It's like he doesn't know how to get elected.

Sad and stupid. I'd like to see his top priority be American energy independence and winning the WoT.

I really, really feel sorry for my fellow Americans. Your choices suck as bad as ours did in the mid-nineties.

McCain is going to get trounced.

I think he's trying to say the right thing, but isn't that good saying contentful things with his mouth.

Well that campaign strategy might work if all the illegals could vote for him.

Unbelievable.

re: #4 Lawrence Schmerel

Maybe, it depends on who inmplodes firstest and worstest.

/any odds makers out there?

If they were going to actually build the fence first - a real fence from the Gulf of Mexico to th Pacific Ocean - and to deport all criminals, I would be willing to go along with some type of path to citizenship for the rest of them.

Good lord. What an idiot. I must get upwards of twenty begging letters from the McCain campaign every week. It never fails. Just when I find myself about to send him a little bit of money he pulls another whopper.

It's bad when the guy you're voting for is trying to NOT get your vote. Yes, McCain, you're getting it, but my Senators will be on speed dial.

re: #8 BlueCanuck

Maybe, it depends on who inmplodes firstest and worstest.

/any odds makers out there?

Offshore betting
Obambi -180
McCain - +160
no sarc

Fence now.
Crack down on employers
Pull federal funding from any jurisdiction that doesn't cooperate with ICE.
No anchor babies.

Give illegals a limited time to get a green card, say 3 months, or return home and enter legally. Those for those that opt for staying and green card path to citizenship is closed.

Any still illegal after the 3 months grace gets deported when caught.

REFORM!

This is no surprise. Either candidate will open the boarders.
This is not about anybody being biased against "Brown" people.
It is about soverignty, national security, crime , education, health care & economics.
No society can absorb this mass. A new entitled class ,will drain the Middle Class of resources. It will be exterminatin of a class through taxation.

So he really thinks that the Dems will cross over and vote him in?
This is madness.

re: #8 BlueCanuck

Maybe, it depends on who inmplodes firstest and worstest.

The off-the-teleprompter McCain seems to be much less self-destructive than the Obamessiah, but his prepared material is shockingly lame.

of course we need comprehensive reform. I have been very disappointed in the right when it comes to this issue. The plan McCain and Bush backed was a logical way to move forward. Instead, everyone bitched and nothing got done. Claiming it was amnesty was a lie. It was not.

Ohfergoodnesssakes.

re: #8 BlueCanuck

Obama's implosions will go unreported.

McCain will pay foolishly to advertise his own implosions.

The result is so predictable, you don't need a expert to tell you the odds.

re: #15 mbruce

So he really thinks that the Dems will cross over and vote him in?
This is madness.

The Dems who would cross over are the anti-illegal-immigration white working-class Dems. You know, the ones who are "clinging to their guns and their God". McCain hasn't figured that out yet.

re: #12 VegasRick

okay I asked for odds but I don't really understand the + - thing.

/figures it would be VegasRick who would have them close to hand. :)

I liked him better when he did this
[Link: bluestarchronicles.com...]

I wonder if he will recognize the damage done to our economy by the flood of illegal workers who helped fuel the housing boom the last couple decades. New construction costs were lower than what they would have been had all the labor been legal, and this led to overbuilding, which led to the glut, which led to the free fall in prices.

Unintended consequences are a bitch. And ignoring them or covering them up makes it worse.

My name is John McCain and I approved of this inconsistent, convoluted message that is meant to appeal to a very narrow and specific segment of society, whose meaning will ultimately shoot me in my political right foot.

Si Se Puede
yes, you can - sell out
Is McCain gonna have Teddy Kennedy as his VP?

That idiot is bound and determined to make this a difficult election.

If anybody in McCain's campaign is lurking here, you better tell that bozo that this is an issue that could screw the pooch for campaign.

re: #17 CactusJack

Agree that something(s) must be done... and that the "shamnesty" cries were over done.

However, still this seems like a lame move for McCain. He needs every last vote he can get and as Mickey Kaus points out the potential loss of votes from disillusioned Republicans (and Reagan Democrats IMO) is larger than any expected gain from Latinos.

What may have happened is that internal polling came back with some very scary figures.... and McCain decided to start throwing out Hail Mary policies/priorities just to see what happens.

I want employment enforcement.

Once we start blocking those who shouldn't be *working*, border enforcement gets easier.

Of course, Mexico gets a double whammy - first, a big economic kick in the nuts (less ca$h coming south) and second a lot of unemployed young men with no prospects.

I HOPE their CHANGE doesn't spill across the border northward.

Mew

re: #17 CactusJack

of course we need comprehensive reform. I have been very disappointed in the right when it comes to this issue. The plan McCain and Bush backed was a logical way to move forward. Instead, everyone bitched and nothing got done. Claiming it was amnesty was a lie. It was not.

Let me take issue with you my friend. It was an Amnesty bill with lipstick.
The touch back provision? Yeah that would happen.
$5,000 fines? Uh huh, those woud be waived.
The extended families woul be packing to come here.
Just look at health care. These employers usually provide no benefits.
ER is being used as primary care doctors & hospitals are closing

Today's Day by Day.

re: #21 BlueCanuck

okay I asked for odds but I don't really understand the + - thing.

/figures it would be VegasRick who would have them close to hand. :)

+ - thing
+160 = bet $100 and win $160 plus the $100, -180 = you must bet $180 to win $100. In other words, McCain is a big underdog.

re: #13 jcm

Fence now.
Crack down on employers
Pull federal funding from any jurisdiction that doesn't cooperate with ICE.
No anchor babies.

Give illegals a limited time to get a green card, say 3 months, or return home and enter legally. Those for those that opt for staying and green card path to citizenship is closed.

Any still illegal after the 3 months grace gets deported when caught.

REFORM!

And make English the official language of the United States (by Constitutional Amendment if necessary).

The Hispanics that I work with (all citizens) seem to favor McCain.

....To be quite honest, many of them do not like the a black president.

Prediction: emotionalist 19 year olds will make sure Obama goes over the top in 08 and wins the election.

and with so many republicans retiring from congress and the huge sums of money awash in democrat machine - the dems will take over both houses of congress.

say hello to a really bad supreme court selections and all sorts of socialist tax the productive and give it to the entitled - nation down the euro-marxist toilet bowl - "change".

someones listening to the wrong people....gonna be a long election..

Nothing McCain--or for that matter any politician--does to pander for the vote of minorities surprises me any more. They think the Latino vote or the Woman's Lib vote is the big swing vote this year and tend to forget about us middle class white males. I would stay home on election day if Obama wasn't so dangerous.

re: #32 goddessoftheclassroom

Add some heavy prosecution of businesses getting fat on illegal labor to the wish list.

There are at least 4, count 'em four guest worker programs. Build the damn fence and enforce the existing laws, pull federal funds from "sanctuary" cities.

re: #32 goddessoftheclassroom

And make English the official language of the United States (by Constitutional Amendment if necessary).

If english is taught in schools to all natural born citizens, and immigrants have to pass an english competency test to gain citizenship....

Why are election ballots printed in anything other than English?

re: #37 jaunte

Add some heavy prosecution of businesses getting fat on illegal labor to the wish list.

That's the key to success.

This is timely, Brokaw is now discussing the issue & said, "So called undocumented workers." So called?
My favorite was a sociologist on the radio saying, "Undocumented Citizens." There ya go.

You know, they've got problems like this in Europe, too, and they have no problems building fences and deporting people who try to get in from Africa. It seems to me there's not nearly as much howling about that there as there is here. And a lot more of those illegal aliens get killed in the process, yet no one blames Europe.

re: #39 jcm

politiclly correct pandering bullshit

McCain is just being realistic. he does not support illegal immigration, but you cant build a dumb wall either. so what do we do? a lot of people seem to think that bitching and moaning will accomplish something or maybe we just knock on every restaurant door or farm and start rounding people up?

Bush backed the same plan McCain did, but McCain gets all the grief, why?

re: #23 Mich-again

I wonder if he will recognize the damage done to our economy by the flood of illegal workers who helped fuel the housing boom the last couple decades. New construction costs were lower than what they would have been had all the labor been legal, and this led to overbuilding, which led to the glut, which led to the free fall in prices.

Oh yeah. Here in Southern California, you could not get a job in residential construction if you didn't speak Spanish. Seriously, because 70-80% of your fellow crewmen couldn't speak English. There were several occasions (at least five I remember) when I went to a jobsite to find not one person there could speak English, not even the supervisor.

“We have to secure our borders—that’s the message,” McCain said. “But we also must proceed with a temporary worker program that is verifiable and truly temporary.”

Translation - No need to worry about border securtiy right now we will continue to let illegals work until we can give them all amnesty.

He just doesn't get it does he?

re: #41 opnion

This is timely, Brokaw is now discussing the issue & said, "So called undocumented workers." So called?
My favorite was a sociologist on the radio saying, "Undocumented Citizens." There ya go.

Some yutz said that on the house floor too.....

re: #38 pingjockey

There are at least 4, count 'em four guest worker programs. Build the damn fence and enforce the existing laws, pull federal funds from "sanctuary" cities.

Pull all the funding *except* for police enforcement.

The economic changes that come with pulling fed funds (forex. welfare) are going to mean some crime waves.

Mew

re: #43 Boondock St. Bender

politiclly correct pandering bullshit

LOL!

Rotating title nomination!

Very true!

re: #37 jaunte

Add some heavy prosecution of businesses getting fat on illegal labor to the wish list.

Yup, CEO's hearing the cell doors slam, would do wonders

re: #41 opnion

This is timely, Brokaw is now discussing the issue & said, "So called undocumented workers." So called?
My favorite was a sociologist on the radio saying, "Undocumented Citizens." There ya go.

Scumbag Harry Red called them "undocumented Americans" if you can believe that!

re: #44 CactusJack

McCain is just being realistic. he does not support illegal immigration, but you cant build a dumb wall either. so what do we do? a lot of people seem to think that bitching and moaning will accomplish something or maybe we just knock on every restaurant door or farm and start rounding people up?

Bush backed the same plan McCain did, but McCain gets all the grief, why?

Umm, Bush isn't running for re-election?

Mew

Good morning Charles!
This is really not a shock to me - politicians lie, ALL the time. Some bright bulb on McCain's staff thinks that this position will help him win votes - I don't see how, but John didn't ask me for my opinion, just my money.
What truly amazes me is that McCain has been stuck on this position since before starting his campaign for POTUS and he "represents" one of the States that has so many problems with illegals.

Nothing like an immigration thread to kick things in the but early morning!

My wife entered this country legally 12 years ago, waiting 2 years and having to go through a long interview process before she could get her green card. When she got here, she was disgusted by ease at which others can cut in line before those that try to follow the legal process. That is why she became a citizen as soon as she could - so that she could vote against those that encourage and reward illegal behavior.

re: #44 CactusJack

McCain is just being realistic. he does not support illegal immigration, but you cant build a dumb wall either. so what do we do? a lot of people seem to think that bitching and moaning will accomplish something or maybe we just knock on every restaurant door or farm and start rounding people up?

Bush backed the same plan McCain did, but McCain gets all the grief, why?

Know he is not supporting illegal immigration. He wants to legalise it.
We could defeat all crime in total by making all things legal.

Well John, all I can say is , BRING IT ON! We stopped this bs before and we will stop this bs AGAIN!

re: #48 MijaCat

Pull all the funding *except* for police enforcement.

The economic changes that come with pulling fed funds (forex. welfare) are going to mean some crime waves.

Mew

In Seattle I'd gladly pull federal funding for police on this issue. SPD has orders not ask, not to cooperate with ICE. Until the moonbats of Seattle really feel some pain, they're aren't going to force city government to change on this issue.

# 27 feetoken

However, still this seems like a lame move for McCain. He needs every last vote he can get and as Mickey Kaus points out the potential loss of votes from disillusioned Republicans (and Reagan Democrats IMO) is larger than any expected gain from Latinos.

But, its not lame to compromise your values for votes? McCain just cant win on this issue. The right needs to wake up and stop bashing him over the head about this. we need to do something that is wise. But the right is just not being wise on this issue.

re: #41 opnion

Absolutely. What part of the word "ILLEGAL" don't they get.
So, it's a big problem, and the way all these guys will deal with it will be to talk, talk, talk. Just like energy, the war, etc, etc. None of them have the guts or will to implement a workable, fair, sensible plan.
And every day, there are more ILLEGAL immigrants.

Oh yeah. Here in Southern California, you could not get a job in residential construction if you didn't speak Spanish.

Sounds to me more like jobs Americans can't get instead of jobs Americans wont do.

My question is why hasn't anyone gone to a job that they were qualified for and turned down as they did not speak Spanish file a discrimination lawsuit? You figure that the attention of a lawsuit like that would be well worth the pro-bono work a lawyer could do on something like that.

re: #33 Ringo the Gringo

The Hispanics that I work with (all citizens) seem to favor McCain.

....To be quite honest, many of them do not like the a black president.

I wondered if that was going to come up this election. Obama was campaigning in a Latino area the other day, and it occurred to me that he might be wasting his time. Though I don't know the reasons behind it.

re: #47 jcm

Some yutz said that on the house floor too.....

That was not your typical yutz. Senate Majority leader as it were. POS.

We had a guy here in North central Wa. Got the C41 or C4I or whatever the program is do bring people in legally to work. Had to pay for their plane tickets to and from Mexico, room and board. Had to pay a prevailing wage type deal plus 2$. So if the local orchardists were paying 10 bucks an hour he had to pay 12$ an hour. Rented out the local Best Western motel for housing. Guess who is suing him for substandard housing? The state of Washington. Apparently according to their little socialist template, a Best Westerns rooms aren't big enough! So he did everything by the book and is getting sued. You can't hire high school kids cause of the silly labor laws. So if your apples, pears, cherries, peaches, etc...are damn spendy thank the socialist bureaucrats.

Step one is to prevent the Obama from being elected.
Step two is to repeat the grassroots effort to defeat this bill again, and as many times as it needs to be defeated.

Here's an interesting bit about the Clinton voters who might go for McCain.

...Why Does Obama Fear 4 million?
The PUMA Community represents the most ardent, values driven and politically educated of Hillary Clinton's supporters. They do not fall for the traditional talking points of the political parties that are meant to drive a wedge between the electorate. When McCain was attacked as a Womanizer and accused of not supporting equal pay; this community researched the issues and pointed out the divisiveness and fallacies of the accusations. When Obama and his supporters brought abortion to the forefront of their argument, the Puma community was quick to point out that historically speaking the "Overturning Roe" threat has been disproved simply by the fact that after years of Republican judicial appointments SCOTUS has shown no desire to take up the issue. Obama fears the Puma community because they are not the typical single-issue voters who will fall for rhetoric.

[Link: politicallydrunk.blogspot.com...]

re: #10 Bobblehead

I get emails almost daily from the McCain campaign asking for donations. As of today they are marked as spam.

re: #44 CactusJack

McCain is just being realistic. he does not support illegal immigration, but you cant build a dumb wall either. so what do we do? a lot of people seem to think that bitching and moaning will accomplish something or maybe we just knock on every restaurant door or farm and start rounding people up?

Bush backed the same plan McCain did, but McCain gets all the grief, why?

Because McCain wrote the fucking thing.

And no, truly opposing illegal immigration does not mean rounding all 20 miilion of them up. Making it next to impossible for them to get work will encourage them to "self-deport". Something like a real identification that can't be easily faked and real penalties to employers who knowingly hire illegals.

re: #62 VegasRick

That was not your typical yutz. Senate Majority leader as it were. POS.
[Link: www.youtube.com...]

That putz is a yutz with no nutz!

The first and most logical choice is to tell Mexico that anyone trying to violate our border will be shot on sight.

That's severely extreme, but it solves a significant portion of the illegal immigration issue instantly and with finality. And with a high degree of cost effectiveness.

People will infiltrate our border by all available means until we stop it. This isn't a national crisis, it's an international crisis. If the US collapses under the weight of illegal influx, then so goes the worlld.

That issue should be a non-issue, but as long as there is a strong marketplace in this country for undermarket labor we have little choice.

Our country is too important to abandon for the greed and avarice of a minority of Americans. Deal with immigration, and get that turkey out of the way. We have issues even more critical to deal with, including energy and the nuclear threat from Iran.

I'm so agitated by Iran that today I'm going to suggest the termination solution, something that's never ever been on our table. If Iran wants to exterminate Israel by any means, and continues on a course of nuclear annihilation, then we need to let them know in no uncertain terms that their intentions are putting the existence of their society at great risk. This became much less than funny a long time ago.

re: #1 Noam Sayin'

It's like he doesn't know how to get elected.

I'm sorry to say that there really is a reason to call it the stupid party.

I just posted the following comment over at E-Ramblings:

What the Left is doing looks a lot like the Puritan or Prohibitionist mode of behavior transferred to other areas of public policy. We should remember that continued support for Prohibition had seriously hurt the Republicans in the 1932 election. Even Ayn Rand had voted for FDR that year.

The Republicans could really go to town and make significant gains by opposing the Democrat's idiotic technopuritan policies, but that would mean having to give up their own idiotic practice of doing politics as usual.

And I just don't see that happening.

What are your questions on this block of instruction?
_

re: #45 Spiny Norman

You'd think it would be a huge safety problem in construction. Although it looks like they solved it after all- everybody speaks Spanish.

Supreme Court justice picks....

War on Islamic jihad....

He's too old to last longer than one term....

The illegals are already flooding the zone with President Bush at the helm. McCain was one of the congressmen pushing the inital bill.

I don't expect the illegal issue to be solved except through cracking down hard on employers who hire illegals, and sending any we find back home--more or less what state legislatures--including my own--are doing now. I'd rather leave the illegal issue to the states anyway. They can locate the illegal-hiring employers a lot faster than the federal government.

Heck, I appreciate the fact that Senator McCain didn't flip-flop. He believes (wrongly) in this position.

I do also think that: illegal immigration didn't happen overnight, and it won't be solved with either party in control of the White House--not overnight.

Get McCain in, then replace him with a stronger conservative (Duncan Hunter) in four.

/Hunter 12!

Some more thoughts before I leave for the morning:

Don't know how many of you follow the online (game) markets, but the Iowa Electronic Market has been showing worsening figures for McCain.

E.g., in the winner-take-all offering (essentially popular vote):
[Link: iemweb.biz.uiowa.edu...]

It could be that for all his effort to make Energy Policy the front and center matter the past two weeks, the evidence is coming in that it was not affecting (enough) people.

Surely McCain can expect a bounce after the convention, but who believes it could overcome a > 20 point spread?

I know a lot of people poo-poo'd the various polling figures last week, but what if (more accurate) internal polling showed the same thing - that McCain was heading for a loss that could only be called a blow out?

In such a situation, what would McCain lose by trying to stir up some attention and try to change the national dialogue?

/just wondering....

re: #44 CactusJack

McCain is just being realistic. he does not support illegal immigration, but you cant build a dumb wall either.

A double fence can be built and it would decrease illegal border crossings by more than 90%.

But I agree, if we were to try to deport every illegal alien in the US, millions of families would be torn apart and the agriculture industry would collapse.

The answer is to stop the flow at the border. It can be done if we have the will.

re: #33 Ringo the Gringo
Yeah, same here with ALL the hispanics I know (and fwiw, North Carolina is in the top five of states with major problems with illegal immigration).

re: #65 joegosox

what took you so long?

re: #34 FrogMarch

Prediction: emotionalist 19 year olds will make sure Obama goes over the top in 08 and wins the election.

That is, if said 19 year olds aren't busy frakking with each other!

re: #59 leboaz

Absolutely. What part of the word "ILLEGAL" don't they get.
So, it's a big problem, and the way all these guys will deal with it will be to talk, talk, talk. Just like energy, the war, etc, etc. None of them have the guts or will to implement a workable, fair, sensible plan.
And every day, there are more ILLEGAL immigrants.

The talking points are incredible, "these are Gods children."
"Lettuce would cost ten dollars" We cannot do anyting about it anyway." "You're just haters"
Hey crash Mexico illegaly. Ten years in the callabose!

#55 opnion

Know he is not supporting illegal immigration. He wants to legalise it.

BS. so, all the illegals that are here, what do we do with them? if you want people rounded up just say it! everyone bitches, but no one offers solutions. good grief.

re: #63 pingjockey

When I was a member of the CPUSA, I had a friend who useta' work the orchards during harvest. She hated illegal immigration 'cause it took money away from locals and many outfits mistreated illegals, and this mistreatment sometimes spilled over to the locals.

Its funny that we need the votes of the illegals to win the election in Nov. Now I sound like a Dem.

He might as well make a few campaign stops in Mexico.

re: #67 jcm

OT- just got back from vacation including a week on the beach at Moclips. You northwestern guys have a pretty nice deal going. Absolutely beautiful, and you tell everyone stories about how it rains all the time to keep people from coming. But I found you out!
Congratulations on a beautiful place.

re: #33 Ringo the Gringo

The Hispanics that I work with (all citizens) seem to favor McCain.

....To be quite honest, many of them do not like the a black president.

Yeah, legal Hispanics in Arizona, favor a fence.
Must be racists

“We have to secure our borders—that’s the message,” McCain said. “But . . .”

re: #72 freetoken Sorry, but there are too many ways in which polls can be misleading and just flat out wrong for me to pay any attention to them - and McCain should know that too!
Doesn't anyone remember recent American History?
Who did the polls predict would win POTUS the day before election day in 2004? Yep, John Effin' Kerry and by anywhere from 3-7%.
I think McCain actually believes this crap - see my #53 above.

Why doesn't McCain save a lot of time and money and say "Conservatives, I don't want your votes"? Obama is the worst candidate since Dukakis and there's no freaking way that he should be able to win, even with the 24/7 media fellatio. This election is proof positive why US Senators rarely make it to the presidency - they are ass-kissers first, compromisers second - not a leadership bone in their bodies. It's maddening and disgusting.

re: #83 opnion

Yeah, legal Hispanics in Arizona, favor a fence.
Must be racists realists.

Fixed it.

re: #70 angst

You'd think it would be a huge safety problem in construction. Although it looks like they solved it after all- everybody speaks Spanish.

Exactly.

I know a guy, the son of legal Mexican immigrants who goes by "John" not "Jose", who got fired from a crew after getting into a nose-to-nose shouting match with the supervisor after bitching at the others to speak English and they responded by calling him a "fucking Gringo".

I happened to witness this, because it was the crew building an addition on the house next door.

re: #68 really grumpy big dog Johnson

The first and most logical choice is to tell Mexico that anyone trying to violate our border will be shot on sight.

WTF?

Voter registration cards, no welfare or perqs, teach school inEnglish, arrest employers. Problem solved.

re: #78 CactusJack

#55 opnion

BS. so, all the illegals that are here, what do we do with them? if you want people rounded up just say it! everyone bitches, but no one offers solutions. good grief.

Calm down, this is jut a disagreement. A round up would actually work , but would take a long time. Serious sanctions on employers including jail time woud do the trick. They would go home.

re: #67 jcm

That putz is a yutz with no nutz!

He may be a puty with no nutz but he knows "Tommy!"
[Link: hotair.com...]

re: #87 The Other Les

Fixed it.

Thank you.

re: #82 leboaz

OT- just got back from vacation including a week on the beach at Moclips. You northwestern guys have a pretty nice deal going. Absolutely beautiful, and you tell everyone stories about how it rains all the time to keep people from coming. But I found you out!
Congratulations on a beautiful place.

How'd you get out, usually folks that discover that we declare to be in possession of state secrets and put 'em to work at Microserf!

/

Glad you had a good visit! We're heading camping on the coast near Westport in a couple of weeks.

re: #78 CactusJack

#55 opnion

BS. so, all the illegals that are here, what do we do with them? if you want people rounded up just say it! everyone bitches, but no one offers solutions. good grief.

Not all all. Just make it next to impossible for them to get work. They'll leave on their own.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggg ggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Why do you make this so hard, McCain?

I will have to bring a vomit bag to the polling station.

re: #86 tedzilla99

Why doesn't McCain save a lot of time and money and say "Conservatives, I don't want your votes"? Obama is the worst candidate since Dukakis the founding of our nation and there's no freaking way that he should be able to win, even with the 24/7 media fellatio. This election is proof positive why US Senators rarely make it to the presidency - they are ass-kissers first, compromisers second - not a leadership bone in their bodies. It's maddening and disgusting.

Slight tweak.

“We have to secure our borders—that’s the message,” McCain said. “But we also must proceed with a temporary worker program that is verifiable and truly temporary.”

Yes, Senator- we have to secure the border. I highly doubt Republicans will disagree with you on this. A worker's program- that's an issue we should continue to debate. Proceeding with a bad plan will be just as damaging as proceeding with the status quo.

My problem, however, Senator, is your making this a priority. Securing the borders- again- great! We welcome that, and it goes hand in hand with winning the WoT, imo. But this issue is not an issue that will bring people to vote for you.

There is one issue a lot of Americans would run to your banner to support however- OIL. Tell us your priority is American oil for American cars, and new refineries to lower our gas costs. You'll win in a landslide.

re: #94 jcm
Work?!?!?!?!?
My alter ego, Maynard G. Krebs, wouldn't think of it.

I must say that this is part of his personality that made him able to endure torture for five years at the hands of the VietCong.
However, his failure to learn lessons is as sad as the alternative's repeated flip flops. Does he really believe that Hispanics are going to vote for him over any person of color, no matter what his positions are?
He really is spitting on the republican and conservative community with his wink wink, we'll pass the Immigration Bill, but Jesus, I just can't get those democrats to fund the Border Fence, or to make it a temporary program, or to get security checks, BUT it's a great and worthwhile bill nevertheless.
If there are any courageous Repub delegates out here reading this Board, you should just abstain. If there are eight hundred or nine hundred abstentions, on the first ballot, and the rest split for McCain Romney, maybe that would be enough of a lesson to show McCain he still has not clinched the deal. I would urge the same for Hillary supporters at the Dem Convention. We have two seriously flawed candidates who will do MAJOR damage to the country if elected. It's hard to determine who would be worse. Even a donkey if it gets hit on the butt or head often enough might think to itself, gee what can I do that won't get me hit on the head by my constituents(master)? McCain seems to glory in spitting on his constituents as if that makes him SUPERIOR/SMARTER/ INDEPENDENT.
Well there may be times for such 'independence' but on matters of national security and immigration security and energy security, the base is right and McCain is hopelessly off in left field with the Obamanation. I think at this point the base is seriously considering staying home and letting the liberals get their wish of destroying the country (We have to destroy the country in order to save it).
Two years might restore Repub majorities to the House and Senate and four years might actually bring up a center right conservative candidate and not a dem lite rino like McCain. A failed McCain candidacy might be a warning shot for others seeking to be NYSlimes 'bipartisan' (read liberal) candidates for President.
Unless he sincerely backtracks pronto, this may be first election I won't be voting for top of ticket in thirty years.

re: #97 MandyManners

Slight tweak.

Thank you! :)

re: #88 Spiny Norman

Oh, but remember, these construction jobs are jobs no American would ever take.

#66 Spiny Norman

And no, truly opposing illegal immigration does not mean rounding all 20 miilion of them up. Making it next to impossible for them to get work will encourage them to "self-deport". Something like a real identification that can't be easily faked and real penalties to employers who knowingly hire illegals.

you think? they will just go back? ok some will, but some will turn to crime instead.

I agree " real identification" is a solution. um.. thats what McCain offered!

I agree we need tough penalties for employers who knowingly hire illegals.

But the fact remains that we have a ton of illegals here and more on the way LIKE IT OR NOT. and unless your willing to round everyone up or just hope they leave we need a solution. and the only logical one is some kind of temporary status for the ones who want to be legal. and the ones who wont get the card, ones who commit crimes. round um up jail them ship them out whatever.

re: #99 leboaz

Work?!?!?!?!?
My alter ego, Maynard G. Krebs, wouldn't think of it.

My place of work was deserted at 3pm last Friday, first really nice weekend, and everyone flew the coop!

re: #96 Tigger2005

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrgggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhh

Why do you make this so hard, McCain?

I will have to bring a vomit bag to the polling station.

If there has been a Presidential election of the "lesser of two evils" kind, this is it.

Just prepeat after me, "Supreme Court nominees. War on Islamic Terror. Supreme Court nominees. War on Islamic Terror. Supreme Court nominees. War on Islamic Terror."

OT
Some cheerier news; not all Democrats are going to fall under the O spell:

"We also don't vote for sexist pigs, or empty suits, or inept lying gasbags. We also don't vote for people who change their positions every day or so. We also don't vote for Chicago thugs who steal nominations. And we don't vote for guys who whine and use the race card every time somebody tries to vet them. We don't take kindly to bullying either. That pretty much eliminates Comrade Obama."

[Link: hyper-educated-uppity-woman.blogspot.com...]

He seems to think the right`s fear of an Obama presidency gives him their votes and he can pander at will regardless of their dislike for his position of certain issues, I am afraid McCain is underestimating this one.

re: #23 Mich-again

I wonder if he will recognize the damage done to our economy by the flood of illegal workers who helped fuel the housing boom

I can't see how this makes sense. If something has a low price - in this case construction work - and people over-invest in it, those people made an error. Enough people making incautious investments will damage the economy, and that's their own fault (if that's what happened). You seem to be saying that prices should be fixed, and never allowed to fall in case over-investment happens.

re: #90 Rageman
"Voter registration cards with photo ID's"
There, fixed that for you!

Misunderestimating!

re: #15 mbruce

I don't think he does. He's cleary aiming for the "Latino Vote" with this. While I agree other things, such as TWOT and energy independence (ie. drill drill drill) should trump anything else, politically it makes a lot of sense. If he does well w/ that voting block, his election chances go up.

MCCain BUILD THE WALL FIRST!

re: #89 MandyManners

WTF?

I'm sorry if that's too extreme for you Mandy. But you might have had the courtesy to read the rest of my post before responding.

re: #107 gibsonz

He seems to think the right`s fear of an Obama presidency gives him their votes and he can pander at will regardless of their dislike for his position of certain issues, I am afraid McCain is underestimating this one.

Exactly - just look at 2006. The democrats didn't win, the GOP voters stayed home. It can easily happen again, and the feckless GOP leadership had better wake up fast. I will never vote for Obaminable, but I don't have to vote for McCain either, and I may not.

re: #89 MandyManners

WTF?

Sounds like a mind version of the Soviet Era boundary between East Germany and the West.

It would be very effective if one didn't mind all the women and children being torn to bits by the underfed attack dogs, or blown up by the land mines, or shredded by the automated machine guns. Thus rendering it a really bad evil idea.

Any fenced boundary can be crossed. Therefore the system should be designed to slow up the trespassers long enough for the border patrol to arrive and apprehend them.

re: #103 CactusJack

#66 Spiny Norman

you think? they will just go back? ok some will, but some will turn to crime instead.

Oh please. That is such bullshit. The illegal immigrant criminals were criminals beofre they got here.

I agree " real identification" is a solution. um.. thats what McCain offered!

After he made them all LEGAL. All of them. That's why everyone called it Amnesty.

I agree we need tough penalties for employers who knowingly hire illegals.

But the fact remains that we have a ton of illegals here and more on the way LIKE IT OR NOT. and unless your willing to round everyone up or just hope they leave we need a solution. and the only logical one is some kind of temporary status for the ones who want to be legal. and the ones who wont get the card, ones who commit crimes. round um up jail them ship them out whatever.

So the logical solution is to make them all legal and encourage another 20 million to come on over? And they will. So lets just wave the white flag...

Good grief.

re: #107 gibsonz

He seems to think the right`s fear of an Obama presidency gives him their votes and he can pander at will regardless of their dislike for his position of certain issues, I am afraid McCain is underestimating this one.

Well, he estimated me perfectly.

re: #103 CactusJack

#66 Spiny Norman

you think? they will just go back? ok some will, but some will turn to crime instead.

I agree " real identification" is a solution. um.. thats what McCain offered!

I agree we need tough penalties for employers who knowingly hire illegals.

But the fact remains that we have a ton of illegals here and more on the way LIKE IT OR NOT. and unless your willing to round everyone up or just hope they leave we need a solution. and the only logical one is some kind of temporary status for the ones who want to be legal. and the ones who wont get the card, ones who commit crimes. round um up jail them ship them out whatever.

We are not impotent. We can deal with this problem.
Our prisons are top heavy now with illegal felons.
Those that refuse to go home & turn to crime can join the others in the joint.
It is actually black mail if that would be a threat.
We are a soverign nation & we have a duty to protect that.

The truth is that a "fence" is never going to solve the illegal immigration problem. I spent years in Northern Mexico and South Texas, and have flown all along the border, and there is no way to fence that expanse. Worse, our Northern border is almost completely unguarded, and Mexicans do not need a visa to travel to Canada. We could totally seal the Southern border and still see Mexicans, and other Latins, arriving via Canada. What do we wan to do, turn the USA into a fortified country, like the USSR was? The answer is to gradually establish a verifiable "Citizens ID Card" and require that the applicant for a job be able to PROVE he can legally work in the USA before hiring. A U.S. passport will do, but for those who don't have a passport, the only substitute should be the ID card or a valid "Green Card" or immigration document allowing work in the USA. We are wasting money building fences that can never work effectively.

re: #114 The Other Les

Sounds like a mind version of the Soviet Era boundary between East Germany and the West.

It would be very effective if one didn't mind all the women and children being torn to bits by the underfed attack dogs, or blown up by the land mines, or shredded by the automated machine guns. Thus rendering it a really bad evil idea.

Any fenced boundary can be crossed. Therefore the system should be designed to slow up the trespassers long enough for the border patrol to arrive and apprehend them.

Fence in the high traffic areas, low traffic areas a plowed 30 ft strip to show crossings, electronic monitoring an frequent patrols.

Biggest thing we can internally is make it very painful for the employers of illegals. If they won't take the risk, the draw goes away and traffic will dwindle significantly.

re: #114 The Other Les

Sounds like a mind version of the Soviet Era boundary between East Germany and the West.

It would be very effective if one didn't mind all the women and children being torn to bits by the underfed attack dogs, or blown up by the land mines, or shredded by the automated machine guns. Thus rendering it a really bad evil idea.

Any fenced boundary can be crossed. Therefore the system should be designed to slow up the trespassers long enough for the border patrol to arrive and apprehend them.

Look, Les, you didn't read my whole post either. If we want to allocate 5-10% of our GNP to border protection, then by all means spent billions to harden the border enough to slow down the immigrants, so that one out of every 20 Americans can catch, detain, house, process and deport them.

Get your head out of your own ass.

This morning I understood why moving after the election is a valid idea.

Our immigration problem has been created by the super-rich in our own government and big business (the money cult tfk speaks of)
In 1990, the U.S. exported 500,000 metric tons of chicken overseas, while in the year 2000 that figure increased five-fold to 2,500,000, as China and Russia became the two largest consumers of U.S. chicken.

In this decade the Hispanic population in Shelbyville grows from 100 to 2,300, or 15% of the population. This growth pace is typical of numerous rural locations from North Carolina to Arkansas. As black and white workers moved up the economic ladder, Hispanics filled in the gap. Not all were in meat processing (poultry in the south, beef and pork in the Midwest). In North Carolina, for instance, 90% of farmworkers were Hispanic. Poultry towns absorbing large numbers of Hispanics were Shelbyville, TN, Roger, Arkansas, Russellville, Arkansas, and Duplin County, North Carolina (for turkeys).
This rush of Hispanics creates entrepreneurial opportunities.
1995 – 1998.
Leaving the employ of Tyson, Amador opens in Shelbyville a grocery, Los Tres Hermanos, He begins to sell fake social security cards and other fake documents. Two local police officers take notice. They contact the INS in 1997, who buy undercover fake IDs at the store. Amador is confronted, and agrees to work with INS officials. At a meeting in 1998 in the Tyson plant, Amador and an undercover agent are asked by a Tyson manager to provide 2,000 Guatemalian workers, and Amador is offered up to $200 per head as a “recruitment fee.”
By 2,000 Amador is doing so well off smuggling Hispanics that he has bought two stores, five houses, and several automobiles.
[Link: www.workingimmigrants.com...]

We dont necessarily need a fence but we need ......cajones!

re: #118 kenprice

The truth is that a "fence" is never going to solve the illegal immigration problem. I spent years in Northern Mexico and South Texas, and have flown all along the border, and there is no way to fence that expanse. Worse, our Northern border is almost completely unguarded, and Mexicans do not need a visa to travel to Canada. We could totally seal the Southern border and still see Mexicans, and other Latins, arriving via Canada. What do we wan to do, turn the USA into a fortified country, like the USSR was? The answer is to gradually establish a verifiable "Citizens ID Card" and require that the applicant for a job be able to PROVE he can legally work in the USA before hiring. A U.S. passport will do, but for those who don't have a passport, the only substitute should be the ID card or a valid "Green Card" or immigration document allowing work in the USA. We are wasting money building fences that can never work effectively.

Funny, where the fence was built, illegal border crossings dropped to near zero. Instead of the California border, they moved east to Arizona. Most of the border you're taking about is far too remote for the illegal immigrants to risk it. It would be suicidal. And none of these illegal border crossers have the means to travel to Canada, as they spent everything they have just to get to the southern US border.

re: #118 kenprice I agree with you about photo "Citizen" ID cards (though for obvious reasons the Dem's hate 'em -especially the Chicago Dems who wouldn't be able to vote the graveyards) but I disagree about the fence.
See Mexico's southern border - NOBODY gets through that border illegally. And while it may currently be possible for Mexicans to go to Canada and then enter the US, it ain't gonna happen - cost is too high and we could "lean" on Canada to stop that practice.
I think we do need some sort of verifiable legal workers (temporary) program, but we HAVE to stop the hemorraging at the Southern Borders.
We can't do it? What? We send men to the moon on a fairly routine basis now; we took over Afghanistan in six weeks while the then mighty Soviet Union couldn't do it in 10 years - we can do any damn thing we set our minds to and blocking the Southern border is one of 'em.
We are talking about National Sovereignty here, this is not a minor matter nor a "well they're here and they're gonna keep coming, fuck it there's nothing we can do" situation.

re: #119 jcm

Fence in the high traffic areas, low traffic areas a plowed 30 ft strip to show crossings, electronic monitoring an frequent patrols.

Biggest thing we can internally is make it very painful for the employers of illegals. If they won't take the risk, the draw goes away and traffic will dwindle significantly.

I think you're right on target. Fences and cracking down on employers do work in the communities that have tried it. The answer to the problem is going to vary from place to place. What's needed is a push and some funding from the federal government.

Authorized border fence.

re: #66 Spiny Norman

Because McCain wrote the fucking thing.

And no, truly opposing illegal immigration does not mean rounding all 20 miilion of them up. Making it next to impossible for them to get work will encourage them to "self-deport". Something like a real identification that can't be easily faked and real penalties to employers who knowingly hire illegals.

... so, you support a national ID card?

re: #119 jcm "Biggest thing we can internally is make it very painful for the employers of illegals."
BINGO! That's what I call hitting the nail on the head, but we need to stop the bleeding of illegals at our Southern Border too.
And yes, we can do both and we should.

But all y'all should remember that every single president since Eisenhower has made no serious effort at stopping illegal immigration. NONE OF 'EM.

re: #128 Irving
Don't want to answer for Spiny, but I sure do.

re: #57 jcm

In Seattle I'd gladly pull federal funding for police on this issue. SPD has orders not ask, not to cooperate with ICE. Until the moonbats of Seattle really feel some pain, they're aren't going to force city government to change on this issue.

I'm concerned about how much of Seattle will still be standing ...

Mew

re: #127 Ringo the Gringo How come nothing between El Paso and Del Rio? Do you know?

re: #128 Irving

Making it next to impossible for them to get work will encourage them to "self-deport".

They will never self-deport. Most have nothing to go back to, and many (if not most) have children who are American citizens.

Those of you who think they will self-deport obviously do not live in a border state.

With each passing day, it becomes more and more difficult to vote for McCain.

re: #132 realwest

How come nothing between El Paso and Del Rio? Do you know?

I don't know.

re: #90 Rageman

Voter registration cards, no welfare or perqs, teach school inEnglish, arrest employers. Problem solved.

If state legislatures throughout the nation did that, the illegals would also go home on their own. It's not unconstitutional for a state government to say "you have to prove you legally live here", is it?

Alternately, they could require employers to do the same, as part of a standard background check. The employers, to keep the EEOC off their backs, would do this to everyone. Legal citizens will be able to provide the documents as always; illegals would be turned away. If the employer hires the illegal--knowingly or unknowingly(to get that excuse off the table)--the state can hammer the employer with fines and jail time.

My thing is: if we shouldn't wait for the feds to give us hurricane relief, why should we wait for them to do something about the illegal issue? We--through state government--could do it ourselves.

What the feds can do is withdraw funding from federal programs in states where illegals think it's easy to obtain jobs and benefits. Hit state bureaucrats(in the liberal-controlled states) in their wallets, and they'll be more scorched-earth than General Sherman in Atlanta. The feds can reward the states that are actively working on the border issue.

Hammer the state legislatures as well as the feds, even as we...vote McCain.

Finally, Jose Padilla notwithstanding, illegal Mexicans don't want us dead for ideological reasons; thus, despite his being on a border state, McCain may not see the indirect threat of not locking down the borders clearly.

But if states themselves acted en masse to do what we want the federal government to do, the only thing that would stop the states is the US Supreme Court. If Congress tried to do anything to stop their states from building a fence, the whole of Congress would be shit-canned in favor of new conservative blood: win-win for us all even if Obama were elected (may it never happen!) at that point.

I think it is not as simple as "All Hispanic voters want is amnesty, so screw them, the GOP doesn't need their vote."

I think that when immigration started becoming so all-fired important, the GOP made a strategic mistake. Now, we all know that the illegal immigration issue is about respect for our laws, and getting in to the ER with our broken limbs in less than an hour than it is about the ethnicity of the illegals themselves. But if you think that people for whom this ethnicity is an issue (i.e. racists) weren't going to latch on to the movement, you are smoking something. The Republicans among the anti-illegal movement should have found the racists, thrown them under the bus, and backed over them a few times. But they didn't.

Now, because of the rhetorical excesses of some, Hispanic voters are less likely to trust that those who are anti-illegal-immigration are not also anti-Hispanic. So now, immigration reform had to become a key to luring them, as code language for "I am not anti-Hispanic."

Furthermore, to a certain extent Mexico has us over a barrel. We need law enforcement cooperation. We need fugitives from justice returned to us. We need a "beard" in a Latin America where the Castro regime still pays people to spread rumors about Americans adopting Latin American babies to sell for their organs. And speaking of Castro, we really, really don't need Mexico to fall for some "Bolivarian" Castro-and-Chavez-funded candidate. Illegal immigration has been the safety valve that has kept this from happening. When the Cuban regime falls, and Latin America has better things to do than demonize us yanqis, we can revisit the illegal immigration. Until then, I think we are stuck with the status quo.

re: #129 realwest

"Biggest thing we can internally is make it very painful for the employers of illegals."
BINGO! That's what I call hitting the nail on the head, but we need to stop the bleeding of illegals at our Southern Border too.
And yes, we can do both and we should.

But all y'all should remember that every single president since Eisenhower has made no serious effort at stopping illegal immigration. NONE OF 'EM.

Agree on enforcing the Reagan-amnesty bits on employers. There were supposed to be *teeth* in that amnesty.

Where enforcement is working, it's working *well*. That's why I'm less concerned with a physical barrier and more concerned with removing the jobs.

To get rid of the ants, first get rid of the food they're eating, eh?

Mew

re: #138 MijaCat Yeah, get rid of the food, but as long as employers will hire them, and we don't secure our borders, they'll keep coming back in larger and larger numbers, cause they don't have any future - or for that matter any present - in Mexico.

re: #13 jcm

Give illegals a limited time to get a green card, say 3 months

It's impossible to get a green card in 3 months.

Make no mistake; the fact that "immigration reform" has such a distorted meaning in our political lexicon, doesn't mean our immigration system doesn't need reform. It's a Kafkaesque nightmare.

re: #3 BlueCanuck

I really, really feel sorry for my fellow Americans. Your choices suck as bad as ours did in the mid-nineties.

"Blue" -

Sometimes I wonder if borrowing your PM Harper for 4 years might just be a good idea. Problem is, I doubt all 'y'all would give him up.

-S-

re: #138 MijaCat
And btw, where is it that enforcement is working well?

re: #140 Occasional Reader Why is it "impossible" to get a green card in three months?

re: #68 really grumpy big dog Johnson

The first and most logical choice is to tell Mexico

You're out of your freaking mind.

re: #143 realwest

Why is it "impossible" to get a green card in three months?

Processing time averages at about a year. Not much the applicant can do about it.

The immigration of workers to agribusiness and processing jobs here comes about because those businesses are selling their production globally. US produced chicken is imported to Venezuela, as an example, and is so cheap the domestic poultry businesses there have failed. Taxpayers here fund the social costs, corporate shareholders benefit. It's a global issue.

Leaving states in charge of determining who is "legal" to live here is a dangerous and unconstitutional precedent.

You are either here legally or illegally. I'm not for the wholesale deportation of every person who originally arrived illegally, but we simply cannot tolerate the continuance of that practice.

My voice won't count, because the big money interests only care about their own bottom line, and our country be damned.

Right to residency is not a states' issue.

re: #145 Occasional Reader Ah, but if we WANTED TO, couldn't WE speed up that processing time?
And with no disrespect intended my friend, even if we don't process green card applications in a timely manner, that doesn't mean we should allow illegal immigration.
And let's be honest - if we "reward" those 20 million folks here illegally, what does that say to the millions of folks who've tried to get here legally?

re: #32 goddessoftheclassroom

And make English the official language of the United States (by Constitutional Amendment if necessary).

I'm never sure what people mean when they say that. Effectively speaking, how would you make it more "official" than it already is?

Late to the thread, but I'd venture that McCain will lose one conservative voter for every Latino voter he gains with talking about resurrecting that ridiculous immigration/amnesty bill. *rolls eyes skyward*

#115 Spiny Norman

So the logical solution is to make them all legal and encourage another 20 million to come on over? And they will. So lets just wave the white flag...

Good grief.

I'm sorry I just don't get this. they are already here and more are on the way. we cant build a giant fence across the whole border. so if you give the ones who want to work a way to come over legally with temp status that frees up the border patrol to focus on criminal elements trying to sneak in.

kinda mind boggling to me why McCain is bashed about this. Regain did actual amnesty, everyone else has done nothing. I applaud McCain and Bush for trying to come up with a logical solution.

re: #146 jaunte Juante, it goes waaay beyond agribusiness - illegals are a HUGE part of the construction workforce in the US (some estimates I've seen in North Carolina are that illegal or "undocumented" workers make up to 48% of the laborers in the construction industry.
Let's face it, if we are serious about protecting our national sovereignty then we HAVE to go after every employer who hires illegals and if that means having national photo ID's I'm all for it. And if it means higher prices across the board, I'm all for it.
It is just fucking absurd that the United States of America cannot or is unwilling to protect it's borders.

re: #148 realwest

It says "You're a sucker for taking the law seriously." As a small business owner who has jumped through the legal hoops and paid some expensive legal fees for years, sponsoring a couple of green card employees, I'd like to see some recompense for the time and trouble of following the law.

re: #152 realwest

I'm curious about where the legal workforce went. I know the market for agribusiness expanded globally, but why so much construction?

re: #148 realwest

Ah, but if we WANTED TO, couldn't WE speed up that processing time?
And with no disrespect intended my friend, even if we don't process green card applications in a timely manner, that doesn't mean we should allow illegal immigration.
And let's be honest - if we "reward" those 20 million folks here illegally, what does that say to the millions of folks who've tried to get here legally?

You read all sorts of things into my post that weren't there. I merely observed that, right now, demanding that someone obtain a green card in 3 months is a fantasy. Could "we" do it faster... well, sure, I suppose; like I said, the system is pretty messed up and could use plenty of "reform".
(And of course, having 20 million"path to citizenship" illegals trying to prove that "I'm the Juan Perez that appears on this gas bill from 1998" isn't exactly going to make the system any smoother.)

re: #149 Occasional Reader

I'm never sure what people mean when they say that. Effectively speaking, how would you make it more "official" than it already is?

"O-R" -

Whaddabout stopping the publishing of government documents in languages other than English for a start. Were I in Mexico, I would just assume official documents would be Spanish Only. Miguel, if you are there, please advise.

-S-

re: #151 CactusJack Uh, "if you give the ones who want to work a way to come over legally with temp status that frees up the border patrol to focus on criminal elements trying to sneak in." Assuming, arguendo that you could accomplish that - giving those who want to come here with temp status - what do you do with the 20 million or so who are already here illegally?
And what does that say to the millions of folks who've patiently been waiting to enter this country legally?
And a big part of REAGAN's policy was to clamp down on employers of illegal immigrants. Are you ro that? Are you in favor of a national photo ID?

re: #151 CactusJack

I would like us all to continue this debate, but for the purposes of a campaign, this is divisive. What the Senator needs to do is discuss issues that are inclusive- that will draw people to his banner... like American oil for American cars. More refineries. Americans want their gas costs to come down. If McCain would speak to this, people will be motivated to vote for him.

I will write this again: McCain is a disaster!

There is very little difference between his policies and Obama's policies.

I believe, without any tangible evidence, other than my own gut instinct and what Rush Limbaugh said about the DIMO cross over vote in the early RINO primaries, that the fix was in for McCain to become the RINO Pres candidate. From what I can deduce, there was very little support for McCain from the Rep base. My question is: how did he so easily become the front runner early in the primaries? When McCain became the front runner did anyone note that the Rep base was far from enthusiastic and that the base was mostly puzzled? I believe that there was collusion between the RINOS and the DIMOS so that McCain would be the Rep Pres candidate. Logically it was a win, win for the DIMOS because there is very little difference between his goals and Obama's goals.

When the North American Union comes about in a couple of years (2010) the US as a country will be kaput! This is another global government dream that Bush, the DIMOS and the RINOS have made a reality!

At the risk of being labeled negative and a purveyor of gloom and doom...I will state again that we have run out of time! Political correctness, the divide among the populace, the news media, the actions of the politicians and the judiciary have all contributed to our coming demise.

Was this a great country or what!

re: #155 Occasional Reader Well I may have extended the thoughts expressed in your comment to logical conclussions and questions, but I didn't "read" anything into it.
How do you feel about fining employers of illegal workers? I mean SERIOUS fines?
How do you feel about a National Photo ID Card?
You're absolutely correct when you say the current system is pretty messed up - indeed I think it's beyond the patch and fix type of "repairing" and needs serious approaches to protecting our National Borders.
And I do agree with GBDJ that issues of citizenship and who is allowed across the borders and sanctuary cities are NOT or at least SHOULD NOT be a matter for States to decide for themselves.
Note, please I do not agree with GBDJ's ideas of how to contol the flow of illegals, however.

re: #156 Dr. Shalit

"O-R" -

Whaddabout stopping the publishing of government documents in languages other than English for a start. Were I in Mexico, I would just assume official documents would be Spanish Only. Miguel, if you are there, please advise.

-S-

Actually, I'm guessing some things are published in Mexico in Nahuatl.

Anyway.

Depends on what you mean by "government documents". As is, the Congressional Record, all Federal court decisions, the Federal Register, are all published in English only (AFAIK). If you mean that documents related to social services should be published in English only... great-sounding idea, until it hits the wall of putting it in practice.

re: #158 Sharmuta Sharm - "I would like us all to continue this debate, but for the purposes of a campaign, this is divisive."
It would appear that this is indeed "divisive" but you should note that it was the presumptive Republican nominee for POTUS who brought it up again yesterday.
Do I think that, politically, it was dumb of him to do it? Yes. Do I think he should focus more on the GWoT and the economy? Yes. But McCain CHOSE to bring this up; not discussing it won't make it go away.

There is just too much at stake, including a Second Amendment that hangs by a single USSC vote for me not to end up voting for McCain. And I would rather fight McCain tooth and nail over Amnesty than fight Obama who would do so much other damage. But money that ordinarily would go to winning the election for the Republican nominee is going to groups who will help us fight Amnesty, regardless of who is in the White House.

McCain is just appalling as a choice but the alternative is still worse.

I worked with a Mexican immigrant last year in the woods falling timber. He and I talked about this several times. He was on the path to citizenship, studying after work every night at the local community college, especially English, which he described as "very hard". He asked me if I resented working with him, as some of the other workers were very pissed (lay-offs all the time, hordes of illegals working off the books, a very depressed area with a poor job market, wages at the same rate as the early 80's). I told him truthfully that I was furious about being undercut in the job market, especially at an older age with limited options, but I reserved my fury for a government that wouldn't enforce its laws and chiseling employers that evade the law and lower standards for everyone, but I refused to take it out on people with enough gumption to better their lives through honest labor.

This is where it got interesting. He said he respected what I told him, but he was just as mad about the situation. He was going the legal route and it made him feel like an idiot for doing so when his honesty put him at a disadvantage with newly arrived illegals that had no intention of US citizenship. He also clued me in on the tensions within the Hispanic community, apparently there is bad blood between the Mexican, Guatemalan and El Salvadoran ethnicities, which in our area has sometimes led to violence. "Americans see them all as Mexicans".

I told him we'll get along fine as long as you're safe to work with (extremely dangerous work) and don't kill me off. Turns out he was an excellent worker, safe to work around and I told him I preferred working with him than some of the younger Americans, who sometimes tended to take shortcuts and could be a little hazardous. We're on piece work, separated by terrain , draws , ridges and such (by the thousand board feet for timber cut). I really didn't care to have someone fall a tree on me because they were in too big a hurry to check where the "other" guy is at, which has happened too many times to other workers.

To end this story, this great guy was killed in the woods last fall when a limb fell out of a tree and smashed his head. He left a beautiful young wife and a 6 year old son behind. I wish guys like him that took the time to study after work and assimilate would get on the fast track ahead of the illegals that are hurting his type just as much as laboring Americans, and employers that chiseled and fooled around with the law would get hammered big time. I could not care less about race, illegal Swedish immigrants under-cutting me wouldn't make me jump for joy. I would like guys like this to get a break, the rest, not so much.

re: #159 1 US Sheeple
"When the North American Union comes about in a couple of years (2010) the US as a country will be kaput! This is another global government dream that Bush, the DIMOS and the RINOS have made a reality!"
Excuse me, but you have really taken a long walk off a short pier - please swim back, dry off and think about this again.
Or vote for Bob Barr.

so McCain feels the 8% Hispanic vote plus a few corporate farmers is more important than 70% of the rest of America. Dumb. Because contrary to what his mother says I do not have to hold my nose and vote for him.

re: #128 Irving

... so, you support a national ID card?

Tamper-proof State ID cards, like Driver Licenses. I also think people should provide a State-issued picture ID to vote, too.

You don't oppose those, do you? That isn't too much Big Government intrusion.

re: #166 pat I know full well from all of your prior comments how important illegal immigration is to you. And frankly it's very important to me too.
But we both need to face reality here - as bad as McCain is on a whole host of issues, he is VASTLY more preferable than Obama. Not voting for McCain isn't necessarily a vote for Obama, but it sure as hell makes it easier for Obama to be our next POTUS.
And with a Congress thoroughly controlled by the Dems.

re: #167 Spiny Norman
Hey Spiny! What's wrong with National ID cards as opposed to those issued by each state?

re: #159 1 US Sheeple

When the North American Union comes about in a couple of years (2010) the US as a country will be kaput!

Trooferism is not just confined to the Troofers, I see.

re: #170 Occasional Reader Really. See my #165. What the hell is it about these wierd and totally unsubstantiated rumors that attracts so many people?

re: #160 realwest

How do you feel about fining employers of illegal workers? I mean SERIOUS fines?
How do you feel about a National Photo ID Card?

Mixed feelings about the heavy fines. There are definitely employers who are abusing the system. But I can also see innocent employers being caught up in this. There's a lot to think about when you're asking ordinary citizens to become auxiliary law enforcement (and punishing them for not doing it right).

And while I understand the libertarian/federalist concerns about a national ID card, I think we probably have to go there.

re: #170 Occasional Reader

I guess it is also not confined to Congress ?
[Link: www.govtrack.us...]
Expressing the sense of Congress that the United States should not engage in the construction of a North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) Superhighway System or enter into a North American Union with Mexico and Canada.

The Republicans are fracturing badly and McLame continues to fiddle as the party burns. I fear that the Repubs are going to take a big hit in the House and Senate and McLame is doing his best to shoot for the trifecta.

My goodness, he can win this thing by appealing to his core constituency, conservatives and Regan demoncrats - a strategy that he continues to ignore. What is this idiot thinking? By out-liberaling liberals that he will somehow engender some sympathy votes from Kos-types? Will someone invent that $300M battery quickly so that we can plug his brain in.

SIGH.

re: #164 JHW

What a tragic story. I feel so sorry for his family.

I've met a few like him (legal immigrants and native-born children of legal immigrants) who related some of the same frustrations. They moved out to where I'm at (SoCal High Desert) to get away from the overcrowding and constant petty crime in traditionally Hispanic neighborhoods in the LA-San Gabriel-Pomona areas.

re: #173 yegor

I guess it is also not confined to Congress ?
[Link: www.govtrack.us...]
Expressing the sense of Congress that the United States should not engage in the construction of a North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) Superhighway System or enter into a North American Union with Mexico and Canada.

Um, that would be one Congressman (who introduced the bill), not "Congress". And hey, we have individual Troofer Congressmen, too, don't we? (Rep. McKinney)

“We have to secure our borders—that’s the message,” McCain said. “But we also must proceed with a temporary worker program that is verifiable and truly temporary.”

I'm not sure exactly what the problem with this is. Apparently, it's a big secret, but the border fence is moving right along.

Border fence will skirt environmental laws

In an aggressive move to finish building 670 miles of border fence by the end of this year, the Department of Homeland Security announced today that it will waive federal environmental laws to meet that goal.

The two waivers, which will allow the department to slash through a thicket of environmental and cultural laws, would be the most expansive to date, encompassing land in California, New Mexico, Arizona and Texas that stretches about 470 miles.

The waivers are highly controversial with environmentalists and border communities, which see them as a federal imposition that could damage the land and disrupts wildlife.

But they are praised by conservatives who championed the 2006 Secure Fence Act, despite the reluctance of President Bush, who has said a broader approach is needed to deal with illegal immigration.

Republicans greeted the news with satisfaction.

/after that, what's the problem with "a temporary worker program that is verifiable and truly temporary"?

re: #157 realwest

Assuming, arguendo that you could accomplish that - giving those who want to come here with temp status - what do you do with the 20 million or so who are already here illegally?

give them some time to apply. it would pull all the honest ones out of the wood work.

And what does that say to the millions of folks who've patiently been waiting to enter this country legally?

- they can apply too if they want to come to work. Their legal status would still be on hold until their are truly legal.

And a big part of REAGAN's policy was to clamp down on employers of illegal immigrants. Are you ro that?

I agree, we should have a strong employer hiring policy. No one without a temp card, verified in a national database for tracking.

Are you in favor of a national photo ID?

for temporary workers yes, and maybe a state tag.

re: #177 Killian Bundy

/after that, what's the problem with "a temporary worker program that is verifiable and truly temporary"?

After reading his statement that was also the thought that went through my mind. I never objected to the concept of immigration reform, just the BS of granting citizenship to people that refuse to obey our laws.

re: #169 realwest

Hey Spiny! What's wrong with National ID cards as opposed to those issued by each state?

We have a National ID - Social Security. But I think the kind of picture ID we're talking about is a State responsibility, just like Driver Licenses. States seem to be better at policing these things, too. Fake or stolen Social Security numbers are much easier to obtain than a convincing fake Driver License, especially the ones with magnetic strips that can be scanned to verify their authenticity.

re: #175 Spiny Norman

I've heard the same from some native Hispanics. This young man I worked with was probably in his mid-30s. He is about the 4th I've known in the last 5 years that were killed in the woods, all legal immigrants or at least trying to get US citizenship via studying, etc. Apparently there is a location in Michoachan where the word is out, most of these guys were from the same general area and seemed to know each other and their families. I mentioned one time to one of them that Mexico was making a big mistake exporting its most ambitious people and retaining those that perhaps didn't quite have the same drive to succeed. Not a very wise course for a country to advance in the modern world.

re: #174 Bubbaman

The Republicans are fracturing badly and McLame continues to fiddle as the party burns. I fear that the Repubs are going to take a big hit in the House and Senate and McLame is doing his best to shoot for the trifecta.

SIGH.

Maybe the reason is because people like you are fracturing it with stupid shit like "mclame". your you think about the consequences of an Obama presidency are also realize that you probably don't agree with McCain on everything, but but grief dude look at the whole picture.

It's like standing in line on the Titanic and being given the last life ring, the leaky one with the yellow duck's head.

Man, what a lack of choices this election, huh?

}:)     [Is Nader going to run this time, maybe on a ticket with Ron Paul?]

re: #46 Truesoldier

we will continue to let illegals work until we can give them all amnesty.

Really?

/maybe you should pay more attention to current events, the crackdown has been going on now for about a year

re: #181 JHW

...I mentioned one time to one of them that Mexico was making a big mistake exporting its most ambitious people and retaining those that perhaps didn't quite have the same drive to succeed. Not a very wise course for a country to advance in the modern world.

But the money sent home to Mexico by immigrant workers in the US (legal and illegal) is the country's second largest source of foreign income, after oil. The Mexican government wants that money to keep coming. I don't think they give any thought to the long-term consequences.

The 'McCain for Obama Campaign' - great, this'll bring out the already totally disgusted Repub's by the groves.

re: #185 Spiny Norman

Yes, you're right, they seem fixated on the short term, and the kind of people they're exporting (generally young and ambitious) might be the ones to cause social problems in Mexico out of frustration with stagnant opportunities to better themselves.

re: #186 aboo-Hoo-Hoo
Hello my friend! I don't think I understand your post. It seems to me that McCain is being, at least for a politician, honest and straightforward - this is the same amnesty bill he fought for in the Senate.
And I don't think it's a ploy to try to get the Latino American votes, either.
Of course, we'll find out for sure where Obama stands on this (and virtually every other item in our nations interest) only AFTER he gets elected (God forbid).

Of course, the best solution for illegal immigration is for Latin America to get a lot richer, so that emigration slows down. Generally speaking, people stay home when they can put food on the table.

re: #187 JHW

Yes, you're right, they seem fixated on the short term, and the kind of people they're exporting (generally young and ambitious) might be the ones to cause social problems in Mexico out of frustration with stagnant opportunities to better themselves.

That, too. Every poor Mexican citizen working in the US is one less poor Mexican citizen the Mexican government has to provide for. It's far easier for them to export their poorest 15% north of the border than to tackle the massive and crippling corruption and incompetence that keeps a country with a wealth of natural resources in a Third World economic status.

We have to give Mexico and the Mexican workers a vested
interest. This can be done by splitting the social security tax.
3 percent to the worker in a bank account ,they can access money
that is five years old
3 percent to the state
3 percent to the federal government
3 percent to the Mexican government

Workers would be allowed to work here five years and go back to
Mexico for 1 year. Because I worry about the Mexican families with
no young fathers because they are all working in the US.
As far as documentation, you'd need a fingerprint system that
returns a Work permit # or social security number. The Mexican government can issues the permits with the help of the US,
this is part of what the 3 percent would cover. I get the 12 percent
because I believe the employer contributes 6 and the employee 6, but I may be mistaken on that.

re: #159 1 US Sheeple

At the risk of being labeled negative and a purveyor of gloom and doom...I will state again that we have run out of time! Political correctness, the divide among the populace, the news media, the actions of the politicians and the judiciary have all contributed to our coming demise.

THE SKY IS FALLING!

/when in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout

One more thing: remember "the giant sucking sound" of jobs going south of the border to Mexico? They didn't go to Mexico, did they? They went to China. Why is that? Labor isn't all that more expensive in Mexico than in China, and shipping costs have to be much less. Was it graft, incompetence and just plain stupidity in the Mexican government?

re: #190 Spiny Norman

Well put Spiny...fixing the corruption in Mexico is no easy task but it can be done.

re: #176 Occasional Reader

Hey there were 48 co sponsors :
Cosponsors [as of 2008-06-15]
Rep. Michele Bachmann [R-MN]
Rep. Spencer Bachus [R-AL]
Rep. Rob Bishop [R-UT]
Rep. John Boozman [R-AR]
Rep. Nancy Boyda [D-KS]
Rep. Paul Broun [R-GA]
Rep. Barbara Cubin [R-WY]
Rep. David Davis [R-TN]
Rep. Jo Ann Davis [R-VA]
Rep. Lincoln Davis [D-TN]
Rep. John Duncan [R-TN]
Rep. Terry Everett [R-AL]
Rep. Virginia Foxx [R-NC]
Rep. Trent Franks [R-AZ]
Rep. Scott Garrett [R-NJ]
Rep. Kirsten Gillibrand [D-NY]
Rep. John Gingrey [R-GA]
Rep. Samuel Graves [R-MO]
Rep. Dean Heller [R-NV]
Rep. Duncan Hunter [R-CA]
Rep. Darrell Issa [R-CA]
Rep. Walter Jones [R-NC]
Rep. Marcy Kaptur [D-OH]
Rep. Steven LaTourette [R-OH]
Rep. Frank Lucas [R-OK]
Rep. Kenny Marchant [R-TX]
Rep. James Marshall [D-GA]
Rep. Thaddeus McCotter [R-MI]
Rep. Gary Miller [R-CA]
Rep. Jeff Miller [R-FL]
Rep. Jerry Moran [R-KS]
Rep. Tim Murphy [R-PA]
Rep. Sue Myrick [R-NC]
Rep. Charles Norwood [R-GA]
Rep. Ronald Paul [R-TX]
Rep. John Peterson [R-PA]
Rep. Ted Poe [R-TX]
Rep. Ralph Regula [R-OH]
Rep. Bill Sali [R-ID]
Rep. James Saxton [R-NJ]
Rep. Heath Shuler [D-NC]
Rep. Clifford Stearns [R-FL]
Rep. Bart Stupak [D-MI]
Rep. John Sullivan [R-OK]
Rep. Thomas Tancredo [R-CO]
Rep. Patrick Tiberi [R-OH]
Rep. Zach Wamp [R-TN]
Rep. Rob Wittman [R-VA]

re: #193 Spiny Norman

One more thing: remember "the giant sucking sound" of jobs going south of the border to Mexico? They didn't go to Mexico, did they?

I think those particular jobs are mostly in Thailand.

I'm not an American. I'm British.

I don't understand. I'm not taking the mickey; I really don't understand. Can someone please explain in words of one syllable what's wrong with people who want to work coming to America?

I get there's a problem with people breaking the law, but why is it illegal in the first place?

re: #193 Spiny Norman

"Graft, incompetence and just plain stupidity" gets my vote. I'm an investor in an agribusiness startup, intended for the interior of the Yucatan peninsula near Merida. Required permitting includes survey for Mayan artifacts and sites; the surveyor 'found' 300 sites on 120 acres, and needed about $500,000 to override the problem. The project and its 80 jobs is relocating to Belize.

re: #194 gibsonz

Well put Spiny...fixing the corruption in Mexico is no easy task but it can be done.

Vicente Fox was supposed to be a reformer. But what does he do when he won the election, the first time in 70 years the the PRI lost? He dumps all of the pro-free-market, pro-US PAN people he'd surrounded himself with and filled his Cabinet with long-time PRI bureaucrats, the same fools that were there before. What the hell happened? Did the PRI "make him an offer he couldn't refuse"?

This sad stupid old man still thinks AMNESTY is the way to go.

Did something break with our current perfectly good and totally unused immigration laws?

It's no wonder he is meeting with people in a closet.

re: #193 Spiny Norman

Was it graft, incompetence and just plain stupidity in the Mexican government?

that is the real problem. real shame. I bet most who come here would prefer to stay if their government wasn't such a joke. That's who we should be raising our voices in protest with.

re: #197 po8crg

I get there's a problem with people breaking the law, but why is it illegal in the first place?

It's not. If you come here legally, you're welcome.

/sovereign countries have a vested interest in controlling their borders and keeping track of exactly who is coming in and going out

McCain and others like him find the concept of fairness in immigration incomprehensible. The simple "comprehensive" solution: Eliminate automatic birth citizenship like every other country in the world and allow fair and balanced access to U.S. privileges, rather than allow any one demographic an excessive share. No roundups, no fence, but plenty of work visas, biometric ID's and severe enforcement on employers. To make it even easier, legalize "drugs", at least to the extent of alcohol and tobacco. The "war" on drugs is a joke, and serves the purposes of organized crime.

Mexico should be one of the richest nations in the world, compared to most countries they're loaded with natural resources, unlike much of Asia and Europe, Eastern Europe in particular. Years and years ago I said enforcing the laws at the employer end was the best way to get a handle on this, the government has to show it's serious by at least improving the fence as a symbolic measure, even though it would be less effective than enforcing our labor laws.

In the 80's I was contracting (logging) to a fortune 500 company and in discussion on rates, off the record, I was told to do as everyone else, hire illegals off the books. There was no way I could compete with a business that did not pay state industrial insurance at $12/hour per worker, to say nothing of the Federal taxes, when I had to. Margins were paper thin enough without chiseling involved. Our government is failing in its duty to enforce the laws impartially. Some of these larger companies hide behind the contractor/corporation relationship and contract to absolve themselves of legal responsibility. "We told them to do everything legally. See, it's here in the contract, It's not our fault." Wink, wink.

I will write this again: McCain is a disaster!

There is very little difference between his policies and Obama's policies
>

Of course there is a difference, the difference between "BAD" and "EVEN WORSE" -- which of course is much sharper than the difference between "GOOD" and "BETTER".

If you think that there's no differene, go ahead and stay home on election day, or (worse) vote for Obama.

And eat every single day of his presidency like the shit it will be, and swallow every mouthful, as YOU helped make it possible.

re: #202 Killian Bundy

It's not. If you come here legally, you're welcome.

So some average Mexican can turn up at a US consulate and say "Mr. Consul, I would like to go to the US and work on a farm" and he'll given a visa and a work permit?

Yeah, and I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. Why shouldn't the answer to that question be: "Sure son. If you wanna work hard, welcome to the USA."?

I'm serious - it's not like you have an overpopulation problem like we do.

re: #188 realwest

Hey real, how ya doin? My point was simple, McCain--throughout the years--has pissed-off so many GoP members, by the money-flows(or lack thereof) into the GoP/McCain coffer's, it seems pretty obvious they've no support for the candidate or Party. I believe when they/you/us/we hear garbage like this it does nothing more than reinforces the negative - to sit home and not vote or worse, vote for Obama out of plain, nasty spite.

Maybe someone in McCain's campaign team should suggest he have his Left-arm amputated, that way he couldn't reach across the friggin aisle. ;)

re: #207 aboo-Hoo-Hoo
Ah now I get it - you weren't really responding to this Amnesty plan, you were responding to McCain and his basic credentials as a Republican!
Well I'm being totally honest with you my friend, McCain wasn't my first or even second choice for the Republican Presidential nomination.
OTOH, the simple and ugly fact is that if we don't vote for him, it's either a vote for Obama or, perhaps more accurately, one less vote that Obama has to overcome.
And absolutely NOTHING terrifies me more than an Obama presidency. NOTHING. Obama is a true "empty suit"and is probably the least experienced and most ill suited individual I can conceive of running this country. Seriously.
It is manifest that he doesn't like or even respect America and his wife has admitted (never mind the late back tracking on this) that she's ashamed to be an American.
Nope, as correct as you are about McCain, there's simply no choice in this election: at the very least, there is no doubt at all that John McCain loves and respects America; Obama doesn't. Case closed.

re: #197 po8crg

Um, nothing wrong with people coming here to work legally. When they sneak accross the border by the millions, don't pay taxes, soak up benefits and don't learn the language, its a problem.

Politicians and shady businesses love illegal immigrants because they both see gains in taking advantage of them. Potential new voters for the pols - or actual voters because the Dems oppose actually requiring any form of ID to vote and actively work to register them as legal voters. Businesses love illegals because they can pay them lower wages under the table and avoid the taxes that come with legal workers. That's also why both love the current "look the other way policy" because it creates a permanent underclass to take advantage of.

re: #206 po8crg

Welcome if you obey our laws, not if you work off the books and undercut US citizens and legal immigrants. The area I live in has many,many Southeast Asian immigrants from the time of the Vietnam War in the seafood industry. They're as hard workers as anyone, work on piece work, sometimes at lower wages than average, but they've been decimated by illegal off the books competition.Your hypothetical worker showing up at a US consulate wouldn't be admitting that he would be disobeying US labor laws and competing unfairly with those that obey the law. Every country has the right to control its borders and determine its own labor laws. It's not that worker's prerogative to determine which laws he'll choose to obey. Every country has a right and duty to protect its own citizens first, regardless of the wants and desires of a would be immigrant. If US workers can't be obtained, by all means admit foreign labor, but in a controlled, legal manner, not willy-nilly.Sovereignty does mean something,even Mexico controls its own southern border from Central American illegal immigration. And if you don't believe that US labor has been badly hurt by illegal, off the books, lower labor standard illegals, you don't understand the anger over this issue,especially in economically distressed rural areas. Legal immigrants are hurt as hard as anyone by this.

Gotta hand it to him. They guy's really figured out how to rise above the rest in the Democrat party.

Call yourself a Republican.

re: #206 po8crg That's EXACTLY how it is supposed to work. What we don't want is single woman coming here, just to drop their babies on American soil, and then start claiming welfare benefits, etc. There are rules to follow. SOme may not like them, but they are there for a reason. Also, not all that come here do so for work. We don't need their gangs members here, we are fighting our own gangs.

And the billions of dollars we just gave Mexico to secure THEIR border and fight drug trafficking.....funny but they wouldn't take it unless we removed certain language from it. They claimed that some of our "stipulations" violated THEIR sovreignity.

See here for MEXICO'S immigration laws and then ask your question again:

[Link: www.citizensforaconstitutionalrepublic.com...]

I don't know why McCain thinks this will help with Hispanic voters-

Of the Mexican Americans I know, 90% are against illegals, with the exception of those whose who are first generation (2/30, or a tenth of them), or middle class Hispanics whose incomes are directly boosted from serving illegal populations(1/30)

This shouldn't be surprising, as illegals are not just competing for the a lot of the same jobs, but driving down wages for everybody in those industries (10-14% average wage loss - dept.labor)

So why don't you hear more Mexican American voices in opposition to illegal immigration?
-Those who do speak out are ignored by the media
-Most won't speak out, IMHO, because the racial side of this is fully exploited by the proponents of illegal immigration.

I have heard some variation of the following statement form at least 10 Mexican Americans:
"Thank God that history worked so that we live on this side of the border"

I don't know if McCain thinks that the commies of La Raza/Mecha will vote for him over the Obamessiah, but he is not going to be getting a lot of the Hispanic vote just by pandering to those that will drive down the wages of the majority of them.

re: #6 Mich-again

Well that campaign strategy might work if all the illegals could vote for him.

Except they'll vote for Obama anyway.

Hmmmm...still not a deal breaker for me, considering BHO's wackyness. GWB tired to push some form of amnesty and kept getting shot down by Congress, so i'm not real worried.

re: #75 phoenixgirl

Hopelessly optimistic, I guess.

re: #105 Spiny Norman

If there has been a Presidential election of the "lesser of two evils" kind, this is it.

Just repeat after me, "Supreme Court nominees. War on Islamic Terror. Supreme Court nominees. War on Islamic Terror. Supreme Court nominees. War on Islamic Terror."

I am very disappointed to see people here "fall in line" behind McCain though it leaves such a bad taste in their mouths. Many of you keep saying your going to "hold your nose while pulling the lever for McCain." Not me.

I am a Conservative first and foremost. I have voted and donated Republican ever since President Reagan ran for his second term. After many questionable liberal stances by the current Republican Party, I changed my registration to Independent. The last straw came after the immigration amnesty fiasco sponsored by McCain, Bush, and my Senator Martinez. I didn't leave the Republican Party; they left me.

Conservatives have no candidate in this presidential election. There are 3 liberals running right now (Don’t count Hillary as gone yet). Why should I or any other Conservative sell our values and souls to vote for the liberal you are supporting named John McCain? You may say it's because of potential Supreme Court vacancies, but you are not thinking it through. No matter who is elected, they are all 3 liberals and will nominate liberals to the Supreme Court. Do you seriously think, after all these years of McCain sleeping with the democrats, he will suddenly appoint Conservatives to the Supreme Court if he's president? Get real! He will probably depend on Ted Kennedy (if he’s still alive) to provide him with the list of potential judges. Those potential Supreme Court seats are already reserved for liberal judges, no matter who gets elected in 2008.

Conservatives have been shut out of this race, and I for one, am not going to be the Republican’s obedient lap dog and vote for whomever they want to be president. My money will stay in my wallet except to fund opposition to Senator Mel Martinez’s reelection. Remember, we are Conservatives, not Republicans, democrats, or any other party. Maybe the critics ought to take time to reflect as to what they themselves are: Conservatives or blind, obedient Republicans?

It's going to be a rough 4 years for the USA no matter who gets elected.

re: #217 Random63

Going over the cliff, flags flying, is still going over the cliff.

/Ronald Wilson Reagan

re: #217 Random63

It's going to be a rough 4 years for the USA no matter who gets elected.

And it'll take decades to un[expletive deleted] the Supreme Court if Obama gets elected.

/think about that while you're smugly sitting on your high horse watching your taxes skyrocket

McCain said:

...we must also understand that there are 12 million people who are here and they are here illegally and they are God’s children, they are God’s children and they will be treated in a humane ....

Wow! What a non sequitur! By his logic, all prisoners on death row are also "God's children," and should be treated in a humane fashion.

McCain's elevator does not go all the way up.

Why do we need to treat illegal child murderers in a humane fashion?

More to the point, Senator, are not native born Americans and LEGAL immigrants ALSO "God's children" in your view of the grand scheme of things? Why do you appear so nonchalant about treating US in a humane (and just) fashion.

Senator: Your pandering is not to your credit.

re: #217 Random63

By the way, people like you, who were determined to "teach the Republicans a lesson" in 2006, are directly responsible for saddling us with Leader Pelosi.

/how's that lesson working out?

re: #221 Killian Bundy

well, gas is up!/

Sometimes I wonder if McCain isn't secretly working for the Obama campaign

re: #223 kawfytawk

According to wackos like Cactus Jack, it's my fault not McLame's.

We all know McCain! He is a big, stubburn bulldog. He gets an idea stuck in his cranium an he is fixated. But, what to do? The Republican party long ago decided it was his turn.

re: #225 littleO

I wonder if it truly was the "republican" party that decided. I think dem crossovers decided our candidate so they can have a dem lite in office should their pick fail.....kind of a win-win for dems. I know my primary vote here in Texas didn't count for squat.

re: #66 Spiny Norman

Because McCain wrote the fucking thing.

And no, truly opposing illegal immigration does not mean rounding all 20 miilion of them up. Making it next to impossible for them to get work will encourage them to "self-deport". Something like a real identification that can't be easily faked and real penalties to employers who knowingly hire illegals.

Ditto! Couldn't have said it better myself. Is Cactus Jack a troll or worse? The hell we can't stop illegals.....anybody that says otherwise is the worst kind of appeaser. This is a good start - let's encourage this kind of stuff. McCain hits me for money too but, I am fresh out for appeasing mf'ers who don't have the best interest of the United States of America at heart. I don't give a fat flying f#$* about Mexico - they don't care about us - only how much dough they can milk us for. My job went there and nobody cried - Ross Perot despite being a crackpot was very right about the giant sucking sound but nobody says anything about stopping that now do they? Not in business interest eh? Fuck them all if they don't care about OUR interests they can all go to hell. You know, I really didn't like McCain before but decided I would hold my nose and vote for him but, that is getting much harder with every squawk that comes out of that old trap. John, take some advice - shut your trap and let your wife do the talking - she is better looking and apparently smarter than you!

McCain is the biggest idiot the Republicans have ever put up as a candidate for president. It almost hands a victory to the Democrats in November. I thought Dole was a stupid move by them...well,it was...but this is even worse than Dole. The Republican Party can kiss it's butt goodbye as being worth anything to real Conservatives if the sellout candidate McCain is who they support.

re: #91 opnion

Calm down, this is jut a disagreement. A round up would actually work , but would take a long time. Serious sanctions on employers including jail time woud do the trick. They would go home.

No round up needed. Take away the freebies and they would leave on their own.

A legal guest worker program would be great. But only the worker gets the bennies.

re: #58 CactusJack

But, its not lame to compromise your values for votes? McCain just cant win on this issue. The right needs to wake up and stop bashing him over the head about this. we need to do something that is wise. But the right is just not being wise on this issue.

So, only John McCain's values matter? It's lame for McCain to compromise his values for votes, but it's not lame to ask millions of voters to compromise their values?

Maybe it's McCain who should do something wise.

re: #224 Bubbaman

I hear ya. It is a real piss poor election this year. I will vote for McCain but only because I absolutely have to do my part to defeat Obama. However I WILL do my level best to get some hard core conservatives in congress to temper McCain's leftist leanings.

re: #219 Killian Bundy

And it'll take decades to un[expletive deleted] the Supreme Court if Obama gets elected.

/think about that while you're smugly sitting on your high horse watching your taxes skyrocket

I am not "sitting on my high horse" Killian. If the republican party wishes to once again to ignore the people and offer up liberal candidates (that will place liberal judges on the Supreme Court) trying to pass them off as conservatives, then I won't vote for them.

You are asking me and other conservatives to pick the poison the nation has to swallow for the next four years. Will it be the poison called RINO or the poison DEMOCRAT? Either poison is going to harm this nation greatly in my humble opinion. I see no difference between Obama or McCain and will not support either one. They are both bad for our nation, they both will pick liberal justices to the court, and they both will cause great harm. I choose to pick neither poison.

re: #95 Spiny Norman

Not all all. Just make it next to impossible for them to get work. They'll leave on their own.

That's exactly what happened in OK. A new state law passed mandating huge fines for businesses who knowingly employed illegals. The illegal population began to self-deport immediately.

Naturally, the legal challenges by the ACLU have already begun.

re: #208 realwest

And absolutely NOTHING terrifies me more than an Obama presidency. NOTHING. Obama is a true "empty suit"

The only thing scarier than the idea that Obama is an empty suit, is that he ISN'T an empty suit, if you know what I mean. (I.e., if he's a three-piece Brooks Brothers chock full o' crypto-socialism)

re: #232 Random63

You have your convictions and they are valid. But I do ask you to rethink your boycott of the 08 elections. Allowing an idiot who has been in congress since breakfast the ability to run this nation into ruin is simply not an option for me. There are some differences, not many I will give you that, but they are important, such as ANWR and our dependency on foreign oil, not repealling the tax break just to name a couple. Obama doesn't have a clue and won't until MOveon.org raises a cue card in front of him .....Its a crying shame and I know it. But it is not worth the alternative. IMHO

Hey, wasn't trying to stir it - just think that part of any resolution has to be making it easier for a legal immigrant to cross the border to work. As long as he's only undercutting Americans on price and not being paid below the minimum wage, he's not hurting people. Sure, you need to maintain your labour standards. BTW, best way to do that would be to use NAFTA to get Mexico to improve standards their side of the border.

As for learning English - if you're planning on staying, sure. If you're moving across the border for five or ten years to work, and you're going back to Mexico when you're done, then you're just like any other expat; no obligation as long as you don't need it in your job.

Oh, and you do need to amend the constitution on citizenship - anyone born in the USA should not gain citizenship if their parents are in the USA illegally, or on a temporary work visa (ie an expat); if their parents are seeking to be naturalised, then the kids should get citizenship the same day their parents do. You might backdate those cases to birth for the purposes of qualification as natural-born citizenship when standing for the presidency. [Yes, you need to work out the marginal cases like where one parent is a citizen and the other isn't].

Finally, will you please agree some sensible mutual laws with other English-speaking countries. It's insanely difficult to get a visa to work in the USA as a Brit, and the H1B slavery is bonkers (if you're on an H1B visa, and you apply for a Green Card, then you can't change jobs for three to five years until you're awarded the Green Card). It's comparably difficult to work in Britain as an American.

A former colleague of mine was an American with a British girlfriend. They had each worked in the other's country, but after two years they'd expired their visas. Neither of them could get a permanent visa without marrying. They ended up living apart until she got a permanent visa for Canada, and then both set off to live in an entirely new country. I think that's crazy. No way do hordes of Brits steal American jobs or vice versa.

Bash all you want, but this is THE issue that will keep me home in November. I'd hate the see Jimmy Carter reelected in the form of BHO, but it's time the R party heard its membership.

McAmnesty? Hell No!

re: #235 kawfytawk

You have your convictions and they are valid. But I do ask you to rethink your boycott of the 08 elections. Allowing an idiot who has been in congress since breakfast the ability to run this nation into ruin is simply not an option for me. There are some differences, not many I will give you that, but they are important, such as ANWR and our dependency on foreign oil, not repealing the tax break just to name a couple. Obama doesn't have a clue and won't until MOveon.org raises a cue card in front of him .....Its a crying shame and I know it. But it is not worth the alternative. IMHO

Normally I would buy that line of reasoning (and well said and presented Kawfytawk), but I look at what McCain has done with all his years in office and he hasn't accomplished anything more than Obama has. He has shown how much damage he can do to the Republican Party though.

I am not "boycotting" the election in November. I will still go and do my duty and vote, but I will not vote for McCain or Obama. I will vote for conservative candidates that are running for other offices and try to have some hope for our country 4 years from now. But, I reject both presidential candidates and will not "waste" my vote on them. I'm seriously thinking of writing in Ronald Reagan's name. If several thousand voters wrote in his name, it would give the Republicans food for thought, especially if they lose the election.

We will all vote for what we feel is best for the country. I feel that voting for McCain or Obama is NOT best for the country and will not waste my vote on them. You will vote the way you think is best and I respect that. I personally won't vote for inferior candidates that will harm this nation. I just wish some on this site would respect my views.

Some folks here are suffering from Obama Derangement Syndrome and will willingly vote for McCain because of their fear or hatred for Obama without taking thought as to how much damage McCain will do and has done. As long as folks suffer from ODS or DDS (Democrat Derangement Syndrome), the Republican Party will continue to shove inferior candidates down our throats knowing that our hatred/fear of the other side will guarantee the Republican votes. Let's leave the "Derangement Syndromes) to the moonbats and use some common sense to demand quality candidates that reflect the country's conservative values from all political parties.

“But we also must proceed with a temporary worker program that is verifiable and truly temporary.”

The ONLY way a temporary worker plan will be temporary is if the 14th Amendment is re-amended to take away the idiotic court decisions that created the "anchor baby" phenomenon.

Game over without that, we're down the tubes to third world status, but you won't hear a$$holes like McCain or Kennedy saying that. I intend to vote for McCain, but I've already written my congressmen to tell them that in spite of my vote I'll be counting on them to hold the line on immigration.

re: #238 Random63

I will vote for conservative candidates that are running for other offices and try to have some hope for our country 4 years from now.

Good luck with that, it didn't work two years ago and it wont work this year. In four years, the Conservative movement will be all but dead. If the Bonkeys hit 60 seats in the Senate, it's all over with, stick a fork in the Republican party.

/say hello to absolute political irrelevance in your lifetime

re: #238 Random63

You are right on many levels. Although, I have my doubts about the voting conservatives selecting McCain as our "choice". I truly believe he was selected for us...and not by the republican party. So there we have it... what do we do with this sh*t sandwich? (sorry about the visual) It's an awful mess.

I don't have a "hatred" or "derangement" regarding Obama. I just find him to be more of a socialist than a dem., and that doesn't sit well with me.

I do appreciate your point of view.

Seeking to win some points for his initial support for a comprehensive immigration bill, McCain noted that his position “wasn’t very popular ... with some in my party.”

He done thrown us under the freaking bus!

Yeah, that's our Protector of the Constitution, alright... It's Jimmy Carter all the way around, folks. Let it be theirs.

There must be an October Surprise.

Thanks loads to all you imbeciles who couldn't support Giuliani.

Oh well. The die is cast. Barring an October Surprise, we can write off the Republican Party for the foreseeable future. Even if a miracle occurs, McCain will be happy to take a sledge to the party, himself.

You are an idiot Mclame- worry about native Americans getting a job- not foreign illegal invaders- dolt!

re: #245 Salem

Oh well. The die is cast. Barring an October Surprise, we can write off the Republican Party for the foreseeable future. Even if a miracle occurs, McCain will be happy to take a sledge to the party, himself.

/better to at least try and stick your finger in the dike

re: #244 Salem

Thanks loads to all you imbeciles who couldn't support Giuliani.

Or Tom Tancredo or Mitt Romney!

re: #247 Killian Bundy

/better to at least try and stick your finger in the dike

Well, good luck with that, Bundy!

re: #249 Salem

Well, good luck with that, Bundy!

At least I can nullify an Obama freak's vote.

/no way I'm staying home

Stamping out Shamnesty really gave me some hope for the power of the people. It was a proud moment. Oh well. *poof*

re: #250 Killian Bundy

At least I can nullify an Obama freak's vote.

/no way I'm staying home

Fine, I'll vote for McCain. Fat lot of good it will do.

I agree and I will always wonder, who was voting for McCain? How much did voter fraud figure into the primaries? I am very discouraged over our choices for this election and am still in disbelief that McCain pulled it out. I will never believe that it was legitimate. I wasn't happy about George Bush Sr, or Bob Dole, or truthfully even George Bush but the alternative was not tolerable. Now I'm left with a choice on either side that I don't feel is tolerable and every time McCain speaks, he continues to discourage me. Just Lamenting in Tn....I keep thinking thinking something is going to change for the better, but what? re: #159 1 US Sheeple

re: #238 Random63
I feel your pain and also wonder how people can suck it up and pull the lever for a guy who has spit in the eyes of conservatives for years. He is not courting conservatives because he doesn't like them. Well, good luck to him on trying to get elected without them. I have held my nose for too long. McCain is the last straw........

re: #254 reaganrepublican

I feel your pain and also wonder how people can suck it up and pull the lever for a guy who has spit in the eyes of conservatives for years. He is not courting conservatives because he doesn't like them. Well, good luck to him on trying to get elected without them. I have held my nose for too long. McCain is the last straw........

Amen!

My money and my vote are just that, mine to do with as I see fit. It does not belong to the Republican Party or any candidate they try to push onto me. I choose who I vote for. I choose whom to support with my money. Just like shopping in a store, if there isn't anything I like, I just put my money back in my pocket and go back home or to another store.

As for conservatism being dead or dying, the Republicans abandoned conservatism when they decided they liked being in power over honoring their "Contract With America" that they signed back in 1996. Conservatism isn't dead, but it doesn't have a voice right now. Will we be "politically irrelevant" from now on? Maybe, at least for a few years. There are going to be dark times for the next few years. That cannot be avoided now.

For betraying their word, betraying the conservatives that put them there, and betraying the country, the Republican Party deserves to be thrown out. All they have become is whores to their Washington perks, whores to the democrats, and whores to Saudi Arabia.

re: #78 CactusJack

#55 opnion

BS. so, all the illegals that are here, what do we do with them? if you want people rounded up just say it! everyone bitches, but no one offers solutions. good grief.

Jack,

You are so wrong. A number of cities and some states have tried dealing with the illegals by holding the employers, landlords, and others who enable them responsible. The illegals are self-deporting or at least relocating to friendlier places.

McCain is like a one-trick pony, except he also has McCain-Finegold, McCain-Lieberman, ANWAR, and other hair-brained positions in his repertoire.

John McCain reminds me of Bob Dole. He's so in love with his image as a "maverick" that he will not listen to the voters.

re: #255 Random63

Amen!

My money and my vote are just that, mine to do with as I see fit. It does not belong to the Republican Party or any candidate they try to push onto me. I choose who I vote for. I choose whom to support with my money.

I second the Amen! The Republicans (or whoever the primary voters who "selected" John McCain are) have betrayed the conservatives for years. I understand the potential problems with Democrat control of the legislature and the White House, plus the naming of judges to SCOTUS, but what can we do?

re: #257 rustynail

Thank the states who have open primaries where you can declare a party at the poll. Based on what I saw, Romney was the Republican choice. Too bad he dropped out so early.

THe Republicans couldn't chose their own candidate and actually I don't believe the Dems did either. I think more people wanted Hillary than wanted the messiah. So we've got two candidates that were second choices.

What a disaster in November

re: #257 rustynail

Another amen. I'm voting third party.

I am resolute in my wish that McCain selects Mitt Romney as his VP, and shortly thereafter succumbs to his totally natural, genetically programmed, respiratory termination. If it was almost anybody but Obama, I simply wouldn't care.

Well, it seems that he is insisting on losing the election much like Bob Dole.