LGF

The Defeat of 'Intelligent Design' in Pennsylvania

Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 4:41:02 pm PDT

Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District is a landmark case in the 150-Year Creationism War. The Dover School District voted in late 2004 to require the teaching of “intelligent design” as an alternative to the scientific theory of evolution (heavily influenced by the Discovery Institute’s propaganda), and they were promptly sued by a group of eleven outraged parents.

The resulting decision was an utter defeat for the intelligent design shills; star witness Michael Behe was forced to admit under cross examination that there are no peer-reviewed articles by ID advocates, and that the definition of “scientific theory” he was attempting to promote was so vague it could also be applied to astrology. (Despite this crushing blow, the ID movement refuses to go quietly into that dark night.)

The judge in the case, John E. Jones III, a Republican appointed by George W. Bush, ruled that the school district’s policy was unconstitutional, and issued a 139 page decision (available here) that’s remarkable for the conclusions it reaches about the origins and nature of the “intelligent design” movement, and very harsh in its criticism of the groups and individuals who promote it.

Aspects of the judge’s decision bear directly on recent discussions on these issues at LGF; here are some of the more interesting quotes:

“For the reasons that follow, we conclude that the religious nature of ID [intelligent design] would be readily apparent to an objective observer, adult or child” (page 24)

“A significant aspect of the IDM [intelligent design movement] is that despite Defendants’ protestations to the contrary, it describes ID as a religious argument. In that vein, the writings of leading ID proponents reveal that the designer postulated by their argument is the God of Christianity.” (page 26)

“The evidence at trial demonstrates that ID is nothing less than the progeny of creationism” (page 31)

“The overwhelming evidence at trial established that ID is a religious view, a mere re-labeling of creationism, and not a scientific theory.” (page 43)

“Throughout the trial and in various submissions to the Court, Defendants vigorously argue that the reading of the statement is not “teaching” ID but instead is merely “making students aware of it.” In fact, one consistency among the Dover School Board members’ testimony, which was marked by selective memories and outright lies under oath, as will be discussed in more detail below, is that they did not think they needed to be knowledgeable about ID because it was not being taught to the students. We disagree.” (footnote 7 on page 46)

“After a searching review of the record and applicable caselaw, we find that while ID arguments may be true, a proposition on which the Court takes no position, ID is not science. We find that ID fails on three different levels, any one of which is sufficient to preclude a determination that ID is science. They are: (1) ID violates the centuries-old ground rules of science by invoking and permitting supernatural causation; (2) the argument of irreducible complexity, central to ID, employs the same flawed and illogical contrived dualism that doomed creation science in the 1980’s; and (3) ID’s negative attacks on evolution have been refuted by the scientific community.” (page 64)

“[T]he one textbook [Pandas] to which the Dover ID Policy directs students contains outdated concepts and flawed science, as recognized by even the defense experts in this case.” (pages 86–87)

ID’s backers have sought to avoid the scientific scrutiny which we have now determined that it cannot withstand by advocating that the controversy, but not ID itself, should be taught in science class. This tactic is at best disingenuous, and at worst a canard. The goal of the IDM is not to encourage critical thought, but to foment a revolution which would supplant evolutionary theory with ID.” (page 89)

“Accordingly, we find that the secular purposes claimed by the Board amount to a pretext for the Board’s real purpose, which was to promote religion in the public school classroom, in violation of the Establishment Clause.” (page 132)

In his Conclusion on pages 136–138 of 139 of this decision he writes:

The proper application of both the endorsement and Lemon tests to the facts of this case makes it abundantly clear that the Board’s ID Policy violates the Establishment Clause. In making this determination, we have addressed the seminal question of whether ID is science. We have concluded that it is not, and moreover that ID cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents. [...]

The citizens of the Dover area were poorly served by the members of the Board who voted for the ID Policy. It is ironic that several of these individuals, who so staunchly and proudly touted their religious convictions in public, would time and again lie to cover their tracks and disguise the real purpose behind the ID Policy. With that said, we do not question that many of the leading advocates of ID have bona fide and deeply held beliefs which drive their scholarly endeavors. Nor do we controvert that ID should continue to be studied, debated, and discussed. As stated, our conclusion today is that it is unconstitutional to teach ID as an alternative to evolution in a public school science classroom. [...]

Those who disagree with our holding will likely mark it as the product of an activist judge. If so, they will have erred as this is manifestly not an activist Court. Rather, this case came to us as the result of the activism of an ill-informed faction on a school board, aided by a national public interest law firm eager to find a constitutional test case on ID, who in combination drove the Board to adopt an imprudent and ultimately unconstitutional policy. The breathtaking inanity of the Board’s decision is evident when considered against the factual backdrop which has now been fully revealed through this trial. The students, parents, and teachers of the Dover Area School District deserved better than to be dragged into this legal maelstrom, with its resulting utter waste of monetary and personal resources.

UPDATE at 7/4/08 5:09:00 pm:

Here’s a very good PBS Nova show about the Dover School District controversy:

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1258 comments

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1 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 4:44:09pm

Any takers?

Walter in Golden, Co.

2 Da_Beerfreak  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 4:45:04pm

'Pennsylvania tosses 'Intelligent Design' under the bus!

3 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 4:45:17pm

Excellent! The mobys will get here just in time for the barbeque.

4 macintush  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 4:45:40pm
5 doriangrey  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 4:45:45pm

Man Charles is milking ID until the proverbial cow is giving powdered milk...

6 MacGregor  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 4:46:02pm

And I was told there ain't no sanity clause!

7 Charles  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 4:46:06pm

Ow! Ow! Two dings already.

8 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 4:47:19pm

re: #5 doriangrey

Man Charles is milking ID until the proverbial cow is giving powdered milk...


Your point? It's his blog.

Walter in Golden, Co.

9 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 4:49:28pm

Louisiana Will Face Lawsuit If New Law Brings Religion Into Public School Science Classes, Says Americans United

The Louisiana House of Representatives today approved a measure that opens the door to teaching creationism in public schools, an action that is likely to spark litigation, says Americans United for Separation of Church and State.

Approved by a 94-3 vote, the so-called “Science Education Act” (SB 733) allows public school teachers to use “supplemental materials” when discussing evolution.

Americans United and other groups contend that those “supplemental materials” are likely to be anti-evolution books, DVDs and other items produced by fundamentalist Christian ministries. The measure is being pushed by the Louisiana Family Forum, the Discovery Institute and other Religious Right forces.

“It’s time for Louisiana to step into the 21st century and stop trying to teach religion in public schools,” said the Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United. “Laws like this are an embarrassment.”

Lynn noted that Louisiana legislators have repeatedly tried to water down the teaching of evolution. In the 1980s, the state passed a law mandating “balanced treatment” between evolution and creationism. The measure was declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in 1987. Some parishes in Louisiana have voted to paste “disclaimers” in science books, casting doubt on evolution.

“If this new law is used to promote religion in Louisiana public schools, I can guarantee there will be legal action,” Lynn said. “Louisiana students deserve better, and Louisiana taxpayers should not have their money squandered on this losing effort.”

Americans United and allied organizations successfully brought a lawsuit against the teaching of “intelligent design” creationism in Dover, Pa., public schools in 2005. That case ended with the Dover school board being required to pay significant legal fees.

/before people get all hot and bothered that the ID/Creationism movement is going unchecked in this country

10 tristan  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 4:50:09pm

The transcript is an interesting read when Behe is on the stand. Not only does he admit to the above, he even comes up with an empirical experiment to disprove ID that he would be qualified to run, but refuses to do so.

Behe's a real piece of work.

11 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 4:50:12pm

re: #7 Charles

Ow! Ow! Two dings already.

If I can't have multiple up-dingys, can I have a BIGGER ... uh, no, I better not ask it that way.

12 Gang of One  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 4:50:17pm

Let the fireworks begin.

13 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 4:52:30pm

Heeerrreee moby.
Moby moby moby.
Heeerrreee moby.
I haven't started fixing supper yet.

14 Charles  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 4:54:34pm

Creationist William Dembski mocked this decision in a weird Flash animation, in which he supplied the voice of Judge Jones and made grunting and farting noises.

[Link: www.overwhelmingevidence.com...]

15 WhiteRasta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 4:55:23pm

Here is a good reason NOT to bring religion into schools:

[Link: uk.news.yahoo.com...]

16 solomonpanting  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 4:56:07pm

re: #14 Charles

William Dembski mocked this decision in a weird Flash animation, in which he supplied the voice of Judge Jones and made farting noises.

[Link: www.overwhelmingevidence.com...]

The noises sound more like pig grunts.

17 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 4:56:27pm

Ken Miller explains exactly why intelligent design was defeated in Dover.
This is a long must video available on Youtube.
Remember kiddies, Ken Miller is a Catholic and a great scientist all in one.
The video starts with a prayer. It is the only time I've found a prayer somewhat bearable, because of the content that followed.
Honestly, watch the video, you will learn a lot unless you are a biologist.

18 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 4:56:35pm

And before anyone tries to claim Judge Jones "copied" the ACLU on this- the material the DI supporters point to as being "copied" is deposition testimony.

19 JohnnyReb  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 4:59:16pm

The overwhelming evidence at trial established that ID is a religious view, a mere re-labeling of creationism, and not a scientific theory.

That is how anyone tries to get something through the courts. Name it something it isn't and presto chango...it has a different name but is the same thing. But it sounds better.

20 Summer  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 4:59:37pm

PBS Nova (or maybe Frontline, I forgot) did a great piece on the whole story behind the trial, through the trial, and the effect thereafter. If you can find it online at their site, I'd check it out. It was very well done and explained all the issues very carefully. =)

21 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:00:04pm

re: #9 Killian Bundy

My understanding is that they have to wait until the plan is implemented and a teacher has to introduce ID/creationist material before they can sue. This whole thing is going to be a giant waste of money.

22 Summer  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:00:37pm

Just found it. It was Nova:

[Link: www.pbs.org...]

You can watch it free online at their site. Very worthwhile.

23 littleO  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:01:09pm

I stated before that it doesn't matter whether ID is taught in our schools, or not. After all, who is going to teach it!
This is , however, unlaudable because opposition needed to rely upon the courts for what some consider to serious a topic to be left to the voters, or amaeters.
The citizens of this country should be allowed to tell legistlatures the laws they want.
States should be allowed to enact they, and their citizens feel are best for them.
Evolutionist are far off in their fear of common people.

24 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:01:51pm
25 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:02:15pm

re: #22 Summer
I saw it. It was very well done. It made scientists look like scientists and creationists look like creationists.

26 JohnnyReb  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:02:50pm

re: #24 Sharmuta


Check my number 19.

27 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:02:59pm

re: #19 JohnnyReb

That is how anyone tries to get something through the courts. Name it something it isn't and presto chango...it has a different name but is the same thing. But it sounds better.

It cost them a [expletive deleted]load of attorneys fees and they went down in flames.

/and they didn't even get a lousy t-shirt

28 MacGregor  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:03:10pm

Maybe they could hire Al Gore or something. I hear he'll be available soon.

29 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:03:33pm

re: #23 littleO

Interesting- it's the DI and their Wedge Strategy that thought they could use the courts to foist ID onto the schools.

Oh- and you owe me an apology.

30 littleO  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:03:36pm

' to enact laws they, and their citizens'
thats better

31 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:04:15pm

re: #26 JohnnyReb

I did- you reminded me of that graph, so I thought I'd post it. :)

32 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:06:19pm

re: #21 Killgore Trout

My understanding is that they have to wait until the plan is implemented and a teacher has to introduce ID/creationist material before they can sue. This whole thing is going to be a giant waste of money.

Welcome to reality. They're entitled to their beliefs like everyone else in this country. You can't stop them, you can only hope to contain them.

/we know one thing, the outcome is certain, they'll lose

33 Summer  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:06:37pm

re: #25 theatheistjew

Yea, I think people who go on about how ID is a valid scientific argument should watch that show. In fact, I think anyone who argues about the decision should watch that show. It was really very good and explained every issue and how it was shot down with evidence to the contrary.

And it also showed how many of the parents who contested ID being taught in school were themselves religious Christians and thought that ID being taught was frightening and just full of lies.

34 JohnnyReb  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:08:01pm

re: #31 Sharmuta

I did- you reminded me of that graph, so I thought I'd post it. :)


Kind of like a morphing Obama isn't it?

35 Dr. Shalit  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:08:43pm

re: #7 Charles

Ow! Ow! Two dings already.

Charles -

For what it is worth, the REAL argument is clouded in metaphor. it reallly comes down to faith/belief in an "UNCAUSED CAUSE." One either has it or has not. Everything else follows from there.

-S-

36 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:10:08pm

re: #14 Charles

Creationist William Dembski mocked this decision in a weird Flash animation, in which he supplied the voice of Judge Jones and made grunting and farting noises.

[Link: www.overwhelmingevidence.com...]

How mature of them.

37 Charles  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:10:27pm

I found that Nova show at Google video -- the video is now embedded above. Looks great. Now watching.

38 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:11:48pm

re: #34 JohnnyReb

We could graph obama in the same way, after all- it looks from that graph that the DI tossed "creationism" under the bus.

39 Summer  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:12:00pm

re: #37 Charles

Yay. I got something embedded in LGF. =)

And yup, it's a very good show, Charles. Enjoy! =)

40 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:12:03pm

re: #32 Killian Bundy

/ahead of comment -- merely RE-stating the obvious

They're entitled to their beliefs like everyone else in this country.

An inalienable right -- but taught at home or in church.

41 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:15:40pm

re: #23 littleO

The citizens of this country should be allowed to tell legistlatures the laws they want.

States can't violate the constitution. That's why we have one. You aren't really going to argue against the constitution on Independence Day are you?

42 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:16:35pm

re: #40 pre-Boomer Marine brat

An inalienable right -- but taught at home or in church.

/that's how the Federal and State courts have consistently ruled in recent decades

43 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:17:05pm

re: #39 Summer

Thanks, Summer. I always enjoyed NOVA- one of the few reasons to watch PBS.

44 yehoshua  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:17:09pm

Sorry, but anything promoted by PBS -- global warming, retreat from Iraq, a Palestinian state, the theory of evolution --
should not be taken seriously.

45 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:17:27pm

re: the up and down-dings, reviews (by rational lizards) are now mixed on these ID threads. I can understand.

mikeymom, please don't let my above-posted enthusiasm for barbequed moby offend you. See Killian's 32 and my 40.

46 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:18:23pm

re: #42 Killian Bundy

/that's how the Federal and State courts have consistently ruled in recent decades

And what conscience and personal honor demand of me.

47 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:18:52pm

re: #41 Killgore Trout

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

/Article VI, Clause 2 of the United States Constitution

48 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:19:51pm

re: #36 Honorary Yooper

How mature manure of them.

Fixed your little typo there.

49 scottishbuzzsaw  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:20:33pm

A well written and reasoned decision. Excellent.

50 mama winger  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:21:20pm

re: #40 pre-Boomer Marine brat

/ahead of comment -- merely RE-stating the obvious

An inalienable right -- but taught at home or in church.

This is not entirely correct. Religion is not confined to the home or church. Religion cannot be restricted from a free society. The free expression of religion is a constitutional right. The constitutional restriction here is ,that religion shall not be established, sanctioned or taught by the State. It does not mean that religion can only be taught in the home or church. It only means that religious teaching cannot be State-sponsored.

51 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:21:30pm

re: #48 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Fixed your little typo there.

Heh. Well, they did get their degrees from the University of Toromanura. ;-)

52 Charles  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:27:10pm

re: #44 yehoshua

Sorry, but anything promoted by PBS -- global warming, retreat from Iraq, a Palestinian state, the theory of evolution --
should not be taken seriously.

Nova is often excellent. It's what PBS does well.

This video is great, by the way. Highly recommend it. Thanks for the tip, Summer.

53 Phocid  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:27:45pm

re: #44 yehoshua

Fortunately science on PBS and at the universitys has remained effectively free of political correctness.

The judge made an insightful point about the tree the ID advocates are barking up:

ID is at bottom premised upon a false dichotomy, namely, that to the extent evolutionary theory is discredited, ID is confirmed.

If IDers can't see the fundamental non-sequitur of that notion how can they claim they know anything about science?

54 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:27:55pm

It is too bad that this subject has become a political football because it is an interesting philosophical question worthy of considered discussion.

At any rate, in the over-heated discussion, it becomes very hard to see & feel the spiritual reality that just permeates everything, IMHO.

55 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:28:17pm

re: #15 WhiteRasta

Here is a good reason NOT to bring religion into schools:

[Link: uk.news.yahoo.com...]

Rasta, you know when I was at Munro we had scripture classes, all the way up to GCE O levels and there was never a problem.

Please explain to me why religious education is so wrong if it does not force kids to worship.

56 republic  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:29:22pm
"Is it the Fourth?"

-- Thomas Jefferson (evening July 3; Jefferson died the next
morning, July 4th 1826)

Reference: Thomas Jefferson: A Life, Randal (594)

57 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:29:41pm

re: #50 mama winger

religious teaching cannot be State-sponsored

VERY true!

/a history major in college

58 republic  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:30:29pm

re: #55 shanec99

Rasta, you know when I was at Munro we had scripture classes, all the way up to GCE O levels and there was never a problem.

Please explain to me why religious education is so wrong if it does not force kids to worship.

But islam is freely preached and taught in Americas public schools, and there is very little coverage of that.

59 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:33:27pm

re: #35 Dr. Shalit

Actually, I would include: faith/belief/perception of the Uncaused Cause;

If we try, we can see it, however dimly

It is reflected in creation

at least the ID types point to it

and some of the vehement evolutionists are trying to deny it

thus all the yelling

& you can see why monasteries are supposed to be silent

60 Purple Prose  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:33:33pm

re: #23 littleO

The citizens of this country should be allowed to tell legistlatures the laws they want.
States should be allowed to enact they, and their citizens feel are best for them.
Evolutionist are far off in their fear of common people.

By this argument, a school district should have the right to teach that 1+1=3, if it desires. Moreover, in this case, there wasn't even a public referendum. It was simply school board bureaucrats making the undemocratic decision to require ID to be taught as science.

But even if there were some referendum and it wasn't just a decision made by a handful of mucky mucks, put up to it by IDers eager to conduct a court experiment to see if they can get ID through when they failed with creationism (since they can't do real experiments to test ID), it would be no more justifiable to teach children ideology as science. Should kids be taught that 1+1=3 or the world is flat or Allah is the one true God, whether it's a school board acting as mavericks or the result of a referendum?

It's a slippery slope once you toss reason out the window and allow religion or any other ideology not based on facts into the classroom for whatever reason.

61 Shug  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:33:35pm

So the Pennsylvania ID movement is extinct?

Did it win a Darwin award?

62 Opilio  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:33:51pm

re: #7 Charles

Ow! Ow! Two dings already.

Speaking as the first dinger, I would like to state that dingage does not necessarily correspond to any particular view of Evolution/Creationism/ID. I can not speak for any of my fellow dingers, but I believe my views wrt I.D. are probably in close alignment with those of Charles, particularly:

  • ID is a religious view, it is not Science.
  • The teaching of ID in public schools is indefensible.

It just that, after a while, these ID threads usually devolve into the bellicose, truculent, vitriolic, and vituperative. And I wasn't in the mood for that tonight.

63 JohnnyReb  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:34:18pm

re: #55 shanec99

Rasta, you know when I was at Munro we had scripture classes, all the way up to GCE O levels and there was never a problem.

Please explain to me why religious education is so wrong if it does not force kids to worship.


Because with government, sooner or later kids will be forced to worship (observe, respect it, etc.) is one.

Just like the moment of silence thingy.

64 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:34:41pm

re: #54 Ojoe

It is too bad that this subject has become a political football because it is an interesting philosophical question worthy of considered discussion.

At any rate, in the over-heated discussion, it becomes very hard to see & feel the spiritual reality that just permeates everything, IMHO.

ID is essentially a philosophical position and should be studied as such, rather than as a scientific discipline.

The assertions of ID cannot be demonstrated with scientific tests, and until we can demonstrate the validity of ID through tests that can be reproduced under strict scientific scrutiny then we should avoid the pretense that it is science.

65 Phocid  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:35:34pm

re: #55 shanec99

66 Summer  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:35:49pm

re: #52 Charles

You're very welcome! =)

67 Phocid  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:36:52pm

re: #55 shanec99

Rasta, you know when I was at Munro we had scripture classes, all the way up to GCE O levels and there was never a problem.

Please explain to me why religious education is so wrong if it does not force kids to worship.

But that's the problem: kids were being indoctrinated in religion in a science class.

68 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:37:08pm

re: #62 Opilio

/butting in

(Understandable. See my #45)

69 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:37:55pm

re: #58 republic

But islam is freely preached and taught in Americas public schools, and there is very little coverage of that.


The basics of Islam should be taught in school. The justification of middle aged men sleeping with 9 year old girls should be exposed.

If our children are fore warned, then they are fore armed.

We should embrace knowledge, it is the best defense against the murderers who bathe themselves in ignorance.

70 republic  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:40:48pm

re: #69 shanec99

The basics of Islam should be taught in school. The justification of middle aged men sleeping with 9 year old girls should be exposed.

If our children are fore warned, then they are fore armed.

We should embrace knowledge, it is the best defense against the murderers who bathe themselves in ignorance.


But the evil that is islam is not what is taught in American public schools.

It's all unicorns eating in fields of cotton candy and baskets full of puppies and stuff.

I wonder if they teach that the koran, from cover to cover, instructs, demands of its followers to "kill the unbelievers wherever they are"?

71 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:40:56pm

re: #67 Phocid

But that's the problem: kids were being indoctrinated in religion in a science class.

Were they being indoctrinated or were they being asked to explore other possibilities?

72 HelloDare  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:42:09pm

re: #7 Charles

Ow! Ow! Two dings already.

It would be funny if you made dings count as pluses in the ID threads. Imagine the heads that would explode.

73 Charles  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:42:41pm

It's amazing what the creationists tried to pull in Dover. This video has lots of details I haven't seen before.

74 Dolphin  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:43:19pm

re: #62 Opilio

It just that, after a while, these ID threads usually devolve into the bellicose, truculent, vitriolic, and vituperative. And I wasn't in the mood for that tonight.

Agreed! 100%

75 JohnnyReb  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:44:27pm

For some reason I am seeing alot of people on here wanting ID to be taught in public school classes. Not sure why that is. Am I that out of touch?

76 Alouette  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:45:21pm

re: #52 Charles

Last week, I bought a bunch of books for my son, the Rabbi, who is very meticulous about what he allows his children (my grandkids!) to read. I got them "Hurricanes and Tornadoes," "Tornadoes," "Children's Encyclopedia of Animals," "Encyclopedia of Birdwatching," "Encyclopedia of Oceans."

He grabbed them all and read them all for himself!

He loves nature, and Creation! And if G-D created the mountains, the oceans and the animals "l'chol min al mino" (every species unto itself), that is proof of creation and evolution!

When he was a kid, we used to listen to lectures of an anti-evolution Rabbi (Avigdor Miller). We also had subscriptions to National Geographic and Scientific American. My kids (thank G-D) grew up thinking for themselves.

77 scottishbuzzsaw  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:45:33pm

Off to celebrate this amazing American Experiment with my beloved one ~ Happy 4th to you all!

78 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:46:22pm

re: #73 Charles

It's amazing what the creationists tried to pull in Dover. This video has lots of details I haven't seen before.

Have you seen the Miller video I posted on this thread? It is really enlightening to see how bad the creationist arguments are in reality. They profess things about IC and the eye, but all that stuff has been refuted by biologists, yet IDers will keep repeating the same lies over and over again.

79 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:46:32pm

re: #73 Charles

The burning of the mural is new to me, and really disturbing when one thinks of the historical analogies.

80 Shug  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:46:58pm

Can't the ID people just go to Church and discuss creationism ?

isn't that what Church is for ?


Isn't science class for...science?

81 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:47:24pm

re: #73 Charles

It's also interesting how the science teachers fought against this. I thought the were divided on the issue.

82 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:48:04pm

re: #70 republic

the koran, from cover to cover, instructs, demands of its followers to "kill the unbelievers wherever they are"

Not quite. Not cover-to-cover. A (manufactured) principle of abrogation is used to negate earlier Surah (pro-Jewish, pro-Christian) in favor of the "jihadist" Surah of Mohammed's Medina period.

The two "sets" of Surah form an inherent contradiction in the Koran which most Muslims avoid addressing.

83 transient  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:48:32pm

re: #37 Charles

I found that Nova show at Google video -- the video is now embedded above. Looks great. Now watching.

Thanks for posting the Nova show, Charles! I no longer get TV, so I will definitely be watching this as soon as I have time!

84 WhiteRasta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:49:11pm

re: #55 shanec99

Bredda, I have a problem with making pickney kneel down to the false prophet.

85 Alouette  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:49:22pm

re: #78 theatheistjew

Have you seen the Miller video I posted on this thread?

Oh, I thought you were referring to Rabbi Avigdor Miller.

86 Charles  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:49:23pm

re: #78 theatheistjew

Have you seen the Miller video I posted on this thread?

I sure have...

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

87 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:49:27pm

re: #75 JohnnyReb

For some reason I am seeing alot of people on here wanting ID to be taught in public school classes. Not sure why that is. Am I that out of touch?

"on here" ... meaning on this thread? I don't understand.

88 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:50:03pm

re: #75 JohnnyReb
ID, Marxism etc are all ideologies that influence a large number of people.

I believe that knowing what other people believe cannot harm us.

It is ignorance that will kill us not knowledge. Knowing what the IDers believe and being able to examine their beliefs objectively and demonstrate that they have no scientific basis cannot be harmful to our children.

I say let them know the truth and move on.

89 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:50:07pm

re: #82 pre-Boomer Marine brat

DAMMIT, forgot to "quote"
PIMF

90 Opilio  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:51:06pm

re: #56 republic

"Is it the Fourth?"

-- Thomas Jefferson (evening July 3; Jefferson died the next
morning, July 4th 1826)

Probably common knowledge, but did you know that Thomas Jefferson and John Adams died within hours of one another on July 4, 1826, the nation's 50th birthday?

91 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:53:24pm

re: #80 Shug

Can't the ID people just go to Church and discuss creationism ?

isn't that what Church is for ?


Isn't science class for...science?


School should be a place to explore ideas, even the ones we disagree with, if only because it prepares us for dealing with adults in a complex society full of divergent beliefs.

Learning about various philosophies cannot be bad. Knowledge is good and should be embraced.

92 mean Gene  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:53:57pm

After seven years of almost total focus on the GWOT it is interesting to see how people move on.
Most of the liberals I live bear have been totally oblivious about any threat to themselves or their freedom (especially the gay ones) and have been pretty much all this time.
But Robert Spencer, for one, has kept his focus.
LGF has this tag storm so you can see that the GWOT in all it's fronts is still the major focus here.
ID has only 25 threads over the last 90 days.
It just seems like more.
And somehow I expect it will be growing in the future.
I hope I'm wrong and this remains a sort of weird sideshow.

93 WhiteRasta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:54:35pm

Shane:

I have to go work early so goodnight, mi bredrin. Happy 4th of July to you and all of you Americans. G-d Bless.

94 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:55:32pm

re: #93 WhiteRasta

Shane:

I have to go work early so goodnight, mi bredrin. Happy 4th of July to you and all of you Americans. G-d Bless.


Take care brother, be safe.

See you on another day.

Did you say that you went to Wolmers boys?

95 Ford_Prefect  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:55:43pm

re: #91 shanec99

School should be a place to explore ideas, even the ones we disagree with, if only because it prepares us for dealing with adults in a complex society full of divergent beliefs.

Learning about various philosophies cannot be bad. Knowledge is good and should be embraced.

Yes, but the question then becomes should that be discussed in a science class or a philosophy class?

96 WhiteRasta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:56:03pm

re: #94 shanec99

Naah Priory. Country Club...

97 grumpy old codger  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:56:04pm

Yawn, another ID thread. Well, just remember when the imams take over all of this sort of discussion will be verboten. The origins of life will be discussed by the sort of bozo who thinks you can drive from Australia to Tasmania. and there will be no dispute.
Sort of a America Erwache moment.

98 MacGregor  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:56:07pm

re: #90 Opilio

Probably common knowledge, but did you know that Thomas Jefferson and John Adams died within hours of one another on July 4, 1826, the nation's 50th birthday?

That made for a great ending to the HBO John Adams series, which HBO is airing today.

99 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:56:45pm

re: #64 shanec99

Well yes, it shades off into religion, & isn't that the point?

100 grumpy old codger  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:56:56pm

re: #90 Opilio
Were they assassinated by agents of the Crown? Enquiring minds want to know!

101 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:57:53pm

re: #91 shanec99

ID is not science and should not be taught in a science classroom. It would be better served in a philosophy class or a class on world religions, but not a science class.

102 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:58:09pm

re: #95 Ford_Prefect

I absolutely agree with you... I do not believe ID has a place as a part of any scientific discussion.

It has a philosophical underpinning, a philosophy in part derived from Biblical teaching and should be therefore studied as part of a larger study of world philosophies.

103 guftafs  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:58:51pm

re: #80 Shug

Every major scientific discovery dealt crushing blows to the basis of religious belief: Scientific explanations based on observations ultimately remove the need for religious belief. If religionists were to succeed in countering this long-term trend, they would open the way for a re-surgence of religion.

104 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:58:57pm

re: #96 WhiteRasta

Had some cousins who went to Priory and a couple who went to Ardenne.

105 DesertSage  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:59:06pm

I thought this case was several years old?

Anyhow, the problem I see with these ID threads comes down to misinterpretation of what Charles is trying to present here.
As far as I can tell (after reading almost every evolution thread), Charles does not have a problem with religion or even the theistic theory of creation. He has a problem with a theory of creation that is not backed up by scientific facts. We all should have a problem with that theory of creation, whether one is deeply religious or not religious at all.

Some of the more religious people here have been deeply offended because because some of the anti-religion people have used these threads as an opportunity to ridicule the people of faith. A lot of the people of faith here believe in God wholeheartedly and also believe in the theistic form of creationism, but not the ID type of creationism. Some of these people are actual practicing scientists.
Once the anti-religious people understood that the religious people could honestly and legitimately believe in a theistic form of creation and also reject the ID type, the arguments stopped being so passionate. More people were agreeing then were arguing. It's also helped that the anti-religious people have stopped painting all creationists with a broad brush, and realized that there are many types of creationist theories...not just ID.

106 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:00:27pm

The book of Genesis was written by multiple authors countless centuries after the events described.

/words I take to heart but don't take literally

107 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:00:29pm

re: #101 Sharmuta

ID is not science and should not be taught in a science classroom. It would be better served in a philosophy class or a class on world religions, but not a science class.

Agreed.
But it also should be discussed, not ignored.

It is not science... it is a discussion of faith.

108 Opilio  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:01:34pm

re: #100 grumpy old codger

Were they assassinated by agents of the Crown? Enquiring minds want to know!

Welll, between the two of 'em, they were 173 years old, so I'll go with the official story of "natural" causes.

109 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:01:34pm

re: #102 shanec99

Well ID is kind of a hybrid of philosophical/religious considerations springing from observations of nature.

It is not strictly science

It needs a bigger 'box'.

110 grumpy old codger  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:02:19pm

re: #108 Opilio

You're part of the conspiracy aren't you?

111 mama winger  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:02:38pm

re: #103 guftafs

Every major scientific discovery dealt crushing blows to the basis of religious belief: Scientific explanations based on observations ultimately remove the need for religious belief. If religionists were to succeed in countering this long-term trend, they would open the way for a re-surgence of religion.

Are you saying that science ultimately brings one to atheism?

112 lifeofthemind  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:03:59pm

re: #98 MacGregor

re: #90 Opilio

Probably common knowledge, but did you know that Thomas Jefferson and John Adams died within hours of one another on July 4, 1826, the nation's 50th birthday?

That made for a great ending to the HBO John Adams series, which HBO is airing today.

You mean it was another Hollywood hit job? Is there anything a producer won't stoop to? Was Karl Rove or Dick Morris in on it? Inquiring minds and all.

113 Opilio  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:04:27pm

re: #110 grumpy old codger

You're part of the conspiracy aren't you?

I prefer to think that the conspiracy is part of me.

114 mean Gene  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:05:25pm

re: #105 DesertSage

IF each one of these threads started with a little dictionary, so we all were using the same words and MEANING the same thing when we did, then I would begin to take part.
But there never has been an agreement on definitions of terms.
I understand Charles is not anti-religious.
But what do all of these ''code words" mean?
A couple of these threads ago, or maybe on one of the ''science'' links, the term ''critical thinking" was called a ''code word'' for ID.
What?
I just need a glossary before diving in.

115 FloatingRock  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:05:28pm
The Defeat of 'Intelligent Design' in Pennsylvania


Hallelujah!

116 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:06:42pm

re: #111 mama winger

Gee I would report from my own life (re No. 103 guftafs) that every scientific discovery increases my awe of creation, and respect for the Creator.

It is funny how scientific discoveries can have such opposite effects, one would think the discoveries are pushing ahead some predispositions here.

At any rate, we as humans seem to be constructed to need religion.

117 DesertSage  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:07:01pm

re: #111 mama winger

Are you saying that science ultimately brings one to atheism?

That's what I'd like to know. Is he saying that one cannot have deeply held religious beliefs and believe in science?

Is he saying that science is now a province of atheism? That would be a big surprise to a lot of darn good scientists.

118 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:07:20pm

re: #109 Ojoe

Well ID is kind of a hybrid of philosophical/religious considerations springing from observations of nature.

It is not strictly science

It needs a bigger 'box'.

Perhaps. It is one of these religious ideas that help people to erect a bridge between what their core religious beliefs are, and what the secular world tells them every day.

It is only dangerous if we allow its proponents to make a claim about it that it cannot possibly deliver.

It is not science and should not be allowed to masquerade as such, but people should be allowed to explore it.

119 mama winger  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:07:39pm

re: #116 Ojoe

re: #117 DesertSage

I agree.

120 republic  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:08:08pm

re: #90 Opilio

Probably common knowledge, but did you know that Thomas Jefferson and John Adams died within hours of one another on July 4, 1826, the nation's 50th birthday?

"Thomas Jefferson still lives."

-- John Adams (after waking momentarily, afternoon July 4 1826)

Reference: The Works of John Adams, C.F. Adams, ed., vol. 1 (636)

121 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:08:30pm

re: #105 DesertSage

HEAR HEAR!

122 yehoshua  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:08:57pm

re: #90 Opilio

My favorite Jefferson quote:

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it’s natural manure."

It takes a man possessed of that rare combination of deep emotion, sharp intellect, and an agricultural bent to make such a statement.

123 guftafs  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:09:48pm

re: #111 mama winger

Are you saying that science ultimately brings one to atheism?

Not necessarily. Naturally there will always be religious people, even people of otherwise excellent character. But religion lost out to rational inquiry as a driving force in the West sometime around the discovery of the laws of gravitation by Newton. With Newton religion was no longer needed to explain the heavens. With Darwin religion was no longer needed to explain the variety of life. So you where science ultimately leads the discerning thinker?

124 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:10:01pm

re: #118 shanec99

It is one of these religious ideas that help people to erect a bridge between what their core religious beliefs are, and what the secular world tells them every day.

As such it might be very useful

It is too bad it has become such a football

It needs to be presented better

IMHO

125 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:10:43pm

re: #107 shanec99

Agreed.
But it also should be discussed, not ignored.

It is not science... it is a discussion of faith.

When I was growing up, these things were discussed- at home, with my parents.

126 tunnelrat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:11:24pm

You know... ID may seem like a quaint, old fashioned concept which no longer holds up in the face of science, but nobody can prove evoloution either. To many people the concept of our existence being a product of chance is hard to believe too. Sorry folks, but I just do not believe that everything we see just "happened" or that we evolved from monkeys. To me that is ridiculous!

127 guftafs  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:11:54pm

re: #123 guftafs

... that came out wrong. I meant people of "excellent character", not "otherwise excellent character" ...

128 mama winger  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:11:55pm

re: #123 guftafs

Naturally there will always be religious people, even people of otherwise excellent character.

Have a nice evening, guftafs.

Happy 4th of July, everyone.

God bless out troops !

129 MacGregor  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:12:36pm

re: #112 lifeofthemind

You mean it was another Hollywood hit job? Is there anything a producer won't stoop to? Was Karl Rove or Dick Morris in on it? Inquiring minds and all.

That one seemed pretty much on the up and up - although I heard some conservatives complained.

130 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:12:45pm

Which ID hypothesis do they want to teach in science, and what would the text book look like?

Here are seven different creationist views:
Theistic Evolution:
Evolution by natural processes is the tool God used

Evolutionary Creationism:
Adam and Eve were the first spiritually aware humans

Progressive Creationism:
Humans were a special creation event

Day-Age Creationism:
Six days of creation were six geological epochs

Gap Creationism:
4.5 billion year gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2

Omphalism:
Earth was created with the appearance of age and of evolution

Young Earth Fundamentalism:
Invented versions of all natural sciences to explain Earth's age as 6,000 years

131 dm60462  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:13:09pm

Glaring error on the NOVA piece - the statement that there is a rift between science and Scripture. As a devout Catholic and a scientist, I see no conflict between the two. While God clearly designed the Universe, He also gave us the intelligence to understand the universe through science. Both the Creation and the ability to understand it through science are His gifts.

132 Summer  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:13:22pm

re: #126 tunnelrat

You know... ID may seem like a quaint, old fashioned concept which no longer holds up in the face of science, but nobody can prove evoloution either. To many people the concept of our existence being a product of chance is hard to believe too. Sorry folks, but I just do not believe that everything we see just "happened" or that we evolved from monkeys. To me that is ridiculous!

You really...really don't understand Evolution.

133 guftafs  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:13:46pm

re: #128 mama winger

Have a nice evening, guftafs.

Happy 4th of July, everyone.

God bless out troops !

Same to you, mama.

134 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:14:03pm

re: #123 guftafs

Not necessarily. Naturally there will always be religious people, even people of otherwise excellent character. But religion lost out to rational inquiry as a driving force in the West sometime around the discovery of the laws of gravitation by Newton. With Newton religion was no longer needed to explain the heavens. With Darwin religion was no longer needed to explain the variety of life. So you where science ultimately leads the discerning thinker?

Interesting point of view, but I beg to differ.

Religion teaches people how to get along.

It provides a grounding in morality and gives a cohesion necessary for the functioning of a modern complex society.

A society without laws based in religious teaching would be a dangerous place to live in because it would not recognize the principle of right and wrong so frequently articulated in the Scriptures.

135 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:14:44pm

re: #103 guftafs

Every major scientific discovery dealt crushing blows to the basis of religious belief: Scientific explanations based on observations ultimately remove the need for religious belief. If religionists were to succeed in countering this long-term trend, they would open the way for a re-surgence of religion.

My (deep-rooted, and Christian) faith isn't affected a solitary whit by science.

What you seem to be stating is Jean Jacques Rousseau's assumption that the development of Man's intellectual capacities would make religion unnecessary.

136 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:15:53pm

re: #118 shanec99

It is not science and should not be allowed to masquerade as such, but people should be allowed to explore it.

No one is stopping anyone from considering faith in their lives along side science. Many of us simply draw the line at this in public schools where one person's ideas may not be to the liking of the parents of the children. This is a slippery slope, and it's an area that I would want control over as a parent, and not abdicate to the schools.

137 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:15:55pm

re: #115 FloatingRock

Hallelujah!

LOL

138 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:15:59pm

re: #134 shanec99


A society without laws based in religious teaching would be a dangerous place to live in because it would not recognize the principle of right and wrong so frequently articulated in the Scriptures.


It's a common misconception that religion is required for morality.

139 Cartman  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:16:08pm

re: #127 guftafs

... that came out wrong. I meant people of "excellent character", not "otherwise excellent character" ...

How very magnanimous of you.

140 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:16:25pm

How the universe appears to you depends upon who you are with

The mystic Julian of Norwich was with God at one point

He let her hold this little round thing in her hand

the size of a hazlenut

What is this she asked

It is all that is made was the reply

She said she was amazed it did not vanish, it was so small

God said that it lasts, and ever shall last because he loved it.


I think this is true

I would not try to convince school kids in a science class about this, however;

And some things are bigger than science.

141 WitchDoctor  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:16:49pm

The debate is over.

To deny intelligent design is to deny the holocaust.

Happy Independence day!

/SARC

142 yehoshua  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:16:55pm

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it’s natural manure."
--- Thomas Jefferson
This statement makes you realize that tyranny is no less constant than liberty. Also, liberty is not stagnant but must constantly grow in order to reamin. If Jefferson were alive today, he would be telling us that our liberty depends on destroying the tyrants that exist in this world -- whether in the Middle East, Zimbabwe, or North Korea.

143 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:16:57pm

re: #134 shanec99

Interesting point of view, but I beg to differ.

Religion teaches people how to get along.

It provides a grounding in morality and gives a cohesion necessary for the functioning of a modern complex society.

A society without laws based in religious teaching would be a dangerous place to live in because it would not recognize the principle of right and wrong so frequently articulated in the Scriptures.

Wrong. Many societies have functioned throughout history without the bible being the basis for the laws. Biblical laws are just common sense any way put down on paper by man for man and God is added to give it more oomph.

144 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:18:16pm

re: #126 tunnelrat

You know... ID may seem like a quaint, old fashioned concept which no longer holds up in the face of science, but nobody can prove evolution either. To many people the concept of our existence being a product of chance is hard to believe too. Sorry folks, but I just do not believe that everything we see just "happened" or that we evolved from monkeys. To me that is ridiculous!

We did not evolve from monkeys... nor does evolution say so.
Evolution suggests that human and great apes had a common ancestor.
What I learned in anthropology suggests that modern humans evolved from an ancestor who lived in east Africa, not a monkey.

145 lifeofthemind  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:18:33pm

re: #135 pre-Boomer Marine brat

My (deep-rooted, and Christian) faith isn't affected a solitary whit by science.

What you seem to be stating is Jean Jacques Rousseau's assumption that the development of Man's intellectual capacities would make religion unnecessary.

The list of atrocities that can be traced back to M. Rousseaum and his theory of the General Will as molded by the enlightened intelligentsia, grows like kudzu.

146 Charles  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:18:50pm

Just getting to the Michael Behe section...

Refused multiple invitations from Nova...

147 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:19:22pm

re: #138 Killgore Trout

It's a common misconception that religion is required for morality.

/take San Francisco for example

148 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:19:45pm

re: #146 Charles

I'm at the same part. The Disco Institute refused to be interviewed too.

149 Buster Bunny  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:19:55pm

summing it all up.

Monkey wins, poor theology loses.

They'll be getting a banana from me in the mail.

/Banana Bunny

150 Ford_Prefect  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:20:26pm

re: #141 WitchDoctor

The debate is over.

Boy, are you on the wrong site. This a place where debate is never over.

151 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:21:01pm

re: #138 Killgore Trout

It's a common misconception that religion is required for morality.

Provide me an example of a moral society without religious underpinnings and I will agree with you.

152 guftafs  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:21:43pm

re: #135 pre-Boomer Marine brat

My (deep-rooted, and Christian) faith isn't affected a solitary whit by science.

What you seem to be stating is Jean Jacques Rousseau's assumption that the development of Man's intellectual capacities would make religion unnecessary.

I don't think man's intellectual capacities need to be further developed--they are what enabled man to go to the moon. 2,000+ years of religion did not bring us one inch closer to it. Not to denigrate religion, but think about it.

153 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:22:06pm

re: #138 Killgore Trout

It's a common misconception that religion is required for morality.

Very true, and the inverse works as well. The jihadis are a case in point of people having religion without morality.

154 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:22:12pm

re: #144 shanec99

We did not evolve from monkeys... nor does evolution say so.
Evolution suggests that human and great apes had a common ancestor.
What I learned in anthropology suggests that modern humans evolved from an ancestor who lived in east Africa, not a monkey.

Actually, chimps and humans branched off between 5 and 7 million years ago. The human branch and monkey branch branched off around 25 million years ago, so evolution does state we evolved from old world monkeys.
We even go back to sponges if you want to go back far enough, and even farther back we trace back to one celled animals.

155 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:22:43pm

re: #152 guftafs

Religion is about getting to God not to the moon

156 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:23:52pm

re: #140 Ojoe

Your mention of Julian of Norwich just spurred me over to Amazon. Ordered a copy of Revelations of Divine Love.

Thank you for the round tuit!

157 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:24:00pm

re: #143 theatheistjew

I never said the Bible was the source of all religious beliefs or the legal under pinnings of ever society's laws.

I said the scriptures, like Buddhist, Christian, Judean, Hinduism... etc.

The underpinnings of all laws come from religious teachings of these various religious philosophies.

158 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:24:25pm

re: #151 shanec99

Many Jainists and Buddhists are atheists and fine upstanding citizens. Twain, Thoreau, Einstein were all fine people. Belief in god does not make one morally superior no matter how many times you claim it.

159 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:24:26pm

re: #151 shanec99

Provide me an example of a moral society without religious underpinnings and I will agree with you.

Most ancient societies have believed in the supernatural. They couldn't explain lightning back then.
But look at the Mayans, the ancient Greeks, the Zoroastrians. They all behaved morally. Even chimps behave morally to a great extent. They must read their bibles when the cameras are off:)

160 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:24:43pm

re: #153 Honorary Yooper

Good point.

161 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:25:02pm

Can I nominate "laced with Darwinism" for a rotating title?

162 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:25:06pm

re: #156 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Julian is one of the best

163 Buster Bunny  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:25:21pm

I think somewhere in Judaic texts it talks about the world being created so god can eventually look man in the face as equals.

That seems to be where its going .. and science just propels us further in that direction.

Ignorance is assuming literals in a book that never was about that.

164 talon_262  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:25:24pm

re: #43 Sharmuta

Thanks, Summer. I always enjoyed NOVA- one of the few reasons to watch PBS.

Don't forget This Old House, The New Yankee Workshop, and the old episodes of The Joy of Painting with Bob Ross (RIP)...

;-)

165 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:25:58pm

re: #145 lifeofthemind

The list of atrocities that can be traced back to M. Rousseaum and his theory of the General Will as molded by the enlightened intelligentsia, grows like kudzu.

kudzu -- excellent comparison!

166 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:25:59pm

re: #154 theatheistjew

Actually, chimps and humans branched off between 5 and 7 million years ago. The human branch and monkey branch branched off around 25 million years ago, so evolution does state we evolved from old world monkeys.
We even go back to sponges if you want to go back far enough, and even farther back we trace back to one celled animals.

No it says a common ancestor... not monkeys.

You may think monkeys and many people believe that... but please quote one scientific document that says humans evolved from monkeys.

Common ancestor does not mean monkey.

167 MacGregor  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:26:28pm

What if the need to believe in something greater is ingrained as an evolved survival trait into our dna? Would it be unnatural to squelch such a trait? /just askin'

168 Ford_Prefect  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:26:33pm

re: #151 shanec99

Provide me an example of a moral society without religious underpinnings and I will agree with you.

While I understand your point, the fact is that no such society has ever existed because there has never been a society that didn't have some sort of predominate religion. That, however does not mean that it is not possible. I believe that it is something that may end up "evolving" in time as more scientific discovery creates more doubt in people's minds about the all-encompassing knowledge of religions.

169 DesertSage  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:27:23pm

re: #152 guftafs

I don't think man's intellectual capacities need to be further developed--they are what enabled man to go to the moon. 2,000+ years of religion did not bring us one inch closer to it. Not to denigrate religion, but think about it.

So people who believed in God and faith didn't have anything o do with the progress humankind has made over the past 2,000 years?
Is that what you're saying?

170 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:27:37pm

re: #147 Killian Bundy

/take San Francisco for example

DAMN I'm glad I didn't have a mouthful of food!

171 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:27:38pm

re: #164 talon_262

Don't forget This Old House, The New Yankee Workshop, and the old episodes of The Joy of Painting with Bob Ross (RIP)...

;-)

And that dork who makes furniture with colonial period tools.

172 marjoriemoon  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:27:45pm

re: #118 shanec99

Perhaps. It is one of these religious ideas that help people to erect a bridge between what their core religious beliefs are, and what the secular world tells them every day.

It is only dangerous if we allow its proponents to make a claim about it that it cannot possibly deliver.

It is not science and should not be allowed to masquerade as such, but people should be allowed to explore it.

What angers me as much as trying to make ID look like science, is trying to make science look unsubstantiated. "Theories" such as evolution or even gravity are not wrong or inaccurate, they are just incomplete, waiting for more science to expound on them.

This ruling will go far to keep ID out of our schools. We need it in Florida big time.

173 republic  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:28:02pm

Happy 4th of July all, you can all debate whatever you wish, I believe what I believe about things, and I don't expect anyone else to believe what I believe, nor would I ever demand that, nor judge others based on my beliefs.

It'll all work out.

Take care and be safe.

174 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:28:07pm

re: #159 theatheistjew

The Mayans, Zoroastrians etc had a group of religious beliefs. Those beliefs told established behaviors that were good and bad and they eventually became codified as laws and morality.

175 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:28:20pm
176 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:29:21pm

The Behe section is hilarious!

177 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:29:24pm

re: #151 shanec99

Provide me an example of a moral society without religious underpinnings and I will agree with you.

Confucian China

178 guftafs  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:29:28pm

re: #155 Ojoe

Religion is about getting to God not to the moon

Well, I answered to pre-Boomer marine brat question if I thought man's intellectual capacities would make religion unnecessary. I think so and showed how powerless religion is when dealing with the real world. "Getting to god" is "getting nowhere" as far as I'm concerned, since proof is severly lacking as to where god resides.

179 tunnelrat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:29:33pm

re: #154 theatheistjew

How does anybody know what happened 5, 10 or 25 million years ago? Why not 100 million years ago? Maybe 200 million years? It is impossible to prove. You are exhibiting a great deal of faith in a theory.

180 transient  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:30:56pm

Darn it, I hate having to work when there's a good evo thread going!

181 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:31:56pm

re: #175 ploome hineni

We chose the classes we were enrolled in. It was a boarding school and if you wanted to do Religious education you could, but you could chose something else.

The choices were made at the start of the school year. Parents could assist in choosing the classes, most left it to the students and counselors.

182 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:31:58pm

re: #179 tunnelrat

Yes, we can discern what environments were like then. We can even estimate the amounts of CO2 and O2 in the atmposhere at the time.

Read up on geology some time. It's really fascinating.

183 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:32:37pm

re: #170 pre-Boomer Marine brat

DAMN I'm glad I didn't have a mouthful of food!

They don't do the Folsum Street Fair in the Bible belt.

/morality is only relative to a point

184 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:32:47pm

re: #152 guftafs

I don't think man's intellectual capacities need to be further developed--they are what enabled man to go to the moon. 2,000+ years of religion did not bring us one inch closer to it. Not to denigrate religion, but think about it.

Excuse me.
Rousseau = the French Enlightenment
It's a historical/philosophical reference

/and to lifeofthemind and myself, a scatological reference as well

185 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:34:08pm

re: #166 shanec99

No it says a common ancestor... not monkeys.

You may think monkeys and many people believe that... but please quote one scientific document that says humans evolved from monkeys.

Common ancestor does not mean monkey.

I can give you this to read if you want.
But do you think that apes magically appeared on this planet as apes?
Common ancestry does show that man and ape have common ancestry, but you go back far enough and we also share common ancestry to all mammals.
There was a small shrew like animal that lived with the dinosaurs that is said to be the ancestor of all mammals on the earth today.

186 guftafs  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:34:11pm

re: #169 DesertSage

So people who believed in God and faith didn't have anything o do with the progress humankind has made over the past 2,000 years?
Is that what you're saying?

Of course religious people have contributed enormously to mankind's progress. In fact, my bet is that the majority of the great scientists and artists and so on were religious. But the contributions they made were not based on the scripture but on observation of this world. Gutenberg did not invent the printing press and the movable type by reading the bible and praying for divine guidance (although he printed one).

187 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:34:56pm

re: #178 guftafs

Well, I answered to pre-Boomer marine brat question if I thought man's intellectual capacities would make religion unnecessary. I think so and showed how powerless religion is when dealing with the real world. "Getting to god" is "getting nowhere" as far as I'm concerned, since proof is severly lacking as to where god resides.

With all due respect, guftafs ... leave this line of discussion alone

188 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:35:19pm

re: #177 pre-Boomer Marine brat

China... I remember learning about a fellow names Buddha whose ideas influenced that society. Am I wrong?

Wasn't Buddha the fellow whose ideas got adopted by Confucius like do unto others as you would have them do unto you?

Something from my religious ed days in school.

189 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:36:02pm

re: #182 Honorary Yooper

If you go back far enough in the history of the atmosphere, you come to a point where the atmosphere was reducing not oxidizing, because photosynthesis hadn't really got going; & all the iron ore bodies which are iron oxides were formed after photosynthesis had put a lot of oxygen into the atmosphere, so they think.

It is very fascinating.

190 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:36:08pm

re: #174 shanec99

The Mayans, Zoroastrians etc had a group of religious beliefs. Those beliefs told established behaviors that were good and bad and they eventually became codified as laws and morality.

Yes, and even though they were attributed to God, do you believe the Sun God came down and gave them what morals to follow.
Morals created by man for man and attributed to God to give them more oomph.

191 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:36:21pm
192 guftafs  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:36:25pm

re: #184 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Excuse me.
Rousseau = the French Enlightenment
It's a historical/philosophical reference

/and to lifeofthemind and myself, a scatological reference as well

re: #187 pre-Boomer Marine brat

With all due respect, guftafs ... leave this line of discussion alone

Why?

193 guftafs  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:36:42pm

re: #187 pre-Boomer Marine brat

With all due respect, guftafs ... leave this line of discussion alone

Why?

194 DesertSage  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:37:16pm

re: #178 guftafs

"Getting to god" is "getting nowhere" as far as I'm concerned, since proof is severly lacking as to where god resides.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. That's what's so great about our country, no one is forced to believe one way or another.

But there are tens of millions of people in this country that would disagree with your statement that "Getting to god" is "getting nowhere". Those people have a legitimate point of view in their opinion.

195 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:37:18pm

re: #179 tunnelrat

How does anybody know what happened 5, 10 or 25 million years ago? Why not 100 million years ago? Maybe 200 million years? It is impossible to prove. You are exhibiting a great deal of faith in a theory.

You really don't get science, do you?

196 Kulhwch  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:37:21pm

Ah.  <rubbing hands>

Thanks to our host for providing the entertainment.

}:)     [Intelligent Design is neither.]

197 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:37:22pm

re: #185 theatheistjew

Right... and that is my point.

Humans did not evolve from monkeys... it is a common misconception. They shared a common mammalian ancestor.

198 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:38:16pm

re: #162 Ojoe

Julian is one of the best

20 years ago, I waded through "Revelations..." twice. The English threw me, and so did some of her ways of phrasing. Definitely a mystic!

I've grown quite a bit since. It occured to be a few days ago that I should get a copy and re-study it now.

199 marjoriemoon  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:38:20pm

re: #158 Killgore Trout

Many Jainists and Buddhists are atheists and fine upstanding citizens. Twain, Thoreau, Einstein were all fine people. Belief in god does not make one morally superior no matter how many times you claim it.

I work with a man who is THE most ethical and moral person I've ever known and he's agnostic.

Actually, I believe it was Einstein who said, "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Although I don't consider that an endorsement to teach ID in school. It simply means one should know both.

200 Karridine  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:38:23pm
"In the beginning God created..."

"In the beginning God" means Source, not time, right?

No problem there...

201 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:39:42pm

re: #178 guftafs

God is everywhere & getting in this instance means an increasing awareness by an individual human being of the Creator, and his plans. You might find this quote by Thomas Merton interesting:

At the center of our being is a point of nothingness which is untouched by sin and by illusion, a point of pure truth, a point or spark which belongs entirely to God, which is never at our disposal, from which God disposes our lives, which is inaccessible to the fantasies of our own mind or the brutalities of our own will. This little point of nothingness and of absolute poverty is the pure glory of God in us. It is, so to speak, His name written in us…It is like a pure diamond, blazing with the invisible light of heaven. It is in everybody, and if we could see it we would see these billions of points of light coming together in the face and blaze of a sun that would make all the darkness and cruelty of life vanish completely.

202 Buster Bunny  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:40:05pm

Dont forget the times when religion has got things horribly wrong

The plague - killing pet animals, allowing the spread of the plague, then INTERRING family member with the infected.

The witch hunts - a case where i dont even have to specify how wrong they were, by means of trial .. evidence .. solution.

The arabian solution - nuff said

The castration of priests - in order to keep the church wealthy and allow for no inheritors of their worldly good.

aside from that .. religion is good wholesome fun, a game the whole family can play (ages 3 and up .. wafers may cause choking)

203 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:41:53pm
204 guftafs  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:42:20pm

re: #184 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Excuse me.
Rousseau = the French Enlightenment
It's a historical/philosophical reference

/and to lifeofthemind and myself, a scatological reference as well

I don't know enough about Rousseau but I think he was actually on the side of the reaction against the Enlightenment ideas formed at its peak. That this is the case is indicated by his influence on the French Revolution and the rather ugly turn it took. Not exacly rational or anything similar to the American Revolution.

205 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:42:23pm

re: #197 shanec99

Right... and that is my point.

Humans did not evolve from monkeys... it is a common misconception. They shared a common mammalian ancestor.

If you read the article I gave you, we share a common ancestor with monkeys 25 million years ago, and it was considered an old world monkey. It walked like a monkey, and squawked like a monkey.

Do you understand an evolutionary tree? Yes, all mammals trace back to a shrew like animal that lived around 100 million years ago, after the dinosaurs disappeared lots of diversification occurred, including a line that produced todays hippos and whales for example.

206 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:42:24pm

re: #188 shanec99

China... I remember learning about a fellow names Buddha whose ideas influenced that society. Am I wrong?

Wasn't Buddha the fellow whose ideas got adopted by Confucius like do unto others as you would have them do unto you?

Something from my religious ed days in school.

OH my god! There isn't enough time!

(It's not your fault. You simply asked the question of a student of Asian history.)

Bhuddism and Confucianism have different roots entirely, and different perspectives.

207 tunnelrat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:42:24pm

re: #195 theatheistjew

I still don't see any proof of evolution-- it is only a theory. I can't prove that God created the universe but neither can you prove that humans and apes went separate ways 25 million years ago. It takes faith to believe either way.

208 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:42:35pm
209 mossley  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:42:37pm

re: #23 littleO

I stated before that it doesn't matter whether ID is taught in our schools, or not. After all, who is going to teach it!
This is , however, unlaudable because opposition needed to rely upon the courts for what some consider to serious a topic to be left to the voters, or amaeters.
The citizens of this country should be allowed to tell legistlatures the laws they want.
States should be allowed to enact they, and their citizens feel are best for them.
Evolutionist are far off in their fear of common people.

I suspect you've never actually thought through the consequences of this rather silly argument. Or do you believe and respect the right of residents in, say Dearborn, MI, to teach that Allah is the only true god, and that no science be taught to students? Or do you believe the Aryan Nation holdouts in Idaho have the right to re-enact slavery, repeal the Civil Rights Laws and ban all mixed-race marriages? It's what the locals want after all.

And in case you couldn't follow the story, the people didn't want this taught. This nonsense was dictated by a school board. It was the local residents who sued to have it stopped.

And the only fear in this debate is the deep-seated, irrational fear of people who refuse to learn the least bit about science. They're afraid to think for themselves and blindly follow the rantings of power-hungry groups feeding off this fear. The world will not end and you will not go to hell for using the brains God gave you.

The Dark Ages ended centuries ago. Try to keep up with the modern world and stop trying to drag the rest of back into ignorance.

210 jorline  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:42:48pm

Good ID...Procal Harum.

211 hrhamilton  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:43:11pm

I have to confess that I have pretty much have overlooked these posts on Id versus evolutionism, since I am not too interested about the topic. I should confess that I am not too informed on either one, if one accepts several science courses at the bachelor level as being uninformed. I have no idea what ID is supposed to be, other than I understand it is an alternate approach to creation.

I would probably be more sympathetic to listening to both sides if the advocates would approach their topic with more humility and honesty, recognizing the shortcomings in each. Until then I will be sceptical.

Just so you know it, I believe that God created the earth, but since I was not there, I am perfectly willing to listen to different explanations of how the earth could have come into being. And since you weren't there, I will assume that you do not have perfect knowledge of the event either.

212 Summer  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:43:31pm

re: #207 tunnelrat

I still don't see any proof of evolution-- it is only a theory. I can't prove that God created the universe but neither can you prove that humans and apes went separate ways 25 million years ago. It takes faith to believe either way.

You really are misusing the term "theory". I hope it isn't deliberate.

213 yehoshua  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:43:58pm

How do evolutionists explain the fact that, in the concentration camps, the prisoners who gave from their meager daily rations to help other prisoners survived, while those who kept every scrap of food they found for themselves perished? This is written about in Viktor Frankl's classic Man's Search for Meaning.
Or, closer to home, how to explain the willingness of young Americans to enlist in the armed forces and thereby risk their lives? From a strictly evvolutionary perspective, self-sacrifice, courage, and love of freedom make no sense -- if survival alone is the goal. There is a higher purpose in life that could only be instilled by a Higher Power.

214 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:44:52pm

re: #207 tunnelrat

I still don't see any proof of evolution-- it is only a theory. I can't prove that God created the universe but neither can you prove that humans and apes went separate ways 25 million years ago. It takes faith to believe either way.

No, it just needs an understanding and appreciation of the scientific method. Maybe faith in the scientific method, but that would be changing the definition of faith.

215 Ford_Prefect  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:45:21pm

re: #207 tunnelrat

I still don't see any proof of evolution-- it is only a theory. I can't prove that God created the universe but neither can you prove that humans and apes went separate ways 25 million years ago. It takes faith to believe either way.

Perhaps, but in one case it takes only faith while in the other it takes faith and thought.

216 tunnelrat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:45:41pm

re: #212 Summer

In what way?

217 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:45:57pm

re: #180 transient

Darn it, I hate having to work when there's a good evo thread going!

I'll have a snack for you.

218 DesertSage  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:46:14pm

re: #186 guftafs

Gutenberg did not invent the printing press and the movable type by reading the bible and praying for divine guidance (although he printed one).

How do you know?

I'm not saying that Gutenberg was a religious man...I really don't know anything about Gutenberg's faith. But it is possible that he did have a deeply held faith and he was inspired by it.

People are inspired by faith all the time, and sometimes it does move society forward. William Wilberforce was inspired by a deep religious faith to do something to try and stop the slave trade. Faith can be a force for good as well as a force for bad.

219 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:47:14pm

re: #213 yehoshua

European anti-semitism, upon which the Holocaust was executed, existed for centuries before On The Origin of Spieces was written and published. I'm sure you were well aware of that before you tried to drag us through the mud, twit.

220 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:47:46pm

re: #178 guftafs

You need to look inward.

221 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:48:37pm

re: #213 yehoshua

How do evolutionists explain the fact that, in the concentration camps, the prisoners who gave from their meager daily rations to help other prisoners survived, while those who kept every scrap of food they found for themselves perished? This is written about in Viktor Frankl's classic Man's Search for Meaning.
Or, closer to home, how to explain the willingness of young Americans to enlist in the armed forces and thereby risk their lives? From a strictly evvolutionary perspective, self-sacrifice, courage, and love of freedom make no sense -- if survival alone is the goal. There is a higher purpose in life that could only be instilled by a Higher Power.

Survival alone is not the only goal. Procreation and survival are the goals.
It is innate in all of us, animals included to make it to procreation and give our offspring the best chance of keeping our species going.
Have you ever seen crocodile mothers gingerly transport her babies from water to land and visa versa? If survival was our only innate goal, the croc would chow down on her babies.

222 Summer  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:49:40pm

re: #216 tunnelrat

A theory is a different term in science than the every day use of the word "theory". Saying that Evolution is "just a theory" means you really don't understand the definition of the word. Gravity is "just a theory". Atomic theory is "just a theory". Relativity is "just a theory". Quantum theory is "just a theory". But you can't prove them wrong, much as we try over and over and over again every day.

What you said about Evolution is no different than saying "Nuclear bombs are just a theory". Or "my computer is just theory-based".

That is how you are misusing the term.

223 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:49:55pm

re: #190 theatheistjew

Yes, and even though they were attributed to God, do you believe the Sun God came down and gave them what morals to follow.
Morals created by man for man and attributed to God to give them more oomph.


What I believe is that wise men (Shamans... and others) who observed behaviors that were beneficial to society believed the beneficial behaviors were inspired by God.

They documented their observations about the things that were beneficial, and they taught the communities that for their society to prosper people should follow these rules.

Over time the rules that started off as oral teachings got written down and became an organized series of beliefs that the societies came to call religion.

Because the oldest wise men believe they were inspired by God then the rules were thought to have come from God and religion became the basis of the local laws.

224 Cartman  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:50:29pm

re: #220 Noam Sayin'

You need to look inward.

That may have already taken place, and the results may not have been to his liking.

225 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:50:38pm

re: #23 littleO

I stated before that it doesn't matter whether ID is taught in our schools, or not. After all, who is going to teach it!
This is , however, unlaudable because opposition needed to rely upon the courts for what some consider to serious a topic to be left to the voters, or amaeters.
The citizens of this country should be allowed to tell legistlatures the laws they want.
States should be allowed to enact they, and their citizens feel are best for them.
Evolutionist are far off in their fear of common people.

Sal: Yeah, that worked real well for Jim Crow and poll taxes.

226 guftafs  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:50:48pm

re: #218 DesertSage

How do you know?

I'm not saying that Gutenberg was a religious man...I really don't know anything about Gutenberg's faith. But it is possible that he did have a deeply held faith and he was inspired by it.

People are inspired by faith all the time, and sometimes it does move society forward. William Wilberforce was inspired by a deep religious faith to do something to try and stop the slave trade. Faith can be a force for good as well as a force for bad.

It's a pretty safe bet that everybody were religious during the 16th century, at least compared to today. Let me toss the first question back to you and ask you to show how faith (belief despite a lack of observational evidence) guided Gutenberg when inventing the printing press.

227 Josephine  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:50:51pm

re: #70 republic

But the evil that is islam is not what is taught in American public schools.

It's all unicorns eating in fields of cotton candy and baskets full of puppies and stuff.

I wonder if they teach that the koran, from cover to cover, instructs, demands of its followers to "kill the unbelievers wherever they are"?

My (atheist) daughter decided to read the Koran herself (at 13 or 14) because of what her father and I were telling her. She was convinced fairly quickly.

228 jorline  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:51:38pm

Evolution is not theory...fact,

You Keep Me Hanging On

was much better when Vanilla Fudge recorded it.

229 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:51:48pm

re: #224 Cartman

Yeah, I was just pinning it on him.

230 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:52:23pm

re: #198 pre-Boomer Marine brat

There is a new translation I'll go to the house and get it:

The revelations of... Norwich...


Translated, with a new introduction, by

M.L. del Mastro

Burns & Oates (England)

Reprinted 1995

ISBN 0 86102 232 8

231 Ford_Prefect  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:53:06pm

re: #221 theatheistjew

Survival alone is not the only goal. Procreation and survival are the goals.
It is innate in all of us, animals included to make it to procreation and give our offspring the best chance of keeping our species going.
Have you ever seen crocodile mothers gingerly transport her babies from water to land and visa versa? If survival was our only innate goal, the croc would chow down on her babies.

Well put. There are also certain types of birds that will feign injury, making themselves appear vulnerable, to attract the attention of predators away from their young, thus sacrificing themselves for the good of their offspring.

232 Summer  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:53:28pm

re: #216 tunnelrat

In other words, in the tool we call Science, a "theory" is better than a "fact". A "theory" encompasses an overall explanation which answers tons of questions and provides tons of facts as a solution - in rough layperson's terms.

A "theory" is a wrapper into which "facts" fit in. It is better than just a "fact".

So saying that Evolution is "just a theory" means you really need to relearn your terminology in science class before continuing the discussion. =)

233 Opilio  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:53:31pm

re: #62 Opilio

It just that, after a while, these ID threads usually devolve into the bellicose, truculent, vitriolic, and vituperative.

And AWAY WE GO...

/channelling Jackie Gleason

234 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:53:42pm

re: #32 Killian Bundy

Welcome to reality. They're entitled to their beliefs like everyone else in this country. You can't stop them, you can only hope to contain them.

/we know one thing, the outcome is certain, they'll lose

Sal: But they are not entitled to cram their sectarian religious dogmas down the throats of kids in public high school science class.

235 transient  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:53:56pm

re: #217 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I'll have a snack for you.

And a stiff drink, please! Thanks!

236 tunnelrat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:54:35pm

re: #222 Summer

Would you consider "global warming" to be a theory? Why or why not?

237 swamprat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:55:18pm

At minute 53 two strands of DNA are shown to have "merged". Although predicted, there is a missing "centromere" which is studiously ignored. FinnAgain:, I was correct about seemingly convergent DNA. At minute 47.02, I learned that the wily creationists have kept those transitional fossils out of the classroom. At minute 48.10, I leaned that "theories have more weight" than facts. From the music I have assumed that Dover, Pennsylvania is somewhere in Mississippi, but I can't find it on a map. I do know that it is a rural, rural, rural, town. I lost count of the rurals. Possibly I was distracted by the banjos and blues music. The best part is when a chromosome is predicted that will have two centromeres with a endomere in the center. Somehow they claim "victory!", while totally ignoring the missing centromere. And I don't recall merging DNA as part of the Evolution Science. Could this be a hybrid? Or two existing (in one specie) chromosomes? And here is the most important question. Do we have any other examples of merged DNA?

238 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:55:31pm

re: #224 Cartman

That may have already taken place, and the results may not have been to his liking.

Possible.

239 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:55:34pm

re: #205 theatheistjew

If you read the article I gave you, we share a common ancestor with monkeys 25 million years ago, and it was considered an old world monkey. It walked like a monkey, and squawked like a monkey.

Do you understand an evolutionary tree? Yes, all mammals trace back to a shrew like animal that lived around 100 million years ago, after the dinosaurs disappeared lots of diversification occurred, including a line that produced todays hippos and whales for example.

It walked like a monkey, but it had a capacity to grow into something that was had a greater intellectual capacity than a monkey.

Please do not presume that you know anything about my academic back ground. I do understand what an evolutionary tree is.

Because a horse and donkey look alike does not mean a horse is a donkey. It means they may have shared a common ancestor... but one did not evolve from the other... they both evolved from the same ancestor, not from each other.

It is the same with humans and other primates.

240 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:55:56pm

re: #223 shanec99

What I believe is that wise men (Shamans... and others) who observed behaviors that were beneficial to society believed the beneficial behaviors were inspired by God.

They documented their observations about the things that were beneficial, and they taught the communities that for their society to prosper people should follow these rules.

Over time the rules that started off as oral teachings got written down and became an organized series of beliefs that the societies came to call religion.

Because the oldest wise men believe they were inspired by God then the rules were thought to have come from God and religion became the basis of the local laws.

They BELIEVED they were speaking for God. Don't forget almost everyone in ancient cultures believed there was God or Gods in order to explain things like lightning.

I came across this just yesterday. Hammurabi's Code Of Laws
Hammurabi was the king of Babylon around 1750 BC. He thought he had a direct line with the sun God.
Many of his laws make a lot of sense. There are over 200 of them.
In fact, they predate the 10 Commandments and 613 Mitzvahs by at least 500 years (probably over 1000 years, but that is another story).

Are you saying that God is needed for morality, or that laws are needed to be attributed to God in order to be affective?
The answer today is no. We have laws now, that I abide to and keep society moral. Some of them are based on Judeo-Christian law, but many are not.

241 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:56:02pm

re: #234 Salamantis

But they are not entitled to cram their sectarian religious dogmas down the throats of kids in public high school science class.

Gee, where are they allowed to do that?

/and let's welcome all our militant atheist commenters

242 mossley  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:57:06pm

re: #207 tunnelrat

I still don't see any proof of evolution-- it is only a theory. I can't prove that God created the universe but neither can you prove that humans and apes went separate ways 25 million years ago. It takes faith to believe either way.

There are none so blind as those who refuse to see...

If you want to be taken seriously, learn the definition of "theory". Your throwing it around like you are indicates you have no understanding of what a scientific theory is. Here's a clue - theory does not equal bad or flawed.

There is plenty of empirical evidence to answer everything you've brought up in your various posts. Do some reading. Don't be afraid of actually learning something.

243 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:57:24pm

re: #35 Dr. Shalit

Charles -

For what it is worth, the REAL argument is clouded in metaphor. it reallly comes down to faith/belief in an "UNCAUSED CAUSE." One either has it or has not. Everything else follows from there.

-S-

Sal: I updinged this because it is true; the embrace of ID is based upon religious belief. And that's precisely why it follows that ID does not belong in public high school science class.

244 mama winger  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:57:29pm

re: #231 Ford_Prefect

Well put. There are also certain types of birds that will feign injury, making themselves appear vulnerable, to attract the attention of predators away from their young, thus sacrificing themselves for the good of their offspring.

Then Western Europeans and liberal upper class Americans are not evolved. They are not seeking to reproduce, and are apt to sacrifice their offspring for their own personal gain.

245 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:57:57pm

re: #230 Ojoe

There is a new translation I'll go to the house and get it:

The revelations of... Norwich...


Translated, with a new introduction, by

M.L. del Mastro

Burns & Oates (England)

Reprinted 1995

ISBN 0 86102 232 8

Hmmm. Just ordered a Penguin edition.
I've copied this biblio info into a note file.

246 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:58:21pm

re: #235 transient

And a stiff drink, please! Thanks!

Will do

247 Josephine  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:58:55pm

re: #123 guftafs

...Naturally there will always be religious people, even people of otherwise excellent character...

Of otherwise excellent character?

Do you mean of excellent character despite their religion?

248 Summer  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:59:17pm

re: #236 tunnelrat

Would you consider "global warming" to be a theory? Why or why not?

No, global warming is not a scientific theory. Global warming would be a hypothesis at best.

I wish ID supporters would stop throwing this one in our faces. Not only is the line "Evolution is just a theory" disingenuous, turning around and claiming that global warming is considered a proper scientific theory is ludicrous as well. It isn't.

And it doesn't even fall into the realm of what a theory would define. Global warming would be an observable phenomenon at best - which it isn't quite yet. It has nothing to do with scientific theory. Again: Scientific theory defines an entire body of questions and solves them with a testable solution. Global warming is none of that.

249 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:59:46pm

re: #236 tunnelrat

Would you consider "global warming" to be a theory? Why or why not?

An entirely different line of science, but global warming, or rather climate change is always happening. The problem here, like ID, is that the idea of man-made climate change is politicised. Most scientists aren't sure if humans can even modify the climate. The people who signed on with Gore are mostly politicians and activists.

Just like ID, it's the non-scientists who are pushing man-made climate change without evidence, and with evidence to the contrary.

250 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:00:02pm

re: #44 yehoshua

Sorry, but anything promoted by PBS -- global warming, retreat from Iraq, a Palestinian state, the theory of evolution --
should not be taken seriously.

Sal: This particular fallacy is known as the fallacy of argument from association.

251 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:00:46pm

re: #239 shanec99

It walked like a monkey, but it had a capacity to grow into something that was had a greater intellectual capacity than a monkey.

Please do not presume that you know anything about my academic back ground. I do understand what an evolutionary tree is.

Because a horse and donkey look alike does not mean a horse is a donkey. It means they may have shared a common ancestor... but one did not evolve from the other... they both evolved from the same ancestor, not from each other.

It is the same with humans and other primates.

How about this? There was a time when no humans or chimps existed, but there were Old World monkeys who were the common ancestor of all the chimps, humans, and monkeys on the planet today.

252 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:00:53pm

re: #233 Opilio

And AWAY WE GO...

/channelling Jackie Gleason

LOL!

253 tunnelrat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:02:24pm

re: #242 mossley

Please do not speak to me like a child. I do understand that a theory and a fact are not necessarily the same thing.

254 DesertSage  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:02:34pm

re: #226 guftafs

It's a pretty safe bet that everybody were religious during the 16th century, at least compared to today. Let me toss the first question back to you and ask you to show how faith (belief despite a lack of observational evidence) guided Gutenberg when inventing the printing press.

I already told you, I don't know whether faith drove Gutenberg's desire toward invention or not. I don't know what his personal beliefs were.

We do know though that many people who are scientists, inventors and political leaders are driven in their endeavors by a deep seated quest for spiritual enlightenment. I'm not saying it's a prerequisite by any means, but it worked for them.
And I'm not saying that a person who doesn't have a quest for spiritual enlightenment can't be equally as prolific in their endeavors. That's why our country is the best, because we're free to pick our path and we're not forced to choose one way or the other.

255 Summer  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:03:02pm

Again, global warming isn't presented as a scientific theory. If somebody is presenting it that way, then they are either ignorant or lying.

Scientific theory covers fundamentals in science and nothing else. Global warming, if true, would have to be explained by many scientific theories. A theory would, technically, try to explain global warming - not the other way around.

So for ID people to throw this around as proof that science "doesn't work" is complete and utter bullshit. It means they really either are:

1) Lying or...

2) Completely ignorant of the scientific method.

256 Ford_Prefect  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:03:03pm

re: #244 mama winger

Then Western Europeans and liberal upper class Americans are not evolved. They are not seeking to reproduce, and are apt to sacrifice their offspring for their own personal gain.

Now now. It is not nice to make fun of those that can't keep up.

257 SayeretMatkal  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:03:14pm

re: #214 theatheistjew

No, it just needs an understanding and appreciation of the scientific method. Maybe faith in the scientific method, but that would be changing the definition of faith.

And faith in said "scientific method"...

Until somebody invents a time machine and witnesses the birth of the universe and the events leading up to the 21st Century, it is a matter of faith. Since we have no such technology, we are left here to study, observe, and have faith in our findings. IDers, Evolutionists or any other alternative believers, that's what they do. The means vary, the evidence is scrutinized and ideas are made, but... it is still faith. Bottom line.

I for one am a young Earth Creationist. I have come to my own faith conclusions by what I have studied, witnessed and observed. Would I be called un-scientific? Yes, many people would unashamedly label me that without any consideration for what I actually thought.

But what makes me any "less scientific" than Evolutionists? By labeling the opposing theory as "religious nonsense", am I not ruining the very basis of science- which is observe from all sides to determine fact? How UN-SCIENTIFIC is that of them? I'd go so far as to call it their own religion (but then I'd be labeled a hypocrite).

It's an interesting paradox- to require faith in a theory that itself would try to convince you didn't require faith, only "logic" or "science".

"Have faith that you don't require faith." - Doesn't really work out, buddies.

That's my 2 cents.

:P

258 Josephine  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:03:36pm

re: #144 shanec99

We did not evolve from monkeys... nor does evolution say so.
Evolution suggests that human and great apes had a common ancestor.
What I learned in anthropology suggests that modern humans evolved from an ancestor who lived in east Africa, not a monkey.

This interests me.

What do you (or anyone who cares to offer their opinion) think the common ancestor might have been?

What type of being could have, as descendants, both apes and humans?

Does the study of genetics tell us anything about this yet?

259 Summer  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:03:58pm

re: #253 tunnelrat

You obviously don't. You used the line claiming that Evolution is "just a theory". That means you don't understand the difference between a scientific theory and individual "facts".

260 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:04:00pm

re: #213 yehoshua


From a strictly evvolutionary perspective, self-sacrifice, courage, and love of freedom make no sense -- if survival alone is the goal.


It's survival of the species that counts, not the individual.

261 patrickafir  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:04:03pm

Good. Enough of this nonsense already — it's the twenty-first century for crying out loud.

262 mama winger  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:04:20pm

re: #256 Ford_Prefect

Now now. It is not nice to make fun of those that can't keep up.

I'm not making fun of anyone.

You are making an argument that the point of evolution is to survive and reproduce. I am saying that I see much evidence to the contrary.

263 DesertSage  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:04:47pm

re: #231 Ford_Prefect

Well put. There are also certain types of birds that will feign injury, making themselves appear vulnerable, to attract the attention of predators away from their young, thus sacrificing themselves for the good of their offspring.

I experienced that first hand a few months ago. It was a dove.

264 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:04:52pm

re: #244 mama winger

Then Western Europeans and liberal upper class Americans are not evolved. They are not seeking to reproduce, and are apt to sacrifice their offspring for their own personal gain.

Not necessarily so. In ant colonies very few ants are capable of getting involved in the reproductive cycle but they are key ingredients in keeping the species going to the next generation.

Today's human who looks at a world with limited resources and 6.5 billion people, could make a rational decision not to have children in order to help future generations.
Also, childless humans can still help relatives and friends with kids.

I have no children btw.

265 Kulhwch  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:05:10pm
re: #79 Sharmuta
re: #73 Charles

The burning of the mural is new to me, and really disturbing when one thinks of the historical analogies.

Yeah, nothing like censure of speech, text, belief, art, etc., to further one's cause, huh?

}:)     [Ah, the gentle fascists that cowardly burnt that mural ... ]

266 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:05:27pm

re: #244 mama winger

Then Western Europeans and liberal upper class Americans are not evolved. They are not seeking to reproduce, and are apt to sacrifice their offspring for their own personal gain.

DAMMIT, Mama, you owe me for a KEYBOARD!

267 Luigi  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:06:46pm

FYI: Humans did not evolve from apes. Apes and humans both evolved from a common ancestor.

268 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:06:52pm

re: #247 Josephine

Of otherwise excellent character?

Do you mean of excellent character despite their religion?

Josephine, he corrected himself a few posts later. He deleted "otherwise".

269 mama winger  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:07:13pm

re: #264 theatheistjew

Today's human who looks at a world with limited resources and 6.5 billion people, could make a rational decision not to have children in order to help future generations.

Any rational human can look at the demographics and see that islam will soon rule Eurasia, and other post-Christian countries are not far behind.

This is not survival.

270 Ford_Prefect  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:07:36pm

re: #263 DesertSage

I experienced that first hand a few months ago. It was a dove.

I have seen it myself with Quail.

271 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:07:43pm

re: #257 SayeretMatkal

Viewing stars in the solar system is like having a time machine. Again, you have to be completely wilfully ignorant of science to be a YEC.

272 BuddyG  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:08:00pm

On this 4th of July, God Bless America.

273 guftafs  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:08:02pm

re: #134 shanec99

Interesting point of view, but I beg to differ.

Religion teaches people how to get along.

It provides a grounding in morality and gives a cohesion necessary for the functioning of a modern complex society.

A society without laws based in religious teaching would be a dangerous place to live in because it would not recognize the principle of right and wrong so frequently articulated in the Scriptures.

Grounding morality in religion is a non-starter. There's an excellent lecture on that topic at aynrand.org, registration required. One of the main points was that what the grounding ultimately consists in is "because God says so". O-Kay, so if God tells us, as he did to Abraham, kill your first-born, then we should do so, because God is the source of all good. In fact, if God says, "Thou shalt kill", we should do so and it would be good, because his mere saying so is enough for us.

Isn't the much more likely explanation to the origins of the commandments that the city fathers of wherever sat down and wrote them because they were tired with anarchy and this was the best they could come up with at the time?

274 grumpy old codger  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:08:26pm

Again, I do not believe that man is capable of comprehending what God has in mind and, therefore, the story of creation is not literal, but rather allegorical. We ccan not comprehend His Truth, so He has it explained to us in a story that makes it easier for us to understand His goals. darwin discovered the process, not the cause.

275 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:08:34pm

re: #260 Killgore Trout

It's survival of the species that counts, not the individual.

/makes me want to take a sledgehammer to that + button

276 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:08:36pm

BTW, the whole "God is the only source of morality" thing is crap. I've had this debate enough times that I think I know where it's coming from. It's a claim of morally superiority to make yourself feel better but you need to look at it from the other side; you are also claiming others, who don't believe in your version of god, to be less moral than yourself. It's very dangerous ground to tread.

277 mama winger  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:08:39pm

re: #270 Ford_Prefect

I have seen it myself with Quail.

Don't kid yourselves folks. Mother animals abandon their offspring all the time. They wind up at my workplace.

278 jorline  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:08:45pm

re: #267 Luigi

FYI: Humans did not evolve from apes. Apes and humans both evolved from a common ancestor.

And that common ancestor was?

279 Karridine  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:09:00pm

re: #264 theatheistjew

Today's human who looks at a world with limited resources and 6.5 billion people, could make a rational decision not to have children in order to help future generations.

The truth, however, is that because of human creativity and rational capacity, Earth's resources are practically unlimited.

The ONLY LIMITS are limited human thoughts.

280 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:09:24pm

re: #251 theatheistjew
I will say this and only this... humans and apes had a common ancestor whom you have chosen to call a monkey to support your theory that humans are evolved from monkey.

Now if you want to believe you were evolved from a monkey... more power to you.

My forebears may also have been the forebears of other hominids but they were not monkeys.

281 Ford_Prefect  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:09:49pm

re: #262 mama winger

I'm not making fun of anyone.

You are making an argument that the point of evolution is to survive and reproduce. I am saying that I see much evidence to the contrary.

As Killgor said above:

It's survival of the species that counts, not the individual.

Besides, evolution is not a straight line. There are many failures to one success.

282 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:10:41pm

re: #258 Josephine

A pre-human hominid.

Like Lucy.

283 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:10:50pm

re: #280 shanec99

I myself descended from bears.

I always check that box when a form asks me about my race.

284 swamprat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:10:53pm
285 finnagain  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:11:19pm

re: #260 Killgore Trout

It's survival of the species that counts, not the individual.

Strictly speaking, no, it's survival of like genes. That's the evolutionary basis for limited altruism.

A parent is very likely to sacrifice themselves for their children, as their children have the greatest percent of their genes and the highest evolutionary fitness. Likewise brothers for brothers, uncles for nephews, etc...
But once you get much farther from that, questions arise. While a parent is virtually guaranteed to jump in front of a speeding bus in order to throw their own child out of the way, they're highly unlikely to do the same for any random human simply because they're part of the species.

286 Luigi  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:11:30pm

Not him...

[Link: www.corante.com...]

287 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:11:35pm

re: #278 jorline

A pre-human hominid.

288 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:11:54pm

re: #283 Ojoe

"Ursuline"

289 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:11:59pm

Have the fireworks here been as awesome as those IRL tonight?

290 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:12:21pm

re: #258 Josephine

This interests me.

What do you (or anyone who cares to offer their opinion) think the common ancestor might have been?

What type of being could have, as descendants, both apes and humans?

Does the study of genetics tell us anything about this yet?

Yes genetics have told us lots about it.
Here is what science knows about human evolution from the first on celled animal to todays human.

291 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:12:25pm

re: #283 Ojoe

I myself descended from bears.

I always check that box when a form asks me about my race.

Wonderful... and you have a sense of humor too. lol.

292 Ford_Prefect  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:12:43pm

re: #277 mama winger

Don't kid yourselves folks. Mother animals abandon their offspring all the time. They wind up at my workplace.

Why can't I tell when you are kidding?

293 lifeofthemind  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:12:54pm

re: #204 guftafs

e: #184 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Excuse me.
Rousseau = the French Enlightenment
It's a historical/philosophical reference

/and to lifeofthemind and myself, a scatological reference as well

I don't know enough about Rousseau but I think he was actually on the side of the reaction against the Enlightenment ideas formed at its peak. That this is the case is indicated by his influence on the French Revolution and the rather ugly turn it took. Not exacly rational or anything similar to the American Revolution.


Step away for a few minutes and the thread goes from Eschatology to Scatology.

guftafs The point is that the French Revolution, Terror and all. was not a reaction against the Enlightenment. It was a natural conclusion of an excessive devotion to Reason devoid of morality. Robesspierre created a society devoted to Virtue and the guillotine was seen as a rational and humane educational tool. The reaction againat the Age of Reason was Romanticism.

294 solomonpanting  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:13:00pm

And some may think today's rhetoric is harsh. From the Scopes Trial:

Clarence Darrow:

"We have the purpose of preventing bigots and ignoramuses from controlling the education of the United States."


Bryan chastised evolution for teaching children that humans were but one of (precisely) 35,000 types of mammals and bemoaned the fact that human beings were descended "Not even from American monkeys, but from old world monkeys"

How patriotic of him!

the stories of the Bible could not be scientific and should not be used in teaching science with Darrow telling Bryan, "You insult every man of science and learning in the world because he does not believe in your fool religion."

The more things change...

295 mama winger  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:13:09pm

re: #292 Ford_Prefect

Why can't I tell when you are kidding?

Ask me.

I'm not.

296 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:13:35pm

re: #55 shanec99

Rasta, you know when I was at Munro we had scripture classes, all the way up to GCE O levels and there was never a problem.

Please explain to me why religious education is so wrong if it does not force kids to worship.

Sal: Whose scripture? There's not time for everyone's. But it's all or none in public school; no one could be left out. The Old and New Testaments, the Quran, the Zend Avesta, the Zohar, the Talmud, the Sepher Yetzirah, the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price, the Kybalion, the Tao Te Ching, the Chuang Tse, the Secret of the Golden Flower, the Epic of Gilgamesh, the Egyptian and Tibetan Books of the Dead, the Descent of Inanna, the Norse Myths, the Heart, Diamond and Lotus Sutras, the Platform Sutra of Hui Neng, the Rig Veda, the Dhammapadda, the Upanishads, the Bhagavad Gita, the works of Dogen and the Bab and Bahá’u’lláh and Abdu’l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi, and on and on and on...

297 jorline  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:13:51pm

Common ancestor...the monkey fish frog...that's the ticket!

298 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:14:04pm

re: #278 jorline

A hah! The Colonel's kid!

Should have asked before I clocked out last night. What th' heck is your avatar?!?!?

299 jorline  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:15:15pm

re: #287 shanec99

A pre-human hominid.

see my 297 shane

300 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:16:32pm

re: #299 jorline

see my 297 shane

Heh heh heh... too funny

301 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:16:38pm

re: #269 mama winger

Any rational human can look at the demographics and see that islam will soon rule Eurasia, and other post-Christian countries are not far behind.

This is not survival.

It is survival. Our culture versus theirs. Even chimps have territorial fights. In social animals, a big part of evolution is boundaries and keeping what is yours regardless if the same species lives next door, he isn't in your tribe so he represents a danger to your clan.

302 jorline  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:17:37pm

re: #298 pre-Boomer Marine brat

A hah! The Colonel's kid!

Should have asked before I clocked out last night. What th' heck is your avatar?!?!?

Do you remember Space Ghost?

Even at 54, we still refer to him as the Colonel...LOL

303 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:18:24pm

re: #293 lifeofthemind

I TOLD you not to step away!
It was all YOUR fault!

/kidding, in case you can't tell

304 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:18:37pm

re: #276 Killgore Trout

BTW, the whole "God is the only source of morality" thing is crap. I've had this debate enough times that I think I know where it's coming from. It's a claim of morally superiority to make yourself feel better but you need to look at it from the other side; you are also claiming others, who don't believe in your version of god, to be less moral than yourself. It's very dangerous ground to tread.

Religion, for the most part, is a tried and true, tested by time, source of morality, a way of life, of culture surviving across centuries, imperfect as it may be.

I, for one, embrace my religion, it provides proven life lessons.

/San Francisco values do not a healthy society make, just ask the Romans

305 opilio  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:18:43pm

Without addressing the Origins of Man, this Evolutionary Tree illustration nonetheless seems to make a statement regarding the Origins of Woman.

/

306 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:18:50pm
307 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:18:56pm

re: #64 shanec99

ID is essentially a philosophical position and should be studied as such, rather than as a scientific discipline.

The assertions of ID cannot be demonstrated with scientific tests, and until we can demonstrate the validity of ID through tests that can be reproduced under strict scientific scrutiny then we should avoid the pretense that it is science.

Sal: The existence and/or the attributes of deities aren't dealt with by philosophy; the're dealt with by theology. And anything that is intelligent and powerful enough to create the whole damn Universe could be called nothing less than a deity.

308 Ford_Prefect  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:19:16pm

Well, I am off to catch some ZZZ's.

Everyone have a safe and happy weekend.

309 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:19:39pm
310 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:20:01pm

re: #280 shanec99

I will say this and only this... humans and apes had a common ancestor whom you have chosen to call a monkey to support your theory that humans are evolved from monkey.

Now if you want to believe you were evolved from a monkey... more power to you.

My forebears may also have been the forebears of other hominids but they were not monkeys.

Here read this, and tell me what they were.

311 SayeretMatkal  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:20:04pm

re: #271 theatheistjew

Viewing stars in the solar system is like having a time machine. Again, you have to be completely wilfully ignorant of science to be a YEC.

Oh? And why's that? Were you there when the universe started? Because, I mean SURELY you must know exactly how the distance of stars would cement our universal history theories...right?

So it's completely impossible that perhaps some intelligent being set the universe and all related material into motion with everything already occurring, thereby creating a planet that was already hit by the light of stars? Or that the light of dying stars is relatively new BECAUSE of such a creation? Am I truly ignoring the evidence? I'm not denying the vast expanse of the universe or the incredibly long distances light must travel to reach us, but I am open to the thought that perhaps it was STARTED on the same motion, not chaotic and unplanned like the "big bang" theory. So is that okay? Does considering other options make me stupid?

I suppose it's a moot point to ask- I forgot you lived back then. I guess I'll go back to my "willfully ignorant" life and let you reminisce about your childhood during the sparking of the universe.

312 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:20:46pm

re: #302 jorline

Do you remember Space Ghost?

Even at 54, we still refer to him as the Colonel...LOL

Space Ghost? No.

Maybe the problem is my age, or the fact that I quit watching TV 25+ years ago.

313 guftafs  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:20:59pm

re: #293 lifeofthemind

Step away for a few minutes and the thread goes from Eschatology to Scatology.

guftafs The point is that the French Revolution, Terror and all. was not a reaction against the Enlightenment. It was a natural conclusion of an excessive devotion to Reason devoid of morality. Robesspierre created a society devoted to Virtue and the guillotine was seen as a rational and humane educational tool. The reaction againat the Age of Reason was Romanticism.

Wiki entry

In his main writings, Rousseau identifies nature with the primitive state of savage man. Later he took nature to mean the spontaneity of the process by which man builds his egocentric, instinct based character and his little world. Nature thus signifies interiority and integrity, as opposed to that imprisonment and enslavement which society imposes in the name of progressive emancipation from cold-hearted brutality.

Hence, to go back to nature means to restore to man the forces of this natural process, to place him outside every oppressing bond of society and the prejudices of civilization. It is this idea that made his thought particularly important in Romanticism, though Rousseau himself is sometimes regarded as a figure of The Enlightenment.[3]

Despite some similarities in thought, there is little evidence that Rousseau had an impact on Thomas Jefferson and, indeed, he seems to have had little impact on 18th century political thought in the United States, which was dominated by Republicanism and Liberalism. However he did have some influence on several later Transcendentalists such as theologian William Ellery Channing and philosopher Henry David Thoreau.[4]

314 mama winger  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:21:19pm

re: #301 theatheistjew

It is survival. Our culture versus theirs. Even chimps have territorial fights. In social animals, a big part of evolution is boundaries and keeping what is yours regardless if the same species lives next door, he isn't in your tribe so he represents a danger to your clan.

My point, which apparently I am making badly , is this:

The claim was made that the purpose of evolution is twofold:

1. Survival
2. Reproduction

I am saying that in present day human populations, I am not seeing either one of those instincts at operable or effective levels. Case in point:

Certain populations are purposefully not having children, and are not exhibiting any survival instincts. On the contrary, they seem to be welcoming their extinction. I give you Europe.

My conclusion would be then, that only muslims are climbing the evolutionary ladder successfully.

315 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:21:28pm

re: #282 shanec99

A pre-human hominid.

Like Lucy.

And before Lucy? Read this.

316 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:21:41pm

re: #71 shanec99

Were they being indoctrinated or were they being asked to explore other possibilities?

Sal: It is not the business of public high school science classes to instruct their students to explore religious possibilities.

317 DesertSage  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:21:48pm

I've been in a Catholic church exactly one time in my life, it was for a funeral. I never had to stand up and sit down so many times in my entire life. It was starting to piss me off. I've also heard that you have to eat some kind of bland cracker and say Hail Mary's.

If this is what all you former Catholics had to put up with in your formative years, I'd be seriously questioning faith and religion also.

Luckily, I never had to experience such things in my youth. So my personal quest for enlightenment has taken a bright, cheerful and pleasant path.

Good luck to all of you who are still harboring resentment towards the Catholic church, I don't envy your predicament.

318 Kulhwch  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:22:08pm

re: #126 tunnelrat

Sorry folks, but I just do not believe that everything we see just "happened" or that we evolved from monkeys.

You're right, none of us evolved from monkeys and nothing "just 'happened'".

To me that is ridiculous!

}:D     [I'm finding a lot of ridiculous ideas myself.]

319 lifeofthemind  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:22:31pm

re: #296 Salamantis

Sal: Whose scripture? There's not time for everyone's. But it's all or none in public school; no one could be left out. The Old and New Testaments, the Quran, the Zend Avesta, the Zohar, the Talmud, the Sepher Yetzirah, the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price, the Kybalion, the Tao Te Ching, the Chuang Tse, the Secret of the Golden Flower, the Epic of Gilgamesh, the Egyptian and Tibetan Books of the Dead, the Descent of Inanna, the Norse Myths, the Heart, Diamond and Lotus Sutras, the Platform Sutra of Hui Neng, the Rig Veda, the Dhammapadda, the Upanishads, the Bhagavad Gita, the works of Dogen and the Bab and Bahá’u’lláh and Abdu’l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi, and on and on and on...

My vision for Iran, and her neighbors, is a place where people can come and safely preach all of those beliefs. the locals should be free to choose any or none or even two at a time if they wish. No one should be forced. You can say what you want in your house but anyone who raises a hand to compel belief should be stopped. Without the threat of violence which faiths will survive?

320 Naso Tang  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:23:02pm

I'm just curious. Why this one now? It's old news.

There are plenty more of the same in the wings, here in Florida and I believe in Texas and elsewhere too.

Could it be for the benefit of those who, obviously, either don't know of Dover, or who have never read the details of the case?

321 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:23:12pm

re: #306 ploome hineni

That's the whole problem. Morality is decided by society. It was morally accepted in Southern society to own blacks, it was morally accepted in Germany to kill Jews. These were "Christian" societies who set these standards. Unfortunately, morality is decided by our fellow human beings and is no means universal and just. I wish it was.

322 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:23:13pm

re: #310 theatheistjew

Here read this, and tell me what they were.

Please stop forcing Wikipedia down my throat.

The journals I read say hominid... and its the term I use for my ancestor, not monkey.

Chose what you want to call your ancestor... if you want to call your ancestor a monkey... then go ahead mine i not a monkey.

Mine is a hominid.

323 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:23:25pm

re: #305 opilio

Without addressing the Origins of Man, this Evolutionary Tree illustration nonetheless seems to make a statement regarding the Origins of Woman.

/

Notice that she's over by the gorilla. Obviously goes for big hairy brutes.

324 lifeofthemind  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:23:50pm

re: #303 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I TOLD you not to step away!
It was all YOUR fault!

/kidding, in case you can't tell

I thought people were more likely to say "Now Sir, put that down and step away slowly." I can tell.

325 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:23:55pm

re: #314 mama winger

My point, which apparently I am making badly , is this:

The claim was made that the purpose of evolution is twofold:

1. Survival
2. Reproduction

I am saying that in present day human populations, I am not seeing either one of those instincts at operable or effective levels. Case in point:

Certain populations are purposefully not having children, and are not exhibiting any survival instincts. On the contrary, they seem to be welcoming their extinction. I give you Europe.

My conclusion would be then, that only muslims are climbing the evolutionary ladder successfully.

True and terrifying.

326 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:24:13pm

re: #320 Naso Tang

I'm just curious. Why this one now?


Because.

327 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:24:30pm
328 Naso Tang  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:24:35pm

re: #306 ploome hineni

how do we, most of us, come to a consensus of what is moral?

If that is a serious question in your mind, then by all means just do as you are told, and you may be OK.

329 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:24:41pm

bbl

330 jorline  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:24:56pm

re: #312 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Space Ghost? No.

Maybe the problem is my age, or the fact that I quit watching TV 25+ years ago.

A cartoon during the 60's. Space Ghost had a side-kick monkey that later evolved into the co-star of the show...just kidding, kind of fit the thread.

331 Nemesis6  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:25:17pm

Amazing documentary, addressed all the points I knew, taught me a lot more. The sad thing is, it doesn't mention how in 2007, Dover went right back to an anti-science majority in the school board. Now the same thing is happening in Louisiana, pushing another law worded exactly like the Intelligent Design movement, pushing for "criticism", etc of Evolution, and it's pushed by the Creationist mayor.

332 marjoriemoon  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:25:32pm

re: #273 guftafs

Grounding morality in religion is a non-starter. There's an excellent lecture on that topic at aynrand.org, registration required. One of the main points was that what the grounding ultimately consists in is "because God says so". O-Kay, so if God tells us, as he did to Abraham, kill your first-born, then we should do so, because God is the source of all good. In fact, if God says, "Thou shalt kill", we should do so and it would be good, because his mere saying so is enough for us.

Isn't the much more likely explanation to the origins of the commandments that the city fathers of wherever sat down and wrote them because they were tired with anarchy and this was the best they could come up with at the time?

The short answer is No. But it would require a much longer study than anyone here could give you.

Abraham was the father of the Jews and his trials and tribulations were unique to him as was many of the early scholars during the time that God had a more "hand's on" approach. According to Jewish tradition, Issac knew he was going to be sacrificed and went willingly, btw. The entire episode teaches us that child sacrifice is an abomination, as child sacrifice was common to the people at the time. God was saying he doesn't require it.

333 mama winger  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:25:42pm

re: #325 MandyManners

Hi Mandy :)

I hope the kiddo had a good 4th!

I have to run - nice seeing you, sweetie :)

334 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:26:13pm

re: #306 ploome hineni

how do we, most of us, come to a consensus of what is moral?

Society is the final decider. Back in biblical days it was moral to stone a woman who was unfaithful. It still is today in many Muslim countries.
The people decide inevitably unless you are under a dictatorship or theocracy.
Morals are different slightly depending on what country you go to. And even Catholics and Baptists can't agree on condoms or the death penalty.

335 Naso Tang  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:26:26pm

re: #326 Killgore Trout

Because.

Oh. Ok.

336 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:27:32pm

Saw some pretty cool "rocket's red glare and bombs bursting in air" tonight. Can hear some private explosions going on in the distance.

My poor dog "Rocky" (four and a half pounds of thunder) is about to have an embolism.

337 jorline  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:27:39pm

re: #315 theatheistjew

And before Lucy? Read this.

What's with the wiki?

338 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:27:57pm

re: #315 theatheistjew

And before Lucy? Read this.

If you mean whether or not humans may have evolved from DNA that came from organic materials in the primordial soup, that later became single celled organisms I agree.

But no where does that say that pre hominids were monkeys.

339 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:27:59pm
340 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:28:08pm

re: #311 SayeretMatkal

Oh? And why's that? Were you there when the universe started? Because, I mean SURELY you must know exactly how the distance of stars would cement our universal history theories...right?

So it's completely impossible that perhaps some intelligent being set the universe and all related material into motion with everything already occurring, thereby creating a planet that was already hit by the light of stars? Or that the light of dying stars is relatively new BECAUSE of such a creation? Am I truly ignoring the evidence? I'm not denying the vast expanse of the universe or the incredibly long distances light must travel to reach us, but I am open to the thought that perhaps it was STARTED on the same motion, not chaotic and unplanned like the "big bang" theory. So is that okay? Does considering other options make me stupid?

I suppose it's a moot point to ask- I forgot you lived back then. I guess I'll go back to my "willfully ignorant" life and let you reminisce about your childhood during the sparking of the universe.

Using your "logic" we could argue if Abe Lincoln really existed. I wasn't there, were you?

341 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:28:12pm

re: #317 DesertSage

I've been in a Catholic church exactly one time in my life, it was for a funeral. I never had to stand up and sit down so many times in my entire life. It was starting to piss me off. I've also heard that you have to eat some kind of bland cracker and say Hail Mary's.

If this is what all you former Catholics had to put up with in your formative years, I'd be seriously questioning faith and religion also.

Luckily, I never had to experience such things in my youth. So my personal quest for enlightenment has taken a bright, cheerful and pleasant path.

Good luck to all of you who are still harboring resentment towards the Catholic church, I don't envy your predicament.

Was this just out of the blue, or were you responding to something earlier in the thread?

I'm currently (and always was) Catholic, I "put up" with the Mass all during my life and now too, and I do not " seriously question faith and religion".

I have never here "bashed" what I was not brought up with and do not understand, and it would be really nice if others extended the same courtesy.

342 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:28:25pm

re: #325 MandyManners

I don't think it's true, because it's not a good definition of evolution. Due to constant inbreeding, the gene pool of many muslims is stagnant and prone to defects. That's not evolution, it's genetic suicide.

343 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:28:29pm

re: #324 lifeofthemind

I thought people were more likely to say "Now Sir, put that down and step away slowly." I can tell.

This thread is getting boring. (scatological/censored) It's time to watch a movie part of and fall asleep.

344 BigJohn  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:28:54pm

I have commented on this before, but this is How It All Started.

345 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:28:56pm

re: #336 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

My poor dog "Rocky" (four and a half pounds of thunder) is about to have an embolism.

The 4th for me has become a holiday that I cherish and console my pets.

346 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:29:06pm

re: #316 Salamantis

It is not the business of public high school science classes to instruct their students to explore religious possibilities.

Well, duh. Again, where is that currently happening?

/trust me, the ACLU wants to know, name names

347 DesertSage  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:29:27pm

Soviet Russia under Stalin was atheistic. They killed, what...20 million?

So I guess that proves that morals don't come from theism or atheism.

348 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:29:35pm

re: #91 shanec99

School should be a place to explore ideas, even the ones we disagree with, if only because it prepares us for dealing with adults in a complex society full of divergent beliefs.

Learning about various philosophies cannot be bad. Knowledge is good and should be embraced.

Sal: Not when the purpose of the IDers is not to seek the scientific truth of a matter, but to cynically use dishonest PR propaganda to brainwash impressionable youth so they can win a pupularity contest, the scientific truth of the matter be damned:

[Link: ase.tufts.edu...]

349 lifeofthemind  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:29:49pm

re: #313 guftafs

There is no contradiction, although you know that wiki is not gospel. It all keeps feeding back and forth the English thread of Hobbes and Locke and the Continental of Rousseau and then Hegel and Marx. Fascinating subject to keep delving into.

350 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:30:19pm

re: #330 jorline

A cartoon during the 60's. Space Ghost had a side-kick monkey that later evolved into the co-star of the show...just kidding, kind of fit the thread.

Okay. Now I get it. Kinda thought the avatar might be from a cartoon. Thanks. Now I can sleep at night.

351 jorline  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:30:55pm

re: #344 BigJohn

I have commented on this before, but this is How It All Started.

Been there, done that Big John...see 297

352 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:30:56pm
353 guftafs  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:30:59pm

re: #332 marjoriemoon

The short answer is No. But it would require a much longer study than anyone here could give you.

Abraham was the father of the Jews and his trials and tribulations were unique to him as was many of the early scholars during the time that God had a more "hand's on" approach. According to Jewish tradition, Issac knew he was going to be sacrificed and went willingly, btw. The entire episode teaches us that child sacrifice is an abomination, as child sacrifice was common to the people at the time. God was saying he doesn't require it.

Granted. But notice Abrahams and Isaacs reaction to God's demands. He did not defy God, as rightly he shouldn't as a good follower of God. So morality, the science of identifying good and evil and choosing accordingly, comes down to blind obedience in its Christian version. Pass.

354 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:31:33pm

re: #331 Nemesis6

Amazing documentary, addressed all the points I knew, taught me a lot more. The sad thing is, it doesn't mention how in 2007, Dover went right back to an anti-science majority in the school board. Now the same thing is happening in Louisiana, pushing another law worded exactly like the Intelligent Design movement, pushing for "criticism", etc of Evolution, and it's pushed by the Creationist mayor.

Louisiana has a mayor instead of a governor?

355 jorline  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:31:46pm

re: #350 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Okay. Now I get it. Kinda thought the avatar might be from a cartoon. Thanks. Now I can sleep at night.

Good night

356 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:32:14pm

re: #327 ploome hineni

what difference does it make?

The importance is that names and definitions have implications.

And I have chosen not to define myself as a monkey and I will not agree that my forebears are monkeys, and I believe that the things I read in school say that humans were not evolved from a monkey but they shared a common ancestor.

357 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:32:18pm

re: #314 mama winger

My point, which apparently I am making badly , is this:

The claim was made that the purpose of evolution is twofold:

1. Survival
2. Reproduction

I am saying that in present day human populations, I am not seeing either one of those instincts at operable or effective levels. Case in point:

Certain populations are purposefully not having children, and are not exhibiting any survival instincts. On the contrary, they seem to be welcoming their extinction. I give you Europe.

My conclusion would be then, that only muslims are climbing the evolutionary ladder successfully.

I don't think that if we had a population war with the Muslims that this would be good for the future of mankind either.
What we need to do is stop accommodating them. One thing we need to do right now is have total separation of church and state.
The other thing we do on Youtube (at least atheist like me) is show how their beliefs are full of hate and crap. Call it an evolutionary reaction in me.

358 solomonpanting  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:32:49pm

re: #159 theatheistjew

Most ancient societies have believed in the supernatural. They couldn't explain lightning back then.
But look at the Mayans, the ancient Greeks, the Zoroastrians. They all behaved morally. Even chimps behave morally to a great extent. They must read their bibles when the cameras are off:)

They know the difference between right and wrong, good and evil?

359 Nemesis6  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:33:25pm

re: #339 ploome hineni

I think Killgorewrote, that one can have a moral society without G-d..so I ask Killgore, how a godless society finds consensus as to what is moral

this discussion is not personal to me...I just like to understand the intellectual process of people making judgemental statements

You certainly don't get it from God. Morals are ingrained into human beings throughout their growth from Childhood to manhood, reinforced or weakened by the experiences we gain, and the emotional impact or lack thereof. The end result is mostly clear - A levelheaded individual with the problems and lapses of judgment that we all have. The old "no God, no morals" is not worth addressing; not after so many repeats. All I will say is, if you wanna get your morality from God, get that stone ready the next time your son calls you a doodiehead because you make him eat all his veggies.

360 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:33:55pm
361 Josephine  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:34:07pm

re: #268 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Josephine, he corrected himself a few posts later. He deleted "otherwise".

Oh, sorry. Thank you.

362 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:34:16pm

re: #322 shanec99

Please stop forcing Wikipedia down my throat.

The journals I read say hominid... and its the term I use for my ancestor, not monkey.

Chose what you want to call your ancestor... if you want to call your ancestor a monkey... then go ahead mine i not a monkey.

Mine is a hominid.

There are sources for what is in the wiki article. It is what science knows today.
What in the wiki article do you think is not fact?

363 Naso Tang  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:34:18pm

re: #339 ploome hineni

I think Killgorewrote, that one can have a moral society without G-d..so I ask Killgore, how a godless society finds consensus as to what is moral

this discussion is not personal to me...I just like to understand the intellectual process of people making judgemental statements

I think that that issue has been up and around quite a few times already, but as explained in #334 there are no complete absolutes, and certainly American "morals" were not the same a generation or two in the past either.

The bottom line though is whether they destroy a society or allow it to thrive, and the same applies to family groups. It's a kind of evolutionary necessity that is partly instinctive, but also not hard for most people to rationalize; it's just that some think they could never do that on their own.

364 BigJohn  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:34:46pm

re: #344 BigJohn

Oops. Sorry.

365 Nemesis6  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:35:10pm

re: #354 reine.de.tout

Mayor, governor, I'm not sure. I knew I might have been confusing the two, but I couldn't use the universal term "ruler" now could I? :D
Besides, I'm European. We can make mistakes like that! ;)

366 Naso Tang  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:35:11pm

re: #347 DesertSage

Soviet Russia under Stalin was atheistic. They killed, what...20 million?

So I guess that proves that morals don't come from theism or atheism.

How many times is it now, that you have tried that one on?

367 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:35:25pm

re: #360 ploome hineni

which are what?

read on and you will see.

368 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:35:26pm

re: #92 mean Gene

After seven years of almost total focus on the GWOT it is interesting to see how people move on.
Most of the liberals I live bear have been totally oblivious about any threat to themselves or their freedom (especially the gay ones) and have been pretty much all this time.
But Robert Spencer, for one, has kept his focus.
LGF has this tag storm so you can see that the GWOT in all it's fronts is still the major focus here.
ID has only 25 threads over the last 90 days.
It just seems like more.
And somehow I expect it will be growing in the future.
I hope I'm wrong and this remains a sort of weird sideshow.

Charles exposes idiotarians to the disinfecting sunlight of list scrutiny, be they Islamofascists, apologists for Serbian ethinc cleansing in Bosnia and Kosovo, apologists for Turkish gernocide in Armenia, Holocaust deniers, Eurofascists trying to hitch a ride on the antijihaid bandwagon, Paulian connections to them and to domestic racists, global warming pseudoscience, the messianic creepiness of the Obama cult, or the attempt by the Disco Institute to shoehorn the teaching of sectarian religious dogmas in public high school science classes.

369 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:36:07pm
370 Josephine  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:36:22pm

re: #290 theatheistjew

Thanks. I have bookmarked it and will read it tomorrow (when I'm less tired).

371 jorline  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:36:36pm

re: #364 BigJohn

Oops. Sorry.

I probably got it from you originally BigJohn...love that clip

372 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:36:38pm

re: #365 Nemesis6

Mayor, governor, I'm not sure. I knew I might have been confusing the two, but I couldn't use the universal term "ruler" now could I? :D
Besides, I'm European. We can make mistakes like that! ;)

Ah! Forgiven then! Sorry, I live in Louisiana, and sometimes we feel like other parts of the country think we're all backwoods heathen Catholic rednecks, when in fact, we're not.

373 DesertSage  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:36:57pm

re: #341 reine.de.tout

Was this just out of the blue, or were you responding to something earlier in the thread?

I'm currently (and always was) Catholic, I "put up" with the Mass all during my life and now too, and I do not " seriously question faith and religion".

I have never here "bashed" what I was not brought up with and do not understand, and it would be really nice if others extended the same courtesy.

You're absolutely right and my intention was not to bash anyone, especially people of faith.

What I have been noticing by a lot of the anti-God people here is that they use the Catholic church as reason for being so anti religious. I've been very curious about why it drove so much animosity in some people, then I recalled my one and only experience with the church.

If you've followed my comments, I have always defended the people here of faith against what I saw were a lot of unfair accusations. I've been pretty consistent.

374 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:37:50pm
375 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:38:11pm

re: #349 lifeofthemind

There is no contradiction, although you know that wiki is not gospel. It all keeps feeding back and forth the English thread of Hobbes and Locke and the Continental of Rousseau and then Hegel and Marx. Fascinating subject to keep delving into.

I prefer Calvin and Hobbes, but then, I survived a Philosophy minor.

Good night.
Don't de-evolve into scatology, like I did.
(-:

376 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:38:34pm

re: #362 theatheistjew

There are sources for what is in the wiki article. It is what science knows today.
What in the wiki article do you think is not fact?


What is in Wiki are contributions by people with a specific ideological perspective. They emphasize somethings and ignore others to make a point.

Most sophisticated people I talk to say that I should avoid wikipedia for my basic research.

Use a scientific journal if you want to convince me that humans are evolved from apes and not pre human hominids.

377 amused  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:38:44pm

Hitchens takes on the "is religion a source of morality" question in a debate here:

http://richarddawkins.net/article,1752,n,n

His argument starts at about the seven minute mark. His basic argument is that a human sacrifice (a scapegoat) so that you can escape responsibility for your actions is itself an immoral belief.

378 Naso Tang  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:38:48pm

re: #374 ploome hineni

I have no idea what you mean to say

Strange; but your honesty is commendable.

379 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:38:56pm
380 freetoken  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:39:12pm

re: #249 Honorary Yooper

Most scientists aren't sure if humans can even modify the climate.

Ummm... disagree. At least from perusing as many different climate related journals as I have found, I feel quite confident that most scientists working in climatology would agree that humans can change Earth's climate.

But Summer is correct... throwing up climate change or any other politicized issue is just a way of diverting the discussion away from the topic at hand, which is the promotion of a religious doctrine under the guise of science as a means of subverting public education.

381 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:39:43pm

re: #374 ploome hineni

I'll say it again, pre human hominid, not monkey.

382 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:40:08pm

Good night, all.

transient, I'm off to have that stiff drink for you.

/keeping a commitment of honor ... heh

383 lifeofthemind  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:40:27pm

re: #372 reine.de.tout

Ah! Forgiven then! Sorry, I live in Louisiana, and sometimes we feel like other parts of the country think we're all backwoods heathen Catholic rednecks, when in fact, we're not.

Drum roll. You're not? Which part was wrong? *smiles

384 DesertSage  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:40:48pm

re: #366 Naso Tang

How many times is it now, that you have tried that one on?

I don't know, 3-4?
Am I not supposed to use it anymore?
:')

385 mean Gene  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:40:57pm

re: #231 Ford_Prefect

I thought I was seeing that a few days ago.
The morning dove was walking in circles, putting one wing down seemingly for balance and staying on the ground.
It turned out it had been eating our California Poppy's seeds all day!
It was stoned!
We've named it ''Dopey."

386 Karridine  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:41:14pm

re: #319 lifeofthemind

"He hath but to deliver this clear message. Whoso desireth, let him turn aside, and whoso desireth, let him choose the path to his Lord."

NO coercion. Period.

You have a wonderful vision for Iran (and all other nations, by extension) Life of, and free people everywhere cheer this.

Its the fear-driven, ignorant among the rest of us, that work AGAINST it!

387 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:41:18pm
388 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:41:52pm

re: #339 ploome hineni

I know you're trying to convince me that your god will make me morally superior but but need to look at thins from the other side. When I see arguments like that it makes me wonder is supernatural retribution the only thing keeping you from being a tax cheating gay serial killer? Some people do need the fear of supernatural retribution to be good people and others don't. Who's morally superior in that scenario? The person who is good and honest because it's right or the person who is good and honest out of fear?

389 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:41:53pm

re: #373 DesertSage

You're absolutely right and my intention was not to bash anyone, especially people of faith.

What I have been noticing by a lot of the anti-God people here is that they use the Catholic church as reason for being so anti religious. I've been very curious about why it drove so much animosity in some people, then I recalled my one and only experience with the church.

If you've followed my comments, I have always defended the people here of faith
against what I saw were a lot of unfair accusations. I've been pretty consistent.

Yes, you have, which is why I was surprised to see your comment about the Catholic church.

My father was not Catholic, but he married a Catholic and all his children were raised Catholic, and yet . . . he said awful things about Catholics, ideas left over, I think, from his own upbringing. I don't know why Catholicism, of all the Christian faiths, seems to be on everybody's bad side, but it does seem to bring out negative feelings in a lot of folks.

390 Naso Tang  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:42:18pm

re: #384 DesertSage

I don't know, 3-4?
Am I not supposed to use it anymore?
:')

I suppose the principle of repeating a point is fair enough. Charles does it all the time.

;)

391 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:42:28pm

re: #352 ploome hineni

in a GODLESS SOCIETY, no Bible, koran nothing

what is the basis for deciding one behavior is moral, and another is not

How do chimps decide what is right and wrong? Innately we feel good when we do good things and feel bad when we do bad things, unless we are sociopathic, but those people tend not to procreate very well and pass along their genes because they don't care for children and are usually shunned by society including available mates.
Those in Communist Russia after the bad stuff happened still behaved in moral ways.
Why didn't they just blow everything up? Because survival is innate in us.

392 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:42:35pm
393 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:42:54pm

re: #103 guftafs

Every major scientific discovery dealt crushing blows to the basis of religious belief: Scientific explanations based on observations ultimately remove the need for religious belief. If religionists were to succeed in countering this long-term trend, they would open the way for a re-surgence of religion.

Sal: Only by reversing the trend of us learning and knowing more could they do this; knowledge, and all the media in which it was recorded, and all the people who knew it, and all the technology constructed by means of it, would have to be destroyed, just as in Ayn Rand's book Anthem electric lighting was destroyed and the society returned to candles. Religion can only re-emerge as an explanation for something once its scientific explanation, and all who know of it, are expunged. That is, ultimately, the Disco Institute's goal with regard to evolutionary theory. First demonize, then destroy.

394 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:43:05pm

1812 Overture is playing right now at the Capitol Mall. Calm down for a minute...Hell yeah...Howitzers going off!

395 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:43:41pm
396 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:43:52pm

re: #383 lifeofthemind

Drum roll. You're not? Which part was wrong? *smiles

lol. The Catholic part is the only correct part.

397 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:43:57pm

re: #392 ploome hineni

I just think you all resemble blind people trying to describe an elephant


So now your senses are superior as well? Wow, you must be fantastic.

398 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:44:13pm

re: #358 solomonpanting

They know the difference between right and wrong, good and evil?

Yes they do. Maybe not evil. It depends on how you define evil.

399 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:44:14pm

Out of many, one.

400 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:45:04pm
401 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:46:06pm

re: #387 ploome hineni

maybe you don't understand my question

what difference does it make?

a rose by any other name


In my book a pre hominid is not a monkey... it is a pre human hominid. A different being.

Different brain capacity, different ability to learn, different ability to learn speech.

Created different dwellings, farmed and domesticated annimals.

Just different.

402 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:46:13pm
403 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:46:26pm

re: #109 Ojoe

Well ID is kind of a hybrid of philosophical/religious considerations springing from observations of nature.

It is not strictly science

It needs a bigger 'box'.

Sal: No valid scientific observation has yet been presented that would lead opne to embrace the ID religious doctrine.

404 guftafs  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:46:54pm

re: #393 Salamantis

Sal: Only by reversing the trend of us learning and knowing more could they do this; knowledge, and all the media in which it was recorded, and all the people who knew it, and all the technology constructed by means of it, would have to be destroyed, just as in Ayn Rand's book Anthem electric lighting was destroyed and the society returned to candles. Religion can only re-emerge as an explanation for something once its scientific explanation, and all who know of it, are expunged. That is, ultimately, the Disco Institute's goal with regard to evolutionary theory. First demonize, then destroy.

From their point of view they are absolutely right to target education. The churning out of generations of minds formed to doubt science would have a significant impact once these children have grown up.

405 Phocid  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:48:06pm

re: #71 shanec99

Were they being indoctrinated or were they being asked to explore other possibilities?

The "other possibilities" you are referring to are religion, not science.

406 shiplord kirel  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:48:10pm

This is the current, most highly evolved version of a warning I issued a couple of years ago on several message boards, including LGF:

Monkey uprising overruns Bangladeshi town.
Monkeys terrorize Indian government.
Monkeys invade Indian embassy in Nepal. (An alliance with Maoist rebels?)

There is mounting evidence that monkeys and their relatives are plotting to overthrow human civilization, almost certainly in collusion with the great apes. That's right, you think they are cute hairy little bare-ass creatures, but don't let the sly beasts fool you!

At some point in the year 2008, the Moon will align with (something or other) and that will cause a great awakening in the conciousness of every ape, monkey, and baboon... spider monkeys and lemurs, too. Then the little monsters are going to rip and sack their way through the unsuspecting nations of the Earth.

Many leading humans have been aware of this simian conspiracy for some time. Why do you think experienced ape-fighter Charlton Heston was named to lead the NRA a few years ago? Heston is gone now, but others have taken his place in preparing our resistance. Stock up on guns, ammo, and bananas!

The conspiracy seems concentrated in the Indian subcontinent. An attempt to gain control of Indian nuclear weapons at an early stage? Can faithful Lizardoids be sure that all of our posters are loyal humans? Couldn't one or more of them be the proverbial monkey pecking at a keyboard, sent here to spy out the scientifically concious resistance?

(Yes, I know that apes are not monkeys, but the great apes have long been suspected of masterminding the anti-human conspiracy.)

I will continue to raise the alarm about this gorilla warfare conspiracy, despite protests and threats from simian-citizens pressure groups and their lawyers and media dupes.

407 Naso Tang  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:48:33pm

re: #402 ploome hineni

#397 Killgore Trout

and totally convinced about things that are impossible to know for sure

I can't think of a more "totally convinced" position than to say that one knows what is impossible to know. You really should check yourself in the mirror before starting to type.

408 Kulhwch  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:48:42pm
re: #153 Honorary Yooper
re: #138 Killgore Trout

It's a common misconception that religion is required for morality.

Very true, and the inverse works as well. The jihadis are a case in point of people having religion without morality.

Sorry, gotta play Devil's Advocate here.  The Jihadis are not bereft of morality, they subscribe to a different morality.  And though I can't stand their morality, much as you can't either, I still have to say that they still have one.

It is a common mistake born of fundamentalism to presupposed that because someone lacks something in the flavor that you prefer, that they don't have that thing at all.  You like barbeque-flavored potato chips and they like onion-flavored potato chips.  If you believe that only barbeque-flavored potato chips exist, then per your flawed reasoning they have no potato chips at all.  Soon 'good samaritans' start going door to door, trying to force barbeque-flavored potato chips on picnics they weren't invited to.  Sometimes, if they're uppity, they get killed, those people at the wrong picnic.

We're all going to have to understand this in our battle with the islamofascists.  It is very much their modus operandi as well.  We can't succumb to fundamentalism lest we, as Pogo once pointed out, become our own enemy.  I'm not saying we have to accept their fundamentalism, but we do have to recognize it for what it is, and ours for what it can be as well.

}:)     [Nothing personal against you, just saying, you know?]

409 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:48:42pm

re: #393 Salamantis

Only by reversing the trend of us learning and knowing more could they do this; knowledge, and all the media in which it was recorded, and all the people who knew it, and all the technology constructed by means of it, would have to be destroyed, just as in Ayn Rand's book Anthem electric lighting was destroyed and the society returned to candles. Religion can only re-emerge as an explanation for something once its scientific explanation, and all who know of it, are expunged. That is, ultimately, the Disco Institute's goal with regard to evolutionary theory. First demonize, then destroy.

/ooh, scary

410 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:48:45pm

I give up. Happy Independence Day!

411 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:48:56pm

re: #395 ploome hineni

relax

Jews get it worse

{touts}

we loves ya~

Yes, I know.

But goodness, I'm not just Catholic; I'm a backwoods heathen redneck Catholic from Louisiana! Lowest of the low . . .

412 swamprat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:49:25pm

re: #392 ploome hineni

I am not trying to convince anything

I just think you all resemble blind people trying to describe an elephant


John Godfrey Saxe's ( 1816-1887) version of the famous Indian legend,

It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind.

The First approach'd the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
"God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!"

The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried, -"Ho! what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me 'tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!"

The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a snake!"

The Fourth reached out his eager hand,
And felt about the knee.
"What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain," quoth he,
"'Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!"

The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: "E'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can,
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!"

The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Then, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a rope!"

And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!

MORAL.

So oft in theologic wars,
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!

413 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:49:40pm
414 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:50:01pm
415 FreedomNeocon  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:50:07pm

One of Charles more useless obsessions...

416 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:50:19pm

re: #405 Phocid

The "other possibilities" you are referring to are religion, not science.


I asked a question... please do not infer anything into what I was asking.

417 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:50:54pm
418 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:51:27pm

re: #391 theatheistjew

How do chimps decide what is right and wrong? Innately we feel good when we do good things and feel bad when we do bad things, unless we are sociopathic, but those people tend not to procreate very well and pass along their genes because they don't care for children and are usually shunned by society including available mates.
Those in Communist Russia after the bad stuff happened still behaved in moral ways.
Why didn't they just blow everything up? Because survival is innate in us.

I think you're correct that humans do feel good when we do good things, and bad when we do bad things.

But I'm not sure we're born that way. Children have to be taught what the "good" or right thing is. How is the "good" or "right" things decided?

419 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:51:31pm

Goodnight all... I need the beauty sleep.

420 Naso Tang  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:51:36pm

re: #413 ploome hineni

brush up on your comprehension skills,
profresser

Huh?

How about the list of impossibles please? Have you posted it on Wikipedia yet?

421 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:51:41pm
422 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:51:58pm

re: #376 shanec99

What is in Wiki are contributions by people with a specific ideological perspective. They emphasize somethings and ignore others to make a point.

Most sophisticated people I talk to say that I should avoid wikipedia for my basic research.

Use a scientific journal if you want to convince me that humans are evolved from apes and not pre human hominids.

I'm using Wiki again, but it is common knowledge amongst the scientific community that humans and apes evolved from this guy.
You can choose not to call him a monkey. But he sure does look like one.

I don't see why Wiki can't be used for basic research. If there was a different theory out there, someone would source it and show it in the article in this case.

423 amused  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:52:12pm

This is from the Texas Republican Party platform:

Theories of Origin – We support the objective teaching and equal treatment of scientific strengths and weaknesses of scientific theories, including Intelligent Design. We believe theories of life origins and environmental theories should be taught as scientific theory not scientific law; that social studies and other curriculum should not be based on any one theory.


http://www.texasgop.org/site/DocServer/Platform_Up dated.pdf?docID=2001

It's not quite theocracy, but is dangerously close.

424 jaunte  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:52:35pm

The story of Tammy Kitzmiller's hate mail was interesting. Not especially moral to deliver death threats.

425 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:52:41pm

Finished watching the video, excellent.

/and people bitch about lawyers

426 Buster Bunny  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:53:03pm

re: #406 shiplord kirel

Considering my first post in this subject was monkey inspired .. to ye i sayeth ..

Thank you.

427 jorline  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:53:09pm

re: #406 shiplord kirel

up-ding for that post kirel

428 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:53:24pm

re: #117 DesertSage

That's what I'd like to know. Is he saying that one cannot have deeply held religious beliefs and believe in science?

Is he saying that science is now a province of atheism? That would be a big surprise to a lot of darn good scientists.

Sal: One does not 'believe' in science; one has evidence-supported knowledge of scientific assertions. It is religious contentions that one cannot know but must believe in, for articles of faith, to avoid being assertions of knowledge, require an absence of empirical evidence.

Science tends to make it clear to people that religious contentions cannot be known one way or the other; they are matters of faith. The difference between knowledge and belief is the presence or absence of empirical evidence.

429 Karridine  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:53:55pm

"Faith and Reason should complement each other..."

from the Video

430 Cartman  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:54:37pm

I find evangelical atheism rather annoying. But that's just me...

431 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:55:15pm
432 Naso Tang  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:55:22pm

re: #429 Karridine

"Faith and Reason should complement each other..."

from the Video

Is that the politically correct way to say "should respect each other"?

433 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:55:35pm

re: #415 FreedomNeocon

I find this "obsession" very useful.
/Bite me

434 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:55:50pm
435 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:56:02pm

re: #328 Naso Tang

If that is a serious question in your mind, then by all means just do as you are told, and you may be OK.

Don't mess with my ploome. Got it?

436 boofar  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:56:13pm

Yeh, Charles makes a good point when it comes to creationism and those who try to push it.

437 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:56:41pm
438 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:56:47pm

re: #118 shanec99

Perhaps. It is one of these religious ideas that help people to erect a bridge between what their core religious beliefs are, and what the secular world tells them every day.

It is only dangerous if we allow its proponents to make a claim about it that it cannot possibly deliver.

It is not science and should not be allowed to masquerade as such, but people should be allowed to explore it.

Sal: Sure, let people explore ID - in church, or theology class (it's theology, not philosophy). But not in public high school science class. It is not scientifically testable. There is not a single iota of empirical evidence to support it.

439 Naso Tang  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:56:52pm

re: #435 MandyManners

Don't mess with my ploome. Got it?

Ok, OK, it's all yours. Enjoy.

440 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:57:02pm

re: #422 theatheistjew

Ok call a jackass a thoroughbred if you chose to. Then enter the jackass into the Kentucky Derby and tell me what happens.

Brecause one annimal resembles another does not mean they are the same.

They have different characteristics that go well beyond simple physical resemblance.

Again. My ancestors were not monkeys... if you insist that yours were... then good for you... and at this point I am begining to believe that your ancestors may have been monkeys, you have been that convincing.

But mine were not... they were hominids, not monkeys.

441 opnion  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:57:05pm

I was watching a baseball game with an unfortunate outcome from my perspective, so I am late to the party.
This point may have already been made. I understand that ID & Creationism , should be confined to religion or philosophy class ,not mixed in with science. They are matters of faith . If they were subject to imperical evidence like evo;ution, by definition they would not be faith
But here is my problem , as the religion of peace demands more & more defernce, they are not treated with ridicule or pushed back.
Seems like it is constant accomodation. At least we should be consistent.

442 Nemesis6  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:57:17pm

re: #369 ploome hineni

Well we're hardly savages today. We're free individuals, and the world is what we make of it. Some say man is inherently good, but all he is inherently is born free -- The world is what we make it, morality is what we make it, love is what we make it. Drawing on the last one, love doesn't automatically equal marriage, morality doesn't necessarily involve never being egotistical, and lastly, the world won't be bad just because we don't believe in God. In Scandinavia where I live, we are largely a secular society, bordering on largely Atheist.

You know you can't throw that boomerang without it coming right back at you -- Albert Fish for example. You see, he believed Angels would stop him from doing the terrible things he did if God was opposed to it. And just like that, I'm back at my previous point: Anything can be molded, changed, stretched into what you want them to be. Some Atheists are just atheists and don't give it much thought, for some that atheism comes as a direct result of what they have or haven't experienced.

My point is, it's all up to the individual, and claiming God can make a difference is right -- But only in the sense that you allow him.]

How's that? :)

443 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:57:30pm

re: #418 reine.de.tout

I think you're correct that humans do feel good when we do good things, and bad when we do bad things.

But I'm not sure we're born that way. Children have to be taught what the "good" or right thing is. How is the "good" or "right" things decided?

I think it is innate. And some is cultural. Again, look at the animal kingdom, a mother croc doesn't learn not to eat her offspring but carry them to and from water to land.
A baby smiles when a grownup smiles. The baby doesn't know it is smiling.

444 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:57:31pm

re: #434 ploome hineni

Last time I mentioned "where" I had 50 something negative ratings (one plus) and a deletion in the morning. I've learned my lesson.

445 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:57:34pm

re: #433 Killgore Trout

I find this "obsession" very useful.
/Bite me


re: #434 ploome hineni

where?

As Goddess of the Classroom might say - DECORUM, please, ladies and gents, this is not that kind of place.

446 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:58:20pm

re: #428 Salamantis

You're a militant atheist, right?

/you know, so we know what we're dealing with

447 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:58:23pm

re: #415 FreedomNeocon

One of Charles more useless obsessions...

Yeah, well, I'm sure your furniture sucks, too.

448 FinnAgain  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:59:00pm

This is weird, I wasn't looking for someone to directly address me in a thread in which I wasn't posting yet. But okay, since I seem to have been called out by name...

re: #237 swamprat

FinnAgain:, I was correct about seemingly convergent DNA.

You weren't correct as "convergent DNA" is, in the context you're using it, gibberish.

Strands of DNA were not merged, chromosomes were. There's a difference.
It shows, however, no "convergence" any more than gluing two boards of wood together shows "wood convergence".

It shows no "convergence". It shows that our ancestors had 24 pairs of chromosomes and one of those chromosomes fused with another via a mutation. "Convergent DNA" would be when the genome of two species evolved towards each other, as physical traits do in "convergent evolution".

That the fusion didn't perfectly preserve all of the structure of both chromosomes is not only unremarkable, it doesn't have to be "ignored", studiously or otherwise.

At minute 48.10, I leaned that "theories have more weight" than facts.

That is a disingenuous gloss.
A theory is based on facts and builds on them, they never said that theories have more weight, they said that facts are minutiae and theories incorporate those facts and can be refined and refuted.

You have completely changed what was actually said with an inaccurate paraphrase.


The best part is when a chromosome is predicted that will have two centromeres with a endomere in the center. Somehow they claim "victory!", while totally ignoring the missing centromere.

This is just getting silly now.
We found exactly what would be predicted. Two centromeres on a single chromosome while normal single chromosomes have only one, showing that two fused. Telemores on both the ends and in the middle, showing that two chromosomes fused.

You have made the fundamental mistake that I expect all of my ninth graders to recognize and avoid: you have mistaken infotainment for a primary source. News, even quality news like Nova, serves to get ratings. When they report on science, they paraphrase. If you want to learn, you go to the source.

Like:


Origin of human chromosome 2: an ancestral telomere-telomere fusion:
[...]
We have identified two allelic genomic cosmids from human chromosome 2, c8.1 and c29B, each containing two inverted arrays of the vertebrate telomeric repeat in a head-to-head arrangement, 5'(TTAGGG)n-(CCCTAA)m3'. Sequences flanking this telomeric repeat are characteristic of present-day human pretelomeres. BAL-31 nuclease experiments with yeast artificial chromosome clones of human telomeres and fluorescence in situ hybridization reveal that sequences flanking these inverted repeats hybridize both to band 2q13 and to different, but overlapping, subsets of human chromosome ends. We conclude that the locus cloned in cosmids c8.1 and c29B is the relic of an ancient telomere-telomere fusion and marks the point at which two ancestral ape chromosomes fused to give rise to human chromosome 2.

From here.
You have to do the research to find out what they're talking about. Looking at the molecular evidence it's clear that your argument about a "missing" telomere is absurd.
You have one telomere, flanked by pretelomeres, that is the result of the fusion of two separate telomeres.


And I don't recall merging DNA as part of the Evolution Science.

It's a part of molecular biology. Which is related to but not identical to evolutionary mechanics.


Could this be a hybrid?

When species hybridize we don't expect to see their chromosomes fuse via transcription/replication errors, which is apparently what happened somewhere along our evolutionary lineage.

449 marjoriemoon  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:59:12pm

re: #353 guftafs

Granted. But notice Abrahams and Isaacs reaction to God's demands. He did not defy God, as rightly he shouldn't as a good follower of God. So morality, the science of identifying good and evil and choosing accordingly, comes down to blind obedience in its Christian version. Pass.

I can't speak to Christianity... I'm Jewish heh

But it's not blind obedience for nothing. God required the devotion of Abraham (as he would of us) so we would follow the commandments even if the outcome would seem dreadful. Sometimes you have to sacrifice something or someone of great importance to you for the greater good or higher ideal. I think of the families who sacrifice their children to our military to fight for our country. It's really the same thing.

450 kafir  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:59:30pm

re: #91 shanec99

School should be a place to explore ideas, even the ones we disagree with,

Teaching religion in a science class is simply wrong. Pretending that the religious view is science is wrong. Pretending that there are conflicts in the understanding of the science is wrong. Pretending that belief systems are equivalent to science is wrong.

Not just wrong. It is immoral. It does our children a disservice. It overtly lies to the vulnerable. It attempts to impose a specific world view on an impressionable youngster.

Compare philosophical world views in a a philosophy class, where they make sense to be compared.


if only because it prepares us for dealing with adults in a complex society full of divergent beliefs.

Science is, by definition, not a belief system. It is testable, it is falsifiable. A belief system is not open to being questioned or tested. A belief system is not open to being falsified. A belief system is not open to discussion. It is what you believe.

Evolution is not a belief system. It is one of several theories that make up the basis of genetics and modern biology. If a better theory comes along, does a better job of explaining things, a better job of supporting observation and experiment, it will supplant the existing theories.

The above paragraph is simply not possible to do with a belief system such as ID. As the above paragraph is the very definition of a science, it stands to reason that ID cannot be a science, as it has none of the hallmarks of a science. It does have the hallmarks of a religious belief system.


Learning about various philosophies cannot be bad. Knowledge is good and should be embraced.

This is why America, this land that I love and that I fight for, has declined. Because we allow fluffy-headed feel good policies to govern where a strong hand saying genug was the correct choice.

ID is dead. It is not now, nor has it ever been, a science. It has no business being taught as one.

Feel free to explore it though, in philosophy or comparative religious class, where it belongs. Do not impose it on my kids, or on my educational system.

Genug already. What meshugenah.

451 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:59:33pm

re: #122 yehoshua

My favorite Jefferson quote:

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it’s natural manure."

It takes a man possessed of that rare combination of deep emotion, sharp intellect, and an agricultural bent to make such a statement.

Sal: Here are a whole lot of other Thomas Jefferson quotes:

[Link: www.nobeliefs.com...]

452 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:59:55pm

re: #411 reine.de.tout

Yes, I know.

But goodness, I'm not just Catholic; I'm a backwoods heathen redneck Catholic from Louisiana! Lowest of the low . . .

LOL. Gee, couldn't tell with the French nic. ;-)

Creole or Cajun?

453 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:00:25pm
454 opnion  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:00:35pm

re: #411 reine.de.tout

Yes, I know.

But goodness, I'm not just Catholic; I'm a backwoods heathen redneck Catholic from Louisiana! Lowest of the low . . .


Y'all must be Cajun. I guran dam tee?

455 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:00:45pm
456 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:00:52pm

re: #437 ploome hineni

LOL

/he has reading comprehension problems

Except when it comes to his lower G.I. tract.

457 mattm  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:01:35pm

I just watched the Boston Pops 4th Celebration. They said 500K in attendance in the official areas. The celebration was amazing.

It reminded me of the Grinch who stole Christmas. The Grinch, MSM/democrats, tried to tell us that we are awful, etc, etc, but the Whos in Whoville did not fall for it.

458 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:01:42pm

re: #439 Naso Tang

Ok, OK, it's all yours. Enjoy.

Go piss up a rope.

459 jorline  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:01:57pm

re: #422 theatheistjew

I'm using Wiki again, but it is common knowledge amongst the scientific community that humans and apes evolved from this guy.
You can choose not to call him a monkey. But he sure does look like one.

I don't see why Wiki can't be used for basic research. If there was a different theory out there, someone would source it and show it in the article in this case.

Reference it all you want, but keep it quiet.
Both of my children will receive an F on any paper where they list wiki as a reference.
Because of the editing ease at wiki find another link to support your theory.

460 marjoriemoon  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:02:25pm

re: #406 shiplord kirel

You've been watching reruns of the Planet of the Apes, haven't you.

462 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:02:51pm

re: #438 Salamantis

But not in public high school science class. It is not scientifically testable. There is not a single iota of empirical evidence to support it.

You seem to think ID/Creationism is being officially taught in some public school somewhere.

/it's not, so relax, lawyers nationwide are holding vigil

463 Phocid  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:03:15pm

re: #416 shanec99

I asked a question... please do not infer anything into what I was asking.

I was not inferring. I was explaining that religion has no business in a science class.

464 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:03:20pm

re: #450 kafir

I agree ID should not be taught as science, it is a philosophy, and it is useful to explore different philosophies.

Knowledge is never wasted. Be honest with youngsters, tell them the truth and expose them to a variety of ideas. The will be better for it.

465 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:03:55pm
466 Kulhwch  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:04:11pm

re: #167 MacGregor

What if the need to believe in something greater is ingrained as an evolved survival trait into our dna? Would it be unnatural to squelch such a trait? /just askin'

Your question is based on the false premise that someone or something is trying to limit religious belief.  That has not been evidenced in any of these threads yet.  What IS being attempted is to keep science and faith separate in their avenues of learning and expression.  Neither is the other, they should never be confused for each other.

}:)     [I'd also like to see how you'd test your hypothesis ... ]

467 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:04:51pm

re: #463 Phocid

I agree with you on that point.

468 freetoken  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:05:24pm

re: #423 amused

A while back I posted links to youtube vids of selections from the Republican primary debates... showing the "evolution" question.

This is the issue (which you illustrated well): no matter what the judicial system rules, the ID movement will continue to use/abuse the Republican party to try and get their agenda across. This ends up poisoning the well for the Republican party.

As you have pointed out, the 2006 Texas Republican party platform is promoting unconstitutional actions on the part of elected officials.

469 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:05:25pm
470 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:05:50pm

re: #126 tunnelrat

You know... ID may seem like a quaint, old fashioned concept which no longer holds up in the face of science, but nobody can prove evoloution either. To many people the concept of our existence being a product of chance is hard to believe too. Sorry folks, but I just do not believe that everything we see just "happened" or that we evolved from monkeys. To me that is ridiculous!

Sal: The thousands of identical artifactual retroviral sequences found in identical locations in the DNA of humans and our closest primate relatives prives beyond a statistical doubt that we share common ancestors. This fact will not yield to your disbelief. And evolution is not about chance; the mutations occur by chance, but the natural selection of the environment is not random.

Evolution is a fact. It happens, and has happened since life was confronted with environments in which it could either perish or thrive. The discussions are around the edges. Mutation, natural selection, and genetic inheritance via DNA are beyond rational doubt.

471 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:05:53pm

re: #452 Honorary Yooper

LOL. Gee, couldn't tell with the French nic. ;-)

Creole or Cajun?

I don't believe I'm either one, actually, although one never really knows.

472 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:08:14pm

re: #440 shanec99

But mine were not... they were hominids, not monkeys.

Hominids descended from Great Apes.

/you should check out genetics, they've made some strides recently, like mapping the human genome

473 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:08:18pm

re: #471 reine.de.tout

I don't believe I'm either one, actually, although one never really knows.

Heh. :-)

My father spent his jr. high and high school years in Algiers, and we spent 2 years in Baton Rouge when I was very little, so I'm familiar with Louisiana.

474 Naso Tang  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:08:35pm

re: #458 MandyManners

Go piss up a rope.

Not nice, but I can see why you and ploome like to hang out. I can see why ploome is in this thread, it's a common trait, but I really haven't seen any reason why you do?

475 Josephine  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:08:39pm

re: #406 shiplord kirel

No, no the Year of the Monkey was 2004. This is the Year of the Rat.

476 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:08:52pm
477 opnion  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:09:22pm

re: #472 Killian Bundy

Hominids descended from Great Apes.

/you should check out genetics, they've made some strides recently, like mapping the human genome

Hey are you sure that they were great? Maybe just pretty good.

478 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:09:40pm

re: #443 theatheistjew

I think it is innate. And some is cultural. Again, look at the animal kingdom, a mother croc doesn't learn not to eat her offspring but carry them to and from water to land.
A baby smiles when a grownup smiles. The baby doesn't know it is smiling.

A baby smiles, yes.

But give a baby a year or two, and he/she becomes an absolute heathen, or what I used to call my daughter, the "devil child from hell". The kid must be taught what is the right thing to do, particularlay when the right thing to do isn't the most convenient thing or the most personally joyful thing to do at the time it needs to be done.

479 Karridine  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:09:45pm

re: #432 Naso Tang

No.

Its a statement of respect for faith, in its place
and reason, in its logical place.

Its hardly politically correct, Naso.

480 guftafs  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:10:02pm

re: #449 marjoriemoon

I can't speak to Christianity... I'm Jewish heh

But it's not blind obedience for nothing. God required the devotion of Abraham (as he would of us) so we would follow the commandments even if the outcome would seem dreadful. Sometimes you have to sacrifice something or someone of great importance to you for the greater good or higher ideal. I think of the families who sacrifice their children to our military to fight for our country. It's really the same thing.

It's not a blind sacrifice to fight in order to prevent a repeat of 9/11.

Unfortunately, in the case of God precious reasons are given. The answer as to why "Thou shalt not kill" is, "because God says so". What if he would have said "Thou shalt kill"? Any other answer than "Because God says so" , "God is the source of good and of morality", moves us away from a religiously-based morality. Luckily.

481 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:10:04pm
482 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:10:04pm

re: #469 ploome hineni

and some kids never make it to college, does that mean we should deny them a chance to explore other ideas?

483 kafir  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:10:05pm

re: #462 Killian Bundy

FWIW I spent the first decade and a half of my professional scientific career occasionally debating these folks. We must be vigilant. They are welcome to teach their religious beliefs to their kids as religion, as I am welcome to do so with mine. But they are not welcome to attempt to redefine science based upon their beliefs.

I have seen this at my kids school where an administrator told us privately that they teach about origins, noting that evolution was just a theory ... wink wink nudge nudge.

Too bad they are not aware of these other theories that we know to be wrong, yet are taught to school kids. Newton's "law" of gravitation is a prime example. It is known to be false, known to be incorrect, and a more correct theory is known.

Yet you don't hear the creationist and IDers yelling about this now, do you ...

We keep a very close eye on this administrator now, and they know it. So far, not a peep on their belief system infiltrating the science class.

484 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:10:10pm

re: #131 dm60462

Glaring error on the NOVA piece - the statement that there is a rift between science and Scripture. As a devout Catholic and a scientist, I see no conflict between the two. While God clearly designed the Universe, He also gave us the intelligence to understand the universe through science. Both the Creation and the ability to understand it through science are His gifts.

Sal: It is possible to believe either in the presence or the absence of a creating God in the context of evolutionary theory. Evolutionary theory neither proves nor disproves the existence of any creating deity; it simply renders the appeal to such a deity unnecessary to explain the diversity of life, and leaves it up to the individual what to and not to believe on the issue.

485 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:10:24pm

re: #465 ploome hineni

take a baby, an do not teach it manners

see how innately good it is

every try and teach a kid to share?

Human nature never ceases to amaze me since I had The Kid. Loving and giving, excluding and taking.

486 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:10:53pm

re: #453 ploome hineni

/I was just being obnoxious


So was I. Heh.

487 kafir  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:11:13pm

re: #464 shanec99

I agree it is a philosophy, and it should be taught as such. I think it is important for youngsters to hear about various creation myths and inquire from their parents as to what they believe and why.

488 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:11:37pm

re: #472 Killian Bundy

nope... great apes and human evolved from a common ancestor... humans did not evolve from apes... find me a document that says otherwise.

489 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:11:39pm

re: #473 Honorary Yooper

Heh. :-)

My father spent his jr. high and high school years in Algiers, and we spent 2 years in Baton Rouge when I was very little, so I'm familiar with Louisiana.

I live in Baton Rouge! You probably don't remember much, and it has probably changed significantly. Algiers . . . whoosh. Another planet.

490 opnion  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:11:45pm

re: #478 reine.de.tout

A baby smiles, yes.

But give a baby a year or two, and he/she becomes an absolute heathen, or what I used to call my daughter, the "devil child from hell". The kid must be taught what is the right thing to do, particularlay when the right thing to do isn't the most convenient thing or the most personally joyful thing to do at the time it needs to be done.


Lord of the flies. Socialization is taught

491 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:11:54pm

re: #465 ploome hineni

take a baby, an do not teach it manners

see how innately good it is

every try and teach a kid to share?

How do you explain crocodiles and their babies?

492 Naso Tang  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:12:18pm

re: #479 Karridine

No.

Its a statement of respect for faith, in its place
and reason, in its logical place.

Its hardly politically correct, Naso.

Which is what I said, which is what I think is the better way to say it.

Got a problem?

493 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:12:28pm

re: #474 Naso Tang

Not nice, but I can see why you and ploome like to hang out. I can see why ploome is in this thread, it's a common trait, but I really haven't seen any reason why you do?

I'm just a little too tired to suss out whatever insult you're trying to make. I'm sure it's oozing nuance.

494 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:12:36pm
495 jorline  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:12:47pm

I'm evolving while I sit here...eating a big bowl of Tom & Jerry's Chubby/Hubby. Wife is not amused...lol

496 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:13:05pm

re: #481 ploome hineni

what are you saying?

can anyone understand what you are trying to say?

I can't.

497 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:13:13pm

re: #134 shanec99

Interesting point of view, but I beg to differ.

Religion teaches people how to get along.

It provides a grounding in morality and gives a cohesion necessary for the functioning of a modern complex society.

A society without laws based in religious teaching would be a dangerous place to live in because it would not recognize the principle of right and wrong so frequently articulated in the Scriptures.

Sal: Religious systems themselves derived their ethical precepts from either prior religious systems or the ambient sociocultural norms. They did not impose such precepts upon us; rather they derived them from us.

498 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:13:16pm

re: #489 reine.de.tout

I live in Baton Rouge! You probably don't remember much, and it has probably changed significantly. Algiers . . . whoosh. Another planet.

I remember Cortana, and the apartment over on the far east side. I'm sure it's quite a bit bigger too now.

499 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:13:30pm

re: #478 reine.de.tout

A baby smiles, yes.

But give a baby a year or two, and he/she becomes an absolute heathen, or what I used to call my daughter, the "devil child from hell". The kid must be taught what is the right thing to do, particularlay when the right thing to do isn't the most convenient thing or the most personally joyful thing to do at the time it needs to be done.

We are born Id.

500 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:13:35pm

re: #487 kafir

I agree it is a philosophy, and it should be taught as such. I think it is important for youngsters to hear about various creation myths and inquire from their parents as to what they believe and why.

From thier parents and any other reliable source of information.

Learing is never wasted.

501 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:13:38pm
502 Phocid  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:13:39pm

ID or Creationism is a lazy shortcut whenever there appears something in nature that we don't understand. I suppose before the discovery of electricity they'd have to say that God was throwing thunderbolts. Either everything is ordained and caused by God or nothing is. You can't have a halfway God. If man had remained in a state where everything was the work of a deity (or deities) then civilization would have stopped there. We'd have no science, no medicine, no technology. We see the evil influence of that kind of thinking in the Muslim countries where everything happens inshallah.

And why do those believers continue to assert an absurdity when the simple solution is merely to accept the perfectly reasonable proposition that God works through evolution?

503 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:14:11pm
504 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:14:13pm

re: #373 DesertSage

I do hope you realize that there is a growing trend of people here who want to use their definition of Christianity to belittle or insult other Christians because we don't subscribe to their flavor of Christianity. You can even see this in the Nova video.

505 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:16:37pm
506 Naso Tang  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:17:15pm

re: #481 ploome hineni

what are you saying?

can anyone understand what you are trying to say?

I notice that you don't seem to remember more than one or two posts back. Is it ADD, or just a case of chronic smartass?

507 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:17:18pm
508 Kulhwch  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:17:32pm

re: #187 pre-Boomer Marine brat

With all due respect, guftafs ... leave this line of discussion alone

There's that tendency towards free speech that crosses over into fundamentalism.

}:)     [And, I might point out, fascism ... ]

509 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:17:57pm

re: #498 Honorary Yooper

I remember Cortana, and the apartment over on the far east side. I'm sure it's quite a bit bigger too now.

Cortana is not the "in" place anymore, it has been replaced with a new mall. I don't know how the stores at Cortana even stay in business anymore - lots of empty space there now.

Wow - you don't remember the name of the apt.?

510 Summer  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:18:00pm

re: #358 solomonpanting

Chimps dole out and share food in groups when there isn't enough.

511 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:18:04pm

re: #147 Killian Bundy

/take San Francisco for example

Sal: Would you consider Buddhist monks to be immoral as a class? They certainly do not believe in any God. What about Taoist sages? Or Confucians?

512 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:18:04pm
513 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:18:11pm

re: #507 ploome hineni

if we are not evolved from apes, how to explain my big ass and hairy chest?

Huh?

514 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:18:24pm

re: #501 ploome hineni
Some children dont have parents like you and I. They still deserve the benifit of a broad "education" and exposure to different ideas.

515 Naso Tang  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:18:53pm

re: #493 MandyManners

I'm just a little too tired to suss out whatever insult you're trying to make. I'm sure it's oozing nuance.

Just trying to make sure you don't feel ignored my dear.

516 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:18:53pm
517 MacGregor  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:19:19pm

re: #466 Kulhwch

I was curious so I googled religious gene - There's a whole pile I don't want to step into!

518 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:19:53pm

re: #510 Summer

Chimps dole out and share food in groups when there isn't enough.


Yeah, but they also read the bible when they are sure that no humans are around:)

519 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:20:05pm

re: #509 reine.de.tout

Cortana is not the "in" place anymore, it has been replaced with a new mall. I don't know how the stores at Cortana even stay in business anymore - lots of empty space there now.

Wow - you don't remember the name of the apt.?

It was over on Blvd de Provence.

520 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:20:19pm

re: #505 ploome hineni

Nope... a mamal that was capable of much more than modern apes are. It was able to learn to speak for example something that modern apes still are incapable of doing.

521 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:21:17pm
522 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:21:18pm

re: #516 ploome hineni

crocodile babies share?


The mother transports the baby crocs in their mouth from land to water and visa versa. How do they know not to eat the babies?

523 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:21:22pm

re: #513 MandyManners

And what about the various human groups that have very little body hair?

524 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:21:29pm

re: #507 ploome hineni

if we are not evolved from apes, how to explain my big ass and hairy chest?

but. . . but . . . if you're not a backwoods heathen redneck Catholic from Louisiana, you can't possibly have a big ass and hairy chest!

525 swamprat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:21:33pm

re: #448 FinnAgain
Thank you for your response. It was informative, and answered my questions. I feel my quote moment 48.10 was accurate, but OK. I get the part about niche-filling, but I completely missed the significance of DNA versus full chromosome strands. I did not expect that a more evolved animal would have fewer chromosomes. I knew you would have valuable insight. If you know of similar mutations, I would welcome your input.

526 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:21:34pm

re: #151 shanec99

Provide me an example of a moral society without religious underpinnings and I will agree with you.

Sal: Buddhism does not have a God; neither do Taoism or Confucianism. They are better conceived of as philosophies of living. And yet billions of highly ethical people have lived by them throughout thousands of years.

Just ask the mystical Catholic monk Thomas Merton how ethical Buddhism was.

527 Naso Tang  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:21:47pm

re: #520 shanec99

Nope... a mamal that was capable of much more than modern apes are. It was able to learn to speak for example something that modern apes still are incapable of doing.

Left yourself wide open there. ;)

528 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:22:02pm
529 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:22:30pm

re: #520 shanec99

Nope... a mamal that was capable of much more than modern apes are. It was able to learn to speak for example something that modern apes still are incapable of doing.

What did our ancestor look like 40 million years ago? How about 100 million years ago?

530 opnion  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:22:32pm

re: #522 theatheistjew

The mother transports the baby crocs in their mouth from land to water and visa versa. How do they know not to eat the babies?

Sharks often eat their young.

531 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:22:41pm

re: #488 shanec99

nope... great apes and human evolved from a common ancestor... humans did not evolve from apes

/okay, you win, I surrender

532 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:23:35pm
533 marjoriemoon  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:23:57pm

re: #480 guftafs

It's not a blind sacrifice to fight in order to prevent a repeat of 9/11.

Unfortunately, in the case of God precious reasons are given. The answer as to why "Thou shalt not kill" is, "because God says so". What if he would have said "Thou shalt kill"? Any other answer than "Because God says so" , "God is the source of good and of morality", moves us away from a religiously-based morality. Luckily.

When a young person goes off to war, any war, they do so at great personal risk for a higher ideal, which was my point.

Secondly, the commandment is "Thou shalt not murder." We must kill to eat and we must kill in war or to defend ourselves. That should go far to clear up your misconception. Murder is immoral. Killing isn't necessarily, only if it involves intent (i.e. murder).

534 swamprat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:24:08pm

re: #448 FinnAgain
Missed the 2nd half of your post. Am reading it and going to the link. Also on the phone at this moment.

535 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:24:10pm

re: #514 shanec99

Some children dont have parents like you and I. They still deserve the benifit of a broad "education" and exposure to different ideas.

perhaps, but in the proper forum. Faith and philosphy do not belong in science classes.

536 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:24:20pm
537 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:24:33pm

re: #530 opnion

Sharks often eat their young.

They often don't eat their young too. Explain why mother crocs don't eat their babies? How do they know not too? Are they guessing?

538 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:24:43pm

re: #528 ploome hineni

Two responses... I ca'nt take them all home to educate them... so I pay taxes to educate them

Yes life is not fair... but we should endeavor to make it fairer and provide a level playing field for all children.

539 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:25:40pm

re: #166 shanec99

No it says a common ancestor... not monkeys.

You may think monkeys and many people believe that... but please quote one scientific document that says humans evolved from monkeys.

Common ancestor does not mean monkey.

Sal: No, common ancestor, in this context, means something that both humans and monkeys evolved from.

540 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:25:57pm

re: #529 theatheistjew

What did our ancestor look like 40 million years ago? How about 100 million years ago?

I dont care what he looked like... my ancestor was not an ape, it was something much more than an ape.

541 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:26:09pm
542 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:26:32pm

re: #519 Honorary Yooper

It was over on Blvd de Provence.

OK. Nice awhile back, but probably no longer a place you would want to live.

543 FinnAgain  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:26:44pm

re: #448 FinnAgain

And in before the quibble. (whoops, on preview, looks like nope)
From 48:03

"To say it's just a theory is really a bit insulting to science. Because it holds ... because in science a theory holds more weight than just a fact does. "

They never said that theories "have more weight than" facts. That's total quote mining.

The soundbyte made clear that the gentleman was talking about how a theory holds more weight than a fact in isolation does. Than just a fact does.
The adverb "just" is important , and it's absolutely correct.

Theories hold more weight than isolated facts.

544 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:27:03pm

re: #535 reine.de.tout

I agree with you, ID should not be taught as science.

545 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:27:20pm
546 opnion  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:27:50pm

re: #537 theatheistjew

They often don't eat their young too. Explain why mother crocs don't eat their babies? How do they know not too? Are they guessing?

natural order? i don[t know, but in the wild it is not uncommon for animals to devour their own young,

547 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:27:58pm

re: #167 MacGregor

What if the need to believe in something greater is ingrained as an evolved survival trait into our dna? Would it be unnatural to squelch such a trait? /just askin'

Sal: I thought the whole idea of being self-consciously aware and capable of personal choice and of both good and evil is that, unlike animals, we can choose against our instincts.

548 thanos  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:28:01pm

I'm at my parents for the fourth, was having somewhat heated discussion over this, the post and the documentary cleared things up remarkably well. Thanks Charles.

[ and as everyone knows how much of a butthead I can be in an argument, the thanks isn't appreciation enough, I'd have hated to have another disowning... :)

549 marjoriemoon  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:28:20pm

re: #539 Salamantis

Sal: No, common ancestor, in this context, means something that both humans and monkeys evolved from.

Flying spagetti monster?

550 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:28:51pm

re: #541 ploome hineni

That is why we have school boards and we vote on these things... something about democracy.

None of us dictates to each other, we decide based on what we (the community) value.

551 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:28:56pm

re: #542 reine.de.tout

OK. Nice awhile back, but probably no longer a place you would want to live.

It was back in the late 1970s (77-80).

552 marjoriemoon  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:29:07pm

re: #547 Salamantis

Sal: I thought the whole idea of being self-consciously aware and capable of personal choice and of both good and evil is that, unlike animals, we can choose against our instincts.

:::waves from the Peanut Gallery:::

553 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:29:11pm
554 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:29:22pm

re: #515 Naso Tang

Just trying to make sure you don't feel ignored my dear.

*smooch*

555 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:29:28pm

re: #549 marjoriemoon

Flying spagetti monster?

Don't make me get all Last Thursday on you.

/:-)

556 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:29:43pm

re: #540 shanec99

I dont care what he looked like... my ancestor was not an ape, it was something much more than an ape.

Actually 40 million years ago it was much more like a monkey than an ape. Monkeys evolved from the same animal.

And if we go back further, our ancestor was a sponge. Or don't you believe that?

557 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:29:45pm
558 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:30:07pm

re: #521 ploome hineni

/joking

*whew*

559 Karridine  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:30:38pm

"The Intelligent Design Institute was not pleased with the verdict."

"Judge Jones received death threats, and had to be placed under round-the-clock protection..."

/Gracious God! Save us from ignorant zealots!

560 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:30:39pm
561 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:31:02pm

re: #523 shanec99

And what about the various human groups that have very little body hair?

Nordic? Innuit? American Indians? Male Olympic swimmers?

562 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:31:12pm

re: #545 ploome hineni

I wouldn't allow my kids to go to your house

you might baptise them,

for their own good, of course

No baptism is performed by a clergy man... I am not a clergy man... have not been to church in a few years, but I do believe that much of what organized religion teaches is useful for an ordered society.

563 guftafs  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:31:15pm

re: #533 marjoriemoon

When a young person goes off to war, any war, they do so at great personal risk for a higher ideal, which was my point.

Secondly, the commandment is "Thou shalt not murder." We must kill to eat and we must kill in war or to defend ourselves. That should go far to clear up your misconception. Murder is immoral. Killing isn't necessarily, only if it involves intent (i.e. murder).

My point about turning the not-murder commandment on its head was to show how amoral a commandment-based morality is. Blind obedience has nothing to do with morality of choosing between right and wrong.

564 marjoriemoon  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:31:20pm

re: #555 Honorary Yooper

Don't make me get all Last Thursday on you.

/:-)

LOL dang you no fun.

565 Summer  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:31:48pm

What is clear from everything ID people go on about is that ID is based on religious arguments.

Religious arguments have never been considered scientific. Therefore, ID is not scientific. It is rooted in religious belief. The entire point of ID is to claim a supernatural designer. That means it is religion. And if it is religion, it should not be taught in science class.

You can believe in it all you want, but it isn't science. That's the whole point. And every time an ID proponent opens their mouth, or starts typing about the reasons for believing in ID, they prove that point over...and over...and over again.

ID is a religious idea which is being pushed into the science classrooms. Stop lying about it, be honest about it, and recognize that this isn't science and it isn't constitutional.

566 marjoriemoon  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:32:09pm

re: #553 ploome hineni

a fish

I like fish

Everything I know about evolution I learned from Mr. Garrison... or is that Mrs. Garrison.

567 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:32:18pm

re: #530 opnion

Sharks often eat their young.

Another reason why some attorney jokes relate to sharks: have you ever seen what some partners do to associates?

568 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:32:21pm
569 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:32:25pm

re: #551 Honorary Yooper

It was back in the late 1970s (77-80).

I was at LSU during those years, finishing my degree that I started on in 1971. OMG, how old does that make me? (don't even want to think about it).

570 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:32:48pm

re: #556 theatheistjew

And before that perhaps... a single celled organism. Still not a monkey.

I repeat... I am not evolved from a monkey.

571 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:33:00pm

re: #511 Salamantis

Would you consider Buddhist monks to be immoral as a class? They certainly do not believe in any God. What about Taoist sages? Or Confucians?

I never said religion was the only source of morality, just a proven guide on how to successfully go through life. And not all religious societies are equal, some are more productive than others.

Are Buddhist monks amoral?

/do they spend hours on Folsum street soliciting oral sex for the cameras?

572 guftafs  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:33:15pm

re: #556 theatheistjew

Actually 40 million years ago it was much more like a monkey than an ape. Monkeys evolved from the same animal.

And if we go back further, our ancestor was a sponge. Or don't you believe that?

I can't believe that people find any simian suggestions as to man's ancestry offensive. Why is it offensive? Who cares?

573 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:33:15pm

re: #179 tunnelrat

How does anybody know what happened 5, 10 or 25 million years ago? Why not 100 million years ago? Maybe 200 million years? It is impossible to prove. You are exhibiting a great deal of faith in a theory.

Sal: we know what happened, and when, as far as common ancestors, due to the artifactual retroviral DNA sequences that humans and their closest primate relatives share (and that's not even to mention the 99% of DNA overall that we share), and also that human and more distant lifeforms share (their common ancestors are further back).

574 FinnAgain  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:33:24pm

re: #525 swamprat

Ah well. Honestly though, this is the sort of research to do before challenging a subject. It is a very, very good rule that you don't challenge anything, or even voice anything but a question, until you've not only done your homework and researched your position, but analyzed the opposing position and already gotten your counter arguments in a row.

Saves time and annoyance for everybody while avoiding rabbit trails.
Dinging down posts of that sort isn't a personal sort of action, it's just good scholarship. To use an analogy, critiquing evolution without learning about it is like critiquing the structural mechanics of the WTC collapse without first reading the NIST report.
While it may appear, or even be in the service of getting information, challenging rather than learning as a first step, short circuits the educative process.

In any case, I've not studied biology extensively since I was pre-med more than a decade ago. I'm not up on much current research. But I can point you to this as a jumping off point.

575 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:33:31pm

re: #513 MandyManners

Hairy chest come from bear.

Our common ancestor

576 opnion  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:33:38pm

re: #567 MandyManners

Another reason why some attorney jokes relate to sharks: have you ever seen what some partners do to associates?

Actually, yes, Fins in the water

577 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:33:40pm

re: #546 opnion

natural order? i don[t know, but in the wild it is not uncommon for animals to devour their own young,

Let me put it this way, if animals instinctually ate their young, especially when they don't have many offspring, their species would go extinct.
My point is that mostly they behave "morally" with respect to their offspring in order to keep the species going.
The same is true in humans, though culture can change specifics that are innate.

578 Dan G.  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:33:44pm

re: #204 guftafs

Dead on. Rousseau led to Kant and Kant was anything but pro-Enlightenment.

579 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:33:54pm
580 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:34:07pm

re: #536 ploome hineni

does your head hurt?

/probably tomorrow morning

581 Purple Prose  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:34:30pm

A Dover school board member says in the Nova documentary:

"I find it personally offensive, because I am a Christian, I believe the Bible is the inherent word of God and that the Book of Genesis tells it like it is as to how we came into being."

This is fundamentalism, every bit as absolutist and beyond being reasoned with, as Islamic fundamentalism. It is not only the rejection of reason and observations and experiments, it is the rejection of any possibility of even considering anything that deviates from a fixed and rigid interpretation of the Bible. It's saying that no matter what the "facts," I cannot accept those facts because I have an inflexible viewpoint. This is more or less the definition of fundamentalism.

Christian fundamentalists are probably largely good people. They are not sympathetic to murder in the name of God, with only the tiniest crazy exception. They are not equivalent to jihadis. A world run by modern Christian fundamentalists would not be a hellhole under sharia. It would be a place that was very confining, but it probably would function kind of like old Puritan communities. So there is a world of difference between a Christian fundamentalist and a Muslim one. But, nonetheless, fundamentalism is fundamentalism. It's a rejection of reason or even the possibility of accepting any reasonable evidence that conflicts with dogma.

There is no reason why Christians should not be able to accept the idea of evolution by natural selection. It is not incompatible with anything in the Bible, unless you take the extreme literalist fundamentalist view, in which case, reason itself is out the window. Galileo was persecuted by the Catholic Church for affirming Copernicus theory that the Earth revolved around the sun, and not the other way around. At the time, this idea was viewed as being a threat to the Christian concept of how the universe is organized and what our place in it is. Yet today, even Christian fundamentalists will accept that the Earth does revolve around the sun. It is not controversial anymore. So Christians evolved and got comfortable with an idea supported by science that went against a long-held dogma and found, lo and behold, that that acceptance did not weaken Christianity and Christian cultures. And because reason was accepted by Christians, European and then the US became the most scientifically, technologically, artistically, politically, etc. advanced cultures in the world.

Then another stumbling block came up. Evolution. But denying it does not make it any less true, and it was resisted but ultimately accepted by the Catholic Church and mainstream Protestant churches. However, Christian fundamentalists cannot accept it. That does not make it any less true. You don't "believe" in evolution or not, any more than you believe that the world is round or not, unless you deny experience-based learning because your ideology tells you to or you are psychotic. The world just is round, and to deny it is a sign of fundamentalism - the rejection of reason - or insanity. It's no different with evolution.

582 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:34:33pm

re: #572 guftafs

Because I believe that my ancestors had a greater intellectual capacity than apes. They could learn to speak for example.

583 jaunte  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:35:03pm

re: #574 FinnAgain

Let me pull that out for the highlighter:
"...challenging rather than learning as a first step, short circuits the educative process."

584 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:35:10pm

re: #582 shanec99

And now, I only grunt.

585 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:35:21pm

re: #560 ploome hineni

geepers helps me wax

Rosie, is that you?

586 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:35:53pm
587 opnion  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:35:56pm

re: #577 theatheistjew

Let me put it this way, if animals instinctually ate their young, especially when they don't have many offspring, their species would go extinct.
My point is that mostly they behave "morally" with respect to their offspring in order to keep the species going.
The same is true in humans, though culture can change specifics that are innate.

I take your point & that is correct.

588 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:36:04pm

re: #559 Karridine

"The Intelligent Design Institute was not pleased with the verdict."

"Judge Jones received death threats, and had to be placed under round-the-clock protection..."

/Gracious God! Save us from ignorant zealots!

Spooky.

589 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:36:06pm

re: #584 Ojoe

And now, I only grunt.

Priceless. lol

590 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:36:30pm

re: #586 ploome hineni

eewww

Bears are more elegant

591 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:36:36pm

re: #576 opnion

Actually, yes, Fins in the water

Lotsa' blood and guts, too.

592 guftafs  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:36:44pm

re: #584 Ojoe

And now, I only grunt.

/O-ga Bo-ga!

593 grumpy old codger  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:37:10pm

re: #530 opnion
so do guppies. maternal instincts, my ass

594 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:37:13pm

Grunt.

595 opnion  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:37:37pm

This thread is starting to remind me of the movie Alterd States.

596 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:38:10pm

I'm using a sophisticated computer for this?

597 Mich-again  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:38:41pm

Keep the iD idiotacy out of science classrooms. And keep the Marxist bullshit out of the history classes too.

598 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:38:45pm

Gotta' rassle The Kid out of the bath, a/k/a Primordial Soup when I consider what all he's been into today.

bbiab

599 Josephine  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:39:30pm

re: #582 shanec99

Because I believe that my ancestors had a greater intellectual capacity than apes. They could learn to speak for example.

Does speech derive from intelligence or the presence of a hyoid bone?

(Or maybe the combination of both?)

600 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:39:38pm

re: #197 shanec99

Right... and that is my point.

Humans did not evolve from monkeys... it is a common misconception. They shared a common mammalian ancestor.

Sal: Actually, a common protohominid ancestor.

601 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:40:33pm
602 Mich-again  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:40:35pm

re: #577 theatheistjew

I have seen momma dog refuse to feed the runt of the litter.

603 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:40:52pm
604 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:40:52pm
605 grumpy old codger  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:40:57pm

re: #570 shanec99

I would hope that any self respecting monkey would have more class than to claim me as a descendant

606 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:41:27pm
607 marjoriemoon  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:41:34pm

re: #563 guftafs

My point about turning the not-murder commandment on its head was to show how amoral a commandment-based morality is. Blind obedience has nothing to do with morality of choosing between right and wrong.

I'm not sure I can follow you because we think very differently... but I will say I mispoke about "blind obedience" when I inferred it was OK. Judaism has very little of it, actually, if any and there's a reason for everything. There's a common joke, when you have two Jews together, you have three opinions. We're always questioning stuff and believe the Bible was made to do so. It's where our oral writings (the Talmud) come from. Which are books written by lots of scholars sitting around pondering the Torah (the Five Books).

Mind you, I believe morality and ethics are rooted in the bible, but I do NOT believe one has to be religious to be moral or ethical, at all.

608 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:41:38pm

My Mexican neighbors are shooting off fireworks.

All my animals are completely freaked out.

609 kansas  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:41:39pm

re: #91 shanec99

School should be a place to explore ideas, even the ones we disagree with, if only because it prepares us for dealing with adults in a complex society full of divergent beliefs.

Learning about various philosophies cannot be bad. Knowledge is good and should be embraced.

Exactly right. That would be why there are philosophy courses where students can study various philosophies and embrace knowledge.

610 opnion  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:41:48pm

re: #601 ploome hineni

when a new lion takes over a pride, he kills all the newborn lions so that the females will ovulate and bear his offspring

infanticide is not unusual


Thank you. That is my point.

611 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:41:55pm

re: #601 ploome hineni

This shows how religion gives us a better life than the animals have.

612 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:42:15pm
613 DesertSage  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:43:25pm

One thing is clear, religion should not be taught in a science class...and neither should atheism.

614 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:43:38pm

re: #202 Buster Bunny

Dont forget the times when religion has got things horribly wrong

The plague - killing pet animals, allowing the spread of the plague, then INTERRING family member with the infected.

The witch hunts - a case where i dont even have to specify how wrong they were, by means of trial .. evidence .. solution.

The arabian solution - nuff said

The castration of priests - in order to keep the church wealthy and allow for no inheritors of their worldly good.

aside from that .. religion is good wholesome fun, a game the whole family can play (ages 3 and up .. wafers may cause choking)

Sal: Let's not forget about all those (which was it - Aztecs, Mayans, Incans) whose religion told them to keep a steady stream of beating hearts cut out of human sacrifices crammed in the stone holes of their idols to keep them alive.

615 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:43:59pm

Previous evolutionary states never really go away, they only lie dormant until they are needed,


Grunt. Grunt. Grunt.

616 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:44:39pm

re: #607 marjoriemoon

Mind you, I believe morality and ethics are rooted in the bible, but I do NOT believe one has to be religious to be moral or ethical, at all.

I agree with you on both of these points, but would add that morality and ethics are very nicely spelled out in the ten commandments, which provide an excellent blueprint for a moral and ethical life, whether one is religious or not.

617 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:44:41pm

re: #614 Salamantis

Some religions are way better than others

618 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:44:41pm
619 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:45:01pm

re: #608 reine.de.tout

My Mexican neighbors are shooting off fireworks.

All my animals are completely freaked out.

My neighbors are doing likewise, yet neither cat is freaked out, even the younger one who has never heard them before.

620 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:45:03pm

re: #204 guftafs

I don't know enough about Rousseau but I think he was actually on the side of the reaction against the Enlightenment ideas formed at its peak. That this is the case is indicated by his influence on the French Revolution and the rather ugly turn it took. Not exacly rational or anything similar to the American Revolution.

Sal: Rousseau was a Romantic, and put forth the horribly flawed idea of the Noble Savage.

621 joecitizen  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:45:31pm

Who's winnin'?

622 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:45:44pm
623 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:45:57pm

re: #601 ploome hineni

when a new lion takes over a pride, he kills all the newborn lions so that the females will ovulate and bear his offspring

infanticide is not unusual

And that happens how often? Once every 3 or 4 years? Again, it is driven by instinct, though we wouldn't call it moral human behaviour, it is moral lion behaviour. Just like when a female praying mantis eats the head of the male while mating.
All of these behaviours are what is best for the survival of the species.
And in the case of lions, it is just a speed bump in the survival of their species.
But when a healthy male lion sires cubs, he doesn't kill them or have any desire to do so.

624 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:46:10pm

re: #622 ploome hineni

grun

625 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:46:25pm

gru

626 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:46:35pm

gr

627 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:46:50pm

g.

628 opnion  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:46:52pm

Now to defeat my earlier point. We had lunch on the river today.
A family of ducks took a swim. mama duck leading, the duckings clustered behind & in back the male for protection. True parental responsibility.

629 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:47:22pm
630 Dan G.  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:47:24pm

re: #620 Salamantis

Romantic as in emotions above reason (which is contrary to the principles of the Enlightenment)... just to be clear as that word has some ambiguity associated with it.

631 Dan G.  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:47:45pm

re: #627 Ojoe

Stop that.

632 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:47:47pm
633 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:47:58pm

re: #602 Mich-again

I have seen momma dog refuse to feed the runt of the litter.

It is probably beneficial to the dog innately not to feed the runt in many cases when there are limited energy resources.
But it isn't like the dog doesn't feed the overwhelming majority of pups.

634 Mich-again  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:48:21pm

re: #608 reine.de.tout

My American neighbors are doing the same and my Beardie can't stand fireworks either. Heck a couple years ago we had the police stop at the house to notify us that the some neighbor called to complain about how our dog was barking after dark while the other neighbors were lighting off illegal fireworks. I was dumbfounded. Dude. The dog is barking because of the illegal fireworks down the street. Why not stop them? He told us that no one had called to complain about the fireworks, just the dog barking.

635 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:48:30pm

re: #631 Dan G.

OK

Actually I am highly evolved, I was just channeling my inner bear

636 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:48:54pm
637 profitsbeard  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:48:56pm

Pennsylvania, birthplace of freedom, rings again.

What the ID promoters always overlook is that the "designer" could be argued, by the next contestant in court, to be Moloch.
Or Baal.
Or Tlaloc.
Or Zeus.
Or Chthulu.
Or The Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Or aliens more advanced than we can currently conceive.

The ID'ers want to open the doors to unholy chaos when they simplistically think that they are going to restore the Christian God to the schoolroom by such a coy subterfuge.

Judged wanting.

Happy Independence Day, again!

638 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:49:04pm

re: #602 Mich-again

I have seen momma dog refuse to feed the runt of the litter.

Humans are every bit as capable of rejecting offspring as animals.

639 marjoriemoon  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:49:11pm

re: #577 theatheistjew

Let me put it this way, if animals instinctually ate their young, especially when they don't have many offspring, their species would go extinct.
My point is that mostly they behave "morally" with respect to their offspring in order to keep the species going.
The same is true in humans, though culture can change specifics that are innate.

Actually, tom cats kill their litters. It's thought that they do so because if the mother stops nursing, she'll go into heat again and he can mate. If that "theory" is true (and it probably is, but no one really knows), he has no thought whatsoever as to what his seed is creating. He just wants to have sex.

640 Macker  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:49:49pm

re: #624 Ojoe

re: #625 Ojoe

re: #626 Ojoe

re: #627 Ojoe

WTF are you trying to accomplish? You just wasted my 3000th Comment!

641 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:50:00pm

re: #613 DesertSage

One thing is clear, religion should not be taught in a science class...and neither should atheism.

How do you teach atheism? An atheist is someone who doesn't see evidence for God and answers the question does God exist with a NO.
How do you teach that?

642 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:50:49pm

re: #207 tunnelrat

I still don't see any proof of evolution-- it is only a theory. I can't prove that God created the universe but neither can you prove that humans and apes went separate ways 25 million years ago. It takes faith to believe either way.

Sal: for you to call it 'obnly a theory' means that you have no clue how strong something has to be to be considered a theory in science. And yes, we CAN prove that humans and apes went separate evolutionary ways - and less than 25 million years ago, with some of the great apes. As I said before; the proof is in the thousands of identical artifactual retroviral DNA sequences that humans and great apes share in identical locations in their respective genomes, and the statistical absurdity of claiming that their co-presence is anything but vanishingly improbable in the absence of a common ancestor. You may not like the facts, but them's them.

643 Mich-again  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:51:24pm

re: #638 Sharmuta


Humans are every bit as capable of rejecting offspring as animals.

I don't know. I haven't heard of a mom of sextuplets tossing one of them in the garbage and feeding the other five. Perhaps its happened though.

644 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:51:37pm

re: #629 ploome hineni

whenever the 'old' lion is challanged and defeated by a younger unnattached male

happens all the time

It doesn't happen enough to wipe out the species. Or even come close to wiping out the species.

645 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:52:37pm

re: #640 Macker

Ah yes, but your 3rd "Millennium" does not begin until No. 3001.

Better not reply to this.

646 formercorpsman  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:53:13pm

re: #641 theatheistjew

Actually, I would call it the promotion of that line of thinking.

What motivates groups like the ACLU, to go after religious items like the Mount Soledad Cross?

647 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:53:13pm

re: #625 Ojoe

gru

Wasn't that a Soviet military intelligence bureau?

648 newsjunkie_ky  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:53:23pm
649 rawmuse  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:53:47pm

I am here, but merely lurking.
As you were.

650 DesertSage  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:53:57pm

re: #641 theatheistjew

How do you teach atheism? An atheist is someone who doesn't see evidence for God and answers the question does God exist with a NO.
How do you teach that?

That's the whole point. It's not the place of a science teacher to tell children whether God exists or not, that question is for a philosophy class.

651 guftafs  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:54:15pm

re: #627 Ojoe

re: #626 Ojoe

re: #626 Ojoe

re: #624 Ojoe

re: #625 Ojoe

re: #626 Ojoe

Your argument against evolution speaks for itself.

652 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:54:36pm

re: #638 Sharmuta

Humans are every bit as capable of rejecting offspring as animals.

Yes, indeed. And even if they don't out and out reject their young, they sometimes fail to take proper care . . . just think of that young girl in Vermont . . .

653 wrecktafire  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:55:19pm

It's too bad that ID's proponents didn't know how to defend it. It is perfectly defensible as science, if by "science" we include the ancient science of metaphysics. The problem is that philosophers have for millennia been using the term "science" to mean any systematic field of knowledge, and that we unfortunate moderns have unplugged natural science from the higher science which rules it: philosophy. Now, what we call "science" is really the lowest sort, i.e., the study of things that can be measured.

My heart sank when I read the decision, and saw that no defense expert was able to present the "intelligence" in ID as anything but a religious concept. Again, the words are misused. "Religion" is about *worship* of a particular being in a particular way. The reasoning that attributes actions to such a supernatural being and describes the attributes of such a being is *metaphysics*, a branch of philosophy. This has nothing to do with *religion*.

Of course, this was all to be expected when we tossed 2 millenia of higher thought out the window, and started all over with, "cogito, ergo sum" (I think, therefore I am".

654 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:55:24pm

re: #637 profitsbeard

Happy Independence Day, again!

/celebrate double digit multidimensionality!

655 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:56:15pm

re: #643 Mich-again

That's not was I was talking about, and I think you know that. There are mothers who abandon their children, there are mothers who kill their children, and there are mothers who abuse their children. Cruelty to one's offspring is not exclusive to animals is all I'm saying.

656 opnion  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:56:19pm

Lizards, this is facinating. Because this is America no theocratic police will knock on your door for non belief. No Marxist thugs will come for the people of faith
It's been fun. Happy 4th!

657 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:56:51pm

re: #211 hrhamilton

I have to confess that I have pretty much have overlooked these posts on Id versus evolutionism, since I am not too interested about the topic. I should confess that I am not too informed on either one, if one accepts several science courses at the bachelor level as being uninformed. I have no idea what ID is supposed to be, other than I understand it is an alternate approach to creation.

I would probably be more sympathetic to listening to both sides if the advocates would approach their topic with more humility and honesty, recognizing the shortcomings in each. Until then I will be sceptical.

Just so you know it, I believe that God created the earth, but since I was not there, I am perfectly willing to listen to different explanations of how the earth could have come into being. And since you weren't there, I will assume that you do not have perfect knowledge of the event either.

Sal: Scientific knowledge is not perfect, or even in principle perfectible. But the age of the earth is known to within a statistically pretty narrow range, relative to that age (around 4.5 billion years), the YEC equivalent of Flat Earthers to the contrary.

658 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:57:23pm

re: #646 formercorpsman
The ACLU was also fighting for Muslim foot baths in a Michigan U.
That doesn't sound like atheist thinking to me.

659 Mich-again  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:57:32pm

re: #641 theatheistjew

Atheism is just another religion. A belief in something that can't be proven. And oh that really cheeses off the orthodox atheists whenever that is pointed out, but not once have I seen any of them explain their point of view in a logical manner. Truth is that no one knows for sure how creation happened. No I am not a promoter of ID. But I do know where to draw the line between the known and the unknown. facts. And right now in the argument of how creation happened there are no facts, just opinions.

660 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:57:40pm

re: #652 reine.de.tout

There are sadly countless cases of abandonment and neglect in our own species.

661 joecitizen  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:57:57pm

re: #642 Salamantis

Sal: for you to call it 'obnly a theory' means that you have no clue how strong something has to be to be considered a theory in science. And yes, we CAN prove that humans and apes went separate evolutionary ways - and less than 25 million years ago, with some of the great apes. As I said before; the proof is in the thousands of identical artifactual retroviral DNA sequences that humans and great apes share in identical locations in their respective genomes, and the statistical absurdity of claiming that their co-presence is anything but vanishingly improbable in the absence of a common ancestor. You may not like the facts, but them's them.

this is the 1st of these threads that I knew of and blew off reading all the posts but,other than ploome of course,I think you are winning...

662 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:58:26pm

re: #640 Macker

W00T!

663 jaunte  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:58:31pm

re: #655 Sharmuta

I can testify directly to that, as I have adopted a group of previously cast-off and abused children, whose birthparents continued to produce more.

664 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:59:05pm

re: #650 DesertSage

That's the whole point. It's not the place of a science teacher to tell children whether God exists or not, that question is for a philosophy class.

And a science teacher shouldn't say that God exists or not. And they don't except in rare instances. And they've been fined and suspended for that.
Atheism is not part of the science curriculum.

665 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:59:08pm

Is Ojoe a former member of a Soviet intelligence agency?

666 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:59:21pm

Stupid minds wanna' know.

667 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:59:26pm

re: #647 MandyManners

Well it means "Crane" in Italian, both the bird and the construction machine.

Goodnight all.

668 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 8:59:28pm

re: #663 jaunte

God bless you, {jaunte}.

669 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:00:22pm

re: #665 MandyManners

That might have been cool, but no.

Goodnight again.

670 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:00:24pm

re: #213 yehoshua

How do evolutionists explain the fact that, in the concentration camps, the prisoners who gave from their meager daily rations to help other prisoners survived, while those who kept every scrap of food they found for themselves perished? This is written about in Viktor Frankl's classic Man's Search for Meaning.
Or, closer to home, how to explain the willingness of young Americans to enlist in the armed forces and thereby risk their lives? From a strictly evvolutionary perspective, self-sacrifice, courage, and love of freedom make no sense -- if survival alone is the goal. There is a higher purpose in life that could only be instilled by a Higher Power.

Sal: It is explained by the idea that people share more of their genes first with members of their own family, then with members of their own tribe, than with others, so sacrificing onself for them preserves one's own genetic heritage. Of course this feeling can be generalized to include those with whom one shares a political system or a religion.

671 Josephine  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:00:44pm

Bedtime for Bonzo...

Uh, I mean, me and great-great-great-
great-great-great-great-great-great-
great-great-great-great-great-great-
great-great-great-great-great-great-
great-great-great-great-great-great-
great-great-great-great-great-great-
grampa.

672 jaunte  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:00:57pm

re: #668 Sharmuta

Well, it was self-interest on my part, wanting a family, but it works out for the wider society as well. Plus I get to brag online.

673 Mich-again  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:01:00pm

re: #655 Sharmuta

Cruelty to one's offspring is not exclusive to animals is all I'm saying.

Yes, but I am pointing out how a mother of a litter in the animal world will see that one or another of her offspring is not suited for survival and so she essentially kills them off. You are comparing it to mental illness in some parents that kill a child for some irrational reason. Big difference there.

674 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:01:05pm

re: #667 Ojoe

Well it means "Crane" in Italian, both the bird and the construction machine.

Goodnight all.

Sweet dreams!

675 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:01:43pm

re: #669 Ojoe

That might have been cool, but no.

Goodnight again.

Oh, shit. I was only joking.

I apologize. I was wrong.

676 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:01:45pm

re: #659 Mich-again

Atheism is just another religion. A belief in something that can't be proven. And oh that really cheeses off the orthodox atheists whenever that is pointed out, but not once have I seen any of them explain their point of view in a logical manner. Truth is that no one knows for sure how creation happened. No I am not a promoter of ID. But I do know where to draw the line between the known and the unknown. facts. And right now in the argument of how creation happened there are no facts, just opinions.

You can change the definition of religion if you want. But I'm not buying it.

Are you saying that it is a belief when I say Leprechauns don't exist? Fine, whatever floats your boat.

677 guftafs  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:02:21pm

re: #659 Mich-again

Atheism is just another religion. A belief in something that can't be proven. And oh that really cheeses off the orthodox atheists whenever that is pointed out, but not once have I seen any of them explain their point of view in a logical manner. Truth is that no one knows for sure how creation happened. No I am not a promoter of ID. But I do know where to draw the line between the known and the unknown. facts. And right now in the argument of how creation happened there are no facts, just opinions.

It's the other way around. Believers in God have to prove His existence by reference to fact. In the absence of fact there is no basis to believe in God. I reject inter-dimensional aliens sitting invisible next to me for the same reason: there is not a shred of proof to support their existence.

678 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:02:24pm

Oh, Ojoe. I am sorry.

679 DesertSage  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:02:53pm

re: #657 Salamantis

Sal: Scientific knowledge is not perfect, or even in principle perfectible. But the age of the earth is known to within a statistically pretty narrow range, relative to that age (around 4.5 billion years), the YEC equivalent of Flat Earthers to the contrary.

The men who wrote the bible thousands of years ago had no concept of modern scientific dating methods. They were basically going by an educated guess when they came up with the earths age at 6,000 or 10,000 years...whatever it is that they said.
I wouldn't hold 'ole Moses to the same scrutiny as if he were a modern day scientist. Plus, he was a pretty cool dude.

680 formercorpsman  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:03:00pm

re: #658 theatheistjew

No, you are correct with respect to the foot baths.

But as far as the what I referred to, and quite frankly, and massive recurring theme as it relates to any Christian affiliation, they have gone after things tooth and nail at the expense of the taxpayer.

The Mount Soledad Cross was argued by the ACLU on behalf of an atheist named Philip Paulson who filed the complaint.

It is a common tactic.

With such a history, it is blatantly contradictory to then petition on behalf of foot-baths.

Would you not agree?

681 Mich-again  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:03:10pm

re: #676 theatheistjew

I don't give a crap what you think about leprechauns. What the hell does that have to do with what I posted. More nonsense.

682 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:03:19pm
683 Kulhwch  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:04:08pm
re: #250 Salamantis
re: #44 yehoshua

Sorry, but anything promoted by PBS -- global warming, retreat from Iraq, a Palestinian state, the theory of evolution --
should not be taken seriously.

Sal: This particular fallacy is known as the fallacy of argument from association.

... or lack thereof ...

}:P     [Son, I say son, it's a joke, son!]

684 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:05:59pm

Personal fireworks nearly rival that of the professional displays in my neighborhood. They've been going nuts since the end of the show at Powderhorn Park (city sponsored fireworks exposition).

Happy Independence Day, everyone.

685 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:06:03pm

re: #680 formercorpsman

No, you are correct with respect to the foot baths.

But as far as the what I referred to, and quite frankly, and massive recurring theme as it relates to any Christian affiliation, they have gone after things tooth and nail at the expense of the taxpayer.

The Mount Soledad Cross was argued by the ACLU on behalf of an atheist named Philip Paulson who filed the complaint.

It is a common tactic.

With such a history, it is blatantly contradictory to then petition on behalf of foot-baths.

Would you not agree?

I am not a fan of the ACLU because of their hypocrisy and far Left ideals.
Far Left ideals and atheism do not go hand in hand. Atheists have all sorts of different political ideology beliefs.

686 DesertSage  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:06:32pm

re: #664 theatheistjew

And a science teacher shouldn't say that God exists or not. And they don't except in rare instances. And they've been fined and suspended for that.
Atheism is not part of the science curriculum.

So were in agreement. And f a teacher does tell a student that God does not exist, then that teacher would be teaching atheism. That's how one teaches atheism.
And it happens. It happened to my kid.

687 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:07:09pm

re: #681 Mich-again

I don't give a crap what you think about leprechauns. What the hell does that have to do with what I posted. More nonsense.

It has everything to do with what you wrote? Are you thick?

688 Mich-again  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:07:25pm

re: #677 guftafs


It's the other way around.

No its not its the same thing. If you stand up on a milk crate and scream out to people passing by on a street corner "There Is No God!" you are just as big a fool as the guy on the next corner screaming out " Genesis is the story of creation!" Neither of you has any basis in fact for what you believe. Thus you both subscribe to a religion. Just different ones.

689 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:07:29pm

I've been slowly watching the video, pausing to read the thread, and coming to the end the point is raise (which we've seen countless times on other threads as well) of "just letting the kids know there's an alternative" to "do their own research" because they're "being indoctrinated with Darwin".

I'm now finding this line of reasoning very insulting to the intelligence of these kids. I think it's in our nature to do spiritual searching- to either confirm what we believe or find something we believe to be better, so to somehow think these kids need it foisted on them in a science classroom shows, at least to me, who it is who's really trying to indoctrinate kids.

690 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:07:53pm

re: #237 swamprat

At minute 53 two strands of DNA are shown to have "merged". Although predicted, there is a missing "centromere" which is studiously ignored. FinnAgain:, I was correct about seemingly convergent DNA. At minute 47.02, I learned that the wily creationists have kept those transitional fossils out of the classroom. At minute 48.10, I leaned that "theories have more weight" than facts. From the music I have assumed that Dover, Pennsylvania is somewhere in Mississippi, but I can't find it on a map. I do know that it is a rural, rural, rural, town. I lost count of the rurals. Possibly I was distracted by the banjos and blues music. The best part is when a chromosome is predicted that will have two centromeres with a endomere in the center. Somehow they claim "victory!", while totally ignoring the missing centromere. And I don't recall merging DNA as part of the Evolution Science. Could this be a hybrid? Or two existing (in one specie) chromosomes? And here is the most important question. Do we have any other examples of merged DNA?

Time for this, yet again:

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

Excerpt:
“If Charles Darwin reappeared today, he might be surprised to learn that humans are descended from viruses as well as from apes,” Weiss wrote.

Darwin’s surprise almost certainly would be mixed with delight: when he suggested, in “The Descent of Man” (1871), that humans and apes shared a common ancestor, it was a revolutionary idea, and it remains one today. Yet nothing provides more convincing evidence for the “theory” of evolution than the viruses contained within our DNA. Until recently, the earliest available information about the history and the course of human diseases, like smallpox and typhus, came from mummies no more than four thousand years old. Evolution cannot be measured in a time span that short. Endogenous retroviruses provide a trail of molecular bread crumbs leading millions of years into the past.

Darwin’s theory makes sense, though, only if humans share most of those viral fragments with relatives like chimpanzees and monkeys. And we do, in thousands of places throughout our genome. If that were a coincidence, humans and chimpanzees would have had to endure an incalculable number of identical viral infections in the course of millions of years, and then, somehow, those infections would have had to end up in exactly the same place within each genome. The rungs of the ladder of human DNA consist of three billion pairs of nucleotides spread across forty-six chromosomes. The sequences of those nucleotides determine how each person differs from another, and from all other living things. The only way that humans, in thousands of seemingly random locations, could possess the exact retroviral DNA found in another species is by inheriting it from a common ancestor.

691 Summer  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:08:13pm

re: #659 Mich-again

Atheism is just another religion. A belief in something that can't be proven. And oh that really cheeses off the orthodox atheists whenever that is pointed out, but not once have I seen any of them explain their point of view in a logical manner. Truth is that no one knows for sure how creation happened. No I am not a promoter of ID. But I do know where to draw the line between the known and the unknown. facts. And right now in the argument of how creation happened there are no facts, just opinions.

Atheism isn't a religion. Atheism is simply the rejection of God and the supernatural as a natural explanation and guiding principle. Atheism has no catechism, no dogma, no rituals, no organizational structures, no laws or beliefs other than a single declaration that this person does not believe that God exists.

That's all it is. Just saying that is hardly a religion.

"Atheism is a religion" is as misguided a notion as "Evolution is just a theory".

Maybe you're referring to secular humanism. If so, please be more clear.

And, yet again to hash out the other refutation of this argument you stated: You're an atheist too. You don't believe in Thor, Wotan, Moloch, Baal, or a thousand or more other gods. Atheists don't either. We just "go one god further". If you think that this is the basis of a religion, you're standing on no ground at all.

692 freetoken  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:08:20pm

re: #679 DesertSage

The men who wrote the bible thousands of years ago had no concept of modern scientific dating methods. They were basically going by an educated guess when they came up with the earths age at 6,000 or 10,000 years...whatever it is that they said.

Ironically, they did not say. The whole dating mischief came later.

693 Mich-again  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:08:26pm

re: #687 theatheistjew

Nope. Why do you care.

694 Macker  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:08:57pm

re: #645 Ojoe

The way I see it:
1 to 1000 - First Millennium
1001 to 2000 - Second Millennium
2001 to 3000 - Third Millennium
3001 to 4000 - Fourth Millennium

Any questions?

/grins

695 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:09:14pm

re: #686 DesertSage

So were in agreement. And f a teacher does tell a student that God does not exist, then that teacher would be teaching atheism. That's how one teaches atheism.
And it happens. It happened to my kid.

He is giving his personal opinion. If he is stating this in a science class during school hours, he is wrong.
If a student asks him if he believes in God or not, he should be able to answer the question and also say why.

696 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:09:31pm

re: #677 guftafs

It's the other way around. Believers in God have to prove His existence by reference to fact. In the absence of fact there is no basis to believe in God.

We don't have to prove anything to anyone.

/good luck in your life's path

697 Mich-again  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:09:37pm

re: #691 Summer

Prove it. Give me a recipe for a paramecium.

698 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:10:13pm

re: #239 shanec99

It walked like a monkey, but it had a capacity to grow into something that was had a greater intellectual capacity than a monkey.

Please do not presume that you know anything about my academic back ground. I do understand what an evolutionary tree is.

Because a horse and donkey look alike does not mean a horse is a donkey. It means they may have shared a common ancestor... but one did not evolve from the other... they both evolved from the same ancestor, not from each other.

It is the same with humans and other primates.

Sal: Humans and other great apes all evolved from earlier primates just like horses and donkeys can both be traced back to eohippus.

699 grumpy old codger  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:10:57pm

I'm gonna get out the ouija board and talk with Bishop Usher. That should put this whole thing to rest. Nite all!

700 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:11:09pm

re: #688 Mich-again

No its not its the same thing. If you stand up on a milk crate and scream out to people passing by on a street corner "There Is No God!" you are just as big a fool as the guy on the next corner screaming out " Genesis is the story of creation!" Neither of you has any basis in fact for what you believe. Thus you both subscribe to a religion. Just different ones.

Atheists do not scream out there is no God. They say that there is no evidence for God so why should they consider God, just like there is no evidence for Leprechauns. Why should we consider Leprechauns as an option?

Define religion.

701 guftafs  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:11:10pm

re: #688 Mich-again

No its not its the same thing. If you stand up on a milk crate and scream out to people passing by on a street corner "There Is No God!" you are just as big a fool as the guy on the next corner screaming out " Genesis is the story of creation!" Neither of you has any basis in fact for what you believe. Thus you both subscribe to a religion. Just different ones.

Didn't say it was the same thing. Burden of proof is on the one making a positive statement, such as "There is life on Mars", or "The butler did it, in the library, with the candlestick", or "God exists".

702 Mich-again  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:12:28pm

I believe in evolution because of all the facts and data.

But a belief in evolution is not the same thing as atheism. Evolution explains how life evolved. Not how it was created.

703 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:12:35pm

re: #241 Killian Bundy

Gee, where are they allowed to do that?

/and let's welcome all our militant atheist commenters

Sal: Right now, they are allowed to do that in Louisiana. And I'm a Pagan, btw. Have been for close to thirty years. But thank you for assuming.

704 formercorpsman  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:12:37pm

re: #685 theatheistjew

I can agree with you on part of that.

But for the very topic for which this thread is about, it paints certain religious people into a corner. Do all of them ascribe to such notions bestowed by the Discovery Institute?

Even if they choose to believe in ID theory, but are not in for promoting against being taught in a science class, it is still attached to the religious observers.

Why?

Because that is who is behind it.

Why does the ACLU have the reputation for trying to cleanse American public life free from historical religious roots?

Because it is militant atheists pushing that agenda.

705 Summer  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:12:43pm

re: #697 Mich-again

That's not how proof works, and you know it.

If I came up to you and told you that faeries existed, and you said no, and then I told you to prove they don't exist or you're a total fucking imbecile, you'd look at me funny.

If you come up to me and tell me that God exists, and I say no, and you then say prove he doesn't, and I look at you like you're a total fucking imbecile for asking me to prove that...

Fill in the rest yourself.

706 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:13:40pm

Two schoolboys were allegedly disciplined after refusing to kneel down and "pray to Allah" during a religious education lesson.

It was claimed that the boys, from a year seven class of 11 and 12-year-olds, were given detention after refusing to take part in a practical demonstration of how Allah is worshipped.

SNIP

From earlier today here.

707 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:13:48pm
708 swamprat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:14:57pm

re: #690 Salamantis
Viruses(viri?) are fasincating. As are retro-evolutions(winged ground-birds, atophied apendages, etc.

709 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:14:57pm

re: #679 DesertSage

I wouldn't hold 'ole Moses to the same scrutiny as if he were a modern day scientist. Plus, he was a pretty cool dude.

/Biblical Genealogy, the Koran ain't got nothing

710 Mich-again  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:15:25pm

re: #700 theatheistjew

Atheists do not scream out there is no God. They say that there is no evidence for God so why should they consider God.

Nor is there a shred of evidence or data that there is no God. Create life in a petri dish and then your argument has a leg to stand on.

711 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:15:26pm
712 kafir  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:15:44pm

re: #488 shanec99

Correct. See this.

We are more closely related to chimps than gorillas

713 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:15:45pm

re: #702 Mich-again

I believe in evolution because of all the facts and data.

But a belief in evolution is not the same thing as atheism. Evolution explains how life evolved. Not how it was created.

Evolution is not something that is believed or not believed. It is fact. So it is either accepted by you or it isn't.

There are many theists who accept abiogenesis btw.

Atheists just say the world makes sense without God, and there is no evidence or need to put God in the equation.

714 DesertSage  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:15:47pm

re: #695 theatheistjew

He is giving his personal opinion. If he is stating this in a science class during school hours, he is wrong.
If a student asks him if he believes in God or not, he should be able to answer the question and also say why.

That's not what happened to my kid. My son was asking basic questions about evolution and dared to say that some people believe that God created the universe. The teacher got very belligerent and told him that evolution proves that there is no God.

And yes, I did have a talk with the principle. She said that this was an ongoing problem with this particular teacher and there had been other complaints. The teacher wasn't working at that school the next year.

715 Summer  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:17:56pm

re: #710 Mich-again

Stop dodging the issue. Just because nobody can prove the non-existence of God doesn't mean that Atheism is a religion.

It means we're still waiting for the evidence.

I take it you believe in faeries, goblins, trolls, orcs and the rest because nobody can prove they don't exist? How quaint.

716 guftafs  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:19:27pm

re: #710 Mich-again

Nor is there a shred of evidence or data that there is no God. Create life in a petri dish and then your argument has a leg to stand on.

There is no evidence that you don't have terminal cancer.
There is no evidence that 5,000 jihad airborne troops won't descend on your roof in 20 minutes.
There is no evidence that somewhere on the globe a pair of rabbits are not locked in a passionate tango at this very moment.
There is no evidence that hostile aliens aren't tampering with our perception of reality and it may all be an illusion.
etc.
etc.
etc.

717 Summer  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:19:35pm

re: #710 Mich-again

I take it you must also believe in Allah, Thor, Wotan, Odin, Baal, Zeus and a ton of other stuff because you, nor I, can actually prove they don't exist.

Or are you picking and choosing and, thus, being really hypocritical and disingenuous?

718 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:19:37pm
719 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:20:18pm

re: #710 Mich-again

Nor is there a shred of evidence or data that there is no God. Create life in a petri dish and then your argument has a leg to stand on.

There is no shred of evidence or data that there are no Leprechauns or Faeries either.
As far as how life began. This is what it looks like probably happened.

720 DesertSage  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:21:00pm

re: #715 Summer

I take it you believe in faeries, goblins, trolls, orcs and the rest because nobody can prove they don't exist? How quaint.

Way to be condescending Summer...equate someones deep held, honest belief in God with faeries, goblins, trolls and orcs.

721 exredtory  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:21:04pm

Everything I need to know about intelligent design I learned from David Hume's Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion. I recommend it heartily.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

722 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:21:07pm

re: #703 Salamantis

they are allowed to do that in Louisiana.

Louisiana Will Face Lawsuit If New Law Brings Religion Into Public School Science Classes, Says Americans United

/guess again

723 Kulhwch  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:21:41pm
re: #311 SayeretMatkal
re: #271 theatheistjew

Viewing stars in the solar system is like having a time machine. Again, you have to be completely wilfully ignorant of science to be a YEC.

Oh? And why's that? Were you there when the universe started? Because, I mean SURELY you must know exactly how the distance of stars would cement our universal history theories...right?

So it's completely impossible that perhaps some intelligent being set the universe and all related material into motion with everything already occurring, thereby creating a planet that was already hit by the light of stars? Or that the light of dying stars is relatively new BECAUSE of such a creation? Am I truly ignoring the evidence? I'm not denying the vast expanse of the universe or the incredibly long distances light must travel to reach us, but I am open to the thought that perhaps it was STARTED on the same motion, not chaotic and unplanned like the "big bang" theory. So is that okay? Does considering other options make me stupid?

I suppose it's a moot point to ask- I forgot you lived back then. I guess I'll go back to my "willfully ignorant" life and let you reminisce about your childhood during the sparking of the universe.

So your Deity didn't create a new universe, but purposely designed a universe to look older than it was for some reason?

}:)     [And for what point?  Just curious ... ]

724 Summer  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:21:42pm

re: #720 DesertSage

If he didn't have such a pathetically illogical point of view, then I wouldn't have to be condescending about it.

725 Mich-again  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:21:49pm

re: #707 ploome hineni

the ROmans, the arabs and the chinese have in fairly recent memory/history practised infanticide

So have 21st century Americans. And it will become more prevalent with DNA testing. Someday a doctor will be telling a prospective mother "yes you are pregnant but we have determined that your embryo has a high risk of someday developing "X" disease. Do you still want to bring it to full term?"

Then what?

726 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:21:56pm

re: #257 SayeretMatkal

And faith in said "scientific method"...

Until somebody invents a time machine and witnesses the birth of the universe and the events leading up to the 21st Century, it is a matter of faith. Since we have no such technology, we are left here to study, observe, and have faith in our findings. IDers, Evolutionists or any other alternative believers, that's what they do. The means vary, the evidence is scrutinized and ideas are made, but... it is still faith. Bottom line.

I for one am a young Earth Creationist. I have come to my own faith conclusions by what I have studied, witnessed and observed. Would I be called un-scientific? Yes, many people would unashamedly label me that without any consideration for what I actually thought.

But what makes me any "less scientific" than Evolutionists? By labeling the opposing theory as "religious nonsense", am I not ruining the very basis of science- which is observe from all sides to determine fact? How UN-SCIENTIFIC is that of them? I'd go so far as to call it their own religion (but then I'd be labeled a hypocrite).

It's an interesting paradox- to require faith in a theory that itself would try to convince you didn't require faith, only "logic" or "science".

"Have faith that you don't require faith." - Doesn't really work out, buddies.

That's my 2 cents.

:P

Sal: Actually, we can see a lot of that stuff. We can look into the night sky with powerful telescopes and see stars and galaxies billions of light years away, which means it took their light billions of years to get here. Looking deep into space is looking back in time. And the red-shift coefficient of the Big Bang echo that permeates everywhere we've looked dates our universe to around 13.7 billion years of age. If one truly understands paleontology, geology, plate tectonics, carbon dating, and a host of other scientific disciplines, and takes a look at their overwhelming evidence, one must conclude that the earth is about 4.5 billion years old.

727 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:21:57pm

re: #718 ploome hineni

you all hear that the GOv of FLorida is getting married?

To whom?

728 talon_262  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:22:05pm

re: #171 Noam Sayin'

And that dork who makes furniture with colonial period tools.

Hey, that show was pretty neat...

729 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:22:06pm

re: #714 DesertSage

That's not what happened to my kid. My son was asking basic questions about evolution and dared to say that some people believe that God created the universe. The teacher got very belligerent and told him that evolution proves that there is no God.

And yes, I did have a talk with the principle. She said that this was an ongoing problem with this particular teacher and there had been other complaints. The teacher wasn't working at that school the next year.

Evolution does not prove that there is no God. It does prove that the earth is old and that man didn't poof here as man though.
And the teacher was rightfully let go.

730 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:22:07pm
731 profitsbeard  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:22:51pm

re: #697
Mich-again

Prove it. Give me a recipe for a paramecium.

#711 ploome hineni

frying or baking it?


Better hurry, now there are two.

Time to split.

Nite all.

732 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:24:28pm

re: #258 Josephine

This interests me.

What do you (or anyone who cares to offer their opinion) think the common ancestor might have been?

What type of being could have, as descendants, both apes and humans?

Does the study of genetics tell us anything about this yet?

Sal: It tells us that first the ancestors of orangutans diverged, then the ancestors of gorillas diverged, then the ancestors of chimpanzees and the ancestors of humans diverged.

733 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:24:36pm

re: #725 Mich-again

So have 21st century Americans. And it will become more prevalent with DNA testing. Someday a doctor will be telling a prospective mother "yes you are pregnant but we have determined that your embryo has a high risk of someday developing "X" disease. Do you still want to bring it to full term?"

Then what?

What about testing that will determine that before pregnancy?

734 formercorpsman  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:24:47pm

re: #715 Summer

I think the way in which someone like you perceives the description when atheism is called a religion, oftentimes is not the way the purveyor is not intending it.

I suspect when compared to religious construct of established religions, no, there is not a catechism, etc.

When someone uses the descriptive, it would appear, atheism has fervent followers who embrace the notion that anything religious displayed in public is the nail upon the atheism hammer must hit.

A similar blind devotion not so much atheism as the religion, but atheism the crusade.

735 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:24:55pm
736 Mich-again  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:25:07pm

All of you have not raised a single good point to refute that a blind faith that there is no creator is any different an argument than having a blind faith that there is one.

But keep hurling insults if that soothes your egos. I really don't care one bit. Ha.

737 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:25:12pm

re: #703 Salamantis

And I'm a Pagan, btw. Have been for close to thirty years. But thank you for assuming.

/sorry, I'm sure I'm missing the nuance, but what's the difference from atheism?

738 swamprat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:25:28pm

re: #237 swamprat

At minute 53 two strands of DNA are shown to have "merged". Although predicted, there is a missing "centromere" which is studiously ignored.


After looking carefully, that "missing" centromere is existent, but "inactive" which is why it is sometimes not shown, and sometimes shown faintly.

739 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:26:38pm

re: #262 mama winger

I'm not making fun of anyone.

You are making an argument that the point of evolution is to survive and reproduce. I am saying that I see much evidence to the contrary.

That's the thing about self-conscious awareness; it permits us to choose to act in ways that are contrary to our instincts.

740 Summer  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:27:07pm

re: #736 Mich-again

And you haven't refuted the point that the entire premise of your point is logically flawed.

741 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:27:35pm

re: #737 Killian Bundy

/sorry, I'm sure I'm missing the nuance, but what's the difference from atheism?

Massive.

742 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:27:48pm
743 marjoriemoon  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:29:20pm

re: #742 ploome hineni

Carole ROme

Now that's interesting.

744 Purple Prose  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:29:21pm

I find great comfort in knowing that I am about 99% identical to chimpanzees at the DNA level. It makes me feel less bad about being about 99.9% identical to bin Laden and Ahmadinejad.

745 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:29:56pm

re: #672 jaunte

Well, it was self-interest on my part, wanting a family, but it works out for the wider society as well. Plus I get to brag online.

Well, you can say it was "self-interest" on your part, but the bottom line, you were "self-interested" in providing good for children needing it, and that's pretty selfless "self-interest", if you ask me.

I hold adoptive parents in the highest esteem.
Hats off to you, and God bless.

746 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:30:10pm
747 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:30:22pm

re: #741 MandyManners

Massive.

So pagans worship something?

/Al Gore?

748 DesertSage  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:30:49pm

re: #730 ploome hineni

lol

that is not condescending

defend your position, Summer makes a valid point

My point was that one does not need to equate God to leprechauns, fairies and little green men. One can have a respectful disagreement about whether God exists or not.

Whether leprechauns exist is a whole other subject.
(And yes, I happen to believe in them too)
:')

749 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:30:52pm
750 Kulhwch  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:31:09pm

re: #314 mama winger

My conclusion would be then, that only muslims are climbing the evolutionary ladder successfully.

If we let them.  Look, we have superior science, intellect, treatment of people for the human condition, etc.  We've shed almost all the barbarity and superstition that held us back.  We've mastered superior social structures (democracy and freedom) and would, if left unchecked, be heading for the stars.

And we're not reproducing in the numbers to beat them.  Like sheep we're shuffling along, resting on our laurels, while our civilization is starting to be overrun.

We used to be a nation of do-ers, now with the internet, with television, etc., we've become a fat bloated nation of watchers.  And we're going to be watching when the first line of invaders come over the walls.  I don't like it, but fuck, it's a fact!

}:)     [Unless we get our act together, its going to be a curtain call.]

751 marjoriemoon  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:31:38pm

re: #746 ploome hineni

do you live in florida>?

Miami. You're mid-State? I read on the wiki he once dated Katherine Harris. Don't know if it's true. That shocked me too, on a few different levels.

752 jaunte  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:31:43pm

re: #745 reine.de.tout

Thanks! It's been rewarding in all kinds of ways.

753 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:31:56pm

re: #742 ploome hineni

Carole ROme

Pretty people.

754 Mich-again  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:32:35pm

re: #740 Summer

And you haven't refuted the point that the entire premise of your point is logically flawed.

Sure I have. There is no proof of a creator, nor is there proof of the absence of one. I am only pointing out that it is just as foolish to have a blind faith in either theory seeing as neither is based in fact.

755 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:32:59pm

re: #744 Purple Prose

I find great comfort in knowing that I am about 99% identical to chimpanzees at the DNA level.

/the ape's extra chromosome pair is the sticking point

756 Summer  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:34:08pm

re: #748 DesertSage

My point was that one does not need to equate God to leprechauns, fairies and little green men. One can have a respectful disagreement about whether God exists or not.

The point is that to many other people, their belief in trolls and faeries is just as real and important as some people's belief in God. You disparage one but not the other. I, at least, disparage equally across the board. =)

Hence, my argument is logically superior and perfect. Time to choose another method of attack. =)

757 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:34:21pm

re: #754 Mich-again

Sure I have. There is no proof of a creator, nor is there proof of the absence of one. I am only pointing out that it is just as foolish to have a blind faith in either theory seeing as neither is based in fact.

Again, atheists do not have blind faith there is no God. We just say there is no evidence for God. Show me evidence, and I'll consider the possibility.

758 jaunte  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:35:12pm

I don't think the political tactics of the Discovery Institute are ethically defensible.

759 Summer  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:35:33pm

re: #754 Mich-again

I am not basing my Atheism on faith. I am saying: I don't see any evidence of God, therefore I don't believe in him yet.

How hard is this to understand?

760 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:36:10pm

re: #747 Killian Bundy

So pagans worship something?

/Al Gore?

Oh, please.

I don't know if you are seriious or not.

So, I don't know how to respond.

761 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:36:49pm

re: #756 Summer

The point is that to many other people, their belief in trolls and faeries is just as real and important as some people's belief in God.

/thus spaketh the atheist

762 formercorpsman  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:36:50pm

One does have to realize the irony of today however.

232 years ago, this very day, our nation is noted for her Declaration of Independence.

Imagine if this were today. In our current place and time.

The ACLU would be leading the charge to eliminate much of the language contained in that government document.

763 Mich-again  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:37:18pm

re: #733 MandyManners

What about testing that will determine that before pregnancy?

That is a good question. I think we all have recessive genes but whether or not they will rear their ugly head in our offspring depends on the recessive genes in the partner who helps create the child.

764 Mich-again  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:38:00pm

re: #756 Summer

You haven't made a good point yet. Pure drivel.

765 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:38:37pm

re: #728 talon_262

Hey, that show was pretty neat...

Absolutely. I love that kind of stuff. In one episode, the guy sharpened a hatchet in the colonial method, and to show how sharp it was, he ran his finger across the blade - and sliced it wide open.

766 ggt  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:39:08pm

Good Evening Lizards! It was a perfect 4th of July in Chicagoland today. Happy 4th to yo-all!

Is it safe to stop-in?

How are you-all tonite?

767 Summer  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:39:16pm

re: #761 Killian Bundy

So, are you implying that what I said isn't true? =)

To the others: my point still stands.

768 DesertSage  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:39:37pm

re: #756 Summer

Hence, my argument is logically superior and perfect. Time to choose another method of attack. =)

Well, I happen to have seen a leprechaun with my own two eyes, therefore my argument is more logically superior and perfect.

But seriously, yes, the merits of your argument are fine, I never said they weren't. I had a problem with your presentation.

769 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:40:22pm

re: #758 jaunte

I don't think the political tactics of the Discovery Institute are ethically defensible.

I agree- very underhanded and disingenuous.

It's like Thanos mentioned- what part of "Thou shall not bear False Witness" did these Christians miss?

770 sngnsgt  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:41:05pm

Lots of not so intelligent people here in Erie, PA. Am I wrong to hope an older relative moves on to a higher level so I can leave PA?

771 Summer  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:41:22pm

re: #764 Mich-again

How is it drivel? You're just dodging the issue and lying about the premise.

Asking for somebody to prove that God doesn't exist simply to show everyone that he in fact does is a stupid and illogical point. It doesn't work. The point is I can do the same for anything I want that doesn't exist and that you know doesn't exist. You can't refute that argument, so you're going on an ad-hominem attack.

Typical extremist and stupid bigotry is what it is.

772 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:41:31pm

re: #311 SayeretMatkal

Oh? And why's that? Were you there when the universe started? Because, I mean SURELY you must know exactly how the distance of stars would cement our universal history theories...right?

So it's completely impossible that perhaps some intelligent being set the universe and all related material into motion with everything already occurring, thereby creating a planet that was already hit by the light of stars? Or that the light of dying stars is relatively new BECAUSE of such a creation? Am I truly ignoring the evidence? I'm not denying the vast expanse of the universe or the incredibly long distances light must travel to reach us, but I am open to the thought that perhaps it was STARTED on the same motion, not chaotic and unplanned like the "big bang" theory. So is that okay? Does considering other options make me stupid?

I suppose it's a moot point to ask- I forgot you lived back then. I guess I'll go back to my "willfully ignorant" life and let you reminisce about your childhood during the sparking of the universe.

Sal: Yes, you're completely ignoring the evidence. Vast masses of it. Or else, postulating a lying deity that would fabricate all that evidence to test your faith.

773 Mich-again  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:41:37pm

re: #757 theatheistjew

Again, atheists do not have blind faith there is no God. We just say there is no evidence for God. Show me evidence, and I'll consider the possibility.

You haven't debated with many of the atheists around here then thats for sure. I have and their blind faith is of the same magnitude as the folks who push the notion that the book of Genesis is the story of creation.

774 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:42:00pm
775 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:42:19pm

re: #767 Summer

So, are you implying that what I said isn't true? =)

To the others: my point still stands.

/do you believe in trolls and faeries?

776 Mich-again  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:42:31pm

re: #771 Summer

and lying about the premise.

Point out where I lied.

777 jaunte  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:42:38pm

re: #762 formercorpsman

There was a link posted earlier to some statements by Thomas Jefferson. He and others actually took a strong position in respect to protecting a diverse expression of religious views:
"Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."
-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

778 Carbine Footprint  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:42:56pm

Charles, you realize of course, that you've become possessed. Father Merrin wishes see to speak with you.

779 S.P.E.C.T.R.E.  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:42:59pm

The debate is over, we have consensus. Now can we move on to more pressing topics?

780 formercorpsman  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:43:32pm

re: #758 jaunte

If that was in reference to my #704, that was my point.

781 Mich-again  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:43:45pm

I can't believe I am debating with a cartoon skank.

782 Summer  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:44:09pm

re: #768 DesertSage

I see no difference between believing in God and believing in faeries. What makes them so different? Nothing. Time to do away with the holier than thou assumptions about God and other "lesser" beliefs. To some, those "lesser" beliefs are better than the "God" beliefs. Time to start treating everything equally when examining them.

I use the same method to critique Obama, Jihadis, and ditzes who put on makeup while driving the car. People who tell me that God holds a special place free from examination fall into the same category as those others and anyone else.

783 DesertSage  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:44:47pm

re: #779 S.P.E.C.T.R.E.

The debate is over, we have consensus. Now can we move on to more pressing topics?

Which debate is over? The one on whether God exists or not? That's far from over.

784 jaunte  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:45:03pm

re: #780 formercorpsman

Oh, sorry. Infidels included!

785 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:45:07pm

re: #322 shanec99

Please stop forcing Wikipedia down my throat.

The journals I read say hominid... and its the term I use for my ancestor, not monkey.

Chose what you want to call your ancestor... if you want to call your ancestor a monkey... then go ahead mine i not a monkey.

Mine is a hominid.

Sal: Hominahominahominahomina...;~)

786 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:45:35pm

re: #768 DesertSage

Well, I happen to have seen a leprechaun with my own two eyes, therefore my argument is more logically superior and perfect.

DON'T KISS THE BLARNEY STONE!

/the locals consider it a running joke and urinate on it in off hours

787 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:45:40pm

re: #773 Mich-again

You haven't debated with many of the atheists around here then thats for sure. I have and their blind faith is of the same magnitude as the folks who push the notion that the book of Genesis is the story of creation.

I'm a member of Raving Atheists and the Atheist blog roll (over 650 blogs).
None have a blind faith there is no God. We all acknowledge that there is no evidence for a God. Some go further and say that there should be tons of evidence that God exists, so it is highly unlikely that there is one. That is not blind faith.

788 Summer  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:45:53pm

re: #775 Killian Bundy

No, and I don't believe in God either. There's no difference to me. Nor should there be for you.

Now, if you tell me that you believe in all of it...then you have a logical ground to stand on. Then I won't debate the illogicality of that belief on that premise.

But you don't believe they all exist. So you don't have a logical ground to stand on.

So sorry. You lose.

789 jaunte  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:46:02pm

re: #781 Mich-again

It would be great not to see that word here as much as i've seen it lately.

790 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:46:19pm

re: #779 S.P.E.C.T.R.E.

The debate is over, we have consensus. Now can we move on to more pressing topics?

/you wish

791 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:46:52pm

re: #755 Killian Bundy

Yup, it was addressed in the video Charles linked to.

792 joecitizen  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:47:11pm

on 2md (or 3rd?) thought, Summer is winnin'...

793 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:47:23pm

re: #332 marjoriemoon

The short answer is No. But it would require a much longer study than anyone here could give you.

Abraham was the father of the Jews and his trials and tribulations were unique to him as was many of the early scholars during the time that God had a more "hand's on" approach. According to Jewish tradition, Issac knew he was going to be sacrificed and went willingly, btw. The entire episode teaches us that child sacrifice is an abomination, as child sacrifice was common to the people at the time. God was saying he doesn't require it.

Sal: A lot of the same laws as the Mosaic Laws can be found in the Hammurabic Code, which precedes it by hundreds of years.

794 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:47:37pm

re: #788 Summer

So sorry. You lose.

/so you're a militant atheist?

795 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:48:37pm

Please ride for the National Anthem

796 DesertSage  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:48:50pm

re: #782 Summer

I see no difference between believing in God and believing in faeries. What makes them so different? Nothing. Time to do away with the holier than thou assumptions about God and other "lesser" beliefs. To some, those "lesser" beliefs are better than the "God" beliefs. Time to start treating everything equally when examining them.

Hey, it's a free country, you can treat people any way you want...within the guidelines of the law.

Maybe I just like to treat people with a little bit more respect. But hey, that's just me. Like I said, it's a free country.

797 formercorpsman  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:48:52pm

re: #777 jaunte

Oh, I agree.

I think quite a bit of how they planned to model this new nation was based upon the Roman and Greek Empires.

It was evident that most were Christian, or at the very least, acknowledged the nobility in Judeo/Christian social constructs.

After dealing with the King, and his version of religion, it would be a perfect primer for how they managed.

798 solomonpanting  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:48:55pm

-ID has no place in the science classroom
-The Theory of Evolution does not negate a belief in God
-What is the difference between one who believes in God's existence and an atheist? The former believes there is a God. The later knows there is no God. Who is more open minded?

(I hear fireworks)

799 curdie  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:49:16pm

Charles' obsession with ID has blinded him to the larger issues.

The fact that a belief system is atheistic does not mean it is not a religion. Some forms of Buddhism, Confucianism, ancestor worship, etc. are atheistic. They all, including the atheism professed by some of the commenters here, are attempts to answer the Big Questions - Who are we? Why are we here? How should we live?

Examples of how atheists might answer these questions are, "We are mechanisms which are the products of matter, energy, and random processes, and we must all use reason to determine how we should live." Some atheists want us to accept these religious ideas as self-evident, but they are no more so than the idea that, "all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Education and science are always permeated with religion. Religion determines what we consider worth teaching or researching, and not so innocently, it works through our imperfect nature to generate our biases. I'm sure that most here would agree this is what we see happening in the area of Global Warming (or is it Climate Change?). The idea of "religious neutrality" in schools is a myth.

The real question for both conservatives and (classical) liberals is whether it advances the goals of liberty, freedom, and education for our schools to be run by a government monopoly. First, since the institution of democratic control always and necessarily works through legislation and bureaucracy, quality, agility and customer orientation are going to suffer in a government-run school system. The only guarantee in a democratic system is the right to attempt to have your desires prevail, not to actually have them prevail. A market system is much better at satisfying people's desires.

Second, since schools are necessarily saturated with religion, the fact that our public schools are run by the government is an automatic violation of the establishment cause of the First Amendment. In fact, the origin of the "common school" was largely an attempt by the then-dominant Protestant establishment to forcibly indoctrinate hordes of lower-class Irish Catholic immigrants using their own tax contributions. This misuse of raw state power did not escape the notice of its intended patients, who set up their own school system, effectively paying twice for their children's education.

The same attempt at indoctrination is still in effect today, only now the dominant religion is secular progressivism. If Charles wants to get upset about something, I suggest that our government monopoly bureaucratic school system is a much more worthy threat than ID.

800 swamprat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:49:43pm

So far, no pie-fight(aka flame war) The thread is still young!

801 solomonpanting  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:49:47pm

re: #739 Salamantis

That's the thing about self-conscious awareness; it permits us to choose to act in ways that are contrary to our instincts.


Yep. Unlike chimps and other "moral" animals.

802 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:50:58pm

I'll never forget the night I sat around discussing politics with my Lebanese muslim friend, and I asked him if he could have a discussion like the one we were having back in Lebanon. He told me, "no". I asked, "Even with your family?" He said that for all he knew, it could be his brother that would turn him in.

The running conversations on this thread reminds me of that.

God Bless America and Happy Independence Day!

803 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:51:02pm

re: #346 Killian Bundy

Well, duh. Again, where is that currently happening?

/trust me, the ACLU wants to know, name names

Sal: It can happen right now, in Louisiana, since Bobby Jindal signed a law permitting it. And I sincerely hope and expect that the ACLU is waiting for it to begin with suit in hand.

804 Mich-again  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:51:03pm

re: #782 Summer

I see no difference between believing in God and believing in faeries.

Again you avoid the point. Belief in God is logically no different than belief in no God. Neither side can prove anything so but each holds on to what they believe. And I don't care what you think one way or the other. But the sanctimonious BS that atheism is somehow more logically correct than the belief in a creator is nonsense.

But go ahead and keep talking about faeries or leprechauns or whatever if it makes you feel smarter. But you are in over your head.

805 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:51:44pm

re: #675 MandyManners

re: #678 MandyManners
Hi Mandy!
Sorry for what?

I was joking also,

I usually am

Ha Ha, I never can be serious for long

I hope that makes LGF a bit entertaining.

Good night dear

806 Mich-again  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:53:42pm

re: #792 joecitizen

on 2md (or 3rd?) thought, Summer is winnin'...

Why Joe?

807 jaunte  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:53:45pm

re: #799 curdie

Describing an interest in science education and a subterfuge to change the taching standards via political pressure as "obsession' is simply inaccurate.

808 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:53:57pm

re: #791 Killgore Trout

Yup, it was addressed in the video Charles linked to.

/except their extra chromosome pair hasn't "fused" yet, so they're not human

809 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:53:59pm

re: #804 Mich-again

Again you avoid the point. Belief in God is logically no different than belief in no God. Neither side can prove anything so but each holds on to what they believe. And I don't care what you think one way or the other. But the sanctimonious BS that atheism is somehow more logically correct than the belief in a creator is nonsense.

But go ahead and keep talking about faeries or leprechauns or whatever if it makes you feel smarter. But you are in over your head.

Mitch, you are getting your butt handed to you.
Belief in Leprechauns is logically no different than belief in no Leprechauns.
Is that a true statement?

810 Kulhwch  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:54:00pm

re: #415 FreedomNeocon

One of Charles more useless obsessions...

At the risk of sounding school-yardish ...

}:P     [ ... takes one to know one.]

811 jaunte  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:54:03pm

pimf/teaching

812 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:54:47pm

re: #804 Mich-again

. . . But the sanctimonious BS that atheism is somehow more logically correct than the belief in a creator is nonsense. . . .

Summer does seem, to me, to be trying to convert folks, with the same level of enthusiasm as the missionaries who came by my house last week.

813 Wendya  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:55:11pm

re: #769 Sharmuta

I agree- very underhanded and disingenuous.

It's like Thanos mentioned- what part of "Thou shall not bear False Witness" did these Christians miss?

Apparently, they're practicing their own version of Taqiyya.

814 Dianna  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:56:19pm

Hi, lizards.

It was too cold for me up on the hill, so I came down from watching fireworks. I was also fleeing from the Saga of Poor Lost Mikey, a friend of friends whose negative sense of direction rivals my own.

How's things here?

815 hazzyday  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:56:27pm

re: #111 mama winger

Are you saying that science ultimately brings one to atheism?

I don't think any society should be formed with a basis of atheisism. It has the same issues ID does. Atheisism has a hard time allowing for dissent when it is in control. Forming a society on a Judeo-Christian foundation is currently our best most humane way of living with people of diverse opinions. Sure some of the worshippers are neanderthals, but the arguements should not be formed around them.

Science maybe should declare in all textbooks that Science is only about the known universe. It addresses nothing of the unknown. Discussions of the unknown would be supernatural. As I understand this now, the theory concept of Science is about nature, not about super nature. If there is an unknown part of nature. It is super.

A common concept in geometry is parallelism. If you are of nature and were created. Then it is more likely than not that nature was also created. Creation would be something that encompasses all we know. Assigning creation as a male deity is a method of convienience and making a point about the creative principle. Which can not act alone.

All in all, I think religions need to mature more and rely more on allregorical messages rather than literal ones. And atheisist's are probably making a mistake with their life on the same level that the ID people are. Judging them though brings judgement and change.

816 ggt  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:56:30pm

re: #806 Mich-again

What's the prize?

817 Mich-again  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:56:37pm

re: #787 theatheistjew

None have a blind faith there is no God. We all acknowledge that there is no evidence for a God.

I accept the fact that there is no evidence of a God. And I also accept there is no evidence of no God. You are flat wrong to say that no atheists have a blind faith there is no God. Who made you their spokesperson?

818 joecitizen  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:57:25pm

re: #806 Mich-again

Why Joe?


because logic and rationality rule...and you sunk to the low depths of, well , skankiness calling .

819 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:58:13pm

re: #798 solomonpanting

Just as I read that post, several blocks away came a humungous air-burst firework that rattled my windows.

820 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:59:02pm

re: #805 Ojoe

re: #678 MandyManners
Hi Mandy!
Sorry for what?

I was joking also,

I usually am

Ha Ha, I never can be serious for long

I hope that makes LGF a bit entertaining.

Good night dear

*whack*

821 Mich-again  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:59:09pm

re: #809 theatheistjew

First, there is no Mitch.

Second, I don't care about Leprechauns. I have already said that no? My point is that absent of any facts contrary, the blind faith in God is logically the same as blind faith in no God.

822 finnagain  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:59:10pm

re: #643 Mich-again

Never heard of Female Infanticide? If that isn't killing some offspring because they're not 'useful' to the family and showing preference to others...

823 ggt  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 9:59:42pm

re: #809 theatheistjew

Forgive me, but I only had a couple semesters of Logic, many, many years ago. I am truly confused.

I thought statements could only be proved "valid" or "sound"?

Then again, I was stoned most of those years. Somehow managed to get good grades tho :)

824 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 10:00:30pm

re: #817 Mich-again

I accept the fact that there is no evidence of a God. And I also accept there is no evidence of no God. You are flat wrong to say that no atheists have a blind faith there is no God. Who made you their spokesperson?


I'm sure there are some atheists who have blind faith that there is no God.
But that is not true of any of the ones I know on the internet.
They acknowledge that there is no evidence for God, and some conclude that there should be tons of evidence and the fact there is none leads them to hypothesize that the probability that God exists is as close to zero as humanly possible.

825 Dianna  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 10:00:43pm

re: #823 ggt

I remember that a syllogism could be valid, but not be true.

826 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 10:00:45pm

re: #822 finnagain

Never heard of Female Infanticide? If that isn't killing some offspring because they're not 'useful' to the family and showing preference to others...

Good point.

827 Summer  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 10:00:59pm

re: #792 joecitizen

Thanks, but Summer actually has to go and attend an event in Second Life now where she promised to be at a certain time. =)

I'm gonna stop arguing this point right now. This thread wasn't about Atheism, and that's what every ID proponent tries to turn it into. It's a dumbass argument to try to give cover to a dumbass agenda. ID is religiously based, and that means it isn't supposed to be in the science classroom. That's all. That's the whole point of that trial. It isn't my fault that the trial also exposed the ID side as a bunch of liars, connivers, and just plain stupid people with a dumbass agenda. Blame them and quit blaming us atheists.

We're not a religious group, the Constitution doesn't allow teaching religion in science class, Science has never accepted "God did it" as an acceptable scientific explanation for anything, and anyone who thinks that ID is about anything other than religious extremism being pushed into the classroom is misinformed or lying to themselves.

That's all this is about. That's the entire point of that trial.

Later. =)

P.S. I make faerie wings and magical sparkles in SL...and I'm famous for it. One reason I do that in SL is because it's fun...but I don't think it's real. Get it? I know it's not. I don't say anyone else is going to BURN IN HELL for not thinking it is real. I don't think they're bad people for not "believing" that my faerie wings and magical dust are real...and I don't tell people it gives me moral guidance to think it all is real. =)

828 formercorpsman  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 10:02:45pm

re: #827 Summer

No condescension there.

829 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 10:02:53pm

re: #821 Mich-again

First, there is no Mitch.

Second, I don't care about Leprechauns. I have already said that no? My point is that absent of any facts contrary, the blind faith in God is logically the same as blind faith in no God.

You said it but it is gibberish. I don't care that you don't care about Leprechauns. The example is valid. Answer the question I asked you. If you substitute Leprechauns in your statement instead of God, is it blind faith not to believe in Leprechauns. YES or NO.

830 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 10:03:32pm

re: #401 shanec99

In my book a pre hominid is not a monkey... it is a pre human hominid. A different being.

Different brain capacity, different ability to learn, different ability to learn speech.

Created different dwellings, farmed and domesticated annimals.

Just different.

Sal: By the same token, it would be a pre-chimpanzee hominid...or a bit further back, a pre-gorilla hominid...or a bit further back than that, a pre-orangutan hominid...;~) And no, the common ancestors weren't building houses, farming or domesticating animals that far back.

831 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 10:03:35pm

re: #821 Mich-again

Leprechauns are one thing, and Faeries are another.

My tomcat, I suspect he's Finvarra, when I'm not looking at him.

Good Night All.

832 formercorpsman  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 10:04:00pm

re: #831 Ojoe

Me too.

833 Wendya  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 10:04:00pm

re: #815 hazzyday


Science maybe should declare in all textbooks that Science is only about the known universe. It addresses nothing of the unknown. Discussions of the unknown would be supernatural.

If we need to tell high school students that science deals with the natural world vs the supernatural world, we're in a world of hurt.

That's something that used to be crystal clear.

834 Quintus_Arius  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 10:04:15pm

If this is the best that LGF can do, it's time to 'cut and run'..

/QA Out

835 finnagain  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 10:04:37pm

re: #798 solomonpanting

Wrong.

The difference between a theist and an atheist is that a theist believes and/or "knows" that there is a god, while an atheist either does not believe that there is or believes and/or "knows" that there is not.

Theism is, literally, the belief in a God or Gods.
A-theism is, literally, a lack thereof. Period. Full stop.

Agnostic theism and agnostic a-theism (a-gnosis meaning literally without knowledge) are both quite possible. Between "I believe there is" and "I believe there is not" is, simply "I do not believe that there is."

Atheism is a belief in the same way that baldness is a color of hair.

Some atheists then go on to believe that there is not a God, but a belief in the nonexistence of God is not the defining characteristic of a-theism. Lack of belief is.

836 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 10:05:02pm

There are many things we do not know, and our human understanding has its limits.

Good Night, probably this time for real,

but I'm not sure.

837 solomonpanting  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 10:05:29pm

re: #819 Noam Sayin'

Just as I read that post, several blocks away came a humungous air-burst firework that rattled my windows.

I imagine the neighborhood pets went beserk.
I intended the "fireworks" comment as a double entendre.
;)

838 Mich-again  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 10:08:17pm

re: #824 theatheistjew

In 787 you posted this..

I'm a member of Raving Atheists and the Atheist blog roll (over 650 blogs).
None have a blind faith there is no God.

but in 824 you posted this..

I'm sure there are some atheists who have blind faith that there is no God.

So apparently there are some atheists out there with blind faith, but none in the 650 members of your blog roll. How the heck do you know all that? You are just spouting nonsense.

839 Bill Jefferson  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 10:09:22pm

Hey Charles, time to give Google due credit for doing right: They have a "Happy 4th of July" (yes, it could say "Independence Day," but I won't quibble, at least not non-parenthetically). The colors: Red, white, and blue. (Google.fr is highlighting the start of the Tour de France.)

840 Mich-again  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 10:12:00pm

re: #835 finnagain

Pure obfuscation there. The true definition of atheism is actually simple. The doctrine or belief that there is no God.

Your extended version of the definition is telling.

841 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 10:12:25pm

re: #838 Mich-again

None that I know of. I imagine there are some people who say they don't believe in God but give no reason. That would be blind faith.

Now let me ask you this question again. Do you believe in Leprechauns? Yes or No. I assume you will say no. Why not?
Now is it a position of blind faith that you don't believe in Leprechauns?
Are these two statements equal in blind faith?:
I believe in Leprechauns. I don't believe in Leprechauns.

842 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 10:12:52pm

re: #440 shanec99

Ok call a jackass a thoroughbred if you chose to. Then enter the jackass into the Kentucky Derby and tell me what happens.

Brecause one annimal resembles another does not mean they are the same.

They have different characteristics that go well beyond simple physical resemblance.

Again. My ancestors were not monkeys... if you insist that yours were... then good for you... and at this point I am begining to believe that your ancestors may have been monkeys, you have been that convincing.

But mine were not... they were hominids, not monkeys.

Sal: Don't you even know that horses and donkeys can interbreed? That's where mules come from. Of course, mules are sterile...

843 Mich-again  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 10:13:30pm