Jeffrey Chessani to be retried in Haditha case

is there no double jeopardy in the military?

When in G-D's name are we ever gonna get serious about fighting this WAR?

459 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:37:41pm

re: #452 buzzsawmonkey

All sorts of weird names boiling up that have been registered for ages but have commented virtually not at all.

Curious indeed.

You're not the only one noticing that.

460 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:38:27pm

re: #445 kalvinb

Neither of those ideas is scientifically testable, much less provable.


Wrong.

461 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:38:35pm
462 Cicero05  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:38:44pm

re: #437 Shug

so are you saying God Killed the dinosaurs?

Noah did. They kept eating the other animals on the ark.

463 HelloDare  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:39:01pm

re: #454 Charles

An interesting note: I'm beginning to get a lot of emails trying to get me to link to the post at Townhall that claims the Obama birth certification posted at Daily Kos is a fake.

No, it's not a fake. It's genuine. It's been settled.

Damn, I was hoping for a throbbing birth certificate.

464 jc59  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:39:05pm

re: #428 theparson

Interesting question. It is my understanding, though I'm no scholar on the Hebrew language, that the original word for "day" means a period of time, not necessarily as we understand the 24 hour period. Any language scholars here?

Even in English, we use units of time symbolically. "Got a minute?"

Forty days in the Hebrew Bible doesn't, I think, mean 40 days literally; 40 symbolizes a period of waiting.

465 Josephine  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:39:58pm

re: #182 jelo

hey..... somebody out there gave me a (-1)..what's up with that?

It's -2 now. I dinged you down for proselytizing and for sounding arrogant while proselytizing. I find it insufferable.

This is a thread about a scientific discovery that could benefit our lives in untold ways.

I like science. I am grateful to scientists. If not for science, I would not be alive today.

466 JCM  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:40:15pm

re: #439 Charles

By the way, if you open up an LGF Spy window, you can see them going through the ID-related threads and dinging down every post that supports evolution.

I've been watching it on and off all week.

I'm tempted to tear my fellow Christians a new one over their behavior regarding this issue. But I will leave it at this.

My fellow Christians. Are your words, behavior and attitude furthering the great commission or hindering it?

Many comments I have seen do nothing for reasonable debate, but damage the testimony of all Christians.

467 EC Marm  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:40:19pm

re: #446 buzzsawmonkey
In the manic, frantic, split second world of the internets circa 2008, it's a little tough to couch my questions in the world of legalese you probably live in. I wasn't upset, I understood.

468 loflyer  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:40:28pm

Whats the deal with Obama's birth certificate? are there any revelations of note?

469 NonNativeTexan  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:40:35pm

#459 Charles
The more the merrier? merrier does not look right, but it passes
the spell test.

470 theparson  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:40:36pm

re: #464 jc59

Pretty much the way I understand it.

471 ornery elephant  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:41:37pm

re: #390 Ringo the Gringo

I'm curious: Is there anyone here that believes in literal, biblical creationism?....(7 days, "let there be light", 4000 year old earth, etc)

:raises hand: I do and I even post on threads about islam and Obama too !

472 angst  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:41:45pm

re: #424 zombie

I was in England during the first outbreak of Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, in the early '90s. Scary as hell. That's one of the things that convinced me to stay a vegetarian forever. (I was merely a fledgling vegetarian back then.)

Them prions is nasty business.

I was a vegetarian when I lived in CA. Then I moved to the midwest, and lapsed. I guess you could say I was an opportunistic vegetarian.

Now I live where hunting is a way of life and we can get our game tested for prion disease if we want to, which I do. I wonder if that all isn't a waste of time considering we use a butcher, and I doubt very much that he washed his equipment with iodine between kills.

473 Dar ul Harb  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:41:46pm

re: #410 Hanoch

On the contrary, evolution can be supported empirically (using experiments) because it makes certain theoretical predictions that can be tested. For example, one of the predictions would be that the human genome, once sequenced, would share the most genetic similarity with the animals (primates) that paleontology and anatomy suggests we are most closely related to based upon structural comparisons. And that prediction was in fact confirmed experimentally.

It would have been a big problem for evolutionary theory if the results of that experiment turned out otherwise.

Similarly, the physicists have theories that can be used to make predictions about certain particles that should exist if their theory is correct. They can do some of the necessary experiments using particle accelerators, or they can do some of them using devices like neutrino detectors. The results will either confirm the theory, or make the physicists have to rethink the theory.

474 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:41:51pm

re: #433 EC Marm

Many, many years ago I wrote a compiled Cobol program for my son to use. Very professional looking calculator program. However, in the code that was invisible to him, I had intentionally added (+1) to the results of every addition problem. So 1 + 1 actually did return three. I'm pretty sure he got the point, as he is just a few tad credits short of a doctorate in computer science (or EE) now.

Ha! Brilliant!

In my day, bringing a calculator to class (K-12) was sufficient grounds for expulsion from school. I know of two kids who actually suffered that fate -- caught red-handed with a calculator in a math test, and kicked out of school permanently. It was considered the worst form of cheating.

Nowadays, I've read that kids are REQUIRED to bring calculators to math class.

I think that explains the downfall of modern America right there.

475 mean Gene  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:42:24pm

re: #464 jc59

Even in English, we use units of time symbolically. "Got a minute?"

Forty days in the Hebrew Bible doesn't, I think, mean 40 days literally; 40 symbolizes a period of waiting.

In the Bible a day can represent a year as a symbol, too.
And sometimes a thousand years can be as a day in God's eye.
Also a ''day'' can be a work shift.....12 hours in Bible times(?)

476 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:42:29pm

re: #189 Kenneth

Right. The Designer was so Intelligent he decided to change the design after 31,500 iterations.

The complexity of the genome of a bacterium is not comparable to the complexity of humans'.

The opportunity for opportunistic adaptation increases exponentially in direct relation to the number of genes, and even moreso when facing an adverse environment for survival.

This is all known stuff. Please spare the 31,500 comparison to humans.

477 HelloDare  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:42:35pm

Malicious dinging a sin.

478 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:43:13pm
479 MrC_5150  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:43:35pm

Just heard on the Savage Nation that Colonel Chessani is going to be re-tried. Sons of bitches.

The person who signed the order is a Colonel with the last name of "Sullivan"

480 angst  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:43:50pm

re: #447 Dan G.

The best bet for an "in vivo" antiprion drug would be either a neutralizing antibody or an aptamer.

Aptamers sound promising, don't they? Small enough to cross the blood/brain barrier and get at those prions where they live. Unfortunately, the illness is so rare that unless the drug can be used for something else, it'll never be developed.

Doesn't someone here have Aptamer for a nic?

481 theparson  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:43:50pm

I think that explains the downfall of modern America right there.

That and SPAM. What is that stuff anyway? And, why am I seeing so many commercials for it all of a sudden?

482 MrC_5150  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:44:30pm

re: #479 MrC_5150

No link that I can find yet.

483 EC Marm  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:45:13pm

re: #454 Charles

Ah yes, birth certification. Not birth certificate. I'm glad you're hedging your words on that. I'm not so sure some fringe group wouldn't be willing to go to the SCOTUS with that green Sentry Safety piece of 24 pound paper.

484 Ceemack  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:45:30pm

re: #241 NonNativeTexan

ID is just one theory of explaining the giant leaps in evolution
that take place in a short amount of time. This shows up in the
holes in the fossil records. The "I" makes the stew on the stove.
The "I" lets it cook a few million years. Every now and then
when the time is right the "I" adds a new ingredient and stirs.
Lets it cook for a few million more years and then adds
another ingredient, stirs, etc.


Ummm...
1. ID is a belief, not a theory--it's based on no objective observations, and generates no falsifiable hypotheses.
2. The apparent "giant leaps" are how evolution really works. It actually results from exactly what was seen in the lab--populations suddenly separated by geographic barriers, and eventually taking different paths to better adapt them to the new, different environments.

485 J.S.  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:45:33pm

hmmm....just some brief comments. There are different five principle kinds of mutations -- 1) point mutations--which can arise from damage (chemical or physical to the DNA) or mispairings during replication 2) deletions 3) position effects (genes in bacteria can move around) 4) inversions / translocations, and 5) changes in chromosome number. (Recall also, that the source of variation is mutation -- this is where the randomness comes in ; but natural selection is not random -- it is the differential survival rates -- who gets to replicate, with some being more successful in terms of reproduction, others less so. It's a two-step process.) I believe the point of the article on the E. coli evolving a new trait is this -- not all the populations (there were 12 of them) developed the new trait (that new trait is the ability to metabolize citrate.) In other words, the evolution was not "inevitable" or "fixed" -- it was based on contingency (contingency was what Stephen Jay Gould emphasized over and over again -- one of Gould's arguments was that if one could re-play the earth's biological history, homo sapiens as we know them today, might not exist.)

486 Maximu§  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:45:34pm

re: #441 Charles

Excuse me? Where did I "bash Christians?"

Cmon Charles, your a smart guy.

These type of threads look innocent, but basically poke us Christians in the eye and you've seen enough of them turn into forest fires to know what I'm talking about.

487 angst  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:45:34pm

re: #449 theatheistjew

You can be Christian and also accept reality too.
Here is a Christian who accepts evolution.

You can also check out Dr. Ken Miller, a devout Catholic (it is my understanding that many Baptists have a problem accepting Catholics as Christians lol). He was one of the key people who exposed ID for the fraud that it is.

The Catholic Church is okay with evolution. It's official.

488 kenneth  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:45:52pm

re: #476 really grumpy big dog Johnson

I'm not sure what your point was, but I was being sarcastic.

489 JCM  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:46:12pm

re: #474 zombie

Ha! Brilliant!

In my day, bringing a calculator to class (K-12) was sufficient grounds for expulsion from school. I know of two kids who actually suffered that fate -- caught red-handed with a calculator in a math test, and kicked out of school permanently. It was considered the worst form of cheating.

Nowadays, I've read that kids are REQUIRED to bring calculators to math class.

I think that explains the downfall of modern America right there.

David Gelernter, MIT math prof and Unibomber victim wrote and article on that. He was adamant kids need to learn first principals first, become skill in the basics before using a calculator.

490 Mats  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:46:42pm

Great.
Bacteria that turns into bacteria is "evidence" for evolution, and evidence against ID.

WIth such a low sales resistence, no wonder that the darwiniacs don't allow scientists to present the evidence that goes against their religious myth.

491 unclassifiable  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:46:59pm

re: #417 Honorary Yooper

You stay at one job long enough to get a business card?

I change locations and job titles so much if I had a business card it would say...

Hi, I'm unclassifiable. Take a good look because for the next few months your company is going to wring every waking minute out of me before they shove me out the door.

For the next few months feel free to contact me by yelling across the floor for "that guy that's changing stuff".

I don't understand your swell phone system well enough to use it (despite the fact I have a couple of decades of financial programming on what I used to think were some pretty sophisticated systems).

Unfortunately your system administrator said it would take the entire time of my contract to get me set up on your email system. That, and of course, the ISP I have my public email account with is blocked.

Cell phone? Are you kidding? You got to sleep every once in a while.

Aloha

492 theparson  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:47:36pm

re: #478 buzzsawmonkey

Very good post! And, it pretty much sums up my belief system. I believe God created the heavens and the earth. But, I don't know how He did so. I'm content to leave Him in charge of how he does things.

493 angst  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:47:36pm

re: #465 Josephine

It's -2 now. I dinged you down for proselytizing and for sounding arrogant while proselytizing. I find it insufferable.

This is a thread about a scientific discovery that could benefit our lives in untold ways.

I like science. I am grateful to scientists. If not for science, I would not be alive today.

Most of us wouldn't be alive today. The germ theory of disease saved our a**es. Everything else is just medicine at the margins.

494 mean Gene  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:47:41pm

re: #481 theparson

I think that explains the downfall of modern America right there.

That and SPAM. What is that stuff anyway? And, why am I seeing so many commercials for it all of a sudden?

I'd hate to slam SPAM (spiced ham) because it would probably spark a hotter debate than this one taking place here.

But I haven't had it in over 40 years.
When the doctor told mom and dad to cut down on salt/sodium we looked at the label and out it went.
Even the ''lower sodium'' version is way too high.

495 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:48:04pm

re: #490 Mats

Great.
Bacteria that turns into bacteria is "evidence" for evolution, and evidence against ID.

WIth such a low sales resistence, no wonder that the darwiniacs don't allow scientists to present the evidence that goes against their religious myth.

If you want to see where "Mats" is coming from, start here and read the following comments:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

496 hadanuf  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:48:07pm

When the bacteria evolves an eye or evolves to becomes a sponge, or some other being, call me. Just because it adapts to it's environment and eats what's available, like a moth that becomes darker because its favorite hangout becomes darker, and all the lighter siblings are picked off by predators. It sounds more like adaptation that evolution.

497 bubbalouey  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:48:27pm

re: #401 theatheistjew

"...Democrats tend to accept real science more readily."


Global warming?
Democrats seem to accept any science more readily. You really don't have a point here.

498 tokyobk  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:48:31pm

re: #478 buzzsawmonkey

Please look at the post here.

"Yom" is a literal day. It is used throughout the Torah in its literal sense. B`sheshet Yamaim asah adonai et ha shamaim v`et ha aretz is meant that literally the Lord created the skys and earth in seven days. It is science that has made religion modefy its claims. Not that this is proof of no god but probably that humans wrote the holy scriptures.

499 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:48:40pm
500 saberry0530  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:49:01pm

re: #401 theatheistjew

Geepers, I guess I'm assuming. This is a right wing blog, and many right wingers do not accept evolution.
45% of Americans believe the earth is less than 10,000 years old and reject evolution. A higher percentage of Repubs are in that camp by a mile, while Democrats tend to accept real science more readily.

I'm just wondering how the Gorebull warming fits into that theory?

501 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:49:32pm

I mean, really, "Mats." You should be embarrassed by what you tried to pull in that thread.

502 HelloDare  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:49:54pm
503 NonNativeTexan  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:50:18pm

#484 Ceemack

I do not consider the e -coli experiment a giant leap.
The giant leap part hinges on the short amount of time it took
to make the leap, thus not allowing for thousands of iterations.
Belief, theory I have no quarrel with either.

504 experiencedtraveller  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:50:19pm

re: #438 theatheistjew

Market research 101. Give me the desired result and I'll craft you a poll.

I wouldn't bet my ranch on your sources to support sweeping political generalizations.

505 theparson  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:50:44pm

re: #494 mean Gene

I would like to go on record as stating that SPAM was not the product of intelligent design. Intelligent advertising, maybe.

506 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:50:52pm

re: #297 jc59

It's interesting what constitutes a new "species" in the context of evolution. Minute differences in the ability to metabolize some nutrients means different species, huh?

It turns out that there are differences between human races in the ability to metabolize alcohol. Does this mean Orientals and Caucasians are a different species? Of course not, silly.

"Most biochemical investigations of the flushing phenomenon have focused on aspects of alcohol metabolism. Based on recent findings, a convincing mechanism is the higher accumulation of acetaldehyde in flushing subjects because they have an unusual, less-active liver aldehyde dehydrogenase isozyme (ALDHI). The possibility that an ‘atypical’ alcohol dehydrogenase, which is present in 85–90% of Oriental subjects, can contribute to increased blood acetaldehyde levels in flushing subjects cannot be ruled out"

[Link: alcalc.oxfordjournals.org...]

This article was published prior to the advancements in understanding that preclude theories of race as valid. There are no distinct human races, merely variable adaptations of humans who have lived for many generations in different environmental circumstances.

"Race" was created before written history, and has been used ever since to justify the subjucation of some societies to others. It was chillingly used to justify the Nazi exterminations in the period that ended with the end of WWII.

To this day, the vast majority of people believe in "race". In fact, many societally-defined minorities cling to the concept of race even more than those who are not societally-defined as minorities, because it provides unique status otherwise unattainable.

Do not confuse societal dogma for proven truth.

507 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:50:54pm

re: #496 hadanuf

When the bacteria evolves an eye or evolves to becomes a sponge, or some other being, call me. Just because it adapts to it's environment and eats what's available, like a moth that becomes darker because its favorite hangout becomes darker, and all the lighter siblings are picked off by predators. It sounds more like adaptation that evolution.

Maybe try an argument that isn't 160 years old and we can have a discussion.

508 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:50:59pm

re: #502 HelloDare

Lol.

509 brickthruplateglasswindow  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:51:12pm

re: #483 EC Marm

Ah yes, birth certification. Not birth certificate. I'm glad you're hedging your words on that. I'm not so sure some fringe group wouldn't be willing to go to the SCOTUS with that green Sentry Safety piece of 24 pound paper.

Any bets on what surfaces first? O's original Birth Certificate or John Kerry's original DD-214?

510 opnion  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:51:15pm

re: #395 Charles

Yes, there are absolutely a few of those around. They've been posting in the ID threads.


Yup, and noone wants tio be crule, but it is really amazing that people take Genisis literally. It is not an attack on faith to point out that the biblical story is not possible. Therefore it did not happen
A belief in the obvious proof of evolution does not have to be construed as an attack on the possibility of a God.
Both can be true

511 JCM  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:51:18pm

re: #496 hadanuf

When the bacteria evolves an eye or evolves to becomes a sponge, or some other being, call me. Just because it adapts to it's environment and eats what's available, like a moth that becomes darker because its favorite hangout becomes darker, and all the lighter siblings are picked off by predators. It sounds more like adaptation that evolution.

Adapation doesn't involve a change in the genome. The moths genetics didn't change, it's population variability did due to environment. Darker moths survived to breeding more often than lighter ones.

The genome of the bacteria changed, far different from adaptation.

512 MrC_5150  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:51:46pm

Repeat----

I'm hearing on the Michael Savage show that Lt. Col. Jeffrey Chessani is going to be re-tried by the government. No link available yet.

513 bubbalouey  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:51:56pm

re: #466 JCM

You are correct.

My apologies to all concerned.

514 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:52:11pm

re: #436 Maximu§

Well, well another Christian-Bashing thread.......how nice. I would sure hope this isn't being done to drive us Christians away.

I haven't seen one iota of Christian bashing in this thread, and I've read most of the comments, nor have I seen very much Christian (or religion) bashing on any of the ID threads.

And on the two occasions that I can recall seeing "Christian bashing", those commenters got called on it really quickly, and both ended up blocked. That's two occasions out of how many threads and comments on this topic?

I've seen more comments making accusations that "Christian bashing" is going on, than I have seen actual "bashing".

515 StPatrick  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:52:23pm

re: #496 hadanuf

Adaptation is evolution - the lighter colored moths in your example were less fit for survival, so they were not "selected" by nature. The darker colored moths survive and reproduce, while the lighter ones are food. That is natural selection at its most simplistic.

516 Purple Prose  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:52:33pm

Funny. This is not a new experiment. It is 4,000,000,000 years old.

517 opnion  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:52:47pm

re: #448 Shug

OT

Per Michael savage show ( live)

Lt. Col. Jeffrey Chessani to be retried in Haditha case

is there no double jeopardy in the military?


Oh thats perfect. Cry crocodile tears for the worst of the worst at Gitmo, but stick it to an honorable man.

518 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:52:48pm
519 justdanny  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:53:22pm

Its my opinion that we humans are apes. Thats what I believe.

There was an original dog and an original cat, so forth and so on. And todays dogs and cats are not much like those original dogs and cats, but they are still dogs and cats. There was also an original ape, and though we arent much like him in appearence today, we are still apes. Fancy Apes I call us. Like a bulldog is compared to the original dog, just a fancy dog.

Evolution is a no brainer. Is there a god? I dont know, really, but I don't think so. Is there a need for god? Yes, obviously. And in many cases God serves us well.

520 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:53:31pm

re: #486 Maximu§

Cmon Charles, your a smart guy.

These type of threads look innocent, but basically poke us Christians in the eye and you've seen enough of them turn into forest fires to know what I'm talking about.

I've said it at least a hundred different ways now:

Belief in Christianity does not equate to belief in "intelligent design" or creationism. (Which are really the same thing, but the former is dressed up in scientific-sounding BS.)

If you're unwilling to accept that, it's your choice.

521 LeftJustAintRight  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:53:33pm

This is not new
The Religion of Peace evolved to a Religion of Jihadist

522 rawmuse  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:53:37pm

re: #390 Ringo the Gringo

I'm curious: Is there anyone here that believes in literal, biblical creationism?....(7 days, "let there be light", 4000 year old earth, etc)

Yes. I have some relations who think this. We don't talk about it. To me, Genesis is a metaphor, full of poetic imagery. But there are some pretty big holes in it. My family reunion last week included a couple of ministers, and we went around and around about Gen. 6, in which another species of giant "men" are around, and are marrying human females, but somehow are not in the list of "begats". I have always been fascinated by these beings.

523 Cicero05  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:53:41pm

re: #487 angst

The Catholic Church is okay with evolution. It's official.

In 1992 the Pope also conceded that Galileo just may have been onto something when he argued that Copernicus had it right about the Earth circling the sun.

524 Maximu§  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:54:24pm

re: #455 theparson

As a Christian (one might even say "fundamentalist") I don't see this as Christian bashing. I'm sure there are some who don't like Christians but, I don't like liver and onions. Surely our beliefs are not so fragile that we can't listen to/read dissenting views.

Just wait for abit....the real insults are-a-coming. Listen, us Christians are bashed and sneared at from the left, but in here at least........aw forget it.

I need to stay outta these types of thread.

525 jc59  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:54:45pm

re: #499 buzzsawmonkey

Thank you for providing a textbook example of the following (above @ #340):

It appears that ID advocates will reject evolution as "not proven" on the grounds that evolution "cannot be shown to occur under laboratory conditions"--thereby attempting to use scientific criteria in an effort to subvert science, in much the same way as CAIR uses the commitment to free speech to subvert free speech.

When, however, as here, evolution is demonstrated under laboratory conditions, ID advocates will move the goalposts on the grounds that the evolutionary activity shown is done with microcellular organisms instead of complex vertebrates.

Whether the experiment demonstrated "evolution" depends on how you define the term.

526 kenneth  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:54:53pm

I truly resent it when folks use the phrase "us Christians" to defend a rather narrow ideological subset of said group. Don't count me in.

I am a Christian. I am also a scientist. I believe in the divinity of my saviour Jesus Christ. I also believe in the scientific validity of the Big Bang theory, the Standard Model, and evolution through natural selection. I see absolutely no contradiction between these ideas & my faith. None. On the contrary, my appreciation of the majesty of His Creation is all the more profound.

ID is not equivalent to Christianity.
Science is not equivalent to atheism.

527 Boogberg  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:55:01pm

re: #486 Maximu§

Cmon Charles, your a smart guy.

These type of threads look innocent, but basically poke us Christians in the eye and you've seen enough of them turn into forest fires to know what I'm talking about.

Quit whining. A little poking isn't gonna kill you. :D

528 reno911  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:55:59pm

Who created the creator who created the creator....

529 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:56:03pm
530 MrC_5150  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:56:19pm

re: #448 Shug

OT

Per Michael savage show ( live)

Lt. Col. Jeffrey Chessani to be retried in Haditha case

is there no double jeopardy in the military?

Sons of bitches. Time to pony up some more cash.

531 ornery elephant  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:56:52pm

re: #510 opnion

Yup, and noone wants tio be crule, but it is really amazing that people take Genisis literally. It is not an attack on faith to point out that the biblical story is not possible. Therefore it did not happen
A belief in the obvious proof of evolution does not have to be construed as an attack on the possibility of a God.
Both can be true

Okay, I'm on board opnion. The biblical story is not possible and American science is supreme. I have just taken down my "Green Is Dumb" poster from the front yard and joined the omnipotent scientists of America and plastered a "Save Florida! Down With Carbon!" bumpersticker on my brand new Prius. Does evolution continue into the afterlife? Please say 'yes' !

532 justdanny  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:57:01pm

re: #528 reno911
Nobody, thats who...

533 FamHistoryGuy  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:57:01pm

re: #459 Charles

Usually by the time I get to a thread it is several hours old or everything I wanted to say has been said by someone else. And usually expressed better.

534 mean Gene  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:57:04pm

re: #522 rawmuse

Yes. I have some relations who think this. We don't talk about it. To me, Genesis is a metaphor, full of poetic imagery. But there are some pretty big holes in it. My family reunion last week included a couple of ministers, and we went around and around about Gen. 6, in which another species of giant "men" are around, and are marrying human females, but somehow are not in the list of "begats". I have always been fascinated by these beings.

Even the most die-hard evolutionist will tell you that hybrids do not produce viable offspring.
The giants in Gen. 6 were offspring of angels (who chose to follow Satan) and human females.
There were no giants who survived the Flood, nor any offspring from the giants, themselves.
The fallen angels were forbidden to go back to Heaven so they became demons, followers of Satan.

535 opnion  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:57:14pm

re: #523 Cicero05

In 1992 the Pope also conceded that Galileo just may have been onto something when he argued that Copernicus had it right about the Earth circling the sun.


That is not true. The Earth is the center of the Universe & The Cubs have dominated Major League Baseball for the last hundred years.

536 JCM  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:57:59pm

re: #528 reno911

Who created the creator who created the creator....

Wrong question...
What is the turtle standing on?

537 theparson  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:58:00pm

re: #518 buzzsawmonkey

The Apostle Peter alluded to this in 2 Peter 3:8,9.

538 Indepublicrat  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:58:09pm

A great article on this experiment and its significance from Carl Zimmer, who just published a book on E. coli.

539 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:58:14pm

re: #519 justdanny

Ray Davies said it best:

540 HelloDare  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:58:21pm

re: #536 JCM

Wrong question...
What is the turtle standing on?

His feet.

541 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:58:30pm

re: #535 opnion

That is not true. The Earth is the center of the Universe & The Cubs have dominated Major League Baseball for the last hundred years.

you sound like Baghdad Bob

there is no bartman.
There is no goat. NEVER !

542 loflyer  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:58:44pm

re: #526 kenneth

I truly resent it when folks use the phrase "us Christians" to defend a rather narrow ideological subset of said group. Don't count me in.

I am a Christian. I am also a scientist. I believe in the divinity of my saviour Jesus Christ. I also believe in the scientific validity of the Big Bang theory, the Standard Model, and evolution through natural selection. I see absolutely no contradiction between these ideas & my faith. None. On the contrary, my appreciation of the majesty of His Creation is all the more profound.

ID is not equivalent to Christianity.
Science is not equivalent to atheism.

Hear, hear!

543 JCM  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:58:53pm

re: #535 opnion

That is not true. The Earth is the center of the Universe & The Cubs have dominated Major League Baseball for the last hundred years.

I've got a goat that says different!

544 tokyobk  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:58:55pm

re: #518 buzzsawmonkey

I am not parsing the grammatical meaning of the word "yom" ("day"); merely pointing out that we as human beings celebrate, or mark, that "7 day" cycle on multiple scales of time--and that accordingly, there is no reason to assume that what appears to be a "day" to us is equivalent to a "day" for He Who created days.

Many rabbis interpret it this way as well, noting that as it is used throughout all other literature it means sundown to sundown. If there is a God than his days must be longer since the world was most likely not created in seven literal days, they reason. For me it shows the fingerprints all over these holy texts, and I do beleive those writing the Torah meant us to believe it was "sheshet yamim;" seven days.

But many rabbis also believe the world is less than 6,000 years old, as well.

But none of this says if there is a god or not or diminishes a bit the contributions of Jusiasm or the message of Jesus, whose life ought to be imitated as Ben Franklin suggested.

545 protestshooter  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:58:56pm

re: #380 rawmuse

Yes, I am very familiar with your work, and have heard you interviewed on KSFO. Good on ya!

I sure hope you haven't, because that's wasn't me!

546 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:58:59pm

re: #488 kenneth

I'm not sure what your point was, but I was being sarcastic.

You're right. It's not your fault. I guess I just got tired of the incredulity about 31,500 generations and how that could mean anything.

I'll try to read more slowly, which means I might not be able to read all of a thread like this. Feel free to correct me when I'm wrong. I won't feel hurt, just shaken into reminder of my own fallability, of which I am uncomfortably aware.

547 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:59:15pm
548 brickthruplateglasswindow  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:59:35pm

re: #530 MrC_5150

Sons of bitches. Time to pony up some more cash.

Let's see if it's true first....

Don't know if this applies?

549 canerican  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:59:35pm

OK, I get it. You're beating a dead horse. I thought this was supposed to fun... well its not really anymore.

You might get a few big threads, but my guess is that there are a few people like me that are a bit more than frustrated and likely won't be coming back - to think that I tell all my Conservative friends about you and your site.

Seriously, I know that its interesting, but could you maybe create an RSS feed where you skip evolution stories?

550 JHW  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:59:37pm

I've had an interest in Dr. Lynn Margulis' (married to Carl Sagan), U. Mass., theories about viruses and bacteria driving cell change. She's one of the ones that came up with the Gaia theory that has been hijacked to a certain extent by non-scientific circles. She posits symbiosis as important in evolution as competition . One of her books is The Symbiotic Planet. I leave it to the scientists here to critique her work, I don't have the knowledge to do so, but I find micro-biology fascinating. I'll leave this snippet about some interesting bacterial communities in Australia.

Thrombolites and Stromatalites are living fossil communities of earliest bacteria occurring around the coast and within salt tidal lakes in Western Australia. The Thrombolites at Clifton Lake are rare archaeobacteria; these colonies of cells are the pre cursors of all living organisms on the earth. They sweat out layer upon layer of mineral limestone and these mats like some filthy swollen quilt appear in the shape of soft mounds. Billions of years old, these subtle generators of matter and photosynthesis opened a door to oxygenate the earth and in doing so left a geological trail of iron banding within the earth. This iron is a pre cursor of haemoglobin in our own red blood cells. Photographs and written descriptions give little indication of their scale or poetic impact. They have a strangely soothing presence and are curiously mesmerising. Watching their benign forms nesting at the edge of a lake you almost expect their creature like forms to move and speak. Evolutionary biology has inspired scientists and designers to explore the creative potential of “smart materials,” man-made materials modeled after nature that can adapt to changes in their environment and physically transform.These mutualistic bacterial communities are the key example of how symbiosis works.


Kathleen Rogers......Symbiotic Evolution

551 Indepublicrat  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:59:39pm

re: #533 FamHistoryGuy

Usually by the time I get to a thread it is several hours old or everything I wanted to say has been said by someone else. And usually expressed better.

Ditto.

552 JCM  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 5:59:42pm

re: #540 HelloDare

His feet.

LOL! But what are his feet on?

AH HAH, gotcha smartie pants!

553 angst  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:00:16pm

re: #535 opnion

That is not true. The Earth is the center of the Universe & The Cubs have dominated Major League Baseball for the last hundred years.

That's not true. My nine-year-old is the center of the universe- just ask him.

554 theatheistjew  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:00:38pm

re: #504 experiencedtraveller

Market research 101. Give me the desired result and I'll craft you a poll.

I wouldn't bet my ranch on your sources to support sweeping political generalizations.

They are consistent in almost every poll. Do an internet search for "Americans and evolution poll"

555 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:00:42pm

re: #549 canerican

OK, I get it. You're beating a dead horse. I thought this was supposed to fun... well its not really anymore.

You might get a few big threads, but my guess is that there are a few people like me that are a bit more than frustrated and likely won't be coming back - to think that I tell all my Conservative friends about you and your site.

Seriously, I know that its interesting, but could you maybe create an RSS feed where you skip evolution stories?

So does that mean you hate me?

556 NonNativeTexan  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:00:55pm

#520 Charles

I think one difference is 6 literal days.
But both ,do of course acknowledge a creator.
I will think about it more, though

557 jaunte  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:01:04pm

heh.

558 LeftJustAintRight  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:01:15pm

The Koran can settle this once and for all !
All lizards better start reading theirs now and learn every word
POTUS Obama will mandate it and we will be ahead of the curve

/

559 eastvillageinfidel  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:01:20pm

re: #533 FamHistoryGuy

Me too! I wish there was a late-comers lounge where we could all get together without being boring and redundant. Of course, in my case that might not even help. :)

560 Gordon Marock  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:01:53pm

So many sad, fearful rantings. Furthermore, . . . wait, I must go, a Unicorn just pranced across by back yard.

561 HelloDare  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:02:20pm

re: #552 JCM

LOL! But what are his feet on?

AH HAH, gotcha smartie pants!

His sandals.

562 hazzyday  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:02:29pm
563 theparson  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:02:32pm

re: #524 Maximu§

My friend, please don't equate the passion with which some defend their beliefs/views as "bashing". I used to have a friend who liked to say,
"I spit on you I make you wet, you make you mad".

564 rawmuse  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:02:40pm

re: #545 protestshooter

I sure hope you haven't, because that's wasn't me!

You are not this person, then.

I stand corrected.

565 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:02:43pm

re: #486 Maximu§

Cmon Charles, your a smart guy.

These type of threads look innocent, but basically poke us Christians in the eye and you've seen enough of them turn into forest fires to know what I'm talking about.

It seems to me that the only person bashing Christians here is you, by lumping them all together into the Creationist camp without consulting them or asking their permission. Wouldn't you call that insulting?

We're bashing creationists. It is you who is drawing an equivalence between creationism and Christianity.

Point out to me a single comment on this thread that bashes Christians (aside from yours).

566 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:02:47pm

re: #549 canerican

OK, I get it. You're beating a dead horse.

This horse is very much alive. The Louisiana state legislature just voted to saddle up and ride.

567 JCM  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:02:58pm

re: #544 tokyobk

Many rabbis interpret it this way as well, noting that as it is used throughout all other literature it means sundown to sundown. If there is a God than his days must be longer since the world was most likely not created in seven literal days, they reason. For me it shows the fingerprints all over these holy texts, and I do beleive those writing the Torah meant us to believe it was "sheshet yamim;" seven days.

But many rabbis also believe the world is less than 6,000 years old, as well.

But none of this says if there is a god or not or diminishes a bit the contributions of Jusiasm or the message of Jesus, whose life ought to be imitated as Ben Franklin suggested.

Here's one to chew on, not drawing any conclusions, I leave that to individuals.

There are 5 Major Extinction Events. This divides time into 6 main periods......

568 tokyobk  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:03:01pm

re: #558 LeftJustAintRight

The Koran can settle this once and for all !
All lizards better start reading theirs now and learn every word
POTUS Obama will mandate it and we will be ahead of the curve

/

The mountains hold down the earth from floating away. Thats Koranic science. Men and women both have sperm. Ditto. Actually both are Greek cribs.

569 justdanny  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:03:17pm

re: #539 Charles
Rgr That. 0% batt. Later ya'll.

570 opnion  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:03:24pm

re: #531 ornery elephant

Okay, I'm on board opnion. The biblical story is not possible and American science is supreme. I have just taken down my "Green Is Dumb" poster from the front yard and joined the omnipotent scientists of America and plastered a "Save Florida! Down With Carbon!" bumpersticker on my brand new Prius. Does evolution continue into the afterlife? Please say 'yes' !

My friend I do believe that you misunderstood me. I am not denying the existence of God.
I am saying that Genisis is a way for man at the time to explain his world.
The World is not 10,000 years old. No snake was talking in some garden in Mesopotamia. No one cost us paradice becuse they chomped an apple or got laid. Dinosaurs came before man, unless carbon dating is a hoax.
You really took a quantum leap on what you assume that I believe.

571 hazzyday  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:03:41pm

re: #549 canerican

Why is this so touchy to you? Want do you know that I don't? Or what don't you want to know?

572 unclassifiable  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:03:44pm

re: #535 opnion

Hey check your tricorder. You're in the other universe now.

573 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:03:51pm

re: #526 kenneth

I truly resent it when folks use the phrase "us Christians" to defend a rather narrow ideological subset of said group. Don't count me in.

I am a Christian. I am also a scientist. I believe in the divinity of my saviour Jesus Christ. I also believe in the scientific validity of the Big Bang theory, the Standard Model, and evolution through natural selection. I see absolutely no contradiction between these ideas & my faith. None. On the contrary, my appreciation of the majesty of His Creation is all the more profound.

ID is not equivalent to Christianity.
Science is not equivalent to atheism.

BINGO!

Thank you.

Please note that comment, Maximus.

574 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:03:56pm
575 Mich-again  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:04:17pm

There is supposed to be a real big moon early in the night. Actually, its the same moon, but its going to look bigger or so they say. Can't wait.

576 goddessoftheclassroom  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:04:23pm

re: #510 opnion

Yup, and noone wants tio be crule, but it is really amazing that people take Genisis literally. It is not an attack on faith to point out that the biblical story is not possible. Therefore it did not happen
A belief in the obvious proof of evolution does not have to be construed as an attack on the possibility of a God.
Both can be true

I've often been called amazing. :)

Yes, I believe the Holy Scriptures to be the Word of God and thus true. I do think that "day" is God's time, not earth's time, thus accounting for billions of years of creation, and I believe that evolution valid.

577 Gordon Marock  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:04:34pm

re: #566 Charles

This horse is very much alive. The Louisiana state legislature just voted to saddle up and ride.

Truly. Here in West Central Florida, it has come up twice in the legislature. F'ing scary.

578 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:04:38pm

re: #521 LeftJustAintRight

This is not new
The Religion of Peace Jihadist evolved to a Religion of Jihadist

/Islamic Scientists agree

579 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:04:44pm

re: #528 reno911

Who created the creator who created the creator....

Don't you know? It's turtles all the way down.

580 reno911  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:04:45pm

re: #532 justdanny

But I thought who was on first...

581 Rkrocket  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:05:22pm

Very interesting article - almost as good as the oil-pooping bugs.

For the purposes of the debate, it hardly makes a difference. Evolution and a belief in a creator are by no mean incompatible ideas.

582 rawmuse  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:05:39pm

re: #534 mean Gene

I get it, but once you accept the idea that there are such things as giant fallen angels who have been banned from heaven, the fact that they could not successfully mate with humans is somewhat moot.

583 dcbatlle  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:05:43pm

Adaptation is not evolution. Nice try though.

584 unclassifiable  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:06:14pm

re: #533 FamHistoryGuy

Don't worry. Most of us aren't going upthread to check for originality.

585 OldLineTexan  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:06:22pm

re: #552 JCM

LOL! But what are his feet on?

AH HAH, gotcha smartie pants!

His feet are on his LEGS.

/What do they teach in schools these days?

586 Mich-again  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:06:24pm

re: #536 JCM

Wrong question...
What is the turtle standing on?

I was just at the Party store and there was a flyer for someone's lost turtle named Baxter. Pretty big one too, about 12" diameter. I'm thinking, how the heck does a turtle run away from home?

587 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:06:35pm

re: #583 dcbatlle

Adaptation is not evolution. Nice try though.

What if failure to adapt causes you to die ?

588 theparson  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:06:38pm

re: #547 buzzsawmonkey

My pleasure.

2 Peter 3:8,9 ‘But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.’
589 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:06:43pm
590 yesandno  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:07:09pm

The nature of evolution appears to be that something "evolves" from an earlier form into a seeming more complex one. Yet, even the more complex one isn't assured of survival.

So...can we let a few of them go extinct once and a while! And let me have cheaper gas already!

591 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:07:25pm

re: #566 Charles

This horse is very much alive. The Louisiana state legislature just voted to saddle up and ride.

Lovely. I guess natural selection is just something that accidentally happens to folks who live under sea level, in large apathetic communities, whose levees were made substandard by massive and unchallenged political corruption.

Some things never change. Eventually NOLA will be a ghost town, mark my words.

592 brickthruplateglasswindow  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:07:42pm

re: #586 Mich-again

..., how the heck does a turtle run away from home?

Very slowly.

593 JCM  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:07:47pm

re: #586 Mich-again

I was just at the Party store and there was a flyer for someone's lost turtle named Baxter. Pretty big one too, about 12" diameter. I'm thinking, how the heck does a turtle run away from home?

Slowly.......

594 jc59  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:08:02pm

re: #529 buzzsawmonkey

So, how do you define it?

Evolution is the theory that:

1) all present and past life forms on earth have a single common origin (e.g. "the tree of life")

2) all variation between different forms of life is the product of natural selection-- and only natural selection.

3) through a freak occurrence or sequence of freak occurrences life was developed from non-life. (e.g. energy introduced into the primordial soup excited the molecules just right and-- presto! life!)

If any one of these statements is false then the principle of evolution is false.

595 EC Marm  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:08:58pm

re: #575 Mich-again

There is supposed to be a real big moon early in the night. Actually, its the same moon, but its going to look bigger or so they say. Can't wait.


The moon is slowly moving further and further away from the Earth. One of the early moon landings placed a mirror to bounce light from a laser back to the Earth. The movement is approximately 1 1/2 feet per year, so the Moon should be appearing smaller all the time. In a few more years...

596 LeftJustAintRight  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:09:11pm

Hell
These threads evolve everyday and sometimes twice

597 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:09:19pm

re: #539 Charles

Ray Davies said it best:

[Link: www.youtube.com...]

The Kinks: The fourth greatest band in history!

(After The Beatles, The Who, and The Zombies, of course...)

598 krypto  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:09:20pm

Nothing is ever "proved" in the sense that creationists and ID types demand. Newton's law of gravitation has never been "proved" in that sense either - that every two masses in the universe attract each other with a force directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of their distance.

So who's actually gone and measured the force between every two masses in the universe to prove anything like that?

You can't "prove" it - you can only show evidence that's consistent with it - so by the same reasoning being used by people who call evolution "Darwinism" as if it were like "Marxism" or other mindless devotion to someone's personal ideology (which evolution is NOT), that means that "Newtonism" must be untrue, and the real explanation of gravity that we should be teaching in science classes is not in terms of natural principles, but that objects fall to earth simply because "God makes them fall."

Never mind that it would be as completely meaningless as ID is.

599 opnion  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:09:22pm

re: #572 unclassifiable

Hey check your tricorder. You're in the other universe now.

Oh,so I bet now you are going to tell me that the Cubs have not won a World Series in 100 years! May they go another 100.

600 HelloDare  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:09:27pm

re: #586 Mich-again

I was just at the Party store and there was a flyer for someone's lost turtle named Baxter. Pretty big one too, about 12" diameter. I'm thinking, how the heck does a turtle run away from home?

Guy who lived across the street from me had an African tortoise. It did run away. Saw a guy from a couple houses over returning it. Wasn't easy. It was big.

601 theparson  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:10:13pm

re: #570 opnion

Opnion, don't think me rude but, does your computer have spell check?

602 theatheistjew  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:10:49pm

re: #526 kenneth

I truly resent it when folks use the phrase "us Christians" to defend a rather narrow ideological subset of said group. Don't count me in.

I am a Christian. I am also a scientist. I believe in the divinity of my saviour Jesus Christ. I also believe in the scientific validity of the Big Bang theory, the Standard Model, and evolution through natural selection. I see absolutely no contradiction between these ideas & my faith. None. On the contrary, my appreciation of the majesty of His Creation is all the more profound.

ID is not equivalent to Christianity.
Science is not equivalent to atheism.

I respect theistic evolutionists. I think it is natural to believe in the supernatural as our ancestors couldn't explain lightning and in order to make to procreation without going nuts, they needed supernatural explanations. I think we evolved the susceptibility to believe in God.
I had a Fundy Christian comment on my blog today that Christians who accept evolution cannot really be Christian and don't understand the bible.

603 VegasRick  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:10:55pm

re: #586 Mich-again

I was just at the Party store and there was a flyer for someone's lost turtle named Baxter. Pretty big one too, about 12" diameter. I'm thinking, how the heck does a turtle run away from home?

Veeeeerrrrryyyyy slowly.

604 opnion  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:11:07pm

re: #601 theparson

Opnion, don't think me rude but, does your computer have spell check?

Yeah, but I'm a little lazy.

605 protestshooter  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:11:11pm

re: #564 rawmuse

You are not this person, then.

I stand corrected.


Nope, I just take pictures of them. I think if you click my name it will bring you to my site, and Zombie uses my shots now and again.

No problem - glad there was a simple explanation!

606 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:11:26pm

re: #598 krypto

Nothing is ever "proved" in the sense that creationists and ID types demand. Newton's law of gravitation has never been "proved" in that sense either - that every two masses in the universe attract each other with a force directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of their distance.

So who's actually gone and measured the force between every two masses in the universe to prove anything like that?

You can't "prove" it - you can only show evidence that's consistent with it - so by the same reasoning being used by people who call evolution "Darwinism" as if it were like "Marxism" or other mindless devotion to someone's personal ideology (which evolution is NOT), that means that "Newtonism" must be untrue, and the real explanation of gravity that we should be teaching in science classes is not in terms of natural principles, but that objects fall to earth simply because "God makes them fall."

Never mind that it would be as completely meaningless as ID is.

So this is what it feels like to fall in love....

Ahhhh.

Superb!

607 Gordon Marock  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:11:38pm

re: #594 jc59

Evolution is the theory that:

1) all present and past life forms on earth have a single common origin (e.g. "the tree of life")

2) all variation between different forms of life is the product of natural selection-- and only natural selection.

3) through a freak occurrence or sequence of freak occurrences life was developed from non-life. (e.g. energy introduced into the primordial soup excited the molecules just right and-- presto! life!)

If any one of these statements is false then the principle of evolution is false.

False,
1) Not necessarily a single common ancestor;
3) Mutation is not a 'freak occurrence' It happens every day, and is observable by science. And, extended over 100's of millions of years, no big mystery how it happended.

608 HelloDare  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:11:48pm

re: #601 theparson

Opnion, don't think me rude but, does your computer have spell check?

Know it doesn't.

609 BignJames  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:12:00pm

re: #597 zombie

Now you're gonna start an argument.

610 angst  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:12:26pm

re: #567 JCM

Here's one to chew on, not drawing any conclusions, I leave that to individuals.

There are 5 Major Extinction Events. This divides time into 6 main periods......

The fact that people have not gone extinct is one of the biggest arguments for God that there is.

We're a statistical aberration. All life is- but intelligent life especially. We shouldn't even be here.

Oh, and there's a kind of survival of the fittest I think
we can all support.

611 JCM  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:12:34pm

re: #589 buzzsawmonkey

To the contrary, adaptation is the very essence of evolution.

The original comment equated environmental adaption, the British moths, to the bacterial genetic changes.

One is an genetically unmodified population, responding to environmental changes which altered the population distribution of color of moth.

vs.

A genetic change, which changes the organism, and it's interaction with the environment.

Both are "adaption" but with different drivers.

612 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:13:15pm
613 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:13:50pm

re: #465 Josephine

...I like science. I am grateful to scientists. If not for science, I would not be alive today.

I wouldn't be, either.

I give thanks every day to God, that I live in a day and time and age where SCIENCE and SCIENTIFIC STUDY has flourished to such a point that the very complex testing procedures and medicines I need to keep me alive and healthy are available.

I am a Christian, giving thanks to God, for science. I do not want non-science being taught in science classes. That makes me anti-ID. It does not make me anti-God.

614 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:13:53pm

re: #609 BignJames

Now you're gonna start an argument.

And we were all getting along so fine until now!

615 protestshooter  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:14:02pm

re: #378 zombie

I won't be able to make it today.

Truth is, I don't care fiddle, I don't care a fig about this stupid oak tree protest. I only cover it because everyone else is interested!

Well, I'm glad you do cover it when you can.

616 unclassifiable  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:14:05pm

re: #599 opnion

Now opnion repeat after me.

Hi, I'm opnion. I'm a Cubs fan and I am addicted to despair.

BTW I can't rally brag being a Saints, Oilers Texans, and Astros fan.

617 rightymouse  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:14:18pm

re: #390 Ringo the Gringo

I'm curious: Is there anyone here that believes in literal, biblical creationism?....(7 days, "let there be light", 4000 year old earth, etc)

There have been some here and may still be those who believe in the literal creation in Genesis in terms of time, Garden of Eden, being cast out and there were other people around. I don't have any problem with their beliefs as they don't harm anyone. Mocking or taunting them is unproductive, methinks. And those who do that for the sake of demeaning their beliefs run the risk of looking a trifle small for doing so.

As one who embraced Christianity (after rejecting it for years) watching sand crabs on a beach in Thailand, I believe a higher power was involved with the creation of this earth, although I'm not a Genesis literalist. Also, my belief in G-D as a higher power does not conflict with my acceptance of evolution.

I dare say there are many Christians here who take no issue with evolution.

618 MrC_5150  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:14:31pm

re: #548 brickthruplateglasswindow

Let's see if it's true first....

Don't know if this applies?

I think Savage got it wrong. I think the appeal was filed but no hearing has taken place yet.

619 tokyobk  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:14:41pm

re: #574 buzzsawmonkey

I have said elsewhere, and will say again, that the Torah was given to people who had only lately learned to smelt bronze and iron. It does not discuss dinosaurs, or trilobytes; it was designed to convey the order of the universe in simple, broad-brush terms, and explain to Man his place in that order.

To mandate that this document must therefore convey in utterly literal terms the full detail of G-d's creation in all its bewildering variation, and to bind the human mind thereby, is an insult to both G-d and man.


I would just say that the collections of writings put into the Torah collected from several cultures over time with sometimes competing ideas of what god was and what he wanted from men, were put together by men who had only just learned to smelt iron. The double stories, the repeated myths from older cultures, the various names given to god which mirror those from several religions in the area show this, to me at least. For some people it is a relevant and important distinction because those who wrote the Torah and other religious texts indeed intended men and women to live by its mandates as if it were the Truth and as if it were complete. Before the Talmud, stoning a Sabbath breaker meant exactly that. Islam finds itself in a pre-talmudic state.

Religions tend to only get allegorical and interperative (seven days actually means seven cycles etc...) only when faced with hard science, which often began as heresy.

Freedom, from the Enlightenment to the Internet has depended on loosening itself from what were ment as very literal rules about the universe and man`s place in it dictated by holy scriptures.

Still a huge fan of the Jews, Jesus, and the Buddha...

620 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:14:51pm
621 opnion  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:15:02pm

re: #613 reine.de.tout

I wouldn't be, either.

I give thanks every day to God, that I live in a day and time and age where SCIENCE and SCIENTIFIC STUDY has flourished to such a point that the very complex testing procedures and medicines I need to keep me alive and healthy are available.

I am a Christian, giving thanks to God, for science. I do not want non-science being taught in science classes. That makes me anti-ID. It does not make me anti-God.


Bingo! We have a winner. Well said.

622 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:15:32pm

re: #597 zombie

The Kinks: The fourth greatest band in history!

(After The Beatles, The Who, and The Zombies, of course...)

The Kinks eat the brains of the Zombies. Rod Argent was way ahead of his time, but the Davies brothers are responsible for an amazing number of classic songs, almost as many as the Beatles or the Who.

623 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:15:53pm

re: #621 opnion

humble thanks.

624 Hanoch  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:16:15pm

#473 -- Dar ul Harb

Interesting point, but (in my humble opinion) you are off base. You are confusing evidence with proof. The experiments you are referring to constitute evidence consistent with evolution, but don't prove it.

I'll make the point by way of analogy. The scientific community, for a long time, accepted the "steady state" theory of the universe, i.e., that the universe always existed and had no creation point. Obviously, this position was inconsistent with the creationist view. However, observation and experimentation led scientists later to accept the "big bang" theory, i.e., that the universe had a creation point. It would be incorrect for me to say that ID is thus provable through the scientific method simply because scientific experimentation can provide evidence consistent with ID theory. Likewise, it is just as incorrect for you to say that because scientific experimentation can discover facts consistent with evolution, that evolution can be proven through the scientific method.

Alternatively, you would have to accept that ID and evolution are both grounded in the scientific method because, for each, scientific experimentation is capable of discovering facts consistent or inconsistent with each theory. You choose.

625 LeftJustAintRight  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:16:43pm

re: #622 Charles

The Kinks eat the brains of the Zombies. Rod Argent was way ahead of his time, but the Davies brothers are responsible for an amazing number of classic songs, almost as many as the Beatles or the Who.

Time for a music / drinking thread

626 HelloDare  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:17:12pm
The Kinks eat the brains of the Zombies.

That's how you get mad zombie disease.

627 MrC_5150  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:18:08pm
628 carbon footprint  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:18:17pm

Of course evolution is real. God made it.

629 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:18:17pm
630 Dan G.  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:18:29pm

re: #480 angst

There is already a DNA aptamer that can discern the prior form vs. native form. But I believe that its purpose will be for diagnosis, not treatment (at least for now).

Takemura et al. "DNA Aptamers That Bind to PrPC and Not PrPSc Show Sequence and Structure Specificity" Exp Biol Med 231:204–214, 2006.

631 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:19:06pm

re: #622 Charles

The Kinks eat the brains of the Zombies. Rod Argent was way ahead of his time, but the Davies brothers are responsible for an amazing number of classic songs, almost as many as the Beatles or the Who.

Well, I am biased, after all.

But I've listened to much of the Zombies' "back catalog" and even the forgotten obscure B-sides and so forth are all brilliant. True, they did not have the sheer quantity of greatness that the Kinks had, but I think the Zombies' percentage of great songs as opposed to clunkers was second only to the Beatles, even with their comparatively brief career.

632 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:19:33pm
633 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:19:34pm

re: #625 LeftJustAintRight

Time for a music / drinking thread

Yes, I need a margarita. Or something.

634 LeftJustAintRight  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:19:39pm
635 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:19:58pm
636 opnion  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:20:19pm

re: #616 unclassifiable

Now opnion repeat after me.

Hi, I'm opnion. I'm a Cubs fan and I am addicted to despair.

BTW I can't rally brag being a Saints, Oilers Texans, and Astros fan.

No actually I am not a Cubs fan. I was just being snarky.
I support the 2nd team in the 2nd city, Da SOX!
Cub fans hve gone 100 years with the mantra, "Wait till next year"
I feel their pain , but come on!

637 OldLineTexan  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:20:31pm

re: #633 reine.de.tout

Yes, I need a margarita. Or something.

One something with a twist for the Queen.

/slides drink down the bar

On the House, your Majesty.

638 HelloDare  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:20:37pm

re: #632 taxfreekiller

If you put three ugly mean ass fat loathsome women on a island,
and one man who can not swim, he will evolve gills and swim away

is that evolution or fate or intelligent design by God that enable him to escape

He could put his eyes out.

639 joelt  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:20:41pm

I guess I would be impressed if the e. coli had evolved to something that wasn't e coli. Gaining or losing a characteristic is not evolution.

640 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:21:01pm
641 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:21:12pm

re: #637 OldLineTexan

One something with a twist for the Queen.

/slides drink down the bar

On the House, your Majesty.

Oh, that's great! Much needed. Thank you!

642 JCM  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:21:15pm

re: #638 HelloDare

He could put his eyes out.

Beat me too it!

643 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:21:34pm

re: #639 joelt

And here we go back to square one.

644 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:21:53pm
645 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:22:02pm

re: #631 zombie

Well, I am biased, after all.

But I've listened to much of the Zombies' "back catalog" and even the forgotten obscure B-sides and so forth are all brilliant. True, they did not have the sheer quantity of greatness that the Kinks had, but I think the Zombies' percentage of great songs as opposed to clunkers was second only to the Beatles, even with their comparatively brief career.

For perhaps the 200th time, I am not bashing The Zombies.

A tiny little Heh.

646 OldLineTexan  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:22:03pm

re: #632 taxfreekiller

If you put three ugly mean ass fat loathsome women on a island,
and one man who can not swim, he will evolve gills and swim away

is that evolution or fate or intelligent design by God that enable him to escape

The three women would evolve into attractive and scintillating creatures.

/I give it three weeks
//three hours if beer is involved

647 transient  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:22:03pm

I can never keep up with the comments.

Charles, you've taken heat for all the evolution related threads you've posted but I would like to thank you. Besides Israel and the terrorist threat, this is a major issue for me, and I appreciate your giving it visibility.

And this article was very cool.

For those who don't like reading the evo threads, there is a choice...post on another thread. I tend to ignore the tech threads myself--I don't understand code and I don't find it all that interesting, but I understand that others do.

648 MeCurious  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:22:09pm

re: #400 Honorary Yooper

C O N G R A T U L A T I O N S ! ! !

649 Dan G.  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:22:17pm

re: #632 taxfreekiller

Mutations that occur in adults don't give them new organs... they given them cancer.

650 HelloDare  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:22:27pm

re: #639 joelt

I guess I would be impressed if the e. coli had evolved to something that wasn't e coli. Gaining or losing a characteristic is not evolution.

The E. Coli voted for Kucinich. But you can't really call that evolved.

651 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:22:41pm

re: #640 taxfreekiller

ZZ TOP or George Thourgood, or The Eagles

Puh-leeze!

Do not even speak those names in my presence.

652 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:22:50pm

re: #639 joelt

I guess I would be impressed if the e. coli had evolved to something that wasn't e coli. Gaining or losing a characteristic is not evolution.

if had turned into an elephant people would claim divine intervention not evolution

653 OldLineTexan  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:23:02pm

re: #643 zombie

And here we go back to square one.

So don't go. Allow the thread to evolve.

/

654 unclassifiable  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:23:08pm

re: #636 opnion

Sorry. Made an invalid assumption.

655 JCM  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:23:11pm

re: #639 joelt

I guess I would be impressed if the e. coli had evolved to something that wasn't e coli. Gaining or losing a characteristic is not evolution.

When that characteristic is caused by a change in the genetic structure, it is the basic building block.

656 ethanxxx  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:23:26pm

This is starting to... kinda PISS ME OFF! Some of you are basically arguing the existence, or non-existence, of God as if you "Think" you know the answer. Anybody on either side of this argument who pretends to know the answer isn't just wrong... they are forever lost. We might as well be arguing the designated batting rule. And there have definitely been comments and suggestions in this thread and others, that imply that people who believe in the "Possibility" of God, and therefore the "Possibility" of creation, are extreme and contaminating the Republican party. And that is a hell of a lot scarier to me than the possibility of the Progressive Left being in charge of this world.

657 George guy  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:23:28pm

Creationists might be tempted to assume that E.coli already possessed most of the genes required to metabolize citrate. Seeing that it's a facultative anaerobic bacterium, that means it's capable of aerobic respiration when there's oxygen, and in the aerobic respiration cycle there is a step in which citrate is produced and then broken down in subsequent steps.
The enzymes needed to break down citrate would then likely be regulated to a small amount, since no more is needed than required to carry along the cycle. But if the genes governing those mechanisms were damaged, that might cause the bacterium to produce a lot more of those enzymes, which would allow it to feed directly on citrate. While an effective adaptation in environments where large amounts of citrate are available, it may not necessarily be beneficial on the whole if the cellular machinery still produces extra quantities of those enzymes absent a citrate-rich diet. In that kind of situation it would be a waste and a disadvantage to the bacterium's prospects of survival.

If all that stuff I just described turns out to be the case, this piece of data would remain consistent with the creationist narrative that life is deteriorating, just as a point to note.

But I'm not a biologist, so any corrections would be welcome if I happen to be way off base here.

658 jc59  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:23:42pm

re: #607 Gordon Marock

False,
1) Not necessarily a single common ancestor;
3) Mutation is not a 'freak occurrence' It happens every day, and is observable by science. And, extended over 100's of millions of years, no big mystery how it happended.


The common ancestor part is a fundamental principle of the theory.

"A theory of universal common descent based on evolutionary principles was proposed by Charles Darwin in his book On the Origin of Species (1859), and later in The Descent of Man (1871). This theory is now generally accepted by biologists, and the last universal common ancestor (LUCA or LUA), that is, the most recent common ancestor of all currently living organisms, is believed to have appeared about 3.9 billion years ago. The theory of a common ancestor between all organisms is one of the principles of evolution, although for single cell organisms and viruses, single phylogeny is disputed (see: origin of life)."

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]


I did not use the term "freak occurrence" to refer to mutation. I used it to refer to the first presence of life-- which all parties would agree was, well, miraculous.

659 LeftJustAintRight  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:23:49pm

re: #633 reine.de.tout

Yes, I need a margarita. Or something.

Margaritaville

660 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:23:53pm

Beatles, Queen , Iron Maiden

661 Mich-again  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:24:00pm

There are more than a few "hoaxes" being pushed in public school curricula these days. Heck, they made my kid and all the others watch An Inconvenient Truth. Global Warming is taught as fact. That condom distribution is the best way to eliminate teen pregnancies is taught as fact. "Islam is a peaceful religion" is taught as fact. That the Civil War was fought to end slavery is taught as fact. The purpose for the United Nations is to promote freedom and human rights is taught as fact.

All hoaxes.

662 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:24:22pm

re: #647 transient

I can never keep up with the comments.

Charles, you've taken heat for all the evolution related threads you've posted but I would like to thank you. Besides Israel and the terrorist threat, this is a major issue for me, and I appreciate your giving it visibility.

And this article was very cool.

Thanks. I thought it was a very cool experiment, too -- that's why I posted the article, not to bash anyone.

663 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:24:54pm
664 traeh  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:24:59pm

Evolution is a fact. To that extent ID is misguided. But the exclusively materialist explanation of evolution is profoundly inadequate. Material factors obviously play an important role, but form is not something reducible to matter. Form is always fundamentally understandable as relationship. Relationships have no taste, no smell, no sound, no color, no mass. They can be perceived only by the mind. That we can recognize at all the forms to which material objects around us approximate is due to purely non-material ideation. Without ideas, the world would appear to us to be, as William James put it, a "blooming, buzzing confusion."

Science, however, deals with material factors only. That is all it can do. Science tests the truth of its hypotheses by means of physical measurement. Insofar as irreducible non-material factors are present in the world, those factors must be ignored by science as currently understood, because non-material factors cannot be dealt with quantitatively by material measurement. But those immaterial factors are there. They are the larger portion of what is there. As long as biology seeks to deal with evolution in an exclusively materialistic way, there will be attempts to remedy that, including inadequate and misguided attempts, like ID, which denies evolution. But there should be a way to deal with evolution that includes material factors and does not reduce morphology exclusively to those material factors. Form, fundamentally, is not material. To get to the heart of form probably requires a focus on form as mobile, i.e., on metamorphosis.

665 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:25:29pm

re: #657 George guy

Uh. It's kind of obvious that you aren't a biologist. But don't let that stop you.

666 freetoken  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:25:50pm

re: #646 OldLineTexan


//three hours if beer is involved

Beer is a mutation accelerant.

667 OldLineTexan  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:25:58pm

re: #663 taxfreekiller

So, do bugs go to war over oil?

Food, usually.

668 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:26:01pm
669 angst  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:26:03pm

re: #630 Dan G.

There is already a DNA aptamer that can discern the prior form vs. native form. But I believe that its purpose will be for diagnosis, not treatment (at least for now).

Takemura et al. "DNA Aptamers That Bind to PrPC and Not PrPSc Show Sequence and Structure Specificity" Exp Biol Med 231:204–214, 2006.

Thanks for the reference. Prion disease fascinates me ever since a friend gave me "Deadly Feast" to read. Even a diagnostic tool would be excellent given what we have now. I actually had an acquaintance whose relative contracted CJD when a goose crashed through his airplane window and hit him. Talk about lightning striking twice. Of course, they can't prove that it was the goose but that's the theory.

670 hazzyday  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:26:07pm

Jindal Article

In this transcript I am not seeing where Jindal supports ID. Maybe I just can't read it correctly.

His quoted transcript is:

As a parent, when my kids go to schools, when they go to public schools, I want them to be presented with the best thinking. I want them to be able to make decisions for themselves. I want them to see the best data. I personally think that the life, human life and the world we live in wasn't created accidentally. I do think that there's a creator. I'm a Christian. I do think that God played a role in creating not only earth, but mankind. Now, the way that he did it, I'd certainly want my kids to be exposed to the very best science. I don't want them to be - I don't want any facts or theories or explanations to be withheld from them because of political correctness. The way we're going to have smart, intelligent kids is exposing them to the very best science and let them not only decide, but also let them contribute to that body of knowledge. That's what makes the scientific process so exciting. You get to go there and find facts and data and test what's come before you and challenge those theories.

Further down are some indirect statments but not from Jindal himself. I looked at his website and didn't see much.

I did learn about "flat earth" and "the earth as center of the universe" in high school science classes. It was probably a few short paragraphs iin the very last chapter. Or in the historical buildup to current knowledge. ID can be taught in school if it is framed correctly. There is not much I agree with about it. The chapter should be titled "Is there science in ID or Astrology?" Do they contribute to the boon of mankind? Replacing biology? I doubt if that is a good choice. I would rather the student become a critical thinker.

671 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:26:20pm
672 NoSpam  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:26:26pm

A little mind dump for everybody. Perhaps this will make evolution make a little more sense. Keep in mind, I'm also a Christian, so if I can make this all work out in my brain, then so can you.

There is NO SUCH THING as macroevolution. That terminology is, to put it mildly, stupid. One thing does not just randomly change into another thing overnight.

What there is, however, is cumulative microevolution, which is what you're seeing in the ecoli experiment. A buildup of minor changes over time that lead to a larger, observable result. Say you start with a car made from legos, and you remove (or add) bricks one at a time. Change enough of the bricks around and you'll get a helicopter, or a house. That's how evolution works to change one thing into another, through small blundering steps. These steps are greatly infulenced by the creature's environment. Migration of species (or catastophic environmental change) causes change in species by forcing that change.

It also isn't exactly 'random,' either. Changes are infulenced by the environment, such that you will see certain kinds of mutations in certain environments. There are likely many causes--such as radiation levels, changes in nutrient/vitamin intake, etc.--all having an infulence on the proteins that maintain the genome. Example: say a sudden change in a creature's diet causes a certain vitamin deficiency. This vitamin deficiency in turn effects the levels of a certain protein in its cells. These reduced protein levels result in an increase in damage to certain areas of certain chromosomes, which will cause certain types of mutations. (I'm probably not explaining this well, but I'm tired so nyah :P)

As for "loss of information" (another strange term) the best I can do is to rephrase a rebuttal I heard a while ago.

Say you start with a stream. The stream has three boulders in it that allow you to cross the water without getting wet. But boats cannot use the stream because they will wreck on the rocks. Now somebody adds a plank spanning the three boulders, making a little bridge. The plank wobbles a little but it is still possible to cross the water without falling in, but the boats still cannot pass. But one day, the river floods, and the middle boulder is washed away ('losing information') The bridge is now only made of 3 parts instead of 4, but it doesn't wobble anymore because the middle boulder is gone, and actually makes a better bridge because people can paddle their boats under it without crashing into the rocks.

More parts (i.e. more base pairs) does not necessarily mean more complex. Certain species of wine grapes have MORE GENES than we do, and yet the grapes are incapable of calculus.

What annoys me the most is that the so-called Champions of Science(tm) cannot get their own theories straight, to there is often a lot of misinformation floating about with reguards to what evolution is (or isn't). It's not scary, it doesn't conflict with a belief in God, and the idea that my grilled chicken that I bought from Applebees today is somehow related to a T-Rex makes it all the more awesome.

Also, Dawkins is a shithead, and needs to crawl back under whatever slime-covered rock he came from. (More proof that some of us are more evolved than others I suppose....) He and his ilk do more disservice to science than the creationists because far more people take him seriously. ('Cause he's got a science degree, you know.)

673 LeftJustAintRight  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:27:17pm

re: #666 freetoken

Beer is a mutation accelerant.

Beergoggles
Beer improves your sight


/or lowers your standards

674 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:27:31pm
675 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:27:49pm

re: #666 freetoken

Beer is a mutation accelerant.

It makes a homely person beautiful in the eyes of the drinker as the night grows old.

676 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:27:53pm

I should point out that in the Bible/Torah there were floods. Everything today is not a direct line (so-to-say) from Adam. More like Noah & the changes thereafter.

677 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:27:57pm

re: #674 buzzsawmonkey

Like a lot of boobs, you are referencing Darwin's original work as though it represented the theory of evolution, which has itself evolved considerably since Darwin first propounded it.

hahaha he said boobs

/beavis

678 Mich-again  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:28:08pm

Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Alice in Chains.

679 NoSpam  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:28:09pm

re: #516 Purple Prose

Funny. This is not a new experiment. It is 4,000,000,000 years old.

lol

We'll have to drag him before the diciplinary committee on the grounds that he's trying to claim work that's been in the public domain for millenia as his own. :P

680 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:28:13pm

re: #656 ethanxxx

...And there have definitely been comments and suggestions in this thread and others, that imply that people who believe in the "Possibility" of God, and therefore the "Possibility" of creation, are extreme and contaminating the Republican party. And that is a hell of a lot scarier to me than the possibility of the Progressive Left being in charge of this world.

I never once said anything against belief in God. But I stand by my statement that the creationism issue has already seriously damaged the Republican Party, and if this keeps up it's going to damage it a whole lot more.

If you see neo-conservatives who believe in science as being scarier than a socialist demagogue, then that's your prerogative I guess. I guess you'll be voting for Obama, in that case!

681 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:28:14pm

re: #670 hazzyday

ID can be taught in school if it is framed correctly.

No. "Intelligent design" is not science, and it does not belong in science classrooms. If it's taught as religion, no problem.

682 Boogberg  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:29:01pm

Just out of curiosity, I searched "g_d" on google. This was top of the list:

[Link: www.jesus-is-savior.com...]

I notice many lizards choose to leave "o" out of "God". Any comments?

683 opnion  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:29:03pm

re: #654 unclassifiable

Sorry. Made an invalid assumption.

Be not troubled, an honest mistake. Thes weekend the might of the White Sox Nation, descends upon the 'Friendly Confines" of Wrigley Field. In this 3 game set justice will be administered and order restored.
The Sox will sweep the Cubs.

684 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:29:11pm

re: #681 Charles

Where is the harm in teaching Creation?

685 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:29:20pm

re: #660 Shug

Beatles, Queen , Iron Maiden

Gee thee from my sight!

686 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:29:25pm

What I think is really neat is the science behind the science. Imagine, following 31,500 generations of anything. Even if they pop off in rapid succession, it still took, what-20 years or so?

Imagine the time, the effort into understanding the basic building blocks of life. The incredible machines and people that are working to unlock the nature of all that is and the world around them.

And to think, only recently was Michelle Obama proud of her country.

687 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:29:29pm

On a thread about e. coli every time I see the letters ID, I automatically think it refers to Infections Disease

688 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:29:30pm

bbl Gotta' clean the hamster's cage again. He sure sure does poop a lot for such a little critter.

689 jc59  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:29:31pm

re: #674 buzzsawmonkey

Like a lot of boobs, you are referencing Darwin's original work as though it represented the theory of evolution, which has itself evolved considerably since Darwin first propounded it.

Hint: It works better if you actually read the posts you comment on.

"This theory is now generally accepted by biologists"

690 MajorPribluda  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:29:46pm

re: #82 Agahnim

That's actually how I was taught in my Zoology class the first day. Everything had been proven, it was a fact, and if anyone had any questions about it they could leave the class. He was a great teacher though, and actually believed in some latent psychic abilities.

I miss him. =(

Good Heavens. Your teacher was a moron.

691 kenneth  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:29:55pm

re: #546 really grumpy big dog Johnson

Buddy, don't take it so hard. I am often accused of being obtuse. We read, we post, we wish we used the preview button.

692 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:30:23pm
693 Pshawalaw  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:30:36pm

re: #410 Hanoch

You are confusing ID for creationism.

694 transient  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:30:39pm

re: #42 Pshawalaw

That would interest a lot of us, and we're not there yet. But there may be a few early clues in the HAR genes.

Comparing Chimp, Human DNA:

"The differences between chimps and humans are not in our proteins, but in how we use them," said Katherine Pollard, assistant professor at the UC Davis Genome Center and the Department of Statistics.

Pollard and colleagues...looked for stretches of DNA that were highly conserved between chimpanzees, mice and rats. Then they compared those sequences to the human genome sequence, to find pieces of DNA that had undergone the most rapid change since the ancestors of chimps and humans diverged about five million years ago.

They found 202 "highly accelerated regions" or HARs, which showed a high rate of evolution between humans and chimps. Only three of those regions contain genes that are likely to encode proteins. The most dramatically accelerated region, HAR1, appears to make a piece of RNA that may have a function in brain development.

The other highly accelerated regions do not appear to code for genes at all, but many are located close to genes involved in controlling when other genes get made, or in growth and development.

"They're not in genes, but they're near genes that do some very important stuff," Pollard said.

695 JCM  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:30:46pm

re: #685 zombie

Gee thee from my sight!

This ID thread has evolved into something really, really ugly.

A battle of the bands thread.....

696 LeftJustAintRight  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:30:46pm
697 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:30:51pm

Uh...Metallica, AC/DC, Offspring?

[ducks bricks]

698 theparson  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:30:56pm

The Partridge Family, The Monkeys, Herman's Hermits.

699 Cicero05  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:31:03pm

re: #684 WrathofG-d

Where is the harm in teaching Creation?

Or alchemy, for that matter

700 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:31:12pm
701 rightymouse  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:31:21pm

The idea of 'creation' by a higher power is often mocked in science classes.

702 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:31:40pm

re: #699 Cicero05

What is your point exactly? Don't be coy. What are you really tying to say?

703 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:31:57pm

re: #685 zombie

Beatles, Queen , Iron Maiden

Gee thee from my sight!

OK

Queen, Iron Maiden , Buggles

the beatles are over rated
happy ?

704 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:32:16pm

re: #695 JCM

This ID thread has evolved into something really, really ugly.

A battle of the bands thread.....

Verily, there is nothing worse.

705 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:32:16pm
706 freetoken  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:32:44pm

re: #684 WrathofG-d

Where is the harm in teaching Creation?

It makes for a really good discussion in philosophy classes in schools. It also make for really good discussions in theology classes (or in Sunday school classes.)

The objection being raised here is solely about the guise of "ID" as a means of teaching teleology in science class.

707 protestshooter  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:32:57pm

re: #701 rightymouse

The idea of 'creation' by a higher power is often mocked in science classes.

I never once heard creation brought up either way in science classes, and I have some science diplomas around here someplace. :-)

708 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:33:02pm

Did the beatles evolve ?

or was it the drugs?

709 Boogberg  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:33:13pm

re: #703 Shug


the beatles are over rated
happy ?

Blasphemy! :D

710 LeftJustAintRight  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:33:21pm

re: #704 Charles

Verily, there is nothing worse.

Is it hard on the hamsters ?
LOL

711 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:33:21pm
712 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:33:46pm

re: #684 WrathofG-d

In a religious studies class, a philospohy class or a biology class?

713 Mich-again  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:33:57pm

I had a fake ID when I was in high school.

714 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:34:05pm

re: #706 freetoken

Where is the harm in stating that one theory of creation is that we evolved out of much, and the other is that we are the result of an intelligent creator?

715 goddessoftheclassroom  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:34:12pm

re: #692 taxfreekiller

Right now before ourselves humans are proving that ID did not work,
each day humans work for the msm, some are leaders in N. Korea, some are mullas in Iran, some are nut case islamics, now tell me that
thats ID, if it is, some one screwed up big time and should be shit caned.

Your examples of are human free will, not any design.

716 JCM  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:34:20pm

re: #699 Cicero05

Or alchemy, for that matter

Hey, as soon as figure out how to turn lead to gold I'll be rich. It can be done via controlled radioactive decay, but is damn expensive... that's the part I need to work on.

717 Cicero05  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:34:22pm

re: #702 WrathofG-d

What is your point exactly? Don't be coy. What are you really tying to say?

My point is, that if you're going to teach one course based on long-discredited theories and call it science, why stop there?

718 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:34:24pm

Prince Buster, Desmond Dekker, Justin Hines!

I declare the contest over.

719 zoidberg  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:34:25pm

re: #6 Eowyn2

Girls might still have them - after all, what else will they paint?

720 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:34:28pm

re: #712 brainwizard73

Science.

721 HelloDare  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:34:35pm

re: #704 Charles

Verily, there is nothing worse.

Devolution.

722 Dan G.  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:34:50pm

re: #669 angst

No problem.

Re the bird strike: THAT is odd!

re: #694 transient

"...when genes get made..." Epigenetics, its VERY interesting stuff.

723 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:34:55pm
724 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:34:58pm

re: #711 taxfreekiller

One of the finest, truest rock and roll bands ever. No fads, no trends, no re-inventing self...just the music.

And probably a little ETOH.

725 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:34:59pm

re: #721 HelloDare

Devolution.

Whip it

726 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:35:01pm

re: #717 Cicero05

So the belief that G-d created humans is "long discredited"?

727 J.S.  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:35:15pm

re: #594 jc59

2) all variation between different forms of life is the product of natural selection-- and only natural selection.

Your Number 2 is FALSE. This is NOT according to Darwin's Theory of Evolution. There are 3 Principles of Darwinian Evolution:

1) The principle of variation. Among individuals within any population, there is variation in morphology, physiology, and behavior. (Mutations are the ultimate source of the variation, but this randomness does not drive evolution -- the driving force is natural selection).
2) The principle of heredity. Offspring resemble their parents more than they resemble unrelated individuals.
3) The principle of selection. Some forms are more successful at surviving and reproducing than other forms in a given environment. (selection occurs at the level of the phenotype, not the genotype).

728 NoSpam  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:35:18pm

re: #682 Boogberg

Just out of curiosity, I searched "g_d" on google. This was top of the list:

[Link: www.jesus-is-savior.com...]

I notice many lizards choose to leave "o" out of "God". Any comments?

I believe it's based on a tradition where you're not supposed to speak (or write) the Lord's name. I do not know if it is specifically a Jewish tradition but I've noticed in my personal experience it appears to be used most often by Jewish people rather than Christians. I'm sure there are other people here who could answer more in depth.

729 brickthruplateglasswindow  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:35:21pm

re: #697 brainwizard73

Uh...Metallica, AC/DC, Offspring?

[ducks bricks]

And I result.

730 kenneth  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:36:04pm

re: #602 theatheistjew

I am not an "evolutionist". I am a scientist who understands the validity of good science. Period

731 MajorPribluda  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:36:06pm

re: #132 zombie

schneidballs, people have been studying this exact topic for decades and decades. Charles is correct, it has nothing to do with the "amount" of DNA. There's enough information floating around in any species' DNA to do a whole lotta evolving. The mere fact that you personally connot visualize how it works doesn't mean it can't work.

it works all the time.

Oh, nonsense. Everybody knows that more information is heavier. Just look at floppy disks. You can tell which ones are freshly formatted because they weigh the least. And if you use a smaller font, you can save a lot of hard drive space.

--Discovery Institute Network User's Handbook

732 HelloDare  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:36:16pm

Are there any good creationist bands?

733 jc59  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:36:19pm

re: #700 buzzsawmonkey

Let me make sure I understand what you are saying.

You dispute that common descent is a generally accepted part of the theory of evolution?

734 LeftJustAintRight  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:36:20pm
735 BignJames  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:36:21pm

re: #718 zombie

Told ya.

The Monkees.

736 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:36:21pm
737 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:36:36pm

re: #714 WrathofG-d

Where is the harm in stating that one theory of creation is that we evolved out of much, and the other is that we are the result of an intelligent creator?

The harm is that one is science and one is religion. America's founding fathers foresaw this problem, and wrote the Establishment Clause specifically to prevent them from being confused.

And we're still fighting about it today.

738 Mich-again  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:36:42pm

re: #732 HelloDare

Kings X !

739 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:36:45pm

re: #714 WrathofG-d

Where is the harm in stating that one theory of creation is that we evolved out of much, and the other is that we are the result of an intelligent creator?

The creationist/ID movement wishes to indoctrinate students in a particular religious view. It may or may not match yours.

Will your children be better off learning science in science class, geography in geography class, math in math class, and religious values and faith in your home, at your church, or synagogue, rather than in a public classroom where the religious curriculum and what is taught and the way it is taught has been approved by - somebody who is not you?

740 MacGregor  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:37:09pm

re: #486 Maximu§

What if one takes a different perspective - Earthly beings have been evolving for billions of years. Through meteors and ice ages. What if souls did not "break off" from the universal energy/soul/oneness until substantial evolution had taken place.

What if Adam and Eve were souls deciding to experience earthly physical pleasures against said energy/soul/oneness 's wishes - That might be the original sin.

741 angst  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:37:14pm

If you're the kind of person that like to think about life, the universe and everything else, here's an article from MIT's Technology Review: Where are they? I'm sure some of you already know all about this but I hadn't and thought it was cool.

If you don't want to to register, just run a search for "The Great Filter". But really, the article will blow your mind, make you feel very fortunate and a little worried all at the same time.

742 rightymouse  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:37:18pm

re: #707 protestshooter

I never once heard creation brought up either way in science classes, and I have some science diplomas around here someplace. :-)

I have heard it mocked - it's not science in their definition and therefore should be pooh-poohed in terms of being part of ANY equation regarding the beginning of our earth/universe. Bad teachers perhaps.

I'd have the same problem with a religion class teaching Genesis literally.

743 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:37:32pm

re: #732 HelloDare

Are there any good creationist bands?

The Burka Band

744 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:37:34pm

re: #732 HelloDare

Are there any good creationist bands?

No.

745 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:37:34pm
746 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:37:41pm

re: #720 WrathofG-d

So what if it isn't tought in a biology class? Couldn't intelligent students be exposed to the issue in religion and/or philospohy classes and then free to make thier own connections?

747 Cicero05  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:37:43pm

re: #726 WrathofG-d

So the belief that G-d created humans is "long discredited"?

Back to the beginning of the thread...

748 HelloDare  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:38:27pm

re: #744 Charles

No.

Now you're really asking for it.

749 jaunte  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:38:30pm

Here's one problem with teaching creation in science class.
Whose version will you teach, and how many unproductive lawsuits do you think will result?

US Religious groupings, From the CIA factbook:
Protestant 51.3%,
Roman Catholic 23.9%,
Mormon 1.7%,
other Christian 1.6%,
Jewish 1.7%,
Buddhist 0.7%,
Muslim 0.6%,
other or unspecified 2.5%,
unaffiliated 12.1%,
none 4% (2007 est.)

According to the American Bar Association there are currently 1,116,967 lawyers practicing in the United States.

750 opnion  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:38:36pm

Evolution, ast least as I see it does not deny the possiblity of a Supreme Being.
However the biblical story of the Garden of Eden is just hocus pocus.
I went to Catholic grade school & the priest told us that.
Clinging to absurdities does not help anything

751 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:38:41pm

re: #737 Charles

Well I would disagree about the purpose of the Establishment Clause (or really any part of it) having to do with teaching that G-d created humans in school.

But could one not use science to prove Creation by an Intelligent Designer?

752 EC Marm  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:38:42pm

re: #474 zombie

Ha! Brilliant!


Ah ha!
I simply hid the source code from my son. Without the source code it was impossible to see the 1 + 1 = 3 error.
Would not a divine entity also have both the ability and desire to hide the source code?
I'm not a creationist by any means, I just feel that the maybe 3,000 years of serious knowledge of science that has occurred on a planet that is 4.5 billion years old, in a universe that is even older than that, is no match for that of a much higher entity. I remain skeptical of definitive arguments from both camps.

753 LeftJustAintRight  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:38:49pm

re: #732 HelloDare

Are there any good creationist bands?

Try This

754 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:38:58pm

re: #743 Shug

The Burka Band

The Jihad Jimmies?

755 NoSpam  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:39:15pm

re: #701 rightymouse

The idea of 'creation' by a higher power is often mocked in science classes.


Because a lot of 'scientists' need to get the hell over themselves. As opposed to treating peole like idiots, perhaps if they taught their classes better and engaged in substantial debate they would realize that it's really not so hard for everybody to get along.

Scientists, specifically the 'second tier' ones (the also-rans) who don't have much in the way of personal accomplishments or contributions to society as a whole, like to belittle others to make up for their own percieved shortcomings.

Case in point: PZ Meyers *barf*

756 MajorPribluda  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:39:16pm

Best bands for this thread:

Rush, Freewill

Rush, Natural Science

Rush, Anthem

757 Cicero05  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:39:22pm

So how does Xenu fit into all of this?

758 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:39:39pm

re: #739 reine.de.tout

I will agree with you about the ID movement. I do not support it as a political movement. I am only discussing the belief that there was an Intelligent Creator being taught in Science. (and in fact using Scientific Method to do so)

759 goddessoftheclassroom  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:39:46pm

re: #750 opnion

Evolution, ast least as I see it does not deny the possiblity of a Supreme Being.
However the biblical story of the Garden of Eden is just hocus pocus.
I went to Catholic grade school & the priest told us that.
Clinging to absurdities does not help anything

Neither does calling others' beliefs "absurd."

760 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:39:49pm

re: #739 reine.de.tout

The creationist/ID movement wishes to indoctrinate students in a particular religious view. It may or may not match yours.


That's a very good point. Somewhere in my readings on the Disco Institue I found that plenty of Jewish employees have left because they eventually got creeped out by the the zealous Christian agenda. I can look for the link if anyone really wants to challenge this.

761 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:39:51pm

Speaking of religion:

I actually discovered a new religion today, when I posted this authentic advertisement for "Confutopia" at the Mohammed Archive. The caption reads:

This advertisement for Taiwan's "Confutopia Church" (a combination of "Confucius" and "utopia") shows Mohammed holding hands with a pantheon of historical spiritual leaders. The figures, from left to right, are: A Taiwanese aborigine, Mohammed, Confucius, Jesus, Buddha, Socrates, and Lao-Tzu. (The first figure might instead be Krishna -- it's not clear).

And no, it is not a joke. It's a real religion.

It has almost no Web presence in English, but I was sent the ad by someone who said they're starting to prosletyze on US college campuses.

You heard it here first!

Soon, we'll all be Confutopians!

762 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:39:52pm

re: #751 WrathofG-d

Well I would disagree about the purpose of the Establishment Clause (or really any part of it) having to do with teaching that G-d created humans in school.

But could one not use science to prove Creation by an Intelligent Designer?

If you can do that, your name will echo down through the ages. Give it a try.

763 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:40:01pm

re: #757 Cicero05

So how does Xenu fit into all of this?

if you pay me 100,000$ I will tell you

/L Ron

764 brickthruplateglasswindow  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:40:02pm

re: #744 Charles

No.

Adam and the Ants?

765 angst  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:40:04pm

re: #741 angst

If you're the kind of person that like to think about life, the universe and everything else, here's an article from MIT's Technology Review: Where are they? I'm sure some of you already know all about this but I hadn't and thought it was cool.

If you don't want to to register, just run a search for "The Great Filter". But really, the article will blow your mind, make you feel very fortunate and a little worried all at the same time.

Oh- it does relate to evolution and perhaps the limits of it regarding intelligent life.

766 opnion  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:40:08pm

re: #732 HelloDare

Are there any good creationist bands?

Yeah, they do Rock n Roll jesus

767 HelloDare  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:40:13pm

re: #753 LeftJustAintRight

Hallelujah.

768 jc59  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:40:23pm

re: #727 J.S.

Your Number 2 is FALSE. This is NOT according to Darwin's Theory of Evolution. There are 3 Principles of Darwinian Evolution:

1) The principle of variation. Among individuals within any population, there is variation in morphology, physiology, and behavior. (Mutations are the ultimate source of the variation, but this randomness does not drive evolution -- the driving force is natural selection).
2) The principle of heredity. Offspring resemble their parents more than they resemble unrelated individuals.
3) The principle of selection. Some forms are more successful at surviving and reproducing than other forms in a given environment. (selection occurs at the level of the phenotype, not the genotype).

The idea of natural selection presupposes that there is variation in the population and that the "favored" traits are inheritable. You're just stating what was implicit in my formulation of natural selection.

769 MajorPribluda  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:40:32pm

re: #684 WrathofG-d

Where is the harm in teaching Creation?

Where is the harm in teaching Sharia?

770 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:40:44pm

re: #757 Cicero05

Damn it, I wish I had thought of that...I bow to your magnificence.

771 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:41:18pm

re: #769 MajorPribluda

Where is the harm in teaching Sharia?

bad comparison.

772 brickthruplateglasswindow  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:41:47pm

re: #769 MajorPribluda

Where is the harm in teaching Sharia?

Teaching? Nothing. Implementing? Much.

773 MajorPribluda  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:41:51pm

re: #761 zombie

Speaking of religion:

I actually discovered a new religion today, when I posted this authentic advertisement for "Confutopia" at the Mohammed Archive. The caption reads:


And no, it is not a joke. It's a real religion.

It has almost no Web presence in English, but I was sent the ad by someone who said they're starting to prosletyze on US college campuses.

You heard it here first!

Soon, we'll all be Confutopians!

Sun Myung Moonitarians?

774 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:42:00pm

re: #761 zombie

looks like Untitarianism to me.

775 theparson  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:42:09pm

re: #739 reine.de.tout

Booyah! Give that man(?) a gold star!

My example is prayer in schools. Many of my colleagues continue to scream that prayer has been banned in schools. It has not! What has happened is that children are no longer forced to prayer the way a particular leader wants them to pray. Sure, I'm happy when the prayer leader is of my particular religious "brand" but, what if tomorrow's prayer leader is Muslim? Am I still for prayer in schools?
Same with creation being taught in school. I want to choose who teaches my children when it comes to religion. I don't want the TEA/NEA making that choice.

776 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:42:21pm

re: #758 WrathofG-d

I will agree with you about the ID movement. I do not support it as a political movement. I am only discussing the belief that there was an Intelligent Creator being taught in Science. (and in fact using Scientific Method to do so)

That belief belongs in religion, or religious studies, or philosophy classes. It is not science.

777 Mich-again  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:42:29pm

re: #744 Charles

No.

Ya can't prove a negative.

778 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:42:31pm

re: #747 Cicero05

You are unable to answer the question? Or are you going to tell me that you can teach evolution somehow within the bounds of the book of Genesis (which one actually might be able to).

Because if you can't then you simply regulate Religion to "myth" or "theory" or "philosophy" (ie: make believe concepts) and I believe that this is what upsets the Religions people on LGF.

779 MajorPribluda  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:42:36pm

re: #771 Shug

bad comparison.

What's the harm in teaching turtles, all the way down?

780 George guy  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:42:37pm

re: #665 Charles

Yes, I most certainly am not a biologist. Not professionally, and not in any significant sense as an amateur, either.

781 JHW  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:42:46pm

re: #761 zombie

How about worshiping Victor Hugo as a saint?
Cao Dai

782 jc59  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:42:55pm

re: #745 buzzsawmonkey

I'm saying you're full of sh*t, and intentionally setting up false premises to preserve your carefully-tended ignorance.


Admit it, you didn't know that common descent was a core part of the theory of evolution.

783 LeftJustAintRight  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:42:58pm
784 freetoken  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:42:59pm

re: #714 WrathofG-d

My main objection to the ID movement is that it is disingenuous movement, not that I desire people to not have a belief in God. What the ID proponents are trying to do is deceitful. If one wants to express one's belief in a Creator God then that person should do so, and not try to disguise their belief in an attempt to subvert another effort (in this case the teaching of science.)

So the question gets turned back to you... why do you want ID to be taught in science class?

Unless you can make the case that ID is the best scientific thinking we have today, then there would be no basis for including it in a science class, IMO.

785 tgibson1962  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:43:10pm

re: #718 zombie

Not so fast!

Johnny Cash, Johnny Cash, Johnny Cash

786 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:43:21pm

re: #780 George guy

Yes, I most certainly am not a biologist. Not professionally, and not in any significant sense as an amateur, either.

Somehow, I guessed that.

787 HelloDare  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:43:23pm

re: #761 zombie

Sure that's not Kung Futopians?

788 Noam Sayin'  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:43:32pm

re: #756 MajorPribluda

It's customary to provide links...

789 MajorPribluda  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:43:43pm

re: #774 Killgore Trout

looks like Untitarianism to me.

Are their inductees called A-cup-olytes?

790 Summer  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:43:44pm

Hi again!

I'm just passing through to say hello to Zombie who is totally awesome, and to also say that I got too busy today to get online until now, really. So I never did answer why a micro black hole would self implode. But since we're on ID again and I have a moment, I'd just like to take this opportunity to give the creationists a chance to ding me down! =)

Intelligent Design isn't science. It isn't right. It isn't even wrong!

791 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:43:45pm

re: #732 HelloDare

Are there any good creationist bands?

Actually, yes. Sixpence None the Richer are pretty spectacular, and I believe they may have been creationists. (Seriously.)

792 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:44:01pm

You're all WAY off base.

It all has to do with:

1) Karl Popper (now with authentic imitation buttery flavor) and

2) Panspermia.

793 JCM  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:44:04pm

re: #744 Charles

No.

I thought all good bands were creative!
Or is just an adaptation of the same old tune?

*I'm in trouble now ;-P*

794 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:44:14pm

re: #775 theparson

Booyah! Give that man(?) a gold star! . . .

Thank you. And I'm a she Queen, not a he Queen.

795 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:44:18pm

re: #789 MajorPribluda

Heh.
/PIMF

796 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:44:35pm

re: #762 Charles

Unfortunately I am much too old, and that is not my area of expertise. But the point I am trying to make is that I do not see Science and Intelligent design as being mutually exclusive.

We must understand that our brilliance discoveries today are the ignorant assumptions of the future. (see flat earth, and sun revolving around earth)

797 NoSpam  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:44:44pm

re: #737 Charles

The harm is that one is science and one is religion. America's founding fathers foresaw this problem, and wrote the Establishment Clause specifically to prevent them from being confused.

And we're still fighting about it today.

I'll probably step on some toes here but the establishment clause was really meant as a way of preventing the establishment of a CoE-style blanket religious sect, as many of the colonies were founded around different backgrounds. Its a state's rights issue at its core.

That being said, I think we should teach religion in schools, but not in bio class, though I have no problem with people bringing up ID in the context of a good debate like we do here--it's helpful to argue sometimes, especially for kids to strengthen their critical thinking skills and to learn how to spot the flaws in an argument, even a carefully worded one like ID. Pretending the movement doesn't exist helps no one.

798 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:44:48pm
799 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:44:53pm

Worst Bands of all time

Any band where William shatner is the front man

800 MajorPribluda  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:45:11pm

re: #788 Noam Sayin'

It's customary to provide links...

Sir, you are correct. Just a moment while I close down and install some flash.

801 theparson  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:45:14pm

re: #794 reine.de.tout

Hence the (?).

802 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:45:35pm
803 NoSpam  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:45:39pm

re: #757 Cicero05

So how does Xenu fit into all of this?

Ssh. Tom Cruise might hear you...

804 kickstar1  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:45:55pm

And if they give it even MORE time, they could turn into Charles Johnson who made this awesome website promoting Truth, Justice and the American way right?

I mean that is what they are getting at right?

It all boils back down to how/ when did something come from nothing?

805 unclassifiable  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:46:13pm

re: #761 zombie

Not me. I'm a frisbeetarian.

I believe that when you die your soul get lost on top of the cosmic roof.

/yeah the best jokes are stolen

806 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:46:20pm
807 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:46:39pm

I listened to a really cool bit on NPR a few weeks ago about some young (grad. students?) researchers replaced the whatchamacallit in E. Coli that made it smell horrid with one that made it smell good--I think it was the whatchmacallit in some plant that smelled like wintergreen.

Yes, I endeavor to be specific yet I sometimes fail.

Now that the hamster's clean, it's on to scrubbing The Kid. Sport camp during the day and baseball at night tends to produce one smelly child. bbiab

808 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:46:41pm

re: #791 zombie

Actually, yes. Sixpence None the Richer are pretty spectacular, and I believe they may have been creationists. (Seriously.)

Clearly, you are bashing those of us with eardrums.

809 Noam Sayin'  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:46:49pm

re: #800 MajorPribluda

There's a good fellow...

810 brainwizard73  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:46:50pm

re: #803 NoSpam

Ssh. Tom Cruise might hear you...

Don't worry, he can't hear you in the closet...Cartman?

811 EC Marm  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:46:57pm

re: #802 ploome hineni

..are we still beating the ID horse?


I have no IDea.
/buckle up and slow down, infidel!

812 ethanxxx  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:47:08pm

re: #680 zombie

Oh... Hell no! My comments weren't directed at you. They were directed at both sides. You're right that "Extremists" on this issue, and many others, have done damage. I have know idea why I'm here and how it all began. I'm more in agreement with you than you might believe, based on your reply. And for the record, not to suck up, I think you are not just intelligent in your thinking but "Highly Creative" in your work. My main point was, nobody knows... So nobody should present either side as disproving the other. The Logical Obvious Facts, (Science for example), should always be the looked at as "Best Evidence".

813 goddessoftheclassroom  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:47:12pm

re: #769 MajorPribluda

Where is the harm in teaching Sharia?

There is no harm in EXPLAINING anything. The harm is imposing it as a way of life when it is contrary to the freedoms guaranteed in the Constitution and other bodies of law, especially freedom of choice.

I don't mind ID EXPLAINED in a science class as long as the teacher can help the students EVALUATE why it falls short of science. I think evolution MUST be taught; I do not think any teacher should belittle anyone's beliefs.

814 medaura18586  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:47:14pm

re: #792 Occasional Reader

Thanks for bringing the Popper into this. He should be mandatory reading for all creationists. Biology? That ship has sailed for them, but at least they can read Popper and repent of their epistemologically blasphemous ways!

815 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:47:29pm

re: #784 freetoken

I would teach them both as competing theories. I'd also use science to prove the existence of an Intelligent designer. (ie: G-d)

As one "looks behind" the purposes of those in ID, one should do the same with Evolutionists. One is to force G-d onto people, and the other is to replace G-d with Science. (or man)

Read: The Science of G-d.

816 opnion  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:47:31pm

re: #759 goddessoftheclassroom

Neither does calling others' beliefs "absurd."

Godess, this discussion only leads to vitriol. The believers in Genisis Creationism can never be convinced. It was not my intention to insult individuals , but only belief in a fairy tale.
Those that believe in the story of Genisis are not by definition better Christians than those that don't. I would submit though that they miss the point. It can not; or at least should not be taken literally.
If you feel insulted , I'm sorry, but I do not like supersticion.

817 JCM  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:47:36pm

re: #802 ploome hineni

..are we still beating the ID horse?

I though it had died

It's still got some life in it....
*whip* *whip* *whip* *whip* *whip* *whip* *whip* *whip* *whip* *whip* *whip* *whip* *whip* *whip* *whip* *whip* *whip* *whip*

818 Josephine  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:47:39pm

re: #799 Shug

I have Sonny Bono's solo album. It's hilariously bad. "Pammy's on a Bummer" is fun.

819 OldLineTexan  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:47:39pm

re: #774 Killgore Trout

looks like Untitarianism to me.

I do not believe in the UnTit.

/Breast Fundy

820 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:47:47pm

re: #801 theparson

Hence the (?).

Reine. (French for "Queen).
de (french for "of")
Tout (French for "all" or "everything").

821 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:48:03pm
822 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:48:22pm

re: #796 WrathofG-d

We must understand that our brilliance discoveries today are the ignorant assumptions of the future.

Um, no, not all of them. We try to build and accumulate knowledge, throwing out the old stuff when it's overtaken by the new.

I mean, we COULD teach astrology in astronomy classes, I suppose. But it would be a really, really bad idea.

823 JCM  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:48:56pm

re: #820 reine.de.tout

Reine. (French for "Queen).
de (french for "of")
Tout (French for "all" or "everything").

It's good to be the Queen!

824 Shug  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:48:59pm

re: #822 Occasional Reader

I mean, we COULD teach astrology in astronomy classes, I suppose. But it would be a really, really bad idea.

Not according to Mistress Cleo

825 theparson  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:49:13pm

re: #820 reine.de.tout

That French is Greek to me.

826 EC Marm  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:49:41pm

re: #822 Occasional Reader


I mean, we COULD teach astrology in astronomy classes, I suppose. But it would be a really, really bad idea.


You're obviously a Virgo.

827 Mich-again  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:49:49pm

re: #802 ploome hineni

..are we still beating the ID horse?

its glue already.

828 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:49:52pm

re: #822 Occasional Reader

You can assure me that Astrology will never be shown scientifically to be true? (i'd bet it won't but...)

829 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:50:18pm

re: #760 Killgore Trout

That's a very good point. Somewhere in my readings on the Disco Institue I found that plenty of Jewish employees have left because they eventually got creeped out by the the zealous Christian agenda. I can look for the link if anyone really wants to challenge this.

And never forget that the largest, most influential Creationist movement in the world is the Muslim Harun Yahya group.

The last time I mentioned them here, some people went ballistic. But if you're an American creationist, tell me this: Would you want the Harun Yahya-ites teaching science to your children? Because that's exactly what gonna happen if creationism is let into the schools and CAIR sues for equal treatment.

Think about it.

You may have never heard of Harun Yahya before but they're very influential and they'd jump into our curriculum in a heartbeat given half a chance.

830 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:50:24pm
831 blue_like_jazz  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:50:31pm

re: #826 EC Marm

"Come on, let's teach astrology! It will be FUN!"

// guess my sign =)

832 Boogberg  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:51:03pm

re: #728 NoSpam

I believe it's based on a tradition where you're not supposed to speak (or write) the Lord's name. I do not know if it is specifically a Jewish tradition but I've noticed in my personal experience it appears to be used most often by Jewish people rather than Christians. I'm sure there are other people here who could answer more in depth.

Ha! Reminds me of M. Night Shyamalan's The Village. "Those we don't speak of". :D

833 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:51:03pm

re: #826 EC Marm

You're obviously a Virgo.

Shit! How'd you know! (Wait, I'm a Leo)

I am continually amazed by how many putatively educated people believe "there's really something to astrology"... you know, "if it's done right".

834 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:51:13pm
835 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:51:23pm

re: #823 JCM

It's good to be the Queen!

Indeed, it is! The best part is I'm able to do it without hubby knowing that he is the Roi de Rien (King of Nothing).

836 Charles  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:52:13pm

re: #833 Occasional Reader

Shit! How'd you know! (Wait, I'm a Leo)

I am continually amazed by how many putatively educated people believe "there's really something to astrology"... you know, "if it's done right".

Myself, I'm a Feces with Scrotum Rising.

(Did I really type that?)

837 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:52:21pm
838 Desert Dog  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:52:30pm

re: #835 reine.de.tout

Roi de Folie here, mon amie

839 Summer  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:52:31pm

re: #815 WrathofG-d

Yes, let's teach ID in classrooms. And because it's all really about "equal time", we should also teach Evolution in Church. Oh, and let's not forget: Hindus have a different story of origins. We should teach that in Church and science classes as well. Are you okay with that? How about teaching the Satanic Bible "take" on things? Let's also go with that. I'm all for it. Let's inundate not only the classrooms but the Churches because, as we all know, what they really are aiming for is for everyone to have equal access.

Or...are you saying that some "theories" are better than others?

You...wouldn't be saying that now, would you?

840 LeftJustAintRight  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:52:54pm

re: #835 reine.de.tout

Indeed, it is! The best part is I'm able to do it without hubby knowing that he is the Roi de Rien (King of Nothing).

Don't be so sure he doesn't know

841 OldLineTexan  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:53:18pm

re: #821 ploome hineni

wish I has some sushi

Sushi's all right. I bought some once, took it home, and fried it up. Tasted like fish.

842 MajorPribluda  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:53:33pm

re: #756 MajorPribluda

Best bands for this thread:

Rush, Freewill

Rush, Natural Science

Rush, Anthem

Now with linkage!

843 rightymouse  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:53:44pm

re: #755 NoSpam

Because a lot of 'scientists' need to get the hell over themselves. As opposed to treating peole like idiots, perhaps if they taught their classes better and engaged in substantial debate they would realize that it's really not so hard for everybody to get along.

Scientists, specifically the 'second tier' ones (the also-rans) who don't have much in the way of personal accomplishments or contributions to society as a whole, like to belittle others to make up for their own percieved shortcomings.

Case in point: PZ Meyers *barf*

As a parent, I've had to closely monitor science books and homework my kids have brought home and the same goes for their 'social studies' and 'civic' classes.

You would not believe (or maybe you would) the utter crap and/or politically motivated stuff in books and materials our kids are bombarded with on a daily basis.

I have no problem with what we now refer to as "separation of Church and State", so long as we understand what our forefathers meant which my understanding is: no Church of America like there was a Church of England, etc. at the time. But that did not mean taking G-d out of public life, nor did it mean making a mockery of religion in our schools.

844 experiencedtraveller  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:53:48pm

Mozart, Beethoven and James Brown (performing with Pavarotti)

845 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:53:52pm
846 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:54:00pm

re: #828 WrathofG-d

You can assure me that Astrology will never be shown scientifically to be true? (i'd bet it won't but...)

What?

That's your standard for what should be taught as "alternate theories" in science classes?

So should we also teach dowsing, magic crystals, biorythms... all on the theory that "well, they can't be ABSOLUTELY disproven"?

847 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:54:09pm

re: #837 ploome hineni

I want to be Goddess Je ne sait qois

No, you are La déesse qui sait tout

848 theparson  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:54:11pm

re: #841 OldLineTexan

Here 'round Lake Ray Roberts we call it bait.

849 opnion  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:54:16pm

re: #841 OldLineTexan

Sushi's all right. I bought some once, took it home, and fried it up. Tasted like fish.


Now that's good!

850 JCM  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:54:33pm

re: #835 reine.de.tout

Indeed, it is! The best part is I'm able to do it without hubby knowing that he is the Roi de Rien (King of Nothing).

Sounds like your house is in good order, the KING is happy in his ignorance.

851 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:54:52pm

re: #836 Charles

Myself, I'm a Feces with Scrotum Rising.

(Did I really type that?)

I thought your sign was "atheist asshole" (same as mine)?

852 MajorPribluda  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:55:00pm

re: #791 zombie

Actually, yes. Sixpence None the Richer are pretty spectacular, and I believe they may have been creationists. (Seriously.)

I would expect Creed to be creationist, and I enjoy their stuff immensely. Heady, moral, solid rock.

853 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:55:07pm

re: #781 JHW

How about worshiping Victor Hugo as a saint?
Cao Dai

There's a really good vegetarian Cao Dai restaurant I got to often in Oakland! For real! Great food. Cult stuff all over the walls. Aside from this one place, it's hard to find vegetarian Vietnamese food around here because they always use fish broth in the Pho and fish sauce in the French Roll sandwiches.

I'm kind of a Cao Dai fan, for this one reason alone!

854 AZfederalist  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:55:18pm

... and yet, with all those favorable conditions they remain e coli bacteria. They didn't join cells and become multi-celled animals, they are still e coli. Certainly, they adapted to new conditions (no one that I know of denies micro-evolution or intra-species adapatation).

855 EC Marm  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:55:21pm

re: #833 Occasional Reader

Shit! How'd you know! (Wait, I'm a Leo)

I am continually amazed by how many putatively educated people believe "there's really something to astrology"... you know, "if it's done right".


If I had listened to the astrologers I would never have married my wife of 30 plus years. "It will never work!" they said. The same sign! Astrology and phrenology, same junk science.

856 Desert Dog  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:55:22pm
Sushi's all right. I bought some once, took it home, and fried it up. Tasted like fish.

I used mine for bait and caught some REAL fish!

857 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:55:23pm
858 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:55:50pm

re: #833 Occasional Reader

Shit! How'd you know! (Wait, I'm a Leo)

I am continually amazed by how many putatively educated people believe "there's really something to astrology"... you know, "if it's done right".

you mean . . . it's NOT real?

859 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:56:07pm

re: #761 zombie

Speaking of religion:

I actually discovered a new religion today, when I posted this authentic advertisement for "Confutopia" at the Mohammed Archive. The caption reads:

And no, it is not a joke. It's a real religion.

It has almost no Web presence in English, but I was sent the ad by someone who said they're starting to prosletyze on US college campuses.

You heard it here first!

Soon, we'll all be Confutopians!

allah does not co-exist willingly, infidel.

860 Pshawalaw  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:56:08pm

re: #520 Charles

Belief in Christianity does not equate to belief in "intelligent design" or creationism. (Which are really the same thing, but the former is dressed up in scientific-sounding BS.)

Now you're co-mingling the religious and the quasi-scientific. Creationism may be an element found within ID, but then so is observational research; that doesn't make ID the same as creationism any more than it makes the same as science. We are talking about three independent concepts. Linking the religious (creationism) to ID in that way only fuels the resistance to giving ID a critical review and, as you would have done, abd its rejection.

861 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:56:08pm

re: #839 Summer

First, Church is private, School is public. There are different rules for private institutions then there are for public. So that knocks those issues out.

But to answer your question...yes, I do believe that some "theories" are better than others. I would assume however that all share a belief in some "Intelligent designer". This designer doesn't have to be specified (ie Allah, or G-d, or whatever), but that concept that there IS a Designer is the point.

Personally, I'm not sure why evolution has to be taught at all. You can teach scientific theory without touching on either of the topics.

862 JCM  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:56:32pm

re: #854 AZfederalist

... and yet, with all those favorable conditions they remain e coli bacteria. They didn't join cells and become multi-celled animals, they are still e coli. Certainly, they adapted to new conditions (no one that I know of denies micro-evolution or intra-species adapatation).

“It’s the most profound change we have seen during the experiment. This was clearly something quite different for them, and it’s outside what was normally considered the bounds of E. coli as a species, which makes it especially interesting,” says Lenski.

863 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:56:39pm

re: #858 reine.de.tout

you mean . . . it's NOT real?

And I'm not quite sure how to break the news to you about professional wrestling...

864 paxnhymn  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:56:41pm

re: #829 zombie

And never forget that the largest, most influential Creationist movement in the world is the Muslim Harun Yahya group.

The last time I mentioned them here, some people went ballistic. But if you're an American creationist, tell me this: Would you want the Harun Yahya-ites teaching science to your children? Because that's exactly what gonna happen if creationism is let into the schools and CAIR sues for equal treatment.

Think about it.

You may have never heard of Harun Yahya before but they're very influential and they'd jump into our curriculum in a heartbeat given half a chance.

Thanks Zombie. Some people are also forgetting the evolution itself can be attributed to an intelligent designer. Just because science excludes the supernatural from the equation does not preclude others from doing such. and anyone who thinks this is taboo because it would taint science is practicing another religion called secular humanism...

865 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:57:01pm

re: #857 ploome hineni

I just think I do

/:P

what is this "La déesse"?

La deesse - I think, is Goddess.

866 Boogberg  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:57:22pm

re: #842 MajorPribluda

I like the live version of "Anthem" from All the World's a stage. :D

867 NoSpam  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:57:25pm

re: #808 Charles

Clearly, you are bashing those of us with eardrums.


It could be worse...Have you ever heard of Funker Vogt?

(And the strangest thing is, I *like* Funker Vogt in spite of being fully cognizent of how horrible it is.)

868 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:57:44pm

re: #863 Occasional Reader

And I'm not quite sure how to break the news to you about professional wrestling...

Naw - it too is fake? Damn...

869 goddessoftheclassroom  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:57:54pm

re: #857 ploome hineni

I just think I do

/:P

what is this "La déesse"?

The goddess

870 Summer  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:57:56pm

Seriously, I'm all for it!

Let's teach everything allowable in the classroom in Sunday school as well. If all they really care about is equal time, then let's test them. Let's teach sex ed in Church, let's teach Hinduism, let's make them explain the rational thought behind Atheism, demand that they teach Crystal Harmonics and Jainism too.

See how they take to that idea. Let's do it. I'm all for equal access now!

Oh and sex-ed includes teaching about the right for a woman to choose an abortion or not. Sorry boys, that's also something you'll just have to deal with from now on because, as everyone knows, creationists are really just about the "information". =)

Wow what a great idea creationists had! I'm suddenly thinking it's totally fab and all for it. Woot. Yay. o/

871 zombie  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:58:08pm

re: #787 HelloDare

Sure that's not Kung Futopians?

Now that's a cult I'd join!

The three Holy Saints are Bruce Lee, Carl Douglas, and Wong Fei Hung!

872 theparson  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:58:15pm

Wrath,
The question for me is, whose version of "creationism" will be taught in PS? What Bible version will be used? What spin will the teacher put on it? There are too many possibilities. I want to choose where my loved ones learn the Bible. And, if I am doing my job at home and at church, there is nothing that can be taught in school that negate their faith.

873 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:58:17pm
874 lawhawk  Wed, Jun 18, 2008 6:58:26pm