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Michael Behe and Crank Science

Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 12:35:16 pm PST

I was actually searching for something related to a Linux programming trick, when I stumbled on this interesting article (from 10 years ago but sadly still relevant) by University of Chicago Professor Jerry Coyne about the deceptive tactics employed by Discovery Institute advocate Michael Behe: Boston Review: Is Darwin in the Details? A Debate - More Crank Science.

Behe’s arguments, like those of Biblical creationists, are heavily larded with quotations from evolutionists, many taken out of context to make it seem that our field is riven with self-doubt. More than anything else, it is this use of selective quotation that shows Behe’s close kinship to his religious predecessors.

I am painfully and personally acquainted with Behe’s penchant for fiddling with quotations. On page 29 of Darwin’s Black Box he writes:

Jerry Coyne, of the Department of Ecology and Evolution at the University of Chicago, arrives at an unanticipated verdict: “We conclude—unexpectedly—that there is little evidence for the neo-Darwinian view: its theoretical foundations and the experimental evidence supporting it are weak.”
Apparently I am one of those faint-hearted biologists who see the errors of Darwinism but cannot admit it. This was news to me. I am surely numbered among the more orthodox evolutionists, and hardly see our field as fatally flawed. The paper in question (actually by Allen Orr and myself) addresses a technical debate among evolutionists: are adaptations based on a lot of small genetic mutations (the traditional neo-Darwinian view), a few big mutations, or some mixture of the two? We concluded that although there was not much evidence one way or the other, there were indications that mutations of large effect might occasionally be important. Our paper cast no doubt whatever on the existence of evolution or the ability of natural selection to explain adaptations.

I went back to see exactly what Orr and I had written. It turns out that, in the middle of our sentence, Behe found a period that wasn’t there. Here’s the full citation, placed in its context:

Although a few biologists have suggested an evolutionary role for mutations or large effect (Gould 1980; Maynard Smith 1983: Gottlieb, 1984; Turner, 1985), the neo-Darwinian view has largely triumphed, and the genetic basis of adaptation now receives little attention. Indeed, the question is considered so dead that few may know the evidence responsible for its demise.

Here we review this evidence. We conclude—unexpectedly—that there is little evidence for the neo-Darwinian view: its theoretical foundations and the experimental evidence supporting it are weak, and there is no doubt that mutations of large effect are sometimes important in adaptation.

We hasten to add, however, that we are not “macromutationists” who believe that adaptations are nearly always based on major genes. The neo-Darwinian view could well be correct. It is almost certainly true, however, that some adaptations involve many genes of small effect and others involve major genes. The question we address is, How often does adaptation involve a major gene? We hope to encourage evolutionists to reexamine this neglected question and to provide the evidence to settle it.

By inserting the period (and removing the sentence from its neighbors), Behe has twisted our meaning. Our discussion of one aspect of Darwinism—the relative size of adaptive mutations—has suddenly become a critique of the entire Darwinian enterprise. This is not sloppy scholarship, but deliberate distortion.

Perhaps I unduly belabor this point, but we know what they say about God and the details. Can anyone who alters quotations be trusted to give an unbiased view of the scientific data?

558 comments

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1 Occasional Reader  6/26/08 12:38:39 pm reply quote 4

ID = Intelligent Dowdification

2 Bubblehead II  6/26/08 12:38:55 pm reply quote 1

Heh, stirring the waters again Charles?.

I don't think anyone wants to touch this as I have modified this post 4 times already.

3 Killgore Trout  6/26/08 12:40:31 pm reply quote -1

An interactive map of the Disco Institute......

Theocracy Now!


Focus on Intelligent Design -- both the billionaire bankrollers and their scientist shills.
4 Ben Hur  6/26/08 12:40:33 pm reply quote -1

How 'bout a Ciao Darwin thread?

5 Honorary Yooper  6/26/08 12:41:04 pm reply quote 5

It's a classic case of quote mining. It never ceases to amaze me how much these folks (YECs and IDers) have in common with liberals.

6 godfrey  6/26/08 12:41:32 pm reply quote 0

Yep, this is a clear distortion and sloppy scholarship.

7 HugoChavez  6/26/08 12:41:35 pm reply quote -1

Te Hell with scientific research. Kill all the Zionists, Capitalists and other Fascist pigs today.

We can talk Science tomorrow.

8 godfrey  6/26/08 12:42:22 pm reply quote 0

re: #7 HugoChavez

We can talk Science tomorrow.

At gunpoint. Eh, Hugo?

9 Killgore Trout  6/26/08 12:43:06 pm reply quote 7
This is not sloppy scholarship, but deliberate distortion.

Just like the butchered Darwin quote used in Expelled. Darwin was speaking out against eugenics but Ben inverted the meaning. It's dishonest, aren't they claiming to be morally superior?

10 HugoChavez  6/26/08 12:43:57 pm reply quote 0

re: #8 godfrey

At gunpoint. Eh, Hugo?

But only the RIGHT people will be alive then, so no need for guns, correcto my Zionist friend?

11 debutaunt  6/26/08 12:44:29 pm reply quote 0

re: #8 godfrey

At gunpoint. Eh, Hugo?

Thugo has some attitude.

13 godfrey  6/26/08 12:46:30 pm reply quote 0

re: #10 HugoChavez

No need for Science in Yourtopia either, Herr Hugo!

14 vxbush  6/26/08 12:46:32 pm reply quote 0

re: #9 Killgore Trout

Just like the butchered Darwin quote used in Expelled. Darwin was speaking out against eugenics but Ben inverted the meaning. It's dishonest, aren't they claiming to be morally superior?

Totally separate from Expelled, but I was under the impression that the first edition of Darwin's book included support for the ascent of "white man" over "black man." Or something similar.

Am I mistaken? I thought later editions of the book got rid of these chapters.

15 Ben Hur  6/26/08 12:46:36 pm reply quote 0

re: #5 Honorary Yooper

It's a classic case of quote mining. It never ceases to amaze me how much these folks (YECs and IDers) have in common with liberals.

Panda thumb?

16 wrenchwench  6/26/08 12:46:38 pm reply quote 6

Oddly enough, I posted a comment on "intelligent design" before it was fashionable, back in 2007, and it had to do with periods too. Since then, I have managed to stay quiet on the subject, aside from a few "dings."

17 Occasional Reader  6/26/08 12:47:08 pm reply quote 2

re: #7 HugoChavez

T[o] Hell with scientific research.

You don't really mean that, Hugo. Without science, how will you build the future Miss Venezuelas?

18 godfrey  6/26/08 12:47:18 pm reply quote 0

Is Maureen Dowd still single?

19 DavidM01  6/26/08 12:47:26 pm reply quote -7

This seems pretty dishonest from Behe, but the life-from-random-nothingness crowd has a lot of theories with little proof to explain the origins of life.

Go find some abiogenesis evidence and then I will listen to the time+soup = life arguments. Until then its adherents use just as much faith as people who believe in a Creator or outside force.

20 godfrey  6/26/08 12:48:00 pm reply quote 0

re: #17 Occasional Reader

Um, let's just derive them all from her, if you, um, don't mind.

21 XMarine  6/26/08 12:48:06 pm reply quote 7

These creationists, who claim to be so holy and heavenly, are really some of the most dishonest and devious people one may have the misfortune to encounter. Their dishonesty and hypocrisy reminds me a bit of the more fanatical followers of the ROP who claim to be sitting at the right hand of the Creator, though the creationists are not in the habit of murdering children ...

Actually creationists are the best friends of the enemies of the Free World given their attempts to undermine the education of our children.

22 rawmuse  6/26/08 12:48:16 pm reply quote 0

re: #17 Occasional Reader

dayummmm

23 BignJames  6/26/08 12:48:40 pm reply quote 1

re: #16 wrenchwench

There will probably be "mass dingings" later.

24 godfrey  6/26/08 12:48:43 pm reply quote 1

re: #19 DavidM01

To get life from soup, all you need to do is leave it on the counter for a few weeks.

25 WhiteRasta  6/26/08 12:48:58 pm reply quote 0

re: #17 Occasional Reader

Oh Lord have mercy! What a beauty!

26 sngnsgt  6/26/08 12:49:15 pm reply quote 0

"I was for the gun ban before I was against it."

27 Ben Hur  6/26/08 12:49:20 pm reply quote 0

re: #22 rawmuse

I swear I was just gonna type the EXACT thing in the EXACT way.

28 Occasional Reader  6/26/08 12:49:48 pm reply quote 4

re: #16 wrenchwench

Oddly enough, I posted a comment on "intelligent design" before it was fashionable, back in 2007, and it had to do with periods too. Since then, I have managed to stay quiet on the subject, aside from a few "dings."

It is indeed a rather puzzling design choice. Kind of like, for us men, why certain parts of us that are utterly necessary for the propagation of the species are delicately suspended and altogether too vulnerable!

29 Ben Hur  6/26/08 12:49:59 pm reply quote 0

re: #27 Ben Hur

I swear I was just gonna type the EXACT thing in the EXACT way.


Maybe one or two less "Ms" just in case the Big Guy calls in on oaths today.

30 Occasional Reader  6/26/08 12:50:21 pm reply quote 0

re: #20 godfrey

Um, let's just derive them all from her, if you, um, don't mind.

Agreed. We can even use the brain from Abbie Normal, I don't care.

31 chupa  6/26/08 12:50:22 pm reply quote 3

Charles,

It's refreshing to see so much evolution on your site. You should really check out Panda's Thumb if you haven't seen it before.

[Link: www.pandasthumb.org...]

The science talk there is incredible, and many well known scientists post frequently in the comment sections. It's a great place to learn about the most exciting advances in evolution as well as explicit rebuttals of all the ID tripe that gets thrown out. The verbal beatdowns of IDiots in the comment sections are almost always priceless.

32 vxbush  6/26/08 12:50:26 pm reply quote 0

re: #14 vxbush

Totally separate from Expelled, but I was under the impression that the first edition of Darwin's book included support for the ascent of "white man" over "black man." Or something similar.

Am I mistaken? I thought later editions of the book got rid of these chapters.

Ah--it was his second book, The Descent of Man, that I'm thinking of. Wikipedia doesn't support my poor memory on this.

I retract my statement.

33 Glackinspeil  6/26/08 12:50:48 pm reply quote 0

I think I'm so sophisticated, 'cause I'm living my life like a good homo sapiens
But all around me everybody's multiplying, and they're walking round like flies, man
So I'm no better than the animals sitting in the cages in the zoo, man
'cause compared to the flowers and the birds and the trees -- I am an apeman

I think I'm so educated and I'm so civilized 'cause I'm a strict vegetarian
And with the over population, and inflation and starvation, and the crazy politicians
I don't feel safe in this world no more, I don't want to die in a nuclear war
I want to sail away to a distant shore, and make like an apeman

I'm an apeman
I'm an ape, apeman
Oh, I'm an apeman

I'm a king-kong man
I'm a voodoo man
Oh, I'm an apeman

'cause compared to the sun that sits in the sky
Compared to the clouds as they roll by
Compared to the bugs and the spiders and flies
I am an apeman.

La la la la...

In man's evolution he's created the city and the motor traffic rumble
But give me half a chance and I'd be taking off my clothes and living in the jungle
'cause the only time that I feel at ease is swinging up and down in a coconut tree
Oh what a life of luxury -- to be like an apeman

I'm an apeman
I'm an ape, apeman
Oh, I'm an apeman

I'm a king-kong man
I'm a voodoo man
Oh, I'm an apeman

I look out the window, but I can't see the sky
The air pollution is a-fogging up my eyes
I want to get out of this city alive
And make like an apeman

La la la la...

Come on and love me -
Be my apeman girl
And we'd be so happy -
In my apeman world

I'm an apeman
I'm an ape, apeman
Oh, I'm an apeman

I'm a king-kong man
I'm a voodoo man
Oh, I'm an apeman

I'll be your Tarzan and you'll be my Jane
I'll keep you warm and you'll keep me sane
We'll sit in the trees and eat bananas all day
Just like an apeman

I'm an apeman
I'm an ape, apeman
Oh, I'm an apeman

I'm a king-kong man
I'm a voodoo man
Oh, I'm an apeman

I don't feel safe in this world no more, I don't want to die in a nuclear war
I want to sail away to a distant shore, and make like an apeman

34 Occasional Reader  6/26/08 12:51:22 pm reply quote 0

re: #22 rawmuse

dayummmm

The finest Dow Corning products money can buy!

SCIENCE!

35 NJDhockeyfan  6/26/08 12:51:40 pm reply quote 1
36 Ben Hur  6/26/08 12:51:41 pm reply quote 0

re: #31 chupa


I noticed "pandas thumb" a little higher up in the thread.

What's the deal?

Is someone questioning why panda's have thumbs?

37 akak  6/26/08 12:52:03 pm reply quote 0

Would all Christian converts report to the office please, follow the signs.
As always this message from management is mandatory.

38 godfrey  6/26/08 12:52:05 pm reply quote 0

By the way, it should be needless to say that isolating this single example of selective quotation and distortion from Behe's work is also probably a distortion. Are you all going to judge all of his work on the basis of this single example? Surely not.

That said, he's being called out and should address it.

39 Occasional Reader  6/26/08 12:52:19 pm reply quote 1

re: #25 WhiteRasta

Oh Lord have mercy! What a beauty!

All in favor of liberating Venezuela, raise your hands.

(Hey, I said HANDS.)

40 Glackinspeil  6/26/08 12:52:23 pm reply quote -1

Im a fleabit peanut monkey
All my friends are junkies
Thats not really true

Im a cold italian pizza
I could use a lemon squeezer
What you do?

But Ive been bit and Ive been tossed around
By every she-rat in this town
Have you, babe?

Well, I am just a monkey man
Im glad you are a monkey woman too

I was bitten by a boar
I was gouged and I was gored
But I pulled on through

Yes, Im a sack of broken eggs
I always have an unmade bed
Dont you?

Well, I hope were not too messianic
Or a trifle too satanic
We love to play the blues

Well I am just a monkey man
Im glad you are a monkey, monkey woman too, babe

Im a monkey
Im a monkey
Im a monkey man
Im a monkey man
Im a monkey...

41 Peacekeeper  6/26/08 12:53:00 pm reply quote 0

I have yet to see it in writing but I heard that Spain has given civil rights to apes... kinda ridiculous no?

42 Killgore Trout  6/26/08 12:53:48 pm reply quote 7

re: #14 vxbush


Totally separate from Expelled, but I was under the impression that the first edition of Darwin's book included support for the ascent of "white man" over "black man." Or something similar.


I have no doubt that certain people have made that claim to back up their dishonest agenda but I serious doubt it's true. Darwin on race and slavery

He was very outspoken on the issue.

43 opnion  6/26/08 12:54:12 pm reply quote 0

re: #18 godfrey

Is Maureen Dowd still single?


No victim yet.

44 vxbush  6/26/08 12:54:25 pm reply quote 0

re: #38 godfrey

By the way, it should be needless to say that isolating this single example of selective quotation and distortion from Behe's work is also probably a distortion. Are you all going to judge all of his work on the basis of this single example? Surely not.

That said, he's being called out and should address it.

I know that some of the Christians who write on this stuff are good of heart but simply haven't been taught the proper way to cite authors and the simple fact of checking and rechecking quotes. It's basic to scientific writing, but unfortunately some folks don't understand how important it is to be completely up front, honest, and triple-fact-checked in their work.

45 buzzsawmonkey  6/26/08 12:54:39 pm reply quote 1

re: #41 Peacekeeper

I have yet to see it in writing but I heard that Spain has given civil rights to apes... kinda ridiculous no?

I don't know; Koslings can vote.

46 godfrey  6/26/08 12:54:51 pm reply quote 0

re: #39 Occasional Reader

They have nothing to lose but their sujetadors!

47 Peacekeeper  6/26/08 12:55:03 pm reply quote 4

Why must we say God is here and science is over here? Because we are all a bunch of dumb f*cks, that's why.

48 Charles  6/26/08 12:55:28 pm reply quote 8

re: #38 godfrey

By the way, it should be needless to say that isolating this single example of selective quotation and distortion from Behe's work is also probably a distortion. Are you all going to judge all of his work on the basis of this single example? Surely not.

That said, he's being called out and should address it.

It's a pretty well-documented creationist tactic, and this is far from the only example of it. There's actually a project to keep track of all the distortions:

[Link: www.talkorigins.org...]

49 Peacekeeper  6/26/08 12:55:54 pm reply quote 0

re: #45 buzzsawmonkey

I don't know; Koslings can vote.

I'd rather be governed by monkeys. Dr Zaius! Dr, Zaius!

50 vxbush  6/26/08 12:56:03 pm reply quote -1

re: #42 Killgore Trout

I have no doubt that certain people have made that claim to back up their dishonest agenda but I serious doubt it's true. Darwin on race and slavery

He was very outspoken on the issue.

I retracted earlier, although I would like to have a chance to read a first edition, just out of curiosity.

51 coquimbojoe  6/26/08 12:56:14 pm reply quote 0

re: #28 Occasional Reader

It is indeed a rather puzzling design choice. Kind of like, for us men, why certain parts of us that are utterly necessary for the propagation of the species are delicately suspended and altogether too vulnerable!

I know I keep stepping on mine.....

52 Ben Hur  6/26/08 12:56:20 pm reply quote 0

Goal!

Spain 1-Russia 0

53 Peacekeeper  6/26/08 12:56:48 pm reply quote 1

I believe in God and evolution, that pretty much leaves me with no friends.

54 godfrey  6/26/08 12:56:54 pm reply quote -1

re: #48 Charles

Glad to hear it. Shame on them.

55 Killgore Trout  6/26/08 12:56:56 pm reply quote 0

re: #35 NJDhockeyfan

Heh.

56 rawmuse  6/26/08 12:57:13 pm reply quote 2

re: #21 XMarine

Not all creationists are evil, some are just not very inquisitive. I have some relations who are all creationists (I am maybe the only one who is not) and they simply stopped learning about things. Case closed, in their opinion. They have busy lives, doing lots of good things that you would all approve. This topic is simply not foremost in their lives.

57 debutaunt  6/26/08 12:57:16 pm reply quote 1

re: #36 Ben Hur

I noticed "pandas thumb" a little higher up in the thread.

What's the deal?

Is someone questioning why panda's have thumbs?

I go right past hitchhikers.

58 Occasional Reader  6/26/08 12:57:20 pm reply quote 0

re: #41 Peacekeeper

I have yet to see it in writing but I heard that Spain has given civil rights to apes... kinda ridiculous no?

Un planeta donde las monos se evolucionaron de los hombres?! Es un manicomio... UN MANICOMIO!

59 jcm  6/26/08 12:57:48 pm reply quote 0

re: #51 coquimbojoe

I know I keep stepping on mine.....

With golf shoes.....

60 opnion  6/26/08 12:57:48 pm reply quote 0

re: #53 Peacekeeper

I believe in God and evolution, that pretty much leaves me with no friends.


That is a rational conclusion.

61 Peacekeeper  6/26/08 12:57:58 pm reply quote 0

You can draw a direct line from Darwin to Spanish Ape-men. Direct I tells ya!

62 godfrey  6/26/08 12:58:07 pm reply quote 0

re: #48 Charles

I wonder how often Behe does it, though. Good research project for history of science and philosophy of science types.

63 vxbush  6/26/08 12:58:13 pm reply quote 0

re: #58 Occasional Reader

Un planeta donde las monos se evolucionaron de los hombres?! Es un manicomio... UN MANICOMIO!

You know, you're going to need to have surgery for that speech impediment.

/

64 Glackinspeil  6/26/08 12:58:13 pm reply quote 0

You infidels are wasting your time studeeing sience. Allah can change the past present and futore whenever he want an all yoor sience is big waste of time

65 Bubblehead II  6/26/08 12:58:26 pm reply quote 1

re: #45 buzzsawmonkey

Is this what you are thinking of?

Socialist Gov’t in Spain to Grant Great Apes “Human Rights”

Amnesty International is shocked that the governing socialists in Spain have put forward legislation to grant great apes ‘human rights’. The same government which stripped from unborn human children the right to life and permits destructive research on human embryos, has put forward legislation to grant great apes the rights the rights to life, freedom and to not being tortured, according to a report by Deutsche Presse-Agentur

66 Peacekeeper  6/26/08 12:58:37 pm reply quote 0

re: #58 Occasional Reader

Un planeta donde las monos se evolucionaron de los hombres?! Es un manicomio... UN MANICOMIO!

MarioCoumo? Ay!

67 Ben Hur  6/26/08 12:58:50 pm reply quote 0

re: #42 Killgore Trout


I'm sure his shirt was still made out of Southern Cotton.

68 Russkilitlover  6/26/08 12:59:09 pm reply quote 0

re: #17 Occasional Reader

Well, what do you know? I have a doppleganger!

69 Peacekeeper  6/26/08 12:59:34 pm reply quote 0

re: #58 Occasional Reader

Un planeta donde las monos se evolucionaron de los hombres?! Es un manicomio... UN MANICOMIO!

You just liked watching them hose Charleton down.

70 Occasional Reader  6/26/08 12:59:40 pm reply quote 1

re: #53 Peacekeeper

I believe in God and evolution, that pretty much leaves me with no friends.

It's not because of that.

71 opnion  6/26/08 1:00:10 pm reply quote 0

re: #64 Glackinspeil

You infidels are wasting your time studeeing sience. Allah can change the past present and futore whenever he want an all yoor sience is big waste of time


Behead those who be going for cyanace! inshallah!

72 godfrey  6/26/08 1:00:31 pm reply quote 0

re: #65 Bubblehead II

The legislation would prohibit the 'enslaving' of gorillas, chimpanzees, orangutans and bonobos.

There goes my low-cost staffing plans. Curses, you Spanish pansies!

73 bosforus  6/26/08 1:00:43 pm reply quote 0

re: #52 Ben Hur

Goal!

Spain 1-Russia 0

YES!

74 Ben Hur  6/26/08 1:00:50 pm reply quote 0

My thumbs, Charlie!

They took my thumbs!

75 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  6/26/08 1:00:58 pm reply quote 0

re: #53 Peacekeeper

I believe in God and evolution, that pretty much leaves me with no friends.

I'm in the same boat there with you PK

76 Cygnus  6/26/08 1:01:17 pm reply quote 0

Here we go again. I'm outta here. See y'all tomorrow.

77 opnion  6/26/08 1:02:00 pm reply quote 3

re: #76 Cygnus

Here we go again. I'm outta here. See y'all tomorrow.


Get back here! Nobody leaves this room!

78 Occasional Reader  6/26/08 1:02:10 pm reply quote 0

re: #74 Ben Hur

My thumbs, Charlie!

They took my thumbs!

Rings a bell... source?

79 bosforus  6/26/08 1:02:29 pm reply quote 1

re: #53 Peacekeeper

I believe in God and evolution, that pretty much leaves me with no friends.

Awww, not true.

80 Ben Hur  6/26/08 1:02:35 pm reply quote 0

re: #78 Occasional Reader

Rings a bell... source?


The Pope of Greenwich Village.

With the talented Roberts.

81 Dianna  6/26/08 1:02:51 pm reply quote 0

re: #48 Charles

Good cite - that's a very fine and well maintained collection.

82 buzzsawmonkey  6/26/08 1:03:02 pm reply quote 4

re: #65 Bubblehead II

Is this what you are thinking of?

Socialist Gov’t in Spain to Grant Great Apes “Human Rights”

Amnesty International is shocked that the governing socialists in Spain have put forward legislation to grant great apes ‘human rights’. The same government which stripped from unborn human children the right to life and permits destructive research on human embryos, has put forward legislation to grant great apes the rights the rights to life, freedom and to not being tortured, according to a report by Deutsche Presse-Agentur

I didn't raise the issue at first. I will, however, note that the move to grant "human rights" to non-humans is yet another indicator--if any were needed--that "human rights" are a completely false construct.

There is individual liberty, safeguarded by protecting civil rights, or there is not. Individual liberty is the province of humans only. "Human rights" are a government-granted form of group rights, and as such are utterly antithetical to the concept of human liberty.

83 Ben Hur  6/26/08 1:03:08 pm reply quote 0

I still want to know what's up with panda's having thumbs.

84 J.S.  6/26/08 1:03:09 pm reply quote 4

There are actual (true) flashpoints (unresolved, debates) issues with respect to the theory of evolution. It's found in the academic literature. But these areas of debate are not at all related to what the pseudo-scientists purport are the "flashpoints." The pseudo-scientists' objectives are pretty transparent...(that is, their objective appears to be to destroy all of evolutionary theory -- to get rid of it -- and replace it with supernaturalism.)

85 Occasional Reader  6/26/08 1:03:32 pm reply quote 0

re: #69 Peacekeeper

You just liked watching them hose Charleton down.

If he had snarled "get your filthy hose off me, you damn dirty ape!", the flick would have gotten an X rating.

86 debutaunt  6/26/08 1:03:33 pm reply quote 0

re: #77 opnion

Get back here! Nobody leaves this room!

Get in line for a thumb count.

87 Dianna  6/26/08 1:03:36 pm reply quote 0

re: #50 vxbush

Try Half Price Books. I've picked up some remarkable stuff there.

88 godfrey  6/26/08 1:04:06 pm reply quote 1

re: #65 Bubblehead II

It seems unwise to monkey around with rights like that. Without cheap ape labor, how will the Spanish deal with their plummeting human birth rates?

89 Occasional Reader  6/26/08 1:04:31 pm reply quote 1

re: #83 Ben Hur

I still want to know what's up with panda's having thumbs.

Obviously, they haven't pissed off the Mob. (Yet.)

90 Dianna  6/26/08 1:04:42 pm reply quote 1

re: #53 Peacekeeper

I believe in God and evolution, that pretty much leaves me with no friends.

I'm your friend, even if you will insist on teasing me unmercifully.

91 godfrey  6/26/08 1:05:29 pm reply quote 0

re: #82 buzzsawmonkey

We have no rights derived from our human nature?

92 lizardbennet  6/26/08 1:05:59 pm reply quote 0

Hey! I just sprouted a tail!

Wait...

no, never mind......

93 formercorpsman  6/26/08 1:06:09 pm reply quote 0

re: #82 buzzsawmonkey

I don't even get surpirsed anymore.

Now how do you defend an ape on the stand?

94 keithgabryelski  6/26/08 1:06:19 pm reply quote 4

there are some decent youtube channels on these common tricks.

The most snide being:
Why do people laugh at creationists?
[Link: www.youtube.com...]
A 23 part series -- you don't need to watch them in order,
but they are all worthy.

and for straight-forward information packing goodness:
Foundational Falsehoods of Creationism series.
[Link: www.youtube.com...]
This one is better seen from first to last and there are
links to commentary on his website that expands on the
information given.

95 godfrey  6/26/08 1:07:08 pm reply quote 1

re: #93 formercorpsman

Now how do you defend an ape on the stand?

First, the world has to go bananas.

96 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  6/26/08 1:07:10 pm reply quote 0

re: #28 Occasional Reader

It is indeed a rather puzzling design choice. Kind of like, for us
men, why certain parts of us that are utterly necessary for the
propagation of the species are delicately suspended and altogether too vulnerable!


That's God's way of evening the playing field for women, who are on average, not as strong as men.
/I said on average, ladies - please don't kill me.

97 Bubblehead II  6/26/08 1:07:11 pm reply quote 0

From the WTF category.

DMV Offers 10,000 Replacement License Plates
re: #82 buzzsawmonkey

Right you are. It was PK who originally asked the question. I also agree with the rest of your response as well.

98 debutaunt  6/26/08 1:07:24 pm reply quote 0

re: #93 formercorpsman

I don't even get surprised anymore.

Now how do you defend an ape on the stand?

I'd say 'diminished' frequently.

99 Glackinspeil  6/26/08 1:07:35 pm reply quote 1

There is proof that the white man did not evolve. Was genetically bred "sixty-six hundred years ago" by an evil, big headed scientist named Mr. Yacub. Mr. Yacub, a muslim, started his careed in Mecca, but carried out his evil experiments on the island of Patos. This is where the white deviil comes from.
Source
Malcolm X and Alex Haley, Autobiography of Malcolm X, NY,NY: Ballantine, 1964, p168.

100 jcm  6/26/08 1:08:21 pm reply quote 0

re: #75 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I'm in the same boat there with you PK

Me three.....

101 nikis-knight  6/26/08 1:08:25 pm reply quote 1

I thought Behe's latest book was pretty good in parts, although I didn't really study it or even get a chance to finish it.
Anyone else read it, and have comments on the bits about malaria?

102 bosforus  6/26/08 1:08:29 pm reply quote 0

re: #93 formercorpsman

I don't even get surpirsed anymore.

Now how do you defend an ape on the stand?

You get half way through your defense then break down and rock back and forth in the fetal position repeating "I did not go to law school to defend an ape. I did not go to law school to defend an ape."

103 Spenser (with an S)  6/26/08 1:08:33 pm reply quote 2

re: #75 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

re: #53 Peacekeeper

I believe in God and evolution, that pretty much leaves me with no friends.

I'm in the same boat there with you PK

Count one more here. Plus the guy I spoke with at breakfast who's a Phd in Physics from MIT who is a strong believer while of course believing in a very old earth and evolution.

104 debutaunt  6/26/08 1:08:36 pm reply quote 0

re: #99 Glackinspeil

There is proof that the white man did not evolve. Was genetically bred "sixty-six hundred years ago" by an evil, big headed scientist named Mr. Yacub. Mr. Yacub, a muslim, started his careed in Mecca, but carried out his evil experiments on the island of Patos. This is where the white deviil comes from.
Source
Malcolm X and Alex Haley, Autobiography of Malcolm X, NY,NY: Ballantine, 1964, p168.

Malcom was a big old kidder.

105 opnion  6/26/08 1:08:45 pm reply quote 0

re: #93 formercorpsman

I don't even get surpirsed anymore.

Now how do you defend an ape on the stand?

I think that apes can be rather dictatorial. They like Banana Republics.
sorry

106 Bubblehead II  6/26/08 1:08:50 pm reply quote 0

re: #88 godfrey

I am sure the followers of the RoP will remidy that solution.

107 Occasional Reader  6/26/08 1:09:08 pm reply quote 1

re: #93 formercorpsman

I don't even get surpirsed anymore.

Now how do you defend an ape on the stand?

Law & Order: Simian Defense Unit

108 Honorary Yooper  6/26/08 1:09:15 pm reply quote 0

re: #97 Bubblehead II

From the WTF category.

DMV Offers 10,000 Replacement License Plates

Now there's some intelligent design. :-P

/If I had plates like that, I'd consider just keeping them for the hell of it.

109 Peacekeeper  6/26/08 1:10:33 pm reply quote 0

The thing with Planet of the Apes was you had a man, an astronaut, the very pinnacle of civilization subjected to humiliation by a bunch of religious fanatic apes. In the end he thinks he has freed himself and humiliated the apes only to be confronted with the truth that his great civilization is extinct.

110 Ben Hur  6/26/08 1:10:46 pm reply quote 0

re: #107 Occasional Reader

You know, you're a funny guy!

111 Russkilitlover  6/26/08 1:11:03 pm reply quote 0

re: #108 Honorary Yooper

Now there's some intelligent design. :-P

/If I had plates like that, I'd consider just keeping them for the hell of it.

LOL! North Carolina: First in Flight, last to catch on to modern vernacular!

112 Occasional Reader  6/26/08 1:12:03 pm reply quote 0

re: #93 formercorpsman


Now how do you defend an ape on the stand?

There's been some preliminary work done in that field.

(couldn't find a transcript of this hilarious Flip Wilson routine, sorry)

113 godfrey  6/26/08 1:12:11 pm reply quote 0

re: #109 Peacekeeper

Extinct? Then what does he do? Hook up with some hominid hottie and breed a better bonobo?

114 J.S.  6/26/08 1:12:28 pm reply quote 3

re: #14 vxbush

The concept of "race" was used throughout the nineteenth century -- long before Darwin came on the scene. There's a interesting article written about Darwin's contributions to modernity...link here. Darwin did more to abolish the underpinnings of typical racist ideology (that's based on "typology" and invariance)...please read the article, I think you'll find it's well worth your while.

115 Peacekeeper  6/26/08 1:12:34 pm reply quote 0

re: #103 Spenser (with an S)

Count one more here. Plus the guy I spoke with at breakfast who's a Phd in Physics from MIT who is a strong believer while of course believing in a very old earth and evolution.

So on these threads I never know whether to cheer Charles on or tell him he's fulla sh*t.

116 Ben Hur  6/26/08 1:12:44 pm reply quote 1

I saw a Virginia plate yesterday I think for the first time.

It's motto says: Fight Terrorism.

I was so shocked I stopped, went around back to double check the other plate.