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150th Anniversary of Theory of Evolution

Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 5:14:45 pm PDT

One hundred fifty years ago today, a paper was read to the Linnaean Society of London, and the scientific theory of evolution was born.

Darwin was still working on his magnum opus when in June 1858 he received a letter from an English naturalist working in Malaysia. Alfred Russel Wallace was young and brash. When he conceived of natural selection, he didn’t plan a 10-volume lifework. He just dashed off a quick paper on the subject and mailed it to the author of The Voyage of the Beagle, asking him to refer it for publication if it seemed good enough.

Darwin was crestfallen. Was he about to lose credit for two decades of work? Wallace had suggested that Darwin forward the paper to Scottish geologist Charles Lyell. Along with English botanist Joseph Hooker, Lyell was one of a small handful of people Darwin had shown early drafts of his own work on natural selection.

Darwin wrote to Lyell and Hooker, and they arranged for a joint paper to be read at the forthcoming meeting of the Linnaean Society of London. (Founded in 1788 and named for Carl Linnaeus, the Swedish scientist who devised the binomial system of taxonomy, it is the world’s oldest active biological society.)

Neither Darwin nor Wallace attended the meeting. Wallace was still in Malaysia. Darwin was at home with his wife mourning the death of their 19-month-old son just three days earlier.

And fundamentalists of one stripe or another have been battling against it ever since. Now they’re at it in New Zealand.

A Christian group promoting intelligent design theory over evolution has sent teaching material to schools that critics say is religious propaganda and sloppy pseudoscience.

The Education Ministry says the unsanctioned material does not breach the Education Act and there are no plans to ban its distribution. But officials stress the theory of evolution underpins the science curriculum and schools have a responsibility to teach theories that are subject to accepted scientific scrutiny.

Focus on the Family has sent The Privileged Planet CD and booklet to 400 high schools, asking that they be made available to science teachers and school libraries.

Waikato University biological sciences senior lecturer Alison Campbell says the material champions creationism - the belief that God created the world as described in the Book of Genesis - claiming the universe is too perfect to have been produced by chance so must be the work of an intelligent designer. It represented a religious viewpoint, she said, not a scientific one, and had no place in science classrooms. “It’s an underhand way of getting creationist material into schools.” ...

Focus on the Family’s executive director Tim Sisarich said the material was intended to expose pupils to an alterative theory of cosmology.

“We’re a Christian organisation so we believe that God made the planet and God made the cosmos ... Science takes a theory and tries to establish it as the truth, and that’s all this is.”

An interesting aspect of the recent resurrection of creationism as “intelligent design” is the collaboration between far-right US Christian groups like the Institute for Creation Research and the Discovery Institute, and the radical Islamic Turkish creationist group led by the notorious Harun Yahya: Evolution Deceit. com - This website is the interactive version of the book ‘Evolution Deceit’ by HARUN YAHYA.

Professor Michael P. Girouard: In his speech, “Is it Possible for Life to Emerge by Coincidences?”, Michael Girouard, a professor of biology at Southern Louisiana University, explained through various examples the complexity of proteins, the basic units of life, and concluded that they could only have come into existence as a result of skilled design.

Dr Edward Boudreaux: In his speech, “The Design in Chemistry”, Edward Boudreaux, a professor of chemistry at the University of New Orleans, noted that some chemical elements must have been deliberately arranged by creation in order for life to exist.

Professor Carl Fliermans: A widely-known scientist in the USA and a microbiology professor at Indiana University conducting a research on “the neutralisation of chemical wastes by bacteria” supported by the US Department of Defence, Carl Fliermans refuted evolutionist claims at the microbiological level.

Professor Edip Keha: A professor of biochemistry, Edip Keha, was the only Turkish speaker of the conference. He presented basic information on the cell and stressed through evidence that the cell could only have come into being as a result of perfect creation.

Professor David Menton: A professor of anatomy at Washington University, David Menton, in a speech that was accompanied by a very interesting computer display, examined the differences between the anatomies of the feathers of birds and the scales of reptiles, thus proving the invalidity of the hypothesis that birds evolved from reptiles.

Professor Duane Gish: Famous evolutionist expert Professor Gish, in his speech entitled “The Origin of Man”, refuted the thesis of man’s evolution from apes.

ICR President Professor John Morris: Professor Morris, the president of the Institute for Creation Research and a famous geologist, gave a speech on the ideological and philosophical commitments lying behind evolution. He further explained that this theory has been turned into a dogma and that its defenders believe in Darwinism with a religious fervour.

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1544 comments

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1 least  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:16:14pm

I do believe this post will garner some comments.

2 the jinxmedic  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:18:24pm

They are not mutually exclusive concepts.

3 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:18:36pm
These conferences were enhanced by a variety of presentations and video projections. The audience included not only Muslims, but also Christians, Jews and people of other faiths.

Politics Evolution makes for strange bedfellows.

4 markx  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:18:39pm

Pass.

5 BlueCanuck  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:19:20pm

Congratulations Charles Darwin for expanding Human thought.

/and on that note I am out of here before the silliness begins.

6 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:20:19pm
An interesting aspect of the recent resurrection of creationism as “intelligent design” is the collaboration between far-right US Christian groups like the Institute for Creation Research and the Discovery Institute, and the radical Islamic Turkish creationist group led by the notorious Harun Yahya


I suspect suspect that's really going piss off some folks. Dramatic exits to begin in 5...4...3...

7 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:20:38pm

re: #4 markx

Fail.

8 itellu3times  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:21:16pm

19th century science, against the timeless power of God!

Next you'll be touting the words of some 18th century rebels, against the educated judgements of twenty-first century judges!

Science and progress, those were ideas that Hitler and Stalin used, we should have nothing to do with them, we're all liberals now!

/does this kool-aid make my tongue turn purple?

9 Maine's Michael  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:21:18pm
10 allan5oh  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:21:28pm

Canada's birthday as well!

141!

11 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:22:15pm

re: #5 BlueCanuck

Congratulations Charles Darwin for expanding Human thought.

/and on that note I am out of here before the silliness begins.

And I'll not be far behind you. I just want to see how long it takes for ... yawwwn ... you know, to get here.

12 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:22:15pm

re: #10 allan5oh

Congratulations.

13 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:22:49pm

re: #10 allan5oh

Canada's birthday as well!

141!

Happy Birthday, Canada!

14 Sizzlack  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:22:50pm

I had no idea Darwin looked so much like Santa

15 LeonidasOfSparta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:22:56pm

and their off with evolutionists leading by a nose or was that a hare? or even a nosehair....

with that sound of the starting gate I am off (or half-off)

16 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:23:07pm

Thank you, Charles, for taking this courageous and principled stand.

I have to decline to participate in tonight's civil war spirited exchange. I am very tired and since I had a heart attack last month I really think a nap would be a good idea.

17 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:23:15pm

Congratulations to DanThePainter for being the first to ding this thread.

18 ornery elephant  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:23:34pm

re: #10 allan5oh

Canada's birthday as well!

141!

Now THAT's A Birthday worth celebrating!

Happy Canada Day to all Canadian Lizards. Thank you for the sacrifice of your young men and women in Afghanistan.

19 Sour Grapes  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:23:35pm

God is very happy with Darwin.

20 DistantThunder  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:23:45pm

It's the S & M thread.

21 spidly  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:24:20pm

oy....

22 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:24:21pm

heeeerrrreeee moby moby moby
SOOOEEEEEE PIG!

23 experiencedtraveller  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:24:24pm

Ninety one years ago today the Battle of the Somme began.

I hope we have politically evolved since 1 July 1917.

24 drmark  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:24:36pm

natural selection and mutation working over millions of years produced you from an amoeba.

25 DeliLama  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:25:18pm

More impressive to me than the theory of evolution was Darwin's amazing observations. The Voyage of the Beagle is an amazing travel adventure story that should be mandatory reading for anyone interested in science. Darwin has been an inspiration to me for years and I've often asked myself "What Would Darwin Do" without intending to be funny.
Voyage of the Beagle

26 akak  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:25:21pm

They are to blame.

27 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:25:25pm

re: #14 Sizzlack

He's a pretty good dancer too

28 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:25:33pm

re: #23 experiencedtraveller

Ninety one years ago today the Battle of the Somme began.

I hope we have politically evolved since 1 July 1917.

A notable date, to be sure!

29 J'accuzzi  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:25:40pm

Those yelling loudest on both sides are trying to ignore their own self doubts and general ignorance.

30 sngnsgt  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:26:12pm

I know a few chickenhawks people who musta' been hatched!

31 experiencedtraveller  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:26:25pm

re: #23 experiencedtraveller

Ninety two years ago today the Battle of the Somme began.

I hope we have politically evolved since 1 July 1917 1916.

32 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:26:30pm
33 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:26:58pm

re: #24 drmark

natural selection and mutation working over millions of years produced you from an amoeba.

Only some of us. Now there are a couple of teenagers in the neighborhood ....

34 SasquatchOnSteroids  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:27:17pm

150 years, WOOT.
A lot has changed since then.

35 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:27:49pm

re: #16 Shiplord Kirel

Rest up.
Get well.
*prayers*

36 Miss Trixie  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:28:09pm

re: #18 ornery elephant

Now THAT's A Birthday worth celebrating!

Happy Canada Day to all Canadian Lizards. Thank you for the sacrifice of your young men and women in Afghanistan.

Thanks, luv *mwah* It was a picture-perfect summer day to celebrate today in Canada'a capital. Outstanding! :D

37 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:28:16pm
38 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:28:34pm

re: #2 the jinxmedic

They are not mutually exclusive concepts.


Right, but when people cling to the Genesis story, all rational discussion is over.
science does not defeat faith, but clinging to preposterous stories does not miove the discussion.

39 DeliLama  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:28:35pm

...that being said (in #25), I also have great sympathy for people who don't want their religious lives disrupted by the fact of evolution (the theory is only the explanation for why it happens). Darwin was a bible quoting Creationist when he stepped aboard the HMS Beagle. What he discovered was painful to him and he knew the destruction it would cause.

It's a shame that Christianity chose to anchor itself partially to something that science would steamroll over mercilessly. It can't be helped.

40 jaynumber13  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:29:52pm

Hey, look...everyone becomes a biologist when the evolution/creationism debate comes 'round the corner.

Since I am not even an amateur scientist, so my opinion means nothing. Neither does anyone's here. Yeah, even Charles'.

These posts are ridiculous.

41 DesertSage  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:30:21pm

I still don't see where the controversy is.

Belief in God does not preclude belief in evolution.
Belief in evolution does not preclude belief in God.

Lao Stinky told me so!

42 drmark  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:30:39pm

It is fact.re: #33 pre-Boomer Marine brat

It is fact.It is fact. Maybe you came from Algae instead?

43 jaynumber13  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:30:45pm

re: #40 jaynumber13

PIMF

44 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:30:55pm

More on The Institute for Creation Research

The ICR was formed by Henry M. Morris in 1972 following an organizational split with the Creation Science Research Center.

Henry Morris

Controversy and criticism

Not cited here is the hoax of the dinosaur with human footprint photograph, which Morris later acknowledged as fraudulent, but pictures of which remain in subsequent printings of his book The Genesis Flood.

45 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:31:26pm

re: #40 jaynumber13

I find them interesting. I've learned a lot on these threads.

46 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:31:34pm

re: #39 DeliLama

It's a shame that Christianity chose to anchor itself partially to something that science would steamroll over mercilessly.

Some parts of Christianity, if you please.

47 GregInSeattle  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:32:54pm

God created the Universe and everything in it. He evidently uses "evolution" to get life where he wants it to go. Most of Genesis is a parable of the human condition, not a scientific text.

48 Miss Trixie  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:33:02pm

*wince*

I can't take these ID debates and how it reduces good folks to nastiness.

I'm outta here.

49 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:33:07pm

re: #42 drmark

What did slugs come from? Those teenagers closely resemble slugs in habits.

50 eon  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:33:13pm
(Professor Morris) further explained that this theory has been turned into a dogma and that its defenders believe in Darwinism with a religious fervor.

Am I allowed to believe in the Second Law of Thermodynamics with a "religious fervor"?

Or am I expected to throw it under the bus the next time somebody claims he's developed an "over-unity" motor?

/Aka a "perpetual motion machine", i.e. one that puts out more energy than it takes in with greater than 100% mechanical efficiency.

ID, Creationism, and Perpetual Motion all have the same thing in common.

None of them can be proven experimentally. And if you cannot prove it by controlled experiment, it is by definition not scientifically valid.

You can call them "philosophies", or "faiths", or whatever you please. But you may not call them "science".

And the fact that radical Islamists agree with the "Creationists" should give everyone pause.

/How do the Creationists feel about Horbiger's "Eternal Ice" theory, I wonder?


cheers

eon

51 Boogberg  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:33:17pm

re: #1 least

I do believe this post will garner some comments.

500 quatloos say no more than 800 :D

52 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:33:32pm

re: #46 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Yes, some parts of Christianity mostly here in America. They have every intention of not only destroying their religion but also our country in the process.

53 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:34:08pm

re: #47 GregInSeattle

God created the Universe and everything in it. He evidently uses "evolution" to get life where he wants it to go. Most of Genesis is a parable of the human condition, not a scientific text.


You are so correct. It is just a story. Faith hinges on deeper things.

54 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:34:29pm

re: #40 jaynumber13

Since I am not even an amateur scientist, so my opinion means nothing. Neither does anyone's here. Yeah, even Charles'.

Nonsense. This is affecting education in America, and now we see YEC working with islamic creationists. This is something that affects us all when the next generation is unable to carry on the fine American standards in science and technology.

55 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:34:36pm

re: #48 Miss Trixie

*wince*

I can't take these ID debates and how it reduces good folks to nastiness.

I'm outta here.

Coward!
*spit*
/sarc
/ (-:

Pardon me while I go into training for the moby-fest ... er ... feast.

56 DesertSage  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:34:41pm

In fact, I've heard that there are lots of preeminent scientists who have very strong beliefs in God.
And yes, that does include their belief that God created the universe.

So I still don't see the controversy.

57 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:35:03pm

re: #45 Killgore Trout

I find them interesting. I've learned a lot on these threads.

I have too, and since science is one of those things I have no head for at all, these threads are incredibly informative.

I don't know the real people behind some of the comments, but damn, some people registered here are really really smart, knowledgeable people, and without this blog and these threads, I may never have had the pleasure of learning as much as I have recently

People who dismiss the opportunity here are, well - maybe not thinking as straight as they could.

58 drmark  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:35:38pm

re: #41 DesertSage

I still don't see where the controversy is.

Belief in God does not preclude belief in evolution.
Belief in evolution does not preclude belief in God.

Lao Stinky told me so!

The controversy is two religions arguing over who is correct. Both sides with historys that ain't pretty. The religion of Darwin, and the religon of creationism.

59 IslandLibertarian  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:35:40pm

All I'm going to say is that judging by the photograph, fashion HAS evolved considerably. As for the "theory", well it remains just that.
I refuse to join the debate.

Power to the Correct People!
(They let others believe what they like.)

60 DeliLama  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:35:44pm

...just one more thing. I see a lot of smug people siding with Darwin, but remember that what Darwin did was discover something completely at odds with common knowledge based on direct observation and the mentoring by almost no one. Very few people are able to venture out from their accepted world and be able to see the clues and be willing to accept what they find, no matter how much it disrupts everything they know. People on both sides of the political spectrum (but mostly liberals) get all huffy when you bring up something that contradicts what they know.

61 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:36:15pm

re: #52 Killgore Trout

Yes, some parts of Christianity mostly here in America. They have every intention of not only destroying their religion but also our country in the process.

Yes. You are right.

Theocracy is theocracy, no matter who's behind it.

62 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:36:23pm

re: #57 reine.de.tout

It's amazing the things you can learn here. You can ask just about anything and someone here will know something about it.

63 drmark  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:36:49pm

re: #49 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Teenagers are suffering from temporary insanity, somewhat due to hormones..

64 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:37:13pm

re: #57 reine.de.tout

I have too, and since science is one of those things I have no head for at all, these threads are incredibly informative.

I don't know the real people behind some of the comments, but damn, some people registered here are really really smart, knowledgeable people, and without this blog and these threads, I may never have had the pleasure of learning as much as I have recently

People who dismiss the opportunity here are, well - maybe not thinking as straight as they could.


LGF is always an education.

65 ornery elephant  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:37:35pm

re: #52 Killgore Trout

Yes, some parts of Christianity mostly here in America. They have every intention of not only destroying their religion but also our country in the process.

before I do the "good grief" and the :eyeroll: , just wanted to make sure I'm reading that right. You're saying that the U.S.A. is in danger from the threat of Christians?

66 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:37:45pm

It's amazing about these seamy sleaze merchants; the more ya dig, tha more dirt ya find, and ya also find that the roots of these ostensibly separate diseased trees are holding hands underground...just like with the Eurofascists, the US neonazis, and the Paulians. I guess turds of a feather bob together.

67 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:37:47pm

re: #56 DesertSage

In fact, I've heard that there are lots of preeminent scientists who have very strong beliefs in God.
And yes, that does include their belief that God created the universe.

So I still don't see the controversy.

The "controversy" is being perpetuated by a lawyer, of all things. And he doesn't care if America keeps it's position in the world of science, medicine and technology so long as he can convince more people to come to Jesus.

68 Charles  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:37:49pm

YouTube finally fixed that 'crossdomain.xml' problem with embedded videos, by the way.

69 BlueCanuck  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:38:04pm

Way off topic here but who cares, you folks will stay on topic all the way to the bitter end. I have noticed, being on of the regular dead threaders, that when an Evolution/ID thread is posted any subsequent threads are slow, lethargic and missing many of the regulars you usually exchange wit. Now most are battling wits and ending up with nothing. I have strong opinions on this topic but I feel that most people would be offended. So I don't share them. Any way see you all on the dead thread, if you can rip yourselves away from this madness.

70 nyc redneck  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:39:12pm

i'm just wondering if this push to bring i.d. into the realm of science as a legitimate alternative to evolution is a new phenomenon?
(i don't remember hearing abt. this much, if at all, until recently.)
if it is just being put forth now, i wonder why. why at this point?
i wonder if it is tied to the spread of islam?

71 jaunte  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:39:25pm

re: #54 Sharmuta

You're right, the deceptive politics behind this issue should be a concern to everyone.

72 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:39:27pm

re: #63 drmark

Teenagers are suffering from temporary insanity, somewhat due to hormones..

It's not just hormones. It's ego, too. Ego and a popular culture which makes heros of the rebels (even the rebels who have no cause.)

73 Maui Girl  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:40:10pm

There is becoming a distinct difference between the theory of evolution, which generally isn't disputed by most Christians and Darwinism. It's the point of "origin" that has Darwinians knickers in a twist. Read Dinesh Souza's book, "What's so great about Christianity?" It's contents will surprise even self-proclaimed atheists. And no, it is not a "religious" book! READ IT.

74 vapig  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:40:29pm

yawn....I guess islam has been defeated and we can now settle down to the mundane.....

/ petulance off

I guess this topic is saved for those of us in the evenings so we see the same thing every night

// petulance really off and I'm outta here too

75 DesertSage  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:40:30pm

re: #58 drmark

The controversy is two religions arguing over who is correct. Both sides with historys that ain't pretty. The religion of Darwin, and the religon of creationism.

I don't see it that way. They are entirely two separate things.

One is a science and one is a belief system. It doesn't make one better then the other, and one doesn't prove the other wrong. There is no dichotomy between believing in God and believing the scientific facts of evolution. One doesn't cancel out the other.

76 drmark  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:40:35pm

re: #72 pre-Boomer Marine brat


Agreed

77 Salem  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:41:03pm

Well, I know some down-dingers who can eat me.

78 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:41:52pm

re: #58 drmark

The controversy is two religions arguing over who is correct. Both sides with historys that ain't pretty. The religion of Darwin, and the religon of creationism.

Evolutionary theory isn't a religion, it's science, and valid science at that (just ask the Catholic church, or about 12,000 US clergy, if you don't believe the scientists themselves).

That's why evolutionary theory belongs in public high school science classes, and the PR-propaganda-renamed creationism hawked by the Disco Institute, intelligent design, does not.

79 wolfie  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:41:56pm

re: #46 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Some parts of Christianity, if you please.

Looking at it from a catholic (all times and places) perspective, it's a very tiny segment of Christianity.

80 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:41:57pm
81 Maui Girl  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:42:16pm

re: #39 DeliLama


Quite frankly, the opposite is happening. Like I said in another post, read Dinesh Souza's book. Enlightening to say the least.

82 PeaceBeUponHim  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:42:20pm

Though I'm an atheist who strongly believes in evolution, Charles you sure seem to be stirring the pot with this stuff lately.

83 czekmark  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:42:51pm

Darwin is g-d! Let's all bow down and kiss his ass feet! Oops can't do that he's dead. Kiss his tombstone?

84 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:43:11pm

re: #70 nyc redneck

i'm just wondering if this push to bring i.d. into the realm of science as a legitimate alternative to evolution is a new phenomenon?

No- it has quite a history. It really picked up steam in the 1950s with Henry Morris's book The Genesis Flood. If you'd like to read more on the history of this battle, I suggest Saving Darwin: How to Be a Christian and Believe in Evolution. He not only covers the history of this controversy, but gives thoughtful arguments both scientifically and theologically to NOT support ID. And- he's a former YEC himself.

85 Charles  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:43:34pm

re: #73 Maui Girl

There is becoming a distinct difference between the theory of evolution, which generally isn't disputed by most Christians and Darwinism. It's the point of "origin" that has Darwinians knickers in a twist. Read Dinesh Souza's book, "What's so great about Christianity?" It's contents will surprise even self-proclaimed atheists. And no, it is not a "religious" book! READ IT.

Victor Davis Hanson has some issues with Dinesh D'Souza:

[Link: article.nationalreview.com...]

86 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:44:00pm

re: #65 ornery elephant

before I do the "good grief" and the :eyeroll: , just wanted to make sure I'm reading that right. You're saying that the U.S.A. is in danger from the threat of Christians?

(Leaping in ahead of Killgore)

I think so -- to the extent that the likes of the Discovery Institute can suceed in creating (no pun intended) a "national religion". That's what the Wedge Document calls for.

To be specific, ornery, it's not a threat "from Christians", but "from certain Christians".

87 Boogberg  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:44:29pm

re: #69 BlueCanuck

I have strong opinions on this topic but I feel that most people would be offended.

So what? Let's hear 'em. :D

88 DesertSage  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:44:33pm

re: #77 Salem

Well, I know some down-dingers who can eat me.

Salem, you've down dinged me dozens of times (and up dinged me once)....and I still like you. Don't take it personally.

89 drmark  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:45:07pm

re: #75 DesertSage

Darwinists claiming things and believing things in spite of the evidence gives fervor to the creationist side.

Claiming "Science" while being most unscientific just doese'nt cut it.

90 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:45:17pm
91 Tigger2005  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:45:23pm

From "The Killer Angels":

Richard "Lo" Armistead: "You may be able to persuade me that you are descended from 'a ape.' You might even be able to convince me that I am descended from 'a ape.' But I challenge you to show me the Southern gentleman who will claim that Robert E. Lee is descended from 'a ape!'"

Gen. Longstreet (sarcastically): "Your logic is unassailable, Lo."

92 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:45:35pm
93 zmdavid  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:46:18pm

re: #86 pre-Boomer Marine brat

To be specific, ornery, it's not a threat "from Christians", but "from certain Christians".


Uncertain Christians are harmless?
/just kidding

94 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:46:48pm

re: #73 Maui Girl

There is becoming a distinct difference between the theory of evolution, which generally isn't disputed by most Christians and Darwinism. It's the point of "origin" that has Darwinians knickers in a twist. Read Dinesh Souza's book, "What's so great about Christianity?" It's contents will surprise even self-proclaimed atheists. And no, it is not a "religious" book! READ IT.

Sal: I guess you didn't see what Charles found out about Ol' Dinesh:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

95 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:46:48pm

re: #79 wolfie

Looking at it from a catholic (all times and places) perspective, it's a very tiny segment of Christianity.

I suspect you're right. At least, I certainly hope so.

96 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:47:03pm

re: #11 pre-Boomer Marine brat

And I'll not be far behind you. I just want to see how long it takes for ... yawwwn ... you know, to get here.

Who?

97 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:47:29pm

re: #65 ornery elephant

You're saying that the U.S.A. is in danger from the threat of Christians?


If they succeed in undermining science education in this country (which I don't hink they will) they are a far greater threat that radical Islam. If they succeed we will be a 3rd world country in a few short generations. It would take radical Islam much longer to destroy us.

98 Ringo the Gringo  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:47:44pm

These threads give me deja vu.

99 experiencedtraveller  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:47:50pm

re: #37 buzzsawmonkey

Mademoiselle from Armentieres...hinky dinky parley voo...

100 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:48:00pm

re: #92 buzzsawmonkey

The will to power knows no religion, though it may use any religion as a vehicle.

Hear Hear

101 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:48:03pm

re: #5 BlueCanuck

Congratulations Charles Darwin for expanding Human thought.

/and on that note I am out of here before the silliness begins.


Bwaarrk, book, book, book book

102 DeliLama  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:48:08pm

Everyone's familiar with the photos of an old Charles Darwin, but few people see the young Charles Darwin.

103 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:48:15pm

Damn, Charles, I was trying to quote you, and you beat me to it by quoting yourself! On the ball you are (he opined in his finest Yodaspeak...;~)

104 Charles  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:48:48pm

We haven't even started to get into Rousas Rushdoony yet.

105 Ringo the Gringo  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:49:21pm

re: #104 Charles

What's Rousas Rushdoony?

106 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:50:06pm

I believe if we dismiss, off hand, that God, as Creator of all things, then we will dismiss as easily the Book of Revelation and the how this earth is wrapped up.

107 experiencedtraveller  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:50:27pm

re: #91 Tigger2005

From "The Killer Angels"

Awesome book. It should be required history reading even if it is a work of fiction.

108 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:50:42pm

re: #73 Maui Girl

D'Souza stinks.

109 DesertSage  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:50:48pm

re: #95 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I suspect you're right. At least, I certainly hope so.

I suspect Wolfie is right also. Of all the Christians I've ever met, and all the people of faith I've ever met, only a very small percentage would fall into the category of ID creationists.
Most of them are very intelligent people and humanitarians. So are scientists and biologists.

110 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:51:10pm

re: #96 A Kiwi Infidel

Who?

Whoever "they" were on the ID thread last night. Some of them were the most utterly conceited asses you can imagine. If one called Amy (something-or-other) shows up, click the name-link through to her blog.

/and delouse when you come back

111 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:51:23pm

re: #89 drmark

Darwinists claiming things and believing things in spite of the evidence gives fervor to the creationist side.

Claiming "Science" while being most unscientific just doese'nt cut it.

Funny; I thought that was what the Disco Institute folks were doing...

112 Tigger2005  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:51:53pm

re: #107 experiencedtraveller

Awesome book. It should be required history reading even if it is a work of fiction.

Joshua Chamberlain became one of my personal heroes after I read the book and saw the film. A great American.

113 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:52:10pm

re: #54 Sharmuta

Nonsense. This is affecting education in America, and now we see YEC working with islamic creationists. This is something that affects us all when the next generation is unable to carry on the fine American standards in science and technology.

Nonsense nonsense. The advancement of the filthy kuffar belief system in your science education has nothing to do with the advancement of the truth of Islam in your education system. Nothing at all.
these are not the droids you are looking for
You should refrain from saying such things if you know what is good for you. You have been down-dinged.

114 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:52:31pm

re: #98 Ringo the Gringo

These threads give me deja vu.

I'd rather have (the incomparable) Dejah Thoris.

115 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:52:52pm

re: #77 Salem

Well, I know some down-dingers who can eat me.

Be careful what you wish for.

116 MandyManners  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:52:59pm

re: #113 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

Nonsense nonsense. The advancement of the filthy kuffar belief system in your science education has nothing to do with the advancement of the truth of Islam in your education system. Nothing at all.
these are not the droids you are looking for
You should refrain from saying such things if you know what is good for you. You have been down-dinged.

What's up, ShortShit?

117 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:53:05pm

re: #104 Charles

I have no idea what that means but I look forward to it.

118 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:53:05pm
ICR President Professor John Morris: Professor Morris, the president of the Institute for Creation Research and a famous geologist, gave a speech on the ideological and philosophical commitments lying behind evolution. He further explained that this theory has been turned into a dogma and that its defenders believe in Darwinism with a religious fervour.

John Morris is the son of the late Henry Morris- whose book The Genesis Flood resorted to lies, misquotes and out and out fraud to promote it's young earth creationism. How nice to see the son of a fraud working with islamic creationists.

119 BlueCanuck  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:53:28pm

re: #87 Boogberg

So what? Let's hear 'em. :D

Couldn't resist replying. ;)

I grew up in a strongly creationist home and church. I also went to school where I learned science and the scientific method. I started to question a lot that I was learning at home and at church. It didn't help that the people in my church were some of the biggest hypocrites going. Needless to say that when I was old enough I stopped going to church. Especially that particular church. That may have influenced my beliefs. I still believe in god, and as I always say from what I have learned in science that god himself is a mathematician. Nuff said. No I am really out of here. BBIAW. Got stuff to do and work to prepare for.

120 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:53:47pm
121 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:53:49pm

re: #110 pre-Boomer Marine brat


Thanks for the warning, their are a few, indeed, who in their percieved self-righteousness, do not make for very good witnesses.

122 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:53:58pm

re: #102 DeliLama

Everyone's familiar with the photos of an old Charles Darwin, but few people see the young Charles Darwin.

I thought that it would be a photo of a monkey. Now that would have been funny!

123 Irish Rose  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:54:07pm

re: #74 vapig

yawn....I guess islam has been defeated and we can now settle down to the mundane.....

/ petulance off

I guess this topic is saved for those of us in the evenings so we see the same thing every night

// petulance really off and I'm outta here too

I see at least three other topics.

And the lounge is open... why suffer alone in silent boredom when you can chat chat chat chittychat chat?

124 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:54:12pm

re: #118 Sharmuta

John Morris is the son of the late Henry Morris- whose book The Genesis Flood resorted to lies, misquotes and out and out fraud to promote it's young earth creationism. How nice to see the son of a fraud working with islamic creationists.


Interesting.

125 Ringo the Gringo  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:54:12pm

re: #117 Killgore Trout

I have no idea what that means but I look forward to it.

That makes two of us.

126 Charles  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:54:16pm

re: #105 Ringo the Gringo

What's Rousas Rushdoony?

The father of Christian Reconstructionism and a long time John Bircher. I believe he died a few years ago.

127 drmark  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:54:24pm

re: #111 Salamantis

They do it too.

128 sinsremoved  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:54:33pm

I have seen the Privelaged Planet CD.

I thought it was pretty good.

What's wrong with showing it to students?

129 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:54:43pm

Did I just put an "i" before an "e" after a "c"?

Back to school....................

130 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:54:44pm

Intelligent Design (ID) is not Islamic Design (ID). It is more like Infidel Design (ID).

131 DesertSage  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:54:47pm

re: #112 Tigger2005

Joshua Chamberlain became one of my personal heroes after I read the book and saw the film. A great American.

Did you read the trilogy, Tigger? All three of those books were awesome.

Killer Tomato (who I haven't seen lately) shares a birthday with Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain. She's a big fan of his too. Next time you see her here you should bring it up.

132 Irish Rose  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:55:06pm

re: #97 Killgore Trout

If they succeed in undermining science education in this country (which I don't hink they will) they are a far greater threat that radical Islam. If they succeed we will be a 3rd world country in a few short generations. It would take radical Islam much longer to destroy us.

Usually I agree with you, but I'm not so sure about this comment. Can you elaborate?

133 loflyer  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:55:24pm

re: #69 BlueCanuck

Way off topic here but who cares, you folks will stay on topic all the way to the bitter end. I have noticed, being on of the regular dead threaders, that when an Evolution/ID thread is posted any subsequent threads are slow, lethargic and missing many of the regulars you usually exchange wit. Now most are battling wits and ending up with nothing. I have strong opinions on this topic but I feel that most people would be offended. So I don't share them. Any way see you all on the dead thread, if you can rip yourselves away from this madness.

BC, I agree, I thoroughly dislike the evolution topics, 99 percent have made up their minds on the subject and will not be swayed by debate or logic.
OT, looks like we have a second amendment related battle at Atlanta's airport, busiest in the world. The Georgia legislature has passed a bill allowing carrying concealed weapons (With a concealed permit) into public transportation, restaurants, and other places where weapons had previously been banned. The director of Atlanta's Hartsfield/Jackson international airport released a ridiculous statement interpreting the law to exclude airports and threatening to arrest any carrying weapons into the airport. Federal law states that weapons are not allowed in the secure areas (sensible) but excludes the rest of the facilities.
Liberals, wasting taxpayers money defending the indefensible....

134 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:55:27pm

re: #124 Killgore Trout

They really do all run in the same circles- like that other group we've discussed since last fall.

135 jcbunga  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:55:30pm

...if Marilyn Monroe was distended descended from the apes, those were some freakin' smokin' hot apes.

136 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:55:31pm

re: #93 zmdavid

Uncertain Christians are harmless?
/just kidding

Well ... gratefully ... I'm uncertain about what you mean.
(You can breathe easy now.)
*grin*

137 Charles  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:55:52pm
138 nyc redneck  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:55:54pm

re: #84 Sharmuta

i had no idea.
thanks for the info.

139 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:55:55pm

re: #120 buzzsawmonkey


After "Inky dinky parlez vous" you're supposed sing "have a banana"

140 stuiec  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:55:59pm

Darwin didn't come up with the theory of evolution, he came up with the theory that evolution occurs by natural selection. He also had the insight that natural selection doesn't necessarily mean survival of the fittest, only the survival of the likeliest to sire (or bear) the next generation.

At present, the process of "natural" selection in humans is skewed in a multitude of ways, from the low birthrate in developed nations to sex-selection abortions and female infanticide in China and India. The individuals likeliest to pass their genes to the next generation are not necessarily the ones society would deem its best and brightest. It seems that human evolution may be headed in a maladaptive direction.

141 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:56:09pm

re: #104 Charles

We haven't even started to get into Rousas Rushdoony yet.

But let's! Talk about some gamy Idiotarian buttocks; they don't get much gamier than people who wanna trade in the US Constitution for the Bible - the Christian Dominionists and Reconstructionists, our very own AmeriChristian Taliban!

142 ornery elephant  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:56:14pm

re: #97 Killgore Trout

If they succeed in undermining science education in this country (which I don't hink they will) they are a far greater threat that radical Islam. If they succeed we will be a 3rd world country in a few short generations. It would take radical Islam much longer to destroy us.

Now that, I was not expecting.

Catch you all later.

143 zmdavid  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:56:31pm

There's a group of Christians that believe this stuff (creationism) and there's a group that hasn't bothered thinking about it, but sees various opponents from other battles like the ACLU, and evangelical atheists like Dawkins lining up to battle Creationists and reflexively sides with them. That's why political and legal arguments are unconvincing. One must get people looking at the science unemotionally.

Denying reality is a bad place to be.

A bad argument is worse than no argument at all.

144 ggt  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:56:36pm

re: #112 Tigger2005

put that one in the Book Link for future reference!

145 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:57:15pm
146 experiencedtraveller  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:57:50pm

re: #112 Tigger2005

Joshua Chamberlain became one of my personal heroes after I read the book and saw the film. A great American.

Completely agree. I believe Joshua Chamberlain saved American democracy. The defense of Little Round Top and his singular courage turned the tide in the decisive Battle of Gettysburg.

147 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:57:58pm

re: #99 experiencedtraveller

Mademoiselle from Armentieres...hinky dinky parley voo...

Marlene Dietrich -- Lili Marlene

148 DeliLama  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:58:09pm

re: #97 Killgore Trout

[Many, but not all] Christians everywhere have fought Darwin's writings since day one. Today is no different. The world will go on just fine regardless of people's views on evolution.

The views of people overall have become less superstitious and more reasoned over time, and that's a good thing. But don't expect miracles from the general population.

Science has always been pushed forward by a very small number of people sitting amongst the ignorance, indifference, and hostility of people who will eventually welcome the benefits of what those pioneers do: Darwin, the Wright Brothers, the scientists, the industrialists, etc. etc. all the while badmouthing them, their methods, and their findings.

149 jcm  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:58:21pm

The lack of the mention of globular clusters in the paper proves it is a fake!

150 eon  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:58:36pm

re: #70 nyc redneck

i'm just wondering if this push to bring i.d. into the realm of science as a legitimate alternative to evolution is a new phenomenon?
(i don't remember hearing abt. this much, if at all, until recently.)
if it is just being put forth now, i wonder why. why at this point?
i wonder if it is tied to the spread of islam?

Actually, the battle against natural selection began almost as soon as Darwin and Wallace's joint paper was read.

Google search for;

Thomas Henry Huxley
William Jennings Bryan (cross-reference; John Scopes)
Nonconformism

Interestingly enough, mainstream Christianity took Darwinism in its stride at the time, and later. As James Burke relates in Chapter 8 of his book The Day The Universe Changed, by 1884 Frederick Temple, a leading Anglican theologian and later Archbishop of Canterbury, stated that nothing in Darwin contradicted the principle of God's Creation. (His argument being, "How God went about creating the world is entirely his own affair", basically.)

The Catholic Church officially accepted evolution as "Part of God's plan" in Pope Pius XII's encyclical, Humani Generis, in 1951. And all it really did was enshrine in official Church doctrine what had been taught in Catholic schools (including those in the U.S.) for three generations by that time.

The present fixation on refutation of Darwin and Wallace's work by some extremists in religious circles flies in the face of a century and a half of mainstream religious doctrines. And saying that they are "defending traditional Christian beliefs" does not make it so.

As a Methodist, I was always taught that God expected us to use our brains, and reason objectively. As my sainted mother used to say, "The Good Lord gave you a head on your shoulders to use. Thinking is not a sin. Not thinking is something else entirely."

Of course, she also believed that the term "blind faith" was an oxymoron. After all, it was never demanded of anyone in the Old Testament by Himself.

cheers

eon

151 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:59:01pm

re: #105 Ringo the Gringo

What's Rousas Rushdoony?

I think he was a Scot. But that would make a FINE name in Iran And he supported death for apostasy. So he has that going for him.

152 drmark  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:59:24pm

re: #137 Charles

I appreciate you calling BS on ID and DI Charles.

153 Irish Rose  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:59:32pm

re: #120 buzzsawmonkey

Nice. Doesn't have the riper lyrics, though:

A German officer crossed the Rhine
Parley-voo
A German officer crossed the Rhine
Parley-voo
A German officer crossed the Rhine
He liked the women and loved the wine
Hinky-dinky (also, "hanky-panky") parley voo

O mademoiselle from Armentieres
Parley-voo
O mademoiselle from Armentieres
Parley-voo
O mademoiselle from Armentieres
Hasn't been f*cked in 40 years
Hinky-dinky parley voo

He took her upstairs and into bed
Parley-voo
He took her upstairs and into bed
Parley-voo
He took her upstairs and into bed
And there he cracked her maidenhead
Hinky-dinky parley voo

OK you, quit going off topic ;).

/is it getting warm in here, or is it just me?

154 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:59:51pm

Henry Morris:

Morris theorized in his book The Remarkable Birth of Planet Earth (1972) that the craters of the moon were caused by a cosmic battle between the forces of Satan and the armies of the archangel Michael.

Ohkaaay.

155 blue_like_jazz  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:00:39pm
156 grumpy old codger  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:00:42pm

I've no doubt that evolution continues even as we speak. I believe, however, that the "traditional" account of creation is just God's way of telling us, that, as human beings, we cannot comprehend what the big plan is. It is a "story" to reveal to us what He means, despite our inability to grasp the facts.
Darwin recognized the means, not the cause.

157 LeonidasOfSparta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:00:43pm
158 ggt  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:00:59pm

re: #97 Killgore Trout

We are in danger from Fundamentalists, both Christian and Islamic. They reject Classical Liberalism and ignore the core values on which this nation was founded. I find them no different than the Neo-Nazi's or Communists.

Ultimately, they want power. Not salvation.

159 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:01:13pm

re: #149 jcm

The lack of the mention of globular clusters in the paper proves it is a fake!

Globular clusters!
AH!
The grapes of wrath!

160 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:01:34pm

re: #70 nyc redneck

i'm just wondering if this push to bring i.d. into the realm of science as a legitimate alternative to evolution is a new phenomenon?
(i don't remember hearing abt. this much, if at all, until recently.)
if it is just being put forth now, i wonder why. why at this point?
i wonder if it is tied to the spread of islam?

No. Shhhhh!

161 jcm  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:01:47pm

re: #112 Tigger2005

Joshua Chamberlain became one of my personal heroes after I read the book and saw the film. A great American.

I read a account of Gettysburg in 5th grade. I was into history even then and would sneak into the high school library to find books. Chamberlain was a hero then. What do you do when you're out of ammo and the entire Union line hangs on your position? CHARGE!

162 Boogberg  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:01:55pm

re: #119 BlueCanuck

I'm sure a lot of people share your experience, BlueCanuck (myself included). I see nothing offensive about it.

163 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:02:57pm

re: #150 eon
Well said.

164 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:03:10pm

re: #132 Irish Rose

Biotech in the next few decades is going to become increasingly important. I'd guess it's probably going to be the single most important element that is going to shape our lives but especially the lives of our children and grand children. How is a scientifically illiterate culture going to make wise choices regarding very complex issues of biological science? If we as a culture don't have even a basic understanding of the science involved we are not going to make wise choices. Europe, India and Israel will be leading the world in curing diseases, medicine and technology. We will quickly join the Islamic world in benefiting from these advances with no understanding of how they were accomplished or how to accomplish them ourselves. We will become consumers of these advances and eventually become welfare beneficiaries when we can no longer afford to pay for them.

165 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:03:23pm

re: #141 Salamantis

But let's! Talk about some gamy Idiotarian buttocks; they don't get much gamier than people who wanna trade in the US Constitution for the Bible - the Christian Dominionists and Reconstructionists, our very own AmeriChristian Taliban!

Given that from 1776, the Bible formed the foudation of your great country, I would say that Christian fundamentalists are the very least of your problem. You should be more concerned that freedom of speech is being undermined, (it might start with shutting up the freedom of Christians to preach their "hate speech" but it will arrive on your doorstep soon enough), the removal of your right to bear arms for the protection of your families freedom (you may have that right now, but if part one comes true, gun owners will soon become criminals). And then, when your rights have been removed under the pretext of protecting you from fundamentalists, its all over Red Rover.

166 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:03:46pm

re: #161 jcm

What do you do when you're out of ammo and the entire Union line hangs on your position?

Send the children across!

167 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:03:53pm

re: #148 DeliLama

[Many, but not all] Christians everywhere have fought Darwin's writings since day one.

Actually- there was no one fighting to stop On the Origins of Species from landing in America. There was, however, massive demonstrations to stop The Life of Jesus Critically Examined. It was this book, and not Darwin that drove the evangelical community to write The Fundamentals- evolution is scarcely mentioned as an issue.

168 Ringo the Gringo  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:04:17pm

Rousas Rushdoony, that's one hell of a name.

I just did a quick wiki-read-up on him, sounds like he wanted to turn the US into a Christian version of Saudi Arabia.

A complete nutter.

169 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:04:20pm

re: #154 Sharmuta

Heh.

170 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:04:30pm

When does desert get here?
I've finished supper.
Where are they?

171 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:04:32pm
172 jcbunga  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:05:08pm

re: #161 jcm

I read a account of Gettysburg in 5th grade. I was into history even then and would sneak into the high school library to find books. Chamberlain was a hero then. What do you do when you're out of ammo and the entire Union line hangs on your position? CHARGE!

I've been to Little Round Top many times...it's less than an hour drive. Very touching to see people leaving pennies (Lincoln) atop the 20th Maine monument, which is situated approximately where Chamberlain extended his line and turned it back at the colors.

No Code Pinko's there, either. Just patriots and pennies :)

173 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:05:08pm

re: #158 ggt

We are in danger from Fundamentalists, both Christian and Islamic. They reject Classical Liberalism and ignore the core values on which this nation was founded. I find them no different than the Neo-Nazi's or Communists.

Ultimately, they want power. Not salvation.


Your nation was founded on the values and morals contained in the Bible, not liberalism.

174 Irish Rose  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:05:17pm

re: #164 Killgore Trout


I'm not sure that I agree with you, but you do make a very interesting point. I'll ponder it for a while.

175 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:05:18pm

re: #137 Charles

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

See also:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

176 loflyer  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:05:22pm

re: #154 Sharmuta

Henry Morris:


Ohkaaay.

I also remember that some early science fiction writers theorized the craters were caused by a nuclear war that blew away the moons atmosphere. Heinlein's "Rocket ship Galileo" was my personal fav as a child. Modern science interprets the craters as caused by meteors and the nuclear war theory went no-where....Reminds me of "global warming"

177 Boogberg  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:05:31pm

re: #126 Charles

The father of Christian Reconstructionism and a long time John Bircher. I believe he died a few years ago.

Ah yes. The "John Birch Society". What the hell's up with those weirdos?

178 theparson  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:05:41pm

I haven't had much to say on this but I have read most of the posts and feel like weighing in.
First to my Christian brethren. It saddens me to read the angry, spiteful words that come from so many who profess to be Christians. I don't understand why some of you insist on throwing pejoratives at Charles for posting on his own blog things of interest to him. It isn't as though he has invaded your territory or as though you have stumbled upon this blog. You made the choice to log on to and participate in this blog knowing full well it belongs to him.
You feel as though your faith is challenged. So what! That is part of the deal. If you see yourself as a martyr why not act like one. Why not suffer in silence and faithful dignity. Where do we find in the Bible that martyr's fight back? Doesn't the Word tell us that "a soft word turns away wrath"? Doesn't that same word tell us to "Count it all joy..."? How many of your have actually prayed for those who "spitefully use you"? Do you pray that God will give you wisdom and understanding with divinely inspired words to express, in a loving meaningful way, your faith?
You reject this admonition? You feel you have the right, no... duty to correct those who believe differently or challenge your beliefs? Are you indignant at their audacious insistence to defy your faith!? If so, I do not question your Christianity but I do question your Christian maturity.

And to my friends on the other side. I admit an ignorance concerning this subject. I am not a scientist. I confess to a belief in the Biblical account of creation. I also admit that, though I believe God created all things, I truly don't know how He accomplished that. While it saddens me that many scientists confess a disbelief in God, I am glad that scientists are exploring different ideas and using their (God given) knowledge to make life better in so many ways. I would like to offer my apologies to you on behalf of my Christian brethren for angry and hateful words. It is true that I sometimes read words that are hurtful but, I made the choice to believe the way I do.
I doubt more than 5 people will read this but regardless of that, I feel better!
theparson

179 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:05:48pm

re: #166 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

Send the children across!


What the heck are you doing here, have you got a bag lady to entertain?

180 loflyer  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:07:36pm

re: #176 loflyer

Ignore my previous post Sharmuta, I fat-fingered the quote button....

181 Charles  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:07:46pm

re: #168 Ringo the Gringo

Rousas Rushdoony, that's one hell of a name.

I just did a quick wiki-read-up on him, sounds like he wanted to turn the US into a Christian version of Saudi Arabia.

A complete nutter.

That's exactly what he wanted, and what his various fellow travelers continue to work for. And that's one reason this topic is worth digging into.

182 LeePro  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:08:10pm

re: #165 A Kiwi Infidel

Given that from 1776, the Bible formed the foudation of your great country, I would say that Christian fundamentalists are the very least of your problem. You should be more concerned that freedom of speech is being undermined, (it might start with shutting up the freedom of Christians to preach their "hate speech" but it will arrive on your doorstep soon enough), the removal of your right to bear arms for the protection of your families freedom (you may have that right now, but if part one comes true, gun owners will soon become criminals). And then, when your rights have been removed under the pretext of protecting you from fundamentalists, its all over Red Rover.

Excellent observations "from afar," Kiwi! ! !
My sentiments exactly!

183 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:08:26pm

re: #138 nyc redneck

My pleasure.

184 nyc redneck  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:08:27pm

re: #160 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

No. Shhhhh!

how tall are you? 5'0' even or 5'1'?
and are you a 34 extra short or a 36 extra short in those poly suits you wear?
you need a new tailor. try a 60's style suit. the tapered trousers will give you some height.
also take your wife (wives) out from under the sack. you bad man, you.

185 Ringo the Gringo  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:08:34pm

“Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s”

Sound's like Rushdoony must have missed this passage.

186 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:08:49pm

re: #177 Boogberg

Ah yes. The "John Birch Society". What the hell's up with those weirdos?


Weirdos! Weirdos! How dare you. I will have you know that they are freaking nuts!

187 jcm  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:09:03pm

re: #166 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

Send the children across!

No need we deliver!

188 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:09:11pm

re: #178 theparson

Well put, Parson.

189 MandyManners  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:09:27pm

In the Institutes, Rushdoony supported the reinstatement of the Mosaic law's penal sanctions. Under such a system, the list of civil crimes which carried a death sentence would include homosexuality, adultery, incest, lying about one's virginity, bestiality, witchcraft, idolatry or apostasy, public blasphemy, false prophesying, kidnapping, rape, and bearing false witness in a capital case.

SNIP
Lovely.

190 Cognito  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:09:29pm

re: #181 Charles

That's exactly what he wanted, and what his various fellow travelers continue to work for. And that's one reason this topic is worth digging into.

Heck yes. Those Christians are practically polishing their scimitars these days.

191 wolfie  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:09:36pm

re: #158 ggt

We are in danger from Fundamentalists, both Christian and Islamic. They reject Classical Liberalism and ignore the core values on which this nation was founded. I find them no different than the Neo-Nazi's or Communists.

Ultimately, they want power. Not salvation.


So. Christians who believe in a literal, 6-day creation story are no different from Nazis?
Thank you for clarifying that.

By the way, have you ever met one?

192 Irish Rose  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:09:42pm

re: #178 theparson

Great post!

193 ASU86PE  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:10:13pm

re: #34 SasquatchOnSteroids

1. Dude, I like the throwback link to Blue Oyster Cult in your avatar name.

2. Yes, a lot has changed as shown in the video.

Yet, I'm still not convinced we are better than our ancestors; we're just wrapped in the trappings they left behind.

194 zmdavid  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:10:16pm

The ability to join fringe groups and hold odd views is a cherished right here in the U.S. As long as people stick to regular legal American institutions to push their cause they deserve at least some respect, at least in my opinion. That is why I am not worried as much about Christian Creationists as Islamic radicals or socialists.

195 drmark  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:10:20pm

re: #181 Charles

IMHO there are much bigger threats than this school issue....

196 experiencedtraveller  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:10:34pm

re: #171 buzzsawmonkey and re: #147 pre-Boomer Marine brat:

And we won't come back
till its over.
Over there.

/Which kind of makes it a fitting song for 2008 eh?

197 least  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:10:37pm

re: #38 opnion

Right, but when people cling to the Genesis story, all rational discussion is over.
science does not defeat faith, but clinging to preposterous stories does not miove the discussion.


'Scuze me . . .
1) By calling The Genesis accounts "preposterous stories" you move the discussion where?
2) And you know it's preposterous because you were there?

198 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:10:51pm

She will wake soon (I can hear her snores and belches becoming irregular even from here in the tower where I write), and I must therefore sign off before too long. It is always good to "check up on the ol' infidels", to make sure that you are not paying too much attention to science education, and that above all, you must be VERY concerned about global worming. That stuff is serious business, oh yessss.

Oh! Palantir coming online. Gotta go.

199 tokyobk  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:11:14pm

re: #158 ggt

We are in danger from Fundamentalists, both Christian and Islamic. They reject Classical Liberalism and ignore the core values on which this nation was founded. I find them no different than the Neo-Nazi's or Communists.

Ultimately, they want power. Not salvation.

Though America was founded by a Classical Liberalsim shaped by Christian and Humanistic values, and actual Christians. America cannot and should not be separated from this legacy.

That said, the founders had to separate themselves from the literalism which all religions seem to demand. Deism worked in this way.

And that is what bothers me in this argument. What some religious people want to do is conform science and discovery to stories written down by people with minuscule knowledge of the world around them, and second hand reporting about the events they describe, with of course political interests in recording things as they did. The Torah, New Testament and the Koran are all a hodgepodge of mistranslations, repeated and reshaped myths, terrible geography and worse science.

It is religion that gives way as it must to measurable and reportable discoveries. Trying to fit discoverable and measurable reality into the dogmas of any of man's religions is both impossible and unprofitable.

Not that there is not a god.

200 jcm  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:11:19pm

re: #178 theparson

I haven't had much to say on this but I have read most of the posts and feel like weighing in.
First to my Christian brethren. It saddens me to read the angry, spiteful words that come from so many who profess to be Christians. I don't understand why some of you insist on throwing pejoratives at Charles for posting on his own blog things of interest to him. It isn't as though he has invaded your territory or as though you have stumbled upon this blog. You made the choice to log on to and participate in this blog knowing full well it belongs to him.
You feel as though your faith is challenged. So what! That is part of the deal. If you see yourself as a martyr why not act like one. Why not suffer in silence and faithful dignity. Where do we find in the Bible that martyr's fight back? Doesn't the Word tell us that "a soft word turns away wrath"? Doesn't that same word tell us to "Count it all joy..."? How many of your have actually prayed for those who "spitefully use you"? Do you pray that God will give you wisdom and understanding with divinely inspired words to express, in a loving meaningful way, your faith?
You reject this admonition? You feel you have the right, no... duty to correct those who believe differently or challenge your beliefs? Are you indignant at their audacious insistence to defy your faith!? If so, I do not question your Christianity but I do question your Christian maturity.

And to my friends on the other side. I admit an ignorance concerning this subject. I am not a scientist. I confess to a belief in the Biblical account of creation. I also admit that, though I believe God created all things, I truly don't know how He accomplished that. While it saddens me that many scientists confess a disbelief in God, I am glad that scientists are exploring different ideas and using their (God given) knowledge to make life better in so many ways. I would like to offer my apologies to you on behalf of my Christian brethren for angry and hateful words. It is true that I sometimes read words that are hurtful but, I made the choice to believe the way I do.
I doubt more than 5 people will read this but regardless of that, I feel better!
theparson

Hear! Hear!

201 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:11:41pm

re: #97 Killgore Trout

If they succeed in undermining science education in this country (which I don't hink they will) they are a far greater threat that radical Islam. If they succeed we will be a 3rd world country in a few short generations. It would take radical Islam much longer to destroy us.

Yeah, kinda like the horde of secularist science teachers who have already infiltrated the classroom and undermined science and are pushing their brand of Marxism/Christian persecution. Science teachers should check their belief in God, or lack thereof at the door and teach the facts - of which evolution is one. Being a believer in God and a Christian does not disqualify or preclude one from teaching science, or make him any less a teacher. You really should explore Christ before you go lumping us all into the same category. You come off sounding like a leftist.

202 FrogMarch  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:11:56pm
203 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:12:01pm

re: #178 theparson

I read it, and you're right. However, as a longtime poster, here, I have tried reason, as iron sharpens iron, and in the end you tend to give up, after all, we are not cast pearls before swine.

I agree with you. The issue of how it all came about is a clever diversion manufactured by the enemy to draw us away from the real issue, our sin our fallen-ness from the Glory of God, and our need to be put right, our need for a Saviour, and Praise the Lord Jesus Christ died for all men.

I just believe in the creation, In Faith, and I move on.

Thanks Parson, for chiming in. Hang around, sometimes there is a soul that asks a question with a heart to know.

204 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:12:29pm

re: #194 zmdavid

The ability to join fringe groups and hold odd views is a cherished right here in the U.S. As long as people stick to regular legal American institutions to push their cause they deserve at least some respect, at least in my opinion. That is why I am not worried as much about Christian Creationists as Islamic radicals or socialists.


I think we have a winner!

205 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:12:40pm

re: #182 LeePro


Dont worry, its coming here, soon enough.

206 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:12:51pm

re: #190 Cognito

Heck yes. Those Christians are practically polishing their scimitars these days.

Jeez, they let anybody in here.

207 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:13:02pm

re: #178 theparson

Bravo!

208 ggt  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:13:09pm

re: #164 Killgore Trout


I heard a report on drive-time radio this morning that a little girl was born in England recently who is free of the hereditary breast cancer gene that has plagued every generation of females in her father's line. Beginning with her, subsequent generations will also be free of it.

This was accomplished thru science. Fertalized eggs were taken by the mother and evaluated. Those free of the gene were implanted.

Amazing!

209 drmark  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:13:09pm

Our duly elected representatives are the ones screwing us....
not IDer's

210 quickjustice  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:13:29pm

Treating science as religion (as does Dawkins) and religion as science (as do the creationists) takes us backwards, not forwards. Darwin's wife, whom he dearly loved, was a devout Christian who was greatly distressed by her husband's theory. She also believed that the earth was only a few thousand years old, as calculated from the Bible.

Darwin suffered for his theory. He stuck to it nonetheless.

Good science and good technology are necessary to improve our material lives. Good religion is necessary for spiritual introspection. Conflating the two leads to both bad science and bad religion.

211 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:13:40pm

re: #165 A Kiwi Infidel

Given that from 1776, the Bible formed the foudation of your great country, I would say that Christian fundamentalists are the very least of your problem.

I think a lack of civics and history education is our problem.

This country was founded by the religiously persecuted fleeing Christian theocracies in europe. This country, from 1776 forward, was founded on the theories of democracy pondered by the greeks to the Enlightenment. Did Judeo-Christian values play a role? Certainly, but there were other influences, and there's no denying that.

212 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:13:56pm

re: #201 Kreuzueber Halbmond

You really should explore Christ before you go lumping us all into the same category.


Thanks, I'll do that.

213 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:14:01pm

re: #178 theparson

I doubt more than 5 people will read this

12 up-dings and climbing, Parson -- oh you of little faith!
*grin*
*tease*

214 jcm  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:14:08pm

re: #202 FrogMarch

Obama is going to de-fund NASA to pay for universal daycare.

great.

Commie indoctrination for 3 year olds, what's he going to call his program?
Young Pioneers?

215 FrogMarch  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:14:15pm

I had a wonderful geology teacher in College (CSU, Fort Collins, CO) who openly admitted he believed in God, and said that science only reinforced his belief. That was the end of it. After that, we all were taught geology.
Cool dude.

216 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:14:36pm

re: #202 FrogMarch

Obama is going to de-fund NASA to pay for universal daycare.

great.

If it is truly Universal, won't they need NASA to run the school bus?

217 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:14:54pm

re: #208 ggt

Yes, I read the same thing. It's amazing what humans will accomplish in the next few generations.

218 Killian Bundy  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:15:23pm

Frankly, those who believe that the United States is in any danger of becoming a Christian theocracy are just as nuts as those who believe the Earth is 6000 years old.

/IMHO

219 ggt  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:15:47pm

re: #173 A Kiwi Infidel

I'm not touching that one. You believe what you want.

220 Boogberg  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:15:55pm

re: #178 theparson

I liked your post too, theparson. See? that's already more than five people who've read your comment. :D

221 anduril3019  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:16:06pm
Waikato University biological sciences senior lecturer Alison Campbell says the material champions creationism... “It’s an underhand way of getting creationist material into schools.” ...

If an openly Christian organization gives out materials that promote a creationist world view, how is this underhanded?

222 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:16:20pm

re: #214 jcm

Commie indoctrination for 3 year olds, what's he going to call his program?
Young Pioneers?


Obama is one dangerous son of a bitch!

223 FrogMarch  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:16:45pm

re: #214 jcm

Commie indoctrination for 3 year olds, what's he going to call his program?
Young Pioneers?

Well you know since the moon landing was faked (REM says so!) and Hubble was a bust - who needs space exploration? We must take care of the poor. Just like Obama did w/ his Chicago housing project.

224 jcm  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:16:46pm

re: #220 Boogberg

I liked your post too, theparson. See? that's already more than five people who've read your comment. :D

Read? I was just dinging to be with the in crowd! / ;-P

Great post Parson!

225 theparson  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:17:11pm

re: #213 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Thanks, Boomer, et al. I'm humbled by the kind words.

226 Dekar  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:18:27pm

re: #166 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

Send the children across!

SHET! I totally meant to + you

227 Zach_the_Lizard  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:19:08pm

I, as a Christian and believer in evolution, look with confusion and disappointment at my fellow Christians who reject evolution. As far as I am concerned, the debate over whether evolution happens or not is over. All one has to do to prove evolution is simply look at the fossil record to see the transformation of species over time (though there are gaps) and then glance on over at the rapid mutation of diseases. The fossils simply prove we weren't around since the beginning, and the rapid mutation proves the mechanism of natural selection does, indeed, work as expected.

I look on those who would deny access to science because it doesn't mesh with their religious beliefs just as I would look upon the Islamists who wish to turn the world into a theocracy. If you wish to not believe in evolution, that which is before your very eyes, then feel free to wallow in your own, self contained, ignorance. However, do not spread your ignorance by shoving it down the throats of others.

Also, for certain very extremist versions of Christianity (and other religions), do not confuse morality with legality. Though we may believe that something is sinful, man has been granted free will. So long as something harms no one but those that partake in that action, it should be legal. Don't agree with homosexuality? Fine. I don't. However, don't ban it. I don't agree with gay marriage, however, I would be in favor of legalizing it.

Please guys, just give up on creationism already. You make us conservatives look like backasswards hillbillies by clinging to it. Let it go.

228 FrogMarch  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:19:11pm

re: #218 Killian Bundy

Frankly, those who believe that the United States is in any danger of becoming a Christian theocracy are just as nuts as those who believe the Earth is 6000 years old.

/IMHO

I would agree.

229 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:19:15pm

Hey, I'm going out for silders. Anybody want anything?

230 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:19:38pm

re: #208 ggt

I heard a report on drive-time radio this morning that a little girl was born in England recently who is free of the hereditary breast cancer gene that has plagued every generation of females in her father's line. Beginning with her, subsequent generations will also be free of it.

This was accomplished thru science. Fertalized eggs were taken by the mother and evaluated. Those free of the gene were implanted.

Amazing!

In my country we are beyond this, and will soon have produced women with no breasts. While the research and measurements are time-consuming, difficult labor, the payoff will be that my scientists will no longer be distracted by anything, enabling them to pursue more important science projects in a world free from carnal desires. And you know what my favorite science project is.

231 Zach_the_Lizard  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:19:44pm

re: #218 Killian Bundy

Frankly, those who believe that the United States is in any danger of becoming a Christian theocracy are just as nuts as those who believe the Earth is 6000 years old.

/IMHO

Very well said.

232 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:20:16pm

re: #178 theparson

*grin*
17 and still going, Parson!
Keep contributing!

233 ASU86PE  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:20:21pm

re: #25 DeliLama

Science has nothing to do with your disbelief in Christianity.

234 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:20:47pm

Rousas Rushdoony and his connections

Rousas Rushdoony has been highly influential in the American fundamentalist movement. The article also shows the connections between Rushdoony’s friend Howard Ahmanson, the Discovery Institute and Intelligent Design.

It appears that one of the major objections to the report is that it associates believers in young earth creationism, and Intelligent Design with extreme fundamentalism.


I get it now.

235 jcm  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:20:55pm

re: #223 FrogMarch

Well you know since the moon landing was faked (REM says so!) and Hubble was a bust - who needs space exploration? We must take care of the poor. Just like Obama did w/ his Chicago housing project.

I gave a camera a roll of film to a moon landing moonbat, simple assignment. Take a picture at night, in the foreground fully illuminated subject, in the background stars.

He I never saw his pictures, he never mentioned it again.

About 99 of the units are vacant, many rendered uninhabitable by unfixed problems, such as collapsed roofs and fire damage. Mice scamper through the halls. Battered mailboxes hang open. Sewage backs up into kitchen sinks. In 2006, federal inspectors graded the condition of the complex an 11 on a 100-point scale - a score so bad the buildings now face demolition.

Welcome to BHO's healthcare, retirement plans, and anything else he gets his red hands on.

236 Dr. Shalit  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:20:59pm

In My Humble Opinion -

1. There was a Creator.

2. That Creator, afterwards, took a "Hands Off" position.

3. Darwin tracked what happened rather accurately.

That is all.

-S-

237 blue_like_jazz  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:21:08pm

re: #208 ggt

I heard a report on drive-time radio this morning that a little girl was born in England recently who is free of the hereditary breast cancer gene that has plagued every generation of females in her father's line. Beginning with her, subsequent generations will also be free of it.

This was accomplished thru science. Fertalized eggs were taken by the mother and evaluated. Those free of the gene were implanted.

Amazing!

that is scary as hell.

couple that technology with people like dawkins ("who's to say hitler wasn't right?") and you've got a eugenics nightmare on your hands.

238 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:21:12pm

re: #224 jcm


I had give theparson an upding and was on my way spooted the post and it was you, you cad, you had quoted it in full and I fell for the ruse and you received an up-ding in error.

239 mama winger  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:21:20pm

re: #158 ggt

We are in danger from Fundamentalists, both Christian and Islamic. They reject Classical Liberalism and ignore the core values on which this nation was founded. I find them no different than the Neo-Nazi's or Communists.

Ultimately, they want power. Not salvation.

I am a Christian fundamentalist. I believe the Bible to be the word of God. I endeavor to live my life according to my beliefs.

I am neither dangerous, a lunatic or comparable to radical islamists.

I in no way reject the core values on which our country was founded. On the contrary, I have worked all of my adult life to uphold these values, as have the children I raised both in the church and through Christian school.

If any one of you dare to question my patriotism, love of liberty, or dedication to this country's principles. and DARE to compare me to the most rabid and murderous scum of the earth..... because I think differently than you.......

I will not even grace that with a reply.


My son will protect you anyway next deployment.

240 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:21:36pm

re: #194 zmdavid

The ability to join fringe groups and hold odd views is a cherished right here in the U.S. As long as people stick to regular legal American institutions to push their cause they deserve at least some respect, at least in my opinion. That is why I am not worried as much about Christian Creationists as Islamic radicals or socialists.

So I should respect neo-nazis and cair?

241 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:21:56pm

re: #165 A Kiwi Infidel

Given that from 1776, the Bible formed the foudation of your great country, I would say that Christian fundamentalists are the very least of your problem. You should be more concerned that freedom of speech is being undermined, (it might start with shutting up the freedom of Christians to preach their "hate speech" but it will arrive on your doorstep soon enough), the removal of your right to bear arms for the protection of your families freedom (you may have that right now, but if part one comes true, gun owners will soon become criminals). And then, when your rights have been removed under the pretext of protecting you from fundamentalists, its all over Red Rover.

Sal: Actually, the majority of the Founding Fathers, such as Washington, Franklin and Jefferson, weren't particularly pious Christians. Freedom of Speech, particularly the Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America, is undermined when sectarian religious instruction is allowed in public schools, privileging some religious doctrines over others, as it abridges the right of people to have their children free from religious indoctrination with which they do not agree (which is why these laws keep getting overturned in court). And the US Supreme Court just affirmed the individual right for non-militia-connected US citizens to keep and bear for the first time in American history.

242 mama winger  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:21:59pm

And I do not desire power. That's just false.

I desire liberty. Just like you.

243 ggt  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:22:03pm

re: #191 wolfie

Fundamentalist Christians who want to dictate what both you and I should believe.

IIRC there is nothing in science that says the earth wasn't created in 7 days. Without a Sun and Moon, a day could have been millions of years.

Exploring the unknown is a danger to those who want power. Refusing to explore the unknown is a danger to all of us.

244 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:22:03pm

re: #229 opnion

Hey, I'm going out for silders. Anybody want anything?

Three young boys with no known family. Thanks.

245 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:22:12pm

re: #236 Dr. Shalit

In My Humble Opinion -

1. There was a Creator.

2. That Creator, afterwards, took a "Hands Off" position.

3. Darwin tracked what happened rather accurately.

That is all.

-S-

You are a deist

246 yochanan  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:23:04pm

FRANKLY I DON'T KNOW WHY THIS WHOLE DEBATE IS BECOMING SO IMPORTANT AT LGF. FRANKLY I DON'T GIVE A TINKERS DAMN ABOUT I.D., EVOLUTION ET AL. I CARE ABOUT ISLMO FASCISM, THE WAR ON TERROR, IRAN TRYING TO GET NUKES TO USE ON US OR ISRAEL. I FEEL THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WILL BE DAMAGING TO LGF. AND DEVIDE THE BLOG AND COMMUNITY. AND FOR WHAT BENIFIT?

AND YES I AM YELLING

247 jcm  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:23:20pm

re: #238 A Kiwi Infidel

I had give theparson an upding and was on my way spooted the post and it was you, you cad, you had quoted it in full and I fell for the ruse and you received an up-ding in error.

The fine art of stealing dings...
Go ding theparson!

248 sparrowlake  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:23:22pm

re: #218 Killian Bundy

Frankly, those who believe that the United States is in any danger of becoming a Christian Muslim theocracy are just not nearly as nuts as those who believe the Earth is 6000 years old.
/IMHO

Fixed it.

249 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:23:44pm

re: #238 A Kiwi Infidel

I had give theparson an upding and was on my way spooted the post and it was you, you cad, you had quoted it in full and I fell for the ruse and you received an up-ding in error.

Oh goody, you want me to go back up and down-ding jcm to keep things equal?

JCM, PUT DOWN THAT SHOTGUN!

250 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:23:46pm

And this seems like the 150th attack on McCain's military record from patriotic Democrats. Now, it's Webb.

The only folks who are going out of their way to mention military records are the leftists attacking McCain at Obama's behest.

Smear merchants one and all. And Obama is doing nothing about it except winking and nodding all the while.

251 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:24:03pm
252 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:24:46pm

re: #239 mama winger


And, that, ladies and gentlemen, is spoken by the sort of person who was and still is prepared to die for the freedom and liberty of her country, her family, her children and even those liberal cowards who will not fight. One up-ding.

253 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:24:53pm

re: #239 mama winger

I am a Christian fundamentalist. I believe the Bible to be the word of God. I endeavor to live my life according to my beliefs.

I am neither dangerous, a lunatic or comparable to radical islamists.

I in no way reject the core values on which our country was founded. On the contrary, I have worked all of my adult life to uphold these values, as have the children I raised both in the church and through Christian school.

If any one of you dare to question my patriotism, love of liberty, or dedication to this country's principles. and DARE to compare me to the most rabid and murderous scum of the earth..... because I think differently than you.......

I will not even grace that with a reply.


My son will protect you anyway next deployment.


Mama Winger, there you are! I have been looking for you all weekend.
Watch any baseball this weekend?
And God Bless your son.

254 mama winger  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:24:53pm

re: #251 buzzsawmonkey

Mama! A joy to see you!

I wish I could say it is a joy to be here.

I am shaking with dismay and anger.

255 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:25:11pm

re: #173 A Kiwi Infidel

Actually, Greco-Roman philosophical ideas were at least as important as Judeo-Christian religious concepts in the writing of the US Constitution.

256 zmdavid  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:25:23pm

re: #240 Sharmuta

So I should respect neo-nazis and cair?

If they do nothing illegal, yes. They both, I believe, do illegal stuff. Remember, I said some respect.

257 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:25:28pm

re: #247 jcm

Done, it seem I am in a dinging mood, so look out, they have all been ups, so far!

258 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:25:28pm

It's quite interesting to watch how the theory of evolution has itself evolved in the 150 years since it was proposed. And some aspects have been tested and proven, while others have fallen by the wayside.

259 wolfie  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:25:56pm

re: #229 opnion

Hey, I'm going out for silders. Anybody want anything?

What are silders?

260 jcm  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:26:02pm

re: #249 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Oh goody, you want me to go back up and down-ding jcm to keep things equal?

JCM, PUT DOWN THAT SHOTGUN!

Shotgun? Hell, start running! I'll give you a whole minute!

/ ;-P

261 jcbunga  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:26:09pm

re: #250 lawhawk

And this Now, it's Webb.

...saw Webb in person recently. His head is enormous. Infants and small woodland creatures were caught in its gravitational field and could not escape...he is a menace.

262 mobaby  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:26:15pm

re: #61 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Yes. You are right.

Theocracy is theocracy, no matter who's behind it.

I am a right-wing Christian believer, and let me tell you we have a looonngg way to go in setting up our theocracy. Oh, I know it's hard work, especially with all the kids we have and how disorganized our Churches are, and the general feeling that just keeping up with life and making our financial ends meet is challenging enough - but I guess we will have to get that ol' theocracy thing off the back burner and really start working on it. Right after I finish watching "So You Think You Can Dance" I will get right on it. Theocracies don't build themselves you know.

263 FamHistoryGuy  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:26:18pm

I have vol 2 of "The Letters of Asa Grey". This is a compilation of correspondence between Asa Grey and Charles Darwin. The pages are brittle and browned. Got it at an auction at Texas A & M about 1987. It was in with a large number of books. A lot of them were in German and texts on biology. The purchaser took what he wanted from the pile and then gave the rest away at a church to whoever wanted them. Got a couple of other late 1800's books as well. One by Adm. Farragut and the other in Flemish on the history of transportation.

264 MandyManners  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:26:23pm

re: #237 blue_like_jazz

that is scary as hell.

couple that technology with people like dawkins ("who's to say hitler wasn't right?") and you've got a eugenics nightmare on your hands.

What's scary about eliminating a devestating disease?

265 ggt  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:26:34pm

re: #199 tokyobk

It's the narrow interpretation of both religion and science that I don't understand. I see no conflict between the Bible and Evolution.

I also believe teh 10 commandments should be displayed in every court room. It is the basis of our way of life. I don't think one has to be a Religious Person to understand or belive that.

It's the combination of Reason and Judeo-Christian value that makes us what we are.

I just see fanatics on both sides wanting absolute power and I think that desire is at odds with the values of both.

266 tokyobk  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:27:12pm

re: #246 yochanan


AND YES I AM YELLING

It matters. Just as the fight against Islamo-fascism matters. Just as taking on the MSM matters. It is about the struggle of keeping on the flame of Enlightenment and Truth in the wind and darkness of untruth.

The common thread at LGF is holding thinking over dogma and superstition.

267 FrogMarch  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:27:13pm

re: #216 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

If it is truly Universal, won't they need NASA to run the school bus?

Out of the generoisty of leftist hearts - the former NASA scientists and astrophysicists will be offered bus driver jobs.
It's only fair.

268 yochanan  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:27:29pm

THIS WHOLE SUBJECT CAUSES SADNESS AND HURT AND FOR WHAT BENIFIT? NONE I CAN SEE.

I FOR ONE WISH IT WHOULD BE SENT TO THE MEMORY HOLE.

269 jcm  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:27:34pm

re: #265 ggt

It's the narrow interpretation of both religion and science that I don't understand. I see no conflict between the Bible and Evolution.

I also believe teh 10 commandments should be displayed in every court room. It is the basis of our way of life. I don't think one has to be a Religious Person to understand or belive that.

It's the combination of Reason and Judeo-Christian value that makes us what we are.

I just see fanatics on both sides wanting absolute power and I think that desire is at odds with the values of both.

Applause!

270 Alouette  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:28:17pm

re: #120 buzzsawmonkey

Nice. Doesn't have the riper lyrics, though:

O mademoiselle from Armentieres
Parley-voo
O mademoiselle from Armentieres
Parley-voo
O mademoiselle from Armentieres
......

Is this thread going to devolve into the raunchier verses of "Barnacle Bill the Sailor"

DRINK!

271 Boogberg  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:28:17pm

re: #246 yochanan

FRANKLY I DON'T GIVE A TINKERS DAMN ABOUT I.D., EVOLUTION ET AL.

Participate in the other threads then. Doh! :D

272 yochanan  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:28:29pm

re: #266 tokyobk

SEEMS TO ME IT IS CREATING A DIVISON FOR NO BENIFIT

273 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:28:30pm

re: #255 Salamantis

Actually, Greco-Roman philosophical ideas were at least as important as Judeo-Christian religious concepts in the writing of the US Constitution.


I am trying to find the quote that goes something like this.

I tried to find what made America great. I searched .........wherever.... but then I found it, it was in her churches, they were full every Sunday. That is what makes America great. The day America's churches are no longer full will be the day when America is no longer great.

Go to Church on Sunday, Salamantis?

274 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:28:37pm
275 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:28:40pm

re: #256 zmdavid

Respect is earned, not a given.

276 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:28:42pm

re: #254 mama winger

I wish I could say it is a joy to be here.

I am shaking with dismay and anger.

{mama winger}

277 mama winger  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:29:01pm

re: #274 buzzsawmonkey

Sorry to hear that. I, for one, have missed you.

And I you, my friend .

sigh

278 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:29:12pm

re: #246 yochanan

FRANKLY I DON'T KNOW WHY THIS WHOLE DEBATE IS BECOMING SO IMPORTANT AT LGF. FRANKLY I DON'T GIVE A TINKERS DAMN ABOUT I.D., EVOLUTION ET AL. I CARE ABOUT ISLMO FASCISM, THE WAR ON TERROR, IRAN TRYING TO GET NUKES TO USE ON US OR ISRAEL. I FEEL THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WILL BE DAMAGING TO LGF. AND DEVIDE THE BLOG AND COMMUNITY. AND FOR WHAT BENIFIT?

AND YES I AM YELLING


Hey bro. I am no Oracle & my Mensa app was not lost in the mail.
However I did opine that Israel shoud strike Iran during the campaign.
Mort kondarcke on Fox is now saying that is a huge rumor.
The purpose would be to make Obama take a stand. It would be smart.

279 jcm  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:29:15pm

re: #254 mama winger

I wish I could say it is a joy to be here.

I am shaking with dismay and anger.

{mama}

280 pingjockey  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:29:18pm

re: #259 wolfie
Navy slang for hamburgers.

281 mama winger  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:29:32pm

You have no idea how much .....

282 jcm  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:29:59pm

re: #280 pingjockey

Navy slang for hamburgers.

You picking up any bug juice?

283 yochanan  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:30:05pm

BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE I CARE ABOUT HAVE BEEN DEEPLY HURT BY THIS SUBJECT AND I FELT I MUST SAY MY PIECE. AND I AM NOT TAKING A SIDE ON THE SUBJECT ONE WAY OR THE OTHER.

284 eon  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:30:12pm

re: #236 Dr. Shalit

In My Humble Opinion -

1. There was a Creator.

2. That Creator, afterwards, took a "Hands Off" position.

3. Darwin tracked what happened rather accurately.

That is all.

-S-

Well said. According to what I was taught, it went sort of like this;


God initiates Big Bang.

He monitors situation for six billion years, concludes His creation is progressing as per expected parameters.

When sentience develops on schedule, He ensures that it includes moral sense (i.e., concept of right and wrong).


After which, He tells new sentients,


"It is now up to you. I am not going to interfere unless absolutely necessary.


"Try not to make a mess of things."

And with that, I'm off for the night. (Up since 0400 and my eyes are telling me "close down now if you want to be able to drive in the morning.")

Good night, Lizards.

And may God bless.

cheers

eon

285 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:30:54pm

Here it is.........

More than 150 years ago, French statesman Alexis de Tocqueville came to America looking for the secret of its greatness. He wrote:

I sought for the greatness and genius of America in her commodious harbors and her ample rivers — and it was not there … in her fertile fields and boundless forests — and it was not there … in her rich mines and her vast world commerce — and it was not there … in her democratic Congress and her matchless Constitution — and it was not there. Not until I went into the churches of America and heard her pulpits flame with righteous­ness did I understand the secret of her genius and power. America is great because she is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great

286 z  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:30:59pm
287 irish rose  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:31:20pm

re: #254 mama winger

Remember mama, it's only a discussion and just words on the screen. I know that it doesn't feel like that to you, but it is the truth.

I know that you hate some of what you are reading here and are personally offended by it. I see some things that I don't like on these discussion threads as well... but you can't control what people say or think. You can only control your own reaction to it.

Make yourself a nice cup of tea and visit some of the other threads for a while, it's nice to have you back.

288 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:31:47pm

'nite

289 blue_like_jazz  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:31:55pm

re: #264 MandyManners

because who gets to decide what is "worthy" of being eliminated?

what if one of the eggs with the cancer gene that wasn't allowed to be naturally fertilized also had the DNA to become the next margaret thatcher or beverly sills?

290 DesertSage  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:32:01pm

re: #281 mama winger

You have no idea how much .....

If I'm here, and I see someone harassing you because of your beliefs, you better believe that I will come to your defense!

291 tokyobk  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:32:16pm

re: #265 ggt

It's the narrow interpretation of both religion and science that I don't understand. I see no conflict between the Bible and Evolution. .


There is no conflict as long as the bible becomes allegorical (a day might mean 1 million years) etc...

That position though was forced on religion by scientific discovery.

At the time the founding texts were written they were meant to be believed.

I don't fear Christians directly, however, I am wary of any backwards steps in forcing measurable discovery into the confines of any of the religious texts which are as narrow in their understanding as to be expected from the limited world views of the men who obviously wrote them (and whose limitations in language, geography, history, "science" are very obvious).

292 pingjockey  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:32:16pm

re: #282 jcm
No more bug juice for me. Real kool aid. And real potatos not instant. Yaaaay!

293 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:32:19pm

re: #285 A Kiwi Infidel

The Churches didn't write either the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution. Men who understood we needed a separation between government and the clergy did.

294 sngnsgt  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:32:24pm

re: #260 jcm

LOL!

295 ryannon  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:32:32pm

Musical interlude:

296 yochanan  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:32:45pm

re: #286 z

AYN RAND was a thinker but if what William F. Buckley said had any truth as a person she left a lot to be desired.

297 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:33:49pm

re: #291 tokyobk

That's the crux of my biscuit; We can destroy ourselves much quicker and easier than outsiders.

298 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:33:59pm

re: #293 Sharmuta

The Churches didn't write either the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution. Men who understood we needed a separation between government and the clergy did.


Here, ladies and gentlemen, is a man who cant seperate a church from the man who attends, believes and worships within it.

299 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:33:59pm

re: #259 wolfie

What are silders?


Dear lady, they are actually White Castle Hamburgers.
The are really small & delicious. They are really greasy and the primary cause of death in the Midwest, but sooooo good!
I will get you an order of onion rings to go with them.
A party for your mouth!

300 mama winger  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:34:07pm

re: #290 DesertSage

If I'm here, and I see someone harassing you because of your beliefs, you better believe that I will come to your defense!

It's like someone described to me - Like walking into a party of your good friends, and finding out that they really think you're a weirdo.

And then they compare you to nazis.

301 quickjustice  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:34:11pm

re: #146 experiencedtraveller

As pointed out by his own second-in-command, Ellis Spear, in his personal diary, Joshua Chamberlain "gilded the lily" about his actions on Little Round Top, exaggerating his own importance. According to Spear, Chamberlain did not order the "wheeling" maneuver he later claimed; rather, the men of the 20th Maine, having been ordered to advance to cover the wounded, found themselves exposed to enemy sniper fire, and began an advance spontaneously, without orders.

Chamberlain and Spear, seeing what was happening, then ordered the rest of the unit to join the advance. Chamberlain then gave himself rather more credit than he deserved in his official report. Spear and Chamberlain argued about this for decades after the battle.

It's all described here: [Link: www.suite101.com...]

302 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:34:29pm

I'm outta here for the night.
A very good evening to all of you
.... and another hug for {mama}

303 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:34:52pm

re: #298 A Kiwi Infidel

1) I'm not a man.
2) You don't know me, so take your assumptions and shove it.

304 DesertSage  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:34:58pm

re: #293 Sharmuta

The Churches didn't write either the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution. Men who understood we needed a separation between government and the clergy did.

The same men who said that we were Endowed By Our Creator?

*just playing Devils advocate :')

305 jcm  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:35:04pm

re: #292 pingjockey

No more bug juice for me. Real kool aid. And real potatos not instant. Yaaaay!

Come you, liked the red bug juice you can admit it here.
Bet you liked SOS in the morning!
;-P

306 grumpy old codger  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:35:11pm

re: #264 MandyManners
In order to produce the one "perfect Specimen" they had to abort 5-6 fetuses. Need I go one?

307 Tigger2005  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:35:17pm

re: #165 A Kiwi Infidel

Given that from 1776, the Bible formed the foudation of your great country, I would say that Christian fundamentalists are the very least of your problem. You should be more concerned that freedom of speech is being undermined, (it might start with shutting up the freedom of Christians to preach their "hate speech" but it will arrive on your doorstep soon enough), the removal of your right to bear arms for the protection of your families freedom (you may have that right now, but if part one comes true, gun owners will soon become criminals). And then, when your rights have been removed under the pretext of protecting you from fundamentalists, its all over Red Rover.

Correction. The Bible is "a" foundation for our great country. If it was "the" foundation, it would have been declared so in the Constitution.

Actually our country has many strong foundations, stretching back to Hammurabi's Code, to the Law of the Hebrews, to Greek Democracy, to the Roman Republic, to the Protestant Reformation, to the Renaissance and the Enlightenment, to the Magna Carta and English Common Law.

Without attacking Christianity, I point to the historical fact that, in the thousand years that the Church held absolute power in the Western world, there was no democracy to be found anywhere. Yet just around 200-300 years after the Reformation, the Renaissance, and the Enlightenment, the greatest democratic civilization in human history was born.

One of our Founding Fathers, Thomas Jefferson, had the gall to actually REWRITE THE NEW TESTAMENT to reflect his belief that Jesus was an inspired teacher who priests had turned into a god in order to gain power over other men. Sheer blasphemy.

Again, I am not attacking the Bible or Christians or denying their contributions to modern Western civilization. But no, the Bible is not THE foundation of that civilization, it is ONE foundation.

308 Killian Bundy  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:35:27pm

re: #259 wolfie

What are silders?

White Castle

/don't forget the onion chips

309 jcm  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:35:30pm

re: #302 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I'm outta here for the night.
A very good evening to all of you
.... and another hug for {mama}

Night pBMb!

310 mama winger  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:35:33pm

re: #302 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Thank you sweeetie - and goodnight to you :)

have a good one

311 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:35:35pm

re: #237 blue_like_jazz

people like dawkins ("who's to say hitler wasn't right?")

Got a reference for that "quote"?
/Betcha don't

312 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:35:49pm

re: #293 Sharmuta


And thankyou, theparson, if you are still reading, because it is that sort of post that allows my sin of anger to creep in and try to get me to react badly.

313 yochanan  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:36:04pm

I don't see the benifit of this subject. nothing positive.

314 itellu3times  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:36:34pm

re: #178 theparson

And to my friends on the other side. I admit an ignorance concerning this subject. I am not a scientist. I confess to a belief in the Biblical account of creation.

I'm sorry, my friend, you sound like a fine fellow, but I gave this a down ding. If you have ignorance of the subject, then all I can do with your beliefs in what you know is to shrug, and hope it works out well for you. It seems inappropriate even to talk about the other side, in such a case. I'm of the opinion there really aren't two sides anyway, except for the informed side and the ignorant side, faith and science cannot really be in conflict if you get them both right!

315 pingjockey  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:36:45pm

re: #305 jcm
Nah, liked the orange better. I like SOS as long as it is real chipped beef!

316 Thanos  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:36:49pm

re: #94 Salamantis

Sal: I guess you didn't see what Charles found out about Ol' Dinesh:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

It goes hand in glove with some morally twisted Chrisitan YEC bloggers carrying all kinds of anti-islam blog bling, but then linking to Harun Yahya.. The Hadith are right in his sidebar.

317 wolfie  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:36:58pm

re: #255 Salamantis

Actually, Greco-Roman philosophical ideas were at least as important as Judeo-Christian religious concepts in the writing of the US Constitution.

Even more important was the English Common Law, BTW.

318 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:37:05pm

re: #307 Tigger2005

Oh- but you'll have assumptions made about you for pointing out the historical record.

319 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:37:21pm

re: #303 Sharmuta

1) I'm not a man.
2) You don't know me, so take your assumptions and shove it.


Duly shoved ma'am, but you still missed the point

320 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:37:23pm

re: #221 anduril3019

If an openly Christian organization gives out materials that promote a creationist world view, how is this underhanded?

Sal: When they get a law passed by a fundamentalist legislature so they can insinuate cynically renamed sectarian religious doctrine into that state's public high school science class, I would hardly call that aboveboard.

321 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:37:23pm

re: #303 Sharmuta

I'm not a man

Who'd have ever known?

(That's a follow-thru on that guy last night, Sharm)
(-:
have a great evening, I'm gone

322 yochanan  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:37:38pm

i for one feel the pain coming from MAMA WINGER and it makes me sad

323 jcm  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:37:48pm

re: #315 pingjockey

Nah, liked the orange better. I like SOS as long as it is real chipped beef!

We got good sausage SOS at the end of the quarter when they were trying to spend all the funds.

324 Pvt Bin Jammin  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:38:20pm

re: #300 mama winger
I certainly would never think you were a weirdo, {Mama Winger}. You are much loved by myself and here at LGF.

325 DesertSage  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:38:32pm

re: #300 mama winger

It's like someone described to me - Like walking into a party of your good friends, and finding out that they really think you're a weirdo.

And then they compare you to nazis.

Mama, Lao Stinky said a few days ago that belief in God does not preclude belief in evolution...and visa versa.

Your belief is sacred. If anyone calls you a Nazi because of it, then they are way out of line...and they will be called on it.

326 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:38:34pm

re: #312 A Kiwi Infidel

IT'S A HISTORICAL FACT! Facts upset you, do they? Our Founders felt the need to have a separation between Church and State. Americans cherish this.

327 Thanos  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:38:40pm

re: #177 Boogberg

Ah yes. The "John Birch Society". What the hell's up with those weirdos?

They are hanging with Pat Buchanan and Lew Rockwell nowadays. You can also find them at VDARE, Chalcedon, Stormfront, etc.

328 pingjockey  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:38:46pm

re: #323 jcm
Sausage is okay. Don't like it when they use hamburger.

329 mama winger  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:38:48pm

re: #318 Sharmuta

Oh- but you'll have assumptions made about you for pointing out the historical record.

I thought I read some of your comments encouraging others to grow a thicker skin.

Might be applicable here.

330 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:39:01pm

re: #308 Killian Bundy

White Castle

/don't forget the onion chips

When we were youts, two in the mornig. Nothig better!

331 jcbunga  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:39:02pm

re: #312 A Kiwi Infidel

And thankyou, theparson, if you are still reading, because it is that sort of post that allows my sin of anger to creep in and try to get me to react badly.

I have Kiwi friends, and it is clear to me that we all will sleep safely in our beds as long as there are Marines and Kiwi's--especially the All Blacks--between us and the bad guys.

332 ggt  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:39:06pm

re: #239 mama winger

Mama, I've said it in another thread, more than once. I think the subject is reft with labels. It's hard not to get around them.

I don't think we have a common understanding of the definition of words such as:

Christian Fundamentalist --when I think this word I think of the FDLS, those who want to persecute homosexuals and think women need to be controlled.

Darwinism --when I hear this word, I think, whacked out scientists who are more concerned with people's belief or lack of belief than in pursing empirical science.

Evolution --I think of --Charles Darwin and his writings.

I apoligize if you feel I lumped you and other Lizards into the Fundamentalist (as I think of Fundamentalist). I feel constrained by lack of property terminology and common understand of what words mean.

I welcome Lizard input --or even better a common dictionary.

333 mama winger  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:39:46pm

re: #325 DesertSage

I'm keeping that ring you sent stole for me.

334 LeePro  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:40:01pm

re: #265 ggt

It's the narrow interpretation of both religion and science that I don't understand. I see no conflict between the Bible and Evolution.

I also believe teh 10 commandments should be displayed in every court room. It is the basis of our way of life. I don't think one has to be a Religious Person to understand or belive that.

It's the combination of Reason and Judeo-Christian value that makes us what we are.

I just see fanatics on both sides wanting absolute power and I think that desire is at odds with the values of both.

BRAVO!

335 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:40:10pm

re: #319 A Kiwi Infidel

Duly shoved ma'am, but you still missed the point

No- I haven't. More than the Bible went into the forming of this country. Please see Tigger2005's post at #307.

336 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:40:15pm

re: #322 yochanan

i for one feel the pain coming from MAMA WINGER and it makes me sad

Yeah

337 Tigger2005  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:40:42pm

re: #246 yochanan

FRANKLY I DON'T KNOW WHY THIS WHOLE DEBATE IS BECOMING SO IMPORTANT AT LGF. FRANKLY I DON'T GIVE A TINKERS DAMN ABOUT I.D., EVOLUTION ET AL. I CARE ABOUT ISLMO FASCISM, THE WAR ON TERROR, IRAN TRYING TO GET NUKES TO USE ON US OR ISRAEL. I FEEL THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WILL BE DAMAGING TO LGF. AND DEVIDE THE BLOG AND COMMUNITY. AND FOR WHAT BENIFIT?

AND YES I AM YELLING

Why should vigorous debate be damaging to a true community?

The best friends are those who can argue their asses off and share a drink and a laugh afterwards.

338 MandyManners  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:40:48pm

re: #306 grumpy old codger

In order to produce the one "perfect Specimen" they had to abort 5-6 fetuses. Need I go one?

A fertilized egg is a fetus? Since when?

339 ASU86PE  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:41:17pm

re: #293 Sharmuta

Actually the Declaration of Independence and The U.S. Constitution depend on biblical logic.

340 wolfie  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:41:24pm

re: #273 A Kiwi Infidel

I am trying to find the quote that goes something like this.

I tried to find what made America great. I searched .........wherever.... but then I found it, it was in her churches, they were full every Sunday. That is what makes America great. The day America's churches are no longer full will be the day when America is no longer great.

Go to Church on Sunday, Salamantis?

Alexis deToqueville, in Democracy in America.

341 blue_like_jazz  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:41:59pm

re: #311 Killgore Trout

Got a reference for that "quote"?
/Betcha don't

sorry to disappoint

342 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:42:15pm

re: #337 Tigger2005

Why should vigorous debate be damaging to a true community?

The best friends are those who can argue their asses off and share a drink and a laugh afterwards.


Thats right. There shoud not be such acrimony. The subject is facinating.

343 Thanos  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:42:19pm

re: #239 mama winger

I am a Christian fundamentalist. I believe the Bible to be the word of God. I endeavor to live my life according to my beliefs.

I am neither dangerous, a lunatic or comparable to radical islamists.

I in no way reject the core values on which our country was founded. On the contrary, I have worked all of my adult life to uphold these values, as have the children I raised both in the church and through Christian school.

If any one of you dare to question my patriotism, love of liberty, or dedication to this country's principles. and DARE to compare me to the most rabid and murderous scum of the earth..... because I think differently than you.......

I will not even grace that with a reply.


My son will protect you anyway next deployment.


Mama, we all love you and yours. However there are extreme fundamentalists who would mess with the constitution given the chance. There are those who call for stoning of adulterers, children who strike their parents, and gays.
They particularly hate article VI, and Ammendment 1.

344 yochanan  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:42:55pm

re: #336 opnion

one of the reasons i don't debate RELIGION

345 Boogberg  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:43:02pm

re: #304 DesertSage

The same men who said that we were Endowed By Our Creator?

*just playing Devils advocate :')

A few of 'em thought slavery was cool, too. But then, everyone who was anyone was doing it.

346 mama winger  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:43:05pm

re: #332 ggt

I appreciate that terminology can be loose, and lead to misunderstandings. That's why I think it is important to use these loaded words very carefully. I am sure I took your statement in a way that it was not meant - It's just that there are a lot of others just like me who DO consider themselves fundamentalists, without that negative baggage attached.

To me - being a fundamentalist means taking the Bible at its plain reading and living accordingly.

To me - it is the most positive of life! I revel and rejoice in my relationship with God, and wouldn't turn my back on it no matter the cost.

347 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:43:28pm

re: #237 blue_like_jazz

that is scary as hell.

couple that technology with people like dawkins ("who's to say hitler wasn't right?") and you've got a eugenics nightmare on your hands.

I just googled the phrase "Who's to say Hitler wasn't right" and got zero hits. Please furnish the link where Dawkins said such a thing.

348 mama winger  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:44:05pm

ggt - thank you again for your response - I appreciate it.

349 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:44:26pm

re: #326 Sharmuta

IT'S A HISTORICAL FACT! Facts upset you, do they? Our Founders felt the need to have a separation between Church and State. Americans cherish this.


Read this, then,

It seems there is an awfully large number of references to the Almight God.

Now theres a fact.

You want to prove otherwise? You will fail. You will fail because your founding fathers always assumed that the Worship of the Almighty God was a given with the home, the family, the workplace, the Church, the halls of power, the benches of justice.

It was a bad assumption, sadly.

350 blue_like_jazz  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:44:56pm

re: #347 Salamantis

I just googled the phrase "Who's to say Hitler wasn't right" and got zero hits. Please furnish the link where Dawkins said such a thing.

see my #341

351 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:44:59pm

re: #339 ASU86PE

Was there something factually incorrect about my #293?

352 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:45:03pm
353 itellu3times  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:45:04pm

re: #347 Salamantis

I just googled the phrase "Who's to say Hitler wasn't right" and got zero hits. Please furnish the link where Dawkins said such a thing.

I don't care to even read the links, but you get some candidates from:
[Link: www.google.com...]

354 LeePro  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:45:06pm

re: #280 pingjockey

Navy slang for hamburgers.

when spelled correctly...

Isn't it "sliders"...? Not silders...

heh

355 sngnsgt  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:45:08pm

re: #344 yochanan

one of the reasons i don't debate RELIGION

Ditto, the only way to win that game is not to play at all.

356 Alouette  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:45:13pm

re: #229 opnion

Hey, I'm going out for silders. Anybody want anything?

What are silders?

357 mama winger  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:45:26pm

re: #324 Pvt Bin Jammin

Thank so much. that means a lot.

358 wolfie  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:45:46pm

re: #291 tokyobk

The idea that a "day" in Genesis might mean a million years dates back in Christianity at least to the 2nd century. (I'll bet it's older in Judaism, BTW, tho I don't know.)
It wasn't "forced" on anybody by "modern science.""

359 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:45:47pm

re: #347 Salamantis


I just googled "Bible's influence on American Constitution" and got 255,000 hits.

360 sparrowlake  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:46:05pm

re: #239 mama winger

I am a Christian fundamentalist. I believe the Bible to be the word of God. I endeavor to live my life according to my beliefs.
I am neither dangerous, a lunatic or comparable to radical islamists.
I in no way reject the core values on which our country was founded. On the contrary, I have worked all of my adult life to uphold these values, as have the children I raised both in the church and through Christian school.
If any one of you dare to question my patriotism, love of liberty, or dedication to this country's principles. and DARE to compare me to the most rabid and murderous scum of the earth..... because I think differently than you.......
I will not even grace that with a reply.
My son will protect you anyway next deployment.

Hi Mama! Good to see you.
As you well know, a Christian fundamentalist is not the same as a religious zealot.
I am confident and comfortable that good Christians like you have not and would never want to impose your religious beliefs on others by way of legislation or force.
You have my mutual respect and tolerance.
Please don't let some of the ill-considered comments here get to you.

361 yochanan  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:46:33pm

re: #349 A Kiwi Infidel

IT wasn't all or nothing with the nation's founders. most of them believed in G-D. what they did not want was a STATE RELIGION which isn't the same as what current secularists believe now. THE ACLU IS WRONG HERE.

362 spacejesus  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:46:40pm

re: #339 ASU86PE

Actually the Declaration of Independence and The U.S. Constitution depend on biblical logic.


what?

363 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:46:41pm

re: #349 A Kiwi Infidel

That's not the Constitution of the United States, which is the supreme law of this country, the Preamble to which mentions "God" exactly zero times.

364 Josephine  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:46:43pm

re: #79 wolfie

Looking at it from a catholic (all times and places) perspective, it's a very tiny segment of Christianity.

I have no idea what percentage of Christians are Pentecostal; that is my experience with young earth creationism based on a literal interpretation of the Bible.

You will see some familiar talking points in the "Beliefs" sections of the Assemblies of God website:

Creationism

The Doctrine of Creation

Wiki says of the church:

"The World Assemblies of God Fellowship, or Assemblies of God for short, is the world's largest Pentecostal denomination, with over 283,413 churches and outstations in over 200 countries (including 12,311 churches in the U.S.) and approximately 57 million adherents worldwide."

365 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:46:53pm

re: #243 ggt

Fundamentalist Christians who want to dictate what both you and I should believe.

IIRC there is nothing in science that says the earth wasn't created in 7 days. Without a Sun and Moon, a day could have been millions of years.

Exploring the unknown is a danger to those who want power. Refusing to explore the unknown is a danger to all of us.

Sal: I think the 'seven day' thing is stretching it a bit...(well, actually just the opposite; truncating it...but you know what I mean...;~)

366 mobaby  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:46:59pm

re: #97 Killgore Trout

If they succeed in undermining science education in this country (which I don't hink they will) they are a far greater threat that radical Islam. If they succeed we will be a 3rd world country in a few short generations. It would take radical Islam much longer to destroy us.

Believe me - there's nothing to undermine. Check out your local public school. In my neighborhood, undermining the public school would mean you actually want to change the status quo and teach something for a change. Of course, it would help if the parents actually cared. And I think you might be shocked that many of those you fear are destroying education actually do care that their kids learn - and they tend to excel.

367 wolfie  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:47:10pm

re: #299 opnion

Yum !

368 mama winger  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:47:24pm

re: #360 sparrowlake

thank you sparrowlake. I appreciate that more than you know.

369 BBev  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:47:26pm

re: #246 yochanan

FRANKLY I DON'T KNOW WHY THIS WHOLE DEBATE IS BECOMING SO IMPORTANT AT LGF. FRANKLY I DON'T GIVE A TINKERS DAMN ABOUT I.D., EVOLUTION ET AL. I CARE ABOUT ISLMO FASCISM, THE WAR ON TERROR, IRAN TRYING TO GET NUKES TO USE ON US OR ISRAEL. I FEEL THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WILL BE DAMAGING TO LGF. AND DEVIDE THE BLOG AND COMMUNITY. AND FOR WHAT BENIFIT?

AND YES I AM YELLING

CHARLES I LOVE YA DUDE AND RESPECT WHAT YOU ARE DOING BUT WE HAVE BIGGER FISH TO FRY RIGHT NOW, CAN WE GET BACK TO THIS LATER?

370 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:47:27pm

re: #359 A Kiwi Infidel

I googled "obama brilliant capitalist" and got 1,000,000 hits.

371 Alouette  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:47:28pm

re: #299 opnion

Dear lady, they are actually White Castle Hamburgers.
The are really small & delicious. They are really greasy and the primary cause of death in the Midwest, but sooooo good!
I will get you an order of onion rings to go with them.
A party for your mouth!

I thought those are SLIDERS!

372 pingjockey  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:47:33pm

re: #354 LeePro
Mwahaha! Didn't even catch that. Plus everyone who mentioned White Castle made me sad. Haven't had one of those burgers since 1985. Don't have them in San Diego or up here in Wash. state.

373 experiencedtraveller  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:47:37pm

re: #301 quickjustice

As pointed out by his own second-in-command, Ellis Spear, in his personal diary, Joshua Chamberlain "gilded the lily" about his actions on Little Round Top, exaggerating his own importance. According to Spear, Chamberlain did not order the "wheeling" maneuver he later claimed; rather, the men of the 20th Maine, having been ordered to advance to cover the wounded, found themselves exposed to enemy sniper fire, and began an advance spontaneously, without orders.

Chamberlain and Spear, seeing what was happening, then ordered the rest of the unit to join the advance. Chamberlain then gave himself rather more credit than he deserved in his official report. Spear and Chamberlain argued about this for decades after the battle.

It's all described here: [Link: www.suite101.com...]

Thanks! Very interesting stuff. Whatever exactly transpired in all that chaos we can be sure that Chamberlain understood the enormity of the position and ordered bayonets when the ammunition ran out.

Chamberlain's book, The Passing of the Armies, is on my list.

374 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:47:39pm

I gotta go, but it has been a nice debate.

Thanks Mama, I will remember your faithfulness and pray for you, your family and your son.

375 Pvt Bin Jammin  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:47:49pm

re: #357 mama winger
You're very welcome.

You can't believe how many lizards have been missing you. Good to see you back.

376 offendi  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:47:49pm

Wonder where Wesley Clark stands on all this?

Darwin doesn't have executive experience?

377 yochanan  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:48:06pm

i want to give ((((MAMA WINGER)))) A HUG.

378 mama winger  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:48:14pm

re: #366 mobaby

And I think you might be shocked that many of those you fear are destroying education actually do care that their kids learn - and they tend to excel.

A thousand ups

379 ggt  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:48:16pm

re: #304 DesertSage

The same men who said that we were Endowed By Our Creator?

*just playing Devils advocate :')

I think that is an especially important quote. Yes, rights granted to us by Our Creator, not determined by a king, an empress, or a bishop, or a pope. No human, no one on Earth and grant or deny our rights.

I think it is interesting that the Founders did not write anything to define or limit one's understanding of Our Creator.

380 mama winger  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:48:42pm

re: #374 A Kiwi Infidel

I gotta go, but it has been a nice debate.

Thanks Mama, I will remember your faithfulness and pray for you, your family and your son.

Thank you sweetheart.

381 yochanan  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:49:18pm

re: #369 BBev

after we have defeated islmo fascism and terrorism.

382 tokyobk  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:49:19pm

re: #358 wolfie

The idea that a "day" in Genesis might mean a million years dates back in Christianity at least to the 2nd century. (I'll bet it's older in Judaism, BTW, tho I don't know.)
It wasn't "forced" on anybody by "modern science.""

The use of the word 'yom' in the Torah means day. 'sheshet yamim' means seven days. period.

There were rabbis as early the Talmud who began to spin that.

It was the result of starting to figure out through observation and measurement and an attempt to bridge the gap between actual and biblical.

I am all for religious tolerance, obviously, as long as it does not govern my ability to think and observe and measure without any sense of wading into heresy.

383 mama winger  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:49:23pm

re: #377 yochanan

i want to give ((((MAMA WINGER)))) A HUG.

I LOVE IT WHEN YOU YELL "HUG" ! ! !

lol

{yochanan}

:)

384 Thanos  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:49:30pm

re: #339 ASU86PE

Actually the Declaration of Independence and The U.S. Constitution depend on biblical logic.

G-D is not mentioned once in the constitution, Church does not appear. Religion appears in Ammendment one, and in article VI the word religious appears.

Democracy appeared before Christianity, and Republics did as well.

The constitution in particular veers away from religion specifically because they did not want a wrangle between proponents of various state sanctioned religions established by state constitutions.

The purpose of the American Revolution was fullfilled when we overthrew the divine right of kings on our shores.

385 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:50:06pm
386 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:50:34pm

re: #341 blue_like_jazz

"Who's to say Hitler wasn't right" isn't in that article you linked to. Is this how you display your superior moral values; by fabricating quotes? Once again I ask you the provide a link to the "quote" you attributed to Dawkins. It doesn't exist, now does it?

387 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:50:41pm

re: #344 yochanan

one of the reasons i don't debate RELIGION

Sox & Cleveland tied one to one in the 7th.
I was out ther last night. Whoa, sell out on a Monday night!
Go Sox!

388 Slumbering Behemoth  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:50:44pm

re: #165 A Kiwi Infidel

Given that from 1776, the Bible formed the foudation of your great country

Please explain.

389 sngnsgt  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:51:16pm

re: #356 Alouette

White Castle!

390 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:51:19pm

re: #252 A Kiwi Infidel

And, that, ladies and gentlemen, is spoken by the sort of person who was and still is prepared to die for the freedom and liberty of her country, her family, her children and even those liberal cowards who will not fight. One up-ding.

Sal: I am a US military veteran and a person who is convinced by the massive mountain of scientific evidence supporting evolutionary theory. I am just as patriotic, and just as antijihadi, as anyone here. I hazard to wager that I am far from the only evolutionary theory supporter to serve his country.

391 yochanan  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:51:33pm

re: #387 opnion

go sox baseball i will debate.

392 anduril3019  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:51:38pm

re: #320 Salamantis

Who are they? What law did they get passed? What did they insinuate? Cynical? Sectarian religious doctrine, OK, I'll give you that one. What state?

My comment was related directly to the article about asking that schools in New Zealand distribute their materials. Again, where is the underhandedness? Take it easy. Maybe you know something about this I don't, but the linked article says nothing about anything you mentioned. You're sounding just a tad defensive.

393 itellu3times  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:51:44pm

re: #341 blue_like_jazz

sorry to disappoint

“Yes, absolutely fascinating.” His response was immediate. “What’s to prevent us from saying Hitler wasn’t right? I mean, that is a genuinely difficult question. But whatever [defines morality], it’s not the Bible. If it was, we’d be stoning people for breaking the Sabbath.”

I was stupefied. He had readily conceded that his own philosophical position did not offer a rational basis for moral judgments. His intellectual honesty was refreshing, if somewhat disturbing on this point.

Well, I don't want to wade into this entirely, but I will offer a link to perhaps the most famous of secular attempts to offer a rational basis for moral judgements, the point being they are quite common, and often differ very little from the guidelines others get from religion.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

394 sparrowlake  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:52:21pm

re: #368 mama winger

{Mama} I missed you.

395 Boogberg  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:52:40pm

re: #327 Thanos

They are hanging with Pat Buchanan and Lew Rockwell nowadays. You can also find them at VDARE, Chalcedon, Stormfront, etc.

I might have fucking guessed. Pathetic.

396 LeePro  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:52:42pm

re: #290 DesertSage

If I'm here, and I see someone harassing you because of your beliefs, you better believe that I will come to your defense!

Yayyyyyyyyyyy, SAGE ! ! !

You're a { { {SWEETIE} } } !

He means it, Mama!

397 SpaceJesus  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:52:55pm

People who believe our (US) system of government has anything to do with Christianity need to go back to history class and try not to fail this time.

398 solomonpanting  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:52:58pm

re: #285 A Kiwi Infidel

Not until I went into the churches of America and heard her pulpits flame with righteous­ness did I understand the secret of her genius and power. America is great because she is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great
...

I suppose one could make the case that "righteous­ness" may include notions of scientific thought, or that one may be righteous and adhere to scientific thought, or that righteousness is from Mars and scientific thought is from Venus. But I don't necessarily see how one precludes the other.

399 Slumbering Behemoth  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:53:02pm

re: #173 A Kiwi Infidel

Your nation was founded on the values and morals contained in the Bible, not liberalism.

I take it you're not familiar with the term "classical liberalism".

400 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:53:20pm

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For that reason alone, people of other faiths have been afforded freedom of worship here." - Patrick Henry.

401 nyc redneck  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:53:20pm

re: #300 mama winger

It's like someone described to me - Like walking into a party of your good friends, and finding out that they really think you're a weirdo.

And then they compare you to nazis.

mama winger, you are my favorite.
a combination of intelligence, wit, humor, goodness, kindness and a solid patriot. i really admire you. and respect your religious views.
you are much appreciated here at lgf by everyone.

402 yochanan  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:53:27pm

for this Jew religion is a personal matter. I don't debate it.

403 ASU86PE  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:53:30pm

re: #50 eon
But the logic is flawed. I cannot replicate the action of today just as you cannot but yet we know it happened with logic and certainty.
Stop throwing repeated outcomes as a discrediting of creation. It will never be replicated just as today.

404 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:53:41pm

re: #367 wolfie
I'm on my way!

405 BBev  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:54:12pm

Charles to respond to my 369.. I have a moonbat family that is voting way wrong from what I would expect, one voting one way others voting the other. This election is just so fucked up and our way of life to me is on the line. I will not be a good socialist.

406 kansas  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:54:49pm

re: #370 Sharmuta

I googled "obama brilliant capitalist" and got 1,000,000 hits.

I only got 1/2 million on that but got over 6 million on Obama Terrorist.

407 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:55:09pm
408 yochanan  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:55:34pm

re: #397 SpaceJesus

it wasn't about christian theology BUT IT WAS A LOT ABOUT CHRISTIAN CULTURE. GO LOOK AT GEO. WASHINGTON AND THANKSGIVING DAY.

409 spaceman  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:55:44pm

If there is one true thing I have noticed about people, it's that at the end of the day, most will believe what they want to believe. And this applies double to politics.

410 BBev  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:56:13pm

re: #381 yochanan

after we have defeated islmo fascism and terrorism.

Right on. I understand why Charles is doing what he is doing and I agree with him.

411 mama winger  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:56:50pm

re: #401 nyc redneck

I have missed you sweetie.

Thanks so much for your kindness.

I think I'll sign off now - goodnight everyone and please treat each other with the thoughtfulness and respect we have all come to treasure here on LGF.

We hang together or we hang seperately, eh?

412 ggt  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:56:55pm

re: #346 mama winger

Mama, can we come-up with a term that accurately describes the whacko's on the Christian side? I call the Islamawhackos, Islamawhackos. Other's have used Islamafascists and other terms.

The MSM does us no help when they use the term Christian Fundamentalist either.

I personally don't think the whackos are particulary Christian either.

How about just "religious whacko's"?

413 zmdavid  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:56:56pm

If we throw out the notion of creationism, can we still claim to be endowed by our creator with inalienable rights, or are those gone, too? I suppose it depends on your definition of creationism.

414 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:57:02pm

re: #406 kansas

My point was that googling something and spouting the results of an internet search is proof of nothing.

415 ggt  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:57:13pm

BTW, if I haven't asked lately, Thank your son for me.

416 yochanan  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:57:45pm

re: #410 BBev

AT THIS POINT I DON'T UNDERSTAND IT. but i will be respectful as this is not my house.

417 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:57:57pm

re: #273 A Kiwi Infidel

I am trying to find the quote that goes something like this.

I tried to find what made America great. I searched .........wherever.... but then I found it, it was in her churches, they were full every Sunday. That is what makes America great. The day America's churches are no longer full will be the day when America is no longer great.

Go to Church on Sunday, Salamantis?

After a fashion, although it's mot on sundays. I am a Pagan.

Now we'll see how religiously tolerant YOU are; we already had to sue the US for a whole decade so that Pagan military members who gave their last full measure of devotion on the battlefields of Afghanistan and Iraq got to be interred in military cemetaries with the symbol of their faith on their headstone.

418 blue_like_jazz  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:58:02pm

re: #386 Killgore Trout

"Who's to say Hitler wasn't right" isn't in that article you linked to. Is this how you display your superior moral values; by fabricating quotes? Once again I ask you the provide a link to the "quote" you attributed to Dawkins. It doesn't exist, now does it?

um, YES IT DOES EXIST.

scroll about halfway down to where it says The Rising Popularity of Atheism and read down a few paragraphs.

and i expect an apology.

419 tokyobk  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:58:25pm

re: #408 yochanan

it wasn't about christian theology BUT IT WAS A LOT ABOUT CHRISTIAN CULTURE. GO LOOK AT GEO. WASHINGTON AND THANKSGIVING DAY.


Agreed. I am neither white nor Christian nor Anglo-Saxon but it is obvious to me that it was a collection of traits from that culture that got things going in America and allowed for other influences. The deist part was very important as well.

420 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:58:29pm
421 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:58:57pm

re: #408 yochanan

it wasn't about christian theology BUT IT WAS A LOT ABOUT CHRISTIAN CULTURE. GO LOOK AT GEO. WASHINGTON AND THANKSGIVING DAY.

Yeah thats it. We were not founded as a Theocracy, but there was a lot of Judeo/Chistian ethos in the founding of this nation. There just was.

422 LeePro  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:59:52pm

re: #306 grumpy old codger

In order to produce the one "perfect Specimen" they had to abort 5-6 fetuses. Need I go one?

Where the hell did you get aborted fetuses?

"Fertilized eggs" are not aborted (KILLED) fetuses!

423 kansas  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:00:13pm

re: #414 Sharmuta

My point was that googling something and spouting the results of an internet search is proof of nothing.

I was just demonstrating your point. And changing the subject at the same time.

424 Tigger2005  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:00:28pm

re: #385 taxfreekiller

tfk been around a bit, been out in the peoples woods with life long
atheist who bragged about that, had the degrees and such to prove they were the science guys, but, once the zzzz and thud, and crack,crack,crack of the ak's started, every last one of them asked tfk to pray for them and or did the sign themselves.

just that

A long way of saying there are no atheists in foxholes.

Which, of course, is not 100% true.

But I am in debt to you for your service.

425 MandyManners  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:00:35pm

re: #411 mama winger

I have missed you sweetie.

Thanks so much for your kindness.

I think I'll sign off now - goodnight everyone and please treat each other with the thoughtfulness and respect we have all come to treasure here on LGF.

We hang together or we hang seperately, eh?

Bingo!

Sweet dreams.

426 ggt  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:01:34pm

Gotta go for now

427 Zach_the_Lizard  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:02:24pm

Darwin / Huxley '08!

428 Thanos  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:02:31pm

KT: I also remember reading a quote from Dawkins to that effect.

Spacejesus: much of our law is clearly derived from Judeo-Christian influences. To say there is none isn't right.

/ just keeping the scorecards straight, facts are facts.

429 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:02:41pm

re: #418 blue_like_jazz

um, YES IT DOES EXIST.

scroll about halfway down to where it says The Rising Popularity of Atheism and read down a few paragraphs.

and i expect an apology.

Can't you read your own reference? It says...

“What’s to prevent us from saying Hitler wasn’t right?"

A very different meaning than what you quoted.

Geeeessshhh.

Walter in Golden, Co.

430 SpaceJesus  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:02:57pm

re: #408 yochanan

it wasn't about christian theology BUT IT WAS A LOT ABOUT CHRISTIAN CULTURE. GO LOOK AT GEO. WASHINGTON AND THANKSGIVING DAY.


Look around Washington D.C. Take a look at the architecture there and tell me what culture you think early America was trying to emulate.

As for Thanksgiving day, that comment is wrong on so many levels I don't even know how to begin.

431 sparrowlake  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:03:40pm

re: #382 tokyobk

'sheshet yamim' means seven days. period.

Six.
On the seventh day God (if there is one) rested.

432 ASU86PE  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:03:42pm

re: #384 Thanos
The "divine" Right of Kings was a fourteen century concoction; most notably Louis XIV.

Biblical logic is evident and there's really no dispute. It's history not me.

Yes ,there were elections prior to Christianity, but this was about Darwin and his lost thoughts. It just got tangential on to this issue.

433 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:04:17pm

re: #304 DesertSage

The same men who said that we were Endowed By Our Creator?

*just playing Devils advocate :')

Umm...that wasn't the US Constitution; that was the declaration of Independence...

434 SpaceJesus  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:05:03pm

re: #428 Thanos

KT: I also remember reading a quote from Dawkins to that effect.

Spacejesus: much of our law is clearly derived from Judeo-Christian influences. To say there is none isn't right.

/ just keeping the scorecards straight, facts are facts.


Our laws and judicial system are based on Roman, Greek, and Pagan German legal traditions which predate Christianity by hundreds of years.

435 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:05:26pm

re: #418 blue_like_jazz

Your "quote": ("Who's to say Hitler wasn't right")does not exist in that article. You are paraphrasing and twisting his meaning.....

At this point, perhaps a word of explanation is necessary. Zeitgeist is a German word meaning “spirit of the age.” Dawkins here refers to the prevailing moral climate or mood of a given place or time. We may observe that what constitutes moral or ethical behavior differs from one culture to another; indeed, it may even differ within a given culture. This is not in dispute. The question, rather, is this: should moral standards be based on the societal zeitgeist or should they look beyond it to something else?

I asked an obvious question: “As we speak of this shifting zeitgeist, how are we to determine who’s right? If we do not acknowledge some sort of external [standard], what is to prevent us from saying that the Muslim [extremists] aren’t right?”

“Yes, absolutely fascinating.” His response was immediate. “What’s to prevent us from saying Hitler wasn’t right? I mean, that is a genuinely difficult question. But whatever [defines morality], it’s not the Bible. If it was, we’d be stoning people for breaking the Sabbath.”

A paraphrase is not a quote and should not be placed in quotation marks and attributed to people. It's slanderous, deceitful and does not display the moral superiority that you claim to have.

436 zmdavid  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:05:36pm

re: #433 Salamantis

Umm...that wasn't the US Constitution; that was the declaration of Independence...

I don't think Sage said it was. Are you throwing the Declaration under the bus?

437 Tigger2005  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:05:36pm

re: #400 Kreuzueber Halbmond

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For that reason alone, people of other faiths have been afforded freedom of worship here." - Patrick Henry.

This quote is quite likely a myth.

Really, we have the Internet these days. Would people PLEASE do some research. I can't tell you how much bunk I've sent back to people with a plaintive plea to spend 5 minutes checking things out at snopes.com.

438 tokyobk  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:05:37pm

re: #431 sparrowlake

Six.
On the seventh day God (if there is one) rested.

Yes, sorry. I stand corrected about the number; shesh is indeed six.
I stand by the part that it is literal since it only appears in the Torah to mean sundown-to-sundown.

439 loflyer  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:05:50pm

Give us a new thread Charles, we are beating a dead horse....

440 BBev  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:05:54pm

re: #416 yochanan

AT THIS POINT I DON'T UNDERSTAND IT. but i will be respectful as this is not my house.

Agreed

441 freedombilly  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:06:05pm

Happy Birthday, evolution!

442 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:06:19pm

re: #306 grumpy old codger

In order to produce the one "perfect Specimen" they had to abort 5-6 fetuses. Need I go one?

But just think how many women in how many generations of that family will not have to suffer painful deaths now.

443 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:06:19pm
444 Thanos  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:06:31pm

re: #432 ASU86PE

The "divine" Right of Kings was a fourteen century concoction; most notably Louis XIV.

Biblical logic is evident and there's really no dispute. It's history not me.

Yes ,there were elections prior to Christianity, but this was about Darwin and his lost thoughts. It just got tangential on to this issue.

My point is that our country was formed from a smorgasboard best of ideas from history, religion, philiosophy, reason, and science. Judeo-Christian-Greco-Roman -- to hold one above the others diminishes our country.

445 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:06:36pm

re: #418 blue_like_jazz

and i expect an apology.


No, you appear to be a deceitful liar I have proved that the quote does not appear in the article. you're insane to contend otherwise.

446 Thanos  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:07:18pm

KT: I stand corrected.

447 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:07:53pm

re: #428 Thanos

It's more lying bullshit/out of context crap from "morally superior" creationists.

448 medaura18586  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:08:14pm

re: #386 Killgore Trout

"Who's to say Hitler wasn't right" isn't in that article you linked to. Is this how you display your superior moral values; by fabricating quotes? Once again I ask you the provide a link to the "quote" you attributed to Dawkins. It doesn't exist, now does it?

Your friend has been blogging about this.

The quote does seem to exist, but if you read it in context, it is not at all controversial. Dawkins was talking about morality, and the challenge in reaching universal moral conclusions without relying on divine authority. "Who's to say Hitler wasn't right" was a rhetorical question Dawkins raised to represent the essence of the challenge. It was neither meant as a means of sympathizing with Hitler in any way, shape, or form, nor a retreat into moral relativism.

Idiots will choose to interpret it as they see fit, of course.

449 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:08:28pm

re: #445 Killgore Trout

No, you appear to be a deceitful liar I have proved that the quote does not appear in the article. you're insane to contend otherwise.


I pointed it out to him too... a few posts before yours. The actual quote in the article doesn't ask the question in the same tone or tenor that blue_like_jazz was trying to make it sound like.

He certainly owes YOU an apology.

Walter in Golden, Co.

450 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:08:31pm

re: #313 yochanan

I don't see the benifit of this subject. nothing positive.

Yeah, we get it, yoch; the first half-dozen times you said it on this thread were enough...;~)

451 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:09:28pm

re: #434 SpaceJesus

Our laws and judicial system are based on Roman, Greek, and Pagan German legal traditions which predate Christianity by hundreds of years.


You have a point. It was all thrown in there. But the Founders did not predate Christianity. It is a historical fact by their writings that there was a significant Christian influence.

452 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:09:59pm

re: #448 medaura18586

Your friend has been blogging about this.

The quote does seem to exist, but if you read it in context, it is not at all controversial. Dawkins was talking about morality, and the challenge in reaching universal moral conclusions without relying on divine authority. "Who's to say Hitler wasn't right" was a rhetorical question Dawkins raised to represent the essence of the challenge. It was neither meant as a means of sympathizing with Hitler in any way, shape, or form, nor a retreat into moral relativism.

Idiots will choose to interpret it as they see fit, of course.


No it doesn't exist... read the article... read the quote... read Killgore's post above where he has posted the complete reply.

Walter in Golden, Co.

453 MandyManners  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:10:11pm

Weren't a few founders Deists?

454 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:10:19pm
455 DesertSage  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:10:26pm

re: #433 Salamantis

Umm...that wasn't the US Constitution; that was the declaration of Independence...

Sharmuta said: The Churches didn't write either the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution. Men who understood we needed a separation between government and the clergy did.

I responded to Sharmuta with this: The same men who said that we were Endowed By Our Creator?

And you come back and say that it wasn't in the constitution. Did I say that it was? What's your point?

456 Boogberg  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:10:51pm

re: #407 buzzsawmonkey

(threads on this topic seem to bring out a lot of irregulars).

...And I'm one of 'em. Simple, really. It's good to see some honest-to-goodness debate without accusations of "troll" or "moby" or whatever.

It's refreshing.

457 Josephine  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:10:57pm

re: #198 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

I hear you've made the Top 10 List of Metrosexuals for Our Time. Please give us some fashion advice before you go.

458 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:11:22pm
459 wolfie  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:11:33pm

re: #307 Tigger2005

Without attacking Christianity, I point to the historical fact that, in the thousand years that the Church held absolute power in the Western world, there was no democracy to be found anywhere. Yet just around 200-300 years after the Reformation, the Renaissance, and the Enlightenment, the greatest democratic civilization in human history was born.

I like a lot of your post, and especially your mention of English law, which many overlook!

But the paragraph I have quoted is way off base.

The Church never held absolute power in the Western world.
Not even close.
I cannot begin to correct your comic-book view of medieval history here, but I will say this much. Many of the peculiar institutions of the West owe much to the fact that the civil and religious authorities were in a state of tension for centuries. Sometimes they fought....(Magna Carta, e.g., would not have been written w/o the Church.)... sometimes they cooperated. But there were "two swords," so to speak.
This precarious separation between the spiritual and political powers is utterly bizarre in human history, BTW.
(The tendency in early modern Europe was to resolve the conflict by placing religion under the control of the state, but that brings us to a different era.)

460 blue_like_jazz  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:11:39pm

re: #445 Killgore Trout

i will apologize, then, for paraphrasing when i thought i was quoting. it was a mistake on my part in the first post i made concerning dawkins. it was a careless mistake.

i never claimed to have any sort of moral superiority. please go back and show me where i claimed or intimated such a thing.

461 Luigi  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:11:46pm

Don't blame God for people denying the centrality of genetics to the study of life. God placed genetic science as the central issue to life on earth -- within the same statement as creation:


Genesis Chapter 1[11] And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

[12] And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

462 irish rose  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:12:00pm

re: #447 Killgore Trout

It's more lying bullshit/out of context crap from "morally superior" creationists.


Killgore, ya know I luv ya.

You have a good point, but you might want to consider turning the overt hostility down a notch. It really doesn't advance the discussion, IMO.

463 freedombilly  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:12:09pm

re: #411 mama winger

Does anyone (other than Charles) have more posts than Mama Winger?

Sorry to go off thread but I was just wondering.

464 Steve  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:12:13pm

"If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not have been formed by numerous, successive slight modifications my theory would break down." Charles Darwin from 'Origin of Species'

465 MandyManners  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:12:40pm

re: #458 buzzsawmonkey

Yes; the Declaration of Independence was a cease-and-Deist letter to King George.

Oh, you're terrible.

466 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:12:56pm

re: #453 MandyManners

Weren't a few founders Deists?


Yes

467 Thanos  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:13:00pm

re: #434 SpaceJesus

Our laws and judicial system are based on Roman, Greek, and Pagan German legal traditions which predate Christianity by hundreds of years.

Got a link for that? Especially the "Pagan German" part? Remember, several lawyers are reading this, so I expect they will reply with piles of Blackstone and others.
[Link: www.blackstoneinstitute.org...]

468 EC Marm  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:13:31pm

re: #465 MandyManners

Oh, you're terrible.


Haven't you groan accustomed to his puns and wordplay?

469 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:13:39pm

re: #322 yochanan

i for one feel the pain coming from MAMA WINGER and it makes me sad

People do not have a right not to be offended or pained. Other people can say what they want, but it is the person who hears it who decides whether or not they will gratuitously cede it power over them by allowing it to control their emotions, or whether they will retain control of them for themselves. People can control their own responses to things, if they try with sufficient will.

470 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:13:39pm
471 Mongerel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:14:33pm

As sort of a lurker and part-time info-sponge, I must express my thanks that LGF is exploring this topic. Tonight it's history, prompted by the core of this most current controversy: the Wedge, as diabolical a plan as I can imagine.

What I take away is not bitterness at those who differ, but fascination and profound appreciation for my remarkable fellow human beings.

And what a treasure it is to have this place, where we can have it out and yet be among friends, who may knock us in the dirt on one topic, and carry us on their backs in the next.

So Thank you, Charles, and with affection to Lizardia,

472 SpaceJesus  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:14:47pm

re: #451 opnion

You have a point. It was all thrown in there. But the Founders did not predate Christianity. It is a historical fact by their writings that there was a significant Christian influence.


Of course most of them were Protestant (although many including Jefferson, were deists), I would not argue that. I just don't see anything in the Bible that creates a framework for any part of American government. This is why I take issue with people saying America was founded on the Christian Bible.

473 medaura18586  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:15:04pm

re: #452 Walter L. Newton

Well I was a bit shocked that Dawkins would be as untactful as to give idiots ammunition by expressing his thoughts that way. I think Killgore is contending that the original 'quote' this particular idiot attributed to Dawkins had been a mere paraphrasing of what he actually said, which, like I said, given the context, does not hold at all the meaning anti-evolutionary crusaders try to attribute it.

To me it's even more interesting to point out who was blogging about this. I have been reproached by Killgore in the past for calling that blogger insane to her face.

474 LeePro  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:15:04pm

re: #433 Salamantis

Umm...that wasn't the US Constitution; that was the declaration of Independence...

FYI, Sage did not say that was in the Constitution!

475 Josephine  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:15:05pm

re: #208 ggt

It's amazing but I think it might qualify as eugenics for folks who believe life begins at conception. (The fertilized eggs with the breast cancer gene were discarded.)

It's a delicate subject.

476 MandyManners  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:15:06pm

re: #463 freedombilly

I have 45,429.

477 MandyManners  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:15:29pm

re: #468 EC Marm

Haven't you groan accustomed to his puns and wordplay?

LOL!

478 BBev  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:15:38pm

re: #463 freedombilly

Does anyone (other than Charles) have more posts than Mama Winger?

Sorry to go off thread but I was just wondering.

Just to let you know. that was the first ding down I have ever done.

479 yochanan  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:15:43pm

re: #469 Salamantis

BULL

480 Cartman  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:16:07pm

Yeah, that Markos is such an idiot!
.
.
.
/oooops...wrong thread

481 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:16:11pm
482 MandyManners  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:16:15pm

re: #470 buzzsawmonkey

I figure these threads need all the humor they can get.

You got that right.

483 ASU86PE  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:16:23pm

re: #444 Thanos

We hold one above the others because the others were violent and disregarded life. Christianity worked to end suffering and encourage innovation. Without the simple dedication of a monk, modern biology might not still exist. And then where would Darwin be?

484 ArcherB  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:16:34pm

re: #287 irish rose

Remember mama, it's only a discussion and just words on the screen. I know that it doesn't feel like that to you, but it is the truth.

I know that you hate some of what you are reading here and are personally offended by it. I see some things that I don't like on these discussion threads as well... but you can't control what people say or think. You can only control your own reaction to it.

Make yourself a nice cup of tea and visit some of the other threads for a while, it's nice to have you back.

And whatever you do, don't call someone a world class jerk for speaking their mind and defending their beliefs to question authority.

Sorry, had to get that off my chest.

485 freedombilly  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:16:36pm

re: #476 MandyManners

I have 45,429.

And I always enjoy your comments! I should have checked your number before I asked such a question.

486 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:17:34pm

re: #453 MandyManners

Weren't a few founders Deists?

Yes.

487 SpaceJesus  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:17:43pm

re: #467 Thanos

Got a link for that? Especially the "Pagan German" part? Remember, several lawyers are reading this, so I expect they will reply with piles of Blackstone and others.
[Link: www.blackstoneinstitute.org...]

Excellent, I'm in law school right now at the University of New Mexico with dual undergraduate majors in early American History and German. I know for a fact that the 12 person trial by a jury of your peers orginated in Germanic customs and was brought to England with the Saxon and Engel colonization of the island.

488 MandyManners  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:18:07pm

Gotta' go capture my little monkey. bbl

489 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:18:30pm

re: #448 medaura18586

Yes, it's a paraphrase, out of context, and note a quote.

490 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:18:45pm

re: #481 taxfreekiller

From the looks of that beard, old Darwin could have done one hell of a study of bugs just by combing it out each morning to see how things had evolved overnight.


There you go. You can't debate the subject, so you attack the man... next thing you know, you'll be calling Dinnerjacket short.

/:)

Walter in Golden, Co.

491 Tigger2005  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:18:56pm

I'm sorry some folks have a problem with the debates over this topic. IMO, free, freewheeling, vigorous, testy debate is one of the things that makes this country great and strong! We are able to argue and disagree and persuade (or not) without killing each other. There was a time when more people "got" that. How else did a motley collection of transplanted Europeans--who back in the old country spent hundreds of years busily slaughtering each other for any reason (if they didn't have one they'd make one up), former African slaves--who back in the old country fought with each other for belonging to different tribes, Native Americans--who back in the old days fought and tortured each other at the stake before their land was pulled out from under them, and a smattering of Asians manage, in a matter of months, to turn the United States into the most efficient military machine on the face of the Earth?

492 zmdavid  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:19:20pm

An aside:
Please don't anyone try to live your lives based on a current understanding of evolution. The men in the FLDS compound are living according to how I would currently interpret evolution, if I wanted to maximize my own fitness.

They are having loads of offspring, almost all of them will probably live to reproduce and have loads more offspring. This means, according to evolution, they are fitter than the rest of us. Especially me, as I have no children.

Never confuse evolution with morality.

493 wolfie  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:19:59pm

re: #326 Sharmuta

IT'S A HISTORICAL FACT! Facts upset you, do they? Our Founders felt the need to have a separation between Church and State. Americans cherish this.

You happen to be wrong.
But I fear the actual FACTS would upset you.

494 freedombilly  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:19:59pm

re: #478 BBev

I understand why. Sure was a controversial comment.

495 Killian Bundy  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:20:02pm

re: #487 SpaceJesus

I'm in law school right now

/what year?

496 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:20:13pm

re: #473 medaura18586

Generally speaking I'm not in the habit of defending Dawkins or Hitch for the stupid things they say but the critics need to keep their quotes accurate.

497 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:21:09pm
498 medaura18586  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:21:17pm

re: #486 Sharmuta

Yes.

Not just merely a few, in a statistical sense, but especially the intellectual poles on the American Revolution, who exerted the greatest influence in shaping the Constitution and the early American institutions; namely: Jefferson, Franklin, and Adams (not to mention Paine).

Their positions are next to impossible to misinterpret if you read their own quotes on the subject.

499 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:21:26pm

On a positive note, spree killer Nicholas Sheley has been apprehended after only 10 days of infamy. The toll includes 8 people dead, but he won't have much opportunity to kill again, presumably before his execution.

Another positive note, The "Breckenridge" sex predator cult has been exposed, and while one poor girl (at least) is missing, two evil people and likely more are about to be taken out of circulation forever.

It's not about creation (aka "intelligent design") or about islamic extremism, but that doesn't make this less than importantly positive news.

500 LeePro  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:21:37pm

re: #468 EC Marm

Haven't you groan accustomed to his puns and wordplay?

Stop baiting me. I shall not fall for it!

~ the grammar/spelling bitch

501 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:21:40pm

re: #460 blue_like_jazz

i will apologize, then


That's more than I would have asked for or expected. Apology accepted.

502 Mr Pancakes  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:21:43pm

re: #299 opnion

Dear lady, they are actually White Castle Hamburgers.
The are really small & delicious. They are really greasy and the primary cause of death in the Midwest, but sooooo good!
I will get you an order of onion rings to go with them.
A party for your mouth!

White Castles are good, although I admit I've only had the boxed version that you can buy out here in the store's frozen section. We don't have White Castle out here in CA, but we have In N' Out Burger. The best fast food burger ever made.

503 rightwingva  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:21:51pm

re: #296 yochanan

Interesting... I am going to have research what William F. Buckley had to say :-). I LOVED "Atlas Shrugged", one of the greatest pro-capitalism novels ever. I was actually going to join an Objectivist group, but upon researching it, there was a kind of militant atheism at its core (and as one of those Bible-thumpin Christians, well that just doesn't work for me). Anyway, one of the weirdest quotes I have ever seen was (here goes a totally weird off off off topic... evolution -> Ayn Rand -> Satanism) Anton LaVey said of his new Church of Satan...

"just Ayn Rand's philosophy with ceremony and ritual added"
504 Tigger2005  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:22:13pm

Well, I'm not really that stupid and misinformed...I definitely didn't get my history from a comic book. Yes, my comment was not accurate. Nevertheless the Church did wield immense power, and I don't see any indication that it ever tried to use that power to persuade secular rulers to institute democratic reforms.

re: #459 wolfie

I like a lot of your post, and especially your mention of English law, which many overlook!

But the paragraph I have quoted is way off base.

The Church never held absolute power in the Western world.
Not even close.
I cannot begin to correct your comic-book view of medieval history here, but I will say this much. Many of the peculiar institutions of the West owe much to the fact that the civil and religious authorities were in a state of tension for centuries. Sometimes they fought....(Magna Carta, e.g., would not have been written w/o the Church.)... sometimes they cooperated. But there were "two swords," so to speak.
This precarious separation between the spiritual and political powers is utterly bizarre in human history, BTW.
(The tendency in early modern Europe was to resolve the conflict by placing religion under the control of the state, but that brings us to a different era.)

505 Thanos  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:22:15pm

re: #483 ASU86PE

We hold one above the others because the others were violent and disregarded life. Christianity worked to end suffering and encourage innovation. Without the simple dedication of a monk, modern biology might not still exist. And then where would Darwin be?

And without Aristotle science might not exist, where would we all be?

You hold one above the other, I use reason to keep them at a level together. It's a key concept in the constitution, there are particular things like Ammendment 1 and Article VI specifically emplaced to ensure that we never re-establish church sanctioned rulership. The Christian Reconstructionist movement hates Article VI and would pull it out in a second if they could.

506 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:22:17pm

re: #493 wolfie

You happen to be wrong.
But I fear the actual FACTS would upset you.

Our Founders wanted a theocracy? Our Founders were not inspired by more than the Bible?

507 irish rose  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:22:28pm

re: #484 ArcherB

And whatever you do, don't call someone a world class jerk for speaking their mind and defending their beliefs to question authority.

Sorry, had to get that off my chest.

I didn't call you a world-class jerk... my lovely daughter did.
A casual, dispassionate observation by someone who is not otherwise invested in this topic.

Did I mention that she's also a readhead?

508 Boogberg  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:22:36pm

re: #476 MandyManners

I have 45,429.

That's frickin' incredible. Charles' database isn't likely to disappear but, do you keep a record of your comments? Holy crap! :D

509 nyc redneck  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:22:42pm

re: #481 taxfreekiller

From the looks of that beard, old Darwin could have done one hell of a study of bugs just by combing it out each morning to see how things had evolved overnight.

LOL,
that may very well be what first sparked his interest in evolution.

510 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:23:15pm

Here I am on an Id thread, just trying to point out to Mama Wiger that the White Sox swept the Cubs over the weekend. By the way ,MAndy & Wolfie,I never mentioned it until now, wink, wink.

511 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:23:38pm

re: #339 ASU86PE

Actually the Declaration of Independence and The U.S. Constitution depend on biblical logic.

Try reading this:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

512 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:23:41pm

re: #508 Boogberg

All you have to do is click an avatar.

513 sparrowlake  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:23:45pm

re: #438 tokyobk

Yes, sorry. I stand corrected about the number; shesh is indeed six.
I stand by the part that it is literal since it only appears in the Torah to mean sundown-to-sundown.

Actually, if you want to be very literal - parshat b'raysheet uses the terminology "va'y'hee erev, va'y'hee boker", which literally means "there was evening and there was morning".
The Torah therefore does not literally account for the part of the day between morning and evening.
I'm no biblical scholar but this does seem to put the kaibosh to your literalist argument.

514 Dan G.  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:23:50pm

Where are the Discovery Institute Creationist Kook Supporters tonight? The argument is decidedly not on the same track as previous ones.

515 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:23:50pm

re: #437 Tigger2005

This quote is quite likely a myth.

Really, we have the Internet these days. Would people PLEASE do some research. I can't tell you how much bunk I've sent back to people with a plaintive plea to spend 5 minutes checking things out at snopes.com.

I withdraw the quote. I'll quote the dollar bill instead - "In God We Trust".

516 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:24:27pm

re: #514 Dan G.

Where are the Discovery Institute Creationist Kook Supporters tonight? The argument is decidedly not on the same track as previous ones.

Missing the cut and paste, are you? ;)

517 Dan G.  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:24:43pm

re: #515 Kreuzueber Halbmond

When was that added to the dollar, remind me?

518 Intrepid  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:25:01pm

And in other news....

Domestic dispute - Self -vs- Self!

Film (NOT) at 11!

519 medaura18586  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:25:14pm

re: #496 Killgore Trout

I find Dawkins to be an irritable douche-bag when his speaks about religion, though his written thoughts (post-editing) are not without merit. He is no such thing as a Eugenicist or a Neo-Nazi though, and the more creationist idiots misquote him, the more they inflate any potentially legitimate criticism of Dawkins into a grotesque straw man.

520 Dan G.  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:25:21pm

re: #516 Sharmuta

Not missing it so much as wanting to stealthly call them DICKS.

521 lostlakehiker  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:25:37pm

re: #178 theparson

I haven't had much to say on this but I have read most of the posts and feel like weighing in.
First to my Christian brethren. It saddens me to read the angry, spiteful words that come from so many who profess to be Christians. I don't understand why some of you insist on throwing pejoratives at Charles for posting on his own blog things of interest to him. It isn't as though he has invaded your territory or as though you have stumbled upon this blog. You made the choice to log on to and participate in this blog knowing full well it belongs to him.
You feel as though your faith is challenged. So what! That is part of the deal. If you see yourself as a martyr why not act like one. Why not suffer in silence and faithful dignity. Where do we find in the Bible that martyr's fight back? Doesn't the Word tell us that "a soft word turns away wrath"? Doesn't that same word tell us to "Count it all joy..."? How many of your have actually prayed for those who "spitefully use you"? Do you pray that God will give you wisdom and understanding with divinely inspired words to express, in a loving meaningful way, your faith?
You reject this admonition? You feel you have the right, no... duty to correct those who believe differently or challenge your beliefs? Are you indignant at their audacious insistence to defy your faith!? If so, I do not question your Christianity but I do question your Christian maturity.

And to my friends on the other side. I admit an ignorance concerning this subject. I am not a scientist. I confess to a belief in the Biblical account of creation. I also admit that, though I believe God created all things, I truly don't know how He accomplished that. While it saddens me that many scientists confess a disbelief in God, I am glad that scientists are exploring different ideas and using their (God given) knowledge to make life better in so many ways. I would like to offer my apologies to you on behalf of my Christian brethren for angry and hateful words. It is true that I sometimes read words that are hurtful but, I made the choice to believe the way I do.
I doubt more than 5 people will read this but regardless of that, I feel better!
theparson

Oh ye of little faith in your own eloquence! I betcha you had more than five readers.

I didn't make the choice to believe the way I do when it comes to evolution. As far as I can see, the evidence compels belief. Beliefs are like chess moves, in a way. Some of them are forced. Now chess is hard, and a player may not recognize that a move is forced. Happens to me all too often, and then I lose. And science is hard too, and it's possible to go wrong here as well. But for better or worse, with whatever power of reason I command, that's where reason takes me: evolution is the explanation that best fits the fossil and DNA record. Nothing else begins to make any sense.

As to the reaction of fundamentalist Christians to these threads, yes, I think you're wrong. But spiteful, angry and hateful? No. There's precious little of that in these threads. Hurt and feeling betrayed, perhaps.

Please don't feel despised, betrayed, or rejected. Your ideas on this one topic, well, yes, we reject those ideas. That doesn't mean we're against you on the second amendment, freedom of religion, taxes, or any other topic. You'd be surprised how deep and solid the loyalty to these common values runs in the darwin wing of the lizard army.

We have many common goals and we can work jointly toward all those goals, while agreeing to disagree on this point, and even to fight it out in the court of public opinion and in courts of law.

522 Salem  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:25:47pm

re: #88 DesertSage

Salem, you've down dinged me dozens of times (and up dinged me once)....and I still like you. Don't take it personally.

I don't care who down-dings me. But people who down-ding the 150th anniversary of a scientific theory that is still going strong are out to freaking lunch.

523 tokyobk  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:25:53pm

re: #454 buzzsawmonkey

Seeing as how the "literal meaning" of the Torah has been interpreted by various sages over thousands of years to mean some things quite different from the literal text, I cannot see why this one particular passage should be only interpreted "literally"--particularly since the opening lines of Bereshit are often taken to mean that Creation is an ongoing enterprise.

My point is that word is not used flexibly as far as I can tell in any other part of the Torah.

Though, in the first creation story, since there are two in Genesis, the sun is created on the 4th day, so if it were to be x years, that would date the sun to four x years.

Then, if the sun was created on the fourth day, would the fifth and six and Shabbat be regular days of 24 hours since now there was a sun?

My point here and elsewhere is that humans should not have to make science fit into any story, whatever its claims to holiness. As literature, historical impression, moral guide, of course there is much to love of the Torah and the Christian Testament.

524 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:25:53pm

re: #437 Tigger2005

This quote is quite likely a myth.

Really, we have the Internet these days. Would people PLEASE do some research. I can't tell you how much bunk I've sent back to people with a plaintive plea to spend 5 minutes checking things out at snopes.com.

Thank you for that link- I bookmarked it. :)

525 yochanan  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:26:06pm

re: #503 rightwingva

W.F. BUCKLEY wrote a novel 'getting it right' which was about both the john birch society and ayn rand. both were put down.

526 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:26:14pm

re: #462 irish rose

Killgore, ya know I luv ya.

You have a good point, but you might want to consider turning the overt hostility down a notch. It really doesn't advance the discussion, IMO.

I can fully appreciate Killgore toning it up a notch there. I spent quite some time dealing with some very thick headed YECs who did not want to learn nor understand a blasted thing. It gets very tiresome and irksome to have to answer the same bloody questions over and over and over and over and over (repeat as necessary).

I really don't give two craps if someone wants to believe it [YEC] privately, but it has no place what-so-ever in a science classroom. It's also an insult to God, IMHO, to claim YEC as science.

527 Steve  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:26:16pm

wonderful discussion tonight but dinner is almost ready. So I will leave for now but hope to be back later

After dinner I will take the Mrs. Steve out for dessert. Baileys in a warm brandy snifter and cheesecake>

528 SpaceJesus  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:26:16pm

re: #497 taxfreekiller

Yo, Spacejuice,,

how much is pinon coffee per lbs this year in New Mexico?


ha. one of the attorneys at the office I'm interning at just got a shipment of them delivered to him. I had to go pick it up from the post office last week and it was so hot that day my car still smells like pinon coffee beans. I suppose I could ask him?

529 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:26:34pm

re: #508 Boogberg

If you click on anyone's avatar, you'll pull up their pertinent info, including number of comments and spinoffs.

530 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:26:51pm
531 jc59  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:27:07pm

Just couldn't resist reposting this. It really is a great read.

"During the past century, Western intellectuals have been more than willing to trace European imperialism to Christian origins, but they have been entirely unwilling to recognize that Christianity made any contribution (other than intolerance) to the Western capacity to dominate. Rather, the West is said to have surged ahead precisely as it overcame religious barriers to progress, especially those impeding science. Nonsense. The success of the West, including the rise of science, rested entirely on religious foundations, and the people who brought it about were devout Christians."

Rodney Stark
The Victory of Reason
How Christianity Led to Freedom, Capitalism, and Western Success

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

532 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:27:39pm

re: #515 Kreuzueber Halbmond

"In God We Trust".


I have no problem with that on our money. I have no problem with "under god" in our pledge of allegiance. I have no problem with the ten Commandments in courthouses and I have no problem with sitting through grace at someone's dinner table but keep your fucking religion out of my science!

533 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:27:57pm

re: #341 blue_like_jazz

sorry to disappoint

Let's place it in context:

I asked an obvious question: “As we speak of this shifting zeitgeist, how are we to determine who’s right? If we do not acknowledge some sort of external [standard], what is to prevent us from saying that the Muslim [extremists] aren’t right?”

“Yes, absolutely fascinating.” His response was immediate. “What’s to prevent us from saying Hitler wasn’t right? I mean, that is a genuinely difficult question. But whatever [defines morality], it’s not the Bible. If it was, we’d be stoning people for breaking the Sabbath.”

534 ploome hineni[deleted]  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:28:21pm
535 Dan G.  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:28:25pm

re: #532 Killgore Trout

So you are OK with religion in politics?

536 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:28:49pm

re: #502 Mr Pancakes

White Castles are good, although I admit I've only had the boxed version that you can buy out here in the store's frozen section. We don't have White Castle out here in CA, but we have In N' Out Burger. The best fast food burger ever made.

I gotta tell ya, the frozen Sliders just don't get it. You miss the true grease experience.

537 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:29:00pm

re: #517 Dan G.

On the dollar I am not sure, but on coinage I think after the civil war.

538 mobaby  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:29:11pm

re: #240 Sharmuta

So I should respect neo-nazis and cair?

You have to pick your battles - if you think fundy Christians and fundy Mennonites are as big a threat as neo-nazis and cair, then go for it. And you also might want to consider all the threatening windmills out there.

539 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:29:26pm
540 rightwingva  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:30:21pm

re: #525 yochanan

Thanks, you saved me from more freaking Googling :-). Atlas Shrugged was tremendous, but I felt very sorry for Ayn Rand in a television interview I saw. She seemed deeply sad, very distant... at least my memory of it.

541 tokyobk  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:30:42pm

re: #513 sparrowlake

Actually, if you want to be very literal - parshat b'raysheet uses the terminology "va'y'hee erev, va'y'hee boker", which literally means "there was evening and there was morning".
The Torah therefore does not literally account for the part of the day between morning and evening.
I'm no biblical scholar but this does seem to put the kaibosh to your literalist argument.

An evening and morning is an even more literal representation of a day, no? Its even harder to try to interperet as, say, a million years, no?

And the reference to God's creation as b'sheshet yamim asah anomoi et ha shamaim v'et ha aretz uses the term yom. I have not found the use of the word yom to mean anything else.

My real point is again that the creation myths of any religion have no place as references in the process of scientific discovery.

542 Boogberg  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:31:07pm

re: #512 Sharmuta

Yeah, I know. It's just that I never had a reason to. 45k comments? That's fucking unreal.

543 Dan G.  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:31:07pm

re: #538 mobaby

Fundie mennonites aren't trying to undermine the Constitution, they mind their own business.

544 Intrepid  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:31:14pm

re: #178 theparson

Well said, sir. That's why I sit by and wait for a moment to interject some levity. I've learned my lesson, and learned it well. Much more of a "daughter of thunder" than I'd like to be...

545 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:31:18pm

re: #535 Dan G.

I don't like identity politics. Christians vote for Christians, blacks vote for blacks, women vote for women. I choose candidates based on policy and record, others choose otherwise. I don't like it but I won't stop them.

546 wolfie  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:31:29pm

re: #384 Thanos

The constitution in particular veers away from religion specifically because they did not want a wrangle between proponents of various state sanctioned religions established by state constitutions.

Good grief! Thank you, Thanos!
"Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion.

The whole point is that those whacko Virginians couldn't force the whole union to disestablish churches, nor could those goofy New Englanders establish their church elsewhere through use of the federal government.

547 nyc redneck  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:31:45pm

re: #534 ploome hineni

................have I missed anything?

no, lol

548 Mr Pancakes  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:32:06pm

re: #536 opnion

I gotta tell ya, the frozen Sliders just don't get it. You miss the true grease experience.

Oh...... I'm sure of that..... they don't even have the pickles in the boxed frozen version. I still like em'.

549 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:32:10pm

re: #537 Kreuzueber Halbmond

On the dollar I am not sure, but on coinage I think after the civil war.

FYI

"Another Act of Congress passed on March 3, 1865. It allowed the Mint Director, with the Secretary's approval, to place the motto on all gold and silver coins that "shall admit the inscription thereon." Under the Act, the motto was placed on the gold double-eagle coin, the gold eagle coin, and the gold half-eagle coin. It was also placed on the silver dollar coin, the half-dollar coin and the quarter-dollar coin, and on the nickel three-cent coin beginning in 1866. Later, Congress passed the Coinage Act of February 12, 1873. It also said that the Secretary "may cause the motto IN GOD WE TRUST to be inscribed on such coins as shall admit of such motto.""

Walter in Golden, Co.

550 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:32:10pm

re: #538 mobaby

So now Charles is Don Quixote and the rest of us who agree we don't like these groups are Sancho Panza?

551 irish rose  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:32:15pm

re: #544 Intrepid

Much more of a "daughter of thunder" than I'd like to be...

You must be an Irish girl.

552 Cartman  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:32:50pm

re: #536 opnion

I gotta tell ya, the frozen Sliders just don't get it. You miss the true grease experience.

My lower digestive tract don't miss that "experience" one bit. ;)

553 yochanan  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:33:07pm

re: #543 Dan G.

mennites just want to be left alone.

554 littleO  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:33:13pm

Sal: from the creationist in texas post:
"high, but imperfect copying fidelity" as a discription of Dna properties. Isn't that like saying that there is some kind of 'intelligence in DNA?
Of course, we both know that can't happen. So, that is where the scientific proposal for intelligent design came from.
Oh, by the way, you are by far the authority on the subject. I feel that you need to step outside the lab sometimes and look at the building.
At least, though, you don't argue that some evangelical preacher sprouted the idea of ID from the pulpit one Sunday morning.

555 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:33:25pm

re: #349 A Kiwi Infidel

Read this, then,

It seems there is an awfully large number of references to the Almight God.

Now theres a fact.

You want to prove otherwise? You will fail. You will fail because your founding fathers always assumed that the Worship of the Almighty God was a given with the home, the family, the workplace, the Church, the halls of power, the benches of justice.

It was a bad assumption, sadly.

Treaty of Tripoli, 1796
[Link: www.stephenjaygould.org...]

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

556 yehoshua  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:33:27pm

re: #546 wolfie

Mentioning God or Creationism in school does not establish any religion. Belief in evolution is as much of a religion as belief in God.

557 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:33:47pm

re: #532 Killgore Trout

I have no problem with that on our money. I have no problem with "under god" in our pledge of allegiance. I have no problem with the ten Commandments in courthouses and I have no problem with sitting through grace at someone's dinner table but keep your fucking religion out of my science!

Only if you keep your fucking science out of my religion!

558 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:33:48pm

Good night dear lizards,.Don't kill each other. There is more agreement than not.

559 Dan G.  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:33:49pm

re: #545 Killgore Trout

Not sure I follow. When I said politics, I'm talking about the political sphere (i.e. laws, courts, etc...). In particular, why wouldn't you mind having the 10 commandments in courts? That is explicit endorsement of a specific religion.

560 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:33:59pm

re: #553 yochanan

mennites just want to be left alone.

I think most Americans want to be left alone, and that includes others not indoctrinating our kids.

561 Cognito  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:34:18pm

re: #206 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

Jeez, they let anybody in here.

Come now, Mahmoud. Surely you agree that, as some have asserted, that fundamental Christians pose a grave threat to our society?

Just the other day a Lutheran threatened to cut off a congregant's hands for stealing an extra helping of green bean casserole. And if I understand correctly, in Texas the Baptists are now requiring that their wives obtain written permission from the local Vice Police before delivering meals to the home-bound.

I'm surprised it's taken us this long to see the dark thunderhead of Christian fundamentalism gathering on the global horizon.

562 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:34:27pm

re: #548 Mr Pancakes

Oh...... I'm sure of that..... they don't even have the pickles in the boxed frozen version. I still like em'.

Yup

563 nyc redneck  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:34:40pm

re: #536 opnion

I gotta tell ya, the frozen Sliders just don't get it. You miss the true grease experience.

looks like the dems in denver will be missing it to.
:(

564 Dan G.  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:34:48pm

re: #553 yochanan

Which is why that poster's comparision was complete shite.

565 experiencedtraveller  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:35:07pm

re: #534 ploome hineni

................have I missed anything?



WWI songs and some small talk about ...ah..... you know...

566 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:35:12pm

re: #359 A Kiwi Infidel

I just googled "Bible's influence on American Constitution" and got 255,000 hits.

Ahh...the google fallacy...

567 theparson  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:35:53pm

Well, I go on duty at 0600 tomorrow so I'm off to bed. Goodnight my Lizard brothers and sisters.

Goodnight Mrs Callabash... where ever you are!

PS. Does anybody know where Walter is from? :)

568 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:35:55pm

re: #566 Salamantis

Ahh...the google fallacy...

One of our favorites! ;)

569 Dan G.  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:36:03pm

re: #557 Kreuzueber Halbmond

What science group is trying to use the legislature to force Darwin's ideas to be included in each sermon on genesis? Which science group is rewriting bibles?

570 Opilio  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:36:23pm

re: #537 Kreuzueber Halbmond

On the dollar I am not sure, but on coinage I think after the civil war.

Paper currency: 1957.
Coinage: On and off since 1864

571 Luigi  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:36:37pm

The Book of Provebs has never been debunked. My understanding is that Proverbs A To Z used to be taught to public school kids a long long time ago.


Apply your heart to instruction, and your ears to words of knowledge.

Blessings are on the head of the righteous, but violence covers the mouth of the wicked.

Children's children are the crowns of old men.

Death and life are in the power of the tongue, and those who love it will eat its fruit.

Even a fool is counted wise when he holds his peace.

Faithful are the wounds of a friend, but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.

Good understanding gains favor, but the way of the unfaithful is hard.

Harsh correction is for him who forsakes the way.

Idle chatter leads only to poverty, but in all labor there is profit.

Judgments are prepared for scoffers, and beatings for the backs of fools.

Keep your heart with all diligence, for out of it spring the issues of life.

Length of days is in the right hand, and in the left hand riches and honor, of whom finds wisdom.

Mercy and truth preserve the king, and by lovingkindness he upholds his throne.

No grave trouble will overtake the righteous, but the wicked shall be filled with evil.

Open rebuke is better than love carefully concealed.

Pleasant words are like a honeycomb, sweetness to the soul and health to the bones.

Quick-tempered men do foolish things.

Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people.

Scoffers ensnare a city, but wise men turn away wrath.

Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it.

Understanding is a fountain of life to him who has it, but the correction of fools is folly.

Violent men entice their neighbors, and lead them in a way that is not good.

Wise men store up knowledge, but the mouth of a fool invites ruin.

X-cellent speech is not becoming to a fool, much less lying lips to a prince.

You who are simple, gain prudence; you who are foolish, gain understanding.

Zeal for seeking wisdom acquires it ultimately.

572 ploome hineni[deleted]  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:36:45pm
573 Thanos  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:36:59pm

re: #531 jc59

Do you do anything besides cut n' paste? Can't you speak for yourself?

574 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:37:09pm

re: #549 Walter L. Newton

Thanks, Walter.

575 rightwingva  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:37:13pm

re: #560 Sharmuta

As a guy from a Mennonite family with Amish cousins, most of us just want you to STAY OUT OF OUR FIELDS!
:-0 LOL

576 Thanos  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:37:45pm

re: #567 theparson

Well, I go on duty at 0600 tomorrow so I'm off to bed. Goodnight my Lizard brothers and sisters.

Goodnight Mrs Callabash... where ever you are!

PS. Does anybody know where Walter is from? :)

Sleep well and I liked what you wrote well above for the most part.

577 zmdavid  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:38:00pm

re: #555 Salamantis

Treaty of Tripoli, 1796
[Link: www.stephenjaygould.org...]

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Is the Treaty of Tripoli still in force? I thought we fought another war with them after that. Would that void the treaty? Any legal expert out there?

578 DesertSage  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:38:05pm

re: #560 Sharmuta

I think most Americans want to be left alone, and that includes others not indoctrinating our kids.

Does that mean I can punch my kids science teacher now? The one who told him that evolution proves that God doesn't exist?

579 srmoss  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:38:42pm

I'm all for giving the ID topic a rest, along with the cheesy articles on missing link discoveries. Newspapers have printed those articles for years where an archaeologist digs up some bones proving that the earth is 300 million years old only to be outdone two months later by another archaeologist claiming that bones he found proves that its 450 million. Nothing wrong for wanting to be recognized but a little intellectual honesty is appreciated.

580 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:39:24pm

re: #578 DesertSage

Did you want to have assault charges pressed against you, Hon?

581 paxnhymn  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:40:55pm

so now we link "far right wing fundamentalists" like "Focus on the Family"(err.ok..obviously someone doesn't know a lot about the organization) with Islamic creationsists? Someone has truly gone down the Loo..let's see...Pro-Israel ....wants to see Israel pushed off into the sea....you are spitting in the face on an ally Charles and this is stupid!

582 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:41:01pm

re: #567 theparson

Well, I go on duty at 0600 tomorrow so I'm off to bed. Goodnight my Lizard brothers and sisters.

Goodnight Mrs Callabash... where ever you are!

PS. Does anybody know where Walter is from? :)

Do you mean me? This Walter. From, as in born, or from as in where I live now?

Born Brooklyn NY 1952. Lived in North Jersey, Dallas, Houston and now the Denver area, currently west of Denver, in the foothills of the Rockies, Golden, Co.

Walter in Golden, Co.

583 jc59  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:41:08pm

re: #573 Thanos

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

584 Intrepid  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:41:24pm

re: #551 irish rose

You must be an Irish girl.

I'm a bit of a mutt, but I've some of the Irish in me - probably more Welsh, though. I'm also a former Christian missionary who spent the better part of the last two decades in Asia. Spending so many years in a place and amongst people who constantly berated my religious beliefs - while I had to be patient, kind, loving - has evidently stored up some latent wrath!

Hee - I'm learning new (hard) lessons in life, and I'd imagine God is tickled pink.

585 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:41:35pm

re: #557 Kreuzueber Halbmond

Deal!
/done

586 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:41:42pm

re: #574 Kreuzueber Halbmond

Thanks, Walter.

You welcome.

And FYI, the bills...

"A law passed by the 84th Congress (P.L. 84-140) and approved by the President on July 30, 1956, the President approved a Joint Resolution of the 84th Congress, declaring IN GOD WE TRUST the national motto of the United States. IN GOD WE TRUST was first used on paper money in 1957, when it appeared on the one-dollar silver certificate. The first paper currency bearing the motto entered circulation on October 1, 1957. The Bureau of Engraving and Printing (BEP) was converting to the dry intaglio printing process. During this conversion, it gradually included IN GOD WE TRUST in the back design of all classes and denominations of currency."

Walter in Golden, Co

587 yochanan  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:41:54pm

jews are just like the mennonites on this question on religion we just wish to be left alone in our beliefs.

we do resent when we are not left alone in our religous beliefs.

588 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:42:05pm

re: #385 taxfreekiller

When we strayed off our flight plan in the Gulf of Mexico back in the late '70's and the Cuban MiG fire control radar locked on to the P-3 I was in and I was a button-push from being blown out of the sky, I nearly pissed myself, but I didn't plead for Divine intervention.

589 Kulhwch  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:42:36pm

re: #557 Kreuzueber Halbmond

Only if you keep your fucking science out of my religion!

Fucking science?  We have fucking science now?

}:)     [I guess it's back to school for my BS then ... ]

590 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:43:33pm

re: #538 mobaby

You have to pick your battles - if you think fundy Christians and fundy Mennonites are as big a threat as neo-nazis and cair, then go for it. And you also might want to consider all the threatening windmills out there.

Rigidly codistic dogmatists are always dangerous, regardless of the color, quantity or direction of their stripes. Any person who cannot recognize that is clearly not qualified to comment on this issue.

Period. We aren't talking about parables from Spanish novelists here. We are talking the subject of exclusionary extremism. Having a delusional fantasy quest in fiction is completely separate from those who wish to direct society down their countless dead end roads.

Maybe you ought to read Cervantes, instead of commenting about the work. I'm sure you've heard or read the word quixotic.

You can download the novel here, and read it at your leisure:
[Link: www.gutenberg.org...]

Won't cost you a penny.

591 paxnhymn  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:43:44pm

re: #578 DesertSage

Does that mean I can punch my kids science teacher now? The one who told him that evolution proves that God doesn't exist?


yes...square in the nose please. And when it falls, kick it in the ribs for me...

(I'm sorry. that ain't right)

592 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:43:47pm

Meanwhile, in other faith based science discussion - global warming purveyors are trying to link the current floods in the Midwest to global warming - relying on Army Corps of Engineers expectations of flood risks (did anyone notice the Corps has admitted that their risk maps are out of date and are spending $1 billion to update?

And did I mention that the temps have been constant or dropped off since 1998 despite COx emissions continuing to increase worldwide?

Never let the science get in the way of a good rant that could affect social policy and federal law. /global warming advocates

593 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:44:45pm

re: #392 anduril3019

Who are they? What law did they get passed? What did they insinuate? Cynical? Sectarian religious doctrine, OK, I'll give you that one. What state?

My comment was related directly to the article about asking that schools in New Zealand distribute their materials. Again, where is the underhandedness? Take it easy. Maybe you know something about this I don't, but the linked article says nothing about anything you mentioned. You're sounding just a tad defensive.

Sal: You haven't been reading the articles in LGF; Bobby Jindal recently signed just such a law for the US state of Louisiana.

594 DesertSage  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:45:03pm

re: #580 Sharmuta

Did you want to have assault charges pressed against you, Hon?

No, that's why I resisted. I haven't punched anyone for over 20 years. But the guy really pissed me off.

595 Thanos  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:45:03pm

re: #577 zmdavid

Is the Treaty of Tripoli still in force? I thought we fought another war with them after that. Would that void the treaty? Any legal expert out there?

That's a very interesting question, however that treaty was with governments that no longer exist.

596 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:45:09pm

re: #578 DesertSage

I hope you know I disagree with your kid's teacher, but I also think resorting to violence isn't the proper course.

597 yochanan  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:45:50pm

some secularists like the ACLU make a religion out of there secularism and want to force there beleifs on everyone.

598 slokat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:46:28pm

150 years... wow!
And I mean, wow!

If all other areas of human knowledge had advanced as slowly, as this area of study, we'd all be sitting around wood stoves discussing the fastest steam ship & if we could build a large enough catapult to reach the moon.

599 paxnhymn  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:46:42pm

re: #597 yochanan

some secularists like the ACLU make a religion out of there secularism and want to force there beleifs on everyone.

yes..secular humanism has been recognized as areligion into itself...

600 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:46:45pm

re: #559 Dan G.

In particular, why wouldn't you mind having the 10 commandments in courts? That is explicit endorsement of a specific religion.


Technically speaking you can make a case against that stuff but why bother? I have no problem with a crucifix on a public memorial, I can't imagine why I'd care one way or the other. If you wanted to put a monument of two guys kissing in DC with the inscription "God Rules!" I'd be first in line to have my picture taken in front of it. It's a non-issue for me.

601 Kulhwch  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:47:00pm

re: #550 Sharmuta

So now Charles is Don Quixote and the rest of us who agree we don't like these groups are Sancho Panza?

Could be worse.  We could be Dulcinea.

By the by, you know it makes them scarecrows, windmills, imaginary foes, etc., if their reasoning [sic] is applied thusly?  If the analogy holds, they look worse than we do.

}:)     [And THAT is the natural order of things, I think!]

602 DesertSage  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:47:38pm

re: #596 Sharmuta

I hope you know I disagree with your kid's teacher

I know you do, you're consistent. That's why I like you.

603 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:47:45pm

re: #400 Kreuzueber Halbmond

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For that reason alone, people of other faiths have been afforded freedom of worship here." - Patrick Henry.

I mistakenly dinged this up; I'm quite certain that Thomas Paine strenuously disagreed.

604 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:48:23pm

re: #596 Sharmuta

Agreed. Advocating vigilantism will get you a visit from Mr. Beaumont.

605 Cognito  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:48:51pm

re: #590 really grumpy big dog Johnson

Rigidly codistic dogmatists are always dangerous, regardless of the color, quantity or direction of their stripes. Any person who cannot recognize that is clearly not qualified to comment on this issue.

Period. We aren't talking about parables from Spanish novelists here. We are talking the subject of exclusionary extremism. Having a delusional fantasy quest in fiction is completely separate from those who wish to direct society down their countless dead end roads.

Maybe you ought to read Cervantes, instead of commenting about the work. I'm sure you've heard or read the word quixotic.

You can download the novel here, and read it at your leisure:
[Link: www.gutenberg.org...]

Won't cost you a penny.

Absolutely.

And forget scale or common sense. Let's not forget how 'rigidly codistic' (?) they are.

Just the other day someone forwarded me yet another video of a Presbyterian in Virginia beheading a tourist who wandered into the wrong part of Colonial Williamsburg.

It's all just so sick. And Quixotic.

606 ConservativeAtheist  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:49:06pm

re: #578 DesertSage

Does that mean I can punch my kids science teacher now? The one who told him that evolution proves that God doesn't exist?

What a tool! That's the kind of dolt that gives atheists a bad name.

607 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:49:34pm

re: #603 Salamantis

I mistakenly dinged this up; I'm quite certain that Thomas Paine strenuously disagreed.

He didn't even write that. Pretty sad to go revisionist on the Founders when they were remarkable enough men on their own terms.

608 Intrepid  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:49:44pm

re: #556 yehoshua

Mentioning God or Creationism in school does not establish any religion. Belief in evolution is as much of a religion as belief in God.

Sorry, I don't agree here. I pray to God to help me with my daily challenges, and He does. I have never prayed to "evolution" to help me do anything.

Regardless, even if I trusted in evolution to help me, I don't think I can afford the time it would take for any help to arrive!

609 ArcherB  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:50:04pm

re: #326 Sharmuta

IT'S A HISTORICAL FACT! Facts upset you, do they? Our Founders felt the need to have a separation between Church and State. Americans cherish this.

Is that why they opened every congressional session with a prayer, since BEFORE 1776?

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you on the separation thing, but don't assume that the founders were as anti-religion as the Supreme Court has made us today.

Rather than simply tell you to look it up, I'll actually explain some of it to you and try to provide you some links along the way:

The reason the Establishment Clause was put in the Bill of Rights was because so many of the colonists were pissed because England had broken broke with the Catholic Church and created the "Church of England". As you can imagine, this upset many colonials. So, they put the Establishment Clause into the First Amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


The whole idea was to NOT have the country have a state sponsored religion. Could you imaging having to change churches every time a president was elected that had a different religion? Either way, if the founders had intended to ban all religion from government, they would have written "Congress shall make no law respecting religion... Otherwise, like I said at the beginning of this, the founders would have objected to starting Congressional sessions with a prayer as it would have been deemed Unconstitutional. And who would know what is Constitutional more than the guys who wrote the thing.
So, tell me, is Ben Franklin unconstitutional?

“In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers. Sir. were heard and they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a superintending Providence in our favor. . . . And have we now forgotten this powerful Friend? Or do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?
“I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth: ‘that God governs in the affairs of man.’ And if a sparrow cannot fail to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel; we shall be divided by our little partial local interest; our projects will be confounded; and we ourselves shall become a reproach and a byword down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter, from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing government by human wisdom and leave it to chance, war, or conquest.
610 rightwingva  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:50:19pm

re: #599 paxnhymn

I once watched Andy Rooney go off on a little Secular Humanism tirade on TV one night, it was really entertaining. Of course, if I told him to keep his religion to himself, he would probably punch me in the nose. ;-)

611 yochanan  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:50:26pm

re: #603 Salamantis

revisionist history will not change what the majority of America's founding fathers believed. just read Geo Washington's thanksgiving speech.

612 ploome hineni[deleted]  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:50:29pm
613 marjoriemoon  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:50:31pm

re: #513 sparrowlake

Actually, if you want to be very literal - parshat b'raysheet uses the terminology "va'y'hee erev, va'y'hee boker", which literally means "there was evening and there was morning".
The Torah therefore does not literally account for the part of the day between morning and evening.
I'm no biblical scholar but this does seem to put the kaibosh to your literalist argument.

Have you all ever read Dr. Gerald Schroeder? Here's the wiki on him
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...] He's written a few books on the Torah and Evolution, or how he sees it, how science found God.

Gerald L. Schroeder, scientist, author, and noted lecturer, has attained a reputation of focusing on the relationship inherent between science and spirituality. His authored works include Genesis and the Big Bang, The Science of God: The Convergence of Scientific and Biblical Wisdom, and The Hidden Face of God: Science Reveals the Ultimate Truth.

I haven't read his books but excerpts from the site.

He acknowledges that the Talmud is quite literal about the 6 days being 24 hours, but still not measured in the way time is measured today. And wasn't it Einstein who discovered it? The theory of relativity? or the unified field theory? That time goes much slower when mass is thicker? I'm not a scientist after all...

Nachmanides the kabbalist said that the six 24 hour days contained "kol yemot ha olam" or "all the ages and all the secrets of the world". Quite a long 24 hour day, I'd say.

614 yehoshua  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:50:31pm

re: #571 Luigi

Thank you, Luigi.

And the Book of Proverbs, written by King Solomon, were divinely inspired of course.

Some day, as the prophet Isaiah said, "the earth will be as full of the knowledge of God as water covers the ocean bed."

615 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:52:15pm

re: #569 Dan G.

What science group is trying to use the legislature to force Darwin's ideas to be included in each sermon on genesis? Which science group is rewriting bibles?

You're barking up the wrong tree. Killgore smarted off and I reacted in kind. My beef is with science teachers who promote atheism and show anti-Christian bias in the classroom. They're just as worthless as the ID'ers.

616 paxnhymn  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:52:33pm

re: #605 Cognito


nicely put. and of course this discourse has been completely devoid of any recognition of the millions of dollars and resources that the "far-right fundamentalists" have pumped into Israel.They're jsut so damn dangerous you know..

617 yochanan  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:53:00pm

just like the second amendment the aclu seems to forget parts of the bill of rights they don't like. it was freedom of religion not freedom FROM FROM RELIGION

618 Charles  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:53:00pm

The mystery dingers are here again.

619 paxnhymn  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:53:22pm

re: #607 Sharmuta


who wrote it?

620 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:54:12pm

re: #609 ArcherB

Would it shock you to learn Founders such as Franklin, Washington and Jefferson rarely attended church?

I won't deny the Founders respected God and religion, but that doesn't necessarily equate with them being religious themselves.

621 rightwingva  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:54:30pm

re: #618 Charles

Hi Charles, as someone who never dings up or down, can you please tell us what is a mystery dinger?

622 Thanos  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:54:44pm

re: #559 Dan G.

Not sure I follow. When I said politics, I'm talking about the political sphere (i.e. laws, courts, etc...). In particular, why wouldn't you mind having the 10 commandments in courts? That is explicit endorsement of a specific religion.

The ten commandments are perfect examples of historic laws, among the first that human societies followed. They are perfectly fitting for a courtroom. Even though I'm an aetheist, I'm somewhat happy that the ten commandments were followed by large segments of humanity, and that they helped foster civilization - I look upon them as a good thing. However because I am an aetheist the "no other G-D" part doesn't thrill me but I certainly understand the reasoning.

623 Slumbering Behemoth  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:54:46pm

re: #472 SpaceJesus

You are not the only one to make such an observation. Lizard GSMC made some on this thread a while back. Here are a few:

Founding principles of America (2) –
Separation of powers: Explicitly denied by the Bible. As above, in the Bible's divine-right monarchy, a single individual wields supreme power over all functions of government. Some apologists seek to find an equivalent in a verse from Isaiah 33 - "For the Lord is our judge, the Lord is our lawgiver, the Lord is our king" - but what they overlook is that this verse explicitly envisions all three of these powers as being held by the same person.

Founding principles of America (5) –
Religious freedom: Explicitly denied by the Bible. Far from granting people the right to worship as they see fit, the Bible says that anyone who encourages believers to serve other gods, or anyone who speaks "blasphemy", should be killed (Deuteronomy 13:6-9, Leviticus 24:16). God himself joins in on many occasions by slaughtering people who worship different gods (Exodus 22:20). Although Jesus does say that people should "render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's" (Mark 12:17), there is no indication that any non-Christian should enjoy the same freedom of worship as believers.

Founding principles of America (6) –
Freedom of speech, assembly, press and petition: Explicitly denied by the Bible. As above, the Bible does not grant freedom of speech, but rather threatens death for those who speak in unapproved ways. Ancient Israel had no concept of the press, but there are also many cases in which people were killed for unapproved assemblies or for questioning their leaders (Numbers 16:35).

624 irish rose  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:55:07pm

I'm exhausted, and I have a long work day tomorrow.
G'night, all.

625 ArcherB  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:55:18pm

re: #507 irish rose

I didn't call you a world-class jerk... my lovely daughter did.
A casual, dispassionate observation by someone who is not otherwise invested in this topic.

Did I mention that she's also a readhead?

Relax. I was trying to be light, but I often don't come across that way. You are free to call me whatever you like. I saw what my mother went through so I have more respect for the parents of service members that than the service members themselves.

As for you daughter, well, she has earned the right to call me whatever she likes as well... or she will earn that right soon enough, and then some.

I only wish that insulting me would make life easier for the two of you.

626 Typicalwhitey  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:55:22pm

Obama used to believe in evolution but his view has evolved.....

/ducks and runs out of the room

627 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:55:37pm

re: #432 ASU86PE

The "divine" Right of Kings was a fourteen century concoction; most notably Louis XIV.

Biblical logic is evident and there's really no dispute. It's history not me.

Yes ,there were elections prior to Christianity, but this was about Darwin and his lost thoughts. It just got tangential on to this issue.

Darwin's lost thoughts? The man seemed to have found much more than most.

628 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:56:09pm

re: #619 paxnhymn

Here.

629 ypnxjkb  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:56:15pm

Natural selection is not exactly evolution. Evolution is the theory of active mutations benefitting a species, Natural Selection is the theory of passive mutations . But guess what,,, ALL ARE THEORIES- YOU CAN'T PROVE ANY OF IT! anyway i am going back sleep, wake me when the foamers fingers go numb.

630 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:56:33pm

re: #603 Salamantis

I mistakenly dinged this up; I'm quite certain that Thomas Paine strenuously disagreed.

Yep, I won't be pasting quotes from now on unless I have a credible source.

631 MandyManners  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:56:42pm

re: #625 ArcherB

Bringing condescension to a new low.

632 paxnhymn  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:56:43pm

re: #626 Typicalwhitey

Obama used to believe in evolution but his view has evolved.....

/ducks and runs out of the room


incorrect terminology...new media term...he's recalibrating his position.

633 DesertSage  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:57:04pm

re: #620 Sharmuta

Would it shock you to learn Founders such as Franklin, Washington and Jefferson rarely attended church?

One does not have to attend church to be deeply religious.*

*playing devils advocate again

634 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:57:43pm

re: #436 zmdavid

I don't think Sage said it was. Are you throwing the Declaration under the bus?

No, I'm just identifying which Founding Document includes the term 'Creator'.

635 Typicalwhitey  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:57:46pm

re: #632 paxnhymn

incorrect terminology...new media term...he's recalibrating his position.


recalibrating? The brakes on his bus sure need it!

636 wolfie  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:58:08pm

re: #504 Tigger2005

Well, I'm not really that stupid and misinformed...I definitely didn't get my history from a comic book. Yes, my comment was not accurate. Nevertheless the Church did wield immense power, and I don't see any indication that it ever tried to use that power to persuade secular rulers to institute democratic reforms.

The role of the Church in the development of English parliamentary institutions .......particularly in the 13th century reigns of John and Henry III.....was crucial.
The virtual disappearance of chattel slavery in Western Europe (until the early modern era & colonialism) was almost entirely due to church pressure.
The internal organization of the church, which (theoretically)stressed merit and actually did overlook humble origins was remarkable. (One reason for the celibacy rules was to avoid a priestly caste.)

So there are 3 "indications."

And BTW, I never said you were stupid....and I never thought it either.
I said you don't know much about medieval history.

637 paxnhymn  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:59:00pm

re: #628 Sharmuta

Here.


so it just was attributed to Henry post 1994? it's got to have some roots somewhere...

638 ArcherB  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:59:09pm

re: #620 Sharmuta

Would it shock you to learn Founders such as Franklin, Washington and Jefferson rarely attended church?

I won't deny the Founders respected God and religion, but that doesn't necessarily equate with them being religious themselves.

Very true. But their church attendance is not in question here. What was in question was if the Establishment Clause meant no religion in government. Since the men who wrote the Constitution opened their meetings with a prayer, I'm going to venture a guess and say NO. The Establishment Clause means that there will not be a Federal Church like the Church of England.

Rest assured, the Supreme Court has overturned the Founders and stated that the Establishment Clause means absolutely no religion from the state. And, believe it or not, I partially agree. You can't outlaw sin just because it's a sin.

639 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:59:22pm

re: #633 DesertSage

Hon- there are real mobys to deal with on these threads, so you'll excuse me if I politely ignore this.

640 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:59:44pm

re: #618 Charles

It's interesting that the dingers are not even involved enough to know that we're watching.

641 paxnhymn  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:00:11pm

re: #635 Typicalwhitey

recalibrating? The brakes on his bus sure need it!


yes.."recalibration" is this election cycles, "gravitas"....

sickening

642 EC Marm  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:00:18pm

re: #618 Charles

The mystery dingers are here again.


I see that "Allah" dinged down this thread.

643 marjoriemoon  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:00:52pm

re: #629 ypnxjkb

Natural selection is not exactly evolution. Evolution is the theory of active mutations benefitting a species, Natural Selection is the theory of passive mutations . But guess what,,, ALL ARE THEORIES- YOU CAN'T PROVE ANY OF IT! anyway i am going back sleep, wake me when the foamers fingers go numb.

Yep, just a theory. Kinda like gravity.

644 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:00:54pm

re: #642 EC Marm

Hallal!

645 zmdavid  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:00:57pm

Where do atheists get their morality? I recognize that they have it, and am grateful that they do, but where does it come from?

646 DesertSage  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:01:23pm

re: #639 Sharmuta

You're right, I'm getting carried away with this 'devils advocate' thing anyhow.
I'm late for diner, you keep up the good fight.

647 jc59  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:01:28pm

I think that the argument that the US was founded explicitly on Christianity is not supportable. But you can't ignore the effect of hundreds of years of Christian socialization on the American people. A lot of things had to go just right for the US to survive and rise to preeminence. Without Christianity, I doubt it would have played out that way.

And the US is just a special case. The same goes for Western Civilization as a whole.

648 Alouette  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:01:39pm

re: #618 Charles

The mystery dingers are here again.

How is it a mystery if we know who they are? (Sock puppets who signed up not to post but to ding)

649 Cognito  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:01:54pm

re: #643 marjoriemoon

Ah, gravity is a law, actually.

650 Dan G.  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:02:08pm

re: #615 Kreuzueber Halbmond

I agree, they shouldn't be addressing any such topic in class.

651 paxnhymn  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:02:11pm

re: #643 marjoriemoon


theory of gravity? you sure about that? It can be proven.

652 mobaby  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:02:26pm

re: #94 Salamantis

Sal: I guess you didn't see what Charles found out about Ol' Dinesh:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I did not see this about Dinesh - if what Victor Davis Hanson says is factually accurate (and I am not saying it isn't, but I want to research some more), it does seem a little unsettling. Dinesh is Catholic I know, so I am a little non-plussed as to where he is coming from. I have read him for years on many different topics in National Review - huh....these are certainly strange times.

653 experiencedtraveller  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:02:40pm

Our British allies in WWI lost 20,000 soldiers DEAD on this day 1 July 1916.

Where is the old battalion? Hanging on the old barbed wire.

654 paxnhymn  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:02:50pm

re: #649 Cognito

Ah, gravity is a law, actually.


thanks again, Cog. thought so.

655 ArcherB  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:03:06pm

re: #631 MandyManners

Bringing condescension to a new low.

Sorry if you disagree, but I was being sincere. I would give examples, but, frankly, I don't owe you anything. I hate to be blunt, but that is the truth.

656 Boogberg  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:03:11pm

re: #618 Charles

LMAO! It's your fault anyways. You're the one who started this dinging business. Weren't you warned about what would happen? :D

657 yochanan  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:03:13pm

re: #645 zmdavid

IT WOULD DEPEND ON THE ATHIEST communist athiest don't have morality.

658 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:03:44pm

re: #647 jc59

But you can't ignore the effect of hundreds of years of Christian socialization on the American people.

I don't think anyone here has done that. What some of us have done is point out the fact it was not the sole reasoning behind our founding.

659 Intrepid  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:03:49pm

re: #605 Cognito

Absolutely.

And forget scale or common sense. Let's not forget how 'rigidly codistic' (?) they are.

Just the other day someone forwarded me yet another video of a Presbyterian in Virginia beheading a tourist who wandered into the wrong part of Colonial Williamsburg.

It's all just so sick. And Quixotic.

Dang - I want to go to Colonial Williamsburg and study, but now I'm a bit scared of the Presbyterians and their wrath! Are their casseroles more deadly than the Baptists, or even worse, than the Charismatics'? (since I left the Baptist church to join a Charismatic one)

Haven't yet heard of a Fatwa out of Dallas against me for leaving the Baptist church, which is especially good, since I live in the Nashville area, and we're swimming in Baptists! Fundamental ones, too!

/how wonderful that Christians aren't like the ROP!

660 nightintheruts  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:03:58pm

I cannot believe in evolution and natural selection simply because the democratic party still exists.
Much like the duck-billed platypus, I look at their leaders and go, "wtf?"

I do believe in God/creation - and He is very much into practical jokes.

661 HarryTheHawk  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:04:05pm

Is LGF now just an evolution blog? I don't understand this fixation on ID...

662 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:04:23pm

re: #459 wolfie

I like a lot of your post, and especially your mention of English law, which many overlook!

But the paragraph I have quoted is way off base.

The Church never held absolute power in the Western world.
Not even close.
I cannot begin to correct your comic-book view of medieval history here, but I will say this much. Many of the peculiar institutions of the West owe much to the fact that the civil and religious authorities were in a state of tension for centuries. Sometimes they fought....(Magna Carta, e.g., would not have been written w/o the Church.)... sometimes they cooperated. But there were "two swords," so to speak.
This precarious separation between the spiritual and political powers is utterly bizarre in human history, BTW.
(The tendency in early modern Europe was to resolve the conflict by placing religion under the control of the state, but that brings us to a different era.)

The Holy Roman Empire.

663 Dan G.  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:04:55pm

re: #622 Thanos

I understand that they are in the historical lineage; I'm just not convinced that they were the starting point of such laws... At any rate, I haven't yet, nor will likely ever make it my life's work to fight something like that (or the phrase on the money). But I drives me crazy when theocrats use such things as justifcations/rationalizations for their efforts.

664 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:05:19pm

re: #637 paxnhymn

From Tigger's link:
[Link: rationalrant.blogspot.com...]
Some guy named David Barton wrote it (made it up) for an article in the September 1956 issue of The American Mercury.

665 EC Marm  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:05:31pm

re: #645 zmdavid

Where do atheists get their morality? I recognize that they have it, and am grateful that they do, but where does it come from?


Isn't that just a little bit of a sweeping statement? How many murders occur in this country every year? Since all major religions have prohibitions against murder, I submit that all murderers are atheists. Just as sweeping a statement, is it not?

666 paxnhymn  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:06:05pm

re: #661 HarryTheHawk

Is LGF now just an evolution blog? I don't understand this fixation on ID...

nor it's use to tear a right between allies...I'm starting to believe there are some here that want a cookie-cutter lockstep mind think here..

667 slokat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:06:17pm

re: #651 paxnhymn

theory of gravity? you sure about that? It can be proven.

Cool, You've proven gravity! let me hear it?

668 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:06:37pm

re: #464 Steve

"If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not have been formed by numerous, successive slight modifications my theory would break down." Charles Darwin from 'Origin of Species'

And that has never been demonstrated, although many have tried.

669 mobaby  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:06:40pm

re: #590 really grumpy big dog Johnson

Rigidly codistic dogmatists are always dangerous, regardless of the color, quantity or direction of their stripes. Any person who cannot recognize that is clearly not qualified to comment on this issue.

Period. We aren't talking about parables from Spanish novelists here. We are talking the subject of exclusionary extremism. Having a delusional fantasy quest in fiction is completely separate from those who wish to direct society down their countless dead end roads.

Maybe you ought to read Cervantes, instead of commenting about the work. I'm sure you've heard or read the word quixotic.

You can download the novel here, and read it at your leisure:
[Link: www.gutenberg.org...]

Won't cost you a penny.

You truly aptly picked your name.

670 marjoriemoon  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:06:42pm

re: #651 paxnhymn

theory of gravity? you sure about that? It can be proven.

Newton's laws are often referred to "Newton's theory of universal gravitation." I was trying to make a point, but I may have missed.

671 ArcherB  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:06:46pm

re: #658 Sharmuta

I don't think anyone here has done that. What some of us have done is point out the fact it was not the sole reasoning behind our founding.

Very True. Taxation probably played a bigger part in the founding of America than religion ever did. (or at least the revolution)

672 rawmuse  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:07:00pm

I'm having a hard time believing that the US is in danger of changing in to a theocracy when, buy all accounts I read, church membership is declining in all states except the South.

673 Dan G.  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:07:16pm

re: #645 zmdavid

From the identity of what a human is. Certain behaviors are detrimental to continued existence, others are beneficial. The rest flows from there, but I won't hash it out here.

674 Dan G.  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:07:27pm

Nite all.

675 Intrepid  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:07:46pm

re: #610 rightwingva

I once watched Andy Rooney go off on a little Secular Humanism tirade on TV one night, it was really entertaining. Of course, if I told him to keep his religion to himself, he would probably punch me in the nose. ;-)

...right after he dug himself out from under those eye brows, I'm sure. Those puppies were like balconies over his eyes!

676 itellu3times  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:08:06pm

Celebrate evolution, have some watermelon:

Watermelon, the New Oyster? Fruit Said to Have 'Viagra-Like' Effects on Blood Vessels

Forget the oysters. Texas A&M scientists say watermelon contains ingredients that deliver Viagra-like effects to the body's blood vessels and may even increase the libido.

Researchers from Texas A&M long have studied the fruit and found that it contains natural "enhancers" to the human body.

"We've always known that watermelon is good for you, but the list of its very important healthful benefits grows longer with each study," said Bhimu Patil, director of Texas A&M's Fruit and Vegetable Improvement Center, in a news release from the university.

677 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:08:31pm

re: #645 zmdavid

Where do atheists get their morality? I recognize that they have it, and am grateful that they do, but where does it come from?


That;s a damn fine question. As an atheist I can honestly tell you that I'm not sure. Possibly from a human instinct for empathy, possibly an inherited evolutionary instinct of the Prisoner's Dilemma but when I look at the 10 Commandments hos many of them actually deal with real morality rather than religious orthodoxy? 20-30%? I guess I could easily ask "Where do Christians and Jews get their morality? Hindus and Buddhists? I don't know what the answer is but I suspect it's the same for all groups.

678 paxnhymn  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:08:39pm

re: #667 slokat

Cool, You've proven gravity! let me hear it?

I think it's the LAW of gravity...that makes it a benchmark.

679 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:08:48pm

re: #592 lawhawk

Meanwhile, in other faith based science discussion - global warming purveyors are trying to link the current floods in the Midwest to global warming - relying on Army Corps of Engineers expectations of flood risks (did anyone notice the Corps has admitted that their risk maps are out of date and are spending $1 billion to update?

And did I mention that the temps have been constant or dropped off since 1998 despite COx emissions continuing to increase worldwide?

Never let the science get in the way of a good rant that could affect social policy and federal law. /global warming advocates

In the meantime, the democrats dogmatically blocked pushing forward with nuclear reactors, insisting instead on maintaining the same old tired rules for construction and commissioning that have kept the US from starting and completing a nuclear power facility for more than twenty-five years, or more than two times longer than it took for the US to create a program to go to the moon and accomplish that goal.

But the dems can breathe easy now. They are taking paid vacations longer than most of us will ever have in our lifetimes as an annual right, so they can watch our national meltdown while uttering oohs and ahs as their national approval rating approaches the theoretically unattainable absolute zero.

Already Congress has the lowest approval rating of any public interest group in the history of scientific (sorry, using a bad word here) polling. We can only guess at what the gas price may be when they reconvene, when the first order of business will once again be to consider the impeachment of President Bush and VP Cheney.

The dems are missing the point. They were sure that Iraq would be the big issue. They were even more sure when the economy went sour that it would be a guarantee of an historic sweep of power in Washington. Apparently, things are not going so well in newworldville.

According to the dems, unnamed federal bureaucrats have promised them 50 million to bail out their failing convention, the one that they already can't afford. I can't wait until the security folk are told to stay home because the dems weren't willing to pay with other than bad plastic credit.

680 slokat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:09:30pm

re: #678 paxnhymn

I think it's the LAW of gravity...that makes it a benchmark.

Wrong, try again...

681 Cognito  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:09:59pm

re: #667 slokat

Cool, You've proven gravity! let me hear it?


re: #667 slokat

Cool, You've proven gravity! let me hear it?

Well, I'm not sure how to do subscripts here, but otherwise it looks a bit like this:

F = G m1m2/r2

Thanks, Newtie.

682 Thanos  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:10:22pm

re: #645 zmdavid

Where do atheists get their morality? I recognize that they have it, and am grateful that they do, but where does it come from?

You derive them by reason from your aesthetics, metaphysics, and values. It takes a hell of a lot of thinking and reading, and a fair amount of pain and experience - I do not recommend it to everyone, especially those who think that it's inevitable that humanity reverts to Nietschzean animalism without G-D.

683 paxnhymn  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:10:30pm

re: #680 slokat

Wrong, try again...


bite me. this is childish.

684 Intrepid  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:10:38pm

re: #614 yehoshua

Sir, Solomon didn't write all of the proverbs.....

685 pat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:11:22pm

Wife just noticed cherry tree was covered with fruit, as is orange tree. Just came in from stuffing herself.

686 wolfie  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:11:29pm

re: #506 Sharmuta

Our Founders wanted a theocracy? Our Founders were not inspired by more than the Bible?

You said: "Our Founders felt the need to have a separation between Church and state."

That is not a fact.

Re theocracy: I don't think any of the Founders wanted one in the strict sense of the term. Many, especially those from New England, had no problem with an established church.
Re influences: There were many. I think the conscious influences were much more from Common Law, the English "enlightenment," and Greco-Roman sources than from the Bible.

687 Cartman  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:11:41pm

re: #645 zmdavid

Where do atheists get their morality? I recognize that they have it, and am grateful that they do, but where does it come from?

The threat that Zeus might toss a thunderbolt or two their way if they don't behave?

688 Boogberg  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:12:10pm

Oh shit. Only a hundred or so comments to go and I lose 500 quatloos! Bastards! :D

689 Salem  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:12:39pm

re: #645 zmdavid

Where do atheists get their morality? I recognize that they have it, and am grateful that they do, but where does it come from?

Pfft! Where did the architects of the Inquisition get their morality? Where did the witch-burners get their morality?

690 slokat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:12:42pm

re: #681 Cognito

Well, I'm not sure how to do subscripts here, but otherwise it looks a bit like this:

F = G m1m2/r2

Thanks, Newtie.

Wrong also...

691 Cognito  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:13:13pm

re: #690 slokat

Wrong also...

How so?

692 Thanos  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:13:18pm

re: #663 Dan G.

I understand that they are in the historical lineage; I'm just not convinced that they were the starting point of such laws... At any rate, I haven't yet, nor will likely ever make it my life's work to fight something like that (or the phrase on the money). But I drives me crazy when theocrats use such things as justifcations/rationalizations for their efforts.


The grandstanders who would shove god under everyone's nose are as annoying as the gays at the Folsom st. fair who would shove their practices in everyone's face. Obviously the two are NOT morally equivalent, since the former hopefully has good intentions but bad aim, while the latter has both bad intention and bad aim.

693 Radboss  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:13:37pm

Fundamentally this debate comes down to world view. Sadly, this point is not fleshed out enough in most of the posts. (Nor is it an easy medium to have a reasonable debate due to the fast and furious pace of the posts.)

The reason that these types of articles and Charles' commentary provoke such response is due to the core world views typically represented in the debate. I am going to be painting with some broad strokes here so forgive my generalizations.

Essentially, you believe in the supernatural or you don't. How we came to be, how our universe and our world got here and the related theories/beliefs, are parts of a larger debate that tries to bring meaning to our existence. If you completely exclude the supernatural, then our existence is nothing more than a very long series of random, chance events and adaptations that have led us to the present. There is no right and wrong, good or evil, only advantageous or disadvantageous. If we have merely evolved from the purely material, how can we trust our own thoughts? If you start with the premise that the material is all that there is, at least be logically consistent.

I look forward to the comments.

694 mobaby  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:13:44pm

re: #550 Sharmuta

So now Charles is Don Quixote and the rest of us who agree we don't like these groups are Sancho Panza?

You can only extend the metaphor so far....I guess it just that I really don't feel that threatening. Maybe I am - I should join up with the Mystery Men as Mr. Furious' side kick.

695 Slumbering Behemoth  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:13:54pm

re: #560 Sharmuta

I think most Americans want to be left alone, and that includes others not indoctrinating our kids.

Some of the earliest currency in this country carried the motto "Mind Your Business". I'd like to see that make a comeback.

696 slokat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:13:58pm

re: #683 paxnhymn

bite me. this is childish.

Whatever, I'm serious that you aren't proving gravity.

697 Bob in Breckenridge  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:14:06pm

O/T, but with a Code Pink perspective, zombie-

Protesters split weeks before Dem Convention

BY THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

DENVER — They adopted a bold name — Re-create 68 — promising a protesters’ show of force like in Chicago 40 years ago when the Democratic National Convention comes to Denver in August.

But the Denver-based umbrella coalition ranging from anarchists to environmentalists has fractured in recent months. Prominent activists have split with Re-create 68 over its incendiary rhetoric and, according to some, its refusal to endorse nonviolent protest.

“My understanding was that there was some resistance to really settling on a commitment to non-violence,” said Dana Balicki, whose group, Codepink, joined a new protest coalition for the convention.

Re-create 68 appeared shortly after Denver’s selection as convention host. On its Web site, the group once vowed its protests here would make the 1968 clashes with police in Chicago “look like a small get-together.”

[Link: www.summitdaily.com...]

698 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:14:39pm

re: #479 yochanan

BULL

So you woulod agree, then, that the Muslims have a good case against Mark Steyn and Ezra levant?

699 Cognito  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:14:44pm

re: #696 slokat

Whatever, I'm serious that you aren't proving gravity.

See 691.

700 wolfie  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:15:04pm

re: #532 Killgore Trout

I have no problem with that on our money. I have no problem with "under god" in our pledge of allegiance. I have no problem with the ten Commandments in courthouses and I have no problem with sitting through grace at someone's dinner table but keep your fucking religion out of my science!

DING DING DING ++++++++++

701 sojerofgod  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:15:24pm

re: #114 pre-Boomer Marine brat
Now there's a man after my own heart!

Hail the Warlord of Barsoom!

(and his faithful calot Woola!)

702 slokat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:16:11pm

re: #691 Cognito

How so?

You have an equation that contains a supernatural element in it.

The equation itself, describes a reaction not gravity.

703 paxnhymn  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:16:19pm

re: #696 slokat

Whatever, I'm serious that you aren't proving gravity.

I never set out to, and you're a bit obnoxious for a nic so young...

704 itellu3times  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:16:19pm

re: #682 Thanos

Nietschzean animalism

Whazzat?

Nietzschean animalism?
Yeah, that's probably what you meant.
/lol

705 pat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:16:27pm

If there were evolution, there would be no Muslims, no Kos, no Warmists, no Scientology, and no carrot juice.

706 Mr Pancakes  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:16:34pm

re: #621 rightwingva

Hi Charles, as someone who never dings up or down, can you please tell us what is a mystery dinger?

I believe it's a newbie or infrequent poster that dings threads up or down, and it's their main contribution to LGF.

"The Mystery Dingers" sounds like a cool name for a band.

707 Cognito  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:16:34pm

re: #702 slokat

You have an equation that contains a supernatural element in it.

The equation itself, describes a reaction not gravity.

So the law of gravity is bunk, you're saying?

708 Indefatigable  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:16:38pm

re: #85 Charles

But that issue was with one of D'Souza's books that was unrelated to the topic at hand. The view on evolution in "What's So Great About Christianity?" was something that supported it, if I recall.

709 FrogMarch  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:16:54pm

Not everyone in the ID movement is a freak. There are some wonderful modern philosophers who, much like the enlightenment philosophers, intertwine science and observation. Things have changed - back then you had to believe in God, now you are treated like a freak if you do.

I think therefore I am was part of Rene Descarte's proof of the theory of God.... called Meditations.

710 Slumbering Behemoth  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:17:46pm

re: #578 DesertSage

Does that mean I can punch my kids science teacher now? The one who told him that evolution proves that God doesn't exist?

No, but you should definitely take that up with the principal, PTA, or school board, 'cuz that is just as inappropriate as what the DI is trying to do.

711 Thanos  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:17:57pm

re: #693 Radboss

Fundamentally this debate comes down to world view. Sadly, this point is not fleshed out enough in most of the posts. (Nor is it an easy medium to have a reasonable debate due to the fast and furious pace of the posts.)

The reason that these types of articles and Charles' commentary provoke such response is due to the core world views typically represented in the debate. I am going to be painting with some broad strokes here so forgive my generalizations.

Essentially, you believe in the supernatural or you don't. How we came to be, how our universe and our world got here and the related theories/beliefs, are parts of a larger debate that tries to bring meaning to our existence. If you completely exclude the supernatural, then our existence is nothing more than a very long series of random, chance events and adaptations that have led us to the present. There is no right and wrong, good or evil, only advantageous or disadvantageous. If we have merely evolved from the purely material, how can we trust our own thoughts? If you start with the premise that the material is all that there is, at least be logically consistent.

I look forward to the comments.

There you go again.

"Aetheists can't have morals, the world must be Nietschzean if there isn't a god, if you believe in evolution, you can't believe in god"

A more concise version of what you said?

712 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:18:04pm

So. What did y'all work out? Which is right, ID or Darwin?

713 rawmuse  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:18:09pm

re: #400 Kreuzueber Halbmond

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For that reason alone, people of other faiths have been afforded freedom of worship here." - Patrick Henry.

IIRC, Mr. Henry was a critic of our Constitution, and did in no way approve of it.

714 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:18:41pm

re: #707 Cognito

So the law of gravity is bunk, you're saying?

Gravity is a social construct.

715 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:19:18pm

re: #493 wolfie

You happen to be wrong.
But I fear the actual FACTS would upset you.

That's what is meant by the 1st Amendment. The US shall neither prohibit any kind of religious worship, nor shall it privilege any religion(s) over any other(s).

716 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:19:23pm

re: #714 Occasional Reader

Intelligent falling!

717 nyc redneck  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:19:32pm

i don;t think religious people should have any trouble w/ fossils. believing in evolution certainly doesn't mean there isn't a grand creator of the whole scheme of things.

718 Cognito  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:19:53pm

re: #714 Occasional Reader

Gravity is a social construct.

Huh. So if there were no society, apples would just float to the sky?

719 paxnhymn  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:19:56pm

re: #709 FrogMarch

Not everyone in the ID movement is a freak. There are some wonderful modern philosophers who, much like the enlightenment philosophers, intertwine science and observation. Things have changed - back then you had to believe in God, now you are treated like a freak if you do.

I think therefore I am was part of Rene Descarte's proof of the theory of God.... called Meditations.

careful. Descarte also questioned the scientific method (rightly so) and that is a god to some here as well. it's OK to trash the Christians, but not science...

720 USBeast  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:20:26pm

I don't "believe" in evolution in the same way I don't "believe" in gravity. The fact of evolution has been well established both in the laboratory and the field. The only arguments left are over the how and the why organisms change over time.

Science is its own proof of evolution. Science evolves.

721 sojerofgod  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:20:32pm

re: #712 Occasional Reader


Heh, I think it was the great pumpkin.

Or maybe the great attractor

722 Boogberg  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:20:33pm

re: #712 Occasional Reader

So. What did y'all work out? Which is right, ID or Darwin?

Darwin.

723 jc59  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:20:38pm

If what is the source of "inalienable rights? Who grants them?

724 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:20:42pm

re: #716 Killgore Trout

Intelligent falling!

Note how that equation privileges "M", as in "Male", as in "White Male Patriarchy".

725 slokat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:21:02pm

re: #703 paxnhymn

I never set out to, and you're a bit obnoxious for a nic so young...

Whatever - I have knowledge that you don't feel is important.
Doesn't phase me.

726 Salem  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:21:20pm

re: #672 rawmuse

I'm having a hard time believing that the US is in danger of changing in to a theocracy when, buy all accounts I read, church membership is declining in all states except the South.

Well, that may be a good argument against the advocates of teaching ID in science class, but it certainly doesn't appear to be stopping them from advocating ID in science class. If fact, that obviously motivates them all the more. It's like any other racket.

727 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:21:50pm

re: #723 jc59

If what is the source of "inalienable rights? Who grants them?

Aliens. Duh.

728 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:22:18pm

re: #722 Boogberg

Darwin.

Good. Thanks.

CHARLES, WE'RE ALL DONE HERE.

729 slokat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:22:30pm

re: #707 Cognito

So the law of gravity is bunk, you're saying?

I don't see how that is a logical conclusion from what I just posted.

730 FrogMarch  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:22:33pm

re: #712 Occasional Reader

So. What did y'all work out? Which is right, ID or Darwin?

I'm getting a bumper sticker with a Jesus fish swallowing a Darwin fish swallowing someone from the Discovery Institute.

or maybe a Darwin fish swallowing a Jesus fish swallowing someone from the Discovery Institute swallowing Bobby Jindal.

731 paxnhymn  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:22:51pm

re: #725 slokat

Whatever - I have knowledge that you don't feel is important.
Doesn't phase me.


and that, like the rest of your posts, is an opinion..

732 FrogMarch  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:23:01pm

re: #719 paxnhymn

careful. Descarte also questioned the scientific method (rightly so) and that is a god to some here as well. it's OK to trash the Christians, but not science...

careful? Who me? Never.

733 ArcherB  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:23:23pm

re: #700 wolfie

re: #532 Killgore Trout

I have no problem with that on our money. I have no problem with "under god" in our pledge of allegiance. I have no problem with the ten Commandments in courthouses and I have no problem with sitting through grace at someone's dinner table but keep your fucking religion out of my science!

DING DING DING ++++++++ ++

I agree Wolfie and Killgore... we have a winner here.

734 Cognito  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:23:32pm

re: #729 slokat

I don't see how that is a logical conclusion from what I just posted.

Well, you said the law of gravity -- which I posted in its mathematical form -- is "wrong."

735 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:24:13pm

re: #723 jc59

If what is the source of "inalienable rights? Who grants them?

I'd say humans but I'm a humanist.

736 Dan G.  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:24:17pm

I just had to come back and just had to see this...

re: #723 jc59

Rights aren't granted, privileges are.

737 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:24:56pm

re: #718 Cognito

Huh. So if there were no society, apples would just float to the sky?

They would slip the surly bonds of Earth. Surly bonds. Get it? Oppression, man.

738 slokat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:24:59pm

re: #731 paxnhymn

and that, like the rest of your posts, is an opinion..

Yours posts are theories? facts? or LAWS?

739 Cartman  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:25:07pm

re: #730 FrogMarch

It's Jesuses, Darwins and fishies, all the way down.

740 sojerofgod  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:25:10pm

re: #719 paxnhymn

Hey I can trash science with the best of them.

100 years ago, the best scientific minds in the country met to discuss how to improve the human race, like a bunch of cattle breeders going over their stock and marking the culls.
A few Highlights:

"10 idiot children are quite enough"
"useless eaters"
"Planned Parenthood"

I could go on. Every generation thinks they are the smartest, most with-it and on top of things group of humans to ever live.
Next to the thirst for dominance in our own social groups, Man's greatest failing is his unfailing vanity.

741 slokat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:25:28pm

pimf a stray "s" in that last post

742 Cognito  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:25:31pm

re: #737 Occasional Reader

They would slip the surly bonds of Earth. Surly bonds. Get it? Oppression, man.

Surly your jest.

(you got me, there)

743 Dan G.  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:25:39pm

re: #730 FrogMarch

Huh huh, you said swallow

/bevis

744 wolfie  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:26:27pm

re: #662 Salamantis

The Holy Roman Empire.

What about it?

As one wit put it, it was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire.

745 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:26:32pm

I would really think that some of you who prefer LGF to focus on the islamic threat sneeking it's way into our culture would be more focused on dealing with the creationists getting bamboozled by the islamists.

Perhaps instead of focusing on evolution, some of you could educate these groups towards the islamist threat, who is using them to promote islamic creationism. I thought the lessons of vlaams belang taught us that our enemy's enemy was not necessarily our friend. Looks like the creationists haven't learned that.

746 sngnsgt  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:26:56pm

re: #736 Dan G.

I just had to come back and just had to see this...

Rights aren't granted, privileges are.

Al Gore invented rights!

747 slokat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:27:01pm

re: #734 Cognito

Well, you said the law of gravity -- which I posted in its mathematical form -- is "wrong."

I asked for proof of gravity, the formula "assumes" gravity, does not prove it.

748 pat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:27:15pm

re: #718 Cognito

There is no 'law' of gravity. Gravity is a little understood phenomenon. Newton's Second Law really is a law of acceleration. It works in close planetary quarters, with phenomenal differences from Newtons formula both in theory and by observation at the extremes. Both micro and macro. If by law you are merely stating gravity is real, an unexpected fall cures that. Humans, as near relatives of arboreal cousins, have an innate understanding of Earth's gravity and are one of the better innate calculators of the same.

749 sojerofgod  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:27:33pm

re: #745 Sharmuta

sneeking?

750 yehoshua  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:27:36pm

re: #684 Intrepid

As a young man, Solomon wrote the Song of Songs.

In middle age, he wrote the Proverbs.

Towards the end of his life, he wrote Ecclesiastes.

751 ploome hineni[deleted]  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:28:11pm
752 jaunte  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:28:25pm

re: #745 Sharmuta

It's hard to refocus on the mundane politics involved, after we've been distracted by the Big Bang, the source of Morality, and all those turtles.

753 Cognito  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:28:28pm

re: #747 slokat

I asked for proof of gravity, the formula "assumes" gravity, does not prove it.

Right.

Tell you what. Pick up your computer, hold it overhead, and let it go.

What's that? You're hesitant?

Wonder why.

754 Dan G.  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:28:28pm

re: #746 sngnsgt

;) He does have a problem with temporal relationships doesn't he (conjuring the CO2 lag).

755 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:28:47pm

re: #740 sojerofgod

100 years ago, the best scientific minds in the country met to discuss how to improve the human race, like a bunch of cattle breeders going over their stock and marking the culls.
A few Highlights:

"10 idiot children are quite enough"
"useless eaters"
"Planned Parenthood"

Um... you're lumping together several different things, and claiming they all happened in a single meeting of "scientific minds". It doesn't help your argument when you just make shit up.

756 ypnxjkb  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:29:28pm

Yall aint figgered it out yet? we are all aliens from uranus

757 jc59  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:29:30pm

re: #735 Killgore Trout

I'd say humans but I'm a humanist.


I'm speaking in terms of the history of ideas-- not in religious terms. I would argue that the concept grew out of Western Religion. (My argument has nothing to do with whether Christianity or Judaism is true or not.)

758 Intrepid  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:29:35pm

re: #682 Thanos

You derive them by reason from your aesthetics, metaphysics, and values. It takes a hell of a lot of thinking and reading, and a fair amount of pain and experience - I do not recommend it to everyone, especially those who think that it's inevitable that humanity reverts to Nietschzean animalism without G-D.

Kind of like mountain climbers, when they're heading for the summit of Mount Everest from Camp 4, aka "the death zone"? It's "every man for themselves" up there, once they get past 28,000 feet.

/reading Jon Krakauer again....

759 sojerofgod  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:29:42pm

re: #751 ploome hineni

Can I sue Obama? He broke my bullshitometer a few months back and I can't get it fixed. Shops says its hopelessly stuck on the peg.

760 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:30:03pm

re: #709 FrogMarch

Not everyone in the ID movement is a freak. There are some wonderful modern philosophers who, much like the enlightenment philosophers, intertwine science and observation. Things have changed - back then you had to believe in God, now you are treated like a freak if you do.

I think therefore I am was part of Rene Descarte's proof of the theory of God.... called Meditations.

I like his contributions to analytical geometry and subsequently cartography a whole ot more...

I find "I think, therefore I am" as highly presumptive and indicative of the delimma of the human conditon.

761 ploome hineni[deleted]  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:30:18pm
762 jc59  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:30:38pm

re: #736 Dan G.

I agree with your correction.

763 Cognito  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:30:57pm

re: #748 pat

There is no 'law' of gravity. Gravity is a little understood phenomenon. Newton's Second Law really is a law of acceleration. It works in close planetary quarters, with phenomenal differences from Newtons formula both in theory and by observation at the extremes. Both micro and macro. If by law you are merely stating gravity is real, an unexpected fall cures that. Humans, as near relatives of arboreal cousins, have an innate understanding of Earth's gravity and are one of the better innate calculators of the same.

"Proving" anything is an exponential effort. Vast evidence can get you ever closer without ever eliminating the possibility of an exception.

Somewhere along the way, someone with common sense decided that yes, gravity is just about as proven as an idea can be. And I agree. Otherwise it's just a semantic game.

764 Noam Sayin'  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:31:17pm

Oh, fer cryin' out loud. Someone whip an apple at Slokat, already.

765 Intrepid  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:31:50pm

re: #685 pat

Wife just noticed cherry tree was covered with fruit, as is orange tree. Just came in from stuffing herself.

Woot! Pies are in the making? When I was a little kid (about 5) we lived in a place that had a cherry tree, and man oh man! It was great!

Nothing better than good, fresh cherries.

766 Thanos  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:31:52pm

re: #704 itellu3times

Whazzat?

Nietzschean animalism?
Yeah, that's probably what you meant.
/lol

No I am thinking more of the Church's view of Nietschze when I say that, not philosophers views of him.

[Link: books.google.com...]

You must speak the lingua franca when speaking to the French.

767 ArcherB  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:32:40pm

re: #745 Sharmuta

I would really think that some of you who prefer LGF to focus on the islamic threat sneeking it's way into our culture would be more focused on dealing with the creationists getting bamboozled by the islamists.

Perhaps instead of focusing on evolution, some of you could educate these groups towards the islamist threat, who is using them to promote islamic creationism. I thought the lessons of vlaams belang taught us that our enemy's enemy was not necessarily our friend. Looks like the creationists haven't learned that.

Well, I haven't seen an Internet videos of Creationists beheading anyone or flying planes into buildings.

I go to church and trust me, we will be the first to vote something like this down. DI has a long way to go before we are teaching the Bible in Science class. Until that happens, I really don't care what they do.

768 Alouette  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:33:14pm

re: #730 FrogMarch

I'm getting a bumper sticker with a Jesus fish swallowing a Darwin fish swallowing someone from the Discovery Institute.

or maybe a Darwin fish swallowing a Jesus fish swallowing someone from the Discovery Institute swallowing Bobby Jindal.

How about a bumper sticker saying "My Darwin fish can beat up your Jesus fish"?

769 slokat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:33:28pm

re: #753 Cognito

Right.

Tell you what. Pick up your computer, hold it overhead, and let it go.

What's that? You're hesitant?

Wonder why.

Actually, the only reason it falls towards you is the weight of the atmosphere above it is greater than the ability of the atmosphere that exist between you & it to be able to support it.

Still haven't proven gravity, that's just a bouyancy experiment.

770 USBeast  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:33:36pm

Well, you all can continue straining gnats and swallowing camels. I'm going dive into Manchester's "The Last Lion" and then to the land of Nod.

Play nice.

771 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:33:43pm

re: #757 jc59

I think this ties in with the Dawkins misquote debate we had upthread. Where does morality really come from(in a practical sense)? It comes from your fellow humans. If you were black in 1700's Virginia you had less rights. If you were Jewish in 1930's Germany you had less rights. Not because of god or religion but because of your fellow humans.

772 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:34:16pm

re: #719 paxnhymn

careful. Descarte also questioned the scientific method (rightly so) and that is a god to some here as well. it's OK to trash the Christians, but not science...

Science can be trashed, by people such as creationists and islamists. But science is science because it encourages the challenge of presumption. Tell me where the challenge of presumption is a part of the cults of creation and islam, and I'll see where we connect the dots.

Good luck.

773 Thanos  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:34:18pm

re: #745 Sharmuta

I would really think that some of you who prefer LGF to focus on the islamic threat sneeking it's way into our culture would be more focused on dealing with the creationists getting bamboozled by the islamists.

Perhaps instead of focusing on evolution, some of you could educate these groups towards the islamist threat, who is using them to promote islamic creationism. I thought the lessons of vlaams belang taught us that our enemy's enemy was not necessarily our friend. Looks like the creationists haven't learned that.

I agree Sharm, it was thoroughly shocking to see the Sharia Creationist site linked by several YEC/ Anti-Jihad sites.

/didn't they look at Harun's sidebar?

774 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:34:26pm

re: #769 slokat

Actually, the only reason it falls towards you is the weight of the atmosphere above it is greater than the ability of the atmosphere that exist between you & it to be able to support it.

Still haven't proven gravity, that's just a bouyancy experiment.

Science wasn't your strongest subject, was it?

775 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:35:03pm

re: #767 ArcherB

Then you are a fool, as your co-religionists are undermining you by allowing themselves to get used by the very people who are flying planes into buildings.

776 Cognito  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:35:36pm

re: #769 slokat

Actually, the only reason it falls towards you is the weight of the atmosphere above it is greater than the ability of the atmosphere that exist between you & it to be able to support it.

Still haven't proven gravity, that's just a bouyancy experiment.

And I suppose the Earth circles the Sun because of the atmosphere 'above' it?

777 slokat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:35:39pm

And I'm not playing word games, gravity is one of the few things that we can't prove scientifically. It is still magic as far as scientific theory is concerned.

778 Mr Pancakes  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:35:59pm

I'm agnostic, I really don't care one way or the other. If my daughter who is 9 got exposed to 5 million RADS of ID in school, it would be nothing in comparison to her mom and grandma (from Mexico) pounding Catholicism down her throat. Mom and grandma don't know it, but I keep her grounded with a wink and a nod..... she'll be fine.

779 Thanos  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:36:21pm

re: #767 ArcherB

Well, I haven't seen an Internet videos of Creationists beheading anyone or flying planes into buildings.

I go to church and trust me, we will be the first to vote something like this down. DI has a long way to go before we are teaching the Bible in Science class. Until that happens, I really don't care what they do.

No but I've quotes of Rushdoony and other Dominionist/ Christian Reconstructionists call for stoning adulterers, gays, blasphemers, and children who strike their parents.

780 MPH  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:37:32pm

re: #711 Thanos

There you go again.

"Aetheists can't have morals, the world must be Nietschzean if there isn't a god, if you believe in evolution, you can't believe in god"

A more concise version of what you said?

Speaking from experience -- I think it is the fear of the unknown beyond our mortal lives that drives men to let emotionally driven concepts override their brains.

781 rawmuse  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:37:55pm

re: #777 slokat

The recent studies on Dark Matter are very interesting as well. It seems like there is not enough of it, and no one knows why.

782 slokat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:38:25pm

re: #774 Occasional Reader

Science wasn't your strongest subject, was it?

Actually, I excel in physics, engineering & math. It's why I seldom talk biology on these threads.

783 wolfie  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:38:41pm

re: #715 Salamantis

That's what is meant by the 1st Amendment. The US shall neither prohibit any kind of religious worship, nor shall it privilege any religion(s) over any other(s).

"Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion."
The federal government will neither establish a national church nor disestablish a state church. (Mass, e.g., had one until well into the 19th c.)

"nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof."
The federal government will not make laws prohibiting, say, the Catholic Mass in Maryland.

784 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:38:55pm

re: #532 Killgore Trout

re: #515 Kreuzueber Halbmond

"In God We Trust".

I have no problem with that on our money. I have no problem with "under god" in our pledge of allegiance. I have no problem with the ten Commandments in courthouses and I have no problem with sitting through grace at someone's dinner table but keep your fucking religion out of my science!

For the record, I have never advocated inserting religion into the teaching of evolutionary science. Next time leave out the word "your".

785 slokat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:39:02pm

re: #776 Cognito

And I suppose the Earth circles the Sun because of the atmosphere 'above' it?

Angular momentum is a completely different topic.

786 sojerofgod  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:39:25pm

re: #755 Occasional Reader

No no no! didn't say that, Perhaps you conflate. The eugenics movement at the turn of the (last) century was the darling of most of the elite in science and universities all over the west. They held regular meetings to discuss that very thing. Margaret Sanger was an early adopter of this creed, and no less that the supreme court institutionalized it in Buck V Bell
The actual quote was "Three generations of imbeciles are enough."

My point being, science can be no better than the beliefs of the scientists.
Before you all jump me as being some rabid ID-er, I don't know anything about it, and care less.

787 Dan G.  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:39:46pm

re: #769 slokat

Actually, the only reason it falls towards you is the weight of the atmosphere above it is greater than the ability of the atmosphere that exist between you & it to be able to support it.

Still haven't proven gravity, that's just a bouyancy experiment.

Oops, you used gravity to try and disprove gravity.

788 MPH  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:40:25pm

re: #730 FrogMarch

I'm getting a bumper sticker with a Jesus fish swallowing a Darwin fish swallowing someone from the Discovery Institute.

or maybe a Darwin fish swallowing a Jesus fish swallowing someone from the Discovery Institute swallowing Bobby Jindal.

I'm getting a Jesus fish with the word Obama inside instead.

789 medaura18586  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:40:34pm

Charles,

I have been following these threads in lurking mode, but this time I’d like to contribute to the discussion while the thread is still relatively young. Below are a few points I find worth addressing:

1) Some defensive creationists, feeling intimidated in the arena of open discussion, have insinuated themselves to be the critical leverage holders of LittleGreenFootballs’ popularity and influence. They have hinted at your site’s supposedly falling traffic to warn you against ‘turning off your base’. Not that I think you post anything here with any preoccupation with ‘popularity’, or that you should, but as far as ‘popularity’ per se goes, I am convinced that contrary to the bitter contentions of these disgruntled posters, you are actually doing yourself and LGF a great favor.

By letting it be known that intellectual Talibans of all and any religious denominations are not welcome, you might be turning away Young/Flat Earth creationists, but you are also opening the door to the much larger and influential demographic of those concerned with the advances of Radical Islam and the corruption of American institutions, but who would not be caught alive associating themselves with Christian/Jewish fundamentalists.

2) You have been passionately hammering the perfectly valid point that acceptance of evolution and belief in God are not and do not have to be mutually exclusive positions. There is a reason this point is not going through well with Creationists though.

For many of these people, their religion is pivotal to their 'sense of life'. You can admire the life of Jesus Christ and his teachings, but you are not a Christian unless you recognize him as your God and savior. And there would be no plausible reason to believe that Jesus was the son of God, unless events related to his birth, life and death “fulfilled” the prophecies laid out in the Old Testament. Those ‘prophecies’ would be irrelevant unless the Old Testament holds some great epistemological authority over how the Universe came to be, what Man’s role in it is, and what God has in plan for Mankind.

It is a domino effect, and if the literal authority of Biblical scripture collapses in Creationists’ minds in order to make room for the findings of science which contradict said scripture, their entire belief system could end up in tatters. Evolutionary science invalidates Creationists’ traditional beliefs about the origins of life, and modern physics pushes God out of the picture since at least a few milliseconds after the Big Bang.

Of course it is possible to accept these scientific findings while holding on to a metaphysical notion of a broad-sense God, but for many of these Creationists, such a constrained image of God would be useless. The Bible is their paramount source of ethics, and they feel themselves threatened by a moral void whenever their dogmas are challenged. This is why insisting that belief in evolution is not mutually exclusive with belief in God will not get you very far with these fundamentalists.

790 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:40:57pm

re: #773 Thanos

That was really shocking.

And thanks- I have a lot of respect for you, so for me to get a ding from Thanos is an honor.

791 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:41:04pm

re: #777 slokat

And I'm not playing word games, gravity is one of the few things that we can't prove scientifically. It is still magic as far as scientific theory is concerned.

I'd say we're pretty far down the road of accepting the gravitational pull of mass as a given. But you are welcome to test that by leaping without a parachute into the Grand Canyon anytime you wish.

As far as the dense soul that thinks that density or lack thereof affects the velocity of fall but not necessarily gravity, I don't know what to say.

I'm speechless about that.

792 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:41:11pm

re: #782 slokat

Actually, I excel in physics, engineering & math.

Oh, yeah, we can see that.

[cough]

793 marjoriemoon  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:41:16pm

Newton's "theories" have not been proven or disproven, neither are the incorrect or inaccurate. They are incomplete. Newton based his laws on an immutable universe when we now know that the universe is expanding. The theory of gravity can then be re-evaluated or re-defined, not stricken from the record.

Einstein's research was based on an expanding universe and we have a much different science from him than from Newton. For instance, Newton believed that if the sun burned out, the Earth would instantly fly off on a tangent. Einstein believed that isn't so, that it would take the time of the speed of light from the sun to the Earth, coming along gravitational waves, for the gravitational pull to drop away, not instantly. Re-evaulated.

794 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:41:49pm

re: #787 Dan G.

Oops, you used gravity to try and disprove gravity.

That's really heavy, man. ;)

795 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:42:40pm

re: #554 littleO

Sal: from the creationist in texas post:
"high, but imperfect copying fidelity" as a discription of Dna properties. Isn't that like saying that there is some kind of 'intelligence in DNA?

Sal: No, it's not. All it means is that the chemical process is efficient, but not flawless. btw, do you even know what the basic building blocks of DNA are? FYI, they are adenine, guanine (these two bind together to form purine), cytosine and thymine (these two bond together to form pyrimidine). It's a binary system, just like computer memory is.

Of course, we both know that can't happen. So, that is where the scientific proposal for intelligent design came from.

Sal: Actually, umm, no. It's not a scientific proposal; the name 'intelligent design' was a PR propaganda moncker dreamed up by the Disco Institute flacks in order to sell their religious doctrines as science.

Oh, by the way, you are by far the authority on the subject. I feel that you need to step outside the lab sometimes and look at the building.

Sal: I spend days at a time wilderness camping; it helps me to recharge my spiritual batteries and to reconnect with this natural world into which I evolved and in which I belong.

At least, though, you don't argue that some evangelical preacher sprouted the idea of ID from the pulpit one Sunday morning.

Sal: No; the authors were in Disco Institute offices, most likely.

796 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:43:02pm

re: #791 really grumpy big dog Johnson

As far as the dense soul that thinks that density or lack thereof affects the velocity of fall but not necessarily gravity, I don't know what to say.

Yep, and the Earth revolves around the Sun purely because of angular momentum, apparently. Hey... why is it angular, anyway? Oh, never mind... gravity is bunk!

797 nyc redneck  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:43:12pm

re: #751 ploome hineni

artfully worded

/anyone see Obama say that? where the hell does he get that phrase?

his handlers. the messiah doesn't lie or deceive or flip-flop. he recalibrates.
i bet jon cary is p.o'ed he missed out on that clever word.

798 Thanos  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:43:19pm

re: #790 Sharmuta

That was really shocking.

And thanks- I have a lot of respect for you, so for me to get a ding from Thanos is an honor.

Well, I'm just as confused as the rest, so don't overate it, but thanks kindly for the compliment.

799 slokat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:43:26pm

re: #787 Dan G.

Oops, you used gravity to try and disprove gravity.

Should've said mass... but I was explaining bouyancy, not disproving gravity.

;)

800 ggt  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:43:56pm
801 jc59  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:44:48pm

re: #771 Killgore Trout

What I'm trying to say is that concepts such as human equality are culturally derived. Many of our notions regarding what is right or wrong are not the same as other cultures' notions--at least not necessarily.

The roots of the concept of equality, for example, seem to me more a product of the influence of Christianity than of, say, Greek Civilization.

802 Thanos  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:44:50pm

re: #794 Sharmuta

That's really heavy, man. ;)

A statment with true gravitas.

803 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:45:23pm

re: #789 medaura18586

It's like Henry Morris said:

"When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data."

804 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:45:33pm

re: #799 slokat

Should've said mass.

Uh, no, you were right (partly... very partly) the first time. Buoyancy is due to relative weights. And weight is due to...

805 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:45:40pm

re: #556 yehoshua

Mentioning God or Creationism in school does not establish any religion. Belief in evolution is as much of a religion as belief in God.

Mentioning ID in high school science class brings up untestable religious doctrines where they do not belong.

People don't have to believe in evolution; unlike with ID, there IS plenty of evidence for evolutionary theory, so people can be reasonably ceetain of its soundness and validity.

806 ArcherB  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:45:43pm

re: #775 Sharmuta

Then you are a fool, as your co-religionists are undermining you by allowing themselves to get used by the very people who are flying planes into buildings.

I find little comparison between what Muslim extremists have done and what ID'ers want to do.

Until they break the law, the Creationist people are free to do whatever they want to do. When I see them cutting off heads and such, I'll get worried. But for now, let them say what they wish. I served so that they could have a freedom of religion to believe what they want and a freedom of speech so they could talk about it (and so you could call them and me idiots... it's all good).

Like I tried so hard to get across in the last thread (God help us), I'm not going to silence them, no matter how unpopular their positions are. I took an oath to defend the Constitution and I will honor that oath. That means defending the first amendment rights of people I don't agree with.

But rest assured, the day they bring a Bible to a public school science class is the day I fight just as hard to get it and them out as their actions would be violating the Constitution rights of others... and well, there's that oath thing.

807 Dan G.  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:45:54pm

re: #799 slokat

So, why does an entity with fewer mass containing particles than one with more end up on top?

And why elliptical orbits? How does density factor into that?

808 Salem  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:45:57pm

re: #802 Thanos

A statment with true gravitas.

Kind of a downer, though.

809 medaura18586  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:46:19pm

3) These debates are really an eye opener for me, and I hope for many others as well, in gauging who our allies are in the future clashes with Islamofascism. It is easy to assume that we are all in it together, fighting the good fight, and we often end up taking for granted each-others’ motives and shared values. As you found out with GatesOfVienna and their ‘exotic’ connections, the enemies of our enemies are absolutely not necessarily our friends.

I am a very vocal critic of Radical Islam, but I come at it from a secular classically liberal perspective. There are people out there, and sadly, also posters on this site, who consciously or subconsciously look at these current global developments from a Crusader’s perspective. I have noted with a mix of great interest and disgust, how the most anti-Albanian bigots on the Kosovo threads are also the most flaming Creationists, being as ignorant and arrogant about their understanding of evolution in particular and science in general, as they are about the history of the Balkans (By the way, I hope you have been reading Michael Totten’s dispatches from the region).

Islam to them is a homogeneous demonic force to be fought off because it is a false religion, as opposed to their own religion, which is ‘true’ and superior. If they had their way, they would nonetheless insinuate certain agendas in the West which are comparable in principle, if not in scope, with the supremacist ambitions of the radical Muslims. This is where people tend to get all touchy-feely when a certain issue comes up for discussion:
What are American values? What ideology was this country founded upon? What are we all trying to cherish and preserve, that do we ultimately have in common?

Creationists can screech all day long that they love this country, but they only identify with it in so far as they think they can falsely trace its ideological foundations back to their own religion. Few are the ones sufficiently mature and erudite to recognize and live with the fact that America is founded on secular humanist values and a philosophical respect for the individual stemming much more from Classic Greek philosophy and its derivative Western Thought, than from Judeo-Christianity.

810 Radboss  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:47:13pm

re: #711 Thanos

There you go again.

"Aetheists can't have morals, (not logically consistent ones) the world must be Nietschzean if there isn't a god (I never said this, nor do I put it forth as a belief), if you believe in evolution, you can't believe in god (I never said this. Actually, it would make more sense if all evolutionary scientists believed in God. )"

A more concise version of what you said?

No, a terrible summation and poor rebuttal.

811 Intrepid  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:47:24pm

re: #712 Occasional Reader

Kristals beats Whitecastles any day of the week!

812 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:47:34pm

re: #806 ArcherB

You are missing my point. The IDers are being used by the islamists. This doesn't bother you in the slightest?

813 ArcherB  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:48:11pm

re: #779 Thanos

No but I've quotes of Rushdoony and other Dominionist/ Christian Reconstructionists call for stoning adulterers, gays, blasphemers, and children who strike their parents.

If that's true, then they are wrong on every level. The second they throw that first rock, they need to go to jail where the Chaplain can read the Bible to them.

Ye who is without sin....

814 Slumbering Behemoth  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:48:16pm

re: #589 Kulhwch

Well...I know of a couple of ex-gf's of mine that would say I should at least deserve an honorary doctorate.

That's as far as I'll go with that.

815 slokat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:49:48pm

re: #791 really grumpy big dog Johnson

Yes, the equation posted above used the universal given, without trying to explain it.

We can fly, because we understand density & bouyancy.

The only reason that you don't hurtle into space because of the angular momentum inherent in the velocity that you are rotating around the center of the earth, is your relative bouyancy. The atmosphere above you holds you to the ground. You are not a large enough object for the earths gravity to contain, if you weren't held down by all the molecules above you.

816 drmark  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:50:51pm

I love these philisopical discussions. Though not satisfiying they are stimulating.

I prefer music. Here is some creationist ID music if you like

817 medaura18586  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:51:28pm

4) About teaching ‘the controversy’ in schools, I think the solution is just as simple as it is unfortunately implausible: demolish public education. Scores on standardized tests had been continually on the rise since the 19th century until the mid-60s, when they took a dive and have been constantly degenerating ever since.

What happened in the mid-60s? The Department of Education was established. Public education in this country is a disgrace, and I can tell you this as someone who has been raised in a ‘third-world’ ‘Muslim’ country where our schools were in ruins, we barely had bathrooms, no cafeteria, almost no funding, yet I received excellent scientific and secular education, and where the materials covered in grade 8, I found out as an exchange student to not be taught in the US until grade 12.

Not just that, but the reason anyone’s kids are in any public school at all, is that they are forced by the government to pay taxes for funding public education. They can’t claim that money back if instead, they educated their children in private schools (or if they didn’t have any children at all!). How is it moral and American for anyone to be forced to pay for others’ children education?

Here is where the root of all bullshit lies. Then anyone who wanted insanities taught to his/her children, could freely get their wish in a private school, without imposing a disgusting externality on the rest of us. You and others here are rightly pointing out that the ID cronies don’t care about indoctrinating their own kids. That’s been already taken care of. They care about reaching the minds of your kids.

Likewise, leftists do not tend donate to charities. If their hearts really bled over taking care of the bottom 5% who really need a hand up, there would be no fuss to be had as they could mend that hole all by themselves through individual donations to various charities. Yet what they really want is for you and everyone else to be coerced to fund their self-serving ‘welfare’ schemes.

This is an inescapable reality. Whenever government insinuates itself into the ‘regulation’ of what should be a private activity, the ensuing situation is ripe for cooptation by malignant vested interests from all sides of the political spectrum. Institute school choice, and the problem is taken care of.

As long as public education is what it is though, of course such nonsense better stay out of science classrooms. America is a membership club. One of the rules is that religion and government cannot meddle. Gotta live by the rules.

818 Salem  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:51:58pm

Nature works in harmony because it has a Designer, who created us in His own image.

In the same way, gravity can be explained by the fact that the earth sucks.

819 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:52:05pm

re: #815 slokat

The atmosphere above you holds you to the ground. You are not a large enough object for the earths gravity to contain, if you weren't held down by all the molecules above you.

And the air itself stays attached to the Earth because of magic pixies.

820 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:52:12pm

re: #801 jc59

The roots of the concept of equality, for example, seem to me more a product of the influence of Christianity than of, say, Greek Civilization.


I'm not so sure about that. The Jews were religiously vilified in Europe well though the holocaust while Secularists like Darwin spoke out against slavery nearly a hundred years earlier. It seems to me that the Enlightenment was a tempering force on religion in the West.

821 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:52:30pm

re: #579 srmoss

I'm all for giving the ID topic a rest, along with the cheesy articles on missing link discoveries. Newspapers have printed those articles for years where an archaeologist digs up some bones proving that the earth is 300 million years old only to be outdone two months later by another archaeologist claiming that bones he found proves that its 450 million. Nothing wrong for wanting to be recognized but a little intellectual honesty is appreciated.

Here's a person who doesn't even know that life on earth is far older than bones (in fact at least 2 billion years old), and that the earth itself is far older than the life found on it (about 6 billion years old). I guess that these scientifically verified facts are too cheesy for him to learn.

822 jc59  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:53:02pm

re: #809 medaura18586

... Few are the ones sufficiently mature and erudite to recognize and live with the fact that America is founded on secular humanist values and a philosophical respect for the individual stemming much more from Classic Greek philosophy and its derivative Western Thought, than from Judeo-Christianity.

The Arabs had access to Classic Greek philosophy for a long time before it was "rediscovered" in the West. Give the head start, why did freedom, democracy, capitalism and science come to fruition in the West before any other place on the planet?

823 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:53:06pm

re: #818 Salem

Nature works in harmony

What do you mean by that statement, exactly.

To put it another way; what would be a counterexample.

824 Kulhwch  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:54:10pm

re: #745 Sharmuta

I would really think that some of you who prefer LGF to focus on the islamic threat sneeking it's way into our culture would be more focused on dealing with the creationists getting bamboozled by the islamists.

Perhaps instead of focusing on evolution, some of you could educate these groups towards the islamist threat, who is using them to promote islamic creationism. I thought the lessons of vlaams belang taught us that our enemy's enemy was not necessarily our friend. Looks like the creationists haven't learned that.

Sadly, there's no prediction for improvement, either.

}:/     [Especially based on some of the egos on display.]

825 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:54:11pm

re: #581 paxnhymn

so now we link "far right wing fundamentalists" like "Focus on the Family"(err.ok..obviously someone doesn't know a lot about the organization) with Islamic creationsists? Someone has truly gone down the Loo..let's see...Pro-Israel ....wants to see Israel pushed off into the sea....you are spitting in the face on an ally Charles and this is stupid!

Actually, the problem is not us, but them (the ones Charles mentioned)...they're the ones that have made creationist deals with jihadi devils.

826 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:54:33pm

re: #781 rawmuse

The recent studies on Dark Matter are very interesting as well. It seems like there is not enough of it, and no one knows why.

It's unknown matter. If the expansion of the universe is slowing, and I believe the evidence indicates that is the case, then the current theory regarding dark matter doesn't account for that glaring disconsonance.

Some make the huge jump to assume that the universe will expand forever. Then again, iconoclasts like me might presume that our continuing fall into the middle just makes things seem that way.

Whatever, any of those things won't be discovered with any firm consensus for a long time, if ever. And just so creationists can get a thrill, I'm not convinced that the universe is any more important than a single atom on earth. We simply don't know anything beyond a certain distance from our world. People who can define the limits of the universe are false evangelists of scientific dogmatism. I believe in a Creator, and in a science full of wonder that none of us will ever experience in our lives.

It's the quest of man that is of more central importance than the mere lifetime of one or a hundred generations of humankind.

I have a reasonably high degree of oscillation between believing that we will definitely screw that up, or definitely defeat the barriers to our continued existence. But Congress sure makes me worry about the later, at least for the short term.

827 MPH  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:54:49pm

re: #822 jc59

The Arabs had access to Classic Greek philosophy for a long time before it was "rediscovered" in the West. Give the head start, why did freedom, democracy, capitalism and science come to fruition in the West before any other place on the planet?

JESUS! JESUS! JESUS!

828 Slumbering Behemoth  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:54:57pm

re: #597 yochanan

Secularism is now a religion? Really?

829 ArcherB  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:55:10pm

re: #812 Sharmuta

You are missing my point. The IDers are being used by the islamists. This doesn't bother you in the slightest?

Yeah, it bugs me, but it's none of my business until they actually succeed at doing something about it. So far, it's all been talk. Talk about evolution, discussion about the merits of evolution and so on. That's all protected under the first amendment, twice (freedom of religion and speech). I have not seen them succeed at anything that violates the Constitution.

But does it bug me? Sure. That's the price of living in a free society. I bug people all the time. You can vouch for that! In order for me to enjoy the freedom to do things that offends others, I have to be ready to get offended.

Again, the second they violate the Constitution or kill someone, they will be stopped. But as for now, they haven't done anything illegal, no matter how unpopular.

830 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:56:15pm

Good night. I'm floating off to bed.

831 realwest  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:56:19pm

Good evening all y'all - so we're back at it again, hey?
I'm afraid I truly don't understand all the fuss going on.
Evolution is a scientific theory - not a "theory" in the same sense of the word as a postulated "idea" but something which has been proven over more than a century of hard work.
Creationism is the concept that a Supreme Being designed all that occurred here on earth and in the universe and that it was designed and implemented in six days. Those of us who believe in God and in Jesus Christ believe that God was that supreme being and that Jesus Christ was his only son, but don't necessarily believe that God (our chosen name for said Supreme Being) created all in six days. Indeed, it is my personal belief that God started everything and that evolution was His way of developing Life as we currently know it. At a certain point in time, realizing that humans had not lived up to His expectations, God sent Jesus to die for our sins and to teach us the way to a better, more righteous life.
That one form of Christianity - creationism - or any other form of Christianity or any other religion, which requires a faith in something that cannot be scientifically proven, should be taught in our Public Schools is anathema to me. If we say Creationism can be taught in Public Schools, then why not Islam (with "Allah" playing the role of the Supreme Being) or any or all other religions as well?
Now I do understand that some folks think Evolution is just an unproven scientific postulate, which has yet to be completely proven by anyone.
Even if that were true, rigorous scientific standards certainly yield results akin to Evolution than they do to Creationism or any other faith based belief system.
And I don't think any "religion" should be taught in public schools, period.

832 slokat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 8:56:52pm

re: #807 Dan G.

So, why does an entity with fewer mass containing particles than one with more end up on top?

And why elliptical orbits? How does density factor into that?

Orbits are momentum v/s force. Observed calculated: we still put a place holder in the equation for force, because we don't know what it actually is.

The first question - Helium has less mass than H20, right?

Take the too bodies explanation to the extremes, which would have more attraction to a body the size of a planet; a hel