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The Defeat of 'Intelligent Design' in Pennsylvania

Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 4:41:02 pm PDT

Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District is a landmark case in the 150-Year Creationism War. The Dover School District voted in late 2004 to require the teaching of “intelligent design” as an alternative to the scientific theory of evolution (heavily influenced by the Discovery Institute’s propaganda), and they were promptly sued by a group of eleven outraged parents.

The resulting decision was an utter defeat for the intelligent design shills; star witness Michael Behe was forced to admit under cross examination that there are no peer-reviewed articles by ID advocates, and that the definition of “scientific theory” he was attempting to promote was so vague it could also be applied to astrology. (Despite this crushing blow, the ID movement refuses to go quietly into that dark night.)

The judge in the case, John E. Jones III, a Republican appointed by George W. Bush, ruled that the school district’s policy was unconstitutional, and issued a 139 page decision (available here) that’s remarkable for the conclusions it reaches about the origins and nature of the “intelligent design” movement, and very harsh in its criticism of the groups and individuals who promote it.

Aspects of the judge’s decision bear directly on recent discussions on these issues at LGF; here are some of the more interesting quotes:

“For the reasons that follow, we conclude that the religious nature of ID [intelligent design] would be readily apparent to an objective observer, adult or child” (page 24)

“A significant aspect of the IDM [intelligent design movement] is that despite Defendants’ protestations to the contrary, it describes ID as a religious argument. In that vein, the writings of leading ID proponents reveal that the designer postulated by their argument is the God of Christianity.” (page 26)

“The evidence at trial demonstrates that ID is nothing less than the progeny of creationism” (page 31)

“The overwhelming evidence at trial established that ID is a religious view, a mere re-labeling of creationism, and not a scientific theory.” (page 43)

“Throughout the trial and in various submissions to the Court, Defendants vigorously argue that the reading of the statement is not “teaching” ID but instead is merely “making students aware of it.” In fact, one consistency among the Dover School Board members’ testimony, which was marked by selective memories and outright lies under oath, as will be discussed in more detail below, is that they did not think they needed to be knowledgeable about ID because it was not being taught to the students. We disagree.” (footnote 7 on page 46)

“After a searching review of the record and applicable caselaw, we find that while ID arguments may be true, a proposition on which the Court takes no position, ID is not science. We find that ID fails on three different levels, any one of which is sufficient to preclude a determination that ID is science. They are: (1) ID violates the centuries-old ground rules of science by invoking and permitting supernatural causation; (2) the argument of irreducible complexity, central to ID, employs the same flawed and illogical contrived dualism that doomed creation science in the 1980’s; and (3) ID’s negative attacks on evolution have been refuted by the scientific community.” (page 64)

“[T]he one textbook [Pandas] to which the Dover ID Policy directs students contains outdated concepts and flawed science, as recognized by even the defense experts in this case.” (pages 86–87)

ID’s backers have sought to avoid the scientific scrutiny which we have now determined that it cannot withstand by advocating that the controversy, but not ID itself, should be taught in science class. This tactic is at best disingenuous, and at worst a canard. The goal of the IDM is not to encourage critical thought, but to foment a revolution which would supplant evolutionary theory with ID.” (page 89)

“Accordingly, we find that the secular purposes claimed by the Board amount to a pretext for the Board’s real purpose, which was to promote religion in the public school classroom, in violation of the Establishment Clause.” (page 132)

In his Conclusion on pages 136–138 of 139 of this decision he writes:

The proper application of both the endorsement and Lemon tests to the facts of this case makes it abundantly clear that the Board’s ID Policy violates the Establishment Clause. In making this determination, we have addressed the seminal question of whether ID is science. We have concluded that it is not, and moreover that ID cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents. [...]

The citizens of the Dover area were poorly served by the members of the Board who voted for the ID Policy. It is ironic that several of these individuals, who so staunchly and proudly touted their religious convictions in public, would time and again lie to cover their tracks and disguise the real purpose behind the ID Policy. With that said, we do not question that many of the leading advocates of ID have bona fide and deeply held beliefs which drive their scholarly endeavors. Nor do we controvert that ID should continue to be studied, debated, and discussed. As stated, our conclusion today is that it is unconstitutional to teach ID as an alternative to evolution in a public school science classroom. [...]

Those who disagree with our holding will likely mark it as the product of an activist judge. If so, they will have erred as this is manifestly not an activist Court. Rather, this case came to us as the result of the activism of an ill-informed faction on a school board, aided by a national public interest law firm eager to find a constitutional test case on ID, who in combination drove the Board to adopt an imprudent and ultimately unconstitutional policy. The breathtaking inanity of the Board’s decision is evident when considered against the factual backdrop which has now been fully revealed through this trial. The students, parents, and teachers of the Dover Area School District deserved better than to be dragged into this legal maelstrom, with its resulting utter waste of monetary and personal resources.

UPDATE at 7/4/08 5:09:00 pm:

Here’s a very good PBS Nova show about the Dover School District controversy:

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1258 comments

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1 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 4:44:09pm

Any takers?

Walter in Golden, Co.

2 Da_Beerfreak  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 4:45:04pm

'Pennsylvania tosses 'Intelligent Design' under the bus!

3 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 4:45:17pm

Excellent! The mobys will get here just in time for the barbeque.

4 macintush  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 4:45:40pm
5 doriangrey  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 4:45:45pm

Man Charles is milking ID until the proverbial cow is giving powdered milk........

6 MacGregor  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 4:46:02pm

And I was told there ain't no sanity clause!

7 Charles  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 4:46:06pm

Ow! Ow! Two dings already.

8 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 4:47:19pm

re: #5 doriangrey

Man Charles is milking ID until the proverbial cow is giving powdered milk........


Your point? It's his blog.

Walter in Golden, Co.

9 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 4:49:28pm

Louisiana Will Face Lawsuit If New Law Brings Religion Into Public School Science Classes, Says Americans United

The Louisiana House of Representatives today approved a measure that opens the door to teaching creationism in public schools, an action that is likely to spark litigation, says Americans United for Separation of Church and State.

Approved by a 94-3 vote, the so-called “Science Education Act” (SB 733) allows public school teachers to use “supplemental materials” when discussing evolution.

Americans United and other groups contend that those “supplemental materials” are likely to be anti-evolution books, DVDs and other items produced by fundamentalist Christian ministries. The measure is being pushed by the Louisiana Family Forum, the Discovery Institute and other Religious Right forces.

“It’s time for Louisiana to step into the 21st century and stop trying to teach religion in public schools,” said the Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United. “Laws like this are an embarrassment.”

Lynn noted that Louisiana legislators have repeatedly tried to water down the teaching of evolution. In the 1980s, the state passed a law mandating “balanced treatment” between evolution and creationism. The measure was declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in 1987. Some parishes in Louisiana have voted to paste “disclaimers” in science books, casting doubt on evolution.

“If this new law is used to promote religion in Louisiana public schools, I can guarantee there will be legal action,” Lynn said. “Louisiana students deserve better, and Louisiana taxpayers should not have their money squandered on this losing effort.”

Americans United and allied organizations successfully brought a lawsuit against the teaching of “intelligent design” creationism in Dover, Pa., public schools in 2005. That case ended with the Dover school board being required to pay significant legal fees.

/before people get all hot and bothered that the ID/Creationism movement is going unchecked in this country

10 tristan  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 4:50:09pm

The transcript is an interesting read when Behe is on the stand. Not only does he admit to the above, he even comes up with an empirical experiment to disprove ID that he would be qualified to run, but refuses to do so.

Behe's a real piece of work.

11 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 4:50:12pm

re: #7 Charles

Ow! Ow! Two dings already.

If I can't have multiple up-dingys, can I have a BIGGER ... uh, no, I better not ask it that way.

12 Gang of One  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 4:50:17pm

Let the fireworks begin.

13 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 4:52:30pm

Heeerrreee moby.
Moby moby moby.
Heeeerrreee moby.
I haven't started fixing supper yet.

14 Charles  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 4:54:34pm

Creationist William Dembski mocked this decision in a weird Flash animation, in which he supplied the voice of Judge Jones and made grunting and farting noises.

[Link: www.overwhelmingevidence.com...]

15 WhiteRasta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 4:55:23pm

Here is a good reason NOT to bring religion into schools:

[Link: uk.news.yahoo.com...]

16 solomonpanting  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 4:56:07pm

re: #14 Charles

William Dembski mocked this decision in a weird Flash animation, in which he supplied the voice of Judge Jones and made farting noises.

[Link: www.overwhelmingevidence.com...]

The noises sound more like pig grunts.

17 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 4:56:27pm

Ken Miller explains exactly why intelligent design was defeated in Dover.
This is a long must video available on Youtube.
Remember kiddies, Ken Miller is a Catholic and a great scientist all in one.
The video starts with a prayer. It is the only time I've found a prayer somewhat bearable, because of the content that followed.
Honestly, watch the video, you will learn a lot unless you are a biologist.

18 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 4:56:35pm

And before anyone tries to claim Judge Jones "copied" the ACLU on this- the material the DI supporters point to as being "copied" is deposition testimony.

19 JohnnyReb  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 4:59:16pm

The overwhelming evidence at trial established that ID is a religious view, a mere re-labeling of creationism, and not a scientific theory.

That is how anyone tries to get something through the courts. Name it something it isn't and presto chango.......it has a different name but is the same thing. But it sounds better.

20 Summer  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 4:59:37pm

PBS Nova (or maybe Frontline, I forgot) did a great piece on the whole story behind the trial, through the trial, and the effect thereafter. If you can find it online at their site, I'd check it out. It was very well done and explained all the issues very carefully. =)

21 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:00:04pm

re: #9 Killian Bundy

My understanding is that they have to wait until the plan is implemented and a teacher has to introduce ID/creationist material before they can sue. This whole thing is going to be a giant waste of money.

22 Summer  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:00:37pm

Just found it. It was Nova:

[Link: www.pbs.org...]

You can watch it free online at their site. Very worthwhile.

23 littleO  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:01:09pm

I stated before that it doesn't matter whether ID is taught in our schools, or not. After all, who is going to teach it!
This is , however, unlaudable because opposition needed to rely upon the courts for what some consider to serious a topic to be left to the voters, or amaeters.
The citizens of this country should be allowed to tell legistlatures the laws they want.
States should be allowed to enact they, and their citizens feel are best for them.
Evolutionist are far off in their fear of common people.

24 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:01:51pm
25 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:02:15pm

re: #22 Summer
I saw it. It was very well done. It made scientists look like scientists and creationists look like creationists.

26 JohnnyReb  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:02:50pm

re: #24 Sharmuta


Check my number 19.

27 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:02:59pm

re: #19 JohnnyReb

That is how anyone tries to get something through the courts. Name it something it isn't and presto chango.......it has a different name but is the same thing. But it sounds better.

It cost them a [expletive deleted]load of attorneys fees and they went down in flames.

/and they didn't even get a lousy t-shirt

28 MacGregor  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:03:10pm

Maybe they could hire Al Gore or something. I hear he'll be available soon.

29 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:03:33pm

re: #23 littleO

Interesting- it's the DI and their Wedge Strategy that thought they could use the courts to foist ID onto the schools.

Oh- and you owe me an apology.

30 littleO  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:03:36pm

' to enact laws they, and their citizens'
thats better

31 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:04:15pm

re: #26 JohnnyReb

I did- you reminded me of that graph, so I thought I'd post it. :)

32 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:06:19pm

re: #21 Killgore Trout

My understanding is that they have to wait until the plan is implemented and a teacher has to introduce ID/creationist material before they can sue. This whole thing is going to be a giant waste of money.

Welcome to reality. They're entitled to their beliefs like everyone else in this country. You can't stop them, you can only hope to contain them.

/we know one thing, the outcome is certain, they'll lose

33 Summer  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:06:37pm

re: #25 theatheistjew

Yea, I think people who go on about how ID is a valid scientific argument should watch that show. In fact, I think anyone who argues about the decision should watch that show. It was really very good and explained every issue and how it was shot down with evidence to the contrary.

And it also showed how many of the parents who contested ID being taught in school were themselves religious Christians and thought that ID being taught was frightening and just full of lies.

34 JohnnyReb  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:08:01pm

re: #31 Sharmuta

I did- you reminded me of that graph, so I thought I'd post it. :)


Kind of like a morphing Obama isn't it?

35 Dr. Shalit  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:08:43pm

re: #7 Charles

Ow! Ow! Two dings already.

Charles -

For what it is worth, the REAL argument is clouded in metaphor. it reallly comes down to faith/belief in an "UNCAUSED CAUSE." One either has it or has not. Everything else follows from there.

-S-

36 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:10:08pm

re: #14 Charles

Creationist William Dembski mocked this decision in a weird Flash animation, in which he supplied the voice of Judge Jones and made grunting and farting noises.

[Link: www.overwhelmingevidence.com...]

How mature of them.

37 Charles  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:10:27pm

I found that Nova show at Google video -- the video is now embedded above. Looks great. Now watching.

38 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:11:48pm

re: #34 JohnnyReb

We could graph obama in the same way, after all- it looks from that graph that the DI tossed "creationism" under the bus.

39 Summer  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:12:00pm

re: #37 Charles

Yay. I got something embedded in LGF. =)

And yup, it's a very good show, Charles. Enjoy! =)

40 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:12:03pm

re: #32 Killian Bundy

/ahead of comment -- merely RE-stating the obvious

They're entitled to their beliefs like everyone else in this country.

An inalienable right -- but taught at home or in church.

41 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:15:40pm

re: #23 littleO

The citizens of this country should be allowed to tell legistlatures the laws they want.

States can't violate the constitution. That's why we have one. You aren't really going to argue against the constitution on Independence Day are you?

42 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:16:35pm

re: #40 pre-Boomer Marine brat

An inalienable right -- but taught at home or in church.

/that's how the Federal and State courts have consistently ruled in recent decades

43 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:17:05pm

re: #39 Summer

Thanks, Summer. I always enjoyed NOVA- one of the few reasons to watch PBS.

44 yehoshua  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:17:09pm

Sorry, but anything promoted by PBS -- global warming, retreat from Iraq, a Palestinian state, the theory of evolution --
should not be taken seriously.

45 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:17:27pm

re: the up and down-dings, reviews (by rational lizards) are now mixed on these ID threads. I can understand.

mikeymom, please don't let my above-posted enthusiasm for barbequed moby offend you. See Killian's 32 and my 40.

46 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:18:23pm

re: #42 Killian Bundy

/that's how the Federal and State courts have consistently ruled in recent decades

And what conscience and personal honor demand of me.

47 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:18:52pm

re: #41 Killgore Trout

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

/Article VI, Clause 2 of the United States Constitution

48 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:19:51pm

re: #36 Honorary Yooper

How mature manure of them.

Fixed your little typo there.

49 scottishbuzzsaw  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:20:33pm

A well written and reasoned decision. Excellent.

50 mama winger  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:21:20pm

re: #40 pre-Boomer Marine brat

/ahead of comment -- merely RE-stating the obvious

An inalienable right -- but taught at home or in church.

This is not entirely correct. Religion is not confined to the home or church. Religion cannot be restricted from a free society. The free expression of religion is a constitutional right. The constitutional restriction here is ,that religion shall not be established, sanctioned or taught by the State. It does not mean that religion can only be taught in the home or church. It only means that religious teaching cannot be State-sponsored.

51 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:21:30pm

re: #48 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Fixed your little typo there.

Heh. Well, they did get their degrees from the University of Toromanura. ;-)

52 Charles  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:27:10pm

re: #44 yehoshua

Sorry, but anything promoted by PBS -- global warming, retreat from Iraq, a Palestinian state, the theory of evolution --
should not be taken seriously.

Nova is often excellent. It's what PBS does well.

This video is great, by the way. Highly recommend it. Thanks for the tip, Summer.

53 Phocid  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:27:45pm

re: #44 yehoshua

Fortunately science on PBS and at the universitys has remained effectively free of political correctness.

The judge made an insightful point about the tree the ID advocates are barking up:

ID is at bottom premised upon a false dichotomy, namely, that to the extent evolutionary theory is discredited, ID is confirmed.

If IDers can't see the fundamental non-sequitur of that notion how can they claim they know anything about science?

54 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:27:55pm

It is too bad that this subject has become a political football because it is an interesting philosophical question worthy of considered discussion.

At any rate, in the over-heated discussion, it becomes very hard to see & feel the spiritual reality that just permeates everything, IMHO.

55 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:28:17pm

re: #15 WhiteRasta

Here is a good reason NOT to bring religion into schools:

[Link: uk.news.yahoo.com...]

Rasta, you know when I was at Munro we had scripture classes, all the way up to GCE O levels and there was never a problem.

Please explain to me why religious education is so wrong if it does not force kids to worship.

56 republic  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:29:22pm
"Is it the Fourth?"

-- Thomas Jefferson (evening July 3; Jefferson died the next
morning, July 4th 1826)

Reference: Thomas Jefferson: A Life, Randal (594)

57 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:29:41pm

re: #50 mama winger

religious teaching cannot be State-sponsored

VERY true!

/a history major in college

58 republic  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:30:29pm

re: #55 shanec99

Rasta, you know when I was at Munro we had scripture classes, all the way up to GCE O levels and there was never a problem.

Please explain to me why religious education is so wrong if it does not force kids to worship.

But islam is freely preached and taught in Americas public schools, and there is very little coverage of that.

59 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:33:27pm

re: #35 Dr. Shalit

Actually, I would include: faith/belief/perception of the Uncaused Cause;

If we try, we can see it, however dimly

It is reflected in creation

at least the ID types point to it

and some of the vehement evolutionists are trying to deny it

thus all the yelling

& you can see why monasteries are supposed to be silent

60 Purple Prose  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:33:33pm

re: #23 littleO

The citizens of this country should be allowed to tell legistlatures the laws they want.
States should be allowed to enact they, and their citizens feel are best for them.
Evolutionist are far off in their fear of common people.

By this argument, a school district should have the right to teach that 1+1=3, if it desires. Moreover, in this case, there wasn't even a public referendum. It was simply school board bureaucrats making the undemocratic decision to require ID to be taught as science.

But even if there were some referendum and it wasn't just a decision made by a handful of mucky mucks, put up to it by IDers eager to conduct a court experiment to see if they can get ID through when they failed with creationism (since they can't do real experiments to test ID), it would be no more justifiable to teach children ideology as science. Should kids be taught that 1+1=3 or the world is flat or Allah is the one true God, whether it's a school board acting as mavericks or the result of a referendum?

It's a slippery slope once you toss reason out the window and allow religion or any other ideology not based on facts into the classroom for whatever reason.

61 Shug  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:33:35pm

So the Pennsylvania ID movement is extinct?

Did it win a Darwin award?

62 Opilio  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:33:51pm

re: #7 Charles

Ow! Ow! Two dings already.

Speaking as the first dinger, I would like to state that dingage does not necessarily correspond to any particular view of Evolution/Creationism/ID. I can not speak for any of my fellow dingers, but I believe my views wrt I.D. are probably in close alignment with those of Charles, particularly:

  • ID is a religious view, it is not Science.
  • The teaching of ID in public schools is indefensible.

It just that, after a while, these ID threads usually devolve into the bellicose, truculent, vitriolic, and vituperative. And I wasn't in the mood for that tonight.

63 JohnnyReb  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:34:18pm

re: #55 shanec99

Rasta, you know when I was at Munro we had scripture classes, all the way up to GCE O levels and there was never a problem.

Please explain to me why religious education is so wrong if it does not force kids to worship.


Because with government, sooner or later kids will be forced to worship (observe, respect it, etc.) is one.

Just like the moment of silence thingy.

64 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:34:41pm

re: #54 Ojoe

It is too bad that this subject has become a political football because it is an interesting philosophical question worthy of considered discussion.

At any rate, in the over-heated discussion, it becomes very hard to see & feel the spiritual reality that just permeates everything, IMHO.

ID is essentially a philosophical position and should be studied as such, rather than as a scientific discipline.

The assertions of ID cannot be demonstrated with scientific tests, and until we can demonstrate the validity of ID through tests that can be reproduced under strict scientific scrutiny then we should avoid the pretense that it is science.

65 Phocid  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:35:34pm

re: #55 shanec99

66 Summer  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:35:49pm

re: #52 Charles

You're very welcome! =)

67 Phocid  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:36:52pm

re: #55 shanec99

Rasta, you know when I was at Munro we had scripture classes, all the way up to GCE O levels and there was never a problem.

Please explain to me why religious education is so wrong if it does not force kids to worship.

But that's the problem: kids were being indoctrinated in religion in a science class.

68 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:37:08pm

re: #62 Opilio

/butting in

(Understandable. See my #45)

69 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:37:55pm

re: #58 republic

But islam is freely preached and taught in Americas public schools, and there is very little coverage of that.


The basics of Islam should be taught in school. The justification of middle aged men sleeping with 9 year old girls should be exposed.

If our children are fore warned, then they are fore armed.

We should embrace knowledge, it is the best defense against the murderers who bathe themselves in ignorance.

70 republic  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:40:48pm

re: #69 shanec99

The basics of Islam should be taught in school. The justification of middle aged men sleeping with 9 year old girls should be exposed.

If our children are fore warned, then they are fore armed.

We should embrace knowledge, it is the best defense against the murderers who bathe themselves in ignorance.


But the evil that is islam is not what is taught in American public schools.

It's all unicorns eating in fields of cotton candy and baskets full of puppies and stuff.

I wonder if they teach that the koran, from cover to cover, instructs, demands of its followers to "kill the unbelievers wherever they are"?

71 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:40:56pm

re: #67 Phocid

But that's the problem: kids were being indoctrinated in religion in a science class.

Were they being indoctrinated or were they being asked to explore other possibilities?

72 HelloDare  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:42:09pm

re: #7 Charles

Ow! Ow! Two dings already.

It would be funny if you made dings count as pluses in the ID threads. Imagine the heads that would explode.

73 Charles  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:42:41pm

It's amazing what the creationists tried to pull in Dover. This video has lots of details I haven't seen before.

74 Dolphin  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:43:19pm

re: #62 Opilio

It just that, after a while, these ID threads usually devolve into the bellicose, truculent, vitriolic, and vituperative. And I wasn't in the mood for that tonight.

Agreed! 100%

75 JohnnyReb  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:44:27pm

For some reason I am seeing alot of people on here wanting ID to be taught in public school classes. Not sure why that is. Am I that out of touch?

76 Alouette  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:45:21pm

re: #52 Charles

Last week, I bought a bunch of books for my son, the Rabbi, who is very meticulous about what he allows his children (my grandkids!) to read. I got them "Hurricanes and Tornadoes," "Tornadoes," "Children's Encyclopedia of Animals," "Encyclopedia of Birdwatching," "Encyclopedia of Oceans."

He grabbed them all and read them all for himself!

He loves nature, and Creation! And if G-D created the mountains, the oceans and the animals "l'chol min al mino" (every species unto itself), that is proof of creation and evolution!

When he was a kid, we used to listen to lectures of an anti-evolution Rabbi (Avigdor Miller). We also had subscriptions to National Geographic and Scientific American. My kids (thank G-D) grew up thinking for themselves.

77 scottishbuzzsaw  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:45:33pm

Off to celebrate this amazing American Experiment with my beloved one ~ Happy 4th to you all!

78 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:46:22pm

re: #73 Charles

It's amazing what the creationists tried to pull in Dover. This video has lots of details I haven't seen before.

Have you seen the Miller video I posted on this thread? It is really enlightening to see how bad the creationist arguments are in reality. They profess things about IC and the eye, but all that stuff has been refuted by biologists, yet IDers will keep repeating the same lies over and over again.

79 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:46:32pm

re: #73 Charles

The burning of the mural is new to me, and really disturbing when one thinks of the historical analogies.

80 Shug  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:46:58pm

Can't the ID people just go to Church and discuss creationism ?

isn't that what Church is for ?


Isn't science class for..................science?

81 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:47:24pm

re: #73 Charles

It's also interesting how the science teachers fought against this. I thought the were divided on the issue.

82 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:48:04pm

re: #70 republic

the koran, from cover to cover, instructs, demands of its followers to "kill the unbelievers wherever they are"

Not quite. Not cover-to-cover. A (manufactured) principle of abrogation is used to negate earlier Surah (pro-Jewish, pro-Christian) in favor of the "jihadist" Surah of Mohammed's Medina period.

The two "sets" of Surah form an inherent contradiction in the Koran which most Muslims avoid addressing.

83 transient  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:48:32pm

re: #37 Charles

I found that Nova show at Google video -- the video is now embedded above. Looks great. Now watching.

Thanks for posting the Nova show, Charles! I no longer get TV, so I will definitely be watching this as soon as I have time!

84 WhiteRasta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:49:11pm

re: #55 shanec99

Bredda, I have a problem with making pickney kneel down to the false prophet.

85 Alouette  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:49:22pm

re: #78 theatheistjew

Have you seen the Miller video I posted on this thread?

Oh, I thought you were referring to Rabbi Avigdor Miller.

86 Charles  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:49:23pm

re: #78 theatheistjew

Have you seen the Miller video I posted on this thread?

I sure have...

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

87 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:49:27pm

re: #75 JohnnyReb

For some reason I am seeing alot of people on here wanting ID to be taught in public school classes. Not sure why that is. Am I that out of touch?

"on here" ... meaning on this thread? I don't understand.

88 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:50:03pm

re: #75 JohnnyReb
ID, Marxism etc are all ideologies that influence a large number of people.

I believe that knowing what other people believe cannot harm us.

It is ignorance that will kill us not knowledge. Knowing what the IDers believe and being able to examine their beliefs objectively and demonstrate that they have no scientific basis cannot be harmful to our children.

I say let them know the truth and move on.

89 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:50:07pm

re: #82 pre-Boomer Marine brat

DAMMIT, forgot to "quote"
PIMF

90 Opilio  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:51:06pm

re: #56 republic

"Is it the Fourth?"

-- Thomas Jefferson (evening July 3; Jefferson died the next
morning, July 4th 1826)

Probably common knowledge, but did you know that Thomas Jefferson and John Adams died within hours of one another on July 4, 1826, the nation's 50th birthday?

91 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:53:24pm

re: #80 Shug

Can't the ID people just go to Church and discuss creationism ?

isn't that what Church is for ?


Isn't science class for..................science?


School should be a place to explore ideas, even the ones we disagree with, if only because it prepares us for dealing with adults in a complex society full of divergent beliefs.

Learning about various philosophies cannot be bad. Knowledge is good and should be embraced.

92 mean Gene  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:53:57pm

After seven years of almost total focus on the GWOT it is interesting to see how people move on.
Most of the liberals I live bear have been totally oblivious about any threat to themselves or their freedom (especially the gay ones) and have been pretty much all this time.
But Robert Spencer, for one, has kept his focus.
LGF has this tag storm so you can see that the GWOT in all it's fronts is still the major focus here.
ID has only 25 threads over the last 90 days.
It just seems like more.
And somehow I expect it will be growing in the future.
I hope I'm wrong and this remains a sort of weird sideshow.

93 WhiteRasta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:54:35pm

Shane:

I have to go work early so goodnight, mi bredrin. Happy 4th of July to you and all of you Americans. G-d Bless.

94 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:55:32pm

re: #93 WhiteRasta

Shane:

I have to go work early so goodnight, mi bredrin. Happy 4th of July to you and all of you Americans. G-d Bless.


Take care brother, be safe.

See you on another day.

Did you say that you went to Wolmers boys?

95 Ford_Prefect  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:55:43pm

re: #91 shanec99

School should be a place to explore ideas, even the ones we disagree with, if only because it prepares us for dealing with adults in a complex society full of divergent beliefs.

Learning about various philosophies cannot be bad. Knowledge is good and should be embraced.

Yes, but the question then becomes should that be discussed in a science class or a philosophy class?

96 WhiteRasta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:56:03pm

re: #94 shanec99

Naah Priory. Country Club......

97 grumpy old codger  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:56:04pm

Yawn, another ID thread. Well, just remember when the imams take over all of this sort of discussion will be verboten. The origins of life will be discussed by the sort of bozo who thinks you can drive from Australia to Tasmania. and there will be no dispute.
Sort of a America Erwache moment.

98 MacGregor  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:56:07pm

re: #90 Opilio

Probably common knowledge, but did you know that Thomas Jefferson and John Adams died within hours of one another on July 4, 1826, the nation's 50th birthday?

That made for a great ending to the HBO John Adams series, which HBO is airing today.

99 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:56:45pm

re: #64 shanec99

Well yes, it shades off into religion, & isn't that the point?

100 grumpy old codger  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:56:56pm

re: #90 Opilio
Were they assassinated by agents of the Crown? Enquiring minds want to know!

101 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:57:53pm

re: #91 shanec99

ID is not science and should not be taught in a science classroom. It would be better served in a philosophy class or a class on world religions, but not a science class.

102 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:58:09pm

re: #95 Ford_Prefect

I absolutely agree with you... I do not believe ID has a place as a part of any scientific discussion.

It has a philosophical underpinning, a philosophy in part derived from Biblical teaching and should be therefore studied as part of a larger study of world philosophies.

103 guftafs  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:58:51pm

re: #80 Shug

Every major scientific discovery dealt crushing blows to the basis of religious belief: Scientific explanations based on observations ultimately remove the need for religious belief. If religionists were to succeed in countering this long-term trend, they would open the way for a re-surgence of religion.

104 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:58:57pm

re: #96 WhiteRasta

Had some cousins who went to Priory and a couple who went to Ardenne.

105 DesertSage  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 5:59:06pm

I thought this case was several years old?

Anyhow, the problem I see with these ID threads comes down to misinterpretation of what Charles is trying to present here.
As far as I can tell (after reading almost every evolution thread), Charles does not have a problem with religion or even the theistic theory of creation. He has a problem with a theory of creation that is not backed up by scientific facts. We all should have a problem with that theory of creation, whether one is deeply religious or not religious at all.

Some of the more religious people here have been deeply offended because because some of the anti-religion people have used these threads as an opportunity to ridicule the people of faith. A lot of the people of faith here believe in God wholeheartedly and also believe in the theistic form of creationism, but not the ID type of creationism. Some of these people are actual practicing scientists.
Once the anti-religious people understood that the religious people could honestly and legitimately believe in a theistic form of creation and also reject the ID type, the arguments stopped being so passionate. More people were agreeing then were arguing. It's also helped that the anti-religious people have stopped painting all creationists with a broad brush, and realized that there are many types of creationist theories....not just ID.

106 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:00:27pm

The book of Genesis was written by multiple authors countless centuries after the events described.

/words I take to heart but don't take literally

107 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:00:29pm

re: #101 Sharmuta

ID is not science and should not be taught in a science classroom. It would be better served in a philosophy class or a class on world religions, but not a science class.

Agreed.
But it also should be discussed, not ignored.

It is not science... it is a discussion of faith.

108 Opilio  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:01:34pm

re: #100 grumpy old codger

Were they assassinated by agents of the Crown? Enquiring minds want to know!

Wellllll, between the two of 'em, they were 173 years old, so I'll go with the official story of "natural" causes.

109 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:01:34pm

re: #102 shanec99

Well ID is kind of a hybrid of philosophical/religious considerations springing from observations of nature.

It is not strictly science

It needs a bigger 'box'.

110 grumpy old codger  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:02:19pm

re: #108 Opilio

You're part of the conspiracy aren't you?

111 mama winger  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:02:38pm

re: #103 guftafs

Every major scientific discovery dealt crushing blows to the basis of religious belief: Scientific explanations based on observations ultimately remove the need for religious belief. If religionists were to succeed in countering this long-term trend, they would open the way for a re-surgence of religion.

Are you saying that science ultimately brings one to atheism?

112 lifeofthemind  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:03:59pm

re: #98 MacGregor

re: #90 Opilio

Probably common knowledge, but did you know that Thomas Jefferson and John Adams died within hours of one another on July 4, 1826, the nation's 50th birthday?

That made for a great ending to the HBO John Adams series, which HBO is airing today.

You mean it was another Hollywood hit job? Is there anything a producer won't stoop to? Was Karl Rove or Dick Morris in on it? Inquiring minds and all.

113 Opilio  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:04:27pm

re: #110 grumpy old codger

You're part of the conspiracy aren't you?

I prefer to think that the conspiracy is part of me.

114 mean Gene  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:05:25pm

re: #105 DesertSage

IF each one of these threads started with a little dictionary, so we all were using the same words and MEANING the same thing when we did, then I would begin to take part.
But there never has been an agreement on definitions of terms.
I understand Charles is not anti-religious.
But what do all of these ''code words" mean?
A couple of these threads ago, or maybe on one of the ''science'' links, the term ''critical thinking" was called a ''code word'' for ID.
What?
I just need a glossary before diving in.

115 FloatingRock  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:05:28pm
The Defeat of 'Intelligent Design' in Pennsylvania


Hallelujah!

116 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:06:42pm

re: #111 mama winger

Gee I would report from my own life (re No. 103 guftafs) that every scientific discovery increases my awe of creation, and respect for the Creator.

It is funny how scientific discoveries can have such opposite effects, one would think the discoveries are pushing ahead some predispositions here.

At any rate, we as humans seem to be constructed to need religion.

117 DesertSage  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:07:01pm

re: #111 mama winger

Are you saying that science ultimately brings one to atheism?

That's what I'd like to know. Is he saying that one cannot have deeply held religious beliefs and believe in science?

Is he saying that science is now a province of atheism? That would be a big surprise to a lot of darn good scientists.

118 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:07:20pm

re: #109 Ojoe

Well ID is kind of a hybrid of philosophical/religious considerations springing from observations of nature.

It is not strictly science

It needs a bigger 'box'.

Perhaps. It is one of these religious ideas that help people to erect a bridge between what their core religious beliefs are, and what the secular world tells them every day.

It is only dangerous if we allow its proponents to make a claim about it that it cannot possibly deliver.

It is not science and should not be allowed to masquerade as such, but people should be allowed to explore it.

119 mama winger  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:07:39pm

re: #116 Ojoe

re: #117 DesertSage

I agree.

120 republic  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:08:08pm

re: #90 Opilio

Probably common knowledge, but did you know that Thomas Jefferson and John Adams died within hours of one another on July 4, 1826, the nation's 50th birthday?

"Thomas Jefferson still lives."

-- John Adams (after waking momentarily, afternoon July 4 1826)

Reference: The Works of John Adams, C.F. Adams, ed., vol. 1 (636)

121 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:08:30pm

re: #105 DesertSage

HEAR HEAR!

122 yehoshua  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:08:57pm

re: #90 Opilio

My favorite Jefferson quote:

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it’s natural manure."

It takes a man possessed of that rare combination of deep emotion, sharp intellect, and an agricultural bent to make such a statement.

123 guftafs  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:09:48pm

re: #111 mama winger

Are you saying that science ultimately brings one to atheism?

Not necessarily. Naturally there will always be religious people, even people of otherwise excellent character. But religion lost out to rational inquiry as a driving force in the West sometime around the discovery of the laws of gravitation by Newton. With Newton religion was no longer needed to explain the heavens. With Darwin religion was no longer needed to explain the variety of life. So you where science ultimately leads the discerning thinker?

124 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:10:01pm

re: #118 shanec99

It is one of these religious ideas that help people to erect a bridge between what their core religious beliefs are, and what the secular world tells them every day.

As such it might be very useful

It is too bad it has become such a football

It needs to be presented better

IMHO

125 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:10:43pm

re: #107 shanec99

Agreed.
But it also should be discussed, not ignored.

It is not science... it is a discussion of faith.

When I was growing up, these things were discussed- at home, with my parents.

126 tunnelrat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:11:24pm

You know... ID may seem like a quaint, old fashioned concept which no longer holds up in the face of science, but nobody can prove evoloution either. To many people the concept of our existence being a product of chance is hard to believe too. Sorry folks, but I just do not believe that everything we see just "happened" or that we evolved from monkeys. To me that is ridiculous!

127 guftafs  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:11:54pm

re: #123 guftafs

... that came out wrong. I meant people of "excellent character", not "otherwise excellent character" ...

128 mama winger  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:11:55pm

re: #123 guftafs

Naturally there will always be religious people, even people of otherwise excellent character.

Have a nice evening, guftafs.

Happy 4th of July, everyone.

God bless out troops !

129 MacGregor  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:12:36pm

re: #112 lifeofthemind

You mean it was another Hollywood hit job? Is there anything a producer won't stoop to? Was Karl Rove or Dick Morris in on it? Inquiring minds and all.

That one seemed pretty much on the up and up - although I heard some conservatives complained.

130 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:12:45pm

Which ID hypothesis do they want to teach in science, and what would the text book look like?

Here are seven different creationist views:
Theistic Evolution:
Evolution by natural processes is the tool God used

Evolutionary Creationism:
Adam and Eve were the first spiritually aware humans

Progressive Creationism:
Humans were a special creation event

Day-Age Creationism:
Six days of creation were six geological epochs

Gap Creationism:
4.5 billion year gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2

Omphalism:
Earth was created with the appearance of age and of evolution

Young Earth Fundamentalism:
Invented versions of all natural sciences to explain Earth's age as 6,000 years

131 dm60462  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:13:09pm

Glaring error on the NOVA piece - the statement that there is a rift between science and Scripture. As a devout Catholic and a scientist, I see no conflict between the two. While God clearly designed the Universe, He also gave us the intelligence to understand the universe through science. Both the Creation and the ability to understand it through science are His gifts.

132 Summer  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:13:22pm

re: #126 tunnelrat

You know... ID may seem like a quaint, old fashioned concept which no longer holds up in the face of science, but nobody can prove evoloution either. To many people the concept of our existence being a product of chance is hard to believe too. Sorry folks, but I just do not believe that everything we see just "happened" or that we evolved from monkeys. To me that is ridiculous!

You really...really don't understand Evolution.

133 guftafs  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:13:46pm

re: #128 mama winger

Have a nice evening, guftafs.

Happy 4th of July, everyone.

God bless out troops !

Same to you, mama.

134 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:14:03pm

re: #123 guftafs

Not necessarily. Naturally there will always be religious people, even people of otherwise excellent character. But religion lost out to rational inquiry as a driving force in the West sometime around the discovery of the laws of gravitation by Newton. With Newton religion was no longer needed to explain the heavens. With Darwin religion was no longer needed to explain the variety of life. So you where science ultimately leads the discerning thinker?

Interesting point of view, but I beg to differ.

Religion teaches people how to get along.

It provides a grounding in morality and gives a cohesion necessary for the functioning of a modern complex society.

A society without laws based in religious teaching would be a dangerous place to live in because it would not recognize the principle of right and wrong so frequently articulated in the Scriptures.

135 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:14:44pm

re: #103 guftafs

Every major scientific discovery dealt crushing blows to the basis of religious belief: Scientific explanations based on observations ultimately remove the need for religious belief. If religionists were to succeed in countering this long-term trend, they would open the way for a re-surgence of religion.

My (deep-rooted, and Christian) faith isn't affected a solitary whit by science.

What you seem to be stating is Jean Jacques Rousseau's assumption that the development of Man's intellectual capacities would make religion unnecessary.

136 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:15:53pm

re: #118 shanec99

It is not science and should not be allowed to masquerade as such, but people should be allowed to explore it.

No one is stopping anyone from considering faith in their lives along side science. Many of us simply draw the line at this in public schools where one person's ideas may not be to the liking of the parents of the children. This is a slippery slope, and it's an area that I would want control over as a parent, and not abdicate to the schools.

137 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:15:55pm

re: #115 FloatingRock

Hallelujah!

LOL

138 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:15:59pm

re: #134 shanec99


A society without laws based in religious teaching would be a dangerous place to live in because it would not recognize the principle of right and wrong so frequently articulated in the Scriptures.


It's a common misconception that religion is required for morality.

139 Cartman  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:16:08pm

re: #127 guftafs

... that came out wrong. I meant people of "excellent character", not "otherwise excellent character" ...

How very magnanimous of you.

140 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:16:25pm

How the universe appears to you depends upon who you are with

The mystic Julian of Norwich was with God at one point

He let her hold this little round thing in her hand

the size of a hazlenut

What is this she asked

It is all that is made was the reply

She said she was amazed it did not vanish, it was so small

God said that it lasts, and ever shall last because he loved it.


I think this is true

I would not try to convince school kids in a science class about this, however;

And some things are bigger than science.

141 WitchDoctor  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:16:49pm

The debate is over.

To deny intelligent design is to deny the holocaust.

Happy Independence day!

/SARC

142 yehoshua  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:16:55pm

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it’s natural manure."
--- Thomas Jefferson
This statement makes you realize that tyranny is no less constant than liberty. Also, liberty is not stagnant but must constantly grow in order to reamin. If Jefferson were alive today, he would be telling us that our liberty depends on destroying the tyrants that exist in this world -- whether in the Middle East, Zimbabwe, or North Korea.

143 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:16:57pm

re: #134 shanec99

Interesting point of view, but I beg to differ.

Religion teaches people how to get along.

It provides a grounding in morality and gives a cohesion necessary for the functioning of a modern complex society.

A society without laws based in religious teaching would be a dangerous place to live in because it would not recognize the principle of right and wrong so frequently articulated in the Scriptures.

Wrong. Many societies have functioned throughout history without the bible being the basis for the laws. Biblical laws are just common sense any way put down on paper by man for man and God is added to give it more oomph.

144 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:18:16pm

re: #126 tunnelrat

You know... ID may seem like a quaint, old fashioned concept which no longer holds up in the face of science, but nobody can prove evolution either. To many people the concept of our existence being a product of chance is hard to believe too. Sorry folks, but I just do not believe that everything we see just "happened" or that we evolved from monkeys. To me that is ridiculous!

We did not evolve from monkeys... nor does evolution say so.
Evolution suggests that human and great apes had a common ancestor.
What I learned in anthropology suggests that modern humans evolved from an ancestor who lived in east Africa, not a monkey.

145 lifeofthemind  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:18:33pm

re: #135 pre-Boomer Marine brat

My (deep-rooted, and Christian) faith isn't affected a solitary whit by science.

What you seem to be stating is Jean Jacques Rousseau's assumption that the development of Man's intellectual capacities would make religion unnecessary.

The list of atrocities that can be traced back to M. Rousseaum and his theory of the General Will as molded by the enlightened intelligentsia, grows like kudzu.

146 Charles  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:18:50pm

Just getting to the Michael Behe section...

Refused multiple invitations from Nova...

147 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:19:22pm

re: #138 Killgore Trout

It's a common misconception that religion is required for morality.

/take San Francisco for example

148 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:19:45pm

re: #146 Charles

I'm at the same part. The Disco Institute refused to be interviewed too.

149 Buster Bunny  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:19:55pm

summing it all up.

Monkey wins, poor theology loses.

They'll be getting a banana from me in the mail.

/Banana Bunny

150 Ford_Prefect  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:20:26pm

re: #141 WitchDoctor

The debate is over.

Boy, are you on the wrong site. This a place where debate is never over.

151 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:21:01pm

re: #138 Killgore Trout

It's a common misconception that religion is required for morality.

Provide me an example of a moral society without religious underpinnings and I will agree with you.

152 guftafs  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:21:43pm

re: #135 pre-Boomer Marine brat

My (deep-rooted, and Christian) faith isn't affected a solitary whit by science.

What you seem to be stating is Jean Jacques Rousseau's assumption that the development of Man's intellectual capacities would make religion unnecessary.

I don't think man's intellectual capacities need to be further developed--they are what enabled man to go to the moon. 2,000+ years of religion did not bring us one inch closer to it. Not to denigrate religion, but think about it.

153 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:22:06pm

re: #138 Killgore Trout

It's a common misconception that religion is required for morality.

Very true, and the inverse works as well. The jihadis are a case in point of people having religion without morality.

154 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:22:12pm

re: #144 shanec99

We did not evolve from monkeys... nor does evolution say so.
Evolution suggests that human and great apes had a common ancestor.
What I learned in anthropology suggests that modern humans evolved from an ancestor who lived in east Africa, not a monkey.

Actually, chimps and humans branched off between 5 and 7 million years ago. The human branch and monkey branch branched off around 25 million years ago, so evolution does state we evolved from old world monkeys.
We even go back to sponges if you want to go back far enough, and even farther back we trace back to one celled animals.

155 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:22:43pm

re: #152 guftafs

Religion is about getting to God not to the moon

156 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:23:52pm

re: #140 Ojoe

Your mention of Julian of Norwich just spurred me over to Amazon. Ordered a copy of Revelations of Divine Love.

Thank you for the round tuit!

157 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:24:00pm

re: #143 theatheistjew

I never said the Bible was the source of all religious beliefs or the legal under pinnings of ever society's laws.

I said the scriptures, like Buddhist, Christian, Judean, Hinduism... etc.

The underpinnings of all laws come from religious teachings of these various religious philosophies.

158 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:24:25pm

re: #151 shanec99

Many Jainists and Buddhists are atheists and fine upstanding citizens. Twain, Thoreau, Einstein were all fine people. Belief in god does not make one morally superior no matter how many times you claim it.

159 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:24:26pm

re: #151 shanec99

Provide me an example of a moral society without religious underpinnings and I will agree with you.

Most ancient societies have believed in the supernatural. They couldn't explain lightning back then.
But look at the Mayans, the ancient Greeks, the Zoroastrians. They all behaved morally. Even chimps behave morally to a great extent. They must read their bibles when the cameras are off:)

160 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:24:43pm

re: #153 Honorary Yooper

Good point.

161 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:25:02pm

Can I nominate "laced with Darwinism" for a rotating title?

162 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:25:06pm

re: #156 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Julian is one of the best

163 Buster Bunny  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:25:21pm

I think somewhere in Judaic texts it talks about the world being created so god can eventually look man in the face as equals.

That seems to be where its going .. and science just propels us further in that direction.

Ignorance is assuming literals in a book that never was about that.

164 talon_262  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:25:24pm

re: #43 Sharmuta

Thanks, Summer. I always enjoyed NOVA- one of the few reasons to watch PBS.

Don't forget This Old House, The New Yankee Workshop, and the old episodes of The Joy of Painting with Bob Ross (RIP)...

;-)

165 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:25:58pm

re: #145 lifeofthemind

The list of atrocities that can be traced back to M. Rousseaum and his theory of the General Will as molded by the enlightened intelligentsia, grows like kudzu.

kudzu -- excellent comparison!

166 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:25:59pm

re: #154 theatheistjew

Actually, chimps and humans branched off between 5 and 7 million years ago. The human branch and monkey branch branched off around 25 million years ago, so evolution does state we evolved from old world monkeys.
We even go back to sponges if you want to go back far enough, and even farther back we trace back to one celled animals.

No it says a common ancestor... not monkeys.

You may think monkeys and many people believe that... but please quote one scientific document that says humans evolved from monkeys.

Common ancestor does not mean monkey.

167 MacGregor  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:26:28pm

What if the need to believe in something greater is ingrained as an evolved survival trait into our dna? Would it be unnatural to squelch such a trait? /just askin'

168 Ford_Prefect  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:26:33pm

re: #151 shanec99

Provide me an example of a moral society without religious underpinnings and I will agree with you.

While I understand your point, the fact is that no such society has ever existed because there has never been a society that didn't have some sort of predominate religion. That, however does not mean that it is not possible. I believe that it is something that may end up "evolving" in time as more scientific discovery creates more doubt in people's minds about the all-encompassing knowledge of religions.

169 DesertSage  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:27:23pm

re: #152 guftafs

I don't think man's intellectual capacities need to be further developed--they are what enabled man to go to the moon. 2,000+ years of religion did not bring us one inch closer to it. Not to denigrate religion, but think about it.

So people who believed in God and faith didn't have anything o do with the progress humankind has made over the past 2,000 years?
Is that what you're saying?

170 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:27:37pm

re: #147 Killian Bundy

/take San Francisco for example

DAMN I'm glad I didn't have a mouthful of food!

171 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:27:38pm

re: #164 talon_262

Don't forget This Old House, The New Yankee Workshop, and the old episodes of The Joy of Painting with Bob Ross (RIP)...

;-)

And that dork who makes furniture with colonial period tools.

172 marjoriemoon  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:27:45pm

re: #118 shanec99

Perhaps. It is one of these religious ideas that help people to erect a bridge between what their core religious beliefs are, and what the secular world tells them every day.

It is only dangerous if we allow its proponents to make a claim about it that it cannot possibly deliver.

It is not science and should not be allowed to masquerade as such, but people should be allowed to explore it.

What angers me as much as trying to make ID look like science, is trying to make science look unsubstantiated. "Theories" such as evolution or even gravity are not wrong or inaccurate, they are just incomplete, waiting for more science to expound on them.

This ruling will go far to keep ID out of our schools. We need it in Florida big time.

173 republic  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:28:02pm

Happy 4th of July all, you can all debate whatever you wish, I believe what I believe about things, and I don't expect anyone else to believe what I believe, nor would I ever demand that, nor judge others based on my beliefs.

It'll all work out.

Take care and be safe.

174 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:28:07pm

re: #159 theatheistjew

The Mayans, Zoroastrians etc had a group of religious beliefs. Those beliefs told established behaviors that were good and bad and they eventually became codified as laws and morality.

175 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:28:20pm
176 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:29:21pm

The Behe section is hilarious!

177 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:29:24pm

re: #151 shanec99

Provide me an example of a moral society without religious underpinnings and I will agree with you.

Confucian China

178 guftafs  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:29:28pm

re: #155 Ojoe

Religion is about getting to God not to the moon

Well, I answered to pre-Boomer marine brat question if I thought man's intellectual capacities would make religion unnecessary. I think so and showed how powerless religion is when dealing with the real world. "Getting to god" is "getting nowhere" as far as I'm concerned, since proof is severly lacking as to where god resides.

179 tunnelrat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:29:33pm

re: #154 theatheistjew

How does anybody know what happened 5, 10 or 25 million years ago? Why not 100 million years ago? Maybe 200 million years? It is impossible to prove. You are exhibiting a great deal of faith in a theory.

180 transient  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:30:56pm

Darn it, I hate having to work when there's a good evo thread going!

181 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:31:56pm

re: #175 ploome hineni

We chose the classes we were enrolled in. It was a boarding school and if you wanted to do Religious education you could, but you could chose something else.

The choices were made at the start of the school year. Parents could assist in choosing the classes, most left it to the students and counselors.

182 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:31:58pm

re: #179 tunnelrat

Yes, we can discern what environments were like then. We can even estimate the amounts of CO2 and O2 in the atmposhere at the time.

Read up on geology some time. It's really fascinating.

183 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:32:37pm

re: #170 pre-Boomer Marine brat

DAMN I'm glad I didn't have a mouthful of food!

They don't do the Folsum Street Fair in the Bible belt.

/morality is only relative to a point

184 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:32:47pm

re: #152 guftafs

I don't think man's intellectual capacities need to be further developed--they are what enabled man to go to the moon. 2,000+ years of religion did not bring us one inch closer to it. Not to denigrate religion, but think about it.

Excuse me.
Rousseau = the French Enlightenment
It's a historical/philosophical reference

/and to lifeofthemind and myself, a scatological reference as well

185 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:34:08pm

re: #166 shanec99

No it says a common ancestor... not monkeys.

You may think monkeys and many people believe that... but please quote one scientific document that says humans evolved from monkeys.

Common ancestor does not mean monkey.

I can give you this to read if you want.
But do you think that apes magically appeared on this planet as apes?
Common ancestry does show that man and ape have common ancestry, but you go back far enough and we also share common ancestry to all mammals.
There was a small shrew like animal that lived with the dinosaurs that is said to be the ancestor of all mammals on the earth today.

186 guftafs  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:34:11pm

re: #169 DesertSage

So people who believed in God and faith didn't have anything o do with the progress humankind has made over the past 2,000 years?
Is that what you're saying?

Of course religious people have contributed enormously to mankind's progress. In fact, my bet is that the majority of the great scientists and artists and so on were religious. But the contributions they made were not based on the scripture but on observation of this world. Gutenberg did not invent the printing press and the movable type by reading the bible and praying for divine guidance (although he printed one).

187 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:34:56pm

re: #178 guftafs

Well, I answered to pre-Boomer marine brat question if I thought man's intellectual capacities would make religion unnecessary. I think so and showed how powerless religion is when dealing with the real world. "Getting to god" is "getting nowhere" as far as I'm concerned, since proof is severly lacking as to where god resides.

With all due respect, guftafs ... leave this line of discussion alone

188 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:35:19pm

re: #177 pre-Boomer Marine brat

China... I remember learning about a fellow names Buddha whose ideas influenced that society. Am I wrong?

Wasn't Buddha the fellow whose ideas got adopted by Confucius like do unto others as you would have them do unto you?

Something from my religious ed days in school.

189 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:36:02pm

re: #182 Honorary Yooper

If you go back far enough in the history of the atmosphere, you come to a point where the atmosphere was reducing not oxidizing, because photosynthesis hadn't really got going; & all the iron ore bodies which are iron oxides were formed after photosynthesis had put a lot of oxygen into the atmosphere, so they think.

It is very fascinating.

190 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:36:08pm

re: #174 shanec99

The Mayans, Zoroastrians etc had a group of religious beliefs. Those beliefs told established behaviors that were good and bad and they eventually became codified as laws and morality.

Yes, and even though they were attributed to God, do you believe the Sun God came down and gave them what morals to follow.
Morals created by man for man and attributed to God to give them more oomph.

191 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:36:21pm
192 guftafs  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:36:25pm

re: #184 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Excuse me.
Rousseau = the French Enlightenment
It's a historical/philosophical reference

/and to lifeofthemind and myself, a scatological reference as well

re: #187 pre-Boomer Marine brat

With all due respect, guftafs ... leave this line of discussion alone

Why?

193 guftafs  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:36:42pm

re: #187 pre-Boomer Marine brat

With all due respect, guftafs ... leave this line of discussion alone

Why?

194 DesertSage  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:37:16pm

re: #178 guftafs

"Getting to god" is "getting nowhere" as far as I'm concerned, since proof is severly lacking as to where god resides.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. That's what's so great about our country, no one is forced to believe one way or another.

But there are tens of millions of people in this country that would disagree with your statement that "Getting to god" is "getting nowhere". Those people have a legitimate point of view in their opinion.

195 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:37:18pm

re: #179 tunnelrat

How does anybody know what happened 5, 10 or 25 million years ago? Why not 100 million years ago? Maybe 200 million years? It is impossible to prove. You are exhibiting a great deal of faith in a theory.

You really don't get science, do you?

196 Kulhwch  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:37:21pm

Ah.  <rubbing hands>

Thanks to our host for providing the entertainment.

}:)     [Intelligent Design is neither.]

197 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:37:22pm

re: #185 theatheistjew

Right... and that is my point.

Humans did not evolve from monkeys... it is a common misconception. They shared a common mammalian ancestor.

198 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:38:16pm

re: #162 Ojoe

Julian is one of the best

20 years ago, I waded through "Revelations..." twice. The English threw me, and so did some of her ways of phrasing. Definitely a mystic!

I've grown quite a bit since. It occured to be a few days ago that I should get a copy and re-study it now.

199 marjoriemoon  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:38:20pm

re: #158 Killgore Trout

Many Jainists and Buddhists are atheists and fine upstanding citizens. Twain, Thoreau, Einstein were all fine people. Belief in god does not make one morally superior no matter how many times you claim it.

I work with a man who is THE most ethical and moral person I've ever known and he's agnostic.

Actually, I believe it was Einstein who said, "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Although I don't consider that an endorsement to teach ID in school. It simply means one should know both.

200 Karridine  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:38:23pm
"In the beginning God created..."

"In the beginning God" means Source, not time, right?

No problem there...

201 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:39:42pm

re: #178 guftafs

God is everywhere & getting in this instance means an increasing awareness by an individual human being of the Creator, and his plans. You might find this quote by Thomas Merton interesting:

At the center of our being is a point of nothingness which is untouched by sin and by illusion, a point of pure truth, a point or spark which belongs entirely to God, which is never at our disposal, from which God disposes our lives, which is inaccessible to the fantasies of our own mind or the brutalities of our own will. This little point of nothingness and of absolute poverty is the pure glory of God in us. It is, so to speak, His name written in us…It is like a pure diamond, blazing with the invisible light of heaven. It is in everybody, and if we could see it we would see these billions of points of light coming together in the face and blaze of a sun that would make all the darkness and cruelty of life vanish completely.

202 Buster Bunny  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:40:05pm

Dont forget the times when religion has got things horribly wrong

The plague - killing pet animals, allowing the spread of the plague, then INTERRING family member with the infected.

The witch hunts - a case where i dont even have to specify how wrong they were, by means of trial .. evidence .. solution.

The arabian solution - nuff said

The castration of priests - in order to keep the church wealthy and allow for no inheritors of their worldly good.

aside from that .. religion is good wholesome fun, a game the whole family can play (ages 3 and up .. wafers may cause choking)

203 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:41:53pm
204 guftafs  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:42:20pm

re: #184 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Excuse me.
Rousseau = the French Enlightenment
It's a historical/philosophical reference

/and to lifeofthemind and myself, a scatological reference as well

I don't know enough about Rousseau but I think he was actually on the side of the reaction against the Enlightenment ideas formed at its peak. That this is the case is indicated by his influence on the French Revolution and the rather ugly turn it took. Not exacly rational or anything similar to the American Revolution.

205 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:42:23pm

re: #197 shanec99

Right... and that is my point.

Humans did not evolve from monkeys... it is a common misconception. They shared a common mammalian ancestor.

If you read the article I gave you, we share a common ancestor with monkeys 25 million years ago, and it was considered an old world monkey. It walked like a monkey, and squawked like a monkey.

Do you understand an evolutionary tree? Yes, all mammals trace back to a shrew like animal that lived around 100 million years ago, after the dinosaurs disappeared lots of diversification occurred, including a line that produced todays hippos and whales for example.

206 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:42:24pm

re: #188 shanec99

China... I remember learning about a fellow names Buddha whose ideas influenced that society. Am I wrong?

Wasn't Buddha the fellow whose ideas got adopted by Confucius like do unto others as you would have them do unto you?

Something from my religious ed days in school.

OH my god! There isn't enough time!

(It's not your fault. You simply asked the question of a student of Asian history.)

Bhuddism and Confucianism have different roots entirely, and different perspectives.

207 tunnelrat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:42:24pm

re: #195 theatheistjew

I still don't see any proof of evolution-- it is only a theory. I can't prove that God created the universe but neither can you prove that humans and apes went separate ways 25 million years ago. It takes faith to believe either way.

208 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:42:35pm
209 mossley  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:42:37pm

re: #23 littleO

I stated before that it doesn't matter whether ID is taught in our schools, or not. After all, who is going to teach it!
This is , however, unlaudable because opposition needed to rely upon the courts for what some consider to serious a topic to be left to the voters, or amaeters.
The citizens of this country should be allowed to tell legistlatures the laws they want.
States should be allowed to enact they, and their citizens feel are best for them.
Evolutionist are far off in their fear of common people.

I suspect you've never actually thought through the consequences of this rather silly argument. Or do you believe and respect the right of residents in, say Dearborn, MI, to teach that Allah is the only true god, and that no science be taught to students? Or do you believe the Aryan Nation holdouts in Idaho have the right to re-enact slavery, repeal the Civil Rights Laws and ban all mixed-race marriages? It's what the locals want after all.

And in case you couldn't follow the story, the people didn't want this taught. This nonsense was dictated by a school board. It was the local residents who sued to have it stopped.

And the only fear in this debate is the deep-seated, irrational fear of people who refuse to learn the least bit about science. They're afraid to think for themselves and blindly follow the rantings of power-hungry groups feeding off this fear. The world will not end and you will not go to hell for using the brains God gave you.

The Dark Ages ended centuries ago. Try to keep up with the modern world and stop trying to drag the rest of back into ignorance.

210 jorline  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:42:48pm

Good ID...Procal Harum.

211 hrhamilton  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:43:11pm

I have to confess that I have pretty much have overlooked these posts on Id versus evolutionism, since I am not too interested about the topic. I should confess that I am not too informed on either one, if one accepts several science courses at the bachelor level as being uninformed. I have no idea what ID is supposed to be, other than I understand it is an alternate approach to creation.

I would probably be more sympathetic to listening to both sides if the advocates would approach their topic with more humility and honesty, recognizing the shortcomings in each. Until then I will be sceptical.

Just so you know it, I believe that God created the earth, but since I was not there, I am perfectly willing to listen to different explanations of how the earth could have come into being. And since you weren't there, I will assume that you do not have perfect knowledge of the event either.

212 Summer  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:43:31pm

re: #207 tunnelrat

I still don't see any proof of evolution-- it is only a theory. I can't prove that God created the universe but neither can you prove that humans and apes went separate ways 25 million years ago. It takes faith to believe either way.

You really are misusing the term "theory". I hope it isn't deliberate.

213 yehoshua  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:43:58pm

How do evolutionists explain the fact that, in the concentration camps, the prisoners who gave from their meager daily rations to help other prisoners survived, while those who kept every scrap of food they found for themselves perished? This is written about in Viktor Frankl's classic Man's Search for Meaning.
Or, closer to home, how to explain the willingness of young Americans to enlist in the armed forces and thereby risk their lives? From a strictly evvolutionary perspective, self-sacrifice, courage, and love of freedom make no sense -- if survival alone is the goal. There is a higher purpose in life that could only be instilled by a Higher Power.

214 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:44:52pm

re: #207 tunnelrat

I still don't see any proof of evolution-- it is only a theory. I can't prove that God created the universe but neither can you prove that humans and apes went separate ways 25 million years ago. It takes faith to believe either way.

No, it just needs an understanding and appreciation of the scientific method. Maybe faith in the scientific method, but that would be changing the definition of faith.

215 Ford_Prefect  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:45:21pm

re: #207 tunnelrat

I still don't see any proof of evolution-- it is only a theory. I can't prove that God created the universe but neither can you prove that humans and apes went separate ways 25 million years ago. It takes faith to believe either way.

Perhaps, but in one case it takes only faith while in the other it takes faith and thought.

216 tunnelrat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:45:41pm

re: #212 Summer

In what way?

217 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:45:57pm

re: #180 transient

Darn it, I hate having to work when there's a good evo thread going!

I'll have a snack for you.

218 DesertSage  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:46:14pm

re: #186 guftafs

Gutenberg did not invent the printing press and the movable type by reading the bible and praying for divine guidance (although he printed one).

How do you know?

I'm not saying that Gutenberg was a religious man...I really don't know anything about Gutenberg's faith. But it is possible that he did have a deeply held faith and he was inspired by it.

People are inspired by faith all the time, and sometimes it does move society forward. William Wilberforce was inspired by a deep religious faith to do something to try and stop the slave trade. Faith can be a force for good as well as a force for bad.

219 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:47:14pm

re: #213 yehoshua

European anti-semitism, upon which the Holocaust was executed, existed for centuries before On The Origin of Spieces was written and published. I'm sure you were well aware of that before you tried to drag us through the mud, twit.

220 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:47:46pm

re: #178 guftafs

You need to look inward.

221 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:48:37pm

re: #213 yehoshua

How do evolutionists explain the fact that, in the concentration camps, the prisoners who gave from their meager daily rations to help other prisoners survived, while those who kept every scrap of food they found for themselves perished? This is written about in Viktor Frankl's classic Man's Search for Meaning.
Or, closer to home, how to explain the willingness of young Americans to enlist in the armed forces and thereby risk their lives? From a strictly evvolutionary perspective, self-sacrifice, courage, and love of freedom make no sense -- if survival alone is the goal. There is a higher purpose in life that could only be instilled by a Higher Power.

Survival alone is not the only goal. Procreation and survival are the goals.
It is innate in all of us, animals included to make it to procreation and give our offspring the best chance of keeping our species going.
Have you ever seen crocodile mothers gingerly transport her babies from water to land and visa versa? If survival was our only innate goal, the croc would chow down on her babies.

222 Summer  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:49:40pm

re: #216 tunnelrat

A theory is a different term in science than the every day use of the word "theory". Saying that Evolution is "just a theory" means you really don't understand the definition of the word. Gravity is "just a theory". Atomic theory is "just a theory". Relativity is "just a theory". Quantum theory is "just a theory". But you can't prove them wrong, much as we try over and over and over again every day.

What you said about Evolution is no different than saying "Nuclear bombs are just a theory". Or "my computer is just theory-based".

That is how you are misusing the term.

223 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:49:55pm

re: #190 theatheistjew

Yes, and even though they were attributed to God, do you believe the Sun God came down and gave them what morals to follow.
Morals created by man for man and attributed to God to give them more oomph.


What I believe is that wise men (Shamans... and others) who observed behaviors that were beneficial to society believed the beneficial behaviors were inspired by God.

They documented their observations about the things that were beneficial, and they taught the communities that for their society to prosper people should follow these rules.

Over time the rules that started off as oral teachings got written down and became an organized series of beliefs that the societies came to call religion.

Because the oldest wise men believe they were inspired by God then the rules were thought to have come from God and religion became the basis of the local laws.

224 Cartman  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:50:29pm

re: #220 Noam Sayin'

You need to look inward.

That may have already taken place, and the results may not have been to his liking.

225 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:50:38pm

re: #23 littleO

I stated before that it doesn't matter whether ID is taught in our schools, or not. After all, who is going to teach it!
This is , however, unlaudable because opposition needed to rely upon the courts for what some consider to serious a topic to be left to the voters, or amaeters.
The citizens of this country should be allowed to tell legistlatures the laws they want.
States should be allowed to enact they, and their citizens feel are best for them.
Evolutionist are far off in their fear of common people.

Sal: Yeah, that worked real well for Jim Crow and poll taxes.

226 guftafs  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:50:48pm

re: #218 DesertSage

How do you know?

I'm not saying that Gutenberg was a religious man...I really don't know anything about Gutenberg's faith. But it is possible that he did have a deeply held faith and he was inspired by it.

People are inspired by faith all the time, and sometimes it does move society forward. William Wilberforce was inspired by a deep religious faith to do something to try and stop the slave trade. Faith can be a force for good as well as a force for bad.

It's a pretty safe bet that everybody were religious during the 16th century, at least compared to today. Let me toss the first question back to you and ask you to show how faith (belief despite a lack of observational evidence) guided Gutenberg when inventing the printing press.

227 Josephine  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:50:51pm

re: #70 republic

But the evil that is islam is not what is taught in American public schools.

It's all unicorns eating in fields of cotton candy and baskets full of puppies and stuff.

I wonder if they teach that the koran, from cover to cover, instructs, demands of its followers to "kill the unbelievers wherever they are"?

My (atheist) daughter decided to read the Koran herself (at 13 or 14) because of what her father and I were telling her. She was convinced fairly quickly.

228 jorline  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:51:38pm

Evolution is not theory...fact,

You Keep Me Hanging On

was much better when Vanilla Fudge recorded it.

229 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:51:48pm

re: #224 Cartman

Yeah, I was just pinning it on him.

230 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:52:23pm

re: #198 pre-Boomer Marine brat

There is a new translation I'll go to the house and get it:

The revelations of.... Norwich...


Translated, with a new introduction, by

M.L. del Mastro

Burns & Oates (England)

Reprinted 1995

ISBN 0 86102 232 8

231 Ford_Prefect  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:53:06pm

re: #221 theatheistjew

Survival alone is not the only goal. Procreation and survival are the goals.
It is innate in all of us, animals included to make it to procreation and give our offspring the best chance of keeping our species going.
Have you ever seen crocodile mothers gingerly transport her babies from water to land and visa versa? If survival was our only innate goal, the croc would chow down on her babies.

Well put. There are also certain types of birds that will feign injury, making themselves appear vulnerable, to attract the attention of predators away from their young, thus sacrificing themselves for the good of their offspring.

232 Summer  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:53:28pm

re: #216 tunnelrat

In other words, in the tool we call Science, a "theory" is better than a "fact". A "theory" encompasses an overall explanation which answers tons of questions and provides tons of facts as a solution - in rough layperson's terms.

A "theory" is a wrapper into which "facts" fit in. It is better than just a "fact".

So saying that Evolution is "just a theory" means you really need to relearn your terminology in science class before continuing the discussion. =)

233 Opilio  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:53:31pm

re: #62 Opilio

It just that, after a while, these ID threads usually devolve into the bellicose, truculent, vitriolic, and vituperative.

And AWAY WE GO....

/channelling Jackie Gleason

234 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:53:42pm

re: #32 Killian Bundy

Welcome to reality. They're entitled to their beliefs like everyone else in this country. You can't stop them, you can only hope to contain them.

/we know one thing, the outcome is certain, they'll lose

Sal: But they are not entitled to cram their sectarian religious dogmas down the throats of kids in public high school science class.

235 transient  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:53:56pm

re: #217 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I'll have a snack for you.

And a stiff drink, please! Thanks!

236 tunnelrat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:54:35pm

re: #222 Summer

Would you consider "global warming" to be a theory? Why or why not?

237 swamprat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:55:18pm

At minute 53 two strands of DNA are shown to have "merged". Although predicted, there is a missing "centromere" which is studiously ignored. FinnAgain:, I was correct about seemingly convergent DNA. At minute 47.02, I learned that the wily creationists have kept those transitional fossils out of the classroom. At minute 48.10, I leaned that "theories have more weight" than facts. From the music I have assumed that Dover, Pennsylvania is somewhere in Mississippi, but I can't find it on a map. I do know that it is a rural, rural, rural, town. I lost count of the rurals. Possibly I was distracted by the banjos and blues music. The best part is when a chromosome is predicted that will have two centromeres with a endomere in the center. Somehow they claim "victory!", while totally ignoring the missing centromere. And I don't recall merging DNA as part of the Evolution Science. Could this be a hybrid? Or two existing (in one specie) chromosomes? And here is the most important question. Do we have any other examples of merged DNA?

238 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:55:31pm

re: #224 Cartman

That may have already taken place, and the results may not have been to his liking.

Possible.

239 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:55:34pm

re: #205 theatheistjew

If you read the article I gave you, we share a common ancestor with monkeys 25 million years ago, and it was considered an old world monkey. It walked like a monkey, and squawked like a monkey.

Do you understand an evolutionary tree? Yes, all mammals trace back to a shrew like animal that lived around 100 million years ago, after the dinosaurs disappeared lots of diversification occurred, including a line that produced todays hippos and whales for example.

It walked like a monkey, but it had a capacity to grow into something that was had a greater intellectual capacity than a monkey.

Please do not presume that you know anything about my academic back ground. I do understand what an evolutionary tree is.

Because a horse and donkey look alike does not mean a horse is a donkey. It means they may have shared a common ancestor... but one did not evolve from the other... they both evolved from the same ancestor, not from each other.

It is the same with humans and other primates.

240 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:55:56pm

re: #223 shanec99

What I believe is that wise men (Shamans... and others) who observed behaviors that were beneficial to society believed the beneficial behaviors were inspired by God.

They documented their observations about the things that were beneficial, and they taught the communities that for their society to prosper people should follow these rules.

Over time the rules that started off as oral teachings got written down and became an organized series of beliefs that the societies came to call religion.

Because the oldest wise men believe they were inspired by God then the rules were thought to have come from God and religion became the basis of the local laws.

They BELIEVED they were speaking for God. Don't forget almost everyone in ancient cultures believed there was God or Gods in order to explain things like lightning.

I came across this just yesterday. Hammurabi's Code Of Laws
Hammurabi was the king of Babylon around 1750 BC. He thought he had a direct line with the sun God.
Many of his laws make a lot of sense. There are over 200 of them.
In fact, they predate the 10 Commandments and 613 Mitzvahs by at least 500 years (probably over 1000 years, but that is another story).

Are you saying that God is needed for morality, or that laws are needed to be attributed to God in order to be affective?
The answer today is no. We have laws now, that I abide to and keep society moral. Some of them are based on Judeo-Christian law, but many are not.

241 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:56:02pm

re: #234 Salamantis

But they are not entitled to cram their sectarian religious dogmas down the throats of kids in public high school science class.

Gee, where are they allowed to do that?

/and let's welcome all our militant atheist commenters

242 mossley  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:57:06pm

re: #207 tunnelrat

I still don't see any proof of evolution-- it is only a theory. I can't prove that God created the universe but neither can you prove that humans and apes went separate ways 25 million years ago. It takes faith to believe either way.

There are none so blind as those who refuse to see...

If you want to be taken seriously, learn the definition of "theory". Your throwing it around like you are indicates you have no understanding of what a scientific theory is. Here's a clue - theory does not equal bad or flawed.

There is plenty of empirical evidence to answer everything you've brought up in your various posts. Do some reading. Don't be afraid of actually learning something.

243 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:57:24pm

re: #35 Dr. Shalit

Charles -

For what it is worth, the REAL argument is clouded in metaphor. it reallly comes down to faith/belief in an "UNCAUSED CAUSE." One either has it or has not. Everything else follows from there.

-S-

Sal: I updinged this because it is true; the embrace of ID is based upon religious belief. And that's precisely why it follows that ID does not belong in public high school science class.

244 mama winger  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:57:29pm

re: #231 Ford_Prefect

Well put. There are also certain types of birds that will feign injury, making themselves appear vulnerable, to attract the attention of predators away from their young, thus sacrificing themselves for the good of their offspring.

Then Western Europeans and liberal upper class Americans are not evolved. They are not seeking to reproduce, and are apt to sacrifice their offspring for their own personal gain.

245 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:57:57pm

re: #230 Ojoe

There is a new translation I'll go to the house and get it:

The revelations of.... Norwich...


Translated, with a new introduction, by

M.L. del Mastro

Burns & Oates (England)

Reprinted 1995

ISBN 0 86102 232 8

Hmmmm. Just ordered a Penguin edition.
I've copied this biblio info into a note file.

246 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:58:21pm

re: #235 transient

And a stiff drink, please! Thanks!

Will do

247 Josephine  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:58:55pm

re: #123 guftafs

...Naturally there will always be religious people, even people of otherwise excellent character...

Of otherwise excellent character?

Do you mean of excellent character despite their religion?

248 Summer  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:59:17pm

re: #236 tunnelrat

Would you consider "global warming" to be a theory? Why or why not?

No, global warming is not a scientific theory. Global warming would be a hypothesis at best.

I wish ID supporters would stop throwing this one in our faces. Not only is the line "Evolution is just a theory" disingenuous, turning around and claiming that global warming is considered a proper scientific theory is ludicrous as well. It isn't.

And it doesn't even fall into the realm of what a theory would define. Global warming would be an observable phenomenon at best - which it isn't quite yet. It has nothing to do with scientific theory. Again: Scientific theory defines an entire body of questions and solves them with a testable solution. Global warming is none of that.

249 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 6:59:46pm

re: #236 tunnelrat

Would you consider "global warming" to be a theory? Why or why not?

An entirely different line of science, but global warming, or rather climate change is always happening. The problem here, like ID, is that the idea of man-made climate change is politicised. Most scientists aren't sure if humans can even modify the climate. The people who signed on with Gore are mostly politicians and activists.

Just like ID, it's the non-scientists who are pushing man-made climate change without evidence, and with evidence to the contrary.

250 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:00:02pm

re: #44 yehoshua

Sorry, but anything promoted by PBS -- global warming, retreat from Iraq, a Palestinian state, the theory of evolution --
should not be taken seriously.

Sal: This particular fallacy is known as the fallacy of argument from association.

251 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:00:46pm

re: #239 shanec99

It walked like a monkey, but it had a capacity to grow into something that was had a greater intellectual capacity than a monkey.

Please do not presume that you know anything about my academic back ground. I do understand what an evolutionary tree is.

Because a horse and donkey look alike does not mean a horse is a donkey. It means they may have shared a common ancestor... but one did not evolve from the other... they both evolved from the same ancestor, not from each other.

It is the same with humans and other primates.

How about this? There was a time when no humans or chimps existed, but there were Old World monkeys who were the common ancestor of all the chimps, humans, and monkeys on the planet today.

252 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:00:53pm

re: #233 Opilio

And AWAY WE GO....

/channelling Jackie Gleason

LOL!

253 tunnelrat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:02:24pm

re: #242 mossley

Please do not speak to me like a child. I do understand that a theory and a fact are not necessarily the same thing.

254 DesertSage  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:02:34pm

re: #226 guftafs

It's a pretty safe bet that everybody were religious during the 16th century, at least compared to today. Let me toss the first question back to you and ask you to show how faith (belief despite a lack of observational evidence) guided Gutenberg when inventing the printing press.

I already told you, I don't know whether faith drove Gutenberg's desire toward invention or not. I don't know what his personal beliefs were.

We do know though that many people who are scientists, inventors and political leaders are driven in their endeavors by a deep seated quest for spiritual enlightenment. I'm not saying it's a prerequisite by any means, but it worked for them.
And I'm not saying that a person who doesn't have a quest for spiritual enlightenment can't be equally as prolific in their endeavors. That's why our country is the best, because we're free to pick our path and we're not forced to choose one way or the other.

255 Summer  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:03:02pm

Again, global warming isn't presented as a scientific theory. If somebody is presenting it that way, then they are either ignorant or lying.

Scientific theory covers fundamentals in science and nothing else. Global warming, if true, would have to be explained by many scientific theories. A theory would, technically, try to explain global warming - not the other way around.

So for ID people to throw this around as proof that science "doesn't work" is complete and utter bullshit. It means they really either are:

1) Lying or...

2) Completely ignorant of the scientific method.

256 Ford_Prefect  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:03:03pm

re: #244 mama winger

Then Western Europeans and liberal upper class Americans are not evolved. They are not seeking to reproduce, and are apt to sacrifice their offspring for their own personal gain.

Now now. It is not nice to make fun of those that can't keep up.

257 SayeretMatkal  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:03:14pm

re: #214 theatheistjew

No, it just needs an understanding and appreciation of the scientific method. Maybe faith in the scientific method, but that would be changing the definition of faith.

And faith in said "scientific method"...

Until somebody invents a time machine and witnesses the birth of the universe and the events leading up to the 21st Century, it is a matter of faith. Since we have no such technology, we are left here to study, observe, and have faith in our findings. IDers, Evolutionists or any other alternative believers, that's what they do. The means vary, the evidence is scrutinized and ideas are made, but... it is still faith. Bottom line.

I for one am a young Earth Creationist. I have come to my own faith conclusions by what I have studied, witnessed and observed. Would I be called un-scientific? Yes, many people would unashamedly label me that without any consideration for what I actually thought.

But what makes me any "less scientific" than Evolutionists? By labeling the opposing theory as "religious nonsense", am I not ruining the very basis of science- which is observe from all sides to determine fact? How UN-SCIENTIFIC is that of them? I'd go so far as to call it their own religion (but then I'd be labeled a hypocrite).

It's an interesting paradox- to require faith in a theory that itself would try to convince you didn't require faith, only "logic" or "science".

"Have faith that you don't require faith." - Doesn't really work out, buddies.

That's my 2 cents.

:P

258 Josephine  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:03:36pm

re: #144 shanec99

We did not evolve from monkeys... nor does evolution say so.
Evolution suggests that human and great apes had a common ancestor.
What I learned in anthropology suggests that modern humans evolved from an ancestor who lived in east Africa, not a monkey.

This interests me.

What do you (or anyone who cares to offer their opinion) think the common ancestor might have been?

What type of being could have, as descendants, both apes and humans?

Does the study of genetics tell us anything about this yet?

259 Summer  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:03:58pm

re: #253 tunnelrat

You obviously don't. You used the line claiming that Evolution is "just a theory". That means you don't understand the difference between a scientific theory and individual "facts".

260 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:04:00pm

re: #213 yehoshua


From a strictly evvolutionary perspective, self-sacrifice, courage, and love of freedom make no sense -- if survival alone is the goal.


It's survival of the species that counts, not the individual.

261 patrickafir  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:04:03pm

Good. Enough of this nonsense already — it's the twenty-first century for crying out loud.

262 mama winger  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:04:20pm

re: #256 Ford_Prefect

Now now. It is not nice to make fun of those that can't keep up.

I'm not making fun of anyone.

You are making an argument that the point of evolution is to survive and reproduce. I am saying that I see much evidence to the contrary.

263 DesertSage  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:04:47pm

re: #231 Ford_Prefect

Well put. There are also certain types of birds that will feign injury, making themselves appear vulnerable, to attract the attention of predators away from their young, thus sacrificing themselves for the good of their offspring.

I experienced that first hand a few months ago. It was a dove.

264 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:04:52pm

re: #244 mama winger

Then Western Europeans and liberal upper class Americans are not evolved. They are not seeking to reproduce, and are apt to sacrifice their offspring for their own personal gain.

Not necessarily so. In ant colonies very few ants are capable of getting involved in the reproductive cycle but they are key ingredients in keeping the species going to the next generation.

Today's human who looks at a world with limited resources and 6.5 billion people, could make a rational decision not to have children in order to help future generations.
Also, childless humans can still help relatives and friends with kids.

I have no children btw.

265 Kulhwch  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:05:10pm
re: #79 Sharmuta
re: #73 Charles

The burning of the mural is new to me, and really disturbing when one thinks of the historical analogies.

Yeah, nothing like censure of speech, text, belief, art, etc., to further one's cause, huh?

}:)     [Ah, the gentle fascists that cowardly burnt that mural ... ]

266 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:05:27pm

re: #244 mama winger

Then Western Europeans and liberal upper class Americans are not evolved. They are not seeking to reproduce, and are apt to sacrifice their offspring for their own personal gain.

DAMMIT, Mama, you owe me for a KEYBOARD!

267 Luigi  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:06:46pm

FYI: Humans did not evolve from apes. Apes and humans both evolved from a common ancestor.

268 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:06:52pm

re: #247 Josephine

Of otherwise excellent character?

Do you mean of excellent character despite their religion?

Josephine, he corrected himself a few posts later. He deleted "otherwise".

269 mama winger  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:07:13pm

re: #264 theatheistjew

Today's human who looks at a world with limited resources and 6.5 billion people, could make a rational decision not to have children in order to help future generations.

Any rational human can look at the demographics and see that islam will soon rule Eurasia, and other post-Christian countries are not far behind.

This is not survival.

270 Ford_Prefect  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:07:36pm

re: #263 DesertSage

I experienced that first hand a few months ago. It was a dove.

I have seen it myself with Quail.

271 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:07:43pm

re: #257 SayeretMatkal

Viewing stars in the solar system is like having a time machine. Again, you have to be completely wilfully ignorant of science to be a YEC.

272 BuddyG  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:08:00pm

On this 4th of July, God Bless America.

273 guftafs  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:08:02pm

re: #134 shanec99

Interesting point of view, but I beg to differ.

Religion teaches people how to get along.

It provides a grounding in morality and gives a cohesion necessary for the functioning of a modern complex society.

A society without laws based in religious teaching would be a dangerous place to live in because it would not recognize the principle of right and wrong so frequently articulated in the Scriptures.

Grounding morality in religion is a non-starter. There's an excellent lecture on that topic at aynrand.org, registration required. One of the main points was that what the grounding ultimately consists in is "because God says so". O-Kay, so if God tells us, as he did to Abraham, kill your first-born, then we should do so, because God is the source of all good. In fact, if God says, "Thou shalt kill", we should do so and it would be good, because his mere saying so is enough for us.

Isn't the much more likely explanation to the origins of the commandments that the city fathers of wherever sat down and wrote them because they were tired with anarchy and this was the best they could come up with at the time?

274 grumpy old codger  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:08:26pm

Again, I do not believe that man is capable of comprehending what God has in mind and, therefore, the story of creation is not literal, but rather allegorical. We ccan not comprehend His Truth, so He has it explained to us in a story that makes it easier for us to understand His goals. darwin discovered the process, not the cause.

275 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:08:34pm

re: #260 Killgore Trout

It's survival of the species that counts, not the individual.

/makes me want to take a sledgehammer to that + button

276 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:08:36pm

BTW, the whole "God is the only source of morality" thing is crap. I've had this debate enough times that I think I know where it's coming from. It's a claim of morally superiority to make yourself feel better but you need to look at it from the other side; you are also claiming others, who don't believe in your version of god, to be less moral than yourself. It's very dangerous ground to tread.

277 mama winger  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:08:39pm

re: #270 Ford_Prefect

I have seen it myself with Quail.

Don't kid yourselves folks. Mother animals abandon their offspring all the time. They wind up at my workplace.

278 jorline  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:08:45pm

re: #267 Luigi

FYI: Humans did not evolve from apes. Apes and humans both evolved from a common ancestor.

And that common ancestor was?

279 Karridine  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:09:00pm

re: #264 theatheistjew

Today's human who looks at a world with limited resources and 6.5 billion people, could make a rational decision not to have children in order to help future generations.

The truth, however, is that because of human creativity and rational capacity, Earth's resources are practically unlimited.

The ONLY LIMITS are limited human thoughts.

280 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:09:24pm

re: #251 theatheistjew
I will say this and only this... humans and apes had a common ancestor whom you have chosen to call a monkey to support your theory that humans are evolved from monkey.

Now if you want to believe you were evolved from a monkey... more power to you.

My forebears may also have been the forebears of other hominids but they were not monkeys.

281 Ford_Prefect  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:09:49pm

re: #262 mama winger

I'm not making fun of anyone.

You are making an argument that the point of evolution is to survive and reproduce. I am saying that I see much evidence to the contrary.

As Killgor said above:

It's survival of the species that counts, not the individual.

Besides, evolution is not a straight line. There are many failures to one success.

282 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:10:41pm

re: #258 Josephine

A pre-human hominid.

Like Lucy.

283 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:10:50pm

re: #280 shanec99

I myself descended from bears.

I always check that box when a form asks me about my race.

284 swamprat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:10:53pm
285 finnagain  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:11:19pm

re: #260 Killgore Trout

It's survival of the species that counts, not the individual.

Strictly speaking, no, it's survival of like genes. That's the evolutionary basis for limited altruism.

A parent is very likely to sacrifice themselves for their children, as their children have the greatest percent of their genes and the highest evolutionary fitness. Likewise brothers for brothers, uncles for nephews, etc...
But once you get much farther from that, questions arise. While a parent is virtually guaranteed to jump in front of a speeding bus in order to throw their own child out of the way, they're highly unlikely to do the same for any random human simply because they're part of the species.

286 Luigi  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:11:30pm

Not him...

[Link: www.corante.com...]

287 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:11:35pm

re: #278 jorline

A pre-human hominid.

288 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:11:54pm

re: #283 Ojoe

"Ursuline"

289 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:11:59pm

Have the fireworks here been as awesome as those IRL tonight?

290 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:12:21pm

re: #258 Josephine

This interests me.

What do you (or anyone who cares to offer their opinion) think the common ancestor might have been?

What type of being could have, as descendants, both apes and humans?

Does the study of genetics tell us anything about this yet?

Yes genetics have told us lots about it.
Here is what science knows about human evolution from the first on celled animal to todays human.

291 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:12:25pm

re: #283 Ojoe

I myself descended from bears.

I always check that box when a form asks me about my race.

Wonderful... and you have a sense of humor too. lol.

292 Ford_Prefect  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:12:43pm

re: #277 mama winger

Don't kid yourselves folks. Mother animals abandon their offspring all the time. They wind up at my workplace.

Why can't I tell when you are kidding?

293 lifeofthemind  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:12:54pm

re: #204 guftafs

e: #184 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Excuse me.
Rousseau = the French Enlightenment
It's a historical/philosophical reference

/and to lifeofthemind and myself, a scatological reference as well

I don't know enough about Rousseau but I think he was actually on the side of the reaction against the Enlightenment ideas formed at its peak. That this is the case is indicated by his influence on the French Revolution and the rather ugly turn it took. Not exacly rational or anything similar to the American Revolution.


Step away for a few minutes and the thread goes from Eschatology to Scatology.

guftafs The point is that the French Revolution, Terror and all. was not a reaction against the Enlightenment. It was a natural conclusion of an excessive devotion to Reason devoid of morality. Robesspierre created a society devoted to Virtue and the guillotine was seen as a rational and humane educational tool. The reaction againat the Age of Reason was Romanticism.

294 solomonpanting  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:13:00pm

And some may think today's rhetoric is harsh. From the Scopes Trial:

Clarence Darrow:

"We have the purpose of preventing bigots and ignoramuses from controlling the education of the United States."


Bryan chastised evolution for teaching children that humans were but one of (precisely) 35,000 types of mammals and bemoaned the fact that human beings were descended "Not even from American monkeys, but from old world monkeys"

How patriotic of him!

the stories of the Bible could not be scientific and should not be used in teaching science with Darrow telling Bryan, "You insult every man of science and learning in the world because he does not believe in your fool religion."

The more things change....

295 mama winger  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:13:09pm

re: #292 Ford_Prefect

Why can't I tell when you are kidding?

Ask me.

I'm not.

296 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:13:35pm

re: #55 shanec99

Rasta, you know when I was at Munro we had scripture classes, all the way up to GCE O levels and there was never a problem.

Please explain to me why religious education is so wrong if it does not force kids to worship.

Sal: Whose scripture? There's not time for everyone's. But it's all or none in public school; no one could be left out. The Old and New Testaments, the Quran, the Zend Avesta, the Zohar, the Talmud, the Sepher Yetzirah, the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price, the Kybalion, the Tao Te Ching, the Chuang Tse, the Secret of the Golden Flower, the Epic of Gilgamesh, the Egyptian and Tibetan Books of the Dead, the Descent of Inanna, the Norse Myths, the Heart, Diamond and Lotus Sutras, the Platform Sutra of Hui Neng, the Rig Veda, the Dhammapadda, the Upanishads, the Bhagavad Gita, the works of Dogen and the Bab and Bahá’u’lláh and Abdu’l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi, and on and on and on...

297 jorline  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:13:51pm

Common ancestor...the monkey fish frog...that's the ticket!

298 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:14:04pm

re: #278 jorline

A hah! The Colonel's kid!

Should have asked before I clocked out last night. What th' heck is your avatar?!?!?

299 jorline  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:15:15pm

re: #287 shanec99

A pre-human hominid.

see my 297 shane

300 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:16:32pm

re: #299 jorline

see my 297 shane

Heh heh heh.... too funny

301 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:16:38pm

re: #269 mama winger

Any rational human can look at the demographics and see that islam will soon rule Eurasia, and other post-Christian countries are not far behind.

This is not survival.

It is survival. Our culture versus theirs. Even chimps have territorial fights. In social animals, a big part of evolution is boundaries and keeping what is yours regardless if the same species lives next door, he isn't in your tribe so he represents a danger to your clan.

302 jorline  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:17:37pm

re: #298 pre-Boomer Marine brat

A hah! The Colonel's kid!

Should have asked before I clocked out last night. What th' heck is your avatar?!?!?

Do you remember Space Ghost?

Even at 54, we still refer to him as the Colonel...LOL

303 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:18:24pm

re: #293 lifeofthemind

I TOLD you not to step away!
It was all YOUR fault!

/kidding, in case you can't tell

304 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:18:37pm

re: #276 Killgore Trout

BTW, the whole "God is the only source of morality" thing is crap. I've had this debate enough times that I think I know where it's coming from. It's a claim of morally superiority to make yourself feel better but you need to look at it from the other side; you are also claiming others, who don't believe in your version of god, to be less moral than yourself. It's very dangerous ground to tread.

Religion, for the most part, is a tried and true, tested by time, source of morality, a way of life, of culture surviving across centuries, imperfect as it may be.

I, for one, embrace my religion, it provides proven life lessons.

/San Francisco values do not a healthy society make, just ask the Romans

305 opilio  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:18:43pm

Without addressing the Origins of Man, this Evolutionary Tree illustration nonetheless seems to make a statement regarding the Origins of Woman.

/

306 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:18:50pm
307 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:18:56pm

re: #64 shanec99

ID is essentially a philosophical position and should be studied as such, rather than as a scientific discipline.

The assertions of ID cannot be demonstrated with scientific tests, and until we can demonstrate the validity of ID through tests that can be reproduced under strict scientific scrutiny then we should avoid the pretense that it is science.

Sal: The existence and/or the attributes of deities aren't dealt with by philosophy; the're dealt with by theology. And anything that is intelligent and powerful enough to create the whole damn Universe could be called nothing less than a deity.

308 Ford_Prefect  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:19:16pm

Well, I am off to catch some ZZZZ's.

Everyone have a safe and happy weekend.

309 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:19:39pm
310 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:20:01pm

re: #280 shanec99

I will say this and only this... humans and apes had a common ancestor whom you have chosen to call a monkey to support your theory that humans are evolved from monkey.

Now if you want to believe you were evolved from a monkey... more power to you.

My forebears may also have been the forebears of other hominids but they were not monkeys.

Here read this, and tell me what they were.

311 SayeretMatkal  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:20:04pm

re: #271 theatheistjew

Viewing stars in the solar system is like having a time machine. Again, you have to be completely wilfully ignorant of science to be a YEC.

Oh? And why's that? Were you there when the universe started? Because, I mean SURELY you must know exactly how the distance of stars would cement our universal history theories...right?

So it's completely impossible that perhaps some intelligent being set the universe and all related material into motion with everything already occurring, thereby creating a planet that was already hit by the light of stars? Or that the light of dying stars is relatively new BECAUSE of such a creation? Am I truly ignoring the evidence? I'm not denying the vast expanse of the universe or the incredibly long distances light must travel to reach us, but I am open to the thought that perhaps it was STARTED on the same motion, not chaotic and unplanned like the "big bang" theory. So is that okay? Does considering other options make me stupid?

I suppose it's a moot point to ask- I forgot you lived back then. I guess I'll go back to my "willfully ignorant" life and let you reminisce about your childhood during the sparking of the universe.

312 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:20:46pm

re: #302 jorline

Do you remember Space Ghost?

Even at 54, we still refer to him as the Colonel...LOL

Space Ghost? No.

Maybe the problem is my age, or the fact that I quit watching TV 25+ years ago.

313 guftafs  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:20:59pm

re: #293 lifeofthemind

Step away for a few minutes and the thread goes from Eschatology to Scatology.

guftafs The point is that the French Revolution, Terror and all. was not a reaction against the Enlightenment. It was a natural conclusion of an excessive devotion to Reason devoid of morality. Robesspierre created a society devoted to Virtue and the guillotine was seen as a rational and humane educational tool. The reaction againat the Age of Reason was Romanticism.

Wiki entry

In his main writings, Rousseau identifies nature with the primitive state of savage man. Later he took nature to mean the spontaneity of the process by which man builds his egocentric, instinct based character and his little world. Nature thus signifies interiority and integrity, as opposed to that imprisonment and enslavement which society imposes in the name of progressive emancipation from cold-hearted brutality.

Hence, to go back to nature means to restore to man the forces of this natural process, to place him outside every oppressing bond of society and the prejudices of civilization. It is this idea that made his thought particularly important in Romanticism, though Rousseau himself is sometimes regarded as a figure of The Enlightenment.[3]

Despite some similarities in thought, there is little evidence that Rousseau had an impact on Thomas Jefferson and, indeed, he seems to have had little impact on 18th century political thought in the United States, which was dominated by Republicanism and Liberalism. However he did have some influence on several later Transcendentalists such as theologian William Ellery Channing and philosopher Henry David Thoreau.[4]

314 mama winger  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:21:19pm

re: #301 theatheistjew

It is survival. Our culture versus theirs. Even chimps have territorial fights. In social animals, a big part of evolution is boundaries and keeping what is yours regardless if the same species lives next door, he isn't in your tribe so he represents a danger to your clan.

My point, which apparently I am making badly , is this:

The claim was made that the purpose of evolution is twofold:

1. Survival
2. Reproduction

I am saying that in present day human populations, I am not seeing either one of those instincts at operable or effective levels. Case in point:

Certain populations are purposefully not having children, and are not exhibiting any survival instincts. On the contrary, they seem to be welcoming their extinction. I give you Europe.

My conclusion would be then, that only muslims are climbing the evolutionary ladder successfully.

315 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:21:28pm

re: #282 shanec99

A pre-human hominid.

Like Lucy.

And before Lucy? Read this.

316 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:21:41pm

re: #71 shanec99

Were they being indoctrinated or were they being asked to explore other possibilities?

Sal: It is not the business of public high school science classes to instruct their students to explore religious possibilities.

317 DesertSage  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:21:48pm

I've been in a Catholic church exactly one time in my life, it was for a funeral. I never had to stand up and sit down so many times in my entire life. It was starting to piss me off. I've also heard that you have to eat some kind of bland cracker and say Hail Mary's.

If this is what all you former Catholics had to put up with in your formative years, I'd be seriously questioning faith and religion also.

Luckily, I never had to experience such things in my youth. So my personal quest for enlightenment has taken a bright, cheerful and pleasant path.

Good luck to all of you who are still harboring resentment towards the Catholic church, I don't envy your predicament.

318 Kulhwch  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:22:08pm

re: #126 tunnelrat

Sorry folks, but I just do not believe that everything we see just "happened" or that we evolved from monkeys.

You're right, none of us evolved from monkeys and nothing "just 'happened'".

To me that is ridiculous!

}:D     [I'm finding a lot of ridiculous ideas myself.]

319 lifeofthemind  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:22:31pm

re: #296 Salamantis

Sal: Whose scripture? There's not time for everyone's. But it's all or none in public school; no one could be left out. The Old and New Testaments, the Quran, the Zend Avesta, the Zohar, the Talmud, the Sepher Yetzirah, the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price, the Kybalion, the Tao Te Ching, the Chuang Tse, the Secret of the Golden Flower, the Epic of Gilgamesh, the Egyptian and Tibetan Books of the Dead, the Descent of Inanna, the Norse Myths, the Heart, Diamond and Lotus Sutras, the Platform Sutra of Hui Neng, the Rig Veda, the Dhammapadda, the Upanishads, the Bhagavad Gita, the works of Dogen and the Bab and Bahá’u’lláh and Abdu’l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi, and on and on and on...

My vision for Iran, and her neighbors, is a place where people can come and safely preach all of those beliefs. the locals should be free to choose any or none or even two at a time if they wish. No one should be forced. You can say what you want in your house but anyone who raises a hand to compel belief should be stopped. Without the threat of violence which faiths will survive?

320 Naso Tang  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:23:02pm

I'm just curious. Why this one now? It's old news.

There are plenty more of the same in the wings, here in Florida and I believe in Texas and elsewhere too.

Could it be for the benefit of those who, obviously, either don't know of Dover, or who have never read the details of the case?

321 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:23:12pm

re: #306 ploome hineni

That's the whole problem. Morality is decided by society. It was morally accepted in Southern society to own blacks, it was morally accepted in Germany to kill Jews. These were "Christian" societies who set these standards. Unfortunately, morality is decided by our fellow human beings and is no means universal and just. I wish it was.

322 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:23:13pm

re: #310 theatheistjew

Here read this, and tell me what they were.

Please stop forcing Wikipedia down my throat.

The journals I read say hominid... and its the term I use for my ancestor, not monkey.

Chose what you want to call your ancestor... if you want to call your ancestor a monkey... then go ahead mine i not a monkey.

Mine is a hominid.

323 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:23:25pm

re: #305 opilio

Without addressing the Origins of Man, this Evolutionary Tree illustration nonetheless seems to make a statement regarding the Origins of Woman.

/

Notice that she's over by the gorilla. Obviously goes for big hairy brutes.

324 lifeofthemind  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:23:50pm

re: #303 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I TOLD you not to step away!
It was all YOUR fault!

/kidding, in case you can't tell

I thought people were more likely to say "Now Sir, put that down and step away slowly." I can tell.

325 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:23:55pm

re: #314 mama winger

My point, which apparently I am making badly , is this:

The claim was made that the purpose of evolution is twofold:

1. Survival
2. Reproduction

I am saying that in present day human populations, I am not seeing either one of those instincts at operable or effective levels. Case in point:

Certain populations are purposefully not having children, and are not exhibiting any survival instincts. On the contrary, they seem to be welcoming their extinction. I give you Europe.

My conclusion would be then, that only muslims are climbing the evolutionary ladder successfully.

True and terrifying.

326 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:24:13pm

re: #320 Naso Tang

I'm just curious. Why this one now?


Because.

327 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:24:30pm
328 Naso Tang  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:24:35pm

re: #306 ploome hineni

how do we, most of us, come to a consensus of what is moral?

If that is a serious question in your mind, then by all means just do as you are told, and you may be OK.

329 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:24:41pm

bbl

330 jorline  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:24:56pm

re: #312 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Space Ghost? No.

Maybe the problem is my age, or the fact that I quit watching TV 25+ years ago.

A cartoon during the 60's. Space Ghost had a side-kick monkey that later evolved into the co-star of the show...just kidding, kind of fit the thread.

331 Nemesis6  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:25:17pm

Amazing documentary, addressed all the points I knew, taught me a lot more. The sad thing is, it doesn't mention how in 2007, Dover went right back to an anti-science majority in the school board. Now the same thing is happening in Louisiana, pushing another law worded exactly like the Intelligent Design movement, pushing for "criticism", etc of Evolution, and it's pushed by the Creationist mayor.

332 marjoriemoon  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:25:32pm

re: #273 guftafs

Grounding morality in religion is a non-starter. There's an excellent lecture on that topic at aynrand.org, registration required. One of the main points was that what the grounding ultimately consists in is "because God says so". O-Kay, so if God tells us, as he did to Abraham, kill your first-born, then we should do so, because God is the source of all good. In fact, if God says, "Thou shalt kill", we should do so and it would be good, because his mere saying so is enough for us.

Isn't the much more likely explanation to the origins of the commandments that the city fathers of wherever sat down and wrote them because they were tired with anarchy and this was the best they could come up with at the time?

The short answer is No. But it would require a much longer study than anyone here could give you.

Abraham was the father of the Jews and his trials and tribulations were unique to him as was many of the early scholars during the time that God had a more "hand's on" approach. According to Jewish tradition, Issac knew he was going to be sacrificed and went willingly, btw. The entire episode teaches us that child sacrifice is an abomination, as child sacrifice was common to the people at the time. God was saying he doesn't require it.

333 mama winger  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:25:42pm

re: #325 MandyManners

Hi Mandy :)

I hope the kiddo had a good 4th!

I have to run - nice seeing you, sweetie :)

334 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:26:13pm

re: #306 ploome hineni

how do we, most of us, come to a consensus of what is moral?

Society is the final decider. Back in biblical days it was moral to stone a woman who was unfaithful. It still is today in many Muslim countries.
The people decide inevitably unless you are under a dictatorship or theocracy.
Morals are different slightly depending on what country you go to. And even Catholics and Baptists can't agree on condoms or the death penalty.

335 Naso Tang  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:26:26pm

re: #326 Killgore Trout

Because.

Oh. Ok.

336 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:27:32pm

Saw some pretty cool "rocket's red glare and bombs bursting in air" tonight. Can hear some private explosions going on in the distance.

My poor dog "Rocky" (four and a half pounds of thunder) is about to have an embolism.

337 jorline  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:27:39pm

re: #315 theatheistjew

And before Lucy? Read this.

What's with the wiki?

338 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:27:57pm

re: #315 theatheistjew

And before Lucy? Read this.

If you mean whether or not humans may have evolved from DNA that came from organic materials in the primordial soup, that later became single celled organisms I agree.

But no where does that say that pre hominids were monkeys.

339 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:27:59pm
340 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:28:08pm

re: #311 SayeretMatkal

Oh? And why's that? Were you there when the universe started? Because, I mean SURELY you must know exactly how the distance of stars would cement our universal history theories...right?

So it's completely impossible that perhaps some intelligent being set the universe and all related material into motion with everything already occurring, thereby creating a planet that was already hit by the light of stars? Or that the light of dying stars is relatively new BECAUSE of such a creation? Am I truly ignoring the evidence? I'm not denying the vast expanse of the universe or the incredibly long distances light must travel to reach us, but I am open to the thought that perhaps it was STARTED on the same motion, not chaotic and unplanned like the "big bang" theory. So is that okay? Does considering other options make me stupid?

I suppose it's a moot point to ask- I forgot you lived back then. I guess I'll go back to my "willfully ignorant" life and let you reminisce about your childhood during the sparking of the universe.

Using your "logic" we could argue if Abe Lincoln really existed. I wasn't there, were you?

341 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:28:12pm

re: #317 DesertSage

I've been in a Catholic church exactly one time in my life, it was for a funeral. I never had to stand up and sit down so many times in my entire life. It was starting to piss me off. I've also heard that you have to eat some kind of bland cracker and say Hail Mary's.

If this is what all you former Catholics had to put up with in your formative years, I'd be seriously questioning faith and religion also.

Luckily, I never had to experience such things in my youth. So my personal quest for enlightenment has taken a bright, cheerful and pleasant path.

Good luck to all of you who are still harboring resentment towards the Catholic church, I don't envy your predicament.

Was this just out of the blue, or were you responding to something earlier in the thread?

I'm currently (and always was) Catholic, I "put up" with the Mass all during my life and now too, and I do not " seriously question faith and religion".

I have never here "bashed" what I was not brought up with and do not understand, and it would be really nice if others extended the same courtesy.

342 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:28:25pm

re: #325 MandyManners

I don't think it's true, because it's not a good definition of evolution. Due to constant inbreeding, the gene pool of many muslims is stagnant and prone to defects. That's not evolution, it's genetic suicide.

343 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:28:29pm

re: #324 lifeofthemind

I thought people were more likely to say "Now Sir, put that down and step away slowly." I can tell.

This thread is getting boring. (scatological/censored) It's time to watch a movie part of and fall asleep.

344 BigJohn  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:28:54pm

I have commented on this before, but this is How It All Started.

345 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:28:56pm

re: #336 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

My poor dog "Rocky" (four and a half pounds of thunder) is about to have an embolism.

The 4th for me has become a holiday that I cherish and console my pets.

346 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:29:06pm

re: #316 Salamantis

It is not the business of public high school science classes to instruct their students to explore religious possibilities.

Well, duh. Again, where is that currently happening?

/trust me, the ACLU wants to know, name names

347 DesertSage  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:29:27pm

Soviet Russia under Stalin was atheistic. They killed, what.....20 million?

So I guess that proves that morals don't come from theism or atheism.

348 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:29:35pm

re: #91 shanec99

School should be a place to explore ideas, even the ones we disagree with, if only because it prepares us for dealing with adults in a complex society full of divergent beliefs.

Learning about various philosophies cannot be bad. Knowledge is good and should be embraced.

Sal: Not when the purpose of the IDers is not to seek the scientific truth of a matter, but to cynically use dishonest PR propaganda to brainwash impressionable youth so they can win a pupularity contest, the scientific truth of the matter be damned:

[Link: ase.tufts.edu...]

349 lifeofthemind  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:29:49pm

re: #313 guftafs

There is no contradiction, although you know that wiki is not gospel. It all keeps feeding back and forth the English thread of Hobbes and Locke and the Continental of Rousseau and then Hegel and Marx. Fascinating subject to keep delving into.

350 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:30:19pm

re: #330 jorline

A cartoon during the 60's. Space Ghost had a side-kick monkey that later evolved into the co-star of the show...just kidding, kind of fit the thread.

Okay. Now I get it. Kinda thought the avatar might be from a cartoon. Thanks. Now I can sleep at night.

351 jorline  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:30:55pm

re: #344 BigJohn

I have commented on this before, but this is How It All Started.

Been there, done that Big John...see 297

352 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:30:56pm
353 guftafs  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:30:59pm

re: #332 marjoriemoon

The short answer is No. But it would require a much longer study than anyone here could give you.

Abraham was the father of the Jews and his trials and tribulations were unique to him as was many of the early scholars during the time that God had a more "hand's on" approach. According to Jewish tradition, Issac knew he was going to be sacrificed and went willingly, btw. The entire episode teaches us that child sacrifice is an abomination, as child sacrifice was common to the people at the time. God was saying he doesn't require it.

Granted. But notice Abrahams and Isaacs reaction to God's demands. He did not defy God, as rightly he shouldn't as a good follower of God. So morality, the science of identifying good and evil and choosing accordingly, comes down to blind obedience in its Christian version. Pass.

354 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:31:33pm

re: #331 Nemesis6

Amazing documentary, addressed all the points I knew, taught me a lot more. The sad thing is, it doesn't mention how in 2007, Dover went right back to an anti-science majority in the school board. Now the same thing is happening in Louisiana, pushing another law worded exactly like the Intelligent Design movement, pushing for "criticism", etc of Evolution, and it's pushed by the Creationist mayor.

Louisiana has a mayor instead of a governor?

355 jorline  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:31:46pm

re: #350 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Okay. Now I get it. Kinda thought the avatar might be from a cartoon. Thanks. Now I can sleep at night.

Good night

356 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:32:14pm

re: #327 ploome hineni

what difference does it make?

The importance is that names and definitions have implications.

And I have chosen not to define myself as a monkey and I will not agree that my forebears are monkeys, and I believe that the things I read in school say that humans were not evolved from a monkey but they shared a common ancestor.

357 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:32:18pm

re: #314 mama winger

My point, which apparently I am making badly , is this:

The claim was made that the purpose of evolution is twofold:

1. Survival
2. Reproduction

I am saying that in present day human populations, I am not seeing either one of those instincts at operable or effective levels. Case in point:

Certain populations are purposefully not having children, and are not exhibiting any survival instincts. On the contrary, they seem to be welcoming their extinction. I give you Europe.

My conclusion would be then, that only muslims are climbing the evolutionary ladder successfully.

I don't think that if we had a population war with the Muslims that this would be good for the future of mankind either.
What we need to do is stop accommodating them. One thing we need to do right now is have total separation of church and state.
The other thing we do on Youtube (at least atheist like me) is show how their beliefs are full of hate and crap. Call it an evolutionary reaction in me.

358 solomonpanting  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:32:49pm

re: #159 theatheistjew

Most ancient societies have believed in the supernatural. They couldn't explain lightning back then.
But look at the Mayans, the ancient Greeks, the Zoroastrians. They all behaved morally. Even chimps behave morally to a great extent. They must read their bibles when the cameras are off:)

They know the difference between right and wrong, good and evil?

359 Nemesis6  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:33:25pm

re: #339 ploome hineni

I think Killgorewrote, that one can have a moral society without G-d..so I ask Killgore, how a godless society finds consensus as to what is moral

this discussion is not personal to me....I just like to understand the intellectual process of people making judgemental statements

You certainly don't get it from God. Morals are ingrained into human beings throughout their growth from Childhood to manhood, reinforced or weakened by the experiences we gain, and the emotional impact or lack thereof. The end result is mostly clear - A levelheaded individual with the problems and lapses of judgment that we all have. The old "no God, no morals" is not worth addressing; not after so many repeats. All I will say is, if you wanna get your morality from God, get that stone ready the next time your son calls you a doodiehead because you make him eat all his veggies.

360 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:33:55pm
361 Josephine  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:34:07pm

re: #268 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Josephine, he corrected himself a few posts later. He deleted "otherwise".

Oh, sorry. Thank you.

362 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:34:16pm

re: #322 shanec99

Please stop forcing Wikipedia down my throat.

The journals I read say hominid... and its the term I use for my ancestor, not monkey.

Chose what you want to call your ancestor... if you want to call your ancestor a monkey... then go ahead mine i not a monkey.

Mine is a hominid.

There are sources for what is in the wiki article. It is what science knows today.
What in the wiki article do you think is not fact?

363 Naso Tang  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:34:18pm

re: #339 ploome hineni

I think Killgorewrote, that one can have a moral society without G-d..so I ask Killgore, how a godless society finds consensus as to what is moral

this discussion is not personal to me....I just like to understand the intellectual process of people making judgemental statements

I think that that issue has been up and around quite a few times already, but as explained in #334 there are no complete absolutes, and certainly American "morals" were not the same a generation or two in the past either.

The bottom line though is whether they destroy a society or allow it to thrive, and the same applies to family groups. It's a kind of evolutionary necessity that is partly instinctive, but also not hard for most people to rationalize; it's just that some think they could never do that on their own.

364 BigJohn  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:34:46pm

re: #344 BigJohn

Oops. Sorry.

365 Nemesis6  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:35:10pm

re: #354 reine.de.tout

Mayor, governor, I'm not sure. I knew I might have been confusing the two, but I couldn't use the universal term "ruler" now could I? :D
Besides, I'm European. We can make mistakes like that! ;)

366 Naso Tang  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:35:11pm

re: #347 DesertSage

Soviet Russia under Stalin was atheistic. They killed, what.....20 million?

So I guess that proves that morals don't come from theism or atheism.

How many times is it now, that you have tried that one on?

367 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:35:25pm

re: #360 ploome hineni

which are what?

read on and you will see.

368 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:35:26pm

re: #92 mean Gene

After seven years of almost total focus on the GWOT it is interesting to see how people move on.
Most of the liberals I live bear have been totally oblivious about any threat to themselves or their freedom (especially the gay ones) and have been pretty much all this time.
But Robert Spencer, for one, has kept his focus.
LGF has this tag storm so you can see that the GWOT in all it's fronts is still the major focus here.
ID has only 25 threads over the last 90 days.
It just seems like more.
And somehow I expect it will be growing in the future.
I hope I'm wrong and this remains a sort of weird sideshow.

Charles exposes idiotarians to the disinfecting sunlight of list scrutiny, be they Islamofascists, apologists for Serbian ethinc cleansing in Bosnia and Kosovo, apologists for Turkish gernocide in Armenia, Holocaust deniers, Eurofascists trying to hitch a ride on the antijihaid bandwagon, Paulian connections to them and to domestic racists, global warming pseudoscience, the messianic creepiness of the Obama cult, or the attempt by the Disco Institute to shoehorn the teaching of sectarian religious dogmas in public high school science classes.

369 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:36:07pm
370 Josephine  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:36:22pm

re: #290 theatheistjew

Thanks. I have bookmarked it and will read it tomorrow (when I'm less tired).

371 jorline  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:36:36pm

re: #364 BigJohn

Oops. Sorry.

I probably got it from you originally BigJohn...love that clip

372 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:36:38pm

re: #365 Nemesis6

Mayor, governor, I'm not sure. I knew I might have been confusing the two, but I couldn't use the universal term "ruler" now could I? :D
Besides, I'm European. We can make mistakes like that! ;)

Ah! Forgiven then! Sorry, I live in Louisiana, and sometimes we feel like other parts of the country think we're all backwoods heathen Catholic rednecks, when in fact, we're not.

373 DesertSage  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:36:57pm

re: #341 reine.de.tout

Was this just out of the blue, or were you responding to something earlier in the thread?

I'm currently (and always was) Catholic, I "put up" with the Mass all during my life and now too, and I do not " seriously question faith and religion".

I have never here "bashed" what I was not brought up with and do not understand, and it would be really nice if others extended the same courtesy.

You're absolutely right and my intention was not to bash anyone, especially people of faith.

What I have been noticing by a lot of the anti-God people here is that they use the Catholic church as reason for being so anti religious. I've been very curious about why it drove so much animosity in some people, then I recalled my one and only experience with the church.

If you've followed my comments, I have always defended the people here of faith against what I saw were a lot of unfair accusations. I've been pretty consistent.

374 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:37:50pm
375 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:38:11pm

re: #349 lifeofthemind

There is no contradiction, although you know that wiki is not gospel. It all keeps feeding back and forth the English thread of Hobbes and Locke and the Continental of Rousseau and then Hegel and Marx. Fascinating subject to keep delving into.

I prefer Calvin and Hobbes, but then, I survived a Philosophy minor.

Good night.
Don't de-evolve into scatology, like I did.
(-:

376 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:38:34pm

re: #362 theatheistjew

There are sources for what is in the wiki article. It is what science knows today.
What in the wiki article do you think is not fact?


What is in Wiki are contributions by people with a specific ideological perspective. They emphasize somethings and ignore others to make a point.

Most sophisticated people I talk to say that I should avoid wikipedia for my basic research.

Use a scientific journal if you want to convince me that humans are evolved from apes and not pre human hominids.

377 amused  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:38:44pm

Hitchens takes on the "is religion a source of morality" question in a debate here:

http://richarddawkins.net/article,1752,n,n

His argument starts at about the seven minute mark. His basic argument is that a human sacrifice (a scapegoat) so that you can escape responsibility for your actions is itself an immoral belief.

378 Naso Tang  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:38:48pm

re: #374 ploome hineni

I have no idea what you mean to say

Strange; but your honesty is commendable.

379 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:38:56pm
380 freetoken  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:39:12pm

re: #249 Honorary Yooper

Most scientists aren't sure if humans can even modify the climate.

Ummm.... disagree. At least from perusing as many different climate related journals as I have found, I feel quite confident that most scientists working in climatology would agree that humans can change Earth's climate.

But Summer is correct... throwing up climate change or any other politicized issue is just a way of diverting the discussion away from the topic at hand, which is the promotion of a religious doctrine under the guise of science as a means of subverting public education.

381 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:39:43pm

re: #374 ploome hineni

I'll say it again, pre human hominid, not monkey.

382 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:40:08pm

Good night, all.

transient, I'm off to have that stiff drink for you.

/keeping a commitment of honor ... heh

383 lifeofthemind  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:40:27pm

re: #372 reine.de.tout

Ah! Forgiven then! Sorry, I live in Louisiana, and sometimes we feel like other parts of the country think we're all backwoods heathen Catholic rednecks, when in fact, we're not.

Drum roll. You're not? Which part was wrong? *smiles

384 DesertSage  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:40:48pm

re: #366 Naso Tang

How many times is it now, that you have tried that one on?

I don't know, 3-4?
Am I not supposed to use it anymore?
:')

385 mean Gene  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:40:57pm

re: #231 Ford_Prefect

I thought I was seeing that a few days ago.
The morning dove was walking in circles, putting one wing down seemingly for balance and staying on the ground.
It turned out it had been eating our California Poppy's seeds all day!
It was stoned!
We've named it ''Dopey."

386 Karridine  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:41:14pm

re: #319 lifeofthemind

"He hath but to deliver this clear message. Whoso desireth, let him turn aside, and whoso desireth, let him choose the path to his Lord."

NO coercion. Period.

You have a wonderful vision for Iran (and all other nations, by extension) Life of, and free people everywhere cheer this.

Its the fear-driven, ignorant among the rest of us, that work AGAINST it!

387 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:41:18pm
388 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:41:52pm

re: #339 ploome hineni

I know you're trying to convince me that your god will make me morally superior but but need to look at thins from the other side. When I see arguments like that it makes me wonder is supernatural retribution the only thing keeping you from being a tax cheating gay serial killer? Some people do need the fear of supernatural retribution to be good people and others don't. Who's morally superior in that scenario? The person who is good and honest because it's right or the person who is good and honest out of fear?

389 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:41:53pm

re: #373 DesertSage

You're absolutely right and my intention was not to bash anyone, especially people of faith.

What I have been noticing by a lot of the anti-God people here is that they use the Catholic church as reason for being so anti religious. I've been very curious about why it drove so much animosity in some people, then I recalled my one and only experience with the church.

If you've followed my comments, I have always defended the people here of faith
against what I saw were a lot of unfair accusations. I've been pretty consistent.

Yes, you have, which is why I was surprised to see your comment about the Catholic church.

My father was not Catholic, but he married a Catholic and all his children were raised Catholic, and yet . . . he said awful things about Catholics, ideas left over, I think, from his own upbringing. I don't know why Catholicism, of all the Christian faiths, seems to be on everybody's bad side, but it does seem to bring out negative feelings in a lot of folks.

390 Naso Tang  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:42:18pm

re: #384 DesertSage

I don't know, 3-4?
Am I not supposed to use it anymore?
:')

I suppose the principle of repeating a point is fair enough. Charles does it all the time.

;)

391 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:42:28pm

re: #352 ploome hineni

in a GODLESS SOCIETY, no Bible, koran nothing

what is the basis for deciding one behavior is moral, and another is not

How do chimps decide what is right and wrong? Innately we feel good when we do good things and feel bad when we do bad things, unless we are sociopathic, but those people tend not to procreate very well and pass along their genes because they don't care for children and are usually shunned by society including available mates.
Those in Communist Russia after the bad stuff happened still behaved in moral ways.
Why didn't they just blow everything up? Because survival is innate in us.

392 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:42:35pm
393 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:42:54pm

re: #103 guftafs

Every major scientific discovery dealt crushing blows to the basis of religious belief: Scientific explanations based on observations ultimately remove the need for religious belief. If religionists were to succeed in countering this long-term trend, they would open the way for a re-surgence of religion.

Sal: Only by reversing the trend of us learning and knowing more could they do this; knowledge, and all the media in which it was recorded, and all the people who knew it, and all the technology constructed by means of it, would have to be destroyed, just as in Ayn Rand's book Anthem electric lighting was destroyed and the society returned to candles. Religion can only re-emerge as an explanation for something once its scientific explanation, and all who know of it, are expunged. That is, ultimately, the Disco Institute's goal with regard to evolutionary theory. First demonize, then destroy.

394 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:43:05pm

1812 Overture is playing right now at the Capitol Mall. Calm down for a minute...Hell yeah...Howitzers going off!

395 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:43:41pm
396 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:43:52pm

re: #383 lifeofthemind

Drum roll. You're not? Which part was wrong? *smiles

lol. The Catholic part is the only correct part.

397 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:43:57pm

re: #392 ploome hineni

I just think you all resemble blind people trying to describe an elephant


So now your senses are superior as well? Wow, you must be fantastic.

398 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:44:13pm

re: #358 solomonpanting

They know the difference between right and wrong, good and evil?

Yes they do. Maybe not evil. It depends on how you define evil.

399 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:44:14pm

Out of many, one.

400 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:45:04pm
401 shanec99  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:46:06pm

re: #387 ploome hineni

maybe you don't understand my question

what difference does it make?

a rose by any other name


In my book a pre hominid is not a monkey... it is a pre human hominid. A different being.

Different brain capacity, different ability to learn, different ability to learn speech.

Created different dwellings, farmed and domesticated annimals.

Just different.

402 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:46:13pm
403 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:46:26pm

re: #109 Ojoe

Well ID is kind of a hybrid of philosophical/religious considerations springing from observations of nature.

It is not strictly science

It needs a bigger 'box'.

Sal: No valid scientific observation has yet been presented that would lead opne to embrace the ID religious doctrine.

404 guftafs  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:46:54pm

re: #393 Salamantis

Sal: Only by reversing the trend of us learning and knowing more could they do this; knowledge, and all the media in which it was recorded, and all the people who knew it, and all the technology constructed by means of it, would have to be destroyed, just as in Ayn Rand's book Anthem electric lighting was destroyed and the society returned to candles. Religion can only re-emerge as an explanation for something once its scientific explanation, and all who know of it, are expunged. That is, ultimately, the Disco Institute's goal with regard to evolutionary theory. First demonize, then destroy.

From their point of view they are absolutely right to target education. The churning out of generations of minds formed to doubt science would have a significant impact once these children have grown up.

405 Phocid  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:48:06pm

re: #71 shanec99

Were they being indoctrinated or were they being asked to explore other possibilities?

The "other possibilities" you are referring to are religion, not science.

406 shiplord kirel  Fri, Jul 4, 2008 7:48:10pm

This is the current, most highly evolved version of a warning I issued a couple of years ago on several message boards, including LGF:

Monkey uprising overruns Bangladeshi town.
Monkeys terrorize Indian government.
Monkeys invade Indian embassy in Nepal. (An alliance with Maoist rebels?)

There is mounting evidence that monkeys and their relatives are plotting to overthrow human civilization, almost certainly in collusion with the great apes. That's right, you think they are cute hairy little bare-ass creatures, but don't let the sly beasts fool you!

At some point in the year 2008, the Moon will align with (something or other) and that will cause a great awakening in the conciousness of every ape, monkey, and baboon... spider monkeys and lemurs, too. Then the little monsters are going to rip and sack their way through the unsuspecting nations of the Earth.

Many leading humans have been aware of this simian conspiracy for some time. Why do you think experienced ape-fighter Charlton Heston was named to lead the NRA a few years ago? Heston is gone now, but others have taken his place in preparing our resistance. Stock up on guns, ammo, and bananas!

The conspiracy seems concentrated in the Indian subcontinent. An attempt to gain control of Indian nuclear weapons at an early stage? Can faithful Lizardoids be sure that all of our posters are loyal humans? Couldn't one or more of them be the proverbial monkey pecking at a keyboard, sent here to spy out the scientifically concious resistance?

(Yes, I know that apes are not monkeys, but the great