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150th Anniversary of Theory of Evolution

Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 5:14:45 pm PDT

One hundred fifty years ago today, a paper was read to the Linnaean Society of London, and the scientific theory of evolution was born.

Darwin was still working on his magnum opus when in June 1858 he received a letter from an English naturalist working in Malaysia. Alfred Russel Wallace was young and brash. When he conceived of natural selection, he didn’t plan a 10-volume lifework. He just dashed off a quick paper on the subject and mailed it to the author of The Voyage of the Beagle, asking him to refer it for publication if it seemed good enough.

Darwin was crestfallen. Was he about to lose credit for two decades of work? Wallace had suggested that Darwin forward the paper to Scottish geologist Charles Lyell. Along with English botanist Joseph Hooker, Lyell was one of a small handful of people Darwin had shown early drafts of his own work on natural selection.

Darwin wrote to Lyell and Hooker, and they arranged for a joint paper to be read at the forthcoming meeting of the Linnaean Society of London. (Founded in 1788 and named for Carl Linnaeus, the Swedish scientist who devised the binomial system of taxonomy, it is the world’s oldest active biological society.)

Neither Darwin nor Wallace attended the meeting. Wallace was still in Malaysia. Darwin was at home with his wife mourning the death of their 19-month-old son just three days earlier.

And fundamentalists of one stripe or another have been battling against it ever since. Now they’re at it in New Zealand.

A Christian group promoting intelligent design theory over evolution has sent teaching material to schools that critics say is religious propaganda and sloppy pseudoscience.

The Education Ministry says the unsanctioned material does not breach the Education Act and there are no plans to ban its distribution. But officials stress the theory of evolution underpins the science curriculum and schools have a responsibility to teach theories that are subject to accepted scientific scrutiny.

Focus on the Family has sent The Privileged Planet CD and booklet to 400 high schools, asking that they be made available to science teachers and school libraries.

Waikato University biological sciences senior lecturer Alison Campbell says the material champions creationism - the belief that God created the world as described in the Book of Genesis - claiming the universe is too perfect to have been produced by chance so must be the work of an intelligent designer. It represented a religious viewpoint, she said, not a scientific one, and had no place in science classrooms. “It’s an underhand way of getting creationist material into schools.” ...

Focus on the Family’s executive director Tim Sisarich said the material was intended to expose pupils to an alterative theory of cosmology.

“We’re a Christian organisation so we believe that God made the planet and God made the cosmos ... Science takes a theory and tries to establish it as the truth, and that’s all this is.”

An interesting aspect of the recent resurrection of creationism as “intelligent design” is the collaboration between far-right US Christian groups like the Institute for Creation Research and the Discovery Institute, and the radical Islamic Turkish creationist group led by the notorious Harun Yahya: Evolution Deceit. com - This website is the interactive version of the book ‘Evolution Deceit’ by HARUN YAHYA.

Professor Michael P. Girouard: In his speech, “Is it Possible for Life to Emerge by Coincidences?”, Michael Girouard, a professor of biology at Southern Louisiana University, explained through various examples the complexity of proteins, the basic units of life, and concluded that they could only have come into existence as a result of skilled design.

Dr Edward Boudreaux: In his speech, “The Design in Chemistry”, Edward Boudreaux, a professor of chemistry at the University of New Orleans, noted that some chemical elements must have been deliberately arranged by creation in order for life to exist.

Professor Carl Fliermans: A widely-known scientist in the USA and a microbiology professor at Indiana University conducting a research on “the neutralisation of chemical wastes by bacteria” supported by the US Department of Defence, Carl Fliermans refuted evolutionist claims at the microbiological level.

Professor Edip Keha: A professor of biochemistry, Edip Keha, was the only Turkish speaker of the conference. He presented basic information on the cell and stressed through evidence that the cell could only have come into being as a result of perfect creation.

Professor David Menton: A professor of anatomy at Washington University, David Menton, in a speech that was accompanied by a very interesting computer display, examined the differences between the anatomies of the feathers of birds and the scales of reptiles, thus proving the invalidity of the hypothesis that birds evolved from reptiles.

Professor Duane Gish: Famous evolutionist expert Professor Gish, in his speech entitled “The Origin of Man”, refuted the thesis of man’s evolution from apes.

ICR President Professor John Morris: Professor Morris, the president of the Institute for Creation Research and a famous geologist, gave a speech on the ideological and philosophical commitments lying behind evolution. He further explained that this theory has been turned into a dogma and that its defenders believe in Darwinism with a religious fervour.

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1544 comments

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1 least  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:16:14pm

I do believe this post will garner some comments.

2 the jinxmedic  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:18:24pm

They are not mutually exclusive concepts.

3 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:18:36pm
These conferences were enhanced by a variety of presentations and video projections. The audience included not only Muslims, but also Christians, Jews and people of other faiths.

Politics Evolution makes for strange bedfellows.

4 markx  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:18:39pm

Pass.

5 BlueCanuck  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:19:20pm

Congratulations Charles Darwin for expanding Human thought.

/and on that note I am out of here before the silliness begins.

6 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:20:19pm
An interesting aspect of the recent resurrection of creationism as “intelligent design” is the collaboration between far-right US Christian groups like the Institute for Creation Research and the Discovery Institute, and the radical Islamic Turkish creationist group led by the notorious Harun Yahya


I suspect suspect that's really going piss off some folks. Dramatic exits to begin in 5...4...3...

7 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:20:38pm

re: #4 markx

Fail.

8 itellu3times  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:21:16pm

19th century science, against the timeless power of God!

Next you'll be touting the words of some 18th century rebels, against the educated judgements of twenty-first century judges!

Science and progress, those were ideas that Hitler and Stalin used, we should have nothing to do with them, we're all liberals now!

/does this kool-aid make my tongue turn purple?

9 Maine's Michael  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:21:18pm
10 allan5oh  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:21:28pm

Canada's birthday as well!

141!

11 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:22:15pm

re: #5 BlueCanuck

Congratulations Charles Darwin for expanding Human thought.

/and on that note I am out of here before the silliness begins.

And I'll not be far behind you. I just want to see how long it takes for ... yawwwn ... you know, to get here.

12 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:22:15pm

re: #10 allan5oh

Congratulations.

13 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:22:49pm

re: #10 allan5oh

Canada's birthday as well!

141!

Happy Birthday, Canada!

14 Sizzlack  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:22:50pm

I had no idea Darwin looked so much like Santa

15 LeonidasOfSparta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:22:56pm

and their off with evolutionists leading by a nose or was that a hare? or even a nosehair....

with that sound of the starting gate I am off (or half-off)

16 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:23:07pm

Thank you, Charles, for taking this courageous and principled stand.

I have to decline to participate in tonight's civil war spirited exchange. I am very tired and since I had a heart attack last month I really think a nap would be a good idea.

17 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:23:15pm

Congratulations to DanThePainter for being the first to ding this thread.

18 ornery elephant  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:23:34pm

re: #10 allan5oh

Canada's birthday as well!

141!

Now THAT's A Birthday worth celebrating!

Happy Canada Day to all Canadian Lizards. Thank you for the sacrifice of your young men and women in Afghanistan.

19 Sour Grapes  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:23:35pm

God is very happy with Darwin.

20 DistantThunder  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:23:45pm

It's the S & M thread.

21 spidly  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:24:20pm

oy....

22 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:24:21pm

heeeerrrreeee moby moby moby
SOOOEEEEEE PIG!

23 experiencedtraveller  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:24:24pm

Ninety one years ago today the Battle of the Somme began.

I hope we have politically evolved since 1 July 1917.

24 drmark  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:24:36pm

natural selection and mutation working over millions of years produced you from an amoeba.

25 DeliLama  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:25:18pm

More impressive to me than the theory of evolution was Darwin's amazing observations. The Voyage of the Beagle is an amazing travel adventure story that should be mandatory reading for anyone interested in science. Darwin has been an inspiration to me for years and I've often asked myself "What Would Darwin Do" without intending to be funny.
Voyage of the Beagle

26 akak  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:25:21pm

They are to blame.

27 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:25:25pm

re: #14 Sizzlack

He's a pretty good dancer too

28 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:25:33pm

re: #23 experiencedtraveller

Ninety one years ago today the Battle of the Somme began.

I hope we have politically evolved since 1 July 1917.

A notable date, to be sure!

29 J'accuzzi  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:25:40pm

Those yelling loudest on both sides are trying to ignore their own self doubts and general ignorance.

30 sngnsgt  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:26:12pm

I know a few chickenhawks people who musta' been hatched!

31 experiencedtraveller  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:26:25pm

re: #23 experiencedtraveller

Ninety two years ago today the Battle of the Somme began.

I hope we have politically evolved since 1 July 1917 1916.

32 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:26:30pm
33 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:26:58pm

re: #24 drmark

natural selection and mutation working over millions of years produced you from an amoeba.

Only some of us. Now there are a couple of teenagers in the neighborhood ....

34 SasquatchOnSteroids  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:27:17pm

150 years, WOOT.
A lot has changed since then.

35 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:27:49pm

re: #16 Shiplord Kirel

Rest up.
Get well.
*prayers*

36 Miss Trixie  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:28:09pm

re: #18 ornery elephant

Now THAT's A Birthday worth celebrating!

Happy Canada Day to all Canadian Lizards. Thank you for the sacrifice of your young men and women in Afghanistan.

Thanks, luv *mwah* It was a picture-perfect summer day to celebrate today in Canada'a capital. Outstanding! :D

37 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:28:16pm
38 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:28:34pm

re: #2 the jinxmedic

They are not mutually exclusive concepts.


Right, but when people cling to the Genesis story, all rational discussion is over.
science does not defeat faith, but clinging to preposterous stories does not miove the discussion.

39 DeliLama  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:28:35pm

...that being said (in #25), I also have great sympathy for people who don't want their religious lives disrupted by the fact of evolution (the theory is only the explanation for why it happens). Darwin was a bible quoting Creationist when he stepped aboard the HMS Beagle. What he discovered was painful to him and he knew the destruction it would cause.

It's a shame that Christianity chose to anchor itself partially to something that science would steamroll over mercilessly. It can't be helped.

40 jaynumber13  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:29:52pm

Hey, look...everyone becomes a biologist when the evolution/creationism debate comes 'round the corner.

Since I am not even an amateur scientist, so my opinion means nothing. Neither does anyone's here. Yeah, even Charles'.

These posts are ridiculous.

41 DesertSage  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:30:21pm

I still don't see where the controversy is.

Belief in God does not preclude belief in evolution.
Belief in evolution does not preclude belief in God.

Lao Stinky told me so!

42 drmark  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:30:39pm

It is fact.re: #33 pre-Boomer Marine brat

It is fact.It is fact. Maybe you came from Algae instead?

43 jaynumber13  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:30:45pm

re: #40 jaynumber13

PIMF

44 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:30:55pm

More on The Institute for Creation Research

The ICR was formed by Henry M. Morris in 1972 following an organizational split with the Creation Science Research Center.

Henry Morris

Controversy and criticism

Not cited here is the hoax of the dinosaur with human footprint photograph, which Morris later acknowledged as fraudulent, but pictures of which remain in subsequent printings of his book The Genesis Flood.

45 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:31:26pm

re: #40 jaynumber13

I find them interesting. I've learned a lot on these threads.

46 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:31:34pm

re: #39 DeliLama

It's a shame that Christianity chose to anchor itself partially to something that science would steamroll over mercilessly.

Some parts of Christianity, if you please.

47 GregInSeattle  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:32:54pm

God created the Universe and everything in it. He evidently uses "evolution" to get life where he wants it to go. Most of Genesis is a parable of the human condition, not a scientific text.

48 Miss Trixie  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:33:02pm

*wince*

I can't take these ID debates and how it reduces good folks to nastiness.

I'm outta here.

49 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:33:07pm

re: #42 drmark

What did slugs come from? Those teenagers closely resemble slugs in habits.

50 eon  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:33:13pm
(Professor Morris) further explained that this theory has been turned into a dogma and that its defenders believe in Darwinism with a religious fervor.

Am I allowed to believe in the Second Law of Thermodynamics with a "religious fervor"?

Or am I expected to throw it under the bus the next time somebody claims he's developed an "over-unity" motor?

/Aka a "perpetual motion machine", i.e. one that puts out more energy than it takes in with greater than 100% mechanical efficiency.

ID, Creationism, and Perpetual Motion all have the same thing in common.

None of them can be proven experimentally. And if you cannot prove it by controlled experiment, it is by definition not scientifically valid.

You can call them "philosophies", or "faiths", or whatever you please. But you may not call them "science".

And the fact that radical Islamists agree with the "Creationists" should give everyone pause.

/How do the Creationists feel about Horbiger's "Eternal Ice" theory, I wonder?


cheers

eon

51 Boogberg  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:33:17pm

re: #1 least

I do believe this post will garner some comments.

500 quatloos say no more than 800 :D

52 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:33:32pm

re: #46 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Yes, some parts of Christianity mostly here in America. They have every intention of not only destroying their religion but also our country in the process.

53 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:34:08pm

re: #47 GregInSeattle

God created the Universe and everything in it. He evidently uses "evolution" to get life where he wants it to go. Most of Genesis is a parable of the human condition, not a scientific text.


You are so correct. It is just a story. Faith hinges on deeper things.

54 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:34:29pm

re: #40 jaynumber13

Since I am not even an amateur scientist, so my opinion means nothing. Neither does anyone's here. Yeah, even Charles'.

Nonsense. This is affecting education in America, and now we see YEC working with islamic creationists. This is something that affects us all when the next generation is unable to carry on the fine American standards in science and technology.

55 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:34:36pm

re: #48 Miss Trixie

*wince*

I can't take these ID debates and how it reduces good folks to nastiness.

I'm outta here.

Coward!
*spit*
/sarc
/ (-:

Pardon me while I go into training for the moby-fest ... er ... feast.

56 DesertSage  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:34:41pm

In fact, I've heard that there are lots of preeminent scientists who have very strong beliefs in God.
And yes, that does include their belief that God created the universe.

So I still don't see the controversy.

57 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:35:03pm

re: #45 Killgore Trout

I find them interesting. I've learned a lot on these threads.

I have too, and since science is one of those things I have no head for at all, these threads are incredibly informative.

I don't know the real people behind some of the comments, but damn, some people registered here are really really smart, knowledgeable people, and without this blog and these threads, I may never have had the pleasure of learning as much as I have recently

People who dismiss the opportunity here are, well - maybe not thinking as straight as they could.

58 drmark  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:35:38pm

re: #41 DesertSage

I still don't see where the controversy is.

Belief in God does not preclude belief in evolution.
Belief in evolution does not preclude belief in God.

Lao Stinky told me so!

The controversy is two religions arguing over who is correct. Both sides with historys that ain't pretty. The religion of Darwin, and the religon of creationism.

59 IslandLibertarian  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:35:40pm

All I'm going to say is that judging by the photograph, fashion HAS evolved considerably. As for the "theory", well it remains just that.
I refuse to join the debate.

Power to the Correct People!
(They let others believe what they like.)

60 DeliLama  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:35:44pm

...just one more thing. I see a lot of smug people siding with Darwin, but remember that what Darwin did was discover something completely at odds with common knowledge based on direct observation and the mentoring by almost no one. Very few people are able to venture out from their accepted world and be able to see the clues and be willing to accept what they find, no matter how much it disrupts everything they know. People on both sides of the political spectrum (but mostly liberals) get all huffy when you bring up something that contradicts what they know.

61 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:36:15pm

re: #52 Killgore Trout

Yes, some parts of Christianity mostly here in America. They have every intention of not only destroying their religion but also our country in the process.

Yes. You are right.

Theocracy is theocracy, no matter who's behind it.

62 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:36:23pm

re: #57 reine.de.tout

It's amazing the things you can learn here. You can ask just about anything and someone here will know something about it.

63 drmark  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:36:49pm

re: #49 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Teenagers are suffering from temporary insanity, somewhat due to hormones..

64 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:37:13pm

re: #57 reine.de.tout

I have too, and since science is one of those things I have no head for at all, these threads are incredibly informative.

I don't know the real people behind some of the comments, but damn, some people registered here are really really smart, knowledgeable people, and without this blog and these threads, I may never have had the pleasure of learning as much as I have recently

People who dismiss the opportunity here are, well - maybe not thinking as straight as they could.


LGF is always an education.

65 ornery elephant  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:37:35pm

re: #52 Killgore Trout

Yes, some parts of Christianity mostly here in America. They have every intention of not only destroying their religion but also our country in the process.

before I do the "good grief" and the :eyeroll: , just wanted to make sure I'm reading that right. You're saying that the U.S.A. is in danger from the threat of Christians?

66 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:37:45pm

It's amazing about these seamy sleaze merchants; the more ya dig, tha more dirt ya find, and ya also find that the roots of these ostensibly separate diseased trees are holding hands underground...just like with the Eurofascists, the US neonazis, and the Paulians. I guess turds of a feather bob together.

67 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:37:47pm

re: #56 DesertSage

In fact, I've heard that there are lots of preeminent scientists who have very strong beliefs in God.
And yes, that does include their belief that God created the universe.

So I still don't see the controversy.

The "controversy" is being perpetuated by a lawyer, of all things. And he doesn't care if America keeps it's position in the world of science, medicine and technology so long as he can convince more people to come to Jesus.

68 Charles  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:37:49pm

YouTube finally fixed that 'crossdomain.xml' problem with embedded videos, by the way.

69 BlueCanuck  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:38:04pm

Way off topic here but who cares, you folks will stay on topic all the way to the bitter end. I have noticed, being on of the regular dead threaders, that when an Evolution/ID thread is posted any subsequent threads are slow, lethargic and missing many of the regulars you usually exchange wit. Now most are battling wits and ending up with nothing. I have strong opinions on this topic but I feel that most people would be offended. So I don't share them. Any way see you all on the dead thread, if you can rip yourselves away from this madness.

70 nyc redneck  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:39:12pm

i'm just wondering if this push to bring i.d. into the realm of science as a legitimate alternative to evolution is a new phenomenon?
(i don't remember hearing abt. this much, if at all, until recently.)
if it is just being put forth now, i wonder why. why at this point?
i wonder if it is tied to the spread of islam?

71 jaunte  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:39:25pm

re: #54 Sharmuta

You're right, the deceptive politics behind this issue should be a concern to everyone.

72 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:39:27pm

re: #63 drmark

Teenagers are suffering from temporary insanity, somewhat due to hormones..

It's not just hormones. It's ego, too. Ego and a popular culture which makes heros of the rebels (even the rebels who have no cause.)

73 Maui Girl  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:40:10pm

There is becoming a distinct difference between the theory of evolution, which generally isn't disputed by most Christians and Darwinism. It's the point of "origin" that has Darwinians knickers in a twist. Read Dinesh Souza's book, "What's so great about Christianity?" It's contents will surprise even self-proclaimed atheists. And no, it is not a "religious" book! READ IT.

74 vapig  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:40:29pm

yawn....I guess islam has been defeated and we can now settle down to the mundane.....

/ petulance off

I guess this topic is saved for those of us in the evenings so we see the same thing every night

// petulance really off and I'm outta here too

75 DesertSage  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:40:30pm

re: #58 drmark

The controversy is two religions arguing over who is correct. Both sides with historys that ain't pretty. The religion of Darwin, and the religon of creationism.

I don't see it that way. They are entirely two separate things.

One is a science and one is a belief system. It doesn't make one better then the other, and one doesn't prove the other wrong. There is no dichotomy between believing in God and believing the scientific facts of evolution. One doesn't cancel out the other.

76 drmark  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:40:35pm

re: #72 pre-Boomer Marine brat


Agreed

77 Salem  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:41:03pm

Well, I know some down-dingers who can eat me.

78 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:41:52pm

re: #58 drmark

The controversy is two religions arguing over who is correct. Both sides with historys that ain't pretty. The religion of Darwin, and the religon of creationism.

Evolutionary theory isn't a religion, it's science, and valid science at that (just ask the Catholic church, or about 12,000 US clergy, if you don't believe the scientists themselves).

That's why evolutionary theory belongs in public high school science classes, and the PR-propaganda-renamed creationism hawked by the Disco Institute, intelligent design, does not.

79 wolfie  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:41:56pm

re: #46 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Some parts of Christianity, if you please.

Looking at it from a catholic (all times and places) perspective, it's a very tiny segment of Christianity.

80 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:41:57pm
81 Maui Girl  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:42:16pm

re: #39 DeliLama


Quite frankly, the opposite is happening. Like I said in another post, read Dinesh Souza's book. Enlightening to say the least.

82 PeaceBeUponHim  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:42:20pm

Though I'm an atheist who strongly believes in evolution, Charles you sure seem to be stirring the pot with this stuff lately.

83 czekmark  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:42:51pm

Darwin is g-d! Let's all bow down and kiss his ass feet! Oops can't do that he's dead. Kiss his tombstone?

84 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:43:11pm

re: #70 nyc redneck

i'm just wondering if this push to bring i.d. into the realm of science as a legitimate alternative to evolution is a new phenomenon?

No- it has quite a history. It really picked up steam in the 1950s with Henry Morris's book The Genesis Flood. If you'd like to read more on the history of this battle, I suggest Saving Darwin: How to Be a Christian and Believe in Evolution. He not only covers the history of this controversy, but gives thoughtful arguments both scientifically and theologically to NOT support ID. And- he's a former YEC himself.

85 Charles  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:43:34pm

re: #73 Maui Girl

There is becoming a distinct difference between the theory of evolution, which generally isn't disputed by most Christians and Darwinism. It's the point of "origin" that has Darwinians knickers in a twist. Read Dinesh Souza's book, "What's so great about Christianity?" It's contents will surprise even self-proclaimed atheists. And no, it is not a "religious" book! READ IT.

Victor Davis Hanson has some issues with Dinesh D'Souza:

[Link: article.nationalreview.com...]

86 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:44:00pm

re: #65 ornery elephant

before I do the "good grief" and the :eyeroll: , just wanted to make sure I'm reading that right. You're saying that the U.S.A. is in danger from the threat of Christians?

(Leaping in ahead of Killgore)

I think so -- to the extent that the likes of the Discovery Institute can suceed in creating (no pun intended) a "national religion". That's what the Wedge Document calls for.

To be specific, ornery, it's not a threat "from Christians", but "from certain Christians".

87 Boogberg  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:44:29pm

re: #69 BlueCanuck

I have strong opinions on this topic but I feel that most people would be offended.

So what? Let's hear 'em. :D

88 DesertSage  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:44:33pm

re: #77 Salem

Well, I know some down-dingers who can eat me.

Salem, you've down dinged me dozens of times (and up dinged me once)....and I still like you. Don't take it personally.

89 drmark  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:45:07pm

re: #75 DesertSage

Darwinists claiming things and believing things in spite of the evidence gives fervor to the creationist side.

Claiming "Science" while being most unscientific just doese'nt cut it.

90 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:45:17pm
91 Tigger2005  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:45:23pm

From "The Killer Angels":

Richard "Lo" Armistead: "You may be able to persuade me that you are descended from 'a ape.' You might even be able to convince me that I am descended from 'a ape.' But I challenge you to show me the Southern gentleman who will claim that Robert E. Lee is descended from 'a ape!'"

Gen. Longstreet (sarcastically): "Your logic is unassailable, Lo."

92 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:45:35pm
93 zmdavid  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:46:18pm

re: #86 pre-Boomer Marine brat

To be specific, ornery, it's not a threat "from Christians", but "from certain Christians".


Uncertain Christians are harmless?
/just kidding

94 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:46:48pm

re: #73 Maui Girl

There is becoming a distinct difference between the theory of evolution, which generally isn't disputed by most Christians and Darwinism. It's the point of "origin" that has Darwinians knickers in a twist. Read Dinesh Souza's book, "What's so great about Christianity?" It's contents will surprise even self-proclaimed atheists. And no, it is not a "religious" book! READ IT.

Sal: I guess you didn't see what Charles found out about Ol' Dinesh:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

95 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:46:48pm

re: #79 wolfie

Looking at it from a catholic (all times and places) perspective, it's a very tiny segment of Christianity.

I suspect you're right. At least, I certainly hope so.

96 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:47:03pm

re: #11 pre-Boomer Marine brat

And I'll not be far behind you. I just want to see how long it takes for ... yawwwn ... you know, to get here.

Who?

97 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:47:29pm

re: #65 ornery elephant

You're saying that the U.S.A. is in danger from the threat of Christians?


If they succeed in undermining science education in this country (which I don't hink they will) they are a far greater threat that radical Islam. If they succeed we will be a 3rd world country in a few short generations. It would take radical Islam much longer to destroy us.

98 Ringo the Gringo  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:47:44pm

These threads give me deja vu.

99 experiencedtraveller  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:47:50pm

re: #37 buzzsawmonkey

Mademoiselle from Armentieres...hinky dinky parley voo...

100 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:48:00pm

re: #92 buzzsawmonkey

The will to power knows no religion, though it may use any religion as a vehicle.

Hear Hear

101 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:48:03pm

re: #5 BlueCanuck

Congratulations Charles Darwin for expanding Human thought.

/and on that note I am out of here before the silliness begins.


Bwaarrk, book, book, book book

102 DeliLama  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:48:08pm

Everyone's familiar with the photos of an old Charles Darwin, but few people see the young Charles Darwin.

103 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:48:15pm

Damn, Charles, I was trying to quote you, and you beat me to it by quoting yourself! On the ball you are (he opined in his finest Yodaspeak...;~)

104 Charles  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:48:48pm

We haven't even started to get into Rousas Rushdoony yet.

105 Ringo the Gringo  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:49:21pm

re: #104 Charles

What's Rousas Rushdoony?

106 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:50:06pm

I believe if we dismiss, off hand, that God, as Creator of all things, then we will dismiss as easily the Book of Revelation and the how this earth is wrapped up.

107 experiencedtraveller  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:50:27pm

re: #91 Tigger2005

From "The Killer Angels"

Awesome book. It should be required history reading even if it is a work of fiction.

108 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:50:42pm

re: #73 Maui Girl

D'Souza stinks.

109 DesertSage  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:50:48pm

re: #95 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I suspect you're right. At least, I certainly hope so.

I suspect Wolfie is right also. Of all the Christians I've ever met, and all the people of faith I've ever met, only a very small percentage would fall into the category of ID creationists.
Most of them are very intelligent people and humanitarians. So are scientists and biologists.

110 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:51:10pm

re: #96 A Kiwi Infidel

Who?

Whoever "they" were on the ID thread last night. Some of them were the most utterly conceited asses you can imagine. If one called Amy (something-or-other) shows up, click the name-link through to her blog.

/and delouse when you come back

111 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:51:23pm

re: #89 drmark

Darwinists claiming things and believing things in spite of the evidence gives fervor to the creationist side.

Claiming "Science" while being most unscientific just doese'nt cut it.

Funny; I thought that was what the Disco Institute folks were doing...

112 Tigger2005  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:51:53pm

re: #107 experiencedtraveller

Awesome book. It should be required history reading even if it is a work of fiction.

Joshua Chamberlain became one of my personal heroes after I read the book and saw the film. A great American.

113 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:52:10pm

re: #54 Sharmuta

Nonsense. This is affecting education in America, and now we see YEC working with islamic creationists. This is something that affects us all when the next generation is unable to carry on the fine American standards in science and technology.

Nonsense nonsense. The advancement of the filthy kuffar belief system in your science education has nothing to do with the advancement of the truth of Islam in your education system. Nothing at all.
these are not the droids you are looking for
You should refrain from saying such things if you know what is good for you. You have been down-dinged.

114 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:52:31pm

re: #98 Ringo the Gringo

These threads give me deja vu.

I'd rather have (the incomparable) Dejah Thoris.

115 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:52:52pm

re: #77 Salem

Well, I know some down-dingers who can eat me.

Be careful what you wish for.

116 MandyManners  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:52:59pm

re: #113 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

Nonsense nonsense. The advancement of the filthy kuffar belief system in your science education has nothing to do with the advancement of the truth of Islam in your education system. Nothing at all.
these are not the droids you are looking for
You should refrain from saying such things if you know what is good for you. You have been down-dinged.

What's up, ShortShit?

117 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:53:05pm

re: #104 Charles

I have no idea what that means but I look forward to it.

118 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:53:05pm
ICR President Professor John Morris: Professor Morris, the president of the Institute for Creation Research and a famous geologist, gave a speech on the ideological and philosophical commitments lying behind evolution. He further explained that this theory has been turned into a dogma and that its defenders believe in Darwinism with a religious fervour.

John Morris is the son of the late Henry Morris- whose book The Genesis Flood resorted to lies, misquotes and out and out fraud to promote it's young earth creationism. How nice to see the son of a fraud working with islamic creationists.

119 BlueCanuck  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:53:28pm

re: #87 Boogberg

So what? Let's hear 'em. :D

Couldn't resist replying. ;)

I grew up in a strongly creationist home and church. I also went to school where I learned science and the scientific method. I started to question a lot that I was learning at home and at church. It didn't help that the people in my church were some of the biggest hypocrites going. Needless to say that when I was old enough I stopped going to church. Especially that particular church. That may have influenced my beliefs. I still believe in god, and as I always say from what I have learned in science that god himself is a mathematician. Nuff said. No I am really out of here. BBIAW. Got stuff to do and work to prepare for.

120 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:53:47pm
121 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:53:49pm

re: #110 pre-Boomer Marine brat


Thanks for the warning, their are a few, indeed, who in their percieved self-righteousness, do not make for very good witnesses.

122 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:53:58pm

re: #102 DeliLama

Everyone's familiar with the photos of an old Charles Darwin, but few people see the young Charles Darwin.

I thought that it would be a photo of a monkey. Now that would have been funny!

123 Irish Rose  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:54:07pm

re: #74 vapig

yawn....I guess islam has been defeated and we can now settle down to the mundane.....

/ petulance off

I guess this topic is saved for those of us in the evenings so we see the same thing every night

// petulance really off and I'm outta here too

I see at least three other topics.

And the lounge is open... why suffer alone in silent boredom when you can chat chat chat chittychat chat?

124 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:54:12pm

re: #118 Sharmuta

John Morris is the son of the late Henry Morris- whose book The Genesis Flood resorted to lies, misquotes and out and out fraud to promote it's young earth creationism. How nice to see the son of a fraud working with islamic creationists.


Interesting.

125 Ringo the Gringo  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:54:12pm

re: #117 Killgore Trout

I have no idea what that means but I look forward to it.

That makes two of us.

126 Charles  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:54:16pm

re: #105 Ringo the Gringo

What's Rousas Rushdoony?

The father of Christian Reconstructionism and a long time John Bircher. I believe he died a few years ago.

127 drmark  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:54:24pm

re: #111 Salamantis

They do it too.

128 sinsremoved  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:54:33pm

I have seen the Privelaged Planet CD.

I thought it was pretty good.

What's wrong with showing it to students?

129 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:54:43pm

Did I just put an "i" before an "e" after a "c"?

Back to school....................

130 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:54:44pm

Intelligent Design (ID) is not Islamic Design (ID). It is more like Infidel Design (ID).

131 DesertSage  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:54:47pm

re: #112 Tigger2005

Joshua Chamberlain became one of my personal heroes after I read the book and saw the film. A great American.

Did you read the trilogy, Tigger? All three of those books were awesome.

Killer Tomato (who I haven't seen lately) shares a birthday with Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain. She's a big fan of his too. Next time you see her here you should bring it up.

132 Irish Rose  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:55:06pm

re: #97 Killgore Trout

If they succeed in undermining science education in this country (which I don't hink they will) they are a far greater threat that radical Islam. If they succeed we will be a 3rd world country in a few short generations. It would take radical Islam much longer to destroy us.

Usually I agree with you, but I'm not so sure about this comment. Can you elaborate?

133 loflyer  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:55:24pm

re: #69 BlueCanuck

Way off topic here but who cares, you folks will stay on topic all the way to the bitter end. I have noticed, being on of the regular dead threaders, that when an Evolution/ID thread is posted any subsequent threads are slow, lethargic and missing many of the regulars you usually exchange wit. Now most are battling wits and ending up with nothing. I have strong opinions on this topic but I feel that most people would be offended. So I don't share them. Any way see you all on the dead thread, if you can rip yourselves away from this madness.

BC, I agree, I thoroughly dislike the evolution topics, 99 percent have made up their minds on the subject and will not be swayed by debate or logic.
OT, looks like we have a second amendment related battle at Atlanta's airport, busiest in the world. The Georgia legislature has passed a bill allowing carrying concealed weapons (With a concealed permit) into public transportation, restaurants, and other places where weapons had previously been banned. The director of Atlanta's Hartsfield/Jackson international airport released a ridiculous statement interpreting the law to exclude airports and threatening to arrest any carrying weapons into the airport. Federal law states that weapons are not allowed in the secure areas (sensible) but excludes the rest of the facilities.
Liberals, wasting taxpayers money defending the indefensible....

134 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:55:27pm

re: #124 Killgore Trout

They really do all run in the same circles- like that other group we've discussed since last fall.

135 jcbunga  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:55:30pm

...if Marilyn Monroe was distended descended from the apes, those were some freakin' smokin' hot apes.

136 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:55:31pm

re: #93 zmdavid

Uncertain Christians are harmless?
/just kidding

Well ... gratefully ... I'm uncertain about what you mean.
(You can breathe easy now.)
*grin*

137 Charles  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:55:52pm
138 nyc redneck  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:55:54pm

re: #84 Sharmuta

i had no idea.
thanks for the info.

139 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:55:55pm

re: #120 buzzsawmonkey


After "Inky dinky parlez vous" you're supposed sing "have a banana"

140 stuiec  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:55:59pm

Darwin didn't come up with the theory of evolution, he came up with the theory that evolution occurs by natural selection. He also had the insight that natural selection doesn't necessarily mean survival of the fittest, only the survival of the likeliest to sire (or bear) the next generation.

At present, the process of "natural" selection in humans is skewed in a multitude of ways, from the low birthrate in developed nations to sex-selection abortions and female infanticide in China and India. The individuals likeliest to pass their genes to the next generation are not necessarily the ones society would deem its best and brightest. It seems that human evolution may be headed in a maladaptive direction.

141 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:56:09pm

re: #104 Charles

We haven't even started to get into Rousas Rushdoony yet.

But let's! Talk about some gamy Idiotarian buttocks; they don't get much gamier than people who wanna trade in the US Constitution for the Bible - the Christian Dominionists and Reconstructionists, our very own AmeriChristian Taliban!

142 ornery elephant  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:56:14pm

re: #97 Killgore Trout

If they succeed in undermining science education in this country (which I don't hink they will) they are a far greater threat that radical Islam. If they succeed we will be a 3rd world country in a few short generations. It would take radical Islam much longer to destroy us.

Now that, I was not expecting.

Catch you all later.

143 zmdavid  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:56:31pm

There's a group of Christians that believe this stuff (creationism) and there's a group that hasn't bothered thinking about it, but sees various opponents from other battles like the ACLU, and evangelical atheists like Dawkins lining up to battle Creationists and reflexively sides with them. That's why political and legal arguments are unconvincing. One must get people looking at the science unemotionally.

Denying reality is a bad place to be.

A bad argument is worse than no argument at all.

144 ggt  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:56:36pm

re: #112 Tigger2005

put that one in the Book Link for future reference!

145 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:57:15pm
146 experiencedtraveller  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:57:50pm

re: #112 Tigger2005

Joshua Chamberlain became one of my personal heroes after I read the book and saw the film. A great American.

Completely agree. I believe Joshua Chamberlain saved American democracy. The defense of Little Round Top and his singular courage turned the tide in the decisive Battle of Gettysburg.

147 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:57:58pm

re: #99 experiencedtraveller

Mademoiselle from Armentieres...hinky dinky parley voo...

Marlene Dietrich -- Lili Marlene

148 DeliLama  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:58:09pm

re: #97 Killgore Trout

[Many, but not all] Christians everywhere have fought Darwin's writings since day one. Today is no different. The world will go on just fine regardless of people's views on evolution.

The views of people overall have become less superstitious and more reasoned over time, and that's a good thing. But don't expect miracles from the general population.

Science has always been pushed forward by a very small number of people sitting amongst the ignorance, indifference, and hostility of people who will eventually welcome the benefits of what those pioneers do: Darwin, the Wright Brothers, the scientists, the industrialists, etc. etc. all the while badmouthing them, their methods, and their findings.

149 jcm  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:58:21pm

The lack of the mention of globular clusters in the paper proves it is a fake!

150 eon  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:58:36pm

re: #70 nyc redneck

i'm just wondering if this push to bring i.d. into the realm of science as a legitimate alternative to evolution is a new phenomenon?
(i don't remember hearing abt. this much, if at all, until recently.)
if it is just being put forth now, i wonder why. why at this point?
i wonder if it is tied to the spread of islam?

Actually, the battle against natural selection began almost as soon as Darwin and Wallace's joint paper was read.

Google search for;

Thomas Henry Huxley
William Jennings Bryan (cross-reference; John Scopes)
Nonconformism

Interestingly enough, mainstream Christianity took Darwinism in its stride at the time, and later. As James Burke relates in Chapter 8 of his book The Day The Universe Changed, by 1884 Frederick Temple, a leading Anglican theologian and later Archbishop of Canterbury, stated that nothing in Darwin contradicted the principle of God's Creation. (His argument being, "How God went about creating the world is entirely his own affair", basically.)

The Catholic Church officially accepted evolution as "Part of God's plan" in Pope Pius XII's encyclical, Humani Generis, in 1951. And all it really did was enshrine in official Church doctrine what had been taught in Catholic schools (including those in the U.S.) for three generations by that time.

The present fixation on refutation of Darwin and Wallace's work by some extremists in religious circles flies in the face of a century and a half of mainstream religious doctrines. And saying that they are "defending traditional Christian beliefs" does not make it so.

As a Methodist, I was always taught that God expected us to use our brains, and reason objectively. As my sainted mother used to say, "The Good Lord gave you a head on your shoulders to use. Thinking is not a sin. Not thinking is something else entirely."

Of course, she also believed that the term "blind faith" was an oxymoron. After all, it was never demanded of anyone in the Old Testament by Himself.

cheers

eon

151 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:59:01pm

re: #105 Ringo the Gringo

What's Rousas Rushdoony?

I think he was a Scot. But that would make a FINE name in Iran And he supported death for apostasy. So he has that going for him.

152 drmark  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:59:24pm

re: #137 Charles

I appreciate you calling BS on ID and DI Charles.

153 Irish Rose  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:59:32pm

re: #120 buzzsawmonkey

Nice. Doesn't have the riper lyrics, though:

A German officer crossed the Rhine
Parley-voo
A German officer crossed the Rhine
Parley-voo
A German officer crossed the Rhine
He liked the women and loved the wine
Hinky-dinky (also, "hanky-panky") parley voo

O mademoiselle from Armentieres
Parley-voo
O mademoiselle from Armentieres
Parley-voo
O mademoiselle from Armentieres
Hasn't been f*cked in 40 years
Hinky-dinky parley voo

He took her upstairs and into bed
Parley-voo
He took her upstairs and into bed
Parley-voo
He took her upstairs and into bed
And there he cracked her maidenhead
Hinky-dinky parley voo

OK you, quit going off topic ;).

/is it getting warm in here, or is it just me?

154 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 5:59:51pm

Henry Morris:

Morris theorized in his book The Remarkable Birth of Planet Earth (1972) that the craters of the moon were caused by a cosmic battle between the forces of Satan and the armies of the archangel Michael.

Ohkaaay.

155 blue_like_jazz  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:00:39pm
156 grumpy old codger  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:00:42pm

I've no doubt that evolution continues even as we speak. I believe, however, that the "traditional" account of creation is just God's way of telling us, that, as human beings, we cannot comprehend what the big plan is. It is a "story" to reveal to us what He means, despite our inability to grasp the facts.
Darwin recognized the means, not the cause.

157 LeonidasOfSparta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:00:43pm
158 ggt  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:00:59pm

re: #97 Killgore Trout

We are in danger from Fundamentalists, both Christian and Islamic. They reject Classical Liberalism and ignore the core values on which this nation was founded. I find them no different than the Neo-Nazi's or Communists.

Ultimately, they want power. Not salvation.

159 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:01:13pm

re: #149 jcm

The lack of the mention of globular clusters in the paper proves it is a fake!

Globular clusters!
AH!
The grapes of wrath!

160 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:01:34pm

re: #70 nyc redneck

i'm just wondering if this push to bring i.d. into the realm of science as a legitimate alternative to evolution is a new phenomenon?
(i don't remember hearing abt. this much, if at all, until recently.)
if it is just being put forth now, i wonder why. why at this point?
i wonder if it is tied to the spread of islam?

No. Shhhhh!

161 jcm  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:01:47pm

re: #112 Tigger2005

Joshua Chamberlain became one of my personal heroes after I read the book and saw the film. A great American.

I read a account of Gettysburg in 5th grade. I was into history even then and would sneak into the high school library to find books. Chamberlain was a hero then. What do you do when you're out of ammo and the entire Union line hangs on your position? CHARGE!

162 Boogberg  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:01:55pm

re: #119 BlueCanuck

I'm sure a lot of people share your experience, BlueCanuck (myself included). I see nothing offensive about it.

163 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:02:57pm

re: #150 eon
Well said.

164 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:03:10pm

re: #132 Irish Rose

Biotech in the next few decades is going to become increasingly important. I'd guess it's probably going to be the single most important element that is going to shape our lives but especially the lives of our children and grand children. How is a scientifically illiterate culture going to make wise choices regarding very complex issues of biological science? If we as a culture don't have even a basic understanding of the science involved we are not going to make wise choices. Europe, India and Israel will be leading the world in curing diseases, medicine and technology. We will quickly join the Islamic world in benefiting from these advances with no understanding of how they were accomplished or how to accomplish them ourselves. We will become consumers of these advances and eventually become welfare beneficiaries when we can no longer afford to pay for them.

165 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:03:23pm

re: #141 Salamantis

But let's! Talk about some gamy Idiotarian buttocks; they don't get much gamier than people who wanna trade in the US Constitution for the Bible - the Christian Dominionists and Reconstructionists, our very own AmeriChristian Taliban!

Given that from 1776, the Bible formed the foudation of your great country, I would say that Christian fundamentalists are the very least of your problem. You should be more concerned that freedom of speech is being undermined, (it might start with shutting up the freedom of Christians to preach their "hate speech" but it will arrive on your doorstep soon enough), the removal of your right to bear arms for the protection of your families freedom (you may have that right now, but if part one comes true, gun owners will soon become criminals). And then, when your rights have been removed under the pretext of protecting you from fundamentalists, its all over Red Rover.

166 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:03:46pm

re: #161 jcm

What do you do when you're out of ammo and the entire Union line hangs on your position?

Send the children across!

167 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:03:53pm

re: #148 DeliLama

[Many, but not all] Christians everywhere have fought Darwin's writings since day one.

Actually- there was no one fighting to stop On the Origins of Species from landing in America. There was, however, massive demonstrations to stop The Life of Jesus Critically Examined. It was this book, and not Darwin that drove the evangelical community to write The Fundamentals- evolution is scarcely mentioned as an issue.

168 Ringo the Gringo  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:04:17pm

Rousas Rushdoony, that's one hell of a name.

I just did a quick wiki-read-up on him, sounds like he wanted to turn the US into a Christian version of Saudi Arabia.

A complete nutter.

169 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:04:20pm

re: #154 Sharmuta

Heh.

170 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:04:30pm

When does desert get here?
I've finished supper.
Where are they?

171 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:04:32pm
172 jcbunga  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:05:08pm

re: #161 jcm

I read a account of Gettysburg in 5th grade. I was into history even then and would sneak into the high school library to find books. Chamberlain was a hero then. What do you do when you're out of ammo and the entire Union line hangs on your position? CHARGE!

I've been to Little Round Top many times...it's less than an hour drive. Very touching to see people leaving pennies (Lincoln) atop the 20th Maine monument, which is situated approximately where Chamberlain extended his line and turned it back at the colors.

No Code Pinko's there, either. Just patriots and pennies :)

173 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:05:08pm

re: #158 ggt

We are in danger from Fundamentalists, both Christian and Islamic. They reject Classical Liberalism and ignore the core values on which this nation was founded. I find them no different than the Neo-Nazi's or Communists.

Ultimately, they want power. Not salvation.


Your nation was founded on the values and morals contained in the Bible, not liberalism.

174 Irish Rose  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:05:17pm

re: #164 Killgore Trout


I'm not sure that I agree with you, but you do make a very interesting point. I'll ponder it for a while.

175 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:05:18pm

re: #137 Charles

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

See also:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

176 loflyer  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:05:22pm

re: #154 Sharmuta

Henry Morris:


Ohkaaay.

I also remember that some early science fiction writers theorized the craters were caused by a nuclear war that blew away the moons atmosphere. Heinlein's "Rocket ship Galileo" was my personal fav as a child. Modern science interprets the craters as caused by meteors and the nuclear war theory went no-where....Reminds me of "global warming"

177 Boogberg  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:05:31pm

re: #126 Charles

The father of Christian Reconstructionism and a long time John Bircher. I believe he died a few years ago.

Ah yes. The "John Birch Society". What the hell's up with those weirdos?

178 theparson  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:05:41pm

I haven't had much to say on this but I have read most of the posts and feel like weighing in.
First to my Christian brethren. It saddens me to read the angry, spiteful words that come from so many who profess to be Christians. I don't understand why some of you insist on throwing pejoratives at Charles for posting on his own blog things of interest to him. It isn't as though he has invaded your territory or as though you have stumbled upon this blog. You made the choice to log on to and participate in this blog knowing full well it belongs to him.
You feel as though your faith is challenged. So what! That is part of the deal. If you see yourself as a martyr why not act like one. Why not suffer in silence and faithful dignity. Where do we find in the Bible that martyr's fight back? Doesn't the Word tell us that "a soft word turns away wrath"? Doesn't that same word tell us to "Count it all joy..."? How many of your have actually prayed for those who "spitefully use you"? Do you pray that God will give you wisdom and understanding with divinely inspired words to express, in a loving meaningful way, your faith?
You reject this admonition? You feel you have the right, no... duty to correct those who believe differently or challenge your beliefs? Are you indignant at their audacious insistence to defy your faith!? If so, I do not question your Christianity but I do question your Christian maturity.

And to my friends on the other side. I admit an ignorance concerning this subject. I am not a scientist. I confess to a belief in the Biblical account of creation. I also admit that, though I believe God created all things, I truly don't know how He accomplished that. While it saddens me that many scientists confess a disbelief in God, I am glad that scientists are exploring different ideas and using their (God given) knowledge to make life better in so many ways. I would like to offer my apologies to you on behalf of my Christian brethren for angry and hateful words. It is true that I sometimes read words that are hurtful but, I made the choice to believe the way I do.
I doubt more than 5 people will read this but regardless of that, I feel better!
theparson

179 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:05:48pm

re: #166 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

Send the children across!


What the heck are you doing here, have you got a bag lady to entertain?

180 loflyer  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:07:36pm

re: #176 loflyer

Ignore my previous post Sharmuta, I fat-fingered the quote button....

181 Charles  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:07:46pm

re: #168 Ringo the Gringo

Rousas Rushdoony, that's one hell of a name.

I just did a quick wiki-read-up on him, sounds like he wanted to turn the US into a Christian version of Saudi Arabia.

A complete nutter.

That's exactly what he wanted, and what his various fellow travelers continue to work for. And that's one reason this topic is worth digging into.

182 LeePro  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:08:10pm

re: #165 A Kiwi Infidel

Given that from 1776, the Bible formed the foudation of your great country, I would say that Christian fundamentalists are the very least of your problem. You should be more concerned that freedom of speech is being undermined, (it might start with shutting up the freedom of Christians to preach their "hate speech" but it will arrive on your doorstep soon enough), the removal of your right to bear arms for the protection of your families freedom (you may have that right now, but if part one comes true, gun owners will soon become criminals). And then, when your rights have been removed under the pretext of protecting you from fundamentalists, its all over Red Rover.

Excellent observations "from afar," Kiwi! ! !
My sentiments exactly!

183 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:08:26pm

re: #138 nyc redneck

My pleasure.

184 nyc redneck  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:08:27pm

re: #160 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

No. Shhhhh!

how tall are you? 5'0' even or 5'1'?
and are you a 34 extra short or a 36 extra short in those poly suits you wear?
you need a new tailor. try a 60's style suit. the tapered trousers will give you some height.
also take your wife (wives) out from under the sack. you bad man, you.

185 Ringo the Gringo  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:08:34pm

“Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s”

Sound's like Rushdoony must have missed this passage.

186 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:08:49pm

re: #177 Boogberg

Ah yes. The "John Birch Society". What the hell's up with those weirdos?


Weirdos! Weirdos! How dare you. I will have you know that they are freaking nuts!

187 jcm  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:09:03pm

re: #166 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

Send the children across!

No need we deliver!

188 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:09:11pm

re: #178 theparson

Well put, Parson.

189 MandyManners  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:09:27pm

In the Institutes, Rushdoony supported the reinstatement of the Mosaic law's penal sanctions. Under such a system, the list of civil crimes which carried a death sentence would include homosexuality, adultery, incest, lying about one's virginity, bestiality, witchcraft, idolatry or apostasy, public blasphemy, false prophesying, kidnapping, rape, and bearing false witness in a capital case.

SNIP
Lovely.

190 Cognito  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:09:29pm

re: #181 Charles

That's exactly what he wanted, and what his various fellow travelers continue to work for. And that's one reason this topic is worth digging into.

Heck yes. Those Christians are practically polishing their scimitars these days.

191 wolfie  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:09:36pm

re: #158 ggt

We are in danger from Fundamentalists, both Christian and Islamic. They reject Classical Liberalism and ignore the core values on which this nation was founded. I find them no different than the Neo-Nazi's or Communists.

Ultimately, they want power. Not salvation.


So. Christians who believe in a literal, 6-day creation story are no different from Nazis?
Thank you for clarifying that.

By the way, have you ever met one?

192 Irish Rose  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:09:42pm

re: #178 theparson

Great post!

193 ASU86PE  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:10:13pm

re: #34 SasquatchOnSteroids

1. Dude, I like the throwback link to Blue Oyster Cult in your avatar name.

2. Yes, a lot has changed as shown in the video.

Yet, I'm still not convinced we are better than our ancestors; we're just wrapped in the trappings they left behind.

194 zmdavid  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:10:16pm

The ability to join fringe groups and hold odd views is a cherished right here in the U.S. As long as people stick to regular legal American institutions to push their cause they deserve at least some respect, at least in my opinion. That is why I am not worried as much about Christian Creationists as Islamic radicals or socialists.

195 drmark  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:10:20pm

re: #181 Charles

IMHO there are much bigger threats than this school issue....

196 experiencedtraveller  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:10:34pm

re: #171 buzzsawmonkey and re: #147 pre-Boomer Marine brat:

And we won't come back
till its over.
Over there.

/Which kind of makes it a fitting song for 2008 eh?

197 least  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:10:37pm

re: #38 opnion

Right, but when people cling to the Genesis story, all rational discussion is over.
science does not defeat faith, but clinging to preposterous stories does not miove the discussion.


'Scuze me . . .
1) By calling The Genesis accounts "preposterous stories" you move the discussion where?
2) And you know it's preposterous because you were there?

198 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:10:51pm

She will wake soon (I can hear her snores and belches becoming irregular even from here in the tower where I write), and I must therefore sign off before too long. It is always good to "check up on the ol' infidels", to make sure that you are not paying too much attention to science education, and that above all, you must be VERY concerned about global worming. That stuff is serious business, oh yessss.

Oh! Palantir coming online. Gotta go.

199 tokyobk  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:11:14pm

re: #158 ggt

We are in danger from Fundamentalists, both Christian and Islamic. They reject Classical Liberalism and ignore the core values on which this nation was founded. I find them no different than the Neo-Nazi's or Communists.

Ultimately, they want power. Not salvation.

Though America was founded by a Classical Liberalsim shaped by Christian and Humanistic values, and actual Christians. America cannot and should not be separated from this legacy.

That said, the founders had to separate themselves from the literalism which all religions seem to demand. Deism worked in this way.

And that is what bothers me in this argument. What some religious people want to do is conform science and discovery to stories written down by people with minuscule knowledge of the world around them, and second hand reporting about the events they describe, with of course political interests in recording things as they did. The Torah, New Testament and the Koran are all a hodgepodge of mistranslations, repeated and reshaped myths, terrible geography and worse science.

It is religion that gives way as it must to measurable and reportable discoveries. Trying to fit discoverable and measurable reality into the dogmas of any of man's religions is both impossible and unprofitable.

Not that there is not a god.

200 jcm  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:11:19pm

re: #178 theparson

I haven't had much to say on this but I have read most of the posts and feel like weighing in.
First to my Christian brethren. It saddens me to read the angry, spiteful words that come from so many who profess to be Christians. I don't understand why some of you insist on throwing pejoratives at Charles for posting on his own blog things of interest to him. It isn't as though he has invaded your territory or as though you have stumbled upon this blog. You made the choice to log on to and participate in this blog knowing full well it belongs to him.
You feel as though your faith is challenged. So what! That is part of the deal. If you see yourself as a martyr why not act like one. Why not suffer in silence and faithful dignity. Where do we find in the Bible that martyr's fight back? Doesn't the Word tell us that "a soft word turns away wrath"? Doesn't that same word tell us to "Count it all joy..."? How many of your have actually prayed for those who "spitefully use you"? Do you pray that God will give you wisdom and understanding with divinely inspired words to express, in a loving meaningful way, your faith?
You reject this admonition? You feel you have the right, no... duty to correct those who believe differently or challenge your beliefs? Are you indignant at their audacious insistence to defy your faith!? If so, I do not question your Christianity but I do question your Christian maturity.

And to my friends on the other side. I admit an ignorance concerning this subject. I am not a scientist. I confess to a belief in the Biblical account of creation. I also admit that, though I believe God created all things, I truly don't know how He accomplished that. While it saddens me that many scientists confess a disbelief in God, I am glad that scientists are exploring different ideas and using their (God given) knowledge to make life better in so many ways. I would like to offer my apologies to you on behalf of my Christian brethren for angry and hateful words. It is true that I sometimes read words that are hurtful but, I made the choice to believe the way I do.
I doubt more than 5 people will read this but regardless of that, I feel better!
theparson

Hear! Hear!

201 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:11:41pm

re: #97 Killgore Trout

If they succeed in undermining science education in this country (which I don't hink they will) they are a far greater threat that radical Islam. If they succeed we will be a 3rd world country in a few short generations. It would take radical Islam much longer to destroy us.

Yeah, kinda like the horde of secularist science teachers who have already infiltrated the classroom and undermined science and are pushing their brand of Marxism/Christian persecution. Science teachers should check their belief in God, or lack thereof at the door and teach the facts - of which evolution is one. Being a believer in God and a Christian does not disqualify or preclude one from teaching science, or make him any less a teacher. You really should explore Christ before you go lumping us all into the same category. You come off sounding like a leftist.

202 FrogMarch  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:11:56pm
203 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:12:01pm

re: #178 theparson

I read it, and you're right. However, as a longtime poster, here, I have tried reason, as iron sharpens iron, and in the end you tend to give up, after all, we are not cast pearls before swine.

I agree with you. The issue of how it all came about is a clever diversion manufactured by the enemy to draw us away from the real issue, our sin our fallen-ness from the Glory of God, and our need to be put right, our need for a Saviour, and Praise the Lord Jesus Christ died for all men.

I just believe in the creation, In Faith, and I move on.

Thanks Parson, for chiming in. Hang around, sometimes there is a soul that asks a question with a heart to know.

204 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:12:29pm

re: #194 zmdavid

The ability to join fringe groups and hold odd views is a cherished right here in the U.S. As long as people stick to regular legal American institutions to push their cause they deserve at least some respect, at least in my opinion. That is why I am not worried as much about Christian Creationists as Islamic radicals or socialists.


I think we have a winner!

205 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:12:40pm

re: #182 LeePro


Dont worry, its coming here, soon enough.

206 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:12:51pm

re: #190 Cognito

Heck yes. Those Christians are practically polishing their scimitars these days.

Jeez, they let anybody in here.

207 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:13:02pm

re: #178 theparson

Bravo!

208 ggt  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:13:09pm

re: #164 Killgore Trout


I heard a report on drive-time radio this morning that a little girl was born in England recently who is free of the hereditary breast cancer gene that has plagued every generation of females in her father's line. Beginning with her, subsequent generations will also be free of it.

This was accomplished thru science. Fertalized eggs were taken by the mother and evaluated. Those free of the gene were implanted.

Amazing!

209 drmark  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:13:09pm

Our duly elected representatives are the ones screwing us....
not IDer's

210 quickjustice  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:13:29pm

Treating science as religion (as does Dawkins) and religion as science (as do the creationists) takes us backwards, not forwards. Darwin's wife, whom he dearly loved, was a devout Christian who was greatly distressed by her husband's theory. She also believed that the earth was only a few thousand years old, as calculated from the Bible.

Darwin suffered for his theory. He stuck to it nonetheless.

Good science and good technology are necessary to improve our material lives. Good religion is necessary for spiritual introspection. Conflating the two leads to both bad science and bad religion.

211 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:13:40pm

re: #165 A Kiwi Infidel

Given that from 1776, the Bible formed the foudation of your great country, I would say that Christian fundamentalists are the very least of your problem.

I think a lack of civics and history education is our problem.

This country was founded by the religiously persecuted fleeing Christian theocracies in europe. This country, from 1776 forward, was founded on the theories of democracy pondered by the greeks to the Enlightenment. Did Judeo-Christian values play a role? Certainly, but there were other influences, and there's no denying that.

212 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:13:56pm

re: #201 Kreuzueber Halbmond

You really should explore Christ before you go lumping us all into the same category.


Thanks, I'll do that.

213 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:14:01pm

re: #178 theparson

I doubt more than 5 people will read this

12 up-dings and climbing, Parson -- oh you of little faith!
*grin*
*tease*

214 jcm  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:14:08pm

re: #202 FrogMarch

Obama is going to de-fund NASA to pay for universal daycare.

great.

Commie indoctrination for 3 year olds, what's he going to call his program?
Young Pioneers?

215 FrogMarch  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:14:15pm

I had a wonderful geology teacher in College (CSU, Fort Collins, CO) who openly admitted he believed in God, and said that science only reinforced his belief. That was the end of it. After that, we all were taught geology.
Cool dude.

216 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:14:36pm

re: #202 FrogMarch

Obama is going to de-fund NASA to pay for universal daycare.

great.

If it is truly Universal, won't they need NASA to run the school bus?

217 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:14:54pm

re: #208 ggt

Yes, I read the same thing. It's amazing what humans will accomplish in the next few generations.

218 Killian Bundy  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:15:23pm

Frankly, those who believe that the United States is in any danger of becoming a Christian theocracy are just as nuts as those who believe the Earth is 6000 years old.

/IMHO

219 ggt  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:15:47pm

re: #173 A Kiwi Infidel

I'm not touching that one. You believe what you want.

220 Boogberg  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:15:55pm

re: #178 theparson

I liked your post too, theparson. See? that's already more than five people who've read your comment. :D

221 anduril3019  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:16:06pm
Waikato University biological sciences senior lecturer Alison Campbell says the material champions creationism... “It’s an underhand way of getting creationist material into schools.” ...

If an openly Christian organization gives out materials that promote a creationist world view, how is this underhanded?

222 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:16:20pm

re: #214 jcm

Commie indoctrination for 3 year olds, what's he going to call his program?
Young Pioneers?


Obama is one dangerous son of a bitch!

223 FrogMarch  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:16:45pm

re: #214 jcm

Commie indoctrination for 3 year olds, what's he going to call his program?
Young Pioneers?

Well you know since the moon landing was faked (REM says so!) and Hubble was a bust - who needs space exploration? We must take care of the poor. Just like Obama did w/ his Chicago housing project.

224 jcm  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:16:46pm

re: #220 Boogberg

I liked your post too, theparson. See? that's already more than five people who've read your comment. :D

Read? I was just dinging to be with the in crowd! / ;-P

Great post Parson!

225 theparson  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:17:11pm

re: #213 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Thanks, Boomer, et al. I'm humbled by the kind words.

226 Dekar  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:18:27pm

re: #166 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

Send the children across!

SHET! I totally meant to + you

227 Zach_the_Lizard  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:19:08pm

I, as a Christian and believer in evolution, look with confusion and disappointment at my fellow Christians who reject evolution. As far as I am concerned, the debate over whether evolution happens or not is over. All one has to do to prove evolution is simply look at the fossil record to see the transformation of species over time (though there are gaps) and then glance on over at the rapid mutation of diseases. The fossils simply prove we weren't around since the beginning, and the rapid mutation proves the mechanism of natural selection does, indeed, work as expected.

I look on those who would deny access to science because it doesn't mesh with their religious beliefs just as I would look upon the Islamists who wish to turn the world into a theocracy. If you wish to not believe in evolution, that which is before your very eyes, then feel free to wallow in your own, self contained, ignorance. However, do not spread your ignorance by shoving it down the throats of others.

Also, for certain very extremist versions of Christianity (and other religions), do not confuse morality with legality. Though we may believe that something is sinful, man has been granted free will. So long as something harms no one but those that partake in that action, it should be legal. Don't agree with homosexuality? Fine. I don't. However, don't ban it. I don't agree with gay marriage, however, I would be in favor of legalizing it.

Please guys, just give up on creationism already. You make us conservatives look like backasswards hillbillies by clinging to it. Let it go.

228 FrogMarch  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:19:11pm

re: #218 Killian Bundy

Frankly, those who believe that the United States is in any danger of becoming a Christian theocracy are just as nuts as those who believe the Earth is 6000 years old.

/IMHO

I would agree.

229 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:19:15pm

Hey, I'm going out for silders. Anybody want anything?

230 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:19:38pm

re: #208 ggt

I heard a report on drive-time radio this morning that a little girl was born in England recently who is free of the hereditary breast cancer gene that has plagued every generation of females in her father's line. Beginning with her, subsequent generations will also be free of it.

This was accomplished thru science. Fertalized eggs were taken by the mother and evaluated. Those free of the gene were implanted.

Amazing!

In my country we are beyond this, and will soon have produced women with no breasts. While the research and measurements are time-consuming, difficult labor, the payoff will be that my scientists will no longer be distracted by anything, enabling them to pursue more important science projects in a world free from carnal desires. And you know what my favorite science project is.

231 Zach_the_Lizard  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:19:44pm

re: #218 Killian Bundy

Frankly, those who believe that the United States is in any danger of becoming a Christian theocracy are just as nuts as those who believe the Earth is 6000 years old.

/IMHO

Very well said.

232 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:20:16pm

re: #178 theparson

*grin*
17 and still going, Parson!
Keep contributing!

233 ASU86PE  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:20:21pm

re: #25 DeliLama

Science has nothing to do with your disbelief in Christianity.

234 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:20:47pm

Rousas Rushdoony and his connections

Rousas Rushdoony has been highly influential in the American fundamentalist movement. The article also shows the connections between Rushdoony’s friend Howard Ahmanson, the Discovery Institute and Intelligent Design.

It appears that one of the major objections to the report is that it associates believers in young earth creationism, and Intelligent Design with extreme fundamentalism.


I get it now.

235 jcm  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:20:55pm

re: #223 FrogMarch

Well you know since the moon landing was faked (REM says so!) and Hubble was a bust - who needs space exploration? We must take care of the poor. Just like Obama did w/ his Chicago housing project.

I gave a camera a roll of film to a moon landing moonbat, simple assignment. Take a picture at night, in the foreground fully illuminated subject, in the background stars.

He I never saw his pictures, he never mentioned it again.

About 99 of the units are vacant, many rendered uninhabitable by unfixed problems, such as collapsed roofs and fire damage. Mice scamper through the halls. Battered mailboxes hang open. Sewage backs up into kitchen sinks. In 2006, federal inspectors graded the condition of the complex an 11 on a 100-point scale - a score so bad the buildings now face demolition.

Welcome to BHO's healthcare, retirement plans, and anything else he gets his red hands on.

236 Dr. Shalit  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:20:59pm

In My Humble Opinion -

1. There was a Creator.

2. That Creator, afterwards, took a "Hands Off" position.

3. Darwin tracked what happened rather accurately.

That is all.

-S-

237 blue_like_jazz  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:21:08pm

re: #208 ggt

I heard a report on drive-time radio this morning that a little girl was born in England recently who is free of the hereditary breast cancer gene that has plagued every generation of females in her father's line. Beginning with her, subsequent generations will also be free of it.

This was accomplished thru science. Fertalized eggs were taken by the mother and evaluated. Those free of the gene were implanted.

Amazing!

that is scary as hell.

couple that technology with people like dawkins ("who's to say hitler wasn't right?") and you've got a eugenics nightmare on your hands.

238 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:21:12pm

re: #224 jcm


I had give theparson an upding and was on my way spooted the post and it was you, you cad, you had quoted it in full and I fell for the ruse and you received an up-ding in error.

239 mama winger  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:21:20pm

re: #158 ggt

We are in danger from Fundamentalists, both Christian and Islamic. They reject Classical Liberalism and ignore the core values on which this nation was founded. I find them no different than the Neo-Nazi's or Communists.

Ultimately, they want power. Not salvation.

I am a Christian fundamentalist. I believe the Bible to be the word of God. I endeavor to live my life according to my beliefs.

I am neither dangerous, a lunatic or comparable to radical islamists.

I in no way reject the core values on which our country was founded. On the contrary, I have worked all of my adult life to uphold these values, as have the children I raised both in the church and through Christian school.

If any one of you dare to question my patriotism, love of liberty, or dedication to this country's principles. and DARE to compare me to the most rabid and murderous scum of the earth..... because I think differently than you.......

I will not even grace that with a reply.


My son will protect you anyway next deployment.

240 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:21:36pm

re: #194 zmdavid

The ability to join fringe groups and hold odd views is a cherished right here in the U.S. As long as people stick to regular legal American institutions to push their cause they deserve at least some respect, at least in my opinion. That is why I am not worried as much about Christian Creationists as Islamic radicals or socialists.

So I should respect neo-nazis and cair?

241 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:21:56pm

re: #165 A Kiwi Infidel

Given that from 1776, the Bible formed the foudation of your great country, I would say that Christian fundamentalists are the very least of your problem. You should be more concerned that freedom of speech is being undermined, (it might start with shutting up the freedom of Christians to preach their "hate speech" but it will arrive on your doorstep soon enough), the removal of your right to bear arms for the protection of your families freedom (you may have that right now, but if part one comes true, gun owners will soon become criminals). And then, when your rights have been removed under the pretext of protecting you from fundamentalists, its all over Red Rover.

Sal: Actually, the majority of the Founding Fathers, such as Washington, Franklin and Jefferson, weren't particularly pious Christians. Freedom of Speech, particularly the Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America, is undermined when sectarian religious instruction is allowed in public schools, privileging some religious doctrines over others, as it abridges the right of people to have their children free from religious indoctrination with which they do not agree (which is why these laws keep getting overturned in court). And the US Supreme Court just affirmed the individual right for non-militia-connected US citizens to keep and bear for the first time in American history.

242 mama winger  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:21:59pm

And I do not desire power. That's just false.

I desire liberty. Just like you.

243 ggt  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:22:03pm

re: #191 wolfie

Fundamentalist Christians who want to dictate what both you and I should believe.

IIRC there is nothing in science that says the earth wasn't created in 7 days. Without a Sun and Moon, a day could have been millions of years.

Exploring the unknown is a danger to those who want power. Refusing to explore the unknown is a danger to all of us.

244 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:22:03pm

re: #229 opnion

Hey, I'm going out for silders. Anybody want anything?

Three young boys with no known family. Thanks.

245 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:22:12pm

re: #236 Dr. Shalit

In My Humble Opinion -

1. There was a Creator.

2. That Creator, afterwards, took a "Hands Off" position.

3. Darwin tracked what happened rather accurately.

That is all.

-S-

You are a deist

246 yochanan  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:23:04pm

FRANKLY I DON'T KNOW WHY THIS WHOLE DEBATE IS BECOMING SO IMPORTANT AT LGF. FRANKLY I DON'T GIVE A TINKERS DAMN ABOUT I.D., EVOLUTION ET AL. I CARE ABOUT ISLMO FASCISM, THE WAR ON TERROR, IRAN TRYING TO GET NUKES TO USE ON US OR ISRAEL. I FEEL THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WILL BE DAMAGING TO LGF. AND DEVIDE THE BLOG AND COMMUNITY. AND FOR WHAT BENIFIT?

AND YES I AM YELLING

247 jcm  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:23:20pm

re: #238 A Kiwi Infidel

I had give theparson an upding and was on my way spooted the post and it was you, you cad, you had quoted it in full and I fell for the ruse and you received an up-ding in error.

The fine art of stealing dings...
Go ding theparson!

248 sparrowlake  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:23:22pm

re: #218 Killian Bundy

Frankly, those who believe that the United States is in any danger of becoming a Christian Muslim theocracy are just not nearly as nuts as those who believe the Earth is 6000 years old.
/IMHO

Fixed it.

249 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:23:44pm

re: #238 A Kiwi Infidel

I had give theparson an upding and was on my way spooted the post and it was you, you cad, you had quoted it in full and I fell for the ruse and you received an up-ding in error.

Oh goody, you want me to go back up and down-ding jcm to keep things equal?

JCM, PUT DOWN THAT SHOTGUN!

250 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:23:46pm

And this seems like the 150th attack on McCain's military record from patriotic Democrats. Now, it's Webb.

The only folks who are going out of their way to mention military records are the leftists attacking McCain at Obama's behest.

Smear merchants one and all. And Obama is doing nothing about it except winking and nodding all the while.

251 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:24:03pm
252 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:24:46pm

re: #239 mama winger


And, that, ladies and gentlemen, is spoken by the sort of person who was and still is prepared to die for the freedom and liberty of her country, her family, her children and even those liberal cowards who will not fight. One up-ding.

253 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:24:53pm

re: #239 mama winger

I am a Christian fundamentalist. I believe the Bible to be the word of God. I endeavor to live my life according to my beliefs.

I am neither dangerous, a lunatic or comparable to radical islamists.

I in no way reject the core values on which our country was founded. On the contrary, I have worked all of my adult life to uphold these values, as have the children I raised both in the church and through Christian school.

If any one of you dare to question my patriotism, love of liberty, or dedication to this country's principles. and DARE to compare me to the most rabid and murderous scum of the earth..... because I think differently than you.......

I will not even grace that with a reply.


My son will protect you anyway next deployment.


Mama Winger, there you are! I have been looking for you all weekend.
Watch any baseball this weekend?
And God Bless your son.

254 mama winger  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:24:53pm

re: #251 buzzsawmonkey

Mama! A joy to see you!

I wish I could say it is a joy to be here.

I am shaking with dismay and anger.

255 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:25:11pm

re: #173 A Kiwi Infidel

Actually, Greco-Roman philosophical ideas were at least as important as Judeo-Christian religious concepts in the writing of the US Constitution.

256 zmdavid  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:25:23pm

re: #240 Sharmuta

So I should respect neo-nazis and cair?

If they do nothing illegal, yes. They both, I believe, do illegal stuff. Remember, I said some respect.

257 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:25:28pm

re: #247 jcm

Done, it seem I am in a dinging mood, so look out, they have all been ups, so far!

258 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:25:28pm

It's quite interesting to watch how the theory of evolution has itself evolved in the 150 years since it was proposed. And some aspects have been tested and proven, while others have fallen by the wayside.

259 wolfie  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:25:56pm

re: #229 opnion

Hey, I'm going out for silders. Anybody want anything?

What are silders?

260 jcm  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:26:02pm

re: #249 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Oh goody, you want me to go back up and down-ding jcm to keep things equal?

JCM, PUT DOWN THAT SHOTGUN!

Shotgun? Hell, start running! I'll give you a whole minute!

/ ;-P

261 jcbunga  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:26:09pm

re: #250 lawhawk

And this Now, it's Webb.

...saw Webb in person recently. His head is enormous. Infants and small woodland creatures were caught in its gravitational field and could not escape...he is a menace.

262 mobaby  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:26:15pm

re: #61 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Yes. You are right.

Theocracy is theocracy, no matter who's behind it.

I am a right-wing Christian believer, and let me tell you we have a looonngg way to go in setting up our theocracy. Oh, I know it's hard work, especially with all the kids we have and how disorganized our Churches are, and the general feeling that just keeping up with life and making our financial ends meet is challenging enough - but I guess we will have to get that ol' theocracy thing off the back burner and really start working on it. Right after I finish watching "So You Think You Can Dance" I will get right on it. Theocracies don't build themselves you know.

263 FamHistoryGuy  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:26:18pm

I have vol 2 of "The Letters of Asa Grey". This is a compilation of correspondence between Asa Grey and Charles Darwin. The pages are brittle and browned. Got it at an auction at Texas A & M about 1987. It was in with a large number of books. A lot of them were in German and texts on biology. The purchaser took what he wanted from the pile and then gave the rest away at a church to whoever wanted them. Got a couple of other late 1800's books as well. One by Adm. Farragut and the other in Flemish on the history of transportation.

264 MandyManners  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:26:23pm

re: #237 blue_like_jazz

that is scary as hell.

couple that technology with people like dawkins ("who's to say hitler wasn't right?") and you've got a eugenics nightmare on your hands.

What's scary about eliminating a devestating disease?

265 ggt  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:26:34pm

re: #199 tokyobk

It's the narrow interpretation of both religion and science that I don't understand. I see no conflict between the Bible and Evolution.

I also believe teh 10 commandments should be displayed in every court room. It is the basis of our way of life. I don't think one has to be a Religious Person to understand or belive that.

It's the combination of Reason and Judeo-Christian value that makes us what we are.

I just see fanatics on both sides wanting absolute power and I think that desire is at odds with the values of both.

266 tokyobk  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:27:12pm

re: #246 yochanan


AND YES I AM YELLING

It matters. Just as the fight against Islamo-fascism matters. Just as taking on the MSM matters. It is about the struggle of keeping on the flame of Enlightenment and Truth in the wind and darkness of untruth.

The common thread at LGF is holding thinking over dogma and superstition.

267 FrogMarch  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:27:13pm

re: #216 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

If it is truly Universal, won't they need NASA to run the school bus?

Out of the generoisty of leftist hearts - the former NASA scientists and astrophysicists will be offered bus driver jobs.
It's only fair.

268 yochanan  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:27:29pm

THIS WHOLE SUBJECT CAUSES SADNESS AND HURT AND FOR WHAT BENIFIT? NONE I CAN SEE.

I FOR ONE WISH IT WHOULD BE SENT TO THE MEMORY HOLE.

269 jcm  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:27:34pm

re: #265 ggt

It's the narrow interpretation of both religion and science that I don't understand. I see no conflict between the Bible and Evolution.

I also believe teh 10 commandments should be displayed in every court room. It is the basis of our way of life. I don't think one has to be a Religious Person to understand or belive that.

It's the combination of Reason and Judeo-Christian value that makes us what we are.

I just see fanatics on both sides wanting absolute power and I think that desire is at odds with the values of both.

Applause!

270 Alouette  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:28:17pm

re: #120 buzzsawmonkey

Nice. Doesn't have the riper lyrics, though:

O mademoiselle from Armentieres
Parley-voo
O mademoiselle from Armentieres
Parley-voo
O mademoiselle from Armentieres
......

Is this thread going to devolve into the raunchier verses of "Barnacle Bill the Sailor"

DRINK!

271 Boogberg  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:28:17pm

re: #246 yochanan

FRANKLY I DON'T GIVE A TINKERS DAMN ABOUT I.D., EVOLUTION ET AL.

Participate in the other threads then. Doh! :D

272 yochanan  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:28:29pm

re: #266 tokyobk

SEEMS TO ME IT IS CREATING A DIVISON FOR NO BENIFIT

273 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:28:30pm

re: #255 Salamantis

Actually, Greco-Roman philosophical ideas were at least as important as Judeo-Christian religious concepts in the writing of the US Constitution.


I am trying to find the quote that goes something like this.

I tried to find what made America great. I searched .........wherever.... but then I found it, it was in her churches, they were full every Sunday. That is what makes America great. The day America's churches are no longer full will be the day when America is no longer great.

Go to Church on Sunday, Salamantis?

274 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:28:37pm
275 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:28:40pm

re: #256 zmdavid

Respect is earned, not a given.

276 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:28:42pm

re: #254 mama winger

I wish I could say it is a joy to be here.

I am shaking with dismay and anger.

{mama winger}

277 mama winger  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:29:01pm

re: #274 buzzsawmonkey

Sorry to hear that. I, for one, have missed you.

And I you, my friend .

sigh

278 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:29:12pm

re: #246 yochanan

FRANKLY I DON'T KNOW WHY THIS WHOLE DEBATE IS BECOMING SO IMPORTANT AT LGF. FRANKLY I DON'T GIVE A TINKERS DAMN ABOUT I.D., EVOLUTION ET AL. I CARE ABOUT ISLMO FASCISM, THE WAR ON TERROR, IRAN TRYING TO GET NUKES TO USE ON US OR ISRAEL. I FEEL THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WILL BE DAMAGING TO LGF. AND DEVIDE THE BLOG AND COMMUNITY. AND FOR WHAT BENIFIT?

AND YES I AM YELLING


Hey bro. I am no Oracle & my Mensa app was not lost in the mail.
However I did opine that Israel shoud strike Iran during the campaign.
Mort kondarcke on Fox is now saying that is a huge rumor.
The purpose would be to make Obama take a stand. It would be smart.

279 jcm  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:29:15pm

re: #254 mama winger

I wish I could say it is a joy to be here.

I am shaking with dismay and anger.

{mama}

280 pingjockey  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:29:18pm

re: #259 wolfie
Navy slang for hamburgers.

281 mama winger  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:29:32pm

You have no idea how much .....

282 jcm  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:29:59pm

re: #280 pingjockey

Navy slang for hamburgers.

You picking up any bug juice?

283 yochanan  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:30:05pm

BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE I CARE ABOUT HAVE BEEN DEEPLY HURT BY THIS SUBJECT AND I FELT I MUST SAY MY PIECE. AND I AM NOT TAKING A SIDE ON THE SUBJECT ONE WAY OR THE OTHER.

284 eon  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:30:12pm

re: #236 Dr. Shalit

In My Humble Opinion -

1. There was a Creator.

2. That Creator, afterwards, took a "Hands Off" position.

3. Darwin tracked what happened rather accurately.

That is all.

-S-

Well said. According to what I was taught, it went sort of like this;


God initiates Big Bang.

He monitors situation for six billion years, concludes His creation is progressing as per expected parameters.

When sentience develops on schedule, He ensures that it includes moral sense (i.e., concept of right and wrong).


After which, He tells new sentients,


"It is now up to you. I am not going to interfere unless absolutely necessary.


"Try not to make a mess of things."

And with that, I'm off for the night. (Up since 0400 and my eyes are telling me "close down now if you want to be able to drive in the morning.")

Good night, Lizards.

And may God bless.

cheers

eon

285 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:30:54pm

Here it is.........

More than 150 years ago, French statesman Alexis de Tocqueville came to America looking for the secret of its greatness. He wrote:

I sought for the greatness and genius of America in her commodious harbors and her ample rivers — and it was not there … in her fertile fields and boundless forests — and it was not there … in her rich mines and her vast world commerce — and it was not there … in her democratic Congress and her matchless Constitution — and it was not there. Not until I went into the churches of America and heard her pulpits flame with righteous­ness did I understand the secret of her genius and power. America is great because she is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great

286 z  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:30:59pm
287 irish rose  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:31:20pm

re: #254 mama winger

Remember mama, it's only a discussion and just words on the screen. I know that it doesn't feel like that to you, but it is the truth.

I know that you hate some of what you are reading here and are personally offended by it. I see some things that I don't like on these discussion threads as well... but you can't control what people say or think. You can only control your own reaction to it.

Make yourself a nice cup of tea and visit some of the other threads for a while, it's nice to have you back.

288 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:31:47pm

'nite

289 blue_like_jazz  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:31:55pm

re: #264 MandyManners

because who gets to decide what is "worthy" of being eliminated?

what if one of the eggs with the cancer gene that wasn't allowed to be naturally fertilized also had the DNA to become the next margaret thatcher or beverly sills?

290 DesertSage  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:32:01pm

re: #281 mama winger

You have no idea how much .....

If I'm here, and I see someone harassing you because of your beliefs, you better believe that I will come to your defense!

291 tokyobk  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:32:16pm

re: #265 ggt

It's the narrow interpretation of both religion and science that I don't understand. I see no conflict between the Bible and Evolution. .


There is no conflict as long as the bible becomes allegorical (a day might mean 1 million years) etc...

That position though was forced on religion by scientific discovery.

At the time the founding texts were written they were meant to be believed.

I don't fear Christians directly, however, I am wary of any backwards steps in forcing measurable discovery into the confines of any of the religious texts which are as narrow in their understanding as to be expected from the limited world views of the men who obviously wrote them (and whose limitations in language, geography, history, "science" are very obvious).

292 pingjockey  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:32:16pm

re: #282 jcm
No more bug juice for me. Real kool aid. And real potatos not instant. Yaaaay!

293 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:32:19pm

re: #285 A Kiwi Infidel

The Churches didn't write either the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution. Men who understood we needed a separation between government and the clergy did.

294 sngnsgt  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:32:24pm

re: #260 jcm

LOL!

295 ryannon  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:32:32pm

Musical interlude:

296 yochanan  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:32:45pm

re: #286 z

AYN RAND was a thinker but if what William F. Buckley said had any truth as a person she left a lot to be desired.

297 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:33:49pm

re: #291 tokyobk

That's the crux of my biscuit; We can destroy ourselves much quicker and easier than outsiders.

298 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:33:59pm

re: #293 Sharmuta

The Churches didn't write either the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution. Men who understood we needed a separation between government and the clergy did.


Here, ladies and gentlemen, is a man who cant seperate a church from the man who attends, believes and worships within it.

299 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:33:59pm

re: #259 wolfie

What are silders?


Dear lady, they are actually White Castle Hamburgers.
The are really small & delicious. They are really greasy and the primary cause of death in the Midwest, but sooooo good!
I will get you an order of onion rings to go with them.
A party for your mouth!

300 mama winger  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:34:07pm

re: #290 DesertSage

If I'm here, and I see someone harassing you because of your beliefs, you better believe that I will come to your defense!

It's like someone described to me - Like walking into a party of your good friends, and finding out that they really think you're a weirdo.

And then they compare you to nazis.

301 quickjustice  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:34:11pm

re: #146 experiencedtraveller

As pointed out by his own second-in-command, Ellis Spear, in his personal diary, Joshua Chamberlain "gilded the lily" about his actions on Little Round Top, exaggerating his own importance. According to Spear, Chamberlain did not order the "wheeling" maneuver he later claimed; rather, the men of the 20th Maine, having been ordered to advance to cover the wounded, found themselves exposed to enemy sniper fire, and began an advance spontaneously, without orders.

Chamberlain and Spear, seeing what was happening, then ordered the rest of the unit to join the advance. Chamberlain then gave himself rather more credit than he deserved in his official report. Spear and Chamberlain argued about this for decades after the battle.

It's all described here: [Link: www.suite101.com...]

302 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:34:29pm

I'm outta here for the night.
A very good evening to all of you
.... and another hug for {mama}

303 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:34:52pm

re: #298 A Kiwi Infidel

1) I'm not a man.
2) You don't know me, so take your assumptions and shove it.

304 DesertSage  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:34:58pm

re: #293 Sharmuta

The Churches didn't write either the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution. Men who understood we needed a separation between government and the clergy did.

The same men who said that we were Endowed By Our Creator?

*just playing Devils advocate :')

305 jcm  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:35:04pm

re: #292 pingjockey

No more bug juice for me. Real kool aid. And real potatos not instant. Yaaaay!

Come you, liked the red bug juice you can admit it here.
Bet you liked SOS in the morning!
;-P

306 grumpy old codger  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:35:11pm

re: #264 MandyManners
In order to produce the one "perfect Specimen" they had to abort 5-6 fetuses. Need I go one?

307 Tigger2005  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:35:17pm

re: #165 A Kiwi Infidel

Given that from 1776, the Bible formed the foudation of your great country, I would say that Christian fundamentalists are the very least of your problem. You should be more concerned that freedom of speech is being undermined, (it might start with shutting up the freedom of Christians to preach their "hate speech" but it will arrive on your doorstep soon enough), the removal of your right to bear arms for the protection of your families freedom (you may have that right now, but if part one comes true, gun owners will soon become criminals). And then, when your rights have been removed under the pretext of protecting you from fundamentalists, its all over Red Rover.

Correction. The Bible is "a" foundation for our great country. If it was "the" foundation, it would have been declared so in the Constitution.

Actually our country has many strong foundations, stretching back to Hammurabi's Code, to the Law of the Hebrews, to Greek Democracy, to the Roman Republic, to the Protestant Reformation, to the Renaissance and the Enlightenment, to the Magna Carta and English Common Law.

Without attacking Christianity, I point to the historical fact that, in the thousand years that the Church held absolute power in the Western world, there was no democracy to be found anywhere. Yet just around 200-300 years after the Reformation, the Renaissance, and the Enlightenment, the greatest democratic civilization in human history was born.

One of our Founding Fathers, Thomas Jefferson, had the gall to actually REWRITE THE NEW TESTAMENT to reflect his belief that Jesus was an inspired teacher who priests had turned into a god in order to gain power over other men. Sheer blasphemy.

Again, I am not attacking the Bible or Christians or denying their contributions to modern Western civilization. But no, the Bible is not THE foundation of that civilization, it is ONE foundation.

308 Killian Bundy  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:35:27pm

re: #259 wolfie

What are silders?

White Castle

/don't forget the onion chips

309 jcm  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:35:30pm

re: #302 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I'm outta here for the night.
A very good evening to all of you
.... and another hug for {mama}

Night pBMb!

310 mama winger  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:35:33pm

re: #302 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Thank you sweeetie - and goodnight to you :)

have a good one

311 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:35:35pm

re: #237 blue_like_jazz

people like dawkins ("who's to say hitler wasn't right?")

Got a reference for that "quote"?
/Betcha don't

312 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:35:49pm

re: #293 Sharmuta


And thankyou, theparson, if you are still reading, because it is that sort of post that allows my sin of anger to creep in and try to get me to react badly.

313 yochanan  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:36:04pm

I don't see the benifit of this subject. nothing positive.

314 itellu3times  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:36:34pm

re: #178 theparson

And to my friends on the other side. I admit an ignorance concerning this subject. I am not a scientist. I confess to a belief in the Biblical account of creation.

I'm sorry, my friend, you sound like a fine fellow, but I gave this a down ding. If you have ignorance of the subject, then all I can do with your beliefs in what you know is to shrug, and hope it works out well for you. It seems inappropriate even to talk about the other side, in such a case. I'm of the opinion there really aren't two sides anyway, except for the informed side and the ignorant side, faith and science cannot really be in conflict if you get them both right!

315 pingjockey  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:36:45pm

re: #305 jcm
Nah, liked the orange better. I like SOS as long as it is real chipped beef!

316 Thanos  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:36:49pm

re: #94 Salamantis

Sal: I guess you didn't see what Charles found out about Ol' Dinesh:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

It goes hand in glove with some morally twisted Chrisitan YEC bloggers carrying all kinds of anti-islam blog bling, but then linking to Harun Yahya.. The Hadith are right in his sidebar.

317 wolfie  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:36:58pm

re: #255 Salamantis

Actually, Greco-Roman philosophical ideas were at least as important as Judeo-Christian religious concepts in the writing of the US Constitution.

Even more important was the English Common Law, BTW.

318 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:37:05pm

re: #307 Tigger2005

Oh- but you'll have assumptions made about you for pointing out the historical record.

319 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:37:21pm

re: #303 Sharmuta

1) I'm not a man.
2) You don't know me, so take your assumptions and shove it.


Duly shoved ma'am, but you still missed the point

320 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:37:23pm

re: #221 anduril3019

If an openly Christian organization gives out materials that promote a creationist world view, how is this underhanded?

Sal: When they get a law passed by a fundamentalist legislature so they can insinuate cynically renamed sectarian religious doctrine into that state's public high school science class, I would hardly call that aboveboard.

321 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:37:23pm

re: #303 Sharmuta

I'm not a man

Who'd have ever known?

(That's a follow-thru on that guy last night, Sharm)
(-:
have a great evening, I'm gone

322 yochanan  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:37:38pm

i for one feel the pain coming from MAMA WINGER and it makes me sad

323 jcm  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:37:48pm

re: #315 pingjockey

Nah, liked the orange better. I like SOS as long as it is real chipped beef!

We got good sausage SOS at the end of the quarter when they were trying to spend all the funds.

324 Pvt Bin Jammin  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:38:20pm

re: #300 mama winger
I certainly would never think you were a weirdo, {Mama Winger}. You are much loved by myself and here at LGF.

325 DesertSage  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:38:32pm

re: #300 mama winger

It's like someone described to me - Like walking into a party of your good friends, and finding out that they really think you're a weirdo.

And then they compare you to nazis.

Mama, Lao Stinky said a few days ago that belief in God does not preclude belief in evolution...and visa versa.

Your belief is sacred. If anyone calls you a Nazi because of it, then they are way out of line...and they will be called on it.

326 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:38:34pm

re: #312 A Kiwi Infidel

IT'S A HISTORICAL FACT! Facts upset you, do they? Our Founders felt the need to have a separation between Church and State. Americans cherish this.

327 Thanos  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:38:40pm

re: #177 Boogberg

Ah yes. The "John Birch Society". What the hell's up with those weirdos?

They are hanging with Pat Buchanan and Lew Rockwell nowadays. You can also find them at VDARE, Chalcedon, Stormfront, etc.

328 pingjockey  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:38:46pm

re: #323 jcm
Sausage is okay. Don't like it when they use hamburger.

329 mama winger  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:38:48pm

re: #318 Sharmuta

Oh- but you'll have assumptions made about you for pointing out the historical record.

I thought I read some of your comments encouraging others to grow a thicker skin.

Might be applicable here.

330 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:39:01pm

re: #308 Killian Bundy

White Castle

/don't forget the onion chips

When we were youts, two in the mornig. Nothig better!

331 jcbunga  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:39:02pm

re: #312 A Kiwi Infidel

And thankyou, theparson, if you are still reading, because it is that sort of post that allows my sin of anger to creep in and try to get me to react badly.

I have Kiwi friends, and it is clear to me that we all will sleep safely in our beds as long as there are Marines and Kiwi's--especially the All Blacks--between us and the bad guys.

332 ggt  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:39:06pm

re: #239 mama winger

Mama, I've said it in another thread, more than once. I think the subject is reft with labels. It's hard not to get around them.

I don't think we have a common understanding of the definition of words such as:

Christian Fundamentalist --when I think this word I think of the FDLS, those who want to persecute homosexuals and think women need to be controlled.

Darwinism --when I hear this word, I think, whacked out scientists who are more concerned with people's belief or lack of belief than in pursing empirical science.

Evolution --I think of --Charles Darwin and his writings.

I apoligize if you feel I lumped you and other Lizards into the Fundamentalist (as I think of Fundamentalist). I feel constrained by lack of property terminology and common understand of what words mean.

I welcome Lizard input --or even better a common dictionary.

333 mama winger  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:39:46pm

re: #325 DesertSage

I'm keeping that ring you sent stole for me.

334 LeePro  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:40:01pm

re: #265 ggt

It's the narrow interpretation of both religion and science that I don't understand. I see no conflict between the Bible and Evolution.

I also believe teh 10 commandments should be displayed in every court room. It is the basis of our way of life. I don't think one has to be a Religious Person to understand or belive that.

It's the combination of Reason and Judeo-Christian value that makes us what we are.

I just see fanatics on both sides wanting absolute power and I think that desire is at odds with the values of both.

BRAVO!

335 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:40:10pm

re: #319 A Kiwi Infidel

Duly shoved ma'am, but you still missed the point

No- I haven't. More than the Bible went into the forming of this country. Please see Tigger2005's post at #307.

336 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:40:15pm

re: #322 yochanan

i for one feel the pain coming from MAMA WINGER and it makes me sad

Yeah

337 Tigger2005  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:40:42pm

re: #246 yochanan

FRANKLY I DON'T KNOW WHY THIS WHOLE DEBATE IS BECOMING SO IMPORTANT AT LGF. FRANKLY I DON'T GIVE A TINKERS DAMN ABOUT I.D., EVOLUTION ET AL. I CARE ABOUT ISLMO FASCISM, THE WAR ON TERROR, IRAN TRYING TO GET NUKES TO USE ON US OR ISRAEL. I FEEL THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WILL BE DAMAGING TO LGF. AND DEVIDE THE BLOG AND COMMUNITY. AND FOR WHAT BENIFIT?

AND YES I AM YELLING

Why should vigorous debate be damaging to a true community?

The best friends are those who can argue their asses off and share a drink and a laugh afterwards.

338 MandyManners  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:40:48pm

re: #306 grumpy old codger

In order to produce the one "perfect Specimen" they had to abort 5-6 fetuses. Need I go one?

A fertilized egg is a fetus? Since when?

339 ASU86PE  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:41:17pm

re: #293 Sharmuta

Actually the Declaration of Independence and The U.S. Constitution depend on biblical logic.

340 wolfie  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:41:24pm

re: #273 A Kiwi Infidel

I am trying to find the quote that goes something like this.

I tried to find what made America great. I searched .........wherever.... but then I found it, it was in her churches, they were full every Sunday. That is what makes America great. The day America's churches are no longer full will be the day when America is no longer great.

Go to Church on Sunday, Salamantis?

Alexis deToqueville, in Democracy in America.

341 blue_like_jazz  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:41:59pm

re: #311 Killgore Trout

Got a reference for that "quote"?
/Betcha don't

sorry to disappoint

342 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:42:15pm

re: #337 Tigger2005

Why should vigorous debate be damaging to a true community?

The best friends are those who can argue their asses off and share a drink and a laugh afterwards.


Thats right. There shoud not be such acrimony. The subject is facinating.

343 Thanos  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:42:19pm

re: #239 mama winger

I am a Christian fundamentalist. I believe the Bible to be the word of God. I endeavor to live my life according to my beliefs.

I am neither dangerous, a lunatic or comparable to radical islamists.

I in no way reject the core values on which our country was founded. On the contrary, I have worked all of my adult life to uphold these values, as have the children I raised both in the church and through Christian school.

If any one of you dare to question my patriotism, love of liberty, or dedication to this country's principles. and DARE to compare me to the most rabid and murderous scum of the earth..... because I think differently than you.......

I will not even grace that with a reply.


My son will protect you anyway next deployment.


Mama, we all love you and yours. However there are extreme fundamentalists who would mess with the constitution given the chance. There are those who call for stoning of adulterers, children who strike their parents, and gays.
They particularly hate article VI, and Ammendment 1.

344 yochanan  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:42:55pm

re: #336 opnion

one of the reasons i don't debate RELIGION

345 Boogberg  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:43:02pm

re: #304 DesertSage

The same men who said that we were Endowed By Our Creator?

*just playing Devils advocate :')

A few of 'em thought slavery was cool, too. But then, everyone who was anyone was doing it.

346 mama winger  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:43:05pm

re: #332 ggt

I appreciate that terminology can be loose, and lead to misunderstandings. That's why I think it is important to use these loaded words very carefully. I am sure I took your statement in a way that it was not meant - It's just that there are a lot of others just like me who DO consider themselves fundamentalists, without that negative baggage attached.

To me - being a fundamentalist means taking the Bible at its plain reading and living accordingly.

To me - it is the most positive of life! I revel and rejoice in my relationship with God, and wouldn't turn my back on it no matter the cost.

347 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:43:28pm

re: #237 blue_like_jazz

that is scary as hell.

couple that technology with people like dawkins ("who's to say hitler wasn't right?") and you've got a eugenics nightmare on your hands.

I just googled the phrase "Who's to say Hitler wasn't right" and got zero hits. Please furnish the link where Dawkins said such a thing.

348 mama winger  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:44:05pm

ggt - thank you again for your response - I appreciate it.

349 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:44:26pm

re: #326 Sharmuta

IT'S A HISTORICAL FACT! Facts upset you, do they? Our Founders felt the need to have a separation between Church and State. Americans cherish this.


Read this, then,

It seems there is an awfully large number of references to the Almight God.

Now theres a fact.

You want to prove otherwise? You will fail. You will fail because your founding fathers always assumed that the Worship of the Almighty God was a given with the home, the family, the workplace, the Church, the halls of power, the benches of justice.

It was a bad assumption, sadly.

350 blue_like_jazz  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:44:56pm

re: #347 Salamantis

I just googled the phrase "Who's to say Hitler wasn't right" and got zero hits. Please furnish the link where Dawkins said such a thing.

see my #341

351 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:44:59pm

re: #339 ASU86PE

Was there something factually incorrect about my #293?

352 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:45:03pm
353 itellu3times  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:45:04pm

re: #347 Salamantis

I just googled the phrase "Who's to say Hitler wasn't right" and got zero hits. Please furnish the link where Dawkins said such a thing.

I don't care to even read the links, but you get some candidates from:
[Link: www.google.com...]

354 LeePro  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:45:06pm

re: #280 pingjockey

Navy slang for hamburgers.

when spelled correctly...

Isn't it "sliders"...? Not silders...

heh

355 sngnsgt  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:45:08pm

re: #344 yochanan

one of the reasons i don't debate RELIGION

Ditto, the only way to win that game is not to play at all.

356 Alouette  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:45:13pm

re: #229 opnion

Hey, I'm going out for silders. Anybody want anything?

What are silders?

357 mama winger  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:45:26pm

re: #324 Pvt Bin Jammin

Thank so much. that means a lot.

358 wolfie  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:45:46pm

re: #291 tokyobk

The idea that a "day" in Genesis might mean a million years dates back in Christianity at least to the 2nd century. (I'll bet it's older in Judaism, BTW, tho I don't know.)
It wasn't "forced" on anybody by "modern science.""

359 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:45:47pm

re: #347 Salamantis


I just googled "Bible's influence on American Constitution" and got 255,000 hits.

360 sparrowlake  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:46:05pm

re: #239 mama winger

I am a Christian fundamentalist. I believe the Bible to be the word of God. I endeavor to live my life according to my beliefs.
I am neither dangerous, a lunatic or comparable to radical islamists.
I in no way reject the core values on which our country was founded. On the contrary, I have worked all of my adult life to uphold these values, as have the children I raised both in the church and through Christian school.
If any one of you dare to question my patriotism, love of liberty, or dedication to this country's principles. and DARE to compare me to the most rabid and murderous scum of the earth..... because I think differently than you.......
I will not even grace that with a reply.
My son will protect you anyway next deployment.

Hi Mama! Good to see you.
As you well know, a Christian fundamentalist is not the same as a religious zealot.
I am confident and comfortable that good Christians like you have not and would never want to impose your religious beliefs on others by way of legislation or force.
You have my mutual respect and tolerance.
Please don't let some of the ill-considered comments here get to you.

361 yochanan  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:46:33pm

re: #349 A Kiwi Infidel

IT wasn't all or nothing with the nation's founders. most of them believed in G-D. what they did not want was a STATE RELIGION which isn't the same as what current secularists believe now. THE ACLU IS WRONG HERE.

362 spacejesus  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:46:40pm

re: #339 ASU86PE

Actually the Declaration of Independence and The U.S. Constitution depend on biblical logic.


what?

363 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:46:41pm

re: #349 A Kiwi Infidel

That's not the Constitution of the United States, which is the supreme law of this country, the Preamble to which mentions "God" exactly zero times.

364 Josephine  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:46:43pm

re: #79 wolfie

Looking at it from a catholic (all times and places) perspective, it's a very tiny segment of Christianity.

I have no idea what percentage of Christians are Pentecostal; that is my experience with young earth creationism based on a literal interpretation of the Bible.

You will see some familiar talking points in the "Beliefs" sections of the Assemblies of God website:

Creationism

The Doctrine of Creation

Wiki says of the church:

"The World Assemblies of God Fellowship, or Assemblies of God for short, is the world's largest Pentecostal denomination, with over 283,413 churches and outstations in over 200 countries (including 12,311 churches in the U.S.) and approximately 57 million adherents worldwide."

365 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:46:53pm

re: #243 ggt

Fundamentalist Christians who want to dictate what both you and I should believe.

IIRC there is nothing in science that says the earth wasn't created in 7 days. Without a Sun and Moon, a day could have been millions of years.

Exploring the unknown is a danger to those who want power. Refusing to explore the unknown is a danger to all of us.

Sal: I think the 'seven day' thing is stretching it a bit...(well, actually just the opposite; truncating it...but you know what I mean...;~)

366 mobaby  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:46:59pm

re: #97 Killgore Trout

If they succeed in undermining science education in this country (which I don't hink they will) they are a far greater threat that radical Islam. If they succeed we will be a 3rd world country in a few short generations. It would take radical Islam much longer to destroy us.

Believe me - there's nothing to undermine. Check out your local public school. In my neighborhood, undermining the public school would mean you actually want to change the status quo and teach something for a change. Of course, it would help if the parents actually cared. And I think you might be shocked that many of those you fear are destroying education actually do care that their kids learn - and they tend to excel.

367 wolfie  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:47:10pm

re: #299 opnion

Yum !

368 mama winger  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:47:24pm

re: #360 sparrowlake

thank you sparrowlake. I appreciate that more than you know.

369 BBev  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:47:26pm

re: #246 yochanan

FRANKLY I DON'T KNOW WHY THIS WHOLE DEBATE IS BECOMING SO IMPORTANT AT LGF. FRANKLY I DON'T GIVE A TINKERS DAMN ABOUT I.D., EVOLUTION ET AL. I CARE ABOUT ISLMO FASCISM, THE WAR ON TERROR, IRAN TRYING TO GET NUKES TO USE ON US OR ISRAEL. I FEEL THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WILL BE DAMAGING TO LGF. AND DEVIDE THE BLOG AND COMMUNITY. AND FOR WHAT BENIFIT?

AND YES I AM YELLING

CHARLES I LOVE YA DUDE AND RESPECT WHAT YOU ARE DOING BUT WE HAVE BIGGER FISH TO FRY RIGHT NOW, CAN WE GET BACK TO THIS LATER?

370 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:47:27pm

re: #359 A Kiwi Infidel

I googled "obama brilliant capitalist" and got 1,000,000 hits.

371 Alouette  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:47:28pm

re: #299 opnion

Dear lady, they are actually White Castle Hamburgers.
The are really small & delicious. They are really greasy and the primary cause of death in the Midwest, but sooooo good!
I will get you an order of onion rings to go with them.
A party for your mouth!

I thought those are SLIDERS!

372 pingjockey  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:47:33pm

re: #354 LeePro
Mwahaha! Didn't even catch that. Plus everyone who mentioned White Castle made me sad. Haven't had one of those burgers since 1985. Don't have them in San Diego or up here in Wash. state.

373 experiencedtraveller  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:47:37pm

re: #301 quickjustice

As pointed out by his own second-in-command, Ellis Spear, in his personal diary, Joshua Chamberlain "gilded the lily" about his actions on Little Round Top, exaggerating his own importance. According to Spear, Chamberlain did not order the "wheeling" maneuver he later claimed; rather, the men of the 20th Maine, having been ordered to advance to cover the wounded, found themselves exposed to enemy sniper fire, and began an advance spontaneously, without orders.

Chamberlain and Spear, seeing what was happening, then ordered the rest of the unit to join the advance. Chamberlain then gave himself rather more credit than he deserved in his official report. Spear and Chamberlain argued about this for decades after the battle.

It's all described here: [Link: www.suite101.com...]

Thanks! Very interesting stuff. Whatever exactly transpired in all that chaos we can be sure that Chamberlain understood the enormity of the position and ordered bayonets when the ammunition ran out.

Chamberlain's book, The Passing of the Armies, is on my list.

374 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:47:39pm

I gotta go, but it has been a nice debate.

Thanks Mama, I will remember your faithfulness and pray for you, your family and your son.

375 Pvt Bin Jammin  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:47:49pm

re: #357 mama winger
You're very welcome.

You can't believe how many lizards have been missing you. Good to see you back.

376 offendi  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:47:49pm

Wonder where Wesley Clark stands on all this?

Darwin doesn't have executive experience?

377 yochanan  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:48:06pm

i want to give ((((MAMA WINGER)))) A HUG.

378 mama winger  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:48:14pm

re: #366 mobaby

And I think you might be shocked that many of those you fear are destroying education actually do care that their kids learn - and they tend to excel.

A thousand ups

379 ggt  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:48:16pm

re: #304 DesertSage

The same men who said that we were Endowed By Our Creator?

*just playing Devils advocate :')

I think that is an especially important quote. Yes, rights granted to us by Our Creator, not determined by a king, an empress, or a bishop, or a pope. No human, no one on Earth and grant or deny our rights.

I think it is interesting that the Founders did not write anything to define or limit one's understanding of Our Creator.

380 mama winger  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:48:42pm

re: #374 A Kiwi Infidel

I gotta go, but it has been a nice debate.

Thanks Mama, I will remember your faithfulness and pray for you, your family and your son.

Thank you sweetheart.

381 yochanan  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:49:18pm

re: #369 BBev

after we have defeated islmo fascism and terrorism.

382 tokyobk  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:49:19pm

re: #358 wolfie

The idea that a "day" in Genesis might mean a million years dates back in Christianity at least to the 2nd century. (I'll bet it's older in Judaism, BTW, tho I don't know.)
It wasn't "forced" on anybody by "modern science.""

The use of the word 'yom' in the Torah means day. 'sheshet yamim' means seven days. period.

There were rabbis as early the Talmud who began to spin that.

It was the result of starting to figure out through observation and measurement and an attempt to bridge the gap between actual and biblical.

I am all for religious tolerance, obviously, as long as it does not govern my ability to think and observe and measure without any sense of wading into heresy.

383 mama winger  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:49:23pm

re: #377 yochanan

i want to give ((((MAMA WINGER)))) A HUG.

I LOVE IT WHEN YOU YELL "HUG" ! ! !

lol

{yochanan}

:)

384 Thanos  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:49:30pm

re: #339 ASU86PE

Actually the Declaration of Independence and The U.S. Constitution depend on biblical logic.

G-D is not mentioned once in the constitution, Church does not appear. Religion appears in Ammendment one, and in article VI the word religious appears.

Democracy appeared before Christianity, and Republics did as well.

The constitution in particular veers away from religion specifically because they did not want a wrangle between proponents of various state sanctioned religions established by state constitutions.

The purpose of the American Revolution was fullfilled when we overthrew the divine right of kings on our shores.

385 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:50:06pm
386 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:50:34pm

re: #341 blue_like_jazz

"Who's to say Hitler wasn't right" isn't in that article you linked to. Is this how you display your superior moral values; by fabricating quotes? Once again I ask you the provide a link to the "quote" you attributed to Dawkins. It doesn't exist, now does it?

387 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:50:41pm

re: #344 yochanan

one of the reasons i don't debate RELIGION

Sox & Cleveland tied one to one in the 7th.
I was out ther last night. Whoa, sell out on a Monday night!
Go Sox!

388 Slumbering Behemoth  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:50:44pm

re: #165 A Kiwi Infidel

Given that from 1776, the Bible formed the foudation of your great country

Please explain.

389 sngnsgt  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:51:16pm

re: #356 Alouette

White Castle!

390 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:51:19pm

re: #252 A Kiwi Infidel

And, that, ladies and gentlemen, is spoken by the sort of person who was and still is prepared to die for the freedom and liberty of her country, her family, her children and even those liberal cowards who will not fight. One up-ding.

Sal: I am a US military veteran and a person who is convinced by the massive mountain of scientific evidence supporting evolutionary theory. I am just as patriotic, and just as antijihadi, as anyone here. I hazard to wager that I am far from the only evolutionary theory supporter to serve his country.

391 yochanan  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:51:33pm

re: #387 opnion

go sox baseball i will debate.

392 anduril3019  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:51:38pm

re: #320 Salamantis

Who are they? What law did they get passed? What did they insinuate? Cynical? Sectarian religious doctrine, OK, I'll give you that one. What state?

My comment was related directly to the article about asking that schools in New Zealand distribute their materials. Again, where is the underhandedness? Take it easy. Maybe you know something about this I don't, but the linked article says nothing about anything you mentioned. You're sounding just a tad defensive.

393 itellu3times  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:51:44pm

re: #341 blue_like_jazz

sorry to disappoint

“Yes, absolutely fascinating.” His response was immediate. “What’s to prevent us from saying Hitler wasn’t right? I mean, that is a genuinely difficult question. But whatever [defines morality], it’s not the Bible. If it was, we’d be stoning people for breaking the Sabbath.”

I was stupefied. He had readily conceded that his own philosophical position did not offer a rational basis for moral judgments. His intellectual honesty was refreshing, if somewhat disturbing on this point.

Well, I don't want to wade into this entirely, but I will offer a link to perhaps the most famous of secular attempts to offer a rational basis for moral judgements, the point being they are quite common, and often differ very little from the guidelines others get from religion.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

394 sparrowlake  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:52:21pm

re: #368 mama winger

{Mama} I missed you.

395 Boogberg  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:52:40pm

re: #327 Thanos

They are hanging with Pat Buchanan and Lew Rockwell nowadays. You can also find them at VDARE, Chalcedon, Stormfront, etc.

I might have fucking guessed. Pathetic.

396 LeePro  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:52:42pm

re: #290 DesertSage

If I'm here, and I see someone harassing you because of your beliefs, you better believe that I will come to your defense!

Yayyyyyyyyyyy, SAGE ! ! !

You're a { { {SWEETIE} } } !

He means it, Mama!

397 SpaceJesus  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:52:55pm

People who believe our (US) system of government has anything to do with Christianity need to go back to history class and try not to fail this time.

398 solomonpanting  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:52:58pm

re: #285 A Kiwi Infidel

Not until I went into the churches of America and heard her pulpits flame with righteous­ness did I understand the secret of her genius and power. America is great because she is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great
...

I suppose one could make the case that "righteous­ness" may include notions of scientific thought, or that one may be righteous and adhere to scientific thought, or that righteousness is from Mars and scientific thought is from Venus. But I don't necessarily see how one precludes the other.

399 Slumbering Behemoth  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:53:02pm

re: #173 A Kiwi Infidel

Your nation was founded on the values and morals contained in the Bible, not liberalism.

I take it you're not familiar with the term "classical liberalism".

400 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:53:20pm

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For that reason alone, people of other faiths have been afforded freedom of worship here." - Patrick Henry.

401 nyc redneck  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:53:20pm

re: #300 mama winger

It's like someone described to me - Like walking into a party of your good friends, and finding out that they really think you're a weirdo.

And then they compare you to nazis.

mama winger, you are my favorite.
a combination of intelligence, wit, humor, goodness, kindness and a solid patriot. i really admire you. and respect your religious views.
you are much appreciated here at lgf by everyone.

402 yochanan  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:53:27pm

for this Jew religion is a personal matter. I don't debate it.

403 ASU86PE  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:53:30pm

re: #50 eon
But the logic is flawed. I cannot replicate the action of today just as you cannot but yet we know it happened with logic and certainty.
Stop throwing repeated outcomes as a discrediting of creation. It will never be replicated just as today.

404 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:53:41pm

re: #367 wolfie
I'm on my way!

405 BBev  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:54:12pm

Charles to respond to my 369.. I have a moonbat family that is voting way wrong from what I would expect, one voting one way others voting the other. This election is just so fucked up and our way of life to me is on the line. I will not be a good socialist.

406 kansas  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:54:49pm

re: #370 Sharmuta

I googled "obama brilliant capitalist" and got 1,000,000 hits.

I only got 1/2 million on that but got over 6 million on Obama Terrorist.

407 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:55:09pm
408 yochanan  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:55:34pm

re: #397 SpaceJesus

it wasn't about christian theology BUT IT WAS A LOT ABOUT CHRISTIAN CULTURE. GO LOOK AT GEO. WASHINGTON AND THANKSGIVING DAY.

409 spaceman  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:55:44pm

If there is one true thing I have noticed about people, it's that at the end of the day, most will believe what they want to believe. And this applies double to politics.

410 BBev  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:56:13pm

re: #381 yochanan

after we have defeated islmo fascism and terrorism.

Right on. I understand why Charles is doing what he is doing and I agree with him.

411 mama winger  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:56:50pm

re: #401 nyc redneck

I have missed you sweetie.

Thanks so much for your kindness.

I think I'll sign off now - goodnight everyone and please treat each other with the thoughtfulness and respect we have all come to treasure here on LGF.

We hang together or we hang seperately, eh?

412 ggt  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:56:55pm

re: #346 mama winger

Mama, can we come-up with a term that accurately describes the whacko's on the Christian side? I call the Islamawhackos, Islamawhackos. Other's have used Islamafascists and other terms.

The MSM does us no help when they use the term Christian Fundamentalist either.

I personally don't think the whackos are particulary Christian either.

How about just "religious whacko's"?

413 zmdavid  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:56:56pm

If we throw out the notion of creationism, can we still claim to be endowed by our creator with inalienable rights, or are those gone, too? I suppose it depends on your definition of creationism.

414 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:57:02pm

re: #406 kansas

My point was that googling something and spouting the results of an internet search is proof of nothing.

415 ggt  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:57:13pm

BTW, if I haven't asked lately, Thank your son for me.

416 yochanan  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:57:45pm

re: #410 BBev

AT THIS POINT I DON'T UNDERSTAND IT. but i will be respectful as this is not my house.

417 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:57:57pm

re: #273 A Kiwi Infidel

I am trying to find the quote that goes something like this.

I tried to find what made America great. I searched .........wherever.... but then I found it, it was in her churches, they were full every Sunday. That is what makes America great. The day America's churches are no longer full will be the day when America is no longer great.

Go to Church on Sunday, Salamantis?

After a fashion, although it's mot on sundays. I am a Pagan.

Now we'll see how religiously tolerant YOU are; we already had to sue the US for a whole decade so that Pagan military members who gave their last full measure of devotion on the battlefields of Afghanistan and Iraq got to be interred in military cemetaries with the symbol of their faith on their headstone.

418 blue_like_jazz  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:58:02pm

re: #386 Killgore Trout

"Who's to say Hitler wasn't right" isn't in that article you linked to. Is this how you display your superior moral values; by fabricating quotes? Once again I ask you the provide a link to the "quote" you attributed to Dawkins. It doesn't exist, now does it?

um, YES IT DOES EXIST.

scroll about halfway down to where it says The Rising Popularity of Atheism and read down a few paragraphs.

and i expect an apology.

419 tokyobk  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:58:25pm

re: #408 yochanan

it wasn't about christian theology BUT IT WAS A LOT ABOUT CHRISTIAN CULTURE. GO LOOK AT GEO. WASHINGTON AND THANKSGIVING DAY.


Agreed. I am neither white nor Christian nor Anglo-Saxon but it is obvious to me that it was a collection of traits from that culture that got things going in America and allowed for other influences. The deist part was very important as well.

420 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:58:29pm
421 opnion  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:58:57pm

re: #408 yochanan

it wasn't about christian theology BUT IT WAS A LOT ABOUT CHRISTIAN CULTURE. GO LOOK AT GEO. WASHINGTON AND THANKSGIVING DAY.

Yeah thats it. We were not founded as a Theocracy, but there was a lot of Judeo/Chistian ethos in the founding of this nation. There just was.

422 LeePro  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 6:59:52pm

re: #306 grumpy old codger

In order to produce the one "perfect Specimen" they had to abort 5-6 fetuses. Need I go one?

Where the hell did you get aborted fetuses?

"Fertilized eggs" are not aborted (KILLED) fetuses!

423 kansas  Tue, Jul 1, 2008 7:00:13pm