The electronic device was not designed for that purpose?

re: #1 astronmr20

The electronic device was not designed for that purpose?

It's still evolving.

Isn't one of the commandments, "Thou shall not brand children like cattle"

As a believer, it's crap like this that gives the rest a bad name.

He was just illustrating what intelligent design looks like, you think he wanted to sit there until the kid evolved a cross on his arm?

WWJFD?

JCM said it best for me yesterday. If he did this to my kid, he'd better hope the cops show up before I get there.

This teacher's actions clearly violate the Establishment Clause.

This is a PUBLIC school. Kids are required to go there. It's been ruled by the Supreme Court over and over that religious evangelism is not permitted in such a setting, particularly by an authority figure (i.e. a teacher) with power over the students' lives.

He's got to be fired. No question.

re: #5 astronmr20

As a believer, it's crap like this that gives the rest a bad name.

Yes - its sickening to think that someone who calls himself a Christian is prepared to inflict bodily harm on children which were entrusted to him.

"Mr. Freshwater did burn a cross onto the complaining family’s child’s arm using an electrostatic device not designed for that purpose."

This idiot is a closet Islamist. He is allowing the media and the left to draw a moral eqivalence between Islamists and Christianity.

Are these people born this stupid or do they have to work at it?

So many bibles around, but Freshwater doesn't seem to have read any of them past the book of Genisis.

There are more books in the bible, Mr. Freshwater. Then there's that whole Jesus thing:

0:13 And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and [his] disciples rebuked those that brought [them].

10:14 But when Jesus saw [it], he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

10:16 And he took them up in his arms, put [his] hands upon them, and blessed them.

/I must have missed the part about Christ branding kids.

re: #9 zombie

This teacher's actions clearly violate the Establishment Clause.

This is a PUBLIC school. Kids are required to go there. It's been ruled by the Supreme Court over and over that religious evangelism is not permitted in such a setting, particularly by an authority figure (i.e. a teacher) with power over the students' lives.

He's got to be fired. No question.

He also violated the, "Don't brand shit on the kids" clause.

This asshat needs to be locked up.

* The Ten Commandments together with other posters of a religious nature were posted in Mr. Freshwater’s classroom. Most were removed after Mr. White’s letter of April 14, 2008, but at least one poster remained which Mr. Freshwater was again instructed to remove on April 16, 2008, but did not do so.

Despite what some posters on other threads believe- this teacher did not in fact comply with the dictates of the school board.

* Mr. Freshwater engaged in teaching of a religious nature, teaching creationism and related theories and calling evolution into question. He had other materials in his classroom that could be used for that purpose.

Despite what some posters on other threads believe- this teacher was not a competent science teacher in that he flouted the scientific method, and harmed his students ability to fully understand and appreciate science.

re: #13 ccrnyc

This guy is whacko.

At least he didn't touch him inappropriately like the Catholic Priests do.

* Mr. Freshwater gave an extra credit assignment for students to view the movie “Expelled” which does involve intelligent design.

The poor children of America.

On one hand you have crypto-Marxist teachers showing them "An Inconvenient Truth," which is a pack of lies, and then they go into the next class and the teacher shows them "Expelled," which is an entirely different pack of lies.

I say: NO INDOCTRINATION IN THE CLASSROOM, whatever the teacher's political or religious orientation may be.

Our kids don't stand a chance in this environment.

re: #12 astronmr20

I think he also missed this:

"It were better for him, that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should scandalize one of these little ones."
--Luke 17:2

I wonder how long the idiot can hold his breath...

Teaching religion involves burning crosses into student's skin?
say it ain't true, world's going nuts

re: #18 ccrnyc

Burning is not inappropriate touching?

re: #9 zombie

This teacher's actions clearly violate the Establishment Clause.

This is a PUBLIC school. Kids are required to go there. It's been ruled by the Supreme Court over and over that religious evangelism is not permitted in such a setting, particularly by an authority figure (i.e. a teacher) with power over the students' lives.

He's got to be fired. No question.

Absolutely.

Shouldn't it be obvious that, as soon as any sort of religious proselytising is allowed in public schools, it will be impossible to restrict this to Christian beliefs only.

I wonder if any of the people who want ID taught in school would be happy to give an Imam equal time to talk in class about jihad?

re: #18 ccrnyc

Uncalled for IMHO.

I added a photo of the student's burned arm, also from the Mt Vernon News.

Stone Cold said, "And I just whooped your ass"
- Austin 3:16

This man should have had to remove the posters and other religious items. When they weren't removed he should been given his 5 minutes in front of the school board and then fired. I am not a friend of the ACLU but if this had not happened I would have made a call.

FCA = Fellowship of Christian Athletes.

re: #25 Charles

I added a photo of the student's burned arm, also from the Mt Vernon News.

They say the scar "won't be permanent," but injuries to the skin curing childhood -- even minor injuries -- can leave faint scars for life. I've got the proof on my own skin in several places.

re: #25 Charles

I added a photo of the student's burned arm, also from the Mt Vernon News.

If that's an "X", it's the most lop-sided one I've ever seen.

re: #23 yma o hyd

Absolutely.

Shouldn't it be obvious that, as soon as any sort of religious proselytising is allowed in public schools, it will be impossible to restrict this to Christian beliefs only.

I wonder if any of the people who want ID taught in school would be happy to give an Imam equal time to talk in class about jihad?

A point that has been raised here by others. Those who support teaching ID have not bothered to look at the unintended consequences.

re: #29 zombie

They say the scar "won't be permanent," but injuries to the skin curing childhood -- even minor injuries -- can leave faint scars for life. I've got the proof on my own skin in several places.

He can use it as a battle scar to pick up chicks.

re: #29 zombie

They say the scar "won't be permanent," but injuries to the skin curing childhood -- even minor injuries -- can leave faint scars for life. I've got the proof on my own skin in several places.

I hope the student's parents will collect damages for any corrective procedures he need to undergo.

re: #25 Charles

unbelievable, the guy needs to be locked up.
ps what's the difference between burning an X or cross into a student's skin?
would an X be ok with the board of ed?

Clearly this teacher went overboard and should be fired, but once any reference to God was taken out of the classrooms, its been a slippery slope.....can anyone say the students we're breeding are better that several generations ago?

Look around, pledge allegiance to the flag banned, teenage girls competing to see who gets pregnant 1st, classroom discipline in the toilet, plummeting graduation rates, students who can't even read or write and this is progress?

Yeah, lets focus on one crazy Christian teacher.....we all know Christians are the problem right?

re: #19 zombie

The poor children of America.

On one hand you have crypto-Marxist teachers showing them "An Inconvenient Truth," which is a pack of lies, and then they go into the next class and the teacher shows them "Expelled," which is an entirely different pack of lies.

I say: NO INDOCTRINATION IN THE CLASSROOM, whatever the teacher's political or religious orientation may be.

Our kids don't stand a chance in this environment.

Too right!
Its not as if the proper stuff which they need to learn isn't hard enough anyway.

What all those people do, who try to indoctrinate children, is this: they do not teach children how to think for themselves.

That, thinking for oneself, is the most important thing to be taught and learned.

re: #36 2by2

unbelievable, the guy needs to be locked up.
ps what's the difference between burning an X or cross into a student's skin?
would an X be ok with the board of ed?

if said x was was for malcom x, they are cool with it

re: #34 buzzsawmonkey

It is an X-teacher. It is fired. It is canned. It has ceased to be.

His calling it an "X" when it clearly isn't is proof that he knew what he was doing was wrong.

re: #18 ccrnyc

At least he didn't touch him inappropriately like the Catholic Priests do.

Now that was offensive, It was a few bad apples not ALL!

This is a seriously disturbed person.

This kind of guy, if not checked, will ruin the beneficial practice
of any wholesome religion for the rest of us.

He's a mole from the dark side.

At the link, lots of articles about people "rallying to the support" of this professor. What clueless idiots.

Even if you agree with this professor's religious beliefs and his views on "intelligent design," what he did is simply indefensible. He turned his classroom into Sunday school. Aren't there churches for that?

And burning a cross on a student's arm...good grief. Are these people "rallying to his support" cool with branding children?

* Mr. Freshwater gave an extra credit assignment for students to view the movie “Expelled” which does involve intelligent design.

This doesn't sound any worse than a history professor Assigning Michael Moore or Howard Zinn, which I know has been done.

re: #39 Shug

shouldn't teachers stay away from any branding devices?
sounds like he learned his trade from the Inquisition.

re: #43 buzzsawmonkey

They don't want to teach children to think for themselves; quite the contrary.

And they intentionally deny the children in their charge the tools to enable them to do so.

Quite right, if they teach the children how to think critically then the children may be able to deduce that *gasp* Obama and his ilk are full of sh*t!

/Can't have that now can we...

re: #44 Ojoe

This kind of guy, if not checked, will ruin the beneficial practice
of any wholesome religion for the rest of us.

He's a mole from the dark side.

WELL SAID!

re: #43 buzzsawmonkey

They don't want to teach children to think for themselves; quite the contrary.

And they intentionally deny the children in their charge the tools to enable them to do so.

Exactly- science being one of the fields where things like observation, etc. would harm the attempts to further indoctrinate the children.

FTA:

Twenty sheets of paper with lines for 48 signatures each were being signed by the students, some from the high school and some from the middle school. The petition read: “By signing this petition I am showing my support for Mr. John Freshwater and his stance for displaying his Bible. He had all rights to do so, and we stand by his side.

I wonder how many I.P Freeley's and Dick Hurtz's signed that petition.

re: #19 zombie

The poor children of America.

On one hand you have crypto-Marxist teachers showing them "An Inconvenient Truth," which is a pack of lies, and then they go into the next class and the teacher shows them "Expelled," which is an entirely different pack of lies.

I say: NO INDOCTRINATION IN THE CLASSROOM, whatever the teacher's political or religious orientation may be.

Our kids don't stand a chance in this environment.

That's why I keep posting my analogy:

"global warming" : liberals :: "creation science" : conservatives

religious indoctrination and ridiculous pseudoscience have no place in the classroom, and it discredits every person who defends the crap.

it also makes it damn hard to attack "global warming" on the basis of its obvious scientific deficits when so many on the right want to cling to their very own scientific illiteracy. grrr

re: #37 Maximu§

Clearly this teacher went overboard and should be fired, but once any reference to God was taken out of the classrooms, its been a slippery slope.....can anyone say the students we're breeding are better that several generations ago?

Look around, pledge allegiance to the flag banned, teenage girls competing to see who gets pregnant 1st, classroom discipline in the toilet, plummeting graduation rates, students who can't even read or write and this is progress?

Yeah, lets focus on one crazy Christian teacher.....we all know Christians are the problem right?

I don't think its about crazy Christian teachers as such.
After all, there are other crazy teachers, I'm sure.

Its about not having religious indoctrination of any kind in a public school.
I'd even go so far and say that if you allow Christian teachigns in a public school, then you must allow not just Islam, but other 'religions' into the classroom as well - Wicca, Hinduism, Shintoism, Budhdism ...
Nothing against religious teachings in proper settings - but not in a place where the children ahve no choice but to listen, and where whackos are given free hand.

All the other things you mention fall under proper discipline, not just of the pupils but of the parents as well.
Nothing to do with Christianity in schools.

how could anyone be left to teach science to 13 yr. old kids, if he thinks burning them is appropriate.
he should be removed. he sounds crazy.

Only extremists take limited ideas to an extreme. Science is a method of inquiry, not a religion. By definition it is limited to the physical universe, and to investigation of things that can be observed and measured. Science is not, and cannot be, metaphysical.

Religion, by contrast, is in the realm of metaphysics. Anyone who turns science into a religion is an extremist. It's a serious mistake for religious people to treat science as a contrary religious philosophy, accepting the false premises of the pseudo-scientific extremists. This teacher clearly fell into that trap. That's just sad.

I'm glad he was fired. Now I hope he will get locked in the pokey for a good, long time.

There is no excuse for this at all...no matter what the religion.

re: #52 funky chicken

While I agree with the spirit of your post (which, if I believe is "children should be educated, not indoctrinated") I would suggest a minor adjustment in your analogy:

"global warming" : liberals :: "creation science" : conservatives religious fundamentalists.

re: #46 Jimmy the Notable

This doesn't sound any worse than a history professor Assigning Michael Moore or Howard Zinn, which I know has been done.

It doesn't sound any better either. If one is against assigning Moore or Zinn they should be against this as well.

Wow, look at comments #18 and #19 in a row above. One has a "-6" rating and one has a "+9". A 15-point spread, in the space of one comment!

The lizards are opinionated today!

re: #5 astronmr20

As a believer, it's crap like this that gives the rest a bad name.

Believer in God or not, this guy clearly has some mental issues. I don't have a problem with someone having faith in the existance of God, a God they also believe to have created the Universe and life. I do have a problem with someone posing as a science teacher when all they have to disagree with the material is "faith".

Would you want a lawyer, accountant or police detective to use the same type of "logic" involved in the "science" of intelligent design? I think not. Thank goodness we do not allow such religious law into systems based solely upon reason and fact rather than a person's own unprovable beliefs. Some countries don't allow such nicities...see Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Iran and the like who have adopted Sharia Law. They too oppose teaching of evolution for purely religious reasons stemmed from strict literal interpretations of books alleged to be divine in nature. And unlike here in America, the term "flat Earther" isn't taken with the light-hearted humerous nature that we take it in.

re: #60 zombie

I'm opinionated every day.

still something that isn't being reported.

How could a student let somebody do that to them?

anybody tries to brand me and it's on.

by examining these burns this took some time. there are many contact points

re: #64 Shug

It's possible this child was afraid to tell his teacher (an authority figure) "no".

re: #63 buzzsawmonkey

Are people going to start betting on the LGF point spread now?

Whats the over/under, because if I knew I was being graded I would have mentioned a reach around.

re: #49 CIA Reject

Thank you.

re: #60 zombie

Wow, look at comments #18 and #19 in a row above. One has a "-6" rating and one has a "+9". A 15-point spread, in the space of one comment!

The lizards are opinionated today!

We're feeling our oats, er, I mean leafy lizard vegetables today!

re: #65 Sharmuta

yes that is one of the two scenarios I am going with

Brainwashing and severe intimidation on the part of this monster Freshwater

or

this young kid is on the same page as freshwater and was just fine with it until the marks showed up , his parents saw it, and he freaked and ratted out his teacher

I am going with option A

It's strange that the people of Mt Vernon (including former students) see this only as a problem with a Bible laying on his desk. No one in the discussion section of the newspaper seems to go beyond that point and no real mention of teaching religion.

Discussion

re: #64 Shug

still something that isn't being reported.

How could a student let somebody do that to them?

anybody tries to brand me and it's on.

by examining these burns this took some time. there are many contact points

That to me doesn't matter. There is 1 adult and however many kids.
Well, the 1 adult is open for debate, but even if the kid begged him to do it, He's supposed to be the one with judgement. He clearly doesn't have his head on straight.

re: #62 Sharmuta

I'm opinionated every day.

Nooooooooooooooo. Really? You don't say.

*rad*

re: #64 Shug

still something that isn't being reported.

How could a student let somebody do that to them?

anybody tries to brand me and it's on.

by examining these burns this took some time. there are many contact points

Sway of authority?

re: #57 CIA Reject

While I agree with the spirit of your post (which, if I believe is "children should be educated, not indoctrinated") I would suggest a minor adjustment in your analogy:

"global warming" : liberals :: "creation science" : conservatives religious fundamentalists.

If only that were true. I've seen way too many conservatives jump to defend folks who preach "intelligent design" even though they don't believe it themselves.

re: #60 zombie

Wow, look at comments #18 and #19 in a row above. One has a "-6" rating and one has a "+9". A 15-point spread, in the space of one comment!

The lizards are opinionated today!

20 points.

It's like the detroit lions vs anybody

re: #18 ccrnyc

They don't all

re: #64 Shug

still something that isn't being reported.

How could a student let somebody do that to them?

anybody tries to brand me and it's on.

by examining these burns this took some time. there are many contact points

Especially of one who sets himself up as a religious authority.

re: #59 Bloodnok

It doesn't sound any better either. If one is against assigning Moore or Zinn they should be against this as well.

Just to let you know, I'm against this as well. This guy sounds nuts. I'm just 99% certain that nobody's ever been fired for showing a Michael Moore film, and that that kind of indoctrination is much more widespread so it deserves more coverage than a few bad eggs teaching creationism. Liberalism is far more dangerous than creationism anyway.

re: #64 Shug

still something that isn't being reported.

How could a student let somebody do that to them?

anybody tries to brand me and it's on.

by examining these burns this took some time. there are many contact points

these kids are 13 yrs, old,
i don't think they are in a position to have 'consented' in any legal way.
perhaps he was given extra credit or promise of a good grade.
it doesn;t seem appropriate to consider the kid had culpability in this.
altho it would be interesting to know what he was thinking.

re: #67 Ojoe

Thank you.

You're most welcome - your comment crystallized my thoughts exactly. Most people do not realize the scope of what is being played out here and are far too willing to write people like this teacher off as cranks rather than consider the possibility that the stakes are much higher.

What a huge non-story about one nutcase.

re: #69 Shug

The one time I ever told a teacher, "No- I'm not going to do that" was in (ironically enough) my sophomore biology class. I didn't want to dissect a fetal pig. He snapped at me, "Fine- you can do all the written work for this project!"

I thought about it for a moment, joined my study group of three of my classmates with the fetal pig, and looked at all of them. None of them wanted to touch the pig either. So- I took charge, did most of the dissecting and got an A.

Gee, I bet if anyone bothered to follow the historical breadcrumb trail to full-blown Fundie Wack-Job that brands students, it wouldn't be very difficult. It isn't as if this asshat hadn't been walking fence for quite some time with his prior shenanigans. And now everyone feigns surprise?

I'm sure he can find another teaching job at one of the many Fine Fundie Schools that proudly fight the good fight across the US. He's experienced, dedicated, and batshit nuts. They seem to love those types serving up the Fundie Kool-Aid.

re: #72 MandyManners

I know. SHOCKA! lol

Objectivity is overridden when mythology is included in the scientific method. There is morality that divides true right from wrong but morality exists in the context of humankind. Evil is defined by anything we measure outside that point of view. If there is intelligent design we could never teach this because we don't actually have an proof of what that actually is. Human kind's primary weapon against the indifference of the universe is reason and fact. It humankind's only real survival tool. Mixing Science and religion is a huge mistake. Religion should be a personal tool and belief. We are being asked to prove a negative in that we are being asked that the absence of evidence is evidence of the possible. This man has no right to force is believes into a science class. He should teach a religious class instead. That is more suited to his ambitions.

Suspended: Astrology under fire

re: #62 Sharmuta

I'm opinionated every day.

Good for you!
:-))

Ah, I see I got dinged down....how nice.

You see its all about Balance, I sure don't want to see any teachers like this teaching children and I sure don't want to see our schools become Christian Madrassas, but the pendulum has swung too far away from God and we're seeing the results

Just go to your local Mall and look at the current flock we have produced. With few exceptions, the most selfish, hateful, angry, drugged out, sexed-up and stupid generation this country has ever seen.

If this story did not involve Christianity.....would it have gotton so much attention? If a liberal teacher branded this poor student with a different symbol, would this story have international legs? No, I'm betting it would not.

One stupid crackpot is used as a club to attack the whole faith. Go ahead and ding me down.....its a badge of Honor.

re: #83 theheat

Hyperbolic much?

re: #82 Sharmuta

I should add- my point being that I never thought to tell a teacher "no". This kid might have felt he had no choice but to accept his teacher's dictates in the classroom. If he was raised to respect authority, he most certainly would not have thought to tell the authority in that room "no".

Tag teaming seems to be kind of obvious.

re: #74 funky chicken

If only that were true. I've seen way too many conservatives jump to defend folks who preach "intelligent design" even though they don't believe it themselves.

Just out of curiosity: The "conservatives" you've seen do this- are they by any chance of the Buchanan / McLaughlin / Dornan variety (ie lunatics)?

re: #88 Maximu§

If this story did not involve Christianity.....would it have gotton so much attention?

Yes. Imagine if he was Muslim. Try Mormon or Scientologist.

This "teacher" is clearly out of bounds in his actions and should be fired, but there is also a fundamental problem with many science teachers not understanding the basic principles of science. Here's an article from TCU Magazine (as in Texas Christian University) showing the results of Assistant Professor Mark Bloom's research and survey of middle school and high school science teachers.
http://www.magazine.tcu.edu/articles/2008-02-AC1.a sp

If the teacher's don't understand, how can we expect the students to get it?

re: #93 Killgore Trout

Yes. Imagine if he was Muslim. Try Mormon or Scientologist.

Muslim : INTOLERANCE ! This is their culture

Mormon : CULTISTS ! Jail him !

Scientologist : Instead of a cross, there would have been a dollar sign burned into the kid.
And his parents would have been so proud. Nobody would have found out

If he wants to teach religion. I'm sure there's a church somewhere that will let him teach a Sunday school class. He can invite the kids to his church and teach it to them there. Some weak minds easily confuse evangelizing with indoctrination. I don't want anyone forcing religion on my children! As a Christian, I am not wanting my children getting a religious education from a public school. It's my responsibility as a father, and the head of my household to teach this to my children. If a teacher wants to usurp my household, he's going to have to fight me for it, and I can fight.

re: #93 Killgore Trout

Or astrologist. Well worth the view.

re: #94 huckfunn

If the teacher's don't understand, how can we expect the students to get it?

Maybe teaching "intelligent design" will help.

_cough

This is not funny.

This must rank up there with the child abuse perpetuated by the Islamic fundamentalists that they call female circumcision (the rest of us call it female genital mutilation).

But the attitudes are different, in Christian nations we see this behavior as aberrant and destructive. In Islamic societies abuses like FGM and are defended as essential to the culture and religion.

Let us pray that this fool is fired by the school board, arrested by the police and sued by child's parents.

re: #86 Killgore Trout

Suspended: Astrology under fire

I like the chick who is a water sign. Bong water.

re: #86 Killgore Trout

Suspended: Astrology under fire

I LOVE THAT! A Dr. that spews, "old thinking is that you need empirical evidence"! That's effing beautiful! he must have a doctorate in philosophy and be a big DeCarte fan!..

too rich!

re: #93 Killgore Trout

Yes. Imagine if he was Muslim. Try Mormon or Scientologist.

Please, if he was a Muslim teacher....it would be buried. Charles proved the abuse that was going on (I think in Virginia) at a Muslim school and that story never got far.

Please don't think I'm protecting this POS, by all means.

re: #94 huckfunn

This "teacher" is clearly out of bounds in his actions and should be fired, but there is also a fundamental problem with many science teachers not understanding the basic principles of science. Here's an article from TCU Magazine (as in Texas Christian University) showing the results of Assistant Professor Mark Bloom's research and survey of middle school and high school science teachers.
http://www.magazine.tcu.edu/articles/200 8-02-AC1.asp

If the teacher's don't understand, how can we expect the students to get it?

This is not about a stupid teacher. It's about an arrogant teacher who sought to force his views upon kids entrusted to his care.

re: #93 Killgore Trout

OT: for you. ;)

re: #100 Racer X

I like the chick who is a water sign. Bong water.

Pro-gravity establishment. Rotating title.

re: #37 Maximu§

Clearly this teacher went overboard and should be fired, but once any reference to God was taken out of the classrooms, its been a slippery slope.....can anyone say the students we're breeding are better that several generations ago?

Look around, pledge allegiance to the flag banned, teenage girls competing to see who gets pregnant 1st, classroom discipline in the toilet, plummeting graduation rates, students who can't even read or write and this is progress?

Yeah, lets focus on one crazy Christian teacher.....we all know Christians are the problem right?

Public schools are not mediums for religion, PERIOD. This includes references to supernatural deities (READ: Jesus; Allah). I agree with other more conservative posters that political evangelism should be kept the heck out of classrooms (READ: global warming, leftist rants, etc.) as well.

Christians are not the enemy. Christians who burn crosses into a child's arm; who teach theology/ID in lieu of established science, are.

re: #106 buzzsawmonkey

re: #88 Maximu§

Just how would you propose "putting G-d back in the schools?"

Start with the Pledge Allegiance to our Flag every morning?

Bottom line? There is a separation of Church and State. He violated it egregiously.

Conclusion? He must not be allowed to teach in a public school anywhere in the USA. Fire him ASAP.

What he did to the student's arm? Jail term, be it a cross, star of David or crescent.

Bible on his desk? So far OTT......

re: #107 eclectic infidel

Public schools are not mediums for religion, PERIOD. This includes references to supernatural deities (READ: Jesus; Allah). I agree with other more conservative posters that political evangelism should be kept the heck out of classrooms (READ: global warming, leftist rants, etc.) as well.

Christians are not the enemy. Christians who burn crosses into a child's arm; who teach theology/ID in lieu of established science, are.

Like I told Killgore, please don't think I'm defending the actions of this A**hole.

re: #88 Maximu§

Just go to your local Mall and look at the current flock we have produced. With few exceptions, the most selfish, hateful, angry, drugged out, sexed-up and stupid generation this country has ever seen.

Hasn't this been a complaint about teens ever since history began?

re: #76 Ojoe

They don't all

That's an understatement, Ojoe.
IIRC, the %age of Catholic priests accused of molesting minors is about half the %age of public school teachers so accused over the same time period....and is actually lower than the same figures for Protestant clergy.
But even if my memory or the source of that data is flawed, the accused (not guilty) represent a tiny fraction of the priesthood.

I have no objections to teaching Science in a Church, in fact it may be helpful. At best it will be pseudo science but is still better than no science at all. I don't support the inverse. Impartiality and removal of presumptions are key states of mind that is imperative to scientific discovery.

re: #111 MandyManners

Hasn't this been a complaint about teens ever since history began?

Its never been this bad....can we agree on that?

re: #108 Maximu§

Start with the Pledge Allegiance to our Flag every morning?

The public schools around here do that. Kids aren't required to say it, though if there is a religious objection.

re: #104 NY Nana

SYLVESTER STALLONE, the star of the Rocky and Rambo films, is to become the first well-known Hollywood actor to star in a Bollywood movie.

Stallone’s fellow action hero Arnold Schwarzenegger, now governor of California, will also feature in the production.

Awesome! I smell a hit!

re: #109 NY Nana

Bottom line? There is a separation of Church and State. He violated it egregiously.

Conclusion? He must not be allowed to teach in a public school anywhere in the USA. Fire him ASAP.

What he did to the student's arm? Jail term, be it a cross, star of David or crescent.

Bible on his desk? So far OTT......

What about a cross/Star of David/crecent necklace?

re: #114 Maximu§

Its never been this bad....can we agree on that?

I don't know. I didn't hang out with Plato.

re: #111 MandyManners

Hasn't this been a complaint about teens ever since history began?

Only up to a point.
Its very regrettable, but a huge number of parents at the present time seem to have abandoned all responsibility for the upbringing of their children.
Thats why we see the destructive behaviour of these children and teens. Its unfortunately of quite a different quality than that of 'normal' teenagers, about whom the older generation has indeed complained since the first generation of teenagers ...

"Mr. Freshwater engaged in teaching of a religious nature, teaching creationism and related theories and calling evolution into question." Quick! Someone call the science Gestapo!

re: #114 Maximu§

Its never been this bad....can we agree on that?

I'm sorry. That was a smart-assed quip.

Perhaps we think it's this bad 'cause we pay attention to the aberrant. Aren't the vast majority of teens decent kids?

re: #118 MandyManners

What about a cross/Star of David/crecent necklace?

This dude gives ample justification for the reinstatement of public lashings in the town square.

At least public lashings are not as uncivilized as hand amputations and public stonings that the adherents of Islam find so entertaining.

re: #115 buzzsawmonkey

I don't consider that "putting G-d into," let alone "back into" the schools. The Pledge should be recited as part of the process of making the children understand that they are Americans, and what America is about.

I have no particular problem with the Pledge in its original form, which did not have "under G-d" in it, either. That phrase was inserted in the 1950s; somehow, the generation which won WWII managed to do so having grown up reciting the Pledge in its original form, without that phrase.

Just because it was inserted in "the 50s'" doesn't make it wrong Buzz, but I don't want to sidetrack the thread. My point is, take away ALL reference to God in the teaching of children and they have no "rudder" to steer them through life's many icebergs.

I'm saying the pendulum has swung too far over....its all about Balance.

re: #117 Killgore Trout

Awesome! I smell a hit!

I smell something, but can't quite figure it out! ;)

There are also videos, BTW.

Truthfully, I am not all that enamored with Stallone or the Terminator.

re: #118 MandyManners

I think it's important to be discreet about this stuff in public schools. There was a case recently about the Gideons handing out bibles in a school. Christian students started harassing Jewish students with the bibles (forcing them to touch it, etc). This stuff can cause a lot of problems.

I know quite a few posters want to obfuscate the issue by mentioning the indoctrination going on in the public schools on other issues and in other subjects. I doubt they'll find many Lizards who disagree with them on that point, and we could all certainly discuss the merits of school vouchers as a remedy to the problem.

However- that is not what these threads have been discussing. This is about one particular subject (science) coming under attack. Simply because the education system as a whole has a plethora of issues doesn't mean we can't focus in on one of them.

In this case, science, is being up ended to include religious indoctrination. In what other subject is the nature of the field being turned on it's head and being converted into religious evangelizing? Are they forcing kids in Spanish class to become Catholics? Are Humanities classes trying to convert kids into polytheism like the Greeks?

re: #103 MandyManners

This is not about a stupid teacher. It's about an arrogant teacher who sought to force his views upon kids entrusted to his care.

I agree, but he also taught science the way many science teachers in this country do; he did it to a much more extreme degree albeit, but with much misunderstanding about what science is all about. I don't quite understand the point you were making. Were you saying that I was off topic?

re: #120 yma o hyd

Only up to a point.
Its very regrettable, but a huge number of parents at the present time seem to have abandoned all responsibility for the upbringing of their children.
Thats why we see the destructive behaviour of these children and teens. Its unfortunately of quite a different quality than that of 'normal' teenagers, about whom the older generation has indeed complained since the first generation of teenagers ...

Maybe it's because I live in a pretty conservative area but, kids don't seem much worse than they did when I was growing up. Well, with the exception of out-of-wedlock pregnancies.

re: #111 MandyManners

re: #114 Maximu§

I agree that it has been a problem since time in memorial (gotta find that Socrates quote on the subject), but IMHO the difference is in the past the institutions of society (family, community, schools, etc) were working to COMBAT the problem. These days with schools teaching "self esteem" and allowing (and sometimes abetting) everything from lousy spelling to teenage pregnancy it seems that today's institutions are FOSTERING the problem!

re: #119 MandyManners

I don't know. I didn't hang out with Plato.

Mandy -- You really have some clever one-liners.

re: #121 lightmourn

"Mr. Freshwater engaged in teaching of a religious nature, teaching creationism and related theories and calling evolution into question." Quick! Someone call the science Gestapo!

Mr Freshwater burned a cross/x into his student's arm, I guess calling the cops is more appropriate.

re: #28 KingKenrod

FCA = Fellowship of Christian Athletes.

The FCA is allowed in many public schools so long as it is led by students, not adults, is completely voluntary, meetings do not conflict with schoolwork and participation or non-participation in no way affects any other part of a student's life.

re: #112 wolfie

I believe you are correct.

'Tis more than usually bad though, as priests have more than the usual reason to behave; their actions affect others more than the actions of regular people.

Signed, Ojoe the (bad) Catholic.

(don't attend much).

re: #121 lightmourn

"Mr. Freshwater engaged in teaching of a religious nature, teaching creationism and related theories and calling evolution into question." Quick! Someone call the science Gestapo!

I have no problem with questioning evolution 'cause that's what science is all about. However, offering up a religious alternate is NOT acceptable in a public school.

re: #99 shanec99

No, it does NOT "rank up there" with FGM.

The teacher should be fired.
IMO he should have been fired long before this.

But your statement is off-base.

re: #124 shanec99

This dude gives ample justification for the reinstatement of public lashings in the town square.

At least public lashings are not as uncivilized as hand amputations and public stonings that the adherents of Islam find so entertaining.

You got a point there.

re: #88 Maximu§

The place to teach religion is at home and/or church. If you teach religion in public school then it should be in a comparative religion class where other religions are taught as well. Problem being which ones get taught, how they are taught and by whom. Kali? Aztec? Mayan? Satanism? Any of the kill the unbeliever ones?

I went thru the mandatory prayer in public school. Sucked big time if you did not hold the local religious beliefs or prayed as they wanted.

re: #125 Maximu§

Just because it was inserted in "the 50s'" doesn't make it wrong Buzz, but I don't want to sidetrack the thread. My point is, take away ALL reference to God in the teaching of children and they have no "rudder" to steer them through life's many icebergs.

I'm saying the pendulum has swung too far over....its all about Balance.

Aren't parents the rudders?

re: #131 CIA Reject

re: #114 Maximu§

I agree that it has been a problem since time in memorial (gotta find that Socrates quote on the subject), but IMHO the difference is in the past the institutions of society (family, community, schools, etc) were working to COMBAT the problem. These days with schools teaching "self esteem" and allowing (and sometimes abetting) everything from lousy spelling to teenage pregnancy it seems that today's institutions are FOSTERING the problem!

Oh and the pregnancy pact up in Glouster, MA. Those 17 girls under 16 that made the pact to get pregnant all together.

Way to go Mass. You are teaching those kids real good.

Do we have all the facts in this case? That mark is SO large, how could it have happened without a lot more circumstances surrounding it? Done in the middle of class with needle point? I think we need more info.

Also, just what is teaching of a "religious nature?" That's so ambiguous I don't even know where to begin with it. Was he teaching theology? Or was it just ID, and it's a classic labeling exercise by those who disagree with those positions?

The fact of the matter is, our society is going from one of church AND state working together but not controlling one another, to church OR state, each operating in totally different realms and having nothing to do with each other.

To enforce absolute secularism is unconstitutional, even in the sciences.

re: #127 Killgore Trout

I think it's important to be discreet about this stuff in public schools. There was a case recently about the Gideons handing out bibles in a school. Christian students started harassing Jewish students with the bibles (forcing them to touch it, etc). This stuff can cause a lot of problems.

Little creeps.

re: #143 infinity8ball

Teaching ID is theology.

re: #37 Maximu§

Clearly this teacher went overboard and should be fired, but once any reference to God was taken out of the classrooms, its been a slippery slope.....can anyone say the students we're breeding are better that several generations ago?

Look around, pledge allegiance to the flag banned, teenage girls competing to see who gets pregnant 1st, classroom discipline in the toilet, plummeting graduation rates, students who can't even read or write and this is progress?

Yeah, lets focus on one crazy Christian teacher.....we all know Christians are the problem right?

There are these things called "parents." There are these buildings called "churches." There are these people called "ministers."

There are also courses in comparative religion, ethics, civics, philosophy. One can discuss moral issues in school.

Teachers can exemplify and even promote moral values without making explicit references to God. There are multitudes of ways it can be gotten across to kids that following the Golden Rule, working hard, respecting private property, not killing or harming others except in self-defense, respecting the rights and freedoms of others, waiting to have sex and children, and so on are in their own short-and-long term self interest as well as in the interests of society, without resorting to promoting any particular religion.

I think the Christian Right made a mistake several decades ago when it basically insisted you cannot separate morality from orthodox Christianity. I'm not saying that's the sole or even the primary cause for the current mess, but I think it was a lost opportunity for recognizing that people can, in fact, be moral and even embrace certain Judeo-Christian values without being Jewish or Christian. I think Americans always recognized that on a mostly subconscious level, but the "counter-culture" movement, by basically rejecting ALL traditional morality, helped establish a false dichotomy...morality is "Establishment," morality is "traditional religion," morality is Christianity, or Judeo-Christianity. Had more Christians responded with, "no, morality is just good sense, whether you're religious or not" instead of becoming defensive and claiming morality as an exclusively Judeo-Christian or religious trait, it might not be so fashionable to mock morality today.

re: #140 FamHistoryGuy

The place to teach religion is at home and/or church. .

bingo.

I do think there is a place for it in the public education. Teach a class on all religions. The philosophy. THe history.

It makes a well-rounded person to know as much about everything as is possible and in the world of today it's helpful to at least understand religions.

but to teach it from any other POV in a public school : absolutely not. whether that is in science or in any other way.

re: #128 Sharmuta

However- that is not what these threads have been discussing. This is about one particular subject (science) coming under attack. Simply because the education system as a whole has a plethora of issues doesn't mean we can't focus in on one of them.

Science has allowed the earth's population to exceed 7 billion. It's the only reason. It was not faith or hope that did this. Everyday of our very lives is owed to science.

re: #128 Sharmuta

I know quite a few posters want to obfuscate the issue by mentioning the indoctrination going on in the public schools on other issues and in other subjects. I doubt they'll find many Lizards who disagree with them on that point, and we could all certainly discuss the merits of school vouchers as a remedy to the problem.

However- that is not what these threads have been discussing. This is about one particular subject (science) coming under attack. Simply because the education system as a whole has a plethora of issues doesn't mean we can't focus in on one of them.

In this case, science, is being up ended to include religious indoctrination. In what other subject is the nature of the field being turned on it's head and being converted into religious evangelizing? Are they forcing kids in Spanish class to become Catholics? Are Humanities classes trying to convert kids into polytheism like the Greeks?

I agree to a point. However, Gramscian Whoredom is the CHIEF problem facing our civilization, and it is inundating our public institutions.

re: #130 MandyManners

Maybe it's because I live in a pretty conservative area but, kids don't seem much worse than they did when I was growing up. Well, with the exception of out-of-wedlock pregnancies.

Could well be.
Its very bad here in the cities and larger towns.
Children get drunk regularly - yes, children, as young as 13 and 14. They vandalise public spaces, and worst, they fight bloody gang wars.
In London there have been 27 teenagers killed in this year alone. Preferred weapon: knives.
And don't get me started on teenage pregnancies ...

re: #137 wolfie

No, it does NOT "rank up there" with FGM.

The teacher should be fired.
IMO he should have been fired long before this.

But your statement is off-base.

In my mind it does. FGM is child abuse, and an assault on the most vulnerable.

How does this not meet the criteria of child abuse and assault?

If you demonstrate to me how this does not then I will say it does not rank right up there with FGM.

re: #131 CIA Reject

re: #114 Maximu§

I agree that it has been a problem since time in memorial (gotta find that Socrates quote on the subject), but IMHO the difference is in the past the institutions of society (family, community, schools, etc) were working to COMBAT the problem. These days with schools teaching "self esteem" and allowing (and sometimes abetting) everything from lousy spelling to teenage pregnancy it seems that today's institutions are FOSTERING the problem!

Gramscian Whores!

(It was Socretes? I tend to get my dead white Greeks confused when typing rapidly.)

Its Global warming.... due to which Freshwater burned childerns hand.... ;)

re: #131 CIA Reject

Yep. Same in this country, where its perhaps a bit more obvious because its much smaller in size than the USA>

re: #123 MandyManners

I'm sorry. That was a smart-assed quip.

Perhaps we think it's this bad 'cause we pay attention to the aberrant. Aren't the vast majority of teens decent kids?

Yeah, but alot of them have no Faith anymore and their dancing around the Golden-Calf. I'm all about balance....not too much Christianity, but don't take it all away ether. The ACLU, with their lawsuits have stripped ALL reference to God away from our schools.

re: #118 MandyManners

What about a cross/Star of David/crecent necklace?

/Not a big market for it in the arab countries, I have a feeling.

Funny. My Bubbe zt"l gave me a beautiful star of David and necklace when I was 8 years old, and I wore it to school, in Boston, which was an anti-Semitic city, and still wear it. In Mexico, Canada, France and the UK, I never was called names, ever.

I am going to give it to my oldest granddaughter, as she is now 8.

re: #129 huckfunn

I agree, but he also taught science the way many science teachers in this country do; he did it to a much more extreme degree albeit, but with much misunderstanding about what science is all about. I don't quite understand the point you were making. Were you saying that I was off topic?

Oh, no! Not at all!

I was just pointing out that this teacher is an arrogant schmuck who sought to shove his version of science down those kids' throats. I think that is worse than stupidity 'cause stupidity can be corrected.

re: #81 Writhing Funzos

What a huge non-story about one nutcase.

I couldn't agree more.

Freshwater obviously needs to be put out to pasture. End of story.

Other than demonstrating most conservatives aren't extremists, I'm lost on the relevance of the post. I'm sure it has something to do with my thin skin and much more to do with my even thicker skull but there is just something very creepy about lizards and kos kidz being on the same page....about anything.

re: #111 MandyManners

Hasn't this been a complaint about teens ever since history began?

Actually, no.....although the follies of youth have always been noted and the wisdom of elders acknowledged.
The charge that a younger generation is more immoral than the older one was in its own youth is not a constant theme in history. It does recur from time to time.........particularly when there is at least some substance to it.

re: #121 lightmourn

"Mr. Freshwater engaged in teaching of a religious nature, teaching creationism and related theories and calling evolution into question." Quick! Someone call the science Gestapo!

You shouldn't throw terms like that around so casually. It often has the boomerang effect, telling us more about you than the opposition.
Just food for thought.

re: #143 infinity8ball

To enforce absolute secularism is unconstitutional, even in the sciences.

Where in the Constitution is science mentioned? No where.

However, the First Amendment clearly states that the government cannot endorse religion.

re: #146 Tigger2005

Your point is well taken, please don't confuse me with a religious nut.

re: #158 Phil N Blanx

I couldn't agree more.

Freshwater obviously needs to be put out to pasture. End of story.

Other than demonstrating most conservatives aren't extremists, I'm lost on the relevance of the post. I'm sure it has something to do with my thin skin and much more to do with my even thicker skull but there is just something very creepy about lizards and kos kidz being on the same page....about anything.

Not put out to pasture... put in jail. The dude assaulted a child. I hope he is put in jail and made some big dude's "girlfriend", where he can find out what it is like to be powerless and violated.

All things are accomplished via two methods. Discovery of truth and fact, and balls and fortitude to take action using this new information. Without truth and action nothing will ever happen. Where does the fortitude come from give one the will to take on the opposition to effect this change?

Intelligent Design is a compromise or appeasement of one's own religious principles based on indisputable to placate the overwhelming deluge of Science data on the state of our universe. This is a submission and a weak point that if embraced will destroy will weaken the core of Religion and water it down. This allows a more aggressive form to take it's place (ie Islam).

He should be fired, jailed, and possibly crucified. As I understand it, the book on his desk was also in the school library! What an outrage! If we are serious about this, we should demand that these superstitious doctrinal pamphlets be removed from all schools with federal funding. Especially the King James red letter edition. Those are particularly nefarious. And don't get me started about Buddhism, Judaism, or philosophy!

re: #150 yma o hyd

Could well be.
Its very bad here in the cities and larger towns.
Children get drunk regularly - yes, children, as young as 13 and 14. They vandalise public spaces, and worst, they fight bloody gang wars.
In London there have been 27 teenagers killed in this year alone. Preferred weapon: knives.
And don't get me started on teenage pregnancies ...

Oh, goodness gracious me! Where are they getting the booze?!

re: #151 shanec99

In my mind it does. FGM is child abuse, and an assault on the most vulnerable.

How does this not meet the criteria of child abuse and assault?

If you demonstrate to me how this does not then I will say it does not rank right up there with FGM.

Branding a child's arm is not the same as cutting out her clitoris.

re: #149 MandyManners

I agree to a point. However, Gramscian Whoredom is the CHIEF problem facing our civilization, and it is inundating our public institutions.

Well, Sweetie- that was part of my point. In this case, we're discussing science in particular. That not teaching children the scientific method, to have them appreciate logic, reason, and observation is directly contributing to the problem. Perhaps the indoctrinators fear that if children applied any of the above mentioned tools, they would see through the BS of the kool-aid.

re: #155 Maximu§

Yeah, but alot of them have no Faith anymore and their dancing around the Golden-Calf. I'm all about balance....not too much Christianity, but don't take it all away ether. The ACLU, with their lawsuits have stripped ALL reference to God away from our schools.

Again, faith it is NOT the school's responsibility. That lies with the parents and the parents alone.

What bothers me about this is how long it took to deal with this creep after his craziness came to light. According to this article, complaints about Freshwater's evangelizing go back several years, to at least 2003, and the cross-burning incident occurred last December.

This is an example of a problem that exists in virtually every school district in the country. Public school teachers are not supposed to have tenure, but it is notoriously difficult to get rid of a bad teacher once a contract is signed. An administrator here in Lubbock told me that it costs an average of $100,000 to fire a teacher before contract expiration, simply because various professional groups and unions pursue a policy of fighting every termination regardless of circumstances. These organizations have very deep legal pockets and they don't mind spending the money in a hopeless cause if they can intimidate school boards and deter further action against their members.

In 1985, for instance, a Lubbock fifth grade teacher was on paid administrative leave for 3 months before he was finally terminated by a simple non-renewal of his contract. What was he doing during those three months? He was in jail and on trial for murdering his wife, cutting off her head and hands and burying them in the backyard, and dumping the rest of the remains along a rural road.

He was convicted.

re: #127 Killgore Trout

This just does not belong in public schools. Period.

If people choose to send their kids to a religious school, it is thankfully a right in the USA, and thus the seperation of Church and State is applied.

My 4 kids got an excellent education here, in the public school system, and went to Hebrew School after public school, 2 days a week, and on Sunday.

That worked for them and for us very nicely. I was class mother for years, and also a member of the PTA in both public and Hebrew school, and a board member in Hebrew school, and also President.

I miss it!

re: #135 Ojoe

I agree 100%.

Oh. Did you have a tasty lunch today?
I had a grilled cheese sandwich and two whole dill pickles.
(Please don't tell any other country about the 2nd pickle.)

re: #111 MandyManners

Hasn't this been a complaint about teens ever since history began?

“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers." - Socrates

Meanwhile...
As a teacher, I have to say this schmuck's conduct simply has no excuse. Not only did he abrogate his responsibilities as an educator, he actually, and deliberately, burned the flesh of a child in such a manner that it left a lasting mark.

I teach English Language Arts, and I make it a point to give my students the tools they'll require to become active consumers of information and full citizens, rather than passive media receptacles and followers. I make it a point of pedagogy (and morality) not to share my political/religious/philosophical beliefs with my students any more than absolutely necessary. They don't need to know whether or not I think universal health care is a good policy or a bad one. They need to know how to do the research, how to spot logical fallacies, and how best to express their values, vision, and how best to persuade others. (You also don't sear their flesh)

The point is to give students the tools they will need to make their own minds up, to teach them how to think and not what to think. This idiot got it exactly backwards, and deserves to lose his job.

re: #37 Maximu§

Clearly this teacher went overboard and should be fired, but once any reference to God was taken out of the classrooms, its been a slippery slope

No. Actually, what you're trying to do is use a series of logical fallacies. Specifically, and ironically,

re: #156 NY Nana

/Not a big market for it in the arab countries, I have a feeling.

Funny. My Bubbe zt"l gave me a beautiful star of David and necklace when I was 8 years old, and I wore it to school, in Boston, which was an anti-Semitic city, and still wear it. In Mexico, Canada, France and the UK, I never was called names, ever.

I am going to give it to my oldest granddaughter, as she is now 8.

What a grandmomma! I know she'll cherish it and pass it down to her grand daughter.

re: #169 MandyManners

Again, faith it is NOT the school's responsibility. That lies with the parents and the parents alone.

Perfect!

re: #172 wolfie

I had that in breakfast :) .... in lunch was schnitzel ....

re: #158 Phil N Blanx

In essence, you've told Charles that his kids are ugly and that his furniture sucks.

re: #127 Killgore Trout

I think it's important to be discreet about this stuff in public schools. There was a case recently about the Gideons handing out bibles in a school. Christian students started harassing Jewish students with the bibles (forcing them to touch it, etc). This stuff can cause a lot of problems.

Sure, I agree on strict limitations on religious teaching in public schools. But even a partial list of things that kids harass each over:

clothes, socks, shoes, hair, glasses, teeth, body odor, skin color, speaking ability, the way they walk, what you bring for lunch, religion, height, weight, etc. etc. etc.

Public schools are the epicenter of harassment. I endured the abuse and probably was criticized, teased, or harassed at one time or another for at least half, if not more, of the items I listed above. Some of the teasing is good natured, done in a light-hearted way, as a way for kids to burn energy and 'kill the clock'. Some is not.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Subtle, no?

re: #159 wolfie

Actually, no.....although the follies of youth have always been noted and the wisdom of elders acknowledged.
The charge that a younger generation is more immoral than the older one was in its own youth is not a constant theme in history. It does recur from time to time.........particularly when there is at least some substance to it.

Maybe we're hearing about it more because we are plugged in more than previous generations.

re: #165 swamprat

He should be fired, jailed, and possibly crucified. As I understand it, the book on his desk was also in the school library! What an outrage! If we are serious about this, we should demand that these superstitious doctrinal pamphlets be removed from all schools with federal funding. Especially the King James red letter edition. Those are particularly nefarious. And don't get me started about Buddhism, Judaism, or philosophy!

I'm tongue-tied. All I can say is WTF?

re: #164 Egfrow

I think it weakens science more than religion.

re: #168 Sharmuta

Well, Sweetie- that was part of my point. In this case, we're discussing science in particular. That not teaching children the scientific method, to have them appreciate logic, reason, and observation is directly contributing to the problem. Perhaps the indoctrinators fear that if children applied any of the above mentioned tools, they would see through the BS of the kool-aid.

What you said.

re: #167 MandyManners
Permanently disfiguring a child in the name of religion no matter what portion of the anatomy is altered is the same. It's the person in a position of power and authority using power to disfigure a defenseless person in order to permanently impose a religious belief.

There is no difference.

It is like saying that murdering a person by poisoning them is not a bad as murdering them by strangulation and torture.

The effect is the same. Murder.

In this case the effect is the same, permanently disfiguring a child to satisfy religious zeal.

@2by2
"Mr Freshwater burned a cross/x into his student's arm, I guess calling the cops is more appropriate."
Agreed. I am by no means saying what he did was right, or that the guy isn't a whack. I'm just questioning the phraseology used by the writer.

re: #169 MandyManners

Again, faith it is NOT the school's responsibility. That lies with the parents and the parents alone.

Its not coincidence or luck that America is the most powerful and hardworking country in the world.....its not a coincidence that strong Christian beliefs and values got us to this point. Take that all away from children in schools and its a slippery slope.

Hey, we disagree on this, but we're still buddies right?

re: #181 MandyManners ...sometimes I'm a bit sarcastic

re: #173 FinnAgain

I regret that I have but one ding to give.

re: #173 FinnAgain

“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter TV/computer/PS3/et cet. in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers." - Socrates

re: #166 MandyManners

Oh, goodness gracious me! Where are they getting the booze?!

They send older 'friends' into supermarkets and let them buy the stuff.
Also, parents are unfortunately known to buy it for their children.
Its mostly what is known as 'alcopops' - sweet limonade and similar, with a good amount of vodka in it.
... or cider ...
Police on patrol takes it away and pours it down the drains - but the most disquieting thing is that the parents ahve no idea (and couldn't care less!) where their children are at 10, 12, or even 2 o'clock in the night.

Lots of parents of the underclass (can't call them anything else) have totally abandoned all care for their children and utilise them solely as means to get more benefits (money) from the state.

re: #173 FinnAgain

And, thank you for your hard work!

re: #45 Tigger2005

At the link, lots of articles about people "rallying to the support" of this professor. What clueless idiots.

Even if you agree with this professor's religious beliefs and his views on "intelligent design," what he did is simply indefensible. He turned his classroom into Sunday school. Aren't there churches for that?

And burning a cross on a student's arm...good grief. Are these people "rallying to his support" cool with branding children?

Here's an article that mentions who some of those people are: The Firing of John Freshwater.

Apparently among his most ardent supporters are the members of a local Christian group that calls itself "Minutemen United", and who envision themselves as existing "... to wage war against a culture of God-haters".

re: #184 shanec99

Permanently disfiguring a child in the name of religion no matter what portion of the anatomy is altered is the same. It's the person in a position of power and authority using power to disfigure a defenseless person in order to permanently impose a religious belief.

There is no difference.

It is like saying that murdering a person by poisoning them is not a bad as murdering them by strangulation and torture.

The effect is the same. Murder.

In this case the effect is the same, permanently disfiguring a child to satisfy religious zeal.

With some solid cocoa butter and/or light chemical peeling, that scar will go away.

YOU CANNOT GET BACK YOUR CLITORIS ONCE IT'S CUT OUT.

OK, back to work.....I think Ive done enough damage here today. FinnAgain, your analysis was well written, but it holds no water....nice try tho professor.

Max out.

Just for burning anything into a child's arm he should be fired and prosecuted... if the school district isn't willing to do that then the family of the kid involved should get a pass for beating the shit out of him...
just my 2 centavos...

re: #186 Maximu§

Its not coincidence or luck that America is the most powerful and hardworking country in the world.....its not a coincidence that strong Christian beliefs and values got us to this point. Take that all away from children in schools and its a slippery slope.

Hey, we disagree on this, but we're still buddies right?

Oh, yes, we can agree to disagree. We're civilized.

re: #193 Charles
OK so there are some people who pretend to be Christian but would have made wonderful Wahabbis if they had been born in Saudi Arabia... tell us something we did not know.

re: #173 FinnAgain
Best post so far.

re: #187 swamprat

re: #188 buzzsawmonkey

*sigh*

I let myself get all het-up.

re: #162 Maximu§

Your point is well taken, please don't confuse me with a religious nut.

I won't. :-)

I just think churches could have been more proactive, instead of becoming defensive or arguing that religious belief is the ONLY possible source of moral guidance, the ONLY possible motivation for people to be moral. I think that is at least part of the cause of mess we're in now, where a lot of people seem to think that teaching basic moral values is equivalent to teaching religion. I do think schools could do a better job of reinforcing the principles of good citizenship, honesty, hard work, delayed gratification, respecting the life, rights, and property of others, and the like, but I also think they could do this without prayer or any overt reference to religion (outside of comparative religion, philosophy, and sociology classes).

It is churches and/or parents that should be providing kids with explicit RELIGIOUS instruction. And I do think atheist or agnostic parents have a responsibility to provide their children with a moral framework and philosophy.

re: #178 EC Marm

Agreed. But I think it's a little different with religion. Kids aren't really equipped to handle religion very well these days (IIRC the story I was refering to was 7th and 8th graders). The Introduction of bibles into the situation was a bad idea and the kids handled it poorly.

re: #194 buzzsawmonkey

One ding to rule them all, one ding find them
One ding to bring them all and in the website bind them
In the Land of Lizards where the posters vie.

LMAO!

Finally, someone does a parody of that and gets it right.

re: #191 yma o hyd

They send older 'friends' into supermarkets and let them buy the stuff.
Also, parents are unfortunately known to buy it for their children.
Its mostly what is known as 'alcopops' - sweet limonade and similar, with a good amount of vodka in it.
... or cider ...
Police on patrol takes it away and pours it down the drains - but the most disquieting thing is that the parents ahve no idea (and couldn't care less!) where their children are at 10, 12, or even 2 o'clock in the night.

Lots of parents of the underclass (can't call them anything else) have totally abandoned all care for their children and utilise them solely as means to get more benefits (money) from the state.

Sick.

I know quite a few mothers who are on welfare. But, these mothers keep track of their kids 'cause they don't want to see them on the dole when they are adults.

As far as I know, it isn't against the law to have a Bible in a public school classroom and I wonder why this is being cited in the investigation.

Back before the turn of the century, I was giving a CSICOP presentation at a local junior high and the subject turned to Y2K and various beliefs about the upcoming twenty-first century. Several kids insisted that the world was going to end. I asked why they thought this. To my surprise, they claimed that it was in the Bible. They couldn't say where but they were sure it was there. I told them to find a Bible and look up the passage. At that point, they insisted that they could not do that because Bibles were banned at school. I persuaded a couple of them to try
the library and they soon came back with an armload of Bibles as well as a copy of Strong's Exhaustive Concordance. The banned Bible advocates were astounded. I set them to work on the end of the world passage and they conceded that they couldn't find it.

How was this teacher able to make so many markings which form this very neat and obvious cross pattern? I wonder if this child was physically restrained in some way. If so, John Freshwater's actions would be even more criminal. But either way, John Freshwater is in serious criminal jeopardy and he deserves it. He has no business being a science teacher. I wonder if he realizes the damage he has done.

re: #195 MandyManners

Ever heard about reconstructive plastic surgery?

We change men to women and women to men all the time.

Its reversible, just more money and a longer procedure. Replairing a damaged clitoris can be achieved, even a damaged penis can be thanks to various surgical techniques.

re: #195 MandyManners

{Mandy Manners}

One question I'd like answered: was the mark on the kid's arm solely the result of the teacher's use of the device?

Lots of students give themselves "brands" with by rubbing their skin harshly with a pencil eraser. I wonder whether the kid went over the area to bring out the mark more. I just don't see how an electrostatic device could produce that kind of mark without the kid's being held down while the beam was concentrated.

I'm NOT defending the indefensible; I just wonder whether we have all the facts on the cross issue.

re: #193 Charles

"Minutemen United", and who envision themselves as existing "... to wage war against a culture of God-haters".

Let's hope they keep it to the spiritual realm.

re: #193 Charles

From the looks of these people I would advise the family of the branded kid to move somewhere else. - Just to be on the safe side.

re: #193 Charles

Apparently among his most ardent supporters are the members of a local Christian group that calls itself "Minutemen United", and who envision themselves as existing "... to wage war against a culture of God-haters".

And there you have it- Christian Jihad, delivered to the MSM on a silver platter and suitable for pureeing into the moral equivalence of their choice.

Game, set, match.

/Hey "Minutemen United[1]": thanks a lot, Assholes!

[1] And I'd appreciate it if you'd not air you wives' complaints in public!

re: #181 MandyManners 6/22/08 12:32:27 pm

re: #165 swamprat

He should be fired, jailed, and possibly... ...philosophy!

I'm tongue-tied. All I can say is WTF?

I thought comment #165 was a bit over the top, too. Or was it sarcasm? I couldn't tell.

ο Θεου Λογο&sigmaf αληθε ια.

Just have the books in their original languages.

re: #121 lightmourn

"Mr. Freshwater engaged in teaching of a religious nature, teaching creationism and related theories and calling evolution into question." Quick! Someone call the science Gestapo!

No... we should fire someone who is actively subverting proper science education in a science classroom.
Just like if I taught my class that spelling didn't matter and grammar could be discarded at will, I'd expect to be fired.

re: #143 infinity8ball

Also, just what is teaching of a "religious nature?" That's so ambiguous I don't even know where to begin with it. Was he teaching theology? Or was it just ID, and it's a classic labeling exercise by those who disagree with those positions?

Well, his rants about homosexuality being a sin because the bible says so proves that he was teaching theology. That he was teaching ID proves that he was, at best, teaching philosophy instead of science. Teaching that evolution was wrong, however, means that he was actively harming his students' understanding of science and the world around them.

For a teacher, that's pretty much the worst thing you could do (other than, of course, physically harming a child, which this wackjob managed too).

The fact of the matter is, our society is going from one of church AND state working together but not controlling one another, to church OR state, each operating in totally different realms and having nothing to do with each other.

Think about that for a minute. Do you really want religion even partially managed or influenced by the government? Let me repeat that. Do you really want religion even partially managed or influenced by the government?
And how do you want to make sure which religion, and which sect of it, gets to work in concert with the government? Is it you church? The one down the road? The weird one in the next town over? How about a mosque instead if the demographics shift that way? Satanism? Paganism?

You should be very, very careful before yo uclaim that religion and government should mix.
You might not get the results you wanted.

To enforce absolute secularism is unconstitutional, even in the sciences.

Science is secular.
The facts of the physical universe do not bend to any religious views.
Science is the process of investigation, confirmation and refutation. Science deals with proof for things that can be examined, tested, disproven. Faith deals with believing in things for which proof is impossible, that's why it's called faith.
The two simply do not mix, and that's fine.
They address different areas of our lives.

Science can tell you what a rose is made up of, and that won't change no matter what you believe. Like Dick said, reality is whatever doesn't go away when you stop believing in it.
But by the same token, science must, perforce, remain silent on such issues as to whether or not a rose is beautiful or whether it reveals a universe that is majestic and awe inspiring.

re: #163 shanec99

Not put out to pasture... put in jail. The dude assaulted a child. I hope he is put in jail and made some big dude's "girlfriend", where he can find out what it is like to be powerless and violated.

Once again, probably my thick skull; however, I missed the part of the article where Freshwater was charged by authorities with "assault".

I did read the part where the parents are suing the school and Freshwater. Maybe the parents will seek similar punitive damages of having Freshwater branded with a cross...er...cough...X....but I'm kind of thinking Freshwater might interpret that action as a perk -- Unlike this cow.

As they say in the south of Poland, "Na razie, all y'all."

re: #211 2by2

The KKK used crosses on their sheets, too.

re: #211 2by2

From the looks of these people I would advise the family of the branded kid to move somewhere else. - Just to be on the safe side.

Just the people to teach the kids of America!

re: #173 FinnAgain

The point is to give students the tools they will need to make their own minds up, to teach them how to think and not what to think. This idiot got it exactly backwards, and deserves to lose his job

Now that's the crux, right there.

re: #208 shanec99

Ever heard about reconstructive plastic surgery?

We change men to women and women to men all the time.

Its reversible, just more money and a longer procedure. Replairing a damaged clitoris can be achieved, even a damaged penis can be thanks to various surgical techniques.

The clitoris IS NOT DAMAGED. IT IS CUT OUT BY THE ROOT. The labia are sewn together, leaving only a small hole for urination, menstruation, intercourse and child-birth.

re: #147 Shug

bingo.

I do think there is a place for it in the public education. Teach a class on all religions. The philosophy. THe history.

On the one hand I can see your point. I would especially like to see all students read the Bible and also Greek-Roman mythology. It is distressing to find so many educated (or schooled) people today who cannot understand Western art and literature because they have lost the stories that inform it.
Knowledge of other traditions is not as essential, but it would be a good thing.

On the other hand, I would as soon swallow a bee as subject my kids to a public school course on the history and philosophy of "all religions." I have a very good idea what the material and the point of view would be, and it ain't pretty.

re: #215 Phil N Blanx

Not put out to pasture... put in jail. The dude assaulted a child. I hope he is put in jail and made some big dude's "girlfriend", where he can find out what it is like to be powerless and violated.

Once again, probably my thick skull; however, I missed the part of the article where Freshwater was charged by authorities with "assault".

I did read the part where the parents are suing the school and Freshwater. Maybe the parents will seek similar punitive damages of having Freshwater branded with a cross...er...cough...X....but I'm kind of thinking Freshwater might interpret that action as a perk -- Unlike this cow.

How would you describe a branding if not by using the word assault?

re: #208 shanec99

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

re: #193 Charles
Minutemen United
They really hate gays too. maybe that explains why last night's thread turned to gay bashing.

re: #209 goddessoftheclassroom

{Mandy Manners}

One question I'd like answered: was the mark on the kid's arm solely the result of the teacher's use of the device?

Lots of students give themselves "brands" with by rubbing their skin harshly with a pencil eraser. I wonder whether the kid went over the area to bring out the mark more. I just don't see how an electrostatic device could produce that kind of mark without the kid's being held down while the beam was concentrated.

I'm NOT defending the indefensible; I just wonder whether we have all the facts on the cross issue.

I couldn't answer that question beyond what's in both stories.

re: #206 Shiplord Kirel

As far as I know, it isn't against the law to have a Bible in a public school classroom and I wonder why this is being cited in the investigation.

Back before the turn of the century, I was giving a CSICOP presentation at a local junior high and the subject turned to Y2K and various beliefs about the upcoming twenty-first century. Several kids insisted that the world was going to end. I asked why they thought this. To my surprise, they claimed that it was in the Bible. They couldn't say where but they were sure it was there. I told them to find a Bible and look up the passage. At that point, they insisted that they could not do that because Bibles were banned at school. I persuaded a couple of them to try
the library and they soon came back with an armload of Bibles as well as a copy of Strong's Exhaustive Concordance. The banned Bible advocates were astounded. I set them to work on the end of the world passage and they conceded that they couldn't find it.

The Bible is not banned in public schools. It is a work of literature, and as such is appropriate for the library or a literature classroom. As it has been the basis for many laws and civil guidelines, it is appropriate as a reference in a social studies classroom.

The relevant part of the investigation is that it is an example of the teacher's insubordination for not putting the Bibles away as he was directed to by his principal.

I have to agree that I don't see the relevance of a Bible in a science classroom, and, since we no longer use cubits, a math classroom.

re: #193 Charles
Following the timeline of the story, the "Minutemen United" were only supporting the right of the teacher to have his own personal Bible on his desk. The allegations of abuse came later. I can not see that they supported that abuse in any way.
I'm not so sure that a teacher of any faith has the "right" to keep personal religious items on his desk in a public school. It might be an interesting case for a court to decide.
But this 'teacher' is a [deleted] up and needs to flip burgers for the next couple of decades.

re: #172 wolfie

No lunch yet. Will avoid ramen.

bbiab

re: #208 shanec99

Ever heard about reconstructive plastic surgery?

We change men to women and women to men all the time.

Its reversible, just more money and a longer procedure. Replairing a damaged clitoris can be achieved, even a damaged penis can be thanks to various surgical techniques.

You have got to be kidding.

re: #217 buzzsawmonkey

No, we change men into hormone-soaked castrati and women into hormone-soaked simulacra, and for reasons of social convention we call them "women" and "men."

The gender altered men physically resemble women during a non medical physical exam. Sure they cant reproduce, but my point was that a clitoris removed in FGM can be repaired surgically and no one but the Doctor and the patient would know any different.

re: #218 rawmuse

The KKK used crosses on their sheets, too.

These guys used crosses, too.

there are thousands of them there. And more to come.

And now I'm gone for a while.

Be back for another thread.

re: #214 FinnAgain

Think about that for a minute. Do you really want religion even partially managed or influenced by the government? Let me repeat that. Do you really want religion even partially managed or influenced by the government?
And how do you want to make sure which religion, and which sect of it, gets to work in concert with the government? Is it you church? The one down the road? The weird one in the next town over? How about a mosque instead if the demographics shift that way? Satanism? Paganism?

You should be very, very careful before you claim that religion and government should mix.
You might not get the results you wanted.

Exactly!

I again regret I have but one ding to give.

re: #208 shanec99

[Link: www.reproductiverights.org...]

re: #225 Killgore Trout

Sounds like they are not too dissimilar from the Westover Baptists of Wichita, Fred Phelps' flock.

Every day......
I pledge allegiance to
and
yea tho I walk through the valley of death
Every day, all the way through high school. Public School

re: #228 EC Marm

I can not see that they supported that abuse in any way.

See my link #225. The link to articles that mention the abuse although they don't mention it on their own site. They're aware and continue to support him.

re: #151 shanec99

It IS child abuse and assault.
It does NOT "rank up there" with FGM.

Suppose the child were your daughter.
Which would you prefer, if Fate only gave you two choices?
A scarred arm or FGM?
If you say it makes no difference to you, okay. We disagree.

re: #232 shanec99

The gender altered men physically resemble women during a non medical physical exam. Sure they cant reproduce, but my point was that a clitoris removed in FGM can be repaired surgically and no one but the Doctor and the patient would know any different.

NO IT CANNOT. YOU CANNOT REPAIR WHAT DOES NOT EXIST ANYMORE.

re: #228 EC Marm

Following the timeline of the story, the "Minutemen United" were only supporting the right of the teacher to have his own personal Bible on his desk. The allegations of abuse came later. I can not see that they supported that abuse in any way.
I'm not so sure that a teacher of any faith has the "right" to keep personal religious items on his desk in a public school. It might be an interesting case for a court to decide.
But this 'teacher' is a [deleted] up and needs to flip burgers for the next couple of decades.

Call me old-fashioned, a liberal, whatever. But the concept of a Christian militia just doesn't really make me a happy lizard.

re: #214 FinnAgain

I humbly request that the ding code be altered temporarily to allow multiple user updings for this post.

re: #177 MandyManners

Did I mention Charles' guitar playing is irreproachable?

Obviously I disagree with your interpretation but as someone with impeccable manners recently stated; "...we can agree to disagree. We're civilized."

re: #244 buzzsawmonkey

Why are my legs crossing?

re: #219 Charles

small town dictators!
interesting what comes up if you do some due diligence digging.
thanks Charles

re: #245 rawmuse

Why are my legs crossing?

LOL, I did it subconsciously.

re: #174 MandyManners

Mandy,

She is just a great kid, like Kiddo...and like my Bubbe, who told me that she was selfish, and wanted to see me wear it while she was alive, I feel the same way. And like me, she is also the oldest granddaughter. I was, on both sides, but on my maternal side, I had a boy cousin who was 7 years older, and like a brother when we were young.

re: #224 MandyManners

Horrible inst it... mutilating children out of religious fervour.

This dude did the same thing... only on a different portion of the anatomy.

re: #214 FinnAgain

You should be very, very careful before you claim that religion and government should mix.
You might not get the results you wanted.

It's also highly dangerous to turn to the state to instill a missing sense of spirituality. One that can directly lead to a form of government I thought most Lizards were opposed to.

(Those who have been reading up on the subject will know of what I speak.)

Gonna' hafta' take a break before I pound my keyboard into smithereens. Later.

re: #249 shanec99

Horrible inst it... mutilating children out of religious fervour.

This dude did the same thing... only on a different portion of the anatomy.

HE DIDN'T RIP THE KID'S ARM OFF!

re: #245 rawmuse

Why are my legs crossing?

Socrates would call you a punk. Are you gobbling up dainties too?/

re: #249 shanec99

AGAIN, READ

[Link: www.reproductiverights.org...]

CATCH A FUCKING CLUE.

re: #214 FinnAgain

Science is secular.

Science is the uncovering and interpreting of facts. It holds no religious affiliation. Evolution, like it or hate it, is the prevailing view of origins, so it should be taught. If you, a teacher, don't like Evolution, you are free to question it within the framework of the scientific method. You are free to teach your students how to analyze and question the veracity of what they are taught. You are not free to force them to unquestioningly believe whatever view you, the teacher, have.

re: #182 Sharmuta

Yes, I agree, It does weaken science if the inverse of what I said previously does occur, such as what people like this teacher are doing in the classrooms. If religion wants to affect science then they should teach that science in the Church or a religious class. Christianity it seems is weakening there own resolve of traditional thought. It is a weakness that Islam does not share who is violently intolerant of any dissent from doctrine. Real Scientists have been historically murdered and tourtured for he sake of this "Religious Science".

We are gathering real Scientific data at a incredible rate and is more than any one man can scour in multiple his life times. When we start seeing evidences that allows this feeling to become a true "Hypothesis" then we can start pursuing that question. At this point "Intelligent Design" nowhere near qualifying at being hypothesis. This type of interference must be stomped out and confronted for the fraud it is until then.

re: #238 Killgore Trout

See my link #225. The link to articles that mention the abuse although they don't mention it on their own site. They're aware and continue to support him.

I see. They jumped on the bandwagon for one reason, but they should have dumped this guy like a hot potato once the abuse allegation came out.

re: #186 Maximu§

Its not coincidence or luck that America is the most powerful and hardworking country in the world.....its not a coincidence that strong Christian beliefs and values got us to this point. Take that all away from children in schools and its a slippery slope.

Why? You haven't explained HOW it's a "slippery slope."

If parents are teaching children their religious and moral values at home or in the church of their choice, and practicing those values at home, at work, at play, and so on, how is it automatically a "slippery slope" if children go to school and don't receive religious indoctrination, but instead are simply taught to read, write, do arithmetic, understand history, economics, science, civics, democracy, critical thinking, and so on?

Nothing is being "taken away" from them. Do you honestly believe the State can take God away from somebody who believes God resides in him or her, or is everywhere?

The whole point of schools not pushing prayer or religion of any kind is to RESPECT the individual religious beliefs of the children. Now, I have no problem with schools seeking to support parents in their efforts by reinforcing discipline, civic virtue and moral principles that society considers more or less universal regardless of individual religious belief, to the point that it has codified them into law.

But schools can do this without promoting any particular religious belief. AND without "taking away" any child's belief.

re: #184 shanec99

Permanently disfiguring a child in the name of religion no matter what portion of the anatomy is altered is the same. It's the person in a position of power and authority using power to disfigure a defenseless person in order to permanently impose a religious belief.

There is no difference.

It is like saying that murdering a person by poisoning them is not a bad as murdering them by strangulation and torture.

The effect is the same. Murder.

In this case the effect is the same, permanently disfiguring a child to satisfy religious zeal.

Please don't call FGM a disfigurement. It goes way beyond that.

re: #231 Racer X

No I am not kidding, FGM can be repaired surgically by a skilled surgeon. I just came home from a Muslim country > 90% Islamic where more than 90% of women have had FGM done to them. Some have had surgical repairs done and they are apparently satisfied with the results.

re: #249 shanec99

Horrible inst it... mutilating children out of religious fervour.

This dude did the same thing... only on a different portion of the anatomy.

Dude.

FGM is not the same as what this teacher did to a kids arm.