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Michael Behe and Crank Science

Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 12:35:16 pm PDT

I was actually searching for something related to a Linux programming trick, when I stumbled on this interesting article (from 10 years ago but sadly still relevant) by University of Chicago Professor Jerry Coyne about the deceptive tactics employed by Discovery Institute advocate Michael Behe: Boston Review: Is Darwin in the Details? A Debate - More Crank Science.

Behe’s arguments, like those of Biblical creationists, are heavily larded with quotations from evolutionists, many taken out of context to make it seem that our field is riven with self-doubt. More than anything else, it is this use of selective quotation that shows Behe’s close kinship to his religious predecessors.

I am painfully and personally acquainted with Behe’s penchant for fiddling with quotations. On page 29 of Darwin’s Black Box he writes:

Jerry Coyne, of the Department of Ecology and Evolution at the University of Chicago, arrives at an unanticipated verdict: “We conclude—unexpectedly—that there is little evidence for the neo-Darwinian view: its theoretical foundations and the experimental evidence supporting it are weak.”
Apparently I am one of those faint-hearted biologists who see the errors of Darwinism but cannot admit it. This was news to me. I am surely numbered among the more orthodox evolutionists, and hardly see our field as fatally flawed. The paper in question (actually by Allen Orr and myself) addresses a technical debate among evolutionists: are adaptations based on a lot of small genetic mutations (the traditional neo-Darwinian view), a few big mutations, or some mixture of the two? We concluded that although there was not much evidence one way or the other, there were indications that mutations of large effect might occasionally be important. Our paper cast no doubt whatever on the existence of evolution or the ability of natural selection to explain adaptations.

I went back to see exactly what Orr and I had written. It turns out that, in the middle of our sentence, Behe found a period that wasn’t there. Here’s the full citation, placed in its context:

Although a few biologists have suggested an evolutionary role for mutations or large effect (Gould 1980; Maynard Smith 1983: Gottlieb, 1984; Turner, 1985), the neo-Darwinian view has largely triumphed, and the genetic basis of adaptation now receives little attention. Indeed, the question is considered so dead that few may know the evidence responsible for its demise.

Here we review this evidence. We conclude—unexpectedly—that there is little evidence for the neo-Darwinian view: its theoretical foundations and the experimental evidence supporting it are weak, and there is no doubt that mutations of large effect are sometimes important in adaptation.

We hasten to add, however, that we are not “macromutationists” who believe that adaptations are nearly always based on major genes. The neo-Darwinian view could well be correct. It is almost certainly true, however, that some adaptations involve many genes of small effect and others involve major genes. The question we address is, How often does adaptation involve a major gene? We hope to encourage evolutionists to reexamine this neglected question and to provide the evidence to settle it.

By inserting the period (and removing the sentence from its neighbors), Behe has twisted our meaning. Our discussion of one aspect of Darwinism—the relative size of adaptive mutations—has suddenly become a critique of the entire Darwinian enterprise. This is not sloppy scholarship, but deliberate distortion.

Perhaps I unduly belabor this point, but we know what they say about God and the details. Can anyone who alters quotations be trusted to give an unbiased view of the scientific data?

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1 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:38:39pm

ID = Intelligent Dowdification

2 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:38:55pm

Heh, stirring the waters again Charles?.

I don't think anyone wants to touch this as I have modified this post 4 times already.

3 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:40:31pm

An interactive map of the Disco Institute......

Theocracy Now!


Focus on Intelligent Design -- both the billionaire bankrollers and their scientist shills.
4 Ben Hur  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:40:33pm

How 'bout a Ciao Darwin thread?

5 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:41:04pm

It's a classic case of quote mining. It never ceases to amaze me how much these folks (YECs and IDers) have in common with liberals.

6 godfrey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:41:32pm

Yep, this is a clear distortion and sloppy scholarship.

7 HugoChavez  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:41:35pm

Te Hell with scientific research. Kill all the Zionists, Capitalists and other Fascist pigs today.

We can talk Science tomorrow.

8 godfrey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:42:22pm

re: #7 HugoChavez

We can talk Science tomorrow.

At gunpoint. Eh, Hugo?

9 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:43:06pm
This is not sloppy scholarship, but deliberate distortion.

Just like the butchered Darwin quote used in Expelled. Darwin was speaking out against eugenics but Ben inverted the meaning. It's dishonest, aren't they claiming to be morally superior?

10 HugoChavez  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:43:57pm

re: #8 godfrey

At gunpoint. Eh, Hugo?

But only the RIGHT people will be alive then, so no need for guns, correcto my Zionist friend?

11 debutaunt  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:44:29pm

re: #8 godfrey

At gunpoint. Eh, Hugo?

Thugo has some attitude.

12 bosforus  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:45:41pm
13 godfrey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:46:30pm

re: #10 HugoChavez

No need for Science in Yourtopia either, Herr Hugo!

14 vxbush  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:46:32pm

re: #9 Killgore Trout

Just like the butchered Darwin quote used in Expelled. Darwin was speaking out against eugenics but Ben inverted the meaning. It's dishonest, aren't they claiming to be morally superior?

Totally separate from Expelled, but I was under the impression that the first edition of Darwin's book included support for the ascent of "white man" over "black man." Or something similar.

Am I mistaken? I thought later editions of the book got rid of these chapters.

15 Ben Hur  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:46:36pm

re: #5 Honorary Yooper

It's a classic case of quote mining. It never ceases to amaze me how much these folks (YECs and IDers) have in common with liberals.

Panda thumb?

16 wrenchwench  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:46:38pm

Oddly enough, I posted a comment on "intelligent design" before it was fashionable, back in 2007, and it had to do with periods too. Since then, I have managed to stay quiet on the subject, aside from a few "dings."

17 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:47:08pm

re: #7 HugoChavez

T[o] Hell with scientific research.

You don't really mean that, Hugo. Without science, how will you build the future Miss Venezuelas?

18 godfrey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:47:18pm

Is Maureen Dowd still single?

19 DavidM01  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:47:26pm

This seems pretty dishonest from Behe, but the life-from-random-nothingness crowd has a lot of theories with little proof to explain the origins of life.

Go find some abiogenesis evidence and then I will listen to the time+soup = life arguments. Until then its adherents use just as much faith as people who believe in a Creator or outside force.

20 godfrey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:48:00pm

re: #17 Occasional Reader

Um, let's just derive them all from her, if you, um, don't mind.

21 XMarine  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:48:06pm

These creationists, who claim to be so holy and heavenly, are really some of the most dishonest and devious people one may have the misfortune to encounter. Their dishonesty and hypocrisy reminds me a bit of the more fanatical followers of the ROP who claim to be sitting at the right hand of the Creator, though the creationists are not in the habit of murdering children ...

Actually creationists are the best friends of the enemies of the Free World given their attempts to undermine the education of our children.

22 rawmuse  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:48:16pm

re: #17 Occasional Reader

dayummmm

23 BignJames  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:48:40pm

re: #16 wrenchwench

There will probably be "mass dingings" later.

24 godfrey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:48:43pm

re: #19 DavidM01

To get life from soup, all you need to do is leave it on the counter for a few weeks.

25 WhiteRasta  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:48:58pm

re: #17 Occasional Reader

Oh Lord have mercy! What a beauty!

26 sngnsgt  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:49:15pm

"I was for the gun ban before I was against it."

27 Ben Hur  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:49:20pm

re: #22 rawmuse

I swear I was just gonna type the EXACT thing in the EXACT way.

28 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:49:48pm

re: #16 wrenchwench

Oddly enough, I posted a comment on "intelligent design" before it was fashionable, back in 2007, and it had to do with periods too. Since then, I have managed to stay quiet on the subject, aside from a few "dings."

It is indeed a rather puzzling design choice. Kind of like, for us men, why certain parts of us that are utterly necessary for the propagation of the species are delicately suspended and altogether too vulnerable!

29 Ben Hur  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:49:59pm

re: #27 Ben Hur

I swear I was just gonna type the EXACT thing in the EXACT way.


Maybe one or two less "Ms" just in case the Big Guy calls in on oaths today.

30 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:50:21pm

re: #20 godfrey

Um, let's just derive them all from her, if you, um, don't mind.

Agreed. We can even use the brain from Abbie Normal, I don't care.

31 chupa  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:50:22pm

Charles,

It's refreshing to see so much evolution on your site. You should really check out Panda's Thumb if you haven't seen it before.

[Link: www.pandasthumb.org...]

The science talk there is incredible, and many well known scientists post frequently in the comment sections. It's a great place to learn about the most exciting advances in evolution as well as explicit rebuttals of all the ID tripe that gets thrown out. The verbal beatdowns of IDiots in the comment sections are almost always priceless.

32 vxbush  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:50:26pm

re: #14 vxbush

Totally separate from Expelled, but I was under the impression that the first edition of Darwin's book included support for the ascent of "white man" over "black man." Or something similar.

Am I mistaken? I thought later editions of the book got rid of these chapters.

Ah--it was his second book, The Descent of Man, that I'm thinking of. Wikipedia doesn't support my poor memory on this.

I retract my statement.

33 Glackinspeil  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:50:48pm

I think I'm so sophisticated, 'cause I'm living my life like a good homo sapiens
But all around me everybody's multiplying, and they're walking round like flies, man
So I'm no better than the animals sitting in the cages in the zoo, man
'cause compared to the flowers and the birds and the trees -- I am an apeman

I think I'm so educated and I'm so civilized 'cause I'm a strict vegetarian
And with the over population, and inflation and starvation, and the crazy politicians
I don't feel safe in this world no more, I don't want to die in a nuclear war
I want to sail away to a distant shore, and make like an apeman

I'm an apeman
I'm an ape, apeman
Oh, I'm an apeman

I'm a king-kong man
I'm a voodoo man
Oh, I'm an apeman

'cause compared to the sun that sits in the sky
Compared to the clouds as they roll by
Compared to the bugs and the spiders and flies
I am an apeman.

La la la la...

In man's evolution he's created the city and the motor traffic rumble
But give me half a chance and I'd be taking off my clothes and living in the jungle
'cause the only time that I feel at ease is swinging up and down in a coconut tree
Oh what a life of luxury -- to be like an apeman

I'm an apeman
I'm an ape, apeman
Oh, I'm an apeman

I'm a king-kong man
I'm a voodoo man
Oh, I'm an apeman

I look out the window, but I can't see the sky
The air pollution is a-fogging up my eyes
I want to get out of this city alive
And make like an apeman

La la la la...

Come on and love me -
Be my apeman girl
And we'd be so happy -
In my apeman world

I'm an apeman
I'm an ape, apeman
Oh, I'm an apeman

I'm a king-kong man
I'm a voodoo man
Oh, I'm an apeman

I'll be your Tarzan and you'll be my Jane
I'll keep you warm and you'll keep me sane
We'll sit in the trees and eat bananas all day
Just like an apeman

I'm an apeman
I'm an ape, apeman
Oh, I'm an apeman

I'm a king-kong man
I'm a voodoo man
Oh, I'm an apeman

I don't feel safe in this world no more, I don't want to die in a nuclear war
I want to sail away to a distant shore, and make like an apeman

34 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:51:22pm

re: #22 rawmuse

dayummmm

The finest Dow Corning products money can buy!

SCIENCE!

35 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:51:40pm
36 Ben Hur  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:51:41pm

re: #31 chupa


I noticed "pandas thumb" a little higher up in the thread.

What's the deal?

Is someone questioning why panda's have thumbs?

37 akak  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:52:03pm

Would all Christian converts report to the office please, follow the signs.
As always this message from management is mandatory.

38 godfrey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:52:05pm

By the way, it should be needless to say that isolating this single example of selective quotation and distortion from Behe's work is also probably a distortion. Are you all going to judge all of his work on the basis of this single example? Surely not.

That said, he's being called out and should address it.

39 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:52:19pm

re: #25 WhiteRasta

Oh Lord have mercy! What a beauty!

All in favor of liberating Venezuela, raise your hands.

(Hey, I said HANDS.)

40 Glackinspeil  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:52:23pm

Im a fleabit peanut monkey
All my friends are junkies
Thats not really true

Im a cold italian pizza
I could use a lemon squeezer
What you do?

But Ive been bit and Ive been tossed around
By every she-rat in this town
Have you, babe?

Well, I am just a monkey man
Im glad you are a monkey woman too

I was bitten by a boar
I was gouged and I was gored
But I pulled on through

Yes, Im a sack of broken eggs
I always have an unmade bed
Dont you?

Well, I hope were not too messianic
Or a trifle too satanic
We love to play the blues

Well I am just a monkey man
Im glad you are a monkey, monkey woman too, babe

Im a monkey
Im a monkey
Im a monkey man
Im a monkey man
Im a monkey...

41 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:53:00pm

I have yet to see it in writing but I heard that Spain has given civil rights to apes... kinda ridiculous no?

42 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:53:48pm

re: #14 vxbush


Totally separate from Expelled, but I was under the impression that the first edition of Darwin's book included support for the ascent of "white man" over "black man." Or something similar.


I have no doubt that certain people have made that claim to back up their dishonest agenda but I serious doubt it's true. Darwin on race and slavery

He was very outspoken on the issue.

43 opnion  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:54:12pm

re: #18 godfrey

Is Maureen Dowd still single?


No victim yet.

44 vxbush  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:54:25pm

re: #38 godfrey

By the way, it should be needless to say that isolating this single example of selective quotation and distortion from Behe's work is also probably a distortion. Are you all going to judge all of his work on the basis of this single example? Surely not.

That said, he's being called out and should address it.

I know that some of the Christians who write on this stuff are good of heart but simply haven't been taught the proper way to cite authors and the simple fact of checking and rechecking quotes. It's basic to scientific writing, but unfortunately some folks don't understand how important it is to be completely up front, honest, and triple-fact-checked in their work.

45 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:54:39pm
46 godfrey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:54:51pm

re: #39 Occasional Reader

They have nothing to lose but their sujetadors!

47 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:55:03pm

Why must we say God is here and science is over here? Because we are all a bunch of dumb f*cks, that's why.

48 Charles  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:55:28pm

re: #38 godfrey

By the way, it should be needless to say that isolating this single example of selective quotation and distortion from Behe's work is also probably a distortion. Are you all going to judge all of his work on the basis of this single example? Surely not.

That said, he's being called out and should address it.

It's a pretty well-documented creationist tactic, and this is far from the only example of it. There's actually a project to keep track of all the distortions:

[Link: www.talkorigins.org...]

49 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:55:54pm

re: #45 buzzsawmonkey

I don't know; Koslings can vote.

I'd rather be governed by monkeys. Dr Zaius! Dr, Zaius!

50 vxbush  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:56:03pm

re: #42 Killgore Trout

I have no doubt that certain people have made that claim to back up their dishonest agenda but I serious doubt it's true. Darwin on race and slavery

He was very outspoken on the issue.

I retracted earlier, although I would like to have a chance to read a first edition, just out of curiosity.

51 coquimbojoe  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:56:14pm

re: #28 Occasional Reader

It is indeed a rather puzzling design choice. Kind of like, for us men, why certain parts of us that are utterly necessary for the propagation of the species are delicately suspended and altogether too vulnerable!

I know I keep stepping on mine.....

52 Ben Hur  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:56:20pm

Goal!

Spain 1-Russia 0

53 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:56:48pm

I believe in God and evolution, that pretty much leaves me with no friends.

54 godfrey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:56:54pm

re: #48 Charles

Glad to hear it. Shame on them.

55 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:56:56pm

re: #35 NJDhockeyfan

Heh.

56 rawmuse  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:57:13pm

re: #21 XMarine

Not all creationists are evil, some are just not very inquisitive. I have some relations who are all creationists (I am maybe the only one who is not) and they simply stopped learning about things. Case closed, in their opinion. They have busy lives, doing lots of good things that you would all approve. This topic is simply not foremost in their lives.

57 debutaunt  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:57:16pm

re: #36 Ben Hur

I noticed "pandas thumb" a little higher up in the thread.

What's the deal?

Is someone questioning why panda's have thumbs?

I go right past hitchhikers.

58 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:57:20pm

re: #41 Peacekeeper

I have yet to see it in writing but I heard that Spain has given civil rights to apes... kinda ridiculous no?

Un planeta donde las monos se evolucionaron de los hombres?! Es un manicomio... UN MANICOMIO!

59 jcm  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:57:48pm

re: #51 coquimbojoe

I know I keep stepping on mine.....

With golf shoes.....

60 opnion  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:57:48pm

re: #53 Peacekeeper

I believe in God and evolution, that pretty much leaves me with no friends.


That is a rational conclusion.

61 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:57:58pm

You can draw a direct line from Darwin to Spanish Ape-men. Direct I tells ya!

62 godfrey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:58:07pm

re: #48 Charles

I wonder how often Behe does it, though. Good research project for history of science and philosophy of science types.

63 vxbush  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:58:13pm

re: #58 Occasional Reader

Un planeta donde las monos se evolucionaron de los hombres?! Es un manicomio... UN MANICOMIO!

You know, you're going to need to have surgery for that speech impediment.

/

64 Glackinspeil  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:58:13pm

You infidels are wasting your time studeeing sience. Allah can change the past present and futore whenever he want an all yoor sience is big waste of time

65 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:58:26pm

re: #45 buzzsawmonkey

Is this what you are thinking of?

Socialist Gov’t in Spain to Grant Great Apes “Human Rights”

Amnesty International is shocked that the governing socialists in Spain have put forward legislation to grant great apes ‘human rights’. The same government which stripped from unborn human children the right to life and permits destructive research on human embryos, has put forward legislation to grant great apes the rights the rights to life, freedom and to not being tortured, according to a report by Deutsche Presse-Agentur

66 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:58:37pm

re: #58 Occasional Reader

Un planeta donde las monos se evolucionaron de los hombres?! Es un manicomio... UN MANICOMIO!

MarioCoumo? Ay!

67 Ben Hur  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:58:50pm

re: #42 Killgore Trout


I'm sure his shirt was still made out of Southern Cotton.

68 Russkilitlover  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:59:09pm

re: #17 Occasional Reader

Well, what do you know? I have a doppleganger!

69 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:59:34pm

re: #58 Occasional Reader

Un planeta donde las monos se evolucionaron de los hombres?! Es un manicomio... UN MANICOMIO!

You just liked watching them hose Charleton down.

70 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 12:59:40pm

re: #53 Peacekeeper

I believe in God and evolution, that pretty much leaves me with no friends.

It's not because of that.

71 opnion  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:00:10pm

re: #64 Glackinspeil

You infidels are wasting your time studeeing sience. Allah can change the past present and futore whenever he want an all yoor sience is big waste of time


Behead those who be going for cyanace! inshallah!

72 godfrey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:00:31pm

re: #65 Bubblehead II

The legislation would prohibit the 'enslaving' of gorillas, chimpanzees, orangutans and bonobos.

There goes my low-cost staffing plans. Curses, you Spanish pansies!

73 bosforus  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:00:43pm

re: #52 Ben Hur

Goal!

Spain 1-Russia 0

YES!

74 Ben Hur  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:00:50pm

My thumbs, Charlie!

They took my thumbs!

75 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:00:58pm

re: #53 Peacekeeper

I believe in God and evolution, that pretty much leaves me with no friends.

I'm in the same boat there with you PK

76 Cygnus  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:01:17pm

Here we go again. I'm outta here. See y'all tomorrow.

77 opnion  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:02:00pm

re: #76 Cygnus

Here we go again. I'm outta here. See y'all tomorrow.


Get back here! Nobody leaves this room!

78 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:02:10pm

re: #74 Ben Hur

My thumbs, Charlie!

They took my thumbs!

Rings a bell... source?

79 bosforus  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:02:29pm

re: #53 Peacekeeper

I believe in God and evolution, that pretty much leaves me with no friends.

Awww, not true.

80 Ben Hur  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:02:35pm

re: #78 Occasional Reader

Rings a bell... source?


The Pope of Greenwich Village.

With the talented Roberts.

81 Dianna  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:02:51pm

re: #48 Charles

Good cite - that's a very fine and well maintained collection.

82 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:03:02pm
83 Ben Hur  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:03:08pm

I still want to know what's up with panda's having thumbs.

84 J.S.  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:03:09pm

There are actual (true) flashpoints (unresolved, debates) issues with respect to the theory of evolution. It's found in the academic literature. But these areas of debate are not at all related to what the pseudo-scientists purport are the "flashpoints." The pseudo-scientists' objectives are pretty transparent...(that is, their objective appears to be to destroy all of evolutionary theory -- to get rid of it -- and replace it with supernaturalism.)

85 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:03:32pm

re: #69 Peacekeeper

You just liked watching them hose Charleton down.

If he had snarled "get your filthy hose off me, you damn dirty ape!", the flick would have gotten an X rating.

86 debutaunt  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:03:33pm

re: #77 opnion

Get back here! Nobody leaves this room!

Get in line for a thumb count.

87 Dianna  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:03:36pm

re: #50 vxbush

Try Half Price Books. I've picked up some remarkable stuff there.

88 godfrey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:04:06pm

re: #65 Bubblehead II

It seems unwise to monkey around with rights like that. Without cheap ape labor, how will the Spanish deal with their plummeting human birth rates?

89 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:04:31pm

re: #83 Ben Hur

I still want to know what's up with panda's having thumbs.

Obviously, they haven't pissed off the Mob. (Yet.)

90 Dianna  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:04:42pm

re: #53 Peacekeeper

I believe in God and evolution, that pretty much leaves me with no friends.

I'm your friend, even if you will insist on teasing me unmercifully.

91 godfrey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:05:29pm

re: #82 buzzsawmonkey

We have no rights derived from our human nature?

92 lizardbennet  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:05:59pm

Hey! I just sprouted a tail!

Wait...

no, never mind......

93 formercorpsman  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:06:09pm

re: #82 buzzsawmonkey

I don't even get surpirsed anymore.

Now how do you defend an ape on the stand?

94 keithgabryelski  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:06:19pm

there are some decent youtube channels on these common tricks.

The most snide being:
Why do people laugh at creationists?
[Link: www.youtube.com...]
A 23 part series -- you don't need to watch them in order,
but they are all worthy.

and for straight-forward information packing goodness:
Foundational Falsehoods of Creationism series.
[Link: www.youtube.com...]
This one is better seen from first to last and there are
links to commentary on his website that expands on the
information given.

95 godfrey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:07:08pm

re: #93 formercorpsman

Now how do you defend an ape on the stand?

First, the world has to go bananas.

96 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:07:10pm

re: #28 Occasional Reader

It is indeed a rather puzzling design choice. Kind of like, for us
men, why certain parts of us that are utterly necessary for the
propagation of the species are delicately suspended and altogether too vulnerable!


That's God's way of evening the playing field for women, who are on average, not as strong as men.
/I said on average, ladies - please don't kill me.

97 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:07:11pm

From the WTF category.

DMV Offers 10,000 Replacement License Plates
re: #82 buzzsawmonkey

Right you are. It was PK who originally asked the question. I also agree with the rest of your response as well.

98 debutaunt  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:07:24pm

re: #93 formercorpsman

I don't even get surprised anymore.

Now how do you defend an ape on the stand?

I'd say 'diminished' frequently.

99 Glackinspeil  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:07:35pm

There is proof that the white man did not evolve. Was genetically bred "sixty-six hundred years ago" by an evil, big headed scientist named Mr. Yacub. Mr. Yacub, a muslim, started his careed in Mecca, but carried out his evil experiments on the island of Patos. This is where the white deviil comes from.
Source
Malcolm X and Alex Haley, Autobiography of Malcolm X, NY,NY: Ballantine, 1964, p168.

100 jcm  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:08:21pm

re: #75 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I'm in the same boat there with you PK

Me three.....

101 nikis-knight  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:08:25pm

I thought Behe's latest book was pretty good in parts, although I didn't really study it or even get a chance to finish it.
Anyone else read it, and have comments on the bits about malaria?

102 bosforus  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:08:29pm

re: #93 formercorpsman

I don't even get surpirsed anymore.

Now how do you defend an ape on the stand?

You get half way through your defense then break down and rock back and forth in the fetal position repeating "I did not go to law school to defend an ape. I did not go to law school to defend an ape."

103 Spenser (with an S)  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:08:33pm

re: #75 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

re: #53 Peacekeeper

I believe in God and evolution, that pretty much leaves me with no friends.

I'm in the same boat there with you PK

Count one more here. Plus the guy I spoke with at breakfast who's a Phd in Physics from MIT who is a strong believer while of course believing in a very old earth and evolution.

104 debutaunt  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:08:36pm

re: #99 Glackinspeil

There is proof that the white man did not evolve. Was genetically bred "sixty-six hundred years ago" by an evil, big headed scientist named Mr. Yacub. Mr. Yacub, a muslim, started his careed in Mecca, but carried out his evil experiments on the island of Patos. This is where the white deviil comes from.
Source
Malcolm X and Alex Haley, Autobiography of Malcolm X, NY,NY: Ballantine, 1964, p168.

Malcom was a big old kidder.

105 opnion  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:08:45pm

re: #93 formercorpsman

I don't even get surpirsed anymore.

Now how do you defend an ape on the stand?

I think that apes can be rather dictatorial. They like Banana Republics.
sorry

106 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:08:50pm

re: #88 godfrey

I am sure the followers of the RoP will remidy that solution.

107 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:09:08pm

re: #93 formercorpsman

I don't even get surpirsed anymore.

Now how do you defend an ape on the stand?

Law & Order: Simian Defense Unit

108 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:09:15pm

re: #97 Bubblehead II

From the WTF category.

DMV Offers 10,000 Replacement License Plates

Now there's some intelligent design. :-P

/If I had plates like that, I'd consider just keeping them for the hell of it.

109 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:10:33pm

The thing with Planet of the Apes was you had a man, an astronaut, the very pinnacle of civilization subjected to humiliation by a bunch of religious fanatic apes. In the end he thinks he has freed himself and humiliated the apes only to be confronted with the truth that his great civilization is extinct.

110 Ben Hur  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:10:46pm

re: #107 Occasional Reader

You know, you're a funny guy!

111 Russkilitlover  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:11:03pm

re: #108 Honorary Yooper

Now there's some intelligent design. :-P

/If I had plates like that, I'd consider just keeping them for the hell of it.

LOL! North Carolina: First in Flight, last to catch on to modern vernacular!

112 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:12:03pm

re: #93 formercorpsman


Now how do you defend an ape on the stand?

There's been some preliminary work done in that field.

(couldn't find a transcript of this hilarious Flip Wilson routine, sorry)

113 godfrey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:12:11pm

re: #109 Peacekeeper

Extinct? Then what does he do? Hook up with some hominid hottie and breed a better bonobo?

114 J.S.  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:12:28pm

re: #14 vxbush

The concept of "race" was used throughout the nineteenth century -- long before Darwin came on the scene. There's a interesting article written about Darwin's contributions to modernity...link here. Darwin did more to abolish the underpinnings of typical racist ideology (that's based on "typology" and invariance)...please read the article, I think you'll find it's well worth your while.

115 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:12:34pm

re: #103 Spenser (with an S)

Count one more here. Plus the guy I spoke with at breakfast who's a Phd in Physics from MIT who is a strong believer while of course believing in a very old earth and evolution.

So on these threads I never know whether to cheer Charles on or tell him he's fulla sh*t.

116 Ben Hur  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:12:44pm

I saw a Virginia plate yesterday I think for the first time.

It's motto says: Fight Terrorism.

I was so shocked I stopped, went around back to double check the other plate.

117 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:12:45pm

re: #110 Ben Hur

You know, you're a funny guy!

What, like I'm some kind of clown? Like I'm here to entertain you?

118 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:12:50pm

Lah di dah...doo doo doo...dee dee dee...whistling softly...walks past.

119 bosforus  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:12:52pm

I hate every ape I see,
From chimpan-A to chimpan-Z.

120 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:13:03pm

re: #83 Ben Hur

I still want to know what's up with panda's having thumbs.

OK, pandas have a "thumb". This thumb is not like the normal primate opposing thumb, the inside-most digit on the hand. Instead, it is a wrist bone that grew out at an angle and helps the panda eat bamboo shoots. Pandas still have the standard five digits, but their "thumb" acts as a sixth digit as all the other digits are non-opposing.

121 godfrey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:13:32pm

re: #115 Peacekeeper

Religious faith should never rest on anything false.

122 Glackinspeil  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:13:36pm

re: #104 debutaunt

Malcom was a big old kidder.

How dare you insult Malcolm? He got this information directly from the honorable Elijah Muhammed who in turn got it from the mysterious Master W.D. Fard: "The greatest and mightiest god who ever appeared on earth"! There can be no doubt! Believe or perish

123 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:14:19pm

re: #111 Russkilitlover

LOL! North Carolina: First in Flight, last to catch on to modern vernacular!

I'm fairly sure a couple people noticed and said nothing, wanting to see how long it took people to catch on.

124 Ben Hur  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:14:51pm

re: #117 Occasional Reader

What, like I'm some kind of clown? Like I'm here to entertain you?

It's just, you know. You're just funny, it's... funny, the way you tell the story and everything.

125 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:15:12pm

re: #113 godfrey

In the sequel, Benaeth the Planet of the Apes he uncovers the post apocalypse New York Subway where some dumb ass human mutants are still waiting for their trains...

126 debutaunt  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:15:24pm

re: #122 Glackinspeil

How dare you insult Malcolm? He got this information directly from the honorable Elijah Muhammed who in turn got it from the mysterious Master W.D. Fard: "The greatest and mightiest god who ever appeared on earth"! There can be no doubt! Believe or perish

Nice folks, huh? Malcom had a change of heart and was killed for it.

127 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:15:32pm
128 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:15:43pm

re: #125 Peacekeeper

In the sequel, Benaeth the Planet of the Apes he uncovers the post apocalypse New York Subway where some dumb ass human mutants are still waiting for their trains...

Gotta love that public transportation. ;-)

129 Ben Hur  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:15:48pm

re: #120 Honorary Yooper

OK, pandas have a "thumb". This thumb is not like the normal primate opposing thumb, the inside-most digit on the hand. Instead, it is a wrist bone that grew out at an angle and helps the panda eat bamboo shoots. Pandas still have the standard five digits, but their "thumb" acts as a sixth digit as all the other digits are non-opposing.


And "Creationists" use this to disprove Darwinism?

130 opnion  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:16:04pm

re: #120 Honorary Yooper

OK, pandas have a "thumb". This thumb is not like the normal primate opposing thumb, the inside-most digit on the hand. Instead, it is a wrist bone that grew out at an angle and helps the panda eat bamboo shoots. Pandas still have the standard five digits, but their "thumb" acts as a sixth digit as all the other digits are non-opposing.


If cats had opposable thumbs,they would rule the world.
They are all plotting now to still figure out a way. Shhhh

131 Iron Fist  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:16:06pm

re: #127 NJDhockeyfan

McKinney Joins Forces With Sheehan to Unseat Pelosi

Heh.


Deathmatch!

132 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:16:07pm

re: #127 NJDhockeyfan

McKinney Joins Forces With Sheehan to Unseat Pelosi

Heh.

Now that's just classic comedy.

133 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:16:09pm

re: #125 Peacekeeper

Isn't that one where they worshiped an ICBM?

134 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:16:24pm

re: #124 Ben Hur

It's just, you know. You're just funny, it's... funny, the way you tell the story and everything.

[pulls out now-SCOTUS-approved .45acp] BLAMBLAMBLAMBLAM

(okay, that was a different scene, but still)

135 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:16:35pm

re: #121 godfrey

Religious faith should never rest on anything false.

neither should science. The issue is big egos get involved , egos with agendas. Next thing you know you're living in Spain and voting next to a gorilla.

136 silversmith  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:16:57pm

My problem with the republicans is that they can be religious nut jobs as much as any other godworshipper...that is that they are the party of 2000 year old fairy tales. They will turn the world on it's head to prove their silly god. To some degree they started the wave of religious intolerance that is sweeping the world.

As a boy hunting trilobites and pentramites and blastoids and carting petrified wood on my back like a burro, I had the history of the earth burned into my psyche by countless hours of campfire talk by educated men. To have an unlearned preacher type tell me that God put those fossils in the ground just to fool me and test my faith is just plain offensive to me.

I read on the Internet that since you can burn wood and immerse it it 'water glass' and thus create a form of petrified wood in less than 24 hours, that this proves God created the world in 7 days and that all petrified wood was made by God the same way.

Telling these wack jobs anything is like telling a Muslim that Mohammad was just a crazy man of his time.

Why bother?

Bless you all for bothering.

137 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:16:58pm

re: #133 Bubblehead II

Isn't that one where they worshiped an ICBM?


yeah, but it was mostly a Christmas & Easter kind of thing.

138 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:17:12pm
139 vxbush  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:17:19pm

re: #114 J.S.

The concept of "race" was used throughout the nineteenth century -- long before Darwin came on the scene. There's a interesting article written about Darwin's contributions to modernity...link here. Darwin did more to abolish the underpinnings of typical racist ideology (that's based on "typology" and invariance)...please read the article, I think you'll find it's well worth your while.

Added to my favorites so I can find the link later. Thanks!

140 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:17:20pm

re: #129 Ben Hur

And "Creationists" use this to disprove Darwinism?

Actaully, it's used as an example of evolution using two different means to achieve the same result, a thumb.

/Been a while since I read Gould's book on this.

141 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:17:22pm

re: #133 Bubblehead II

Isn't that one where they worshiped an ICBM?

Yep! And the world blowed up!

142 godfrey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:17:23pm

re: #125 Peacekeeper

lol

You see, if they had only refused to mutate, the trains would've arrived on time!

143 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:17:40pm

re: #128 Honorary Yooper

Gotta love that public transportation. ;-)

That's one unending subsidy...

144 Trelane  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:17:50pm

LGF used to be a more thoughtful, intelligent, sophisticated forum. That was about 3 years ago. Recently, with the attacks by Charles (and his echo chamber chorus) on religious beliefs, this has become, sadly, a secular version of Huffpo. Well, so be it Charles.

To wit: The author of this article wrote:

Darwin's Black Box bypasses scientists to reach a public likely to be impressed by Behe's credentials as a biologist, aided by a publisher who seems to care more for profit than for accuracy (let us remember that the Free Press, a division of Simon & Schuster, also published The Bell Curve).

So now the Bell Curve is suspect? Why? What's this author's agenda? For that matter, what's your agenda Charles? It used to be fighting the Islamofascists. Now its any religious belief? You stay classy LGF.

145 Dianna  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:17:59pm

re: #122 Glackinspeil

What book cover is your avatar from? It's half-familiar, but I can't place it.

146 Ben Hur  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:18:38pm

re: #140 Honorary Yooper


Thanks

Moving on to the next thread

147 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:18:49pm

re: #136 silversmith

What about the summers in Rangoon?

148 DeafDog  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:19:23pm

re: #127 NJDhockeyfan

McKinney Joins Forces With Sheehan to Unseat Pelosi

Heh.

Not since Abbott joined forces with Costello to defeat the mummy has so much firepower been amassed to confront evil.

149 Glackinspeil  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:20:04pm

re: #126 debutaunt

Malcolm was actually on the outs before his so-called "change of heart". He was about to go public with proof of Elijah M's decades of dalliances with church secretaries.

As for the change of heart, all he did was trade one hateful ideology for another. Instead of hating whitey, hating all infidels.

It's all a sham anyway, he changed religions without ever reading the quran. Just wanted to belong somewhere and get attention.

150 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:20:08pm

re: #141 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

New thread!

151 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:20:12pm

re: #144 Trelane

What attacks on religious belief? This is an attack on idiotarianism, no different than exposing the Islamists, the fascists, the liberals, Dan Rather, etc, etc.

Show me where Charles attacks religious belief here.

I'm waiting, and please use examples and citiations.

152 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:20:30pm

Charles can speak for himself. So I won't. Speaking for myself I don't see him as anti-religion.

153 silversmith  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:21:08pm

I have no idea what you are talking about peacekeeper

154 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:21:22pm

re: #147 Peacekeeper

What about the summers in Rangoon?

There is really nothing like a shorn trilobite; it's breathtaking, I highly suggest you try it.

155 Glackinspeil  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:21:22pm

re: #145 Dianna

What book cover is your avatar from? It's half-familiar, but I can't place it.

Not a book. Album Cover (I'm dating myself). "Blues for Allah" by the Grateful Dead

156 DeafDog  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:21:31pm

re: #136 silversmith

WTF? (as they say in North Carolina).

157 Dianna  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:21:57pm

re: #144 Trelane

Two weeks and two comments, and you feel you are qualified to comment on LGF's "old days"?

158 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:21:59pm
By inserting the period (and removing the sentence from its neighbors), Behe has twisted our meaning. Our discussion of one aspect of Darwinism—the relative size of adaptive mutations—has suddenly become a critique of the entire Darwinian enterprise. This is not sloppy scholarship, but deliberate distortion.

Perhaps I unduly belabor this point, but we know what they say about God and the details. Can anyone who alters quotations be trusted to give an unbiased view of the scientific data?

Quote mining: A clear indication of a leftist, progsoc mindset.

No, Behe is not to be trusted to give an unbiased view on anything, especially science.

159 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:22:09pm

re: #132 Honorary Yooper

Now that's just classic comedy.

The picture is priceless.

160 jcm  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:22:26pm

re: #121 godfrey

Religious faith should never rest on anything false.

Exactly. Both are seeking the truth, one physical on metaphysical. The trouble is leaving the path to truth, in preference to opinion, mistaking opinion for truth, becoming dogmatic in defending opinion instead of truth.

161 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:22:30pm

re: #144 Trelane

Moby alert!

Trelane

Registered since: Jun 12, 2008 at 1:16 pm
No. of comments posted: 2
No. of links posted: 0

162 Spenser (with an S)  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:22:34pm

re: #136 silversmith

Are you trying to piss all Christians off and have us say something we'd regret so you can feel oh so superior? If you'd pull your self-satisfied head out of your ass you'd see that most Christians here believe in an old earth. Are we idiots also?

163 Dianna  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:23:25pm

re: #155 Glackinspeil

Thanks. I knew I'd seen it, but I really couldn't remember where.

164 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:23:28pm

re: #136 silversmith

To some degree they started the wave of religious intolerance that is sweeping the world.

rrrrrIIIIGHT, the GOP invented jihadism. Of course they did.

165 nikis-knight  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:23:40pm

re: #129 Ben Hur

The other way around. Some athiest, I don't remember who, wrote a book saying something to the effect of, God had no role in nature, because if he had wanted to give panda's thumbs, he would have giving them a real one.

I don't really by it, but I'm paraphrasing and didn't read it myself.

166 opnion  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:24:38pm

re: #149 Glackinspeil

Malcolm was actually on the outs before his so-called "change of heart". He was about to go public with proof of Elijah M's decades of dalliances with church secretaries.

As for the change of heart, all he did was trade one hateful ideology for another. Instead of hating whitey, hating all infidels.

It's all a sham anyway, he changed religions without ever reading the quran. Just wanted to belong somewhere and get attention.

Surprise, surprise, two bit criminal, Detroit Red had the Jail house conversion to Islam. Sound familiar?
He never stopped being a punk. He just pissed off Elijah Mohammad & broadened his hate horizon

167 silversmith  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:24:50pm

spencer iwth an s

if the shoe fits

168 Dianna  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:25:01pm

re: #161 Bubblehead II

Not enough evidence. Troll or moby is unclear at this point.

169 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:25:39pm

re: #167 silversmith

spencer iwth an s

if the shoe fits

then ewar it.

170 Phileosophos  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:26:02pm

Ah, the usual honesty one finds from the pro-evolution crowd. Any scientist who doesn't toe the line is suddenly persona non grata, an unreliable source, or untrustworthy.

171 silversmith  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:26:11pm

occasional reader,

my words were religious intolerance, not jihadism

172 godfrey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:26:36pm

re: #136 silversmith

To some degree they started the wave of religious intolerance that is sweeping the world.

lol

Yes, if only those French priests during the French Revolution hadn't been so damned thick, the mobs wouldn't have dragged eighty of them out into the street and beaten them to death.

They like totally asked for it.

173 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:27:31pm

re: #169 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

then ewar it.

MLAO!

174 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:27:33pm

re: #171 silversmith

occasional reader,

my words were religious intolerance, not jihadism

I think the latter kind of includes a whole heapin' helpin' of the former, don't you?

But if you can please tell us what other "wave of religious intolerance sweeping the world" has been caused by the Republican Party, we're all ears.

175 jcm  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:27:37pm

re: #144 Trelane

LGF used to be a more thoughtful, intelligent, sophisticated forum. That was about 3 years ago. Recently, with the attacks by Charles (and his echo chamber chorus) on religious beliefs, this has become, sadly, a secular version of Huffpo. Well, so be it Charles.

To wit: The author of this article wrote:

So now the Bell Curve is suspect? Why? What's this author's agenda? For that matter, what's your agenda Charles? It used to be fighting the Islamofascists. Now its any religious belief? You stay classy LGF.

You're welcome to leave.
Now would be good.

You just have been paying attention.

176 jcm  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:27:56pm

re: #175 jcm

You're welcome to leave.
Now would be good.

You just have been paying attention.

PIMF, haven't

177 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:28:12pm

re: #153 silversmith

It's an in joke. Only an inbred like OR would get it. You sounded a tad like the monologue from an Austin Powers movie. Just teasing.

178 silversmith  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:28:15pm

lol
those french will convert you with an axe as Mark Twain said.

179 nikis-knight  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:28:23pm

re: #175 jcm

You just have been paying attention.

eh?

180 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:28:56pm

re: #172 godfrey

lol

Yes, if only those French priests during the French Revolution hadn't been so damned thick, the mobs wouldn't have dragged eighty of them out into the street and beaten them to death.

They like totally asked for it.

Damn those GOP Jacobins!

181 silversmith  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:29:36pm

re: #174 Occasional Reader


political correctness

tee hee

182 Yashmak  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:30:02pm
Recently, with the attacks by Charles (and his echo chamber chorus) on religious beliefs, this has become, sadly, a secular version of Huffpo.

I haven't seen attacks on religious belief, only on the belief that ID is science. Many of those disputing the idea that ID is science are, in fact, religious folks themselves.

Only those who adhere to ID as science feel that their religion is under attack.

183 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:30:05pm

BIG TRILOBITE IS RIPPING US OFF!

184 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:30:16pm

re: #181 silversmith

political correctness

tee hee

Uh, what?

185 nikis-knight  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:30:18pm

re: #176 jcm

Don't ya just hate those typos that completely reverse your meaning? heh...

186 Glackinspeil  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:30:32pm

re: #166 opnion

Surprise, surprise, two bit criminal, Detroit Red had the Jail house conversion to Islam. Sound familiar?
He never stopped being a punk. He just pissed off Elijah Mohammad & broadened his hate horizon

You hit the nail on the head.
I actually did a paper with a thesis that malcolm was not only a fake but quite possibly a clinical psychopath. The professor flipped that I insulted his hero.

187 nikis-knight  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:31:06pm

re: #184 Occasional Reader

Haven't you been paying attention? It's the height of political correctness not to point out republican flaws, real or imagined.

188 silversmith  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:31:21pm

re: #177 Peacekeeper


not an IN kind of guy.

Thanks for the reply

Always wanting to hear a good arguement
]
thanks

189 Spenser (with an S)  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:32:03pm

re: #182 Yashmak

Only those who adhere to ID as science feel that their religion is under attack.

If you mean under attack by Charles, I'd agree, but many here have lumped in any idiot who would believe in God.

190 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:32:53pm

I really doubt that there was a big boat full of animals, for example. Although it is fascinating to read theories about the universal nature of the flood myth and speculate on what event inspired them.
Plus one cannot say that they literally believe the words of the bible unless they read ancient hebrew and sanaskrit.

191 Dianna  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:34:24pm

re: #170 Phileosophos

And the distorted quote means nothing to you?

192 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:35:33pm

Be this thread dead?

193 Dianna  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:35:38pm

re: #171 silversmith

You're clearly not a historian.

If you think the current era is religiously intolerant, you have not been paying attention.

194 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:37:25pm
195 silversmith  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:37:33pm

This week, in our local paper, in the editorial section, a reader wrote that there is no proof for evolution.

For that writer it is a true statement. No person is so blind as one who will not see.

I respect LGF for supporting reality by taking the time to point out subtle truths created by paleontology.

I will believe in a God when I meet her.

peace and smileys to the rest

196 Dianna  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:37:41pm

re: #183 Peacekeeper

I still want the granite slab with the trilobites in it.

197 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:37:45pm

re: #189 Spenser (with an S)

If you mean under attack by Charles, I'd agree, but many here have lumped in any idiot who would believe in God.

There's a few who will use a thread as an excuse to attack. I could name a few who found their excuse in threads about the Pope to spew their anti-Catholic bile as an example. But, those are commentors, and not the owner of the site.

Most lizards don't use these as an excuse to attack anyone but the idiotarians themselves.

198 nikis-knight  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:38:00pm

re: #190 Peacekeeper

I really doubt that there was a big boat full of animals, for example. Although it is fascinating to read theories about the universal nature of the flood myth and speculate on what event inspired them.
Plus one cannot say that they literally believe the words of the bible unless they read ancient hebrew and sanaskrit.

Someone, I'm pretty sure Hugh Ross, pointed out the sctrict [100%] literalists who advance a global flood wiping out all animal life believe in more powerful, i.e., faster rates of, evolution than any Darwinist, since every isolated species that wasn't in the Ark would have had to evolve from those that were in just 5-6 or 7 thousand years, as opposed to the some millions of years since the last common ancestor of Darwinism.

That said, I do believe in a flood that killed many people, perhaps all, perhaps in one area, save those forwarned by God who brought their livestock and such.

199 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:38:18pm

No one can prove Charlse's existence. Could be made up like Uncle Ben or Mrs Paul....

200 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:38:32pm

re: #168 Dianna

Point taken, but that post was over the top IMO.

201 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:38:39pm

re: #190 Peacekeeper

Although it is fascinating to read theories about the universal nature of the flood myth and speculate on what event inspired them.

I'm guessing floods. Just spitballin' here.

202 Dianna  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:38:42pm

re: #189 Spenser (with an S)

That's a minority position, and annoying.

203 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:39:28pm

re: #196 Dianna

I still want the granite slab with the trilobites in it.

Will you settle for travertine instead?

/It's sedimentary my dear Watson.

204 Spenser (with an S)  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:39:31pm

re: #194 buzzsawmonkey

many here have lumped in any idiot who would believe in God.

You are right. Many is too strong a word. A vocal few? I love 98% of lizards.

205 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:40:12pm

re: #195 silversmith
Fair enough.

206 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:40:35pm

re: #201 Occasional Reader

I'm guessing floods. Just spitballin' here.

[shakes fist]

207 silversmith  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:40:57pm

re: #196 Dianna


All my trilobites are from Grafton Illinois and are in limestone

sorry no granite

208 Dianna  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:41:12pm

re: #200 Bubblehead II

Oh, agreed. Both that one and silversmith struck me as being out of line.

209 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:41:47pm

re: #170 Phileosophos

Ah, the usual honesty one finds from the pro-evolution crowd. Any scientist who doesn't toe the line is suddenly persona non grata, an unreliable source, or untrustworthy.

Has nothing to do with that. It has to do with Behe's quote mining and intellectual dishonesty in doing so.

Getting scientists to toe a line is like herding cats.

210 Dianna  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:42:07pm

re: #207 silversmith

It's a really gorgeous stone - I think it was composite, but I saw it for about 5 minutes a couple years ago.

211 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:42:29pm
212 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:43:02pm

re: #207 silversmith

All my trilobites are from Grafton Illinois and are in limestone

sorry no granite

You'd never find any triobites in granite anyway.

213 madisonsfriend  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:43:12pm

re: #199 Peacekeeper

No one can prove Charlse's existence. Could be made up like Uncle Ben or Mrs Paul....

Mrs. Paul is made up? Does Ron know that?

214 palarson  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:43:36pm

Well, its been ten years. Where's the rebuttal?

Phil

215 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:43:50pm

There's a theory that the Mediteranean flooded the Black Sea in ancient times, destroying what would have been populated cropland. I've seen another that theorized that during the last Ice age many inhabited coastal area were flooded by (wait for it) Global Warming. The poor stone age SOB's had no Al Gore back then.

216 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:44:30pm

re: #199 Peacekeeper

No one can prove Charlse's existence. Could be made up like Uncle Ben or Mrs Paul....

He's a name Stinky Beaumont uses in order to appear human while he controls all in his nitrogen filled lair under DIA.

217 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:45:43pm

re: #210 Dianna

The first curbstones used up in Vermont were cut from a slte deposit formed from a 500 million year old reef. I've never had luck but lots of folks have found fossils in their sidewalk. Most of the stuff is gone now.

218 nikis-knight  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:46:09pm

re: #211 buzzsawmonkey

he was saved because he was the one with the smallest carbon footprint. Of course, in those days that just meant he gave his mule the a day off.

wait a minute... That's in the torah... is the sabbath law just to reduce greenhouse gasses from asses?

219 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:47:12pm

re: #212 Honorary Yooper

You'd never find any triobites in granite anyway.

because it's an ignorant rock?

220 nikis-knight  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:47:15pm

re: #215 Peacekeeper

Pastwatch by Orson Scott card has some interesting, fictional, musings on this.

221 Dianna  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:47:18pm

re: #217 Peacekeeper

That's really neat!

222 silversmith  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:47:21pm

re: #212 Honorary Yooper

I was gonna say that granite was an unlikely place to find a trilobite, but then they might have had one mounted on it. I chose to ignore the comment along with the troll comments

223 jcm  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:47:51pm

re: #185 nikis-knight

Don't ya just hate those typos that completely reverse your meaning? heh...

My brain, fingers and eyes all operate at different speeds it seems.
Feh! Do I complain to the chief design or blame my ancestors?

224 WriterMom  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:48:31pm

This thread is getting teh craaaaazy.

225 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:48:54pm
226 WriterMom  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:49:17pm

re: #223 jcm

Just grab a hammer.

227 WriterMom  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:50:06pm

re: #215 Peacekeeper

Poopulated crapland?

That's Gaza, darling.

228 Dianna  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:50:27pm

re: #223 jcm

Take up juggling - you'd be surprised how much it helps.

229 WriterMom  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:51:12pm

re: #135 Peacekeeper

LOL.

230 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:51:50pm

re: #222 silversmith

I was gonna say that granite was an unlikely place to find a trilobite, but then they might have had one mounted on it. I chose to ignore the comment along with the troll comments

I was just being silly with it by suggesting travertine instead.

Like I said [about finding triobites], it's sedimentary, my dear Watson.

231 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:52:03pm

re: #221 Dianna

That's really neat!

Yeah but I've never found any. rats.
I know a woman who has a nice piece she uses in her garden it is covered in little nautilus like shells.

232 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:52:15pm

re: #230 Honorary Yooper

OK, so it's a bad geologist joke.

233 Babydoc97  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:53:14pm

More strawman arguments?

Are there ID folks who deliberately distort quotes and have a poor understanding of the complexities of microbiologic science? Undoubtedly. I'm certainly not arguing with you on people misquoting darwinist scientists to try to make ID look better. Those folks irritate the snot out of me, because it makes it so much harder to have an honest debate on the subject.

That being said, Oh grand Lizard Master, there is still no answer from the evolutionary biology side to prove MACROevolution. Plasmid exchange at the bacterial level is the only thing that even comes close, but is still a MICROevolutionary event. The species of the bacterium does not change with the addition of the plasmid.

Feel free to lambast me as a barefoot, buck-toothed, Bible-thumpin', outhouse-cleaning moron...I've got to get back to work on all these premature infants in my NICU and won't be around to defend myself. Lunchbreak is over....

234 WriterMom  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:53:32pm

re: #70 Occasional Reader

Hahhaa. Where is Dirk...if he comes I'm making popcorn.

235 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:53:39pm

1,000 trilobites equals a Megabite

236 WriterMom  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:53:52pm

I mean, if Dirk presents himself on the thread.

LOL.

237 Dianna  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:54:46pm

re: #236 WriterMom

Too late!

238 WriterMom  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:55:21pm

re: #18 godfrey

You cannot possibly be interested in her...PLEASE STOP IT PLEASE GAAAAAAA.

239 Dianna  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:55:33pm

re: #231 Peacekeeper

How did the local authorities feel about her taking the curbstone, though?

240 WriterMom  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:55:43pm

re: #237 Dianna

Hahahaha. I think it's just you and me who noticed.

241 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:55:47pm

re: #233 Babydoc97

YOU barefoot, buck-toothed, Bible-thumpin', outhouse-cleaning moron.

242 Dianna  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:56:28pm

re: #240 WriterMom

If we're lucky.

243 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:56:46pm

re: #233 Babydoc97

The terms micro- and macro- evolution are YEC constructs to explain away genetics while attempting to stick to the 6 day, 6,000 year timeline. So, Babydoc, what heppens when you finnly have enough "micro-evolution" that the two populations can no longer mate with each other? I'll give you a hint, it's called just plain evolution.

244 jcm  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:57:22pm

re: #228 Dianna

Take up juggling - you'd be surprised how much it helps.


That's the problem, juggling. Work, family etc.....
;-)

245 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:57:40pm

re: #212 Honorary Yooper

You'd never find any triobites in granite anyway.


I took that for granite.
/sorry

246 silversmith  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:58:23pm

re: #235 Peacekeeper
One blastoid equals one...............

247 SayeretMatkal  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:58:47pm

Jesus Christ...

So should we talk about all those hoax "missing link men"?

You know, the one that was assumed from a mere pig tooth?

Maybe somebody should, I don't know, make a whole blog about the dishonesty that evolutionists have spewed?

It's funny how you CONTINUALLY slam and slam and slam ID and people who believe, every way you can Charles. It's subtle, I'll admit, you never blatantly attack, but you nitpick, you find what faults you can and hide it under the blanket of "I'm defending science from religious loonies".

I'm sorry Charles, I don't mind a little debate or controversy, and I've endured years of being ridiculed for my beliefs in literal Creation (I'm quite used to it), but this is just obnoxious.

You claim to be an advocate of science, but you do your best to smother every ID intellectual out there, completely ignoring the bullsh*t that evolutionists have propagated.

To you Charles, it seems a one way argument. You'll smear every single last ID thing you can (And have, so far), but God forbid ANYBODY respond with something that shows the faults of evolution!

In summary- my last remaining ounce of respect for you is gone, sir. In your own little way, you're as bad as any liberal nutcase who wants to repress the opposing views. You're actually DESTROYING scientific thought.

Whatever. I'm sure 99% of the lizards here will give me uber negative ratings, but I don't care, it had to be said, I'm tired of sitting on the sidelines.

248 WriterMom  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:58:52pm

re: #242 Dianna

Or shall we continue?

249 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:59:03pm

re: #233 Babydoc97

More strawman arguments?

Feel free to lambast me as a barefoot, buck-toothed, Bible-thumpin',
outhouse-cleaning moron...I've got to get back to work on all these
premature infants in my NICU and won't be around to defend myself.
Lunchbreak is over....

Wouldn't dream of it - I don't think you clean your outhouse at all.
/I kid

250 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:59:19pm

Dianna Bananna
Actually she lives in Isle la Motte on the ancient reef site, its now a ridge on her farm. See if I got any links

In the northwestern corner of Vermont on Isle La Motte, the northernmost island of Lake Champlain, is a remarkable natural phenomenon: the Chazy Reef formation.

This formation, known worldwide among paleontologists, has been called the world’s oldest reef in which corals first appear. It was formed almost half a billion years ago in the ancient Iapetus Ocean, a shallow tropical sea covering most of what became the eastern North American continent, straddling the equator where Zimbabwe is today.

251 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 1:59:46pm

re: #242 Dianna

Nope, your not. But I am too much of a gentleman to point out such Freudian slips to a lady.

252 Dianna  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:00:00pm

re: #245 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

My fault - I actually know that granite's gneiss. The stone was in a stone gallery I'd gone to to inspect some granite.

It was still a fascinating piece of stone. I wish I remembered the name of the place.

253 silversmith  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:00:25pm

A blastoid was a sea creature that looks like a 'flying wing' and lived approximately 200 million years ago. Mine come from Millstadt Illinois.

254 WriterMom  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:01:03pm

Chazzy Reefer...can you put that in a bong?

255 rgranger  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:01:13pm

Charles, WTF? 235 posts and where the heck is that Linux hack?
You can't just lure a nerd in and then just expose him to God and Apes!

256 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:01:23pm

re: #252 Dianna

My fault - I actually know that granite's gneiss. The stone was in a stone gallery I'd gone to to inspect some granite.

It was still a fascinating piece of stone. I wish I remembered the name of the place.

Granite's gneiss, but I prefer sandstone - it's gneisser.
/Have a great evening - try the veal!

257 Dianna  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:01:23pm

re: #248 WriterMom

I'm not feeling particularly double entendre enabled today.

258 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:02:33pm

Quarry workers on Isle La Motte may have wondered at the strange forms that often appeared in the rock which they were drilling and loading into shipping boats on Lake Champlain. These forms were later identified by paleontologists as marine fossils of astounding antiquity.

259 WriterMom  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:03:19pm

re: #257 Dianna

I hear ya. Well I'm off to the night shift.

But I feel like the Sixth Sense kid...I seeeeee bannnningsssssss I seee dingingssssssss

[whispering]

260 unixrab  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:03:47pm

silence any debate! there can be only one view of the universe, allow no other theories, thought-police attack! :(

261 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:06:10pm

re: #253 silversmith
Stealth technology?

262 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:08:12pm

re: #247 SayeretMatkal

First, you shouldn't blaspheme. Second would you agree or disagree with the fact that the Bible as it exists today is a translation-many times removed from the source documents?

263 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:09:27pm

re: #247 SayeretMatkal

Whatever. I'm sure 99% of the lizards here will give me uber negative ratings, but I don't care, it had to be said, I'm tired of sitting on the sidelines.

You don't seem to be getting the martyrdom you so desperately desire.

264 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:11:01pm

re: #261 Peacekeeper

Stealth technology?

CHARIOTS OF THE GODS?

265 jcm  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:11:19pm

re: #247 SayeretMatkal

You're missing the point. I am outspoken here about my faith, I haven't been attack by anyone, arguments yes, attacks no.

The ID Charles objects to, is bad science being used as a ruse to get a particular view point pushed it schools. That agenda has ramifications if successful that are far from the proponents of ID wish for. That being all religions and pseudo religions having a justifiable claim for equal access.

I object to the ID scheme because it's not faith base, not scriptural. It is attempting to push what is intended as free gift down peoples throats. It is attempting to fight the powers and principalities of spiritual warfare with flesh and blood tools.

They are wrong on both counts. Charles is objecting on the science side. That's not an attack.

I object for their spiritual misaiming.
That is also not an attack.

It's called public debate.

266 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:13:06pm

re: #247 SayeretMatkal

Obviously you've never read the Wedge Document. I suggest you do so, and find out how insidious the Discovery Institute is.

It's idiotarianism, pure and simple, no different than the fascists adn their supporters we dealt with last year, the liberals, Dan Rather, the Islamists, etc, etc.

Why do some people act like there are sacred cows? Here at LGF, we're supposed to slaughter the sacred cows and bbq them.
/Filet or prime rib?

267 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:13:08pm

re: #258 Peacekeeper

Quarry workers on Isle La Motte may have wondered at the strange forms that often appeared in the rock which they were drilling and loading into shipping boats on Lake Champlain. These forms were later identified by paleontologists as marine fossils of astounding antiquity.

I found fossilized seashells in western NY state back when I was a young'un (they were digging up the street for water line repairs or something).

268 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:13:33pm

re: #264 Occasional Reader

CHARIOTS OF THE GODS?

How could a bunch of ignorant cells design and build that thing? It defies explanation. Musta had alien help.

269 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:13:47pm

re: #266 Honorary Yooper

/Filet or prime rib?

Filet, please. (Tastier, lower cholesterol)

270 Dianna  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:14:00pm

re: #264 Occasional Reader

Ahgh!

271 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:15:39pm

re: #267 Occasional Reader

Next I suppose you'll tell us you invented buffalo wings.

272 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:15:41pm

re: #268 Peacekeeper

How could a bunch of ignorant cells design and build that thing? It defies explanation. Musta had alien help.

I read ALL the Erik Von Daniken books at around age 10 - 11. Thought it was incredibly cool stuff. Eventually, Dad sat me down and explained why the guy was a crank.

273 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:16:37pm

re: #272 Occasional Reader

I read ALL the Erik Von Daniken books at around age 10 - 11. Thought it was incredibly cool stuff. Eventually, Dad sat me down and explained why the guy was a crank.

However, it can make a great plot line for a movie.

274 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:16:58pm

re: #260 unixrab

silence any debate! there can be only one view of the universe, allow no other theories, thought-police attack! :(

Yes, because having one's opinions or views challenged or disagreed with is EXACTLY like being silenced by the Thought-PoliceTM.

275 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:17:55pm

re: #272 Occasional Reader

I was big on the Bermuda triangle. NOVA sorted me out on that and Daniken. Hail PBS.

276 Charles  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:18:54pm

I'm destroying scientific thought, all by myself?

Wow. Not bad.

277 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:19:10pm

I remember they went to a village where the locals showed how they carved space things in rocks and then burned them in manure to make them look old and then sold them to Daniken.

278 hillbilly geek  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:19:14pm

re: #245 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

I took that for granite.
/sorry

Gee, that's gneiss!

279 unixrab  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:19:38pm

re: #274 Slumbering Behemoth

debate is fine, disagreement, fine.... what Charles does with ID is borderline vitriol... and I'm pretty fond of this site, with that exception. oh well.

280 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:20:05pm

and religious thought too!


BIG JOHNSON IS RIPPING US OFF!

281 Dianna  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:20:09pm

re: #276 Charles

You are so powerful!

282 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:20:10pm
283 A. van Hilten  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:20:27pm

Hmmm, when I entered the main page the current rotating title was: "7 out of 10 laboratory mice prefer it."

It gives a whole new meaning to "Luring Disco dollies into a life of vice."

Welcome to the Vast Darwiniac Conspiracy™!

284 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:20:41pm
285 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:20:49pm

re: #275 Peacekeeper

I was big on the Bermuda triangle.

[sigh] me too.

I still keep expecting those torpedo-bomber pilots to show up.

286 Charles  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:20:58pm

re: #255 rgranger

Charles, WTF? 235 posts and where the heck is that Linux hack?
You can't just lure a nerd in and then just expose him to God and Apes!

Oh, the hack? It ended up being this:

find /tmp -maxdepth 1 -cmin +60 -name '*.wrk' | xargs rm -f

I'm not even sure how I got from that to the Michael Behe article, except that I was probably on my usual mission to destroy scientific thought.

287 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:20:58pm

re: #279 unixrab

what Charles does with ID is borderline vitriol

Give examples, cite sources, provide proof.

288 Dianna  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:21:33pm

re: #275 Peacekeeper

It's like magic. Fun for novels, not terribly credible, otherwise.

289 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:21:59pm

re: #277 Peacekeeper

I remember they went to a village where the locals showed how they carved space things in rocks and then burned them in manure to make them look old and then sold them to Daniken.

Was Lucy Ramirez involved in this?

290 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:22:08pm

re: #279 unixrab

debate is fine, disagreement, fine.... what Charles does with ID is borderline vitriol... and I'm pretty fond of this site, with that exception. oh well.

How is it vitriol? I've never seen Charles any different over the ID issue than he was over the issue of supporting the fascists or any other issue for that matter.

Slaughter the sacred cows and bar-be-que them!

291 A. van Hilten  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:22:09pm

re: #280 Peacekeeper

and religious thought too!


BIG JOHNSON IS RIPPING US OFF!

Hey, who said size didn't matter?

292 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:22:26pm

re: #285 Occasional Reader

I still hold out a thread of hope for Bigfoot...

293 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:23:11pm

re: #292 Peacekeeper

I still hold out a thread of hope for Bigfoot...

What about Nessie?

294 Dianna  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:23:56pm

re: #292 Peacekeeper

One night, I saw some piece on the Discovery channel that tried to tell me that Bigfoot's real.

295 Dianna  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:24:21pm

re: #293 Honorary Yooper

I'd like Nessie to be real, but I'm pretty sure she's not.

296 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:24:46pm

Course now TV is FULL of shows allegedly scientific, pushing crap.

How SciFi made a series about some dufusses (dufii?) running around in the dark with nightvision gear into a hit, I'll never know.

297 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:24:46pm
298 godfrey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:25:11pm

Who doesn't like ID posters, grilled? Trilobite. You might like it.

299 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:25:12pm

re: #293 Honorary Yooper

What about Nessie?

Champ, the Lake Champlain Monster.

300 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:25:40pm

re: #295 Dianna

I'd like Nessie to be real,

We aim to plesiosaur.

301 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:26:07pm
302 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:26:08pm

re: #299 Peacekeeper

Champ, the Lake Champlain Monster.

IF IT ISN'T SCOTTISH, IT'S SHITE

303 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:26:26pm

re: #297 buzzsawmonkey

Of course he's real. Somebody buys those size 15 shoes.

And how else do they make those Jack Links commercials? Next thing you'll tell me, it's an actor in a suit.

/

304 kalvinb  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:27:35pm

"since every isolated species that wasn't in the Ark would have had to evolve from those that were in just 5-6 or 7 thousand years, as opposed to the some millions of years since the last common ancestor of Darwinism."

The issue is not things changing. The issue is how long it takes. Dating methods are full of assumptions. The most common assumption is the starting ratio of two elements. We assume it was x:y and now it's a:b and the half life of the elements is used to calculate how long it takes to get from x:y to a:b

x:y is not actually known. Nor is there a way to know what it was.

It wasn't too long ago that we were shocked, shocked I say, to find that a lizard had changed dramatically in all of 20 years.

Isn't it fun that oil is such war causing substance simply because it's believed that it takes millions of years to form. Same with diamonds. And yet both can be made in a lab simulating the actual environment within a short amount of time.

305 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:27:41pm
306 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:28:08pm

Back when I was a cop, I got one report of a champ sighting. I told the old girl that Iwe don't take sighting reports but if A dinosaur sticks his head out of the lake while I'm around he's gonna regret it (13 rounds of .45 ACP)

307 unixrab  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:28:34pm

re: #287 Slumbering Behemoth

it's just my opinion, based on my perceptions reading the anti-ID articles over the past few weeks... besides, Proof is for evolutionists. ;-)

308 Alexander  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:28:48pm

Behe is neither a quack, nor a wannabe scientist. As a professional Biochemist, he should know better, so I cannot comment on this one-sided portrayal of what otherwise appears to be a very serious mistake, or a lapse in academic integrity.

In any event, I've produced instances of despicable conduct by self-appointed "defenders of science" on LGF before, if only to demonstrate that on this topic, discussion has seen degradation on both sides. To pretend the Establishment Orthodoxy is somehow pristine in its own distortions would be laughable if it weren't so pernicious.

309 godfrey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:29:16pm

"Nessie." It's supposed to be a frickin dinosaur. Couldn't they have come up with a better name, like, I don't know, Nessosaurus? Give us a little fear factor, people. I'm not schlepping across the Atlantic for "Nessie."

310 Dianna  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:29:34pm

re: #296 Peacekeeper

Oh, that show!

Those guys run if there's a cold draft.

311 Charles  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:29:37pm

re: #308 Alexander

To pretend the Establishment Orthodoxy is somehow pristine in its own distortions would be laughable if it weren't so pernicious.

That would be laughable, if anyone were actually doing it.

312 Dianna  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:29:59pm

re: #297 buzzsawmonkey

My brother, for one.

313 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:30:16pm

re: #303 Honorary Yooper

And how else do they make those Jack Links commercials? Next thing you'll tell me, it's an actor in a suit.

/

Actually if bigfoot is real he could file suit in Spain for a share of the profits from all the movies about him.

314 Yashmak  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:30:30pm
If you mean under attack by Charles, I'd agree, but many here have lumped in any idiot who would believe in God.

-Spencer

I guess I can see that. In fact, no that I think about it, I can recall (with regret) that on one occasion on one of these topics, I made a disparaging remark about the Bible. It wasn't because I don't respect the belief of Christians, or those of other religions that have a creation belief. . . .it's just that I was frustrated at the time with a person I was arguing who was having difficulty understanding the difference between religion and science.

For that comment, I do apologize.

315 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:30:35pm

re: #306 Peacekeeper

A dinosaur sticks his head out of the lake while I'm around he's gonna regret it (13 rounds of .45 ACP)

You would SHOOT Champy?!

And what the hell were you carrying, "back in the day", that had a 13-round .45ACP capacity? Glock 21?

316 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:30:44pm
317 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:31:05pm

re: #313 Peacekeeper

Actually if bigfoot is real he could file suit in Spain for a share of the profits from all the movies about him.

Starting with Harry and the Hendersons, eh?

318 godfrey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:31:21pm

re: #313 Peacekeeper

Can we sue? Orang-we-tan!

319 Alexander  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:31:36pm

re: #311 Charles

Shall I produce references again?

....give me 24 hours. I'm going to miss my flight again.

320 Dianna  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:33:08pm

re: #313 Peacekeeper

That explains some of the guys I used to drive past standing at the edges of the woods in Washington and Oregon! They're lawyers who got lost while looking for Bigfoot to sign papers!

321 scottishbuzzsaw  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:33:16pm

I lurk much, comment little, but I've got to say that I greatly appreciate LGF. The breadth of topics covered, the intelligence and quality of the comments (for the most part), and the wonderful, quirky sense of humor that prevails here makes this place a gem in the world of blogs. And Charles, thank you for all the recent science posts. Very interesting and informative.

322 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:33:21pm

re: #315 Occasional Reader

You would SHOOT Champy?!

And what the hell were you carrying, "back in the day", that had a 13-round .45ACP capacity? Glock 21?

Yes. She said it was a dinosaur head on a loong neck. This was about the time the first Jurassic Park came out.

What do we know about Charles' position on Bigfoot, Loch Ness and Flight 19? What's he hiding?

323 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:33:55pm

re: #295 Dianna

I'd like Nessie to be real, but I'm pretty sure she's not.

Ever read a Ray Bradbury short story titled "The Foghorn"?

Moral of the story: Don't f**k with plesiosaurs.

324 Dianna  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:34:26pm

re: #316 buzzsawmonkey

Was there a pun embedded in that? If so, I missed it.

325 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:35:11pm

re: #320 Dianna

My toddler was saying he saw a "green man" in the woods for a while back in the spring. Pretty sure it was a hunter but creepy in a Stephen King sort of way.

326 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:35:41pm
327 godfrey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:36:19pm

re: #324 Dianna

One, sole pun.

328 Dianna  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:36:20pm

re: #325 Peacekeeper

It does sound like a short-story beginning.

329 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:36:22pm

mean feat when you meant feet?

330 godfrey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:36:49pm

*bonk*

331 Dianna  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:37:05pm

re: #326 buzzsawmonkey

I thought that was it, but usually, you'd spell it "feet".

332 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:37:16pm

The end of my day is here and no word on the Johnson-Sasquatch connection. Hmm.

333 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:37:18pm

re: #322 Peacekeeper

This was about the time the first Jurassic Park came out.

You must've been the first kid on your block to get a Glock 21. I think they had barely hit the US market in 1993 (when JP came out).

334 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:38:05pm

re: #307 unixrab

You have nothing to back up your accusation that "what Charles does with ID is borderline vitriol". In other words, you're just blowing smoke.

335 unixrab  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:39:03pm

re: #334 Slumbering Behemoth

pretty much. jmho :-|

336 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:39:20pm

I was an early adopter. The .45 works much better on rabid raccoons than the .357 or 9mm, I can tell you.

337 godfrey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:39:24pm

re: #332 Peacekeeper

If Sasquatch had a Johnson connection, we'd probably have seen more little sasquatches by now. Maybe he's a secular, liberal sasquatch who's watched too many Al Gore movies.

338 Peacekeeper  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:40:24pm

re: #337 godfrey

If Sasquatch had a Johnson connection, we'd probably have seen more little sasquatches by now. Maybe he's a secular, liberal sasquatch who's watched too many Al Gore movies.

Yeti never seems to discuss it.

339 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:40:34pm
340 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:40:58pm

re: #325 Peacekeeper

My toddler was saying he saw a "green man" in the woods

The Green Man

So how many rounds did you unload at the woods after your boy said that?

341 godfrey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:47:43pm

What I like about the bigfoot costume is its attention to detail: image. The thin costume material adheres to the musculature pretty convincingly. I'm less impressed by the mask's exposure of the eye area and the ungainly shoulders. Definitely a sign of inferior tailoring. All it needs is a good once-over by someone at Anderson & Sheppard.

342 nikis-knight  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:50:11pm

re: #297 buzzsawmonkey

Of course he's real. Somebody buys those size 15 shoes.

Hey, I resemble that remark!

343 Da Coyote  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:52:28pm

I'm afraid the emphasis on the bible beaters escapes me. No one learning their poor counterarguments to evolution will ever do any work in biology or related fields. Therefore, their opinions mean nothing. I happen to be a churchgoing type, but I regard the bible as a guide in issues of morality and faith...not in issues of science. Let's forget about these clowns and concentrate our efforts on the Pelosiclown, the Obamaclown, etc.

344 nikis-knight  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 2:53:40pm

re: #326 buzzsawmonkey

No mean feat (difficult task)/no mean feet (large pedal extremities).

Actually, that would be ...(average pedal extremities), which is true, finding big shoes is not done for mean feet (nor mode nor median, for that matter!)

345 psaturn  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 3:01:16pm

re: #243 Honorary Yooper

The terms micro- and macro- evolution are YEC constructs to explain away genetics while attempting to stick to the 6 day, 6,000 year timeline. So, Babydoc, what heppens when you finnly have enough "micro-evolution" that the two populations can no longer mate with each other? I'll give you a hint, it's called just plain evolution.


Hon Yooper, read this in [Link: www.talkorigins.org...]

In evolutionary biology today, macroevolution is used to refer to any evolutionary change at or above the level of species. It means at least the splitting of a species into two (speciation, or cladogenesis, from the Greek meaning "the origin of a branch", see Fig. 1) or the change of a species over time into another (anagenetic speciation, not nowadays generally accepted [note 1]). Any changes that occur at higher levels, such as the evolution of new families, phyla or genera, are also therefore macroevolution, but the term is not restricted to those higher levels. It often also means long-term trends or biases in evolution of higher taxonomic levels.

And the origin of the word is found here

The terms macroevolution and microevolution were first coined in 1927 by the Russian entomologist Iuri'i Filipchenko (or Philipchenko, depending on the transliteration), in his German-language work Variabilität und Variation, which was an early attempt to reconcile Mendelian genetics and evolution. Filipchenko was an evolutionist, but as he wrote during the period when Mendelism seemed to have made Darwinism redundant, the so-called "eclipse of Darwinism" (Bowler 1983), he was not a Darwinian, but an orthogeneticist (he believed evolution had a direction). Moreover, Russian biologists of the period had a history of rejecting Darwin's Malthusian mechanism of evolution by competition (Todes 1989).

and further discusses that

The term was revived by a number of mainly paleontological authors such as Steven Stanley (1979), Stephen Jay Gould and Niles Eldredge, the authors of punctuated equilibrium theory (see Eldredge 1995), who argued that something other than within-species processes are causing macroevolution, although they disavow the view that evolution is progressive. Many paleontologists have held that what happens in evolution beyond the species level is due to processes that operate beyond the level of populations – for example, the notion of species selection (the idea that species themselves get selected similarly to the way alleles get selected within populations, see Grantham 1995, Rice 1995, and Stidd and Wade 1995 for reviews and discussions).

But this author does add this (so I cannot be blamed for ignoring the context)

The idea that the origin of higher taxa such as genera requires something special is often based on the misunderstanding of the way in which new lineages arise. The two species that are the origin of canine and feline lineages probably differed very little from their common ancestral species and each other. But once they were taxonomically isolated from each other, they evolved more and more differences that they shared internally but that other lineages didn't. This is true of all lineages back to the first eukaryotic (nuclear) cell. Even the changes in the Cambrian explosion are of this kind, although some (e.g., Gould 1989) think that the genomes (gene structures) of these early animals were not as tightly regulated as modern animals, and therefore had more freedom to change.

346 debutaunt  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 3:04:53pm

re: #157 Dianna

Two weeks and two comments, and you feel you are qualified to comment on LGF's "old days"?

Way back in the early part of June - the golden weeks of our youth.

347 psaturn  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 3:07:29pm

re: #345 psaturn

again from [Link: www.talkorigins.org...]

Science is not always consistent in its use of terms; this is the source of much confusion. Sometimes this is carelessness, and sometimes this is because of the way in which terms are developed over time. When biologists and paleontologists talk about macroevolution in the sense of "large-scale" evolution, they are strictly speaking meaning only a part of the phenomena the term covers, but it is the most interesting part for those specialists. That is, they are talking about the patterns of well-above-species-level evolution (Smith 1994).

348 godfrey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 3:09:41pm

re: #343 Da Coyote

No one learning their poor counterarguments to evolution will ever do any work in biology or related fields. Therefore, their opinions mean nothing.

Wow, I disagree. Just because their opinions aren't valued in the scientific arena doesn't mean they "mean nothing." They influence how people vote, and that influences legislation, and the legislation affects schooling, which affects the future.

Let me chafe a little here. One of the things that I find really grating about scientific culture is its tendency to attract people who find it pleasurable to act smug when confronted with "irrational" culture. And yet non-scientific culture is very, very strongly determinative of a lot of things. And that obviously affects the environment in which scientists work.

It matters very much, in my view, that poor counterarguments to evolution may gain greater and greater currency. I want strong, rigorous commitment to scientific method in schools. I want strong scientific culture. I do not want a smug scientific culture. Smugness is a political blindness. Too introverted. Not healthy.

349 kalvinb  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 3:11:53pm

"Even the changes in the Cambrian explosion are of this kind, although some (e.g., Gould 1989) think that the genomes (gene structures) of these early animals were not as tightly regulated as modern animals, and therefore had more freedom to change."

Cambrian "explosion"
loosely regulated genomes

Nothing in that quote is anything more than mythology. And yet both are required for evolution. It's speculation used to explain the observations so they fit evolution.

Things have changed way too much for even millions of years to explain naturally without fudging.

350 Kulhwch  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 3:13:04pm

re: #65 Bubblehead II

Is this what you are thinking of?

Socialist Gov’t in Spain to Grant Great Apes “Human Rights”

Amnesty International is shocked that the governing socialists in Spain have put forward legislation to grant great apes ‘human rights’. The same government which stripped from unborn human children the right to life and permits destructive research on human embryos, has put forward legislation to grant great apes the rights the rights to life, freedom and to not being tortured, according to a report by Deutsche Presse-Agentur

So it IS a continuation of the Guantanamo Bay decision, then?

}:)     [Lucky Islamofascists ... ]

351 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 3:13:46pm
352 psaturn  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 3:13:54pm

talkorigins.org has a discussion on macroevolution could be reducible to microevolution

Is macroevolution reducible to microevolution?
Hot news: philosophers of science like to argue about the reduction of one kind of science to another. Many have asked whether macroevolution reduces to microevolution. That is, whether or not larger changes in evolution are "just the sum of" small changes. We need to understand what "reduction" means in the philosophy of science before we can start accusing people of being "reductionists" or "holists".

From a philosophical perspective, one might say macroevolution is just a bunch of microevolution. It's also just a bunch of chemistry. And physics. These are unhelpful answers, so we might find it worthwhile to ask how scientific domains relate to each other. Whenever a scientist or philosopher asks if two theories are reducible one to the other, there are several answers that can be given. One is if the first theory being reduced A is adequately captured by the reducing theory B. Another is that A is not entirely captured by B. A third is that A and B each have overlapping areas, and areas only they capture. This is called the problem of theory reduction.

Reduction has been a philosophical problem with respect to science for about 60 years. It comes in three main varieties: methodological reduction, which is the notion that one ought to try to explain wholes in terms of the parts and their interactions; ontological reduction, which is the notion that all the units or entities of one theory are composed of units or entities of another; and metaphysical reduction, which is the claim that only one kind of thing exists (also called "monism"). Ontological reduction includes reducing all the laws and dynamic generalisations of the A theory to laws and dynamic generalisations of the B theory. In philosophy of science, the case is often put in just these terms, but increasingly philosophers are attending to the objects of scientific theories as well as the models.

353 debutaunt  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 3:14:56pm

re: #252 Dianna

My fault - I actually know that granite's gneiss. The stone was in a stone gallery I'd gone to to inspect some granite.

It was still a fascinating piece of stone. I wish I remembered the name of the place.

The whatchacallit place where they carved all the presidents?

354 psaturn  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 3:15:00pm

re: #348 godfrey

I agree with you there godfrey..

355 debutaunt  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 3:19:47pm

re: #286 Charles

HAHAHAHAHAH

356 franktalk  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 3:22:19pm

I have studied both sides of this debate. One side sees an evolutionary engine and I see a mechanism to fix defects. Just do a study of the defects in the human genome verses beneficial mutations and you will see what I see. I do agree that both sides stretch the truth to the breaking point.

To stand with science as your foundation is silly at best. Historically all of its underlying foundations change every few years. I guess it is just like being in slow sand. It is just like evolution, so slow that you don't know your sinking.

Just accept the possibility that everyone is wrong.

357 silversmith  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 3:24:14pm

Macro/micro....look to the evidence. To say that you can prove micro evolution, but you cannot prove macro evolution is to deny the evidence of a million fossils. Watch as the steps occur. I have an algae in my yard that is half a billion years old. It was the dominant form of life on earth because it was about the only form of life on earth. I have Trilobites a quarter of a billion years old. I have Turitilla agate made from layers of Turitilla snails that lived 200 million years ago back when snails were a dominant life form. Dinosaur bone from 80 million years ago. Now we have people and all kinds of life. You can see the evolution at a cellular level as ontogony recacapitulates phiologeny. For the uneducated, this means evolution occurs in the womb. You can see it happen as a man goes from a single celled creature all the way to a man (at one point you have gills). But evidence--who needs evidence with a holy book? The fossil record supports the theory and is further supported every day.

I wish I had 250 million yeas so my offspring could evolve and I could prove my point. But then they will probably be carnivores and all of you will be their natural prey.

358 psaturn  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 3:24:30pm

re: #304 kalvinb

It wasn't too long ago that we were shocked, shocked I say, to find that a lizard had changed dramatically in all of 20 years.

Actually 30 years.

[Link: news.nationalgeographic.com...]

Italian wall lizards introduced to a tiny island off the coast of Croatia are evolving in ways that would normally take millions of years to play out, new research shows.


and to make a point it was 30 years...

While the experiment was more than 30 years in the making, it was not by design, according to Duncan Irschick, a study author and biology professor at the University of Massachusetts, Amherst.
359 silversmith  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 3:26:01pm

re: #356 franktalk
dude you rock

360 psaturn  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 3:38:03pm

re: #357 silversmith

You can see the evolution at a cellular level as ontogony recacapitulates phiologeny. For the uneducated, this means evolution occurs in the womb. You can see it happen as a man goes from a single celled creature all the way to a man (at one point you have gills). But evidence--who needs evidence with a holy book? The fossil record supports the theory and is further supported every day.

Silversmith, in case you did not know, Haeckel's Biogenetic Law: Ontogeny Recapitulates Phylogeny, has been discredited:

[Link: 8e.devbio.com...]

A disastrous union of embryology and evolutionary biology was forged in the last half of the nineteenth century by the German embryologist and philosopher, Ernst Haeckel. Based on the assumption that the laws by which species arose on this planet (phylogeny) were identical to the laws by which the individuals of the species developed (ontogeny), he viewed adult organisms as the embryonic stages of more advanced organisms.

and this author discuss further that Haeckel's Biogenetic Law is NOT DARWINISM

This notion of ontogeny recapitulating phylogeny was not Darwinism. In fact, Haeckel's synthesis was an attempt to fuse the works of Darwin, Lamarck, and Goethe. In Darwinism, contemporary species are seen as having a common ancestor. The result is a multibranched "bush." (A tree metaphor has also been used, but trees have a central axis, on which scientists have frequently placed the lineage leading up to H. sapiens.) Humans are not "higher" than chimps, but have an ancestor from which both groups diverged. In Haeckel's scheme, animals advance to new levels by adding stages to existing embryonic development. Humans were literally on the top. Interestingly, von Baer (1828) had disproven the "biogenetic law" before Haeckel ever invented it.

361 justadot  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 3:41:22pm

re: #286 Charles

…and for anyone out there with weird characters like line feeds in their file names, use

find /tmp -maxdepth 1 -cmin +60 -name '*.wrk' -print0 | xargs -0 rm -f

for NUL-separated file names that you can feed to xargs (set the -0 for xargs also.) Doesn't happen often, but it's there in the GNU version of findutils if you need it. (Better to be safe than sorry.)

362 silversmith  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 3:48:24pm

re: #360 psaturn

Thanks

But I would much rather have you show me

in your own words

why my statement is untrue.

Can you not follow evolutionary stages in (for example) any primate?

The assumption of primacy is not one I choose as evolution is an ongoing process and only the religious would view man as the top of the evolutionary system.

I await your reply

363 silversmith  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 3:52:34pm

Can you not follow evolutionary stages in (for example) any primate?

I mean by this that you can follow an evolution in the womb of any primate and follow major genitic "improvements" and or "changes" from single cell on "up".

364 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 3:57:55pm

re: #363 silversmith

Can you not follow evolutionary stages in (for example) any primate?


Yes.

365 franktalk  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 3:58:19pm

Oh yeah Haeckel, who needs scientific data when we have scissors and paste.

What we have is similar to the blind guys and the elephant. We don't have enough data and we can't go back in time so everyone just grabs little bits of data and forms gigantic conclusions.

A story

One day a cow was eating grass by the sea. He could see the fishes swimming and so wanted to be a fish. So standing in the water he said "Oh how I wish I could be a fish". His friend the cricket told him that maybe the fairy would make him a fish. As it happened the fairy did happen by and talked to the cow. The cow asked the fairy if he could become a fish. The fairy told him "Yes I can make you a fish", and waved a wand over the cow. The cow looked down and could see that he was still a cow. The cow asked the fairy why he was still a cow? The fairy said that only small changes from generation to generation could make him into a fish. The fairy said that after millions and millions of years his offspring would swim in the seas. The cow looked around and said "What a crock", and then went back to the field and ate grass.

366 Wendya  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 3:59:06pm
Behe’s arguments, like those of Biblical creationists, are heavily larded with quotations from evolutionists, many taken out of context to make it seem that our field is riven with self-doubt. More than anything else, it is this use of selective quotation that shows Behe’s close kinship to his religious predecessors.

Wow...I'm shocked!

Not.


If Behe weren't hustling ID, he'd be hustling used cars in a dirt lot outside of Las Vegas.

367 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 4:00:49pm
368 franktalk  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 4:03:06pm

re: #367 buzzsawmonkey


You made my point

369 JCM  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 4:04:15pm

re: #367 buzzsawmonkey

I am sorry to inform you that this post makes no sense.

I am sorry to inform you that this turtle on a post makes no sense.

Better. *sorry couldn't resist*

370 Josephine  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 4:06:29pm

re: #247 SayeretMatkal

You believe in a literal creation but the first thing in your comment is a blasphemy.

Nice.

Guess we can rule out Christianity in your case.

371 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 4:07:29pm
372 itellu3times  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 4:08:51pm

[lengthy and insightful rant on the subject deleted]

373 FoolsMate  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 4:10:49pm

re: #53 Peacekeeper

I believe in God and evolution, that pretty much leaves me with no friends.


Actually, in this I believe you reflect the rational majority of believers. It's a small but vocal minority that insists otherwise.

374 psaturn  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 4:13:03pm

re: #362 silversmith

Specifically which statement do you want me to discuss?

The Biogenetic Law that you referred to and I posted the answer has been discredited. It is sad that it is mentioned in textbooks still as a "fact"...when it was known that Haeckel faked it..it was the one of the original fauxtography.

Stephen Jay Gould said regarding Haeckel's Ontogeny Recapitulates Phylogeny's embyological drawings:

We should... not be surprised that Haeckel's drawings entered nineteenth-century textbooks. But we do, I think, have the right to be both astonished and ashamed by the century of mindless recycling that has led to the persistence of these drawings in a large number, if not a majority, of modern textbooks!

quote from [Link: skepticwiki.org...]

and even talkorigins.org admit this:


In the case of Haeckel, though, I have to begin by admitting that Wells has got the core of the story right. Haeckel was wrong. His theory was invalid, some of his drawings were faked, and he willfully over-interpreted the data to prop up a false thesis. Furthermore, he was influential, both in the sciences and the popular press; his theory still gets echoed in the latter today. Wells is also correct in criticizing textbook authors for perpetuating Haeckel's infamous diagram without commenting on its inaccuracies or the way it was misused to support a falsified theory.
375 mobaby  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 4:13:10pm

Truly a poorly chosen edit by Behe - giving his enemies mindless ammunition - he should have used the quote to the end of the sentence, not like it would make much difference in the meaning.

376 silversmith  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 4:13:56pm

re: #368 franktalk

the only problem with the fix the defects arguement is that we still have the algae (and all of it's fixed descendants), yet we have no (fixed) dinosaurs. Where is that fixed tyranosaur? Turitilla snails still exist (though doubtlessly improved)

Most of us believe in an event that killed them all off because the proof is in the fossil record. As conditions changed, life adapted. It will continue to adapt. In my belief.

I am still with you though.

Cockroaches rule!

377 kalvinb  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 4:14:34pm

"For the uneducated, this means evolution occurs in the womb"

For the educated, that's hilarious.

I didn't realize I "evolved" from two cells. Apparently now "growing up" is considered proof of "evolution."

Also, it only takes ~9 months to go from 2 cells to being born.

That's a far cry from millions of years.

Frogs evolve from fish (tadpoles) to amphibians. That doesn't take millions of years either.

These are wonderful examples of "evolution" that show millions of years are not needed.

378 Naso Tang  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 4:14:53pm

re: #356 franktalk

I have studied both sides of this debate. One side sees an evolutionary engine and I see a mechanism to fix defects. Just do a study of the defects in the human genome verses beneficial mutations and you will see what I see. I do agree that both sides stretch the truth to the breaking point......................

Aside from the nonsense part, your final agreement suggests that you know what is being stretched. Since you must therefore know the truth, why don't you just come out and say what it is?

379 franktalk  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 4:16:21pm

re: #371 buzzsawmonkey

200 years ago the great men of science thought they had it all figured out. They thought the men who studied science 200 years before them were in error and lived in ignorance.

Now the men of today's science think the men 200 years ago were in error and lived in ignorance.

In 200 years from now the great men of science will look at us and say the same.

You may see a repeating theme in this, then again you may not.

380 kalvinb  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 4:16:31pm

"Most of us believe in an event that killed them all off because the proof is in the fossil record"

Nobody disputes that. They're all dead. The question is the validity of dating methods as to when it happened and how.

381 psaturn  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 4:20:19pm

Silverlight, I had to go back and check your original post. Now I see what is the statement you were talking about. You are talking about MACRO evolution...and then in the later post you mention the evolution of the primates.

The evolution of primates is considered MICRO evolution.

Macro would be pre primate ancestor to primate.

Take a look at post #352 in which talkorigins.org discusses the philosophical aspect of macro evolution being reducible to micro evolution.

382 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 4:27:01pm
383 franktalk  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 4:30:35pm

re: #378 Naso Tang

Nice try. I don't know the truth. I just know that the experts don't agree and the data is weak. Just look at the uncovered complexity in molecular biology over the past few decades. Our knowledge base is expanding faster than our ability to use the data.

If I am wrong just show me the nucleotide by nucleotide transition from one species to another. Oh and by the way please list the benefit that each nucleotide change made to the original species.

If you can't do this then you have a belief in evolution.

384 psaturn  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 4:33:40pm

Skeptic Wiki has this

Haeckel's embryos are a famous, or infamous, set of pictures of embryological development, produced by the nineteeth-century biologist Ernst Haeckel, in which he faked, or at least seriously fudged, diagrams of embryological development in order to support a false hypothesis about the process of evolution


more:

Haeckel's hypothesis, which he called the "law of biogenesis", was that the development of embryos should retrace the evolutionary development of their species: usually expressed by the slogan "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny". Haeckel's hypothesis was based on a conception of evolution which is absolutely erroneous: the idea that successive evolutionary developments are tacked on to the end of the developmental process.

In Haeckel's own words, speaking of human embryological development:

At first the embryo is no more than a round cluster of cells, then it becomes a simple hollow sphere, the wall of which is composed of a layer of cells. Later it approaches very closely, at one period, to the anatomic structure of the lancelet, afterwards to that of a fish, and again to the typical build of the amphibia and mammals. As it continues to develop, a form appears which is like those we find at the lowest stage of mammal-life (such as the duck-bills), then a form that resembles the marsupials, and only at a late stage a form that has a resemblance to the ape; until at last the definite human form emerges and closes the series of transformations [...]
When we examine the human embryo in the third or fourth week of its development, we find it to be quite different in shape and structure from the full-grown human being, but almost identical with that of the ape, the dog, the rabbit, and other mammals, at the same stage of ontogeny. (Haeckel, The Evolution of Man, vol. I [1])
Almost every word of this is untrue. says Skeptic Wiki.

Further:

This is a clear case of shoehorning the evidence into the hypothesis, excluding the features which might "disturb and confuse" the reader, i.e. lead him to think that Haeckel was wrong. It is true, as Haeckel says, that diagrams in science textbooks tend to be simplified and to omit details: but such diagrams, honestly drawn, omit fiddly little details of small importance, not details which fail to mesh with the author's preferred hypothesis. If this is not a case of deliberate scientific fraud, it is at least a case of gross self-deception.

Skeptic Wiki has this comment:

We may also discount Creationist claims that the theory of evolution needs to rest on such flimsy foundations, for want of better ones: as we have pointed out, the only thing that rests on Haeckel's drawings is Haeckel's own discredited hypothesis; the theory of evolution can get by very nicely without them.

Unfortunately, it has been used to SUPPORT EVOLUTION FOR MANY YEARS...using fake drawings and WRONG Law and theory...in textbooks!

385 silversmith  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 4:35:44pm

re: #374 psaturn

You are good at researching, I will give you that, but have you shown that man does NOT start out as (shall we say) primitive bits of protien and then develop from stage to stage (granting a certain amount of past trickery and acedemic foolishness or fauxlithography). I saw this premise proved in the pig fetus, not the human.

What. In your own words have I not said correctly?

I will grant that you have out quoted me. You have yet to frame an original idea based on my arguement other than to quote people who's work you may or may not understand.

Show me your power.

386 Charles  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 4:37:28pm

The copy 'n paste brigade is back, I see.

387 franktalk  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 4:40:02pm

re: #382 buzzsawmonkey

So what is scientific fact? I would guess you may say that the Laws that have never been violated may be your answer. But then I have to ask why is evolution taught as fact when it is a theory? Why is ones group best guess any better than another group's best guess?

388 Richard Romano  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 4:47:32pm

re: #5 Honorary Yooper

It's a classic case of quote mining. It never ceases to amaze me how much these folks (YECs and IDers) have in common with liberals.

You wish -- do you have any idea how many times evolutionists caricature the positions of Creationists and proponents of ID?

This is an old quote -- and Behe has answered it. Coyne is also a jackass who didn't like his ideas being used by Behe.

What's really laughable is how evolution passes for science even when they use all kinds of unwarranted assumptions to claim that it is science...really? "On the backs of crystal" -- remember this quote from Expelled.

389 Yashmak  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 4:47:51pm
To stand with science as your foundation is silly at best.

And to stand without it is to rest in willing ignorance of the physical world around you.

Unfortunately, it has been used to SUPPORT EVOLUTION FOR MANY YEARS...using fake drawings and WRONG Law and theory...in textbooks!

-psaturn

So because Haeckl was a fraud, ID is science? If that's not your point, I'm curious what is. As SkepticWiki says, evolutionary theory doesn't need Haeckl's studies to stand. . .there's plenty of other credible evidence. And even if you could prove evolutionary theory is a fraud, it STILL wouldn't make ID anything other than religion in in scientist's clothing.

390 littleO  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 4:48:41pm

re:356 Franktalk

Thank God for some frank discussion.

I can only manage reading alittle of this progressive projection. So I'm glad to read from a doubter who percieves wrongs on both sides. I cannot see that the earths 6000 years old. Mainly because, the Bible says in the beginning the earth was void, it doesn't say how long that period was.
on the other hand, people who would deny free speech and thought in favor of a preposterous therory that mankind slivered from primordial slime are totalitarians.

391 silversmith  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 4:49:48pm

re: #377 kalvinb

re: #387 franktalk

What a hatefull bunch we can be.

I just read one on that and it was to the point. Evoloution theory is taught as theory and not as fact. However, many things tent to prove the theory. The same as the theory of relativity. It is a theory, and yet we have nuclear reactors that work according to that theory. The system works. That is the key deal.

I have a friend who has a theory that he is trying to prove that some globular clusters are older than tha known universe and he is trying to prove this by measuring the output of heavy metals from them.. (oh sure, beat me up if I am misquoting his research)

What is this knowledge going to do to you holy rollers out there if this theory even exists?

Was there a god before God?

392 Yashmak  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 4:50:29pm
But then I have to ask why is evolution taught as fact when it is a theory?

-franktalk

Because there is scientific evidence to support the underlying hypothesis, and it therefore qualifies as legitimate science. The underlying hypothesis of ID can never be scientifically tested or observed.

This must've been posted about a thousand times now, but it's like trying to hammer nails into concrete. . .it just doesn't penetrate.

393 justadot  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 4:51:11pm

re: #383 franktalk

If I am wrong just show me the nucleotide by nucleotide transition from one species to another.

If you're serious, then you can learn to use BLAST. It's not difficult — use blastn for nucleotide-to-nucleotide searches and blastp for protein-to-protein searches. Other searches are possible. As a matter of fact, NCBI has many resources that anyone can access. (Of course, this doesn't account for regulatory transcription factor binding sites which are often (but not always) found in intergenic promoter regions, along with other important features.)

But you're not serious about doing that, are you?

394 silversmith  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 4:53:19pm

sorry for not using spell check

395 silversmith  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 4:55:27pm

re: #393 justadot

Thanks

I just got blown away

396 psaturn  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 4:56:52pm

re: #385 silversmith


I will grant that you have out quoted me. You have yet to frame an original idea based on my arguement other than to quote people who's work you may or may not understand.

I have a degree in Biology.

As to your question:

I will give you that, but have you shown that man does NOT start out as (shall we say) primitive bits of protien and then develop from stage to stage (granting a certain amount of past trickery and acedemic foolishness or fauxlithography).

Well...I did study Embryology and yes we do have "stages" of development.

I also majored in Psychology and we do have "stages" of development psychologically too...

Does it support the view that what we go through is what the theory of evolution said we came from? That is not supportable by evidences we have so far.

It actually becomes a philosophical question.

397 justadot  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 4:59:23pm

re: #395 silversmith

Thanks. You probably could learn how to do it in a short amount of time. Think of it as being similar to searching for words in text. (Of course, the background info may take some time for assimilation, but hey, it's possible.)

398 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 5:05:03pm
399 silversmith  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 5:05:40pm

re: #396 psaturn

Thanks,

I am much more comfortable with this 'hypothetical' format.

Words be words mon. De truth of de words be in the speaker and in Jah love, not in Babylon.

"Does it support the view that what we go through is what the theory of evolution said we came from? That is not supportable by evidences we have so far."

This is the crux of what you are saying I think. Please explain what you mean because I just don't get what you are saying. Clarify thanks.

400 silversmith  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 5:14:29pm

Unless I am mistaken, evolution theory say that what we are going through affects our offspring more than it affects us. Our parents past, and their parents ten thousand generations past has shaped us into the splendidly adapted folks we are today.

401 dhimmimoore  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 5:16:31pm

This constant attack on all things ID is getting old. It seems to me like this blog has been bent on purging all things conservative that don't fall into a narrow line defined by Charles and the increasingly shrill group of loyalists here.

Maybe it started with the insane reactions to anything Ron Paul. Ron Paul is a fascist, right. How big of an idiot do you have to be to believe that?

But then came the post with a healthy amount of "anti-catholicism" comparing Imams to pedophile priests. Haha. Like a comparison with Judaism would be tolerated.

And now day in and day out we see threads packed with complete intolerance to anything outside the accepted dogma of Darwin.

Behe states in his book that he does not believe in young earth creationism. He doesn't claim to have any evidence of anything, except evidence of intelligence behind the way life works. And the reaction here is sickening.

I can't believe how hateful these threads get...it's like HuffPo.

How many of you are Pro-Choice?
Pro gay-marriage?
Support birth control, contraception in public education?

If you look at the candidates issue by issue, you probably have more in common with Obama than the Republicans.

And remember Charles, your darling CATHOLIC friend William F. Buckley, would probably have similar words regarding the freaking-out over ID that goes on here:
[Link: www.nationalreview.com...]

Lame.

402 jaunte  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 5:18:19pm

Darn, I ran out of litmus paper.

403 silversmith  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 5:21:43pm

How many of you are Pro-Choice?
Pro gay-marriage?
Support birth control, contraception in public education?

Guilty as charged

As they said in "Lemmings" Long hair, short hair----what the hell's the difference when the heads blowed off?

national lampoon

Lemmings

go put your stereotype where the sun don't shine

so ban me

404 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 5:23:09pm

re: #401 dhimmimoore

How many of you are Pro-Choice?
Pro gay-marriage?
Support birth control, contraception in public education?


Me!re: #401 dhimmimoore


Me!

Maybe it started with the insane reactions to anything Ron Paul.


Ha, ha! You're a Paulian.

405 silversmith  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 5:24:50pm

This means I support these issues:
How many of you are Pro-Choice?
Pro gay-marriage?
Support birth control, contraception in public education?
I am pro fossil record.

406 dhimmimoore  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 5:25:37pm

re: #403 silversmith

go put your stereotype where the sun don't shine

It wasn't a stereotype, it was a question based on the comments I see posted here. But your reaction is a typical huffpo style Kos-comment that are increasing here.

One guy got the F-word hurled at him for using the admittedly Christian term "old testament."

Can we not refer, in the year 2008, to the two parts of the bible in use by Christians as the old and new testament?

407 dhimmimoore  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 5:27:42pm

re: #404 Killgore Trout

Ha, ha! You're a Paulian.

Real mature. Exactly what I mean. Go in and bash Catholics real quick too. I know you want to.

408 jaunte  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 5:29:09pm

re: #406 dhimmimoore

That 'one guy' you refer to was banned shortly afterwards for suggesting the Jews needed to stop 'using the holocaust,' so there were some other issues around that conversation than just the old testament terminology.

409 dhimmimoore  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 5:30:32pm

re: #408 jaunte

That 'one guy' you refer to was banned shortly afterwards for suggesting the Jews needed to stop 'using the holocaust,' so there were some other issues around that conversation than just the old testament terminology.

He got hurled the F-word prior to that...it was directly related to using the term "old testament." My surprise was at the use of the F-word, not the offense taken to the term.

410 Ceemack  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 5:30:56pm

re: #144 Trelane

LGF used to be a more thoughtful, intelligent, sophisticated forum. That was about 3 years ago. Recently, with the attacks by Charles (and his echo chamber chorus) on religious beliefs, this has become, sadly, a secular version of Huffpo. Well, so be it Charles.

Trelane, your lack of objectivity is showing.

Charles has posted a number of items that point up the absurdity of the intelligent design "theory" in general, and in particular the drive to have it taught in public schools. Simply put, intelligent design is an attempt by some to couch the Judeo/Christian creation myth put forward at the beginning of Genesis as a legitimate scientific theory.

But the creation myth is not science; it's just a story. To teach creationism or "intelligent design" as science is to reject science.

Nowhere in any of this is there a criticism of Judaism or Christianity. The fact that scientific evidence disproves a creation myth written over 2,000 years ago--at a time when such myths were common--doesn't mean that Jehovah isn't in his heaven, watching down upon you. It simply means that somebody writing a story before the dawn of science got it wrong on how the earth came into existence.

The unwillingness on the part of creationists and ID theorists to recognize facts--like the accuracy of carbon dating, the clear existence of transitional forms, etc.--is reminiscent of the unwillingness of many people on the left to recognize the fact that many in the Islamic world want us to either convert or die.

No one's questioning your religion. But your objectivity is highly suspect.

411 dhimmimoore  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 5:31:39pm

I know where this is going. "If you don't like it here, than leave." Got it. It's just too bad after all these years to see it change this way.

412 jaunte  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 5:31:42pm

re: #409 dhimmimoore

I think, re-reading the thread, there was provocation which resulted in an emotional response.

413 BBev  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 5:31:58pm

re: #407 dhimmimoore

Real mature. Exactly what I mean. Go in and bash Catholics real quick too. I know you want to.

I have gave up on defending my religion here. I'm Catholic and proud of it nuff said, Dude there are bigger fish to fry so if you can't stand the heat get out of the oven.

414 amused  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 5:32:09pm

re: #101 nikis-knight

If you go here and enter Behe and malaria in the search box, you will get several dozen hits. I remember that there's at least one that takes the issue on directly. Be warned, that's PZ Myers' site and he's very hard on ID/creationism. But, if you want refutations of ID's claims from an actual scientist, PZ's the one to do it.

415 silversmith  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 5:33:50pm

guys and gals,

time to go live a life. class of 69 renuion. my ancestors will see you in 2069. may you have peace until then. thanks for the chat

416 Sharmuta  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 5:35:53pm

re: #411 dhimmimoore

I know where this is going. "If you don't like it here, than leave." Got it. It's just too bad after all these years to see it change this way.

You don't have to leave. Just read and comprehend what the real issue is instead of falling for the discovery institute's meme. Unless, of course, you're opposed to taking a little time and learning that which you don't understand.

417 dhimmimoore  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 5:39:39pm

re: #416 Sharmuta

Unless, of course, you're opposed to taking a little time and learning that which you don't understand.

I actually don't care about ID. I don't believe in young-earth Creationism.

It is the tone, and the incessant focus on this issue, and the division it is causing, and the hatefulness hurled at Christians who do believe in creationism that bugs me. It didn't used to be like this.

418 Franktalk  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 5:39:41pm

re: #393 justadot

Thank you so much for the link to a genome database. But what I asked for I know does not exist. In much the same way that some people use these databases I could use a parts list for a Chevy and a Buick. I could show all of the common parts and how each car evolved from the ground. Of course I would have to make sweeping assumptions and gloss over huge gaps in the data, in the same way that evolutionist use the genome and fossils.

You see, I have no horse in this race. It is only a matter of where you place your faith. One can place their faith in the ideas of man or they can place their faith in the supernatural. They both require faith and neither has proof. I have an open mind to the data of science, I however do not accept man's theories blindly. I don't see enough data for me to accept evolution.

419 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 5:41:21pm
420 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 5:41:21pm

re: #407 dhimmimoore

Go in and bash Catholics real quick too. I know you want to.


The Pope's hat is silly.
/There, I said it.

421 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 5:42:15pm
422 Sharmuta  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 5:42:46pm

re: #417 dhimmimoore

You and I are not reading the same blog. The so-called hatefulness you see, I'm seeing from the other end. There is a outright contempt for science being shown on these threads every time one goes up, and many of the people defending science are *gasp* religious- some are Catholic, some are Jewish, etc. You have blinders on, and are only seeing what you want to see.

423 jaunte  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 5:42:55pm

I'm fed up with people saying Unitarians are wishy washy. On the other hand...

424 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 5:43:09pm

re: #421 buzzsawmonkey

Heh. I feel the need to change back my avatar.

425 Hooray for Captain Spaulding  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 5:44:35pm

I am actually reading this site much more often now that Mr Johnson has put up science posts.

I do agree, however, the anti Catholic sentiment here was a bit ridiculous.

426 Sharmuta  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 5:44:38pm

re: #424 Killgore Trout

You should think up some anti-DI avatar.

427 Sharmuta  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 5:45:26pm

re: #426 Sharmuta

You should think up some anti-DI avatar.

Behe as a monkey, perhaps.

428 Franktalk  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 5:46:09pm

re: #398 buzzsawmonkey

At least the wizard of OZ hid behind a curtain when he tried to pass off his phoney image.

Experiment when possible, what a joke.

429 amused  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 5:46:25pm

re: #423 jaunte

Heh.

Cross a UU with a Jehovah's Witness, and you get somebody that knocks on your door for no apparent reason.

430 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 5:50:08pm

re: #426 Sharmuta

I could put Darwin's head on god but who could tell the difference?

431 aikidoka  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 5:58:39pm

This post would have some value, other than as the mere anti-ID circle jerk that it is, if it had also presented Behe's response and compared that to what Coyne claimed.

Also, judging from the comments, I would be justified in dismissing arguments for naturalism only, because of the many straw man, genetic, and ad hom fallacies directed at ID that I've seen over time.

432 godfrey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 5:59:12pm

re: #430 Killgore Trout

Me, me!

433 godfrey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:00:38pm

re: #419 buzzsawmonkey

So where all this offended huffing and puffing is coming from I just cannot see.

Cruciferous vegetables.

434 Charles  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:02:23pm

Belief in evolution does not preclude belief in God.

435 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:02:36pm
436 Charles  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:02:52pm

Belief in God does not preclude belief in evolution.

437 Charles  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:03:41pm

Do not trust those who try to insist otherwise.

438 godfrey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:05:09pm

Who are these people?

439 Sharmuta  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:06:09pm

re: #419 buzzsawmonkey

So where all this offended huffing and puffing is coming from I just cannot see.

It's coming from those who've fallen for the discovery institute's talking point.

It's an either/or dichotomy they've built up in their own minds- that to support science means you don't support faith, which is a false choice and a fallacy.

440 Dan G.  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:08:56pm

re: #439 Sharmuta

I'd say its more than that. There's a bit too much intentional and active dissemination of disinformation for me to assume that they've simply fallen for some talking points.

441 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:09:29pm

re: #434 Charles

Belief in evolution does not preclude belief in God.

Their complaint is that belief in (or, as I view it, acceptance of the overwhelming scientific evidence for) evolution does not MANDATE a belief in a deity, since evolution could occur with or without the existance of such a being, while belief in creationism, whether it's PR-labeled 'intelligent design' or not, does indeed mandate belief in such a deity. Or else, belief in older smart space aliens (which themselves could have either been created by such a deity or evolved, with or without the help of one), but who really believes that this is an alternative that motivates them?

442 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:12:14pm
443 pingjockey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:12:37pm

Are we at this again? I do like Charles 2 statements though.

444 Sharmuta  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:13:29pm

re: #440 Dan G.

Oh- some of them are active shills, to be sure. I'm just trying to give some the benefit of the doubt in that perhaps they just don't know the players at work here. Perhaps I give too much benefit.... but then again- never underestimate the power of willful ignorance. They just don't want to take the time to learn.

I've been accused before of setting my targets too quickly. I guess I'm trying to show a little more restraint.

445 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:15:30pm

Is this the Shinto-bashing thread? I'm looking for the Shinto-bashing thread.

446 Vikingstar  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:16:56pm

After reading the comments from Jerry Coyne that stated that he was taken out of context, I decided to get a copy of Behe's book and look into the matter.
This is what I've found:
Coyle is correct when he says that Behe ended his sentance with a period, and didn't complete the quote.

Now, in the context of what Behe was writing about (his chapter 2, "Nuts and bolts"), he is making the case
that many evoluntionists are questioning the neo-Darwinian view that very many very slight changes over many millions of years can account for evolutionary history. He quotes, among others, Gould, Eldredge, and Richard Goldschmidt (who coined the phrase "hopeful monster"). Gould and others are proponents of "punctuated equilibrium"--the theory that "most species undergo little observable change" for long periods of time ("long" meaning tens of millions of years), and then change occurs rapidly " and in small, isolated populations", to quote Behe (pages 26-27). So, to put Behe in context, he is stating that there is dissatisfaction with the traditional Darwinist view, and that there is some movement towards Gould's view.
It is in this context that he quotes a number of scientists, Coyne among them--not that they have ceased accepting evolution, but that they are increasingly unaccepting of Darwinism. Coyne himself, in his article, states that the neodarwinian view concerning large mutations has little actual evidence--not that it is therefore not correct, but that it was largely accepted without evidence, and that there needs to be further research to validate the somewhat untested asumptions that have been made--not that (according to Coyne) the materialistic view of evolution isn't true, but which view should predominate.
So, ironically enough, Coyne actually takes Behe out of context. Although at first analysis Behe's use of the quote is misleading, and I think improperly used, it is also clear from the full context of Behe's chapter 2 that he is not claiming that Coyne or anyone else he quotes has ceased believing in materialistic evolution--quite the opposite.
I think that Behe, and Coyne, and any theory or belief, publicly offered, is fair game for criticism. I also think that that criticism should be informed and accurate. Behe was wrong to conflate Coyles' article. Coyle, in turn was wrong to misstate Behe and not accurately quote him or place him in proper context.
I invite any Lizard to examine Coyne, examine Behe, and agree with my critique or take me to task.

447 godfrey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:17:38pm

re: #441 Salamantis

Their complaint is that belief in ... evolution does not MANDATE a belief in a deity, since evolution could occur with or without the existance of such a being

Well, they're wrong there, too. Nothing could occur without a creative being predating it. You cannot get something from nothing. All sorts of things can be logically derived from this, cf. Aquinas Summa contra gentiles for some fun reading. What puzzles me is the YEC conception of divine creative activity, and how that's present to evolving creation. Their theology seems wack, too, among all the other wack things.

448 godfrey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:18:31pm

re: #445 Occasional Reader

hippie hodie bashy
frilly frodo lashy
wiki wazikashi woo

449 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:20:36pm

re: #448 godfrey

Your beliefs are total bullshidoshit!

450 Josephine  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:21:25pm

re: #425 Hooray for Captain Spaulding

This is my opinion.

I have read "anti-Catholic" and "anti-Christian" statements here on occasion (never by Charles Johnson). Those statements usually have something to do with the topic (for example, the Pope reintroducing a prayer for the conversion of Jews) or with a comment someone else has made in a thread.

Rather than take anything personally, I try to understand why the person in question feels so strongly about it. Maybe their anger or hostility is justified or, at the very least, understandable. I have learned something valuable even from the most vehement poster.

On the other hand, some people have come on here and started bashing a religious group out of the blue. Someone who did that recently was banned, pronto.

Don't expect your religious beliefs to be coddled by people of different faiths or of no faith. If you make a statement about your beliefs, expect that someone might take exception to it and tell you so. This is less like a room full of polite strangers and more like a room full of relatives who are ready to tell you when they think you or your ideas are full of **** and even to laugh in your face if you can't present a good argument for your side. But they are usually more than willing to hear you out if you are also willing to listen to their point of view. Most are here to learn, after all, and most enjoy a good debate.

That's what it is. Like it or lump it, as my dear old Ma used to say.

451 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:21:33pm

re: #447 godfrey

Nothing could occur without a creative being predating it.

Of course, there's a very obvious logical problem with that statement.

452 godfrey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:23:07pm

re: #449 Occasional Reader

Aw, katan' it out! I'm tryin' to keep my edge.

453 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:26:10pm

re: #447 godfrey

Well, they're wrong there, too. Nothing could occur without a creative being predating it. You cannot get something from nothing. All sorts of things can be logically derived from this, cf. Aquinas Summa contra gentiles for some fun reading. What puzzles me is the YEC conception of divine creative activity, and how that's present to evolving creation. Their theology seems wack, too, among all the other wack things.

re: #451 Occasional Reader

Of course, there's a very obvious logical problem with that statement.

I guess he believes that it's gods all the way down...;~)

454 godfrey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:26:34pm

re: #451 Occasional Reader

Yes, the misleading word there is "predating." What I really mean to describe is being that is not in time. Time itself is only relative and therefore measurable movement, i.e. something that exists after creation.

The condition in which anything occurs is, Aquinas thinks, "infinite existence."

455 Charles  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:28:17pm

re: #144 Trelane

So now the Bell Curve is suspect?

Just realized what your purpose is here -- and you'll have to post about this stuff somewhere else, because you aren't welcome here.

456 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:29:28pm
457 godfrey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:29:34pm

re: #453 Salamantis

I guess he believes that it's gods all the way down...;~)

One God, mind you. And at a certain level, yes, I do. The universe, I believe, is sustained in being by infinite being. God's being is present, all the way down to z-particles, if you like.

458 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:31:44pm

re: #454 godfrey

What I really mean to describe is being that is not in time.

You mean one that claps on the one and the four?

459 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:32:57pm

re: #455 Charles

Just realized what your purpose is here -- and you'll have to post about this stuff somewhere else, because you aren't welcome here.

What do you think his/her purpose is?

460 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:34:50pm

re: #457 godfrey

One God, mind you. And at a certain level, yes, I do. The universe, I believe, is sustained in being by infinite being. God's being is present, all the way down to z-particles, if you like.

Okay. But then why not posit an eternally-existing, but entirely natural, universe/proto-universe? On what basis do you assign self-awareness (among other qualities) to this "infinite" requirement?

461 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:35:16pm
462 godfrey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:35:38pm

re: #458 Occasional Reader

lol

I love that I gained notoriety from that. Soon I'll have you all clapping in syncopated triplet rhythms! Then you'll all feel the Trinity in your collective asses, and the world will explode with light, mirth, and plentiful Martinis.

The Taoists got it right to believe that the Ground of Being is, like the probabilistic clouds at that quantum level, "creative." Things emerge out of it, and fall back into it. It's happening right now, in the molecular structure of your forearms.

463 Sharmuta  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:38:20pm

re: #462 godfrey

Taoist would not argue with evolution, they would accept it as the Tao.

464 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:38:45pm

Actually, since spacetime is created via gravity by matter/energy, it makes no sense to speak of a 'before' the Big Bang, any more than it makes any sense to speak of any 'outside' the Universe.

Something may indeed issue from nothing, via quantum fluctuation, if that nothing happens to be unstable.

465 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:40:25pm

re: #461 buzzsawmonkey

If I recall, "The Bell Curve" advocated some sort of racial rating. I suspect that the favorable mention of it was to tar the site with the "racist" brush.

I don't recall that it "advocated" racial rating of any kind. It made the entirely factual observation that there are predictable, repeated differences in performance on IQ tests among different racial and ethnic groups. An ugly fact, but it's a fact. Dinesh D'Souza makes the same point in The End of Racism, and if I recall correctly so did John McWhorter in Losing the Race.

IIRC, The Bell Curve did not attempt to explain this statistical fact (which is where the rubber meets the road, so to speak); nor were the book's factual assertions ever debunked.

Like the saying goes, "there's no such thing as a racist fact".

466 godfrey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:40:57pm

re: #460 Occasional Reader

Because "positing" that is merely to bracket the question of origin, which is inescapable.

Self-awareness is getting ahead of things. I remember following Aquinas closely on that very point, because I wanted to see the point at which his deduction stopped and his a posteriori logic kicked in. It did at some point, but he got very far in inferring all sorts of "properties" (if you will) of infinite existence. "Knowledge" being one of them.

I can't rehearse its details. It's been too long. It got pretty far along, though.

467 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:43:17pm

re: #465 Occasional Reader

there are predictable, repeated differences in performance on IQ tests among different racial and ethnic groups

I should add; as a generality, of course.

468 godfrey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:45:00pm

re: #464 Salamantis

Sounds like a lot of assumptions, Sal. I think the very word "unstable" assumes "something" that is unstable, otherwise there would be nothing to be stable or unstable. Aren't we back to the regress?

469 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:45:49pm

If anyone would like to see what a debate between different schools of evolutionary theory looks like, here's one:

The Spandrels of San Marco and the Panglossian Paradigm:
A Critique of the Adaptationist Programme
STEPHEN JAY GOULD AND RICHARD C. LEWONTIN

[Link: www.aaas.org...]

470 godfrey  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:48:55pm

Sal, it doesn't make scientific sense to talk of "before" the Bang. And I actually agree that talking about "after" the Bang is worth generations upon generations of productive reflection. I just find myself juiced by the metaphysical questions, and maybe that is just a function of sheer gratitude and wonder. Cheers to all.

471 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:56:19pm

No, godfrey, the possibility of nothing being unstable just means that it is an unfounded assumption to posit that nothing just eternally stays that way. Just like it is an unfounded assumption to posit the necessity of an eternal and/or omnipositionally circumscribing something, just because there is something rather than nothing here/now. We can't even post that something will of necessity stay that way. An accounting of dark matter and dark energy may yet revive the Big crunch to bookend the Big Bang.

That would actually be quite an elegant solution. I can imagine the Universe expanding for 20 billion years to a maximum that it does not retain for any period of time, then collapsing back for 20 billion more into a minimum that does not subsist for any amount of time, either. Each Big bang would simultaneously be the previous Big crunch, each Big Crunch would be simultaneously the next Big Bang, and the Universe could be a perpetually cyclical thing.

472 hazzyday  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:57:14pm

From Wikipedia.

Creationism is a religious belief that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe were created in their original form by a deity (often the Abrahamic God of Judaism, Christianity and Islam) or deities, whose existence is presupposed.[1] In relation to the creation-evolution controversy the term creationism (or strict creationism) is commonly used to refer to religiously-motivated rejection of evolution.[2]

Such beliefs include young Earth creationism, which takes Book of Genesis literally, while Old Earth creationism accepts geological findings but rejects evolution. The term theistic evolution has been coined to refer to beliefs in creation which are more compatible with the scientific view of evolution and the age of the Earth.

--

There seem to be three main types of creationists. Two seem very much to be science fiction not science. One I consider myself aligned to.

There is a certain type of personality that is unable to deal with allegory. Those types can read the Bible just once and pronounce their understanding and interpetation as the the exact one. The problems come when reading any of it a second time and finding one's understanding different from the first read. The understanding has evolved. God's creation has evolved. There is your proof of evolution. The problem also comes when the spouse reads it differently.

If one finds oneself in the "young earth" camp, one should certainly consider trying to more open minded about 'everything' including the chruch one belongs to. By all means it's ok to believe. But don't set yourself up for so much disappointment. Tryning to force this immature idea into the public consciousness will only result in rejection. I suppose that is how "young earthers" learn how to be tolerant and kind.

473 Psaturn  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 6:58:30pm

re: #446 Vikingstar

After reading the comments from Jerry Coyne that stated that he was taken out of context, I decided to get a copy of Behe's book and look into the matter.
This is what I've found:
Coyle is correct when he says that Behe ended his sentance with a period, and didn't complete the quote.

Now, in the context of what Behe was writing about (his chapter 2, "Nuts and bolts"), he is making the case
that many evoluntionists are questioning the neo-Darwinian view that very many very slight changes over many millions of years can account for evolutionary history. He quotes, among others, Gould, Eldredge, and Richard Goldschmidt (who coined the phrase "hopeful monster"). Gould and others are proponents of "punctuated equilibrium"--the theory that "most species undergo little observable change" for long periods of time ("long" meaning tens of millions of years), and then change occurs rapidly " and in small, isolated populations", to quote Behe (pages 26-27). So, to put Behe in context, he is stating that there is dissatisfaction with the traditional Darwinist view, and that there is some movement towards Gould's view.
It is in this context that he quotes a number of scientists, Coyne among them--not that they have ceased accepting evolution, but that they are increasingly unaccepting of Darwinism. Coyne himself, in his article, states that the neodarwinian view concerning large mutations has little actual evidence--not that it is therefore not correct, but that it was largely accepted without evidence, and that there needs to be further research to validate the somewhat untested asumptions that have been made--not that (according to Coyne) the materialistic view of evolution isn't true, but which view should predominate.
So, ironically enough, Coyne actually takes Behe out of context. Although at first analysis Behe's use of the quote is misleading, and I think improperly used, it is also clear from the full context of Behe's chapter 2 that he is not claiming that Coyne or anyone else he quotes has ceased believing in materialistic evolution--quite the opposite.
I think that Behe, and Coyne, and any theory or belief, publicly offered, is fair game for criticism. I also think that that criticism should be informed and accurate. Behe was wrong to conflate Coyles' article. Coyle, in turn was wrong to misstate Behe and not accurately quote him or place him in proper context.
I invite any Lizard to examine Coyne, examine Behe, and agree with my critique or take me to task.

I really appreciated you doing the work. I was going to check Behe's book specifically to see the context that Coyne's was quoted.

So it seems that Coyne took Behe out of context here and made a mountain out of a little dot (period).

474 Kulhwch  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 7:10:54pm

re: #247 SayeretMatkal

Jesus Christ...

So should we talk about all those hoax "missing link men"?

You know, the one that was assumed from a mere pig tooth?

Maybe somebody should, I don't know, make a whole blog about the dishonesty that evolutionists have spewed?

It's funny how you CONTINUALLY slam and slam and slam ID and people who believe, every way you can Charles. It's subtle, I'll admit, you never blatantly attack, but you nitpick, you find what faults you can and hide it under the blanket of "I'm defending science from religious loonies".

I'm sorry Charles, I don't mind a little debate or controversy, and I've endured years of being ridiculed for my beliefs in literal Creation (I'm quite used to it), but this is just obnoxious.

You claim to be an advocate of science, but you do your best to smother every ID intellectual out there, completely ignoring the bullsh*t that evolutionists have propagated.

To you Charles, it seems a one way argument. You'll smear every single last ID thing you can (And have, so far), but God forbid ANYBODY respond with something that shows the faults of evolution!

In summary- my last remaining ounce of respect for you is gone, sir. In your own little way, you're as bad as any liberal nutcase who wants to repress the opposing views. You're actually DESTROYING scientific thought.

Whatever. I'm sure 99% of the lizards here will give me uber negative ratings, but I don't care, it had to be said, I'm tired of sitting on the sidelines.

Would you like a nice cheese to go with that?

}:)     [Per your content, we suggest either Schapenkeutelkaas or Casa Marzu ... ]

475 justadot  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 7:50:46pm

re: #418 Franktalk

Thank you so much for the link to a genome database.

No, you have no idea what you're saying. What I gave you was a link to NCBI BLAST(Basic Local Alignment Search Tool), an widely-used application which you could use for this:

If I am wrong just show me the nucleotide by nucleotide transition from one species to another.

It uses a well-known algorithm that you could easily learn, if you'd bother.

Now what you could do is take every gene from one genome, and "BLAST" it against the genomes of other species. For each gene (or gene product, as in the translated protein), it will give you a hit for how similar they are in sequence. This would be a start on seeing the "nucleotide by nucleotide" transition that you mention. If you know a scripting language like python or perl (or ruby, etc.), you could make it even easier. I've actually done this, and it wasn't all that difficult. Of course, no one handed to me on a silver platter.

Instead you say

But what I asked for I know does not exist.

If you wish to remain ignorant, then there's very little I can do to stop you, other than post relevant information pertaining to the topic. However, you're insulting my intelligence now, along with everyone else who either reads or posts here.

Don't make demands of others if you're not even going to do your homework. I mean something more substantial than cut-and-pasting.

476 SayeretMatkal  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 7:55:58pm

re: #276 Charles

I'm destroying scientific thought, all by myself?

Wow. Not bad.

Scientific thought- observing, theorizing, experimentation to discover what holds water and what doesn't, yes? Continual smearing of ID proponents without considering the evidence they bring, deliberately and viciously attacking the entire thing until it can no longer be held as a "viable option" to consider.

That is how scientific thought is stuttered and inevitably ruined.

Also (this is not directed at Charles),

I don't remember who (and I don't have the time to browse for it at the moment), but somebody brought up the Discovery Institute, as if I somehow claimed to support them? Where did I type that? Please, indulge me with a quote. Believing in ID (Biblical creation in my case) doesn't mean my default support goes to the D-Institute. There's far more to be had from the ID argument without the inclusion of the D-Institute.

477 Charles  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 7:59:29pm

re: #476 SayeretMatkal

That is how scientific thought is stuttered and inevitably ruined.

Really? I did not know that.

478 Hanoch  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 8:04:36pm

re: #19 DavidM01

Agreed. Well said.

I doubt you'll get anyone to address your point head-on, however. I've tried.

479 greenbear  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 8:05:51pm

Man, oh, man,

I can't tell you how completely sick of this subject I am.

Can we please just skip it? At least until after the fall elections.

Who is going to convert anyone? Neither side (or six sides or however many there are) is going to give.

I would venture to say that just about every lizardoid here is extremely confident and secure in his/her own views especialy something as fundamental as this subject. We're all pretty strong personalities with backbones. Certain secular areas will allow some sway, such as accepting McCain as the Republican candidate, but no one of any mettle will abandon thier belief system over a blog entry from someone they've never met. Would you?

One reason I never discuss religion with my friends is that it always devolves into a bitter fight and somebody calls somebody a "moron" and no one changes their mind.

Every time I see a thread on evolution or ID, it reminds of a kid picking at a scab. The cut will never heal.

Plus, it distracts us from the important fight we have ahead of us. We need every lizardoid we can get and we'll need to work together.

So, I beg that we shelve this topic until after November. Then we can have a monkey party at the Scopes house and cover it all you want.

Or we could talk about globular cl-, no, I dare not speak their name. I'll be struck down where I stand.

Man, am I ever tired...

GreenBear

480 Wendya  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 8:10:35pm

re: #476 SayeretMatkal


That is how scientific thought is stuttered and inevitably ruined.

The credibility of "science" is damaged when scientists discard normal procedure in order to embrace garbage like anthropological global warming and Intelligent design.

"We can't figure out how this happened so God did it" is not a valid scientific conclusion.

481 ProcessSlave  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 8:57:22pm

re: #144 Trelane

'Amen' to that!

[That is, if you'll pardon the religious language ... apparently increasingly abhorrent to the LGF Worldview]

I have been an avid daily reader of LGF for two years, but am getting increasingly disillusioned with the anti-Christian rhetoric.

[Notwithstanding those Lizards who claim that you can deny that 'God made the heavens and the earth, and all that is in them' ... yet still be Christian]

Naturally, I had never assumed for one moment that the Lizard community generally held any particular religious convictions ... but to discover that it is so antithetical to faith has been disappointing.

Just when it seemed we were in this battle together, it appears from some of the comments that the prevailing LGF opinion is to lump Christian believers together with Liberals and Islamo-fascists.

Guess I'll be mosey-in' on over to Moonbattery where the proprietor seems a little more appreciative of Judao-Christian heritage and persuasion.

482 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 9:07:37pm

re: #481 ProcessSlave


I have been an avid daily reader of LGF for two years, but am getting increasingly disillusioned with the anti-Christian rhetoric.


What part of the Bible states that the Disco Institute is divine? I must have missed that part.

483 FinnAgain  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 9:15:29pm

Best. Purge. Ever.

484 RickD  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 9:30:43pm

Ever notice this favorable review of Behe's latest bookDarwin & Co., Ltd. Just how limited? by Terry Scambray hosted at victorhanson.com? Scambray is apparently a retired English Prof from Fresno State, where I think Hanson lives.

I used to think that VDHanson was, um, smart. But for some reason he thinks that he knows something about evolution, or he thinks that Behe knows something about evolution. I think he's wrong either way.

485 AlFromChicago  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 9:54:39pm

I believe in God and evolution. Neither Darwin nor evolution explain where we came from.

Btw, the original title of On the Origin of the Species was On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life. I don't know why he used the word "origin" because it doesn't explain where life came from, only how it adapts. Darwin's logic was used by the Eugenicists - many who were Progressives. Yes, what we call Liberals today were big on applying Darwin's ideas to people.

Keep in mind that the Republican Party was founded on getting rid of slavery and it was the Democrats who were a big part of the problem.

If you read up on it, you'll see that Progressives loved Fascism. It wasn't until Hitler's atrocities that Liberals did the switcheroo and convinced people that Fascism was part of the right. Of course, Fascism, Socialism, Communism, Progressivism are all about central control.

Classical Liberalism and Conservatism are about the individual. As we can all see, today's Modern Liberal despises the individual and loves central control based on elitists running the government.

BTW, I'm not discounting evolution, but I think it is important how this science has been used over the years. Also, I'm tried of the continued whitewash of Modern Liberalism.

Separately, many of you will enjoy the video "HOW MODERN LIBERALS THINK." It's not related to evolution, but it does explain why Modern Liberals are wrong most of the time. null

486 lightmourn  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 10:02:18pm

Oh geez. Charles, really? Michael Behe isn't a creationist (from what I know). Explain how this is pertinent? Why are you also on a crusade to defend evolutionism? What have you invested in it? I don't know why you just stick to what you know, and what brings this blog together - Islamic fascism.

487 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 10:04:23pm

re: #486 lightmourn


Why are you also on a crusade to defend evolutionism? What have you invested in it?


I suspect it's those Zionist checks.
/.Follow the money

488 lightmourn  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 10:18:43pm

Wow. Negative two already. This is turning into digg. The pluses or minuses don't have anything to do with the poster, but whether or not the reader agrees with his viewpoint. Sad.

489 Charles  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 10:21:07pm

You creationists are really turning in a pathetic whining performance tonight.

490 Hanoch  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 10:21:32pm

re: #484 RickD

I used to think that VDHanson was, um, smart.

Well, given his achievements, I'd have to say VD Hanson is a bit more than just "smart." Denigrating someone's intelligence because he may hold different views than you is generally not the best approach to making a point. All the more so if the person whose intelligence you are denigrating is able to run circles around you in that area.

491 johnny 100 pesos  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 10:22:50pm

re: #446 Vikingstar

Great point, Vikingstar!

I know that so many folks will be going around thinking about how terrible Behe is without looking further into the context in which he used the quote (making his accusers guilty of the very thing they are accusing him of).

I also know that Behe has had far worse done to him. Here he is accused of using an incomplete quote, but he is also the victim of being misquoted, one famous misquoting taking a life of it's own.

During the Kitzmiller v. Dover trial, Judge Jones was handed a brief by the ACLU, which became 90% of Jones' findings, copied and pasted. This included a misquote of Behe (which can be verified by comparing the trial transcript to both the brief and the decision). Even Ken Miller used the misquote in his latest book, rather than what Behe actually said.

I am not accusing the ACLU of being deliberate in it's misquoting while attacking ID...

But surely this is of more concern.

492 Charles  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 10:25:16pm

re: #491 johnny 100 pesos

Michael Behe's work is fraudulent and bogus in so many ways, this article doesn't even scratch the surface.

493 lightmourn  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 10:27:48pm

Please Charles, use your overwhelming credentials in the subject to get the real deep down dirt on the subject.

494 gman  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 10:33:42pm

re: #486 lightmourn

Oh geez. Charles, really? Michael Behe isn't a creationist (from what I know). Explain how this is pertinent? Why are you also on a crusade to defend evolutionism?


I thought it was pretty clear from all of Charles' posts. He doesn't want ID taught in science class because it is not science.

I don't know why you just stick to what you know, and what brings this blog together - Islamic fascism.

What does it take for you to consider someone knowledgeable?

495 Charles  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 10:34:42pm

There's really only so much of this stuff I'm willing to put up with. The fanatics are bad enough, but even worse are the sneaky propagandists.

496 Hanoch  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 10:36:58pm

For anyone interested in a more moderate view of the evolution/intelligent design debate I'd recommend Peter Wood's article in National Review Online.

He argues for a "middle ground"

just about where President Bush pointed. If students study biology in school, they need know a good bit about evolution with a small e. Beyond that, it wouldn't hurt them to know about Evolution, Creation (or "Intelligent Design") as well. I don't carry a brief for Michael Behe, the intelligent-design proponent at Lehigh University, or the movement that he has started. But I also don't think science is well served by elevating to the status of unquestionable truth the image of a material universe governed solely by random and otherwise inexplicable events. That's a worldview, not a scientific conclusion, and it has no better claim to our intellectual assent than views that postulate an underlying purpose, meaning, or destination for humanity.

497 gman  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 10:37:02pm

re: #486 lightmourn

Oh geez. Charles, really? Michael Behe isn't a creationist (from what I know). Explain how this is pertinent? Why are you also on a crusade to defend evolutionism? What have you invested in it? I don't know why you just stick to what you know, and what brings this blog together - Islamic fascism.


Also, why do you care what brings this blog together when you have only contributed 18 comments? It's obvious you are here on a singular agenda.

498 Charles  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 10:42:06pm

re: #497 gman

Also, why do you care what brings this blog together when you have only contributed 18 comments? It's obvious you are here on a singular agenda.

It's amazing how many of these people have popped out of the woodwork.

499 Charles  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 10:44:15pm

re: #496 Hanoch

For anyone interested in a more moderate view of the evolution/intelligent design debate I'd recommend Peter Wood's article in National Review Online.

He argues for a "middle ground"

Peter Wood is yet another shill for the creationist viewpoint. His so-called middle ground is the same middle ground as every other creationist -- it entails violating the Establishment Clause and teaching religion as science.

500 nnw59  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 10:45:28pm

Would someone please forward to me the proof of randomness that is central to Darwinian Evolution? I would be most grateful because it seems to me as unscientific as anything in the world of Intelligent Design. How would one go about testing randomness? Would showing design be one way? Others? Or is that act of faith allowable in the science of Darwinian Evolution but no other act of faith is allowable in any countervailing theory.

501 Charles  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 10:47:26pm

There's another one. Registered since February and this is the first comment.

Why do creationists always demand that everyone run around and prove things to them, when they obviously couldn't care less about the answers?

502 gman  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 10:48:57pm

re: #496 Hanoch

For anyone interested in a more moderate view of the evolution/intelligent design debate I'd recommend Peter Wood's article in National Review Online.

He argues for a "middle ground"

Here are the steps to the scientific method

1. Define the question
2. Gather information and resources (observe)
3. Form hypothesis
4. Perform experiment and collect data
5. Analyze data
6. Interpret data and draw conclusions that serve as a starting point for new 7. hypothesis
8. Publish results
9. Retest (frequently done by other scientists)

Let me know how we are going to perform experiments with supernatural phenomena. It's not going to happen. That's what faith is for.

503 gman  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 10:50:14pm

re: #498 Charles

It's amazing how many of these people have popped out of the woodwork.

Tonight is the most by far and it's obvious they are registering for a singular purpose.

504 justadot  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 10:50:27pm

re: #498 Charles

right_wired went a tear earlier on Science: More Transitional Fossils Discovered. Saw it in LGF Spy. What, dozens of -1 ratings? I don't think I'm exaggerating, either.

505 Charles  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 10:54:13pm

re: #504 justadot

right_wired went a tear earlier on Science: More Transitional Fossils Discovered. Saw it in LGF Spy. What, dozens of -1 ratings? I don't think I'm exaggerating, either.

You're not exaggerating. But it's the last time that one will do that.

506 Charles  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 10:55:25pm

re: #503 gman

Tonight is the most by far and it's obvious they are registering for a singular purpose.

It's pretty clear that some kind of word has gone out to spam the living crap out of LGF with this creationist hooey.

507 Hanoch  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 11:00:20pm

re: #499 Charles

I don't know a thing about him other than he is a professor of anthropology. What makes you think he is a "shill for the creationist viewpoint"? He is, by his own words, a proponent of evolution, and not a supporter of Professor Behe "or the movement that he has started."

508 homeinzion  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 11:03:31pm

When you're right, you're right. We are all ill-served by faulty or duplicitous citing of researchers' conclusions -- and we all gain by the sharp monitoring of public pronouncements by experts.

509 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 11:07:43pm

Boss has a tough gig.

510 Hanoch  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 11:21:54pm

re: #499 Charles

One other thing. I am also against teaching religion in public schools. However, I question whether making reference to a creator is teaching religion. Religion is usually used to describe a system of worship, philosophy, set of rituals, etc. One could hold the view that the universe was created by a creator and then left humans and the universe to their own devices. I think it would be a stretch to call that view a religion. It seems to me where a teacher starts getting close to the religious line is where he goes the next step and starts teaching a particular worldview based on the existence of a creator.

511 FinnAgain  Thu, Jun 26, 2008 11:28:11pm

re: #489 Charles

You creationists are really turning in a pathetic whining performance tonight.

You can tell a difference?

Meanwhile, I've been out of the loop on current research since I got out of college. Since grad school and in my professional career, I've really only got time to hunt down and chew on research that deals with pedagogy or cognitive linguistics, and I'm rarely exposed to such a treat as current research into evolutionary mechanics. And, heck, you seem to be driving some folks insane, who, coincidentally enough, sound rather similar to the folks who want to hamstring the American conservative movement and use it to establish a state religion.

Kudos.

re: #500 nnw59

Would someone please forward to me the proof of randomness that is central to Darwinian Evolution? I would be most grateful because it seems to me as unscientific as anything in the world of Intelligent Design. How would one go about testing randomness?

Numerous ways, and to be honest, teaching you would take some time. I've taken entire courses that deal with research methodology and stats, it's a bit much for 3000 characters. Suffice it to say, there is a threshold for statistical significance and several tests that one can subject scientific data to in order to uncover patterns such as the Chi Squared Test.


Or is that act of faith allowable in the science of Darwinian Evolution but no other act of faith is allowable in any countervailing theory.

It's times like that that a limited 'smiley' set would really be useful, as typing :rolleyes: just doesn't cut it.
You evidently haven't studied science or research methodology, okay. But then you go from that ignorance to an ignorance-based attack upon evolution as "faith based?"

That's not just willful ignorance, that's militant ignorance.

re: #489 Charles

re: #446 Vikingstar

I for one would like a direct quote, as especially when dealing with slippery ID advocates like Behe, "Darwinism" is a code word and I'm now not sure what he specifically said as you yourself switched between "neodarwinism" and "Darwinism".

Fair Use would allow you to post a small chunk for elucidative purposes. Otherwise all you've offered is a paraphrse.

re: #486 lightmourn

Oh geez. Charles, really? Michael Behe isn't a creationist (from what I know). Explain how this is pertinent? Why are you also on a crusade to defend evolutionism?

All the posts and comments where he explained it weren't good enough?
And, "evolutionism"? Is that like "germ theoryism" or "gravityism"?
It's funny how language can give folks away so quickly.

re: #488 lightmourn

For what it's worth, I dinged you down because
1. you have obviously ignored everything Charles posted on the subject and are gnawing on his ankles in order to annoy him. Very poor manners when someone is your host in their house. I wish all the ID'ers who've crawled out of the woodwork would at least have the basic manners required to not be a jerk to the guy whose created, runs and maintains this blog.
2. Behe is a self described proponent of ID, which is just marketing slapped onto Creationism. You are either ignorant of that and trying to argue, or aware of it and being dishonest.
3. Your calling defending the Establishment Clause, the scientific method, the strength of science education a "crusade" while calling believing in facts "evolutionism" are all rather unsavory.

But you can believe yourself to be persecuted if you wish.

512 FinnAgain  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 1:32:29am

re: #510 Hanoch

One other thing. I am also against teaching religion in public schools. However, I question whether making reference to a creator is teaching religion. Religion is usually used to describe a system of worship, philosophy, set of rituals, etc. One could hold the view that the universe was created by a creator and then left humans and the universe to their own devices. I think it would be a stretch to call that view a religion.

Nope. Belief in a god is a religion. And, something tells me, if the Creator that they 'simply mentioned' was Allah?
Then again, that might be fun just to watch some people's heads explode.

Not all religions are monotheistic, and having public schools teach monotheism explicitly means our government would be in the business of preaching against numerous religions. This is bad.

513 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 3:30:42am

re: #491 johnny 100 pesos

That is utter B and S. The so-called "cut and paste" was deposition testimony- citing the exact same depositions, so of course it looks like a copy/paste job. Nice try, though.

514 A. van Hilten  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 5:37:43am

re: #506 Charles

It's pretty clear that some kind of word has gone out to spam the living crap out of LGF with this creationist hooey.

Now wouldn't it be swell to let these dishonest pricks who march in lockstep with the Disco freaks have a say in how other people's children should be educated indoctrinated?

Trying to reason with them is like trying to debate a bunch of Holocaust deniers: they keep quoting the same BS (they just quote Michale Behe instead of David Irving) and could care less about the facts.

The Discovery Institute is to creationists what the Institute for Historial Review is to negationists.

515 Vikingstar  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 5:45:33am

#511 Finnagain
It's true; I offered a paraphrase. It's also true that I used both "neo-Darwinism" and "Darwinism" interchangably. Slightly sloppy of me, perhaps, but since even scientists do the same thing, I feel little shame at doing so.
I stand by my critique, however. Behe, while not quoting Coyle with full accuracy, does not say that he has ceased believing in evolution. Coyle is incorrect when he says that Behe does so. I'm not pulling a quote because there is no one statement in Behe's book (chapter 2, pages 26-29) that says it succinctly. But read it yourself, and judge for yourself: is Behe saying that there is a dissatisfaction with Darwinism, and a movement towards "punctuated equilibrium", or is Behe saying that the scientists quoted have given up on evolution entirely? To me, it's clear that it's the former.
One does not have to be a proponent of Id to come to this conclusion, just someone who can read the English language. As I said before, criticism is fine, as long as it's accurate and fair criticism.

516 DixieLou  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 8:09:00am
Can anyone who alters quotations be trusted to give an unbiased view of the scientific data?

Those were my thoughts exactly as I read Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion and noted how he altered quotations by John Adams. That was a totally shameless and fraudulent piece of work.

It is almost as if this is standard practice by those who write on the subject of God vs Darwin. Curious.

517 Yashmak  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 8:30:15am
God's creation has evolved.

Also to point, the God of Christians himself evolves, from a vengeful god in the Old Testament, to a forgiving god in the New Testament.

I recall that when I was younger, my pastor gave a talk on Creationism and ID, after some of the members of the church approached him about pushing for ID in our local school classrooms. He was, himself, a believer in evolutionary theory, but had no problems integrating it with his faith. However, he also agreed that ID isn't proper science, and urged those members of the church who favored its teaching in the science classroom to think twice.

518 Yashmak  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 8:32:13am
It is almost as if this is standard practice by those who write on the subject of God vs Darwin. Curious.

It's not that curious. It's natural. Topics like this cause high levels of emotion in certain people. Under the influence of such high emotion, it's not unexpected to see people make intellectually dishonest arguments in their favor.

519 TalkinKamel  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 8:40:03am

re: #514 A. van Hilten

Marching in lockstep with Disco freaks? Disco? What does Disco have to do with science, Evolution, Creationism, theology, etc., etc., etc. ?

What's Disco got to do with anything? (Except, maybe, silly dances and bad music.)

"Marching in lockstep with Disco Freaks"---great name for a rock band.

520 Charles  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 8:45:22am

Just got email from someone who informed me that they're going to make it their personal mission to "work the phones with supporters" to inform "key conservative sites and radio shows" that LGF and Hot Air are "Jindal hate sites."

521 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 8:46:40am

re: #519 TalkinKamel

FYI- Killgore Trout started calling the discovery institute the "Disco Institute" a while back. I guess it's getting picked up as the mocking moniker.

522 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 8:47:22am

re: #520 Charles

Are you just trembling in your boots?

523 Vikingstar  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 8:52:35am

Equating proponents of ID with Holocaust deniers is a little extreme, isn't it?

524 Vikingstar  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 8:53:55am

Come to think of it, equating Michael Behe with David Irving is a wee bit over the top, too.

525 TalkinKamel  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 8:54:02am

re: #521 Sharmuta

That I did not know. All I know is that the phrase, "Marching in lockstep with Disco freaks!" conjures up images of thousands upon thousands of John Travolta clones, boogeying down the street in thier trademark white suits, as "Saturday Night Fever" plays in the background.

(And it would make a great name for a rock band.)

526 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 8:55:39am

re: #523 Vikingstar

Gee- I think linking evolution to the Holocaust is extreme.

527 Charles  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 8:56:35am

re: #516 DixieLou

Those were my thoughts exactly as I read Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion and noted how he altered quotations by John Adams. That was a totally shameless and fraudulent piece of work.

It is almost as if this is standard practice by those who write on the subject of God vs Darwin. Curious.

More creationist talking points. I'm not a huge fan of Dawkins, but he did not alter any quotes by John Adams.

528 gman  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 9:04:05am

re: #520 Charles

Just got email from someone who informed me that they're going to make it their personal mission to "work the phones with supporters" to inform "key conservative sites and radio shows" that LGF and Hot Air are "Jindal hate sites."

Must be the same "supporters" that flooded this thread last night.
Just a guess, but I think many of them were born into the young earth creationist belief system like myself and have never dared question the information they are being fed. All I can say is it is natural to question things, all the more so for someone born into a religion.

529 Vikingstar  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 9:04:22am

You can make a case (and people other than the much-ridiculed Ben Stein have) that evolutionary theories were misused by eugenicists and others, and that those people in turn influenced Nazism; can you make an equivelent case of similar abuse on the part of proponents of ID?

530 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 9:06:40am

re: #529 Vikingstar

can you make an equivelent case of similar abuse on the part of proponents of ID?

If you read the threads on this topic here at LGF, yes you can.

531 Charles  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 9:11:11am

re: #529 Vikingstar

You can make a case (and people other than the much-ridiculed Ben Stein have) that evolutionary theories were misused by eugenicists and others, and that those people in turn influenced Nazism; can you make an equivelent case of similar abuse on the part of proponents of ID?

Stein goes much farther than this -- he says explicitly that the theory of evolution was a direct cause of the Holocaust. He doesn't simply maintain that it was "misused." He's on video saying, "Science leads to killing people."

532 Salamantis  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 9:13:10am

Darwin is as much to blame for Hitler as Jesus is to blame for the Dominican monks who baptized Native American infants into Christianity, then smashed their skulls against walls so they would not grow up to be heathens and their eternal souls would be saved. That is, not at all.

In fact, most Third Reich Germans were Christian. And many Christians have had the decency to apologize for their part in the Holocaust:

[Link: chi.gospelcom.net...]

533 Vikingstar  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 9:30:24am

Please note that I said "evolutionary theories were misused". I didn't attempt to attack Darwin himself. A lot of people have written on this subject before Stein came on the scene; for example, demonstating the link between Margaret Sanger and Hitler.
As for "reading the threads on LGF' on the subject, I've been doing that for a long time. I've been reading and not posting because I wanted to get a better grasp of the opposing sides, but like with a great many other issues, frequently more heat and smoke than light have been generated. I posted on Behe's book because I had scanned it several years ago, and something didn't sound quite right in what Coyle said. As I've noted both Behe and Coyle have misused contexts--but don't take my word on it, read the relevant parts yourself.

534 Salamantis  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 9:38:49am

So-called 'social darwinists' such as those involved in the eugenics movement were actually the antithesis of evolutionists, as they were rejecting natural selection in favor of imposing their own self-annointed 'intelligent design'.

The more rapid evolution in the human species is memetic, not genetic; the evolution of ideas (the selection of memes rather than genes) occurs in individually experienced time, and does not require generations in order to occur.

535 Charles  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 9:46:52am

re: #533 Vikingstar

I think you made a rather convoluted argument that Coyne took Behe out of context; I don't agree. I find Coyne's explanation much more persuasive than yours.

On the other hand, what Behe did is not a small matter or open to quibbling. He not only took the quote out of context, he changed it by inserting a period, and reversed the meaning to shore up one of the misdirections in his book.

536 Yashmak  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 9:48:21am
So-called 'social darwinists' such as those involved in the eugenics movement were actually the antithesis of evolutionists, as they were rejecting natural selection in favor of imposing their own self-annointed 'intelligent design'.

- Salamantis

Excellent point.

537 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 9:56:10am

re: #534 Salamantis

So-called 'social darwinists' such as those involved in the eugenics movement were actually the antithesis of evolutionists, as they were rejecting natural selection in favor of imposing their own self-annointed 'intelligent design'.

I've been trying to say this, but you were far more eloquent, my friend. Mind if I quote you on this in the future?

538 Salamantis  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 9:59:37am

Here is another interesting paper, demonstrating the self-criticism, consideration and weighing of multiple and differing viewpoints and the evidence for and against them, and open and seeking attitude that is typically present in evolutionary theorists, but just as typically absent in Discovery Institute type 'intelligent design' creationists:

What is a Species, and What is Not?
ERNST MAYR
[Link: www.aaas.org...]

539 Salamantis  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 10:00:52am

re: #537 Sharmuta

No Problemo, Sharmuta...;~)

540 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 10:02:09am

re: #539 Salamantis

Thanks, Sala! Stuck ya in my favorites.

541 Charles  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 10:14:43am

I know we had several people previously trying to water down or apologize for Ben Stein's 'Expelled,' but here are Stein's own words about how he feels on the subject--along with the words of scientists he misquoted in the film: Scientists Feel Miscast in Film on Life’s Origin.

He said he also believed the theory of evolution leads to racism and ultimately genocide, an idea common among creationist thinkers. If it were up to him, he said, the film would be called “From Darwin to Hitler.”

542 Charles  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 10:20:06am

I don't 'ridicule' Ben Stein, by the way -- as I've said several times I used to be a fan. I've linked several of his articles here, and they were great. I think he's a good person, and I don't hate him.

But he's terribly wrong, and 'Expelled' is a Michael Moore film for creationists.

543 Salamantis  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 10:30:19am

re: #542 Charles

I don't 'ridicule' Ben Stein, by the way -- as I've said several times I used to be a fan. I've linked several of his articles here, and they were great. I think he's a good person, and I don't hate him.

But he's terribly wrong, and 'Expelled' is a Michael Moore film for creationists.

I would have to agree: Indoctrinate U it ain't.

[Link: www.indoctrinate-u.com...]

544 twons  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 11:22:35am

I have been lurking for a long time, and have recently started reading into these threads. I registered a while back when there was an open registration chance, but never posted.

I periodically become motivated to participate for awhile in these types of debates. I used to post at Freerepublic.com, until I was banned! as a rabble rouser, for defending the science behind the theory of evolution. I cannot fathom how otherwise thinking people can embrace creationism as fact. I look around at the natural world, and see so many things that are obviously evidence of a very, very old earth, and the evolution of her life forms.

I wanted to thank you, Charles, for continuing to put these threads into the public debate. It is my opinion that the right has slid too far toward the fundamentalist mindset. By allowing creationists, rabid pro-lifers (those who are so single-issue oriented that they ignore all other factors), and other extremists, to gain prominence, we risk alienating the center. It is also my opinion, therefore, that the surest way to ensure continued Democratic political victories and subsequent sliding to the left as national policy is to allow this polarization to continue.

I attended my county Republican political convention this spring. I listened to the keynote speaker tell me that I shouldn't feel ashamed to be a Republican, to be proud of my political convictions. Then I listened to the platform committee's report, and watched them include planks supporting the use of the Bible in schools as a textbook, criminal penalties for abortionists, etc. My thought was "No wonder the left thinks that Republicans are goobers. We say so right in our platform!"

My experience won't be enough to make me vote for Obama, not to worry. But it does give one pause....

As I said, keep up the good work. We need to do all in our power to let the world know that we are rational folks!

545 Yashmak  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 11:44:06am
Then I listened to the platform committee's report, and watched them include planks supporting the use of the Bible in schools as a textbook, criminal penalties for abortionists, etc. "

- twons

Indeed. These same folks like to believe it is the drift towards center that's alienating Republican voters. . .but I'd wager that as much or more loss of support is due to pushing what are basically religious fundamentalist platforms on a voting base with a significant percentage of secular voters.

546 Salamantis  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 11:49:18am

Well, Yashmak, at least pushing religiously fundamentalist platforms on a majority religious but nonfundamentalist voting base.

547 twons  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 12:05:08pm

re: #546 Salamantis

Well, Yashmak, at least pushing religiously fundamentalist platforms on a majority religious but nonfundamentalist voting base.

Or a combination of secular and non-fundamentalist religious. That's my point - that "Big Tent" Republicanism, which allows for differences in some issues, seems to be declining in favor of the polarization.

It's time for a new American Conservative party, one based on self-reliance and responsibility for one's own actions.

548 marjoriemoon  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 12:15:47pm

re: #501 Charles

There's another one. Registered since February and this is the first comment.

Why do creationists always demand that everyone run around and prove things to them, when they obviously couldn't care less about the answers?

Because if they are wrong, then God does not exist and there goes the religion..... but you knew that already didn't ya heh

The Big Bang fits in pretty well with the Torah actually. Each day of creation represents millions of years not a 24 hour day (the short explanation). Actually, I'm surprised by Ben Stein's take on all this. I would venture to say his is an Orthodox view, but #1 I didn't think he was Orthodox (he might be) and #2 I'm not sure that Creationism is an Orthodox view anyway. I never got into this discussion with my religious counterparts.

I also believe in Adam and Eve, not that they were the first people, but the first people to recognize God or God consciousness, elevated souls, the first to converse with God.

I know that Cro-Magnum man existed because I work directly for one or two of their descendants :)

549 Franktalk  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 1:17:36pm

I see a few post here trying to take apart the Republicans because of some connection to the religious right that happens to belong to the party. As with any group there will be people in the group who will not hold onto your personal beliefs. This is so obvious it should go without comment. But what do I run to if I run from the Republican party, do I join the party of atheist and baby killers? That may be a harsh statement and many will disagree with it. It is true nonetheless. Now sticking scissors into the back of a baby's head to make a hole and then sucking out the brains may make some of you sick to your stomach. I hope so. There are some who view this as the ultimate level of choice. Now that makes me sick.

So does ones feelings on evolution also reflect in their choice of moral fabric? I think so. This is why I have on many occasions tried to show how evolution is a weak argument and science in this area is not on firm ground as other areas of science. So why did Behe make an obvious error in the quote? Who knows, it is wrong and the quote is not needed in the book anyway.

The real debate needs to take place around moral fabric and if there are truly universal morals above the majority rule. This is the big elephant in the corner that everyone ignores while we argue over evolution junk.

550 lattice  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 1:55:38pm

At the risk of encouraging another 549 comments, Behe's response to the Coyne assertion of deliberate distortion can be found at [Link: www.arn.org...] In order to effectively argue against him, one should be familiar with his arguments, and those of his opponents.

551 twons  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 2:34:27pm

re: #549 Franktalk

I see a few post here trying to take apart the Republicans because of some connection to the religious right that happens to belong to the party.

I see a Republican party trying to enforce a set of moral opinions on me, which I must adhere to if I am to call myself a Republican. When you place an item in the Party's platform, you imply to the world that anyone who belongs to said party holds those views.


So does ones feelings on evolution also reflect in their choice of moral fabric? I think so.

I think you're full of it. My refusal to discount the overwhelming evidence of my senses in order to adhere to a belief in an ancient folk tale in no way compromises my moral fabric, thank you very much.

552 Yashmak  Fri, Jun 27, 2008 3:39:51pm
So does ones feelings on evolution also reflect in their choice of moral fabric? I think so.

I think not. I have never understood the mindset that only those who adhere to some religion can have a strong moral foundation. It's ludicrous on its face. Strong morals requires only faith that doing the right thing is important, not faith in a higher power.

553 Yorzhik  Sat, Jun 28, 2008 1:05:00am

#535 Charles 6/27/2008 9:46:52 am PDT

re: #533 Vikingstar

I think you made a rather convoluted argument that Coyne took Behe out of context; I don't agree. I find Coyne's explanation much more persuasive than yours.

On the other hand, what Behe did is not a small matter or open to quibbling. He not only took the quote out of context, he changed it by inserting a period, and reversed the meaning to shore up one of the misdirections in his book.

Actually, Behe wasn't the one that inserted the period. Charles should show a little journalistic integrity and at least read Behe's response. Someone posted the link, here it is again - [Link: www.arn.org...]

554 Vikingstar  Sat, Jun 28, 2008 7:10:15am

With respect, Charles, I submit that if you actually read Behe's chapter 2, you wil find that I've paraphrased it accurately. I suspect that Coyne hasn't actually read it, but was told of Behe's poor use of his own quote. You can't read the first few pages of Behe's chapeter 2 and come away with thinking the Behe is saying that Coyne has ceased accepting evolution, in my opinion.

555 DixieLou  Sat, Jun 28, 2008 10:22:46am

re: #527 Charles

More creationist talking points. I'm not a huge fan of Dawkins, but he did not alter any quotes by John Adams.

Creationist talking points, Charles? Is an argument to be totally discredited then, solely on the basis that it is advanced by a "creationist"?

I am not sure whether or not you would consider me a "creationist". I am a Christian who believes that God created the world and all the creatures therein. How He did it, I am not certain.

I read Dawkins' book at the request of an atheist poster on another forum, and debated it with him. Here are a few of my findings.
-------------------

As to the Adams quote in question:

........... Dawkins is dishonest.

On page 43 he quotes John Adams thus, "This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it". That is all he quoted. Here is the quote in full context.

"Twenty times, in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, 'This would be the best of all possible Worlds, if there were no Religion in it,' ! But in this exclamation I should have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly [a minister and a schoolteacher, mentioned earlier in the letter]. Without Religion, this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean Hell." -- letter to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817

The quote taken in context makes all the difference in the world. The quote as edited by Dawkins says something else entirely. In context the quote shows that Adams did value religion, in spite of his frustration with its use by some people. But since Dawkins does not value religion for any reason he deliberately censored this part of Adams' statement. The statement as quoted by Dawkins does not stand alone and can only be properly understood in its full context. If you do not see the dishonesty here, ........ I simply do not know what to say.
-------------------------------
Dawkins totally misrepresented Adams and others of our founding fathers. How you could read his book and fail to discern this is beyond me.

556 Vikingstar  Sat, Jun 28, 2008 10:38:02am

Looking over my previous comment, i cee that i are higly skiled In the arte of profreding. Sigh.

557 Charles  Sat, Jun 28, 2008 11:49:25am

re: #555 DixieLou

I'd agree that the quote was taken out of context. However, you said it was "altered," and it wasn't.

558 Charles  Sat, Jun 28, 2008 11:50:54am

re: #553 Yorzhik

Actually, Behe wasn't the one that inserted the period. Charles should show a little journalistic integrity and at least read Behe's response.

I read it. Respect meter still at zero.

Behe claims his editor did it.

cough


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