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Creationist Bill Signed by Jindal

Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 12:08:53 pm PDT

Louisiana governor Bobby Jindal has signed a stealth creationist bill into law, and American educational standards take a huge step backward: Science law could set tone for Jindal.

The creationist front group called the Discovery Institute is quietly crowing, and maintaining the fiction that the bill is not religiously-based.

At the Discovery Institute, a Seattle-based think tank that promotes intelligent design and backed the new education act, senior fellow John West said he and his colleagues did not directly lobby Jindal. The group did notify its supporters that groups such as the ACLU and the science organizations were pushing for a veto.

West said critics misunderstand the bill, which he said is not about creationism or intelligent design. Rather, he said, it’s about clarifying that teachers are free to expose their students to the debates that Darwinian scientists have among themselves.

Instead, too many public school students get a “watered-down” discussion of evolutionary theory or nothing at all from teachers, and administrators are too concerned with not angering parents.

“This bill is not a license to propagandize against something they don’t like in science,” West said. “Someone who uses materials to inject religion into the classroom is not only violating the Constitution, they are violating the bill.”

For some reason, though, religious advocacy groups seemed to receive a very different message.

The bill enjoyed support from the Louisiana Family Forum, a group that is upfront in its push for more religious expressions in the public sphere.

1423 comments

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1 Lizard by the Bay  6/27/08 12:09:27 pm reply quote

No VP slot for you.

2 debutaunt  6/27/08 12:10:15 pm reply quote

We know what could go wrong.

3 pegcity  6/27/08 12:11:25 pm reply quote

i thought America was done with this nonsense

4 Salem  6/27/08 12:11:56 pm reply quote

POS

5 The Shadow Do  6/27/08 12:12:03 pm reply quote

Republican. The stupid party.

6 Salamantis  6/27/08 12:12:15 pm reply quote

When the camel's nose gets into the tent, usually the rest of the camel follows.

7 HelloDare  6/27/08 12:12:22 pm reply quote

This is depressing.

8 zombie  6/27/08 12:12:49 pm reply quote

I don't know much about Bobby Jindal -- only read VP speculation here -- but it seems to me he just squandered whatever national political capital he might have had.

Oh well.

Next.

9 Killgore Trout  6/27/08 12:13:27 pm reply quote

He's going to double the salary of the legislature and incur needless legal fees for the inevitable lawsuit on the creationist bill. He's a dud.

10 bj1126  6/27/08 12:13:33 pm reply quote

I don't see what the big deal is. /shrug

Lots worse problems with our education system than potentially teaching ID.

11 Lizard by the Bay  6/27/08 12:14:46 pm reply quote

re: #10 bj1126

I don't see what the big deal is. /shrug

Lots worse problems with our education system than potentially teaching ID.

Does that mean it's okay to make it worse?

12 zombie  6/27/08 12:14:52 pm reply quote

If Louisiana wants to continue their downward spiral into third-world status, than I guess that's their choice.

13 Salamantis  6/27/08 12:15:52 pm reply quote

Yeah, right, shure; since we have other educational problems in our schools, why should we be concerned about bastardizing our science education with religious dogma?

14 NJDhockeyfan  6/27/08 12:16:03 pm reply quote

Yesterday he signed the “The Sex Offender Chemical Castration Bill."

15 zombie  6/27/08 12:16:10 pm reply quote

re: #10 bj1126

I don't see what the big deal is. /shrug

Lots worse problems with our education system than potentially teaching ID.

No, actually, I'd place it in the top three problems.

ID opens the door to political influence of heretofore impartial science instruction. It' s very dangerous road.

16 Pigtown Water Dog  6/27/08 12:17:10 pm reply quote

Oh, phooey.

Sooooo close, yet sooooo far away.

17 CyanSnowHawk  6/27/08 12:17:21 pm reply quote

re: #3 pegcity

i thought America was done with this nonsense

Not sure where you've been lately, but this is far from over. As long as large groups of people believe in their religious explanations for how the world works, they will try to get them taught in our government run schools. It's expected and will have to be fought forever.

18 scottishbuzzsaw  6/27/08 12:17:49 pm reply quote

'Squandered' is the perfect word. There seems to be an epidemic of it on the right.

19 redc1c4  6/27/08 12:18:06 pm reply quote

re: #8 zombie

I don't know much about Bobby Jindal -- only read VP speculation here -- but it seems to me he just squandered whatever national political capital he might have had.

Oh well.

Next.

he's certainly off my list. as they say down in Nawlins "It's not the heat, it's the stupidity."

what a twit.

20 Boondock St. Bender  6/27/08 12:18:30 pm reply quote

Well,...it is the south and louisiana....
(ducks and runs)

21 Picayune  6/27/08 12:18:31 pm reply quote

Charles: sent you a Times Picayune article on this topic a few minutes ago. Did you receive, cause I received a mail return error from Cox.net? If no, I will resend.

22 MandyManners  6/27/08 12:18:50 pm reply quote

re: #10 bj1126

I don't see what the big deal is. /shrug

Lots worse problems with our education system than potentially teaching ID.

Do you want the Islamic creation myth taught?

23 SusanL  6/27/08 12:18:51 pm reply quote

So much for Bobby Jindal. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

24 HelloDare  6/27/08 12:19:04 pm reply quote

Jindal was so good on every other issue. And he's a good speaker. Damn. Hope Sarah Palin doesn't have any skeletons in her walk-in closet.

25 redc1c4  6/27/08 12:19:21 pm reply quote

re: #12 zombie

If Louisiana wants to continue their downward spiral into third-world status, than I guess that's their choice.

i thought they were pretty much there already. this is just icing on the cake.

26 coquimbojoe  6/27/08 12:20:18 pm reply quote

re: #8 zombie

I don't know much about Bobby Jindal -- only read VP speculation here -- but it seems to me he just squandered whatever national political capital he might have had.

Oh well.

Next.

I agree I am very disappointed. The problem with teaching creationism in schools is the same on as teaching values when dealing with sex education. I say stick to the science. Is evolutionary science perfect? No, but the fossils are there in front of us, we need to interpret them the best we can, and just because scientific understanding changes, the attempt to teach to the best level we can isn't invalidated. The problem with the creation (I AM A BELIEVER) is it is based on faith and intangibles. I don't want others of another faith teaching their dogmas to my children, nor do they want me teaching mine to theirs.

Stick with the science, the rest we can figure out in Sunday School.

27 Salamantis  6/27/08 12:20:32 pm reply quote

I see Bobby Jindal becoming Huey Long before my eyes. How sad.

28 coquimbojoe  6/27/08 12:20:34 pm reply quote

re: #12 zombie

If Louisiana wants to continue their downward spiral into third-world status, than I guess that's their choice.

You mean they can sink further?

29 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  6/27/08 12:20:43 pm reply quote

"will allow local school boards to approve supplemental materials for public school science classes as they discuss evolution, cloning and global warming."

How about they spend a little more time on reading, writing, and basic thinking skills and less on indoctrination and activism?

30 zombie  6/27/08 12:20:49 pm reply quote

To me, the top three educational problems in this country are:

1. Marxist indoctrination of students by leftist teachers, textbook companies, unions and pressure groups.

2. Affirmative action (and just as importantly, stealth affirmative action) watering down the overall standards for college admission, and giving an official imprimatur to institutionalized racist policies.

3. Political influence on scientific education, whether it be the man-made-global-warming fad or the "intelligent design" hoax.

31 Charles  6/27/08 12:21:11 pm reply quote

re: #21 Picayune

Charles: sent you a Times Picayune article on this topic a few minutes ago. Did you receive, cause I received a mail return error from Cox.net? If no, I will resend.

I think it's the same article -- I just checked the site to see what the status of the bill was. This got almost no national coverage.

32 kojirovance  6/27/08 12:21:19 pm reply quote

re: #15 zombie
ID opens the door to political influence of heretofore impartial science instruction. It' s very dangerous road.

That door is already open. Look at any school science textbook and see what they have to say about anthropogenic global warming.

33 lawhawk  6/27/08 12:21:21 pm reply quote

And this will surely solve Louisiana's problems that have it ranking near the bottom of various education surveys. Seriously, how exactly does watering down science with this stuff help anyone?

The luster is clearly off Jindal, especially in light of the pay raise mess, which continues to see recall petitions filed.

This is also a self-inflicted mess, and he gets what he deserves in scorn and derision.

34 Killgore Trout  6/27/08 12:21:29 pm reply quote

From the Disco Institute....
Victory in Louisiana: Governor Jindal Signs Historic Science Education Act On Evolution and Education

The law is needed for two reasons. First, around the country, science teachers are being harassed, intimidated, and sometimes fired for trying to present scientific evidence critical of Darwinian theory along with the evidence that supports it. Second, many school administrators and teachers are fearful or confused about what is legally allowed when teaching about controversial scientific issues like evolution.
35 MJ  6/27/08 12:22:19 pm reply quote

Jindal is living proof that there is no intelligence in Intelligent Design.
He's what Mencken called a "yahoo".

36 Boondock St. Bender  6/27/08 12:22:34 pm reply quote

The govt. corruption in la.is already a national embarressment.(it makes me shake my head,and i'm from dirty jersey)why not their education system.

37 HelloDare  6/27/08 12:22:43 pm reply quote

Jindal's head is below water. Quick, check the levees.

38 sadhu  6/27/08 12:22:45 pm reply quote

re: #30 zombie

To me, the top three educational problems in this country are:

1. Marxist indoctrination of students by leftist teachers, textbook companies, unions and pressure groups.

2. Affirmative action (and just as importantly, stealth affirmative action) watering down the overall standards for college admission, and giving an official imprimatur to institutionalized racist policies.

3. Political influence on scientific education, whether it be the man-made-global-warming fad or the "intelligent design" hoax.


4. Parental involvement. #1 in my book.

39 karmic_inquisitor  6/27/08 12:23:05 pm reply quote

Idiocy.

I have long advocated the return of Louisiana to the French or Spanish (just the state - not the states that make up the rest of the purchase) since the state is basically a welfare case, with federal money pouring in (even before Katrina) with said money disappearing followed by an appeal for more so that "the problems can be fixed".

At this point, they would not take them.

40 Catttt  6/27/08 12:23:07 pm reply quote

Based on my reading about the law, this is not a "creationist bill."

... the law that will allow local school boards to approve supplemental materials for public school science classes as they discuss evolution, cloning and global warming.

41 zombie  6/27/08 12:23:35 pm reply quote

re: #29 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

"will allow local school boards to approve supplemental materials for public school science classes as they discuss evolution, cloning and global warming."

How about they spend a little more time on reading, writing, and basic thinking skills and less on indoctrination and activism?

BINGO!

42 coquimbojoe  6/27/08 12:23:46 pm reply quote

re: #34 Killgore Trout

From the Disco Institute....
Victory in Louisiana: Governor Jindal Signs Historic Science Education Act On Evolution and Education

I think theory critical of Darwinian evolution is probably fine. Teaching things that can only be 'proven' by one's spiritual experience is another thing entirely.

43 snowcrash  6/27/08 12:25:44 pm reply quote

I think he is positioning himself as a VERY conservative Republican, who will be guaranteed the GOP nomination if we survive 8 years of a liberal Obama nightmare. Just my pet theory.

44 Lizard by the Bay  6/27/08 12:26:22 pm reply quote

re: #42 coquimbojoe

I think theory critical of Darwinian evolution is probably fine. Teaching things that can only be 'proven' by one's spiritual experience is another thing entirely.

Bingo. One can debate the merits and deficiencies in evolution theory without bringing the supernatural into the equation.

45 zombie  6/27/08 12:26:38 pm reply quote

re: #32 kojirovance

ID opens the door to political influence of heretofore impartial science instruction. It' s very dangerous road.

That door is already open. Look at any school science textbook and see what they have to say about anthropogenic global warming.

I agree. But two wrongs don't make a right.

We need to get rid of ALL political hoaxery disguised as science. If we just end up with two opposing sides each jousting to foist their particular lie on our kids, then it's a lose-lose situation.

I fight against leftist influence on schools just as much I do against creationism in the schools.

46 Dianna  6/27/08 12:26:40 pm reply quote

re: #9 Killgore Trout

It's looking that way, yes.

47 zombie  6/27/08 12:27:50 pm reply quote

re: #38 sadhu

4. Parental involvement. #1 in my book.

Or lack thereof, I assume you mean.

48 FloatingRock  6/27/08 12:27:51 pm reply quote

If Jindal is McCain's VP pick I'm voting for Obama.

49 Iron Fist  6/27/08 12:28:29 pm reply quote

re: #48 FloatingRock,

If you are serious, then you, sir, are a moron.

50 Beobachter  6/27/08 12:28:39 pm reply quote

re: #15 zombie

No, actually, I'd place it in the top three problems.

ID opens the door to political influence of heretofore impartial science instruction. It' s very dangerous road.

I would call it a slippery slope.

51 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  6/27/08 12:29:08 pm reply quote

re: #48 FloatingRock

If Jindal is McCain's VP pick I'm voting for Obama.

Well, you're an idiot.

52 Lizard by the Bay  6/27/08 12:29:18 pm reply quote

re: #48 FloatingRock

If Jindal is McCain's VP pick I'm voting for Obama.

I'll still vote McCain. I'll just hope extra-hard that he doesn't croak in office.

53 zombie  6/27/08 12:29:23 pm reply quote
#40 Catttt
Based on my reading about the law, this is not a "creationist bill."

... the law that will allow local school boards to approve supplemental materials for public school science classes as they discuss evolution, cloning and global warming.

See? as I suspected, it opens the door to ALL political-scientific hoaxery.

A complete disaster.

Thanks for pointing that out.

54 jaunte  6/27/08 12:29:25 pm reply quote

re: #48 FloatingRock

"Don't vote idiotic."

55 MandyManners  6/27/08 12:29:31 pm reply quote

re: #49 Iron Fist

,

If you are serious, then you, sir, are a fucking moron.

56 loppyd  6/27/08 12:29:44 pm reply quote

re: #48 FloatingRock

If Jindal is McCain's VP pick I'm voting for Obama.

Good luck with that.

57 Shug  6/27/08 12:29:45 pm reply quote
a Seattle-based think tank

Not nearly enough thinking going on

58 Iron Fist  6/27/08 12:30:16 pm reply quote

re: #55 MandyManners,

Fixed :-)

59 MJ  6/27/08 12:30:21 pm reply quote

Jindal also wants to chemically castrate rapists.

Who knows, perhaps he'll want to cut of the hands of thieves next.

[Link: talkingpointsmemo.com...]

60 Dianna  6/27/08 12:30:39 pm reply quote

re: #30 zombie

A friend of mine told me yesterday that her niece came home from class and told my friend and her sister that they shouldn't have children, but adopt from other countries.

That's outrageous.

61 Salamantis  6/27/08 12:30:50 pm reply quote

re: #42 coquimbojoe

I think theory critical of Darwinian evolution is probably fine. Teaching things that can only be 'proven' by one's spiritual experience is another thing entirely.

There is no credible science that reasonably criticizes evolutionary theory; there are only internecine disputes about which particular evolutionary mechanisms accomplish it, and by which particular means - and these differences are tertiary, not fundamental.

62 lawhawk  6/27/08 12:31:05 pm reply quote

Folks, here's a copy of the law in question. Also posted to the spinoffs.

63 Catttt  6/27/08 12:31:08 pm reply quote

Too bad biology isn't more like chemistry. If you mix subjectivity into chemistry, it can blow up in your face.

64 karmic_inquisitor  6/27/08 12:31:37 pm reply quote

I really do think it is time to start a movement within political ranks to form a "Rationalist Coalition" that actually advocates policy based on a demonstrated, reasoned understanding of what problem is supposedly being "solved" with a piece of legislation.

First 3 targets -

(1) Intelligent design.

(2) Climate research funding that can't produce predictive outcomes, and back tested outcomes that conform to prior (and unadjusted) climate and geological records.

(3) Sarbanes Oxley (which has killed the competitiveness of public companies in this country that gross less than $100M a year). As a friend of mine who argues cases before the SEC said "bad facts lead to bad laws")

/feel free to add more.

65 hermeneutics  6/27/08 12:31:41 pm reply quote

OT -- I gotta run and thought you'd enjoy reading this. Sorry for not waiting until 100:

19 out of the top 50 newspapers are in the red. By my calculations, 17 of them are liberal-left. So how many of these propagandists will be around to fluff up Obama in November?

[Link: www.thestandard.com...]

66 dgax65  6/27/08 12:31:51 pm reply quote

re: #15 zombie

ID opens the door to political influence of heretofore impartial science instruction. It' s very dangerous road.

Heretofore impartial science instruction? Does that include global warming indoctrination? Junk science has been pushed on school children for quite a while now. I don't agree with ID, but I doubt it will cost us as much as all the global warming hysteria-driven legislation that is out there.

67 Iron Fist  6/27/08 12:32:12 pm reply quote

re: #59 MJ,

Actually, he'd prefer to kill rapists, but the Supreme Court told him he can't. Who are you, the National Rapist's Association? It seems like a pretty reasonable solution to me.

68 Ben Hur  6/27/08 12:32:18 pm reply quote

Ray Nagin for VP!

69 Taqiyyotomist  6/27/08 12:32:25 pm reply quote

#0

GAZE

-Taq

70 zombie  6/27/08 12:32:48 pm reply quote

re: #48 FloatingRock

If Jindal is McCain's VP pick I'm voting for Obama.

Whoa whoa whoa, let's not go nuts.

The federal government does not set science curriculum standards. That is exclusively a state-level decision. So Jindal's position on this would be irrelevant, as VP.

I wouldn't be happy if he got the nomination, but I'm quite certain he's a damn sight better than Obama, fer cryin' out loud. Every leftist propaganda lie in the playbook would be shoved down our kids' throats if Obama got elected.

71 buzzsawmonkey  6/27/08 12:32:55 pm reply quote

re: #60 Dianna

A friend of mine told me yesterday that her niece came home from class and told my friend and her sister that they shouldn't have children, but adopt from other countries.

That's outrageous.

I bet the next thing they'll tell the kids is that, having adopted someone from another country, it is the adoptive parents' task to raise the child in full awareness of its own proud ethnic heritage/tradition, rather than the parents' own.

72 Occasional Reader  6/27/08 12:32:59 pm reply quote

re: #60 Dianna

A friend of mine told me yesterday that her niece came home from class and told my friend and her sister that they shouldn't have children, but adopt from other countries.

That's outrageous.

Viva "The Screwfly Solution"... this pretty much proves that our current public education establishment has been infiltrated by space aliens.

73 lawhawk  6/27/08 12:33:38 pm reply quote

Also from the legislative history of SB 733:

It passed both the house and senate nearly unanimously:
The House passed the final version 94-3. The Senate passed this bill 35-0.

74 Step on a Bug  6/27/08 12:33:45 pm reply quote

Jees. Big Deal. what's wrong with ID Charles? Lighen up.

75 Occasional Reader  6/27/08 12:34:07 pm reply quote

re: #63 Catttt

Too bad biology isn't more like chemistry. If you mix subjectivity into chemistry, it can blow up in your face.

Exothermic reactions are a social construct!

76 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  6/27/08 12:34:18 pm reply quote

re: #70 zombie

Guy had 85 posts while being registered for over a year. Drive by trolling.

77 JohnnyReb  6/27/08 12:34:52 pm reply quote

Moonbats to the left of me and moonbats to the right of me. How do I get away?

Leave religion out of public schools!

78 snowcrash  6/27/08 12:35:00 pm reply quote

re: #74 Step on a Bug
Did you lurk much before posting here?

79 zombie  6/27/08 12:35:15 pm reply quote

re: #60 Dianna

A friend of mine told me yesterday that her niece came home from class and told my friend and her sister that they shouldn't have children, but adopt from other countries.

That's outrageous.

That's beyond outrageous -- it's completely insane!

Tell your friend to follow up on the situation -- find out which teach taught them that, and pursue her.

80 Occasional Reader  6/27/08 12:35:42 pm reply quote

re: #64 karmic_inquisitor

/feel free to add more.

McCain-Feingold.

81 Dianna  6/27/08 12:36:13 pm reply quote

re: #71 buzzsawmonkey

re: #72 Occasional Reader

Yep. I'm really outraged; the school has no business propagandizing 9 year olds this way.

I miss Tiptree/Sheldon.

82 Shug  6/27/08 12:36:27 pm reply quote

re: #74 Step on a Bug

Jees. Big Deal. what's wrong with ID Charles? Lighen up.


2 posts in 3 months.

curious

83 Beobachter  6/27/08 12:36:36 pm reply quote

re: #60 Dianna

A friend of mine told me yesterday that her niece came home from class and told my friend and her sister that they shouldn't have children, but adopt from other countries.

That's outrageous.

We need school vouchers. Paying school taxes plus private school is not cheap.

84 MandyManners  6/27/08 12:36:49 pm reply quote

re: #74 Step on a Bug

Jees. Big Deal. what's wrong with ID Charles? Lighen up.

Do you want the Muslim creation myth taught to kids?

85 Occasional Reader  6/27/08 12:36:52 pm reply quote

If Jindal is Obama's VP pick, I'm voting for McCain.

/what?

86 Lizard by the Bay  6/27/08 12:37:08 pm reply quote

re: #59 MJ

Jindal also wants to chemically castrate rapists.

Who knows, perhaps he'll want to cut of the hands of thieves next.

[Link: talkingpointsmemo.com...]

Intemperate un-PC thought coming...

When will he legalize immolation as a legal form of divorce?

Okay, I'm done.

87 Sharmuta  6/27/08 12:37:19 pm reply quote
In signing the bill, Jindal issued a brief statement that read in part: "I will continue to consistently support the ability of school boards and BESE to make the best decisions to ensure a quality education for our children."

Governor- you did just the opposite.

88 dgax65  6/27/08 12:37:26 pm reply quote

So Bobby Jindal gets tossed under the GOP bus for one misstep? I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. He is still early in his political career and, so far, he has much more conservative credibility than most members of the GOP.

89 Occasional Reader  6/27/08 12:37:36 pm reply quote

re: #81 Dianna

I miss Tiptree/Sheldon.

But probably not enough to name your daughter "Raccoona"!

90 Ben Hur  6/27/08 12:37:40 pm reply quote

re: #79 zombie

That's beyond outrageous -- it's completely insane!

Tell your friend to follow up on the situation -- find out which teach taught them that, and pursue her.


Of course they left will be oblivious to the innate paternal racism of their stance.

They assume that the peoples of the third world aren't capable of raising their own children, with or without the whole village.

The third world is now a puppy shop for celebs.

Madonna "adopted" a child whose parents are alive and well.

91 Catttt  6/27/08 12:37:59 pm reply quote

re: #62 lawhawk

Folks, here's a copy of the law in question. Also posted to the spinoffs.

Excellent. Thank you for that.

92 Occasional Reader  6/27/08 12:38:17 pm reply quote

re: #84 MandyManners

Do you want the Muslim creation myth taught to kids?

I assume it begins with a Big Bang.

93 debutaunt  6/27/08 12:38:51 pm reply quote

re: #71 buzzsawmonkey

I bet the next thing they'll tell the kids is that, having adopted someone from another country, it is the adoptive parents' task to raise the child in full awareness of its own proud ethnic heritage/tradition, rather than the parents' own.

Rosie must have some problem with our melting pot.

94 Dianna  6/27/08 12:38:52 pm reply quote

re: #79 zombie

Her sister - the child's mother - won't do any such thing. Fortunately, my friend told her niece that it's a good thing that no one told her mom that, or the child wouldn't exist. My friend further told her niece that she should have as many children as she wants.

95 Catttt  6/27/08 12:39:17 pm reply quote

re: #75 Occasional Reader

Exothermic reactions are a social construct!

My daddy was a chemistry teacher (and football coach). He loved chemistry (and football).

96 buzzsawmonkey  6/27/08 12:39:37 pm reply quote

re: #90 Ben Hur

It takes a village to sell a child.

97 zombie  6/27/08 12:39:38 pm reply quote

re: #66 dgax65

ID opens the door to political influence of heretofore impartial science instruction. It' s very dangerous road.

Heretofore impartial science instruction? Does that include global warming indoctrination? Junk science has been pushed on school children for quite a while now. I don't agree with ID, but I doubt it will cost us as much as all the global warming hysteria-driven legislation that is out there.

Like I said, both hoaxes are bad. Two wrings don't make a right.

The global warming thing is actually a passing fad that will be forgotten in 5 years. The creationist movement, however, has been around since the very week after Darwin published The Origin of Species in 1859, and shows no sign of letting up.
Because of this, I worry a bit more about ID than I do global warming.

98 wolfie  6/27/08 12:39:47 pm reply quote

re: #92 Occasional Reader

I assume it begins with a Big Bang.

I believe they called it the Big Bomb, though.

99 schultzw  6/27/08 12:40:04 pm reply quote

I don't see the big deal about teaching ID. It doesn't promote any one religion, and it seeks to explain a lot of what science can't. Can we at LGF get off of talking about ID vs. Evolution and focus on what really matters: keeping America safe from moonbats and terrorists!

100 Dianna  6/27/08 12:40:16 pm reply quote

re: #89 Occasional Reader

No. I'm not cruel!

It's bad enough that my mom saddled me with two 'n's.

101 Richard Romano  6/27/08 12:40:20 pm reply quote

The LGF headline is hysterical -- I'm disappointed in Charles, a man I respect deeply for the way he handles the important issues we face.

Tell me ONE medical discovery linked to evolution -- just one. I can tell you many medical discoveries linked to scientific experimentation and observation (operational science), and nothing at all to do with origins science (evolution or creation). You could be a snake handler or astrologer and still come up with a medical breakthrough.

The vote for support was 93-4, so it's not as if it was a "stealth" move by quasi-scientists.

102 Occasional Reader  6/27/08 12:40:29 pm reply quote

re: #90 Ben Hur

The third world is now a puppy shop for celebs.

Heh.

103 MandyManners  6/27/08 12:40:30 pm reply quote

re: #92 Occasional Reader

I assume it begins with a Big Bang.

Yep.

104 karmic_inquisitor  6/27/08 12:40:32 pm reply quote

re: #74 Step on a Bug

Jees. Big Deal. what's wrong with ID Charles? Lighen up.

I won't speak for the man, but this country had some great innovations that ushered in the era of prosperity and health you now enjoy.

One of the cornerstones was a free public education.

If that education becomes indoctrination into a model of the world that is incorrect and cannot produce repeatable, testable methods for further discovery, then kiss prosperity and job creation here goodbye.

Say goodbye to biomedical science here in the US, because we won't be capable of producing treatments other than what Christian Scientists currently offer.

What would the Discovery Institute then offer us? Divine Physics? Say goodbye to structures that can survive the first wind storm ...

I believe in God. I don't have to think every phenomena around me is exclusively being carried out by God's Hand to keep my faith.

105 HelloDare  6/27/08 12:40:44 pm reply quote

We could ask Jesus how he feels about teaching ID in schools.

The Jesus Christ Show is a radio program that airs every Sunday from 6 to 9 a.m. on KFI in Los Angeles, California. The show is billed as "Hosted by Jesus Christ". Jesus is played by its producer Neil Saavedra. The show will become a part of Premiere Radio Networks starting on June 1, 2008, and will be syndicated to several stations in the US.

"The Jesus Christ Show" began as a short segment on KFI’s The Bill Handel Show, when Saavedra was invited to play the role of Jesus as a serious guest for an Easter program segment.[1]

A podcast version of the show is available from KFI's web page.

You can take a cruise with Jesus Christ on September 3rd.

106 calculatorjockey  6/27/08 12:40:45 pm reply quote

I welcome teaching intelligent design in public schools, frankly.

Darwinian evolution is a crock. People generally accept it because they want to. It is the most absolutely flawed pack of nonsense that I have heard in public schools. It is less credible than global warming.

The fossil record doesn't support evolution, if anything, it argues against it.

However; I would be willing to vote against teaching ID in schools if science teachers were permitted to go on at length about the oodles of fatal flaws in the religion of evolution.

107 MandyManners  6/27/08 12:41:03 pm reply quote

re: #99 schultzw

I don't see the big deal about teaching ID. It doesn't promote any one religion, and it seeks to explain a lot of what science can't. Can we at LGF get off of talking about ID vs. Evolution and focus on what really matters: keeping America safe from moonbats and terrorists!

You've just told Charles that his furniture sucks.

108 Sharmuta  6/27/08 12:41:10 pm reply quote

Louisiana already got smacked down for sneaking creationism into schools once. I guess some people need lessons repeated.

109 debutaunt  6/27/08 12:41:11 pm reply quote

re: #82 Shug

2 posts in 3 months.

curious

Must have started reading a dictionary and was amazed.

110 Honorary Yooper  6/27/08 12:41:32 pm reply quote

re: #88 dgax65

So Bobby Jindal gets tossed under the GOP bus for one misstep? I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. He is still early in his political career and, so far, he has much more conservative credibility than most members of the GOP.

Since when did LGF become a GOP website? We're anti-idiotarian.

111 BuddyG  6/27/08 12:41:58 pm reply quote

re: #84 MandyManners

Do you want the Muslim creation myth taught to kids?


There shouldn't be teaching of any specific religion's dogma in public schools.
But there's nothing wrong with a generic mention that many people believe there is a creator of our Universe. A guiding force.

112 redc1c4  6/27/08 12:42:00 pm reply quote

re: #76 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Guy had 85 posts while being registered for over a year. Drive by trolling.

kinda what i thought..... and now we have "step on a bug".

(gamey buttocks for lunch, anyone? %-)

113 Dianna  6/27/08 12:42:24 pm reply quote

re: #102 Occasional Reader

I missed Ben Hur's #90. Glad you didn't!

114 Lizard by the Bay  6/27/08 12:42:44 pm reply quote
I don't see the big deal about teaching ID. It doesn't promote any one religion, and it seeks to explain a lot of what science can't.

It promotes belief in a supernatural power, which is not science, no matter how you cook it up.

And folks, I'm not against religion in schools. In philosophy and social studies classes, it's almost a necessity to understanding human history and humanity. In science class? It's a joke.

115 Catttt  6/27/08 12:43:04 pm reply quote

re: #53 zombie

See? as I suspected, it opens the door to ALL political-scientific hoaxery.

A complete disaster.

Thanks for pointing that out.

The law does say "objective" in it and also "no religion or anti-religion or any of that religion stuff" in it. At any rate, it puts it in the hands of the school boards. Perhaps the school boards will be sharper than predicted. You never know. It could happen. Possibly. Mayhap.

116 redc1c4  6/27/08 12:43:18 pm reply quote

re: #78 snowcrash

Did you lurk much before posting here?

Magic 8-ball says "not likely" %-)

117 MandyManners  6/27/08 12:43:27 pm reply quote

re: #109 debutaunt

Must have started reading a dictionary and was amazed.

ROFLMAO!

118 Sharmuta  6/27/08 12:43:36 pm reply quote

Shug-

it's no different than the last big controversy at LGF. Suddenly, out of what seems like no where, lurkers feel the need to tell Charles what to do with his blog.

119 wolf  6/27/08 12:43:53 pm reply quote

For the first time, I can honestly say that I disagree with a lot of the postings on LGF. I believe in intelligent design, and have since Carl Sagan put it forward in the 70's. Why is it hard to believe in a Creator simply because we understand the technology he used to create us?

Jindal has rising in my eyes, and I would support him as VP candidate.

120 redc1c4  6/27/08 12:44:01 pm reply quote

re: #115 Catttt

The law does say "objective" in it and also "no religion or anti-religion or any of that religion stuff" in it. At any rate, it puts it in the hands of the school boards. Perhaps the school boards will be sharper than predicted. You never know. It could happen. Possibly. Mayhap.

about as likely as me winning the lottery without a ticket.

121 MandyManners  6/27/08 12:44:02 pm reply quote

re: #111 BuddyG

There shouldn't be teaching of any specific religion's dogma in public schools.
But there's nothing wrong with a generic mention that many people believe there is a creator of our Universe. A guiding force.

As long as they don't teach it, I have no problem with it.

122 Dianna  6/27/08 12:44:07 pm reply quote

re: #106 calculatorjockey

I'm sorry you feel that way.

123 calculatorjockey  6/27/08 12:44:27 pm reply quote

OK

124 cjstavern  6/27/08 12:44:29 pm reply quote

I never did understand the seething rage and irrational hatred for ID..........and I'm an agnositc. I remember as a kid we were taught both evolution and I believe they called it creationism back then. That was back in the early 70's and we all turned out ok.

125 Ben Hur  6/27/08 12:44:37 pm reply quote
126 Occasional Reader  6/27/08 12:44:59 pm reply quote

re: #106 calculatorjockey

The fossil record doesn't support evolution, if anything, it argues against it.

I always wondered why all those fossils at the Museum of Natural History were always dated to within six days of each other.

127 zombie  6/27/08 12:45:06 pm reply quote

re: #88 dgax65

So Bobby Jindal gets tossed under the GOP bus for one misstep? I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. He is still early in his political career and, so far, he has much more conservative credibility than most members of the GOP.

I don't care about "conservative credibility." I care about sane policies.

Conservatism (and liberalism) as a coherent philosophy is out-of-whack with current political realities. Sure, conservativism is on average more "correct" than liberalism, but we need to be able to pick and choose what we believe a la carte from the buffet table of political opinions. I refuse to order a set menu that includes some distasteful dishes I'd rather not swallow.

128 Shug  6/27/08 12:45:20 pm reply quote

re: #118 Sharmuta

Shug-

it's no different than the last big controversy at LGF. Suddenly, out of what seems like no where, lurkers sock puppets feel the need to tell Charles what to do with his blog.

fixed

129 kulhwch  6/27/08 12:45:52 pm reply quote
“This bill bullshit is not a license bullshit to propagandize bullshit against something bullshit they don’t like in science bullshit,” West said. “Someone who uses materials bullshit to inject religion bullshit into the classroom is not only violating the Constitution bullshit, they are violating the bill bullshit.”

There, that is much more honest ...

}:)     ["Cleetus, tell yore maw whut you lairned 'bout fossils today ... "]

130 Sharmuta  6/27/08 12:46:04 pm reply quote

re: #119 wolf

Because ID is a political movement. Read the Wedge Strategy.

Read what it's proponents have to say themselves:

"This isn't really, and never has been a debate about science. It's about religion and philosophy."

131 zombie  6/27/08 12:46:15 pm reply quote

re: #96 buzzsawmonkey

It takes a village to sell a child.

LOL!

132 redc1c4  6/27/08 12:46:16 pm reply quote

re: #92 Occasional Reader

I assume it begins with a Big Bang.

that's the end...... %-)

133 keithgabryelski  6/27/08 12:46:56 pm reply quote

re: #8 zombie

I don't know much about Bobby Jindal -- only read VP speculation here -- but it seems to me he just squandered whatever national political capital he might have had.

Oh well.

Next.

There is MORE than just "bringing teh ID crazy" from Jindal

He lead an exorcism:
[Link: www.time-blog.com...]

134 BuddyG  6/27/08 12:46:56 pm reply quote

re: #121 MandyManners

As long as they don't teach it, I have no problem with it.

My daughter has asked "why are we here?"
Kid's minds naturally wonder about these things.

Why something rather than nothing?

There is room for both science and spirituality.

135 Charles  6/27/08 12:47:16 pm reply quote

re: #62 lawhawk

Folks, here's a copy of the law in question. Also posted to the spinoffs.

The bits about global warming and cloning are just window dressing.

Although as zombie points out, they're not harmless either. Their inclusion makes the political motivations behind this education bill even more obvious.

136 Honorary Yooper  6/27/08 12:47:25 pm reply quote

re: #118 Sharmuta

Shug-

it's no different than the last big controversy at LGF. Suddenly, out of what seems like no where, lurkers feel the need to tell Charles what to do with his blog.

Yeah, this is no different than when we had the fascists and their supporters last year. In fact, a lot of the YEC criticisms of Charles seem to be exactly the same, complaints he is straying from the topic, complaints he isn't focusing on what they want him to focus one, etc. I'm sorry they feel that way, but they can make up their own fucking website on blogger if they feel that way. I have my own blog (see highlighted nic) for my own purpose. This is Charles's blog for whatever purpose Charles intends to use it for whether they like it or not.

137 Sharmuta  6/27/08 12:48:03 pm reply quote

re: #106 calculatorjockey

The fossil record doesn't support evolution, if anything, it argues against it.

Wrong!

138 redstateredneck  6/27/08 12:48:32 pm reply quote

re: #106 calculatorjockey

re: #119 wolf

I agree with you. Plus, what about state rights? Less federal government?

139 karmic_inquisitor  6/27/08 12:48:37 pm reply quote

re: #106 calculatorjockey

I welcome teaching intelligent design in public schools, frankly.

Darwinian evolution is a crock. People generally accept it because they want to. It is the most absolutely flawed pack of nonsense that I have heard in public schools. It is less credible than global warming.

The fossil record doesn't support evolution, if anything, it argues against it.

However; I would be willing to vote against teaching ID in schools if science teachers were permitted to go on at length about the oodles of fatal flaws in the religion of evolution.

All you have to do to support your argument is disprove the theory.

That is how theory works.

Newton took a back seat to Einstein when Einstein usurped many parts of Newtonian Mechanics with his theory of relativity, which was them usurped in part by Hawking. At each step, repeatable experiment demonstrated support for the new theory and disproved the prior understanding.

Post the disproving theory ALONG WITH the observation/experiment that is repeatable by third parties in any lab, please.

140 Ben Hur  6/27/08 12:48:52 pm reply quote

Then why do they call it the "missing link?"

/stirring pot.

141 Lizard by the Bay  6/27/08 12:49:06 pm reply quote

re: #118 Sharmuta

Sharmuta,

Pro-ID posters are and should be tolerated, so long as they are respectful. This is not the same as the last big controversy here (the Euro-racists) in that their position was vile and had no place on this (or any) conservative blog. ID supporters aren't vile. Just wrong.

142 keithgabryelski  6/27/08 12:49:13 pm reply quote

re: #111 BuddyG

There shouldn't be teaching of any specific religion's dogma in public schools.
But there's nothing wrong with a generic mention that many people believe there is a creator of our Universe. A guiding force.

What part of SCIENCE CLASS is it appropriate to mention "a creator of our Universe" or "A guiding force"?

143 FloatingRock  6/27/08 12:49:16 pm reply quote

re: #49 Iron Fist

,

If you are serious, then you, sir, are a moron.

No, I'll be voting against two morons. In that respect, let me correct my prior statement. I won't vote "for" Obama, I'll vote against McCain/Jindal.

Science is bigger and older than any single nation. While I'm a patriotic American I am also loyal to the scientific method. With Jindal's participation in an exorcism combined with this evidence that he doesn't believe in the separation of church and state, (quite the opposite), magnified by his willingness to pervert science, I have to vote against him.

If the numbers ran a different way I might vote for him anyway, but this is the calculation as I see it. A greater number of American's believe in creationism than in leftist political philosophy. Any damage that Obama can to do this country will be easier to undo than that done by somebody like Jindal on the opposite end of the spectrum.

144 Catttt  6/27/08 12:49:37 pm reply quote

re: #30 zombie

To me, the top three educational problems in this country are:

1. Marxist indoctrination of students by leftist teachers, textbook companies, unions and pressure groups.

2. Affirmative action (and just as importantly, stealth affirmative action) watering down the overall standards for college admission, and giving an official imprimatur to institutionalized racist policies.

3. Political influence on scientific education, whether it be the man-made-global-warming fad or the "intelligent design" hoax.

Well put. I hearted it.

145 calculatorjockey  6/27/08 12:50:04 pm reply quote

#126

haha

It's funny how cocksure scientists are about what they "know" now. It wasn't that long ago that scientists were absolutely sure about dozens of organs (vestigal) in the human body from man's earlier stages. These were regarded as left-overs which served no purpose in the anatomy of the modern human. Some medical journals as late as the 1960s included these including the pituitary gland. Imagine if a 5 year old had his pituitary gland removed because it was garbage.

In another hundred years scientists will have changed their minds about many things that they believe with absolute certainty.

We give so much authority and credibility to the speculations of scientists. It is amazing. Scientists are people, too. They have their own bias and there own issues with God.

146 ContraJihadi  6/27/08 12:50:35 pm reply quote

re: #1 Lizard by the Bay

No VP slot for you.

Yes, whatever the merits of the issues or the realities of Louisiana politics, Jindal has just taken himself off the national stage.

147 Occasional Reader  6/27/08 12:50:36 pm reply quote

re: #138 redstateredneck

re: #119 wolf

I agree with you. Plus, what about state rights? Less federal government?

I don't see anyone here arguing that the Federal government should somehow override the Lousiana legislature here. We're saying that what they did is a bad idea, not that they didn't have the right to do it.

148 Sharmuta  6/27/08 12:51:00 pm reply quote

re: #138 redstateredneck

1) States do not have rights over the rules of science.
2) It's quite a stretch to suggest this bill promotes state's rights when it actually usurps the First Amendment.

149 loppyd  6/27/08 12:51:05 pm reply quote

re: #143 FloatingRock

If the numbers ran a different way I might vote for him anyway, but this is the calculation as I see it. A greater number of American's believe in creationism than in leftist political philosophy. Any damage that Obama can to do this country will be easier to undo than that done by somebody like Jindal on the opposite end of the spectrum.

Put down the crack pipe.

150 debutaunt  6/27/08 12:51:11 pm reply quote

re: #140 Ben Hur

Then why do they call it the "missing link?"

/stirring pot.

PIYF - didn't ya mean to say linky?

151 kulhwch  6/27/08 12:51:28 pm reply quote

re: #14 NJDhockeyfan

Yesterday he signed the “The Sex Offender Chemical Castration Bill."

Without chemistry instruction, that'll prove to be a tad difficult to enforce ... but maybe their alchemy will work better ...

}:)     ["Okay, then, we're going to hit your gonads now with the Philosopher's Stone .... this should smart a bit ... "]

152 WriterMom  6/27/08 12:51:32 pm reply quote

re: #92 Occasional Reader

It was one of the biggest bangs ever apparently.

153 lawhawk  6/27/08 12:51:46 pm reply quote
The State Board of Elementary and Secondary Education, upon request of a city, parish, or other local public school board, shall allow and assist teachers, principals, and other school administrators to create and foster an environment within public elementary and secondary schools that promotes critical thinking skills, logical analysis, and open and objective discussion of scientific theories being studied including, but not limited to, evolution, the origins of life, global warming, and human cloning.

Such assistance shall include support and guidance for teachers regarding effective ways to help students understand, analyze, critique, and objectively review scientific theories being studied, including those enumerated in Paragraph (1) of this Subsection.

C. A teacher shall teach the material presented in the standard textbook supplied by the school system and thereafter may use supplemental textbooks and other instructional materials to help students understand, analyze, critique, and review scientific theories in an objective manner, as permitted by the city, parish, or other local public school board unless otherwise prohibited by the State Board of Elementary and Secondary Education.

D. This Section shall not be construed to promote any religious doctrine, promote discrimination for or against a particular set of religious beliefs, or promote discrimination for or against religion or nonreligion.

E. The State Board of Elementary and Secondary Education and each city, parish, or other local public school board shall adopt and promulgate the rules and regulations necessary to implement the provisions of this Section prior to the beginning of the 2008-2009 school year.

That's the text of this bill. The way it is worded does open up a whole can of worms, but not only on the issue evolution, but on global warming, or any other issue for that matter.

It allows junk science to enter the classroom in the name of supplemental materials. Heck, a teacher could argue that The Inconvenient Truth is a useful educational tool to teach about ecology, the environment, and global warming.

This bill opens the door for chicanery from all sides, not just on ID.

I understand the general desire by Jindal and the legislature to do something to help students learn, but this law obfuscates the matter by allowing just about anything to enter the classroom in the name of supplemental materials. Of course, one has to wonder how is that any different than the current mess that LA (or anywhere else) is in.

154 MandyManners  6/27/08 12:52:13 pm reply quote

re: #134 BuddyG

My daughter has asked "why are we here?"
Kid's minds naturally wonder about these things.

Why something rather than nothing?

There is room for both science and spirituality.

Agreed but, I don't want the public schools teaching the latter.

155 Sharmuta  6/27/08 12:52:23 pm reply quote

re: #147 Occasional Reader

But they don't have the right to violate the First Amendment- that's what's really behind the ID movement.

156 Ben Hur  6/27/08 12:52:36 pm reply quote

re: #152 WriterMom

It was one of the biggest bangs ever apparently.

OR, the MAN!

157 WriterMom  6/27/08 12:52:40 pm reply quote

re: #140 Ben Hur

No, get with the program. It's a "missing 404" nowadays.

158 zombie  6/27/08 12:52:42 pm reply quote

re: #111 BuddyG

There shouldn't be teaching of any specific religion's dogma in public schools.
But there's nothing wrong with a generic mention that many people believe there is a creator of our Universe. A guiding force.

Fine.

But what exactly does that have to do with evolution?

Nothing.

Teach the various religious philosophies in religion class or anthropology class.

Or should we also teach in geology class that volcanos spew fire because Haephestus is down there making horseshoes for Pegasus on his divine anvil?

I mean, some people thought that was true, so it belongs in science class, by your way of thinking.

159 Occasional Reader  6/27/08 12:52:52 pm reply quote

re: #119 wolf

I believe in intelligent design, and have since Carl Sagan put it forward in the 70's.

Huh?

160 Charles  6/27/08 12:53:09 pm reply quote

re: #141 Lizard by the Bay

Sharmuta,

Pro-ID posters are and should be tolerated, so long as they are respectful. This is not the same as the last big controversy here (the Euro-racists) in that their position was vile and had no place on this (or any) conservative blog. ID supporters aren't vile. Just wrong.

I agree -- however, I won't tolerate people who deliberately propagate information that is false (e.g., by dumping quotes from creationist "quote mines").

161 WriterMom  6/27/08 12:53:27 pm reply quote

re: #156 Ben Hur

But I was the only one disgusting enough to continue along....

162 Iron Fist  6/27/08 12:53:32 pm reply quote

re: #135 Charles,

I've pretty much kept my mouth shut about this issue, because I'm of mixed minds on it. But you can't possibly mean that it is OK to teach Al Gorism in science class but not Creationism?

Last time I checked, no one was trying to add a "creation" tax to your gas bill, let alone try to cut the economy back to a smaller, more "creationist correct" size. Algorism is taught as gospel, and is a greater threat to our society than any form of creationism.

If this bill tries to address that, it is good.

163 redc1c4  6/27/08 12:53:41 pm reply quote

re: #142 keithgabryelski

What part of SCIENCE CLASS is it appropriate to mention "a creator of our Universe" or "A guiding force"?

in the "philosophy" module?

oh wait.... philosophy *isn't* a science.......

/never mind

164 Catttt  6/27/08 12:54:00 pm reply quote

re: #110 Honorary Yooper

Since when did LGF become a GOP website? We're anti-idiotarian.

True. For example, I'm a Democrat. Still. I was going to go Indie, but the guy at the MVA pointed out that I wouldn't be able to vote in primaries.

165 Occasional Reader  6/27/08 12:54:31 pm reply quote

re: #155 Sharmuta

But they don't have the right to violate the First Amendment- that's what's really behind the ID movement.

You're right, and I should have been a lot more clear; I meant that I don't see anyone arguing that the Federal government should be setting Louisiana's educational standards.

166 Sharmuta  6/27/08 12:54:44 pm reply quote

re: #141 Lizard by the Bay

I'm just pointing out the similarity in tactics- that's all.

167 BuddyG  6/27/08 12:55:08 pm reply quote

re: #142 keithgabryelski

What part of SCIENCE CLASS is it appropriate to mention "a creator of our Universe" or "A guiding force"?



Science class, among other things, talks about our Universe, the Big Bang, and so forth. That's a relevant context for mention of a creator, guiding force.

168 Occasional Reader  6/27/08 12:55:11 pm reply quote

re: #156 Ben Hur

OR, the MAN!

Yeah, baby! Yeah, yeah!

169 FloatingRock  6/27/08 12:55:21 pm reply quote
#66 dgax65 6/27/08 12:31:51 pm reply quote 1

Heretofore impartial science instruction? Does that include global warming indoctrination? Junk science has been pushed on school children for quite a while now. I don't agree with ID, but I doubt it will cost us as much as all the global warming hysteria-driven legislation that is out there.


Except now that both ends of the political spectrum have an interest in perverting science through the education system both will be more intractable. The correct solution is to try to stop the other side, not participate and compound the problem.

170 Oh no...Sand People!  6/27/08 12:55:27 pm reply quote

"Behead those who threaten Islam evolution!" *

/ (ducks under desk,)

*Though I personally agree that a Supreme Being organized always existing materials, ID is not the way to move forward.

171 filetandrelease  6/27/08 12:55:34 pm reply quote

Perhaps if they use the book "The Mind of God" by Paul Davies for the curriculum it would at least be interesting and not devoid of all merit.

172 Occasional Reader  6/27/08 12:56:03 pm reply quote

re: #167 BuddyG

Science class, among other things, talks about our Universe, the Big Bang, and so forth. That's a relevant context for mention of a creator, guiding force.

Oh my Gaia.

No, it isn't. Because that has nothing to do with "science".

By the way, I assume if they opted (in a public school) for talking about Allah as the guiding force, right?

173 Dianna  6/27/08 12:56:09 pm reply quote

re: #138 redstateredneck

What are you talking about?

174 WriterMom  6/27/08 12:56:12 pm reply quote

re: #168 Occasional Reader

Uh oh-we've created a monster!

175 zombie  6/27/08 12:56:19 pm reply quote

re: #119 wolf

I believe in intelligent design, and have since Carl Sagan put it forward in the 70's.

Say what?

Link, please.

176 sinsremoved  6/27/08 12:56:42 pm reply quote

There seems to be a lot of transitional life forms seething over an ID bill.

177 buzzsawmonkey  6/27/08 12:57:18 pm reply quote

I am increasingly disturbed by the number of people here, not a few of them posters whose writings I enjoy, who do not understand the difference between teaching science in science class and teaching religion in science class.

It is unimportant whether there are unanswered questions in evolutionary theory. It is unimportant if there are disagreements over the meaning of various data. It is unimportant, even, if some elements of the research turn out to be wrong, as some surely have and others surely will. Science has a right, even a duty, to be wrong on the way to finding out what is correct.

And it has a right to do that without the interference of religious doctrines.

I believe in "intelligent design" in the religious sense of believing in G-d as the Creator of the world. That belief does not belong in the teachings of a science class in any way, shape or form.

178 WriterMom  6/27/08 12:57:40 pm reply quote

re: #175 zombie

Here's the link.

179 karmic_inquisitor  6/27/08 12:57:46 pm reply quote

re: #119 wolf

For the first time, I can honestly say that I disagree with a lot of the postings on LGF. I believe in intelligent design, and have since Carl Sagan put it forward in the 70's. Why is it hard to believe in a Creator simply because we understand the technology he used to create us?

Jindal has rising in my eyes, and I would support him as VP candidate.

I am careful to distinguish two things : (1) the "body of work" that is commonly termed Intelligent Design and promoted by the Discovery Institute along with other organizations and (2) the IDEA that a creator could have set all this into motion with a good idea (or even a complete, deterministic understanding) of how it would turn out.

Anyone who has spent a lot of time trying to understand the sciences knows one thing - There is so little that we know. We humans should be humbled by the totality of that which is the Universe. If you believe in a creator (I do) than it is easy to contemplate that such a creator is infinitely more complex and capable than what we can even imagine.

I fall into the #2 camp, and am morally certain that God is not intimidated by our efforts in science. No believer should feel threatened by true science but instead sit in awe and wonder of ALL that there is and that we are so fortunate to live in a time where we aren't ruled by superstition. Instead, we can seek out that enormity that is creation itself, and the mechanics that govern what we observe.

What is the harm in that? And what God would give us a Universe that lies to us?

180 Occasional Reader  6/27/08 12:57:48 pm reply quote

re: #175 zombie

Say what?

Link, please.

"Billyuns and billyuns of Demskis ago..."

181 keithgabryelski  6/27/08 12:58:14 pm reply quote

re: #119 wolf

Why is it hard to believe in a Creator simply because we understand the technology he used to create us?

Jindal has rising in my eyes, and I would support him as VP candidate.

You are propagating a falsehood that abiogenesis is linked to evolution and (by connection) that it refutes the existence of god.

1) evolution does not attempt to describe how life started.
2) believing in evolution does not exclude a belief in god.

The problem is not ID as an idea. It is that it is being presented as science, which IT IS NOT.

It can not be taught in science class because said class would not be teaching science.

Jindal is a problem because he argues dishonestly about these subjects.

182 ContraJihadi  6/27/08 12:58:40 pm reply quote

re: #148 Sharmuta

1) States do not have rights over the rules of science.
2) It's quite a stretch to suggest this bill promotes state's rights when it actually usurps the First Amendment.

Does the bill forbid students from speaking in favor of Darwin's theory? Or does it forbid private schools from teaching it? I am not aware that the First Amendment applies to what states decide that their employees will teach in the public schools--foolish though that might be.

183 Sharmuta  6/27/08 12:58:59 pm reply quote

re: #171 filetandrelease

Perhaps if they use the book "The Mind of God" by Paul Davies for the curriculum it would at least be interesting and not devoid of all merit.

How about if kids did that on their own, and we left science class to the fundamentals of science that the kids will need to know in order to achieve scholarly success in a variety of fields?

184 Occasional Reader  6/27/08 12:59:03 pm reply quote

re: #172 Occasional Reader

PIMF:

By the way, I assume you'd be okay with it if they opted (in a public school) for talking about Allah as the guiding force, right?

185 Charles  6/27/08 12:59:44 pm reply quote

re: #162 Iron Fist

I've pretty much kept my mouth shut about this issue, because I'm of mixed minds on it. But you can't possibly mean that it is OK to teach Al Gorism in science class but not Creationism?

No, and I didn't say that. I said that the political motivations of the bill are clear, from the subjects it covers. But as lawhawk mentions, when you open these kinds of doors the effects can go far beyond just these subjects. This bill ends up with much more government intrusion into science classes, not less, with political groups vying for influence, teachers caught in the middle, and kids losing out the most because they're at the end of a chain of political bottom feeders.

It's just a horrible idea.

186 KingKenrod  6/27/08 12:59:44 pm reply quote

This whole debate seems a waste of time. Our kids are being taught a boatload of Marxist multi-culturalist lies all day long, and we throw a fit over this? At least this law has one positive benefit in that the global warming fanatics will at least be challenged.

187 Ben Hur  6/27/08 12:59:56 pm reply quote

Alright.

Outty like a Saudi.

(G-d my sign-offs suck now.)

188 WriterMom  6/27/08 12:59:59 pm reply quote

re: #184 Occasional Reader

Two words for you:

Private schools.

189 Pastorius  6/27/08 1:00:34 pm reply quote

Louisiana sure does know how to vote in the winners:

David Duke
Ray Nagin
and now, Jindal

190 Adrenalyn  6/27/08 1:00:44 pm reply quote

well, perhaps Obama could use him as his Veep choice
since he is Jimmy Carter II

I still vividly remembering going to public school under Jimmy
when we had creationism taught, or should I say force fed
daily bible reading/quotes
oh yeah, and separate bathrooms for blacks/whites

what if the Muslims wanted your kids to be taught their version of religion, beheading, etc.

and what if the Mormons got to teach
your own planet in the afterlife, as many women as you want (no 72 virgin limit like in Islam)

and what about the Jehovah's
no doctors

way to go Jindal

191 Killian Bundy  6/27/08 1:00:56 pm reply quote

Muslims may not have to undergo sniffer dog checks in UK

Muslim passengers may not be touched by sniffer dogs of the British Transport Police after complaints that the practice is against Islam. According to the religion, dogs are deemed to be spiritually “unclean”.

A Transport Department report has raised the prospect that animals should only touch passengers’ luggage because it is considered “more acceptable”, the Daily Express reported. The ban may restrict the efficiency of sniffer dog squads which have been trained to spot terrorists at railway stations.

On Thursday night, British Transport Police insisted that it would still use sniffer dogs with any passengers regardless of faith, but handlers would remain aware of “cultural sensitivities”.

Well, considering that 99.9% of terrorists are Muslim, that kind of defeats the purpose of having sniffer dogs in the first place, no?

/the police may as well just save time and money and blow up the trains and planes themselves, the way this is going

192 Sharmuta  6/27/08 1:01:06 pm reply quote

re: #182 ContraJihadi

It violates the Establishment Clause.

193 lawhawk  6/27/08 1:01:10 pm reply quote

re: #175 zombie

Sagan commented on the nature of the universe in Cosmos, but I recall it was in terms of discussing the history of cosmology and how some in an earlier time discussed the heavenly engineer (the watchmaker), the nature of the universe and the big bang. It wasn't, if I recall, an endorsement of ID, but rather man's attempt to describe the universe in terms that were understandable.

194 dgax65  6/27/08 1:01:19 pm reply quote

re: #127 zombie

I guess I'm just more pragmatic about our political system. I rarely ever agree with every policy of individual politicians. I realize that you have to take some bad with the overall good. I think the immigration policies of the current president are dangerous, but I have balance that against what a Gore or Kerry administration would have done.

195 BuddyG  6/27/08 1:01:28 pm reply quote

re: #172 Occasional Reader

Oh my Gaia.

No, it isn't. Because that has nothing to do with "science".

By the way, I assume if they opted (in a public school) for talking about Allah as the guiding force, right?

Specific religion's deities needn't/shouldn't be mentioned.
Just include the concept of a creator.

196 debutaunt  6/27/08 1:01:38 pm reply quote

re: #188 WriterMom

Two words for you:

Private schools.

One word:

Vouchers.

197 Catttt  6/27/08 1:01:55 pm reply quote

re: #151 kulhwch

Without chemistry instruction, that'll prove to be a tad difficult to enforce ... but maybe their alchemy will work better ...

}:)     ["Okay, then, we're going to hit your gonads now with the Philosopher's Stone .... this should smart a bit ... "]

This subject always makes me think of William Faulkner, and in particular Sanctuary. Of course, chemical is different from physical castration, but still - evil is evil, and chemical alteration can be reversed or stopped - or fail.

198 jaunte  6/27/08 1:01:56 pm reply quote

re: #90 Ben Hur

Not strictly on-topic, but in regards to the adoption issue. There are a lot of children here in the US who need parents, who are being passed over as insufficiently exotic. [Link: www.capbook.org...]

199 buzzsawmonkey  6/27/08 1:02:12 pm reply quote

re: #188 WriterMom

Two words for you:

Private schools.

Private schools? Corporal punishment? Major payments? Colonel of wisdom? General knowledge?

200 Oh no...Sand People!  6/27/08 1:02:28 pm reply quote

re: #190 Adrenalyn

well, perhaps Obama could use him as his Veep choice
since he is Jimmy Carter II

I still vividly remembering going to public school under Jimmy
when we had creationism taught, or should I say force fed
daily bible reading/quotes
oh yeah, and separate bathrooms for blacks/whites

what if the Muslims wanted your kids to be taught their version of religion, beheading, etc.

and what if the Mormons got to teach
your own planet in the afterlife, as many women as you want (no 72 virgin limit like in Islam)

and what about the Jehovah's
no doctors

way to go Jindal

Just come on out to Brigham Young University and you can partake as well!

/?

201 zombie  6/27/08 1:03:03 pm reply quote

re: #162 Iron Fist

,

I've pretty much kept my mouth shut about this issue, because I'm of mixed minds on it. But you can't possibly mean that it is OK to teach Al Gorism in science class but not Creationism?

Last time I checked, no one was trying to add a "creation" tax to your gas bill, let alone try to cut the economy back to a smaller, more "creationist correct" size. Algorism is taught as gospel, and is a greater threat to our society than any form of creationism.

If this bill tries to address that, it is good.

No, it's the reverse of what you think. From what I understand, the bill allows creationism AND algorism. The worst of both worlds.

202 Occasional Reader  6/27/08 1:03:19 pm reply quote

re: #195 BuddyG

Specific religion's deities needn't/shouldn't be mentioned.
Just include the concept of a creator.

And again; that's got nothing to do with science. Nor will I insist on going to your church/synagogue and teaching an organic chemistry class.

(Not that I'd do a very good job of it)

203 Iron Fist  6/27/08 1:04:02 pm reply quote

re: #177 buzzsawmonkey,

Science classes have always had this problem. Some of my science teachers coming through the system were overtly hostile towards religion, and didn't try to hide that fact in class. Why should they be allowed to teach anti-religion as fact?

That also isn't subject to scientific experimentation. Now they teach global warming as a scientific fact. The "science" is settled. This is a travesty.

I think one reason that you are seeing ID make the inroads that it has (and the people defending it the way they are) is because of how politicized science classes already are.

204 Pastorius  6/27/08 1:04:15 pm reply quote

#5 The Shadow Do,

The Republican Party is no stupider on religious issues than is the Democratic Party. People who are not Christians or Jews, often tend towards Pagan expressions for their religious sensibilities. They are into the healing power of crystals, they're into astrology, "the power of mind", etc.

Just a few weeks ago, some idiot Democrat wrote a piece for a major newspaper claiming that Barack Obama is a special spiritual being called a "Lightworker."

205 KingKenrod  6/27/08 1:04:54 pm reply quote

re: #191 Killian Bundy

Muslims may not have to undergo sniffer dog checks in UK

Well, considering that 99.9% of terrorists are Muslim, that kind of defeats the purpose of having sniffer dogs in the first place, no?

/the police may as well just save time and money and blow up the trains and planes themselves, the way this is going

That Mo was a smart guy. How did he know 1400 years ago that the infidel would be sniffing out his holy bombers with dogs?

206 FloatingRock  6/27/08 1:05:15 pm reply quote

re: #149 loppyd

Put down the crack pipe.

If that's your response I'll assume you don't dispute the percentages, then.

207 Lizard by the Bay  6/27/08 1:05:22 pm reply quote

re: #196 debutaunt

One word:

Vouchers.

I used to be a big supporter of vouchers. But when I think of tax money taken away from public schools and given to radical Islamist madrases I start to rethink my position.

208 ContraJihadi  6/27/08 1:05:23 pm reply quote

re: #192 Sharmuta

It violates the Establishment Clause.

Hmm, perhaps. Will ID under this bill be taught as a doctrine of religious faith or as a hypothesis of empirical science? (Again, irrespective of its merits)

209 Perry  6/27/08 1:05:27 pm reply quote

re: #188 WriterMom

Paying for it since 98, will continue until 2016ish. But I still regard myself as their primary teacher.

210 Occasional Reader  6/27/08 1:05:43 pm reply quote

re: #201 zombie

No, it's the reverse of what you think. From what I understand, the bill allows creationism AND algorism. The worst of both worlds.

Algorisms should stay in mathematics and computer science classes, where they belong!

211 Pastorius  6/27/08 1:05:59 pm reply quote

And adding to my comment at #204, many Liberals are caught up in ethnic nationalism of one form or another. For instance, Jeremiah Wright and his Black Nationalism.

Ethnic Nationalism, as it is based on the mystical properties of blood, is a form of Paganism.

212 Sharmuta  6/27/08 1:06:11 pm reply quote

Phillip Johnson- father of today's ID movement showed his true intent long ago:

Johnson calls his movement "The Wedge." The objective, he said, is to convince people that Darwinism is inherently atheistic, thus shifting the debate from creationism vs. evolution to the existence of God vs. the non-existence of God. From there people are introduced to "the truth" of the Bible and then "the question of sin" and finally "introduced to Jesus."

Is this what you want for your kids in science class? Someone else's ideas of God, Jesus and religion? How is this science at all, and how do we keep other religions (read: islam) from abusing this?

This is not about science- this is about a group of Christian Fundamentalists trying to indoctrinate America's kids with their concept of God.

213 Adrenalyn  6/27/08 1:06:12 pm reply quote

re: #200 Oh no...Sand People!

Just come on out to Brigham Young University and you can partake as well!

/?


well, I was invited to Salt Lake City once
by my brother
to go to his wedding
actually, to stand outside the church
because I am not a card carrying commended worthy wearer of white underwear so I was not allowed in the church

so I stayed home in global warming creating California
where the smoke of a thousand fires is going to reverse global warming, like a nuclear winter
and it's already started happening
what temps would be in the 90's now
are in the 80's since the sun cannot penetrate the smoke

I should post a photo of it, truly astounding
and ashes falling from the sky

214 Honorary Yooper  6/27/08 1:06:27 pm reply quote

re: #182 ContraJihadi

Here's the problem with ID, the teaching in schools, and the First Amendment.

First, the text of the amendment, which so many people seem to forget:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Now, the first part of that, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" is the establishment clause in a nutshell. What does it mean? It means that Congress cannot promote any specific religion or religious practice or belief. ID is a religious belief practiced by a few groups out there, and is being passed off as science when it most certainly is not. YECs have been attempting to have public schools teach six-day creation for quite some time now. In fact, they did succeed in a few places in the early 20th Century by having the teaching of evolution banned by law (see the Scopes Trial as an example). However, it has been the YECs all along attempting to have government promote their literalist religious belief which not all Chirstians share (in fact, only a minority shares those beliefs) and force them on the rest of us.

And it applies to the states as well, via the Fourteenth Amendment. Thus, any attempt by a state legislature to promote a religion or religious belief or practice is also a violation of the establishment clause as stated above.

215 MandyManners  6/27/08 1:06:27 pm reply quote

re: #191 Killian Bundy

Muslims may not have to undergo sniffer dog checks in UK


Well, considering that 99.9% of terrorists are Muslim, that kind of defeats the purpose of having sniffer dogs in the first place, no?

/the police may as well just save time and money and blow up the trains and planes themselves, the way this is going

Can't we train cats to sniff out explosives?

216 lawhawk  6/27/08 1:07:05 pm reply quote

re: #153 lawhawk

To take it further. A teacher could bring in math materials that are the antithesis of mathematics in order to teach. A geography teacher could bring in a Flat Earther to teach geography. A chemistry or physics teacher could bring in Rosie to talk about how steel can't be melted by fire.

Those may be extreme examples, but this law, as written, opens the door to those kinds of activities.

And it can work on any subject - in any direction. It could bring in supplemental materials you agree with or oppose, but therein lies the problem. How exactly are these materials vetted and what is considered acceptable. The law doesn't exactly spell it out, leaving it up to the school districts

Which means, that unless the state is going to entertain a whole new bureaucracy to determine acceptable materials, you're going to end up with a whole bunch of junk in the trunk. And each jurisdiction may come up to completely different results.

The more I think about this law, the more I find that it is a singularly bad example of how to write a law.

217 Sharmuta  6/27/08 1:07:13 pm reply quote

re: #212 Sharmuta

Opps- for got the link-

[Link: findarticles.com...]

218 BuddyG  6/27/08 1:07:30 pm reply quote

re: #202 Occasional Reader

And again; that's got nothing to do with science.


What existed before the Big Bang ?
Why there's something rather than nothing ?

These types of questions are very commonin young minds as they learn science. And there is where the concept of a creator can be introduced (not a specific religion).

219 Occasional Reader  6/27/08 1:07:33 pm reply quote

re: #215 MandyManners

Can't we train cats to sniff out explosives?

Or get some of those truffle-sniffing pigs... ah, wait, same issue...

220 dave in NC  6/27/08 1:07:41 pm reply quote

so happy to see the secularists get pi**ed off about this; they've had it all their way for far too long.

221 Oh no...Sand People!  6/27/08 1:08:04 pm reply quote

re: #213 Adrenalyn

well, I was invited to Salt Lake City once
by my brother
to go to his wedding
actually, to stand outside the church
because I am not a card carrying commended worthy wearer of white underwear so I was not allowed in the church

so I stayed home in global warming creating California
where the smoke of a thousand fires is going to reverse global warming, like a nuclear winter
and it's already started happening
what temps would be in the 90's now
are in the 80's since the sun cannot penetrate the smoke

I should post a photo of it, truly astounding
and ashes falling from the sky

Easily fixable.
/ducks under desk

222 Lawrence Schmerel  6/27/08 1:08:42 pm reply quote

I wonder how much time teachers in elementary and secondary schools spend teaching children about evolution in the first place.

I assume it may be no more than one or two hours over the entire education of a student. (How much of that time is the average student even paying attention?)

I also wonder whether learning about evolution is of much importance to a student's overall education. If a student is particularly interested in it, wouldn't the student do a lot more study of evolution outside of the classroom anyway?

It has never been clear to me how it actually helps the average person to know the history and map of the evolutionary process of all the extinct creatures that preceded us. These skeletons and reconstructions are somewhat interesting, but these creatures don't even exist here in our world and almost certainly they never will again.

I do not support teaching ID or creationism in public schools. I am merely wondering about the importance of this issue.

I say this as a sincere and humble sleestak--a lonely creature, forgotten by the evolutionary process millions of years ago. Yet, I am doing okay.

223 WriterMom  6/27/08 1:08:44 pm reply quote

re: #199 buzzsawmonkey

I'm not sure I understand your comment.

224 Honorary Yooper  6/27/08 1:08:58 pm reply quote

re: #208 ContraJihadi

Hmm, perhaps. Will ID under this bill be taught as a doctrine of religious faith or as a hypothesis of empirical science? (Again, irrespective of its merits)

If taught and challenged as scientific theory, ID falls apart rather quickly as the only basis for it is religious belief.

225 Adrenalyn  6/27/08 1:09:00 pm reply quote

re: #221 Oh no...Sand People!

Easily fixable.
/ducks under desk

no need to duck my friend
I come in peace

226 Kosh's Shadow  6/27/08 1:09:34 pm reply quote

All the biotech companies will be lining up to get Louisina graduates.
/not

227 Occasional Reader  6/27/08 1:09:36 pm reply quote

re: #218 BuddyG

What existed before the Big Bang ?

"A creator" is not a scientific response to that question.

Why there's something rather than nothing ?

That's philosophy (metahphysics) or religion, not science.

And there is where the concept of a creator can be introduced

You just tipped your hand, there, Buddy.

228 Sharmuta  6/27/08 1:09:36 pm reply quote

re: #222 Lawrence Schmerel

I wonder how much time teachers in elementary and secondary schools spend teaching children about evolution in the first place.

Some are just too busy burning crosses on their students' arms to bother.

229 Perry  6/27/08 1:09:36 pm reply quote

re: #215 MandyManners

Can't we train cats to sniff out explosives?


Feline obedience training?

230 goddessoftheclassroom  6/27/08 1:09:53 pm reply quote

re: #203 Iron Fist

,

Science classes have always had this problem. Some of my science teachers coming through the system were overtly hostile towards religion, and didn't try to hide that fact in class. Why should they be allowed to teach anti-religion as fact?

That also isn't subject to scientific experimentation. Now they teach global warming as a scientific fact. The "science" is settled. This is a travesty.

I think one reason that you are seeing ID make the inroads that it has (and the people defending it the way they are) is because of how politicized science classes already are.

A Creator cannot be proved NOR disproved. That's why many people, even students, resist the idea of spontaneous generation and random evolution as a new gospel. The Theory of Evolution is not controversial over all; using it to "prove" that there is not Creator is the problem.

231 Occasional Reader  6/27/08 1:10:14 pm reply quote

re: #223 WriterMom

I'm not sure I understand your comment.

You're looking at it too hard. (It's just a pun.)

232 wolf  6/27/08 1:10:38 pm reply quote

re: #159 Occasional Reader

Huh?

Ever read any Sagan? I'm not talking seeing a movie with Jodie Foster topless, either. I mean actually read his books. If not, you prolly wouldn't understand.

233 dgax65  6/27/08 1:10:47 pm reply quote

re: #169 FloatingRock

I don't support the teaching of ID. I realize that there is no science to support it. I just take issue with the statement that science education has been conducted in an impartial manner. Global warming has become just as much an article of faith to liberals as intelligent design and it is foisted on school children on a daily basis.

235 ec marm  6/27/08 1:10:57 pm reply quote

re: #196 debutaunt

One word:

Vouchers.


You realize what the opposition to vouchers is, more than any other reason? Catholic schools. There is a certain unspoken bigotry toward the Catholic school system that has its roots as far back as the KKK. Nevermind that they educate a student at ONE THIRD of the cost of the public school system.
For that reason alone vouchers will never fly. It's a shame. I have known Jewish parents, Lutheran parents, black parents, just about every race, color and creed that have placed their child into a Catholic school. Because it was a better option than the public school. But the parents have to foot the entire bill out of their own pockets.

236 Sharmuta  6/27/08 1:11:11 pm reply quote

re: #208 ContraJihadi

Please read Yooper's comments (which I'm sure you are). He summed it up perfectly. They'd like to teach it as science, but it can't- it fails the scientific method.

237 WriterMom  6/27/08 1:11:13 pm reply quote

re: #231 Occasional Reader

Is that really a pun, or are you just happy to see me?

238 Kosh's Shadow  6/27/08 1:11:36 pm reply quote

re: #190 Adrenalyn

well, perhaps Obama could use him as his Veep choice
since he is Jimmy Carter II

I still vividly remembering going to public school under Jimmy
when we had creationism taught, or should I say force fed
daily bible reading/quotes
oh yeah, and separate bathrooms for blacks/whites

what if the Muslims wanted your kids to be taught their version of religion, beheading, etc.

and what if the Mormons got to teach
your own planet in the afterlife, as many women as you want (no 72 virgin limit like in Islam)

and what about the Jehovah's
no doctors

way to go Jindal

If we want to talk about the afterlife, the Pastafarians have one involving a beer volcano and a stripper factory.

239 debutaunt  6/27/08 1:11:40 pm reply quote

re: #207 Lizard by the Bay

I used to be a big supporter of vouchers. But when I think of tax money taken away from public schools and given to radical Islamist madrases I start to rethink my position.

I think competition will create a rising tide.

240 Lawrence Schmerel  6/27/08 1:11:56 pm reply quote

re: #228 Sharmuta

I think you are probably right.

Teachers probably spend more time mistreating students that teaching evolution.

241 ContraJihadi  6/27/08 1:12:00 pm reply quote

re: #214 Honorary Yooper

Alright, if indeed ID is a religious doctrine, then I agree that it may not be taught in public schools.

242 noraono  6/27/08 1:12:11 pm reply quote

re: #12 zombie

If Louisiana wants to continue their downward spiral into third-world status, than I guess that's their choice.

that's a pretty... ignorant statement. Not even sure what the implication is- that religious people are caveman- like idiots who couldn't create an intelligent society? That teaching a religious concept in science class will suddenly ruin millions of little scientist's minds?

I don't believe that ID needs to be taught in school - anyone who is interested enough in science will go on to make their own choices. I hold degrees in mechanical engineering and math, and i believe in creation- my belief got stronger as i learned more about the way the earth moves and works.

BUT, here's the deal. I can't believe that all the non-believer or anti-ID people here honestly believe that what gets taught in grades 1-12 is even remotely science. You learn NOTHING about evolution or what the theory is. NOTHING. Science classes are a complete joke in our schools- if you want to get upset about something get off your Christians- are- idiots high horse and work on fixing the real problems in our schools.

243 WriterMom  6/27/08 1:12:16 pm reply quote

re: #235 ec marm

Hi ecmarm...I sent you a note.

244 keithgabryelski  6/27/08 1:12:56 pm reply quote

re: #167 BuddyG

Science class, among other things, talks about our Universe, the Big Bang, and so forth. That's a relevant context for mention of a creator, guiding force.

No. The big bang is a scientific theory -- god making things is faith.

Scientific theories belong in science class. There is no connection to "faith" and "science".

See definitions for science and faith

science:
systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.

faith:
belief that is not based on proof

They are diametrically opposed and because of that "faith" has no connection to science and should not be conflated with it by bringing it into science class.

Hey kids, today in Math class I'd like to teach you how to mow a lawn because it is only fair that some people don't like mathematics (or find it difficult) so we should go over other ways you can apply yourself later in life.

245 Occasional Reader  6/27/08 1:13:20 pm reply quote

re: #232 wolf

Ever read any Sagan? I'm not talking seeing a movie with Jodie Foster topless, either. I mean actually read his books. If not, you prolly wouldn't understand.

Yes, I've read Sagan. I love your "you wouldn't understand" dodge. Really? I wouldn't understand the writings of a popularizer of science? (I mean, we're not talking string theory here.) Okay, 'splain it to me, wolf. And/or, give us a link showing that Sagan seriously promoted ID theory.

246 filetandrelease  6/27/08 1:13:33 pm reply quote

re: #20 Boondock St. Bender

Well,...it is the south and louisiana....
(ducks and runs)

Bigot.

247 Tigger2005  6/27/08 1:14:30 pm reply quote

So forcing teachers to teach fake science, and forcing children to learn fake science, and pretending it's "real" science, will somehow make us a more moral nation. Same with making movies filled with lies and deception, and "quote-mining" writings from evolution-supporting biologists to make it sound like they have doubts about evolution.

248 ec marm  6/27/08 1:14:31 pm reply quote

re: #243 WriterMom
Got it. Piece of cake. I already have something very similar to it all ready, believe it or not.

249 Psaturn  6/27/08 1:14:38 pm reply quote

re: #45 zombie

I agree. But two wrongs don't make a right.

We need to get rid of ALL political hoaxery disguised as science. If we just end up with two opposing sides each jousting to foist their particular lie on our kids, then it's a lose-lose situation.

I fight against leftist influence on schools just as much I do against creationism in the schools.


I agree with you Zombie that we should get politics out of school there.

If we could teach children the basics, reading, math, history (NEUTRAL! not revised!), pass some basic accepted societal values, teach critical thinking...I think that would be great right there.

250 ContraJihadi  6/27/08 1:14:48 pm reply quote

re: #236 Sharmuta

Understood, Sharmuta. It just takes me a little time to bounce between threads. I agree that if ID is a religious doctrine, it falls under the rebuke of the Establishment Clause.

251 twons  6/27/08 1:14:48 pm reply quote

re: #100 Dianna

No. I'm not cruel!

It's bad enough that my mom saddled me with two 'n's.

What do you mean saddled! I'm not that much of a cross to bear...

Besides, I hardly even know you!

252 zombie  6/27/08 1:15:10 pm reply quote

re: #234 WriterMom

OT: Better Mailbox Than Charles or Zombie?

Wow! Pat Condell's mail really is worse than mine. I didn't think that was possible!

253 NJDhockeyfan  6/27/08 1:15:14 pm reply quote

re: #215 MandyManners

Can't we train cats to sniff out explosives?

Or pigs?

254 Yankee Division Son  6/27/08 1:15:26 pm reply quote

Way OT..

BBC reports that Al-Qaeda's emir of Mosul is kaput.. (I posted this earlier in the week)

Key Iraqi al-Qaeda figure 'dead'

What i find interesting is how the BBC "news" puts dead in quotes..

255 tgibson1962  6/27/08 1:16:06 pm reply quote

"Evolving standards of decency must embrace and express respect for the dignity of the person, and the punishment of criminals must conform to that rule.” - Justice Anthony Kennedy

Ideas do have consequences. Evolution has slipped its banks as a scientific theory and become a unifying view of life for many; in short, it has become a de facto religion.

BTW, where do I direct the little girl so she can thank Justice Kennedy's biology teachers?

256 lawhawk  6/27/08 1:16:18 pm reply quote

re: #254 Yankee Division Son

He's dead in the Monty Python parrot sense...

257 goddessoftheclassroom  6/27/08 1:16:30 pm reply quote

re: #240 Lawrence Schmerel

I think you are probably right.

Teachers probably spend more time mistreating students that teaching evolution.

Please tell me you forgot the sarc tag.

258 debutaunt  6/27/08 1:16:45 pm reply quote

re: #235 ec marm

You realize what the opposition to vouchers is, more than any other reason? Catholic schools. There is a certain unspoken bigotry toward the Catholic school system that has its roots as far back as the KKK. Nevermind that they educate a student at ONE THIRD of the cost of the public school system.
For that reason alone vouchers will never fly. It's a shame. I have known Jewish parents, Lutheran parents, black parents, just about every race, color and creed that have placed their child into a Catholic school. Because it was a better option than the public school. But the parents have to foot the entire bill out of their own pockets.

It's a shame that we are forced to pay for crappy public schools.

259 Occasional Reader  6/27/08 1:17:01 pm reply quote

re: #252 zombie

Wow! Pat Condell's mail really is worse than mine. I didn't think that was possible!

I'll send you some hair-curling death threats if it'll make you feel better...

260 buzzsawmonkey  6/27/08 1:17:37 pm reply quote

re: #203 Iron Fist

,

Science classes have always had this problem. Some of my science teachers coming through the system were overtly hostile towards religion, and didn't try to hide that fact in class. Why should they be allowed to teach anti-religion as fact?

That also isn't subject to scientific experimentation. Now they teach global warming as a scientific fact. The "science" is settled. This is a travesty.

I think one reason that you are seeing ID make the inroads that it has (and the people defending it the way they are) is because of how politicized science classes already are.

Perhaps I was fortunate. None of my science classes in grade school, high school, or college made the slightest mention of religion in any way, shape or form.

I do, however, vividly remember attempting to explain something related to evolution in eighth-grade science class, and doing so badly, in terms of acquired characteristics. The teacher, with withering scorn, said dismissively, "That's Lamarckian thinking!" and proceeded, none too gently, to set me right.

That was a long time ago, and I am sure that the quality of teachers has declined since then. I am sure, too, that there is an immense amount of money behind freebie materials promoting such frauds as global warming and "green" thinking in the schools--and that the schools, always willing to take freebies to stretch their budgets, are all too happy to fall in line with the agenda-driven materials offered. Not to mention school boards which mirror their communities, whether pro-moonbat beliefs or pro-teaching religion where it does not belong.

What bothers me is that this is a very intelligent and aware discussion community. It does not surprise me that they see through the fraud of global warming or "green" indoctrination, and it would not surprise me if a goodly number of people here are vigilant against the promulgation of these ideologies, whether they have children in the public education system or a private system, or even if they do not have children but are concerned about what their taxes are paying for in the local education district. It is all the more distressing, therefore, that so many clearly do not understand that there is a basic difference between contesting the bad science of global warming on scientific terms, and interjecting non-science into science teaching, which is what ID or creationism is.

Frankly, interjecting non-science into science teaching makes teaching bad science such as global warming all the easier, because it opens the door more widely to agenda-driven instruction.

261 filetandrelease  6/27/08 1:17:41 pm reply quote

re: #254 Yankee Division Son

He was shot dead by American troops during a raid on a building in Mosul.


Unintended consequences of a recent SCOTUS ruling?

262 Boondock St. Bender  6/27/08 1:17:51 pm reply quote

re: #127 zombie

Hear!hear!

263 BuddyG  6/27/08 1:18:04 pm reply quote

re: #227 Occasional Reader

You just tipped your hand, there, Buddy.

The word philosophy is of Ancient Greek origin meaning "love of knowledge". Philisophical questions helped mankind acquire much of our scientific knowledge.

Is the philosophical concept of a creator really so anathema to you?

264 NJDhockeyfan  6/27/08 1:18:20 pm reply quote

It's Kosher: Bomb-sniffing pigs will help protect settlements

265 ContraJihadi  6/27/08 1:18:33 pm reply quote

re: #63 Catttt

Too bad biology isn't more like chemistry. If you mix subjectivity into chemistry, it can blow up in your face.

Good observation. One of the difficulties with biology is that it does not achieve the mathematical certainty of physics or chemistry.

266 loppyd  6/27/08 1:18:34 pm reply quote

re: #258 debutaunt

It's a shame that we are forced to pay for crappy public schools.

Not all public schools are crappy.

Not all private schools are excellent, either.

267 Lizard by the Bay  6/27/08 1:18:48 pm reply quote

re: #242 noraono

that's a pretty... ignorant statement. Not even sure what the implication is- that religious people are caveman- like idiots who couldn't create an intelligent society? That teaching a religious concept in science class will suddenly ruin millions of little scientist's minds?

Religion can benefit society only when it's not getting in the way of it. It's the difference between the dark ages (when the church burned scientists for daring to claim the Earth was round) and the Renaissance. ID is Inherit the Wind in reverse.

268 Killgore Trout  6/27/08 1:18:54 pm reply quote

re: #234 WriterMom

We're long overdue for a new rant from Pat Condell.

269 Honorary Yooper  6/27/08 1:19:03 pm reply quote

re: #255 tgibson1962

"Evolving standards of decency must embrace and express respect for the dignity of the person, and the punishment of criminals must conform to that rule.” - Justice Anthony Kennedy

Ideas do have consequences. Evolution has slipped its banks as a scientific theory and become a unifying view of life for many; in short, it has become a de facto religion.

BTW, where do I direct the little girl so she can thank Justice Kennedy's biology teachers?

I'd like to know how you made the jump from Justice Kennedy's comment (which has nothing to do with science what-so-ever) to evolution being a unifying view for "many"?

You do realise that Justice Kennedy is not using the term "evolve" in the scientific sense there, or are you being deliberately dishonest?

270 ec marm  6/27/08 1:19:04 pm reply quote

The "Big Bang" is a perfect example of how the religious folks feel on this issue. Is it science? No, it is not much more than an idea. Is it a possible concept of how the universe began? Yes. Worthy of discussion in a science class? Yes.
How many religious folks are upset and seeking to change the curriculum so that the "Big Bang" is not presented in class? Zero?

271 Catttt  6/27/08 1:19:20 pm reply quote

re: #143 FloatingRock

I disagree with you, but you explained why you said what you said. I personally have two issues with your logic (without considering the issue itself):

*One issue, in and of itself, should not preclude the safety of our country - even for just four years. Fortunately for me, my big issues tend to fall in line with the security issue, but if they didn't, I'd have a great deal of trouble pulling the lever for a socialist Chicago machine creep who might p**s away our country's security.

*We are talking about the veep (and I realize that he could, yes, become President).

272 Bogeyfre  6/27/08 1:19:28 pm reply quote

re: #242 noraono

Can I get an Amen?

273 Catttt  6/27/08 1:20:16 pm reply quote

re: #215 MandyManners

Can't we train cats to sniff out explosives?

Try rubbing raw liver on the explosives.

274 formercorpsman  6/27/08 1:20:28 pm reply quote

re: #226 Kosh's Shadow

Actually, I don't think the biotech companies are recruiting from the high school level.

275 buzzsawmonkey  6/27/08 1:20:38 pm reply quote

re: #223 WriterMom

I'm not sure I understand your comment.

Just wordplay. Military ranks and aspects of private schools.

276 Sharmuta  6/27/08 1:20:41 pm reply quote

re: #270 ec marm

The "Big Bang" is a perfect example of how the religious folks feel on this issue. Is it science? No, it is not much more than an idea. Is it a possible concept of how the universe began? Yes. Worthy of discussion in a science class? Yes.
How many religious folks are upset and seeking to change the curriculum so that the "Big Bang" is not presented in class? Zero?

That's just it- the only aspect of science coming under attack is evolution.

277 Tigger2005  6/27/08 1:20:42 pm reply quote

If I were a science teacher, I just couldn't do this. I couldn't lie to children. Fortunately there are probably openings for science teachers in other states. Louisiana is going to see quite a drain of whatever brains it has left down there...what scientists are going to want their kids to go to public schools that teach this junk? It will probably also have trouble attracting companies in fields like bioengineering and medicine.

278 goddessoftheclassroom  6/27/08 1:21:05 pm reply quote

re: #266 loppyd

Not all public schools are crappy.

Not all private schools are excellent, either.

Thank you for saying that.

279 oceansidecon  6/27/08 1:21:11 pm reply quote

ID-Creationists are the 9/11 truthers of the right.

280 wolfie  6/27/08 1:21:28 pm reply quote

re: #203 Iron Fist

,

Science classes have always had this problem. Some of my science teachers coming through the system were overtly hostile towards religion, and didn't try to hide that fact in class. Why should they be allowed to teach anti-religion as fact?

That also isn't subject to scientific experimentation. Now they teach global warming as a scientific fact. The "science" is settled. This is a travesty.

I think one reason that you are seeing ID make the inroads that it has (and the people defending it the way they are) is because of how politicized science classes already are.

You have made an excellent point.

The solution, IMO, is not to further politicize science classes, but to try to unpoliticize them as much as possible.

One way to further this goal is to "get back to basics." We need to be teaching basic science and the scientific method to public school kids and cut down on all the fluff. That would be a start.

281 debutaunt  6/27/08 1:21:32 pm reply quote

re: #266 loppyd

Not all public schools are crappy.

Not all private schools are excellent, either.

I agree with you. I do think that vouchers and a choice about schools would improve public and private schools. Let them compete so I can choose the better school.

282 Oh no...Sand People!  6/27/08 1:22:14 pm reply quote

Not that this changes 'evolution', but out of curiosity, isn't it true that Darwin had someone visit him before he died and he wanted the person to read stories about Jesus out of the Bible and sing hymns?

Is this correct?

283 loppyd  6/27/08 1:22:36 pm reply quote

re: #278 goddessoftheclassroom

Thank you for saying that.

You are welcome.

And thank you for doing what must feel like a thankless job at times.

284 Lizard by the Bay  6/27/08 1:22:49 pm reply quote

re: #270 ec marm

The "Big Bang" is a perfect example of how the religious folks feel on this issue. Is it science? No, it is not much more than an idea. Is it a possible concept of how the universe began? Yes. Worthy of discussion in a science class? Yes.

The big bang theory has some subjective scientific support. We use the Doppler effect to measure how stars move in the universe, and it shows a universe ever-expanding away from a nearly central point. Run that tape in reverse a few trillion years and... viola! Big bang theory. ID has no such evidence.

Nice try, though.

285 loppyd  6/27/08 1:23:03 pm reply quote

re: #281 debutaunt

I agree with you. I do think that vouchers and a choice about schools would improve public and private schools. Let them compete so I can choose the better school.

I am 100% in favor of vouchers.

286 WriterMom  6/27/08 1:23:07 pm reply quote

re: #275 buzzsawmonkey

Gotcha. It's late afternoon on Friday and I'm faaaaaaading.

287 Attaboid  6/27/08 1:23:39 pm reply quote

I just flew in on Pterodactyl Airways. Drinks are on me.

288 Catttt  6/27/08 1:23:45 pm reply quote

re: #265 ContraJihadi

Good observation. One of the difficulties with biology is that it does not achieve the mathematical certainty of physics or chemistry.

I think that's why I enjoyed physics and chemistry and disliked biology. The only fun parts in biology were the experiments and watching cells divide. Plus, my biology teacher was a slut who spent most of her time trying to get male teachers into the horizontal mode.

289 Boondock St. Bender  6/27/08 1:23:50 pm reply quote

I think we too often fall into the habit of debateing whether id or evolution are correct,instead of the real crux of the biscuit which is whether id should be taught in a science classroom.I believe charles point (and why he is posting these threads)is that there are disingenuous types who wish to use the id issue as a cats paw for re-introducing religion into public schools.

290 Occasional Reader  6/27/08 1:24:19 pm reply quote

re: #275 buzzsawmonkey

Just wordplay. Military ranks and aspects of private schools.

Well, you're a specialist in wordplay, aren't you. (Nevertheless, some of your posts contain a colonel of truth.)

291 debutaunt  6/27/08 1:24:33 pm reply quote

re: #278 goddessoftheclassroom

Thank you for saying that.

I was lucky enought to attend excellent public schools. Now I see large problems in many public schools.

292 Perry  6/27/08 1:24:38 pm reply quote

re: #283 loppyd

You are welcome.

And thank you for doing what must feel like a thankless job at times.

YESYESYES.

293 Catttt  6/27/08 1:24:48 pm reply quote

re: #279 oceansidecon

ID-Creationists are the 9/11 truthers of the right.

Truthers of the right - wasn't that a big Sinatra hit? /

294 Sharmuta  6/27/08 1:25:05 pm reply quote

re: #282 Oh no...Sand People!

If you're speaking of Lady Hope- it's a myth.

295 ec marm  6/27/08 1:25:28 pm reply quote

re: #258 debutaunt

It's a shame that we are forced to pay for crappy public schools.


Even worse is the situation of the parent that has to pay for both the crappy public school and private school. I did it for six years for my children. While I listened to friends who were public school teachers bitch and moan about the possibility that vouchers might be enacted. They simply refused to accept the possibility that there was something inherently unfair about my having to pay their salary, pay for their building, pay for textbooks my children would never use, and the thousand other expenses my children did not cause by not being there. We ended up chucking them as friends.

296 WriterMom  6/27/08 1:25:39 pm reply quote

re: #278 goddessoftheclassroom

Every class depends on having a good teacher at the helm. Of course this can happen in public or private schools. My point was only that if you have certain values that you want to pass along as a parent, or a world view it's easier in private schools in my experience. And I had some excellent teachers in both systems. I still remember all of their names and the incredible lessons they taught in and out of the classroom. So-it may be a thankless job, but THANKS!

297 Oh no...Sand People!  6/27/08 1:25:43 pm reply quote

re: #294 Sharmuta

If you're speaking of Lady Hope- it's a myth.

I don't know who it was...just a rumor I heard. That's why I am asking for validation/invalidation.

Fair enough.

298 wolfie  6/27/08 1:26:04 pm reply quote

re: #207 Lizard by the Bay

I used to be a big supporter of vouchers. But when I think of tax money taken away from public schools and given to radical Islamist madrases I start to rethink my position.

Have you started to rethink your position about freedom in general?

Tax money is not "taken away from public schools." The schools, believe it or not, have no money of their own. Tax money is taken from.....and ONLY taken from.......tax payers.

299 Iron Fist  6/27/08 1:26:07 pm reply quote

re: #270 ec marm,

That is exactly what I've been trying to say, but you are more succinct. A lot of what is taught in science class is theory. Unfortunately a lot of it is taught as fact. If Algorism is given a place at the table, why not Creationism? As far as the Big Bang theory goes, well, God said let there be light.

No one knows, nor can, realistically, claim to know what came before that.

300 Salamantis  6/27/08 1:26:08 pm reply quote

Here are two of the last books that Carl Sagan wrote before he died:

The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
[Link: www.amazon.com...]

The Varieties of Scientific Experience: A Personal View of the Search for God

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

They do not appear to me to be very anti-science; nor do they appear to me to be very fond of creationism/intelligent design.

301 BuddyG  6/27/08 1:26:57 pm reply quote

re: #284 Lizard by the Bay

The big bang theory... Nice try, though.


The Big Bang theory was proposed by a Catholic priest
Sweet irony.

Goes to show, that science & sprituality can co-exist.
They're not mutually exclusive.

302 WriterMom  6/27/08 1:27:14 pm reply quote

re: #295 ec marm

Here in Ontario taxpayers pay for TWO public systems-Catholic and regular. So, my after tax dollars go to private school and two school boards that I don't send my children to.

303 Sharmuta  6/27/08 1:27:16 pm reply quote

More on Lady Hope.

The Lady Hope Story is generally recognised, even by many Creationists, to be false — or at least unverifiable — and if true, probably exaggerated. The story remains a popular urban legend, even though it stands in sharp contrast to Darwin's published and known views about Christianity.

304 Hillbilly Mike  6/27/08 1:27:20 pm reply quote

Screw the ACLU! If we are descended from apes, then why are there still apes?

305 NJDhockeyfan  6/27/08 1:27:24 pm reply quote

Madison Wisconsin wants to ban drive-throughs to save the planet.

306 Killgore Trout  6/27/08 1:27:31 pm reply quote

Jindal object of latest recall petition

Louisiana's Secretary of State's Office says a recall petition has been filed against Governor Bobby Jindal.

Jindal has been the focus of sharp criticism for his refusal to veto a bill doubling legislators' base pay. Four lawmakers, including House Speaker Jim Tucker, are also targets of recall efforts.

The Secretary of State's news release Friday did not include the name of the chaiman of the recall effort. Forcing a recall election against Jindal will be a tough task. It would require verifiable signatures from well over 900,000 registered Louisiana voters.

307 keithgabryelski  6/27/08 1:27:49 pm reply quote

re: #276 Sharmuta

That's just it- the only aspect of science coming under attack is evolution.

no. ID attacks "science" at its base. Its advocates claim for a different definition of "science" something that is not based on the scientific method.

They are, by attempting to define ID as science, define science as "any idea someone comes up with".

There is no scientific evidence for ID or put in a better way "there is no claim made by a theory of ID that can be disproved". This makes it, most certainly, NOT science.

308 buzzsawmonkey  6/27/08 1:28:06 pm reply quote

re: #293 Catttt

Truthers of the right - wasn't that a big Sinatra hit? /

Truthers of the right, targeting science
With ideology, they seek compliance
Hoping through all schools
They'll quickly spread their view...


That one?

309 Dianna  6/27/08 1:28:44 pm reply quote

re: #220 dave in NC

If you think dumbing down education is a good thing, why are you here?

310 Occasional Reader  6/27/08 1:28:51 pm reply quote

re: #293 Catttt

Truthers of the right - wasn't that a big Sinatra hit? /

Truthers on the right
quote-mining Demski
Throwing powder in our eyes
irreducible complexity
They'll be stomping off
before the debate is through...

311 Catttt  6/27/08 1:28:51 pm reply quote

I know this is an important issue, but I'm still thinking about fried food.

My tummy is growling.

312 Oh no...Sand People!  6/27/08 1:28:52 pm reply quote

re: #305 NJDhockeyfan

Madison Wisconsin wants to ban drive-throughs to save the planet.

aaaaAAAAAaaaaagGGGGgggggHHHH!

(pulls out hair...bangs head on desk)

313 Lizard by the Bay  6/27/08 1:28:59 pm reply quote

re: #298 wolfie

Tax money is not "taken away from public schools." The schools, believe it or not, have no money of their own. Tax money is taken from.....and ONLY taken from.......tax payers.

Thank you. That only reinforces my point. I most certainly don't want my money being given to radical Islamist madrases, and vouchers, as you pointed out, would be funded with my money.

314 ec marm  6/27/08 1:29:11 pm reply quote

re: #284 Lizard by the Bay

The big bang theory has some subjective scientific support. We use the Doppler effect to measure how stars move in the universe, and it shows a universe ever-expanding away from a nearly central point. Run that tape in reverse a few trillion years and... viola! Big bang theory. ID has no such evidence.

Nice try, though.


You are looking at the universe 5 billion years ago at the speed of light. So what will have happened when you notice that the universe has begun to contract? Too late, right?
Do you drive down the street looking in the rear view mirror for guidance? Big Bang is hardly science.

315 Killgore Trout  6/27/08 1:29:47 pm reply quote

The bill from Bogalusa

Either Bobby Jindal is toast... or we all are.

One bizarre item in that story is that the reporter contacted the Discovery Institute, who quickly disavowed any association with the bill, saying that they did not "directly" support it and that they certainly wouldn't support any attempt to insert religion into the schools. Like everything that comes out of the DI, they are lying reflexively. Barbara Forrest has an excellent overview of the context and history of the bill — the bill has the DI's frantic, fervid paws all over it.

I do think we need to call this the Bogalusa Bill, after the district that the sponsor, Ben Nevers (a creationist and a democrat, for shame!), comes from.

316 Sharmuta  6/27/08 1:29:59 pm reply quote

re: #307 keithgabryelski

Good point, although I stand by my larger meaning. Creationists are not attacking Relativity or chemistry. I fully understand what your point is.

317 debutaunt  6/27/08 1:30:23 pm reply quote

re: #313 Lizard by the Bay

Thank you. That only reinforces my point. I most certainly don't want my money being given to radical Islamist madrases, and vouchers, as you pointed out, would be funded with my money.

I believe you would pay for your own vouchers.

318 Occasional Reader  6/27/08 1:30:30 pm reply quote

Okay, now either buzzsaw or I have to be voted off. Oh, the tension!

319 ContraJihadi  6/27/08 1:30:41 pm reply quote

re: #288 Catttt

I must admit that I found high school biology to be more fun. A friend and I went out collecting frogs for dissection, and I enjoyed making drawing of those and the other things we dissected, like worms. I also enjoyed the schemes of categorization--families, order, classes, etc.

But there might have been a romantic element. I was not yet sexually awakened, but there was a young woman in the class whom I worshiped in a kind of Dante-Beatrice sort of way, so the class has a special charm.

All that however, does not compensate for the fact that biology is less precise than physics and chemistry and so offers more scope for chicanery.

320 Catttt  6/27/08 1:31:02 pm reply quote

re: #308 buzzsawmonkey

Truthers of the right, targeting science
With ideology, they seek compliance
Hoping through all schools
They'll quickly spread their view...


That one?

Yes! I knew you'd remember it. :D

321 ec marm  6/27/08 1:31:06 pm reply quote

re: #318 Occasional Reader

Okay, now either buzzsaw or I have to be voted off. Oh, the tension!


Bring me your torch!

322 Tigger2005  6/27/08 1:31:17 pm reply quote

re: #282 Oh no...Sand People!

Not that this changes 'evolution', but out of curiosity, isn't it true that Darwin had someone visit him before he died and he wanted the person to read stories about Jesus out of the Bible and sing hymns?

Is this correct?

No, it's a myth that won't die.

But, even if true, it would say nothing about evolution. Evolution-supporting biologist Ken Miller is a Catholic who believes that Jesus died for his salvation. I'm sure he will be given last rites when his time comes.

323 Lizard by the Bay  6/27/08 1:31:27 pm reply quote

re: #314 ec marm

Big Bang is hardly science.

"Hardly" still beats "not at all" by a country mile. ID is not at all science. Period.

324 Cygnus  6/27/08 1:31:46 pm reply quote

re: #187 Ben Hur

Alright.

Outty like a Saudi.

(G-d my sign-offs suck now.)

How about:

I gotta make like s**t and hit the trail.
I gotta make like a bird and get the flock out of here.

325 Occasional Reader  6/27/08 1:31:59 pm reply quote

re: #321 ec marm

Bring me your torch!

But it wasn't a torch song!

326 Dianna  6/27/08 1:32:17 pm reply quote

re: #230 goddessoftheclassroom

I've never had a teacher try to "prove" or "disprove" the existence of a deity.

327 wolf  6/27/08 1:32:49 pm reply quote

re: #245 Occasional Reader

Yes, I've read Sagan. I love your "you wouldn't understand" dodge. Really? I wouldn't understand the writings of a popularizer of science? (I mean, we're not talking string theory here.) Okay, 'splain it to me, wolf. And/or, give us a link showing that Sagan seriously promoted ID theory.

First, read Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors. It addresses many of the similarities between humans and animals. Although the book, on the face, seems to be a review of Darwinism, it actually implied that there was/is a Creator.

Sagan always couched these issue subtly. Although he believed in a Creator/Higher Being, he never advocated it openly. Even the book Contact is full of innuendo about a Creator. If you read Cosmos, not watched the TV show, you would see that he implies again that there was a Creator.

If you are old enough to remember Sagan, then you would not be questioning the way he tried to combine Creationism with Evolution. He had to walk a tight line with the science community that would brand him a heretic if he openly advocated a Creator.

I am not real familiar with the ID movement that everyone talks about, but I believe in a Creator that used to materials available to create mankind. This belief was the direct result of my exposure to Sagan's works. He made it clear that because we are starting to understand how God created, we should not diminish His role.

Why is it easier for people to believe in UFO's than God? Do you recall Chariots of the Gods? I believe, by any definition, that God is an alien. It is very possible that an vastly superior alien race created mankind through DNA manipulation. It is as reasonable as anything else I have heard. That reconciles Creationism and evolution for me. It is a rather simplistic view of my beliefs, but there it is.

Why, people ask, would aliens do such a thing? I don't know, but maybe it has something to do with the next plane of existence. Unless you are willing to dismiss the existence of the human soul.

And in regard to Einstein and Newton, Einstein did not supplant Newton. Einstein's greatest ideas led to quantum physics. Newton is as relevant today as he was 400 years ago. Science since has only refined Newton. It is funny that Einstein's greatest discovery was that the universe is expanding and had a beginning. Something he called his greatest mistake. Why? Because it supported the idea of a Creation event.

'Course, we all know that he was right after all, even if he denounced his own mathematics.

328 WriterMom  6/27/08 1:32:51 pm reply quote

re: #324 Cygnus

How about like it or lump it, take it the dump and dump it?

329 Lizard by the Bay  6/27/08 1:32:59 pm reply quote

re: #317 debutaunt

I believe you would pay for your own vouchers.

What about the segment of the population that pay no income tax (apart from payroll taxes)? They still get vouchers under every plan I've seen. The money comes from someone.

330 Sharmuta  6/27/08 1:33:09 pm reply quote

re: #297 Oh no...Sand People!

The driving force behind Darwin's agnosticism wasn't his own theory, it was the death of his young daughter. Obviously, there are a lot of misinformation about Darwin out there, but if you'd like to learn more, I recommend this book:

Saving Darwin: How to Be a Christian and Believe in Evolution

It's an easy read, and very engaging.

331 Dianna  6/27/08 1:33:15 pm reply quote

re: #232 wolf

Link? Please?

332 WriterMom  6/27/08 1:33:52 pm reply quote

re: #325 Occasional Reader

OY VEY.

Baaaad.

333 NJDhockeyfan  6/27/08 1:35:37 pm reply quote

re: #312 Oh no...Sand People!

aaaaAAAAAaaaaagGGGGgggggHHHH!

(pulls out hair...bangs head on desk)

The first comment is great:

Michael says:

Does that mean that they should ban stoplights as well, since cars are idling there?

heh.

334 Oh no...Sand People!  6/27/08 1:36:06 pm reply quote

re: #330 Sharmuta

The driving force behind Darwin's agnosticism wasn't his own theory, it was the death of his young daughter. Obviously, there are a lot of misinformation about Darwin out there, but if you'd like to learn more, I recommend this book:

Saving Darwin: How to Be a Christian and Believe in Evolution

It's an easy read, and very engaging.


Though I have had enough of Darwin to choke a camel the book looks interesting. Might have to give it a peek.

Thanks.

335 Sharmuta  6/27/08 1:36:33 pm reply quote
336 Spider Mensch  6/27/08 1:37:03 pm reply quote

re: #327 wolf


"if your old enough to remember Sagan..."

what is this MySpace.com...I bet everyone here is old enough...

337 Sharmuta  6/27/08 1:37:39 pm reply quote

re: #334 Oh no...Sand People!

I was disappointed to reach the end- I enjoyed it that much.

338 Catttt  6/27/08 1:37:49 pm reply quote

re: #319 ContraJihadi

Ahh, frogs and romance. Reminds me of the biology class scene in E.T. - the Extra-Terrestrial, where Elliott lets the frogs go then kisses the cute girl.

339 ploome hineni  6/27/08 1:38:00 pm reply quote
How to Be a Christian and Believe in Evolution

?

same way you are a Chistian and belive in birth control and abortion

no?

340 Honorary Yooper  6/27/08 1:38:13 pm reply quote

re: #299 Iron Fist

OK, I think we need to clear up the difference between scientific theory and how the term theory is used in the vernacular.

In the vernacualr, theory often means conjecture or a hunch. However, for science, the term theory is much more rigidly defined. A scientific theory is a model that is testable and repeatable. It is logically self-consistent. For example, there is a Theory of Gravity that describes how gravity (and observed phenonemon like evolution) works.

Then we have hypotheses. A hypothesis is a suggested explanation for an observed event. It may also be tested, and is not the same as a theory. For example, there can be many hypotheses regarding how gravity works. If valid, they may become part of the theory.

Next we have scientific laws. The laws are empirical in content, and can also be tested. For example, we have a Law of Gravity that basically says that things fall down.

341 Occasional Reader  6/27/08 1:38:25 pm reply quote

re: #327 wolf

If you are old enough to remember Sagan, then you would not be questioning the way he tried to combine Creationism with Evolution

Bollocks. I am old enough to remember Sagan, and yes, I read Cosmos. You are conflating his leaving the door open for religion, with his advocating creationism. Those are two different things.

Actually, in Cosmos, he wrote: "Evolution is a fact, not a theory".

342 karmic_inquisitor  6/27/08 1:38:44 pm reply quote

re: #304 Hillbilly Mike

Screw the ACLU! If we are descended from apes, then why are there still apes?

Because we didn't descend from apes. The "descend from apes" is a phrase coined by creationists to mis-state evolution and thereby get people to reject it.

Apparently it was effective.

343 noraono  6/27/08 1:38:44 pm reply quote

re: #279 oceansidecon

ID-Creationists are the 9/11 truthers of the right.

Totally true! Believing in a higher power or a specific God and having faith in him is totally the same as that guy sitting in his parent's basement talking about how there were no Jews in the building when it came crashing down.

I've avoided these posts almost entirely and am really sad to see this kind of thought in the comments with a bunch of dings up.

344 ContraJihadi  6/27/08 1:39:00 pm reply quote

re: #338 Catttt

Yes, that was very much the feeling.

345 debutaunt  6/27/08 1:39:27 pm reply quote

re: #329 Lizard by the Bay

What about the segment of the population that pay no income tax (apart from payroll taxes)? They still get vouchers under every plan I've seen. The money comes from someone.



I like vouchers because I believe everything improves with competition. I understand your concern.

346 keithgabryelski  6/27/08 1:39:40 pm reply quote

re: #299 Iron Fist

,

That is exactly what I've been trying to say, but you are more succinct. A lot of what is taught in science class is theory. Unfortunately a lot of it is taught as fact. If Algorism is given a place at the table, why not Creationism? As far as the Big Bang theory goes, well, God said let there be light.

No one knows, nor can, realistically, claim to know what came before that.

1) scientific theory is as good as it gets. fact is relegated to "mathematical facts".

2) Your BS on "Algorism" falls short by conflating "sky is falling" type words with what is actually taught in science class namely the green house effect (which is pretty well understood) and the problems associated with increasing the gasses that cause the green house effect.

3) You claim creationism should be taught in science class if something else that is not science is taught in science class. What logic are you working from, there?

347 Dianna  6/27/08 1:40:03 pm reply quote

re: #252 zombie

Yikes!

348 Beobachter  6/27/08 1:40:19 pm reply quote

re: #329 Lizard by the Bay

What about the segment of the population that pay no income tax (apart from payroll taxes)? They still get vouchers under every plan I've seen. The money comes from someone.

Okay, so do not give out vouchers, but allow us, who choose to send our kids to private school, opt out of paying twice.

349 Oh no...Sand People!  6/27/08 1:40:25 pm reply quote

re: #333 NJDhockeyfan

heh.

It's so nice to see sanity in the comments.

350 Sharmuta  6/27/08 1:41:27 pm reply quote

re: #343 noraono

I've avoided these posts almost entirely and am really sad to see this kind of thought in the comments with a bunch of dings up.

Zero equals a bunch of ding ups, huh?

351 Oh no...Sand People!  6/27/08 1:41:29 pm reply quote

re: #339 ploome hineni

?

same way you are a Chistian and belive in birth control and abortion

no?

Abortion? Only for liberals.
Birth Control? Darn skippy!

352 Lizard by the Bay  6/27/08 1:41:30 pm reply quote

re: #346 keithgabryelski

You claim creationism should be taught in science class if something else that is not science is taught in science class. What logic are you working from, there?

That's the "The well water tastes a little funny, so let's take a shit in it" school of logic.

353 ec marm  6/27/08 1:41:41 pm reply quote

re: #323 Lizard by the Bay

"Hardly" still beats "not at all" by a country mile. ID is not at all science. Period.


I really, really can't understand the position of people who think that even, at the very least, "interesting ideas" can not be presented in science class. I felt absolutely moronic in college when a psych professor mentioned phrenology and I had absolutely no clue as to what he was talking about. Would it really have been such a sin (oops) to present the concept and history of phrenology in a public high school science class?

354 NJDhockeyfan  6/27/08 1:41:43 pm reply quote

re: #349 Oh no...Sand People!

It's so nice to see sanity in the comments.

Yup. Seems the Madison citizens aren't moonbats, just the city officials are.

355 JHW  6/27/08 1:41:53 pm reply quote

re: #300 Salamantis

Lynn Margulis was Sagan's first wife, and is best known for the Gaia hypothesis and the theory of symbiotic relationships
driving evolution.

She later formulated a theory to explain how symbiotic relationships between organisms of often different phyla or kingdoms are the driving force of evolution. Genetic variation is proposed to occur mainly as a result of transfer of nuclear information between bacterial cells or viruses and eukaryotic cells. While her organelle genesis ideas are widely accepted, symbiotic relationships as a current method of introducing genetic variation is something of a fringe idea. However, examination of the results from the Human Genome Project lends some credence to an endosymbiotic theory of evolution—or at the very least Margulis's endosymbiotic theory is the catalyst for current ideas about the composition of the human genome. Significant portions of the human genome are either bacterial or viral in origin—some clearly ancient insertions, while others are more recent in origin. This strongly supports the idea of symbiotic—and more likely parasitic—relationships being a driving force for genetic change in humans, and likely all organisms. It should be noted that while the endosymbiotic theory has historically been juxtaposed to Neo-Darwinism as a competitor, the two theories are not irreconcilable. An emerging synthesis holds that natural selection works on many levels (genetic up to the ecosystem) and variation is introduced both at the genetic and the cellular level.

356 ContraJihadi  6/27/08 1:42:33 pm reply quote

Well, right now my attention is being drawn to the biology of gastric juices. Time for lunch. Be brave, lizards.

357 Catttt  6/27/08 1:42:57 pm reply quote

re: #310 Occasional Reader

Truthers on the right
quote-mining Demski
Throwing powder in our eyes
irreducible complexity
They'll be stomping off
before the debate is through...

:D

Why did I suddenly have "these boots are made for walking" stuck in my head?

358 Maui Girl  6/27/08 1:43:47 pm reply quote

From most of the comments I've read here, you all need to read Dinesh Souza's book, What's so Great About Christianity? No, it's not a book pushing any particular religious dogma but effectively joins together early and modern day science and its Judeo/Christian beginnings. I think you'll be very surprised with what you read.

359 NJDhockeyfan  6/27/08 1:43:47 pm reply quote

re: #349 Oh no...Sand People!

It's so nice to see sanity in the comments.

Here's another good one:

Californian says:

I live in California and for those of you who live in Wisconsin and say you would like to move Madison to California, I say noooooo. We have enough crazy liberal cities here, they are already going bankrupt and taking freedom away at an astounding rate!

If you think it's bad living with a city like Madison in your state, you should try on San Francisco for size. My wife and I recently drove our Hummer H2 right into the heart of San Francisco, it was great! You should have seen the faces and fingers flying. Those people have bought the lie entirely. It's a religion for them. It makes them feel good emotionally to have perceived that they helped the environment so don't expect to win any arguments using facts. They simply can't or won't listen because of their emotional attachment to their religion which is environmentalism. It is exactly like debating a bible thumper on the issue of evolution.

360 wolf  6/27/08 1:43:51 pm reply quote

re: #331 Dianna

Link? Please?

Sorry, no link, just an old fashioned book. Do folks remember what those are? I provided it:

"Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors"

361 Oh no...Sand People!  6/27/08 1:44:23 pm reply quote

re: #341 Occasional Reader

Bollocks. I am old enough to remember Sagan, and yes, I read Cosmos. You are conflating his leaving the door open for religion, with his advocating creationism. Those are two different things.

Actually, in Cosmos, he wrote: "Evolution is a fact, not a theory".

I had the misfortune of being stuck in a hotel and the only thing on was ''V' 'T' for Vendetta Troof''...'bollocks' was half the dialogue.

362 Catttt  6/27/08 1:44:30 pm reply quote

re: #351 Oh no...Sand People!

Abortion? Only for liberals.
Birth Control? Darn skippy!

Funny - my church is the other way around. Evolution - render to Caesar. Those other two things - no no.

363 wolf  6/27/08 1:44:34 pm reply quote

re: #341 Occasional Reader

Bollocks. I am old enough to remember Sagan, and yes, I read Cosmos. You are conflating his leaving the door open for religion, with his advocating creationism. Those are two different things.

Actually, in Cosmos, he wrote: "Evolution is a fact, not a theory".


Maybe I need to use smaller words.

364 keithgabryelski  6/27/08 1:44:36 pm reply quote

re: #314 ec marm


Do you drive down the street looking in the rear view mirror for guidance?

You do if you want to see where you have been.

Big Bang is hardly science.

It most certainly is. It fits all the information we have gathered about the current universe and what we can deduce from that information.

365 MandyManners  6/27/08 1:44:43 pm reply quote

re: #360 wolf

Sorry, no link, just an old fashioned book. Do folks remember what those are? I provided it:

"Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors"

Book? What is "book"?

366 wolfie  6/27/08 1:44:56 pm reply quote

re: #313 Lizard by the Bay

Thank you. That only reinforces my point. I most certainly don't want my money being given to radical Islamist madrases, and vouchers, as you pointed out, would be funded with my money.

And you evidently don't mind your money going to support state indoctrination centers. Fine. But I DO.....and I'm am forced at gunpoint to support your schools no matter what I think of them.

367 Honorary Yooper  6/27/08 1:45:16 pm reply quote

re: #304 Hillbilly Mike

Screw the ACLU! If we are descended from apes, then why are there still apes?

That's because we are not decended from apes, but rather, share a common ancestor with them. Or, I should say, common ancestors as they branched off at different times from us and the other apes, of which the most recent was between humans and chimpanzees, approximately 5 million years ago.

368 Dianna  6/27/08 1:45:17 pm reply quote

re: #277 Tigger2005

In Palo Alto, the parents - many of them scientists and engineers - managed to force newnewmath out.

369 WriterMom  6/27/08 1:45:27 pm reply quote

re: #361 Oh no...Sand People!

Sandra Bollocks is very pretty.

370 Oh no...Sand People!  6/27/08 1:45:43 pm reply quote

re: #359 NJDhockeyfan

Spot on.

371 MandyManners  6/27/08 1:45:47 pm reply quote

re: #341 Occasional Reader

Bollocks. I am old enough to remember Sagan, and yes, I read Cosmos. You are conflating his leaving the door open for religion, with his advocating creationism. Those are two different things.

Actually, in Cosmos, he wrote: "Evolution is a fact, not a theory".

Sagan had a column in Cosmo?

372 Lizard by the Bay  6/27/08 1:46:07 pm reply quote

re: #348 Beobachter

Okay, so do not give out vouchers, but allow us, who choose to send our kids to private school, opt out of paying twice.

Which makes vouchers the exclusive domain of those who can afford them, and since vouchers are sold as a way of getting kids out of the country's worst performing schools (i.e. in poor areas), then vouchers fail at their mission.

I could support vouchers if they had a provision excluding all religious schools. Sadly, that eliminates a vast chunk of good private schools along with the bad ones.

373 Catttt  6/27/08 1:46:22 pm reply quote

I wonder if some school board will introduce the "space aliens" theory of man's evolution. /

374 ec marm  6/27/08 1:46:22 pm reply quote

re: #364 keithgabryelski

It most certainly is. It fits all the information we have gathered about the current universe and what we can deduce from that information.


So you believe all of the matter in the universe could fit into the space occupied by the "." at the end of this sentence?

375 Oh no...Sand People!  6/27/08 1:46:43 pm reply quote

re: #362 Catttt

Funny - my church is the other way around. Evolution - render to Caesar. Those other two things - no no.

Those are my personal (though taking the low road) views...nothing to do with a church.

376 debutaunt  6/27/08 1:46:51 pm reply quote

re: #366 wolfie

And you evidently don't mind your money going to support state indoctrination centers. Fine. But I DO.....and I'm am forced at gunpoint to support your schools no matter what I think of them.

And a lot of schools aren't improving their quality.

377 noraono  6/27/08 1:47:45 pm reply quote

re: #350 Sharmuta

It did when i first looked at the comment- I was the ding that brought it back to zero.

How about i list the absence of comments labeling that statement as ludicrous?

378 Sharmuta  6/27/08 1:48:11 pm reply quote

I wonder what will stop groups such as CAIR from offering Louisiana schools "supplemental" learning material for schools.....

379 tgibson1962  6/27/08 1:48:20 pm reply quote

re: #269 Honorary Yooper

No, I wasn't trying to be dishonest.

Justice Kennedy chose the word, not me. He is, of course, applying a scientific construct in a philosophical/moral setting. My point was that he had, in all likelihood utterly unconsciously, appropriated the idea of evolution to justify his ruling.

Evolution, as his ruling illustrates, provides no basis for moral decisions; it is amoral. To the contrary, it only provides excuses.

380 Honorary Yooper  6/27/08 1:48:27 pm reply quote

re: #373 Catttt

I wonder if some school board will introduce the "space aliens" theory of man's evolution. /

Heh. I almost made a comment about teaching Chariots of the Gods as science as an equivalent to teaching ID as science.

/Neither one is.

381 Throbert McGee  6/27/08 1:48:46 pm reply quote

re: #3 pegcity

i thought America was done with this nonsense

Not for a while yet, I think.

But in some ways, I think that the Intelligent Design junk-science has possibly improved the quality of the discussion about how evolution is taught in schools. For example, the ID debates have provided a good reminder that there is not a stark binary choice between believing that we live in a godless, purposeless universe OR believing that Adam and Eve rode around on dinosaurs about 6000 years ago.

Not that this is news to long-time participants in creation/evolution debates, but for people who only take occasional interest in the subject when there's a political flare-up over it, it may be a novel idea that there's actually a "Continuum of Belief" between Young Earth Creationists and staunch atheists like Richard Dawkins.

382 Charles  6/27/08 1:48:56 pm reply quote

re: #341 Occasional Reader

Bollocks. I am old enough to remember Sagan, and yes, I read Cosmos. You are conflating his leaving the door open for religion, with his advocating creationism. Those are two different things.

Actually, in Cosmos, he wrote: "Evolution is a fact, not a theory".

Not to mention 'The Demon-Haunted World: Science As a Candle in the Dark,' a copy of which I just pulled out of my attic to re-read.

383 Occasional Reader  6/27/08 1:48:58 pm reply quote

re: #360 wolf

Sorry, no link, just an old fashioned book. Do folks remember what those are? I provided it:

"Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors"

Nope, didn't read that one. But I'm having an awfully hard time finding any reviews of it that say it promoted Creationism. No mention here, for instance:

Sagan's goal is to explain how luck and natural selection combined to produce human beings after three and a half billion years of life on earth.

Funny sort of "creationism", that.

384 Honorary Yooper  6/27/08 1:49:31 pm reply quote

re: #379 tgibson1962

No, I wasn't trying to be dishonest.

Justice Kennedy chose the word, not me. He is, of course, applying a scientific construct in a philosophical/moral setting. My point was that he had, in all likelihood utterly unconsciously, appropriated the idea of evolution to justify his ruling.

Evolution, as his ruling illustrates, provides no basis for moral decisions; it is amoral. To the contrary, it only provides excuses.

Again, how did he use the scientific theory of evolution in his ruling? He used the term "evolving" in a legal, not a scientific sense, and had absolutely nothing to do with science what-so-ever.

385 Occasional Reader  6/27/08 1:50:31 pm reply quote

re: #363 wolf

Maybe I need to use smaller words.

No, maybe you need to stop being such an insufferable jerk, and actually defend your position.

386 Catttt  6/27/08 1:50:38 pm reply quote

re: #375 Oh no...Sand People!

Those are my personal (though taking the low road) views...nothing to do with a church.

I meant that to include the prior comment about Christian views. Sorry about that.

387 coquimbojoe  6/27/08 1:50:46 pm reply quote

re: #368 Dianna

In Palo Alto, the parents - many of them scientists and engineers - managed to force newnewmath out.

Having been born in Palo Alto and attended High School there, the education at the public high school (Go Paly Vikings) was very good.

388 Salamantis  6/27/08 1:51:02 pm reply quote

re: #263 BuddyG

The word philosophy is of Ancient Greek origin meaning "love of knowledge". Philosophical questions helped mankind acquire much of our scientific knowledge.

Is the philosophical concept of a creator really so anathema to you?

Actually, my BA is in philosophy, and Philo Sophia is translated as 'love of wisdom', not 'love of knowledge'.

There is indeed an interplay between philosophy and science. Philosophy asks questions. Some of these questions turn out to be amenable to empirical investigation, and are also for one reason or other interesting, so they are submitted to experimentation to verify/falsify various possible answers. The answers thus obtained inform philosophy as to the scope and parameter of the possible, outside of which speculation is useless, and then philosophy comes up with a different set of questions, informed by the scientific answers to their last ones, in those cases where scientific answers were indeed possible.

The trend has been for more and more territory to be ceded by both philosophy and religion to the realm of science, as we learn more and more about our surrounding world, aided by the technological augmentation of our perceptions (microscopes, telescopes, etc.) and cognitions (computer) made possible by previous scientific advances. Whenever empirical evidence can be presented concerning an assertion, it becomes an article of knowledge (more or less statistically probable given the evidence) and neither an article of faith (which depends upon the ansence of evidence) or an axiom of philosophy (which is more interested in basic premises and their logically deduced conclusions than in the empirically testable, although there is indeed a philosophy of science that delineates precisely what belongs within the scientific domain, and why).

The divisions of philosophy are, Epistemology (theory of knowledge - logic is a subdiscipline), Axiology (theory of values - ethics and aesthetics belong here) and Ontology (theory of being). These days, metaphysics is not much practiced in philosophy; that territory has been ceded to theology. It is the foundational underpinnings of being (the beneath rather than the beyond; that which must be so for being to be as it is and not otherwise) that are investigated via ontology.

389 Ma Sands  6/27/08 1:51:08 pm reply quote

re: #343 noraono

I love your avatar.....is there a story behind it? :)

390 Dianna  6/27/08 1:51:18 pm reply quote

re: #311 Catttt

I know this is an important issue, but I'm still thinking about fried food.

My tummy is growling.

Yeah. I'm stuck - I can't go for some lunch until the president of the foundation leaves.

It's almost two, and I'm beginning to actively suffer.

391 Crimsonfisted  6/27/08 1:51:27 pm reply quote

re: #342 karmic_inquisitor

Because we didn't descend from apes. The "descend from apes" is a phrase coined by creationists to mis-state evolution and thereby get people to reject it.

Apparently it was effective.

I thought ol' Mo coined the "descended from apes" thing, but that it only applied to Jews?

Come to think of it, how DID apes and pigs mate according to Mo? Did he ever say?

392 Occasional Reader  6/27/08 1:51:44 pm reply quote

re: #371 MandyManners

Sagan had a column in Cosmo?

Yep. He explained how you can have billyuns and billyuns of orgasms.

393 yochanan  6/27/08 1:52:23 pm reply quote

re: #15 zombie

given the whole global warming stuff passing itself off as science. I would sa science is very political this will just be one more layer of it.

394 Oh no...Sand People!  6/27/08 1:53:33 pm reply quote

re: #386 Catttt

I meant that to include the prior comment about Christian views. Sorry about that.

No need to apologize...I just wanted to make sure that my 'jaded/mean spirited/vile' outlook of pinning abortion as being a positive when liberals reduce the number of children who might be raised up with their views is strictly my own and not affiliated with anything other than me.

395 Dianna  6/27/08 1:53:37 pm reply quote

re: #360 wolf

Try using Amazon for the linkage, thus.

And stop being a snot.

396 Occasional Reader  6/27/08 1:53:37 pm reply quote

re: #361 Oh no...Sand People!

I had the misfortune of being stuck in a hotel and the only thing on was ''V' 'T' for Vendetta Troof''...'bollocks' was half the dialogue.

Well, then, never mind the bollocks.

397 karmic_inquisitor  6/27/08 1:54:01 pm reply quote

OK - I take it all back.

By exploring the interwebs, I have discovered that evolution is a hoax.

We have thetans to thank.

/Just think - Scientology can now be part of Louisiana science instruction.

398 NJDhockeyfan  6/27/08 1:54:01 pm reply quote
399 Crimsonfisted  6/27/08 1:54:02 pm reply quote

re: #388 Salamantis

I need a degree just to read that post!

Interesting I must say, and bookmarked to re-read since my small brain can't wrap around it at this time of day.

400 rasachema[deleted]  6/27/08 1:54:03 pm
401 Beobachter  6/27/08 1:54:23 pm reply quote

re: #372 Lizard by the Bay

Which makes vouchers the exclusive domain of those who can afford them, and since vouchers are sold as a way of getting kids out of the country's worst performing schools (i.e. in poor areas), then vouchers fail at their mission.

I could support vouchers if they had a provision excluding all religious schools. Sadly, that eliminates a vast chunk of good private schools along with the bad ones.

But, I am not trying to get vouchers from the government, it just irks me to no end, that I have to pay twice, one time for the failing school system and for the private school.

402 Lizard by the Bay  6/27/08 1:55:16 pm reply quote

re: #353 ec marm

I really, really can't understand the position of people who think that even, at the very least, "interesting ideas" can not be presented in science class.

I have an interesting idea. What if the world of Harry Potter were real, and there were really witches and warlocks and magical spells? Can I teach Harry Potter in science class now?

As for the phrenology reference, I suppose some kind of "science history" class, teaching about things we once believed were science fact but we now know to be bunk could be interesting, but I don't see how it relates to (or justifies) teaching ID as a valid "alternative science".

403 Franktalk  6/27/08 1:55:21 pm reply quote

Lets call science by its real name "naturalism". Science by not allowing any supernatural events forces all conclusions to be within the natural order of things. This is violated many times in many areas of science as long as they don't interfere with the atheistic view of the world. So in physics we can say things disappear and then reappear somewhere else even if we have never witnessed this event. We can even say that photons communicate with each other even when we have no idea how that could happen. But let someone say that it looks like some of the parts of man were designed and you become a religious nut job. I say let the debate happen and let the chips fall where they fall. From reading some of these post I would guess that some would love to burn Bibles. Be careful what ideas you limit the youth of today to learn. To learn that it is OK to limit debate will one day come back in some unexpected form. Who knows how debate will be limited in the future. A firing squad comes to mind.

404 Boondock St. Bender  6/27/08 1:55:24 pm reply quote

re: #383 Occasional Reader

The lord works in mysterious ways.

405 Sharmuta  6/27/08 1:55:25 pm reply quote

re: #400 rasachema

WTH?

406 noraono  6/27/08 1:55:34 pm reply quote

re: #389 Ma Sands

I like this topic so much better! I have a zoo...2 dogs, a cat, and a giant bunny (not quite full grown and hit the 15lb mark already...). The dog in the picture is the hyper one that drives everybody crazy, but the bunny is too hyper for ever her as you can see by her baleful look.

407 Crimsonfisted  6/27/08 1:56:12 pm reply quote

re: #397 karmic_inquisitor

Just think - Scientology can now be part of Louisiana science instruction.

If someone had whispered that comment to the Governor, I bet the bill would have been dead in the water.

408 Jewels (AKA Julian)  6/27/08 1:56:32 pm reply quote

Oy vey.....what is with both the parties...are they all clinically thick?

409 Sharmuta  6/27/08 1:56:36 pm reply quote

re: #403 Franktalk

Boooooooo to DI talking points!

410 ec marm  6/27/08 1:56:54 pm reply quote

re: #392 Occasional Reader

re: #371 MandyManners

Sagan had a column in Cosmo?

Yep. He explained how you can have billyuns and billyuns of orgasms.

Let me guess; that was the issue with the perpetual question, "Does Size Really Matter?" on the cover?

411 Lizard by the Bay  6/27/08 1:56:57 pm reply quote

re: #401 Beobachter

But, I am not trying to get vouchers from the government, it just irks me to no end, that I have to pay twice, one time for the failing school system and for the private school.

I completely sympathize, and was lucky enough to have some private schooling in my life, but vouchers are too open to abuse. We need a better solution.

413 wolfie  6/27/08 1:57:08 pm reply quote

re: #381 Throbert McGee

Good point.

414 Oh no...Sand People!  6/27/08 1:57:35 pm reply quote

re: #396 Occasional Reader

Well, then, never mind the bollocks.

Go Sex Pistols.

415 Dirk Diggler  6/27/08 1:57:36 pm reply quote

Great piece of legislation. The Discovery Institute does great work.

/

416 buzzsawmonkey  6/27/08 1:57:54 pm reply quote

re: #379 tgibson1962

No, I wasn't trying to be dishonest.

Justice Kennedy chose the word, not me. He is, of course, applying a scientific construct in a philosophical/moral setting. My point was that he had, in all likelihood utterly unconsciously, appropriated the idea of evolution to justify his ruling.

Evolution, as his ruling illustrates, provides no basis for moral decisions; it is amoral. To the contrary, it only provides excuses.

Absolute, complete, utter crap.

The phrase "evolving standards of decency" has been used by the Supreme Court in deliberations on what is or is not cruel and unusual punishment for well over 50 years. It was already a cliche common in an extensive line of Supreme Court decisions when I was in lawschool over 30 years ago.

To suggest that Justice Kennedy "chose the word" because he was "applying a scientific construct in a moral setting" is nonsense. He chose the phrase because by doing so he was linking his decision--or trying to--with a long series of Supreme Court deliberations on the same subject. "Scientific construct?" No, stare decisis.

The ignorance and dishonesty of your suggesting otherwise is of a piece with the posters here who have been using the "evolution is just a theory" line, treating the term "theory," a scientific term of art which denotes an explanation for a group of proven hypotheses, as if it meant "idle speculation."

417 Ma Sands  6/27/08 1:58:29 pm reply quote

re: #398 NJDhockeyfan

Snow! Wow. My sons have climbed that mountain several times --beautiful country! .......there's a fabulous summer-school place half way up.....teaches kids coming out of high school how to beard the college professors in their dens, concerning worldview. :) Poor kid --I wish the loveliness of the place had stayed his gas-pedal foot.....

418 MandyManners  6/27/08 1:58:29 pm reply quote

re: #392 Occasional Reader

Yep. He explained how you can have billyuns and billyuns of orgasms.

Oh, you're just too good.

419 Oh no...Sand People!  6/27/08 1:58:43 pm reply quote

re: #410 ec marm

Let me guess; that was the issue with the perpetual question, "Does Size Really Matter?" on the cover?

No. It was about the 'Big Ba...uh..never mind.

420 FrogMarch  6/27/08 1:58:47 pm reply quote

anyone optimistic about the Republicans in 08 is fooling themselves.

read it and weep.

421 Psaturn  6/27/08 1:59:26 pm reply quote

re: #265 ContraJihadi

Good observation. One of the difficulties with biology is that it does not achieve the mathematical certainty of physics or chemistry.

I agree!

You would think that the word 'species' which is integral in Biology would be precisely defined.

It is not.

The difficulty of Biology is that it encompasses quite a few fields:
Botany, Microbiology, Zoology, Paleontology, Physiology etc....and each have their own definition and view...

422 rasachema[deleted]  6/27/08 1:59:34 pm
423 karmic_inquisitor  6/27/08 1:59:35 pm reply quote

re: #403 Franktalk

If you changed "science" to "naturalism," what would science mean?

Would it be "let's talk about how this COULD have come about and not support it with any evidence?"

/Science, by definition, does not allow for supernatural explanations. If a phenomenon cannot be explained it is described as such - unexplained.

424 Beobachter  6/27/08 1:59:44 pm reply quote

re: #411 Lizard by the Bay

I completely sympathize, and was lucky enough to have some private schooling in my life, but vouchers are too open to abuse. We need a better solution.

I am not advocating vouchers. I would like to have a 100% refund of the school taxes I pay, though.

425 Psaturn  6/27/08 2:00:08 pm reply quote

re: #373 Catttt

I wonder if some school board will introduce the "space aliens" theory of man's evolution. /

That is called Panspermia..

426 Ma Sands  6/27/08 2:00:09 pm reply quote

re: #406 noraono

Thank you! :) Sounds like such fun! :)

427 gunjam  6/27/08 2:00:26 pm reply quote
Louisiana governor Bobby Jindal has signed a stealth creationist bill into law, and American educational standards take a huge step backward: Science law could set tone for Jindal.

Charles: So, we creationists won a round! That doesn't happen every day.

I think I'll have a Carlsberg!

428 keithgabryelski  6/27/08 2:00:34 pm reply quote