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Supreme Court: No Death Penalty for Child Rape

Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 11:26:33 am PDT

The Supreme Court decided today that raping a child should not be punished with the death penalty.

Justice Kennedy said the decision reflects a “maturing society,” which apparently means “more forgiving of child rape.”

The reasoning appears to boil down to: if the child isn’t killed, the rapist shouldn’t be killed either. “Maturity?” This is grade-school level moral equivalence. Retch.

WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court ruled, 5 to 4, on Wednesday that sentencing someone to death for raping a child is unconstitutional, assuming that the victim is not killed.

“The death penalty is not a proportional punishment for the rape of a child,” Justice Anthony M. Kennedy wrote for the court. He was joined by Justices John Paul Stevens, David H. Souter, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen G. Breyer.

The court overturned a ruling by the Louisiana Supreme Court, which had held that child rape is unique in the harm it inflicts not just upon the victim but on society and that, short of first-degree murder, no crime is more deserving of the death penalty.

Justice Kennedy, while in no way minimizing the heinous nature of child rape, wrote that executing someone for that crime, assuming that the victim was not killed, violates the Eighth Amendment’s ban on cruel and unusual punishment, which draws it meaning from “the evolving standards of decency that mark the progress of a maturing society.”

“When the law punishes by death, it risks its own sudden descent into brutality, transgressing the constitutional commitment to decency and restraint,” Justice Kennedy wrote.

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493 comments

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1 Bubblehead II  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:27:45am

Puke!

2 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:27:58am
3 Atoz  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:29:28am

Another reason to vote against Obama.

4 Rogue198  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:30:07am

I've been on other boards demanding the resident libs who are cheering this decision explain to me:

Why can we kill the innocent that may result from a rape but not the monster who committed the rape.


So far, no takers...

5 Golem Akbar  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:30:23am

I'm not smart enough to understand the Justices' (oxymoron?) decision. In my book, child rape is as heinous as murder. Oh well, that's just me, I guess.

6 HULUGU  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:31:09am

i wonder how "mature" kennedy would be if his kid was raped--the murder of the spirit of the of the raped kid for the rest of their life means nothing to such a high minded guy--oh well--he's from san francisco!

7 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:31:53am

Upon what basis (if not religious) does one decide that only murder is worthy of the death penalty?

8 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:31:59am

I still say life in prison while the guards look the other way (or watch, if they want) as all the other inmates use the molester as a sex toy, would be appropriate, and more punitive than killing.

9 Cygnus  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:32:06am

I wonder what he would say if his own child were raped. Of course, I don't wish that on anybody!

10 Cognito  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:32:43am

I would argue that in some ways the rape of a child is worse than murder, because the victim lives on, being killed every day for the rest of his or her life.

That's why we have all sorts of murder mysteries: TV shows, dinner theater, board games, movies.

At the next party you attend, I doubt anyone will call out, "Anyone want to play Child-Rape Clue?"

11 Jetpilot1101  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:32:50am

Justice Kennedy is really turning into a royal pain in the backside. I shudder at what this country will look like after Obama gets his mits on the court.

12 Vergeltung  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:32:53am

if there was a guaranteed life with no parole, it would be more palletable (sp?). however, as long as the sick creature still breathes, some moonbat governor or legislature could let it out when it's "cured".

sick. I have to deal with some of these monsters in court, and, thankfully my judge knows how I feel about them and appoints assigned counsel. if not, I think i'd have to find different employment. yikes.

13 bosforus  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:32:59am

Well then I'm sure they're thrilled to know they'll be raped several times over in jail. I hear child rapists are kind of low on the respect list in prison.

14 socratease  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:33:05am

I don't think the death penalty is the right punishment for child rape, either, but I don't see anything in the Constitution that forbids the democratic process in state legislatures from deciding otherwise. If it violates "evolving standards of decency", why did the voters elect representatives who enacted it? Yet another case of the court substituting its judgment for the voters, which is not its job.

15 mbruce  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:33:22am

re: #4 Rogue198

I've been on other boards demanding the resident libs who are cheering this decision explain to me:

Why can we kill the innocent that may result from a rape but not the monster who committed the rape.


So far, no takers...

No, they cannot answer this, nor even discuss it because their loyalty to liberalism does not allow factual, reasoned discussions.

16 kansas  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:33:32am

Well, one point is that actually putting someone to death is close to impossible, so maybe we are just kidding ourselves to think the death penalty would actually ever be used. I think maybe a painless quick death might be too good for those bastards.

17 boatguyjim  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:33:35am

If that happened to my kid I would have to reach out and touch the perp, from 1000yrds out

18 Pyrocles  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:33:46am

I'm sure not even murder is worthy according these justices. They're just biding their time to push that ruling down our throats.

re: #7 WrathofG-d

Upon what basis (if not religious) does one decide that only murder is worthy of the death penalty?

19 Cygnus  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:34:22am

NAMBLA probably has the champagne on ice right now.

20 Vergeltung  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:34:30am

re: #7 WrathofG-d

Upon what basis (if not religious) does one decide that only murder is worthy of the death penalty?

good question. standards of the community maybe? Our anscestors knew how to deal with them. they did not suffer the pangs of liberal guilt like modern society.

Pre-1950, these creatures were disposed of in civilized societies.

21 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:34:35am

[This comment mostly pre-deleted to save Stinky both the time and the effort of deleting it as what it could contain would be very vile toward the SCOTUS right now.]

/BTW, Justice Kennedy is an idiot, and WTF were the other four thinking!?!

22 Rogue198  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:34:37am

re: #15 mbruce

No, they cannot answer this, nor even discuss it because their loyalty to liberalism does not allow factual, reasoned discussions.

I take that for granted...they're liberals

23 HeatherRadish  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:34:42am

I think child rape should be punished by violent sodomy with a blunt object.

It's proportional. And the "victim" (by which I mean, the convicted criminal) can go on to live a "normal" life.

*blink* What?

24 winston06  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:34:48am

Two types of abusive criminals should be executed (aside from murderers) : 1- Child abusers, 2- Animal abusers

25 tunnelrat  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:35:19am

Sadly, it is not real surprising. Killing a full term fetus is not considered a crime, so it stands to reason that liberals do not see fit to punish this harshly either.

26 coloradobuff  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:35:27am

Ridiculous. The majority give themselves away by the following:

“When the law punishes by death, it risks its own sudden descent into brutality, transgressing the constitutional commitment to decency and restraint,” Justice Kennedy wrote.

This is a clear indication that all capital punishment is wrong (in their view), not just for those convicted of child rape.

This Court still isn't nearly conservative enough to protect the Constitution. Having Mr. Obama in the driver's seat will only make it worse (amazingly).

27 Jetpilot1101  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:35:27am

re: #21 Honorary Yooper

[This comment mostly pre-deleted to save Stinky both the time and the effort of deleting it as what it could contain would be very vile toward the SCOTUS right now.]

/BTW, Justice Kennedy is an idiot, and WTF were the other four thinking!?!

They're liberals. They don't think, they feel and ensure they tells us how to feel.

28 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:35:33am

re: #9 Cygnus

I wonder what he would say if his own child were raped. Of course, I don't wish that on anybody!

See my #8, but first, I'd castrate him with a rusty butter knife.
But I'd want to be REAL SURE it was the piece of shit (and I apologize to pieces of shit for the comparison)

29 Spiny Norman  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:35:37am

Sould we now assume treason is no longer a capital offense?

30 Ringo the Gringo  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:35:53am
The Supreme Court decided today that raping a child should not be punished with the death penalty.

How about castration, along with a mandatory life sentence?

31 beens21  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:35:54am

Kennedy is now the court.most decisions will now be 5-4,with him as the deciding vote.

32 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:36:41am

re: #29 Spiny Norman

Sould we now assume treason is no longer a capital offense?

It sure as hell hasn't been for quite some time now.

33 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:36:42am
34 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:36:43am

re: #10 Cognito

At the next party you attend, I doubt anyone will call out, "Anyone want to play Child-Rape Clue?"

A show I bother listening to on NPR is This American Life, which despite it's lefty hipper-than-thou bent, is sometimes good.

On one show earlier this year, they had interviews with a number of people who had had close relatives murdered at some point in their lives. One made more or less your point; she found "Murder Mystery Parties" as repugnant as she would "Rape Mystery Parties".

35 Clutch  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:36:44am

It sure seems to me that nothing good comes from anyone named "Kennedy"; at least in a very long while (landing on the moon was way kewl...).

/painting with a very broad brush

36 HeatherRadish  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:37:03am

re: #29 Spiny Norman

Sould we now assume treason is no longer a capital offense?

Do we still charge people with treason?

37 Golem Akbar  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:37:03am

re: #10 Cognito

I would argue that in some ways the rape of a child is worse than murder, because the victim lives on, being killed every day for the rest of his or her life.

Plus, the victim's family continues to suffer along with the victim. Many more people are irreparably harmed for life.

38 Vergeltung  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:37:13am

re: #29 Spiny Norman

Sould we now assume treason is no longer a capital offense?

no such thing as treason anymore, unfortunately.

39 WriterMom  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:37:26am

re: #6 HULUGU

Good to see you round these parts....

40 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:37:26am

Dear Surviving Child-Rape Victim:

We are very sorry to inform you that with good behavior the man (or woman) who repeatedly raped you will be eligible for parole in 20 years. Since you will be in your childbearing years, we strongly suggest that you change your name because the scum bag has repeatedly informed friends and relatives that he cant wait to get out and visit more torture on your children.

Justice Kennedy and Friends

You know that this is going to cause more parents to take the law into their own hands. They will do it because then they can truly tell their children "that man (woman) will never ever hurt you again."

41 kansas  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:37:26am

re: #29 Spiny Norman

Sould we now assume treason is no longer a capital offense?

re: #32 Honorary Yooper

It sure as hell hasn't been for quite some time now.

Refer to New York Times.

42 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:37:30am

re: #19 Cygnus

NAMBLA probably has the champagne on ice right now.

And the cherry soda for the victims.

43 Know Your Enemy  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:37:38am

Some cop on Rush said that having the death penalty for this crime encourages the rapist to kill the child in order to avoid having a witness that could lead to his death.

Not sure if that justifies the ruling at all. Seems sorta backwards to me.

44 JammieWearingFool  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:37:50am

Supremes keep teeing it up for the GOP, but are they bright enough to capitalize?

Providing Club Gitmo guests constitutional rights, sparing kiddie rapers and soon they make rescind your Second Amendment rights.

Yes, kids, elections do matter, and you can bet your ass at least two of these liberal fossils are retiring soon. One can only imagine the abominations The Obamination will put on there.

45 jackflash  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:37:53am

OK, take a deep breath and let's talk about this. The reason they stopped giving the death penalty for rape in the 1960s (as I remember - I was just a teenager) was because they didn't want to give an incentive to the rapist to kill the girl. If you rape a kid and the penalty is death if you're caught, you might as well kill the kid afterward to eliminate the witness that can put on the gallows. That's the reasoning, not that rape is in some sense a lesser offense.

46 Ezekiel2517  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:38:08am

Is there any such thing as cruel and unusual punishment when compared with the nature of the crime?

If anyone rapes my child and I get my hands on them, they will suffer a severe penalty and the state won't get a chance to decide what happens to them.

47 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:38:23am

re: #29 Spiny Norman

Sould we now assume treason is no longer a capital offense?

You assume it's currently viewed as ANY kind of offense.

48 BGOH  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:38:37am

NObama.

McCain '08

49 WriterMom  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:38:38am

re: #14 socratease

What do you think is the right punishment?

50 mbruce  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:38:52am

This and the rant from the Mass. slug Fagan pretty much should put the "for the children" nonsense from the libs to rest. It should, but of course it won;t.
I hope that normal, healthy, moral adults with children hear what these people ( i use the term loosely here) are saying , and then realize that Obama will PACK every court he can with their ilk.

51 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:38:57am
52 Dad O' Blondes  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:38:58am

“The death penalty is not a proportional punishment for the rape of a child,”

Sez who?

.

53 lawhawk  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:39:02am

So, what would the court do in an instance where an individual has been convicted for treason and where no one was killed as a result of the action. Under Kennedy's reasoning, it's not a leap to argue that the Court could find that the penalty of death is cruel and unusual. However, the Court declined to go that route and simply ignored this particular crime.

It did so because the crime of raping a child is particularly heinous and the state determined that the appropriate punishment was death. Not because the Constitution says that such a punishment is cruel and unusual, but because the five concurring justices said that it was based on their logic.

But the real question is consistency? Society deemed both to be crimes subject to death penalty, but this court, and this rationale puts the death penalty on shaky ground for crimes where the victim is not dead.

This is yet another example of where the court (any court really) engages in public policy rather than dealing with substantive law.

54 Cygnus  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:39:11am

re: #42 Kosh's Shadow

And the cherry soda for the victims.

And Neverland will be the venue. Nice.

55 doppelganglander  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:39:19am

I think it's the state's job to decide what merits the death penalty, not Anthony Kennedy's. However, there's one good reason not to have the death penalty for the rape of a child. I think it would be more likely to result in the child being murdered, as the rapist reasons he is eliminating the witness. Or, a rapist who is progressing towards murder might figure "in for a penny, in for a pound."

56 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:39:20am

re: #13 bosforus

Well then I'm sure they're thrilled to know they'll be raped several times over in jail. I hear child rapists are kind of low on the respect list in prison.


generally kept in solitary with like minded and only allowed in the yard during off hours.

57 Golem Akbar  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:40:02am

re: #29 Spiny Norman

Sould we now assume treason is no longer a capital offense?


I think we should assume that the Court will no longer consider anything worthy of capital punishment.

58 WriterMom  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:40:10am

re: #30 Ringo the Gringo

Too kind. And you'd still be paying the bill for a castrated child rapist to live their whole natural life in prison.

59 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:40:10am

re: #10 Cognito

I would argue that in some ways the rape of a child is worse than murder, because the victim lives on, being killed every day for the rest of his or her life.

Horrible as the crime is, I don't agree with you that it's worse than murder. I am not willing to make the assumption that a child-rape victim's life becomes essentially worthless after the crime, such that he/she would be better off dead.

60 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:40:12am

re: #20 Vergeltung

in a multicultural society, then whose "community standards"?

61 Spiny Norman  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:40:24am

re: #47 Occasional Reader

re: #29 Spiny Norman
Should we now assume treason is no longer a capital offense?

You assume it's currently viewed as ANY kind of offense.

Ah! There's my problem.

62 lawhawk  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:40:55am

re: #36 HeatherRadish

Adam Gadahn for one... though it is quite likely that the sentence was administered by Hellfire, and not by the courts.

63 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:41:36am

re: #55 doppelganglander

Problem is, a large number of them already murder the child as well in an attempt to eliminate the witness. That's where forensics comes in and nails his (her) ass to the wall.

64 RYO the mole  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:41:42am
re: #42: OK, take a deep breath and let's talk about this. The reason they stopped giving the death penalty for rape in the 1960s (as I remember - I was just a teenager) was because they didn't want to give an incentive to the rapist to kill the girl. If you rape a kid and the penalty is death if you're caught, you might as well kill the kid afterward to eliminate the witness that can put on the gallows. That's the reasoning, not that rape is in some sense a lesser offense.

This thought occurred to me, too. But I wonder whether it was argued before the Supreme Court or not.

65 paxnhymn  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:41:54am

re: #49 WriterMom

What do you think is the right punishment?

I answered your comment on the other thread concerning this WriterMom. Y'all know how I feel about wasted organs....

66 bosforus  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:42:14am

re: #56 Eowyn2

generally kept in solitary with like minded and only allowed in the yard during off hours.

that's too bad

67 coquimbojoe  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:42:16am

I have a hard time with capital punishment for child rape. Don't get me wrong, I can see the logic there, but I guess I just get squeamish about the death penalty in general. (Perish the thought that I am even remotely liberal) I prefer 24 hour a day isolation for the rest of their life.

I also have to say I disagree with the sentiment of prisoner rape. It feels like karmic justice, but rape is bad in any form, and it should be paid more attention in our prisons instead of snickered at.

/soapbox, off...

68 chinesearithmetic  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:42:23am

Justice Kennedy, while in no way minimizing the heinous nature of child rape,

Very revealing, that "in no way minimizing." If the shill reporter had just said "acknowledging," no bias alarm would not gone off.

69 Golem Akbar  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:42:27am

re: #45 jackflash

OK, take a deep breath and let's talk about this. The reason they stopped giving the death penalty for rape in the 1960s (as I remember - I was just a teenager) was because they didn't want to give an incentive to the rapist to kill the girl. If you rape a kid and the penalty is death if you're caught, you might as well kill the kid afterward to eliminate the witness that can put on the gallows. That's the reasoning, not that rape is in some sense a lesser offense.


which is a wonderful and logical reason to never impose the death penalty for anything. Meaning: you can do anything, and if caught, and with good behavior, some day get to walk.

70 Spenser (with an S)  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:42:44am

re: #9 Cygnus


I wonder what he would say if his own child were raped. Of course, I don't wish that on anybody!

This is, of course, true. But even using your brain and soul without an emotional attachment says this is backwards and ignorant.

71 madisonsfriend  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:42:48am

re: #45 jackflash

OK, take a deep breath and let's talk about this. The reason they stopped giving the death penalty for rape in the 1960s (as I remember - I was just a teenager) was because they didn't want to give an incentive to the rapist to kill the girl. If you rape a kid and the penalty is death if you're caught, you might as well kill the kid afterward to eliminate the witness that can put on the gallows. That's the reasoning, not that rape is in some sense a lesser offense.

I think I remember that now- which was why I decided that if anyone hurt my kids, I would take care of them myself(or by buying some permanent pain for them in prison). My kids are grown now- but I still think I would take "justice" into my own hands if necessary.

72 WriterMom  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:43:08am

re: #59 Occasional Reader

I agree with Cognito in that the survivors live with the death of their innocence forever, and the trauma, but you are right, that life is always better.

73 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:43:34am

As mentioned in a previous thread, I am not averse to the idea of the 8th Amendment generating "proportionality review".

I have mixed feelings about this case. I'd want to read the opinon in full.

74 Vergeltung  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:43:46am

re: #60 WrathofG-d

in a multicultural society, then whose "community standards"?

i hear ya. it's a mess. community standards are supposed to be reflected in the law, statutory law, as enacted by a duly elected legislature.

however, too often since the 1950s, liberal justices have abrogated the will of the people and legislatures. there was a statistically visible crime boom after the many and several moonbat decisions of the SCOTUS under Earl Warren.

it boggles.

75 Golem Akbar  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:43:51am

re: #59 Occasional Reader

Horrible as the crime is, I don't agree with you that it's worse than murder. I am not willing to make the assumption that a child-rape victim's life becomes essentially worthless after the crime, such that he/she would be better off dead.


How about the murder to the lives of the other people affected by this rape. The child's parents, their lives, their relatives, etc. The damage can't be accounted, it is so total.

76 Dianna  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:43:52am

I really can't comment on this.

77 sadhu  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:43:56am

re: #67 coquimbojoe

I have a hard time with capital punishment for child rape. Don't get me wrong, I can see the logic there, but I guess I just get squeamish about the death penalty in general. (Perish the thought that I am even remotely liberal) I prefer 24 hour a day isolation for the rest of their life.

on your dime, not mine

78 coquimbojoe  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:43:59am

re: #44 JammieWearingFool

Supremes keep teeing it up for the GOP, but are they bright enough to capitalize?

In a word, no. The proof, John McCain.

79 WriterMom  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:44:02am

re: #65 paxnhymn

My question wasn't actually directed to you, but if you insist on coming back to the topic of 'wasted organs', I'll say it again: you're giving me the creeps.

80 Spiny Norman  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:44:12am

re: #57 Golem Akbar

re: #29 Spiny Norman
Should we now assume treason is no longer a capital offense?

I think we should assume that the Court will no longer consider anything worthy of capital punishment.

As was noted above, Justice Kennedy already believes that:

“When the law punishes by death, it risks its own sudden descent into brutality, transgressing the constitutional commitment to decency and restraint,” Justice Kennedy wrote.
81 itellu3times  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:44:24am

Belmont links to Volokh:

But Orin Kerr at the Volokh Conspiracy cites Justice Alito’s dissent on this very point.
A major theme of the Court’s opinion is that permitting the death penalty in child-rape cases is not in the best interests of the victims of these crimes and society at large. In this vein, the Court suggests that it is more painful for child-rape victims to testify when the prosecution is seeking the death penalty. Ante, at 32. The Court also argues that “a State that punishes child rape by death may remove a strong incentive for the rapist not to kill the victim,” ante, at 35, and may discourage the reporting of child rape, ante, at 34–35.

These policy arguments, whatever their merits, are simply not pertinent to the question whether the death penalty is “cruel and unusual” punishment. The Eighth Amendment protects the right of an accused. It does not authorize this Court to strike down federal or state criminal laws on the ground that they are not in the best interests of crime victims or the broader society. The Court’s policy arguments concern matters that legislators should—and presumably do—take into account in deciding whether to enact a capital child-rape statute, but these arguments are irrelevant to the question that is before us in this case. Our cases have cautioned against using “ ‘the aegis of the Cruel and Unusual Punishment Clause’ to cut off the normal democratic processes,” Atkins v. Virginia, 536 U. S. 304, 323 (2002) (Rehnquist, C. J., dissenting), in turn quoting Gregg v. Georgia, 428 U. S. 153, 176 (1976), (joint opinion of Stewart, Powell, and STEVENS, JJ.), but the Court forgets that warning here.

The theme here is the court issuing rulings much broader than the issues brought to them. Out of control, and arguably invalid, unconstitutional themselves.

Where are the limits to what SCOTUS may do?

82 madisonsfriend  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:44:36am

re: #67 coquimbojoe

I have a hard time with capital punishment for child rape. Don't get me wrong, I can see the logic there, but I guess I just get squeamish about the death penalty in general. (Perish the thought that I am even remotely liberal) I prefer 24 hour a day isolation for the rest of their life.

Well, I just don't think we should support anyone really vicious for the rest of their life- no matter how bad prison is.

83 The Other Les  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:44:39am
“When the law punishes by death, it risks its own sudden descent into brutality, transgressing the constitutional commitment to decency and restraint,” Justice Kennedy wrote.


When the law punishes by death, it makes damned sure that the perpetrator never harms another person ever again.

Justice Kennedy can basically shove it.

84 Sizzlack  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:44:41am

I will never understand this. Raping a child is tantamount to murder. Do the Justices think the kid is going to grow up normal after being raped? Do they think they will be able to continue having a normal childhood after being raped? And Kennedy sites a more mature society...is he retarded? A more mature society would be one where no one rapes children. Welcome to the 12th dimension...

85 jackflash  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:44:44am

re: #71 madisonsfriend
Sounds reasonable.

86 IPLaw  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:45:03am

Note how the left is silent about death for apostasy in certain, um, cultures.

Sick, twisted, suicidal hypocrites.

87 Maine's Michael  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:45:22am

If I was in the courtroom when someone who had committed such an assault on one of my beloveds was being tried, the death penalty would be carried out.

Not necessarily by the court.

88 coquimbojoe  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:45:33am

re: #77 sadhu

on your dime, not mine

See, I get that too. I am very conflicted about the whole thing. I have never felt bad when the death penalty is carried out. I guess on this issue I am as conflicted as most liberals on anything....

89 turn  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:45:40am

re: #64 RYO the mole

sock puppet?

90 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:45:52am

re: #45 jackflash

OK, take a deep breath and let's talk about this. The reason they stopped giving the death penalty for rape in the 1960s (as I remember - I was just a teenager) was because they didn't want to give an incentive to the rapist to kill the girl. If you rape a kid and the penalty is death if you're caught, you might as well kill the kid afterward to eliminate the witness that can put on the gallows. That's the reasoning, not that rape is in some sense a lesser offense.

Which is a bullshit reason. What we now have is a bunch of rapists who KNOW that if they leave the victim alive, they wont face hard time or brutal punishment. They can beat, torture, cut, to their black hearts content, cut up someone's face, body, etc. they do 10 yrs if caught and boom back on the street a bit smarter for being caught but just as twisted.
Reader's Digest (I think) interviewed hundreds of rapists and only a few carried guns because having a gun raised the stakes tremendously.

91 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:46:03am

re: #45 jackflash

If you rape a kid and the penalty is death if you're caught, you might as well kill the kid afterward to eliminate the witness that can put on the gallows. That's the reasoning, not that rape is in some sense a lesser offense.

The thing is, that observation is irrelevant to an 8th Amendment argument. That's something for lawmakers to ponder, not judges.

92 coquimbojoe  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:46:21am

re: #77 sadhu

on your dime, not mine

BTW, where is the picture in your avatar from?

93 sadhu  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:46:25am

re: #88 coquimbojoe

I guess on this issue I am as conflicted as most liberals on anything....

do you have kids?

94 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:46:26am

If someone rapes my kids and I find him [deleted]

95 JammieWearingFool  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:46:30am

re: #78 coquimbojoe

In a word, no. The proof, John McCain.

I'm afraid you may be right. At the very least the GOP needs to make sure the Democrats are on record supporting this.

I doubt any of these issue will even come up at the debates, if Obama even bothers to show up for one.

96 Land Shark  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:46:38am

re: #4 Rogue198

I've been on other boards demanding the resident libs who are cheering this decision explain to me:

Why can we kill the innocent that may result from a rape but not the monster who committed the rape.


So far, no takers...

Well said, man. I have to confess if I ever come across somebody raping a child and I have my .45 ACP handy that lowlife's getting the full 10 round clip. And if they arrest me for killing the scumbag I'm gonna be proud and loud. "Yeah, I put 10 bullets into that slime. Too bad the clip only held 10 rounds. That SOB will never rape a child again."

Sorry if I sound bloodthirsty, but anyone who would rape a child is someone the world can do without.

97 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:46:43am

re: #52 Dad O' Blondes

“The death penalty is not a proportional punishment for the rape of a child,”

Sez who?

.

people without children to protect

98 sadhu  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:46:43am

re: #92 coquimbojoe

BTW, where is the picture in your avatar from?

Abacos

99 Vergeltung  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:46:46am

re: #79 WriterMom

My question wasn't actually directed to you, but if you insist on coming back to the topic of 'wasted organs', I'll say it again: you're giving me the creeps.

is that guy an undertaker or something? a necrophiliac? seems alful comfy with creppy stuff. (shivers)

100 jcm  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:46:56am

Anyone still think holding the nose and pulling the lever for McCain doesn't matter?

BHO you'll get a Lynne Stewart clone on the court.

With McCain the worst will be a centrist.

101 Cognito  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:47:05am

re: #59 Occasional Reader

Horrible as the crime is, I don't agree with you that it's worse than murder. I am not willing to make the assumption that a child-rape victim's life becomes essentially worthless after the crime, such that he/she would be better off dead.

I've heard that argument, and I think it's flawed. I never said their lives are worthless; I said they suffer.

Humans have an enormous capacity to endure suffering. It may be one of the most remarkable things about us as creatures. But that doesn't lessen the pain; the monster who inflicts, say, sixty-eight years of anguish is no better than the monster who inflicts it for a moment.

I'm playing devil's advocate a bit, as I haven't sorted out my own feeling on the matter yet. But I will add this: I suspect many, many murders are one-time offenses. A woman, for instance, discovers her husband has been cheating, grabs a weapon and exacts her revenge.

But I suspect that a crime like child-rape is borne of a compulsion that doesn't stop at one. That compulsion is both the argument for and against the death penalty: the person is a liability to the human race, on one hand, and on the other hand he may be enslaved to a mental incapacity, which might mitigate the death penalty.

Like I said, I haven't worked it all out yet.

102 TallTexan  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:47:16am

When the next revolution happens, I hope we are wise enough to make sure Supreme Court Justices are not appointed for a life time, have to live in an apartment complex that includes at least 20% kids, and have to dive their own rear-ends to work in small cars or under 1,000cc motorcycles.

Now we are stuck with an aristocracy that include five folks who live in a universe unique to them.

103 Golem Akbar  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:47:16am

re: #80 Spiny Norman


Funny how he uses the word "decency." A decent society will punish the murderer with death. Child rapists don't deserve any consideration, either, by a decent society.

104 Spiny Norman  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:47:27am

re: #68 chinesearithmetic

Justice Kennedy, while in no way minimizing the heinous nature of child rape,

Very revealing, that "in no way minimizing." If the shill reporter had just said "acknowledging," no bias alarm would not gone off.

Are those words anywhere in Kennedy's written opinion, or is the NY Times covering for him?

105 coquimbojoe  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:47:43am

re: #93 sadhu

do you have kids?

Yes three and I would happily get my own gun if some monster did anything... (see my above post about your avatar....)

106 Steffan  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:47:43am

Well, the simple answer here is the same as in the case of the unlawful combatants.

If we don't take them alive, we don't have to worry about what the courts might decide.

The next best answer is, once they're convicted and sent to prison, turn them loose into the general population after you let certain other prisoners (gang leaders) know what they did to be there.

"Short-eyes" are at the very bottom of the totem pole in prison, and their life expectancy can be measured in hours.

107 sadhu  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:47:48am

re: #98 sadhu

Abacos

oops - Abacos was the old one - that one is from Napa valley looking east after a dusting of snow

108 WriterMom  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:47:58am

re: #80 Spiny Norman

Yes-certainly those child rapists have a lot of decency and all that stuff...

JEBUS MURPHY.

109 madisonsfriend  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:48:13am

re: #86 IPLaw

Note how the left is silent about death for apostasy in certain, um, cultures.

Sick, twisted, suicidal hypocrites.


But, but that is their culture- how can you condemn them for that? Just like murdering a daughter or sister who talks to or dates a man - she is killed to save the family's honor. Now if we did it, that is wrong but as it is their culture - that is an okay thing. Now that I have explained it, I am sure you understand.

Love, Medea B.

110 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:48:19am

re: #81 itellu3times

Man, Alito totally ripped off my idea!

/

111 Vergeltung  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:48:32am

re: #87 Maine's Michael

If I was in the courtroom when someone who had committed such an assault on one of my beloveds was being tried, the death penalty would be carried out.
Not necessarily by the court.

2 words: Metal Detector.

112 SusanL  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:48:41am

re: #32 Honorary Yooper

Is it even against the law any more?

113 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:48:48am

re: #86 IPLaw

Note how the left is silent about death for apostasy in certain, um, cultures.

Sick, twisted, suicidal hypocrites.


but that is a cultural thing which adds to the diversity of the nation/world. Death for rape takes away the life of a divergent person and narrows the spectrum of the rainbow.

114 The Other Les  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:48:54am

A mature society is one where the act of rape (regardless of the age of the victim) is seen as morally indistinguishable from an lethal attack by a wild animal and is dealt with as such.

115 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:48:55am

re: #51 buzzsawmonkey

Is it still an offense? I was under the impression that it had been
replaced by the penalties for smoking inside a public building.


No, those penalties are more severe.

116 Typicalwhitey  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:48:59am

re: #56 Eowyn2

generally kept in solitary with like minded and only allowed in the yard during off hours.


They have to request it to get it though.

And people wonder why, even though I live in a farming community, I keep such a close eye on my daughter.
I would not feel that 20 years would be justice for this crime.
I would imagine that the perp would have more to worry about from the kids dads/uncles/grandfathers than they would the court.

117 paxnhymn  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:49:06am

re: #79 WriterMom

My question wasn't actually directed to you, but if you insist on coming back to the topic of 'wasted organs', I'll say it again: you're giving me the creeps.


well, I'm not actually trying to give you the creeps, but it solves a societal issue of humanity while paying a societal debt. And I am not aware that the Chicoms are doing this, but if they are..hey! Even a broke clock is right twice a day...

118 WriterMom  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:49:07am

re: #99 Vergeltung

I haven't got a clue but it is SERIOUSLY creepy.

119 ec marm  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:49:16am

If you notice, the vote of 5-4 in this case is repeating a lot in Supreme Court decisions. The conservatives justices are in the minority.
One very strong reason not to stay home, or throw your vote away on some fringe candidate in November.
Lecture over, free beer!

120 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:49:33am
121 Golem Akbar  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:49:43am

re: #97 Eowyn2

people without children to protect

Excellent point. Many liberals prefer childlessness. Liberal's society doesn't have to protect children, and will treat adults like children.

122 calvin coolidge  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:49:45am

Unfortunately, children don't vote, so the politicians could care less. That's not a "maturing" society.... unless "maturing" means a candy ass, whining, bleeding heart, mindless, idiotic, self-centered, moonbatish, thoughtless, brainless, careless, clueless, narcissistic society.

123 wolfie  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:50:09am

re: #33 buzzsawmonkey

Opposing the armed forces, which exist to inflict capital punishment upon the enemies of the country, is only a short step away from this, it seems.

A society that categorically takes the death penalty off the table is a society that has declared it will not defend itself.
If it is wrong under any circumstances for the state to kill, it is wrong for the state to ask its citizens to kill on its behalf.

124 lawhawk  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:50:22am

If anything, this term of the US Supreme Court should provide the GOP with a wealth of gems on which to launch ad campaigns slamming the liberal wing of the court, and the candidate who would push to add to that wing.

The problem for the GOP is that McCain has made a habit of going against the GOP on the issue of judges, though his most recent statements have him seeking out originalists along the lines of Alito, Roberts, Scalia, and Thomas.

Obama will have no such restrictions - he would love to stock the court with Ginsberg types.

125 coquimbojoe  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:50:33am

re: #98 sadhu

Abacos

Nice. I was thinking Chile or Argentina.... Mountains, snow, palms, vines....

126 Cognito  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:50:48am

re: #77 sadhu

on your dime, not mine

Conventional wisdom is, actually, that it costs more to execute someone than to imprison him for life.

127 coquimbojoe  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:50:59am

re: #107 sadhu

oops - Abacos was the old one - that one is from Napa valley looking east after a dusting of snow

That makes sense too

128 Vergeltung  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:50:59am

re: #101 Cognito

exactly. the sex freaks are compulsive recidivists, that cannot, at least to date, be cured.

129 Ben Hur  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:51:00am

re: #122 calvin coolidge

Unfortunately, children don't vote, so the politicians could care less. That's not a "maturing" society.... unless "maturing" means a candy ass, whining, bleeding heart, mindless, idiotic, self-centered, moonbatish, thoughtless, brainless, careless, clueless, narcissistic society.


It's the "we should know better" arguement that's often used by vegans.

130 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:51:19am

re: #126 Cognito

That only means that one needs to change how one is executed....not end executions all together.

131 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:51:20am

re: #66 bosforus

that's too bad

I've nown of one case where the other prisoners managed to get to a child rapist/murderer after 8 yrs. Evidently those guys in prison have nothing to do but be patient and wait it out.

132 itellu3times  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:51:22am

Obama to get Hanuman idol

Obama busy in the run-up to the US presidential polls, a group of well-wishers in the capital have decided to send him a symbol of his lucky charm, Lord Hanuman, to help him emerge victorious.

Obama's representative Carolyn Sauvage-Mar on Tuesday received a gold-plated two-feet-high idol which she will pass it on to the Obama after it is sanctified.

The idol is being presented to Obama as he is reported to be a Lord Hanuman devotee and carries with him a locket of the monkey god along with other good luck charms.


[Link: images.google.com...]

133 Spiny Norman  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:51:27am

re: #122 calvin coolidge

Unfortunately, children don't vote, so the politicians could care less. That's not a "maturing" society.... unless "maturing" means a candy ass, whining, bleeding heart, mindless, idiotic, self-centered, moonbatish, thoughtless, brainless, careless, clueless, narcissistic society.

Do you mean like France?

134 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:52:04am
135 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:52:07am

re: #132 itellu3times

The Messiah is an Idol-Worshipper?

136 Vergeltung  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:52:15am

re: #103 Golem Akbar

Funny how he uses the word "decency." A decent society will punish the murderer with death. Child rapists don't deserve any consideration, either, by a decent society.

I say that all the time; a truly civilized society would dispose of these beats quickly and effectively. a truly civilized society protects its good citizens.

137 madisonsfriend  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:52:19am

re: #131 Eowyn2

Was Jeffrey Dahmer killed in prison by another inmate- while Jeffy was cleaning the library or chapel or something?

138 akak  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:52:29am
FBI Cracks Cross-Country
Child Prostitution Ring

-Fox


Supreme Court: No Death Penalty for Child Rape

Guess arresting the Islamic polygamists would be asking too much!

139 WriterMom  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:52:33am

re: #117 paxnhymn

OK. I'm gonna spell this out for you slowly:

It's quite well known that the Chinese Communist harvest the organs of dissidents and they are harvested and sold. It's a reprehensible practise that would have made the Nazis, like Mengele , proud. And you are saying that hey-they are actually right.

I suspect that with attitudes like that-you might not be around LGF for long.

As for me-you're in scrollover country from now on.

140 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:52:41am

re: #116 Typicalwhitey

They have to request it to get it though.

And people wonder why, even though I live in a farming community, I keep such a close eye on my daughter.
I would not feel that 20 years would be justice for this crime.
I would imagine that the perp would have more to worry about from the kids dads/uncles/grandfathers than they would the court.


dont forget moms, sisters, brothers, cousins. My son states that he would rather have his uncles really angry at him than have his aunts pissed off.

141 Tumulus11  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:52:48am
'As for the case at hand, Juliet L. Clark, an assistant district attorney from Gretna, La., countered that Mr. [Patrick] Kennedy, who weighs 300 pounds, had committed “a very savage rape” that caused serious injuries to his victim.' [his 8-year-old stepdaughter]


. This particular crime cries out for the death penalty.

142 wolfie  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:52:56am

re: #51 buzzsawmonkey

Is it still an offense? I was under the impression that it had been replaced by the penalties for smoking inside a public building.

I believe the penalties for smoking are far more severe ..or at least far more likely to be inflicted....than the ones for treason.
I am serious.

143 Cognito  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:52:57am

re: #130 WrathofG-d

That only means that one needs to change how one is executed....not end executions all together.

I didn't advocate that. Just speaking to the matter of the 'dime,' as he or she put it.

144 Milk Toast Intolerant  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:53:03am

I actually heard Pastor John Hagee preached about praying for the right judges to occupy our courts. He pointed to some references in the Bible and said that having just and fair-minded judges are more important than having the right politicians to lead us. I believe he's right. Given the two very stupid rulings that grant constitutional rights to foreign terrorists and sparing child rapists from the death penalty, it's pretty clear we are one justice shy of a just and fair Supreme Court. With those five liberal justices, how can we as a nation protect our people from foreign terrorists without them tying our soldiers' hands, and how can we protect the most innocent and helpless among us - that being our children - if we don't eradicate the animals who want to rape them?

145 Iron Fist  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:53:07am

re: #111 Vergeltung,

2 words: glass knife.

146 Golem Akbar  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:53:09am

re: #123 wolfie

A society that categorically takes the death penalty off the table is a society that has declared it will not defend itself.
If it is wrong under any circumstances for the state to kill, it is wrong for the state to ask its citizens to kill on its behalf.

Upding-a-rama!

147 coquimbojoe  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:53:15am

re: #126 Cognito

Conventional wisdom is, actually, that it costs more to execute someone than to imprison him for life.

Conventional wisdom is known to be wrong. I am very squeamish of the death penalty (as I inartfully posted above) but if it weren't for all the long drawn out appeals it would probably be far less expensive. I don't care for the death penalty, but the inordinate (in my opinion) amount of appeals are the problem.

148 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:53:16am

re: #94 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

If someone rapes my kids and I find him [deleted]

Remember back in the 80s there was a case where a karate instructor kidnapped and raped two (I think) young boys who were in his dojo. He was eventually arrested, and extradited from I don't remember which State back to I don't remember which State, where the crime had occurred. Upon arriving at the airport, accompanied by deputies, he was being brought to a waiting transport, when the boys' father, who had been waiting for him (pretending to be making a call at a bank of payphones in the terminal), walked up and shot the creep dead. In full view of lots of witnesses, and captured on tape by news crews.

The father was charged with 1st degree murder. And was... acquitted. IIRC, they interviewed some of the jurors afterwards, and their attitude basically was, "he did the right thing, we were not going to send him to prison, period."

149 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:53:25am

re: #130 WrathofG-d

That only means that one needs to change how one is executed....not end executions all together.

Rope and a tree has got to be cheaper than lethal injection.

150 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:53:38am
151 Liechtentrager  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:53:51am

I strongly recommend everyone have a read through the opinion itself (here). It is basically another instance of the SCOTUS interpreting what the national consensus is, without any basis in fact. It's basically their opinion of what "proportional" punishment is that counts. It is incredibly disturbing how J. Kennedy can describe the actual trauma suffered by the victim (13 years old at the time of her rape) and then spout on about "evolving standards of decency" in relation to the rapist.

Also, make sure to read Alito's dissent, which eviscerates Kennedy's argument, A to Z.

152 debutaunt  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:54:04am

re: #111 Vergeltung

2 words: Metal Detector.

A mental detector would be handy.

153 Steffan  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:54:04am

re: #49 WriterMom

What do you think is the right punishment?

Turn the scumbag over to the kid's family for a couple of hours. Let them have a locked, soundproof room with a concrete floor and a drain in the floor, so you can use a hose to clean the place after they're done.

We would have to be a bit creative with the death certificate, though. "Moths" are probably not a valid cause of death.

154 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:54:04am

re: #137 madisonsfriend

Was Jeffrey Dahmer killed in prison by another inmate- while Jeffy was cleaning the library or chapel or something?

Yes, while Dahmer was cleaning the bathroom.

155 seekeroftruth  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:54:11am

re: #124 lawhawk

Didn't McCain say that Fred Thompson would be heading up the judges selection for him? That would, hopefully, keep McCain on track.

156 Alouette  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:54:25am

re: #120 buzzsawmonkey

Beheading was still common; the guillotine, invented for the purpose of removing human error from the process of beheading in order to make it less cruel, had a very busy time of it in France.

The guillotine, while quite messy, is still the most humane method of execution known. The nerve endings are severed before a pain signal can be received by the brain.

157 David Simon  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:54:26am
Justice Kennedy, while in no way minimizing the heinous nature of child rape, wrote that executing someone for that crime, assuming that the victim was not killed, violates the Eighth Amendment’s ban on cruel and unusual punishment

Huh? Either the death penalty is cruel and unusual or it isn't.

(BTW, nice bit of editorializing by the Times.)

158 The Other Les  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:54:29am
“The death penalty is not a proportional punishment for the rape of a child,”


Could someone tell me where in the Constitution is it declared that a punishment is supposed to be proportional to a violent crime?

I don't recall reading any such passage the last time I read my copy of that document.

159 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:54:52am

re: #40 Eowyn2

Dear Surviving Child-Rape Victim:

We are very sorry to inform you that with good behavior the man (or woman) who repeatedly raped you will be eligible for parole in 20 years. Since you will be in your childbearing years, we strongly suggest that you change your name because the scum bag has repeatedly informed friends and relatives that he cant wait to get out and visit more torture on your children.

I'm wondering if the victim in this case will even be able to have children.

A graphic description of her injuries:

L. H. was transported to the Children’s Hospital. An expert in pediatric forensic medicine testified that L. H.’s injuries were the most severe he had seen from a sexual assault in his four years of practice. A laceration to the left wall of the vagina had separated her cervix from the back of her vagina, causing her rectum to protrude into the vaginal structure. Her entire perineum was torn from the posterior fourchette to the anus. The injuries required emergency surgery
160 Dainn  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:54:52am

I personally think that the death penalty is too harsh a crime for rape, even of a child. I'm ambivolent about the death penalty anyways, but I have voted for it when it came up on our ballot here in CA, and would likely do so again if I had to.

The death penalty always seemed an easy way out for the worst losers. Life in prison seems a harsher punishment than a few years pondering death, and a few minutes of IV drugs.

That said, if Louisanna and Texas can pass the death penalty for such a crime, they can pass life without parole. Lets see that happen.

Also, if your state doesn't have it, push to have Jessica's Law passed. And if you don't have it, ger your state to post Amber Alerts on traffic signs. We do that in CA with some success. And lastly, check your state's age of consent and see if it is too low.

This decision has a miniscule effect on justice system. Those things above are alot more important, IMHO.

161 coquimbojoe  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:55:11am

re: #154 Honorary Yooper

Yes, while Dahmer was cleaning the bathroom.

There is some cosmic justice, occasionally.

162 Ojoe  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:55:13am

“When the law punishes by death, it risks its own sudden descent into brutality makes absolutely certain that the criminal can never commit another crime, transgressing the constitutional commitment to decency and restraint,” Justice Kennedy Ojoe wrote.

/common sense mode off.

163 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:55:18am

re: #145 Iron Fist

Although I agree that something horrible should be done to anyone that rapes, let alone a child, discussing our violence fantasies here on LGF, is probably not appropriate.

Jumst my Humble O.

164 Thanos  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:55:22am

I'm for guaranteed lifetime incarceration without separation from the main inmate population. Evil has consequences.

I'm thinking that the Supes should have dodged this one until more cases and precedent had been set by the states with these laws. By rulling now this way, they've interupted one of the great things about this country. Each state is a separate laboratory for generating laws, and the outcomes of each experiment in law take time to see what the best legislation is; in this case the Supes cut in line too fast.

165 madisonsfriend  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:55:47am

re: #148 Occasional Reader

Remember back in the 80s there was a case where a karate instructor kidnapped and raped two (I think) young boys who were in his dojo. He was eventually arrested, and extradited from I don't remember which State back to I don't remember which State, where the crime had occurred. Upon arriving at the airport, accompanied by deputies, he was being brought to a waiting transport, when the boys' father, who had been waiting for him (pretending to be making a call at a bank of payphones in the terminal), walked up and shot the creep dead. In full view of lots of witnesses, and captured on tape by news crews.

I remember- wasn't it in Louisiana? I cheered the dad!

166 lawhawk  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:55:51am

re: #158 The Other Les

It's a penumbra and emanation. /

167 BuddyG  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:55:57am

re: #96 Land Shark

anyone who would rape a child is someone the world can do without


Yup

168 jackflash  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:56:01am

re: #91 Occasional Reader

169 Cognito  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:56:09am

re: #163 WrathofG-d

Seconded.

170 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:56:20am

re: #149 Honorary Yooper

Its not the lethal injection that costs so much but the "guilt" behavior we have included in the death row process. (meals, treatement, medical, appeals, etc.)

171 Golem Akbar  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:56:28am

re: #142 wolfie

I believe the penalties for smoking are far more severe ..or at least far more likely to be inflicted....than the ones for treason.
I am serious.


I believe liberals would impose the death penalty on smokers, if they could, so maybe they do believe in capital punishment. [btw, I'm not a smoker, either]

172 FlakMusic  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:56:36am

Thanks for another excellent decision, Justice Kennedy.

When unlawful enemy combatants rape our children, we'll all be able to hold our heads high knowing that we're better and more highly evolved than they are.

We'll have irreparably damaged children, courts and prison systems collapsing under the weight of a surplus of foreign Islamists and domestic sociopaths, but we'll know that we're better people.

Thank you Justice Kennedy. Thank you.

173 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:56:46am
174 Lawrence Schmerel  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:56:47am

Even if you think that the death penalty is inappropriate for child rapists (which I don't), how could you fail to see that Justice Kennedy is reading into the Constitution requirements that are not written there?

"Evolving standards of decency that mark the progress of a maturing society?" He is just making up Constitutional requirements to suit his own policy preferences.

The Supreme Court is gradually seizing power from the people to whom that power belongs.

175 The Other Les  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:56:51am

re: #117 paxnhymn

well, I'm not actually trying to give you the creeps, but it solves a societal issue of humanity while paying a societal debt. And I am not aware that the Chicoms are doing this, but if they are..hey! Even a broke clock is right twice a day...

If the Chicoms are executing rapists it's not because they are right on occasion. It's because rape is harmful to their hominid livestock.

176 Know Your Enemy  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:56:52am

re: #97 Eowyn2

people without children to protect

Exactly. What's more, the death penalty is supposed to be a deterrent; not a proportional act of revenge.

177 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:56:54am

re: #137 madisonsfriend

Was Jeffrey Dahmer killed in prison by another inmate- while Jeffy was cleaning the library or chapel or something?

Yep. And IIRC, the families of Dahmer's victims had been getting anonymous letters postmarked from the prison (or hospital for the criminally insane, I believe) for many months, to the effect of, "don't worry, we're going to take care of this."

178 WriterMom  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:57:01am

re: #164 Thanos

Evil has consequences.

Perfect.

179 Big_Iron[deleted]  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:57:18am
180 Vergeltung  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:57:29am

re: #145 Iron Fist

,

2 words: glass knife.

sweet! :)

181 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:57:38am

re: #137 madisonsfriend

Was Jeffrey Dahmer killed in prison by another inmate- while Jeffy was cleaning the library or chapel or something?

Not sure but he was impaled on a broomstick and skull smashed.

182 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:57:53am
183 Typicalwhitey  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:57:54am

re: #140 Eowyn2

dont forget moms, sisters, brothers, cousins. My son states that he would rather have his uncles really angry at him than have his aunts pissed off.


You know as a mom, I don't know how I could contain the rage that would overtake me.
And taking the law into my own hands would probably result in a longer sentence than the perp would get.

I would have to remember that she would be way better off with me in her life than me doing life.
But, oh how hard that would be!

184 paxnhymn  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:58:11am

re: #99 Vergeltung

is that guy an undertaker or something? a necrophiliac? seems alful comfy with creppy stuff. (shivers)


nope. 12 year Flight Medic ...7 Year ICU nurse (neurotruama) now in the medical equipment industry. I've seen more death in 20 years than most people ever do, and some of it is without merit. Some are the very age group that we're talking about here. I am very practical. Don't waste much needed organs. period.

185 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:58:33am

re: #171 Golem Akbar

I believe liberals would impose the death penalty on smokers, if they could, so maybe they do believe in capital punishment. [btw, I'm not a smoker, either]

If they want smokers to die - then let them smoke!

186 kywrite  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:58:35am

Guys, I was a victim (5 yrs, from ages 8-13), and I think the court made the right choice.

Not because it is a just decision. Nothing can give me back those years or the pain I've dealt with since. No punishment could be just.

Rather, it was the right choice because life, for me, is better than death. If a molester knows that he'll be killed if the child talks, what is stopping him from killing the child?

Brand them, implant GPAs, castrate them chemically and physically. But don't give them another reason to kill a child by promising them death if their main witness, the child, speaks out. In essence, it becomes another tool they can use to control the child, rather than a just and equitable punishment.

(though I rather liked the rape-them-with-a-blunt-object suggestion. Add splinters, from me.)

187 Ben Hur  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:58:38am

Proportionate punishment?

RAPE.

188 ronaldusmagnus  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:58:40am

The majority argues that since the child was not killed, it is unconstitutional to kill the rapist.

So, it follows:

Somebody can rape 10 kids and not be executed, but if he commits epsionage and treason, he can be executed.

Further, I have to ask the woman I know (an attorney) whose birth was the product of a rape: "Do you agree with the Supreme Court majority, who say it's O.K. to kill babies in the womb who are conceived in rape, but the man who raped your mother cannot be killed."

189 Vergeltung  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:58:47am

re: #148 Occasional Reader

Remember back in the 80s there was a case where a karate instructor kidnapped and raped two (I think) young boys who were in his dojo. He was eventually arrested, and extradited from I don't remember which State back to I don't remember which State, where the crime had occurred. Upon arriving at the airport, accompanied by deputies, he was being brought to a waiting transport, when the boys' father, who had been waiting for him (pretending to be making a call at a bank of payphones in the terminal), walked up and shot the creep dead. In full view of lots of witnesses, and captured on tape by news crews.
The father was charged with 1st degree murder. And was... acquitted. IIRC, they interviewed some of the jurors afterwards, and their attitude basically was, "he did the right thing, we were not going to send him to prison, period."

I love stories like that.......

190 madisonsfriend  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:58:48am

re: #176 Know Your Enemy

Exactly. What's more, the death penalty is supposed to be a deterrent; not a proportional act of revenge.


I always hope people understand that the death penalty does not deter other criminals(which people give as a reason not to have it)- but it sure as hell stops the guy it kills.

191 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:58:51am

re: #100 jcm

Anyone still think holding the nose and pulling the lever for McCain doesn't matter?

BHO you'll get a Lynne Stewart clone on the court.

With McCain the worst will be a centrist.

I'd actually be pleased with a replacement O'Connor.

192 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:58:56am

re: #149 Honorary Yooper

Rope and a tree has got to be cheaper than lethal injection.

The cost of the death penalty that Cognito alluded to has to do with the legal appeals process, not the actual cost outlay for the execution method itself. (Of course, that raises another question... but surely we need SOME sort of appeals process for death penalty cases, right?)

193 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:59:05am
194 jackflash  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:59:05am

re: #91 Occasional Reader

re: #91 Occasional Reader

The thing is, that observation is irrelevant to an 8th Amendment argument. That's something for lawmakers to ponder, not judges.

I agree that this is a policy issue and not an 8th Amendment argument. Legislatures should do their jobs, but they don't and increasingly the courts implent public policy because who else is going to do it? Perverse and sticky. (The way I like 'em)

195 Cognito  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:59:07am

Some of you guys are getting creepy, with talk of glass knives and hemp rope and such nonsense.

This is a complicated issue with serious ramifications. Not a doodle on an adolescent boy's TrapperKeeper.

196 doppelganglander  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:59:18am

re: #63 Honorary Yooper

Problem is, a large number of them already murder the child as well in an attempt to eliminate the witness. That's where forensics comes in and nails his (her) ass to the wall.

Some do, sure. I don't have the latest FBI crime statistics at hand, but I believe most child victims are assaulted by someone they know (stepdad, mom's boyfriend, etc.). Those people have all the more reason to eliminate a witness who knows them personally, and yet they seldom do.

For the record, I am pro-death penalty.

197 rockman  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:59:40am

Inmates establish their own pecking order in the prisons. Child rapists are at the bottom of the heap. It should be hell for them, with any luck.

198 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:59:51am

re: #176 Know Your Enemy

Exactly. What's more, the death penalty is supposed to be a deterrent; not a proportional act of revenge.

Actually, "retribution" is a recognized, if oft-debated, grounds for criminal punishment in general, and the death penalty in particular.

199 Golem Akbar  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 11:59:52am

re: #185 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

If they want smokers to die - then let them smoke!


And let them eat fatty foods, too.

Hey, that's not a bad idea..
[No, I'm trying to lose those extra pounds...]

200 Liechtentrager  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:00:06pm

re: #151 Liechtentrager

Correction: 8 years old.

201 madisonsfriend  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:00:36pm

re: #183 Typicalwhitey

You know as a mom, I don't know how I could contain the rage that would overtake me.
And taking the law into my own hands would probably result in a longer sentence than the perp would get.

I would have to remember that she would be way better off with me in her life than me doing life.
But, oh how hard that would be!


I always thought that my own reputation as an extremely hardworking, contributing member (in many ways) of society would get me a light or no sentence.

202 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:00:43pm
203 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:00:46pm

re: #193 buzzsawmonkey

Got news for you; you die eventually whether you smoke or not.

Not if Obama gets elected - he'll solve this whole "death" thing once & for all!

204 Dr. Shalit  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:00:51pm

Words have meanings and consequences. The Eighth Amendment is a ban on "Cruel AND Unusual Punishment" - Not necessarily Cruel Punishment, Not necessarily Unusual Punishment, and certainly NOT Cruel OR Unusual Punishment. With a bit of luck, some future Supreme Court will "GET IT."

-S-

205 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:01:02pm

re: #148 Occasional Reader

Remember back in the 80s there was a case where a karate instructor kidnapped and raped two (I think) young boys who were in his dojo. He was eventually arrested, and extradited from I don't remember which State back to I don't remember which State, where the crime had occurred. Upon arriving at the airport, accompanied by deputies, he was being brought to a waiting transport, when the boys' father, who had been waiting for him (pretending to be making a call at a bank of payphones in the terminal), walked up and shot the creep dead. In full view of lots of witnesses, and captured on tape by news crews.

The father was charged with 1st degree murder. And was... acquitted. IIRC, they interviewed some of the jurors afterwards, and their attitude basically was, "he did the right thing, we were not going to send him to prison, period."

Wyoming. I remember it well. they even have footage of him coming away from the phone bank and shooting the guy then dropping his gun and raising his arms in surrender.

206 Golem Akbar  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:01:16pm

re: #193 buzzsawmonkey

Got news for you; you die eventually whether you smoke or not.

I plan to live forever. So far, so good.

207 The Other Les  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:01:20pm

re: #166 lawhawk

It's a penumbra and emanation. /

Euwwwww! Spooky!

208 paxnhymn  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:01:25pm

re: #175 The Other Les

If the Chicoms are executing rapists it's not because they are right on occasion. It's because rape is harmful to their hominid livestock.


nono. we were talking on another thread about my advocacy to harvest convicted felons organs instead of killing them by lethal injection, etc.

209 ec marm  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:01:27pm

re: #159 reine.de.tout
I'm guessing, from the description of the injuries, that it was not vaginal rape of the young girl? To cause injuries that severe, who can not think that act is not homicidal?

210 FlakMusic  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:02:03pm

re: #154 Honorary Yooper

Yes, while Dahmer was cleaning the bathroom.

So, I guess the unintended consequence is to spare the offender the ordeal of lethal injection so that they can receive something really cruel and unusual from their (less highly evolved) fellow inmates in prison.

211 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:02:21pm
212 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:02:53pm
213 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:02:56pm

re: #183 Typicalwhitey

You know as a mom, I don't know how I could contain the rage that would overtake me.
And taking the law into my own hands would probably result in a longer sentence than the perp would get.

I would have to remember that she would be way better off with me in her life than me doing life.
But, oh how hard that would be!

Welllllllll, in sooooome families, it is an unwritten, unsaid pact taht the kids would be taken care of no matter what.

214 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:02:57pm

Would eye for an eye in a rape situation be too "cruel & unusual"?

~Wrath votes for no.

215 itellu3times  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:02:59pm

OT: Fed did nothing.

The Federal Reserve left interest rates alone Wednesday as expected, and noted that inflation risks have escalated, while downside risks to growth have diminished somewhat, even as the housing and labor markets have continued to soften.
Market watchers got more or less what they expected from the statement, which keeps the key short-term federal funds rate at 2.00% and did little to indicate tighter monetary policy is imminent.

Only Richard Fisher, president of the Dallas Fed, voted against the decision, preferring an increase to the fed funds rate.

216 csa945  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:03:10pm

re: #7 WrathofG-d

Upon what basis (if not religious) does one decide that only murder is worthy of the death penalty?

It's based upon a misconstruance of the clause in the Constitution prohibiting "cruel and unusual punishment." Even though when it was written, the clause prevented only certain modes of punishment (breaking over the rack, for example), but allowed others, regardless of what the legislature deemed was worthy of execution.

Hence, if it was constitutional to hang someone for mass murder, it was equally constitutional to hang them for spitting on the sidewalk.

Somewhere along the line (probably the Warren Court), the SCOTUS decided that "cruel and unusual punishment" dealt with proportionality as well as general mode of punishment.

Personally I'm largely opposed to the death penalty -- except in cases of crimes against humanity and the like, such as the laws in Israel and many Latin American countries -- if for no other reason that I don't like our company in the top 4 executing countries in the world: Saudi Arabia, Iran and the PRC.

That said, the Court's decision was dead wrong on its interpretation of the Constitution. If lethal injection is okay for Timothy McVeigh by the Constitution, it's okay for a child-rapist as well.

217 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:03:23pm

re: #186 kywrite

I'm so sorry to hear about what happened to you.


At the same time, I can't support the idea of "we (society) should permit/encourage these felons to be raped/tortured in prison". I'd support the death penalty for them, long before anything like that.

218 kywrite  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:03:41pm

re: #59 Occasional Reader

Exactly. I guarantee you, my life is an affirmation of myself in spite of what I suffered, not a daily reliving of a victimhood thrust upon me. That's liberaltalk, that is. Don't victiimize me, darn it. I ain't one.

/though if anyone did it to my kids or my nieces and nephews, well, let's just say no judge or jury would be required. I have pretty good aim.

219 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:03:52pm
220 ArmyWife  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:04:00pm

re: #45 jackflash

I understand this point, but this sort of reasoning is beyond the scope of what was before the Court. The Court is there to answer if this is cruel and unusual punishment, not take into account what may or may not happen to the victim. Those sorts of things are debated at the legislative level.

This point is what should be very, very scary to all of us - this court is making law, not interpreting it.

221 madisonsfriend  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:04:27pm

re: #217 Occasional Reader

At the same time, I can't support the idea of "we (society) should permit/encourage these felons to be raped/tortured in prison". I'd support the death penalty for them, long before anything like that.

I agree- that is why the death penalty should be given and then done-almost immediately.

222 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:04:42pm
223 Steffan  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:04:50pm

re: #117 paxnhymn

well, I'm not actually trying to give you the creeps, but it solves a societal issue of humanity while paying a societal debt. And I am not aware that the Chicoms are doing this, but if they are..hey! Even a broke clock is right twice a day...

Last I heard, the Chicoms are doing this. This is why their preferred method of execution has the condemned laying face down in a sandbox... one bullet to the back of the head. The organs are harvested and the family gets a bill for the expended round.

224 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:04:51pm

re: #216 csa945


You are correct. My reading of it is that it was against the method of execution, not reason for its use.

But what should I expect for a SCOTUS when they can find a pnumbra, a Commerce Clause, and a RIGHT to A-----.

225 Dianna  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:04:58pm

re: #132 itellu3times

How does he reconcile that with his Christianity?

226 Liechtentrager  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:04:58pm

re: #164 Thanos

That's close to the argument that Justice Alito uses in his dissent. He is basically saying that evolving societal mores may be swinging towards harsher penalties for crimes other than murder, but the Court's opinion stops that evolution in its tracks.

227 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:05:11pm

re: #209 ec marm

I'm guessing, from the description of the injuries, that it was not vaginal rape of the young girl? To cause injuries that severe, who can not think that act is not homicidal?


It was the severe and grotesque extent of her injuries that caused the jury to want the death penalty in this case.

And here's a line from the decision, written about the rapist, not the child:


“Evolving standards of decency must embrace and express respect for the dignity of the person[.]”
228 Know Your Enemy  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:05:30pm

re: #222 taxfreekiller

this court is the child of the rape of America by the msm

Methinks TFK has a theme going...

229 deacon  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:05:36pm

I was listening to Rush today, and he had a police officer call in and say that this was a good idea because his concern was that if someone knew they would get the death penalty for child rape, they might be more likely to kill the child to pervent the child from testifying against them.

Makes sense.

230 Golem Akbar  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:05:39pm

re: #211 buzzsawmonkey

Listen to Cindy Sheehan. It won't make you live longer, but it will seem like forever.


Right, but looking at her could scare you to death!

231 FlakMusic  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:05:46pm

re: #187 Ben Hur

re: #187 Ben Hur

Proportionate punishment?

RAPE.

But the non-cruel and non-unusual kind.

232 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:05:53pm

I think I'm going to go do some real work now - things are getting kinda grim around here.

233 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:05:55pm

re: #225 Dianna

To paraphrase Obam'uh.

Would that be his Christianity or Jesus'

234 jill e  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:06:06pm

"Fairytales don't teach children to believe in dragons. Children already know there are dragons. Fairytales teach children that dragons can be slain."—GK Chesterton

235 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:06:41pm

re: #201 madisonsfriend

I always thought that my own reputation as an extremely hardworking, contributing member (in many ways) of society would get me a light or no sentence.

temporary insanity officer, i dont remember puting that thing in my purse, I've been on those drugs that make a person sleepwalk and it must have been done then.

236 Thanos  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:06:46pm

re: #195 Cognito

Some of you guys are getting creepy, with talk of glass knives and hemp rope and such nonsense.

This is a complicated issue with serious ramifications. Not a doodle on an adolescent boy's TrapperKeeper.

That's another argument against the decision as well - states know their communities, conventions, values and mores best. By ignoring the consequences of no death penalty where it's generally perceived to be fit punishment the ruling could be seen to encourage vigilantism. (is that a word?)

237 bosforus  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:06:48pm

re: #131 Eowyn2

I've nown of one case where the other prisoners managed to get to a child rapist/murderer after 8 yrs. Evidently those guys in prison have nothing to do but be patient and wait it out.

Haven't they seen Shawshank Redemption?

238 Maine's Michael  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:07:01pm

re: #111 Vergeltung

No metal detectors in courtrooms around here.

Additionally, fists, feet, fingernails and teeth.

Bamboo blowgun with curare darts, or something faster.

I would get awfully creative.

239 RTLM  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:07:02pm

Death row I believe is a very sheltered block. Those prisoners are kept away from others.
Get all the child rapiists out of death row and let them mix with the general population.

(And experience some of their own medicine)

240 Cap'n DOC  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:07:04pm

Someone said once "Justice must not only be done, but must also seem to be done". Don't hold my feet to the fire simply because I can't remember who said it.

I also don't know how long the act takes to reach its conclusion (child rape), but I have some idea what the cost is to society to keep the rapist incarcerated for a year - roughly $24K. Someone also said that to harm a little one, better that they tie a millstone about their neck and cast themselves into the sea. I paraphrase, of course.

That sounds like the equivalent of the death penalty to me.

241 Iron Fist  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:07:06pm

re: #195 Cognito,

Someone raised the practical problem of a metal detector. I simply gave one solution to the problem. A little practical advice, is all.

242 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:07:27pm

Maybe I'm wired wrong , maybe not!
I'd have no compuntion whatsoever to give them time to
beg forgiveness from the Creator.
Course I would also need forgiveness!

243 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:07:36pm
244 kywrite  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:07:38pm

re: #213 Eowyn2

Indeed. Sometimes not unspoken, but openly discussed.

245 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:08:02pm

re: #214 WrathofG-d

Would eye for an eye in a rape situation be too "cruel & unusual"?

~Wrath votes for no.

There is at least one underground women's group who will arrange for a rapist to be raped. From what I understand, they dont look for a jury of 12 peers.

246 sifty  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:08:12pm

Kennedy and Ruth Buzzy Gin-bird have apparently started a scorched-earth policy before fading away to the home.

I expect lots more damage like this. The Supreme Court will take a generation to fix.

247 Cognito  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:08:14pm

re: #236 Thanos

That's another argument against the decision as well - states know their communities, conventions, values and mores best. By ignoring the consequences of no death penalty where it's generally perceived to be fit punishment the ruling could be seen to encourage vigilantism. (is that a word?)

That's no excuse, though. In America we make the laws, and so we are beholden to them.

If they are bad, we change them. We don't break them.

248 Windhorse  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:09:03pm

Anthony Kennedy.... Ronald Reagan would not approve of what you have become...

249 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:09:48pm

re: #245 Eowyn2

Very interesting. Although I am all for a rapist getting what he or she has done to others.....I would need to be sure that he or she actually was a rapist. I hope this organization ensures for this.

250 doppelganglander  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:10:04pm

re: #186 kywrite

I am so sorry about your terrible experience. Thanks for your perspective.

251 Vergeltung  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:10:05pm

re: #184 paxnhymn

nope. 12 year Flight Medic ...7 Year ICU nurse (neurotruama) now in the medical equipment industry. I've seen more death in 20 years than most people ever do, and some of it is without merit. Some are the very age group that we're talking about here. I am very practical. Don't waste much needed organs. period.

Dominus Vobiscum my son......

252 sifty  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:10:13pm

This guy should have definitely gotten the De La Croix Treatment from Green Mile.

IMO

253 wolfie  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:10:23pm

re: #186 kywrite

The court did NOT make the right choice, IMO.
It is not the business of the court to legislate.
You (and I, for that matter) might not agree with the Louisiana law, but that does not make it unconstitutional.

The people of Louisiana do not find the penalty to be "cruel and unusual," considering the severity of the crime. Indeed, I suspect that a majority of Americans would not find the death penalty unjust in this particular case. There is a community standard determining whether a penalty is cruel and unusual, and five high priests in black robes do not qualify as "the community."

254 Lizard by the Bay  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:10:38pm

Justice Kennedy: Reagan's biggest blunder.

255 Eowyn2  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:10:49pm

re: #227 reine.de.tout

was that Kennedy writing that?

I am going to write to him.

256 Maine's Michael  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:11:00pm

re: #247 Cognito

Fuck that.

What if they are bad laws, and you/we cannot change them?

Laws that go against your most basic moral code - and you have been wronged in the process?

I would gladly go to jail for the murder of my child's rapist.

I do not believe a jury would convict.

257 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:11:00pm
258 kywrite  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:12:20pm

re: #217 Occasional Reader

I didn't say that. I want chemical and physical castration for them before they are released (which they will be eventually, unfortunately), or branding, or some way they can be identified by parents of children so they cannot prey at will. I don't have too much sympathy for the "let them get on with their lives" crowd. They can work sanitation or cleaning septic tanks for the rest of their lives, IMO; they don't need to be working side by side with me. I might have a temporary psychological break if I found out about their crimes and that would be oh so terrible.

What happens in prison, stays in prison.

259 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:12:33pm
260 Thanos  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:14:35pm

re: #247 Cognito

That's no excuse, though. In America we make the laws, and so we are beholden to them.

If they are bad, we change them. We don't break them.

I agree, but needless to say everyone doesn't. With this ruling the court is devaluing the trust people have in overall justice in these cases. Thus we might see less respect for verdicts, as has amply been pointed out upthread, which could result in more instances of "I don't care, I'll take the consequences" summary justice...

261 acwgusa  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:14:36pm

If a "maturing" society decides that the rape of a child is not worth the death penalty, then I will remain immature, thank you.

262 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:15:50pm

re: #245 Eowyn2

There is at least one underground women's group who will arrange for a rapist to be raped. From what I understand, they dont look for a jury of 12 peers.

Can't say that I support that. Besides being... you know... illegal, it could also very easily be used for simple score-settling.

I knew a hyper-"feminist" in law school who argued that the definition of "rape" should include a situation in which the man (she always framed this in terms of men raping women) had a reasonable belief at the time that he had the woman's consent; but the woman says - after the fact - that really, deep down inside, she didn't consent. Even though she said "yes" at the time, well, she didn't mean it... so it was a rape, see?

Imagine what someone like that would do with with this Rape Revenge Vigilante group at her disposal.

263 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:17:05pm
"Justice Kennedy ... cruel and unusual punishment ...."

Cruel and unusual, Mr. Kennedy?

Hmmm. The English had something called drawing and quartering. Sounds appropriate to me for someone who violently (not statutory) rapes a child.

/sarc? Don't know. Maybe not.

264 loppyd  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:17:41pm

Good Afternoon Lizard Nation!

I have not read the full opinion, but this is troubling:

“the evolving standards of decency that mark the progress of a maturing society.”

How is that an interpretation of the US Constitution?

Did he site European case law as well?

Pathetic.

Whether you are for or against the death penalty we should all be concerned by the Court's recent decisions and how they came to them. (IMHO of course)

265 paxnhymn  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:17:53pm

re: #251 Vergeltung

Dominus Vobiscum my son......

thanks. he always is...

266 kywrite  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:19:51pm

re: #253 wolfie

That is a much better argument than the "he did a heinous thing, he should die." I agree totally with state's rights and therefore I have to agree with you.

It is, however, a foolish and short-thinking law for the Louisiana legislature to have passed. Some child predators will leave the state seeking cooler and more lenient climates. But the 90% who prey on children they have fathered or stepfathered will not be deterred from rape, and will be more likely to kill those children in the worst cases.

(The other bad thing about death sentences and child molesters -- it puts them in death row, protecting them from the -- er -- scorn of the general population. They need to experience that, IMO.

I sometimes have a soft spot for convicted criminals, thinking about that. They do not like child molesters, do they?)

267 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:20:40pm
268 markie  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:22:12pm

So, what's the majority trying to say, if nobody's killed, the kill penalty is off the table, ergo the punishment must be equivalent to the crime? So, assraping the guilty must be ok, as long as it occurs in a certified penal facility.

I'll provide the post hole digger.

269 jcm  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:24:59pm

Our society is a compact between individuals, essentially to respect each others life, liberty and property. Our society establish government to codify that respect via laws, law enforcement, judiciary, and penal system.

The question has two parts, reasonable punishment for the crime. And the need of society to protect itself from those who willfully violate the society compact.

First question:
Is the rape of a child by adult, or juvenile considered to be an adult a heinous enough personal crime to warrant the offender be deprived of their right to life and liberty?

Second question:
Is the rape of a child such a heinous violation of the society compact that society in order to defend itself has the right and obligation to deprive the offender of their right to life and liberty?

The two question taken together for the punishment of the offender, and defense of society, IHMO the death penalty is an appropriate.

270 FlakMusic  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:26:14pm

re: #264 loppyd

Good Afternoon Lizard Nation!

I have not read the full opinion, but this is troubling:

“the evolving standards of decency that mark the progress of a maturing society.”

How is that an interpretation of the US Constitution?

Did he site European case law as well?

Pathetic.

Whether you are for or against the death penalty we should all be concerned by the Court's recent decisions and how they came to them. (IMHO of course)

Shouldn't we be appointing justices who are capable of reaching an opinion based solely on the Constitution and precedent without needing to rely on the opinions of Euro-weenies?

This is like getting someone else to write your term paper.

271 Cygnus  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:26:27pm

re: #132 itellu3times

Obama to get Hanuman idol

[Link: images.google.com...]

His Molech idol will arrive the week after.

272 Crimsonfisted  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:28:18pm

Seems to me the lib judges are trying to get as many bad decisions in as they can before they retire.

273 haavamaal  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:29:04pm

So..........a someone rapes my daughter......since there is no justice....I wack the rapist....I get wacked by the state..........how wack!

I think they should carry another name other that Supreme Court "Justice".

There is no crime worse than child rape. The victim suffers forever and the associated behavioral affects are devastating. This is a joke!

274 just another four-letter word  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:30:32pm

Got here late, everybody - been a busy day at work.

Evolving maturity? More like DEvolving maturity. Societal norms, thanks to the mush-headed decisions of SCOTUS, has resulted in a coarsening of our culture. Soon, everything will be acceptable, which is just the way good ol' Stan would like it to be.

This drivel of "cruel and unusual punishment" is just exactly that - drivel. Punishment has to be unusual at the very least for it to be effective, and cruel is in the eye of the beholder(s). Personally, I think it's cruel to have to listen to the Hillbilly or the Obamanation, don't you? Once again, SCOTUS has led society at large down the path to destruction.

There are just some things "beyond the pale" that are worthy of the punishment of death.

JAFLW

275 A.W.  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:30:39pm

You should just skip kennedy's opinion and go to Alito's dissent. It is gentle, subtle and devastating.

This is an area of the law where the mask slips off and these justices reveal that they are not very interested in the law at all, but their own political preferences.

A mature society that respects dignity is one which protects children from sick bastards like this.

276 dsrtegl  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:30:56pm

re: #111 Vergeltung

2 words: Metal Detector.

All I'm saying is:

If someone does something like this to my child, the police'd better get to him before I do. If they do, they'd better watch the rooftops when he's transferred from place to place.

277 Cygnus  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:31:40pm

re: #96 Land Shark

Well said, man. I have to confess if I ever come across somebody raping a child and I have my .45 ACP handy that lowlife's getting the full 10 round clip. And if they arrest me for killing the scumbag I'm gonna be proud and loud. "Yeah, I put 10 bullets into that slime. Too bad the clip only held 10 rounds. That SOB will never rape a child again."

Sorry if I sound bloodthirsty, but anyone who would rape a child is someone the world can do without.

It's time to clean the gene pool.

278 loppyd  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:32:57pm

re: #270 FlakMusic

Shouldn't we be appointing justices who are capable of reaching an opinion based solely on the Constitution and precedent without needing to rely on the opinions of Euro-weenies?

This is like getting someone else to write your term paper.

You would think.

Buzzy Ginsberg is a big fan of citing European law in her decisions.

This article is quite timely - by Thomas Sowell and addresses some of the questions you raise.

Imitators

SNIP:


Some justices of the U.S. Supreme Court even seem to think that they should incorporate ideas from European laws in interpreting American laws.

Before we start imitating someone, we should first find out whether the results that they get are better than the results that we get. Across a very wide spectrum, the United States has been doing better than Europe for a very long time.

279 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:33:27pm

re: #96 Land Shark

I have to confess if I ever come across somebody raping a child and I have my .45 ACP handy that lowlife's getting the full 10 round clip.

I am absolutely shocked and dismayed by what you've written here.

It's a magazine, not a clip.

280 Cygnus  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:33:40pm

re: #156 Alouette

The guillotine, while quite messy, is still the most humane method of execution known. The nerve endings are severed before a pain signal can be received by the brain.

And in the days of yore, beheading was considered a more honorable death than hanging.

281 Throbert McGee  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:34:35pm

Speechless.

I'm often happy to defend the reasoning of the liberal SCOTUS members even when I disagree with their rulings, but not here.

As some have pointed out above, a few of the "slippery slope" concerns brought up by Kennedy and others in the majority have a little bit of merit -- but these "slippery slope" problems could be fixed by refining the state laws providing the death penalty for child rape, rather than by striking down such laws altogether.

An example of a "slippery slope" issue that comes to my mind -- I would strongly object to seeing Catholic priests who molest altar boys being prosecuted with "child rape" as a death-penalty offense.

Because although such priests are criminal lowlifes, the reality is that the minor victims in these cases are quite often sexually curious adolescent boys who may be able to participate willingly even if they cannot legally consent. In other words, the priests (usually) are predatory seducers of naive teens, but not "rapists"; and their victims are minors, but not necessarily "children," so in my thinking there's far too much legal gray area for the death penalty to be appropriate, even though the moral case against such priests is stark black-and-white.

And Alito's dissent was perfect.

282 A.W.  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:34:43pm

jafl

read alito's dissent. he tears Justice kennedy's flimsey reasoning apart. It is brilliant. And you will KNOW--not merely suspect, but know--that this was not a ruling based on the precedents, the constitution or anything else.

283 Ojoe  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:35:14pm

re: #275 A.W.

Yes, and ironically Kennedy's approach, by starting to abandon the duty of society to protect its innocent, leads not to 'maturity' but to barbarism.

284 debutaunt  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:36:02pm

re: #266 kywrite

That is a much better argument than the "he did a heinous thing, he should die." I agree totally with state's rights and therefore I have to agree with you.

It is, however, a foolish and short-thinking law for the Louisiana legislature to have passed. Some child predators will leave the state seeking cooler and more lenient climates. But the 90% who prey on children they have fathered or stepfathered will not be deterred from rape, and will be more likely to kill those children in the worst cases.

(The other bad thing about death sentences and child molesters -- it puts them in death row, protecting them from the -- er -- scorn of the general population. They need to experience that, IMO.

I sometimes have a soft spot for convicted criminals, thinking about that. They do not like child molesters, do they?)

I'm all for aggressive scorning.

285 GGMac  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:36:34pm

re: #101 Cognito

I've heard that argument, and I think it's flawed. I never said their lives are worthless; I said they suffer.

Humans have an enormous capacity to endure suffering. It may be one of the most remarkable things about us as creatures. But that doesn't lessen the pain; the monster who inflicts, say, sixty-eight years of anguish is no better than the monster who inflicts it for a moment.

I'm playing devil's advocate a bit, as I haven't sorted out my own feeling on the matter yet. But I will add this: I suspect many, many murders are one-time offenses. A woman, for instance, discovers her husband has been cheating, grabs a weapon and exacts her revenge.

But I suspect that a crime like child-rape is borne of a compulsion that doesn't stop at one. That compulsion is both the argument for and against the death penalty: the person is a liability to the human race, on one hand, and on the other hand he may be enslaved to a mental incapacity, which might mitigate the death penalty.

Like I said, I haven't worked it all out yet.


Regarding the "mental incapacity" canard - true mental incapacity in relation to crimes committed is so rare as to be non-existant. What is accepted by the "justice" system as mental incapacity is in truth "incapacity" posturing - i.e., a means to get off the hook - or the gas chamber, or the jail time.

If the one who has committed any crime attempts in any way to hide guilt, they have mental capacity.

The mentally incapacitated will not hide what they've done - ask them if they did the deed, and they'll simply say "yes".

So - except in EXTREMELY rare circumstances, "mental incapacity" is a crock.

286 paradox42  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:37:06pm

The punishment I favor for child rapists is complete sensory deprivation. Immerse them in a tank of body temperature liquid, feed them with IVs, and let them float until they die, cut off from everything.

287 Cygnus  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:38:11pm

re: #210 FlakMusic

So, I guess the unintended consequence is to spare the offender the ordeal of lethal injection so that they can receive something really cruel and unusual from their (less highly evolved) fellow inmates in prison.

The fellow inmates are more highly evolved. They know that child rape is completely disgusting and wrong.

288 xenon23  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:38:37pm

I have to support the court on this one. death penalty should be for murder only with treason as the only exception.
Mind you that I myself was raped as a child. I do not wish death on those that hurt me in that case.

289 Red_State_Envy  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:38:45pm

Tue May 20, 2008 - On CNN’s "The Situation Room" (5/8), Wolf Blitzer asked Barack Obama, "Are there members or justices right now upon whom you would model [your Supreme Court nominations], you would look at? Who do you like?" Obama answered, " think actually Justice Breyer, Justice Ginsburg are very sensible judges. I think that Justice Souter, who is a Republican appointee, is a sensible judge."

Obama as President will spell the death of the nation, via his Supreme Court appointees. For this reason alone, I will be forced to vote for McCain.

290 Throbert McGee  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:39:32pm

I can't believe no one has pointed out that one of the rapist-defendants (a 300-lb. man who thought it would be fun to climb on top of his 8-year-old stepdaughter) was surnamed Kennedy!

291 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:39:38pm

re: #284 debutaunt

I'm all for aggressive scorning.

Faces, names and conviction records upon large billboards would be nice.

292 Ojoe  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:39:57pm

re: #288 xenon23

If enough child rapists die, word will get out and fewer of these crimes will be committed

293 DoesNotMatter  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:40:15pm

Pfeh, not like that most of these vermin do not kill their victims.
And those that aren't: They're mingling with the general prison population whch is so understanding of their troubled childhood which shaped their course in life.
Might be more cost efficient that way, quicker too, maybe even sufficiently agonizing to make them have empathy for their victims.

*why do I wish to spell their "thier" ?

294 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:40:42pm

re: #288 xenon23

I have to support the court on this one. death penalty should be for murder only with treason as the only exception.

But the relevant question before the Court was - or should have been - does the Constitution require that?

295 Hard Right  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:41:48pm

I'm betting the farkers are cheering this decison. Scum of a feather....

296 sultan_knish  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:42:43pm

It's time we put serious limits on the power of the Supreme Court to go beyond the explicit limits of the Constitution, as opposed to reinterpreting it for modern times.

297 kulhwch  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:42:55pm
“When the law punishes by death, it risks its own sudden descent into brutality, transgressing the constitutional commitment to decency and restraint,” Justice Kennedy wrote.

What about the constitutional commitment to justice?

What about as a deterrent?  What about a promise against recidivism?  The death penalty works excellently in both cases.

Don't sass me about brutality, decency, and restraint; anyone who rapes a child waived his rights in regards to those subjects.

As a father I say, fine, they don't want to give them the death penalty, that's okay.  I'm willing to go to prison for the rest of my life to even the score, and I bet if I can't catch the perp and administer a suitable coup-de-grace, I can hire a thug in the joint who'll be glad to do it for me.  The state doesn't want to hand out ultimate punishment?  That's okay, I'm used to picking up the slack in what the state doesn't provide.

}:)     [Justice Kennedy is an idiot.]

298 xenon23  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:45:54pm

re: #292 Ojoe
Well what other non life taking crimes would you consider worthy of the death penalty?

299 vagabond trader  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:46:29pm

Any violence directed at children is heinous, but why stop there? At least mandatory LIFE for ALL rapists.No such thing as a one timer.

300 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:47:09pm
301 Ojoe  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:47:25pm

re: #298 xenon23

Hardly any.

Treason, but that's about it.

302 Throbert McGee  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:47:43pm

re: #286 paradox42

The punishment I favor for child rapists is complete sensory deprivation. Immerse them in a tank of body temperature liquid, feed them with IVs, and let them float until they die, cut off from everything.

Er... "Death by comfy womb?"

Seems a bit lenient, to me. And wouldn't there be a danger that the sensory deprivation would eventually send them into an altered mental state that they'd actually quite enjoy?

I mean, might as well add some THC (i.e., the active compound in marry-jew-wanna) to their IV drip while you're at it!

303 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:48:13pm
304 Blitherakt  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:48:16pm

I'm having a hard time deciding on how I feel about this decision. Some of the text (in particular the "evolving standards" line) is right out of the constant reinterpretation bull crap floated by the Left.

But I have a strong reaction against expanding the death penalty; in particular after seeing up-ticks in exoneration rates for innocent people wrongly incarcerated.

I'm not arguing that child rapists should be given compassion; far from it. Given the absurdity of the government lately moving from the smoking bans to foie gra to trans-fats, I can see a push for an ever-expanding death penalty. Small steps from baby-raping to molestation or domestic violence. The latter two being much harder to prove, in particular with the divorce rate and "repressed memory" stuff.

I really don't have a problem with offing proven child rapists. I'm truly frightened to see what we'll find around the bend once the "what's next" train gets moving.

305 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:48:59pm
306 xenon23  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:49:23pm

re: #294 Occasional Reader

Should-a could-a would-a

I don't remember any case where the founding fathers spoke on the death penalty for child rape. Do you?

307 Tupac23x  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:49:50pm

re: #53 lawhawk

Sorry lawhawk. I accidentally gave your comment a minus when I intended to give it a plus. Good post.

308 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:50:06pm
309 Ojoe  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:50:42pm

re: #303 taxfreekiller

If we are too enlightened, we will become much barbaric.

We will always be barbaric, the trick is to keep the barbarism small, and in the right places.

310 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:51:03pm

re: #306 xenon23

Should-a could-a would-a

I don't remember any case where the founding fathers spoke on the death penalty for child rape. Do you?

Not sure I see your point. If the Constitution is silent on the issue, the default position is: Then it's for the elected State legislature to decide.

311 Yashmak  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:51:06pm

I believe this was a just decision by the courts. Executing someone who hasn't taken a life isn't proportional punishment.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against the death penalty, but to be honest this is the first time I've ever heard of it being applied to a criminal who hasn't killed. I revile child rapists as much or more than your garden variety murderer. . .but I don't think the death penalty is the correct punishment.

Putting them in general population would be correct punishment. Inmates HATE child abusers. It would serve the double purpose of saving the taxpayers all the money that goes into endless appeals, as well as allowing the inmates to (unknowingly) provide a service to this nation.

312 xenon23  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:51:17pm

re: #301 Ojoe

Is that a list in you back pocket that you are hiding?

313 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:51:20pm
314 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:51:59pm
315 Ojoe  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:52:22pm

re: #312 xenon23

No.

I think these thoughts because I have children

316 paradox42  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:52:25pm

re: #302 Throbert McGee

The effects of isolation are devastating to the mind. Imagine a life without sensation of any kind. No sight, no hearing, never tasting food, never talking to anyone again, and being perfectly aware that you have a good 20 years of life left and no chance to end it. I couldn't think of a fate worse than that. Its living death.

317 Tenacious  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:53:39pm

Scary language used by Kennedy. That this country is still "maturing", he is signifying change over time. Eventually, this country will "mature" so as to not have the death penalty. Or any penalties. Ah yes, the living, always "maturing" Constitution.

318 xenon23  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:54:10pm

re: #310 Occasional Reader

Yes but the Supreme Court does have the last word. They can always re-word the law and run it back up the flag poll.

319 chukardog  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:54:15pm

what is the process for removing Supreme court justices? can they be impeached? after the GITMO ruling and now this, I think there is a strong case to be made that they are not protecting and upholding the constitution, but rather usurping it.
Now Im very concerend about the second amendment ruling coming down tomorrow.

320 vagabond trader  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:54:54pm

re: #291 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I always thought a large tattoo on the cheek would not only advertise the menace, but warn others of it.

321 loppyd  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:54:55pm

Now one could definitely argue for the death penalty in this case......

WOBURN - Neil Entwistle was found guilty today of shooting his wife and baby girl to death as they lay in their bed.

Psych! It's MA - no death penalty here. Although Mitt tried to get it passed every year while governor. I really miss Mitt.

322 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:55:03pm
323 nikis-knight  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:55:43pm

re: #152 debutaunt

A mental detector would be handy.

I believe if they had one at the supreme court, it would only go off four out of nine times.

324 Ojoe  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:55:52pm

re: #319 chukardog

The Constitution says that the Justices shall hold their Office during "good Behavior"

325 loppyd  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:56:05pm

re: #322 taxfreekiller

trouble is they are 100% narcissistic, being alone and wrong about every dam thing, they still love themselves, and love being with themselves

They love the accolades they receive from the leftists at cocktail parties and Europeans while traveling abroad.

326 A.W.  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:58:38pm

one of you hit on an interesting point...

Okay raise your hands and tell me who a worse person?

A man who forcibly rapes a little girl?

Or Benedict Arnold?

As a patriot, of course I consider Arnold to be scum, but still its not even a close call.

Now after today's decision, guess which one can be killed for his crimes?

Shouldn't that say something about when a crime deserves death? Instead of trying to guage whether we have evolved as a society, etc., put it up agaisnt that metric.

Again folks, read the Alito dissent. It is devastating to the other side.

327 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:58:39pm
328 xenon23  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 12:59:36pm

re: #315 Ojoe

I understand that. But if we make laws based on our emotions then we will start looking like the Liberals. I myself feed rather bad about having been molested when I was a child but I do not let that emotion from past hurt rule my thoughts on the law.

329 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:00:51pm

re: #255 Eowyn2

was that Kennedy writing that?

I am going to write to him.

I assume so. I got this from Andy McCarthy's item at "The Corner" at National Review:

Even if you agree with their bottom line, do Justice Kennedy and the justices in Kennedy v. Louisiana have a clue about how offensive it is to write this line in rationalizing why a man who has savagely raped his eight-year-old step-daughter should not be executed by the humane process of lethal objection:

"Evolving standards of decency must embrace and express respect for the dignity of the person[.]"

Link:
[Link: corner.nationalreview.com...]

330 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:00:52pm

re: #318 xenon23

Yes but the Supreme Court does have the last word.

They aren't supposed to be simply deciding based on simply whether they think the law is a good idea or not.
They're supposed to be basing it on whether the law is barred by the Constitution or not. Period.

331 Throbert McGee  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:01:41pm
*why do I wish to spell their "thier" ?

"I before E (except after C,
or when rhyming with way,
as in neighbor and sleigh.)"

"Their" actually falls under the "rhyming with way" rule, but the "r" at the end makes the near-rhyme much less obvious than in neighbor.

I always want to type "acheive," rather than the correct i-before-e spelling, because that c catches my eye and tricks my inner editor!

332 xenon23  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:04:16pm

re: #330 Occasional Reader

Can you cite a place in the constitution that would support the death penalty for child rape or any rape.

333 CommonCents  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:04:47pm

re: #95 JammieWearingFool

I'm afraid you may be right. At the very least the GOP needs to make sure the Democrats are on record supporting this.

I doubt any of these issue will even come up at the debates, if Obama even bothers to show up for one.

He has to at least attend to "vote present"

334 chingachgook  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:04:54pm

What the hell good does it do to stack the SC if they don't give us what we want? Listen damn-it..we need someone besides lawyer on that damn thing. Nothing says they have to have a law degree. Time to put Engineers and scientest and Doctor's, everyday people in that court. It's also time to start executing child molesters.

335 chingachgook  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:05:34pm

Anyone that would hurt a child doesn't deserve to live.

336 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:07:07pm

re: #332 xenon23

Can you cite a place in the constitution that would support the death penalty for child rape or any rape.

No, nor can I cite a place in the Consititution that would "support" the levying of a fine for jaywalking. That's not the point of the Constitution. It isn't supposed to be a mega-Civil/Criminal Code.

337 chingachgook  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:07:42pm

Maybe they are pedophiles protecting their own...

338 chingachgook  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:08:19pm

I'm mad as hell.....

339 kywrite  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:09:14pm

re: #234 jill e

"Fairytales don't teach children to believe in dragons. Children already know there are dragons. Fairytales teach children that dragons can be slain."—GK Chesterton

A VERY apt quote. I'll have to think about that one.

340 redheadredstate  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:10:38pm

As a victim of this crime I can tell you it leaves lasting scars. Part of who you are gets taken away from you and it takes years to get it back. Anyone who would victimize a child deserves death because I can bet you a dollar to a donut that they will do it again and the next time they might not stop at rape. Just my 2 cents.

341 xenon23  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:11:39pm

What does jaywalking have to do with child rape and it's punishment?

I am not sure that I fallow what your point is?

342 mattm  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:12:22pm

Dammit. The SCOTUS is out of control. Gitmo and now this based more on "feelings" and a "evolving society" rather than law.

Liberals will always says "well other countries have done away with Capital Punishment" so? Just because someone jumps off a bridge to commit suicide doesn't mean you should also. Since when did we have to do what other countries do when they don't do what we do.

343 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:13:53pm

re: #341 xenon23

What does jaywalking have to do with child rape and it's punishment?

I am not sure that I fallow what your point is?

You seem to think that if the Constitution doesn't affirmatively state that punishment X is allowed for crime Y, that means that punishment X for crime Y would be unconstitutional.

Wrong. It's the exact inverse.

344 kywrite  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:16:26pm

re: #285 GGMac

Regarding the "mental incapacity" canard - true mental incapacity in relation to crimes committed is so rare as to be non-existant. What is accepted by the "justice" system as mental incapacity is in truth "incapacity" posturing - i.e., a means to get off the hook - or the gas chamber, or the jail time.

If the one who has committed any crime attempts in any way to hide guilt, they have mental capacity.

The mentally incapacitated will not hide what they've done - ask them if they did the deed, and they'll simply say "yes".

So - except in EXTREMELY rare circumstances, "mental incapacity" is a crock.

One of the hallmarks of child rapists: they tell the child to lie. Every single time. Sometimes with threats of what will happen if they talk.

/take my word for it.

345 vagabond trader  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:16:32pm

re: #331 Throbert McGee

Possibly a hormonal thing. *shrug*

346 redheadredstate  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:17:53pm

re: #344 kywrite

One of the hallmarks of child rapists: they tell the child to lie. Every single time. Sometimes with threats of what will happen if they talk.

/take my word for it.

Sadly I know this to be a fact.

347 kywrite  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:18:06pm

re: #287 Cygnus

Some 60% of folks doing hard time were raped as children themselves, according to some studies. Something to think about.

348 bombarafat  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:18:19pm

To quote the good doctor:
"The stench from the bench is making me clench"

349 Ms. Right  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:18:37pm

While the crime this bastard committed goes beyond digusting, horrendous, evil... I can't think of enough awful word to describe the act and this monster... Life inprisonment may SEEM like leniency, but it's not. Death by lethal injection would be an act of mercy. One which the bastard doesn't deserve, IMHO.

Re: #334: If not executing them, perhaps chemical sterilization or neutering? Committing a sexual assault/abuse against a child is usually not a one-time occurance. Child molesters are not cured. So, therefore, shouldn't they be neutralized? In one way or another?

350 loppyd  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:19:41pm

re: #340 redheadredstate

As a victim of this crime I can tell you it leaves lasting scars. Part of who you are gets taken away from you and it takes years to get it back. Anyone who would victimize a child deserves death because I can bet you a dollar to a donut that they will do it again and the next time they might not stop at rape. Just my 2 cents.

First - and most importantly - I am so sorry for what you endured. There are no words, really.

Second - states need to pass laws which would put sexual deviants in jail for life.

Here in MA, if a convicted sex offender is found to be 'sexually dangerous' after he has completed his sentence, but before he is released he is sent back to jail for five years. When the five years are up he has to go through the same process again, and again, and again. The hearing itself is like a trial - I believe the defendant has a right to a jury, but not 100% sure of that.

351 vagabond trader  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:20:21pm

Ironic that these same lib judges probably think it's the mother's perrogative fine to murder a near term infant. Just sayin'

352 HappyGoLucky  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:22:09pm

Folks -

The death penalty IS constitutional.

Fifth Amendment: "No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime..." (emphasis mine).

The founding fathers knew there was capital punishment, and obviously approved of it by focusing on it in the fifth amendment. A capital crime, then as now, is one that brings the death penalty. Therefore, the death penalty is constitutional, and just as obviously is NOT "cruel and unusual punishment".

Why is SCOTUS leaving the Constitution of the United States in the dust? They nitpick every comma when faced with conservative issues, yet paint in broad strokes with liberal ones.

The death penalty is not cruel and unusual punishment. It has been around for thousands of years, thereby striking out the "unusual" part (it is common to every culture), and a quick death (from hanging, firing squad, etc.) is not "cruel", at least not cruel in the sense that their dying is prolonged for hours or days, which I believe the founding fathers meant when they incorporated that bit.

If the death penalty was truly "cruel and unusual punishment" (eight amendment), it would not have been mentioned in the fifth amendment.

353 redheadredstate  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:22:37pm

re: #350 loppyd

First - and most importantly - I am so sorry for what you endured. There are no words, really.

Second - states need to pass laws which would put sexual deviants in jail for life.

Here in MA, if a convicted sex offender is found to be 'sexually dangerous' after he has completed his sentence, but before he is released he is sent back to jail for five years. When the five years are up he has to go through the same process again, and again, and again. The hearing itself is like a trial - I believe the defendant has a right to a jury, but not 100% sure of that.

Something I learned years ago was not to put the guilt on myself for what happened. I've done talks at churches, youth group meetings etc...It took years to get to this point, but I'm no one's victim and won't live my life that way. The perp has since died and I've moved on but whenever something this stupid happens it just dredges it all up again. The SCOTUS is out of control and I agree with Dickens "the law is an ass" (apologies to any lawyers on LGF).

354 kywrite  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:22:38pm

re: #288 xenon23

I have to support the court on this one. death penalty should be for murder only with treason as the only exception.
Mind you that I myself was raped as a child. I do not wish death on those that hurt me in that case.

Hm, that's two of us then. Interesting.

355 jorline  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:23:06pm

Read this load of CRAP! And you thought inJustice Kennedy was bad?
A Massachusetts politician and defense attorney has touched off a firestorm with his shocking public vow to torment and "rip apart" child rape victims who take the witness stand if the state legislature passed stiff mandatory sentences for child sex offenders.

Rep. James Fagan, a Democrat, made the comments during debate last month on the state House floor.

"I'm gonna rip them apart," Fagan said of young victims during his testimony on the bill. "I'm going to make sure that the rest of their life is ruined, that when they’re 8 years old, they throw up; when they’re 12 years old, they won’t sleep; when they’re 19 years old, they’ll have nightmares and they’ll never have a relationship with anybody.”

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

356 Ms. Right  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:23:09pm

re: #351 vagabond trader

Ironic that these same lib judges probably think it's the mother's perrogative fine to murder a near term infant. Just sayin'

Especially after the Gitmo ruling, I have zero confidence in the SC. Zero.

357 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:23:23pm

re: #351 vagabond trader

Ironic that these same lib judges probably think it's the mother's perrogative fine to murder a near term infant. Just sayin'

Preview would've been your friend. Fixed it for you.

358 Josephine  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:23:26pm

re: #59 Occasional Reader

Horrible as the crime is, I don't agree with you that it's worse than murder. I am not willing to make the assumption that a child-rape victim's life becomes essentially worthless after the crime, such that he/she would be better off dead.

You are correct.

359 xenon23  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:23:55pm

re: #343 Occasional Reader

I think I have lost you in this word problem. I really don't understand what you point and opinion is?

My point is that we should not slide back to the days where we hung people for house theft. Shall we start using the death penalty for car theft. Shall we start to chop the hands of of those who steal. Shall we adopt our own new form of sharia law. Would that all be kosher with the constitution?

360 code red 21  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:27:59pm

We have become so enlightened in our treatment of criminals in general that we have lost sight of the victims. How many children who have been raped by a pedophile have ended up committing suicide as adults? How many children have abused other children or grown up and become rapists because of the abuse they suffered? How many have turned to drugs and alcohol? In some cases you might as well have killed the victim for all of the damage done to them and damage they do to others. The death penalty for murdering the innocence of a child is justice served. Believe me if I could go back in my life and "take care" of the people did things to me as a child they would be begging for someone to put them out of their misery with a needle. Remember what the liberals usually say when they pass some bullshit legislation that suppose to save someone or some endangered critter.."if it just saves one then it is worth it". Well I say if the death penalty saves just one more innocent child from a predator then it is worth it.

361 xenon23  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:28:32pm

re: #354 kywrite
Thanks

Well I hope I do not get kick of LGF for not going with the mass opinion on this one. I don't want to upset the balance.

I will add one thing to my first statement. If the dad or mom of a child that was raped killed the rapist I would not put that mom or dad on trial for murder.

362 vagabond trader  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:28:43pm

re: #357 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Thanks, there was more than one fubar in that thought transferred to type.

363 blangwort  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:28:57pm

re: #186 kywrite

I wish you peace. However, I'm not about cruelty of punishment either.

Let's say for the sake of argument that we could figure out what sort of disease has infested the perpetrator's head. And let's suppose for a minute that the perpetrator could be cured. How would he ever live with himself? How would he not commit suicide?

So let's put the perp in prison, knowing full well that he's likely to get shanked to death in the not too distant future. How is that a just punishment?

Or, let's leave him alone and make him in to a human vegetable, while he throws his own excrement at the walls of his cell in solitary confinement.

It seems to me that there are things worse than death. This sentence ought to be a judgment call.

Why does the Supreme Court feel that their judgment is better than that of each and every state in the Union?

364 kywrite  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:31:47pm

re: #355 jorline

Remember, though, in context he was talking about himself as a lawyer in his role of defending a client in a capital case. This does not excuse what he said, and IMO a very BAD lawyer would do that, as it would ensure sympathy for the weeping child and not the perp.

Nevertheless keep it in context.

365 loppyd  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:32:20pm

re: #355 jorline

Read this load of CRAP! And you thought inJustice Kennedy was bad?
A Massachusetts politician and defense attorney has touched off a firestorm with his shocking public vow to torment and "rip apart" child rape victims who take the witness stand if the state legislature passed stiff mandatory sentences for child sex offenders.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

He called the proposed sentences Draconian....

Don't expect any outrage from the governor. He's pen pals with a convicted rapist.....and a shoe in for a DOJ job if Obama wins the election.

Scary? You betcha.

366 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:32:35pm

re: #355 jorline

"Fagan said as a defense attorney it would be his duty to do that ..."

I do not want to think of what this man's soul must look like.

367 loppyd  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:33:28pm

re: #353 redheadredstate

I know a lot of lawyers and a lot of them are major asses. LOL

Bless you for your strength.

368 Ilxixiixs  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:33:42pm

I am usually very conservative when this kind of thing comes up and certainly believe that there is a place for the death penalty in our country. But, I have to agree with this ruling because, while the crime was terrible and this guy deserves a brutal punishment, I don't think we should start handing out death for this type of crime. What happens when the definition of "child" changes in the future and it (as it may now) include 14 or 15 yr old girls? Does the 13 yr old that committed the crime and was tried as an adult get the death penalty? I'm sure many disagree but I can't see death as just punishment. Lots and lots of pain but not death.

369 redheadredstate  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:34:08pm

re: #367 loppyd

I know a lot of lawyers and a lot of them are major asses. LOL

Bless you for your strength.

*HUGS*

370 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:34:29pm

re: #364 kywrite

Remember, though, in context he was talking about himself as a lawyer in his role of defending a client in a capital case. This does not excuse what he said, and IMO a very BAD lawyer would do that, as it would ensure sympathy for the weeping child and not the perp.

Nevertheless keep it in context.

Your point is well taken, but see my #366

371 xenon23  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:34:59pm

re: #368 Ilxixiixs

Very good point!

372 jorline  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:38:42pm

re: #364 kywrite

Remember, though, in context he was talking about himself as a lawyer in his role of defending a client in a capital case. This does not excuse what he said, and IMO a very BAD lawyer would do that, as it would ensure sympathy for the weeping child and not the perp.

Nevertheless keep it in context.

Fuck the content kywrite. You still have to live with yourself and have some level of moral character.
screw the attorney when he talks about destroying a child for life and the misery he will personally cause them. Defend your client, but spare the child!

I agree with you that a very BAD lawer would do this.

373 Salem  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:38:55pm

re: #229 deacon

I was listening to Rush today, and he had a police officer call in and say that this was a good idea because his concern was that if someone knew they would get the death penalty for child rape, they might be more likely to kill the child to pervent the child from testifying against them.

Makes sense.

The question then is how many children the perp can get away with raping before one has the courage to testify?

374 kywrite  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:40:09pm

re: #361 xenon23

Thanks

Well I hope I do not get kick of LGF for not going with the mass opinion on this one. I don't want to upset the balance.

I will add one thing to my first statement. If the dad or mom of a child that was raped killed the rapist I would not put that mom or dad on trial for murder.

Eh, Chuck does not whack dissenters, just asses.

And to tell you the truth, I'd be one of those moms, and I would do my time with pride. I don't think the law is right, as it seems to bow too much to emotion. My emotion is a completely different issue, and I wish that man a painful, lengthy, horrible death, and hope the girl can go on with her life, not defining herself as a victim (as I did for way too long -- another reason I hate liberalism.)

375 jorline  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:40:25pm

re: #365 loppyd

He called the proposed sentences Draconian....

Don't expect any outrage from the governor. He's pen pals with a convicted rapist.....and a shoe in for a DOJ job if Obama wins the election.

Scary? You betcha.

Spot on, loppyd...very scary!

376 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:41:57pm

re: #372 jorline

Fuck the content kywrite. You still have to live with yourself and have some level of moral character.
screw the attorney when he talks about destroying a child for life and the misery he will personally cause them. Defend your client, but spare the child!

I agree with you that a very BAD lawer would do this.

And you want a laugh? Way down at the end is THIS little tidbit:

"State Rep. James Fagan ... serves as chair of the House ethics committee."

377 rp1138  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:42:20pm

I think Titus had it right.

Language warning

378 Orion  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:42:27pm

I would be all in favor of killing child rapists - if we could be CERTAIN. There are WAY too many cases of conviction on no evidence, or faulty evidence for my tastes.

My neighbor in Tucson was convicted based only upon the testimony of his daughter - who’s own friends, mother, and JOURNAL said that she was lying to get ‘revenge’ upon him for disciplining her for sneaking out of the house. The whole story is beyond insane - except that it keeps HAPPENING.

We had a teacher who was falsely accused of molesting one of his students - he committed suicide rather than go through the kangaroo-court trials they have for this offense. The accuser was stunned and admitted that she made up the charge in revenge.

When you’ve got someone for whom there is no doubt AT ALL of their guilt, I’m totally in favor of killing them. That goes for ANY Rape, murder, or arson. But if there’s even a SHRED of doubt - forget it. Our court system is a JOKE with a VERY high false-conviction rate. Fix that, then I’ll back capital punishment.

Orion

379 xenon23  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:43:41pm

re: #374 kywrite

I got past the victim thing too...now I wish I could help my sister get past it. She is not doing well in the mind.

380 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:44:10pm

re: #378 Orion

A VERY good point! The entire problem is about being certain.

381 jorline  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:45:33pm

re: #376 pre-Boomer Marine brat

And you want a laugh? Way down at the end is THIS little tidbit:

"State Rep. James Fagan ... serves as chair of the House ethics committee."

These guys have their heads screwed on right...LOL

oxymoron

382 dan  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:48:08pm

I sort of liked George Carlin's take on these sorts of people. Just fence off a square state and put them all in there together to fend for themselves. They can do whatever they want to each other and leave real people alone.

383 redheadredstate  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:48:26pm

re: #379 xenon23

I got past the victim thing too...now I wish I could help my sister get past it. She is not doing well in the mind.

If you can, get her into counseling asap. If she can be made to see that she isn't alone then it will help her state of mind. The way I started dealing with it that was effective was to council others going through the aftermath. It doesn't hurt to get really ticked off too. I hope she can turn it around you can't rush it tho. It was at least 5 years after the fact (I was a teenager by then) that I started going to counseling. Give her time and love, that's all you can do.

384 ronaldusmagnus  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:48:27pm

I just finished reading the opinion.

The rape occurred in 1998. The girl was 8 years old. Today she is 18.
If she is still in the area, then her day is being bombarded with details of her nightmare throughout the MSM.

God bless you L.H., wherever you are.

385 jcm  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:50:11pm

re: #364 kywrite

Remember, though, in context he was talking about himself as a lawyer in his role of defending a client in a capital case. This does not excuse what he said, and IMO a very BAD lawyer would do that, as it would ensure sympathy for the weeping child and not the perp.

Nevertheless keep it in context.

Lawyers particularly their duty. They have a duty to defend the accused. That does not mean get them off by any means, sly court room maneuvers or behavior unbecoming.

First and foremost attorneys are an officer of the court, JUSTICE is the duty. Justice is ensuring for their client a FAIR trial, that the defendants rights are not violated, all the facts are presented. That the law, facts, and circumstances around the crime are all presented.

Ripping apart a witness, a child victim on the stand does not meet that standard.

386 kywrite  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:51:27pm

re: #379 xenon23

I love these guys: [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

On their site and among many other things, they have a very loving -- and angry, in many cases -- community of people who were victimized by child predators. It can be cathartic to chat with them. I don't know what your sister's block is, but it's something to think about.

387 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:53:16pm

re: #385 jcm

(Hi there!)

officer of the court

Precisely! It's a concept I've heard old-time judges and lawyers say is sorely lacking in recent generations of attorneys.

388 xenon23  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:54:49pm

re: #383 redheadredstate

I have talked her in to seeing a psychiatrist so she is getting better help but she has seen a social worker type consoler for years that has done far more harm. That person is retiring soon and I am trying to get her to go to a real phycologist. So far she has done mush of what I have suggested.

I am hopping for the best.

389 johnnyreb  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:55:18pm

re: #361 xenon23

Thanks

Well I hope I do not get kick of LGF for not going with the mass opinion on this one. I don't want to upset the balance.

I will add one thing to my first statement. If the dad or mom of a child that was raped killed the rapist I would not put that mom or dad on trial for murder.

I don't think you are alone here. Just that maybe some people won't speak up against the tide. I used to be all for the death penalty, for nearly any violent crime from rape to murder.

Then I started reading about all those cases that the innocence project has had overturned. 218 so far and they have virtually no budget and rely on contributions. Most of those were men with 20 years+ and/or life sentences. Now in my soul I know we (the United States) have killed innocent men and women under the color of the law. No one will ever know how many innocent people were put to death for crimes they never committed.

There was a case here in CT a year or so ago. A man (he was a lawyer) murdered his neighbor because of something his young daughter said that made him believe that he had molested her. Turns out nothing had happened. No harm, no foul, except an innocent man is dead and another is awaiting trial for murder. And the kicker is, he won't face the death penalty for killing his neighbor. Not even for pre-meditated murder.

Having said that, I have no problems with life in prison without parole for this crime.

390 jcm  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:56:23pm

re: #387 pre-Boomer Marine brat

(Hi there!)

Precisely! It's a concept I've heard old-time judges and lawyers say is sorely lacking in recent generations of attorneys.

HI! Things are good, busy as one armed paperhanger, keeps me out of trouble!

391 xenon23  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 1:58:58pm

re: #386 kywrite

Thanks for that info. I do know the site but my sister is not much for the internet. She is often amazed at how fast I can find stuff we are talking about while on the phone. She will ask me for a song of to look up something and I will have it up or downloaded before she is though asking.

392 kywrite  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 2:00:59pm

re: #388 xenon23

I nearly posted about this earlier -- I had the same problem, a string of therapists that encouraged me to "open up" about it.

One day, at a temp job with an anger management clinic, I was chatting with a (fantastic) therapist who worked there, and told him about it -- and he stopped me to ask why I was using it as a shield. "Opening up" had caused me to define myself in terms of my child rape, not in terms of the fantabulous person I actually am.

One great therapist changed my perspective completely with about ten words.

Is this perhaps the problem? I suspect it is a common issue with mushy-headed victim-oriented social worker "therapists."

393 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 2:02:48pm

re: #390 jcm

HI! Things are good, busy as one armed paperhanger, keeps me out of trouble!

Speaking of busy, I've got to get out of here. BTW, forgot to tell you, the two videos you recommended (several weeks ago, one being the engineering animation of structural damage caused by the impact) re the WTC were excellent. Thank you very much.

394 kywrite  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 2:02:59pm

re: #389 johnnyreb

You live in Connecticut? You poor thing! Come out and visit me in Hawaii someday.

/Stationed in Connecticut for three years -- a fate worse than death for a Kentucky family! Esp. with accents.

395 redheadredstate  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 2:03:47pm

re: #388 xenon23

I have talked her in to seeing a psychiatrist so she is getting better help but she has seen a social worker type consoler for years that has done far more harm. That person is retiring soon and I am trying to get her to go to a real physiologist. So far she has done mush of what I have suggested.

I am hopping for the best.

Bless her, I hope she gets the help that she needs. I'm sorry she had some bad counseling. Group therapy with others who have and are going through what she is going through really works wonders. At least it did for me. Good luck to her and your family.

396 xenon23  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 2:03:57pm

re: #389 johnnyreb

I agree...all good points...and yes people fear that if they say anything that even remotely favors the perverts that they will then be called one too. I feel that we need more talk about this subject. Most of this abuse is part of a cycle and not talking about it and bringing it out into the light of day keeps the cycle going.

397 mamashawna  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 2:04:47pm

As MY mama says: Nail their balls to a tree stump and push 'em over backwards!

I don't think I'd have a problem putting a bullet in the head of ANYONE who did that to my kids, but that's just me.

Maybe let the victim decide the punishment? Could be too much for a person, however, after being raped in the first place.

398 redheadredstate  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 2:07:59pm

re: #392 kywrite

I nearly posted about this earlier -- I had the same problem, a string of therapists that encouraged me to "open up" about it.

One day, at a temp job with an anger management clinic, I was chatting with a (fantastic) therapist who worked there, and told him about it -- and he stopped me to ask why I was using it as a shield. "Opening up" had caused me to define myself in terms of my child rape, not in terms of the fantabulous person I actually am.

One great therapist changed my perspective completely with about ten words.

Is this perhaps the problem? I suspect it is a common issue with mushy-headed victim-oriented social worker "therapists."

Good points. For me it started getting better whenever I realized that I didn't want to be seen as a victim.

399 kywrite  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 2:09:04pm

re: #396 xenon23

I agree...all good points...and yes people fear that if they say anything that even remotely favors the perverts that they will then be called one too. I feel that we need more talk about this subject. Most of this abuse is part of a cycle and not talking about it and bringing it out into the light of day keeps the cycle going.

If they'd just bloody listen to the VICS who have brooded over the "why" question for half their lives or more, they might start doing some good! muttermutter.

That's why freedom of speech is so damned important -- it encourages people to bring up things, good or bad. Lances out the infections, brings the cockroaches out where they can be squashed, and gets those with brilliant insights into the open where they can illuminate the rest of us. Whether it's legislated or peer-pressure-caused, discouraging free speech harms us all in ways we don't even see.

/soapbox

400 xenon23  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 2:10:15pm

re: #392 kywrite

Yes we should not live as victims.

Was hurt by a lot of different people when I was a kid. I often felt that I was a magnet for people that liked to hurt people. I also am blessed/cursed with an ability to remember in detail almost all of the stuff that went on in my childhood. It caused and still causes me a lot of hurt. I kept it all in for years and letting it out...writing it down and getting help from a very good doctor has done a lot for me. I am not saying that I am over it all just that I live with it better.

I don't want to live my life as a victim!

401 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 2:10:34pm

re: #392 kywrite

If I could intrude, please, then I've got to go:

re: the power of self-definition, you're spot-on.

Decades ago, I played around at golf. Was never much good. I'd slice the ball off the tee, or top it. Every time I addressed the ball at the tee, I'd mutter to myself about what I KNEW I was probably about to do.

Years later, I learned what I'd done to myself. I'd programmed myself for failure. I practiced hitting balls perfectly in my mind (visualizations), then went out to a driving range. Guess what.

Go with God. Become even more of the person you can be!

402 xenon23  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 2:11:12pm

re: #395 redheadredstate

Thanks for the kind words. I think she is on the right track.

403 Mardukhai  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 2:11:39pm

I agree with the death penalty for murder -- the victims are dead.

For rapists, I mainly want them to suffer for a long, long time. in a deep, dank dungeon. I want the victim to be able to write the criminal, and describe what it's like to walk in the sunshine.

But that's just me.

404 xenon23  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 2:13:13pm

re: #399 kywrite

secrets keep us sick and the truth will set us free!

405 kywrite  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 2:14:52pm

I'll watch for y'all out here, rhrs and Xenon. Gotta foil my baby's evil plots against my purse right now.

(she already recognizes credit cards -- sigh.)

406 xenon23  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 2:16:15pm

re: #405 kywrite

Go save you purse! I need to go too...I missed lunch and I am not hungry fo some home cooking!

407 brakes  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 2:16:44pm

re: #159 reine.de.tout

OMG, I just read that and now I'm crying.

408 Boston Patriot  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 2:19:32pm

Death penalty? Please. I think this is a rational decision.

409 Dainn  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 2:20:51pm

Michelle Malkin has a good article on her blog concerning this decision. I still don't agree that death is the right punishment, but anything but death is good for this non-person. According to what I am reading from that site, it looks as if its hard labor for life for this guy:

“D. Whoever commits the crime of aggravated rape shall be punished by life imprisonment at hard labor without benefit of parole, probation, or suspension of sentence."

410 Boston Patriot  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 2:22:57pm

As a disclaimer, let me note that I find this crime repugnant. But death.....c'mon.

411 redheadredstate  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 2:23:39pm

re: #405 kywrite

I'll watch for y'all out here, rhrs and Xenon. Gotta foil my baby's evil plots against my purse right now.

(she already recognizes credit cards -- sigh.)

Ahh the eveil baby purse ploy...been there done that, got the t-shirt but the baby puked on it.

412 mattm  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 2:25:31pm

re: #355 jorline

Read this load of CRAP! And you thought inJustice Kennedy was bad?
A Massachusetts politician and defense attorney has touched off a firestorm with his shocking public vow to torment and "rip apart" child rape victims who take the witness stand if the state legislature passed stiff mandatory sentences for child sex offenders.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Wow. WTF? What is wrong in these peoples heads to elect these morons?

413 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 2:26:15pm

re: #408 Boston Patriot

Death penalty? Please. I think this is a rational decision.

Did you read the description of this child's injuries?

414 mattm  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 2:28:08pm

re: #403 Mardukhai

I agree with the death penalty for murder -- the victims are dead.

For rapists, I mainly want them to suffer for a long, long time. in a deep, dank dungeon. I want the victim to be able to write the criminal, and describe what it's like to walk in the sunshine.

But that's just me.

Agreed. Child rapists need to suffer, life in solitary, no parole in a brigltley lit room 24/7/365 would also work for me.

415 The Termlimator  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 2:31:20pm

How did we get to this point of letting 544 (535 congress and SCOTUS) people ruin our great country?
Fire every one of their elitist arses!

416 Steffan  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 2:31:41pm

re: #257 taxfreekiller

In America the msm has lied for 50 years.

First this evil king of lies must die.

Don't worry, they're just about ready to call hospice.

Newspaper revenues so far this year are dropping into the toilet. The NY Slimes may not have the money to maintain their building if ol' Pinch doesn't get a frickin' clue.

In addition to this, Perky Katie's career at See BS is in deathwatch mode, and we can dream that Olbermann is about to stick a knife in his own career.

417 redheadredstate  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 2:33:13pm

re: #416 Steffan

Not to mention that with poor Tim Russert's untimely demise one of the last somewhat fair journalist/interviewers is gone and cannot be replaced.

418 mjwsatx  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 2:35:03pm

Thank you to the victims of child rapists who shared their feelings and opinions with us here today. I was beginning to get all creeped out that I agreed with the court on this one and disagreed with most of you.

I certainly deplore the sentiment of Kennedy's statement about "evolving standards of decency," and I feel that child rape is a particularly heinous crime which requires extra special punishment and quite likely life in prison for the offender. But being a believer in the justice of an eye for an eye - I don't see how society has the right to take a life when no life was given. We have heard from victims who have suffered tremendously - but recovered to live full and productive lives.

Lock the offenders away for the rest of their lives - but don't kill them. As kywrite suggested - the death penalty may just encourage them to murder their victims if they fear they will get caught. This is a much better argument for the decision then "evolving standards of decency."

I'm still creeped out that agree with the libs on this one. Feh.

Mike

419 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 2:36:38pm
420 Electron Shuffler  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 2:39:09pm

It's up to the states to define what the penalty will be.
Death penalty? What's the rush. We all meet death in the end.
Death is too good for the sob's. If they committed murder, fine. Have at em', knock em off.

It's been far too long since our prisons were called penitentiaries.
The key phrase being "Penance". Waive the eighth amendment for cruel and unusual punishment in these cases. Just don't physically harm them.

Make an example of them. The penitentiaries were some place you did not want to end up in. Old school, old testament places of punishment and penance. A little misery tends to straighten people out (or a lot of misery if required). Prisons have become too cushy these days.

Punishment? Among others, how about a couple of hours every day in stocks in the town square with a sign designating their crime. Along with a bucket of rancid produce nearby available to the local populace.

Later.

421 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 2:39:26pm
422 The Termlimator  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 2:40:25pm

#419

I'M ALL IN!

423 redheadredstate  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 2:42:49pm

re: #419 taxfreekiller

#415

funny you should ask

[Link: www.blowoutcongress.com...]

Take the step, freedom is there just the first step is all it takes.

I listen to Bolton every day on KLIF, he has a lot of good things to say. It's like Rush was saying the other day. When will people say enough?" Maybe if we all blow these sob's out of office that could be the beginning.

424 nikis-knight  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 2:45:18pm

re: #352 HappyGoLucky

You don't expect them to read two whole amendments at once, do you? That won't leave time to read the Kenyan Law Review, or whereever the heck Ginsberg get's her ideas about constitutionality from.

425 The Termlimator  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 2:45:35pm

#423 &#419
Rule #1 for our TOTALLY new congress: TERM LIMITS

426 GGMac  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 2:46:52pm

re: #344 kywrite

One of the hallmarks of child rapists: they tell the child to lie. Every single time. Sometimes with threats of what will happen if they talk.

/take my word for it.

I believe you, for I also know... and that they tell the child to lie is one more proof that the child-rapist full well knows right from wrong, and again proves the rapists' claim of "mental incapacity" is a lie.

...there seem to be quite a few of us here who know from whence we speak...

427 kywrite  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 2:54:12pm

re: #426 GGMac

I believe you, for I also know... and that they tell the child to lie is one more proof that the child-rapist full well knows right from wrong, and again proves the rapists' claim of "mental incapacity" is a lie.

...there seem to be quite a few of us here who know from whence we speak...

Anywhere from 15% to 40%, depending on which study you read and believe. That's a whole lotta killin' if you start executing the perps.

Most victims fear speaking about it because

their families might be harmed (grampa-raped-mommy is not a thought to share lightly.)
they are in the habit of hiding it
they don't want to remember it
they are ashamed
there is a stigma
personal reasons

More of us should talk about it, though, if possible.

428 funky chicken  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 3:01:12pm

re: #33 buzzsawmonkey

Opposing the armed forces, which exist to inflict capital punishment upon the enemies of the country, is only a short step away from this, it seems.

YES, just wait for the "war crimes" trials to really spin up if Obama is elected.

429 eaglewingz08  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 3:02:42pm

'decency' and 'restraint' from the libs who brought us abortion and gay marriage? and rights for terrorists? and Kelo? The Constitution does counsel decency, but not restraint when due process has been accorded, then the Constitution permits the state to impose what the Legislature and the Executive representing the will of the people, as is proper. I say that the penalty imposed by lethal injection, a needle in the arm and three minutes of discomfort, if that, is far disproportionately milder than that suffered by this little girl already and what she will suffer in the future. If proportionate penalty is the key, this monster would be forced to suffer what he put this girl through for the rest of his miserable life. However that might be cruel and thus unconstitutional though it would be just punishment. The next best thing the legislature could do is to assure that this monster not receive free housing, free medical care, free meals and cable tv for the rest of his life at a cost of 100,000 or more per year to house and protect society and other prisoners from this monster, by executing him swiftly. That is just and proportionate to the crime and it is indecent to let this man stay in the can for fifty more years while waiting for time to erase the memories of most of the participants in the trial, so that he could find a liberal judge to let him out in twenty years, because serving more time would be 'disproportionate' to the offense, and he served his crime, or he was unjustly convicted in the first place, or some other claptrap his future lawyers will dream up to get a gullible judge to swallow. I say, any judge who lets a person convicted of this type of crime, or any capital crime out of prison, must house that released criminal in his primary residence for fifteen years immediately following his release. That would put a damper on judicial activist judges. If you truly believed the criminal was innocent, put your money and home where your order is.

430 descolada9  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 3:05:37pm

Of all of the members of the Supreme Court whom I have contentions with, I consider Kennedy to be by far the most shallow and most scummy of the leftists on the court.

431 eaglewingz08  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 3:05:37pm

Term, it's 277 people who run the country, 218 from the House, 51 from the Senate, and five from the Supreme Court, and the President. However, the five on the Supreme Court are more powerful than the 272 others combined.

432 GGMac  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 3:07:46pm

re: #427 kywrite

Anywhere from 15% to 40%, depending on which study you read and believe. That's a whole lotta killin' if you start executing the perps.

Most victims fear speaking about it because

their families might be harmed (grampa-raped-mommy is not a thought to share lightly.)
they are in the habit of hiding it
they don't want to remember it
they are ashamed
there is a stigma
personal reasons

More of us should talk about it, though, if possible.

My nic is blue, as is yours - some comment topics better w/ email than on the Football field :)

433 GGMac  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 3:10:45pm

re: #429 eaglewingz08

'decency' and 'restraint' from the libs who brought us abortion and gay marriage? and rights for terrorists? and Kelo? The Constitution does counsel decency, but not restraint when due process has been accorded, then the Constitution permits the state to impose what the Legislature and the Executive representing the will of the people, as is proper. I say that the penalty imposed by lethal injection, a needle in the arm and three minutes of discomfort, if that, is far disproportionately milder than that suffered by this little girl already and what she will suffer in the future. If proportionate penalty is the key, this monster would be forced to suffer what he put this girl through for the rest of his miserable life. However that might be cruel and thus unconstitutional though it would be just punishment. The next best thing the legislature could do is to assure that this monster not receive free housing, free medical care, free meals and cable tv for the rest of his life at a cost of 100,000 or more per year to house and protect society and other prisoners from this monster, by executing him swiftly. That is just and proportionate to the crime and it is indecent to let this man stay in the can for fifty more years while waiting for time to erase the memories of most of the participants in the trial, so that he could find a liberal judge to let him out in twenty years, because serving more time would be 'disproportionate' to the offense, and he served his crime, or he was unjustly convicted in the first place, or some other claptrap his future lawyers will dream up to get a gullible judge to swallow. I say, any judge who lets a person convicted of this type of crime, or any capital crime out of prison, must house that released criminal in his primary residence for fifteen years immediately following his release. That would put a damper on judicial activist judges. If you truly believed the criminal was innocent, put your money and home where your order is.

eaglewingz08, you should be on the SCOTUS!

434 Naso Tang  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 3:12:48pm

I don't shed any tears for those on death row, but I don't think the death penalty is worth having. I believe locking up for life and throwing away the key is much better punishment than possibly a few hours of fear, after years of appeals that cost us all much more than basic food and board for the convicted, or the possibility that we get it wrong, which has been found the case many times since the advent of DNA.

Child rapists may be the worst of the worst, but I doubt that victims of any age think they were violated less badly than anyone else, be it rape or murder.

435 Kathleen  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 3:17:45pm

Regarding “...the evolving standards of decency that mark the progress of a maturing society.”

That had to be a typo. Surely they meant "...the evolving standards of indecency..."

436 funky chicken  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 3:27:01pm

How about for this guy?

NEW YORK — An ex-convict was found guilty Tuesday in the rape and torture of a Columbia University graduate student who survived 19 hours of nightmarish sadism in which he scalded her with boiling water and attempted to blind her before trying to burn her to death.

Robert Williams was convicted of attempted murder, rape, kidnapping, arson and other charges in the attack, which was so prolonged and agonizing that the victim begged her tormentor to kill her and later tried to kill herself.

The verdict followed a gruesome trial that included dramatic testimony from the victim, who said the 31-year-old Williams made her swallow fistfuls of painkillers, ordered her to gouge out her eyes with scissors, sealed her lips with super glue and gagged her with duct tape before torching her apartment.

Williams, who was found guilty of all but two of 46 counts, was not in court to hear the verdict read. The judge said that when Williams was told a verdict had been reached, he simply turned over in his courthouse cell and went back to sleep.

"He didn't have any more reaction to that than he has had to anything else," said Williams' attorney Arnold Levine.

The victim and her relatives, in the front row of the courtroom, showed no reaction while the verdicts were read. Her father, on behalf of the family, later declined to comment.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

437 pygmalienation  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 3:30:26pm

Latest SCOTUS decisions:
Slouching towards making islamic, err ..."matrimonial practices" less offensive to American Society. Little by little, the islamists just have to bide their time. Expect this to accellerate if Obama gets put in control.

/only halfway sarcastic

438 johnnyreb  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 3:33:53pm

re: #418 mjwsatx

I'm still creeped out that agree with the libs on this one. Feh.

Mike


I think this might be part of the problem on why some conserative people wont come out and say this is a good decision.

439 kywrite  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 3:34:37pm

re: #432 GGMac

Sigh. Safe emaily no worky.

I'm running Linux on an Asus Eee, using Firefox 2.0.0.11, if anyone's interested.

GGMac, email me if you need to chat -- no problem.

440 funky chicken  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 3:38:52pm

re: #438 johnnyreb

It's not a good decision, if only on federalism grounds. The elected officials of LA decided that this piece of human offal deserved to face the death penalty for his crime. SCOTUS really doesn't have any business mucking around in this case.

441 Throbert McGee  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 3:48:41pm

Arrgh. My housemate just mentioned that he wanted to watch the news for more details on the SCOTUS case. I was like, "Yeah, I couldn't believe the majority decision, and it was weird for me to be in total agreement with Scalia's side for once!"

Housemate kinda stiffens and replies "Well, I happened that the majority made totally the right decision and it was very courageous of them to do so." Proceeded to echo all of Kennedy's BS about slippery slopes and sudden descents into barbarism, as though merely by allowing the existing Louisiana statute to stand, the Court would've been quietly endorsing the death penalty for people who cheat on their spouses, shoplift batteries, or fart in church.

However, my housemate is also my landlord and I'm simply a tenant renting the spare bedroom, so I just held my tongue and withdrew from the argument.

442 JohnnyReb  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 3:51:41pm

re: #440 funky chicken

It's not a good decision, if only on federalism grounds. The elected officials of LA decided that this piece of human offal deserved to face the death penalty for his crime. SCOTUS really doesn't have any business mucking around in this case.

Actually it does. The Marshall Court (1801-1836) pretty much said that SCOTUS is the law of the land and can over rule state courts on matters of the US Constitution. Specifically in martin vs. hunter, the court ruled that it had the last say in matters regarding interpretation the Constitution. This has never again been addressed or overturned. So SCOTUS is the final judge of what constitutes constitutes cruel and unusual punishment per the 8th amendment of the constitution.

443 proud to be an infidel  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 3:56:57pm

re: #3 Atoz

Another reason to vote against Obama.

I can't stand Obama and I sure as hell am not voting for him BUT in the best interest of truth, even HE disagreed with the Supreme Court's decision that the death penalty was cruel and unusual punishment for child rapists. So what does that tell you about our Supreme Court when a guy like Obama is to the right of them?

444 Ojoe  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 4:01:08pm

re: #328 xenon23

It is to the protection of others by deterrence, and in this case by the non-ability of the perpetrator to repeat his crime on others if the big penalty is done, that the penalty ought to be assessed, & it does not have to do, necessarily, with the thoughts and feelings of the victim.

445 JohnnyReb  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 4:18:50pm

I have typed and deleted 5 comments that I was going to post here because of various reasons.

Reason #1. Most people on here hate this decision and I don't want to be seen as the odd man out.

Reason #2. I personally agree with the decision. For my own reasons as stated as above. Death is final and we will never know how many innocent people have been murdered under the color of law. But some people wont say that because 99% of the people on here hate the decision.

Reason #3. Some people on here have compared this to abortion. I do not support abortion. I hate it. But this is a straw man argument. Something we complain about leftist blogs doing all the time.

Reason #4. Emotions. This has actually happened to people on here. I will never know the pain they feel. I can't fathom what they went through. My thoughts and prayers for them. If I had the power I would change their lives, but I can't. More power to them for actually speaking about their experiences.

Reason #5. Some people think they can't take a stand when a LLL has the same thoughts on a subject. IMO, get over it.

As someone said above, we need to get this out in public and talk about it.

446 Salem  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 4:19:38pm

re: #443 proud to be an infidel

I can't stand Obama and I sure as hell am not voting for him BUT in the best interest of truth, even HE disagreed with the Supreme Court's decision that the death penalty was cruel and unusual punishment for child rapists. So what does that tell you about our Supreme Court when a guy like Obama is to the right of them?

Well, he is running for president. I'm sure he isn't saying that because he's a crusader for states rights, just because the issue is so naturally emotionally-charged that he'd be crazy to say anything else. Hot potatoes don't get much hotter than that.

447 THX-42  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 4:25:05pm

Maybe I missed it in Justice Kennedy's ruling (or in this very long thread), but exactly which authoritative source did he use for his statement that "there is a national consensus against capital punishment for the crime of child rape"?

448 nonic  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 4:27:31pm

Sorry, I have not read all the comments on this thread, so I may be repeating someone else's thought, but.............

The only, single one and only, thing you can say FOR not exacting the death penalty for even child rape is that if the penalty is death whether the victim lives or dies, then the rapist has an incentive to kill the victim so as to lessen his chance of getting caught and convicted.

Here's my suggestion: Prison AND surgical castration for child rape. And throw him into the general prison population, as well. Child rapists are distinctly unpopular even among thieves and killers. (Seems only Supreme Court Justices have much sympathy for them.)

449 danolt  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 4:28:09pm

So if some foreign spy was able to do extreme damage that did not directly kill anyone, could the spy be executed?

450 Pantera  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 4:36:51pm

Wow, honestly guys. You really think that parole judges are just lining up outside the courtroom to release child rapists early? On the list of people who they tend to show leniency towards, child rapists are the lowest on the list, right behind serial murderers.

Personally, I think Justice Kennedy was just trying to make sure that capital punishment was only for those who directly killed. Rape is not murder, despite your quasi-philosophical musings to the contrary. I've always thought the justice system should be eye for an eye. Lethal injection for a rape just isn't equal.

451 Tom Kratman  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 4:41:38pm

re: #139 WriterMom

OK. I'm gonna spell this out for you slowly:

It's quite well known that the Chinese Communist harvest the organs of dissidents and they are harvested and sold. It's a reprehensible practise that would have made the Nazis, like Mengele , proud. And you are saying that hey-they are actually right.

I suspect that with attitudes like that-you might not be around LGF for long.

As for me-you're in scrollover country from now on.

I agree that it's creepy, WM. In fact, it goes way past creepy if we're talking of butchering political prisoners.

That said, imagine your kid - or anyone's kid - needs an organ to live, the only one available is from an executed criminal. Do we let it go to waste?

No, I don't have an answer. But I suspect the difference is, at least in part, whether the person is killed for the organs or if they are a mere byproduct of an otherwise justifiable execution anyway.

452 Tom Kratman  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 4:53:58pm

re: #447 THX-42

Maybe I missed it in Justice Kennedy's ruling (or in this very long thread), but exactly which authoritative source did he use for his statement that "there is a national consensus against capital punishment for the crime of child rape"?

That most states don't have it, though most once did. It's not an indefensible position to take, actually.

That said, there are a number of crimes one can quite lawfully use deadly force to defend oneself against: Rape, robbery, arson, murder, burglary...the common law felonies, basically. It seems to me not unreasonable that if one can kill to defend against these crimes, the state, acting on your behalf, can kill to deter or avenge them. (Yeah, nobody likes the notion of justice as vengeance. But you know what; we have historically ceded our interest in revenge to the courts, and upheld that cession, because the courts would avenge us. If they won't...)

453 Wilderstad  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 5:01:56pm

The SCOTUS and many of us in society have become blinded to the rabid in our midst. You don't allow them the least possibility of freedom to infect or bite others. There is no cure, they are terminal.

454 Eagle  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 5:46:32pm

re: #399 kywrite


That's why freedom of speech is so damned important -- it encourages people to bring up things, good or bad. Lances out the infections, brings the cockroaches out where they can be squashed, and gets those with brilliant insights into the open where they can illuminate the rest of us. Whether it's legislated or peer-pressure-caused, discouraging free speech harms us all in ways we don't even see.

/soapbox

Brilliant post.

Not sure where I stand on this. Especially after contrasting your posts (and xenon23, and redheadredstate) with #159 reine.de.tout (and the general atmosphere on this thread).

Thats one big reason I love LGF. With these type of topics, I know there will be dissenting opinions from the posters at LGF. I know I will learn something on threads like this. I learn more on some LGF threads than a year of watching the MSM news

At LGF, we do not all think alike, but we all think.

Thanks for bringing it all up.

455 yehoshua  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 6:00:36pm

But weren't the majority of U.S. Supreme Court judges appointed by Republicans? And weren't Republican appointed judges part of the Calif. Supreme Ctourt majority that legalized gay marriage in California? Courts are corrupting of the judges who preside over them.

456 NomadOfNorad  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 6:05:36pm

re: #222 taxfreekiller

this court is the child of the rape of America by the msm

I nominate this, or a close paraphrase of it, for rotating title. I.e.:

"Declaring the SCOTUS as the child of the rape of America by the MainStream Media."

457 jayfen  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 6:40:03pm

I haven't the time to read the comments yet, but I wanted to weigh in on the topic. I think that it is not a bad decision. I can't say so by any legal reasoning; I just think that if the perverted scum who do these crimes knew they could face death if caught have one more reason in their deranged minds to kill the victims. If anyone remembers Joseph Wambaugh's "The Onion Field", the reason the two burglers killed the police officer, and attempted to kill the other is because they thought the Lindberg Law for kidnapping was still in force.

The second reason is because I am generally against capital punishment. I certainly wouldn't want the death penalty for killing
a scumbag who did this to my child.

458 NomadOfNorad  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 6:45:00pm

re: #348 bombarafat

To quote the good doctor:
"The stench from the bench is making me clench"

Rotating title!

459 NomadOfNorad  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 6:47:44pm

re: #349 Ms. Right

While the crime this bastard committed goes beyond digusting, horrendous, evil... I can't think of enough awful word to describe the act and this monster... Life inprisonment may SEEM like leniency, but it's not. Death by lethal injection would be an act of mercy. One which the bastard doesn't deserve, IMHO.

Re: #334: If not executing them, perhaps chemical sterilization or neutering? Committing a sexual assault/abuse against a child is usually not a one-time occurance. Child molesters are not cured. So, therefore, shouldn't they be neutralized? In one way or another?

I cam up with an idea I came up with a number of years ago, which seems to be more science-fictiony than practical, but... who knows, maybe they could implement it in a few years:

Implant a small device into the rapists' groin that gives them an electric shock every time they have an erection.

460 yesandno  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 6:50:18pm

The news stated today that the breakdown on the vote was by party. But that isn't accurate really. Most of the Supremes were selected by Republicans. That alone doesn't make them Conservatives. There are four Conservatives on the Court, period. The remainder may be Republican or Democrat...no mind, they are Centrist and Liberal. It may be a Republican majority, but it is not a Conservative one.

Second....the history of the death penaltly in the country certainly was no limited just to murder at the beginning. Now we take a very narrow view that a life is for a life...no accounting for the fact that the bastard did take the life of his step-daughter, even is she still breathes. As Ed Whelan posted at the NRO Corner today:

Warning: The facts are graphic and awful. Kennedy (not the justice) was charged with the aggravated rape of L.H., his then-8-year-old stepdaughter. When police found L.H. some two hours after the attack, she was bleeding profusely from the vaginal area. She was transported to the hospital, where she was discovered to have a laceration to the left wall of the vagina that “separated her cervix from the back of her vagina, causing her rectum to protrude into the vaginal structure. Her entire perineum was torn from the posterior fourchette to the anus. The injuries required emergency surgery.” Shortly after he committed the rape, Kennedy called a colleague to ask “how to get blood out of a white carpet because his daughter had ‘just become a lady.’”

And from Judge Alito:

2. Alito makes mincemeat of Kennedy’s claim that rape of a child cannot be compared to murder in its moral depravity and in the severity of injury to the victim and the public. Among his observations (see dissent at 20-23): “I have very little doubt that, in the eyes of ordinary Americans, the very worst child rapists—predators who seek out and inflict serious physical and emotional injury on defenseless young children—are the epitome of moral depravity.”

The death penalty doesn't appear to be out of proportion here.

461 NomadOfNorad  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 6:58:34pm

re: #384 ronaldusmagnus

I just finished reading the opinion.

The rape occurred in 1998. The girl was 8 years old. Today she is 18.
If she is still in the area, then her day is being bombarded with details of her nightmare throughout the MSM.

God bless you L.H., wherever you are.

In short, those five justices just raped her. Again.

462 NomadOfNorad  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 7:05:02pm

re: #404 xenon23

secrets keep us sick and the truth will set us free!

Rotating title!

463 Dirk Diggler  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 7:13:35pm

If I ever caught this guy Kennedy (the child rapist in the case, NOT the Supreme Court justice) I think I'd take great patience and pleasure in torturing him.

As for SCOTUS and this atrocious decision, Mark Levin said it best over at The Corner: "Every time the Supreme Court meets behind closed doors, they're holding their own constitutional convention and rewriting that document at will". I can't wait until our robed avatars "interpret" the 2nd Amendment and "divine" the intent of the Founding Fathers in Heller vs. District of Columbia.. All us slack jawed yocals in flyover country are simply incapable of understanding the inherently complex and indecipherable language of "The right of individuals to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed".

464 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 7:15:21pm

re: #361 xenon23

Thanks

Well I hope I do not get kick of LGF for not going with the mass opinion on this one. I don't want to upset the balance.

I will add one thing to my first statement. If the dad or mom of a child that was raped killed the rapist I would not put that mom or dad on trial for murder.

I've been back and forth on the death penalty. I have on occasion tried to figure out what I would do if I was on a jury hearing a death penalty case - could I, in good conscience, do whatever it was I needed to do to put someone to death? I'm not certain that I could.

But there are certain crimes that are just so heinous, they are beyond evil, and in those cases, I think the death penalty is justified. Tim McVeigh's bombing of that building in Okla City is one of those - my daughter was about 2, about the same age as the little girl in that photo, being carried by the fireman. That little girl died. I cried and cried over that.

Another one - that creep who kidnapped, molested over a period of several days, and then buried alive 9-year old Jessica Lunsford.

And the other creep who killed a family, kidnapped a young boy and his sister, then molested and killed the boy in full view of the sister.

Some crimes are just so twisted and awful, it's beyond description. For those who missed it earlier, I am including in this comment the description of this child's injuries:


An expert in pediatric forensic medicine testified that L. H.’s injuries were the most severe he had seen from a sexual assault in his four years of practice. A laceration to the left wall of the vagina had separated her cervix from the back of her vagina, causing her rectum to protrude into the vaginal structure. Her entire perineum was torn from the posterior fourchette to the anus. The injuries required emergency surgery
465 NomadOfNorad  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 7:16:25pm

re: #435 Kathleen

Regarding “...the evolving standards of decency that mark the progress of a maturing society.”

That had to be a typo. Surely they meant "...the evolving standards of indecency..."

LGF: Monitoring the evolving standards of indecency.

466 freedombilly  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 7:38:28pm

This Supreme Court is out of control! Everything that Kennedy sited as reasons for this decision are irrelevant. Not right. Not wrong. Irrelevant. This is a state issue.

Kennedy carped about a societal consensus or some mumbo jumbo like that. It's evidently not a consensus in Louisiana. Just because it may be one in the People's Republic of Maryland where I sadly reside doesn't mean that it is in Louisiana or any of the other four states that allow(ed) for this.

Alito's dissent was beautifully written. And he didn't even get into whether he agreed or disagreed. It is not relevant and he is smart enough to recognize that.

I've been saying for years that the Court is made up of four originalists, four liberal nutcases, and Kennedy. Make that five liberal nutcases. I thought I was done with that guy. Now I am officially done with him.

This country is a little scarier place than when I woke up this morning.

Long live the Constitution!

467 Goody  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 7:51:41pm

I urge everyone to read the dissent--it brilliantly demonstrates that the Court is playing a shell game--relying on the result of dicta in it's decision on the death penalty for rapists of adults (which discouraged state legislatures from including the death penalty for child rapists) to argue--"look--very few state's dictate death penalty for child rapists--and there's thus an evolving consensus against it." If it's unprincipled jurisprudence you're looking for, the majority has it for you.

Of course Mr. Obama--more political than even Mr. Clinton--saw the problem here--especially in light of the detainee decision ("what kind of Court do you want?). You hard-line conservatives out there--I realize McCain isn't your cup of tea, but just think of who his appointments will be (can you say "Hillary"?) Get busy!

468 FoolsMate  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 7:58:08pm

The most coherent argument I've heard against the death penalty for child rape is that such a law provides a perverse incentive for the rapist to murder the child. That is, the rapist, facing a penalty escalation from life in prison to execution, will more often leave the child alive, compared to when he faces execution either way. I don't know whether this is true in fact or not, but it is at least logical if child rapists generally perceive murdering the victim as maximizing their chances of avoiding penalty.

469 Macker  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 8:18:23pm

re: #124 lawhawk

Obama will have no such restrictions - he would love to stock the court with Ginsberg types.

Yeah, a Justice who sees nothing wrong with lowering the age of consent to 12.

Assholes. I pray they don't fuck up the 2nd Amendment tomorrow....

470 Goody  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 8:21:04pm

Foolsmate: Whether or not that's true, it has no relevance to the issue of whether it's cruel and unusual punishment--the issue before the Court. Your argument is a practical one--which everyone assumed was properly addressed by the legislative branch until this majority decided that all issues were up to them.

471 Alberta Oil Peon  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 8:27:57pm

re: #45 jackflash

OK, take a deep breath and let's talk about this. The reason they stopped giving the death penalty for rape in the 1960s (as I remember - I was just a teenager) was because they didn't want to give an incentive to the rapist to kill the girl. If you rape a kid and the penalty is death if you're caught, you might as well kill the kid afterward to eliminate the witness that can put on the gallows. That's the reasoning, not that rape is in some sense a lesser offense.

Oh, for f***'s sake! Canada has not had the death penalty since the early 1960s, and rapists and child molesters still murder their victims to avoid detection. All the liberal talking heads, pushing to ban capital punishment, would say, "You'll see a lot more guilty pleas, and less court time wasted on interminable appeals by murderers, because without their life on the line, it won't matter as much to them." Bullshit. We still get interminable appeals on rinky-dink procedural matters, and we still get lifers like Clifford Olson perennially exercising their right to a release hearing under the "faint hope" clause, at great expense to the poor suffering taxpayer.

Once an executed murderer is pushing up thistles, he/she ceases to be a burden on the taxpayer.

472 Timbre  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 8:28:42pm
“...the evolving standards of decency that mark the progress of a maturing society.”

No, Justice, what you are now part of is a declining standard of justice. If predators can brutalize (and I mean brutal in every sense of the word) and you are more concerned about being decent to the predator, then you have entered (possibly long ago) a truly upside-down world.

My only concern about the death penalty is using it in cases where there is little evidence and no DNA evidence. Putting an innocent person to death is unacceptable. But in cases such as this, where the guilt of the predator is not even questioned--he should be executed.

473 newton  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 8:45:05pm

re: #469 Macker

The Supreme Court will probably emasculate the Second Amendment, too.

If recent history tells us...

Sickening.

I hope enough parents are outraged enough to send that "Justice" a message.

474 freedombilly  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 8:48:18pm

re: #470 Goody

Foolsmate: Whether or not that's true, it has no relevance to the issue of whether it's cruel and unusual punishment--the issue before the Court. Your argument is a practical one--which everyone assumed was properly addressed by the legislative branch until this majority decided that all issues were up to them.

Amen!

475 newton  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 8:59:07pm

Well, I guess we might have to dust off that old Grisham masterpiece of his... A Time to Kill.

476 FoolsMate  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 9:13:19pm

re: #470 Goody
We agree that this issue was not the one before the Court and that the death penalty for child rape is cruel or unusual punishment, either. I also want to clarify that I was not using "incentive to murder" to make an informed argument for or against the death penalty for child rape or in support of Kennedy's decision. Your reply made it sound as if I was, although I would not do so without specific objective data supporting the argument I heard from a friend. This is most likely due to my failure to add caveats and disclaimers, which sadly, is becoming more and more necessary to prevent others from putting words in my mouth. I was hoping to prod someone in law enforcement or with specific knowledge to comment on whether that was true or not.

477 Alberta Oil Peon  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 9:27:38pm

re: #451 Tom Kratman

I agree that it's creepy, WM. In fact, it goes way past creepy if we're talking of butchering political prisoners.

That said, imagine your kid - or anyone's kid - needs an organ to live, the only one available is from an executed criminal. Do we let it go to waste?

No, I don't have an answer. But I suspect the difference is, at least in part, whether the person is killed for the organs or if they are a mere byproduct of an otherwise justifiable execution anyway.

The difference is due process. Which China doesn't have, and the U.S.A. does. (Although today's Supreme Court decision gives one pause to wonder.)

478 Ackomanyuki  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 9:46:53pm

Child rapist, abandoned mine in coal country, and dynamite....some assembly required.

479 Ackomanyuki  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 9:51:06pm

re: #450 Pantera


The child's soul was murdered.....how's that for equivocation?

480 reinman60  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 10:15:48pm
“When the law punishes by death, it risks its own sudden descent into brutality, transgressing the constitutional commitment to decency and restraint,” Justice Kennedy wrote.

Justice Kennedy and judicial restraint... never heard those two mentioned in the the same sentence.

481 Fistjab  Wed, Jun 25, 2008 10:17:30pm

Hate to break it to you guys but obama is not in favor of this decision.
[Link: politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...]

Maybe a credit where it is due? naa too reasonable!

482 RoseSpice  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 4:02:08am

Can anything be more heinous that a so-called "judge" who refuses Justice to his own community?
Can it be more barbaric, twisted and perverted, than giving the most violent of criminals a FREE RIDE - in the name of "decency"?

Meanwhile, the refusal to punish these criminals retains the blood of the victims on the hands of those responsible for Justice. Eternity will tell us if the "justices" enjoy the paying that penalty due, themselves. One day, if Justice doesn't meet them on this earth, they will certainly meet Him in Eternity, where it will be too late to utter meaningless phrases of repentance and cries for mercy. Some of them will wish they had done something with the power they enjoyed on earth, that would have built them a treasure in Heaven.

483 RoseSpice  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 4:17:02am

Find a case of rape, child or otherwise, where they did NOT hang the man.

The Founding Fathers didn't SAY anything about it - there was NOTHING to say, and still is not. You do what is right, by the victim and the community.

Period.

Only ones who don't feel that way are the clods who are busy implementing the 1950 's Stalinist Agenda For The Destruction of America, published in the Congressional Record on January 10, 1963.

I don't appreciate living in a nation with their ENABLERS.

As someone above noted, that is a total violation of the compact between human beings in a common Society.
It destroys the foundation of the bonds of providing a THRIVING and HEALTHY community. It destroys the integrity of community that is vital to survivability.

Such "judges" deserve the full wrath of the community they have violated, and NOT merely their scorn.

484 RoseSpice  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 4:22:52am

#477, one person received a transplant from a murdered woman, in which there was ZERO evidence of who killed her.

The transplant patient began to have visions and dreams of the murder which proved in fact to be 100% accurate, and led to solid evidence that convicted the murderer. TRUE STORY.

Do you really want your child to have a transplant from a convicted CRIMINAL? In light of these visions and dreams that were verified?

Maybe you should take your child to Lakeland, Florida, instead!

485 RoseSpice  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 4:26:57am

The issue now before the United States is whether they are ready to accede to the total removal of the Constitution, in favor of Judicial Oligarchy.

Period.

They've been doing it step by step for over 45 years.


America, what will your answer be?

486 Alibaba  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:04:58am

It's all about the Courts - which are no longer co-equal but have turned into legislators. In Louisiana they must go back and rewrite the law. Anthony Kennedy just wants to be "loved".re: #3 Atoz

487 Alibaba  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:05:31am

re: #485 RoseSpice

If america elects B. Hussen Obama, you know what the answer is!

488 Alibaba  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:07:02am

re: #473 newton

Ruth Buzzy Ginsberg, David the Bacholor Souter, Bryer, and the ancient Stevens and now, Anthony Kennedy! What disgraces these five are.

489 Alibaba  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:09:25am

Eventually many of the ones who murder - think of the Klass case and the Jessica Lundren case in Florida- are caught. I think people who assault children simply do not care. Period. And they never think that they can be caught or punished.re: #468 FoolsMate

490 ducktrapper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:47:23am

The guy won't last a year in jail unless he is held in solitary 23 hours a day. He'll either be dead or wish he was very shortly.

491 anubis_soundwave  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 9:51:01am

re: #475 newton

Well, I guess we might have to dust off that old Grisham masterpiece of his... A Time to Kill.

The sad part is that Grisham's not even a fan of the death penalty (if you had read his other books).

= = =

By all means, verify that the guilty party is in fact guilty; then bring back the guilliotine.

"Some criminals just need killin'...." This clown was trash of the lowest order, his life of value only to God himself. Remove him and others like him from the genepool

I wonder what happened to the attackers of Melissa McLaughlin.... I read that at least one was executed(or will be) elsewhere. (Google/Yahoo! her name. Her death and the NAACP's subsequent meddling is why I cut my psychological ties with them.)

/and some wonder why DEATH NOTE is such an intriguing concept. Or Batman/the Punisher/Spawn/insert crimefighting vigilante here....

492 RoseSpice  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 11:33:01pm

re #487 Alibaba

Same exactly as if we elect McCain. Not saying a word GOOD about Obama - UGH! I PROMISE!

BUT! -
Name some Conservatives who will enshrine the McCain portfolio. Think about it:

McCain Feingold Thompson, etc etc etc...
McCain Kennedy Shamnesty - he's promised to SIGN comprehensive immigration reform in January 2009 - guess which one!

The GITMO ruling out a few days ago - PRECISELY WHAT WAS DEMANDED BY McCAIN FOR SEVERAL YEARS - he wants GITMO dismantled, remember HIS outcry against Abu Ghraib, and his ongoing demands to give a crash course in anti-torture instruction to America and to the American Military --- he wants those GITMO Terrorists trials in civilian courts to be up to the ACLU STANDARDS, remember?

Don't believe ME, check back columns of Ann Coulter and George Will and a half dozen other reputeable Conservative columnists - I'll give you references if you want them.

Oh, he has also promised to protect Roe V Wade as SETTLED LAW because it is now "over 30 years old"!

Don't you think it is strange that he already came out endorsing the Gun Rights ruling - and still hasn't commented on THIS ONE?

I live too close to the Border - I ain't fooled by his talk - I SEE "THE WALK" from my house! A man with Jerry Perenchio and Juan Hernandez, both of the Reconquistas, on his staff - he can kiss my royal enchiladas!

493 RoseSpice  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 11:37:35pm

Re #488 Alibaba

You are right - and all five should be impeached and charged with Treason for attempting to overthrow the Constitution and set up an Oligarchy!

Make them live the rest of their lives in the same cells with child molesters, then they can tell us about this "maturing dignity" baloney they have based their ruling on.


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